Dr. Satchin Panda: Intermittent Fasting to Improve Health, Cognition & Longevity
Andrew Huberman: Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.
Andrew Huberman：欢迎来到 Huberman 实验室播客，我们在这里讨论科学和基于科学的日常生活工具。
I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.
我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。
Today, my guest is Dr. Satchin Panda.
今天，我的嘉宾是 Satchin Panda 博士。
Dr. Satchin Panda is a professor and director of the Regulatory Biology Laboratory at the Salk Institute of Biological Studies.
Satchin Panda 博士是索尔克生物研究所调节生物学实验室的教授兼主任。
His laboratory has made numerous important contributions that impact mental health, physical health and human performance.
他的实验室在影响心理健康、身体健康和人类表现方面做出了许多重要贡献。
For instance, his laboratory discovered the neurons in the eye and neurons within the brain that regulate our so-called circadian rhythms.
例如，他的实验室发现了眼睛中的神经元和大脑中调节我们所谓的昼夜节律的神经元。
Circadian rhythms are 24-hour rhythms in everything from gene expression to the overall functioning of tissues, our levels of mood and alertness, our ability to sleep, appetite, and much, much more.
昼夜节律是 24 小时的节律，涉及从基因表达到组织的整体功能、我们的情绪和警觉性水平、我们的睡眠能力、食欲等等。
In addition, over the last decade, Dr. Panda's laboratory has made critical discoveries in terms of how our patterns of eating over time impact our biology and our health.
此外，在过去的十年中，熊猫博士的实验室在我们的饮食模式如何影响我们的生物学和健康方面取得了重要发现。
In particular, his laboratory pioneered discoveries related to so-called intermittent fasting, also sometimes referred to as time-restricted feeding.
特别是，他的实验室开创了与所谓间歇性禁食有关的发现，有时也称为限时进食。
Today, Dr. Panda and I discuss how our circadian behaviors — everything from when we wake up to when we view light, to when we avoid viewing light, to when we eat and what we eat and when we socialize and how we socialize — impacts our biology and our psychology and how all of that has a strong impact on our health.
今天，熊猫博士和我讨论了我们的昼夜节律行为——从我们什么时候醒来、什么时候看到光、什么时候避免看到光、什么时候吃东西、吃什么、什么时候社交以及如何社交——如何影响我们的生物学和心理，以及所有这些如何对我们的健康产生强烈影响。
During today's discussion, you will learn how restricting your feeding to specific periods within each 24-hours cycle, or perhaps even exploring longer patterns of fasting and eating cycles, can impact everything from the health of your liver to your gut to your brain, and how all of that impacts things like mood and your ability to perform cognitive work.
在今天的讨论中，您将了解如何将进食限制在每个 24 小时周期内的特定时段，或者甚至探索更长的禁食和饮食周期模式，可以影响从肝脏健康到肠道健康再到大脑的各个方面，以及所有这些如何影响情绪和执行认知工作的能力等。
Indeed, today's discussion goes deep into all aspects of intermittent fasting, aka time-restricted feeding.
事实上，今天的讨论深入到间歇性禁食（又称限时喂养）的各个方面。
We talk about the basic science as well as the recent clinical trials that have explored time-restricted feeding in a diverse range of people, including men, women, children, people with diabetes, people who are otherwise healthy, and much, much more.
我们谈论基础科学以及最近的临床试验，这些试验在不同人群中探索了限时喂养，包括男性、女性、儿童、糖尿病患者、其他健康人群等等。
I'm quite aware that intermittent fasting is a topic of much debate these days.
我很清楚间歇性禁食是当今备受争议的话题。
We go deep into that debate, and by the end of today's discussion, you can be certain that you will have learned all the latest and all the details, all made very clear to you thanks to the incredible expertise, discovery and clear communication of Dr. Panda.
我们深入探讨这场辩论，在今天的讨论结束时，您可以确定您已经了解了所有最新的和所有的细节，这一切都归功于熊猫博士令人难以置信的专业知识、发现和清晰的沟通。
As some of you may already know, Dr. Panda has authored several important books on the topic of intermittent fasting and how it can benefit various aspects of health.
你们中有些人可能已经知道，熊猫博士撰写了几本关于间歇性禁食及其如何有益于健康各个方面的重要书籍。
Those books include "The Circadian Code" and a more recent book, "The Circadian Diabetes Code," both of which we've provided links to in the show note captions.
这些书包括《昼夜节律代码》和一本更新的书《昼夜节律糖尿病代码》，我们在节目注释标题中提供了这两本书的链接。
In addition, if any of you are interested in learning more about Dr. Panda's work, including seeing his publications and reading those publications, or supporting his laboratory, you can do that by going to his laboratory website, which we have also linked in the show note captions.
此外，如果你们有兴趣了解更多关于熊猫博士的工作，包括查看他的出版物并阅读这些出版物，或支持他的实验室，您可以访问他的实验室网站，我们也在节目说明标题中链接了该网站。
Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.
在开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。
It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero-cost-to-consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public.
然而，我的愿望和努力的一部分是将有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本消费者信息带给公众。
In keeping with that theme, I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast.
为了与这个主题保持一致，我要感谢今天播客的赞助商。
Our first sponsor is HVMN Ketone-IQ.
我们的第一个赞助商是 HVMN Ketone-IQ。
HVMN Ketone-IQ is a supplement that increases blood ketones.
HVMN Ketone-IQ 是一种增加血酮的补充剂。
I want to be clear that I am not following a ketogenic diet.
我想澄清的是，我没有遵循生酮饮食。
Most people fall into this category.
大多数人都属于这一类。
They are not following a ketogenic diet.
他们不遵循生酮饮食。
They are omnivores and they do eat carbohydrates, so their standard fuel source for the brain and body is not ketones.
它们是杂食动物，确实吃碳水化合物，因此它们大脑和身体的标准燃料来源不是酮。
However, I found that by taking Ketone-IQ, which we know increases blood ketones, I can achieve much better focus for longer periods of time for any kind of cognitive work and much greater energy levels for exercise, especially if I'm going into that exercise fasted and find myself a little bit hungry when I start that exercise.
然而，我发现，通过服用 Ketone-IQ（我们知道它会增加血酮），我可以在更长的时间内更好地集中精力进行任何类型的认知工作，并在锻炼时获得更大的能量水平，特别是如果我空腹进行锻炼，并且在开始锻炼时发现自己有点饿。
And this is no surprise.
这并不奇怪。
We know that ketones are the brain and body's preferred fuel source, even if you're not following a ketogenic diet.
我们知道，即使您没有遵循生酮饮食，酮也是大脑和身体的首选燃料来源。
So in other words, I and many other people are now starting to leverage endogenous ketones as a fuel source for the brain and body.
换句话说，我和许多其他人现在开始利用内源性酮作为大脑和身体的燃料来源。
And yet we are not following a ketogenic diet.
然而我们并没有遵循生酮饮食。
And of course, if you are following a ketogenic diet, Ketone-IQ will further allow you to increase your blood ketones as a source of brain and body fuel.
当然，如果您遵循生酮饮食，Ketone-IQ 将进一步让您增加血酮，作为大脑和身体燃料的来源。
If you'd like to try Ketone-IQ, you can go to hvmn.com/huberman to save 20% off your order.
如果您想尝试 Ketone-IQ，可以访问 hvmn.com/huberman 享受订单优惠 20%。
Again, that's hvmn.com/huberman.
同样，这是 hvmn.com/huberman。
Today's episode is also brought to us by Eight Sleep.
今天的节目也是八觉给我们带来的。
Eight Sleep makes smart mattress covers with cooling, heating and sleep-tracking capacity.
八睡眠公司生产具有冷却、加热和睡眠跟踪功能的智能床垫套。
As I've talked about before on the Huberman Lab podcast, there is a critical relationship between sleep and body temperature.
正如我之前在休伯曼实验室播客中谈到的那样，睡眠和体温之间存在着至关重要的关系。
That is, in order to fall asleep and stay deeply asleep, your body temperature needs to drop by about one to three degrees.
也就是说，为了入睡并保持深度睡眠，你的体温需要下降大约一到三度。
And in order to wake up in the morning and feel alert, your body temperature needs to increase by about one to three degrees.
为了早上醒来并保持警觉，您的体温需要升高约一到三度。
The problem with most people's sleeping environment is that even if you make the room cool, the actual environment that you sleep on, that is your mattress and underneath your covers, is hard to regulate in terms of temperature.
大多数人睡眠环境的问题在于，即使你让房间变得凉爽，你睡觉的实际环境，即你的床垫和你的被子下面，在温度方面也很难调节。
With Eight Sleep, regulating the temperature of that sleeping environment becomes incredibly easy.
有了八睡眠，调节睡眠环境的温度变得异常容易。
In fact, you can change the temperature of that environment across the night, making it a little bit cool at the beginning of the night, even cooler still a few hours into your sleep, which really helps getting into very deep sleep, and then warming it as you approach morning so that you wake up feeling most alert.
事实上，你可以在整个晚上改变环境的温度，让它在夜晚开始时有点凉爽，甚至在你入睡的几个小时内仍然凉爽，这确实有助于进入深度睡眠，然后在接近早晨时加热它，这样你醒来时感觉最清醒。
I've been sleeping on an Eight Sleep mattress cover for over a year now, and it has completely transformed my sleep.
我已经睡在八睡眠床垫罩上一年多了，它彻底改变了我的睡眠。
If you'd like to try Eight Sleep, you can go to eightsleep.com/huberman to save up to $150 off their Pod 3 Cover.
如果您想尝试八睡眠，您可以访问八睡眠.com/huberman，其 Pod 3 Cover 最多可节省 150 美元。
Eight Sleep currently ships in the U.S.A., Canada, U.K., select countries in the EU, and Australia.
八睡眠目前在美国、加拿大、英国、欧盟部分国家和澳大利亚发货。
Today's episode is also brought to us by Thesis.
今天的节目也是Thesis给我们带来的。
Thesis makes custom nootropics.
论文制作定制促智药。
Now, I am not a fan of the word nootropics because it translates to smart drugs.
现在，我不喜欢促智药这个词，因为它可以翻译为智能药物。
And as a neuroscientist, what I can tell you is that you have circuits in your brain that allow you to focus.
作为一名神经科学家，我可以告诉你的是，你的大脑中有一些回路可以让你集中注意力。
You have circuits in your brain that allow you to be creative.
你的大脑中有一些回路可以让你发挥创造力。
You have circuits in your brain that allow you to task switch, and on and on.
你的大脑中有一些电路可以让你不断地切换任务。
In other words, there is no specific brain circuit or even circuits for being "smart." Thesis understands this and has developed nootropics that are customized to different types of mental operations.
换句话说，不存在特定的大脑回路，甚至不存在“聪明”的回路。论文了解这一点，并开发了针对不同类型的心理操作定制的促智药。
What do I mean by that?
我这么说是什么意思？
Well, they have formulas that can put your brain into a state of increased clarity or focus or creativity or that can give you more overall energy for things like physical exercise.
嗯，他们有一些公式可以让你的大脑进入一种更加清晰、专注或创造力的状态，或者可以为你提供更多的整体能量来进行体育锻炼等事情。
I often take the Thesis Clarity formula prior to long bouts of cognitive work, and I'll use their Energy formula prior to doing any kind of really intense physical exercise.
我经常在长时间的认知工作之前使用论文清晰度公式，并且在进行任何类型的真正剧烈的体育锻炼之前我会使用他们的能量公式。
If you'd like to try your own personalized nootropic starter kit, go online to takethesis.com/huberman.
如果您想尝试自己的个性化促智入门套件，请上网访问 takethesis.com/huberman。
You'll take a brief three-minute quiz, and Thesis will send you four different formulas to try in your first month.
您将进行一个简短的三分钟测验，论文将向您发送四个不同的公式，供您在第一个月内尝试。
Again, that's takethesis.com/huberman.
同样，这是 takethesis.com/huberman。
And if you use the code Huberman at checkout, you'll get 10% off your order.
如果您在结帐时使用代码 Huberman，您将获得 10% 的订单折扣。
The Huberman Lab podcast is now partnered with Momentous Supplements.
Huberman Lab 播客现已与 Momentous Supplements 合作。
To find the supplements we discuss on the Huberman Lab podcast, you can go to livemomentous, spelled O-U-S, livemomentous.com/huberman.
要查找我们在 Huberman Lab 播客上讨论的补充剂，您可以访问 livemomentous，拼写为 O-U-S，livemomentous.com/huberman。
I should just mention that the library of those supplements is constantly expanding.
我只想提一下，这些补充品的库正在不断扩大。
Again, that's livemomentous.com/huberman.
再说一遍，这是 livemomentous.com/huberman。
And now for my discussion with Dr. Satchin Panda.
现在我与 Satchin Panda 博士进行讨论。
Satchin, Dr. Panda, so good to see you again.
Satchin，熊猫博士，很高兴再次见到你。
Satchin Panda: Yeah, great to see you.
Satchin Panda：是的，很高兴见到你。
Andrew Huberman: We are colleagues still, but we used to be right across the street from one another.
Andrew Huberman：我们仍然是同事，但我们曾经就在街对面。
Satchin Panda: Yeah, I remember those days.
Satchin Panda：是的，我记得那些日子。
Andrew Huberman: So I'm delighted that you're here.
Andrew Huberman：所以我很高兴你来到这里。
I think we're going to talk about a number of things, mainly intermittent fasting, time-restricted feeding and health, but also the many other things that you're doing.
我想我们会讨论很多事情，主要是间歇性禁食、限时进食和健康，还有你正在做的许多其他事情。
Just before we started recording, we were discussing your recent paper in Nature that involved recordings from postmortem human retina.
就在我们开始记录之前，我们正在讨论您最近在《自然》杂志上发表的论文，其中涉及来自死后人类视网膜的记录。
So maybe if there's time at the end we can get back to that your lab has shown that it can essentially maintain or resurrect neurons from dead people in order to potentially and eventually provide transplants to rescue vision in the blind.
因此，也许如果最后有时间的话，我们可以回顾一下你们的实验室已经证明，它基本上可以维持或复活死者的神经元，以便有可能并最终提供移植来挽救盲人的视力。
So that's extremely exciting, but, of course, not the main focus of today's discussion.
所以这非常令人兴奋，但当然不是今天讨论的主要焦点。
So we'll have to split it up.
所以我们必须把它分开。
The first question I have is, how am I supposed to define fasting and time-restricted feeding?
我的第一个问题是，我该如何定义禁食和限时喂养？
Meaning when I go to sleep every night, I'm not eating.
这意味着当我每天晚上睡觉时，我不吃东西。
So in some sense, everybody is doing time-restricted feeding to some degree or another.
所以从某种意义上说，每个人都在某种程度上进行限时喂养。
At what point can we start thinking about a pattern of eating as time-restricted feeding, so-called intermittent fasting?
我们什么时候可以开始考虑一种限时进食的饮食模式，即所谓的间歇性禁食？
Does it have to do with how regular one is about the start and stop times?
这是否与开始和停止时间的规律性有关？
How do you think about defining intermittent fasting?
您如何看待间歇性禁食的定义？
Time-restricted feeding, and maybe just to simplify the conversation, is one term more correct than the other in terms of describing this incredible pattern of feeding?
限时喂食，也许只是为了简化对话，在描述这种令人难以置信的喂食模式方面，一个术语比另一个术语更正确吗？
Satchin Panda: Well, you know that intermittent fasting covers many types of fasting.
Satchin Panda：嗯，你知道间歇性禁食涵盖了多种类型的禁食。
Actually, it started a long time ago, and it's embedded into the history of caloric restriction.
事实上，它很早以前就开始了，并且已经融入了热量限制的历史中。
Almost 100 years ago, people showed that if you reduce calorie intake in a rat, then that rat can live for a long time.
大约 100 年前，人们证明，如果减少老鼠的卡路里摄入量，那么这只老鼠就可以活很长时间。
And in those experiments, the calories were reduced every single day.
在这些实验中，卡路里每天都在减少。
And that led to the idea that if we cut down our calories by 20%, say, then we can potentially live longer by doing two things.
由此产生了这样的想法：如果我们将卡路里摄入量减少 20%，那么我们可以通过做两件事来延长寿命。
One is preventing age-related disease.
一是预防与年龄相关的疾病。
Or even if we fall sick, maybe we can accelerate, cure and keep the repair mechanism going so that we can live longer.
或者即使我们生病了，也许我们可以加速、治愈并保持修复机制的运转，这样我们就可以活得更久。
But it was very difficult to count calories every day and reduce, maintain that.
但每天计算卡路里并减少、维持它是非常困难的。
I must say that it's not that calorie restriction is impossible or we are not doing it.
我必须说，并不是说限制卡路里是不可能的，或者我们没有这样做。
In fact, a lot of us, we do count calories in our subconscious mind.
事实上，我们很多人都会在潜意识中计算卡路里。
Means every time we take out a soda bottle or something, I'm looking at it.
意味着每次我们拿出汽水瓶或其他东西时，我都会看着它。
Okay, 160 kilocalories, 30 kilocalories.
好吧，160大卡，30大卡。
Zero kilocalories.
零千卡。
We are doing that.
我们正在这样做。
So the point is, we are doing, subconsciously, some kind of calorie counting.
所以重点是，我们正在潜意识地进行某种卡路里计数。
But reducing calories by 20, 30% every single day is not possible for many people.
但每天减少 20%、30% 的卡路里对很多人来说是不可能的。
So then the idea came in mouse and rat experiments whether they can eat every other day.
于是，在小鼠实验中就出现了他们是否可以每隔一天吃东西的想法。
And in fact, this every other day feeding also led to very similar, almost equivalent health improvement as continuous calorie restriction.
事实上，每隔一天喂一次奶也能带来与持续限制热量摄入非常相似、几乎相同的健康改善效果。
So then the idea was, well, every other day is a little bit hard for humans, but just imagine, I would just get to eat only one day and then another day.
所以当时的想法是，每隔一天对人类来说有点困难，但想象一下，我只能一天吃东西，然后又一天。
Then the idea came, well, for humans, can they eat less for one or two days in the week.
然后就有了这样的想法，那么，对于人类来说，一周中能不能少吃一两天呢？
So that led to this five-two diet where people can eat for five days and then two days, they have to reduce calories.
因此，这就导致了这种五二饮食法，人们可以吃五天，然后两天，他们必须减少卡路里。
So, also, intermittently, people are fasting.
因此，人们也会间歇性地禁食。
Then, as you know, Valter Longo also came up with this idea that periodic fasting, maybe four or five days in every month or two months, three months, you can fast or reduce calories, and he also found many benefits of calorie restriction.
然后大家知道，Valter Longo也提出了这个想法，定期禁食，可能每个月或者两个月、三个月里有四五天，就可以禁食或者减少热量，而且他还发现了限制热量的很多好处。
Andrew Huberman: Were those studies on humans?
安德鲁·休伯曼：这些研究是针对人类的吗？
Satchin Panda: Many of the studies started in mice.
Satchin Panda：许多研究都是从老鼠身上开始的。
But alternate day fasting, five-two, and Valter's periodic fasting, all of them have now been done in humans.
但隔日禁食、五两禁食和瓦尔特定期禁食，所有这些现在都已在人类身上进行过。
Not for longevity, of course, because we cannot do those for a long time, but for weight maintenance, for reducing some signs of aging or reversing.
当然，不是为了长寿，因为我们不能长期这样做，而是为了维持体重，为了减少一些衰老或逆转的迹象。
Those things have been done.
这些事情已经完成了。
So all of them have been done in humans, mostly healthy humans, and in some cases, people with prediabetes or some aspects of metabolic disease.
因此，所有这些都是在人类身上进行的，其中大部分是健康人类，在某些情况下，是患有糖尿病前期或某些代谢疾病的人。
So that led to the idea that all these forms of fasting in which the total calorie intake on any given day is reduced for one or more days in a week or month, that umbrella term became intermittent fasting.
因此，这就产生了这样的想法：所有这些形式的禁食，其中任何一天的总卡路里摄入量在一周或一个月的一天或多天中减少，这个总括术语变成了间歇性禁食。
So if you look up the scientific literature, most intermittent fasting involves intentionally reducing calories for at least one or two days in a week or few days in a month.
因此，如果你查阅科学文献，大多数间歇性禁食都涉及每周至少一两天或每月几天有意减少卡路里摄入量。
So when we publish time-restricted feeding, the initial mouse experiments, and even now, most of the mouse experiments, we want to test what is the impact of time restriction versus calorie restriction.
因此，当我们发布时间限制喂养、最初的小鼠实验，甚至现在的大多数小鼠实验时，我们想要测试时间限制与卡路里限制的影响。
So in these experiments, we don't reduce calories on any day of a mouse's life.
因此，在这些实验中，我们不会在小鼠一生中的任何一天减少卡路里摄入量。
So the mice eat the same number of calories as the ad libitum-fed mice, but still they see health benefit.
因此，小鼠摄入的热量与随意喂养的小鼠相同，但它们仍然看到了健康益处。
So that's why we call it time-restricted feeding.
这就是为什么我们称之为限时喂养。
But since it involves living without food for several hours for some people, which can be very difficult, the initial experiments were done.
但由于这对某些人来说需要几个小时不吃东西，这可能非常困难，因此进行了初步实验。
They were done for eight hours of feeding and 16 hours of fasting.
他们进行了 8 小时的喂食和 16 小时的禁食。
That kind of became popular.
那种方式开始流行。
And so that's why people use the same term as intermittent fasting.
这就是为什么人们使用与间歇性禁食相同的术语。
And now, if you say intermittent fasting in popular literature or popular media, then people usually refer to time-restricted eating.
现在，如果你在流行文学或流行媒体中提到间歇性禁食，那么人们通常指的是限时饮食。
So now, coming back to how do you define time-restricted feeding?
那么现在，回到如何定义限时喂养的问题上来？
So the way we have been trying to define it experimentally and also in literature is trying to confine all your energy intake from solid and liquid food combined within a consistent window of eight to 12 hours, because that's something that's doable.
因此，我们一直试图通过实验和文献来定义它的方式是尝试将固体和液体食物的所有能量摄入限制在 8 到 12 小时的一致时间内，因为这是可行的。
Of course, people have done time-restricted feeding for four hours, six hours, and some people even try to eat everything within two hours one meal a day.
当然，人们也做过四小时、六小时的限时喂食，有的人甚至尝试一天一餐两小时内吃完所有东西。
But the point is, those are not feasible to maintain for a very long time for a lot of people.
但关键是，对于很多人来说，长期维持这些是不可行的。
Andrew Huberman: One question about the six-hour versus eight-hour versus 12-hour feeding window.
Andrew Huberman：一个关于 6 小时、8 小时和 12 小时喂养窗口的问题。
Is it important that the feeding window begin and end at the same time more or less?
喂养窗口或多或少同时开始和结束重要吗？
And if so, how much flexibility is there?
如果是的话，灵活性有多大？
So, for instance, I'm somebody that I am not terribly hungry in the morning.
举例来说，我是一个早上不太饿的人。
I like to drink water, usually some caffeine and electrolytes in the period before my first meal.
我喜欢在第一顿饭前喝水，通常是一些咖啡因和电解质。
And my first meal always lands sometime between 11 a.m.
我的第一顿饭总是在上午 11 点之间的某个时间。
and 12 noon.
和中午12点。
There are exceptions.
但也有例外。
Occasionally I'll have a breakfast, a proper breakfast, as it's called.
偶尔我会吃一顿早餐，一顿正经的早餐，正如它所说的那样。
I guess it would be improper if you're intermittent fasting for me.
我想如果你对我来说间歇性禁食是不合适的。
But typically 11 a.m.
但通常是上午 11 点
or noon is when I first eat.
或者中午是我第一次吃饭的时候。
And my last bite of food is typically around 8:30 and 9 p.m.
我最后一口食物通常是在晚上 8:30 和 9 点左右。
That's what works for me.
这对我有用。
Is that consistency affording me any benefit?
这种一致性能给我带来任何好处吗？
And let's just leave aside total caloric number, macronutrients, plant-based, meat, etc. But is there any benefit to shortening that feeding window that we are aware of or extending that feeding window or being even more rigid about the start and end of that feeding window?
我们先把总热量、宏量营养素、植物性食物、肉类等放在一边。但是，缩短我们知道的喂养窗口、延长喂养窗口、或者对喂养窗口的开始和结束更加严格，有什么好处吗？
Satchin Panda: Yeah, so the start of the feeding window, that's interesting, because the concept of time-restricted feeding, when I describe animal studies, it's feeding, for humans, it's eating.
Satchin Panda：是的，所以喂养窗口的开始，这很有趣，因为限时喂养的概念，当我描述动物研究时，它是喂养，对于人类来说，它是进食。
So the concept actually came from the science of circadian rhythm.
所以这个概念实际上来自昼夜节律科学。
So that means our body has an internal timetable that's present in every cell, in every organ, that preprograms many molecular aspects of the cells that leads to physiology and all that stuff.
所以这意味着我们的身体有一个内部时间表，存在于每个细胞、每个器官中，它对细胞的许多分子方面进行了预先编程，从而导致生理学和所有这些东西。
So that essentially there is a predetermined timetable for every cell, every organ to do certain things at certain times.
因此，本质上每个细胞、每个器官都有一个预定的时间表，在特定的时间做特定的事情。
And the circadian clocks, as you and I know, are more sensitive to light.
正如你和我所知，生物钟对光更加敏感。
Light is the most dominant time giver.
光是最主要的时间给予者。
So, for example, when daylight saving time changes, or when we travel from one time zone to another time zone, we feel kind of crappy because our daily activities are out of sync with our internal clock.
因此，例如，当夏令时改变时，或者当我们从一个时区旅行到另一个时区时，我们会感觉有点糟糕，因为我们的日常活动与我们的生物钟不同步。
So that was known for a very long time.
所以这很长一段时间以来都是众所周知的。
But then around the year 2000, 2002, there was a famous experiment by Ueli Schibler from Switzerland.
但在2000年、2002年左右，瑞士的Ueli Schibler做了一个著名的实验。
What he did, he just fed the mice at the wrong time.
他所做的只是在错误的时间喂老鼠。
Mice are nocturnal, they're night feeders, and when he fed the mice during daytime, the liver clock, instead of following its own routine, the liver clock actually started following food.
老鼠是夜间活动的，它们是夜间喂食者，当他在白天喂食老鼠时，肝脏时钟实际上开始跟随食物，而不是遵循自己的惯例。
So that means by changing our feeding time, we can tune our liver clock.
所以这意味着通过改变我们的进食时间，我们可以调整我们的肝脏时钟。
And subsequently the same experiment has been repeated many times.
随后，同样的实验被重复了很多次。
And even we repeated that in 2009 and we figured out, yes, actually outside this brain center called suprachiasmatic nucleus, or SCN, which is considered the master circadian clock, almost the rest of the brain even follows when we eat.
即使我们在 2009 年重复了这一点，我们还是发现，是的，实际上，在这个被称为视交叉上核（SCN）的大脑中心（它被认为是主要的生物钟）之外，几乎大脑的其余部分甚至在我们吃饭时也会跟随。
And that came out from Pierre Chambon's lab in Europe, where they systematically looked at even places that are very close to the SCN, for those who know, dorsomedial hypothalamus, paraventricular nucleus, all of this within couple of, 4 or 5 millimeters of the SCN.
这是来自欧洲 Pierre Chambon 的实验室，他们系统地研究了甚至非常靠近 SCN 的地方，对于那些知道的人来说，下丘脑背内侧、室旁核，所有这些都在距 SCN 几毫米、4 或 5 毫米的范围内。
But they were following food cues.
但他们遵循食物线索。
Andrew Huberman: Amazing.
安德鲁·休伯曼：太棒了。
Satchin Panda: So then, now if we think about it, for example, when daylight saving time changes, just one-hour change or one-hour change in alignment between our internal time and external time leads to kind of feeling groggy and feeling out of peak performance for one or two days.
Satchin Panda：那么，现在如果我们想一想，例如，当夏令时发生变化时，只要改变一小时，或者我们的内部时间和外部时间之间的对齐改变一小时，就会导致一种昏昏沉沉的感觉，感觉在一两天内没有达到最佳状态。
So the rule of thumb is when the time giver changes by one hour, then our internal clock takes at least a day to catch up.
因此，经验法则是，当时间提供者改变一小时时，我们的内部时钟至少需要一天的时间才能跟上。
So that means if you're flying from LA to New York, you're moving through three time zones, then on an average it will take three days to catch up with the New York time.
因此，这意味着如果您从洛杉矶飞往纽约，您将穿越三个时区，那么平均需要三天才能赶上纽约时间。
For some people it can be even slower, and for some people it can be two days.
对于某些人来说可能会更慢，对于某些人来说可能需要两天。
But the bottom line is, yes, there is a desynchrony.
但最重要的是，是的，存在不同步。
So then what does it mean for the body?
那么它对身体意味着什么呢？
So one of the functions of the clock is to anticipate when you are going to wake up, for example.
例如，时钟的功能之一就是预测您何时醒来。
So the blood pressure slightly goes up, our heart rate goes up, our breathing goes up.
因此，血压会稍微升高，心率会加快，呼吸也会加快。
Similarly for food, almost every organ that is involved in feeding or eating, digestion, all of them have clocks.
对于食物来说也是如此，几乎每个与进食、进食、消化有关的器官都有时钟。
So even from saliva production, that is the first phase of digestion to secretion of all the digestive juice in the stomach and then absorption of nutrients, then liver metabolism.
所以即使是从唾液产生开始，也就是消化的第一阶段，到胃里分泌出所有的消化液，然后吸收营养，然后肝脏代谢。
Everything...
一切...
the whole village expects when you're supposed to eat, and they're getting ready for you to eat the first meal after fasting for a long time.
全村人都在期待你什么时候该吃饭，他们正在为你准备好长时间禁食后的第一顿饭。
So that's why it's breaking the fast or breakfast.
这就是为什么要打破禁食或早餐。
And when that time changes, when you change it by two or three hours from one day to another, then sometimes they're like, oh, food didn't come, maybe will come at the wrong time, we were at the wrong time.
当时间改变时，当你从一天到另一天改变两三个小时时，有时他们会说，哦，食物没有来，也许会在错误的时间来，我们来的时间不对。
And then they will track the new eating times.
然后他们会跟踪新的饮食时间。
So suppose one day you have been eating every day at 8 a.m.
假设有一天你每天早上 8 点吃饭。
I eat at 8 a.m.
我早上8点吃饭
Andrew Huberman: Is that when you start your feeding window?
Andrew Huberman：那是你开始喂食的时间吗？
When does your feeding window shut?
你的喂食窗口什么时候关闭？
Satchin Panda: Six p.m.
Satchin 熊猫：下午六点
So I eat for around 10 hours.
所以我吃了大约10个小时。
Okay, yeah.
好吧，是的。
And then one day, if I switch to 10 a.m., then what happens is a clock is thinking, well, the food didn't arrive at eight, but it arrived at 10.
然后有一天，如果我切换到上午 10 点，那么会发生的情况是，时钟会思考，好吧，食物没有在 8 点到达，而是在 10 点到达。
Maybe tomorrow the food will arrive somewhere between 8 and 10.
也许明天食物会在 8 点到 10 点之间到达。
So we'll be ready around nine.
所以我们会在九点左右准备好。
Next day.
第二天。
If I come back and eat at 8:00 then I may eat, but my clock is not ready to digest that food.
如果我在 8:00 回来吃饭，那么我可能会吃东西，但我的时钟还没有准备好消化这些食物。
So that's why this idea is, you have to be consistent to take advantage of this anticipatory activity of our clock in different systems to get the best out of it.
这就是为什么这个想法是，你必须保持一致，才能利用我们时钟在不同系统中的这种预期活动，以充分利用它。
Andrew Huberman: Is there evidence that those anticipatory systems, as they relate to digestion, help us better assimilate our food?
安德鲁·休伯曼：有证据表明这些与消化有关的预期系统可以帮助我们更好地吸收食物吗？
I would imagine so.
