Dr. Robert Malenka: How Your Brain's Reward Circuits Drive Your Choices

This transcript version is not in its final form and will be updated.

该文字记录版本并非最终版本，将会更新。

Andrew Huberman: Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.

Andrew Huberman：欢迎来到 Huberman 实验室播客，我们在这里讨论科学和基于科学的日常生活工具。

I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of Neurobiology and Ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.

我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。

Today, my guest is Dr. Robert Malenka.

今天，我的嘉宾是罗伯特·马伦卡博士。

Dr. Robert Malenka is a professor of Psychiatry and Behavioral Sciences at Stanford University School of Medicine.

罗伯特·马伦卡博士是斯坦福大学医学院精神病学和行为科学教授。

He is both medical doctor, an MD, and a researcher, a PhD.

他既是医生（MD），又是研究员（PhD）。

His laboratory is famous for having discovered some of the key components allowing neuroplasticity, that is, the nervous system's ability to change in response to experience.

他的实验室因发现了一些允许神经可塑性的关键成分而闻名，即神经系统根据经验而变化的能力。

In addition, Dr. Malanka's research is considered central to the textbook knowledge about how reward systems in the brain are organized and function.

此外，马兰卡博士的研究被认为是关于大脑奖励系统如何组织和运作的教科书知识的核心。

Indeed, Dr. Melanca's research over the last ten or 15 years has merged what was once two disparate fields, the first being the study of neuroplasticity, again, the nervous system's ability to change in response to experience, and the other field being the field of dopamine as it relates to pleasure and addiction.

事实上，Melanca 博士在过去 10 到 15 年的研究已经融合了曾经是两个不同领域的领域，第一个领域是神经可塑性的研究，神经系统根据经验而变化的能力，另一个领域是多巴胺领域，因为它与快乐和成瘾有关。

His laboratory has shown, for instance, that when we seek out particular forms of pleasure, regardless of whether or not they are healthy for us, that changes the way that our reward circuitry works and actually changes the way that dopamine is released and how it impacts the brain.

例如，他的实验室表明，当我们寻求特定形式的快乐时，无论它们是否对我们健康有益，都会改变我们奖励回路的工作方式，并实际上改变多巴胺的释放方式及其对大脑的影响。

And his work has also informed how we seek out healthy pleasures, including healthy food and social connection.

他的工作还告诉我们如何寻求健康的乐趣，包括健康食品和社交联系。

Today's discussion explores all of these topics, and by the end of today's discussion, you will have a rich understanding of how neurochemicals like dopamine and serotonin work in parallel, to reinforce that is, to increase the probability that we will engage in certain types of thinking and behaviors.

今天的讨论探讨了所有这些主题，在今天的讨论结束时，您将对多巴胺和血清素等神经化学物质如何并行工作有一个丰富的了解，以加强这一点，即增加我们从事某些类型的思维和行为的可能性。

So if you are somebody interested in neuroplasticity, that is, how the nervous system can change in response to experience and or you are interested in reward systems, what motivates us, and what we are likely to pursue in the future, given our choices of past, and if you are interested in things like social connection and empathy, or lack thereof, today's discussion encompasses all of those topics.

因此，如果您对神经可塑性感兴趣，即神经系统如何根据经验而变化，或者您对奖励系统感兴趣，我们的动机是什么，以及考虑到我们过去的选择，我们未来可能会追求什么，如果您对社会联系和同理心或缺乏这些感兴趣，那么今天的讨论涵盖了所有这些主题。

It is worth mentioning that Dr. Malenka is a true luminary in all of the fields I just mentioned, as well as several other fields.

值得一提的是，马伦卡博士在我刚才提到的所有领域以及其他几个领域都是真正的杰出人物。

In fact, when you look out on the landscape of modern neuroscience, what you'll discover is that a very large percentage of the top laboratories studying neuroplasticity and reward systems and so on, all stemmed from having trained in Dr. Malenka's laboratory.

事实上，当你放眼现代神经科学的格局时，你会发现，研究神经可塑性、奖励系统等的顶尖实验室，有很大一部分都源于在马伦卡博士实验室的训练。

So it's a real honor and pleasure to be able to host him today, and I'm sure that our discussion is going to greatly enrich the way that you think about brain function, neuroplasticity, and reward.

因此，今天能够接待他真是一种荣幸和高兴，我相信我们的讨论将极大地丰富您对大脑功能、神经可塑性和奖励的思考方式。

Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.

在开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。

It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science related tools to the general public.

然而，我的愿望和努力的一部分是向公众提供有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本消费者信息。

In keeping with that theme, I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast.

为了与这个主题保持一致，我要感谢今天播客的赞助商。

Our first sponsor is ROKA.

我们的第一个赞助商是ROKA。

ROKA makes eyeglasses and sunglasses that are of the absolute highest quality.

ROKA 生产绝对最高品质的眼镜和太阳镜。

The company was founded by two all American swimmers from Stanford, and everything about ROKA eyeglasses and sunglasses were designed with performance in mind.

该公司由两位来自斯坦福大学的美国游泳运动员创立，ROKA 眼镜和太阳镜的所有设计均以性能为考量。

I've spent a lifetime working on the biology of the visual system, and I can tell you that your visual system has to contend with an enormous number of challenges in order for you to be able to see clearly.

我一生都在研究视觉系统的生物学，我可以告诉你，你的视觉系统必须应对大量的挑战，才能让你看得清楚。

ROKA understands those challenges and the biology of the visual system such that they've designed sunglasses and eyeglasses that always allow you to see with crystal clarity.

ROKA 了解这些挑战和视觉系统的生物学原理，因此他们设计的太阳镜和眼镜始终能让您清晰地看到东西。

Now, initially, ROKA eyeglasses and sunglasses were designed for sports performance, and as a consequence, all of their glasses are designed to be very lightweight and to not slip off your face if you get sweaty.

现在，最初，ROKA 眼镜和太阳镜是为运动表现而设计的，因此，他们所有的眼镜都设计得非常轻巧，并且在出汗时不会从脸上滑落。

However, the design of the glasses includes some that are specifically for sport and others whose aesthetic really allows you to use them for sport, as well as out to dinner or to work, etc. And that's how I use them.

然而，眼镜的设计包括一些专门用于运动的眼镜和另一些其美学确实允许您将它们用于运动、外出就餐或工作等的眼镜。这就是我使用它们的方式。

If you'd like to try ROKA eyeglasses and sunglasses, you can go to roka.com, that's R-O-K-A.com, and enter the code HUBERMAN to save 20% off your first order.

如果您想尝试 ROKA 眼镜和太阳镜，可以访问 roka.com，即 R-O-K-A.com，并输入代码 HUBERMAN，首次订单可享受 20% 折扣。

Again, that's roka.com, and enter the code HUBERMAN at checkout.

同样，这是 roka.com，并在结帐时输入代码 HUBERMAN。

Today's episode is also brought to us by Levels.

今天的节目也是Levels给我们带来的。

Levels is a program that lets you see how different foods and behaviors affect your health by giving you real time feedback on your diet using a continuous glucose monitor.

Levels 是一个程序，通过使用连续血糖监测仪为您提供有关饮食的实时反馈，让您了解不同的食物和行为如何影响您的健康。

One of the most important factors impacting your immediate and long term health is the way that your body manages its blood glucose, or sometimes referred to as blood sugar levels, to maintain energy and focus.

影响您近期和长期健康的最重要因素之一是您的身体管理血糖（有时称为血糖水平）以保持精力和注意力的方式。

Throughout the day, you want to keep your blood glucose steady without big spikes or dips.

一整天，您希望保持血糖稳定，不要出现大幅上升或下降。

Using Levels, you can monitor how different types of foods and different food combinations, as well as food timing and things like exercise, combine to impact your blood glucose levels.

使用“水平”，您可以监测不同类型的食物和不同的食物组合，以及进食时间和运动等因素如何结合起来影响您的血糖水平。

I started using Levels a little over a year ago, and it gave me a lot of insight into how specific foods were spiking my blood sugar and then leaving me feeling tired for several hours afterwards, as well as how the spacing of exercise and my meals was impacting my overall energy.

我一年多前开始使用 Levels，它让我深入了解特定食物如何使我的血糖升高，然后让我在几个小时后感到疲倦，以及运动和进餐的间隔如何影响我的整体能量。

And in doing so, it really allowed me to optimize how I eat, what I eat, when I exercise, and so on, such that my blood glucose levels and energy levels are stable throughout the day.

这样做确实让我能够优化我的饮食方式、吃什么、锻炼时间等等，从而使我的血糖水平和能量水平全天保持稳定。

If you're interested in learning more about Levels and trying a continuous glucose monitor yourself, go to levels.link/huberman right now, Levels is offering an additional two free months of membership.

如果您有兴趣了解有关 Levels 的更多信息并亲自尝试连续血糖监测仪，请立即访问levels.link/huberman，Levels 提供额外两个月的免费会员资格。

Again, that's levels.link L-I-N-K /huberman to get two free months of membership.

再次强调，这就是levels.link L-I-N-K /huberman 以获得两个月的免费会员资格。

And now for my discussion with Dr. Robert Malenka.

现在我与罗伯特·马伦卡博士进行了讨论。

Dr. Melanka, Rob, welcome.

梅兰卡博士，罗布，欢迎。

Robert Malenka: Yeah, thanks for having me.

罗伯特·马伦卡：是的，谢谢你邀请我。

Andrew Huberman: Delighted to have you here, both for sake of your medical knowledge and training as a psychiatrist and of course as a luminary in the field of neuroplasticity, dopamine and reward systems, social systems, your knowledge of autism and social interactions, a newer interest in, or perhaps old interest in psychedelics and what they're doing and potential for mental health.

安德鲁·休伯曼：很高兴您来到这里，不仅是为了您的医学知识和作为精神病学家的培训，当然也是为了作为神经可塑性、多巴胺和奖励系统、社会系统领域的杰出人物，您对自闭症和社会互动的了解，对致幻剂的新兴趣或旧兴趣及其对心理健康的作用和潜力。

There are just so many things that you've done in this field.

你在这个领域做了很多事情。

I've been a long, longtime fan of your work.

我一直是你作品的粉丝。

Since your days as an assistant professor, I've tracked your career.

自从你担任助理教授以来，我就一直在追踪你的职业生涯。

I've learned a tremendous amount from you by observing you and from being your colleague.

通过观察你并成为你的同事，我从你身上学到了很多东西。

So really delighted to have you here.

非常高兴您来到这里。

Robert Malenka: You're making me blush, and I don't blush easily.

罗伯特·马伦卡：你让我脸红，而我不容易脸红。

Andrew Huberman: Well, it's all true.

安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯，这都是真的。

Robert Malenka: Thank you.

罗伯特·马伦卡：谢谢。

Andrew Huberman: And I will say as well, you've also trained an enormous number of incredible scientists.

安德鲁·休伯曼：我还要说，你们还培养了大批令人难以置信的科学家。

Karl Deisseroth, the Karl Deisseroth, Anna Lemke always speaks incredibly highly of you as a mentor and somebody she's learned a tremendous amount from and pretty much anyone that's worked on neuroplasticity, on dopamine and reward systems, addiction, and now in the fields of autism and soon psychedelics as well, references you often, and you've been mentioned many times before on this podcast, if not by name, by work.

Karl Deisseroth，那个 Karl Deisseroth，Anna Lemke 总是对你给予极高的评价，认为你是一位导师，她从她那里学到了很多东西，几乎所有从事神经可塑性、多巴胺和奖励系统、成瘾研究的人，现在在自闭症和迷幻药领域也经常提到你，而且之前在这个播客上也多次提到过你，如果不是指名道姓的话，那就是工作。

So again, thank you for being here.

再次感谢您来到这里。

I'd love to kick off the conversation by talking about something which is very fundamental to everything we're going to talk about, but certainly fundamental to our daily lives, which is dopamine.

我很乐意通过谈论对我们要谈论的一切都非常重要的东西来开始对话，而且对我们的日常生活也很重要，这就是多巴胺。

We hear so much about dopamine.

我们听说过很多关于多巴胺的事情。

People talk about dopamine hits.

人们谈论多巴胺的刺激。

People think about dopamine as pleasure, dopamine reward for the novice.

人们认为多巴胺是一种快乐，多巴胺对新手的奖励。

How would you frame the dopamine system?

您如何构建多巴胺系统？

I mean, it does a bunch of different things in different areas of the brain and body, but to you what does dopamine represent as its major function in the brain?

我的意思是，它在大脑和身体的不同区域做很多不同的事情，但对你来说，多巴胺在大脑中的主要功能代表什么？

And could you give us a kind of general contour of the neural circuits that allow this chemical to more or less put value on our experiences?

您能否为我们提供一种神经回路的总体轮廓，使这种化学物质或多或少地对我们的经历产生价值？

Robert Malenka: Yeah, that's very well put.

罗伯特·马伦卡：是的，说得很好。

As you point out, dopamine is one of the major, what we term neuromodulators in the brain, a chemical signaling messenger that the brain uses to mediate a complex array of actions.

正如您所指出的，多巴胺是大脑中主要的神经调节剂之一，它是大脑用来介导一系列复杂行为的化学信号信使。

Its best well known function is in what we call the brain's reward circuitry.

它最著名的功能是我们所说的大脑奖励电路。

So this is a circuit in the brain.

这是大脑中的一个回路。

And when we use the term circuit, what we really mean is one part of the brain communicating with another part of the brain.

当我们使用“电路”这个术语时，我们真正的意思是大脑的一部分与大脑的另一部分进行通信。

Because the brain is this very complex, it's the most complex organ in the universe, with lots of different nerve cells talking to each other simultaneously.

因为大脑非常复杂，所以它是宇宙中最复杂的器官，有许多不同的神经细胞同时相互通信。

And as neuroscientists, we try to parse what different brain areas are doing and what different neuromodulators might be doing, and dopamine was discovered, oh, I should know this, many decades ago.

作为神经科学家，我们试图解析不同的大脑区域在做什么以及不同的神经调节剂可能在做什么，多巴胺被发现了，哦，我应该知道这一点，几十年前。

And it's, as I said, the major chemical messenger molecule in the so called brain's reward circuitry.

正如我所说，它是所谓的大脑奖励回路中的主要化学信使分子。

And when you're talking about, so what is the brain's reward circuitry?

当你谈论的时候，大脑的奖励回路是什么？

This is a part of the brain that tells us something is reinforcing in our environment.

这是大脑的一部分，告诉我们环境中的某些东西正在强化。

Some stimuli is "rewarding," makes us feel better or good, although that's a gross oversimplification.

有些刺激是“有益的”，让我们感觉更好或良好，尽管这过于简单化了。

Before getting into the details of dopamine and its function in the reward circuitry, I think it's useful to talk about, why do we need a reward circuitry?

在详细介绍多巴胺及其在奖励电路中的功能之前，我认为有必要讨论一下，为什么我们需要奖励电路？

Why do we need something in our brain that tells us, this feels good or this feels bad, and it goes back to evolution.

为什么我们的大脑中需要一些东西来告诉我们，这感觉很好或这感觉很糟糕，这可以追溯到进化论。

I am a biological scientist.

我是一名生物科学家。

That means I believe in evolution.

这意味着我相信进化论。

And if you think about the evolution of our species, everything is driven by developing mechanisms that increase our survival.

如果你想想我们物种的进化，一切都是由增加我们生存的机制驱动的。

And it's really useful, you need something in your nervous system that tells you some stimuli in your environment is important for your survival, or some stimulus in your environment is dangerous.

它确实很有用，你的神经系统中需要某种东西来告诉你环境中的某些刺激对你的生存很重要，或者环境中的某些刺激是危险的。

So it's not magic that sugary, high fat laden foods are highly reinforcing and rewarding.

因此，含糖、高脂肪的食物具有高度强化作用和有益效果，这并不神奇。

It's not an accident.

这不是意外。

There has to be a mechanism in the brain that tells us that.

大脑中一定有一种机制可以告诉我们这一点。

It's not an accident, that most of the time, for most of us, a sexual experience is pretty reinforcing, is pretty rewarding.

这并非偶然，大多数时候，对于我们大多数人来说，性体验是相当强化的，也是相当有益的。

It's not an accident that warmth feels really good when you're cold.

当你感到寒冷时，温暖的感觉真的很好，这并非偶然。

That water tastes much better when you're really thirsty.

当你真的很渴的时候，水的味道会好得多。

What evolved is a mechanism to tell our nervous systems and tell our brains, this feels pretty good, I should repeat the behavior that leads to that rewarding experience.

进化出来的是一种告诉我们的神经系统和大脑的机制，这感觉很好，我应该重复导致这种有益体验的行为。

And similarly, it's really important when there is an event in your life that's highly dangerous for some mechanism in your brain to say, whoa, I don't want to go back to where that lion was.

同样，当你的生活中发生一件对你大脑中的某些机制来说非常危险的事件时，你会说，哇，我不想回到那只狮子所在的地方，这一点也非常重要。

And we can get into that.

我们可以深入探讨这一点。

So this was a long winded way of saying what the reward circuitry tells us is this event, this stimulus.

所以这是一种冗长的方式来表达奖励电路告诉我们的是这个事件，这个刺激。

It could be an external stimulus, like I said, a Krispy Kreme donut, which I happen to love.

这可能是一种外部刺激，就像我说的，一个我碰巧喜欢的 Krispy Kreme 甜甜圈。

And I have to be very disciplined, so I don't eat too many of them.

而且我必须非常自律，所以我不会吃太多。

It could be a drug of abuse, and maybe we'll talk about that a little bit.

这可能是一种滥用药物，也许我们会稍微讨论一下。

All of these stimuli seem to activate and cause the release of dopamine in this brain's reward circuitry.

所有这些刺激似乎都会激活大脑的奖励回路并导致多巴胺的释放。

So now we need to get into a little bit of detail.

所以现在我们需要了解一些细节。

Neuroscientists use these very unfriendly terms to describe different brain regions.

神经科学家使用这些非常不友好的术语来描述不同的大脑区域。

So the home of dopamine cells, or brain cells, are called neurons.

因此，多巴胺细胞或脑细胞的所在地被称为神经元。

So the home of dopamine neurons are in a part of the brain, sort of what we call the lower midbrain.

因此，多巴胺神经元的所在地位于大脑的一部分，即我们所说的下中脑。

The dopamine neurons that are part of the reward circuitry are found in this area called the ventral tegmental area, which, I'm sorry to have to use such technical jargon, we call it the VTA.

多巴胺神经元是奖励回路的一部分，位于腹侧被盖区，很抱歉不得不使用这样的技术术语，我们称之为 VTA。

That's the acronym.

这就是缩写。

Andrew Huberman: I think the roof of the midbrain is the tectum, it means roof, and the base of the midbrain, it means floor, which is the tegmentum.

Andrew Huberman：我认为中脑的顶部是顶盖，它的意思是屋顶，而中脑的底部，它的意思是地板，也就是被盖。

So there's a rationale, but it doesn't help much at all to know the names.

所以这是有道理的，但知道名字并没有多大帮助。

Robert Malenka: And, in fact, you are absolutely correct, and I always forget that.

罗伯特·马伦卡：事实上，你是绝对正确的，但我总是忘记这一点。

So thank you for pointing that out.

谢谢你指出这一点。

Andrew Huberman: It's a side effect of teaching neuronatomy.

Andrew Huberman：这是神经解剖学教学的副作用。

Robert Malenka: Which I once did back in the early 80s, but I've forgotten everything I taught.

罗伯特·马伦卡：我在 80 年代初曾经这样做过，但我已经忘记了我教过的所有内容。

Anyhow, so these dopamine neurons, and we can talk about other types of dopamine neurons, they send messages, what we call projections, using telegraph wires that we call axons.

无论如何，这些多巴胺神经元，我们可以谈论其他类型的多巴胺神经元，它们使用我们称为轴突的电报线发送信息，我们称之为投射。

They send projections to many different brain regions, the key one in the brain's reward circuitry being an area, again, with a very complicated name called the nucleus accumbens, and maybe Andrew.

它们向许多不同的大脑区域发送投射，其中大脑奖励回路中的关键区域是一个区域，同样有一个非常复杂的名称，称为伏核，也许是安德鲁。

You know, I actually don't know how that name evolved, the nucleus accumbens.

你知道，我实际上不知道伏隔核这个名字是如何演变的。

And I'm sure I should know, because I've been studying it for 30 years, but I have never looked up the genesis of that name.

我确信我应该知道，因为我已经研究它30年了，但我从未查过这个名字的起源。

Andrew Huberman: Well, the fortunate thing about this podcast is it's both on audio platforms like Spotify and Apple, but also on YouTube.

Andrew Huberman：嗯，这个播客的幸运之处在于它既可以在 Spotify 和 Apple 等音频平台上使用，也可以在 YouTube 上使用。

And so now we can be absolutely sure that somebody has put it into the YouTube comments underneath this episode, and therefore everyone will learn, including us.

因此，现在我们可以绝对确定有人已将其放入本集下方的 YouTube 评论中，因此每个人都会学习，包括我们。

Robert Malenka: So I don't know the origins of the word nucleus, and it's a gross oversimplification, but it's the activity of these dopamine neurons in the ventral tegmental area that then cause the release of this powerful neuromodulator, dopamine, in the nucleus accumbens, which is part of another brain structure with a tough to remember name called the ventral striatum.

罗伯特·马伦卡：所以我不知道“核”这个词的起源，这是一种过于简单化的说法，但正是腹侧被盖区的这些多巴胺神经元的活动导致了伏隔核中这种强大的神经调节剂多巴胺的释放，伏隔核是另一个大脑结构的一部分，它的名字很难记住，称为腹侧纹状体。

And then magic happens, and when I say magic happens, even though we've been studying how dopamine modifies the properties of cells in this nucleus accumbens, the truth is, we don't have a deep mechanistic understanding why, when dopamine is released in the nucleus accumbens, we experience that.

然后奇迹发生了，当我说奇迹发生时，尽管我们一直在研究多巴胺如何改变伏隔核中细胞的特性，但事实是，我们并没有深入的机制理解为什么当多巴胺在伏隔核中释放时，我们会经历这种情况。

As I'm being very cautious here, the simple way would be to say as highly rewarding, but it's a little more complicated than that.

由于我在这里非常谨慎，简单的方法就是说回报很高，但实际情况比这要复杂一些。

What it tells us is that there's something really important happening in our environment.

它告诉我们，我们的环境中正在发生一些非常重要的事情。

Andrew Huberman: So could we say that it cues the arousal system?

Andrew Huberman：那么我们可以说它暗示了唤醒系统吗？

Robert Malenka: It gets the arousal system going.

罗伯特·马伦卡：它让唤醒系统运转起来。

There're close ties to our memory systems, which hopefully, intuitively, makes some sense if something really important is happening in your environment.

它与我们的记忆系统有着密切的联系，如果你的环境中发生了一些真正重要的事情，那么从直觉上来说，它是有意义的。

Because, again, I think what's helpful for your audience is to always be thinking about how these systems evolved from an evolutionary perspective.

因为，我认为对观众有帮助的是始终从进化的角度思考这些系统是如何演变的。

And if dopamine is signaling something really important and salient is happening in your environment, you want to remember that it could be a highly rewarding experience, like a source of food for me.

如果多巴胺发出信号，表明您的环境中正在发生一些非常重要且显着的事情，那么您要记住，这可能是一次非常有价值的经历，就像我的食物来源一样。

I like all donuts, so I don't want to emphasize any one manufacturer of one donut versus the other.

我喜欢所有的甜甜圈，所以我不想强调任何一个甜甜圈制造商与另一个甜甜圈的制造商。

I like sugar laden, fat laden foods.

我喜欢高糖、高脂肪的食物。

That's why I never eat them, because I like them so much.

这就是为什么我从不吃它们，因为我非常喜欢它们。

And I use that as an example, but because that was an important event for my survival.

我用它作为例子，但因为那是我生存的重要事件。

This reward circuitry, yes, it stimulates my arousal system.

这个奖励电路，是的，它刺激了我的唤醒系统。

It gets me to pay attention.

它让我集中注意力。

It also has very close ties to memory systems.

它还与记忆系统有着非常密切的联系。

And to go off on a little bit of a tangent, I think the one, I don't want to say it's a mistake, I think perhaps somewhat oversimplification of how people conceptualize dopamine's role in the brain is, even though it's a major, important role, is for it to be active and released during highly reinforcing experiences like sex, like really good food, like drugs of abuse.

说得有点离题，我不想说这是一个错误，我认为人们对多巴胺在大脑中的作用的概念可能有点过于简单化了，尽管它是一个主要的、重要的作用，但它在高度强化的经历中活跃并释放，比如性、真正的美味食物、滥用药物。

It also can get activated, subdivisions of this system, during painful stimuli and during aversive stimuli, which, again, are really important for you to be aware of, to say, oh my God, that's really bad for me.

它也可以被激活，这个系统的细分，在痛苦的刺激和厌恶的刺激期间，这对你来说非常重要，要意识到，说，天哪，这对我来说真的很糟糕。

So the dopamine system, this reward circuitry and its subcomponents that maybe, perhaps signal more salience or aversion in the environment, are closely tied to arousal systems and memory systems.

因此，多巴胺系统、这种奖励电路及其子组件可能会发出环境中更显着或厌恶的信号，与唤醒系统和记忆系统密切相关。

Again, hopefully, for somewhat obvious reasons, you want to remember powerfully reinforcing events in your life, as well as powerfully emotionally or physically painful events in your life.

再次，希望出于某种明显的原因，您想要记住生活中强烈强化的事件，以及生活中强烈的情感或身体痛苦的事件。

So I hope I answered your question to a modest degree.

所以我希望我能适度回答你的问题。

Andrew Huberman: No, far better than a modest degree.

安德鲁·休伯曼：不，比普通学位要好得多。

That's an excellent description of the dopamine system from a true expert.

这是一位真正的专家对多巴胺系统的精彩描述。

And the question I have is about some of the context and nuance of the system, but in sort of real world terms, how should I think about this?

我的问题是关于系统的一些背景和细微差别，但从现实世界的角度来看，我应该如何考虑这个问题？

Even in my training as a neuroscientist, I know neurons can be a little active, a lot active, everything in between.

即使在我作为神经科学家的训练中，我也知道神经元可以有点活跃，非常活跃，介于两者之间。

They can be active over long periods of time or short periods of time.

它们可以长时间或短时间内活跃。

But let's use the example of the donut.

但让我们以甜甜圈为例。

I like a glazed old fashioned donut.

我喜欢釉面老式甜甜圈。

I actually don't have a craving for sweet thIngs, but donuts is an exception.

其实我不太想吃甜食，但甜甜圈是个例外。

I like the glazed old fashioned donut, but if I were to see just a little piece of a glazed old fashioned donut versus a full glazed old fashioned donut, could I expect that more dopamine is released to the anticipation of the complete donut?

我喜欢釉面老式甜甜圈，但如果我只看到一小块釉面老式甜甜圈与全釉面老式甜甜圈，我是否可以期望释放更多的多巴胺来期待完整的甜甜圈？

And then the other question is, how does context influence the dopamine system?

那么另一个问题是，情境如何影响多巴胺系统？

For instance, if I'm very full, a glazed old fashioned donut might be aversive to me.

例如，如果我吃得很饱，我可能会讨厌釉面老式甜甜圈。

Whereas if I'm just a little bit hungry, or if I'm actually more on a schedule of rewarding myself for abstaining from sweet, fatty foods, then abstaining from the food might be its own form of reward.

然而，如果我只是有点饿，或者如果我实际上更多的是奖励自己戒掉甜食、高脂肪食物，那么戒掉食物可能就是它本身的奖励形式。

Robert Malenka: Yeah.

罗伯特·马伦卡：是的。

Andrew Huberman: And so, to me, the dopamine system seems incredibly simple and yet incredibly prone to immediate context and the kinds of nuance that we're constantly juggling.

安德鲁·休伯曼：所以，对我来说，多巴胺系统似乎非常简单，但却非常容易受到直接背景和我们不断处理的细微差别的影响。

I'll interrupt myself to say that we're constantly juggling a bunch of different reward contingencies.

我会打断自己说，我们一直在处理一堆不同的奖励意外事件。

We want to have good health metrics and maybe have a certain aesthetic qualities to our body, but we also want the doughnut.

我们希望拥有良好的健康指标，也许我们的身体具有一定的审美品质，但我们也想要甜甜圈。

And so how does a system as simple as one neuromodulator system and the VTA to nucleus accumbens, and with some connections to the memory area, how does it balance all of that information in real time?

那么，像一个神经调节系统和伏隔核的 VTA 这样简单的系统，以及与记忆区域的一些连接，它如何实时平衡所有这些信息呢？

To me, that's just, like, staggeringly complex, but also incredibly interesting.

对我来说，这非常复杂，但也非常有趣。

Robert Malenka: I think you,,, beautifully put, very eloquent description.

罗伯特·马伦卡：我认为你的描述非常优美、雄辩。

You just said it.

你刚才说了。

It's staggeringly simple, simultaneously staggeringly complex.

它极其简单，同时又极其复杂。

And you asked several different questions.

你问了几个不同的问题。

So context makes an enormous importance.

因此，背景非常重要。

And that's one of the reasons I became interested in the dopamine reward circuitry is, as you know, as a colleague in the academic neuroscience world, but your listeners probably don't, I started out my career studying very basic mechanisms of plasticity.

这就是我对多巴胺奖励回路感兴趣的原因之一，正如你所知，作为学术神经科学界的同事，但你的听众可能不会，我的职业生涯始于研究非常基本的可塑性机制。

How does the brain modify itself?

大脑如何自我改造？

And what makes the brain different than the computer hardware is the physical connections in the brain are constantly changing the strength of the communication.

大脑与计算机硬件的不同之处在于大脑中的物理连接不断改变通信的强度。

Similarly for the dopamine reward circuitry, it's highly plastic and it's highly contextually dependent.

