Dr. Shanna Swan: How to Safeguard Your Hormone Health & Fertility
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.
欢迎来到休伯曼实验室播客，我们在这里讨论科学和基于科学的日常生活工具。
I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.
我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。
My guest today is Dr. Shanna Swan.
今天我的嘉宾是莎娜·斯旺博士。
Dr. Shanna Swan is a professor of environmental medicine and public health at the Mount Sinai School of Medicine.
Shanna Swan 博士是西奈山医学院环境医学和公共卫生教授。
She is a world expert in how exposure to various toxins and compounds in the food and environment impact our reproductive health.
她是接触食物和环境中的各种毒素和化合物如何影响我们的生殖健康方面的世界专家。
She focuses on how these compounds in our air, in our food supply, in our water supply, in cosmetics, even in household items, impact the developing fetus, children, and adults at the level of their reproductive biology, so things like testosterone and estrogen and the pathways within the brain and body that are impacted by testosterone and estrogen, but also how all of those things in our environment and that we put into our body impact our health on a daily basis and our long-term health.
她重点研究我们的空气、食品供应、供水、化妆品甚至家居用品中的这些化合物如何在生殖生物学水平上影响发育中的胎儿、儿童和成人，例如睾酮和雌激素以及受睾酮和雌激素影响的大脑和身体内的通路，以及我们环境中和我们放入体内的所有这些物质如何影响我们的日常健康和长期健康。
So during today's discussion, you will learn why fertility rates are indeed dramatically dropping from year to year and have been for quite some time now.
因此，在今天的讨论中，您将了解为什么生育率确实逐年急剧下降，并且已经持续相当长一段时间了。
You'll also learn why testosterone levels are dropping, why sperm counts are dropping, why things like polycystic ovarian syndrome are increasing in women, and what we can do about it.
您还将了解为什么睾丸激素水平下降、精子数量下降、女性多囊卵巢综合症等疾病增多，以及我们可以采取哪些措施。
In fact, during much of today's discussion, Dr. Swan emphasizes the things that you can do every single day and that, in fact, turn out to be very simple.
事实上，在今天的大部分讨论中，斯旺博士强调了你每天都可以做的事情，而且事实上，这些事情非常简单。
They involve certain things to do and certain things to avoid in order to limit your exposure to these environmental toxins and their impact.
它们涉及某些要做的事情和需要避免的某些事情，以限制您接触这些环境毒素及其影响。
So by the end of today's episode, you will be highly informed by the world expert on endocrine disruptors and environmental toxins, and you will also be highly informed in terms of how you can have agency, how you can take control of your health in relation to these various compounds.
因此，在今天的节目结束时，您将获得有关内分泌干扰物和环境毒素的世界专家的详细信息，并且还将详细了解如何拥有代理权，如何控制与这些不同化合物相关的健康。
Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.
在开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。
It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public.
然而，我的愿望和努力的一部分是向公众提供有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本消费者信息。
In keeping with that theme, I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast.
为了与这个主题保持一致，我要感谢今天播客的赞助商。
Our first sponsor is LMNT.
我们的第一个赞助商是LMNT。
LMNT is an electrolyte drink that has everything you need and nothing you don't.
LMNT 是一种电解质饮料，拥有您需要的一切，没有您不需要的东西。
That means the electrolytes, sodium, magnesium, and potassium in the correct ratios, but no sugar.
这意味着电解质、钠、镁和钾的比例正确，但没有糖。
We should all know that proper hydration is critical for optimal brain and body function.
我们都应该知道，适当的水分对于最佳的大脑和身体功能至关重要。
In fact, even a slight degree of dehydration can diminish your cognitive and physical performance to a considerable degree.
事实上，即使是轻微程度的脱水也会在很大程度上降低您的认知和身体表现。
It's also important that you're not just hydrated, but that you get adequate amounts of electrolytes in the right ratios.
同样重要的是，您不仅要补充水分，还要以正确的比例获得足量的电解质。
Drinking a packet of LMNT dissolved in water makes it very easy to ensure that you're getting adequate amounts of hydration and electrolytes.
喝一包溶解在水中的 LMNT 可以很容易地确保您获得足够的水分和电解质。
To make sure that I'm getting proper amounts of both, I dissolve one packet of LMNT in about 16 to 32 ounces of water when I wake up in the morning, and I drink that basically first thing in the morning.
为了确保我摄入适量的两者，当我早上醒来时，我将一包 LMNT 溶解在大约 16 至 32 盎司的水中，并且我基本上早上第一件事就是喝它。
I'll also drink a packet of LMNT dissolved in water during any kind of physical exercise that I'm doing, especially on hot days when I'm sweating a lot and losing water and electrolytes.
在进行任何体育锻炼时，我还会喝一包溶解在水中的 LMNT，尤其是在炎热的日子里，当我大量出汗并失去水分和电解质时。
There are a bunch of different great-tasting flavors of LMNT, and now that we're entering the winter months, at least here in the northern hemisphere, LMNT has their Chocolate Medley flavors back in stock.
LMNT 有多种不同的美味口味，现在我们正进入冬季，至少在北半球，LMNT 的巧克力混合口味又重新有货了。
I really like these chocolate flavors, especially the Chocolate Mint when mixed into hot water.
我真的很喜欢这些巧克力口味，尤其是与热水混合后的巧克力薄荷味。
And of course, despite being a bit colder outside, hydration is still critically important.
当然，尽管外面有点冷，补水仍然至关重要。
In fact, a lot of people don't realize this, but even when it's cold out, it's easy to get dehydrated, and that's because the air is dry, and so even though you don't notice the accumulation of sweat on your skin, you can still be losing a lot of water and electrolytes.
其实很多人都没有意识到这一点，但是即使在外面很冷的时候，也很容易脱水，那是因为空气干燥，所以即使你没有注意到皮肤上的汗水堆积，你仍然会失去大量的水分和电解质。
If you'd like to try LMNT, you can go to drinklmnt.com/huberman to claim an LMNT sample pack with the purchase of any LMNT drink mix.
如果您想尝试 LMNT，可以访问 Drinklmnt.com/huberman，购买任何 LMNT 混合饮料即可领取 LMNT 样品包。
Again, that's Drink LMNT, spelled L-M-N-T.
再说一遍，这是 Drink LMNT，拼写为 L-M-N-T。
So it's drinklmnt.com/huberman to claim a free sample pack.
因此，请前往 Drinklmnt.com/huberman 索取免费样品包。
Today's episode is also brought to us by ROKA.
今天的节目也是ROKA给我们带来的。
ROKA makes eyeglasses and sunglasses that are of the absolute highest quality.
ROKA 生产绝对最高品质的眼镜和太阳镜。
I've been wearing ROKA readers and sunglasses for years now, and I love them.
我多年来一直戴着 ROKA 阅读器和太阳镜，我很喜欢它们。
They're lightweight, they have superb optics, and they have lots of frames to choose from.
它们重量轻，具有出色的光学性能，并且有多种镜框可供选择。
I'm excited to share that ROKA and I have teamed up to create a new style of red lens glasses.
我很高兴地告诉大家，我和 ROKA 联手打造了一款新型红色镜片眼镜。
These red lens glasses are meant to be worn in the evening after the sun goes down.
这些红色镜片的眼镜适合在晚上太阳落山后佩戴。
They filter out short wavelength light that comes from screens and from LED lights, the sorts of LED lights that are most commonly used as overhead and, frankly, lamp lighting nowadays.
它们过滤掉来自屏幕和 LED 灯的短波长光，这些 LED 灯最常用作头顶照明，坦率地说，是当今的台灯照明。
And I want to emphasize, ROKA red lens glasses are not traditional blue blockers.
我想强调的是，ROKA 红镜片眼镜不是传统的防蓝光眼镜。
They're not designed to be worn during the day and to filter out blue light from screen light.
它们的设计目的不是为了在白天佩戴，也不是为了滤除屏幕光中的蓝光。
They're designed to prevent the full range of wavelengths that suppress melatonin secretion at night and that can alter your sleep.
它们的设计目的是防止各种波长抑制夜间褪黑激素的分泌，从而改变您的睡眠。
So by wearing ROKA red lens glasses, they help you calm down and they improve your transition to sleep.
因此，佩戴 ROKA 红色镜片眼镜可以帮助您平静下来，并改善您入睡的过渡。
Most nights I stay up until about 10:00 p.m.
大多数晚上我都会熬夜到晚上 10:00 左右。
or even midnight, and I wake up between 5:00 and 7:00 a.m., depending on when I went to sleep.
甚至午夜，我会在凌晨 5:00 到 7:00 之间醒来，具体取决于我入睡的时间。
Now I put my ROKA red lens glasses on as soon as it gets dark outside, and I've noticed a much easier transition to sleep, which makes sense based on everything we know about how filtering out short wavelengths of light can allow your brain to function correctly.
现在，一旦外面天一黑，我就戴上 ROKA 红色镜片眼镜，我注意到进入睡眠的过渡要容易得多，根据我们所知道的关于过滤短波长光如何让大脑正常运作的所有知识，这是有道理的。
ROKA red lens glasses also look cool, frankly.
坦白说，ROKA 红镜片眼镜看起来也很酷。
You can wear them out to dinner or to concerts or out with friends.
您可以穿着它们去参加晚宴、音乐会或与朋友外出。
So it turns out it is indeed possible to support your biology, to be scientific about it, and to remain social after all.
所以事实证明，确实有可能支持你的生物学，使其科学化，并毕竟保持社交性。
If you'd like to try ROKA, go to roka.com, that's R-O-K-A.com and enter the code Huberman to save 20% off your first order.
如果您想尝试 ROKA，请访问 roka.com（即 R-O-K-A.com）并输入代码 Huberman，即可在首次订单时享受 20% 的折扣。
Again, that's R-O-K-A.com, and enter the code Huberman at checkout.
再次强调，这是 R-O-K-A.com，并在结账时输入代码 Huberman。
Today's episode is also brought to us by BetterHelp.
今天的节目也是由 BetterHelp 为我们带来的。
BetterHelp offers professional therapy with a licensed therapist carried out entirely online.
BetterHelp 提供由持证治疗师完全在线进行的专业治疗。
Now, I've been doing weekly therapy for well over 30 years.
现在，我每周进行一次治疗已经有 30 多年了。
In fact, I consider doing regular therapy just as important as getting regular exercise, including cardiovascular exercise and resistance training exercise, which of course I also do every week.
事实上，我认为定期治疗和定期锻炼一样重要，包括心血管锻炼和阻力训练锻炼，当然我每周也会做这些锻炼。
Now there are essentially three things that great therapy provides.
现在，伟大的治疗基本上可以提供三件事。
First, it provides a good rapport with somebody that you can really trust and talk to about any and all issues that concern you.
首先，它与您真正信任的人建立了良好的融洽关系，并可以与您谈论您关心的任何和所有问题。
Second of all, great therapy provides support in the form of emotional support, but also directed guidance, the do's and the not to do's.
其次，伟大的治疗以情感支持的形式提供支持，但也提供定向指导、该做和不该做的事情。
And third, expert therapy can help you arrive at useful insights that you would not have arrived at otherwise.
第三，专家治疗可以帮助您获得有用的见解，否则您将无法获得这些见解。
With BetterHelp, they make it very easy to find an expert therapist with whom you can really resonate with and provide you with these three benefits that I described.
通过 BetterHelp，他们可以很容易地找到一位可以真正与您产生共鸣的专家治疗师，并为您提供我所描述的这三个好处。
Also, because BetterHelp is carried out entirely online, it's very time efficient and easy to fit into a busy schedule with no commuting to a therapist's office or sitting in a waiting room or looking for a parking spot.
此外，由于 BetterHelp 完全在线进行，因此非常省时，并且可以轻松适应繁忙的日程，而无需通勤到治疗师办公室或坐在候诊室或寻找停车位。
So if you'd like to try BetterHelp, go to betterhelp.com/huberman to get 10% off your first month.
因此，如果您想尝试 BetterHelp，请访问 betterhelp.com/huberman，第一个月可享受 10% 的折扣。
Again, that's betterhelp.com/huberman.
再说一次，这是 betterhelp.com/huberman。
And now for my discussion with Dr. Shanna Swan.
现在我与 Shanna Swan 博士进行讨论。
Dr. Shanna Swan, welcome.
莎娜·斯旺博士，欢迎光临。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Dr. Andrew Huberman.
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士。
Thank you.
谢谢。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm super excited for today's conversation.
我对今天的谈话感到非常兴奋。
I've followed your work for a number of years.
我多年来一直关注你的工作。
I've seen some of your appearances on other podcasts, and I got to see you speak while we were both in Copenhagen.
我在其他播客上看到过你的一些露面，当我们都在哥本哈根时，我看到了你的演讲。
I was in the audience.
我在观众席上。
You didn't know I was there.
你不知道我在那里。
But incredible stuff that you've been doing as a researcher, as a public educator, as a writer.
但作为一名研究员、一名公共教育家、一名作家，你所做的事情令人难以置信。
Let's kick off by just asking the basic question.
让我们首先问一个基本问题。
Are there things in our environment, including our food, that are diminishing our reproductive and overall health?
我们的环境中是否有某些东西（包括我们的食物）正在损害我们的生殖和整体健康？
And if so, which are the ones that you think about?
如果是这样，您会考虑哪些？
And perhaps if you could just mention a few of the more salient, maybe even shocking, but salient results that you've observed over the years.
也许您能提一下您多年来观察到的一些更显着的、甚至可能令人震惊的但显着的结果。
What was- ...
什么是-...
the kind of like whoa result or results that have really steered your attention in the last couple of decades?
在过去的几十年里，有哪些结果真正引起了您的注意？
And I'll just say what we were talking about before we were on the microphone, which is that you are a skeptic.
我只想说一下我们在麦克风之前所讨论的内容，那就是你是一个怀疑论者。
You are not somebody who walks out into the world and looks for things that could be messing up our biology, messing up our health, and yet you've found some.
你不是一个走进世界寻找可能扰乱我们的生物学、扰乱我们的健康的东西的人，但你却发现了一些。
So if you could just share with us what you've observed and what you find really compelling and important for people to know about, we can dive in there.
因此，如果您能与我们分享您所观察到的内容以及您认为对人们来说真正引人注目且重要的内容，我们就可以深入探讨。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
That was a lot of questions.
这是很多问题。
I could probably talk for a long time about that.
我可能可以谈论很长时间。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Feel free.
随意。
I won't speak until you're done.
在你说完之前我不会说话。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
No, but I want to break it up.
不，但我想打破它。
Let's break it up.
让我们把它分开吧。
So I think the first question was, are there forces, chemicals, agents in the environment that can affect our reproductive health?
所以我认为第一个问题是，环境中是否有力量、化学物质、介质会影响我们的生殖健康？
Yes?
是的？
Okay, so my answer to that is yes.
好的，所以我的回答是肯定的。
I think there's no question about that.
我认为这是毫无疑问的。
The question comes down to when and in whom and at what dose and so on and so forth.
问题归结为何时、对谁、以什么剂量等等。
But whether there are, let's just say broadly, things, yes, of course.
但无论是否存在，我们只是广义地说，事情，是的，当然。
The category that I focus on are man-made, primarily man-made chemicals.
我关注的类别是人造的，主要是人造化学品。
Although I do also include the influence of other factors, factors of choice, for example, sleep, exercise, that kind of thing.
虽然我确实也包括了其他因素的影响，选择的因素，比如说睡眠、运动之类的东西。
We can talk about that.
我们可以谈谈这个。
But let's just focus here on the chemicals, because I think that's what led me to do a lot of my research and to write the book that I wrote.
但让我们只关注化学物质，因为我认为这就是促使我进行大量研究并撰写我所写的书的原因。
And so my thesis is that chemicals in the environment, that's a very broad class, so we'll have to say some chemicals in the environment at the right time to the right organism affect fertility.
所以我的论文是环境中的化学物质，这是一个非常广泛的类别，所以我们不得不说环境中的一些化学物质在正确的时间作用于正确的生物体会影响生育能力。
Okay?
好的？
So and let me just say fertility is one area that I've focused on, but actually this class of chemicals that I'm primarily interested in are those that affect the body's hormones.
所以，我只想说，生育能力是我关注的一个领域，但实际上我主要感兴趣的这类化学物质是那些影响身体荷尔蒙的化学物质。
So those are known as hormone-disrupting chemicals or endocrine-disrupting chemicals.
因此，这些被称为激素干扰化学物质或内分泌干扰化学物质。
Hormone-altering chemicals, whatever.
改变激素的化学物质，无论如何。
There's a lot of names.
有很多名字。
But that helps you focus on where to look for the effects, because if it's hormone altering, you can now have something to really ask.
但这可以帮助您专注于在哪里寻找影响，因为如果它改变了激素，您现在可以真正询问一些事情。
Okay, here's a chemical.
好的，这是一种化学物质。
Does it affect a hormone?
它会影响激素吗？
Which hormone?
哪种激素？
When?
什么时候？
How?
如何？
That's almost laying out an experiment right there, right?
这几乎就是一个实验，对吧？
So focusing in on hormone-disrupting chemicals I think is useful.
因此，我认为关注干扰激素的化学物质是有用的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
And I think much of what we'll talk about today probably centers on the estrogen and testosterone pathways as they relate to masculinization or feminization-
我认为我们今天要讨论的大部分内容可能集中在雌激素和睾酮途径上，因为它们与男性化或女性化有关 -
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
of the brain and body-
大脑和身体的——
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and sperm and egg-
还有精子和卵子——
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
quality.
质量。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
So I'm a reproductive epidemiologist.
所以我是一名生殖流行病学家。
I got there in an indirect path.
我是通过间接路径到达那里的。
I think probably my work on oral contraceptives led me there most directly, and oral contraceptives are endocrine-disrupting chemicals.
我想可能是我在口服避孕药方面的工作最直接地引导我到达那里，而口服避孕药是内分泌干扰化学物质。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's what they're designed to do.
这就是他们设计的目的。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Right.
对。
That's what they're designed to do, change your body's hormones, your reproductive hormones.
这就是它们的目的，改变你身体的荷尔蒙，你的生殖荷尔蒙。
So it's interesting, way back when I worked on this study at Kaiser on oral contraceptives, which was the largest study of its kind in the world, actually, trying to figure out were there adverse effects of oral contraceptives.
所以这很有趣，早在我在凯撒进行这项关于口服避孕药的研究时，这是世界上同类研究中规模最大的，实际上，试图弄清楚口服避孕药是否有副作用。
If so, for whom and when and how much, and so on.
如果是这样，为谁、何时、多少，等等。
And so that was a very great study.
所以这是一项非常伟大的研究。
And coming forward in time, I studied environmental chemicals, not so much pharmaceuticals, for quite a while when I was at the California Department of Health Services.
及时地，当我在加州卫生服务部工作时，我研究了环境化学品，而不是药物。
And then I had an aha moment.
然后我顿悟了。
I was flying to Japan with my friend John Brock, who's a chemist at CDC, wonderful chemist, and you have long flights.
我和我的朋友约翰·布罗克 (John Brock) 一起飞往日本，他是疾病预防控制中心 (CDC) 的化学家，非常棒的化学家，而且你的航班时间很长。
We were talking about this and that, and he says, "Shanna, you should look at phthalates." And I'm going, "Why should I look at phthalates?" I never heard of phthalates.
我们谈论这个那个，他说，“莎娜，你应该看看邻苯二甲酸盐。”我要问，“为什么我应该关注邻苯二甲酸盐？”我从来没有听说过邻苯二甲酸盐。
Right?
正确的？
And he said, "Well, we can now measure them at the CDC, and we see they're in everybody.
他说：“好吧，我们现在可以在疾病预防控制中心测量它们，我们发现它们存在于每个人的体内。
They're in women of reproductive age, fact one.
事实上，它们是在育龄妇女身上。
Fact two, colleagues at the NTP have shown something they are calling the phthalate syndrome." And so he explained.
事实之二，NTP 的同事已经证明了一种他们称之为邻苯二甲酸盐综合症的现象。”他这样解释。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What is NTP?
什么是NTP？
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
National Toxicology Program, sorry-
国家毒理学计划，抱歉-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thank you
谢谢你
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
...
...
for using alphabet soup here.
在这里使用字母汤。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, quite all right
不，完全可以
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
National Toxicology Program, a governmental research center.
国家毒理学计划，政府研究中心。
And their job is to look at chemicals and see what is the toxicity.
他们的工作是检查化学品并了解其毒性。
So it could be reproductive, it could be carcinogenicity, it could be neurotoxicity.
所以它可能具有生殖作用，可能具有致癌性，也可能具有神经毒性。
That's what they do.
这就是他们所做的。
And so they had signaled out these phthalates as being reproductively toxic, and specifically to males, and specifically when exposure is in utero.
因此，他们指出这些邻苯二甲酸盐具有生殖毒性，特别是对男性，尤其是在子宫内接触时。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Pregnant mom is exposed to phthalates, and somehow the fetus is disrupted.
怀孕的妈妈接触邻苯二甲酸盐，胎儿会受到某种程度的干扰。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
If you don't mind, I'd like to know, is mom ingesting phthalates in the form of food?
如果你不介意的话，我想知道，妈妈是否以食物的形式摄入邻苯二甲酸盐？
Is she inhaling phthalates?
她吸入邻苯二甲酸盐吗？
Are they landing on her skin?
它们落在她的皮肤上吗？
What are the modes of entry into the body of the mom that, let's just assume it goes through the placental barrier into the fetus and is impacting fetal development.
进入母亲体内的方式是什么，我们假设它穿过胎盘屏障进入胎儿并影响胎儿发育。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Right.
对。
So in those experiments, it was through food.
所以在那些实验中，是通过食物。
But we are exposed in all those ways you mentioned.
但我们以你提到的所有这些方式暴露在外。
Every way that something can get into our body, phthalates get in there.
邻苯二甲酸盐通过各种方式进入我们的身体。
But let's come back to that.
但让我们回到这一点。
Let me go to the experiment at NTP.
让我去 NTP 做实验。
So what they did at NTP, National Toxicology Program, they fed mother rats various doses of these various phthalates.
因此，他们在 NTP（国家毒理学计划）所做的就是给母鼠喂食不同剂量的各种邻苯二甲酸盐。
And what they found was no changes in the females, or not that they found at that time.
他们发现雌性没有任何变化，或者说当时没有发现。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The female offspring?
雌性后代？
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Female offspring, sorry.
女后代，对不起。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
But in the male offspring, they found that the genitals were, I would summarize it by saying incompletely masculinized.
但在雄性后代中，他们发现生殖器，我总结一下，是不完全男性化的。
So I'll explain what that is.
所以我会解释那是什么。
So for that, I have to back up and say something you probably know very well, but I'll just explain it.
因此，为此，我必须支持并说一些您可能非常了解的事情，但我只会解释一下。
The genital tract initially is a ridge.
生殖道最初是一个脊。
It's a single ridge.
这是一个单一的山脊。
It's the same in males and females.
男性和女性都是一样的。
It's not sexually dimorphic at the beginning.
一开始并不是性别二态。
And then under the influence of testosterone, in a very specific window called the male programming window, in rats it's days, I think, nine to 12 of gestation.
然后，在睾酮的影响下，在一个非常特殊的窗口（称为雄性编程窗口）中，我认为老鼠的妊娠期是第 9 至 12 天。
So a very short window.
所以窗口期很短。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
To orient people, I think rat, mouse gestation is about 21 days or so?
给大家指点迷津，我想大鼠、小鼠的妊娠期大概是21天左右吧？
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
So for us, it'll be early first trimester.
所以对我们来说，这将是第一个三个月的早期。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Okay.
好的。
But that comes later.
但这是稍后的事。
So at that time, if they feed the mother that chemical in her food, then her male offspring are born with changes in his genitals, or more likely to, right?
那么到那时，如果他们在母亲的食物中喂食这种化学物质，那么她的男性后代出生时其生殖器就会发生变化，或者更有可能，对吗？
And so what they tend to have is a smaller penis, less descent of the testes, more likely to have undescended testicles.
因此，他们的阴茎往往较小，睾丸下降较少，睾丸未下降的可能性更大。
There are internal changes that we didn't get into in our human study because we can't look there, but the epididymis, there are changes and so on.
有些内部变化我们在人类研究中没有涉及到，因为我们看不到那里，但附睾有变化等等。
The whole genital tract is altered.
整个生殖道都发生了改变。
And the most important measure for me, as it turned out, and for humans, and perhaps for animals, is something that the animal scientists had studied for a long time, for actually 90 plus years, but had never been studied in humans.
事实证明，对我、对人类、也许对动物来说，最重要的衡量标准是动物科学家们研究了很长时间（实际上有 90 多年）的东西，但从未在人类身上进行过研究。
And that is the distance from the anus to the genitals.
这就是从肛门到生殖器的距离。
This collection of changes in the male genitals was given the name the phthalate syndrome.
男性生殖器的这种变化被称为邻苯二甲酸盐综合征。
Now, you're a physician, and I challenge you to think of any syndrome aside from alcohol, there're fetal alcohol syndrome, of course, there's a syndrome, but note what syndrome is attached to a chemical class.
