Dr. Robert Sapolsky: Science of Stress, Testosterone & Free Will
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.
欢迎来到休伯曼实验室播客，我们在这里讨论科学和基于科学的日常生活工具。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm Andrew Huberman and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.
我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。
Today, I have the pleasure of introducing Dr. Robert Sapolsky.
今天，我很高兴向大家介绍罗伯特·萨波尔斯基博士。
Dr. Sapolsky is a professor of biology and neurosurgery at Stanford University.
萨波尔斯基博士是斯坦福大学生物学和神经外科教授。
His laboratory has worked on a large variety of topics, including stress, hormones, including testosterone and estrogen.
他的实验室研究了各种各样的主题，包括压力、激素，包括睾酮和雌激素。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
How the different members of a given species interact according to factors like hormones, hierarchy within primate troops, and how things like stress, reproduction and competition impact behavior.
特定物种的不同成员如何根据激素、灵长类动物群体中的等级制度等因素相互作用，以及压力、繁殖和竞争等因素如何影响行为。
One of the things that makes Dr. Sapolsky's work so unique is that it combines elements from primatology, including field studies, with human behavior.
萨波尔斯基博士的工作如此独特的原因之一是它将灵长类动物学的元素（包括实地研究）与人类行为结合起来。
In essence, trying to unveil how humans, as Old World primates, are controlled by different elements of our biology as well as our psychology.
本质上，试图揭示人类作为旧大陆灵长类动物是如何受到生物学和心理学的不同元素控制的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Dr. Sapolsky is also a prolific author of popular books such as "Why Zebras Don't Get Ulcers," "The Trouble with Testosterone" and "Behave: The Biology of Humans at Our Best and Worst." During the course of our discussion today, Robert also revealed to me that he is close to completing a new book entitled "Determined: The Science of Life Without Free Will," and indeed we discuss "The Science of Life Without Free Will" during this episode.
萨波尔斯基博士还是一位多产的畅销书作者，如《为什么斑马不会得溃疡》、《睾丸激素的麻烦》和《行为：人类最好和最坏的生物学》。在我们今天的讨论过程中，罗伯特还向我透露，他即将完成一本题为《确定：没有自由意志的生命科学》的新书，事实上，我们在这一集中讨论了《没有自由意志的生命科学》。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We also discuss stress and how best to control stress, and how stress controls us at both conscious and subconscious levels.
我们还讨论压力以及如何最好地控制压力，以及压力如何在意识和潜意识层面上控制我们。
We talk about testosterone and estrogen and hormone replacement therapy and how those impact our mind, our psychology and our interactions with others.
我们谈论睾酮、雌激素和激素替代疗法，以及它们如何影响我们的思想、心理以及与他人的互动。
As with any discussion with Dr. Sapolsky, we learn about scientific mechanisms that make us who we are.
正如与萨波尔斯基博士的任何讨论一样，我们了解了造就我们的科学机制。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Today, we also discuss tools and how we can leverage those scientific mechanisms in order to be better versions of ourselves.
今天，我们还讨论了工具以及如何利用这些科学机制来成为更好的自己。
I should mention that unlike most guest interviews on the Huberman Lab podcast, this one had to be carried out remotely due to various constraints.
我应该提到的是，与休伯曼实验室播客上的大多数客座采访不同，由于各种限制，这次采访必须远程进行。
You may hear the occasional audio artifact.
您可能会偶尔听到音频伪影。
Please excuse that; we felt that the value of a conversation with Dr. Sapolsky was well worth those minor, minor glitches.
请原谅；我们认为与萨波尔斯基博士交谈的价值非常值得那些微小的小故障。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Indeed, the information that he delivers us is tremendously valuable, interesting and in many cases actionable as well.
事实上，他向我们提供的信息非常有价值、有趣，而且在许多情况下也是可行的。
Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.
在开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。
It is however part of my desire and effort to bring zero-cost-to-consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public.
然而，我的愿望和努力的一部分是将有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本消费者信息带给公众。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In keeping with that theme, I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast.
为了与这个主题保持一致，我要感谢今天播客的赞助商。
Now without further ado, my conversation with Dr. Robert Sapolsky.
现在，话不多说，开始我与罗伯特·萨波尔斯基博士的对话。
Great.
伟大的。
Well, thank you so much, Robert, for joining us today.
罗伯特，非常感谢您今天加入我们。
I've been looking forward to this for a very long time.
我对此期待已久。
I appreciate it.
我很感激。
Robert Sapolsky:
罗伯特·萨波尔斯基：
Well, glad to be here.
嗯，很高兴来到这里。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There an enormous range of topics that we could drill into, but just to start off, I want to return to a topic that is near and dear to your heart, which is stress.
我们可以深入探讨的主题范围很广，但首先，我想回到您最关心的主题，那就是压力。
One of the questions that I get most commonly is what is the difference between short and long-term stress in terms of their benefits and their drawbacks?
我最常遇到的问题之一是短期压力和长期压力的利弊有何区别？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The reason I say benefits is that obviously stress and the stress response can keep us alive, but stress, of course, can also sharpen our mental acuity, and things of that sort.
我说好处的原因是，显然压力和压力反应可以让我们活下去，但压力当然也可以提高我们的思维敏锐度，等等。
So how should we conceptualize stress, and how should we conceptualize stress in the short term and in the long term?
那么我们应该如何概念化压力，以及我们应该如何概念化短期和长期的压力？
Robert Sapolsky:
罗伯特·萨波尔斯基：
Well, basically two graphs that one would draw.
嗯，基本上是一个人会画的两张图。
The first one is just all sorts of beneficial effects of stress short term, and then once we get into chronicity is just downhill from there.
第一个是短期内压力的各种有益影响，然后一旦我们进入长期状态，就会从那里开始走下坡路。
Short term because it saves you from the predator.
短期的，因为它可以让你免受掠食者的侵害。
Short term because you're giving a presentation, and you think more clearly, or your focus is better.
短期是因为你在做演讲，你的想法更清晰，或者你的注意力更集中。
All sorts of aspects of that and what then winds up being an argument is how long does it take to go from short term to long term?
各种各样的方面，最终成为一个争论的是，从短期到长期需要多长时间？
Robert Sapolsky:
罗伯特·萨波尔斯基：
That's somewhat arbitrary, but the sorts of chronic stressors that most people deal with are just undeniably in the chronic range, like having spent the last 20 years — daily traffic jams, or abusive boss or some such thing.
这有点武断，但不可否认的是，大多数人面临的慢性压力源都属于慢性压力源，比如过去 20 年的生活——每天都堵车，或者老板虐待，或者诸如此类的事情。
The other curve that's perpendicular to this is dealing with the fact that sometimes stress is a great thing.
与此垂直的另一条曲线涉及这样一个事实：有时压力是一件好事。
Our goal is not to cure people of stress, because if it's the right kind, we love it.
我们的目标不是治愈人们的压力，因为如果是正确的类型，我们就会喜欢它。
We pay good money to be stressed that way by a scary movie or a rollercoaster ride.
我们花很多钱就是为了通过看恐怖电影或坐过山车来承受这种压力。
Robert Sapolsky:
罗伯特·萨波尔斯基：
What you wind up seeing is when it's the right amount of stress, it's what we call stimulation.
你最终会看到，当压力适当时，这就是我们所说的刺激。
The basic curve there is: here's an optimal level of stimulation, and too little and function goes down with what we would call boredom, and too much and function goes down with what we would call stress.
基本曲线是：这是最佳的刺激水平，刺激太少，功能就会下降，我们称之为无聊，太多，功能就会下降，我们称之为压力。
The optimum is what all of us aim for.
最佳是我们所有人的目标。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In terms of the benefits of stress in the short term, one thing that's really striking to me is how physiologically, the stress response looks so much like the excitement response to a positive event.
就压力在短期内的好处而言，真正令我震惊的一件事是，从生理上讲，压力反应看起来非常像对积极事件的兴奋反应。
We can speculate that the fundamental difference between short-term stress and short-term excitement is some neuromodulator like dopamine, or something like that.
我们可以推测，短期压力和短期兴奋之间的根本区别在于某种神经调节剂，如多巴胺或类似的东西。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is there anything else that we know about the biology that reveals to us what really creates this thing we call valence, that an experience can be terrible or feel awful, or it can feel wonderful, exhilarating, depending on this somewhat subjective feature we call valence?
我们对生物学还有什么了解，可以向我们揭示什么真正创造了我们称之为效价的东西，一种体验可以是可怕的或感觉糟糕的，或者它可以感觉美妙、令人兴奋的，这取决于我们称之为效价的这种有点主观的特征？
Do we know what the valence is or where it resides?
我们知道化合价是什么或者它位于哪里吗？
Robert Sapolsky:
罗伯特·萨波尔斯基：
On a really mechanical level, if you're in a circumstance that is requiring that your heart races, and your breathing is fast, and you're using your muscles and some such thing, you're going to be having roughly the same brain-activation profile whether this is for something wonderful or something terrible.
在真正的机械层面上，如果你处于一种需要心跳加速、呼吸急促的环境中，并且你正在使用你的肌肉和类似的东西，那么无论是为了美好的事情还是为了可怕的事情，你都会有大致相同的大脑激活情况。
With the one exception being that if the amygdala is part of the activation, this is something that's going to be counting as adverse.
唯一的例外是，如果杏仁核是激活的一部分，那么这将被视为不利的。
Robert Sapolsky:
罗伯特·萨波尔斯基：
Whether that's the circumstance, an adverse circumstance recruiting the amygdala into, it and how much the amygdala being involved biases you towards interpreting it as even more awful.
无论是这种情况，还是一种招募杏仁核的不利环境，以及杏仁核参与的程度，都会让你倾向于将其解读为更可怕的情况。
The amygdala in some ways is the checkpoint as to whether we're talking about excitement or terror.
在某些方面，杏仁核是我们谈论兴奋还是恐惧的检查站。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Let's use the amygdala as a transition point to another topic that you've spent many years working on and thinking about, which is testosterone and other sex steroid hormones.
让我们以杏仁核为过渡点，转到您多年来研究和思考的另一个主题，即睾酮和其他性类固醇激素。
I heard you say once before that among all the brain areas that bind testosterone, where testosterone can park and create effects, that the amygdala is among the most chockablock full of these parking spots, these receptors.
我以前听你说过，在所有与睾酮结合的大脑区域中，睾酮可以停泊并产生作用，杏仁核是最堵塞的，充满了这些停车位，这些受体。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I realize there's a lot here, but how should we think about the role of testosterone in the amygdala, given that the engagement of the amygdala is fundamental in this transition point between an exhilarating, positive response and a negative stressful response?
我知道这里有很多内容，但考虑到杏仁核的参与对于令人兴奋的积极反应和消极压力反应之间的过渡点至关重要，我们应该如何思考睾酮在杏仁核中的作用？
Maybe just broadly, how should we think about testosterone and its effects on the brain?
也许从广义上讲，我们应该如何看待睾酮及其对大脑的影响？
Robert Sapolsky:
罗伯特·萨波尔斯基：
Pertinent to the transition from whether this is a stressor that's evoking fear or evoking aggression in terms of that continuum also, because the amygdala is in the center of all four points on those axes.
就该连续体而言，这也与从是否引发恐惧或引发攻击性的压力源的转变有关，因为杏仁核位于这些轴上所有四个点的中心。
Basically, almost everybody out there has a completely wrong idea as to what testosterone does, which is testosterone makes you aggressive because males, virtually every species out there have more testosterone and are more aggressive.
基本上，几乎每个人对于睾酮的作用都有一个完全错误的想法，即睾酮使你具有攻击性，因为雄性，几乎每个物种都有更多的睾酮并且更具攻击性。
Robert Sapolsky:
罗伯特·萨波尔斯基：
Seasonal maters have testosterone surging at the time of year they're punching it out over territory.
季节性女性在一年中的这个时候睾丸激素会激增，她们会在领土上大肆挥霍。
You take testosterone out of the picture, you castrate any mammal out there, including us, and levels of aggression will go down.
如果你把睾丸激素排除在外，你就阉割了包括我们在内的任何哺乳动物，攻击性的程度就会下降。
The easy thing then tends to conclude that testosterone causes aggression.
简单的事情往往会得出结论：睾丸激素会导致攻击性。
The reality is testosterone does no such thing.
事实是睾丸激素没有这样的作用。
It doesn't cause aggression.
它不会引起攻击性。
You can see this both behaviorally and in the amygdala.
你可以在行为上和杏仁核中看到这一点。
Robert Sapolsky:
罗伯特·萨波尔斯基：
What does testosterone do?
睾酮有什么作用？
It lowers the threshold for the things that would normally provoke you into being aggressive so that it happens more easily.
它降低了通常会激起你攻击性的事情的门槛，使其更容易发生。
It makes systems that are already turned on turn on louder rather than turning on aggressive music or some such thing.
它使已经打开的系统打开声音更大，而不是打开激进的音乐或类似的东西。
What does that look like behaviorally?
这在行为上看起来像什么？
You take five male monkeys, put them together, they form a dominance hierarchy.
你把五只雄性猴子放在一起，它们就形成了一个统治等级。
Number one is great, number five is miserable.
第一是伟大的，第五是悲惨的。
Number three is right in between.
第三个是介于两者之间。
Robert Sapolsky:
罗伯特·萨波尔斯基：
Now, take number three and shoot the guy up with tons of testosterone and he's going to be involved in more fights.
现在，拿第三号，用大量的睾丸激素射杀那个家伙，他将参与更多的战斗。
Aha, testosterone uniformly causes aggression, but you look closely and there's a pattern to it.
啊哈，睾丸激素都会引起攻击性，但你仔细观察就会发现其中有规律。
Is number three now challenging numbers two and one for their place in the hierarchy?
第三名现在是否正在挑战第二名和第一名的地位？
Absolutely not.
绝对不是。
He is brown-nosing them exactly as much as he used to.
他和以前一样对他们拍马屁。
What's going on is he's just a miserable terror to poor number four and five.
现在的情况是，对于可怜的四号和五号来说，他只是一个可怕的恐怖分子。
Robert Sapolsky:
罗伯特·萨波尔斯基：
In that case, what testosterone's doing is amplifying the pre-existing patterns of aggression.
在这种情况下，睾丸激素的作用就是放大预先存在的攻击性模式。
Amplifying the social learning that's already gone into it.
扩大已经存在的社会学习。
Now, on the more reductive levels, how does that translate into the amygdala?
现在，在更还原的层面上，这如何转化为杏仁核？
Does testosterone make amygdala neurons have action potentials?
睾酮是否使杏仁核神经元具有动作电位？
Does it cause those neurons to suddenly speak about fear and aggression spontaneously?
它是否会导致这些神经元突然自发地谈论恐惧和攻击性？
Absolutely not.
绝对不是。
What they do is if the amygdala is already being stimulated, it increases the rate of neural firing.