我想是这样。
I mean, if you have the gastric juices that are going to help digest the proteins, fats and carbohydrates and are already deployed at the time when you eat, I could imagine that food will be better utilized than if you don't.
我的意思是，如果你有胃液来帮助消化蛋白质、脂肪和碳水化合物，并且在你吃东西的时候就已经被利用了，我可以想象食物会比你没有胃液时得到更好的利用。
So in other words, what is the advantage of having these anticipatory signals in terms of potential health benefits?
换句话说，就潜在的健康益处而言，拥有这些预期信号有何优势？
Satchin Panda: The anticipatory signal is really important even from waking up.
Satchin Panda：即使从醒来时起，预期信号也非常重要。
The reason why many people feel not ready completely when they wake up to an alarm clock is because the alarm clock wakes you up, but your body is not prepared.
很多人之所以在被闹钟叫醒时感觉没有完全准备好，是因为闹钟叫醒了你，但你的身体还没有准备好。
So that sleepiness after waking up to an alarm clock is due to that our body is not prepared for that.
所以，被闹钟叫醒后犯困是因为我们的身体还没有做好准备。
And then the best example is when the daylight saving time changes, particularly when we have to wake up one hour early.
最好的例子是夏令时改变时，特别是当我们必须提前一小时起床时。
What happens?
会发生什么？
People who have an underlying heart condition when they are waking up, when the body is not ready or heart is not ready, and all of a sudden the heart has to start pumping a little bit harder.
患有潜在心脏病的人在醒来时，当身体尚未准备好或心脏尚未准备好时，突然心脏必须开始更加用力地跳动。
Then there is a chance of heart attack.
那么就有可能心脏病发作。
And in fact, people have looked at hospital records and they find that on those days there is a sharp rise in heart attacks.
事实上，人们查看了医院记录，发现那些日子里心脏病发作的人数急剧上升。
Andrew Huberman: And car accidents.
安德鲁·休伯曼：还有车祸。
Satchin Panda: And car accidents too, because your brain is not coordinated, so you cannot make those fine decisions.
Satchin Panda：还有车祸，因为你的大脑不协调，所以你无法做出那些正确的决定。
So that's a great example of anticipatory activity.
这是预期活动的一个很好的例子。
But coming back to digestion, one thing is, and this is something that many people might have experienced, there are many rhythms in our digestive system, and one of the rhythms is that our intestine has this peristaltic function.
但是回到消化方面，有一点是，这个可能很多人都经历过，我们的消化系统有很多节律，其中一个节律就是我们的肠道有这个蠕动功能。
So it kind of contracts and expands and that moves.
所以它会收缩、扩张并移动。
Food doesn't move due to gravity, so it goes back and forth.
食物不会因重力而移动，因此会来回移动。
And that peristaltic action actually slows down at night, a few hours after our last meal.
而这种蠕动实际上在晚上（即我们最后一顿饭后几个小时）会减慢。
That's why when people eat late at night, for example, then that food doesn't get digested because there is not enough digestive juice first thing.
这就是为什么当人们在深夜吃东西时，食物就不会被消化，因为首先没有足够的消化液。
And second, even if it gets digested in the stomach, it doesn't move properly.
其次，即使它在胃里被消化，它也不能正常移动。
So then the next morning, people get up and think, of course, people consume some alcohol very often, and then they think that this is a hangover.
所以第二天早上，人们起床后想，当然，人们经常喝酒，然后他们认为这是宿醉。
But those who don't consume alcohol, then they have the food hangover because it doesn't digest.
但那些不喝酒的人则会因为食物不消化而出现宿醉。
So that's one extreme example where food at the wrong time can, healthy food at the wrong time can be crap or junk.
这是一个极端的例子，在错误的时间吃食物可能会导致健康食品在错误的时间变得垃圾或垃圾。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, I've experienced that where if I've worked late or I couldn't eat dinner or something, and then I get home, I always debate whether or not to try and sleep.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：是的，我有过这样的经历，如果我工作到很晚或者吃不了晚饭什么的，然后我回到家，我总是会考虑是否要睡觉。
But if I'm too hungry, oftentimes it's challenging.
但如果我太饿了，通常会很困难。
And so, for me, sometimes consuming something that at least seems easily digestible, like yogurt or something in a liquid form, is better for me than if I eat a meal.
因此，对我来说，有时吃一些至少看起来容易消化的东西，比如酸奶或液体形式的东西，对我来说比吃饭更好。
I've made the mistake of going to the refrigerator, being super hungry and eating a bunch of food at 10 or 11 p.m.
我犯过一个错误：晚上 10 点或 11 点非常饿，就去冰箱吃了一堆食物。
and then falling asleep.
然后就睡着了。
And indeed, the sleep, if I'm tired enough, can be quite deep, but the next morning, I feel just completely physically and cognitively weighed down.
事实上，如果我足够累的话，睡眠可能会很深，但第二天早上，我感觉身体和认知上完全沉重。
So I think what you just described makes a lot of sense.
所以我认为你刚才描述的很有道理。
So if someone were to select a feeding window, regardless of whether or not it falls into classic intermittent fasting, time-restricted feeding, sounds like eating your first bite of food and eating your last bite of food at more or less the same time each day has benefits.
因此，如果有人要选择一个喂食窗口，无论是否属于经典的间歇性禁食、限时喂食，听起来每天或多或少在同一时间吃第一口食物和吃最后一口食物都是有好处的。
I have this question, you mentioned feeding versus eating, and I think it's actually not just a grammatical semantic issue, and here's why.
我有这个问题，你提到了喂食与进食，我认为这实际上不仅仅是一个语法语义问题，这就是原因。
We tend to think about when you take your first bite of food and then when you take your last bite of food.
我们倾向于考虑您何时吃第一口食物，然后何时吃最后一口食物。
But of course, foods digest at different rates.
但当然，食物的消化速度不同。
More fat in there is going to digest, make carbohydrates, digest slower, etc. I mean, there's all these adjustments to the glycemic index and so forth with foods in combination.
更多的脂肪会被消化，产生碳水化合物，消化速度变慢，等等。我的意思是，所有这些调整都与食物的组合有关。
Is it better to think about not eating, but your fed state and blood sugar?
考虑不吃东西，而是考虑你的进食状态和血糖是不是更好？
So, for instance, I often get asked on social media, does blank break a fast?
例如，我经常在社交媒体上被问到，空白会打破禁食吗？
I like to think about it scientifically, like, okay, does plain water break a fast?
我喜欢科学地思考这个问题，比如，白开水可以打破禁食吗？
No. Does air break a fast?
不会。空气会破坏禁食吗？
No. Does one grain of sugar, of sucrose, break a fast?
不。一粒糖、蔗糖可以打破禁食吗？
Well, probably not, but does one teaspoon of sugar break a fast?
嗯，可能不会，但是一茶匙糖可以打破禁食吗？
Well, you could say yes, but transiently, when we're talking about breaking a fast, are we talking about a rise in blood glucose, or are there molecular signals downstream of a rise in blood glucose that cannot be reversed?
好吧，你可以说是的，但暂时来说，当我们谈论打破禁食时，我们是在谈论血糖升高，还是血糖升高的下游存在无法逆转的分子信号？
In other words, if I'm going to eat my first meal every day at noon, and I'm going to eat my last bite of food at 8 p.m., and at 9 a.m., for whatever reason, I have coffee with one teaspoon of sugar in it.
换句话说，如果我每天中午吃第一顿饭，晚上 8 点和上午 9 点吃最后一口食物，无论出于什么原因，我都会喝加一茶匙糖的咖啡。
I suppose in the strictest sense, I've broken my fast.
我想从最严格的意义上来说，我已经打破了禁食。
But maybe if I went for a hard run that morning, maybe by 9:30 a.m.
但如果那天早上我去努力跑步的话，也许到上午 9:30 就可以了。
I'm back in a "fasted state." So what is the fasted state really?
我又回到了“禁食状态”。那么到底什么是禁食状态呢？
Because when I'm eating at 8 p.m., just to give another example, I start fasting at 8:01, perhaps, but my blood glucose is elevated, so I'm not really fasted.
因为当我晚上8点吃饭时，再举一个例子，我可能在8点01分开始禁食，但我的血糖升高了，所以我并没有真正禁食。
I'm fed.
我吃饱了。
It's just that I'm not "eating," the verb, right?
只是我没有用“吃”这个动词，对吧？
Okay, again, I don't want to get overly detailed just for sake of getting detailed, but I think a lot of the confusion out there about what breaks a fast is related specifically to this issue, which is if I eat a whole pizza after sitting around all day, it's very different than if I eat a whole pizza after having run a 26-miles marathon that day.
好吧，再说一次，我不想为了详细而说得太详细，但我认为，关于什么打破禁食的很多困惑都与这个问题特别相关，也就是说，如果我在闲坐一整天后吃整个披萨，这与我那天跑完 26 英里马拉松后吃整个披萨有很大不同。
Very different, metabolically speaking.
从新陈代谢的角度来说，非常不同。
So how should people think about fasted versus fed?
那么人们应该如何看待禁食与进食呢？
Can we be mildly fasted versus severely fasted?
我们可以轻度禁食还是重度禁食？
Can we be fed-ish versus very fed?
我们可以吃得饱饱的，还是吃得很饱的吗？
Anyway, I'll stop asking questions now because they all relate to the same theme.
不管怎样，我现在不再问问题了，因为它们都与同一个主题相关。
Satchin Panda: Yeah, no, these are very interesting questions.
Satchin Panda：是的，不，这些都是非常有趣的问题。
And unfortunately, as you might have seen in life, the most obvious questions are often unanswered because it's so hard to do these damn experiments.
不幸的是，正如你在生活中可能看到的那样，最明显的问题往往没有答案，因为做这些该死的实验太难了。
Because if you really want to address this in humans, you have to bring humans, put them in isolation, just like you said.
因为如果你真的想在人类身上解决这个问题，你就必须把人类带进来，把他们隔离起来，就像你说的那样。
I can now imagine planning five or six different experiments.
我现在可以想象计划五到六个不同的实验。
Each experiment should involve eight or 10 volunteers, each gender, sex, and then do it.
每个实验应该涉及八到十个志愿者，每个性别、性别，然后去做。
So it's difficult.
所以这很难。
So now let's go back to see how do we...
那么现在让我们回过头来看看我们如何...
let's dissect it in terms of, say, indirect calorimetry.
让我们用间接量热法来剖析它。
So, for example, indirect calorimetry is based on this principle that whatever oxygen we breathe in and carbon dioxide we breathe out, if we can measure these two, then we can figure out whether our body, in total, we are not saying whether it's the liver, gut, or fat or muscle in total, whether it's consuming glucose or fat as energy source.
例如，间接量热法基于这样的原理：无论我们吸入多少氧气，呼出多少二氧化碳，如果我们能够测量这两者，那么我们就可以弄清楚我们的身体是否总体上，我们不是说它是肝脏、肠道、脂肪或肌肉的总体，还是消耗葡萄糖或脂肪作为能量来源。
The idea is when we are without food for several hours, then ideally our body will tap into glycogen first and then do a little bit of fat.
这个想法是，当我们几个小时没有食物时，理想情况下我们的身体会首先利用糖原，然后再消耗一点脂肪。
And then when the body is mostly running on fat, then that ratio of CO2 to oxygen will come to 0.7.
然后，当身体主要依靠脂肪运转时，二氧化碳与氧气的比率将达到 0.7。
But what is interesting is we can do these experiments in mice.
但有趣的是我们可以在小鼠身上进行这些实验。
So we can go to mice and ask, okay, so what happens in mice?
所以我们可以去找老鼠问问，好吧，那么老鼠身上会发生什么？
So in mice, mice are a little bit very different, because mice are not simply little people.
所以对于老鼠来说，老鼠有点非常不同，因为老鼠不仅仅是小人。
The metabolism is different.
新陈代谢不一样。
They store relatively less glycogen than humans do in terms of total metabolism.
就总代谢而言，它们储存的糖原比人类相对较少。
So overnight, within 12 to 14 hours, the RER, respiratory exchange ratio, or this ratio will go from one when they're consuming mostly glucose or carbohydrate as energy source, it will slow down, slowly go to 0.7, 0.75.
所以一夜之间，在 12 到 14 小时内，RER，呼吸交换比率，或者这个比率将从 1（当他们主要消耗葡萄糖或碳水化合物作为能量来源时），它会减慢，慢慢地变成 0.7，0.75。
So after 12 to 14 hours, they're kind of mostly running on fat.
因此，12 到 14 小时后，他们大部分时间都在靠脂肪运转。
Now, as we give them food, within 10 or 15 minutes, they're not actually consuming a couple of grams of food.
现在，当我们给他们食物时，在 10 或 15 分钟内，他们实际上并没有消耗几克食物。
They might have consumed, say, 100 or 200 milligrams of that chow, which is less than, say, 5% of that food.
他们可能消耗了 100 或 200 毫克的食物，比方说，不到食物的 5%。
And then the RER will immediately begin to rise as if that small amount of food stopped that fat-burning process and cranked up the carbohydrate burning process.
然后 RER 将立即开始上升，就好像少量食物停止了脂肪燃烧过程并加速了碳水化合物燃烧过程一样。
Andrew Huberman: When you say fat-burning process, you mean body fat stores being burned, right?
Andrew Huberman：当你说脂肪燃烧过程时，你的意思是身体脂肪储存被燃烧，对吗？
Not dietary fat, correct?
不是膳食脂肪，对吗？
Satchin Panda: Yeah.
萨钦熊猫：是的。
So it's all body fat.
所以都是身体脂肪。
That's why I said we don't know where that fat is being burned because we are just measuring how much mice are breathing in and out.
这就是为什么我说我们不知道脂肪在哪里燃烧，因为我们只是测量老鼠吸气和呼气的次数。
So, for example, it can be from the skin.
例如，它可能来自皮肤。
So subcutaneous fat or belly fat--
所以皮下脂肪或腹部脂肪——
Andrew Huberman: --But not dietary fat.
安德鲁·休伯曼：——但不是膳食脂肪。
Satchin Panda: No. By that time, the dietary fat is already absorbed and digested.
Satchin Panda：不会。到那时，膳食脂肪已经被吸收和消化了。
And hopefully it's sitting in the liver or adipose tissue somewhere.
希望它位于肝脏或脂肪组织的某个地方。
But it's the fat that's body fat.
但脂肪才是身体脂肪。
Yes, thank you.
是的，谢谢。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
The reason I ask is that nowadays I think more than half of the battles about nutrition that I see online relate to this issue where, I won't name names, but someone will come along and say, low-carbohydrate diet allows you to burn more fat.
我问这个问题的原因是，现在我认为我在网上看到的有关营养的争论中有一半以上都与这个问题有关，我不会点名，但有人会过来说，低碳水化合物饮食可以让你燃烧更多的脂肪。
And the more nuanced people out there will say, well, that's true, but you're also talking about dietary fat.
更细致的人会说，嗯，这是真的，但你也在谈论膳食脂肪。
The word "fat" can confuse people.
“胖”这个词可能会让人感到困惑。
I realize you're not doing that.
我知道你没有这样做。
You are certainly not one of the people guilty of doing this, but indeed, you eat more fat, you'll burn more fat, but that doesn't mean you'll burn more body fat.
你当然不是这样做的人之一，但事实上，你吃更多的脂肪，你会燃烧更多的脂肪，但这并不意味着你会燃烧更多的身体脂肪。
In fact, I think the data say that under conditions of caloric restriction, you'll actually burn less.
事实上，我认为数据表明，在热量限制的条件下，你实际上会燃烧更少。
I hope I don't, I'll probably get pitchforks sent through the mail toward me on that one, but I think that's true.
我希望我不会，我可能会收到通过邮件寄给我的干草叉，但我认为这是真的。
Whereas people who consume carbohydrates can still burn body fat, even though the majority of the fuel they're burning is from carbohydrates.
而消耗碳水化合物的人仍然可以燃烧体内脂肪，尽管他们燃烧的大部分燃料来自碳水化合物。
Satchin Panda: So here in this case, for example, for mice, we know that as soon as they start eating, the RER goes up.
Satchin Panda：所以在这种情况下，例如，对于老鼠，我们知道一旦它们开始进食，RER就会上升。
Coming back to your question, what would be ideal for us to do?
回到你的问题，我们最理想的做法是什么？
The experiment would be, okay, so we'll go back to that, and then give the mouse maybe 100 milligrams of food and the mouse runs around in the cage, and then we'll continue to measure to see how long it takes for the mouse to come back.
实验是，好吧，我们会回到那个，然后给老鼠大约 100 毫克的食物，老鼠在笼子里跑来跑去，然后我们将继续测量，看看老鼠需要多长时间才能回来。
So that's one aspect.
这是一方面。
So now let's see, let's stay on this and then I'll come back and talk about noncaloric food and whether that is considered healthy.
现在让我们看看，让我们继续讨论这个问题，然后我会回来讨论无热量食物以及它是否被认为是健康的。
Andrew Huberman: I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, Athletic Greens.
Andrew Huberman：我想稍微休息一下，并感谢我们的赞助商之一，Athletic Greens。
Athletic Greens, now called AG1, is a vitamin-mineral-probiotic drink that covers all of your foundational nutritional needs.
Athletic Greens（现称为 AG1）是一种维生素-矿物质-益生菌饮料，可满足您的所有基本营养需求。
I've been taking Athletic Greens since 2012, so I'm delighted that they're sponsoring the podcast.
我自 2012 年以来一直在服用 Athletic Greens，所以我很高兴他们赞助这个播客。
The reason I started taking Athletic Greens and the reason I still take Athletic Greens once or usually twice a day Is that it gets me the probiotics that I need for gut health.
我开始服用运动绿色食品的原因以及我仍然每天服用一次或通常两次运动绿色食品的原因是它为我提供了肠道健康所需的益生菌。
Our gut is very important.
我们的直觉非常重要。
It's populated by gut microbiota that communicate with the brain, the immune system and basically all the biological systems of our body to strongly impact our immediate and long-term health.
它充满了肠道微生物群，它们与大脑、免疫系统和基本上我们身体的所有生物系统进行交流，对我们的近期和长期健康产生强烈影响。
And those probiotics and Athletic Greens are optimal and vital for microbiotic health.
这些益生菌和运动绿色食品对于微生物健康来说是最佳且至关重要的。
In addition, Athletic Greens contains a number of adaptogens, vitamins and minerals that make sure that all of my foundational nutritional needs are met, and it tastes great.
此外，运动绿叶蔬菜含有多种适应原、维生素和矿物质，可确保满足我所有的基本营养需求，而且味道极佳。
If you'd like to try Athletic Greens, you can go to athleticgreens.com/huberman and they'll give you five free travel packs that make it really easy to mix up Athletic Greens while you're on the road, in the car, on the plane, etc. And they'll give you a year's supply of vitamin D3K2.
如果您想尝试 Athletic Greens，您可以访问 Athletic Greens.com/huberman，他们会为您提供 5 个免费旅行包，让您在路上、车内、飞机上等时轻松混合 Athletic Greens。他们还会为您提供一年的维生素 D3K2 供应量。
Again, that's athleticgreens.com/huberman to get the five free travel packs and the year's supply of vitamin D3K2.
再次强调，您可以访问 sportsgreens.com/huberman 获取 5 个免费旅行包和全年维生素 D3K2 供应。
Satchin Panda: So there is a famous experiment that was published last year by Joe Takahashi's lab, and it came out in Science, and that relates to caloric restriction.
Satchin Panda：高桥乔的实验室去年发表了一个著名的实验，它发表在《科学》杂志上，与热量限制有关。
And we kind of started with this idea.
我们就是从这个想法开始的。
We started discussing that the rat experiments were done with caloric restriction, and researchers reduced calorie consumption by 20% or 30% and gave that food to the rats, and then subsequently mice, and they all lived longer.
我们开始讨论老鼠实验是在限制热量的情况下进行的，研究人员将热量消耗减少了 20% 或 30%，并将这些食物给老鼠，然后是老鼠，它们都活得更长。
What is interesting is, in all those experiments, the researchers came and gave this bolus of food at one time.
有趣的是，在所有这些实验中，研究人员都一次性给予了这一团食物。
Whereas the ad libitum-fed mice or rats, they had access to food all the time.
而随意喂养的小鼠或大鼠则可以随时获取食物。
So they were eating all the time, and then these rats were given 20% less.
所以他们一直在吃东西，然后这些老鼠的摄入量减少了 20%。
And what happens is, these mice or rats, they're not going to take that less food, which is less for now, and just eat a little bit of lunch, and then snack after three hours.
所发生的情况是，这些小鼠或大鼠不会吃那么少的食物（目前还较少），只吃一点午餐，然后在三个小时后吃零食。
They gobble up all that food within two to three hours, maximum four hours, the food is gone.
它们会在两到三个小时内吞掉所有食物，最多四个小时，食物就消失了。
Andrew Huberman: So they're sort of on the OMAD diet, the one-meal-a-day diet.
Andrew Huberman：所以他们有点遵循 OMAD 饮食法，即每天一餐的饮食法。
Satchin Panda: Yeah, they're almost like in a one meal a day, three to four hours, food is gone.
Satchin Panda：是的，他们几乎每天只吃一顿饭，三到四个小时，食物就吃光了。
Or you can say they're on four hours eating or feeding and 20 hours fasting.
或者您可以说他们正在进食或喂食 4 小时，并禁食 20 小时。
So then the question became, well, the benefit of caloric restriction, as we know, is it due to reduced calories or time-restricted feeding or timing?
那么问题就变成了，正如我们所知，热量限制的好处是由于热量减少还是限时喂养或时间安排？
There is a timing component to it, that they are eating all of that within three to four hours, and then there is a long fasting.
其中有一个时间因素，他们在三到四个小时内吃完所有这些，然后是长时间的禁食。
And this is a difficult question to answer, because now you have to ask these poor grad students or technicians to come and split that food into eight or 10 or 15 different small portions, and then give them to mice every two hours.
这是一个很难回答的问题，因为现在你必须请这些可怜的研究生或技术人员来将食物分成八个或十个或十五个不同的小部分，然后每两个小时给老鼠吃。
So, Joe Takahashi, who actually published the first paper in 2017 showing that most caloric restriction studies, I mean, he used the protocol that was used by the caloric restriction field, it actually creates a condition of time restriction.
所以，高桥乔实际上在 2017 年发表了第一篇论文，表明大多数热量限制研究，我的意思是，他使用了热量限制领域使用的协议，它实际上创造了时间限制的条件。
So he showed that, and then he went back and worked with engineers to come up with a smart case where he could actually tell, he could program how much food is given to mice at what time of the day or night, completely programmed.
所以他展示了这一点，然后他回去与工程师合作想出了一个聪明的案例，他可以真正告诉他，他可以编程在白天或晚上的什么时间给老鼠喂多少食物，完全编程。
So then he took this, for example, suppose the ad libitum-fed mice eat five grams of chow in a day, and if you want to reduce calories by 20%, then the CR mouse should get four grams of food.
那么他就拿这个来举例，假设自由喂养的老鼠一天吃五克食物，如果你想减少20%的热量，那么CR老鼠就应该吃四克食物。
And he divided this into nine or 10 meals and then gave them every 90 minutes.
他将这些食物分成 9 到 10 餐，然后每 90 分钟吃一次。
So in this case, they are eating small meals throughout the day and night.
因此，在这种情况下，他们白天和晚上都吃少量的食物。
So there is no fasting.
所以没有禁食。
So you can say that, well, this mouse actually is not getting into fasting because every few hours is getting some food.
所以你可以说，这只老鼠实际上并没有进入禁食状态，因为每隔几个小时就会吃一些食物。
And then he measured how long the mouse is going to live.
然后他测量了老鼠的寿命。
And he used, this is a very standard protocol.
而他用的，这是一个非常标准的协议。
People count how many mice have died on which day and then examine them to see whether they died because there was an accident or actually there was a natural cause.
人们计算当天有多少只老鼠死亡，然后检查它们是因为意外死亡还是实际上是自然原因。
And then they calculate at the end, what is the half life.
然后他们最后计算出半衰期是多少。
So 50% survival, because that's on an average, that's a good indicator, because if there is an outlier that will live for a long time, then that can skew the data.
50% 的存活率，因为这是平均值，这是一个很好的指标，因为如果有一个异常值会存活很长时间，那么这可能会扭曲数据。
So what was interesting was the ad libitum-fed mice.
所以有趣的是随意喂养的小鼠。
Of course, they lived a certain number of days.
当然，他们活了一定的天数。
And then these calorie-restricted mice that never got into super fasting, but kind of eating, snacking throughout day and night, that also lived 10% extra, 10% longer.
然后，这些限制卡路里摄入的老鼠，从来没有进入超级禁食状态，而是日夜不停地吃东西、吃零食，它们的寿命也延长了 10%，延长了 10%。
So that means caloric restriction extended lifespan by 10%.
这意味着热量限制可以将寿命延长 10%。
Andrew Huberman: I wonder about this, because recently there were a bunch of news headlines about intermittent fasting, and frankly, I was frustrated.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我对此感到好奇，因为最近有很多关于间歇性禁食的新闻头条，坦白说，我很沮丧。
If you looked at one major news outlet, they would say time-restricted feeding affords no additional benefit beyond caloric restriction — for weight loss.
如果你看一下一家主要新闻媒体，他们会说，除了热量限制之外，限时喂养并没有带来额外的好处——减肥。
Then another popular press venue, let's call it that, same study, described as time-restricted feeding — doesn't work.
然后，另一个受欢迎的新闻场所，让我们称之为，同一项研究，被描述为限时喂养 - 不起作用。
Satchin Panda: Yeah, right.
Satchin 熊猫：是的，没错。
Andrew Huberman: And then another one, maybe someplace even more extreme, time-restricted feeding, only beneficial because of caloric restriction or something like that.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：然后是另一种，也许在某个地方甚至更极端，有时间限制的喂养，只是因为热量限制或类似的原因而有益。
So what you've essentially got are three different interpretations of the same data, all of which are, well, two of which are true, one of which is false, in my opinion.
因此，您本质上得到的是对同一数据的三种不同解释，在我看来，所有这些解释都是正确的，其中一种是错误的。
But what I think people take away from that is, oh, time-restricted feeding isn't valuable, which is not the case.
但我认为人们从中得到的结论是，哦，限时喂养没有价值，事实并非如此。
I think for many people, it's a convenient way to eat because at least for people like me, it's simpler to designate between portions of my day when I'm eating and portions of my day when I'm not eating, as opposed to portion control.
我认为对于很多人来说，这是一种方便的饮食方式，因为至少对于像我这样的人来说，指定一天中进食的时间和不进食的时间比控制份量更简单。
For other people, portion control can work, but all of that is related to either maintenance or loss of weight.
对于其他人来说，控制份量是有效的，但所有这些都与维持或减轻体重有关。
None of it deals with the potential health benefits independent of weight loss.
它们都没有涉及与减肥无关的潜在健康益处。
And so I think that if we can segment those out, obviously in humans, it's hard to know if a given treatment or experiment is extending life, because you don't really know how long people would live anyway, whereas with mice, you have some sense of when the mortality was likely to occur.
所以我认为，如果我们能够将这些因素区分开来，显然在人类中，就很难知道特定的治疗或实验是否可以延长寿命，因为你实际上并不知道人们会活多久，而对于老鼠，你可以知道何时可能发生死亡。
So what can we say about time-restricted feeding and longevity in terms of biomarkers or in terms of any other indication that people who start and stop their feeding window at a consistent time, somewhere between eight and 12 hours per 24-hours cycle, are tilting the scales towards living longer as opposed to living shorter?
那么，从生物标志物或任何其他迹象来看，如果人们在固定时间（每 24 小时周期 8 到 12 小时）开始和停止进食窗口，那么，对于限时进食和长寿，我们能说什么呢？
Satchin Panda: This example of this news article that you mentioned is really interesting because that relates to Joe Takahashi's study.
Satchin Panda：您提到的这篇新闻文章的例子非常有趣，因为这与高桥乔的研究有关。
Because I described that if you split calories and eat throughout the day, throughout day and night, then the mice lived 10% extra.
因为我描述过，如果你全天、白天和晚上分配卡路里并进食，那么老鼠的寿命会延长 10%。
But if you now give mice the same calorie restricted diet and fit them during daytime, whether within 12 hours or 2 hours, then the mice live 10% extra beyond that.
但如果你现在给老鼠提供同样的热量限制饮食，并在白天进行，无论是 12 小时还是 2 小时内，那么老鼠的寿命会比这个多 10%。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman: So 20%.
安德鲁·休伯曼：所以 20%。
Satchin Panda: Twenty percent.
Satchin 熊猫：百分之二十。
Andrew Huberman: Okay, so let me make sure I understand.
Andrew Huberman：好的，让我确保我理解。
So that I make sure I understand, if you take a certain number of calories and you distribute them throughout the 24-hours cycle, it's caloric restriction.
所以我确保我理解，如果您摄入一定数量的卡路里并在 24 小时周期内分配它们，这就是热量限制。
The mice will live 10% longer if you, however, restrict that to the active cycle — so for humans, the daytime — then they live 20% longer.
然而，如果将其限制在活动周期（对于人类来说，白天），那么老鼠的寿命会延长 10%，那么它们的寿命会延长 20%。
Satchin Panda: Twenty percent longer.
Satchin Panda：长了百分之二十。
Andrew Huberman: So it's not just total caloric intake, meaning it's not just important to be submaintenance in calories for sake of longevity.
安德鲁·休伯曼：所以这不仅仅是总热量摄入，这意味着为了长寿而维持热量摄入并不重要。
It also is important as to when in the 24-hours cycle you eat those calories.
在 24 小时周期中何时摄入这些卡路里也很重要。
Do I have that right?
我有这个权利吗？
Satchin Panda: So now, still the story is not over because these mice were fed during daytime when they're not supposed to eat.
Satchin Panda：所以现在，故事还没有结束，因为这些老鼠是在白天不应该吃东西的时候喂食的。
Andrew Huberman: That's right.
安德鲁·休伯曼：没错。
So for us, it would be the equivalent of being on the night shift and only eating at night.
所以对我们来说，就相当于上夜班，只在晚上吃饭。
But a subcaloric, submaintenance calorie diet, I guess, is the right way to say it.
但我想，低热量、低热量饮食才是正确的说法。
Satchin Panda: But when he fed mice during nighttime, when they're supposed to eat and they're getting the same number of calories within 12 hours or two hours, then the mice live 35% longer than the control.
Satchin Panda：但是当他在夜间喂老鼠时，当它们应该吃东西并且它们在 12 小时或两个小时内获得相同数量的卡路里时，那么老鼠的寿命比对照组长 35%。
Andrew Huberman: Thirty-five percent longer.
Andrew Huberman：延长了百分之三十五。
So scale to human lifespan, which we don't know, but 35% longer would mean that...
因此，按人类寿命计算，我们不知道，但延长 35% 意味着……
And again, no one knows but humans.
再说一遍，除了人类，没有人知道。
Now, what is the average mortality in the United States?
现在，美国的平均死亡率是多少？
Somewhere around 80?
80左右的某个地方？
Satchin Panda: Yeah, so it's around 80.
Satchin Panda：是的，所以大约是 80。
It used to be 80.
以前是80。
Now it's reduced a little bit because of COVID, but let's take 80.
现在由于新冠肺炎疫情，这个数字减少了一点，但我们以 80 为例。
Andrew Huberman: Okay, so people are then, now, living somewhere between 25 and 35 years longer.
Andrew Huberman：好的，所以人们在过去和现在的寿命都延长了 25 到 35 年。
I'm putting some error bars on.
我正在添加一些误差线。
Satchin Panda: Yeah, amazing.
Satchin Panda：是啊，太棒了。
So that was really profound.
所以这真的很深刻。
But now you pointed out biomarkers and other stuff.
但现在你指出了生物标志物和其他东西。
So now if you look at any given time within that experiment, and actually Joe went back and had a separate cohort of mice, very similar.
