Dr. Rhonda Patrick: Micronutrients for Health & Longevity
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.
欢迎来到休伯曼实验室播客，我们在这里讨论科学和基于科学的日常生活工具。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm Andrew Huberman and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.
我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。
Today my guest is Dr. Rhonda Patrick.
今天我的客人是朗达·帕特里克博士。
Dr. Patrick is known to some of you as a podcaster and one of the premier educators in the landscape of mitochondria, metabolism, stress, and other aspects of brain and body health.
帕特里克博士是你们中的一些人所熟知的播客，也是线粒体、新陈代谢、压力以及大脑和身体健康其他方面的顶级教育家之一。
Her podcast, "Found My Fitness," is one of the premier podcasts in the world for disseminating knowledge about how the brain and body work, and how we can use behavioral tools, micronutrients, supplements, and other protocols in order to maximize our immediate and long-term health.
她的播客“发现我的健康”是世界上最重要的播客之一，传播有关大脑和身体如何工作的知识，以及我们如何使用行为工具、微量营养素、补充剂和其他方案来最大限度地提高我们的近期和长期健康。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Dr. Patrick did her formal training in cell biology, exploring the links between mitochondrial metabolism apoptosis, which is naturally occurring cell death, which is a healthy form of cell death that occurs in our brain and body throughout the lifespan; and cancer biology.
帕特里克博士接受了细胞生物学方面的正式培训，探索线粒体代谢凋亡之间的联系，线粒体代谢凋亡是自然发生的细胞死亡，是在我们的大脑和身体整个生命周期中发生的一种健康的细胞死亡形式；和癌症生物学。
She then went on to do postdoctoral training with Dr. Bruce Ames, investigating the effects of micronutrients, meaning vitamins and minerals, and how they affect metabolism, inflammation, DNA damage, and the aging process.
然后，她继续跟随 Bruce Ames 博士进行博士后培训，研究微量营养素（即维生素和矿物质）的影响，以及它们如何影响新陈代谢、炎症、DNA 损伤和衰老过程。
She has published landmark review articles and primary research, meaning original research articles, in some of the premier journals in the world, including Science, Nature Cell Biology, Trends In Cell Biology, and FASEB.
她在《Science》、《Nature Cell Biology》、《Trends In Cell Biology》和《FASEB》等世界顶级期刊上发表了具有里程碑意义的评论文章和初步研究（即原创研究文章）。
Indeed, Dr. Patrick is an expert in an extraordinarily broad range of topics that impact our health.
事实上，帕特里克博士是影响我们健康的广泛主题的专家。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
For today's episode, we focus primarily on the major categories of micronutrients that are essential for brain and body health.
在今天的节目中，我们主要关注对大脑和身体健康至关重要的微量营养素的主要类别。
I have to confess that before the discussion with Dr. Patrick, I was aware of only one of the categories of micronutrients that we discuss, and so you'll notice that I am rapt with attention throughout the discussion.
我必须承认，在与帕特里克博士讨论之前，我只知道我们讨论的微量营养素类别之一，因此您会注意到我在整个讨论过程中全神贯注。
And I think that you'll want to have a pen and paper handy because she offers not only a very clear understanding of the biological mechanisms by which other micronutrients operate, but some very clear and actionable tools and items that we can all embark on if we are to optimize our brain and body health.
我认为你会想要手边有笔和纸，因为她不仅提供了对其他微量营养素运作的生物机制的非常清晰的理解，而且还提供了一些非常清晰且可操作的工具和项目，如果我们要优化我们的大脑和身体健康，我们都可以使用这些工具和项目。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We also discuss behavioral protocols.
我们还讨论了行为协议。
Dr. Patrick is well-known for her understanding of the scientific literature on sauna and the use of heat and cold for optimizing things like metabolism, longevity, cardiovascular health, and I'm delighted to say that we discuss that as well, and how behavioral protocols can interface with supplement-based and nutritional protocols.
帕特里克博士因其对桑拿科学文献的理解以及利用热和冷来优化新陈代谢、长寿、心血管健康等方面的知识而闻名，我很高兴地说我们也讨论了这一点，以及行为方案如何与补充剂和营养方案相结合。
I'm confident that you'll learn a tremendous amount of information from Dr. Patrick, much of which is immediately actionable.
我相信您将从帕特里克博士那里学到大量信息，其中大部分可以立即付诸实践。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And if you're not already following and listening to her excellent podcast, you'll absolutely want to do that.
如果您还没有关注和收听她精彩的播客，您绝对会想要这样做。
It's foundmyfitness.com is the website where you can get access to that podcast.
您可以在foundmyfitness.com 上访问该播客。
It's also on Apple and Spotify and YouTube as "Found My Fitness." Dr. Patrick also has a terrific newsletter that I recommend signing up for.
它在 Apple、Spotify 和 YouTube 上也被称为“Found My Fitness”。帕特里克博士还有一份很棒的时事通讯，我建议您订阅。
It's foundmyfitness.com/newsletter is where you'll find it, and it includes research on fasting, micronutrients, sleep, depression, fitness, longevity, and far more, along of course with actionable protocols.
您可以在foundmyfitness.com/newsletter 找到相关内容，其中包括有关禁食、微量营养素、睡眠、抑郁、健身、长寿等方面的研究，当然还有可行的方案。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm pleased to announce that the Huberman Lab podcast is now partnered with Momentous Supplements.
我很高兴地宣布 Huberman Lab 播客现已与 Momentous Supplements 合作。
Our motivation for partnering with Momentous is to provide people one location where they can go to access the highest quality supplements in the specific dosages that are best supported by the scientific research, and that are discussed during various episodes of the Huberman Lab podcast.
我们与 Momentous 合作的动机是为人们提供一个可以获取特定剂量的最高品质补充剂的地方，这些补充剂得到了科学研究的最佳支持，并且在 Huberman Lab 播客的各个节目中进行了讨论。
If you go to livemomentous.com/huberman, you will see those formulations.
如果您访问 livemomentous.com/huberman，您会看到这些表述。
I should mention that we are going to add more formulations in the months to come.
我应该提到的是，我们将在未来几个月内添加更多配方。
And you'll see specific suggestions about how best to take those supplements, meaning what dosages and times of day and, in fact, how to combine those supplements with specific behavioral protocols that have been discussed on the podcast and are science supported, in order to derive the maximum benefit from those supplements.
您会看到有关如何最好地服用这些补充剂的具体建议，即每天的剂量和时间，以及实际上如何将这些补充剂与播客上讨论过且得到科学支持的特定行为方案相结合，以便从这些补充剂中获得最大益处。
And many of you will probably also be pleased to learn that Momentous ships not just within the United States, but also internationally.
你们中的许多人可能也会很高兴得知 Momentous 不仅在美国境内发售，而且还在国际上发售。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So once again, if you go to livemomentous.com/huberman, you'll find what we firmly believe to be the best-quality supplements in the precise dosages and the best protocols for taking those supplements, along with the ideal behavioral protocols to combine with those supplement formulations.
因此，如果您访问 livemomentous.com/huberman，您会发现我们坚信是最优质的补充剂，其剂量精确，服用这些补充剂的最佳方案，以及与这些补充剂配方相结合的理想行为方案。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.
在开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。
It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero-cost-to-consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public.
然而，我的愿望和努力的一部分是将有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本消费者信息带给公众。
In keeping with that theme, I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast.
为了与这个主题保持一致，我要感谢今天播客的赞助商。
And now for my discussion with Dr. Rhonda Patrick.
现在我与朗达帕特里克博士进行讨论。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Rhonda, welcome.
朗达，欢迎。
This has been a long time coming.
这已经是很长一段时间了。
Even longer than you know because even before we discussed you coming on this podcast as a guest, I've been watching your content for a very long time.
甚至比你知道的还要长，因为甚至在我们讨论你作为嘉宾参加这个播客之前，我已经观看你的内容很长时间了。
So, I want to start off by saying thank you.
所以，我想首先说声谢谢。
You were the spearhead to break through from academic science to public education, so I consider you first in, and the rest of us are just in your wake.
您是从学术科学突破到公共教育的先锋，所以我认为您是第一个，我们其他人紧随您之后。
So, thank you for that.
所以，谢谢你。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
Oh, that is so kind.
噢，真是太贴心了。
Thank you.
谢谢。
Thank you so much.
太感谢了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, it's absolutely true.
嗯，这绝对是真的。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
I am so excited to be here having a conversation with you, so thank you.
我很高兴能在这里与您交谈，所以谢谢您。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, it's absolutely true.
嗯，这绝对是真的。
If anyone does their research, they'll realize that the statement I just made is absolutely true and there isn't even a close second.
如果有人进行研究，他们就会意识到我刚才所说的绝对正确，甚至没有第二个。
Any other public-facing educators that have formal science training and do regular posting of content came in several years after you initiated it.
任何其他接受过正式科学培训并定期发布内容的面向公众的教育工作者都是在您发起后几年才出现的。
So, we're all grateful.
所以，我们都很感激。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I have so many questions, but I want to start off with kind of a new but old theme that you're very familiar with.
我有很多问题，但我想从一个你非常熟悉的新但旧的主题开始。
So temperature is a powerful stimulus, as we know, for biology.
因此，正如我们所知，温度对生物学来说是一种强大的刺激。
And you've covered a lot of material related to the utility of cold, but also the utility of heat.
您已经介绍了许多与冷的效用以及热的效用相关的材料。
And as I learn more and more from your content and from the various papers, it seems that there's a bit of a conundrum in that cold can stimulate a number of things like increases in metabolism, brown fat, et cetera, et cetera; hopefully you'll tell us more about those.
随着我从你的内容和各种论文中了解到越来越多的信息，似乎有一个难题，那就是寒冷会刺激许多事情，比如新陈代谢的增加、棕色脂肪等等；等等。希望您能告诉我们更多有关这些的信息。
But heat seems to be able to do a lot of the same things.
但热量似乎可以做很多同样的事情。
And I wonder whether or not the discomfort of cold, deliberate cold exposure, and the discomfort of heat might be anchoring to the same pathway.
我想知道寒冷的不适、故意暴露在寒冷中的不适以及炎热的不适是否可能与同一条途径有关。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So would you mind sharing with us a little bit about what happens when we get into a cold environment on purpose, and what happens when we get into a hot environment on purpose?
那么您介意与我们分享一下当我们故意进入寒冷的环境时会发生什么以及当我们故意进入炎热的环境时会发生什么吗？
And I'm hoping that this might eventually lead us to some point of convergent understanding.
我希望这最终能让我们达成某种共识。
So, if you would?
那么，如果你愿意的话？
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
I would love to.
我很乐意。
Let's take a step back, I think you brought up a really important point here.
让我们退一步，我认为你在这里提出了一个非常重要的观点。
And I think that point has to do with the intermittent challenging of yourself and whether that is through temperature changes, like cold or heat, or through other types of stressors, like physical activity or perhaps even dietary compounds that are found in plants, these are things like polyphenols or flavanols.
我认为这一点与你自己间歇性的挑战有关，无论是通过温度变化，如冷或热，还是通过其他类型的压力源，如体力活动，甚至可能是植物中发现的膳食化合物，这些是多酚或黄烷醇等物质。
Humans, we evolved to intermittently challenge ourselves.
人类，我们进化到间歇性地挑战自己。
And before we had Instacart, where you could basically just get your food delivered to you, before the industrial revolution occurred, we were out hunting.
在Instacart出现之前，在工业革命发生之前，你基本上可以把食物送到你手上，我们都在外出打猎。
And I say we, not us, but humans.
我说的是我们，不是我们，而是人类。
We were out gathering, were moving, and we had to be physically fit.
我们出去聚会、搬家，我们必须保持身体健康。
You couldn't catch your prey if you were a sedentary slob, right?
如果你是一个久坐的懒汉，你就无法抓住猎物，对吗？
You were moving and you had to pick your berries, you had to move.
你在搬家，你必须采摘你的浆果，你必须搬家。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
And so physical activity was a part of everyday life, and caloric restriction or intermittent fasting was also a part of it.
因此，身体活动是日常生活的一部分，热量限制或间歇性禁食也是其中的一部分。
This is another type of challenge.
这是另一种类型的挑战。
We didn't always have a prey that we caught, or maybe temperatures were such that there was nothing for us to gather.
我们并不总是能捕捉到猎物，或者也许气温太高，我们没有什么可以采集的。
So food scarcity was something common, as well as eating plants, so getting these compounds that I mentioned.
所以食物短缺是很常见的事情，吃植物也是很常见的，所以获取我提到的这些化合物也是如此。
So these are all types of stress, intermittent challenges that activate genetic pathways in our bodies.
因此，这些都是激活我们体内遗传途径的压力和间歇性挑战。
These are often referred to in science as stress response pathways because they respond to a little bit of stress.
这些在科学上通常被称为压力反应途径，因为它们会对一点压力做出反应。
Physical activity is strenuous, fasting is a little bit stressful, heat, cold, these things are all types of little intermittent challenges.
体力活动很剧烈，禁食有点压力，热，冷，这些都是间歇性的小挑战。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
And there is a lot of crosstalk between these stressors and the genetic pathways that they activate.
这些压力源和它们激活的遗传途径之间存在很多串扰。
And these genetic pathways that are activated help you deal with stress.
这些被激活的遗传途径可以帮助您应对压力。
And they do it in a way that is not only beneficial to help you deal with that little stressor, exercise or heat, it stays active and it helps you deal with the stress of normal metabolism, normal immune function happening, just life, aging.
他们这样做的方式不仅有利于帮助你应对小小的压力源、运动或热量，它还能保持活跃，帮助你应对正常新陈代谢、正常免疫功能发生、生活、衰老带来的压力。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
So this concept is referred to as hormesis, right?
所以这个概念被称为毒物兴奋效应，对吗？
This is a little bit of stressful challenge that activates these stress response pathways in a beneficial way that is a net positive, that actually has a very profound antioxidant, anti-inflammatory response, or whatever the response is.
这是一个有点压力的挑战，它以一种有益的方式激活这些压力反应途径，这是一种净积极的方式，实际上具有非常深远的抗氧化、抗炎反应或任何反应。
It could be the production of more stem cells, these are cells that help regenerate different cells within tissues.
它可能是产生更多的干细胞，这些细胞有助于组织内不同细胞的再生。
Or something like autophagy, which is a process that can clear away all the gunk inside of our cells, pieces of DNA, protein aggregates.
或者像自噬这样的过程，可以清除我们细胞内所有的垃圾、DNA 片段、蛋白质聚集体。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
So you'll find that these stress response pathways are activated by a variety of stressors.
所以你会发现这些压力反应途径是由各种压力源激活的。
So for example, one pathway is called heat shock proteins.
例如，一种途径称为热休克蛋白。
And as their name would apply, one would go, "Oh, they're activated by heat." Well correct, they are activated, very robustly, by heat and we can talk about that.
正如他们的名字所应用的，人们会说，“哦，他们是被热激活的。”嗯，正确的，它们通过热量被非常强烈地激活，我们可以谈论这一点。
But you can eat a plant like broccoli sprouts, which is high in something called sulforaphane.
但你可以吃西兰花芽等植物，它富含一种叫做萝卜硫素的物质。
This is a compound that is sort of like a hormetic compound, or as David Sinclair likes to say, it's a xenohormetic compound.
这是一种有点像兴奋剂化合物的化合物，或者正如大卫·辛克莱喜欢说的那样，它是一种异毒兴奋剂化合物。
I love that.
我喜欢那个。
I love that term.
我喜欢这个词。
And it activates heat shock proteins, among other things.
除其他外，它还能激活热休克蛋白。
It also activates a very powerful detoxification pathway called Nrf2, which helps you detoxify things like carcinogens that you're exposed to.
它还激活一种非常强大的解毒途径，称为 Nrf2，可以帮助您对接触到的致癌物质等物质进行解毒。
Well guess what?
好吧你猜怎么着？
Heat activates that.
热量会激活它。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
So what I'm getting at is there is overlap, like cold also activates heat shock proteins.
所以我想说的是两者之间存在重叠，就像寒冷也会激活热休克蛋白一样。
You're like, "Really, cold?" Yes, these are stress response pathways and they are activated by various types of stressors.
你会说：“真的很冷吗？”是的，这些是压力反应途径，它们被各种类型的压力源激活。
Now, you're going to more robustly activate heat shock proteins from heat versus cold, but there is some overlap.
现在，与冷相比，您将更强有力地激活热休克蛋白，但存在一些重叠。
So, I think that sort of forms the foundation there.
所以，我认为这构成了那里的基础。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, that's very helpful.
是的，这非常有帮助。
And it brings to mind, in the context of the nervous system, I always tell people, you only have a small kit of neurochemicals to work with.
这让我想起，在神经系统的背景下，我总是告诉人们，你只有一小部分神经化学物质可以使用。
There isn't dopamine for Netflix, and then dopamine for relationship, and dopamine for work, et cetera.
Netflix 没有多巴胺，人际关系没有多巴胺，工作也没有多巴胺，等等。
Dopamine is a generic pathway by which motivation, craving and pursuit emerge, et cetera, just like adrenaline is a generic theme of many different behaviors.
多巴胺是动机、渴望和追求等出现的通用途径，就像肾上腺素是许多不同行为的通用主题一样。
And it seems that it is the job of biological systems to be able to take a diverse range of inputs, even unknown inputs.
生物系统的职责似乎就是能够接受各种各样的输入，甚至是未知的输入。
Like, we don't know what technology will look like in three years, but you can bet that some of those novel technologies will tap into the very systems that I'm talking about now, and there certainly will be other stressors to come about that will tap into these pathways.
就像，我们不知道三年后技术会是什么样子，但你可以打赌，其中一些新技术将利用我现在正在谈论的系统，而且肯定还会出现其他压力源，这些压力源将利用这些途径。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I have two questions related to what you just said, before we talk a little bit more about cold and heat.
在我们进一步讨论冷和热之前，我有两个与你刚才所说的相关的问题。
You mentioned plants as a route to creating intermittent challenge.
您提到植物是创造间歇性挑战的一种途径。
There's a lot of debate, mostly online, about whether or not plants are our friends or plants are trying to kill us.
关于植物是否是我们的朋友或植物是否试图杀死我们，有很多争论，主要是在网上。
The extreme version, from the pure carnivore diet types, is that plants are trying to kill us.
纯粹的食肉动物饮食类型的极端版本是植物试图杀死我们。
From the plant-based-diet folks, it seems like it's more about what's healthy for the planet, animals, and maybe for us.
对于植物性饮食的人们来说，似乎更多的是关于什么对地球、动物甚至我们来说是健康的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But if we set aside that argument and we just raise the hypothesis that plants have compounds that are bad for us, but maybe by consuming them in small amounts, they're creating this hormesis-type scenario.
但如果我们抛开这个论点，我们只是提出这样的假设：植物含有对我们有害的化合物，但也许通过少量食用它们，它们就会创造出这种兴奋效应类型的场景。
So then I think we conceivably solve the problem.
所以我认为我们可以解决这个问题。
We could say, "Yes, plants are bad for us, but in small amounts they provide this hormetic response and they're good for us." So in the same way that too much heat is bad for us, too much cold is bad for us, can kill us, can kill neurons, but appropriately dosed in an intermittent challenge type of scenario, can be good for us.
我们可以说，“是的，植物对我们有害，但少量它们会提供这种毒物兴奋反应，对我们有好处。”因此，就像太多的热量对我们有害一样，太多的寒冷对我们也有害，可以杀死我们，可以杀死神经元，但在间歇性挑战类型的情况下适当剂量，可以对我们有好处。
Is that how I should think about plants and these compounds?
我应该这样看待植物和这些化合物吗？
Do you think of them as good for us, or as bad for us?
您认为它们对我们有利还是不利？
They're a very sharp blade and we want to use them potently.
它们是非常锋利的刀片，我们希望有效地使用它们。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
I actually think that it's almost impossible.
事实上我认为这几乎是不可能的。
I mean you'd have to eat nothing but the same plant all day, every day in large ...
我的意思是你必须整天只吃同一种植物，每天都吃大量的......
I mean the bioavailability of these compounds in the plants, they're attached to a food matrix; it's not like taking it in a supplement form as well.
我指的是这些化合物在植物中的生物利用度，它们附着在食物基质上；这与服用补充剂不同。
It's such that it's very difficult to make it toxic.
正是如此，使其有毒非常困难。
Now there are some cases; for example, there's some group in Africa somewhere that that's all they eat is cabbage, and there's a goitrogen in cabbage.
现在有一些情况；例如，在非洲某地有一些群体，他们只吃卷心菜，而卷心菜中含有致甲状腺肿素。
It's not sulforaphane, it's another compound.
它不是萝卜硫素，而是另一种化合物。
But that's all they eat every day, nothing but that.
但他们每天吃的就是这些，仅此而已。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They get goiter, the thick neck.
他们得了甲状腺肿，脖子粗。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
Yeah.
是的。
And they're iodine deficient on top of that.
除此之外，他们还缺乏碘。
So, I mean there are types of plants that are toxic in small quantities, right?
所以，我的意思是有些植物的数量很少就有毒，对吗？
I mean-
我的意思是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hemlock.
铁杉。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
Hemlock, exactly.
铁杉，确切地说。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Will kill you.
会杀了你。
Folks, don't play this game with hemlock.
各位，不要用铁杉玩这个游戏。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
But you're not going to get poisoned from eating your serving of broccoli at dinner.
但晚餐时吃西兰花不会中毒。
So, I mean, it depends on the plant.
所以，我的意思是，这取决于植物。
These generalizations, they're just not useful.
这些概括是没有用的。
And I think that a lot of people online in the blogosphere, they gravitate towards them because it's just easier and it's a lot more sensational.
我认为博客圈里的很多人都被它们所吸引，因为它更容易而且更耸人听闻。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I eat plants, meat and starches.
我吃植物、肉类和淀粉。
I'm one of those rare omnivores out there now.
我现在是那里罕见的杂食动物之一。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
I do too.
我也是。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I feel like it's rare to be an omnivore.
我觉得杂食动物很少见。
But I think once you step out of the social media, as you said, the blogosphere, most people, I would say 99% of people on the planet, are probably omnivores.
但我认为一旦你走出社交媒体，正如你所说的博客圈，大多数人，我想说地球上 99% 的人，可能都是杂食动物。
And someone will probably correct me, but I doubt the number falls below 98.
也许有人会纠正我，但我怀疑这个数字会低于 98。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
I think if you look at data ...
我想如果你看看数据...
And when we have carnivore data, I can't wait to see it.
当我们有了食肉动物数据时，我迫不及待地想看到它。
But right now it's a lot of, "Okay, well this is a lot of anecdotal evidence." And there's ...
但现在有很多，“好吧，这是很多轶事证据。”还有...
a lot of good starts with anecdotes.
很多好的事情都是从轶事开始的。
But people change a thousand things at once and they don't realize that, but they do.
但人们一下子改变了一千件事，他们没有意识到这一点，但他们确实意识到了。
And so anecdotal data is only so good, it's a starting point.
因此，轶事数据只是那么好，它只是一个起点。
And so we don't really know long-term what carnivore diets are going to do.
因此，从长远来看，我们并不真正知道肉食动物饮食会带来什么影响。
They may be beneficial short-term; they may be beneficial for reasons of elimination of other things, who knows?
它们可能是短期有益的；它们可能因消除其他事物而有益，谁知道呢？
Lots of possibilities.
有很多可能性。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
But I do think, with respect to plants, that there's so much evidence.
但我确实认为，关于植物，有很多证据。
For example, sulforaphane is one that I really like because there's just evidence that sulforaphane is a very powerful activator of the Nrf2 pathway.
例如，萝卜硫素是我非常喜欢的一种，因为有证据表明萝卜硫素是 Nrf2 途径的一种非常强大的激活剂。
And this is the pathway that regulates a lot of genes, and a lot of genes that are related to glutathione production.
这是调节很多基因的途径，以及很多与谷胱甘肽产生相关的基因。
Genes that are involved in detoxifying compounds that we're exposed to from our food, like heterocyclic amines.
参与解毒我们从食物中接触到的化合物（如杂环胺）的基因。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
In fact, there have been GWA studies.
事实上，已经有GWA研究。
So these are studies that are genome-wide associated studies.
所以这些研究是全基因组相关的研究。
For people listening that aren't familiar, people have a variety of versions of genes.
对于不熟悉的人来说，人们有多种版本的基因。
And we have a gene that's able to make heterocyclic amines, to basically detoxify it so it's not as harmful.
我们有一个基因能够产生杂环胺，基本上可以解毒，这样它就不那么有害了。
And people that don't have a certain version of that that's doing it well, are very prone to colon cancer and increased cancer risk.
而那些没有某种形式做得很好的人，很容易患结肠癌并增加患癌症的风险。
But if they eat a lot of broccoli and cruciferous vegetables, it negates that risk because they're getting sulforaphane, which activates a lot of the glutathione transferase and synthase genes.
但如果他们吃大量西兰花和十字花科蔬菜，就可以消除这种风险，因为他们会获得萝卜硫素，萝卜硫素会激活大量谷胱甘肽转移酶和合酶基因。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
So glutathione is a major antioxidant in our brain and in our vascular system, in our body basically.
因此，谷胱甘肽是我们大脑、血管系统以及我们身体中的主要抗氧化剂。
So there's evidence that eating things like compounds that are like sulforaphane or broccoli or broccoli spouts, which have up to a hundred times more sulforaphane than broccoli, are activating glutathione in the brain.
因此，有证据表明，食用萝卜硫素、西兰花或西兰花芽等化合物（其萝卜硫素含量比西兰花高出一百倍）会激活大脑中的谷胱甘肽。
There's human evidence of that.
有人类证据证明这一点。
I mean, that's amazing.
我的意思是，这太棒了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That is amazing.
这真是太棒了。
Can I just-?
我可以——吗？
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
And plasma ...
还有等离子...
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sorry to interrupt.
抱歉打扰。
I just want to make sure, so broccoli sprouts are different than broccoli, and you just told us that they're much richer in these compounds.
我只是想确定一下，西兰花芽与西兰花不同，你刚刚告诉我们，它们富含这些化合物。
So note to self, I should have broccoli sprouts, not just broccoli.
所以要提醒自己，我应该吃西兰花芽，而不仅仅是西兰花。
Can we cook the broccoli and still get these nutrients, or do we have to eat raw?
我们可以煮熟西兰花并仍然获得这些营养吗，还是必须生吃？
I confess, eating raw broccoli is really aversive to me.
我承认，吃生西兰花对我来说真的很反感。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
So the sulforaphane is formed from a compound called glucoraphanin, which is in the broccoli.
因此，萝卜硫素是由西兰花中一种名为萝卜硫苷的化合物形成的。
And the enzyme that converts it into sulforaphane is myrosinase, and it's heat sensitive.
将其转化为萝卜硫素的酶是黑芥子酶，它对热敏感。
So you do somewhat lower the sulforaphane levels when you cook the broccoli.
因此，在烹饪西兰花时，确实会稍微降低萝卜硫素的含量。
However, there was a study a few years back that showed adding one gram of mustard seed powder, ground mustard seed powder, which also contains the myrosinase enzyme, to your cooked broccoli increases the sulforaphane by fourfold.
然而，几年前的一项研究表明，在煮熟的西兰花中添加一克芥菜籽粉（磨碎的芥菜籽粉，其中也含有黑芥子酶），可使萝卜硫素增加四倍。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So, this is great because I confess, I like broccoli if it's cooked to the appropriate density.
所以，这很棒，因为我承认，如果西兰花煮到适当的密度，我喜欢它。
Not too mushy, but definitely not raw.
不太糊状，但绝对不是生的。
The idea of eating raw broccoli to me just sounds horrible, but I like the way mustard seed sounds.
对我来说，吃生西兰花的想法听起来很可怕，但我喜欢芥菜籽的声音。
So just a little bit of mustard seed powder added to the cooked broccoli can recover some of these compounds.
因此，只需在煮熟的西兰花中添加一点芥菜籽粉就可以恢复其中一些化合物。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
Yes.
是的。
So what I do is I will lightly steam my broccoli and then I add a little bit of my Kerrygold butter, and then I add some mustard seed powder on the top of that.
所以我要做的就是轻轻蒸一下西兰花，然后添加一点 Kerrygold 黄油，然后在上面添加一些芥末籽粉。
And it's got a little kick, it's just a little spice.
它有一点刺激，只是一点香料。
And if you don't taste that, it's expired.
如果你没有尝到它的味道，它就过期了。
It should have a little kick.
它应该有一点点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And because I know people will want to know, how often and how much?
因为我知道人们会想知道，多久一次，多少？
Are you eating this every day or most days of the week?
你是每天都吃这个还是一周的大部分时间都吃这个？
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
Well I had shifted to supplementation with sulforaphane.
好吧，我已经转向补充萝卜硫素。
I'm admitting right now that I've been terrible about it the past, I don't know, six months or so.
我现在承认，过去六个月左右我对此感到很糟糕，我不知道。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The supplementation or the broccoli?
补充剂还是西兰花？
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
Yes, the supplementation.
是的，补充。
And so, there's another way to get ...
所以，还有另一种方法可以得到......
There's another compound, and it's actually called moringa.
还有另一种化合物，它实际上叫做辣木。
And Dr. Jed Fahey, who's really the expert on sulforaphane, he's a good friend of mine, he's been on the podcast a couple of times.
Jed Fahey 博士，他确实是萝卜硫素方面的专家，他是我的好朋友，他参加过几次播客。
He basically thinks, and has done a lot of research on moringa as well, that it's like a cousin and it activates the Nrf2 pathway similarly to sulforaphane.
他基本上认为，并且也对辣木进行了大量研究，它就像一个表亲，它与萝卜硫素类似，可以激活 Nrf2 通路。
And so I've been buying this Kuli Kuli moringa powder.
所以我一直在买这种 Kuli Kuli 辣木粉。
I don't have any affiliation with them.
我和他们没有任何关系。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Kuli Kuli is a brand.
库里库里是一个品牌。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
Kuli Kuli is the brand.
库里库里是这个品牌。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That you have no affiliation to.
与你没有任何隶属关系。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
I have no affiliation.
我没有任何隶属关系。
But Jed Fahey has researched it, like that specific brand.
但杰德·费伊（Jed Fahey）对此进行了研究，就像那个特定品牌一样。
And so, it's legit.
所以，这是合法的。
It's science-backed in terms of actually containing moringa and activating Nrf2.
它实际上含有辣木并激活 Nrf2，这是有科学依据的。
And I add it to my smoothies, so that's what I've been doing.
我把它添加到我的冰沙中，这就是我一直在做的事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What are some dose ranges?
一些剂量范围是多少？
So of course we give the usual recommendations that people should talk to their physician, et cetera, et cetera.
因此，我们当然会给出通常的建议，即人们应该与他们的医生交谈，等等。
But if people are going to, what do you take?
但如果人们要这么做，你会采取什么？
Let's take-
让我们来——
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
A big heaping tablespoon-
一大勺——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
the David Sinclairian approach, where he'll talk about what he does as a way to deal with this.
大卫·辛克莱里安（David Sinclairian）的方法，他将谈论他采取了什么方法来解决这个问题。
And of course everybody's different and, in all seriousness, anytime you add or delete something from your consumption, should consult some trusted healthcare professional, trusted by you.
当然，每个人都是不同的，严肃地说，每当您在消费中添加或删除某些东西时，都应该咨询一些值得您信赖的医疗保健专业人士。
What do you recall the dosage is?
您还记得剂量是多少吗？
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
I do a big, heaping tablespoon.
我做了一大汤匙。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So, Kuli Kuli moringa.
所以，Kuli Kuli 辣木。
It sounds like a song.
听起来像一首歌。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
It's with a K.
是带K的。
I know, it does.
我知道，确实如此。
But for people also listening who are like, "Well why would I do that?" I mentioned the glutathione in the brain, I mentioned it in plasma, it's been shown to lower DNA damage in people and white blood cells.
但对于那些也在听的人来说，“那我为什么要这么做呢？”我提到了大脑中的谷胱甘肽，我提到了血浆中的谷胱甘肽，它已被证明可以降低人和白细胞中的 DNA 损伤。
It's also been shown, there's been several different studies in China ...
它还表明，中国进行了几项不同的研究......
In China there's a lot of air pollution.
在中国，空气污染严重。
And I mentioned that it's a very powerful activator of Nrf2.
我提到它是一种非常强大的 Nrf2 激活剂。
And I know you're familiar with Nrf2, but Nrf2 is like your transcription factor.
我知道您熟悉 Nrf2，但 Nrf2 就像您的转录因子。
It is binding to a little specific sequence in a variety of different genes and it's turning them on, or in some cases turning them off.
它与各种不同基因中的一点特定序列结合，并打开它们，或者在某些情况下关闭它们。
It's regulating what's being activated or what's not being activated, or being turned off.
它调节什么被激活，什么没有被激活，或者被关闭。
And some of the genes are basically these detoxifying pathways.
有些基因基本上就是这些解毒途径。
We talked a little bit about the glutathione, but there's also ones that are involved in airborne carcinogens like benzene.
我们讨论了一些谷胱甘肽，但也有一些谷胱甘肽与空气中的致癌物质（如苯）有关。
So benzene is found in air pollution, cigarette smoke.
因此，苯存在于空气污染、香烟烟雾中。
If you're smoking cigarettes still, please try to quit.
如果您仍在吸烟，请尝试戒烟。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, you're mutating your DNA.
是的，你正在改变你的DNA。
To say nothing of the lung cancer, you're mutating your DNA.
更不用说肺癌了，你的 DNA 正在发生突变。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
And heart disease risk, heart disease risk.
还有心脏病风险，心脏病风险。
But anyways, this has been repeated in more than one study, that literally after 24 hours of taking ...
但无论如何，不止一项研究重复了这一点，实际上在服用 24 小时后……
I can't remember off the top of my head what the dose of sulforaphane from broccoli sprouts extract was.
我一时记不起西兰花芽提取物中萝卜硫素的剂量是多少。
Not the seed, it was the sprouts.
不是种子，是豆芽。
Anyways, they started excreting like 60% benzene and acrolein.
