Dr. Noam Sobel: How Smells Influence Our Hormones, Health & Behavior
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.
欢迎来到休伯曼实验室播客，我们在这里讨论科学和基于科学的日常生活工具。
I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.
我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。
Today, my guest is Dr. Noam Sobel.
今天，我的嘉宾是诺姆·索贝尔博士。
Dr. Noam Sobel is a professor of neurobiology in the Department of Brain Sciences at the Weizmann Institute of Science.
诺姆·索贝尔博士是魏茨曼科学研究所脑科学系的神经生物学教授。
His laboratory studies olfaction and chemosensation.
他的实验室研究嗅觉和化学感觉。
Olfaction is, of course, our sense of smell.
嗅觉当然是我们的嗅觉。
Chemosensation is our ability to respond to chemicals in our environment.
化学感觉是我们对环境中的化学物质做出反应的能力。
Today, you are going to learn some absolutely incredible facts about how you interact with the world and other people around you.
今天，您将了解一些关于如何与世界和周围其他人互动的绝对令人难以置信的事实。
For instance, you will learn that humans can smell things around them as well as dogs can.
例如，您将了解到人类可以像狗一样闻到周围的事物。
In fact, humans are incredibly good at sensing the chemical world around them.
事实上，人类非常擅长感知周围的化学世界。
You also learn, for instance, that every time you meet somebody, you are taking chemicals from that person, either from the chemical cloud that surrounds them or directly from the surface of their body, and you are actually applying it to your own body, and you are processing information about that person's chemicals to determine many things about them, including how stressed they are, their hormone levels, things that operate at a subconscious level on your brain and nervous system and that impact your emotions, your decision-making, and who you choose to relate to or not to relate to.
例如，你还会了解到，每次你遇到某人时，你都会从那个人那里获取化学物质，无论是从他们周围的化学云还是直接从他们身体的表面，你实际上是在将其应用到你自己的身体上，并且你正在处理有关那个人的化学物质的信息，以确定关于他们的许多事情，包括他们的压力有多大，他们的激素水平，在你的大脑和神经系统的潜意识水平上运作的东西，这些东西会影响你的情绪，你的决策，以及你选择与谁交往或不与谁交往。
You will also learn that tears, yes, the tears of others, are impacting your hormone levels in powerful ways.
您还将了解到，眼泪，是的，其他人的眼泪，正在以强大的方式影响您的激素水平。
You will also learn that every so often, actually on a regular schedule, there is an alternation of ease through which you can breathe through one nostril or the other, and that alternation reflects an underlying dynamic of your nervous system and has a lot to do with how alert or sleepy you happen to be.
您还将了解到，每隔一段时间，实际上是有规律地，您可以通过一个鼻孔或另一个鼻孔呼吸，这种轻松的交替，这种交替反映了您的神经系统的潜在动态，并且与您的警觉或困倦程度有很大关系。
The list of things that Dr. Noam Sobel's laboratory has discovered that relate to everyday life and that are going to make you say, "Wow, I can't believe that happens," but then go out into the real world and actually observe that that happens in ways that are incredibly interesting just goes on and on.
诺姆·索贝尔博士的实验室发现的一系列与日常生活相关的事情会让你说，“哇，我不敢相信这种事会发生”，但随后走进现实世界，实际观察到这种情况以非常有趣的方式发生。
In fact, his laboratory discovered that we are always sensing our own odors.
事实上，他的实验室发现我们总是能感觉到自己的气味。
That's right.
这是正确的。
Even though you might not notice your own smell, you are always sensing your own odor cloud, and throughout the day, you periodically smell yourself deliberately, even though you might not realize it, in order to change your cognition and behavior.
即使你可能没有注意到自己的气味，但你总是能感觉到自己的气味云，并且在一天中，你会定期故意闻自己的气味，即使你可能没有意识到这一点，以改变你的认知和行为。
I first learned of Dr. Sobel's laboratory through a rather odd observance.
我第一次了解到索贝尔博士的实验室是通过一次相当奇怪的活动。
That observance took place when I was a graduate student many years ago at UC Berkeley.
许多年前，当我还是加州大学伯克利分校的一名研究生时，就举行了这个纪念活动。
At the time, Noam Sobel was a professor at UC Berkeley.
当时，诺姆·索贝尔是加州大学伯克利分校的教授。
As I mentioned before, he has since moved to the Weizmann.
正如我之前提到的，他后来搬到了魏茨曼。
Well, I was walking through the Berkeley campus, and I saw people on their hands and knees, but with their head very close to the ground, and their eyes were covered, their hands were covered, their mouths were covered, and only their nose was exposed.
嗯，我在伯克利校园里散步，我看到人们手脚并用，但是他们的头离地很近，他们的眼睛被蒙住，他们的手被蒙住，他们的嘴被蒙住，只露出鼻子。
And what I was observing was an experiment being conducted by the Sobel laboratory in which humans were following a scent trail.
我观察到的是索贝尔实验室正在进行的一项实验，其中人类追踪气味踪迹。
That scent trail was actually buried some depth underneath the earth, and yet they could follow that scent trail with a high degree of fidelity.
那条气味踪迹实际上埋藏在地底深处，但他们却可以高度保真地追踪那条气味踪迹。
It was from that experiment and other experiments done in Dr. Sobel's laboratory at Berkeley and at the Weizmann, involving neuroimaging and a number of other tools and techniques, that revealed the incredible power of human olfaction and humans' ability to follow scent trails if they need to.
正是通过该实验以及索贝尔博士在伯克利分校和魏茨曼实验室进行的其他实验，涉及神经成像和许多其他工具和技术，揭示了人类嗅觉的不可思议的力量以及人类在需要时跟踪气味踪迹的能力。
And that, of course, led to many other important discoveries, some of which I alluded to a few moments ago, but you are going to learn about many, many other important discoveries in the realm of olfaction and chemosensation that have been carried out by Dr. Sobel's laboratory through the course of today's episode.
当然，这导致了许多其他重要的发现，其中一些我刚才提到过，但是您将在今天的节目中了解索贝尔博士的实验室在嗅觉和化学感觉领域进行的许多其他重要发现。
And by the end of today's episode, I assure you that you will never look at or smell the world around you the same way again.
在今天的节目结束时，我向您保证，您将永远不会再以同样的方式看待或闻到周围的世界。
Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.
在开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。
It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public.
然而，我的愿望和努力的一部分是向公众提供有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本消费者信息。
In keeping with that theme, I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast.
为了与这个主题保持一致，我要感谢今天播客的赞助商。
Speaker 3:
演讲者3：
There is so much NFL on ESPN right now.
ESPN 上现在有很多 NFL 节目。
Monday Night Football, plus pre-game and post-game.
周一橄榄球之夜，以及赛前和赛后。
NFL Live, NFL Prime Time.
NFL 直播，NFL 黄金时间。
Everything you need to stay on top of every game, every week.
每周掌握每场比赛所需的一切。
Unbelievable.
难以置信。
And now NFL Network is on the ESPN app.
现在 NFL Network 已登陆 ESPN 应用程序。
More football, more coverage, more ways to watch.
更多足球比赛、更多报道、更多观看方式。
Football's on all season long on ESPN and streaming on the ESPN app.
ESPN 提供整个赛季的足球赛事直播，并通过 ESPN 应用程序进行直播。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And now for my discussion with Dr. Noam Sobel.
现在我与诺姆·索贝尔博士进行讨论。
Dr. Sobel.
索贝尔博士。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Noam.
诺姆。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Noam, welcome.
诺姆，欢迎。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Thank you.
谢谢你。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I must say, I am extremely excited for this conversation.
我必须说，我对这次谈话感到非常兴奋。
I've been a huge fan of your work for more than a decade or two.
一两年来我一直是你作品的忠实粉丝。
Yes?
是的？
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Kind of frightening.
有点可怕。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
But yeah.
但是是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We overlapped at UC Berkeley some time ago, although we did not meet, and we-
前段时间我们在加州大学伯克利分校重叠，虽然我们没有见面，但我们——
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Although we lived in the same apartment.
虽然我们住在同一间公寓。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And we just learned that the amazing apartment that you moved out of was the apartment that my girlfriend and I at the time moved into in 2006, I believe.
我们刚刚得知，您搬出的那套令人惊叹的公寓是我和我女朋友在 2006 年搬进的公寓，我相信。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So, we've shared quite a few things.
所以，我们分享了很多东西。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Certainly.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And today I'd love for you to share with us all about the amazing landscape of chemosensation, in particular olfaction, or sense of smell, and some related perceptual abilities or subconscious abilities, including pheromones, et cetera.
今天，我希望您能与我们分享化学感觉的奇妙景观，特别是嗅觉或嗅觉，以及一些相关的感知能力或潜意识能力，包括信息素等。
To get everybody on the same page, I'd like to just start off by asking, what are the major components of our ability to smell?
为了让每个人都达成共识，我想首先问一下，我们的嗅觉能力的主要组成部分是什么？
Obviously, or I like to think it involves the nose at some level.
显然，或者我喜欢认为它在某种程度上涉及鼻子。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
It does.
确实如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
To what extent is that mixed in with other senses, like taste?
它在多大程度上与其他感官（例如味觉）混合？
And perhaps more importantly, what about the chemicals that we are sensing through this thing, and for those of you listening and not watching, I'm tapping my nose, that we are not aware of?
也许更重要的是，我们通过这个东西感知到的化学物质怎么样？对于你们这些听而不看的人来说，我正在轻拍我的鼻子，而我们没有意识到？
The chemicals that we're inhaling and making sense of without our awareness.
我们在不知不觉中吸入并理解的化学物质。
If you could just give us the top contour Or even deep contour, if you like, of the parts list and the various roles they play.
如果您可以给我们零件清单的顶部轮廓，或者甚至是深层轮廓（如果您愿意）以及它们所扮演的各种角色。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
So you've asked a lot of questions at once.
所以你一下子问了很多问题。
I'll start with a little comment on the way you said smelling through our nose, which we indeed do, but we also smell through our mouth, actually.
我首先对你所说的通过鼻子闻气味的方式做一些评论，我们确实这样做，但实际上我们也通过嘴闻气味。
There's a process referred to as retronasal olfaction, where odorants come up through the back of our throat and out of our nose, the reverse way, and we smell things that way as well.
有一个称为鼻后嗅觉的过程，其中气味物质通过我们的喉咙后部并从我们的鼻子中出来，以相反的方式，我们也以这种方式闻到东西。
And in fact, a big part of the contribution of olfaction to food and taste comes from that, from retronasal olfaction.
事实上，嗅觉对食物和味道的贡献很大一部分来自鼻后嗅觉。
But primary olfaction is referred to as orthonasal olfaction, that is through our nose.
但初级嗅觉被称为鼻前嗅觉，即通过我们的鼻子。
We sniff, and sniffing is a big thing.
我们嗅，嗅是一件大事。
Well, I have a sense we might talk about that a lot today in all sorts of contexts.
嗯，我有一种感觉，我们今天可能会在各种情况下多次讨论这个问题。
So we sniff in through our nose.
所以我们用鼻子嗅。
And to answer your general question of the organization of the system, so airborne molecules travel up our nose, a distance in the human of about six or seven centimeters to about here, where they interact with, I will use the word sheet of receptors, but sheet is a bit misleading here.
为了回答你关于系统组织的一般问题，空气中的分子沿着我们的鼻子移动，距离人类大约六到七厘米，到这里，它们相互作用，我将使用“受体表”这个词，但“表”在这里有点误导。
It's not a sheet.
这不是一张纸。
It's very convoluted.
这非常复杂。
We have about seven million such receptors lining a structure known as the olfactory epithelium.
我们有大约七百万个这样的受体，排列在称为嗅觉上皮的结构中。
This is the sensory surface of the olfactory system, the olfactory epithelium.
这是嗅觉系统的感觉表面，即嗅上皮。
Again, probably about six or seven million receptors in the human, probably of about 350 different kinds.
同样，人体大约有六七百万个受体，大约有 350 种不同的种类。
So that's amazing.
所以这太棒了。
That means a meaningful percentage of your genome is devoted just to this, just to the kinds of olfactory receptor subtypes you have in your nose.
这意味着你的基因组中有很大一部分专门用于此，专门用于你鼻子中的嗅觉受体亚型。
By the way, I can share an amusing story.
顺便说一句，我可以分享一个有趣的故事。
I would imagine amusing stories are good for podcasts.
我认为有趣的故事适合播客。
So that number of six or seven million receptors is probably not very well-grounded.
因此，六七百万个受体的数量可能不太有根据。
It's hard to count, but it's reasonably grounded.
虽然很难统计，但也是有根据的。
And there was this thing roaming around in the literature about bloodhounds having a billion receptors in their nose, which is why they're so amazing.
文献中流传着这样一件事：猎犬的鼻子里有十亿个受体，这就是它们如此神奇的原因。
And this number, it sort of propagated through the literature.
这个数字是通过文献传播的。
And our lab has written, over the years, a few review chapters, and we were repeatedly writing the olfaction chapter for one of these large textbooks, the "Gazzaniga Handbook of Cognitive Neuroscience," I think it's called.
多年来，我们的实验室写了一些评论章节，并且我们反复为其中一本大型教科书编写嗅觉章节，我认为它被称为“认知神经科学的加扎尼加手册”。
And we had that in there as well somewhere, and one time when we were renewing the chapter for a new version of the book, I told the graduate student who was leading that at the time, Araya Sharoun, she's now a professor at Tel Aviv University, I told her, "Check that reference out.
我们在某个地方也有这样的内容，有一次，当我们为新版本的书续订章节时，我告诉当时负责该内容的研究生 Araya Sharoun，她现在是特拉维夫大学的教授，我告诉她，“检查一下参考文献。
Where in the world did that come from?" And we started going back and back.
这到底是从哪里来的？”我们开始往返。
And it turns out it comes from a textbook, an Australian textbook.
事实证明它来自一本教科书，一本澳大利亚教科书。
And we found the author of the textbook, and we wrote her, and I said, "Look, there's this thing in the literature of a billion receptors in the bloodhound.
我们找到了这本教科书的作者，给她写了信，我说：“看，文献中有关于寻血猎犬有十亿个受体的东西。
Where did that come from?" And surprisingly, she answered me.
那是从哪里来的？”令人惊讶的是，她回答了我。
And I was hoping to get a reference, right?
我希望能得到参考，对吗？
But it wasn't a reference.
但这不是参考。
And this is where it really becomes funny for us, because she said, "I was once at a lecture of an olfaction geneticist by the name of Doron Lancet, and he said that in the lecture." Now, this is really funny because she's in Australia, this is all over the world, this number, and I'm writing her from Israel, and Doron Lancet is in the building next to me, okay?
这对我们来说真的很有趣，因为她说，“我曾经参加过一位名叫多伦·柳叶特（Doron Lancet）的嗅觉遗传学家的演讲，他在演讲中说了这句话。”现在，这真的很有趣，因为她在澳大利亚，这是世界各地的号码，我从以色列给她写信，而多伦·柳叶刀就在我旁边的大楼里，好吗？
He's in Weizmann Institute of Genetics.