所以现在如果你看看那个实验中的任何给定时间，实际上乔回去了并有一组单独的老鼠，非常相似。
And so that he could take tissue samples, and of course, in this case, you have to sacrifice the mouse.
这样他就可以采集组织样本，当然，在这种情况下，你必须牺牲老鼠。
And he did a lot of molecular analysis with known markers, for example, hemoglobin, hemoglobin, A1C, equivalent, or glucose control, cholesterol, all this stuff, he could not find anything that predicted the benefit of caloric restriction.
他用已知的标记物做了很多分子分析，例如血红蛋白、血红蛋白、A1C、当量或葡萄糖控制、胆固醇，所有这些东西，他找不到任何可以预测热量限制的好处的东西。
So that means in this experiment, whatever we know so far, the predictor of longevity, none of them could predict whether this CR-only mouse, which ate throughout day and night, that mouse is going to live less than the night-fed mouse that was going to live 25% extra.
因此，这意味着在这个实验中，无论我们迄今为止所知道的长寿预测因子，都无法预测这只白天和晚上都吃东西的纯 CR 小鼠的寿命是否会比夜间喂食的小鼠少活 25%。
Andrew Huberman: Does that mean that there are biomarkers related to longevity that we just haven't discovered yet?
Andrew Huberman：这是否意味着我们还没有发现与长寿相关的生物标志物？
Satchin Panda: Yeah, so that's it exactly.
Satchin Panda：是的，就是这样。
So that means whatever we know so far about biomarkers, those he could not use to predict, maybe there was a lot of noise, maybe he had to use more mice to get that, because biomarkers are not going to predict in every instance that there is some error.
因此，这意味着无论我们迄今为止对生物标记物的了解如何，那些他无法用来预测的生物标记物，也许存在很多噪音，也许他必须使用更多的小鼠才能获得这一结果，因为生物标记物不会在每种情况下都预测存在一些错误。
What is also very interesting is if you look at the body weight and body composition of all these mice, there is no difference in body weight and body composition.
同样非常有趣的是，如果你观察所有这些小鼠的体重和身体成分，就会发现体重和身体成分没有差异。
Andrew Huberman: Across all these different groups.
Andrew Huberman：跨越所有这些不同的群体。
Satchin Panda: Across all these groups.
Satchin Panda：跨越所有这些群体。
Andrew Huberman: So it doesn't matter when they ate, provided they were sub...
安德鲁·休伯曼：所以，只要他们不吃东西，他们什么时候吃并不重要……
maintenance calorie intake.
维持热量摄入。
So less, fewer calories than is required to maintain their weight, didn't matter what pattern of eating they were, the same weight.
因此，无论他们的饮食方式如何，在体重相同的情况下，摄入的热量都比维持体重所需的热量要少得多。
So that in many ways seems to mimic the human studies where they say, look, it doesn't really matter whether or not you use caloric restriction, or you start your feeding window in the morning, or start your feeding window in the evening, or you portion control for sake of weight loss, because we're taking a snapshot of that.
因此，这在很多方面似乎模仿了人类研究，他们说，看，你是否使用热量限制，或者你在早上开始你的进食窗口，或者你在晚上开始你的进食窗口，或者你为了减肥而控制部分，并不重要，因为我们正在拍摄这些快照。
Satchin Panda: And then another thing with the human study that we are referring to here, in that human study, people were actually already eating within a 10-hour window habitually when they selected these people to have them enroll in the study.
Satchin Panda：我们在这里提到的人类研究的另一件事是，在人类研究中，当他们选择这些人参加研究时，人们实际上已经习惯性地在 10 小时内进食。
So they were already eating for 10 hours and fasting for 14 hours.
所以他们已经进食了 10 个小时并禁食了 14 个小时。
All participants had to reduce their calorie intake and they reduced by almost 25%.
所有参与者都必须减少卡路里摄入量，结果减少了近 25%。
The CR group continued with a 10-hour eating window, and the CR-plus, time-restricted group had to eat the same number of calories within eight hours.
CR 组继续有 10 小时的饮食窗口，而 CR+、时间限制组必须在 8 小时内摄入相同数量的卡路里。
Andrew Huberman: So it's just a two-hour difference.
Andrew Huberman：所以只有两个小时的差别。
Satchin Panda: It's just a two-hours difference.
Satchin Panda：只有两个小时的时差。
Andrew Huberman: Okay.
安德鲁·休伯曼：好的。
So that people, I just want to make sure people can understand, so, in this human study, which is the one that I felt, that the popular press venues, all except one venue, got either semi wrong or badly wrong in terms of their conclusion.
因此，我只是想确保人们能够理解，因此，在这项人类研究中，这就是我所感受到的，除了一个场所之外，所有受欢迎的媒体场所在结论方面要么半错误，要么严重错误。
That was my interpretation anyway, was that either people came into the study eating basically in a 10-hour feeding window, which goes back to my first question, which is that most people are not eating in the middle of the night, or if they're on shift work and they are, then they're sleeping during the day anyway.
无论如何，这就是我的解释，要么人们进入研究时基本上在 10 小时的进食窗口内进食，这又回到了我的第一个问题，即大多数人不会在半夜进食，或者如果他们轮班工作，那么他们无论如何都会在白天睡觉。
So they're eating in a 10-to-12-hour feeding window anyway.
所以无论如何，它们的进食时间为 10 到 12 小时。
So you're saying they either did caloric restriction, portion control within a 10-hour window, or another group within the study ate submaintenance calories.
所以你是说他们要么限制热量，在 10 小时内控制摄入量，要么研究中的另一组摄入了维持不足的热量。
So caloric restriction, CR, as we're calling it, the acronym CR, but restricted that to an eight-hour feeding window, and they didn't see any difference in terms of weight loss.
因此，热量限制，CR，正如我们所说的，缩写词 CR，但将其限制为八小时的进食窗口，并且他们在减肥方面没有看到任何差异。
Yeah, but it's not all that surprising, right?
是的，但这并不令人惊讶，对吧？
I mean, if it's just a two-hour difference.
我的意思是，如果只是两个小时的差异。
Satchin Panda: Yeah, exactly.
Satchin Panda：是的，完全正确。
So we have done that experiment in mice and we don't see difference in not only weight loss, many other markers.
所以我们在老鼠身上做了这个实验，我们不仅没有看到体重减轻的差异，而且在许多其他标志物上也没有看到差异。
And I was telling you about this Joe Takahashi's paper where I told you that he allowed these mice to eat within a two-hours or 12-hours subcaloric diet.
我正在向您介绍 Joe Takahashi 的论文，我告诉您他允许这些小鼠在 2 小时或 12 小时的低热量饮食中进食。
Andrew Huberman: Two or 12.
安德鲁·休伯曼：两个或 12 个。
Two or 12, yeah, that's dramatic.
两个或十二个，是的，这太戏剧性了。
Satchin Panda: But still, he did not see change in longevity even within those two.
Satchin Panda：但是，即使在这两个人中，他仍然没有看到寿命的变化。
So that means when you do caloric restriction and then, at least for a mouse, and you are within 12-hours window, that is giving the mice the best benefit, the optimum benefit, and two, three or five or 12 for a mouse doesn't matter, at least for longevity.
因此，这意味着当你进行热量限制时，至少对于一只老鼠来说，并且在 12 小时的窗口内，这会给老鼠带来最大的好处，最佳的好处，而对于老鼠来说，2、3、5 或 12 小时并不重要，至少对于长寿来说是这样。
Andrew Huberman: Can we conclude for humans that whether or not a feeding window is four hours, six hours, eight hours or 12 doesn't matter, provided the calories are similar or same?
Andrew Huberman：我们能否对人类得出这样的结论：只要卡路里相似或相同，进食窗口是 4 小时、6 小时、8 小时还是 12 小时并不重要？
Satchin Panda: Well, I won't go to that extent because we don't know many of these, particularly we don't know how this sort of eating window will affect both sexes, because we always think many of these mouse experiments, even that I told you about, are done only in male mice.
Satchin Panda：嗯，我不会讲到这个程度，因为我们不知道其中很多，特别是我们不知道这种进食窗口将如何影响两性，因为我们总是认为许多这样的小鼠实验，即使是我告诉过你的，也只是在雄性小鼠中进行的。
Andrew Huberman: But that should be changing, right?
Andrew Huberman：但这应该会改变，对吧？
Because the NIH, I know this because I'm in the study section, which is just a bunch of people who review grants, is that every grant now has to include sex as a biological variable.
因为美国国立卫生研究院，我知道这一点，因为我在研究部门，这只是一群审查拨款的人，现在每笔拨款都必须将性别作为一个生物变量。
It's hard to get away with.
很难逃脱。
Well, rather, I should say it the way it should be stated, which is that people are required and should want to look at these phenomena in male and female mice.
嗯，相反，我应该按应有的方式说，那就是人们需要并且应该想要在雄性和雌性小鼠中观察这些现象。
Yes, especially if there are differences.
是的，尤其是在存在差异的情况下。
Satchin Panda: So in this case, there was also another paper in time-restricted feeding that also came out, a big paper showing that the thermogenesis was accounting for loss in fat mass in time-restricted-fed mice.
Satchin Panda：所以在这种情况下，还有另一篇关于限时喂养的论文也发表了，一篇大论文表明生热作用是限时喂养小鼠脂肪量损失的原因。
That was also done only in male mice.
这也是仅在雄性小鼠中进行的。
So we are paying attention to it.
所以我们正在关注它。
So we are now doing all of our studies in males and females, and we do see big differences between males and females.
因此，我们现在正在对男性和女性进行所有研究，我们确实看到男性和女性之间存在巨大差异。
Coming back to humans, what typically happens is when you're trying to do four hours or six hours of time-restricted eating, people will inadvertently reduce their calorie intake just because of gut volume.
回到人类身上，通常发生的情况是，当你尝试进行四小时或六小时的限时饮食时，人们会因为肠道容量而无意中减少卡路里摄入量。
Andrew Huberman: I tried one meal per day, and I felt like I was eating so much at that one sitting that it led to a lot of gastric distress.
安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman）：我尝试每天吃一顿饭，我觉得我在那一顿饭里吃了太多东西，导致了很多胃部不适。
And I get tired after the meal.
而且饭后我会感到疲倦。
And part of the reason I like to do time-restricted feeding is I have more energy.
我喜欢限时喂食的部分原因是我有更多的精力。
And certainly in the fasted state, I feel more energized, especially if I'm ingesting a little caffeine or something like that.
当然，在禁食状态下，我感觉更有活力，尤其是当我摄入一点咖啡因或类似的东西时。
Satchin Panda: So people will reduce energy intake, and then some people who are more active, they can actually, unconsciously, they may be spending more energy in their physical activity and basal metabolic rate, all of this combined, than how much they're eating.
Satchin Panda：所以人们会减少能量摄入，然后一些更活跃的人实际上可以在不知不觉中，他们在体力活动和基础代谢率上花费的能量，所有这些加起来，比他们吃的东西多。
And that can have a very adverse effect in the long term, because we know that this energy deficit, and in fact, there is a scientific term for that, it's called REDS, relative energy deficit in sports.
从长远来看，这可能会产生非常不利的影响，因为我们知道这种能量不足，事实上，有一个科学术语，它被称为“REDS”，即运动中的相对能量不足。
Andrew Huberman: Relative energy deficit in sports.
Andrew Huberman：运动中的相对能量不足。
Okay.
好的。
Satchin Panda: Yeah, it's because nearly 40% of athletes, not the NFL guys, but there are a lot of people who do track and field, and nearly 40% of athletes actually experience this REDS without knowing.
Satchin Panda：是的，这是因为近 40% 的运动员，不是 NFL 的人，而是有很多田径运动员，近 40% 的运动员在不知情的情况下实际上经历过这种 REDS。
Andrew Huberman: Can male and female athletes both experience REDS?
Andrew Huberman：男性和女性运动员都会经历 REDS 吗？
So it's REDS, R-E-D-S, relative energy deficit in sports.
所以这就是 REDS、R-E-D-S，即运动中的相对能量不足。
Interesting.
有趣的。
This is the first I've heard of this acronym.
这是我第一次听说这个缩写词。
We have a new acronym, folks.
伙计们，我们有一个新的缩写词。
This is good to add to a list of other acronyms so males and females can experience it.
最好将其添加到其他缩写词列表中，以便男性和女性都可以体验它。
So in females, I've heard that REDS can lead to amenorrhea.
所以在女性中，我听说 REDS 会导致闭经。
So loss of the menstrual cycle.
从而丧失月经周期。
Satchin Panda: Yeah.
萨钦熊猫：是的。
So that's so common, that's so prevalent that in fact many women, many female athletes, take it for granted that, yes, if they are more active, then they will lose their menstrual cycle, which may be common, but it's not normal or optimum for health.
所以这种情况是如此普遍，以至于事实上许多女性，许多女运动员，理所当然地认为，是的，如果她们更加活跃，那么她们就会失去月经周期，这可能很常见，但它不正常或不利于健康。
Andrew Huberman: Even if they don't want to get pregnant.
安德鲁·休伯曼：即使他们不想怀孕。
Yeah, we had an expert on female hormones come on and say the very same thing, that regular cycling--
是的，我们有一位女性荷尔蒙专家也说了同样的话，那就是定期骑自行车——
--is very important--
——非常重要——
--of ovulatory menstrual cycle, is important to try and maintain.
——排卵月经周期，尝试和维持很重要。
Satchin Panda: So that's one.
Satchin Panda：就是这样。
But then what is really concerning is it does affect bone health.
但真正令人担忧的是它确实会影响骨骼健康。
And in this state, people actually, over a long period of time, they lose bone mass, and their bone also becomes more prone to injury, microfracture and fractures.
而在这种状态下，人实际上，经过很长一段时间，他们的骨质流失了，他们的骨头也变得更容易受伤、微骨折和骨折。
So again, it's a risk, meaning if some people are trying to eat within a very short time and they're physically active, that happens.
再说一遍，这是一种风险，这意味着如果有些人试图在很短的时间内进食并且身体活跃，就会发生这种情况。
And it also has an impact on menstruation.
而且对月经也有影响。
Why, the reason why these women are losing their menstrual cycle is the HPG axis is disrupted.
为什么，这些女性失去月经周期的原因是 HPG 轴被破坏了。
Hypothalamus-pituitary-gonadal axis.
下丘脑-垂体-性腺轴。
And it starts, it may start even upstream at the hypothalamus or pituitary.
它甚至可能从下丘脑或垂体的上游开始。
So that means the HPA axis, hypothalamus, pituitary and adrenal axis may also get disrupted.
这意味着 HPA 轴、下丘脑、垂体和肾上腺轴也可能受到干扰。
One of the symptoms of REDS is also depression, anxiety, bipolar-like symptoms.
REDS的症状之一也是抑郁、焦虑、躁郁症样症状。
And we know that many athletes experience that.
我们知道许多运动员都经历过这种情况。
We think that, well, this may be just peer pressure, that of always trying to compete.
我们认为，这可能只是同侪压力，即总是试图竞争的压力。
And we know that, unfortunately, there are a few athletes who just can't cope with it and there are many who've attempted suicide or suicide.
不幸的是，我们知道，有一些运动员无法应对，还有许多人试图自杀或自杀。
So this is a serious issue.
所以这是一个严重的问题。
And there's also another new topic in the lab to come up with a mouse model of REDS and then study it.
实验室还有另一个新课题，就是建立一个 REDS 小鼠模型，然后对其进行研究。
But this is one risk why we should not reduce our eating interval to one meal or a very short time, because it can have adverse side effects that we don't know now.
但这是我们不应该将进食间隔减少到一顿或很短时间的一个风险，因为它可能会产生我们现在还不知道的不良副作用。
Maybe in the future we'll figure out when we systematically study them.
也许将来我们系统地研究它们就会明白了。
There are studies that are published showing four-hours and six-hours time-restricted eating has benefits on weight loss, but those are on healthy individuals, and they were in the studies.
有发表的研究表明，四小时和六小时限时饮食对减肥有好处，但这些都是针对健康个体的，而且也在研究中。
So the study team we're already monitoring, they made sure that there was no sudden weight loss or weight loss below some safety level.
因此，我们已经在监测的研究小组，他们确保没有突然的体重减轻或体重减轻低于某个安全水平。
So those are very different from regular people who may be even normal weight or even within the healthy range.
所以这些人与普通人有很大不同，他们的体重可能是正常的，甚至是在健康范围内的。
If they do, then they can potentially, so that's why we think eight to 10 hours may be the ideal spot to begin with.
如果他们这样做了，那么他们就有可能，所以这就是为什么我们认为 8 到 10 小时可能是理想的开始时间。
And once you are physically active and you are also spending a lot of energy in physical activity or sports, you can even go up to 12 hours, because in mice we have done that experiment up to 12 hours, they do get a lot of benefits.
而且一旦你身体活跃了，而且你也在体力活动或运动中花费了大量的能量，你甚至可以长达12小时，因为我们在老鼠身上做了长达12小时的实验，它们确实得到了很多好处。
Not all, but--
不是全部，但是——
Andrew Huberman: So this is 12 hours of...?
Andrew Huberman：所以这是 12 个小时的……？
Satchin Panda: Twelve hours of feeding, 12 hours of fasting.
Satchin Panda：12小时喂食，12小时禁食。
In humans, again, nobody has systematically done 12 hours.
在人类中，同样没有人系统地完成 12 个小时。
But there was one study in Europe from Tinhai Collette's lab and Tinhai and I, we collaborate.
但是 Tinhai Collette 的实验室在欧洲进行了一项研究，Tinhai 和我合作进行了这项研究。
So they used our My Circadian Clock app.
所以他们使用了我们的“我的昼夜节律时钟”应用程序。
This is a research app we developed, mostly used in time-restricted eating studies.
这是我们开发的一款研究应用程序，主要用于限时饮食研究。
And he had nearly, I think he started with 200 Swiss participants.
我想他一开始就有 200 名瑞士参与者。
But then at the end, he selected and took a very small number of people who are very meticulous about recording all their food and divided them into usual feeding, whatever they wanted to eat whenever they wanted to eat.
但最后，他挑选了极少数人，非常细致地记录了他们所有的食物，并分成平时的喂养，想吃什么就吃什么。
And they were given the advice of Swiss nutrition, advice that's given to improve health and reduce blood glucose, almost like the diabetes prevention program in the U.S.
他们得到了瑞士营养的建议，这些建议旨在改善健康和降低血糖，几乎就像美国的糖尿病预防计划一样。
And then the other group was given advice to eat within 12 hours.
然后另一组被建议在 12 小时内进食。
This was very early on in time-restricted eating, and we thought that the mice were getting some benefit.
这是限时饮食的早期阶段，我们认为小鼠得到了一些好处。
Let's try to see whether 12 hours has any benefit.
让我们试试看 12 小时是否有任何好处。
The bottom line is, at the end of three months and six months, what he reported is both groups lost the same amount of body weight.
最重要的是，在三个月和六个月结束时，他报告说两组人失去了相同的体重。
And then there was not too much significant difference between groups, but both groups actually improved their health.
然后两组之间并没有太大的显着差异，但两组实际上都改善了他们的健康状况。
So the bottom line is the Swiss nutritional advice that he was giving, which is the standard of care there, it achieved the same amount of weight loss as just giving people this advice that they eat within 12 hours.
因此，底线是他给出的瑞士营养建议，这是那里的护理标准，它所达到的减肥效果与仅向人们提供在 12 小时内进食的建议相同。
So one way to look at the result is like this, and then he went to more extent and actually looked at every single meal these people consumed.
所以看待结果的一种方法是这样的，然后他更进一步，实际上观察了这些人吃的每一顿饭。
So there are close to, I think, close to 60 or 70,000 meal records and pictures he went through and then classified them to say whether these are good-quality food.
因此，我认为，他浏览了近 60 或 70,000 条用餐记录和图片，然后对它们进行分类，以确定这些是否是优质食物。
So they call it the Nova Classification — 1,2,3,4, one is the food that you can almost eat raw; fruits, vegetables, yogurt and dairy products that you can almost eat without any preparation.
所以他们称之为Nova分类——1、2、3、4，一种是几乎可以生吃的食物；一种是几乎可以生吃的食物；一种是几乎可以生吃的食物。水果、蔬菜、酸奶和乳制品，您几乎无需任何准备即可食用。
And then second, Nova Two is kind of home-cooked food that most people will prepare in a few minutes, and then Three, and Four is the food that you can never prepare at home.
其次，Nova Two 是大多数人几分钟内就能准备好的家常食物，然后三、四是你在家里永远无法准备的食物。
So, for example, biscuits or cookies that we usually purchase and a few other things.
例如，我们通常购买的饼干或饼干以及其他一些东西。
And usually the NOVA P4 are unhealthy, ultraprocessed foods, so, which we should not be eating.
通常 NOVA P4 是不健康的超加工食品，所以我们不应该吃。
So the advice is to reduce NOVA P4.
所以建议是减少NOVA P4。
And what he found was people who got all this advice to improve their nutrition quality, they actually improved their nutrition quality.
他发现，人们接受了所有这些建议来提高营养质量，他们实际上提高了营养质量。
They reduced their Nova 4 food, and people who were in time-restricted eating, they ate within 12 hours.
他们减少了 Nova 4 的食物，而限时进食的人则在 12 小时内吃完。
They did not change their nutrition quality.
他们没有改变营养质量。
But what is interesting is they both got the same modest weight loss.
但有趣的是，他们的体重减轻幅度相同。
So that begs the question that maybe Tinhai will do this experiment again, to combine nutrition advice with time restriction and maybe reduce the time to 10 hours, and that might help.
那么这就引出了一个问题，也许Tinhai会再次做这个实验，将营养建议与时间限制结合起来，也许将时间减少到10个小时，这可能会有所帮助。
So, 12 hours is something that I say anyone from a 5-year-old to 100-year-old can do.
所以我说12小时是从5岁到100岁的任何人都可以做到的。
And if you are trying to maintain weight, that might be a good way.
如果您想保持体重，这可能是一个好方法。
And combine that with exercise, it'll be great.
并将其与锻炼结合起来，效果会很棒。
Andrew Huberman: And people can more easily avoid REDS in that way.
Andrew Huberman：人们可以通过这种方式更轻松地避免 REDS。
Women, and for nonathletes or recreational exercises, it sounds like women, if they distribute their calories across 12 hours, are less likely to lose their menstrual cycle.
对于女性来说，对于非运动员或休闲运动来说，听起来如果女性在 12 小时内分配卡路里，那么她们失去月经周期的可能性就较小。
Satchin Panda: Yeah.
萨钦熊猫：是的。
So again, this is something that we have to look at carefully.
再说一遍，这是我们必须仔细考虑的事情。
They have to be, because we do have the My Circadian Clock app that many people download and self-monitor and they share the data for researchers.
他们必须如此，因为我们确实有“我的昼夜节律时钟”应用程序，许多人下载并自我监控，并且他们为研究人员共享数据。
Andrew Huberman: We will provide a link to that.
Andrew Huberman：我们将提供一个链接。
By the way, it's a great tool.
顺便说一句，它是一个很棒的工具。
Satchin Panda: But once in a while we do get this input from some women saying, oh, I started doing your time-restricted eating and I am seeing all these problems.
Satchin Panda：但有时我们确实会从一些女性那里得到这样的意见，他们说，哦，我开始做你的限时饮食，我看到了所有这些问题。
And then I ask them, okay, so what else are you doing?
然后我问他们，好吧，那么你们还在做什么？
They typically improve their nutrition quality.
他们通常会提高营养质量。
So they're eating only salad and a few, and they're trying to increase their fiber intake.
所以他们只吃沙拉和一些，并试图增加纤维摄入量。
And it's really hard to eat so much uncooked food because cooking helps to absorb more nutrients and then at the same time they're running 5 miles every day.
而且吃这么多生的食物真的很难，因为烹饪有助于吸收更多的营养，同时他们每天还要跑5英里。
And of course all of this combined can lead to REDS-like symptoms.
当然，所有这些结合起来可能会导致类似 REDS 的症状。
So that's why 12, I think, is a good point if you're combining physical exercise and better nutrition quality.
因此，我认为，如果您将体育锻炼和更好的营养质量结合起来，12 点是一个很好的点。
Because in mice also, we have seen that if mice are eating healthy food and they're eating within 10 to 12 hours, then they also live longer than mice that are eating healthy food but distributing those calories over a long period of time.
因为在老鼠身上，我们也发现，如果老鼠吃健康食物，并且在 10 到 12 小时内吃东西，那么它们也会比吃健康食物但长时间分配热量的老鼠活得更长。
And this is Rafael de Cabo's finding from NIH.
这是美国国立卫生研究院 (NIH) 的拉斐尔·德卡波 (Rafael de Cabo) 的发现。
He has systematically done this study with two different types of diet and in mice, and he finds the same thing, that even mice that are eating within 12 hours, they do live longer than mice that eat randomly, even healthy food.
他用两种不同类型的饮食和老鼠进行了系统性的研究，他发现了同样的事情，即使是在 12 小时内进食的老鼠，它们的寿命也确实比随机进食的老鼠要长，即使是健康食物。
Andrew Huberman: I recall a recent study, I think it was either published in Cell Reports or Cell Reports Medicine, forgive me for not remembering which, but both, of course, Cell Press journals, excellent journals, which explored time-restricted feeding in the context of low-carbohydrate or non-low-carbohydrate diet.
Andrew Huberman：我记得最近的一项研究，我想它要么发表在 Cell Reports 上，要么发表在 Cell Reports Medicine 上，请原谅我不记得是哪一篇了，当然，这两种期刊都是 Cell Press 期刊，优秀的期刊，它们探索了低碳水化合物或非低碳水化合物饮食背景下的限时喂养。
So it was low carbohydrate versus low carbohydrate and time restricted.
所以这是低碳水化合物与低碳水化合物和时间限制的比较。
So these are all caloric matched between groups and then non-low-carbohydrate diets.
因此，这些都是组间热量匹配的，然后是非低碳水化合物饮食。
So more standard.
所以更加标准。
I think it was somewhere in the neighborhood of 60% of calories from complex carbohydrates.
我认为大约 60% 的卡路里来自复杂碳水化合物。
And as I recall, the greatest weight loss, remember, same calories across groups, folks, was achieved with low carbohydrate plus caloric restriction.
我记得，记住，不同群体、不同人群中相同卡路里的最大减肥效果是通过低碳水化合物加上热量限制来实现的。
And I wondered why all the popular news venues didn't cover that study.
我想知道为什么所有热门新闻媒体都不报道这项研究。
But that's why I'm bringing it up now.
但这就是我现在提出这个问题的原因。
I thought, this is really interesting, and I'm somebody who's cycled a low-carbohydrate diet before I find it hard to sleep after about three or four days of being on a low-starch diet, just personally.
我想，这真的很有趣，就我个人而言，我是一个循环使用低碳水化合物饮食的人，在经历了大约三四天的低淀粉饮食后，我发现很难入睡。
So I like to eat some starches, especially if exercising intensely or working intensely.
所以我喜欢吃一些淀粉类食物，尤其是在剧烈运动或剧烈工作时。
That's just a little editorial there.
这只是一点社论。
But look, I know many people who do just feel better on a low-carbohydrate diet.
但是你看，我知道很多人确实在低碳水化合物饮食中感觉更好。
But what do you think of those data?
但您如何看待这些数据？
Because it speaks to the idea that, okay, it's not just the total number of calories.
因为它说明了这样一个想法：好吧，这不仅仅是卡路里总数。
It's not just the quality of those calories, it's the timing of those calories.
这不仅与这些卡路里的质量有关，还与这些卡路里的摄入时间有关。
And maybe carbohydrate restriction in conjunction with time-restricted feeding might be the best path for people who are looking to lose weight.
对于想要减肥的人来说，限制碳水化合物和限时喂养可能是最好的途径。
Satchin Panda: No, I totally agree that when it comes to nutrition, quality, quantity and timing, all these three matter.
Satchin Panda：不，我完全同意，当谈到营养、质量、数量和时间时，这三者都很重要。
Nearly 40% of people who maintain healthy body weight, because 60% are overweight or obese, 40% are maintaining healthy body weight.
近40%的人保持健康体重，因为60%超重或肥胖，40%保持健康体重。
And out of those 40%, I would say nearly a majority of them are very aware about how much they're eating and what quality of food they're eating.
在这 40% 的人中，我想说几乎大多数人都非常清楚自己吃了多少以及所吃食物的质量。
Andrew Huberman: So you're really an optimist.
Andrew Huberman：所以你真的是一个乐观主义者。
You're looking at the 40% of the glass that's empty, or should we say not full.
你看到的是 40% 的玻璃杯是空的，或者我们应该说没有满。
That was a pun intended.
这是一个双关语。
But it's a very interesting way of looking at, rather than saying, why are 60% of Americans obese?
但这是一种非常有趣的方式来看待，而不是说，为什么 60% 的美国人肥胖？
Saying, why are 40% not obese?
话说，为什么40%的人不肥胖呢？
That's a very interesting way to look at it.
这是一种非常有趣的看待它的方式。
Satchin Panda: Yeah.
萨钦熊猫：是的。
I mean, subconsciously, we're always making that decision.
我的意思是，我们总是在潜意识里做出这样的决定。
I'm sure that you are not going and eating cheeseburgers every day because you want to improve.
我确信你不会因为想要进步而每天都去吃芝士汉堡。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, exactly.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的，完全正确。
I wouldn't feel good.
我会感觉不好。
Satchin Panda: Yeah.
萨钦熊猫：是的。
Andrew Huberman: I enjoy a cheeseburger now and again, but no, certainly not at this stage or any stage of my life.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：我时不时地喜欢吃芝士汉堡，但不，当然不是在这个阶段或我生命中的任何阶段。
I actually think the pandemic had a lot to do with this.
我实际上认为大流行与此有很大关系。
I think that people started to take a look at what they were doing to support or not support their health generally.
我认为人们开始审视他们正在做什么来支持或不支持他们的健康。
I know people gained a lot of weight during the pandemic.
我知道人们在大流行期间体重增加了很多。
Other people got really into fitness.
其他人真正开始健身。
I've seen some colleagues, you've always been in good shape, actually, it's the first time I've seen you in a while, and you seem to have aged backwards.
我见过一些同事，你的身材一直都很好，其实我好久第一次见到你了，你好像又老了一些。
So you are a poster for your own ideas and hypotheses about time-restricted feeding.
因此，您是您自己关于限时喂养的想法和假设的海报。
But I noticed that during the pandemic, a number of people emerged from the pandemic in better shape, other people in much worse shape.
但我注意到，在大流行期间，一些人在大流行后状况较好，而另一些人的状况则较差。
It seemed like it was like a bimodal distribution there.
看起来就像是双峰分布。
Satchin Panda: Yeah.
萨钦熊猫：是的。
Andrew Huberman: So, yeah, I get the sense that starting and stopping eating at more or less the same time each day, even if caloric restriction is not the main focus, has additional benefits.
安德鲁·休伯曼：所以，是的，我觉得每天或多或少在同一时间开始和停止进食，即使热量限制不是主要焦点，也会带来额外的好处。
Can we talk about some of those benefits as they relate to the other things that impact health?
我们可以谈谈其中一些与影响健康的其他因素相关的好处吗？
So, for instance, if you're starting and stopping eating at more or less the same times each day, are you sleeping better?
举例来说，如果您每天在大致相同的时间开始和停止进食，您的睡眠质量是否会更好？
Are you getting more predictable shifts in alertness and sleepiness?
您的警觉性和睡意是否出现了更可预测的变化？
Like, can you predict when you'll feel good enough to exercise?
比如，你能预测什么时候你会感觉良好，可以锻炼吗？
Maybe we could talk about that, because you, of course, are well known for time-restricted feeding and the science around that, but also other things as well, not the least of which is circadian biology generally.
也许我们可以谈谈这个，因为你当然以限时喂养和相关科学而闻名，但也有其他事情，其中最重要的是一般昼夜节律生物学。
So I always think of the main timekeepers for our system being feeding, light, activity and social connection.