与多巴胺奖励回路类似，它具有高度可塑性并且高度依赖于环境。

And so you gave the example of donuts and feeding, and I'll answer your question about the cues.

所以你举了甜甜圈和喂食的例子，我将回答你关于线索的问题。

Yes, I used to give the example of Thanksgiving, so let me give that example.

是的，我曾经举过感恩节的例子，所以让我举个例子。

In the morning of Thanksgiving, all, for most of us in the United States, the morning of Thanksgiving, if you're at home visiting your parents, the smells of the apple pie, the smells of the turkey cooking are highly repetitive, highly reinforcing.

在感恩节的早晨，对于我们大多数美国人来说，感恩节的早晨，如果你在家探望父母，苹果派的气味、火鸡烹饪的气味是高度重复、高度强化的。

You're anticipating that fun event.

您正在期待那个有趣的活动。

You're anticipating Uncle Joe coming to visit you for Thanksgiving.

你期待着乔叔叔来拜访你过感恩节。

And that's all because these cues, the smells, the anticipation of Uncle Joe, your previous experiences, are part of your memory system, sort of talking to, in a simple way, your reward circuitry.

这都是因为这些线索、气味、对乔叔叔的期待、你以前的经历，都是你记忆系统的一部分，以一种简单的方式与你的奖励电路对话。

So you're building up this anticipation, one could almost say this craving, which maybe we'll talk about in the context of addiction.

所以你正在建立这种预期，人们几乎可以说是这种渴望，也许我们会在成瘾的背景下讨论这一点。

And then, make a long story short, think about that evening at the end of Thanksgiving.

然后，长话短说，想想感恩节结束的那个晚上。

Those exact same cues, the exact same smell of the apple pie, turkey, and Uncle Joe himself.

那些完全相同的线索，苹果派、火鸡和乔叔叔本人完全相同的气味。

At the very least, they're no longer repetitive, meaning they might actually be aversive.

至少，它们不再重复，这意味着它们实际上可能令人厌恶。

The last thing you want is a piece of apple pie.

你最不想要的就是一块苹果派。

You can't wait for Uncle Joe to leave your Thanksgiving dinner.

你等不及乔叔叔离开你的感恩节晚餐了。

And I always argue that does not happen magically.

我总是认为这不会神奇地发生。

That happens because your brain has been modified by the context in which it sits.

发生这种情况是因为你的大脑已经被它所处的环境所改变。

And this very important modulatory system, this reward circuitry, is responding to the exact same stimuli with a very different response.

这个非常重要的调节系统，这个奖励电路，正在以非常不同的反应来响应完全相同的刺激。

So I'm just telling you, I'm repeating what you said, the phenomenology.

所以我只是告诉你，我在重复你所说的现象学。

And again, my other favorite example is any of us who have been in an intimate relationship knows that the love of your life can turn to the bane of your existence in 20 seconds.

再说一次，我最喜欢的另一个例子是，我们任何一个有过亲密关系的人都知道，你一生的挚爱可以在 20 秒内变成你存在的祸根。

And again, that doesn't happen magically.

再说一遍，这不会神奇地发生。

This person who you crave, who you love, does something, and two minutes later, your brain is saying, oh, my God, I may have to break up with this person, or, this is an incredibly painful emotional experience, and what fascinates me about the brain is, how does the brain mediate that rapid change?

这个你渴望的、你爱的人做了一些事情，两分钟后，你的大脑说，哦，天啊，我可能不得不和这个人分手，或者，这是一种难以置信的痛苦的情感体验，而大脑让我着迷的是，大脑如何调解这种快速的变化？

So now back to, so, yes, context is everything about how this powerful neuromodule choice system that uses dopamine works, and the truth is, we don't know.

现在回到，是的，上下文就是关于这个使用多巴胺的强大神经模块选择系统如何工作的一切，而事实是，我们不知道。

It's because the inputs onto these dopamine neurons, the other nerve cells that are driving the activity of the dopamine neurons, and I've actually studied this in my lab at Stanford University with a colleague you know well, Lee Chun Luo, who's a world class neuroscientist.

这是因为这些多巴胺神经元的输入，以及驱动多巴胺神经元活动的其他神经细胞，我实际上已经在斯坦福大学的实验室中与一位您熟悉的同事李春罗（Lee Chun Luo）进行了研究，他是一位世界级的神经科学家。

We've studied the complexity of the neuroanatomy of the dopamine system, and these dopamine neurons in the ventral tegmental area, the source of the reward circuitry, dopamine, are receiving inputs from all over the brain.

我们研究了多巴胺系统神经解剖学的复杂性，腹侧被盖区的这些多巴胺神经元（奖励回路多巴胺的来源）正在接收来自整个大脑的输入。

They're receiving indirectly or directly inputs from visual areas, from somatosensory areas.

他们从视觉区域、体感区域间接或直接接收输入。

And I'm not giving you a really good answer because that's one of the goals of my research, to try to understand how context, how the history that you've had with these cues, which we're going to get back to of the donut or of a drug, how has that modified how this neuromodulatory system responds?

我不会给你一个很好的答案，因为这是我研究的目标之一，试图了解背景，你对这些线索的历史，我们将回到甜甜圈或药物，这如何改变了神经调节系统的反应？

Similarly, the nucleus accumbens, the target of this powerful modulator, dopamine, is receiving communications, what we call inputs from all sorts of brain regions that you know about.

同样，伏隔核（这种强大的调节剂多巴胺的目标）正在接收通信，我们称之为来自您所了解的各种大脑区域的输入。

Andrew, your audience may not.

安德鲁，你的听众可能不会。

It receives inputs from an area called the hippocampus, which you may have covered in previous podcasts, which is very powerfully, very important for memories, both establishing new memories and, again, remember, that makes sense.

它接收来自海马体区域的输入，您可能在之前的播客中已经介绍过该区域，这对记忆非常强大、非常重要，既可以建立新的记忆，又可以记住，这是有道理的。

You want this system, this dopamine reward circuitry, to be very connected to memory systems.

你希望这个系统，这个多巴胺奖励电路，与记忆系统紧密相连。

So the activity in the nucleus accumbens is modulated by dopamine while it is receiving information from the hippocampus, which helps encode new memories, while it's receiving information from a brain area called the amygdala, which is a part of the brain involved in our emotional experiences.

因此，伏隔核的活动受到多巴胺的调节，同时它从海马体接收信息，海马体有助于编码新的记忆，同时它从称为杏仁核的大脑区域接收信息，杏仁核是大脑中参与情绪体验的一部分。

The accumbens also receives inputs from the prefrontal cortex, which is this brain area.

伏隔核还接收来自前额叶皮层（即这个大脑区域）的输入。

As you know better than me, Andrew, is important for decision making, for planning our activity, and I could go on and on.

安德鲁，正如你比我更了解的那样，这对于决策、规划我们的活动非常重要，我可以继续说下去。

Andrew Huberman: Well, could we talk about prefrontal cortex for a moment, because it always was surprising to me that prefrontal cortex is talked about as this higher executive function area.

安德鲁·休伯曼：好吧，我们能谈谈前额叶皮层吗？因为前额叶皮层被视为高级执行功能区域，这总是让我感到惊讶。

But then when you look at the neuroanatomy, it's, as we say, monosynaptically, as you and I know, one connection away from structures like the amygdala, one connection away from structures like the nucleus accumbens.

但是，当你观察神经解剖学时，正如我们所说，单突触，正如你和我所知，与杏仁核等结构有一种联系，与伏隔核等结构有一种联系。

In other words, prefrontal cortex, to me, is every bit as ancient as some of these other structures that we think of as more ancient, and really, the whole ancient evolved thing gets a little bit dicey because certain areas aren't like the prefrontal cortex, are more elaborated in humans.

换句话说，对我来说，前额叶皮层与我们认为更古老的其他一些结构一样古老，而且实际上，整个古代进化的东西变得有点冒险，因为某些区域不像前额叶皮层，在人类中更为复杂。

But to me, the prefrontal cortex seems to be especially important in the context of this thing of scaling the reward response, or context of the reward response, because it can set rules.

但对我来说，前额皮质在缩放奖励反应或奖励反应的背景下似乎特别重要，因为它可以设定规则。

It seems to know, okay, we're recording a podcast now, and there are certain rules, there are certain things that we're going to do and not do.

它似乎知道，好吧，我们现在正在录制播客，有一定的规则，有一些我们要做和不做的事情。

But what's fascinating about the, and I'm so glad you gave a bunch of different examples, because what's fascinating, for instance, about the relationship example is that, yes, at one moment we can adore somebody, and another moment later, if they do something or don't do something, we can be incredibly frustrated with them.

但令人着迷的是，我很高兴你给出了一堆不同的例子，因为例如，关于关系的例子，令人着迷的是，是的，在某一时刻我们可以崇拜某人，而在另一时刻，如果他们做了某事或没有做某事，我们会对他们感到非常沮丧。

They can even become aversive to us.

他们甚至会变得厌恶我们。

Hopefully, that doesn't happen too frequently.

希望这种情况不会经常发生。

Robert Malenka: Hopefully.

罗伯特·马伦卡：希望如此。

Andrew Huberman: But I think we've all had the experience of a doughnut, an event, or a person actually looking different to us from one moment to the next, hopefully not at random.

安德鲁·胡伯曼：但我认为我们都有过这样的经历：一个甜甜圈、一个事件，或者一个人在我们眼中从某个时刻到下一个时刻看起来都不一样，希望不是随机的。

And so, to me, it seems like the prefrontal cortex is uniquely positioned to really say, okay, right now we are in a mode of, for lack of a better word, love and loving, like in the verb tense of loving, be in the verb tense of arguing.

所以，对我来说，前额叶皮层似乎处于独特的位置，可以真正说，好吧，现在我们正处于一种模式，因为缺乏更好的词，爱和爱，就像在爱的动词时态中，在争论的动词时态中。

We're now arguing.

我们现在正在争论。

We're in the verb tense of reconciliation, kind of somewhere in between or something of that sort, and how a structure in a circuit as simple as the dopamine system, one molecule could suddenly say, oh, you know what?

我们处于和解的动词时态，有点介于两者之间或类似的东西，以及像多巴胺系统这样简单的电路结构中，一个分子如何突然说，哦，你知道吗？

Now getting over my anger is rewarding.

现在克服我的愤怒是值得的。

Whereas five minutes ago, being right and being the most angry was rewarding, and then five minutes before that, again, we're accelerating this movie, but five minutes or five days or five years before that, this person could do no wrong, and the dopamine system is just cranking out dopamine, saying, whatever you do, I'm just delighted by it.

五分钟前，做对并且最愤怒是有回报的，然后五分钟之前，我们再次加速这部电影，但五分钟或五天或五年之前，这个人不会做错事，多巴胺系统只是大量产生多巴胺，说，无论你做什么，我都会对此感到高兴。

Incredible.

极好的。

Like, to me, I can't think of a more interesting system in neuroscience.

就像，对我来说，我想不出神经科学中更有趣的系统。

Robert Malenka: Well, I mean, that was eloquently put.

罗伯特·马伦卡：嗯，我的意思是，这句话说得很雄辩。

I agree with pretty much everything you said.

我几乎同意你所说的一切。

I don't have much to add, because what you're pointing out is the challenges of studying these systems, the importance of studying these systems, and the challenge of presenting how the brain works to this podcast audience.

我没有太多要补充的，因为你指出的是研究这些系统的挑战、研究这些系统的重要性，以及向播客观众展示大脑如何工作的挑战。

Because on the one hand, you have done a fantastic job over the last few years in your podcast of making complex subjects accessible to a lay audience and get them to be thinking about how our modern view of how the brain works could be used to enhance health, could enhance mental well being.

因为一方面，过去几年你在播客中做得非常出色，让普通观众能够接触到复杂的主题，并让他们思考如何利用我们对大脑工作方式的现代观点来增强健康，增强心理健康。

But as neuroscientists, academic neuroscientists ourselves, we know, you know, you are oversimplifying things, and the actual functioning of a system like the dopamine reward circuitry, as you just eloquently pointed out, is so much more complex.

但作为神经科学家，我们自己的学术神经科学家，我们知道，你知道，你把事情过于简单化了，而像多巴胺奖励回路这样的系统的实际功能，正如你刚才雄辩地指出的那样，要复杂得多。

It's modified by these prefrontal inputs, which are simultaneously telling our memory systems, pay attention here.

它被这些前额叶输入修改，这些输入同时告诉我们的记忆系统，注意这里。

I'm repeating what you just said.

我重复一下你刚才说的话。

The context makes a big difference, the history you have with the person or stimuli with whom you're interacting.

环境会产生很大的影响，比如你与人的历史或与你互动的刺激。

Like to bring this back to your which I never - the initial question -  does a small piece of a doughnut activate the cue that, that small piece of a donut activate the reward circuitry and cause release of dopamine to the same extent as the full donut?

我想把这个问题带回到你的问题上——最初的问题——一小块甜甜圈是否会激活这样的提示：那一小块甜甜圈会激活奖励电路并导致多巴胺的释放，其程度与整个甜甜圈的程度相同？

Depends on your experience with donuts.

取决于你对甜甜圈的经验。

I think for you and me, because we seem to both like donuts, they're highly repetitive for us, probably doesn't matter, because we have learned even a little piece of a doughnut activates all of our memory system, saying, man, that's an old fashioned glazed donut.

我想对你和我来说，因为我们似乎都喜欢甜甜圈，它们对我们来说是高度重复的，可能并不重要，因为我们知道，即使是一小块甜甜圈也会激活我们所有的记忆系统，说，伙计，这是一个老式的釉面甜甜圈。

I want to eat that.

我想吃那个。

I want to get one, or I want to have the discipline not to eat it.

我想要一个，或者我想要有纪律不吃它。

So I hope I'm answering your question, and I'm shifting topics completely.

所以我希望我正在回答你的问题，并且我正在完全转移话题。

But that's why addiction is so challenging.

但这就是为什么成瘾如此具有挑战性。

Well, let's talk about that.

好吧，我们来谈谈这个吧。

Andrew Huberman: Let's talk about that, because you've done a ton of important work in this area of addiction.

安德鲁·胡伯曼：让我们谈谈这个，因为你在成瘾领域做了很多重要的工作。

I mean, one of the basic questions I have about addiction know we hear that certain drugs are more addicting than other drugs or certain behaviors.

我的意思是，我对成瘾的基本问题之一知道我们听说某些药物比其他药物或某些行为更容易上瘾。

We also hear that we can become addicted to anything.

我们还听说我们会对任何事情上瘾。

When Anna Lemke was on this podcast, I said, what's the most unusual addiction you've ever seen?

当安娜·莱姆克（Anna Lemke）参加这个播客时，我说，你见过的最不寻常的成瘾行为是什么？

And she talked about a patient who sadly committed suicide at some point later that she told us had been addicted to water, to drinking of any kind, first alcohol, but then water eventually.

她谈到了一位患者，她后来悲伤地自杀了，她告诉我们她对水上瘾，对任何种类的饮料上瘾，首先是酒精，然后是水。

So my question about addiction in the dopamine system is, let's pick a drug like cocaine.

所以我关于多巴胺系统成瘾的问题是，让我们选择一种像可卡因这样的药物。

I've never done cocaine, but people who have done cocaine tell me that it feels very good.

我从来没有吸过可卡因，但吸过可卡因的人告诉我，那感觉非常好。

And one of the more salient features of the cocaine high is that it comes on very fast, and it ends pretty quickly, too.

可卡因兴奋最显着的特征之一是它来得非常快，结束得也很快。

Is the rate of dopamine increase related to the addictive property of a drug or behavior as much as how much dopamine is released?

多巴胺增加的速度与药物或行为的成瘾性相关吗？与多巴胺释放量的相关性一样大吗？

Robert Malenka: And that's a very sophisticated question, and the answer is yes.

罗伯特·马伦卡：这是一个非常复杂的问题，答案是肯定的。

And that's usually the lecture I give, the way I think about addiction, and obviously my friend and colleague Anna Lemke is one of the world's experts in terms of the understanding the human experience of addiction.

这通常是我的演讲，也是我思考成瘾问题的方式，显然我的朋友兼同事安娜·莱姆克（Anna Lemke）是了解人类成瘾体验方面的世界专家之一。

I have studied it as a cellular molecular neuroscientist trying to understand how addictive substances modify reward circuitry, modify the connections in the reward circuitry, modify how dopamine neurons act, and the way, like any, what appears to be a simple term, it's layered with complexity.

作为一名细胞分子神经科学家，我对它进行了研究，试图了解成瘾物质如何改变奖励回路，改变奖励回路中的连接，改变多巴胺神经元的行为方式，以及如何像任何看似简单的术语一样，它具有复杂性。

Addiction is somewhat of a continuum.

成瘾在某种程度上是一个连续体。

And I like to think about whether you're talking about substances like cocaine, and I will explicitly answer your question soon, or opioids.

我想考虑一下您是否在谈论可卡因等物质，我很快就会明确回答您的问题，或者阿片类药物。

As you know, we're going in this country, there is an opioid epidemic.

如你所知，我们所在的国家存在阿片类药物流行病。

I do like to think about addictive liability, and in my view, it is pretty clear that when we're talking about drugs, they have different degrees of addictive liability.

我确实喜欢考虑成瘾倾向，在我看来，很明显，当我们谈论毒品时，它们具有不同程度的成瘾倾向。

I mean, I had a cup of coffee this morning, and many of us listening to this podcast, it's really hard to start our day without getting that hit of caffeine.

我的意思是，今天早上我喝了一杯咖啡，我们很多人都在听这个播客，如果不摄入咖啡因，就很难开始新的一天。

But are we addicted to caffeine?

但我们会对咖啡因上瘾吗？

That's a tricky question, because I've never heard of anybody robbing a bank to get caffeine, destroying their personal life to get caffeine.

这是一个棘手的问题，因为我从来没有听说过有人为了获取咖啡因而抢劫银行，为了获取咖啡因而毁掉自己的个人生活。

So I would say caffeine causes tolerance, but I would not say it has a particularly high addictive liability, whereas drugs like psychosimulants, like cocaine or opioids, have a very high addictive liability.

因此，我会说咖啡因会导致耐受性，但我不会说它具有特别高的成瘾性，而像可卡因或阿片类药物等精神模拟物的药物则具有非常高的成瘾性。

So, to answer your mechanistic question, there have been some famous studies done by the director of the National Institute on Drug Abuse, Nora Volkow.

因此，为了回答你的机制问题，国家药物滥用研究所所长诺拉·沃尔科夫（Nora Volkow）进行了一些著名的研究。

Simultaneously, there have been studies in animal models of addiction where you nailed it.

同时，也有针对成瘾动物模型的研究，你已经成功了。

In a rough way, the addictive liability of a substance is directly correlated with two aspects of dopamine.

粗略地说，某种物质的成瘾性与多巴胺的两个方面直接相关。

How much dopamine is released in the accumbens and the kinetics of the dopamine release.

伏隔核中释放了多少多巴胺以及多巴胺释放的动力学。

As you said, how rapidly it's released.

正如你所说，它的发布速度有多快。

To get a little technical, even with a drug like cocaine or opioids, it's not only the drug itself, it's the route of administration, because the root of administration influences the kinetics, meaning how fast that drug gets into your brain influences the reward circuitry and how fast it causes a big, rapid release of dopamine.

从技术角度讲，即使是可卡因或阿片类药物，问题也不仅仅是药物本身，还有给药途径，因为给药的根源会影响动力学，这意味着药物进入大脑的速度会影响奖励回路，以及导致多巴胺大量快速释放的速度。

And some of your podcast listeners may be old enough to remember the crack cocaine epidemic or free base cocaine.

您的一些播客听众可能已经足够大了，还记得强效可卡因或游离碱可卡因的流行。

And cocaine does have, like methamphetamine, a very high addictive liability.

可卡因确实像甲基苯丙胺一样具有非常高的成瘾性。

I give lectures to students at Stanford about neurobiology of addiction as part of a team taught course.

作为团队教学课程的一部分，我在斯坦福大学给学生讲授成瘾神经生物学的课程。

I have kids who I had to deal with, and what I always say is, it's not that if you use this drug, you're automatically going to become an addict, but you're taking that risk.

我有一些我必须面对的孩子，我总是说，并不是说如果你使用这种药物，你就会自动上瘾，但你正在冒这个风险。

And it is impossible to become addicted to a substance if you've never used it, by definition, but back to the root of administration.

如果你从未使用过某种物质，那么就不可能对它上瘾，根据定义，而是回到管理的根源。

So I went off--

于是我就走了——

Andrew Huberman: --That's actually an interesting statement, because I think we may have heard that in high school, although I, to be honest, wasn't the most attentive high school student, and I regret that high school students, pay attention!

Andrew Huberman：——这实际上是一个有趣的说法，因为我想我们可能在高中时就听说过，尽管说实话，我不是最专心的高中生，我很遗憾高中生们注意了！

Robert Malenka: You did okay for yourself.

罗伯特·马伦卡：你自己做得还不错。

Andrew Huberman: Eventually I came around, but it was an uphill battle.

安德鲁·胡伯曼：最终我改变了主意，但这是一场艰苦的战斗。

But that you can't become addicted to something that you've never done, which I just want to earmark that because I think it's a profound statement, because it points to the importance of the memory system, but also plasticity.

但你不能沉迷于你从未做过的事情，我只是想指出这一点，因为我认为这是一个深刻的陈述，因为它指出了记忆系统的重要性，但也指出了可塑性。

And so I want to make sure that eventually we get around to talking about how the amount of dopamine released and the kinetics, how that might influence plasticity.

因此，我想确保最终我们能够讨论多巴胺的释放量和动力学，以及这如何影响可塑性。

Robert Malenka: Absolutely.

罗伯特·马伦卡：当然。

Andrew Huberman: What I'm asking here, queuing up in the back of your mind, is whether or not addiction is just related to the sensation that we have when we indulge in a behavior, or when we are under the influence of a drug, or whether or not it actually modifies neural circuitry in a way that makes a broader range of drugs or experiences attractive to us.

安德鲁·休伯曼：我想问的是，在你的脑海中排队的是，成瘾是否仅仅与我们沉迷于某种行为或受到药物影响时的感觉有关，或者它是否实际上改变了神经回路，使更广泛的药物或体验对我们有吸引力。

Robert Malenka: It's probably the latter, but.

罗伯特·马伦卡：可能是后者，但是。

So let me get back, and I will answer that in a second to the point I was making.

那么让我回来，我会立即回答我正在说的问题。

So it's not only the substance, it's the route of administration.

因此，这不仅是物质的问题，而且是给药途径的问题。

As I said, you can't develop a problem with a substance and develop a substance abuse problem if you never take it.

正如我所说，如果您不服用某种物质，就不可能出现药物问题，也不会出现药物滥用问题。

But snorting cocaine is a different experience than smoking it or injecting it.

但吸食可卡因与吸食或注射可卡因是一种不同的体验。

And one of the reasons the crack cocaine epidemic was so powerful, is it gets into when you're smoking it or injecting it.

强效可卡因如此流行的原因之一是，当你吸食或注射可卡因时，它就会进入体内。

And people do this now with methamphetamine, I mean, meth addicts, most of them.

现在人们用甲基苯丙胺来做这件事，我的意思是，他们中的大多数都是甲基苯丙胺成瘾者。

And that is another epidemic in our country.

这是我国的另一种流行病。

Most of them smoke it.

他们中的大多数人都抽烟。

And the danger of that is the drug, whether it's cocaine, methamphetamine, gets into your brain almost instantaneously, causes a very rapid, powerful surge of dopamine in the accumbens in this reward circuitry.

这样做的危险在于，药物，无论是可卡因还是甲基苯丙胺，几乎会立即进入你的大脑，在奖励回路的伏隔核中引起非常快速、强大的多巴胺激增。

And that the feeling you get, which, and we're going to get into this, is not necessarily a happy feeling, and it can last for tens of seconds or a few minutes, and it's a feeling that gives you this overwhelming compulsion and urge, I want to do it again.

而你所得到的感觉，我们将要讲到的，不一定是一种快乐的感觉，它可以持续几十秒或几分钟，而且这种感觉给你带来压倒性的强迫和冲动，我想再做一次。

Even though it may not actually feel all that good, and again, this gets into we didn't have an addiction problem for any substance other than alcohol, for most of humanity's existence, because these substances like cocaine, methamphetamine, synthetic opioids like fentanyl, they didn't exist.

尽管实际上感觉可能不太好，但再说一遍，在人类存在的大部分时间里，除了酒精之外，我们没有对任何物质上瘾的问题，因为这些物质如可卡因、甲基苯丙胺、合成阿片类药物如芬太尼，它们并不存在。

And the truth is, our brains are not designed to handle those kinds of very powerful substances.

事实是，我们的大脑并不是为了处理这些非常强大的物质而设计的。

Andrew Huberman: As many of you know, I've been taking AG1 daily since 2012.

Andrew Huberman：正如你们很多人所知，自 2012 年以来我一直每天服用 AG1。

So I'm delighted that they're sponsoring the podcast.

所以我很高兴他们赞助这个播客。

AG1 is a vitamin mineral probiotic drink that's designed to meet all of your foundational nutrition needs.

AG1 是一种维生素矿物质益生菌饮料，旨在满足您的所有基本营养需求。

Now, of course, I try to get enough servings of vitamins and minerals through whole food sources that include vegetables and fruits every day.

当然，现在我尝试每天通过包括蔬菜和水果在内的天然食物来源获取足够的维生素和矿物质。

But oftentimes I simply can't get enough servings.

但很多时候我根本吃不到足够的份量。

But with AG1, I'm sure to get enough vitamins and minerals and the probiotics that I need.

但有了 AG1，我肯定能获得足够的维生素和矿物质以及我需要的益生菌。

And it also contains adaptogens to help buffer stress.

它还含有适应原来帮助缓解压力。

Simply put, I always feel better when I take AG1.

简而言之，当我服用 AG1 时，我总是感觉更好。

I have more focus and energy and I sleep better.

我的注意力更加集中，精力更加充沛，睡眠质量也更好。

And it also happens to taste great.

而且它的味道也很棒。

For all these reasons, whenever I'm asked if you could take just one supplement, what would it be?

出于所有这些原因，每当我被问到是否可以只服用一种补充剂时，我会选择什么？

I answer AG1.

我回答AG1。

If you'd like to try AG1, go to drinkag1.com/huberman to claim a special offer.

如果您想尝试 AG1，请访问 Drinkag1.com/huberman 以获得特别优惠。

They'll give you five free travel packs plus a year's supply of Vitamin D3K2 again, that's drinkag1.com/huberman.

他们将再次为您提供五个免费旅行包以及一年的维生素 D3K2 供应，网址为 Drinkag1.com/huberman。

Robert Malenka: So, where do you want to go from here?

罗伯特·马伦卡：那么，你想从这里去哪里？

You asked a question about the neural mechanisms of what we call addiction.

你问了一个关于我们所说的成瘾的神经机制的问题。

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, I'd like to know about the role of neuroplasticity and addiction.

安德鲁·休伯曼：是的，我想了解神经可塑性和成瘾的作用。

I do want to highlight something you said, and I apologize for interrupting a moment ago.

我确实想强调你所说的一些内容，对于刚才打断我表示歉意。

And then I refrained, but it was an interruption based on real excitement because a person I know quite well, who is a recovered cocaine addict, told me.

然后我克制住了，但这是基于真正兴奋的打断，因为一个我很熟悉的人，一个康复的可卡因成瘾者告诉我。

And that, by the way, folks, this isn't, I have a friend and I'm actually, you know...

顺便说一句，伙计们，这不是，我有一个朋友，实际上，你知道......

I truly have never tried cocaine.

我确实从未尝试过可卡因。

And this person said that the first time they did cocaine, his thought was, I hate this, and I can't wait to do it again.

这个人说，他们第一次吸食可卡因时，他的想法是，我讨厌这个，我迫不及待地想再吸一次。

And that's exactly how you described it.

这正是你所描述的。

Robert Malenka: And I think that is a fairly common experience with people suffering from an addiction disorder.

罗伯特·马伦卡：我认为这对于患有成瘾症的人来说是相当普遍的经历。

We're not supposed to use the word addicts anymore because that's a little bit judgmental.

我们不应该再使用“瘾君子”这个词，因为这有点带有评判性。

Andrew Huberman: That's the new nomenclature.

Andrew Huberman：这是新的术语。

Robert Malenka: Something along those lines.

罗伯特·马伦卡：类似的事情。

Andrew Huberman: Got it.

安德鲁·休伯曼：明白了。

Calling someone an addict as opposed to being addicted.

称某人为瘾君子而不是上瘾。

Robert Malenka: Yeah, being.

罗伯特·马伦卡：是的，存在。

And that is a beautiful description.

这是一个美丽的描述。

I hate it, but I want to do it again and again.

我讨厌这样，但我想一次又一次地这样做。

It just shows the power of this system, which, remember, evolved for our survival.

它只是显示了这个系统的力量，记住，它是为了我们的生存而进化的。

So a very simple way of thinking about it is these drugs are tricking the reward circuitry to say, this stimulus, this experience, is really important for my survival.

因此，一种非常简单的思考方式是，这些药物正在欺骗奖励回路，告诉我这种刺激、这种经历对我的生存非常重要。

I have to go do it again and again and again.

我必须一次又一次地去做。

A side question is, the huge question is, why do some people develop an addiction problem and others who have used this substance just don't?

一个附带的问题是，最大的问题是，为什么有些人会出现成瘾问题，而其他使用过这种物质的人却不会？

And again, as a world class neuroscientist yourself, you know the answer.

再说一次，作为世界级的神经科学家，你知道答案。

It's always a complex combination of underlying genetics, the environment in which they find themselves, the environment in which they grew up, and how that modified their reward circuitry.