他在魏茨曼遗传学研究所工作。
He used to be.
他曾经是。
He's retired now.
他现在已经退休了。
And he had meaningful contributions in the history of olfaction.
他在嗅觉史上做出了有意义的贡献。
So I picked up the internal phone and I said, "Hey, Doron.
于是我拿起内线电话，说道：“嘿，多伦。
Did you say that there's a billion receptors in the bloodhound nose?" And he said, "What's a bloodhound?" And so this is totally made up, right?
你是说猎犬鼻子里有十亿个受体吗？”他说：“什么是寻血猎犬？”所以这完全是编造的，对吧？
It totally made up, and it propagated.
它完全是编造出来的，并且传播开来。
You can probably go into Google and type, like, a billion receptors in the bloodhound, and you'll get a lot of hits.
你可能可以进入谷歌并输入，例如，寻血猎犬的十亿个受体，你会得到很多点击。
But there was absolutely no evidence for that.
但绝对没有证据证明这一点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Amazing.
太棒了。
And not just amazing in light of what it tells us about olfaction in bloodhounds or otherwise, but amazing because it sheds light on just how much of what is in textbooks, scientific and medical, is absolutely wrong.
令人惊奇的不仅是它告诉我们关于猎犬或其他动物的嗅觉的信息，而是因为它揭示了教科书、科学和医学中的内容有多少是绝对错误的。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Things propagate, and you cite yourself.
事情传播，你引用自己。
So we fixed that in that version of the-
所以我们在那个版本中修复了这个问题-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Great
太棒了
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
...
...
and so to finish the line, so odorants interact with these receptors, here in our epithelium, where they undergo what is referred to as transduction.
为了完成这条线，气味剂与我们上皮细胞中的这些受体相互作用，在那里它们经历所谓的转导。
That is, the odorants dock at a receptor and turn into a neural signal or force the receptor to respond in a neural signal.
也就是说，气味剂停靠在受体上并转化为神经信号或迫使受体以神经信号作出反应。
And this neural signal, in fact, action potentials, not gradient potentials of any kind, propagates via the olfactory nerve.
事实上，这种神经信号是动作电位，而不是任何类型的梯度电位，通过嗅觉神经传播。
Now, this is a nerve that goes from our epithelium, right here.
现在，这是一条从我们的上皮细胞发出的神经，就在这里。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Behind the forehead.
额头后面。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
No. Well, yeah.
不，嗯，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Here, through the thinnest part of our skull, an area referred to as the cribriform plate, which is perforated.
在这里，穿过我们头骨最薄的部分，一个被称为筛板的区域，它是穿孔的。
It has a lot of holes.
它有很多洞。
The nerve goes through those holes and synapses at the first target in the brain, which is the olfactory bulb.
神经穿过这些孔和突触到达大脑的第一个目标，即嗅球。
In humans, that forms an interesting point of sensitivity, because a lot of people lose their sense of smell due to trauma because of that structure.
在人类中，这形成了一个有趣的敏感点，因为很多人由于这种结构而因创伤而失去了嗅觉。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
A head hit type trauma.
头部撞击型外伤。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Well, yes, although, you denoted hitting on the front of the head, which is where all this real estate is, but actually, the more common cause for losing your sense of smell for trauma is the back of the head because of what's referred to as a contrecoup injury.
嗯，是的，虽然，你说的是头部前部受到撞击，这是所有这些房地产所在的地方，但实际上，因创伤而失去嗅觉的更常见原因是头部后部，因为所谓的对冲损伤。
So as your listeners probably know, our brain is floating in liquid, in CSF, in cerebrospinal fluid inside our skull, and when we get hit in the back of the head, the brain has this forward and backward movement
因此，正如您的听众可能知道的那样，我们的大脑漂浮在液体中，在脑脊液中，在我们头骨内的脑脊液中，当我们的后脑勺受到撞击时，大脑会进行这种前后运动
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In the liquid in the skull, it sort of crashes.
在头骨的液体中，它有点崩溃。
It can crash against the front of the skull, which is why, in a contrecoup injury, you also often have frontal damage.
它可能会撞击头骨的前部，这就是为什么在意外伤害中，你的前部也经常受到损伤。
But what happens is that this generates a shearing motion on the cribriform plate, and the olfactory nerve is severed.
但发生的情况是，这会在筛板上产生剪切运动，嗅觉神经被切断。
And if it's completely severed, it's lost.
如果它被完全切断，它就会丢失。
Forever?
永远？
Because my understanding is that the olfactory sensory neurons are among the few central nervous system neurons in adult humans that can regenerate.
因为我的理解是，嗅觉感觉神经元是成年人中少数可以再生的中枢神经系统神经元之一。
So- Or replenish themselves.
所以——或者补充自己。
Right.
正确的。
So again, there are a few questions in one.
再说一遍，有几个问题。
Yeah, that's okay.
是的，没关系。
So first of all- We will spin many plates simultaneously If it's completely severed, completely, then yes, you're lost.
所以首先 - 我们将同时旋转许多板块 如果它完全被切断，完全，那么是的，你就迷路了。
Forever.
永远。
Yeah.
是的。
If it's completely severed.
如果完全断绝的话。
Because even if you'll have regeneration at the basal cell level at the epithelium, they won't manage to find their way back to the bulb.
因为即使上皮细胞的基底细胞水平得到再生，它们也无法找到回到球茎的路。
If you have partial or something left, or something shows up in a short while after the injury, then you have a good chance of recovery.
如果您有部分或遗留的东西，或者受伤后不久出现的东西，那么您康复的机会很大。
Ah, because they grow along the trajectory of the other axons- Yeah ...
啊，因为它们沿着其他轴突的轨迹生长——是的......
sort of pioneering the way for them.
有点为他们开辟了道路。
Assumingly, yeah.
假设是的。
Interesting.
有趣的。
And basically, the timeframe, and it's funny, I get a lot of emails on this, although I'm not a medical doctor, but I get a lot of emails from people who have lost their sense of smell because it's very distressing.
基本上，时间范围，有趣的是，我收到了很多关于这个问题的电子邮件，虽然我不是医生，但我收到了很多来自失去嗅觉的人的电子邮件，因为这非常令人痛苦。
And now more people know this because of COVID, that it's very distressing.
现在，由于新冠疫情，更多人知道了这一点，这非常令人痛苦。
And basically, the rule of thumb is that if you don't get it back within a year to a year and a half, you'll never get it back.
基本上，经验法则是，如果你在一年到一年半内没有收回它，你将永远无法收回它。
My understanding of the statistics on olfactory loss and COVID and other viral type infections is that, first of all, I experienced that when I got COVID.
我对嗅觉丧失、新冠病毒和其他病毒型感染的统计数据的理解是，首先，我在感染新冠病毒时经历过这一点。
Including total anosmia?
包括完全嗅觉丧失？
For one day, and not total.
一天，而不是全部。
There was a remnant of an ability to smell or perceive the smell of a lemon, and I was huffing as hard as I possibly could.
我还残留着嗅觉或感知柠檬气味的能力，我拼命地喘气。
Oh.
哦。
There's an over-the-counter remedy, and this is not pseudoscience because there's a number of papers published about this on PubMed, that alpha-lipoic acid can accelerate the recovery of smell.
有一种非处方药，这不是伪科学，因为 PubMed 上发表了很多关于这方面的论文，α-硫辛酸可以加速嗅觉的恢复。
Yeah.
是的。
And so that's something that worked successfully for me.
这对我来说是成功的。
I'm not saying that that's the only route.
我并不是说这是唯一的途径。
You don't know if it worked successfully for you or if you would've recovered anyway.
你不知道它是否对你有效，或者你是否会康复。
You didn't do a controlled study .
你没有做对照研究。
True, but I was not willing to do the control experiment.
确实如此，但我不愿意做对照实验。
Exactly.
确切地。
So yeah.
所以是的。
Let me say two things on this front.
在这方面我要说两件事。
First, the data on the alpha-lipoic acid is eh.
首先，α-硫辛酸的数据是呃。
Yeah.
是的。
It's not overwhelming.
这并不是压倒性的。
Yeah.
是的。
But losing your sense of smell is overwhelming.
但失去嗅觉是令人难以承受的。
Yeah.
是的。
No, no, I know.
不，不，我知道。
And so I think people feel desperate, and they- And I'll say one word about smelling the lemon.
所以我认为人们感到绝望，他们——我会说一下关于闻柠檬的味道。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
I'll take that opportunity to share more information.
我将借此机会分享更多信息。
When we smell things, it's the result of more sensory subsystems than the olfactory system alone.
当我们闻到东西的味道时，这是更多感觉子系统的结果，而不仅仅是嗅觉系统的结果。
So you have several chemosensory sensitive nerves in your nose.
所以你的鼻子里有几个化学感应敏感神经。
A primary one beyond the olfactory nerve is the trigeminal nerve, the fifth cranial nerve.
嗅神经之外的主要神经是三叉神经，第五脑神经。
So the trigeminal nerve has sensory endings in your nose, in your throat, and in your eye.
所以三叉神经在你的鼻子、喉咙和眼睛里都有感觉末梢。
It has three branches.
它有三个分支。
That's why an onion has a smell and burns your eyes and burns in your throat.
这就是为什么洋葱有臭味，会灼伤你的眼睛，灼伤你的喉咙。
Is that why?
是因为这个吗？
It's trigeminal, yeah.
是三叉神经吧
The tearing of cutting an onion is due to the trigeminal.
切洋葱的撕裂是由于三叉神经引起的。
It's a trigeminal reflex.
这是三叉神经反射。
Amazing.
惊人的。
We talked about trigeminal in the context of headache during a headache episode.
我们在头痛发作期间讨论了三叉神经痛。
It's a trigeminal reflex.
这是三叉神经反射。
So the lemon you were smelling may have been a trigeminal sensation.
所以你闻到的柠檬味可能是三叉神经的感觉。
So smelling the lemon with my eyes is what you're saying.
所以你说的是用我的眼睛闻柠檬的味道。
Well, no, with your nose.
嗯，不，用你的鼻子。
With my nose.
用我的鼻子。
But with your trigeminal receptors and not your olfactory receptors.
但是是你的三叉神经受体而不是嗅觉受体。
So within olfaction researcher jargon, there's what we refer to as pure olfactants.
因此，在嗅觉研究人员的行话中，我们称之为纯嗅觉剂。
These are odors that will stimulate your olfactory nerve alone.
这些气味只会刺激你的嗅觉神经。
They won't influence your trigeminal nerve at all.
它们根本不会影响你的三叉神经。
And an example, just to get a sense of what that might be, would be the coffee right here- Mm-hmm ...
举个例子，只是为了了解一下这可能是什么，那就是这里的咖啡——嗯……嗯……
is a pure olfactant.
是一种纯嗅觉剂。
Vanilla is a known pure olfactant.
香草是一种已知的纯嗅觉剂。
These things have no trigeminal activation.
这些东西没有三叉神经激活。
Right.
正确的。
As long as we're on this topic, and we'll weave back and forth, but I'm glad we are on this topic because a tremendous number of people wrote to me during the pandemic, and continue to, about olfactory loss.
只要我们讨论这个话题，我们就会来来回回，但我很高兴我们讨论这个话题，因为在大流行期间，并且继续有很多人写信给我，谈论嗅觉丧失。
I've heard of this olfactory training whereby if you have a partial or even a complete loss of primary olfaction- Right ...
我听说过这种嗅觉训练，如果你部分甚至完全丧失初级嗅觉——对……
that one is encouraged to smell a number of different smells.
鼓励人们闻多种不同的气味。
I grew up studying activity-dependent wiring of the nervous system.
我从小就研究神经系统活动依赖性线路。
It makes total sense to me why keeping neurons active keeps them alive.
对我来说，为什么保持神经元活跃就能让它们活下去，这是完全有道理的。
So this is not fire together, wire together type thing.
所以这不是一起火，一起线类型的事情。
By the way, that's a quote from Carla Shatz, not Donald Hebb, folks, or me.
顺便说一句，这是卡拉·沙茨（Carla Shatz）的引言，而不是唐纳德·赫布（Donald Hebb）、各位或我。
But this is about keeping neurons electrically active, in this case, olfactory neurons, in order to maintain their connections, because otherwise they will die.
但这是为了保持神经元（在本例中是嗅觉神经元）的电活动，以维持它们的连接，否则它们就会死亡。
Olfaction is a definite use it or lose it system.
嗅觉是一个明确的使用它或失去它的系统。
And so that makes total sense.
所以这是完全有道理的。
And indeed, there's very strong evidence for success of the training programs, more than the alpha-lipoic acid.
事实上，有非常有力的证据表明训练计划取得了成功，而不仅仅是α-硫辛酸。
Great to know.
很高兴知道。
And so that's a real thing.
所以这是真实的事情。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
And what's cool about that is that you don't need to go out and buy expensive things, although you can.
最酷的一点是你不需要出去买昂贵的东西，尽管你可以。
Of course, there are people who are capitalizing on this commercially already.
当然，已经有人在商业上利用这一点。
But you can just take things from your refrigerator or your makeup cabinet or whatever and smell them attentionally and constantly and sniff them, and that exposure will help you recover.
但你可以从冰箱或化妆柜或其他什么地方取出东西，并不断地仔细闻它们，然后闻一闻，这种暴露会帮助你康复。
There is good data on that by now.
现在已经有很好的数据了。
You made that point in passing about regeneration in the olfactory system.
您在谈到嗅觉系统的再生时提出了这一点。
Indeed, one of the cool things...
确实，最酷的事情之一......
So in olfaction, you can study many things through olfaction, and indeed, one of them is neural regeneration, because the olfactory neurons are really the only neurons that do that systematically in the adult mammalian brain.
所以在嗅觉方面，你可以通过嗅觉来研究很多东西，事实上，其中之一就是神经再生，因为嗅觉神经元实际上是成年哺乳动物大脑中唯一能系统地做到这一点的神经元。
And whether the human olfactory system shows the same level of regeneration as it does in other mammals is and was somewhat questionable, and I'm just bringing that up to share a really cool study that was published in "Neuron," I think somewhere around 2014
人类嗅觉系统是否表现出与其他哺乳动物相同的再生水平现在和过去都有些疑问，我只是提出这个问题来分享发表在“神经元”上的一项非常酷的研究，我认为大约在 2014 年左右
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Where to address this question, I just really like the idea of doing that.
在哪里解决这个问题，我真的很喜欢这样做的想法。
What the authors did was in postmortem, they looked at levels of C14 in adults who were exposed to atomic bomb experiments.
作者所做的是在尸检中，他们观察了经历过原子弹实验的成年人的 C14 水平。
So you can actually look at these neurons and time them based on exposure to radiation.
因此，您实际上可以观察这些神经元，并根据辐射暴露情况对它们进行计时。
And that paper suggested that there's not as much turnover in the human olfactory bulb as there is in other mammals.