所以我一直认为我们系统的主要计时器是喂养、光照、活动和社交联系。
Did I miss anything?
我错过了什么吗？
And temperature.
和温度。
Satchin Panda: Yeah.
萨钦熊猫：是的。
Andrew Huberman: So how do these combine with one another and using timing that we begin and stop feeding as a kind of anchor point?
Andrew Huberman：那么这些如何相互结合，并利用我们开始和停止进食的时间作为一种锚点呢？
Can we explore that a little bit?
我们可以稍微探讨一下吗？
Satchin Panda: Yeah.
萨钦熊猫：是的。
So we got into this beginning and end, and then you asked whether calories, how many calories will break the fast?
所以我们进入了这个开始和结束，然后你问是否有卡路里，多少卡路里会打破禁食？
One thing that I want the listeners and viewers to bring back to this timing of when we are breaking the fast, because we equate health with weight, body weight.
我希望听众和观众带回我们开斋时的一件事，因为我们将健康与体重等同起来。
And that's when we are talking about nutrition, quality and quantity, because both of them have an impact.
这就是我们谈论营养、质量和数量的时候，因为它们都会产生影响。
So now let's think about mental health.
现在让我们考虑一下心理健康。
Because a lot of people do struggle with mental health.
因为很多人确实与心理健康作斗争。
They have anxiety or depression, and also gut health, because there are a lot of people who also have acid reflux or heartburn.
他们有焦虑或抑郁，也有肠道健康问题，因为很多人也有胃酸反流或胃灼热的症状。
And we know that acid reflux or heartburn can be exacerbated by caffeine intake on an empty stomach.
我们知道空腹时摄入咖啡因会加剧胃酸反流或胃灼热。
Those who have acid reflux or heartburn, they're prone to that.
那些患有胃酸反流或胃灼热的人很容易出现这种情况。
Then having black coffee in the morning before any food can upset their stomach.
然后在早上喝黑咖啡，然后再吃任何食物，以免胃部不适。
So that's why in those cases, it's very clear that caffeine, for them, becomes the trigger, that something, the food is supposed to come and then the stomach is not seeing the food.
所以这就是为什么在这些情况下，很明显咖啡因对他们来说成为了触发器，食物应该来了，然后胃就看不到食物了。
So it's overreacting, producing excess acid.
所以它反应过度，产生过量的酸。
And that comes up to the esophagus, and that's what they're experiencing.
这会到达食道，这就是他们所经历的。
So if people have that kind of condition, then maybe they should consider, when they drink their first coffee, is breaking their overall fast or kind of putting their health at risk for acid reflux.
因此，如果人们有这种情况，那么也许他们应该考虑，当他们喝第一杯咖啡时，是否打破了整体禁食，或者是否使他们的健康面临胃酸反流的风险。
The other thing is people who have anxiety, panic attacks, we know that caffeine can trigger you.
另一件事是那些患有焦虑、惊恐发作的人，我们知道咖啡因会引发这种情况。
Andrew Huberman: Especially on an empty stomach.
Andrew Huberman：尤其是空腹时。
Satchin Panda: Especially on an empty stomach.
Satchin Panda：尤其是空腹时。
So for them, again, caffeine can be a trigger.
因此，对于他们来说，咖啡因可能再次成为触发因素。
So that's why I want to kind of differentiate that there is this mental health, and other aspects of health.
这就是为什么我想区分心理健康和健康的其他方面。
And these are two clear examples where anxiety, panic attack related to brain health, or acid reflux related to our gut health.
这是两个明显的例子，焦虑、惊恐发作与大脑健康有关，或胃酸反流与我们的肠道健康有关。
In those cases, when we consume that caffeine in the morning can affect--
在这些情况下，当我们早上摄入咖啡因时会影响——
Andrew Huberman: --Do you avoid caffeine in the morning?
安德鲁·胡伯曼：——你早上会避免摄入咖啡因吗？
Satchin Panda: Actually, here is the interesting history about caffeine, and this is something I did not know, and I was once invited to this history of nighttime activity.
Satchin Panda：其实，这是关于咖啡因的有趣历史，这是我不知道的事情，我曾经被邀请了解这段夜间活动的历史。
And maybe we can take a little bit of detour and talk about nighttime activity, because that fascinates me as a circadian biologist, because over the last 200,000 years, we assume that humans, Homo Sapiens, evolved 200,000 years ago.
也许我们可以绕道讨论一下夜间活动，因为这让我作为一名昼夜节律生物学家着迷，因为在过去的 20 万年里，我们假设人类（智人）是在 20 万年前进化的。
So, as a species, we have been living on this planet for 200,000 years, and only in the last, you can say, a couple of thousand or 5000 years when we came to control fire, or maybe you can even go back to 100,000 years.
因此，作为一个物种，我们已经在这个星球上生活了 20 万年，直到最后，你可以说是几千年或 5000 年，我们才开始控制火，或者甚至可以追溯到 10 万年。
There is some debate.
有一些争论。
So then the question is, well, when we controlled fire, and we lighted up the fire, and we could light up whenever we wanted, we can add fuel and we can stop the fire when we don't want it.
那么问题是，当我们控制火势时，我们点燃了火，我们可以在任何需要的时候点燃，我们可以添加燃料，我们可以在不需要时停止火。
That's the key ability in humans that differentiates them from all the other species.
这是人类区别于其他物种的关键能力。
No other species, we can always say, yes, there are signs of this intelligent decision making.
没有其他物种，我们总是可以说，是的，有这种明智决策的迹象。
For example, we know many crows can make decisions.
例如，我们知道许多乌鸦可以做出决定。
Many animals, they kind of figure out, strategize how to get food.
他们发现，许多动物都会制定如何获取食物的策略。
But controlled use of fire is something very specific to humans, and when we started controlling fire, fire did not essentially extend the day, because fire created an evening that was very different from what people did during the day and what people used to do.
但控制用火是人类特有的事情，当我们开始控制火时，火本质上并没有延长白天，因为火创造了一个与人们白天所做的事情和过去所做的事情非常不同的夜晚。
During the day, they worked a lot, meaning gathering food was almost everything that we did.
白天，他们工作很多，这意味着收集食物几乎就是我们所做的一切。
And so in the evening, after, we brought food, mostly tubers or maybe lentils to cook, or once in a while, animals, so that we could barbecue.
所以到了晚上，我们带了食物，主要是块茎或扁豆来做饭，或者偶尔带一些动物，这样我们就可以烧烤。
All of these things happened around a fire.
所有这些事情都发生在一场火灾周围。
And the fire was so expensive that it was mostly a communal fire.
而且这场火灾的代价非常高昂，主要是一场公共火灾。
So if you go back to, for example, Masai and all these populations that have no access to electricity and are still living kind of that historical life, fire is a communal event.
因此，如果你回到马赛和所有这些无法用上电力但仍然过着那种历史生活的人们，火灾是一种公共事件。
And they sat around, they cooked food, and then what happened?
他们围坐在一起，做饭，然后发生了什么？
They did not talk about work, they talked about culture, they sang, they danced, they strategized.
他们不谈论工作，他们谈论文化，他们唱歌，他们跳舞，他们制定战略。
That's how politics started, philosophy started, science started.
政治就是这样开始的，哲学是这样开始的，科学也是这样开始的。
All of these things that are very unique to human civilization started around fireside chat.
所有这些人类文明非常独特的事情都是从炉边聊天开始的。
In that way, if we think about it, we are still doing fireside chat.
这样想来，我们还是在炉边聊天。
The only thing is we have the microwave and the television or social media.
唯一的事情是我们有微波炉、电视或社交媒体。
Andrew Huberman: And now we chat with our thumbs, right?
Andrew Huberman：现在我们用拇指聊天，对吧？
Satchin Panda: So we are hooked to that evening activity because that's when we are completely free from the pressure of the work and we want to express ourselves.
Satchin Panda：所以我们对晚上的活动着迷，因为那时我们完全摆脱了工作的压力，我们想要表达自己。
That's our independent time.
那是我们的独立时间。
So that's why most people find it very difficult to do time-restricting and stop eating at 6 o'clock because it's ingrained even in our DNA that we want to eat and socialize in the evening.
这就是为什么大多数人发现很难限制时间并在 6 点停止进食，因为我们想要在晚上吃饭和社交的想法甚至在我们的 DNA 中根深蒂固。
So now let's fast-forward and see what is the role of coffee in this.
现在让我们快进看看咖啡在其中扮演什么角色。
If you look at coffee confabs and particularly the café, where people can come and have a little bit of coffee and socialize, it also started as an evening activity.
如果你看看咖啡会议，尤其是咖啡馆，人们可以来这里喝点咖啡并进行社交活动，它也是从一项夜间活动开始的。
And this is in, now we can go back to Istanbul because that's one place where coffee cafés started in the mid-16th century.
现在我们可以回到伊斯坦布尔了，因为那是 16 世纪中叶咖啡馆兴起的地方。
So we are talking about 1540 to 1570.
所以我们谈论的是 1540 年到 1570 年。
And that's when, I'm sorry, I'm forgetting the name of the historian who actually invited me.
就在那时，我很抱歉，我忘记了真正邀请我的历史学家的名字。
Okay.
好的。
His name is Cemal Kafadar, and I must be butchering the name, but I'll try.
他的名字叫杰马尔·卡法达尔（Cemal Kafadar），我一定是在毁掉这个名字，但我会尝试的。
Andrew Huberman: It's okay, we will provide the spelling, and the wonderful thing about social media is somebody will tell us on YouTube the proper pronunciation.
Andrew Huberman：没关系，我们会提供拼写，社交媒体的美妙之处在于有人会在 YouTube 上告诉我们正确的发音。
So this is a great opportunity.
所以这是一个很好的机会。
If you know the proper pronunciation, please put it in the comments on YouTube.
如果您知道正确的发音，请在 YouTube 上留言。
Satchin Panda: Actually, I'm even checking right now in my EndNote library.
Satchin Panda：实际上，我现在正在检查我的 EndNote 图书馆。
It's not picking up that.
它没有接受那个。
Andrew Huberman: That's right.
安德鲁·休伯曼：没错。
We'll provide a link.
我们将提供一个链接。
Satchin Panda: So what happened was, so coffee was introduced and people came and drank coffee and talked about politics at night, at night, at evening.
Satchin Panda：所以发生的事情是，咖啡被引入了，人们来喝咖啡，在晚上、晚上、晚上谈论政治。
And it actually started with the Sufi branch of Islam because they are the ones who consumed coffee in the evening.
它实际上始于伊斯兰教的苏菲派，因为他们是晚上喝咖啡的人。
And this is the branch of Islam where they actually sing and dance, and all that happened in the evening.
这是伊斯兰教的一个分支，他们实际上在那里唱歌跳舞，所有这些都发生在晚上。
So singing, dancing by the Sufis, and then here in Istanbul, people started congregating and talking about politics.
苏菲派唱歌、跳舞，然后在伊斯坦布尔，人们开始聚集在一起谈论政治。
But then around the same time in Turkey, there was a good sizable number of Muslims who have to do five prayers a day, a number of prayers at set time.
但大约在同一时间，在土耳其，有相当多的穆斯林每天必须做五次祈祷，并且在规定的时间进行多次祈祷。
The first prayer is very early in the morning.
第一次祈祷是在清晨。
And then they figured out that if they wake up and immediately have coffee, then they can stay awake for the first prayer.
然后他们发现，如果他们醒来后立即喝咖啡，那么他们就可以在第一次祈祷时保持清醒。
And in that way, they felt pretty good, they woke up.
就这样，他们感觉很好，他们醒了。
So that's how it started as a morning drink, to stay awake and kind of get on with the day.
这就是它作为早晨饮料的开始，以保持清醒并继续新的一天。
But what happened was, I don't know whether you have ever tried Turkish coffee.
但发生的事情是，我不知道你是否尝试过土耳其咖啡。
It's very thick.
它很厚。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
A few years ago, right before the pandemic, 2019, I traveled to Turkey.
几年前，就在2019年大流行之前，我去了土耳其。
First of all, the food is amazing.
首先，食物很棒。
The coffee is indeed very thick.
咖啡确实很浓。
And I have a pretty high caffeine tolerance from drinking so much coffee and yerba mate over the years, and still do.
由于多年来喝了这么多咖啡和马黛茶，我对咖啡因的耐受性相当高，现在仍然如此。
I really enjoy it.
我真的很喜欢它。
But, yeah, it's very intense.
但是，是的，它非常强烈。
So what you're saying is that coffee intake started as a way to extend into the night.
所以你的意思是，喝咖啡最初是为了延续到夜晚。
The ability to extend into the night at all was because of the ability to harness fire.
能够延续到夜晚的能力完全是因为能够驾驭火。
And then coffee's stimulatory properties were leveraged toward morning, which is essentially like, the way I think about it.
然后咖啡的刺激特性在早上发挥作用，这基本上就像我的想法一样。
We did an episode on caffeine, and someone else, Michael Pollan, not I, described it this way: that you're sort of taking a loan out on your energy bank account with coffee.
我们制作了一集关于咖啡因的节目，而其他人，迈克尔·波伦，而不是我，是这样描述的：你相当于用咖啡从你的能源银行账户上借了一笔贷款。
You're suppressing the adenosine system.
你正在抑制腺苷系统。
Adenosine makes you sleepy, but that adenosine system will kick in later.
腺苷会让你昏昏欲睡，但腺苷系统会在稍后启动。
So it's a credit card of sorts with an interest rate, and the interest being an energetic lag that you're going to experience in the afternoon.
所以它是一种有利率的信用卡，而利息是你下午将会经历的一种能量滞后。
Satchin Panda: But what happened was with the strong coffee that gave heartburn and acid reflux to a lot of people, so then they started eating something with coffee, and that's how the culture of breakfast started in Turkey.
Satchin Panda：但是，浓咖啡让很多人出现胃灼热和胃酸反流的情况，所以他们开始吃一些加咖啡的东西，这就是土耳其早餐文化的起源。
Andrew Huberman: So coffee actually led to the development of breakfast, not the other way around.
Andrew Huberman：所以咖啡实际上导致了早餐的发展，而不是相反。
That's very heartening.
这非常令人振奋。
Again, no pun intended for the caffeine lovers among us, which I count myself one of those.
再说一次，这并不是对我们当中的咖啡因爱好者来说的双关语，我也认为自己就是其中之一。
Satchin Panda: So essentially, the food before coffee became breakfast.
Satchin Panda：所以本质上来说，咖啡之前的食物就变成了早餐。
So you kind of give something to your stomach, so it's busy digesting that, and then when the coffee comes in, it's not reacting to coffee and creating acid reflux.
所以你给你的胃喂了一些东西，所以它忙于消化它，然后当咖啡进来时，它不会对咖啡产生反应并产生胃酸反流。
Andrew Huberman: So it wasn't, this is fascinating, so it wasn't that breakfast is necessary on its own.
Andrew Huberman：所以事实并非如此，这很有趣，所以早餐本身并不是必需的。
It was essentially a buffer against the gastric distress caused by caffeine intake.
它本质上是一种缓冲剂，可以缓解因摄入咖啡因而引起的胃部不适。
Satchin Panda: At least in that culture.
Satchin Panda：至少在那种文化中是这样。
In that context, we cannot say whether the same thing happened all over the world where coffee is not consumed, but still people eat something in the morning.
在这种情况下，我们不能说同样的事情是否发生在世界各地不喝咖啡的地方，但人们仍然在早上吃东西。
Andrew Huberman: You said you start your first meal of the day at around 8.
Andrew Huberman：你说你在 8 点左右开始一天的第一顿饭。
What time do you wake up?
你几点起床？
Satchin Panda: I wake up around 6.
Satchin Panda：我六点左右起床。
Five thirty to 6.
五点三十分到六点。
Andrew Huberman: What time do you have your first caffeine?
Andrew Huberman：你什么时候第一次喝咖啡因？
Satchin Panda: No, actually.
Satchin Panda：不，实际上。
So that's why I brought up this story, because I have coffee after my breakfast.
这就是我提起这个故事的原因，因为我早餐后喝咖啡。
Andrew Huberman: Fantastic.
安德鲁·休伯曼：太棒了。
I'm a big proponent of delaying caffeine intake for a few hours after waking for other reasons that my listeners have heard me talk about endlessly.
我非常支持在起床后推迟几个小时摄入咖啡因，因为我的听众已经听我没完没了地谈论过其他原因。
So I won't bother with that now.
所以我现在不会打扰这个。
But I think allowing...
但我认为允许...
suffice to say that allowing some of the natural waking up signals to occur and using light to kind of clear away adenosine.
可以说，允许一些自然的唤醒信号发生并使用光来清除腺苷。
To further extent, any activity is better than using a stimulant.
进一步来说，任何活动都比使用兴奋剂更好。
But until a few hours later, this is fascinating because I've never thought about the link between extension into the night socialization, or socializing, rather feeding and caffeine.
但直到几个小时后，这才令人着迷，因为我从未想过延长到夜间社交或社交，而不是喂食和咖啡因之间的联系。
I'd like to take a brief break and thank our sponsor, InsideTracker.
我想短暂休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商 InsideTracker。
InsideTracker is a personalized nutrition platform that analyzes data from your blood and DNA to help you better understand your body and help you reach your health goals.
InsideTracker 是一个个性化营养平台，可分析您的血液和 DNA 数据，帮助您更好地了解您的身体并帮助您实现健康目标。
I've long been a believer in getting regular blood work done for the simple reason that many of the factors that impact your immediate and long-term health can only be analyzed from a quality blood test.
长期以来，我一直坚信定期进行血液检查，原因很简单，影响您当前和长期健康的许多因素只能通过高质量的血液测试来分析。
The problem with a lot of blood and DNA tests out there, however, is that you get data back about metabolic factors, lipids, and hormones and so forth, but you don't know what to do with those data.
然而，大量血液和 DNA 测试的问题在于，您获得了有关代谢因素、脂质和激素等的数据，但您不知道如何处理这些数据。
InsideTracker solves that problem and makes it very easy for you to understand what sorts of nutritional, behavioral, maybe even supplementation-based interventions you might want to take on in order to adjust the numbers of those metabolic factors, hormones, lipids and other things that impact your immediate and long-term health.
InsideTracker 解决了这个问题，让您很容易了解您可能想要采取什么样的营养、行为、甚至补充剂干预措施，以调整代谢因素、激素、脂质和其他影响您近期和长期健康的因素的数量。
To bring those numbers into the ranges that are appropriate and indeed optimal for you.
将这些数字纳入对您来说合适且确实最佳的范围内。
If you'd like to try InsideTracker, go to insidetracker.com/huberman.
如果您想尝试 InsideTracker，请访问 insidetracker.com/huberman。
They have a special promotion right now through Pi Day, March 14, where you can get 31% off their ultimate plan.
他们现在在 3 月 14 日 Pi Day 之前有特别促销活动，您可以在他们的终极套餐中享受 31% 的折扣。
This is their biggest promotion of the year.
这是他们今年最大的促销活动。
Again, if you go to insidetracker.com/huberman, you can get 31% off their ultimate plan.
同样，如果您访问 insidetracker.com/huberman，您可以享受他们的终极套餐 31% 的折扣。
Satchin Panda: Now, actually, I'm kind of speaking of what many other researchers have found.
Satchin Panda：现在，实际上，我正在谈论许多其他研究人员的发现。
This fireside chat, I'm forgetting again the name of the scientist.
这次炉边谈话，我又忘记了那位科学家的名字。
I think she's from the University of Washington, Seattle.
我认为她来自西雅图华盛顿大学。
She went to Africa and kind of recorded what people were saying.
她去了非洲并记录了人们的言论。
Of course, she could not understand what they were saying.
当然，她听不懂他们在说什么。
Andrew Huberman: Twitter and whether or not Tesla's stock is going up, of course.
Andrew Huberman：当然还有 Twitter 以及特斯拉的股票是否上涨。
Just kidding, folks.
只是开玩笑，伙计们。
Satchin Panda: And then came back and tried to translate and then figured out that what they were saying during daytime and in the evening were very different.
Satchin Panda：然后回来尝试翻译，然后发现他们白天和晚上说的话非常不同。
Andrew Huberman: What are they talking about at night?
安德鲁·休伯曼：他们晚上在谈论什么？
Satchin Panda: Exactly.
萨钦熊猫：没错。
So this is like they're talking about matchmaking and talking about politics and strategizing to gather food or even singing and dancing.
所以这就像他们在谈论相亲，谈论政治，运筹帷幄，甚至唱歌跳舞。
So this is, if we think about it, how we manage sunset to our bedtime.
所以，如果我们仔细想想，这就是我们如何管理日落到就寝时间的。
What we do between sunset and bedtime affects most of our health.
我们在日落和就寝时间之间所做的事情会影响我们的大部分健康。
Andrew Huberman: I'm going to think about that for a moment.
Andrew Huberman：我要考虑一下这个问题。
I totally agree.
我完全同意。
And by the way, I'm a huge believer and I'm living in great hope for the idea that right now I do think that scientists understand a lot more about the different stages of sleep, slow-wave sleep, REM sleep, etc. than we do active waking states.
顺便说一句，我是一个坚定的信徒，我对这个想法抱有很大的希望，现在我确实认为科学家对睡眠的不同阶段、慢波睡眠、快速眼动睡眠等的了解比我们对活跃的清醒状态的了解要多得多。
Like we talk about being focused or being alert.
就像我们谈论集中注意力或保持警惕一样。
But those aren't scientific terms, as we know.
但据我们所知，这些都不是科学术语。
But I do believe, and I've noticed a distinct difference between the first eight hours of the day in terms of cognition.
但我确实相信，而且我注意到一天的前八小时在认知方面存在明显差异。
And we know that the catecholamines are at much higher levels, plus cortisol.
我们知道儿茶酚胺和皮质醇的含量要高得多。
So dopamine, cortisol, epinephrine, all of that is really at much higher levels than in the later evening.
所以多巴胺、皮质醇、肾上腺素，所有这些的水平实际上都比晚上高得多。
And so this evening time, certainly in the context of mental health, we know that morning and evening, we are basically different creatures.
因此，今天晚上，当然是在心理健康的背景下，我们知道早上和晚上，我们基本上是不同的生物。
Yeah, completely.
是的，完全如此。
Satchin Panda: So that's why I think in the evening, if you think about it again, this is again another set of research from my good friend Horacio--
Satchin Panda：所以这就是为什么我晚上想，如果你再想一想，这又是我好朋友 Horacio 的另一组研究——
Andrew Huberman: --de la Iglesia?
安德鲁·休伯曼：--de la Iglesia？
Satchin Panda: Yeah.
萨钦熊猫：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Oh yeah, I'm a big fan of Horacio's.
Andrew Huberman：哦，是的，我是 Horacio 的忠实粉丝。
He's a fellow Argentine, so occasionally we riff about things related to that.
他是阿根廷人，所以我们偶尔会聊一些与此相关的事情。
But he's a wonderful biologist.
但他是一位出色的生物学家。
Are you guys kind of--
你们是不是有点——
Satchin Panda: --I say he's very humble and keeps a low profile, but he does amazing research.
Satchin Panda：——我说他非常谦虚，保持低调，但他做了令人惊叹的研究。
Andrew Huberman: Totally agree.
安德鲁·休伯曼：完全同意。
Satchin Panda: He does research that we want to know, but nobody is ready to do it because field research is very difficult to go to the wilderness or go to the places where there is no electricity and then record when these people are eating, sleeping, or in this case, activity, exposure to light, that's what Horacio has done.
Satchin Panda：他做了我们想知道的研究，但没有人准备好这样做，因为实地研究非常困难，去荒野或去没有电的地方，然后记录这些人什么时候吃饭、睡觉，或者在这种情况下，活动、暴露在光线下，这就是Horacio所做的。
And he puts on this active watch, which is kind of a modern activity tracker, but it's a little bit more refined because it also collects light information.
他戴上了这款主动手表，这是一种现代活动追踪器，但它更精致一点，因为它还收集光信息。
Andrew Huberman: So no night owls versus morning people.
Andrew Huberman：所以夜猫子与早起的人是没有区别的。
Satchin Panda: Exactly.
萨钦熊猫：没错。
So we'll get to that.
所以我们会谈到这一点。
Andrew Huberman: None of this, I get attacked for many reasons.
Andrew Huberman：这些都不是，我因为很多原因受到攻击。
It just goes with the business I'm in, of being public facing these days.
这与我现在从事的、面向公众的业务相一致。
But every time I talk about viewing sunrise or low-angle sunlight, getting some sunlight early, someone says, well, I'm a night owl.
但每次我谈到观看日出或低角度阳光、尽早接受阳光时，都会有人说，好吧，我是个夜猫子。
And it's almost like a protest of trying to protect identity.
这几乎就像是试图保护身份的抗议。
It's become this ideological identity-related thing.
它已经成为与意识形态身份相关的事情。
I'm a night owl, I'm a morning person, and I'm not.
我是一个夜猫子，我是一个早起的人，但我不是。
But you're telling me that in these cultures where there isn't electricity but there is fire, people are going to sleep within all of them, within about 15 minutes of one another.
但你告诉我，在这些没有电但有火的文化中，人们会在所有这些文化中入睡，彼此相隔大约 15 分钟。
Satchin Panda: Yeah.
萨钦熊猫：是的。
Andrew Huberman: So there is no such thing as a night owl or a morning person in the context of--.
安德鲁·休伯曼：所以，在这种情况下，不存在“夜猫子”或“早起者”这样的东西。
Satchin Panda: --Actually, I asked him pointedly, and then he said, no, he has not seen, has tracked hundreds of people.
Satchin Panda：——实际上，我尖锐地问了他，然后他说，不，他没有看到，已经追踪了数百人。
And if we ask, there are many sleep researchers, at least the public-facing sleep physicians or experts, they will say, yeah, we can say one-third of people are night owls, one-third are morning, and then one-third are in between.
如果我们问，有很多睡眠研究人员，至少是面向公众的睡眠医生或专家，他们会说，是的，我们可以说三分之一的人是夜猫子，三分之一是早起者，三分之一是介于两者之间的人。
Andrew Huberman: But they call them, like, bears, wolves.
安德鲁·休伯曼：但他们称它们为“熊”、“狼”。
And I'm not being disparaging of that idea.
我并不是贬低这个想法。
I think people really do feel as if they orient towards one pattern or another.
我认为人们确实感觉自己倾向于一种或另一种模式。
Satchin Panda: When I was an undergrad student, I never went to bed before midnight.
Satchin Panda：当我还是一名本科生时，我从来没有在午夜之前上床睡觉。
And actually midnight was my going to bed time.
事实上午夜是我睡觉的时间。
Exactly, like 11:45, I'd try to get ready to hit the bed, and then by 12 I'm in bed and I used to get up at 6, 6:15.
确切地说，比如 11:45，我会试着准备上床睡觉，然后到 12 点我就上床睡觉了，我过去常常在 6、6:15 起床。
Andrew Huberman: That's a pretty short sleep.
Andrew Huberman：睡眠时间相当短。
Satchin Panda: With an alarm of course.
Satchin Panda：当然有闹钟。
But then in daytime I used to take 45 minutes to a one-hour nap and that was regular even if, whenever I got time.
但在白天，我通常会花 45 分钟到一小时的小睡，即使只要我有时间，这也是很正常的。
Of course in college you don't have the whole day, unlike in high school you don't have the opportunity to nap, but in college you can.
当然，在大学里你没有一整天的时间，不像在高中你没有机会小睡，但在大学里你可以。
Andrew Huberman: I might have been one of those kids with his hoodie on, napping on the desk.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我可能就是那些穿着连帽衫、在桌子上打瞌睡的孩子之一。
But they come around and they wake you up.
但他们会过来并叫醒你。
Satchin Panda: Yeah, but in this case I just come back to the dorm and after lunch usually I used to take a nap.
Satchin Panda：是的，但在这种情况下，我只是回到宿舍，午饭后我通常会小睡一会儿。
So then in grad school, I remember I rarely went to bed before 2 a.m.
所以在读研究生时，我记得我很少在凌晨 2 点之前上床睡觉。
And I could have clearly said that I'm a night owl.
我可以明确地说我是一个夜猫子。
And actually I was a night owl.
事实上我是一个夜猫子。
I was very comfortable staying up so late.
这么晚熬夜我很舒服。
I was very productive doing experiments, writing all these manuscripts mostly.
我做实验的效率很高，主要是写所有这些手稿。
But then afterwards when I look back in postdoc, when we had our daughter, then things started changing because you have to put the baby to sleep and then after the baby sleeps it's almost, when you have a baby your life revolves around the baby.
但后来当我在博士后回顾时，当我们有了女儿时，事情开始发生变化，因为你必须让婴儿入睡，然后婴儿睡着后，几乎，当你有了婴儿时，你的生活就围绕着婴儿转。
So then we have to dim down the light.
所以我们必须把灯光调暗。
There is no caffeine and alcohol drinking or any other things after the baby sleeps because we cannot make too much noise and others.
宝宝睡觉后不要喝咖啡因和酒精或任何其他东西，因为我们不能发出太多噪音和其他东西。
So then I realized that no, I'm actually not a night owl.
然后我意识到，不，我实际上不是夜猫子。
And I became kind of more normal because I could go to sleep between 10 and 11.
我变得更加正常了，因为我可以在 10 点到 11 点之间睡觉。
And that's how I thought, well, maybe this was very unique to me.
我就是这么想的，好吧，也许这对我来说非常独特。
But what is interesting is I have another colleague, good friend Ken Wright Jr.
但有趣的是我还有另一位同事，好朋友小肯·赖特 (Ken Wright Jr.)。
Andrew Huberman: In Colorado.
安德鲁·休伯曼：在科罗拉多州。
Satchin Panda: In Colorado.
萨钦熊猫：在科罗拉多州。
And he also had grad students and postdocs like me who strongly believed that they were night owls just like everybody else.
他也有像我这样的研究生和博士后，他们坚信自己和其他人一样是夜猫子。
And he took the whole lab camping.
他带着整个实验室露营。
And when they were camping of course there was less light and a lot of physical activity, hiking during the day.
当然，当他们露营时，光线较少，体力活动较多，白天徒步旅行。
And they all went to bed between 9 and 10:30 p.m.
他们都在晚上 9 点到 10 点 30 分之间上床睡觉。
Andrew Huberman: I love that study.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我喜欢这项研究。
Satchin Panda: Yeah.
萨钦熊猫：是的。
Andrew Huberman: What Satchin just described was a study, I think there were two studies.
Andrew Huberman：萨钦刚才描述的是一项研究，我认为有两项研究。
Satchin Panda: There were two, yeah.
Satchin Panda：有两个，是的。
Andrew Huberman: And what's interesting, as I recall, is that after going camping for a weekend, where people wake with more or less with the sunrise and go to sleep a few hours after sunset, their melatonin rhythms and cortisol rhythms and sleep-wake rhythms persisted on that schedule for several weeks despite returning to environments where there was a lot of artificial lighting, which I find amazing that just a weekend of consistent rising and going to bed with the sunrise and sunset more or less allowed a reset that was very long lasting.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：我记得，有趣的是，在周末露营后，人们或多或少随着日出而醒来，日落后几个小时入睡，尽管回到了有大量人工照明的环境，他们的褪黑激素节律、皮质醇节律和睡眠-觉醒节律仍按该时间表持续了数周，我发现令人惊讶的是，仅仅一个持续随着日出和日落起床和上床的周末或多或少就允许了很长时间的重置持久。
Satchin Panda: So actually, even in Horacio's study, he found that almost all the Tobas, they wake up around sunrise time.
Satchin Panda：所以实际上，即使在Horacio的研究中，他也发现几乎所有的托巴斯人都会在日出时间醒来。
And it's amazing, when I look at the standard deviation, it's like so tight.
令人惊奇的是，当我查看标准差时，它看起来非常紧。
Andrew Huberman: Take that night owls, so-called night owls.
安德鲁·休伯曼：以夜猫子为例，所谓的夜猫子。
I also, in graduate school I would work until 2 a.m.