他们所做的是，如果杏仁核已经受到刺激，就会增加神经放电的速率。
Robert Sapolsky:
罗伯特·萨波尔斯基：
For what it's worth, it shortens after hyperpolarization.
无论如何，它在超极化后会缩短。
The theme there exactly is it's not creating aggression, it's just upping the volume of whatever aggression is already there.
确切的主题是，它不会制造攻击性，它只是增加已经存在的攻击性的强度。
Once you factor that in, it's impossible to say anything about what testosterone does outside the context of what testosterone-related behaviors, how they get treated in your social setting.
一旦你考虑到这一点，就不可能在与睾酮相关的行为以及它们在你的社交环境中如何受到对待的背景下谈论睾酮的作用。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In terms of status and the relationship between individuals, either nonhuman primates or humans, can we say that testosterone and levels of testosterone, or I should say, can we say that relative levels of testosterone between individuals is correlated to status within the hierarchy?
就地位和个体之间的关系而言，无论是非人类灵长类动物还是人类，我们是否可以说睾酮和睾酮水平，或者我应该说，我们是否可以说个体之间睾酮的相对水平与等级制度内的地位相关？
Robert Sapolsky:
罗伯特·萨波尔斯基：
Yes, but in a way that winds up being totally uninteresting.
是的，但在某种程度上最终变得完全无趣。
If you go back, I don't know, whatever number of decades to endocrinology texts and there were two totally reliable findings in there.
如果你回去，我不知道，无论内分泌学文本有多少年，那里都有两个完全可靠的发现。
Let's see, I have a dog in here that's Andrew Huberman:
让我们看看，我这里有一只狗，它是 Andrew Huberman：
Good.
很好。
Well, we like dogs at the Huberman Lab podcast.
嗯，我们喜欢休伯曼实验室播客中的狗。
Robert Sapolsky:
罗伯特·萨波尔斯基：
He's jingling a bit.
他有点叮当作响。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They are welcome.
他们受到欢迎。
They are absolutely welcome.
他们绝对受欢迎。
Robert Sapolsky:
罗伯特·萨波尔斯基：
There'd be two truisms, which is higher levels of testosterone predict higher levels of aggression in humans and other animals.
有两个不言而喻的事实：睾丸激素水平越高，人类和其他动物的攻击性就越高。
Higher levels of testosterone predict higher levels of sexual activity.
睾酮水平越高，性活动水平越高。
Whoa, testosterone causing both and the correlation is there.
哇，睾丸激素导致两者，并且存在相关性。
When you look closely, we've got cause and effect stuff.
当你仔细观察时，我们发现了因果关系。
Sexual behavior raises testosterone levels.
性行为会提高睾酮水平。
Aggression raises testosterone levels; your levels beforehand are barely predictive of what's going to happen.
攻击性会提高睾酮水平；你事先的水平几乎无法预测将要发生的事情。
It's a response rather than a cost.
这是一种回应，而不是一种成本。
Robert Sapolsky:
罗伯特·萨波尔斯基：
When you look at that though in terms of making sense of individual differences, they don't matter a whole lot.
当你从理解个体差异的角度来看这一点时，你会发现它们并不那么重要。
You can spend an entire career on the social circumstances that produce three and a half percent more testosterone in the circulation and expect to see all sorts of interesting implications, and that's not really the case.
你可以将整个职业生涯花在社会环境上，使循环中的睾丸激素增加百分之三半，并期望看到各种有趣的影响，但事实并非如此。
It's somewhat of a yes or no modulator of the much more subtle social stuff that's already there.
它在某种程度上是对已经存在的更微妙的社会事物的是或否调节器。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Very interesting.
非常有趣。
I think that there are a lot of misconceptions about human biology, but testosterone seems to be one area where, at least from what I can find on the Internet, there ...
我认为人们对人类生物学存在很多误解，但睾酮似乎是一个领域，至少从我在互联网上找到的信息来看，...
at the peak of misunderstanding.
处于误会的顶峰。
Maybe we could just ask a few more questions about testosterone and sexual behavior, because there's an interesting story there about castration versus noncastration, and the causality again.
也许我们可以再问一些关于睾丸激素和性行为的问题，因为那里有一个关于阉割与非阉割以及因果关系的有趣故事。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Before you address that, I just want to highlight something that you said that I think is so vital, which is that behaviors such as aggressive behaviors and sexual behaviors can actually increase testosterone.
在你解决这个问题之前，我想强调一下你所说的我认为非常重要的一点，那就是攻击性行为和性行为等行为实际上可以增加睾丸激素。
Did I hear that correctly?
我没听错吗？
The reverse is true, but not in a causal way.
反之亦然，但不是因果关系。
Is that right?
是这样吗？
Robert Sapolsky:
罗伯特·萨波尔斯基：
The opposite direction of the causality?
因果关系的反方向？
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
If I were to increase somebody's testosterone by 30%, male or female, doesn't matter that their sexual behavior may or may not change?
如果我将某人的睾丸激素增加 30%，无论男性还是女性，他们的性行为可能会或可能不会改变并不重要？
Robert Sapolsky:
罗伯特·萨波尔斯基：
Essentially zero effect at all.
基本上为零影响。
Your brain is not that sensitive to fluctuations and testosterone levels.
您的大脑对波动和睾酮水平并不那么敏感。
In terms of things like aggression, raising testosterone just is a great footnote if you have the right type of willing to die in the trenches devotion sort of thing, watching your favorite team play a sport will raise your testosterone levels as you sit there with the potato chips in your armchair.
就攻击性之类的事情而言，如果你有那种愿意死在战壕里的奉献精神，那么提高睾酮水平就是一个很好的脚注，当你坐在扶手椅上放着薯片时，观看你最喜欢的球队进行一项运动会提高你的睾酮水平。
It's not the physicality of aggression, it's the psychological framing of it.
这不是攻击的身体原因，而是攻击的心理框架。
Robert Sapolsky:
罗伯特·萨波尔斯基：
Testosterone is not causing that.
睾丸激素并不是造成这种情况的原因。
A great way to appreciate that is you had all these testosterone sexual behavior correlations, and you do the definitive endocrine intervention, which is you do a subtraction study, you remove the testes, and as I said before, levels of sexual behavior goes down.
理解这一点的一个好方法是，你拥有所有这些睾酮激素与性行为的相关性，并且你进行了明确的内分泌干预，即你进行了减法研究，你切除了睾丸，正如我之前所说，性行为水平下降了。
Good, we've just shown that testosterone is somehow causative.
很好，我们刚刚证明睾酮在某种程度上是起因的。
Critically they go down but not down to zero, whether you are a rat or a monkey or a human, whatever.
重要的是，无论你是老鼠、猴子还是人类，它们都会下降，但不会降到零。
Robert Sapolsky:
罗伯特·萨波尔斯基：
What predicts how much residual sexual behavior is there, how much sexual behavior there was before castration.
什么预示着还有多少残余性行为，阉割前有多少性行为。
What that's telling you is by then that's behavior that's being carried by social learning and context rather than by a hormone, exact same thing with aggression.
这告诉你的是，到那时，行为是由社会学习和环境而不是由激素来承载的，这与攻击性完全相同。
Drops after castration doesn't go to zero.
阉割后的下降不会变为零。
The more prior history of it the more it just keeps coasting along on its own even without testosterone.
它的历史越早，即使没有睾丸激素，它也能继续自行滑行。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Very interesting.
非常有趣。
Can we say that there's an exception in terms of the early organizing effects of hormones?
我们能说激素的早期组织作用有一个例外吗？
Like for instance, if a developing animal is deprived of testosterone or estrogen, or aromatized testosterone into estrogen, there's a whole story there as you know, but then I could imagine that the circuits of the brain that are responsible for initiating sexual behavior in the first place might not emerge, and therefore not be sensitive to testosterone later in life.
举例来说，如果发育中的动物被剥夺了睾酮或雌激素，或者芳香化睾酮变成雌激素，那么正如你所知，整个故事就在那里，但我可以想象，最初负责启动性行为的大脑回路可能不会出现，因此在以后的生活中对睾酮不敏感。
Is that right?
是这样吗？
Robert Sapolsky:
罗伯特·萨波尔斯基：
Exactly.
正是如此。
A great way of seeing that is this totally nutty biological factor, which is the second to fourth digit ratio in hands — totally obscure thing.
看待这一点的一个好方法是这个完全疯狂的生物因素，即手上的第二个数字与第四个数字的比例 - 完全晦涩难懂的东西。
The ratio of one to the other in some way reflects levels of testosterone-androgen exposure during fetal life.
一种与另一种的比率在某种程度上反映了胎儿时期睾酮-雄激素的暴露水平。
I can't remember which way it goes.
我不记得它走哪条路了。
It's minuscule and you need a thousand people in your sample size to be able to see anything, but you see it in other primates; it's already there in fetal sonograms, all of that.
它很小，你的样本量需要一千个人才能看到任何东西，但你可以在其他灵长类动物身上看到它；它已经存在于胎儿超声检查中，所有这些。
Robert Sapolsky:
罗伯特·萨波尔斯基：
That's a readout of subtle differences in prenatal exposure, and that winds up being a predictor of a whole range of stuff in adult behavior.
这是产前暴露的微妙差异的读数，最终成为成人行为的一系列因素的预测指标。
At the fetal end when you're still building everything, testosterone and the amount of it is making a huge difference.
在胎儿时期，当你还在构建一切时，睾酮及其含量会产生巨大的影响。
By the time you're an adult, it's just somewhat of an all-or-none signal.
当你成年时，这只是某种“全有或全无”的信号。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I have a confession, which is that I was a master's student at Berkeley in Mark Breedlove's arena.
我有一个坦白，那就是我是伯克利分校马克·布里德洛夫的硕士生。
I'm an author on that paper, although I'm deep within the author line, and you got the description of it exactly right, that it's the D2, the index finger to the ring finger ratio is more similar in females than it is in males; and males, the index finger tends to be shorter.
我是那篇论文的作者，尽管我对作者路线很深入，而且你对它的描述完全正确，那就是 D2，食指与无名指的比例在女性中比在男性中更相似；男性的食指往往较短。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
For people out there who are listening to this who are now freaking out or measuring, there's a proper way to measure this, which is eyeballing it doesn't work all the time unless at the extremes, and there's some more interesting stories there.
对于那些正在听这个、现在正在惊慌或正在测量的人来说，有一种正确的方法来测量它，那就是目测，除非在极端情况下，否则它并不总是有效，而且还有一些更有趣的故事。
It actually has been replicated no fewer than five times, Mark Breedlove tells me.
马克·布里德洛夫告诉我，它实际上已经被复制了不下五次。
Yes, in terms of these early organizing effects, those seem very robust in most studies.
是的，就这些早期组织效应而言，在大多数研究中这些效应似乎非常强大。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
These later effects are activation of neural circuits by hormones.
这些后来的影响是激素激活神经回路。
I'm absolutely fascinated by this.
我对此非常着迷。
I do have a couple other questions, which is we normally associate testosterone with males, but of course females make testosterone as well from the adrenals, and presumably elsewhere too.
我确实还有其他几个问题，那就是我们通常将睾酮与男性联系在一起，但当然女性也会从肾上腺产生睾酮，想必其他地方也可能产生睾酮。
I'm guessing if we looked hard enough we'd probably find that there were other sources of androgens in females.
我猜想，如果我们足够仔细地观察，我们可能会发现女性体内还有其他雄激素来源。
Can we say that these general contours of effects on aggression also pertain to females?
我们是否可以说这些对攻击性影响的一般轮廓也适用于女性？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I suppose I should ask in particular about female aggression, which does exist in many species female, male to aggression as well as maternal aggression, which is a robust aspect of our evolution, of course, that an angry mother animal of any kind protecting her young is truly dangerous, in the best sense of the word.
我想我应该特别问一下雌性的攻击性，这种攻击性确实存在于许多物种中，雌性、雄性的攻击性以及母性的攻击性，这是我们进化的一个强有力的方面，当然，从最好的意义上来说，任何类型的愤怒的母动物保护她的幼崽都是真正危险的。
Robert Sapolsky:
罗伯特·萨波尔斯基：
That type of post-parturition, period after birth, aggression is all about estrogen, progesterone, those sorts of things.
这种产后、产后的攻击行为都是与雌激素、黄体酮之类的东西有关。
Female aggression the rest of the time has testosterone as a major player at a much lower level on the average, one always has to say, but it's basically the same punchlines.
人们总是不得不说，在其余时间里，女性的攻击性使睾丸激素作为主要参与者，平均水平要低得多，但基本上都是相同的笑点。
In females, the lower levels of testosterone are essential for typical levels of aggression and sexual behavior.
在女性中，较低水平的睾酮对于典型的攻击性和性行为水平至关重要。
Robert Sapolsky:
罗伯特·萨波尔斯基：
Nonetheless, they're not causing it.
尽管如此，这并不是他们造成的。
It's not sensitive to small individual differences — same exact thing.
它对微小的个体差异不敏感——同样的事情。
You can get way overimpressed with the importance of androgens and females just as readily as in males.
您可能会对雄激素的重要性印象深刻，女性和男性一样容易。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In line with that, how should we conceptualize testosterone?
根据这一点，我们应该如何概念化睾酮？
I realize there isn't a single sentence that can capture a hormone in all its effects because hormones have so many different slow and fast effects on the brain, on other glands, on the very glands that produce them.
我意识到没有一个句子可以描述激素的所有影响，因为激素对大脑、其他腺体、产生激素的腺体有许多不同的缓慢和快速的影响。
As I've heard you talk about testosterone today and over the years, I start to get the impression that as the most misunderstood molecule in human health in the universe, it's clearly doing something very powerful.
当我今天和多年来听到你谈论睾酮时，我开始得到这样的印象：作为宇宙中人类健康中最容易被误解的分子，它显然正在做一些非常强大的事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's shifting the way that certain neural circuits work, adjusting the gain on the amygdala, as you described.
正如您所描述的，它正在改变某些神经回路的工作方式，调整杏仁核的增益。
Certainly, other things as well.
当然，还有其他事情。
Is there any truism about testosterone and its relationship to effort, or its relationship to resilience in a way, that maybe will help me and other people think about how to think about testosterone?
关于睾酮及其与努力的关系，或者它与韧性的关系，是否有任何不言而喻的道理，可能会帮助我和其他人思考如何看待睾酮？
Robert Sapolsky:
罗伯特·萨波尔斯基：
Maybe three separate answers to that.
也许对此有三个不同的答案。
The first one is I think it's a fair summary to think that when it comes to motivated strong behaviors, what testosterone does is make you more of whatever you already are in that domain.
第一个是，我认为这是一个公平的总结，认为当涉及到有动机的强烈行为时，睾丸激素的作用是让你更加了解你在该领域已经存在的东西。
Sexual arousal, libido, aggressiveness, spontaneous aggression, reactive aggression things of that sort — it's upping the volume of things that are already strongly there.
