Dr. Samer Hattar: Timing Light, Food, & Exercise for Better Sleep, Energy & Mood
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.
欢迎来到休伯曼实验室播客，我们在这里讨论科学和基于科学的日常生活工具。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm Andrew Huberman and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.
我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。
Today, I have the pleasure of introducing Dr. Samer Hattar as my guest on the Huberman Lab podcast.
今天，我很荣幸地介绍 Samer Hattar 博士作为我的 Huberman 实验室播客的嘉宾。
Dr. Hattar is the Chief of the Section on Light and Circadian Rhythms at the National Institute of Mental Health in Bethesda, Maryland.
哈塔尔博士是马里兰州贝塞斯达国家心理健康研究所光线和昼夜节律科的主任。
Dr. Hattar has many important discoveries to his name.
哈塔尔博士有许多重要的发现。
He was one of a handful of groups that discovered the light-sensing neurons in the eye that set the circadian clock.
他是少数几个发现眼睛中负责调节生物钟的感光神经元的研究小组之一。
This is a fundamental discovery made in the early 2000s that has led to an enormous number of additional discoveries on how light regulates our sleep, our immune system, our mood, mental health, metabolism, feeding and many other important processes.
这是 2000 年代初期的一项基本发现，它带来了大量关于光如何调节我们的睡眠、免疫系统、情绪、心理健康、新陈代谢、进食和许多其他重要过程的额外发现。
If ever there was somebody who understands how all of these processes interact and can inform best practices for our daily behaviors, it's Dr. Hattar.
如果有人了解所有这些过程如何相互作用，并能为我们的日常行为提供最佳实践，那么这个人就是哈塔尔博士。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
During our discussion today, Dr. Hattar answers questions that are absolutely essential for us to know about our health and well-being.
在我们今天的讨论中，哈塔尔博士回答了对于我们了解我们的健康和福祉绝对必要的问题。
For instance, how to align our sleep schedule with our activity schedule, such as exercise, and how to align light activity and exercise with our feeding rhythms.
例如，如何使我们的睡眠时间表与我们的活动时间表（例如运动）保持一致，以及如何使轻度活动和运动与我们的进食节奏保持一致。
He presents a new model of how light activity and feeding rhythms converge to support optimal health, and when those are not aligned correctly, how our mental and physical health can suffer.
他提出了一种新模型，说明光活动和进食节律如何融合以支持最佳健康，以及当它们不正确对齐时，我们的身心健康会受到怎样的影响。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's a discussion that is rich with scientific mechanism, made clearly, of course, so everybody can understand, as well as specific protocols to deal with shifts in day length, shifts in activity, and in order to optimize sleep, metabolism and well-being of various kinds.
这是一个充满科学机制的讨论，当然，它是清晰的，因此每个人都可以理解，以及处理昼长变化、活动变化以及优化睡眠、新陈代谢和各种福祉的具体方案。
I learned so much from Samer, as I always do.
一如既往，我从萨默那里学到了很多东西。
He is an absolute wealth of knowledge on all things related to light and circadian rhythms, physiology, and neuroscience.
他在与光和昼夜节律、生理学和神经科学相关的所有事物上拥有绝对丰富的知识。
I don't think you'll find anyone else as knowledgeable about these topics as Samer, and so I'm delighted that he joined us here on the podcast to share this information.
我认为您不会发现任何人像 Samer 一样了解这些主题，因此我很高兴他加入我们的播客来分享这些信息。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.
在开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。
It is however part of my desire and effort to bring zero-cost-to-consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public.
然而，我的愿望和努力的一部分是将有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本消费者信息带给公众。
In keeping with that theme, I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast.
为了与这个主题保持一致，我要感谢今天播客的赞助商。
And now my conversation with Dr. Samer Hattar.
现在是我与萨默·哈塔尔博士的对话。
Samer, thanks for sitting down with me.
Samer，感谢您坐下来与我交谈。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
My pleasure.
我很高兴。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, we go way back.
是的，我们回到过去。
So, you are best known in scientific circles for your work on how light impacts mood, learning, feeding, hunger, sleep, and these sorts of topics.
因此，您在科学界最出名的作品是关于光如何影响情绪、学习、进食、饥饿、睡眠等主题的研究。
So just to kick the ball out onto the field, so to speak, how does light impact the way we feel?
那么，如果把球踢到球场上，光是如何影响我们的感觉的呢？
So when I get up in the morning, I have the opportunity to interact with light in certain ways or to avoid light in certain ways.
因此，当我早上起床时，我有机会以某种方式与光互动，或者以某种方式避开光。
I have the opportunity to interact with sunlight or with artificial light.
我有机会与阳光或人造光互动。
Maybe you could just wade us into what the relationship is between light and these things like mood and hunger, et cetera.
也许你可以让我们了解光与情绪和饥饿等事物之间的关系。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Sure.
当然。
So I mean you do appreciate the effect of light for vision.
所以我的意思是你确实欣赏光对视觉的影响。
So when you wake up in a beautiful area, beautiful ocean, light is essential.
因此，当您在美丽的地方、美丽的海洋中醒来时，光线是必不可少的。
The sunrise, the sunset, blue sky, beautiful mountains.
日出、日落、蓝天、美丽的山峦。
So that's your conscious perception of light.
这就是你对光的有意识的感知。
But light has a completely different aspect that is independent of conscious vision or image-forming functions.
但光有一个完全不同的方面，它独立于意识视觉或图像形成功能。
And that's how it regulates many important functions in your body.
这就是它调节身体许多重要功能的方式。
I think the best that is well-studied and well-known is your circadian clock.
我认为经过充分研究和众所周知的最好的就是您的生物钟。
And the word "circadian" comes from the word "circa," which is approximate, and "dian" is day, so it's an approximate day.
“昼夜节律”这个词来自“circa”这个词，它是近似的，而“dian”是一天，所以它是一个近似的日期。
Why is it an approximate day?
为什么是近似日？
Because if I put you or any other human being who have a normal circadian clock in a constant conditions with no information about feeding time, about sleep time, about what time it is outside, you still have a daily rhythm, but it's not exactly 24 hours.
因为如果我把你或任何其他有正常生物钟的人置于一个恒定的条件下，没有关于进食时间、睡眠时间、外面时间的信息，你仍然有每日节律，但不完全是 24 小时。
So it will shift out of the solar day because it's not exactly 24 hours, and hence the name circadian.
因此它会移出太阳日，因为它不完全是 24 小时，因此得名昼夜节律。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So just to ask a quick question about that, when you say you have this, about, 24-hour rhythm, how does that rhythm show up in the tissues of our body?
所以我想问一个简单的问题，当你说你有这样的 24 小时节律时，这种节律是如何在我们身体的组织中表现出来的？
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Great.
太棒了。
Great question.
很好的问题。
So, it shows up at every level that we know we studied, it shows up at the level of the cell, it shows up at the level of the tissue, and it shows up at your behavior.
因此，它出现在我们所研究的每个水平上，它出现在细胞水平上，它出现在组织水平上，它出现在你的行为上。
The most obvious for you is your sleep-wake cycle.
对您来说最明显的是您的睡眠-觉醒周期。
You sleep, and you're awake and sleep at the 24-hour rhythms.
你睡觉，你醒着，按照 24 小时的节奏睡觉。
And if you measure the sleep-wake cycle of humans who are maintaining constant conditions, you will see that the period length of the sleep rhythm on average is more than 24 hours and humans is 24.2 hours.
如果你测量保持恒定条件的人类的睡眠-觉醒周期，你会发现睡眠节律的周期长度平均超过 24 小时，而人类为 24.2 小时。
So you'll be drifting 0.2 hours every day out of the solar day if you don't get the sunlight.
因此，如果没有阳光照射，每天就会偏离太阳日 0.2 小时。
So the sunlight adjusts that approximate data on exact days, so now your behavior is adjusted to the light dark environment or the solar day.
因此，阳光会在确切的日期调整该近似数据，因此现在您的行为会根据明暗环境或太阳日进行调整。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
So if I understand correctly, if I were to go into a cave or I were to be in constant light, and I didn't close my eyes in constant light, that I would still sleep in one coherent bout, and I would still be awake for more or less one coherent bout, maybe a nap, but the total duration of my day, so to speak, would be a little bit longer than 24 hours?
所以，如果我理解正确的话，如果我要进入一个山洞，或者我要处于恒定的光线下，并且我没有在恒定的光线下闭上眼睛，那么我仍然会在一个连贯的回合中睡觉，并且我仍然会醒着或多或少的一个连贯的回合，也许是小睡，但是可以说，我一天的总持续时间会比 24 小时长一点？
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Perfect.
完美。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But if I'm in a condition like most people are where the sun goes up and the sun goes down, and I have some understanding of that sunrise and sunset, then-
但如果我和大多数人一样，都是日出日落，并且我对日出日落有一定的了解，那么——
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
You don't have to have the understanding, you don't have to have conscious understanding.
你不必有理解，你不必有有意识的理解。
You have the detection.
你有检测。
So circadian "photoentrainment" is the word we use in training the circadian clock to the photic environment, is completely subconscious.
因此，昼夜节律“光诱导”是我们在训练生物钟适应光环境时使用的词，完全是潜意识的。
You're not aware of it.
你不知道这一点。
It's not like vision or image forming where you actually know what you're looking at.
它不像视觉或图像形成那样你实际上知道你在看什么。
So, it's all hypothalamic.
所以，这都是下丘脑的。
It's part of the brain that is not consciously driven, so you actually do not know when it happens or when it doesn't happen.
它是大脑中不受意识驱动的部分，因此您实际上不知道它何时发生或何时不发生。
And that what we'll get into when I tell you why light affects your mood and why sometimes people don't know how to deal with light to improve their mood, for example.
例如，当我告诉你为什么光会影响你的情绪以及为什么有时人们不知道如何处理光来改善他们的情绪时，我们将讨论这个问题。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
So this is a subconscious vision?
那么这是潜意识的幻象吗？
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Before you tell us about how light impacts mood, I'm curious, what is the relevance of adjusting this clock from little bit longer than 24 hours to 24 hours?
在您告诉我们光线如何影响情绪之前，我很好奇，将时钟从稍长于 24 小时的时间调整为 24 小时有什么意义？
I mean it seems like a small difference, 24 hours and 40 minutes or 24 hours, what's the relevance?
我的意思是，这看起来差别很小，24 小时和 40 分钟还是 24 小时，有什么相关性？
I mean, why should we care about that short difference?
我的意思是，我们为什么要关心这个短暂的差异？
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
So let's do the math.
让我们算一下。
If you shift out 0.2 hours a day, in five days, you're shifting out one hour.
如果您每天换班 0.2 小时，那么五天后，您将换班一小时。
So you're literally one hour off in your social behavior in five days.
所以五天内你的社交行为实际上就减少了一小时。
In 10 days, you're two hours off.
10天后，你就可以休息两个小时了。
And if you're an organism that is living in the wild, shifting out of the right phase of the cycle, you could either miss food or you could become food.
如果你是一个生活在野外的有机体，脱离了周期的正确阶段，你可能会错过食物，或者你可能会成为食物。
So it's really essential for survival.
所以这对于生存来说真的很重要。
I think it's one of the strongest aspect of survival for animals to have the anticipation and the adjustment to the solar cycle.
我认为对动物来说，对太阳周期的预期和调整是生存最强大的方面之一。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And for humans as well.
对于人类也是如此。
When you say animals, I'm assuming that applies to us.
当你说动物时，我假设这适用于我们。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Absolutely, yeah.
绝对是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I see.
我明白了。
So even though it's just a short bit longer than 24, if that accumulates over days, then you could find yourself very much out of phase with the rest of your species, essentially.
因此，即使它只比 24 长一点点，如果它在几天内累积，那么你可能会发现自己与其他物种格格不入，本质上是这样。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Yeah.
是的。
So let's say it's 0.2 hours, so in five days, it's one hour.
假设是 0.2 小时，那么五天后就是一小时。
In 25 days, it could be five or six hours.
25天的话，可能会是五六个小时。
You could be in New York, and you're feeling as if you traveled from New York to London.
您可能在纽约，感觉就像从纽约到伦敦一样。
So you would be having jet lag in New York even though you didn't do a jet lag travel.
因此，即使您没有进行时差旅行，您在纽约也会出现时差反应。
So it's very important for the adjustment.
所以调整非常重要。
And if we have time, maybe we could talk about why this is important for seasonality, because also it allows animals to anticipate the change in season.
如果我们有时间，也许我们可以讨论为什么这对季节性很重要，因为它还可以让动物预测季节的变化。
And the more you are high in the north or the south, the more that these weather changes occur very harshly, and you have to be ready for them.
北方或南方的海拔越高，这些天气变化就越剧烈，你必须做好准备。
And that happens in us as well.
这也发生在我们身上。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
All right.
好吧。
Well we will definitely get into seasonality.
好吧，我们肯定会进入季节性。
So we've got this subconscious vision that aligns us with the turn of the earth.
所以我们有了这种潜意识愿景，使我们与地球的自转保持一致。
How does that work?
这是如何运作的？
What is the machinery that allows that to happen, and how does that machinery work?
允许这种情况发生的机制是什么？该机制如何工作？
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Yeah, so we knew that in mammals, including us — we are mammals, humans — that the eyes are required for this function.
是的，所以我们知道，在哺乳动物中，包括我们——我们是哺乳动物，人类——眼睛是这项功能所必需的。
So, if humans are born without eyes or the optic nerves are damaged, humans are not able to adjust to the solar cycle.
因此，如果人类天生没有眼睛或视神经受损，人类就无法适应太阳周期。
So we know that the eyes are required.
所以我们知道眼睛是需要的。
And since we thought we knew about the eyes a lot before 2000, we thought that-
因为我们认为 2000 年之前我们对眼睛了解很多，所以我们认为——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, you said before the year 2000?
嗯，你说2000年之前？
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Before the year 2000, yes.
2000 年之前，是的。
We thought it's these photoreceptors in your retina that allow you to see.
我们认为正是视网膜中的这些感光器让您能够看到东西。
So in the human retinas, there are two types of photoreceptors.
所以在人类视网膜中，有两种类型的感光器。
They are called rods and cones because of their shapes.
由于它们的形状，它们被称为杆和锥。
And these rods and cones simply take the photon energy, which light is made of, and they change it in a way to an electrical signal that allow us to build the image of the environment in our cortices.
这些视杆细胞和视锥细胞只是获取构成光的光子能量，并将其转变为电信号，使我们能够在皮质中构建环境图像。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Subconsciously?
潜意识里？
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Consciously, in this situation because it's vision, right?
有意识地，在这种情况下，因为它的愿景，对吧？
It's image-forming vision, it's a visual cortex and association cortices which allow you to build conscious perception of the environment.
它是形成图像的视觉，它是视觉皮层和联想皮层，可以让你建立对环境的有意识的感知。
However, people have found, including me, with the work of David Berson and Ignacio Provencio, that there is a subset of ganglion cells.
然而，包括我在内的人们通过 David Berson 和 Ignacio Provencio 的研究发现，存在神经节细胞的一个子集。
The ganglion cells are the cells that leave the retina, their axon, leave the retina and project to the brain.
神经节细胞是离开视网膜的细胞，它们的轴突，离开视网膜并投射到大脑。
So these to only really a rod and cone information from the light environment to the brain.
所以这些实际上只是从光环境到大脑的杆状和锥状信息。
We found that a small subset of these ganglion cells are themselves photoreceptors that were completely missed in the retina.
我们发现这些神经节细胞的一小部分本身就是视网膜中完全缺失的光感受器。
And these are the photoreceptors that relay light environment subconsciously to the areas in the brain that have and house the circadian clock or the circadian pacemaker, which adjust all the clocks in our bodies to the central brain clock that allows them to entrain to the 24-hour light dark cycle.
这些光感受器会下意识地将光环境传递到大脑中拥有并容纳生物钟或生物节律起搏器的区域，这些区域将我们体内的所有生物钟调整到中枢大脑生物钟，使它们能够进入 24 小时明暗周期。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Incredible.
难以置信。
As I recall, because I was a graduate student at the time, in the year 2000, there was this landmark discovery made by you, Iggy Provencio, David Berson and others, that these cells exist that can communicate day and night information to the brain in this very small subset of cells.
我记得，因为我当时是一名研究生，2000 年，您、Iggy Provencio、David Berson 和其他人做出了一个里程碑式的发现，即这些细胞可以在这个非常小的细胞子集中向大脑传达昼夜信息。
Since then, I've heard, but maybe you can confirm or refute, that this system that connects the eyes to the rest of the brain is actually the most ancient form of vision, that this is probably the form of vision that some early version of human beings had before they had pattern vision, before they could see colors and shapes and motion, and all that, and that the same cells that perform this role are actually similar to insect eyes.
从那时起，我听说，但也许你可以证实或反驳，这个将眼睛与大脑其他部分连接起来的系统实际上是最古老的视觉形式，这可能是某些早期版本的人类在拥有模式视觉之前，在他们能够看到颜色、形状和运动之前所拥有的视觉形式，并且执行此角色的相同细胞实际上与昆虫的眼睛相似。
I think I heard David Berson say once that we actually have a little bit of the fly eye in our eye.
我想我曾听大卫·伯森说过，我们的眼睛里实际上有一点蝇眼。
What's he talking about?
他在说什么？
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Yeah.
是的。
So it's really interesting actually because these same ipRGCs, we discovered they contribute a little bit to image formation, and now, work from Tiffany Schmidt specifically have proven that they do contribute to image-forming functions, but they contribute to very limited aspect of image formation.
所以这实际上非常有趣，因为这些相同的 ipRGC，我们发现它们对图像形成有一点贡献，现在，Tiffany Schmidt 的工作特别证明它们确实对图像形成功能有贡献，但它们对图像形成的贡献非常有限。
So it fits your hypothesis that these are an ancient photoreceptors.
所以这符合你的假设，即这些是古老的光感受器。
The other thing that adds to that hypothesis is that they're expressed in cells that don't have any modification that make them look like photoreceptors.
补充这一假设的另一件事是，它们在没有任何修饰的细胞中表达，使它们看起来像光感受器。
So the photoreceptors that I told you about that are important for vision, image formation, they have very specialized structures that allow them to pack these structures with photo pigments, these are the photo-detecting proteins, so they could detect a high sensitivity of photons that pass through them.
所以我告诉你的光感受器对于视觉、图像形成很重要，它们具有非常特殊的结构，使它们能够用光色素包装这些结构，这些是光检测蛋白质，因此它们可以高灵敏度地检测穿过它们的光子。
These new photoreceptors don't have these specialized structures, so they just really need a lot of light.
这些新的光感受器没有这些特殊的结构，所以它们只需要大量的光。
At the time, we thought they need a lot of light to be activated.
当时，我们认为它们需要大量的光才能被激活。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
So that's why we think they are ancient, and that's why I think they adjust to ancient functions that are as important as regulating your body circadian clock to the solar environment, to solar day or to the light dark cycle.
这就是为什么我们认为它们很古老，这就是为什么我认为它们适应了古老的功能，这些功能与调节人体生物钟以适应太阳环境、太阳日或光暗周期同样重要。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So you mentioned ipRGCs, intrinsically photosensitive.
所以你提到了 ipRGC，本质上是光敏的。
So these are cells that connect the eye of the brain that behave like photoreceptors, essentially.
所以这些细胞连接大脑的眼睛，本质上就像光感受器一样。
And then you mentioned melanopsin, which is the actual pigment that converts the light into the electrical signal, more or less.
然后你提到了黑视素，它是或多或少将光转换成电信号的实际色素。
And my understanding is that melanopsin was identified first in frog melanophore.
我的理解是，黑视蛋白首先在青蛙黑素细胞中被鉴定出来。
So does that mean that we have little pieces of frog skin in our eyes?
那么这是否意味着我们的眼睛里有小片青蛙皮呢？
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
So honestly, David Berson say you have a fly in your eye because it sounds better.
老实说，大卫·博森说你的眼睛里有一只苍蝇，因为它听起来更好。
The more accurate I think is that you have a frog skin in your eye.
我认为更准确的是，你的眼睛里长了一层青蛙皮。
It's not as catchy, but really, melanopsin, really the name melanopsin is from melanocyte oxin.
它不是那么吸引人，但实际上，黑视蛋白，实际上黑视蛋白这个名字来自黑素细胞毒素。
So it's melanopsin because it was found in the frog melanocytes.
所以它是黑视蛋白，因为它是在青蛙黑素细胞中发现的。
The frogs can change their color depending on light, and melanopsin drives this response.
青蛙可以根据光线改变颜色，黑视蛋白驱动这种反应。
So when Ignacio Prevencio first discovered these oxins in frogs, luckily, he was smart enough to see if they're expressed in the frog eye.
因此，当伊格纳西奥·普雷文西奥（Ignacio Prevencio）首次在青蛙身上发现这些毒素时，幸运的是，他足够聪明，能够看到它们是否在青蛙的眼睛中表达。
They were expressed in the frog eye and it what appears to be retinal ganglion cells, which I told you the one that connect the eye to the brain.
它们在青蛙的眼睛中表达，它似乎是视网膜神经节细胞，我告诉过你，它是连接眼睛和大脑的细胞。
He had the insight to go and see if they're expressed in the monkey eye, and he found that they are also expressed in what appears to be retinal ganglion cells.
他有洞察力去看看它们是否在猴眼中表达，他发现它们也在视网膜神经节细胞中表达。
And really that what opened the field wide open.
这确实打开了这个领域的大门。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Then, David Berson did the seminal experiment where he went to the brain where the central oscillator, the oscillator that drives circadian rhythm in the brain, called the suprachiasmatic nucleus, that has been known for many years to receive retinal input.
然后，大卫·伯森做了一项开创性的实验，他去了大脑中的中央振荡器，驱动大脑昼夜节律的振荡器，称为视交叉上核，多年来人们都知道它可以接收视网膜输入。
And he labeled the cells that project there.
他标记了投射在那里的细胞。
And then, he found that even if you destroy rods and cones, you could get light responses from these cells.
然后，他发现即使你破坏了视杆细胞和视锥细胞，你也可以从这些细胞中得到光反应。
So you could imagine, he nearly fainted when he saw that these cells can respond independent completely in the absence of rod and cone input.
所以你可以想象，当他看到这些细胞可以在没有视杆细胞和视锥细胞输入的情况下完全独立地做出反应时，他几乎晕倒了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'll never forget reading those papers in 2000, 2001; I was at the meeting in D.C. when Ignacio — Iggy, we call him Iggy — showed this image of basically what is frog melanophores in the human eye.
我永远不会忘记2000年、2001年读过的那些论文；我在华盛顿参加会议时，伊格纳西奥（Ignacio）（伊基，我们称他为伊基）展示了这张基本上是人眼中青蛙黑色素细胞的图像。
And everyone was like, "Oh my goodness, this is the thing." And I want to get into how light actually can control circadian rhythms in a moment.
每个人都说，“天哪，就是这样。”我想了解光实际上是如何在瞬间控制昼夜节律的。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But I think it's worth mentioning now that people who are pattern vision blind, so people who cannot see, and no conscious vision, but have eyes, many of them still have these cells, these melanopsin intrinsically photosensitive cells and can essentially match, or entrain as we say, onto the light dark cycle.
但我认为现在值得一提的是，模式视觉失明的人，所以那些看不见的人，没有意识视觉，但有眼睛，他们中的许多人仍然拥有这些细胞，这些黑视蛋白本质上是感光细胞，并且基本上可以匹配，或者正如我们所说的，进入明暗周期。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
In fact, they possibly have no problems in circadian photoentrainment.
事实上，它们在昼夜节律光诱导方面可能没有问题。
They'll have enormous sleep-wake cycle.
他们将有巨大的睡眠-觉醒周期。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But they're totally blind?
但他们完全是瞎子吗？
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
But they are totally image blind.
但他们完全是图像盲。
And what's really interesting is that, and this story I heard from Chuck Sisler, so I'll give him credit, that some of these people who are image blind, usually they get dry eyes and they give them a lot of pain.
真正有趣的是，这个故事是我从查克·西斯勒那里听到的，所以我要相信他，其中一些图像盲的人通常会眼睛干涩，给他们带来很多痛苦。
And doctors used to think, "Oh, since they are image blind and they're getting dry eye, why don't you just remove their eyes?
医生们过去常想，“哦，既然他们是图像盲，并且患有干眼症，为什么不摘掉他们的眼睛呢？
They're not using them anymore." And the minute they would remove their eyes, they start having cyclical sleep problems, indicating that now they are not entraining to the light dark cycle and are having cyclical jet lags when their clock shifts through the light dark cycle.
他们不再使用它们了。”当他们移开眼睛的那一刻，他们就开始出现周期性睡眠问题，这表明他们现在没有进入明暗周期，并且当他们的时钟在明暗周期中移动时，他们会出现周期性时差反应。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's really interesting and I hear from a number of blind people in my various aspects of my job, and a lot of them have issues with sleep, I think in part because they don't realize that they too need to see light at particular times of day or night in order to match their schedule.
这真的很有趣，我在工作的各个方面都听到了一些盲人的来信，他们中的很多人都有睡眠问题，我认为部分原因是他们没有意识到他们也需要在白天或晚上的特定时间看到光，以配合他们的日程安排。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, I think that's a perfect segue for us to talk about how light and viewing light can impact our sleep-wake rhythms, and then we will move into some of the other ways in which light can impact other forms of bodily function.
嗯，我认为这是我们讨论光和观看光如何影响我们的睡眠-觉醒节律的完美过渡，然后我们将讨论光影响其他形式的身体机能的其他一些方式。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
I love the way you set it up because one of the most interesting and difficult aspect of trying to educate people about light effect on subconscious vision is that it's subconscious.
我喜欢你设置它的方式，因为试图教育人们了解光对潜意识视觉的影响最有趣和最困难的方面之一是它是潜意识的。
So we're all aware of what we think is intensity because we see the room.
所以我们都知道我们认为什么是强度，因为我们看到了房间。
But if you talk to people who know how to take photographs, and stuff like that, they know that the intensity varies greatly.
但如果你和懂得如何拍照之类的人交谈，他们就会知道强度差异很大。
But our system, because we have to see the same way in very bright conditions and very dim conditions, we're not very good at estimating intensity consciously.
但是我们的系统，因为我们必须在非常明亮的条件和非常昏暗的条件下以相同的方式看到，所以我们不太擅长有意识地估计强度。
So when you try to tell people about intensity, you really struggle because they think they know intensities, but they really don't.
因此，当你试图告诉人们强度时，你真的很困难，因为他们认为他们知道强度，但实际上他们不知道。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You mean light intensity?
