Dr. Robin Carhart-Harris: The Science of Psychedelics for Mental Health

I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.

我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。

Today, my guest is Dr. Robin Carhart-Harris.

今天，我的客人是罗宾·卡哈特-哈里斯博士。

Dr. Carhart-Harris is a distinguished professor of neurology and psychiatry at the University of California, San Francisco.

卡哈特-哈里斯博士是旧金山加州大学神经学和精神病学的杰出教授。

He is one of the leading researchers in the field of psychedelics and how they change neural circuitry in the brain.

他是致幻剂及其如何改变大脑神经回路领域的领先研究人员之一。

His laboratory is responsible for understanding, for instance, how psilocybin, also sometimes referred to as magic mushrooms change neural circuitry in the brain, such that new ideas and new forms of learning occur.

例如，他的实验室负责了解裸盖菇素（有时也称为迷幻蘑菇）如何改变大脑中的神经回路，从而产生新的想法和新的学习形式。

His laboratory is also responsible for carrying out various clinical trials, some of which have demonstrated that appropriate dosages of psilocybin can alleviate major depression in more than 67% of people that take the drug.

他的实验室还负责开展各种临床试验，其中一些试验表明，适当剂量的裸盖菇素可以缓解超过 67% 的服用该药物的人的重度抑郁症。

Now, this is not to say that everybody should take psilocybin, and today's discussion describes both the clinical trials and why treatments with psychedelics in some cases work and in some cases do not work in order to treat major depression.

现在，这并不是说每个人都应该服用裸盖菇素，今天的讨论描述了临床试验以及为什么迷幻药治疗在某些情况下有效而在某些情况下无效，以治疗重度抑郁症。

As well as discussions around psilocybin, lysogenic acid diethylamide, sometimes also referred to as LSD, as well as DMT.

以及有关裸盖菇素、溶原酸二乙酰胺（有时也称为 LSD）以及 DMT 的讨论。

And how these change the brain, and how those brain changes can relate to changes in mental health, as it relates to depression and other psychiatric challenges, as well as how psychedelics are being applied in order to change neural circuitry for sake of expanding different aspects of the human mind, including creativity, intelligence, and much more.

这些如何改变大脑，这些大脑变化如何与心理健康的变化相关，因为它与抑郁症和其他精神挑战有关，以及如何应用迷幻药来改变神经回路，以扩展人类思维的不同方面，包括创造力、智力等等。

During today's discussion Dr. Carhart-Harris teaches us about the history of the study of psychedelics, as well as how the legislature, that is the laws surrounding psychedelics, are evolving in the United States and elsewhere for the use of psychedelics to treat psychiatric challenges.

在今天的讨论中，卡哈特-哈里斯博士向我们介绍了迷幻药研究的历史，以及立法机关（即围绕迷幻药的法律）如何在美国和其他地方发展，以使用迷幻药来治疗精神疾病。

By the end of today's discussion, you will have a thorough understanding of how psychedelics work.

在今天的讨论结束时，您将对迷幻药的工作原理有一个透彻的了解。

Both in the short-term during the actual journey or trip.

无论是在实际旅途还是旅途中的短期。

In fact, much of my discussion today with Dr. Carhart-Harris talks about the different aspects of the psychedelic journey and how those relate to therapeutic outcomes.

事实上，我今天与卡哈特-哈里斯博士的讨论大部分讨论了迷幻之旅的不同方面以及这些方面与治疗结果的关系。

And, of course, by the end of today's discussion, you will also understand the long-term effects of psychedelics, that is, how they can actually rewire the brain.

当然，在今天的讨论结束时，您还将了解迷幻药的长期影响，即它们如何真正重新连接大脑。

Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.

在开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。

It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public.

然而，我的愿望和努力的一部分是向公众提供有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本消费者信息。

In keeping with that theme, I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast.

为了与这个主题保持一致，我要感谢今天播客的赞助商。

Our first sponsor is Eight Sleep.

我们的第一个赞助商是八睡。

Eight Sleep makes smart mattress covers with cooling, heating, and sleep tracking capacity.

August Sleep 生产具有冷却、加热和睡眠跟踪功能的智能床垫套。

I've talked many times before on this podcast about the fact that sleep is the foundation of mental health, physical health, and performance.

我之前在这个播客上多次谈到过睡眠是心理健康、身体健康和表现的基础这一事实。

One absolutely critical variable to getting excellent sleep is the temperature of your sleeping environment.

获得良好睡眠的一个绝对关键的变量是睡眠环境的温度。

That is, in order to fall and stay deeply asleep at night, your body temperature needs to actually drop by about 1 to 3 degrees.

也就是说，为了在晚上入睡并保持深度睡眠，您的体温实际上需要下降约 1 到 3 度。

And in order to wake up in the morning feeling refreshed and alert, your body temperature has to increase by about 1 to 3 degrees.

为了在早上醒来时感到神清气爽、警觉，您的体温必须升高约 1 至 3 度。

There are a lot of ways to control the temperature of your sleeping environment, but one of the best ways is to control the temperature of your actual mattress-- the surface that you're sleeping on.

有很多方法可以控制睡眠环境的温度，但最好的方法之一是控制实际床垫（您睡觉的表面）的温度。

With Eight Sleep, you can do this very easily.

通过八睡眠，您可以轻松地做到这一点。

There's a simple-to-use app where you can program in the temperature of your mattress across the night.

有一个简单易用的应用程序，您可以在整个晚上对床垫的温度进行编程。

So you can make it slightly cool at the beginning of the night, getting cooler, putting you into deep sleep, and then rapid eye movement sleep.

所以你可以在入夜时让它稍微凉一点，凉一点，让你进入深度睡眠，然后快速动眼睡眠。

And all of that, in terms of its impact on your sleep, can be tracked within the same app.

所有这些，就其对您睡眠的影响而言，都可以在同一个应用程序中进行跟踪。

I've been sleeping on an Eight Sleep mattress cover for more than two years now, and it has completely transformed my sleep.

我已经睡在八睡眠床垫罩上两年多了，它彻底改变了我的睡眠。

If you'd like to try Eight Sleep, you can go to eightsleep.com/huberman for their exclusive Memorial Day savings now through June 5 2023.

如果您想尝试“Eight Sleep”，您可以从即日起至 2023 年 6 月 5 日期间访问八睡眠.com/huberman 享受阵亡将士纪念日独家优惠。

Eight Sleep currently ships in the USA, Canada, United Kingdom, select countries in the EU, and Australia.

八睡眠目前在美国、加拿大、英国、欧盟部分国家和澳大利亚发货。

Again, that's eightsleep.com/huberman.

再说一遍，这是八睡眠.com/huberman。

Today's episode is also brought to us by Levels.

今天的节目也是Levels给我们带来的。

Levels is a program that lets you see how different foods affect your health by giving you real-time feedback on your diet using a continuous glucose monitor.

Levels 是一个程序，通过使用连续血糖监测仪为您的饮食提供实时反馈，让您了解不同的食物如何影响您的健康。

One of the most important factors in terms of your energy levels and your immediate and long term health are your blood glucose or blood sugar levels, as they're commonly called.

就您的能量水平以及您的近期和长期健康而言，最重要的因素之一是您的血糖或俗称的血糖水平。

With Levels, you can assess how different foods and activities impact your blood glucose levels.

通过水平，您可以评估不同的食物和活动如何影响您的血糖水平。

When I did this, it taught me several things.

当我这样做时，它教会了我几件事。

First of all, it taught me that certain foods really spike my blood glucose levels.

首先，它告诉我某些食物确实会提高我的血糖水平。

And while spikes in blood glucose aren't always a bad thing, I was able to assess how certain foods were spiking my blood glucose too much, such that I would have post-eating dips in energy levels.

虽然血糖升高并不总是一件坏事，但我能够评估某些食物如何使我的血糖升高过多，从而导致我饭后能量水平下降。

And by removing those foods and substituting in other foods, it really evened out my energy levels.

通过去掉这些食物并用其他食物代替，它确实平衡了我的能量水平。

So if you're interested in learning more about Levels and trying a continuous glucose monitor yourself, go to levels.link/huberman.

因此，如果您有兴趣了解有关 Levels 的更多信息并亲自尝试连续血糖监测仪，请访问levels.link/huberman。

Right now, Levels is offering an additional two free months of membership.

目前，Levels 额外提供两个月免费会员资格。

Again, that's levels.link/huberman.

同样，这是levels.link/huberman。

Today's episode is also brought to us by HVMN Ketone-IQ.

今天的节目也是由 HVMN Ketone-IQ 为我们带来的。

Ketone-IQ is a ketone supplement that increases blood ketones.

Ketone-IQ 是一种酮补充剂，可增加血酮。

Now, most people have heard of the so-called ketogenic diet.

现在，大多数人都听说过所谓的生酮饮食。

But most people, including myself, are not on the ketogenic diet.

但大多数人，包括我自己，都没有采用生酮饮食。

That is, I and most people eat complex carbohydrates, fruits, and things of that sort in addition to quality proteins, et cetera.

也就是说，除了优质蛋白质等之外，我和大多数人还吃复杂的碳水化合物、水果和类似的东西。

It turns out that even if you're not following a ketogenic diet, increasing your blood ketones can still have benefits.

事实证明，即使您不遵循生酮饮食，增加血酮仍然有好处。

So for instance, I use Ketone-IQ anytime I want to do extended bouts of focused work.

例如，每当我想要进行长时间的专注工作时，我都会使用 Ketone-IQ。

Preparing for podcast, research, writing grants, and if I ever want to exercise but I don't have time to eat or I don't want to have my gut full of food.

准备播客、研究、撰写资助，以及如果我想锻炼但没有时间吃饭或者不想让我的肠道充满食物。

Taking Ketone-IQ and thereby increasing my blood ketones allows me to do cognitive work or physical workouts without getting hungry and with plenty of energy and cognitive focus.

服用 Ketone-IQ 可以增加我的血酮，使我能够在不感到饥饿的情况下进行认知工作或体育锻炼，并且有充足的能量和认知注意力。

If you'd like to try Ketone-IQ, you can go to hvmn.com/huberman to save 20% off.

如果您想尝试 Ketone-IQ，可以访问 hvmn.com/huberman 享受 20% 的折扣。

Again, that's hvmn.com/huberman.

同样，这是 hvmn.com/huberman。

I'm pleased to announce that I will be hosting two live events in September of 2023.

我很高兴地宣布，我将于 2023 年 9 月主持两场现场活动。

The first live event will take place in Toronto on September 12.

首场现场活动将于 9 月 12 日在多伦多举行。

The second live event will take place in Chicago on September 28.

第二场现场活动将于 9 月 28 日在芝加哥举行。

Both live events will include a lecture and a question and answer period and are entitled, The Brain-Body Contract, during which I will discuss tools and science related to mental health, physical health, and performance.

这两场现场活动都将包括讲座和问答环节，题为“大脑与身体的契约”，在此期间我将讨论与心理健康、身体健康和表现相关的工具和科学。

And I should mention that a lot of that content will have absolutely no overlap with content covered previously on the Huberman Lab podcast or elsewhere.

我应该提到的是，其中很多内容与 Huberman 实验室播客或其他地方之前涵盖的内容绝对没有重叠。

If you're interested in attending either or both of these events, please go to hubermanlab.com/tour, and enter the code "Huberman" to get early access to tickets.

如果您有兴趣参加其中一项或两项活动，请访问 hubermanlab.com/tour，并输入代码“Huberman”以提前获取门票。

Once again, that's hubermanlab.com/tour and use the code "Huberman" to access tickets.

再次访问 hubermanlab.com/tour，并使用代码“Huberman”获取门票。

I hope to see you there.

我希望在那里见到你。

And now for my discussion with Dr. Robin Carhart-Harris.

现在我与罗宾·卡哈特-哈里斯博士进行了讨论。

Dr. Carhart-Harris, welcome.

卡哈特-哈里斯博士，欢迎光临。

I've been wanting to talk to you for a long time.

我想和你谈谈很久了。

I certainly have known who you are for quite a while, because I place you in this very small but very special and important category of researchers who has been pioneering the use of psychedelics for the treatment of specific clinical conditions, and really carrying the torch for, essentially, the entire field.

我当然已经知道你是谁很长一段时间了，因为我把你归入这个非常小但非常特殊和重要的研究人员类别，他们一直在开创性地使用致幻剂来治疗特定的临床病症，并且真正在整个领域传递火炬。

So I want to start with a voice of gratitude and say thank you for doing this incredibly important work.

因此，我想首先表达感激之情，感谢你们所做的这项极其重要的工作。

Could you tell us a little bit about what psychedelics are?

您能告诉我们一些关于什么是迷幻药吗？

In fact, I'm curious as to how the name psychedelic ever came to be.

事实上，我很好奇迷幻这个名字是怎么来的。

And certain drugs like mescaline-- let's see, 1956-- and LSD were on the bill.

账单上还包括某些药物，例如麦司卡林（让我们看看，1956 年）和迷幻药。

And he felt dissatisfied with them being under this category of psychotomimetics, and felt that the signature psychological effects of these compounds went beyond just mimicking psychotic symptoms.

他对它们属于拟精神病药类别感到不满，并认为这些化合物的标志性心理作用不仅仅是模仿精神病症状。

And so he wanted to find a more apt term to speak to, in a sense, the principal component of their action.

因此，从某种意义上说，他想找到一个更合适的术语来表达他们行动的主要组成部分。

And he jotted down a few different possibilities about a dozen or so, I think.

我认为他记下了大约十几种不同的可能性。

And one of them was psychodelic, actually it started as and ended up being psychedelic.

其中之一是迷幻的，实际上它开始是迷幻的，最终也是迷幻的。

And he had a correspondence going on with another Brit also living in the US, Aldous Huxley, where they were playing with some terms to refer to these compounds.

他与另一位同样居住在美国的英国人奥尔德斯·赫胥黎（Aldous Huxley）有通信，他们在通信中使用了一些术语来指代这些化合物。

And in the end, Osmond won with psychedelic, and he had this little ditty of, to fathom hell or soar angelic, just take a pinch of psychedelic.

最后，奥斯蒙德以迷幻剂获胜，他有这样的小曲：要了解地狱或翱翔天使，只需吸一点迷幻剂。

That's where you put the disclaimer in.

这就是您放置免责声明的地方。

And so what does that mean?

那么这意味着什么呢？

It's two ancient Greek words psyche, means the human mind or if we're being actually true to the ancient Greek it means soul.

这是两个古希腊词“psyche”，意思是人类的思想，或者如果我们真正忠实于古希腊语，它的意​​思是“灵魂”。

And then the other component means to make clear or to make visible or to make manifest or to reveal.

然后另一个组件的意思是“使清楚”或“使可见”或“使明显”或“揭示”。

So all of those work.

所以所有这些都有效。

And it's a neologism.

这是一个新词。

It's a made up word.

这是一个造出来的词。

But it does have that ancient Greek origin.

但它确实有古希腊的起源。

And it's speaking to this principle that these compounds reveal aspects of the psyche, of the human mind, the soul that are ordinarily not entirely visible.

正是根据这一原理，这些化合物揭示了心理、人类思想、灵魂的通常不完全可见的方面。

And so that's the etymology, and it's wonderfully poetic.

这就是词源，而且非常富有诗意。

But I happen to think it's also very accurate.

但我碰巧认为这也非常准确。

It's a useful term, because it's sort of, you might say valence nonspecific.

这是一个有用的术语，因为你可能会说它是非特异性的价。

It doesn't say, you're going to have a great time or that you're going to go mad.

它并不是说，你会玩得很开心，也不会说你会发疯。

It's more that-- it reveals a psyche, and it could be hellish but it could be heavenly.

更重要的是——它揭示了一种心灵，它可能是地狱，但也可能是天堂。

So that's the etymology and also a bit of the psychology.

这就是词源学，也是心理学的一部分。

And sort of pointing to the phenomenology, the subjective experience.

有点指向现象学、主观体验。

But there's also a pharmacology here.

但这里还有药理学。

And quite recently, there was put out a consensus statement about psychedelics that's really referring to what we call the classic psychedelics to say that these are all compounds that work on a particular receptor in the brain, the serotonin 2A receptor.

最近，发表了一份关于迷幻药的共识声明，该声明实际上指的是我们所说的经典迷幻药，即所有这些化合物都对大脑中的特定受体（血清素 2A 受体）起作用。

And that's another way that we could define these compounds.

