Dr. Oded Rechavi: Genes & the Inheritance of Memories Across Generations
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.
欢迎来到休伯曼实验室播客，我们在这里讨论科学和基于科学的日常生活工具。
I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.
我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。
Today, my guest is Dr. Oded Rechavi.
今天，我的嘉宾是 Oded Rechavi 博士。
Dr. Oded Rechavi is a professor of neurobiology at Tel Aviv University in Israel.
Oded Rechavi 博士是以色列特拉维夫大学的神经生物学教授。
His laboratory studies genetic inheritance.
他的实验室研究遗传。
Now, everybody is familiar with genetic inheritance as the idea that we inherit genes from our parents, and indeed that is true.
现在，每个人都熟悉基因遗传，即我们从父母那里继承基因，这确实是事实。
Many people are also probably now aware of the so-called epigenome.
许多人现在可能也意识到了所谓的表观基因组。
That is, ways in which our environment and experiences can change our genome, and therefore the genes that we inherit or pass on to our children.
也就是说，我们的环境和经历可以改变我们的基因组，从而改变我们继承或传给孩子的基因。
What is less known, however, and what is discussed today, is the evidence that we can actually pass on traits that relate to our experiences.
然而，鲜为人知的是，今天讨论的，是我们实际上可以传递与我们的经历相关的特征的证据。
That's right.
这是正确的。
There is evidence in worms, in flies, in mice, and indeed in human beings, that memories can indeed be passed from one generation to the next.
蠕虫、苍蝇、老鼠甚至人类都有证据表明记忆确实可以从一代传到下一代。
And that turns out to be just the tip of the iceberg in terms of how our parents' experiences and our experiences can be passed on from one generation to the next, both in terms of modifying the biological circuits of the brain and body and the psychological consequences of those biological changes.
事实证明，这只是我们父母的经历和我们的经历如何代代相传的冰山一角，无论是改变大脑和身体的生物回路，还是这些生物变化的心理后果。
During today's episode, Dr. Rechavi gives us a beautiful description of how genetics work.
在今天的节目中，雷查维博士为我们精彩地描述了遗传学的工作原理。
So even if you don't have a background in biology or science, by the end of today's episode, you will understand the core elements of genetics and the genetic passage of traits from one generation to the next.
因此，即使您没有生物学或科学背景，在今天的节目结束时，您也会了解遗传学的核心要素以及性状从一代到下一代的遗传传递。
In addition, he makes it clear how certain experiences can indeed modify our genes such that they are passed from our parents to us, and even transgenerationally across multi generations.
此外，他还明确指出，某些经历确实可以改变我们的基因，使它们从父母传给我们，甚至跨代传给我们。
That is, one generation could experience something and their grandchildren would still have genetic modifications that reflect those prior experiences of their grandparents.
也就是说，一代人可能会经历一些事情，而他们的孙辈仍然会进行基因改造，以反映他们祖父母之前的经历。
Dr. Rechavi takes us on an incredible journey, explaining how our genes and different patterns of inheritance shape our experience of life and who we are.
雷查维博士带我们踏上一段令人难以置信的旅程，解释我们的基因和不同的遗传模式如何塑造我们的生活经历以及我们是谁。
Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.
在开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。
It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public.
然而，我的愿望和努力的一部分是向公众提供有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本消费者信息。
In keeping with that theme, I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast.
为了与这个主题保持一致，我要感谢今天播客的赞助商。
Speaker 3:
演讲者3：
There is so much NFL on ESPN right now.
ESPN 上现在有很多 NFL 节目。
Monday Night Football, plus pre-game and post-game.
周一橄榄球之夜，以及赛前和赛后。
NFL Live, NFL Prime Time.
NFL 直播，NFL 黄金时间。
Everything you need to stay on top of every game, every week.
每周掌握每场比赛所需的一切。
Unbelievable.
难以置信。
And now NFL Network is on the ESPN app.
现在 NFL Network 已登陆 ESPN 应用程序。
More football, more coverage, more ways to watch.
更多足球比赛、更多报道、更多观看方式。
Football's on all season long on ESPN and streaming on the ESPN app.
ESPN 提供整个赛季的足球赛事直播，并通过 ESPN 应用程序进行直播。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And now for my discussion with Dr. Oded Rechavi.
现在我与 Oded Rechavi 博士进行讨论。
Oded, thank you so much for being here.
奥德，非常感谢你来到这里。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Totally my pleasure.
完全是我的荣幸。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
This podcast has a somewhat unusual origin because I am familiar with your work, but we essentially met on Twitter, where you are known for many things, but lately especially, you have been focusing not just on the discoveries in your laboratory and other laboratories, but also sort of meme-type humor that relates to the scientific process, and we'll return to this a little bit later.
这个播客的起源有些不寻常，因为我熟悉你的工作，但我们基本上是在 Twitter 上认识的，你在推特上因很多事情而闻名，但最近特别是，你不仅关注你的实验室和其他实验室的发现，还关注与科学过程相关的模因式幽默，我们稍后会回到这个话题。
But first of all, I think it's wonderful that you're so active on social media in this positive stance around science that also includes humor.
但首先，我认为您在社交媒体上如此活跃，对科学持积极态度，其中也包括幽默，这真是太棒了。
But today, what I mainly want to talk about is the incredible questions that you probe in your lab, which are highly unusual, incredibly significant for each and all of our lives, and very controversial, and at times even a little bit dangerous or morbid.
但今天，我主要想谈的是你们在实验室中探索的令人难以置信的问题，这些问题非常不寻常，对我们每个人的生活都非常重要，而且非常有争议，有时甚至有点危险或病态。
So this is going to be a fun one for me and for the audience.
所以这对我和观众来说都将是一件有趣的事情。
Just to start off very basically to get everyone up to speed, because people have different backgrounds.
只是从根本上开始，让每个人都能跟上进度，因为人们有不同的背景。
I think most people have a general understanding of what genes are, what RNA is, and so on, but maybe you could explain to people in very basic terms, and I'll just preface all this by saying that I think most people understand that if they have two blue-eyed parents, that there's a higher probability that their offspring will have blue eyes than brown eyes.
我认为大多数人对什么是基因、什么是RNA等等都有一个大致的了解，但也许你可以用非常基本的术语向人们解释，我只是在序言中说，我认为大多数人都明白，如果他们有两个蓝眼睛的父母，那么他们的后代有蓝眼睛的可能性比棕色眼睛的可能性更高。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Similarly, if two brown-eyed parents, higher probability that they will have brown eyes rather than blue eyes, and so on.
同样，如果父母有两个棕色眼睛，他们有棕色眼睛而不是蓝眼睛的可能性更高，依此类推。
But that most people generally understand and accept that if they spend part of their life, let's say, studying architecture, that if they have children, that there's no real genetic reason, we assume, that their children would somehow be better at architecture because they contain the knowledge through the DNA of their parents.
但大多数人普遍理解并接受，如果他们花一生的一部分时间，比如说，学习建筑，如果他们有孩子，那么没有真正的遗传原因，我们假设，他们的孩子会在某种程度上更擅长建筑，因为他们通过父母的 DNA 包含了知识。
They might be exposed to it in the home, so-called nature nurture.
他们可能会在家里接触到它，即所谓的自然养育。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So nurture in that case, but that they wouldn't inherit knowledge or other traits.
所以在这种情况下要培养，但他们不会继承知识或其他特征。
And today, I'm hoping you can explain to us why eye color but not knowledge is thought to be inherited, and the huge landscape of interesting questions that this opens up, including some evidence that contrary to what we might think, certain types of knowledge at the level of cells and systems can be inherited.
今天，我希望你能向我们解释为什么眼睛的颜色而不是知识被认为是可以遗传的，以及由此引发的一系列有趣的问题，包括一些证据表明与我们可能认为的相反，细胞和系统层面的某些类型的知识是可以遗传的。
So, that was a very long-winded opening, but to frame things up, what is DNA, what is RNA, and how does inheritance really work?
所以，这是一个非常冗长的开场白，但是为了概括一下，什么是 DNA，什么是 RNA，以及遗传是如何真正发挥作用的？
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Okay.
好的。
So DNA is the material, the genetic instructions that is contained in every one of our cells.
因此，DNA 是一种物质，是我们每个细胞中所包含的遗传指令。
We have the set of genes.
我们有一套基因。
The entire set is called the genome, and this is present in every cell of our body, the same set of instructions.
整套指令称为基因组，它存在于我们身体的每个细胞中，是同一组指令。
And genes are made of DNA, and chromosomes, they are containing chromosomes.
基因是由DNA和染色体组成的，它们含有染色体。
Chromosomes is the DNA and the proteins that condense the DNA, because we have a huge amount of DNA in every cell that you need to condense it to.
染色体是 DNA 和浓缩 DNA 的蛋白质，因为我们的每个细胞中都有大量的 DNA，需要将其浓缩到其中。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sort of like thread on a spool.
有点像线轴上的线。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Right.
对。
Huge amounts that you have to condense And we have the same genome, the same DNA in every cell in our body.
你必须压缩大量的数据，而且我们体内的每个细胞都有相同的基因组、相同的 DNA。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Can I just interrupt, and I'll do that periodically just to make sure that people are being carried along.
我可以打断一下吗？我会定期这样做，以确保人们能够顺利进行。
I sometimes find that even remarkable, that a skin cell and a brain cell, a neuron, for instance, very different functions, but they all contain the full menu of genes and the same menu of genes.
有时我发现甚至值得注意的是，皮肤细胞和脑细胞（例如神经元）的功能非常不同，但它们都包含完整的基因菜单和相同的基因菜单。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
No, it is amazing.
不，这太神奇了。
It is amazing.
太神奇了。
And perhaps it's good to have an analogy to understand how it works.
也许通过类比来理解它是如何工作的是件好事。
So I hope this is not a commercial, but this is like the IKEA book that you have in every cell in your body, the instructions to make everything that you need in your house, the chairs, the kitchen, the pictures, but in every room, you want something else.
所以我希望这不是一个广告，但这就像你身体每个细胞里都有的宜家书，里面有制作你家里需要的一切的说明，椅子、厨房、图片，但在每个房间里，你都想要别的东西。
So in the kitchen, you want things that fit the kitchen, and in the toilet, you want things that fit the toilet.
因此，在厨房里，您想要适合厨房的东西，在厕所里，您想要适合厕所的东西。
So you only remove one particular page of instructions, which is the instructions of how to build a chair, and this you place in the living room.
因此，您只需删除一页特定的说明，即如何制作一把椅子的说明，并将其放置在客厅中。
Okay?
好的？
And the toilet, you put it in the toilet.
还有厕所，你把它放在厕所里。
So the genome is the instruction to make everything.
所以基因组是制造一切的指令。
This is the IKEA book.
这是宜家的书。
And in every cell, we take just the instructions for make one particular furniture, and this is the RNA.
在每个牢房中，我们只接受制作一件特定家具的说明，这就是 RNA。
This is the RNA.
这是RNA。
This is the set.
这就是套装。
And then in the end, you'll build a chair.
最后，你将建造一把椅子。
The chair is the protein.
椅子就是蛋白质。
So the RNA are instructions to make one particular protein based on the entire set of possibilities.
因此，RNA 是根据整套可能性来制造一种特定蛋白质的指令。
And this is true for one particular type of RNA, which won't be the star of this conversation, which is messenger RNA.
对于一种特定类型的 RNA 来说确实如此，它不会成为本次讨论的主角，即信使 RNA。
This is the RNA that contains the information for making proteins.
这是含有制造蛋白质信息的 RNA。
In fact, this is just a small percent of the RNA in the cell.
事实上，这只是细胞中 RNA 的一小部分。
So we have a very big genome and less than 2% of it encodes for this messenger RNA.
所以我们有一个非常大的基因组，其中只有不到 2% 编码这种信使 RNA。
However, a lot of the genome is transcribed to make RNA that does other things.
然而，许多基因组被转录以产生做其他事情的RNA。
Some of these RNAs we understand, and many of them we don't.
其中一些 RNA 我们可以理解，但也有很多我们不能理解。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think it's a beautiful description, and IKEA is not a sponsor of the podcast, so it's totally fair game to use the IKEA catalog as the analogy for DNA.
我认为这是一个美丽的描述，而且宜家不是播客的赞助商，因此使用宜家目录作为 DNA 的类比是完全公平的。
The specific instructions for specific pieces of furniture is the RNA, and the furniture pieces being the proteins that are essentially made from RNA using messenger RNA.
特定家具的具体指令是RNA，而家具部件本质上是由RNA利用信使RNA制成的蛋白质。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Correct.
正确。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Thank you for that.
谢谢你。
So despite the fact that the same genes are contained in all the cells of the body, there is a difference between certain cell types, right?
因此，尽管身体的所有细胞中都含有相同的基因，但某些细胞类型之间还是存在差异，对吗？
Is it fair to say that there is basically one very important exception, which is somatic cells versus germ cells?
可以公平地说，基本上有一个非常重要的例外，即体细胞与生殖细胞吗？
And would you mind sharing with us what that distinction is?
您介意与我们分享一下其中的区别吗？
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Sure.
当然。
So yes, every cell type is different because it brings into action different genes from the entire collection and assumes an identity.
所以，是的，每种细胞类型都是不同的，因为它使整个集合中的不同基因发挥作用并呈现出同一性。
And so we have cells in the legs, we have cells in the brain.
所以我们的腿有细胞，我们的大脑有细胞。
We have in the brain, we have cells that produce dopamine, cells that produce serotonin, and so on.
我们的大脑中有产生多巴胺的细胞、产生血清素的细胞等等。
And we can make different separations, different distinctions, but we can make one very important distinction between the somatic cells and the germ cells.
我们可以进行不同的分离、不同的区分，但我们可以在体细胞和生殖细胞之间做出一个非常重要的区分。
The germ cells are supposed to be the only cells that contribute to the next generation, that out of which the next generation will be made.
生殖细胞被认为是唯一对下一代做出贡献的细胞，下一代将由这些细胞产生。
So each of us is made just from a combination of a sperm and an egg.
所以我们每个人都是由精子和卵子结合而成的。
These are two types of germ cells.
这是两种类型的生殖细胞。
And then they fuse, and you get one fertilized egg.
然后它们融合，你就得到了一个受精卵。
And out of this one cell, all the rest of the body will develop.
身体的所有其他部分都会从这一个细胞中发育出来。
And what happens in the soma, which are all the cells that are not the germ cells, should stay in the soma.
体细胞中发生的一切，即所有非生殖细胞的细胞，都应该留在体细胞中。
It should not be able to contribute to the next generation.
它不应该能够为下一代做出贡献。
This is very important, and it's thought to be one of the main barriers for the inheritance of acquired traits, the inheritance of memory, and so on, because for example, like the example that you gave with learning architecture.
这非常重要，它被认为是后天性状遗传、记忆遗传等的主要障碍之一，因为例如，就像您在学习建筑方面给出的例子一样。
If I learn about architecture, the information is encoded in my brain, and since my brain cells can't transfer information to the sperm and the egg because the information's supposed to reside in synaptic connections between different neurons, in particular circuits that developed.
如果我学习建筑学，信息就会被编码在我的大脑中，并且由于我的脑细胞无法将信息传递给精子和卵子，因为信息应该存在于不同神经元之间的突触连接中，特别是发育的电路中。
So what happens in the brain shouldn't be able to transfer to the next generation.
所以大脑中发生的事情不应该能够转移到下一代。
Even a simpler example, if you go to the gym and you build up muscles, you know that your kids will have to work out on their own.
甚至更简单的例子，如果你去健身房锻炼肌肉，你就知道你的孩子必须自己锻炼。
This shortcut won't happen.
这条捷径不会发生。
This is something that we know intuitively, even if we don't have any background in biology.
即使我们没有任何生物学背景，我们也可以凭直觉知道这一点。
And this is connected to the fact that, as we said at the beginning, every cell in the body has its own genome, and the next generation will only form from the combination of the genomes in the sperm and the egg.
这与我们一开始所说的那样，体内的每个细胞都有自己的基因组，而下一代只能由精子和卵子中的基因组结合形成。
Even if you somehow acquire the mutation or a change in your DNA in one of particular brain cells, it wouldn't matter because this mutation, there's no way to transfer it to the DNA of the germ cells that will contribute to the next generation.
即使你以某种方式在某个特定脑细胞中获得了 DNA 突变或变化，也没关系，因为这种突变无法将其转移到生殖细胞的 DNA 中，从而为下一代做出贡献。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So despite that, there is, as you will tell us, some evidence for inheritance of experience, let's call it.
因此，尽管如此，正如您将告诉我们的那样，还是有一些经验遗传的证据，我们称之为经验遗传。
And here we have to be careful with the language, right?
在这里我们必须小心语言，对吧？
I just want to put a big asterisk, an underline, and a highlight that the language around what we're about to talk about is both confusing and, at the same time, fairly simple and controversial.
我只想加一个大星号、一条下划线并强调一下，我们将要讨论的内容的语言既令人困惑，同时又相当简单且有争议。
Right?
正确的？
It's a little bit like in the field of longevity.
这有点像长寿领域。
People sometimes will say anti-aging.
人们有时会说抗衰老。
Some people say longevity.
有人说长寿。
The anti-aging folks feel that longevity is more about longevity clinics.
抗衰老人士认为，长寿更多的是长寿诊所。
They don't like that.
他们不喜欢那样。
Anti-aging is related to some other kind of niche clinics, sometimes FDA approved or government approved, sometimes not.
抗衰老与其他一些小众诊所相关，有时 FDA 批准或政府批准，有时则不然。
And so there's a lot of argument about the naming, but it's all about living longer and living healthier.
因此，关于命名有很多争论，但都是为了活得更长、活得更健康。
In this field of acquiring ...
在这个收购领域...
traits or the passage of information to offspring, what is the proper language to refer to what we're about to discuss?
特征或信息传递给后代，什么是正确的语言来指代我们将要讨论的内容？
There is this idea, and I'll say it so that you don't have to, that dates back to Lamarck and Lamarckian evolution, very controversial, right?
有一个想法，我会这么说，这样你就不必说了，它可以追溯到拉马克和拉马克进化论，非常有争议，对吗？
And maybe not even controversial.
也许甚至没有争议。
I think it's very offensive even to certain people, this idea of inheritance of acquired traits, the idea that one could change themselves through some activity.
我认为这种继承后天特质的想法，以及人们可以通过某些活动改变自己的想法，甚至对某些人来说也是非常冒犯的。
Use the example of going to the gym.
以去健身房为例。
We could also use the example of somebody who becomes an endurance runner, then decides to have children with another endurance runner, and has in mind the idea that because they did all this running, and not just because they were biased towards running in the first place-
我们还可以用这样的例子：某人成为一名耐力跑运动员，然后决定与另一位耐力跑运动员生孩子，并想到因为他们做了所有这些跑步，而不仅仅是因为他们一开始就偏向于跑步——
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
but because of the distance they actually ran, that their offspring somehow would be fabulous runners.
但由于他们实际跑的距离，他们的后代在某种程度上会成为出色的跑步者。
Okay.
好的。
This Lamarckian concept is, we believe, wrong.
我们认为，拉马克的这一概念是错误的。
So how do we talk about inheritance of acquired traits?
那么我们如何谈论后天性状的遗传呢？
What's the proper language for us to frame this discussion?
我们应该用什么语言来进行这次讨论？
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Right.
对。
We have to be very careful, as you said, and there are many complications and many ambiguities.
正如你所说，我们必须非常小心，并且存在许多复杂性和许多含糊之处。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And maybe you could tell us why Lamarckian evolution, for those that don't know, is such a stained thing.
也许你可以告诉我们为什么拉马克进化论对于那些不知道的人来说是一件肮脏的事情。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's not polite.
这不礼貌。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Right.
对。
Perhaps we'll start with just to say that we can talk about inheritance of acquired traits, transmission of parental responses, inheritance of memory, all of these things, and we can also talk about epigenetics and transgenerational epigenetics and intergenerational epigenetics.
也许我们首先要说的是，我们可以谈论后天性状的遗传、父母反应的传递、记忆的遗传，所有这些事情，我们还可以谈论表观遗传学、跨代表观遗传学和代际表观遗传学。
There are many terms that we need to make clear for the audience.
有很多术语需要我们向观众解释清楚。
The reason that is so toxic or controversial is very complicated and goes a long time back, even way before Lamarck.
如此有毒或有争议的原因非常复杂，可以追溯到很久以前，甚至早于拉马克。
So even the Greeks, they talked about the inheritance of acquired traits.
因此，即使是希腊人，他们也谈论后天性状的遗传。
Lamarck is associated with the term, but it's probably a mistake, although everyone talks about it, including people who study it.
拉马克与这个术语联系在一起，但这可能是一个错误，尽管每个人都在谈论它，包括研究它的人。
So Lamarck, he published his book about a little more than 200 years ago, and he believed in the inheritance of acquired traits, absolutely, but just like anyone else in his time, just everyone believed in it.
拉马克在大约 200 多年前出版了他的书，他绝对相信后天性状的遗传，但就像他那个时代的其他人一样，每个人都相信这一点。
It seemed obvious to them then.
当时这对他们来说似乎是显而易见的。
It was long before Mendel and the rules of genetic inheritance, and also Mendel was long before the understanding that DNA is the heritable material.
早在孟德尔和基因遗传规则出现之前，孟德尔也早在认识到DNA是可遗传物质之前。
So this happened a long time ago.
所以这件事发生在很久以前。
Everyone believed in it, including Darwin.
每个人都相信这一点，包括达尔文。
Darwin was perhaps more Lamarckian than Lamarck.
达尔文或许比拉马克更偏向拉马克。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Really?
真的吗？
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Yes, absolutely.
是的，绝对是。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
All right.
好吧。
Now we're getting into the meat of it.
现在我们开始深入讨论它的实质。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Yeah, and this is in "The Origin of the Species." It's in all of his writings.
是的，这是《物种起源》中的内容。这在他的所有著作中都有。
Lamarck didn't even really make the distinction between the generations.
拉马克甚至没有真正区分不同世代。
He had many other reasons for being wrong, but he connected the terms inheritance of acquired traits to evolution, and this is some of the reason that he was very controversial, even in his time.
他还有很多其他错误的理由，但他将后天性状的遗传与进化联系起来，这就是他即使在他那个时代也备受争议的部分原因。
There were other reasons.
还有其他原因。
For example, he rejected current day chemistry and thought that he can explain everything based on Aristotelian fluids, earth, wind, fire, and water.
例如，他拒绝当今的化学，并认为他可以根据亚里士多德的流体、土、风、火和水来解释一切。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There's still some people on the internet that think they can discard with chemistry and explain everything based on earth, wind, fire, and water.
网上还有一些人认为可以抛弃化学，以土、风、火、水来解释一切。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
And this wasn't only biology, it was also the weather and everything.
这不仅与生物学有关，还与天气和其他一切有关。
So, that was part of the reason.
所以，这是部分原因。
But Lamarck made many mistakes, but he did have a full theory of inheritance, which was a big step towards where we are today.
但拉马克犯了很多错误，但他确实有一个完整的继承理论，这是我们今天迈出的一大步。
So he had important contributions, nevertheless.
尽管如此，他还是做出了重要贡献。
Although he was mistaken about the mechanism, what he believed, like everyone else, drives evolution is the transmission of the traits that you acquire during your life, or the things that you do or don't do.
尽管他对这一机制的理解是错误的，但他和其他人一样相信，推动进化的是你在一生中获得的特征，或者你做或不做的事情的传递。
He talked about use and disuse of certain organs that shape our organs and eventually also the organs of the next generation.
他谈到了某些塑造我们器官并最终塑造下一代器官的器官的使用和废弃。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
He sounds a little bit like the first self-help public figure, right?
他听起来有点像第一个自助公众人物，对吧？
Well, this idea, this is heavily embedded into a lot of the health and fitness space on Twitter and Instagram and on the internet, and it's the idea that we're sold very early in life, at least here in the United States and probably elsewhere, which is that we can become anything that we want to become, and then that will forever change the offspring, either because of nature or nurture.
嗯，这个想法，这在 Twitter 和 Instagram 以及互联网上的许多健康和健身空间中都得到了广泛的应用，我们在生命的早期就被灌输了这样的想法，至少在美国，可能在其他地方，我们可以成为任何我们想成为的人，然后这将永远改变后代，无论是因为先天还是后天。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Right, and this is a very dangerous idea, as I'll explain in a second, and it led to horrible things.
是的，这是一个非常危险的想法，我稍后会解释，它导致了可怕的事情。
This is part of the reason that this is such a taboo.
这是这种禁忌的部分原因。
It's not only self-help, you're helping or dis-helping yourself.
这不仅是自助，你也在帮助或不帮助自己。
The problem is when you apply it to others, and this happened in a very, very dramatic and horrible way in the recent past, as I'll tell you in a second.
问题是当你将它应用到其他人身上时，这在不久的将来以一种非常非常戏剧性和可怕的方式发生，我稍后会告诉你。
So Lamarck, this is what he believed, and he thought this is how evolution progresses.
所以拉马克，这就是他所相信的，他认为这就是进化的进展方式。
And later, Darwin showed that it's really natural selection, the selecting of the organisms that already contain the particular qualities are selected based on whether they survive or not in particular environments, and therefore, their evolution progresses.
后来达尔文证明，这实际上是自然选择，对已经具有特定品质的生物体的选择是根据它们是否在特定环境中生存来选择的，因此它们的进化不断进行。
They become more common and take over.
它们变得更加普遍并占据主导地位。
This is very different, two different explanations.
这是非常不同的，两种不同的解释。
The most common way this is contrasted is the neck of the giraffes.
最常见的对比方式是长颈鹿的脖子。
This is the classic example.
这是一个经典的例子。
According to Lamarck, the giraffes had to stretch their necks towards the trees to eat when the trees were high, and because of that, they transmitted these traits, long necks, to their children, who also had long necks.
根据拉马克的说法，当树高的时候，长颈鹿必须把脖子伸向树才能吃东西，正因为如此，它们把长脖子的这些特征遗传给了它们的孩子，而它们的孩子也有长脖子。
By the way, he only mentioned this example a handful of times.
顺便说一句，他只提到过这个例子几次。
He didn't really focus on that.
他并没有真正关注这一点。
And according to Darwin, a giraffe that happened to be born with a long neck survived because it ate, so its heritable materials, he didn't know about genetics, but take over, and the rest of the giraffes that have different heritable materials just die.
而且根据达尔文的说法，一只出生时脖子很长的长颈鹿之所以能活下来，是因为它吃东西，所以它的遗传物质，他不知道遗传学，而是接管了，而其余具有不同遗传物质的长颈鹿就死了。
So this is natural selection versus inheritance of acquired traits.
所以这是自然选择与后天性状遗传的对比。
There are many reasons why Lamarckism and inheritance of acquired traits became such a bad term.
拉马克主义和后天性状遗传成为一个如此糟糕的术语有很多原因。
One of the biggest is what happened in the Soviet Union under Stalin.
其中最大的事件之一是斯大林统治下的苏联发生的事情。
There was a scientist called Lysenko, who thought that Mendelism, normal genetics, is bourgeois science.
有一个叫李森科的科学家，他认为孟德尔主义，即正常遗传学，是资产阶级科学。
It shouldn't be done.
这是不应该做的。
And whoever did normal genetics was either killed or sent to Siberia.
凡是进行正常遗传学研究的人要么被杀，要么被送往西伯利亚。
And he thought that, just like you said, not only we can become everything that we want, but we can grow everything that we want in every field.
他认为，就像你说的，我们不仅可以成为我们想要的一切，而且我们可以在每个领域发展我们想要的一切。
We can take a frozen field and grow potatoes there and so on.