现在，你是一名医生，我挑战你思考除了酒精之外的任何综合症，有胎儿酒精综合症，当然，有一种综合症，但请注意哪种综合症属于化学类别。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Just for technical purposes, I'm a PhD, not a clinician, but-
仅出于技术目的，我是一名博士，不是临床医生，但是-
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Okay, sorry.
好吧，抱歉。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But I worked on neural development for many years-
但我在神经发育方面研究了很多年——
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and then prior to that, some endocrine stuff.
然后在此之前，一些内分泌的东西。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So I'm facile with the general terms.
所以我很容易理解一般术语。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
One that comes to mind would be, for instance, the thalidomide babies, right?
例如，我想到的就是沙利度胺婴儿，对吗？
A anti-miscarriage drug that changed limb development.
一种改变肢体发育的抗流产药物。
That's a very extreme example.
这是一个非常极端的例子。
I would say in human normal development, what I'm most familiar with are the early organizing effects of androgens that convert to estrogen on external phenotype, which is basically nerd speak for during development, the Y chromosome leads to the production of a number of genes and eventually proteins through RNA, et cetera, including testosterone and dihydrotestosterone, that in the brain organizes the brain male and causes the growth of the penis.
我想说的是，在人类正常发育中，我最熟悉的是雄激素在外部表型上转化为雌激素的早期组织效应，这基本上是发育过程中书呆子所说的，Y染色体导致产生许多基因并最终通过RNA等产生蛋白质，包括睾酮和二氢睾酮，它们在大脑中组织男性大脑并导致阴茎的生长。
Or organizes, meaning it sets up the penis-
或组织，意思是它设置阴茎-
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
to then during puberty when the penis is exposed to testosterone and estrogen and DHT-
到青春期，阴茎接触睾酮、雌激素和 DHT-
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
it's a bunch of things, not just testosterone, the penis grows.
这是很多因素的影响，不仅仅是睾丸激素，还有阴茎的增长。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So that-
那么——
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
And lots of other things.
还有很多其他的事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right, lots of other things.
对了，还有很多其他的事情。
So the word soup that I just-
所以我刚才说的“汤”这个词——
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
put forward is basically saying that there are a lot of things in development where hormones set up a potential to respond to other hormones later.
提出的基本上是说，在很多事情的发展过程中，激素会在以后对其他激素产生反应的潜力。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's not that testosterone grows the penis during development.
睾丸激素并不是在发育过程中使阴茎生长的。
It does that, but more so it establishes a potential for the penis to grow when exposed to things later during puberty.
它确实做到了这一点，但更重要的是，它建立了阴茎在青春期后期接触事物时生长的潜力。
Do I have that right?
我有这个权利吗？
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Right.
对。
As far as the name goes, which is the phthalate syndrome, there is thalidomide.
顾名思义，即邻苯二甲酸酯综合症，有沙利度胺。
It's not usually called a thalidomide syndrome, but it could be.
它通常不被称为沙利度胺综合征，但也可能是。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
So you're right about that.
所以你是对的。
But it's extremely rare, and there is no chemical in the environment, as opposed to a pharmaceutical, that is given a syndrome.
但这种情况极为罕见，而且环境中没有任何化学物质（与药物相反）会导致综合症。
So this is very, very unique.
所以这是非常非常独特的。
And so I thought Wow.
所以我想哇。
John's telling me this on the plane, right?
约翰在飞机上告诉我的，对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Something in the environment that is basically having an endocrine and body disruptive effect, at least on par with fetal alcohol syndrome-
环境中的某些东西基本上具有内分泌和身体破坏作用，至少与胎儿酒精综合症相当-
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Right.
对。
Exactly
正是如此
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and thalidomide syndrome.
和沙利度胺综合征。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Well, at this point, it was only animals, right?
好吧，在这一点上，它只是动物，对吧？
Because John was telling me about the NTP study, which was in rats.
因为约翰正在向我讲述 NTP 研究，该研究是在老鼠身上进行的。
And so I thought, wow.
所以我想，哇。
I like puzzles, so my first question was, is this happening in humans?
我喜欢拼图，所以我的第一个问题是，这种情况会发生在人类身上吗？
You might ask that.
你可能会问。
It's a natural thing to ask.
提出这样的问题是很自然的事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Great question.
很好的问题。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
And then I thought, how would we find out?
然后我想，我们怎样才能找到答案呢？
And answering that question took me 10 years.
回答这个问题花了我 10 年的时间。
Okay.
好的。
And so if you think about, okay, phthalate in the mother, changes in the genitals of the offspring, connect them.
因此，如果你想到母亲体内的邻苯二甲酸盐和后代生殖器的变化，请将它们联系起来。
How do we do that?
我们该怎么做呢？
Right?
正确的？
So we have to start with phthalates in the mother.
所以我们必须从母体中的邻苯二甲酸盐开始。
So how do we know that?
那么我们怎么知道呢？
Well, fortunately or not, I had stored a lot of urine from pregnant women from a study that I was doing on sperm count.
好吧，不管幸运与否，我在精子计数研究中储存了大量孕妇的尿液。
I just got the women's urine coincidentally, if you will.
如果你愿意的话，我刚刚碰巧得到了女性的尿液。
I just thought, well, save it.
我只是想，好吧，保存它。
It's not expensive and not hard.
它不贵也不难。
Minus 80-degree freezers, doesn't take a lot of room, put it in there.
零下80度的冰箱，不占地方，放在那里就可以了。
So I had this urine saved from pregnant women, and then I knew from John that we could look in the urine for phthalate metabolites.
所以我保存了孕妇的尿液，然后我从约翰那里得知我们可以在尿液中寻找邻苯二甲酸盐代谢物。
So these are products that the body forms when they're exposed to phthalates, and you can measure them in urine.
这些是身体接触邻苯二甲酸盐时形成的产物，您可以在尿液中测量它们。
So I thought, okay, I could get that urine, I could look at the phthalate metabolites, and then I'd know what the mother was exposed to.
所以我想，好吧，我可以获取尿液，我可以查看邻苯二甲酸盐代谢物，然后我就会知道母亲接触了什么。
And based on the animal data, we have good evidence that it actually makes its way to the fetus.
根据动物数据，我们有充分的证据表明它确实会进入胎儿。
So then I thought, okay, then maybe there's a change in the babies.
然后我想，好吧，也许婴儿身上会有变化。
So then I had to get the babies.
所以我必须要带上孩子。
So fortunately, I had done this study on pregnant couples, pregnant women and their partners, and I was able to call them and say, "Would you come in and let us measure your babies' genitals?" Right?
幸运的是，我对怀孕夫妇、孕妇及其伴侣进行了这项研究，我能够打电话给他们并说：“您能进来让我们测量您婴儿的生殖器吗？”正确的？
And-
还有——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
How willing were parents to let you do that?
父母有多愿意让你这样做？
That seems-
看来——
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
They were okay.
他们都没事。
Most of them were okay with that.
他们中的大多数人对此表示同意。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Were they?
他们是吗？
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Well, they trusted us.
嗯，他们信任我们。
They had been-
他们曾经是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sure
当然可以
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
...
...
in a study with us, and we were reputable.
与我们一起研究，我们是有信誉的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Those babies were still-
那些婴儿仍然——
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Young
年轻
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
yeah
是的
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
...
...
but not newborns.
但不是新生儿。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
So this was a while later.
所以这是一段时间之后的事了。
The babies that we actually got were, on average, I think about 12 months old.
我认为我们实际得到的婴儿平均年龄约为 12 个月。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
So not ideal maybe because the rats had been measured at birth, the rat genitals had been, but that's what we could do at that time.
所以并不理想，也许是因为老鼠在出生时就被测量过，老鼠的生殖器也被测量过，但这就是我们当时能做的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, the reason I ask is there's always the potential for ongoing phthalate exposure-
是的，我问的原因是总是有可能持续接触邻苯二甲酸盐 -
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Sure
当然可以
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
to the newborn.
给新生儿。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But I suppose in either case, you're able to draw some potential link between, or potentially draw a link, I have to be careful with my language there, between phthalate exposure in utero and ex utero and these external biomarkers.
但我想无论哪种情况，你都能够在子宫内和子宫外的邻苯二甲酸盐暴露与这些外部生物标志物之间建立一些潜在的联系，或者可能建立一个联系，我必须小心我的语言。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Given that the critical window is quite short and quite early-- By the way, let me just say, when the rats, they did a lot of work on this critical window, and when the rat moms were exposed before day nine, it did nothing.
鉴于关键窗口很短而且很早——顺便说一句，我只想说，当老鼠在这个关键窗口上做了很多工作，而当老鼠妈妈在第九天之前暴露时，它什么也没做。
And when they were exposed after day 12, it did nothing.
当他们在第 12 天后暴露时，却没有任何作用。
So it was only the exposure during that critical window is very delicate, and it's, by the way, true of the brain as well.
因此，只有在关键窗口期间的暴露是非常微妙的，顺便说一句，对于大脑来说也是如此。
So teasing out what is the critical window is one of the challenges that we have when we work with these chemicals.
因此，弄清楚什么是关键窗口是我们在使用这些化学品时面临的挑战之一。
So I wasn't so much worried about exposure in the delivery room and in their feed as in the first year of life because I knew that it was unlikely to change these measures.
因此，我不像出生第一年那样担心产房和饲料中的暴露，因为我知道这些措施不太可能改变。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Very important point.
非常重要的一点。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Do other things-
做其他事情——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
...
...
maybe, but not these measures.
也许吧，但不是这些措施。
So then the question became what you were asking is, what do we measure?
那么问题就变成了你要问的，我们衡量什么？
What do we actually measure?
我们实际上测量什么？
And if you think about a newborn rat or mouse, their genitals are pretty small.
如果你考虑一下新生的大鼠或小鼠，它们的生殖器非常小。
And it's very difficult to know exactly how that corresponds to the human genital system and what you see at birth-
很难准确地知道它与人类生殖系统的对应关系以及你出生时所看到的情况 -
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Different enough animal, yeah.
足够不同的动物，是的。
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
...
...
when you spread a boy's legs, right?
当你张开男孩的双腿时，对吗？
And so I got a pediatrician in Los Angeles who worked with me on how to make that translation and how to do this exam.
因此，我在洛杉矶找到了一位儿科医生，他和我一起研究如何进行翻译以及如何进行这项考试。
And that took us quite a while because we really wanted to come as close as we could.
这花了我们很长时间，因为我们真的想尽可能接近。
What was clear was that the anus part of it was easy.
很明显，肛门部分很容易。
You go to the center of the anus, so that was easy.
你去到肛门的中心，所以这很容易。
Then what's the other landmark?
那么另一个地标是什么？
What's the genital landmark?
生殖器标志是什么？
So it turns out there are in males, two, and in females, there are two as well.
事实证明，男性中有两个，女性也有两个。
But let's just talk about males.
但我们只谈谈男性。
So for males, the best place to measure, and actually closest to the rat measurement, is the place where the tissue changes, where the scrotum inserts.
因此，对于雄性来说，最好的测量位置，实际上最接近大鼠测量的位置，是组织发生变化的地方，即阴囊插入的地方。
And that goes from rugated to smooth tissue, and at that point, it's pretty clear, pretty easy to measure.
从皱褶组织到光滑组织，在这一点上，它非常清晰，非常容易测量。
And that was the anoscrotal distance.
这就是肛阴距离。
And the other measurement we took was the anopenile distance, and that was the anterior insertion of the penis.
我们进行的另一个测量是阴茎距离，即阴茎的前插入度。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The part closest to the body.
最接近身体的部分。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
The closest to the head.
距离头部最近的。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Closest to the head.
最接近头部。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yeah.
是的。
And that was not so obvious because you don't have a change in tissue there.
这并不那么明显，因为那里的组织没有变化。
So where exactly do you put your caliper?
那么你到底把卡尺放在哪里呢？
And we had a lot of discussion about, do you press down?
我们进行了很多讨论，你会按下按钮吗？
Do you what?
你做什么？
Where exactly do you make that mark?
你到底在哪里做这个标记？
And actually, the anoscronal is the measurement with the least variance because you can measure it most precisely.
实际上，肛周测量是方差最小的测量，因为您可以最精确地测量它。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
But the anopenal is another measurement.
但 anopenal 是另一种测量方法。
And then you can do something similar in females and we did that, but we maybe don't have to go into that now.
然后你可以对女性做类似的事情，我们也这么做了，但我们现在也许不必讨论这个问题。
So we designed this exam, and we did a lot of work to make sure it was repeatable across examiners.
因此，我们设计了这项考试，并做了很多工作来确保它可以在考官之间重复。
And what we finally did was bring the mothers in, bring the babies in, and got three measurements.
我们最终所做的就是让母亲们进来，让婴儿们进来，并进行三项测量。
And then on every 10th baby, we got an independent examiner to get three measurements, so we could look at within and between examiner variation.
然后，每有 10 个婴儿，我们就会请一位独立检查员进行三次测量，这样我们就可以了解检查员内部和之间的差异。
You understand this is the first time this had been done this way in humans.
你知道这是第一次在人类身上以这种方式进行。
There was a Mexican study that tried to do this, and I never learned very much about it.
有一项墨西哥研究试图做到这一点，但我对此了解不多。
And I was excited that they had done this, but I'm not sure how it relates to this.
我很高兴他们做到了这一点，但我不确定它与此有何关系。
So I just mention that out of honesty.
所以我只是出于诚实才提到这一点。
Somebody in Mexico did this.
墨西哥有人这么做了。
But to my knowledge, this is the first time it was used as a toxicological measure in humans.
但据我所知，这是第一次将其用作人类毒理学措施。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
So we did that study.
所以我们做了这项研究。
We related those measurements to what CDC had measured in the urine of our women, collected while they were pregnant, and we found the phthalate syndrome.
我们将这些测量结果与疾病预防控制中心在我们妇女怀孕期间收集的尿液中测量的结果联系起来，我们发现了邻苯二甲酸盐综合症。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Could you explain what the correlation was between phthalate metabolite levels, which is, I believe-
您能否解释一下邻苯二甲酸酯代谢物水平之间的相关性，我认为 -
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Not by number because I don't remember it anymore.
不是按数字，因为我不记得了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
But there was a significant-- Let's just take the AGD.
但有一个重要的问题——让我们以 AGD 为例。
The AGD of mothers who had higher levels of three, the most anti-androgenic phthalates, I'll tell you what those are in a minute, had significantly shorter anogenital distance.
具有较高水平的三种抗雄激素邻苯二甲酸盐（我稍后会告诉你它们是什么）的母亲的 AGD 的肛门生殖器距离明显较短。
And then I have to say that, which I haven't said and should have, that anogenital distance is sexually dimorphic.
然后我不得不说，我没有说过但应该说的是，肛门生殖器距离是两性异形的。
So it tends to be 50% to 100% longer in males than females.
因此，男性的寿命往往比女性长 50% 到 100%。
That makes sense if you think about what's going in that space.
如果您考虑一下该空间中发生的事情，这是有道理的。
There's a lot of real estate
有很多房地产
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
...
...
in males between the anus and let's say the penis, penile insertion, much more than in females.
在男性中，肛门和阴茎之间的阴茎插入比女性多得多。
So it's natural that that will be longer.
所以自然会更长。
I began doing some work looking at other species, and it turns out that that's true in all mammalian species except two.
我开始做一些研究其他物种的工作，结果发现除了两种之外，所有哺乳动物物种都是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
And one is the hyena.
其中之一就是鬣狗。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, right.
哦，对了。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
And one is the elephant.
其中之一就是大象。
So in the hyena, I'm just saying this because you would be amused by it, I think.
所以对于鬣狗来说，我这么说只是因为你会觉得好笑，我想。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, I-
嗯，我——
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
You know about hyenas?
你了解鬣狗吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I do.
我愿意。
I know more about hyena genitalia than I'd like to admit.
我对鬣狗生殖器的了解比我愿意承认的还要多。
And I can tell you why after you educate us, but I'll keep my explanation brief.
在您教育我们之后我可以告诉您原因，但我的解释会很简短。
But I'm very familiar with hyena genitalia.
但我对鬣狗的生殖器非常熟悉。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
So I know Steven Glickman.
所以我认识史蒂文·格利克曼。
You might know him, too.
你可能也认识他。
He works in Berkeley with-
他在伯克利与-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, he was my instructor when I was a graduate student at Cal.
是的，当我在加州大学读研究生时，他是我的导师。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Oh my gosh.
天哪。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I used to run in Tilden Park, I suppose I'll tell it now, and there was a colony of wild hyenas.
我曾经在蒂尔登公园跑步，我想我现在就告诉你，那里有一群野生鬣狗。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But they were behind chain link.
但他们在链环后面。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's actually a favorite hike of mine up the Strawberry Canyon Trail.
这实际上是我最喜欢的草莓峡谷步道徒步旅行。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yeah.
是的。
I did that trail.
我做了那条路。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
A good friend of mine, Brian Prendergast, who's now a professor at the University of Chicago, worked on the prairie voles that were also housed at that facility.
我的一个好朋友布赖恩·普伦德加斯特（Brian Prendergast）现在是芝加哥大学的教授，他对同样饲养在该设施中的草原田鼠进行了研究。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And a fun thing to do was to go see the hyenas with Steve.
一件有趣的事情就是和史蒂夫一起去看鬣狗。
They're brutally dangerous animals.
它们是极其危险的动物。
And Steve has tons of stories about them.
史蒂夫有很多关于他们的故事。
We should probably resist our temptation to-
我们也许应该抵制诱惑——
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Go into it.
进去吧。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
spiral into that.
螺旋进入那个。
Maybe sometime I'll do a little evening chat podcast where I tell Steve Glickman stories.
也许有一天我会做一个小型的晚间聊天播客，讲述史蒂夫·格利克曼的故事。
He's a delightful person.
他是一个令人愉快的人。
And yeah, let's just say this, the female hyenas have clitorises larger than some of the male hyena penises, and those females give birth through those clitorises.
是的，我们就这么说吧，雌性鬣狗的阴蒂比一些雄性鬣狗的阴茎大，而这些雌性鬣狗是通过这些阴蒂分娩的。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
As we both know.
我们都知道。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
So you will not be surprised to know that the female AGD is longer than the male.
因此，当您知道女性 AGD 比男性长时，您不会感到惊讶。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Because they're heavily androgenized.
因为它们的雄激素水平很高。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
As I recall, by androstenedione as a-
我记得，雄烯二酮作为-
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Actually, I don't-
事实上，我不-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
...
...
know that.
知道这一点。
But-
但是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It became popular during the era of steroids in professional baseball because androstenedione was being used pretty frequently in baseball at that time.
它在职业棒球的类固醇时代变得流行，因为当时雄烯二酮在棒球中被频繁使用。
Anyway, we could go down the spiral of-
无论如何，我们可以走下螺旋——
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
hyenas.
鬣狗。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
But also, in terms of behavior, the female is the alpha.
而且，就行为而言，女性是阿尔法。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They eat first.
他们先吃饭。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They're physically and hierarchically dominant-
他们在身体上和等级上都占主导地位——
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in hyenas.
在鬣狗中。
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
So it's really interesting, isn't it, that they would have a longer, more masculine anogenital distance.
所以这真的很有趣，不是吗，他们的肛门生殖器距离更长、更男性化。
Elephants, we won't go into now, but they're kind of midway in many things, including their about equal-
大象，我们现在不讨论，但它们在很多事情上都处于中间状态，包括它们大约平等——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
...
...
anogenital distance in males and females.
男性和女性的肛门生殖器距离。
Other than that, humans and other species, male anogenital distance is 50% to 100% longer.
除此之外，人类和其他物种的男性肛门生殖器距离要长50%到100%。
However, so three phthalates, diethylhexyl phthalate, DEHP, dibutyl phthalate-
然而，三种邻苯二甲酸酯，即邻苯二甲酸二乙基己酯、DEHP、邻苯二甲酸二丁酯——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
...
...
DBP, and butyl benzyl phthalate, BBzP, are the most anti-androgenic testosterone-lowering phthalates, and those are the ones that were associated with a shorter anogenital distance in males.
DBP 和邻苯二甲酸丁基苄酯 (BBzP) 是最具抗雄激素作用的降低睾酮水平的邻苯二甲酸盐，它们与男性肛门生殖器距离较短有关。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In human males.
在人类男性中。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Human males and animal.
人类男性和动物。
So we replicated that animal study in humans.
所以我们在人类身上重复了这项动物研究。
And then, because you know this is how it is in science, I had to do it all again.
然后，因为你知道科学就是这样，所以我不得不再做一遍。
Right?
正确的？
So I started a whole new study, and that study is still going on.
所以我开始了一项全新的研究，这项研究仍在继续。
The children are still being followed.
孩子们仍被跟踪。
I think we started in 2012.
我想我们是从 2012 年开始的。
The first paper on anogenital distance came out in 2005.
第一篇关于肛门生殖器距离的论文发表于 2005 年。
Had a pretty big impact.
产生了相当大的影响。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So these are studies where you're looking at the anogenital distance in relatively newborn humans, then tracking that distance.
因此，在这些研究中，您会观察相对新生儿的肛门生殖器距离，然后跟踪该距离。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
No, that's different.
不，那是不同的。
Tracking is another study.
追踪是另一项研究。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Okay.
好的。
This is just two studies on demonstrating the Thali syndrome-
这只是两项证明塔利综合症的研究——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
...
...
in human males.
在人类男性中。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Okay.
好的。
So the first one I described, the second one, the replication.
我描述的第一个是复制，第二个是复制。
And the second one is the one that's going on still.
第二个是仍在进行的一个。
And what it does to their reproductive function, we don't know.
我们不知道它对它们的生殖功能有何影响。
The kids are only 12 years old now, so we would like to know that, and we will know that.
孩子们现在只有 12 岁，所以我们想知道这一点，我们也会知道这一点。
Okay, but I have another answer for you about that.
好的，但我对此有另一个答案。
So we started the second study, and the second study, which is called TIDES, which is the Infant Development and Environment Study.
所以我们开始了第二项研究，第二项研究叫做TIDES，即婴儿发育和环境研究。
By the way, these are both in four cities in the United States.
顺便说一句，这些都在美国的四个城市。
And there we did it right.
我们做得对。
So we got the urine in the first, early urine because we knew that could be important.
所以我们在第一次、早期尿液中得到了尿液，因为我们知道这可能很重要。
We didn't have that option in the first one.
我们在第一个中没有这个选项。
Remember, those urine samples were accidental.
请记住，这些尿液样本是偶然的。
We got them when we could, right?
我们尽可能得到它们，对吗？
And we got repeated urines, one in each trimester, to look at the effects in different trimesters.
我们进行了重复的尿液检查，每个妊娠期一次，以观察不同妊娠期的影响。
And then we examined the babies at birth, which is what the rats-- So we came much closer to replicating the rodent study.
然后我们检查了出生时的婴儿，这就是老鼠的情况——所以我们更接近于复制啮齿类动物的研究。
And we saw it again.
我们又看到了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd like to take a quick break and thank our sponsor, AG1.
我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商 AG1。
AG1 is an all-in-one vitamin mineral probiotic drink with adaptogens.
AG1 是一种含有适应原的一体化维生素矿物质益生菌饮料。
I've been taking AG1 daily since 2012, so I'm delighted that they're sponsoring this podcast.
自 2012 年以来，我每天都服用 AG1，所以我很高兴他们赞助这个播客。
The reason I started taking AG1, and the reason I still take AG1 once and often twice a day, is because it is the highest quality and most complete foundational nutritional supplement.
我开始服用 AG1 的原因，以及我仍然每天服用一次和经常两次 AG1 的原因，是因为它是最高质量和最完整的基础营养补充剂。
What that means is that AG1 ensures that you're getting all the necessary vitamins, minerals, and other micronutrients to form a strong foundation for your daily health.
这意味着 AG1 可确保您获得所有必需的维生素、矿物质和其他微量营养素，为您的日常健康奠定坚实的基础。
AG1 also has probiotics and prebiotics that support a healthy gut microbiome.
AG1 还含有支持健康肠道微生物群的益生菌和益生元。
Your gut microbiome consists of trillions of microorganisms that line your digestive tract and impact things such as your immune system status, your metabolic health, your hormone health, and much more.
您的肠道微生物组由数万亿微生物组成，这些微生物排列在您的消化道中，并影响您的免疫系统状态、代谢健康、激素健康等。
So I've consistently found that when I take AG1 daily, my digestion is improved, my immune system is more robust, I rarely get sick, and my mood and mental focus are at their best.
所以我一直发现，当我每天服用 AG1 时，我的消化得到改善，我的免疫系统更强大，我很少生病，而且我的情绪和精神焦点都处于最佳状态。
In fact, if I could take just one supplement, that supplement would be AG1.
事实上，如果我只能服用一种补充剂，那么该补充剂就是 AG1。
If you'd like to try AG1, you can go to drinkag1.com/huberman to claim a special offer.
如果您想尝试 AG1，可以访问 Drinkag1.com/huberman 申请特别优惠。
For this month only, November 2024, AG1 is giving away one free month supply of omega-3 fatty acids from fish oil, in addition to the usual welcome kit of five free travel packs and a year's supply of vitamin D3 K2 with your order.