性唤起、性欲、攻击性、自发性攻击、反应性攻击之类的东西——它增加了已经强烈存在的东西的数量。
Robert Sapolsky:
罗伯特·萨波尔斯基：
Second way to think about it is, here's like my favorite finding about testosterone.
第二种思考方式是，这是我最喜欢的关于睾酮的发现。
This was some wonderful work by a guy John Wingfield, who's one of the best behavioral endocrinologists out there.
这是约翰·温菲尔德（John Wingfield）的出色工作，他是最好的行为内分泌学家之一。
About 20 years ago, he formulated what was called the challenge hypothesis of testosterone action.
大约20年前，他提出了所谓的睾酮作用挑战假说。
What does testosterone do?
睾酮有什么作用？
Testosterone is what you secrete when your status is being challenged, and it makes it more likely that you'll do the behaviors needed to hold onto your status.
当你的地位受到挑战时，你会分泌睾丸激素，它会让你更有可能采取维持地位所需的行为。
That's totally boringly straightforward.
这实在是太无聊了。
Robert Sapolsky:
罗伯特·萨波尔斯基：
If you are a baboon, if somebody is challenging your high rank, the appropriate response in your part is going to be aggression.
如果你是一只狒狒，如果有人挑战你的高位，你的适当反应就是攻击。
There it is, we've just gotten through the backdoor testosterone and aggression again.
就是这样，我们刚刚再次通过后门睾丸激素和攻击性。
Then, you get to humans, and humans have lots of different ways of achieving or maintaining status.
然后，你谈到人类，人类有很多不同的方式来实现或维持地位。
All you need to do is go to some fancy private school's annual auction, and you will see all these half-drunk alpha males competing to see who can give the most money away as a show of conspicuous property that they have.
你所需要做的就是去一些高档私立学校的年度拍卖会，你会看到所有这些喝得半醉的雄性大佬们互相竞争，看看谁能捐出最多的钱，以展示他们拥有的炫耀财产。
Robert Sapolsky:
罗伯特·萨波尔斯基：
In a setting like that, I haven't been able to take urine samples at those times unfortunately, but that shows the flip side of it.
在这样的情况下，不幸的是，我当时无法采集尿液样本，但这显示了它的另一面。
If you have a species that hands up status in a very different sort of way, testosterone's going to boost that also.
如果你有一个物种以一种非常不同的方式提升地位，那么睾丸激素也会促进这一点。
Okay, so that generates a totally nutty prediction.
好的，这会产生一个完全疯狂的预测。
Wow, take people in a circumstance, say playing an economic game where you get status by being trustworthy and being generous in your interactions with the game.
哇，让人们处于一种环境中，比如说玩一个经济游戏，你可以通过在与游戏的互动中值得信赖和慷慨来获得地位。
Robert Sapolsky:
罗伯特·萨波尔斯基：
If you give people testosterone, does that make them more generous?
如果你给人们睾丸激素，他们会变得更加慷慨吗？
That's absolutely the case.
绝对是这样。
Totally cool finding.
非常酷的发现。
I'm showing you, I don't know, basically if you took a whole bunch of Buddhist monks and shot them up with testosterone, they'd get all competitive with each other as to who could do the most random acts of kindness.
我告诉你，我不知道，基本上，如果你带着一大群佛教僧人，给他们注射睾丸激素，他们就会互相竞争，看谁能做出最随意的善举。
If we have a societal problem with too much aggression, the first culprit to look at is not testosterone.
如果我们的社会问题是过度攻击性，那么第一个要注意的罪魁祸首不是睾丸激素。
The first to look at is that we hand out so much damn elevated status for aggression in so many circumstances.
首先要注意的是，我们在很多情况下都给予侵略性如此高的地位。
Robert Sapolsky:
罗伯特·萨波尔斯基：
I find that finding to be fantastic.
我发现这个发现太棒了。
Third thing about subtlety of testosterone, like some subtler behavioral effects, you give testosterone to people and they become more confident, they become more self-confident.
第三件事是关于睾酮的微妙之处，就像一些更微妙的行为影响，你给人们睾酮，他们会变得更加自信，他们会变得更加自信。
Well, that's good.
嗯，那很好。
People pay to take all sorts of nonsensical self-help courses that will boost your self-esteem.
人们花钱参加各种无意义的自助课程，以增强你的自尊。
That's a good thing, unless testosterone makes you more confident, that is inaccurate, and you're more likely to barrel into wrong decisions.
这是一件好事，除非睾丸激素让你更加自信，否则这是不准确的，而且你更有可能做出错误的决定。
Robert Sapolsky:
罗伯特·萨波尔斯基：
What's shown in economic gameplay is that testosterone, by making you more confident, makes you less cooperative, because, "Who needs to cooperate because I'm on top of this all on my own." Testosterone makes people cocky and impulsive, and that may be great in one setting, but if in the others, you're absolutely sure your army is going to overrun the other country in three days, "Hell, let's start World War I."
经济游戏中显示的是，睾丸激素会让你更加自信，但也会让你不那么合作，因为“谁需要合作，因为这一切都是我自己掌控的。”睾丸激素使人自大和冲动，这在某种情况下可能很好，但如果在其他情况下，你绝对确定你的军队将在三天内占领另一个国家，“见鬼，让我们开始第一次世界大战。”
Robert Sapolsky:
罗伯特·萨波尔斯基：
You get a big surprise out of it.
你会从中得到一个很大的惊喜。
Testosterone-altering risk assessment beforehand probably played a big role in that miscalculation.
事先进行的睾酮改变风险评估可能在这种误判中发挥了重要作用。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Super interesting.
超级有趣。
I always think about testosterone and dopamine being close cousins in the brain, not just because of their relationship through the pituitary hypothalamus, that of course, but also because of dopamine's salient role in creating this bias towards exteroception.
我一直认为睾丸激素和多巴胺在大脑中是近亲，这当然不仅仅是因为它们通过垂体下丘脑的关系，而且还因为多巴胺在产生这种外感受偏差方面发挥着重要作用。
When somebody takes a drug that increases dopamine, or they're chockablock full of dopamine, they tend – I want to highlight tend, because this is, I'm really generalizing it, but they tend to focus on outward goals, things beyond the boundaries of their skin.
当有人服用增加多巴胺的药物，或者他们体内充满了多巴胺时，他们倾向于——我想强调倾向于，因为这是，我真的在概括它，但他们倾向于关注外在目标，超越他们皮肤界限的事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Testosterone seems to do a bit of the same.
睾酮似乎也有同样的作用。
It tends to put us into a similar mode of perceiving the outside world in ways that we are asking questions like, "How do I relate to this other of my species?
它往往会让我们进入一种类似的感知外部世界的模式，我们会提出这样的问题：“我如何与我的物种中的另一个人建立联系？
How do I relate to these goals?" Is there anything that we can do to better conceptualize the relationship between testosterone, dopamine and motivation, or would that just take us down the alleyways of neural pathways and the hypothalamus, which was fine too.
我如何与这些目标联系起来？”我们能做些什么来更好地概念化睾丸激素、多巴胺和动机之间的关系，或者只是让我们沿着神经通路和下丘脑的小巷走下去，这也很好。
Robert Sapolsky:
罗伯特·萨波尔斯基：
Well, I think it's got lots to do with this massive revisionism about dopamine.
嗯，我认为这与对多巴胺的大规模修正主义有很大关系。
Everyone since the pharaohs got brought up being taught that dopamine is about pleasure and reward, turns out it isn't.
自法老王以来，每个人从小就被教导多巴胺与快乐和奖励有关，但事实证明并非如此。
It's about anticipation of reward, and it's about generating the motivation, the goal-directed behavior needed to go get that reward.
它关乎对奖励的预期，关乎产生动机，以及获得奖励所需的目标导向行为。
Before you know it, you're using elevated dopamine your entire life to motivate you to do whatever is going to get you like entry into heaven, afterlife; it's doing that sort of thing.
在你不知不觉中，你一生都在使用升高的多巴胺来激励你去做任何能让你进入天堂、来世的事情；它正在做那种事情。
Robert Sapolsky:
罗伯特·萨波尔斯基：
It's really about the motivation.
这确实与动机有关。
What testosterone does even in individuals who are not aggressive, and why testosterone replacement is often a very helpful thing for aging males is it increases energy, it increases a sense of thereness, of presence, of alertness that increases motivation.
睾酮即使在不具有攻击性的个体中也会发挥作用，以及为什么睾酮替代通常对老年男性非常有帮助，因为它可以增加能量，增加存在感、存在感和警觉性，从而增加动力。
That's a whole aspect which then takes us into is your motivation to get up and go hand out lots of soup in a soup kitchen for homeless people, or is it to get up and go ethnically cleanse a village?
这是一个完整的方面，然后让我们考虑的是你起身去施粥处为无家可归者分发大量汤的动机，还是起身去对一个村庄进行种族清洗？
It's got much to do with what your makeup was before the testosterone got on board.
这与睾丸激素发挥作用之前你的妆容有很大关系。
Robert Sapolsky:
罗伯特·萨波尔斯基：
It's activating in an energetic sense; testosterone within minutes increases glucose uptake into skeletal muscle, you're just more awake and alert and all of that, and that has a lot to do with what dopamine does.
它在能量意义上被激活；睾酮在几分钟内就会增加骨骼肌对葡萄糖的吸收，你会变得更加清醒和警觉，所有这些都与多巴胺的作用有很大关系。
As one might predict then, getting just the right levels of testosterone infused into your bloodstream feels great to lab rats.
正如人们可能预测的那样，将适量的睾酮注入血液中对实验室老鼠来说感觉很棒。
They will lever press to get infused into the range that optimizes dopamine release.
他们将杠杆压力注入优化多巴胺释放的范围。
You're absolutely right, they're deeply intertwined.
你说得对，它们是紧密相连的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Such beautiful biology there and I love the way you encapsulate their relationship.
那里有如此美丽的生物学，我喜欢你概括他们关系的方式。
I want to ask about estrogen.
我想问一下雌激素的情况。
We don't hear about estrogen as often.
我们不常听说雌激素。
It's always interesting to me now doing some public-facing education that testosterone is this very controversial molecule, just to say it is almost controversial.
对我来说，现在做一些面向公众的教育总是很有趣，睾酮是一种非常有争议的分子，只是说它几乎是有争议的。
Estrogen doesn't seem to hold the same controversial weight, and yet estrogen has a very powerful effect on both the animal brain and on the human brain of males and females.
雌激素似乎没有那么有争议，但雌激素对动物大脑以及男性和女性的人类大脑都有非常强大的影响。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Men do not want their estrogen to go too low.
男性不希望自己的雌激素水平太低。
Terrible things happen.
可怕的事情发生了。
They will lose cognitive function, libido can drop.
他们会失去认知功能，性欲会下降。
Men need estrogen as well, but perhaps maybe we can put the same filter on estrogen as we did on testosterone.
男性也需要雌激素，但也许我们可以像对待睾酮一样对雌激素进行同样的过滤。
Are there any general themes of estrogen that people should be aware of, or do you think that are generally misunderstood?
人们是否应该了解雌激素的一般主题，或者您认为这些主题是否普遍被误解？
Is it really all about feelings and empathy and making us more sensitive?
这真的是情感和同理心让我们变得更加敏感吗？
I sense not.
我感觉不是。
Robert Sapolsky:
罗伯特·萨波尔斯基：
No. It's once again very context-dependent.
不。这又是非常依赖于上下文的。
If estrogen after giving birth is playing a central role in you wanting to shred the face of somebody getting too close to your kittens, kind of thing, we know it's not just warm, fuzzy, empathic kind of stuff.
如果产后雌激素在你想要撕碎离你的小猫太近的人的脸的过程中发挥了核心作用，那么我们知道这不仅仅是温暖、毛茸茸的、同情心之类的东西。
Estrogen in lots of ways could be summarized by if you got a choice in the matter between having a lot of estrogen in your bloodstream or not, go for having a lot of estrogen.
雌激素有很多方面可以概括为：如果您可以在血液中是否含有大量雌激素之间做出选择，那就选择含有大量雌激素。
It enhances cognition, exactly as you said.
正如你所说，它可以增强认知能力。
Robert Sapolsky:
罗伯特·萨波尔斯基：
It stimulates neurogenesis in the hippocampus.
它刺激海马体的神经发生。
It increases glucose and oxygen delivery.
它增加葡萄糖和氧气的输送。
It protects you from dementia, it decreases inflammatory oxidative damage to blood vessels, which is why it's good for protecting from cardiovascular disease, in contrast to testosterone, which is making every one of those things worse.
它可以保护您免受痴呆症的侵害，减少对血管的炎症氧化损伤，这就是为什么它有助于预防心血管疾病，而睾酮则相反，睾酮会使这些事情变得更糟。
This brings up this minefield of the question, which is what about postmenopausal estrogen?
这就提出了这个问题的雷区，那就是绝经后雌激素呢？
Robert Sapolsky:
罗伯特·萨波尔斯基：
All sorts of lab studies with nonhuman primates suggested that you keep estrogen levels high after a monkey's equivalent of menopause, and you are going to keep brain health a lot better, decreasing the risk of dementia, stroke, every such thing.
对非人类灵长类动物进行的各种实验室研究表明，在猴子相当于更年期的情况下，保持较高的雌激素水平，可以更好地保持大脑健康，降低患痴呆症、中风等疾病的风险。
Estrogen is a great antioxidant, all of that.
雌激素是一种很好的抗氧化剂，所有这些。
In the '90s, I think, when Healy, I'm forgetting her name, but when there was the first female head of the NIH, Bernadine Healy set up this massive prospective human study, what was going to be the biggest one of all times.
在 90 年代，我想，当希利的时候，我忘记了她的名字，但是当 NIH 第一位女院长出现时，伯纳丁·希利（Bernadine Healy）建立了这项大规模的前瞻性人体研究，这将是有史以来规模最大的一项。
Robert Sapolsky:
罗伯特·萨波尔斯基：
Looking at the pluses and minuses of postmenopausal estrogen, and tens of thousands of women, and they had to cut the study short because what they were seeing was estrogen was not only doing the normal bad stuff that you expect, in terms of some decalcification stuff, but it was increasing the risk of cardiovascular disease.
研究了绝经后雌激素的优点和缺点，以及数以万计的女性，他们不得不缩短研究，因为他们发现雌激素不仅会造成你所期望的正常坏事，比如脱钙，而且会增加患心血管疾病的风险。
It was increasing the risk of stroke, and it was increasing the risk of dementia and this ground to a halt.
它增加了中风的风险，也增加了患痴呆症的风险，而这种情况已经停止。
Robert Sapolsky:
罗伯特·萨波尔斯基：
Everybody, they stopped this study in front page news, and everybody panicked at that point, and nobody could make sense of it, who had been spending the last 20 years studying the exact same thing in primates and seeing all the protective effects.