这是我们定义这些化合物的另一种方式。

I said this one's a little hot, because I'm of the view that while the pharmacology is really useful, how the drugs work chemically, you can't avoid the phenomenology.

我说这个有点热，因为我认为虽然药理学确实有用，但药物如何发挥化学作用，你无法避免现象学。

And if we're true to the etymology, where the term came from, then we must recognize, and we cannot neglect the subjective experience.

如果我们忠实于词源，即该术语的来源，那么我们必须认识到，并且我们不能忽视主观体验。

Are you talking about the subconscious?

你在谈论潜意识吗？

I mean, psychologists and most famously, Freud but also Jung and also neuroscientists, I think, think about subconscious processing.

我的意思是，心理学家，最著名的是弗洛伊德，还有荣格和神经科学家，我认为，都在思考潜意识的处理。

I think, perhaps, the most salient example for me that's outside the realm of anything psychedelic would be blindsight.

我认为，对我来说，迷幻领域之外最突出的例子也许就是盲视。

This phenomenon that you take people that are blind but still have some connectivity in their brain and you present them a board with-- or a computer screen with different number of dots on each side and you say how many dots are on each side of the screen, and they say, what do you mean?

这种现象是，你让一些盲人，但他们的大脑仍然有一定的连接性，然后你向他们展示一块板，或者一个电脑屏幕，每一侧都有不同数量的点，你说屏幕每一侧有多少个点，他们说，你是什么意思？

I can't see the screen.

我看不到屏幕。

I'm blind.

我是瞎子。

And you say, well, just guess.

你说，好吧，猜猜吧。

And their guess rate is accurate far more than chance would predict.

他们的猜测率比偶然预测的准确得多。

So it's sort-- it's kind of related, but it's different.

所以它有点相关，但又有所不同。

So in depth, psychology, psychoanalysis, psychodynamic, psychology, Sigmund Freud, Carl Jung, and so on.

那么深入的话，心理学、精神分析、心理动力学、心理学、西格蒙德·弗洛伊德、卡尔·荣格等等。

We talk about the unconscious.

我们谈论无意识。

And there, it's more about the kind of blood and guts of the human condition, the human nature-- both the personal unconscious.

在那里，更多的是关于人类状况的血液和内脏，人性——两者都是个人无意识。

So things that you might not want to necessarily be conscious of, because it's painful.

所以你可能不想意识到这些事情，因为它很痛苦。

So that's the repression aspect pushing it out of conscious awareness.

这就是压抑的一面，将其从意识中驱逐出去。

There's aspects about humans, not just this individual human.

人类有很多方面，而不仅仅是人类个体。

There's aspects to our minds, our psyches that are not fully available to conscious awareness, but can come up in certain states.

我们的思想和心灵的某些方面并不完全可以被意识所察觉，但可以在某些状态下出现。

Psychoanalysis went crazy for dreaming as their royal road to a knowledge of the unconscious.

精神分析因将梦视为了解无意识的必由之路而疯狂。

That was Freud.

那是弗洛伊德。

But we now with psychedelics, and this was what drew me into the area.

但我们现在有了迷幻药，这就是吸引我进入这个领域的原因。

Was discovering literature that was speaking to this particular action, the psychedelic action.

正在寻找讲述这种特殊行为（迷幻行为）的文学作品。

And was saying that when these drugs-- like LSD, psilocybin found in magic mushrooms, when they're used in psychotherapy, material comes up that may be may have been repressed that is of therapeutic value and awareness and insight of this material seems to catalyze the therapeutic process with strong emotional release.

他说，当这些药物——比如LSD、迷幻蘑菇中发现的裸盖菇素——用于心理治疗时，可能被压抑的物质就会出现，具有治疗价值，而对这种物质的认识和洞察力似乎会通过强烈的情绪释放来催化治疗过程。

These cathartic experiences and insights.

这些宣泄的经历和见解。

Whether they're insights that are personal or whether they're transpersonal.

无论它们是个人见解还是超个人见解。

But for me, this is really where the meat of it is with psychedelics and classic psychedelics, in particular.

但对我来说，这确实是迷幻药和经典迷幻药的实质所在。

The likes of compounds like LSD and psilocybin.

LSD 和裸盖菇素等化合物。

I would say that if it wasn't for this action by classic psychedelics, we wouldn't be so interested in psychedelics.

我想说，如果不是经典迷幻药的这一举动，我们不会对迷幻药如此感兴趣。

I think, if we only had compounds like ketamine, MDMA cannabis, that could be said, broadly speaking, to be psychedelic-like.

我认为，如果我们只有像氯胺酮、MDMA 大麻这样的化合物，从广义上讲，可以说是类似迷幻剂的。

I don't think it necessarily would have captured the world's attention as psychedelics are right now.

我认为它不一定会像现在的迷幻药那样引起全世界的关注。

I actually think it's a major gap to fill.

我实际上认为这是一个需要填补的重大空白。

Is this principal action of the classic psychedelics.

这是经典迷幻药的主要作用。

What does this mean that I'm referring to?

我指的这是什么意思？

Psyche-revealing.

揭示心灵。

What is that?

那是什么？

And I suppose where I'm going with this is, what is that in terms of the biology as well?

我想我要说的是，从生物学角度来说这是什么？

What's going on in the brain and the body when people become aware of things that previously they weren't fully aware of.

当人们意识到以前没有完全意识到的事情时，大脑和身体会发生什么。

I've read the papers that you've published and that others have published in this area.

我读过您发表的论文以及其他人在该领域发表的论文。

And typically, the dosages used in these trials are 25 milligrams of psilocybin.

通常，这些试验中使用的剂量是 25 毫克裸盖菇素。

And we talk about one recent trial, in particular, that compared 25 to 10 milligrams to more frequent use of very small amounts.

我们特别谈论最近的一项试验，该试验将 25 至 10 毫克的剂量与更频繁地使用极少量的剂量进行了比较。

1 milligram over 3 weeks, for instance.

例如，3周内服用1毫克。

However, when people talk about magic mushrooms, they often talk about gram doses of the mushroom, because I'm assuming that they contain milligram dosages of psilocybin.

然而，当人们谈论迷幻蘑菇时，他们经常谈论蘑菇的克剂量，因为我假设它们含有毫克剂量的裸盖菇素。

Here, we're not encouraging use of any kind.

在这里，我们不鼓励任何形式的使用。

These are clinical trials.

这些是临床试验。

But for clarity of understanding, what is the conversion, typically?

但为了清楚地理解，转换通常是什么？

Like 1 gram of magic mushrooms will contain how many milligrams of psilocybin on average.

比如1克迷幻蘑菇平均含有多少毫克裸盖菇素。

Because what I'm trying to do here is calibrate people to this idea of microdosing versus macrodosing.

因为我在这里想做的是让人们适应微剂量与大剂量的概念。

And that's fairly straightforward to do with respect to the clinical trials.

对于临床试验而言，这相当简单。

But then in a lot of the lay discussion around this, you hear about heroic doses versus microdoses.

但在围绕这个问题的许多外行讨论中，你会听到英雄剂量与微剂量的对比。

And so I think there's a lot of confusion.

所以我认为有很多混乱。

So if you would, educate us on this idea of what's a microdose.

因此，如果您愿意，请告诉我们什么是微剂量。

And perhaps, also how many milligrams of psilocybin are contained in a gram of quote unquote, "magic mushrooms?"

也许，一克“神奇蘑菇”中含有多少毫克裸盖菇素？

There's different protocols.

有不同的协议。

And yeah.

是的。

So some like Jim Fadiman-- one of the popularizers of microdosing, I think would say that a true microdose should be sub-perceptible.

因此，像吉姆·法迪曼（Jim Fadiman）这样的人——微剂量的普及者之一，我认为会说真正的微剂量应该是亚可察觉的。

You shouldn't feel it, yet the assumption is it's going to change you in some way on a kind of trait level more than a state level, and maybe behaviorally.

你不应该感觉到它，但假设它会以某种方式改变你，在某种特质层面上，而不是在州层面上，也许是在行为层面上。

And the typical story goes, it will improve well-being.

典型的故事是，它将改善幸福感。

And maybe, maybe, it could improve certain aspects of cognition, say, related to creative thinking.

也许，也许，它可以改善认知的某些方面，比如与创造性思维相关的方面。

I emphasize the maybe there because that's another angle with microdosing.

我强调“也许”，因为这是微剂量的另一个角度。

We're waiting for some compelling evidence.

我们正在等待一些令人信服的证据。

As things stand right now, I'd say, we lack that compelling evidence.

我想说，就目前情况而言，我们缺乏令人信服的证据。

There's some suggestive stuff, but often the study designs aren't that strong.

有一些有启发性的东西，但通常研究设计并不那么有力。

It's really hard to do a study with microdosing, because you need to have permission to give people a microdose that for practical reasons, they would go home with, otherwise, you're requiring them to be in the lab, say three times a week for x number of weeks to meet the criteria of a course of microdosing, which might be two or three times a week for say, a month.

进行微剂量研究确实很难，因为你需要获得许可才能给予人们微剂量，出于实际原因，他们会带回家，否则，你需要他们在实验室，比如每周三次，持续 x 周，以满足微剂量疗程的标准，这可能是每周两次或三次，比如一个月。

And that's a hard thing to do in a lab study.

在实验室研究中这是一件很难做到的事情。

It's expensive.

它很贵。

You'd need to do that against a suitable control, so a placebo control.

您需要针对合适的对照（即安慰剂对照）来做到这一点。

And there is a study that's been done in New Zealand that has some interesting preliminary data that did-- I think did the design right.

新西兰进行了一项研究，其中有一些有趣的初步数据，我认为设计是正确的。

But it hasn't been published yet.

但尚未发布。

I've seen some positive findings presented around improvements in mood.

我看到了一些关于情绪改善的积极发现。

But it's a bit early to get too excited about that.

但现在对此过于兴奋还为时过早。

It needs to go through peer review and all that.

它需要经过同行评审等等。

But as things stand, the evidence is pretty thin.

但就目前情况而言，证据还很薄弱。

And we have to be honest about that.

我们必须诚实地对待这一点。

We did quite a creative study with my colleagues at Imperial.

我们与帝国理工学院的同事进行了一项颇具创造性的研究。

The guy leading that, Balazs Szigeti, a Hungarian chap, did a really creative design.

领导者、匈牙利小伙巴拉兹·西盖蒂 (Balazs Szigeti) 做了一个非常有创意的设计。

Very much his brainchild.

非常是他的创意。

He instructed people to do their own blinding, their own placebo-controlled blinding of their own microdosing.

他指导人们自己进行盲法，用安慰剂控制自己的微剂量盲法。

So this was a classic citizen science study like do it yourself science where they would get their LSD tabs and chop them up, put them into gel capsules, opaque, and have other capsules that are the placebos that they just close empty capsule.

所以这是一项经典的公民科学研究，就像“自己做科学”一样，他们会拿到 LSD 标签并将其切碎，放入不透明的凝胶胶囊中，并有其他胶囊作为安慰剂，他们只是关闭空胶囊。

And then there was a whole barcode scan technique so that you kind of shuffle them up.

然后有一个完整的条形码扫描技术，这样你就可以将它们打乱。

But they've got the barcode in, the QR code.

但他们有条形码，QR 码。

So you can break the code later on, but once you've shuffled them up, you no longer know which ones had the microdosing and which ones are empty.

因此，您可以稍后破解代码，但是一旦您将它们打乱，您就不再知道哪些有微剂量，哪些是空的。

So you measured that pre-trial and then used it to correct for the response.

因此，您测量了预试验，然后用它来纠正响应。

And how did it work?

它是如何运作的？

Those who got a placebo but thought they got a microdose did as well as those who thought they got a microdose and did get a microdose.

那些服用安慰剂但认为自己服用了微剂量的人与那些认为自己服用了微剂量但确实服用了微剂量的人一样。

So it was the bigger effect-- the majority of the effect was in thinking that you got a microdose.

所以这是更大的影响——大部分影响是认为你服用了微剂量。

So in a sense, it was a victory for the power of the placebo response.

所以从某种意义上说，这是安慰剂反应力量的胜利。

And it's created all sorts of controversy.

它引起了各种各样的争议。

People don't want to believe it, that kind of thing.

人们不愿意相信这样的事情。

But that's the beauty of science, isn't it?

但这就是科学的魅力，不是吗？

That science is not about what you want to believe.

科学并不是你想相信的东西。

That right there is the beauty of science.

这就是科学之美。

And is that what one would find in-- I'm guessing here, if I'm accurate, this does not mean that I have experience here.

这就是人们会发现的——我在这里猜测，如果我准确的话，这并不意味着我在这里有经验。

But 2 grams of mushrooms?

但是2克蘑菇呢？

So it's guesswork.

所以这是猜测。

And I would love to see someone do a proper study on it.

我很高兴看到有人对此进行适当的研究。

And look at the psilocybin content in a given mass of psilocybin mushrooms, magic mushrooms.

并查看给定质量的裸盖菇素蘑菇（迷幻蘑菇）中的裸盖菇素含量。

But to my knowledge, that hasn't really been done.

但据我所知，这还没有真正做到。

Someone like Paul Stamets would give a better answer here.

像保罗·斯塔梅茨这样的人会在这里给出更好的答案。

But I think the percentage within the mushroom mass is-- of psilocybin in the mushroom mass and psilocin which is the metabolite of psilocybin is something in the 1%, a little bit higher, maybe, range.

但我认为蘑菇块中裸盖菇素的百分比和裸盖菇素的代谢物裸盖菇素的百分比在 1% 范围内，也许更高一点。

From two-- I suppose there two sessions of using psilocybin in these ranges of 10 to 25 milligrams.

从两次开始——我想有两次使用裸盖菇素的剂量在 10 到 25 毫克之间。

Do I have that correct?

我说的对吗？

Because the impulse is to think it is.

因为冲动就是认为它是。

That what one thinks and sees and hallucinates is-- and hears is so vital.

一个人所想、所见、所幻、所闻是如此重要。

But of course, these drugs can create neuroplasticity changes in our neural wiring, presumably for long periods of time.

当然，这些药物可以在我们的神经线路中产生神经可塑性变化，而且这种变化可能会持续很长一段时间。

So what are your thoughts on the experience itself?

那么您对体验本身有何看法？

And maybe for those who have not done these compounds before, you could explain a little bit about what's typical for people, and what you think is leading to that incredible positive and pervasive change in mood, state, and trait.

也许对于那些以前没有做过这些化合物的人来说，你可以解释一下人们的典型情况，以及你认为什么会导致情绪、状态和特质发生令人难以置信的积极和普遍的变化。

And so that's guiding us.

这就是我们的指导。

Now, could you say, well, maybe those experiences are some kind of epiphenomenon of say, a central brain action?

现在，你能说，好吧，也许这些经历是某种附带现象，比如大脑的中枢活动？

Well, absolutely.

嗯，绝对是。

But then all experience are epiphenomenon by that principle.

但根据这个原则，所有的经验都是附带现象。

And yet we care about it, you know?

但我们关心它，你知道吗？

And it matters to us and in our human relations with each other.

这对我们以及我们之间的人际关系都很重要。

So I think it does matter to a human being when they're in say, a psilocybin therapy session, and as the drug effects begin to come on and the body starts to feel a little strange and tingly and there's some initial anxiety.

所以我认为这对一个人来说确实很重要，当他们接受裸盖菇素治疗时，随着药物作用开始显现，身体开始感觉有点奇怪和刺痛，并且最初会出现一些焦虑。

And then in their mind's eye, they start to notice patterns and maybe colors and then, maybe, those patterns deepen and they're dynamic and they have this fascinating organic quality.

然后在他们的脑海中，他们开始注意到图案，也许还有颜色，然后，也许，这些图案加深，它们是动态的，它们具有这种迷人的有机品质。

There's actually very little variability between the different sites that have done this work on these conditions.

事实上，在这些条件下完成这项工作的不同站点之间几乎没有什么差异。

Typically, it's two people.

通常是两个人。

Ideally, mental health professionals, at least one who's a psychiatrist or a clinical psychologist or some other kind of psychotherapist or psychiatric nurse.

理想情况下，心理健康专业人员，至少是一名精神病学家或临床心理学家或其他类型的心理治疗师或精神科护士。

But ideally, two who meet those criteria with a individual who's ingested the drug and music playing throughout.