仅在 2024 年 11 月这个月，AG1 将免费赠送一个月的来自鱼油的 omega-3 脂肪酸，此外，您的订单还会赠送通常的欢迎套装（包括五个免费旅行包和一年的维生素 D3 K2）。
Omega-3 fatty acids are critical for brain health, mood, cognition, and much more.
Omega-3 脂肪酸对于大脑健康、情绪、认知等至关重要。
Again, go to drinkag1.com/huberman to claim this special offer.
请再次访问 Drinkag1.com/huberman 领取此特别优惠。
More phthalate exposure equates to shorter anogenital distance in males.
接触更多的邻苯二甲酸盐意味着男性的肛门生殖器距离更短。
It was approaching the distribution in females.
它正在接近女性的分布。
It sounds like the distributions moved more closely together.
听起来这些发行版的联系更加紧密了。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yes.
是的。
Although it wasn't the females that moved.
虽然移动的并不是雌性。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sorry.
抱歉。
The male distribution-
男性分布——
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Became more like the female
变得更像女性了
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
became more-
变得更加——
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Right.
对。
Feminized
女性化
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I was going to say feminized, but more female-like in its-
我想说的是女性化，但更像女性——
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yeah.
是的。
But these boys also had smaller penises, less descent of the testes, smaller scrotums.
但这些男孩的阴茎也较小，睾丸下降较少，阴囊也较小。
So they were smaller.
所以它们更小。
Everything was in their genital areas.
一切都在他们的生殖器区域。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Are all the secondary sex characteristics of puberty in males, Adam's apple, facial hair growth, thickening of the vocal cords, therefore lowering the voice, et cetera, are those all later activating effects of hormones, or are there precursors to those that are present in males?
男性青春期的所有第二性征，喉结、胡须生长、声带增厚、声音变低等等，都是后来荷尔蒙的激活作用吗？还是说男性的这些特征有先兆？
Because in mice, as I recall, I couldn't tell you, we call it in the laboratory, people always chuckle at this, but it's like sexing the animals when you look to determine if it's a male or female.
因为在老鼠身上，我记得，我不能告诉你，我们在实验室里这么称呼它，人们总是对此嗤之以鼻，但这就像当你想确定它是雄性还是雌性时对动物进行性别鉴定一样。
When they're really young, you have to look carefully at first, right?
当他们真的很年轻的时候，你首先得仔细看，对吧？
And then you get pretty good at it.
然后你就会变得非常擅长。
As they get older, it gets easier.
随着年龄的增长，事情变得更容易。
But when the mice are feet down, back up, you can't really tell.
但当老鼠的脚向下或向后抬起时，你无法真正分辨出来。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You can't really tell.
你真的说不出来。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
As the mice get older, their testicles become visible in the males-
随着小鼠年龄的增长，雄性小鼠的睾丸变得可见——
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
even from above.
即使从上面看。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But as far as I know, there aren't really external markers.
但据我所知，并没有真正的外部标记。
So you may have found the one truly external biomarker of maleness.
因此，您可能已经找到了一种真正的男性外在生物标志物。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Of maleness.
属于男性气概。
And so I do want to say one thing about females, because then that'll lead me to my conclusion about the role of this measure.
所以我确实想就女性说一件事，因为这会让我得出关于这项措施的作用的结论。
So if the mother is exposed to more testosterone than expected, you might expect that her female offspring would have a more male anogenital distance.
因此，如果母亲接触的睾酮水平高于预期，您可能会认为她的女性后代的男性肛门生殖器距离会更长。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is that the case?
是这样吗？
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So it's a bidirectional effect.
所以这是一个双向效应。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Can we also presume that if the mother either secretes or is exposed to more androgen, then the males can become hyper-male?
我们是否还可以假设，如果母亲分泌或接触更多的雄激素，那么雄性就会变得超级雄性？
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
No. I don't know what that would be.
不，我不知道那会是什么。
We never saw anything that would be hyper-male.
我们从未见过任何超级男性的东西。
So the yes I said to you was the result of a study where we looked at the girls born to women with PCOS.
所以我对你说的“是”是一项研究的结果，我们对患有多囊卵巢综合症的女性所生的女孩进行了观察。
So women with PCOS, as you know, have excess testosterone.
如您所知，患有多囊卵巢综合症的女性睾丸激素过多。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Polycystic ovarian-
多囊卵巢-
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Cystic.
囊性。
Oh, sorry.
哦，抱歉。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Polycystic ovarian syndrome.
多囊卵巢综合症。
No, that's okay.
不，没关系。
We've talked about it a little bit before on the podcast.
我们之前在播客上讨论过这个问题。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
My understanding is it's associated with elevated levels of androgens.
我的理解是它与雄激素水平升高有关。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Mm-hmm That's right.
嗯嗯 没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In females.
在女性中。
Yeah
是啊
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
And women often have facial hair and you know.
你知道，女性经常有面部毛发。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Not just the moms, but the people, the women with PCOS-
不仅仅是妈妈们，还有人们，患有多囊卵巢综合症的女性——
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
have elevated androgens.
雄激素升高。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We're not talking about pregnant moms anymore.
我们不再谈论怀孕的妈妈了。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
And so in our study population, we did a search for women who had diagnoses of PCOS and took that as a marker of higher testosterone exposure and then looked at the girls, and yes, those girls had a longer, quote, "more masculine anogenital distance."
因此，在我们的研究人群中，我们对被诊断出患有多囊卵巢综合症的女性进行了搜索，并将其作为睾丸激素暴露水平较高的标志，然后观察了这些女孩，是的，这些女孩的肛门生殖器距离更长，引用的话，“更男性化的肛门生殖器距离”。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What age group were you looking at with PCOS?
您关注的是哪个年龄段的人患有多囊卵巢综合症？
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
In the infants.
在婴儿中。
Oh, the PCOS was at pregnancy, at the time they were pregnant or before.
哦，多囊卵巢综合症是在怀孕的时候，在怀孕的时候或者之前。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So presumably people between somewhere in their 20s out to their 40s.
所以大概是20多岁到40多岁的人。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So adult human females who have PCOS, we know they have higher levels of androgens, but they also have more male-like anogenital distance.
因此，患有多囊卵巢综合症的成年女性，我们知道她们的雄激素水平较高，但她们的肛门生殖器距离也更接近男性。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
They do not.
他们没有。
Their daughters do.
他们的女儿们也这么做。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Their daughters do.
他们的女儿们也这么做。
Thank you for that clarification.
谢谢你的澄清。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yes.
是的。
Their daughters.
他们的女儿。
And so put this together, this measure is a look inside the womb at the androgen level that the fetus is exposed to at that time, which is amazing because you can't go in there without disturbing-- You can't.
所以把这些放在一起，这个措施是观察子宫内胎儿当时所接触的雄激素水平，这很神奇，因为你不能在不打扰的情况下进入子宫——你不能。
And so this is very early first trimester.
所以现在是妊娠早期的早期阶段。
You can't even get fluid and so on.
你甚至无法获得液体等等。
So this tells you, this is like a readout-
所以这告诉你，这就像一个读数——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
...
...
of what was in the fluid at the time.
当时液体中的物质。
So then your next question was, what does this mean for later fertility?
那么你的下一个问题是，这对以后的生育意味着什么？
Yes?
是的？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
What is the impact of this early androgen exposure into female offspring, or let's just say reduction in functional androgen exposure to male offspring?
这种早期雄激素暴露对雌性后代有什么影响，或者我们只是说减少雄性后代的功能性雄激素暴露有何影响？
The reason I'm using this loop-de-loop language is, as you probably know, but for the audience, not trying to complicate things here, but a lot of the masculinizing effects of hormones in fetal development is actually testosterone that's converted into estrogen, so it can get pretty tricky.
正如你可能知道的那样，我使用这种循环语言的原因是，但对于观众来说，并不是想让事情变得复杂，但胎儿发育中激素的许多男性化作用实际上是转化为雌激素的睾酮，所以它可能会变得非常棘手。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But maybe for sake of simplicity today, we'll just stick with androgen effects on masculinization, with the understanding that some of those effects-
但也许今天为了简单起见，我们将坚持雄激素对男性化的影响，并理解其中一些影响-
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Are higher
较高
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
are the consequence of testosterone being converted into estrogen.
是睾酮转化为雌激素的结果。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's just that people form such strong associations falsely that testosterone is-
只是人们错误地形成了如此强烈的联想，以至于睾丸激素是——
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Male
男
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
maleness, and that's not true, and estrogen is femaleness and it just gets really murky.
男性特质，这不是真的，而雌激素就是女性特质，但它变得非常模糊。
But for the time being, you identified an external biomarker of fetal androgen, AKA masculinization via the mother.
但目前，您确定了胎儿雄激素的外部生物标志物，即通过母亲的男性化。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Got it.
明白了。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Okay.
好的。
So then we asked the question you've asked and many people asked, who cares?
然后我们问了你问过的问题，很多人都问过，谁在乎呢？
Why would we worry about a boy having a slightly smaller anogenital distance?
为什么我们会担心男孩的肛门生殖器距离稍小？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, I can tell you there are many boys that are probably worried about it right now.
好吧，我可以告诉你，现在可能有很多男孩对此感到担心。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They probably got the ruler and the calipers out right now.
他们可能现在就把尺子和卡尺拿出来了。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
But I'm going to answer that question.
但我要回答这个问题。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
So I told you that our kids are too young.
所以我告诉你，我们的孩子还太小。
They're not producing sperm right now.
他们现在不产生精子。
So we had to go to an adult population.
所以我们必须去成年人口。
And so we went to a population of college students in Rochester, New York.
因此，我们走访了纽约州罗切斯特市的一群大学生。
And what we did there was make an assumption, which is based on animal data.
我们所做的是基于动物数据做出假设。
It's true in animals.
在动物身上也是如此。
We've been following the animal path here all along.
我们一直沿着动物之路来到这里。
So in the animals, my colleague, Earl Gray, who did these studies, said-
因此，在动物身上，我的同事格雷伯爵（Earl Gray）进行了这些研究，他说：
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
His name is Earl Gray?
他的名字叫格雷伯爵？
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's cool.
太酷了。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yeah.
是的。
He said, "AGD is forever."
他说：“AGD是永远的。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Anogenital distance is forever.
肛门生殖器的距离是永远的。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Now, what that means is it's not like your anogenital distance today is what it was when you were born.
现在，这意味着您今天的肛门生殖器距离与您出生时的距离不同。
Of course, you're a bigger person, but that means adjusted for body size.
当然，您是一个更大的人，但这意味着要根据体型进行调整。
So if you assume that AGD is forever, if you're born with a short-for-your-size AGD, then when you're 20, you'll have a short-for-your-size AGD.
所以，如果你假设 AGD 是永远的，如果你生来就有一个不适合你的尺码的 AGD，那么当你 20 岁时，你也会有一个不适合你的尺码的 AGD。
Okay?
好的？
Can we assume that?
我们可以这样假设吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Okay.
好的。
So if we assume that, then if we get these college students to come in and we can measure their anogenital distance, we're getting a reflection of what it was when they were born.
因此，如果我们假设，那么如果我们让这些大学生进来，我们可以测量他们的肛门生殖器距离，我们就会得到他们出生时的情况的反映。
Okay?
好的？
And then we can get their sperm count, and then we can see if they're related, and that's what we did.
然后我们可以得到他们的精子数量，然后我们可以看看他们是否相关，这就是我们所做的。
So we got this population of volunteers, paid them $75, and one of the guys said, "For 75 bucks, you can do anything." And so what we did was we measured their anogenital distance, and then we got them to give a semen sample and complete a questionnaire, and things you do in a study.
所以我们招募了一批志愿者，付给他们 75 美元，其中一个人说：“只要 75 美元，你就可以做任何事情。”所以我们所做的就是测量他们的肛门生殖器距离，然后我们让他们提供精液样本并完成一份调查问卷，以及你在研究中要做的事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We'll link to that study, but I have a couple questions-
我们将链接到该研究，但我有几个问题 -
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
about the controls in that study, just for sake of people understanding how a study like this-
关于该研究中的对照，只是为了让人们了解这样的研究是如何进行的-
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
would be done.
会完成的。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I don't expect you to recall all the details, but you're adjusting for body size and body weight.
我不期望你记住所有细节，但你正在调整身体尺寸和体重。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Height, weight-
身高、体重——
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
what are the factors that would scale here that would allow you to normalize-- In other words, what you're trying to do is backtrack to what it likely was at infancy.
哪些因素会影响到你的正常化——换句话说，你要做的就是回溯到婴儿期的情况。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
No, we didn't actually try to go back.
不，我们实际上并没有尝试回去。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Let me just tell you what the results were.
让我告诉你结果是什么。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
In this group of men, if they had a longer anogenital distance, they had a higher sperm count
在这组男性中，如果他们的肛门生殖器距离较长，他们的精子数量就较高
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Got it.
明白了。
So you would correlate those two measures.
因此，您可以将这两个指标关联起来。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Right.
对。
And then if we wanted to say something about-- We didn't try to say anything about how it was when they were born.
然后，如果我们想说一些关于——我们并没有试图谈论他们出生时的情况。
We just said, okay, we'll take that assumption that this reflects their early AGD.
我们只是说，好吧，我们会假设这反映了他们早期的 AGD。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
If we want to say something about early AGD and sperm count.
如果我们想说一些关于早期 AGD 和精子计数的事情。
So it's easy to say AGD is related to sperm count because we measured that.
所以很容易说 AGD 与精子数量有关，因为我们测量了这一点。
We saw that.
我们看到了。
A correlation, that's published.
相关性已发布。
Okay.
好的。
If we want to say their early AGD at birth and their sperm count, that's a leap of faith in some sense-
如果我们想说他们出生时的早期 AGD 和精子数量，这在某种意义上是一种信仰的飞跃——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right
右
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
...
...
because we don't have their early.
因为我们没有他们的早期。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
For these guys in Rochester, we didn't measure their AGD at birth.
对于罗切斯特的这些人，我们没有测量他们出生时的 AGD。
So-
所以——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Were there any conditions of being a participant in the study such as refraining from alcohol, cannabis, et cetera, in the 90 days prior?
在 90 天内是否有任何参与研究的条件，例如禁止饮酒、吸食大麻等？
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
No.
不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Ninety days being the-
九十天是——
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
No, I don't think so
不，我不这么认为
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
duration of spermatogenesis.
精子发生的持续时间。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
I don't-- Yeah.
我不——是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
I don't remember that.
我不记得了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
These are college students-
这些是大学生——
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
so presumably some of them are drink-- Okay.
所以想必他们中的一些人是喝酒的——好吧。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So, but in the end, it was a robust-
所以，但最终，这是一个稳健的——
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
a robust link.
一个强大的链接。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
And then, Mike Eisenberg, who you might know at Stanford.
然后是迈克·艾森伯格，你可能在斯坦福大学认识他。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, my colleague at Stanford.
是的，我在斯坦福大学的同事。
He's been on this podcast.
他一直在这个播客上。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yep.
是的。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Oh, good.
哦，很好。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yep.
是的。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
So he's a colleague of mine, too.
所以他也是我的同事。
And he looked at men in a fertility clinic, and those who had borne children and those who had not borne children.
他还观察了生育诊所的男性，以及那些生育过孩子和未生育过孩子的男性。
And the men who had borne children had a longer anogenital distance than men who had never borne a child.
生育过孩子的男性的肛门生殖器距离比从未生育过的男性更长。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Never borne, but were trying.
从未承担过，但正在努力。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
These were not people who opted out.
这些人并不是选择退出的人。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yes.
是的。
Right.
正确的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
These were-
这些是——
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
These were people who were-
这些人是——
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
having challenges with fertility-
生育能力面临挑战-
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
versus success with-
与成功相比——
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
fertility.
生育能力。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
And by the way, the question of how you measure AGD in an adult man is a different question than how you measure it in a newborn.
顺便说一句，如何测量成年男性的 AGD 与如何测量新生儿的 AGD 是不同的问题。
And we did a lot of work on that, and Mike will help with that, too.
我们在这方面做了很多工作，迈克也会提供帮助。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So it sounds like-- Oh, and may I ask, were the sperm counts that were on the, let's just say the lower quartile.
所以听起来就像——哦，我可以问一下，精子数量是在，让我们说下四分位上。
Were the, quote-unquote, "lower sperm counts," functionally lower?
“精子数量减少”的功能是否较低？
Because I always wonder about this.
因为我总是想知道这个问题。
It's come up in a number of discussions with Robert Sapolsky, with Mike Eisenberg, and now I'm asking you.
在与罗伯特·萨波尔斯基（Robert Sapolsky）和迈克·艾森伯格（Mike Eisenberg）的多次讨论中都提到了这个问题，现在我问你。
When we hear that sperm counts are going down, are they going down to the point where fertility is impacted?
当我们听说精子数量正在下降时，它们是否会下降到影响生育能力的程度？
That's really the-
这确实是——
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
one of the, I think, functional questions.
我认为这是功能性问题之一。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
So let's lay aside the question of AGD, right?
那么我们先把 AGD 的问题放在一边吧？
Because that's really interesting, but let's talk about sperm count.
因为这真的很有趣，但我们来谈谈精子数量。
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Okay.
好的。
There's a beautiful study among pregnancy planners out of Denmark, quite a long time ago.
很久以前，丹麦的怀孕计划者进行了一项精彩的研究。
And in that study, what they did was take couples that were trying to conceive that had never, or not recently, I can't remember, used oral contraceptives.
在这项研究中，他们所做的是选择那些试图怀孕的夫妇，他们从未或最近没有使用过口服避孕药，我不记得了。
And then they saw what the sperm count was and how long it took them to conceive, right?
然后他们看到精子数量是多少以及他们受孕需要多长时间，对吗？
Time to pregnancy in relation to sperm.
怀孕时间与精子的关系。
And what they showed is a really interesting curve, which has never been corrected, to my knowledge.
他们展示的是一条非常有趣的曲线，据我所知，该曲线从未被纠正过。
It's what I use and what I think people use.
这是我所使用的，也是我认为人们所使用的。
Which is that if you-- I wish I could draw it here.
如果你——我希望我能把它画在这里。
I wish we had a bl-- You should have a board, a whiteboard here.
我希望我们有一个 bl——你应该在这里有一块板，一块白板。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The problem is a lot of people are listening.
问题是很多人都在听。
But maybe we-
但也许我们——
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yeah, I know
是的，我知道
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
we can talk people through it.
我们可以与人们讨论它。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sorry.
抱歉。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
So just think about a curve where you go all the way down to zero.
因此，只要考虑一条一直下降到零的曲线。
That would be no sperm.
那就没有精子了。
And then as the probability of conceiving is zero, so you're looking at sperm count along the x-axis and months to conception.
然后，由于受孕的概率为零，因此您要查看 X 轴上的精子数量和受孕时间。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
And what you see is that if you have no sperm, you have no conception.
你看到的是，如果你没有精子，你就不会受孕。
If you go up to around 40, 45, there's a steep increase.
如果达到 40、45 左右，就会出现急剧增加。
So the more sperm you have-
所以你拥有的精子越多-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Forty, forty-five million?
四千万、四千五百万？
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Million per milliliter.
每毫升百万。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And this is million per milliliter, so just pure concentration, not number of motile sperm.
这是每毫升百万，所以只是纯粹的浓度，而不是活动精子的数量。
This is just-
这只是——
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
That's it.
就是这样。
Correct
正确
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
how many sperm.
有多少精子。
We're not talking about quality-
我们不是在谈论质量 -
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
No
否
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
we're just talking about number.
我们只是在谈论数字。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
No, just the number.
不，只是数字。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
And when you have 45 to 50 million per milliliter, and below, it matters a lot what your sperm count is.
当您的精子数量为每毫升 45 至 5000 万个或以下时，您的精子数量就非常重要。
People say it doesn't matter.
人们说没关系。
Yeah.
是的。
If you get in this range where the probability of conception is dropping off really rapidly-
如果你处于这个范围内，受孕的可能性就会迅速下降——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
...
...
it matters a lot.
这很重要。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
And then around 45 to 50, it starts to level off.
然后在 45 到 50 左右，它开始趋于平稳。
And then after that, certainly after 100, probably 75, it doesn't matter at all.
然后在那之后，当然是在100之后，可能是75之后，就完全不重要了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So 100 million sperm per milliliter-
所以每毫升有 1 亿个精子——
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
of semen.
精液。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
So can you see this?
那么你能看到这个吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Yep.
是的。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Okay.
好的。
So when people say, "Does sperm count matter for fertility?" Yes, it matters a lot if it's low, and no, it doesn't matter at all if it's high.
因此，当人们问“精子数量对生育能力重要吗？”时，是的，如果它低，那就很重要，不，如果它高，那根本不重要。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
So we just have too many sperm.
所以我们的精子太多了。
I mean, I don't, but humans, you know.
我的意思是，我不知道，但是人类，你知道。
And there's-
还有——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So nature runs a probability game.
所以大自然运行着一个概率游戏。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Overproduce sperm.
精子产生过多。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Some of those will be high quality, some will be low quality-
其中一些将是高质量的，一些将是低质量的-
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Exactly
正是如此
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
depending on their age, that is, when they were generated.
取决于它们的年龄，即它们产生的时间。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Or their conditions.
或者他们的条件。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or their conditions, how much heat exposure, et cetera.
或者他们的条件，暴露多少热量，等等。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So nature runs a probability game.
所以大自然运行着一个概率游戏。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hoping that the best quality sperm will fertilize the egg.
希望最优质的精子能够使卵子受精。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So below 45,000, excuse me, below 45 million-
所以低于 45,000，对不起，低于 4500 万-
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Million per milliliter
百万每毫升
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
below 45 million sperm per milliliter of semen, the sperm count really matters.
每毫升精液中的精子数量低于 4500 万，精子数量确实很重要。
It drops off precipitously.
它急剧下降。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Once you get up to 75, 100 million per milliliter of sperm, then-
一旦每毫升精子达到 75、1 亿个，那么——
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
It's all good.
一切都很好。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
You're good to go.
你可以走了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
And sperm counts range anywhere from, it could be low, eight, nine, 10 million per milliliter in the very low situation.
精子数量范围很广，在非常低的情况下，可能会很低，每毫升有八、九、一千万。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
It could be zero.
它可能为零。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It could be zero in some people, right?
对于某些人来说它可能为零，对吗？
All the way up to 400-
一直到400-
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
million.
万。
There's a huge range.
范围很大。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And that's a function of age, it's a function of genetics, it's a function of presumably phthalate exposure.
这是年龄的函数，是遗传的函数，大概是邻苯二甲酸盐暴露的函数。
Right?
正确的？
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd like to take a quick break and thank one of our sponsors, Function.
我想稍微休息一下，并感谢我们的赞助商之一 Function。
I recently became a Function member after searching for the most comprehensive approach to lab testing.
在寻找最全面的实验室测试方法后，我最近成为了 Function 成员。
While I've long been a fan of blood testing, I really wanted to find a more in-depth program for analyzing blood, urine, and saliva to get a full picture of my heart health, my hormone status, my immune system regulation, my metabolic function, my vitamin and mineral status, and other critical areas of my overall health and vitality.
虽然我长期以来一直热衷于血液检测，但我真的很想找到一个更深入的程序来分析血液、尿液和唾液，以全面了解我的心脏健康状况、我的激素状态、我的免疫系统调节、我的代谢功能、我的维生素和矿物质状态以及我整体健康和活力的其他关键领域。
Function not only provides testing of over 100 biomarkers key to physical and mental health, but it also analyzes these results and provides insights from top doctors on your results.
Function 不仅提供对身心健康至关重要的 100 多种生物标志物的测试，还分析这些结果并提供顶级医生对结果的见解。
For example, in one of my first tests with Function, I learned that I had too high levels of mercury in my blood.
例如，在我第一次使用 Function 进行测试时，我发现我的血液中汞含量过高。
This was totally surprising to me.
这让我完全惊讶。
I had no idea prior to taking the test.
参加考试之前我不知道。
Function not only helped me detect this, but offered medical doctor-informed insights on how to best reduce those mercury levels, which included limiting my tuna consumption, because I had been eating a lot of tuna, while also making an effort to eat more leafy greens and supplementing with NAC, N-acetylcysteine, both of which can support glutathione production and detoxification, and worked to reduce my mercury levels.
功能不仅帮助我发现了这一点，而且还为我提供了关于如何最好地降低汞含量的医生知情见解，其中包括限制我的金枪鱼消费，因为我一直在吃大量金枪鱼，同时还努力吃更多的绿叶蔬菜并补充 NAC、N-乙酰半胱氨酸，这两者都可以支持谷胱甘肽的产生和解毒，并努力降低我的汞含量。
Comprehensive lab testing like this is so important for health, and while I've been doing it for years, I've always found it to be overly complicated and expensive.
像这样的综合实验室测试对健康非常重要，虽然我已经这样做了很多年，但我总是发现它过于复杂和昂贵。
I've been so impressed by Function, both at the level of ease of use, that is getting the test done, as well as how comprehensive and how actionable the tests are, that I recently joined their advisory board, and I'm thrilled that they're sponsoring the podcast.
Function 给我留下了深刻的印象，无论是在易用性方面，还是在完成测试方面，以及测试的全面性和可操作性方面，我最近加入了他们的顾问委员会，我很高兴他们赞助了这个播客。
If you'd like to try Function, go to functionhealth.com/huberman.