我们可以拿一块冰冻的田地来种植土豆等等。
And this led to massive starvation, ruined agriculture in the Soviet Union, also ruined science for many, many years, and put a very dark cloud on the entire field.
这导致了大规模的饥荒，毁掉了苏联的农业，也毁掉了很多很多年的科学，给整个领域蒙上了一层非常阴暗的阴影。
And only probably in the '80s or something like this, the field started to recuperate for that.
大概到了 80 年代左右，这个领域才开始复苏。
Aside from that, which is a very dramatic thing, there was also crazy stories around, and attempts to prove the inheritance of acquired traits.
除此之外，这是一件非常戏剧性的事情，周围还有一些疯狂的故事，并试图证明后天性状的遗传。
Despite the realization of many scientists, this is something that is very rare or that normally doesn't happen, that it is not a normal way that inheritance works.
尽管许多科学家意识到，这种情况非常罕见，或者通常不会发生，这不是遗传运作的正常方式。
And I can tell you about two such dramatic cases that will illustrate it.
我可以告诉你们两个这样戏剧性的案例来说明这一点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, please.
是的，请。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
So, in the beginning of the 20th century, in Vienna, there was a researcher called Paul Kammerer, who was a very famous and also very colorful figure, who did experiments on many different types of animals.
因此，在20世纪初，在维也纳，有一位名叫保罗·卡默勒（Paul Kammerer）的研究人员，他是一位非常著名且非常丰富多彩的人物，他对许多不同类型的动物进行了实验。
He did experiments on toads that are called the midwife toad because the male carries the eggs.
他对蟾蜍进行了实验，这种蟾蜍被称为助产士蟾蜍，因为雄性蟾蜍携带卵。
And there's a beautiful book about it from Kessler telling the story of what happened there.
凯斯勒写了一本关于这里的精美书籍，讲述了那里发生的故事。
And there are a couple of types of toads.
蟾蜍有几种类型。
Some of them live underwater, and some of them live on land.
它们有的生活在水下，有的生活在陆地上。
And these toads are different in their shape and in their behavior.
这些蟾蜍的形状和行为都不同。
So of course, the capacity to live underwater is one thing, but also their morphology and appearance changes.
当然，水下生活的能力是一回事，而且它们的形态和外观的变化也是一回事。
The toads that live underwater develop these nuptial pads, these black pads on their hands that allow the males to grab onto the female without slipping.
生活在水下的蟾蜍会长出这些婚垫，这些黑色的婚垫位于它们的手上，可以让雄性蟾蜍抓住雌性而不会滑倒。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
For mating.
用于交配。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
For mating.
用于交配。
And the ones on land don't have them.
而陆地上的则没有。
He claimed that he can take the toads and train them to live underwater, changing the temperature and all kinds of things.
他声称他可以训练蟾蜍在水下生活，改变温度和各种东西。
It's a very difficult animal to work with.
这是一种非常难相处的动物。
Eventually, according to Kammerer, they will acquire the capacity to live underwater and also change their physiology and develop these black nuptial pads on their heads.
根据卡默勒的说法，最终它们将获得在水下生活的能力，并改变它们的生理机能，并在头上长出这些黑色的婚垫。
With this discovery, he traveled the world, became very famous, this was in just the beginning of the previous century, as the person who found the proof for inheritance of acquired traits, despite the controversy and so on, and the beginning of the realization of how it actually works with DNA and so on.
凭借这一发现，他走遍了世界，变得非常出名，这是在上个世纪初，作为发现后天性状遗传证据的人，尽管存在争议等，并且开始认识到它实际上如何与DNA等一起工作。
Not with DNA, but with natural selection.
不是DNA，而是自然选择。
DNA came later.
DNA后来出现。
And people didn't believe him.
人们不相信他。
He was actually under a lot of attacks, but it seemed convincing.
他实际上受到了很多攻击，但似乎很有说服力。
At the end, what happened is that they found that he injected ink to the toads to make them become black, to have these nuptial pads.
最后，他们发现他给蟾蜍注射了墨水，使它们变成黑色，从而有了这些婚垫。
So he faked the results, and he couldn't stand up with the accusations and killed himself.
于是他伪造了结果，他无法忍受这些指控，自杀了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wow.
哇。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
In this book by Kessler, it suggests maybe it was the assistant who did it-
在凯斯勒的这本书中，这表明也许是助理干的——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Who killed him?
谁杀了他？
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
No, no
不，不
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh
噢
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
...
...
who injected it to sort of save him from, because the samples lost the coloring or something like that.
谁注射它是为了拯救他，因为样本失去了颜色或类似的东西。
So it might be.
可能是这样。
Who knows what happened?
谁知道发生了什么事？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Well, in science, whenever there's a fraud accusation or controversy, it's not uncommon to see a passing of responsibility.
嗯，在科学领域，每当出现欺诈指控或争议时，责任推卸的情况并不少见。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There are recent cases, there are ongoing cases now where it's a question of who did what, et cetera.
最近的案例，现在还有正在进行的案例，问题在于谁做了什么，等等。
Actually, I have two questions before the second story.
其实在第二个故事之前我有两个问题。
I'm struck by the idea that he was traveling and talking.
想到他一边旅行一边讲话，我感到很震惊。
I'm guessing this was before PowerPoint and Keynote, but also before transparencies, which actually were still in place when I was a graduate student.
我猜这是在 PowerPoint 和 Keynote 出现之前，也是在透明胶片出现之前，而当我还是一名研究生时，透明胶片实际上仍然存在。
For those of you who don't know, transparencies are basically transparent pieces of plastic paper that you put onto a projector, and then you can write on them and do demonstrations, but you can show photographs and things like that.
对于那些不知道的人来说，透明胶片基本上是透明的塑料纸，您将其放在投影仪上，然后您可以在上面书写并进行演示，但您可以展示照片和类似的东西。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So how was he giving these talks, and would he travel with the toads?
那么他是如何进行这些演讲的？他会和蟾蜍一起旅行吗？
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
So he traveled with the samples.
所以他带着样品旅行了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I see.
我明白了。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
And I'm basing this on this Kessler book, which is on its own very controversial.
我的观点是基于凯斯勒的这本书，这本书本身就非常有争议。
It's more of a beautiful story than perhaps the truth.
这更像是一个美丽的故事，而不是事实。
And according to the story there, he had to stand one side of the lecture hall with his hands behind the back while others would examine the samples and pass them around and so on.
根据那里的故事，他必须站在演讲厅的一侧，双手放在背后，而其他人则检查样品并传递它们等等。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But he cheated.
但他作弊了。
Someone cheated.
有人作弊了。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
He probably did.
他可能做到了。
At least that's what most people think.
至少大多数人是这么认为的。
But this wasn't replicated.
但这并没有被复制。
Also, I don't think anyone tried to replicate it.
另外，我认为没有人试图复制它。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Interesting.
有趣。
This is just a point about replication, and actually, another tragic example, not but a few years ago, Sakai, who as far as we knew, was doing very accomplished work on the growth of retinas, literally growing eyes in a dish.
这只是关于复制的一个观点，实际上，另一个悲惨的例子，就在几年前，据我们所知，Sakai 在视网膜的生长方面做了非常出色的工作，实际上是在培养皿中生长眼睛。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think everyone believes that result.
我想大家都相信这个结果。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But then there were some accusations about another result that turned out to be fraudulent, and Sakai killed himself.
但后来有人指控另一项结果是欺诈，酒井自杀了。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This was recent.
这是最近的事。
This was only about maybe five, 10 years ago.
这只是大约五、十年前的事。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So it still happens.
所以它仍然发生。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Yeah, it happens.
是的，它发生了。
I think it's rare, but it does happen-
我觉得这种情况很少见，但确实发生过——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
...
...
especially in this very high-profile situation.
尤其是在这种非常引人注目的情况下。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I would argue, I'd love to know what your number is, but I would argue that 99% of scientists ...
我想说，我很想知道你的数字是多少，但我想说 99% 的科学家......
are seeking truth and are well-meaning honest people.
寻求真理，是善意的诚实人。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
I totally agree.
我完全同意。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
And I think that even when people are wrong, it's mostly not because they're evil and trying to act .
我认为，即使人们犯了错，也大多不是因为他们是邪恶的并且试图采取行动。
Maybe they really want to believe the results, or there are all kinds of way to be wrong, and even to bend truth without just blatant fraud.
也许他们真的想相信结果，或者有各种各样的方法是错误的，甚至歪曲事实而不仅仅是公然欺诈。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
But this is, according to the story, an example of very bad fraud-
但根据这个故事，这是一个非常严重的欺诈的例子——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
...
...
which is, I agree is rare because most scientists, as you said, this is also my opinion, are just trying to discover truth and do the best they can.
我同意这种情况很少见，因为正如你所说，这也是我的观点，大多数科学家只是试图发现真理并尽力而为。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, why else would you go into it?
好吧，不然你为什么要参与其中呢？
Because it's certainly not a profession to go into if you want to get rich.
因为如果你想致富，这肯定不是一个可以从事的职业。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
It's not the money, yes.
这不是钱，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it's probably not even a profession to go into if you want to get famous.
如果你想出名，这甚至可能不是一个可以从事的职业。
If you want to be famous, you should go to Hollywood or become a serial killer, because they'll make specials about it.
如果你想出名，你应该去好莱坞或者成为连环杀手，因为他们会制作特别节目。
Please don't.
请不要。
But please don't do either.
但请不要这样做。
No, Hollywood, I suppose for some is fine.
不，好莱坞，我想对某些人来说还不错。
But in any case, okay, so Kamerer, around 1907, 1906?
但无论如何，好吧，所以 Kamerer，1907 年、1906 年左右？
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
This is slightly before.
这是稍微以前的事了。
The controversy broke out after the First World War.
第一次世界大战后，争议爆发。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Great.
太棒了。
So, Kamerer-
那么，卡梅尔——
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Back then
那时
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
is gone.
消失了。
His toads, with their either ink or whatever, nuptial pads, they have to go back to mating on land.
他的蟾蜍，带着墨水或其他什么东西，婚垫，必须回到陆地上交配。
Speaker 3:
演讲者3：
There is so much NFL on ESPN right now.
ESPN 上现在有很多 NFL 节目。
Monday Night Football, plus pre-game and post-game.
周一橄榄球之夜，以及赛前和赛后。
NFL Live, NFL Prime Time.
NFL 直播，NFL 黄金时间。
Everything you need to stay on top of every game, every week.
每周掌握每场比赛所需的一切。
Unbelievable.
难以置信。
And now NFL Network is on the ESPN app.
现在 NFL Network 已登陆 ESPN 应用程序。
More football, more coverage, more ways to watch.
更多足球比赛、更多报道、更多观看方式。
Football's on all season long on ESPN and streaming on the ESPN app.
ESPN 提供整个赛季的足球赛事直播，并通过 ESPN 应用程序进行直播。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
So, this is, forget about that.
所以，这是，忘记那个。
We also had the Lysenko episode, that's a very big thing.
我们还有李森科的插曲，这是一件非常大的事情。
And then in the US, there was in the '70s and '80s, a researcher named McConnell, who did very different experiments, and he was also a character.
然后在美国，在七十年代和八十年代，有一个叫麦康奈尔的研究人员，他做了非常不同的实验，他也是一个人物。
So he was the Joker type of thing, and he published many of his results in a journal that he published that was called Worm's Breeder's Gazette, and had many cartoons and things like that.
所以他是小丑类型的人，他在他出版的一本名为《蠕虫饲养者公报》的期刊上发表了他的许多成果，并且有很多漫画和类似的东西。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So he started his own journal?
所以他开始写自己的日记了？
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Yes.
是的。
And but-
还有但是-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's one way to publish a lot.
这是发表大量内容的一种方式。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Yeah .
是的。
But he also published in very respected journals in parallel.
但他同时也在非常受尊敬的期刊上发表文章。
But he was a psychologist, American psychologist, and he worked on a worm, a flat worm, which is called planaria.
但他是一位心理学家，美国心理学家，他研究的是一种蠕虫，一种扁平虫，称为涡虫。
Which is very interesting.
这很有趣。
This is different than what we'll discuss today, different type of worm.
这与我们今天要讨论的不同类型的蠕虫不同。
You know worms are very common.
你知道蠕虫很常见。
So four out of five animals on this planet is a worm.
所以这个星球上五分之四的动物是蠕虫。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Really?
真的吗？
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Yes.
是的。
Numerically, if you just count the individuals.
如果只算人数的话。
So we are the exception.
所以我们是例外。
But I'll talk about a very different worm later.
但稍后我将讨论一种非常不同的蠕虫。
This is a flat worm.
这是一条扁平虫。
This is called planaria, and it is remarkable in many ways.
这就是涡虫，它在很多方面都很引人注目。
It was also a model that many people worked on, including the fathers of genetics, the people who started genetics, like Morgan, they worked on it in the beginning.
这也是许多人研究的模型，包括遗传学之父，那些开创遗传学的人，比如摩根，他们从一开始就研究它。
But it's very, very hard to study genetics in this worm because unlike us, unlike what we explained before about how we all develop from a sperm and an egg, these worms, most of the time reproduce just by fission.
但研究这种蠕虫的遗传学非常非常困难，因为与我们不同，与我们之前解释的我们如何从精子和卵子发育不同，这些蠕虫大多数时候只是通过裂变繁殖。
They tear themself apart.
他们将自己撕裂。
So they have a head and a tail, and the part of the head will just tear itself apart from the tail, and the head will grow a new tail, the tail will grow a new head.
所以它们有头和尾，头的一部分会从尾部撕下来，头会长出新的尾巴，尾部会长出新的头。
You can even cut them to 200 pieces.
您甚至可以将它们切成 200 块。
Each piece will grow into a new worm.
每一块都会长成一条新的蠕虫。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wild.
狂野。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
And they have centralized brains with lobes and everything, and even these degenerate eyes.
他们有中心化的大脑，有脑叶和一切，甚至还有这些退化的眼睛。
He studied these worms, and he said that he can teach them certain things, associations by pairing all...
他研究了这些蠕虫，他说他可以教它们某些东西，通过将所有蠕虫配对来进行联想……
I don't remember exactly what he did.
我不记得他具体做了什么。
I think it was either lights or electricity with-
我认为要么是灯，要么是电——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Shock them, I think.
我想，让他们震惊吧。
Yeah
是啊
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
...
...
with shock them and with other things, and he could train them to learn and remember particular things.
通过震惊他们和其他事情，他可以训练他们学习和记住特定的事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Like they might get shocked on one side of the tank-
就像他们可能会在坦克的一侧受到电击一样——
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Exactly
正是如此
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and then avoid that side of the tank.
然后避开水箱的那一侧。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then I guess the question is whether or not their ripped apart cells and their subsequent generations will know to avoid that side of the tank without having ever been exposed to the shock.
然后我想问题是，它们被撕裂的细胞和它们的后代是否会知道避开水箱的那一侧，而无需受到冲击。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Right.
对。
So without ever being exposed to the shock, or whether the new generation, the new heads, will be able to learn faster.
因此，在没有受到冲击的情况下，新一代、新领导人是否能够学得更快。
That's another, the subtlety that might happen, okay?
这是另一个可能发生的微妙之处，好吗？
And this is what he said happened.
这就是他所说的发生的事情。
He said he can teach them certain things, remove, cut off their heads, and new heads with all the brain will grow, and that it will contain the memory.
他说他可以教他们某些东西，去掉、砍掉他们的头，新的头和整个大脑就会长出来，而且里面会包含记忆。
This was the start of the controversy.
这就是争议的开始。
Not the end of it, only the beginning.
不是结束，只是开始。
Then he said something even much wilder, which is he can train them to learn certain things, and then just chop them up, put them in a blender, and feed them to other worms, because they are cannibalistic, they eat each other.
然后他说了更狂野的话，就是他可以训练它们学习某些东西，然后把它们切碎，放进搅拌机里，喂给其他蠕虫，因为它们是同类相食的，它们会互相吃掉。
And that the memory will transfer through feeding.
并且记忆会通过进食而转移。
This sounds-
这听起来——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Such a dramatic field.
如此戏剧性的领域。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Yeah.
是的。
And by the way, this opened the field.
顺便说一句，这打开了领域。
So people did experiments then not only in planaria, but in goldfish, fish, and certain rodents, and did these memory brain transfer essays, implanting brain.
于是人们不仅在涡虫身上做了实验，还在金鱼、鱼类和某些啮齿动物身上做了实验，做了这些记忆脑转移论文，植入大脑。
And this is back when they had an idea that some memories could be molecular, could have a molecular form, which is very appealing.
那时他们有一个想法，一些记忆可能是分子的，可能有分子形式，这是非常有吸引力的。
It's almost like science fiction.
这几乎就像科幻小说一样。
You can have a memory in a tube.
你可以在管子里拥有记忆。
Unlike the way we think about memory normally, which is something that is distributed in neuronal circuits and encoded in the strength of particular synapses and so on.
与我们通常思考记忆的方式不同，记忆是分布在神经元回路中并以特定突触的强度等编码的东西。
But the idea that you can take a memory and reduce it into a molecule and transfer it around is very, very interesting.
但是，你可以将一段记忆分解成一个分子，然后四处转移，这个想法非常非常有趣。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
So this is why it attracted so many people.
所以这也是它吸引这么多人的原因。
This ended up in a catastrophe.
这最终导致了一场灾难。
So there was an NIH investigation.
因此，NIH 进行了一项调查。
No one can replicate anything.
没有人可以复制任何东西。
It was a big mess.
真是一团糟。
Although there were always scientists who said, "Yes, we can replicate this and this." So they were in the background, okay?
尽管总是有科学家说：“是的，我们可以复制这个和这个。”所以他们在后台，好吗？
McConnell's stuff was different.
麦康奈尔的东西不同。
Again, people thought that there are problems replicating, but it wasn't necessarily about some people replicate, but it wasn't necessarily about replicating the whole thing.
同样，人们认为复制存在问题，但这不一定是某些人复制，但不一定是复制整个事情。
But the question was, did the memory, the transfer is specific, or is it an overall sensitization that transmits, and so on.
但问题是，记忆、传递是特定的，还是传递的整体敏化等等。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
You could imagine that what gets transmitted is a hypersensitivity to electricity as opposed to the specific location that the electricity was introduced.
您可以想象，传输的是对电力的过敏，而不是电力引入的特定位置。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Or even more than that, even just a hypersensitive in general.
甚至更重要的是，甚至只是一般的过敏症。
You're more vigilant, and you learn anything so faster.
你变得更加警惕，学东西也更快。
That's also a possibility.
这也是一种可能。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
But his problem wasn't the accusation.
但他的问题不是指控。
It was much worse that he was targeted by the Unabomber, this terrorist who sent letters with bombs to many scientists for 15 years.
更糟糕的是，他成为了大学炸弹客的目标，这个恐怖分子在 15 年来向许多科学家发送带有炸弹的信件。
And his assistant, again, it's the assistant, I think, exploded, and this is how his line of research ended.
他的助手，我认为，他的助手爆炸了，这就是他的研究路线的结束。
Just recently, a few years ago, a researcher from Boston, Mike Levin, and his postdoc, Tal Shomrat, replicated some of McConnell's experiment with the cutting of the head, but using very fancy equipment and automated tracking.
就在几年前，来自波士顿的研究人员迈克·莱文（Mike Levin）和他的博士后塔尔·肖姆拉特（Tal Shomrat）复制了麦康奈尔的一些头部切割实验，但使用了非常奇特的设备和自动跟踪。
And they could say that they can replicate some of his experiments.
他们可以说他们可以复制他的一些实验。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Really?
真的吗？
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And they don't open packages in that laboratory .
他们不在那个实验室打开包裹。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
They have interesting stories.
他们有有趣的故事。
You should have Mike over.
你应该让迈克过来。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
I'm familiar with- ...
我很熟悉——...
a bit of his work.
他的一些工作。
I didn't realize they had done that experiment.
我没有意识到他们做了那个实验。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So they published it, yeah, a few years ago.
所以他们在几年前出版了它。
And this is very interesting, but of course, they don't know how it happens.
这很有趣，但当然，他们不知道这是如何发生的。
The mechanism is unclear.
其机制尚不清楚。
McConnell went a step further than this, and what's fascinating is that these are experiments that were done in the '70s and '80s.
麦康奈尔比这更进一步，令人着迷的是这些实验是在 70 年代和 80 年代完成的。
He said that he can not only transfer the memories through chopped animals, but he can take the animal that learns and break it down into different fractions.
他说，他不仅可以通过切碎的动物转移记忆，还可以将学习的动物分解成不同的部分。
So just the DNA, just the RNA, just the fats, the proteins, the sugars.
所以只有 DNA、RNA、脂肪、蛋白质、糖。
And he said that the fraction that transmit the memory is the RNA.
他说传递记忆的部分是RNA。
And this is very, very interesting because it was a long time before everything that we know about RNA today.
这非常非常有趣，因为那是在我们今天对 RNA 的了解之前的很长一段时间。
I'll soon go into my research, explain what we do, and then you'll see that you can actually feed worms with RNA and have many things happen.
我很快就会进入我的研究，解释我们所做的事情，然后你就会发现，你实际上可以用 RNA 喂养蠕虫，并且会发生很多事情。
Everyone knows this is true.
每个人都知道这是真的。
Okay?
好的？
So this is why it was so appealing to go back to that and study.
这就是为什么回到那里学习如此有吸引力。
By the way, at the time, it became popular knowledge.
顺便说一句，这在当时已经成为流行知识。
Everyone knew these experiments.
每个人都知道这些实验。
There was a "Star Trek" episode about it from '84.
84 年的《星际迷航》有一集就是关于这个的。
There are comics books about it, books about it.
有关于它的漫画书，关于它的书。
And people were eating RNA because they thought that it was RNA memory.
人们吃RNA是因为他们认为这是RNA记忆。
This was, of course, complete nonsense.
当然，这完全是无稽之谈。
But it made a lot of noise in these years, which is part of the reason it was so toxic until recently.
但这些年来它引起了很大的噪音，这也是它直到最近才如此有毒的部分原因。
You couldn't touch it because it was considered pseudoscience, like Lysenko, like Kamerer, and all of it.
你不能碰它，因为它被认为是伪科学，就像李森科、卡默雷尔等等。
So this was just something you didn't want to touch at all.
所以这只是你根本不想碰的东西。
Okay?
好的？
And then we go back to these studies about inheritance of memory or inheritance of acquired traits in other organisms, in mammals, in humans.
然后我们回到这些关于其他生物体、哺乳动物和人类的记忆遗传或后天性状遗传的研究。
And aside from the dark cloud that these episodes left, there were also theoretical problems of why this can't happen, barriers that have to be breached for this to happen.
除了这些事件留下的乌云之外，还存在为什么这种情况不可能发生的理论问题，以及必须突破的障碍才能发生。
And you can talk about many different types of barriers, and you can also narrow it down to two main barriers.
您可以谈论许多不同类型的障碍，也可以将其范围缩小到两个主要障碍。
First barrier, we mentioned it.
第一个障碍，我们提到过。
This is the separation of the soma from the germline.
这是体细胞与种系的分离。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
The somatic cells, they can change in response to experience.
体细胞可以根据经验而改变。
The sperm and the egg, the so-called germ cells, cannot.
精子和卵子，即所谓的生殖细胞，不能。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
They are-
他们是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's the idea
这就是这个想法
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
...
...
or they are isolated from what happens in the soma.
或者它们与躯体中发生的事情隔离。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Okay?
好吧？
The man who first thought about this barrier is called Weismann, August Weismann.
第一个想到这个屏障的人叫韦斯曼，奥古斯特·韦斯曼。
This was in the 19th century.
那是在19世纪。
So it is called today the Weismann barrier.
所以今天它被称为魏斯曼势垒。
Separation of the soma from the germline, only the germline transmitting from it to the next generation.
将体细胞与种系分离，只有种系从其传递到下一代。
And this is also called the second law of biology, so this is very, very fundamental.
这也被称为生物学第二定律，所以这是非常非常基本的。
So natural selection is the first one.
所以自然选择是第一个。
This is the second one because it's so important to how we work, to how our bodies work.
这是第二个，因为它对于我们的工作方式、我们的身体如何工作非常重要。
Weismann, by the way, thought that if you will have direct influence of the environment on the germ cells, then perhaps this could transfer to the next generation.
顺便说一句，魏斯曼认为，如果环境对生殖细胞有直接影响，那么也许这种影响可以转移到下一代。
So he wasn't as strict as his barrier suggests, but this is not how most people remember it.
所以他并不像他的屏障所暗示的那么严格，但这并不是大多数人记忆中的样子。
Okay.
好的。
But he thought that this is unnecessary.
但他认为这是没有必要的。
It's possible that natural selection can explain everything.
自然选择可能可以解释一切。
And he compared it to a boat, which is in the ocean.
他将其比作海洋中的一艘船。
It is sailing, and it has a sail open.
它正在航行，并且已张开帆。
So you don't have to assume that it has an engine.
所以你不必假设它有引擎。
The wind is blowing.
风在吹。
You don't have to assume other things.
你不必假设其他事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
The natural selection might be enough.
自然选择可能就足够了。
So this barrier is still standing, but not entirely.
所以这个障碍仍然存在，但不是完全存在。
It is breached in some organisms.
它在某些生物体中被破坏。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
We'll go into that in a second.
我们稍后会讨论这个问题。
The other barrier is the...
另一个障碍是...
Now, to understand the other barrier, we have to talk about epigenetics.
现在，为了了解另一个障碍，我们必须谈谈表观遗传学。
We have to define epigenetics and what it is.
我们必须定义表观遗传学以及它是什么。
Okay?
好的？
And epigenetics is another term which people misuse horribly and say about everything that is epigenetics, even people from the field.
表观遗传学是另一个被人们严重滥用的术语，它谈论表观遗传学的一切，甚至是来自该领域的人。
Okay?
好的？
The word itself, the term was defined in the '40s by Waddington, Conrad Waddington, and he talked about the interactions between genes and their products that, in the end, bring about the phenotype or the consequences, and how genes influence development.
这个词本身，这个术语是由沃丁顿 (Conrad Waddington) 在 40 年代定义的，他谈到了基因与其产物之间的相互作用，最终带来表型或后果，以及基因如何影响发育。
Later, people discovered mechanisms that change the action of genes, the different mechanisms, and started talking about these as epigenetics.
后来，人们发现了改变基因作用的机制，不同的机制，并开始将这些称为表观遗传学。
For example, the DNA is built out of four basic elements.
例如，DNA 由四种基本元素组成。
These are the-
这些是-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Nucleotides
核苷酸
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
...
...
A, T, G, and C, right?
A、T、G、C，对吗？
And they can be chemically modified.
它们可以进行化学修饰。
So in addition to just the information that you have in the sequence of the DNA, you also have the information in the modification of the bases.
因此，除了 DNA 序列中的信息外，您还可以获得碱基修饰的信息。
The most common modification that has been studied more than others is modification of the letter C, of cytosine, methylation, the addition of a methyl group to this C.
最常见的修饰是对字母 C 的修饰、胞嘧啶的修饰、甲基化、在该 C 上添加甲基。
And this can be replicated, so after the DNA, the cells divide and replicate their genetic material.
而且这是可以复制的，因此在 DNA 之后，细胞会分裂并复制它们的遗传物质。
In certain cases also, these chemical modifications can be added on and replicate and be preserved.
在某些情况下，这些化学修饰也可以添加、复制和保存。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
For those who aren't as familiar with thinking about genes, and gene structure, and epigenetics, could we think of these, you mentioned the four nucleotide bases, TGA, but could we imagine that through things like methylation, it's sort of like taking the primary colors and changing one of them a little bit, changing the hue just slightly, which then opens up an enormous number of new options of color integration.