不管怎样，他们开始排出60%的苯和丙烯醛。
I mean, that's something that we get in cooked food.
我的意思是，这是我们从熟食中得到的东西。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's coming out in their urine?
是从尿液中流出来的吗？
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
Coming out in their urine.
从他们的尿液中出来。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well I'm not a smoker and I have to be honest, it's rare that I hear of a supplement for the first time because I've been deep diving on supplements since I was in my teens.
好吧，我不是吸烟者，我必须说实话，我很少第一次听说补充剂，因为我从十几岁起就一直在深入研究补充剂。
This is fascinating and it brings it back to this question that we had before, and I appreciate that you've answered it very clearly.
这很有趣，它让我们回到了我们之前提出的这个问题，我很感激你已经非常清楚地回答了这个问题。
Plants have compounds that are good for us.
植物含有对我们有益的化合物。
They're not just stressing us, they're activating pathways that are reparative.
它们不仅给我们带来压力，还激活了修复途径。
That's what I'm taking away from everything you're telling me.
这就是我从你告诉我的一切中得到的。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
And that our bodies were supposed to be getting that stress to have those pathways activated.
我们的身体应该受到压力来激活这些通路。
I mean, this is conserved among different animals.
我的意思是，这在不同的动物中是保守的。
This is something that is supposed to happen.
这是应该发生的事情。
And in our modern day world, we don't have to eat plants, we don't have to move anywhere or exercise.
在我们的现代世界中，我们不必吃植物，我们不必去任何地方移动或锻炼。
We don't have to go through periods of not eating food because we can have it at our fingertips at any second.
我们不必经历不吃食物的时期，因为我们可以随时获取食物。
So, I mean, we've got this conundrum of we're never activating these stress response pathways that we're supposed to activate.
所以，我的意思是，我们遇到了这样一个难题：我们从来没有激活我们应该激活的这些压力反应途径。
We're supposed to.
我们应该这样做。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I find that fascinating.
我觉得这很有趣。
And again, drawing a parallel to the nervous system.
再次与神经系统进行比较。
So what I'm hearing you say is that historically, we would have to go through some stress, confront cold or confront heat or confront effort or hunger, have to exercise, essentially, in order to obtain these compounds.
所以我听到你说的是，从历史上看，我们必须经历一些压力，面对寒冷或面对炎热或面对努力或饥饿，必须锻炼，本质上，为了获得这些化合物。
And then, those compounds are reparative.
然后，这些化合物是修复性的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, I feel that resembles the dopamine pathway.
是的，我觉得这类似于多巴胺通路。
I always say there's nothing wrong with dopamine.
我总是说多巴胺没有什么问题。
People think about dopamine hits as bad or dopamine as bad.
人们认为多巴胺的影响一样糟糕，或多巴胺一样糟糕。
There's absolutely nothing wrong with dopamine.
多巴胺绝对没有问题。
The problem is dopamine, especially high levels of dopamine, released without the need for effort to access that dopamine, is problematic.
问题是多巴胺，尤其是高水平的多巴胺，如果不需要努力获取多巴胺就释放出来，这是有问题的。
So a line of cocaine gives you a ton of dopamine with no effort except to ingest the drug.
因此，一滴可卡因可以让你产生大量的多巴胺，除了摄入药物之外，不需要任何努力。
Whereas working for four years or more to get your degree will release a lot of dopamine, and a lot of cortisol along the way, as we know, and it's considered a healthy accomplishment in most cases.
然而，正如我们所知，为了获得学位而工作四年或更长时间会释放大量多巴胺和皮质醇，并且在大多数情况下这被认为是健康的成就。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We're approaching the spring and there'll be a lot of graduations, weddings are coming up now that the pandemic is kind of hopefully slowing, and there'll be a lot of dopamine.
我们即将迎来春天，将会有很多毕业典礼，婚礼即将到来，因为疫情有望放缓，并且会有大量的多巴胺。
High levels of dopamine are great, but only after the effort of having done something in order to access it.
高水平的多巴胺固然很好，但只有在付出努力才能获得它之后。
And so that's what I'm taking away from what you're saying is that we need to go through different types of intermittent challenge and we are rewarded with particular compounds that are reparative, both for the challenge but then make us stronger.
所以这就是我从你的话中得出的结论是，我们需要经历不同类型的间歇性挑战，并且我们会得到具有修复作用的特定化合物的奖励，既可以应对挑战，又可以使我们变得更强大。
Hormesis really is, it seems, a case of what doesn't kill us makes us stronger.
毒物兴奋效应似乎确实证明了杀不死我们的东西会使我们变得更强大。
So, you mentioned-
所以，你提到——
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
Can I add to that one thing you just said?
我可以补充一下你刚才说的一件事吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Please.
请。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
Because this has been shown with, for example, sulforaphane in animal studies.
因为动物研究中的萝卜硫素等已经证明了这一点。
You precondition, give the animal sulforaphane and then you expose them to hypoxia or some kind of ischemic stroke condition, whatever they do to induce that, and the sulforaphane, it basically protects that.
你预先给动物喂食萝卜硫素，然后让它们暴露在缺氧或某种缺血性中风条件下，无论他们采取什么措施来诱导这种情况，而萝卜硫素，它基本上可以保护这种情况。
Like, their precondition and their stress response pathways are primed.
就像，他们的先决条件和压力反应途径已经准备好了。
And so when they're then exposed to the ischemic stroke, their outcomes are so much better, so much better, than the animals that didn't get the sulforaphane 48 hours before, whatever it was.
因此，当它们遭受缺血性中风时，它们的结果比 48 小时前没有摄入萝卜硫素的动物（无论是什么）好得多。
And this has been shown in multiple animal studies with sulforaphane, specifically in the brain.
多项萝卜硫素动物研究（特别是大脑研究）已经证明了这一点。
I know Dr. Mark Mattson; he's often thought of as the intermittent fasting king, but he's a neuroscientist and he did publish some work and talks about sulforaphane as well.
我认识马克·马特森博士；他经常被认为是间歇性禁食之王，但他是一位神经科学家，他确实发表了一些作品并谈论了萝卜硫素。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm really glad you brought that example up, because many of the questions I get on social media and elsewhere are about traumatic brain injury, and TBI is just one example.
我真的很高兴你提到这个例子，因为我在社交媒体和其他地方收到的许多问题都与创伤性脑损伤有关，TBI 只是一个例子。
And people always think, "Oh, sports.
人们总是想，“哦，运动。
It's football." Whenever you say TBI, people always think football.
这是足球。”每当提到 TBI，人们总会想到足球。
And I just want to take a moment to editorialize, 90% or more of traumatic brain injury is construction work, at-home accidents ...
我只是想花点时间进行社论，90% 或更多的脑外伤是建筑工作、家庭事故……
Football players, hockey players, martial artists are a tiny fraction of the people who have TBI and concussion of various kinds.
足球运动员、曲棍球运动员、武术家只是患有创伤性脑损伤和各种脑震荡的人中的一小部分。
It just so happens that within those communities, many of them, 75% or more, experience those.
碰巧的是，在这些社区中，他们中的许多人（75% 或更多）都经历过这些。
So it's salient within those communities, but concussion is prominent.
因此，它在这些社区中很突出，但脑震荡也很突出。
People are always asking, "What can I do in order to offset brain injury?
人们总是问：“我能做什么来抵消脑损伤？
I had a concussion two years ago, what can I do?" And it's been a tough question because we really don't have anything for them.
我两年前得过脑震荡，我该怎么办？”这是一个很难回答的问题，因为我们真的没有任何东西可以给他们。
I mean you tell them sleep well, eat well, exercise.
我的意思是你告诉他们睡得好，吃得好，锻炼身体。
But it sounds like some of these reparative pathways either should be explored in the context of brain injury or, I'm guessing are being explored in the context of brain injury.
但听起来其中一些修复途径要么应该在脑损伤的背景下进行探索，要么我猜正在脑损伤的背景下进行探索。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
Yeah.
是的。
So a couple of things there.
有几件事。
One is that, I mean, traumatic brain injury, it's terrible, but it's so interesting because it's also literal real-time brain aging.
一是，我的意思是，创伤性脑损伤，这很可怕，但它很有趣，因为它也是字面上的实时大脑老化。
You're able to accelerate it and understand.
你能够加速它并理解它。
So when I think of traumatic brain injury, I think of so much overlap between Alzheimer's disease and dementia and these neurodegenerative diseases because there are a lot of similarities there.
因此，当我想到创伤性脑损伤时，我会想到阿尔茨海默氏病和痴呆症以及这些神经退行性疾病之间有很多重叠，因为它们有很多相似之处。
And I do think there's been some animal research with TBI and sulforaphane, mostly preconditioning rather than treatment.
我确实认为已经有一些关于 TBI 和萝卜硫素的动物研究，主要是预处理而不是治疗。
So again, it's like, well if you want a healthy lifestyle thing and you're a construction worker or you're, fill in the blank, that's going to ...
再说一遍，如果你想要健康的生活方式，并且你是一名建筑工人，或者你是，填空，那就......
I mean anyone that drives a car, you're at risk to some degree, right?
我的意思是任何开车的人都面临着一定程度的风险，对吧？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or bicycle.
或者自行车。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
Bicycle, yeah.
自行车，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Around Stanford, I would say, people demonize motorcycles, people demonize a lot of things.
我想说，在斯坦福大学，人们妖魔化摩托车，人们妖魔化很多东西。
But moving fast through space on a small object next to a 3,000-pound vehicle.
但可以在 3,000 磅重的车辆旁边的一个小物体上快速穿越太空。
I mean, we have a number of friends that have died.
我的意思是，我们有很多朋友去世了。
We know a number of people with traumatic brain injury.
我们认识许多患有脑外伤的人。
I'm not against cycling or cyclists, but it's a risky sport by any stretch.
我并不反对骑自行车或骑自行车的人，但无论如何，这都是一项危险的运动。
So in taking things like moringa or eating my broccoli sprouts, maybe cooking them a little less than I'm currently cooking them, putting on the mustard seed.
因此，在吃辣木之类的东西或吃我的西兰花芽时，也许比我现在煮的少一点，放上芥菜籽。
Is there evidence that ...
有证据表明...
Well first of all, Nrf2 is expressed in neurons, so those cells should be protected.
首先，Nrf2 在神经元中表达，因此这些细胞应该受到保护。
Are there other cells of the body that could possibly gain protection from these pathways?
身体的其他细胞是否有可能获得这些途径的保护？
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
Well, lungs for one, but just even in plasma cells.
嗯，其中之一是肺，但即使是在浆细胞中也是如此。
I mean, Nrf2 is pretty ubiquitously expressed.
我的意思是，Nrf2 的表达非常普遍。
Liver.
肝。
There's so many animal studies that have looked at all those things.
有很多动物研究已经研究了所有这些事情。
I try to gravitate towards human ones because it's a lot more relevant.
我尝试倾向于人类，因为它更相关。
But I think overall, like I mentioned, DNA damage lower, 24 or 34% lower in human blood cells after broccoli sprout powder supplementation.
但我认为总体而言，就像我提到的，补充西兰花芽粉后，人类血细胞的 DNA 损伤降低了 24% 或 34%。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wow.
哇。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
And I made a video on this years ago, 2016 maybe, and I think I have the references on there to exact amounts.
我几年前（也许是 2016 年）制作了一个关于这一点的视频，我想我在那里有确切数量的参考资料。
I can't remember.
我不记得了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We can link to the video.
我们可以链接到视频。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
It's kind of an old video, it was 2016.
有点老了，2016年的视频了。
But I also had Jed on the podcast and he did talk about this.
但我的播客上也有杰德，他确实谈到了这一点。
But it's also been shown in randomized controlled trials to help treat autism and autistic symptoms.
但随机对照试验也显示它有助于治疗自闭症和自闭症症状。
And yet again, it's doing interesting things in the brain, and I think it does have something to do with the oxidative stress and the glutathione, which would be relevant for TBI treatment.
再一次，它在大脑中做了有趣的事情，我认为它确实与氧化应激和谷胱甘肽有关，这与 TBI 治疗有关。
It hasn't been shown empirically that that helps with treatment, but I do think someone could do that study.
尚未有经验表明这有助于治疗，但我确实认为有人可以进行这项研究。
I think that it should be done, honestly, because it's a low hanging fruit.
老实说，我认为应该这样做，因为这是一个容易实现的目标。
I mean, if there's any impact, and there is at least one preliminary study that glutathione is increased in the brain after humans are basically taking sulforaphane.
我的意思是，如果有任何影响的话，至少有一项初步研究表明，在人类基本上服用萝卜硫素后，大脑中的谷胱甘肽会增加。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Which is really, for people listening, that's so important because a number of compounds that people take in supplement form don't cross the blood-brain barrier, or they get metabolized in ways that what's listed on the bottle almost becomes irrelevant for what your cells actually experience.
对于听的人来说，这确实非常重要，因为人们以补充剂形式服用的许多化合物不会穿过血脑屏障，或者它们的代谢方式几乎与瓶子上列出的内容与您的细胞实际经历的无关。
So, that's very reassuring.
所以，这非常让人放心。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We will get back to heat and cold and this theme that I tried to serve us, but I just find this too interesting to diverge at this point from these themes.
我们将回到热和冷以及我试图为我们服务的这个主题，但我只是发现这太有趣了，无法在这一点上偏离这些主题。
So what other compounds or micronutrients do you place in the top tier of useful, interesting, there are animal studies, maybe there are hopefully also some human studies?
那么，您将哪些其他化合物或微量营养素置于有用、有趣的顶层，有动物研究，也许还有一些人类研究？
We've talked about a few.
我们已经讨论过一些。
I know you've talked a lot about omega-3 fatty acids.
我知道您已经谈论了很多关于 omega-3 脂肪酸的问题。
So if you had to do your kind of top three, your superstars of nutrients for the brain and body.
因此，如果您必须做到前三名，那么您的大脑和身体营养超级明星。
Sounds like we've got one set, what would you put in alongside them?
听起来我们有一套，你会在它们旁边放什么？
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
Omega-3, the marine omega-3 fatty acids.
Omega-3，海洋 Omega-3 脂肪酸。
So these are found in marine types of animals.
所以这些是在海洋动物中发现的。
Fish, cold water fish, fatty fish.
鱼，冷水鱼，多脂鱼。
So there's three fatty acids.
所以有三种脂肪酸。
There's one from a plant and that's often referred to as ALA, people call it, short for alpha-linolenic acid.
有一种来自植物，通常被称为 ALA，人们称之为 α-亚麻酸的缩写。
And then there's eicosapentaenoic acid, or EPA, and docosahexaenoic acid, which is DHA.
然后是二十碳五烯酸（EPA）和二十二碳六烯酸（DHA）。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm amazed you can pronounce two of the most difficult words to pronounce and spell right next to ophthalmology, which if you can spell it ...
我很惊讶你能说出“眼科”旁边最难发音和拼写的两个单词，如果你能拼写的话......
I know people who have appointments in ophthalmology departments that don't know how to spell ophthalmology.
我认识一些在眼科就诊的人，他们不知道如何拼写“眼科”。
Little secret, there's an extra P in there.
小秘密，里面多了一个P。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So the ALA, I'm not going to attempt to pronounce it because your pronunciation was perfect of both of these two compounds, and you said are in marine sources.
所以 ALA，我不会尝试发音，因为你的发音对这两种化合物都很完美，而且你说它们来自海洋来源。
So fish, so sardines, cod, this sort of thing, but what about krill?
鱼、沙丁鱼、鳕鱼等等，那么磷虾呢？
I've seen krill oil and there was a few years back, people were saying krill is a better source for omega-3s than is fish oil.
我见过磷虾油，几年前，人们说磷虾是比鱼油更好的 omega-3 来源。
I took some krill oil capsules, made me itch all over, so I stopped.
我吃了一些磷虾油胶囊，觉得浑身痒，就停了。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
Do you have a shellfish allergy?
您对贝类过敏吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, I don't think so.
不，我不这么认为。
I don't think so.
我不这么认为。
I'm not a big fan of shellfish, but I'll have oysters every now and again, or shrimp or something and feel fine.
我不太喜欢贝类，但偶尔吃点牡蛎，或者虾什么的，感觉还不错。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
Yeah, we can talk about sources.
是的，我们可以谈谈来源。
So, krill is a source mostly of a type of DHA and EPA that's in phospholipid form.
因此，磷虾主要是磷脂形式的 DHA 和 EPA 的来源。
So it's a phosphatidylcholine omega-3 fatty acid, and that's different than most of the ...
所以它是一种磷脂酰胆碱 omega-3 脂肪酸，这与大多数脂肪酸不同......
Well if we're talking about fish oil supplements, that's a different story.
好吧，如果我们谈论的是鱼油补充剂，那就是另一回事了。
But if you're talking about comparing fish to eating krill, like we're talking about the foods-
但如果你正在谈论将鱼与吃磷虾进行比较，就像我们正在谈论食物一样-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, I would never eat krill.
哦，我永远不会吃磷虾。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
Okay.
好的。
Are we talking about the supplements?
我们在谈论补充剂吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yes, I apologize.
是的，我道歉。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
Okay.
好的。
So, fish oil supplements.
所以，补充鱼油。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, krill supplement versus fish oil supplement.
是的，磷虾补充剂与鱼油补充剂。
And if it fits in the conversation, talking about great sources of omega-3s in their whole form.
如果适合的话，谈论完整形式的 omega-3 的重要来源。
I have a bad feeling you're going to tell me sardines.
我有一种不好的预感，你会告诉我沙丁鱼。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
Sardines are, yeah, they're awesome.
沙丁鱼，是的，它们很棒。
Anyways, except for the-
无论如何，除了——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Except for the taste.
除了味道。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
And for the potential contaminants.
以及潜在的污染物。
Mercury, I think, was one.
我认为水星就是其中之一。
No. Yeah, it was Mercury.
不，是的，是水星。
And Joe was telling me that he used to eat ...
乔告诉我他曾经吃过......
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
Joe was telling me about, he used to eat ...
乔告诉我，他过去常吃...
Joe Rogan was telling me that he used to eat sardines every day.
乔·罗根告诉我，他以前每天都吃沙丁鱼。
Then he had really high mercury levels, and I was really shocked because sardines are low in the fish groups.
然后他的汞含量非常高，我真的很震惊，因为沙丁鱼在鱼类中的含量很低。
The higher up you get, like swordfish and sharks, really high mercury because they're eating all the other fish.
越高的鱼，比如旗鱼和鲨鱼，汞含量就越高，因为它们吃掉所有其他鱼。
Right?
正确的？
But I think some brands, and if you look at ConsumerLab, ConsumerLab, it's like a third-party site that I'm not affiliated with, but I'll use them because they do a lot of analysis of different foods and supplements.
但我认为有些品牌，如果你看看 ConsumerLab，ConsumerLab，它就像我不隶属于的第三方网站，但我会使用它们，因为他们对不同的食品和补充剂进行了大量分析。
You can look at some of their sardines and they have a list of ones that are pretty decent.
你可以看看他们的一些沙丁鱼，他们有一份相当不错的沙丁鱼清单。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
But anyways, back to your question about fish oil supplements versus krill oil supplements.
但无论如何，回到你关于鱼油补充剂与磷虾油补充剂的问题。
So, one of the major differences is that fish oil supplements, if you get a high-quality one, it's in a triglyceride form.
因此，主要区别之一是鱼油补充剂，如果您获得高质量的鱼油补充剂，它是甘油三酯的形式。
You've got a glycerol backbone with three fatty acids and that's attached.
你有一个带有三个脂肪酸的甘油主链，它是附加的。
Those are either DHA or the EPA.
这些是 DHA 或 EPA。
Or if you have a lower-quality fish oil supplement, then you have what's called ethyl ester form.
或者，如果您使用的是质量较低的鱼油补充剂，那么您就有所谓的乙酯形式。
Typically, the reason for that, when fish oil is purified, it's run through this column with alcohol or something.
通常，其原因是，当鱼油被纯化时，它会与酒精或其他物质一起通过该柱。
They cleave it off the glycerol backbone, and then it's just easier to leave it like that than re-esterifying it, which costs more money.
他们将其从甘油主链上切下来，然后就这样保留它比重新酯化更容易，后者需要花费更多的钱。
So, you can get it in ethyl ester form, which isn't as bioavailable.
因此，您可以以乙酯形式获得它，但这种形式的生物利用度较低。
And in fact if you don't take it with food, you're going to be in trouble.
事实上，如果你不将它与食物一起服用，你就会有麻烦。
You're not going to absorb much of it at all.
你根本不会吸收太多。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Would you see this on the packaging?
你会在包装上看到这个吗？
Is it going to say it's in this ethyl form?
它会说它是乙基形式吗？
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
Some official brands will put it on their website, perhaps on their packaging, but most of the time you'll have to dig for it on the website and/or call them.
一些官方品牌会把它放在他们的网站上，也许在他们的包装上，但大多数时候你必须在网站上挖掘它和/或打电话给他们。
But I think for the most part, ones that are higher end will market it like triglyceride form.
但我认为在大多数情况下，高端产品会像甘油三酯形式一样推销它。
It's not that ethyl ester is bad.
这并不是说乙酯不好。
It just means take it with food.
这只是意味着与食物一起服用。
So, one of the major prescription omega-3s out there is, both of them actually, Lovaza, which is a mixture of DHA and EPA, as well as Vascepa, which is a highly purified EPA, these are both prescribed by physicians to patients with hypertriglyceridemia.
因此，目前主要的 omega-3 处方之一是 Lovaza（DHA 和 EPA 的混合物）以及 Vascepa（高度纯化的 EPA），这两种药物都是医生为高甘油三酯血症患者开出的处方。
So, high triglycerides, among other things, I think, maybe dysregulation of lipids as well, but-
所以，高甘油三酯，除其他外，我认为，可能也是脂质调节失调，但是-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This is amazing for people.
这对人们来说是令人惊奇的。
These are prescription drugs that are essentially very high potency, purified omega-3s.
这些处方药本质上是非常高效的纯化 omega-3。
But they're given to people for lipid issues.
但它们是为解决血脂问题的人提供的。
So, this is the treatment of issues with fat metabolism by giving people fat.
所以，这就是通过给人们提供脂肪来治疗脂肪代谢问题。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Really, I just want to push home, again, I'm not carnivore, keto or anything.
真的，我只是想再次强调，我不是肉食动物，酮或任何东西。
I'm an omnivore.
我是杂食动物。
But to just push home that one thing that's so wonderful that you've done over the years that you continue to do is to move away from these very broad-sweeping statements about fat is bad.
但是，仅仅让你明白多年来你一直在做的一件非常美妙的事情就是放弃这些关于脂肪的非常广泛的陈述是不好的。
Here's a case where we're saying fat is not only good.
这是一个例子，我们说脂肪不仅有好处。
It can be used to combat issues with fat metabolism.
它可用于解决脂肪代谢问题。
Then, fats are not just one thing.
那么，脂肪不仅仅是一回事。
They're many things.
它们有很多东西。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Anyway, I just want put a little highlighter and a point of appreciation there and make sure that people are sensitized to the fact that if you hear that fat is bad, you have to ask what kind of fat.
不管怎样，我只是想在那里写一点荧光笔和一个赞赏点，并确保人们认识到这样一个事实：如果你听说脂肪不好，你必须问是什么样的脂肪。
And here we're talking about these omega-3s.
我们在这里谈论的是这些 omega-3。
Okay.
好的。
The triglyceride form can be taken with or without food, and there's prescription forms.
甘油三酯形式可以与食物一起服用或单独服用，并且有处方形式。
I don't know if I can get a hold of the prescription form unless-
我不知道我能否拿到处方表，除非——
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
You have high triglycerides.
您的甘油三酯水平较高。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or I have a friend with high triglycerides.
或者我有一个甘油三酯高的朋友。
No. It's illegal, folks.
不，这是非法的，伙计们。
Don't share prescription drugs.
不要共用处方药。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
Or you talk to your doctor and you say, I'm already taking this from ...
或者你和你的医生谈谈，你说，我已经从......
I don't know how it works.
我不知道它是如何工作的。
Anyways.
无论如何。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What's the dosage that you recommend people get, one way or another?
您建议人们服用的剂量是多少？
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
All right.
好吧。
Okay.
好的。
The dosage that physicians prescribed for high triglycerides, for example, is four grams a day.
例如，医生针对高甘油三酯开出的剂量是每天四克。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Four grams of EPA?
四克EPA？
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
Yes, of the Vascepa.
是的，瓦西帕。
I think Lovaza is also prescribed at four grams a day.
我认为 Lovaza 的处方剂量也是每天四克。
You can get either of those from your physician.
您可以从您的医生那里获得其中任何一种。
My father-in-law just got one of them prescribing it to use.
我的岳父刚刚给他们开了其中一张处方来使用。
We were buying our own omega-3 for years and years.
多年来我们一直在购买自己的 omega-3。
It's like, hey, you can actually get this and health insurance can cover it.
就像，嘿，你实际上可以得到这个，并且健康保险可以承保。
And it's really purified form, but you have to take it with food.
它确实是纯化的形式，但你必须与食物一起服用。
That was the bottom line.
这是底线。
I've totally gone on tangents, but you're asking more interesting questions, anyway.
我已经完全离题了，但无论如何，你问的是更有趣的问题。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But normally I ask about mechanism and then I talk about protocols.
但通常我会先询问机制，然后再谈论协议。
But in the-
但在——
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
Or the why.
或者说为什么。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or the why.
或者说为什么。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
We haven't gotten there yet.
我们还没有到达那里。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We definitely will get there, but I think a number of people nowadays are just really excited about what they can do for their health.
我们肯定会实现这一目标，但我认为现在有很多人对他们能为自己的健康所做的事情感到非常兴奋。
So, here we're just raising the importance of omega-3s, and then we'll definitely get to the why and the underlying mechanism.
所以，在这里我们只是提高 omega-3 的重要性，然后我们一定会了解原因和根本机制。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
Yeah, I think four grams is ...
是的，我认为四克是......
in fact, Bill Harris, Dr. Bill Harris, he's just one of the pioneers on omega fatty acid research.
事实上，比尔·哈里斯，比尔·哈里斯博士，他只是欧米伽脂肪酸研究的先驱之一。
He was on our podcast last August.
去年八月他出现在我们的播客上。
He was saying the reason FDA chose that was literally just because how much they could get people to take.
他说 FDA 选择这一点的原因实际上只是因为他们可以让人们服用多少。
It wasn't an upper end, like, this is ...
这不是高端，就像，这是......
anything above that is unsafe.
任何高于这个值的东西都是不安全的。
That wasn't the case.
事实并非如此。
I mean it was just purely cost and compliance.
我的意思是这纯粹是成本和合规性。
So, what they can get into a pill, the amount they can get, and how many pills they can get people to take.
那么，他们可以在药丸中加入什么，可以服用多少，以及可以让人们服用多少药丸。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm smiling because our good friend Satchin Panda at the Salk Institute, who's done a lot of important work on intermittent fasting and other incredible work on circadian rhythms, et cetera, when I was talking to him in preparation for an episode on intermittent fasting, I said, why the eight-hour feeding window.
我微笑是因为我们在索尔克研究所的好朋友 Satchin Panda，他在间歇性禁食方面做了很多重要的工作，在昼夜节律方面也做了很多令人难以置信的工作，等等，当我和他谈话准备间歇性禁食的一集时，我说，为什么要设置八小时的进食窗口。
And he said, "Well, the graduate student who ran those studies had a partner ..." I think it was a girlfriend, as I recall, hope I didn't get that backward.
他说，“嗯，负责这些研究的研究生有一个合作伙伴……”我记得那是一个女朋友，希望我没有搞错。
And the partner said, "Listen, you can be in lab 10 hours a day, but you can't be in lab 14 hours a day if you want this relationship to work."
合作伙伴说：“听着，你可以每天在实验室呆 10 个小时，但如果你想让这种关系发挥作用，你就不能每天在实验室呆 14 小时。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It was eight hours of feeding window plus some measurements, and time to walk into the lab, park the car, et cetera.
这是八个小时的喂食窗口加上一些测量，以及走进实验室、停车等的时间。
So, the eight-hour feeding window that everyone holds so holy was actually just born out of this relationship between these two graduate students.
所以，被大家视为神圣的八小时喂食窗口，其实就是在这两个研究生之间的关系中诞生的。
Had they been single ...
如果他们单身的话...
I was single all through graduate school, or most of it, anyway, and I lived in the lab, so if it had been me, we'd all be intermittent fasting would mean eating 14 hours a day.
我在读研究生期间一直单身，或者说大部分时间都是单身，而且我住在实验室里，所以如果是我的话，我们都会间歇性禁食，这意味着每天要吃 14 个小时。
That was a joke.
那是个笑话。
Not a good one.
不是一个好人。
But I just want to make clear I'm joking.
但我只是想澄清我是在开玩笑。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But the point that you're making is a really good one, that the four gram amount is not a threshold based on anything, except the threshold of people's willingness to actually take the stuff.
但你提出的观点非常好，四克的数量并不是基于任何东西的阈值，除了人们愿意实际服用这些东西的阈值。
I think that's important for people to hear because so often we hear the eight-hour feeding window, four grams of EPA, 150 minutes of cardio.
我认为这对人们来说很重要，因为我们经常听到八小时的喂养时间、四克 EPA、150 分钟的有氧运动。
And it's really a question of what you can reasonably do in a study.
这实际上是一个你在研究中可以合理做些什么的问题。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
I take four grams a day.
我每天服用四克。
I take two in the morning, two grams in the morning, and I take two grams in the evening.
我早上吃两颗，早上两克，晚上两克。
I take my EPA in the morning and I take my DHA in the evening.
我早上服用 EPA，晚上服用 DHA。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You split them?
你把他们分开了？
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
I do.
我愿意。
I don't know if ...
我不知道是否...
I don't think it's necessary.
我认为没有必要。
Not necessarily.
未必。
I just happen to buy, I happen to get a certain fish oil supplement that separates them.
我只是碰巧买了，我碰巧得到了某种鱼油补充剂，可以将它们分开。
Lovaza, Lovaza is a great one and it's all-in-one and it's easier.
Lovaza，Lovaza 是一款很棒的产品，它是一体化的，而且更容易。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What if someone doesn't have a prescription?
如果有人没有处方怎么办？
So, I take over-the-counter fish oil.
所以，我服用非处方鱼油。
I know I feel better because I've done the experiment going on and off.
我知道我感觉好多了，因为我已经断断续续地做了实验。
I take them mainly for ...
我拿它们主要是为了...
I don't have depression, but my mood is better, my joints feel better.
我没有抑郁症，但我的心情更好了，我的关节感觉更好了。
I just feel better.
我只是感觉好多了。
And I like to think that my platelets are slipperier and they're cruising through any little obstructions in my veins or arteries.
我喜欢认为我的血小板更滑，它们可以穿过我静脉或动脉中的任何小障碍物。
That's the image I have in my head, but I don't have any data to support that part.
这就是我脑海中的图像，但我没有任何数据来支持该部分。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
Yeah.
是的。
If you're asking for where do people get these fish oil supplements?
如果您想知道人们从哪里获得这些鱼油补充剂？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, let's say, I look at the bottle and it says two grams per serving, but then I look and it's 750 milligrams of EPA, right?
好吧，比方说，我看了一下瓶子，上面写着每份 2 克，但后来我一看，它含有 750 毫克 EPA，对吧？
Or 1,000 milligrams of EPA.
或 1,000 毫克 EPA。
Let's say half of it is EPA.
假设其中一半是 EPA。
Then, do I want to hit a threshold of EPA or a threshold of what's listed on the bottle, on the front of the bottle?
然后，我想要达到 EPA 阈值还是瓶子正面所列的阈值？
Because my understanding is that we need to hit a threshold level of EPA in order to derive these important benefits.
因为我的理解是，我们需要达到 EPA 的阈值水平才能获得这些重要的好处。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
I think two grams is a good threshold.
我认为两克是一个很好的阈值。
Now, the International Fish Oil Standards, IFSO, they have a website where they do third-party testing of a ton of different fish oil supplements from around the world, and they measure the concentration of the omega-3 fatty acids in the actual supplement because nothing is ever what it says on the bottle.
现在，国际鱼油标准 (IFSO) 拥有一个网站，对来自世界各地的大量不同鱼油补充剂进行第三方测试，并测量实际补充剂中 omega-3 脂肪酸的浓度，因为一切都与瓶子上的说明不符。
Then they also measure contaminants, so mercury, PCBs, dioxins, things that you'd find potentially in fish that were harmful to humans.
然后他们还测量污染物，例如汞、多氯联苯、二恶英，以及您在鱼类中可能发现的对人类有害的物质。
They also measure mercury and then oxidized fatty acids.
他们还测量汞，然后测量氧化脂肪酸。
So, these omega-3 fatty acids are polyunsaturated fatty acids which are extremely prone to oxidation.
因此，这些 omega-3 脂肪酸是多不饱和脂肪酸，极易氧化。
So, please keep your fish oil in the refrigerator, because it's colder.
所以，请将鱼油放在冰箱里，因为它比较冷。
They're extremely prone-
他们非常容易——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Mine is in the cupboard.
我的在柜子里。
So, now I know.
所以，现在我知道了。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
The shelf life is increased with lower oxidation.
氧化程度降低，保质期延长。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No. It makes perfect sense.
不，这很有道理。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
Right.
对。
Anyways, they measure that and I typically like to look for ...
不管怎样，他们会衡量这一点，我通常喜欢寻找......
They give you a total oxidation number.
他们给你一个总氧化值。
It's called T-O-T-O-X.
它被称为 T-O-T-O-X。
TOTOX is what we call it for short.
TOTOX 是我们对它的简称。
And I like it to be at the least under 10, ideally under six.
我希望它至少在 10 个以下，最好是在 6 个以下。
It's really hard to find all the right mixtures of things.
找到所有事物的正确组合确实很难。
But people can go to this website and they can browse through the products.
但人们可以访问这个网站并可以浏览产品。
I have put together an Excel sheet, which I have a YouTube little screencast that I'm yet to publish, press the publish button on.