大家，他们在头版新闻中停止了这项研究，当时每个人都惊慌失措，没有人能理解它，因为过去 20 年一直在灵长类动物身上研究完全相同的东西，并看到所有的保护作用。
The explanation turned out to be one of those things where, like law of unexpected consequences.
事实证明，这种解释是其中之一，就像意想不到的后果法则一样。
Menopause and women, that last different lengths of time, that may be a factor.
更年期和女性持续时间不同，这可能是一个因素。
You know what, let's not start giving our study subjects more estrogen until they're totally past menopause.
你知道吗，在我们的研究对象完全过了更年期之前，我们不要开始给他们更多的雌激素。
Robert Sapolsky:
罗伯特·萨波尔斯基：
When you've got that lag time in between, you shift all sorts of estrogen receptor patterns, and that's where all of the bad effects come from.
当你之间有一段延迟时间时，你就会改变各种雌激素受体模式，这就是所有不良影响的来源。
All of the monkey studies had involved just maintaining ovulatory levels into the postmenopausal period.
所有的猴子研究都只涉及在绝经后时期维持排卵水平。
You do that and you get great effects.
你这样做就会得到很好的效果。
Estrogen is one of the greatest predictors of protection from Alzheimer's disease, all of that.
雌激素是预防阿尔茨海默病的最佳预测因素之一。
Robert Sapolsky:
罗伯特·萨波尔斯基：
It needs to be physiological, just keep going, keep continuing what your body has been doing for a long time, versus let the whole thing shut down and suddenly try to fire up the coal stoves at the bottom of the basement kind of thing, and get that going.
它需要是生理性的，继续前进，继续你的身体长期以来一直在做的事情，而不是让整个事情停止，然后突然尝试点燃地下室底部的煤炉之类的东西，然后继续进行。
There you get utterly different outcomes, and that caused a lot of human health consequences when people suddenly decided that estrogen is in fact neurologically endangering postmenopausally.
在那里你会得到完全不同的结果，当人们突然认为雌激素实际上对绝经后神经系统产生危害时，这会导致许多人类健康后果。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wow, that's fascinating.
哇，这太迷人了。
I never thought that these steroid hormone receptors could, by not binding estrogen, being devoid of estrogen binding, I should say, could then set off opposite biochemical cascades.
我从来没有想过这些类固醇激素受体可以通过不结合雌激素，没有雌激素结合，我应该说，然后可以引发相反的生化级联反应。
Fascinating, I guess it raises the question about testosterone replacement too, whether or not people should talk to their doctor before too long.
令人着迷的是，我想这也提出了关于睾酮替代的问题，人们是否应该在太久之前与他们的医生交谈。
Men and women talk to your physicians before too long to avoid these.
男性和女性应尽早与您的医生交谈以避免这些情况。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Whatever is happening in these periods where there isn't sufficient testosterone and/or estrogen sounds like it could cause longer-term problems even when therapies are introduced.
无论在睾酮和/或雌激素不足的时期发生什么，听起来即使引入治疗也可能会导致长期问题。
Robert Sapolsky:
罗伯特·萨波尔斯基：
Two additional misery/complications.
两个额外的痛苦/并发症。
You're trying to understand, you look at women with a history with or without postmenopausal estrogen replacement where it's done and you're seeing 20 years later, estrogen is a predictor of a decreased risk of Alzheimer's.
你试图了解，你观察有或没有接受过绝经后雌激素替代治疗的女性，20 年后你会发现，雌激素是阿尔茨海默病风险降低的预测因子。
Then, you got to start trying to do the unpacking prospective type studies how much estrogen at which times?
然后，你必须开始尝试进行前瞻性研究，在什么时间服用多少雌激素？
Estrogen is just a catchall term for a bunch of hormones, estrone, estradiol, estriol, how much of each one of them, natural or synthetic.
雌激素只是一系列激素的总称，雌酮、雌二醇、雌三醇，每种激素的含量，天然的或合成的。
Robert Sapolsky:
罗伯特·萨波尔斯基：
Go try to figure all of that out.
去尝试解决所有这些问题。
The second complication is it's often hard to say anything about what estrogen does outside the context of what progesterone is doing.
第二个并发症是，在黄体酮的作用范围之外，通常很难说出雌激素的作用。
Often, it's not the absolute levels of either, it's the ratio of the two.
通常，这不是两者的绝对水平，而是两者的比率。
This is such a more complicated endocrine system than testosterone, and because you have to generate dramatic cyclicity that like no male hypothalamus ever has to dream of.
这是一个比睾酮更复杂的内分泌系统，因为你必须产生戏剧性的周期性，这是男性下丘脑所梦想不到的。
It's a much, much more complicated system.
这是一个非常非常复杂的系统。
Thus, it's a lot more complicated to understand, let alone figure out what the ideal benefits are of it.
因此，理解它要复杂得多，更不用说弄清楚它的理想好处是什么了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I don't know what to make of the literature on dropping rates of testosterone and endocrine disruptors.
我不知道如何看待有关睾酮和内分泌干扰物下降率的文献。
I was at Berkeley when Tyrone Hayes published his data on these frogs that were drinking water from various locations, throughout the United States, not just in California, and seeing very severe endocrine disruption through blockade of androgen receptors, and all sorts of issues.
当泰隆·海耶斯（Tyrone Hayes）发表有关这些青蛙的数据时，我正在伯克利，这些青蛙从美国各地（而不仅仅是加利福尼亚州）饮用水，并且通过雄激素受体的阻断以及各种问题发现了非常严重的内分泌干扰。
You hear this all the time now, that sperm counts are dropping.
你现在经常听到这样的说法：精子数量正在下降。
That there are all these endocrine disruptors, that there's birth control in the water, in the drinking water.
水里、饮用水里都有这些内分泌干扰物，有节育作用。
It all starts to sound a little crazy, and yet I've also been fooled before by ...
这一切听起来有点疯狂，但我以前也被……愚弄过。
I guess a good example would be, there's a lot of crazy stuff in the world online about all the terrible stuff in highly processed foods, and yet you've got very respectable people, endocrinologists at UCSF like Robert Lustig, saying, "A lot of these hidden sugars and these emulsifiers, they're causing real problems."
我想一个很好的例子是，网上有很多关于高度加工食品中所有可怕成分的疯狂内容，但也有一些非常受人尊敬的人，加州大学旧金山分校的内分泌学家，比如罗伯特·勒斯蒂格，他们说，“很多隐藏的糖和乳化剂，它们正在造成真正的问题。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I've become more open-minded about the question.
我对这个问题的态度变得更加开放。
Are we suffering from drops in sperm counts and testosterone and estrogen and fertility as a consequence of endocrine disruptors in the environments and food, or because of social reasons?
我们的精子数量、睾丸激素、雌激素和生育能力下降是由于环境和食物中的内分泌干扰物造成的，还是由于社会原因？
Is there anything that we can hang our hat on, like real data that you're confident in, or is it just a mess?
有什么我们可以信赖的东西吗，比如你有信心的真实数据，还是只是一团糟？
Robert Sapolsky:
罗伯特·萨波尔斯基：
No, the phenomenon does appear to be quite real.
不，这种现象确实看起来很真实。
Cross-sectional studies, human populations, or I still don't understand why this was one of the first things that they spotted: decreasing testicle size in crocodiles.
横断面研究，人类，或者我仍然不明白为什么这是他们发现的第一件事：鳄鱼的睾丸尺寸减小。
Go figure why that was one of the first contributions to this.
去弄清楚为什么这是对此的第一个贡献。
I think the phenomenon is absolutely real.
我认为这种现象是绝对真实的。
What you're then left with is two classic challenges, which is this is correlated with something broad, environmental toxins, which ones, how much, when, et cetera.
然后你面临两个经典的挑战，那就是这与广泛的环境毒素相关，哪些毒素、多少、何时等等。
Robert Sapolsky:
罗伯特·萨波尔斯基：
The other one always being, well okay — dropping — is it dropping enough to make a difference?
另一个总是，好吧——下降——它的下降足以产生影响吗？
How big of an effect is this?
这影响有多大呢？
Those are where the juries are still out.
这些都是陪审团尚未定论的地方。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's an area that I know there's a lot of interest in, and you've got groups of people who won't touch a receipt at a store because of the BPAs that are on the inks, and then you've got people who don't care about those things.
我知道这是一个人们很感兴趣的领域，有些人不会因为墨水上含有 BPA 而在商店碰触收据，而有些人则不关心这些事情。
It is a fascinating area, and I hope that more biology will be done there soon.
这是一个令人着迷的领域，我希望很快就会在那里进行更多的生物学研究。
I'd like to briefly return to stress.
我想简单地回到压力上来。
You described a study once about two rats, one running on a wheel voluntarily, one who's basically stuck in a running wheel and is forced to run anytime rat number one runs.
您曾经描述过一项关于两只老鼠的研究，其中一只自愿在轮子上奔跑，另一只基本上被困在轮子上，每当第一只老鼠奔跑时就被迫奔跑。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In one case the rat is voluntarily exercising, and in the other case the rat is being forced to go to PE class, so to speak, but really.
在一种情况下，老鼠自愿锻炼，而在另一种情况下，老鼠被迫去上体育课，可以这么说，但确实如此。
And seeing divergent effects on biology.
并看到对生物学的不同影响。
I'd like to just touch into this and use it as a case study for stress mitigation in general.
我想简单谈谈这一点，并将其用作一般缓解压力的案例研究。
I'm rather obsessed, and our colleague David Spiegel, Associate Chair of Psychiatry at Stanford, is obsessed with this question of how humans can start to mitigate their own stress.
我相当着迷，我们的同事、斯坦福大学精神病学副主任大卫·斯皮格尔也痴迷于人类如何开始减轻自己的压力这个问题。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What do you think about stress mitigation, and what should we do as individuals, and as families, and as a culture to try and encourage people to mitigate their stress, but in ways that are not going to turn us into rat number two, where we're being forced to mitigate our own stress, and therefore it becomes more stressful.
你对减轻压力有什么看法？作为个人、作为家庭、作为一种文化，我们应该做什么，尝试鼓励人们减轻压力，但方式不会让我们变成二号老鼠，我们被迫减轻自己的压力，因此压力变得更大。
Robert Sapolsky:
罗伯特·萨波尔斯基：
What you see is rat number one gets all the benefits of exercise.
你所看到的是，一号老鼠获得了锻炼的所有好处。
Rat number two gets all the downsides of severe stress, with the same exact muscle expenditure and movements going on, perfectly yoked, great example that it's the interpretation in your head.
第二只老鼠承受了严重压力的所有缺点，同样的肌肉消耗和运动正在进行，完美地结合在一起，这是你头脑中的解释的一个很好的例子。
I haven't kept up with that literature, but I'll bet you rat number two is having a whole lot more activity in its amygdala than is rat number one.
我没有跟上这些文献，但我敢打赌，第二只老鼠的杏仁核活动比第一只老鼠要多得多。
Robert Sapolsky:
罗伯特·萨波尔斯基：
Stress mitigation, anything I should say here I should preface with I'm reasonably good at telling people what's going to happen if they don't manage their stress.
减轻压力，我应该在这里说的任何事情我都应该作为序言，我相当擅长告诉人们如果他们不管理压力将会发生什么。
I'm terrible at actually managing stress or advising how to manage that.
我不擅长实际管理压力或建议如何管理压力。
I'm much better with the bad news aspect of it.
我对坏消息的看法要好得多。
What do you see is by now just a classic literature half a century old showing what are the building blocks of stress, not "Ooh, you step outside and you've been gored by an elephant."
你现在看到的只是半个世纪前的经典文学，它展示了压力的组成部分，而不是“哦，你走出去，你被大象顶伤了。”
Robert Sapolsky:
罗伯特·萨波尔斯基：
And can you grow from your experience, and what doesn't kill you makes you stronger.
你能否从你的经历中成长，那些杀不死你的东西会让你变得更强大。
You could have a stress response, but you are in the realm of the gray zone of ambiguous social interactions, that sort of thing.
你可能会产生压力反应，但你处于模糊社交互动的灰色地带，诸如此类。
Some people have massive stress responses, others not at all, and between enjoy it.
有些人有巨大的压力反应，有些人则完全没有，但两者之间却很享受。
What are the building blocks of what makes psychological stress stressful?
造成心理压力的因素有哪些？
Then the first one is exactly what is brought up by that running study.
第一个正是该正在进行的研究所提出的内容。
Robert Sapolsky:
罗伯特·萨波尔斯基：
Do you have a sense of control?
你有掌控感吗？
A sense of control makes stressors less stressful.
控制感可以减轻压力源的压力。
The running wheel shows that; or studies where you, you lab rat, or you college freshman volunteer have been trained that by pressing a lever you're less likely to get a shock.
跑轮表明；或者研究中，你、你的实验室老鼠或你的大学新生志愿者已经接受过训练，通过按下杠杆，你不太可能受到电击。
Today, you're at the lever there working away, and unbeknownst to you, the lever has been turned off and it has no effect on shock frequency, but because you think you have some control, you have less of a stress response.
今天，你在杠杆那里努力工作，而你不知道的是，杠杆已经关闭，它对电击频率没有影响，但因为你认为你有一定的控制力，所以你的压力反应较少。
Robert Sapolsky:
罗伯特·萨波尔斯基：
If you're a rat and doing this day in and day out, you're less likely to get an ulcer, a sense of control.
如果你是一只老鼠，日复一日地这样做，你就不太可能得溃疡，一种控制感。
Related to that is a sense of predictability.
与此相关的是一种可预测性。
Rat gets shocked, human gets shocked, whatever, and the scenario either is the shocks come now and then, where the shocks come now and then and 10 seconds before, a little warning light comes on.
老鼠受到电击，人类受到电击，无论如何，情况要么是电击时不时地发生，时不时地电击发生，10 秒前，一个小警告灯亮起。
When you get the warning light, the shocks aren't distressful; you got predictability.
当你看到警告灯时，电击并不会让你感到痛苦；你有可预测性。
Robert Sapolsky:
罗伯特·萨波尔斯基：
If you're not getting warning lights, any second, you could be a half second away from the next shock; you get a warning light, and you know that if there isn't one, you've got at least 10 seconds worth of relaxation; you know what's coming, you can prepare your coping responses.
如果你没有收到警告灯，任何时候你都可能距离下一次电击还有半秒的时间；你会看到一个警告灯，并且你知道如果没有警告灯，你至少有 10 秒钟的放松时间；您知道将要发生什么，您可以准备应对措施。
Best of all afterward, you know when you're finally safe, when you can recover from it.
最重要的是，事后你知道什么时候自己终于安全了，什么时候可以从中恢复过来。
That's enormously protective.
这是非常有保护作用的。
Others outlet for frustration.
其他人则发泄沮丧。
Robert Sapolsky:
罗伯特·萨波尔斯基：
You take a rat who's getting shocked and if it could run on a running wheel, that's a protective thing, if it's doing it voluntarily.