该论文表明，人类嗅球的周转率不如其他哺乳动物。
Other lines of data suggest otherwise.
其他数据线表明情况并非如此。
So this is kind of a debated question as to what extent of neurodegeneration you have in the human olfactory system as opposed to other mammals.
因此，与其他哺乳动物相比，人类嗅觉系统的神经变性程度如何，这是一个有争议的问题。
But that was just a really cool paper, I think, of doing that.
但我认为，这是一篇非常酷的论文。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Fascinating.
令人着迷。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Should I finish the path just so we have the-
我是否应该完成这条路，这样我们就可以-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Please.
请。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
So we said information then synapses at the olfactory bulb from the olfactory epithelium.
所以我们说信息然后从嗅觉上皮到嗅球的突触。
And the pattern of that synapsing follows what's referred to as the most extreme case of convergence in the mammalian nervous system.
这种突触的模式遵循哺乳动物神经系统中所谓的最极端的收敛情况。
More specifically, what happens is that all the receptors of a given subtype, and remember, in humans, we said we have about 350, in the mouse, we have about 1,200 probably.
更具体地说，所发生的情况是给定亚型的所有受体，记住，在人类中，我们说我们有大约 350 个，在小鼠中，我们可能有大约 1,200 个。
So all the receptors of one subtype converge to one location in the bulb, and this location is referred to as a glomerulus or in plural, glomeruli.
因此，一种亚型的所有受体都会聚集到球中的一个位置，该位置被称为肾小球或复数肾小球。
And that may be a slight oversimplification.
这可能有点过于简单化了。
It's in fact two glomeruli.
它实际上是两个肾小球。
There is a sort of a mirror cut line, and so all the receptors of one subtype will converge to two mirror glomeruli on the olfactory bulb.
有一种镜像切割线，因此一种亚型的所有受体都会汇聚到嗅球上的两个镜像肾小球。
So you end up having two glomeruli that reflect that one receptor subtype.
所以你最终会得到两个反映该一种受体亚型的肾小球。
And so if, and this is as far as the...
所以如果，这就是……
I'm giving you now the textbook view of how the system works, but then I'll happily share with you things that pose a problem for the textbook view of how things work.
我现在向您提供系统如何工作的教科书视图，但随后我会很乐意与您分享对系统如何工作的教科书视图造成问题的事情。
But the textbook view of how things work is that every such receptor subtype is responsive to a small subset of different molecular shapes, what's sometimes referred to as odotopes, the molecular aspects of the odorant.
但教科书上关于事物如何运作的观点是，每一种受体亚型都对不同分子形状的一小部分做出反应，这些分子形状有时被称为同位素，即气味剂的分子方面。
So each receptor is responsive to a different subset of odotopes, let's say 10, and each odotope will activate a different subset of receptors.
因此，每个受体都会对不同的同位素子集做出反应，假设有 10 个同位素，并且每个同位素都会激活不同的受体子集。
So potentially, you have this insane combinatorics of this potentially 350-dimensional space in the human, potentially.
因此，人类可能拥有 350 维空间的疯狂组合。
But then because of this convergence, you end up having on the bulb, in a way, a map reflecting receptor identity.
但由于这种融合，在某种程度上，你最终在灯泡上得到了一张反映受体身份的地图。
So let's say this coffee activates receptors of type one, three, and seven, so the glomeruli of receptors one, three, and seven will "light up," quote-unquote, when I smell the coffee.
假设这种咖啡激活一型、三型和七型受体，那么当我闻到咖啡的味道时，一型、三型和七型受体的肾小球就会“亮起来”。
And if you can take a snapshot of that, theoretically, you would have the map of coffee, and so on and so forth.
如果你能拍一张快照，理论上，你就会得到咖啡地图等等。
This is sort of the textbook view of how the system works.
这有点像教科书上关于系统如何运作的观点。
And then information goes from the bulb to several targets in the brain, what is referred to as primary olfactory cortex, is piriform cortex and entorhinal cortex.
然后信息从灯泡传到大脑中的几个目标，即所谓的初级嗅觉皮层，即梨状皮层和内嗅皮层。
This is on the ventral surface of the brain, the lower portion of our temporal lobe.
它位于大脑的腹侧表面，即颞叶的下部。
And information goes there directly, but it also goes directly to the amygdala.
信息直接到达那里，但它也直接到达杏仁核。
It probably goes directly to the hypothalamus.
它可能直接进入下丘脑。
It may go directly to the cerebellum.
它可能直接进入小脑。
It goes all over the brain.
它遍布整个大脑。
So information projects widely from there, and as far as people understand, the map that may exist on the bulb doesn't exist in the rest of the brain, and the understanding of how coding occurs in the rest of the brain is murky.
因此，信息从那里广泛投射，据人们所知，灯泡上可能存在的地图并不存在于大脑的其他部分，并且对大脑其他部分如何进行编码的理解也是模糊的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Commonly, one hears that the memories that we have of odors are somehow more robust than the memories of other perceptual events in our life.
通常，人们听说我们对气味的记忆在某种程度上比对生活中其他感知事件的记忆更牢固。
I don't know if this is true or not, but people will say, for instance, "I can still remember the smell of my grandmother's hands," or "The smell of cookies in her kitchen." At a minimum, it points to the fact that smell and memory are closely linked, and you just mentioned a direct multi-station, but nonetheless, somewhat direct path from the nostrils to the hippocampus, one of the primary encoding centers of memories in the brain.
我不知道这是否属实，但人们会说，例如，“我仍然记得我祖母的手的味道”，或者“她厨房里饼干的味道”。至少，它指出了这样一个事实：气味和记忆密切相关，你刚才提到了一个直接的多站，但仍然是从鼻孔到海马体的直接路径，海马体是大脑中记忆的主要编码中心之一。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Two synapses away.
距离两个突触。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Which is a remarkably short pathway considering that, for instance, just by example, because some of our listeners won't be familiar with this, but some will, that sound waves that are transduced into neural signals at the level of the inner ear go through many stations before they arrive at the location in the brain where we make sense of those sound waves as voices or music, et cetera.
这是一个非常短的路径，例如，因为我们的一些听众不会熟悉这一点，但有些人会熟悉，在内耳水平上转换成神经信号的声波在到达大脑中我们将这些声波理解为声音或音乐等的位置之前会经过许多站。
Whereas olfaction is more of a direct route to the memory centers.
而嗅觉更是通往记忆中心的直接途径。
Is there any just-so story or real objective truth to the idea that olfactory memories are formed more easily or maintained longer or more robustly than other sorts of memories?
嗅觉记忆比其他类型的记忆更容易形成、维持时间更长、更牢固，这一观点是否有任何真实的故事或真实的客观事实？
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
So, yes.
所以，是的。
But first, I should say that I'm not an authority on olfactory memory.
但首先，我应该说我不是嗅觉记忆方面的权威。
Olfactory memory is a huge field of research, and somehow our lab has never really gone much into that.
嗅觉记忆是一个巨大的研究领域，但不知何故，我们的实验室从未真正深入研究过这个领域。
Although, again, the same student I happened to talk about before, Yariv Sharon, who's, again, now a faculty at Tel Aviv, ran a study, a paper we, I think, we published in "Current Biology" called "The Privileged Representation of Early Olfactory Associations." Basically, there's something about the first time you experience a smell that generates a particularly robust representation more than other sensory stimuli, and that's what she, in fact, compared.
不过，我之前碰巧谈到的那个学生亚里夫·沙龙（Yariv Sharon）现在也是特拉维夫的一名教师，他进行了一项研究，我认为我们在《当代生物学》上发表了一篇论文，名为“早期嗅觉关联的特权表征”。基本上，当你第一次体验到某种气味时，会产生一种比其他感官刺激更强烈的表征，而这正是她所比较的。
So there's something about the first exposure to a smell In terms of the brain encoding that etches it into our being.
因此，关于第一次接触某种气味，大脑编码将其铭刻在我们的存在中。
And this is an effect that has echoes, of course, in literature.
当然，这种效果在文学中也有共鸣。
I mean, the biggest cliche in this is to bring up the Proust effect, right?
我的意思是，最大的陈词滥调就是提出普鲁斯特效应，对吧？
So, the Proust effect is when he ate the madeleine, and the taste and smell immediately reminded him of an event in his childhood where the same madeleine appeared.
所以，普鲁斯特效应就是当他吃了玛德琳蛋糕时，味道和气味立即让他想起了童年时出现过的同样玛德琳蛋糕的事件。
So that's something very real.
所以这是非常真实的事情。
There's a lot of research on it not coming from our work.
有很多关于它的研究不是来自我们的工作。
So I'm not an authority.
所以我不是权威。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But it does sound like there's something special about olfaction, and that doesn't mean that there isn't something special about vision or audition.
但听起来嗅觉确实有一些特别之处，但这并不意味着视觉或听觉没有什么特别之处。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
No.
不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Each one has its own unique tone.
每个人都有自己独特的语气。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
I'm the last to argue that there's something special about olfaction.
我是最后一个认为嗅觉有特殊之处的人。
My students make fun of me because they say, and there's some truth to that, that I try to explain everything through the olfactory system.
我的学生取笑我，因为他们说我试图通过嗅觉系统来解释一切，这也有一定道理。
I mean, for me, everything is olfactory.
我的意思是，对我来说，一切都是嗅觉。
So, yes.
所以，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Through the lens of the nose.
透过鼻子的晶状体。
Speaker 3:
演讲者3：
There is so much NFL on ESPN right now.
ESPN 上现在有很多 NFL 节目。
Monday Night Football, plus pre-game and post-game.
周一橄榄球之夜，以及赛前和赛后。
NFL Live, NFL Prime Time.
NFL 直播，NFL 黄金时间。
Everything you need to stay on top of every game, every week.
每周掌握每场比赛所需的一切。
Unbelievable.
难以置信。
And now NFL Network is on the ESPN app.
现在 NFL Network 已登陆 ESPN 应用程序。
More football, more coverage, more ways to watch.
更多足球比赛、更多报道、更多观看方式。
Football's on all season long on ESPN and streaming on the ESPN app.
ESPN 提供整个赛季的足球赛事直播，并通过 ESPN 应用程序进行直播。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
When I was at Berkeley, I was walking across campus one day, and I saw, I think students, but I saw people on their hands and knees with goggles on, gloves on-
当我在伯克利的时候，有一天我走过校园，我看到了，我想是学生，但我看到人们手脚并用地跪着，戴着护目镜，戴着手套——
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and I think their mouths were covered, too?
我想他们的嘴也被捂住了？
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Everything was covered.
一切都被覆盖了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Was covered, and they were crawling along the ground, and I thought this was peculiar, but then again, it's UC Berkeley, and the joke is to get noticed on the UC Berkeley campus, you have to be naked and on fire, right?
被覆盖了，他们在地上爬行，我觉得这很奇怪，但话又说回来，这是加州大学伯克利分校，笑话是在加州大学伯克利分校校园里要引起注意，你必须赤身裸体并着火，对吧？
One or the other would not be sufficient.
其中之一是不够的。
Please don't run this experiment, everybody.
请大家不要进行这个实验。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's that kind of place.
就是这样一个地方。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But nonetheless, a paper came out a few years later describing the results of what turned out to be your experiment that your laboratory was running, which was having people follow an odor trail with their nose.
但尽管如此，几年后发表了一篇论文，描述了你的实验室正在进行的实验的结果，该实验让人们用鼻子追踪气味轨迹。
And my understanding is that people can improve their ability to track scents quite robustly, especially if we deprive them of vision and somatosensation, that is touch and some other sensations.
我的理解是，人们可以相当强大地提高追踪气味的能力，特别是如果我们剥夺他们的视觉和躯体感觉，即触觉和其他一些感觉。
Maybe you could just tell us a little bit about that study and-
也许你可以告诉我们一些关于这项研究的信息，然后——
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Sure
当然可以
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I think in our audience, I'm suspecting that many people have a keen, keen sense of smell.
我想在我们的观众中，我怀疑很多人都有敏锐的嗅觉。
I have a family member who just can detect any negative putrid odor in the environment, but also good odors exquisitely well, and I have other family members whose sense of smell is quite poor.
我有一个家庭成员只能闻出环境中任何负面的腐臭气味，但也能很好地闻到好气味，而我还有其他家庭成员的嗅觉很差。
I'd love for all of those people to learn a bit about what is possible in terms of training up or-
我希望所有这些人都能了解一些关于培训方面的可能性，或者-
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
improving our ability to smell, and perhaps in the context of that study, if you will.
提高我们的嗅觉能力，也许在这项研究的背景下，如果你愿意的话。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So first, before even talking about improving, just off the bat, humans have a remarkable sense of smell.
因此，首先，在谈论改进之前，人类立刻就拥有了非凡的嗅觉。
And this is something, again, in our lab, we already said, "Yeah, we know this.
在我们的实验室里，我们已经说过，“是的，我们知道这一点。
This is old news." But to people who come from different worlds, we have to reiterate this.
这是旧闻了。”但对于来自不同世界的人们，我们必须重申这一点。
Sometimes when I give public lectures to non-olfaction audiences, I reiterate this.
有时，当我向非嗅觉听众公开演讲时，我会重申这一点。
Humans have an utterly remarkable sense of smell.
人类有一种非常非凡的嗅觉。
To put that a bit into things that are tangible.
将其融入到有形的事物中。
So, for example, mercaptans, which are added to cooking gas so that we smell it, because otherwise it wouldn't have a smell.
例如，硫醇被添加到烹饪气体中，以便我们闻到它的气味，否则它就不会有气味。
So that the smell of gas is not the smell of gas, of propane.
所以煤气的气味不是煤气、丙烷的气味。
It's an additive.
它是一种添加剂。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mercaptan?
硫醇？
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
It's mercaptan.
是硫醇。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The sulfur-like smell?
硫磺味？
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So our detection threshold, that is the level at which we can detect it, is 0.2 parts per billion.
所以我们的检测阈值，即我们可以检测到它的水平，是十亿分之 0.2。
Okay?
好的？
There's no machine that can really do that that effectively.
没有机器可以真正有效地做到这一点。
No gas chromatograph, nothing.
没有气相色谱仪，什么都没有。
Now, to give you another sense of making this, again, really tangible, we're working with an odorant in our lab called estra tetraenol that our participants can detect when we have it mixed at 10 to the negative 12 molar in the liquid phase.
现在，为了让您再次真正感受到这一点，我们正在实验室中使用一种名为 estra 四烯醇的气味剂，当我们将其在液相中以 10 至负 12 摩尔混合时，我们的参与者可以检测到。
To give you a real sense of that, we did the math.
为了让您真正了解这一点，我们做了数学计算。
If you would take two Olympic-size swimming pools and you would pipette one ml, one drop, into one pool versus the other, you could smell the difference between the pools.
如果你拿两个奥林匹克规模的游泳池，然后用移液器将一毫升一滴移液到一个游泳池和另一个游泳池中，你就能闻到两个游泳池之间的区别。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Incredible.