我已经整理了一个 Excel 工作表，其中有一个尚未发布的 YouTube 小截屏视频，请按发布按钮。
But basically, you have to go back and check and update because these are from different lot numbers of the products.
但基本上，您必须返回并检查和更新，因为这些来自不同批号的产品。
They do have up to 2027 or something.
他们确实有 2027 年之类的时间。
So, I've gone through and found my top picks of high-EPA brands and high-DHA brands if I were to buy some, the ones that I would choose because of the low total oxidation and the high concentration of either EPA or DHA.
因此，我浏览了一下，发现如果我要购买一些高 EPA 品牌和高 DHA 品牌，我会选择这些品牌，因为总氧化低且 EPA 或 DHA 浓度高。
Now, people can go and do this themselves.
现在，人们可以自己去做这件事。
It just takes some work.
这只是需要一些工作。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No. I'm glad that you did the work.
不，我很高兴你完成了这项工作。
I'm going to put up a tweet every week with you tagged until this list is published online.
我将每周发布一条推文并标记您，直到该列表在线发布。
Sorry, Rhonda, but I'm going to do it.
抱歉，朗达，但我会这么做的。
I know it's very sadistic of me, but in service to the community and myself.
我知道这对我来说非常虐待狂，但这是为了社区和我自己。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
And I chose five brands from each, and I try to choose.
我从每个品牌中选择了五个，并尝试选择。
I tried to find one in Europe and one in Canada.
我试图在欧洲找到一个，在加拿大找到一个。
So, there's a great selection of U.S. and other-
所以，有很多美国和其他国家的选择——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Great.
太棒了。
No. Thank you doing that work.
不，谢谢你做这项工作。
I don't want to do that work, and I trust you.
我不想做这项工作，但我相信你。
I try and get two grams per day of EPA from supplementation.
我尝试每天通过补充剂获取两克 EPA。
I'll now put it in the refrigerator.
我现在把它放进冰箱里。
Mood is better.
心情好一些了。
I made that decision mainly based on the data that I'm aware of, looking at comparison of people doing that anywhere from two to four grams of EPA per day, compared to SSRIs, selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors and treatment of depression.
我做出这个决定主要是基于我所知道的数据，比较了每天摄入 2 到 4 克 EPA 的人们与 SSRIs、选择性血清素再摄取抑制剂和抑郁症治疗的比较。
And I don't want to take an SSRI if I don't have to, and fortunately I don't have to.
如果没有必要，我不想服用 SSRI，幸运的是我不需要。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But the data, by my read, are remarkable.
但根据我的阅读，这些数据非常引人注目。
People that take these things in sufficient doses, meaning the EPAs, are able to get by with much lower dosages of SSRIs for depression relief, or in some cases to come off their SSRIs completely or avoid going on antidepressant medication.
服用足够剂量的这些药物（即 EPA）的人能够使用低剂量的 SSRI 来缓解抑郁症，或者在某些情况下完全停用 SSRI 或避免服用抗抑郁药物。
Now, of course, this is not something people should cowboy.
当然，现在这不是人们应该牛仔的事情。
Mental health issues are serious, but what other reasons, I'd love your thoughts on that, on the mental health part.
心理健康问题很严重，但还有什么其他原因，我想听听您对心理健康方面的想法。
Maybe you could tell us what are some things that getting two to four grams of EPA per day is going to help within our brain and the rest of our body.
也许您可以告诉我们每天摄入 2 到 4 克 EPA 对我们的大脑和身体其他部位有哪些帮助。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
I actually published a paper back in 2015 about the role of omega-3 and vitamin D in depression, bipolar disorder, schizophrenia and impulsive behavior.
事实上，我早在 2015 年就发表了一篇关于 omega-3 和维生素 D 在抑郁症、双相情感障碍、精神分裂症和冲动行为中的作用的论文。
Within that paper, doing background research, and this was a review article, by the way, I was just connecting dots because-
在那篇论文中，做背景研究，这是一篇评论文章，顺便说一句，我只是把点连起来，因为-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No. I'm going to grab that.
不，我要抓住它。
I confess I don't know the paper, but I love quality reviews because the references therein are so useful.
我承认我不了解这篇论文，但我喜欢高质量的评论，因为其中的参考文献非常有用。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
Well, there's a huge role for inflammation, the cause of inflammation and depression.
嗯，炎症起着巨大的作用，它是炎症和抑郁的原因。
And I think we did a short animated video on this, as well, years ago back when I was publishing that work, where people are injected with lipopolysaccharide.
我想我们也制作了一个简短的动画视频，几年前，当我出版那部作品时，人们被注射了脂多糖。
This is something that we're generating from our gut, mostly from our gut permeability, which happens a lot.
这是我们从肠道产生的东西，主要是由肠道通透性产生的，这种情况经常发生。
Endotoxin, it's also called.
内毒素，又称内毒素。
It's endotoxin lipopolysaccharide.
它是内毒素脂多糖。
It's basically the outer membrane of bacterial cells when bacteria die.
当细菌死亡时，它基本上是细菌细胞的外膜。
So, when the immune cells in our gut come into contact with the bacteria, because we drank alcohol five days in a row or whatever, we release endotoxin, or something stressed us out.
因此，当我们肠道中的免疫细胞与细菌接触时，因为我们连续五天喝酒或其他什么原因，我们会释放内毒素，或者一些让我们感到压力的东西。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
We release endotoxin into our body and that causes inflammation.
我们将内毒素释放到体内并引起炎症。
So, you can inject people with lipopolysaccharide and cause depressive symptoms.
因此，你可以给人们注射脂多糖并引起抑郁症状。
However, if you take those same cohort of people, give them EPA, and I think it was somewhere around two grams, and then inject them with lipopolysaccharide, we're establishing causation here, totally, the depressive symptoms versus the placebo.
然而，如果你对同一群人给予他们 EPA，我认为大约是两克，然后给他们注射脂多糖，我们在这里完全建立了抑郁症状与安慰剂的因果关系。
So, the placebo was saline control.
因此，安慰剂是盐水对照。
This was a placebo control because obviously it's hugely important for depression.
这是安慰剂对照，因为显然它对抑郁症非常重要。
It ameliorated the depressive symptoms that was caused by lipopolysaccharide.
它改善了脂多糖引起的抑郁症状。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Amazing.
太棒了。
And LPS, lipopolysaccharide is no joke.
而LPS、脂多糖可不是开玩笑的。
Years ago when I was working on thermoregulation, we would inject animals with LPS to induce fever.
几年前，当我从事体温调节工作时，我们会给动物注射脂多糖来诱导发烧。
The vagus nerve registers the presence of LPS signals to these particular hypothalamic areas and cranks up body temperature, because basically it's a signal that the body is infected.
迷走神经将脂多糖信号记录到这些特定的下丘脑区域并升高体温，因为基本上这是身体被感染的信号。
Right?
正确的？
Amazing.
惊人的。
I will continue with my two grams per day.
我将继续每天两克。
Maybe I'll ramp it up to four.
也许我会把它增加到四个。
I'm not doing the DHA separately.
我不会单独做DHA。
There is DHA in the same supplement.
同一补充剂中含有 DHA。
Is that okay?
可以吗？
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
Yes.
是的。
Boy, we got a lot of things to hit back on because one of your original questions was krill oil versus fish oil, and DHA-
天哪，我们有很多事情要反驳，因为你最初的问题之一是磷虾油与鱼油，以及 DHA-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yes, go in the few.
是的，进去几个。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
DHA, specifically, it's in phospholipid form.
DHA，具体来说，它是磷脂形式的。
It's more bioavailable.
它的生物利用度更高。
Our bodies, if you're comparing exact quantity or concentration in triglyceride form versus phospholipid form, you will get more in your plasma cells or in your plasma with krill oil.
我们的身体，如果您比较甘油三酯形式与磷脂形式的确切数量或浓度，您会在浆细胞或含有磷虾油的血浆中获得更多。
However, krill oil supplements are so low dose, good luck getting two grams of omega-3 from krill oil.
然而，磷虾油补充剂的剂量如此之低，祝你好运从磷虾油中获得两克 omega-3。
Also, oil supplements are notoriously rancid.
此外，油补充剂也是出了名的酸败。
I don't know, for whatever reason-
我不知道，无论出于什么原因——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Maybe that's what made me itchy all over.
也许这就是让我全身发痒的原因。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
I haven't found a good krill oil supplement.
我还没有找到好的磷虾油补充剂。
I pretty much stay away from it.
我几乎远离它。
If you smell it too, it just smells rancid.
如果你也闻一下，那只是腐臭味。
But the thing is, and I also published a paper on this back in 2019 or something like that, about DHA and phospholipid form getting into the brain through a different mechanism than DHA in triglyceride form.
但事实是，我还在 2019 年发表过一篇相关论文或类似文章，内容是关于 DHA 和磷脂形式通过与甘油三酯形式的 DHA 不同的机制进入大脑。
So, it's going through a transporter called the Mfsd2a transporter.
因此，它会通过一个称为 Mfsd2a 转运蛋白的转运蛋白。
And I think it's very relevant for people with an APOE4 allele.
我认为这对于具有 APOE4 等位基因的人来说非常相关。
So, I kind of-
所以，我有点-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
People with an Alzheimer's susceptibility.
患有阿尔茨海默病的人。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
Right.
对。
Twenty-five percent of the population has an allele and a gene called APOE4.
25% 的人口有一个等位基因和一个名为 APOE4 的基因。
Basically, APOE4 is referred to as the bad version of it.
基本上，APOE4 被称为它的坏版本。
This is something in our bodies.
这是我们身体里的东西。
It's also in our brain.
它也在我们的大脑中。
If people have one of these versions, if they got one from their mom or their dad, they have a twofold increased risk for Alzheimer's disease.
如果人们有这些版本中的一种，如果他们从父母那里得到一种，那么他们患阿尔茨海默病的风险就会增加一倍。
If they get two, which is less common, I think it's 2% of the population or something has two alleles, but they have a ten or elevenfold increased risk of Alzheimer's disease.
如果他们有两个（这种情况不太常见），我认为有 2% 的人口或某些东西有两个等位基因，但他们患阿尔茨海默病的风险会增加十倍或十一倍。
So, there is a role for phospholipid form DHA in their brain, but you also make phospholipid DHA inside your body.
因此，磷脂形式的 DHA 在大脑中发挥作用，但您也在体内制造磷脂 DHA。
And you can do that by taking in more triglyceride forms.
您可以通过摄入更多的甘油三酯形式来做到这一点。
So, two grams is the magic number, I think.
所以，我认为，两克是一个神奇的数字。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
Back to the why for fish oil.
回到为什么要吃鱼油。
I personally think it is one of the most powerful anti-inflammatory things, dietary lifestyle things, that we can get easily, relatively easily that is going to powerfully modulate the way you think, the way you feel, and the way you age.
我个人认为它是最强大的抗炎物质之一，是饮食生活方式的物质，我们可以轻松、相对容易地获得它，它将有力地调节您的思维方式、感觉方式和衰老方式。
A variety of different types of studies led me to that conclusion.
各种不同类型的研究使我得出了这个结论。
A variety of observational studies.
各种观察性研究。
So, there's been lots of work by Dr. Bill Harris and his collaborators looking at, it's called the omega-3 index.
因此，比尔·哈里斯 (Bill Harris) 博士和他的合作者做了很多工作，研究这个指标，即 omega-3 指数。
This is actually the omega-3 level in red blood cells.
这实际上是红细胞中的 omega-3 水平。
So, red blood cells turn over about every 120 days.
因此，红细胞大约每 120 天更新一次。
It's a long-term marker of omega-3 status.
它是 omega-3 状态的长期标志。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
This is very different from 99.9% of any study you see or any lab that you go to get your omega-3 levels tested.
这与您看到的任何研究或您去的任何实验室测试 omega-3 水平的 99.9% 都非常不同。
You're getting your plasma phospholipid levels tested, which is kind of like, you can think of it as "What did I eat a couple days before?
您正在测试血浆磷脂水平，这有点像，您可以将其视为“几天前我吃了什么？
I had fish.
我吃了鱼。
My omega-3 levels are great!" But did you eat fish like that every week, or was it like you went out to dinner?
我的 omega-3 水平非常好！”但你是每周都这样吃鱼，还是像出去吃饭一样？
So, it's not a great biomarker for long-term omega-3 status.
因此，它并不是长期 omega-3 状态的良好生物标志物。
It's kind of like the fasting blood glucose levels versus the HbA1C, which is like a long-term marker of your blood glucose levels.
这有点像空腹血糖水平与 HbA1C 的比较，后者是血糖水平的长期指标。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
The omega-3 index, he's done a variety of studies, observational studies.
对于omega-3指数，他做了各种研究、观察性研究。
For people listening, these are studies that are obviously flawed because they're not establishing causality.
对于听众来说，这些研究显然存在缺陷，因为它们没有建立因果关系。
You're looking at people's lifestyles.
你正在关注人们的生活方式。
But in the case of Bill Harris's work, he's measuring something.
但就比尔·哈里斯的工作而言，他正在衡量一些东西。
He is measuring omega-3 index and he's measuring the omega-3 index in people and then looking at their mortality risk, for example, or their cardiovascular disease risk.
他正在测量 omega-3 指数，他正在测量人们的 omega-3 指数，然后观察他们的死亡风险，例如，或心血管疾病的风险。
What he has found is that most ...
他发现，大多数...
First of all, standard American diet has omega-3 index of 5%.
首先，标准的美国饮食中omega-3指数为5%。
Japan, by contrast, has an omega-3 index of around 10 to 11%.
相比之下，日本的 omega-3 指数约为 10% 至 11%。
Big difference there.
差别很大。
They also have about a five-year increased life expectancy compared to people in the U.S. And that's-
与美国人相比，他们的预期寿命也延长了大约五年，那就是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do you think that's mainly due to their fish intake, seafood intake?
你认为这主要是由于他们摄入鱼类、海鲜造成的吗？
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
What he showed was, I think it's a big part of it, I mean you can't always say it's the only thing, but what he showed in his data was that, and I think it was Framingham study, where he looked at the omega-3 index in people that had a omega-3 index of 4% or lower, so close to what the standard American is, but a little bit lower.
他所展示的是，我认为这是其中很重要的一部分，我的意思是你不能总是说这是唯一的事情，但他在数据中展示的是这一点，我认为这是弗雷明汉的研究，他研究了 omega-3 指数为 4% 或更低的人的 omega-3 指数，非常接近美国人的标准，但略低一点。
They had a five-year decreased life expectancy compared to people that had an 8% omega-3 index.
与 omega-3 指数为 8% 的人相比，他们的预期寿命缩短了五年。
So, big difference there, right?
那么，差别很大，对吧？
Five years life expectancy.
预期寿命五年。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
But here's the really interesting thing, Andrew.
但这是真正有趣的事情，安德鲁。
He also looked at smokers, and smokers and their omega-3 levels, and so he stratified it.
他还研究了吸烟者、吸烟者及其 omega-3 水平，因此他将其进行了分层。
Right?
正确的？
And he found smokers that had no omega-3 were the worst of all.
他发现缺乏 omega-3 的吸烟者是最糟糕的。
It was just worst.
这是最糟糕的。
We all know smoking is bad for us and will take years off our life expectancy.
我们都知道吸烟对我们有害，并且会缩短我们的预期寿命。
But smokers that had the high level, like smokers that were taking their fish oil or eating fish or whatever it was they were doing to get them up to 8%, they had the same life expectancy as nonsmokers with the low omega-3 index.
但是，Omega-3 指数高的吸烟者，例如服用鱼油或吃鱼或采取任何措施使 Omega-3 指数达到 8% 的吸烟者，他们的预期寿命与 Omega-3 指数低的非吸烟者相同。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wow.
哇。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
Right?
对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wow.
哇。
That's amazing.
太棒了。
It's also amazing to me that people still smoke cigarettes, but I see a lot of people vaping, and I know a lot of people consume cannabis.
让我感到惊讶的是，人们仍然吸烟，但我看到很多人吸电子烟，而且我知道很多人吸食大麻。
Has there been any studies specifically of vaping or people smoking marijuana and all-cause mortality?
是否有专门针对电子烟或吸食大麻与全因死亡率之间关系的研究？
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
I haven't seen those.
我还没见过那些。
I haven't seen those.
我还没见过那些。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They're not motivated enough to come in as research subjects.
他们没有足够的动力来作为研究对象。
That was again a poor joke.
这又是一个蹩脚的玩笑。
It is hard to study people ...
研究人是一件很困难的事...
marijuana use, unless, I'm told by my colleagues that study this stuff, unless you offer people marijuana, in which case they'll do it.
使用大麻，除非我的同事告诉我研究这些东西，除非你向人们提供大麻，在这种情况下他们会这样做。
But again, they're actually not very good research subjects, in all seriousness, because they are not very motivated or consistent, and they forget their appointments.
但话又说回来，严肃地说，他们实际上并不是很好的研究对象，因为他们缺乏积极性或一致性，而且他们忘记了自己的约会。
So, that's incredible.
所以，这太不可思议了。
You mentioned that the data on pollution related to the plant compounds earlier.
您之前提到与植物化合物有关的污染数据。
So, it's almost like these things again, are acting in a reparative way.
所以，这几乎就像这些东西再次以修复的方式发挥作用。
Food-
食品-
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
The omega-3s, they are resolving inflammation.
omega-3 可以解决炎症。
They're blunting inflammation.
它们可以减轻炎症。
They're doing so many different ...
他们在做很多不同的事...
They affect so many different parts of the inflammatory pathway, which is ...
它们影响炎症途径的许多不同部分，这是......
I think it plays a huge role in the way we age, the way our brain ages, the way we feel, our mood, just our joints, all that.
我认为它在我们的衰老方式、我们的大脑衰老方式、我们的感觉方式、我们的情绪、我们的关节等等方面发挥着巨大的作用。
So, it's amazing.
所以，这太神奇了。
It's not-
这不是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I love fish oil.
我喜欢鱼油。
I feel better when I take it.
当我服用它时，我感觉好多了。
I try to eat some fatty fish a couple times a week.
我尝试每周吃几次富含脂肪的鱼。
I do want to just touch on food sources for a moment.
我确实想谈谈食物来源。
First of all, are there plants that are rich in omega-3s?
首先，有没有富含omega-3的植物？
And second, I have some friends who are really into meat, and I like meat a lot.
其次，我有一些朋友非常喜欢吃肉，我也非常喜欢吃肉。
My dad is Argentine, but I don't eat very much of it.
我爸爸是阿根廷人，但我吃得不多。
I try and eat high-quality meats in relatively limited amounts, but I do eat pretty often.
我尝试吃相对有限的优质肉类，但我确实经常吃。
But I've been told by these sources of questionable authority that if an animal grazes on really good grasses, for instance, that the meat can contain a lot of omega-3s, which in principle makes sense based on this omega-3 index, because you're telling me that a lot of this omega-3 is sequestered into the red blood cells.
但这些值得怀疑的权威人士告诉我，如果动物吃真正优质的草，例如，肉中可能含有大量 omega-3，根据这个 omega-3 指数，原则上这是有道理的，因为你告诉我，很多 omega-3 被隔离在红细胞中。
If I'm eating high-quality grass-fed meat and the grasses had omega-3s, do my steaks have omega-3s or no?
如果我吃的是优质草饲肉，并且草中含有 omega-3，那么我的牛排是否含有 omega-3？
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
There was a study published that compared conventional meat, so meat that animals are fed corn or soy or whatever it is-
有一项发表的研究比较了传统的肉类，以及用玉米或大豆或其他任何东西喂养动物的肉类——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Which is terrible, but for animals and people, as far as I can tell.
据我所知，这对于动物和人类来说是可怕的。
I'm sure I'll get some attacks, but that's okay.
我确信我会受到一些攻击，但没关系。
I won't read those comments.
我不会读那些评论。
Again, a joke.
又是一个笑话。
I read all the comments, but it seems to me that these animals have to either be taking fish oil or eat plants that are very rich in omega-3s in order for the meat to actually contain sufficient omega-3s.
我阅读了所有评论，但在我看来，这些动物必须要么服用鱼油，要么吃富含 omega-3 的植物，才能使肉中真正含有足够的 omega-3。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
The meat, comparing the conventional meat to the grass-fed or pasture-raised cows or cattle, there were higher levels of alpha-linoleic acid.
与传统肉类相比，草饲或牧场饲养的牛或牛的肉中，α-亚油酸的含量更高。
And ALA, it can be converted into EPA and DHA, but the conversion is very inefficient and very dependent on a variety of factors, including genetics.
而ALA，它可以转化为EPA和DHA，但转化效率非常低，而且非常依赖于多种因素，包括遗传因素。
Genetics, a huge regulator; some people can do it much better.
遗传学，一个巨大的调节器；有些人可以做得更好。
Others you're getting 5% of conversion to EPA.
其他的则有 5% 转化为 EPA。
Estrogen is a major regulator of making that more efficient.
雌激素是提高效率的主要调节剂。
It makes sense because pregnancy, when your estrogen just goes through the roof, these omega-3 fatty acids play a very important role in brain development.
这是有道理的，因为在怀孕期间，当您的雌激素刚刚达到顶峰时，这些 omega-3 脂肪酸在大脑发育中发挥着非常重要的作用。
So, women are supposed to be converting any ALA they can into the longer chain omega-3 fatty acids.
因此，女性应该尽可能将 ALA 转化为长链 omega-3 脂肪酸。
Right?
正确的？
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
Estrogen does affect that.
雌激素确实会影响这一点。
But I would say plant sources, if you're looking for the ALA, plant sources would be walnuts, flaxseeds, those are probably the highest.
但我会说植物来源，如果你正在寻找 ALA，植物来源将是核桃、亚麻籽，这些可能是最高的。
But if a person is a vegan or a vegetarian, their best bet is to actually get microalgae oil, and you can supplement with microalgae oil, because microalgae, they do make the DHA.
但如果一个人是素食主义者或素食主义者，他们最好的选择是实际获取微藻油，并且您可以补充微藻油，因为微藻确实会产生 DHA。
That would be a better source for people that are vegetarian and vegan, rather than doing the flaxseed oil, because that conversion inefficiency, the enzymes that convert ALA into EPA and DHA, again, it's inefficient.
对于素食者和纯素食者来说，这将是比亚麻籽油更好的来源，因为转化效率低下，将 ALA 转化为 EPA 和 DHA 的酶同样效率低下。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Then for people that eat fish, sardines, you said-
那么对于吃鱼、沙丁鱼的人，你说——
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
Salmon.
鲑鱼。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
salmon, and you have to eat the skin, as I understand.
鲑鱼，据我了解，你必须吃皮。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
You don't have to, but it's good.
你不必这样做，但这很好。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's rich with omegas.
它富含欧米伽。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
With the oil, yeah.
加了油就可以了
The reason I say, I think the best would be wild Alaskan salmon versus the farm raised because the farm raised, again, they're feeding them corn.
我之所以这么说，我认为最好的选择是野生阿拉斯加鲑鱼与农场饲养的鲑鱼，因为农场饲养的鲑鱼再次喂玉米。
They're feeding them like grain and stuff.
他们给它们喂谷物之类的东西。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Really?
真的吗？
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
Then they give them astaxanthins.
然后他们给它们虾青素。
Astaxanthin is a carotenoid.
虾青素是一种类胡萝卜素。
It's the carotenoid that's in things like krill or crustaceans that make their red pigment.
磷虾或甲壳类动物中的类胡萝卜素产生了红色素。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
It's also being used now as a supplement, and there's a prescription form to try and rescue some age-related vision loss because of the role of the vitamin A pathway and photoreceptors.
它现在也被用作补充剂，并且由于维生素 A 途径和光感受器的作用，有一种处方形式可以尝试挽救一些与年龄相关的视力丧失。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
Yeah.
是的。
Well actually, the carotenoids themselves, so luteins, zeaxanthin, they're really good at sequestering singlet oxygen, which is damaging, right?
事实上，类胡萝卜素本身，例如叶黄素、玉米黄质，它们真的很擅长隔离单线态氧，这是有害的，对吧？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Yeah.
是的。
As we age, because the retinal cells, the cells of the eye are so metabolically active, they accumulate a lot of reactive oxygen species, and mitochondrial repair and limiting reactive oxygen species is a major theme of trying to rescue vision.
随着年龄的增长，由于视网膜细胞、眼睛细胞的代谢非常活跃，它们会积累大量的活性氧，而线粒体修复和限制活性氧是试图挽救视力的一个主题。
I think that's a whole other podcast in story.
我认为这完全是另一个播客的故事。
There's some really interesting data now on the use of red light to try and trigger these pathways.
现在有一些关于使用红光来尝试触发这些通路的非常有趣的数据。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
I've seen some.
我见过一些。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Glen, that's my good friend of many years and amazing scientist, Glen Jeffery's lab at University of College London.
格伦，这是我多年的好朋友，也是一位了不起的科学家，格伦杰弗里在伦敦大学学院的实验室。
We should talk about that at some point, if not today.
如果不是今天，我们应该在某个时候讨论这个问题。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
I saw that study, like 2020, was it?
我看到了那个研究，比如 2020 年，是吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Now they have a second study.
现在他们进行了第二项研究。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
Do they?
他们有吗？
They've gone ...
他们已经走了...
okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, it's looking real.
是的，看起来很真实。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
That's exciting.
这太令人兴奋了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They're cautious.
他们很谨慎。
They're appropriately British and cautious about it.
他们是典型的英国人，对此持谨慎态度。
I always joke if those studies have been done over here, everyone would already know about it.
我总是开玩笑说，如果这些研究在这里完成的话，每个人都已经知道了。
Glen is a very conservative guy, but they've done this stuff now in pigs and rodent models and now also two studies in humans.
格伦是一个非常保守的人，但他们现在已经在猪和啮齿动物模型中做了这些事情，现在还在人类身上进行了两项研究。
It's looking pretty interesting.
看起来很有趣。
So, sardines, but also anchovies.
所以，沙丁鱼，还有凤尾鱼。
By the way, I hate all the food items that I'm describing.
顺便说一句，我讨厌我所描述的所有食物。
I can barely tolerate salmon.
我几乎无法忍受鲑鱼。
I don't like fish at all.
我根本不喜欢鱼。
Actually, I like live fish.
事实上，我喜欢活鱼。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
Fish oil is good for you.
鱼油对你有好处。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I have fish tanks when I was a kid.
我小时候有鱼缸。
No. Fish, unless it's in sushi form, I find it absolutely repulsive.
不，鱼，除非是寿司形式的，否则我觉得绝对令人厌恶。
And I don't know why.
我不知道为什么。
I probably have some mutation that-
我可能有一些突变——
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
Raw fish is actually higher in mercury than cooked.
生鱼实际上比熟鱼的汞含量更高。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Well, that's good.
嗯，那很好。
Now I don't really like sushi that much, anyway.
无论如何，现在我不太喜欢寿司。
You're giving me great reasons to not eat fish, but except I should eat these other fish sources or supplement more heavily.
你给了我很好的理由不吃鱼，但除了我应该吃这些其他鱼类来源或更多地补充。
That's the message I'm getting.
这就是我收到的信息。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
I eat sardines every day.
我每天都吃沙丁鱼。
My first meal, almost, is a can of sardines and an avocado with-
我的第一顿饭几乎是一罐沙丁鱼和一个鳄梨，还有-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Avocado is good.
鳄梨很好。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
I love it.
我喜欢它。
With a little bit of lemon and then some little hot sauce.
加一点柠檬，然后加一点辣酱。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Does Avocado have omega-3s?
鳄梨含有omega-3吗？
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
Avocado is very good in monounsaturated fat.
鳄梨富含单不饱和脂肪。
It's not really high in polyunsaturated fat.
它的多不饱和脂肪含量并不高。
Omega-3, really, it's either the DHA and EPA that's in the marine sources, fish, or it's the plant ALA source, which is the flaxseed or the walnuts.
事实上，Omega-3 要么是海洋来源、鱼类中的 DHA 和 EPA，要么是植物 ALA 来源，即亚麻籽或核桃。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's rough.
很粗糙。
All these companies now are making these plant-based products that taste like meat.
所有这些公司现在都在生产这些味道像肉的植物性产品。
My wish is that they would just make a fish that tastes like a steak, but that's-
我的愿望是他们只做一条尝起来像牛排的鱼，但那是-
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
The fish come out albino, the ones that they farm raise, because they don't eat any of the-
这些鱼出来时都是白化病，是他们养殖的，因为它们不吃任何——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm joking.
我在开玩笑。
I don't want a genetically modified fish that tastes like a steak.
我不想要味道像牛排的转基因鱼。
Although, I love the taste of steak.
不过，我还是很喜欢牛排的味道。
The point here is that if one doesn't see themselves regularly consuming these fish sources of omega-3s, it seems to me that the only way to really get them is from supplementation.
这里的要点是，如果一个人不经常食用这些鱼类来源的 omega-3，在我看来，真正获取它们的唯一方法就是通过补充剂。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
And supplementation is a good way to get a high dose and to get back to your dose point.
补充剂是获得高剂量并恢复到剂量点的好方法。
There was a couple of studies that basically ...
有几项研究基本上...
I think there was some way they showed that people that are in the 4% omega-3 index range, in order to get to the 8%, the five-year increased life expectancy if we're comparing the two groups, was to supplement with at least two grams.
我认为他们通过某种方式表明，如果我们比较两组，omega-3 指数范围为 4% 的人，为了达到 8%（预期寿命延长五年），至少需要补充两克。
It was about two grams a day.
每天大约两克。
I think it was a little bit less if it was triglyceride form, but I think two grams is a good, safe number.
我认为如果是甘油三酯形式的话会少一点，但我认为两克是一个很好的、安全的数字。
So, most Americans that are not eating a lot of fish, and they're not supplementing are probably around a 4 to 5% omega-3 index, and to get to the 8% ...
因此，大多数不吃大量鱼且不补充补充剂的美国人的 omega-3 指数可能在 4% 到 5% 左右，要达到 8%...
I think that's a good empirical way of thinking about it.
我认为这是一种很好的实证思考方式。
Right?
正确的？
Okay.
好的。
Well, I want to get to that 8%.
嗯，我想达到那 8%。
By the way, I am almost 16% omega-3 index.
顺便说一下，我的omega-3指数差不多是16%。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I was going to ask about testing.
我本来想问一下测试的事。
Where and how can somebody measure their omega-3 index?
人们可以在哪里以及如何测量他们的 omega-3 指数？
Which again, just to remind people, is essentially the percentage of omega-3s that you have in your blood, with the caveat that the omega-3 index will be heavily biased by what you ate in the previous days.
再次提醒人们，这本质上是您血液中 omega-3 的百分比，但需要注意的是，omega-3 指数会因您前几天的饮食而产生严重偏差。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
Not the omega-3 index.
不是 omega-3 指数。
Okay.
好的。
So, the omega 3-
所以，欧米伽 3-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sorry.
抱歉。
I misunderstood.
我误会了。
I thought you said in red blood cells.
我以为你说的是红细胞。
If I ate salmon two days ago, my omega-3 index is going to go up.
如果我两天前吃了三文鱼，我的 omega-3 指数就会上升。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
No. That was plasma.
不，那是血浆。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I misunderstood.
我误会了。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
That's okay.
没关系。
Most people are measuring ...
大多数人都在测量...
if you look at a lot of studies, and honestly, Andrew, I think a lot of the reason for conflicting data is because people are measuring plasma omega-3 levels.
如果你看过很多研究，老实说，安德鲁，我认为数据相互矛盾的很多原因是因为人们正在测量血浆 omega-3 水平。
The phospholipids, it's in a phospholipid.
磷脂，它在磷脂中。
Right?
正确的？
So, your phospholipids are carrying thing, these are lipoproteins, like they're carrying things like omega-3 and triglycerides and stuff and shuttling them around.
所以，你的磷脂携带着脂蛋白，就像它们携带着 omega-3 和甘油三酯之类的东西，并让它们四处穿梭。
The omega-3 index is actually in the red blood cells, and red blood cells take 120 days to turn over.
omega-3指数实际上存在于红细胞中，而红细胞需要120天才能完成更新。
So, if you're going to do a baseline test, if you want to know before supplementing what your level is, you have to wait 120 days before doing the second test after supplementing to know how much you went up, because that's how long it takes for your red blood cell to turn over.
所以，如果你要做一个基线测试，如果你想在补充之前知道你的水平是多少，你必须等待120天才能在补充后进行第二次测试才能知道你上升了多少，因为这就是你的红细胞更新需要多长时间。
The omega-3 index, Bill Harris has a company that he cofounded, is called OmegaQuant.
omega-3指数，比尔·哈里斯（Bill Harris）有一家他联合创立的公司，叫做OmegaQuant。
And they measure the omega-3 index.
他们测量 omega-3 指数。
They have a variety of different index tests.
他们有各种不同的指标测试。
You can do a basic one or a little more advanced.
您可以进行基本的操作，也可以进行更高级的操作。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This is from a blood draw.
这是抽血所得。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
It's a little blood spot thing, yeah.
是的，这是一个小血点。
He uses money to funnel back into doing lipid research.
他用钱重新投入脂质研究。
He's out there doing all sorts of interesting studies on omega-3s.
他在那里对 omega-3 进行了各种有趣的研究。
It's great.
这很棒。
But the omega-3 index is great.
但omega-3指数很棒。
I think that, honestly, more people and more researchers should be using it because the conflicting data, it always comes down to what we're measuring, the sensitivity of it.
老实说，我认为应该有更多的人和更多的研究人员使用它，因为相互矛盾的数据总是取决于我们测量的内容及其敏感性。
Are we even measuring anything?
我们是否测量过任何东西？
You're giving someone 500 milligrams of DHA and you don't see any effect.
您给某人服用 500 毫克 DHA，但没有看到任何效果。
Well, did you measure what their levels were and did you measure the omega-3 index?
那么，您是否测量了他们的水平以及 omega-3 指数？
There's all sorts of problems with randomized controlled trials.
随机对照试验存在各种各样的问题。
I think that as scientists, we need to come together and make some progress.