如果您想尝试 Function，请访问 functionhealth.com/huberman。
Function currently has a wait list of over 250,000 people, but they're offering early access to Huberman Lab listeners.
Function 目前有超过 250,000 人的等待名单，但他们正在为 Huberman Lab 听众提供早期访问机会。
Again, that's functionhealth.com/huberman to get early access to Function.
同样，可以通过 functionhealth.com/huberman 提前访问 Function。
We were on to the fact that sperm counts are dropping.
我们发现精子数量正在下降。
There's a relationship to anogenital distance, and there's a relationship between anogenital distance and phthalate exposure.
与肛门生殖器距离有关系，肛门生殖器距离与邻苯二甲酸盐暴露也有关系。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then I asked the question, okay, we're hearing about sperm counts dropping, but is it functionally relevant?
然后我问了一个问题，好吧，我们听说精子数量下降，但这与功能相关吗？
Is that one of the reasons why fertility is dropping?
这是生育率下降的原因之一吗？
And we've also got the female side where we've got women with elevated androgens.
我们也有女性方面，其中女性的雄激素水平较高。
So we can talk about that a little bit later.
所以我们可以稍后再讨论这个问题。
And then, of course, we have the sociobiology piece where people are opting out, or it's also economics in some cases, opting out of having kids.
然后，当然，我们有社会生物学的部分，人们选择退出，或者在某些情况下也是经济学，选择不生孩子。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Right.
对。
So let's go back to sperm count, because we haven't really talked about that.
让我们回到精子计数，因为我们还没有真正讨论过这个问题。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
It's a kind of a different path, and my introduction into phthalates was not through sperm count.
这是一条不同的道路，我对邻苯二甲酸盐的了解并不是通过精子计数。
Right?
正确的？
It was through this question of my colleague asking me, "You should look at this," and challenged, and I looked at it, and that was really, really interesting journey that I went on.
正是通过我的同事问我的这个问题，“你应该看看这个”，并提出挑战，我看了它，这是我经历的非常非常有趣的旅程。
Okay?
好的？
But there was a separate, for a while, journey that I was on, and that started in the late 1990s when I was asked to join a committee of the National Academy of Sciences.
但有一段时间，我正在进行一段单独的旅程，那是从 20 世纪 90 年代末开始的，当时我被邀请加入美国国家科学院的一个委员会。
And that committee was assembled to look at the question of whether hormonally active chemicals, endocrine-disrupting chemicals in the environment posed a threat to human health.
该委员会的成立是为了研究环境中的荷尔蒙活性化学物质、内分泌干扰化学物质是否对人类健康构成威胁。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Because at that time, it was like, well, yeah, we hear about this, but should we care?
因为当时，我们听说了这个，但我们应该关心吗？
Right?
正确的？
And so that committee wanted to consider a study that had come out of Denmark a few years earlier, which claimed that sperm count had dropped 50% in 50 years.
因此，该委员会想要考虑几年前丹麦发表的一项研究，该研究声称精子数量在 50 年内下降了 50%。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wow.
哇。
That's a huge drop.
这是一个巨大的下降。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
We're seeing worse than that, by the way, now.
顺便说一句，我们现在看到的情况比这更糟糕。
So, okay.
那么，好吧。
They said to me, I was the only statistician on the panel, "Would you look at this and see if we need to consider this in our deliberations?" And as I mentioned, I'm skeptical, and I looked at it, and I thought, "Eh, I don't think so." That was my initial reaction.
他们对我说，我是小组中唯一的统计学家，“你能看一下这个，看看我们是否需要在审议中考虑这一点吗？”正如我提到的，我对此表示怀疑，我看着它，我想，“呃，我不这么认为。”这是我最初的反应。
And that was because, first of all, I didn't know who had written this.
那是因为，首先，我不知道是谁写的。
I just saw it in a journal, and it was not very big and not very many figures, not very much data, and I thought of it, and I thought, "That's a big claim for a little paper.
我刚刚在一本期刊上看到它，它不是很大，不是很多数字，不是很多数据，我想到了它，我想，“对于一篇小论文来说，这是一个很大的主张。
But I'll look at it, because it's important." And so what I did then was to think about all the factors that we epidemiologists call confounders.
但我会看看它，因为它很重要。”所以我当时所做的就是思考我们流行病学家称之为混杂因素的所有因素。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Things that might have caused that decline if it wasn't real biologically.
如果不是真正的生物学原因，那么可能会导致这种下降。
Right?
正确的？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
And so we could think of some of them together.
所以我们可以把其中一些放在一起思考。
Maybe the method of counting sperm had changed, so that later methods counted fewer sperm in the same sample.
也许精子计数的方法发生了变化，因此后来的方法在同一样本中计数的精子较少。
That's certainly possible, right?
这当然有可能，对吧？
But it turned out that wasn't the case because they actually had all used the same method.
但事实证明并非如此，因为他们实际上都使用了相同的方法。
And maybe the men had changed.
也许男人们已经改变了。
You can't get a sperm count at random.
您无法随机获得精子计数。
You have to get somebody to volunteer, right?
你必须找个人来做志愿者，对吧？
So who were these men?
那么这些人是谁？
Or were they very different in the early part of the study and the late part of the study in a way that maybe in the late part of the study, there were men with lower sperm count, and they were more concerned.
或者他们在研究的早期部分和研究的后期部分是否有很大不同，也许在研究的后期部分，有精子数量较低的男性，他们更担心。
Maybe they were more obese.
也许他们更肥胖。
That's pretty plausible.
这是相当合理的。
Obesity is related to semen sperm count, fertility.
肥胖与精液精子数量、生育能力有关。
And maybe they smoked more, and so on and so forth.
也许他们抽烟更多，等等。
Right?
正确的？
So what I did was to get the 61 studies, go through them, and try to extract information on all the factors that could explain the decline.
所以我所做的就是获取 61 项研究，仔细研究它们，并尝试提取所有可以解释下降的因素的信息。
So I created a multivariable model and ran that model.
所以我创建了一个多变量模型并运行该模型。
And to my astonishment, when I was done, the slope of the decline was exactly the same to the first decimal place.
令我惊讶的是，当我完成后，下降的斜率与小数点后第一位完全相同。
It had not explained anything.
它没有解释任何事情。
And I was like, "Oh my God, this looks like it might be real."
我当时想，“天哪，这看起来可能是真的。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And for those listening, what Dr. Swan is describing is being the excellent scientist that she is, she went and looked for all the things that could impact the result that were not related to what the main conclusion seemed to be, which is that sperm counts were going down over time.
对于那些听的人来说，斯旺博士所描述的是她是一位出色的科学家，她去寻找所有可能影响结果的因素，这些因素与主要结论似乎无关，即精子数量随着时间的推移而下降。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
And this is really important because I think what we're talking about here in parallel to the main conversation is how to do really great science, especially in human populations that are out there living.
这非常重要，因为我认为我们在这里与主要对话并行讨论的是如何进行真正伟大的科学，特别是针对生活在其中的人类。
Some of these men probably smoke some cannabis.
其中一些人可能吸食大麻。
I'm not saying that reduces sperm count.
我并不是说这会减少精子数量。
It might reduce sperm motility, however.
然而，它可能会降低精子活力。
We covered that in the podcast.
我们在播客中对此进行了介绍。
Now all the cannabis folks go, "Well, so and so got so and so pregnant when they were doing a lot of weed." And I always say, "Okay, well, there are a number of other factors," right?
现在所有吸大麻的人都会说，“好吧，当他们吸食大量大麻时，某某某某怀孕了。”我总是说，“好吧，还有很多其他因素，”对吧？
But alcohol, there's frequency of ejaculation, right?
但是酒精，有射精的频率吧？
The requirement to abstain for 48 to 72 hours to up to five days prior, et cetera.
要求禁欲 48 至 72 小时，最多五天，等等。
All these factors that men may or may not faithfully report, but you assume that if some are telling the truth and some aren't, that there's an equal distribution of that.
所有这些因素，人们可能会或可能不会如实报告，但你假设，如果有些人说的是真话，有些人不是，那么这些因素的分布是平等的。
So all the different things.
所以所有不同的事情。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
This is so very different than looking at, for instance, ovarian reserve, like the number of eggs, where you use ultrasound and you use AMH levels and sure, things can impact that, but it's a little different than when taking-
这与观察卵巢储备功能（例如卵子数量）非常不同，在这种情况下，您使用超声波和 AMH 水平，当然，事情会影响这一点，但这与服用时有点不同——
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
sperm counts.
精子计数。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So thank you for doing the studies so carefully and for repeating them so many times.
感谢您如此仔细地进行研究并多次重复这些研究。
Many of the studies that you've done, you've done follow-up on these sperm count studies across multiple years.
您所做的许多研究，以及多年来对这些精子计数研究的后续研究。
As you said, the first study was in 1992, then you did one in 2017, then there was one again, and there was an update I noticed online.
正如你所说，第一个研究是在 1992 年，然后你在 2017 年做了一个，然后又做了一个，我在网上注意到了一个更新。
So you are extremely thorough, and it probably reflects your early training in math and statistics and probability theory.
所以你非常彻底，这可能反映了你早期在数学、统计学和概率论方面的训练。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You're not somebody to just go in and go, "Oh, yeah, in these people that eat a few too much of this, then there's a little bit less of that." So if today's discussion feels like we're really lathing through this, that's intentional.
你不是那种会进来然后说：“哦，是的，在这些人中，吃太多这个，然后就少吃一点。”因此，如果今天的讨论感觉我们真的在讨论这个问题，那是故意的。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it's important for people to hear these kinds of claims are not the sort of thing that people make them all over the board, but work like this needs to be done with an extremely meticulous eye and consideration of all the variables.
重要的是，人们要听到这些说法并不是人们全面提出的，而是需要以极其细致的眼光并考虑所有变量来完成这样的工作。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Well, good scientific method.
嗯，很好的科学方法。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
And I would say especially with human epidemiological work-
我想说，尤其是在人类流行病学工作方面——
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
because of the number of potential confounding variables.
因为潜在的混杂变量的数量。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
So when I saw that and actually did another study to select my own studies and not accept her 61 studies that had been published, that Elizabeth Carlson had published.
因此，当我看到这一点并实际上做了另一项研究来选择我自己的研究而不接受她已发表的 61 项研究时，伊丽莎白·卡尔森已经发表了。
So new studies, came up to more recent times, went back further, did it again, found exactly the same thing.
因此，最近出现的新研究，进一步回溯，再次进行，发现了完全相同的事情。
Okay, so there were three looks at that, and I thought, "Okay.
好吧，看了三遍，我想，“好吧。
I'm going to accept this now." Sperm count is declining.
我现在要接受这一点。”精子数量正在减少。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
And why?
为什么？
I turn to the why, okay?
我转向为什么，好吗？
Because up until now, we hadn't said anything about why.
因为到目前为止，我们还没有说出原因。
We just said: "Is it doing that?" Yes.
我们只是说：“是这样做的吗？”是的。
Okay.
好的。
Now we believe it is declining, why?
现在我们相信它正在下降，为什么呢？
And so then I thought quite a lot and talked to people and ruled out genetics because it was too fast.
然后我想了很多，并与人们交谈并排除了遗传学，因为它太快了。
It's two generations, it's too fast.
已经两代人了，太快了。
Fifty years, two generations.
五十年，两代人。
So if it's not genetics, then it's environment.
所以，如果不是遗传因素，那就是环境因素。
And so what is it about the environment that could do this?
那么，什么环境可以做到这一点呢？
So I asked, okay, in the environment, there could be things that are making sperm decline.
所以我问，好吧，在环境中，可能存在导致精子衰退的因素。
So if you think about how you might look at that, you might design the study that I designed next, which was another study.
因此，如果你考虑如何看待这一点，你可能会设计我接下来设计的研究，这是另一项研究。
And by the way, this preceded the AGD.
顺便说一句，这早于 AGD。
So we had four cities in the United States that we picked with different environments, and then we got men to come in, and we used the same equipment at each place.
所以我们在美国有四个城市，我们选择了不同的环境，然后我们让人员进来，我们在每个地方都使用相同的设备。
We used the same method of selecting the men.
我们用同样的方法来选择男性。
The technicians were trained centrally at UC Davis.
技术人员在加州大学戴维斯分校接受集中培训。
We had very good quality control, so samples were sent around every quarter to make sure that everybody was measuring things the same way.
我们有非常好的质量控制，因此每个季度都会发送样品，以确保每个人都以相同的方式进行测量。
We didn't want drift, right?
我们不想漂移，对吧？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
And then we got their urine, and that's how I had those urine samples.
然后我们采集了他们的尿液，我就是这样采集尿液样本的。
So if you wanted to do this study and you wanted to get a representative sample of men, where would you go?
因此，如果您想做这项研究并且想要获得具有代表性的男性样本，您会去哪里？
Because I can't ask a guy in the street to give me a semen sample, right?
因为我不能要求街上的一个人给我提供精液样本，对吗？
It's not something you get very-- So I thought, "How can I get a representative sample, which would teach me something about a larger population called the parent population?" So here's a sample, it should represent the parent.
这不是你能得到的东西——所以我想，“我怎样才能得到一个有代表性的样本，这将教会我一些关于称为父代群体的更大群体的知识？”这是一个示例，它应该代表父级。
So how do I ensure that?
那么我如何确保这一点呢？
And what I decided was to sample partners of pregnant women.
我决定对孕妇的伴侣进行抽样。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Because pregnant women all come to medical care, almost all.
因为孕妇几乎都会来就医。
And if their partners will give a semen sample, then we have a representative sample-
如果他们的伴侣愿意提供精液样本，那么我们就有了一个具有代表性的样本——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
...
...
and we know what we're looking at.
我们知道我们在看什么。
So that's what we did.
这就是我们所做的。
So the semen study is the study of partners of pregnant women.
所以精液研究就是对孕妇伴侣的研究。
And of course, they'll have slightly higher semen quality because they got their partner pregnant.
当然，他们的精液质量会稍高一些，因为他们让伴侣怀孕了。
And so we had their urine, we had their blood, and we looked at their semen quality, and then we decided to look at pesticides.
所以我们采集了他们的尿液，采集了他们的血液，检查了他们的精液质量，然后我们决定检查农药。
And the reason we look at pesticides was because there was a lot of gradation across our four centers in pesticide use.
我们之所以关注农药，是因为我们四个中心的农药使用存在很大差异。
And what we found was really extraordinary, that men who were living in central Missouri, where I was living at the time who were in the middle of an agricultural belt where there was spraying all the time for soybeans and so on.
我们发现的情况确实很不寻常，那些住在密苏里州中部的人，也就是我当时居住的地方，他们位于农业带的中间，那里一直在喷洒大豆等作物。
Those men had half as many moving sperm as men in Minneapolis.
这些男性的活动精子数量是明尼阿波利斯男性的一半。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Whoa.
哇哦。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Whoa.
哇哦。
Huge, right?
巨大，对吧？
And then we went one step further, and within Missouri, we looked at a sample of men who had very high sperm parameters and very low sperm parameters, and showed that five pesticides were significantly higher in the men with the low sperm parameters.
然后我们更进一步，在密苏里州，我们观察了精子参数非常高和精子参数非常低的男性样本，结果表明，在精子参数低的男性中，五种农药的含量显着较高。
That include motility and morphology, all the parameters.
这包括运动性和形态学等所有参数。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So these are pesticides that are being sprayed in the air on crops.
这些是喷洒在空气中农作物上的杀虫剂。
You mentioned soybeans.
你提到了大豆。
What other types of crops?
还有哪些其他类型的农作物？
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
I don't know.
我不知道。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
I don't remember.
我不记得了。
That was a while ago.
那是不久前的事了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So plant and fruit crops, presumably.
因此，大概是植物和水果作物。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yeah, whatever they were growing in Columbia, Missouri at that time.
是的，无论当时他们在密苏里州哥伦比亚种植什么。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
And just to make sure I understand, it's not that the men need-
只是为了确保我明白，这并不是男人们需要的——
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Soybeans.
大豆。
Corn and soybeans.
玉米和大豆。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Corn and soybeans.
玉米和大豆。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But we're not talking about eating corn and soybeans.
但我们不是在谈论吃玉米和大豆。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
No.
不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We're talking about living in an area where pesticides are being used by, I guess it-
我们正在谈论生活在使用杀虫剂的地区，我猜是-
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
But actually-
但实际上——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is it still called dust crop?
还叫尘茬吗？
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yeah, we didn't go into how they got these.
是的，我们没有探究他们是如何得到这些的。
We just looked in their urine, and there were the metabolites.
我们只是检查了他们的尿液，发现里面有代谢物。
The metabolites don't get in their urine unless they were exposed.
除非暴露，否则代谢物不会进入尿液。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Exposed through the air or exposed by eating corn-
通过空气暴露或通过吃玉米暴露
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
We don't know
我们不知道
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and soybeans.
和大豆。
We don't know.
我们不知道。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
We don't know.
我们不知道。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
We don't know.
我们不知道。
But this was not a particularly-- We didn't sample farmers only or anything like that.
但这并不是特别的——我们不仅仅对农民或类似的人进行了抽样。
So it was whoever came into the-- Remember how we got these men.
所以无论是谁进来——记住我们是如何找到这些人的。
Their wives were pregnant.
他们的妻子怀孕了。
They were having prenatal care at the University of Missouri.
他们在密苏里大学接受产前护理。
So that's where we got them.
这就是我们得到它们的地方。
Whoever happened to come in to the prenatal clinic and agree to be in our study, the male's urine was measured for these pesticides.
无论谁碰巧来到产前诊所并同意参加我们的研究，都会对男性尿液中的这些农药进行检测。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm sure a number of people, including myself, are wondering in what other products are these five pesticides present.
我确信很多人，包括我自己，都想知道这五种农药还存在于哪些其他产品中。
Are these commonly used pesticides, or is it something about-
这些是常用的农药吗，还是——
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
They're called the triazine pesticides.
它们被称为三嗪农药。
Atrazine was the most widely used, and it's in huge use around the world.
阿特拉津是使用最广泛的，并且在世界各地都有大量使用。
It's one of the largest commercial pesticides.
它是最大的商业农药之一。
So these were very big players in the pesticide field.
所以这些都是农药领域的重要参与者。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
A relevant theme there would be, maybe we could take a moment and talk about Atrazine and its effect on male sexual behavior in amphibia.
一个相关的主题是，也许我们可以花点时间谈谈莠去津及其对两栖动物雄性性行为的影响。
And we'll come back to- ...
我们会回来-...
the sperm studies because-
精子研究是因为——
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Sure
当然可以
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
when I was a graduate student at UC Berkeley, I had the wonderful experience of taking a course from the now, I think you mentioned he's a dean.
当我还是加州大学伯克利分校的研究生时，我有过从现在开始学习课程的美妙经历，我想你提到过他是一名院长。
There are multiple deans on campuses.
校园内有多位院长。
Tyrone Hayes is a wonderful researcher who established a link through his research between Atrazine exposure and male sexual behavior of amphibia.
蒂龙·海斯（Tyrone Hayes）是一位出色的研究人员，他通过研究在莠去津暴露与两栖动物的雄性性行为之间建立了联系。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Could you elaborate on that result?
您能详细说明一下这个结果吗？
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So Tyrone first caught frogs in the wild, in environments that were more or less exposed to Atrazine and showed effects on development and sexual behavior.
因此，蒂龙首先在野外捕捉青蛙，在或多或少接触阿特拉津的环境中，青蛙对发育和性行为产生了影响。
Then in his lab, he actually exposed them, so he knew exactly who was exposed and to how much.
然后在他的实验室里，他实际上暴露了它们，所以他确切地知道谁被暴露了以及暴露了多少。
And he showed that the-- I can't tell you what percent, but a significant number of frogs exposed to this pesticide, Atrazine, chose to mate with other male frogs.
他表明，我无法告诉你有多少百分比，但暴露于阿特拉津杀虫剂的大量青蛙选择与其他雄性青蛙交配。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Tried to mate with other male frogs, presumably unsuccessfully.
尝试与其他雄性青蛙交配，大概没有成功。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Well, they mounted them.
好吧，他们安装了它们。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
He has photos of the males mounting males.
他有雄性骑上雄性的照片。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And so presumably this is a neural change that occurred.
因此，这可能是发生的神经变化。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Neuroendocrine change.
神经内分泌变化。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But ultimately neural, since mounting behavior is controlled by-- Actually we now know the hypothalamic nuclei that control this.
但最终是神经性的，因为安装行为是由——实际上我们现在知道控制这一点的下丘脑核团。
David Anderson, who's been on this podcast, has people in his laboratory, including a former graduate student of mine working on this specific issue of what the circuitry is.
大卫·安德森（David Anderson）是这个播客的主持人，他的实验室里有人，包括我的一名前研究生，正在研究电路这个具体问题。
That's a remarkable result.
这是一个了不起的结果。
It's been used and misused out there in the media and in popular culture.
它在媒体和流行文化中被使用和滥用。
But if nothing else, it suggests that the organization of the neural circuits and neuroendocrine pathways that control sexual, I don't want to say partner, because it is a mating thing, frogs aren't monogamous, but sexual preference are significantly impacted by this Atrazine.
但如果不出意外的话，这表明控制性行为的神经回路和神经内分泌途径的组织，我不想说伴侣，因为这是交配的事情，青蛙不是一夫一妻制的，但性偏好会受到这种莠去津的显着影响。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yes.
是的。
And it suggests that there are other environmental chemicals can as well.
这表明还有其他环境化学物质也可以。
And I don't know if I'll have time to go there, but I did work on neurodevelopmental outcomes in relation to prenatal phthalate exposure.
我不知道我是否有时间去那里，但我确实研究了与产前邻苯二甲酸盐暴露相关的神经发育结果。
And so I think the overarching idea here is that the brain, like the genitals, is sexually dimorphic.
所以我认为这里最重要的想法是大脑，就像生殖器一样，具有性别二态性。
And there's many people, by the way, who will take offense at that.
顺便说一句，有很多人会对此感到生气。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Really?
真的吗？
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think there's-- Going back to the-
我认为——回到——
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
I know
我知道
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
work of Frank Beach in the-
弗兰克·比奇 (Frank Beach) 的作品——
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
I know
我知道
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
Psychology Department at UC Berkeley-
加州大学伯克利分校心理学系-
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
I know
我知道
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
showed this in beagles.
在比格犬中证明了这一点。
It's been shown in pretty much-
它已经被展示在几乎-
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
I know
我知道
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
every species.
每个物种。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
But I'll just tell you that-
但我只想告诉你——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But it's not a better, worse.
但这不是更好，而是更糟。
I think this is what-
我想这就是——
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
No
否
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
people need to hear.
人们需要听到。
Like dimorphic does not mean better, worse.
就像二态性并不意味着更好、更差。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It means different.
意思是不同的。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Different.
不同。
Right.
正确的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
And there are, for example, advantages to spatial reasoning in a male, which are related to testosterone.
例如，男性的空间推理能力有优势，这与睾丸激素有关。
Right?
正确的？
You know that.
你知道的。
So spatially-
所以在空间上——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think they're-- Yeah.
我认为他们是——是的。
My understanding of this literature, and I'm not an expert in this particular aspect, which is the behavioral phenotypes.
根据我对这篇文献的理解，我不是这个特定方面（即行为表型）的专家。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Like the medial preoptic area of the hypothalamus is known to be sexually dimorphic-
就像已知下丘脑的内侧视前区具有性别二态性一样——
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
dependent on testosterone-
依赖睾酮——
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
converted into estrogen-
转化为雌激素——
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
during development, et cetera.
在开发过程中等等。
And there's just so much evidence of this.
有很多证据证明这一点。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
How it links to behaviors, I think can be reasonably placed into ethologically relevant, evolutionarily logical-
我认为，它如何与行为联系起来，可以合理地纳入行为学相关的、进化逻辑的范畴——
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
arguments when talking about rodents or beagles or even rhesus macaque monkeys.
在谈论啮齿类动物、比格犬甚至恒河猴时会发生争论。
I think where people get a bit inflamed is when people try and take the sexual dimorphisms that have been observed in animal brains or even in human brains and tack those to specific abilities or lesser abilities.
我认为，当人们尝试采用在动物大脑甚至人类大脑中观察到的性别二态性并将其应用于特定能力或较低能力时，人们会感到有点恼火。
I think that's when people sort of go, "Wait a second, I have much better sense of direction than my husband." And you go, "Well, yeah." And then you go, well, does that mean that she has higher testosterone than him?
我认为这时候人们会说，“等一下，我比我丈夫更有方向感。”然后你说：“嗯，是的。”然后你就会想，这是否意味着她的睾丸激素比他高？
And then maybe, and pretty soon you're-
然后也许，很快你就会——
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in almost a no man's land, a no person's land of- ...
在几乎无人区，无人区——......
confounding variables.
混淆变量。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
You're right.
你是对的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
But I really appreciate that you raised this.
但我真的很感谢你提出这个问题。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And also that you said it and I didn't, because I feel safer that way.
而且你说了而我没有，因为这样我感觉更安全。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
But look, there is a very simple, outdated questionnaire, and it's play behavior.
但你看，有一个非常简单、过时的调查问卷，那就是游戏行为。
It's called the PSAI.