但理想情况下，两个符合这些标准的人与一个服用药物的人一起播放音乐。

A kind of runway into taking the drug and then throughout, so there's continuity.

一种服用药物然后贯穿整个过程的跑道，所以有连续性。

And then as it gets into more stronger drug effects, the music starts to coax emotion, and very intentionally, strings, for example, would come in and it would be an interesting experiment and one that we'd love to do actually to see whether if you were to pull that out, whether the psychedelic experience would be as emotionally intense as it is in psychedelic therapy when you have music there as a default.

然后当它进入更强烈的药物作用时，音乐开始哄骗情绪，并且非常有意地加入弦乐，这将是一个有趣的实验，我们很乐意实际做一个实验，看看如果你把它拉出来，迷幻体验是否会像在迷幻治疗中当你默认音乐时那样强烈。

And across the board, people should find this remarkable, because it kind of is.

总的来说，人们应该发现这很了不起，因为它确实如此。

All of the published studies that are now having such an impact on psychiatry and beyond have music there as a staple component.

所有已发表的对精神病学及其他领域产生如此影响的研究都将音乐作为主要组成部分。

And we just take it as assumption that it needs to be.

我们只是将其视为需要如此的假设。

I tend to share that assumption.

我倾向于同意这个假设。

But it's remarkable that it hasn't been tested properly.

但值得注意的是它还没有经过适当的测试。

But it's there.

但它就在那里。

And if you were to run with that, and if you had a critical agenda, you would say, well, this is music therapy.

如果你要这样做，如果你有一个重要的议程，你会说，好吧，这就是音乐疗法。

Why are you making all this fuss about psychedelics when it's music that's there in all of these trials with all these fantastic findings.

当所有这些试验中都存在音乐以及所有这些奇妙的发现时，为什么你要对迷幻药大惊小怪呢？

So there is something to that.

所以这是有道理的。

And this will tee me up probably to talk about psychedelic-therapy being a combination treatment.

这可能会让我开始谈论迷幻疗法是一种联合疗法。

We have a hyphen between the two, because I share the hypothesis.

两者之间有一个连字符，因为我同意这个假设。

The assumption that should be tested better.

应该更好地测试这个假设。

There is a positive interaction between the two.

两者之间存在良性互动。

That there's a synergy between the two.

两者之间存在协同作用。

The reason I started taking Athletic Greens and the reason I still take Athletic Greens once or usually twice a day is that it gets me the probiotics that I need for gut health.

我开始服用运动绿色食品的原因以及我仍然每天服用一次或通常两次运动绿色食品的原因是它为我提供了肠道健康所需的益生菌。

Our gut is very important.

我们的直觉非常重要。

It's populated by gut microbiota that communicate with the brain, the immune system, and basically all the biological systems of our body to strongly impact our immediate and long-term health.

它充满了肠道微生物群，它们与大脑、免疫系统以及我们身体的所有生物系统进行交流，对我们的近期和长期健康产生强烈影响。

And those probiotics in Athletic Greens are optimal and vital for microbiotic health.

Athletic Greens 中的益生菌对于微生物健康来说是最佳且至关重要的。

In addition, Athletic Greens contains a number of adaptogens, vitamins, and minerals that make sure that all of my foundational nutritional needs are met.

此外，运动绿叶蔬菜还含有多种适应原、维生素和矿物质，可确保满足我所有的基本营养需求。

And it tastes great.

而且味道好极了。

If you'd like to try Athletic Greens, you can go to athleticgreens.com/huberman, and they'll give you five free travel packs that make it really easy to mix up Athletic Greens while you're on the road, in the car, on the plane, et cetera.

如果您想尝试 Athletic Greens，您可以访问 Athletic Greens.com/huberman，他们会为您提供五个免费旅行包，让您在路上、车内、飞机上等场合轻松搭配 Athletic Greens。

And they'll give you a year's supply of vitamin D3 K2.

他们还会为您提供一年的维生素 D3 K2。

Again, that's athleticgreens.com/huberman to get the five free travel packs and the year supply of vitamin D3 K2.

再次强调，您可以访问 sportsgreens.com/huberman 获取 5 个免费旅行包和全年维生素 D3 K2 供应量。

This is extremely useful to hear because I think most people think, OK.

这听起来非常有用，因为我认为大多数人都会认为，好吧。

Psychedelic.

迷幻的。

Whether or not they have experience with psychedelics or not, get some visual hallucinations, some auditory hallucinations, some synesthesia, some visual auditory blending, somatosensation, you know?

不管有没有用迷幻药的经验，都会有一些幻视，一些幻听，一些联觉，一些视听混合，体感，你知道吗？

Rubbing a surface and being able to elicit the sounds in one's mind.

摩擦表面并能够引起脑海中的声音。

Of course, et cetera.

当然，等等。

But so seldom do we actually hear about the specifics of these clinical trials in a way that, for instance, points to music as one of the, perhaps, key variables.

但我们很少真正听到这些临床试验的具体细节，例如，音乐可能是关键变量之一。

Now, you mentioned that as people enter these psychedelic states, that there's a little bit of initial anxiety.

现在，您提到当人们进入这些迷幻状态时，最初会有一点焦虑。

About a year and a half ago, I had a discussion with Dr. Matthew Johnson who's running some psilocybin trials at Johns Hopkins, as you know.

大约一年半前，我与马修·约翰逊博士进行了讨论，正如你所知，他正在约翰·霍普金斯大学进行一些裸盖菇素试验。

And he mentioned the critical importance, at least in his mind, to this idea of the patient, quote unquote, "letting go" or allowing the experience to take them someplace mentally as opposed to trying to constrain their sensory and cognitive experience.

他提到，至少在他看来，对患者的这种想法至关重要，“放手”或允许这种体验将他们带到精神上的某个地方，而不是试图限制他们的感官和认知体验。

I'm curious what your reflections are on that idea.

我很好奇你对这个想法有何看法。

And why it might be so valuable clinically.

以及为什么它在临床上如此有价值。

And this ties back to this earlier discussion we were having about the unconscious or about psychedelics revealing something that's there all the time but that we don't have access to.

这与我们之前关于无意识或致幻剂的讨论有关，这些讨论揭示了一直存在但我们无法接触到的东西。

And again, I'm struggling to find the right language for this, because we don't really have a neural mechanism like top-down inhibition or something like that to explain how this unconscious might be uncorked in the psychedelic experience.

再说一遍，我正在努力寻找合适的语言，因为我们实际上没有像自上而下的抑制或类似的神经机制来解释这种无意识如何在迷幻体验中被打开。

But to make it quite simple and direct, how important do you think it really is for the patient to feel like they are, quote unquote, "letting go" and what in the world is "letting go" in biological terms?

但简单来说，您认为让患者感受到自己的真实感受有多重要，“放手”，以及生物学术语中的“放手”到底是什么？

And letting go very much is, again, a staple component of how the different teams do this work in terms of encouraging a willingness to let go.

再次强调，充分放手是不同团队在鼓励放手意愿方面开展这项工作的主要组成部分。

And when we started out doing our depression work and did that first trial, it was the first trial of psychedelic in a formally diagnosed depression, you know?

当我们开始做抑郁症工作并进行第一次试验时，这是对正式诊断的抑郁症进行迷幻药的第一次试验，你知道吗？

Where that was the target population.

那是目标人群。

A depressed population.

抑郁的人口。

It was the first modern study to do that.

这是第一个这样做的现代研究。

And we visited Hopkins, friends there and were mentored on how to do the guiding Bill Richards, Mary Cusumano.

我们拜访了霍普金斯大学和那里的朋友，并接受了如何指导比尔·理查兹和玛丽·库苏马诺的指导。

They were just so brilliant and wise in their guidance to us as how to do the guiding in our trial.

他们对我们的指导非常聪明和明智，就像如何在我们的试验中进行指导一样。

And so this phrase of trust, let go, be open, you'll hear a lot.

所以这句话的信任，放手，开放，你会听到很多。

I don't know who fairly it should be attributed to, but I would attribute it to Bill Richards.

我不知道应该归功于谁，但我认为应该归功于比尔·理查兹。

Yeah.

是的。

Everything's borrowed.

一切都是借来的。

You probably got it from someone else.

你可能是从别人那里得到的。

But it's such a key principle.

但这是一个非常关键的原则。

And it's almost like a mantra that you're trying to instill in people.

这几乎就像是你试图向人们灌输的口头禅。

Trust, let go, be open.

信任、放手、开放。

And those different components where the trust is about the therapeutic rapport that, again, this goes beyond just intuition now.

而那些不同的组成部分，信任是关于治疗融洽关系的，这再次超出了现在的直觉。

We formerly measured therapeutic rapport.

我们之前测量了治疗关系。

We do it even with just a single item, a visual analog scale item, a subjective rating scale item on the morning of dosing, and we find that it's a significant predictor of the quality of the experience that you have under the drug in the psychedelic therapy, and then the therapeutic outcomes x weeks or months later.

我们甚至只用一个项目，一个视觉模拟量表项目，一个在服药当天早上的主观评分量表项目，我们发现它是您在迷幻治疗中使用药物的体验质量的重要预测因素，以及数周或数月后的治疗结果。

So very powerful chain of predictive components there, but trust, essentially, important.

那里有非常强大的预测组件链，但信任本质上很重要。

And again, not just to intuition but the data pointing to that.

再说一次，不仅仅是直觉，还有指向这一点的数据。

Let go, there's a readiness to surrender, to let go, to not resist.

放手，准备好投降、放手、不反抗。

And we do measure that too and see that it's predictive of response.

我们也确实对此进行了测量，并发现它可以预测反应。

And then the being open is about a willingness to go there, to confront, to be inquisitive.

然后，开放就是愿意去那里、去面对、去好奇。

Something that's easier said than done.

有些事说起来容易做起来难。

Can be terrifying.

可能很可怕。

When you're dealing with a very vulnerable population, it's probably more-- the rule then, the exception that they're carrying some significant adversity, life adversity or frank trauma that they've suffered.

当你面对的是非常脆弱的人群时，这可能是更多的规则，但他们正承受着一些重大的逆境、生活逆境或他们所遭受的坦率的创伤。

And so that message of be open, be willing to confront and to go there is really powerful.

因此，开放、愿意面对并去那里的信息确实很强大。

And that's how it plays out.

事情就是这样发生的。

And often, there is struggle.

通常，会有斗争。

There's something going on that is I don't want to be feeling this.

发生了一些事情，我不想有这种感觉。

Make it stop.

让它停止。

That can be nightmarish at times, but it's very, very strong.

有时这可能是噩梦，但它非常非常强烈。

And with these big doses that we give, it's very strong.

我们给予的这些大剂量的药物非常强大。

And actually, a student that I've worked with, I think now doing a PhD, at Harry Brouwer is working on a fantastic project characterizing the different phases of the psychedelic experience where the early phase is dominated by negative emotions and negatively-valenced feelings of anxiety and struggle.

事实上，我曾经和我一起工作过的一个学生，我想现在正在 Harry Brouwer 攻读博士学位，正在研究一个很棒的项目，该项目描述了迷幻体验的不同阶段，其中早期阶段主要是负面情绪以及焦虑和挣扎的负面情绪。

And then it's a different story in the latter half.

然后到了后半段，又是另外一个故事了。

But when you say that typically there's an anxiety, maybe some negative valence in the early stage, do you mean about the sensations people are experiencing or about some prior event that's being called to mind that they're remembering?

但是，当你说通常存在焦虑，也许在早期阶段有一些负面的效价时，你的意思是人们正在经历的感觉，还是他们正在记住的一些先前的事件？

Likewise, for the positive phase of the psychedelic journey or trip are people-- do they still call it a trip?

同样，对于迷幻旅程或旅行的积极阶段，人们仍然称其为旅行吗？

So in other words, is there a threading through of some concept that comes to mind for people?

换句话说，人们脑海中是否有某种概念的贯穿？

Maybe about an earlier trauma or maybe about a sense of self or a sense of other forgiveness.

也许是关于早期的创伤，或者是关于自我意识或他人宽恕的感觉。

It could be any of these things.

可能是这些事情中的任何一个。

But what do we know about the finer details of all that?

但我们对这一切的更详细的细节了解多少呢？

And we have that assuredness to an extent about ourselves as well.

我们对自己也有一定程度的信心。

It might be illusory, but we have it.

它可能是虚幻的，但我们拥有它。

And what the drug's doing is it's breaking down all of that.

而药物的作用就是打破这一切。

And it's scary as hell.

这太可怕了。

And if it's a big dose, it's just like human nature to rage against that a bit and a bit like dying.

如果剂量很大，人类就会对它感到愤怒，就像死亡一样。

I don't want this.

我不想要这个。

It feels like I could be dying.

感觉我可能要死了。

And it's very palpable and that comes up.

这是非常明显的并且出现了。

So yeah.

所以是的。

I mean, those are the core fears.

我的意思是，这些是核心恐惧。

That those two and very reliably, that comes up.

这两个非常可靠地出现了。

And it's really like a basic drug action.

这真的就像一个基本的药物作用。

It's dose-dependent but it's a basic drug action that is forcing something about the nature of the mind and the way it's made up that makes it feel that way, but it feels like I'm losing my mind or it feels like I could lose my mind or that I could go insane or that maybe I'm dying here and this is bad.

它是剂量依赖性的，但它是一种基本的药物作用，它迫使心灵的本质及其构成方式产生这种感觉，但感觉就像我正在失去理智，或者感觉我可能会失去理智，或者我可能会发疯，或者我可能会死在这里，这很糟糕。

Yeah.

是的。

What is the evidence that after the psychedelic journey is over, that some or perhaps all of that enhanced communication across brain areas is maintained?

有什么证据表明迷幻之旅结束后，大脑区域之间的部分或全部增强的沟通得以维持？

And if so, what role do you feel that could play in these incredible positive therapeutic outcomes?

如果是这样，您认为这在这些令人难以置信的积极治疗结果中可以发挥什么作用？

And then the cool finding with psilocybin was the first paper, is that the communication, yes.

第一篇论文中关于裸盖菇素的一个很酷的发现是，沟通，是的。

It transcends these modules and becomes much more inter-modular crossing different modalities and that effect correlated with the magnitude of the subjective effects and then we replicated it with LSD using different methods.

它超越了这些模块，变得更加跨不同模态的模块间，并且该效果与主观效果的大小相关，然后我们使用不同的方法用 LSD 复制它。

And a new paper will come out soon with DMT showing a similar effect.

一篇新论文即将发表，DMT 也显示出类似的效果。

It's a bit of a debate about what regions are most implicated.

关于哪些地区受影响最严重存在一些争论。

But the general effect of an increase in global functional connectivity is what we call it or global communication in the brain.

但全局功能连接增加的总体影响就是我们所说的大脑中的全局通信。

But the scientist in me has to ask, is it possible that all of that increased connectivity is occurring, and yet that is a distinct phenomenon layered on top of some other effect of the psychedelic drugs impacting access to the unconscious, hallucinations?

但我内心的科学家不得不问，是否有可能所有这些增加的连通性正在发生，但这是一种独特的现象，叠加在致幻药物影响无意识、幻觉的其他影响之上？

In other words, is it the increased connectivity that's leading to the subjective experience, or are those two things happening in parallel?

换句话说，是连通性的增强带来了主观体验，还是这两件事同时发生？

And that's typically what we do in cognitive neuroscience.

这就是我们在认知神经科学领域通常所做的事情。

It's like the first port of call materialist approach.

这就像唯物主义方法的第一个停靠港。

But one can be a materialist, essentially, but still appreciate that circular causality that mind also interacts with brain.

但本质上，一个人可以是一个唯物主义者，但仍然欣赏心灵与大脑相互作用的循环因果关系。

And it's so hard to pick the two apart.

很难将两者区分开来。

And there is a kind of essential dualism where subjective experience is a thing in and of itself.

并且存在一种本质的二元论，其中主观体验本身就是一个东西。

But that's not to divorce it from what's going on the biological level.

但这并不意味着它与生物学层面上正在发生的事情脱节。

But that do not produce hallucinations or massive changes in subjective experience.

但这不会产生幻觉或主观体验的巨大变化。

Actually, I think this is what initially got us into conversation on Twitter as I had learned about this paper published out of a group at UC Davis.

事实上，我认为这就是我们最初在 Twitter 上进行对话的原因，因为我了解到加州大学戴维斯分校的一个小组发表的这篇论文。

That essentially modifying psychedelics so that they have potential therapeutic application for the treatment of depression but zero hallucinogenic properties.