你是说光强度吗？
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Light intensity.
光强度。
So that the cones themself have an incredible ability to adapt to different light conditions.
因此视锥细胞本身具有令人难以置信的适应不同光照条件的能力。
So you can see at all different conditions, otherwise, it'll be a disaster.
所以你可以在所有不同的条件下看到，否则，这将是一场灾难。
If you don't change the setting on your camera and you go from inside the room to the outside, it becomes completely white.
如果你不改变相机的设置，从房间里面走到外面，房间就会变成全白。
You don't see anything.
你什么也看不到。
So if your cones don't adapt to the environment, then you're not going to be able to see in this room and on the beach.
因此，如果您的视锥细胞不适应环境，那么您将无法在这个房间和海滩上看到东西。
Right?
正确的？
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
But the problem is your ipRGCs, the cells that we talked about, they measure intensity pretty well.
但问题是你的 ipRGC，我们谈到的细胞，它们可以很好地测量强度。
They really know what intensity is.
他们真的知道什么是强度。
They have a very good linear measurement of intensity.
它们具有非常好的强度线性测量能力。
They don't adapt actually that much, to be honest.
老实说，他们实际上并没有那么适应。
So that tells you that subconsciously, the system is used to measuring light intensity in a natural environment, because when you are in a natural environment, you don't have industrialized lighting, then your system is functioning very well.
所以这告诉你，潜意识里，系统是用来测量自然环境中的光强度的，因为当你在自然环境中时，你没有工业化的照明，那么你的系统运行得很好。
But now, when we change these environments, we could really mess up ourselves.
但现在，当我们改变这些环境时，我们真的可能会把自己搞砸。
So you have to teach people how to understand intensity, and that's something that you have to explain to people, and I think I love to do it myself.
所以你必须教人们如何理解强度，这是你必须向人们解释的事情，我想我喜欢自己这样做。
I do it in what is called the lowest amount of light required to allow you to see comfortably.
我在所谓的让您舒适地观看所需的最低光量下进行此操作。
So you have to do this as a fun experiment.
所以你必须把它当作一个有趣的实验。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So explain to me how this goes, and maybe we could break it up ...
向我解释一下这是怎么回事，也许我们可以把它分开......
the day into three or four parts.
一天分为三或四个部分。
So let's say, assuming that most people wake up in the morning as opposed to — night shift workers, et cetera, we could talk about later — but you wake up in the morning, so let's divide the day into quarters.
这么说吧，假设大多数人早上醒来，而不是夜班工人等等，我们可以稍后讨论，但你早上醒来，所以让我们把一天分成几个季度。
What is the proper way to interact with light in the first part of the day?
在一天的第一时间与光互动的正确方式是什么？
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
So I honestly think the easiest thing is waking up.
所以说实话，我认为最简单的事情就是醒来。
Get as much light as you can
获得尽可能多的光线
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
To your eyes?
在你眼里？
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Yeah, it's really nice.
是的，这真的很好。
Your system is primed.
您的系统已准备就绪。
If you're entrained, it's primed to get light, the sun should be out.
如果你被夹带了，它就准备好接受光线了，太阳应该出来了。
Most animals in the world, they actually seem to track the sun.
世界上的大多数动物实际上似乎都在追踪太阳。
The sun has a huge influence on life on earth.
太阳对地球上的生命有着巨大的影响。
Life on earth is because of sun.
地球上的生命是因为有太阳。
So, that's easy.
所以，这很容易。
In the morning when you wake up, you need light.
早上醒来时，您需要光。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay, so what is the behavioral practice that you recommend?
好的，那么您推荐的行为实践是什么？
Let's say somebody is in a condition where there's a lot of cloud cover.
假设某人处于有大量云层的情况下。
Is it important to get outside?
出去走走重要吗？
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
So I have to tell you, the cloudiest day is going to be much more brighter than your room.
所以我必须告诉你，最阴天的日子会比你的房间明亮得多。
You could ask any photographer — a cloudy day, unless it's really dark clouds.
你可以问任何摄影师——阴天，除非真的是乌云密布。
Usually cloudy days have much more bright outside than inside your room, even when you have good lighting inside the room.
通常阴天，即使房间内光线良好，室外也会比室内明亮得多。
So I think in the outside is usually, even when it's cloudy, you're going to get enough intensity to help you adjust your cycle to the day-night cycle.
所以我认为在室外，即使是阴天，你也会获得足够的强度来帮助你调整你的周期以适应昼夜周期。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So these are general rules of thumb, but how long do you recommend people go outside?
这些是一般经验法则，但您建议人们外出多长时间？
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
If you do it daily, because you remember, this thing is going to happen on a daily manner.
如果你每天都这样做，因为你记得，这件事就会每天发生。
So let's say 15 minutes-
假设 15 分钟——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So the clock is tracking it on a regular basis?
那么时钟会定期跟踪它吗？
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
It's spot-on counting, it's tracking.
它是精确计数，它是跟踪。
I would say 15 minutes.
我想说15分钟。
If you don't do it daily, you may want to increase it.
如果您不是每天都这样做，您可能需要增加它。
And we'll talk about when you travel what you could do.
我们将讨论您旅行时可以做什么。
But yeah, 15 minutes should be fun.
但是，是的，15 分钟应该很有趣。
You do it more, it doesn't hurt.
你多做一点，就不会痛了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
My understanding is that through a window, it dramatically decreases the amount of light energy coming down.
我的理解是，通过窗户，它会大大减少照射下来的光能。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
It depends of how thick the windows are and how dark they are.
这取决于窗户的厚度和黑暗程度。
But it's also nice to go outside and to feel the season.
但到外面去感受这个季节也很好。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sunglasses off?
太阳镜摘下来了吗？
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
I don't use sunglasses.
我不使用太阳镜。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But you have your Jordanian pigment.
但你有约旦颜料。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Whereas my eyes are very sensitive, right?
而我的眼睛很敏感，对吧？
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Yeah.
是的。
No, but I personally, if I'm in the shade or if it's not incredibly bright, I try to, especially in the morning, but I'm also an early person, so we have to differentiate between early and-
不，但就我个人而言，如果我在阴凉处或者光线不是特别明亮，我会尝试这样做，尤其是在早上，但我也是一个早起的人，所以我们必须区分早起和——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What time do you wake up?
你几点起床？
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
I wake up at 4:30 in the morning.
我早上 4:30 起床。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But the sun isn't ...
但太阳并不...
Okay.
好的。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
It's not out yet.
还没出来呢
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So what do you?
那你怎么办？
You turn on artificial lights?
你打开人造灯吗？
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
I usually don't turn on artificial light because I know the sun is going to come up eventually, but that's why I don't like the change in the timing that they do.
我通常不会打开人造光，因为我知道太阳最终会升起，但这就是为什么我不喜欢他们改变时间的原因。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wait, but what do you do between 4:30 a.m.
等等，但是凌晨 4:30 之间你会做什么？
and 7:00 a.m.?
和早上 7:00？
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
I look at my computer and iPhone.
我看着我的电脑和 iPhone。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, I see.
哦，我明白了。
Okay.
好的。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
So possibly, I get enough light.
所以可能，我得到了足够的光线。
But in reality, I mean, as long as you let your body get the morning sunlight, which I think is really ...
但实际上，我的意思是，只要你让你的身体接受早晨的阳光，我认为这真的......
there's no evidence, but to me, if you look at all animals, plants ...
没有证据，但对我来说，如果你观察所有的动物、植物......
This morning, sunlight seems to be very important.
今天早上，阳光似乎非常重要。
And we don't have experiments to show it, but I have a gut feeling that it has a huge impact on humans.
我们没有实验来证明这一点，但我有一种直觉，它对人类有巨大的影响。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, Jamie Zeitzer's lab at the Stanford Sleep Lab has shown that these early-morning light flashes can adjust the total amount of sleep that one will get, makes it easier to get into sleep.
斯坦福大学睡眠实验室的 Jamie Zeitzer 实验室表明，这些清晨的闪光可以调整人们的睡眠总量，使人更容易入睡。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
Absolutely.
绝对地。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
And can write also, did this beautiful camping experiments that showed-
也可以写，这个美丽的露营实验表明-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right, maybe you could describe those because those are beautiful experiments.
是的，也许你可以描述一下这些，因为这些都是美丽的实验。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
They are beautiful experiments.
它们是美丽的实验。
He took these college students that had a late onset of sleep and late waking time, and then he said, "Let's go camping and just don't use any artificial light, and you could go sleep as late or as early as you want, and wake up as late, as early." And he found a huge shift in their sleep pattern just by exposing them to the light dark cycle.
他带着这些晚睡晚起的大学生说：“我们去露营吧，不要使用任何人造光，你可以想晚睡早睡，想晚睡早起就睡。”他发现，只要将他们暴露在明暗周期中，他们的睡眠模式就会发生巨大的变化。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it lasted.
它持续了。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
And it lasted.
它持续了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Even after they came back-
即使他们回来之后——
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I think it was two days of camping reset the circadian clock.
我认为露营的两天重置了生物钟。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Seven days, but it lasted, yeah.
七天，但它持续了，是的。
It's pretty amazing.
这真是太神奇了。
Yeah.
是的。
It's really incredible.
实在是太不可思议了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay, so get bright light of some sort early in the day.
好的，所以在一天早些时候接受某种明亮的光线。
Ideally sunlight, even on a cloudy day.
理想的阳光照射，即使在阴天也是如此。
It's going to be absolutely brighter than indoor light.
它绝对比室内光更亮。
Okay.
好的。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
So that's easy.
所以这很容易。
And the other thing that I would like to mention to people, if you think it's very dim outside, let's say it's very cloudy, stay longer.
我想向人们提及的另一件事是，如果您认为外面很暗，假设天气很阴，请停留更长的时间。
So remember, intensity is only one component.
所以请记住，强度只是其中之一。
Duration is also important, because remember that the circadian system is not like the image system.
持续时间也很重要，因为请记住，昼夜节律系统与图像系统不同。
In the image system, you have to change every second because you're looking at different objects, you have to change your perception.
在图像系统中，你必须每秒都在改变，因为你正在看不同的物体，你必须改变你的感知。
But for the circadian system, it's trying to figure out where am I in the day-night cycle.
但对于昼夜节律系统来说，它试图找出我在昼夜周期中的位置。
So the more you give them the information, the better you are.
因此，您向他们提供的信息越多，您就越好。
So if it's very bright, you don't need a lot because it's clearly going to make you fire like crazy.
所以如果它非常亮，你就不需要太多，因为它显然会让你疯狂地燃烧。
But if it's not bright, stay longer, stay for one hour, have your coffee outside, or something like that.
但如果天色不亮，请停留更长时间，停留一小时，到外面喝杯咖啡，或者类似的事情。
It's just going to help.
这只会有所帮助。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think you said something extremely important, which is that this circadian system is trying to figure out when you are in time, not where you are in space.
我认为你说了一些非常重要的事情，那就是这个昼夜节律系统试图弄清楚你在时间中的时间，而不是你在空间中的位置。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Sorry, I said where you are in time, I meant when you are.
抱歉，我说的是时间上你在哪里，我的意思是你在什么时候。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh no, no, I wasn't correcting you.
哦，不，不，我没有纠正你。
I just meant that I think, fundamentally, that's the incredible thing about this system, that you have this clock, this 24-clock in your brain, but it needs to be synchronized to the outside.
我只是想说，从根本上来说，这就是这个系统令人难以置信的地方，你的大脑里有这个时钟，这个 24 小时，但它需要与外部同步。
So, could we go a little deeper into this circadian-setting behavior and come up with some general rules of thumb.
那么，我们能否更深入地研究这种昼夜节律设置行为，并提出一些一般的经验法则。
So let's say it's a very bright day, extremely bright, no clouds, the sun's out.
假设这是一个非常晴朗的日子，非常明亮，没有云，太阳出来了。
You said 10 minutes, 15 minutes.
你说10分钟，15分钟。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
And I'll tell you, if you're sensitive, you don't even have to go in the sun.
我会告诉你，如果你很敏感，你甚至不必去晒太阳。
You could be in the shade.
你可能在树荫下。
There's going to be so many photons out there in the shade, it's going to be perfect.
阴影中会有很多光子，这将是完美的。
You don't even have to see the sun, you don't have to have the sun.
你甚至不必看到太阳，你不必拥有太阳。
It's great for vitamin D, that's a different story.
它对维生素 D 很有好处，但那是另一回事了。
You could do this for your skin and protect your skin.
您可以为您的皮肤这样做并保护您的皮肤。
That's not my area of expertise.
那不是我的专业领域。
But for that effect on the circadian system, as long as you're outside in the shade, and it's sunny day, 10 to 15 minutes should be ample amount.
但为了对昼夜节律系统产生影响，只要你在阳光明媚的日子里，在室外的阴凉处，10 到 15 分钟就足够了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
And then let's say it's kind of overcast, it's not particularly bright, or there's solid cloud cover, but obviously, the sun is out, but it's not as bright.
然后假设天气有点阴，不是特别亮，或者有厚厚的云层，但显然太阳出来了，但不是那么亮。
How long do you think it would take to set the clock?
你认为设置时钟需要多长时间？
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Ten to 15 should be sufficient.
十到十五个就足够了。
Stay for half an hour, stay for 45 minutes.
停留半小时，停留45分钟。
If it's very dark cloud, stay for longer.
如果云很黑，请停留更长时间。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And if for some reason one finds themselves very far north and it's very, very dense cloud cover, how long and at what point should somebody consider using an artificial light source to mimic the sunlight?
如果由于某种原因，人们发现自己位于非常遥远的北方，并且云层非常非常厚，那么人们应该考虑使用人造光源来模仿阳光多长时间以及在什么时候？
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Honestly, this is where we don't have a lot of information still, because this is where we're going to discuss this maybe in more detail, that if you put humans in artificial conditions, the circadian system is very sensitive to light.
老实说，这是我们仍然没有很多信息的地方，因为这是我们将要更详细地讨论的地方，如果将人类置于人工条件下，昼夜节律系统对光非常敏感。
But in reality, in the real environment, light also is affecting other aspects that are independent of the setting of the circadian pacemaker, and these which we call the direct effect of light on mood, for example.
但实际上，在真实环境中，光还会影响与昼夜节律起搏器设置无关的其他方面，例如，我们称之为光对情绪的直接影响。
So that is very hard to figure out what intensity you need to use, and we haven't done enough experience because the system has been discovered just recently.
所以很难弄清楚你需要使用什么强度，而且我们还没有做足够的经验，因为这个系统最近才被发现。
But I would say, if you use bright light in the morning, and I mean it's hard for me to give numbers, it can get complicated.
但我想说，如果你在早上使用强光，我的意思是我很难给出数字，它可能会变得复杂。
I mean honestly, if you are that far north and you're in the winter and you want to get ...
我的意思是，老实说，如果你在那么远的北方，而且你正处于冬天，而你想要......
make sure you ...
确保你...
use these light boxes, I would suggest that personally.
我个人建议使用这些灯箱。
But that is-
但那就是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I use, it's actually not designed for circadian setting, but I have a 930 lux LightPad that I bought.
我使用，它实际上不是为昼夜节律设置设计的，但我买了一个 930 勒克斯的 LightPad。
They're very affordable compared to the dawn-simulating lights, which are quite expensive, frankly.
与黎明模拟灯相比，它们非常便宜，坦率地说，模拟黎明灯相当昂贵。
And I put it there.
我把它放在那里。
And so, just basically when I wake up in the morning, I use that until the sun comes out, and then I make sure once the sun is out, I go outside.
所以，基本上当我早上醒来时，我会使用它直到太阳出来，然后我确保一旦太阳出来，我就出去。
But I keep that thing on all day, and I don't know if that's good or bad.
但我整天都戴着这个东西，我不知道这是好是坏。
Is it good or bad?
是好是坏？
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Honestly, I don't think being exposed to bright light in the day is going to ever be bad because really, if you're outside in the day and unless, the worst that's going to happen, if the temperature is very high, your body's going to say, "Don't dehydrate," and go to sleep.
老实说，我不认为白天暴露在强光下会有什么坏处，因为真的，如果你白天在外面，除非发生最糟糕的情况，如果温度非常高，你的身体会说，“不要脱水”，然后去睡觉。
So you could tell actually sometimes when it's very hot, the more you get exposed to bright light, the sleepier you feel in the afternoon, which is counterintuitive.
所以你实际上可以看出，有时当天气很热时，你暴露在明亮的光线下的次数越多，你在下午就会感到越困，这是违反直觉的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But that's to protect us, you think against dehydration?
但这是为了保护我们，你认为可以防止脱水吗？
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
I think if you think about the human evolution from near the equator between noon and a certain time in the afternoon, it would have been very hard for you to maintain physiological homeostatic function being active at this very high-temperature time, so I think napping was a way, that's why I think it has a major function; napping was a way to somehow take you away from that dangerous zone.
我觉得如果你想想人类从中午到下午某个时间从赤道附近进化而来的话，在这么高温的时间里你很难保持生理稳态功能的活跃，所以我认为午睡是一种方式，所以我认为它有一个主要的功能；午睡是一种让你远离危险区域的方法。
And maybe that's why people in the north, they say in the winter, "We can't wake up in the morning," because they don't have this long light, so they sleep it more at night.
也许这就是为什么北方人在冬天说，“我们早上起不来”，因为他们没有这么长的光，所以他们晚上睡得更多。
But in the summer, they say we feel like we can't go to sleep, we have to put all these dark curtains.
但在夏天，他们说我们感觉无法入睡，我们必须拉上所有这些深色的窗帘。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
So I think venturing that much up north came up with a problem because evolution was used to a certain light environment; that was completely changed with a human.
所以我认为在北方冒险那么远会遇到一个问题，因为进化已经习惯了特定的光照环境。人类完全改变了这一点。
With other animals, I think, that lived there longer, they have come up with very interesting adaptation of actually measuring even very small changes in the light intensity that still occur.
我认为，对于在那里生活得更久的其他动物来说，它们已经想出了非常有趣的适应方法，可以实际测量仍然发生的光强度的微小变化。
And even if you're near the poles, even though it's always light, but there is a change in the light intensity across the day and night cycle.
即使你靠近两极，尽管总是有光，但昼夜循环中的光强度会发生变化。
So your system, if it's linear, and remember I told you that ipRGCs are incredibly linear, can still measure, "Oh, this is lower light than higher light," if the organism has the ability to do that.
因此，如果你的系统是线性的，请记住我告诉过你，ipRGC 具有令人难以置信的线性，如果生物体有能力做到这一点，它仍然可以测量“哦，这是较低的光而不是较高的光”。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I see.
我明白了。
It's interesting.
这很有趣。
I've spent so much time learning from you, fortunately, about these cells, and yet I never really appreciate it until now how on the one hand, they are tracking the amount of light to understand when we are in time relative to the 24-hour cycle, but also that you keep mentioning this linear measurement of intensity, that they really are trying to figure out when we are in time by measuring the intensity of light.
幸运的是，我花了很多时间向你学习有关这些细胞的知识，但直到现在我才真正意识到，一方面，它们通过跟踪光量来了解我们相对于 24 小时周期的时间，而且你不断提到这种强度的线性测量，它们确实试图通过测量光的强度来确定我们何时处于时间。
And of course, the sun is the most intense source of light available to us.
当然，太阳是我们可以获得的最强烈的光源。
So I think we have nailed down that first part of the day.
所以我认为我们已经确定了今天的第一部分。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Basically, it's get 10 to 30 minutes, depending on how bright it is, and try and do that as often as possible to give the system a regulation.
基本上，它需要 10 到 30 分钟，具体取决于它的亮度，并尝试尽可能频繁地这样做，以便给系统一个调节。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Daily is the best.
日常是最好的。
This system is really about, and you'll see that even for the effect on depression, it's about multiple days.
这个系统实际上是关于，你会发现，即使对于抑郁症的影响，它也需要几天的时间。
So you don't have to worry if you missed it one day, stay longer if you want, but if you are in a hurry and you want to do other stuff, that's a great recommendation.
因此，您不必担心是否有一天错过了，如果您愿意，可以停留更长时间，但如果您赶时间并且想做其他事情，这是一个很好的建议。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So you might want to compensate with some extra time if you missed a day or two.
因此，如果您错过了一两天，您可能需要一些额外的时间来弥补。
And this is why, I've heard you say before, it's entirely possible to get severely jet lagged without traveling-
这就是为什么，我以前听你说过，不旅行就完全有可能出现严重时差反应——
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
simply by staying in, being on your phone too much, not getting the sunlight.
只是呆在家里，花太多时间玩手机，得不到阳光。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
And you saw this during the pandemic, a lot of people mentioned that their sleep-wake cycle suffered a lot because if you're not going out, and if you're staying at home, and you don't have big windows, and you're waking up late, and then you're using very bright light till late at night, your body's going to shift.
你在大流行期间看到了这一点，很多人提到他们的睡眠-觉醒周期受到了很大影响，因为如果你不出去，如果你呆在家里，没有大窗户，你起得很晚，然后你使用非常明亮的光线直到深夜，你的身体就会发生变化。
And now, your day is going to start instead of, really, when the sun comes up, let's say at six o'clock in the morning, your day is going to start at 11 o'clock in the morning.
现在，你的一天将开始，而不是实际上，当太阳升起时，比方说，早上六点，你的一天将在上午 11 点开始。
That's what your body's going to think is the beginning of the day.
这就是你的身体认为的一天的开始。
So then you're not going to be able to sleep at 10 o'clock at night, because now that's really, for your body, it's completely different timing.
那么晚上 10 点你就无法入睡，因为现在对于你的身体来说，这是完全不同的时间。
And you could see this happen during the pandemic at a very high scale.
你可以看到这种情况在大流行期间大规模发生。
People got delayed in their sleep-wake cycle a lot.
人们的睡眠-觉醒周期明显延迟。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And there is this idea of chronotypes, that we all each intrinsically have a best rhythm of either being a morning person, you called yourself an early person, or a night owl, or more of a kind of standard to bed around 10:30 up around 7:00 type thing.
有一种时间类型的概念，我们每个人本质上都有一个最好的节奏，要么是早起的人，你称自己为早起的人，要么是夜猫子，或者更多的是一种标准的在 10:30 左右到 7:00 左右睡觉的类型。
And I think there are now good data, correct me if I'm wrong, from the National Institutes of Mental Health and elsewhere showing that the more we deviate from that intrinsic rhythm, the more mental health issues and physical health issues start to crop up.
我认为现在有来自美国国立心理健康研究所和其他地方的良好数据，如果我错了请纠正我，表明我们越偏离这种内在节奏，就越多的心理健康问题和身体健康问题开始出现。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
So there is great data on this and there is couple of things that complicate this.
因此，这方面有大量的数据，但有一些事情使这个问题变得复杂。
The first is the people who usually are late, they tell you that the society doesn't accommodate.
第一个是那些经常迟到的人，他们告诉你这个社会不包容。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
By late, what do you mean?
迟到了，什么意思？
People that wake up late and go to sleep late?
那些起得晚、睡得晚的人？
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Go to sleep late and wake up late, they have an overwhelmingly higher level of depression and failures.
晚睡晚起，他们的抑郁和失败程度要高得多。
Clearly, I mean the reason the people say "Sleep early, wake up early are better" because human notice that people who go to sleep early and wake up early, they do better in life.
显然，我的意思是人们说“早睡早起更好”，因为人们注意到早睡早起的人在生活中做得更好。
They notice that.
他们注意到了这一点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They just perform better.
他们只是表现得更好。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
They perform.
他们表演。
But the question is, is that intrinsic to the system or is that society?
但问题是，这是体制固有的还是社会固有的？
Because society start things usually early or late.
因为社会通常是早或晚开始做事。
That's a hard question to ask.
这是一个很难问的问题。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We discriminate against late risers.
我们歧视晚起的人。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
In a way, we discriminate, right?
在某种程度上，我们存在歧视，对吗？
But the other explanation is can rise experiment.
但另一种解释是可以进行实验。
These late riser, if they were truly chronotypically late, why would they shift so easily when you put them in the ...
这些晚起的人，如果他们确实在时间上迟到，为什么当你把他们放在...
If you were really chronotypically late and there is a phase relation between the light dark environment and your circadian clock, then doing this camping experiment should not have caused much changes because it's not that light is going to affect you in a certain way, is that this is the relationship that your body decided, that I'm a late sleeper, late waking.
如果你确实在时间上迟到，并且明暗环境和你的生物钟之间存在相位关系，那么做这个露营实验应该不会造成太大的变化，因为并不是光会以某种方式影响你，而是这是你的身体决定的关系，我是一个晚睡、晚起的人。
So honestly, I'm still ...
所以说实话，我还是...
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
...
...
late waking.
醒得很晚。
So, honestly, I'm still unable to figure out how much of this late waking up is controlled by the light environment and how much is intrinsic.
所以，老实说，我仍然无法弄清楚这种晚起有多少是由光环境控制的，又有多少是内在的。
I'm sure there are differences, but are they as big as we see in the environment?
我确信存在差异，但差异是否像我们在环境中看到的那么大？
Because you have people that go out to sleep at 7:00 p.m.
因为有人晚上 7:00 出去睡觉。
and wake up at 1:00 a.m.
并于凌晨 1:00 起床
These are clearly advanced phase.
这些显然是高级阶段。
PART 1 OF 4 ENDS Andrew Huberman:
第 1 部分（共 4 部分）结束 Andrew Huberman：
So, people that go to sleep at 7:00 p.m.
所以，晚上 7:00 睡觉的人
and wake up at 1:00 a.m.?
并在凌晨 1:00 起床？
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And feel good doing that?
这样做感觉很好吗？
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
I'm not so sure they feel good, but a lot of the time you talk to people, they say they are high achievers.
我不太确定他们感觉良好，但很多时候你和人们交谈时，他们说他们是高成就者。
But they suffer, because they go to 7:00 p.m.
但他们很痛苦，因为他们要到晚上 7:00。
wake up advanced phase sleep syndrome, they call it a syndrome.
醒来晚期睡眠综合症，他们称之为睡眠综合症。
But then you have people who would not be able to sleep until 5:00 a.m.
但有些人直到凌晨 5:00 才能入睡。
and not be able to wake up until 3:00 p.m., right?
直到下午 3:00 才能起床，对吗？
And I'm not so sure that the circadian system is that variable in the human population.
我不太确定昼夜节律系统是否是人类中的变量。
I mean, clearly there are maybe some genetic factors that make a small percentage of everything with a bell shape.