它被称为 PSAI。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
It's been used for years.
它已使用多年。
I don't know if you've heard.
不知道你有没有听说过。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's a rough and tumble play.
这是一场粗暴且跌跌撞撞的比赛。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yes.
是的。
And there are 24 questions on there, and they are sexually dimorphic, I guess you could say.
那里有 24 个问题，而且它们是性别二态性的，我猜你可能会说。
My child likes to play with dolls.
我的孩子喜欢玩洋娃娃。
My child likes to play dress-up.
我的孩子喜欢玩装扮游戏。
My child likes to play rough and tumble, et cetera.
我的孩子喜欢打闹、摔跤等等。
And we gave that questionnaire to our population and looked at the answers that the mothers gave.
我们向我们的人群发放了这份调查问卷，并查看了母亲们给出的答案。
Both in our population, by the way, and a Swedish population of a colleague there, Gustaf Bornhagh.
顺便说一句，无论是在我们的人口中，还是在瑞典的一位同事古斯塔夫·博恩哈格（Gustaf Bornhagh）的人口中。
And what we found, higher phthalate levels, these anti-androgenic phthalates were associated with less masculine, male typical play in our male boys.
我们发现，较高的邻苯二甲酸盐水平，这些抗雄激素邻苯二甲酸盐与我们男孩的男性典型游戏行为较少有关。
So-
所以——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This is phthalate exposure to the-
这是邻苯二甲酸盐暴露于-
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
In utero
在子宫内
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
to the mom, baby is born in the young human child.
对于妈妈来说，婴儿是出生在年轻的人类孩子。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yeah, I think it was four years of age.
是的，我想那是四岁的时候。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Four years of age, less rough and tumble type play-
四岁，少一些粗暴和翻滚的游戏——
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
That's right
没错
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
among the boys whose mothers were exposed to more phthalates during a critical period of development.
男孩的母亲在发育的关键时期接触了更多的邻苯二甲酸盐。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Now you can see that's a politically loaded issue now.
现在你可以看到这是一个充满政治色彩的问题。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
There's a-
有一个——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, I think we're-- Let's have some fun with this in the scientific sense.
好吧，我想我们——让我们从科学意义上来享受一下这个乐趣。
The notion of dimorphism is, okay, male and female brains are different, right?
二态性的概念是，男性和女性的大脑是不同的，对吗？
And male, female defined in almost all those studies as presence of a Y chromosome.
几乎所有这些研究中，男性、女性都被定义为存在 Y 染色体。
And then people say, well, there's XYY, and then there's XXY.
然后人们说，好吧，有 XYY，然后有 XXY。
Okay.
好的。
But most of the time you're talking about XX chromosome or XY chromosomes at birth.
但大多数时候你谈论的是出生时的 XX 染色体或 XY 染色体。
Forget everything else for the moment.
暂时忘记其他一切。
These are always distributions.
这些始终是分布。
This is what I think people need to know.
这是我认为人们需要知道的。
This is not two hills of data separated by a valley.
这并不是一谷之隔的两座数据山。
These are overlapping distributions.
这些是重叠的分布。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Correct.
正确。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
So you get males with a, quote-unquote, female-like distribution.
所以你会得到男性，其分布与女性相似。
You get females with a, quote-unquote, male-like distribution.
你会得到具有类似男性分布的女性。
And I think as long as we acknowledge that, then we're just talking statistics.
我认为只要我们承认这一点，那么我们就只是在谈论统计数据。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We're not placing any cultural or any value on it really whatsoever.
我们并没有真正赋予它任何文化或任何价值。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Right.
对。
But if you could make the analog to the anogenital distance, it's kind of similar.
但如果你可以类比肛门生殖器的距离，那就有点相似了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
You have the same exposure, phthalate exposure.
你也有同样的接触，邻苯二甲酸盐接触。
You have something change statistically.
统计上你有一些变化。
We don't see huge differences in the boys' genitals.
我们没有看到男孩的生殖器有很大的差异。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
And we don't see huge-- These kids have not been scanned, so we don't know how their brains look.
我们并没有看到巨大的——这些孩子还没有被扫描，所以我们不知道他们的大脑是什么样子。
But based on their answers, we don't see huge differences.
但根据他们的回答，我们没有看到巨大的差异。
We see tendencies.
我们看到了趋势。
We see they are more likely, if they had been exposed to these phthalates, to want to play dress-up and have tea parties.
我们发现，如果他们接触过这些邻苯二甲酸盐，他们更有可能想要玩装扮游戏和举办茶会。
More likely.
更有可能。
Doesn't mean that they're all going to, but that's the direction, and so on.
并不意味着他们都会这样做，但这就是方向，等等。
So I think we have to just think about more likely, not absolute.
所以我认为我们必须只考虑更有可能的情况，而不是绝对的。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And of course, there are also the socio-biological variables, such as if a young boy has a sibling that's a sister, there's more likely to be dresses around, right?
当然，还有社会生物学变量，例如，如果一个小男孩有一个兄弟姐妹是姐妹，那么更有可能穿着裙子，对吧？
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
We controlled for that.
我们对此进行了控制。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
If he has two older brothers, there might be more rough and tumble play happening in the house.
如果他有两个哥哥，家里可能会发生更多的打闹游戏。
And I have some friends that are women who have older brothers, and those women are, some of them roll jujitsu or do-
我有一些朋友是有哥哥的女性，这些女性中的一些人会打柔术或做-
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I know some women who are only children who do martial arts and-
我认识一些练武术的独生女，并且——
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
fight.
战斗。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So, I think that none of this is deterministic-
所以，我认为这一切都不是确定性的——
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
as we know.
据我们所知。
I-
我-
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
But let me just add, we did control for the sex of the older sibling, and we also asked about the parents' attitude towards same-sex play.
但我要补充一点，我们确实控制了哥哥姐姐的性别，我们也询问了父母对同性游戏的态度。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
So how would you feel if your male child played with dolls?
那么，如果你的男孩玩洋娃娃，你会有什么感觉？
Would you be discouraging?
你会沮丧吗？
Would you encourage-- Because it has a lot to do with what's in the house.
你会鼓励吗——因为这与房子里的东西有很大关系。
If you say, "Does your child play with dolls?" Well, what if there were no dolls, right?
如果你问：“你的孩子玩洋娃娃吗？”好吧，如果没有娃娃怎么办？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This is super interesting to me.
这对我来说非常有趣。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I don't want to reveal too much, just because it's just an N of one.
我不想透露太多，因为这只是 N 的一。
But I grew up in a household where I have a sister, but then after a certain age, I received very strong messages about what sorts of play were gender appropriate.
但我是在一个有妹妹的家庭长大的，但到了一定年龄后，我收到了非常强烈的信息，告诉我什么样的游戏是适合性别的。
And I think I also just naturally defaulted to-- There were a bunch of boys that lived in my neighborhood.
我想我也很自然地默认了——有一群男孩住在我家附近。
They had older sisters, so all the sisters hung out together.
他们有姐姐，所以所有的姐妹都在一起出去玩。
It's kind of interesting.
这有点有趣。
And all the younger brothers pretty much hung out together.
所有的弟弟们几乎都在一起玩。
And the guys that didn't have siblings or had brothers for siblings.
还有那些没有兄弟姐妹或有兄弟姐妹的人。
So there was a really strong divergence.
所以存在很大的分歧。
But that was in the '70s and early '80s when things were, let's just say culture was more dimorphic then.
但那是在 70 年代和 80 年代初，当时的情况是，我们只能说当时的文化更加二态性。
Clearly.
清楚地。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There were television shows like "All in the Family," which the entire basis of the show was the wife going back to work and the husband being confused about it.
有一些电视节目，比如《全家福》，整个节目的基础是妻子回去工作，而丈夫对此感到困惑。
Nowadays, people would go like, "What?
如今，人们会说：“什么？
That's wild." I have to ask, because I know people are wondering, and I'm wondering, what are some non-pesticide sources-
那太疯狂了。”我必须问，因为我知道人们想知道，我也想知道，有哪些非农药来源 -
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Oh
哦
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
of phthalates that we have agency over, that we can take control over?
我们拥有代理权并可以控制的邻苯二甲酸盐？
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Right.
对。
So let me correct you.
所以让我纠正你。
It's not the sources of phthalates necessarily.
它不一定是邻苯二甲酸盐的来源。
Pesticides, there are phthalates in pesticides.
农药，农药中有邻苯二甲酸盐。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
But that's not the worst player in the story.
但这还不是故事中最差的球员。
If you look at the different classes of exposures that are hormonally active, right, pesticides are, phthalates are, bisphenols-
如果你看看不同类别的激素活性暴露，对吧，杀虫剂是，邻苯二甲酸盐是，双酚-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
...
...
like bisphenol A.
比如双酚A。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
BPA.
双酚A。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
BPA.
双酚A。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yep.
是的。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Certain metals are.
某些金属是。
There's the PFAS chemicals.
其中有 PFAS 化学物质。
There's all these different classes, right?
有这么多不同的课程，对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
And if we want to go in, excuse me, into what in our daily life exposes us to these things-
如果我们想深入了解一下日常生活中我们接触到的这些东西——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay
好的
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
...
...
that's another story-
那是另一个故事了——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
...
...
that we can talk about, but they're going to be different depending on the class, right?
我们可以讨论，但是根据班级的不同，它们会有所不同，对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So let's throw our arms around all of those for the moment, and I'll just ask you, given that you're an expert in this area, what are the top three to five sources of endocrine disruptors that we have agency over?
因此，让我们暂时拥抱所有这些，鉴于您是该领域的专家，我只想问您，我们负责管理的内分泌干扰物的前三到五个来源是什么？
And let's forget about pregnancy for the moment, since we're all out of the womb, if we're listening to this.
让我们暂时忘记怀孕，因为我们都已经离开了子宫，如果我们正在听这个的话。
Some people will be pregnant as they listen to it, but would you say it's drinking out of plastic bottles?
有些人一听就怀孕了，但是你说这是用塑料瓶喝的吗？
Is it laundry detergent?
是洗衣液吗？
Is it rubber tires that are cascading down on us through the air, and we're inhaling them?
是橡胶轮胎从空气中倾泻而下，然后被我们吸入吗？
Presumably all of the above, but which ones that we have agency over do you think are the most, let's just say, concerning where people could make better choices?
想必以上都是，但是您认为我们所代理的哪些是最多的，让我们说一下，关于人们可以在哪些方面做出更好的选择？
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
I would say foodborne exposures.
我想说的是食源性暴露。
Exposures in the food, in the food packaging, in the food storage, in the cooking utensils.
暴露于食品、食品包装、食品储存、炊具中。
We can go through the various things, but we're doing that all the time.
我们可以经历各种各样的事情，但我们一直在这样做。
We're eating all the time.
我们一直在吃东西。
We're getting food into us, and these are bringing in, in a way that we have some control over, some agency over.
我们正在将食物引入我们体内，而这些食物则以我们可以控制的方式引入一些代理。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
We can make changes in our foods.
我们可以改变我们的食物。
Very close to that is drink.
与此非常接近的是饮料。
Food and beverage.
食品和饮料。
So first of all, I've talked about this a lot.
首先，我已经谈过很多这个问题了。
I've written about it in my book.
我已经在我的书中写到了。
I'm also, as you know, involved in a movie where in the movie, that might be good time to talk about that.
如你所知，我还参与了一部电影，在电影中，这可能是谈论这个的好时机。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sure.
当然。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
What we do in the movie, the movie is about six couples that are infertile.
我们在电影中所做的，这部电影是关于六对不孕夫妇的。
Okay?
好的？
They haven't been able to conceive in 12 months.
他们已经12个月未能怀孕了。
That's the definition.
这就是定义。
And then a company that I work with, Million Marker out of Berkeley, has a trained staff that interviews them.
然后我工作的一家公司，来自伯克利的 Million Marker，有训练有素的员工来面试他们。
Not only them, but anyone who signs in to this company.
不仅是他们，还有所有登录这家公司的人。
Interviews them and asks them what they use.
采访他们并询问他们使用什么。
What do they use for their facial care?
他们用什么来进行面部护理？
What do they use for their shampoo?
他们用什么洗发水？
What do they use for their cleaning products and their laundry detergent?
他们使用什么清洁产品和洗衣粉？
And what do they store their food in?
他们用什么储存食物？
And on.
继续。
So this is long inventory that they take of all products that people are aware of using, okay?
这是他们对人们知道使用的所有产品进行的长期库存，好吗？
And based on that, we identify likely bad players in the list.
基于此，我们确定了列表中可能表现不佳的玩家。
So how we do that is another, we can talk about that later.
所以我们如何做到这一点是另一回事，我们可以稍后再讨论。
But then in the film, and in this little-- It's actually an experiment that I designed, and called an intervention, and we are then intervening in their exposures by changing out these things that they told us.
但在电影中，在这个小故事中——这实际上是我设计的一个实验，称为干预，然后我们通过改变他们告诉我们的这些东西来干预他们的暴露。
So we will tell them, "Don't use any product with fragrance," for example.
例如，我们会告诉他们，“不要使用任何带有香味的产品”。
That's a major source of exposure to phthalates.
这是接触邻苯二甲酸盐的主要来源。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Any product?
有什么产品吗？
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Any fragrance product.
任何香水产品。
If fragrance is added-
如果添加香料——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So no perfume, no lotions.
所以没有香水，没有乳液。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Soap with fragrance.
有香味的肥皂。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Even essential oil fragrances like lavender.
甚至薰衣草等精油香水。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Essential oil is a tricky-
精油是一种棘手的——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
It's a mix.
这是一个混合。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
It's a mix.
这是一个混合。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So that's guarded.
所以这是被守护的。
But anything, you know-
但任何事情，你知道——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Spray deodorants-
喷雾除臭剂-
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
roll-on deodorants.
走珠除臭剂。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Laundry detergent with-
洗衣粉含有-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Shampoo.
洗发水。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yep, in shampoo.
是的，在洗发水中。
If you can smell it, it's probably affecting your hormones.
如果你能闻到它的味道，它可能会影响你的荷尔蒙。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm so happy about this answer, not because I have any stake in any company related to fragrance-free stuff, but I have a very strong sense of smell, and I either love or hate smells, and I hate synthetic smells.
我对这个答案感到非常高兴，不是因为我在任何与无香料产品相关的公司拥有任何股份，而是因为我有非常强烈的嗅觉，我要么喜欢或讨厌气味，而且我讨厌合成气味。
Like going through the duty free, especially in a European airport-
就像经过免税店一样，尤其是在欧洲机场——
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
with all the perfumes.
和所有的香水。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I'm just I'm trying to hold my breath.
我只是想屏住呼吸。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
I know.
我知道。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It feels like I'm breathing poison.
我感觉就像吸入毒药一样。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
I know.
我知道。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well-
嗯-
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Well, you are, actually.
嗯，实际上你是。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yeah.
是的。
In some sense.
从某种意义上说。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And most soaps, right.
大多数肥皂，对吧。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Super interesting.
超级有趣。
So that's your primary intervention, is to tell them-
所以这就是你的主要干预措施，就是告诉他们——
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Exactly
正是如此
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
get rid of anything with fragrances.
扔掉任何带有香水的东西。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
No.
不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
That's only one thing we get rid of.
这只是我们摆脱的一件事。
So then we talk about how the plastics that they use to store their food.
然后我们讨论他们如何使用塑料来储存食物。
Food storage containers, try to get them to get rid of those if they're made of plastic.
食品储存容器，如果是塑料制成的，请尝试让它们扔掉。
We try to get them to get rid of their non-stick pans because of the PFAS chemicals that are in those, and so on and so forth.
我们试图让他们扔掉不粘锅，因为其中含有 PFAS 化学物质等等。
So we go through all steps of their life and try to tell them how to make changes that will reduce their exposure.
因此，我们会仔细检查他们生活中的各个阶段，并尝试告诉他们如何做出改变以减少接触。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But presumably also changes like if the man is obese, for instance, you might Have him walking a bit more.
但大概也会发生变化，例如，如果这个人肥胖，你可能会让他多走一点。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
No.
不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No?
没有？
You don't touch any of that?
这些你都不碰吗？
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Well, you see, Andrew, if we did that, we would be mixing up two interventions.
好吧，你看，安德鲁，如果我们这样做，我们就会混淆两种干预措施。
We would be mixing up an obesity intervention-
我们会混合肥胖干预——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I see.
我明白了。
This is a study.
这是一项研究。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
This is a study, right.
这是一项研究，对吧。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm sorry.
对不起。
I thought that this group is missioned with helping couples get pregnant.
我认为这个小组的使命是帮助夫妇怀孕。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
No, no.
不，不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
This is a study to look at what happens if you make these product-related changes.
这是一项研究，旨在了解如果您进行这些与产品相关的更改会发生什么。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Great.
太棒了。
Just product-related changes.
只是与产品相关的更改。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Right.
对。
Exactly.
确切地。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Love it.
喜欢它。
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thank you for that clarification.
谢谢你的澄清。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
We would love to do, and probably will do, another study, separate one, on obesity.
我们很乐意并且可能会做另一项关于肥胖的单独研究。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
And a lot of these chemicals, just to let you know, are obesogens.
想让你知道，这些化学物质中有很多都是致肥胖物质。
They increase obesity.
它们会增加肥胖。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
There's a book out called "Obesogens." You can read about them.
有一本叫做《Obesogens》的书。您可以阅读有关它们的内容。
And so, there is some overlap, so by reducing some of these chemicals that are in your food storage containers, you're also reducing obesogens.
因此，存在一些重叠，因此通过减少食物储存容器中的一些化学物质，您也可以减少致肥胖物质。
So it's not a clear yes/no. We gave them a box, each couple.
所以这不是一个明确的是/否。我们给了他们每对夫妇一个盒子。
I went to their house, six couples around the United States, with a big box, and in this box are these alternative products.
我去他们家，美国各地的六对夫妇，带着一个大盒子，这个盒子里就是这些替代产品。
And so, straws and bamboo spoons and $500 per box, I think it was, approximately.
所以，吸管和竹勺，每盒 500 美元，我想大约是。
It had to do with their personal exposure.
这与他们的个人曝光有关。
And then they made these changes.
然后他们做出了这些改变。
Now, unlike another study that you reported, they are, at the end, quite happy to keep doing this, by the way.
现在，与您报告的另一项研究不同，顺便说一下，他们最终很高兴继续这样做。
They love this.
他们喜欢这个。
They love doing this.
他们喜欢这样做。
It was so gratifying-
真是令人欣慰——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
...
...
to see that they felt, in many, many ways, their life got better.
看到他们在很多方面感觉自己的生活变得更好了。
I'm pretty careful in what I-- So I hesitate to say this because the data is not hard, but the impression is that they are happier.
我对我的事情非常谨慎——所以我犹豫是否要这么说，因为数据并不难，但给人的印象是他们更快乐。
They're sleeping better.
他们睡得更好了。
They report more energy and so on and so forth, having made these changes.
他们报告说，做出这些改变后，他们的精力更加充沛等等。
We need to follow that up with hard data.
我们需要用硬数据来跟进。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
I'm not writing that.
我不是在写那个。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
But I can say, and I can write, that they felt very positive and we're going to go back and see if they did continue.
但我可以说，我可以写，他们感觉非常积极，我们会回去看看他们是否继续。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
We need to do that.
我们需要这样做。
But at the end of the three months, and hopefully in six months, they are still making these changes in their lives.
但在三个月结束时，希望在六个月后，他们仍在生活中做出这些改变。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Did you collect data on whether or not they were able to conceive after having made these changes?
您是否收集了她们在做出这些改变后是否能够怀孕的数据？
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yes, we did, but I actually can't talk about that.
是的，我们做到了，但我实际上不能谈论这个。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Can't talk about it until the babies are born.
等孩子出生了才可以谈论这件事。
Just kidding.
只是在开玩笑。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
And we did get their sperm count at the beginning and the end and had some very interesting data on that, which-
我们确实在开始和结束时获得了他们的精子数量，并获得了一些非常有趣的数据，其中-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Too early to report.
报告还太早。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Too early to report.
报告还太早。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Let me ask you this then, and I appreciate not wanting to share specific results until-
那么让我问你这个问题，我很高兴不想分享具体结果，直到-
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
all the data are in and it's published.
所有数据都已输入并已发布。
If somebody listening were having trouble conceiving-
如果听的人有怀孕困难-
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Mm
毫米
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
for 12 months or more, are the sorts of replacement product interventions that you're talking about here things that you would at least feel comfortable saying might be a good place to start or to explore?
在 12 个月或更长时间内，您在这里谈论的各种替代产品干预措施是否是您至少愿意说可能是一个开始或探索的好地方？
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
There's no harm.
没有什么坏处。
None of the changes are putting people at risk or doing anything that could be harmful to them.
所有这些变化都没有将人们置于危险之中，也没有做任何可能对他们有害的事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
I'm sure of that.
我确信这一点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
We're very careful.
我们非常小心。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And some are going to be cost-saving.
有些会节省成本。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I think that's worth-- Like drinking out of plastic bottles far less, if at all.
我认为这是值得的——就像减少用塑料瓶喝水一样，如果有的话。
Just for reasons related to wanting to reduce waste, I use a mason jar or I use these or ceramic.
只是出于与减少浪费相关的原因，我使用玻璃瓶或使用这些或陶瓷。
Although you'll probably tell me that the lining on the ceramic mug might have endocrine disruptors.
尽管您可能会告诉我陶瓷杯的内衬可能含有内分泌干扰物。
No, I don't-
不，我不-
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
I don't think so.
我不这么认为。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay, great.
好的，太好了。
Okay.
好的。
Well, then I'll keep drinking.
嗯，那我就继续喝吧。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But it's very reassuring to me that there are things that we can do in terms of cost-saving elimination or replacement of consumables-
但令我非常放心的是，我们可以在节省成本、消除或更换消耗品方面做一些事情——
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Buying in bulk
批量购买
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that can improve endocrine status, maybe fertility also.
这可以改善内分泌状况，也许还可以改善生育能力。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
If you can buy in bulk-
如果你可以批量购买——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
...
...
bring a container to the store and fill it up, a glass jar, instead of buying something in plastic-
带一个容器到商店并装满它，一个玻璃罐，而不是购买塑料制品 -
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm
毫米
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
...
...
you're winning on both ends because those bulk products are cheaper.
你在两端都赢了，因为那些散装产品更便宜。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
One of the things I did with the couples was go shop with them, and we went around and we looked at various products.
我和这对夫妇一起做的一件事就是和他们一起去购物，我们四处走动，查看各种产品。
And, for example, we looked at the produce and there was the option to buy freestanding bunches of lettuce, heads of lettuce, or wrapped up in plastic bunches of lettuce.
例如，我们查看了产品，可以选择购买独立的生菜串、生菜头或包裹在塑料串中的生菜。
And I said, "Let's compare the price." I actually didn't know until we did it, but the freestanding unwrapped lettuce was cheaper.
我说：“我们来比较一下价格吧。”事实上，直到我们做了之后我才知道，但独立式未包装的生菜更便宜。
And I think that makes sense, because there's work involved in wrapping it up in the container and so on.
我认为这是有道理的，因为需要将其包装在容器中等等。
And so not only are you getting something that's more toxic, but it's more expensive.
因此，你不仅会得到有毒的东西，而且价格也会更高。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
When it comes to reducing BPA exposure-
当谈到减少 BPA 暴露时——
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and some of these forever chemicals-
其中一些永远的化学物质-
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that you mentioned, seems like reducing fluid intake from plastic vessels is going to be number one.
您提到的，似乎减少塑料容器中的液体摄入量将是第一位的。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
The primary source of BPA is in the lining of cans.
BPA 的主要来源是罐内衬。
So any drink or soup or anything that comes in a can is going to be-
所以任何饮料、汤或任何罐装的东西都会——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Any can.
任何都可以。
All cans
所有罐头
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
...
...
any can, unless it's a high-end elite company that's made the change from BPA to an alternative lining, and they'll say that.
任何人都可以，除非是高端精英公司从 BPA 改为替代衬里，他们会这么说。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
And by the way, BPA has some bad relatives, such as BPS and BPF, and maybe you'd be interested in this story.
顺便说一句，BPA 有一些不好的亲戚，例如 BPS 和 BPF，也许您会对这个故事感兴趣。
So when it came out that BPA was estrogenic, which is what it is, and by the way, it's kind of the evil twin of phthalates because phthalates are anti-androgenic and BPA is estrogenic, and phthalates make plastic soft and BPA makes plastic hard.
因此，当 BPA 具有雌激素作用时，事实就是如此，顺便说一句，它是邻苯二甲酸盐的邪恶双胞胎，因为邻苯二甲酸盐具有抗雄激素作用，而 BPA 具有雌激素作用，邻苯二甲酸盐使塑料变软，BPA 使塑料变硬。
You don't want either.
你也不想要。
Okay.
好的。
So when this came out that this was a bad thing, the manufacturers started selling things that say BPA-free.
因此，当事实证明这是一件坏事时，制造商开始销售声称不含 BPA 的产品。
I'm sure you've seen that.
我相信你已经看到了。
The trick is that instead of BPA, they use BPS-
诀窍是他们使用 BPS 代替 BPA
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sneaky rats
鬼鬼祟祟的老鼠
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
...