这始终是潜在遗传学、他们所处的环境、他们成长的环境以及这如何改变他们的奖励回路的复杂组合。

So, to get at your question, one set of experiments my lab did, which other labs did, too, I don't deserve the sole credit for this, is showing that drugs of abuse cause powerful plasticity in the neurons that make up the cells that make up the reward circuitry.

因此，为了回答你的问题，我的实验室所做的一组实验（其他实验室也做过）表明滥用药物会导致神经元具有强大的可塑性，而神经元构成了奖励回路的细胞。

And in fact, drugs of abuse, like cocaine, methamphetamine, opioids like morphine, heroin, change the synapses.

事实上，滥用药物，如可卡因、甲基苯丙胺、吗啡、海洛因等阿片类药物，会改变突触。

The synapses are the connections from other nerve cells onto dopamine neurons, onto the nerve cells and the accumbens.

突触是其他神经细胞与多巴胺神经元、神经细胞和伏隔核的连接。

And these connections, these synapses, can change.

这些连接、这些突触是可以改变的。

And drugs of abuse cause powerful changes in those connections, and therefore, powerful changes in the activity of the dopamine neurons and the neurons in the nucleus accumbens.

滥用药物会导致这些连接发生巨大变化，从而导致多巴胺神经元和伏隔核神经元的活动发生巨大变化。

And, in fact, the types of changes that occur appear to be similar to the types of changes that have evolved for good uses for adaptive forms of learning and memory.

事实上，所发生的变化类型似乎与为适应性学习和记忆形式的良好用途而进化的变化类型相似。

So, again, this is an example that this superficially simple dopamine reward circuitry is changing all the time, and it's highly plastic and can become more sensitive to certain experiences, etc, etc.

所以，这又是一个例子，这个表面上简单的多巴胺奖励电路一直在变化，而且它具有高度可塑性，可以对某些经历变得更加敏感，等等。

Andrew Huberman: Well, could I ask a question about some of the general contours of the plasticity and the dopamine system?

Andrew Huberman：嗯，我可以问一个关于可塑性和多巴胺系统的一些一般轮廓的问题吗？

You said before, and I love this statement, even though it's very simple, but in its simplicity, it's really elegant that we can't become addicted to a substance or a behavior that we haven't taken or partaken in.

你之前说过，我喜欢这个说法，尽管它很简单，但就其简单而言，我们不能对我们没有服用或参与过的物质或行为上瘾，这真的很优雅。

So is there data to support the idea that just one exposure to cocaine or one exposure to some sort of behavior can lead to a lasting change in the dopamine system, such that one's propensity to be addicted to that substance again, if one were to indulge in the future, or behavior again in the future, is increased?

那么，是否有数据支持这一观点，即仅仅一次接触可卡因或一次接触某种行为就可以导致多巴胺系统发生持久变化，从而使一个人再次沉迷于该物质的倾向（如果一个人将来沉迷于该物质或将来再次发生某种行为）会增加？

And I have a very particular reason for asking this, but I'm very curious what the answer is.

我问这个问题有一个非常特殊的原因，但我很好奇答案是什么。

Robert Malenka: I mean, in the work my lab and other labs have done in preclinical rodent models, the answer is yes.

罗伯特·马伦卡：我的意思是，在我的实验室和其他实验室在临床前啮齿动物模型方面所做的工作中，答案是肯定的。

A single administration of a drug of abuse, like cocaine, like morphine, can cause relatively several days, several weeks of changes in the connections onto dopamine neurons and onto the neurons in the nucleus accumbens those changes.

一次滥用药物，如可卡因、吗啡，可能会导致多巴胺神经元和伏核神经元的连接发生相对数天、数周的变化。

That does not mean these changes are permanent or irreversible, but the changes last a long time.

这并不意味着这些变化是永久性的或不可逆转的，但这些变化会持续很长时间。

And again, the big question for understanding the neurobiology of addiction is, those changes are probably happening in most people who take the drug.

再说一遍，理解成瘾神经生物学的一个大问题是，这些变化可能发生在大多数服用药物的人身上。

In this case, and we can talk about other stimuli, non drug stimuli that can become "addictive."

在这种情况下，我们可以谈论其他刺激，非药物刺激，这些刺激会让人“上瘾”。

Again, why in certain individuals?

再说一遍，为什么在某些人身上？

To be honest, it's not a big deal.

说实话，这没什么大不了的。

Yeah, I did cocaine at this party.

是的，我在这次聚会上吸食了可卡因。

It was nice, but I don't feel any craving or urge to do it again.

这很好，但我没有任何渴望或冲动再做一次。

Whereas other individuals, it sets them down a very bad path and really badly affects their life.

而其他人，这让他们走上了一条非常糟糕的道路，并严重影响了他们的生活。

And that's a huge question in the research field, because obviously, if we could make predictions on which individuals are more susceptible, and not to get too political here, but whether you become, develop a problem with addiction, or not is influenced by the other parts of your life.

这在研究领域是一个巨大的问题，因为显然，我们是否可以预测哪些人更容易上瘾，并且不要在这里变得过于政治化，但你是否会出现成瘾问题，是否会受到你生活其他部分的影响。

Do you have other ways of getting, reinforcing stimuli, getting satisfaction, having an outlet, that other ways of activating your reward or dopamine circuitry?

你有其他方式来获得、强化刺激、获得满足、有一个出口、激活你的奖赏或多巴胺回路吗？

Healthy ways, right?

健康的方式，对吗？

Like, as you have articulated, I think, in your podcast, getting exercise.

我认为，就像您在播客中所阐述的那样，锻炼身体。

You and I both like to get exercise.

你和我都喜欢锻炼身体。

I feel really good.

我感觉真的很好。

Sometimes it's painful during the exercise, but afterwards I feel great.

有时练习时会很痛，但练习后感觉很好。

Andrew Huberman: Almost the inverse of the cocaine response.

Andrew Huberman：几乎与可卡因反应相反。

Robert Malenka: Yeah, the desire.

罗伯特·马伦卡：是的，愿望。

Andrew Huberman: And then I hate this, but I can't wait to do it again.

Andrew Huberman：然后我讨厌这样，但我迫不及待地想再做一次。

It seems like exercise is often the opposite.

看来运动往往适得其反。

I hate this, I don't want to do this.

我讨厌这样，我不想这样做。

And then afterwards, gosh, I always feel better and I'd be happy to do it again.

然后，天哪，我总是感觉好多了，我很乐意再做一次。

Robert Malenka: Yes, I like to exercise chasing a ball, because that gets me off thinking about this hurts anyhow, back to addiction.

罗伯特·马伦卡：是的，我喜欢练习追球，因为这让我不再去想这种伤害，无论如何，回到上瘾。

So, yes, these drugs can cause, I don't want to, definitely not permanent, changes from a single exposure.

所以，是的，这些药物可能会因单次接触而引起（我不想）绝对不是永久性的变化。

And the types of studies I'm talking about were all done in experimental animals.

我所说的这些研究都是在实验动物身上进行的。

So how that relates to what happens in our brains, in human subjects brains is not completely clear, but I think there are parallels.

因此，这与我们的大脑、人类大脑中发生的事情有何关系尚不完全清楚，但我认为存在相似之处。

So the changes might last a few days, a week or two, but one can see if somebody, there have been studies done where, in an animal model, if you give repeated administration of a drug like cocaine, the changes get stronger and they last longer, which is kind of intuitively obvious.

因此，这些变化可能会持续几天、一星期或两周，但人们可以看看是否有人进行过研究，在动物模型中，如果你重复服用可卡因等药物，变化会变得更强，持续时间更长，这是直观上显而易见的。

But again, the big question is why, in human subjects, there are people who can use these substances and not develop a serious problem, and there are others where they're very damaging.

但同样，最大的问题是，为什么在人类受试者中，有些人可以使用这些物质而不会出现严重的问题，而另一些人则具有很大的破坏性。

And then that's why I still make the point.

这就是为什么我仍然强调这一点。

If you're a young person, do you want to take that risk?

如果你是年轻人，你愿意冒这个风险吗？

Is it worth it to have that experience?

值得拥有这样的经历吗？

And that's an individual decision.

这是个人决定。

Andrew Huberman: We've done some podcast episodes about alcohol, cannabis, etc., and there just seem to be a pretty wide variation in people's response to the information, I think because there are people out there who, well, I've got friends who are recovered alcoholics who will tell me the first drink they took, they use language like it combined with the chemistry of my body in a way that nothing before ever had.

安德鲁·胡伯曼：我们制作了一些关于酒精、大麻等的播客节目，人们对这些信息的反应似乎有很大差异，我想是因为有些人，嗯，我有戒酒的朋友，他们会告诉我他们喝的第一杯酒，他们使用的语言与我身体的化学成分相结合，这是前所未有的。

And they felt like it was like this magic elixir, right?

他们觉得这就像这灵丹妙药一样，对吗？

That has not been my experience.

我的经历并非如此。

Robert Malenka: I have heard the same stories, and it's hard for me to relate, because, like you, alcohol does not have that effect on me.

罗伯特·马伦卡：我也听过同样的故事，但我很难理解，因为像你一样，酒精对我没有这种影响。

And it's hard to believe that kind of immediate response to alcohol is due to the environment in which they grew up, although that can have an influence that just feels almost more genetically encoded.

很难相信对酒精的这种立即反应是由于他们成长的环境造成的，尽管这可能会产生一种感觉更像是基因编码的影响。

And there is evidence that issues with the use of alcohol and developing alcohol use disorder does run in families.

有证据表明，饮酒和患上酒精使用障碍的问题确实存在家庭遗传。

And obviously, if it runs in family, you have to worry about how the environment of that family influences it.

显然，如果它是在家庭中遗传的，你就必须担心家庭环境如何影响它。

But there's a lot of studies saying there is a genetic component.

但有很多研究表明其中存在遗传因素。

Maybe, like you, if I have a drink or two in the afternoon, I just fall asleep, and it does not have that effect on me.

也许，像你一样，如果我下午喝一两杯，我就会睡着，这对我没有那种影响。

And anyone can imagine similar things for other drugs of abuse.

任何人都可以想象其他滥用药物的类似情况。

There are people who have used cocaine, have used methamphetamine, who find it modestly enjoyable, but it's not the be all or end all, isn't this incredibly powerful experience.

有些人使用过可卡因，使用过甲基苯丙胺，他们觉得这有点令人愉快，但这不是全部或最终，这不是一种令人难以置信的强大体验。

And you just talked about, I think, a friend or a colleague who said, I hate it.

我想，你刚刚谈到一位朋友或同事说，我讨厌它。

I hate that, but I want to do it again.

我讨厌这样，但我想再做一次。

And that's fascinating.

这很有趣。

Andrew Huberman: Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。

They're now a recovered alcoholic and cocaine addict, and they've abstained for many years, but still get a little bit of a gleam in their eye when they talk about alcohol or cocaine in a way that I just can't relate to.

他们现在是一个康复的酒精和可卡因成瘾者，并且已经戒酒多年，但当他们以一种我无法理解的方式谈论酒精或可卡因时，他们的眼中仍然闪烁着一点光芒。

Robert Malenka: Can I tell you a little vignette about me?

罗伯特·马伦卡：我可以告诉你一些关于我的小故事吗？

Which I love to tell.

我喜欢告诉大家。

Andrew Huberman: Sure.

安德鲁·休伯曼：当然。

Robert Malenka: And it gets into how the reward circuitry is so closely associated with memory systems and how cues associate it with powerful experiences, develop their own reinforcing or aversive quality.

罗伯特·马伦卡：它涉及奖励回路如何与记忆系统如此紧密地联系在一起，以及线索如何将其与强大的经历联系起来，发展自己的强化或厌恶品质。

So, long story short, when I was a young kid, I can't remember in my 20s, maybe 20, I spent a few weeks in Paris, I started smoking cigarettes.

所以，长话短说，当我还是个小孩子的时候，我不记得在我20多岁的时候，也许是20岁，我在巴黎呆了几个星期，我开始抽烟。

I mean, this is a long time ago, and cigarettes are very interesting.

我的意思是，这是很久以前的事了，香烟很有趣。

Nicotine is highly addictive, as the tobacco companies were fully aware of.

烟草公司充分意识到，尼古丁具有很强的成瘾性。

Andrew Huberman: High addictive liability.

安德鲁·休伯曼（Andrew Huberman）：高度成瘾。

Robert Malenka: Very high addictive liability.

罗伯特·马伦卡：非常容易上瘾。

Andrew Huberman: People will rob people for the money to buy cigarettes.

安德鲁·休伯曼：人们会为了买香烟的钱而抢劫。

Robert Malenka: They may not rob because, although my understanding is they've become quite expensive, but counterfeit cigarettes are a huge market for organized crime.

罗伯特·马伦卡：他们可能不会抢劫，因为虽然我的理解是它们已经变得相当昂贵，但假烟是有组织犯罪的巨大市场。

There are parts in the world, third World countries, where organized crime produce counterfeit cigarettes and are making hundreds of millions or billions of dollars.

在世界上的一些地方，第三世界国家，有组织的犯罪活动生产假烟，并赚取了数亿或数十亿美元。

I think nicotine as it is delivered in cigarettes, as you know, I mean, tobacco companies put in a lot of work to figure out the exact dose of nicotine that will make you get that kind of feeling that only lasts for a few minutes, so you want to do it again and again.

我认为尼古丁是在香烟中提供的，正如你所知，我的意思是，烟草公司投入了大量的工作来找出尼古丁的确切剂量，这会让你得到那种只持续几分钟的感觉，所以你想一次又一次地这样做。

So we can talk about nicotine.

所以我们可以谈谈尼古丁。

What becomes a problem in a specific society with addiction is not only based on the neurobiological actions.

在特定的成瘾社会中，成瘾问题不仅仅取决于神经生物学行为。

If we're talking still about drugs or substances of that substance, it's heavily influenced by the availability of the substance.

如果我们仍然谈论药物或该物质的物质，那么它很大程度上受到该物质的可用性的影响。

But my little story is, I smoked some cigarettes in Paris.

但我的小故事是，我在巴黎抽了一些烟。

I learned why people like to smoke.

我明白了为什么人们喜欢吸烟。

It was very satisfying to have a cigarette in a Parisian cafe.

在巴黎的咖啡馆里抽根烟，很满足。

And it's very interesting because the first few times you inhale tobacco, you get dizzy.

这非常有趣，因为最初几次吸入烟草时，您会感到头晕。

It's kind of aversive, and it's exactly what you articulated.

这有点令人厌恶，而这正是你所表达的。

Despite that, you want to do it again.

尽管如此，你还是想再做一次。

So it was just a lot of fun for me.

所以这对我来说很有趣。

I enjoyed it, and I was disciplined.

我很享受它，而且我很自律。

At some point, whenever this was, I came back to the United States.

在某个时候，无论什么时候，我都会回到美国。

I didn't smoke because I knew it was bad for you.

我不抽烟，因为我知道这对你不好。

But to this day, 40 years later, every time I go back to Paris, I get cravings.

但直到 40 年后的今天，每次我回到巴黎，我都会对它产生渴望。

I actually just want to get a pack of cigarettes.

其实我只是想买包烟。

I want to have that feeling again of inhaling the smoke.

我想再次体验那种吸入烟雾的感觉。

But the point is of how powerful these rewarding experiences can be, or reinforcing experiences.

但关键在于这些有益的经历或强化的经历有多么强大。

And for your audience, technically, what I have been taught by some of my psychology colleagues is we use the term reinforcing in a very behaviorally defined way.

对于你们的听众来说，从技术上讲，我的一些心理学同事教给我的是，我们以一种非常行为定义的方式使用“强化”这个术语。

Something is reinforcing is if the behavior that led to that stimuli, it makes you want to do that behavior.

强化的是，如果导致该刺激的行为，它会让你想做该行为。

Again, rewarding means it actually felt "good."

再说一次，奖励意味着它实际上感觉“很好”。

Andrew Huberman: That's an important distinction.

Andrew Huberman：这是一个重要的区别。

Robert Malenka: They actually can be different.

罗伯特·马伦卡：它们实际上可以不同。

Again, as you defined by your friend who his, I forget, I think it was cocaine.

再说一次，正如你的朋友所定义的那样，我忘记了，我认为那是可卡因。

Cocaine was highly reinforcing, but it was not necessarily enjoyable or rewarding.

可卡因具有很强的强化作用，但它不一定令人愉快或有益。

And isn't that fascinating?

这不是很有趣吗？

I have some colleagues in the addiction field.

我有一些同事从事成瘾领域的工作。

One of them is retired now, Kent Barridge and Terry Robinson.

其中一位现已退休，肯特·巴里奇和特里·罗宾逊。

They distinguish between the terms wanting and liking.

他们区分“想要”和“喜欢”这两个词。

And think about that.

想想看。

Liking something means it's something you like, you enjoy.

喜欢某事意味着你喜欢、享受它。

Wanting means you want it, but you don't necessarily like it or enjoy it.

想要意味着你想要它，但你不一定喜欢它或享受它。

And that's a description of your friend's experience with cocaine.

这是对你朋友吸食可卡因经历的描述。

Some of us have been in destructive relationships where you want that individual, but you're not sure you necessarily like that individual.

我们中的一些人曾经处于破坏性的关系中，你想要那个人，但你不确定你是否一定喜欢那个人。

Andrew Huberman: Sometimes people will be in relationships where they actively dislike the other person, which is a bit foreign of a concept to me, but, well, it's interesting.

安德鲁·休伯曼：有时，人们在恋爱关系中会主动讨厌对方，这对我来说有点陌生，但是，这很有趣。

This separation of reinforcing and rewarding wanting and liking, because one of the things that's very prominent in twelve step programs is to create rewards around abstaining from the drug or behavior.

这种强化和奖励想要和喜欢的分离，因为在十二步计划中非常突出的事情之一是围绕戒除药物或行为创造奖励。

And I should mention that programs like twelve step, when followed, seem to have very high success rates.

我应该提到，像十二步这样的计划，如果遵循的话，似乎有非常高的成功率。

At least that's what Ana Lemke tells me, that in some ways they are modifying the wanting and liking.

至少安娜·莱姆克告诉我的是，在某些方面他们正在改变需求和喜好。

They're splitting the wanting and liking of alcohol, for instance, creating a liking of sobriety more than the wanting of alcohol, for instance.

例如，他们将对酒精的渴望和喜好分开，创造出​​对清醒的喜爱，而不是对酒精的渴望。

Robert Malenka: That's beautifully put.

罗伯特·马伦卡：说得很好。

And I think that's right.

我认为这是对的。

How that plays out in the neural mechanisms that, as a neuroscientist, I'm interested.

作为一名神经科学家，我很感兴趣的是这在神经机制中是如何发挥作用的。

Man, that's a tough one, but I think that's why those programs are pretty successful.

伙计，这是一项艰巨的任务，但我认为这就是这些计划非常成功的原因。

It's helping the person make those dissociations.

它正在帮助人们实现这些分离。

And I don't know that much about those programs because I have not seen patients myself for whatever it's been, 27, 28 years.

我对这些项目了解不多，因为我已经 27、28 年没有亲自见过病人了。

But I think part of them are to help that individual find, both other sources of liking and reward, getting some satisfaction and reward from the actual abstinence, being able to cognitively teach themselves that I deserve a pat on the back.

但我认为其中一部分是为了帮助个人找到喜欢和奖励的其他来源，从实际的禁欲中获得一些满足和奖励，能够认知地教导自己我值得被拍拍。

I deserve credit.

我值得赞扬。

I feel good that I did not take a drink at that party that I did not use that substance again.

我感觉很好，因为我没有在聚会上喝酒，也没有再使用那种物质。

And how that plays out in our brains is a really tough one.

而这如何在我们的大脑中发挥作用是一个非常困难的问题。

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, the way you described it is exactly right.

Andrew Huberman：是的，你描述的方式完全正确。

Those programs are highly reinforcing for abstinence behaviors, everything from the social connection, which we're going to get to social connection, as you know, to the way that people start to conceptualize their addict self versus other self.

这些计划对禁欲行为有很强的强化作用，从我们将要谈到的社会联系，到人们开始概念化成瘾者自我与其他自我的方式，一切都如此。

It actually involves a splitting of the self in interesting ways.

它实际上涉及以有趣的方式分裂自我。

As long as we're talking about donuts, cigarettes, alcohol, cocaine.

只要我们谈论甜甜圈、香烟、酒精、可卡因。

I'm curious, before we move to a bit more on neuroplasticity, is there anything that people ought to know about how different substances and behaviors that are addicting might impact the dopamine reward circuitry differently?

我很好奇，在我们进一步讨论神经可塑性之前，人们是否应该了解不同的成瘾物质和行为如何对多巴胺奖励回路产生不同的影响？

So, for instance, we talked about cocaine as having this very rapid onset, big increase in dopamine, then a crash, as we know, a certain pattern of kinetics, as you describe it, the opioid crisis is incredibly serious problem right now, as is methamphetamine.

例如，我们谈到可卡因起效非常快，多巴胺大量增加，然后崩溃，正如我们所知，某种动力学模式，正如你所描述的，阿片类药物危机现在是一个极其严重的问题，就像甲基苯丙胺一样。

But it sounds like methamphetamine functions a bit like cocaine.

但听起来甲基苯丙胺的作用有点像可卡因。

And in terms of its kinetics, yes.

就其动力学而言，是的。

So an opioid is a very different chemical than cocaine, but it sounds like it impacts the dopamine system.

因此，阿片类药物是一种与可卡因非常不同的化学物质，但听起来它会影响多巴胺系统。

Is the dopaminergic activity caused by opioids responsible for the addictive properties of opioids?

阿片类药物引起的多巴胺能活性是否导致阿片类药物成瘾？

Or do people also like the feeling of being under opioids?

或者人们也喜欢服用阿片类药物的感觉吗？

I personally hate it coming out of surgery.

我个人讨厌手术后的结果。

Like, they gave me Vicodin once and I hated it.

就像，他们给了我一次维柯丁，但我讨厌它。

I'd rather have the pain, the postoperative pain, than take something like Vicodin or a Valium or fentanyl or anything like that, to me, is just completely aversive.

我宁愿忍受疼痛，术后疼痛，也不愿服用维柯丁、安定或芬太尼之类的药物，对我来说，这些药物是完全令人厌恶的。

But I realize that there are many millions of people that feel quite differently.

但我意识到有数百万人的感受截然不同。

Robert Malenka: It's a great question.

罗伯特·马伦卡：这是一个很好的问题。

So I think all the studies, both in human beings and preclinical animal models, yes, would suggest that the addictive liability of opioids and psychostimulants, which are cocaine and methamphetamine, have the common final action of causing massive release of dopamine in this target of the dopamine neurons, the nucleus accumbens.

因此，我认为所有的研究，无论是在人类还是临床前动物模型中，都表明阿片类药物和精神兴奋剂（可卡因和甲基苯丙胺）的成瘾性具有共同的最终作用，即导致多巴胺神经元目标（伏隔核）大量释放多巴胺。

They do it, if we want to get a little scientifically technical here, via very different mechanisms.

如果我们想在这里获得一些科学技术，他们会通过非常不同的机制来做到这一点。

So cocaine and methamphetamine, what the drugs known as psychostimulants, actually bind to a protein in the brain, or a molecule in the brain that is responsible for sucking up.

因此，可卡因和甲基苯丙胺（这些被称为精神兴奋剂的药物）实际上与大脑中的一种蛋白质或大脑中负责吸食的分子结合。

It's a vacuum cleaner sucking up the dopamine after it's been released.

它就像一个真空吸尘器，在多巴胺释放后将其吸走。

And cocaine prevents that dopamine from being vacuumed up.

可卡因可以防止多巴胺被吸走。

So the cocaine hangs around longer.

所以可卡因的滞留时间更长。

Meth not only prevents the dopamine from being vacuumed up, it actually causes the reverse.

冰毒不仅会阻止多巴胺被吸收，实际上还会导致相反的情况。

It actually causes the direct release of dopamine from what we call nerve terminals, from the site where dopamine is released.

它实际上导致多巴胺从我们所说的神经末梢，从释放多巴胺的部位直接释放。

Opioids work very differently.

阿片类药物的作用非常不同。

They actually primarily, not solely work where the dopamine neurons live.

实际上，它们不仅仅在多巴胺神经元所在的地方起作用。

And it's a little complicated, it's not that critical, but they indirectly increase the activity within the dopamine neurons themselves, causing a big, massive, bigger than normal release of dopamine.

这有点复杂，也不是那么重要，但它们间接增加了多巴胺神经元本身的活动，导致多巴胺比正常情况下大量释放。

So that's one commonality.

这是一个共同点。

But anybody who has used these drugs or read about these drugs, the subjective experience of the drugs are dramatically different, and that's because of the actions they're having, not only in the reward circuitry, but throughout the brain.

但任何使用过这些药物或阅读过这些药物的人，对这些药物的主观体验都是截然不同的，这是因为它们不仅在奖励回路中，而且在整个大脑中都有作用。

And it's interesting, you talked about Vicodin.

有趣的是，你谈到了维柯丁。

I've taken Vicodin because I've had several knee surgeries and things.

我服用维柯丁是因为我做过几次膝盖手术之类的。

Like you, I didn't like it.

和你一样，我也不喜欢它。

I've gotten other opioids for pain relief that were great.

我已经购买了其他非常有效的阿片类药物来缓解疼痛。

I mean, they took away a lot of pain after my ligament repair.

我的意思是，在我的韧带修复后，他们减轻了很多疼痛。

And that's a different question, that even when you're talking about opioids, all drugs, they're not identical.

这是一个不同的问题，即使你谈论的是阿片类药物，所有药物，它们也不完全相同。

Fentanyl has a much big, larger addictive liability because of its molecular properties and how it's interacting with the opioid system in our brains and the receptors, the actual proteins in the brain that it interacts with.

芬太尼具有非常大的成瘾性，因为它的分子特性以及它如何与我们大脑中的阿片系统和受体（与它相互作用的大脑中的实际蛋白质）相互作用。

But the subjective experience of opioids, it's interesting.

但阿片类药物的主观体验很有趣。

Some people love it.

有些人喜欢它。

If we go back in history, as you know, there were the opium dens throughout Asia.

如果我们回顾历史，如你所知，整个亚洲都有鸦片烟馆。

There were wars about opioids, the famous opioid wars between China and the United Kingdom, showing you how powerful the availability of a substance like an opioid can be.

关于阿片类药物的战争，中国和英国之间著名的阿片类药物战争，向您展示了像阿片类药物这样的物质的可用性有多么强大。

So I'm going off on a tangent.

所以我要偏离正题了。

Andrew Huberman: No, I think these are important.

Andrew Huberman：不，我认为这些很重要。

Robert Malenka: But commonality is dopamine release in the, if you remember what a ven diagram is, these drugs have some common actions, usually on, directly or indirectly, causing the massive release of dopamine in the accumbens.

罗伯特·马伦卡：但共同点是多巴胺的释放，如果你还记得文图是什么，这些药物有一些共同的作用，通常是直接或间接地导致伏隔核中多巴胺的大量释放。

But then they have their own individual actions, because obviously, when you take cocaine or methamphetamine, it's a stimulator.

但他们有自己的个人行动，因为显然，当你服用可卡因或甲基苯丙胺时，它是一种刺激剂。

People are grinding their teeth, they're hyped up.

人们都咬牙切齿，兴奋不已。

For most people, opioids are the exact opposite in opium dens.

对于大多数人来说，鸦片类药物与鸦片馆中的鸦片类药物完全相反。

From the movies I watched and watching narcos and all those TV shows, you're lying down, you're kind of in almost a dreamlike state.

从我看过的电影、毒枭和所有那些电视节目来看，你躺着，你几乎处于一种梦幻般的状态。

So very different subjective experiences.

所以主观体验非常不同。

Andrew Huberman: I'd like to just take a brief break and thank one of our sponsors, which is LMNT.

Andrew Huberman：我想短暂休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商之一，即 LMNT。

LMNT is an electrolyte drink that has everything you need and nothing you don't.

LMNT 是一种电解质饮料，拥有您需要的一切，没有您不需要的东西。

That means plenty of salt, sodium, magnesium and potassium, the so called electrolytes, and no sugar.

这意味着需要大量的盐、钠、镁和钾，即所谓的电解质，并且不含糖。

Now, salt, magnesium and potassium are critical to the function of all the cells in your body, in particular to the function of your nerve cells, also called neurons.

现在，盐、镁和钾对于体内所有细胞的功能至关重要，特别是对于神经细胞（也称为神经元）的功能。

And we now know that even slight reductions in electrolyte concentrations or dehydration of the body can lead to deficits in cognitive and physical performance.

我们现在知道，即使电解质浓度轻微降低或身体脱水也会导致认知和身体表现缺陷。

LMNT contains a science backed electrolyte ratio of 1000 milligrams.

LMNT 含有科学支持的电解质比例为 1000 毫克。

That's 1 gram of sodium, 200 milligrams of potassium and 60 milligrams of magnesium.

即 1 克钠、200 毫克钾和 60 毫克镁。

I typically drink LMNT first thing in the morning when I wake up in order to hydrate my body and make sure I have enough electrolytes.

我通常早上起床后第一件事就是喝 LMNT，为身体补充水分并确保有足够的电解质。

And while I do any kind of physical training and after physical training as well, especially if I've been sweating a lot, and certainly I drink LMNT in my water when I'm in the sauna and after going in the sauna because that causes quite a lot of sweating.

当我进行任何类型的体育训练时以及体育训练后，尤其是当我出汗很多时，当然，当我在桑拿房中和进入桑拿房后，我会在水中喝 LMNT，因为这会导致大量出汗。

If you'd like to try LMNT, you can go to drinklmnt.com/huberman to claim a free element sample pack with your purchase.

如果您想尝试 LMNT，可以访问 Drinklmnt.com/huberman，在购买时索取免费元素样品包。

Again, that's drinklmnt.com/huberman.