我的意思是，很明显，可能有一些遗传因素使一小部分东西具有钟形形状。
But I think most of the time, the light environment may play a role.
但我认为大多数时候，光环境可能会发挥作用。
And once, as we've talked about, this is a long-term effect of light.
正如我们所讨论的，这是光的长期影响。
Once you get into a rhythm, and I don't mean it as a pun.
一旦你进入节奏，我并不是说这是双关语。
In reality, once you get into a rhythm, it's hard to break out of that rhythm because if you start sleeping late and waking up late, you're not getting the morning sunlight.
事实上，一旦你进入一种节奏，就很难打破这种节奏，因为如果你开始晚睡晚起，你就无法享受到早晨的阳光。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
And so you're just going to be late.
所以你只会迟到。
And if you're like me waking up early, you're getting the morning sunlight, you're getting what Zeitzer said ...
如果你像我一样早起，你就会沐浴在早晨的阳光下，你就会明白 Zeitzer 所说的......
I said his last name wrong.
我把他的姓说错了。
The one in Stanford who did the ...
斯坦福大学的那个人做了...
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, Jamie Zeitzer.
哦，杰米·蔡泽。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Zeitzer.
蔡策尔。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
He actually worked for Czeisler.
他实际上为蔡斯勒工作。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Czeisler.
蔡斯勒。
Yeah it's confusing.
是的，这很令人困惑。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There are a lot of Zs and I's in their names.
他们的名字里有很多Z和I。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Both phenomenal scientists.
两位都是杰出的科学家。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What it seems to me is the case, is that the only way to really know if you're meant to be an early bird, as they call it, an early person or a late person or somewhere in between, is to get morning sunlight and figure out whether or not that makes you feel better.
在我看来，情况是这样的，真正知道你是否注定要成为早起的鸟儿（他们称之为早起者、迟到者或介于两者之间）的唯一方法就是获得早晨的阳光，并弄清楚这是否会让你感觉更好。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
And to understand, to be educated about how to measure intensity, how to measure, I put it between connotation.
为了理解、接受关于如何测量强度、如何测量的教育，我把它放在内涵之间。
Because you either get a measuring device, but you cannot depend on your eye to measure intensity.
因为你要么有一个测量设备，但你不能依靠你的眼睛来测量强度。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
So, how do we do that?
那么，我们该怎么做呢？
Because you keep coming back to this ...
因为你总是回到这个...
Sorry, that tells me that it's important.
抱歉，这告诉我这很重要。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
It's very important.
这非常重要。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So, obviously, there are free apps like Light Meter, where you can walk around and hold the button down and see how many lux are in the environment.
因此，显然，有像照度计这样的免费应用程序，您可以四处走动并按住按钮，看看环境中有多少勒克斯。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
These are complicated because you have to point them to specific regions.
这些很复杂，因为您必须将它们指向特定区域。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So, how do people start to develop an intuitive sense of the measurement of intensity?
那么，人们如何开始培养对强度测量的直观感觉呢？
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Yeah.
是的。
I think at one point I posted on Instagram how I keep my nighttime at home, and I found out that my night vision is very strong.
我记得有一次我在 Instagram 上发布了我如何在家里度过夜晚，然后我发现我的夜视能力非常强。
So, I found out that especially in the winter, I only need candle lights.
所以，我发现，尤其是在冬天，我只需要蜡烛灯。
So, I literally use these tea lights and I put 15 or 20 of them.
所以，我确实使用了这些茶灯，并放置了 15 或 20 个。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
How romantic.
多么浪漫啊。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
And it's so nice.
这真是太好了。
I could see, it clearly doesn't affect my circadian system.
我可以看到，它显然不会影响我的昼夜节律系统。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You and your cats.
你和你的猫。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
And my wife.
还有我的妻子。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And your wife, of course.
当然还有你的妻子。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
It's just great.
太棒了。
It's just great, right?
太棒了，对吧？
But I don't expect people to have the same night vision as me.
但我不指望人们有和我一样的夜视能力。
So, I mean I just tell people do the experiment.
所以，我的意思是我只是告诉人们做实验。
So, if you put three or four lights in your room, switch two, sit for 15 minutes, switch two off.
因此，如果您在房间里放了三到四盏灯，请打开其中两盏，静坐 15 分钟，然后关闭两盏。
Switch two off, let's say you're using five, and see after 15 minutes, you will not recognize you switch these two off.
关闭其中两个，假设您正在使用五个，15 分钟后，您将认不出您关闭了这两个。
My gut feeling is that most people would need at least 10 times less light than they use at night to see.
我的直觉是，大多数人需要的光线至少比夜间少 10 倍才能看清东西。
The problem people use it, because most of the time they didn't see the morning sunlight.
人们使用它的问题是，因为大多数时候他们看不到早晨的阳光。
They are actually hungry for light without their knowledge.
他们实际上在不知情的情况下渴望光明。
So, they come switch all these lights on, but at the wrong time because they woke up late.
所以，他们来打开所有这些灯，但在错误的时间，因为他们起晚了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Now I understand.
现在我明白了。
So, this morning light viewing goes way beyond setting your clock.
因此，观看晨光的意义远不止设置时钟那么简单。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's also a way to determine how little light you need later in the day.
这也是确定当天晚些时候需要多少光线的一种方法。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And we're going to talk about this in a moment, but how little light you get later in the day is a very strong determinant of things like when you will wake up, whether or not you wake up feeling refreshed, et cetera.
我们稍后会讨论这个问题，但是当天晚些时候您获得的光线有多少是一个非常重要的决定因素，例如您何时醒来，您醒来时是否感到神清气爽等等。
Let's-
让我们-
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
And that's why ...
这就是为什么......
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
I'm going to break it on your show, Andrew, that I'm going to tell you, I think there is something else that people need to think about, which is the tripartite model.
安德鲁，我要在你的节目中打破这一点，我要告诉你，我认为人们还需要考虑其他一些事情，那就是三方模式。
That this model incorporate three components which we talk about in details that allows us humans and all animals to incorporate the circadian clock and its relation to light, the homeostatic drive, and the direct effect of the environment, which includes stress, light, all kind of stuff.
该模型包含我们详细讨论的三个组件，使我们人类和所有动物能够将生物钟及其与光的关系、稳态驱动以及环境的直接影响（包括压力、光和各种东西）结合起来。
They have to be incorporated together.
它们必须合并在一起。
If you think, that's what I think right now.
如果你这么认为，那就是我现在的想法。
If you think of one alone, you will always miss something.
如果你独自思考，你总会错过一些东西。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
And when you think of them as a whole, things really become clear.
当你把它们作为一个整体来思考时，事情就变得很清楚了。
It's actually quite amazing.
这实际上是相当惊人的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay, well we will definitely want to hear about your tripartite theory and go into detail about this homeostatic mechanisms.
好吧，我们肯定想听听您的三方理论，并详细介绍这种稳态机制。
I want to make sure that for people who are thinking now, I'm sure, about light and how it impacts them.
我想确保现在正在思考光及其对他们的影响的人们。
So, the morning light-viewing behavior, I like to think we've tacked down clearly.
因此，我认为我们已经明确限制了早上观看光的行为。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And thank you for that because there's so much information out there, and I've tried to relay that information.
谢谢你，因为那里有很多信息，我已经尽力传达这些信息。
Of course, you're my primary source for all things circadian, as well as Jamie and others, of course, and Matt Walker, but I think you've made that very, very clear.
当然，你是我所有昼夜节律知识的主要来源，当然还有杰米和其他人，还有马特·沃克，但我认为你已经说得非常非常清楚了。
Now, let's say I've gotten my morning sunlight.
现在，假设我已经得到了早晨的阳光。
Okay, made my bright artificial light.
好的，制作了我明亮的人造光。
And throughout the day you said to get a lot of light.
一整天你都说要多晒太阳。
So, I'm working at my desk, maybe I'll go out during the day a few times, but I'm working at my computer, I'm doing things.
所以，我在办公桌前工作，也许白天我会出去几次，但我在电脑前工作，我正在做事情。
Is there anything about light viewing in the middle of the day that people should keep in mind, or can they just sort of freestyle it depending on what they're doing?
人们应该牢记在中午的光线观看方面有什么事情吗？或者他们可以根据自己正在做的事情自由发挥吗？
Most people are not in a dark room throughout the day.
大多数人并不是整天待在黑暗的房间里。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Yeah.
是的。
So, my gut feeling, if you got your morning sunlight, you walk from your car slowly, or you walk to work, you didn't wear sunglasses when the lights were still dim in the morning, that you could freestyle it.
所以，我的直觉是，如果你有早晨的阳光，你慢慢地从车里走出来，或者你步行去上班，当早上灯光还很昏暗时你没有戴墨镜，你就可以自由泳。
That even if you don't get a lot of light, there is a way to just ...
即使你没有得到很多光线，也有一种方法可以......
In the day, you don't have to just worry about getting a lot of bright light.
白天，您不必担心是否会受到大量强光的照射。
But personally, I like to do that.
但就我个人而言，我喜欢这样做。
So, I go out at lunch and have my lunch outside, as well.
所以，我午餐时出去，也在外面吃午饭。
This reminds the body that here it is even brighter now.
这提醒身体这里现在更加明亮。
But the evidence is that you could literally help your circadian clock by giving lights at dawn and dusk.
但有证据表明，在黎明和黄昏时开灯确实可以帮助你的生物钟。
But again, if you think of the tripartite model, this may be important versus circadian clock, but is it important for your mood?
但同样，如果你想到三方模型，这可能相对于生物钟很重要，但它对你的情绪重要吗？
So, that's where I think you need, or the homeostatic drive.
所以，我认为这就是你需要的，或者说稳态驱动力。
So, that's where you need to think about it.
所以，这就是你需要考虑的地方。
So, for the clock, in training your clock, you literally can entrain it only by the dawn sunlight.
所以，对于时钟来说，在训练你的时钟时，你实际上只能通过黎明的阳光来控制它。
You actually don't need dawn and dusk.
其实你不需要黎明和黄昏。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay, but ...
好吧，但是...
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
If you even forget that.
如果你甚至忘记了这一点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, and I appreciate that you're distinguishing between circadian effects and other effects of light.
是的，我很欣赏你区分昼夜节律效应和光的其他效应。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You're being very precise, which is appreciated.
你说得非常精确，值得赞赏。
Until we hear about this tripartite model, which we will cover, for the sake of the discussion, let's treat the light-viewing behavior as, what are the benefits or drawbacks of viewing light for all biological purposes, not just circadian setting?
在我们听到这个三方模型之前（为了讨论的目的，我们将介绍该模型），让我们将光观察行为视为：出于所有生物学目的（而不仅仅是昼夜节律设置）观察光的好处或缺点是什么？
So, in the morning it's clearly going to set the clock.
所以，早上显然要设置时钟。
And then during the day, if I understand correctly, the idea is to get as much bright light as you can, because you're feeding it sounds like a sort of light hunger.
然后在白天，如果我理解正确的话，这个想法是尽可能多地获得明亮的光线，因为你喂它听起来像是一种轻微的饥饿。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I see.
我明白了。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
I love this way to put it.
我喜欢这种表达方式。
I think there is a weird light hunger, considering that we are not photosynthetic organisms.
考虑到我们不是光合生物，我认为有一种奇怪的光饥饿感。
There is a weird light hunger in animals that they need to measure ...
动物有一种奇怪的轻微饥饿感，他们需要测量......
They need measure, and I think that relates to the season because the whole reproduction cycle of animals going to depend on the availability of food in the environment.
他们需要措施，我认为这与季节有关，因为动物的整个繁殖周期将取决于环境中食物的可用性。
And if you don't know when the season's going to happen, they don't have calendars, it's going to be very hard to survive.
如果你不知道赛季什么时候发生，他们没有日历，那就很难生存。
So, I think that's why we have this light hunger.
所以，我认为这就是我们有轻微饥饿感的原因。
That's a major hypothesis, it's not been tested.
这是一个主要假设，尚未经过验证。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Interesting.
有趣。
So, then afternoon and evening start to approach.
于是，下午和晚上开始临近。
So, I've had this weird experience, maybe you can psychologically or biologically diagnose me now, Samer.
所以，我有过这种奇怪的经历，也许你现在可以从心理或生物学上诊断我，Samer。
So, where if I go into a movie in the afternoon like a matinee, and I come out and it's dark, I notice a significant drop in my mood and my ability to go to sleep.
因此，如果我在下午像看日场一样去看电影，出来时天已经黑了，我会注意到我的情绪和入睡能力显着下降。
Whereas, if I get some view of the light in the evening, doesn't have to be the sunset, although sunsets are nice, but I get some light pulse in the afternoon, that I have no trouble whatsoever falling asleep.
然而，如果我在晚上看到一些光，不一定是日落，虽然日落很漂亮，但我在下午看到一些光脉冲，我毫无困难地入睡。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
And this happens in a daily ...
而这种事每天都会发生......
On a single time to watch?
一次性观看吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
More or less.
或多或少。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
That's interesting.
这很有趣。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then you mentioned the camping experiment, where when they went camping they're seeing the sunrise and the sunset.
然后你提到了露营实验，当他们去露营时，他们看到了日出和日落。
So, what should people do in the afternoon/evening time in terms of their light-viewing behavior?
那么，人们在下午/晚上的看光行为应该怎样做呢？
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
I mean, the best thing to do is to let the natural light creep into darkness, right?
我的意思是，最好的办法就是让自然光渗入黑暗，对吗？
That would be the best.
那是最好的。
But clearly, that would be inefficient.
但显然，这样做效率很低。
You want to go home, you want to read, you want to talk to your kids, you want to talk to your family.
你想回家，你想读书，你想和你的孩子说话，你想和你的家人说话。
So, I think it's nice to extend the day.
所以，我认为延长这一天是件好事。
I don't think that's wrong, if you somehow can block that light from affecting your circadian clock.
如果你能以某种方式阻止光线影响你的生物钟，我认为这没有错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So, should people use blue blockers in the evening?
那么，人们应该在晚上使用蓝色阻滞剂吗？
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
I personally do not like any blockers that take a single wavelength of light.
我个人不喜欢任何采用单一波长光的阻挡剂。
Because again, if you think of a holistic approach, yes the blue blocker is going to prevent you from affecting your circadian clock very much.
因为，如果你考虑一个整体的方法，是的，蓝色阻滞剂会阻止你对你的生物钟产生很大的影响。
But then your vision is going to be distorted, because we always see in full spectrum, the sun has this beautiful spectrum, right?
但是这样你的视野就会被扭曲，因为我们总是看到全光谱，太阳有这个美丽的光谱，对吧？
And then when you start seeing without the blue, things look yellow, and it can get really weird, right?
然后当你开始在没有蓝色的情况下看到东西时，东西看起来是黄色的，这会变得非常奇怪，对吧？
I personally, I've tried the blue blocker, and I couldn't even wear them.
就我个人而言，我尝试过蓝色阻挡器，但我什至无法佩戴它们。
I thought they were just really horrendous, to be honest.
说实话，我认为他们真的很可怕。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, along the lines of blue blockers, I think a lot of people mistakenly wear them all day long.
好吧，沿着蓝色阻滞剂的路线，我认为很多人错误地整天穿着它们。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Oh my God, that would be very bad.
天哪，那会非常糟糕。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
A lot of people do that.
很多人都这样做。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
That would be very bad.
那将非常糟糕。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
A lot of people do that.
很多人都这样做。
They think that that blue light is bad.
他们认为蓝光不好。
I think that the concept of blue light being bad led to a lot of product development.
我认为蓝光的概念不好导致了很多产品的开发。
And a lot of people are just assuming that viewing blue light is what was giving them headaches, when in fact it might have just been looking at screens at close distance.
许多人只是认为观看蓝光才是让他们头疼的原因，而事实上，这可能只是近距离观看屏幕而已。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
So, here's the problem.
所以，问题来了。
I mean, the blue light got the bad reputation because people who gave a pure blue light showed that it caused hugely retinal damage.
我的意思是，蓝光名声不好，因为发出纯蓝光的人表明它会造成巨大的视网膜损伤。
But again, if you're using blue light in its pure form, it has a lot of energy because it's shorter wavelength.
但同样，如果您使用纯净形式的蓝光，它会具有大量能量，因为它的波长较短。
But we are talking about full-spectrum light.
但我们谈论的是全光谱光。
There are ways now where you could change the spectrum of the light and keep it white between day and night and change the content of the color without you noticing.
现在有一些方法可以改变光的光谱，使其在白天和黑夜之间保持白色，并在您不注意的情况下改变颜色的内容。
So, you don't even have to affect your vision.
因此，您甚至不必影响您的视力。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So, how would you go about doing that?
那么，你会怎么做呢？
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
So, you just lower the level of the blue light.
因此，您只需降低蓝光水平即可。
You don't have to eliminate it.
你不必消除它。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So, just dim the lights?
那么，把灯调暗就可以了吗？
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Dim the blue, then increase the yellow, but keep all the colors in a certain white.
调暗蓝色，然后增加黄色，但将所有颜色保持在一定的白色。
So, could have different warmness of white.
所以，白色可以有不同的暖度。
And people know how to do this, physicists know how to do this.
人们知道如何做到这一点，物理学家也知道如何做到这一点。
People who work with light know how to do this.
从事光工作的人知道如何做到这一点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, maybe somebody in the wellness, slash ...
好吧，也许有人在健康方面，削减......
I don't like the word, but biohacking or optical community will do this.
我不喜欢这个词，但生物黑客或光学社区会这样做。
I think it's really important, I see so many people wearing blue blockers.
我认为这真的很重要，我看到很多人都穿着蓝色的拦截器。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
They have meetings now.
他们现在有会议。
I don't know why they love ...
我不知道他们为什么爱...
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, I think they're just uninformed.
嗯，我认为他们只是无知。
I think, frankly ...
我认为，坦白说...
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
And to be honest, it's easy.
老实说，这很容易。
It's easier to explain to somebody if ipRGCs respond mostly to blue, remove blue, you'll be fine, right?
如果 ipRGC 主要对蓝色做出反应，那么向某人解释会更容易，去掉蓝色，就可以了，对吧？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Right.
正确的。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
But that's not as simple as that, because they also receive rod and cone input.
但这并不那么简单，因为它们还接收杆和锥体输入。
So, you want to actually ...
所以，你实际上想要...
And we could go into details that's boring for your listeners, but it also affect the adaptation properties of the whole retina.
我们可以讨论一些对听众来说很无聊的细节，但它也会影响整个视网膜的适应特性。
So, you don't want to do something so drastic that you take just one color of the spectrum.
因此，您不想做一些太过激烈的事情，以至于只采用光谱中的一种颜色。
It just seems very counterintuitive to me to be honest.
老实说，这对我来说似乎非常违反直觉。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You've told me before as well that just because these intrinsically photosensitive, circadian-setting ganglion cells respond best to blue light, if the light is bright enough, because they also get input from other components of the eye, it doesn't matter if you block the blues.
你之前也告诉过我，仅仅因为这些本质上感光、调节昼夜节律的神经节细胞对蓝光反应最好，如果光足够亮，因为它们也从眼睛的其他部分获得输入，所以即使你阻挡蓝光也没关系。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
If you're looking at bright light at night, you're going to disrupt your circadian cycle.
如果你在晚上看着明亮的光线，你的昼夜节律就会被打乱。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
And that's why I didn't want to go into the boring details, but themself, the photo receptors have a wide range of responsiveness.
这就是为什么我不想讨论无聊的细节，但光感受器本身具有广泛的响应能力。
So, they are most sensitive to blue light, but that doesn't mean they don't respond to green light or to shorter than blue light.
因此，它们对蓝光最敏感，但这并不意味着它们对绿光或比蓝光更短的光没有反应。
They respond to very, very wide spectrum with different sensitivities.
它们对非常非常广泛的范围做出反应，具有不同的敏感性。
So, unless you understand the system, just removing 480, I don't think it's going to do anything.
所以，除非你了解这个系统，否则仅仅删除 480，我认为它不会有任何作用。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
480 nanometers?
480纳米？
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
So, your home is a cave at night, basically.
所以，基本上，你的家在晚上就是一个山洞。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
It's a nice cave.
这是一个不错的洞穴。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's a nice cave with candles, right?
这是一个有蜡烛的漂亮洞穴，对吧？
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
And I watch TV .
我看电视。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And you and your cats and your lovely wife, who I know who's also a phenomenal scientist in her own right?
还有你和你的猫，还有你可爱的妻子，我认识她，她本身也是一位杰出的科学家？
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Thank you.
谢谢你。
Yeah, she is.
是的，她是。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
She is.
她是。
But you do keep your home quite dimmed to dark at night.
但晚上你确实把家里调得很暗。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Yeah.
是的。
In fact I did go to meetings with some of my friends who work on this, and they really struggled with me.
事实上，我确实和一些从事这方面工作的朋友参加了会议，他们真的和我很矛盾。
They said, we could have broken our legs living in the same light environment that you do.
他们说，如果我们生活在和你们一样的光照环境下，我们的腿可能会骨折。
So, I am an extreme, but I measured it for myself, and I asked Rejji, my wife, if she's okay with it.
所以，我是一个极端的人，但我自己衡量了，我问我的妻子Rejji，她是否同意。
She also liked the dimness, both of us can see well in dim conditions, and that helps us a lot.
她也喜欢昏暗的环境，我们俩在昏暗的环境下都能看得很清楚，这对我们有很大帮助。
But I think you have to measure it for yourself.
但我认为你必须自己衡量一下。
You really have to do ...
你真的必须做...
It's a very simple experiment, just try to dim the light as much as you can.
这是一个非常简单的实验，只需尝试尽可能调暗灯光即可。
I call it the minimum amount of light you require to see comfortably.
我将其称为舒适观看所需的最低光量。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And that's how you want your environment ideally at night.
这就是您想要的理想夜间环境。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
This is what I think is the game changer.
我认为这就是游戏规则的改变者。
If you reach to a level where it's just barely, you are literally on the cusp of seeing uncomfortably versus seeing very comfortably, you are going to be very much better than ...
如果你达到了勉强达到的水平，你实际上正处于观看不舒服与观看非常舒适的边缘，你会比……好得多。
I don't like to make it completely dark.
我不喜欢让它完全变黑。
I think complete darkness induce anxiety in humans, to be honest.
老实说，我认为完全的黑暗会引起人类的焦虑。
So, I don't like complete darkness.
所以，我不喜欢完全黑暗。
In fact ...
事实上...
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Kids don't like complete darkness.
孩子们不喜欢完全黑暗。
They like a nightlight.
他们喜欢夜灯。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Even animals.
甚至动物。
Even nocturnal animals don't like complete darkness.
即使是夜行动物也不喜欢完全黑暗。
I mean, we have studies in animals that are nocturnal, that if you put them in complete darkness for several weeks, they have severe anxiety and depression-like effect.
我的意思是，我们对夜行性动物进行了研究，如果将它们置于完全黑暗的环境中几周，它们会产生严重的焦虑和抑郁样效果。
So, keep the light dim, use red light that is very dim if you want to keep the room for sleeping.
因此，如果你想让房间保持睡眠状态，请保持光线昏暗，使用非常暗的红光。
Red light that is very dim has very small effect on circadian clock.
非常暗的红光对生物钟的影响很小。
And below 10 lux of red light literally doesn't affect sleep at all.
低于 10 勒克斯的红光根本不会影响睡眠。
So, there are ways to do it.
所以，有一些方法可以做到这一点。
We need to educate the public, and I feel like you literally need a whole lecture to just explain to the people how to deal with life, because it's not as simple as people think.
我们需要教育公众，我觉得你确实需要一整个讲座来向人们解释如何应对生活，因为它并不像人们想象的那么简单。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, that's what we're doing here.
嗯，这就是我们在这里所做的。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We're stepping through it piece by piece.
我们正在一点一点地逐步完成它。
And the reason we're doing that is because it's not as simple as saying just block blue light or get a lot of light during the day and minimal at night.
我们这样做的原因是因为它并不像说只是阻挡蓝光或在白天获得大量光而在夜间获得最少光那么简单。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
I mean, just put it in perspective to tell it.
我的意思是，只是从角度来讲述它。
We only have three different cones in our retina that respond to three different colors.
我们的视网膜中只有三个不同的视锥细胞，可以对三种不同的颜色做出反应。
We call them red cones, for simplicity, green cones and blue cones.
为了简单起见，我们称它们为红色锥体、绿色锥体和蓝色锥体。
Yet we have only three of these, but we could see massive pallete of colors.
然而我们只有其中三种，但我们可以看到大量的颜色。
So, that tells you something.
所以，这告诉你一些事情。
If the system was just simply about a single color and it is just removing 480 or just blue is sufficient, then we should only see in red, yellow, and blue.
如果系统只是简单的单一颜色，并且仅删除 480 或仅蓝色就足够了，那么我们应该只看到红色、黄色和蓝色。
We shouldn't see all these different hues of color.
我们不应该看到所有这些不同的色调。
But because the system is not that, we see all these different colors.
但因为系统不是那样的，所以我们看到所有这些不同的颜色。
And that's why it's important to remind people that the white light is made of many different colors.
这就是为什么提醒人们白光是由许多不同颜色组成的重要原因。
It's actually like the rainbow, that's why you see the rainbow.
它实际上就像彩虹，这就是你看到彩虹的原因。
It's made of many colors.
它是由多种颜色制成的。
White light is never truly white, it's made of a lot of different colors.
白光从来都不是真正的白色，它是由许多不同的颜色组成的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's like the Pink Floyd album cover .
就像平克·弗洛伊德专辑封面一样。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Exactly.
确切地。
Exactly.
确切地。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So, dim at night, maybe dim red light, ideally, or candlelight.
所以，晚上光线昏暗，最好是昏暗的红光，或者烛光。
Find that minimum required light level.
找到所需的最低光照水平。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Test it.
测试一下。
Just make sure when you lower the light, sit for at least 10 to 15 minutes, let your system adapt.
只要确保调暗灯光时，静坐至少 10 到 15 分钟，让您的系统适应即可。
Because if you had it bright light and you switch it off, surely you're going to suffer because your system didn't adapt it.
因为如果你的灯很亮，然后你把它关掉，你肯定会因为你的系统不适应它而受苦。
It was used to very bright light.
它习惯了非常明亮的光线。
So, you want to engage your rods, which take a long time to dark adapt.
所以，你需要启动你的视杆细胞，这需要很长时间才能适应暗适应。
So, that's why I tell you, just wait a little bit.
所以，这就是为什么我告诉你，稍等一下。
Don't just switch it off there.