我认为作为科学家，我们需要团结起来并取得一些进展。
Let's all talk to each other.
我们大家互相谈谈吧。
Let's figure things out.
让我们把事情弄清楚吧。
This test is out there.
这个测试就在那里。
It should be used.
应该使用它。
It should be used not just by Bill's group, but everyone.
它不仅应该由比尔的团队使用，而且应该由每个人使用。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, I'm learning so much from you and I agree we need more collaboration.
嗯，我从你身上学到了很多东西，我同意我们需要更多的合作。
I've always enjoyed really fruitful collaborations in my lab at Stanford, and collaborating is just so much more fun.
我一直很享受在斯坦福大学实验室里卓有成效的合作，而且合作更加有趣。
Online, there seems to be a bias more towards creating silos as opposed to bridges.
在网上，人们似乎更倾向于创建孤岛而不是桥梁。
But I appreciate that you bring up the need for more collaboration, and knowing which measures are best.
但我很欣赏您提出更多合作的需要，并了解哪些措施最好。
And in this case now, thank you for the clarification, I understand this omega-3 index is going to be best.
在这种情况下，谢谢您的澄清，我知道这个 omega-3 指数将是最好的。
Basically now when I look at you, I think you are 16% omega-3.
基本上现在当我看着你时，我认为你有 16% 的 omega-3。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
And dolphins are 19%.
海豚占19%。
I'm almost-
我几乎-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is that your goal?
这是你的目标吗？
You're trying to get there?
你想到达那里吗？
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
It is.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Interesting.
有趣。
Actually, they should probably do something where you're trying to achieve the omega-3 ratio of your favorite species.
事实上，他们可能应该做一些你想要达到你最喜欢的物种的 omega-3 比例的事情。
Now that we've covered a bit of how to get these things into one system, depending on what one eats, et cetera, and some of the better measurements, how is omega-3 and some of these other related lipids, how are they having these positive effects?
现在我们已经介绍了如何将这些物质纳入一个系统（取决于人们吃什么等）以及一些更好的测量方法，那么 omega-3 和其他一些相关脂质如何，它们如何产生这些积极作用？
In my mind, and this is incredibly elementary, but my understanding is that at some level they're making platelets more slippery.
在我看来，这是非常基本的，但我的理解是，在某种程度上，它们使血小板变得更滑。
Is that true or not?
这是真的还是假的？
I'm happy to be wrong.
我很高兴自己错了。
How is it possibly impacting my mood?
它如何影响我的情绪？
Is it through the synthesis of membrane on neurons that allows neurons to release more transmitter, like serotonin and dopamine?
是通过神经元上膜的合成，让神经元释放更多的递质，如血清素和多巴胺吗？
What are some of the purported, reported, and known mechanisms?
据称、报道和已知的机制有哪些？
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
I think some of the most well-known-
我认为一些最知名的——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mechanisms.
机制。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
I think some of the most well-known mechanisms do have to do with the omega-3 fatty acids being very powerful regulators of the inflammatory process in some way, shape or form.
我认为一些最著名的机制确实与 omega-3 脂肪酸有关，它以某种方式、形状或形式对炎症过程起到非常强大的调节作用。
Whether that has to do with resolvins that are produced ...
这是否与产生的解析素有关......
So, from the metabolites of like DHA, for example, resolvins play a role in resolving inflammation.
因此，例如 DHA 等代谢物中的消退素在解决炎症方面发挥着作用。
You want your inflammatory response to be activated when it's supposed to be, but you want to resolve that inflammation in the inflammatory response in a timely manner.
您希望炎症反应在应有的时候被激活，但您希望及时解决炎症反应中的炎症。
And resolvins help do that.
解决方案可以帮助做到这一点。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
So, resolvins are one.
所以，解决方案就是其中之一。
And then there's these specialized pro-mediating molecules, the SPMs, that also help resolve the inflammation.
然后还有这些专门的促介导分子，SPM，也有助于解决炎症。
There's, like you mentioned, the leukotrienes and prostaglandins, and these things are being affected by EPA, and they do affect platelets and platelet aggregation, and they do affect that whole pathway as well.
就像你提到的，白三烯和前列腺素，这些东西都受到 EPA 的影响，它们确实影响血小板和血小板聚集，它们也确实影响整个途径。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
So, I think there's just so many different ways and inputs.
所以，我认为有很多不同的方式和投入。
When we talk about inflammation, honestly it's a big general term, but you're talking about, when you're talking about serotonin release at the level of neurons, we know that these inflammatory molecules cross the blood-brain barrier.
当我们谈论炎症时，老实说，这是一个很大的通用术语，但当你谈论神经元水平的血清素释放时，我们知道这些炎症分子穿过血脑屏障。
And I just mentioned ago about injecting people with lipopolysaccharide and causing depressive symptoms.
我刚才提到给人们注射脂多糖会导致抑郁症状。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
It's known that omega-3, actually specifically EPA, is able to help serotonin ...
众所周知，omega-3，实际上是 EPA，能够帮助血清素......
Inflammation inhibits the release of serotonin.
炎症会抑制血清素的释放。
And so EPA is actually able to blunt inflammatory responses, along with DHA as well.
因此 EPA 实际上能够与 DHA 一起减弱炎症反应。
DHA does that through resolvins and stuff.
DHA 通过分解蛋白等来做到这一点。
And this then helps more serotonin be released because you're not having so much inflammation getting into the brain and affecting serotonin release.
这有助于释放更多的血清素，因为你不会有太多的炎症进入大脑并影响血清素的释放。
Right?
正确的？
That's one mechanism.
这是一种机制。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
And then another would be, well DHA itself has been shown, it's a very important fatty acid that makes up cell membranes, many cell membranes, including in our neurons.
另一个是，DHA 本身已经被证明，它是一种非常重要的脂肪酸，构成细胞膜，许多细胞膜，包括我们的神经元。
And as you very well know, Andrew, the structure and function of receptors of transporters, these membrane-bound proteins on the surface of our cells, including neurons, are affected by the membrane fluidity, how rigid and how fluid the cell membrane is.
正如你所知道的，安德鲁，转运蛋白受体的结构和功能，我们细胞表面的这些膜结合蛋白，包括神经元，受到膜流动性、细胞膜刚性和流动性的影响。
And DHA plays a role in that.
DHA 在其中发挥着重要作用。
And so for example, in animal studies, if you make an animal deficient in DHA, their serotonin receptors, dopamine receptors, they're affected because the structure of them is affected through the fluidity of the membrane.
例如，在动物研究中，如果你让动物缺乏 DHA、血清素受体、多巴胺受体，它们就会受到影响，因为它们的结构会通过膜的流动性受到影响。
And so I think that's another mechanism.
所以我认为这是另一种机制。
And I'm talking sort of general 'cause I'm not a neuroscientist.
我说的是一般性的，因为我不是神经科学家。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, but it makes perfect sense.
不，但这很有道理。
I mean, we know, for instance, neuroplasticity almost always involves the recruitment of more receptors or an improvement in some feature of receptors to neurotransmitters, and they literally move laterally in the membrane.
我的意思是，例如，我们知道，神经可塑性几乎总是涉及招募更多受体或改善神经递质受体的某些特征，并且它们实际上在膜中横向移动。
They kind of float around little rafts.
它们有点漂浮在小木筏周围。
Sometimes they are in fact in lipid rafts.
有时它们实际上是在脂筏中。
And so it makes perfect sense that these molecules like DHA, which are part of the structural fat of the neuron, because of course the outsides of neurons are basically fat, not just the myelin that people have heard of, but the actual membranes, that if getting that right ...
因此，像 DHA 这样的分子是神经元结构脂肪的一部分，这是完全有道理的，因为当然，神经元的外部基本上都是脂肪，不仅仅是人们听说过的髓磷脂，还有实际的细胞膜，如果正确的话……
You wouldn't want it as rigid as concrete, but you wouldn't want it as soft as ...
你不会希望它像混凝土一样坚硬，但你也不希望它像......
Need to come up with something here.
需要在这里想出一些办法。
What's that gooey stuff that kids play with?
孩子们玩的粘糊糊的东西是什么？
It's like that goo.
就像那个粘糊糊的。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
Um.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Anyway, there's a, it's disgusting and it's too soft to be a membrane for a neuron.
无论如何，有一个，它很恶心，而且太软，不能作为神经元的膜。
That's what we know.
这就是我们所知道的。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
You get it in those machines, like claw machines.
你可以在那些机器中得到它，比如抓娃娃机。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Someone put in the comments and tell me what that disgusting, gooey stuff is.
有人发表评论并告诉我那个恶心的、粘糊糊的东西是什么。
You don't want your neurons to be that gooey, and yet you don't want them to be like concrete either.
你不希望你的神经元变得那么粘稠，但你也不希望它们像混凝土一样。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
It's a balance.
这是一种平衡。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's a balance.
这是一种平衡。
And in mentioning DHA, I'm just going to ...
说到 DHA，我只想...
I realize I'm backtracking, but I want to make sure that we close all the hatches for people.
我意识到我正在走回头路，但我想确保我们为人们关闭所有的舱门。
We talked a lot about EPA, but are food sources of DHA that you find particularly attractive either by taste or by potency for DHA, what are just a few that we could throw out?
我们谈论了很多关于 EPA 的内容，但是您认为 DHA 的食物来源是否从味道或 DHA 效力方面特别有吸引力，我们可以丢弃哪些食物来源？
Because I am aware that there are supplements where you can get a nice ratio of EPA to DHA, or you take them separately as you do.
因为我知道有些补充剂可以让您获得适当比例的 EPA 和 DHA，或者您也可以单独服用。
But if I want to make sure that I'm getting enough DHA, what do I need to be sure I'm eating on a regular basis?
但如果我想确保获得足够的 DHA，我需要做什么才能确保定期饮食？
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
Well the fish is packaging the DHA and EPA in ratio.
鱼按比例包装 DHA 和 EPA。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right, Okay.
对了，好吧。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
But I also do eat salmon roe, which is very salty, and it's a really high source of the phosphatidylcholine DHA that we talked about-
但我也吃鲑鱼子，它非常咸，而且它是我们谈到的磷脂酰胆碱 DHA 的高来源——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This is fish eggs.
这是鱼卵。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
It is.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
And actually-
而实际上——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That I like for some reason.
我出于某种原因喜欢。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
Oh do you?
哦，你呢？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, I'll eat ...
是的，我会吃...
So I'm discovering something about myself.
所以我正在发现一些关于我自己的事情。
This was not meant to be nutritional psychotherapy, but you're doing that for me anyway.
这并不是营养心理治疗，但无论如何你都是在为我做这件事。
I'm discovering that I like eating embryonic fish.
我发现我喜欢吃胚胎鱼。
I just don't like eating the actual fish.
我只是不喜欢吃真正的鱼。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
Okay, well ...
好吧，好吧...
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay, so fish eggs are okay, so caviar basically.
好吧，鱼蛋还可以，鱼子酱基本上就是这样。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
Caviar, yes.
鱼子酱，是的。
And that's a good source of the phospholipid form.
这是磷脂形式的良好来源。
And I was consuming that a lot because I wanted to get the phospholipid form.
我吃了很多，因为我想得到磷脂形式。
It's actually really good ...
其实真的很好...
There's been some animal studies in piglets, and rodents as well, showing that consuming phospholipid DHA during fetal brain development gets 10 times more DHA in the brain.
对仔猪和啮齿类动物进行的一些动物研究表明，在胎儿大脑发育过程中摄入磷脂 DHA，大脑中的 DHA 含量会增加 10 倍。
Again, it's-
再说一遍，这是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Makes sense based on fetal development.
根据胎儿的发育情况是有意义的。
So do I need to buy beluga caviar?
那我需要买白鲸鱼子酱吗？
Stuff can get pretty expensive at $200 a tin?
一罐 200 美元的东西会变得相当昂贵吗？
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
I don't think you need to.
我认为你不需要。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
I think it's a matter of preference.
我认为这是一个偏好问题。
And if you're supplementing with your two to four grams of fish oil, I mean that, you're going to get phospholipid form anyway, because your body's going to make it.
如果您补充两到四克鱼油，我的意思是，无论如何您都会获得磷脂形式，因为您的身体会制造它。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
I've seen some containers of what I assume to be quality fish eggs that are not at the caviar level that you can find in the better grocery stores that aren't super expensive.
我见过一些容器，里面装着我认为是优质鱼子的鱼子，但它们并不达到鱼子酱的水平，你可以在更好的杂货店找到这些鱼子，它们的价格也不是很贵。
I wouldn't dip as low as to go eat, for instance, like fishing bait, like when we were kids we used to go fishing.
例如，我不会像钓鱼饵一样低到去吃饭，就像我们小时候经常去钓鱼一样。
You'd put the fish egg on the thing.
你会把鱼卵放在那个东西上。
That's probably not good.
这可能不太好。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
No.
不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Although it's good enough for the fish apparently.
虽然对于鱼来说显然已经足够了。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Only half joking here, folks.
伙计们，这里只是半开玩笑。
I'm just trying to protect you from yourselves.
我只是想保护你们免受你们自己的伤害。
Don't get any crazy ideas about eating fishing bait.
不要对吃鱼饵产生任何疯狂的想法。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay, so that's great to know.
好的，很高兴知道这一点。
So, we have these plant-based compounds.
所以，我们有这些植物性化合物。
We have the omega-3s, so EPA, DHA, and then you mentioned there's a third category.
我们有 omega-3，EPA，DHA，然后你提到还有第三类。
What would you place in your third category of foods or supplement-based nutrients that our health, brain and or body health, can really benefit from?
您认为第三类食物或补充剂营养物质中哪些是我们的健康、大脑和/或身体健康真正可以受益的？
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
I mean I think the most obvious would be vitamin D, which is actually, as you know, a steroid hormone that we produce when we're in the sun, depending on the time of year we can make it in our skin.
我的意思是，我认为最明显的是维生素 D，正如你所知，它实际上是一种类固醇激素，是我们在阳光下产生的，具体取决于一年中我们皮肤中产生这种激素的时间。
And depending on how much melanin we have in our skin or whether or not we're wearing sunscreen or how old we are, it's a very, there's a sliding scale on how efficient that process is.
根据我们皮肤中黑色素的含量，或者我们是否涂防晒霜，或者我们的年龄，这个过程的效率是有一个滑动尺度的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it's, as I understand there's an inverse relationship where the darker your skin is naturally the more vitamin D you need to consume.
据我所知，这是一种反比关系，皮肤越黑，自然需要消耗的维生素 D 就越多。
Is that right?
是这样吗？
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
Well the darker your skin is, the harder it is ...
那么你的皮肤越黑，它就越难......
So there was a study out of the University of Chicago, this was several years ago, where they looked at African Americans and compared African Americans to Caucasians with light skin, fair skin, and how well they could make vitamin D from sun exposure and how long they had to be in the sun to make X amount.
几年前，芝加哥大学进行了一项研究，他们对非裔美国人进行了研究，将非裔美国人与白种人进行了比较，他们的皮肤浅色、白皙，以及他们通过阳光照射生成维生素 D 的能力如何，以及他们需要在阳光下呆多久才能生成 X 量。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
It turns out that African Americans with darker pigmentation, which protects them from the burning rays of the sun, it's a natural sunscreen, had to stay in the sun six times as long as someone with none of that natural sunscreen.
事实证明，肤色较深的非裔美国人（这种天然防晒霜可以保护他们免受阳光的灼伤）在阳光下停留的时间是没有使用天然防晒霜的人的六倍。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
I think the take home there is a lot of people with a darker skin living in sub-Saharan Africa or people living in India with darker skin or in the Philippines, these equatorial regions where there's, you tend to see darker skin because it's protection from the burning rays of the sun.
我认为带回家的是，有很多肤色较深的人生活在撒哈拉以南非洲，或者生活在印度或菲律宾的肤色较深的人，这些赤道地区的人，你往往会看到肤色较深的人，因为它可以防止太阳的灼热射线。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's an adaptation.
这是一种适应。
Yeah.
是的。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
They are in the sun more.
他们更多的是在阳光下。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Yeah.
是的。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
And they're getting more vitamin D.
他们获得了更多的维生素 D。
But people that maybe moved to the United States to Minnesota or in a place where UVB radiation isn't getting to the atmosphere 12 months out of the year, it's only getting there four months, for example.
但是，对于那些可能搬到美国明尼苏达州或 UVB 辐射一年中 12 个月都不会到达大气层的地方的人来说，例如，只有 4 个月才到达那里。
Or even living in our modern day society where people just don't go outside anymore.
或者甚至生活在人们不再出门的现代社会。
I mean we're inside, we're at our laptops in school, we're at work, we're in our cubicle, whatever.
我的意思是我们在里面，我们在学校的笔记本电脑前，我们在工作，我们在我们的小隔间里，等等。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
So, supplementation does play a major role, not only for people with darker skin that aren't outside all the time, but for everyone.
因此，补充剂确实发挥着重要作用，不仅对那些不常外出的深色皮肤的人来说，而且对每个人来说都是如此。
Seventy percent of the U.S. population has inadequate vitamin D levels.
70% 的美国人维生素 D 水平不足。
Seventy, of the whole U.S.
全美七十人
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Amazing.
太棒了。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
So this is everyone.
所以这就是每个人。
And so I think that insufficient level is defined as less than 30 nanograms per milliliter.
所以我认为不足的水平被定义为低于每毫升 30 纳克。
And that's sort of defined by the endocrine society, looking at a lot of different aggregate studies and all-cause mortality, for example.
这是由内分泌学会定义的，例如，研究了许多不同的总体研究和全因死亡率。
There's been a lot of different meta-analysis of all-cause mortality studies where vitamin D levels are really, seem to be ideal between 40 to 60 nanograms per milliliter.
对全因死亡率研究进行了许多不同的荟萃分析，其中维生素 D 水平实际上似乎是理想的水平，介于 40 至 60 纳克/毫升之间。
In order to get to that level, if you are not outside all the time, live in Southern California, where you're always outside without sunscreen on ...
为了达到这个水平，如果你不是一直在外面，住在南加州，在那里你总是在外面不涂防晒霜......
I always wear sunscreen because I'm trying to protect my skin from so many wrinkles and stuff.
我总是涂防晒霜，因为我想保护我的皮肤免受皱纹之类的东西的侵害。
But also skin cancer is somewhat of an issue as well.
但皮肤癌也是一个问题。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
Basically the point is that vitamin D is a steroid hormone, meaning it actually binds to a receptor and another receptor dimerizes with it, the retinoid receptor.
基本上，要点是维生素 D 是一种类固醇激素，这意味着它实际上与一种受体结合，另一种受体与其形成二聚体，即类视黄醇受体。
That complex goes into the nucleus of a cell where your DNA is and it recognizes little sequences of DNA called vitamin D response elements.
该复合物进入 DNA 所在的细胞核，并识别称为维生素 D 反应元件的微小 DNA 序列。
They're called VDREs.
它们被称为 VDRE。
They are specific sequences of DNA that this complex bound with the vitamin D receptor goes inside and recognizes and turns on a whole host of genes, turns off a whole host of genes.
它们是特定的 DNA 序列，与维生素 D 受体结合的复合物进入其中并识别并打开整个基因组，关闭整个基因组。
I mean this is important stuff.
我的意思是这是重要的事情。
Imagine 70% of the population having insufficient testosterone.
想象一下 70% 的人口睾丸激素不足。
Right?
正确的？
It's a steroid hormone.
它是一种类固醇激素。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Which we might be headed there, but probably not.
我们可能会去那里，但也可能不会。
No, I think that it's ...
不，我认为这是...
Names are very important and I think that one of the issues is that vitamin D is called vitamin D, it's not called DHEA or variant blah blah blah.
名称非常重要，我认为问题之一是维生素 D 被称为维生素 D，而不是 DHEA 或变体等等。
It doesn't sound like a hormone.
听起来不像激素。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I also, I'm glad that you're mentioning skin as the major kind of interface between the environment and vitamin D synthesis because a lot of people think of skin as just a protective sheath around us or something to adorn ourselves with, earrings or tattoos or whatever.
我也很高兴您提到皮肤是环境与维生素 D 合成之间的主要界面，因为很多人认为皮肤只是我们周围的保护套，或者是用来装饰自己的东西，比如耳环、纹身等等。
But skin obviously serves those roles.
但皮肤显然起到了这些作用。
But the skin is an endocrine organ.
但皮肤是一个内分泌器官。
It has the capacity to make things that impact hormones and to make hormones.
它有能力制造影响荷尔蒙的物质并制造荷尔蒙。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There's this beautiful study out this last year where, this took place over in Israel, where they had people get outside for 20 or 30 minutes a day, three times a week, exposing a culturally acceptable yet substantial amount of their skin during that time and saw big increases in testosterone and estrogen.
去年在以色列进行了一项精彩的研究，他们让人们每周 3 次，每天外出 20 或 30 分钟，在此期间暴露出文化上可接受的但大量的皮肤，发现睾酮和雌激素大幅增加。
And this is through a keratinocyte-linked pathway involving p53.
这是通过涉及 p53 的角质形成细胞相关途径实现的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They did a bunch ...
他们做了一堆...
This was done in humans, but they did some knockout studies in parallel.
这是在人类身上完成的，但他们同时进行了一些基因敲除研究。
And what this study told me or reminded me is that skin is an endocrine organ.
而这项研究告诉我或者提醒我的是，皮肤是一个内分泌器官。
So the idea that sun could trigger the activation of a production of a hormone is really interesting and makes total sense.
因此，阳光可以触发激素产生的激活这一想法非常有趣，而且完全有道理。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So when vitamin D gets into cells and it's binding to these VDREs, what sorts of things are they triggering?
那么，当维生素 D 进入细胞并与这些 VDRE 结合时，它们会触发什么样的反应呢？
So for testosterone, we know it's going to trigger protein synthesis, muscle growth, tendon strength, et cetera.
因此，对于睾酮，我们知道它会触发蛋白质合成、肌肉生长、肌腱强度等。
With estrogen it's going to be keep your neurons going, your joints feeling good.
雌激素可以让你的神经元保持运转，让你的关节感觉良好。
I always remind people that, by the way, because guys are always seem to want to increase their testosterone and reduce their estrogen.
顺便说一句，我总是提醒人们，因为男人似乎总是想增加睾丸激素并减少雌激素。
Just remind people, if you reduce your estrogen, guys, your libido will plummet to near zero.
只是提醒人们，如果你减少雌激素，伙计们，你的性欲会骤降到接近于零。
Don't crush your estrogen.
不要破坏你的雌激素。
It'll also make you stupid; if you're not already stupid, it will make you stupid.
它还会让你变得愚蠢；如果你还没有变得愚蠢，它就会让你变得愚蠢。
So estrogen's vitally important for males and females.
因此，雌激素对男性和女性都至关重要。
When vitamin D gets into cells, what sorts of things is it stimulating?
当维生素 D 进入细胞时，会刺激哪些物质？
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
Okay, so first of all it's regulating more than 5% of the protein encoded human genome.
好的，首先它调节人类基因组编码蛋白质的 5% 以上。
More than, and this was ...
不止，这是……
I say more than because when I was looking at this data really in-depth back in, starting in 2012 to 2014, it was that and then it's now grown.
我之所以这么说，不仅仅是因为当我从 2012 年到 2014 年真正深入地研究这些数据时，它就是这样的，然后它现在还在增长。
But one of the important things that you'll find interesting that I published on back in 2014 was that I'd gone through this big published database where someone had published all these genes they found VDREs in.
但你会发现我在 2014 年发表的一件重要的事情很有趣，那就是我浏览了这个大型的已发表数据库，其中有人发布了他们在其中发现 VDRE 的所有这些基因。
Basically I found that tryptophan hydroxylase 1 and tryptophan hydroxylase 2 was on there.
基本上我发现色氨酸羟化酶 1 和色氨酸羟化酶 2 就在那里。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
Then I started looking at the sequence, and I was doing some in silico work.
然后我开始查看序列，并做了一些计算机工作。
And it turns out that the VDREs in tryptophan hydroxylase 2 ...
事实证明，色氨酸羟化酶 2 中的 VDRE...
So for people listening, tryptophan hydroxylase is an enzyme that converts tryptophan into serotonin.
因此，对于听的人来说，色氨酸羟化酶是一种将色氨酸转化为血清素的酶。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
Tryptophan is an amino acid that we get from our food.
色氨酸是我们从食物中获取的一种氨基酸。
You convert serotonin, you convert tryptophan into serotonin in the gut, but you also do it in the brain.
你会在肠道中将血清素转化为血清素，将色氨酸转化为血清素，但你也在大脑中进行转化。
However, serotonin does not cross the blood-brain barrier.
然而，血清素不能穿过血脑屏障。
So tryptophan has to get into your brain and then you have to convert it to serotonin in your brain.
因此，色氨酸必须进入您的大脑，然后您必须在大脑中将其转化为血清素。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
Well the enzyme that does that in your brain is called tryptophan hydroxylase 2, and it's activated by vitamin D.
在您的大脑中执行此操作的酶称为色氨酸羟化酶 2，它由维生素 D 激活。
The one in the gut is actually tryptophan hydroxylase 1.
肠道中的酶实际上是色氨酸羟化酶 1。
Some of my published work hypothesized that it might actually be repressed by vitamin D because it has a sequence.
我发表的一些作品假设它实际上可能被维生素 D 抑制，因为它有一个序列。
The sequence itself, this 12 nucleotide sequence, can determine to some degree whether it's going to be activated or turned off.
序列本身，即 12 个核苷酸序列，可以在某种程度上决定它是否将被激活或关闭。
And so I was able to kind of look at that and think, oh, maybe this and that.
所以我能够看到这个并思考，哦，也许这个那个。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
Since then there have been some groups that have confirmed more with in vivo and or in vitro studies.
从那时起，一些研究小组通过体内和/或体外研究证实了这一点。
Mine was all in silico and all that stuff.
我的全是电脑模拟之类的东西。
But anyways, so serotonin, a really important one, but most people, I mean this is regulating our immune cell, immune system.
但无论如何，血清素是一种非常重要的物质，但对大多数人来说，我的意思是它正在调节我们的免疫细胞、免疫系统。
It's regulating our blood pressure, all that, that's water retention.
它调节我们的血压，所有这些，就是水潴留。
I mean bone, of course, homeostasis 5% more than 5%.
我指的是骨骼，当然稳态5%超过5%。
I mean I can't tell you, like, so much.
我的意思是我不能告诉你那么多。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And with 70% of the U.S. population deficient, I'm beginning to think that this could be the linchpin on a number of really important issues.
鉴于 70% 的美国人口缺乏营养，我开始认为这可能是许多真正重要问题的关键。
Supplementing vitamin D3 is what I normally hear is the ...
我通常听到的补充维生素D3是...
And that's, I do.
那就是，我愿意。
I think I end up taking 5,000 IUs, sometimes 10 IUs of vitamin D3 per day.
我想我最终会每天服用 5,000 个国际单位，有时甚至 10 个国际单位的维生素 D3。
Just done that for a long time.
刚刚做了很长时间。
And I've had my levels tested and they're in range.
我已经测试了我的水平，它们在范围内。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But I have a family member, I'll just mention this, I have a family member who was not feeling well, just kind of feeling off, a little low, had some digestive issues.
但我有一个家庭成员，我只想提一下，我有一个家庭成员感觉不舒服，只是感觉不舒服，有点低落，有一些消化问题。
This went on a long period of time.
这种情况持续了很长一段时间。
Was taking, on my recommendation, 15,000 IUs of D3 and was still deficient in D3.
根据我的建议，他服用了 15,000 个国际单位的 D3，但仍然缺乏 D3。
Now takes, — and I'm not suggesting anyone do this, it's a special case perhaps, but no chronic illness that we're aware of — needs to take 30,000 IUs per day in order to bring their D3 range just into normal.
现在，我并不是建议任何人这样做，这可能是一个特殊情况，但我们知道没有慢性疾病，需要每天服用 30,000 个国际单位才能使他们的 D3 范围恢复正常。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Which is, to me, it's striking because they eat quite well, they're a healthy weight, et cetera.
对我来说，这是惊人的，因为他们吃得很好，体重健康等等。
And it's made a tremendous difference in terms of their mood.
这对他们的情绪产生了巨大的影响。
Now of course it's correlative, now they feel better they're doing it.
现在当然这是相关的，现在他们感觉更好了。
Who knows, They're probably also getting outside more.
谁知道呢，他们可能也更多地外出了。
But, I mean, I think people need to get tested.
但是，我的意思是，我认为人们需要接受测试。
They need to get their D3 levels tested.
他们需要测试 D3 水平。
But where and what is a good starting range for people to think about D3 supplementation and, again, foods that can increase D3?
但是，人们考虑补充 D3 以及可以增加 D3 的食物的良好起始范围在哪里？
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
So vitamin D3 is a good way to supplement with it.
所以补充维生素D3是一个很好的方法。
There, vitamin D2 would be a plant source.
在那里，维生素 D2 将是植物来源。
You often find it fortified in foods like milk, it's usually D2.
您经常会发现它在牛奶等食物中得到强化，通常是 D2。
There's been a few.
已经有几个了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Does anyone still drink milk besides kids?
除了孩子还有人喝牛奶吗？
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
People, I mean-
人们，我的意思是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Out here it's like you can't find cow's milk.
在这里就像你找不到牛奶一样。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
Oat milk.
燕麦奶。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You get oat milk, oat milk, soy milk.
你可以得到燕麦奶、燕麦奶、豆奶。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
I mean all the lattes that you're getting.
我的意思是你得到的所有拿铁咖啡。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What's the other one?
另一件是什么？
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
Yeah.
是的。
They're fortified in those as well.
他们在这些方面也得到了加强。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Oh they are, okay.
哦，他们是，好吧。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
They are, yeah.
他们是，是的。
They're fortified in almond milk.
它们在杏仁奶中强化。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I have a hard time finding cow's milk.
我很难找到牛奶。
Okay.
好的。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
And oat milk and all that stuff.
还有燕麦奶和所有这些东西。
Yeah, they're in all that stuff.
是的，它们就在所有这些东西中。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
Vitamin D is naturally to some degree in fatty fish.
维生素 D 在某种程度上天然存在于多脂鱼类中。
You know, you think about cod liver oil, right?
你知道，你会想到鱼肝油，对吗？
It's like it has vitamin D, but it's not, you're not going to correct a deficiency with eating fish for your vitamin D.
就像它含有维生素 D，但事实并非如此，吃鱼并不能弥补维生素 D 的缺乏。
You're either going to correct it with sun exposure, being in the right area, having the right amount of sun and being the right age.
你要么通过阳光照射、处于正确的区域、接受适当的阳光照射并处于适当的年龄来纠正它。
Because as you get old you become very inefficient at doing that, converting vitamin D, making vitamin D3 in your skin.
因为随着年龄的增长，您在转化维生素 D、在皮肤中制造维生素 D3 方面的效率会变得非常低。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well that's probably what was going on here.
嗯，这可能就是这里发生的事情。
Cause this person is getting up in their age.
因为这个人已经到了他们的年龄。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
There's a lot of single nucleotide polymorphisms ...
有很多单核苷酸多态性...
We talked about APOE4 previously, but there's a variety of genes that people have.
我们之前讨论过 APOE4，但人们拥有多种基因。
Very common actually.
其实很常见。
In fact, I've had many people that have done that exact same thing.
事实上，我身边有很多人也做过同样的事情。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
Measuring your vitamin D levels before and after supplementation is the only way you're going to figure that out.
测量补充剂前后的维生素 D 水平是了解这一点的唯一方法。
Very important.
非常重要。
If you don't measure it, you don't know, you can't know what you don't measure.
如果你不测量它，你就不知道，你无法知道你不测量的东西。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
There's a variety of SNPs that basically make that conversion inefficient.
有多种 SNP 基本上会导致转换效率低下。
And in fact, there've been a lot of these Mendelian randomization studies.
事实上，已经有很多孟德尔随机化研究。
These are studies where people, scientists, will look at common SNPs, people that have these common variations of a gene that's a little more than 1% of the population.
在这些研究中，人们、科学家会观察常见的 SNP，拥有这些常见基因变异的人只占总人口的 1% 多一点。
So it's not a random mutation, it's actually found in a sizable percent of the population.
所以这不是随机突变，它实际上存在于相当大比例的人口中。
And then they've looked at various outcomes, and a lot of times they'll look at genes that are also involved in some kind of lifestyle factors.
然后他们研究了各种结果，很多时候他们会研究也与某种生活方式因素有关的基因。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
So, vitamin D and SNPs that basically make the conversion of vitamin, either vitamin D precursor into D3, or in D3 into 25 hydroxyvitamin D or into the active steroid hormone, which is 125 hydroxyvitamin D.
因此，维生素 D 和 SNP 基本上将维生素 D 前体转化为 D3，或者将 D3 转化为 25 羟基维生素 D，或转化为活性类固醇激素，即 125 羟基维生素 D。
And there's a variety of different SNPs that show people ...
还有各种不同的 SNP 向人们展示......
So, you're not looking at vitamin D levels at all.
所以，您根本没有关注维生素 D 水平。
You're looking at just the SNPs, and if they have it, they have low vitamin D.
您只查看 SNP，如果有，则维生素 D 含量较低。
Okay?
好吧？
So it's really a way of doing a beautifully randomized controlled trial with an observational study because you're not biased.
因此，这确实是一种通过观察性研究进行精美的随机对照试验的方法，因为你没有偏见。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
Vitamin D levels are also associated with health.
维生素 D 水平也与健康相关。
People that have higher vitamin D are either outside more, they're more physically active or they're aware of their health and they're supplementing.
维生素 D 含量较高的人要么更多地户外活动，要么更活跃，要么意识到自己的健康状况并正在补充维生素 D。
So you always have to worry about that when you're doing an observational study.
因此，当您进行观察性研究时，您总是必须担心这一点。
But when dealing in randomization, its beautiful for that reason where you now just, random, people randomly have these genes and it's not like there's no health status.
但在处理随机化时，它很美妙，因为你现在只是随机的，人们随机拥有这些基因，而且并不意味着没有健康状况。
If you have the SNP like your friend, your family member was healthy and all that, they were healthy and yet they couldn't get their D levels up.