再说一遍，这是 Drinklmnt.com/huberman。

Yeah, I had an experience with an opioid recently, not voluntarily.

是的，我最近有过使用阿片类药物的经历，但不是自愿的。

Over the Christmas holiday, we went to visit friends, and before going to sleep, I wanted some tea, and I asked if they had any non-caffeinated tea.

圣诞节假期，我们去拜访朋友，睡觉前我想喝点茶，我问他们有没有不含咖啡因的茶。

So they gave me this tea.

所以他们给了我这茶。

And that night I had the most bizarre dreams I've ever had.

那天晚上我做了我有生以来最奇怪的梦。

And I slept for 14 hours.

我睡了14个小时。

The next morning, I was like, what was that tea?

第二天早上，我想，那是什么茶？

And I felt off in the morning.

早上我感觉不舒服。

And it was actually a blue lotus flower tea that is actually illegal in the United States, but it is sold and it has morphine like compounds in it.

它实际上是一种蓝莲花茶，在美国实际上是非法的，但它被出售并且含有类似吗啡的化合物。

And I am one of those people that's very susceptible to even low doses of any kind of novel drug.

我是那些即使是低剂量的任何一种新药也非常容易受到影响的人之一。

Robert Malenka: Interesting.

罗伯特·马伦卡：有趣。

Have you ever taken cough syrup with dextromethorphan?

您曾经服用过右美沙芬止咳糖浆吗？

Andrew Huberman: No, I avoid that stuff.

Andrew Huberman：不，我避免那些东西。

Robert Malenka: Well, I have a tendency when I get a cold, it gets into my lungs.

罗伯特·马伦卡：嗯，当我感冒时，它会进入我的肺部。

I cough a lot.

我咳嗽得很厉害。

And I think this has been reported.

我认为这已经被报道了。

This is my anecdotal experience.

这是我的轶事经历。

I'm confirming what you said.

我正在确认你所说的。

Dextromethorphan is a different sort of opioid.

右美沙芬是一种不同类型的阿片类药物。

And actually, some people develop a problem with it, for me, it gives me really bizarre dreams.

事实上，有些人对此产生了问题，对我来说，它给了我非常奇怪的梦想。

Really similar to what you were describing.

确实和你描述的很相似。

Andrew Huberman: It was very unusual.

安德鲁·休伯曼：这很不寻常。

Robert Malenka: And that's a whole different conversation about what makes us dream and what are the meaning of dreams.

罗伯特·马伦卡：关于什么让我们做梦以及梦的意义是什么，这是一个完全不同的对话。

Fascinating.

迷人。

I hope you covered.

我希望你涵盖了。

Maybe you've covered that.

也许你已经涵盖了这一点。

Andrew Huberman: We have.

安德鲁·休伯曼：我们有。

Not yet, but we are intending to do a whole series on sleep and dreaming, and we'll definitely get into it.

还没有，但我们打算制作一个关于睡眠和做梦的完整系列，我们一定会参与其中。

Robert Malenka: I started out in sleep research, so I have a fondness for it.

Robert Malenka：我一开始从事睡眠研究，所以我很喜欢它。

Andrew Huberman: Well, drug research and sleep research have a long history of overlap with Alan Hobson's work on--

安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯，药物研究和睡眠研究与艾伦·霍布森的工作有着悠久的重叠历史——

Robert Malenka: --I worked with Alan Hobson.

罗伯特·马伦卡：——我和艾伦·霍布森一起工作。

Andrew Huberman: Okay, by the way, folks, if you're interested in the relationship between hallucinations and dreaming, Alan Hobson is a good name to start your rabbit hole.

安德鲁·胡伯曼：好吧，顺便说一句，朋友们，如果你对幻觉和梦之间的关系感兴趣，艾伦·霍布森是一个很好的开始你的兔子洞的名字。

Robert Malenka: Oh, my God.

罗伯特·马伦卡：哦，天啊。

I'm dating myself.

我正在和自己约会。

I can't remember if it was '76 or '77, I worked with Alan Hobson as an undergraduate--

我不记得是 76 年还是 77 年，我本科时曾与艾伦·霍布森 (Alan Hobson) 一起工作——

--At Harvard Medical School--

——哈佛医学院——

--No, as an undergraduate at Harvard.

——不，作为哈佛大学的一名本科生。

He was at Harvard Medical School.

他曾就读于哈佛医学院。

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman: Amazing.

安德鲁·休伯曼：太棒了。

I love his writing, and I learned a lot from it.

我很喜欢他的作品，我从中学到了很多东西。

He was really ahead of his time.

他确实走在了时代的前面。

Robert Malenka: Yes, he was.

罗伯特·马伦卡：是的，他是。

Anybody who knows me won't believe this, but back then, I was a very shy, insecure 20 year old--

任何认识我的人都不会相信这一点，但那时候，我是一个非常害羞、没有安全感的20岁——

Andrew Huberman: --I would not have guessed--

安德鲁·休伯曼：——我没想到——

Robert Malenka: --who, even in medical school, I literally was not confident of my opinions at all.

罗伯特·马伦卡：——即使在医学院，我对自己的观点也完全没有信心。

I was very shy, thought all of the ideas I had must be obvious that I should never say them out loud.

我很害羞，认为我的所有想法一定是显而易见的，我永远不应该大声说出来。

Andrew Huberman: Do you mind if I ask, since you raised this, I think it's really important.

Andrew Huberman：您介意我问一下吗？既然您提出了这个问题，我认为这非常重要。

I mean, you have this incredible career track record.

我的意思是，你拥有令人难以置信的职业记录。

You're adored by your colleagues, you're highly respected, you've won just about every award there is to winning neuroscience.

你受到同事的喜爱，受到高度尊重，你赢得了神经科学领域的几乎所有奖项。

So was there something in particular that, was it an overnight thing where one day you woke up and thought, I actually believe in myself?

那么，有没有什么特别的事情，是一夜之间发生的事情，有一天你醒来并想，我真的相信自己？

But if you wouldn't mind sharing that, because I think before we get back into some of the science.

但如果你不介意分享这一点，因为我想在我们回到一些科学知识之前。

Science is a human endeavor, and most people listening are probably not scientists, but I think everybody deals with these issues of self-doubt, and people appear to have varying levels of confidence.

科学是人类的事业，大多数倾听的人可能不是科学家，但我认为每个人都会处理这些自我怀疑的问题，而且人们似乎有不同程度的自信。

But what happened?

但发生了什么？

Robert Malenka: Thank you for asking.

罗伯特·马伦卡：谢谢您的提问。

For me, it was a very gradual process.

对我来说，这是一个非常渐进的过程。

And as an undergraduate, as a medical student, even as a postdoc, yeah, I was very unsure of my ideas, of my intellectual abilities, of whether what I was thinking was really worthwhile.

作为一名本科生，作为一名医学生，甚至作为一名博士后，是的，我非常不确定我的想法，我的智力能力，我的想法是否真的值得。

So it was a very gradual process, I think.

所以我认为这是一个非常渐进的过程。

The increase in my confidence, I think, began when I was a postdoc, which is a training period after you've received a PhD or an MD, where you get additional research training.

我认为，我的信心的增强是从我担任博士后时开始的，这是在获得博士学位或医学博士学位后的一段培训期，您可以在其中接受额外的研究培训。

And I worked with a guy named Roger Nicoll at UCSF, and Roger was a very intellectually intense, very forceful individual.

我在加州大学旧金山分校与一个名叫罗杰·尼科尔的人一起工作，罗杰是一个非常聪明、非常有力量的人。

And I got involved in a field where, I mean, people, a little bit of a tangent, your listeners may think that scientists are these geeky individuals wearing white coats with no passion or emotion, and nothing could be further from the truth.

我参与的领域，我的意思是，人们，有点离题，你的听众可能会认为科学家是这些穿着白大褂的怪人，没有激情或情感，没有什么比事实更离谱的了。

The most successful scientists I know are pretty passionate and pretty intense about what they're working on and driven.

我认识的最成功的科学家对他们正在从事的工作和所推动的工作充满热情和热情。

And this is a gross generalization.

这是一个粗略的概括。

So, anyhow, during my postdoc, I started getting involved in a topic where there were vigorous arguments about phenomenology we were studying.

所以，无论如何，在我的博士后期间，我开始参与一个关于我们正在研究的现象学的激烈争论的话题。

So I had to develop a tougher and thicker skin.

所以我必须培养更坚韧、更厚的脸皮。

I had to be able to argue my side of the hypotheses we were generating.

我必须能够就我们所提出的假设提出我的观点。

So it started developing as a postdoc, and then it slowly evolved.

所以它是从博士后开始发展的，然后慢慢演变。

As an assistant professor, and for your listeners who don't know, I don't like to admit this, but I'm in my late sixties.

作为一名助理教授，对于不知道的听众，我不想承认这一点，但我已经六十多岁了。

I have been running my own lab for almost 40 years.

我经营自己的实验室已近 40 年了。

So gradually, as an assistant professor, I realized, hey, I can do this.

所以渐渐地，作为一名助理教授，我意识到，嘿，我可以做到这一点。

I can do science.

我可以做科学。

I can write papers that my colleagues seem to be interested in.

我可以写同事感兴趣的论文。

And then gradually, over then the next 10, 20, 30 years, I gained more and more confidence.

然后渐渐地，在接下来的10年、20年、30年里，我获得了越来越多的信心。

So for me, it was this very gradual build up of many different experiences where I developed some confidence that not all of my ideas are great, of course they're not, but it's okay to voice my opinion.

所以对我来说，正是这种逐渐积累的许多不同的经历让我产生了一些信心，即并非我所有的想法都很棒，当然不是，但表达我的意见是可以的。

It's okay to state my ideas and why I believe this and why I don't believe that.

可以陈述我的想法以及为什么我相信这个和为什么我不相信那个。

So that was my experience.

这就是我的经历。

Andrew Huberman: Thank you for sharing that, because I think people struggle with that very issue.

Andrew Huberman：谢谢您分享这一点，因为我认为人们在这个问题上苦苦挣扎。

And clearly, showing up again and again over a long period of time is helpful.

显然，在很长一段时间内一次又一次地出现是有帮助的。

But as you said, learning to trust one's ideas, just a brief anecdote when I was coming up in neuroscience, a few years behind you, 20 years behind me, not too many decades.

但正如你所说，学会相信自己的想法，只是我在神经科学领域起步时的一个简短的轶事，比你晚了几年，比我晚了20年，而不是太多几十年。

But I recall the incredible number of high profile papers on neuroplasticity and long term potentiation, long term depression.

但我记得有大量关于神经可塑性、长期增强、长期抑郁的高调论文。

These are terms related to the modification of synapses that Rob Malenka and Roger Nicoll pioneered.

这些术语与 Rob Malenka 和 Roger Nicoll 首创的突触修饰相关。

A big segment of that work.

这项工作的很大一部分。

And I remember seeing your names on papers, and I thought Roger worked for you.

我记得在文件上看到过你们的名字，我以为罗杰为你们工作。

Sorry, Roger.

对不起，罗杰。

Robert Malenka: I love to hear that.

罗伯特·马伦卡：我喜欢听这个。

Andrew Huberman: I was under the impression he worked for you.

Andrew Huberman：我的印象是他为你工作。

And only later did I learn that you were his postdoc.

后来我才知道你是他的博士后。

Robert Malenka: And then we collaborated as equals.

罗伯特·马伦卡：然后我们平等地合作。

Andrew Huberman: You became peers very quickly.

Andrew Huberman：你们很快就成为了同事。

Robert Malenka: Very quickly.

罗伯特·马伦卡：很快。

Andrew Huberman: Roger's wonderful.

安德鲁·休伯曼：罗杰很棒。

Robert Malenka: I did have the confidence, even as a postdoc, actually, even as a grad student, even though I was a little insecure about my ideas.

罗伯特·马伦卡：我确实有信心，即使作为一名博士后，实际上，即使作为一名研究生，尽管我对自己的想法有点不安全。

I wanted to be treated as an equal.

我希望被平等对待。

That's the one thing I did have.

这是我所拥有的一件事。

I never felt that I was working for somebody else.

我从来没有觉得自己是在为别人工作。

I always felt that I was working for myself and that we were colleagues, even though my mentors had more experience and I could learn from them.

我总觉得我是在为自己工作，我们是同事，尽管我的导师经验丰富，我可以向他们学习。

Andrew Huberman: I like that you're working for yourself even though you have mentors.

Andrew Huberman：我喜欢你为自己工作，尽管你有导师。

I think there's some real gems in what you just described.

我认为你刚才描述的内容中有一些真正的精华。

So thank you for taking the time to do that.

感谢您抽出时间来做这件事。

Robert Malenka: Sure.

罗伯特·马伦卡：当然。

Andrew Huberman: I'd like to discuss one aspect of reward circuitry that I don't think most people think about.

Andrew Huberman：我想讨论奖励回路的一个方面，我认为大多数人都没有想到这一点。

It's fairly straightforward nowadays.

如今这相当简单。

I like to think more people know what dopamine is and understand it, thanks to your work and Anna's work and some discussions that have taken place on our podcast and other podcasts.

我希望更多的人知道多巴胺是什么并理解它，这要归功于您和安娜的工作以及我们的播客和其他播客上进行的一些讨论。

But all too often we think dopamine, reward, wanting, liking drugs.

但我们常常会想到多巴胺、奖励、想要、喜欢毒品。

Okay, all of that is great, but what about the truly adaptive stuff, right?

好吧，所有这些都很棒，但是真正自适应的东西呢，对吗？

Because it's easy to fall into a discussion around dopamine of the things that are bad for us.

因为我们很容易陷入关于多巴胺对我们有害的事情的讨论。

But what I'm thinking about here is social interaction.

但我在这里思考的是社交互动。

Clearly, we are a social species, and a lot of your work in the last decade and a half or so has focused on the relationship between the reward circuitry, which you beautifully described for us, and social interaction and connection.

显然，我们是一个社会物种，在过去十五年左右的时间里，您的许多工作都集中在奖励回路（您为我们进行了精彩的描述）与社交互动和联系之间的关系上。

And where I'm going with this is ultimately, this has huge implications for autism and autism spectrum disorders.

我最终想说的是，这对自闭症和自闭症谱系障碍具有巨大的影响。

I don't know if, nowadays, is it okay?

不知道现在还好吗？

You're not supposed to call autism a disease, is that right?

你不应该称自闭症为一种疾病，对吗？

You hear about neurotypical and neuro atypical, but I have friends who have children who are severely autistic.

你听说过神经典型和神经非典型，但我有朋友的孩子患有严重自闭症。

And I don't know many parents who would elect to have a severely autistic kid.

我不知道有多少父母会选择生一个患有严重自闭症的孩子。

And so those people often will talk about it as autism or a child having autism.

因此，这些人经常将其称为自闭症或患有自闭症的孩子。

So first of all, before we get into the social piece, maybe because I just tabled it, how are we supposed to talk about autism nowadays?

首先，在我们进入社交部分之前，也许是因为我刚刚提出这个问题，现在我们应该如何谈论自闭症？

Robert Malenka: I am very interested in the pathophysiology of what the medical profession terms autism spectrum disorder.

罗伯特·马伦卡：我对医学界所说的自闭症谱系障碍的病理生理学非常感兴趣。

As you pointed out, individuals living with an autism spectrum disorder are quite heterogeneous, and it can range from individuals with severe intellectual impairment and quite severe impairments in social interactions, impairments in sensory processing, impairments in lots of different aspects of our behaviors that are important.

正如您所指出的，患有自闭症谱系障碍的个体具有很大的异质性，其范围可能包括严重智力障碍和社交互动严重障碍、感觉处理障碍、我们行为的许多不同方面的障碍。

And I think nobody would say, would argue, those individuals on the severe spectrum do not have some sort of "disorder." The issue we have to be sensitive to is it's a heterogeneous disorder.

我认为没有人会说，也不会争辩说，那些处于严重范围内的人没有某种“疾病”。我们必须敏感的问题是它是一种异质性疾病。

Like many brain issues that psychiatrists deal with, like depression, like obsessive compulsive disorder, like various anxiety disorders, it's always on a continuum and a spectrum.

就像精神科医生处理的许多大脑问题一样，比如抑郁症、强迫症、各种焦虑症，它总是处于一个连续体和一个谱系上。

So for autism spectrum disorder, there are individuals who are high functioning who, one could argue, have a different style of interacting socially, may have a different way of processing sensory information, but who would prefer not to be viewed as having an illness, but rather would be viewed as having a different style of living and interaction.

因此，对于自闭症谱系障碍，有人可能会说，有些人具有高功能，他们有不同的社交互动方式，可能有不同的处理感官信息的方式，但他们不希望被视为患有疾病，而是希望被视为具有不同的生活方式和互动方式。

And I think we need to respect that.

我认为我们需要尊重这一点。

So the challenge is, again, not oversimplifying a complex heterogeneous disorder and both being respectful of the people who don't want to be defined as having a neuropsychiatric or brain disorder, while equally being respectful of people like your friends with severely impaired children who deserve help, who deserve research.

因此，挑战再次在于，不要过度简化复杂的异质性疾病，既要尊重那些不想被定义为患有神经精神或大脑疾病的人，又要尊重像你的朋友这样患有严重受损儿童的人，他们值得帮助，值得研究。

And it's a tough one, because my understanding from, to be honest, just reading articles in the lay press and going to websites from organizations that philanthropically support research related to autism, within that community of individuals who are not researchers, but who have family members or are themselves dealing with some degree of autism spectrum disorder, there's disagreements about what terminology to use, how to deal with them, and it's complicated.

这是一个艰难的问题，因为说实话，我的理解是，只要阅读普通媒体上的文章，访问慈善支持自闭症相关研究的组织的网站，在那些不是研究人员、但有家庭成员或自己正在处理某种程度的自闭症谱系障碍的个人社区中，对于使用什么术语、如何处理它们存在分歧，而且这很复杂。

I think we just have to respect everybody.

我认为我们必须尊重每个人。

And if you're interacting with individuals, I think it's appropriate.

如果你是在与个人互动，我认为这是合适的。

What do you prefer?

你更喜欢什么？

I do know as a medical professional, and especially when you're dealing with children, there are children who need help and we're not doing them a service by saying they don't have an issue that we should be helping them with and working on.

我确实知道，作为一名医疗专业人员，尤其是当你与儿童打交道时，有些孩子需要帮助，而我们并没有通过说他们没有我们应该帮助他们解决的问题来为他们提供服务。

So I hope that answers your question beautifully.

所以我希望这能很好地回答你的问题。

Andrew Huberman: I think it beautifully answers it and encompasses all sides so that we can move forward.

Andrew Huberman：我认为它很好地回答了这个问题，并涵盖了各个方面，以便我们能够继续前进。

So as we use the term autism or children or people with autism, that's what we're referring to.

因此，当我们使用“自闭症”或“儿童”或“患有自闭症的人”这个术语时，这就是我们所指的。

Robert Malenka: I think people are very sensitive, especially those individuals who are neuro atypical, who previously might be diagnosed as autism spectrum disorder, but would prefer to not be labeled as having a brain illness.

罗伯特·马伦卡：我认为人们非常敏感，尤其是那些神经非典型的人，他们以前可能被诊断为自闭症谱系障碍，但不希望被贴上患有脑部疾病的标签。

That's fine.

没关系。

Once you are an adult, you can make that decision for yourself.

一旦你成年了，你就可以自己做出决定。

Andrew Huberman: We certainly have colleagues at Stanford and elsewhere who, at least by my non clinical assessment, seem to fall somewhere on that spectrum.

安德鲁·胡伯曼：我们当然有斯坦福大学和其他地方的同事，至少根据我的非临床评估，他们似乎属于这个范围。

Robert Malenka: And again, it's a continuum.

罗伯特·马伦卡：再说一遍，这是一个连续体。

Just as the experience of depression is a continuum.

正如抑郁症的经历是一个连续体一样。

Andrew Huberman: As with depression, you wouldn't love a child or an adult any less because they have depression, nor would you love a child or an adult any less because of expression of some autism.

安德鲁·休伯曼：与抑郁症一样，你不会因为孩子或成人患有抑郁症而减少对他们的爱，也不会因为孩子或成人表现出某种自闭症而减少对他们的爱。

Robert Malenka: I know the point, we are being trained in the medical profession to be very, and our society is going this way too, very careful with the terms we use and the labeling of individuals.

罗伯特·马伦卡：我知道这一点，我们正在接受医学专业的培训，我们的社会也在走这条路，对我们使用的术语和个人标签非常谨慎。

So I've been taught you can say individuals living with an autism spectrum disorder.

所以我被告知你可以说患有自闭症谱系障碍的人。

Some people don't like using the term, oh, that individual is autistic, because that can have some, I don't want to say derogatory meaning, but some labeling kind of.

有些人不喜欢使用这个词，哦，那个人是自闭症患者，因为这可能有一些，我不想说贬义，而是一些标签。

But sometimes this gets out of control, too, as we both know.

但正如我们都知道的那样，有时这种情况也会失控。

Andrew Huberman: Well, for sake of fluid conversation, we will do our best, but we will acknowledge from the outset that we are well meaning but far from perfect in how we'll handle this.

Andrew Huberman：嗯，为了对话流畅，我们会尽力而为，但我们从一开始就承认我们是善意的，但在如何处理这个问题上还远远不够完美。

Robert Malenka: Well put.

罗伯特·马伦卡：说得好。

Well put.

说得好。

Andrew Huberman: So, in thinking about social interactions and leaving aside anything related to autism, for the moment, it appears that the circuits in the brain that mediate the desire to spend time with others of the same species, maybe even with other species like a dog, are fairly hardwired but modifiable.

安德鲁·休伯曼：因此，在考虑社交互动并暂时抛开与自闭症相关的任何事情时，大脑中调节与同一物种的其他物种（甚至可能与狗等其他物种）共度时光的愿望的回路似乎是相当硬连线的，但可以修改。

We were born with the capacity to build them up and that social behavior is highly rewarded.

我们生来就有能力培养这些能力，并且社会行为会得到高度回报。

Is it rewarded through the dopamine system?

是通过多巴胺系统奖励的吗？

And what, if any, involvement is there of the serotonergic system?

如果有的话，血清素能系统与什么有关？

And we haven't talked about serotonin yet, but I'd love to bring up serotonin at this point.

我们还没有讨论过血清素，但我很想现在谈谈血清素。

Maybe you could educate us a little bit about serotonin, because, gosh, if dopamine is fascinating, serotonin is at least as incredible.

也许你可以告诉我们一些关于血清素的知识，因为，天哪，如果多巴胺令人着迷，那么血清素至少也同样令人难以置信。

Robert Malenka: Yeah, great question.

罗伯特·马伦卡：是的，很好的问题。

So I think for me, the easiest way for me to answer it is, actually just tell you, my research history and how a lab like mine at Stanford that at one point was studying what you and I would call fairly hardcore molecular mechanisms of neuroplasticity.

所以我认为对我来说，回答这个问题最简单的方法就是，实际上只是告诉你，我的研究历史，以及像我在斯坦福大学这样的实验室曾经如何研究你我所说的相当核心的神经可塑性分子机制。

How do connections between nerve cells change and what molecules are changing?

神经细胞之间的连接如何改变以及哪些分子正在改变？

And pretty hardcore molecular stuff.

还有相当核心的分子东西。

How did I end up studying social behaviors in mice?

我是如何最终研究老鼠的社会行为的？

And what I hope we'll end up talking about, even developing behavioral models of what I will define as empathy in mice.

我希望我们最终会讨论什么，甚至开发我将定义为小鼠同理心的行为模型。

The answer is very simple.

答案很简单。

My lab was working on roles of classic dopamine reward circuitry and how it changes in models of addiction.

我的实验室正在研究经典多巴胺奖励回路的作用及其在成瘾模型中的变化。

We haven't talked about depression models of depression, because just intuitively, hopefully, your listeners can understand if one component of depression is what we call anhedonia, the inability to experience reward.

我们还没有讨论抑郁症的抑郁模型，因为希望听众能够直观地理解抑郁症的一个组成部分是否就是我们所说的快感缺失，即无法体验奖励。

Eating a donut is no longer satisfying.

吃甜甜圈已经不再满足。

Having sex is no longer that much fun, which is a component of depression.

做爱不再那么有趣，这是抑郁症的一个组成部分。

If there's a mechanism in the brain that tells you something is rewarding, by definition, that's not functioning normally in severe depression.

如果大脑中有一种机制告诉你某些事情是有益的，那么根据定义，这种机制在严重抑郁症中就无法正常运作。

So we were doing models of depression to figure out how the dopamine reward circuitry was changing, as were many other labs.

因此，我们正在研究抑郁症模型，以弄清楚多巴胺奖励回路是如何变化的，就像许多其他实验室一样。

We were studying addiction.

我们正在研究成瘾。

Those were the obvious ones.

这些是显而易见的。

And, I mean, it might be entertaining to your audience to learn how academic scientists think.

而且，我的意思是，了解学术科学家的想法可能会让你的听众很有趣。

I was thinking, those are fascinating topics.

我在想，这些都是有趣的话题。

They're pretty competitive.

他们很有竞争力。

Lots of other labs were working on it.

许多其他实验室正在研究它。

And I started thinking what other experiences might be modifying the reward circuitry.

我开始思考还有哪些其他经历可能会改变奖励回路。

I actually made some attempts to look at feeding behavior, but we actually never pursued that for a variety of reasons.

我实际上尝试过研究喂养行为，但由于各种原因我们实际上从未进行过研究。

And that's obviously important because there is an obesity epidemic in this country.

这显然很重要，因为这个国家肥胖流行。

And we can talk about how the reward circuitry and some of the things we've learned from our studies of addiction may be helpful to understanding obesity.

我们可以讨论奖励回路以及我们从成瘾研究中学到的一些东西如何有助于理解肥胖。

But back to social interaction.

但回到社交互动。

I started thinking, well, for most of us, what I call a pro social, non sexual experience is highly reinforcing.

我开始思考，对于我们大多数人来说，我所说的亲社会的、非性的经历是高度强化的。

Andrew, you're a pretty social guy.

安德鲁，你是一个很社交的人。

I'm a pretty social guy.

我是一个很社交的人。

Most of the time, I'd rather go to a movie, a sporting event, a dinner with friends.

大多数时候，我宁愿去看电影、观看体育赛事、与朋友共进晚餐。

Actually, for me, the most meaningful component of my life, other than spending time with my children, is spending time with my close friends.

其实，对我来说，人生中最有意义的部分，除了和孩子们在一起，就是和我的好朋友们在一起。

And I started thinking, well, why is that?

我开始思考，这是为什么呢？

Why do I have such a good time going to a ball game with my best friend or going out to dinner with another couple and interacting?

为什么我和最好的朋友一起去看球赛或者和另一对情侣出去吃饭并互动时玩得这么开心？

It's because, well, it's highly reinforcing.

这是因为，嗯，它具有很强的强化作用。

And if it's highly reinforcing, it must involve the reward circuitry.

如果它是高度强化的，那么它一定涉及奖励回路。

And then I started thinking, evolutionarily, it makes a lot of sense, because if you are part of a social species, there's a lot of advantages for your survival to be hanging out with other members of your species in a non aggressive way.

然后我开始思考，从进化的角度来看，这是很有意义的，因为如果你是一个社会物种的一部分，那么以非攻击性的方式与你的物种的其他成员一起闲逛对你的生存有很多好处。

It can increase your likelihood to find a mate and reproduce.

它可以增加你找到伴侣和繁殖的可能性。

It can protect you from predators.

它可以保护您免受掠食者的侵害。

I mean, that's why any of your listeners who ever watch wildlife shows or National Geographic shows, there's a reason all these animals hang out together.

我的意思是，这就是为什么任何看过野生动物节目或国家地理节目的听众都会发现所有这些动物在一起闲逛是有原因的。

It's for protection from predators.

这是为了保护免受掠食者的侵害。

So there are all these reasons.

所以有所有这些原因。

So, about, whenever it was, 13 or 14 years ago, my lab decided to start looking at how the reward circuitry may play a role in what I am going to call positive, pro social, nonaggressive interactions.

因此，大约在 13 或 14 年前，我的实验室决定开始研究奖励回路如何在我所说的积极、有利于社交、非攻击性的互动中发挥作用。

Another word we use is just sociability.

我们使用的另一个词是社交性。

And for a variety of reasons back then, this is at least 13 years ago, maybe 15 years ago, a postdoc joined my lab named Gul Dolen.

由于当时的种种原因，至少 13 年前，也许 15 年前，一位名叫 Gul Dolen 的博士后加入了我的实验室。

She's now a professor at Johns Hopkins, and she had an interest in oxytocin.

她现在是约翰霍普金斯大学的教授，她对催产素很感兴趣。

And as your listeners know, oxytocin is this evolutionarily conserved neuropeptide that's very important for parturition, having a baby born for milk being produced.

正如听众所知，催产素是一种进化上保守的神经肽，对于分娩非常重要，婴儿的出生是为了产生乳汁。

And it's gotten a lot of attention as a potential love neuropeptide, as something that is released in our brains during a positive social interaction.

作为一种潜在的爱情神经肽，它作为一种在积极的社交互动过程中在我们的大脑中释放的东西而受到了广泛的关注。

There's a well known researcher in social behavior and bonding research called Larry Young, and he did some very important, now somewhat classic work studying a species called the vole, in particular, the prairie vole.

拉里·杨（Larry Young）是一位社会行为和关系研究领域的著名研究员，他做了一些非常重要的、现在有些经典的工作，研究了一种叫做田鼠的物种，特别是草原田鼠。

And prairie voles are a species where they mate for life.

草原田鼠是终生交配的物种。

It's called pair bonding.

这就是所谓的配对。

So one vole will find another vole.