不要只是在那里关掉它。
I don't say put it on, put it off, sit down, wait for 10 minutes, ideally 15 minutes, and then see how you see.
我并不是说戴上、脱下、坐下来，等待 10 分钟，最好是 15 分钟，然后看看你会看到什么。
And then once you do that, you will notice that actually, yeah, I could see quite well even with much less light.
一旦你这样做了，你就会注意到，实际上，是的，即使光线少得多，我也能看得很清楚。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What do you do regarding screens?
关于屏幕，你会做什么？
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Yeah.
是的。
That's the hardest thing again.
这又是最难的事情了。
I mean, there are beautiful programs that change the whole intensity and color of the screen.
我的意思是，有一些漂亮的程序可以改变屏幕的整体强度和颜色。
These could help dim your screen at night to the lowest part.
这些可以帮助您在夜间将屏幕调至最低。
I mean, yes, you won't see it when you wake up in the morning, but then you can increase the intensity.
我的意思是，是的，你早上醒来时不会看到它，但随后你可以增加强度。
So, try to decrease.
所以，尽量减少。
I mean, just what we were talking about, think of light intensity, duration, color and time of day.
我的意思是，正如我们所讨论的，想想光的强度、持续时间、颜色和一天中的时间。
You really have to keep these four things together, right?
你真的必须把这四件事放在一起，对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We've roomed together at a couple meetings from time to time, no longer, because one of us, not to be named, has a severe snoring issue that made the other one pseudo-homicidal.
我们时不时地在几次会议上住在一起，但现在不再住在一起，因为我们中的一个人（不愿透露姓名）有严重的打鼾问题，导致另一个人疑似杀人。
You can guess who that was.
你可以猜到那是谁。
But I've seen you check your phone after dark once or twice, and you did it by sort of pointing your phone away from you, right?
但我见过你在天黑后检查手机一两次，而且你是通过将手机远离自己来做到这一点的，对吗？
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Yeah, absolutely.
是的，绝对是。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And actually, I'm sort of half joking ...
事实上，我是半开玩笑的......
And you dim it quite a bit.
你把它调暗了很多。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
I dim it quite a bit.
我把它调暗了很多。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm sort of half joking, but it actually makes sense that if you shine a flashlight in your eye, it's much brighter than if you shine a flashlight .
我有点半开玩笑，但实际上是有道理的，如果你用手电筒照射你的眼睛，它会比你用手电筒照射眼睛要亮得多。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Light only goes in direct line.
光只能沿直线传播。
So, if you just look on the side, most of the lights is going to go this way, and you're on the same as me.
所以，如果你从侧面看，大部分灯都会朝这边走，你和我在同一条路上。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
And as silly as that might seem to people listening, I mean what it means is that getting bright light in your eyes at night is something that you really want to avoid.
尽管这对于听的人来说可能看起来很愚蠢，但我的意思是，这意味着你真正想要避免的是，晚上眼睛里出现强光。
But there is the reality that ...
但现实是……
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
And even when I check sometimes, if I have something, and I check it so fast and switch it off so fast.
即使我有时检查，如果我有东西，我也会很快地检查它并很快地将其关闭。
So, I'm also aware ...
所以，我也知道...
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Not my messages.
不是我的消息。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
I'm also aware on the duration, right?
我也知道持续时间，对吗？
So, duration, intensity, color, and time of day.
所以，持续时间、强度、颜色和一天中的时间。
Ideally, I should not check iPhones and iPads.
理想情况下，我不应该检查 iPhone 和 iPad。
I don't use iPad at night because it's hard to lower it enough because it's a huge.
我晚上不使用 iPad，因为它太大了，很难把它放得足够低。
But even my iPhone, I try not to use it at night.
但即使是我的 iPhone，我也尽量不在晚上使用它。
And once it becomes 8:30 or 9:00, I don't look at it at all.
而一旦变成8:30或9:00，我就根本不看它了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Unless it's World Cup or Euro Cup, in which case Samer's on 24 hours, everybody.
除非是世界杯或欧洲杯，在这种情况下，萨默尔要24小时工作，大家。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
That's only every four years.
这只是每四年一次。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
He's a big soccer fan.
他是个超级足球迷。
All right.
好的。
This has been incredibly, no pun, illuminating.
这真是令人难以置信，没有双关语，很有启发性。
Let's talk about the relationship between light and some of these other noncircadian or pseudo-circadian effects.
让我们谈谈光与其他一些非昼夜节律或伪昼夜节律效应之间的关系。
And we will try and link those.
我们将尝试将这些联系起来。
But you had a, what I consider, absolutely landmark, beautiful paper published in Nature a few years ago showing that if you disrupt the exposure to light, or the timing of the exposure to light, that there are dramatic effects on the stress system and on the learning and memory system.
但几年前，您在《自然》杂志上发表了一篇我认为绝对具有里程碑意义的精美论文，表明如果您破坏光线照射或照射光线的时间，会对压力系统以及学习和记忆系统产生巨大影响。
We could talk about each of those separately or together.
我们可以单独或一起讨论其中的每一个。
What are the effects on stress and the effects on learning when light-viewing behavior and sleep-wake cycles are disrupted?
当光观察行为和睡眠-觉醒周期被扰乱时，会对压力和学习产生什么影响？
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Yeah.
是的。
So, just to remind you, you know that, but to remind your listeners that I was trained as a circadian biologist.
所以，只是提醒您，您知道这一点，但要提醒您的听众，我接受过昼夜节律生物学家的培训。
So, I really was indoctrinated into thinking that light has to affect the clock, which then cause all these different effects.
所以，我确实被灌输了这样的想法：光必须影响时钟，从而导致所有这些不同的影响。
So, that's what I believe.
所以，这就是我所相信的。
That's my dogma.
这是我的教条。
That's what have made me really happy.
这才是让我真正高兴的事情。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
And then Tara LeGates and Cara Altimus joined the lab, and we started discussing a lot of data and we said, "What if there is a direct effect of light that we are missing independent of the circadian clock?" So, this is not an easy question to ask and to answer, because as we've been talking all along, light affects the circadian clock.
然后 Tara LeGates 和 Cara Altimus 加入了实验室，我们开始讨论大量数据，我们说，“如果我们忽略了独立于生物钟的光的直接影响怎么办？”所以，这不是一个容易提出和回答的问题，因为正如我们一直在谈论的那样，光会影响生物钟。
So, how could you give light at different times of the day and not mess up the circadian clock?
那么，如何才能在一天中的不同时间发光而不扰乱生物钟呢？
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Luckily, we came up with such a way, and that's why it was important to do these experiment the way we did them.
幸运的是，我们想出了这样的方法，这就是为什么按照我们的方式进行这些实验很重要。
And we proved that this light dark cycle does not disrupt the clock.
我们证明了这种光暗循环不会扰乱时钟。
There is still a circadian rhythm, and does not cause sleep deprivation.
还是有昼夜节律的，不会造成睡眠不足。
And yet, surprisingly, if you give light at the wrong time of the day, even without disrupting the circadian clock or without causing sleep deprivation, as you mentioned, you get huge mood changes in the organisms and you get learning deficit.
然而，令人惊讶的是，如果你在一天中错误的时间发光，即使没有扰乱生物钟或没有造成睡眠不足，正如你提到的，你的生物体也会发生巨大的情绪变化，并且你会出现学习缺陷。
So, this really, and at the time, people have really hit us hard.
所以，在当时，人们确实给了我们很大的打击。
I mean, it was really hard to publish this work and you could ...
我的意思是，出版这项工作真的很难，你可以......
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well it came out in Nature.
好吧，它出现在《自然》杂志上。
So, in the end you prevailed.
所以，最后你赢了。
But I want to make sure that I understand.
但我想确保我理解。
So, you're saying that, yes, there are effects of light on the circadian rhythm.
所以，你的意思是，是的，光对昼夜节律有影响。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Meaning sleep and wakefulness?
意思是睡眠和清醒？
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And their timing.
还有他们的时机。
However, there are direct effects of light on mood that can be dissociated from the effects on sleep and waking.
然而，光对情绪的直接影响与对睡眠和清醒的影响无关。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So, if I interpret that correctly, that could mean that when we view light, and how much light, could make us feel happier or less happy or even depressed, stressed, learning, et cetera,
所以，如果我解释正确的话，这可能意味着当我们看到光时，以及光的多少，会让我们感到更快乐或更不快乐，甚至沮丧、压力、学习等等，
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Bingo.
宾果游戏。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Even if we're sleeping and waking up at the appropriate times.
即使我们在适当的时间睡觉和醒来。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Bingo.
宾果游戏。
I mean, eventually, because we're talking about the whole system, eventually when you start having the other problems, you also develop sleep problems.
我的意思是，最终，因为我们正在谈论整个系统，最终当你开始遇到其他问题时，你也会出现睡眠问题。
But you are absolutely right.
但你是绝对正确的。
And in fact, now research from Diego Fernandez in the lab have found that, now we know that they actually require different brain regions.
事实上，迭戈·费尔南德斯实验室的研究发现，现在我们知道它们实际上需要不同的大脑区域。
So, we don't only have a theory, we don't only have a light environment that showed they can be dissociated.
所以，我们不仅有一个理论，我们不仅有一个表明它们可以分离的光环境。
We know that they use completely different brain regions.
我们知道他们使用完全不同的大脑区域。
So, the SCN that I told you about earlier, the place where the central pacemaker is, the one that receives direct input from the retina through the ipRGCs to adjust your circadian clock, is not the area that receives the light input for mood regulation.
所以，我之前告诉你的视交叉上核（SCN），即中央起搏器所在的地方，通过 ipRGC 接收来自视网膜的直接输入以调整生物钟的区域，并不是接收用于情绪调节的光输入的区域。
It's a completely different brain region.
这是一个完全不同的大脑区域。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What's the brain region called?
大脑区域叫什么？
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
So, the brain region, we called it the peri-habenular nucleus.
所以，大脑区域，我们称之为缰核周围核。
I'm not so sure how good or bad the name, but doesn't matter, is the PHB.
我不太确定这个名字有多好或多坏，但没关系，是PHB。
And what's really amazing, this region also receives direct input from the ipRGCs, but projects to areas in the brain that are known to regulate mood, including the ventromedial prefrontal cortex, which has been studied for many years to be impacted in a human depression.
真正令人惊奇的是，该区域也接收来自 ipRGC 的直接输入，但投射到大脑中已知调节情绪的区域，包括腹内侧前额叶皮层，多年来一直在研究该区域在人类抑郁症中受到的影响。
So, just by this amazing serendipity to find that a region that is so deep in the advanced brain.
所以，正是通过这个惊人的机缘发现了高级大脑中如此深处的一个区域。
The prefrontal cortex is your executive brain, one of the most elaborated in humans.
前额叶皮层是你的执行大脑，是人类最复杂的大脑之一。
To see that they receive input from these ancient photoreceptor was stunning to us and told us how much we didn't understand the importance of light on a human behavior.
看到它们从这些古老的感光器接收输入信息让我们感到震惊，并告诉我们我们多么不了解光对人类行为的重要性。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So, how does that finding inform daily protocols for you or for other people?
那么，这一发现如何为您或其他人的日常习惯提供指导呢？
I realize you can't leap to always from one paper to daily protocols.
我意识到你不能总是从一篇论文跳到每日协议。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But if light, indeed does control prefrontal cortex, executive function, learning, stress and mood.
但如果光线充足，确实可以控制前额皮质、执行功能、学习、压力和情绪。
Let's say I'm waking up each morning and I'm sleeping, what should I do differently?
假设我每天早上醒来并睡觉，我应该做些什么不同的事情？
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
That's why we came up with the tripartite model.
这就是我们提出三方模型的原因。
Because yes, we could think about just adjusting the clock with lights in and being dark throughout the day, but that may not be important for your whole physiological function.
因为是的，我们可以考虑在白天亮灯和黑暗的情况下调整时钟，但这对于您的整个生理功能可能并不重要。
So, now if we include these other effects of light, that's why I prefer to still get a lot of light in the day.
所以，现在如果我们考虑到光的其他影响，这就是为什么我仍然喜欢在白天获得大量的光。
I don't want to be in very dim light condition throughout the day.
我不想整天处于非常昏暗的光线条件下。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I see.
我明白了。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
So, even though it doesn't affect your clock, as you beautifully said, Andrew, it may affect your mood and learning and memory.
所以，尽管它不会影响你的时钟，正如你所说的，安德鲁，它可能会影响你的情绪、学习和记忆。
It may affect your alertness level, which is going to allow you to learn better.
它可能会影响您的警觉水平，这将使您学习得更好。
It may affect your homeostatic drive, maybe your homeostatic factor will go higher so you could sleep earlier.
它可能会影响您的稳态驱动力，也许您的稳态因子会升高，这样您就可以早点睡觉。
So, it's important to think of light as stimulating all these brain regions, which means it's producing more activity, which in reality, this is how people think of the homeostatic drive.
因此，重要的是要认为光会刺激所有这些大脑区域，这意味着它会产生更多的活动，而实际上，这就是人们对稳态驱动力的看法。
That the more active you are, the more the homeostatic drive is built up, the better you sleep.
你越活跃，体内平衡驱动力就越强，你的睡眠就越好。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
So, that's why we came up with the tripartite model, because as a circadian biologist, I only thought of light through the circadian clock affecting behavior.
所以，这就是我们提出三方模型的原因，因为作为一名昼夜节律生物学家，我只想到光通过昼夜节律钟影响行为。
As a sleep biologist, they only thought of the homeostatic drive affecting sleep, affecting behavior.
作为睡眠生物学家，他们只想到稳态驱动会影响睡眠、影响行为。
And for people who study light for vision and other foundations, they thought only of the environmental input.
对于为视觉和其他基础研究光的人们来说，他们只考虑环境输入。
But now if you put them all together, you get with this tripartite model, where it's really mind boggling and it makes so much sense.
但现在如果你把它们放在一起，你就会得到这个三方模型，它确实令人难以置信，而且非常有意义。
The organism doesn't want to depend on a single component.
有机体不想依赖于单一组件。
But if you could incorporate these three together, you could have a beautiful system that is well-adapted.
但如果您可以将这三者结合在一起，您就可以拥有一个适应性强的漂亮系统。
So, let me tell you the sleep-wake cycle, right?
那么，让我告诉你睡眠-觉醒周期，对吧？
So, we know there is a homeostatic drive to affect sleep.
因此，我们知道存在影响睡眠的稳态驱动力。
You've had beautiful talks about that.
你们对此进行了精彩的谈话。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Which is basically the longer you're awake, the more you want to be asleep.
基本上，你醒着的时间越长，你就越想睡觉。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
So, that's your homeostatic drive.
所以，这就是你的稳态驱动力。
We've talked about the circadian influence of sleep and the fact that light dark cycle affect the circadian system, which eventually affects sleep.
我们已经讨论了睡眠对昼夜节律的影响，以及明暗周期影响昼夜节律系统，最终影响睡眠的事实。
So, these two components are well understood.
所以，这两个组成部分很好理解。
Now, the third factor is your direct light or environmental input.
现在，第三个因素是您的直接光或环境输入。
How much stress, how much light you get from there also can highly impact sleep.
压力的大小、光线的强度也会极大地影响睡眠。
So, even if you have a good circadian and homeostatic drive, if you're getting light at the wrong time of the day, or if you're being stressed and thinking, then your sleep is going to suffer.
因此，即使您有良好的昼夜节律和体内平衡驱动力，如果您在一天中错误的时间获得光照，或者如果您感到压力和思考，那么您的睡眠也会受到影响。
So, you have to think of the three together to have a beautiful sleep wake cycle.
因此，您必须同时考虑这三者，才能拥有一个美好的睡眠觉醒周期。
And that's why we came up with the tripartite model.
这就是我们提出三方模型的原因。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
The same thing happens with feeding.
喂养也会发生同样的情况。
I could beautifully put it to people.
我可以很漂亮地把它告诉人们。
Your hunger, your energy level is measured by the arcuate nucleus.
你的饥饿感、你的能量水平是由弓状核测量的。
Your daily intake of food is, again, dependent on the SCN and light dark input.
您每天的食物摄入量同样取决于 SCN 和光暗输入。
We found that if food is not available, there is yet a third input that is not dependent on the SCN, not depending on the arcuate, depending on a completely different brain regions.
我们发现，如果没有食物，还有第三种输入，它不依赖于视交叉上核，不依赖于弓形，而是依赖于完全不同的大脑区域。
So, the animal can actually start looking ...
所以，动物实际上可以开始寻找......
or the human can start looking for food when it's scarce even at time when they are not supposed to be active.
或者，人类可以在食物稀缺时开始寻找食物，甚至在他们不应该活动的时候。
So, that's how the organism think; they have to evaluate multiple inputs for them to decide what is the best physiological outcome at that moment, at that season.
所以，这就是有机体的思考方式；他们必须评估多种输入，以决定在那个时刻、那个季节最好的生理结果是什么。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I see.
我明白了。
So, I want to get into arcuate and feeding, but just to keep ...
所以，我想进入弓形和喂食状态，但只是为了保持......
make sure we can keep our hands around this tripartite model.
确保我们能够掌控这个三方模型。
So, if I understand correctly, we've got the circadian influence, then you've also got the drive to sleep.
所以，如果我理解正确的话，我们受到昼夜节律的影响，那么你也有睡觉的动力。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Actually, one of the ways that I think that can be best understood is if somebody ever pulls an all-nighter, they get tired around 11 or 12 or so, and then very tired around 3:00-4:00 a.m.
事实上，我认为最好理解的一种方式是，如果有人通宵达旦，他们会在 11 点或 12 点左右感到疲倦，然后在凌晨 3:00-4:00 左右变得非常疲倦。
But then even if you stay up, sometime right around seven or 8:00 a.m., your normal wake-up time, you start to feel alert again.
但即使您熬夜，在早上七点或八点左右（您的正常起床时间），您也会开始再次感到警觉。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And that's because the sleep drive is extremely strong, but there's a circadian rhythm that drives wakefulness in the morning.
这是因为睡眠驱动力非常强，但昼夜节律会驱动早上醒来。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay, so that's two of the components.
好的，这就是其中的两个组成部分。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Before we get into the feeding component, I want to talk about these direct effects of light on mood.
在我们讨论喂养部分之前，我想谈谈光对情绪的直接影响。
Okay.
好的。
Diego Fernandez's data and this peri-habenular thing.
迭戈·费尔南德斯的数据和这个缰核周围的东西。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So, let's just, for the moment, set aside the tri part of the tripartite model and just focus on what are the direct effects of light on mood.
所以，我们暂时先把三方模型中的三部分放在一边，只关注光对情绪的直接影响是什么。
And the way that I interpret what you've said so far is that the protocol that emerges from this, if one is trying to optimize their mood, is yes, see light — view light, I should say — early in the day in order to set your circadian clock, maybe also in the evening as well.
我对你到目前为止所说的话的解释是，如果一个人试图优化自己的情绪，由此产生的协议是，是的，在一天的早些时候看到光——我应该说，看到光——以设置你的生物钟，也许晚上也可以。
And of course, avoid light at night, get it as dim as possible.
当然，晚上要避免光线，尽可能调暗。
However, you said it's also a good idea to get as much bright light during the day as you safely can in order to improve your mood, independently of regulating your sleep-wake cycle.
然而，您说，在安全的情况下，白天尽可能多地接受明亮的光线也是一个好主意，这样可以改善您的情绪，而无需调节您的睡眠-觉醒周期。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
And that's a hypothesis.
这是一个假设。
Here's the problem where it is not going to be as satisfying as the circadian, is that, as you know, this brain region has been discovered very recently.
问题是，它不会像昼夜节律那样令人满意，正如你所知，这个大脑区域是最近才被发现的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Habenula?
缰核？
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
The peri-habenular region.
缰核周围区域。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, we've known about it a long time, but nobody knew what it did.
嗯，我们很早就知道它了，但没有人知道它做了什么。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
So, we knew about the habenula, but that's why the name is confusing.
所以，我们知道缰核，但这就是这个名字令人困惑的原因。
It's actually not the habenula itself, it's the peri-habenula.
它实际上不是缰核本身，而是缰核周围。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, near the habenula.
哦，在缰核附近。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
It's near the habenula.
它靠近缰核。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Why don't you just call it Samer Hattar nucleus?
为什么不直接称其为 Samer Hattar 核呢？
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
I should have, I don't know why.
我应该有，我不知道为什么。
Don't ask.
别问。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Maybe because if you do that, it's not okay.
也许是因为如果你这样做了，那就不好了。
Okay, so for here ever after, the peri-habenular nucleus, we should probably call it the Hattar ...
好吧，所以从今往后，缰核周围核，我们可能应该称之为哈塔尔......
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
The Hattar-Fernandez.
哈塔尔-费尔南德斯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
How about Hattar-Fernandez nucleus.
哈塔尔-费尔南德斯核心怎么样？
Okay, this is nerdy science attribution stuff, but I'm just going to call it the Hattar nucleus.
好吧，这是书呆子科学归因的东西，但我只是将其称为哈塔核。
Wikipedia, line it up.
维基百科，排列一下。
Okay, so this structure is taking light, and independent of sleep rhythms and circadian rhythms, it's driving changes in mood.
好的，所以这个结构正在吸收光线，并且独立于睡眠节律和昼夜节律，它正在推动情绪的变化。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Something.
某事。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
How does it do that?
它是如何做到的？
Is this through the dopamine system, the serotonin?
这是通过多巴胺系统、血清素吗？
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
We really ...
我们真的...
We still recently, we haven't identified this region very well.
直到最近，我们还没有很好地识别这个区域。
We don't know what light does to it.
我们不知道光对它有什么作用。
We don't know how it interacts.
我们不知道它是如何相互作用的。
So, this is an area that is ripe for discoveries and we are working on this right now.
所以，这是一个发现的时机已经成熟的领域，我们现在正在研究这个领域。
But that's why I said it's not satisfying.
但这就是为什么我说它不令人满意。
This is like the function of sleep.
这就像睡眠的功能一样。
Why do we sleep?
我们为什么睡觉？
We know sleep is very important to us, but we still don't have a satisfying function of why do we sleep, right?
我们知道睡眠对我们来说非常重要，但是我们仍然没有一个令人满意的函数来解释我们为什么睡觉，对吗？
We have ...
我们有...
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The "why" questions — I think it's our good friend and colleague at University of Washington, Russ Van Gelder, who always says, "When somebody asks why, the best answer is just to say, 'I wasn't consulted at the design phase.'"
“为什么”的问题——我认为是我们在华盛顿大学的好朋友兼同事 Russ Van Gelder，他总是说，“当有人问为什么时，最好的答案就是说，‘在设计阶段没有征求我的意见。’”
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Yeah, exactly.
是的，完全正确。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
None of us really know why.
我们谁也不知道为什么。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
No, but the point is, maybe I shouldn't have said why.
不，但重点是，也许我不应该说出原因。
What is the function of sleep?
睡眠有什么作用？
It's still very hard to know.
这仍然很难知道。
What is the reason organisms have to go offline for so long?
是什么原因导致生物体必须离线这么久？
People assume it's for repair, assume it's for learning and memory, assume all kind of stuff.
人们假设它是为了修复，假设它是为了学习和记忆，假设各种各样的东西。
But there is really no clear function for sleeping.
但睡眠确实没有明确的功能。
There is no clear function for sleeping.
没有明确的睡眠功能。
I mean, if you talk to people, there are hypotheses.
我的意思是，如果你与人交谈，就会有一些假设。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I mean, all we know is that if you don't sleep, or your sleep is very fractured, you get messed up.
我的意思是，我们所知道的是，如果你不睡觉，或者你的睡眠非常破碎，你就会变得一团糟。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
And you could die even, right?
你甚至可能会死，对吧？
I mean, it's really bad if you don't sleep.
我的意思是，如果你不睡觉，那真的很糟糕。
But we don't know what is the function.
但我们不知道它的功能是什么。
What is that sleep have done to organisms that couldn't have done with rest?
睡眠对那些休息时无法做到的生物体产生了什么影响？
What if you just could rest without sleeping, just sit down and rest.
如果你可以不睡觉就休息，坐下来休息怎么办？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, my lab's trying to figure out whether or not these non-sleep deep rest protocols can compensate for sleep.
好吧，我的实验室正在试图弄清楚这些非睡眠深度休息方案是否可以补偿睡眠。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
So, that would be ...
那么，那就是...
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I mean, obviously sleep is better, but many people are not getting the sleep that they need.
我的意思是，显然睡眠更好，但许多人没有得到他们需要的睡眠。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
So, if people are sensing that Samer and I are about to start talking over each other and arguing, that's always the goal when we talk, right?
因此，如果人们感觉到萨默和我即将开始互相交谈和争论，那么这始终是我们谈话时的目标，对吗？
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Unlike other scientists I interact with, when Samer and I get together, it's considered a successful conversation if we get into a big fight and then go for a big meal, where I pick the restaurant.
与我接触过的其他科学家不同的是，当萨默和我聚在一起时，如果我们大吵一架，然后去吃一顿大餐，而餐厅是我选的，那就被认为是一次成功的谈话。
Okay.
好的。
So, let's talk about food and eating and appetite.
那么，我们来谈谈食物以及饮食和食欲。
You had yet another ...
你还有另一个...
Yes, I greatly admire your success in this way.
是的，我非常钦佩你以这种方式取得的成功。
Yet another incredible discovery showing that there are effects of light on appetite and feeding behavior.
另一个令人难以置信的发现表明光对食欲和进食行为有影响。
Maybe you could just summarize those results for people.
也许你可以为人们总结这些结果。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Honestly, that paper is the one that allowed us to come with the tripartite model because we were thinking completely wrong about it.
老实说，正是那篇论文让我们能够采用三方模型，因为我们的想法完全错误。
We wanted this experiment.
我们想要这个实验。
It'd be fun for your audience to hear why we started this experiment.
对于您的听众来说，了解我们为什么开始这个实验会很有趣。
Remember that when we discovered ipRGCs, we figured if they are the only relay to entrain the circadian clock, then you could kill them and have an animal opposite to the one that we spoke, or human opposite to the one that we spoke about earlier, where instead of having no pattern vision and have circadian photoentrainment, we could produce an animal that have pattern vision, but no circadian photoentrainment.
请记住，当我们发现 ipRGC 时，我们认为如果它们是夹带生物钟的唯一中继，那么你可以杀死它们并获得与我们所说的相反的动物，或者与我们之前谈到的相反的人类，我们可以生产一种具有图案视觉但没有昼夜光诱导的动物，而不是没有模式视觉和昼夜节律光诱导。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So, circadian blind?