你拿一只受到电击的老鼠来说，如果它能在转轮上奔跑，那就是一种保护性的东西，如果它是自愿这样做的话。
If you've got a rat and it can gnaw on a bar of wood, a stressor is less stressful.
如果你有一只老鼠并且它可以啃咬一根木头，那么压力源的压力就会较小。
Unfortunately, if you have a rat or primate or human, and they're stressed, the ability to aggressively dump on somebody smaller and weaker also reduces the stress response and displacement aggression; the fact that displacement aggression reduces stress accounts for a huge percentage of earth's unhappiness.
不幸的是，如果你有一只老鼠、灵长类动物或人类，并且它们有压力，那么攻击性地向更小、更弱的动物倾倒的能力也会减少压力反应和位移攻击；事实上，流离失所的侵略性可以减轻压力，这一事实在地球上的不幸中占了很大比例。
Robert Sapolsky:
罗伯特·萨波尔斯基：
All of those variables get social support as well, that's a good one.
所有这些变量也得到了社会支持，这是一件好事。
Interpreting circumstances being good news rather than bad.
将情况解释为好消息而不是坏消息。
Hooray, you've got this very simple take-home recipe of go out and get as much control, and as much predictability, and as many outlets and as much social support as possible, and you're going to do just fine.
万岁，你已经有了这个非常简单的带回家的秘诀，那就是走出去，获得尽可能多的控制力、尽可能多的可预测性、尽可能多的渠道和尽可能多的社会支持，你会做得很好。
You go out and do that, and that's a recipe for total disaster, because it's much, much more subtle than that.
如果你出去这样做，那就会导致彻底的灾难，因为它比那要微妙得多。
Robert Sapolsky:
罗伯特·萨波尔斯基：
One great example: okay, so you're getting shocks, do you want a warning beforehand, get a little warning light 10 seconds before each shock.
一个很好的例子：好吧，既然你受到了电击，你想要事先发出警告吗？在每次电击前 10 秒发出一点警告灯。
It's wonderfully protective.
它具有极好的保护作用。
Get a warning shock, get a warning light one second before the shock doesn't do anything.
进行警告电击，在电击不起作用前一秒发出警告灯。
There's not enough time for you to get the psychological benefits of the anticipation.
你没有足够的时间来获得预期带来的心理好处。
Now instead, get the little warning coming on two minutes before each shock, and it's going to make things worse because you're not going to be sitting there reveling in your sense of predictability.
现在，如果在每次电击前两分钟发出小警告，事情就会变得更糟，因为你不会坐在那里陶醉于你的可预测性。
Robert Sapolsky:
罗伯特·萨波尔斯基：
You're going to be sitting there for two minutes saying, "Damn, here it comes." Predictive information only works in a narrow domain.
你会坐在那里两分钟说：“该死，它来了。”预测信息仅适用于狭窄的领域。
Similarly, control — do you want to have a sense of control in the face of stress?
同样，控制——面对压力你想有控制感吗？
The answer is only if it is a mild to moderate stressor, because what's happening then, your sense of control is completely independent of the reality of whether you have control or not.
答案是，只有当它是轻度到中度的压力源时，因为那时发生的事情，你的控制感完全独立于你是否有控制权的现实。
In the face of mild to moderate stressors, a sense of control gets interpreted as, "Wow, look how much worse things could have been.
面对轻度到中度的压力源，控制感被解释为：“哇，看看事情本来可以更糟。
Thank God, I have control.
感谢上帝，我有控制权。
I'm on top of this, master of my fate."
我是我的主宰者，我的命运的主人。”
Robert Sapolsky:
罗伯特·萨波尔斯基：
In contrast, if it's a major stressor, all that arbitrary sense of control does is make you think, "Oh my God, look how much better it could have been; I could have prevented it." We all know that intuitively; we do that in the face of people's worst stressors.
相反，如果它是一个主要的压力源，那么任意的控制感只会让你想，“天哪，看看它本来可以好得多；我本来可以阻止它。”我们都凭直觉知道这一点；我们在面对人们最严重的压力时这样做。
Nobody could have stopped the car the way the kid suddenly jumped out.
没有人能像那孩子突然跳出来那样拦住车。
It wouldn't have mattered if you had gotten them to the doctor a month ago instead of now, it wouldn't have made any ...
如果你一个月前而不是现在就让他们去看医生，那也没关系，不会产生任何……
you didn't actually have any control.
你实际上没有任何控制权。
Robert Sapolsky:
罗伯特·萨波尔斯基：
What you see is you absolutely want to have a huge sense of control over mild to moderate stressors and especially ones that result in a good outcome.
你所看到的是，你绝对希望对轻度至中度的压力源有强烈的控制感，尤其是那些能带来良好结果的压力源。
Hooray for me.
我万岁。
And in the face of horrible stressors, what you want to do is like self-deception, and like truth and beauty don't necessarily go hand-in-hand at that point.
而面对可怕的压力源，你想做的就像是自欺欺人，就像真理和美丽在那时并不一定是齐头并进的。
That's why stress management techniques about control and predictability wind up being far worse than neutral if you're preaching that to somebody homeless or somebody with terminal cancer, or somebody who's a refugee.
这就是为什么如果你向无家可归的人、患有晚期癌症的人或难民宣讲有关控制和可预测性的压力管理技术，结果会比中性的要糟糕得多。
Tell a neurotic middle-class person that they have the psychological tools to turn hell into heaven, and there's some truth to that, do the same thing to somebody who's going through a real hell, and that's just privileged heartlessness to do that because that doesn't work.
告诉一个神经质的中产阶级，他们拥有将地狱变成天堂的心理工具，这有一定道理，对正在经历真正地狱的人做同样的事情，这只是特权无情这样做，因为那是行不通的。
More and more outlets — if your outlets are damaging, that's not a good way to mitigate stress.
越来越多的销售点——如果你的销售点有破坏性，那么这并不是减轻压力的好方法。
Social support — if you're confusing mere acquaintances for real social support, you're going to have the rug pulled out from under you at some point.
社会支持——如果你把单纯的熟人与真正的社会支持混为一谈，那么在某个时候你就会感到自卑。
Robert Sapolsky:
罗伯特·萨波尔斯基：
If you are mistaking social support for going and bitching and moaning and demanding supportiveness from everyone around you rather than you doing some of that reciprocally, that's not going to work very well either.
如果你把社会支持误认为是发脾气、抱怨、抱怨和要求周围每个人的支持，而不是你自己做一些相互的支持，那么这也不会起到很好的作用。
It's not simple.
这并不简单。
It's not for nothing that lots of us are really lousy at being good friends, and things like that.
我们很多人都不擅长成为好朋友，诸如此类的事情，这并非没有原因。
Why it takes a lot of work to do it right, because we do it wrong, and it may temporarily seem like a great thing, but when it turns out to be completely misplaced faith, you're going to be feeling worse than before you started.
为什么需要做很多工作才能把它做好，因为我们做错了，而且它可能暂时看起来是一件伟大的事情，但当它被证明是完全错误的信念时，你会感觉比开始之前更糟糕。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Interesting.
有趣。
These days there's a lot of interest in using physical practices to mitigate stress.
如今，人们对使用身体练习来减轻压力很感兴趣。
Trying to get out of the ruminating and to some extent take control of neural circuits in the brain by using exercise and using breathing and hypnosis.
试图通过锻炼、呼吸和催眠来摆脱沉思，并在某种程度上控制大脑中的神经回路。
Of course, hypnosis has a mental component as well.
当然，催眠也有心理成分。
What are your thoughts on stress mitigation from the standpoint of, okay, so we don't want to be rat number two, we want to select something for ourselves.
从以下角度来看，您对缓解压力有何看法：好吧，我们不想成为第二号老鼠，我们想为自己选择一些东西。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We have to take the initiative for ourselves.
我们必须为自己采取主动。
Being forced into exercising, it could actually have negative health effects perhaps.
被迫锻炼实际上可能会对健康产生负面影响。
We need to pick something that we like, we need to take control of it.
我们需要选择我们喜欢的东西，我们需要控制它。
In terms of supporting other people, you touched on that a bit.
在支持他人方面，你提到了一点。
What is the best way to support other people?
支持他人的最佳方式是什么？
Is it to talk about the stressful thing?
是在谈论有压力的事情吗？
I'm not asking you to play psychologist here, but I find divergent data on this.
我并不是要求你在这里扮演心理学家，但我发现这方面的数据存在分歧。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We can spin ourselves up into a lather by ruminating on something, and language seems to me like it's a wonderful tool, but it's also a fairly deprived tool because it doesn't really get into the core of our physiology like something like breathing would.
我们可以通过沉思某事而让自己陷入泡沫，在我看来，语言是一个很棒的工具，但它也是一个相当被剥夺的工具，因为它并没有像呼吸那样真正进入我们生理的核心。
What are your thoughts on, for lack of a better way to put it, more head-centered, cognitive approaches to stress mitigation versus going at the core physiology.
你的想法是什么，因为缺乏更好的表达方式，更以头脑为中心的认知方法来缓解压力，而不是关注核心生理学。
Cold showers now are even a thing, to some extent, just to get people stress-acclimated, voluntarily taking cold showers.
现在洗冷水澡甚至成为一种现象，在某种程度上，只是为了让人们适应压力，自愿洗冷水澡。
Robert Sapolsky:
罗伯特·萨波尔斯基：
That makes some sense physiologically.
这在生理上是有一定道理的。
Preconditioning for when the real stressors come.
为真正的压力源到来做好准备。
In terms of what you bring up, transcendental meditation, mindfulness, exercise, prayer, reflecting on gratitude, all that sort of thing.
就你所提出的而言，超然冥想、正念、锻炼、祈祷、反思感恩之类的事情。
Collectively, they work — on the average.
总的来说，他们是有效的——平均而言。
They work in terms of, they can lower heart rate and cholesterol levels and have all sorts of good outcomes, but they come with provisos.
它们的作用是，可以降低心率和胆固醇水平，并产生各种良好的结果，但它们也有附带条件。
Robert Sapolsky:
罗伯特·萨波尔斯基：
One is exactly the caveat that comes out of the running wheel study is it doesn't matter how many of your friends swear by the stress-management technique, if doing it makes you want to scream your head off after 10 seconds, that's not the one that's going to work for you.
跑轮研究中得出的一个警告是，无论你有多少朋友坚信压力管理技术，如果这样做让你在 10 秒后想尖叫，那么这对你就不起作用。
Read the fine print and the testimonials, but it's got to be something that works for you.
阅读细则和推荐，但它一定是适合您的。
Another one is the stress-management-type techniques that work — you can't save them for the weekend; you can't save them for when you're stuck on hold on the phone with music for two minutes.
另一种是有效的压力管理型技巧——你不能把它们留到周末；你必须把它们留到周末。当您在手机上听音乐长达两分钟时，您无法保存它们。
It's got to be something where you stop what you're doing, and do it virtually daily or every other day, and spend 20, 30 minutes doing it.
它必须是你停下正在做的事情，几乎每天或每隔一天做一次，并花 20 到 30 分钟来做。
What you see coming out of that is this like 80/20 rule from economics: 80/20, 80% of the complaints in the store come from 20% of the customers, things like that.
你看到的结果就像经济学中的 80/20 规则：80/20，商店里 80% 的投诉来自 20% 的顾客，诸如此类。
What you see is if your entire life consists of every single thing on your shoulders that you can't say no to 24/7, if you've stopped that and finally said, "My well-being is important enough that I'm finally going to say no to some of the stuff that I can't say no to, and I'm going to do it every day for 20 minutes."
你会看到，如果你的整个生活由你肩上的每一件事情组成，你无法对 24/7 说不，如果你已经停止这样做并最终说：“我的幸福足够重要，以至于我终于要对一些我无法拒绝的事情说不，并且我每天都会这样做 20 分钟。”
Robert Sapolsky:
罗伯特·萨波尔斯基：
Whatever stress management technique you then do in those 20 minutes, short of who knows what, you are already 80% of the way there simply by having decided your well-being is important enough that you are going to stop every single day and have that as a priority.
无论你在这 20 分钟内采取什么压力管理技巧，谁知道会发生什么，你已经成功了 80%，只要你认定你的健康足够重要，你每天都会停下来，把它作为优先事项。
That's exactly the same finding that you find people with chronic depression, untreated, that merely calling and getting an appointment to see a mental health professional.
这与你发现患有慢性抑郁症的人未经治疗，只是打电话预约去看心理健康专家的结果完全相同。
People start feeling better already, because it's evidence that you've been activated and you matter enough to do this, and you could conceive that this would actually have a good outcome rather than a hopeless one.
人们已经开始感觉好多了，因为这证明你已经被激活了，而且你足够重要来做到这一点，你可以想象这实际上会产生一个好的结果，而不是一个绝望的结果。
Just doing something meditative or reflective every day or so, and it hardly even matters which one you're doing.
只是每天做一些冥想或反思的事情，而你做哪一件并不重要。
What comes out of that is thus another warning, which is do not trust anybody who says it has been scientifically proven that their brand of stress management works better than the other ones.
由此得出的另一个警告是，不要相信任何人说，经过科学证明，他们的压力管理品牌比其他品牌更有效。
Just watch your wallet at that point.
到时候就看好你的钱包吧。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Amen.
阿门。
I think one of the core goals of my lab and David Spiegel's lab, and I know you've worked with David in published papers with David as well, is to really try and find out what are the various entry points to this thing that we call the autonomic nervous system and the stress system, and these systems that when gone unchecked really can take us down a dark path.
我认为我的实验室和大卫·斯皮格尔实验室的核心目标之一，我知道你也曾与大卫一起发表过论文，就是真正尝试找出我们称之为自主神经系统和压力系统的各种切入点，而这些系统如果不加控制，真的会把我们带入一条黑暗的道路。
The idea that there are so many entry points is really the one that keeps ...
存在如此多的入口点的想法确实是让......
what the data keeps telling us over and over again.
数据不断告诉我们什么。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There's no magic breathing tool or exercise, it's any variety of those, or one of those.
没有什么神奇的呼吸工具或练习，只是其中的任何一种，或者其中之一。
Again, we come back to this idea that it's the one that you select, and the one that you make space for, and it's the one that you hopefully enjoy that's going to work best in terms of physiology.
再次，我们回到这个想法，即这是你选择的那个，你为之腾出空间的那个，这是你希望享受的那个，在生理学方面最有效。
Robert Sapolsky:
罗伯特·萨波尔斯基：
And one that's benign for those people who are stuck around you.
这对于那些困在你身边的人来说是一件好事。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
That brings me to this question of I find it amazing that how we perceive an event, and whether or not we chose to be in that event or not can have such incredibly different effects on circuitry of the brain and circuitry of the body, and biology of cells.