所以一只田鼠会找到另一只田鼠。

They basically get married, they have kids, and they hang out together for the rest of their life.

他们基本上结婚了，生了孩子，余生都在一起度过。

No divorce, no 50% divorce rate.

没有离婚，没有50%的离婚率。

And what Larry elegantly showed in early days, in collaboration with a guy named Tom Insel, who is a famous academic psychiatrist, they showed that oxytocin action within the nucleus accumbens, within this reward circuitry, was required and really important for this monogamous pair bonding.

拉里早期与一位名叫汤姆·英塞尔（Tom Insel）的著名学术精神病学家合作，优雅地展示了这一点，他们表明，伏隔核内的催产素作用，在这个奖励回路中，对于这种一夫一妻制的结合是必需的，而且非常重要。

Having said that, there was just a paper that called that into question.

话虽如此，只有一篇论文对此提出了质疑。

Andrew Huberman: But there's 30 years of research prior to that.

Andrew Huberman：但在此之前已经进行了 30 年的研究。

I'm glad you brought that up, because we'll keep this contemporary.

我很高兴你提出这个问题，因为我们会保持这个当代性。

And the reality is that that recent paper got a lot of attention.

事实上，最近的那篇论文引起了很多关注。

Robert Malenka: You know the paper I'm talking about.

罗伯特·马伦卡：你知道我正在谈论的那篇论文。

Andrew Huberman: Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。

That maybe oxytocin isn't playing as prominent role in pair bonding as people had thought.

也许催产素在夫妻关系中并没有像人们想象的那样发挥重要作用。

And yet, folks, that could be true.

然而，朋友们，这可能是真的。

We have to be scientific about this and be open minded.

我们必须对此保持科学态度并保持开放的态度。

But there's three decades of work that speaks to the contrary.

但三十年来的研究却证明了相反的情况。

So I think we want to weigh the evidence.

所以我认为我们要权衡证据。

Robert Malenka: Yeah, exactly.

罗伯特·马伦卡：是的，完全正确。

And again, the investigators who presented the work saying oxytocin may not be as important.

提出这项研究的研究人员再次表示，催产素可能没那么重要。

There are limitations to the manipulations they did, which they would agree with.

他们所做的操纵是有限制的，他们会同意这一点。

So I'm just telling you.

所以我只是告诉你。

So, Gul Dolen was a postdoc in my lab, and we formulated a project to look at the actions of oxytocin in the nucleus accumbens in mice.

因此，古尔·多伦（Gul Dolen）是我实验室的博士后，我们制定了一个项目来研究催产素在小鼠伏核中的作用。

And the reason we study mice is they're what are known as genetically tractable organisms.

我们研究老鼠的原因是它们是所谓的基因易驯化的生物体。

We have all sorts of really cool and sophisticated tricks we can do to probe brain circuitry.

我们可以使用各种非常酷且复杂的技巧来探测大脑回路。

The actions of neuromodulators like dopamine and serotonin and oxytocin in ways that we can't do in other species.

多巴胺、血清素和催产素等神经调节剂的作用是我们在其他物种中无法做到的。

And I'm going to get back to dopamine in a second.

我稍后会回到多巴胺。

And what we found was that oxytocin action in the nucleus accumbens was indeed important for promoting sociability, probably for promoting the reinforcing component of a social interaction.

我们发现，伏隔核中的催产素作用确实对于促进社交性很重要，可能对于促进社交互动的强化部分也很重要。

And that surprised us.

这让我们感到惊讶。

It was like, wow, oxytocin seems to be causing, enhancing the release of serotonin in the nucleus accumbens, and that perhaps we'll get to this.

就像，哇，催产素似乎会导致伏隔核中血清素的释放增强，也许我们会做到这一点。

That led me off on a whole series of experiments trying to figure out how serotonin works.

这导致我进行了一系列实验，试图弄清楚血清素是如何发挥作用的。

Studying this drug we may talk about called MDMA, which is Ecstasy, or Molly, which actually causes release of serotonin.

研究这种药物时，我们可能会谈论称为 MDMA（摇头丸）或 Molly（莫莉），它实际上会导致血清素的释放。

So we did that work, and that got us working in serotonin simultaneously.

所以我们做了这项工作，这让我们同时研究血清素。

There were some other papers reporting that dopamine release in the accumbens.

还有其他一些论文报道了伏隔核中多巴胺的释放。

That dopamine is released in the accumbens during a social interaction, a positive, non aggressive social interaction.

多巴胺在社交互动过程中在伏隔层释放，这是一种积极的、非攻击性的社交互动。

Truth be told, it may also be released during an aggressive interaction.

说实话，它也可能在攻击性互动过程中释放。

Andrew Huberman: Some people like to fight.

安德鲁·休伯曼：有些人喜欢打架。

Robert Malenka: Some people like to fight.

罗伯特·马伦卡：有些人喜欢打架。

And the difference here is the dopamine release and its role in social interactions.

这里的区别在于多巴胺的释放及其在社交互动中的作用。

It's not specific only for a social interaction, as we have talked about, but nevertheless, that led my lab and other labs to do a series of papers.

正如我们所讨论的，它不仅仅针对社交互动，但尽管如此，这还是导致我的实验室和其他实验室发表了一系列论文。

I'm talking about the field now showing that, and I'm giving you a lot of information here.

我正在谈论现在正在展示这一点的领域，并且我在这里向您提供了很多信息。

So how might dopamine release happen during a nonaggressive social interaction?

那么，在非攻击性的社交互动中，多巴胺的释放是如何发生的呢？

It turns out that oxytocin is not only released in the nucleus accumbens, it's released in the home of the dopamine neurons in the VTA.

事实证明，催产素不仅在伏隔核中释放，还在腹侧被盖区的多巴胺神经元中释放。

So, my lab and another lab from Northwestern showed that oxytocin can actually modulate dopamine neuron activity in the ventral tegmental area.

因此，我的实验室和西北大学的另一个实验室表明，催产素实际上可以调节腹侧被盖区的多巴胺神经元活动。

So I hope I'm making sense here.

所以我希望我在这里说得有道理。

I don't want to get too technical.

我不想太技术化。

Andrew Huberman: No, I think--

安德鲁·休伯曼：不，我认为——

Robert Malenka: --But it just shows how we discuss these neuromodulators like dopamine.

罗伯特·马伦卡：——但这只是展示了我们如何讨论多巴胺等神经调节剂。

I just brought in oxytocin.

我刚带了催产素。

We're going to talk about serotonin in a second.

我们稍后将讨论血清素。

Unfortunately for your listeners, they don't work in isolation.

对于你的听众来说不幸的是，他们不能孤立地工作。

They influence each other in ways that I think it's important for us to understand and elucidate.

它们相互影响的方式对我们来说理解和阐明很重要。

Andrew Huberman: That is not too much technical detail, and I think it's wonderfully rich with areas for us to discuss.

Andrew Huberman：这并不是太多的技术细节，我认为它有非常丰富的领域可供我们讨论。

And I'm so very glad that you brought up that neither dopamine or serotonin or oxytocin work in isolation, because all too often, and admittedly, sometimes even on my podcast, I'll talk about these things in isolation as a way to try and simplify them a bit.

我很高兴你提到多巴胺、血清素或催产素都不能孤立地发挥作用，因为我经常，不可否认，有时甚至在我的播客上，我会孤立地谈论这些事情，作为尝试和简化它们的一种方式。

But there's just no way that the brain works that way.

但大脑不可能那样工作。

For instance, turning on dopamine and turning off serotonin, it's a weighting of inputs, and I think that serotonin, perhaps I should frame it this way.

例如，打开多巴胺并关闭血清素，这是输入的权重，我认为血清素，也许我应该这样构建它。

Just as often as dopamine is framed, as this reward molecule and pleasure and dopamine hits, all too often, I think, in the popular press, serotonin is discussed, and oxytocin two, for that matter, as this kind of warm, feel good, everything's mellow, not really associated with a reward and reinforcement.

正如多巴胺经常被框定一样，当这种奖励分子、快乐和多巴胺袭来时，我认为，在大众媒体中，经常讨论血清素和催产素二，就此而言，因为这种温暖，感觉良好，一切都很柔和，与奖励和强化无关。

And of course, it's not that simple.

当然，事情并没有那么简单。

So when it comes to social interactions, it sounds like oxytocin and serotonin are playing a prominent role also in the accumbens.

因此，当谈到社交互动时，听起来催产素和血清素在伏隔核中也发挥着重要作用。

And that dopamine is activated, too.

多巴胺也被激活。

Do I have that right?

我有这个权利吗？

Okay, so I don't want to take us too far down the rabbit hole of neural circuit function, but that, to me, makes at least a brief discussion about the nucleus accumbens itself interesting.

好吧，我不想让我们在神经回路功能的兔子洞里走得太远，但对我来说，这至少让关于伏核本身的简短讨论变得有趣。

Like, okay, so I'm thinking nucleus, I know that means a pile of neurons, an aggregation of neurons.

就像，好吧，所以我在想细胞核，我知道这意味着一堆神经元，神经元的聚集。

It's talking to this ventral striatum.

它正在与腹侧纹状体对话。

So we got a bunch of--

所以我们得到了一堆——

Robert Malenka: --Part of the ventral striatum, part of the subdivision.

罗伯特·马伦卡：——腹侧纹状体的一部分，细分的一部分。

Andrew Huberman: Excuse me, I misspoke.

安德鲁·休伯曼：对不起，我说错了。

Yeah, it's part of the ventral striatum.

是的，它是腹侧纹状体的一部分。

And the neurons there can be active and communicate with other brain areas, but we're talking about a lot of nuance of function.

那里的神经元可以活跃并与其他大脑区域进行交流，但我们正在谈论很多功能的细微差别。

Robert Malenka: Oh, man, I'm smiling.

罗伯特·马伦卡：哦，伙计，我在微笑。

I don't know if your audience can see me smiling, because I sometimes go to bed feeling it's so complicated.

我不知道你们的观众是否能看到我的微笑，因为有时我上床睡觉时感觉这很复杂。

Oh, my God, it is.

哦，天哪，是的。

Andrew Huberman: And yet, could we say that within the nucleus accumbens, there are neurons that are acting as accelerators and brakes?

Andrew Huberman：然而，我们是否可以说，在伏隔核内，有一些神经元充当加速器和制动器？

Is there a simple analogy that perhaps, while not exhaustive, can still be true?

有没有一个简单的类比，尽管并不详尽，但仍然是正确的？

Because that's always the goal on this podcast.

因为这始终是这个播客的目标。

Sure, there's no way we can be exhaustive, but we want to be as accurate as possible.

当然，我们不可能做到面面俱到，但我们希望尽可能准确。

Robert Malenka: So, a very influential hypothesis, which has guided my thinking.

罗伯特·马伦卡：这是一个非常有影响力的假设，它指导了我的思考。

And again, the trick, you have done a wonderful job of communicating complex scientific topics to your podcast audience, and I congratulate you on that, and it's a really important role.

再说一遍，你在向播客观众传达复杂的科学主题方面做得非常出色，我对此表示祝贺，这是一个非常重要的角色。

But as you know, it's always more complicated than we want it to be as scientists, especially when you're dealing with brain activity issues and how the brain mediates all its amazing functions.

但正如你所知，它总是比我们作为科学家所希望的更复杂，尤其是当你处理大脑活动问题以及大脑如何调节其所有令人惊奇的功能时。

So, historically, we have thought about the nucleus accumbens and other components of this ventral striatal brain area as primarily being composed of two different cell types, and as you pointed out, one being sort of an accelerator, something that promotes certain behaviors, and the other cell type somewhat being a break saying, don't do that behavior, don't perform that motor action.

因此，从历史上看，我们认为伏隔核和腹侧纹状体大脑区域的其他组成部分主要由两种不同的细胞类型组成，正如您所指出的，一种细胞类型有点像加速器，促进某些行为，而另一种细胞类型有点像中断说，不要做那种行为，不要执行那种运动动作。

And it is true that there are these different cell types.

确实存在这些不同的细胞类型。

It is true that they are modulated by these modulators like dopamine and serotonin in different ways.

确实，它们受到多巴胺和血清素等调节剂以不同方式的调节。

And that simplistic hypothesis, or heuristic we call it, has been very useful in making models about how the accumbens does all its wonderful things.

这种简单化的假设，或者我们称之为启发式的假设，对于建立伏隔核如何发挥其所有奇妙作用的模型非常有用。

What I'm leading up to is, unfortunately, it's a little more complicated.

不幸的是，我要做的事情有点复杂。

But yes, there are two different cell types.

但是，是的，有两种不同的细胞类型。

And at least for your audience, we can think about dopamine driving the activity of one, promoting certain behaviors and inhibiting the activity of the other cell type, and being a sort of break on certain behaviors.

至少对于观众来说，我们可以认为多巴胺会驱动一种细胞的活动，促进某些行为并抑制另一种细胞类型的活动，并且是对某些行为的一种破坏。

As long as you and I, as scientists appreciate, it's not quite that simple.

正如科学家们所理解的，只要你和我，事情就不那么简单了。

It's a little more complicated.

情况有点复杂。

Andrew Huberman: So using that as a framework to think about social behavior, as you said, pro social, non aggressive, non sexual interactions involve the choice of a lot of behaviors, but also the suppression of a lot of behaviors.

安德鲁·胡伯曼：因此，用它作为思考社会行为的框架，正如你所说，亲社会、非攻击性、非性互动涉及很多行为的选择，但也涉及很多行为的抑制。

Maybe you're starting to sense what I'm doing here.

也许你开始感觉到我在这里所做的事情了。

I think for people to understand how a single structure like the accumbens could mediate social interaction and reward it, what it sounds like it's doing is rewarding a certain category and catalog of behavioral options and punishing, or at least reducing the probability of the occurrence of other behavioral actions.

我认为，为了让人们理解像伏隔核这样的单一结构如何调解社会互动并对其进行奖励，听起来它所做的就是奖励特定类别和目录的行为选择并进行惩罚，或者至少减少其他行为行为发生的可能性。

Because when I go to dinner with friends, if I know them really well, I might hug them.

因为当我和朋友一起吃饭时，如果我很了解他们，我可能会拥抱他们。

I might even say something mildly inappropriate if I know the context to be safe, right?

如果我知道上下文是安全的，我什至可能会说一些稍微不恰当的话，对吧？

But at a dinner interview or a discussion with somebody I barely know, I might watch my words a little bit more, for instance.

但例如，在晚餐采访或与我几乎不认识的人讨论时，我可能会多注意一下自己的措辞。

Robert Malenka: And I think the accumbens and its associated circuit, I love the way you just put that...

罗伯特·马伦卡：我认为伏隔核及其相关回路，我喜欢你刚才所说的方式......

Probabilities.

概率。

It's my probability of having this behavior in a certain context is increased.

我在特定情况下出现这种行为的可能性增加了。

The probabilities of not doing certain behaviors.

不执行某些行为的概率。

And I think there's little doubt that this brain area called the nucleus accumbens and all of its associated circuitry play a very important role in what behaviors you choose to do, pursue, play a very important role in these, making the decision and performing these pro social, non aggressive, non sexual interactions.

我认为毫无疑问，这个被称为伏隔核的大脑区域及其所有相关电路在你选择做什么、追求什么行为中发挥着非常重要的作用，在这些行为中发挥着非常重要的作用，做出决定并进行这些亲社会的、非攻击性的、非性的互动。

I actually also think it plays a role in empathy.

我实际上也认为它在同理心中发挥着作用。

I'm leading you there.

我带你去那里。

I want to have a discussion about that--

我想讨论一下这个问题——

Andrew Huberman: --Please--

安德鲁·休伯曼：——请——

Robert Malenka: --Again, as a mechanistically driven neuroscientist, what is frustrating for me is I know a lot of the connections it's making and the other brain areas it's communicating with.

罗伯特·马伦卡：——同样，作为一名机械驱动的神经科学家，令我沮丧的是我知道它正在建立的很多连接以及它正在与之通信的其他大脑区域。

But I can't give you a coherent hypothesis or diagram of how it all happens.

但我无法给你一个连贯的假设或图表来说明这一切是如何发生的。

Andrew Huberman: You're still going.

安德鲁·休伯曼：你还是要走。

Robert Malenka: What I can say is, even at our current level of understanding, it is leading to novel hypotheses that are allowing the development, perhaps if we bring it back to autism, that are allowing the development of novel at the moment, pharmacologic therapeutics that might be helpful for people who are not having normal pro social interactions and would like to have them, would like to be able to function in that domain in a more adaptive and productive and meaningful way.

罗伯特·马伦卡：我能说的是，即使在我们目前的理解水平上，它也正在导致新的假设的发展，也许如果我们把它带回自闭症，这将允许目前新的药物治疗的发展，这些药物疗法可能对那些没有正常的亲社会互动并希望拥有这种互动的人有帮助，希望能够以更具适应性、更富有成效和更有意义的方式在该领域发挥作用。

And that's the importance, in my view, of the kind of mechanistic work my lab and many other labs around the country are doing.

在我看来，这就是我的实验室和全国许多其他实验室正在进行的机械工作的重要性。

Even if we don't have a detailed understanding of how it's all happening, we can identify drugs and druggable targets, or even behavioral interventions that might actually help people, for example, suffering from autism spectrum disorder of the sort that they actually want and need interaction, need therapeutic help.

即使我们没有详细了解这一切是如何发生的，我们也可以识别药物和可药物靶标，甚至可能真正帮助人们的行为干预，例如，患有自闭症谱系障碍的人，他们实际上想要并需要互动，需要治疗帮助。

Andrew Huberman: I think looking at the social connection circuitry through the lens of autism is going to be very interesting for us to do.

安德鲁·胡伯曼：我认为通过自闭症的视角来观察社会联系回路对我们来说将是非常有趣的。

I do have a question about what is being selected for in rewarding social interactions, because obviously we are living in a time where we don't have to aggregate in groups, necessarily to protect ourselves physically.

我确实有一个关于奖励社交互动的选择是什么的问题，因为显然我们生活在一个我们不必聚集在一起的时代，不必为了保护自己的身体而聚集。

It helps in certain ways in certain circumstances, but certainly to support ourselves and each other emotionally.

它在某些情况下以某些方式有所帮助，但肯定会在情感上支持我们自己和彼此。

Having people that we can call on when we're not feeling so well, that we can look to for resources and that they can look to us.

当我们感觉不太舒服时，我们可以向他们求助，我们可以向他们寻求资源，他们也可以向我们寻求帮助。

But when we go out to dinner with friends, or we go to a ball game with friends, or we interact with friends, I'm very familiar with the feeling of like, well, that felt really good.

但是当我们和朋友出去吃饭，或者和朋友去看球赛，或者和朋友互动的时候，我很熟悉那种感觉，嗯，感觉真的很好。

It just felt good.

感觉很好。

It gives me energy.

它给了我能量。

It actually gives me energy to go back and do other things, like spend four days alone with a bunch of papers and lectures, preparing for a podcast, which I also really enjoy.

它实际上让我有精力回去做其他事情，比如花四天时间独自处理一堆论文和讲座，准备播客，我也很喜欢。

But when I do that, when I go out to dinner with friends or see friends, I'm not thinking about buffering myself against loneliness.

但当我这样做时，当我和朋友出去吃饭或见朋友时，我并没有考虑如何缓冲自己的孤独感。

When I do it, I just like the interaction.

当我这样做时，我只是喜欢这种互动。

So what sorts of evolutionary hypotheses can we come up with as to why the human brain is so tuned for these social interactions?

那么，我们可以提出什么样的进化假设来解释为什么人类大脑如此适合这些社交互动呢？

Why it's rewarded by not just one, dopamine, but also serotonin and oxytocin?

为什么它不仅受到多巴胺这一物质的奖励，而且还受到血清素和催产素的奖励？

Three prominent neuromodulatory chemicals in the brain are devoted at one site in the brain and others that it's connected to, of course, but to making sure that we do this as often as possible without giving up the rest of our lives.

当然，大脑中三种重要的神经调节化学物质专门分布在大脑的一个部位和与之相连的其他部位，但要确保我们尽可能经常地这样做，而不放弃我们的余生。

Robert Malenka: Well, again, I think the answer I'm going to be able to give, I hope, it's not right, and it may be a little bit obvious, is in some ways it's analogous to why drugs of abuse and addiction are also a problem, is that the circuitry that is telling us a pro social positive interaction is so highly reinforcing, evolved over millions of years, or hundreds of thousands of years, whatever that is.

罗伯特·马伦卡：嗯，我想我能够给出的答案是，我希望，这是不对的，而且可能有点明显，在某些方面，它类似于为什么滥用药物和成瘾也是一个问题，是告诉我们有利于社会积极互动的电路是如此高度强化，经过数百万年或数十万年的进化，无论是什么。

And the only hypothesis I can come up with, and Andrew, you may be able to come up with better ones, is what I alluded to earlier, is that it was very adaptive when we were more primitive organisms, never mind non human primates, but when we were whatever we were, to be a social species for basically primarily two reasons, for reproductive purposes, it increased your likelihood of reproducing if you were hanging out with other members of your species in a non aggressive way and for protection against predators.

我能提出的唯一假设，安德鲁，你也许能提出更好的假设，就是我之前提到的，当我们还是更原始的有机体时，它是非常具有适应性的，更不用说非人类灵长类动物了，但当我们成为一个社会物种时，基本上主要有两个原因，出于繁殖目的，如果你以非攻击性的方式与你的物种的其他成员一起闲逛，并且为了防止捕食者，它会增加你繁殖的可能性。

And there may be other reasons, probably.

可能还有其他原因。

Andrew Huberman: Child rearing in your absence, you want trusted friends that can watch your offspring.

Andrew Huberman：在您不在的情况下抚养孩子，您需要值得信赖的朋友来照顾您的后代。

Robert Malenka: Thank you.

罗伯特·马伦卡：谢谢。

Very good point.

非常好的一点。

So the circuits, the modulators we use, that evolved over millennia, and as you pointed out, eventually, depending on the society in which you live, you didn't need those social interactions for protection against predators.

因此，我们使用的电路，即调节器，已经进化了数千年，正如您所指出的，最终，根据您所生活的社会，您不需要这些社会互动来抵御掠食者。

Although if we look at our world now, one can make arguments both ways.

尽管如果我们现在看看我们的世界，人们可以从两个方面进行争论。

If you're in a war zone, is it better to be off by yourself?

如果你身处战区，独自离开是不是更好？

Is it better to be with a group of people?

和一群人在一起更好吗？

But so the mechanisms evolved for one purpose, and they don't just disappear because there's no disadvantage to having this mechanism that tells us a social interaction is reinforcing.

但这些机制是为了一个目的而进化的，而且它们并不会消失，因为拥有这种告诉我们社交互动正在加强的机制并没有什么缺点。

And I would still argue there's benefit for reproductive purposes.

我仍然认为这对生殖目的有好处。

You can't have kids if you're by yourself all the time.

如果你总是一个人，你就不可能生孩子。

Well, this is actually, I think it's impossible, at least currently, and you can't find a partner with whom to have kids if you're socially isolated or it makes it much harder.

嗯，这实际上是，我认为这是不可能的，至少目前是这样，如果你在社会上被孤立，你就找不到一个可以生孩子的伴侣，或者这会让事情变得更加困难。

So I hope I'm answering your question.

所以我希望我能回答你的问题。

And then, as you pointed out, for many of us, there's a lot of positive aspects to having friendships and hanging out with your friends.

然后，正如您所指出的，对于我们许多人来说，建立友谊并与朋友一起出去玩有很多积极的方面。

Emotional support, emotional buffering--

情感支持、情感缓冲——

Andrew Huberman: --And feeling connected.

安德鲁·休伯曼：——感觉有联系。

There's something about feeling connected, this notion of feeling connected, and later we'll talk about psychedelics.

有一些关于感觉联系的东西，这种感觉联系的概念，稍后我们将讨论迷幻药。

But this notion of feeling connected has a lot to do with buffering loneliness.

但这种联系感的概念与缓解孤独感有很大关系。

When we are alone, the memories and the energy, for lack of a better word, that we feel in recalling social experiences and anticipating social experiences is really powerful.

当我们独处时，我们在回忆社会经历和预测社会经历时所感受到的记忆和能量，找不到更好的词来形容，是非常强大的。

You mentioned that people can't have children if they spend all their time alone.

你提到如果人们把所有的时间都花在一个人身上，他们就不可能生孩子。

I realize you're not on social media and more power to you.

我意识到你不在社交媒体上，你的权力更大。

But there's actually a prominent discussion on social media.

但社交媒体上实际上有一个引人注目的讨论。

There's an entire culture of young people, in particular young men these days, who, at least from what I understand in the research literature about this, are socially isolated, spending all their time online, maybe not even on social media, but are spending a lot of time online.

年轻人，尤其是现在的年轻人，有一种完整的文化，至少从我在研究文献中了解到的情况来看，他们在社会上是孤立的，他们把所有的时间都花在网上，甚至可能不在社交媒体上，但他们花了大量的时间在网上。

Video games, hiding in electronic landscapes, digital landscapes, and concern about mental health issues there, etc., concern about porn, overuse and addiction there, etc..

电子游戏，躲在电子景观、数字景观中，关注那里的心理健康问题等等，关注那里的色情、过度使用和成瘾等等。

But social media itself is an incredible phenomenon to consider in light of everything we're talking about.

但考虑到我们正在谈论的一切，社交媒体本身就是一个令人难以置信的现象。

Even though I am on all social media platforms and I am quite active there, I can't say that I've ever been on social media and experienced the kind of delight and thrill and persistent energy increase that I experience with in-person interaction.

尽管我在所有社交媒体平台上都非常活跃，但我不能说我曾经在社交媒体上体验过面对面互动时所体验到的那种喜悦、兴奋和持久的能量增长。

And yet social media, I have to assume, is capitalizing on some of these same reward mechanisms in presumably the nucleus accumbens.

然而，我不得不假设，社交媒体正在利用伏隔核中的一些相同的奖励机制。

So are there any data?

那么有数据吗？

I realize this is a hard experiment to do in mice, maybe impossible, but are there any data that you're aware of that shows that social media has a high addictive liability?

我意识到在老鼠身上做这个实验很困难，也许是不可能的，但你知道有什么数据表明社交媒体具有很高的成瘾性吗？

Or do we even need an experiment?

或者我们甚至需要一个实验吗？

Robert Malenka: I'm not sure we need an experiment.

罗伯特·马伦卡：我不确定我们是否需要进行实验。

I think it clearly does.

我认为显然是这样。

I agree with the point you're making.

我同意你提出的观点。

Although your podcast audience probably doesn't know who I am.

尽管您的播客观众可能不知道我是谁。

I am in my late sixties.

我已经六十多岁了。

I grew up--

我长大了——

Andrew Huberman: --Well, they know who you are now--

安德鲁·休伯曼：——好吧，他们现在知道你是谁了——

Robert Malenka: --I grew up before computers, before cell phones.

罗伯特·马伦卡：——我是在电脑和手机出现之前长大的。

So I still am a believer, perhaps in an old fashioned way, that physical interpersonal reactions are really important.

所以我仍然相信，也许以一种老式的方式，身体的人际反应非常重要。

Obviously there are advantages to being able to interact over social media for all sorts of reasons.

显然，出于各种原因，能够通过社交媒体进行互动有很多优势。

There's a lot of positive and good from that.

这有很多积极的一面和好处。

But back to your question.

但回到你的问题。

Can we get addicted?

我们可以上瘾吗？

I can't speak to social media.

我无法与社交媒体交谈。

I can speak, and Anna Lemki, I think, is much more able to eloquently describe the issues around this.

我可以说话，而且我认为安娜·莱姆基（Anna Lemki）更能够雄辩地描述与此相关的问题。

I can just talk from my own experience that my cell phone is and check, you know, this isn't social media, but checking my email messages, checking my texting, my text messages for me has a compulsive, addictive quality, like a lever press.

我可以根据我自己的经验来谈谈我的手机，然后检查一下，你知道，这不是社交媒体，但检查我的电子邮件，检查我的短信，我的短信对我来说有一种强迫性的、令人上瘾的品质，就像按下杠杆一样。

It's like a lever press for a mouse.

这就像鼠标的杠杆按下一样。

And part of that is my own personality.

其中一部分是我自己的个性。

Part of that is the immediate feedback.

其中一部分是即时反馈。

So you get from a social media post, from seeing your name mentioned, getting a message from one of your friends.

因此，您可以从社交媒体帖子中获得信息，从看到您的名字被提及，从您的一位朋友那里收到消息。

Sure, I like getting messages from my friends.

当然，我喜欢收到朋友的消息。

It means they're thinking about me.

这意味着他们在想我。

It means I'm part of their world.

这意味着我是他们世界的一部分。

I have no doubt it's activating my reward circuitry, not nearly to the degree that a hit of cocaine or an opioid would do.

我毫不怀疑它正在激活我的奖赏回路，但远没有达到服用可卡因或阿片类药物的程度。

I don't know what else to say about it.

我不知道对此还能说些什么。

I think as a society, we have to be aware of these issues, and it's really complicated how we manage, especially once you're an adult, you make your own decisions, for better or worse.

我认为作为一个社会，我们必须意识到这些问题，我们的管理方式确实很复杂，特别是一旦你成年了，你就可以自己做出决定，无论是好还是坏。

But it's a huge issue, obviously, for anybody who has children or is planning to have children and adults.

但显然，对于任何有孩子或计划生育孩子和成人的人来说，这都是一个大问题。

Andrew Huberman: On social media, I see lots of accounts of people that are 18 and older who spend a lot of time on there.

Andrew Huberman：在社交媒体上，我看到很多 18 岁及以上的人在社交媒体上花费了大量时间的账户。

And I'm not necessarily saying that's a bad thing.

我并不是说这是一件坏事。

A lot of people have entire careers that exist on social media.