那么，昼夜节律盲呢？
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Circadian blind, but pattern sighted.
昼夜节律失明，但模式可见。
And we succeeded in that.
我们成功了。
The problem when you have these animals, which I've told you many ...
当你拥有这些动物时就会出现问题，我已经告诉过你很多了......
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
The problem when you have these animals, which I've told you many times already, is that they don't adjust to the day/night cycle.
我已经告诉过你很多次了，当你养这些动物时，问题是它们不适应昼夜循环。
So doing experiments on them become very complicated.
因此对它们进行实验变得非常复杂。
PART 2 OF 4 ENDS Andrew Huberman:
第 2 部分（共 4 部分）结束 Andrew Huberman：
What is their behavior like if you don't have these cells?
如果没有这些细胞，它们的行为会怎样？
Are they awake and then asleep, awake and that's it?
他们是醒着然后睡着，醒着就这样了吗？
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
They just drift, like the humans we've talked about.
他们只是随波逐流，就像我们谈论过的人类一样。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They think they're in Las Vegas, no clocks are watched.
他们以为自己在拉斯维加斯，没有人看钟。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
They drift, exactly.
他们确实在漂移。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They stay up later every night and go to sleep.
他们每天晚上都熬夜然后睡觉。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
They come either, depend their clock, if it's their clock is shorter, they come in earlier.
他们要么来，取决于他们的时钟，如果他们的时钟更短，他们就早点来。
If their clock is longer, they come in later.
如果他们的时钟更长，他们就会晚点进来。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So they're really messed up.
所以他们真的很乱。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
They really don't adjust to, if they were in the wild, they'd be eliminated in a second, right?
他们实在是不太适应，要是在野外的话，一瞬间就会被淘汰吧？
There is no way they survive.
他们没有办法生存。
So me and Diego started talking, and we're like, what if we use non-light in training agent, and what is the strong non-light in training agent?
所以我和迭戈开始交谈，我们想，如果我们在训练代理中使用非光会怎么样，训练代理中的强非光是什么？
Food.
食物。
So we thought that the light defective animals will have more sensitivity to food in training because, as you know more than me, this is an area that you've worked really well on.
所以我们认为，有光缺陷的动物在训练中会对食物更加敏感，因为正如你比我更了解的那样，这是你在这方面做得非常好的一个领域。
For vision, if you are image blind, your hearing and somatosensory get improved, right?
对于视觉来说，如果你是图像盲，那么你的听力和体感就会得到改善，对吧？
The lack of vision improves your hearing and sensation.
视力缺失会改善您的听力和感觉。
But we found actually that if you don't have the light system, actually you're feeding, the food ability to train the animal goes completely to the ground.
但我们实际上发现，如果你没有光照系统，实际上你在喂食，训练动物的食物能力就完全落到了地面。
Completely opposite to what we predicted.
与我们的预测完全相反。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So light-viewing and feeding behavior are interacting in ways that support one another.
因此，光观察和进食行为以相互支持的方式相互作用。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
And that's why we came with the tripartite model.
这就是我们采用三方模式的原因。
We figured it's different than sensation of the environment.
我们认为它与环境的感觉不同。
When you sense with vision, vision and hearing interact, but your vision is a real, full modality.
当你用视觉感知时，视觉和听觉相互作用，但你的视觉是真实的、完整的形态。
You want to see, that's what vision want to do.
你想看到，这就是视觉想要做的。
You want to hear, that's what hearing want to do.
你想听，这就是听力想做的事。
You want to sense, that's what sensing want to do.
你想要感知，这就是感知想要做的。
But for the circadian system, light, food, all these in training agent, they somehow have to interact to keep a coherent system.
但对于昼夜节律系统、光、食物，所有这些在训练代理中，它们必须以某种方式相互作用以保持系统的连贯性。
You don't just assume if you remove light, this one is going to be stronger.
你不能只是假设如果去掉光，这个光就会更强。
No, they need to know each others.
不，他们需要互相了解。
The light informs when the animal's going to eat.
灯光会通知动物何时要进食。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, what I like about this so much is that in the other world outside of science in which I don't really exist in, but that I see a lot of this kind of wellness stuff with all this mind-body integration stuff.
嗯，我非常喜欢这个，因为在科学之外的另一个世界中，我并不真正存在于其中，但我看到了很多这种健康的东西以及所有这些身心整合的东西。
It's interesting because people view the body more as a system.
这很有趣，因为人们更多地将身体视为一个系统。
A system of organs that interact as opposed to the way that standard science and medical profession is like you work on the liver or your ear, nose, and throat or heart and lung or brain.
一个相互作用的器官系统，与标准科学和医学专业的方式相反，就像你在肝脏或耳朵、鼻子、喉咙、心脏、肺或大脑上工作一样。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Right, that's a great way of thinking.
是的，这是一个很好的思维方式。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But the biology is integrated.
但生物学是整合的。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And so for somebody who's interested in affecting their eating behavior, something that you are familiar with and that we will talk more about your experiences of in a moment.
因此，对于那些对影响饮食行为感兴趣的人来说，这是您熟悉的东西，我们稍后将更多地讨论您的经历。
How should they use light in order to adjust their eating behavior?
他们应该如何利用光线来调整他们的饮食行为？
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
So now that I've told you about all these interaction between the different inputs of the circadian clock, just you think about it as an engineer.
现在我已经告诉了您生物钟不同输入之间的所有这些相互作用，您只需将其视为工程师即可。
What would be the best thing?
最好的事情是什么？
The best thing is to know when your food times happen in the day.
最好的事情是知道一天中的进食时间。
When should you get light and where is your circadian ...
你什么时候应该接受光照以及你的昼夜节律在哪里......
when is your circadian clock in your system, right?
你的生物钟什么时候在你的系统里，对吧？
So if you eat at very specific times of the day, that's another signal that is telling your body, your clock, you're in a certain time of the day.
因此，如果您在一天中的特定时间进食，这就是另一个信号，告诉您的身体、您的生物钟，您正处于一天中的特定时间。
So if you're having lunch at the correct time every day and you're getting bright light, now you have two systems that are informing your clock.
因此，如果您每天在正确的时间吃午餐并且光线明亮，那么现在您有两个系统可以通知您的时钟。
Your clock is going to be better.
你的时钟会更好。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So regular meal times.
所以吃饭时间要规律。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Regular meal times that fit your circadian clock.
适合您生物钟的规律用餐时间。
And in fact if you do that, when I started doing this, and it helped me lose weight, is that I'm exposing myself to the right amount of light dark cycle.
事实上，如果你这样做，当我开始这样做时，它帮助我减肥，那就是我让自己暴露在适量的光暗循环中。
I'm eating at regular time.
我按时吃饭。
It is amazing you will be not hungry.
令人惊奇的是你不会饿。
Let's say you eat at noon.
假设你中午吃饭。
You will not feel any hunger at 11:45, and then all of a sudden the hunger jumps in.
11点45分你不会感到任何饥饿，然后突然饥饿感袭来。
This is clearly not an energy issue because it could not be that drastic, right?
这显然不是一个能源问题，因为它不可能那么严重，对吧？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, the desire to eat is mainly driven by these cues, these hormone cues.
不，吃饭的欲望主要是由这些暗示，这些激素暗示驱动的。
That are very exquisitely timed to sleep-wake cycle but also to light.
它们与睡眠-觉醒周期以及光线的时间安排非常精确。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Exactly.
正是如此。
And you know in the wild you could imagine why energy level through the arcuate nucleus.
你知道在野外你可以想象为什么能量水平通过弓状核。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You should explain to people what the arcuate is, because I don't think we've done that adequately.
你应该向人们解释什么是弓形，因为我认为我们做得还不够。
The arcuate nucleus is an area of the hypothalamus that drives hunger and feeding behavior.
弓状核是下丘脑的一个区域，负责驱动饥饿和进食行为。
And what we're talking about is the fact that it's taking cues from your viewing of light, believe it or not, is impacting your level of hunger.
我们谈论的是这样一个事实：不管你信不信，它从你对光的观察中获取线索，正在影响你的饥饿程度。
And this is a nontrivial way in which your timing of hunger and amount of hunger is regulated by when and how much light you view.
这是一种非常重要的方式，你的饥饿时间和饥饿程度是由你看到光线的时间和程度来调节的。
So let me ask you a couple practical.
那么让我问你一些实用的问题。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Can I just, this is really, before you ask me — sorry, Andrew, we said we're going to fight.
我可以吗，这真的是，在你问我之前——对不起，安德鲁，我们说过我们要打架。
But to me is the interesting thing to think about it.
但对我来说，思考这个问题很有趣。
In the wild when you didn't have the availability of food that we have, the argument plays a huge important role because if you weren't successful in getting food, then the arc is going to tell you, look, you have to take risk and go get food because your energy level is very low.
在野外，当你没有我们拥有的食物时，争论起着非常重要的作用，因为如果你没有成功获得食物，那么弧线会告诉你，看，你必须冒险去获取食物，因为你的能量水平非常低。
And that's great, that's tons of great research about that.
这太棒了，有大量关于这方面的伟大研究。
But I think what's missing is the fact in humans we are not getting to a situation, most of us, we're not getting to a situation where we have low energy levels.
但我认为我们所缺少的事实是，在人类中，我们没有遇到能量水平较低的情况，我们大多数人都没有遇到能量水平较低的情况。
Most of the time actually we eat not because we want to, because we are really have low energy, but because we want to eat.
其实很多时候我们吃东西并不是因为我们想吃，因为我们真的没有能量，而是因为我们想吃。
So I think that's why I feel that the timing is very important for us because we always have enough energy level for us to eat.
所以我想这就是为什么我觉得时机对我们来说非常重要，因为我们总是有足够的能量来吃饭。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, I mean I enjoy eating so much that I'll eat just for the sensation of chewing.
嗯，我的意思是我非常喜欢吃东西，所以我吃东西只是为了咀嚼的感觉。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
True.
确实如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I mean I enjoy the taste too.
我的意思是我也喜欢这个味道。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
True.
确实如此。
Absolutely.
绝对地。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I enjoy the social aspects.
我喜欢社交方面。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And those are a part of it.
这些都是其中的一部分。
But I literally enjoy the physical act of chewing.
但我真的很享受咀嚼的身体动作。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Which explains a lot.
这解释了很多。
Okay, so how regular are you or do you recommend people be about meal times?
好的，那么您的用餐时间有多规律，或者您是否建议人们遵守用餐时间？
Because what I'm hearing is that light-viewing behavior is pretty straightforward.
因为我听到的是光观察行为非常简单。
Get a lot of light in the morning and throughout the day, minimize it in the evening and at night, generally speaking, for sake of mood and circadian rhythm.
一般而言，为了心情和昼夜节律，在早上和全天获得大量的光照，在傍晚和晚上尽量减少光照。
But for sake of regulating timing and quality, I should also say of food intake.
但为了控制时间和质量，我还应该说一下食物的摄入量。
Because people clearly make better choices about food intake when they are anticipating a meal and they aren't constantly hungry.
因为当人们期待吃饭并且不会一直感到饥饿时，他们显然会对食物摄入量做出更好的选择。
And so the ability to regulate hunger for particular phases of the circadian cycle is quite valuable for all people.
因此，在昼夜节律周期的特定阶段调节饥饿的能力对所有人来说都是非常有价值的。
Not just people trying to lose weight, but all people.
不只是想减肥的人，而是所有人。
Are we talking about down to the minute?
我们谈论的是具体细节吗？
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Absolutely not.
绝对不是。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
All right.
好吧。
Plus or, so 12 noon is my normal lunch, let's say, plus or minus.
加或，所以中午 12 点是我的正常午餐，可以说，加或减。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Half an hour.
半个小时。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
So eat around between 11:30 and 12:30.
所以在11:30到12:30之间吃饭。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
If that's the time.
如果是那个时间的话。
And it depends if you also do multiple meals, remember three meals, that's decision that somebody came up with.
这取决于你是否也吃多餐，记住三餐，这是有人做出的决定。
I don't know why.
我不知道为什么。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Nowadays people are, fewer people are doing that.
现在的人都这样了，越来越少人这么做了。
I think given our friend Satchin Panda's work.
我认为考虑到我们的朋友 Satchin Panda 的工作。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Right.
对。
I mean so you could have two meals.
我的意思是这样你就可以吃两顿饭了。
You could have very multiples meals that are distributed across your active time.
您可以在整个活动时间内吃很多顿饭。
I agree with Satchin Panda's work.
我同意 Satchin Panda 的工作。
That try to avoid eating when your system is supposed to be relaxing, when you're supposed to be at nonactive time.
当你的系统应该放松、当你应该处于非活动时间时，尽量避免进食。
So limit your eating to the active time of your cycle.
因此，将饮食限制在周期的活跃时间内。
And that seemed to be, and Joe Takahashi is doing some beautiful stuff on this.
看起来确实如此，高桥乔正在为此做一些漂亮的事情。
That seemed to be incredibly important for aspect of the circadian.
这对于昼夜节律的方面似乎非常重要。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And for health.
以及为了健康。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
And for health.
以及为了健康。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
I mean Satchin, we're referring to Satchin Panda's work.
我指的是 Satchin，我们指的是 Satchin Panda 的作品。
He wrote a beautiful book called "The Circadian Code." Maybe Samer, with some luck, you'll write a book as well, meaning the world will be lucky to have that book.
他写了一本美丽的书，名叫《昼夜节律密码》。也许萨默尔，如果运气好的话，你也会写一本书，这意味着世界将很幸运能拥有这本书。
But Satchin's data really strongly point to the fact that liver health, brain health, metabolic factors, and endocrine factors of various systems and organs all seem to benefit from having a period of each 24-hour day in which we are not eating anything and then eating at very regular, set times.
但萨钦的数据确实有力地指出了这样一个事实：肝脏健康、大脑健康、代谢因素以及各个系统和器官的内分泌因素似乎都受益于每天 24 小时中一段时间不吃任何东西，然后在非常有规律的固定时间进食。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Let's talk about eating and meal times and let's move a little bit away from the science for the moment, although we will return to it and talk a little bit more about your experience with eating and meal times.
让我们来谈谈饮食和进餐时间，让我们暂时远离科学，尽管我们会回到科学并更多地谈论您在饮食和进餐时间方面的经历。
So you're looking in good shape lately.
所以你最近看起来状态不错。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Thank you.
谢谢你。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I know you've been putting work into it.
我知道你一直在为此付出努力。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We talk a lot and you've been exercising and you've been eating well, meaning quality food.
我们聊了很多，你一直在锻炼，你吃得很好，这意味着食物质量很高。
You just came back from Jordan, where I'm assuming the food is amazing.
你刚从约旦回来，我猜那里的食物一定很棒。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
The food is amazing, and honestly, usually I gain a lot of weight in Jordan.
食物很棒，老实说，我在约旦通常会增加很多体重。
But this time I didn't gain any weight, which was really nice.
不过这次我的体重没有增加，真是太好了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, yeah.
是啊，是啊。
When I met you, you were probably about a hundred pounds heavier than you are now.
当我遇见你时，你可能比现在重一百磅左右。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Yeah, 275 pounds.
是的，275磅。
I'm 219 now.
我现在219岁了。
That's crazy.
太疯狂了。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You had a lot of vigor then, and you have a lot of vigor now.
那时的你精力充沛，现在的你也同样精力充沛。
But I know that you undertook a very specific protocol in order to lose the weight.
但我知道你为了减肥采取了非常具体的方案。
Based on your understanding of the circadian system, and of light, and appetite, and mood, maybe you could just tell us a little bit about what that schedule looks like, and we realized that this is not a prescription for everybody, but you found what worked for you.
根据您对昼夜节律系统、光线、食欲和情绪的了解，也许您可以告诉我们一些时间表，我们意识到这并不是适合每个人的处方，但您找到了适合您的方法。
Maybe just describe those.
也许只是描述那些。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
I mean honestly, I followed my circadian cycle, right?
我的意思是，老实说，我遵循了我的昼夜节律，对吧？
Of what we've talked about.
我们谈论过的事情。
So I dimmed the light at night, I slept at regular hours, I ate my major food in breakfast and lunch when I'm really active, and I'm really hungry.
所以我晚上把灯调暗，按时睡觉，在早餐和午餐时吃我的主要食物，当我非常活跃时，我真的很饿。
And at night when I avoid dinner because my circadian system really shuts off at three.
晚上我不吃晚饭，因为我的昼夜节律系统在三点就停止了。
I'm an early person.
我是一个早起的人。
You could give me anything I would eat before three.
你可以给我三点前我想吃的任何东西。
After three nothing appeals to me anymore.
三年后，就没有什么再吸引我了。
My system is shut off.
我的系统已关闭。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But what time are you going to sleep, and what time are you waking up?
但是你什么时候睡觉，什么时候起床？
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Oh, so in my case is, I should have put this out.
哦，所以就我而言，我应该把这个说出来。
I mean I go sleep literally at 9:00 p.m.
我的意思是我实际上晚上 9:00 就去睡觉。
I mean I literally, five minutes after 9:00 p.m.
我的意思是，从字面上看，晚上 9:00 后五分钟。
I'm completely out.
我完全out了。
And I wake up between 4:30 and 5:00 a.m.
我在凌晨 4:30 到 5:00 之间醒来。
So if I extend it, I go to 6:00 a.m.
因此，如果我延长时间，我会去早上 6:00。
but very rarely, depends on how tired I was.
但很少见，取决于我有多累。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And that, as I recall, was an important set of changes for you to be able to regulate your food intake.
我记得，这是一系列重要的改变，让你能够调节你的食物摄入量。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
Because then I'm having very big breakfast, and again for different people it's different.
因为那时我会吃非常丰盛的早餐，而且对于不同的人来说早餐也是不同的。
I have a big breakfast at 7:00 a.m.
我早上 7:00 吃了一顿丰盛的早餐。
maximum.
最大。
So I have a big breakfast, coffee and all the stuff.
所以我吃了一顿丰盛的早餐、咖啡和所有的东西。
Then I have some simple snack around 10.
然后我在10点左右吃一些简单的小吃。
Then I have regularly lunch at noon or between noon to one.
然后我会定期在中午或中午到中午吃午餐。
Then I have another snack at three.
然后我三点再吃一次小吃。
And the hardest time to regulate the food is between 12 and three.
而最难调节饮食的时间是十二点到三点之间。
This is when I really feel hungry all the time.
这时候我真的感觉很饿。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This is your equivalent of late evening for most people.
对于大多数人来说，这相当于深夜。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So for me it would probably be between 7:00 and 10:00 p.m..
所以对我来说可能是晚上 7:00 到 10:00 之间。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Exactly.
正是如此。
And then at night I'm completely not hungry.
然后到了晚上我就完全不饿了。
But usually, as you said, the beauty, the enjoyment of food, when my wife cooks some really beautiful Indian food I eat, but I'm not hungry.
但通常，正如你所说，食物的美丽和享受，当我妻子煮一些非常美味的印度食物时，我会吃，但我不饿。
And I notice if I eat with that, I usually gain weight.
我注意到如果我和它一起吃，我的体重通常会增加。
But if I regulate that at night, I also lose weight.
但如果我在晚上调节这一点，我也会减肥。
So there is a combination of all these things that help you adjust the input of food, the input of light, the input of the clock, and the drive to hunger.
因此，所有这些因素的组合可以帮助你调整食物的输入、光的输入、时钟的输入以及饥饿的驱动力。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, I appreciate you sharing that.
是的，我很感谢你分享这一点。
And I want to emphasize that some people are not hungry early in the day.
我想强调的是，有些人一大早并不饿。
They might be late shifted people in which case eating later in the day will work well for them.
他们可能是晚班的人，在这种情况下，当天晚些时候吃饭对他们来说会很有效。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
It will work as long as they don't eat early in the morning.
只要他们早上不吃饭，它就会起作用。
That's just, you have to work with your schedule, with your active schedule.
只是，你必须按照你的日程安排、你的活动日程安排来工作。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
You and I have been talking about this offline for years.
你和我已经在线下讨论这个问题很多年了。
I'm glad we're finally having this discussion publicly now.
我很高兴我们现在终于公开讨论了。
What we're talking about really is finding your ideal sleep schedule.
我们真正讨论的是找到您理想的睡眠时间表。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And finding your ideal eating schedule.
并找到您理想的饮食计划。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And understanding how those two things interact.
并了解这两件事如何相互作用。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
And the nice thing, as you said, finding them out is going to help you to understand how they interact.
正如你所说，找到它们是件好事，这将帮助你了解它们如何相互作用。
Because we know from the tripartite model that they are all interconnected, and for each person they're going to be interconnected differently.
因为我们从三方模型中知道，它们都是相互关联的，而且对于每个人来说，它们的相互关联程度都不同。
So for each person, for me, if I exercise at night, I'm going to mess up my whole system.
所以对于每个人来说，对于我来说，如果我在晚上锻炼，我就会搞乱我的整个系统。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So when do you exercise?
那么什么时候锻炼呢？
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Morning.
早上。
Morning works great for me.
早上对我来说效果很好。
I mean it's amazing.
我的意思是这太棒了。
Morning exercise for me works great.
晨练对我来说效果很好。
I tried one time because it was easier for me to exercise at night before I leave when the traffic is there from the night.
我尝试过一次，因为晚上交通堵塞时，我在出发前晚上锻炼更容易。
And I think that messed me up because I couldn't sleep well and I couldn't wake up well.
我认为这让我很困惑，因为我睡不好，也睡不好。
And that led to more changes in my food.
这导致我的食物发生了更多变化。
I gained weight again, actually, believe it or not, even though I was exercising.
事实上，不管你信不信，尽管我在锻炼，我的体重又增加了。
So I think this really makes me think that you have to think of the tripartite model to see where is the best times and what is the best interrelation between the different component, as you beautifully said.
所以我认为这确实让我觉得你必须考虑三方模型，看看哪里是最好的时机，以及不同组件之间的最佳相互关系是什么，正如你所说的那样。
Between your meal times, your light exposure and your sleep that works for you.
在您的用餐时间、光照时间和适合您的睡眠时间之间。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well thank you for that.
嗯，谢谢你。
Usually Samer's insulting me, today he's complimenting me.
通常萨默会侮辱我，但今天他却在称赞我。
I'm going to compliment him right back by saying this is the first time that I've ever really understood how yes, light can control sleep.
我会立即称赞他，说这是我第一次真正理解光是如何控制睡眠的。
Yes, it can control mood, yes it can impact feeding, but that it's really about doing the self-exploration to align those in the way that works best.
是的，它可以控制情绪，是的，它可以影响进食，但这实际上是为了进行自我探索，以最有效的方式调整这些。
And what I'm hearing, tell me if I'm wrong.
我所听到的，请告诉我我是否错了。
But what I'm hearing is that once you understand what gives you the best sleep-wake cycle, then you should exercise during the period of time in which you feel most alert, and if it works for your schedule, ideally you would also eat during the time in which you feel most alert and then stop eating and stop light-viewing behavior as you head towards sleep.
但我听到的是，一旦你了解什么给你带来了最好的睡眠-觉醒周期，那么你应该在你感觉最警觉的时间段锻炼，如果这适合你的日程安排，理想情况下你也会在你感觉最警觉的时间吃东西，然后在你入睡时停止进食并停止看光的行为。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
So the only thing I would say that complicates all of this, and that's what makes me sad, is your light exposure.
所以我要说的唯一让这一切变得复杂的事情，也是让我感到悲伤的事情，就是你的曝光。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mine personally?
我个人？
No, I'm just kidding.
不，我只是开玩笑。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
The people's light exposure, this is what complicates it.
人们的光线照射，这就是使事情变得复杂的原因。
Because you are not going to be able to figure all this out if you're shifting yourself out of your comfort zone.
因为如果你将自己移出舒适区，你将无法解决所有这些问题。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
By viewing.
通过观看。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
By viewing light at the wrong time of the day.
在一天中错误的时间观察光线。
So let's say if you were under an ideal natural conditions.
假设您处于理想的自然条件下。
You're a person who would sleep later than me, let's say will sleep at midnight and wake up at 8:00 a.m..
你是一个比我睡得晚的人，比如说半夜睡觉，早上8:00起床。
Let's say you don't eat anything till noon and as you said you eat late in the evening, then this would be perfect for you.
假设您直到中午才吃任何东西，并且正如您所说，您在晚上很晚才吃东西，那么这对您来说是完美的。
But now see what happens if now you include the light component.
但现在看看如果现在包含光分量会发生什么。
Now if you push your sleep from midnight to 4:00 a.m.
现在，如果您将睡眠时间从午夜推迟到凌晨 4:00。
now you're waking up in the morning and you are actually really not the morning.
现在你早上醒来，但你实际上已经不是早晨了。
You're waking up, sorry, at noon instead of 8:00 and the time where you're not supposed to be hungry, now you're going to start eating directly at noon or something like that or even delay it.
抱歉，你要在中午醒来，而不是 8:00 以及你不应该饿的时间，现在你要在中午直接开始吃饭或类似的事情，甚至推迟。
And now you're shifting your whole cycle and you don't know if this interaction between your sleep feeding and the light dark environment are still going to be maintained or not, and that's the problem that people have.
现在你正在改变你的整个周期，你不知道你的睡眠喂养和明暗环境之间的这种相互作用是否仍然会维持，这就是人们面临的问题。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So as I'm hearing this, what I'm realizing is most of us, probably me included, are messing up at least one, two, or three of these components.
因此，当我听到这个消息时，我意识到我们大多数人，可能包括我在内，都搞乱了这些组件中的至少一个、两个或三个。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But that the probe, the way to figure out what's right for oneself is to start manipulating light exposure.
但探针，找出适合自己的方法是开始操纵曝光。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
And I'm going to be honest, I'm biased because I believe that light is the stronger, is the strongest time giver.
老实说，我有偏见，因为我相信光更强，是最强大的时间给予者。
And a lot of people disagree.
很多人不同意。
Some people think feeding is.
有些人认为喂养是。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I always thought that light was the primary zeitgeber, the primary light.
我一直认为光是主要的时间，主要的光。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
But a lot of people think it's food.
但很多人认为这是食物。
A lot of people even sometimes mention social interactions.
很多人甚至有时会提到社交互动。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Have they read the literature?
他们读过文献吗？
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
I agree with you.
我同意你的看法。
I totally agree with you.
我完全同意你的观点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I mean, my understanding is that light is the most powerful driver of the things we're talking about.
我的意思是，我的理解是光是我们正在谈论的事物最强大的驱动力。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
That's why I think we need to regulate this first and everything else fits.