这让我想到了这个问题：我发现令人惊讶的是，我们如何感知一个事件，以及我们是否选择参与该事件，会对大脑回路和身体回路以及细胞生物学产生如此令人难以置信的不同影响。
In some ways, it boggles my mind.
在某些方面，这让我感到困惑。
How can a decision made, presumably with the prefrontal cortex, although other parts of the brain as well, how can that change essentially the polarity of a response in the body?
可能是通过前额叶皮层做出的决定，尽管大脑的其他部分也是如此，这如何从本质上改变身体反应的极性？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You've talked before about Type A personalities, and that we don't have to go into all the detail there, for sake of time, but it is interesting that the effects of endothelial cells, literally of the size of the portals for blood, are in opposite direction depending on whether or not somebody wants to be in a situation, is a highly motivated person.
你之前谈到过A型人格，由于时间关系，我们不必详细讨论那里的所有细节，但有趣的是，内皮细胞的影响，实际上是血液门户的大小，是相反的方向，取决于一个人是否愿意处于一种情况，是一个高度积极的人。
Maybe you could just give us the top contour of that because I think it really illustrates this principle so beautifully.
也许你可以给我们提供它的顶部轮廓，因为我认为它确实如此完美地阐释了这一原理。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Then, maybe if you would, you could just speculate on how the brain might have this switch to turn one experience from terrible to beneficial or from beneficial to terrible.
然后，也许如果你愿意的话，你可以推测大脑如何进行这种转换，将一种经历从可怕变为有益，或从有益变为可怕。
It's really fascinating.
这真的很令人着迷。
Robert Sapolsky:
罗伯特·萨波尔斯基：
All you need to do is tonight before you're going to sleep and you're lying in bed and you're nice and drowsy, your heart's beating nice and slow, you'll start thinking about the fact that that heart isn't going to beat forever.
你需要做的就是今晚睡觉之前，你躺在床上，你很舒服，很昏昏欲睡，你的心脏跳动得很好而且很慢，你会开始思考这样一个事实：心脏不会永远跳动。
Imagine your toes getting cold afterward and imagine the flow of blood coming to a halt, and all of you clotting.
想象一下你的脚趾随后变冷，想象一下血液流动停止，整个人都凝固了。
You're going to be doing something with your physiology at that point that 99% of mammals out there only do if they're running frantically.
到那时，你将根据你的生理机能做一些99%的哺乳动物只有在疯狂奔跑时才会做的事情。
Robert Sapolsky:
罗伯特·萨波尔斯基：
You're going to be turning on your sympathetic stress response with thought, with emotions with memory.
你将通过思想、情感和记忆来开启你的交感压力反应。
The measure of that is just how much the cortex and the limbic system sends projections down to all the autonomic regulators in the brain.
衡量这一点的标准是皮层和边缘系统向大脑中的所有自主调节器发送多少投射。
You can think autonomic regulatory neurons into action in ways that only other animals can do with extremes of environmental circumstances.
你可以想象自主调节神经元会以只有其他动物才能在极端环境条件下采取的方式发挥作用。
Given that and the autonomic role, the other big challenge in understanding it is gigantic individual differences.
考虑到这一点和自主作用，理解它的另一个巨大挑战是巨大的个体差异。
Robert Sapolsky:
罗伯特·萨波尔斯基：
Talk about the optimal amount of stress that counts as stimulation, and in general that's stress that's not too severe and doesn't go on for too long and that's overall in a benevolent setting, and under those conditions we love being stressed by something unexpected, and out of control unpredictability, like a really interesting plot turn in the movie you're watching.
谈论算作刺激的最佳压力量，一般来说，这种压力不会太严重，也不会持续太久，总体来说是在仁慈的环境中，在这种情况下，我们喜欢受到意外的、失控的不可预测的事情的压力，就像你正在看的电影中非常有趣的情节转折。
That's great, but you get the individual differences that somehow has to accommodate the fact that for some people the perfect stimulatory amount of stress is getting up early for an Audubon bird watching walk next Sunday morning.
这很好，但你会发现个体差异必须以某种方式适应这样一个事实：对于某些人来说，完美的刺激压力是下周日早上早起去奥杜邦观鸟散步。
Robert Sapolsky:
罗伯特·萨波尔斯基：
For somebody else, it's signing up to be like a mercenary in Yemen; and tremendous individual differences that swamp any simple prescriptions.
对于其他人来说，这就像也门的雇佣兵一样；巨大的个体差异淹没了任何简单的处方。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The prefrontal cortex, this thinking machinery that we all harbor, it's such a double-edged sword.
前额皮质，我们所有人都拥有的思维机器，它是一把双刃剑。
What's remarkable to me is how the areas of the brain like the hypothalamus and the amygdala, they're sort of like switches.
对我来说，值得注意的是下丘脑和杏仁核等大脑区域有点像开关。
There's context and there's gain control.
有上下文，有增益控制。
You talked about the gain control by testosterone, et cetera, but they're really like switches.
您谈到了睾酮等的增益控制，但它们实际上就像开关。
If you stimulate ventromedial hypothalamus, you get the right neurons, an animal will try and kill even an object that's sitting next to it.
如果刺激下丘脑腹内侧区，就会获得正确的神经元，动物甚至会尝试杀死坐在它旁边的物体。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You tickle some other neurons, it'll try and mate with that same object.
你刺激其他一些神经元，它会尝试与同一个物体交配。
It's really wild.
真的很狂野。
I think there are probably rules to prefrontal cortex also, but it sounds like the context, plural, which prefrontal cortex can draw from is probably infinite, so that we could probably learn to perceive threat in anything.
我认为前额叶皮层也可能有规则，但听起来前额叶皮层可以从中汲取的复数上下文可能是无限的，因此我们可能可以学会感知任何事物中的威胁。
Whether or not it's another group, or whether or not it's science, or whether or not it's somebody's version of the shape of the earth versus another.
不管它是否是另一个群体，或者它是否是科学，或者它是否是某人对地球形状的版本与另一个版本的比较。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's like you can plug in anything to this system and give it enough data, and I think it sounds like you could drive a fear response or a love response.
就像你可以将任何东西插入这个系统并为其提供足够的数据，我认为这听起来像是你可以驱动恐惧反应或爱反应。
Is that overstepping?
这是否越界了？
Robert Sapolsky:
罗伯特·萨波尔斯基：
Or a mixed, horribly ambivalent one that is changing by the millisecond, then could be mutually contradictory?
或者是一种混合的、极其矛盾的、以毫秒为单位变化的、然后可能是相互矛盾的？
No, that's absolutely the case.
不，绝对是这样。
The prefrontal cortex — I more than once have regretted having wasted 30 years of my life studying the hippocampus when I should have been studying the prefrontal cortex, because it's so much more interesting, what it does, and it's all this contextual stuff.
前额叶皮层——我不止一次后悔自己浪费了 30 年的时间来研究海马体，而我本来应该研究前额叶皮层，因为它的作用要有趣得多，而且都是与背景相关的东西。
It's all the ways in which it's not okay to lie in this setting, but it's a great thing in another.
在这种情况下撒谎是不可以的，但在另一种情况下撒谎却是一件好事。
Robert Sapolsky:
罗伯特·萨波尔斯基：
It's not okay to kill unless you do it to them, and then you get a medal.
杀人是不行的，除非你杀了他们，然后你才能得到一枚奖章。
It's not ...
这不是...
all of this social context and moral relativity and situational ethics stuff.
所有这些社会背景、道德相对论和情境伦理学的东西。
That's the prefrontal cortex that's got to master that, and that winds up meaning that's the place in your brain, more than anywhere, where you say your perception of things can powerfully influence the reality of what's coming into you.
前额叶皮层必须掌握这一点，这最终意味着它是你大脑中的一个地方，比任何地方都更重要，你对事物的感知可以强有力地影响你所面临的现实。
Great example, just harking back to testosterone.
很好的例子，让我们回到睾丸激素。
Robert Sapolsky:
罗伯特·萨波尔斯基：
Exercise boosts up testosterone levels.
运动可以提高睾酮水平。
Does exercise and success do it more than exercise, and failure literature back in the '80s, or so, looking at outcomes of marathons; did testosterone rise more in the people who win than the losers.
运动和成功是否比 80 年代左右的运动和失败文献更有效，看看马拉松的结果？获胜者的睾酮水平是否比失败者上升得更多？
Wrestling matches, things of that sort with a simple prediction.
摔跤比赛之类的事情只需简单的预测即可。
The answer wound up being you didn't see a simple answer.
答案最终是你没有看到一个简单的答案。
Okay, you win the marathon, that's not necessarily an increase, a predictor of increased testosterone.
好吧，你赢得了马拉松，这并不一定是增加，而是睾丸激素增加的预测指标。
What's that about?
那是关于什么的？
Robert Sapolsky:
罗伯特·萨波尔斯基：
Then, you find the winner ...
然后，你就找到了获胜者......
testosterone decreases, and you find out the guy who came in 73rd is having a massive testosterone increase.
睾酮水平下降，你会发现排在第 73 位的人睾酮水平大幅上升。
Whoa, what's that about?
哇，那是关于什么的？
What's that about is far more human subtlety.
这更多的是人类的微妙之处。
The guy who won the race has a decline in testosterone because he came in three minutes later than he really, really was expecting, and everybody now is going to be writing it up about how he's over the hill.
赢得比赛的人的睾丸激素有所下降，因为他比他真正预期的晚了三分钟，现在每个人都会写下他是如何克服困难的。
Robert Sapolsky:
罗伯特·萨波尔斯基：
The guy who came in seventy-third is having a boost of testosterone because he was assuming he'd be dead from a heart attack by the third mile, and instead he managed to finish.
跑到第 73 英里的那个人的睾丸激素水平有所提高，因为他以为自己会在第三英里时因心脏病发作而死亡，但他却成功完成了比赛。
It's this interpretive stuff going on in there, and that's what prefrontal cortex is about.
那里正在发生解释性的事情，这就是前额叶皮层的作用。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Amazing.
太棒了。
It raises this question of cognitive flexibility.
它提出了认知灵活性的问题。
Can we tell ourselves that something is good for us even if we're not enjoying it?
我们能否告诉自己，即使我们不喜欢某件事，它对我们也有好处？
Can we wriggle around these corners of choosing the exercise.
我们可以在选择练习时绕过这些角落吗？
I personally am not a big fan of long bouts of meditation, but I've benefited tremendously from things like dedicated breathing and shorter rounds of meditation.
我个人不太喜欢长时间的冥想，但我从专注的呼吸和较短的冥想中受益匪浅。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Can I tell myself that it's good for me and wriggle around the corner and get my physiology working the way I want?
我可以告诉自己这对我有好处，然后扭动身体，让我的生理机能按照我想要的方式运作吗？
Do we have cognitive flexibility?
我们有认知灵活性吗？
Can I be that third place runner and tell myself, "Well, at least I came in, I wanted to win so badly.
我可以成为第三名并告诉自己，“好吧，至少我进来了，我非常想赢。
That was my primary goal, but another goal was to beat my previous time, and I did do that." To what extent can we toggle this relationship between the prefrontal cortex and these other more primitive systems?
这是我的首要目标，但另一个目标是击败我之前的成绩，我确实做到了。”我们可以在多大程度上切换前额叶皮层和其他更原始系统之间的关系？
Robert Sapolsky:
罗伯特·萨波尔斯基：
An enormous amount.
数量巨大。
For example, being low in a hierarchy is generally bad for health and every mammal out there, including us, but we do something special, which is we can be part of multiple hierarchies at the same time.
例如，等级较低通常对健康和包括我们在内的每一种哺乳动物都不利，但我们做了一些特别的事情，那就是我们可以同时成为多个等级的一部分。
While you may be low ranking in one of them, you could be extremely high ranking in another.
虽然您可能在其中一项中排名较低，但在另一项中您可能排名极高。
You have the crappiest job in your corporation, but you are the captain of the softball team this year for the company.
你的工作是公司里最糟糕的，但你今年却是公司垒球队的队长。
Robert Sapolsky:
罗伯特·萨波尔斯基：
You better bet that's somebody who's going to find all sorts of ways to decide that nine to five, Monday to Friday is just stupid paying the bills.
你最好敢打赌，这个人会想尽各种办法来决定，周一到周五朝九晚五的工作方式只是愚蠢的支付账单。
What really matters is the prestige on the weekend.
真正重要的是周末的声望。
You're poorer, but you're the deacon of your church.
你比较穷，但你是教会的执事。
We can play all sorts of psychological games with that.
我们可以用它来玩各种心理游戏。
One of the most consistent, reliable ones that we do, and need to use the frontal cortex like crazy , is somebody does something rotten and you need to attribute it.
我们所做的最一致、最可靠的事情之一，并且需要疯狂地使用额叶皮层，就是有人做了一些糟糕的事情，你需要归因于它。
The answer is they did something rotten because they're rotten, always have been, always will be, this constitutional explanation.
答案是他们做了一些腐烂的事情，因为他们腐烂了，一直是，永远都会是，这个宪法解释。
You do something rotten to somebody, and how do you explain it afterward?
你做了一些对别人不好的事，事后你如何解释？
A situational one, "I was tired, I was stressed, and this sort of setting, I misunderstood this." We are best at excusing ourselves from bad things because we have access to our inner lives.
一种情景性的，“我很累，我压力很大，在这种情况下，我误解了这一点。”我们最擅长为不好的事情找借口，因为我们可以了解自己的内心生活。
We've got prefrontal cortexes that are great at coming up with a situational explanation rather than, hey, maybe you're just like a selfish, rotten human.
我们的前额叶皮层非常擅长提出情境解释，而不是说，嘿，也许你就像一个自私、腐烂的人。
You need to change.
你需要改变。
That's all prefrontal cortex, and we do that every time.
这都是前额叶皮层，我们每次都会这样做。
We don't let somebody merge in the lane in front of us, even though you curse somebody who does the same thing to you, and ...
我们不会让某人在我们前面的车道上并入，即使你咒骂对你做同样事情的人，而且......
endlessly.
无休无止。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I love it.
我喜欢它。
Your statement about the fact that we can select multiple hierarchies to participate in, to me, seems like a particularly important one nowadays with social media being so prevalent.
在我看来，您关于我们可以选择多个层次结构来参与这一事实的说法，在社交媒体如此盛行的今天似乎是一个特别重要的说法。
I know you're not particularly active on social media, although you might be pleasantly or, I don't know, unpleasantly surprised to find out that there's a lot of positive discussion about you and your work, so you don't even need to be on there.
我知道你在社交媒体上并不是特别活跃，尽管你可能会很高兴，或者，我不知道，会惊讶地发现有很多关于你和你的工作的积极讨论，所以你甚至不需要在那里。
We'll just continue to discuss your work.
我们将继续讨论你的工作。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What's interesting about social media, I've found, is that the context is very, very broad.
我发现社交媒体的有趣之处在于它的背景非常非常广泛。
One could argue that who one selects to follow and which news articles you're reading, et cetera, can create a funneling of information that itself can be dangerous.