这本质上改变了致幻剂，使其具有治疗抑郁症的潜在治疗应用，但致幻性为零。

And I thought, wow.

我想，哇。

This is going to be a very controversial thing in the world, right?

这将是世界上一件非常有争议的事情，对吗？

Because the history of psychedelics, as you pointed out, has been one of people accessing different modes of thinking, feeling.

因为正如你所指出的，致幻剂的历史一直是人们接触不同思维和感觉模式的历史之一。

Seeing things and letting go.

看到事物并放下。

Trust, et cetera.

信任等等。

A therapeutic relationship.

一种治疗关系。

And here we have-- I don't want to say pharma because it's not really pharma, but we have laboratories who are trying to tease apart the activation of receptors independent of all that subjective experience in order to, essentially, treat the same conditions.

我不想说制药，因为它不是真正的制药，但我们的实验室正在尝试独立于所有主观经验来梳理受体的激活，以便从本质上治疗相同的病症。

I'd love for you to comment on this, where you think it might be going.

我希望您对此发表评论，您认为它可能会走向何方。

And whether or not you think that's the right or the wrong approach, if it has any validity at all.

无论你认为这种方法是正确还是错误，它是否有效。

And I'm also skeptical, because I think it could easily be wishful thinking, because of that point that patients would like it and the system would like it.

我也持怀疑态度，因为我认为这很可能是一厢情愿，因为患者会喜欢它，系统也会喜欢它。

And you got to bear that in mind as well.

你也必须牢记这一点。

So wouldn't it be convenient if it were true and you could get the therapeutic action without the psychedelic effects?

那么如果这是真的并且你可以在没有迷幻效果的情况下获得治疗作用，那不是很方便吗？

And so my point is, what's new?

所以我的观点是，有什么新内容？

OK.

好的。

Maybe it's a bit new and people are now developing direct 2A agonists rather than indirect through a serotonin releaser like the selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors, the SSRIs like Lexapro.

也许这有点新，人们现在正在开发直接的 2A 激动剂，而不是通过血清素释放剂间接开发，如选择性血清素再摄取抑制剂、SSRIs（如 Lexapro）。

And it would be much more like the system we're used to of chronic pharmacotherapy.

它更像是我们习惯的慢性药物治疗系统。

Take your drug every day.

每天服药。

Let's hope they find it and it works for patients sake.

希望他们能找到它，并且它对患者有用。

But as things stand right now, I'm a little skeptical.

但从目前的情况来看，我有点怀疑。

Now, some of the findings that are being seen that are really exciting, fantastic work being done, showing things like increases in the communication components of neurons, dendritic growth, spine growth, synaptic spine growth.

现在，我们看到的一些发现确实令人兴奋，正在进行的出色工作，显示出神经元通讯成分的增加、树突生长、脊柱生长、突触棘生长等。

That reminds me, and I just want to make sure that we close the hatch on the earlier answer, because I interrupted you.

这提醒了我，我只是想确保我们关闭之前的答案，因为我打断了你。

Is the increased connectivity between-- or communication between brain areas that's observed while people are under the influence of the psychedelic also observed later after the effects of the drug wear off?

当人们在迷幻药的影响下观察到的大脑区域之间的连通性或交流的增加是否也在药物作用消失后也观察到了？

Let's say I come into your clinic, I'm a subject in your experiment, I take-- come in the morning, I do my psychedelic journey five or six hours later.

假设我来到你的诊所，我是你实验的受试者，我早上来，五六个小时后我开始迷幻之旅。

I'm parachuting back to reality, as we call it, and then I go home.

我正在跳伞回到现实，正如我们所说的那样，然后我就回家了。

Increase connectivity lasts for how long, and how long are the structural brain changes occurring?

连通性的增强会持续多久？大脑结构的变化会发生多长时间？

Well the answer is, we've seen it in two different depression cohorts, psilocybin therapy for depression.

答案是，我们在两个不同的抑郁症队列中看到了它，即裸盖菇素治疗抑郁症。

In one study where we looked the next day, we saw it.

在我们第二天查看的一项研究中，我们看到了这一点。

A kind of residual effect similar to what you see acutely being seen the next day.

一种类似于你第二天所看到的强烈的残留效应。

And then in a subsequent study, we saw it also three weeks later.

三周后，在随后的研究中，我们也看到了这一点。

So we've seen it in two independent data sets.

所以我们在两个独立的数据集中看到了它。

This decrease in modularity is how we measure it.

模块化程度的降低就是我们衡量它的方式。

It's the same thing, essentially.

本质上是一样的。

Broadly speaking, it's the same thing.

从广义上讲，这是同一件事。

An increase in global connectivity, functional connectivity.

全球连通性、功能连通性的增强。

And actually, unpublished we've seen it in healthy volunteers on a correlational level.

事实上，在未发表的情况下，我们已经在健康志愿者的相关水平上看到了这一点。

Not on an absolute change level, but if you look at its relationship to a mental health outcome, and this is an important thing to stress with the depression work, we saw a relationship between the magnitude of that change, the decrease in modularity or increase in global connectivity, and the improvement in symptom severity.

不是在绝对变化水平上，但如果你看看它与心理健康结果的关系，这是抑郁症工作中需要强调的一件重要事情，我们看到了变化的幅度、模块性的减少或全局连通性的增加以及症状严重程度的改善之间的关系。

But there's a separation or modularity of function.

但存在功能分离或模块化。

This increased connectivity is cross-modular in during the trip, but afterwards as well.

这种增强的连接性在旅行期间是跨模块的，旅行后也是如此。

And you're saying that that correlates very strongly with the strength of the therapeutic outcome for depression.

你说这与抑郁症治疗效果的强度密切相关。

I mean, the logical extension of that is that extreme modularity of brain function is depressive in some way.

我的意思是，其逻辑延伸是，大脑功能的极端模块化在某种程度上是令人沮丧的。

Now, we don't want to go too far, but what does that mean that increasing crosstalk between different modules of the brain is so strongly correlated with a positive therapeutic outcome?

现在，我们不想走得太远，但这意味着大脑不同模块之间的串扰增加与积极的治疗结果密切相关？

But you see different things with different presentations if you were to look at cognition.

但如果你观察认知，你会通过不同的表现看到不同的东西。

Sharper cognition is actually associated with more modularity.

更敏锐的认知实际上与更多的模块化相关。

So it's a rule that's a little slippery.

所以这个规则有点狡猾。

And we need to be careful with it.

我们需要小心对待它。

And then I have friends who are-- let's just call them what they are.

然后我有一些朋友——我们就这样称呼他们吧。

From the creative communities outside of science that are very expansive, they see connections between many different things, but sometimes, you have to-- not all of them, but you have to catch their ideas with a butterfly net.

从科学之外非常广阔的创意社区中，他们看到了许多不同事物之间的联系，但有时，你必须——不是全部，但你必须用蝴蝶网捕捉他们的想法。

And oftentimes, what they're saying sometimes it just doesn't make any sense.

很多时候，他们所说的有时根本没有任何意义。

Now, they also produce incredible creative works.

现在，他们也创作出令人难以置信的创意作品。

But to have a conversation with them is anything but a linear experience.

但与他们交谈绝不是一种线性体验。

They are not random thought generators, but there's a non-linearity or randomness to their processing that's distinct from these other folks that I'm describing on the spectrum.

他们不是随机思想发生器，但他们的处理具有非线性或随机性，这与我在频谱上描述的其他人不同。

And of course, it's a spectrum.

当然，它是一个频谱。

There's a whole range in between.

两者之间有一个完整的范围。

It sounds to me like there is some therapeutic value to being able to move along this continuum from the more linear to the nonlinear.

在我看来，能够沿着这个连续体从线性转向非线性具有一定的治疗价值。

Is that correct?

这是正确的吗？

Yes.

是的。

That's speaking to my intuition to how you're describing it.

这符合我对你如何描述它的直觉。

And I imagine, if you take severe psychopathology, severe mental illness like a depression, I've always thought that there's something intuitive about the term itself.

我想，如果你考虑严重的精神病理学，严重的精神疾病，比如抑郁症，我一直认为这个词本身有一些直观的东西。

Like a depression in a landscape, which is a halt.

就像风景中的凹陷一样，这是一种停顿。

So yes.

所以是的。

I think we're sharing this intuition that a decrease in modularity or an opening up of the system, the brain could relate to an opening up of the mind that is enduring after the psychedelic dosing session.

我认为我们正在分享这种直觉，即模块化程度的降低或系统的开放，大脑可能与迷幻剂给药后持续的思想开放有关。

And yeah.

是的。

And the third replication was to see in healthies an improvement in well-being.

第三次复制是为了观察健康人的幸福感有所改善。

Because they're healthy, we don't look at depression.

因为他们很健康，所以我们不关注抑郁症。

And we now know that even slight reductions in electrolyte concentrations or dehydration of the body can lead to deficits in cognitive and physical performance.

我们现在知道，即使电解质浓度轻微降低或身体脱水也会导致认知和身体表现缺陷。

LMNT contains a science-backed electrolyte ratio of 1,000 milligrams, that's 1 gram of sodium, 200 milligrams of potassium, and 60 milligrams of magnesium.

LMNT 含有科学支持的 1,000 毫克电解质比例，即 1 克钠、200 毫克钾和 60 毫克镁。

I typically drink LMNT first thing in the morning when I wake up in order to hydrate my body and make sure I have enough electrolytes.

我通常早上起床后第一件事就是喝 LMNT，为身体补充水分并确保有足够的电解质。

And while I do any kind of physical training and after physical training as well, especially, if I've been sweating a lot and certainly, I drink LMNT in my water when I'm in the sauna and after going in the sauna, because that causes quite a lot of sweating.

当我进行任何形式的体育训练以及体育训练后时，特别是如果我出汗很多，当然，我在桑拿房和桑拿房后会在水中喝 LMNT，因为这会导致大量出汗。

If you'd like to try LMNT you can go to drinklmnt-- that's L-M-N-T.com/huberman to claim a free LMNT sample pack with your purchase.

如果您想尝试 LMNT，可以前往 Drinklmnt（即 L-M-N-T.com/huberman），在购买时领取免费的 LMNT 样品包。

Again, that's drinklmnt-- L-M-N-T.com/huberman.

再说一遍，那就是 Drinklmnt——L-M-N-T.com/huberman。

Would you say that's right?

你说这样对吗？

That one or two or three sessions, and how far apart are those typically spaced in time?

那一、两、三场会议，这些会议通常在时间上相隔多远？

Basically, many people with anorexia, I think is how it's-- is what one says, not anorexics.

基本上，许多患有厌食症的人，我认为是这样的——正如人们所说的那样，而不是厌食症患者。

But people with anorexia often die.

但患有厌食症的人常常会死亡。

Many of them die.

他们中的许多人都死了。

At what point is that consolidated?

在什么时候进行合并？

Meaning, are these patients or subjects in studies having daily conversation with their therapist?

意思是，这些患者或研究对象是否每天与他们的治疗师交谈？

Are they journaling every day?

他们每天都写日记吗？

And I want to keep in mind that most people are not going to be part of a clinical trial.

我想记住，大多数人不会参加临床试验。

And of course, here we're not suggesting what people do or not do.

当然，我们在这里并不是建议人们做什么或不做什么。

But let's just put it this way.

但我们这样说吧。

Were people to use psychedelics, what is the way that people can maximize on the neuroplasticity and the brain changes in a positive way in the days and weeks afterwards?

如果人们使用迷幻药，人们可以在几天或几周内最大限度地发挥神经可塑性和大脑的积极变化？

In other words, how long does this so-called integration last?

也就是说，这种所谓的融合能持续多久？

And how far can we take this?

我们能走多远？

I mean, I could imagine that how often one chooses to think about the insights could also have an impact.

我的意思是，我可以想象，人们选择思考这些见解的频率也会产生影响。

It's really giving you a leg up, making it easier to do very, very difficult work going back to a trauma.

它确实给你提供了帮助，让你更容易地完成非常非常困难的工作，以恢复创伤。

Trying to digest it, process it, integrate it.

尝试消化它、处理它、整合它。

So it's such an essential component of the treatment model.

所以它是治疗模型的重要组成部分。

But one has to be realistic as well by saying, oh, integration lasts a lifetime.

但我们也必须现实地说，哦，整合将持续一生。

Well, people delivering a service can't be there for a lifetime.

嗯，提供服务的人不可能一辈子都在那里。

So what's the answer there?

那么答案是什么呢？

And people are wrestling with that issue right now.

人们现在正在努力解决这个问题。

And I think one of the solutions might be that it's, in a sense, on you to appoint.

我认为解决方案之一可能是，从某种意义上说，由你来任命。

The therapeutic team can treat you to a point and then it becomes what you might call practice.

治疗团队可以将你治疗到一定程度，然后就变成你所谓的练习。

In a similar way, that meditation is a practice.

同样地，冥想也是一种修行。

It's something that you have to keep up.

这是你必须坚持的事情。

And if it slips, then things could slip.

如果它滑倒了，那么事情就会滑坡。

And that's the way it is.

事情就是这样。

Or you have another psychedelic treatment.

或者你有另一种迷幻疗法。

So people have even used this term of practice in relation to psychedelics, where there's a psychedelic practice like there's a meditation practice.

因此，人们甚至将这个练习术语与迷幻药联系起来，其中有迷幻练习，就像冥想练习一样。

But I'm using meditation intentionally here because they actually think that meditative practice, elements of spiritual practice could be a very important complement to psychedelic therapy.

但我在这里有意使用冥想，因为他们实际上认为冥想练习、精神练习的元素可能是迷幻疗法的一个非常重要的补充。

And I think it's probably doing something similar in terms of promoting an ability to sit with-- a former colleague of mine said it quite well.

我认为它可能在促进坐在一起的能力方面做了类似的事情——我的一位前同事说得很好。

In relation to psychedelic therapy versus chronic pharmacotherapy or like SSRIs being on them all the time.

关于迷幻疗法与长期药物疗法或一直使用的 SSRI 之类的疗法。

Says psychedelic therapy allows you to sit with rather than sit on.

说迷幻疗法可以让你坐在一起而不是坐在上面。

And so that's quite good.

所以这很好。

Yeah.

是的。

So the meditation, the mindfulness, the ability to, yes, be present-centered but also present-centered and accepting so if things come up, you can watch and process and then let go.

所以冥想，正念，是的，以当下为中心的能力，但也要以当下为中心并接受，这样如果事情发生，你可以观察和处理，然后放手。

But what does that mean?

但这意味着什么？

It's saying like, oh, to be the observer but not be drawn into the experience.

它的意思是，哦，成为观察者，但不要被卷入体验中。

And again, I don't want to be overly reductionist, but what I find so compelling about the emerging data, because it really is data, on psychedelics as treatments for depression and trauma, namely psilocybin and MDMA is that it really seems to allow people this space that is so commonly thrown around.

再说一次，我不想过于还原论，但我发现新兴数据如此引人注目，因为它确实是关于迷幻药物作为抑郁症和创伤治疗方法的数据，即裸盖菇素和摇头丸，它似乎确实为人们提供了这个经常被扔掉的空间。

Giving space between stimulus and reaction.

在刺激和反应之间留出空间。

Viktor Frankl talked about this.

维克多·弗兰克尔谈到了这一点。

But I've been reading a wonderful book called The Prince of Medicine.

但我一直在读一本很棒的书，名叫《医学王子》。

Dates back to the origins of medicine.

可以追溯到医学的起源。

Very dense book.

很厚的一本书。

People have been talking about this stuff and thinking about this stuff for thousands of years.

几千年来，人们一直在谈论这些东西并思考这些东西。

Psychedelics seem to give people access to that better version of self, which is remarkable.

迷幻药似乎可以让人们获得更好的自我，这是非常了不起的。

What's also remarkable, it's, perhaps, worth pointing out is that, five years ago, I never would have been comfortable having this conversation.

同样值得注意的是，也许值得指出的是，五年前，我永远不会舒服地进行这样的谈话。

I would have been afraid to lose my job.

我会害怕失去工作。

Stanford Magazine, this week, just published an entire issue about psychedelics with how ketamine works, MDMA, psilocybin with the appropriate cautionary notes in there.

《斯坦福杂志》本周刚刚出版了一整期关于迷幻药的工作原理，其中包括氯胺酮、摇头丸、裸盖菇素的作用原理，并附有适当的注意事项。

But clearly, times are changing.