这就是为什么我认为我们需要首先监管这一点，然后其他一切都适合。
And the nice thing is that your sleep/work cycle and exercise tell you really bluntly if you're doing it right or not.
令人高兴的是，您的睡眠/工作周期和锻炼会直白地告诉您是否做得正确。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Tell me more about that.
告诉我更多相关信息。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
I tell you more.
我告诉你更多。
When I shifted my exercise, honestly things fell apart like never before.
当我改变锻炼方式时，说实话，事情变得前所未有的崩溃。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
When you moved from exercising early in the day.
当你一大早结束锻炼后。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Yeah, it completely fell apart for me.
是的，它对我来说完全崩溃了。
I didn't enjoy exercise at night.
我不喜欢晚上锻炼。
My pain tolerance for exercise wasn't as good.
我对运动的疼痛耐受性不太好。
I'm talking with N equals one.
我说的是 N 等于 1。
And I'm aware of this, I've never tested this empirically, but at least to me it really messed up everything.
我知道这一点，我从来没有凭经验测试过这一点，但至少对我来说，它真的把一切都搞乱了。
I started having problems.
我开始遇到问题。
Because my body temperature will go up, and that will affect my sleep.
因为我的体温会升高，这会影响我的睡眠。
I possibly was running in the gym with a lot of lights, so maybe the light was a component.
我可能在有很多灯的健身房里跑步，所以灯可能是一个组件。
But for me, exercising in the morning, it's so much better for me.
但对我来说，早上锻炼对我来说要好得多。
But lot of people can't even think of exercising in the morning.
但很多人根本就想不到早上锻炼身体。
So it depends on when you feel comfortable in your sleep-wake cycle and your exercise.
因此，这取决于您在睡眠-觉醒周期和锻炼中感到舒适的时间。
I think that tells you if your system is in synchrony with one another.
我认为这可以告诉您您的系统是否彼此同步。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's really interesting.
这真的很有趣。
We're good friends.
我们是好朋友。
Our friend Pat Dossett, right, that we both know.
我们的朋友帕特·多塞特，对，我们都知道。
Did nine years in the SEAL teams, and he's one of these people says he's happy to go for a run or swim anytime between 4:30 a.m.
他在海豹突击队服役了九年，他是其中之一，他说他很乐意在凌晨 4:30 之间的任何时间去跑步或游泳。
and 6:00 a.m.
和早上 6:00
And he'll train in the afternoon too because he's a SEAL team guy and they'll do whatever anytime.
他也会在下午训练，因为他是海豹突击队的队员，他们会随时做任何事情。
That's part of the phenotype.
这是表型的一部分。
But he feels best doing that.
但他觉得这样做最好。
I like to exercise mid-morning.
我喜欢在上午运动。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Interesting.
有趣。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I'm happy to skip eating until 12 or one.
我很高兴直到十二点或一点才吃东西。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Great.
太棒了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I like to go to sleep around 11:30, 12 because I'm a normal human being rather than you who goes to bed at 9:00 p.m..
我喜欢在 11:30 左右睡觉，12 因为我是一个正常人，而不是你晚上 9:00 睡觉。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
What about Pat?
帕特呢？
Actually, I've never asked him what time.
事实上，我从来没有问过他什么时间。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So Pat's ideal to-sleep time.
这是帕特理想的睡眠时间。
I've asked him, this would be around 8:30 or 9:00, except now ...
我问过他，应该是 8:30 或 9:00 左右，但现在......
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
I'm like Pat.
我就像帕特。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, but he has, yes.
不，但他有，是的。
But he has two young children, two years old and a newborn.
但他有两个年幼的孩子，一个两岁，一个新生儿。
And so the cycle is disrupted, right?
所以这个循环就被打乱了，对吗？
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Yeah.
是的。
But that's known, right?
但这是众所周知的，对吧？
I mean the effect of childbearing, and I think that we could talk about this that's more complicated, but that's pretty much, yeah.
我的意思是生育的影响，我认为我们可以讨论这个更复杂的问题，但这差不多了，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
I mean I think we need to come up with a new name for chronotype because chronotype implies that it's just about sleep and wake.
我的意思是，我认为我们需要为计时类型想出一个新名称，因为计时类型意味着它只是关于睡眠和觉醒。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
I agree.
我同意。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Being an early bird or a night owl.
成为早起的鸟儿或夜猫子。
And what we're also talking about is how exercise and eating latch onto those.
我们还讨论的是锻炼和饮食如何影响这些。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
And the phase relation between them and the phases between different components, as you said.
正如你所说，它们之间的相位关系以及不同组件之间的相位。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because they interact.
因为他们相互作用。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Because they interact.
因为他们相互作用。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
And they don't have to be in the same phase.
而且它们不必处于同一阶段。
Let's say my light and food could be very close to each other.
假设我的灯光和食物可能非常接近。
Your light and food could be different, right?
你的光线和食物可能会有所不同，对吧？
The phases don't have to be, they can't be plastic.
这些相不一定是塑料的。
So you have to find this for yourself.
所以你必须自己找到这个。
You may be a person who eats late at night, exercises late at night, or you may be a person who exercise early, eat later.
你可能是一个很晚吃饭、很晚运动的人，也可能是一个早运动、晚吃饭的人。
So it doesn't, as long as the phase is good.
所以只要相位良好就不会。
That's what you have to find out.
这就是你必须找出的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And if I understand correctly, when you're talking about phase relationship, it means you want to lump exercise, feeding and light for.
如果我理解正确的话，当你谈论相位关系时，这意味着你想要将运动、喂养和光照归为一类。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
And sleep.
然后睡觉。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And sleep.
然后睡觉。
In a way that as a coherent and total system makes you feel really good.
在某种程度上，作为一个连贯的整体系统会让你感觉非常好。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Temporally in a great order.
暂时秩序井然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
Yeah.
是的。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
And I could tell you, to me, is literally getting exposed to sun.
我可以告诉你，对我来说，这实际上是暴露在阳光下。
Clearly in the morning, clearly at noon, I go out.
早上清清楚楚，中午清清楚楚，我就出去了。
I keep my windows in the office completely open, eating mostly in the early time of the day and exercising.
我把办公室的窗户完全打开，主要在一天的早些时候吃饭并锻炼身体。
And literally at the end part of the day, I'm literally in a more thoughtful, vegetative state.
从字面上看，在一天结束的时候，我确实处于一种更加深思熟虑的植物人状态。
I really can't, like after five, I tell my students, if you want to tell me anything complicated, you're wasting your time.
我真的不能，就像五点之后，我告诉我的学生，如果你想告诉我任何复杂的事情，你就是在浪费时间。
My brain just doesn't function.
我的大脑无法正常工作。
So even though I only sleep at night, but I'm really starting to shut off, ramp down.
所以，尽管我只在晚上睡觉，但我真的开始关闭、逐渐减少。
Really I mean I could send email, talk about brainless stuff.
真的，我的意思是我可以发送电子邮件，谈论无脑的事情。
But my power, my energy to do powerful stuff could really drop tremendously.
但我的力量、我做强大事情的精力可能真的会大幅下降。
So all my students who know me very well, they put the meetings with me early in the morning because they know this is when I'm on.
所以我所有非常了解我的学生，他们都会一大早就和我一起开会，因为他们知道这是我在的时间。
So everything for me, and for me is very tight.
所以一切对我来说，对我来说都是非常紧张的。
So it could be different from, it's very clustered in the morning.
所以它可能与早上非常聚集的情况有所不同。
It's all tied together.
这一切都是捆绑在一起的。
And literally the remaining part seems to be just a vegetative state.
从字面上看，剩下的部分似乎只是植物人状态。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You and my bulldog Costello, who unfortunately passed away recently.
你和我的斗牛犬科斯特洛最近不幸去世了。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Oh no.
哦不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
I did not know.
我不知道。
That's so sad.
太悲伤了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Samer and Costello were good friends.
萨默和科斯特洛是好朋友。
Yeah.
是的。
Sorry to break it to you here.
很抱歉在这里打扰您。
Yeah, he had a good, long life and he went easy.
是的，他过着美好而漫长的生活，而且过得很轻松。
But he had a circadian clock that basically would just sleep around 24 hours a day, minimal activity interspersed every third day or so.
但他的生物钟基本上每天只睡 24 小时左右，每隔三天左右进行一次最少的活动。
You do have this morning vigor.
你确实有这个早晨的活力。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And that I think other people are going to have more of an afternoon vigor.
我认为其他人下午会更有活力。
Do you think that this can change across the lifespan?
您认为这会在整个生命周期中发生变化吗？
The rumor is that teenagers naturally want to sleep in later and stay up later.
有传言说，青少年自然想睡得晚、睡得晚。
Do you think that's social rhythm, or do you think that that's actually biological?
你认为这是社会节奏，还是你认为这实际上是生物节奏？
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Yeah, that's a tough question.
是的，这是一个很难回答的问题。
I mean it could be both.
我的意思是两者都有可能。
One thing that worries me is that it seems that if anything, with age this morning rhythm rigor gets stronger.
让我担心的一件事是，如果有什么不同的话，那就是随着年龄的增长，今天早上节奏的严格性会变得更强。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You mean you want people become more of morning people.
你的意思是你希望人们成为早起的人。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
More morning.
更早一点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Why does that worry you?
为什么你会担心？
I think that's good.
我认为这很好。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Because for me, I'm already very shifted morning.
因为对我来说，早上我已经很忙碌了。
I don't want to be one of these 7:00 p.m.
我不想成为晚上 7:00 的其中一员。
to 1:00 a.m.
至凌晨 1:00
sleepers at some point.
在某个时刻睡觉。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
On the other hand, also kind of nice because it's quiet and you can get work done.
另一方面，也很好，因为它很安静，你可以完成工作。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
But honestly from 4:30 till 7:30 when my wife wake up, it can be very lonely.
但老实说，从 4:30 到 7:30，当我妻子醒来时，会感到非常孤独。
Yes, you achieve a lot.
是的，你取得了很多成就。
But it's quiet outside so I don't want to be at 1:00 a.m.
但外面很安静，所以我不想在凌晨 1:00 出现。
Let's put it this way, I don't want it.
这么说吧，我不想要这样。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You can tell Samer is more social than I am.
你可以看出萨默比我更善于交际。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
That's right.
没错。
That is true.
确实如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But we should touch on that actually.
但我们实际上应该触及这一点。
So your wife is, she follows a different schedule.
所以你的妻子是，她遵循不同的时间表。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And so the social rhythm is important, I think.
所以我认为社交节奏很重要。
What should we do?
我们应该做什么？
How should we conceptualize, and how should we adjust ourselves according to the social part?
我们应该如何去思考，如何根据社会的情况来调整自己？
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
I honestly love this hypothesis that people came up with and Pat's kids reminded me of.
老实说，我很喜欢人们提出的这个假设，帕特的孩子们也让我想起了这个假设。
Because kids are really going to disrupt your sleep-wake cycle.
因为孩子真的会扰乱你的睡眠-觉醒周期。
It seems like there is a chrono attraction, that usually people who attract each others have actually different sleep-wake schedule.
似乎存在一种时间吸引力，通常相互吸引的人实际上有不同的睡眠-觉醒时间表。
And the idea being is that this allows them to take care of their kids throughout the day/night cycle.
我们的想法是，这使他们能够在白天/晚上的循环中照顾他们的孩子。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And have a peaceful marriage.
并拥有和平的婚姻。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
And have a peaceful marriage anyway, right?
无论如何，都有一个和平的婚姻，对吧？
So I mean we didn't have kids, me and Rejji, so maybe this is, but it seems like evolutionary, it makes sense that if you want to protect your kids, you don't want everybody to be morning vigor and then the kids don't have, so you want it distributed across.
所以我的意思是我们没有孩子，我和雷吉，所以也许是这样，但这似乎是进化的，这是有道理的，如果你想保护你的孩子，你不希望每个人都有早晨的活力，然后孩子们没有，所以你希望它分布在各处。
It makes sense.
这是有道理的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's a reasonable argument.
这是一个合理的论点。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I've heard that one of the reasons that people think that the clock is not exactly 24 hours, but it's 24 hours, plus or minus 20 minutes or so.
我听说人们认为时钟不是精确的 24 小时的原因之一，但它是 24 小时，正负 20 分钟左右。
Is because we believe that we evolved in clans or groups, villages, whatever, that were about a hundred to two hundred people.
是因为我们相信我们是在大约一百到两百人的氏族、团体、村庄等中进化而来的。
And in order to have protection around the early morning hours when we're vulnerable to predation, and in the late night hours, that you would want some individuals of our species to be naturally more like night owls and some more early people.
为了在我们容易被捕食的清晨和深夜得到保护，你会希望我们物种中的一些个体天生更像夜猫子和一些更早的人。
So your theory of parenting is similar in that way.
所以你们的养育理论在这方面是相似的。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The social rhythm is a powerful rhythm though.
不过，社会节奏是一种强大的节奏。
Meaning if I go out and I'm tired, let's say I'm tired at 9:30, I don't want to go out.
意思是如果我出去累了，假设我在 9:30 累了，我就不想出去了。
I'm going to need it.
我会需要它。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Can I just say something about that?
我可以简单说一下吗？
I think the social rhythm is powerful at the obvious levels.
我认为社会节奏在显而易见的层面上是强大的。
It affects your sleep, it affects how much you wake up or eat.
它会影响您的睡眠，影响您起床或进食的量。
But I'm not so sure is as powerful as people think on the clock.
但我不太确定时钟是否像人们想象的那么强大。
Now eventually it'll mess up the clock because now if you're doing a lot of social at night, getting enough light, eating at the wrong time of the day, eventually you're going to have an effect.
现在最终它会打乱时钟，因为现在如果你在晚上进行大量的社交活动，获得足够的光线，在一天中错误的时间吃饭，最终你会产生影响。
But I don't think just the social interactions themself have been shown to affect your clock very strongly, for some reason.
但出于某种原因，我认为社交互动本身并不仅仅对你的生物钟有很大的影响。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's good to know.
很高兴知道这一点。
Well, for people hearing this, they're probably getting the impression I'm the night owl and then Samer is the one that's in bed at nine and then wakes up at four.
好吧，对于听到这句话的人来说，他们可能会觉得我是夜猫子，而萨默则是九点上床睡觉、四点起床的人。
But having attended many meetings with Samer, I can tell you that he's the party animal.
但在参加过萨默的多次会议后，我可以告诉你，他是派对狂。
So let's talk about that.
那么我们来谈谈这个吧。
I mean, let's talk about the fact that you're the partier who's up until 2:00 dancing at these various meetings, which I've seen.
我的意思是，让我们来谈谈这样一个事实：您是一个在我见过的各种会议上跳舞到 2:00 的聚会者。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You're actually a good dancer, I'm told.
有人告诉我，你实际上是一个很好的舞者。
But what should we do when we do stay up very late for whatever reason?
但是，当我们因为某种原因熬夜时该怎么办呢？
Could be because we had to take a midnight trip to the hospital, an unfortunate reason.
可能是因为我们不得不半夜去医院，这是一个不幸的原因。
Or it could be because you're in the presence of people that you don't see very often, and you go out for a really nice night out on the town and you get to sleep around 2:30 or 3:00 in the morning.
或者可能是因为您和不常见面的人在一起，您出去在城里度过了一个非常美好的夜晚，然后在凌晨 2:30 或 3:00 左右入睡。
How should one get back on schedule?
应该如何回到计划中？
Do you force yourself to then get up and view light at the normal time that you would get up and view light?
您是否强迫自己在正常起床查看光线的时间起床查看光线？
Or do you allow yourself to sleep in?
或者你允许自己睡懒觉吗？
What's the optimal power.
最佳功率是多少。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
I would allow myself to sleep in and remember this is a long-term effect.
我会让自己睡个懒觉，并记住这是一个长期的影响。
This is something that you live with for a long period.
这是你长期忍受的事情。
And remember I told you about the experiments we did with the mood.
请记住我告诉过你我们对情绪所做的实验。
These required two weeks of that light schedule to cause mood disturbances.
这些需要两周的轻松日程才会导致情绪紊乱。
So these don't happen just in a single day.
所以这些并不是一天之内发生的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So this is the way you justify staying out late every once in a while.
所以这就是你偶尔熬夜的理由。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Well, in the meetings you've seen me, I've done this for five or six days continuously.
嗯，在你见过的我的会议中，我已经连续这样做了五六天。
But what you didn't see that when I came back to my home, it took me two weeks, as if I did a jet lag.
但你没有看到的是，当我回到家时，我花了两周的时间，就像我倒时差一样。
So I really do suffer for two weeks after doing a six crazy night of staying up at night, drinking at the wrong time of the day.
所以，在经历了六个疯狂的熬夜、在一天中错误的时间喝酒之后，我确实痛苦了两周。
So it's not that I'm completely okay with it, when I go back, everything goes back.
所以我并不是完全同意，当我回去时，一切都会回去。
It takes me actually literally two weeks to recover from the circadian rhythm meeting that you've seen me partying at some point.
实际上，我花了两周时间才从昼夜节律会议中恢复过来，你已经看到我在某个时候参加聚会了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Which is kind of ironic, the circadian rhythm meeting people are totally disrupting the circadian cycle, but scientists are human beings too.
有点讽刺的是，人类的昼夜节律完全打乱了昼夜节律，但科学家也是人。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
So I think if you do it at very little occasions, I think you should not worry too much that this will have lasting impact.
所以我认为如果你在很少的场合这样做，我认为你不应该太担心这会产生持久的影响。
And the good news is that if you readjust your schedule, you could come back to it.
好消息是，如果你重新调整你的日程安排，你就可以重新开始。
The problem is when you maintain these wrong schedule for prolonged team and becomes chronic.
问题是，当你为长期团队维持这些错误的时间表并变得慢性时。
Prolonged periods of time, that's when you have the problems and the accumulation of the problems.
时间长了，问题就会出现，问题就会不断积累。
So when you have sleeping problem, you produce metabolic problem.
所以当你有睡眠问题时，你就会产生新陈代谢问题。
When you have metabolic problems, you produce lack of exercise, and you could see how things can spiral out very quickly, and then it would be hard to come back to it.
当你有新陈代谢问题时，你就会缺乏运动，你会发现事情会很快恶化，然后就很难再回到原来的状态。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well certainly sleep disruption is both a symptom of and ...
当然，睡眠中断既是一种症状，也是......
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
A cause of almost all mental health disorders.
几乎所有精神健康障碍的原因。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
And certainly the metabolic syndromes that people are talking about nowadays, and all of this.
当然还有人们现在谈论的代谢综合症，以及所有这些。
It all funnels back to light.
这一切都回到了光明。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
This is what's so remarkable.
这就是非常了不起的地方。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And so we have these devices, and I use my phone and I use my computer.
所以我们有这些设备，我使用手机和电脑。
But do you think that the mere dimming of the screen or not interacting with screens after, with say 90 minutes or two hours before bedtime, according to what we're saying today, this should have a profound effect on these factors.
但你是否认为，根据我们今天所说的，仅仅在睡前 90 分钟或两个小时后调暗屏幕或不与屏幕互动，就会对这些因素产生深远的影响。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
And it does.
确实如此。
And I really believe it does.
我真的相信确实如此。
Again, I think as Pat has did these inventions where you get a pouch where you put your phone in a pouch.
再说一次，我认为帕特做了这些发明，你可以得到一个袋子，你可以把手机放在袋子里。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So what Samer's referring to is our friend Pat, this former SEAL team member, that, who's also very impressive person in the landscape of business and family, et cetera, real a superhuman from by any regard, has this habit of taking his phone and putting it into a sealed pouch in the evening.
所以萨默指的是我们的朋友帕特，这位前海豹突击队成员，在商业和家庭等方面也是一个令人印象深刻的人，无论从哪个方面来看，他都是一个真正的超人，他有这样的习惯：在晚上拿起手机并将其放入密封袋中。
So it's basically a wall.
所以它基本上是一堵墙。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
He sends you actually these sealed pouches.
他实际上给你寄了这些密封的袋子。
And so that I think is a great idea because not only it'll take away the light from you, but it also take away the distraction.
所以我认为这是一个好主意，因为它不仅会带走你的光芒，还会带走你的分心。
Because you want to repair and recover, and sleep does that.
因为你想要修复和恢复，而睡眠就能做到这一点。
And if you have your phone dinging all the time or the light flashing from it.
如果您的手机一直响个不停或者指示灯一直闪烁。
It's just not getting enough sleep, and you're causing yourself major problems.
只是睡眠不足，会给自己带来严重的问题。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd never asked you this, but I realized now that I should have long ago, but I'll ask you now.
我从来没有问过你这个问题，但我现在意识到我早就应该问你了，但我现在会问你。
Why and how did you get into all this stuff?
你为什么以及如何涉足这些领域？
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Yeah, I mean, honestly, first of all, I wanted to study genetics, and I knew I wanted to do PhD in genetics.
是的，我的意思是，老实说，首先，我想研究遗传学，而且我知道我想攻读遗传学博士学位。
But I only got accepted in one university at the time.
但当时我只被一所大学录取。
And I joined the learning and memory lab, and I liked learning and memory at the beginning.
然后我就加入了学习与记忆实验室，一开始我就很喜欢学习与记忆。
I worked on the snails and lymnaea and started looking at learning and memory, but then the same lab was looking at this daily variation.
我对蜗牛和蜗牛进行了研究，并开始研究学习和记忆，但随后同一个实验室开始研究这种日常变化。
I was really struck, you never think about it outside of science.
我真的很震惊，你从来没有在科学之外思考过这个问题。
It really struck me that organisms can measure day biologically.
令我震惊的是，生物体可以用生物学的方法来测量白天。
That was very shocking to me.
这让我非常震惊。
And I just really got attracted, and I wanted to see why does this happen?
我真的被吸引了，我想看看为什么会发生这种情况？
What is the effect of different times of day?
一天中不同时间的作用是什么？
And I just stuck with it.
我就坚持了下来。
It was mind blowing for me who was in medical school that I've never heard about it before.
对于在医学院就读的我来说，我以前从未听说过这件事，这真是令人震惊。
It's really amazing medicine.
这真是一种神奇的药。
I think still now, we are very good at looking at stuff spatially, but we are very bad at looking at temporal aspects.
我认为现在我们仍然非常擅长从空间角度看待事物，但我们非常不擅长从时间角度看待事物。
So we always like to see images, static images, spatial information.
所以我们总是喜欢看图像，静态图像，空间信息。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Take an x-ray, measure a temperature, measure a blood pressure.
拍 X 光片、测量体温、测量血压。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Exactly right.
完全正确。
But we don't think of temporal and, you know, talk to John Hogenesch right now, and he's telling you the importance of chronomedicine, or chronopharma, pharma, whatever the word is.
但我们不考虑时间，你知道，现在与 John Hogenesch 交谈，他正在告诉你 chronomedicine，或 chronopharma，pharma，无论这个词是什么。
And it really just getting the drugs at the right time of the day is going to be essential for our health.
事实上，在一天中的正确时间服用药物对我们的健康至关重要。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do you think that's going to come from using better trackers like Oura Rings, Whoop Straps, these kinds of things?
你认为这会来自于使用更好的追踪器，比如大浦环、呼呼带等？
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
I love the trackers, but I think there's even more exciting discoveries now.
我喜欢追踪器，但我认为现在有更令人兴奋的发现。
You could take a single blood sample and measure many biological components and figure where you are in the circadian clock.
您可以采集一份血液样本并测量许多生物成分，并计算出您在生物钟中的位置。
Something that was very hard to do before.
以前很难做到的事情。
So if you have a marker to know where you are in the clock, you could actually understand more the effect of everything.
因此，如果你有一个标记来知道你在时钟中的位置，你实际上可以更多地了解一切的影响。
Exercise, feeding, light input.
锻炼、喂食、光输入。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What is the marker?
标记是什么？
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
So there are some papers from, what's her name, Phyllis Zee, and from Kramer, where they measure multiple RNAs that are known to tell you what phase of the clock is, or multiple proteins or biological reactions.
因此，有一些来自 Phyllis Zee 和 Kramer 的论文，他们测量了多种 RNA，这些 RNA 可以告诉你生物钟处于哪个阶段，或者多种蛋白质或生物反应。
And depending on a combination of factor, not a single factor, you could tell where you are in the clock.
根据多种因素的组合，而不是单一因素，你可以知道你在时钟中的位置。
So they could, instead of just measuring temperature or melatonin, just one measurement.
因此，他们不仅可以测量温度或褪黑激素，还可以只测量一项。
And melatonin specifically is also complicated by the fact that melatonin is affected by light and temperature.
褪黑激素特别复杂，因为褪黑激素受光和温度的影响。
Your temperature and sleep can be easily dissociable, right?
你的体温和睡眠很容易脱节，对吧？
When you travel across different times on your sleep at different times in the temperature cycle.
当你在温度循环的不同时间穿越不同的睡眠时间时。
So having multiple components measured will give you a better determination of your circadian phase.
因此，测量多个成分将使您更好地确定昼夜节律阶段。
And understanding your circadian phase in humans will tell you what is the effect of giving certain drugs at certain times of the circadian phase.
了解人类的昼夜节律阶段将告诉您在昼夜节律阶段的某些时间给予某些药物的效果如何。
So in the future, this is going to be studied at a much higher level when you can determine the face in relation to all the other stuff.
所以在未来，当你可以确定与所有其他东西相关的面孔时，这将在更高的水平上进行研究。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's striking to me that in all animals besides humans, if they deviate too much from the appropriate exposure to light and light dark cycle, they essentially don't mate and/or die and/or get killed off.
令我惊讶的是，除了人类之外的所有动物，如果它们过多地偏离适当的光照和光暗周期，它们基本上不会交配和/或死亡和/或被杀死。
But in humans, we are able to override that, at least to some extent.
但对于人类来说，我们至少在某种程度上能够克服这一点。
But the ways in which we suffer appear to be things like obesity, metabolic syndromes, reproductive syndromes that are accompanying the other syndromes, endocrine syndromes and mood and depressive disorders.
但我们遭受痛苦的方式似乎是肥胖、代谢综合症、生殖综合症以及其他综合症、内分泌综合症以及情绪和抑郁症。
Is there any effort at the level of the ...
有没有在...的层面上做出努力？
nationally, or laboratories that you're aware of, to try and use light in order to improve mood and mental health?
国家或您知道的实验室是否尝试使用光来改善情绪和心理健康？
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
I mean, honestly, this is my mood.
说实话，这就是我的心情。
This is the thing that I think people, because it's, I say don't take your pill, take a photon.
这就是我认为人们的事情，因为我说不要吃药，吃光子。
And not, I mean you take pills; it's important.