我也在研究生院工作到凌晨 2 点。
I loved it.
我喜欢它。
I would blast music in the lab.
我会在实验室里播放音乐。
Everyone was at home, pretty much not everyone, but there was the night crew.
每个人都在家，几乎不是每个人，但有夜间工作人员。
And then I'd get in sometime around, get up sometime around 9:30-10:00 and then get in around 11.
然后我会在某个时间进去，在 9:30-10:00 左右起床，然后在 11 点左右进去。
And it was no problem because I was going to stay up so very late.
这没问题，因为我要熬夜到很晚。
And then over time I noticed I'd become more locked to a standard schedule.
随着时间的推移，我发现我变得更加拘泥于标准的时间表。
So I think what we're saying is that our internal clocks can shift, but this idea that we are genetically biased towards one schedule or another may need revisiting.
所以我认为我们所说的是我们的内部时钟可以改变，但是我们在基因上偏向于一种或另一种时间表的想法可能需要重新审视。
Satchin Panda: That's the conclusion I'm taking from this couple of aspects.
Satchin Panda：这是我从这几个方面得出的结论。
One is that some people are genetically so preprogrammed because the other flip side is what is called technically familial advanced sleep syndrome.
一是有些人在基因上就被预先编程了，因为另一方面是所谓的家族性高级睡眠综合症。
So these people, you can give them caffeine or whatever, but they will fall asleep, say at 8:00, they cannot stay awake till 9 or 10.
所以这些人，你可以给他们咖啡因什么的，但是他们会睡着，比如说8:00，他们不能保持清醒，直到9点或10点。
And since it's a very strong phenotype in the sleep and circadian rhythm field, they are very well studied.
由于它在睡眠和昼夜节律领域具有非常强的表型，因此对它们进行了很好的研究。
So in fact, Louis Ptáček and Ying-Hui Fu, they were the first ones to track one family like this.
事实上，Louis Ptáček 和 Ying-Hui Fu 是第一个追踪这样的家庭的人。
And then they figured out there was a mutation in one of the clock genes, period two, that clock gene.
然后他们发现第二周期的时钟基因之一发生了突变。
And that mutation allowed the clock to run in a way that these people went to bed very early.
这种突变让生物钟以一种让这些人很早睡觉的方式运行。
Andrew Huberman: I guess historically, given these fireside chats, those people were probably not contributing much to the political discussion.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：我想从历史上看，考虑到这些炉边谈话，这些人可能没有对政治讨论做出太多贡献。
Satchin Panda: Andrew Huberman: Whatever that was decided after they went to sleep is what they woke up into.
Satchin Panda：Andrew Huberman：无论他们入睡后决定什么，他们醒来后都会做出什么决定。
That reminds me, because as you were describing the difference between nighttime discussions versus morning discussions, is there any theme to what is discussed in the morning versus in the nighttime?
这让我想起，因为当您描述夜间讨论与早晨讨论之间的区别时，早上与夜间讨论的内容有什么主题吗？
Or are people just eating and sipping their caffeine and just waking up?
或者人们只是吃东西、喝咖啡因然后就醒了？
But are there any ideas about what morning discussions really consist of?
但是对于早上讨论的真正内容有什么想法吗？
Satchin Panda: Morning discussions or daytime discussions are mostly about work, and hunting, gathering, farming, all that stuff.
Satchin Panda：早上的讨论或白天的讨论主要是关于工作、狩猎、采集、农耕等等。
And even these days that's what we do.
即使现在，我们也是这样做的。
I go to work and it's mostly one meeting after another.
我去上班，大部分时间都是一场又一场的会议。
And we're talking about how if you're in different committees and you're solving problems or your students come with questions.
我们正在讨论如果你在不同的委员会中并且你正在解决问题或者你的学生提出问题如何。
You have your TA or the office hours, all these things work related.
你有你的助教或办公时间，所有这些事情都与工作相关。
We are not talking serious philosophy unless you are in a philosophy department and you are talking, or political science.
我们不是在谈论严肃的哲学，除非你在哲学系并且你在谈论政治学。
And also, we are not singing and dancing.
而且，我们不是唱歌跳舞。
So that's why the evening activities, even these days, are very different.
这就是为什么即使是现在，晚上的活动也有很大不同。
And typically, the evening activities are where we express ourselves.
通常，晚上的活动是我们表达自己的地方。
We express who we are.
我们表达我们是谁。
We feel like we are, you know, you and I, we have this academic intellectual freedom.
我们觉得我们，你知道，你和我，我们拥有这种学术知识自由。
We can talk about our work — just like we are talking now.
我们可以谈论我们的工作——就像我们现在谈论的那样。
There are a lot of people who work for, even in the tech industry, they may be working for Google and all these big tech companies.
即使在科技行业，也有很多人在为谷歌和所有这些大型科技公司工作。
They cannot talk about their work to anybody else.
他们不能与其他人谈论他们的工作。
Andrew Huberman: It's all secret.
安德鲁·休伯曼：这都是秘密。
Satchin Panda: It's all secret.
Satchin Panda：这都是秘密。
So just imagine.
所以想象一下吧。
So they're spending more than half of their waking time at work thinking and doing work, but they cannot talk about that work, even sometimes to their own family members.
因此，他们在工作中花费了一半以上的醒着时间来思考和工作，但他们不能谈论这项工作，甚至有时不能与自己的家人谈论。
So then what happens for them?
那么他们会发生什么呢？
A lot of people also do the same thing, like the person who is going and baking in a restaurant or cooking, or the person who is taking trucks and driving, or nurses and doctors.
很多人也做同样的事情，比如去餐馆烘焙或做饭的人，或者开卡车和开车的人，或者护士和医生。
Andrew Huberman: Can't talk about their patients, confidentiality.
Andrew Huberman：不能谈论他们的病人，保密。
Satchin Panda: Yeah.
萨钦熊猫：是的。
And some people just don't want to talk about it.
有些人只是不想谈论它。
It's so stressful.
压力太大了。
They don't want to bring that stress home.
他们不想把压力带回家。
So that's why I always say that from sunset until we go to bed, during that time, we try to find time for ourselves.
所以这就是为什么我总是说，从日落到我们上床睡觉，在那段时间里，我们努力为自己寻找时间。
People say, this is "me" time.
人们说，这是“我”的时间。
The "me" time is essentially we want to truly express who we are or we want to entertain ourselves.
“我”的时间本质上是我们想要真正表达我们是谁或者我们想要娱乐自己。
Because on the fireside chat, it's not that everybody was a performer.
因为在炉边聊天中，并不是每个人都是表演者。
There are also some that are in the audience.
观众席上也有一些。
So we always switch our roles.
所以我们总是转换角色。
Sometimes we are performing, and sometimes we are observing.
有时我们在表演，有时我们在观察。
So that's what happens with "me" time.
这就是“我”时间所发生的事情。
Andrew Huberman: I love this.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我喜欢这个。
So maybe social media time should be restricted to just maybe a small portion of that evening time, because I would hope that people would also interact socially in the room.
因此，也许社交媒体时间应该限制在晚上的一小部分时间，因为我希望人们也能在房间里进行社交互动。
Satchin Panda: Maybe in a constructive way, or maybe you use that for connection with your family members whom you love, or you can have some productive discussion or something.
Satchin Panda：也许以一种建设性的方式，或者你可以用它来与你所爱的家人建立联系，或者你可以进行一些富有成效的讨论或其他什么。
So it's kind of interesting.
所以这很有趣。
Andrew Huberman: I think it's extremely interesting because I think, again, this conversation about time-restricted feeding is really a conversation about circadian rhythms and sleep-wake activity and human evolution, right?
安德鲁·休伯曼：我认为这非常有趣，因为我再次认为，关于限时喂养的对话实际上是关于昼夜节律、睡眠-觉醒活动和人类进化的对话，对吗？
Satchin Panda: So that's why, let's go back to this night owl, because we kind of made a comment that maybe it's not genetic, but this is where I'm still wrapping my head around it, because these days, there are some GWAS studies where they're trying to look at night owls to see whether there are some genetic links.
Satchin Panda：这就是为什么，让我们回到夜猫子身上，因为我们发表了评论，也许它不是遗传的，但这就是我仍然在思考的地方，因为这些天，有一些 GWAS 研究试图观察夜猫子，看看是否存在一些遗传联系。
And sometimes we always think, yeah, if you take half a million people, of course you'll find some on the low side.
有时我们总是想，是的，如果你有 50 万人，当然你会发现一些人偏少。
But going back to this idea, are some people more sensitive to light?
但回到这个想法，是否有些人对光更敏感？
So it's likely that the same level of light, even in the same household, may make some people stay awake late into the night, whereas other people are more resistant to light so that they can go to bed early.
因此，即使在同一个家庭中，相同水平的光线也可能会让一些人在深夜保持清醒，而另一些人则对光线更有抵抗力，这样他们就可以早点睡觉。
And since light has become so prevalent these days, and this Toba story that we are talking about, or people going on camping, we have removed that light.
由于这些天灯变得如此普遍，以及我们正在谈论的这个多巴故事，或者人们去露营，我们已经移除了灯。
So there is some evidence that people's light sensitivity, particularly the IPRGC, or this Intrinsically Photosensitive Retinal Ganglion Cell, or in simple speech, is the blue light sensors.
因此，有一些证据表明，人的光敏感性，特别是IPRGC，或者这种本质光敏视网膜神经节细胞，或者简单地说，就是蓝光传感器。
In our eyes, there seems to be even one log unit change in sensitivity as measured by pupil constriction.
在我们眼中，通过瞳孔收缩测量的灵敏度似乎甚至有一个对数单位的变化。
Andrew Huberman: So for some people, a small amount of artificial light at night could really shift their circadian clock, wake them up, essentially.
Andrew Huberman：所以对于某些人来说，夜间少量的人造光确实可以改变他们的生物钟，从本质上唤醒他们。
Satchin Panda: And then for some, it may not.
Satchin Panda：但对于某些人来说，可能不会。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, I'm very sensitive to light at night.
Andrew Huberman：是的，我对夜间的光线非常敏感。
Exquisitely sensitive to it.
对它异常敏感。
Satchin Panda: So then you are like a teenager?
Satchin Panda：那么你就像个青少年吗？
Andrew Huberman: Yes, in many ways I've been told this.
Andrew Huberman：是的，我在很多方面都被告知这一点。
Thank you.
谢谢。
I think I have actually switched to using a red night-light.
我想我实际上已经改用红色夜灯了。
But I should be clear, not a fancy, high-cost red light for sake of any kind of infrared simulation, but a red party light-type light.
但我应该明确的是，不是为了任何类型的红外模拟而使用花哨的、高成本的红灯，而是红方灯型灯。
And I find that that was based on reading one study that we covered in an episode on jet lag and shift work, which was that it seems to reduce the cortisol-releasing properties of light at night to use red-shifted light.
我发现这是基于阅读我们在关于时差和轮班工作的一集中介绍的一项研究，该研究表明使用红移光似乎会减少夜间光释放皮质醇的特性。
So I just use a red light bulb.
所以我只使用红色灯泡。
I actually travel with one.
我实际上带着一个去旅行。
If I go to an Airbnb or hotel and I switch to red light, I find that I fall asleep and stay asleep throughout the night much more consistently, especially when I'm in new environments, which always makes it disruptive to sleep.
如果我去 Airbnb 或酒店，然后切换到红灯，我发现我会更稳定地入睡并且整晚都睡得更香，尤其是当我处于新环境中时，这总是会扰乱睡眠。
It's made an enormous difference in the depth and duration of my sleep because oftentimes hotel lights in the bathroom, you'll turn them on, you're just getting beamed.
这对我的睡眠深度和持续时间产生了巨大的影响，因为通常酒店浴室里的灯，你打开它们，你就会受到光束照射。
And you're right, some people don't seem to be bothered by that.
你是对的，有些人似乎并不为此烦恼。
I really struggle with that.
我真的很挣扎。
Satchin Panda: Yeah.
萨钦熊猫：是的。
And in fact, in teenage, right after puberty, there seems to be, I think that's when teenagers become more sensitive to light.
事实上，在青少年时期，就在青春期之后，我认为青少年似乎对光变得更加敏感。
And it's well known that teenage boys and girls tend to stay awake late into the night and they can stay up to 12, past midnight.
众所周知，十几岁的男孩和女孩往往会熬夜到深夜，甚至可以熬到午夜十二点。
Although they can stay up that late, that doesn't mean that their sleep schedule is reduced.
虽然他们可以熬夜到那么晚，但这并不意味着他们的睡眠时间减少了。
Their body still needs the same amount of sleep as other teenagers.
他们的身体仍然需要与其他青少年相同的睡眠量。
So that's why they are more likely not to wake up at 6:30 or 7:00 when we expect them to wake up and go to school.
这就是为什么当我们期望他们起床去上学时，他们更有可能不会在 6:30 或 7:00 起床。
Andrew Huberman: I have a question and I ask every circadian-related biologist I can come into contact with this and no one has been able to give me an answer one way or the other.
Andrew Huberman：我有一个问题，我问了每一位我能接触到的与昼夜节律相关的生物学家，但没有人能够以某种方式给我答案。
But I grew up hearing that every hour of sleep before midnight was of more value or potency than the hours after midnight.
但我从小就听说，午夜之前的每一个小时的睡眠都比午夜之后的几个小时更有价值或更有效。
And Indeed I find that if I go to sleep at 9:30 or 10:00 p.m.
事实上，我发现如果我在晚上 9:30 或 10:00 睡觉
I can wake up at 3:00 or 4:00 a.m.
我可以在凌晨 3:00 或 4:00 起床。
Feeling pretty fantastic and ready to lean into the day.
感觉棒极了，准备好迎接新的一天。
But if I get the equivalent number of hours of sleep starting at midnight, I feel like complete garbage when I wake up after five, six hours.
但如果我从午夜开始获得相同的睡眠时间，那么当我在五、六个小时后醒来时，我会感觉自己完全是垃圾。
So is there any truth to the idea that going to sleep within three hours of sunset is somehow better for our circadian timing mechanisms?
那么，日落后三小时内入睡对我们的昼夜节律机制更好的想法是否真实？
Satchin Panda: Well, there are a few things.
Satchin Panda：嗯，有几件事。
One, you said that you are very sensitive to light, so I assume that you also avoid bright light in the evening.
一，你说你对光非常敏感，所以我猜你也会在晚上避免强光。
Andrew Huberman: As best I can.
安德鲁·休伯曼：尽我所能。
Satchin Panda: As best as you could.
Satchin Panda：尽你所能。
And then what is happening is with absence of that bright light, your melatonin levels begin to rise.
然后发生的事情是，在没有强光的情况下，你的褪黑激素水平开始上升。
So you are prepared for sleep.
所以你已经准备好睡觉了。
Of course, this is something that we cannot measure because measuring melatonin in every one hour or 30 minutes is very difficult and there is no consumer-facing product yet.
当然，这是我们无法测量的，因为每隔一小时或三十分钟测量一次褪黑激素非常困难，而且还没有面向消费者的产品。
So it's likely that your body is preparing very well under this dim light to fall asleep.
因此，在这种昏暗的灯光下，您的身体很可能已经做好了入睡的准备。
And when you are trying to stay awake and go to sleep at midnight, then maybe from midnight for the first three or four hours you are sleeping well.
当你试图在午夜保持清醒并入睡时，也许从午夜开始的前三四个小时你就睡得很好。
But then after that your melatonin level might be beginning to fall.
但在那之后，您的褪黑激素水平可能会开始下降。
And it's not only melatonin, your core body temperature and then your heart rate and everything is changing to make you awake, but the sleep debt that you have accumulated is pushing you to be in bed.
不仅仅是褪黑激素、你的核心体温、你的心率以及一切都在改变让你清醒，而且你积累的睡眠债务正在迫使你上床睡觉。
So there is this tension between the circadian aspect and your sleep debt.
因此，昼夜节律与睡眠债之间存在着紧张关系。
And unfortunately you cannot have a good night of restorative sleep for the second half of the sleep because of the tension.
不幸的是，由于紧张，你在后半段睡眠中无法睡个好觉。
Andrew Huberman: That makes good sense.
安德鲁·休伯曼：这很有道理。
Satchin Panda: Yeah.
萨钦熊猫：是的。
So that's why you are not the only one, it means there are many people who experience that.
所以这就是为什么你不是唯一一个，这意味着有很多人经历过这种情况。
And in fact a lot of people think that, well, this may be the way I sleep.
事实上，很多人认为，这可能就是我睡觉的方式。
Maybe I am not designed to sleep restoratively until I sleep one day, just like the camping trip.
也许我生来就不是为了恢复体力而睡到有一天睡着的，就像野营旅行一样。
Andrew Huberman: And then they realize what it feels like to be--
安德鲁·休伯曼：然后他们意识到那是什么感觉——
Satchin Panda: --What you're missing.
Satchin Panda：——你错过了什么。
Andrew Huberman: Absolutely.
安德鲁·休伯曼：当然。
I want to make sure that we talk about the other aspect of fire, which is that you had a paper that came out recently, a very interesting paper, studying firefighters and time-restricted feeding in firefighters.
我想确保我们谈论火灾的另一个方面，那就是您最近发表了一篇论文，一篇非常有趣的论文，研究消防员和消防员的限时喂养。
Would you share with us the general contour and maybe even some of the specifics of that study?
您能否与我们分享该研究的总体概况，甚至一些细节？
Because I think it's very interesting for the sake of shift workers, but for everybody, really, to understand these results.
因为我认为这对于轮班工人来说非常有趣，但对于每个人来说，真正了解这些结果都是非常有趣的。
Satchin Panda: Yeah.
萨钦熊猫：是的。
So let's go back to shift workers because this also relates to all of us, because I always say that each of us is a shift worker or has lived the life of a shift worker, and we have experienced how terribly difficult it is.
那么我们回到倒班工人这个话题，因为这也关系到我们所有人，因为我总是说我们每个人都是倒班工人或者过着倒班工人的生活，我们都经历过它是多么的艰难。
And now let's start with what is the definition of a shift worker, shift work-like lifestyle.
现在让我们从轮班工人的定义开始，轮班工作的生活方式。
There is no universal definition, unfortunately.
不幸的是，没有通用的定义。
But there are many European countries, and particularly if you go to an international labor organization, then you'll find some references.
但欧洲国家很多，特别是如果你去国际劳工组织，你会找到一些参考资料。
Different European countries have slightly different definitions, which essentially points to, if you stay awake for two or more hours during your habitual sleep time, and when they say habitual sleep time, they assume that we are just, like you said, we are kind of programmed to sleep somewhere between, say, 10:00 p.m.
不同的欧洲国家有稍微不同的定义，这本质上是指，如果你在习惯性睡眠时间里保持清醒两个或更多小时，当他们说习惯性睡眠时间时，他们假设我们只是像你说的那样，我们被编程为在晚上 10:00 到晚上 10:00 之间的某个时间睡觉。
And then stay in bed and kind of wake up after 5:00 a.m.
然后躺在床上，凌晨 5:00 左右醒来。
So the idea is if you are staying awake for two or more hours between 10:00 p.m.
所以我们的想法是，如果您在晚上 10:00 到晚上 10:00 之间保持清醒状态两个或以上小时。
And 5:00 a.m., and you are engaged in some activity, whether it's physical activity or intellectual activity, you are not lying in bed and wondering, worrying about something, but actually working, so that's defined as shift work.
凌晨 5:00，你从事某种活动，无论是体力活动还是智力活动，你不是躺在床上思考、担心某件事，而是实际工作，所以这被定义为轮班工作。
And you don't have to do it every single day.
而且您不必每天都这样做。
Even if you do it once a week for 50 weeks, then that itself is enough to disrupt your physiology and metabolism, behavior, brain function, like a shift worker.
即使你每周做一次，持续 50 周，那么这本身就足以扰乱你的生理和新陈代谢、行为、大脑功能，就像轮班工人一样。
The reason is, as we discussed, when you change our external timing queues, so in this case, when you travel with jet lag or traveling across three days, three hours of jet lag will take three days to reset.
原因是，正如我们所讨论的，当您更改我们的外部计时队列时，因此在这种情况下，当您带着时差旅行或跨越三天旅行时，三个小时的时差将需要三天才能重置。
Similarly, if you're staying awake for two hours extra, or if you're waking up two hours before your habitual wake-up time, then we just don't wake up and then be engaged in some activity in the dark, most of us, and mice, unless you are wearing infrared goggles.
同样，如果你额外保持清醒两个小时，或者你在习惯起床时间之前两个小时醒来，那么我们大多数人和老鼠就不会醒来，然后在黑暗中从事某些活动，除非你戴着红外护目镜。
We turn on light and light resets our clock.
我们打开灯，灯重置我们的时钟。
So in that way, every time we stay up for two or more hours, even for one night, then for the next two nights, our clock is kind of trying to catch up so in that way, for three days, the day of the disruption, and then two days following the disruption, our clock is trying to catch up with the outside time.
因此，每次我们熬夜两个小时或更多小时，即使是一晚，然后在接下来的两个晚上，我们的时钟都会试图赶上外界的时间，这样，在三天内，即中断的当天，然后在中断后的两天，我们的时钟会试图赶上外界的时间。
So our body is not on time with our clock.
所以我们的身体与我们的时钟不准时。
So that means almost for half of the week or half of the year, our clock is trying to catch up.
所以这意味着几乎有半周或半年的时间，我们的时钟都在努力赶上。
So that's the definition of shift work.
这就是轮班工作的定义。
So now let's come back to the Department of Labor Statistics, U.S. government.
现在让我们回到美国政府劳工统计部。
They have not been tracking what percentage of people are doing shift work accurately because there are many difficulties in tracking too, but it's generally accepted that one in five working adults is a card-carrying shift worker.
他们没有准确地追踪轮班工作的人数比例，因为追踪也有很多困难，但人们普遍认为，五分之一的工作成年人是持卡轮班工人。
Card-carrying shift workers means they are nurses, doctors, firefighters and bakers, truck drivers, and many in the service industry.
持卡轮班工人意味着他们是护士、医生、消防员和面包师、卡车司机以及服务行业的许多人。
So that's one in five.
所以这是五分之一。
So 20% of working adults, then, if we think about all the college students, just like I was doing, and you must have done.
那么，20% 的工作成年人，如果我们考虑一下所有的大学生，就像我所做的那样，你们一定也这样做了。
Andrew Huberman: There are deadlines, grant deadlines.
Andrew Huberman：有截止日期，拨款截止日期。
Satchin Panda: Then we are also experiencing the lifestyle of a shift worker because we are delaying sleep.
Satchin Panda：那么我们也正在经历轮班工人的生活方式，因为我们推迟了睡眠。
Even if you're delaying sleep by two hours for most of the college students for five days and then the weekend you are trying to catch up, that's kind of a circadian disruption going on.
即使你将大多数大学生的睡眠时间推迟了两个小时五天，然后在周末你试图补上，这也是一种昼夜节律紊乱。
Then you take 1.5 or 1.6 million new moms in the U.S. every year.
那么美国每年有 1.5 或 160 万新妈妈。
So when the child is born, then that mother is a shift worker.
所以当孩子出生时，那个母亲就是一名轮班工人。
And actually that mother is worse than a shift worker because you don't know what time of the night the baby will wake up and how many times, and there is no weekend in motherhood.
事实上，那个妈妈比轮班工人还糟糕，因为你不知道宝宝晚上什么时候会醒来，醒多少次，而且做母亲没有周末。
So they're also living the life of a shift worker.
所以他们也过着轮班工人的生活。
We don't count many food delivery and Uber drivers, Lyft drivers as shift workers, but many of them, we know that they live this way.
我们并没有把很多送餐司机、Uber 司机、Lyft 司机算作轮班工人，但我们知道他们中的很多人都是这样生活的。
So in that way, we think the actual number of people who are experiencing the life of a shift worker is somewhere around 50% of the adult population at any given time.
因此，我们认为在任何特定时间，经历轮班工人生活的实际人数大约占成年人口的 50% 左右。
So that's why it's also another point that you might have heard from people.
这就是为什么这也是您可能从人们那里听到的另一点。
They will say, oh, I cannot do time-restricted eating because my schedule is messed up, or I work in a different way and that comes into play.
他们会说，哦，我不能进行限时饮食，因为我的日程安排一团糟，或者我以不同的方式工作，这就会发挥作用。
So that's why we thought, okay, so we should try something on shift workers.
这就是为什么我们想，好吧，所以我们应该在轮班工人身上尝试一些东西。
Another point is, although one in five people are shift workers, they carry disproportionately heavier burden of disease because almost all age-related disease that we can think of, whether it's high blood pressure, usually high blood pressure starts in 40s or 50s, high cholesterol, gastrointestinal problem, indigestion, chronic inflammation of the colon, and then even colon cancer in many cases, and then of course, diabetes.
还有一点是，虽然五分之一的人是轮班工人，但他们的疾病负担却格外沉重，因为几乎所有我们能想到的与年龄有关的疾病，无论是高血压，通常高血压在40多岁或50多岁开始，高胆固醇，胃肠道问题，消化不良，结肠慢性炎症，然后在很多情况下甚至是结肠癌，当然还有糖尿病。
All of these are disproportionately more prevalent among shift workers.
所有这些在轮班工人中更为普遍。
But then, when you think about clinical trials, whether it's a drug or a lifestyle, often one of the top 10 exclusion factor criteria is shift work.
但是，当您考虑临床试验时，无论是药物还是生活方式，十大排除因素标准之一通常是轮班工作。
So people who are doing shift work, we exclude them from many of these trials.
因此，我们将轮班工作的人排除在许多此类试验之外。
One thing is most physicians and most scientists, even people who do shift work, know that their body and mind is so messed up that oftentimes even medications may not help them, and so that's why we don't try new medication.
一件事是，大多数医生和大多数科学家，甚至轮班工作的人，都知道他们的身体和思想非常混乱，甚至药物有时也无法帮助他们，所以这就是为什么我们不尝试新药物。
Why take the risk when we know it may not help them?
当我们知道这可能对他们没有帮助时，为什么还要冒险呢？
And then when it comes to lifestyle intervention, whether it's sleep extension, for example, we cannot do it, because they are supposed to stay awake and do their job, we cannot ask them to stay asleep at night.
然后当谈到生活方式干预时，例如，无论是延长睡眠时间，我们都做不到，因为他们应该保持清醒并完成他们的工作，我们不能要求他们晚上睡觉。
And then physical activity and exercise, some people can do, but some people are so tired after all night that they don't have the energy to do physical activity.
然后是体力活动和锻炼，有些人可以做，但有些人一晚上太累了，没有精力做体力活动。
And then nutrition.
然后是营养。
Again, most nutrition studies involve the participants to come to the clinic and get one-on-one, or attend group sessions, and they cannot come.
同样，大多数营养研究都要求参与者来到诊所进行一对一的咨询，或参加小组会议，但他们无法前来。
And sometimes they cannot even come to the clinic visit when people have to draw blood.
有时，当人们必须抽血时，他们甚至不能来诊所就诊。
And in fact, there is another caveat that just if, suppose I'm healthy, I have perfectly normal blood pressure, blood glucose, cholesterol, everything is normal, and I live the life of a shift worker just for five nights.
事实上，还有一个警告，假设我很健康，我的血压、血糖、胆固醇完全正常，一切都正常，而且我过着轮班工人的生活，只住了五个晚上。
That means I'm sleeping less, maybe four or five hours.
这意味着我的睡眠时间减少了，可能只有四五个小时。
And even if I don't eat at nighttime, of course, many shift workers also feel hungry.
当然，即使晚上不吃饭，很多轮班工人也会感到饥饿。
And just to keep their work, they eat.
为了继续工作，他们就吃饭。
Just after five days, my blood glucose level will read almost like I'm prediabetic.
五天后，我的血糖水平几乎就像我处于糖尿病前期一样。
Andrew Huberman: Wow.
安德鲁·休伯曼：哇。
I actually saw a study published in Proceeds of the National Academy that showed that even 100 lux dim light present in the room while people are sleeping with eyes closed can lead to disruptions in morning blood glucose levels in directions that are not good.
我实际上看到发表在《美国国家科学院院刊》上的一项研究表明，当人们闭着眼睛睡觉时，即使房间里存在 100 勒克斯的昏暗光线，也会导致早晨血糖水平出现不良变化。
One night.
一晚。
So the faint clock in the corner or even a nightlight that's too bright could be problematic.
因此，角落里微弱的时钟，甚至是太亮的夜灯都可能会产生问题。
By the way, folks, these effects are reversible.
顺便说一句，各位，这些影响是可逆的。
So whenever I say these things, we get a lot of comments about, oh my goodness, what have I been doing for years?
所以每当我说这些话时，我们都会收到很多评论，天哪，我这些年都在做什么？
But kids with nightlights, this is an issue.
但对于有夜灯的孩子来说，这是一个问题。
But what I'm hearing is that one in five people are truly shift workers in the classic sense.
但我听到的是，五分之一的人是真正意义上的轮班工人。
Their jobs require them to work at night or into the night and sleep into the day.
他们的工作要求他们在晚上工作或工作到深夜并睡到白天。
But far more people are shift workers by virtue of the fact that they're tweeting or working or watching movies at night, even though it's not work in that they're not being paid for that time, they are essentially operating like shift workers.
但更多的人是轮班工人，因为他们在晚上发推文、工作或看电影，尽管这不是工作，因为他们在这段时间没有报酬，但他们本质上就像轮班工人一样工作。
If we add those two groups together, would we say it's what, a third of Americans?
如果我们把这两个群体加在一起，我们会说这是三分之一的美国人吗？
Satchin Panda: I would say half of Americans.
Satchin Panda：我想说是一半的美国人。
Half of Americans.
一半是美国人。
If you take teenagers because high school students and college students.
如果以青少年为例，因为高中生和大学生。
Because again, going back to Horacio's study, Horacio also collected activity data from high school students and college students.
因为再次回到Horacio的研究，Horacio还收集了高中生和大学生的活动数据。
And we have replicated that with high school students and college students in San Diego.
我们已经在圣地亚哥的高中生和大学生中复制了这一点。
So that's Seattle and San Diego...
这就是西雅图和圣地亚哥...
And this study...
而这项研究...
Now, there are many sleep researchers.
现在，有很多睡眠研究人员。
They have been collecting this data.
他们一直在收集这些数据。
And what we find is typically the high school students, they are going to bed, say, around midnight, and college students, at least the UCSD students, we found maybe one out of 10 who went to bed before midnight.
我们发现，通常是高中生，他们会在午夜左右睡觉，而大学生，至少是加州大学圣地亚哥分校的学生，我们发现大约十分之一的人在午夜之前上床睡觉。
Andrew Huberman: That reminds me that Horacio de la Iglesia just published this really nice paper showing that counter to what we believe, students, now, this is the University of Washington in Seattle, I should mention, where it's very dark in the winter, young people, see, these are people in their 20s are staying up later in the winter months compared to the summer months, which is totally counterintuitive.
Andrew Huberman：这让我想起 Horacio de la Iglesia 刚刚发表了一篇非常好的论文，表明与我们所相信的相反，学生们，现在，这是西雅图的华盛顿大学，我应该提到，那里的冬天非常黑暗，年轻人，看，这些 20 多岁的人在冬天比夏天熬夜更晚，这是完全违反直觉的。
You think, okay, everyone stays up late in the summer and goes to bed early in the winter, but because of artificial lighting, it's the exact opposite.
你想，好吧，每个人夏天都熬夜，冬天早睡，但由于人工照明，情况恰恰相反。
Satchin Panda: Yeah.
萨钦熊猫：是的。
I don't know whether Horacio monitored it, but my other suspicion, I'm not saying whether it's true.
我不知道奥拉西奥是否监控了它，但我的另一个怀疑，我并不是说这是否属实。
In winter, we are more likely to consume more coffee, hot chocolate in the evening, and that might also be delaying sleep onset.
在冬天，我们更有可能在晚上喝更多的咖啡、热巧克力，这也可能会延迟入睡。
Andrew Huberman: Makes sense.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：有道理。
Satchin Panda: So in that way, again, here is another thing which can be related to policy or practice at educational institutes.