很多人的整个职业生涯都存在于社交媒体上。

It just seems to me that Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn, Twitter have capitalized on this hardwired circuitry.

在我看来，Instagram、Facebook、LinkedIn、Twitter 都利用了这种硬连线电路。

I mean, to make it really reductionist, the release of serotonin, dopamine, and oxytocin by virtue of someone saying something to us, maybe not even a positive thing, maybe it's a negative thing.

我的意思是，为了使它真正还原论，通过某人对我们说了一些话而释放血清素、多巴胺和催产素，甚至可能不是一件积极的事情，也许这是一件消极的事情。

As you said, they're thinking of us.

正如你所说，他们正在考虑我们。

There's something about being recognized by others.

被别人认可是有一定道理的。

And maybe this is a good segue.

也许这是一个很好的延续。

We're heading towards empathy here.

我们正在走向同理心。

A discussion about empathy.

关于同理心的讨论。

Robert Malenka: I think that's very well put.

罗伯特·马伦卡：我认为说得很好。

It is capitalizing on these more primitive neurobiological mechanisms that evolved for purposes of reproduction and survival.

它正在利用这些为了繁殖和生存而进化的更原始的神经生物学机制。

I think that certainly has to be the case.

我认为情况肯定是这样。

And I think it's important.

我认为这很重要。

I mean, thank you for bringing that up for us as a society, to be at least aware of this.

我的意思是，感谢您为我们整个社会提出这一点，至少让我们意识到这一点。

And it's like many things, it's not all good, it's not all bad.

就像很多事情一样，不全是好事，也不全是坏事。

There are positive uses of social media, I can see, but mostly we read about the dangers of it.

我可以看到社交媒体有积极的用途，但我们大多数时候都读到了它的危险。

We read about these kids who are socially isolated, who make bad decisions based on what they're seeing with social media.

我们了解到这些孩子在社交上被孤立，他们根据在社交媒体上看到的内容做出错误的决定。

But anyhow, back to the neuroscience.

但无论如何，回到神经科学。

You're absolutely correct.

你是完全正确的。

It's capitalizing on these mechanisms that evolved for physical interpersonal interactions because our evolution didn't anticipate it, right?

它利用了这些为身体人际互动而进化的机制，因为我们的进化没有预见到它，对吗？

Andrew Huberman: Just as pornography is capitalizing on the sexual arousal reward circuit.

安德鲁·休伯曼：就像色情作品利用了性唤起奖励回路一样。

Associated reward--

相关奖励——

Robert Malenka: --No question about it.

罗伯特·马伦卡：——毫无疑问。

Just as the gambling industry does.

就像赌博业一样。

I mean, as you know, the Vegas casinos have full time people developing algorithms for how frequently should a slot machine pay off.

我的意思是，正如你所知，维加斯赌场有全职人员开发算法来确定老虎机应该多久赢一次钱。

You know, what's the perfect amount of payoff to keep certain individuals coming back?

您知道，要让某些人回来，最完美的回报是多少？

Andrew Huberman: So pernicious.

安德鲁·休伯曼：太有害了。

You can tell I've been spending a lot of time around addicts and former addicts.

你可以看出我花了很多时间与瘾君子和前瘾君子在一起。

I've been researching some things for the podcast and a gambling addict told me something interesting.

我一直在为播客研究一些东西，一位赌博成瘾者告诉我一些有趣的事情。

They said the real stinger with being a gambling addict is that the next time really could change everything, whereas no alcoholic says that, that the next drink could change everything for the better.

他们说，赌博成瘾者真正的痛苦在于，下一次真的可以改变一切，而酗酒者不会这么说，下一次喝酒可以让一切变得更好。

Or the cocaine addict doesn't think, oh, the next line of cocaine could make all of life better now and forever, whereas the gambling addict actually holds in mind the infinitesimally small and yet real potential that the next time really could wipe out their debt and perhaps wipe out...

或者可卡因成瘾者并不认为，哦，下一个系列的可卡因可以让所有人的生活变得更好，现在和永远，而赌博成瘾者实际上牢记着无限小但真正的潜力，下一次真的可以消除他们的债务，也许消除......

And yet we know they would lose that, too, right?

但我们知道他们也会失去这一点，对吗？

Whatever winnings they have.

无论他们有什么奖金。

Robert Malenka: And casinos are fully aware of this.

罗伯特·马伦卡：赌场充分意识到这一点。

I have been told by friends who know they employ full time quantitative, for lack of a better term, I was going to say computer geeks.

一些朋友告诉我，他们知道他们雇用的是全职定量人员，因为没有更好的术语，我想说的是计算机极客。

I don't mean that to be derogative.

我这么说并不是贬义的。

Andrew Huberman: And probably neuroscientists too.

Andrew Huberman：可能还有神经科学家。

Robert Malenka: I would be amazed if they don't have neuroscientists who have expertise in what's called neuroeconomics or behavioral economics.

罗伯特·马伦卡：如果他们没有拥有神经经济学或行为经济学专业知识的神经科学家，我会感到惊讶。

I'm 95% sure that has to be the case.

我 95% 确信情况一定是这样。

Andrew Huberman: I occasionally sit down to the roulette table because it’s just so passive and easy.

Andrew Huberman：我偶尔会坐在轮盘赌桌上，因为它是如此被动和简单。

And not long ago, actually, I had the experience of winning, not a large sum, but a meaningful sum of money.

事实上，不久前我有过中奖的经历，不是一大笔钱，而是一笔有意义的钱。

Robert Malenka: It's fun.

罗伯特·马伦卡：这很有趣。

Andrew Huberman: And I'll tell you, my sole mission at that point was to get up and go back to my room and not stop at another table.

Andrew Huberman：我会告诉你，我当时唯一的任务就是起身回到我的房间，而不是在另一张桌子前停留。

And I confess I pulled one brief stop at another table, played one hand and then lost it, and then just got back to my room as quickly as possible and then left Las Vegas as quickly as possible.

我承认我在另一张牌桌上短暂停留，玩了一手牌，然后输了，然后尽快回到我的房间，然后尽快离开拉斯维加斯。

Robert Malenka: Yeah, gambling is--

罗伯特·马伦卡：是的，赌博是——

Andrew Huberman: --But they'll probably get me the next time--

安德鲁·休伯曼：——但下次他们可能会抓到我——

Robert Malenka: --Yeah, gambling is, again, it all gets back to this reward circuitry, and the intermittent rewards are very powerful.

罗伯特·马伦卡：——是的，赌博再次回到这个奖励回路，间歇性的奖励非常强大。

Andrew Huberman: Well, and you mentioned earlier that the reward system is powerfully tuned to remember what were the behaviors that led up to the rewarding experience.

安德鲁·胡伯曼：嗯，你之前提到过，奖励系统经过强有力的调整，可以记住哪些行为带来了奖励体验。

Nobody ever won at the roulette or craps table or poker table by getting up and leaving.

在轮盘赌、掷骰子或扑克桌上，从来没有人通过起身离开而获胜。

Robert Malenka: Right, exactly.

罗伯特·马伦卡：对，完全正确。

Andrew Huberman: So I guess my brain was just thinking, well, how did I win?

安德鲁·休伯曼：所以我想我的大脑只是在想，好吧，我是如何获胜的？

I won by sitting down and putting chips on the table, not by going back to my room.

我通过坐下来把筹码放在桌子上而获胜，而不是回到我的房间。

Robert Malenka: Exactly.

罗伯特·马伦卡：没错。

Andrew Huberman: And yet I have a fair number of degrees, and I like to think my prefrontal cortex is working.

安德鲁·休伯曼：然而我有相当多的学位，而且我喜欢认为我的前额叶皮层正在发挥作用。

And yet it was still challenging in that moment.

但那一刻仍然充满挑战。

Robert Malenka: Gambling is really another human activity that's quite complicated.

罗伯特·马伦卡：赌博确实是另一种相当复杂的人类活动。

It can be enjoyable or it can be incredibly damaging.

它可以是令人愉快的，也可以是令人难以置信的破坏性的。

Andrew Huberman: And now people are going to think I was that gambling addict that I was referred to, but I swear I'm not.

安德鲁·胡伯曼：现在人们会认为我就是人们提到的那个赌博成瘾者，但我发誓我不是。

Fortunately, I feel very blessed that that's not my addiction.

幸运的是，我感到非常幸运，这不是我的瘾。

I'd like to talk about empathy and use that as a framework for eventually returning to our discussion of autism.

我想谈谈同理心，并将其作为最终回到我们对自闭症讨论的框架。

But you have this perhaps longstanding interest, but recent research interest in empathy.

但你可能对同理心有长期的兴趣，但最近的研究兴趣。

Tell me about this work.

跟我说说这个作品吧。

I'm not familiar with it.

我对此并不熟悉。

Robert Malenka: Okay.

罗伯特·马伦卡：好的。

So I hope it's okay to drag in some work I've done on this drug called MDMA because it is related.

因此，我希望可以拖入我对这种名为 MDMA 的药物所做的一些工作，因为它是相关的。

So we were working on, in my lab, social behaviors, positive pro social behaviors that stimulated me to start thinking about what are components of a positive pro social, non aggressive interaction.

因此，我们在实验室里研究社交行为，积极的亲社会行为，这促使我开始思考积极的亲社会、非攻击性互动的组成部分。

A common key component of that is having some empathy and compassion for the individuals you're hanging out with.

其中一个共同的关键组成部分是对与你一起出去玩的人有一些同理心和同情心。

And it is a topic I've been interested in for many, many decades.

这是我几十年来一直感兴趣的话题。

I was once a psychiatrist, and to get on my, whatever the word is, hobby horse, I look at the world today.

我曾经是一名精神科医生，为了骑上我的（不管这个词是什么）木马，我观察今天的世界。

I try to be optimistic again.

我再次尝试保持乐观。

I am a child of the '60s and '70s.

我是60、70年代的孩子。

When I look at the world, and I actually just did a trip to Israel to give a series of lectures, and I look at the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, what always enters my mind, and I've felt this way for decades, is what is more important for the survival of the human species than empathy and compassion, than actually being able to look at another human being, even if they look different than you, even if they have a different belief system than you, what is more important than actually understanding that 98% of your life is very similar?

当我看世界时，我实际上刚刚去以色列做了一系列讲座，我看着以色列-巴勒斯坦冲突，几十年来我一直这样认为，对于人类的生存来说，对于人类的生存来说，比同理心和同情心更重要的，比真正能够看到另一个人，即使他们看起来与你不同，即使他们有与你不同的信仰体系，还有什么比真正理解你生命的 98％ 更重要很相似吗？

You have some differences in how you look and the beliefs you have, but there's so much in common.

你们的外表和信仰有一些差异，但也有很多共同点。

So what's more important than understanding that when another person is suffering, their suffering is the same as your suffering and having compassion for somebody?

那么，还有什么比理解当另一个人受苦时，他们的痛苦与你的痛苦是一样的，并对某人怀有同情心更重要的呢？

So I started thinking, what is more important?

于是我开始思考，什么更重要？

And I'm not a politician.

而且我不是政治家。

As you know, Andrew, I have no social media presence.

如你所知，安德鲁，我没有社交媒体。

I figured the only way I might be able to contribute to efforts that might help the human species enhance empathy and compassion is by studying the neurobiological underpinnings of it.

我认为我能够为帮助人类增强同理心和同情心做出贡献的唯一方法是研究其神经生物学基础。

And I didn't realize I might be able to do that until I started studying sociability or prosocial behaviors in mice.

直到我开始研究小鼠的社交能力或亲社会行为时，我才意识到我可以做到这一点。

And then I was able to have a young woman scientist, and I want to give her credit, Monique Smith.

然后我就有了一位年轻的女科学家，我想赞扬她，莫妮克·史密斯。

You might want to have Monique on your podcast.

您可能希望莫妮克出现在您的播客上。

She's a dynamo.

她是一个发电机。

She's now an assistant professor at UCSD, where you were.

她现在是加州大学圣地亚哥分校的助理教授，也就是你所在的地方。

And Monique introduced me to a series of behavioral assays that I like to use the phrase, they are measurements, they are behavioral antecedents of empathy.

莫妮克向我介绍了一系列行为分析，我喜欢用这个短语，它们是测量，它们是同理心的行为前因。

Because in the world of psychologists and people who use the term empathy, it has a lot of different meanings to different people.

因为在心理学家和使用同理心这个词的人的世界里，它对不同的人有很多不同的含义。

I'm using it basically to mean one member of a species manifests some behavior that indicates it is being influenced by the emotional state, or what we call the affective state, effective with an “a” of another member of that species in its immediate environment.

我用它基本上是指一个物种的一个成员表现出一些行为，表明它受到情绪状态的影响，或者我们所说的情感状态，对该物种的另一个成员在其直接环境中的“a”有效。

For human interactions.

用于人际互动。

I just think, we were talking about friendships, any of us who watch a close friend suffer, it's hard.

我只是想，我们谈论的是友谊，我们任何一个看到亲密朋友受苦的人，都很难受。

You want to do anything you can to help them.

你想尽你所能来帮助他们。

That's empathy.

这就是同理心。

A mother with their child, a good mother, hopefully, when you have a kid who is sick, there's nothing worse.

一位带着孩子的母亲，一位好母亲，希望当你的孩子生病时，没有什么比这更糟糕的了。

As a parent, you just want to take that pain and suffering away.

作为父母，您只想消除这种痛苦和痛苦。

That's how I'm defining empathy.

这就是我对同理心的定义。

So it's my belief that like any complex human behavior, there are evolutionary reasons why that has been adaptive and important and maintained.

所以我相信，就像任何复杂的人类行为一样，有进化的原因可以解释为什么这种行为具有适应性、重要性和维持性。

And if it's evolutionarily evolved, there are ways of studying it in more primitive organisms, like mice.

如果它是进化而来的，那么就有办法在更原始的生物体（比如老鼠）中研究它。

So I'll tell you some of the behavioral assays we're doing.

所以我会告诉你我们正在做的一些行为分析。

One is, and I get a kick out of this because it's pretty new for me, so one assay, and we published a paper in a journal called Science about this, which is if you take one mouse, and in an ethical way, you put it in pain, you make its hind paw, one of its paws, one of its feet hurt a modest amount, and you take another mouse and you let that, what's known as the bystander mouse, just hang out with the mouse that's in pain for 1 hour, just 1 hour.

一个是，我对此很感兴趣，因为这对我来说很新，所以我们在《科学》杂志上发表了一篇关于这个的论文，如果你拿一只老鼠，以合乎道德的方式，让它感到疼痛，你让它的后爪、它的一只爪子、它的一只脚受到一定程度的伤害，然后你拿另一只老鼠，让那只老鼠，也就是所谓的旁观者老鼠，和那只处于疼痛的老鼠一起待上一个小时，只需1小时。

The bystander mouse, who has experienced no physical injury whatsoever, will manifest behaviors indicating it is now in pain.

旁观者的老鼠没有受到任何身体伤害，它会表现出表明它现在处于疼痛中的行为。

And it lasts maybe four to 20 hours.

它可能会持续四到二十个小时。

but think about that.

但想想这一点。

A mouse that is normal hanging out with another mouse in pain starts feeling pain itself.

一只通常与另一只疼痛的小鼠一起闲逛的小鼠开始感到疼痛。

Andrew Huberman: And the mice are able to see one another and hear one another?

Andrew Huberman：老鼠能够看到彼此并听到彼此的声音？

Robert Malenka: Good point.

罗伯特·马伦卡：好点。

So you're getting to how is that communication happening?

那么您知道这种沟通是如何发生的吗？

And a lot more work needs to be done on it.

这方面还需要做很多工作。

Monique and her previous colleagues and others.

莫妮克和她以前的同事以及其他人。

One component of it is probably an olfactory cue, or what we call a pheromone.

它的一个组成部分可能是嗅觉提示，或者我们所说的信息素。

Andrew Huberman: So the mouse that's in pain is secreting an odor?.

安德鲁·休伯曼：那么疼痛的老鼠会分泌一种气味？

Robert Malenka: Probably, because you can take bedding from mice in pain and expose the bystander mice, so that's one thing.

罗伯特·马伦卡：可能吧，因为你可以从痛苦的老鼠身上拿走垫料，然后暴露旁观者的老鼠，所以这是一回事。

And I had never heard of these behavioral assays.

我从来没有听说过这些行为分析。

We developed our, and this is pretty cool, and then I'll tell you two others, and then I'll tell you how it connects to reward circuitry.

我们开发了我们的，这非常酷，然后我会告诉你另外两个，然后我会告诉你它如何连接到奖励电路。

We developed a novel assay, which is the social transfer of pain relief.

我们开发了一种新颖的检测方法，即缓解疼痛的社会转移。

Pain relief is called analgesia.

缓解疼痛称为镇痛。

And I thought this was pretty cool.

我觉得这很酷。

And this is in this paper that was published in Science a year ago.

这是一年前发表在《科学》杂志上的这篇论文。

You take two mice and they're both in pain, modest pain.

你带了两只老鼠，它们都感到疼痛，轻微的疼痛。

I don't want your listeners to get upset.

我不想让你的听众感到不安。

We are not hurting these mice too badly, and it is a tricky issue.

我们并没有对这些老鼠造成太严重的伤害，这是一个棘手的问题。

Is it okay to put a mouse in pain so you can, the goal is to develop better treatments for human beings in pain, obviously.

让老鼠感到疼痛可以吗？显然，我们的目标是为人类的疼痛开发更好的治疗方法。

So you have two mice in modest pain.

所以你有两只老鼠处于中等程度的疼痛。

You give one mouse morphine.

你给一只老鼠吗啡。

So it's now analgesic.

所以现在是止痛药。

It is no longer experiencing pain.

它不再经历痛苦。

You take another mouse that's in pain, and you just let it hang out with the mouse that is no longer in pain, and the mouse that is in pain will show behaviors indicating it is experiencing analgesia.

你拿另一只疼痛的老鼠，让它和不再疼痛的老鼠一起闲逛，疼痛的老鼠会表现出表明它正在经历镇痛的行为。

It is no longer in as much pain.

它不再那么痛苦了。

Now think about that, and there's actually evidence from human studies that I can't speak to in any comprehensive way where it's called social buffering of pain.

现在想想，实际上有来自人类研究的证据，我无法以任何全面的方式谈论这被称为疼痛的社会缓冲。

To be honest, I've been having some neck pain just because I'm an old guy and I woke up on the wrong side of the bed.

说实话，我一直有一些颈部疼痛，只是因为我是个老家伙，而且我在床的另一边醒来。

And if I'm by myself, I focus on that pain, and it bothers me more.

如果我独自一人，我就会专注于那种痛苦，这会让我更烦恼。

If I'm socially engaged, I think it's not only that I'm not paying as much attention to the pain, but I think there's actually some relief from what's known as the social buffering of pain.

如果我参与社交活动，我认为这不仅是因为我没有对疼痛给予太多关注，而且我认为实际上可以从所谓的社会缓冲疼痛中得到一些缓解。

Andrew Huberman: Well, I'm no hippie, but I actually think that all species, including humans, are secreting molecules, mainly odorants, that are perhaps even acting directly as analgesics.

安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯，我不是嬉皮士，但我实际上认为所有物种，包括人类，都在分泌分子，主要是气味剂，它们甚至可能直接起到镇痛剂的作用。

And I can make that statement without worrying too much that people think I'm completely crazy because we had Noam Sobel on the podcast from the Weisman who shared with us not one, not two, but at least a dozen ways in which humans are making molecules, typically odors, and communicating those to one another to powerfully impact their testosterone levels, their vasopressin levels, their immune molecules.

我可以发表这样的声明，而不必太担心人们认为我完全疯了，因为我们在 Weisman 的播客中邀请了诺姆·索贝尔（Noam Sobel），他与我们分享了不是一种、不是两种，而是至少十几种人类制造分子（通常是气味）的方式，并将这些方式相互传达以强烈影响他们的睾丸激素水平、加压素水平和免疫分子。

And of course, Noam works on olfaction, so he's going to be biased toward that system.

当然，诺姆致力于嗅觉，所以他会偏向于这个系统。

But that's just one slice of the sensory array.

但这只是感官阵列的一小部分。

What about the way that somebody can look at us in a way that makes us feel good on a normal day?

如果有人能够以一种让我们在平常的日子里感觉良好的方式看待我们呢？

Well, when we're in pain, just even the touch to a shoulder can mean a lot.

好吧，当我们感到疼痛时，即使只是碰一下肩膀也可能意味着很多。

I remember going to meetings when I was an early neuroscientist, and I would probably at that point, have not been the type to just walk up and say hello to you because I wasn't in your field, and you're this luminary and stuff, but I remember as I started, I'm a good guy, by the way.

我记得当我还是一名早期的神经科学家时，我参加过会议，那时我可能不会是那种直接走上前向你打招呼的人，因为我不在你的领域，而你是一位杰出人物之类的，但我记得当我开始时，顺便说一下，我是一个好人。

You are very good.

你很好。

Robert Malenka: I always say hi to everyone.

罗伯特·马伦卡：我总是向每个人打招呼。

Andrew Huberman: I know you are.

安德鲁·休伯曼：我知道你是。

And that statement was a reflection on me, not a reflection on you.

那句话是对我的反思，而不是对你的反思。

But as I advanced through my career, what I found was you'd give a talk or something, and someone in your field more senior to you, who you respected, would give a nod or something.

但随着我职业生涯的进步，我发现你会发表演讲或其他什么，而在你的领域中比你更资深、你尊敬的人会点头或其他什么。

Those nods meant a lot.

这些点头意义重大。

Robert Malenka: Absolutely.

罗伯特·马伦卡：当然。

Andrew Huberman: Those nods could carry you a long distance.

安德鲁·休伯曼：这些点头可以让你走得很远。

I mean, obviously, we want to be intrinsically driven to do the work we do, but this social communication that we do--

我的意思是，显然，我们希望有内在的驱动力去做我们所做的工作，但是我们所做的社交沟通——

Robert Malenka: --We're a social species--

罗伯特·马伦卡：——我们是一个社会物种——

Andrew Huberman: --I think there's a whole landscape of things.

安德鲁·休伯曼：——我认为事情有一个整体。

So what you're describing is incredible, but I think makes a ton of sense.

所以你所描述的令人难以置信，但我认为很有道理。

Robert Malenka: Yeah.

罗伯特·马伦卡：是的。

So we have this social transfer, pain of analgesia here we're working on, and there's a little bit of evidence in the literature suggesting this might work.

所以我们正在研究这种社会转移，镇痛疼痛，文献中有一些证据表明这可能有效。

And then I'll talk about reward circuitry and maybe MDMA and is it an empathogen or not, and how that might influence therapeutic efforts for autism.

然后我会讨论奖赏回路，也许还有摇头丸，它是否是一种共情剂，以及它如何影响自闭症的治疗工作。

We're working on behavioral models.

我们正在研究行为模型。

We're asking the question, will one mouse behave to give another mouse a reward?

我们问的问题是，一只老鼠会给另一只老鼠奖励吗？

So it's the mouse that's behaving that has to press a bar or nose poke or even experience a shock.

因此，老鼠的行为必须按下杆或鼻子戳，甚至经历电击。

Will the mouse do that simply to give one of its buddies a reward?

老鼠这样做只是为了给它的伙伴一个奖励吗？

Andrew Huberman: Pure altruism.

安德鲁·休伯曼：纯粹的利他主义。

Robert Malenka: Yeah.

罗伯特·马伦卡：是的。

We call it generosity, a generosity assay.

我们称之为慷慨，一种慷慨分析。

And early days, it looks like it might be working.

在早期，看起来它可能会起作用。

And that's a generosity assay.

这是一个慷慨的分析。

We can also ask the question, will a mouse work?

我们还可以问一个问题，鼠标有用吗？

So another mouse doesn't get a shock, doesn't get hurt, which is compassion.

所以另一只老鼠不会受到电击，不会受伤，这就是慈悲。

And I think these things are going to be working.

我认为这些事情将会发挥作用。

And whether you want to call that empathy, I would call it that.

无论你想称之为同理心，我都会这样称呼它。

Those are behaviors, I like to use the term behavioral antecedents of how we define empathy in human beings and the connection to reward circuitry.

这些都是行为，我喜欢使用行为前因这个术语来描述我们如何定义人类的同理心以及与奖励回路的联系。

And the little bit of work we have done on this is we presented evidence that these behaviors we call the social transfer of pain, one mouse experiencing pain just because it's hanging out with another mouse.

我们在这方面所做的一点工作是我们提供了证据，证明这些行为被我们称为疼痛的社会转移，一只老鼠仅仅因为和另一只老鼠一起出去玩而感到疼痛。

The social transfer of analgesia.

镇痛的社会转移。

A mouse in pain getting some pain relief from hanging out with another mouse in pain, who has that pain relief.

一只疼痛的小鼠通过与另一只疼痛的小鼠一起闲逛而获得一定的疼痛缓解，而另一只小鼠也能缓解疼痛。

It seems to involve one component of the complex brain mechanisms, seems to involve a part of the brain called the anterior cingulate cortex, which human brain imaging studies suggest is activated during empathic human responses.

它似乎涉及复杂大脑机制的一个组成部分，似乎涉及大脑中称为前扣带皮层的部分，人类大脑成像研究表明，该部分在人类反应期间被激活。

And the projections of that area into the nucleus accumbens.

以及该区域到伏隔核的投影。

That's the connection.

这就是联系。

And we're interested in whether neuromodulators like dopamine and serotonin may influence this circuitry, these connections that are involved in these "empathic" behaviors, etc., etc. And we think drugs can be used as probes of those kinds of neuromodulatory mechanisms.

我们感兴趣的是像多巴胺和血清素这样的神经调节剂是否会影响这种电路，这些涉及这些“移情”行为的连接等等。我们认为药物可以用作此类神经调节机制的探针。

I hope this is all making sense.

我希望这一切都是有道理的。

Andrew Huberman: Makes excellent sense, and it's fascinating.

Andrew Huberman：非常有道理，而且很有趣。

I'm not one to suggest experiments to colleagues in areas where I don't work, but I'm going to anyway.

我不会向同事建议在我不工作的领域进行实验，但无论如何我都会这样做。

Robert Malenka: Yeah, please.

罗伯特·马伦卡：好的，请。

Andrew Huberman: One, You're a really smart guy.

Andrew Huberman：第一，你是一个非常聪明的人。

Robert Malenka: I will value your suggestions.

罗伯特·马伦卡：我会重视你的建议。

Andrew Huberman: I love the motivational backbone to what you're describing here because I agree the world has a lot of issues, and what could be more important than to increase the amount of empathy and compassion in the world?

安德鲁·休伯曼：我喜欢你在这里描述的激励支柱，因为我同意这个世界有很多问题，还有什么比增加世界上的同理心和同情心更重要的呢？

But one thing that we know inhibits empathy and compassion is one's own challenges and struggles.

但我们知道有一件事会抑制同理心和同情心，那就是一个人自己的挑战和挣扎。

And so I'm wondering if there's a way to introduce something to this behavioral paradigm such that the working to provide another animal relief from pain, one animal working to provide relief of another animal in pain, or an animal working to provide pleasure reward for another animal if it could be scaled with how inconvenient that work is.

所以我想知道是否有一种方法可以将某些东西引入到这种行为范式中，例如为另一种动物减轻疼痛的工作，一种动物为另一种动物提供疼痛的缓解，或者一种动物为另一种动物提供快乐奖励，如果它可以根据这项工作的不便程度来衡量。

Robert Malenka: Absolutely.

罗伯特·马伦卡：当然。

Andrew Huberman: If I'm very hungry.

安德鲁·休伯曼：如果我很饿。

I mean, we're all taught to put our own oxygen mask on first in some way too, so that we don't all die, so to speak.

我的意思是，我们都被教导要以某种方式首先戴上自己的氧气面罩，这样我们就不会全部死亡，可以这么说。

But I grew up, for instance, with one parent.

但例如，我是在一位父母的陪伴下长大的。

My mother was the kind of person who would see, at that time, there were far fewer homeless people on the street.

我母亲是那种会看到那时街上无家可归的人少了很多的人。

Maybe they were all institutionalized, I don't know.

也许他们都被制度化了，我不知道。

But if she saw a homeless person on the street of the town we lived in, she would literally pull over, give them money, find hotels.

但如果她在我们居住的小镇的街道上看到一个无家可归的人，她就会把车停在路边，给他们钱，找旅馆。

She had homeless people living in hotels all over the town we lived in.

她让无家可归的人住在我们居住的城镇各处的酒店里。

Robert Malenka: Good for her.

罗伯特·马伦卡：对她有好处。

Andrew Huberman: It was crazy.

安德鲁·休伯曼：这太疯狂了。

I mean, we couldn't get anywhere.

我的意思是，我们哪儿也去不了。

That was the problem, is we would never arrive anywhere on time.

这就是问题所在，我们永远无法准时到达任何地方。

And that's my excuse for always being late.

这就是我总是迟到的借口。

I was positively reinforced for being late.

我因迟到而得到了积极的强化。

I always run late, and I always run...

我总是迟到，而且我总是跑步……

Incredible, right?

难以置信，对吧？

Just a very strong sense of social, fantastic connection, that kind of thing.

只是一种非常强烈的社交意识，奇妙的联系，诸如此类的东西。

But in any case, some people are like that.

但无论如何，有些人就是这样。

She could not experience any even modicum of inconvenience for helping others.

她不会因帮助别人而感到任何不便。

Robert Malenka: Good.

罗伯特·马伦卡：很好。

Andrew Huberman: Whereas I think most of us feel like if I'm rushing to catch a flight and I see someone who's struggling, I'm probably going to help them if they're in acute pain or it seems like a dire circumstance.

安德鲁·休伯曼：虽然我认为我们大多数人都会觉得，如果我急着赶飞机，看到有人正在挣扎，但如果他们感到剧烈疼痛或情况看起来很可怕，我可能会帮助他们。

But let's be honest, most people are probably going to prioritize their own stress and priorities, for lack of a better word, when the situation often calls for us to set those aside and tend to people that are suffering.