但显然，时代正在发生变化。

Speaking of which, I know you're doing a trial on first-time use of psychedelics.

说到这里，我知道你正在尝试首次使用迷幻药。

What inspired that?

是什么启发了这个？

And what are you observing?

你在观察什么？

And as you tell us that, please give us a few of the key contours.

当您告诉我们这一点时，请给我们一些关键轮廓。

What's the dose, how old are these subjects?

剂量是多少，这些受试者的年龄有多大？

I'm assuming it's men, women.

我猜是男人，女人。

Are they suffering from depression or not?

他们是否患有抑郁症？

What's the landscape of that study?

这项研究的前景如何？

And I realize this is still early days of the study or maybe it's close to completion.

我意识到这仍处于研究的早期阶段，或者可能已接近完成。

It's not yet published, however, correct?

不过，它还没有发布，对吗？

Yeah.

是的。

For those who got escitalopram, Lexapro for six weeks, they got a very, very low dose of psilocybin.

对于那些服用艾司西酞普兰、Lexapro 六周的人来说，他们服用的是非常非常低剂量的裸盖菇素。

But it allowed us to standardize all the psychotherapy and so on.

但它使我们能够标准化所有的心理治疗等等。

But the other study that you're referring to was in healthy volunteers.

但你提到的另一项研究是针对健康志愿者的。

Middle-aged.

中年。

Average age, I think, was 40.

我认为平均年龄是 40 岁。

So not your typical student study that is so often the case in psychology research.

所以这不是心理学研究中常见的典型学生研究。

All the undergrads end up volunteering for your study.

所有本科生最终都自愿参加您的学习。

So this is more of an age range and also-- I think it was an equal proportion of male and female.

所以这更多的是一个年龄范围，而且——我认为男性和女性的比例相等。

All the staff actually were female, which the staff were very proud of them.

所有的员工实际上都是女性，员工们为此感到非常自豪。

Everyone's healthy volunteers, middle-aged never taken a psychedelic in their life.

大家都是健康的志愿者，中年人一生中从未服用过迷幻药。

None of them.

没有一个。

Entirely fresh, virgin people coming in.

完全新鲜的处女进来了。

And the plan is to give them their first ever psychedelic experience.

我们的计划是给他们第一次迷幻体验。

So that's what we did in this study.

这就是我们在这项研究中所做的。

But to do it, we have this repeated measures design where they'll first get a placebo.

但要做到这一点，我们有一个重复的措施设计，他们首先会得到安慰剂。

And we have the placebo so that we can do all the procedures, all the therapy, all the music listening but not give a whopping dose of psilocybin.

我们有安慰剂，这样我们就可以做所有的手术、所有的治疗、所有的音乐，但不会给予大剂量的裸盖菇素。

Again, we gave them a placebo dose of psilocybin.

我们再次给他们服用安慰剂剂量的裸盖菇素。

1 milligram.

1毫克。

We stick EEG headsets on during the experience to record the brain activity from the scalp, the oscillating electrical activity.

在体验过程中，我们戴上脑电图耳机来记录头皮的大脑活动，即振荡电活动。

And we do the MRI scanning before and after to see deeper into the brain, and we can look at the functional connectivity that we were referring to earlier, and also properties of brain anatomy, which we did in this study.

我们在前后进行 MRI 扫描，以更深入地了解大脑，我们可以查看我们之前提到的功能连接，以及我们在本研究中所做的大脑解剖学特性。

So the short story is that all of the changes that we saw both psychologically and neurobiologically were seen with the 25 milligrams.

简而言之，我们在心理和神经生物学上看到的所有变化都是在 25 毫克剂量下观察到的。

It all happened with that big whopping dose.

这一切都是在大剂量的情况下发生的。

And what did we see?

我们看到了什么？

Well, we did see significant improvements in psychological well-being.

嗯，我们确实看到了心理健康的显着改善。

We saw what I call the entropic brain effect, which is actually formerly quite accurate.

我们看到了我所说的熵脑效应，这实际上以前是相当准确的。

We see an increase in the informational complexity of ongoing brain activity recorded with the EEG on the dose of psilocybin.

我们发现，使用裸盖菇素剂量时，脑电图记录的持续大脑活动的信息复杂性有所增加。

The activity becomes more complex.

活动变得更加复杂。

It's harder to predict across time.

随着时间的推移，预测变得更加困难。

It's more informationally rich.

信息更丰富。

And that effect correlates as it does very reliably with the magnitude of the subjective effect.

这种效应与主观效应的大小非常可靠地相关。

So the bigger the trip, the bigger this entropic brain effect.

所以旅行越远，这种熵脑效应就越大。

Now, pretty well replicated finding.

现在，这一发现得到了很好的复制。

But then the MRI, seeing deep into the brain was probably our most exciting result where we didn't just see some functional brain changes, but we've seen some anatomical brain changes as well.

但核磁共振成像（MRI），深入大脑的观察可能是我们最令人兴奋的结果，我们不仅看到了一些功能性的大脑变化，而且还看到了一些解剖学上的大脑变化。

And we used a technique called diffusion tensor imaging that looks at the cabling of the brain, the white matter tracts.

我们使用了一种称为扩散张量成像的技术来观察大脑的布线，即白质束。

And we saw a change in major tracts.

我们看到主要地区发生了变化。

So we limited our search space to really thick tracts.

所以我们将搜索空间限制在非常厚的区域。

Really thick fibers.

纤维非常粗。

And the fibers that came through as changing were ones that traveled between the prefrontal cortex and the thalamus and the striatum.

发生变化的纤维是在前额皮质、丘脑和纹状体之间传播的纤维。

There were two tracks, two prefrontal tracks that changed.

有两条轨迹，两条前额轨迹发生了变化。

And they changed in the direction of a decrease in axial diffusivity, which could be interpreted as tract integrity where a decrease would be an increase in tract integrity.

它们的变化方向是轴向扩散率降低，这可以解释为管道完整性，其中降低就是管道完整性的增加。

It is something that you see in the developing brain.

这是你在发育中的大脑中看到的东西。

The axial diffusivity decreases as the brain goes from being a baby to being an adult.

随着大脑从婴儿到成人，轴向扩散率降低。

Axial diffusivity goes down.

轴向扩散率下降。

And then in aging and pathologies of aging, axial diffusivity goes up.

然后，在衰老和衰老病理中，轴向扩散率上升。

And your description of this as somewhat like the transition from babyhood and childhood to adulthood.

你对此的描述有点像从婴儿期和童年到成年的过渡。

Speaks to the same where we know that there's a massive culling of connections as opposed to growth of connections.

我们知道存在大量的连接剔除而不是连接的增长，这也是同样的道理。

So in other words, as we get older, we get better at doing certain things and less good at doing potentially most everything else.

换句话说，随着年龄的增长，我们在某些事情上会做得更好，而在其他大多数事情上，我们可能会变得不那么擅长。

Is that right?

是这样吗？

And if they are, we say they're functionally connected.

如果是的话，我们就说它们在功能上是相关的。

And we infer that they're talking to each other, because they go up and down in synchrony.

我们推断它们正在互相交谈，因为它们同步上下移动。

But when it comes to the anatomy, we're talking about the just static material stuff.

但当谈到解剖学时，我们谈论的只是静态材料。

And so we're seeing the fibers and a property of the fibers change.

所以我们看到纤维和纤维的特性发生了变化。

At least that's what we think.

至少我们是这么认为的。

And recently, we had an independent person come in and reanalyze the data, because one of those things, incredible finding requires credible evidence, really strong evidence.

最近，我们有一个独立的人进来重新分析数据，因为其中之一，令人难以置信的发现需要可靠的证据，非常有力的证据。

And I would say, the evidence at the moment is one study.

我想说，目前的证据只是一项研究。

So we need to be cautious on that.

所以我们对此需要保持谨慎。

But we did re-analyze it and use this correction procedure-free water correction to be more sure that it was a change in the actual microstructure rather than something to do with the extracellular space.

但我们确实重新分析了它，并使用这种无需校正程序的水校正来更加确定这是实际微观结构的变化，而不是与细胞外空间有关。

The water surrounding the fibers.

纤维周围的水。

And it came through.

它成功了。

In fact, the change was strengthened by doing this correction step.

事实上，通过执行此修正步骤，这种变化得到了加强。

We did look at their cognition, and we used a cognitive flexibility paradigm that looks at people's ability to notice a rule change and then flexibly adapt their behavior based on noticing this rule change and people improved after the 25 milligrams and didn't significantly improve after the placebo dose.

我们确实观察了他们的认知，我们使用了认知灵活性范式，考察人们注意到规则变化的能力，然后根据注意到这一规则变化灵活调整他们的行为，人们在服用 25 毫克后有所改善，而服用安慰剂后并没有显着改善。

There weren't correlations with the DTI change, the cabling change and these psychological outcomes.

与 DTI 变化、布线变化和这些心理结果没有相关性。

But with these studies and smaller sample sizes, you don't always see those correlations come through.

但通过这些研究和较小的样本量，您并不总是能看到这些相关性。

So it's something.

所以这是一些东西。

We don't know what it means.

我们不知道这意味着什么。

But it's a change in brain anatomy that's in the opposite direction to what you see in an aging brain or with pathology of aging.

但这是大脑解剖结构的变化，与你在衰老的大脑或衰老病理学中看到的方向相反。

And it's what you see in a healthy brain as it goes from normal neurodevelopment into adulthood.

这就是你在健康的大脑中看到的从正常神经发育到成年的过程。

I want to hear a bit about the study that you have been carrying out on the use of psilocybin for the treatment of fibromyalgia.

我想听听您正在进行的使用裸盖菇素治疗纤维肌痛的研究。

I'm intrigued by fibromyalgia, because I have a good friend who also-- I won't reveal who it is.

我对纤维肌痛很感兴趣，因为我有一个好朋友，我不会透露他是谁。

No. It's not me.

不，这不是我。

This isn't the "I have a friend thing." Who also is a scientist who sits at a fairly high position in the National Institutes of Health who quietly has expressed to me that they are incredibly frustrated with the fact that the standard medical community has largely ignored fibromyalgia.

这不是“我有一个朋友”的事情。他也是一位在美国国立卫生研究院担任相当高职位的科学家，他悄悄地向我表示，他们对标准医学界在很大程度上忽视纤维肌痛这一事实感到非常沮丧。

And that for many years, it was lumped with things like chronic fatigue syndrome and other so-called-- again, so-called.

多年来，它与慢性疲劳综合症和其他所谓的疾病混为一谈。

I'm not saying this.

我不是说这个。

But people often refer to these as, oh.

但人们常常将这些称为“哦”。

It's psychosomatic.

这是心身的。

That's all in your head.

这就是你脑子里的一切。

Which, as a neuroscientist, is a ridiculous statement to hear, because it's all in your head.

作为一名神经科学家，这是一个荒谬的说法，因为这一切都在你的脑海里。

Your brain is in your head after all.

毕竟你的大脑就在你的脑袋里。

Your physiology and your psychology are influencing each other.

你的生理和心理正在相互影响。

Of course.

当然。

And the world is starting to appreciate that more.

世界开始更加重视这一点。

But first of all, maybe you could tell people what fibromyalgia is, what inspired you to do a study on fibromyalgia using psilocybin of all things because that's surprising to me.

但首先，也许你可以告诉人们什么是纤维肌痛，是什么激发你使用裸盖菇素进行纤维肌痛研究，因为这让我感到惊讶。

And if you are allowed to or if you have access to the data in mind, share with us a little bit about what you're discovering in that study.

如果您被允许或者您可以访问您想要的数据，请与我们分享一些您在该研究中发现的内容。

And for that reason, it's hard to know what it is.

因此，很难知道它是什么。

And that's why it's been a controversial space in medicine and it's been-- yeah.

这就是为什么它在医学领域一直是一个有争议的领域，而且是的。

It's had that charge thrown at it that maybe it's psychosomatic, and just to your point, is anything ever independent of the mind, anyway.

有人指责它可能是心身性的，就你的观点而言，无论如何，它是任何独立于心灵的东西。

But this is actually a fascinating space for how subjective experience, the lived experience, and the mind can influence the body.

但这实际上是一个关于主观体验、生活体验和思想如何影响身体的迷人空间。

Because there's some really interesting literature around the etiology.

因为关于病因学有一些非常有趣的文献。

How the pain has come about.

疼痛是怎么来的。

In a sense like what caused the pain.

从某种意义上说，就像造成疼痛的原因一样。

What's the story there?

那里有什么故事？

And the head of the trial, I would say to my colleagues, let's just be careful.

我想对审判负责人对我的同事们说，我们要小心一点。

Because there is some fascinating literature around things like a background of trauma and how that can relate to issues related to inflammation and how that can express into things like fibromyalgia syndrome.

因为有一些引人入胜的文献涉及创伤背景等问题，以及创伤背景如何与炎症相关问题相关，以及如何表达为纤维肌痛综合征等问题。

I just said, be very careful there, because if you go in with an assumption that there's some buried trauma, for example, then there's that whole other side of psychoanalysis that massively tripped it up around false memory and so on.

我只是说，要非常小心，因为如果你假设存在一些被埋藏的创伤，那么精神分析的整个另一面就会在错误记忆等方面严重陷入困境。

And so please don't hold prior assumptions that you're going to uncover buried trauma in every case.

因此，请不要先假设您将在每种情况下发现埋藏的创伤。

Now, the team of treated, I think, eight people and it is going very well.

现在，我认为治疗团队有八个人，进展顺利。

Again, I just want to be careful with how I describe it to manage expectations and not get too carried away.

再说一次，我只是想小心地描述它，以管理期望，不要太得意忘形。

But I check in with the team every week, and they're still based in London doing the work.

但我每周都会与团队联系，他们仍然在伦敦做这项工作。

And it's remarkable what I hear about the profound experiences that people have under the drug.

我所听到的人们在吸毒后所获得的深刻体验是很了不起的。

In this study, we only give one dose.

在这项研究中，我们只给予一剂。

It's a very mechanistic study.

这是一项非常机械化的研究。

We actually have the EEG cap on in the sessions like in the healthy volunteer study, but this time now taking it into a clinical population.

实际上，我们在健康志愿者研究中设置了脑电图上限，但这次现在将其纳入临床人群。

And--

还有——

So the pain is there, but there isn't an invitation to focus on it.

所以痛苦是存在的，但并没有邀请人们去关注它。

And that's probably one of the differences with classic psychedelic therapy versus MDMA therapy.

这可能是经典迷幻疗法与 MDMA 疗法的区别之一。

Arguably, MDMA therapy is more like it's a bit closer to traditional talk therapy where there is more dialogue.

可以说，MDMA 疗法更像是更接近传统的谈话疗法，其中有更多的对话。

People are able to talk on MDMA.

人们可以谈论 MDMA。

Again, I'm not trying to trivialize those experiences.

再说一遍，我并不是想淡化这些经历。

I mean, obviously, they can be profound.

我的意思是，显然，它们可能是深刻的。

So I'm told.

有人告诉我。

But the MDMA trials seem to involve, as you said, more directed dialogue.

但正如您所说，MDMA 试验似乎涉及更直接的对话。

And sometimes, even empathic connection between people by they're actually looking at one another, the eyes and eye contact being such a key part of the human social cognitive connective networks.

有时，甚至人们之间的移情联系也通过他们实际上互相看着对方而实现，眼睛和目光接触是人类社会认知连接网络的关键部分。

So do you know if they put eye masks on people during the therapeutic session?

那么你知道他们在治疗过程中是否给人们戴上眼罩吗？

And it's this notion of the inner healer.

这就是内在治愈者的概念。

They use that language a lot.

他们经常使用这种语言。

It's been critiqued because it sounds very suggestive.

它受到批评，因为它听起来很有启发性。

You know?

你知道？

And that's probably one of the vehicles here.

这可能就是这里的其中一辆车。

Driving the therapeutic process is suggestion.

推动治疗过程的是建议。

I think we have to be honest about that.

我认为我们必须对此诚实。

So when they go inside, that's another term that we use very much in the classic psychedelic therapy work.

所以当他们进去时，这是我们在经典迷幻治疗工作中经常使用的另一个术语。

You go inside.

你进去吧。

You put the eyeshades on, and people are encouraged to go inside.