Satchin Panda：这样一来，这又是一件与教育机构的政策或实践有关的事情。
So what happened during COVID was that everybody went to remote learning.
因此，在新冠疫情期间，每个人都进行了远程学习。
The assignments became digital and assignment submission became digital.
作业变得数字化，作业提交也变得数字化。
And there are many systems, online, systems that came into play, and by default, the assignment submission deadline became midnight.
并且有许多在线系统开始发挥作用，默认情况下，作业提交截止日期为午夜。
So now what is happening is, I don't know about Stanford, maybe when you are giving assignments, when is the deadline?
所以现在发生的事情是，我不了解斯坦福大学，也许当你布置作业时，截止日期是什么时候？
Andrew Huberman: Midnight, typically midnight.
Andrew Huberman：午夜，通常是午夜。
Satchin Panda: So then most students will try to cram as much as possible, try to solve as much as possible, and submit at midnight.
Satchin Panda：所以大多数学生会尽可能多地死记硬背，尽可能多地解决问题，然后在午夜提交。
And it'll be really cool to go back to your system administrator to see if there are so many, the frequency plot of frequency distribution of what time people are submitting their assignment, because we know when we submit our grant.
返回到您的系统管理员那里看看是否有这么多，人们提交作业的频率分布的频率图，这真的很酷，因为我们知道我们何时提交拨款。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
You hear about the obesity crisis, the crisis of metabolic disorders, not just in the U.S., but everywhere in the world.
你听说过肥胖危机、代谢紊乱危机，不仅在美国，而且在世界各地。
I mean, it's really striking.
我的意思是，这真的很引人注目。
I remember going to a Keystone meeting, a scientific meeting in the early 2000s, and there was a map of the United States and it showed where the obesity rates were over 30% in adults.
我记得参加过一个Keystone会议，2000年代初期的一个科学会议，有一张美国地图，上面显示了哪些地方成年人的肥胖率超过30%。
And the entire country basically was lighting up like crazy.
整个国家基本上都疯狂地亮起来了。
Now it would be the entire country, but there were these zones in the middle that were almost devoid of obesity.
现在是整个国家，但中间的这些区域几乎没有肥胖。
Colorado, namely Idaho at that time, those are now also fallen under the umbrella of rampant obesity.
科罗拉多州，即当时的爱达荷州，现在也落入了肥胖猖獗的阴影之下。
And everyone is speculating, okay, is it seed oils?
每个人都在猜测，好吧，这是种子油吗？
Is it this?
是这个吗？
Is it that?
是那个吗？
Is it highly processed foods?
是高度加工食品吗？
I'm guessing it's all of those things--
我猜这就是所有这些事情——
Satchin Panda: --It's all of those things.--
Satchin Panda：--都是这些东西。--
Andrew Huberman: --including lack of activity.
Andrew Huberman：——包括缺乏活动。
But one has to wonder, given everything we're talking about in terms of metabolic dysfunction, late-shifted eating, all these issues with late-shifted eating and staying up late with artificial lighting, whether or not that could be one of the major factors in the so-called obesity crisis.
但人们不得不怀疑，考虑到我们所谈论的代谢功能障碍、晚班饮食以及所有这些与晚班饮食和人工照明熬夜有关的问题，这是否可能是所谓肥胖危机的主要因素之一。
Satchin Panda: It's likely we always say, "freshman 15."
Satchin Panda：我们很可能总是说“15 年级新生”。
Andrew Huberman: That's right,
安德鲁·休伯曼：没错，
Satchin Panda: Because these kids are gaining 15 pounds in their freshman year in college.
Satchin Panda：因为这些孩子在大学一年级时体重增加了 15 磅。
And this is where I think as educators or professors, it'll be interesting to go back and see what we can do.
这就是我认为作为教育工作者或教授，回去看看我们能做什么会很有趣的地方。
Because another thing that's also becoming more and more common, for example, I give a circadian rhythm class, which means I just give two lectures.
因为另一件事也变得越来越普遍，例如，我上昼夜节律课，这意味着我只上两堂课。
And I remember when I started 15, 17 years ago, that lecture used to be around 1:30 p.m.
我记得 15、17 年前我开始上课时，那个讲座通常是在下午 1:30 左右。
or 2:00 p.m.
或下午 2:00
in the afternoon, and it's a two-and-a-half-hour lecture, so it's done by 5.
下午的，两个半小时的讲座，所以五点就结束了。
And for the last year, before the pandemic, I realized that they changed the timing.
去年，在大流行之前，我意识到他们改变了时机。
Now, the lecture was starting at 7:00 p.m.
现在，讲座于晚上 7:00 开始。
So I was finishing by 9-9:30 p.m.
所以我在晚上 9 点至 9 点 30 分之前完成了工作。
And these kids, they had to go and eat after 9:30.
而这些孩子，他们必须在 9 点 30 分之后去吃饭。
Study, socialize, study, socialize.
学习、社交、学习、社交。
Fireside chat, fireside chat, and then to express themselves, like, to feel free from assignments, when are they going to do that?
炉边聊天，炉边聊天，然后表达自己，比如，摆脱作业，他们什么时候会这样做？
After they submit the assignment, then they're going to do that.
提交作业后，他们就会这样做。
So that's why we have to go back and revisit this issue, say, okay.
所以这就是为什么我们必须回去重新审视这个问题，好吧。
So for adults, for most of us who are working a day job, our deadline is 5:00 p.m.
因此，对于成年人，对于我们大多数白天工作的人来说，我们的截止日期是下午 5:00。
in most cases, right?
大多数情况下，对吗？
It means at least in the university system, the person who is submitting the grant or who is taking care of my IRB or I cook, they are all leaving at 5:00.
这意味着至少在大学系统中，提交补助金的人或照顾我的 IRB 或我做饭的人，他们都会在 5:00 离开。
So for me, everything has to end by 5.
所以对我来说，一切都必须在 5 点结束。
Andrew Huberman: I think for most people out there, this raises a kind of macroscopic question, which is maybe it's not so much about restricting the feeding window, but maybe it's about feeding mostly and being active mostly in the early part of the day.
Andrew Huberman：我认为对于大多数人来说，这提出了一种宏观问题，这可能与其说是限制进食窗口，不如说是主要是在一天的早些时候进食和活动。
I mean, I could imagine a time three, four years from now when waking up early and going to bed within three hours of sunset is the protocol which harnesses all other protocols, right?
我的意思是，我可以想象三四年后的某个时间，早起并在日落后三小时内上床睡觉的协议将利用所有其他协议，对吗？
You're going to exercise, you're going to do it at that time, you're going to eat, you're going to do it at that time, you're going to socialize, you're going to do it at that time.
你要去锻炼，你那个时候就要做，你要去吃饭，你那个时候就要做，你要去社交，你那个时候就要做。
And in doing so, you're also avoiding a lot of the issues related to disrupted sleep.
这样做，您还可以避免许多与睡眠中断相关的问题。
Satchin Panda: So that's why all these things, as you said, time-restricted feeding is just one aspect of the circadian health, and these are all interconnected.
Satchin Panda：这就是为什么所有这些事情，正如你所说，限时喂养只是昼夜节律健康的一方面，而这些都是相互关联的。
And going back to the comment about within three hours of sunset, yes, that's good.
回到关于日落后三个小时内的评论，是的，这很好。
But then what happens in, say, Toronto or Vancouver in wintertime?
但是，比如说，多伦多或温哥华的冬天会发生什么？
Andrew Huberman: I guess they're going to bed very early, but also waking up very early.
Andrew Huberman：我猜他们会很早就睡觉，但也会很早起床。
One of the things that I hear all the time because I'm always beating on the drum of getting morning sunlight, even if through cloud cover, is people say there's no sun here this time of year.
我一直听到的一件事是，因为我总是鼓吹要获得早晨的阳光，即使是透过云层，人们说一年中的这个时候这里没有阳光。
And forgive me, but there is sun.
And forgive me, but there is sun.
Unless you live in a cave, there's sun.
Unless you live in a cave, there's sun.
It's just coming through cloud cover.
It's just coming through cloud cover.
No matter where you live in the world, there's sun.
无论你住在世界的哪个地方，都有阳光。
Unless you live in a cave, of course.
Unless you live in a cave, of course.
So I want to make sure that we didn't overlook what was the major conclusion of the firefighter study.
所以我想确保我们没有忽视消防员研究的主要结论。
Satchin Panda: We'll go back to the firefighter study.
Satchin Panda：我们回到消防员研究。
So the reason why we did this study was, as I said, there are a lot of us who are living the lifestyle of firefighters or shift workers, and shift workers are excluded from studies.
所以我们做这项研究的原因是，正如我所说，我们很多人都过着消防员或轮班工人的生活方式，而轮班工人被排除在研究之外。
So that means whatever we are learning about lifestyle or even medications that may be beneficial for people who actually have a normal schedule, but not for people who have a disrupted schedule.
因此，这意味着我们所了解的有关生活方式甚至药物的任何知识可能对那些实际上有正常作息时间的人有益，但对那些作息时间被打乱的人却没有好处。
And if you look up clinicaltrial.gov there are more than 400,000 studies listed.
如果你查一下 ClinicalTrial.gov，就会发现列出了超过 400,000 项研究。
And if you search how many studies are on shift workers, it's less than 1000.
如果你搜索一下有多少关于轮班工人的研究，你会发现不到 1000 项。
And then if you ask, most of them are to see what is wrong with shift workers, like, that's how we know that shift work increases our risk for metabolic disease, cancer, and even some aspects of dementia.
然后如果你问的话，他们中的大多数人都会看看轮班工人出了什么问题，比如，这就是我们如何知道轮班工作会增加我们患代谢疾病、癌症，甚至某些方面的痴呆症的风险。
But if you ask how many studies are done to improve the health of shift workers alone, that's less than 50.
但如果你问有多少研究是为了改善轮班工人的健康而进行的，那么这个数字还不到 50 项。
I have to go back and check the actual number, but it's less than 50.
我得回去查一下实际数字，但还不到50个。
Andrew Huberman: Wow.
安德鲁·休伯曼：哇。
Satchin Panda: So that's why we got super excited.
Satchin Panda：这就是我们非常兴奋的原因。
We thought from a circadian rhythm perspective, that's something to address.
我们从昼夜节律的角度认为，这是需要解决的问题。
So this study, again, this kind of study is only possible because I'm at Salk and we are affiliated with UCSD, and I can work with UCSD physicians to do this study.
所以这项研究，再说一次，这种研究之所以可能，是因为我在索尔克，我们隶属于加州大学圣地亚哥分校，我可以与加州大学圣地亚哥分校的医生合作进行这项研究。
So I collaborate with Dr. Pam Taub, who is the director of Cardiac Rehab center in UCSD, and Pam has many firefighters as her patients, and we both know that the number one cause of death and disability on work for firefighters is not fighting fire, but just getting heart attack and stroke.
因此，我与 UCSD 心脏康复中心主任 Pam Taub 博士合作，Pam 的病人中有很多消防员，我们都知道，消防员在工作中死亡和残疾的首要原因不是救火，而是心脏病和中风。
So they have a very high incidence of heart attack and stroke.
所以他们心脏病和中风的发病率非常高。
And they're also highly prone to different kinds of cancer.
而且他们也很容易患上不同类型的癌症。
And it may be difficult to ascribe cancer to disruption, circadian disruption, because they're also exposed to a lot of toxins.
而且可能很难将癌症归因于昼夜节律紊乱，因为它们也暴露在大量毒素中。
Anytime a fire burns, that smell of fire is essentially the smell of carcinogens.
每当火灾发生时，火的气味本质上就是致癌物质的气味。
And they're breathing, even if they have the hood on and respirator, they still get it.
他们正在呼吸，即使他们戴着头罩和呼吸器，他们仍然会受到影响。
So the idea was very simple.
So the idea was very simple.
We know that nearly 70% of firefighters in the U.S., full-time firefighters — because there are volunteer firefighters, and then full-time firefighters — the full-time firefighters, 70% of them work 24-hour shifts.
我们知道美国近70%的消防员是全职消防员——因为有志愿消防员，然后是全职消防员——全职消防员，其中70%是24小时轮班的。
So, for example, in San Diego, their shift is from 8:00 a.m.
例如，在圣地亚哥，他们的轮班时间是从上午 8:00 开始。
to 8:00 a.m.
至上午 8:00
the next day.
第二天。
And they do, at least in San Diego, they do one day on, one day off, on, off, four cycles, and then four days off.
他们确实这样做了，至少在圣地亚哥，他们每天工作，休息一天，工作，休息，四个周期，然后休息四天。
But in some fire departments, they actually do a 48-hour shift.
但在一些消防部门，他们实际上实行 48 小时轮班制。
So they come for two days, two days off, two days, two days off, and then four or five days off.
所以他们来了两天，休息两天，两天，休息两天，然后休息四五天。
Andrew Huberman: Brutal.
安德鲁·休伯曼：残酷。
Thank you, firefighters.
Thank you, firefighters.
Satchin Panda: Yeah.
萨钦熊猫：是的。
So then the idea was, okay, so we'll screen firefighters and then find firefighters who are metabolically unhealthy, and then we'll see whether they can actually follow 10-hours time-restricted eating.
所以我们的想法是，好吧，所以我们会筛选消防员，然后找到新陈代谢不健康的消防员，然后我们会看看他们是否真的可以遵循 10 小时的限时饮食。
Because the point is, if firefighters can follow it, then everybody else should be with all that stress, if they can.
因为关键是，如果消防员能够遵循它，那么其他人都应该承受所有压力（如果可以的话）。
And this is, again, where I should also acknowledge the San Diego Fire and Rescue Department, because without their help, we could not have even submitted the grant.
在这里，我还应该感谢圣地亚哥消防和救援部门，因为没有他们的帮助，我们甚至无法提交拨款。
And at that time, David Picone, who is their health-and-wellness battalion chief, he's the one who actually approached us because he's very careful.
当时，他们的健康与保健营长大卫·皮科内（David Picone）是真正接触我们的人，因为他非常小心。
He knew that the job that they do makes them weaker in the long term and can kill them in the long term.
他知道他们所做的工作从长远来看会让他们变得更弱，并且从长远来看可能会杀死他们。
So he was always looking for new solutions.
So he was always looking for new solutions.
So he approached us, and then we said, this is the idea.
所以他找到我们，然后我们说，这就是主意。
He said, well, I love this idea because we are not asking them to sleep more or we are not going to cut down their overtime or shift or change the work schedule.
他说，嗯，我喜欢这个想法，因为我们不会要求他们多睡觉，也不会减少他们的加班时间、轮班或改变工作安排。
The only thing we'll be doing is ask them to eat within 10 hours.
我们唯一要做的就是要求他们在 10 小时内吃饭。
And hopefully we can do this consistently.
And hopefully we can do this consistently.
Andrew Huberman: Between the days that they're working and not working.
Andrew Huberman：在他们工作和不工作的日子之间。
Satchin Panda: Yes.
萨钦熊猫：是的。
Andrew Huberman: So that means if they're from 8:00 a.m.
Andrew Huberman：这意味着如果他们从上午 8:00 开始
to 8:00 a.m., working, then they go home, then they're going to eat on the same schedule they did when they were at the firehouse, but while at home.
到早上 8:00，工作，然后回家，然后他们将按照在消防站时的相同时间表吃饭，但是是在家里。
So they're not allowing themselves to deviate from that.
所以他们不允许自己偏离这一点。
Satchin Panda: Yeah.
萨钦熊猫：是的。
So we thought whether they can do it or not, because the number one goal or the primary outcome in this clinical trial was feasibility, can they do it?
所以我们就想他们能不能做，因为这个临床试验的首要目标或者说主要结果是可行性，他们能做吗？
And then the second was, if they do it, then what happens to their blood sugar and weight and all this other stuff?
第二个问题是，如果他们这样做，那么他们的血糖、体重和所有其他东西会发生什么？
And then we started the study and we hit the next hurdle.
然后我们开始研究，并遇到了下一个障碍。
And that is firefighters are a very tight-knit community, and they want to make sure that you understand their culture.
那就是消防员是一个非常紧密的社区，他们希望确保您了解他们的文化。
And the best way to understand their culture is to live the life of a firefighter.
了解他们的文化的最好方法就是过消防员的生活。
So Emily Manoogian, who is the first author, and then we had Adina Jadorian, who is now in med school, she was a research coordinator at that time.
第一作者艾米丽·马努吉安 (Emily Manoogian)，然后是现在在医学院就读的阿迪娜·贾多里安 (Adina Jadorian)，她当时是一名研究协调员。
They volunteered.
他们是自愿的。
They said, okay, we'll go to the busiest fire station in San Diego and we'll live the life of a firefighter.
他们说，好吧，我们去圣地亚哥最繁忙的消防站，过消防员的生活。
And the San Diego Fire and Rescue and the city, they all agreed.
圣地亚哥消防救援队和这座城市，他们都同意。
They reported for duty at 7:30 in the morning.
They reported for duty at 7:30 in the morning.
They were assigned a bed in the station because all fire stations do have some beds for firefighters to rest.
他们在车站里被分配了一张床位，因为所有消防局都有一些床位供消防员休息。
And they have assigned beds.
And they have assigned beds.
So they were assigned a bed.
So they were assigned a bed.
Yeah.
是的。
So every time a 911 call came, and if that fire station, in that fire station, that fire engine was called, then just like other firefighters, they had to run, get into the gears, just the shoes and a jacket and the helmet, and get into the seat and attend the call.
因此，每次接到 911 电话时，如果那个消防局、那个消防局、那个消防车被叫来，那么就像其他消防员一样，他们必须跑起来，换上装备，只穿鞋子、夹克和头盔，然后坐到座位上参加呼叫。
Of course, they won't go to the site.
Of course, they won't go to the site.
They just get out of the truck, wait there and come back.
他们只是下了卡车，在那里等然后回来。
So in that 24 hours, Emily got 10 calls at night that she had to run to.
因此，在那 24 小时内，Emily 晚上接到了 10 个电话，她不得不跑过去接听。
But there are more than 10 times, every time the 911 call comes, then there is a beep that goes out.
但有超过10次，每次911电话打来，然后就会发出嘟嘟声。
All firefighters who are sleeping or resting, they would get up, or if they're doing something, they would look up to see which engine is called.
所有正在睡觉或休息的消防员都会起床，或者如果他们正在做某事，他们会抬头看看哪个引擎被呼叫了。
Andrew Huberman: Interesting.
安德鲁·休伯曼：有趣。
So it's not just the ones that go out.
So it's not just the ones that go out.
Everyone gets woken up.
每个人都会被吵醒。
Satchin Panda: Everyone gets woken up.
Satchin Panda：每个人都醒了。
So that means in a night, a typical night, they're waking up 10, 15, 20 times sometimes.
这意味着在一个晚上，一个典型的夜晚，他们有时会醒来 10 次、15 次、20 次。
So they're almost like, new moms are like firefighters because they don't have any idea what time the baby will cry and for what reason.
所以她们几乎就像，新妈妈们就像消防员一样，因为她们不知道宝宝什么时候会哭以及出于什么原因。
Also, they don't know.
而且，他们也不知道。
So similarly, that's what Emily did.
So similarly, that's what Emily did.
And then next morning when she came back--
And then next morning when she came back--
Andrew Huberman: --She was like, no, grad school seems easy?
安德鲁·休伯曼：——她说，不，研究生院似乎很容易？
Satchin Panda: Yeah.
萨钦熊猫：是的。
Then we did the study, and we essentially assigned all the firefighters.
然后我们进行了研究，我们基本上分配了所有消防员。
We recruited 150 firefighters.
We recruited 150 firefighters.
We assigned half of them to a Mediterranean diet because you cannot do any harm.
我们将其中一半的人安排为地中海饮食，因为这样不会造成任何伤害。
You have to give them something good.
You have to give them something good.
So that's another thing.
所以那是另一回事了。
They said, no, we want something that we know works for firefighters.
他们说，不，我们想要一些我们知道对消防员有用的东西。
And there was a Mediterranean diet study.
还有一项地中海饮食研究。
So everybody was supposed to follow a Mediterranean diet, and then half, nearly 75 of them were supposed to eat within 10 hours.
所以每个人都应该遵循地中海饮食，然后其中一半，近 75 人应该在 10 小时内进食。
We did not fix the 10 hours because we said, you pick your own 10 hours that you can stick to.
我们没有固定 10 小时，因为我们说过，你可以选择自己可以坚持的 10 小时。
Andrew Huberman: But it has to be consistent from day to day.
Andrew Huberman：但它必须每天保持一致。
So if you start eating at 9:00 a.m.
因此，如果您在上午 9:00 开始吃饭
You finish it at 7:00 p.m.
你在晚上 7:00 完成它。
Satchin Panda: And then try to be, try to be consistent, because we said, yes, we understand that there will be some things, and you can take maybe half an hour here and there, and we'll see how many times you can do it.
Satchin Panda：然后尝试保持一致，因为我们说过，是的，我们知道会有一些事情，你可以在这里或那里花半个小时，我们会看看你能做多少次。
And what was interesting was, although they were all doing a 24-hour shift, they more or less chose to begin eating somewhere between 8:00 a.m.
有趣的是，虽然他们都是 24 小时轮班，但他们或多或少选择在早上 8:00 之间的某个地方开始吃饭。
and 11:00 a.m.
和上午 11:00
and they did not skip any meal.
他们没有不吃任何一餐。
They had their first meal, or what we call breakfast, but it was several hours after waking up, because they are waking up at 5 or 6, and they're driving to come to work at 7:30 or 8, and they're eating the first meal, say, between 8 and 11, and then the final meal 10 hours later.
他们吃第一顿饭，或者我们所说的早餐，但那是在起床后几个小时，因为他们在 5 点或 6 点起床，然后在 7:30 或 8 点开车去上班，他们吃第一顿饭，比如说 8 点到 11 点之间，然后在 10 小时后吃最后一餐。
And what we found is more or less, most of them could stick to doing this at least five days out of seven days.
我们发现，大多数人或多或少都能坚持在 7 天中至少有 5 天这样做。
And then at the end of the study, when we look at their health parameters, one thing is, as I said, we recruited everybody who came.
然后在研究结束时，当我们查看他们的健康参数时，正如我所说，有一件事是我们招募了所有来的人。
So that means nearly one in three firefighters were completely healthy.
这意味着近三分之一的消防员完全健康。
They had no sign of any illness, no high blood pressure, high blood sugar or high cholesterol, depression or anything.
他们没有任何疾病的迹象，没有高血压、高血糖或高胆固醇、抑郁症或任何其他疾病。
So since we have one-third of the population who are already healthy, and then everybody has slightly different conditions.
由于我们有三分之一的人口已经健康，所以每个人的情况都略有不同。
Some have high blood pressure, but they don't have high blood glucose.
有些人患有高血压，但他们没有高血糖。
Somebody has high blood glucose but not high blood pressure.
有人患有高血糖，但没有高血压。
So it was kind of heterogeneous.
所以它有点异质。
So we did not see a big difference in weight loss or any weight change between these two groups.
因此，我们没有看到这两组之间的体重减轻或体重变化有很大差异。
Another thing is the firefighters actually run almost eight to nine miles when they're at the job because that's part of their exercise routine.
另一件事是，消防员在工作时实际上会跑近八到九英里，因为这是他们日常锻炼的一部分。
But then one thing that changed significantly in the time-restricted eating group was what we call the LDL particle size and particle number, because this is something that we know.
但在限时饮食组中发生显着变化的一件事是我们所说的低密度脂蛋白颗粒大小和颗粒数量，因为这是我们知道的。
This very low-density lipoprotein, these are atherogenic, and if we can manage them much better, then we reduce the risk for atherosclerosis.
这种极低密度脂蛋白是致动脉粥样硬化的，如果我们能够更好地管理它们，那么我们就可以降低动脉粥样硬化的风险。
So that's one parameter that changed in the time-restricted feeding group, even when we combine all healthy, unhealthy, everybody.
因此，即使我们将所有健康的、不健康的所有人都结合在一起，这也是限时喂养组中发生变化的一个参数。
Now, if we take firefighters who were beginning with high blood pressure, then we saw a significant reduction in their systolic as well as diastolic blood pressure.
现在，如果我们以患有高血压的消防员为例，那么我们会发现他们的收缩压和舒张压均显着降低。
And the change in blood pressure, of course, we don't claim that in the manuscript, but when we talk about it, some physician would get up and say, wow, that looks like almost they're on a blood-pressure lowering drug.
当然，我们在手稿中没有提到血压的变化，但是当我们谈论它时，一些医生会站起来说，哇，看起来他们几乎正在服用降血压药物。
So the extent of blood pressure lowering is equivalent to somebody taking an antihypertensive drug.
所以血压降低的程度相当于服用降压药。
Andrew Huberman: Amazing.
安德鲁·休伯曼：太棒了。
Satchin Panda: Yeah.
萨钦熊猫：是的。
And then those who started with high blood sugar, of course, we didn't have too many type 2 diabetic, but there were very few prediabetic, and they could better manage their blood glucose.
然后那些一开始就血糖高的人，当然我们没有太多2型糖尿病，但是糖尿病前期的很少，他们可以更好地管理血糖。
And this is interesting because once shift workers become prediabetic or diabetic, they have more difficulty managing their blood sugar than nonshift workers because the work schedule itself will mess them up too much.
这很有趣，因为一旦轮班工人成为糖尿病前期或糖尿病患者，他们比不轮班工人更难以控制血糖，因为工作安排本身就会把他们搞得一团糟。
Even if they're on many medications, they have difficulty.
即使他们服用多种药物，他们也有困难。
Andrew Huberman: That's fascinating, and I'm really glad that you explained the study in such detail, because I would have thought from reading the abstract, and I did look at the data, but if someone were to look at the abstract, they'd say, oh, firefighters.
安德鲁·休伯曼：这很有趣，我真的很高兴你如此详细地解释了这项研究，因为我会通过阅读摘要来思考，而且我确实查看了数据，但如果有人查看摘要，他们会说，哦，消防员。
So they're waking up in the middle of the night and they're throwing on their gear and going out to calls and doing, but if I understand correctly, all firefighters are being woken up by the signal, which makes the firefighter population a bit more similar to the more standard population who's waking up in the middle of the night to use the bathroom, getting on social media for a couple of minutes or flipping on the lights.
所以他们在半夜醒来，穿戴好装备出去接电话，做一些事情，但如果我理解正确的话，所有消防员都会被信号叫醒，这使得消防员群体与更标准的群体更加相似，他们在半夜醒来上厕所，上社交媒体几分钟或打开灯。
I mean, it's maybe not as severe as what firefighters are doing, but we know there are blood sugar regulation issues related to those multiple middle of the night wakings, especially if people are then staring at screens.
我的意思是，这可能不像消防员所做的那么严重，但我们知道，多次半夜醒来会带来血糖调节问题，特别是当人们盯着屏幕时。
So I think it's really important that people were able to hear about the deeper contours of the study.
所以我认为人们能够了解这项研究的更深层次的轮廓非常重要。
I mean, this result of regulating blood sugar better is really powerful.
我的意思是，这种更好地调节血糖的结果确实很强大。
I get asked all the time, I've got a new kid, or I'm a shift worker, how can I do this morning sunlight viewing?
总是有人问我，我有了一个新孩子，或者我是一名轮班工人，我该如何在早上观看阳光？
What I'm hearing is that keeping a regular meal schedule every day, at least five out of seven or as close to every day, it's sort of like sleep.
我听到的是，每天保持有规律的用餐时间表，至少七分之五或接近每天，这有点像睡眠。
I always say, try and get a really great night's sleep 80% or more of the nights of your life.
我总是说，在你一生中 80% 或更多的夜晚里，努力睡个好觉。
And on the other 20%, hopefully it's for fun reasons, a great party or something like that, or a celebration of some sort.
另外 20%，希望是出于有趣的原因、一场盛大的聚会或类似的事情，或者某种庆祝活动。
That seems to me a great anchor point when one can't reliably control their sleep-wake cycle.
在我看来，当一个人无法可靠地控制自己的睡眠-觉醒周期时，这似乎是一个很好的锚点。
Does that mean that if somebody is coming off of shift work and they're very, very tired, that they would be better off staying awake and eating than sleeping?
这是否意味着，如果有人下班后非常非常疲倦，那么他们最好保持清醒和吃饭，而不是睡觉？
Satchin Panda: Well?
萨钦熊猫：嗯？
Yeah.
是的。
So this is where we get into nuances.
这就是我们要讨论的细微差别。
So here the firefighters are 24-hour shift workers.
所以这里的消防员都是24小时轮班的。
So that means, and they have been working the shift for a very long time.
这意味着，他们已经轮班工作很长时间了。
So they have figured out one thing is, yes, firefighters are different from nurses and healthcare workers who have to work throughout the night and they're staying awake throughout the night.
所以他们发现一件事是，是的，消防员不同于护士和医护人员，后者必须整夜工作，而且他们整晚都保持清醒。
Whereas firefighters get an opportunity to sleep.
而消防员则有机会睡觉。
Even with their 10 calls, they actually have an opportunity to come back and go to sleep.
即使打了 10 个电话，他们实际上还有机会回来睡觉。
And in fact, when Emily and Adina, they were in the fire station, what they observed was firefighters, after attending a call, they were not coming back and playing cards or trying to watch the news or get the score.
事实上，当艾米丽和阿迪娜在消防局时，他们观察到的是消防员，在接到电话后，他们并没有回来打牌或试图看新闻或获取分数。
They know they will just go back and lie in bed and switch off the light.
他们知道他们会回去躺在床上并关掉灯。
So whenever they got any opportunity to sleep, they would try to sleep.
所以只要有睡觉的机会，他们就会想办法睡觉。
So in that way, their sleep debt and sleep pressure during daytime is not as strong as a night shift nurse or a truck driver who is driving all night, because they are staying awake throughout the night.
这样一来，他们白天的睡眠债和睡眠压力就不像夜班护士或通宵开车的卡车司机那么严重，因为他们整夜都保持清醒。
So when people say, yes, you found this, and can you extend it to other shift workers?
因此，当人们说，是的，你发现了这一点，你能将其推广到其他轮班工人吗？
My answer is no. We have to go back and figure out, that's why we went to this station and figured out what would work for them.
我的答案是否定的。我们必须回去弄清楚，这就是为什么我们来到这个车站并找出对他们有用的方法。
If I have to go and do this for some nurses, maybe even I will go, or our staff will go and figure out what is their work schedule, what happens?
如果我必须去为一些护士做这件事，也许我也会去，或者我们的员工会去弄清楚他们的工作时间表，会发生什么？
Do they have an opportunity to eat?
他们有机会吃饭吗？
Do they have an opportunity to even take a five-minute break?
他们有机会休息五分钟吗？
What do they do during break?
休息时他们做什么？
And all of these things come into play.
所有这些事情都会发挥作用。
But here another thing is, I always said that in other time-restricted feeding papers, we see a change in nutrition, quality and quantity.
但这里另一件事是，我总是说，在其他限时喂养论文中，我们看到营养、质量和数量的变化。
But here we also saw that somehow both groups inadvertently improved their nutrition quality because everybody was told to eat a Mediterranean diet.
但在这里我们也看到，不知何故，两组人都无意中提高了他们的营养质量，因为每个人都被告知要吃地中海饮食。
They increased their fruits and vegetables and olive oil intakes slightly.
他们略微增加了水果、蔬菜和橄榄油的摄入量。
And when they had to stop eating early, they also reduced their alcohol intake.
当他们不得不提早停止进食时，他们也会减少酒精摄入量。
And this is very significant because many shift workers, just to cope with the shift work, tend to depend on alcohol at night and caffeine in the morning.
这是非常重要的，因为许多轮班工人为了应对轮班工作，往往会在晚上依赖酒精，在早上依赖咖啡因。
So they begin their day with caffeine and end with alcohol.