不是，我的意思是你吃药；这很重要。
I'm just making it that really we have an opportunity right now with the incredible advances of LED lights, of changing spectra of light, of regulating intensities.
我只是想说，随着 LED 灯、改变光谱和调节强度的令人难以置信的进步，我们现在确实有机会。
And just for simple changes, you could really improve sleep-wake cycle productivity, and still you could actually get more done.
只需进行简单的改变，您就可以真正提高睡眠-觉醒周期的生产力，而且实际上您仍然可以完成更多工作。
Because as we've talked about, when you have all these messed up, now you have to sleep more, but your sleep is fragmented; it's not very good.
因为正如我们谈到的，当你把这些都搞乱了，现在你必须睡更多，但你的睡眠是碎片化的；这不太好。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And you can't focus.
而且你无法集中注意力。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
You can't focus when you don't have alertness, when you need the alertness.
当你没有警觉性时，当你需要警觉性时，你就无法集中注意力。
So having all these, you could allow you to do even more actually at the end than less.
因此，有了这些，你最终可以让自己做得更多，而不是做得更少。
And that's the.
就是这样。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
To do even more actually at the end than less.
最后实际上做的更多而不是更少。
And that's the exciting part of it.
这就是其中令人兴奋的部分。
PART 3 OF 4 ENDS Andrew Huberman:
第 3 部分（共 4 部分）结束 Andrew Huberman：
One of the questions I get asked most often about is about ADHD.
我最常被问到的问题之一是关于多动症（ADHD）。
You know, I think there's a lot of self-prescribed as well as clinically prescribed ADHD.
你知道，我认为有很多自我处方和临床处方的多动症。
People are having a tremendously difficult time focusing, and not just because they're sleepy, they just can't seem to anchor their attention.
人们很难集中注意力，不仅仅是因为他们很困，而且他们似乎无法集中注意力。
And there could be multiple reasons for this, but there are now several clinical trials ongoing using light to try and anchor people's attention and mood and well-being, for sake of focus.
造成这种情况的原因可能有多种，但目前正在进行多项临床试验，利用光来尝试锚定人们的注意力、情绪和幸福感，以提高注意力。
And I think that while I love this saying that you mentioned: "Take a photon, not a pill," and with due respect to the need for pharmacology for certain people, I think most people just haven't really dialed in their relationship to light in a way that allows them to rule out whether or not they need medication.
我认为，虽然我喜欢你提到的这句话：“服用光子，而不是药丸”，并且适当尊重某些人对药理学的需求，但我认为大多数人只是没有真正调整他们与光的关系，以允许他们排除是否需要药物治疗。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
Absolutely.
绝对地。
That's the best way to put it.
这是最好的说法。
I can't add to that.
我无法补充这一点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Let's talk about jet lag, but not in the context of, okay, if somebody's traveling from Europe to Japan, or from the East Coast, because that varies tremendously, right?
我们来谈谈时差，但不是在这个背景下，好吧，如果有人从欧洲到日本，或者从东海岸旅行，因为这差别很大，对吧？
I mean there's as many different variations on travel as there are individuals out there, and with goals and jobs, et cetera.
我的意思是，旅行有多少种不同的变化，有多少个人，就有多少种不同的目标和工作，等等。
But rather, let's talk about what are the two or three things that people can do to adjust their schedule quickly.
相反，我们来谈谈人们可以做哪些两三件事来快速调整他们的日程安排。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yesterday I called you and said, "Look, I know somebody who's traveling six hours." I won't even mention in which direction because I don't want people to anchor to that example.
昨天我打电话给你说：“听着，我认识一个要旅行六个小时的人。”我什至不会提及哪个方向，因为我不希望人们固定在这个例子上。
And you described some very simple tools of viewing light a little bit earlier than normal and getting on the local food schedule, et cetera, that would allow them to shift more quickly.
您描述了一些非常简单的工具，可以比正常情况早一点观察光线并遵守当地的食物时间表等等，这将使它们能够更快地转变。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And the reason I want to have this conversation is, yes, for the travelers and for the shift workers, but mostly because of the fact that you've proven again and again that people are disrupted in their circadian behavior at home.
是的，我想进行这次对话的原因是为了旅行者和轮班工人，但主要是因为你一次又一次地证明人们在家里的昼夜节律行为受到了干扰。
So what are the, aside from what we've already talked about, how can one adjust quickly to a new schedule?
那么，除了我们已经讨论过的内容之外，我们如何才能快速适应新的日程安排呢？
Like let's say fall classes are starting, you start a new job, or you have a baby or a puppy or whatever.
比如说秋季课程开始了，你开始了一份新工作，或者你有了一个婴儿或一只小狗或其他什么。
What is the best way to shift the clock quickly?
快速调整时钟的最佳方法是什么？
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
So it's very simple as we've talked yesterday.
正如我们昨天所说，这非常简单。
So imagine you're in the outside with no environmental, with no industrial light.
因此，想象一下您在没有环境、没有工业照明的室外。
If your body thinks you are in early evening and you see a bright light, what does this tell you?
如果您的身体认为您正处于傍晚并且您看到明亮的光线，这告诉您什么？
Oh wait, this is not early evening yet.
哦等等，现在还不是傍晚。
It's still early afternoon or late afternoon, so I have to delay my clock to go back to late afternoon.
现在还是下午早些时候或傍晚，所以我必须推迟时钟才能回到下午晚些时候。
So if you get light early in the evening, it delays your clock.
因此，如果您在晚上较早天亮，您的生物钟就会延迟。
So what does-
那么什么是-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Meaning that it makes you want to go to sleep later.
这意味着它会让你想晚点睡觉。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Yes, it delays your clock.
是的，它会延迟你的时钟。
So you are in New York, right?
那么你在纽约，对吗？
People in Italy have an advanced clock because they are six hours ahead of us.
意大利人拥有先进的时钟，因为他们比我们早六个小时。
So if you are in New York and you get light early in the evening, you delay even further from Italy.
因此，如果您在纽约并且傍晚天亮，那么您从意大利出发的时间就会延迟得更远。
So now you're delaying away from Italy.
所以现在你要推迟离开意大利了。
Now the same thing happens, let's say you thought dawn came up, and you thought it's already dawn, but it was let's say three o'clock in the morning or four o'clock in the morning.
现在同样的事情发生了，假设你以为黎明来了，你以为已经是黎明了，但假设是凌晨三点或凌晨四点。
And then you get a bright light, and you say, oh wait a minute, dawn is not up yet so I should advance my clock.
然后你看到一道明亮的光，你说，哦等一下，黎明还没有起来，所以我应该提前我的时钟。
Or at night, but I'm getting bright light so I should run because dawn is already up.
或者在晚上，但我的光线很亮，所以我应该跑步，因为黎明已经来临了。
So then later in the night, later in your night, and actually it just happens that humans, you get a temperature nadir later in the night, low temperature in your body, after that lights start advancing your clock.
所以，在深夜，在你的深夜，实际上，人类在深夜的晚些时候，你的体温会达到最低点，你的身体会处于低温，之后灯光开始提前你的生物钟。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
So if you want to go to Italy, instead of getting light early in the evening, you want to get light after the temperature low.
所以如果你想去意大利，不要在傍晚早起天亮，而是要在气温低后天亮。
So you could advance your clock even before you go to Italy, and you're catching up to the Italians just by using light.
所以你甚至可以在去意大利之前提前你的时钟，并且仅仅通过使用光你就可以赶上意大利人。
It's as simple as that.
就这么简单。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Great.
太棒了。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
So you could do it for every region.
所以你可以为每个地区做这件事。
You could calculate how much they are advanced of you.
你可以计算一下他们比你先进了多少。
You could know how much these light shifts happen per day and you can calculate what you need to do.
您可以知道这些光线变化每天发生多少，并且可以计算出您需要做什么。
Very simple math to adjust either in direction of delaying, if you're going from New York to California, you want to delay your clock, or advancing if you're going from New York to Italy.
非常简单的数学调整，如果你从纽约到加利福尼亚，你想延迟你的时钟，或者在延迟方向调整，或者如果你从纽约到意大利，则提前。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So in order to make that a visual, and because a lot of people are listening to this, not looking at it on video, we will put a zero-cost downloadable figure of this on the hubermanlab.com website related to this episode.
因此，为了使其成为视觉效果，并且因为很多人都在听它，而不是在视频中观看它，我们将在与本集相关的 hubermanlab.com 网站上放置一个零成本的可下载图。
But I think I can summarize it in language as well.
但我想我也可以用语言来概括它。
If I understand correctly, what you're saying is if your typical wake-up time is, say, 7:00 a.m.
如果我理解正确的话，您的意思是，您的典型起床时间是上午 7:00。
then your low point in temperature probably occurs somewhere around 5:00 a.m.
那么你的最低体温可能出现在凌晨 5:00 左右。
And if you view light right around then, it's going to essentially advance your clock.
如果你在那时看到光，它会本质上提前你的时钟。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Because then your body thinks, oh, it's seven o'clock, so advance your clock by one to two hours.
因为那时你的身体会想，哦，现在是七点了，所以把你的时钟提前一到两个小时。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But if I were to view light, say at 3:00 a.m., then it would probably delay my clock.
但如果我在凌晨 3:00 看到光，那么我的时钟可能会延迟。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
And then let's say I land in a new schedule, I want to adjust to a new schedule.
然后假设我进入了新的时间表，我想适应新的时间表。
Let's say I didn't manage to do anything with my light viewing before I went, I didn't anticipate the trip.
假设我去之前没有对光观察做任何事情，我没有预料到这次旅行。
Suddenly I'm on a new schedule.
突然我有了新的时间表。
I was told that one of the ways to help shift the clock and to avoid gastrointestinal issues is to eat on the local schedule, to start basically behaving like a local, even though your circadian clock will take a little bit of time to catch up.
有人告诉我，帮助改变生物钟和避免肠胃问题的方法之一就是按照当地的时间表进餐，开始基本上像当地人一样行事，即使你的生物钟需要一点时间才能跟上。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Right.
对。
Absolutely.
绝对地。
But you have to remember the light.
但你必须记住光线。
So now that we explained it very simply, let's take a very simple example, right?
既然我们已经解释得很简单了，那么我们就举一个非常简单的例子吧？
New York to Italy, that's a simple example.
纽约到意大利，这是一个简单的例子。
New York time, Italy time, six hour difference, right?
纽约时间，意大利时间，相差六个小时，对吧？
So let's say you fly from New York at night, you reach Italy at eight o'clock in the morning.
假设您晚上从纽约起飞，早上八点到达意大利。
What is the time in your New York time, although you reach-
你的纽约时间是几点，尽管你到达-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Six hours back.
六个小时前。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Six hours back.
六个小时前。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's 2:00 a.m.
现在是凌晨 2:00。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
It's 2:00 a.m.
现在是凌晨 2:00。
So when you land Italy, you want to avoid light like the plague.
所以当你登陆意大利时，你要像躲避瘟疫一样避开光线。
Yeah, you could eat, but you really don't want to get light.
是的，你可以吃东西，但你真的不想晒太阳。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right, cause otherwise it's going to delay you.
是的，不然会耽误你的。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Delay is going to send you to California instead of sending you to Italy.
延误会将您送往加利福尼亚而不是送往意大利。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And so this is such a key point.
所以这是一个关键点。
If anyone's confused about this, we will put some diagrams up.
如果有人对此感到困惑，我们会放一些图表。
But what Samer's saying is so crucial.
但萨默的话至关重要。
Just because getting bright light in your eyes early in the day is really beneficial when you're at home, when you travel to a new time zone, you have to take into account what your body thinks, excuse me, you have to take into account where your body thinks you are.
因为当你在家时，早上让明亮的光线进入你的眼睛确实有益，当你旅行到一个新的时区时，你必须考虑你的身体的想法，对不起，你必须考虑你的身体认为你在哪里。
And so if you're looking at the Italian sunrise having just flown from New York to Italy, and you didn't prepare for that trip by waking up a little bit earlier in anticipation-
因此，如果您刚刚从纽约飞往意大利，正在观看意大利日出，并且您没有提前起床来为这次旅行做好准备-
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Multiple days.
多日。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And you view light at 2:00 a.m., excuse me, at six or 7:00 a.m.
对不起，您在凌晨 2:00 看到光，请在早上 6 点或 7:00 看到光。
Italian time, beautiful Italian sunrise, you are going to delay your clock.
意大利时间，美丽的意大利日出，你要推迟你的时钟了。
You're going to basically throw yourself back to California, but you are in Italy.
你基本上会把自己扔回加利福尼亚，但你是在意大利。
You're going to throw your biology back to California, and you are going to be up in the middle of the Italian night and you're going to be miserable.
你会把你的生物学扔回加利福尼亚，你会在意大利的半夜起床，你会很痛苦。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'll tell a brief anecdote, because I called Samer in desperation a few years ago.
我会讲一个简短的轶事，因为几年前我在绝望中给萨默打电话。
I traveled to Abu Dhabi, NYU Abu Dhabi, to give a seminar, 12 hours out of phase; it's a 12-hour flip.
我前往阿布扎比，纽约大学阿布扎比分校，举办一个研讨会，有 12 个小时的时间间隔；这是一个12小时的翻转。
And I thought I could just muscle it.
我想我可以用肌肉来实现。
I thought, I'll get up, just view sunlight when the sun comes up.
我想，等太阳升起的时候，我就起床，看看阳光。
And I fell apart mentally and physically, and Samer came to my rescue.
我的精神和身体都崩溃了，萨默拯救了我。
I called him, I said, "I don't know what to do," and he said, "Go to the gym at the local dawn, work out, eat, and then view sunlight starting the next day." And that basically got me onto schedule.
我打电话给他，我说，“我不知道该怎么办，”他说，“在当地黎明时分去健身房，锻炼，吃饭，然后从第二天开始看阳光。”这基本上让我按计划进行了。
So I used food and exercise to adjust myself, because my light-viewing activity was just completely out of whack.
所以我通过食物和运动来调整自己，因为我的光视活动完全不正常。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Yeah.
是的。
And we talked about other details, so you have to calculate it, but you're absolutely right.
我们还讨论了其他细节，所以你必须计算它，但你是绝对正确的。
I mean, it's very important to avoid getting the wrong light information when you're trying to adjust your body; because otherwise it shifts you to the other side.
我的意思是，当你尝试调整身体时，避免获得错误的光线信息非常重要；因为否则它会把你转移到另一边。
Absolutely right.
完全正确。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, you are one of these people that has such vigor.
嗯，你就是这些有如此活力的人之一。
It's one of these things where having known you all these years, you have a tremendous capacity for work and for soccer and for arguing, respectful arguing.
其中之一就是认识你这么多年，你有巨大的工作能力、足球能力、辩论能力，尊重的辩论能力。
And sometimes it's-
有时是——
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Getting worse with the age.
随着年龄的增长越来越差。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah well, we could talk about that offline.
是的，我们可以线下讨论这个问题。
But I think a lot of your vigor, and a lot of your ability to work hard and focus and really do so many things at an impressive level, is because you think about these issues, and you think about when you're going to be optimal for focus.
但我认为你的很多活力，以及你努力工作和专注的能力，以及真正以令人印象深刻的水平做很多事情的能力，都是因为你思考这些问题，并且你思考什么时候你才能最集中注意力。
When you're going to be optimal for exercise, when, and the "when" is the key.
当你要进行最佳锻炼时，“何时”是关键。
And I think a lot of people live in the landscape of feeling like there's something broken inside them because they can't focus or they can't-
我认为很多人生活在这样的环境中，感觉自己内心有什么东西破碎了，因为他们无法集中注意力，或者他们不能-
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
It's subconscious, remember, it's all subconscious, these effects.
这是潜意识的，记住，这些影响都是潜意识的。
And you're absolutely right.
你是完全正确的。
Now, honestly, joking aside about age, I really agree with you that I think part of the reason I'm continuing to be able to do this, that I really think about it and I make sure that I keep everything aligned and that actually helps me a lot.
现在，老实说，抛开年龄的玩笑，我真的同意你的观点，我认为我能够继续做到这一点的部分原因是，我认真考虑了这一点，并确保我保持一切一致，这实际上对我有很大帮助。
I don't suffer in sleep.
我在睡眠中不会感到痛苦。
I don't suffer in waking up.
我醒来时并不感到痛苦。
I never use a timer to wake up.
我从不使用定时器来叫醒。
I mean, people say, "Aren't you scared, like, you have to give a lecture at eight or 7:30?" Honestly, I was like, there is no way I'm going to go beyond that.
我的意思是，人们会说，“你不害怕吗，比如，你必须在八点或七点 30 分演讲？”老实说，我当时想，我无法超越这一点。
Just even if I try, I can't sleep beyond 6:00 a.m.
即使我尽力了，早上 6:00 以后我也无法入睡。
in my regular times.
在我平常的时候。
It's just, it's not going to happen; by 4:30 my eyes are wide awake and I'm in bed.
只是，这不会发生；到了 4 点 30 分，我的眼睛就完全清醒了，我已经上床睡觉了。
It's just system is so aligned, it works.
只是系统如此一致，它才有效。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
A lot of times people will say, "How come I go to sleep, I fall asleep fine, but then I wake up at three or four in the morning and can't fall back asleep?" Is it possible that those people were supposed to go to bed at 8:00 p.m.?
很多时候人们会说：“怎么我睡着了，睡得好好的，可是到了凌晨三四点就醒了，再也睡不着了？”难道那些人应该在晚上 8:00 睡觉吗？
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
It's possible.
这是有可能的。
I mean, it is possible.
我的意思是，这是可能的。
It is also possible that sometimes people will wake up and go back to sleep.
有时人们也可能会醒来并重新入睡。
But yeah, I mean it is possible, or it's possible that their clock is completely misaligned, that they are getting maybe a naptime at night when they are supposed, and then they possibly feel so sleepy in the day.
但是，是的，我的意思是有可能，或者有可能他们的时钟完全错位，他们可能在晚上小睡，然后他们在白天可能会感到很困。
So there all these are possible combinations.
所以所有这些都是可能的组合。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, that's an interesting idea I hadn't considered.
嗯，这是一个有趣的想法，我没有考虑过。
So that what they think is their sleep, their body is so out of whack with the light dark cycle that it's actually a nap.
所以他们认为这是他们的睡眠，他们的身体与明暗周期如此不协调，这实际上是小睡。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
A nap.
小睡一下。
Or the weaker part of the sleep.
或者睡眠中较弱的部分。
I mean, you see this in when you travel to different time zones before you adjust, you go to sleep really well, but two hours later you're fully up.
我的意思是，当你去不同的时区旅行时，在你调整之前，你睡得很好，但两个小时后你就完全起床了。
Two hours.
两个小时。
If you were so tired and this is your regular sleep, there's no way you're going to wake up in two hours.
如果你太累了，而这就是你的常规睡眠，那么你不可能在两个小时内醒来。
So then you feel very sleepy later in the day, or something like that.
然后你会在当天晚些时候感到非常困倦，或者类似的感觉。
So it depends of how your whole system is aligned to the environment.
因此，这取决于您的整个系统如何与环境保持一致。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's a very interesting idea.
这是一个非常有趣的想法。
I think that's going to resonate with a lot of people.
我认为这会引起很多人的共鸣。
I wake up every morning around three or four, I generally use the bathroom and then I fall back asleep very, very deeply.
我每天早上三四点左右醒来，我通常会去洗手间，然后我会睡得很沉很沉。
Doesn't seem to disrupt my daytime wakefulness.
似乎并没有扰乱我白天的清醒。
And I think a lot of people obsess over that waking up and worry there's something wrong.
我认为很多人都对醒来感到困扰，并担心出了什么问题。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Provided they can go back to sleep, it's okay.
只要他们能回去睡觉就没关系。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Exactly.
正是如此。
If you can go use the bathroom, go back to sleep, that should not be a problem.
如果你可以去洗手间，然后回去睡觉，那应该不是问题。
Maybe some people when they go to use the bathroom, they use very bright light and then they get an alerting signal.
也许有些人去上厕所时，会使用非常亮的光，然后他们会收到警报信号。
So if you, maybe that could be as simple as that.
所以如果你的话，也许事情就这么简单。
That affects you.
这会影响你。
Maybe when you wake up, you put tons of light or you start reading your iPad.
也许当你醒来时，你会打开大量的灯光或者开始阅读 iPad。
So there's all these combination that we still don't know about, that could be affecting their sleep wake rhythms and their sleep maintenance.
因此，我们仍然不知道所有这些组合可能会影响他们的睡眠觉醒节律和睡眠维持。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do you use melatonin?
你用褪黑激素吗？
Do you take melatonin?
你服用褪黑激素吗？
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
I don't need it, to be honest.
老实说，我不需要它。
In my case, there is no reason to use it because I could guarantee you that by maybe eight o'clock, my melatonin has already started to go up and by the time I sleep, my melatonin is very high because I don't use a lot of lights after sunset.
就我而言，没有理由使用它，因为我可以向你保证，也许到八点钟，我的褪黑激素已经开始上升，当我睡觉时，我的褪黑激素非常高，因为日落后我不会使用很多灯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And light inhibits melatonin.
光会抑制褪黑激素。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Lights really blocks melatonin level.
灯光确实会阻碍褪黑激素水平。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You hear this myth that the pineal gland calcifies as we get older; is that, do you know anything about that?
你可能听说过这样一个神话：随着年龄的增长，松果体会钙化。就是这样，你知道吗？
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
I mean, I've heard about that, but I don't know what does, I mean there's not very clear evidence that affects the sleep.
我的意思是，我听说过这个，但我不知道它是什么，我的意思是没有非常明确的证据会影响睡眠。
I don't know much about it, to be honest.
老实说，我对此了解不多。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, the evidence that I've seen is that, yes, there's some calcification around the pineal, just because of where it sits in the brain.
是的，我看到的证据是，是的，松果体周围有一些钙化，只是因为它位于大脑中的位置。
It's close to some bony structures.
它靠近一些骨骼结构。
But I don't think there's any evidence that it has negative effects
但我认为没有任何证据表明它有负面影响
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
I mean, if you still have, you could measure melatonin and that should tell you if it has negative, it's such an easy thing to do.
我的意思是，如果你还有，你可以测量褪黑激素，这应该会告诉你它是否呈阴性，这是一件很容易做到的事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think this is more of an Internet wellness thing that-
我认为这更像是互联网健康的事情——
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
I think that's possible.
我认为这是可能的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
got outside the cage.
出了笼子。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
I think you're absolutely right.
我认为你是完全正确的。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It sounds terrible.
听起来很可怕。
Calcification of the thing, right?
钙化的东西吧？
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Like the hard thing, right?
喜欢困难的事情，对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, exactly.
是的，完全正确。
Let's talk about seasonality a little bit.
让我们谈谈季节性。
I learned, and I don't know if this is still true, but that most suicides occur in April, in the spring.
我了解到，我不知道这是否仍然正确，但大多数自杀发生在四月的春天。
I think there's a poem that says April is the cruelest month.
我记得有一首诗说四月是最残酷的月份。
I think is the poem begins.
我想这是诗的开始。
Are there data that suicides are more frequent at particular times of year?
是否有数据表明自杀在一年中的特定时间更为频繁？
And if so, is the spring that time of year?
如果是的话，春天是一年中的那个时候吗？
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Yeah, I mean a lot of people talk about this, and one of the hypothesis is that the winter month, that are very bad for mood, make people not wanting to do anything, and they get into such deep level of depression that when the sun comes up, they get actually the energy to act on their depression, which sounds really terrible and it is terrible.
是的，我的意思是很多人都在谈论这个，其中一个假设是，冬季的月份对情绪非常不利，让人不想做任何事情，他们会陷入如此深层次的抑郁症，以至于当太阳升起时，他们实际上获得了能量来应对抑郁症，这听起来真的很可怕，也很可怕。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's terrible.
太可怕了。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
So that's the idea that the lack of light throughout the winter cause them to go into such depression that they don't feel like doing anything.
因此，整个冬天缺乏光线会导致他们陷入抑郁状态，以至于他们不想做任何事情。
Then when the light comes in with rigor in the spring, it gives them that, after all the depression they suffer, it gives them that push to take that sad final act, I guess.
然后，当春天的阳光严厉地照进来时，我想，在经历了所有的抑郁之后，它给了他们动力去采取悲伤的最后行动。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What other seasonal effects have been demonstrated in humans?
对人类还有哪些其他季节性影响？
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Yeah, I mean I think in humans, it's not very clear because we don't think about seasonality.
是的，我的意思是，我认为在人类中，这不是很清楚，因为我们不考虑季节性。
But if you start thinking about us, I think we go through major seasonal changes.
但如果你开始思考我们，我认为我们正在经历重大的季节性变化。
I really do.
我真的这么做。
I think our eating pattern change across the year.
我认为我们的饮食模式一年四季都会发生变化。
I could tell you that, me thinking about this, there is a clear changes that happens to me across the year.
我可以告诉你，考虑到这一点，这一年来我身上发生了明显的变化。
But for animals, this is really essential.
但对于动物来说，这确实是必要的。
Because for animals, they have to time their mating behavior with when they deliver their progeny in the most abundant amount of food.
因为对于动物来说，它们必须把交配行为的时间安排在食物最丰富的时候产下后代。
And artificial light is causing major disruption because if you change the way these animals are receiving the light information, they either start mating much earlier or much later, and their numbers dwindle and they get into the dangers of really completely getting eliminated or extinct.
人造光正在造成重大破坏，因为如果你改变这些动物接收光信息的方式，它们要么更早或更晚地开始交配，它们的数量就会减少，并陷入真正完全被消灭或灭绝的危险中。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, human birthrates are definitely going down.
嗯，人类的出生率肯定会下降。
I mean in the U.S. in particular.
我的意思是特别是在美国。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Some areas, not others.
有些地区，其他地区则不然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Not others right.
别人不对。
But are there other effects of seasonality on humans that you're aware of?
但您知道季节性对人类还有其他影响吗？
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Honestly, you could see it perfectly I think, in Scandinavia.
老实说，我认为在斯堪的纳维亚半岛你可以完美地看到它。
I mean you could talk to people who live in-
我的意思是你可以和住在-的人交谈
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm sure they get seasonal depression.
我确信他们会得季节性抑郁症。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
What, seasonal depression is one, but actually when you start asking them questions, they tell you in the winter they barely could wake up.
季节性抑郁症就是其中之一，但实际上当你开始问他们问题时，他们会告诉你在冬天他们几乎无法醒来。
They barely have the energy before even depression.