你戴上眼罩，人们就会被鼓励进去。

But when they do that in the MDMA work, especially, they might be told explicitly and listen to the inner healer and that language.

但当他们在摇头丸工作中这样做时，尤其是，他们可能会被明确告知并倾听内在治疗师和那种语言。

So you could see how a cynic or a skeptic could come in and see that as some kind of like suggestive priming or biasing.

所以你可以看到愤世嫉俗者或怀疑论者如何介入并将其视为某种暗示性启动或偏见。

I think they have a point.

我认为他们说得有道理。

Skeptics often do, but I don't think it's all of the story.

怀疑论者经常这样做，但我认为这并不是故事的全部。

And just briefly, because it's an interesting point, speaking to that point a bit in our psilocybin therapy versus escitalopram trial, we measured pre-trial expectancy.

简而言之，因为这是一个有趣的点，在我们的裸盖菇素治疗与艾司西酞普兰试验中稍微谈到了这一点，我们测量了试验前的预期。

And we did it for both conditions.

我们针对这两种情况都这样做了。

So what kind of improvement do you expect with the Lexapro, the escitalopram at the end of the trial?

那么，您预计 Lexapro（艾司西酞普兰）在试验结束时会有什么样的改善？

And what kind of improvement if you go into the psilocybin arm and get two big doses of psilocybin.

如果您进入裸盖菇素组并服用两大剂量的裸盖菇素，会有什么样的改善。

What kind of improvement do you think you'll see in that arm?

您认为您的手臂会有什么样的改善？

And of course, it was a coin flip as to what arm people went into and there was no crossover.

当然，这就像抛硬币一样，人们会选择哪一种手臂，并且没有交叉。

What we found was that it was true that we had a sample bias, so most people had higher expectation stations.

我们发现，我们确实存在样本偏差，因此大多数人都有更高的期望站。

On average, there were higher expectations for psilocybin and its efficacy or effectiveness versus the SSRI, the Lexapro.

平均而言，与 SSRI、Lexapro 相比，人们对裸盖菇素及其功效或效果的期望更高。

However, when we looked at the correlation or the predictive relationship between pre-trial expectancy and response, we saw that pre-trial expectancy for the escitalopram predicted response to escitalopram across virtually every single measure, all these different measures of depression and anxiety and well-being, and I think none of the scales.

然而，当我们研究审前预期和反应之间的相关性或预测关系时，我们发现艾司西酞普兰的审前预期几乎可以在每一项测量中预测对艾司西酞普兰的反应，所有这些不同的抑郁、焦虑和幸福感测量，我认为没有一个量表。

I'm pretty sure it was none of about 12 or so mental health rating scales.

我很确定这不是大约 12 个心理健康评级量表中的一个。

Was there a relationship between pre-trial expectancy?

审前预期之间是否存在关系？

Even though it was high, it didn't predict-- pre-trial expectancy didn't predict response to the psilocybin therapy.

尽管它很高，但它并不能预测——试验前的预期并不能预测对裸盖菇素治疗的反应。

So that was a bit of a smash on the head for the idea that the classic psychedelic therapy is some kind of placebo response.

因此，对于经典迷幻疗法是某种安慰剂反应的想法来说，这有点令人震惊。

And I think it's so important to address that question.

我认为解决这个问题非常重要。

Because if it doesn't come through as it didn't come through, then it opens up even more intrigue about, well, what is it then?

因为如果它没有通过，就像它没有通过一样，那么它就会引发更多的阴谋，那么，它是什么？

If it's not just a placebo response or a super placebo response like an amplification of the placebo response, then it must be something else.

如果这不仅仅是安慰剂反应或超级安慰剂反应（例如安慰剂反应的放大），那么它一定是其他东西。

And how intriguing?

有多有趣？

It has a direct therapeutic action.

它具有直接的治疗作用。

It must be something.

一定是有什么东西。

And we don't yet know what it is.

我们还不知道它是什么。

I talked about the residual increase in global connectivity.

我谈到了全球连通性的剩余增长。

That's one possibility.

这是一种可能性。

But the truth is, we're just scratching the surface.

但事实是，我们只是触及了表面。

Why the lack of attention toward LSD?

为什么人们对 LSD 缺乏关注？

Is it that the LSD trips are just too long?

是LSD 行程太长了吗？

Is it that they are qualitatively different?

难道他们有质的不同吗？

Are there any data on non-microdoses of LSD?

有非微剂量 LSD 的数据吗？

And here I want to be very careful, because I learned through my interactions on social media that this term microdose is very misleading.

在这里我要非常小心，因为我通过社交媒体上的互动了解到，微剂量这个词非常具有误导性。

And in some cases, can be dangerously misleading, because, as you mentioned earlier, the effective psychedelic dose or the-- effective meaning that can induce a real trip with hallucinations, et cetera, of LSD is actually in the microgram range.

在某些情况下，这可能会产生危险的误导，因为正如您之前提到的，LSD 的有效迷幻剂量或可以诱发真正的幻觉等的有效含义实际上在微克范围内。

So some people hear microdose, and they think microgram of LSD is a-- micrograms is a microdose when, in fact, a macrodose of LSD can be measured in micrograms, right?

所以有些人听到微剂量，他们认为微克 LSD 是微克，而事实上，大剂量 LSD 可以用微克来衡量，对吗？

So this is where in the absence of scientific training, people can really go astray.

所以，如果没有科学训练，人们真的会误入歧途。

Or even just in lack of understanding of the metric system.

或者甚至只是缺乏对公制的了解。

And since now you're a recent arrival to the US, fortunate for us.

现在你刚刚抵达美国，这对我们来说很幸运。

Sorry.

对不起。

England's loss is the US's gain by-- Robbins Lab moved from England to the United States recently.

英国的损失是美国的收获——罗宾斯实验室最近从英国搬到了美国。

So score 1 for us.

所以我们得 1 分。

But why isn't there more use of LSD in these trials?

但为什么这些试验中没有更多地使用LSD呢？

So you could appeal to that precedence and say, well, they're doing it over there.

所以你可以诉诸这种优先顺序并说，好吧，他们正在那里做。

Can we not do it in little England?

我们不能在小英格兰这样做吗？

So that's how it worked for us.

这就是它对我们的作用。

We did actually go on and do an LSD study once we'd laid the foundations for doing this kind of work.

一旦我们为此类工作奠定了基础，我们实际上就继续进行了 LSD 研究。

And it was a brain imaging study.

这是一项脑成像研究。

It was a really extensive one actually where we used both MRI and another modality called MEG, sort of super EEG in a sense.

实际上，这是一个非常广泛的研究，我们同时使用了 MRI 和另一种称为 MEG 的模式，从某种意义上说，有点像超级脑电图。

But you know, why didn't that turn our heads to think, oh, should we not be doing our trials with LSD?

但你知道，为什么我们没有转头思考，哦，我们不应该用 LSD 进行试验吗？

It does have something to do with the pragmatics like a study day with psilocybin is long enough.

这确实与语用学有关，比如用裸盖菇素学习一天就足够长了。

So these are long, long acute electrophysiological recordings.

所以这些都是很长很长的急性电生理记录。

So yeah.

所以是的。

No scientist does it for the money, I promise you.

我向你保证，没有科学家会为了钱而做这件事。

There is money in pharma, there is not money in personal income.

制药业有钱，个人收入没有钱。

It's not lucrative for the basic scientist.

这对于基础科学家来说并不有利可图。

So yes.

所以是的。

LSD is what?

LSD是什么？

Anywhere from 8 to 15 hours, something like that.

8到15个小时，差不多。

Even with psilocybin, you have people still at work into the evening.

即使使用了裸盖菇素，人们仍然会工作到晚上。

And the staff are always there later, of course, because they've got to pack up and yeah.

当然，工作人员总是稍后才到，因为他们必须收拾行李，是的。

So these are long days.

所以这是漫长的日子。

And it's too much, you know?

而且这太过分了，你知道吗？

That the reason that the eating period in these studies-- in animals and now on humans is 8 hours, the feeding window in these studies is because the graduate student was going to, otherwise, lose their relationship.

这些研究中的进食时间（在动物和现在的人类中）之所以是 8 小时，这些研究中的进食窗口是因为研究生否则就会失去他们的关系。

Because their significant other says, listen, you can be in the lab for 12 hours, that meant some hours before the experiment, then 8 hours, and then some hours afterwards.

因为他们的另一半说，听着，你可以在实验室呆 12 个小时，这意味着实验前几个小时，然后是 8 小时，然后是实验后几个小时。

But you can't stay in there longer.

但你不能再呆在那里了。

And many people use the eight-hour feeding window as a consequence.

因此，许多人都会使用八小时的喂食时间。

So the scientist has to exist and be carried out in real-world frame.

因此，科学家必须在现实世界的框架中存在和开展。

There's another one that involves LSD too.

还有另一种也涉及LSD。

Again, I'm not suggesting people do these drug combinations.

再次强调，我并不是建议人们使用这些药物组合。

But the way it was described to me was that the psilocybin, because it's so serotonergic, sometimes can be not a downer but can have a bit of kind of a murky feel to it.

但向我描述的方式是裸盖菇素，因为它具有很强的血清素能，有时可能不是镇静剂，但可能有一点阴暗的感觉。

Some real deep introspection, sometimes in the darker realms of one's psyche depressive thoughts, et cetera.

一些真正深刻的内省，有时是在一个人心灵的黑暗领域抑郁的想法，等等。

Not that it necessarily stays that way throughout the trip, but that the MDMA, because it has a very strongly serotonergic but also dopaminergic-- I mean, it has an amphetamine component.

并不是说它在整个旅程中一定保持这种状态，而是摇头丸，因为它具有非常强的血清素能，但也具有多巴胺能——我的意思是，它含有安非他明成分。

Cocaine-like, in fact.

事实上，就像可卡因一样。

If you've ever seen someone on MDMA, their pupils are about the size of a quarters.

如果您见过服用摇头丸的人，他们的瞳孔大约有 25 美分硬币大小。

For a reason, they're extreme autonomic arousal compared to a sedative, which by the way, would constrict the pupils.

出于某种原因，与镇静剂相比，它们是极端的自主神经唤醒，顺便说一句，镇静剂会收缩瞳孔。

So they describe the use of MDMA to balance out the affect component of it.

因此他们描述了使用 MDMA 来平衡其影响成分。

What are your thoughts on combination psilocybin MDMA?

您对组合赛洛西宾 MDMA 有什么看法？

Does this hold any therapeutic potential?

这有治疗潜力吗？

This is, obviously, backyard chemistry in the sense that people are cowboying this stuff on their own, which again, I don't really recommend.

显然，这是后院化学，因为人们自己在牛仔这些东西，我再次不推荐这样做。

I'd like to see the science go first, but I understand this is how it works in the real world.

我希望看到科学先行，但我知道这就是它在现实世界中的运作方式。

Yeah.

是的。

What are your thoughts on combining compounds?

您对组合化合物有何看法？

There will have been trial and error there.

那里将会有反复试验。

It might not be as systematic as the science we do today, but maybe there's been a learning process.

它可能不像我们今天所做的科学那么系统，但也许有一个学习过程。

And maybe what they do, they've come to because they found it works.

也许他们所做的事情是因为他们发现它有效。

So by that principle, I'm interested in that combination and whether it does offer some advantages, maybe, in certain patients.

因此，根据这一原则，我对这种组合以及它是否确实为某些患者提供了一些优势感兴趣。

One of the buzz terms in medicine these days is precision medicine.

如今医学界的热门术语之一是精准医学。

A precision medicine and personalized medicine.

精准医疗和个性化医疗。

So maybe there are certain cases where introducing say, psilocybin after the MDMA or the other way around could offer some advantages.

因此，也许在某些情况下，在 MDMA 之后引入裸盖菇素或相反的方式可以提供一些优势。

And the differences are interesting.

这些差异很有趣。

Psilocybin can get you to deep places.

裸盖菇素可以带你到达深处。

Maybe the kernel of your suffering and major life experiences and complexes that are causally linked to whatever the pathology that you're presenting with.

也许你的痛苦和主要生活经历和情结的核心与你所呈现的病理状况有因果关系。

But it can do it, sometimes, quite aggressively.

但有时它可以非常激进地做到这一点。

And if it say, post-traumatic stress disorder, it can be overwhelming.

如果说是创伤后应激障碍，那可能会让人不知所措。

And you can fight it.

你可以对抗它。

And really, it's that.

确实，就是这样。

The resistance is really challenged, and they fight back.

抵抗运动确实受到了挑战，他们进行了反击。

And the therapeutic breakthrough and the progress isn't happening because you've agitated the defense mechanisms.

治疗上的突破和进展并没有发生，因为你扰乱了防御机制。

Whereas what MDMA offers is something arguably more directionally reliable in terms of the valence.

而 MDMA 提供的东西在化合价方面可以说是更有方向性的可靠的东西。

It's more directionally positive generally, an MDMA experience.

一般来说，MDMA 体验更具方向性。

And I'm glad that they did turn the music off, because the moment they did, I was able to drop in within the eye mask to this sort of go inward and address some certain issues that at least to me felt key and productive.

我很高兴他们确实关掉了音乐，因为当他们关掉音乐的那一刻，我就能够进入眼罩，进入内心并解决一些至少对我来说至关重要且富有成效的问题。

So that seems to be the kind of hazard with MDMA.

这似乎就是摇头丸的危害。

Is that it's such an empathogen that one could start to-- you could go down any number of different rabbit holes.

它是一种共情剂，人们可以开始——你可以进入任意数量的不同的兔子洞。

But we're going to set it up so that you can go back there and feel safer and more trusting and be able to go back there whereas you've never, otherwise, been able to go back there without dissociating or having horrible flashbacks and so on.

但我们将把它设置好，这样你就可以回到那里，感到更安全、更信任，并且能够回到那里，而你以前从来没有能够回到那里，而不会出现分离或出现可怕的闪回等情况。

So that's the strength that it offers.

这就是它所提供的力量。

I guess the limitation would be that, maybe, it doesn't take you as deep as the classic psychedelics.

我想它的局限性在于，也许它不会像经典迷幻药那样让你深入。

And I tend to think I'm biased on this one, that there's a kind of honesty to the classics in that it is hell as well as heaven.

我倾向于认为我对这一点有偏见，即对经典有一种诚实，因为它既是地狱也是天堂。

And that's the psyche.

这就是心理。

It isn't all roses.

并非全是玫瑰。

And my close colleague, close, close colleague at Stanford, Dr. David Spiegel, our Associate Chair of Psychiatries, Clinical Hypnotist.

还有我亲密的同事，斯坦福大学亲密的同事，大卫·斯皮格尔博士，我们的精神病学副主任，临床催眠师。

Amazing human being and scientist and clinician, has really just embedded this in my mind.

了不起的人类、科学家和临床医生，真的把这一点深深地印在了我的脑海里。

That the only way to deal with trauma is to get right up next to that trauma to the point where some relief is experienced.

处理创伤的唯一方法就是直面创伤，直到经历一些缓解。

There is no other real way.

没有其他真正的办法。

And so, I really appreciate that you're saying that the classic psychedelics may offer with a very strong nudge, perhaps, the opportunity to get into the uncomfortable in a way that MDMA or some non-classical psychedelics, perhaps, do not.

所以，我真的很欣赏你所说的经典迷幻药可能会提供非常强烈的推动力，也许，有机会以摇头丸或一些非经典迷幻药所没有的方式进入不舒服的状态。

We were talking about time frames or duration of trips and these different compounds and how they differ and how they're similar.

我们讨论了旅行的时间范围或持续时间以及这些不同的化合物以及它们的不同之处和相似之处。

I'd love for you to educate me on DMT and some of the work that you're doing with DMT.

我希望您能向我介绍 DMT 以及您在 DMT 方面所做的一些工作。

My understanding is that it's a very brief trip minutes.

我的理解是，这是一次非常短暂的旅行。

People I know who have done this.

我认识的人都做过这件事。

Again, therapeutically, actually, I'll just point to one very exciting, I think, group and initiative which is the Veterans Solutions Initiative, which is a group-- this is carried out in Mexico, but in conjunction with laboratories at Stanford and elsewhere who are evaluating the neural changes.

再次，在治疗方面，实际上，我只想指出一个非常令人兴奋的团体和倡议，即退伍军人解决方案倡议，这是一个在墨西哥进行的团体，但与斯坦福大学和其他正在评估神经变化的实验室合作。

And this involves ibogaine, which is iboga, which is a very long duration psychedelic.