因此，他们以咖啡因开始新的一天，以酒精结束新的一天。
And now we can relate that many normal people who are not doing shift work, we also more or less begin our day with caffeine, and many of us end with alcohol.
现在我们可以说，许多不轮班工作的正常人，我们或多或少也以咖啡因开始新的一天，而我们中的许多人以酒精结束一天。
And then when they reduce that eating to 10 hours, and then we saw a significant reduction in alcohol intake in the time-restricted eating group, but not in the standard of care or Mediterranean diet group.
然后，当他们将进食时间减少到 10 小时时，我们发现限时饮食组的酒精摄入量显着减少，但标准护理组或地中海饮食组的酒精摄入量却没有显着减少。
Andrew Huberman: I certainly support that.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我当然支持这一点。
We did an episode on alcohol, and I was shocked when I researched that to learn that zero to two drinks per week is essentially the threshold beyond which you start seeing health deficits, in particular, cancers and metabolic disruption, sleep disruption, and increased anxiety when people aren't under the influence of alcohol.
我们做了一集关于酒精的节目，当我研究发现每周喝零到两杯酒基本上是一个阈值，超过这个阈值你就会开始看到健康缺陷，特别是癌症和代谢紊乱、睡眠紊乱，以及当人们没有受到酒精影响时焦虑增加。
I mean, it's pretty incredible how alcohol has kind of escaped as the opposite of caffeine, and therefore not a health hazard.
我的意思是，酒精以与咖啡因相反的方式逸出，因此不会对健康造成危害，这真是令人难以置信。
Here.
这里。
I'm somebody, I have a drink every once in a while.
我是个大人物，偶尔喝一杯。
No big deal for me.
对我来说没什么大不了的。
I can have it or not have it.
我可以拥有它，也可以不拥有它。
But it's just striking how alcohol, despite extensive data that it can really disrupt health, even at three drinks per week, is just avidly consumed, as if it was kind of like food or caffeine.
但令人震惊的是，尽管大量数据表明酒精确实会损害健康，即使每周喝三杯，但人们却如此狂热地消费酒精，就好像它有点像食物或咖啡因一样。
It's really incredible.
实在是太不可思议了。
I want to make sure that I circle back to something you mentioned earlier, because I know there are going to be a number of people that asked this.
我想确保我回到你之前提到的事情，因为我知道会有很多人问这个问题。
If I recall, you said that provided that the feeding window is not shorter than eight hours, that men, women and children can use time-restricted feeding.
我记得你说过，只要喂奶窗口不短于八小时，男女老少都可以采用限时喂奶。
Satchin Panda: Well, yeah.
Satchin 熊猫：嗯，是的。
So what I say is 12 hours.
所以我说的是12小时。
Andrew Huberman: Excuse me, 12 hours.
Andrew Huberman：对不起，12 小时。
Satchin Panda: Thank you for that clarification, because we did a study that was published in 2015, and again, behind many of our studies, there is a story.
Satchin Panda：谢谢您的澄清，因为我们在 2015 年发表了一项研究，同样，我们的许多研究背后都有一个故事。
So we are publishing all these mouse stories.
所以我们要出版所有这些老鼠的故事。
And then I would go to conferences, and then, of course, some people would give me a look saying, well, you must be doing something wrong.
然后我会去参加会议，然后，当然，有些人会看我一眼，说，好吧，你一定做错了什么。
This just breaks the second law of thermodynamics, because how come they're eating the same number of calories and not gaining weight?
这违反了热力学第二定律，因为为什么他们摄入相同数量的卡路里而体重却没有增加呢？
Of course, by that time, we figured out that, at least in mouse, time-restricted feeding also changes the gut microbiome in a way that the mice may be pooping out a little bit more fat and sugar than absorbing them.
当然，到那时，我们发现，至少在小鼠中，限时喂养也会改变肠道微生物组，导致小鼠排泄的脂肪和糖可能比吸收的多一些。
So one thing that happens in time-restricted eating, at least in mice, is their liver cholesterol metabolism to bile acid, and bile acid's excretion in the gut changes because the gut microbiome changes.
因此，在限时饮食中发生的一件事，至少在小鼠中，是它们的肝脏胆固醇代谢为胆汁酸，并且由于肠道微生物群的变化，胆汁酸在肠道中的排泄也发生了变化。
So this is a very nice study.
所以这是一项非常好的研究。
When Amir Zarrinpar was in the lab, now he has his own lab in UCSD, and he meticulously did that.
当 Amir Zarrinpar 在实验室时，现在他在 UCSD 拥有自己的实验室，他一丝不苟地做着这件事。
And we even did bomb calorimetry from the poop and metabolomics from the poop.
我们甚至对粪便进行了炸弹热量测定和粪便代谢组学研究。
And then we figured out that they excrete some calories and then their brown fat activity goes up.
然后我们发现它们会排出一些卡路里，然后它们的棕色脂肪活性就会上升。
So they may be burning some of these extra calories.
所以他们可能会燃烧一些额外的卡路里。
Andrew Huberman: So they're more thermogenic.
Andrew Huberman：所以它们更产热。
Satchin Panda: More thermogenic.
Satchin Panda：更产热。
But anyway, one nice, awesome thing about Salk is if they see that your science is going well, then they will find ways to help you, and this is perfect.
但无论如何，索尔克的一个美好而令人敬畏的事情是，如果他们看到你的科学进展顺利，那么他们会找到方法来帮助你，这是完美的。
And this is when Bill Brody was our president.
那是比尔·布罗迪担任我们总统的时候。
He was the president of Hopkins for 12 years, and then he was the president, and at that time he had started this innovation grant program, which was funded by Irwin Jacobs.
他担任霍普金斯大学校长12年，然后担任校长，当时他就启动了这个创新资助计划，该计划是由欧文·雅各布斯（Irwin Jacobs）资助的。
Irwin is the founder of Qualcomm and was also on the faculty at UCSD.
欧文是高通公司的创始人，也是加州大学圣地亚哥分校的教员。
So he understands there are very few tech leaders who actually spend some time in academia, so he understood the pain of getting grant money.
所以他知道很少有技术领导者真正在学术界花过一些时间，所以他理解获得资助的痛苦。
When you have some interesting idea or test some idea.
当你有一些有趣的想法或测试一些想法时。
Andrew Huberman: No knock on the NIH, but I'll do it anyway because I sit in the study section for the NIH.
Andrew Huberman：无意攻击 NIH，但无论如何我都会这样做，因为我坐在 NIH 的研究部分。
NIH wants to see proposals for things that are so certain to work that they're mostly done.
美国国立卫生研究院希望看到那些肯定有效、基本上已经完成的事情的提案。
And so really groundbreaking work can happen and does happen with NIH funding.
因此，真正具有开创性的工作是可以发生的，而且在 NIH 的资助下确实可以发生。
But more often than not, it is the generosity of philanthropists like Irwin Jacobs and other people that allow the really pioneering the new stuff, the cool stuff, the groundbreaking stuff, the stuff that really, no, I'm not going to say really matters.
但通常情况下，正是像欧文·雅各布斯（Irwin Jacobs）这样的慈善家和其他人的慷慨，才使得真正开创性的新东西、很酷的东西、开创性的东西，以及那些真正，不，我不会说真正重要的东西。
It all matters.
这一切都很重要。
It's all important.
这都很重要。
Satchin Panda: It matters, but it's high risk.
Satchin Panda：这很重要，但风险很高。
And NIH is not just, the government is not making money from thin air, it's taxpayers' money, so there is a little bit of responsibility to conserve that, okay, so we should not waste taxpayers' money on pie-in-the-sky kind of projects too much.
NIH 不仅仅是，政府不是凭空赚钱，而是纳税人的钱，所以有一点责任来保存它，好吧，所以我们不应该在天上掉馅饼的项目上浪费太多纳税人的钱。
Andrew Huberman: To be clear, we're not talking about politically conservative, we're talking about scientifically conservative.
安德鲁·休伯曼：需要明确的是，我们不是在谈论政治上的保守派，我们是在谈论科学上的保守派。
You have to be so careful with language nowadays.
现在你必须非常小心语言。
Pretty soon we're just going to sit and stare at one another at the microphones to stay safe.
很快我们就会坐下来对着麦克风互相凝视以确保安全。
So that's interesting.
这很有趣。
Satchin Panda: So then we started this, and then what we did was I had an awesome grad student.
Satchin Panda：所以我们开始了这个，然后我们所做的是我有一个很棒的研究生。
And we got this funding from Irwin.
我们从欧文那里得到了这笔资金。
And also, any philanthropy matters.
而且，任何慈善事业都很重要。
So actually the way we say is, yes, if you give me 50 bucks, then that 50 bucks goes towards buying the gloves and a friend of tubes for one postdoc for maybe seven days.
所以实际上我们的说法是，是的，如果你给我 50 美元，那么这 50 美元将用于为一名博士后购买手套和一个管子朋友，为期大约 7 天。
Andrew Huberman: So true.
安德鲁·休伯曼：确实如此。
I think a lot of people don't realize that 99% of laboratory scientists don't make any money off their discoveries.
我认为很多人没有意识到 99% 的实验室科学家并没有从他们的发现中赚到任何钱。
And even if there is a patentable discovery, typically the divide between the institution and the company that will eventually put that to market is so slim in favor of the others involved that scientists really do this as work of passion, labor of love.
即使有一项可申请专利的发现，通常，机构和最终将其推向市场的公司之间的分歧也很小，有利于其他相关人员，以至于科学家们确实将其视为热情的工作，热爱的劳动。
Satchin Panda: So we came up with this app, My Circadian Clock, at that time, and we took some lessons from tech leaders, particularly from Amazon.
Satchin Panda：所以我们当时想出了这个应用程序“我的昼夜节律时钟”，我们从技术领导者那里吸取了一些经验教训，尤其是亚马逊的经验教训。
One-click checkout, because we thought most nutrition apps actually ask people to detail, describe what they ate, go to their food library, and then portion size.
一键结帐，因为我们认为大多数营养应用程序实际上会要求人们详细说明他们吃了什么，进入他们的食物库，然后询问份量大小。
We said, okay, so we'll just shortcut all of that.
我们说，好吧，所以我们就走捷径吧。
We just asked people to take a picture of the food, open the app, one click, take a picture, second click, and press save, third click.
我们只是要求人们给食物拍照，打开应用程序，单击一下，拍照，第二次单击，然后按“保存”，第三次单击。
And when they saved, the picture actually came to our server, did not stay on their phone, and we asked 156 people who are not shift workers, just regular workers or homemakers, to be part of the study.
当他们保存时，照片实际上来到了我们的服务器，并没有保留在他们的手机上，我们邀请了 156 名不是轮班工人、只是普通工人或家庭主妇的人参与这项研究。
No student was allowed to be part of the study because we know that their lifestyle is like shift workers, and we monitor for three weeks.
没有学生被允许参与这项研究，因为我们知道他们的生活方式就像轮班工人，我们会监测三周。
Here are some nuances, and I want people to understand.
这里有一些细微差别，我希望人们能够理解。
So suppose when somebody is starting to eat at, say, 7:00 a.m.
假设有人在早上 7:00 开始吃饭。
And since they're recording everything, we caught every single thing.
由于他们记录了一切，我们捕捉到了每一件事。
Even if they ate half a cookie, they had to take a picture.
即使他们吃了半块饼干，他们也必须拍照。
And they actually took a picture because it becomes second nature after three or four days that every time they ate something, even if there was a glass of water, they actually took a picture.
他们实际上拍了一张照片，因为三四天后，每次他们吃东西时，即使有一杯水，他们实际上也会拍一张照片，这已经成为第二天性。
Because we asked them to take pictures of everything.
因为我们要求他们给所有东西拍照。
We'll figure out what it is.
我们会弄清楚它是什么。
What is surprising was we found, so the median number of times people eat within a day, 24 hours a day, is actually seven.
令人惊讶的是我们发现，人们一天 24 小时内进食的中位数实际上是 7 次。
So it's not that we are eating three times a day.
所以我们并不是一日三餐。
We actually snack a little bit.
我们实际上吃一点零食。
Andrew Huberman: Seven times per day.
Andrew Huberman：每天七次。
Satchin Panda: Seven times.
Satchin 熊猫：七次。
And there are 10% of people the top decile was eating 12 times a day.
排名前十分之一的人中有 10% 每天吃 12 次。
Andrew Huberman: Wow.
安德鲁·休伯曼：哇。
Satchin Panda: And it makes sense in retrospect, sometimes maybe I'll fall into that seven or eight before I did this study, because getting up, having coffee with cream and sugar is one.
Satchin Panda：现在回想起来，这是有道理的，有时在我做这项研究之前，我可能会陷入七八种情况，因为起床，喝加奶油和糖的咖啡就是其中之一。
And then I ate my breakfast.
然后我吃了早餐。
That's two.
那是两个。
Then I came to the lab and I found that cookie.
然后我来到实验室，发现了那块饼干。
That's three.
那是三个。
Then I went to a meeting, and there was some cookie and something else.
然后我去参加一个会议，有一些饼干和其他东西。
That's another one.
那是另一件事。
Then lunch, and then afternoon, somebody asked me to go out and have a meeting.
然后吃午饭，然后下午，有人约我出去开会。
So if you think about it, it's very normal that we can go seven to eight times, ten times.
所以你想想，我们能去七八次、十次也是很正常的。
But then if we look at what time, say I start breakfast, and as I said, we see that in many people, they'll start at 7:00 one day, then 7:30 another day, then 8:15 another day.
但如果我们看看什么时间开始吃早餐，正如我所说，我们发现很多人会在某一天 7:00 开始，然后另一天 7:30，然后另一天 8:15。
Or they go back to 6:00 a.m.
或者他们回到早上 6:00。
because they had to get up early and go to work.
因为他们必须早起去上班。
So we take all these food data from three weeks and then ask, what is the time when your body system is expecting it to eat?
因此，我们获取三周内的所有这些食物数据，然后问，您的身体系统预计什么时间进食？
Because it kind of averages out.
因为它有点平均。
It's kind of thinking, okay, maybe for you, if you're eating breakfast at, say, somewhere between 6:00 a.m.
这是一种思考，好吧，也许适合你，如果你在早上 6:00 到早上 6:00 之间的某个时间吃早餐。
7:30, 7:45, 8, maybe you are expecting food around 7:00.
7:30、7:45、8，也许您在 7:00 左右等待食物。
Let's forget about 6:15.
让我们忘记 6 点 15 分吧。
That's an outlier.
这是一个异常值。
And then similarly, at the end of the day, if somebody is eating, finishing the last bite or the nightcap, whatever you call it, say one day at 9:00 p.m., 9:30 p.m., 10, 11, 12:30 or 1:00.
同样，在一天结束时，如果有人正在吃东西、吃完最后一口或睡前饮料，无论你怎么称呼它，都可以说是某一天晚上 9:00、晚上 9:30、10、11、12:30 或 1:00。
Let's ignore that 1:00 and 12:30.
我们忽略 1:00 和 12:30。
But still, we got somewhere between 7 to 11:30 for that person over three weeks' time.
但尽管如此，我们还是在三周的时间里为那个人找到了 7 点到 11 点 30 分之间的时间。
So this is how we kind of figure out what is the likelihood that your body will encounter food.
这就是我们如何计算出您的身体遇到食物的可能性的方法。
So when we do that, what we found was that nearly 50% of adults in our study ate for 14 hours, 45 minutes.
当我们这样做时，我们发现我们研究中近 50% 的成年人吃东西的时间为 14 小时 45 分钟。
That window when your body is expecting food.
当你的身体等待食物时的那个窗口。
So it's easy to say that 50% of adults are eating within 15 hours or longer.
所以很容易说 50% 的成年人在 15 小时或更长时间内进食。
Andrew Huberman: Wow.
安德鲁·休伯曼：哇。
And quite frequently throughout.
并且在整个过程中非常频繁。
Satchin Panda: Quite frequently, too.
Satchin Panda：也很频繁。
And then if we ask what fraction of our adults were actually eating the conventional within 12 hours, three meals a day or something like that, it was 10%.
然后，如果我们问有多少成年人实际上在 12 小时内吃传统的食物，一日三餐或类似的食物，答案是 10%。
Andrew Huberman: Snacking has gone up dramatically.
Andrew Huberman：零食数量急剧增加。
However you want to define snacking, the frequency of food intake throughout the day.
无论您想要定义零食，还是全天摄入食物的频率。
Satchin Panda: And outside this breakfast, lunch, and dinner, there are all these small snacks here and there.
Satchin Panda：除了早餐、午餐和晚餐之外，到处都有这些小零食。
And also for a lot of people, the dinner is delayed.
对于很多人来说，晚餐也被推迟了。
And we went back and looked at, okay, so what kind of food people are eating late at night and all that stuff.
我们回过头来看看，好吧，人们在深夜吃什么样的食物等等。
And what came out interesting, which is very counterintuitive, is people who prepare their own dinner, they're more likely to eat later at night because they're coming home, and then they're taking some time to prepare dinner, and then they're sitting down and eating, or maybe they're eating next to the computer, whatever it is.
有趣的是，这是非常违反直觉的，人们自己准备晚餐，他们更有可能在晚上吃得很晚，因为他们要回家，然后他们花一些时间准备晚餐，然后他们坐下来吃饭，或者可能他们在电脑旁边吃饭，无论是什么。
So it's kind of interesting that that came out.
所以它的出现很有趣。
But coming back to your point, that's why I say that nearly 90% of adults are eating for more than 12 hours.
但回到你的观点，这就是为什么我说近 90% 的成年人进食时间超过 12 小时。
So that means a lot of people can, there is scope or there is enough headspace to reduce and eat within.
所以这意味着很多人可以，有范围或有足够的空间来减少和进食。
So as I said, all of these are interrelated.
正如我所说，所有这些都是相互关联的。
So when you think about children, most sleep researchers agree that children and teenagers should sleep somewhere between nine to 10 or 11 hours because young children, even 5-to-10-year-olds, should sleep nine to 10 hours.
因此，当你想到儿童时，大多数睡眠研究人员都认为儿童和青少年应该睡 9 到 10 或 11 小时，因为幼儿，甚至 5 到 10 岁的孩子，应该睡 9 到 10 小时。
Andrew Huberman: They're just pumping out growth hormones and growing, growing, growing.
安德鲁·休伯曼：它们只是分泌生长激素，然后生长、生长、生长。
Satchin Panda: And then the teenagers, actually, the recommendation is they should be sleeping nine hours because if you take teenagers, take out all the stimulatory inputs to them and then remove homework assignment and everything, and then let them kind of equilibrate to their homeostasis, how many hours they're likely to sleep.
Satchin Panda：那么青少年，实际上，建议他们应该睡九个小时，因为如果你带青少年去，去掉对他们的所有刺激输入，然后取消家庭作业和一切，然后让他们平衡自己的体内平衡，他们可能会睡多少小时。
That turns out to be somewhere between eight and a half to nine and a half hours, which also means that going back to sleep, nearly 90% of high school students in this country are chronically sleep deprived because most high school students don't get nine hours of sleep on a regular basis, maybe on the weekend.
事实证明，这个时间在八个半到九个半小时之间，这也意味着，回到睡眠中，这个国家近 90% 的高中生长期睡眠不足，因为大多数高中生没有定期睡眠九个小时，也许在周末。
Andrew Huberman: Probably because of devices, they're on iPads.
Andrew Huberman：可能是因为设备的原因，他们在 iPad 上。
Satchin Panda: And also, as I said, this new idea that midnight is your assignment submission time.
Satchin Panda：而且，正如我所说，这个新想法是午夜是你的作业提交时间。
I'll come back to that again and again.
我会一次又一次地回到这个话题。
Andrew Huberman: I'm hearing that again and again.
Andrew Huberman：我一次又一次听到这样的说法。
So teachers, take note.
所以老师们要注意了。
It's a very interesting idea as a way to kind of anchor behavior earlier in the day.
这是一个非常有趣的想法，可以作为当天早些时候锚定行为的一种方式。
Yeah, learning to, I mean, public health is complicated because people are incentivized by fear.
是的，我的意思是，学习公共卫生很复杂，因为人们受到恐惧的激励。
But you get more bees with honey, as they say, right?
但正如他们所说，用蜂蜜可以吸引更多的蜜蜂，对吗？
There's incentivizing people to wake earlier, not necessarily with the sunrise, but wake earlier and go to sleep earlier and eat within an eight-to-twelve-hour window.
人们会激励人们早起，不一定是在日出时起床，但要早起、早睡，并在八到十二小时内进食。
Twelve if it's children.
如果是小孩子的话就十二个。
Satchin Panda: Yeah.
萨钦熊猫：是的。
Andrew Huberman: It sounds to me like all these health benefits are what I think are going to incentivize people more than, for instance, this idea that, well, if you don't do this, you're going to get dementia or something, right?
安德鲁·胡伯曼：在我看来，所有这些健康益处都比我认为更能激励人们，例如，如果你不这样做，你就会患上痴呆症或其他什么疾病，对吗？
Satchin Panda: Like every day people will feel more healthy and more productive.
Satchin Panda：就像每一天一样，人们会感觉更健康、更有效率。
And so that's why I said that even if children are supposed to sleep for nine hours, of course they're not eating during those nine hours.
所以这就是为什么我说即使孩子们应该睡九个小时，他们当然在这九个小时里不吃东西。
And we are not feeding children and putting them down to sleep because their core body temperature will be high.
我们不会给孩子喂食并让他们入睡，因为他们的核心体温会很高。
They cannot fall asleep.
他们无法入睡。
So at least they should have their last meal one or two hours before going to bed, because typically parents feed them and maybe give them a shower or a bath, and then they read the bedtime story.
因此，至少他们应该在睡觉前一两个小时吃最后一顿饭，因为通常父母会给他们喂食，也许还会给他们洗澡，然后他们会读睡前故事。
So it's one to two hours before bedtime, they're finishing food.
所以在睡觉前一到两个小时，他们正在吃完食物。
Similarly, on the other end, after they wake up.
同样，在另一端，他们醒来后。
It's not that we are waking them up and then feeding them.
我们并不是要叫醒它们然后喂它们。
Hopefully we're not doing that.
希望我们不会这样做。
So that's 12 hours, which seems to be optimum.
所以这是 12 小时，这似乎是最佳时间。
And it's not only I'm saying that if we put all the health recommendations together from pediatrics and then it makes sense.
这不仅仅是我说的，如果我们把儿科的所有健康建议放在一起，那就有意义了。
Andrew Huberman: Fascinating.
安德鲁·休伯曼：令人着迷。
I have a question about structuring meal intake or food intake during the eating window.
我有一个关于在进食窗口期间安排膳食摄入量或食物摄入量的问题。
I have a good friend, actually, he's the neurosurgeon at Neuralink now, but he came up through Stanford and he has a habit of eating, of skipping one meal per day within a feeding window.
事实上，我有一个好朋友，他现在是 Neuralink 的神经外科医生，但他是从斯坦福大学毕业的，他有一个饮食习惯，每天在喂食窗口内不吃一顿饭。
So it might be breakfast, lunch, skip dinner one day, then it might be breakfast, dinner the next day, lunch, and dinner the next one.
因此，一天可能是早餐、午餐、不吃晚餐，然后可能是第二天的早餐、晚餐、下一天的午餐和晚餐。
So it's not in keeping with the same start time always, but the end time is either going to be earlier or there's a gate.
所以它并不总是与相同的开始时间保持一致，但结束时间要么会更早，要么有一个门。
It's never later.
永远都不晚。
What do you think about that as a strategy?
您认为这是一种怎样的策略？
In many ways it feels like that fits with the way that a lot of people's lives run.
从很多方面来说，这感觉都符合很多人的生活方式。
So sometimes, for instance, if I'm on a podcast, I don't tend to eat much during the middle of the day because it makes me a little bit groggy.
所以有时，例如，如果我在播客上，我在中午不会吃太多东西，因为这会让我有点昏昏沉沉。
The postprandial dip in energy.
餐后能量下降。
So I'll do breakfast, well again at 11.
所以我会做早餐，11点再做一次。
That's when I break my fast 11-ish and then dinner, maybe a snack in the middle of the day, but other days it's three meals.
那时我会在11点左右开始禁食，然后吃晚餐，也许是中午的零食，但其他时候是三餐。
So does it matter overall, as long as one isn't allowing the start time and the ending time to drift out?
那么，只要不让开始时间和结束时间出现偏差，总体来说还重要吗？
Is it okay if you go from 12 hours to 10 to eight, eight, 10, four, 12, as long as you don't exceed the brackets?
如果你从 12 小时到 10 小时，再到 8、8、10、4、12 小时，只要不超过括号，可以吗？
Are you okay?
你还好吗？
Satchin Panda: So this is where the circadian aspect comes in.
Satchin Panda：这就是昼夜节律的作用所在。
Because if you're moving that breakfast time or dinner time three, four hours, you're essentially causing maybe a metabolic jet lag.
因为如果你将早餐时间或晚餐时间推迟三、四个小时，你实际上可能会导致代谢时差。
In the short term, in weeks, months, or maybe even a few years, you may not see any change.
在短期内，几周、几个月甚至几年，你可能看不到任何变化。
At the same time, we don't know the long-term consequences.
与此同时，我们不知道长期后果。
One thing is we always think, I'll come back to this point again and again.
一件事是我们总是想，我会一次又一次地回到这一点。
We think that our body weight is a marker of health or body composition is a marker of health.
我们认为体重是健康的标志，或者身体成分是健康的标志。
It's not always true because as I said, acid reflux feeling, having some pang of depression or anxiety or LDL, like high LDL.
这并不总是正确的，因为正如我所说，胃酸反流的感觉，有一些抑郁或焦虑或低密度脂蛋白的痛苦，比如高低密度脂蛋白。
Andrew Huberman: High LDL.
安德鲁·休伯曼：高低密度脂蛋白。
A lot of thin people or low body fat people have very high LDL.
许多瘦人或低体脂人的低密度脂蛋白水平非常高。
Satchin Panda: Yeah.
萨钦熊猫：是的。
So those are the things that we don't connect with our habit.
所以这些都是我们与我们的习惯无关的事情。
And since circadian rhythm and meal timing, meal structure now is a very new field, I think good studies will come out only in a few years, because right now people are just going back and retrospectively looking at some diet record, one day of diet record and trying to glean too much out of it.
由于昼夜节律和进餐时间、膳食结构现在是一个非常新的领域，我认为好的研究几年后才会出现，因为现在人们只是回顾并回顾一些饮食记录，一天的饮食记录，并试图从中收集太多信息。
But I think hopefully things will improve where people become, it will become standard to at least look for one week of diet record meal time and what they're eating, all that stuff.
但我认为希望人们的情况会有所改善，至少寻找一周的饮食记录用餐时间和他们吃的东西，所有这些东西将成为标准。
Because now mouse studies are also showing whether front loading carbohydrate or front loading fat or protein has benefit over, so I think these studies are starting.
因为现在的小鼠研究也表明，前置碳水化合物或前置脂肪或蛋白质是否具有益处，所以我认为这些研究正在开始。
So I should not comment whether that's good or bad.
所以我不应该评论这是好还是坏。
Andrew Huberman: I think it's great to hold off until then.
Andrew Huberman：我认为推迟到那时是件好事。
We'll have you back on to discuss.
我们会让你回来讨论。
I have a question about fasting in the longer term.
我有一个关于长期禁食的问题。
And there it's a near-infinite space we could explore of two days of fasting one day.
这是一个近乎无限的空间，我们可以在一天的两天禁食中探索。
I know people that every once in a while they just decide, I'm fasting.
我知道人们偶尔会决定，我要禁食。
They've either been eating too much at parties or they're not feeling well or whatever, they just decide, I'm fasting for 24 hours, and they'll still consume water and caffeine, but they'll just fast.
他们要么在聚会上吃得太多，要么感觉不舒服，或者其他什么，他们只是决定，我禁食 24 小时，他们仍然会消耗水和咖啡因，但他们只会禁食。
Is there any health benefit or detriment?
对健康有什么好处或坏处吗？
You mentioned the circadian clock-shifting effects, but if somebody wakes up on Sunday and they ate too much, or they feel they ate too much, or they don't like the food they ate on Saturday, they're not really feeling it, and they're just going to fast into Monday.
你提到了昼夜节律时钟转移的影响，但如果有人在周日醒来，吃得太多，或者他们觉得自己吃得太多，或者他们不喜欢周六吃的食物，他们并没有真正的感觉，他们只会禁食到周一。
Is there any known benefit or health detriment to doing that kind of thing?
做这种事情有什么已知的好处或健康危害吗？
Satchin Panda: Yeah, there is actually a rich literature on this complete fast.
Satchin Panda：是的，关于这种完全禁食实际上有丰富的文献。
And in fact, in many religions, people practiced complete fast as a way to cleanse their body.
事实上，在许多宗教中，人们进行彻底禁食作为净化身体的一种方式。
And people have seen that there are benefits to that.
人们已经看到了这样做的好处。
So in fact, the every-other-day eating in mouse model or even in humans, there are also initially some studies were done, there are many health benefits.
所以其实隔日进食在小鼠模型甚至人类身上，也初步做了一些研究，对健康有很多好处。
And right now there are even fasting clinics in Germany where people check in and they're under strict supervision, and then they do a complete fast.
现在德国甚至有禁食诊所，人们在检查后受到严格的监督，然后进行彻底的禁食。
Or maybe a small bowl of soup which has 100, 200 kilocalories.
或者一小碗含有100、200卡路里热量的汤。
And that's all they get to eat sometimes two, three days, four days, five days even.
这就是他们有时两天、三天、四天、甚至五天只能吃的东西。
They have gone up to three or four weeks.
他们已经走了三四个星期了。
Andrew Huberman: For the sake of weight loss.
安德鲁·休伯曼：为了减肥。
Is that why?
是因为这个吗？
Satchin Panda: For many different things.
Satchin Panda：对于很多不同的事情。
And they come out pretty well healthy.
他们出来后非常健康。
Of course, they're under supervision to make sure that they are getting the micronutrients, vitamins and electrolytes.
当然，他们受到监督，以确保他们获得微量营养素、维生素和电解质。
So those studies are pretty solid.
所以这些研究是相当可靠的。
People have observed that.
人们已经观察到了这一点。
And then, in fact, there are even ideas that fasting, this kind of fasting can have a huge impact on the brain, and people may come out of treatment-resistant depression or something.
然后，事实上，甚至有人认为禁食，这种禁食可以对大脑产生巨大的影响，人们可能会摆脱难治性抑郁症之类的情况。
So those studies are very difficult to do.
所以这些研究是很难做的。
There are only cases of one here and there that we hear once in a while.
我们只是偶尔听到这样或那样的案例。
But hopefully in future we'll see whether the depression, anxiety, the mental health aspect, will benefit from fasting.
但希望将来我们能看到禁食是否能改善抑郁、焦虑和心理健康方面的问题。
Because now, as there is more and more evidence that there's this gut-brain axis and whether the presence of food or the microbiome changes in the gut, if they can affect brain, then maybe long-term fasting, periodic fasting, a few days of low-calorie diet back-to-back, will be interesting to see how it impacts brain health.
因为现在，越来越多的证据表明存在肠脑轴，以及食物的存在或肠道中的微生物组是否发生变化，如果它们可以影响大脑，那么长期禁食、定期禁食、连续几天的低热量饮食，看看它如何影响大脑健康将会很有趣。
Andrew Huberman: Very interesting.
安德鲁·休伯曼：非常有趣。
What are your thoughts on fat fasting?
您对脂肪禁食有何看法？
Where people try and limit their blood glucose by only eating mainly fats, mainly healthy...
人们试图通过只吃主要脂肪、主要是健康的脂肪来限制血糖……
typically, they'll eat healthier fats of avocados, olive oils and nuts, and some animal fats, perhaps, but as a way to keep blood glucose low and also time restrict, this goes back to the kind of low-carbohydrate thing.
通常，他们会吃更健康的鳄梨脂肪、橄榄油和坚果，或许还有一些动物脂肪，但作为保持低血糖和时间限制的一种方式，这又回到了低碳水化合物的食物。
What are your thoughts on that as a general strategy for health?