对于那些不熟悉基因、基因结构和表观遗传学的人来说，我们能想到这些吗？你提到了四种核苷酸碱基，TGA，但是我们能想象一下，通过甲基化之类的东西，这有点像采用原色并稍微改变其中一种，稍微改变色调，然后打开大量新的颜色整合选项。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
Just more combinations, more ways, more information.
只是更多的组合、更多的方式、更多的信息。
There are the modifications of the DNA, and also there are the modifications of the proteins which condense the DNA, that are called histones.
有 DNA 的修饰，也有浓缩 DNA 的蛋白质（称为组蛋白）的修饰。
So they are also modified by many different chemicals.
因此它们也被许多不同的化学物质改性。
Again, methylation is a very common modification.
同样，甲基化是一种非常常见的修饰。
Acetylation, even serotonin.
乙酰化，甚至血清素。
There's serotonylation of histones.
组蛋白存在血清素化。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Serotonin.
血清素。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Right.
对。
This is a new paper from Nature from a few years ago.
这是几年前《自然》杂志上的一篇新论文。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Can change DNA.
可以改变DNA。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Not the DNA itself, but the protein that condenses it.
不是DNA本身，而是浓缩它的蛋白质。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Essentially how, in the analogy I used before of how the thread is wrapped around the spool, essentially.
本质上，在我之前使用的类比中，线是如何缠绕在线轴上的。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Yes.
是的。
And this determines the degree of condensation of the DNA, whether the gene is now more or less accessible, and therefore can perhaps be expressed more or less.
这决定了 DNA 的浓缩程度，无论该基因现在是或多或少可接近的，因此也许可以或多或少地表达。
This is one way to affect the gene expression and bring about the function of the gene.
这是影响基因表达并实现基因功能的一种方式。
There are many additional ways, it's not the only one.
还有很多其他方法，这不是唯一的一种。
So then when all of this was starting to be elucidated, people talked about epigenetics, they started talking about these modifications, forgot the original definition.
所以当所有这一切开始被阐明时，人们谈论表观遗传学，他们开始谈论这些修饰，忘记了最初的定义。
And when people said epigenetics, they talk about methylation and things like that.
当人们谈到表观遗传学时，他们谈论的是甲基化之类的东西。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And, again, to just frame this up, so we could imagine two identical twins, so-called monozygotic twins.
再次，为了概括这一点，我们可以想象两个同卵双胞胎，即所谓的同卵双胞胎。
We could go a step further and say that they're monochorionic if they were in the same placental sac-
我们可以更进一步说，如果它们位于同一个胎盘囊中，那么它们就是单绒毛膜的——
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
because twins can be raised in separate sacs, slightly different early environments.
因为双胞胎可以在不同的囊中长大，早期环境略有不同。
But let's say those two twins are raised separately.
但假设这两对双胞胎是分开抚养的。
One experiences certain things, the other, other things.
一个人经历某些事情，另一个人经历其他事情。
They eat different foods, et cetera.
他们吃不同的食物，等等。
And there is the possibility through epigenetic mechanisms that through methylation, acetylation, serotonin production, et cetera, that the expression of certain genes in one of the twins could be amplified relative to the other.
通过表观遗传机制，通过甲基化、乙酰化、血清素产生等，双胞胎中的一个的某些基因的表达可能相对于另一个被放大。
Correct?
正确的？
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Right.
对。
So we know that even totally identical twins, genetically they're identical, but they look different, and they are different.
所以我们知道，即使是完全相同的双胞胎，他们的基因也是相同的，但他们看起来不同，而且是不同的。
Because we all experience it.
因为我们都经历过。
And this can happen because of these epigenetic changes, okay?
这可能是由于这些表观遗传变化而发生的，好吗？
Or it can happen because of other mechanisms, because genes respond to the environment.
或者它可能是由于其他机制而发生的，因为基因会对环境做出反应。
Genes don't exist in a vacuum.
基因并不存在于真空中。
Genes need to be activated by transcription factors, and there's a lot of machinery that is responsible for making genes function.
基因需要被转录因子激活，有很多机制负责使基因发挥作用。
So we are a combination of our genetic material and the environment.
所以我们是遗传物质和环境的结合体。
Okay?
好的？
So when people talk about epigenetics and talk just about the modification, they're also not exactly right.
因此，当人们谈论表观遗传学并仅仅谈论修饰时，他们也不完全正确。
My definition of epigenetics is inheritance, which occurs either across cell division or, more interestingly also for this podcast now, across generations, not because of changes to the DNA sequence, but through other mechanisms.
我对表观遗传学的定义是遗传，它要么发生在细胞分裂过程中，要么更有趣的是，对于这个播客来说，它发生在世代之间，不是因为 DNA 序列的变化，而是通过其他机制。
I think this is the most robust definition that allows you to understand what you're talking about.
我认为这是最有力的定义，可以让您理解您所谈论的内容。
And then the question is, if this happens, then what are the molecules that actually transmit information across generations?
那么问题是，如果发生这种情况，那么真正跨代传递信息的分子是什么？
Are they these chemical modifications to the DNA or to the proteins that condense the DNA?
它们是对 DNA 或浓缩 DNA 的蛋白质的化学修饰吗？
Or are there other agents that transmit the information?
或者有其他代理来传输信息吗？
And which molecules can do it?
哪些分子可以做到这一点？
And I actually think that the most interesting players today are RNA molecules.
事实上，我认为当今最有趣的参与者是 RNA 分子。
Okay?
好的？
But before I go into that, I just want to say that when we talk about the barriers to epigenetic inheritance or the barriers to inheritance of acquired traits, in addition to the separation of the soma from the germ that we discussed, the other main barrier, it's called epigenetic reprogramming.
但在我进入这个之前，我只想说，当我们谈论表观遗传的障碍或获得性状遗传的障碍时，除了我们讨论的体细胞与胚芽的分离之外，另一个主要障碍是表观遗传重编程。
Which is that we acquired our cells, the genetic material in our cells acquires all kinds of changes.
就是我们获得了我们的细胞，我们细胞中的遗传物质发生了各种各样的变化。
These chemical changes, modifications we discussed.
我们讨论了这些化学变化、修饰。
But these modifications are largely erased in the transition between generations.
但这些修改在代际过渡中很大程度上被抹去了。
So in the germline, in the sperm and the egg, and also in the early embryo, most of the modifications are removed, so we can start a blank slate based on the genetic instructions.
因此，在种系中，在精子和卵子中，以及在早期胚胎中，大部分修饰都被删除了，因此我们可以根据遗传指令开始一张白纸。
And this is crucial.
这一点至关重要。
Otherwise, according to the theory, it's not clear that it's actually true, because in some organisms, it doesn't really happen.
否则，根据该理论，尚不清楚它是否真的如此，因为在某些生物体中，它并没有真正发生。
We will not develop according to the species' typical genetic instructions.
我们不会按照物种典型的遗传指令发展。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
So to preserve this, we erase all these modifications and start anew.
因此，为了保留这一点，我们删除所有这些修改并重新开始。
And this is in mammals and in humans, this is largely true.
对于哺乳动物和人类来说，这在很大程度上是正确的。
Most of the modifications in the sperm and in the egg are removed, so about 90% of them.
精子和卵子中的大部分修饰都被去除，因此大约有 90% 的修饰被去除。
Some remain, which could be interesting.
有些仍然存在，这可能很有趣。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So the idea, if I understand correctly, is that There's some advantage to wiping the slate clean and returning to the original plan.
所以，如果我理解正确的话，这个想法是，把石板擦干净并回到原来的计划有一些好处。
In the context of the IKEA furniture analogy, the instruction book-
在宜家家具类比的背景下，说明书-
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
is the one that's issued to everybody, or every cell.
是发给每个人或每个细胞的。
Only certain instructions are used for certain cells, say a skin cell or a neuron or a liver cell or any other cell for that matter.
仅对某些细胞使用某些指令，例如皮肤细胞、神经元、肝细胞或任何其他细胞。
Through the course of the lifespan of the organism, those specific instructions are adjusted somewhat.
在有机体的生命周期中，这些具体指令会有所调整。
Okay, so maybe like IKEA furniture, sometimes they sent you seven, not eight, of particular screws, or they sent you the proper number, but you put them in the wrong place, and it sort of changes the way that the thing works a little bit.
好吧，也许就像宜家家具一样，有时他们给你发了七个而不是八个特定的螺丝，或者他们给你发了正确的数量，但你把它们放在了错误的地方，这有点改变了东西的工作方式。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Once that, assuming furniture could reproduce-
一旦如此，假设家具可以复制——
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
but here in the analogy of the furniture as the cell or the organ mates with another organism, that needs to be replicated.
但在这里，家具就像细胞或器官与另一个有机体交配一样，需要复制。
And so the idea is to take the instruction book, go through and erase all the pen and pencil marks, erase all those additional little modifications that the owner used or introduced to it, and return to the original instruction book.
因此，我们的想法是拿起说明书，检查并擦除所有钢笔和铅笔标记，擦除所有者使用或引入的所有额外的小修改，然后返回到原始说明书。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Right.
对。
Because if you want to bring back the instruction book, you want it to have all the potential to make all the furniture.
因为如果你想带回说明书，你希望它拥有制作所有家具的所有潜力。
You don't want it to be restricted to the ones that you made in the particular room.
您不希望它仅限于您在特定房间中制作的内容。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So it's essentially the opposite of acquired traits and characteristics based on your, what we say in biology geek speak, lineage-based experience, but what your parents experience, right?
所以它本质上与基于你的后天特征和特征相反，我们用生物学极客的话来说，基于血统的经验，但你父母的经历，对吗？
In some ways, we want to eliminate all that and go back to just the genes they provided.
在某些方面，我们希望消除所有这些并回到它们提供的基因。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Yes.
是的。
But it's more complicated than that.
但事情比这更复杂。
It's more complicated than that because we have some very striking examples, even in mammals, where some of the marks are maintained.
事情比这更复杂，因为我们有一些非常引人注目的例子，即使在哺乳动物中，也保留了一些标记。
For example, the classic example is imprinting.
比如，最经典的例子就是印记。
Imprinting is a very interesting phenomenon.
印记是一个非常有趣的现象。
The way DNA works is that you inherit a copy for every chromosome from your mother and your father.
DNA 的工作方式是，您从母亲和父亲那里继承了每条染色体的副本。
And then you have in every cell of your body two copies, if you're a human, of every chromosome.
如果你是人类，你身体的每个细胞中的每条染色体都有两个副本。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
And then, so every gene is represented twice.
然后，每个基因都被代表两次。
These are called alleles, the different versions of the genes.
这些被称为等位基因，即基因的不同版本。
And the thought is that once you enter in the next generation, the two copies that you inherited are equal.
这个想法是，一旦你进入下一代，你继承的两个副本是平等的。
It doesn't matter whether you acquire them from your mother or from your father, right?
无论你是从你的母亲还是从你的父亲那里获得它们并不重要，对吧？
There are some situations where it does matter.
在某些情况下它确实很重要。
There is a limited number of genes that are called imprinted genes, where it does matter whether you inherit it from your mother or your father, and this is happening through epigenetic inheritance, not because of changes to the DNA sequence, but because of maintenance of these chemical modifications across generations.
有有限数量的基因被称为印记基因，无论你是从母亲还是父亲那里继承它，这都非常重要，这是通过表观遗传发生的，不是因为 DNA 序列的变化，而是因为这些化学修饰在代代相传中得以维持。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And as I recall from the beautiful work of Catherine Dulac at Harvard, that especially in the brain, there is evidence that some cells contain the complete genome from mom or the complete genome from dad.
我记得哈佛大学凯瑟琳·杜拉克 (Catherine Dulac) 的出色工作，特别是在大脑中，有证据表明某些细胞包含来自母亲的完整基因组或来自父亲的完整基因组。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
And it can also switch during your life.
它也可以在你的一生中转变。
So her work showed that early on in your life, it's different whether you express the maternal or paternal copy than when you are more mature.
所以她的研究表明，在你生命的早期，无论你表达母性还是父性拷贝，与你更成熟时相比是不同的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So parents and children take note.
所以家长和孩子要注意了。
For those of you that are saying, oh, the child is more like you or more like me, that can change across the lifespan.
对于那些说，哦，孩子更像你或者更像我的人，这可能会在一生中发生变化。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And if you're thinking about your parental lineage and wondering whether or not you, quote-unquote, inherited some sort of trait from mother or from father, it can be, of course, both, or it can be just one or just the other, which I think most parents tend to see and describe in their children from time to time.
如果你正在思考你的父母血统，并想知道你是否从母亲或父亲那里继承了某种特征，当然，它可能是两者兼而有之，也可能只是其中之一，我认为大多数父母往往会时不时地在他们的孩子身上看到和描述这一点。
"That's just like the father" or "That's just like the mother," for instance.
例如，“那就像父亲”或“那就像母亲”。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Right.
对。
But it's important to note that in this situation, the environment played no role.
但值得注意的是，在这种情况下，环境没有发挥任何作用。
This was just whether it passed to the mother or the father.
这只是遗传给母亲还是父亲的问题。
It's not that something that happened to the mother or the father affected this.
并不是因为母亲或父亲发生的事情影响了这一点。
Okay?
好的？
So this is slightly different.
所以这略有不同。
The question is now, can the environment change the heritable material?
现在的问题是，环境能改变遗传物质吗？
Okay?
好的？
So it's very important to understand that there is a difference between nurture and nature, and this is very confusing, and people are-- It's a little subtle.
因此，了解后天和先天之间的区别非常重要，这是非常令人困惑的，而且人们——这有点微妙。
So for example, people tell me, "I'm growing horses for many years, and I just know that this horse has a particular character.
例如，人们告诉我，“我养马很多年了，我只知道这匹马有一种特殊的性格。
It's very different from the other horse, and so this is epigenetic inheritance." No. It could be just genetically determined.
它与其他马非常不同，所以这是表观遗传。”不，这可能只是基因决定的。
Yes, this horse inherited a different set of genetic instructions, so it is different.
是的，这匹马继承了一套不同的遗传指令，所以它是不同的。
It doesn't have to be about epigenetics.
它不一定与表观遗传学有关。
Epigenetic inheritance means that the environment of the parents somehow changed the children.
表观遗传意味着父母的环境在某种程度上改变了孩子。
Okay?
好的？
And there are these two main barriers that are serious bottlenecks that we have to think what type of molecule and how they can be bridged.
这两个主要障碍是严重的瓶颈，我们必须考虑什么类型的分子以及如何跨越它们。
So one possibility is that it's really this limited number of chemical modifications that survive, which is about 10% or so.
因此，一种可能性是，幸存下来的化学修饰数量确实有限，大约为 10% 左右。
That could be very interesting.
这可能非常有趣。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Not a small number.
不是一个小数目。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Not a small number, but perhaps.
虽然不是一个小数字，但也许吧。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Perhaps.
也许吧。
Okay?
好的？
This is one possibility.
这是一种可能性。
The other possibility, that there are other mechanisms.
另一种可能性是存在其他机制。
The situation now in humans is that it's just really unclear what transmits, if it can transmit, and which molecule does it.
目前人类的情况是，我们真的不清楚什么可以传播，是否可以传播，以及是哪个分子进行传播。
We'll talk later about other organisms where it is a lot more clear.
稍后我们将讨论其他更清楚的生物体。
But in humans, and in mammals in general, there are many examples for environments that change the children.
但在人类和整个哺乳动物中，有很多环境改变孩子的例子。
Whether you need to invoke an epigenetic mechanism to explain this phenomena, this is unclear.
是否需要调用表观遗传机制来解释这种现象，目前尚不清楚。
First of all, because it's hard to separate nurture from nurture, and second, because the mechanism is just not understood.
首先，因为很难将教养与教养区分开来，其次，因为其机制尚不清楚。
So there are classic examples.
所以就有了经典的例子。
In humans, there were periods of famine, starvation in different places in the world, in the Netherlands, in China, in Russia, where people did huge epidemiological study to study the next generations and saw that the children of women who were starved during pregnancy are different.
人类在世界不同地方都经历过饥荒、饥饿的时期，在荷兰、在中国、在俄罗斯，人们进行了大量的流行病学研究来研究下一代，发现怀孕期间挨饿的妇女的孩子是不同的。
Are different in many ways.
在很多方面都不同。
They have different birth weight, glucose sensitivity, and also higher chances of getting some neurological diseases.
他们的出生体重、葡萄糖敏感性不同，患某些神经系统疾病的机会也较高。
And this has been shown in very large studies.
这已经在非常大的研究中得到了证明。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is there ever an instance in which starvation or hardship of some kind, some challenge, a sensory challenge, or survival-based challenge led to adaptive traits?
是否有过这样的例子：饥饿或某种困难、某种挑战、感官挑战或基于生存的挑战会导致适应性特征？
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Yes.
是的。
There are in different organisms.
不同的生物体内都有。
It could be as a result of a trade-off, so there could be a downside as well.
这可能是权衡的结果，因此也可能存在缺点。
But for example, there are two examples that come into mind.
但例如，我想到了两个例子。
One of them is that if you stress male mice or rats, I don't remember, this is work of Isabelle Mansuy in the ETH in Switzerland.
其中之一是，如果你强调雄性小鼠或大鼠，我不记得了，这是瑞士联邦理工学院 Isabelle Mansuy 的工作。
If you stress the males, you can do it in many different ways.
如果你给雄性施加压力，你可以用很多不同的方式来做到这一点。
I don't remember exactly how they did, but you can separate them from their mothers, you can do social defeat, all kinds of things, then the next generations are less stressed.
我不记得他们具体是怎么做的，但是你可以将他们与他们的母亲分开，你可以做社会失败，各种各样的事情，那么下一代的压力就会减轻。
They show less anxiety.
他们表现出较少的焦虑。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So their threshold for stress is higher.
所以他们的压力阈值更高。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Yes.
是的。
However, I think they have memory deficits and other metabolic problems.
然而，我认为他们有记忆缺陷和其他代谢问题。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Which may be an advantage for dealing with stress.
这可能是应对压力的一个优势。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Could be.
可能是。
It could.
可以的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
I don't have any direct evidence of that, but there's some simmering ideas that our ability to anchor our thoughts in the past, present, or future seems very adaptive-
我没有任何直接证据证明这一点，但有一些酝酿已久的想法认为，我们将思想锚定在过去、现在或未来的能力似乎非常具有适应性——
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in certain contexts.
在某些情况下。
In other contexts, it can keep us ruminating and not-
在其他情况下，它可以让我们思考而不是——
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
adaptively present to our current challenges.
适应性地呈现我们当前的挑战。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Another example is that nicotine exposure, this is I think the work of Oliver Rando from UMass, is, if I'm not mistaken, again, these are not my studies, but they improve the tolerance to exposure to similar drugs in the next generation.
另一个例子是尼古丁暴露，我认为这是麻省大学奥利弗·兰多的工作，如果我没记错的话，这些不是我的研究，但它们提高了下一代对接触类似药物的耐受性。
The interesting thing here is that it's very nonspecific.
有趣的是，它非常不具体。
So you treat them with nicotine, but then in the next generation, they are more tolerant to nicotine, but also to other, I think cocaine or-
所以你用尼古丁治疗他们，但在下一代，他们对尼古丁更耐受，而且对其他，我认为可卡因或-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That sort of makes sense to me because, obviously nicotine activates the cholinergic system, the dopaminergic system, epinephrine, and et cetera.
这对我来说是有道理的，因为显然尼古丁会激活胆碱能系统、多巴胺能系统、肾上腺素等等。
And you can imagine that there's crossover because other drugs like cocaine, amphetamine mainly target the catecholamines, so the dopamine and norepinephrine.
你可以想象这是交叉的，因为其他药物如可卡因、安非他明主要针对儿茶酚胺，所以多巴胺和去甲肾上腺素。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
In this particular study, if I remember correctly, they show that this happens, this heritable effect, even if you use an antagonist to block the nicotine receptor.
在这项特殊的研究中，如果我没记错的话，他们表明即使你使用拮抗剂来阻断尼古丁受体，这种遗传效应也会发生。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wow.
哇。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
So it's something more about clearance of xenobiotics and hepatic functions that is transmitted and is very nonspecific.
因此，这更多的是关于异生物质的清除和肝脏功能的传播，并且非常非特异性。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What I love about all the examples you've given today, and especially that one, is, and I hope that people-- If you're just listening, I'm smiling because biology is so cryptic sometimes.
我喜欢你今天给出的所有例子，尤其是那个例子，我希望人们——如果你只是在听，我会微笑，因为生物学有时是如此神秘。
The obvious mechanism is rarely the one that's actually at play.
显而易见的机制很少是真正发挥作用的机制。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And people always ask, "Well, why?
人们总是问：“那么，为什么呢？
Why is it like this?" And I always say, "The one thing I know for sure is that I wasn't consulted at the design phase." And if anyone claims they were, then you definitely want to back away very fast.
为什么会这样？”我总是说，“我确定的一件事是，在设计阶段没有征求我的意见。”如果有人声称他们是，那么你肯定想快速后退。
And I-
而我——
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
And there could be so many trade-offs.
可能会有很多权衡。
So many trade-offs.
如此多的权衡。
So, for example, we studied, and also many other people studied, effects, these are in worms, we'll go deep into that in a second, but that show that when you starve them, the next generations live longer.
例如，我们研究了，也有许多其他人研究了蠕虫的影响，我们稍后会深入探讨，但这表明，当你让它们挨饿时，下一代会活得更长。
And this, I think, could be a trade-off with other things like fertility.
我认为，这可能是与生育率等其他因素的权衡。
So the next generations are more sick and less fertile.
因此，下一代人患病率更高，生育能力也更差。
And perhaps because of this, they live longer.
也许正因为如此，他们才活得更久。
So it's not necessarily a good thing, okay?
所以这不一定是好事，好吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I don't want to draw you off course, because this is magnificent what you're doing and splaying out for us here.
我不想让你偏离路线，因为你在这里为我们所做的事情和所做的一切都是伟大的。
But do you recall there was a few years ago, it actually ended very tragically.
但你还记得吗，几年前，其实结局很悲惨。
It was an example, I think it was down in San Diego County, there was a cult of sorts that were interested in living forever.
这是一个例子，我认为是在圣地亚哥县，有一个对永生感兴趣的邪教。
And so they castrated, the males self-castrated themselves-
于是他们就阉割了，男性自我阉割了自己——
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Wow
哇
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in the idea that somehow maintaining some prepubescent state or reverting to a pseudo-prepubescent state would somehow extend longevity.
认为以某种方式维持某种青春期前状态或恢复到伪青春期前状态会以某种方式延长寿命。
The idea that sexual behavior somehow limited lifespan, this has been an idea that's been thrown around in the kind of more wacky longevity communities.
性行为会在某种程度上限制寿命的想法，在一些更古怪的长寿社区中已经被广泛传播。
They also shaved their heads.
他们还剃了光头。
They also all wore the same sneakers, but then they also all committed suicide right as the Hale-Bopp comment came through town.
他们都穿着同样的运动鞋，但当海尔-波普的评论传遍全城时，他们也都自杀了。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Wow.
哇。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But that's just but one example of many cults aimed at sort of-- That obviously was not life extension, that was life truncation-
但这只是许多邪教的一个例子，其目的是——这显然不是延长生命，而是截断生命——
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Mm
毫米
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
but aimed at kind of eternal life or some sort of through caloric restriction.
但旨在某种永生或某种通过热量限制。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's right.
没错。
This cult also was very into the whole idea that through caloric restriction, we can live much longer, which may actually turn out to be true.
这个邪教还非常相信通过限制热量，我们可以活得更久，这实际上可能是真的。
I think it's still debated.
我认为这仍然存在争议。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hence all the debate about intermittent fasting, et cetera.
因此，关于间歇性禁食等的所有争论。
But also, it is known that if you overeat, you shorten life.
而且，众所周知，如果吃得过多，就会缩短寿命。
This is clear.
这很清楚。
It's known that big-bodied members of a species live far shorter lives than the smaller members-
众所周知，一个物种中体型较大的成员的寿命比体型较小的成员要短得多——
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
a Great Dane versus a Chihuahua, for instance.
例如，大丹犬与吉娃娃犬。
So there is some sort of shards of truths in all of these things, but it seems to me that the real question is like, what is the real mechanism and why would something like this exist?
因此，所有这些事情都有某种事实的碎片，但在我看来，真正的问题是，真正的机制是什么以及为什么会存在这样的东西？
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And why questions are very dangerous in biology, right?
为什么问题在生物学中非常危险，对吧？
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Right.
对。
But very interesting also.
但也很有趣。
And so when it comes to metabolic changes and nutrition, there are numerous examples where you either overfeed or starve and get effects in the next generations.
因此，当谈到代谢变化和营养时，有很多例子表明，你要么过度喂养，要么挨饿，并对下一代产生影响。
Sometimes the effects contrast depending on the way you do this.
有时，效果会根据您执行此操作的方式而有所不同。
Again, we don't do any of that in mammals, but people show that Starving or overfeeding the mothers or the fathers changes the body weight of the next generation and also the glucose tolerance and also reproductive success.
再说一次，我们没有在哺乳动物身上做任何这样的事情，但人们表明，饥饿或过度喂养母亲或父亲会改变下一代的体重，也会改变葡萄糖耐量和繁殖成功率。
And so the fact that there's an effect, that something transmits this, is clear.
因此，事实是存在一种效应，即某种东西会传递这种效应，这一事实是显而易见的。
The question is, how miraculous is it, and whether you need new biology and epigenetics to explain it.
问题是，它到底有多神奇，是否需要新的生物学和表观遗传学来解释它。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
What do I mean by that?
我这么说是什么意思？
If you affect the next generation, it doesn't necessarily have to go through the oocyte or the sperm and involve the epigenome.
如果影响下一代，不一定要通过卵母细胞或精子并涉及表观基因组。
You change the metabolism of the animal as it develops, and obviously it will affect it.
随着动物的发育，你改变了它的新陈代谢，显然这会影响它。
When you, for example, starve women that are pregnant, as happened during these famous starvation studies, the baby's already in utero, exposed directly to the environment.
例如，当你让怀孕的妇女挨饿时，正如这些著名的饥饿研究中所发生的那样，婴儿已经在子宫内，直接暴露在环境中。
So it's not even a heritable effect.
所以它甚至不是一个可遗传的效应。
The baby is itself affected.
宝宝本身也会受到影响。
It's a direct effect.
这是直接的影响。
Very interesting, important, and has many implications, and it will be separate from the genetics.
非常有趣、重要，并且有很多影响，而且它将与遗传学分开。
You have to take it into account to understand what's going on.
您必须考虑到这一点才能了解发生了什么。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
It doesn't require necessarily new biology and new biology of inheritance.
它不一定需要新的生物学和新的遗传生物学。
Not only is the embryo affected, the embryo while in utero already has germ cells.
不仅胚胎受到影响，胚胎在子宫内就已经有了生殖细胞。
So it's also the next generation, so is directly exposed, and you don't need any new biology necessarily to explain it, and it doesn't have to involve epigenetics or epigenetics yet.
所以它也是下一代，所以是直接暴露的，你不一定需要什么新的生物学来解释它，也不一定要涉及到表观遗传学或者表观遗传学。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's clear to me that in the female fetus, the total number of eggs that she will someday produce and potentially have fertilized by sperm exist.
我很清楚，在女性胎儿中，存在着她有一天会产生并可能与精子受精的卵子总数。
But in males with a 60-day sperm cycle, leads me to the question, do fetal males, males as fetuses, living as fetuses in their moms, already start producing sperm, or it's the primordial cells that give rise to sperm?
但在精子周期为 60 天的男性中，我想到了一个问题：男性胎儿，作为胎儿的男性，作为胎儿生活在母亲体内，是否已经开始产生精子，或者是原始细胞产生精子？
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
So I'm not an expert, so I don't want to go into the details of exactly when in mammals.