难以置信。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
That's the detection threshold that you have with your nose.
这就是你的鼻子的检测阈值。
People have an utterly amazing nose, okay?
人们有一个非常神奇的鼻子，好吗？
So that's just in terms of its detection abilities, which are just remarkable, really up there in the mammalian world.
所以这只是就其检测能力而言，它的检测能力非常出色，在哺乳动物世界中确实处于领先地位。
We're not a bad mammal at olfaction.
我们的嗅觉并不是很差的哺乳动物。
And beyond that, we can improve, okay?
除此之外，我们还可以改进，好吗？
And the example you're talking about actually started off as a lab bet.
你所谈论的例子实际上是从一个实验室赌注开始的。
Okay?
好的？
We were having a lab picnic, so I guess I should here fill in because I'm your guest from the Weizmann Institute of Science in Israel.
我们正在实验室野餐，所以我想我应该在这里填写，因为我是来自以色列魏茨曼科学研究所的客人。
But before going back to my home in Israel, I was a faculty at UC Berkeley in the Helen Wills Neuroscience Institute, and this study was done during that time.
但在回到以色列的家之前，我是加州大学伯克利分校海伦威尔斯神经科学研究所的一名教员，这项研究就是在那段时间完成的。
And we were on a lab picnic, and we were having, indeed, one of these lab discussions, arguments on what humans can and can't do with their sense of smell.
我们当时正在实验室野餐，我们确实正在进行这样的实验室讨论，争论人类可以用嗅觉做什么，不能做什么。
And I said that humans could truly even track odor like a dog, and people there said, "No way." And we ran this quick experiment, which I have video of, but I don't think we'll show it here.
我说人类真的可以像狗一样追踪气味，那里的人说：“不可能。”我们进行了这个快速实验，我有视频，但我认为我们不会在这里展示它。
But I actually have original, the picnic video, we have it And a graduate student by the name of Christina Zelano, a brilliant graduate student at that time, she's now a professor at Northwestern.
但我实际上有原创的野餐视频，我们有一个研究生，名叫克里斯蒂娜·泽拉诺，当时是一名出色的研究生，她现在是西北大学的教授。
And she's really leading the field of olfaction imaging today.
如今，她在嗅觉成像领域确实处于领先地位。
But she was the volunteer, and we dragged a chocolate bar across the grass and blindfolded her, and checked if she could track the track we made with the chocolate, which she did very effectively.
但她是志愿者，我们拖着一块巧克力穿过草地，蒙住她的眼睛，检查她是否能追踪我们用巧克力留下的轨迹，她做得非常有效。
Right?
正确的？
And as far as-
就——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Did you place her at the starting point of the line, or?
你是不是把她放在了线的起点？
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
I think we did.
我想我们做到了。
I don't exactly remember what we did on that sort of picnic tryout.
我不太记得我们在那种野餐选拔赛中做了什么。
But I assume she never practiced that in her life before, right?
但我想她以前从来没有练习过这个，对吧？
And yet, she did it really, really well.
然而，她确实做得非常非常好。
And then this went on as a lab bet in a way that I said to my students, "Okay, we have to make this into an experiment, put it in an experimental setting, and quantify what's going on." And they all said that it would be uninteresting.
然后这作为一个实验室赌注继续进行，我对我的学生说，“好吧，我们必须把它变成一个实验，把它放在实验环境中，并量化正在发生的事情。”他们都说这很无趣。
That was the bet.
这就是赌注。
And I told them it would be in Nature, which is a bet I won in this case.
我告诉他们这将是在自然中，这是我在这种情况下赢的赌注。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Nature, of course, being one of the three apex journals in science.
当然，《自然》是科学界三大顶级期刊之一。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
It was Nature Neuroscience, to be fair.
公平地说，这是《自然神经科学》。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
So then we turned it into an experiment, and what the experiment was, is that we brought in participants, naive participants, not graduate students from our lab, completely deprived them of any other sensory input.
然后我们把它变成了一个实验，这个实验就是我们引入了参与者，天真的参与者，而不是我们实验室的研究生，完全剥夺了他们任何其他感官输入。
So we blocked their eyes, we blocked their ears, we blocked everything.
所以我们堵住了他们的眼睛，堵住了他们的耳朵，堵住了一切。
They were wearing heavy gloves.
他们戴着厚厚的手套。
They couldn't sense anything.
他们感觉不到任何东西。
And we generated a consistent odor path in the grass, which is what you saw.
我们在草地上生成了一致的气味路径，这就是您所看到的。
We did that by burying twine under the grass, an odor-impregnated twine, so that way we could generate a consistent odor trail every time.
我们通过将麻线埋在草下来做到这一点，这是一种充满气味的麻线，这样我们每次都能产生一致的气味痕迹。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Was it at the base of the grass or in the dirt itself?
它是在草根处还是在泥土本身？
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
It was buried under the grass.
它被埋在草丛下面了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Really?
真的吗？
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wow.
哇。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
And-
还有——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I did not know that
我不知道
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
...
...
it was buried under the grass, and we conducted aerial photography, and participants also had this sensor pack that they were wearing, where we measured nasal airflow in each nostril in real-time.
它被埋在草下，我们进行了航拍，参与者还佩戴了这个传感器包，我们在其中实时测量每个鼻孔的鼻腔气流。
And, we also used something called RTKGPS, which is a way to lay a radio frequency grid over the GPS grid so that you have millimeter resolution in space, basically.
而且，我们还使用了一种称为 RTKGPS 的技术，这是一种在 GPS 网格上铺设射频网格的方法，这样基本上就可以在空间中获得毫米级分辨率。
It's used by surveyors mostly, so that we could track behavior.
它主要由调查员使用，以便我们可以跟踪行为。
And we found a few things doing this.
我们发现有一些东西可以做到这一点。
One is that people could just do this right off the bat.
一是人们可以立即做到这一点。
The second thing we found that is when we trained them up, then within average of four days, the rate-limiting factor became the speed at which they could crawl.
我们发现的第二件事是，当我们训练它们时，平均四天之内，限制速度的因素就变成了它们爬行的速度。
So as fast as you could crawl, you could scent track.
因此，只要你能爬得尽可能快，你就能闻到踪迹。
Of course, you can't crawl as fast as a dog can run, but as fast as you can crawl, you can scent track.
当然，你爬行的速度不可能像狗跑的那么快，但是你爬行的速度和你爬行的速度一样快，你就能闻到踪迹。
And then to sort of add what made it really interesting from a systems neuroscience perspective is that we asked whether having two nostrils contributes to this.
然后，从系统神经科学的角度来看，真正有趣的是，我们询问拥有两个鼻孔是否会导致这一点。
So we built, we constructed a nasal prosthesis, if you will, that had two versions.
所以我们建造了一个鼻假体，如果你愿意的话，它有两个版本。
One is that it combined both nostrils into one big nostril, centered, and the other is that it maintained two separated nostrils.
一是它把两个鼻孔合并成一个大鼻孔，居中，二是它保留了两个分开的鼻孔。
And we compared performance under these two conditions, and people performed better with two nostrils over one centralized nostril, although the flow remained the same.
我们比较了这两种条件下的表现，发现有两个鼻孔的人比一个集中鼻孔的人表现更好，尽管流量保持不变。
So you're taking advantage of the information that comes from your two separate, totally separate nostrils.
因此，您正在利用来自两个独立、完全独立的鼻孔的信息。
By the way, the system I described before of your epithelium and bulb and connection to cortex, you have two of those, right?
顺便说一句，我之前描述的关于上皮和球以及与皮质的连接的系统，你有两个，对吧？
It's a completely unilateral, well, almost completely unilateral system.
这是一个完全单边的、几乎完全单边的系统。
There are some very small exceptions to that, but-
有一些非常小的例外，但是-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So a representation on both sides of the brain.
这是大脑两侧的表征。
Much in the same way we have two eyes, we're not a Cyclops.
就像我们有两只眼睛一样，我们不是独眼巨人。
We can gain depth perception information, we can perceive motion better as a consequence, and a number of adapt, especially stereopsis.
我们可以获得深度感知信息，因此我们可以更好地感知运动，以及一些适应，尤其是立体视觉。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
And we can locate sound because of the difference between our ears and how the head blocks them between and-
我们可以通过耳朵之间的差异以及头部如何阻挡它们来定位声音，并且-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Amazing.
太棒了。
Another question about the mechanics and strategies that you observed, because I think there's information about the system, the brain, as a consequence.
另一个关于你观察到的机制和策略的问题，因为我认为因此有关于系统、大脑的信息。
Were you in a position to measure sniffing frequency?
您能够测量嗅探频率吗？
And the specific question I have is, were people doing something along the lines of a quick sniffing, or a like a long-
我的具体问题是，人们是否会做一些类似快速嗅探的事情，或者类似长时间嗅探的事情？
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
drawl inhale?
拖长吸气？
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
So, yes, we were measuring sniffing and recording it, and we have all the data.
所以，是的，我们正在测量嗅探并记录它，并且我们拥有所有数据。
There was nothing very remarkable in that data, in that study, although it may reflect that we didn't analyze it carefully enough as well.
该研究中的数据并没有什么特别值得注意的地方，尽管这可能反映出我们也没有足够仔细地分析它。
It wasn't a major component of our analysis, although we did look at it, to some extent.
尽管我们确实在某种程度上研究了它，但它并不是我们分析的主要组成部分。
Again, you're asking me about a paper from quite a few years ago, so I may be forgetting parts of it as well.
再说一次，你问我一篇几年前的论文，所以我可能也忘记了其中的一部分。
But-
但是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm sure if it was a major component of it, it would've risen to the top.
我确信如果它是其中的一个主要组成部分，它会上升到顶部。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
It definitely wasn't a major finding-
这绝对不是一个重大发现——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
...
...
the sniffing behavior in the paper.
论文中的嗅探行为。
Although again, sniffing behavior is a huge portion of our life in lab.
尽管如此，嗅探行为仍然是我们实验室生活的很大一部分。
And it's taking us to places, and it's re-emerging now in our work.
它把我们带到了不同的地方，现在又重新出现在我们的工作中。
We're doing tons of sniffing work.
我们正在进行大量的嗅探工作。
I can share with you something that I think will interest your listeners and viewers as well, and we think is really one of the most overlooked things in neuroscience.
我可以与您分享一些我认为也会引起听众和观众感兴趣的事情，我们认为这确实是神经科学中最容易被忽视的事情之一。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Please do.
请这样做。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
I'll invite you to do the following experiment.
我将邀请你做下面的实验。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
So occlude one nostril by pressing on it from the side and sniff in.
因此，从侧面按压一个鼻孔并堵住它，然后吸气。
And then occlude the other and sniff in.
然后遮挡另一个并嗅进去。
Do you sense a difference in flow?
您感觉到流量有差异吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yes.
是的。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Okay.
好的。
Do you know why that is?
你知道这是为什么吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, and it was the next question-
不，这是下一个问题——
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Okay
好的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
on my list, so-
在我的名单上，所以-
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Then don't feel badly about not knowing why that is.
然后，不要因为不知道原因而感到难过。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Most people don't.
大多数人都没有。
But that is a reflection of something referred to as the nasal cycle.
但这是所谓鼻周期的反映。
So in fact, if you were to do that repeatedly, you would find that your high-flow nostril and low-flow nostril alternate every two and a half hours on average.
所以事实上，如果你重复这样做，你会发现你的高流量鼻孔和低流量鼻孔平均每两个半小时交替一次。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In an absolute way, or is it like a sine wave, like gradual shift to the one and then gradual shift back?
是一种绝对的方式，还是像正弦波一样，逐渐转向 1，然后又逐渐转向 1？
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
It can vary.
它可能会有所不同。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
It can vary, and we don't yet know all the rules.
它可能会有所不同，而且我们还不知道所有规则。
But you have this constant shift from side to side.
但你会不断地从一边转移到另一边。
The shift becomes incredibly pronounced in sleep, so we can measure the power of the difference.
这种转变在睡眠中变得异常明显，因此我们可以测量差异的强度。
And in sleep, you have this phase shift of power.
在睡眠中，你会经历这种能量的相移。
You have a huge...
你有一个巨大的...
One closes and one opens totally.
一种关闭，另一种完全打开。
And it turns out that this is linked to a balance in the autonomic nervous system.
事实证明，这与自主神经系统的平衡有关。
So as you and your listeners know, we have an autonomic nervous system that has a sympathetic and parasympathetic component to it, and they're in balance or imbalance in many diseases, for example.
正如您和您的听众所知，我们有一个自主神经系统，其中有交感神经和副交感神经成分，例如，它们在许多疾病中处于平衡或不平衡状态。
And this interplay between the sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous system drives the switch from left to right nostril.
交感神经系统和副交感神经系统之间的相互作用驱动了从左鼻孔到右鼻孔的转换。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Just to remind people, sympathetic nervous system has nothing to do with sympathy- ...
只是提醒人们，交感神经系统与同情心无关-......
has everything to do with generating patterns of alertness.
与产生警觉模式密切相关。
It's sometimes called the fight or flight system, but any pattern of arousal, positive or negative, and then it's balanced in a coordinated way or at least in parallel with the parasympathetic nervous system, which is sometimes called the rest and digest system, but is associated with all sorts of things, the sexual arousal response, and a number of other aspects of our physiology.
它有时被称为战斗或逃跑系统，但任何唤醒模式，无论是积极的还是消极的，然后它以协调的方式达到平衡，或者至少与副交感神经系统平行，副交感神经系统有时被称为休息和消化系统，但与各种各样的事物、性唤起反应以及我们生理学的许多其他方面相关。
So think of it like a seesaw of alertness and calm.
因此，可以把它想象成一个警觉和冷静的跷跷板。
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Perfect.
完美。
So now imagine you would walk around living your life, right?
现在想象一下你会四处走动过你的生活，对吗？
Half of the time with one eye closed like this and the other half with one eye closed like this, and you had this eye cycle, right?
一半的时间像这样闭上一只眼睛，另一半的时间像这样闭上一只眼睛，你就有了这样的眼睛周期，对吗？
And that was linked to autonomic arousal.
这与自主神经的唤醒有关。
I assure you, you would go to PubMed, there would be 5 million papers on the eye cycle, right?
我向你保证，你会去 PubMed，那里会有 500 万篇关于眼睛周期的论文，对吗？
And the eye cycle in every disease you can name and what it denotes and what it tells us and what we can do with it.
以及您能说出的每种疾病的眼睛周期以及它的含义、它告诉我们什么以及我们可以用它做什么。
You have exactly this marker.
你正好有这个标记。
You're walking around with a marker on balance in your autonomic nervous system, and we do nothing with it.
当你在你的自主神经系统中带着平衡的标记四处走动时，我们对它不做任何事情。
So we're in fact now doing a lot with it.
所以我们实际上现在正在用它做很多事情。
Okay, so we built a wearable device that is pasted to your body and measures airflow in each nostril separately and logs it for 24 hours.