有人可能会争辩说，选择关注谁以及您正在阅读哪些新闻文章等等，可能会形成一个信息漏斗，而该信息漏斗本身就可能是危险的。
More verification of crazy ideas or even just less exposure to new ideas.
更多地验证疯狂的想法，甚至更少地接触新想法。
There's also this idea that social media is an incredibly broad context.
还有一种观点认为社交媒体是一个极其广泛的环境。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
As you scroll through a feed, it's no longer like being in your eighth grade classroom or your office, or your faculty meeting, you are being exposed to thousands, if not millions of context.
当您滚动浏览提要时，它不再像在八年级教室或办公室或教员会议中那样，您会接触到数千甚至数百万的背景信息。
This meal, that soccer game, this person's body, this person's intellect.
这顿饭，那场足球比赛，这个人的身体，这个人的智力。
YouTube is another example.
YouTube 是另一个例子。
It's a vast, vast landscape.
这是一片辽阔、辽阔的风景。
The context is completely mishmash, whereas I'm assuming we evolved, I think we did evolve under context that were much more constrained.
环境完全是大杂烩，虽然我假设我们进化了，但我认为我们确实是在受到更多限制的环境下进化的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We interacted with a limited number of individuals in an unlimited number of different domains.
我们与无限数量的不同领域中有限数量的个人进行互动。
Seasons tended to constrain us all.
季节往往会限制我们所有人。
Of course, then we got phones and televisions, and this started to expand, but now more than ever, our brain, our prefrontal cortex, and our sense of where we exist in these multiple hierarchies has essentially wicked out into infinity.
当然，后来我们有了电话和电视，这种情况开始扩大，但现在我们的大脑、前额皮质以及我们对自己在这些多重层次结构中的存在位置的感觉比以往任何时候都更加严重。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
How do you think this might be interacting with some of these more primitive systems and other aspects of our biology?
您认为这可能如何与一些更原始的系统和我们生物学的其他方面相互作用？
Robert Sapolsky:
罗伯特·萨波尔斯基：
Well, I think what you get is in some ways the punchline of what's most human about humans, which is over and over we use the exact same blueprint, the same hormones, the same kinases, the same receptors, the same everything.
好吧，我认为你所得到的在某种程度上是人类最人性化的点睛之笔，我们一遍又一遍地使用完全相同的蓝图，相同的激素，相同的激酶，相同的受体，相同的一切。
We're built out of the exact same stuff as all these other species out there.
我们是由与其他所有物种完全相同的物质构成的。
Then, we go and use it in a completely novel way.
然后，我们以一种完全新颖的方式使用它。
Usually, in terms of being able to abstract stuff over space and time in dramatic ways.
通常，是指能够以戏剧性的方式在空间和时间上抽象事物。
Robert Sapolsky:
罗伯特·萨波尔斯基：
So okay, you're a low-ranking baboon, and you can feel badly because you just killed a rabbit, and you're about to eat, and some higher-ranking guy boots you off and takes it away from you.
所以好吧，你是一只低等级的狒狒，你可能会感觉很糟糕，因为你刚刚杀了一只兔子，而你正要吃东西，而一些更高等级的人把你踢了下来，把它从你身边夺走了。
You feel crummy and it's stressful and you're unhappy.
你感觉很糟糕，压力很大，而且不快乐。
We are doing the exact same things with our brain and bodies when we're losing a sense of self-esteem.
当我们失去自尊感时，我们的大脑和身体正在做同样的事情。
We can do it by watching a movie character on the screen and feeling inadequate compared to how wonderful or attractive they are.
我们可以通过观看屏幕上的电影角色并与他们的精彩或吸引力相比感到不足来做到这一点。
Robert Sapolsky:
罗伯特·萨波尔斯基：
We can do it by somebody driving past us in an expensive car, and we don't even see their face.
我们可以通过某人开着一辆昂贵的汽车从我们身边驶过，而我们甚至看不到他们的脸来做到这一点。
You can feel belittled by your own socioeconomic status.
您可能会因自己的社会经济地位而感到被贬低。
You can watch the lifestyles or the rich and famous or read about what Bezos is up to, and for some reason decide your life is less fulfilling because you didn't fly into space for 11 minutes.
你可以观看富人和名人的生活方式，或者阅读贝佐斯的动态，然后出于某种原因，你会因为 11 分钟没有飞入太空而觉得自己的生活不太充实。
Robert Sapolsky:
罗伯特·萨波尔斯基：
You can feel miserable about yourself in ways that no other organism can, simply because we can have our meaningful social networks include the party you're reading about on Facebook, that you weren't invited to because it's taking place in Singapore, and you don't know any of those people.
你可能会以其他有机体无法做到的方式对自己感到痛苦，仅仅因为我们可以让我们有意义的社交网络包括你在 Facebook 上读到的聚会，你没有被邀请参加，因为它在新加坡举行，而且你不认识这些人中的任何一个。
Nonetheless, somehow that could be a means for you to feel less content with who you've turned out to be.
尽管如此，不知何故，这可能会成为你对自己的现状感到不那么满意的一种方式。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do you take steps in your own life to actively restrict the context in which you think and live and contemplate in order to enhance your creative life, your intellectual life?
你是否在自己的生活中采取措施，积极限制你思考、生活和沉思的环境，以增强你的创造性生活、智力生活？
Are those steps that you actively take?
这些是您积极采取的步骤吗？
Robert Sapolsky:
罗伯特·萨波尔斯基：
Well, I very actively don't know how to make use of anything with social media.
嗯，我非常不知道如何利用社交媒体来利用任何东西。
I guess that counts as my having thus actively chosen not to learn how, so that's the case.
我想这就是我主动选择不去学习的原因，所以就是这样。
Certainly, for the last year and a half, like lots of people, I've gone through stretches where I've managed to sort of enforce a moratorium on looking at the news, and that was wonderfully freeing.
当然，在过去的一年半里，像很多人一样，我也经历过一段时间，我设法强制暂停看新闻，这真是一种自由。
I think in the larger sense though, in addition to me being a neurobiologist, I'd spent decades spending part of each year studying wild baboons out in a national park in East Africa.
但我认为，从更广泛的意义上来说，除了我是一名神经生物学家之外，我还花了几十年的时间，每年花一部分时间在东非的一个国家公园里研究野生狒狒。
Robert Sapolsky:
罗伯特·萨波尔斯基：
I'd spend three months a year without electricity, without phone calls, going 12 hours a day without saying a word to somebody.
我每年有三个月没有电，没有电话，每天工作 12 个小时，不跟任何人说一句话。
When I finally would, it would be somebody, nomadic pastoralist guy in a different language.
当我最终愿意时，那将是一个使用不同语言的游牧牧民。
Yeah, I did 90% of my insightful thinking about anything in the laboratory during those three months each year, and not when in the lab, and not when inundated with stuff.
是的，每年这三个月里，我90%的深刻思考都是在实验室里进行的，而不是在实验室里，也不是在被东西淹没的时候。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, I think there's a shifting trend towards trying to create a narrowing of context.
嗯，我认为现在有一种趋势正在转变，试图缩小范围。
I like what I see.
我喜欢我所看到的。
I have a niece, she's 14 years old, and she and her friends are very good at putting their phones away.
我有一个侄女，她 14 岁，她和她的朋友们都很擅长把手机收起来。
They say, "We're not going to have our phones for this interaction." Especially after, and I realize we're still somewhat in this — it's unclear where we were headed — but 2020 was so restrictive and she was so separated from her friends.
他们说：“我们不会用手机进行这种互动。”尤其是在之后，我意识到我们仍然处于困境中——目前还不清楚我们要去往何处——但 2020 年的限制如此之多，她与朋友们的距离如此之远。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Now it's, "Let's really focus on being together and not bring in all these other elements from our phones." That brings me great hope for that generation.
现在是，“让我们真正专注于在一起，而不是从我们的手机中引入所有其他元素。”这给我那一代人带来了很大的希望。
Who knows, maybe they'll run off and study baboons.
谁知道呢，也许他们会跑去研究狒狒。
We need more field researchers.
我们需要更多的实地研究人员。
Along the lines of choice, I'd like to shift gears slightly and talk about free will, about our ability to make choices at all.
沿着选择的思路，我想稍微换个话题，谈谈自由意志，谈谈我们做出选择的能力。
Robert Sapolsky:
罗伯特·萨波尔斯基：
Well, my persona, way out in left field inflammatory stance is I don't think we have a shred of free will.
好吧，我的角色，左场煽动性立场的出路是我不认为我们有一丝自由意志。
Despite 95% of philosophers, and I think probably the majority of neuroscientists, saying that we have free will in at least some circumstances, I don't think there's any at all.
尽管 95% 的哲学家（我想可能是大多数神经科学家）都说我们至少在某些情况下拥有自由意志，但我认为根本不存在自由意志。
The reason for this is you do something: you behave, you make a choice, whatever.
原因是你做了一些事情：你表现得好，你做出了选择，等等。
To understand why you did that, where did that intention come from?
要了解你为什么这样做，这个意图从何而来？
Robert Sapolsky:
罗伯特·萨波尔斯基：
Part of it was due to the sensory environment you were in the previous minute.
部分原因在于你前一分钟所处的感官环境。
Some of it is from the hormone levels in your bloodstream that morning.
其中一些来自当天早上血液中的激素水平。
Some of it is from whether you had a wonderful or stressful last three months and what sort of neuroplasticity happened.
其中一些来自于你过去三个月是否过得愉快或有压力，以及发生了什么样的神经可塑性。
Part of it is what hormone levels you were exposed to as a fetus.
部分原因在于您在胎儿时期所接触的激素水平。
Part of it is what culture your ancestors came up with, and thus how you were parented when you were a kid.
部分原因在于你的祖先创造了什么样的文化，以及你小时候是如何被养育的。
Robert Sapolsky:
罗伯特·萨波尔斯基：
All of those are in there, and you can't understand where behavior is coming from without incorporating all of those.
所有这些都在那里，如果不将所有这些结合起来，您就无法理解行为的来源。
At that point, not only are there all of these relevant factors, but they're ultimately all one factor.
到那时，不仅存在所有这些相关因素，而且它们最终都是一个因素。
If you're talking about what evolution has to do with your behavior, by definition you're also talking about genetics.
如果你在谈论进化与你的行为有何关系，那么根据定义，你也在谈论遗传学。
If you're talking about what your genes have to do with behavior, by definition you're talking about how your brain was constructed or what proteins are coded for.
如果你谈论的是你的基因与行为的关系，那么根据定义，你谈论的是你的大脑是如何构造的或者蛋白质是如何编码的。
Robert Sapolsky:
罗伯特·萨波尔斯基：
If you're talking about your mood disorder now you're talking about the sense of efficacy you were getting as a five-year-old.
如果你现在谈论的是你的情绪障碍，那么你谈论的是你五岁时获得的效能感。
They're all intertwined.
它们都是交织在一起的。
And when you look at all those influences, basically the challenge is show me a neuron that just caused that behavior, or show me a network of neurons that just caused that behavior, and show me that nothing about what they just did was influenced by anything from the sensory environment one second ago to the evolution of your species.
当你观察所有这些影响时，基本上的挑战是向我展示一个刚刚引起该行为的神经元，或者向我展示刚刚引起该行为的神经元网络，并向我展示他们刚刚所做的一切都没有受到从一秒钟前的感觉环境到你们物种的进化的任何影响。
Robert Sapolsky:
罗伯特·萨波尔斯基：
There's no space in there to fit in a free will concept that winds up being in your brain, but not of your brain.
那里没有空间容纳自由意志的概念，最终它出现在你的大脑中，但又不属于你的大脑。
There's simply no wriggle room for it there.
那里根本没有回旋余地。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I can appreciate that our behaviors and our choices are the consequence of a long line of dominoes that fell prior to that behavior.
我可以理解，我们的行为和选择是在该行为之前倒下的一长串多米诺骨牌的结果。
Is it possible that I can intervene in the domino effect, so to speak?
可以这么说，我是否可以干预多米诺骨牌效应？
In other words, can my recognition of the fact that genes have heritability, there's an epigenome, that there's a hormonal context, there's a historical context.
换句话说，我能否认识到基因具有遗传性，有表观基因组，有荷尔蒙背景，有历史背景。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Can the knowledge of that give me some small, small shard of free will?
这些知识能给我一些很小很小的自由意志碎片吗？
Meaning does it allow me to say, "Okay, I accept that my choices are somewhat predetermined, and yet knowing that gives me some additional layer of control.
这意味着我可以说：“好吧，我承认我的选择在某种程度上是预先确定的，但知道这给了我一些额外的控制层。
Is there any philosophical or biological universe in which that works?
是否存在任何哲学或生物学领域可以做到这一点？
Robert Sapolsky:
罗伯特·萨波尔斯基：
Nah.
不。
All of that can produce the wonderfully positive belief that change can happen.
所有这些都可以产生一种非常积极的信念，即改变会发生。
Even traumatic change, the worst of circumstances, most unlikely people.
即使是创伤性的变化、最糟糕的情况、最不可能的人。
Change can happen, things can change.
改变是可以发生的，事情是可以改变的。
Don't be fatalistic.
不要宿命论。
Don't decide because we're mechanistic biological machines.
不要做决定，因为我们是机械生物机器。
Change can happen, but where people go off the rails is translating that into, we can change ourselves.
改变是可能发生的，但当人们偏离轨道时，我们就可以改变自己。
We don't, we can't because there's no free will.
我们不这样做，我们不能这样做，因为没有自由意志。
Robert Sapolsky:
罗伯特·萨波尔斯基：
However, we can be changed by circumstance.
然而，我们可以因环境而改变。
The point of it is you look at an Aplysia, a sea slug that has learned to retract its gill in response to a shock on its tail; you can do conditioning, Pavlovian conditioning on it, and it is learned, its behavior has been changed by its environment.
重点是你会看到一只海兔，这是一种海蛞蝓，它学会了缩回鳃以应对尾巴受到的震动。你可以对它进行条件作用，巴甫洛夫条件作用，它是习得的，它的行为已经被环境改变了。
You hear news about something like horrifically depressing going on, and refugees in wherever.
你会听到有关正在发生的令人恐惧的令人沮丧的事情以及任何地方的难民的新闻。
Robert Sapolsky:
罗伯特·萨波尔斯基：
As a result, you feel a little bit more helpless and less of a sense of efficacy in the world, and both of your behaviors have been changed.
结果，你对这个世界多了一些无助感和效能感，你的行为方式都发生了改变。
The remarkable thing is it's the exact same neurobiology, the signal transduction pathways that were happening in that sea snail incorporate the exact same kinases and proteases and phosphatases that we do when you're having mammalian fear conditioning, or when you're alert; it's conserved.