所以我不是专家，所以我不想详细讨论哺乳动物的具体时间。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sure.
当然。
That's okay.
没关系。
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
But yes, exposure of the mother also affect eventually the transmission of the father of genetic information for the sperm's father.
但是，是的，母亲的暴露最终也会影响父亲对精子父亲的遗传信息的传递。
And there are also many examples of just stressing the fathers affecting their sperm and affecting the next generation.
还有很多例子只是强调父亲会影响他们的精子并影响下一代。
There, if you go to the F2 generation, so if you go two generations down the road, not to the kids, but to the grandkids, then it is a real epigenetic effect because you examine something that happens, although the next generation was never exposed to the original challenge.
在那里，如果你进入F2代，那么如果你在路上走了两代，不是孩子们，而是孙子们，那么这是一个真正的表观遗传效应，因为你检查发生的事情，尽管下一代从未面临最初的挑战。
So when we say about epigenetic inheritance in through the paternal lineage, through the fathers, we talk about two generations, and when you go through the mother, it's three generations to when you need to invoke some real epigenetic mechanism.
因此，当我们说通过父系血统、通过父亲进行表观遗传时，我们谈论的是两代，而当你通过母亲时，则需要调用一些真正的表观遗传机制时，就需要三代了。
And there, the evidence becomes much more scarce in mammals.
在那里，哺乳动物的证据变得更加稀缺。
There are examples, more or less convincing.
有一些例子，或多或少有说服力。
The field is evolving and improving a lot.
该领域正在不断发展和改进。
So for example, now, many people use the cutting edge is to use IVF, in vitro fertilization, or transfer of embryos to make sure that you actually it's the heritable information and not the environment, and that it goes through the germline.
例如，现在，许多人使用最先进的方法是使用试管受精、体外受精或胚胎移植，以确保您实际上获得的是可遗传的信息，而不是环境，并且它通过种系。
So this is something that is being done now.
所以这就是现在正在做的事情。
There are studies-
有研究——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You're talking about the three-parent IVF where they take the DNA from mom, the sperm from dad, and they take the DNA from mom and put it into a novel cytoplasm, or...?
你说的是三亲体外受精，他们从妈妈那里获取DNA，从爸爸那里获取精子，然后从妈妈那里获取DNA并将其放入新的细胞质中，或者……？
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
No, not at all.
不，一点也不。
You just take the sperm and transfer it and fertilize an egg.
您只需取出精子并将其转移并使卵子受精。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So standard IVF.
所以标准的试管婴儿。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Yeah, standard IVF.
是的，标准的体外受精。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
You can do it in many different ways, but this idea that you separate the environment of the mother from the inheritance or the environment of the father, and to control and separate nature from nurture.
你可以用很多不同的方式来做到这一点，但这个想法是将母亲的环境与遗传或父亲的环境分开，并将先天与后天控制和分开。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The environment becomes the culture dish.
环境成为培养皿。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
So the field is improving.
所以这个领域正在改善。
People do experiments that have a higher end, so more replicates, and better controlled.
人们做的实验具有更高的目的，因此可以进行更多的重复，并且可以更好地控制。
And there are some examples for effects that transfer, and it depends who you ask whether people believe it or not.
有一些影响转移的例子，这取决于你问谁，人们是否相信。
Many geneticists do not believe it, and many people do believe it, and it depends on the community.
许多遗传学家不相信它，也有很多人相信它，这取决于社区。
There are strong resistance for many reasons.
由于多种原因，存在强烈的抵制。
Some of them are justified, some less justified, and are part of the scientific process and how things work because it's challenging the dogma.
其中一些是合理的，一些则不太合理，并且是科学过程和事物运作方式的一部分，因为它挑战了教条。
So this is very interesting on its own.
所以这本身就非常有趣。
If you ask psychologists, many psychologists believe that there's heritable trauma and things like that.
如果你问心理学家，许多心理学家认为存在可遗传的创伤和类似的事情。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Population geneticists, less so.
群体遗传学家则不然。
Okay?
好的？
So this really depends, and I think that we are just at a point in time where we don't really know whether it happens and to what extent, and we need bigger studies.
所以这确实取决于，我认为我们正处于一个我们并不真正知道它是否会发生以及发生到什么程度的时间点，我们需要更大规模的研究。
Even if you think about normal, just genetic studies, where people trying to understand the genetic underpinning of complex traits like anything that involves the brain pretty much, we now know that you need to study many, many, many people.
即使你考虑正常的基因研究，人们试图了解复杂特征的遗传基础，比如任何涉及大脑的东西，我们现在知道你需要研究很多很多人。
So now these big genome-wide association studies, big genetic studies involve hundreds of thousands of people.
所以现在这些大型全基因组关联研究、大型基因研究涉及数十万人。
No one did an experiment like this for epigenetics.
没有人做过这样的表观遗传学实验。
It's much more complicated because you need to also take into account the environment.
它要复杂得多，因为您还需要考虑环境。
I'm not even sure we know how to design such an experiment.
我什至不确定我们是否知道如何设计这样的实验。
It's very, very challenging.
这非常非常具有挑战性。
Okay.
好的。
So the part of the resistance to the idea is based on theoretical grounds because of these barriers and because of the controversies.
因此，由于这些障碍和争议，对这一想法的部分抵制是基于理论依据的。
On the other hand, people really want to believe it.
另一方面，人们确实愿意相信这一点。
People really want to believe it.
人们真的愿意相信它。
Because it sort of gives your life meaning.
因为它给你的生活带来了意义。
If you can change your biology of your kids through changing your biology.
如果你可以通过改变你的生物学来改变你孩子的生物学。
So psychologically, I can understand why many people want this to happen.
所以从心理上来说，我可以理解为什么很多人希望这种情况发生。
Even Schrödinger, the famous physicist, wrote a very important book in '44.
就连著名物理学家薛定谔也在 44 年写了一本非常重要的书。
So this was before the double helix, and it's called "What Is Life?" This is actually a book that drove many physicists to establish molecular biology.
所以这是在双螺旋之前，它被称为“生命是什么？”这实际上是一本促使许多物理学家建立分子生物学的书。
It's very, very important.
这非常非常重要。
And he talks about the heritable material.
他谈到了可遗传的材料。
He also talks about evolution, and he said, unfortunately, Lamarckism or inheritance of acquired trait is untenable.
他还谈到了进化论，不幸的是，他说拉马克主义或后天性状的遗传是站不住脚的。
It doesn't happen.
它不会发生。
And he writes, "This is very sad or unfortunate because unlike Darwinism or natural selection, which is gloomy, it doesn't matter what you do, the next generation will be born based on the instruction in the sperm and the egg." You can't influence it.
他写道：“这是非常悲伤或不幸的，因为与令人沮丧的达尔文主义或自然选择不同，无论你做什么，下一代都会根据精子和卵子的指令诞生。”你无法影响它。
Of course, you can give your kids money and education, but you can't biologically influence it.
当然，你可以给你的孩子金钱和教育，但你不能从生物学上影响它。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
One thing I'm fascinated by for a number of reasons is partner selection.
出于多种原因，我着迷的一件事是合作伙伴的选择。
In some ways, we think, oh, we want to find someone who's kind.
在某些方面，我们想，哦，我们想找到一个善良的人。
That does seem to be, by the way, the primary feature, at least in the data tell us.
顺便说一句，这似乎确实是主要特征，至少从数据来看是这样。
We had David Buss on the podcast of how women select men, that people are kind.
我们的播客中有大卫·巴斯（David Buss）的节目，内容是女性如何选择男性，人们是善良的。
There's also resource potential.
还有资源潜力。
There's also beauty or-
还有美丽或者——
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
aesthetic attractiveness in males and females, et cetera.
男性和女性的审美吸引力等等。
Male-male, female-female, as the case may be, but in terms of reproduction, sperm, egg, male to female, obviously.
男变男，女变女，视具体情况而定，但就生殖而言，精子、卵子、男变女，显然是这样。
So we're selecting for a number of traits, but presumably, subconsciously, we are also selecting for a number of traits related to vigor and in the idea that if we were to have offspring with somebody, that those traits would be selected for.
因此，我们正在选择许多特征，但想必，在潜意识中，我们也在选择许多与活力相关的特征，并且认为如果我们要与某人生下后代，这些特征也会被选择。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Right.
对。
And we actually have work on that in nematodes that I'll be happy to tell you about in a second after we-
我们实际上在线虫方面开展了这方面的工作，我很乐意稍后告诉您-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The dating and-
约会和-
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
The dating in worms.
蠕虫中的约会。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Fantastic.
太棒了。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
And where we understand the mechanism, and we'll go into that in a second or in a few minutes after we dive into the worms.
我们了解了其中的机制，我们将在深入研究蠕虫后一秒钟或几分钟内进行深入研究。
But yes, the original calculations of how population genetics work, to simplify things and to do the math so it would be easy, it was random mating.
但是，是的，最初对群体遗传学如何运作的计算，为了简化事情并进行数学计算，所以它会很容易，它是随机交配。
Of course, it doesn't work like that.
当然，事实并非如此。
So it complicates things because we know.
所以这让事情变得复杂，因为我们知道。
And there's research about potential capacity to somehow sense immune compatibility and things like this, which is, I don't know, I'm not an expert on that, but-
有研究表明以某种方式感知免疫相容性的潜在能力以及类似的事情，我不知道，我不是这方面的专家，但是-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And neither am I, but my understanding is that, of course, we're familiar with the other traits we select for, like potential nurturing ability.
我也不是，但我的理解是，我们当然熟悉我们选择的其他特征，比如潜在的培养能力。
Whether or not someone is reliable predicts something about their nurturing ability and for-
一个人是否可靠可以预测他们的培养能力和目的——
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
offspring, potentially.
后代，潜在的。
You can draw lines between these things without any direct evidence, but they seem so logical, right, that somebody kind who might also stick around or be honest and these kinds of things that-
你可以在没有任何直接证据的情况下在这些事情之间划清界限，但它们看起来是如此合乎逻辑，对吧，以至于有人可能也会留下来或诚实，而这些事情——
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that it makes sense.
这是有道理的。
But that one would be selecting for certain biological traits like immune function or some other form of robustness that we're not aware of is, I think, a fascinating area of biology, yeah.
但是，我认为，人们会选择某些生物特征，例如免疫功能或我们不知道的其他形式的稳健性，这是生物学的一个令人着迷的领域，是的。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Yep.
是的。
Yeah, so this is where the work in mammals stands.
是的，这就是哺乳动物研究的意义所在。
However, there's also one additional thing to mention, which is that on top of chemical modifications to the DNA and the proteins that condense the DNA, which are called histones, there are also other mechanisms that might transmit information, including transmission between generations of RNA.
然而，还有一件事需要提及，那就是除了对 DNA 和浓缩 DNA 的蛋白质（称为组蛋白）进行化学修饰之外，还有其他可能传递信息的机制，包括各代 RNA 之间的传递。
And there are different types of RNA, not just the RNA that we mentioned before, the messenger RNA, which encodes the information for making proteins, but also other RNAs that regulate gene expression.
RNA有不同类型，不仅是我们之前提到的信使RNA（编码制造蛋白质的信息），还包括其他调节基因表达的RNA。
And I think that in recent years, also in the mammalian field, RNA, as the molecule that has the potential to transmit information between generations, took center stage.
我认为近年来，同样在哺乳动物领域，RNA 作为具有在代际间传递信息潜力的分子，占据了中心舞台。
So I think this is the cutting edge.
所以我认为这是最前沿的。
A lot more to understand and know, but RNA has a lot of potential for doing that, as we'll explain soon, but we have to go to worms first.
还有很多东西需要理解和了解，但 RNA 在这方面有很大的潜力，我们很快就会解释，但我们必须首先了解蠕虫。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thank you for that incredible overview of genetics and RNA and epigenetics, and it was essentially a survey of this very interesting, and on the face of it, sort of complex field, but you've simplified it a great deal for us.
感谢您对遗传学、RNA 和表观遗传学进行了令人难以置信的概述，这本质上是对这个非常有趣的调查，从表面上看，这是一个复杂的领域，但您为我们简化了很多。
In our transition to talking about worms, I would like to plant a flag in the Huberman Lab podcast and say that what we are about to discuss is the first time that anyone on this podcast has discussed so-called model organisms.
在我们转向谈论蠕虫的过程中，我想在胡伯曼实验室播客中插上一面旗帜，并说我们将要讨论的是这个播客中的任何人第一次讨论所谓的模式生物。
I may have mentioned a fly paper here or there, or a study on honeybees and caffeine and flower preference at one point, but typically that's done in passing, and we quickly rotate to humans.
我可能曾在这里或那里提到过一篇苍蝇纸，或者曾经提到过一项关于蜜蜂、咖啡因和花朵偏好的研究，但通常这些都是顺便完成的，我们很快就会转向人类。
I know that many, if not most of our listeners, are focused on humans and human biology and health, et cetera.
我知道很多（如果不是大多数）听众都关注人类、人类生物学和健康等等。
But I cannot emphasize enough the importance of model organisms and the incredible degree to which they've informed us about human health, especially when it comes to very basic functions in cells.
但我无法充分强调模式生物的重要性，以及它们对我们了解人类健康的令人难以置信的程度，特别是当涉及到细胞中非常基本的功能时。
Right?
正确的？
One could argue, okay, and there's been some debate, telomeres in mice, did that really lead to the same sort of data in humans?
有人可能会争论，好吧，确实存在一些争论，老鼠的端粒，这真的会在人类身上产生同样类型的数据吗？
Okay, there are those cases, certainly, but model organisms are absolutely critical and have been, and basically inform most of what we understand about human health.
好吧，当然有这些情况，但模式生物绝对是至关重要的，而且已经基本上告诉了我们对人类健康的大部分了解。
So before we start to go into the description about worms, per se, could you just explain to a general audience what a model organism is?
因此，在我们开始描述蠕虫本身之前，您能否向一般观众解释一下什么是模式生物？
Right?
正确的？
They're not modeling, they're not posing for photographs, obviously.
显然，他们不是模特，也不是摆姿势拍照。
What that means and what some of the general model organisms are and why you've selected or elected to work on a particular type of worm to study these fascinating topics that there's zero question also take place in humans at some level.
这意味着什么，一些一般模型生物是什么，以及为什么你选择或选择研究特定类型的蠕虫来研究这些令人着迷的话题，毫无疑问，这些话题在某种程度上也发生在人类身上。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
So it's a real pleasure and an honor to represent the model organisms here.
因此，能够在这里代表模式生物我感到非常高兴和荣幸。
I'm really happy just for that.
我真的为此感到高兴。
It was worth it.
这是值得的。
Because as you said Model organisms are extremely important, and we learn so much about biology through them.
因为正如你所说，模式生物非常重要，我们通过它们学到了很多生物学知识。
The model organisms mean that it's an organism that many people work on, so there's a community of people that work on.
模式生物体意味着它是一个由许多人共同研究的生物体，因此存在一个共同研究的人群。
People study many types of organisms, but not around every organism there's a huge community of researchers that combine forces to create all the resources and the tools and understanding that accumulates.
人们研究多种类型的生物体，但并非每种生物体周围都有一个庞大的研究人员群体，他们联合起来创造所有资源、工具和积累的理解。
There are just a handful of model organisms in the short history of the field of biology.
在生物学领域短暂的历史中，模式生物的数量屈指可数。
It's not so long.
没那么长了。
We learned about every aspect of biology through them, including many important diseases, human diseases.
我们通过他们了解了生物学的方方面面，包括许多重要的疾病、人类疾病。
And these are E.
这些是E。
coli bacteria, phage, which is a virus of bacteria, flies, worms that are called C.
大肠杆菌、噬菌体、细菌、苍蝇、蠕虫病毒，称为 C.
elegans nematodes.
线虫。
This is what we study in the lab.
这就是我们在实验室研究的内容。
Fish, which are called zebrafish.
鱼，被称为斑马鱼。
It's a particular-
这是一个特别的——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think it's Danio danio or something.
我认为是丹尼奥丹尼奥之类的。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
And of course, there are also model organisms, other, and mouse.
当然，还有模式生物、其他生物和小鼠。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
And also plants, important plants.
还有植物，重要的植物。
The most studied one is the Arabidopsis.
研究最多的是拟南芥。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
And perhaps less so nowadays, but non-human primates.
如今也许情况有所不同，但非人类灵长类动物。
Macaque monkeys, marmosets, squirrel monkeys, mainly.
主要有猕猴、狨猴、松鼠猴。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Right.
对。
These, I don't know exactly how the definition is, but emerging model organisms.
这些，我不知道确切的定义是什么，而是新兴的模式生物。
There are many model organisms that are emerging, and there are communities that are formed, including also around the planaria that we mentioned before, this flat worm that regenerates, is a great model for studying regenerations.
有许多模式生物正在出现，并且已经形成了群落，包括我们之前提到的涡虫周围，这种能够再生的扁虫，是研究再生的一个很好的模型。
If we could develop new heads, it would be incredible.
如果我们能够开发出新的头脑，那就太不可思议了。
And we can learn from these organisms.
我们可以向这些生物体学习。
And the reason that we can learn a lot also about humans by studying these animals is that we all evolved from the same ancestor, so we share a lot of our functions with them, and also a lot of our genes.
我们之所以可以通过研究这些动物来了解更多关于人类的信息，是因为我们都是从同一个祖先进化而来的，所以我们与它们分享了很多功能，也分享了很多基因。
C.
C.
elegans...
线虫...
And the different model organisms have different advantages that serve us.
不同的模式生物有不同的优势为我们服务。
They sometimes have some things that are much more apparent in them that we can study.
有时他们身上有一些更明显的东西可供我们研究。
For example, learning and memory was largely studied in the beginning in a snail, Aplysia, where many of the discoveries were made because it has big neurons that you can easily study and examine.
例如，学习和记忆最初主要是在蜗牛（海兔）身上进行的研究，其中许多发现是因为它具有可以轻松研究和检查的大神经元。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And yes, snails learn.
是的，蜗牛会学习。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Yes, they learn.
是的，他们学习。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Even C.
甚至C.
elegans, these nematodes that we study learn, and they are much simpler than worms.
线虫，我们研究的这些线虫会学习，它们比蠕虫简单得多。
Another important reason to study them, of course, is you can actually experiment on them.
当然，研究它们的另一个重要原因是您可以实际对它们进行实验。
We can't do this to humans, the things that we do to these animals.
我们不能对人类做这样的事，不能对这些动物做这样的事。
And we can change their genes, do all kinds of things to them.
我们可以改变他们的基因，对他们做各种各样的事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And in some...
而在一些...
Sorry to interrupt, but in some cases, I think you're going to tell us, for instance, in C.
抱歉打扰，但在某些情况下，我认为您会告诉我们，例如，在 C 中。
elegans in particular, the presence of particular cell types is so stereotyped that you can look at several different worms, and the community of people that study C.
特别是线虫，特定细胞类型的存在是如此刻板，以至于你可以看看几种不同的线虫，以及研究线虫的人们社区。
elegans has literally numbered and named each neuron so that two laboratories on opposite sides of the world can publish papers on the same neuron knowing that it's the same neuron-
线虫对每个神经元进行了字面上的编号和命名，这样世界两端的两个实验室就可以发表关于同一个神经元的论文，并且知道它是同一个神经元——
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Absolutely
绝对
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in the two different laboratories.
在两个不同的实验室。
Something that is extremely hard to do in any mammalian model-
这在任何哺乳动物模型中都很难做到——
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
a mouse, or certainly in humans, and has posed huge challenges that give great advantages to studies of things like C.
小鼠，或者当然是人类，也带来了巨大的挑战，这为像 C. 等生物的研究提供了巨大的优势。
elegans.
线虫。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So C.
所以C.
elegans, this is the star now, and this is what we study.
线虫，这就是现在的明星，这就是我们研究的对象。
These are nematodes, small worms, round worms, that are just one millimeter long, so you can't see them with the naked eye.
这些是线虫、小蠕虫、圆虫，只有一毫米长，所以你用肉眼看不到它们。
You have to look under the scope.
你必须在范围内查看。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Where do they live in the natural world?
他们生活在自然界的什么地方？
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
So they used to call them soil nematodes, but this is not really true.
所以他们过去称它们为土壤线虫，但事实并非如此。
They are in many places, but they're mostly in rotten fruits and leaves.
它们存在于很多地方，但大多存在于腐烂的水果和树叶中。
And you can find them in the ground as well, but you can also find them...
你也可以在地下找到它们，但你也可以找到它们......
And they are free living, so they're not parasites, but you can sometimes also find them in snails.
它们是自由生活的，所以它们不是寄生虫，但有时你也可以在蜗牛身上找到它们。
Okay?
好的？
But the best way to isolate them is from rotten fruits.
但最好的隔离方法是与腐烂的水果隔离。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I like the idea that they're not parasites.
我喜欢它们不是寄生虫的想法。
I'm one of these people that gets a little squeamish about the notion of parasites.
我是对寄生虫的概念有些反感的人之一。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So they're not parasites.
所以它们不是寄生虫。
They're really fun to handle because they're so small and easy.
它们操作起来非常有趣，因为它们很小而且很容易。
You just grow them on plates with agar and E.
你只需将它们种植在含有琼脂和大肠杆菌的平板上即可。
coli bacteria.
大肠杆菌。
This is what they eat in the lab.
这是他们在实验室吃的东西。
You can just pick them with a small pick, wire pick, and move them around and change their genes and do many things to them.
你可以用小镐、钢丝镐来采摘它们，然后移动它们，改变它们的基因，对它们做很多事情。
But they have many advantages for neuroscience and for studying inheritance.
但它们对于神经科学和遗传研究有很多优势。
As you mentioned, they have always a certain number of cells in the body.
正如你提到的，它们体内总是有一定数量的细胞。
So a C.
所以一个C。
elegans nematode always has 959 cells in its body.
线虫体内始终有 959 个细胞。
That's it, okay?
就是这样，好吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Not 960.
不是960。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
No.
不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Not 958.
不是958。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
959.
959.
Okay?
好吧？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
And out of which, 302 are neurons.
其中，302 个是神经元。
Always 302.
总是302。
There's a huge debate now over Twitter on whether it's 302 or 300.
现在 Twitter 上关于是 302 还是 300 存在着激烈的争论。
I don't want to get into trouble, okay?
我不想惹上麻烦，好吗？
But people take this very hard.
但人们对此很难接受。
I think it's 302, but let's not get into it because I'll get into trouble.
我认为是 302，但我们不要讨论它，因为我会遇到麻烦。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, we can equilibrate all things here by you say 302.
好吧，我们可以通过你说的302来平衡这里的所有事情。
Granted, you're far more informed in this model organism than I am or ever will be.
诚然，你对这个模式生物的了解比我现在或将来要多得多。
I'll say 300, and then we're balanced in terms of-
我会说 300，然后我们就平衡了-
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Perfect
完美
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
partisan politics in the C.
C. 党派政治
elegans community.
秀丽隐杆线虫社区。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Perfect.
完美。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
And it's always the same, and each neuron has a name, like you said.
它总是一样的，每个神经元都有一个名字，就像你说的那样。
And not only does every neuron has a name, many of them we know what they do.
每个神经元不仅有一个名字，而且我们知道其中许多神经元的作用。
So there's a few cells that are sensory neurons that sense particular chemicals.
因此，有一些细胞是感觉神经元，可以感知特定的化学物质。
In certain situations, we know that a chemical will be sensed just by one neuron.
在某些情况下，我们知道一种化学物质只能被一个神经元感知。
There are the motor neurons and interneurons and all of that.
有运动神经元和中间神经元等等。
We know how many dopamine neurons there are and serotonin neurons, and we know them all by their name.
我们知道有多少多巴胺神经元和血清素神经元，而且我们都知道它们的名字。
Not only that, we know how they are connected to one another.
不仅如此，我们还知道它们是如何相互联系的。
We have a connectome since the '80s, like a subway map that tells us which neuron talks with which other neurons, and it is the same.
自 80 年代以来，我们就有了连接组，就像地铁地图一样，它告诉我们哪个神经元与哪些其他神经元对话，而且它是一样的。
Okay.
好的。
People thought that it was exactly the same between genetically identical worms.
人们认为基因相同的蠕虫之间的情况完全相同。
Now we know that there are slight differences, but by and large, it is the same.
现在我们知道存在细微差别，但大体上是相同的。
And we have a roadmap that we can use to study.
我们有一个可以用来研究的路线图。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The so-called connectome.
所谓的连接组。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
The connectome.
连接体。
Not only that, the worms are transparent, so we can actually see the neurons fire using particular tools.
不仅如此，蠕虫是透明的，因此我们实际上可以看到神经元使用特定工具放电。
And we can activate genes and silent genes using optogenetics, like was discussed here on the podcast.
我们可以使用光遗传学激活基因和沉默基因，就像播客中讨论的那样。
We can make the worms go forward or backward or lay an egg by shining different waves of light on them.
我们可以通过向蠕虫照射不同的光波来使它们前进或后退或产卵。
And so we have very powerful tools for manipulating their brain.
所以我们有非常强大的工具来操纵他们的大脑。
On top of that, we have great understanding of the genetics of the worm, of the genome.
最重要的是，我们对线虫的遗传学和基因组有深入的了解。
C.
C.
elegans is the first animal to have its genome sequenced before humans.
线虫是第一个在人类之前完成基因组测序的动物。
Before that, of course, there were bacteria.
在此之前，当然是有细菌的。
And we know that in each worm, each mother produces about 250 babies, which are almost genetically identical.
我们知道，每条线虫的每个母亲都会产下大约 250 个孩子，这些孩子的基因几乎是相同的。
And we know where we grow them.
我们知道在哪里种植它们。
The environment is very controlled, so we grow them in the plate with just bacteria.
环境受到严格控制，因此我们将它们培养在仅含有细菌的盘子中。
So we can easily separate between nature and nurture.
所以我们可以很容易地区分先天和后天。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And one thing that I wonder about often is generation time.
我经常想知道的一件事是一代时间。
Even though mice are not humans, mice have certain advantages because they're a mammalian species.
尽管老鼠不是人类，但由于它们是哺乳动物，因此具有一定的优势。
You can't do all the magnificent things that you can do in C.
你无法完成所有在 C 语言中能完成的伟大事情。
elegans in mice, but one major issue with mice is that the generation time is somewhat long.
小鼠体内的线虫，但小鼠的一个主要问题是世代时间有点长。
You pair two mice, they mate, you get a mouse or a litter of mice 21 days later.
你将两只老鼠配对，它们交配，21 天后你就会得到一只老鼠或一窝老鼠。
It might seem like, okay, that's only 21 days or so, but if you are a graduate student or a postdoc trying to do a project, that can extend the time to do experiments out three or four years compared to what you could do in C.
看起来，好吧，这只有 21 天左右，但如果你是一名研究生或博士后，正在尝试做一个项目，那么与使用 C 语言相比，这可以将做实验的时间延长三到四年。
elegans.
线虫。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
You're absolutely right.
你是绝对正确的。
This is one of the major advantages.
这是主要优点之一。
The generation time in C.
C中的生成时间
elegans is three days.
线虫是三天。
Three days.
三天。
So you can do hundreds of worm generations in one PhD.
因此，您可以在一个博士学位内完成数百个蠕虫世代。
This is very important.
这非常重要。
Not only that, every worm will produce hundreds of progeny that are genetically identical, so you will have great statistics for your experiments.
不仅如此，每条蠕虫都会产生数百个基因相同的后代，因此您将为您的实验提供大量统计数据。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And the worms probably don't mind living on these agar plates, munching away on E.