好的，我们制作了一款可穿戴设备，贴在您的身上，分别测量每个鼻孔的气流并记录 24 小时。
And we're collecting these 24-hour recordings.
我们正在收集这些 24 小时的录音。
We're calling it the nasal halter.
我们称之为鼻笼头。
So we measure with the nasal halter, and we're finding it is a disease marker.
所以我们用鼻笼头进行测量，发现它是一种疾病标记。
I can give you a nasal halter measurement as an adult, and I can say, this is work by Tim Nasserroka, a graduate student in our lab now.
我可以给你做一个成年人的鼻托测量，我可以说，这是我们实验室的研究生 Tim Nasserroka 的工作。
So we can tell the difference between ADHD and non-ADHD adults, and we can tell just from the recording, we can tell if the adults are on Ritalin or not.
因此，我们可以区分 ADHD 和非 ADHD 成年人，并且我们可以仅从录音中看出，我们可以判断成年人是否服用利他林。
So I can measure your nasal airflow and say if you are or are not with ADHD and if you are or are not on Ritalin.
因此，我可以测量您的鼻腔气流，并判断您是否患有注意力缺陷多动症以及您是否正在服用利他林。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Incredible.
难以置信。
I have a couple of questions about this.
我对此有几个问题。
Is it the case that airflow through one nostril is reflective of a sympathetic nervous system dominance versus parasympathetic?
通过一个鼻孔的气流是否反映了交感神经系统相对于副交感神经系统的主导地位？
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or is it simply the case that this alternating left-right nostril periodicity, which you said I think is on the order of about every two hours-
或者只是这种左右鼻孔交替的周期性，你说我认为大约每两个小时一次——
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Two and a half
两个半
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
two and a half, it switches to maximal on one side versus the other.
两点半，一侧与另一侧切换为最大值。
Is that simply reflective of an overall balancing?
这仅仅反映了整体平衡吗？
Maybe is it the hinge in the seesaw, or is it the tilt of the seesaw?
也许是跷跷板的铰链，或者是跷跷板的倾斜？
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
So I don't have a good answer.
所以我没有一个好的答案。
I could say that to some extent, right nostril more open is more sympathetic and the left nostril more open is more parasympathetic, but that wouldn't be very correct.
我可以说，在某种程度上，右鼻孔开得越开，交感神经越强，左鼻孔开得越开，副交感神经越强，但这不是很正确。
I mean, it's a super-
我的意思是，这是一个超级
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm sure that the yogis are going to be all over this, right?
我确信瑜伽士们都会对此感兴趣，对吧？
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
So, right.
所以，对。
I have to-
我必须——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because I get this quite-- My lab does do some stuff on breathing, and the yogis are always saying, okay, because there's this thing...
因为我很明白这一点——我的实验室确实做了一些关于呼吸的研究，瑜伽士总是说，好吧，因为有这个东西......
I don't do yoga anymore.
我不再做瑜伽了。
Not for any particular reason-
没有任何特殊原因——
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Pranayama
调息法
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
but where they'll have you breathe through one nostril or the other, and I've probably been asked this question on social media 10,000 times.
但是他们会让你通过一个鼻孔或另一个鼻孔呼吸，我可能已经在社交媒体上被问过这个问题一万次了。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Okay, wait.
好吧，等等。
I'm going to become public enemy number one of the yogis right now.
我现在将成为瑜伽修行者的头号公敌。
So listen, so we-
所以听着，所以我们——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They'll come at you with yoga mats, which are not very dangerous.
他们会拿着瑜伽垫来找你，这并不是很危险。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
So since we're so interested in this mechanism, one of the things we'd really like to know how to do is to gain control of it somehow.
因此，既然我们对这种机制非常感兴趣，我们真正想知道如何做的一件事就是以某种方式获得对它的控制。
And there's this world out there of yoga who claims to have control over this.
瑜伽界有一个声称可以控制这一点的人。
So we said, "Okay, let's bring really serious yoga practitioners and see if they can shift their nasal cycle from left to right, but by will alone, right?
所以我们说，“好吧，让我们带上真正认真的瑜伽练习者，看看他们是否可以将鼻循环从左转到右，但仅靠意志，对吗？
Not by manipulating themselves somehow.
不是通过某种方式操纵自己。
And if yes, we'll learn from them how they do this, and then we might use this to cure ADHD or whatnot, right?" So we posted on all the lists of the yoga teachers and had this parade of yoga teachers walking into our lab.
如果是的话，我们将向他们学习他们是如何做到这一点的，然后我们可能会用它来治疗多动症或其他什么，对吗？”因此，我们发布了所有瑜伽老师的名单，并让这群瑜伽老师走进了我们的实验室。
This was one of the strangest experiments.
这是最奇怪的实验之一。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
A lot of sandalwood odors and bare feet.
大量的檀香气味和赤脚。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You know?
你知道吗？
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
White clothing and so on.
白色衣服等。
And so we studied 14 yoga teachers.
因此我们研究了 14 名瑜伽老师。
All 14, by the conditions of enlistment for this, came in saying that they can control shifting from left to right nostril.
根据入伍条件，这 14 个人都表示，他们可以控制从左鼻孔转向右鼻孔。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Without plugging a nostril with their finger.
无需用手指堵住鼻孔。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Yeah, by the power of thought alone.
是的，仅靠思想的力量。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
And you know how many of 14 succeeded?
你知道 14 个人中有多少人成功了吗？
Zero.
零。
Including one, the most extreme one was we had this guy And we're recording, and we know how to record this really well, right?
其中一个，最极端的是我们有这个人，我们正在录音，我们知道如何很好地录音，对吧？
And he's sitting there saying, "Yeah, I'm switching now, and it's switching." And you're looking at the monitor and, no, it's not switching.
他坐在那里说：“是的，我现在要转换，而且它正在转换。”你看着显示器，不，它没有切换。
And so no yoga teacher that we found could willfully switch between left and right nostril flow.
因此，我们发现没有瑜伽老师可以随意切换左右鼻孔的气流。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And yet they are convinced that they are, and I have to imagine there's no incentive for them to lie, right?
但他们坚信自己是这样的，我想他们没有撒谎的动机，对吧？
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
No, even the opposite.
不，甚至相反。
This puts them in an awkward position once...
这让他们一度陷入了尴尬的境地……
Yeah, I don't know what the deal is, but none of them can do it.
是的，我不知道这是什么交易，但他们都做不到。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Given that the alternating flow through one or the other nostril is reflective of the autonomic nervous system, has this two-and-a-half-hour periodicity, if I suddenly enter a bout of stress, for instance, does it switch?
鉴于通过一个或另一个鼻孔的交替气流反映了自主神经系统，具有两个半小时的周期性，例如，如果我突然陷入压力，它会改变吗？
Because that's reflective of the autonomic nervous system.
因为这反映了自主神经系统。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And the reason I'm asking this question is not because I think that's necessarily important as it relates to stress, but I'm trying to understand the direction of causality.
我问这个问题的原因并不是因为我认为这必然重要，因为它与压力有关，而是我试图理解因果关系的方向。
In other words, is the-
换句话说，就是——
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
As are we
我们也一样
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
the unilateral nostril smelling periodicity, we named it something.
单侧鼻孔嗅觉周期性，我们给它起了个名字。
I named it the wrong thing, I'm sure.
我确定我把它命名错了。
Is that driving the shift in the autonomic nervous system, or is it merely reflective of the shift?
这是否推动了自主神经系统的转变，或者仅仅是这种转变的反映？
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
So you've very concisely now worded aim two of a grant that was probably just rejected.
因此，您现在已经非常简洁地表述了可能刚刚被拒绝的资助的第二个目标。
But basically, we're trying to answer exactly that question, and we're currently running experiments on that line.
但基本上，我们正在尝试准确回答这个问题，并且我们目前正在这方面进行实验。
So we have one experiment where we're exposing participants to pain.
因此，我们进行了一项实验，让参与者承受痛苦。
We're using cold water hand exposure.
我们使用冷水进行手部暴露。
It's a really cool paradigm because there's huge individual differences.
这是一个非常酷的范例，因为存在巨大的个体差异。
We just started this.
我们刚刚开始这个。
We built the setup just now, and you have a lot of meat to work with there because there's a lot of individual differences.
我们刚刚建立了这个设置，你有很多东西需要处理，因为存在很多个体差异。
It's capped at three minutes, so for safety reasons, because you have participants putting their hand in two-degree Celsius water.
出于安全原因，它的上限为三分钟，因为参与者将手放入两摄氏度的水中。
But there'll be participants who will pull it out at 10 seconds, nine seconds, and then you'll have three minutes as well.
但会有参与者在 10 秒、9 秒时把它拉出来，然后你也有 3 分钟的时间。
So there's lots of...
所以有很多...
And so now I'm sharing pilot data with you-
所以现在我正在与你们分享试点数据-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Got it
明白了
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
...
...
so when this ends up being published, it might be the opposite, but so far it seems that the exposure to cold generates a shift in nasal balance.
因此，当这篇文章最终发表时，情况可能恰恰相反，但到目前为止，暴露在寒冷中似乎会导致鼻腔平衡发生变化。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So autonomic arousal can drive the shift, potentially.
因此，自主唤醒可能会推动这种转变。
Earlier, you were describing the architecture of these smelling systems, and you mentioned these glomeruli where the olfactory receptors converge-
早些时候，您描述了这些嗅觉系统的架构，并且提到了嗅觉受体聚集的这些肾小球 -
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in the bulb.
在灯泡中。
And then later you mentioned that the system is unilateral, but with a mirror representation on both sides of the brain.
后来您提到该系统是单侧的，但大脑两侧都有镜像表示。
So for those who don't think in terms of neuroanatomy, what Noam was describing is the fact that, of course, there are two nostrils and then a bunch of receptors.
因此，对于那些不从神经解剖学角度思考的人来说，诺姆所描述的是这样一个事实：当然，有两个鼻孔，然后是一堆受体。
They converge in these glomeruli, but you have a mirror representation of that on both sides of the brain, and that most of that information is kept on one side of the brain or the other.
它们汇聚在这些肾小球中，但大脑两侧都有肾小球的镜像表示，并且大部分信息都保存在大脑的一侧或另一侧。
There isn't a lot of extensive intermixing at the first order of processing.
在第一次加工过程中并没有进行大量的混合。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So the question I have is whether or not you believe, I'm not asking for data.
所以我的问题是你是否相信，我不是在要求数据。
First, I just want to know what you believe, that this alternating nostril airflow phenomenon has anything to do with preferential processing of olfactory information in terms of right brain, left brain, with the caveat that anytime we hear right brain, left brain, we've covered this in a previous episode, most of what people hear out there about right brain, left brain, emotionality, logical stuff, is completely wrong.
首先，我只是想知道你相信什么，这种鼻孔气流交替现象与右脑、左脑优先处理嗅觉信息有关，但需要注意的是，每当我们听到右脑、左脑时，我们在上一集中已经介绍过这一点，大多数人们听到的关于右脑、左脑、情感、逻辑的东西是完全错误的。
Doesn't exist, is a total fabrication, and we'd like to abolish that myth.
不存在，完全是捏造的，我们想废除这个神话。
But with that aside, or set aside rather, what are your thoughts on why the information would switch from one side of the brain to the other at all?
但抛开这一点，或者更确切地说，抛开这一点，你对为什么信息会从大脑的一侧转移到另一侧有何想法？
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
I don't think that the nasal cycle is an olfaction story.
我不认为鼻循环是一个嗅觉故事。
So I don't think that this was shaped by the olfactory system, nor do I think this has a major impact on olfaction.
所以我不认为这是由嗅觉系统塑造的，也不认为这对嗅觉有重大影响。
I think the nasal cycle story is a different story about brain function.
我认为鼻周期的故事是关于大脑功能的不同故事。
So we have this sort of pet theory we're calling now the sniffing brain approach, where basically we think that nasal inhalation is timing and driving a lot of aspects and patterns of neural activity and cognitive processing.
因此，我们有这种宠物理论，我们现在称之为嗅探大脑方法，基本上我们认为鼻腔吸入是定时并驱动神经活动和认知处理的许多方面和模式。
And this theory is olfaction-inspired in its beginning.
这个理论最初是受嗅觉启发的。
If you think of the mammalian brain, which evolved from olfaction, it's sitting there, and in olfaction, because olfaction depends on sniffing, you have this situation where you have a sniff, you have information, and then flat, nothing.
如果你想想哺乳动物的大脑，它是从嗅觉进化而来的，它就坐在那里，在嗅觉中，因为嗅觉依赖于嗅，你会遇到这样的情况：你有嗅，你有信息，然后平坦，什么也没有。
Right?
正确的？
And then you have information, and then nothing.
然后你就有了信息，然后就什么也没有了。
So information processing is one-to-one linked to nasal inhalation, and we think that this property evolved to be meaningful in brain processing in general, not only of olfactory information, but of any type of information because the brain evolved in this way, in this way that it processes information on inhalation onset.
因此，信息处理与鼻腔吸入是一对一相关的，我们认为这种特性在一般大脑处理中是有意义的，不仅是嗅觉信息，而且是任何类型的信息，因为大脑以这种方式进化，以这种方式处理有关吸入开始的信息。
So a study led by Ofer Peril from our lab, two, three years ago, we looked at something completely non-olfactory.
因此，两三年前，由我们实验室的 Ofer Peril 领导的一项研究，我们研究了完全非嗅觉的东西。
We looked at visual spatial processing, and we compared visual spatial processing on inhalation versus exhalation.
我们研究了视觉空间处理，并比较了吸气和呼气时的视觉空间处理。
And the brain does this completely different on inhalation versus exhalation.
大脑在吸气和呼气时的表现完全不同。
In that particular task- People performed significantly better on inhalation versus exhalation.
在这项特定任务中，人们在吸气方面的表现明显优于呼气。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What was the task?
任务是什么？
Was it an olfactory task?
这是嗅觉任务吗？
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
No, no, it's a visuospatial task.
不，不，这是一项视觉空间任务。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, excuse me, yeah.
哦，对不起，是的。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
So this is a task where the specifics of the task were that you see a shape, and you have to determine if it's a shape that can or cannot exist in the real world.
因此，这是一项任务，其具体任务是您看到一个形状，并且您必须确定它是否可以存在于现实世界中。
So some of them were these Usher shapes, where one facet doesn't reach the other facet.
所以其中一些是亚瑟形状，其中一个面没有到达另一个面。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The impossible figure type stuff.
不可能的图形类型的东西。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
But structural shapes.
但结构形状。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
And so a pure visuospatial task.
这是一个纯粹的视觉空间任务。
We intentionally went for a task that is not considered a ventral temporal task, an olfactory cortex task in any way.
我们有意去做一项不被认为是腹侧颞叶任务、嗅觉皮层任务的任务。
And people performed much better on inhalation versus exhalation at doing this task.