...
and BPF.
和带通滤波器。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So sneaky.
太狡猾了。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
And these are chemicals, these are lookalikes, they're analogs, and they're just as harmful.
这些都是化学物质，它们是相似的，它们是类似物，而且它们同样有害。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sneaky.
鬼鬼祟祟的。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
So-
所以——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but it's just so dirty.
我不是阴谋论者，但它实在是太肮脏了。
It's so dirty.
太脏了。
Right now is a really important time to be having this discussion because there's been a lot of movement on Capitol Hill, and there's been a lot of movement on social media about trying to call attention to metabolic syndromes and highly processed foods and issues like this, and it's become, unfortunately, politicized.
现在是进行这种讨论的非常重要的时刻，因为国会山发生了很多运动，社交媒体上也发生了很多运动，试图引起人们对代谢综合征和高度加工食品以及类似问题的关注，不幸的是，它已经被政治化。
I hear this stuff, and I just think to myself, the only good faith that we can really trust is our own desire to be healthier and to have our families and friends be healthier, and to try and consume and not consume things on the basis of that.
我听到这些话，我心里想，我们真正可以信任的唯一真诚就是我们自己想要变得更健康、让我们的家人和朋友更健康的愿望，并在此基础上尝试消费而不是消费东西。
My belief is that we can't trust any larger agency to either protect or harm us.
我的信念是，我们不能信任任何更大的机构来保护或伤害我们。
They're going to do what they're going to do.
他们将做他们要做的事。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We just have to be informed.
我们只需要被告知。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
As opposed to trying to dismantle the systems that led to this, which just seems infinitely complicated.
与试图拆除导致这种情况的系统相反，这似乎无限复杂。
Maybe you can do that, but I'm far less optimistic.
也许你可以做到，但我远没有那么乐观。
And now that I'm 49 years old, I can say things like, "Now that I'm 49, I feel like..." But what you're saying is really important.
现在我已经 49 岁了，我可以说这样的话，“现在我已经 49 岁了，我感觉……”但是你所说的真的很重要。
If I look at a can, it says BPA free, doesn't mean anything.
如果我看一下罐子，上面写着不含 BPA，但没有任何意义。
It could have BPSs or other endocrine disruptors.
它可能含有 BPS 或其他内分泌干扰物。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So drinking out of glass vessels-
所以用玻璃器皿喝水-
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
drinking out of ceramic vessels-
用陶瓷器皿饮用——
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Metal
金属
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
metal, but not cans, not metal cans, not aluminum cans.
金属，但不是罐头，不是金属罐，不是铝罐。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Right.
对。
Not cans, no.
不是罐头，不是。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Goodness.
善良。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
But-
但是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay
好的
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
...
...
you can get a metal water bottle that's not lined with BPA.
您可以购买不含 BPA 内衬的金属水瓶。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Steel.
钢。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Steel.
钢。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Steel.
钢。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And is it true that microwave safe just means that the plastic won't melt in the microwave, but it's-
微波炉安全确实意味着塑料不会在微波炉中融化，但它是-
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Do, never put plastic in a microwave.
千万不要将塑料放入微波炉中。
So here's the story.
故事是这样的。
The BPA, phthalates, plasticizers are added to the plastic, but they're not chemically bound to it.
BPA、邻苯二甲酸盐、增塑剂被添加到塑料中，但它们并没有与塑料发生化学结合。
Okay?
好的？
So if you put anything in a container that has these chemicals in it, and then put it in a hot environment, they will come out of the plastic and go into the food.
因此，如果你将任何东西放入含有这些化学物质的容器中，然后将其放入高温环境中，它们就会从塑料中析出并进入食物中。
So if you, in a microwave or you put your bottle in the car and the sun comes in and it warms up the bottle, and then the stuff goes into your water.
因此，如果您将瓶子放在微波炉中或将瓶子放入汽车中，阳光照射进来，瓶子就会变暖，然后这些东西就会进入您的水中。
You don't want to mix these chemicals and your food, but if you do, the worst thing is to do it in a heated environment.
您不想将这些化学物质与您的食物混合，但如果这样做，最糟糕的事情就是在加热的环境中进行。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think about all the food that was consumed in college in the '90s and 2000s, like the Cup of Noodles with the styrofoam, the-
我想起 90 年代和 2000 年代大学里吃的所有食物，比如泡沫塑料面条，-
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
things in packaging.
包装中的东西。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Stuff like that is pretty straightforward to eliminate once one understands and decides.
一旦人们理解并做出决定，类似的事情就很容易消除。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Then we start getting into the more nuanced thing of like, okay, you can buy a really nice tasting, anyway, grass-fed, grass-finished steak, but it's wrapped in plastic.
然后我们开始讨论更微妙的事情，比如，好吧，你可以买一块味道非常好的，无论如何，草饲的、草成品的牛排，但它是用塑料包裹的。
Well, or you can go to the butcher, but most people don't have time to go to the butcher.
好吧，或者你可以去肉店，但大多数人没有时间去肉店。
Or you can get strawberries at the farmers market, blueberries at the farmers market, which is what I try to do, but sometimes I buy strawberries at the market, and they have those plastic flip-top things.
或者你可以在农贸市场买草莓，在农贸市场买蓝莓，这就是我尝试做的，但有时我在市场上买草莓，他们有那些塑料翻盖的东西。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And of course, I recycle the plastic.
当然，我回收塑料。
How bad is it if you rinse the strawberries off with good clean water that were in the plastic container?
如果你用塑料容器里的干净水冲洗草莓会有多糟糕？
Are you s-
你是——
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
We have to do that experiment.
我们必须做那个实验。
I don't know.
我不知道。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
So it sounds to me like not drinking out of cans, not drinking out of plastic bottles.
所以对我来说，这听起来就像不喝罐头饮料，不喝塑料瓶饮料。
It's going to be not microwaving plastic ever.
它将不再是微波炉塑料。
And in general, just avoiding plastic intake.
一般来说，只要避免摄入塑料即可。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
If you can afford it, buy organic.
如果你负担得起，就买有机的。
So you're going to avoid the pesticides, and then phthalates are actually added to pesticides.
所以你要避免使用杀虫剂，然后邻苯二甲酸盐实际上被添加到杀虫剂中。
And they're added because they increase absorption.
添加它们是因为它们可以增加吸收。
So you want your pesticides to get into the plant, right?
那么您希望农药进入植物中，对吧？
And to kill the bad stuff and insects.
并杀死坏东西和昆虫。
And so the same property of phthalates that makes them good for pesticides also makes them good for our hand cream.
因此，邻苯二甲酸盐的特性使其适合用作杀虫剂，也适合用作我们的护手霜。
Just mentioning.
只是提一下。
Absorption.
吸收。
Anything that's absorbed in the body is going to have phthalates in it.
任何被身体吸收的东西都会含有邻苯二甲酸盐。
And it also holds scent and color, so it's added to those scents, and it's also added to your lipstick and to your color, whatever you put on your face, and so on.
它还含有气味和颜色，所以它被添加到这些气味中，它也被添加到你的口红和你的颜色中，无论你涂在脸上的什么东西，等等。
Anything that holds scent and color, that's going to be phthalates.
任何有气味和颜色的东西都是邻苯二甲酸盐。
Sorry.
对不起。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I've been accused online of being a sunscreen truther.
我在网上被指责为防晒霜说真话。
I'm not a sunscreen truther.
我不是防晒霜真理者。
I'm going to keep repeating this as many times as I can.
我将尽可能多次地重复这句话。
I understand that UV damage to the skin can cause certain cancers.
据我所知，紫外线对皮肤的伤害可能会导致某些癌症。
I get that.
我明白了。
I agree with that.
我同意这一点。
The data are pretty clear to me based on having researched this pretty extensively and talked to many, many people, including dermatologists, that mineral-based sunscreens like zinc oxide and titanium dioxide, but certainly zinc oxide, are safer than the chemical sunscreens.
基于对这一问题进行了相当广泛的研究，并与包括皮肤科医生在内的许多人交谈，这些数据对我来说非常清楚，氧化锌和二氧化钛等矿物防晒霜，但肯定是氧化锌，比化学防晒霜更安全。
A lot of people get upset when I say that, and they say, "Well, in Europe, there's tons of evidence that the chemicals-based sunscreens are never safe." Okay, fine.
当我这么说时，很多人都会感到不安，他们说：“嗯，在欧洲，有大量证据表明基于化学物质的防晒霜从来都不安全。”好吧，好吧。
You use them.
你使用它们。
I'm not going to.
我不会。
The point being that UV damage is bad.
重点是紫外线的伤害很严重。
There are ways to protect ourselves from the sun, including physical barriers like clothing, hats, et cetera.
有很多方法可以保护我们自己免受阳光照射，包括衣服、帽子等物理屏障。
But pretty much all sunscreen that I'm aware of is designed to be absorbed.
但据我所知，几乎所有防晒霜都是为了被吸收而设计的。
So what do we do if we want to get some UV protection from whatever kind of sunscreen we deem safe for ourselves, but we want to avoid these exposures to these other things?
那么，如果我们想从我们认为对自己安全的任何类型的防晒霜中获得一些紫外线防护，但我们又想避免接触这些其他东西，我们该怎么办呢？
What do we do?
我们该怎么办？
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do we have to hunt really carefully for the right sunscreen?
我们是否必须非常仔细地寻找合适的防晒霜？
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yeah.
是的。
I think that's a good idea.
我认为这是个好主意。
Are you familiar with Environmental Working Group?
您了解环境工作组吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is it another one out of the Bay Area?
是湾区的另一家吗？
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
No.
不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, okay.
哦，好吧。
All right.
好的。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
I don't know actually where they are.
我实际上不知道他们在哪里。
They're pretty big.
它们很大。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sounds familiar, but-
听起来很熟悉，但是——
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
no, I can't say I'm familiar with them.
不，我不能说我和他们很熟悉。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
So they have consumer guides.
所以他们有消费者指南。
So Environmental Working Group, I'm not part of them, but I like their work.
所以环境工作组，我不是他们的成员，但我喜欢他们的工作。
And in these consumer guides, you can put in the product, and they have categories.
而在这些消费指南中，你可以把产品放进去，它们是有类别的。
You can put in sunscreen.
可以涂防晒霜。
If we had time, we could do it right now.
如果我们有时间，我们现在就可以做。
And then you can put the name in for your sunscreen, and it'll give you a number.
然后你可以输入你的防晒霜的名称，它会给你一个号码。
And then if the number is less than 10, it'll tell you why.
如果数字小于 10，它会告诉您原因。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Are they independent of any-
它们是否独立于任何——
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
fund-
基金-
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
They're totally independent
他们是完全独立的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
funding.
资金。
Yeah.
是的。
That question will probably come up for you, too.
您可能也会遇到这个问题。
People will say, "Where does she get her funding?" People get very suspicious about this.
人们会问：“她从哪里获得资金？”人们对此非常怀疑。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
I can tell you.
我可以告诉你。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, that'd be great.
是的，那就太好了。
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So I am a tenured professor at Mount Sinai, get some salary there because I'm only part-time.
所以我是西奈山的终身教授，在那里拿一些薪水，因为我只是兼职。
And I have a funder, one funder, who funded my sperm decline, second sperm decline analysis, and the publicity of my book.
我有一个资助者，一个资助者，他资助了我的精子衰退、第二次精子衰退分析以及我的书的宣传。
So it's a foundation.
所以这是一个基础。
I won't-
我不会-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So it's philanthropy.
所以这是慈善事业。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yeah, it's philanthropy.
是的，这就是慈善事业。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yeah.
是的。
And it's actually not a lot of money.
而且其实钱也不是很多。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And so there's no reason to think that anything that you're telling us is linked to the food industry or an alternative-
因此，没有理由认为您告诉我们的任何事情都与食品行业或其他行业有关-
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
I-
我-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
product or anything.
产品或任何东西。
Yeah
是啊
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
...
...
I'm very, very careful not to endorse any product-
我非常非常小心不认可任何产品-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Great
太棒了
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
...
...
because I don't want that complication.
因为我不想让事情变得复杂。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Thanks for clarifying that.
感谢您澄清这一点。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I wasn't suspicious, but-
我并没有怀疑，但是——
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Right.
对。
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
but I think nowadays people have just been taught to, appropriately so-
但我认为现在人们刚刚被教导要，适当地如此-
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
they've been taught to say, "Well, wait, where does this funding come from?" Because a lot of the studies that led to the food pyramid, for instance, people were under the impression that somehow that was biased by companies that were funding the work.
他们被教导要说：“等等，这笔资金从哪里来？”例如，因为许多导致食物金字塔的研究，人们的印象是，资助这项工作的公司在某种程度上存在偏见。
And I don't know, I haven't done the forensics on that.
我不知道，我还没有对此进行过取证。
I don't have the time or the energy.
我没有时间或精力。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
All I know is that when it comes to what people eat, when it comes to what people put on their body, it becomes a very personal thing, and it's woven in with a lot of psychological and emotional issues.
我所知道的是，当谈到人们吃什么，当谈到人们穿什么时，它变成了一个非常个人化的事情，并且与很多心理和情感问题交织在一起。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Okay.
好的。
What are a few things that you do and/or avoid in light of what you know about these endocrine disruptors?
根据您对这些内分泌干扰物的了解，您会做和/或避免哪些事情？
And by the way, it goes without saying that you're in spectacular cognitive and physical shape for any age, but it's really remarkable.
顺便说一句，不言而喻的是，对于任何年龄的人来说，你的认知和身体状况都非常出色，但这确实很了不起。
I feel comfortable sharing this because someone else published it online recently.
我很乐意分享这个，因为最近有人在网上发布了它。
You are soon to enjoy your what birthday?
您即将迎来什么生日？
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
89th.
89日。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
89th birthday.
89 岁生日。
Amazing.
惊人的。
And with all the talk about longevity, cognitive and physical longevity, everyone's thinking, including me, like, "What does she do?" "Well, she avoids all these endocrine disruptors." And she has a wonderfully rich life of curiosity and other things.
当人们谈论长寿、认知寿命和身体寿命时，包括我在内的每个人都在想，“她是做什么的？” “嗯，她避免了所有这些内分泌干扰物。”她的生活非常丰富，充满了好奇心和其他事情。
But yeah, what are some other things that you do and avoid in light of what you know, for which there may or may not be a controlled study, but I think we're all just curious.
但是，是的，根据您所知道的情况，您会做和避免哪些其他事情，可能会或可能不会进行对照研究，但我认为我们都只是好奇。
We'll frame this as what you do.
我们将按照您所做的进行设计。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
So, water.
所以，水。
Our water.
我们的水。
I worry about the water.
我担心水。
I studied water for a long time in my past life.
我前世研究水很长时间。
So we actually distill our water.
所以我们实际上是蒸馏水。
So we have a tabletop distiller.
所以我们有一个台式蒸馏器。
My husband Steven cleans it out.
我丈夫史蒂文把它清理干净。
There's a lot of gunk in it, by the way.
顺便说一句，里面有很多垃圾。
Even though it's San Francisco that has clean water, at the end of the day, after you've distilled the water, there's a lot of gunk in it.
尽管旧金山有干净的水，但一天结束时，蒸馏水后，里面仍然有很多杂质。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So you distill the water, so this is not reverse osmosis.
所以你蒸馏水，所以这不是反渗透。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
No. Distilling.
不，蒸馏。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So it's steam distilled, and then it condenses in a glass container, and then we put that in glass containers in the fridge.
所以它是蒸汽蒸馏的，然后在玻璃容器中冷凝，然后我们将其放入冰箱的玻璃容器中。
And it tastes really good, by the way.
顺便说一句，味道真的很好。
Really.
真的。
Somebody was just over, and he said, "This tastes like melted snow."
有人刚过来，他说：“这尝起来像融化的雪。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
I thought it was lovely.
我觉得这很可爱。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And you use that for drinking-
你用它来喝酒-
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Everything
一切
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
for coffee, for tea.
用来喝咖啡，用来喝茶。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Everything.
一切。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
For cooking, too.
也可以用来做饭。
If you make rice, you're using distilled-
如果你做大米，你使用的是蒸馏的-
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Actually, no.
事实上，没有。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No.
不。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
No. But for ice cubes and whenever I can think about it.
不，但是为了冰块，只要我能想到它。
We can't use too much because you'd be too busy all with distilled-
我们不能用太多，因为你会忙于蒸馏-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
But he does it once a day, and it's just the two of us.
但他每天做一次，而且只有我们两个人。
So water is important.
所以水很重要。
We try to leave our shoes at the door.
我们尝试把鞋子留在门口。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Tell me about that one.
告诉我关于那个的事情。
What's that one?
那是什么？
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Well, dust that you bring in contains a lot of particularly the PFAS chemicals and-
嗯，你带进来的灰尘含有很多，特别是 PFAS 化学物质，而且——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh
哦
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
...
...
so that's actually, I'm not 100% good on that, but we try to do that.
所以实际上，我并不是百分百擅长这一点，但我们尝试这样做。
And I'm careful with the products I put on my face.
我对涂在脸上的产品很小心。
I check them out the way I suggested, Environmental Working Group.
我按照环境工作组建议的方式检查它们。
And I go to the farmers market.
我还去农贸市场。
I always buy organic.
我总是买有机的。
But I know that's a cost issue for some people, and an availability issue for some people, but in San Francisco, you can do that.
但我知道这对某些人来说是成本问题，对某些人来说是可用性问题，但在旧金山，你可以做到这一点。
Some areas where I don't do more of what I should, I think, I'm starting to be aware of the chemicals in clothing.
我认为，在某些领域我没有做更多我应该做的事情，我开始意识到衣服中的化学物质。
We haven't talked about that, but turns out there's a lot of, particularly in, it's a problem for workout wear because you're absorbing so much.
我们还没有讨论过这个问题，但事实证明有很多问题，特别是对于运动服来说这是一个问题，因为你吸收了太多东西。
You're sweaty, you're hot, and you're bringing these chemicals into your body.
你出汗了，你很热，你正在将这些化学物质带入你的身体。
And that may be one of the interventions that we do, get a bunch of athletes to use safe clothing and traditional clothing and see what their body burden is.
这可能是我们所做的干预措施之一，让一群运动员穿着安全服装和传统服装，看看他们的身体负担有多大。
That's how you know.
你就是这样知道的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So, erring toward cotton as opposed to synthetic-
因此，选择棉花而不是合成纤维是错误的——
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Synthetics
合成材料
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
materials.
材料。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Right.
对。
And the dyes are important.
染料很重要。
So you want maybe plant-based dyes.
所以你可能需要植物性染料。
It's not my area of expertise.
这不是我的专业领域。
I have a colleague who I work with on this, and I'll go with her advice.
我有一位同事在这方面与我一起工作，我会采纳她的建议。
But I'm just saying that's another area that I think people will soon be paying attention to.
但我只是说这是我认为人们很快就会关注的另一个领域。
There's also the area that is much more difficult, which is what's in building materials and furniture.
还有一个更困难的领域，那就是建筑材料和家具。
But a lot of these PFAS and the flame retardants are in our furniture and in our building materials, and trying to think about how to build I was asked about safety in a new village that's being built in California, by the way.
但很多 PFAS 和阻燃剂存在于我们的家具和建筑材料中，顺便说一句，在尝试思考如何建造时，我被问及加州正在建造的一个新村庄的安全问题。
And it's really challenging to think about if you were going to do this right, and you were going to build a town that was toxic-free, how would you do that?
想想如果你要正确地做这件事，并且你要建造一个无毒的城镇，你会怎么做？
I'm thinking about that.
我正在考虑这个。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
I'm thinking about the opener of "The Simpsons" and doing the exact opposite, where in the opener of "The Simpsons," there's a three-eyed fish, and there's the chemical plant.
我正在考虑《辛普森一家》的开场，并做了完全相反的事情，在《辛普森一家》的开场中，有一条三眼鱼，还有化工厂。
And I'm just thinking, you just look at the opener of "The Simpsons," you do the inverse of everything that's there.
我只是在想，你只要看看《辛普森一家》的开场，你就会做与那里的一切相反的事情。
The inverse of everything that's there, including alcohol intake- ...
一切事物的反面，包括酒精摄入量——......
which is robust on "The Simpsons."
这在《辛普森一家》中表现强劲。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Right.
正确的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But interesting.
但很有趣。
So, and when it comes to food sourcing, but non-fruit, non-vegetable food sourcing, is there anything we can do?
那么，说到食品采购，但非水果、非蔬菜食品采购，我们能做些什么呢？
It's so hard for people to get eggs from farms.
人们从农场获得鸡蛋非常困难。
You can if you go to a farmers market, but this stuff can get pretty tricky, pretty expensive.
如果你去农贸市场就可以，但是这些东西可能会变得非常棘手，而且非常昂贵。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And most people listening are not going to be living in Sonoma where they might have a neighbor that has chickens or something.
大多数聆听的人不会住在索诺玛，在那里他们可能有一个养鸡或其他东西的邻居。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's a hard problem.
这是一个难题。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
It is a hard problem, and I think maybe people asking for it more would help.
这是一个难题，我想也许人们提出更多要求会有所帮助。
I don't know.
我不知道。
In San Francisco, I'm lucky, because I can just get on the phone, Fresh Direct, order, and I know it's okay.
在旧金山，我很幸运，因为我可以打电话，Fresh Direct，订购，而且我知道没问题。
But I know that's not the case everywhere.
但我知道并非所有地方都是如此。
So, I think being aware, honestly, is a really big step.
所以，老实说，我认为意识到这一点是非常大的一步。
If you are aware that this is something you want to change, you will find ways to change it.
如果你意识到这是你想要改变的事情，你就会找到改变它的方法。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's interesting because a few years back, there was a lot of discussion about dyes in children's toys, in particular, toys from overseas.
这很有趣，因为几年前，有很多关于儿童玩具，特别是海外玩具中的染料的讨论。
Right?
正确的？
Remember, young babies are always gnawing on stuff-
请记住，小婴儿总是会啃东西——
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and teething.
和出牙。
And there was a lot of attention, like, "Hey, what's in these sippy cups?" And my understanding is toys and sippy cups, and my understanding is that BPAs were banned from sippy cups.
引起了很多关注，比如，“嘿，这些吸管杯里有什么？”我的理解是玩具和吸管杯，我的理解是吸管杯禁止含有 BPA。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Phthalates.
邻苯二甲酸盐。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The phthalates.
邻苯二甲酸盐。
Excuse me.
打扰一下。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Based on my work.
根据我的工作。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Based on your work.
根据你的工作。
Thank you so much.
太感谢了。
Thank you for the clarification-
谢谢你的澄清-
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
That's okay
没关系
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
truly, and for the work that led to that.
确实如此，以及为此所做的工作。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We have this, thankfully, innate reflex to protect our young, as does most every species.
值得庆幸的是，我们有这种与生俱来的本能来保护我们的后代，就像大多数物种一样。
Thank goodness.
谢天谢地。
And we know that baby skin is more absorbent than older skin.
我们知道婴儿皮肤比老年皮肤更容易吸收。
And so there are literally laws in place and restrictions in place to make sure that this stuff is minimized in young kids.
因此，确实有法律和限制来确保年幼的孩子最大限度地减少这些东西。
But then we sort of, after age 12, we're kind of like, "Okay, well, it's a free-for-all.
但在 12 岁之后，我们有点像，“好吧，好吧，这是一场混战。
It depends on your budget, where you go." And so we can't rely on governing bodies to do this.
这取决于你的预算和你要去的地方。”因此，我们不能依赖管理机构来做到这一点。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But I think it's a useful conversation, especially given your relationship to Scandinavia, which is a fun one to elaborate on.
但我认为这是一次有用的对话，特别是考虑到您与斯堪的纳维亚半岛的关系，详细阐述这一点很有趣。
To illustrate some of the discrepancy between the US and Europe, what sorts of chemicals are banned in Europe, in food, in lotions, et cetera, that you're aware of, that are prominent here in the US?
为了说明美国和欧洲之间的一些差异，您知道在欧洲、食品、乳液等中哪些化学物质是被禁止的，而这些化学物质在美国很常见？
Maybe that's a good filter to place some of this choice-making through.
也许这是一个很好的过滤器，可以帮助我们做出一些选择。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Europe has had a policy called Reach, and under Reach, you have to show that a chemical is safe before it's put into the marketplace.
欧洲有一项名为“Reach”的政策，根据“Reach”，您必须在将化学品投入市场之前证明其是安全的。
So the way our system is here, is put in the marketplace, and then if somebody gets worried about it, they might do a study, they might find harm.
所以我们的系统在这里的方式是放在市场上，然后如果有人担心它，他们可能会进行研究，他们可能会发现伤害。
Remember how long it took me to find that phthalate connection?
还记得我花了多长时间才找到邻苯二甲酸酯的联系吗？
It was 10 years.
那是10年了。
Two studies, 10 years, $10 million, by the way.
顺便说一下，两项研究，10 年，1000 万美元。
So if you're going to wait for that, I don't know.
所以我不知道你是否要等待。
Given the number of chemicals out there, 80,000 or more, forget it.
考虑到化学品的数量，有 80,000 种或更多，算了吧。
So, I think the Reach policy of testing before something's put in the market is making a big difference in Europe, and I think that's one reason why they're much better off.