蠕虫可能不介意生活在这些琼脂平板上，咀嚼大肠杆菌。
coli, where-
大肠杆菌，哪里——
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
It's the good life
这就是美好的生活
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
it's questionable whether or not mice are-- Certainly, listen, I'm a proponent of well-controlled, and as long as there's oversight, animal research.
老鼠是否——当然，听着，我是严格控制的、只要有监督的动物研究的支持者。
It's necessary for the development of treatments of diseases that hinder humans.
这对于开发阻碍人类的疾病的治疗方法是必要的。
But it is always a little bit of a kind of a cringe-and-go kind of thing when you're dealing with mammals that are living so far outside their natural environment.
但当你面对生活在远离自然环境的哺乳动物时，这总是有点让人畏缩。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd be lying if I didn't say that it gets to you after a while, and if it doesn't get to you, you kind of have to wonder about your own psyche a bit.
如果我没有说一段时间后它会影响到你，那我就是在撒谎，如果它没有影响到你，你就不得不怀疑自己的心理了。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Right.
对。
I also think that this is important, but for me, it's much easier to work on worms.
我也认为这很重要，但对我来说，研究蠕虫要容易得多。
I don't have to feel bad about it.
我不必为此感到难过。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, they're happy.
是的，他们很高兴。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
They're happy, and you also-- If a worm dies, it's less painful to the human than if another more sensitive animal is dead.
他们很高兴，你也很高兴——如果一条蠕虫死了，对人类来说，比另一只更敏感的动物死了要少一些痛苦。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
I would argue yes.
我认为是的。
I agree.
我同意。
Yep.
是的。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
So yes.
所以是的。
So there are many advantages for studying C.
所以学习C有很多好处。
elegans.
线虫。
And in the worm, we now have very obvious and clear-cut proof that there is inheritance of acquired traits.
在蠕虫中，我们现在有非常明显和明确的证据表明后天性状具有遗传性。
So much so that I don't think that anyone, pretty much, in the epigenetic field argues against it.
如此之多，以至于我认为表观遗传学领域几乎没有人反对它。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, and in large part thanks to you and the work you've done.
嗯，这在很大程度上要感谢您和您所做的工作。
So could you tell us what was the first experiment that you did on C.
那么您能告诉我们您在 C 上所做的第一个实验是什么吗？
elegans that confirmed for you that there is inheritance of acquired traits?
线虫为你证实了后天性状的遗传？
Because, of course, the best experiments and experimenters always set out to disprove their hypothesis, and when the hypothesis survives despite all the control experiments and poking and prodding and attempts to contradict oneself-
当然，因为最好的实验和实验者总是着手反驳他们的假设，而当尽管进行了所有对照实验、戳刺和试图自相矛盾时，假设仍然存在——
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
then it's considered a victory.
那么这就算是胜利了。
But it's one that we all have to be very cautious about enjoying because of the tendency to want our hypotheses to be true.
但我们都必须非常谨慎地享受它，因为我们倾向于希望我们的假设成立。
So what was the first experiment where you were convinced that inheritance of acquired traits is real?
那么，您确信后天性状遗传是真实存在的第一个实验是什么？
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
The first experiment I did was in my postdoc, which I did with Oliver Hobert in University of Columbia.
我做的第一个实验是在我的博士后期间，与哥伦比亚大学的奥利弗·霍伯特一起做的。
We set to test whether worms can produce transgenerational for multiple generations resistance to viruses.
我们开始测试蠕虫是否能够产生跨代多代的病毒抵抗力。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, wow.
哦，哇。
This is a very pertinent topic.
这是一个非常相关的话题。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Yes, which is relevant today.
是的，这与今天相关。
And these worms don't have dedicated immune cells like we do.
这些蠕虫不像我们一样有专门的免疫细胞。
They don't have T cells or B cells.
他们没有 T 细胞或 B 细胞。
They defend themselves from viruses very efficiently using RNA.
它们利用 RNA 非常有效地防御病毒。
So in fact, when we started these experiments, there wasn't any natural virus that was known to infect C.
事实上，当我们开始这些实验时，还没有任何已知的天然病毒可以感染艰难梭菌。
elegans, which is amazing, because viruses are very good, as we all experience now, in infecting.
线虫，这太神奇了，因为正如我们现在所经历的那样，病毒在感染方面非常出色。
And the worms are resistant to viruses because of short RNA molecules that destroy viruses, and these are called small RNAs.
蠕虫之所以能抵抗病毒，是因为它们的短RNA分子可以消灭病毒，这些分子被称为小RNA。
Now we need to discuss them before I explain my experiment.
现在在我解释我的实验之前我们需要讨论它们。
In 2006, two researchers that were studying C.
2006 年，两名研究 C.
elegans, Andrew Fire and Craig Mello, got the Nobel Prize for showing that there is a mechanism that regulates genes that happens through small RNAs.
线虫安德鲁·法尔 (Andrew Fire) 和克雷格·梅洛 (Craig Mello) 因证明存在一种通过小 RNA 调节基因的机制而获得诺贝尔奖。
What they've shown is that if you inject the worms with RNA molecules, which are double-stranded, they shut off the genes that match in sequence to this RNA.
他们的研究表明，如果你给蠕虫注射双链RNA分子，它们就会关闭与该RNA序列匹配的基因。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So it's sort of like taking the specific instructions for the coffee table from your IKEA handbook, and you insert a copy of that into the book, and in doing so, you prevent the expression of-- You sort of erase the original page.
因此，这有点像从宜家手册中获取咖啡桌的具体说明，然后将其副本插入书中，这样做可以防止表达--您可以擦除原始页面。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Perfect explanation.
完美的解释。
And they found that double-stranded RNA, RNA that has two strands, is what starts the response, leading to the production of small RNA molecules, which are the ones that actually find the messenger RNA and leads to its destruction, silence it, so you don't get proteins in the end.
他们发现双链RNA，即具有两条链的RNA，是启动反应的物质，导致小RNA分子的产生，这些小RNA分子实际上找到了信使RNA并导致其破坏，使其沉默，所以最终不会得到蛋白质。
For that, they got the Nobel Prize after people found that this is conserved in many organisms, including humans.
为此，当人们发现这一点在包括人类在内的许多生物体中是保守的后，他们获得了诺贝尔奖。
And there are now drugs, this was only in 2006, the Nobel Prize.
现在还有药物，这只是2006年的诺贝尔奖。
The paper was published in '98.
该论文发表于98年。
There are now drugs that use this mechanism also in humans.
现在也有药物在人类身上使用这种机制。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I'll just interject and say that not only is it a recent discovery and an incredibly important one, but Andy Fire and Craig Mello are also really nice people.
我想插嘴说，这不仅是一个最近的发现，而且是一个极其重要的发现，而且安迪·法尔和克雷格·梅洛也是非常好的人。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They just happen to be very nice people.
他们只是碰巧是非常好的人。
And Craig Mello's an excellent-- I think he's a kite surfer.
克雷格·梅洛是一位出色的——我认为他是一位风筝冲浪者。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The only time I've met him in person was at a meeting and he had a black eye, and I thought, "Okay.
我唯一一次见到他本人是在一次会议上，他的眼睛是黑色的，我想，“好吧。
Wow, I guess he's also a pugilist or something," but turns out he had done that kite surfing.
哇，我猜他也是一名拳击手什么的，”但事实证明他玩过风筝冲浪。
So scientists actually do things other than go to the laboratory, Nobel Prize-winning scientists, that is.
因此，科学家们实际上除了去实验室之外还做其他事情，也就是说，获得诺贝尔奖的科学家。
Okay, I'll let you continue.
好吧，我让你继续。
Thanks for allowing me that interjection.
谢谢你允许我插话。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Incredible scientists.
令人难以置信的科学家。
And there were also studies in many organisms on the mechanisms of how this happens.
在许多生物体中也对这种现象发生的机制进行了研究。
It is called RNA interference.
这称为RNA干扰。
RNA interferes in the expression of a gene in the end, in the function of a gene.
RNA最终会干扰基因的表达，干扰基因的功能。
And it's also called gene silencing because these RNAs enforce the silencing of genes.
它也被称为基因沉默，因为这些 RNA 强制基因沉默。
Instead of the genes being expressed, they are silenced, and you don't manifest their function.
基因没有被表达，而是被沉默了，你也没有表现出它们的功能。
Okay?
好的？
Already in the first paper that they published about this, where they've shown the double-stranded RNA is what leads to the silencing of the control, they've shown two very important things.
他们在发表的第一篇论文中已经展示了双链 RNA 是导致对照沉默的原因，他们展示了两件非常重要的事情。
One of them is that if you inject the worms with double-stranded RNA, you don't only see the action in the cell that you injected or in the tissue that you injected, but you see it all over the worm's body.
其中之一是，如果你给蠕虫注射双链RNA，你不仅会看到你注射的细胞或组织中的作用，而且你会看到它遍布蠕虫的身体。
It spreads.
它蔓延开来。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
It wasn't exactly clear what spreads, but it was clear that it spreads.
目前还不清楚是什么在传播，但很明显它在传播。
You see the silencing all over the body.
你会看到全身都一片寂静。
This includes also the germ cells.
这还包括生殖细胞。
So if you inject the double-stranded RNA just to somatic cells, even to the head, you will get also the effect in the germ cells and in the next generation.
因此，如果你只将双链RNA注射到体细胞，甚至头部，你也会在生殖细胞和下一代中得到效果。
Okay?
好的？
In the immediate progeny, the F1 generation, the kids.
在直系后代中，F1一代，孩子们。
So this was really clear proof that this is inherited.
所以这确实清楚地证明了这是遗传的。
However, this is just one generation, okay, in these original studies.
然而，这只是这些原始研究中的一代人。
Later, they've shown something which will immediately remind you what I told you about with planaria, that you can just take worms and feed them on bacteria that produce this double-stranded RNA, and the silencing would move from the site of ingestion from the gut, where the bacteria are eaten, to the rest of the body and also to the next generation.
后来，他们展示了一些东西，这些东西会立即提醒你我告诉过你的关于涡虫的事情，你可以只用蠕虫并以产生这种双链RNA的细菌为食，沉默就会从肠道的摄入部位（细菌被吃掉的地方）转移到身体的其他部位，也转移到下一代。
Okay?
好的？
So before we left, when I mentioned these cannibalistic experiments of McConnell with the planaria, and now you see that it can happen and this is not controversial at all.
所以在我们离开之前，当我提到麦康奈尔用涡虫进行的这些同类相食实验时，现在你看到它可能发生，而且这根本没有争议。
This is being done routinely every day by any C.
这是任何 C 每天都会例行公事地做的事情。
elegans biologist in the world.
世界线虫生物学家。
Okay?
好的？
So this has been replicated a million times.
所以这已经被复制了一百万次。
Not only that, you can also feed planaria, these other worms, with RNA.
不仅如此，您还可以用 RNA 喂养涡虫（这些其他蠕虫）。
You can just put it in chopped liver and let them eat it, and again, this will silence genes throughout the body.
你可以把它放在切碎的肝脏里，让他们吃掉，这又会让整个身体的基因沉默。
Okay?
好的？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wild.
狂野。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Okay.
好的。
And this is what we do routinely.
这就是我们的日常做法。
We use this technique to see what genes do.
我们使用这种技术来观察基因的作用。
If we want to see whether a particular gene is important for a certain behavior or for a certain something, the way to study it is to neutralize the gene activity, and we do it by just introducing the worms with double-stranded RNA that correspond in sequence, that match in sequence this gene.
如果我们想了解某个特定基因对于某种行为或某种事物是否重要，研究它的方法就是中和该基因的活性，我们只需向蠕虫中引入序列对应的双链RNA，与该基因的序列匹配即可。
This will lead to the silencing.
这将导致沉默。
This activates the gene's activity.
这激活了基因的活性。
And if then the effect stops, we know this gene is involved in the function.
如果效果停止，我们就知道该基因参与了该功能。
And we never want to just examine one worm, so we feed the mother with double-stranded RNA, and then we examine all of its children, so we can have the statistics over hundreds of worms or thousands of worms.
我们不想只检查一只蠕虫，所以我们用双链RNA喂养母亲，然后检查它的所有孩子，这样我们就可以获得数百条或数千条蠕虫的统计数据。
So this is validated and not controversial at all and totally routine.
所以这是经过验证的，根本没有争议，而且完全是常规。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is it fair to say that McConnell's experiments of blending up these worms, very graphic image, blending up these worms and then feeding them to other worms, planaria, that those experiments can, yes, be explained by double-stranded RNA and through RNA interference?
可以公平地说，麦康奈尔混合这些蠕虫的实验，非常生动的图像，混合这些蠕虫，然后将它们喂给其他蠕虫，涡虫，这些实验可以用双链RNA和RNA干扰来解释吗？
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Potentially.
有潜力。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
It hasn't been done yet.
它还没有完成。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
We are working on it in my lab now in collaboration with other labs.
我们现在正在我的实验室与其他实验室合作研究这个问题。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Fantastic.
太棒了。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
But it wasn't published.
但它没有出版。
But yes, this could be the explanation.
但是，是的，这可能就是解释。
Okay?
好的？
So Fire and Mello did these experiments.
因此 Fire 和 Mello 做了这些实验。
Some other people did these experiments.
其他一些人做了这些实验。
When I started my work, I wanted to see whether in addition to artificial double-stranded RNA, some natural traits can also transmit across generations because of RNA, because of small RNAs.
当我开始工作时，我想看看除了人工双链RNA之外，一些自然特征是否也可以因为RNA、因为小RNA而代代相传。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Because injecting RNAi or short interfering RNAs, that is, or putting worms into an environment with an abundance of inhibitory RNAs as an experiment is very different than worms experiencing something and then passing on that acquired trait to their offspring.
因为注射 RNAi 或短干扰 RNA，也就是说，将线虫放入含有丰富抑制性 RNA 的环境中作为实验，与线虫经历某些事情然后将获得的特征传递给后代有很大不同。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
It's just-
这只是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's a world apart, in my opinion.
在我看来，这是一个不同的世界。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
It's just much more-
这只是更多 -
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because one is an extreme manipulation that illustrates an underlying principle.
因为这是一种极端的操纵，说明了一个基本原则。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The other is something that- in theory, occurs in the passage of generations just naturally.
从理论上讲，另一个是在世代相传中自然发生的事情。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
We're going from the less artificial to the more artificial.
我们正在从不那么人工化走向更加人工化。
The advantages, just like with model organisms, that the more artificial it is, the easy it is to-- you know exactly what you did.
就像模型生物一样，它的优点是越人工，就越容易——你确切地知道你做了什么。
Just now, introduce one factor, and you can follow the result.
刚才引入一个因素，你就可以得出结果。
So this is always the trade.
所以这始终是交易。
What I did was, in Oliver's lab, is to see whether the magic, part of the magic for the worm's resistance to viruses is their capacity to transmit information in the form of RNA molecules, inhibitory RNA molecules, to the next generations.
在奥利弗的实验室里，我所做的就是看看蠕虫抵抗病毒的神奇之处（部分神奇之处）是否在于它们以 RNA 分子（抑制性 RNA 分子）的形式将信息传递给下一代的能力。
And it has been shown before in C.
之前已经在 C 中展示过了。
elegans that the worms resist viruses using this mechanism, these small RNAs.
线虫认为，线虫利用这种小 RNA 机制来抵抗病毒。
Okay?
好的？
In fact, this is probably the reason that these small RNAs evolved in the first place, to get rid of viruses and other parasitic genomic elements, and this is a mechanism to fight them.
事实上，这可能是这些小RNA最初进化的原因，为了摆脱病毒和其他寄生基因组元件，这是一种对抗它们的机制。
And what I did is a very simple experiment.
我所做的是一个非常简单的实验。
I took worms and I infected them with a virus.
我拿了蠕虫并用病毒感染了它们。
When you do this, this also has been shown in the past, the worms destroy the virus.
当你这样做时，这在过去也已被证明，蠕虫会消灭病毒。
Okay?
好的？
We demonstrated this very clearly using a fluorescent virus.
我们使用荧光病毒非常清楚地证明了这一点。
So if the virus replicates successfully, the worm just turns green, and if the virus is destroyed, the worm stays black.
因此，如果病毒复制成功，蠕虫就会变成绿色，如果病毒被破坏，蠕虫就会保持黑色。
Okay?
好的？
This is very simple.
这很简单。
It's a clear cut of.
这是一个清晰的切分。
You don't examine the worm and ask whether it feels good.
你不会检查蠕虫并询问它是否感觉良好。
You just see this green light.
你只会看到这个绿灯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Binary response.
二元响应。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
And so we took worms, we infect them with a fluorescent virus.
所以我们拿了蠕虫，用荧光病毒感染它们。
They destroy it.
他们摧毁了它。
This also has been done in the past.
过去也曾这样做过。
But then what we did is we neutralized the machinery that makes small RNAs in the descendants of the worms, so they cannot make small RNAs from the start on their own because they just don't have the genes that you need to make these small RNAs.
但我们所做的是中和线虫后代中制造小RNA的机制，因此它们无法从一开始就自己制造小RNA，因为它们不具备制造这些小RNA所需的基因。
Okay?
好的？
And then we ask, what will happen when we'll infect these worms with a virus?
然后我们问，当我们用病毒感染这些蠕虫时会发生什么？
Will they be green or black?
它们会是绿色还是黑色？
They can't make their own small RNAs, so they can't protect themselves on their own.
它们无法制造自己的小RNA，因此无法自行保护自己。
The only way for them to stay black, for them not having the virus replicate, is if they inherit the small RNAs from their parents, and this is exactly what happens.
对于他们来说，保持黑人身份、不让病毒复制的唯一方法是从父母那里继承小RNA，而这正是发生的情况。
All the worms' progeny, although they don't have the gene that is needed for making the small RNAs, are black.
所有蠕虫的后代，尽管不具有制造小 RNA 所需的基因，但都是黑色的。
They silence the virus, and this also continues for additional generations, okay?
他们让病毒沉默，这也会持续几代人，好吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So the parent worms effectively put something into the genetic instructions of the offspring that would afford them, let's call it an advantage in this case.
因此，亲代蠕虫有效地将一些东西放入后代的遗传指令中，以供养它们，在这种情况下，我们称其为优势。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But afford them an advantage if they were to be confronted with the same thing that the parents were.
但如果他们面临与父母同样的事情，那就给他们一个优势。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Right.
对。
And we know exactly what this advantage is.
我们确切地知道这个优势是什么。
The advantage is our small RNAs that match the viral genome can just chop up that virus in the next generation, and we can identify these small RNAs, the inhibitory RNAs in the descendants although they don't have the machinery to make it, just because they inherit it.
优点是我们与病毒基因组相匹配的小RNA可以在下一代中杀死该病毒，并且我们可以识别这些小RNA，即后代中的抑制性RNA，尽管它们没有制造它的机制，只是因为它们继承了它。
We can identify them by sequencing, by RNA sequencing, which is like DNA sequencing.
我们可以通过RNA测序来识别它们，这就像DNA测序一样。
You actually get the actual sequence of the RNA molecules, and we can see that they correspond to the virus, and they inherit these small RNAs only if their parents were infected with them.
你实际上得到了RNA分子的实际序列，我们可以看到它们与病毒相对应，并且只有当它们的父母感染了它们时，它们才会继承这些小RNA。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So there's specificity there.
所以这里有特殊性。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
There's specificity.
有特异性。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
It's not some just general resilience passage.
这不仅仅是一般性的恢复力段落。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I have to be careful in drawing an analogy that isn't correct, and I want to acknowledge that what I'm about to say with certainty cannot be entirely correct.
我必须小心地进行不正确的类比，并且我想承认我将要肯定地说的话不可能完全正确。
But the analogy that comes to mind in mammals is this idea that if one generation is stressed, that their offspring may, in some cases, have a higher stress threshold, a resilience to stress.
但在哺乳动物中，我们想到的类比是这样的想法：如果一代人受到压力，那么在某些情况下，他们的后代可能会具有更高的压力阈值，即对压力的恢复能力。
I could imagine why that would be advantageous, right?
我可以想象为什么这会是有利的，对吧？
Your parents have a hard life, they have offspring, and they want their children to have a higher threshold to stress because stress can inhibit reproduction, et cetera.
你的父母生活艰苦，他们有后代，他们希望他们的孩子有更高的压力阈值，因为压力会抑制繁殖等等。
And as I always say, at the end of the day and at the end of life, evolution is about the offspring, not about the parents.
正如我常说的，归根结底，在生命的最后，进化是关于后代的，而不是关于父母的。
And every species pretty much seems to want to make more of itself and protect its young, one way or another, either through nature or through nurture.
每个物种似乎都想通过自然或后天的方式，使自己变得更好并保护其后代。
This is a nature-based protection of young.
这是对青少年的一种基于自然的保护。
Is it fair to say that in the mammalian experiment with a passage of stress resilience, that it could be RNA-based, that that would perhaps set some new threshold on glucocorticoid production?
可以公平地说，在哺乳动物的应激恢复实验中，它可能是基于 RNA 的，这可能会为糖皮质激素的产生设定一些新的阈值？
Here I'm speculating, and I want to highlight that I'm speculating, but I'm speculating with a reason, which is, I think for people that are hearing about this in worms, you've done a beautiful job of explaining out why model organisms are really important.
我在这里进行推测，我想强调我的推测，但我的推测是有原因的，那就是，我认为对于那些在蠕虫中听到这一点的人来说，你已经很好地解释了为什么模式生物非常重要。
But to think about how this may operate in the passage of human generations, I think is a reasonable thing to entertain.
但想想这在人类世代的传承中如何运作，我认为这是一件合理的事情。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Right.
对。
And it is true that also in mammals, now RNAs and small RNAs are a leading candidate for something that could mediate the transmission of stress protection or also of harmful effects that transmit between generations.
确实，在哺乳动物中，现在 RNA 和小 RNA 是介导压力保护传递或代际传递有害影响的主要候选者。
Perhaps RNA do it.
或许RNA可以做到这一点。
However, in worms, the RNAs have one more trick that we don't know the equivalent in mammals yet.
然而，在线虫中，RNA 还有一种我们尚不知道的哺乳动物中的类似功能。
This is something very crucial that we showed in that particular paper, in the first paper.
这是我们在第一篇论文中展示的非常重要的东西。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Which is?
哪个是？
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
So the effect that I described, this transmission of resistance to viruses through these RNAs, doesn't only affect the next generation, it also affect multiple additional generations.
因此，我所描述的效应，即通过这些 RNA 传播对病毒的抵抗力，不仅影响下一代，而且还会影响另外的多个世代。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So it gets passed.
所以它就通过了。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
It gets passed, and you have to ask yourself, how doesn't it get dilute?
它过去了，你必须问自己，它怎么不被稀释？
Why isn't it diluted, right?
为什么不稀释，对吗？
Because every worm produces 250 babies, so you dilute by 250, and if something is diluted for four generations, so it's 250 times 250.
因为每条蠕虫会产下 250 个幼虫，所以稀释了 250，如果某种东西稀释了四代，那么就是 250 乘以 250。
After four generations, it's a dilution of four billions.
经过四代之后，稀释了四十亿美元。
Completely homeopathic would never work.
完全顺势疗法永远不会起作用。
Okay?
好的？
It's just there's nothing left.
只是什么都没有剩下了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
The secret of these worms is that they have a machinery for amplifying the small RNAs in every generation.
这些蠕虫的秘密在于它们每一代都有一种扩增小 RNA 的机制。
Okay?
好的？
This is called RNA-dependent RNA polymerase.
这称为 RNA 依赖性 RNA 聚合酶。
It's a complex which uses the RNA to find, and once it finds the messenger RNA, just create many, many, many, many small RNAs, so they don't get diluted, and they pass on for-
它是一个利用 RNA 来寻找的复合物，一旦它找到了信使 RNA，就会产生许多、许多、许多、许多的小 RNA，这样它们就不会被稀释，并且它们会继续传递——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm
毫米
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
...
...
additional generations.
额外的几代人。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Okay?
好吧？
And this is the trick.
这就是窍门。
We later also identify genes that regulate for how long an effect would last.
我们后来还确定了调节效果持续时间的基因。
Otherwise, if in the beginning we ask how doesn't it stop after one generation?
不然一开始我们问一代之后怎么不停止呢？
Now, we have to ask, why doesn't it last forever?
现在，我们要问，为什么它不能永远持续下去？
And it doesn't.
但事实并非如此。
Okay?
好的？
Typically, we see that the responses last not only with the valve resistance, but also with other traits for a few generations, three to five generations.
通常，我们看到这种反应不仅会随着瓣膜阻力的变化而持续，而且还会随着其他性状的变化而持续几代，三到五代。
We found genes that function as a sort of a clock that times the duration of the inheritance.
我们发现基因的功能就像一种时钟，可以计算遗传的持续时间。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What sorts of genes are those?
这些基因是什么样的？
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
So we call these genes MOTEC genes.
所以我们将这些基因称为 MOTEC 基因。
MOTEC, I don't know how is your Hebrew, but MOTEC's mean-
MOTEC，我不知道你的希伯来语怎么说，但 MOTEC 的意思是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Not great
不太好
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
...
...
it means sweetheart in Hebrew, but the acronym is Modified Transgenerational Epigenetic Kinetics.
它在希伯来语中的意思是“甜心”，但缩写词是“改良的跨代表观遗传动力学”。
There are different types of genes like that, and for some of them, if you mutate, if you disrupt their function, now the effect would transmit stably for hundreds of generations.
像这样的基因有不同类型，对于其中一些基因，如果你突变，如果你破坏它们的功能，那么现在效果将稳定地传递数百代。
It would never stop.
它永远不会停止。
Because their role is to stop the inheritance from just...
因为他们的作用就是阻止继承……
You don't want to carry over something forever, otherwise it will no longer fit the environment of the parents, and you'll be prepared for the wrong things.
你不想永远继承一些东西，否则它就不再适合父母的环境，你就会为错误的事情做好准备。
So this is important.
所以这很重要。
What type of genes are they?
它们是什么类型的基因？
One gene that we studied, it's called ME2.
我们研究了一个基因，它被称为 ME2。
It's actually a gene that functions in methylation of the proteins that condense the DNA.
它实际上是一个在浓缩 DNA 的蛋白质甲基化过程中发挥作用的基因。
But then there are other genes that affect also production of small RNAs.
但还有其他基因也会影响小 RNA 的产生。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is there some mechanism that controls the duration of passage in a way that logically links up with the lifespan of the organism?
是否存在某种机制可以控制通过的持续时间，从而在逻辑上与生物体的寿命联系起来？
So, for instance, I knew my grandparents, met them.
例如，我认识我的祖父母，见过他们。
I did not ever meet my great-grandparents, and I certainly didn't meet my great-great-grandparents.
我从未见过我的曾祖父母，当然也没有见过我的曾曾祖父母。
I could imagine that my great-great-grandparents or my great-grandparents experienced certain things that were passed into their children and perhaps into their children.
我可以想象我的曾曾祖父母或我的曾祖父母所经历的某些事情会遗传给他们的孩子，或许也遗传给他们的孩子。
But it seems reasonable given that humans live somewhere between zero and 100 years, typically what now, 80 years?
但考虑到人类的寿命在 0 到 100 岁之间，通常是现在的 80 岁，这似乎是合理的？
Is that the typical lifespan, more or less?
这是典型的寿命，或多或少？
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
That if I were going to design the system, and again, I was not consulted at the design phase, I would want an adaptive trait to be passed for two generations because given how long our species lives and certainly given the way the world looks now as opposed to the turn of the previous century or the turn of the previous century, different stressors, different adapt-- different life environments.