值得注意的是，海蜗牛中发生的神经生物学、信号转导通路包含与我们在哺乳动物恐惧条件反射或警觉时完全相同的激酶、蛋白酶和磷酸酶；它是保守的。
It's the exact same thing.
这是完全相同的事情。
Robert Sapolsky:
罗伯特·萨波尔斯基：
It's simply playing out in obviously a much, much fancier domain, and because you have learned that change is possible, despite understanding mechanistically that we can't change ourselves volitionally, but because you understand change is possible, you have just changed the ability of your brain to respond to optimistic stimuli.
它显然只是在一个非常非常奇特的领域上演，因为你已经知道改变是可能的，尽管机械地理解我们不能自愿改变自己，但因为你知道改变是可能的，所以你刚刚改变了你的大脑对乐观刺激做出反应的能力。
You have changed the ability of your brain to now send you in the direction of being exposed to more information that will seem cheerful rather than depressing.
你已经改变了大脑的能力，现在可以让你接触到更多看起来令人愉悦而不是令人沮丧的信息。
Robert Sapolsky:
罗伯特·萨波尔斯基：
"Oh my God, that's amazing.
“天哪，这太神奇了。
What Nelson Mandela and Martin Luther King and all these folks did.
纳尔逊·曼德拉和马丁·路德·金以及所有这些人所做的事情。
Wow, under the most adverse of circumstances they were able to do.
哇，在最不利的情况下他们也能做到。
Maybe I can also.
也许我也可以。
Maybe I can go read more about people like them ...
也许我可以去读更多关于像他们这样的人的文章......
," to get even more data points of change to neurochemistry, so that your responses are different now.
，”以获得更多神经化学变化的数据点，以便您的反应现在有所不同。
You're tilted a little bit more in that direction of feeling like you can make a difference instead of, "It's all damn hopeless."
你会更加倾向于感觉自己可以有所作为，而不是“这一切都该死的绝望”。
Robert Sapolsky:
罗伯特·萨波尔斯基：
Enormous change can happen, but the last thing that could come out of a view of, we are nothing more or less than the sum of our biology and its interactions with environment, is to throw up your hands and say, "Thus, it's no use trying to change anything."
巨大的变化可能会发生，但从我们只不过是我们的生物学及其与环境相互作用的总和这一观点来看，最不可能发生的事情就是举起双手说：“因此，尝试改变任何东西都是没有用的。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We can acknowledge that change is extremely hard to impossible, that circumstances can change, and yet that striving to be better human beings is still a worthwhile endeavor.
我们可以承认，改变是极其困难甚至不可能的，环境可以改变，但努力成为更好的人仍然是一项值得努力的努力。
Do I have that correct?
我说的对吗？
Robert Sapolsky:
罗伯特·萨波尔斯基：
Absolutely, because simply the knowledge, either from experience or making it to the end of the right neurobiology class, has taught you that change can happen within a framework of a mechanistic neurobiology, you are now more open to being made optimistic by the good news in the world around you.
绝对是这样，因为无论是从经验还是从正确的神经生物学课程结束时获得的知识，都告诉你改变可以在机械神经生物学的框架内发生，你现在更愿意对周围世界的好消息感到乐观。
You are more likely to be inspired by this or that.
你更有可能受到这个或那个的启发。
You were more resistant to getting discouraged by bad news, simply because you now understand it's possible.
你更加抗拒坏消息而灰心丧气，只是因为你现在明白这是可能的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
As somebody who spent much of his career working on the hippocampus, I have to assume that you are a believer in neuroplasticity, that neural circuits can change in response to experience.
作为一个将大部分职业生涯都花在海马体上的人，我必须假设你是神经可塑性的信徒，神经回路可以根据经验而改变。
Some of the same so-called top-down mechanisms of prefrontal cortex that we were talking about before can play a role there, that the decision to try and change, and the pursuit of knowledge and the pursuit of experience can shape our circuitry and, therefore, make us different machines, so to speak.
我们之前讨论过的一些所谓的前额叶皮层自上而下的机制也可以在那里发挥作用，即尝试和改变的决定、对知识的追求和对经验的追求可以塑造我们的电路，因此可以说，使我们成为不同的机器。
Robert Sapolsky:
罗伯特·萨波尔斯基：
Yeah.
是的。
And not only can, say, prenatal hormone exposure change the way your brain is being constructed, but learning that prenatal hormone exposure can change the construction of your brain will change your brain right now, and how you think about where your intentions came from.
比如说，产前激素暴露不仅可以改变你大脑的构造方式，而且了解产前激素暴露可以改变你大脑的构造也会改变你现在的大脑，以及你如何思考你的意图来自哪里。
Wow, maybe that had something to do with it.
哇，也许这与它有关。
The knowledge of the knowledge is an effect or an end in and of itself.
知识的知识本身就是一种效果或目的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's such an important and powerful statement to hear.
这是一个非常重要和有力的声明。
I think that many people think that if a tool doesn't involve a pill or a protocol, that it's useless.
我认为很多人认为如果一个工具不涉及药丸或协议，那么它就没用。
Certainly, there are pills and protocols that are very useful in a variety of context for a variety of things.
当然，有些药丸和治疗方案在各种情况下对于各种事情都非常有用。
But the idea that knowledge itself, or as you put it, knowledge of knowledge, is itself a tool, I think is a very important concept for people to embed in their minds.
但是，知识本身，或者正如你所说的，知识的知识，本身就是一种工具，我认为这是人们根深蒂固的一个非常重要的概念。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Listen, I'm so grateful for this discussion and for you raising these topics.
听着，我非常感谢这次讨论以及您提出这些话题。
I think that many people know your work on testosterone, on stress, and we've covered some of that today.
我想很多人都知道您在睾丸激素和压力方面的工作，今天我们已经介绍了其中的一些内容。
The work on free will and this idea that we are hopeless, or that we are in total control, I think I'm realizing in listening to you that neither is true, and that the solution resides in understanding more about free will and lack of it, and also neuroplasticity.
关于自由意志的工作以及我们毫无希望或我们完全控制的想法，我想我在听你们讲话时意识到这两者都不是真的，解决方案在于更多地了解自由意志和缺乏自由意志，以及神经可塑性。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You're working on a book about free will.
你正在写一本关于自由意志的书。
Are you willing to tell us a little bit about that book and where you are in that process?
您愿意告诉我们一些关于这本书的信息以及您在这个过程中的进展吗？
What we can look forward to?
我们可以期待什么？
Robert Sapolsky:
罗伯特·萨波尔斯基：
It's going really slow.
进展真的很慢。
Title is "Determined: A Science of Life Without Free Will." Essentially, the first half of the book is trying to convince a reader, if not that there's no free will, whatsoever, but at least there's a lot less than is normally assumed.
标题是“确定：没有自由意志的生命科学”。从本质上讲，本书的前半部分试图说服读者，即使不是没有自由意志，无论如何，但至少比通常假设的要少得多。
I'm going through all the standard arguments for free will and why that doesn't make sense with 21st-century science.
我将回顾所有关于自由意志的标准论证，以及为什么这对于 21 世纪的科学来说没有意义。
Robert Sapolsky:
罗伯特·萨波尔斯基：
That has led to reading a lot of very frustrating philosophers who basically are willing to admit that stuff is made out of atoms and molecules, and there's a physical reality to the world.
这导致我读了很多非常令人沮丧的哲学家的著作，他们基本上愿意承认物质是由原子和分子组成的，并且世界存在物理现实。
They're not just relying on magic, but that they believe in free will for magical reasons, and where it doesn't make sense.
他们不仅依赖魔法，而且出于魔法原因而相信自由意志，而这在没有意义的地方。
The first half of the book is to hopefully convince people that there's much less free will than we used to think.
本书的前半部分希望让人们相信自由意志比我们以前想象的要少得多。
Robert Sapolsky:
罗伯特·萨波尔斯基：
Then, the second half is this gigantic juncture built around the fact that I haven't thought there's any free will since I was an adolescent.
然后，后半部分是这个巨大的转折点，围绕着这样一个事实：我从青少年时期起就没有想过有任何自由意志。
Despite thinking that way, I still have absolutely no idea how you're supposed to function with that belief.
尽管这样想，我仍然完全不知道你应该如何带着这种信念行事。
How are you supposed to go about everyday life if anything you feel entitled to isn't true?
如果你认为自己有权享受的事情不是真的，你该如何度过日常生活呢？
If any angers and hatreds you feel are justified, if there's no such thing as appropriate blame or punishment or praise or reward?
如果你觉得任何愤怒和仇恨都是合理的，是否没有适当的责备、惩罚、赞扬或奖励之类的东西？
Robert Sapolsky:
罗伯特·萨波尔斯基：
None of it makes any sense, and somebody even compliments you on your haircut and you've been conditioned to say, "Oh, thanks." As if you have something to do, how are we supposed to function with that?
这些都没有任何意义，甚至有人称赞你的发型，而你已经习惯性地说：“哦，谢谢。”如果你有事情要做，我们应该如何处理呢？
The second half is wrestling with that.
下半场正在努力解决这个问题。
What the punchline there is it's going to be incredibly hard, and if you think it's going to be hard to subtract a notion of free will out of making sense of, like, serial murderers, it's going to be a thousand times harder making sense of when somebody says good job to you.
最重要的是，这将是非常困难的，如果你认为在理解连环杀人犯时很难去掉自由意志的概念，那么当有人对你说干得好时，要理解它就会困难一千倍。
Robert Sapolsky:
罗伯特·萨波尔斯基：
It's the exact same on reality of our interpretations, it's going to be incredibly hard.
这与我们的解释的现实完全相同，这将是非常困难的。
Nonetheless, when you look at the history of how we have subtracted the notion of agency out of all sorts of realms of blame, starting with thinking that witches caused hail storms 500 years ago to the notion that psychodynamically screwed up mothers caused schizophrenia.
尽管如此，当你回顾一下我们如何从各种指责领域中剔除代理概念的历史时，从认为女巫在 500 年前引发冰雹风暴的想法，到心理动力学上搞砸的母亲导致精神分裂症的想法。
We've done it.
我们已经做到了。
We've done it endless number of times.
我们已经做过无数次了。
We've been able to subtract out a sense of volition in understanding how the world works around us.
在理解我们周围的世界如何运作时，我们已经能够消除意志感。
Robert Sapolsky:
罗伯特·萨波尔斯基：
We don't have murderers running amok on the street, and society hasn't collapsed into a puddle.
我们没有杀人犯在街上横行，社会也没有崩溃到水坑里。
In fact, it's a more humane society.
事实上，这是一个更加人性化的社会。
So the good news is it's possible, because we've done it repeatedly in the past, but it's going to be hard as hell.
所以好消息是这是可能的，因为我们过去已经多次这样做过，但这将是非常困难的。
It's hard as hell to try to write about that coherently, I'm discovering.
我发现，要连贯地写出这一点是非常困难的。
It's going slowly.
一切进展缓慢。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, I speak for many, many people when I say that we're really excited for the book when it's done, and we will patiently wait, but with great excitement for the book — "Determined," you said is the title, correct?
好吧，当我说我们对这本书完成后感到非常兴奋时，我代表很多很多人，我们会耐心等待，但对这本书充满兴奋——“确定”，你说的是书名，对吗？
Robert Sapolsky:
罗伯特·萨波尔斯基：
Yes.
是的。
"Determined: The Science of Life Without Free Will." Seems like you can't publish a book these days without a subtitle, so that's it.
“决心：没有自由意志的生命科学。”看来现在没有字幕就不能出版一本书了，就这样吧。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Fantastic.
太棒了。
Well, very excited to read the book.
嗯，读这本书很兴奋。
Very grateful to you for this conversation today.
非常感谢您今天的这次谈话。
I learned a ton.
我学到了很多。
Every time you speak, I learn.
每次你说话，我都在学习。
For me, it's really been a pleasure and a delight to interact with you today and over the previous years, I should say, as colleagues.
对我来说，我应该说，作为同事，今天和过去几年与你们互动真的很高兴。
Thank you again, Robert, for everything that you do and all the hard, hard work and thinking that you put into your work, because it's clear that you put a lot of hard work and thinking, and we all benefit as a consequence.
罗伯特，再次感谢你所做的一切，感谢你在工作中付出的所有努力和思考，因为很明显，你付出了很多努力和思考，我们都因此受益。
Robert Sapolsky:
罗伯特·萨波尔斯基：
Thanks and thanks for having me.
谢谢并感谢你邀请我。
This was a blast.
这真是太棒了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thank you for joining me for my conversation with Dr. Robert Sapolsky.
感谢您参加我与罗伯特·萨波尔斯基博士的对话。
If you're enjoying this podcast and learning from it, please subscribe to our YouTube channel.
如果您喜欢这个播客并从中学习，请订阅我们的 YouTube 频道。
In addition, you can leave us comments and suggestions for future episodes and guests in the comment section on YouTube.
此外，您还可以在 YouTube 的评论部分给我们留下对未来剧集和嘉宾的意见和建议。
Please also subscribe on Apple and on Spotify.
另请在 Apple 和 Spotify 上订阅。
On Apple, you have the opportunity to leave us up to a five-star review and a comment.
在 Apple 上，您有机会给我们留下五星级的评价和评论。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In addition, please check out the sponsors that we mentioned at the beginning of this podcast.
此外，请查看我们在本播客开头提到的赞助商。
That's a terrific way to support us.
这是支持我们的好方法。
For those of you that are interested in supporting research on stress, on sleep, and how to better access sleep and combat stress, you can do that by supporting the research being done on those topics in my laboratory.
对于那些有兴趣支持关于压力、睡眠以及如何更好地获得睡眠和对抗压力的研究的人，您可以通过支持我实验室中针对这些主题进行的研究来实现这一目标。
You can go to hubermanlab.stanford.edu, and there you'll see a tab entitled Support Research in the Huberman Lab.
您可以访问 hubermanlab.stanford.edu，在那里您会看到一个标题为“支持 Huberman 实验室研究”的选项卡。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's for work at the Huberman Lab at Stanford, not the Huberman Lab podcast.
这是斯坦福大学胡伯曼实验室的工作，而不是胡伯曼实验室播客。
There's a "make a donation" tab where you can make a tax-deductible donation.
有一个“捐款”选项卡，您可以在其中进行免税捐款。
If you're not already following the Huberman Lab on Instagram, please check out Huberman Lab on Instagram and on Twitter.
如果您尚未在 Instagram 上关注 Huberman Lab，请在 Instagram 和 Twitter 上查看 Huberman Lab。
On both those channels I post information about science and science-related tools, anywhere from one to five minutes.
在这两个频道上，我都会发布有关科学和科学相关工具的信息，时间从一到五分钟不等。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Some of that information overlaps with the podcast, but a lot of it is unique and different from the information on this podcast.
其中一些信息与播客重叠，但其中很多信息是独特的，并且与该播客上的信息不同。
Last but not least, thank you for your interest in science.
最后但并非最不重要的一点是，感谢您对科学的兴趣。