这涉及到伊博加因，即伊博加，这是一种持续时间非常长的致幻剂。

22 hours or more, followed by I think one or two doses of DMT.

22 小时或更长时间，然后我认为是一剂或两剂 DMT。

This is for veterans to deal with any number of issues.

这是为了让退伍军人处理许多问题。

Appears to be working with great success.

看来工作取得了巨大成功。

And I've spoken to several people who've gone through this.

我和几个经历过这种事的人谈过。

And the way that they described DMT, almost across the board, was quote, here I'm just pulling quotes, right?

他们描述 DMT 的方式，几乎一刀切，都是引用，这里我只是引用，对吧？

Anecdata.

轶事。

The most profound experience of my entire life, even greater than the birth of my children, quote, "like being attached to the shockwave of an atom bomb." Quote.

我一生中最深刻的经历，甚至比我孩子的出生更伟大，引用，“就像附着在原子弹的冲击波上一样。”引用。

"There's no way I would do another dose, because the first one was so unbelievable." Interesting, by the way.

“我不可能再服一剂，因为第一剂太令人难以置信了。”顺便说一句，很有趣。

I think most of us, including me, would think, why wouldn't you want to do it again then?

我想我们大多数人，包括我，都会想，为什么你不想再做一次呢？

But this idea that that was just beyond anything.

但这种想法是超越一切的。

So these are significant-- excuse me these are significant statements coming from individuals who have existed at the extremes of human experience to begin with.

所以这些都很重要——请原谅，这些重要的陈述来自那些一开始就存在于人类极端经历中的人。

These are so-called tier 1 operators within special operations who exit and may or may not have trauma.

这些是特种行动中所谓的一级操作员，他们退出后可能会或可能不会受到创伤。

But DMT sounds like a big deal.

但 DMT 听起来很重要。

But that's matched by it's stickiness for the serotonin 2A receptor, which is this kind of golden rule in psychedelic sciences that it was discovered in the mid 1980s.

但这与它对血清素 2A 受体的粘性相匹配，这是 20 世纪 80 年代中期发现的迷幻科学的黄金法则。

This tight relationship between the affinity or the stickiness or the binding potential of a psychedelic for 2A receptor, in particular.

尤其是迷幻药与 2A 受体的亲和力、粘性或结合潜力之间的紧密关系。

Serotonin 2A and its potency.

血清素 2A 及其效力。

And the stickier the drug, the more potent.

而且药物越粘，药效就越强。

So LSD really sticky.

所以 LSD 真的很粘。

Very, very potent.

非常非常有力。

You only need those tiny microgram doses.

您只需要那些微小的微克剂量。

So DMT, by its affinity, is a little less potent, but by its effects when you give a standard dose, it's just wild.

因此，从其亲和力来看，DMT 的效力稍弱一些，但从给予标准剂量时的效果来看，它的作用非常强大。

And DMT, because there's another compound called 5-methoxy DMT, which is a bit different pharmacologically and subjectively, it's similar in terms of its kinetics.

还有DMT，因为还有另一种化合物叫做5-甲氧基DMT，它在药理学和主观上有点不同，但在动力学方面是相似的。

It's another rocket ship.

这是另一艘火箭飞船。

Both compounds in the wild, so to speak, are smoked often.

可以说，这两种化合物在野外都经常被吸食。

DMT and 5-MeO.

DMT 和 5-MeO。

People are vaping both actually now.

现在人们实际上都在吸电子烟。

There are vape pens that are being developed for people to administer this, but more traditionally, it's been a smoking thing.

人们正在开发电子烟笔来管理这一点，但更传统的是，它是一种吸烟的东西。

Phenomenologically, if there's a difference between DMT and 5-MeO, people might put it on 5-MeO being more of a reliable ego dissolution experience.

从现象学角度来看，如果 DMT 和 5-MeO 之间存在差异，人们可能会认为 5-MeO 更可靠，是一种更可靠的自我消解体验。

Less visual and more all round immersion in the greater whole loss of self-identity and just immersion in everything.

更少的视觉和更多的全面沉浸在自我认同的更大整体丧失中，只是沉浸在一切事物中。

And that there are objects in the world and people in the world beyond us.

世界上还有我们之外的物体和人。

But every time I hear about ego dissolution, it sounds like it's kind of a temporary elimination of the idea that things start and stop between us and everything else.

但每次我听到“自我消解”，听起来就像是暂时消除了“事物在我们和其他事物之间开始和停止”的想法。

Almost like in a kind of a-- here I'm not trying to sound philosophical or metaphysical, but there's the molecular continuity of life, right?

几乎就像在某种意义上——在这里，我不想听起来哲学或形而上学，但生命的分子连续性，对吧？

We're all just little bits--

我们都只是小人物——

What is ego dissolution?

什么是自我消解？

And why would this serotonin 2A activation cause that?

为什么血清素 2A 激活会导致这种情况？

That's remarkable.

这太了不起了。

And so a major characteristic of the ego dissolution experience rather than just a negative, a thing going away.

因此，自我消解体验的一个主要特征而不仅仅是消极的，即事物消失。

My sense of self going away is the positive.

我的自我消失的感觉是积极的。

Oh.

哦。

Now, I feel interconnected with other people and the world at large.

现在，我感到与其他人和整个世界相互联系。

And I realize that there is that molecular continuity.

我意识到存在分子连续性。

And actually, that's a ground truth.

事实上，这是一个基本事实。

And oh, maybe the ego thing is somewhat illusory or at least a construction of my mind.

哦，也许自我的东西有点虚幻，或者至少是我头脑的构建。

Perhaps, not the narcissists out there listening.

也许，不是那些在外面听的自恋者。

They'll be like, of course, empathy for self.

当然，他们会像对自我的同理心。

But everyone else, I think, all the other healthy people or the healthy people other than narcissists and not picking on narcissists.

但我想，其他所有人，所有其他健康的人，或者除了自恋者之外的健康人，都不会欺负自恋者。

I have to imagine they suffer too.

我不得不想象他们也受苦。

In fact, I think that's the root of their narcissism.

事实上，我认为这就是他们自恋的根源。

That empathy for self is not something that comes reflexively for most people.

对于大多数人来说，对自我的同理心并不是本能地产生的。

And here I'm not talking about self love or self respect.

在这里我不是在谈论自爱或自尊。

But this notion of being able to see the self as not just deserving of love and care but actually holding that in place while in confrontation with something challenging in a way that allows a more, not less access to adaptive responses to that challenge.

但这种观念是，能够看到自我不仅值得爱和关心，而且在面对挑战时实际上能够将其保持在适当的位置，从而允许更多而不是更少地对挑战做出适应性反应。

I think that's the way I conceptualize it.

我想这就是我的概念化方式。

If you look at a mapping of cortical expansion from say, macaque or chimp to human, it's the very same map that you'll find the 2A receptors in.

如果你观察从猕猴或黑猩猩到人类的皮质扩张图谱，你会在同一张图谱中找到 2A 受体。

So that's the target.

这就是目标。

And it's just easy to think that-- oh, well, that could be the egoic brain and the classic psychedelics come in.

人们很容易想到——哦，好吧，这可能是自我大脑和经典迷幻剂的作用。

They scramble up the activity.

他们争先恐后地开展活动。

That's the entropic brain action.

这就是大脑的熵作用。

And in terms of the start/stop, the boundaries, that entropic action spreads out the system.

就开始/停止、边界而言，熵作用扩展了系统。

It doesn't shut it off.

它不会关闭它。

It spreads it out.

它把它传播出去。

So the ego might go away during the trip, and you have these profound insights about the molecular continuity and how we're all one and interconnected.

因此，在旅途中，自我可能会消失，你会对分子连续性以及我们如何一体和相互联系产生深刻的见解。

And then you come down, and however long later, the ego comes back, but maybe with a vengeance.

然后你就下来了，不管过了多久，自我又回来了，但也许是报复性的。

And sadly, things can go awry when people haven't done the work.

可悲的是，当人们没有完成工作时，事情可能会出错。

Perhaps haven't done the integration work and maybe ego defenses come back and it's not a pretty picture.

也许还没有完成整合工作，也许自我防御又回来了，这不是一个美好的画面。

If their histories are histories of chronic depression, then while you might give them a window of wellness, sadly, it doesn't last.

如果他们的历史是慢性抑郁症的历史，那么虽然你可能会给他们一个健康的窗口，但遗憾的是，它不会持久。

That's not to say that it doesn't ever last.

这并不是说它不会持续下去。

It does.

确实如此。

And we have people who are in our first treatment resistant depression trial who are well to my knowledge today, back at work doing fantastically well.

据我所知，我们有一些正在参加第一个难治性抑郁症试验的人，他们回到工作岗位后表现得非常好。

But sadly, the majority have relapsed, to my knowledge.

但可悲的是，据我所知，大多数人都复发了。

And worse still, if they were to have that treatment, they would be committing a crime.

更糟糕的是，如果他们接受这种待遇，他们就会犯罪。

It's a sick joke in a way.

从某种程度上来说，这是一个病态的笑话。

But that's the situation that we've been in.

但这就是我们一直处于的情况。

The landscape out there is very unclear to me.

外面的风景对我来说很不清楚。

Maybe I'll just call out some silos as I see them and maybe we can draw some bridges between them, if they exist.

也许我会在看到一些孤岛时指出它们，也许我们可以在它们之间架起一些桥梁（如果它们存在的话）。

At the ground level, not the grassroots, but at the ground level, I look to laboratories like yours, Matthew Johnson's, Roland Griffith's some laboratories at Stanford.

在底层，不是基层，而是在底层，我关注像你们、马修·约翰逊、罗兰·格里菲斯在斯坦福大学的一些实验室。

Nolan Williams.

诺兰·威廉姆斯。

Laboratories studying the effects of psychedelics in human beings, so not animal models, in terms of their clinical application for the treatment of depression, anorexia.

实验室研究迷幻药对人类（而不是动物模型）的影响，以及其治疗抑郁症和厌食症的临床应用。

I now know fibromyalgia, trauma.

我现在知道纤维肌痛和创伤。

Let's lump MDMA in there as well, assuming that it all works in equivalent way at the level of where the legislature is taking things.

让我们把摇头丸也归入其中，假设它在立法机关处理问题的层面上以同等的方式发挥作用。

OK.

好的。

So labs using government money, philanthropy, et cetera.

因此实验室使用政府资金、慈善事业等等。

Then there are the therapists out there that are accessing what we believe are clean sources of MDMA.

然后，治疗师正在获取我们认为是 MDMA 的清洁来源。

Psilocybin, LSD to do this.

裸盖菇素、LSD 可以做到这一点。

They are doing it illegally.

他们这样做是非法的。

This is in the US or other Western European countries, because, obviously, it's going to differ by country.

这是在美国或其他西欧国家，因为显然，不同国家的情况会有所不同。

Who are administering these things on the basis of what they're reading in these studies that you all are publishing.

谁根据你们正在发表的这些研究中所读到的内容来管理这些事情。

But also expanding on and experimenting hippie flips and combination drugs and ketamine and et cetera.

但也扩大和试验嬉皮士翻转和组合药物和氯胺酮等等。

But let's leave ketamine out right now because it's legal.

但现在让我们把氯胺酮排除在外，因为它是合法的。

But there's that.

但就是这样。

Then there's the-- I don't want to say recreational/open market, black market.

然后是——我不想说娱乐/公开市场、黑市。

And here I want to raise a flag to the fact that Dr. Peter Attia did a terrific podcast on this recently in his own podcast, The Drive.

在这里，我想指出这样一个事实：Peter Attia 博士最近在他自己的播客《The Drive》中就此做了一个非常棒的播客。

The fact that fentanyl-- lacing with fentanyl is now showing up in MDMA and psychedelics that are purchased on the street.

事实上，芬太尼——含有芬太尼的物质现在出现在街头购买的摇头丸和迷幻药中。

So serious caution to those getting it from uncertain sources.

对于那些从不确定来源获取信息的人来说，请务必小心谨慎。

And then you've got pharma.

然后你就有了制药。

And then as an umbrella for all of this, you've got the FDA and law enforcement agencies, which currently say, this stuff is illegal unless it's being used in a clinical trial.

然后，作为所有这一切的保护伞，美国食品和药物管理局和执法机构目前表示，这些东西是非法的，除非它用于临床试验。

Selling it or possessing it can get you charged with a crime ranging from-- I don't want to say because I don't know.

出售或拥有它可能会让您被指控犯有各种罪行，我不想说，因为我不知道。

But up to felonies.

但直至重罪。

Right years in prison.

正确的几年监禁。

So can't take it through airports, don't get caught with it, don't buy it, don't sell it kind of thing.

所以不能带它通过机场，不要被抓住，不要买它，不要卖它之类的东西。

So where are we going from that picture of the silos?

那么我们从那张筒仓图片中要去哪里呢？

I know things are in clinical trials now.

我知道现在正在进行临床试验。

Most people, including myself, are not familiar with how the different phases relate to the proximity to legality.

大多数人，包括我自己，都不熟悉不同阶段与接近合法性之间的关系。

Could you just give us the landscape and touch on how long you think it will be before the people that come through your trials could then go get a prescription for psilocybin or potentially buy it without the risk from a reliable source, one would hope, but without the risk of getting thrown in jail.

您能否给我们介绍一下情况，并谈谈您认为经过您的试验的人需要多长时间才能获得裸盖菇素处方，或者可能在没有来自可靠来源的风险（人们希望）的情况下购买它，但又没有被投入监狱的风险。

I used to live in Oakland, California.

我以前住在加利福尼亚州奥克兰。

My understanding-- and please correct me if I'm wrong, folks.

我的理解——如果我错了，请纠正我，伙计们。

Don't trust this information and get in trouble.

不要相信这些信息，否则会遇到麻烦。

My understanding is that psilocybin is decriminalized in Oakland, but that's not the same as being legal.

我的理解是，裸盖菇素在奥克兰已合法化，但这并不等同于合法。

So what is going on out there?

那么外面发生了什么？

But let's see whether they get shut down.

但让我们看看它们是否会被关闭。

They probably will, I don't know.

他们可能会，我不知道。

But there's a church in Oakland sort of say that they're selling and it's part of religious rights.

但奥克兰有一家教堂声称他们正在出售，这是宗教权利的一部分。

They're using that church model as a loophole, the way that Native Americans can use peyote and they have a more genuine case, I think.

他们利用教堂模式作为漏洞，就像美洲原住民使用仙人掌一样，我认为他们有更真实的案例。

Because there is a history there.

因为那里有历史。

But they're trying to kind of piggyback on that.

但他们正试图利用这一点。

Anyway, that's close to where we are right now.

不管怎样，这已经接近我们现在所处的位置了。

But federally, which is really the major inflection point, is the FDA and the licensing of psychedelics as medicines to be legally prescribed across the country, across the US and beyond, that is close because the key phase-- so there are different phases of clinical trials, and the key one to know about is phase III.

但在联邦层面，这确实是一个主要的转折点，FDA 和迷幻剂作为药物的许可在全国范围内合法开出，在美国乃至其他地区，这已经很接近了，因为关键阶段 - 所以临床试验有不同的阶段，而要了解的关键是第三阶段。

Phase III trials are licensing trials.

第三阶段试验是许可试验。

If they're successful, and typically you have to do at least two successful ones, show the results to the regulators who are the FDA, the medicine regulators, and say, is this good enough now for you to give me a license so that I can sell and provide this medicine that we've demonstrated is a medicine.

如果他们成功了，通常你必须做至少两次成功的，向监管机构，即 FDA，药品监管机构，展示结果，并说，现在是否足够好，让你给我一个许可证，以便我可以销售和提供这种我们已经证明是药物的药物。

So that work has been done with MDMA therapy for post-traumatic stress disorder.

因此，这项工作已经通过 MDMA 治疗创伤后应激障碍完成。

MAPS have led that work and done two phase III trials.

MAPS 领导了这项工作并完成了两项 III 期试验。

I think they've already publicly announced that the second trial had results consistent with the first.

我想他们已经公开宣布第二次试验的结果与第一次试验一致。

We know the results of the first, because they're published and they were remarkably good.

我们知道第一个结果，因为它们已经发表并且非常好。

Something like 67% remission rates.

缓解率约为 67%。

Are people going to go to their psychiatrist to get MDMA?

人们会去看精神科医生以获得 MDMA 吗？

And who's going to be providing it?