如果您像您的朋友一样拥有 SNP，那么您的家人很健康，而且他们很健康，但他们的 D 水平却无法提高。
Right?
正确的？
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
So these Mendelian randomization studies have found that people that can't convert into the precursor, the 25 hydroxyvitamin D, which is usually what's measured, it's the most stable form of vitamin D in the body, they have a higher all-cause mortality, if they can't do it.
因此，这些孟德尔随机化研究发现，无法转化为前体 25 羟基维生素 D（通常是测量的）的人，它是体内最稳定的维生素 D 形式，如果不能转化为维生素 D，他们的全因死亡率就会更高。
So people that don't have it have a lower all-cause mortality.
因此，没有这种疾病的人的全因死亡率较低。
They have a higher respiratory-related mortality, they have a higher cancer-related mortality.
他们与呼吸系统相关的死亡率较高，与癌症相关的死亡率也较高。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
So, to me ...
所以，对我来说...
Now why did I get on this rant?
现在我为什么要发这样的咆哮呢？
Oh, because your family member.
哦，因为你的家人。
So basically they also are more likely to get multiple sclerosis.
所以基本上他们也更有可能患上多发性硬化症。
This has all been done with Mendelian randomization.
这一切都是通过孟德尔随机化完成的。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
So, it really does hammer home the importance of measuring your vitamin D levels and being very proactive about that.
因此，它确实强调了测量维生素 D 水平并积极主动地测量维生素 D 水平的重要性。
I mean you can get it done anywhere.
我的意思是你可以在任何地方完成它。
Your doctor will do it, if you ask him to do it.
如果您要求您的医生这样做，他就会这样做。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
Supplementation wise, typically if you don't have one of those SNPs, for the most part, taking 1000 IUs of vitamin D will raise blood levels by around five nanograms per milliliter.
就补充而言，通常如果您没有其中一种 SNP，那么在大多数情况下，服用 1000 个国际单位的维生素 D 将使血液水平提高约每毫升 5 纳克。
So let's say you're deficient, you're 20 nanograms per milliliter and you want to get to 40, you're going to need at least 4,000 IUs if you're normal, don't have any of these SNPs that change your metabolism of vitamin D.
假设您缺乏维生素 D，您的维生素 D 含量为每毫升 20 纳克，而您想要达到 40 纳克，那么您将需要至少 4,000 个国际单位（如果您身体正常，没有任何会改变维生素 D 代谢的 SNP）。
Right?
对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Does it matter when you take it relative to sun exposure, time of day, with or without food?
相对于阳光照射、一天中的时间、有或没有食物，服用它的时间有关系吗？
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
I've seen some not-so-great preliminary evidence suggesting maybe time of day is important.
我看到一些不太好的初步证据表明一天中的时间可能很重要。
I don't think it real ...
我不认为这是真的...
I can't seem to find anything that really suggests ...
我似乎找不到任何真正暗示的东西......
Because for it to actually be converted into the hormone, I mean it's stored in fat.
因为它实际上转化为激素，我的意思是它储存在脂肪中。
It's like-
这就像——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's slow acting.
动作很慢啊
The steroid hormones are slow acting.
类固醇激素作用缓慢。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
Yeah, it's not like an immediate thing.
是的，这不是立竿见影的事情。
Right.
正确的。
So, maybe we'll get some new data that's otherwise, but I just don't ...
所以，也许我们会得到一些新的数据，但我只是不......
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It simplifies the problem anyway.
无论如何，它简化了问题。
So for people who are going to be stubborn and not get their D3 levels tested, or their D levels tested, and simply say, "Oh I'll just take some D3." That was me, by the way, until I got tested.
因此，对于那些固执地不测试 D3 水平或不测试 D 水平的人，只需说“哦，我就服用一些 D3”。顺便说一句，在我接受测试之前，这就是我。
I threw 5,000 IUs into the mix and figured, well, it's not going to kill me, it'll bring my vitamin D levels up.
我在混合物中加入了 5,000 个国际单位，心想，这不会要了我的命，它会提高我的维生素 D 水平。
And I realize that's a bit of a coarse way to approach it, but I feel fine and I'm still breathing and ambulatory.
我意识到这样的处理方式有点粗暴，但我感觉很好，而且我仍在呼吸和行走。
So is that reasonable?
那么这样合理吗？
1,000 to 5,000 IUs for most people will be reasonably safe.
对于大多数人来说，1,000 至 5,000 个国际单位是相当安全的。
Again, we're not making, just assuming that people are going to just jump to it without the blood test.
再说一次，我们不是在做，只是假设人们会在不进行血液测试的情况下直接跳到它。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
Of course.
当然。
I think that if we look at the literature, the scientific literature, it is extremely hard to get hypercalcemia, which would be the major concern with really high levels of vitamin D3 supplementation.
我认为，如果我们查看文献、科学文献，就会发现高钙血症是极其困难的，而高钙血症是补充高水平维生素 D3 的主要问题。
I mean we're talking hundreds of thousands of IU a day for a long time.
我的意思是，很长一段时间以来，我们每天都在谈论数十万国际单位。
So-
所以——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hundreds of thousands.
数十万。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
Yes.
是的。
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Okay.
好的。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
Now the upper tolerable intake was set by the medicine institute to be 4,000.
现在医学研究所规定的耐受摄入量上限是4000。
It was just the safe, it was kind of one of those things where it's safe.
这只是保险箱，它是安全的东西之一。
I personally take 5,000 IUs a day as well.
我个人每天也服用 5,000 IU。
And my levels really hover around 50 nanograms per mil.
我的水平确实徘徊在每密耳 50 纳克左右。
And I do out ...
我这样做...
I don't put sunscreen on all the time.
我不会一直涂防晒霜。
I do put on my face and I wear a hat, but some of my skin is being exposed.
我确实戴上了帽子，但我的一些皮肤暴露在外。
So I do make it from the sun as well.
所以我也是用太阳做的。
But-
但是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm glad you brought up the fact that you keep arms exposed if you, because in these studies that I mentioned before, looking at sun exposure on skin and increases in other hormones, testosterone, estrogen mainly, it became clear from looking at those data that the amount of skin that you expose is important.
我很高兴你提到了如果你保持手臂暴露的事实，因为在我之前提到的这些研究中，观察皮肤上的阳光照射和其他激素（主要是睾酮、雌激素）的增加，从这些数据中可以清楚地看出，你暴露的皮肤数量很重要。
Which makes perfect sense once you hear that.
一旦你听到这个，就完全有道理了。
But I think most people are thinking, "Oh, I'm out in the sun," but are you wearing shorts and a T-shirt, or are you wearing a sweatshirt and it's a hoodie?
但我想大多数人都会想，“哦，我在阳光下”，但是你是穿着短裤和 T 恤，还是穿着运动衫和连帽衫？
Or are you all covered up out in the sun?
或者你们都被遮盖在阳光下了吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well that might be great for setting your circadian rhythm by way of light to through the eyes because that's the primary mechanism for that.
嗯，这可能非常适合通过眼睛通过光线来设置您的昼夜节律，因为这是其主要机制。
But seems to me that the more of your body surface that you can safely and appropriately, please folks, appropriately expose to the sun, the more vitamin D you're going to create.
但在我看来，请各位朋友，您能够安全、适当地、适当地暴露在阳光下的身体表面越多，您就会产生越多的维生素 D。
Right?
正确的？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So, laying out on your back deck in shorts and a T-shirt with arms exposed and legs exposed is a very different stimulus than walking around in jeans and a sweatshirt.
因此，穿着短裤和 T 恤躺在后甲板上，露出手臂和腿，与穿着牛仔裤和运动衫四处走动是一种非常不同的刺激。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Okay.
好的。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Especially if you have sunscreen on your face.
特别是如果你脸上涂了防晒霜。
I know it almost seems like trivially simple, but I'm not sure that people are used to thinking about their skin as an interface to create these hormones.
我知道这看起来似乎非常简单，但我不确定人们是否习惯于将皮肤视为产生这些激素的界面。
So surface area matters.
所以表面积很重要。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
And by the way, there have been studies looking at people that are deficient in vitamin D.
顺便说一下，有一些研究针对的是缺乏维生素 D 的人。
In this case it was African Americans that were given a 4,000 IU a day vitamin D supplement to bring them back to sufficient levels.
在这个案例中，非洲裔美国人每天补充 4,000 国际单位的维生素 D，以使其恢复到足够的水平。
This was a smaller study than I would like, but it reversed their epigenetic aging by three years because again, it's a hormone.
这是一项规模比我想象的要小的研究，但它使它们的表观遗传衰老逆转了三年，因为它又是一种激素。
It's regulating more than 5% of your protein encoding human genome.
它调节超过 5% 的人类基因组蛋白质编码。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
There's been studies looking at vitamin D receptor knockout mice ...
有研究针对维生素 D 受体敲除小鼠......
And I use this a lot in my presentations when I'm talking about vitamin D and longevity.
当我谈论维生素 D 和长寿时，我在演讲中经常使用这一点。
But if you look at these animals, the vitamin D receptor ...
但如果你观察这些动物，就会发现维生素 D 受体......
As I mentioned earlier, vitamin D binds to the receptor and then it complexes with the retinoid receptor, and they go into the nucleus as a complex and you turn on and turn off genes.
正如我之前提到的，维生素 D 与受体结合，然后与类视黄醇受体形成复合物，它们作为复合物进入细胞核，然后打开和关闭基因。
Well, if you get rid of that receptor, which is what you can do in animal studies, you can determine what effects there will be with no vitamin D.
好吧，如果你去掉那个受体（这就是你在动物研究中可以做的），你就可以确定没有维生素 D 会产生什么影响。
Right?
对吗？
How do you study no vitamin D?
没有维生素D怎么研究？
What was found was that these animals, and in fact I don't think it was a complete knockout or 'cause I think it might be embryonic lethal, but-
结果发现，这些动物，事实上我不认为这是完全的淘汰，或者因为我认为它可能是胚胎致死的，但是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Some hypomorphic ...
一些亚形...
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Which is basically geek speak for a gene is vastly reduced in its number and function.
这基本上是极客所说的，基因的数量和功能大大减少。
Number.
数字。
People know what I mean, but isn't eliminated completely.
人们知道我的意思，但并没有完全消除。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
Yeah, right.
是的，对。
Well these animals, if you look at them after the age of four months, I mean the mice look like, I mean they're accelerated aging, they're wrinkled, they have no hair.
好吧，这些动物，如果你在四个月大后观察它们，我的意思是老鼠看起来像，我的意思是它们加速衰老，它们有皱纹，它们没有毛发。
I mean their life lifespan's shorter.
我的意思是他们的寿命更短。
I mean you can look at this animal and not know anything about mice or work with them and be like, that animal looks like it's, of course mice life spans are only like two and a half years, but like 500 years old.
我的意思是，你可以看着这种动物，但对老鼠一无所知，或者与它们一起工作，然后就会想，这种动物看起来就像是的，当然，老鼠的寿命只有两年半，但大约有 500 岁。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Looks like it went to graduate school twice.
看来是读过两次研究生了。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Actually graduate school's a lot of fun.
其实研究生院很有趣。
I like to think I age backwards in graduate school, which is not true.
我喜欢认为我在读研究生时年龄倒退了，但事实并非如此。
I look at the photos, I definitely aged forward.
我看照片，我确实老了。
You, on the other hand, look exactly the same way you did 10 years ago.
另一方面，你看起来和十年前一模一样。
I'm not saying that to flatter you, but it's absolutely true.
我这么说并不是为了奉承你，但这绝对是真的。
I mean the data, it's remarkable.
我的意思是数据，这是非常了不起的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think it's, I'm definitely going to try and get my omega-3 percentage up there.
我想，我肯定会努力提高我的 omega-3 百分比。
I'm not going to hinge it all on that.
我不会把一切都取决于此。
But clearly you're doing a lot of things right.
但显然你做的很多事情都是正确的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
If I'm taking vitamin D3, I still need to get out into the sun.
如果我正在服用维生素 D3，我仍然需要出去晒太阳。
Correct?
正确的？
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
I think a lot of people don't know that, or at least I have family members that have been a little bit resistant.
我想很多人不知道这一点，或者至少我的家人有些抵触。
It's like, "I take my vitamin D so I don't need to get outside as much."
就像，“我服用维生素 D，这样我就不需要经常出门了。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think people are really afraid of getting out into the sun because they're worried about melanomas.
我认为人们真的害怕暴露在阳光下，因为他们担心黑色素瘤。
And I'm as, to be honest, I'm as scared of sunscreen as I am of melanoma.
说实话，我对防晒霜的恐惧就像对黑色素瘤的恐惧一样。
Like that, some of the things in sunscreen are really spooky, mainly the compound.
就是这样，防晒霜里的一些东西确实很诡异，主要是化合物。
And, here, I'm not one of these conspiracy ...
而且，在这里，我不是这些阴谋的一员......
I drink tap water, listen folks.
我喝自来水，听听各位。
People cringe with ...
人们畏缩着...
I drink tap water, I have the occasional croissant or donut.
我喝自来水，偶尔吃羊角面包或甜甜圈。
I'm not, you know, I'm 90%, 80% of the time I'm doing the right things the right way, I think, although I'm now going to improve on them with this new knowledge.
我想，你知道，我 90%、80% 的时间都在以正确的方式做正确的事情，尽管我现在要利用这些新知识来改进它们。
But I don't like what I see in most sunscreens because if you look at these compounds, they cross the blood-brain barrier.
但我不喜欢大多数防晒霜中的成分，因为如果你观察这些化合物，就会发现它们会穿过血脑屏障。
I don't want compounds crossing the blood-brain barrier.
我不希望化合物穿过血脑屏障。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
Titanium dioxide?
二氧化钛？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Dioxide, some of the triclosans that are also in these cleansers.
二氧化物，这些清洁剂中也含有一些三氯生。
I mean it's once you know a little bit about neurons folks, you realize that the neurons you got are basically the ones you've got for your entire life.
我的意思是，一旦你对神经元有了一点了解，你就会意识到你所拥有的神经元基本上是你一生所拥有的。
There's a reason why there's a blood-brain barrier, a blood ovary and a blood testes barrier, is because the genetic material resides in the testes, the ovaries and the brain.
血脑屏障、血卵巢和血睾丸屏障之所以存在，是因为遗传物质存在于睾丸、卵巢和大脑中。
Those neurons don't turn over.
这些神经元不会翻转。
There are a few new neurons, but not that many unless you're a mouse, frankly.
坦率地说，有一些新的神经元，但除非你是一只老鼠，否则不会有那么多。
And so protecting those is very key.
因此，保护这些非常关键。
And a lot of the things in sunscreen are downright dangerous.
防晒霜中的很多成分都是非常危险的。
So I think there are sunscreens that are safe, but it's very hard to figure out which sunscreens are free of these compounds.
所以我认为有些防晒霜是安全的，但很难找出哪些防晒霜不含这些化合物。
I'm amazed that they're still on the market, frankly.
坦率地说，我很惊讶它们仍然在市场上。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
I've always geared towards the ones with the minerals that are reflecting.
我一直倾向于那些具有反射矿物质的产品。
It is somewhat difficult to penetrate things all the way through the skin into the, get into the bloodstream.
将东西从皮肤渗透到血液中有点困难。
I don't, but I don't know, maybe some of these compounds get in there easily.
我不知道，但我不知道，也许其中一些化合物很容易进入那里。
I have seen the evidence with some of those things.
我已经看到了其中一些事情的证据。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They go, there is some evidence they go transdermal and they, you know, they get in.
他们走了，有一些证据表明他们是透皮的，他们，你知道，他们进入了。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
They get in?
他们进来了？
Okay, well I know that they're, some of them react with the sun and while they do protect from the UVA and/or B, they form massive reactive oxygen species and carcinogen.
好吧，我知道它们中的一些会与太阳发生反应，虽然它们确实可以防止 UVA 和/或 B 的伤害，但它们会形成大量的活性氧和致癌物质。
I mean it's the very thing you're trying to protect yourself from might actually cause.
我的意思是，这正是你试图保护自己免受实际可能导致的事情的影响。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
We don't know.
我们不知道。
I mean it's completely speculation.
我的意思是这完全是猜测。
But there is, I think, some more and more evidence coming out with some of those compounds.
但我认为，越来越多的证据表明其中一些化合物。
And I can't remember all of them off the top of my head.
我一时记不起所有这些。
But a lot of high-end ones also have, it's the chemical sunscreen ones.
但是很多高端的也有，就是化学防晒霜。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
The chemical ones.
化学的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
We should do, I'm proposing that we do a journal club.
我们应该这样做，我建议我们成立一个期刊俱乐部。
A journal club folks, is where academics get together and read papers and they get together and they pick apart the papers.
期刊俱乐部是学者们聚集在一起阅读论文的地方，他们聚集在一起并拆解论文。
There's a strong correlation between being an early graduate student and being the most critical.
成为一名早期研究生和成为最挑剔的人之间存在着很强的相关性。
Because once you've actually published some papers, you realize that most studies people are doing their best within the context of what they can do.
因为一旦你真正发表了一些论文，你就会意识到大多数研究人员都在他们能做的范围内尽力而为。
But it'd be great to do a journal club at some point about sunscreens, because I'd love to really figure out what's in these compounds.
但在某个时候举办一个有关防晒霜的期刊俱乐部会很棒，因为我很想真正弄清楚这些化合物中含有什么。
I mean people are using them like crazy.
我的意思是人们疯狂地使用它们。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm not one of these people who's like, "Oh.
我不是那些会说“哦。
I won't use commercial toothpaste," or anything like that.
我不会使用商业牙膏，”或类似的东西。
Like I said, I drink tap water, I use commercial toothpaste, whatever.
就像我说的，我喝自来水，我使用商业牙膏，等等。
But when it comes to sunscreen, it freaks me out because some of these compounds do go transdermal and some of them cross the blood-brain barrier, and I'd like to keep my neurons free of that stuff.
但说到防晒霜，它让我感到害怕，因为其中一些化合物确实可以透皮，其中一些可以穿过血脑屏障，我想让我的神经元远离这些东西。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Anyway, we're speculating now.
无论如何，我们现在正在猜测。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
Wear a hat.
戴帽子。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wear a hat.
戴帽子。
But get out in the sun and get your D3 levels up.
但是，到阳光下晒晒太阳，提高 D3 水平。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay, so we've talked about these plant-based compounds, the omega-3s and D3, unless there's something else that you just absolutely must throw into the mix, I probably will return us to the conversation that I opened up with, which is about cold and heat, which admittedly I pulled us off that path, so I take full responsibility for that.
好的，我们已经讨论了这些植物性化合物，omega-3 和 D3，除非您绝对必须添加其他东西，否则我可能会让我们回到我开始的对话，这是关于冷和热的，诚然，我把我们拉出了这条路，所以我对此承担全部责任。
But before I do that, I just want to offer you the opportunity, is there anything that ...
但在此之前，我只是想给你提供一个机会，有什么...
to supplement-based or food-based compounds that you think are especially useful for brain and or body health?
您认为对大脑和/或身体健康特别有用的补充剂或食品化合物？
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
I do think magnesium is important in there as well.
我确实认为镁在那里也很重要。
I mean, I think again, about 40% of the U.S. population doesn't get enough magnesium.
我的意思是，我再次想到，大约 40% 的美国人没有摄入足够的镁。
It's an essential mineral we're supposed to be getting from our diet.
它是我们应该从饮食中获取的必需矿物质。
And-
还有——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's involved in everything.
它涉及一切。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
It is.
是的。
It's also involved in vitamin D metabolism, and in fact being deficient in magnesium may make it more difficult for you to actually make vitamin D hormone.
它还参与维生素 D 代谢，事实上，缺乏镁可能会使您更难真正生成维生素 D 激素。
So that 125 hydroxyvitamin D.
从而得到125羟基维生素D。
So one of those other factors, again talking, we talked about genetics, but there's also magnesium status as well, considering 40%, that's a big number.
因此，其他因素之一，我们再次讨论，我们讨论了遗传，但也有镁的状况，考虑到 40%，这是一个很大的数字。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
Now, magnesium's also involved in making ATP, the energetic currency of our cells.
现在，镁还参与制造 ATP（我们细胞的能量货币）。
Basically all of our cells need ATP to do anything.
基本上我们所有的细胞都需要 ATP 来做任何事情。
And it's also involved in utilizing ATP as well as DNA repair enzymes.
它还参与利用 ATP 以及 DNA 修复酶。
These are enzymes that are involved in repairing damage to our DNA.
这些酶参与修复 DNA 损伤。
I personally think that magnesium insufficiency is an insidious type, causes an insidious type of damage daily that you can't look in the mirror and see.
我个人认为镁缺乏是一种潜在的类型，每天都会造成一种你无法照镜子看到的潜在伤害。
Like, when you're deficient in vitamin C, you're like, my gums are falling apart, I have scurvy.
就像，当你缺乏维生素 C 时，你会说，我的牙龈正在崩溃，我患有坏血病。
Right?
正确的？
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
But you can't see DNA damage, you can't see it, but it's happening.
但你看不到 DNA 损伤，你看不到它，但它正在发生。
It's happening right now in my body.
它现在就发生在我的身体里。
It's happening in your body.
它发生在你的身体里。
It's happening, normal metabolism is happening every day.
它正在发生，正常的新陈代谢每天都在发生。
But we repair that damage.
但我们会修复损坏。
We have repair enzymes in our body called DNA repair enzymes.
我们体内有修复酶，称为DNA修复酶。
They require magnesium.
他们需要镁。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
Magnesium is a cofactor for them.
镁是它们的辅助因子。
What that means is a cofactor means enzymes need it to function properly.
这意味着辅因子意味着酶需要它才能正常发挥作用。
And so without that cofactor, they're not doing it properly.
因此，如果没有这个辅助因子，他们就无法正确地做到这一点。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
The way I like to think about magnesium, it's easy to, because people go, "What food should I eat?" Right?
我喜欢思考镁的方式，这很容易，因为人们会问，“我应该吃什么食物？”正确的？
Naturally.
自然。
That's the next question.
这是下一个问题。
Well, magnesium is at the center of a chlorophyll molecule.
嗯，镁位于叶绿素分子的中心。
Chlorophyll is what gives plants their green color.
叶绿素赋予植物绿色。
So dark leafy greens are high in magnesium.
因此，深色绿叶蔬菜的镁含量很高。
It's one of the ...
这是其中之一...
And people, basically, what is the 40% insufficiency in the U.S. tell us?
基本上，美国 40% 的不足告诉我们什么？
People aren't eating their greens, they're not eating their greens.
人们不吃他们的蔬菜，他们不吃他们的蔬菜。
They're eating their packaged food, they're eating their processed food.
他们正在吃包装食品，他们正在吃加工食品。
Standard American diet isn't really high in dark leafy greens.
标准的美国饮食中深色绿叶蔬菜的含量并不高。
So dark leafy greens are how I like to get my magnesium.
所以深色绿叶蔬菜是我获取镁的方式。
I think it comes along with all these other important, I mean you get calcium in them, you get vitamin K1, you're getting a lot of other micronutrients, and you're getting other compounds that we don't know about.
我认为它与所有其他重要的元素一起出现，我的意思是你可以从它们中获取钙、维生素 K1、许多其他微量营养素，以及我们不知道的其他化合物。
And ones that we know about, like sulforaphane.
还有我们所知道的，例如萝卜硫素。
Right?
正确的？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
As with broccoli, do I need to eat the dark leafy greens raw?
和西兰花一样，我需要生吃深色绿叶蔬菜吗？
And in this case, I'm a little more open to it because I actually like the taste of, dare I say kale, and kale's a dark leafy green.
在这种情况下，我对它更加开放，因为我实际上喜欢羽衣甘蓝的味道，我敢说羽衣甘蓝是深绿叶的。
Right?
正确的？
It's obviously, I'm not-
很明显，我不是——
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
Yes.
是的。
It's high in lutein and zeaxanthin, as well.
它的叶黄素和玉米黄质含量也很高。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, I'm going to try chromat ...
不，我要尝试一下染色...
meaning I'm not colorblind, but I just want to make sure it falls under the strict category.
这意味着我不是色盲，但我只是想确保它属于严格的类别。
Yes.
是的。
Cause every once in a while I'm like, "Oh, I eat my vegetables.
因为每隔一段时间我就会想，“哦，我吃蔬菜。
I like avocados." And people remind me avocado's not a vegetable.
我喜欢鳄梨。”人们提醒我鳄梨不是蔬菜。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I love vegetables also, but so kale, what are some other examples?
我也喜欢蔬菜，但是羽衣甘蓝，还有其他例子吗？
And-
还有——
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
Kale, spinach, chard, like Swiss chard, Rainbow chard, Romaine lettuce.
羽衣甘蓝、菠菜、甜菜，如瑞士甜菜、彩虹甜菜、罗马生菜。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is the bitterness an important component to this?
苦味是其中的重要组成部分吗？
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
For magnesium, no. But for sulforaphane, for cruciferous vegetables.
对于镁来说，没有。但对于萝卜硫素，对于十字花科蔬菜。
That would be the brassica family.
那就是芸苔科。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
...
...
vegetables.
蔬菜。
That would be the Brassica family.
那就是芸苔科。
But your question about cooking them, so magnesium, it is bound to the food matrix and it can be somewhat less bioavailable.
但是你关于烹饪它们的问题，所以镁，它与食物基质结合在一起，并且它的生物利用度可能会稍低。
So cooking it can somewhat release the magnesium, but it goes into the water too.
因此，烹饪可以稍微释放镁，但它也会进入水中。
So you have to either steam it or get your water in.
所以你必须要么蒸它要么把水放进去。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You drink the ...
你喝...
No drink.
没有喝酒。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
Yeah.
是的。
I personally don't worry about it.
我个人并不担心。
I just don't worry.
我只是不担心。
I think-
我认为——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay, great.
好的，太好了。
Well, if you don't worry, I'm not going to worry.
好吧，如果你不担心，我就不会担心。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
But I too supplement with magnesium ...
但我也补充镁...
I do take a round of ...
我确实需要一轮...
So supplementation with magnesium, I mean, we could go on and on.
所以补充镁，我的意思是，我们可以继续下去。
Let's keep this short and sweet because we're going to get back to the other stuff.
让我们保持简短，因为我们将回到其他内容。
But it can cause GI distress at high doses.
但高剂量时会导致胃肠道不适。
I personally like to take around 130 or 135 milligrams.
我个人喜欢服用 130 或 135 毫克左右。
That way, it's not like a huge bolus to my gut.
这样一来，我的肠道就不再需要大量的药物了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But I think it depends on the form of magnesium too.
但我认为这也取决于镁的形式。
Right?
对吗？
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
Yes.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
I mean, you can take magnesium threonate, for example, and it isn't as effect ...
我的意思是，例如，您可以服用苏糖酸镁，但效果不佳......
It doesn't affect the gut as much.
它对肠道的影响不大。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Magnesium citrate-
柠檬酸镁-
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
Citrate is what I take.
我服用的是柠檬酸盐。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is the pretty-
是不是很漂亮-
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
I take-
我认为——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
is pretty potent gut stimulus.
是非常有效的肠道刺激。
I mean, I feel like it's a little bit harder to take that.
我的意思是，我觉得有点难以接受。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
Well, I take a hundred ...
嗯，我拿一百...
135 milligrams should be pretty good.
135毫克应该不错了。
And citrate actually ...
柠檬酸盐实际上...
Oh boy.
噢，孩子。
Do we want to go here?
我们想去这里吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sure.
当然。
I mean, it's up to you and we don't have to ...
我的意思是，这取决于你，我们不必...
Personally, I've been supplementing with magnesium for a long time.
就我个人而言，我已经补充镁很长时间了。
I use threonate and bisglycinate and malate for different reasons.
我出于不同的原因使用苏糖酸盐、双甘氨酸盐和苹果酸盐。
So yes, I would love to go there if you're willing.
所以，是的，如果你愿意的话，我很想去那里。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
I would say malate would be the best.
我想说苹果酸是最好的。
And that has to do with the short chain fatty acids being good for the gut, and a lot of work done by a former colleague of mine and good friend, Mark Shigenaga, showing that the short chain citrate, malate, lactate, but specifically malate, really, and lactate are the major ones that get into the gut epithelial cells and are an energy source for the mitochondria and the goblet cells.
这与短链脂肪酸对肠道有益有关，我的前同事兼好朋友 Mark Shigenaga 所做的大量工作表明，短链柠檬酸、苹果酸、乳酸，特别是苹果酸和乳酸是进入肠道上皮细胞的主要脂肪酸，是线粒体和杯状细胞的能量来源。
So anyways, whole other topic.
无论如何，这是另一个话题。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's okay.
没关系。
Yeah, I take malate because I was told that it would be helpful.
是的，我服用苹果酸，因为有人告诉我这会有帮助。
First of all, it doesn't make me sleepy like some of the other forms of magnesium, which act as a mild sedative for me.
首先，它不会像其他一些形式的镁那样让我感到困倦，镁对我来说是一种温和的镇静剂。
They do tap into the GABAergic pathway, neurotransmitter folks, that, in general, broad sweeping generalization here, can have somewhat of a sedative quality, which is why I take magnesium threonate and/or bisglycinate before sleep, 30 to 60 minutes before sleep.
他们确实利用了 GABA 能途径，神经递质朋友们，一般来说，这里广泛概括，可以具有一定的镇静作用，这就是为什么我在睡前服用苏糖酸镁和/或双甘氨酸镁，睡前 30 至 60 分钟。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Definitely enhances my transition time to sleep and the depth of sleep, no question in my experience.
绝对可以延长我入睡的过渡时间和睡眠深度，根据我的经验，这是毫无疑问的。
There's some data that threonate can be neuroprotective.
有一些数据表明苏糖酸可以起到神经保护作用。
Although those studies are still ongoing.
尽管这些研究仍在进行中。
I'm getting the sense that maybe you're a little more skeptical of that than I am.
我感觉你可能比我更怀疑这一点。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
Yeah.
是的。
No, I've seen the studies with the threonate.
不，我看过有关苏糖酸盐的研究。
I think looking at the actual data from the one clinical study, there wasn't statistical significance until all three of the pieces of data were pulled together.
我认为从一项临床研究的实际数据来看，直到将所有三项数据汇总在一起才具有统计意义。
But that really could just be because their sample size was too small.
但这确实可能只是因为他们的样本量太小了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
Right?
对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
I'm thinking that paired with the ...
我认为与...配对
There's some work-
还有一些工作-
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
The animal steps.
动物的脚步。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hua-song Liu's work on ...
刘华松的作品...
So this is getting into inside ball of neuroscience, that the quality of the labs matters, folks.
所以这涉及到神经科学的内部领域，实验室的质量很重要，伙计们。
And that's something that's not accessible to people outside of fields.
这是领域外的人无法接触到的东西。
And Hua-song Liu and some of the other folks at that time at MIT did ...
刘华松和当时在麻省理工学院的其他一些人做到了……
I think very highly of their work.
我对他们的工作评价很高。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And so the animal studies are indeed just animal studies.
所以动物研究确实只是动物研究。
But I was pretty impressed by what they did in those studies, very pioneering when you think about this being done 10, 12, 15 years ago.
但他们在这些研究中所做的事情给我留下了深刻的印象，当你想到 10、12、15 年前所做的事情时，这些研究非常具有开创性。
And then, yes, we need more human clinical data.
然后，是的，我们需要更多的人类临床数据。
But for me, I figure that given the safety profile of mag threonate, given that it helps me sleep better and sleeping better is just better for everything, frankly, that's why I take it.
但对我来说，我认为考虑到苏糖酸镁的安全性，考虑到它可以帮助我睡得更好，而且睡得更好对一切都更好，坦率地说，这就是我服用它的原因。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And bisglycinate and threonate seem to be somewhat interchangeable.
双甘氨酸和苏糖酸盐似乎在某种程度上可以互换。
But I don't know of any reports that bisglycinate can be neuroprotective.
但我不知道有任何报道表明双甘氨酸具有神经保护作用。
But malate, I take during the daytime.
但是苹果酸，我在白天服用。
For me, and again, this is subjective, it has a tangible effect in improving the recovery time from exercise.
对我来说，这又是主观的，它对改善运动恢复时间有切实的效果。
So I don't know that I've been sore from a workout since I started taking malate, and I used to get very sore from even trivial workouts.
所以我不知道自从我开始服用苹果酸以来我是否因锻炼而感到酸痛，而且我曾经因为即使是微不足道的锻炼而感到非常酸痛。
So I don't know what's going on there, but I keep taking it.
所以我不知道那里发生了什么，但我继续接受它。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
Malate, again, the short chain fatty acid and, I mean, when you do heavy ...
苹果酸，再一次，短链脂肪酸，我的意思是，当你做重运动时......
When you do intense exercise, you release endotoxin from your gut.
当您进行剧烈运动时，您会从肠道中释放内毒素。
I'm just going back to the interesting work because the malate being the short chain fatty acid and Mark Shigenaga showing, this is all in animal research, by the way.
我只是回到有趣的工作，因为苹果酸是短链脂肪酸，马克·重永（Mark Shigenaga）表示，顺便说一句，这都是在动物研究中。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
But I mean, it was like feeding these animals malate.
但我的意思是，这就像给这些动物喂苹果酸一样。
I mean, it really protected the gut, endotoxin release and it affected metabolic syndrome and all sorts of things.
我的意思是，它确实保护了肠道、内毒素释放，并影响了代谢综合征和各种疾病。
But I think malate's awesome and I always try to eat green apples.
但我认为苹果酸很棒，而且我总是尝试吃青苹果。
They're really high in malic acid.
它们的苹果酸含量确实很高。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, good to know.
哦，很高兴知道。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
And tart cherries.
还有酸樱桃。
Tart cherries are really high in it as well.
酸樱桃的含量也很高。
So-
所以——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
They also tastes really good.
它们的味道也非常好。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
But I was really interested in the magnesium threonate stuff.
但我对苏糖酸镁的东西很感兴趣。
I take a supplement called Magnesi-Om by Moon Juice and it's like a little powder.