在完成这项任务时，人们在吸气时的表现比呼气时要好得多。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Was there a both nostrils occluded version where people were forced to mouth breathe?
有没有双鼻孔被堵住的版本，人们被迫用嘴呼吸？
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Yes.
是的。
And in this particular task, they also did better on mouth inhalation versus mouth exhalation.
在这项特殊任务中，他们在用嘴吸气方面也比用嘴呼气方面做得更好。
But the difference wasn't as pronounced as it was with nasal inhalation versus exhalation.
但这种差异并不像鼻吸气与呼气那样明显。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So, I'm a big proponent of nasal, not mouth breathing whenever possible-
所以，我非常支持用鼻呼吸，而不是用嘴呼吸——
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
For sure
当然
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
for many health-related reasons.
出于许多与健康相关的原因。
I'm a big fan of the book "Jaws: A Hidden Epidemic" written by colleagues of mine at Stanford.
我是斯坦福大学同事写的《大白鲨：隐藏的流行病》一书的忠实粉丝。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Familiar with it.
熟悉它。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yep.
是的。
And this idea that people who mouth breathe experience more colds, more infections of various kinds.
这种观点认为，用嘴呼吸的人会经历更多的感冒、更多的各种感染。
It's not good aesthetically or for the dentature.
这对于美观或牙齿来说都不好。
I never know...
我从来不知道...
The teeth, the gums.
牙齿、牙龈。
It's stuff, folks.
这是东西，伙计们。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Stuff.
东西。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sorry, my dentist is going to come after me.
抱歉，我的牙医要来找我。
Need to go to the dentist anyway.
无论如何都需要去看牙医。
The nose breathing is great for your health relative to mouth breathing.
相对于用嘴呼吸，用鼻子呼吸对您的健康很有好处。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
So I think it's also good for your cognition, not only for your dental health.
所以我认为这对你的认知也有好处，而不仅仅是对你的牙齿健康。
I think that nose breathing shapes cognition, and there are other labs who are finding the same.
我认为鼻子呼吸塑造认知，其他实验室也有同样的发现。
Again, Cristina Zelano is doing work on this line.
Cristina Zelano 再次致力于这方面的工作。
She had major contributions here and Johan Lundström is doing work on this line.
她在这里做出了重大贡献，Johan Lundström 正在从事这方面的工作。
There's lots of studies suggesting that nasal inhalation is timing cognitive processing and modulating it.
有大量研究表明，鼻吸气可以调节认知过程的时间并对其进行调节。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Incredible.
难以置信。
Perhaps not surprising given what you've taught us about the olfactory system.
鉴于您教给我们有关嗅觉系统的知识，这也许并不奇怪。
These two holes in the front of our face, these nostrils, are a pathway to the brain, right?
我们脸上的这两个孔，即鼻孔，是通往大脑的通道，对吧？
I love to tell people, because I work on the visual system in my lab, that your eyes are two pieces of brain extruded from the cranial vault-
我喜欢告诉人们，因为我在实验室研究视觉系统，你的眼睛是从颅顶挤出的两块大脑——
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
which they are.
他们就是这样。
The retinas anyhow.
无论如何，视网膜。
And then you never look at anyone the same way again.
然后你就再也不会以同样的方式看待任何人了。
It's okay.
没关系。
But the olfactory sensory neurons are right there at the tops of those caverns that we call nostrils, and they are brain.
但嗅觉感觉神经元就位于我们称之为鼻孔的那些洞穴的顶部，它们就是大脑。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Definitely.
确实。
It's the only place where your brain meets the outside world, because in your retina, they're protected by a lens.
这是你的大脑与外界接触的唯一地方，因为在你的视网膜中，它们受到晶状体的保护。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
And here you have neurons in contact with the world.
这里有与世界接触的神经元。
This actually has been the source for some theories on a potential route for neurodegenerative mechanisms.
这实际上是一些关于神经退行性机制潜在途径的理论的来源。
So, as you may know, loss of the sense of smell is one of the, if not the earliest sign of neurodegenerative disease.
因此，正如您所知，嗅觉丧失即使不是神经退行性疾病的最早迹象，也是其中之一。
So, for example, in Parkinson's disease, there's a loss in the sense of smell probably 10 years before any other symptom.
例如，在帕金森病中，嗅觉丧失可能比任何其他症状早 10 年。
But people have failed to make this a diagnostic tool because it's nonspecific.
但人们未能将其作为诊断工具，因为它不具有特异性。
So it's not as if you could come to your doctor and say, "I'm losing my sense of smell" and they'll say, "Oh, early sign of Parkinson's." Because you can have many reasons to lose your sense of smell and so on.
所以，你不可能去找医生说：“我失去了嗅觉”，他们会说：“哦，这是帕金森病的早期症状。”因为你可能有很多原因失去嗅觉等等。
But olfactory loss, again, is an early sign of neurodegeneration, and there's at least one theory, particularly about Alzheimer's disease, suggesting that Alzheimer's may be the result of a pathogen that enters the brain through the olfactory system.
但嗅觉丧失又是神经退行性疾病的早期迹象，至少有一种理论，特别是关于阿尔茨海默病的理论，表明阿尔茨海默病可能是病原体通过嗅觉系统进入大脑的结果。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hmm.
嗯。
Oh, interesting.
哦，有趣。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
It's not, of course, a mainstream or widely accepted theory of any type, but it just highlights this notion that the nose is a path to our brain.
当然，这不是任何类型的主流或广泛接受的理论，但它只是强调了鼻子是通往我们大脑的路径这一概念。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think these non-invasive readouts of potential neurodegeneration, such as visual tests, because of the fact that the retinas are part of the brain, and loss of neurons in the retina is often associated with other forms of central degeneration, Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, et cetera.
我认为这些潜在神经退行性变的非侵入性读数，例如视觉测试，因为视网膜是大脑的一部分，视网膜神经元的损失通常与其他形式的中枢变性、阿尔茨海默病、帕金森病等有关。
As it's a little more invasive than what you're describing, I'm beginning to wonder why we don't have a olfactory task every time we go to the doctor that would allow tracking over time.
因为它比你所描述的更具侵入性，我开始想知道为什么我们每次去看医生时都没有一个嗅觉任务来允许随着时间的推移进行跟踪。
Because, of course, as you mentioned, someone can lose their sense of smell.
当然，正如您提到的，有人可能会失去嗅觉。
Does that mean they're getting Alzheimer's?
这是否意味着他们患上了阿尔茨海默氏症？
Not necessarily.
未必。
But if their sense of smell was terrific the year before and it's 50% worse the next year-
但如果他们的嗅觉前一年很棒，而第二年就差了 50%——
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
That's a really bad sign
这是一个非常糟糕的迹象
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
yeah, that's a bad sign.
是的，这是一个坏兆头。
And so what we're talking about is something completely non-invasive, and could be relatively pleasant to innocuous-
所以我们谈论的是完全非侵入性的东西，并且可能相对令人愉快到无害-
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
depending on the odors used.
取决于所使用的气味。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
So yeah.
所以是的。
So first I can answer that, right?
首先我可以回答这个问题，对吧？
And the reason that that's not happened, and that may be changing right now, but the reason that has not happened is because olfaction has not been effectively digitized, right?
而这种情况没有发生的原因，而且现在可能正在改变，但没有发生的原因是因为嗅觉还没有被有效地数字化，对吧？
So if you need to generate really precise visual information, you can buy a monitor for 100 bucks that is at the resolution of the visual system, basically.
因此，如果您需要生成真正精确的视觉信息，您基本上可以花 100 美元购买一台具有视觉系统分辨率的显示器。
And if you want to generate auditory stimuli really precisely, then you can buy an amplifier for maybe a bit more than 100 bucks, but not that much more.
如果您想真正精确地产生听觉刺激，那么您可以花 100 多美元购买一个放大器，但也不会更多。
And you'll be at the resolution of the auditory system.
您将获得听觉系统的分辨率。
In our lab, we build devices that generate odors.
在我们的实验室中，我们建造了产生气味的设备。
We call them olfactometers, which is a misnomer because they don't measure anything, but that's what they've always been called, so we call them olfactometers as well.
我们称它们为嗅觉计，这是一个用词不当，因为它们不测量任何东西，但它们一直都是这么叫的，所以我们也称它们为嗅觉计。
And we've already built at least one olfactometer that cost a quarter of a million euro, and it's pathetic.
我们已经建造了至少一个嗅觉计，花费了 25 万欧元，这很可怜。
So it's pathetic.
所以这很可悲。
It's slow, it's contaminated, it's nowhere near the resolution of your system.
它很慢，它被污染，它远不及你的系统的分辨率。
So one of the reasons that's not happened is just the utterly poor control of the stimulus.
因此，这种情况没有发生的原因之一就是对刺激措施的控制非常糟糕。
Mind you, to some extent, it has happened in that there are standard clinical tests of olfaction, basically two that sort of control the world in this respect.
请注意，在某种程度上，它已经发生，因为有标准的嗅觉临床测试，基本上是在这方面控制世界的两种测试。
The older one is a test called the UPSIT, which stands for the University of Pennsylvania Smell Identification Test.
较旧的一项测试称为 UPSIT，代表宾夕法尼亚大学气味识别测试。
It was developed by Richard Doty in Penn, and it's a test where you scratch and sniff, and it's a four alternative forced choice test with 40 odorants.
它是由宾夕法尼亚大学的理查德·多蒂（Richard Doty）开发的，这是一项需要抓挠和嗅闻的测试，它是使用 40 种气味剂的四种替代强制选择测试。
So you have these 40 pages that you page through and you sniff and smell and it's been normed on gazillions of tests.
因此，您可以翻阅这 40 页，闻一闻，并经过无数次测试对其进行规范。
I'm always amused by it because, so Richard Doty made a ton of money on the UPSIT, but he needed it because he has a habit.
我总是对此感到好笑，因为理查德·多蒂（Richard Doty）在 UPSIT 上赚了很多钱，但他需要它，因为他有一个习惯。
He has a NASCAR.
他有一辆纳斯卡赛车。
So every time we buy UPSITs in the lab, I say, "There's another gallon of gas into Richard Doty."
因此，每次我们在实验室购买 UPSIT 时，我都会说：“理查德·多蒂 (Richard Doty) 又多了一加仑汽油。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
He races NASCAR?
他参加纳斯卡比赛？
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Not like NASCAR, but one lower than that.
不像 NASCAR，但比 NASCAR 低一些。
I don't know, some sort of Formula A or Formula Ford or something.
我不知道，某种 A 级方程式或福特方程式之类的。
He races a car, and so that's where all the UPSITs went.
他参加赛车比赛，所以所有 UPSIT 都去那里。
So I always feel good about buying UPSITs because I know they're going to that good cause.
因此，我总是对购买 UPSIT 感到满意，因为我知道他们会为了这个美好的事业而努力。
But-
但是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Keeping him in the fast lane.
让他保持在快车道上。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
But so that's one test that's out there and indeed has been shown as a-- so there's reduced UPSIT in Alzheimer's and Parkinson's and in a host of other diseases.
但这是一项现有的测试，而且确实已被证明是——阿尔茨海默病、帕金森病以及许多其他疾病的 UPSIT 降低了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
And there's a European version called Sniffing Sticks that Thomas Hummel has developed, and it's basically the same sort of concept of ...
托马斯·胡梅尔 (Thomas Hummel) 开发了一种名为“嗅探棒”的欧洲版本，它的概念基本上是相同的……
That one isn't scratch and sniff.
那不是抓挠和嗅闻。
It's like these pens that you open up and sniff.
就像这些钢笔，你打开闻一闻。
But those exist, but they're not as convenient as delivering stimuli in vision and audition, and that's why you don't have what you've just suggested.
但这些是存在的，但它们不像在视觉和听觉中提供刺激那么方便，这就是为什么你没有你刚才建议的东西。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Interesting.
有趣。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Another place where you don't have it, which I think would've been even more meaningful is olfaction is not tested in newborns.
另一个没有的地方，我认为更有意义的是，新生儿没有测试嗅觉。
Where vision and audition is.
视觉和听觉在哪里。
There's this thing called congenital anosmia, which is being without the sense of smell from birth, supposedly.
有一种叫做先天性嗅觉缺失症，据说是从出生起就没有嗅觉。
Congenital , which is a half a percent of the population.
先天性，占人口的百分之半。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's not a trivial number.
这不是一个小数字。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Not totally, yeah.
不完全是，是的。
But nobody knows if that really is true because here's an amazing factoid.
但没有人知道这是否属实，因为这是一个令人惊奇的事实。
Guess the average age at which congenital anosmia is diagnosed, and this is a horrible statistic for me, for the way I see the world.
猜猜先天性嗅觉缺失症被诊断出来的平均年龄，这对我来说是一个可怕的统计数据，对我看待世界的方式来说。
But what do you think the average age of diagnosis is for congenital anosmia?
但您认为先天性嗅觉缺失症的平均诊断年龄是多少？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Five years of age?
五岁？
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Fourteen.
十四。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Incredible.
难以置信。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Fourteen.
十四。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So most people who are one half of a 1% of the human population, presumably-
因此，大多数占人口 1% 的一半的人，大概是——
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
is without the sense of smell and doesn't realize that until they're 14 years old.
没有嗅觉，直到 14 岁才意识到这一点。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Well, I don't know when they realized it first, but it's formally diagnosed at 14 on average.
嗯，我不知道他们什么时候第一次意识到这一点，但平均 14 岁就被正式诊断出来。
Which means some of them even later, right?
这意味着其中一些甚至会更晚，对吗？
After.
后。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And right.
对了。
It's a distribution.
这是一个分布。
Do they suffer?
他们受苦吗？
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Yes.
是的。
So first of all, they suffer socially.
首先，他们在社会上遭受苦难。
And there's a host of deleterious life events associated with congenital anosmia.
还有许多与先天性嗅觉缺失症相关的有害生活事件。
They die younger.
他们死得更年轻。
This is work out of Ilona Croy in Germany.
这是德国伊洛娜·克罗伊 (Ilona Croy) 的作品。
And amongst the various things that are predicted by anosmia is shorter lifespan.
嗅觉缺失症预示的众多事情之一就是寿命缩短。
But things like reduced social contacts, reduced romantic social contacts.
但诸如社交接触减少、浪漫社交接触减少之类的事情。
It's not a good thing.
这不是什么好事。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And do they lack olfactory bulbs?
它们缺乏嗅球吗？
I'm presuming they have noses and nostrils.
我猜他们有鼻子和鼻孔。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
They have noses.
他们有鼻子。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There is a condition I'm aware of where children are born without noses and nostrils.
我知道有一种情况，孩子出生时没有鼻子和鼻孔。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Those are rare.
这些都是罕见的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Very rare.
非常罕见。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Those are rare things.
这些都是稀有的东西。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Very rare.
非常罕见。
We won't focus on that because it's exceedingly rare.
我们不会关注这一点，因为这种情况非常罕见。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So-
所以——
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
But they're born with noses and nostrils.