您对此作为健康总体策略有何看法？
I mean, it combines sort of two general themes that are out there, I think, both of which data are still incoming, that restricting the feeding times, it can be beneficial, as well as keeping overall blood glucose lower can be beneficial.
我的意思是，它结合了现有的两个一般主题，我认为这两个数据仍在传入，限制进食时间可能是有益的，并且保持总体血糖较低也可能是有益的。
Satchin Panda: Yeah, I think there is too much emphasis now on blood sugar spiking, or, we don't know, this kind of eating pattern, for example, means we are essentially telling pancreas that, okay, it or the islet cells that produce insulin that is, okay, you can take a break, go on vacation for a month or two or three months.
Satchin Panda：是的，我认为现在过分强调血糖飙升，或者，我们不知道，这种饮食模式，例如，意味着我们本质上是在告诉胰腺，好吧，它或产生胰岛素的胰岛细胞，好吧，你可以休息一下，去度假一个月或两三个月。
My question is, it will be interesting to see what happens to those islets, because, for example, we know that if we disuse or unuse our muscles, there is muscle atrophy, muscles will become weaker.
我的问题是，看看这些胰岛会发生什么会很有趣，因为，例如，我们知道，如果我们不再使用或不使用我们的肌肉，就会出现肌肉萎缩，肌肉会变得更弱。
We don't know whether long-term consequences of this very low-carbohydrate diet, where you are not essentially engaging the islet cells periodically, what is its impact?
我们不知道这种极低碳水化合物饮食的长期后果（基本上不会定期与胰岛细胞接触）会产生什么影响？
So if there is no impact, maybe it's okay, because as you know many people who actually work on a ketogenic diet.
因此，如果没有影响，也许没关系，因为正如你所知，很多人实际上都在进行生酮饮食。
The researchers themselves find it very difficult to stay in a true ketogenic diet because the true ketogenic diet is consuming less than 10% of calories from carbohydrates.
研究人员自己发现保持真正的生酮饮食非常困难，因为真正的生酮饮食消耗的热量不到碳水化合物的 10%。
Andrew Huberman: And not very many from protein.
Andrew Huberman：而且不是很多来自蛋白质。
A lot of people think a ketogenic diet allows them to eat massive amounts of meat, and that's not necessarily the case.
很多人认为生酮饮食可以让他们吃大量的肉，但事实并非如此。
Just one clarification for people.
只是向人们澄清一件事。
Satchin was referring to islet cells of the pancreas, which are the ones that manufacture insulin.
萨钦指的是胰腺的胰岛细胞，它们是制造胰岛素的细胞。
So the question is whether or not taking in low levels of blood glucose by way of a low-carbohydrate diet, those islet cells are going to shut off their production.
所以问题是，是否通过低碳水化合物饮食摄入低水平的血糖，这些胰岛细胞是否会停止生产。
Very interesting.
非常有趣。
I mean, the liver is a very plastic tissue.
我的意思是，肝脏是一个非常可塑的组织。
I mean, it tends to react very dramatically to lifestyle changes.
我的意思是，它往往会对生活方式的改变做出非常剧烈的反应。
Satchin Panda: Yeah.
萨钦熊猫：是的。
So that's why it will be interesting to see what happens.
这就是为什么看看会发生什么会很有趣。
We know that even muscle disuse, for example, people who become bedridden, they lose some muscle mass, but when they come back and exercise, they gain it back.
我们知道，即使肌肉废用，例如卧床不起的人，他们也会失去一些肌肉质量，但当他们回来锻炼时，他们会重新获得肌肉质量。
So it'll be interesting to see what happens in these people who are going through a long-term ketogenic diet.
因此，看看这些长期生酮饮食的人会发生什么，将会很有趣。
And of course, once in a while, because of social pressure or something else, if they don't have access to food or something happens, they may consume some sugar and blood glucose will spike.
当然，偶尔，由于社会压力或其他原因，如果他们无法获得食物或发生某些事情，他们可能会消耗一些糖，血糖就会飙升。
But it's not that every spike is bad.
但这并不是说每一个尖峰都是坏的。
I mean, the reason why we have insulin is for good reason, to buffer that spike, to buffer that spike.
我的意思是，我们使用胰岛素的原因是有充分理由的，为了缓冲那个峰值，缓冲那个峰值。
And also, people always say that, well, if you have insulin produced or insulin-like growth factor, those are really bad, and you should avoid that.
而且，人们总是说，如果你产生了胰岛素或胰岛素样生长因子，那么这些真的很糟糕，你应该避免这种情况。
And I think that's a little bit extreme.
我认为这有点极端。
Andrew Huberman: The insulin growth factor has evolved in muscle protein synthesis, tissue repair, maybe even cognition.
Andrew Huberman：胰岛素生长因子在肌肉蛋白质合成、组织修复、甚至认知方面已经进化。
Satchin Panda: And it also goes back to, say, mTOR activation and all that stuff.
Satchin Panda：这也可以追溯到 mTOR 激活之类的事情。
People get really excited about how to reduce mTOR activation, rapamycin and all that stuff.
人们对如何减少 mTOR 激活、雷帕霉素和所有这些东西感到非常兴奋。
So this is where, again, from a circadian point of view, I ask people to think two very popular drug-like molecules or drugs that people think will increase longevity are metformin, which many people agree, not all will come to a consensus, that it activates AMP kinase, or the sensor in the cells that sense that your cells are fasting.
因此，从昼夜节律的角度来看，我再次要求人们认为两种非常流行的类药物分子或人们认为会延长寿命的药物是二甲双胍，很多人都同意，但并非所有人都会达成共识，它会激活 AMP 激酶，或者细胞中感知细胞禁食的传感器。
So metformin kind of activates it so that you can say, although it may not be scientifically accurate, the fasting in a pill.
因此，二甲双胍可以激活它，因此您可以说，尽管这在科学上可能不准确，但可以说是药丸中的禁食。
Andrew Huberman: So it sort of mimics fasting.
安德鲁·休伯曼：所以它有点模仿禁食。
And the thing I'd lump in there with metformin is that berberine is kind of the poor man's metformin.
我想把黄连素与二甲双胍混为一谈，那就是小檗碱是穷人的二甲双胍。
It's a tree bark extract that also dramatically lowers blood glucose.
它是一种树皮提取物，也能显着降低血糖。
Satchin Panda: It mimics that kind of fasting, and then rapamycin also kind of reduces mTOR activation.
Satchin Panda：它模仿那种禁食，然后雷帕霉素也会减少 mTOR 的激活。
And people have shown that rapamycin and metformin can extend a mouse lifespan and improve health.
人们已经证明雷帕霉素和二甲双胍可以延长小鼠的寿命并改善健康。
So now let's go back to the calorie restriction study that I mentioned.
现在让我们回到我提到的卡路里限制研究。
In calorie restriction, people are giving food as a lump sum and they were essentially doing time restriction.
在热量限制中，人们一次性提供食物，并且基本上是在限制时间。
The mice were doing time restriction.
小鼠进行时间限制。
If we think about it, during daytime, when experimenters are coming to the vivarium, the mice should be sleeping and fasting, and they should naturally have high level of AMP kinase if they are truly fasting.
想想看，白天，当实验人员来到动物饲养场时，小鼠应该是在睡觉和禁食的，如果它们真正禁食的话，它们自然应该有高水平的AMP激酶。
And they should also have a low level of mTOR activity because mTOR responds to insulin and that should go off at night.
而且它们的 mTOR 活性也应该较低，因为 mTOR 对胰岛素有反应，并且应该在晚上消失。
So my suspicion is in many of these experiments where the mice were allowed to eat ad libitum, even normal standard children, now, we know that as mice get older, they actually consume a little bit more.
所以我怀疑在许多这样的实验中，老鼠被允许随意进食，甚至是正常的标准儿童，现在，我们知道随着老鼠年龄的增长，它们实际上会吃得更多。
Andrew Huberman: Food during daytime, which is the equivalent of human night.
Andrew Huberman：白天的食物，相当于人类的夜晚。
Satchin Panda: Humans, nighttime eating.
Satchin Panda：人类，夜间进食。
Andrew Huberman: This is like nighttime eating we know is an issue.
安德鲁·休伯曼：这就像我们知道的夜间饮食是一个问题。
I didn't realize that was more of an issue as people age.
我没有意识到随着人们年龄的增长，这会成为一个更大的问题。
Satchin Panda: Yeah, so we don't know.
Satchin Panda：是的，所以我们不知道。
But at least in mice, because we can put the mice in a calorie metric, look at every single bite they're eating, how much they're eating.
但至少在老鼠身上，因为我们可以把老鼠放在卡路里指标中，看看它们吃的每一口，吃多少。
So I guess it was natural to see that researchers found that there is some mTOR activity during daytime when the mice were not supposed to have mTOR activity because they should be fasting.
所以我想很自然地看到研究人员发现白天有一些 mTOR 活性，而白天小鼠不应该有 mTOR 活性，因为它们应该禁食。
And since they ate a little bit, and were snacking during daytime, AMP kinase activity was not at its peak.
由于他们吃得很少，而且白天吃零食，所以 AMP 激酶活性并未达到峰值。
So giving metformin kind of mimicked their fasting state and reducing mTOR activity by a drug like rapamycin also kind of mimicked some aspect of the fasting state.
因此，给予二甲双胍有点模仿他们的禁食状态，而通过雷帕霉素等药物降低 mTOR 活性也有点模仿禁食状态的某些方面。
So my suspicion is, since these studies were done always in mice who are supposed to be in the fasting state, and both mTOR, sorry, rapamycin and AMP kinase activator metformin kind of are mimicking that fasting state.
所以我的怀疑是，因为这些研究总是在应该处于禁食状态的小鼠中进行，而 mTOR，抱歉，雷帕霉素和 AMP 激酶激活剂二甲双胍都在模仿禁食状态。
That's why we have seen those benefits.
这就是我们看到这些好处的原因。
And it'll be interesting to see if that experiment will be done in humans in the long term, because many people are very excited about if there is a long-term metformin study, and then a lot of people are actually consuming a good amount of rapamycin off level.
从长远来看，这项实验是否会在人类身上进行将会很有趣，因为许多人对是否有一项长期二甲双胍研究感到非常兴奋，然后很多人实际上会服用大量的雷帕霉素。
They can get their own.
他们可以得到自己的。
So that's my curiosity.
这就是我的好奇心。
I'm not saying whether it's good or bad or whether there is science or not.
我并不是说它是好还是坏，或者是否有科学依据。
That's something that will be interesting to control for and see, because recently I saw one of my, again, close friends and colleagues at Scripps, Katja Lamia.
控制和观察这一点将会很有趣，因为最近我再次见到了我在斯克里普斯的一位亲密朋友和同事，Katja Lamia。
She did a very simple, elegant study people should have done in the metformin field.
她做了一项非常简单、优雅的研究，人们应该在二甲双胍领域进行这项研究。
She took mice and then measured their blood glucose at different times of the day.
她拿了老鼠，然后测量它们在一天中不同时间的血糖。
And in fact, just like human blood glucose, our blood glucose fluctuates a little bit.
事实上，就像人类的血糖一样，我们的血糖也会有一点波动。
She saw that rhythm and then every two hours or three hours on different days, of course, she gave the same dose of metformin to mice.
她看到了这种节奏，然后在不同的日子里每隔两个小时或三个小时，当然，她给老鼠注射相同剂量的二甲双胍。
And what she found was at different times of the day, metformin had a very dramatic change in glucose-reducing ability, which means that even if you take metformin and give at different time of the day for the mouse or even for humans, in a very long term, of course, in these mice, these mice were not diabetic or anything, they were healthy mice to begin with.
她发现，在一天中的不同时间，二甲双胍的降糖能力发生了非常显着的变化，这意味着，即使你在一天中的不同时间服用二甲双胍，给小鼠甚至人类服用二甲双胍，当然，从很长一段时间来看，在这些小鼠中，这些小鼠没有糖尿病或任何东西，它们本来就是健康的小鼠。
So in the long term we might see benefits that are very different.
因此，从长远来看，我们可能会看到非常不同的好处。
So this brings to this idea that, well, maybe metformin, say at the end of the day, evening metformin may trigger that fasting state much earlier than end of digestion, whereas metformin in the beginning of the day may not, at least from a longevity perspective.
因此，这就产生了这样的想法，好吧，也许二甲双胍，比如说在一天结束时，晚上二甲双胍可能会比消化结束早得多触发禁食状态，而在一天开始时使用二甲双胍可能不会，至少从长寿的角度来看。
I'm not talking about diabetes, type 2 diabetes here.
我这里说的不是糖尿病，而是2型糖尿病。
So the same thing with mTOR.
mTOR 也是如此。
Is mTOR going to have a much better impact if taken during evening, morning before meal?
如果在晚上、早上饭前服用 mTOR 会产生更好的效果吗？
So these are my thoughts that go along with all this fat story that we talked about.
这些是我的想法，与我们谈论的所有这些胖故事相一致。
Andrew Huberman: Do you take metformin or berberine?
安德鲁·休伯曼：你服用二甲双胍或小檗碱吗？
Satchin Panda: No, I haven't taken it, although I have a close friend and colleague, Reuben Shaw, who is now the director of the Cancer Center at Salk.
Satchin Panda：不，我没有服用，尽管我有一个亲密的朋友和同事，Reuben Shaw，他现在是索尔克癌症中心的主任。
He extensively works on AMP kinase, and so it's always fun to talk to him.
他广泛研究 AMP 激酶，因此与他交谈总是很有趣。
Andrew Huberman: He's a fan.
安德鲁·休伯曼：他是一个粉丝。
Yeah, I've taken berberine before and I have had two different very distinct experiences with them.
是的，我以前服用过小檗碱，并且有过两种截然不同的体验。
First of all, berberine when ingested with carbohydrates, in particular, carbohydrates that have a lot of simple sugars.
首先，小檗碱与碳水化合物一起摄入，特别是含有大量单糖的碳水化合物。
Definitely.
确实。
I know this because I measured my blood glucose.
我知道这一点是因为我测量了我的血糖。
Satchin Panda: I did.
萨钦熊猫：我做到了。
Andrew Huberman: The experiment allows you to flatten out your blood glucose response.
Andrew Huberman：这个实验可以让你的血糖反应变得平坦。
So in some sense there is this idea.
所以从某种意义上来说是有这个想法的。
If you're going to eat a particularly big meal or sugary meal and you don't want to get a massive blood glucose rise, you take berberine or metformin.
如果您要吃特别大的餐或含糖餐，并且不想血糖大幅升高，则可以服用小檗碱或二甲双胍。
Metformin is prescription.
二甲双胍是处方药。
I went with berberine because as far as I know it works as well.
我选择了小檗碱，因为据我所知它也有效。
Satchin Panda: At least for healthy people.
Satchin Panda：至少对于健康人来说是这样。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, for healthy people.
Andrew Huberman：是的，对于健康的人来说。
That's right.
这是正确的。
When I took berberine and did not ingest large amounts of simple sugars or carbohydrates.
当我服用小檗碱并且没有摄入大量单糖或碳水化合物时。
Along with it, I experienced profound hypoglycemia.
与此同时，我还经历了严重的低血糖症。
I felt like complete garbage for about eight hours, and I had one of the worst headaches of my life, which makes sense.
在大约八个小时的时间里，我感觉自己像个垃圾，这是我一生中最严重的头痛之一，这是有道理的。
You just got a blood sugar crash.
你刚刚出现血糖崩溃。
So if you lower your blood sugar when you already have fairly low blood sugar, and you're not ingesting carbohydrates, you can really bottom out your blood glucose.
因此，如果您在血糖已经相当低的情况下降低血糖，并且不摄入碳水化合物，那么您的血糖确实可以触底。
Satchin Panda: So just say--
Satchin Panda：那么就说——
Andrew Huberman: --I say that for two reasons.
安德鲁·休伯曼：——我这么说有两个原因。
One is kind of a cautionary note, and the other one that when you think about the biology of these compounds, it makes perfect sense.
一个是一种警告，另一个是当你考虑这些化合物的生物学特性时，它是完全有道理的。
And I did not pay attention to circadian effects.
而且我没有注意昼夜节律的影响。
Satchin Panda: When I joined Salk.
Satchin Panda：当我加入索尔克时。
We know Ron Evans is kind of the big leader in metabolism, and he works on nuclear hormone receptors.
我们知道罗恩·埃文斯（Ron Evans）是新陈代谢领域的重要领导者，他致力于核激素受体的研究。
These are the master regulator of metabolism in normal cells, cancer cells and many others.
它们是正常细胞、癌细胞和许多其他细胞代谢的主要调节因子。
And what was interesting was in the first few years, Ron did a very simple experiment.
有趣的是，在最初的几年里，罗恩做了一个非常简单的实验。
He just looked at what time of the day these nuclear hormone receptors are turned on at gene expression level and some at protein level.
他只是研究了一天中的什么时间这些核激素受体在基因表达水平和蛋白质水平上被打开。
And he found that almost all of them have a circadian pattern, at least in some tissue.
他发现几乎所有的生物都有昼夜节律模式，至少在某些组织中是这样。
So he went to that length to say even that circadian is metabolism, and metabolism is circadian.
因此，他甚至说昼夜节律就是新陈代谢，而新陈代谢就是昼夜节律。
The reason why we have a circadian rhythm is to have a daily rhythm in food-seeking behavior and eating, and also go through a period of time when we should be fasting.
我们之所以有昼夜节律，是为了每天在寻食行为和进食方面有节律，同时也会经历一段应该禁食的时间。
And then on the other hand, all the metabolic regulators also have to follow that rule.
另一方面，所有代谢调节剂也必须遵循这一规则。
And almost all metabolic regulators, everything that we can think of connected to metabolizing macronutrient protein, carb and fat, should also have a circadian rhythm or diurnal cycle to align or misalign.
几乎所有的代谢调节剂，我们能想到的与代谢大量营养素蛋白质、碳水化合物和脂肪有关的一切，也应该有一个昼夜节律或昼夜周期来调整或失调。
So, for example, fat oxidation should be in opposite phase with feeding, you know, in retrospect, at that time, it was kind of amazing to see Ron could foresee, of course, he's smart enough to foresee and predict that this is going to happen to circadian field, because at that time, we are thinking about the suprachiasmatic nucleus sleep-wake cycle, and we are not thinking too much about metabolism.
所以，举个例子，脂肪氧化应该和进食是相反的阶段，你知道，回想起来，当时，看到罗恩能够预见，真是太神奇了，当然，他很聪明，能够预见和预测这将发生在昼夜节律领域，因为当时，我们正在考虑视交叉上核的睡眠-觉醒周期，而我们并没有过多地考虑新陈代谢。
So that's the awesome thing about Salk, being at Salk, because we have 50 PIs really crammed into two awesome buildings and with an open lab structure.
这就是索尔克的伟大之处，在索尔克，因为我们有 50 名 PI，挤在两栋很棒的建筑里，而且是一个开放的实验室结构。
So you bump onto each other and talk to--.
所以你们互相撞到并交谈——。
Andrew Huberman: --And with an ocean view, yes.
Andrew Huberman：——而且还有海景，是的。
Satchin Panda: Yes, it's an amazing place.
Satchin Panda：是的，那是一个很棒的地方。
Andrew Huberman: I was lucky enough to have an adjunct position there when my lab was at UCSD.
Andrew Huberman：当我的实验室在加州大学圣地亚哥分校时，我很幸运能够在那里担任兼职职位。
And it is an amazing place doing incredible, groundbreaking work, which, of course, includes yours.
这是一个令人惊叹的地方，从事令人难以置信的开创性工作，当然也包括您的工作。
Listen, Satchin, I'm clear now that we have to have you back on for another series of discussions.
听着，萨钦，我现在很清楚，我们必须让你回来进行另一系列的讨论。
Seriously speaking, if you'd be so kind and willing to do that, I want to thank you for several things, first of all, for your taking the time today to sit down and discuss these incredibly interesting ideas in detail.
说实话，如果您如此友善并愿意这样做，我要感谢您的几件事，首先，感谢您今天抽出时间坐下来详细讨论这些非常有趣的想法。
Much of what we talk about on the podcast is obviously grounded in science often, but not always as actionable.
我们在播客上谈论的大部分内容显然通常都以科学为基础，但并不总是那么可行。
And so much of what we talked about today is actionable in the sense that many people are already doing certain dimensions of these things.
我们今天讨论的很多内容都是可行的，因为许多人已经在做这些事情的某些方面。
Some are not.
有些则不然。
Some are hearing about it and considering it.
有些人正在听说并考虑它。
You've given us dozens, I've listed some out, dozens of tools and considerations based on whether or not people are engaging in shift work or not.
你给了我们几十种，我列出了一些，根据人们是否从事轮班工作而列出的几十种工具和注意事项。
I think a lot of people are going to realize that they are shift workers, even though they didn't think they were, because of the nature of their habits.
我认为很多人会意识到他们是轮班工人，尽管他们并不认为自己是轮班工人，因为他们的习惯本质。
Now to light and to activity and so forth.
现在谈谈光和活动等等。
I absolutely love the firefighter study because of its relevance to the general population.
我非常喜欢消防员研究，因为它与普通大众相关。
Also another nod to fire fighters and shift workers everywhere.
也是对各地消防员和轮班工人的再次致敬。
Thank you.
谢谢。
And I think among the colleagues I've known for several decades now, you really are one of a very small few who've managed to do both animal studies and human studies, but also animal studies with a very clear eye and a pointer toward human health.
我认为，在我认识了几十年的同事中，您确实是极少数能够同时进行动物研究和人类研究，而且能够以非常清晰的眼光和指向人类健康的动物研究进行研究的人之一。
And that's such a vital and rare thing, especially in this day of extremely competitive funding.
这是一件至关重要且罕见的事情，尤其是在资金竞争极其激烈的今天。
So I want to thank you for your time today, for the knowledge you share, the actionable aspects to that knowledge, the science that you're doing in your laboratory.
因此，我要感谢您今天抽出宝贵的时间，感谢您分享的知识、这些知识的可操作方面以及您在实验室中所做的科学研究。
We will provide links for people to learn more about you, and of course, to go to the app so people can engage in some of this science directly.
我们将为人们提供更多关于您的信息的链接，当然，也可以访问该应用程序，以便人们可以直接参与其中的一些科学知识。
And, of course, you have several wonderful books now that we will also link to, both of which I've read and are wonderful.
当然，您现在有几本精彩的书，我们也将链接到这些书，这两本书我都读过并且都很棒。
In particular, the book, the first book, but also a book related to diabetes.
特别是这本书，第一本书，也是一本与糖尿病相关的书。
And so for diabetics and people interested in metabolic and blood sugar regulation there.
对于糖尿病患者和对代谢和血糖调节感兴趣的人来说也是如此。
So, yeah, on behalf of myself and my team here at the Huberman Lab podcast and all the listeners, I just want to say thank you so much.
所以，是的，我代表我自己和我在 Huberman Lab 播客的团队以及所有听众，我只想说非常感谢。
Your time is valuable, and the fact that you share it with us and educate so many people is really a gift.
您的时间很宝贵，您与我们分享这些时间并教育了这么多人，这确实是一份礼物。
Satchin Panda: Yeah, thank you.
Satchin 熊猫： 是的，谢谢。
And actually, likewise, there are very few scientists who have taken this leadership role that you have taken to come and communicate science to the public.
事实上，同样，很少有科学家能够像你们一样承担起向公众传播科学的领导作用。
It's not easy because sometimes you have to distill it down to a simple sound bite to the point where the scientists, and they'll say, oh, that may not be right, but we always have to keep in mind that we are always living in the dark age of science.
这并不容易，因为有时你必须将其提炼为简单的原声片段，以便科学家们会说，哦，这可能不对，但我们始终必须记住，我们始终生活在科学的黑暗时代。
Because the reason why I say that, this is not my quote, actually, this is from one of my scientific heroes, Paul Schimmel, from Scripps La Jolla, says, think about it, 10 years ago, what you thought was right and the best has already changed.
因为我之所以这么说，这不是我的引言，实际上，这是来自我的一位科学英雄，来自斯克里普斯拉霍亚的保罗·施密尔（Paul Schimmel），他说，想想看，10年前，你认为是正确的、最好的已经改变了。
But one thing is the circadian rhythm.
但有一件事是昼夜节律。
And aligning it to our internal clock, to our habit, is very important.
使其与我们的生物钟、我们的习惯保持一致非常重要。
And as you mentioned, we have our My Circadian Clock app, which is research facing, but we have also distilled all of this down to five or six timing components.
正如您提到的，我们有“我的昼夜节律时钟”应用程序，该应用程序正面临研究，但我们也将所有这些内容精简为五六个计时组件。
And we have a new app called Ontime Health, get Ontime Health.
我们有一个名为 Ontime Health 的新应用程序，获取 Ontime Health。
Andrew Huberman: Can people access that through the standard app stores?
Andrew Huberman：人们可以通过标准应用商店访问它吗？
Satchin Panda: Yeah.
萨钦熊猫：是的。
So now it's available in the App Store.
现在它可以在 App Store 中使用。
Sorry, the Apple App Store.
抱歉，苹果应用商店。
And we want to see how, because people always think about fasting.
我们想看看如何，因为人们总是想到禁食。
But as we discussed today, feeding fasting, or eating fasting, and activity and sleep are kind of interlinked and we have to kind of balance both of these.
但正如我们今天所讨论的，禁食喂养或禁食饮食以及活动和睡眠是相互关联的，我们必须平衡这两者。
So that was the idea behind this Ontime Health program.
这就是 Ontime Health 计划背后的想法。
And thank you, Andy, because what you're doing is immensely necessary.
谢谢你，安迪，因为你所做的事情是非常必要的。
Particularly these days when science is moving at a very fast pace.
尤其是在科学发展日新月异的今天。
There are a lot of results coming out.
有很多结果出来了。
Sometimes something can be very confusing, and you spending your time to communicate science is exceptional.
有时有些事情可能会非常令人困惑，而你花时间来传播科学是很例外的。
So thank you, Andrew.
谢谢你，安德鲁。
Andrew Huberman: You're most welcome.
安德鲁·休伯曼： 不客气。
It's days like today where I get to sit down and talk to brilliant colleagues like you who are doing the important work that really matters so much.
在像今天这样的日子里，我可以坐下来与像你这样的杰出同事交谈，他们正在做着非常重要的重要工作。
And so, as you mentioned a moment ago, there's a lot of darkness and confusion out there.
因此，正如您刚才提到的，外面有很多黑暗和混乱。
But thank you for being one of those who's shining light.
但感谢你成为那些闪耀光芒的人之一。
Satchin Panda: Thank you.
萨钦熊猫：谢谢。
Andrew Huberman: Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Satchin Panda all about circadian biology and time-restricted feeding.
Andrew Huberman：感谢您今天与 Satchin Panda 博士一起参加有关昼夜节律生物学和限时喂养的讨论。
If you're learning from and or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel.
如果您正在学习或喜欢此播客，请订阅我们的 YouTube 频道。
That's a terrific, zero-cost way to support us.
这是支持我们的绝佳且零成本的方式。
In addition, please subscribe to the podcast on both Apple and Spotify.
此外，请订阅 Apple 和 Spotify 上的播客。
And on both Apple and Spotify, you can also leave us up to a five-star review.
在 Apple 和 Spotify 上，您还可以给我们留下五星级的评价。
If you have questions for us or comments about the podcast or topics you'd like me to cover or guests that you'd like me to include on the Huberman Lab podcast, please put those in the comments section on YouTube.
如果您对我们有疑问或对您希望我报道的播客或主题或您希望我在 Huberman Lab 播客中加入的嘉宾有意见，请将这些意见放入 YouTube 的评论部分。
I do read all the comments.
我确实阅读了所有评论。
In addition, please check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode.
此外，请查看今天节目开头和整个节目中提到的赞助商。
That's the best way to support this podcast.
这是支持这个播客的最佳方式。
On various episodes of the Huberman Lab podcast, we discuss supplements.
在休伯曼实验室播客的各个剧集中，我们讨论了补充剂。
While supplements aren't necessary for everybody, many people derive tremendous benefit from them for things like improving sleep, supporting hormones, improving focus and so on.
虽然补充剂并不是每个人都需要的，但许多人从它们中获得了巨大的好处，例如改善睡眠、支持荷尔蒙、提高注意力等。
The Huberman Lab podcast is proud to have partnered with Momentous Supplements.
Huberman Lab 播客很荣幸与 Momentous Supplements 合作。
We've done that for several reasons.
我们这样做有几个原因。
First of all, Momentous Supplements are of the very highest quality and are used with various sports teams in various studies through the Department of Defense, and so on.
首先，重要补充剂具有最高的质量，并通过国防部等在各种研究中与各种运动队一起使用。
And Momentous Supplements tend to be in single ingredient formulations.
而重要补充剂往往采用单一成分配方。
Single ingredient formulations are absolutely essential if you are going to develop the most cost-effective and biologically effective supplement regimen for you because, simply put, they allow you to adjust the dosage of individual ingredients to alternate days that you take different ingredients to cycle them, and so forth.
如果您要为您开发最具成本效益和生物有效的补充方案，单一成分配方绝对是必不可少的，因为简单地说，它们允许您调整单个成分的剂量，以交替服用不同成分的日期，等等。
In addition, Momentous Supplements are available internationally, which many other supplements are not.
此外，Momentous 补充剂在国际上有售，而许多其他补充剂则没有。
If you'd like to see the supplements discussed on the Huberman Lab podcast, you can go to livemomentous spelled O-U-S, livemomentous.com/huberman.
如果您想查看 Huberman Lab 播客上讨论的补充剂，您可以访问 livemomentous 拼写为 O-U-S，livemomentous.com/huberman。
If you're not already following me on social media, it's Huberman Lab on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook and Linkedin.
如果您还没有在社交媒体上关注我，请关注 Instagram、Twitter、Facebook 和 Linkedin 上的 Huberman Lab。
And at all of those places I cover science and science-based tools, some of which overlap with the contents of the Huberman Lab podcast, but much of which is distinct from the content covered on the Huberman Lab podcast.
在所有这些地方，我都介绍了科学和基于科学的工具，其中一些与胡伯曼实验室播客的内容重叠，但其中大部分与胡伯曼实验室播客所涵盖的内容不同。
Again, it's Huberman Lab on all social media platforms.
同样，所有社交媒体平台上都是 Huberman Lab。
If you haven't already subscribed to the Huberman Lab podcast Neural Network newsletter, it's a monthly newsletter that includes free toolkits for things like toolkit for sleep, how to enhance the quality and duration of your sleep, toolkit for focus, toolkit for neuroplasticity, toolkit for deliberate cold exposure, heat exposure, and summaries of podcast episodes.
如果您还没有订阅 Huberman Lab 播客神经网络时事通讯，这是一份月度时事通讯，其中包括免费工具包，包括睡眠工具包、如何提高睡眠质量和持续时间、专注力工具包、神经可塑性工具包、故意冷暴露、热暴露工具包以及播客剧集摘要。
All of those toolkits can be found by going to hubermanlab.com.
所有这些工具包都可以通过访问 hubermanlab.com 找到。
Go to the menu, scroll down to newsletter and simply give us your email.
转到菜单，向下滚动到时事通讯，然后向我们提供您的电子邮件。
We do not share your email with anybody.
我们不会与任何人分享您的电子邮件。
And again, the newsletters and toolkits are completely zero cost, and you will also find some PDF examples of previous toolkits.
再说一次，新闻通讯和工具包完全是零成本，您还可以找到以前工具包的一些 PDF 示例。
Again, that's hubermanlab.com.
再说一遍，那就是 hubermanlab.com。
Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Satchin Panda.
再次感谢您参加今天与 Satchin Panda 博士的讨论。
I hope you found the conversation to be as informative and actionable as I did.
我希望您能像我一样发现这次对话内容丰富且具有可操作性。
And last but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.
最后但并非最不重要的一点是，感谢您对科学的兴趣。