我服用 Moon Juice 生产的一种名为 Magnesi-Om 的补充剂，它就像一点粉末。
It's got a little bit of monk fruit but it tastes good.
虽然里面有一点罗汉果的味道，但是味道还是不错的。
So I do it a little bit before bedtime as well, probably several more hours though because I don't like to drink tons and tons of fluids before I go to bed.
所以我也会在睡前做一点，可能还要几个小时，因为我不喜欢在睡觉前喝大量的液体。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
And it has magnesium threonate and a variety of other versions of magnesium in it as well, and I really like it.
它含有苏糖酸镁和各种其他形式的镁，我真的很喜欢它。
But I thought the magnesium threonate stuff was super interesting.
但我认为苏糖酸镁的东西非常有趣。
I would love to see more clinical data as well.
我也很想看到更多的临床数据。
But I think once we get it, it'll probably be like, "Oh, yeah, it's getting into the brain and it's awesome." So why wait?
但我认为一旦我们得到它，它可能会像，“哦，是的，它进入了大脑，这太棒了。”那为什么还要等呢？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
And along those lines, I once put out a post that said, "I feel like there are a number of different categories of health information consumers online.
沿着这些思路，我曾经发表过一篇文章说：“我觉得网上有许多不同类别的健康信息消费者。
And understanding which one you're in for which topic can alleviate a lot of the strain and stress of finding the information," that there's some people that are perfectly comfortable with data from a mouse study.
了解您所在的主题可以减轻查找信息的大量压力，”有些人对小鼠研究的数据非常满意。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's like, "If it's done in mice, great, I'll try it." Other people say, "No, it has to be done in humans, double blind, placebo-controlled studies, randomized clinical trials, et cetera." Then other people are ...
就像，“如果在老鼠身上完成，那就太好了，我会尝试一下。”其他人说，“不，它必须在人类身上进行，双盲、安慰剂对照研究、随机临床试验等等。”那么其他人就...
just say, "You know what?
只需说：“你知道吗？
I don't even care about any of that.
我什至不关心这些。
Just tell me what you do." And then other people are saying, "You know what?
只要告诉我你做了什么。”然后其他人就会说：“你知道吗？
I don't even care what you do.
我什至不在乎你做什么。
Just tell me what to do."
只要告诉我该怎么做就可以了。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then there's this other category which are, if it's in pill form or powder form, they'll take it.
还有另一类，如果是药丸或粉末形式，他们就会服用。
And so I think a lot of the battles of people picking apart people's posts and things have to do with the fact that people don't realize that people are showing up to the table in one or some combination of those stances.
因此，我认为人们对人们的帖子和事情进行拆解的很多争斗都与这样一个事实有关：人们没有意识到人们是以一种或多种立场的组合出现在谈判桌前的。
We know people that will try anything and we know people that won't take anything.
我们知道有人会尝试任何事情，也有人不会接受任何事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So the idea here is to create an array of possibilities for people.
所以这里的想法是为人们创造一系列的可能性。
And I think the animal data are very impressive.
我认为动物数据非常令人印象深刻。
We should have you back on to talk-
我们应该让你回来谈谈-
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
I take it with the hope of, because I feel like the animal data is very promising.
我满怀希望地接受它，因为我觉得动物数据很有希望。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There you go.
就这样吧。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
And so I'm like, "It probably is.
所以我想，“可能是这样。
So why not?"
那么为什么不呢？”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And obviously, you're doing things.
显然，你正在做事。
So cold and heat converge on some common pathways related to what you called intermittent challenge, which I love.
因此，冷和热会集中在一些与你所说的间歇性挑战相关的共同路径上，我喜欢这种挑战。
I think if intermittent fasting, cold, heat, exercise, I mean maybe even intermittent sleep deprivation ...
我想如果间歇性禁食、冷、热、锻炼，我的意思是甚至可能间歇性睡眠剥夺......
And I keep waiting for the intermittent sleep deprivation movement.
而我一直在等待间歇性睡眠剥夺运动。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I will say I pull a few all-nighters per year just for work demands and procrastination and deadlines.
我想说的是，我每年都会熬几个通宵，只是为了工作需求、拖延和最后期限。
And I'm the worst combination of academic because I'm both a procrastinator and a perfectionist.
我是最糟糕的学术组合，因为我既是一个拖延者，又是一个完美主义者。
So you end up pulling some all-nighters.
所以你最终会熬夜。
The sleep I get the next night is pretty amazing.
第二天晚上我睡得非常好。
I must say it's the sleep of gods.
我必须说这是众神的睡眠。
But I don't recommend anyone use sleep deprivation for that.
但我不建议任何人为此而剥夺睡眠。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But I could imagine that we also evolved having some sleepless nights.
但我可以想象，我们在进化过程中也会经历一些不眠之夜。
So this idea of intermittent challenge is a really attractive one.
因此，间歇性挑战的想法非常有吸引力。
And I want to make sure that we credit you with the phrase "intermittent challenge." No?
我想确保我们将“间歇性挑战”一词归功于您。没有？
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
No. Credit Dr. Mark Mattson.
不，感谢马克·马特森博士。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Mark Mattson.
马克·马特森博士。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
Who has published and he has used that-
谁发表过并且他使用过-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Used those words, oh, that phrase.
用了那些词，哦，那句话。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay, great.
好的，太好了。
We'll make sure.
我们会确定的。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
Just like Dr. David Sinclair.
就像大卫·辛克莱博士一样。
I love the xenohormesis.
我喜欢异种效应。
It was in one of his publications just so many years ago and I just love it.
就在很多年前，它出现在他的一本出版物中，我非常喜欢它。
It's brilliant, a brilliant term.
这是一个很棒的词，一个很棒的词。
So Mark Mattson gets the credit for that.
所以马克·马特森因此获得了荣誉。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Those Harvard guys are pretty smart.
哈佛的那些人很聪明。
I mean, it's a good school, I guess.
我的意思是，我想这是一所好学校。
Of course, it's a good school.
当然，这是一所好学校。
We will credit the appropriate people.
我们将信任合适的人。
Thank you for that clarification.
谢谢你的澄清。
So you've talked a lot about the use of what I call deliberate cold exposure only to distinguish it from cold that you might just be accidentally exposed to.
所以你已经谈论了很多关于我所说的故意寒冷暴露的使用，只是为了将其与你可能意外暴露的寒冷区分开来。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But it's sort of obvious when we say cold exposure.
但当我们说冷暴露时，这一点就很明显了。
There's some amazing data on cold.
有一些关于寒冷的惊人数据。
The other day, I saw a post from you and you've included this in talks before, I did not know this until I learned it from you, so credit to you, that even 20 seconds of immersion in, I think, it was four degree, four-
前几天，我看到你的帖子，你之前在演讲中提到过这一点，直到我从你那里了解到这一点我才知道这一点，所以感谢你，即使是 20 秒的沉浸，我认为，温度是四度，四-
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
Forty-nine degree Fahrenheit.
四十九华氏度。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Forty-nine degree Fahrenheit.
四十九华氏度。
I was translating to Celsius, but 49-degree-Fahrenheit water, so cold water can lead to long-lasting increases in epinephrine, adrenaline, and I have to presume other neuromodulators and neurochemicals as well.
我翻译的是摄氏度，但水是 49 华氏度，所以冷水会导致肾上腺素、肾上腺素的持久增加，我还必须假设还有其他神经调节剂和神经化学物质。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What are some cold protocols that you find particularly interesting or attractive from the standpoint of, I don't know, pick your favorite, metabolism, neuro/mood effects, brown fat stimulation, which, of course, weaves back to metabolism?
从（我不知道）选择你最喜欢的新陈代谢、神经/情绪影响、棕色脂肪刺激的角度来看，你觉得哪些冷方案特别有趣或有吸引力，当然，这又回到了新陈代谢？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We could do an entire episode all about cold, but what I'd love to know is what sort of activity or stimulus do you think is a reasonable and particularly potent one to use in terms of cold?
我们可以制作一整集都是关于寒冷的，但我想知道的是，你认为哪种活动或刺激对于寒冷来说是合理且特别有效的？
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
So today, I did three minutes at 49 degrees Fahrenheit.
所以今天，我在 49 华氏度的温度下做了三分钟。
I have a cold tub.
我有一个冷水浴缸。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So you get in up to your neck?
那你就伸到脖子了？
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
Well, I try.
好吧，我试试。
I keep floating up and so it's like really hard.
我一直在漂浮，所以真的很难。
So I would say maybe most of my shoulder.
所以我想说也许是我肩膀的大部分。
I mean, really, I'm floating up.
我的意思是，真的，我正在漂浮。
I was telling my husband, I was like, "There's too much water in here for me.
我告诉我的丈夫，我当时想，“这里的水对我来说太多了。
I can't-"
我不能——”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or too much salt in there.
或者里面的盐太多了。
Is it like the Dead Sea where you float on top?
是不是像死海一样，你可以漂浮在上面？
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
Is there salt in there?
里面有盐吗？
I don't know.
我不知道。
He takes care of all the stuff that ...
他负责照顾所有的事情...
It's the Plunge.
这是暴跌。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But yeah, they make ...
但是，是的，他们让...
Then, by the way, the podcast nor I am sponsored by Plunge.
顺便说一句，播客也不是由 Plunge 赞助的。
They did give me one.
他们确实给了我一张。
That thing is fantastic, also because it circulates the water.
那东西太棒了，还因为它使水循环。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
It does.
确实如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Which makes sure that you break up the thermal layer and it's even colder.
这可以确保你破坏热层并且温度更低。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
It is even colder.
甚至更冷了。
It sucks.
太糟糕了。
Anyways.
无论如何。
So look, I'll be honest here.
所以听着，我在这里说实话。
I wish I did more cold than I do.
我希望我做得比现在更冷。
I do cold when I'm going to go on a podcast.
当我要去播客时我会感到寒冷。
I definitely do cold when I'm going to do a podcast, when I'm going to give a talk or when I'm anxious.
当我要做播客、演讲或焦虑时，我肯定会感到寒冷。
I need to make it more of a ritual.
我需要让它更像是一种仪式。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
I love doing the sauna.
我喜欢蒸桑拿。
I mean, I hate the cold.
我的意思是，我讨厌寒冷。
I hate it unless it's summertime.
我讨厌它，除非是夏天。
It's a lot easier for me to get in the cold in the summertime.
夏天对我来说更容易感冒。
But what I do love about the cold is how I feel after.
但我真正喜欢寒冷的是寒冷之后的感觉。
And I feel less anxious, I feel good, I feel more focused, which is why I usually do it before any type of public speaking.
我感觉不那么焦虑，我感觉很好，我感觉更专注，这就是为什么我通常在任何类型的公开演讲之前这样做。
Or just when I'm just anxious, I'll just get in there.
或者当我只是焦虑的时候，我就会进去。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
And so the 20 seconds at 49 degrees, I think it was 49 degrees Fahrenheit, was really a good number because time and temperature do ...
所以 49 度的 20 秒，我认为是 49 华氏度，确实是一个很好的数字，因为时间和温度会……
Time or duration, I guess would be a better word, and temperature do matter.
我想时间或持续时间是一个更好的词，而且温度确实很重要。
But you can do 20 seconds at a colder temperature, which is I prefer.
但你可以在较冷的温度下做20秒，这是我更喜欢的。
Or you can do a minute or longer at a warmer temperature.
或者您可以在较高的温度下进行一分钟或更长时间。
I think there was another study showing 59 degrees Fahrenheit at one hour.
我认为另一项研究显示一小时内温度为 59 华氏度。
It was like two, three, four.
就像两个、三个、四个。
But who wants to do one hour-
但谁愿意做一小时-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
I'm familiar with that study.
我对这项研究很熟悉。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
...
...
at 69-
69岁-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I love ...
我爱...
So this really reveals just how absolutely nerdy I am and maybe why some times and relationships in my life were challenged.
所以这确实揭示了我是多么的书呆子，也许还有为什么我生命中的某些时候和人际关系受到挑战。
I love reading the methods sections of papers.
我喜欢阅读论文的方法部分。
So people can come at me with a number of things about papers and I might miss something.
因此，人们可能会向我提出一些有关论文的问题，而我可能会错过一些东西。
Surely, I miss certain things like anybody does.
当然，我和其他人一样怀念某些事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But the methods, I relish in reading the methods.
但是方法，我喜欢阅读这些方法。
And that paper's really interesting because they had people sit in lawn chairs basically in swimming pools, so for an hour.
那篇论文真的很有趣，因为他们让人们坐在游泳池里的草坪椅上，持续一个小时。
And it wasn't real ...
这不是真的...
It was chilly, it wasn't super cold.
天气很冷，但并不是特别冷。
I mean, 60 is not ...
我的意思是，60不是...
It's not warm, but it's not ice cold, obviously.
显然，天气不热，但也不冷。
But an hour is ridiculous at some level.
但在某种程度上，一个小时是荒谬的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But the increases in dopamine were massive and lasted hours.
但多巴胺的增加是巨大的，并且持续了几个小时。
So the mood-enhancing effects that you report, you're not imagining that.
所以你报告的改善情绪的效果并不是你想象的。
Those are almost certainly the consequence of having slowly elevating but significantly elevated dopamine that goes on for hours.
几乎可以肯定，这些都是多巴胺持续数小时缓慢但显着升高的结果。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's almost a dreamlike profile for dopamine because most everything else, like an Adderall, a Ritalin, a cup of coffee and a workout drink, or preworkout drink or something is going to give you a big spike in adrenaline and dopamine and a big crash.
这对多巴胺来说几乎是一个梦幻般的情况，因为大多数其他东西，比如阿得拉、利他林、一杯咖啡和一杯锻炼饮料，或者锻炼前饮料或其他东西都会让你的肾上腺素和多巴胺大幅飙升，然后严重崩溃。
And somehow it creates this really nice, contoured profile.
不知怎的，它创造了这个非常漂亮的轮廓轮廓。
So whatever you're experiencing there is very nicely supported by the data.
因此，无论你在那里经历什么，数据都很好地支持了这一点。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
Well, I need to get doing it more.
嗯，我需要做得更多。
I've had a couple of scary experiences going from hot to cold where-
我经历过几次从热到冷的可怕经历——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Can you explain?
你能解释一下吗？
Yeah.
是的。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
...
...
blood pressure changes, I think, where I basically went straight from a really hot Jacuzzi.
我想，血压会发生变化，我基本上是直接从非常热的按摩浴缸中出来的。
I was in there for 30 minutes.
我在那里呆了30分钟。
I mean, I was doing heat ...
我的意思是，我正在做热...
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Jacuzzi.
按摩浴缸。
Okay.
好的。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
Yeah, 104 degrees Fahrenheit.
是的，104 华氏度。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's toasty.
那是烤面包。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
And then ...
然后...
For 30 minutes.
30分钟。
And then I went straight into, at the time it was our pool, it was in February, it was like wintertime and it was 50.
然后我就直接进去了，当时是我们的泳池，那是二月，就像冬天一样，温度是50度。
It was in the 50s.
那是在20世纪50年代。
It was cold.
天气很冷。
And I was in there and I was listening to Simon & Garfunkel.
我在那里听西蒙和加芬克尔的音乐。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
I was trying to stay in a long time, get on my cold and I was trying to impress Dan because he goes in there for ...
我试图在里面呆很长一段时间，感冒，我试图给丹留下深刻的印象，因为他去那里是为了……
He'll stay in there for 15 minutes.
他会在那里呆15分钟。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wow.
哇。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
But I started to feel really blinky, low blood pressure or something and I got scared, so I got out.
但我开始感到非常眨眼，血压低或其他什么，我很害怕，所以我出去了。
And then I couldn't stand.
然后我就受不了了。
I had vertigo or something and I was so scared, was so scared.
我有眩晕什么的，我非常害怕，非常害怕。
And I've had a couple of times too where just going straight from the sauna to it, to the cold plunge where I'm starting to feel ...
我也有过几次从桑拿房直接进入桑拿房，然后进入寒冷的地方，我开始感觉……
I'm like, "Ooh, I feel a little blood pressure change or something."
我想，“哦，我感觉血压有点变化什么的。”
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
And it makes sense.
这是有道理的。
The sauna is causing vasodilation and the cold plunge or cold exposure is causing vasoconstriction.
桑拿会导致血管舒张，而冷水浴或寒冷暴露会导致血管收缩。
So it's a very just shock to my system.
所以这对我的系统来说是一个非常震惊的事情。
And so now, I wait.
所以现在，我等待。
I wait a few minutes before going in, but I do need to make the cold more routine.
我等了几分钟才进去，但我确实需要让感冒变得更加常规。
Because I talk all about the science, I'm familiar with all the science.
因为我谈论的都是科学，所以我熟悉所有的科学。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
And the norepinephrine, or noradrenaline, it's affecting brain and mood and you know way more about that than I do.
去甲肾上腺素，或去甲肾上腺素，它影响大脑和情绪，你比我更了解这一点。
I know how I feel and I know it's a neurotransmitter, and it is released ...
我知道我的感受，我知道它是一种神经递质，它被释放了......
At least in rats, they've shown, or was it mice, I think it might have been rats, but multiple studies showing that it's released from the cold in the brain.
至少在老鼠身上，他们已经证明，或者是老鼠，我认为它可能是老鼠，但多项研究表明它是从大脑的寒冷中释放出来的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And now in humans as well.
现在人类也是如此。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
Oh, in the brain, they found-
哦，在大脑中，他们发现——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So in that study, that's the ...
所以在那项研究中，这就是......
We can put a link to this.
我们可以添加一个链接。
It's published in 2000, European Journal of Physiology, that big dopamine increase.
2000年《欧洲生理学杂志》发表了多巴胺大幅增加的报道。
They also looked at epinephrine and cortisol and saw some really ...
他们还研究了肾上腺素和皮质醇，发现了一些确实......
Yeah, so this has been done in humans.
是的，这已经在人类身上完成了。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
They did brain.
他们做了大脑。
Oh, I didn't know.
哦，我不知道。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, no, no, not yet.
哦，不，不，还没有。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
The plasma.
等离子体。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No.
不。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
Yeah, yes, plasma.
是的，是的，等离子。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, very hard to measure dopamine directly from the brain unless you're doing microdialysis.
是的，很难直接从大脑中测量多巴胺，除非你正在进行微透析。
No, unfortunately, their skulls were intact.
不，不幸的是，他们的头骨完好无损。
Fortunately for them, unfortunately for the research committee, their skulls were intact so they couldn't measure directly in the brain.
对他们来说幸运的是，对研究委员会来说不幸的是，他们的头骨完好无损，所以他们无法直接在大脑中进行测量。
But obviously, there's a correlate there.
但显然，其中存在关联。
It's a very real effect.
这是一个非常真实的效果。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But the advantage of not doing it too often is that you're not cold-adapted.
但不经常这样做的好处是你不会适应寒冷。
Now, it's very hard for anyone to get truly cold-adapted.
现在，任何人都很难真正适应寒冷。
Some people start to look forward to the cold.
有些人开始期待寒冷。
And what I think they're looking forward to is the feeling afterward, that dopamine rush.
我认为他们期待的是之后的感觉，多巴胺激增的感觉。
But if you get cold-adapted, then it certainly blunts some of the effect.
但如果你适应了寒冷，那么它肯定会削弱一些效果。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
But I want to be cold-adapted because that means I have more mitochondria in my adipose tissue and perhaps even muscle.
但我想要适应寒冷，因为这意味着我的脂肪组织甚至肌肉中有更多的线粒体。
That's been shown.
这已经被证明了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So maybe there's a good opportunity to ...
所以也许有一个很好的机会...
So cold and UCP-1, if you could educate us on UCP-1, I find this really interesting, and I learned about it from you.
那么冷和 UCP-1，如果你能教育我们有关 UCP-1 的知识，我觉得这真的很有趣，我是从你那里了解到的。
So-
所以——
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
Yeah.
是的。
So norepinephrine actually released in the plasma, it does act as a hormone.
所以去甲肾上腺素实际上在血浆中释放，它确实起到了激素的作用。
Vasoconstriction is one thing it does, but it also regulates a variety of molecular functions that have to do with adaption to cold, one happening to be ...
血管收缩是它的作用之一，但它还调节多种与适应寒冷有关的分子功能，其中一个恰好是......
Shivering is a very inefficient way to produce heat, which is what your body's trying to do when it's exposed to cold.
发抖是一种非常低效的产生热量的方式，而这正是你的身体在暴露于寒冷时试图产生的热量。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
And your muscles are basically contracting and producing heat from that, but that's just not very efficient.
你的肌肉基本上是在收缩并从中产生热量，但这并不是很有效。
So the more eloquent way to do it, or elegant I guess, way to do it is to basically have your mitochondria produce tons and tons of heat.
因此，更雄辩的方法，或者我认为优雅的方法，就是让你的线粒体产生大量的热量。
So the way it does this is by activating a gene called UCP-1, uncoupling protein 1, norepinephrine is upstream of that, activating it.
因此，它的实现方式是通过激活一个名为 UCP-1 的基因，解偶联蛋白质 1，去甲肾上腺素位于该基因的上游，从而激活它。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
So what that does is essentially ...
所以它的作用本质上是......
So mitochondria are these little organelles inside of your cells that are responsible for producing energy.
线粒体是细胞内负责产生能量的小细胞器。
Usually, that's in the form of adenosine triphosphate, ATP, and that's what lets everything function inside of your body, from your neurotransmitter production to your heart beating, et cetera
通常，它以三磷酸腺苷 (ATP) 的形式存在，它让您体内的一切功能发挥作用，从神经递质的产生到心脏跳动等等。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
However, you can uncouple your mitochondria.
但是，您可以解开线粒体。
Basically, your mitochondria, they're like a little battery.
基本上，你的线粒体就像一块小电池。
So they have ...
所以他们有...
Well, they have a double membrane, first of all, they're structured.
嗯，它们有双层膜，首先，它们是结构化的。
But they have a negative charge on the inside and they have a positive charge on the inner membrane, so in between the outer membrane and the inside part.
但它们的内部带负电荷，内膜带正电荷，因此位于外膜和内部部分之间。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Like a neuron.
就像一个神经元。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
Like a neuron.
就像一个神经元。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, cool.
是的，很酷。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
So I guess it's like a neuron.
所以我猜它就像一个神经元。
It's like a battery, negative and positive.
它就像一个电池，有负极和正极。
Well basically, you can uncouple that charge and so that positive charge protons start leaking out the mitochondria and your mitochondria freak out.
基本上，你可以解开该电荷，这样带正电荷的质子就开始泄漏出线粒体，你的线粒体就会崩溃。
So this is called uncoupling it.
所以这就是所谓的解耦。
And they start to ...
他们开始……
It's maximum respiration, as we call it.
正如我们所说，这是最大呼吸。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
They try to make as much energy.
他们试图产生尽可能多的能量。
They're like, "I got to get that proton back, that gradient, the electrochemical gradient." And so they just go insane.
他们就像是，“我必须取回质子、梯度、电化学梯度。”所以他们就会发疯。
And in this case, it's uncoupled energy.
在这种情况下，它是未耦合的能量。
So the energy they're making is actually heat, not ATP, but heat is ...
所以他们制造的能量实际上是热量，而不是 ATP，但热量是......
But you're essentially burning substrate, so who cares?
但你本质上是在燃烧基质，所以谁在乎呢？
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
You're burning glucose, you're burning your lipids, you're basically burning things and making heat.
你在燃烧葡萄糖，你在燃烧你的脂质，你基本上是在燃烧东西并产生热量。
And so that's what uncoupling does, and that is a much more efficient way of producing heat than shivering.
这就是解耦的作用，这是一种比颤抖更有效的产生热量的方式。
And so as you become more adapted, maybe the longer duration that you've stayed in the cold or the more times you've done it, you'll no longer shiver anymore.
所以当你变得更加适应时，也许你在寒冷中呆的时间越长或者你这样做的次数越多，你就不会再发抖了。
You will start to then just do this uncoupling type of thermogenesis, as it's called.
然后你将开始进行这种所谓的解耦类型的生热作用。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
And another type of adaptation that occurs is you actually produce more mitochondria in your adipose tissue.
另一种发生的适应是你的脂肪组织中实际上产生了更多的线粒体。
And that actually happens, also regulated by norepinephrine or noradrenaline, through a protein called PGC-1 alpha.
这确实发生了，也是由去甲肾上腺素或去甲肾上腺素通过一种名为 PGC-1 α 的蛋白质调节的。
And what that protein does is it makes more mitochondria in your adipose cell.
这种蛋白质的作用是在你的脂肪细胞中产生更多的线粒体。
So per adipose cell, you're getting more mitochondria.
因此，每个脂肪细胞都会获得更多的线粒体。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
It's a beautiful way to basically make more heat when you're ...
这是一种很好的方式，基本上可以在您...时产生更多热量。
It's one of those things where it's, like it's your body's going, "Okay.
这是其中之一，就像你的身体在说，“好吧。
I'm going to be exposed to this cold next time.
下次我就会暴露在这种寒冷中。
How can I make sure I don't die?
我怎样才能保证自己不会死？
Oh, I can have more mitochondria and I'm going to make more heat." And so you're making more mitochondria in your adipose tissue.
哦，我可以有更多的线粒体，我就能产生更多的热量。”所以你的脂肪组织中会产生更多的线粒体。
And this is often referred to as the browning of fat.
这通常被称为脂肪褐变。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
And the reason for that is because if you look under a microscope at a lipid drop, basically a fat cell ...
原因是如果你在显微镜下观察脂质滴，基本上是脂肪细胞......
not a lipid drop, an adipocyte, you'll find that it looks darker because there's more mitochondria in there.
不是脂滴，是脂肪细胞，你会发现它看起来更黑，因为里面有更多的线粒体。
So it's referred to as browning fat.
因此它被称为褐变脂肪。
And so I don't want to get into the whole beige fat, brown.
所以我不想进入整个米色脂肪，棕色。
There's this whole ...
这就是整个...
I'm sure you've had experts on that talk all about that.
我确信您已经请过这方面的专家谈论过这一点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, not yet.
不，还没有。
I mean, I always think of white fat, beige fat, brown fat, and beige just kind of intermediate.
我的意思是，我总是认为白色脂肪、米色脂肪、棕色脂肪和米色只是中间的一种。
White can be converted into beige but-
白色可以转换成米色但是-
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
Right, and beige can take on thermogenic characteristics essentially.
没错，米色本质上可以呈现生热特性。
And so you can activate beige fat so that it's thermogenic in the sense that it's burning glucose and/or fatty acids and producing heat.
因此，您可以激活米色脂肪，使其具有生热性，即燃烧葡萄糖和/或脂肪酸并产生热量。
So the more you expose yourself to cold, the more you can brown your fat, so to speak.
所以可以这么说，你越是暴露在寒冷中，你的脂肪就越容易变成褐色。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
And therefore, you can tolerate the cold for longer periods, which people do notice.
因此，你可以更长时间地忍受寒冷，人们确实注意到了这一点。
And you can then have the thermogenic qualities of having more brown adipose tissue or beige, activated beige adipose tissue, which is ...
然后你就可以拥有更多的棕色脂肪组织或米色、活化的米色脂肪组织，这是......
You'll get a lot of naysayers out there saying, "Oh, brown fat doesn't regulate metabolism at all."
很多反对者会说：“哦，棕色脂肪根本不调节新陈代谢。”
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
And the reality is there's thousands of researchers trying to pill up brown fat and thermogenic ...
现实是有成千上万的研究人员试图减少棕色脂肪和产热......
They're trying to make it a pill because it does affect metabolism.
他们正试图将其制成药丸，因为它确实会影响新陈代谢。
It's not the only thing.
这不是唯一的事情。
Certainly if you're obese and trying to lose weight, you're not going to do that just by doing cold exposure.
当然，如果您肥胖并想减肥，那么仅仅通过寒冷暴露是无法做到这一点的。
You need to do dietary and exercise changes predominantly, but it does affect metabolism.
您主要需要改变饮食和运动，但这确实会影响新陈代谢。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
And this has been shown in human studies, so it is an interesting another ...
这已经在人类研究中得到了证明，所以这是另一个有趣的......
It's another possible mechanism for affecting metabolism.
这是影响新陈代谢的另一种可能机制。
And that's an adipose tissue.
那是脂肪组织。
But you also make more mitochondria and muscle tissue.
但你也会产生更多的线粒体和肌肉组织。
And this is regulated not via norepinephrine, but it is still PGC-1 alpha.
这不是通过去甲肾上腺素调节的，但它仍然是 PGC-1 α。
Interestingly, not that anyone else really cares but me, and maybe you do, Andrew.
有趣的是，除了我之外，并不是其他人真正关心，也许你关心，安德鲁。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm eating this up.
我正在吃这个。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
So PGC-1 alpha is response to norepinephrine in adipose tissue to make more mitochondria.
因此，PGC-1 α 是对脂肪组织中的去甲肾上腺素的反应，以产生更多的线粒体。
But in muscle tissue, it's unclear what the regulator is.
但在肌肉组织中，尚不清楚调节剂是什么。
Cold exposure does it.
冷暴露可以做到这一点。
So this was shown at least in a couple of studies I've seen where people that were exercising, I believe, or may have been men only that were exercising, did some separate training and then did cold water immersion, something like 50 degrees Fahrenheit, 15 minutes.
所以这至少在我见过的几项研究中得到了证明，我相信那些正在锻炼的人，或者可能只是正在锻炼的男性，进行了一些单独的训练，然后进行冷水浸泡，比如 50 华氏度，15 分钟。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
And PGC-1 alpha, which is a biomarker for mitochondrial biogenesis, which is the generation of new mitochondria.
PGC-1 α 是线粒体生物发生的生物标志物，即新线粒体的产生。
By the way, that's awesome.
顺便说一句，这太棒了。
You want more mitochondria in your muscle.
你需要肌肉中有更多的线粒体。
It's associated with improved muscle mass, improved endurance.
它与改善肌肉质量和提高耐力有关。
I mean, mitochondria are essentially ...
我的意思是，线粒体本质上是......
they're making energy in your cell.
它们在你的细胞中产生能量。
And we don't make more mitochondria normally.
正常情况下我们不会产生更多的线粒体。
You have certain inputs.
你有一定的投入。
Extra high-intensity interval training exercise can do it.
超高强度间歇训练就可以做到这一点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Can actually make more mitochondria.
实际上可以产生更多的线粒体。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
Yes.
是的。
And that's been shown in people.
这已经在人们身上得到了体现。
And I mean-
我的意思是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Weight training or just high-intensity interval training.
重量训练或只是高强度间歇训练。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
I haven't seen weight training.
我没见过重量训练。
I've seen it in high-intensity interval training, endurance training.
我在高强度间歇训练、耐力训练中见过它。
But that doesn't mean that it hasn't been shown.
但这并不意味着它没有被展示。
I just haven't seen it or that it hasn't been looked at.
我只是没有看到它，或者说还没有被人看过。
So-
所以——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Good to know.
很高兴知道。
I'm always looking for reasons to finally do more HIT type, high-intensity interval training work.
我一直在寻找最终进行更多 HIT 类型、高强度间歇训练的理由。
I do weight training and I do low-intensity cardio.
我进行重量训练和低强度有氧运动。
But-
但是——
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
There was a brilliant study by ...
有一项出色的研究......
At the time, he was a postdoc, Matthew Robinson.
当时，他是一名博士后，马修·罗宾逊。
And he's now gone on to start his own lab at the University of Oregon Health Science Center.
现在他在俄勒冈大学健康科学中心建立了自己的实验室。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Great place.
好地方。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
And he did this study where both young and older people were ...
他做了这项研究，年轻人和老年人都......
They had this whole high-intensity protocol, which I can't remember what it was, but their protocol for X amount of time, I'm sure it was at least a month.
他们有整个高强度的协议，我不记得那是什么，但他们的协议持续了 X 时间，我确信至少有一个月。
They then measured biomarkers of mitochondrial biogenesis in their muscle tissue.
然后他们测量了肌肉组织中线粒体生物发生的生物标志物。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
And the amount of mitochondrial biogenesis in old people specifically, it happened in both young and old from HIT, from the high-intensity interval training, was ...
特别是老年人中线粒体生物发生的数量，无论是年轻人还是老年人，都发生在 HIT、高强度间歇训练中……
I mean, it was enormous, at least 50%, I think.
我的意思是，这是巨大的，我认为至少有 50%。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Fantastic.
太棒了。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
So I mean, it was just like, "Whoa." And so why would you want that?
所以我的意思是，就像，“哇”。那么你为什么想要那个呢？
Well, mitochondria ...
嗯，线粒体...
You don't make your cell ...
你不让你的细胞...
Your cells are turning over, you make new cells, you replace old ones.
你的细胞正在更新，你产生新的细胞，你取代旧的细胞。
Well, your mitochondria, you don't really do that for the most part.
嗯，你的线粒体，在大多数情况下你并没有真正这样做。
You can.
你可以。
Mitochondrial biogenesis does happen, but you have to stimulate it to happen.
线粒体生物发生确实发生，但你必须刺激它发生。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
And the way your mitochondria ...
还有你的线粒体的方式......
What happens with your mitochondria is they essentially are bobbing around inside of your cells, and then they fuse with other mitochondria, exchange all their content, mitochondrial DNA and then fizz back apart.
线粒体发生的情况是，它们本质上是在细胞内部摆动，然后与其他线粒体融合，交换所有内容，线粒体 DNA，然后嘶嘶地分开。
And that's how they kind of stay youngish.
这就是他们保持年轻的方式。
But as you age, you keep doing that with the same pool of mitochondria, then you're going to get a bunch of old mitochondria mixing old stuff together.
但随着年龄的增长，你会继续使用相同的线粒体池来这样做，然后你就会得到一堆旧的线粒体，将旧的东西混合在一起。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
So why wouldn't you want to bring up new, healthy, young mitochondria into that pool?
那么为什么你不想将新的、健康的、年轻的线粒体带入该池中呢？
Right?
正确的？
So in my mind, when I hear mitochondrial biogenesis, I'm like, "aging." That's the first thing I think of.