他们甚至在抑郁之前几乎没有精力。
Even people who don't get seasonal depression, they'll tell you our energy level is lower, our ability to go to work is not the same.
即使没有患季节性抑郁症的人，他们也会告诉你我们的精力水平较低，我们上班的能力也不一样。
And in the summer, most people actually sleep very little.
在夏天，大多数人实际上睡得很少。
They tell you, we really can, we feel like we are manic.
他们告诉你，我们真的可以，我们感觉自己很狂躁。
We have all this energy.
我们拥有所有这些能量。
And not in a negative way, in a funny way.
而且不是以一种消极的方式，而是以一种有趣的方式。
But if you want to sleep, we have to put these curtain.
但如果你想睡觉，我们就得把这些窗帘拉上。
I think in these situations you could really appreciate the seasonality of a humans.
我认为在这些情况下你可以真正体会到人类的季节性。
I think we kind of destroyed our seasonality because we don't get exposed to that much natural light.
我认为我们有点破坏了季节性，因为我们没有接触到那么多的自然光。
We have all this artificial light.
我们拥有所有这些人造光。
But I think honestly, one of the things that is going to happen if they follow your recommendations about giving light at the same time, giving food, giving exercise.
但老实说，我认为，如果他们遵循你关于同时提供光照、提供食物和锻炼的建议，将会发生的事情之一。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wait, let's be clear, those are your recommendations.
等等，让我们明确一下，这些是您的建议。
I'm just, just fair attribution.
我只是，只是公平的归因。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
What I'm saying is that this is going to cause them to also experience some changes across the season because now they going to see the sun differently.
我想说的是，这将导致他们在整个季节也会经历一些变化，因为现在他们会以不同的方式看待太阳。
If you are going to go out in the morning, in the summer, you're going to get the much brighter ...
如果你要在夏天早上出去，你会变得更加明亮......
that's why I don't like the change in time.
这就是为什么我不喜欢时间上的改变。
I know people think, "Oh, because you're biased," because I think-
我知道人们会想，“哦，因为你有偏见”，因为我认为——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wait, wait, wait, wait.
等等，等等，等等，等等。
Sorry.
对不起。
The change now you're talking about daylight savings?
您现在谈论的是夏令时的变化吗？
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Daylight savings.
夏令时。
It's such a bad idea because it disrupts that rhythm that you are having.
这是一个糟糕的主意，因为它破坏了你现有的节奏。
Because I think your body, if you keep that rhythm, you will see the whole seasonality.
因为我认为你的身体，如果你保持这种节奏，你就会看到整个季节性。
And I look at it from a different aspect than other people.
我从与其他人不同的角度来看待它。
It really, and people say, I'm biased because I'm a morning person.
人们说，我确实有偏见，因为我是一个早起的人。
And it may be true, but there's situation-
这可能是真的，但有一种情况——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Secret conspiracy about morning people.
关于早起的人的秘密阴谋。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
But is, if you think about it, Andrew, there is a situation where you are getting light perfectly well, and then all of a sudden they delayed by one hour because, and then even though it's the summer, your body now, if you're still not adjusting, think, "Oh wait, what happened?
但是，如果你想一想，安德鲁，有一种情况，你的光线非常好，然后突然他们延迟了一个小时，因为，即使现在是夏天，你的身体现在，如果你仍然没有调整，想一想，“哦等等，发生了什么事？
What kind of happened?"
到底发生了什么事？”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, I'm glad you're bringing this up because I always thought, what's the big deal?
好吧，我很高兴你提出这个问题，因为我一直在想，有什么大不了的？
One hour, right?
一小时吧？
One hour shift.
一小时轮班。
Spring forward, fall back.
向前春，向后退。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
It's so hard to adjust one hour, actually.
其实调整一个小时真的很难。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But this goes back to the beginning of our discussion.
但这又回到了我们讨论的开始。
It's not just one hour.
这不仅仅是一小时。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because it's one hour across that one day.
因为这一天只有一小时。
But there's this cumulative effect on the clock and these three elements of your tripartite model.
但时钟和三方模型的这三个元素会产生累积效应。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The homeostatic sleep, and the light direct effects on mood.
稳态睡眠和光线直接影响情绪。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
And when it's so close, it's sometimes hard to figure out how to adjust it perfectly because we are already sleep-deprived in our society.
当它如此接近时，有时很难弄清楚如何完美地调整它，因为我们的社会已经睡眠不足。
And then you shift it by, so it all accumulates and it has no benefit.
然后你把它转移，所以它全部积累起来，没有任何好处。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well you work at a major government organization, National Institute of Mental Health.
那么，您在一个主要的政府机构——国家心理健康研究所工作。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Why don't we campaign for-
我们为什么不竞选——
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Honestly, I have no idea.
老实说，我不知道。
I mean it makes no sense.
我的意思是这没有意义。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, I'm saying why don't we go campaign?
不，我是说我们为什么不去竞选呢？
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Yeah, I would love to, I mean it makes no sense to have the summer light goes up at 9:00 p.m.
是的，我很乐意，我的意思是让夏季灯光在晚上 9:00 亮起是没有意义的。
the light goes down where I live in Baltimore at 9:00 p.m., and then all of a sudden when you really want to see the light longer in the day, you now shift the other way.
我住在巴尔的摩的地方晚上 9:00 灯光就会熄灭，然后突然之间，当你真的想在一天中看到更长时间的灯光时，你现在就会转向另一个方向。
And now it goes all of a sudden at 6:00 p.m.
现在下午 6:00 突然发生了。
Why do you do these drastic changes?
你为什么要做这些巨大的改变？
Let it blend across the whole season.
让它融入整个季节。
Yes, later, earlier at night, but it's at least consistent.
是的，晚些时候，晚上早些时候，但至少是一致的。
It goes in a very consistent manner.
它以非常一致的方式进行。
I just don't understand why they do this.
我只是不明白他们为什么这样做。
It makes no sense.
这毫无意义。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, I think that the reason they do it is because they don't understand the biology.
嗯，我认为他们这样做的原因是因为他们不了解生物学。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because one hour seems trivial-
因为一小时似乎微不足道——
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
It's not.
事实并非如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Unless you understand the repercussions of that one-hour shift.
除非你了解一小时轮班的影响。
Because what's also clear now based on what you're saying, is that that one-hour shift is taking you out of alignment with the natural light dark cycle in exactly the wrong direction.
因为根据你所说的，现在也很清楚，一小时的转变会让你与自然明暗周期完全错误的方向不一致。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
It's pushing people to get even later in the summer when light is going to push you later anyway, it doesn't make sense.
它迫使人们在夏天变得更晚，而无论如何，光线会推动你更晚，这是没有意义的。
You put it beautifully, I just rambled and this is-
你说得很好，我只是胡言乱语，这是-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, no, you made it clear.
不不不，你已经说得很清楚了。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
I mean it's like, literally, it made you, it made people who are having problem, having an advanced sleep rhythm because they are delayed.
我的意思是，从字面上看，它让你，它让那些有问题的人因为延迟而拥有提前的睡眠节律。
Now you give them this hour to make them even more delayed, you push them even later in the day-night cycle.
现在你给他们这个时间，让他们更加延迟，你把他们推得更晚，在昼夜循环中。
It just doesn't make sense.
这根本没有意义。
At all.
完全没有。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think 2022 should be the year that we abolish daylight savings.
我认为2022年应该是我们废除夏令时的一年。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Ah man, that would be the day for me, honestly.
啊，老兄，老实说，那对我来说就是这一天。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well also, if it has a positive effect on the, what is essentially an epidemic of mental health issues and other issues related to improper interactions with light, that I think is a well worthwhile cause and-
好吧，如果它对精神健康问题和其他与光的不当相互作用有关的问题本质上的流行有积极的影响，我认为这是一个非常值得的事业，而且-
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
Absolutely.
绝对地。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And we can explore.
我们可以探索。
So for once we're going to fight with another group.
所以这一次我们要和另一支队伍战斗。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Common.
常见。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
A common battle as opposed to with one another.
一场共同的战斗，而不是彼此之间的战斗。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
I mean, the circadian people, honestly, to give them credit, have been trying for years to abolish daylight savings.
我的意思是，老实说，昼夜节律人士多年来一直在努力废除夏令时。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The problem is they all go to sleep at 9:00 p.m.
问题是他们都在晚上 9:00 睡觉。
and wake up at 4:00 a.m.
并于凌晨 4:00 起床
So we never see them.
所以我们从来没有见过他们。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, the circadian community has done an amazing job of figuring out what we need.
不，昼夜节律社区在弄清楚我们需要什么方面做得非常出色。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then the challenge of course, is making sure that people get what they need, and making sure that at a societal level we're not vaulting ourself into the wrong direction.
当然，挑战是确保人们得到他们需要的东西，并确保在社会层面上我们不会把自己推向错误的方向。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
And the biggest problem is that the late-waking people, they think that really, and I'm going to try to put it in a better way now, they think, "Oh, because you're a morning person, you want to see the sun early, so you want me to suffer it dropping late." But that's not the case.
最大的问题是那些起床晚的人，他们真的这么认为，我现在要尝试以更好的方式表达，他们认为，“哦，因为你是一个早起的人，你想早点看到太阳，所以你想让我忍受太阳落得很晚。”但事实并非如此。
Because what happens is when they shift it back after the daylight saving, now they're going to make you suffer really badly because now it's going to be earlier.
因为发生的情况是，当他们在夏令时后将其移回原位时，现在他们会让你非常痛苦，因为现在时间会更早。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In the fall.
在秋天。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
In the fall when there's not enough light if they keep it the same way.
在秋天，如果他们保持同样的方式，光线不足。
So to try to convince them that actually this, at the end, causes more trouble when you need the light for your late schedule in the fall, when they shift it back.
因此，要试图说服他们，实际上，当你在秋季晚些时候的日程安排中需要灯光时，当他们将其移回时，这最终会带来更多麻烦。
Then they say keep it daylight saving all the time.
然后他们说一直保持夏令时。
And that has been proven, that is very bad.
事实证明，这是非常糟糕的。
People have done studies that literally two areas close to each others and areas that were the whole year on daylight saving has much more problems even in cancer rates and depression.
人们所做的研究表明，实际上两个彼此接近的地区以及全年实行夏令时的地区甚至在癌症发病率和抑郁症方面也存在更多问题。
So you don't want to do that.
所以你不想这样做。
So that's what, trying to convince people that you need to prevent that switch, and you don't need daylight saving at all.
这就是为什么，试图说服人们你需要阻止这种转换，并且你根本不需要夏令时。
That's where the problem happens.
这就是问题发生的地方。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Interesting.
有趣。
I had not thought about that, but yes, you late risers that in the fall when that's, you fall back, as they say, spring forward, fall back, you dial back the clock.
我没有想过这一点，但是，是的，你们这些晚起的人，在秋天的时候，你们会倒退，正如他们所说，向前跳跃，向后倒退，你们把时钟拨回。
It's really compounding the problem that already exists.
这确实使已经存在的问题变得更加复杂。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Exactly, and it's really nice if you think keep it consistent; in the spring you get the long, when you get the equinox and then the days start going up, and then even in the summer start going down, and then the fall you get the other equinox and go back.
确实如此，如果您认为保持一致，那就太好了；在春天，你会得到长，当你到达春分时，然后白天开始上升，然后甚至在夏天，开始下降，然后秋天，你会遇到另一个春分，然后回去。
So it's very symmetrical.
所以它是非常对称的。
It goes into short day, longer, long, long, longer, and then short day again.
它进入短日，长日，长日，长日，长日，然后又短日。
But now you're getting these bumps in both sides of the spring and fall.
但现在你在春季和秋季都会遇到这些颠簸。
Why would you do that?
你为什么要这么做？
Something that is beautifully symmetrical, beautifully smooth.
美丽对称、美丽光滑的东西。
You're putting bumps into it.
你正在把颠簸放进去。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, and we ...
好吧，我们...
not just beautiful because it's there, but evolved.
美丽不仅仅因为它的存在，而且是进化而来的。
I mean essentially this is the system we evolved in for hundreds of thousands of years.
我的意思是，本质上这是我们进化了数十万年的系统。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
This is the seasonality.
这就是季节性。
Even apart from the exact equator.
即使不考虑确切的赤道。
Every part of the earth has seasonality.
地球的每个部分都有季节性。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I want to briefly touch on something which is individual and genetic variation in sensitivity to light.
我想简单谈谈对光敏感度的个体和遗传差异。
So not chronotype, but first of all, a very basic question.
所以不是时间类型，但首先，这是一个非常基本的问题。
Do people with light eyes, light-colored eyes, are they more sensitive to light than people with darker-pigmented eyes?
浅色眼睛的人比深色眼睛的人对光更敏感吗？
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
I mean, honestly, it makes sense they'll be more, because if you think of my dark pupil, it's blocking more light.
我的意思是，老实说，它们会更多是有道理的，因为如果你想到我的黑色瞳孔，它会阻挡更多的光线。
So if you have light pupil, yes, for vision, it may not be very obvious, but for something that is measuring the amount of light, you're getting more light than me.
所以如果你有光瞳，是的，对于视力来说，可能不是很明显，但是对于测量光量的东西来说，你得到的光比我多。
So you probably need less light to be effective as somebody who's darker.
因此，对于肤色较黑的人来说，您可能需要更少的光线才能发挥作用。
And that maybe could explain why sometimes lighter people say, "I don't want to go into very bright conditions," because it's really bright.
这或许可以解释为什么有时体重较轻的人会说，“我不想进入非常明亮的环境”，因为它真的很亮。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, I can't even be at a cafe with one of these reflective tables, like a metal table, unless I have very dark sunglasses on.
是的，我什至不能在咖啡馆里放一张反光桌子，比如金属桌子，除非我戴上很黑的太阳镜。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So bright, it's painful for me.
如此明亮，对我来说是痛苦的。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Whereas some people like you, we've sat outside and have meals in here like, fine.
虽然有些人像你一样，但我们坐在外面在这里吃饭，很好。
I assumed it was kind of Jordanian toughness versus-
我以为这是约旦人的强硬对抗——
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
No, it's really the pupil blocks more light.
不，实际上是瞳孔阻挡了更多的光线。
So I think it is possible that it's as simple as the pupil blocking more light can have sensitivity.
所以我认为这可能很简单，因为瞳孔阻挡更多的光线可以具有敏感性。
But your question is also goes deeper.
但你的问题也更深入。
Are there more sensitivity differences?
是否有更多的敏感性差异？
And my understanding would be, I would think that it may be, depends on how effective your cells are in responding to light, how healthy your ipRGCs are, but there's not many studies to show that.
我的理解是，我认为这可能取决于你的细胞对光的反应有多有效，你的 ipRGC 有多健康，但没有太多研究表明这一点。
What is really clear that is happening is that patients with bipolar, they seem to have different sensitivities to light.
真正清楚的是，双相情感障碍患者似乎对光有不同的敏感性。
So it seems that at least people who have psychological changes, they may have differences to the sensitivity of light.
所以看来，至少有心理变化的人，对光的敏感度可能会有差异。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Are those differences in a particular direction?
这些差异是在某个特定方向吗？
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
I don't remember the exact direction.
我不记得确切的方向了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We'll have to, we can look it up.
我们必须这样做，我们可以查一下。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And people have heard me say this ad nauseam to the point where they actually roll their eyes, but these are the only two pieces of brain, I'm pointing to my eyes, folks, that are outside the cranial vault.
人们听到我说这句话令人作呕，以至于他们实际上翻白眼，但这是大脑中唯一的两块，我指着我的眼睛，伙计们，它们位于颅顶之外。
They are two pieces of brain that it basically inform the brain about whether or not to be alert or asleep.
它们是大脑的两个部分，主要通知大脑是否保持警觉或睡觉。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But you can imagine that those two little pieces of brain that we call eyes would have genetic variations.
但你可以想象，我们称之为眼睛的那两个小大脑部分会有遗传变异。
Of course eye color is genetically modular, is that determined, that there would be genetic variations based on whether or not your ancestry evolved near the equator or further from the equator?
当然，眼睛的颜色是由基因决定的，是否会根据您的祖先是在赤道附近还是远离赤道进化而产生遗传变异？
Right, I mean, you see more blue eyes in Scandinavia than you do near the equator.
是的，我的意思是，在斯堪的纳维亚半岛你看到的蓝眼睛比在赤道附近看到的还要多。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
I mean, it's the lack of light that said you need less inhibition because there's not enough light, right, so that's the idea of the change in color.
我的意思是，缺乏光线意味着你需要减少抑制，因为没有足够的光线，对吧，这就是颜色变化的想法。
So yeah, I totally agree with you.
所以是的，我完全同意你的观点。
I mean, I think this is an area that will be studied later and will be empirically determined.
我的意思是，我认为这是一个稍后将研究并根据经验确定的领域。
The problem we have in this field right now, which I think is the biggest problem, is we don't have a way to measure the ipRGC sensitivities in humans.
我们目前在这个领域遇到的问题，我认为是最大的问题，是我们没有办法测量人类的 ipRGC 敏感性。
So we still, like it's easy to measure your root function, if you go to an optometrist, they measure all the details, right?
所以我们仍然认为测量根功能很容易，如果您去看验光师，他们会测量所有细节，对吧？
Contrast detection.
对比检测。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You look at the chart, you look at the list.
你看图表，你看列表。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Spelling chart, you look at the letters at the DMV.
拼写表，你看DMV的字母。
Yeah.
是的。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
But for the nonsubconscious, we still don't have a good measuring systems to figure out, what is Andrew's sensitivity, what is Samer's sensitivity, what is this person's sensitivity?
但对于非潜意识，我们仍然没有一个好的测量系统来弄清楚，安德鲁的敏感度是什么，萨默的敏感度是什么，这个人的敏感度是什么？
And I think we are starting to work on something like that to hopefully develop these techniques.
我认为我们正在开始从事类似的工作，希望能够开发这些技术。
But till we develop them, it's going to be very hard to figure out if there is a sensitivity difference, how do they relate?
但在我们开发出它们之前，很难弄清楚是否存在敏感性差异，它们之间有何关系？
And on men and woman, dark and light and all that, normal versus psychologically ...
对于男人和女人，黑暗和光明等等，正常与心理......
on effect and stuff like that.
关于效果之类的东西。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Fascinating.
令人着迷。
And every time you talk, I learn so much.
每次你说话，我都能学到很多东西。
It's like in the best way, the best sense of the term, it's a waterfall of knowledge.
这就像最好的方式，最好的意义上的术语，它是知识的瀑布。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
As a final question, I have a question about sensitivity of a whole other kind.
作为最后一个问题，我有一个关于另一种敏感性的问题。
And that's the sensitivity to spicy food.
这就是对辛辣食物的敏感性。
Now, the reason I'm asking this question, what seemingly out of the blue is that I made the mistake once of having Samer cook for me.
现在，我之所以问这个问题，看似出乎意料的是，我曾经犯过让萨默为我做饭的错误。
And I said, "Not too spicy." And he said, "Okay, not too spicy." He actually said, "Okay, not too spicy." And it almost killed me.
我说：“不太辣。”他说：“好吧，不太辣。”他实际上说：“好吧，不太辣。”这几乎杀了我。
It was like two or three days.
好像有两三天的时间。
So you know a lot about biology outside the visual system, light, etcetera.
所以你对视觉系统、光等之外的生物学了解很多。
You've been around a while.
你已经呆了一段时间了。
Are there known genetic or inherited, of any kind, sensitivities to spicy food, to things like red peppers and capsicum?
是否存在已知的遗传性或遗传性对辛辣食物（如红辣椒和辣椒）的敏感性？
Because what you call mild, my friend, almost put me into the hospital.
因为你所说的轻微，我的朋友，差点让我进医院。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
I think this is similar to you swimming in the ocean, and I need to get developed the pain tolerance.
我觉得这就像你在海里游泳一样，我需要培养对疼痛的忍耐力。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
True, true.
真的，真的。
I like cold water swims and Samer's not a fan.
我喜欢冷水游泳，但 Samer 不喜欢。
But that's going to change, it's adaptable.
但这种情况将会改变，它具有适应性。
That's going to change.
这种情况将会改变。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Adaptable.
适应性强。
That's my belief.
这就是我的信念。
Before I met Rejji I was like you.
在遇到 Rejji 之前，我和你一样。
And once I started eating a lot of spicy food, I lost touch of how spicy my food is.
一旦我开始吃很多辛辣的食物，我就忘记了我的食物有多辣。
So I nearly killed you, Andrew, and I apologize for that.
所以我差点杀了你，安德鲁，我为此道歉。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I forgive you.
我原谅你了。
So basically what you're saying is that marriage toughened you up.
所以基本上你所说的是婚姻让你变得坚强。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Toughened me up, exactly.
确实，让我坚强起来。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Maybe that's, maybe that's the solution.
也许这就是，也许这就是解决方案。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
That's what you need.
这就是你所需要的。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Samer, this has been an amazing march through the importance of light, not just for regulating sleep and wakefulness, but also for food timing, the interactions with mood, the interactions with exercise.
萨默，这是一次令人惊叹的进步，说明了光的重要性，不仅可以调节睡眠和觉醒，还可以调节饮食时间、与情绪的相互作用、与运动的相互作用。
I'm certain that people are going to start thinking about how to change their relationship with light as a way to anchor everything that they do and that's important to their health.
我确信人们会开始思考如何改变他们与光的关系，以此来锚定他们所做的一切，这对他们的健康很重要。
And I just, on behalf of all of them, and just directly from me as your friend and as a colleague for many years now, I just want to say thank you for the incredible work you're doing and for sharing it with us.
我只是代表他们所有人，并直接作为你们的朋友和多年的同事，我只想对你们所做的令人难以置信的工作表示感谢，并感谢你们与我们分享。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Thank you so much.
非常感谢。
And actually now thinking about all of this and you said I should write a book, I should write a book and call it "The Tripartite Model." I think that would put all these components together, would be very interesting to do at some point.
实际上现在考虑所有这些，你说我应该写一本书，我应该写一本书并将其称为“三方模型”。我认为将所有这些组件放在一起，在某些时候会非常有趣。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You should write a book, you should write, they'll probably try and change the title to like, "Food, Mood, and You," or something because, but you can put in little print "the tripartite model" or whatever.
你应该写一本书，你应该写，他们可能会尝试将标题更改为“食物、心情和你”之类的东西，但你可以用小字写“三方模型”或其他什么。
But regardless of what it's called, you absolutely should write a book.
但不管它叫什么，你绝对应该写一本书。
And so if you'd like Samer to write a book, or if you'd like to learn more about him, let's talk a little bit about where people can find you.
因此，如果您希望萨默写一本书，或者您想更多地了解他，让我们谈谈人们可以在哪里找到您。
Your laboratory's at the National Institutes of Mental Health, he's head of the chronobiology unit, all these things as I've mentioned earlier.
你们的实验室在美国国家心理健康研究所，他是时间生物学部门的负责人，所有这些事情正如我之前提到的。
But you are active on Twitter and Instagram.
但你在 Twitter 和 Instagram 上很活跃。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So what is your Twitter handle?
那么你的 Twitter 账号是什么？
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
It's @SamerHattar.
我是@SamerHattar。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And we will provide a link for that in the show notes.
我们将在演出笔记中提供一个链接。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Sorry, at the, yes, at the Twitter @SamerHattar.
抱歉，是的，在 Twitter @SamerHattar。
And I think the same for Instagram.
我认为 Instagram 也是如此。
Yeah actually.
是的，实际上。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And Samer has been coaxed on to Instagram, so he does post from time to time.
Samer 也被哄骗上了 Instagram，所以他时不时会发一些帖子。
Mostly pictures of food that is incredibly spicy; but also information about chronobiology.
大多数是非常辣的食物图片；还有有关时间生物学的信息。
He comes on for an Instagram live every once in a while with me.
他偶尔会和我一起上 Instagram 直播。
And so definitely give him a follow there and on Twitter.
所以一定要在 Twitter 上关注他。
And I'm sure that he'll be happy to answer questions and entertain any and all discussions about chronobiology.
我相信他会很乐意回答问题并接受有关时间生物学的任何和所有讨论。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
Yeah, and light.
是的，还有光。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Great.
太棒了。
Thank you, Samer.
谢谢你，萨默。
Samer Hattar:
萨默·哈塔尔：
Awesome.
太棒了。
Thank you, Andrew.
谢谢你，安德鲁。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thank you for joining me for my conversation with Dr. Samer Hattar.
感谢您参加我与 Samer Hattar 博士的对话。
I hope you found it as interesting and informative as I did.
我希望您和我一样发现它有趣且内容丰富。
If you're enjoying this podcast and/or learning from it, please subscribe to our YouTube channel.
如果您喜欢这个播客和/或从中学习，请订阅我们的 YouTube 频道。
In addition, please leave us comments and feedback in the comment section on YouTube.
此外，请在 YouTube 的评论部分给我们留下评论和反馈。
A great thing to do there would be to make suggestions about future topics you'd like us to cover, or future guests you'd like me to host on the Huberman Lab podcast.
一件很棒的事情就是就您希望我们报道的未来主题或您希望我在 Huberman 实验室播客上主持的未来嘉宾提出建议。
In addition, please subscribe to our podcast on Apple and Spotify.
此外，请订阅我们在 Apple 和 Spotify 上的播客。
And on Apple, you can leave us up to a five-star review.
在苹果上，您可以给我们五星级的评价。
Please also check out the sponsors that we mentioned at the beginning of the podcast.
另请查看我们在播客开头提到的赞助商。
That's a terrific way to support us.
这是支持我们的好方法。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
For those of you that are interested in supporting scientific research, you can support the research in my laboratory on stress, on sleep, and human performance and other related topics by going to hubermanlab.stanford.edu/giving; and there you can make a tax deductible donation at any level that you like.
对于那些有兴趣支持科学研究的人，您可以通过访问 hubermanlab.stanford.edu/giving 支持我实验室关于压力、睡眠、人类表现和其他相关主题的研究；您可以在那里进行任何您喜欢的级别的免税捐款。
If you're not already following us on Instagram, please follow us @hubermanlab on Instagram and also on Twitter.
如果您尚未在 Instagram 上关注我们，请在 Instagram 和 Twitter 上关注我们@hubermanlab。
Both those places I teach neuroscience and offer information that's not always covered on the Huberman Lab podcast.
我在这两个地方教授神经科学，并提供胡伯曼实验室播客中并不总是涵盖的信息。
And last but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.
最后但并非最不重要的一点是，感谢您对科学的兴趣。
PART 4 OF 4 ENDS
第 4 部分（共 4 部分）结束