因此，我认为在将产品投放市场之前进行测试的 Reach 政策在欧洲产生了很大的影响，我认为这也是他们的情况变得更好的原因之一。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Are those animal tests, or animal and human tests that they're doing over there?
他们在那里进行的是动物测试，还是动物和人体测试？
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Whatever defines safety.
无论定义什么安全。
It depends on the chemical, it depends on what the product is.
这取决于化学品，取决于产品是什么。
I can't answer that in general.
我无法笼统地回答这个问题。
But-
但是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So that might be a good avenue for changing legislature here, right?
所以这可能是改变立法机构的一个好途径，对吧？
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
To install something similar to Reach.
安装类似于 Reach 的东西。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Absolutely, but it's not going to happen, I don't think.
绝对会，但我认为这不会发生。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No?
没有？
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
No-
不-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Why?
为什么？
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
...
...
because there's too many forces against that.
因为反对的力量太多了。
It's very hard for manufacturers to make changes.
制造商很难做出改变。
I'll give you one example.
我给你举一个例子。
So you know that, you might not know, but should know, that phthalates are very prevalent in the hospital setting.
所以您知道，您可能不知道，但应该知道，邻苯二甲酸盐在医院环境中非常普遍。
If you think of a tube, to dialysis, to chemotherapy, to IV, that's all phthalates, right?
如果你想到一根管子、透析、化疗、静脉注射，那都是邻苯二甲酸盐，对吗？
And that's going into your body.
那会进入你的身体。
And there was recently a bill passed in California that DEHP could not be in IV bags, which is fantastic.
最近加利福尼亚州通过了一项法案，规定 DEHP 不能用于静脉注射袋中，这真是太棒了。
A success.
成功了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In the actual bag?
在实际的包里吗？
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The bags could not contain these endocrine disruptors?
袋子里不可能含有这些内分泌干扰物吧？
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
DEHP.
邻苯二甲酸二己酯。
Yes.
是的。
DEHP specifically.
特别是 DEHP。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
DEHP.
邻苯二甲酸二己酯。
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Diethylhexyl phthalate, the most anti-androgenic phthalate.
邻苯二甲酸二乙基己酯，最具抗雄激素作用的邻苯二甲酸酯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Got it.
明白了。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
So, that was a great step forward, but that's one chemical, right?
所以，这是向前迈出的一大步，但那只是一种化学品，对吗？
In one product, and that was a battle.
在一个产品中，那是一场战斗。
So you see how hard it is to do this.
所以你知道做到这一点有多么困难。
Extremely hard.
极其艰难。
There's a company, B.
有一家公司，B.
Braun, which makes hospital products, and they are very forward-thinking, and they set up a factory in Florida to make alternative IV bags out of another product, polyolefin.
生产医院产品的博朗公司非常具有前瞻性，他们在佛罗里达州设立了一家工厂，用另一种产品聚烯烃生产替代静脉输液袋。
And the problem is that we're not sure about the safety of polyolefin.
问题是我们不确定聚烯烃的安全性。
So it gets really difficult.
所以这变得非常困难。
You can say remove DEHP, but now we scientists have to say, what does it mean for a chemical to be safe?
你可以说去除DEHP，但现在我们科学家必须说，化学品安全意味着什么？
And we don't know that.
我们不知道这一点。
I don't mean to disillusion you and your listeners-
我并不是想让你和你的听众失望——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, that's okay
不，没关系
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
...
...
but that's a huge challenge that we're up against.
但这是我们面临的一个巨大挑战。
We know it's safer, and we know what the bad actors are, and we know the things we don't want to be exposed to, but we have to be careful when we think about what do we want to put in instead.
我们知道它更安全，我们知道坏人是什么，我们知道我们不想接触的东西，但当我们考虑我们想要放入什么时，我们必须小心。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Does that-- Yeah.
是吗——是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Now I'm thinking about this, a former president of Stanford, who also happened to be a family friend years ago, he since passed, Don Kennedy, when he retired as president of Stanford, my understanding is that he went and directed the FDA.
现在我在想这个，斯坦福大学的前校长，几年前他也恰好是我的家庭朋友，他去世了，唐·肯尼迪，当他从斯坦福大学校长的职位上退休时，我的理解是他去领导了FDA。
And I was just thinking to myself, when did this happen?
我只是在想，这是什么时候发生的？
Because I know he was super into health.
因为我知道他非常注重健康。
He was an avid runner.
他是一位狂热的跑步者。
He was very fit well into his 70s.
他已经70多岁了，身体非常健康。
Yeah, hip replacement, kept running, or maybe it was a knee replacement.
是的，髋关节置换术，继续跑步，或者也许是膝关节置换术。
I don't know.
我不知道。
The guy was obsessed with health.
这家伙痴迷于健康。
And so I don't think that there's a lack of interest in health at the level of things like the FDA.
因此，我不认为 FDA 等机构对健康缺乏兴趣。
But there's clearly a problem.
但显然有一个问题。
And I'm just trying to think of solutions, and it seems to all boil down to what we can take control of in our home.
我只是想找出解决方案，而这一切似乎都归结为我们可以在家里控制什么。
Like when we go to a restaurant, it's challenging to know what they're doing in the kitchen.
就像当我们去餐馆时，很难知道他们在厨房里做什么。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And at some point it becomes neurotic to-
在某些时候，它会变得神经质——
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
although I know people that won't go to restaurants where they use seed oils.
尽管我知道有人不会去使用种子油的餐馆。
There's this whole new thing cropping up about avoiding seed oils.
关于避免使用种子油的全新事情出现了。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
For sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But maybe there are more significant issues.
但也许还有更重要的问题。
Who knows?
谁知道？
The seed oil crowd is pretty intense.
种子油人群非常密集。
And I like olive oil anyway, so I err to that.
无论如何，我喜欢橄榄油，所以我错了。
But I think if people are interested in limiting their exposure to these endocrine disruptors, one of the key questions that's going to come up again and again, especially in light of PCOS and sperm count, is we can't control what happened to us during pregnancy.
但我认为，如果人们有兴趣限制接触这些内分泌干扰物，那么将会一次又一次出现的关键问题之一，特别是考虑到多囊卵巢综合症和精子数量，就是我们无法控制怀孕期间发生的事情。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But once we have some sense of agency over what we put into our body and how we put it into our body, do you think that there's plasticity and resilience to this system?
但是，一旦我们对放入体内的物质以及如何将其放入体内有了一定的代理意识，您认为这个系统具有可塑性和弹性吗？
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So, God forbid, if somebody was exposed to a lot of these things early on, by making changes-
所以，上帝保佑，如果有人很早就接触过很多这样的事情，通过做出改变——
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
No
否
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
can they rescue themselves to any degree?
他们能在某种程度上拯救自己吗？
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
No.
不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No?
没有？
So it's really just dependent on what your parents did.
所以这实际上取决于你的父母做了什么。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yes.
是的。
And that's not to say that your own exposure cannot change things further and make things worse, but here's a fact.
这并不是说你自己的暴露不能进一步改变事情并使事情变得更糟，但这是一个事实。
If a male's mother smokes when he's in the womb, then he has a, this is a Danish study by the way, 50% reduction in sperm count.
如果一个男性的母亲在他还在子宫里的时候就吸烟，那么他的精子数量就会减少 50%（顺便说一句，这是丹麦的一项研究）。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
If his mother smoked while he was in the womb.
如果他母亲在他还在子宫里的时候就抽烟。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
How much smoking are we talking?
我们在谈论多少吸烟？
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
I don't know.
我不知道。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Don't remember.
不记得了。
But the reason I bring this up is because there's nothing he can do to change that.
但我之所以提出这个问题，是因为他无法改变这一点。
Okay?
好的？
If he smokes as an adult, he has, I think, a similar reduction in sperm count.
我认为，如果他成年后吸烟，他的精子数量也会出现类似的减少。
He can stop, and his sperm will be restored.
他可以停下来，他的精子就会恢复。
He can get his sperm health back.
他可以恢复精子的健康。
But whatever happened in the womb stays in the womb, if you will .
但如果你愿意的话，子宫里发生的一切都会留在子宫里。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
It's developmental.
这是发展性的。
It's going to be there for life.
它会伴随一生。
And that's true for the brain as well.
对于大脑来说也是如此。
So, I think anybody who's thinking of conceiving a pregnancy or pregnant has a responsibility to really learn how to reduce their exposure, because these things are, by the way, passed on for several generations.
因此，我认为任何正在考虑怀孕或怀孕的人都有责任真正学习如何减少接触，因为顺便说一句，这些东西会遗传几代人。
It's your child and your child's child, because the germ cells for your grandchild are going to be carried within your child.
这是你的孩子和你孩子的孩子，因为你孙子的生殖细胞将在你的孩子体内携带。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So germ cells are not germs as in infectious germs.
因此，生殖细胞并不像传染性细菌那样是细菌。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Right.
对。
Sorry.
对不起。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's the cells that will produce the egg and sperm.
这些细胞将产生卵子和精子。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That germinate.
那个发芽了。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hence the word germ.
因此就有了“胚芽”这个词。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
So it's a huge responsibility, and I think people should take it very seriously, that they're going to be affecting the health of subsequent generations.
所以这是一项巨大的责任，我认为人们应该非常认真地对待它，因为他们将影响子孙后代的健康。
Some labs say it's seven generations.
一些实验室说这是七代。
I don't know if that's true.
我不知道这是不是真的。
But certainly three generations are affected.
但肯定有三代人受到影响。
And so I should mention my book.
所以我应该提一下我的书。
Can I mention it?
我可以提一下吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, please.
是的，请。
I'll mention it.
我会提到它。
Yeah.
是的。
I believe I mentioned it in my introduction.
我相信我在介绍中提到过它。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But yeah, please.
但是，是的，拜托。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
So in "Countdown," two words by the way, because if you say countdown one word, you won't find it.
所以在“倒计时”中，顺便说一下两个词，因为如果你说倒计时一个词，你就找不到它。
But "Countdown," we have two chapters on things you can do, very practical things you can do, and also websites you can go to and links you can go to.
但是“倒计时”，我们有两章介绍您可以做的事情，非常实用的事情，以及您可以访问的网站和链接。
Now, this came out a while ago, so '21, so there are many more things now, but I think it's a good start.
现在，这是不久前发布的，所以 21 年，所以现在还有更多的事情，但我认为这是一个好的开始。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
How lonely are you in this expedition of identifying endocrine disruptors in food, in pesticides, in the sorts of things you're talking about?
在这次寻找食物、农药以及你所谈论的那些东西中的内分泌干扰物的探险中，你有多孤独？
Is there a whole field of this, of excellent people, or are you a small team of people that are against the grain?
是否有整个领域都是优秀的人，或者你们是一小群反对传统的人？
I confess I don't know many people doing the sorts of work that you're doing, but you're the most public-facing and prominent.
我承认我不知道有多少人从事你正在做的工作，但你是最面向公众、最杰出的人。
And I guess my question is, is the NIH funding a lot of this sort of thing?
我想我的问题是，国家卫生研究院是否为此类事情提供了大量资金？
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
We're an army, and it's international.
我们是一支军队，而且是国际性的。
And there is now a global plastics treaty under negotiation, by the way, which is-
顺便说一句，现在正在谈判一项全球塑料条约，它是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Tell us about the plastics treaty.
告诉我们有关塑料条约的信息。
Yeah
是啊
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
...
...
people are trying to create, get passed by various countries, an international plastics treaty.
人们正在努力制定一项国际塑料条约，并得到各国的通过。
I don't want to talk a lot about it.
我不想谈论太多。
I'm not involved in that process.
我没有参与这个过程。
But in the process, you could see, if you looked into there, hundreds of scientists and concerned citizens and activists and people in legislation who are working to Specifically on the chemicals in plastic.
但在这个过程中，如果你调查一下，你会发现数百名科学家、相关公民、活动家和立法人员正在专门研究塑料中的化学物质。
Now, plastic is really a bad actor, but it is not the only bad actor.
现在，塑料确实是一个坏演员，但它并不是唯一的坏演员。
So I want to just mention that plastic is really important, but pesticides are not plastic, and so on.
所以我只想提一下，塑料确实很重要，但农药不是塑料，等等。
So there are many other classes that you have to worry about, but certainly, controlling our exposure to plastic is huge.
因此，您还需要担心许多其他类别，但当然，控制我们对塑料的接触是巨大的。
And you asked about scientists in this area.
您询问了该领域的科学家。
Yes, there's a huge amount of science going on in this.
是的，这里面蕴藏着大量的科学知识。
And it's funded by NIH, and it's funded by the EU.
它由美国国立卫生研究院 (NIH) 和欧盟资助。
And primarily, I think those are the two funders, Scandinavia has funding within Scandinavian countries.
首先，我认为这是两个资助者，斯堪的纳维亚半岛在斯堪的纳维亚国家内部提供资金。
So there's a lot of work and a lot of very good people working really hard.
因此，有很多工作要做，而且有很多非常优秀的人正在努力工作。
But it's a huge problem, and it's been here since, well, plastic started to rise in popularity in 1950.
但这是一个大问题，自从 1950 年塑料开始流行以来，这个问题就一直存在。
So we have 75 years to battle against, and it's not going down anytime soon.
因此，我们还有 75 年的时间要奋斗，而且这种情况不会很快消失。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Lifespan is increasing pretty significantly.
寿命显着增加。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Presumably in large part because of the reduction in smoking-
大概很大程度上是因为吸烟的减少——
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
And control of infectious diseases
以及传染病的控制
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and control of infectious diseases.
和传染病的控制。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But lifespan is definitely increasing, whereas the use of plastics has clearly increased.
但寿命肯定在增加，而塑料的使用也明显增加。
And so I guess one could argue that we're living longer, but we are less robust than we were, less-
所以我想有人可能会说我们的寿命更长了，但我们的体力却不如以前那么强健，更少——
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
The-
该-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
reproductively competent.
具有生殖能力。
Is that-
难道是——
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
The people that are reflected in that longer lifespan were not necessarily exposed early in life, which is when it's most critical.
体现出更长寿命的人并不一定是在生命早期就暴露了，而这正是最关键的时候。
So I was born in 1936.
所以我出生于1936年。
There was no plastic then.
那时还没有塑料。
And there were other things, of course, but not as they are today.
当然，还有其他事情，但不像今天这样。
So I don't think that you can make the inference that because we're living longer, the growth of the plastics industry is somehow driving that longevity.
因此，我认为你不能因为我们的寿命更长而得出这样的结论：塑料行业的增长在某种程度上推动了寿命的增长。
Absolutely not.
绝对不是。
I think what it's driving is decrease in fertility.
我认为其驱动因素是生育率下降。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
And what's happening is that the shift in populations is pretty dramatic.
正在发生的事情是人口的变化相当剧烈。
The pyramid used to be like this.
金字塔以前是这样的。
I'm making a triangle with my arms, showing very few people on top and a lot of people on the bottom.
我用手臂形成一个三角形，上面的人很少，下面的人很多。
But what's happening is that that's getting inverted, so we're getting more and more people on top and fewer and fewer people on the bottom.
但现在的情况是，情况正在发生逆转，所以我们在顶部的人越来越多，在底部的人越来越少。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Birth rates are way down.
出生率大幅下降。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Birth rates are way down.
出生率大幅下降。
And so this is an enormous problem for societies because the people in that small support group at the bottom can't drive the society to support the large growth on top.
因此，这对社会来说是一个巨大的问题，因为底层的小支持群体中的人们无法推动社会支持顶层的大幅增长。
You see what I'm saying?
你明白我在说什么吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is this true in other countries as well?
其他国家也是如此吗？
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yes, absolutely.
是的，绝对是。
It's all over the world.
世界各地都有。
And the decline in fertility, in my mind, is probably one of the biggest challenges we're facing now, because it's everywhere, it's very acute, and there's only limited things we can do to counter it.
在我看来，生育率下降可能是我们现在面临的最大挑战之一，因为它无处不在，非常严重，而我们能采取的应对措施有限。
There's a wonderful website, it's by the World Bank, put out by the World Bank.
有一个很棒的网站，它是世界银行的，由世界银行推出。
It's called Fertility Data.
这就是所谓的生育数据。
And if you go in there, you can see what is the fertility rate every year, but you can plug in a country or a year and see what the fertility rate in each country in the world each year, and you can see that.
如果你进去的话，你可以看到每年的生育率是多少，但是你可以插入一个国家或一年，看看世界上每个国家每年的生育率是多少，你就可以看到这一点。
And what you see is a decline.
你看到的是下降。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
About the same rate as sperm decline, by the way.
顺便说一句，与精子衰退的速度大致相同。
About 50% in 50 years.
50年内大约50%。
And the critical point for fertility is two.
而生育的临界点有两个。
So what's that mean?
那么这是什么意思呢？
That's called replacement, and that's two people replace themselves with a total fertility rate of two.
这就是所谓的更替，就是两个人替换自己，总生育率是两个。
Actually, 2.1 because you have a little bit of loss.
实际上，2.1是因为你有一点损失。
But 2.1, you're good to go as a society.
但是 2.1，作为一个社会，你已经很好了。
When you fall below that, you're shrinking.
当你低于这个水平时，你就会萎缩。
And there are many countries in the world that are below that, including the United States.
而世界上还有很多国家低于这个水平，其中就包括美国。
And for example, the worst I've seen is actually South Korea, which is at 0.78.
例如，我见过最差的实际上是韩国，为 0.78。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wow.
哇。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Japan is at one.
日本是其中之一。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wow.
哇。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
So large parts of the world are just not replacing themselves.
世界上很大一部分地区并没有自我更新。
And why that is is maybe another discussion, or we can talk about it.
为什么会这样也许是另一个讨论，或者我们可以讨论一下。
I don't know if you want to go into that.
我不知道你是否想深入探讨这一点。
But it's not just sperm count, for sure.
但这肯定不仅仅是精子数量。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Along those lines, let's talk about egg count and quality.
沿着这些思路，我们来谈谈卵子数量和质量。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You mentioned the PCOS results earlier.
您之前提到过 PCOS 结果。
Before we were on mic, you mentioned an interesting study that you did about the use of electric blankets, and assessing whether or not the use of electric blankets had impacted egg number or quality in women, and the answer was?
在我们开始麦克风之前，您提到了一项关于电热毯使用的有趣研究，并评估电热毯的使用是否会影响女性卵子的数量或质量，答案是？
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Actually, what we looked at in women, I'm sorry to correct you, but it was the outcome of their pregnancy, their fertility, and if they got pregnant, how did that turn out?
事实上，我们在女性身上看到了什么，我很抱歉纠正你，但这是她们怀孕的结果，她们的生育能力，如果她们怀孕了，结果如何？
But-
但是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Excuse me.
对不起。
Sorry.
对不起。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thank you for that clarification.
谢谢你的澄清。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
But I'm sure there'd be a lot of other studies that have looked at that.
但我确信会有很多其他研究对此进行过研究。
I just have been away from that field for a long time.
我只是离开那个领域很久了。
But so far, I don't see convincing evidence that the use of cell phones or other exposures to electromagnetic radiation are affecting our pregnancies and our fertility.
但到目前为止，我还没有看到令人信服的证据表明使用手机或其他电磁辐射暴露正在影响我们的怀孕和生育能力。
That's not to say it's not happening, but I have not looked at it, and I don't like to make statements about things I haven't looked at.
这并不是说它没有发生，但我没有看过它，而且我不喜欢对我没有看过的事情发表声明。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
My understanding of the cell phone data for sperm count and motility, AKA quality, is I discussed a meta-analysis covering this on the podcast previously, is that there are some heat effects of cell phone use and keeping the phone in the pocket that may I want to be careful here, impact sperm count and motility quality.
我对精子数量和活力（又名质量）的手机数据的理解是，我之前在播客上讨论过一项涵盖这一点的荟萃分析，即使用手机和将手机放在口袋里会产生一些热效应，我在这里可能要小心，这会影响精子数量和活力质量。
But direct effects of EMFs on sperm, there's no evidence that it is disrupting sperm, at least to my knowledge.
但就电磁场对精子的直接影响而言，没有证据表明它会破坏精子，至少据我所知。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
I honestly have to say, just going to say I don't know.
老实说，我只能说我不知道。
But I do know that heat is related to fertility and sperm count.
但我确实知道热量与生育能力和精子数量有关。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
And you can look at the birth rates as a function of the month of conception, and you can see that, for example, in warm months, in warm climates, there's less.
你可以将出生率视为受孕月份的函数，你会发现，例如，在温暖的月份、在温暖的气候下，出生率会减少。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So heat does play a role-
所以热量确实发挥了作用-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
...
...
but how much that's tied to cell phone use, I think that's something that's now under investigation by a lot of groups, and we'll see what they find.
但这与手机的使用有多大关系，我认为这是许多团体现在正在调查的事情，我们将看看他们会发现什么。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, the data on sitting more than a few hours a day, on having legs that are very large as a consequence of obesity, or even just legs that are large, heating the scrotum, those data are fairly, I would say, solid, in terms of the relationship to reducing sperm count.
是的，关于每天坐的时间超过几个小时，由于肥胖而导致双腿变得非常大，甚至只是双腿变得很大，导致阴囊发热的数据，我想说，就与减少精子数量的关系而言，这些数据是相当可靠的。
Heat is not good for sperm, which is why the scrotum has the features that it does-
高温对精子不利，这就是为什么阴囊具有这样的特征——
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
to move the testicles further or closer to the body.
将睾丸移得更远或更靠近身体。
Getting back to egg count and quality, there's some evidence that girls are entering puberty earlier, but that women are also undergoing perimenopause and menopause earlier.
回到卵子数量和质量，有一些证据表明女孩提前进入青春期，但女性也更早经历围绝经期和更年期。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Earlier, that's right.
早些时候，这是对的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do we know what that is the consequence of?
我们知道这会带来什么后果吗？
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
There are several new papers, actually, on the menopausal age showing relation to a number of chemicals, but I can't quote them to you right now.
实际上，有几篇关于绝经年龄的新论文显示了与多种化学物质的关系，但我现在无法向您引用它们。
I don't remember which class it was that they looked at, but I think that's right.
我不记得他们看的是哪一堂课，但我认为是对的。
I think there is growing evidence that earlier, it's also called premature ovarian failure-
我认为越来越多的证据表明，早些时候，它也被称为卵巢早衰——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm
毫米
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
...
...
so that women are just not producing the eggs as long as they used to.
这样一来，女性产卵的时间就不再像以前那么长了。
Yeah.
是的。
But I just want to say something about the fertility.
但我只想谈谈生育能力。
Can we go back to fertility?
我们可以回到生育吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Please.
请。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
So when this comes up, and I'm sure you've seen the literature, there's a lot of literature on this that say fertility is going down, fewer children are being born.
所以当这个问题出现时，我相信你已经看过文献，有很多关于这个问题的文献都说生育率正在下降，出生的孩子越来越少。
A, people say, well, that's a good thing because it's less of a load on the planet, which is another discussion.
答，人们说，嗯，这是一件好事，因为它减少了地球的负担，这是另一个讨论。
And then they say, well, this is due to choice, that people are choosing to have fewer children, and they're choosing to delay childbearing till they're no longer as fertile.
然后他们说，好吧，这是由于选择，人们选择少生孩子，他们选择推迟生育，直到不再生育。
They're using more contraception.
他们正在使用更多的避孕措施。
Women are more educated.
女性受教育程度更高。
They're entering the workforce.
他们正在进入劳动力市场。
All of these social factors are given as the reason for decline in fertility.
所有这些社会因素都被认为是生育率下降的原因。
And I just need to point out whenever I hear this, that it's not just human fertility that's declining.
每当我听到这个消息时，我都需要指出，下降的不仅仅是人类生育能力。
The number of species that are becoming extinct is increasing rapidly, and there have been, for at least 40 years, evidence that those pesticides that affect us are affecting animals as well.
即将灭绝的物种数量正在迅速增加，至少 40 年来有证据表明，那些影响我们的杀虫剂也会影响动物。
And so the decline in fertility in non-human species cannot be attributed to delayed childbearing or use of contraception or entering the workforce.
因此，非人类物种生育率的下降不能归因于延迟生育或使用避孕措施或进入劳动力市场。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or rent crisis, right?
或者租金危机，对吗？
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it's interesting because we usually hear first about species that are about to go extinct, that are badly endangered.
这很有趣，因为我们通常首先听到即将灭绝、严重濒临灭绝的物种。
I don't know what the proper language is, but about to go extinct.
我不知道什么是正确的语言，但快要灭绝了。
Like the Florida panther.
就像佛罗里达黑豹一样。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or we hear that there are these species of like there's a very small subset of them left.
或者我们听说有这些物种，其中只剩下一小部分。
The black-footed ferrets in Montana, I think one ferret, his name is Scarface, sired something like 300 litters that then led to the-- Eventually they started outbreeding, because if you do too much inbreeding, obviously it's not good.
蒙大拿州的黑足雪貂，我想有一只雪貂，他的名字叫疤面煞星，生了大约 300 窝幼崽，然后导致——最终它们开始近亲繁殖，因为如果你进行太多的近亲繁殖，显然这是不好的。
But then they were able to at least partially recover, maybe fully recover those populations.