谁将提供它？

Is it going to be some big major pharma?

它会是一些大型制药公司吗？

This seems like a serious set of issues.

这似乎是一系列严重的问题。

And you have to do this formal training in order to be a practitioner within the trials.

你必须接受正式的培训才能成为试验中的实践者。

But now, there's a question from the FDA whether that MAPS training can be the training that a clinician has to have to now be a provider.

但现在，FDA 提出疑问，MAPS 培训是否可以成为临床医生现在成为提供者所必须接受的培训。

And when I say rollout, it's like offering this as a service, essentially.

当我说推出时，本质上就像将其作为服务提供。

And so where would the referral come from?

那么推荐从哪里来呢？

That's a good question.

这是个好问题。

That I'm not 100% on the answer.

我并不是 100% 同意这个答案。

Whether it would have to come from a psychiatrist or whether someone's-- sort of general physician could do that referral.

是否必须来自精神科医生，或者是否某个普通医生可以进行转诊。

But they will be going to a provider who is licensed and certified and will have done some training.

但他们将去找一家获得许可和认证并接受过一些培训的提供商。

And there will be a consensus on what constitutes good enough training to provide.

对于什么才是足够好的培训，人们将会达成共识。

There will also be some stipulations on the basic underlying professionalism of the clinician who provides.

对于提供服务的临床医生的基本专业精神也会有一些规定。

So I imagine, they'll have to be a mental health professional.

所以我想，他们必须是心理健康专家。

I don't think they would have to necessarily be a psychiatrist, they could be, I think, a clinical psychologist.

我认为他们不一定是精神病学家，我认为他们可以是临床心理学家。

For all the dosings, I think without question, there would have to be a physician present or at least within ready access in case of an emergency.

对于所有的剂量，我认为毫无疑问，必须有一名医生在场，或者至少在紧急情况下可以随时到达。

So that's happening with Compass right now.

Compass 正在发生这种情况。

It's psilocybin therapy for treatment-resistant depression.

这是针对难治性抑郁症的裸盖菇素疗法。

Those trials have just started and I think the earliest estimate that I heard in a journalistic article was because I don't think Compass would say or they wouldn't say publicly something like 2026.

这些试验才刚刚开始，我认为我在一篇新闻文章中听到的最早的估计是因为我认为 Compass 不会说或者他们不会公开说像 2026 年这样的事情。

The first one in 2019, it's 2023 now, and I don't know how many there are.

第一个是2019年的，现在都2023年了，不知道还有多少个。

But so much has happened in such a small space of time.

但在这么短的时间内发生了这么多事情。

Yes.

是的。

But all these different indications I've been able to tell you about-- anorexia and fibromyalgia syndrome.

但我已经能够告诉你所有这些不同的迹象——厌食症和纤维肌痛综合症。

Trying to do a trial with a colleague of mine at UCSF in methamphetamine use disorder.

试图与我在加州大学旧金山分校的一位同事一起进行甲基苯丙胺使用障碍的试验。

He's got a trial going on in Parkinson's disease and chronic lower back pain and bipolar disorder.

他正在进行一项治疗帕金森病、慢性腰痛和双相情感障碍的试验。

I mean, there's so much going on.

我的意思是，发生了很多事情。

OCD.

强迫症。

Almost the full gamut of psychiatric disorders.

几乎涵盖了所有的精神疾病。

Not schizophrenia, to my knowledge, are being looked at.

据我所知，目前正在研究的并不是精神分裂症。

So there's so much groundswell of activity.

所以有如此多的活动。

And I think these small investigator-led studies, typically, they're small because trials are expensive, are going to be reporting positive results.

我认为这些由研究者主导的小型研究通常规模较小，因为试验费用昂贵，但将会报告积极的结果。

I know what we're seeing.

我知道我们看到了什么。

And it will be four-- let's see now, at least four trials all with really positive results in very difficult-to-treat disorders.

这将是四项——让我们现在看看，至少有四项试验都在非常难以治疗的疾病中取得了真正积极的结果。

And that's just us.

这就是我们。

And I know there's so much elsewhere.

我知道其他地方还有很多东西。

Addiction disorders as well.

成瘾障碍也是如此。

Mike Johnson's work, obviously, Michael Bogenschutz.

显然是迈克·约翰逊的作品，迈克尔·博根舒茨。

So all this compelling groundswell, it's really something.

因此，所有这些引人注目的风潮确实很重要。

And yet the system to really make a big breakthrough in terms of licensing is, of course, slow.

然而，真正在许可方面取得重大突破的系统当然是缓慢的。

And that can frustrate people, but it has to be done properly.

这可能会让人们感到沮丧，但必须采取正确的做法。

I mean, there were some years where it was considered counterculture woo magic carpet weirdo stuff by Western science.

我的意思是，有一些年它被西方科学认为是反主流文化的魔毯怪异东西。

But now, I mean, there are-- probably tens of thousands is not an overstatement of quality studies exploring how meditation can provide advantages for the mind and even for mental health.

但现在，我的意思是，可能有数以万计的高质量研究探索冥想如何为思想甚至心理健康提供优势，这并不夸张。

And psychedelics are now catching up, but they used to be close cousins in the cultural framework.

致幻剂现在正在迎头赶上，但它们曾经在文化框架中是近亲。

But the problem was, I think, psychedelics were viewed as making people crazy.

但问题是，我认为迷幻药被认为会让人发疯。

And university professors lost their jobs for having discussions like the one that you and I are having right now.

大学教授因为进行像你我现在正在进行的讨论而失去了工作。

And some people went to jail, but mostly people either left academic institutions or lost their jobs, whereas now these are some of-- these studies of the sort that you are doing and that are taking place at Stanford and Hopkins and elsewhere are some of the greatest magnetic pull for philanthropy for universities.

有些人进了监狱，但大多数人要么离开了学术机构，要么失业了，而现在，你正在做的、斯坦福大学、霍普金斯大学和其他地方正在进行的这类研究，是对大学慈善事业最具吸引力的一部分。

Donors are very interested in supporting these sorts of studies, because they and their family members and people they know suffer from psychiatric illness for which the current big pharma approaches simply have not worked.

捐助者对支持此类研究非常感兴趣，因为他们和他们的家人以及他们认识的人患有精神疾病，而目前的大型制药公司的方法根本不起作用。

So it's interesting to me that what once was seen as poison is now being viewed as a potential therapeutic.

所以对我来说有趣的是，曾经被视为毒药的东西现在被视为一种潜在的治疗方法。

It's not just interesting, hopefully, it speaks to the evolution of the human species.

希望这不仅仅是有趣，它还讲述了人类物种的进化。

People seem to be coming more open-minded about becoming more open-minded.

人们的思想似乎变得更加开放。

Gene therapy broadly defined, and now we're in the age of potential directed gene therapy using CRISPR and things of that sort, which makes some people cringe and other people very excited.

基因治疗的定义很广泛，现在我们正处于使用 CRISPR 等潜在定向基因治疗的时代，这让一些人感到畏缩，另一些人则非常兴奋。

If you have Huntington's in your family, CRISPR is like the most exciting technology ever, because you could potentially eliminate it from your family line going forward, of course.

如果你的家族中有亨廷顿舞蹈症患者，那么 CRISPR 就是有史以来最令人兴奋的技术，因为当然，你有可能在未来将其从你的家族中消除。

Yeah.

是的。

And it won't be an easy road forwards.

这不会是一条轻松的前进之路。

But let's hope-- we've got to hope that it succeeds, because current treatments-- people talk about the mental health crisis and to your point earlier about anorexia rates, it's not always actually the case when you look at the epidemiology.

但让我们希望——我们必须希望它能成功，因为目前的治疗——人们谈论心理健康危机，就你之前关于厌食症发病率的观点而言，当你观察流行病学时，实际情况并不总是如此。

When you look at the data that you see a big inflection in diagnoses or cases of psychiatric illness.

当你查看数据时，你会发现精神疾病的诊断或病例发生了很大的变化。

I would say, it's more-- the treatments haven't moved.

我想说，更重要的是——治疗方法没有改变。

They haven't really progressed.

他们还没有真正进步。

They haven't got any better since the 1950s more or less.

自 20 世纪 50 年代以来，他们或多或少没有取得任何进步。

And new drugs have been more of the same.

新药也基本相同。

So there haven't been any paradigm shifts.

所以没有任何范式转变。

And that's why I get a little impassioned when I talk about psychedelic therapy and that point that this is something different.

这就是为什么当我谈论迷幻疗法时我会变得有点热情，并且认为这是不同的。

It's not a drug every day.

这不是每天吃药。

That system, it's not cutting it.

那个系统，它没有削减它。

Do we really want to keep on with that system?

我们真的想继续使用这个系统吗？

Sure.

当然。

Not everyone will want to trip.

不是每个人都愿意旅行。

And that will terrify some people so much that they'll just want to be on their Lexapro or a non-psychedelic, psychedelic, or whatever.

这会让一些人非常害怕，以至于他们只想使用 Lexapro 或非迷幻剂、迷幻剂或其他任何药物。

And of course, it should be allowed to have those options.

当然，应该允许它有这些选择。

Of course.

当然。

And the more options, the better.

并且选择越多越好。

But I think there is great value in really understanding what psychedelic therapy is.

但我认为真正理解迷幻疗法是什么非常有价值。

And I think when you do, you realize that it is a major paradigm challenge on many levels.

我认为当你这样做时，你会意识到这在很多层面上都是一个重大的范式挑战。

And the fact that it's different might be its greatest appeal at the moment, I think.

我认为，它的不同之处可能是目前它最大的吸引力。

So I want to extend a voice of gratitude for that and for the work that you're doing.

因此，我想对此以及您所做的工作表示感谢。

I mean, I've been outside of this field, but as a neuroscientist, I've been paying careful attention to it really for the last five, seven years or so.

我的意思是，我一直在这个领域之外，但作为一名神经科学家，我在过去五、七年左右的时间里一直在认真关注它。

And it's abundantly clear that it is a small group of individuals who are really thinking in terms of how the system works now and what needs to be done in order to change the system for the better like yourself that are really the driving force behind this new movement or paradigm shift.

很明显，一小群像你一样真正思考系统现在如何运作以及需要做什么才能使系统变得更好的人才是这一新运动或范式转变背后的真正驱动力。

That without question, is going to lead to improvements in mental health and physical health outcomes.

毫无疑问，这将改善心理健康和身体健康结果。

So I just want to say thank you for that.

所以我只想对此表示感谢。

Also thank you so much for joining us today to share this immense knowledge set about the history of psychedelics.

也非常感谢您今天加入我们，分享有关迷幻药历史的丰富知识。

What they are, what they aren't.

它们是什么，它们不是什么。

Their clinical applications as seen in your laboratory and other laboratories.

它们的临床应用如您的实验室和其他实验室所见。

I'm sure people already notice this, but you're incredibly generous in terms of attribution and also in your caution about explaining how some of the results in particular, on anorexia, fibromyalgia, are perhaps preliminary but very exciting.

我相信人们已经注意到了这一点，但您在归因方面非常慷慨，并且在解释某些结果（特别是关于厌食症、纤维肌痛）的谨慎性时，可能是初步的，但非常令人兴奋。

They're not published yet, anyway.

无论如何，它们还没有发布。

We wouldn't call them preliminary.

我们不会称它们为初步的。

And also for touching on mechanism.

也用于触及机制。

That is not just about people feel better, but pointed to some potential underlying mechanisms in terms of connectivity changes and on and on.

这不仅仅是让人们感觉更好，还指出了连接变化等方面的一些潜在的潜在机制。

So thank you so much for your time today.

非常感谢您今天抽出时间。

Thank you for the work that you're doing.

感谢您所做的工作。

And thank you for the work that is sure to continue.

感谢你们所做的工作，这一工作肯定会继续下去。

We will provide links to studies in your laboratory, links to your laboratory so people can learn more and support in the ways that they deem appropriate for them.

我们将提供您实验室研究的链接，以便人们可以了解更多信息并以他们认为适合自己的方式提供支持。

But just thank you, thank you, thank you.

但只是谢谢你，谢谢你，谢谢你。

Such important work you're doing, Robin.

你正在做如此重要的工作，罗宾。

In addition, please see the links to his Twitter account and other social media accounts also in the show note captions.

此外，请在节目注释标题中查看他的 Twitter 帐户和其他社交媒体帐户的链接。

Also in the show note captions you'll find a link to Dr. Carhart-Harris's Twitter account where he regularly posts about new advances in the field of psychedelic science.

此外，在节目说明文字中，您还可以找到卡哈特-哈里斯博士的 Twitter 帐户的链接，他经常在其中发布有关迷幻科学领域的新进展。

If you're learning from and/or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel.

如果您正在学习和/或喜欢此播客，请订阅我们的 YouTube 频道。

That's a terrific zero cost way to support us.

这是支持我们的绝佳零成本方式。

In addition, please subscribe to the podcast on both Spotify and Apple.

此外，请在 Spotify 和 Apple 上订阅该播客。

And on both Spotify and Apple, you can also leave us up to a five-star review.

在 Spotify 和 Apple 上，您还可以给我们留下五星级的评价。

Please also check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode.

另请查看今天节目开头和整个节目中提到的赞助商。

That's the best way to support this podcast.

这是支持这个播客的最佳方式。

If you have questions for me or comments about the podcast or suggestions about guests you'd like me to include on the Huberman Lab podcast, please put those in the comment section on YouTube.

如果您对我有疑问或对播客有意见，或者对您希望我在 Huberman Lab 播客中加入的嘉宾提出建议，请将这些内容放入 YouTube 的评论部分。

I do read all the comments.

我确实阅读了所有评论。

Not so much on today's episode, but on many previous episodes of the Huberman Lab podcast, we discuss supplements.

今天的节目不多，但在 Huberman 实验室播客的许多以前的节目中，我们讨论了补充剂。

While supplements aren't necessary for everybody, many people derive tremendous benefit from them for things like improving sleep, hormone support, as well as focus.

虽然补充剂并不是每个人都需要的，但许多人从它们中获得了巨大的益处，例如改善睡眠、激素支持以及注意力集中。

The Huberman Lab podcast is proud to have partnered with Momentous Supplements.

Huberman Lab 播客很荣幸与 Momentous Supplements 合作。

If you'd like to see the supplements discussed on the Huberman Lab podcast, you can go to livemomentous, spelled O-U-S.

如果您想查看 Huberman Lab 播客上讨论的补充剂，您可以访问 livemomentous，拼写为 O-U-S。

So it's livemomentous.com/huberman.

所以它是 livemomentous.com/huberman。

If you're not already following me on social media, I am hubermanlab on all platforms.

如果您还没有在社交媒体上关注我，我是所有平台上的 hubermanlab。

So that's Facebook, LinkedIn, Twitter, and Instagram.

这就是 Facebook、LinkedIn、Twitter 和 Instagram。

And on all those platforms, I post about science and science-related tools, some of which overlaps with the content of the Huberman Lab podcast, but much of which is distinct from the content on the Huberman Lab podcast.

在所有这些平台上，我发布了有关科学和科学相关工具的内容，其中一些与胡伯曼实验室播客的内容重叠，但其中大部分与胡伯曼实验室播客的内容不同。

So again, it's hubermanlab on all social media platforms.

再说一遍，所有社交媒体平台上都是 hubermanlab。

If you haven't already subscribed to our Neural Network newsletter, the Neural Network newsletter is a monthly newsletter in which we distill down the essential points of particular podcasts and we list out toolkits such as toolkits for sleep, toolkits for neuroplasticity, toolkits for optimizing dopamine, and on and on, all of which is available at zero cost.

如果您还没有订阅我们的神经网络时事通讯，神经网络时事通讯是一份月度时事通讯，我们在其中提炼出特定播客的要点，并列出了诸如睡眠工具包、神经可塑性工具包、优化多巴胺工具包等工具包，所有这些都可以零成本获得。

You simply go to hubermanlab.com, go to the menu, scroll down to newsletter, and supply your email.

您只需访问 hubermanlab.com，进入菜单，向下滚动到时事通讯，然后提供您的电子邮件即可。

And we do not share your email with anybody.

我们不会与任何人分享您的电子邮件。

Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Robin Carhart-Harris.

再次感谢您参加今天与罗宾·卡哈特-哈里斯博士的讨论。

And last but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.

最后但并非最不重要的一点是，感谢您对科学的兴趣。