如果我要设计这个系统，再说一次，在设计阶段没有征求我的意见，我希望适应性特征能够遗传两代，因为考虑到我们物种的寿命，当然也考虑到现在世界的样子，而不是上世纪之交或上世纪之交，不同的压力源，不同的适应——不同的生活环境。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And what I would want to pass on to my offspring, I can basically hedge pretty well.
而我想传递给我的后代的东西，我基本上可以很好地对冲。
I can place a good bet on the next 100 years, maybe the next 200, but I don't have the foggiest clue what the world is going to look like in 300 years.
我可以对未来 100 年，也许是未来 200 年做出一个很好的赌注，但我对 300 年后世界会是什么样子一无所知。
Is what I'm saying make any sense whatsoever?
我说的话还有道理吗？
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
It makes a lot of sense.
这很有意义。
And really, we need to talk about two things in response to this question.
实际上，为了回答这个问题，我们需要讨论两件事。
First of all, yes, you can imagine that the reason that the worms inherit typically for three to five generations is that this is relevant to something that happened in their environments.
首先，是的，您可以想象蠕虫通常继承三到五代的原因是这与它们的环境中发生的事情有关。
For example, we also showed that when you starve the worms, it affects the next generations, again, for a few generations.
例如，我们还表明，当你让蠕虫挨饿时，它会影响下一代，同样是几代人。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Which in itself is amazing, right?
这本身就很神奇，对吧？
I just really want to highlight that.
我只是想强调这一点。
You can imagine next generation as sort of like a genetic version of, "Be careful, kids, but I'm going to give you this extra lunch pack in your genome that protects you against the possibility of starvation." But it's also saying, and were you to have kids-
你可以想象下一代有点像基因版本，“小心点，孩子们，但我会在你的基因组中为你提供额外的午餐包，以保护你免受饥饿的影响。”但它也说，如果你有孩子的话——
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Right, so-
对了，所以——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
they have it also.
他们也有。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Yeah, so I have to just make a disclaimer that we don't know that necessarily it's adaptive.
是的，所以我必须做出免责声明，我们不知道它一定是自适应的。
It could also be damage.
也可能是损坏。
As I said, when you starve them, the next generations live longer, but this could be a trade-off for fertility or something.
正如我所说，当你让他们挨饿时，下一代会活得更长，但这可能是对生育力或其他东西的权衡。
So other labs have also shown, following our work, that if you starve the worms, the next generations are also more resistant to harsher starvation.
因此，根据我们的工作，其他实验室也表明，如果你让蠕虫挨饿，下一代也会更能抵抗更严重的饥饿。
This is not our work, but this sounds adaptive.
这不是我们的工作，但这听起来是适应性的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Okay?
好吧？
But whenever you're talking about adaptation, you have to see it in the context of evolution.
但每当你谈论适应时，你都必须在进化的背景下看待它。
There's also this famous saying, "Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution." And so it's very hard to say without doing the lab evolution experiments where we actually see who wins, the ones that inherit or the ones who don't have it, who takes over.
还有一句名言：“除了进化论之外，生物学中的一切都没有意义。”因此，如果不进行实验室进化实验，我们就很难说谁会获胜，谁会继承，谁会继承，谁会接管。
Okay?
好的？
Otherwise, it's hard to talk about whether it's adaptive or not.
否则，很难谈论它是否具有适应性。
But when it comes to the duration of the response, yes, it could be programmed to fit something.
但当谈到响应的持续时间时，是的，它可以被编程以适应某些东西。
For example, if you're talking about starvation, worms transition between periods of starvation and periods where they have a lot of food.
例如，如果您谈论的是饥饿，则蠕虫会在饥饿期和有大量食物的时期之间过渡。
So let's say they find an apple.
假设他们找到了一个苹果。
For a few generations, they will consume the apple, and then they will be starved for a while.
在几代人的时间里，他们会吃掉苹果，然后他们就会挨饿一段时间。
Perhaps this is the number of generations it takes them to finish an apple, or perhaps there are other responses also to higher temperatures.
也许这是它们完成一个苹果所需的世代数，或者也许还有其他对更高温度的反应。
If you grow worms in higher temperatures, their offsprings are different.
如果你在较高的温度下饲养蠕虫，它们的后代就会有所不同。
They change how they mate.
他们改变了交配方式。
It's what I alluded to before.
这就是我之前提到过的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We're going to get back to this-
我们要回到这个话题——
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
because it relates to cold exposure-
因为它与寒冷暴露有关-
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
which many listeners are interested in.
是很多听众感兴趣的。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
And perhaps it is somehow correlated with the cycle of the year.
也许它与一年的周期有某种关联。
Okay?
好的？
But to tell you the truth, I don't know.
但说实话，我不知道。
As I said, we go from the more artificial to the less artificial.
正如我所说，我们从更人工的东西走向更少人工的东西。
If double-strand RNA, just synthetic RNA, is the most artificial, starvation is more natural, but it's not starvation in the real context of the world, in a real apple.
如果双链RNA（只是合成的RNA）是最人工的，那么饥饿就更自然了，但它不是在真实的世界背景下，在一个真正的苹果中的饥饿。
It's a plate with or without E.
这是一个带有或不带有 E 的盘子。
coli bacteria, but it's not an apple On a tree exposed to the elements with other worms, with bacteria, with all kinds of complications.
大肠杆菌，但它不是苹果 在暴露于自然环境的树上，还有其他蠕虫、细菌和各种并发症。
And it could be that we will see different durations of heritable effects the more natural we go.
我们越自然，我们可能会看到不同持续时间的遗传效应。
It's just much less controllable and hard to do.
只是它的可控性要差得多，而且很难做到。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
And again, when we're talking about humans, part of the argument why the disbelievers, it's not about faith, but the critics say that this wouldn't happen in humans is they say that the worm's generation time is just three days.
再说一遍，当我们谈论人类时，不信者的部分争论与信仰无关，但批评者说这不会发生在人类身上，因为他们说蠕虫的世代时间只有三天。
The chances that the parents' environment will match the children's environment is very high because there's not a lot of time for the environment to change, plus they can't go very far.
父母的环境与孩子的环境相匹配的机会非常高，因为环境没有太多时间改变，而且他们也不能走得太远。
They're small.
它们很小。
There are many examples of epigenetic inheritance in plants.
植物中表观遗传的例子有很多。
This is a big field where there are very established proof for inheritance of acquired traits.
这是一个很大的领域，有非常明确的证据证明后天性状的遗传。
For epigenetic inheritance, I'll be more careful.
对于表观遗传，我会更加小心。
Inheritance of acquired traits is a more loaded term, but in plants it also happens.
获得性状的遗传是一个含义更丰富的术语，但在植物中也会发生这种情况。
And there you also say these are sessile organisms.
你还说这些是无柄生物。
They can't run away, so the environment is more constant.
它们无法逃跑，因此环境更加稳定。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, ideas, maybe just a quick example that I've heard before.
好吧，想法，也许只是我以前听过的一个简单的例子。
Tell me if I'm wrong.
告诉我我是否错了。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I very well may be.
我很可能是。
For instance, a particular species of plant that grows a straight, maybe slightly bended stalk might be exposed to some environment where in order to capture enough sunlight and other nutrients, might need to grow in a corkscrew form.
例如，生长直的、可能稍微弯曲的茎的特定植物种类可能会暴露在某些环境中，为了捕获足够的阳光和其他营养物质，可能需要以螺旋形生长。
The corkscrew form can be inherited several generations, for instance.
例如，螺旋形的形状可以遗传几代人。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Yeah.
是的。
This is an example that I don't know, but perhaps it-
这是一个我不知道的例子，但也许-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Something like that.
类似的事情。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Perhaps it-
或许它——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Someone will tell...
有人会告诉...
Trust me, the one thing we know about podcasting and YouTube is someone will tell us in the comments.
相信我，我们对播客和 YouTube 所了解的一件事是有人会在评论中告诉我们。
And please do.
请这样做。
We invite that.
我们邀请这样做。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Right.
对。
But there's a long history of epigenetic inheritance studies in plants with excellent studies, well-controlled, showing that it happens also there.
但植物表观遗传研究有着悠久的历史，出色的研究和良好的控制表明，这种情况也发生在植物上。
So this is very clear.
所以这一点非常清楚。
When it comes to humans, you could say maybe my kids will go off to live in a different continent, and they will be on the computer every day, and everything will be different, so it makes less sense to prepare them for the same hardships that I experienced.
当谈到人类时，你可以说也许我的孩子会去生活在不同的大陆，他们每天都会对着电脑，一切都会不同，所以让他们为我所经历的同样的困难做好准备是没有意义的。
However, this, in my opinion, this argument comes a lot.
然而，在我看来，这种说法很多。
It's not the best argument because it depends on the scale of how you look at things.
这不是最好的论据，因为它取决于你看待事物的程度。
We meet, for example, I'm not saying that this is inherited in humans, but we experience the same pathogens and the same viruses all the time, so perhaps it is worth preparing for them.
例如，我们见面，我并不是说这是人类遗传的，但我们一直遇到相同的病原体和相同的病毒，所以也许值得为它们做好准备。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Again, I'm not saying that it happens, but it depends on the scale.
再说一遍，我并不是说这种情况会发生，但这取决于规模。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, what you're describing makes perfect sense, and I do want to acknowledge these critics, whoever they may be.
嗯，你所描述的非常有道理，我确实想感谢这些批评者，无论他们是谁。
I do have the advantage that I don't work in this exact field, and so I'm happy to stand toe-to-toe with those critics now and say that at least in terms of an inheritance of reactions or adaptive or maladaptive traits to stress or to reward.
我确实有一个优势，那就是我不在这个领域工作，所以我很高兴现在能与那些批评者面对面地交流，至少在对压力或奖励的反应或适应性或适应不良特征的遗传方面如此。
You talked about nicotine before.
你之前谈到过尼古丁。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Passage of response to drugs of different kinds, not being specific to nicotine.
对不同种类药物的反应经过，不特定于尼古丁。
It was sort of a more general passage of some sort of information related to reactions to chemicals present in nicotine, but other drugs.
这是与尼古丁和其他药物中存在的化学物质的反应有关的某种信息的更一般性的段落。
I have long been irritated, and a little bit tickled by the fact that people say, "Oh, we have this system for stress that was really designed to keep us safe from lions and saber-tooth tigers." Sure.
长期以来，我一直对人们说的感到恼火和有点高兴，“哦，我们有这个压力系统，它的设计目的实际上是为了让我们免受狮子和剑齿虎的伤害。”当然。
But the hallmark of the stress system is that it generalizes.
但压力系统的特点是它具有普遍性。
If I get a troubling text message or if I suddenly see a dark figure in the hallway when I go to the bathroom at night that I don't recognize, both of those have the same generic response, which is the deployment of adrenaline, in both brain and body, changes in the optics of the eyes, quickening of the heart rate.
如果我收到一条令人不安的短信，或者晚上去洗手间时突然看到走廊里有一个我不认识的黑色人影，这两种情况都会有相同的一般反应，即大脑和身体中肾上腺素的分泌，眼睛光学的变化，心率加快。
Stress is by design generic, and so one could imagine that a passage of some sort of stress resilience, or a maladaptive passage to stress would be also somewhat generic, and that's actually advantageous overall.
压力在设计上是通用的，因此人们可以想象，某种压力恢复能力的转变，或者对压力的适应不良的转变也将在某种程度上是通用的，这实际上总体上是有利的。
Same thing with the reward system.
奖励制度也是如此。
We essentially have one or two chemical systems of reward.
我们本质上有一种或两种化学奖励系统。
There's the opioid system and there's a cannabinoid system, but in large part, anticipation and reward is governed by the dopamine circuits.
有阿片类系统和大麻素系统，但在很大程度上，预期和奖励是由多巴胺回路控制的。
And anticipation and reward of an ice cream cone for a kid is the same neural circuitry that's going to be repurposed when they get to reproductive age, and they are anticipating creating children with their mate.
对孩子的期待和对蛋卷冰淇淋的奖励与他们到了生育年龄时会重新调整用途的神经回路是一样的，他们期待与伴侣生下孩子。
And assuming they want to do that, the dopaminergic system's going to be engaged.
假设他们想这样做，多巴胺能系统就会参与进来。
So ice cream, sex, stress to weather, stress to famine, the biology of these more modal systems, especially in the nervous system are, again I have to be careful with the words by design, are certainly generic.
因此，冰淇淋、性、天气压力、饥荒压力，这些更模态系统的生物学，尤其是神经系统，我再次必须小心设计的词语，当然是通用的。
And so I don't see the need for immense specificity.
所以我认为没有必要非常具体。
It's not like we're-- Well, COVID just happened, so could you imagine that there's the passage of a COVID-19 specific resilience?
这并不是说我们——嗯，新冠病毒刚刚发生，所以你能想象新冠病毒 (COVID-19) 特定的恢复力会消失吗？
No, I think what would probably be passed along, if it does occur, would be some sort of resilience to viruses more generally, and that would be advantageous.
不，我认为如果真的发生的话，可能会传递出某种更普遍的对病毒的抵抗力，这将是有利的。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Right.
对。
So I agree.
所以我同意。
And this opens a question of what is the bandwidth of inheritance?
这就提出了一个问题：继承的带宽是多少？
How specific can it be that it makes sense for it to be specific?
具体到什么程度才有意义？
And in the case of C.
而就 C 而言。
elegans, the response can be very specific through this inheritance of RNAs, which are just sequence specific.
对于线虫来说，通过这种 RNA 遗传，反应可以非常具体，而 RNA 只是序列特异性的。
They downregulate.
他们下调。
They control one particular gene.
它们控制一种特定的基因。
Okay?
好的？
In other cases, it could be a very general response.
在其他情况下，这可能是一个非常普遍的反应。
And it's very interesting to think about it when we talk about inheritance of memories, which is the most interesting thing we could imagine.
当我们谈论记忆的继承时，想想就很有趣，这是我们能想象到的最有趣的事情。
Can brain activity of some sort transmit, at least in these worms?
至少在这些蠕虫中，某种大脑活动可以传播吗？
I said this disclaimer multiple times.
我多次说过这个免责声明。
In mammals, we don't know.
对于哺乳动物，我们不知道。
Times will tell.
时间会证明一切。
In worms, we know a lot.
对于蠕虫，我们了解很多。
So can worms transmit brain activity?
那么蠕虫可以传递大脑活动吗？
Do they have the specificity to do it?
他们有专门的能力去做这件事吗？
Okay?
好的？
Before I'll say that, I'll just say that we, over the years, learned a lot about the mechanisms that shuttle the RNAs between generations.
在我这么说之前，我只想说，多年来，我们了解了很多关于 RNA 在代际间穿梭的机制。
We know about genes that are needed just for that About worms would be perfectly okay, but just don't have the capacity to transfer the RNAs to the next generations.
我们知道蠕虫所需的基因是完全可以的，但只是没有能力将 RNA 转移到下一代。
We know about genes that will make the responses longer or shorter.
我们知道基因会使反应更长或更短。
We know about genes that prevent the transfer of RNA between different tissues, about genes that make certain small RNAs.
我们知道阻止 RNA 在不同组织之间转移的基因，以及制造某些小 RNA 的基因。
So we know a lot about that.
所以我们对此了解很多。
And then the question arises, we can finally ask, can memory transfer between generation?
那么问题来了，我们终于可以问了，记忆可以在代际之间转移吗？
I think that first of all, we need to define memory for this.
我认为首先我们需要为此定义内存。
And the broadest definition would be any change in your behavior because of what happened in the past, or in your response because what happened in the past or because of your history.
最广泛的定义是由于过去发生的事情而导致您的行为发生任何变化，或者由于过去发生的事情或您的历史而导致您的反应发生变化。
The more interesting part, of course, is to talk about memories that are encoded in the brain.
当然，更有趣的部分是谈论大脑中编码的记忆。
And the reason is that the brain is capable of holding much more specific and elaborate memories.
原因是大脑能够保存更具体、更复杂的记忆。
Then I think that any tissues that transmit RNA to the next generation and affect the next generation is interesting.
那么我认为任何将RNA传递给下一代并影响下一代的组织都是有趣的。
The gut, muscles, everything.
肠道、肌肉，一切。
But the brain can synthesize information about the environment and about internal state and can also think ahead.
但大脑可以综合有关环境和内部状态的信息，并且还可以提前思考。
And the most provocative thing you can say is that you could plan how somehow the fate of your next generation using your brain, after taking many things into the co-- This is without-
你能说的最具挑衅性的事情是，在考虑了很多事情之后，你可以用你的大脑以某种方式计划你下一代的命运——这是没有——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Without talking to them.
没有和他们说话。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Right.
对。
Without talking.
不说话。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
So it's again, we go back to this instruction manual.
所以，我们再次回到本使用手册。
It's like writing something into the instruction manual based on your own experience.
这就像根据自己的经验将一些内容写入使用手册一样。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Right.
对。
And can it happen?
这会发生吗？
Okay, and what is the bandwidth?
好的，带宽是多少？
Can we transfer specific things?
我们可以转移特定的东西吗？
And then I have to agree with you that I would imagine that what can transfer, and I could be wrong, is a general something sensitivity.
然后我必须同意你的观点，我认为可以转移的东西是一种普遍的敏感性，但我可能是错的。
Okay.
好的。
You can make the analogy to being inflamed or not, hypersensitive to pathogens, hypervigilant, something like this, okay?
你可以打个比方，比如发炎与否、对病原体过敏、高度警惕等等，好吗？
But it can also be something very specific.
但它也可以是非常具体的东西。
Now we have to understand that the brain uses a different language than the language of inheritance.
现在我们必须明白，大脑使用的语言与遗传语言不同。
The brain, the way we normally think about the brain is that it keeps information in synapses, in the connections between different neurons.
大脑，我们通常认为大脑将信息保存在突触中，即不同神经元之间的连接中。
When you learn something, you make some connections stronger and other connections weaker, and you wire the nervous system in a different way.
当你学习一些东西时，你会加强一些联系，而另一些联系则更弱，并且你会以不同的方式连接神经系统。
The information in the brain is synaptic, and it is in the connections.
大脑中的信息是突触，它存在于连接中。
On the other hand, heritable information of any sort has to go through a bottleneck of one cell, the fertilized egg, because we all start from just one cell.
另一方面，任何类型的遗传信息都必须经过一个细胞（受精卵）的瓶颈，因为我们都是从一个细胞开始的。
So it cannot be in the connections because this cell doesn't have any connections with other cell.
所以它不能在连接中，因为该单元格与其他单元格没有任何连接。
It's there alone.
它独自在那里。
So heritable information has to be molecular.
所以遗传信息必须是分子的。
It has to be inside this one cell.
它必须在这一个单元格内。
So the question is, can you or do you translate the information, this 3D structure information of synapses and the connection between brains in the architecture of the brain, can you somehow translate it to heritable information to a molecular form?
所以问题是，你能不能将这些信息，即突触的 3D 结构信息以及大脑结构中大脑之间的连接，以某种方式将其转化为分子形式的可遗传信息？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's an incredibly important and deep question.
这是一个非常重要和深刻的问题。
It brings to mind something that was once told to me, which as soon as I heard it was obvious, but was very important in formulating my understanding of biology, which is that a map is just the transformation of one set of points into another set of points, right?
它让我想起了曾经告诉过我的一些事情，当我听到它时，这是显而易见的，但对于形成我对生物学的理解非常重要，那就是地图只是一组点到另一组点的转换，对吗？
So a map of the world essentially is just, you take what's been drawn out in terms of the architecture and the coastlines, et cetera, and divisions between states, and you transfer that to an electronic map or a piece of paper.
因此，世界地图本质上是公正的，你可以根据建筑、海岸线等以及国家之间的划分绘制出什么，然后将其转移到电子地图或一张纸上。
Seems so obvious as sort of a duh, why are we talking about this?
看起来似乎很明显，我们为什么要谈论这个呢？
But just to make sure that people understand, what you're really talking about is, let's say the memory, and I have a very distinct memory for my childhood phone number.
但为了确保人们理解，你真正谈论的是，比如说记忆，我对童年的电话号码有非常清晰的记忆。
Phone number doesn't exist anymore.
电话号码已经不存在了。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I won't give it out because then some other person might get irritated with repeated calls.
我不会透露出去，因为这样其他人可能会对重复的电话感到恼火。
But in any case, I remember it, it's totally useless information, but it lives in my neocortex or my hippocampus or somewhere as a series of connections between neurons at the locations, as you call, synapses.
但无论如何，我记得它是完全无用的信息，但它存在于我的新皮质或海马体或某个地方，作为神经元之间的一系列连接，这些连接位于您所说的突触位置。
Would my grandchildren know that phone number?
我的孙子们会知道那个电话号码吗？
There's no reason for them-
他们没有理由——
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Absolutely no.
绝对不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No. Right?
不，对吗？
Would my children know that, unless there was some adaptive reason or some other reason for them to know, and this passage of acquired traits.
我的孩子们会知道吗，除非有某种适应性原因或其他原因让他们知道，以及这种后天特质的转变。
And what you're saying is, in order for that to happen, there has to be a transformation of the neural circuit, literally the wiring of neuron A, B, C, D that relates to and carries the information of that number, into the kind of nucleotide sequences that are contained in DNA or patterns of methylation or RNA, more likely.
你所说的是，为了实现这一点，必须对神经回路（实际上是与该数字相关并携带该数字信息的神经元 A、B、C、D 的连线）进行转换，将其转换为 DNA 或甲基化或 RNA 模式中包含的核苷酸序列（更有可能）。
So it's a transformation of one set of points in physical space to a translation of points in genetic space.
因此，它是将物理空间中的一组点转换为遗传空间中的点的平移。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Does that make...
这是否使...
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Right.
对。
And there we have many problems when it does.
当它发生时，我们会遇到很多问题。
First of all, we don't know a mechanism to translate between the two different languages, the language of the brain and the language of inheritance.
首先，我们不知道两种不同语言（大脑语言和遗传语言）之间的翻译机制。
We are not familiar with a mechanism like that.
我们对这样的机制并不熟悉。
Second, the next generation, if it's not a worm, if it's a mammal, would have a different brain.
其次，下一代，如果不是蠕虫，如果是哺乳动物，就会有不同的大脑。
Even if it was genetically identical to the parent, the wiring of the brain and the particular neuronal circuits will be different.
即使它与父母的基因相同，大脑的接线和特定的神经元回路也会有所不同。
This is true for twins.
对于双胞胎来说也是如此。
It will always be true because it depends, because it's partly random, and it depends on the environment, even if you have the same genetic instructions.
它永远是正确的，因为它取决于，因为它部分是随机的，并且它取决于环境，即使你有相同的遗传指令。
So let's say you somehow had a mechanism, miracle mechanism, to take the 3D information and translate it to the language of inheritance, you would then in the next generation have to translate it again to the brain, although it is different.
因此，假设你以某种方式拥有一种机制，奇迹机制，可以获取 3D 信息并将其翻译成遗传语言，那么你在下一代就必须将其再次翻译到大脑，尽管它有所不同。
This sounds very unlikely.
这听起来不太可能。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Okay?
好吧？
I'm playing a trick on you now, okay?
我现在就跟你玩个玩笑，好吗？
Because-
因为——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I believe it.
我相信。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Okay.
好的。
But-
但是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm easy to trick, so that's good.
我很容易被欺骗，所以这很好。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
But if this is how it happened or if this was required, it could never happen in my opinion.
但如果事情是这样发生的，或者如果这是必要的，那么我认为它永远不会发生。
Which means, and I still think that there are certain memories that cannot transfer transgenerationally, it is complex, and things that you learn about the environment that are arbitrary None of our listeners' kids will remember this conversation.
这意味着，我仍然认为有些记忆无法跨代转移，它很复杂，而且你从环境中学到的东西是任意的，我们听众的孩子都不会记得这段对话。
No way.
决不。
This is impossible.
这是不可能的。
Unless they-
除非他们——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Unless they're listening with them
除非他们和他们一起听
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
...
...
write a little note.
写一个小便条。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There are some families or parents that tell me they're listening with their kids.
有些家庭或父母告诉我他们正在和孩子一起倾听。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Right.
对。
But it cannot transmit because it's random, and these are connections that are arbitrary.
但它无法传输，因为它是随机的，而且这些连接是任意的。
So this seems to be a limitation on what can transfer.
所以这似乎是对可以转移的内容的限制。
On the other hand, so perhaps more general things could pass.
另一方面，也许更普遍的事情可以过去。
These type of things, I doubt they could.
这些类型的事情，我怀疑他们可以。
However, you can nevertheless imagine that some things that are very specific, some memories that are very specific, could nevertheless transmit from the brain after learning to the next generation.
但是，你仍然可以想象，一些非常具体的东西，一些非常具体的记忆，在学习之后仍然可以从大脑传递到下一代。
I'll give you an example.
我给你举个例子。
You can teach worms, even though they have just 302 neurons, you can teach them simple things about the world.
你可以教蠕虫，即使它们只有 302 个神经元，你也可以教它们关于世界的简单事情。
For example, you can take an odor that the worms like.
例如，您可以闻到蠕虫喜欢的气味。
The worms have thousands of odorant receptors, and they can recognize many molecules.
这些蠕虫有数千个气味受体，它们可以识别许多分子。
They can smell them, so they can find food or avoid enemies.
它们可以闻到它们的气味，这样它们就可以找到食物或躲避敌人。
You can take an odor that the worms like and pair it to something bad, like starvation, and then the worms will learn to dislike this odor.
你可以将一种蠕虫喜欢的气味与一些不好的东西（比如饥饿）配对，然后蠕虫就会学会不喜欢这种气味。
We don't know that this learning involves necessarily changing the strength of synapses.
我们不知道这种学习必然涉及改变突触的强度。
It's a possibility, but it doesn't have to be the case.
这是一种可能性，但不一定是这样。
It could be that just the receptor for this particular odor is being removed, and this is how they live.
可能只是这种特殊气味的受体被移除，而这就是它们的生活方式。
Now they won't have the receptor, they won't smell, they won't like the odor.
现在他们不再有受体，他们不会闻到，他们不会喜欢这种气味。
This is a possibility.
这是一种可能性。
This type of thing you can perhaps, not that anyone has showed it convincingly, transmit to the next generation because all it would take is an RNA that will control this particular receptor.
这种类型的东西也许可以（虽然没有人令人信服地证明了这一点）传递给下一代，因为它所需要的只是控制这种特定受体的 RNA。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Okay?
好吧？
So this is possible.
所以这是可能的。
People have shown things like that, not in C.
人们已经展示了类似的东西，但在 C 中没有。
elegans, but people have shown things like this in mammals.
线虫，但人们已经在哺乳动物身上表现出了类似的情况。
They said that you learn a certain thing, and then just in the next generation, that's a particular receptor would be methylated or would change, and this would transmit the response.
他们说，你学到了某种东西，然后在下一代，特定的受体就会被甲基化或改变，这就会传递反应。
And on the one hand, it could be true.
一方面，这可能是真的。
On the other hand, you need to understand, they'll need to prove, and this wasn't done convincingly enough yet, how exactly does the information transfer from the brain to the germ cells, and then in the next generation, from the germ cells back to the brain to where the receptor need to operate.
另一方面，你需要理解，他们需要证明，信息到底是如何从大脑转移到生殖细胞，然后在下一代，从生殖细胞回到大脑，到达受体需要运作的地方，这还不够令人信服。
And this is a challenge.
这是一个挑战。
This is the current state of the field, that this is something that needs to be proven.
这就是该领域的现状，这是需要证明的事情。
What we did in C.
我们在 C 中做了什么
elegans is we showed that the brain can communicate with the next generations using small RNAs, and that this can change behavior.
在线虫中，我们发现大脑可以使用小 RNA 与下一代进行交流，这可以改变行为。
And it doesn't require any translating between any language.
而且它不需要任何语言之间的任何翻译。
It is very simple.