但后来他们至少能够部分恢复，也许完全恢复这些种群。
And people forget the domino effect of these ecosystems when one species is compromised.
当一个物种受到损害时，人们忘记了这些生态系统的多米诺骨牌效应。
Like when the black-footed ferrets, I know it might sound kind of silly, but were compromised in terms of their populations, the prairie dog population went up, the grasses were getting eaten far more, and then there's all these downstream consequences-
就像黑脚雪貂一样，我知道这听起来有点傻，但它们的数量受到了影响，草原土拨鼠的数量增加了，草被吃掉了更多，然后就有了所有这些下游后果——
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
on bugs and-
关于错误和-
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and I'm not an expert in this-
我不是这方面的专家-
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
but one doesn't have to be an expert to understand, you move one pin here, and the whole web moves.
但不必是专家才能理解，你在这里移动一根图钉，整个网络就会移动。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or you move one node, and the whole web reconfigures.
或者你移动一个节点，整个网络就会重新配置。
And that's what nature has been doing for millions of years, right?
这就是大自然数百万年来一直在做的事情，对吗？
But at some point, it is conceivable, no pun intended, that we are going to be the species on the endangered species list, right?
但在某些时候，可以想象，我们将成为濒危物种名单上的物种，这不是双关语，对吗？
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's not like an outrageous sci-fi movie.
这不像一部令人发指的科幻电影。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
No. That's right.
不，没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
At some point, humans might be added to the endangered species list.
在某些时候，人类可能会被添加到濒危物种名单中。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
With the exception that we're very clever, and so we've found a lot of ways to do medically assisted conception.
但我们非常聪明，所以我们找到了很多医学辅助受孕的方法。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
ICSI, the literally gentle grabbing of one sperm and forcing it to fertilize the egg, is something we've covered on this podcast in our fertility episode with Natalie Crawford and a solo episode that I did.
ICSI，即轻柔地抓住一个精子并迫使其使卵子受精，这是我们在 Natalie Crawford 的生育节目和我的个人节目中介绍的内容。
There are questions that people have, reasonable questions about whether or not the offspring of those types of scenarios are the same as the-
人们有一些疑问，合理的疑问是这些类型的场景的后代是否与-
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
genetic probability experiment, as you mentioned before, of having 200 million sperm and then letting nature select the one that is most-
遗传概率实验，正如你之前提到的，拥有 2 亿个精子，然后让大自然选择最——
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
robust in that environment.
在那种环境下是稳健的。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yeah.
是的。
And the number of technologies is increasing.
而且技术的数量正在增加。
We're a very clever species.
我们是一个非常聪明的物种。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
And for example, I don't know if you've heard of gametogenesis.
例如，我不知道你是否听说过配子发生。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
So it is now possible to create an embryo from a skin cell.
因此，现在可以用皮肤细胞制造胚胎。
A skin cell can produce a sperm cell and an egg cell, and you can-
皮肤细胞可以产生精子细胞和卵细胞，你可以-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So you give it the right transcription factors, and you can-
所以你给它正确的转录因子，你就可以-
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You can-
你可以-
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
So this is kind of interesting-
所以这有点有趣——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's wild
那是狂野的
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
...
...
exciting, and scary, right?
令人兴奋，又可怕，对吧？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This is like the, what is it?
这就像，那是什么？
I think the vultures, the females, there's some way in which two female vultures or maybe a single female vulture can create offspring in the absence of a male.
我认为秃鹫，雌性秃鹫，有某种方式可以让两只雌性秃鹰或者一只雌性秃鹰在没有雄性的情况下产生后代。
There's also a three-party IVF, I don't know if you're aware of this, where this was developed where there's a mitochondrial disease.
还有一个三方试管受精，我不知道你是否意识到这一点，这是在有线粒体疾病的情况下开发的。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You can take the two eggs, one from the intended mother.
你可以拿两个鸡蛋，其中一个是来自准妈妈的。
You take the nucleus, so you get the DNA.
你取出细胞核，就得到了 DNA。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You put it into-
你把它放进-
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Uh-huh
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
an egg of somebody that where the DNA has been removed-
某人的卵子，其 DNA 已被去除——
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Ah
啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
but where the spindles, which are rich with mitochondria, are from typically a much younger-
但富含线粒体的纺锤体通常来自年轻得多的——
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
host, and then you use a sperm.
宿主，然后你使用精子。
So it's actually three parents.
所以实际上是三个父母。
It's the spindle of one mom, the DNA of another mom-
这是一位母亲的纺锤体，另一位母亲的DNA——
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
I haven't heard of that
我没听说过
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and a sperm.
和一个精子。
They do this in the UK for mitochondrial disease.
他们在英国这样做是为了治疗线粒体疾病。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Wow.
哇。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's still illegal in the United States-
在美国还是违法的
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
as far as I understand, and it's done in other countries.
据我了解，其他国家也是这么做的。
And in theory-
理论上来说——
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Legal issues must be
法律问题必须
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, but in theory, this would allow women of any age, provided they still have eggs, to have their DNA propagated forward because the DNA-
是的，但从理论上讲，这将允许任何年龄的女性，只要她们还有卵子，就可以让她们的 DNA 向前传播，因为 DNA-
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
can be put into a younger egg that has the spindle quality that allows for the production of more cells.
可以放入更年轻的卵子中，该卵子的纺锤体质量可以产生更多细胞。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
So-
所以——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This can and has been done in humans.
这可以而且已经在人类身上做到了。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
You and I won't think of all the things that will be developed in the next 10, 20 years-
你我都不会想到未来10年、20年会发展的所有东西——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
...
...
to meet the challenge of declining fertility by ordinary conception.
应对普通受孕生育率下降的挑战。
I think that's how we're going to solve this problem for us.
我认为这就是我们解决这个问题的方式。
We're going to just be smarter and smarter about-
我们会变得越来越聪明——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
...
...
how to do medically assisted-
如何进行医疗辅助-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
...
...
conception.
构想。
And then the question is going to be, and it'll take time to know this, is whether there are adverse effects in the offspring.
接下来的问题是，这是否会对后代产生不利影响，这需要时间才能知道。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
It's a little tricky because, for example, if you use the sperm of an infertile couple and let's say the son is subfertile, that's born that way.
这有点棘手，因为，例如，如果你使用一对不育夫妇的精子，假设儿子生育力低下，那么他就是这样出生的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
But you do it in a test tube or whatever.
但你可以在试管或其他什么东西中进行。
And then you can say, well, maybe that's because the father was infertile, and he's got inheritance from the father from that.
然后你可以说，好吧，也许那是因为父亲不育，而他因此继承了父亲的遗产。
You know what I'm saying?
你知道我在说什么吗？
So you can't know if you see an adverse effect in an offspring, you have to be very careful that it's not something that they've gotten because of problems that led the couple to seek assisted reproduction.
因此，你无法知道是否会在后代中看到不利影响，你必须非常小心，这不是他们因为问题导致夫妇寻求辅助生殖而受到的影响。
You follow me?
你跟着我吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yep.
是的。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yep.
是的。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Super challenging, fascinating problem.
超级具有挑战性、引人入胜的问题。
So in anticipation of this sit-down together, I put a question out on X, formerly known as Twitter.
因此，为了期待这次坐下来，我在 X（以前称为 Twitter）上提出了一个问题。
I let people know that I was hosting an expert in endocrine disruptors, in phthalates and pesticides, reproductive implications, et cetera.
我让人们知道我正在接待一位内分泌干扰物、邻苯二甲酸盐和农药、生殖影响等方面的专家。
And I asked for questions.
我提出了问题。
And they came up with a huge number of excellent questions, many of which you've already answered.
他们提出了大量优秀的问题，其中许多问题您已经回答了。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Things like is tap water safe?
比如自来水安全吗？
What can we do to our tap water?
我们可以对自来水做什么？
You mentioned you distill water.
你提到你蒸馏水。
My understanding is that reverse osmosis, provided there's remineralization, excuse me, difficult word to say, can also be effective, et cetera.
我的理解是，反渗透，只要有再矿化，对不起，很难说，也可以是有效的，等等。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There were a lot of questions about cosmetics and laundry detergents.
有很多关于化妆品和洗衣粉的问题。
I don't know if we discussed laundry detergents.
我不知道我们是否讨论过洗衣粉。
What do you use in terms of laundry detergent?
您使用什么洗衣粉？
Or that is presumably one can find-
或者说人们大概可以找到——
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
I don't even remember.
我什至不记得了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Don't go by my products.
不要相信我的产品。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
For one thing, I'm not going to be pregnant anytime soon.
一方面，我短期内不会怀孕。
No.
不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I believe there are some solutions related to the, like instead of bleach, people can use hydrogen peroxide.
我相信有一些与此相关的解决方案，例如人们可以使用过氧化氢代替漂白剂。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
I can't speak about specific products, actually.
事实上，我不能谈论具体的产品。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
I can tell you who can.
我可以告诉你谁可以。
You might like to talk to her.
你可能想和她谈谈。
So you remember I mentioned Million Marker?
你还记得我提到过“百万标记”吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
The company that did the inventory?
是哪家公司做库存的？
Well, they are a company.
嗯，他们是一家公司。
Look at Million Marker.
看看百万标记。
I think you'd be interested.
我想你会感兴趣的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Great.
太棒了。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
And the person who runs that, Jenna Hua, is a Chinese American and a friend of mine, and we're going to be writing a grant together.
该项目的负责人 Jenna Hua 是一位美籍华人，也是我的朋友，我们将一起写一笔赠款。
And she participated in the film, so our participants sent their...
她参与了这部电影，所以我们的参与者发送了他们的...
If you go to Million Marker, you log on, and if you agree to pay whatever it is, $100, $199, I think.
如果你去Million Marker，你就登录，如果你同意支付任何费用，我想是100美元，199美元。
You send your urine in.
你把尿液送进去。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
They give you a kit, you send your urine in, and they test it for all these things in your urine, so you know what's in your body.
他们给你一个工具包，你把尿液送进去，然后他们测试你尿液中的所有这些物质，这样你就知道你体内有什么。
You might want to think about it.
你可能想考虑一下。
Might be interesting.
可能很有趣。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
And then if you pay another $100, I think you get this counseling and so on, blah, blah.
然后如果你再付 100 美元，我想你会得到这种咨询等等，等等，等等。
So you can see the different levels.
所以你可以看到不同的级别。
But she knows all about products.
但她对产品了如指掌。
I don't know about product because it's a moving target.
我不了解产品，因为它是一个移动目标。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
And also, I don't like to talk about product names because it sounds like I'm endorsing them.
而且，我不喜欢谈论产品名称，因为这听起来像是我在认可它们。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Right.
正确的。
And we won't expect you to give product names, and I'll follow your recommendation that you just gave.
我们不会期望您提供产品名称，我会遵循您刚刚给出的建议。
Somebody asked about food dyes, just generally the dyes in foods.
有人问有关食品染料的问题，通常是食品中的染料。
I saw an incredible study recently-
最近我看到了一项令人难以置信的研究——
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that "Science Magazine" covered.
《科学杂志》报道过。
So "Science Magazine," very reputable, of course.
当然，《科学杂志》非常有信誉。
Yellow number five, I forget what the precise name is-
黄色五号，我忘记具体名字是什么了——
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
but the thing that makes Cheetos really bright-
但奇多的真正亮点是——
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Oh
哦
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
they put it on the bellies of adult mice, and it literally makes them translucent.
他们把它放在成年老鼠的肚子上，它确实使它们变得半透明。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Oh yeah, I saw that
哦，是的，我看到了
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You can see the organs.
你可以看到器官。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
I saw that.
我看到了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's wild.
它很狂野。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Super scary.
超级可怕。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's so scary.
太可怕了。
I sent it to Rogan, and he was like, "Whoa." His version of whoa.
我把它发给罗根，他说，“哇。”他的哇哦版本。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I also said, "Whoa."
我也说：“哇。”
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
He probably said, "Holy shit," right?
他可能会说，“天啊，”对吧？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, he said-
不，他说——
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Or worse.
或者更糟。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No. I'm not going to say what it said.
不，我不会说出它所说的内容。
He didn't curse.
他没有咒骂。
There were a number of questions about household items.
有很多关于家居用品的问题。
Again, we're not looking for specific products, but for instance, soaps, body wash, cleaning sprays, floor cleaners, laundry-related cleaners, do any or all of these contain endocrine disruptors-
再说一次，我们不是在寻找特定的产品，而是例如肥皂、沐浴露、清洁喷雾剂、地板清洁剂、洗衣相关清洁剂，其中任何或所有这些产品是否含有内分泌干扰物——
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
unless one is careful to find the ones that don't?
除非人们仔细地找到那些没有的？
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Receipts.
收据。
How serious is it?
有多严重？
Should we be concerned about the BPAs and other endocrine disruptors on receipts?
我们是否应该担心收据上的 BPA 和其他内分泌干扰物？
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So-
所以——
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
And my suggestion is just ask for an electronic receipt.
我的建议是索要电子收据。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
And then you don't have to deal with it, yeah.
然后你就不必处理它了，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
But they're definitely absorbed into your body.
但它们肯定会被你的身体吸收。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Any impact of endocrine disruptors of the sort we've talked about today on the thyroid system?
我们今天讨论的内分泌干扰物对甲状腺系统有什么影响吗？
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Presumably in the bad direction, not in-
大概是朝着坏的方向，而不是-
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yeah.
是的。
This is an interesting point.
这是一个有趣的观点。
Let me just say another word about it.
让我再多说一句。
There was an ongoing study in the Faroe Islands off Denmark, and they studied PFAS chemicals and showed that people who fished there, there were fisher people, and they ate the fish, and they were getting high levels of PFAS in their body, and had, and this is published, effects on their immune response.
丹麦附近的法罗群岛正在进行一项研究，他们研究了 PFAS 化学物质，结果表明，在那里捕鱼的人，有渔民，他们吃了鱼，他们体内的 PFAS 含量很高，并且对他们的免疫反应产生了影响，这篇文章已发表。
So my concern, and I don't know if anyone's looked at this, is given everyone's vaccination is our response to vaccination now altered by these chemicals?
所以我担心的是，我不知道是否有人看过这个，考虑到每个人都接种了疫苗，我们对疫苗接种的反应现在是否被这些化学物质改变了？
I don't know, but I think it's a really interesting question.
我不知道，但我认为这是一个非常有趣的问题。
But there is a whole field of the effect of these chemicals on the thyroid system, and there's a lot of evidence that it's adverse.
但这些化学物质对甲状腺系统的影响是全方位的，并且有大量证据表明它是有害的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Can these endocrine disruptors be detoxed from the body?
这些内分泌干扰物能从体内排出吗？
Is there anything that we can do?
有什么我们可以做的吗？
What's the quickest ways?
最快的方法是什么？
Things like sweating.
诸如出汗之类的事情。
Are there ways to improve liver clearance of these endocrine disruptors?
有没有办法提高这些内分泌干扰物的肝脏清除率？
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
The answer to that depends on the class of chemicals.
答案取决于化学品的类别。
So the chemicals that are water soluble-
所以水溶性化学物质-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
...
...
in particular, the phthalates and the bisphenols, leave the body in a matter of hours.
尤其是邻苯二甲酸盐和双酚，会在几小时内离开人体。
You don't have to do anything.
你不需要做任何事。
You just have to stop taking them in, right?
你必须停止接受他们，对吧？
The forever chemicals, the PFAS chemicals, pesticides are...
Forever 化学品、PFAS 化学品、杀虫剂是...
So it has to do with how they're handled by the body.
所以这与身体如何处理它们有关。
If they're water soluble, you pee them out.
如果它们是水溶性的，你就会把它们尿出来。
If they're fat soluble, they're going to be around for a long time.
如果它们是脂溶性的，它们就会存在很长一段时间。
So it just depends on the chemical structure of the compound.
因此，这仅取决于化合物的化学结构。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There was a question about non-stick pans.
有一个关于不粘锅的问题。
You covered that earlier.
您之前已经介绍过了。
If someone had to pick between non-stick coated pans versus seasoned iron pans.
如果有人必须在不粘涂层锅和调味铁锅之间做出选择。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
No question, iron.
毫无疑问，铁。
There's no risk associated with seasoned iron pans.
经验丰富的铁锅不存在任何风险。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
A number of other questions, such as, why does Europe have such more stringent laws, et cetera?
还有一些其他问题，例如，为什么欧洲有如此严格的法律等等？
Lots of questions about atrazine, questions about ointments and fragrances you've covered.
很多关于莠去津的问题，关于你所涉及的药膏和香水的问题。
And I must say that as I scroll through these hundreds of questions-
我必须说，当我滚动浏览这数百个问题时——
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
if not more, you've done an amazing job at clarifying for us what's known, what is not known, and essentially where it's a probably should avoid, definitely avoid, and look, we just don't know.
如果不是更多的话，你在为我们澄清什么是已知的、什么是未知的以及基本上应该避免、绝对避免的地方方面做得非常出色，而且看起来，我们只是不知道。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And-
还有——
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Well, I have to distinguish between we just don't know and I just don't know.
好吧，我必须区分我们只是不知道和我只是不知道。
There are many things that I don't know.
有很多事情我不知道。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sure.
当然。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Right?
对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sure.
当然。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
It's a huge field, so-
这是一个巨大的领域，所以——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right
右
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
...
...
maybe ask the question of ChatGPT.
也许会问 ChatGPT 的问题。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Yeah.
是的。
We'll be certain to ask ChatGPT, and we will be certain to ask other experts in these areas.
我们一定会询问 ChatGPT，并且我们一定会询问这些领域的其他专家。
But I just want to make very clear, I and everyone listening and watching truly appreciate the work that you've been doing-
但我只是想明确表示，我和每个听众和观看者都真正欣赏你们所做的工作-
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Thank you
谢谢你
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in this area for-
在这个领域为-
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Sure
当然可以
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
a number of years.
好几年了。
We're so grateful that you took that airline flight with this chemist that you mentioned, that you stored the urine of those pregnant women, that you analyzed it, and that you've gone down this path of exploring things that are really disruptive to our health, and potentially to the existence of our species.
我们非常感激你和你提到的这位化学家一起乘坐那趟航班，你储存了那些孕妇的尿液，你分析了它，并且你沿着这条道路探索了真正破坏我们健康并可能破坏我们物种存在的事物。
As we talked about earlier, there is the possibility that we go extinct, not because of a meteor, but because we fail to replace ourselves, and that we fail to replace ourselves because we destroy our biological ability to replace ourselves.
正如我们之前谈到的，我们有可能灭绝，不是因为流星，而是因为我们无法取代自己，而我们之所以无法取代自己，是因为我们破坏了取代自己的生物能力。
I think it's hard for people to internalize that very real possibility because we feel ourselves sitting in traffic with thousands of other people, and go, "There's too many people," this kind of thing.
我认为人们很难内化这种非常真实的可能性，因为我们感觉自己和成千上万的人一起坐在交通中，然后说“人太多了”之类的事情。
But want to thank you for the work that you've been doing and continue to do, for your willingness to write books and to educate the public on podcasts like this and others.
但我想感谢您一直以来所做的工作以及继续做的工作，感谢您愿意写书并通过此类播客和其他播客来教育公众。
Because these are topics that are pretty emotionally loaded for people.
因为这些话题对人们来说是非常情绪化的。
I don't think anything gets people quite as inflamed as the idea that what they've been ingesting and exposed to, especially in terms of consumables that they've spent their hard-earned money on, have been-
我认为没有什么比他们所摄入和接触到的东西更让人愤怒的了，尤其是他们花辛苦赚来的钱购买的消费品——
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
Harming them
伤害他们
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
harming them and their offspring and generations to follow.
伤害他们及其后代和子孙后代。
That there's something that really lands deep in that way.
有一些东西确实以这种方式深深扎根。
But you've also offered us a lot of possibility and a sense of agency over these things.
但你们也为我们提供了很多可能性和对这些事情的代理感。
And I love that you weave your math and statistics and probability theory background into all of this, because what comes through is intense curiosity, intense rigor, and a real desire to do good.
我喜欢你将数学、统计学和概率论背景融入到这一切中，因为随之而来的是强烈的好奇心、强烈的严谨性和行善的真正愿望。
So thank you so much for joining us, and please come back again as you make more discoveries.
非常感谢您加入我们，请在您有更多发现时再次回来。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
I'd love to.
我很乐意。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thank you.
谢谢你。
Dr. Shanna Swan:
莎娜·斯旺博士：
It's been really fun.
这真的很有趣。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Shanna Swan.
感谢您参加今天与 Shanna Swan 博士的讨论。
To learn more about her work and to find a link to her excellent books on these topics, please see the links in the show note captions.
要了解有关她的工作的更多信息并找到有关这些主题的优秀书籍的链接，请参阅节目注释标题中的链接。
Also, I should mention that if you're interested in learning more about microplastics and endocrine disruptors, I did a solo episode of the Huberman Lab podcast on that topic, and that is also linked in the show note captions.
另外，我应该提到，如果您有兴趣了解有关微塑料和内分泌干扰物的更多信息，我就该主题制作了 Huberman 实验室播客的一集，并且在节目注释标题中也有链接。
If you're learning from and/or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel.
如果您正在学习和/或喜欢此播客，请订阅我们的 YouTube 频道。
That's a terrific zero-cost way to support us.
这是支持我们的绝佳零成本方式。
In addition, please follow the podcast on both Spotify and Apple by clicking follow on Spotify and Apple.
此外，请通过单击“关注 Spotify 和 Apple”来关注 Spotify 和 Apple 上的播客。
And on both Spotify and Apple, you can leave us up to a five-star review.
在 Spotify 和 Apple 上，您都可以给我们五星级的评价。
Please also check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode.
另请查看今天节目开头和整个节目中提到的赞助商。
That's the best way to support this podcast.
这是支持这个播客的最佳方式。
Also, if you have any questions for me or comments about the podcast or guests or topics that you'd like me to consider for the Huberman Lab podcast, please put those in the comments section on YouTube.
另外，如果您对我有任何疑问，或者对播客或嘉宾有任何意见，或者您希望我为 Huberman Lab 播客考虑的主题，请将这些意见放入 YouTube 的评论部分。
I do read all the comments.
我确实阅读了所有评论。
For those of you that haven't heard, I have a new book coming out.
对于那些还没有听说过的人，我即将出版一本新书。
It's my very first book.
这是我的第一本书。
It's entitled "Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body." This is a book that I've been working on for more than five years, and that's based on more than 30 years of research and experience.
它的标题是“协议：人体操作手册”。这本书是我花了五年多时间编写的，它基于 30 多年的研究和经验。
And it covers protocols for everything from sleep to exercise to stress control, protocols related to focus and motivation, and of course, I provide the scientific substantiation for the protocols that are included.
它涵盖了从睡眠到运动再到压力控制的所有协议，以及与注意力和动机相关的协议，当然，我为所包含的协议提供了科学依据。
The book is now available by presale at protocolsbook.com.
该书现已在protocolbook.com 上预售。
There you can find links to various vendors.
在那里您可以找到各个供应商的链接。
You can pick the one that you like best.
您可以选择您最喜欢的一个。
Again, the book is called "Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body." If you're not already following me on social media, I am Huberman Lab on all social media platforms.
同样，这本书的名字是“协议：人体操作手册”。如果您还没有在社交媒体上关注我，我是所有社交媒体平台上的 Huberman Lab。
So that's Instagram, X, formerly known as Twitter, Threads, Facebook, and LinkedIn.
这就是 Instagram、X，以前称为 Twitter、Threads、Facebook 和 LinkedIn。
And on all those social media platforms, I discuss science and science-related tools, some of which overlap with the content of the Huberman Lab podcast, but much of which is distinct from the content covered on the Huberman Lab podcast.
在所有这些社交媒体平台上，我讨论科学和与科学相关的工具，其中一些与胡伯曼实验室播客的内容重叠，但其中大部分与胡伯曼实验室播客涵盖的内容不同。
Again, that's Huberman Lab on all social media platforms.
再说一次，这就是所有社交媒体平台上的 Huberman Lab。
And if you haven't already subscribed to our Neural Network Newsletter, our Neural Network Newsletter is a zero-cost monthly newsletter that includes podcast summaries, as well as protocols in the form of brief one to three-page PDFs.
如果您还没有订阅我们的神经网络新闻通讯，我们的神经网络新闻通讯是一份零成本的每月新闻通讯，其中包括播客摘要以及一到三页 PDF 形式的协议。
These protocols cover things like deliberate cold exposure, deliberate heat exposure, how to optimize your dopamine, how to improve your sleep, all available at zero cost.
这些方案涵盖了诸如刻意冷暴露、刻意热暴露、如何优化多巴胺、如何改善睡眠等内容，所有这些都是零成本的。
To access these newsletters, simply go to hubermanlab.com, go to the top right corner menu, scroll down to Newsletter, and enter your email.
要访问这些新闻通讯，只需访问 hubermanlab.com，转到右上角菜单，向下滚动到新闻通讯，然后输入您的电子邮件。
And I should mention that we do not share your email with anybody.
我应该指出的是，我们不会与任何人分享您的电子邮件。
Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Shanna Swan.
再次感谢您参加今天与 Shanna Swan 博士的讨论。
And last but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.
最后但并非最不重要的一点是，感谢您对科学的兴趣。