但说实话，大多数人可能会优先考虑自己的压力和优先事项，因为没有更好的词来形容，而情况往往要求我们将这些压力和优先事项放在一边并照顾正在受苦的人。

So if there was a way to introduce a probe of the interplay of circuitries that involve how convenient or inconvenient it is.

因此，是否有一种方法可以引入对电路相互作用的探测，涉及到它有多方便或不方便。

Robert Malenka: Fantastic.

罗伯特·马伦卡：太棒了。

Andrew Huberman: Like if we're well fed, it's pretty easy to go out and gather and distribute food for others.

安德鲁·胡伯曼：就像如果我们吃饱了，出去为别人收集和分发食物就很容易了。

But if we're hungry, we tend to focus on our own hunger.

但如果我们饿了，我们往往会关注自己的饥饿感。

Robert Malenka: So first, in full disclosure, even though I'm studying empathy and compassion, I can look in the mirror and say, I probably don't practice it nearly as much as I should.

罗伯特·马伦卡：所以首先，完全公开，即使我正在研究同理心和同情心，我可以照镜子说，我可能没有像我应该的那样练习它。

I'm thinking of your example.

我在想你的例子。

If I was late for a plane, I'm not sure I would stop and help somebody.

如果我赶不上飞机，我不确定我是否会停下来帮助别人。

And I'm not saying--

我并不是说——

Andrew Huberman: --I think it depends on what sort of suffering exactly.

安德鲁·休伯曼：——我认为这取决于具体的痛苦类型。

If they're hemorrhaging on the side--

如果他们的侧面流血了——

Robert Malenka: --Of course--

罗伯特·马伦卡：——当然——

Andrew Huberman: --we all would of course, but a flat tire, right?

安德鲁·胡伯曼：——我们当然都会，但是轮胎瘪了，对吧？

You might think, oh goodness, do I have time for this?

你可能会想，天啊，我有时间做这个吗？

Robert Malenka: Yeah, exactly.

罗伯特·马伦卡：是的，完全正确。

So I'm not proud of that statement.

所以我对这个说法并不感到自豪。

But back to your question.

但回到你的问题。

Yes, I think absolutely, we can design experiments where, after we've established the basic phenomenology, then we can take our subject animal or mouse and put it into certain circumstances.

是的，我认为绝对可以，我们可以设计实验，在建立了基本现象学之后，我们可以将我们的实验动物或小鼠置于特定的环境中。

If it's hungry itself, will it work as hard to give another animal food?

如果它自己饿了，给它另一种动物食物它还会努力吗？

I mean, it's a good question because I'm not sure what the outcome will be.

我的意思是，这是一个很好的问题，因为我不确定结果会是什么。

One could predict it might work harder because it understands the "hunger" more.

人们可以预测它可能会更加努力地工作，因为它更了解“饥饿”。

Andrew Huberman: I love that.

安德鲁·休伯曼：我喜欢这个。

Robert Malenka: Or it could be, of course it's not going to work hard for another animal to get a food reward because it's starving itself and it needs to take care of itself first.

罗伯特·马伦卡：或者也可能是，当然，它不会为另一只动物努力工作以获得食物奖励，因为它自己正在挨饿，而且它需要首先照顾自己。

It's a great question.

这是一个很好的问题。

We're also asking questions about, do you have to know your buddy mouse, right?

我们还问这样的问题：你必须认识你的老鼠伙伴吗？

Are you more likely to behave in a generous or compassionate way if you grew up with that mouse in the way our mice grow up in academic environments?

如果你和那只老鼠一起长大，就像我们的老鼠在学术环境中长大一样，你是否更有可能表现得慷慨或富有同情心？

And if it's a stranger, how will you behave?

如果是陌生人，你会如何表现？

How will you behave if you had a fight with that mouse previously?

如果你以前和那只老鼠打过架，你会怎么做？

And it also matters, did you win the fight or did you lose the fight?

同样重要的是，你是赢得了这场战斗还是输掉了战斗？

Intuitively, as we probably would all guess, I'm more likely to help somebody I defeated in a fight previously, because in the hierarchy, I'm the dominant one.

直觉上，正如我们可能都会猜测的那样，我更有可能帮助我之前在战斗中击败的人，因为在等级制度中，我是占主导地位的。

I'm probably less likely if that person beat me up.

如果那个人殴打我，我可能不太可能。

So all these are great questions.

所以所有这些都是很好的问题。

I think we can study them.

我想我们可以研究它们。

I also think there are ways we can study these kinds of interactions in human subjects.

我还认为我们可以通过一些方法来研究人类受试者的此类相互作用。

Not that I am going to do that myself.

并不是说我自己会这么做。

Andrew Huberman: Someone at Stanford will.

Andrew Huberman：斯坦福大学有人会的。

Robert Malenka: Yeah.

罗伯特·马伦卡：是的。

So I think there's also an opportunity, and I'm happy to discuss how neuromodulators, like in particular serotonin, but also perhaps dopamine and oxytocin, may influence the circuitry in the brain mechanisms that are mediating what I term empathic behaviors.

所以我认为还有一个机会，我很高兴讨论神经调节剂，特别是血清素，也许还有多巴胺和催产素，可能会影响大脑机制中的回路，这些机制正在调节我所说的共情行为。

Andrew Huberman: Let's return to autism.

安德鲁·休伯曼：让我们回到自闭症。

Robert Malenka: All right.

罗伯特·马伦卡：好的。

Andrew Huberman: Does autism involve a lack of empathy?

安德鲁·休伯曼：自闭症是否涉及缺乏同理心？

Does autism involve a restructuring of the reward system around social interactions?

自闭症是否涉及围绕社交互动的奖励系统的重组？

Robert Malenka: Maybe.

罗伯特·马伦卡：也许吧。

Andrew Huberman: Considering the second question first, I could imagine, for instance, that there are variations in brain wiring that would make it such that a kid who then becomes an adult gets a tremendous amount of reward from, I don't know, math, designing mugs, any number of activities.

安德鲁·休伯曼：首先考虑第二个问题，例如，我可以想象，大脑线路存在变化，这会使一个孩子在成年后从数学、设计杯子、任何数量的活动中获得巨大的奖励，我不知道。

But that through some variation in brain wiring social interaction, spending time with friends is just not as socially rewarding.

但通过大脑社交互动的一些变化，与朋友共度时光并没有那么社交回报。

It just doesn't feel good in the moment, doesn't necessarily feel bad, but it's not selected for.

它只是暂时感觉不好，不一定感觉不好，但它没有被选择。

And is there any evidence that's the case in children who are classified as autistic or having autism?

是否有任何证据表明被归类为自闭症或患有自闭症的儿童的情况如此？

I want to be clear.

我想澄清一下。

I am not a world expert on pathophysiology of individuals with autism spectrum disorder.

我不是自闭症谱系障碍患者病理生理学方面的世界专家。

I have read some of the literature.

我读过一些文献。

I do study mouse models of genetically based autism spectrum disorder.

我确实研究基于遗传的自闭症谱系障碍的小鼠模型。

Robert Malenka: So the answer is yes, there have been imaging studies, and again, so certain members of your audience don't get mad, remember our earlier conversation?

罗伯特·马伦卡：所以答案是肯定的，已经有了成像研究，所以你的某些观众不要生气，还记得我们之前的谈话吗？

We made the point that autism spectrum disorder is a highly heterogeneous set of behavioral symptoms with wide variation in how these symptoms manifest in each individual.

我们指出，自闭症谱系障碍是一组高度异质的行为症状，这些症状在每个人身上的表现差异很大。

So we cannot make blanket statements that individuals with autism spectrum disorder are this or that.

因此，我们不能一概而论地认为患有自闭症谱系障碍的人是这样或那样的。

But there are studies both in human beings and mice that suggest that the reinforcing component of a social interaction is much less or lacking in our models of autism spectrum disorder and certain individuals.

但对人类和小鼠的研究表明，在我们的自闭症谱系障碍和某些个体模型中，社交互动的强化成分要少得多或缺乏。

An important point is, is that just genetically wired?

重要的一点是，这只是基因连接吗？

Was that because in their early experiences, they weren't able to get the sensory stimuli that tell them this is a reinforcing social experience unknown, or at least those are topics that I think are worthy of investigation.

这是因为在他们的早期经历中，他们无法获得感官刺激来告诉他们这是一种未知的强化社交体验，或者至少这些是我认为值得研究的话题。

Do individuals or mice with autism spectrum disorder lack or do not have the capacity or the same experience of empathy?

患有自闭症谱系障碍的个体或小鼠是否缺乏或没有同理心的能力或相同的经历？

Again, a very complex topic in question, and it's very likely for some individuals, the answer is yes, meaning they do lack some of the neural mechanisms that allow them.

同样，这是一个非常复杂的话题，对于某些人来说，答案很可能是肯定的，这意味着他们确实缺乏一些允许他们这样做的神经机制。

But that probably doesn't apply to everybody.

但这可能并不适用于所有人。

I can say in our mouse models of social interactions and our mouse models of "empathy," our mice show deficits and those deficits can be rescued, meaning improved upon by manipulations of certain neuromodulatory systems, in this case, the serotonin system, by giving drugs, including a drug called MDMA or Ecstasy.

我可以说，在我们的小鼠社交互动模型和小鼠“同理心”模型中，我们的小鼠表现出缺陷，并且这些缺陷可以被挽救，这意味着可以通过操纵某些神经调节系统（在本例中为血清素系统）来改善，方法是给予药物，包括一种称为摇头丸或摇头丸的药物。

So I hope I'm answering your question.

所以我希望我能回答你的问题。

I think these are worthwhile subjects for investigation.

我认为这些都是值得研究的课题。

I think there's a lot of value in studying them.

我认为研究它们有很大的价值。

Andrew Huberman: Let's go back to serotonin in the nucleus accumbens.

Andrew Huberman：让我们回到伏隔核中的血清素。

We will get into this in a bit more detail when we discuss MDMA.

当我们讨论 MDMA 时，我们将更详细地讨论这一点。

But I've now spent a lot of time with a recent paper of yours--

但我现在花了很多时间阅读你最近的一篇论文——

Robert Malenka: --Really?

罗伯特·马伦卡：——真的吗？

Which one?

哪一个？

Andrew Huberman: The MDMA paper.

Andrew Huberman：MDMA 论文。

Robert Malenka: The Boris Heifets one?

罗伯特·马伦卡：鲍里斯·海菲茨 (Boris Heifets) 之一？

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, that parsed the relative roles of dopamine in the nucleus accumbens versus serotonin in the nucleus accumbens.

安德鲁·休伯曼：是的，这解析了伏隔核中多巴胺与伏隔核中血清素的相对作用。

By the way, folks, by the time this episode comes out, an episode all about MDMA itself and its modes of action will have already aired, and you can find that, but even if you haven't heard that, MDMA is an amazing molecule because it profoundly increases dopamine, and that's why the word methamphetamine is actually in MDMA.

顺便说一句，伙计们，当这一集播出时，关于 MDMA 本身及其作用方式的一集已经播出了，你会发现这一点，但即使你没有听说过，MDMA 也是一种令人惊奇的分子，因为它大大增加了多巴胺，这就是为什么甲基苯丙胺这个词实际上在 MDMA 中。

Still a surprise to many people to hear that, but it also robustly increases serotonin transmission.

许多人听到这个消息仍然感到惊讶，但它也大大增加了血清素的传输。

And what I love about the paper from your lab that explored this is that, at least by my read of the data, it showed very convincingly that it's serotonin released in the nucleus accumbens that's responsible for the prosocial effects of MDMA, whereas oxytocin, this thing we talked about earlier that everyone assumes is the pair bonding molecule, the molecule of love, both in humans, now there's a study in humans and in the mouse work that you've done, doesn't seem to play as prominent a role in the social enhancement that MDMA causes.

我喜欢你们实验室这篇探讨这一问题的论文，至少通过我对数据的阅读，它非常令人信服地表明，伏核中释放的血清素负责摇头丸的亲社会作用，而催产素，我们之前谈到的每个人都认为是人类的配对分子，爱的分子，现在有一项针对人类和您所做的小鼠研究，似乎不起作用MDMA 在促进社会进步方面发挥着重要作用。

And the reason I'm asking this in the context of autism is that for a long time, there was excitement about the idea that oxytocin nasal sprays might make autistic kids more excited about social interactions, more tuned to social interactions.

我在自闭症背景下问这个问题的原因是，很长一段时间以来，人们对催产素鼻喷雾剂可能会让自闭症孩子对社交互动更加兴奋、更适应社交互动的想法感到兴奋。

First question is, is there any evidence that increasing oxytocin in a child or adult with autism makes them somehow more social or desiring more social connections?

第一个问题是，是否有任何证据表明，增加自闭症儿童或成人的催产素会使他们更加社交或渴望更多的社交联系？

I'm not aware of any.

我不知道有什么。

Robert Malenka: I think it is worthwhile.

罗伯特·马伦卡：我认为这是值得的。

It has been studied.

人们已经对此进行了研究。

I don't think we can close the door on the potential therapeutic uses of oxytocin from the people I know who are much more expert in this than I am.

我不认为我们可以对我认识的人关闭催产素潜在治疗用途的大门，他们在这方面比我更专业。

I think most of the clinical trials have been pretty disappointing, with a lot of hope that intranasal oxytocin would promote more positive pro social experiences.

我认为大多数临床试验都非常令人失望，人们寄希望于鼻内催产素能够促进更积极的亲社会体验。

I don't think the door is shut yet.

我认为门还没有关上。

There may be different ways of administering it.

可能有不同的管理方法。

There may be ways of making a different type of oxytocin that might be beneficial.

可能有多种方法可以制造出可能有益的不同类型的催产素。

I have a colleague at Stanford who's actually looking at a related neuropeptide called vasopressin, and she's finding some potential benefit from that.

我在斯坦福大学的一位同事实际上正在研究一种名为加压素的相关神经肽，她发现了其中的一些潜在好处。

And vasopressin and oxytocin are closely related to each other.

加压素和催产素彼此密切相关。

They can even activate some of the same, what we call receptors in the brain.

它们甚至可以激活大脑中的一些相同的受体，即我们所说的受体。

So I don't think the door is closed on the possibility of oxytocin or related therapeutic agents having some therapeutic potential.

因此，我认为催产素或相关治疗剂具有一定治疗潜力的可能性并未关闭。

The evidence, as far as I'm aware, is not there yet in terms of MDMA, again, complicated story.

据我所知，关于摇头丸的证据还没有，这又是一个复杂的故事。

As you pointed out, MDMA, its major molecular targets, don't want to get too technical here, are the serotonin vacuum cleaner, the molecule that vacuums up serotonin, and the dopamine vacuum cleaner, the molecule that vacuums up, and, excuse my language, sucks up dopamine when it's released, because it's an amphetamine derivative, as you correctly pointed out, it not only prevents these proteins, we call them, these molecules, these vacuum cleaners, from vacuuming up the dopamine and serotonin when it's released, it actually causes it, how do I, I don't want to use the terms to vomit out dopamine and serotonin--

正如你所指出的，MDMA，它的主要分子目标，不想在这里变得太技术性，是血清素吸尘器，吸走血清素的分子，多巴胺吸尘器，吸尘的分子，请原谅我的语言，在多巴胺释放时吸走多巴胺，因为它是一种安非他明衍生物，正如你正确指出的那样，它不仅阻止这些蛋白质，我们称之为这些分子，这些吸尘器，吸尘当多巴胺和血清素释放时，它会增加，它实际上会导致它，我该怎么办，我不想用这些术语来吐出多巴胺和血清素--

Andrew Huberman: --That's what I say on the podcast--

安德鲁·休伯曼：——这就是我在播客上所说的——

Robert Malenka: --Am I allowed to say that?-- Andrew Huberman: --when I talk about synaptic release, I'm known for, on my solo episodes, for when I talk about synaptic release, I'll say that they they vomit out.

罗伯特·马伦卡：——我可以这么说吗？——安德鲁·休伯曼：——当我谈论突触释放时，我因在我的独奏节目中而闻名，因为当我谈论突触释放时，我会说他们呕吐了。

Robert Malenka: So what amphetamine derivatives--

罗伯特·马伦卡：那么安非他明衍生物是什么——

Andrew Huberman: --But you work on synaptic transmission.

安德鲁·休伯曼：——但是你研究的是突触传递。

That's almost an insult to a synaptic transmission.

这几乎是对突触传递的侮辱。

Robert Malenka: What MDMA does is it actually calls what's known as a reverse transport.

Robert Malenka：MDMA 的作用实际上是所谓的反向传输。

It not only prevents the vacuum cleaners from sucking up the dopamine and serotonin, it causes it to spew out dopamine and serotonin.

它不仅可以防止吸尘器吸入多巴胺和血清素，还可以使其喷出多巴胺和血清素。

So imagine if your vacuum cleaner started, the pressure in your vacuum cleaner reversed, and all the dirt you collected started being spewed out.

因此，想象一下，如果您的真空吸尘器启动，真空吸尘器中的压力发生逆转，并且您收集到的所有污垢开始喷出。

Now, the one difference for MDMA, and it's a fascinating topic, I hope we have time to talk about, is why does MDMA, qualitatively, for most people, give human subjects a different experience than cocaine or methamphetamine, or especially methamphetamine.

现在，摇头丸的一个区别是，这是一个令人着迷的话题，我希望我们有时间讨论一下，为什么摇头丸在定性上，对于大多数人来说，给人类受试者带来与可卡因或甲基苯丙胺，特别是甲基苯丙胺不同的体验。

Andrew Huberman: Presumably, it's the fact that there's so much serotonin.

安德鲁·休伯曼：据推测，这是因为血清素含量很高。

Robert Malenka: Exactly.

罗伯特·马伦卡：没错。

And so if you actually get into, and this is why, for your audiences, this is why hardcore molecular science can actually teach us something about complex human behavioral phenomena, such as social interactions and addiction, at least the hypothesis we propose and others in the field.

因此，如果你真的进入，这就是为什么，对于你的观众来说，这就是为什么核心分子科学实际上可以教给我们一些关于复杂的人类行为现象的知识，例如社交互动和成瘾，至少是我们提出的假设和该领域的其他假设。

It's not just, science is not done in isolation.

这不仅仅是科学不是孤立进行的。

So I want to give credit where creditors do.

所以我想在债权人所做的事情上给予信贷。

We did not define the following, that MDMA affects the serotonin system more than the dopamine system.

我们没有定义 MDMA 对血清素系统的影响大于对多巴胺系统的影响。

So it's not 50/50.

所以这不是 50/50。

Maybe it's 70/30, 80/20.

也许是 70/30、80/20。

And that's because the molecule itself of MDMA, again, I'm trying not to use language, it binds to, has a higher affinity, it likes to bind to and influence the serotonin vacuum cleaner more than the dopamine vacuum cleaner.

那是因为 MDMA 分子本身，我再次尝试不使用语言，它结合，具有更高的亲和力，它比多巴胺真空吸尘器更喜欢结合并影响血清素真空吸尘器。

It's still affecting both, but it's not 50/50.

它仍然对两者都有影响，但不是 50/50。

It's more, whatever, 70% serotonin, 30% dopamine.

无论如何，70% 的血清素，30% 的多巴胺。

And then it does influence oxytocin in very complex ways, which is a further technical discussion.

然后它确实以非常复杂的方式影响催产素，这是进一步的技术讨论。

There was just a nice paper that came out that reported that serotonin releases in a hypothalamic structure, which, again, the hypothalamus, you can explain to your listeners.

刚刚发表了一篇很好的论文，报告称血清素在下丘脑结构中释放，您可以向听众解释一下下丘脑。

Andrew Huberman: A marble-ish size structure above the roof of your mouth, responsible for sex, temperature control, feeding and satiety, and a bunch of other things critical.

Andrew Huberman：口腔上方有一个大理石大小的结构，负责性、温度控制、进食和饱腹感，以及许多其他重要的事情。

Robert Malenka: And it's a home of neurons that produce oxytocin.

罗伯特·马伦卡：它是产生催产素的神经元的所在地。

Andrew Huberman: Thank you.

安德鲁·休伯曼：谢谢。

Robert Malenka: So this paper reported that when serotonin is released in the hypothalamus, it activates and causes the release of oxytocin that's in the hypothalamus.

罗伯特·马伦卡：这篇论文报道说，当下丘脑释放血清素时，它会激活并导致下丘脑释放催产素。

Our work in the reward circuitry suggested oxytocin.

我们在奖赏回路方面的工作表明催产素。

So that's serotonin upstream of oxytocin in the hypothalamus, where we were looking in the accumbens, it was the opposite.

这就是下丘脑中催产素上游的血清素，我们在伏隔核中观察，情况恰恰相反。

Oxytocin caused the release of serotonin.

催产素引起血清素的释放。

So the point to your listeners is the brain is unfortunately complicated.

因此，对听众来说，不幸的是，大脑很复杂。

It's tractable.

它很容易处理。

We like to come up with general hypotheses and principles, but sometimes the devil's in the details, and we really need to probe deeper.

我们喜欢提出一般性的假设和原则，但有时细节决定成败，我们确实需要进行更深入的探索。

So back to your question about our previous paper and dopamine and serotonin.

回到你关于我们之前的论文以及多巴胺和血清素的问题。

So what we proposed, which is far from nailed down, is that MDMA, because it is an amphetamine derivative, does influence dopamine release and the dopamine system.

因此，我们提出的建议（目前尚未确定）是，MDMA 因为它是一种安非他明衍生物，所以确实会影响多巴胺的释放和多巴胺系统。

And some of my colleagues in the MDMA field, who I respect enormously, don't like me to say this, but I'm going to say it anyhow.

我非常尊敬的 MDMA 领域的一些同事不喜欢我这么说，但无论如何我还是要说。

Remember earlier in the podcast, we talked about different substances having addictive liabilities?

还记得之前在播客中，我们讨论过不同的物质具有成瘾性吗？

Doesn't mean a substance is automatically addictive, doesn't mean it's automatically not, it's a continuum, and I would argue that MDMA does have some addictive liability because it is an amphetamine derivative.

并不意味着某种物质会自动上瘾，也不意味着它不会自动上瘾，它是一个连续体，我认为 MDMA 确实具有一定的成瘾性，因为它是一种安非他明衍生物。

Andrew Huberman: It feels good.

安德鲁·休伯曼：感觉很好。

Robert Malenka: And it feels good.

罗伯特·马伦卡：感觉很好。

And so there are individuals that, especially as your listeners may know, MDMA has gotten a lot of attention because it's in a therapeutic trial that looks very promising as an adjunct to psychotherapy for post traumatic stress disorder.

因此，有些人，尤其是你们的听众可能知道，摇头丸已经引起了很多关注，因为它正在进行一项治疗试验，看起来非常有希望作为创伤后应激障碍心理治疗的辅助手段。

And the FDA, the part of our government that approves or disapproves the legal distribution of therapeutic drugs, may end up approving MDMA for certain uses.

FDA 是我国政府批准或不批准治疗药物合法分销的部门，最终可能会批准 MDMA 的某些用途。

The point being is that if it gets approved, my personal feeling is it will have some addictive liability.

重点是，如果它获得批准，我个人的感觉是它会有一定的成瘾性。

It also has this very powerful, what you and I might term Andrew, a pro social effect.

它还具有非常强大的，你我可以称之为安德鲁的，一种亲社会效应。

Some people even call it an empathogen.

有些人甚至称其为共情剂。

That's a little controversial, meaning it enhances your capacity for empathy, to experience the emotional state of another individual, to want to understand that person's experiences and emotional state.

这有点有争议，这意味着它可以增强你的同理心、体验另一个人的情绪状态、想要理解那个人的经历和情绪状态的能力。

And what we've suggested is that the addictive liability is mostly, although not solely, being, mediated by its actions on the dopamine system, whereas its positive, more pro social effects and perhaps its empathogenic effects are more likely to be mediated by its interactions with the serotonin system in this reward circuitry.

我们认为，成瘾倾向主要（尽管不是唯一）是通过其对多巴胺系统的作用来介导的，而其积极的、更亲社会的影响以及可能的移情作用更有可能是通过其与奖励回路中的血清素系统的相互作用来介导的。

And we're actually doing a lot of work to test that hypothesis.

我们实际上做了很多工作来检验这个假设。

We're actually testing MDMA in these behavioral models of empathy in mice, and it looks like our hypothesis is being supported.

我们实际上正在小鼠的移情行为模型中测试摇头丸，看起来我们的假设得到了支持。

The other thing to drive your listeners crazy about, sorry, listeners, how complex the brain is.

另一件让你的听众疯狂的事情，对不起，听众，大脑是多么复杂。

If you think it--

如果你这么认为——

Andrew Huberman: --Listen, neither you nor I were consulted at the design phase, and so we don't have to apologize for the brain's complexity.

安德鲁·胡伯曼：——听着，在设计阶段我们都没有咨询过你和我，所以我们不必为大脑的复杂性道歉。

Robert Malenka: Because, trust me, as a scientist, I wish I could keep things as simple as possible.

罗伯特·马伦卡：因为，相信我，作为一名科学家，我希望我能让事情尽可能简单。

That's what good science is.

这就是好的科学。

It turns out serotonin is produced by neurons in another part of the brain with this wonderful name called the dorsal raphe nucleus.

事实证明，血清素是由大脑另一部分的神经元产生的，这个部分的名字叫中缝背核。

And it turns out the serotonin neurons talk to the dopamine neurons and influence the dopamine neurons.

事实证明，血清素神经元与多巴胺神经元对话并影响多巴胺神经元。

It's, again, the point we made earlier in your podcast, even though it's fun and useful both for your listeners and as scientists to think about these powerful chemical messengers in isolation, because that's how we can make progress scientifically.

这也是我们之前在播客中提出的观点，尽管对于听众和科学家来说，孤立地思考这些强大的化学信使既有趣又有用，因为这就是我们如何在科学上取得进展的方式。

It's how your audience can understand some of the concepts that have been elucidated from brain research over the decades, but they don't work in isolation.

这是你的观众如何理解几十年来大脑研究阐明的一些概念的方式，但它们并不是孤立的。

They influence each other.

他们互相影响。

They communicate with each other.

他们互相交流。

We're actually doing studies showing that serotonin release in the accumbens actually modulates dopamine release.

我们实际上正在进行的研究表明，伏隔核中血清素的释放实际上可以调节多巴胺的释放。

So it gets crazy complicated.

所以事情变得非常复杂。

But you can still develop simplistic hypotheses, like, as I was saying, about MDMA, where abuse, addictive liability, and some of its reinforcing qualities, which you just mentioned, MDMA, a lot of people find it fun to take it, is probably mostly being mediated via the dopamine system, and some of its social effects are being mediated by the serotonin system.

但你仍然可以提出简单化的假设，就像我刚才所说的，关于摇头丸，其中滥用、成瘾倾向以及它的一些强化特性，正如你刚才提到的，摇头丸，很多人觉得服用它很有趣，可能主要是通过多巴胺系统介导的，而它的一些社会影响是通过血清素系统介导的。

We're actually doing studies to figure out whether the reinforcing component of a social experience requires that dopamine release.

我们实际上正在进行研究，以确定社交体验的强化部分是否需要多巴胺的释放。

Probably does.

可能是这样。

Andrew Huberman: That's what I'm most interested in, really, in the context of MDMA.

Andrew Huberman：这确实是我最感兴趣的，在 MDMA 的背景下。

And we should just mention, because we do like to mention these caveats.

我们应该提及，因为我们确实喜欢提及这些警告。

Yes.

是的。

And I can say this because I participated in a trial with MDMA.

我之所以能这么说，是因为我参加了摇头丸试验。

It is a very pleasant experience.

这是一次非常愉快的经历。

It's certainly not for everybody.

这当然不适合所有人。

It still is a schedule one drug at this moment.

目前它仍然是一种药物。

Robert Malenka: Absolutely.

罗伯特·马伦卡：当然。

Andrew Huberman: So you can go to jail for possessing or selling it.

安德鲁·休伯曼：所以你可能会因为拥有或出售它而入狱。

In fact, there was a big bust recently in Canada and another one in Brussels.

事实上，加拿大最近发生了一次大规模的萧条，布鲁塞尔也发生了另一次大规模的萧条。

Large amounts of MDMA collected.

收集到大量 MDMA。

Those people are probably going to go to prison for a long period of time.

那些人很可能会被关进监狱很长一段时间。

So you don't want to take it or possess it.

所以你不想接受或拥有它。

It's illegal.

这是非法的。

We're talking about clinical trials here.

我们这里谈论的是临床试验。

But also the fentanyl issue.

还有芬太尼问题。

There's a lot of fentanyl contamination.

有大量芬太尼污染。

Robert Malenka: And I was just going to mention it to your listeners.

罗伯特·马伦卡：我只是想向听众提及这一点。

Andrew Huberman: So we'd be remiss if we didn't mention.

Andrew Huberman：如果我们不提及，那就是我们的失职。

A lot of people are dying thinking that they're taking one drug when they're taking another.

很多人临死前都以为自己在服用一种药物，而实际上他们正在服用另一种药物。

So we are not encouraging the use of these.

所以我们不鼓励使用这些。

But I will say that the subjective experience of MDMA, provided it's done in the appropriate clinical setting, it's actually, MDMA doesn't contain other things dosed correctly, etc., is a pleasant one, for sure.

但我要说的是，MDMA 的主观体验，只要是在适当的临床环境中进行的，实际上，MDMA 不包含剂量正确的其他物质等，这肯定是令人愉快的。

And my sense is that the dopamine release is reinforcing the experience, that the context that serotonin is providing with a social context and the word context there becomes important when we think about back to the 90s when there were a lot of raves and people were also getting, I guess, positive feedback from the interactions they were having, dancing all night, partying with friends, etc.