这很简单。
What we've shown is that if you take a worm and you change the production of small RNAs just in its brain, in the next generations, their behavior will be different, even though you don't mess with their brains.
我们已经证明，如果你改变一条线虫大脑中小RNA的产生，那么在下一代中，即使你没有扰乱它们的大脑，它们的行为也会有所不同。
This is a paper that we published in 2019 in "Cell." We show that you just manipulate the production of endogenous natural RNAs in the worm's brain that are always made, but you change their amount, and this changes the capacity of the worms in the next generation to find food.
这是我们2019年发表在《Cell》上的论文。我们证明，你只需操纵蠕虫大脑中始终产生的内源性天然 RNA 的产生，但你改变了它们的数量，这就会改变下一代蠕虫寻找食物的能力。
Not only in one generation, but three generations down the road.
不仅是一代人，而是三代人。
And the way that it works is that perturbing the production of these small RNAs in the brain affects, in the end, the expression of a gene in the germline.
它的工作原理是，干扰大脑中这些小 RNA 的产生，最终会影响种系中基因的表达。
One gene is called SAGE 2.
其中一个基因称为 SAGE 2。
Don't know how it works, but we can do all kinds of controls where we manipulate the activity of the gene and see that this also affects the behavior.
不知道它是如何工作的，但我们可以进行各种控制，操纵基因的活动，并发现这也会影响行为。
And this gene works in the germ cells.
这个基因在生殖细胞中发挥作用。
The information needs to go from the brain to the germ cells.
信息需要从大脑传递到生殖细胞。
It doesn't need to go back from the germ cells to the brain to affect behavior.
它不需要从生殖细胞返回大脑来影响行为。
And this depends, we know that this is a true epigenetic effect because it goes on for multiple generations, and also because it requires the machinery that transfers RNAs between generations.
这取决于，我们知道这是一种真正的表观遗传效应，因为它会持续多个世代，而且还因为它需要在世代之间转移 RNA 的机制。
If you don't have the protein that physically carries the RNA between generations, it doesn't happen.
如果你没有在代际之间物理携带 RNA 的蛋白质，这种情况就不会发生。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So it has to be RNA.
所以它一定是RNA。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
It has to be RNA.
它必须是RNA。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And-
还有——
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
And we can also find the RNAs in the next generation that change.
我们还可以发现下一代的RNA发生了变化。
We sequence the actual RNAs that change in the next generation.
我们对下一代发生变化的实际 RNA 进行测序。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You mentioned that you don't know what this gene SAGE does.
你提到你不知道这个基因SAGE 的作用。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But is it reasonable to assume that it does something in the context of the nervous system, or that's unclear as well?
但假设它在神经系统中发挥作用是否合理，或者这也不清楚？
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
It is possible.
这是可能的。
It is possible, but we have reasons to believe, or experiments to show, although there could be alternative explanations, that it functions for the germline.
这是可能的，但我们有理由相信，或者实验表明，尽管可能有其他解释，但它对种系起作用。
Now, you may ask, how can you affect behavior just by changing the germ cells, right?
现在，您可能会问，如何仅通过改变生殖细胞来影响行为，对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, it would have to change the germ cells in very specific ways because, as people probably recall, the germline, the germ cells are where the inheritable information is contained.
嗯，它必须以非常特定的方式改变生殖细胞，因为正如人们可能记得的那样，生殖系、生殖细胞是包含可遗传信息的地方。
But you can imagine, for instance, adjusting the gain, or sensitivity rather, on some sort of sensory foraging system, right?
但你可以想象，例如，在某种感官觅食系统上调整增益或灵敏度，对吗？
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Right.
对。
And the interesting thing is it, again, can be quite unspecific.
有趣的是，它又可能非常不具体。
So it sounds weird that you change germ cells and it changes behavior, sperm and egg.
因此，改变生殖细胞就会改变精子和卵子的行为，这听起来很奇怪。
But if you think about it, it's trivial.
但如果你仔细想想，这其实是微不足道的。
If you castrate a dog, it behaves differently, right?
如果你阉割了一只狗，它的行为会有所不同，对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sadly, yeah.
可悲的是，是的。
I did that to my dog, and I ended up putting him on testosterone therapy later, and it brought him back.
我对我的狗这样做了，后来我让他接受睾丸激素治疗，这让他回来了。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Just as an aside.
只是作为旁白。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Yes.
是的。
This is because the germ cells affect the soma, including the brain, in many ways, by secreting certain chemicals, and also because the other cells develop from the germ cells So some information could be transmitted over development, or the course of development could be altered because of changes that occur in the germ cells.
这是因为生殖细胞通过分泌某些化学物质以多种方式影响包括大脑在内的体细胞，而且还因为其他细胞是从生殖细胞发育而来的，因此一些信息可能会在发育过程中传递，或者发育过程可能会因为生殖细胞中发生的变化而改变。
And for example, in mammals, one of the explanations for how heritable information transmits is that it just affects something very early on in development.
例如，在哺乳动物中，遗传信息如何传递的解释之一是它只会影响发育早期的某些东西。
I told you that the secret to worms' inheritance is that they have the capacity to amplify these small RNAs all the time.
我告诉过你，蠕虫遗传的秘密是它们有能力一直扩增这些小RNA。
This is what keeps it going and prevents dilution.
这就是让它持续运转并防止稀释的原因。
In mammals, we don't know of such an amplification mechanism, so you ask, how can a little bit of RNA or something without amplifying affect then the entire organism?
在哺乳动物中，我们不知道有这样的放大机制，所以你会问，一点点RNA或者没有放大作用的东西怎么能影响整个生物体呢？
And it could be that you just perturb something in the very beginning, when you just have a few cells, or even in the placenta that develops in pregnancy, and this later throws everything off.
也有可能是你在一开始就扰乱了某些东西，当你只有几个细胞时，甚至在怀孕期间发育的胎盘中，这之后一切都被打乱了。
And because of that, you have many problems, in metabolism and so on.
正因为如此，你在新陈代谢等方面会遇到很多问题。
And it's an idea of the developmental origin of health and disease.
这是健康和疾病的发展起源的想法。
Many of the functions occur early on in development.
许多功能在开发早期就出现了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So you raise a number of incredibly fascinating aspects to this.
所以你对此提出了许多令人难以置信的迷人方面。
I do have a question about one particular aspect, and feel free to pass on this for a future episode if it's going to take us too far off track.
我确实对某个特定方面有疑问，如果这会让我们偏离轨道太远，请随意将其传递到未来的剧集中。
But something you said, it really captured my attention, although I was listening to all of it, which is that the germ cells, so in the case of males, it's going to be sperm, and in the case of females, it's going to be eggs.
但你说的一些话，确实引起了我的注意，尽管我听了所有的内容，那就是生殖细胞，所以对于男性来说，它将是精子，对于女性来说，它将是卵子。
Something perhaps not coincidental about those cells and the environment that they live in is that, yes, they contain the genetic information to pass to offspring.
这些细胞和它们生活的环境也许并非巧合，它们含有传递给后代的遗传信息。
Right?
正确的？
Of course, you explained how that works.
当然，您已经解释了它是如何工作的。
But also, those cells live in a region that is rich with hormones that can be secreted, and in fact, are secreted, and through so-called endocrine signaling, communicate with other cells, not just at the level of receptors on their surface, but also can enter the genomes of those cells and modify those cells.
而且，这些细胞生活在富含可分泌激素的区域，事实上，这些细胞也被分泌，并通过所谓的内分泌信号传导与其他细胞进行交流，不仅是在其表面的受体水平上，而且还可以进入这些细胞的基因组并修改这些细胞。
In other words, it seems to me that the microenvironment of the germ cells, the testes and the ovaries, are rich with information, not just for the passage to next generations, but also for all the, as you said, all the somatic cells of the body.
换句话说，在我看来，生殖细胞、睾丸和卵巢的微环境蕴含着丰富的信息，不仅对于传给下一代，而且对于所有，正如你所说的，身体的所有体细胞。
They're telling the somatic cells of the body what to do and what to become.
它们告诉身体的体细胞要做什么以及要成为什么。
And the best example I can think about this would be puberty.
我能想到的最好的例子就是青春期。
Right?
正确的？
I would argue that one of the greatest rates of aging and transitions we go through in life is from puberty.
我认为，我们一生中经历的衰老和转变速度最快的时期之一是从青春期开始。
A child becomes a very different person after puberty.
青春期后，孩子会变成一个截然不同的人。
They look at the world differently.
他们以不同的方式看待世界。
They think about it differently.
他们的想法不同。
It's not just about the growth of the hair and the jaw and the Adam's apple and breasts and so on.
这不仅仅是关于头发、下巴、喉结和乳房等的生长。
It's a transformation of the somatic cells from the same microenvironment that the DNA-containing cells reside.
这是体细胞从含有 DNA 的细胞所在的同一微环境中进行的转化。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Right.
对。
So once you think about it like this, it becomes obvious that just by affecting the germ cells, you can affect the rest of the body.
因此，一旦您这样思考，就会发现，只要影响生殖细胞，就可以影响身体的其他部位。
And in C.
而在C.
elegans, there are experiments that show it very clearly.
线虫，有实验非常清楚地表明了这一点。
So for example, if you just take worms and prevent sperm production, it changes their capacity to smell.
举例来说，如果你只服用蠕虫并阻止精子产生，就会改变它们的嗅觉能力。
These are experiments done by others, which is obviously a brain function.
这些都是别人做的实验，这显然是大脑的功能。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
And in a castrated dog, you're not just eliminating the possibility of transfer of DNA information to subsequent generations.
对于一只被阉割的狗来说，你不仅消除了 DNA 信息传递给后代的可能性。
You're also limiting communication of the-
你还限制了-
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
A different personality.
不同的个性。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Oh, without question.
哦，毫无疑问。
My bulldog, Costello, changed after castration, and was a wonderful dog, but at some point, developed some health issues.
我的斗牛犬科斯特洛在阉割后发生了变化，是一只很棒的狗，但在某些时候，出现了一些健康问题。
The introduction of a small amount of testosterone every other day changed him fundamentally, in that case, for the better, back to a version of himself that I had only observed earlier, but also a different version of the same dog.
每隔一天引入少量睾丸激素从根本上改变了他，在这种情况下，变得更好，回到了我之前观察到的他自己的版本，但也是同一只狗的不同版本。
And no, he wasn't humping everything.
不，他并没有把一切都搞砸。
Maybe the occasional knee, particular people whose names I won't mention.
也许偶尔会膝盖受伤，特别是那些我不会提及名字的人。
But it was absolutely clear that the hormone was not just taking a system and amplifying it, it was actually modifying the system.
但绝对清楚的是，激素不仅仅是吸收并放大一个系统，它实际上是在修改该系统。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So anyway, I just wanted to highlight that.
无论如何，我只是想强调这一点。
And then now, thank you for indulging me.
现在，谢谢你对我的包容。
If you will, let's continue down this path that we were going on, because I want to make sure that we absolutely get to this issue of transmission of information about sex choice of offspring.
如果你愿意的话，让我们继续沿着我们正在走的这条路走，因为我想确保我们绝对解决关于后代性别选择的信息传递问题。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
So the worms are hermaphrodites, which means that they make both sperm and egg.
因此，蠕虫是雌雄同体，这意味着它们既产生精子又产生卵子。
But there are also males, which are much more rare, and they can choose to mate with the males or not.
但也有雄性，这种情况要少得多，它们可以选择与雄性交配或不与雄性交配。
Okay?
好的？
And when they mate with the male, it's a huge decision because it's very costly energetically, and they also risk predation and all kinds of troubles.
当它们与雄性交配时，这是一个巨大的决定，因为这会耗费大量精力，而且它们还面临着被捕食和各种麻烦的风险。
The males hurt them and reduce their lifespan when they mate with them.
雄性与它们交配时会伤害它们并缩短它们的寿命。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
People are going to draw all sorts of analogies here.
人们会在这里做出各种各样的类比。
It's inevitable, but hey, here we go.
这是不可避免的，但是嘿，我们开始吧。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So, okay.
那么，好吧。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
And most importantly for evolution, when you mate with another animal, you dilute your genome in half.
对于进化来说最重要的是，当你与另一种动物交配时，你的基因组就会稀释一半。
Because the worms can just self-fertilize and transmit the exact same genome to the next generation, but when they mate, they dilute it in half.
因为线虫可以自体受精并将完全相同的基因组传递给下一代，但当它们交配时，它们会将基因组稀释一半。
So this is a big price to pay.
所以这是一个很大的代价。
On the other hand, when you mate, you diversify your genome.
另一方面，当你交配时，你的基因组就会多样化。
So maybe some combination of gene will be good.
所以也许基因的某种组合会很好。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And we know that in humans, it's kind of interesting that the brain circuits that are associated with aversion and with approach are fairly hardwired for a number of things.
我们知道，在人类中，有趣的是，与厌恶和接近相关的大脑回路对于许多事情来说是相当硬连线的。
Like a puddle of vomit, almost everybody kind of cringes.
就像一滩呕吐物一样，几乎每个人都有点畏缩。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Plate of cookies, if you like cookies, you move towards it.
一盘饼干，如果你喜欢饼干，你就走向它。
But there's one particular word in the English and presumably the Israeli language that ought to evoke disgust, and that's incest.
但在英语和以色列语言中，有一个特定的词应该会引起厌恶，那就是乱伦。
Because incest is actually not just disgusting as a practice, but it's dangerous genetically.
因为乱伦实际上不仅是一种令人厌恶的做法，而且从基因角度来看也是危险的。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because inbreeding creates a deleterious mutation.
因为近亲繁殖会产生有害的突变。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Right.
对。
So there are studies on how people in Israeli kibbutz, for example, where they all grow together, the children live together, it used to be like that, don't date each other.
因此，有一些研究是关于以色列基布兹的人们，例如，他们一起长大，孩子们住在一起，过去就是这样，不互相约会。
Because this is the classic thing.
因为这是经典的事情。
I talked to someone from the kibbutz, he told me that's not true.
我和基布兹的一个人谈过，他告诉我那不是真的。
But yes, there are studies like this that say, but it makes sense.
但是，是的，有这样的研究表明，但这是有道理的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And in some countries, Scandinavian countries or in Lapland and Iceland where populations are small, they keep exquisite records of lineage-
而在一些国家，斯堪的纳维亚国家或者人口较少的拉普兰和冰岛，他们保存着精美的血统记录——
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Uh-huh
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in order to avoid inbreeding.
以避免近亲繁殖。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Right.
对。
So you're absolutely right.
所以你是完全正确的。
But the worms, the safe choice for them is to self-mate, and if they mate with a male They take a risk, but they diversify.
但对于蠕虫来说，对它们来说安全的选择是自我交配，如果它们与雄性交配，它们就会冒风险，但它们会多样化。
Okay?
好的？
What we found is that if you take the hermaphrodite, we can call it the female for just one second, and you stress it with high temperatures, then the next generations of worms, for three generations, mate much more with males.
我们发现，如果你把雌雄同体，我们可以称它为雌性，一秒钟，然后用高温对其进行应激，那么下一代蠕虫，三代，会更多地与雄性交配。
And they do it because the female starts secreting a pheromone that attracts the males.
它们这样做是因为雌性开始分泌一种吸引雄性的信息素。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Ah.
啊。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Okay?
好吧？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's a very cryptic mechanism.
这是一个非常神秘的机制。
It's not that she somehow changes and then goes seeking males.
并不是她以某种方式改变然后去寻找男性。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
No.
不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's that it draws males in.
正是它吸引了男性。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
It draws males.
它吸引男性。
And we know how it works.
我们知道它是如何运作的。
We think we know how it works.
我们认为我们知道它是如何运作的。
What happens is that the stress, the high temperatures, compromise the production of sperm in the hermaphrodites.
所发生的情况是，压力和高温会损害雌雄同体精子的产生。
So the hermaphrodite, they make sperm enough to make next generations, but the sperm, because of defective small RNA inherited, because RNAs are not inherited, okay, the sperm is not made optimally, so they make less sperm.
所以，雌雄同体，他们产生的精子足以产生下一代，但是精子，因为有缺陷的小RNA遗传，因为RNA不能遗传，好吧，精子没有以最佳状态产生，所以他们产生的精子较少。
And when they don't make a lot of sperm, they feel that they don't self-fertilize correctly, so they call the males by secreting the pheromones so that it would provide its own sperm, and they can continue to make babies.
当它们不能产生大量精子时，它们会觉得自己没有正确地自体受精，因此它们通过分泌信息素来召唤雄性，以便它提供自己的精子，然后它们可以继续生育后代。
Okay?
好的？
And we know this also from experiments.
我们也从实验中知道了这一点。
You just take a hermaphrodite and you kill its sperm, it starts secreting a pheromone, and the males come.
你只要抓住一只雌雄同体，杀死它的精子，它就会开始分泌信息素，然后雄性就会出现。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's a need-based system.
这是一个基于需求的系统。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Incredible.
难以置信。
And I hope people can appreciate as they're hearing this that none of this, we assume, I don't know how to speak worm, none of this, we assume, is a conscious decision in these animals.
我希望人们在听到这个消息时能够意识到，我们假设，我不知道如何说蠕虫，这些都不是这些动物有意识的决定。
Much like human mating behavior, which to us always seems so conscious, but is being governed by both conscious and subconscious decision-making.
就像人类的交配行为一样，对我们来说，交配行为似乎总是有意识的，但实际上是受到有意识和潜意识决策的控制。
None of this is an active decision to secrete the hormone to draw in more males.
所有这些都不是分泌激素来吸引更多男性的主动决定。
It's simply a biasing of probabilities, right?
这只是概率的偏差，对吗？
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The hormone is now secreted in greater quantities or greater frequency.
现在，这种激素的分泌量更大，频率也更高。
The males therefore approach more.
因此，雄性更接近。
So it's just increasing probability of interactions.
所以这只是增加了交互的可能性。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is that right?
是这样吗？
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Right.
对。
What happens normally, if you don't stress the ancestors, is that the worm starts secreting the pheromone only when they are old.
如果你不给祖先施加压力，通常会发生的情况是，蠕虫只有在年老时才开始分泌信息素。
This also, people will...
这也是，人们会...
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
When they're running out of their own fertility.
当他们耗尽自己的生育能力时。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Exactly, because they only make the sperm at a particular time, and then they run out of stem sperm.
确切地说，因为它们只在特定时间产生精子，然后它们就会耗尽干精子。
They can't self-fertilize, so they have to call the males if they want to continue to mate.
它们无法自体受精，因此如果它们想继续交配，就必须呼叫雄性。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, there's the sort of plastic surgery approach.
嗯，有一种整形手术的方法。
Okay, I'll take the heat for that one.
好吧，我会为那个人承受压力。
But it's true.
但这是真的。
I think as certain people age to a certain point and they feel that their fertility is waning, if they want offspring, they need to take any number of different approaches.
我认为，随着某些人年龄到一定程度，他们觉得自己的生育能力正在减弱，如果他们想要后代，他们需要采取多种不同的方法。
Here we're talking about a female, but we could also do the reverse, right?
这里我们谈论的是女性，但我们也可以做相反的事情，对吗？
A sperm donor, right?
精子捐献者，对吗？
But if they want to attract a lifelong mate or co-parent with somebody, oftentimes they will do things to adjust their attractiveness in any number of different ways, psychological attractiveness or physical attractiveness.
但如果他们想吸引终生伴侣或与某人共同养育孩子，他们通常会采取多种不同的方式来调整自己的吸引力，心理吸引力或身体吸引力。
I'm not afraid to bring this up because I think that the parallels are very important because I do think that every species and individuals within a species, of course, decides whether or not they want to reproduce or not, but has an inherent understanding, conscious or subconscious, about where they reside in the arc of their lifespan.
我并不害怕提出这一点，因为我认为相似之处非常重要，因为我确实认为每个物种和物种内的个体当然会决定他们是否想要繁殖，但对于他们在生命周期中所处的位置有一种内在的理解，有意识的或潜意识的。
I do believe that, not just based on experience.
我确实相信这一点，而不仅仅是基于经验。
Some people are very attuned to the passage of time being very fast, others very slow.
有些人非常适应时间的流逝非常快，而另一些人则非常适应时间的流逝。
I think that knowing how long your parents and their parents lived makes a big difference.
我认为知道你的父母和他们的父母活了多久会有很大的不同。
I have friends whose fathers, in particular, died fairly young, and all these guys basically got married and had kids really young.
我有一些朋友，他们的父亲特别年轻就去世了，而这些人基本上都很早就结婚生子了。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Right.
对。
So here, luckily for me, I don't have to get into the psychology of the worms.
所以在这里，对我来说幸运的是，我不必了解蠕虫的心理。
The explanation is just like an instinct.
这个解释就像是一种本能。
When they run out of sperm, they start secreting the pheromones and attract the males.
当它们耗尽精子时，它们开始分泌信息素并吸引雄性。
There are studies also in humans about older fathers, that children of older fathers have a higher chance of becoming autistic.
也有针对年长父亲的人类研究表明，年长父亲的孩子患自闭症的可能性更高。
There are studies-
有研究——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
40 and up, basically.
基本上40岁以上。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Yeah.
是的。
However, in this case, it's not clear that this is something epigenetic.
然而，在这种情况下，尚不清楚这是表观遗传的东西。
It could be just because of DNA damage, because it accumulates.
这可能只是因为 DNA 损伤，因为它会累积。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
And actually, nowadays, we have an episode on fertility coming up, both male and female fertility, and there are actually DNA fragmentation kits, at-home DNA fragmentation kits, or sperm analysis.
事实上，如今，我们即将有一集关于生育力的节目，包括男性和女性的生育力，并且实际上有 DNA 片段化试剂盒、家用 DNA 片段化试剂盒或精子分析。
You send the sperm back in, you don't do the DNA.
你把精子送回去，你不做DNA。
People pipetting semen at home would be an odd picture.
人们在家中吸取精液会是一幅奇怪的景象。
Let's not go there.
我们不要去那里。
But there are clinics that do this for a nominal charge.
但有些诊所会收取象征性的费用。
But I did want to ask about autism and human disease in particular.
但我确实想特别询问有关自闭症和人类疾病的问题。
Another thing that you hear sometimes, and here I want to acknowledge autism is on a spectrum.
有时你会听到另一件事，在这里我想承认自闭症是一个谱系疾病。
Some people get upset if you call it a disorder.
如果你称其为疾病，有些人会感到不安。
There are some adaptive autistic traits and et cetera.
有一些适应性自闭症特征等等。
But one thing that often comes up is this idea that two people who are more of the kind of engineering, hard science, if you will, of phenotype mate and have children, higher probability of the offspring being on the spectrum.
但经常出现的一件事是，两个更倾向于工程、硬科学（如果你愿意的话）表型的人交配并生下孩子，后代出现该谱系的可能性更高。
Some people would argue, ah, but that's already selecting for people that might have already been partially on the spectrum, so maybe it's a gene copy issue.
有些人可能会说，啊，但这已经是在选择那些可能已经部分属于该谱系的人了，所以也许这是一个基因复制问题。
I'm not asking you to comment on autism in particular, but when you hear things like that, that the children of older fathers, born from older fathers, higher probability of autism, at the level of intuition, does that strike you as an epigenetic phenomenon, as a nature-nurture mishmash, or the possibility that it's RNA passage?
我并不是要你特别评论自闭症，但是当你听到这样的事情时，即年长父亲生下的孩子，在直觉层面上，患自闭症的可能性更高，你是否会觉得这是一种表观遗传现象，一种先天与后天的混杂，还是RNA传代的可能性？
Does anything sort of trigger the whiskers, your spidey sense?
有什么东西会触发你的胡须，你的蜘蛛侠意识吗？
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
So, in that case, I would go with the most parsimonious explanation, which is it's just less fidelity, less DNA maintenance, and some damage that passes on.
因此，在这种情况下，我会采用最简洁的解释，即保真度较低，DNA 维护较少，并且会传递一些损伤。
It doesn't have to be an epigenetic thing.
它不一定是表观遗传的事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But the sperm are generated once every 60 days, so the damage must be at the level of the germ cells not having the proper machinery.
但精子每 60 天生成一次，因此损伤一定是在没有适当机制的生殖细胞水平上。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mitochondria or something like that?
线粒体或者类似的东西？
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Or the DNA repair machinery.
或者DNA修复机器。
The DNA repair machinery could be defective or could work less well in older people, leading to the constant production of germ cells with more mutation.
老年人的 DNA 修复机制可能有缺陷，或者工作效果较差，从而导致不断产生更多突变的生殖细胞。
This is a possibility.
这是一种可能性。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do we know exactly what the DNA repair machinery is?
我们到底知道DNA修复机制是什么吗？
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Yes There are many types of DNA repair.
是的 DNA 修复有多种类型。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
There's one that uses other copies of the DNA to correct.
有一种方法使用 DNA 的其他副本进行纠正。
There are ones that just recognize all kinds of lesions on the DNA and remove it.
有些病毒只能识别 DNA 上的各种损伤并将其去除。
It's a very elaborate and complicated system.
这是一个非常精密和复杂的系统。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And is it a system that is now tractable, that can be modified through pharmacology or through anything like that?
它是一个现在易于处理的系统，可以通过药理学或类似的东西进行修改吗？
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
So I don't know about drugs that improve it.
所以我不知道有什么药物可以改善它。
Maybe they exist, and I'm not aware, but it's very well understood, and many people are studying these directions.
也许它们存在，我不知道，但是很好理解，而且很多人正在研究这些方向。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
One thing that came across in the exploration of the fertility work is that what I'm about to describe is not legal in the US, it is illegal, but is legal in the UK and in other countries, is this notion of three-parent IVF-
在探索生育工作时遇到的一件事是，我要描述的三亲试管受精的概念在美国不合法，是非法的，但在英国和其他国家是合法的——
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
where it does seem that some of the eggs that persist in older females, even if fertilized, don't produce healthy embryos.
一些在老年雌性体内持续存在的卵子，即使受精，似乎也不会产生健康的胚胎。
They have chromosomal abnormalities, replications, and deletions that are problematic for the development of the embryo, such as trisomy 21, AKA Down syndrome, in part or in large part because of deficits in the mitochondrial genome.
它们具有染色体异常、复制和缺失，这些对胚胎发育造成问题，例如 21 三体，又称唐氏综合症，部分或大部分是由于线粒体基因组的缺陷造成的。
So what they now do is, because the mitochondrial genome resides mainly in the cytoplasm, they'll take an egg from the mother, the sperm from the father, but they'll take the nucleus from the mother and put that into a cytoplasm of a younger woman whose mitochondrial DNA is healthy, then use the sperm to fertilize that egg, and that's why it's called three-parent IVF, then implant that into the mother.
所以他们现在要做的是，因为线粒体基因组主要存在于细胞质中，所以他们会从母亲那里取出一个卵子，从父亲那里取出精子，但他们会从母亲那里取出细胞核，并将其放入线粒体DNA健康的年轻女性的细胞质中，然后使用精子使该卵子受精，这就是为什么它被称为三亲体外受精，然后将其植入母亲体内。
And this has been done several times in cases of mitochondrial damage or mutations in the mother.
在母亲线粒体受损或突变的情况下，这种方法已经做过好几次了。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It works.
它有效。
The question is whether or not those offspring will grow up to be healthy.
问题是这些后代能否健康成长。
So this, of course, is not just a pure divergence.
当然，这不仅仅是纯粹的分歧。
It raises a bigger question that I have for you, which is in terms of the work in either C.
这向我提出了一个更大的问题，即 C 语言中的工作。
elegans or in other model organisms, but in particular in C.
线虫或其他模式生物，但特别是线虫。
elegans, where do you see this going next?