所以在我看来，当我听到线粒体生物发生时，我的感觉是“衰老”。这是我首先想到的。
So anyways, cold exposure does that.
无论如何，寒冷暴露可以做到这一点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Amazing.
太棒了。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
Other things as well.
其他的事情也是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No. And please, thank you for offering to somehow filter the level of detail.
不。谢谢您以某种方式过滤细节级别。
But I assure you that listeners of this podcast are familiar with drinking from the fire hose of mechanism, and that was really helpful.
但我向你保证，这个播客的听众熟悉从机械装置的消防水带中喝水，这确实很有帮助。
And again, this is just one example of maybe four or five other things that you've said at least that are going to inspire me to change my behaviors.
再说一遍，这只是您至少说过的四五件事中的一个例子，这些事情至少会激励我改变我的行为。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm going to start doing some high-intensity interval training.
我要开始做一些高强度间歇训练。
Dr. Andy Galpin was on this podcast recently, and he told me that the subtle Zone 2 cardio and the weight training's great, but that I really should be doing some max heart rate work per week, going into max heart rate for 90 seconds and resting and repeating that, maybe even mild repeats.
安迪·加尔平 (Andy Galpin) 博士最近参加了这个播客，他告诉我，微妙的 2 区有氧运动和重量训练很棒，但我确实应该每周做一些最大心率训练，进入最大心率 90 秒，然后休息并重复，甚至可能是轻微的重复。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm just curious, as a brief aside before we talk about heat, what sort of cardiovascular or other types of training do you do?
我只是很好奇，在我们谈论热量之前先简单介绍一下，您会进行什么样的心血管或其他类型的训练？
Do you do HIT?
你做HIT吗？
I imagine you are doing high-intensity interval training.
我想您正在进行高强度间歇训练。
If you could just give us a sense of the contour of your week as it relates to exercise, and because you've been very gracious in sharing some of what you do for supplements and food, what about exercise?
如果您能让我们了解一下您一周的锻炼情况，并且您非常慷慨地分享了您在补充剂和食物方面的一些做法，那么锻炼呢？
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
So it all depends on my week, of course, and what I've got going on with my son and my work schedule.
当然，这一切都取决于我的一周，以及我和儿子的相处情况以及我的工作安排。
But typically, I do a lot of high-intensity interval Tabatas on a stationary cycle.
但通常情况下，我会在固定循环中进行大量高强度间歇 Tabatas。
I use Peloton because I just like that instructor there telling me what to do and then me competing with everyone else.
我使用 Peloton 是因为我喜欢那里的教练告诉我该做什么，然后我与其他人竞争。
I'm like, "Ha!" You know.
我就像，“哈！”你知道。
So it works for me.
所以它对我有用。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You're revealing something about your psychology.
你正在揭示一些关于你的心理的东西。
This is good.
这很好。
We just learned about ...
我们刚刚了解到...
So this podcast is actually just a decoy for psychological assessment of the guest.
所以这个播客其实只是一个对嘉宾进行心理评估的诱饵。
No, I'm kidding.
不，我在开玩笑。
So now we know you're competitive.
所以现在我们知道你很有竞争力。
Good.
好的。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That explains a lot of how you got through graduate school and then do what you do.
这在很大程度上解释了你如何完成研究生学业，然后做你所做的事情。
So you're getting on the Peloton and what does it look like, for someone who's not familiar with Peloton?
那么，您即将加入 Peloton，对于不熟悉 Peloton 的人来说，它是什么样子的？
I know what they are, but I've never been on one.
我知道它们是什么，但我从来没有接触过。
You are peddling against the instructor for how many seconds?
你跟教练兜售了多少秒？
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
So there's a bunch of people that are online either doing the class with you at the same time or have all time doing it, so you can just toggle on what you want and you can try to compete against the all-time number.
因此，有很多人在线与您同时上课，或者一直在做，所以您可以切换您想要的内容，然后尝试与历史人数竞争。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, so it's really competitive.
哦，原来竞争真的很激烈啊。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
And the instructor is just there to whip you, make you-
而教练只是在那里鞭打你，让你——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wow.
哇。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
The brilliance with Peloton is ...
Peloton 的辉煌在于......
I used to do Rush, what's called Rush cycle, and I used to go in ...
我曾经做过Rush，所谓的Rush Cycle，我曾经进去过......
It's basically you go in and group cycle and have an instructor there and you do all this high-intensity interval training stuff.
基本上就是你参加集体骑行，并有一名教练在场，然后你进行所有这些高强度间歇训练。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
And I loved it because there was a competitive aspect to it that had me working harder than I would work if it was just me in the room without an instructor or anyone there.
我喜欢它，因为它有一个竞争性的方面，它让我比只有我在房间里没有教练或任何人的情况下更努力地工作。
And it was just like I'm at a gym, any gym and I'm just on a stationary cycle listening to a podcast, doing something, which is fine if that's your groove.
就像我在健身房，任何健身房，我只是在固定自行车上听播客，做一些事情，如果这是你的最佳状态，那很好。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
But there is something about that group setting that holds you accountable too.
但这个群体环境也有一些让你负起责任的东西。
And the Peloton made it somehow virtual.
Peloton 以某种方式将其虚拟化。
It was amazing.
太棒了。
And I remember being back at Rush cycle, this is before pandemic, and people talking about Peloton in my class and I'm like, "Oh, that's ridiculous.
我记得回到 Rush 周期，那是在大流行之前，人们在我的课堂上谈论 Peloton，我就像，“哦，这太荒谬了。
Why would I do that?
我为什么要这么做？
That's never going to work.
那是行不通的。
I need to be here."
我需要在这里。”
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
And then the pandemic hit and I was all over the Peloton and it works for me really well.
然后大流行来袭，我遍布主队，这对我来说非常有效。
So I tend to do that at least three times a week.
所以我倾向于每周至少这样做三次。
Sometimes I do it more.
有时我会做得更多。
I'll do four, and I do a 10-minute, just 10 because it's efficient and I push my ass.
我会做四次，然后做 10 分钟，只做 10 分钟，因为这样效率很高，而且我会竭尽全力。
I push myself really hard.
我真的很努力地逼自己。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's the Tabata.
这就是塔巴塔。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
It's the 20 seconds on, 10 seconds off and it's 10 minutes.
开20秒，关10秒，就是10分钟。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And on means you're peddling like your life depending on it.
而 on 意味着你正在兜售，就像你的生活依赖于它一样。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
You're maxing it, and-
你已经达到极限了，而且-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And there's a lot of resistance in the pedals.
而且踏板上有很大的阻力。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
Yeah, so you basically ...
是的，所以你基本上...
There's a part where you're ...
有一个部分你...
I always do resistance.
我总是抵抗。
I'm like the power, I do the power for ...
我就像力量，我为......
There's a part where you're sitting, cycling and you're trying to go really fast, but I always crank the resistance up.
有一个部分，你坐着骑自行车，你想骑得很快，但我总是加大阻力。
I always go above what they give me.
我总是超越他们给我的。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
And then there's a part where you're standing and then you really crank the resistance up, which I really do.
然后有一个部分，你站着，然后你真的加大阻力，我确实这么做了。
And you feel it in your glutes and-
你会在臀部感受到它——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Like going up a hill.
就像爬山一样。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
Yeah, exactly.
是的，完全正确。
And so they break it up and most of the time, you'll have those two parts.
因此，他们将其分解，大多数时候，您将拥有这两部分。
And I love the efficiency of it.
我喜欢它的效率。
You get it done and people sometimes hear me go, "10 minutes?
当你完成它时，人们有时会听到我说：“10 分钟？
Oh, really?
哦，真的吗？
You think you work ..." I'm look like, "You do max, you do Tabata for 10 minutes and it's intense."
你认为你在工作……”我看起来就像是，“你做了 max，你做了 10 分钟的 Tabata，而且非常激烈。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Most people can't sprint for the gate of an airplane they're about to miss carrying a backpack.
大多数人都无法背着背包冲向他们即将错过的飞机登机口。
So if I think about that, and then I ...
所以如果我想到这一点，然后我...
I've just described myself sprinting through the airport and going, "All right, Andy Galpin, I got my 90 seconds max heart rate in for you, carrying this thing." But 20 seconds on, 10 seconds off, repeating that over and over for 10 minutes.
我刚刚描述了自己在机场冲刺的情景，“好吧，安迪·加尔平，我拿着这个东西为你测量了 90 秒的最大心率。”但是开20秒，关10秒，一遍又一遍地重复这个动作，持续10分钟。
So by the time you're done, you're cooked.
所以当你完成的时候，你就已经熟了。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
And then because I'm competitive during the recovery that they give you at the minute, at the end, I'm pushing at max, so the number's higher.
然后因为我在他们给你的恢复过程中很有竞争力，最后，我会全力推动，所以数字会更高。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Great.
太棒了。
So three times a week?
那么每周三次吗？
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
It's a trick.
这是一个诡计。
Yeah, three times a week.
是的，每周三次。
And then I always have my sauna on preheating up, takes about an hour and a half and I get it to about 189 degrees Fahrenheit.
然后我总是让我的桑拿房预热，大约需要一个半小时，我的温度就会达到 189 华氏度。
I hop right in the sauna after my Peloton.
我跟着我的大部队直接跳进桑拿房。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So the elevated heart rate continues?
那么心率持续升高吗？
Is that the rationale?
这是道理吗？
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
Yeah.
是的。
I mean, I literally down a bunch of water and then I get in and then I either read a science paper or prepare for a presentation or a podcast, or I hash over things in my mind.
我的意思是，我实际上喝了一堆水，然后我进去，然后我要么阅读一篇科学论文，要么准备一个演示或播客，或者我在脑海中思考一些事情。
And it's interesting because something about getting in the sauna, I think the stress, the heat stress of it, I used to ...
这很有趣，因为关于进入桑拿房，我认为压力，其中的热压力，我曾经......
So I started doing the sauna in 2009 in graduate school and I-
所以我从 2009 年开始在研究生院洗桑拿，然后我-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You're an early adopter.
您是早期采用者。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
I started doing it every day.
我开始每天都这样做。
I lived across the street.
我住在街对面。
I lived in a studio apartment with Dan.
我和丹住在一间单间公寓里。
We lived in this small studio apartment, like smallest apartment you can ever imagine.
我们住在这个小单间公寓里，就像你能想象到的最小的公寓一样。
And it was across the street from a YMCA because I was poor in graduate school, very poor, very poor.
它就在基督教青年会的街对面，因为我在研究生院很穷，非常穷，非常穷。
So I and-
所以我和-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I recall being ...
我记得当时...
I lived in my lab.
我住在我的实验室里。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
Wow.
哇。
Really?
真的吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But then again, I lived in my lab as a postdoc and as a ...
但话又说回来，我作为博士后和......住在我的实验室里。
I admit I lived in my lab with my bulldog as a faculty member for other reasons.
我承认，作为一名教员，我出于其他原因和我的斗牛犬住在实验室里。
But I get it.
但我明白了。
When you're a graduate student, you're poor basically.
当你是研究生时，你基本上很穷。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
Yes.
是的。
And so I used to go to the sauna before going into the lab.
所以我过去常常在去实验室之前先去桑拿。
And I started noticing that I was, all of a sudden, able to handle stress better.
我开始注意到我突然能够更好地应对压力。
The stress of my six-month setback because of failed experiment, which is crushing, on top of the pressure from my advisor and my own pressure, because I'm very competitive with myself and I put a lot of pressure on myself, so I was having a hard time.
由于实验失败而导致的六个月挫折的压力，这是压倒性的，除了我导师的压力和我自己的压力之外，因为我对自己很有竞争力，我给自己施加了很大的压力，所以我过得很艰难。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
I mean, I was very stressed out in graduate school, and this sauna started to really noticeably affect my anxiety and my ability to handle stress.
我的意思是，我在读研究生时压力很大，而桑拿开始真正明显地影响我的焦虑和应对压力的能力。
And I was like, "What is going on here?" So I started looking into the literature and started getting interested in the effects on the brain.
我当时想，“这里发生了什么事？”所以我开始研究文献并开始对它对大脑的影响感兴趣。
And in fact, at the time, I had a friend who was not actually experimentally, but theoretically looking into the opioid system.
事实上，当时我有一个朋友实际上并没有进行实验，而是在理论上研究阿片类药物系统。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
And basically ...
基本上...
So when you get in the sauna, you release a lot of endorphins.
所以当你进入桑拿房时，你会释放出大量的内啡肽。
Endorphins are the feel-good opioids that make you feel good.
内啡肽是一种让人感觉良好的阿片类药物，可以让您感觉良好。
But you also release something called dynorphin.
但你也会释放一种叫做强啡肽的物质。
And dynorphin is an endogenous opioid that binds to a receptor called the kappa opioid receptor, which ...
强啡肽是一种内源性阿片类药物，可与一种称为 kappa 阿片类药物受体的受体结合，该受体...
dynorphin is responsible for that dysphoric feeling when you're in the sauna and you're hot, and when you're running, doing exercise and you feel uncomfortable.
当你在桑拿房里感到很热时，或者当你跑步、锻炼时感到不舒服时，强啡肽会导致这种烦躁的感觉。
Well, I think that's dynorphin.
嗯，我认为那是强啡肽。
I'm speaking, absolute ...
我说的是，绝对...
I think I-
我想我-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, I think it is.
不，我认为是的。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
I think it is.
我认为是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I mean, there's evidence in alcoholics that some of the symptoms of withdrawal that they experience are related to dynorphin.
我的意思是，有证据表明酗酒者所经历的一些戒断症状与强啡肽有关。
And dynorphin is known to negatively impact the dopamine receptor system.
众所周知，强啡肽会对多巴胺受体系统产生负面影响。
So basically, it's the feel-like-garbage pathway.
所以基本上，这是一种感觉就像垃圾的途径。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
Right.
对。
You feel like garbage.
你感觉自己像个垃圾。
And so you think that that would not be good.
所以你认为那不好。
But this is where my friend that comes in ...
但这就是我的朋友进来的地方......
He was looking at the effects of treating morphine or heroin addiction.
他正在研究治疗吗啡或海洛因成瘾的效果。
And people that are using those drugs, they basically ...
使用这些药物的人基本上...
The endorphins or the morphine or heroin, they bind to a receptor in the brain called the Mu opioid receptor.
内啡肽、吗啡或海洛因，它们与大脑中称为 Mu 阿片受体的受体结合。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
And as they take these drugs, that Mu opioid receptor becomes downregulated, and so you need more and more of the drug to feel as good as you did.
当他们服用这些药物时，Mu 阿片受体就会下调，因此您需要越来越多的药物才能感觉像以前一样好。
Right?
正确的？
Well, endorphins also bind to that receptor.
嗯，内啡肽也与该受体结合。
And he was looking into some of the other drugs that are like Salvinorin or something, Salvia, it's called.
他正在研究其他一些药物，比如 Salvinorin 之类的东西，它的名字叫 Salvia。
It binds to the kappa opioid receptor.
它与 kappa 阿片受体结合。
It also makes you feel uncomfortable.
这也会让你感到不舒服。
Anyways, he had put some studies in front of me that showed basically binding of the-
不管怎样，他把一些研究放在我面前，这些研究表明基本上具有-
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
...
...
That showed basically binding of either dynorphin or whatever ligand to the kappa opioid receptor, basically sensitizes the Mu opioid receptor to the feel-good endorphins, and also changes ...
这表明强啡肽或任何配体与 kappa 阿片受体基本上结合，基本上使 Mu 阿片受体对感觉良好的内啡肽敏感，并且还改变了......
I think it also upregulates it or something.
我认为它也会上调它或其他东西。
So basically there's a lasting effect of feeling good.
所以基本上感觉良好会产生持久的影响。
So the endorphins that you release later from hugging someone, or a joke you're laughing at or whatever, you feel it for longer, right?
因此，当你拥抱某人或听一个笑话或其他什么事情后释放的内啡肽，你会感觉更长时间，对吗？
With respect to the sauna, it's a big sort of hypothesis of mine.
关于桑拿，这是我的一个很大的假设。
I did kind of publish that part of my hypothesis in a review article, but I do wish more people would kind of look into that.
我确实在一篇评论文章中发表了我的假设的一部分，但我确实希望更多的人能够对此进行研究。
It'd be amazing.
那就太棒了。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
But what I was getting at, I think, was, I would use the sauna to memorize things.
但我想，我的意思是，我会用桑拿来记忆东西。
This is way back in the day, and I still do it.
这是很久以前的事了，我现在仍然这样做。
And I wanted to talk to you about this because you're a neuroscientist, that there's something about being in the sauna, I don't know if it has to do with the stress response.
我想和你谈谈这个，因为你是一名神经科学家，在桑拿房里有一些东西，我不知道这是否与压力反应有关。
When you have an emotional trigger, you remember things better, right?
当你有情绪触发时，你会更好地记住事情，对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
There is a clear and known explanation mechanism for this.
对此有一个明确且已知的解释机制。
Yeah.
是的。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
So in the sauna, I mean you also release norepinephrine, just like you do in the cold.
所以在桑拿房里，我的意思是你也会释放去甲肾上腺素，就像你在寒冷中一样。
There's a lot of overlap.
有很多重叠。
It is a stressor.
这是一种压力源。
But I use it to remember things, like I'm going through something, I want go through a presentation or a talk, or a podcast or whatever, and I go in that sauna.
但我用它来记住事情，就像我正在经历一些事情，我想听一场演讲或演讲，或者播客或其他什么，然后我就去桑拿房。
I mean, you should try it if you haven't already.
我的意思是，如果你还没有尝试过的话，你应该尝试一下。
I don't know if you have.
我不知道你有没有。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I have a sauna and a cold plunge now, and I haven't tried ...
我现在有桑拿和冷水浴，但我还没有尝试过......
I read books in the sauna in the evening.
晚上我在桑拿房看书。
It's a time I insist on having my phone out of there.
这是我坚持要把手机拿出来的时候。
Initially because I thought I'd cook the phone, but also just to get some separation from the phone and screens in the evening, so I read books.
最初是因为我想煮手机，但也只是为了在晚上远离手机和屏幕，所以我看书。
The only challenge sometimes is you're dripping sweat onto the books, but I'm willing to forego a few pages of a book.
有时唯一的挑战是你把汗水滴到书上，但我愿意放弃一本书的几页。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The idea that being in this semistressful environment would aid in the learning and retention of information is really well substantiated by this beautiful work by a guy named James McGaw.
詹姆斯·麦高 (James McGaw) 的这部精美作品充分证实了处于这种半压力环境中有助于学习和保留信息的想法。
I don't know if his lab's still active, but he was at UC Irvine for a while, and then I think at University of Arizona as well.
我不知道他的实验室是否仍然活跃，但他在加州大学欧文分校呆过一段时间，然后我想也在亚利桑那大学。
They have a great memory group at both places.
他们在这两个地方都有很好的记忆力。
Very strong in learning and memory, both places.
学习力和记忆力都很强。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And he was the one that really defined this kind of inverted U-shaped function for the relationship between adrenaline and memory.
而他才是真正为肾上腺素与记忆之间的关系定义了这种倒U型函数的人。
Basically, if you're too relaxed and not stressed enough, you're not going to remember any information.
基本上，如果你太放松并且压力不够，你就不会记住任何信息。
At peak levels of stress, you actually are a memory machine, at least within the context of whatever it is you're trying to learn.
在压力达到峰值时，你实际上是一台记忆机器，至少在你想要学习的内容范围内是这样。
So what you're describing very well matches with that.
所以你所描述的非常符合。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then, of course, it tapers off as you really increase adrenaline to the point where people are starting to lose autonomic function, where they're panicking basically.
当然，当你的肾上腺素真正增加到人们开始失去自主功能、基本上感到恐慌的程度时，它就会逐渐减弱。
But obviously you're keeping it in range.
但显然你将其保持在范围内。
The other thing that I would like to ask you about is, in the sauna, of course, there's vasodilation, and perfusion of blood to the brain is a wonderful way to enhance cognition.
我想问你的另一件事是，在桑拿房中，当然有血管舒张的作用，向大脑灌注血液是增强认知的绝妙方法。
There's even some really nice data showing that during inhales as opposed to exhales, people are better at learning information.
甚至有一些非常好的数据表明，与呼气相比，在吸气时，人们更容易学习信息。
Believe it or not, during the inhale, you're taking in and absorbing and remembering more than during exhales.
不管你信不信，在吸气时，你吸收、吸收和记住的东西比呼气时要多。
And these are beautiful studies done in humans, of course.
当然，这些都是在人类身上进行的精彩研究。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So I can imagine that vasodilation, getting more perfusion of blood to the brain, plus a little bit of stress or maybe a lot of stress from the epinephrine.
所以我可以想象血管舒张，让更多的血液灌注到大脑，再加上一点点压力，或者可能来自肾上腺素的大量压力。
And then of course, there's going to be the, I don't want to call it placebo, but there's going to be the context, the conditioned place context of it.
当然，我不想称其为安慰剂，但会有上下文，它的条件性地点上下文。
If we had a good experience remembering something in the sauna once, we tend to ...
如果我们有一次在桑拿房里回忆起某件事的美好经历，我们往往会……
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The positive association effect of that location is real.
该位置的积极关联效应是真实的。
Just like if people go to a new city and they get robbed.
就像人们去一个新城市然后被抢劫一样。
If you go to Cincinnati; I've never been to Cincinnati.
如果你去辛辛那提；我从来没有去过辛辛那提。
But you get robbed in Cincinnati, your purse gets taken, your wallet gets taken, you kind of hate Cincinnati as a tourist, but that could happen in any number of different cities.
但是你在辛辛那提遭到抢劫，你的钱包被拿走，你的钱包被拿走，你作为一名游客有点讨厌辛辛那提，但这可能发生在许多不同的城市。
The opposite is also true, if something good happens someplace.
如果某个地方发生了好事，反之亦然。
So I'm imagining that it's a combination of those effects, but it would be very hard to do this in the cold.
所以我想象它是这些效果的组合，但在寒冷的情况下很难做到这一点。
I feel like the cold is a very potent ...
我觉得寒冷是一种非常强大的...
I think it takes you too far down that curve, the McGaw curve.
我认为这会让你沿着麦高曲线走得太远。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
I have to sing songs or something when I'm in there.
当我在那里的时候我必须唱歌或者做点什么。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Distract yourself.
分散自己的注意力。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
Oh, yeah, I sing songs.
哦，是的，我唱歌。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But afterward, you're very efficient at learning.
但之后，你的学习效率就会非常高。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
After, I am.
之后，我就是了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
And with respect to the sauna, the vasodilation does occur, so there's a lot of overlap between moderate intensity aerobic exercise and heat stress.
就桑拿而言，确实会发生血管舒张，因此中等强度的有氧运动和热应激之间有很多重叠。
And as you can imagine, when you're exercising, you're elevating your core body temperature, you're sweating.
正如你可以想象的那样，当你锻炼时，你的核心体温会升高，你会出汗。
And when you're actually in the sauna, blood does get redistributed to the skin to facilitate sweating.
当你真正在桑拿房时，血液确实会重新分配到皮肤以促进出汗。
But much like exercise, blood flow in general is improved to the brain, to the muscles, everywhere.
但就像锻炼一样，大脑、肌肉、各个部位的血液流动总体上得到改善。
So I think generally speaking, and there's studies showing that sauna use is associated with a much lower risk of dementia and Alzheimer's disease.
所以我认为一般来说，有研究表明，使用桑拿可以降低患痴呆症和阿尔茨海默病的风险。
People that use it four to seven times a week have greater than 60% reduction in dementia and Alzheimer's disease risk compared to once.
与一次相比，每周使用四到七次的人患痴呆症和阿尔茨海默病的风险降低了 60% 以上。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off.
噢，抱歉，我不是故意要打断你的。
You said people who use it ...
你说使用它的人...
I apologize, but maybe you tell us again.
我很抱歉，但也许你再告诉我们一次。
People who use it four to seven times per week have ...
每周使用四到七次的人...
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
They have a greater than 60% reduction in dementia risk and Alzheimer's disease risk, compared to people that use it only one time a week.
与每周只使用一次的人相比，他们患痴呆症和阿尔茨海默病的风险降低了 60% 以上。
People that use it two to three times a week have something like a little greater than 20% reduction to risk.
每周使用 2 到 3 次的人，风险会降低 20% 以上。
There's a dose dependent effect on dementia risk and Alzheimer's disease risk.
对痴呆风险和阿尔茨海默氏病风险存在剂量依赖性影响。
There's a big link between the cardiovascular system and the brain.
心血管系统和大脑之间存在很大的联系。
Obviously, blood flow a big one, you need to get blood to your brain.
显然，血流量很大，你需要将血液输送到大脑。
But cardiovascular mortality, so mortality from cardiovascular disease, if people use ...
但是心血管死亡率，因此心血管疾病的死亡率，如果人们使用......
Or actually this was men.
或者实际上这是男人。
If men use a sauna four to seven times a week, it's a 50% reduction in cardiovascular-related mortality compared to one time a week.
如果男性每周洗四到七次桑拿，与每周洗一次桑拿相比，心血管相关死亡率可降低 50%。
Again, dose dependent manner, two to three times a week is something like 24% lower death from cardiovascular disease.
同样，以剂量依赖性方式，每周 2 至 3 次可将心血管疾病死亡率降低约 24%。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
There's also lower sudden cardiac death, like a heart attack.
心源性猝死（如心脏病发作）的发生率也较低。
That's greater than 60% lower if men use it four to seven times a week, versus once.
如果男性每周使用四到七次，则比一次使用次数要低 60% 以上。
Again, a dose-dependent thing.
同样，剂量依赖性。
And the thing that's so profound there also to me, when again looking at the methods, when I look at the data.
当我再次审视方法、审视数据时，这对我来说也是如此深刻。
And this is all work from Dr. Jari Laukkanen, he's in the University of Eastern Finland, and just one of the world experts on sauna use, especially with respect to cardiovascular health.
这都是 Jari Laukkanen 博士的工作，他来自东芬兰大学，也是桑拿使用方面的世界专家之一，特别是在心血管健康方面。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
What some of his data has also shown is that if you look at the duration, the time spent in the sauna.
他的一些数据还显示，如果你看一下持续时间，即在桑拿房中度过的时间。
I mentioned the temperature I do is about ...
我提到我的温度大约是......
I do 189 degrees Fahrenheit.
我的温度是 189 华氏度。
Typically, I go in there, I'm pretty heat-adapted.
通常，我会去那里，我非常适应热。
And so the more you do the sauna or any sort of heat stress, whether it's a hot tub or jacuzzi, you become adapted.
因此，您洗桑拿或任何形式的热应激（无论是热水浴缸还是按摩浴缸）的次数越多，您就会适应。
You basically start to sweat at a lower core body temperature to cool yourself down.
基本上，您会在较低的核心体温下开始出汗，以使自己降温。
All these sort of physiological changes start to happen earlier.
所有这些生理变化开始发生得更早。
And so I stay in for 30 minutes.
所以我在里面呆了30分钟。
I stay in a long time.
我呆了很长时间。
That's a lot.
就这么多了。
You have to listen to your body.
你必须倾听你的身体。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
Most of the studies that I just talked about were from the time spent in the sauna, when I said 50% reduction in cardiovascular disease-related death.
我刚才谈到的大多数研究都是来自于桑拿时间，当时我说与心血管疾病相关的死亡减少了 50%。
What was shown was that men that were in the sauna for only 11 minutes, even if they used it four to seven times a week, that reduction was only 8% instead of 50.
结果显示，男性只蒸桑拿 11 分钟，即使他们每周蒸四到七次，减少的幅度也只有 8%，而不是 50%。
It had to be greater than 19 minutes, so 20 minutes is the sweet spot, at about 174 degrees Fahrenheit.
它必须大于 19 分钟，因此 20 分钟是最佳时间，温度约为 174 华氏度。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
And most of the saunas in Finland, by the way, they're humid.
顺便说一句，芬兰的大多数桑拿浴室都很潮湿。
So they put water on hot rocks to create steam.
因此，他们将水放在热岩石上以产生蒸汽。
And so usually between 10 to 20% humidity in the Finnish sauna.
因此芬兰桑拿房的湿度通常在 10% 到 20% 之间。
So those studies were, I would say, most of the time you're going to find that their humidity is also elevated.
所以我想说，这些研究大多数时候你会发现它们的湿度也升高了。
But to me, the dose-dependent nature of it and the duration, to me, that's a very strong data that this is more causal than some corollary thing.
但对我来说，它的剂量依赖性和持续时间，对我来说，这是一个非常有力的数据，表明这比某些推论更具因果关系。
Because that's always the problem with observational studies, including these, which they corrected for a whole host of factors like cholesterol, exercise, just everything, everything under the sun, they corrected for those.
因为这始终是观察性研究的问题，包括这些研究，他们纠正了一系列因素，如胆固醇、运动，一切，阳光下的一切，他们纠正了这些因素。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
And on top of that, you have the dose-dependent nature of the duration, the time spent in the sauna and the frequency.
最重要的是，持续时间、桑拿时间和频率都与剂量有关。
So to me, it's like something's going on here.
所以对我来说，这就像这里正在发生一些事情。
Plus, there's been studies, intervention studies where it's like comparing directly head-to-head moderate or intensity aerobic exercise on a stationary cycle to 20 minutes in a sauna.
另外，还有一些研究、干预研究，就像直接将固定周期中的中等或强度有氧运动与桑拿中的 20 分钟进行直接比较。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
There, physiologically the same things happen.
在那里，生理上同样的事情发生了。
So heart rate elevates while you're doing the activity, blood pressure increases while you're doing the activity.
因此，当您进行活动时，心率会升高，血压会在您进行活动时升高。
But then after, heart rate decreases, resting heart rate decreases below baseline, blood pressure is improved.
但之后，心率下降，静息心率下降到基线以下，血压得到改善。
So it decreases below baseline.
因此它会降低到基线以下。
This is happening the same in moderate intensity cycling versus sauna.
在中等强度的自行车运动和桑拿中，这种情况也是一样的。
So again, the sauna, this heat stress, there's something about it that really mimics this moderate intensity aerobic exercise, which is really great for people that can't go for a run, that can't even get on a bike.
再说一次，桑拿，这种热应激，它确实模仿了这种中等强度的有氧运动，这对于不能跑步、甚至不能骑自行车的人来说真的很棒。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
So disabled people, granted there are some safety concerns, they're pretty mild, but they do exist.
因此，残疾人虽然存在一些安全问题，但他们的情况相当温和，但他们确实存在。
So people that had a recent heart attack, or have some rare kind of heart disease, or problem drinking alcohol, never do that.
因此，最近心脏病发作或患有某种罕见心脏病或有饮酒问题的人永远不要这样做。
Elderly people are prone to low blood pressure, always talk to a physician before doing the sauna.
老年人容易出现低血压，在洗桑拿之前一定要咨询医生。
It is stressful.
这是有压力的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Pregnant.
怀孕了。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
Pregnant women.
孕妇。
Oh yeah, I definitely avoided saunas when I was pregnant.
哦，是的，我怀孕时绝对避免蒸桑拿。
But I think it's very relevant for disabled people, and also people that are sedentary, have been sedentary most of their life.
但我认为这对于残疾人以及久坐的人来说非常重要，他们一生中的大部分时间都是久坐的。
Like my mother, I've been able to get her in the sauna.
和我妈妈一样，我也能带她去桑拿。
I did get her on the Peloton once, but it's really much easier.
我确实让她进入了大部队一次，但这确实容易得多。
She feels like it's a spa treatment, and she can listen to her music in there.
她觉得这是一次水疗护理，她可以在那里听她的音乐。
I care about her health, but she's mostly been a sedentary person.
我关心她的健康，但她大部分时间都是久坐的人。
And so I find it much easier to convince her to get in the sauna than to get on Peloton.
所以我发现说服她去桑拿比参加 Peloton 容易得多。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
Ideally, you do both.
理想情况下，你两者都做。
But the question would be, well, I exercise, I run, I do my high-intensity interval training, why do I need to get in the sauna?
但问题是，我锻炼、跑步、进行高强度间歇训练，为什么我需要去桑拿浴室？
And so I published all this in a review in Experimental Gerontology, last year I guess, late last year.
所以我在实验老年学的一篇评论中发表了所有这些，我想是去年，去年年底。
And basically, cardiorespiratory fitness, which is a marker of health.
基本上，心肺健康是健康的标志。
Cardiorespiratory fitness is improved in people that do exercise and sauna, compared to exercise alone or sauna alone.
与单独锻炼或单独桑拿相比，进行锻炼和桑拿的人的心肺健康得到改善。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
So for those healthy, fit people out there already exercising, there's a synergistic effect by also adding a sauna into that routine.
因此，对于那些已经在锻炼的健康、健康的人来说，在日常锻炼中加入桑拿会产生协同效应。
And to me, that's great.
对我来说，这很棒。
There's so many beneficial things happening with the heat stress.
热应激会发生很多有益的事情。
In addition to mimicking aerobic exercise, there's the heat shock proteins that we talked about earlier.
除了模仿有氧运动之外，还有我们之前讨论过的热休克蛋白。
And those, it kind of brings me back to my early days of science, when I was at the Salk Institute for Biological Studies doing research on little nematode worms that we or someone else injected amyloid beta 42, the peptide, the 42-amino acid peptide that is involved in amyloid plaques found in the brain correlated with Alzheimer's disease and other brain disorders.
这让我想起了我早期的科学生涯，当时我在索尔克生物研究所对小线虫进行研究，我们或其他人注射了β-42淀粉样蛋白，这种肽是一种42个氨基酸的肽，与阿尔茨海默病和其他脑部疾病相关的大脑中发现的淀粉样斑块有关。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
We injected those into the muscle tissue of worms.
我们将它们注射到蠕虫的肌肉组织中。
And basically, these worms become paralyzed with age because these proteins aggregate.
基本上，这些蠕虫会随着年龄的增长而瘫痪，因为这些蛋白质会聚集。
Well, heat shock proteins, one of the main things they do is they basically make sure the proteins inside of your cells maintain their proper three-dimensional structure, and are folded right, and so they're not prone to aggregating and forming these plaques in your arteries, and also in the brain.