我的感觉是，多巴胺的释放正在强化这种体验，当我们回想起 90 年代时，血清素提供的社交背景和单词背景就变得很重要，当时有很多狂欢，我想人们也从他们的互动中得到了积极的反馈，比如通宵跳舞、与朋友聚会等。

I think that returning to the issue of autism and the role of serotonin, so in autism, there seems to be less of a reinforcement pathway for certain kinds of social interactions in some individuals with autism.

我认为回到自闭症和血清素的作用问题上来，在自闭症中，某些自闭症患者的某些类型的社会互动似乎缺乏强化途径。

And I'm aware that there are some prescription treatments for autism that capitalize on the serotonergic system and dopamine system.

我知道有一些治疗自闭症的处方疗法利用了血清素系统和多巴胺系统。

So is it fentamine?

那么它是芬他明吗？

Robert Malenka: To my knowledge, the only FDA approved pharmacologic therapeutic for individuals with autism spectrum disorder is actually, oh, God, I'm just blanking, it's not a serotonergic drug, I have to look it up.

罗伯特·马伦卡：据我所知，FDA 批准的唯一针对自闭症谱系障碍患者的药物治疗实际上是，哦，上帝，我只是一片空白，这不是一种血清素药物，我必须查一下。

I want to say risperidone for agitation.

我想说利培酮可以缓解躁动。

There is no drug for, for lack of a better term, the social deficits.

由于缺乏更好的术语，没有药物可以治疗社会缺陷。

There's no FDA approved drug.

没有 FDA 批准的药物。

If you look at the literature, psychiatrists and individuals with good intention have tested the utility of traditional serotonergic drugs like Prozac, SSRIs.

如果你看一下文献，精神科医生和善意的人已经测试了传统血清素药物（如百忧解、SSRIs）的效用。

There are drugs known as SNRIs, drugs that influence serotonin release, and another neuromodulator that you know well, norepinephrine and at least well done clinical trials, which in my view, as an academic, are very important.

有一些被称为 SNRI 的药物，即影响血清素释放的药物，以及您熟知的另一种神经调节剂，去甲肾上腺素和至少完成良好的临床试验，在我看来，作为一名学者，这非常重要。

None of them have shown efficacy.

它们都没有显示出功效。

Having said that, there are several companies, and full disclosure here, I am the founder of a small biotech called Maplite Therapeutics, and I'm not advertising for Maplite.

话虽如此，有几家公司，在这里全面披露，我是一家名为 Maplite Therapeutics 的小型生物技术公司的创始人，我不是为 Maplite 做广告。

I'm just doing a full disclosure.

我只是做一个全面的披露。

It was founded with Karl Deisseroth, who you've had on your podcast, and an entrepreneur in San Francisco named Karoly Nikolich.

它是由卡尔·戴瑟罗斯（Karl Deisseroth）和旧金山一位名叫卡罗利·尼科利奇（Karoly Nikolich）的企业家共同创立的。

And we have a phase two trial.

我们正在进行第二阶段试验。

Phase two trial means it's a safe drug.

第二阶段试验意味着它是一种安全的药物。

We've done all the safety work, and it's a drug that targets a subtype of receptor for serotonin.

我们已经完成了所有的安全工作，这是一种针对血清素受体亚型的药物。

Serotonin works on many different, I don't know, what word can I use other than receptors?

血清素作用于许多不同的地方，我不知道，除了受体之外我还能用什么词？

Andrew Huberman: No, listeners of this podcast will probably be familiar with receptors, sort of parking spots for molecules.

安德鲁·休伯曼：不，这个播客的听众可能会熟悉受体，一种分子的停车位。

Yes.

是的。

The paper I was referencing earlier from your lab, it talked about serotonin 1B receptors being particularly important.

我之前引用过您实验室的论文，其中谈到 5-羟色胺 1B 受体特别重要。

Robert Malenka: The point being is I do have an interest in this.

罗伯特·马伦卡：重点是我对此确实感兴趣。

Can you use the type of discoveries we've made in mice?

你能利用我们在老鼠身上的发现吗？

Might it actually have any relevance to human beings, in particular those who, some of which have some sort of sociability deficits?

它实际上可能与人类有关，特别是那些有某种社交缺陷的人吗？

Other companies are pursuing this, too.

其他公司也在追求这一点。

So MDMA itself, there has been.

所以 MDMA 本身就已经存在了。

I don't know if it's ongoing.

我不知道它是否正在进行。

There's a well known organization.

有一个很有名的组织。

I don't know if you've ever had anybody from MAPS on this podcast.

我不知道您是否曾在这个播客上听过来自 MAPS 的人。

The Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies.

迷幻研究多学科协会。

MAPS deserves a lot of credit for being a pioneer in saying, in particular with MDMA, promoting the idea that this drug deserves rigorous and ethical study.

MAPS 值得高度赞扬，因为它是倡导这种药物值得进行严格和道德研究这一理念的先驱，尤其是在 MDMA 方面。

That's at least my view and MAPS, which was founded by an individual named Rick Doblin, deserves enormous credit for their 30 year effort to make it allowed and legal to actually study MDMA.

至少这是我的观点，MAPS 由一个名叫 Rick Doblin 的人创立，他们 30 年的努力值得巨大的赞誉，使真正研究 MDMA 成为可能并合法化。

The point I'm making is I know MAPS, and perhaps others, have done some small trials studying MDMA in individuals, high functioning individuals with some form of social anxiety.

我想说的是，我知道 MAPS，或许还有其他人，已经在患有某种社交焦虑的高功能个体中进行了一些研究 MDMA 的小试验。

I'm saying this because this is public.

我这么说是因为这是公开的。

There's another company called MindMed, which is one of the publicly traded psychedelic companies, and this is on their website.

还有另一家公司叫 MindMed，是上市迷幻药公司之一，这是在他们的网站上。

Full disclosure, I am on their scientific advisory board.

全面披露，我是他们的科学顾问委员会成员。

They are gearing up to do a trial of a, I don't want to get too technical, of a certain form of MDMA.

他们正准备对某种形式的 MDMA 进行试验，我不想说得太技术性。

There are two different types of MDMA.

MDMA 有两种不同类型。

They have these horrible names called enantiomers.

它们有一个可怕的名字，叫做对映体。

So the MDMA that is used for clinical trials that MAPS, MDMA is a molecule, and it has mirror images of itself, and one has the name RMDMA and one has the name SMDMA, and they're called the enantiomers because they're mirror images of each other and other labs over the years, not my lab, I deserve no credit for this, have done some studies to suggest that the S enantiomer is the one that has a higher interaction with the dopamine system, and the R enantiomer has a higher interaction with the serotonin system.

所以临床试验用的MDMA就是MAPS，MDMA是一种分子，它有自己的镜像，一个叫RMDMA，一个叫SMDMA，它们被称为对映体，因为多年来它们是彼此和其他实验室的镜像，而不是我的实验室，我对此不值得赞扬，做了一些研究表明S对映体是与多巴胺系统有更高相互作用的对映体，而R对映体有更高的对映体。与血清素系统的相互作用。

Andrew Huberman: Interesting.

安德鲁·休伯曼：有趣。

Robert Malenka: If you look at the literature on autism spectrum disorder in human subjects, there's a bunch of papers suggesting serotonergic systems are malfunctioning in individuals with autism spectrum disorder.

罗伯特·马伦卡：如果你看一下有关人​​类自闭症谱系障碍的文献，就会发现有很多论文表明患有自闭症谱系障碍的人的血清素系统出现了故障。

And if you look at reviews I've written or any of my papers, we probably cite some of the reviews.

如果您查看我写的评论或我的任何论文，我们可能会引用其中的一些评论。

Andrew Huberman: It's clear that serotonin is playing some role in social interactions, at least in mice and almost certainly in humans as well.

Andrew Huberman：很明显，血清素在社交互动中发挥着一定作用，至少在小鼠中如此，几乎肯定在人类中也是如此。

It's hard to imagine, based on data from everything from SSRIs to neurotoxic lesions of the human brain, etc., that it's not also playing at least a similar role in humans.

根据从 SSRI 到人脑神经毒性损伤等各种数据，很难想象它在人类身上至少没有发挥类似的作用。

Robert Malenka: Right, and I fully agree with that.

罗伯特·马伦卡：是的，我完全同意这一点。

And as we were discussing, there's a modestly extensive clinical literature, meaning literature from human subjects, suggesting that some aspects of brain systems that utilize serotonin as one of their signaling molecules, one of their neuromodulatory mechanisms, may not be functioning in some populations of individuals with autism spectrum disorder.

正如我们所讨论的，有相当广泛的临床文献，即来自人类受试者的文献，表明利用血清素作为其信号分子之一（其神经调节机制之一）的大脑系统的某些方面可能在某些患有自闭症谱系障碍的人群中无法发挥作用。

So based on that, based on my lab's work on the role of serotonin in modifying reward circuitry, its role in pro social behaviors, and the biggest clue, which I think you would agree with, Andrew, is this drug, MDMA.

基于此，基于我的实验室对血清素在改变奖赏回路中的作用、其在亲社会行为中的作用的研究，以及最大的线索，我想你会同意，安德鲁，就是这种药物，MDMA。

I mean this is why, I am not a druggie myself, I am a child of the '60s and '70s, which means I'm 20 years older than you, Andrew.

我的意思是，这就是为什么，我自己不是吸毒者，我是 60 年代和 70 年代的孩子，这意味着我比你大 20 岁，安德鲁。

I did experiment, like everybody of my generation, with psychoactive substances in the 70s, so I don't want to lie about my experiences.

和我这一代人一样，我在 70 年代曾尝试过精神活性物质，所以我不想对我的经历撒谎。

I also will say, like many neuroscientists, my experiences with psychoactive substances stimulated my interest in neuroscience.

我还要说，像许多神经科学家一样，我使用精神活性物质的经历激发了我对神经科学的兴趣。

How do these substances work?

这些物质如何发挥作用？

Why, when I was a young kid, the first time I got drunk on beer, why is that happening?

为什么我小时候第一次喝啤酒就醉了，为什么会发生这种事？

But more seriously, I use drugs in my research as powerful probes of brain function with the advantage that, and now I'm talking scientist to scientist with you, Andrew, they have molecular targets that we can manipulate in rigorous ways.

但更严重的是，我在研究中使用药物作为大脑功能的强大探针，其优点是，现在我正在与你进行科学家对科学家的交谈，安德鲁，他们有我们可以以严格的方式操纵的分子目标。

We can figure out where in the brain they act using the modern tools of neuroscience, which your audience may not know about.

我们可以使用神经科学的现代工具找出它们在大脑中的作用位置，而您的观众可能不知道。

I'm saying this to you, conditional knockout mice, rescue experiments.

我对你说的是，条件敲除小鼠，拯救实验。

We can do all this fancy stuff, and we can use drugs to study even things as complicated as empathy.

我们可以做所有这些奇特的事情，我们可以使用药物来研究甚至像同理心这样复杂的事情。

And I really do believe that it's why I've been interested in MDMA for decades, is there's a clue there.

我确实相信这就是我几十年来对 MDMA 感兴趣的原因，其中有什么线索吗？

How does a drug that has molecular targets in the dopamine neuromodulatory system, in the serotonin neuromodulatory system have such a powerful effect, which is relatively specific on social interactions?

一种在多巴胺神经调节系统、血清素神经调节系统中具有分子靶标的药物如何具有如此强大的作用，并且对社交互动具有相对特异性？

It doesn't make you want to go eat more donuts.

它不会让你想去吃更多的甜甜圈。

I don't know, for me, there's a clue there.

我不知道，对我来说，那里有一条线索。

There's something really important from that phenomenological observation in the human experiences that we can learn from.

我们可以从人类经验中的现象学观察中学到一些非常重要的东西。

Andrew Huberman: I completely agree about MDMA, and we've done a couple of podcasts about psilocybin and by extension, LSD, because even though there are differences there, psilocybin, LSD, as far as we understand, largely work through activation of the serotonin 2A receptor, broadening of a brain network connectivity.

Andrew Huberman：我完全同意 MDMA，我们已经制作了几个关于裸盖菇素和 LSD 的播客，因为尽管存在差异，但据我们了解，裸盖菇素、LSD 主要通过激活 5-羟色胺 2A 受体、扩大大脑网络连接来发挥作用。

So again, it's serotonin, serotonin, serotonin, but different receptors, very different subjective experience.

再说一次，它是血清素，血清素，血清素，但是不同的受体，非常不同的主观体验。

And I guess perhaps the best way to describe it is that LSD and Psilocybin are almost always considered mystical in their subjective effects, whereas MDMA can be an empathogen, an actogen, and so serotonin acting through different receptor systems, impacting and creating very different subjective experiences.

我想也许最好的描述方式是，LSD 和赛洛西宾的主观效果几乎总是被认为是神秘的，而 MDMA 可以是一种移情剂、一种促动剂，因此血清素通过不同的受体系统发挥作用，影响和创造非常不同的主观体验。

I also agree.

我也同意。

I think MDMA is particularly interesting for the neuroscientist, perhaps also because, at least to my knowledge, there is no substance in nature, no plant, no mushroom, no ergot, no mold that creates this increase in dopamine and serotonin simultaneously.

我认为 MDMA 对于神经科学家来说特别有趣，也许还因为，至少据我所知，自然界中没有任何物质，没有植物，没有蘑菇，没有麦角，没有霉菌可以同时产生多巴胺和血清素的增加。

MDMA is a synthesized molecule, and so it may be one of the, again, highlighting all the safety issues and things we talked about before.

MDMA 是一种合成分子，因此它可能是再次强调我们之前讨论过的所有安全问题和事情之一。

It may be one of the great, at least experimental probes of the brain that humans have developed, and it may be one of the great therapeutic probes that folks like MAPS are now doing such fantastic work on.

它可能是人类开发的最伟大的、至少是实验性的大脑探针之一，也可能是像 MAPS 这样的人们现在正在做的伟大的治疗探针之一。

So I'm very excited about what's happening with the research on MDMA, and I'm so glad that your laboratory has parsed some of the relative roles of serotonin, the receptors involved.

因此，我对 MDMA 的研究进展感到非常兴奋，我很高兴你们的实验室已经解析了血清素（所涉及的受体）的一些相对作用。

Since we mentioned serotonin 2A for psilocybin and LSD, we'd be remiss if we didn't say that this wonderful paper that we will provide a link to in the show note captions.

既然我们提到了裸盖菇素和 LSD 的血清素 2A，如果我们没有说这篇精彩的论文，我们将在节目注释标题中提供链接，那就是失职了。

By the way, folks, that Rob Malenka here's lab focused on the serotonin 1B receptor, so even just differences in receptor subtypes leading to profoundly different subjective outcomes, I find that to be just one of the most important areas that one could even think about, let alone work on.

顺便说一句，各位，Rob Malenka 的实验室专注于 5-羟色胺 1B 受体，所以即使只是受体亚型的差异导致截然不同的主观结果，我发现这只是人们可以思考的最重要的领域之一，更不用说致力于研究了。

Robert Malenka: Thank you.

罗伯特·马伦卡：谢谢。

I appreciate the compliment.

我很感激你的赞美。

I will also say, like everything we're finding, it's not all about only serotonin 1B, but as you know, again, pointing to the amazing and powerful complexity of the human brain or the mammalian brain, there are 16 different serotonin parking spots or receptors that are distributed in different brain areas in complex ways.

我还要说，就像我们发现的一切一样，这不仅仅与血清素 1B 有关，而且正如您所知，人类大脑或哺乳动物大脑具有惊人而强大的复杂性，有 16 个不同的血清素停车位或受体以复杂的方式分布在不同的大脑区域。

And so that's daunting.

所以这是令人畏惧的。

But it also offers possibilities for developing very novel therapeutic agents that activate or inhibit these in complex ways, hopefully for therapeutic benefit.

但它也为开发非常新颖的治疗剂提供了可能性，这些治疗剂以复杂的方式激活或抑制这些疾病，有望获得治疗益处。

Andrew Huberman: So, before we conclude, I'm very curious to get your opinion on what you see as the landscape of the work on psychedelics and MDMA, which isn't really a classic psychedelic, but all these drugs that, as you pointed out during your youth, were used recreationally and for mind exploration and expansion and are now being probed as potential therapeutics for various mental health challenges, as well as potentially expanding consciousness, empathy, and all of that.

Andrew Huberman：所以，在我们结束之前，我非常想听听您对迷幻药和 MDMA 工作前景的看法，这并不是真正的经典迷幻药，但正如您在年轻时指出的那样，所有这些药物都被用于娱乐、思维探索和扩展，现在正在被探索作为各种心理健康挑战的潜在治疗方法，以及潜在的扩展意识、同理心等。

I mean, not getting into the details of the legal issues that have to be overcome, not even necessarily talking about the clinical trials or the people doing the work in different laboratories, but just, I have to imagine this must amuse, tickle, surprise you.

我的意思是，不涉及必须克服的法律问题的细节，甚至不一定谈论临床试验或在不同实验室从事工作的人员，但只是，我必须想象这一定会让你感到有趣、兴奋、惊讶。

I mean, how do you feel about what you're seeing now?

我的意思是，你对现在所看到的感觉如何？

Because it is a very exciting time for these compounds.

因为对于这些化合物来说，这是一个非常激动人心的时刻。

Robert Malenka: It tickles me and excites me with the appropriate caution.

罗伯特·马伦卡：它让我感到痒痒，并在适当的谨慎下让我兴奋。

So I do think drugs are very powerful probes of brain function.

所以我确实认为药物是大脑功能非常强大的探针。

I think this class of drug, which, as you correctly pointed out, people use the term psychedelics scientifically.

我认为这类药物，正如您正确指出的那样，人们科学地使用迷幻药一词。

When pursuing their understanding, their therapeutic potential, their mechanism of action.

当追求他们的理解、他们的治疗潜力、他们的作用机制时。

It's more useful to divide them up into different categories.

将它们分为不同的类别会更有用。

The classic hallucinogens, which are LSD and psilocybin, the intact or empathogens, which is MDMA, which is really a qualitatively different drug.

经典的致幻剂是 LSD 和裸盖菇素，完整的致幻剂是 MDMA，它确实是一种性质不同的药物。

There are other substances which we don't have time to talk about, like ibogaine and ayahuasca, which are very complex, and peyote.

还有其他物质我们没有时间讨论，例如非常复杂的伊博加因和死藤水，以及仙人掌。

But nevertheless, I am tickled and excited as a child of the '60s and '70s.

但尽管如此，作为一个60、70年代的孩子，我还是感到又痒又兴奋。

But I am also not evangelical about their use and their therapeutic potential.

但我也不热衷于它们的用途和治疗潜力。

So as you can imagine what I'm going to say, I think they should be the subject of rigorous, sophisticated, and most importantly, ethical research.

所以你可以想象我要说什么，我认为它们应该成为严格、复杂、最重要的是伦理研究的主题。

I think we could learn a lot about how the brain works and its amazing capabilities.

我认为我们可以了解很多关于大脑如何工作及其惊人能力的知识。

I think they may notice, I say may have therapeutic potential, but I do not think they're going to be miracle cures.

我认为他们可能会注意到，我说可能具有治疗潜力，但我不认为它们会成为奇迹。

And I do worry, as somebody who lived through the '60s and '70s and watched, because of the history of Timothy Leary and his colleagues, and the political landscape of how they were being used and promoted, I am cautious that these substances need to be studied scientifically and rigorously, and I hope that's the case.

我确实担心，作为一个经历过 60 年代和 70 年代并观看过的人，由于蒂莫西·利里 (Timothy Leary) 和他的同事的历史，以及他们如何使用和推广的政治格局，我对这些物质需要进行科学和严格的研究持谨慎态度，我希望情况确实如此。

And I want to caution your audience that not everybody should take these substances.

我想提醒你们的观众，并不是每个人都应该服用这些物质。

They are not miracle cures.

它们不是灵丹妙药。

And while they certainly may be of benefit to certain individuals who are suffering, and they certainly may provide unusual and "mystical" experiences for certain individuals, I am very concerned that there are individuals out there that will gain access to these substances and have very bad experiences, because anybody who grew up in the '60s and '70s knows all about bad trips, and truth be told, I have had a bad trip or two in the '70s, and I'm glad I did, because it made me...

虽然它们肯定可能对某些正在受苦的人有益，并且它们肯定可能为某些人提供不寻常和“神秘”的经历，但我非常担心有些人会获得这些物质并获得非常糟糕的经历，因为任何在 60 年代和 70 年代长大的人都知道糟糕的旅行，说实话，我在 70 年代经历过一两次糟糕的旅行，我很高兴我这么做了，因为它让我......

I have no idea what a suicidal depression feels like where you are experiencing such a darkness, such a lack of hope that a rational decision is to end one's life.

我不知道自杀性抑郁症是什么感觉，当你经历如此黑暗、如此缺乏希望时，理性的决定就是结束自己的生命。

And I think the closest I ever came to that experience is a bad trip on LSD.

我认为我最接近这种经历是一次服用LSD的糟糕旅行。

And I do have concerns that if you look at the clinical trials that have been done, the well done, not the anecdotal, I went and saw some psychedelic therapist that a friend recommended and it did wonders for me.

我确实担心，如果你看看已经完成的临床试验，做得很好，而不是轶事，我去看了朋友推荐的一些迷幻治疗师，它对我产生了奇迹。

But the well controlled clinical trials that are being done by certain biotechs, some academic institutions, they have very strict, what are known as inclusionary and exclusionary criteria about who is allowed to participate in the subject, and they rule out a lot of people.

但是某些生物技术公司和一些学术机构正在进行严格控制的临床试验，他们对于谁可以参与该主题有非常严格的所谓包容性和排除性标准，并且他们排除了很多人。

So I don't mean to be overly cautious, but I do worry that if some people take these substances and bad things happen, it will slow down the excitement that's currently happening, and it will make it more difficult for serious human subjects researchers, preclinical researchers, to study these substances in the way they deserve to be studied.

所以我并不是要过于谨慎，但我确实担心，如果有些人服用这些物质并发生不好的事情，它会减缓目前正在发生的兴奋，并且会让认真的人类受试者研究人员、临床前研究人员更难以应有的方式研究这些物质。

So I hope that articulates my viewpoint.

所以我希望这能表达我的观点。

Andrew Huberman: I think it does, and thank you for that viewpoint.

Andrew Huberman：我认为确实如此，感谢您的观点。

It's an important counterbalance on a lot of the excitement that we hear about these days.

这是对我们这些天听到的许多兴奋的重要平衡。

I think the state of Kentucky just recently decided to give $42 million from the opioid lawsuit settlement with Purdue pharmaceuticals to the study of ibogaine.

我认为肯塔基州最近刚刚决定从与普渡制药公司的阿片类药物诉讼和解中拿出 4200 万美元用于伊博加因的研究。

So there's a lot happening.

所以发生了很多事情。

Robert Malenka: Just to be clear, I think there's no problem with that, and I actually would support that.

罗伯特·马伦卡：需要澄清的是，我认为这没有问题，而且我实际上会支持这一点。

As long as the studies of ibogaine are done thoughtfully, carefully, and ethically, I see no problem with testing its efficacy in certain mental illnesses and addiction.

只要对伊博加因的研究是深思熟虑、仔细和合乎道德的，我认为测试其对某些精神疾病和成瘾的功效是没有问题的。

And it's actually a topic I know a little bit about, but we'll save that for another time.

这实际上是一个我稍微了解的话题，但我们下次再说。

Andrew Huberman: Great.

安德鲁·休伯曼： 太好了。

Well, first off, I want to thank you for coming here and sharing your knowledge with all of us.

首先，我要感谢您来到这里并与我们所有人分享您的知识。

For me, it's been a real thrill.

对我来说，这真是令人兴奋。

And I also just want to thank you for the incredible amount of work that you've done over the years.

我还要感谢您多年来所做的大量工作。

I know it's still ongoing.

我知道它仍在继续。

You're by no means retiring.

你绝对不会退休。

I certainly hope not.

我当然希望不会。

But I'm sure the listeners have now gotten a clear picture of the enormous number of contributions and areas you've worked on everywhere from, as I mentioned earlier, neuroplasticity at the cellular level, molecular level, addiction, work relating to social cognition and social interactions, rather as it pertains to autism models, and now psychedelics and empathy, and on and on and again, trained so many prominent scientists in our field, and to take time out of your schedule to come sit here with us and share some of that knowledge and stimulate our thinking and, as you mentioned, raise still more questions that need to be resolved is a real privilege.

但我确信听众现在已经清楚地了解了您在各地所做的大量贡献和领域，正如我之前提到的，从细胞水平的神经可塑性、分子水平、成瘾、与社会认知和社会互动有关的工作，而不是与自闭症模型有关的工作，到现在的致幻剂和同理心，等等，一遍又一遍地培训了我们领域的许多杰出科学家，并从您的日程中抽出时间来和我们坐在一起分享一些正如您所提到的，了解知识并激发我们的思考并提出更多需要解决的问题是一种真正的荣幸。

So thank you ever so much.

所以非常感谢你。

And indeed, as you just mentioned, we'd love to have you back again for another conversation.

事实上，正如您刚才提到的，我们很高兴您再次回来进行另一次对话。

Robert Malenka: All I can say is I want to thank you for having me.

罗伯特·马伦卡：我只能说，我要感谢你邀请我。

I was a little hesitant or nervous about coming here, and now I want to come back.

我对来这里有点犹豫或紧张，现在我想回来。

So that was a blast, what I just did with you, and I'd be happy to continue this conversation anytime.

所以我刚刚和你一起做的事情真是太棒了，我很乐意随时继续这个对话。

So thank you for your very sophisticated and thoughtful questions.

因此，感谢您提出非常复杂和深思熟虑的问题。

Andrew Huberman: To be continued.

安德鲁·休伯曼：未完待续。

Robert Malenka: Yeah, to be continued.

罗伯特·马伦卡：是的，未完待续。

Andrew Huberman: Thank you for joining me for today's discussion, all about neuroplasticity, reward systems, social connection, and empathy with Dr. Robert Malenka.

安德鲁·休伯曼：感谢您参加今天的讨论，讨论的主题是神经可塑性、奖励系统、社会联系以及与罗伯特·马伦卡博士的同理心。

If you're learning from and or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel.

如果您正在学习或喜欢此播客，请订阅我们的 YouTube 频道。

That's a terrific, zero cost way to support us.

这是支持我们的绝佳、零成本的方式。

In addition, please subscribe to the podcast on Spotify and Apple.

此外，请订阅 Spotify 和 Apple 上的播客。

And on both Spotify and Apple you can leave us up to a five star review.

在 Spotify 和 Apple 上，您都可以给我们留下五星级的评价。

If you have questions for me or comments about the podcast or guests that you'd like me to consider hosting on the Huberman Lab Podcast, please put those in the comments section on YouTube.

如果您对我有疑问或对您希望我考虑在 Huberman 实验室播客上主持的播客或嘉宾有意见，请将这些意见放入 YouTube 的评论部分。

I do read all the comments.

我确实阅读了所有评论。

In addition, please check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode.

此外，请查看今天节目开头和整个节目中提到的赞助商。

That's the best way to support this podcast.

这是支持这个播客的最佳方式。

Not so much on today's episode, but on many previous episodes of the Huberman Lab podcast, we discuss supplements while supplements aren't necessary for everybody, many people derive tremendous benefit from them for things like enhancing sleep, hormone support and focus, and much more.

今天的节目不多，但在 Huberman Lab 播客的许多前几集中，我们讨论了补充剂，但补充剂并不是每个人都需要的，许多人从它们中获得了巨大的好处，例如增强睡眠、激素支持和注意力等等。

The Huberman Lab Podcast is partnered with Momentous Supplements.

Huberman 实验室播客与 Momentous Supplements 合作。

If you're interested in learning more about the supplements discussed on the Huberman Lab podcast, please go to livemomentous, spelled O-U-S.

如果您有兴趣了解有关 Huberman Lab 播客上讨论的补充剂的更多信息，请访问 livemomentous，拼写为 O-U-S。

That's livemomentous.com/huberman.

这是 livemomentous.com/huberman。

If you're not already following me on social media, I am Huberman Lab on all social media platforms.

如果您还没有在社交媒体上关注我，我是所有社交媒体平台上的 Huberman Lab。

So that means Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, and LinkedIn.

这意味着 Instagram、Twitter、Facebook 和 LinkedIn。

On all those platforms I post content, some of which overlaps with the content of the Huberman Lab podcast, but much of which is distinct from the content of the Huberman Lab podcast.

我在所有这些平台上发布内容，其中一些内容与 Huberman Lab 播客的内容重叠，但其中大部分内容与 Huberman Lab 播客的内容不同。

If you haven't already subscribed to the Huberman Lab podcast.

如果您还没有订阅 Huberman Lab 播客。

The Neural Network Newsletter is a monthly newsletter.

神经网络通讯是每月通讯。

It is completely zero cost, and it includes protocols or what we call toolkits that you can download.

它完全是零成本，并且包含您可以下载的协议或我们所说的工具包。

So, for instance, toolkits for enhancing sleep, a toolkit for learning, neuroplasticity, toolkits for fitness, and for much more.

例如，增强睡眠的工具包、学习的工具包、神经可塑性、健身的工具包等等。

To sign up for the Neural Network Newsletter, simply go to hubermanlab.com, go to the menu and scroll down to newsletter.

要注册神经网络新闻通讯，只需访问 hubermanlab.com，进入菜单并向下滚动到新闻通讯。

You sign up by providing your email, but I want to be clear that we do not share your email with anybody.

您通过提供电子邮件进行注册，但我想明确的是，我们不会与任何人分享您的电子邮件。

Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Robert Malenka.

再次感谢您参加今天与罗伯特·马伦卡博士的讨论。

And last, but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.

最后但同样重要的是，感谢您对科学的兴趣。