线虫，你认为接下来会发生什么？
And if you would indulge us, I would love for you to tell us a little bit about the admittedly unpublished work that you're doing on temperature exposure and environments.
如果您愿意的话，我希望您能告诉我们一些关于您在温度暴露和环境方面所做的公认的未发表的工作。
How malleable is this system?
这个系统的可塑性有多大？
Because to me, it just seems incredibly malleable, and yet a lot of it's still cloaked off to us.
因为对我来说，它似乎具有令人难以置信的可塑性，但其中很多仍然对我们来说是隐藏的。
There's still a ton to learn.
还有很多东西需要学习。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
So assuming that we will discover similar things in humans, which we don't know that this is the case, but let's say we find it, I think there are many things you can do before you change it.
因此，假设我们会在人类身上发现类似的东西，我们不知道情况是这样，但假设我们找到了它，我认为在改变它之前你可以做很多事情。
For example, you could also change aberrant inheritance by having the parent exercise, for example.
例如，您还可以通过父项练习来更改异常继承。
And some things like this have been done.
类似这样的事情已经做过了。
For example, there are experiments in rodents where they show that overfeeding the rodents creates problems for the next generations, for the children.
例如，对啮齿动物进行的实验表明，过度喂食啮齿动物会给下一代和孩子们带来问题。
However, if you let the rodent exercise, then it corrects the aberrant inheritance.
然而，如果你让啮齿动物锻炼身体，那么它就会纠正异常的遗传。
So this is one possibility, and you can also manipulate it at the source.
所以这是一种可能，你也可以从源头上操纵它。
You can change, if it's RNAs, let's say you could, in the future perhaps if we understand how it works, actually change the composition of the heritable RNAs.
你可以改变，如果它是RNA，假设你可以，在未来，如果我们了解它是如何工作的，实际上可以改变可遗传RNA的组成。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
By eating RNAs just like the worms?
像蠕虫一样吃RNA？
An RNA sandwich?
RNA三明治？
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
No. So the RNA sandwich will be difficult because it's not...
不。所以 RNA 三明治会很困难，因为它不是……
I don't know.
我不知道。
But if you do IVF, if you do in vitro fertilization, you can perhaps change the composition of the RNAs in the stuff that you introduce.
但如果你进行 IVF，如果你进行体外受精，你也许可以改变你引入的物质中 RNA 的组成。
But way before that, what you could do, perhaps even in the not-so-far future, is use this for diagnostics.
但在那之前，您甚至可以在不久的将来，将其用于诊断。
DNA-based diagnostics for every couple that wants to have a kid.
为每对想要孩子的夫妇提供基于 DNA 的诊断。
In Israel, this is done for most couples.
在以色列，大多数夫妇都会这样做。
You can look at the DNA and look for genetic disease, but no one is looking at the RNA at the moment.
你可以通过观察 DNA 来寻找遗传疾病，但目前没有人会观察 RNA。
If we understand how it works better, we'll have another level, a whole new world to look at, and perhaps there will be some RNAs that correlate with disease that we'll say, "Okay." But the beauty is that this, unlike DNA, it's plastic.
如果我们更好地理解它是如何发挥作用的，我们就会有另一个层面、一个全新的世界来观察，也许会有一些与疾病相关的 RNA，我们会说“好吧”。但美妙之处在于，与 DNA 不同，它是塑料的。
So with DNA, this is your DNA, perhaps we can choose another embryo.
所以有了DNA，这是你的DNA，也许我们可以选择另一个胚胎。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
But here you could say perhaps, or again, in the future, this is science fiction, doesn't happen now, but if we understand this and it's true, we can say, "Maybe you should run on the treadmill a little bit.
但在这里你也许可以说，或者再说一次，在未来，这是科幻小说，现在不会发生，但如果我们理解这一点并且这是真的，我们可以说，“也许你应该在跑步机上跑一点。
This will change the profile of your RNAs, and then we will use it for IVF." Because it correlates with healthy profiles of RNAs.
这将改变你的 RNA 的特征，然后我们将用它进行 IVF。”因为它与 RNA 的健康状况相关。
This is a level that no one looks at now and holds great potential.
这是一个现在没人看的水平，潜力巨大。
Again, with a disclaimer that we don't know how it works in humans at all.
再次声明，我们根本不知道它在人类身上是如何发挥作用的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yet.
然而。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Yes.
是的。
But of course, this is why it's so interesting.
当然，这就是它如此有趣的原因。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, it's super interesting.
是的，这非常有趣。
Incredibly promising.
令人难以置信的有前途。
So along the lines of things that one can do in the short term, and your experiments on C.
因此，沿着短期内可以做的事情以及你在 C 上的实验。
elegans, I'd love for you to share with us what you're observing about cold exposure and how that impacts subsequent generations of C.
线虫，我希望您能与我们分享您对寒冷暴露的观察以及这对线虫后代的影响。
elegans.
线虫。
And if you would indulge us with the story of this discovery, like some of the earlier stories you told us, it is a surprising and fascinating one.
如果您愿意向我们讲述这一发现的故事，就像您之前告诉我们的一些故事一样，这是一个令人惊讶且引人入胜的故事。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
I'll gladly tell you about it.
我很乐意告诉你这件事。
This is not a story about transgenerational inheritance.
这不是一个关于跨代传承的故事。
It's a story about memory within one generation.
这是一个关于一代人记忆的故事。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Ah, excuse me.
啊，对不起。
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Within one generation, okay?
在一代人之内，好吗？
And as you said, the story of how it happens is it's totally by accident.
正如你所说，它是如何发生的完全是偶然的。
It's a funny story, and I'm bringing this up because I know Dana Lanschoff, who's a huge fan of your podcast, will really be happy that I mention-
这是一个有趣的故事，我提出这个是因为我知道达纳·兰肖夫（Dana Lanschoff）是你播客的超级粉丝，他会很高兴我提到——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This is her work
这是她的作品
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
...
...
this is her work, and this is unpublished work.
这是她的作品，而且是未发表的作品。
We didn't even finish it, so we're working on it.
我们甚至还没有完成它，所以我们正在努力。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Well, when it's published, we will feature the paper because I love this story.
好吧，当它出版时，我们将重点介绍这篇论文，因为我喜欢这个故事。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Oh, thanks a lot.
哦，非常感谢。
Great.
伟大的。
So what happened is that we talked about transgenerational memories, and I said that in worms, there are very long transgenerational memories.
所以我们谈到了跨代记忆，我说在蠕虫中，有很长的跨代记忆。
If a generation time for C.
如果一代时间为C.
elegans is three days, some memories last for Many generations, so way beyond the lifespan of the worm.
线虫是三天，有些记忆会持续很多代，所以远远超出了蠕虫的寿命。
The lifespan of the worm is three weeks.
蠕虫的寿命为三周。
Okay?
好的？
You have a new generation every three days, but every worm lives for three weeks.
每三天就会产生新一代，但每条蠕虫的寿命都是三周。
But there's a lot of research that shows that unlike heritable memory, which can be very long, the memories that the worms acquire during their lifetime is very short-lived.
但大量研究表明，与可能很长的遗传记忆不同，线虫在其一生中获得的记忆非常短暂。
So if you teach it something, after two hours, it forgets.
所以如果你教它一些东西，两个小时后它就会忘记。
Okay?
好的？
So, for example, you can teach the worm, you can take an odor that it likes and pair it with starvation, and then it would dislike the odor.
例如，你可以教蠕虫，你可以将它喜欢的气味与饥饿配对，然后它就会不喜欢这种气味。
And then there's a simple test.
然后是一个简单的测试。
You just put it in a plate, you put the odor in one side and the control odor in the other side, and you see whether it prefers this odor or not, and it stops preferring it.
你只要把它放在一个盘子里，你把气味放在一边，控制气味放在另一边，你看看它是否喜欢这种气味，然后它就不再喜欢这种气味了。
Okay?
好的？
There is 30 years or more of research, or 40 years of research on this, showing that the worms forget after two hours.
有30年或更长时间的研究，或者40年的研究表明，蠕虫在两小时后就会忘记。
The reason I went to study C.
我去学习C的原因
elegans is that I wanted to understand memory.
elegans 是我想了解的记忆。
Because such a simple nervous system, you say maybe I have the potential to actually understand how it works.
因为这样一个简单的神经系统，你说也许我有潜力真正理解它是如何工作的。
But this is slightly disappointing because they forget after two hours.
但这有点令人失望，因为他们在两个小时后就忘记了。
So what is it exactly, okay?
那么它到底是什么，好吗？
My idea was, and I tried to convince students to do it for 10 years, is to take the worms, teach them this association to dislike the odor that they innately like, and then just put the worms in minus 80 and freeze them completely, thaw them, and see whether they still remember after they are thawed.
我的想法是，我试图说服学生们这样做10年，就是拿这些虫子，教他们这种联想，以厌恶他们天生喜欢的气味，然后把这些虫子放在负80度的环境中，完全冷冻它们，解冻它们，看看它们解冻后是否还记得。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The Han Solo experiment.
汉·索罗实验。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Yes.
是的。
And I didn't want to do it because of cryopreservation or something like this.
我不想因为冷冻保存或类似的事情而这样做。
I wanted to do it because, as you know better than me, many theories about memory say that you need electrical activity to maintain the memory.
我想这样做是因为，正如你比我更了解的那样，许多关于记忆的理论都表明，你需要电活动来维持记忆。
You need to reverberate it in the brain.
你需要在大脑中回响它。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
During dreams or a replay of the thing or whatever.
在做梦或事情重播或其他什么的时候。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Right.
对。
And if the memories will nevertheless be kept even though the worms were frozen in minus 80, it would mean that it was kept in the absence of electricity because there's no electricity in minus 80 degrees.
如果即使蠕虫在负80度的温度下被冷冻，记忆仍然会被保留，那就意味着它是在没有电的情况下保存的，因为负80度是没有电的。
This was the idea.
这就是想法。
I asked many students, no one wanted to do it because it's not so easy and also a little crazy.
我问了很多学生，没有人愿意这样做，因为这并不容易，而且有点疯狂。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, and when the PI, the principal investigator or lab, has a pet experiment, no one wants to do that experiment.
好吧，当 PI、首席研究员或实验室进行一项宠物实验时，没有人愿意做该实验。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
That is true.
确实如此。
That is a university tool.
那是一个大学工具。
And then Dana agreed to do it, Dana Lanshaft.
然后达纳同意这样做，达纳兰沙夫特。
I was very happy, only later to find out that she ignored me completely and did a different experiment.
我很高兴，后来才发现她完全不理我，做了不同的实验。
The experiment that Dana did instead is to just take the worms, teach them the association, and place them on ice.
达纳所做的实验是只拿蠕虫，教它们关联，然后将它们放在冰上。
She wanted to see how the kinetics of memory and forgetting change in low temperature.
她想看看低温下记忆和遗忘的动力学如何变化。
Because maybe whatever memory is, the breakdown of the memory is affected by the temperature.
因为也许无论什么内存，内存的击穿都会受到温度的影响。
A very simple idea.
一个非常简单的想法。
We know that-
我们知道——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Different experiment
不同的实验
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
A different experiment.
一个不同的实验。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
But a cool experiment.
但这是一个很酷的实验。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Very cool.
非常酷。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Yeah.
是的。
And what she found is that when you place the worms on ice after you teach them, they just don't forget, even 10 times longer than control worms.
她发现，当你在教完蠕虫后将它们放在冰上时，它们就不会忘记，甚至比对照蠕虫要长 10 倍。
At that point, after 24 hours, if normal worms forget after two hours, after 24 hours, the worms will become sick.
那时，24小时后，如果正常的虫子在两小时后忘记了，24小时后，虫子就会生病。
So normally, we do shorter experiments, okay?
所以通常我们会做较短的实验，好吗？
But for two hours, the worms don't forget.
但在两个小时内，蠕虫们并没有忘记。
This is cool, but it was only the beginning.
这很酷，但这只是开始。
Because the boring explanation is just what I just said, that everything slows down in low temperatures.
因为无聊的解释就是我刚才所说的，低温下一切都会变慢。
So the breakdown of memory, again, we don't know what it is, but whatever it is, happens slower in low temperatures.
因此，我们不知道它是什么，但无论它是什么，记忆的损坏在低温下发生得更慢。
But this is not the case.
但事实并非如此。
It's not merely the physical.
这不仅仅是身体上的。
It's the response, it's the changing of the internal state of the worms which affect the memory kinetics.
这是反应，是蠕虫内部状态的变化影响了记忆动力学。
How do we know this?
我们怎么知道这一点？
There's a beautiful work over the last one years on cold tolerance in C.
在过去的一年里，有一篇关于 C 的耐寒性的精彩著作。
elegans nematodes.
线虫。
If you take the worms and you place them on ice, like she did, but longer, for 48 hours, they all die.
如果你把这些虫子放在冰上，就像她那样，但时间更长，48小时，它们就会全部死亡。
However, if you take the worms, acclimate them to lower temperatures for a few hours, five hours is the minimum, and then place them on ice, they all survive.
然而，如果你让这些蠕虫在较低的温度下适应几个小时，最少五个小时，然后将它们放在冰上，它们都会存活下来。
They become cold-tolerant.
他们变得耐寒。
And people who study this show that this involves changes in lipid metabolism and many things.
研究这一问题的人表明，这涉及脂质代谢和许多事情的变化。
So Dana took the worms, acclimated them to slightly lower temperatures, made them cold-resistant, and then taught them the association and placed them on ice.
于是达纳让这些蠕虫适应稍低的温度，使它们具有耐寒性，然后教它们这种关联，并将它们放在冰上。
And now they forgot immediately, which means that when they change their internal state to become cold-tolerant, they no longer extend memories on ice.
而现在他们立即忘记了，这意味着当他们改变内部状态变得耐寒时，他们不再在冰上延伸记忆。
Which means it's not only the temperature, because the temperature is anyway low.
这意味着不仅仅是温度，因为无论如何温度都很低。
Now they know the memory.
现在他们知道了记忆。
We took this as a starting point to understand which genes change when the worms are becoming cold-tolerant on and off ice.
我们以此为起点，了解当蠕虫在冰上和冰下变得耐冷时哪些基因会发生变化。
And we found genes that when you mutate them, the worms just remember longer always, even when they're off ice, because these are the genes that normally change when they are surprised on the ice.
我们发现，当你改变基因时，蠕虫的记忆时间总是更长，即使它们不在冰上，因为这些基因通常会在它们在冰上感到惊讶时发生变化。
And these genes are expressed just in one pair of neurons, just two out of the 302.
这些基因仅在一对神经元中表达，即 302 个神经元中的两个。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Notice he said 302, not 300.
注意他说的是 302，而不是 300。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
And we can manipulate the activities of these genes in these neurons to extend memory.
我们可以操纵这些神经元中这些基因的活动来延长记忆。
And then the punchline of everything that happened is that we found out that this neuron where these genes function, this one pair of neuron, is the only neuron in C.
然后发生的一切的要点是我们发现这些基因发挥作用的神经元，这一对神经元，是 C 中唯一的神经元。
elegans which is sensitive to lithium.
对锂敏感的线虫。
And lithium is a drug that is being given to bipolar disorder patients for decades.
锂是一种数十年来一直用于双相情感障碍患者的药物。
Although it's not entirely clear how it works, it's very, very interesting.
虽然还不完全清楚它是如何工作的，但它非常非常有趣。
It's also interesting, there's an episode, of course, in your podcast about this.
这也很有趣，当然，在你的播客中有一集是关于这个的。
You know more about this than me, a lot.
这方面你比我了解的多，很多。
But it's also interesting because it's just an atom created in the Big Bang, yet it works on our brains in such a fundamental way.
但它也很有趣，因为它只是大爆炸中产生的一个原子，但它以如此基本的方式作用于我们的大脑。
And we wanted to see whether it works also on the worm, because this neuron was tied to this memory extension phenotype that we found.
我们想看看它是否也适用于蠕虫，因为这个神经元与我们发现的这种记忆延伸表型有关。
So Dana grew the worms on lithium, removed them from lithium, taught them the association, and found out that they remember a lot longer than control worms.
因此，达纳用锂来培育蠕虫，然后将它们从锂中取出，教它们进行关联，结果发现它们的记忆力比对照蠕虫长得多。
Not only that, if you first make the worms cold-tolerant- And then lithium doesn't work on them.
不仅如此，如果你首先让蠕虫具有耐寒性——那么锂对它们就不起作用了。
So lithium switches this forgetfulness mechanism on and off.
因此，锂可以打开和关闭这种遗忘机制。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Amazing.
太棒了。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
And it's all connected to cold tolerance.
这一切都与耐寒性有关。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Amazing, and amazing for a number of reasons.
令人惊奇，而且令人惊奇的原因有很多。
And so at risk of being long-winded in my response, I just wanted to highlight something that I think will be of relevance to most people, which is when at some point we did a few episodes on memory, and I highlighted a review that was written by the great James McGaugh, one of the great mammalian memory researchers who's worked a lot on humans and mice.
因此，冒着在我的回答中冗长的风险，我只是想强调一些我认为与大多数人相关的事情，那就是在某个时候我们做了一些关于记忆的片段，我强调了一篇由伟大的詹姆斯·麦高写的评论，他是一位伟大的哺乳动物记忆研究人员，他在人类和老鼠方面做了很多工作。
And I was shocked, pun intended, and amused to learn that in medieval times, if people wanted children to remember lessons, they could be religious lessons or school doctrine or whatever it was, mathematics, they would take children, teach them, and then throw them into cold water to introduce a memory-instilling event.
我很震惊，双关语，也很有趣地发现，在中世纪，如果人们想让孩子记住课程，他们可能是宗教课程或学校教义或其他什么，数学，他们会带孩子去教他们，然后把他们扔进冷水里，引入记忆灌输事件。
And we now know that the memory-instilling event is the release of adrenaline in the body, which makes perfect sense if you think about traumatic events, but this whole general mechanism also applies to the learning of other types of information.
我们现在知道，记忆灌输事件是体内肾上腺素的释放，如果你考虑创伤事件，这是完全有道理的，但整个一般机制也适用于其他类型信息的学习。
And so if I understand correctly about the role of lithium and the role of cold in the experiments that you just described, there's some general state switch, some internal state switch that says what happened in the minutes or hours preceding this was important.
因此，如果我正确理解了你刚才描述的实验中锂的作用和冷的作用，就会有一些一般的状态转换，一些内部状态转换表明在此之前的几分钟或几小时内发生的事情很重要。
It acts as sort of like a highlighter pen-
它的作用有点像荧光笔——
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Exactly
正是如此
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in the book of experiences.
经验书上。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I'm absolutely curious to know whether or not this is an RNA-dependent mechanism in some way.
我非常想知道这在某种程度上是否是一种 RNA 依赖性机制。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
This we don't know.
这个我们不知道。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So is this literally like the highlighter in the IKEA instruction book?
那么这真的像宜家说明书上的荧光笔吗？
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
This we don't know.
这个我们不知道。
This we don't know, and as I said, this is not even a finished work.
我们不知道这一点，正如我所说，这甚至还不是完成的作品。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
It's not peer-reviewed.
它没有经过同行评审。
It's just the state that I told you about, but it's very exciting for me to go into this new field and once it's out, I'd be happy to talk more about it, and think about the implications and the connections to other things and more about the mechanisms.
这只是我告诉你的状态，但进入这个新领域对我来说非常令人兴奋，一旦它出来，我很乐意更多地谈论它，并思考它的含义和与其他事物的联系以及更多关于它的机制。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Well, thank you for sharing it with us, despite the fact that it's not finished.
好吧，谢谢您与我们分享，尽管它还没有完成。
People now know that it's also not finished, and I love a good cliffhanger.
人们现在知道它还没有完成，我喜欢一个扣人心弦的故事。
So we await the full conclusion and interpretation of these results.
因此，我们等待这些结果的完整结论和解释。
Today you've taken us on an amazing journey through the genome, RNA, short interfering RNAs, a ton of history of prior experiments, some of which ended tragically, many of which fortunately did not, and they were true triumphs and, in particular the work in your laboratory, which is just incredible, and also this introduction of model organisms.
今天，您带我们踏上了一段奇妙的旅程，了解了基因组、RNA、短干扰RNA、大量先前实验的历史，其中一些实验以悲剧告终，其中许多幸运地没有，它们是真正的胜利，特别是您实验室的工作，这是令人难以置信的，还有模型生物的引入。
So and I only mentioned a short handful of the things that you've taught us about today.
所以我只提到了您今天教给我们的一小部分内容。
So first I want to extend thanks for the incredible teaching.
首先我要感谢您令人难以置信的教学。
I also want to say thank you for something equally important, that absolutely came through, but is what initially brought me to explore you and your work more, although I had certainly heard of you, which is that your spirit and kind of approach to biology is an extremely unique and intoxicating one.
我还想说谢谢你做的一些同样重要的事情，这绝对是成功的，但正是最初促使我更多地探索你和你的工作的原因，尽管我肯定听说过你，那就是你的精神和生物学方法是一种极其独特和令人陶醉的。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Thank you.
谢谢你。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's even, I'd venture to call it seductive.
甚至，我敢说它很诱人。
I do believe that whether or not it's music or poetry or science or mathematics, that the spirit behind something dictates the amount of intelligence and precision with which that thing is carried out, and it absolutely comes through.
我确实相信，无论是音乐、诗歌、科学还是数学，某件事背后的精神决定了这件事执行的智慧和精确度，而且它绝对能够实现。
So if I'm making you-
所以如果我让你-
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Thanks a lot
非常感谢
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
feel on the spot about this, I've succeeded.
现场感觉这一点，我已经成功了。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Thank you.
谢谢你。
Thank you very much.
非常感谢。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But I know that the listeners can feel it.
但我知道听众能感受到。
It's a felt thing, so thank you.
这是一个感觉，所以谢谢你。
There are many scientists out there, fewer with this phenotype and even fewer that I think that can communicate with such articulate precision.
那里有很多科学家，但具有这种表型的科学家很少，我认为能够以如此清晰的精度进行交流的科学家就更少了。
So thank you so much.
非常感谢。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Thanks a lot.
非常感谢。
Thank you.
谢谢。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's been a real pleasure.
这真是一种乐趣。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Pleasure was all mine.
快乐全是我的。
Thanks a lot.
多谢。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Great.
太棒了。
Well, we'll do it again, and we'll learn about all the incredible things you're doing trying to transform science, as it were, at the level of publishing, at the level of social media, because there's a whole other discussion there.
好吧，我们会再做一次，我们会了解你们在出版层面、社交媒体层面上试图改变科学的所有令人难以置信的事情，因为那里还有其他的讨论。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Meanwhile, we will of course point people in the direction of you and to learn more about your work, and I look forward to hearing the conclusion of Dana's studies.
同时，我们当然会为人们指明您的方向并更多地了解您的工作，我期待听到达纳的研究结论。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Thanks a lot.
非常感谢。
It's been a real pleasure.
这真是一种乐趣。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thank you for joining me today for my discussion with Dr. Oded Rechavi about genetics, inheritance, the epigenome, and transgenerational passage of traits.
感谢您今天与我一起与 Oded Rechavi 博士讨论遗传学、遗传、表观基因组和性状的跨代传承。
If you're learning from and are enjoying the podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel.
如果您正在学习并喜欢播客，请订阅我们的 YouTube 频道。
That's a terrific zero-cost way to support us.
这是支持我们的绝佳零成本方式。
In addition, please subscribe to the podcast on Spotify and Apple.
此外，请订阅 Spotify 和 Apple 上的播客。
And on both Spotify and Apple, you can leave us up to a five-star review.
在 Spotify 和 Apple 上，您都可以给我们五星级的评价。
If you have questions for us or comments or suggestions about topics you'd like us to cover or guests you'd like me to include on the Huberman Lab Podcast, please put those in the comments section on YouTube.
如果您对我们有疑问，或者对您希望我们报道的主题或您希望我在 Huberman 实验室播客中加入的嘉宾有意见或建议，请将这些意见或建议放入 YouTube 的评论部分。
I do read all the comments.
我确实阅读了所有评论。
In addition, please check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode.
此外，请查看今天节目开头和整个节目中提到的赞助商。
That's the best way to support this podcast.
这是支持这个播客的最佳方式。
Not so much on today's episode, but on many previous episodes of the Huberman Lab Podcast, we discuss supplements.
今天的节目不多，但在休伯曼实验室播客的许多以前的节目中，我们讨论了补充剂。
While supplements aren't necessary for everybody, many people derive tremendous benefit from them, for things like improving sleep, improving focus, and for hormone support.
虽然补充剂并不是每个人都需要的，但许多人都从它们中获得了巨大的好处，例如改善睡眠、提高注意力和支持激素。
The Huberman Lab Podcast is proud to partner with Momentous Supplements.
Huberman 实验室播客很荣幸能与 Momentous Supplements 合作。
We've done that for several reasons.
我们这样做有几个原因。
First of all, Momentous Supplements are the very highest quality.
首先，重要的补充剂是最高品质的。
Also, they tend to focus on single-ingredient formulations, which makes it very straightforward to build the most cost-effective and biologically effective supplement regimen for you.
此外，他们倾向于专注于单一成分配方，这使得为您构建最具成本效益和生物有效的补充方案变得非常简单。
We've also partnered with Momentous because we realize that many listeners of this podcast reside outside of the United States, and fortunately, Momentous ships internationally.
我们还与 Momentous 合作，因为我们意识到该播客的许多听众居住在美国境外，幸运的是，Momentous 的业务遍布全球。
If you'd like to learn more about the supplements discussed on the Huberman Lab Podcast, you can go to Live Momentous, spelled O-U-S, so that's livemomentous.com/huberman.
如果您想了解有关 Huberman 实验室播客上讨论的补充剂的更多信息，您可以访问 Live Momentous，拼写为 O-U-S，即 livemomentous.com/huberman。
If you're not already following us on social media, please feel free to do so.
如果您还没有在社交媒体上关注我们，请随时关注我们。
We are hubermanlab on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, and LinkedIn.
我们在 Instagram、Twitter、Facebook 和 LinkedIn 上是 hubermanlab。
And at all those places, I cover information, some of which overlaps with the content of the Huberman Lab Podcast, but much of which is distinct from content on the Huberman Lab Podcast.
在所有这些地方，我都会介绍一些信息，其中一些与胡伯曼实验室播客的内容重叠，但其中大部分与胡伯曼实验室播客的内容不同。
So again, it's hubermanlab on all social media channels.
再说一次，所有社交媒体渠道上都是 hubermanlab。
The Huberman Lab Podcast also has a so-called Neural Network Newsletter.
Huberman 实验室播客还有所谓的神经网络通讯。
This is a zero-cost monthly newsletter that consists of podcast summaries and so-called toolkits, and those toolkits range from things like a toolkit for sleep, for focus, for controlling dopamine, deliberate cold exposure, for increasing focus, and much, much more.
这是一份零成本的每月通讯，由播客摘要和所谓的工具包组成，这些工具包的范围包括睡眠工具包、注意力工具包、控制多巴胺工具包、故意冷暴露工具包、增强注意力工具包等等。
If you want to sign up for that newsletter, you can go to hubermanlab.com, go to the menu, scroll down to Newsletter, you simply provide your email, and I assure you we do not share your email with anybody, and again, it's a completely zero-cost newsletter.
如果您想注册该新闻通讯，您可以访问 hubermanlab.com，进入菜单，向下滚动到新闻通讯，您只需提供您的电子邮件，我向您保证，我们不会与任何人分享您的电子邮件，而且，这是一个完全零成本的新闻通讯。
Find it at hubermanlab.com.
在 hubermanlab.com 上找到它。
Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Oded Rechavi, and last but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.
再次感谢您参加今天与 Oded Rechavi 博士的讨论，最后但同样重要的是，感谢您对科学的兴趣。