嗯，热休克蛋白，它们的主要作用之一是基本上确保细胞内的蛋白质保持适当的三维结构，并且正确折叠，因此它们不容易在动脉和大脑中聚集并形成这些斑块。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
Back to my worm studies I was doing, I would elevate heat shock proteins in these worms, and it would totally correct the problem, where they would no longer become paralyzed.
回到我正在进行的蠕虫研究，我会提高这些蠕虫中的热休克蛋白，这将完全纠正问题，使它们不再瘫痪。
They'd move around, they were young.
他们会四处走动，他们还年轻。
Many animal studies have been done looking at Alzheimer's disease, a human-like Alzheimer's disease in a rodent, and heat shock proteins protecting from it.
许多动物研究都针对阿尔茨海默病（一种啮齿类动物的类似人类阿尔茨海默病）以及热休克蛋白的保护作用进行了研究。
So heat shock proteins are robustly activated in humans.
因此，热休克蛋白在人体中被强烈激活。
This has been shown to even 50% higher over baseline levels after just 30 minutes at 163 degrees Fahrenheit in the sauna.
事实证明，在 163 华氏度的桑拿浴室中浸泡 30 分钟后，这一水平甚至比基线水平高出 50%。
And they stay activated, at least in rodents, for 48 hours at least.
而且它们至少在啮齿类动物中保持激活状态至少 48 小时。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
So having these heat shock proteins around, making sure they're properly taking care of our proteins so they're not aggregating in our brains and in our plaques, could be another potential way that sauna is protecting from Alzheimer's disease, and other cardiovascular health, as well as longevity.
因此，让这些热休克蛋白存在于周围，确保它们正确地照顾我们的蛋白质，使它们不会在我们的大脑和斑块中聚集，可能是桑拿浴预防阿尔茨海默病和其他心血管健康以及长寿的另一种潜在方式。
So there's people that have SNPs in heat shock protein factor 70, that if they have one of them, so they got one from their parents where they have more active heat shock protein 70, they live on average one year longer than people that don't have that SNP.
因此，有些人在热休克蛋白因子 70 中具有 SNP，如果他们有其中之一，那么他们从父母那里得到了一个，其中他们有更活跃的热休克蛋白 70，他们比没有该 SNP 的人平均寿命长一年。
And if they have two versions, they got one from their mom and one from their dad, they live on average two years longer than people that don't have that SNP.
如果他们有两个版本，其中一个来自他们的母亲，一个来自他们的父亲，他们的平均寿命比没有该 SNP 的人长两年。
So it's also-
所以这也是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wow.
哇。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
...
...
been associated with human longevity as well as in lower organisms.
与人类以及低等生物的长寿有关。
So you can heat shock a worm or a fly, and they'd live 15% longer.
因此，你可以对蠕虫或苍蝇进行热休克，它们的寿命会延长 15%。
This is the work done by Gordon Lithgow at the Buck Institute, years and years ago.
这是巴克研究所的戈登·利思戈（Gordon Lithgow）多年前所做的工作。
Anyways, I guess what I was getting at was the heat shock proteins are part of that stress response pathway that we talked about earlier.
不管怎样，我想我的意思是热休克蛋白是我们之前讨论过的应激反应途径的一部分。
And they're also activated by cold as well.
它们也会被寒冷激活。
Cold shock does activate heat shock proteins.
冷休克确实会激活热休克蛋白。
Not as robust, sulforaphane activates them.
萝卜硫素不那么强大，但会激活它们。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
Again, it's one of the reasons I think we should get all of these things, because their input-activating mechanisms are more robust for different ones.
同样，这也是我认为我们应该获得所有这些东西的原因之一，因为它们的输入激活机制对于不同的东西来说更加强大。
So there is crosstalk.
所以就存在串扰。
It'd be more accurate to say there's overlap, but it's also like, you want to get the most robust from all of them, right?
更准确地说存在重叠，但也就像，你想从所有这些中获得最强大的功能，对吗？
I do.
我愿意。
I mean that's why I want to do the sauna and exercise, and eat my broccoli sprouts and all that stuff.
我的意思是，这就是为什么我想做桑拿、锻炼身体、吃西兰花芽之类的东西。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's super interesting.
超级有趣。
A couple of questions came up for me.
我遇到了几个问题。
One is, you mentioned these SNPs, these nucleotide repeats, basically genes that some people have more of or less of than others that can predict longevity in some sense.
一是，你提到了这些单核苷酸多态性，这些核苷酸重复序列，基本上是一些人比其他人拥有更多或更少的基因，可以在某种意义上预测寿命。
Is that the FOXO3 pathway?
那是FOXO3途径吗？
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
That's one that can.
那是可以的。
Yeah, I mean FOXO3 is ...
是的，我的意思是 FOXO3 是...
In fact, if you go back to the worm studies that I was talking about, that was one of the first things.
事实上，如果你回到我所说的蠕虫研究，那是首要的事情之一。
When you see it with your own eyes, you can take these worms that you basically decrease their insulin signaling pathway and their IGF-1.
当你亲眼看到它时，你可以采取这些蠕虫，你基本上减少了它们的胰岛素信号传导途径和 IGF-1。
Worms have what are called homologous genes, so they have a lot of similarities to humans.
蠕虫具有所谓的同源基因，因此它们与人类有很多相似之处。
They have an insulin-like receptor, they have an IGF-1 receptor, and they make something like FOXO3, which we have.
它们有胰岛素样受体、IGF-1 受体，它们会产生类似 FOXO3 的物质，我们也有这种受体。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
And basically if you decrease that insulin signaling pathway, the FOXO3 is always active in those worms.
基本上，如果你减少胰岛素信号传导途径，FOXO3 在这些蠕虫体内总是活跃的。
And they live like a hundred percent longer.
他们的寿命延长了百分之一百。
And not only do they live longer, I mean, they are like a very young worm.
我的意思是，它们不仅寿命更长，而且就像一条非常年轻的蠕虫。
You look at this thing and you're like, this looks like the worm that was just born hours ago.
你看着这个东西，你会想，这看起来就像是几个小时前刚刚出生的蠕虫。
What's going on?
这是怎么回事？
This thing's at the end of its life.
这东西已经到了生命的尽头。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
Now, as a side note, the thing that always got me on this was ...
现在，作为旁注，总是让我对此感到困惑的是......
By the way, this was discovered by Cynthia Kenyon, and this was back in the '90s.
顺便说一句，这是辛西娅·凯尼恩 (Cynthia Kenyon) 在 90 年代发现的。
And honestly, I'm not sure that anything has been as exciting in the worm world since then.
老实说，我不确定从那时起蠕虫世界里还有什么事情如此令人兴奋。
But I thought it was a really big finding.
但我认为这是一个非常大的发现。
The only caveat there is that the worms go through this dauer, it's called the dauer stage, when this happens, when you decrease their insulin signaling and stuff.
唯一需要注意的是，蠕虫会经历这个“dauer”阶段，称为“dauer”阶段，当这种情况发生时，当你减少它们的胰岛素信号等时。
And they go into this metabolic stasis, they're not eating as much or moving.
他们进入新陈代谢停滞状态，吃得不多，运动也减少。
And so it's like, okay, well they live a hundred percent longer, but they go into this weird state.
所以这就好像，好吧，他们的寿命延长了百分之一百，但他们进入了这种奇怪的状态。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I know people like this, some in the longevity community, they know who they are.
我认识这样的人，有些人在长寿社区，他们知道自己是谁。
But they'll get the last laugh because I'll be dead, well fed, but dead, and they'll still be going.
但他们会笑到最后，因为我会死，吃饱了，但死了，他们仍然会继续。
So in terms of the many data on sauna, and I also just want to acknowledge these Finnish groups that did this work, it's really pioneering, right?
因此，就桑拿方面的许多数据而言，我也想感谢这些开展这项工作的芬兰团体，这确实是开创性的，对吧？
When you think, 20 years ago, long before social media or any of this, and they're up there measuring cortisol and growth hormone, and all this stuff in people getting in and out of sauna.
你想想，20 年前，早在社交媒体或其他任何东西出现之前，他们就在那里测量皮质醇和生长激素，以及人们进出桑拿房时的所有这些东西。
Very, very interesting.
非常非常有趣。
So 20 minutes seems like the threshold at 170 degrees Fahrenheit, more times per week seems to be better than fewer, in terms of all-cause mortality cardiovascular risk, according to what I just learned from you.
因此，根据我刚刚从您那里了解到的信息，20 分钟似乎是 170 华氏度的阈值，就全因死亡率心血管风险而言，每周更多次数似乎比更少更好。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
Four would be a good, I think, minimum effective dose.
我认为四是一个很好的最小有效剂量。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Four times a week.
每周四次。
And you combine it with the cold.
然后你将它与寒冷结合起来。
I've also seen a protocol where ...
我还见过一个协议，其中...
it's a very extreme protocol, I don't recommend this to people right off the bat.
这是一个非常极端的协议，我不会立即向人们推荐这个协议。
Where they had human subjects get into the sauna for 30 minutes, get out for five, 30 minutes, get out for five, 30 minutes, for a total of two hours of exposure.
他们让受试者进入桑拿房 30 分钟，出去 5、30 分钟，再出去 5、30 分钟，总共暴露两个小时。
But that was what led to these massive 16-fold increases in growth hormone, and they had to do it very seldom.
但这就是导致生长激素大幅增加 16 倍的原因，而且他们很少这样做。
So it sounds like these protocols you're describing, 20 minutes done four times per week, far more reasonable for most people to access.
所以听起来你所描述的这些协议，每周进行四次，每次 20 分钟，对于大多数人来说更合理。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But I know people are probably desperate to know what if they don't have a sauna?
但我知道人们可能非常想知道如果他们没有桑拿怎么办？
A sauna is kind of a unique item.
桑拿是一种独特的项目。
So I have a couple of questions.
所以我有几个问题。
Can people use hot baths, with the appropriate warning, of course, that, without getting into description of the mechanics and the underlying biology, it's pretty obvious that the testes, if they get too warm, you'll kill a sperm.
人们可以使用热水浴吗？当然，有适当的警告，在不深入描述机械原理和潜在生物学的情况下，很明显，如果睾丸变得太热，就会杀死精子。
That's the reason why the testes are housed in a structure called the scrotum that can move around.
这就是为什么睾丸被安置在一个可以移动的称为阴囊的结构中的原因。
We are biologists just talking about realities here.
我们是生物学家，只是在这里谈论现实。
So if you're trying to conceive children or keep your sperm healthy, guys should probably stay out of warm hot baths-
因此，如果您想怀孕或保持精子健康，男士们可能应该避免洗热水澡——
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
For at least six months.
至少六个月。
That's been shown.
这已经被证明了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Six months.
六个月。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
Sperm motility goes down and sperm production goes down.
精子活力下降，精子产量下降。
But that is completely corrected if they stay out of the sauna for six months.
但如果他们六个月不去桑拿房，这种情况就完全纠正了。
So after six months later, it's back to normal.
所以六个月后，一切就恢复正常了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Great, that's very useful information, I'm sure, to a number of people out there.
太好了，我确信这对很多人来说都是非常有用的信息。
If people don't have access to a sauna, and we get this about cold too, people always say, what about cold showers?
如果人们没有机会去桑拿，而我们也有感冒的问题，人们总是会说，洗冷水澡怎么样？
And I always say, well, the studies have mainly been done on immersion because it's hard to keep things controlled in cold showers.
我总是说，好吧，这些研究主要是针对浸泡进行的，因为在冷水淋浴中很难控制事情。
It just doesn't make for a very good experiment, because you get a bigger person, less of them is under the shower.
这并不是一个很好的实验，因为你会得到一个更大的人，在淋浴下的人更少。
And so it doesn't make for a good experiment.
所以这并不是一个好的实验。
So it's not as good as immersion.
所以它不如沉浸式。
But with heat, I could imagine that a hot bath would work almost as well.
但有了热量，我可以想象洗个热水澡也差不多了。
Is that right?
是这样吗？
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
Yeah, so there's been some studies looking at, for example, activation of heat shock proteins, also brain-derived neurotrophic factor increases with heat stress.
是的，有一些研究正在研究热休克蛋白的激活，以及脑源性神经营养因子随着热应激而增加。
And so the hot bath at around 140 degrees Fahrenheit, which is typically what studies will use for temperature, which is actually cooler than what I ...
因此，热水浴温度约为 140 华氏度，这通常是研究使用的温度，实际上比我的温度要低……
I crank my bath hot, it's so hot.
我把浴缸的温度调高了，太热了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But you're very heat-adapted.
但你非常耐热。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
I'm very heat-adapted, yeah.
我很热适应，是的。
And it's 20 minutes from the shoulders down.
从肩部往下就是20分钟。
And that is a very robust activation of heat shock proteins, and in brain-derived neurotrophic factor.
这是热休克蛋白和脑源性神经营养因子的强烈激活。
And then heat shock proteins are also protecting against muscle atrophy.
热休克蛋白也能防止肌肉萎缩。
So that's also having to do with the protein structure and the muscle tissue as well.
所以这也与蛋白质结构和肌肉组织有关。
And this has been studies in animal data, as well as some recent human data as well.
这是对动物数据以及最近的一些人类数据的研究。
It was local hyperthermia, or local heat treatment, but essentially it showed that it protected ...
这是局部热疗，或局部热处理，但本质上它表明它保护了......
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
There was a study where they were looking at muscle disuse, and it was something like the local heat treatment prevented almost 40% of the muscle atrophy from disuse.
有一项研究研究了肌肉废用，局部热处理可以防止近 40% 的肌肉废用萎缩。
And it's funny because I used to use the sauna when I was injured and stuff, I would go in the sauna because I didn't know, at the time, because I was a graduate student, but I knew just from experiments that I'm not losing as much muscle.
这很有趣，因为我受伤时经常使用桑拿房，我会去桑拿房，因为我当时不知道，因为我是一名研究生，但我从实验中知道我并没有失去那么多肌肉。
I feel better.
我感觉好多了。
At the time, I was reading all about the growth hormone and stuff back then, and I knew about heat shock proteins, so I kind of knew, but that data wasn't around yet.
当时，我正在阅读有关生长激素之类的所有内容，而且我了解热休克蛋白，所以我有点知道，但这些数据还没有。
And so now we have the data, and I've always felt like I wasn't losing my muscle like I should have been when I was doing the sauna, and I was doing it literally seven days a week.
现在我们有了数据，我一直觉得我并没有像我洗桑拿时那样失去肌肉，而且我每周 7 天都这样做。
It was like hardcore.
这就像硬核一样。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This is also during graduate school?
这也是在读研究生的时候吗？
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
Yeah.
是的。
Now I'm doing the sauna, bare minimum I do three, but I try to do four because of ...
现在我正在洗桑拿，至少洗三个，但我尝试洗四个，因为......
It all depends on my schedule.
这一切都取决于我的日程安排。
I also like to do long runs.
我也喜欢长跑。
It's like long being three miles, not like Cam Hanes’s long.
这就像三英里一样长，而不是像卡姆·汉斯那样长。
But really for me, and we were talking about this earlier off camera, that the runs for me are for my brain.
但实际上对我来说，我们早些时候在镜头外讨论过这一点，对我来说，跑步是为了我的大脑。
I get this mind-wandering effect where I daydream and I think about things.
当我做白日梦和思考事物时，我会产生这种走神的效果。
I work through problems.
我解决问题。
I get creative, I come up with ideas, and this is all happening on the runs.
我发挥创造力，提出想法，而这一切都发生在跑步中。
I miss my runs if I don't do them, and I miss it because of the brain effects I get from it.
如果我不跑步，我就会怀念跑步，而我会怀念跑步，因为它对我的大脑产生影响。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
And when I exercise, it's funny because I'm a female, and you think that I'd be exercising to stay fit, and in shape, and care about my figure.
当我锻炼时，这很有趣，因为我是一名女性，你认为我锻炼是为了保持健康、体形，并关心我的身材。
But when I exercise, literally what I'm thinking about is my brain, and I'm like, this is the best longevity drug there is.
但当我锻炼时，实际上我想到的是我的大脑，我想，这是最好的长寿药。
This is it right here, Rhonda.
就是这里，朗达。
You're always wondering, you're always wanting to know, you're wanting to do the best.
你总是想知道，你总是想知道，你总是想做到最好。
If you don't exercise, you're missing that essential dose.
如果您不锻炼，您就会错过必需的剂量。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
And so that for me is the motivation.
这对我来说就是动力。
The doping seeking thing I'm looking for.
我正在寻找寻找兴奋剂的东西。
Admittedly, I do not do enough strength training, and I have to do it.
不可否认，我做的力量训练还不够，但我必须要做。
I have to.
我必须。
I have to.
我必须。
I have to.
我必须。
I'm so after the endurance and the HIT, and I really need to add that in because muscle mass is also extremely important for aging as well.
我非常追求耐力和 HIT，我真的需要添加这一点，因为肌肉质量对于衰老也非常重要。
So that's my fault.
所以那是我的错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, the brain effects are really interesting.
嗯，大脑效应真的很有趣。
I also run.
我也跑。
I try and get one longer run per week and a few other runs, and I do it without a phone.
我尝试每周进行一次更长距离的跑步以及其他几次跑步，而且我是在不使用手机的情况下进行的。
I don't listen to podcasts.
我不听播客。
I occasionally will listen to music, but I really try not to.
我偶尔会听音乐，但我真的尽量不听。
I also find that my mind solves problems.
我还发现我的头脑可以解决问题。
I feel like it washes out the cobwebs, so to speak.
可以这么说，我觉得它洗掉了蜘蛛网。
Some of the most brilliant and prolific neuroscientists that I know who've had very long careers, Eric Kandel, Nobel Prize winner at Columbia, comes to mind for all his work on memory, used to swim a mile a day, and now I think swims half a mile a day.
我认识的一些最杰出、最多产的神经科学家都有很长的职业生涯，哥伦比亚大学的诺贝尔奖获得者埃里克·坎德尔(Eric Kandel)因其在记忆方面的所有工作而浮现在我的脑海中，过去每天游一英里，现在我认为每天游半英里。
But he's in his late 90s, and he's still sharp, which is incredible.
但他已经90多岁了，仍然很敏锐，这令人难以置信。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And his lab has done some work showing that any load-bearing exercise repeated ...
他的实验室做了一些工作，表明任何负重练习都会重复......
So endurance work, unlike the Peloton or cycling that's really load bearing, although you're cycling really hard with the resistance.
因此，耐力训练与主车或自行车不同，它是真正的负重，尽管你在骑行时非常努力地抵抗阻力。
Causes the release of osteocalcin from the bones, which acts in an endocrine way, sort of like a hormone.
导致骨骼释放骨钙素，其以内分泌方式发挥作用，有点像激素。
It can actually travel to the hippocampus, and at least in these animal studies, induce the proliferation of neurons, growth of synapses, BDNF, a number of downstream things, which kind of makes sense if we were to put a just-so evolutionary story on this.
它实际上可以到达海马体，至少在这些动物研究中，诱导神经元增殖、突触生长、脑源性神经营养因子（BDNF）和许多下游事物，如果我们对此有一个简单的进化故事，这是有道理的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
A body that's active can signal to the brain that the body still needs cognition.
活跃的身体可以向大脑发出信号，表明身体仍然需要认知。
An inactive body in some ways is depriving the brain of any signal about what the body is doing.
在某些方面，不活跃的身体会剥夺大脑关于身体正在做什么的任何信号。
Obviously, I'm making this up as conjecture, but we know in ocean and various ocean animals that they'll swim around for some period of their life, and then they'll have a completely stationary portion of their life, and basically the brain degenerates.
显然，这是我的猜想，但我们知道，在海洋和各种海洋动物中，它们在生命的某个时期会四处游动，然后它们的生命中有一个完全静止的部分，基本上大脑会退化。
You don't need much of a nervous system if you're not moving.
如果你不动，你就不需要太多的神经系统。
So I think there's really something there, and also just letting your ideas and mind drift.
所以我认为那里确实有一些东西，而且只是让你的想法和思想随波逐流。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I love that you ...
我喜欢你...
and I appreciate that you shared your protocols.
我很感谢您分享了您的协议。
Because I think right now we're in an interesting time in public health information history where people are just kind of getting bombarded with "cold is good, heat is good." There are all these micronutrients, and of course macronutrients are important too.
因为我认为现在我们正处于公共卫生信息史上一个有趣的时期，人们只是受到“冷是好的，热是好的”的轰炸。这些微量营养素都有，当然大量营养素也很重要。
And today you've really enriched us with the description of the underlying mechanisms and the logic behind them.
今天，您通过对底层机制及其背后逻辑的描述，确实丰富了我们的内容。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But also sharing what you do is really informative because I think people need a jumping-off place, and obviously they need to start someplace and getting heat-adapted, et cetera takes time.
但分享你所做的事情也确实提供了很多信息，因为我认为人们需要一个起点，显然他们需要从某个地方开始并适应热，等等需要时间。
But I really appreciate that you're willing to share your protocols, and that you do the things that you teach and educate people about.
但我真的很感激你愿意分享你的协议，并且你做你教导和教育人们的事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
As a final question, because I have to ask, red light sauna or no red light sauna?
作为最后一个问题，因为我不得不问，红光桑拿还是无红光桑拿？
I've been a little bit vocal about my feelings that none of the red light saunas I've ever been in got hot enough, and it was frustrating.
我有点直言不讳地表达了我的感受，我去过的红灯桑拿都不够热，这令人沮丧。
So I feel like it's neither here nor there.
所以我觉得它既不在这里也不在那里。
However, I do acknowledge that red light and low-level light therapies are now known to do a number of interesting things.
然而，我确实承认红光和低强度光疗法现在已知可以做许多有趣的事情。
It was a Nobel Prize in 1908 for phototherapy for lupus, so it's not a new thing, the idea that red light and light could do things positive for our biology.
1908 年，红光和光治疗狼疮的光疗法获得了诺贝尔奖，所以红光和光可以对我们的生物学产生积极影响的想法并不是什么新鲜事。
But do you have a red light in your sauna?
但是你的桑拿房里有红灯吗？
Do you think it's useful?
你觉得有用吗？
And I mention this because this is the number one question I get about sauna, red light or no red light?
我之所以提到这一点，是因为这是我收到的关于桑拿、红灯还是无红灯的第一个问题。
Or some intermediate answer?
或者一些中间答案？
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
I don't have an infrared sauna, but I have a sauna that has lights, it makes red light.
我没有红外线桑拿房，但我有一个带灯的桑拿房，它会发出红光。
But I don't think it's the red light that you're talking about.
但我不认为你说的是红灯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
It's not activating it at a specific wavelength, which is-
它不会在特定波长下激活它，即-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's usually so that the range that seems to be helpful, and I confess I use a red light panel for other things, is 670 nanometer out to about 720 nanometer.
通常看起来有用的范围是 670 纳米到大约 720 纳米，我承认我使用红光面板来做其他事情。
So it looks like red and very dim light, dim red and bright red.
所以它看起来像红色和非常暗淡的光线，暗红色和亮红色。
And the idea is that red light can travel ...
这个想法是红光可以传播......
the photon and energy is such that it can travel down through the deep layers of the dermis of the skin.
光子和能量可以向下穿过皮肤真皮深层。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
I don't have a red light in my sauna.
我的桑拿房里没有红灯。
I don't know if it's essential or not.
我不知道这是否有必要。
I don't think so based on all the studies I've talked about.
根据我所讨论的所有研究，我不这么认为。
I think that would be ...
我认为那会是...
The potential effect on mitochondria is interesting.
对线粒体的潜在影响很有趣。
I do think there's a lack of really good solid evidence in humans, but that might only be because it's just not studied enough, and that's usually the case.
我确实认为人类缺乏真正可靠的证据，但这可能只是因为研究不够充分，而且通常情况就是这样。
So perhaps there's the Joovv, right?
那么也许有 Joovv，对吧？
The Joovv, they have those red light panels and stuff.
Joovv，他们有那些红灯面板之类的东西。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Joovv and KOZE are the two ones I know.
Joovv 和 KOZE 是我认识的两个。
K-O-Z-E and Joovv, as far as I know.
据我所知，K-O-Z-E 和 Joovv。
I'm probably going to insult both companies at the same time, but I'd rather insult them both at the same time than just compliment one or insult one.
我可能会同时侮辱两家公司，但我宁愿同时侮辱两家公司，也不愿只赞扬一家公司或侮辱一家公司。
Both of them seem excellent for getting the appropriate wavelengths of red light, and I do not have a relationship to either of those.
它们似乎都非常适合获得适当波长的红光，但我与其中任何一个都没有关系。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
Yeah, well, I personally think the sauna in and of itself, it's about the heat stress.
是的，我个人认为桑拿本身就是关于热应激的。
And typically the question I get is, infrared sauna or regular sauna?
我通常会遇到的问题是，红外线桑拿还是普通桑拿？
And there are some differences as well.
并且也存在一些差异。
Maybe the infrared saunas are the ones that have the red light that you're talking about.
也许红外线桑拿房就是您所说的带有红光的桑拿房。
Infrared saunas only get up to around 140 degrees Fahrenheit.
红外线桑拿房的温度最高只能达到 140 华氏度左右。
So as I mentioned, the studies were about 174 degrees Fahrenheit.
正如我提到的，研究温度约为 174 华氏度。
And so you really have to stay in a longer period of time.
所以你确实必须停留更长的时间。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
However, there have been some studies coming out of Japan, they use infrared sauna, they have this whole protocol, it's called Waon therapy, and they get people in infrared saunas and they wrap them in a towel, and they stay warm for X amount.
然而，日本进行了一些研究，他们使用红外线桑拿，他们有整个方案，称为 Waon 疗法，他们让人们进入红外线桑拿，然后用毛巾包裹他们，让他们保持 X 量的温暖。
So the whole protocol ends up being an hour long.
所以整个协议最终长达一个小时。
But again, it's 140 degrees Fahrenheit, so it's an infrared sauna, and it's been shown to improve a variety of coronary heart disease, and heart-related conditions, there've been some improvements.
但同样，它的温度为 140 华氏度，所以它是红外线桑拿，并且已被证明可以改善多种冠心病以及与心脏相关的疾病，已经有了一些改善。
So obviously there's evidence that infrared saunas can be beneficial for cardiovascular health.
显然，有证据表明红外线桑拿有益于心血管健康。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
I've used infrared saunas many times at my in-laws, they have an infrared sauna.
我在公婆家用过多次红外线桑拿，他们有红外线桑拿。
And I have to crank that thing up for a while until it's maxed, and then I have to sit in there for an hour at least.
我必须把它调高一段时间直到它达到最大，然后我必须在那里坐至少一个小时。
I do sweat a lot.
我确实出很多汗。
And that's another thing we didn't talk about.
这是我们没有谈论的另一件事。
You do sweat some heavy metals.
你确实会出汗一些重金属。
And some heavy metals are excreted predominantly through sweat and others through urine.
一些重金属主要通过汗液排出体外，另一些则通过尿液排出体外。
So for example, cadmium, there's like 125-fold increase in cadmium excretion from sweat when you get in the sauna.
以镉为例，当您进入桑拿浴室时，汗液中镉的排泄量会增加 125 倍。
Also, lead is something like 17-fold, excretion is higher.
另外，铅大约是17倍，排泄量更高。
Another one is aluminum, it's about fourfold higher.
另一种是铝，大约高四倍。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
So infrared, you do sweat a lot too.
所以红外线，你也会出很多汗。
And that's because the main difference is that you're heating your body up through thermal radiation versus the ambient air.
这是因为主要的区别在于，你是通过热辐射与环境空气加热你的身体。
Like a standard sauna is a heater, and the heater's heating up the air and that's how you're heating yourself up.
就像标准的桑拿房有一个加热器一样，加热器会加热空气，这就是你给自己取暖的方式。
So it is a little bit of a different mechanism.
所以这是一个有点不同的机制。
I prefer regular saunas.
我更喜欢普通的桑拿。
Most of the data out there is from the heat stress itself, like your heart rate's elevating when you're in there, you're feeling hot, you're getting that cardiovascular ...
大多数数据都来自热应激本身，比如当你在那里时你的心率会升高，你感觉很热，你的心血管会受到影响......
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
I mean, that's what you're feeling when you're in a hot sauna.
我的意思是，这就是你在热桑拿中时的感受。
And that for me, takes a really long time in the infrared sauna.
对我来说，在红外线桑拿房里要花很长时间。
I get it at the very end.
我在最后才明白。
But I do think there are some benefits from infrared.
但我确实认为红外线有一些好处。
And they are more affordable, they're less of a fire hazard.
而且它们更便宜，火灾隐患也更少。
But again, hot baths are, I think, a good alternative modality for heat stress compared to a regular sauna.
但我认为，与普通桑拿相比，热水浴是缓解热应激的一种很好的替代方式。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Great.
太棒了。
That's a really helpful answer.
这是一个非常有帮助的答案。
Like I said, I use the red light but not in the sauna.
就像我说的，我使用红灯，但不在桑拿房里。
And thank you for reminding us of that 174 degree Fahrenheit threshold that was mainly used in all these studies.
感谢您提醒我们所有这些研究中主要使用的 174 华氏度阈值。
So we covered a lot of territory, but I just want to thank you again.
我们涵盖了很多领域，但我想再次感谢你们。
It was extremely thorough, and extremely informative.
它非常彻底，而且内容非常丰富。
My notes always look a little bit like they were drawn out by a macaque monkey who has no knowledge of the English language, but I can decipher this to tell you that there are at least 10 additions to my current protocols that I'm going to add, and I'll have lots of questions, so I apologize in advance for that.
我的笔记总是看起来有点像由一只不懂英语的猕猴写出来的，但我可以破译它来告诉你，我目前的协议至少有 10 个补充，我将添加，我会有很多问题，所以我提前为此道歉。
But on behalf of the listeners, and just directly from me, thank you so much for your time.
但我谨代表听众，并直接从我这里，非常感谢您抽出宝贵的时间。
I learned a ton.
我学到了很多。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
My pleasure.
我很高兴。
Thanks for having me on.
谢谢你邀请我参加。
It was really awesome conversation, so I enjoyed it a lot.
这真是一次很棒的谈话，所以我很享受。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Let's do it again.
让我们再做一次。
Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克：
Totally.
完全可以。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Great.
太棒了。
Thank you for joining me for my discussion with Dr. Rhonda Patrick.
感谢您参加我与朗达·帕特里克博士的讨论。
I hope you found it as interesting and as actionable as I did.
我希望您像我一样发现它有趣且可行。
Once again, if you'd like to learn more about Dr. Patrick's work, sign up for her newsletter.
再次强调，如果您想了解更多有关帕特里克博士的工作，请订阅她的时事通讯。
And to listen to her excellent podcast, go to foundmyfitness.com.
要收听她精彩的播客，请访问foundmyfitness.com。
You'll find links to the newsletter as well as the podcast there.
您会在那里找到时事通讯和播客的链接。
Or you can go direct to the podcast by going to FoundMyFitness on YouTube, FoundMyFitness on Apple, or FoundMyFitness on Spotify.
或者，您可以通过转到 YouTube 上的 FoundMyFitness、Apple 上的 FoundMyFitness 或 Spotify 上的 FoundMyFitness 直接访问播客。
And once again, the newsletter is foundmyfitness.com/newsletter.
时事通讯再次位于 findmyfitness.com/newsletter。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
If you're enjoying and or learning from the Huberman Lab podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel.
如果您喜欢 Huberman Lab 播客或从中学习，请订阅我们的 YouTube 频道。
That's a terrific zero-cost way to support us.
这是支持我们的绝佳零成本方式。
In addition, please subscribe to the podcast on both Spotify and Apple.
此外，请在 Spotify 和 Apple 上订阅该播客。
And on Apple, you have the opportunity to leave us up to a five-star review.
在苹果上，您有机会给我们五星级的评价。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
If you have suggestions of topics or guests, or feedback of any kind, please put that in the comment section on our YouTube page.
如果您对主题或嘉宾有任何建议，或任何类型的反馈，请将其放入我们 YouTube 页面的评论部分。
In addition, please check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning of today's podcast.
另外，请查看今天播客开头提到的赞助商。
That's the best way to support this podcast.
这是支持这个播客的最佳方式。
As also mentioned at the beginning of the episode, we are now partnered with Momentous supplements.
正如本集开头提到的，我们现在与 Momentous 补充剂合作。
So if you go to livemomentous.com/huberman, you'll find what we firmly believe to be the highest-quality supplements available in the specific dosages that match the peer-reviewed science and recommendations made on various episodes of the Huberman Lab podcast.
因此，如果您访问 livemomentous.com/huberman，您会发现我们坚信是最高质量的补充剂，其特定剂量符合同行评审的科学和 Huberman 实验室播客各集的建议。
You'll also find specific protocols of how much to take and when, what time of day, what time of night, et cetera.
您还可以找到有关服用量、服用时间、一天中的什么时间、晚上的什么时间等等的具体方案。
And you'll also find behavioral tools that can synergize with those supplements.
您还会发现可以与这些补充剂协同作用的行为工具。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Many of you will also be pleased to learn that Momentous supplements, of course, ships within the United States, but also internationally.
你们中的许多人也会很高兴地得知，Momentous 补充剂不仅在美国境内发货，而且也在国际范围内发货。
If you're not already following us on Instagram and Twitter, please do so.
如果您还没有在 Instagram 和 Twitter 上关注我们，请立即关注。
It's hubermanlab on both Instagram and Twitter.
Instagram 和 Twitter 上的名称均为 hubermanlab。
There, I teach science and science-based tools, some of which overlap with the content of the Huberman Lab podcast, but much of which is distinct from the content of the Huberman Lab podcast.
在那里，我教授科学和基于科学的工具，其中一些与胡伯曼实验室播客的内容重叠，但其中大部分与胡伯曼实验室播客的内容不同。
Thank you once again for joining me for my discussion with Dr. Rhonda Patrick.
再次感谢您参加我与朗达·帕特里克博士的讨论。
And as always, thank you for your interest in science.
一如既往，感谢您对科学的兴趣。