但它们生来就有鼻子和鼻孔。
And here's the thing, we don't know if they're born with olfactory bulbs.
事情是这样的，我们不知道他们是否天生就有嗅球。
Most of them, although not all of them, but most of them don't have olfactory bulbs in adulthood.
他们中的大多数，虽然不是全部，但大多数在成年后都没有嗅球。
Or I should rephrase that, have remnant olfactory bulbs, really shriveled olfactory bulbs.
或者我应该换个说法，有残留的嗅球，真的干瘪的嗅球。
But nobody can say the cause and effect here.
但没有人能说出这里的因果。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Before we talk about the role of the requirement for olfactory bulbs for olfaction, a very interesting topic in its own right.
在我们讨论嗅球对嗅觉的需求的作用之前，这本身就是一个非常有趣的话题。
I'm curious as to whether or not their endocrine system is altered, because as we'll soon talk about, there's a lot of signaling through the nose-
我很好奇他们的内分泌系统是否发生了改变，因为正如我们很快就会谈到的，有很多信号通过鼻子发出——
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
from between individuals that triggers things, everything from the onset of puberty to feelings of romantic attraction, attachment, these sorts of things.
从个体之间触发的事情，从青春期的开始到浪漫的吸引力、依恋的感觉，诸如此类的事情。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is it known whether or not-- And I should say, excuse me for interrupting myself, but as long as I'm interrupting you every five minutes, I might as well interrupt myself, too.
是否知道——我应该说，请原谅我打断自己，但只要我每五分钟打断一次，我也可以打断自己。
That we are well aware of the proximity of the olfactory system to some of the hypothalamic systems that regulate the release of gonadotropins-
我们很清楚嗅觉系统与一些调节促性腺激素释放的下丘脑系统的接近性-
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
which control testosterone and estrogen production, et cetera.
控制睾酮和雌激素的产生等。
So, are they hormonally normal?
那么，他们的荷尔蒙正常吗？
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
So some are and some aren't, and I'll be specific.
所以有些是，有些不是，我会具体说明。
So there is a condition known as Kallmann syndrome.
因此，有一种称为卡尔曼综合症的病症。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Which is hypogonadic development in men.
这是男性性腺发育低下的情况。
And in Kallmann syndrome, they're practically all anosmic.
在卡尔曼综合症中，他们几乎都是嗅觉缺失症。
So, to answer your question, yes, there's a direct link, and it materializes in Kallmann syndrome.
因此，回答你的问题，是的，存在直接联系，并且它在卡尔曼综合症中得到体现。
That said, not all congenitally anosmic individuals have Kallmann syndrome, and not all, but almost all people who have Kallmann syndrome are anosmic.
也就是说，并非所有先天性嗅觉丧失症患者都患有卡尔曼综合症，也不是所有但几乎所有患有卡尔曼综合症的人都患有嗅觉丧失症。
So, Kallmann syndrome goes with anosmia.
因此，卡尔曼综合症与嗅觉丧失有关。
I think there's a female equivalent of Kallmann's, or I don't remember its name.
我认为有一个与卡尔曼类似的女性版本，或者我不记得它的名字了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's not in the Turner syndrome family, is it?
它不属于特纳综合症家族，是吗？
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
I'm not sure.
我不确定。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
And I think it's also associated with anosmia, but I'm not confident of that.
我认为这也与嗅觉丧失有关，但我对此并没有信心。
But Kallmann's is associated with anosmia.
但卡尔曼氏症与嗅觉丧失有关。
So the answer is yes.
所以答案是肯定的。
And olfaction and reproduction are tightly linked, and they're tightly linked in all mammals.
嗅觉和繁殖是紧密相连的，而且在所有哺乳动物中都是紧密相连的。
And we are big terrestrial mammals, and olfaction and reproduction are linked in humans as well.
我们是大型陆生哺乳动物，人类的嗅觉和繁殖也有联系。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, we will definitely get into that.
是的，我们肯定会参与其中。
I have a story/question that I'd like to tell you, ask you, as a segue to that, noting, of course, that we'll get back to the requirement for olfactory bulbs, yes or no, for olfaction.
我有一个故事/问题想告诉你，问你，作为这个故事的延续，当然，我们将回到对嗅觉球的要求，是或否，对于嗅觉。
And this relates to when I was growing up, I grew up at the end of a street with a lot of boys of my age, who, just by coincidence, had a lot of older sisters that were my older sister's age.
这与我的成长有关，我在一条街的尽头长大，周围有很多和我同龄的男孩，碰巧他们有很多和我姐姐同龄的姐姐。
It was fortunate, so I had a lot of kids to play with.
很幸运，我有很多孩子可以一起玩。
We would hang out at each other's houses, bike, build jumps, and do all those things, like kid stuff, fort stuff, get into trouble or whatnot.
我们会在彼此的房子里闲逛，骑自行车，搭建跳跃，做所有这些事情，比如孩子的事情，堡垒的事情，遇到麻烦等等。
And oftentimes, we would end up leaving our articles of clothing at each other's houses all the time, like T-shirts and jackets, and so my mom was constantly coming in and saying, "There's these clothes.
很多时候，我们最终会把自己的衣服留在对方家里，比如 T 恤和夹克，所以我妈妈经常进来说：“这些衣服都有。
Someone left this here.
有人把这个留在这里了。
I don't know who it was." We were all more or less the same size.
我不知道是谁。”我们的身材都差不多。
And from as far back as I could remember, six, seven years old and onward, I could pick up a shirt or a jacket, smell it, and say, "Oh, well, that's Eric Eisenhart's shirt." A friend of mine there, I just gave his name.
从我记事起，从六岁、七岁开始，我就可以拿起一件衬衫或一件夹克，闻一闻，然后说：“哦，好吧，那是埃里克·艾森哈特的衬衫。”我在那里的一个朋友，我刚刚报了他的名字。
Or, "Oh, that's Scott Matson's shirt." I could just smell the shirt, and in a conscious way, know who it belonged to, having never, I promise, not that I would pretend I hadn't if I had, but having never actually done the exercise of going and taking and smelling my friend intentionally.
或者，“哦，那是斯科特·马森的衬衫。”我可以闻那件衬衫，并有意识地知道它属于谁，我保证，如果我闻过的话，我不会假装没有闻过，但我从来没有真正做过故意去闻我的朋友的练习。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay?
好吧？
In fact, if anything, I had all the reasons in the world to avoid smelling the other young boys-
事实上，如果有什么不同的话，那就是我有充分的理由避免闻到其他小男孩的气味——
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in my neighborhood.
在我家附近。
Okay, so-
好吧，那么——
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that raises a question of whether or not we are consciously and/or subconsciously coding identification of people that we interact with frequently or infrequently in terms of their smell, or some other aspect of their chemistry.
这就提出了一个问题：我们是否有意识和/或潜意识地根据气味或化学的其他方面来识别我们经常或不经常互动的人。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So yes.
所以是的。
We're doing that all the time, in my view, and a lot of this processing, almost all of it, is subconscious, and I don't know why.
在我看来，我们一直在这样做，而且很多这样的处理，几乎所有的处理，都是潜意识的，我不知道为什么。
I'll already put that out there.
我已经把它放在那里了。
I have no idea why human nature, or nature or culture or whatnot, has pushed this into the realm of subconscious and something we're unaware of.
我不知道为什么人性、自然、文化或诸如此类的东西，将其推入潜意识领域和我们不知道的领域。
But we do it all the time, and our lab has lots of studies on this front.
但我们一直在这样做，我们的实验室在这方面有很多研究。
One of them you may be familiar with that had gained some notoriety because it's amusing.
其中一个你可能很熟悉，但因为很有趣而声名狼藉。
So, we look at human behavior a lot.
因此，我们经常关注人类的行为。
We try to look at it through our nose in the way we look at what people are doing.
我们尝试用我们观察人们所做事情的方式来观察它。
We try to think, "If I was a dog, what would I think of this?" And if you look at dogs, when they interact, they visibly sniff each other.
我们试着思考，“如果我是一只狗，我会怎么想？”如果你观察狗，当它们互动时，它们明显会互相嗅闻。
It's very obvious.
这是非常明显的。
They walk up to each other, and they sniff each other.
他们走到对方身边，互相嗅着。
And yet humans don't typically walk up to a stranger and carefully sniff them, right?
然而，人类通常不会走到陌生人面前并仔细地嗅他们，对吗？
I mean, we're sort of obliged to sniff our babies.
我的意思是，我们有点不得不嗅我们的婴儿。
That's considered almost something you're supposed to do.
这几乎被认为是你应该做的事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
And it's not culturally taboo to sniff our loved ones.
嗅闻我们所爱的人并不是文化上的禁忌。
It sort of doesn't seem like an odd thing to do.
这似乎并不是一件奇怪的事情。
But we don't sniff strangers, right?
但我们不会嗅陌生人，对吗？
Well, or do we?
好吧，或者我们呢？
So we're finding more and more mechanisms where we do this, and the one I'm referring to now for one example is we started looking at handshaking.
因此，我们正在寻找越来越多的机制来做到这一点，我现在提到的一个例子是我们开始研究握手。
Handshaking is this really odd behavior, and it's not only in the West, by the way, as some people think that it's only a Western thing.
握手是一种非常奇怪的行为，顺便说一句，这不仅发生在西方，因为有些人认为这只是西方的事情。
It's not.
事实并非如此。
It's almost everywhere.
它几乎无处不在。
And there's really poor understanding of how this behavior evolved, like where did this thing come from?
人们对这种行为是如何演变的了解甚少，比如这个东西是从哪里来的？
So if you look for the Wikipedia version, then they'll tell you that it's to show that you're not holding a weapon in your hand.
因此，如果您查找维基百科版本，那么他们会告诉您，这是为了表明您手中没有拿着武器。
But there's really no good evidence for that.
但确实没有很好的证据证明这一点。
It's a bit like the trillion bloodhound receptor story.
这有点像万亿猎犬受体的故事。
I mean, we tried to find it.
我的意思是，我们试图找到它。
Why do people say that?
人们为什么这么说？
They just do.
他们就是这么做的。
And we started looking at people handshaking, and we noticed, or it seemed to us that we're noticing, that people will shake hands and then go like this and like this.
我们开始观察人们握手的情况，我们注意到，或者在我们看来，我们似乎注意到，人们会握手，然后像这样这样。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
For those of you listening, not watching-
对于那些听而不是看的人来说——
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
Noam is taking his hand and wiping it on his face.
诺姆握住他的手，在脸上擦拭。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Rubbing his nose or-
揉揉鼻子或者——
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Touching myself
抚摸我自己
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
touching the side of his cheek.
触摸他的脸颊一侧。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Yeah, these things that we do all the time.
是的，这些事情我们一直在做。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
After a handshake.
握手之后。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Well, so first of all, we do them all the time just period.
嗯，首先，我们一直在这样做。
The baseline here is really high, and we'll get to that in a second.
这里的基线非常高，我们稍后会讨论它。
But these behaviors that you could easily not notice.
但这些行为你很容易不会注意到。
And so we asked whether that's a real thing.
所以我们问这是否是真的。
And this was a study led by Dan Frumin in our lab at the time.
这是 Dan Frumin 当时在我们实验室领导的一项研究。
And what we did first, and if you want, we can link.
我们首先做了什么，如果您愿意，我们可以链接。
So this was published in eLife, and one of the nice things about eLife is that it has a very effective way to embed videos in the publication.
所以这篇文章发表在 eLife 上，而 eLife 的好处之一就是它有一种非常有效的方法可以在出版物中嵌入视频。
So if you want, we can link this to your system later on, the eLife-
因此，如果您愿意，我们可以稍后将其链接到您的系统，即 eLife-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We put it in the show note captions as a link on YouTube and the other four platforms, Spotify, Apple
我们将其作为 YouTube 和其他四个平台（Spotify、Apple）的链接放在节目注释标题中
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
So what we did is we brought in participants to our lab, and we sat them in the room, experiment room, and told them the experiment would start soon and they should wait for us there.
所以我们所做的就是把参与者带到我们的实验室，让他们坐在房间里，实验室里，告诉他们实验很快就会开始，他们应该在那里等我们。
They didn't know what they were coming from.
他们不知道自己来自何方。
Unbeknownst to them, they were already being videoed.
他们不知道的是，他们已经被录像了。
Of course, later on, they had the opportunity to not agree to us saving the video, in which case, we would delete it immediately, or letting us use it for science, or some letting us use it for more than science, for the video that's now on eLife.
当然，后来他们有机会不同意我们保存视频，在这种情况下，我们会立即删除它，或者让我们将它用于科学，或者有些让我们将它用于科学之外的用途，用于现在 eLife 上的视频。
And we would walk into the room and say, "Okay, just wait here.
我们会走进房间说：“好吧，就在这儿等吧。
We'll be right back with you to set up our experiment." And they would sit there for three minutes, and during those three minutes, we could later quantify how much indeed they, just by baseline, how much they touch their nose or their forehead or their chin, or how many times their hand reaches their face.
我们会马上回来和你一起开始我们的实验。”他们会坐在那里三分钟，在这三分钟里，我们稍后可以通过基线量化他们确实有多少次，他们触摸鼻子、前额或下巴的次数，或者他们的手接触脸部的次数。
And by the way, that baseline is not low.
顺便说一句，这个基线并不低。
Okay?
好吧？
And then three minutes later, an experimenter would walk into the room and would share a consistent text.
三分钟后，实验者走进房间并分享一致的文本。
It would be, "We're still setting up our equipment in the other room, and so just wait here and we'll be right back with you.
它会是，“我们还在另一个房间设置我们的设备，所以只要在这里等，我们马上就回来和你在一起。
But in the meantime, just wait here." And the experimenter went through this 20-second fixed text, and in half of the cases, it included a handshake.
但与此同时，就在这里等一下。”实验者浏览了这段 20 秒的固定文本，在一半的情况下，其中包括握手。
This was a new experimenter, not the one who put them in the room, so it's the first time they met.
这是一个新的实验者，不是把他们放进房间的人，所以这是他们第一次见面。
So it would be, "Hello, I'm so-and-so." They would put out their hand and shake their hand or not.
所以它会是，“你好，我是某某。”他们会伸出手来握手，也可能不握手。
Okay?
好吧？
And we did all possible interactions in terms of gender, so we matched male participants with male and female experimenters and female participants with female and male experimenters, and so you had handshake and no-handshake conditions, and then you can quantify that behavior of the hand going to the nose after a handshake.
我们在性别方面做了所有可能的互动，所以我们将男性参与者与男性和女性实验者相匹配，将女性参与者与女性和男性实验者相匹配，所以你有握手和不握手的条件，然后你可以量化握手后手伸向鼻子的行为。
And there was a remarkable increase in the hand going to the nose after a handshake.
握手后伸向鼻子的手明显增加。
And this is one of the nice cases.
这是很好的案例之一。
The paper includes statistics, but you don't need statistics here.
该论文包含统计数据，但这里不需要统计数据。
Just look at the video.
看看视频吧。
It's unreal.
这是不真实的。
The video is unreal.
视频不真实。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So interesting.
太有趣了。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
So the hand goes to the nose.
所以手伸向鼻子。
Now, we did a few controls here to verify that this is an olfactory behavior.
现在，我们在这里做了一些控制来验证这是一种嗅觉行为。
One is, unbeknownst to the participants, we measured nasal airflow.
一是，在参与者不知情的情况下，我们测量了鼻气流。
And people not only bring their hand to their nose, they sniff it.
人们不仅会把手放到鼻子前，还会闻一闻。
So, and this is perfectly timed.
所以，这是完美的时机。
They go like this, okay?
他们就这样走，好吗？
So they're sniffing their hand.
所以他们会闻自己的手。
And in an additional control study, we manipulated it.
在另一项对照研究中，我们对其进行了操纵。
So we built this little James Bond thing of a watch on the experimenter's hand that could emit an odor.
所以我们在实验者的手上制作了一块詹姆斯·邦德的小手表，它可以散发出气味。
And the experimenter didn't know what odor they were emitting, and they could emit either a pleasant or an unpleasant odor, and we could drive the self-sampling afterwards up or down.
实验者不知道它们发出的是什么气味，它们可以发出令人愉悦的气味，也可以发出令人不快的气味，然后我们可以驱动自采样向上或向下。
So this was an olfactory behavior, no doubt about it.
所以毫无疑问这是一种嗅觉行为。
We're quite confident that-
我们非常有信心——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So people, in that case, people must have been sensing the odor on their own hand because they had shook the hand of the experimenter, pleasant odor, and they're more frequently bringing that hand to their nose versus unpleasant odor that had been introduced to their own hand by the experimenter.
因此，在这种情况下，人们一定会感觉到自己手上的气味，因为他们握过实验者的手，令人愉快的气味，并且他们更频繁地把手放在鼻子上，而不是实验者引入到自己手上的难闻气味。
Correct?
对吗？
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
No, I think they were sensing the ambient odor that came in with the hand that shook, and then that either drove them to sniff their hand more or less.
不，我认为他们感受到了手颤抖时传来的周围气味，然后这要么驱使他们或多或少地闻自己的手。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The odor cloud-
臭气云——
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
And-
还有——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
of the experimenter.
实验者的。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
And there's an interesting thing going on here too, because people didn't only smell the hand that shook, they also smelled the other hand.
这里也发生了一件有趣的事情，因为人们不仅闻到了握手的手，还闻到了另一只手。
And we think that there's something going on here comparing self to other, and we think a lot of self-sampling might reflect that.
我们认为这里发生了一些将自我与他人进行比较的事情，我们认为大量的自我抽样可能反映了这一点。
There's, on the same line, and again, to link to your childhood story of identifying your friends by smell, a study we published just last year by Inbal Ravrebi in our lab, where Inbal came with this basic interest in this phenomenon that's loosely referred to as click friendships.
同样，还有一个与你童年时通过气味识别朋友的故事联系起来的内容，去年我们实验室的 Inbal Ravrebi 发表了一项研究，Inbal 对这种被笼统地称为“点击友谊”的现象产生了基本的兴趣。
So people you meet, and you click right away, right?
所以你遇到的人，你会立即点击，对吗？
You immediately become close friends.
你们立即成为亲密的朋友。
And this is a phenomenon that is poorly described in literature as an entity, and yet anybody will tell you they know what you're talking about, right?
这种现象在文献中很少被描述为一个实体，但任何人都会告诉你他们知道你在说什么，对吧？
If somebody you click with right away, you become intimate within five minutes, right?
如果你立即与某个人产生好感，那么你们会在五分钟内变得亲密，对吗？
Everybody experienced this in their life, to some extent.
每个人在生活中都或多或少地经历过这一点。
And the question is, what was there, right?
问题是，那里有什么，对吗？
What was it?
那是什么？
Was it because you look the same?
是因为你们长得一样吗？
Could be.
可能是。
Was it because you had the same sports team that you liked, or is there something deeper here?
是因为你们有自己喜欢的同一个运动队，还是有更深层次的原因？
And Inbal's theory was that a similarity in body odor may contribute to this, that people who smell the same will click in some way.
英巴尔的理论是，体味的相似性可能会导致这种情况，气味相同的人会以某种方式产生共鸣。
And so to address that, she actually recruited click friends from all over Israel.
为了解决这个问题，她实际上招募了来自以色列各地的点击好友。
She posted all over social media to identify pairs of friends.
她在社交媒体上发帖以识别朋友。
So these are same-sex, non-romantic dyads.
所以这些是同性、非浪漫的情侣。
So these are friends, men and women, whose friendship started as a click, where here this becomes sensitive because it has to be a mutual click, right?
所以这些都是朋友，男人和女人，他们的友谊始于一次点击，在这里这变得敏感，因为它必须是相互点击，对吗？
Later on, we discovered there could be one-sided clicks.
后来我们发现可能存在单向点击的情况。
So somebody's sure they clicked with somebody else, but the other person-
所以有人确信他们和别人合得来，但是另一个人——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There's a name for that in neurology that our common friend, the late Ben Barres, taught me, which is there's a phrase that neurologists use-
我们共同的朋友，已故的本·巴雷斯（Ben Barres）教我，在神经学中有一个名字，就是神经学家使用的一个短语——
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Okay
好的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
called sticky.
称为粘性。
These are people that come up to you and-
这些人会来找你并且-
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
start asking you questions and then won't leave you alone.
开始问你问题，然后就不会让你孤单。
They're so-called sticky people.
他们就是所谓的粘人。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And if you ask these sticky people, sticky in air quotes because they're not physically sticky-
如果你问这些有粘性的人，他们在空气中具有粘性，因为他们在物理上没有粘性-
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
They may be
他们可能是
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They could be.
他们可能是。
"What do you think of this person?" They'll say, "Oh, they're great.
“你觉得这个人怎么样？”他们会说：“哦，他们太棒了。
We're really good friends." And so they've made a unilateral clique friendship.
我们真是好朋友。”就这样，他们结下了单方面的拉帮结派的友谊。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And yes, neurologists are talking about you.
是的，神经科医生正在谈论你。
If you're one of these people, neurologists are talking about you.
如果您是这些人中的一员，神经科医生正在谈论您。
There's an informal diagnostic code, sticky.
有一个非正式的诊断代码，粘一下。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
So she recruited clique friends, and then she sampled their body odor.
所以她招募了一些小圈子的朋友，然后她采样了他们的体味。
And we have a protocol for this.
我们为此制定了协议。
So they're given an odorless shampoo and soap to use for three weeks or something, and then they sleep two nights in this T-shirt where they have to sleep alone, and then we extract the body odor from the T-shirt.
因此，他们会使用无味洗发水和肥皂，使用三周左右，然后他们穿着这件 T 恤睡两个晚上，他们必须独自睡觉，然后我们从 T 恤中提取体味。
And so we have a method to extract body odor.
所以我们有一种提取体味的方法。
And then she first asked whether indeed clique friends are more similar in their body odor than you would expect by chance.
然后她首先问，小圈子里的朋友的体味是否确实比你偶然想象的更相似。
And she first tested this with a device, a machine we call an electronic nose.
她首先用一种设备（我们称之为电子鼻的机器）对此进行了测试。
So an electronic nose is sort of a very poor effort to mimic what the mammalian nose does.
因此，电子鼻在模仿哺乳动物鼻子的功能方面效果非常差。
Basically, it's a bunch of sensors that respond to airborne molecules, in this case, sensors referred to as MOxSors, as metal oxide-covered sensors.
基本上，它是一组对空气分子做出响应的传感器，在这种情况下，传感器被称为 MOxSors，即金属氧化物覆盖的传感器。
And so she used an electronic nose to sample these body odors, and she found that clique friends are indeed more similar to each other than you would expect by chance, by random dyads.
于是她用电子鼻对这些体味进行了采样，她发现小圈子里的朋友之间确实比你想象的更相似，是随机的。
And this was a significant difference.
这是一个显着的差异。
And after she found that a device could do this, she had other participants do this.
当她发现一个设备可以做到这一点后，她让其他参与者也这样做了。
So she had people smelling the clique friends versus non-clique friends, and they judged them as being more similar to each other than not.
所以她让人们闻出小圈子朋友和非小圈子朋友的气味，他们认为他们彼此更相似。
Now again, you might wonder, is this causal or not, right?
现在，您可能会想，这到底是不是因果关系，对吧？
Because maybe clique friends go to the same restaurant together all the time or whatever, or live in the same neighborhood, and that's why they smell the same.
因为也许拉帮结派的朋友总是一起去同一家餐厅或者其他什么，或者住在同一个社区，这就是为什么他们闻起来都一样。
So to address causality, she recruited total strangers, and first smelled them with the electronic nose, and then engaged them in a social interaction, something called the mirror game.
因此，为了解决因果关系，她招募了完全陌生的人，首先用电子鼻闻他们的气味，然后让他们进行社交互动，这就是所谓的镜子游戏。
So in the mirror game, one person moves their hands, and the other person is really close to them, like right here, so they can smell each other, and has to move their hands with the other person.
所以在镜子游戏中，一个人移动他们的手，而另一个人离他们很近，就像在这里，所以他们可以互相闻到对方的味道，并且必须与另一个人一起移动他们的手。
And one prediction there panned out, but another didn't.
其中一项预测得到了证实，但另一项则没有。
The one that didn't, so she predicted that people who would smell more similar to each other would be better at the mirror game.
但事实并非如此，所以她预测，闻起来更相似的人会更擅长镜子游戏。
That is, they would follow each other better.
也就是说，他们会更好地跟随对方。
That did not pan out.
但这并没有成功。
However, the interaction was completely non-verbal.
然而，互动完全是非语言的。
They were not allowed to speak with each other, and she did an entire round robin, so everybody played with everybody else.
他们不允许互相说话，她进行了整个循环赛，所以每个人都和其他人一起玩。
This was an insane experiment to run.
这是一个疯狂的实验。
And she then, at the end of the experiment, each person rated each other person as to how much they think they would want to be their friends, and also on a bunch of ratings, how nice they think they are, how affectionate they think.
然后，在实验结束时，每个人都会对彼此进行评分，看看他们有多想成为他们的朋友，并且还根据一系列评分，他们认为自己有多好，他们认为自己有多深情。
A bunch of ratings, okay?
一堆评分，好吗？
All of this was predicted by the electronic nose.
这一切都被电子鼻预测到了。
So people who smell more similar to each other think that the other person is more likely to be their friend, is more likely to be a nice person, et cetera.
因此，彼此闻起来更相似的人会认为对方更有可能成为他们的朋友，更有可能是一个好人，等等。
So we could actually predict friendship using the electronic nose.
所以我们实际上可以使用电子鼻来预测友谊。
So this is not a result of friendship.
所以这不是友谊的结果。
It plays into the causal elements of building friendship.
它发挥了建立友谊的因果因素的作用。
So this is to relate to your childhood story.
所以这与你童年的故事有关。
There's something going on here.
这里发生了一些事情。
We're constantly smelling ourselves, constantly.
我们不断地闻自己的气味。
Constantly.
不断地。
The reason I'm smiling, and your viewers or listeners will understand why I'm smiling, I'll send you a video to link into your podcast here.
我微笑的原因，您的观众或听众会理解我微笑的原因，我将向您发送一个视频，链接到您的播客。
The fact that people constantly sniff themselves, we thought of calling this the Low effect.
事实上，人们不断地嗅自己，我们想把这称为“低效应”。
So in America, this won't pass effectively, but in the rest of the normal world, Joachim Low is the national soccer coach of the German soccer team.
所以在美国，这不会有效地通过，但在正常世界的其他地方，约阿希姆·勒夫是德国足球队的国家足球教练。
So, I don't know who would be a very famous coach here, but Steve Kerr.
所以，我不知道谁会是这里非常著名的教练，但史蒂夫·科尔。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Good choice.
不错的选择。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
This is a super, super famous name all around the world where soccer is the primary sport that people watch.
这是一个在全世界超级、超级知名的名字，足球是人们观看的主要运动。
And once people will see this video, they'll understand why we thought of calling this the Low effect.
一旦人们看到这个视频，他们就会明白为什么我们想到将其称为低效应。
It's very graphic.
非常形象化。
But people are constantly smelling themselves.
但人们不断地闻自己的气味。
They're smelling themselves with their hands.
他们用手闻自己的气味。
They're smelling themselves explicitly.
他们明显地在闻自己的气味。
People are constantly smelling themselves, constantly smelling others.
人们不断地闻自己的气味，不断地闻别人的气味。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I find this topic so interesting.
我觉得这个话题很有趣。
And first of all, confession, I definitely smell myself multiple times per day.
首先，坦白说，我每天都会多次闻自己的味道。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Everybody does.
每个人都这样做。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay, good.
好的，很好。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, then I would do it anyway.
好吧，那我无论如何都会这么做。
I think I, like most people, I either find my own smell to be neutral to pleasant, right?
我想我和大多数人一样，要么觉得自己的气味是中性的，要么是令人愉悦的，对吗？
Occasionally I'll be like, "Whoa, I need to take a shower." As long as we're talking about smelling oneself and friendship, kinship, and its relationship to smell, we have to talk about the relationship between smell and romantic attraction and bond.
有时我会说：“哇，我需要洗澡。”只要我们谈论气味与友谊、亲情以及气味的关系，我们就必须谈论气味与浪漫的吸引力和纽带之间的关系。
So my understanding is that if, for instance, a mouse is given the option to mate with any number of other different mice, they will bias their choice toward the mouse that has the immune composition, the so-called MHC-
所以我的理解是，例如，如果一只小鼠可以选择与任意数量的其他不同小鼠交配，它们会偏向于具有免疫成分的小鼠，即所谓的 MHC-
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
MHC
主要组织相容性复合体
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
major histocompatibility complex-
主要组织相容性复合体
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
which reflects immune diversity, the immune system that is most distant from theirs.
这反映了免疫多样性，即距离他们的免疫系统最远的免疫系统。
The evolutionary argument being that were they to produce offspring, that the array of immune genes would be much broader than if they were to select an animal very close to them.
进化论的论点是，如果它们繁衍后代，那么免疫基因的范围将比它们选择与它们非常接近的动物要广泛得多。
And in addition to that, that one of the most strongly selected against behaviors, not just culturally, but at the level of eliciting a sense of disgust maybe even from the activity of the hypothalamus, is mating with very close kin, AKA incest, because that, we know, produces a higher rate of mutations.
除此之外，最强烈选择的反对行为之一，不仅在文化上，而且在引发厌恶感的水平上，甚至可能来自下丘脑的活动，就是与非常近的亲属交配，又名乱伦，因为我们知道，这会产生更高的突变率。
In other words, whereas you described the relationship between smell and choice of friends as you choose people who smell more like you, my understanding is that in the context of choosing romantic partners or sexual partners or both, that you choose the person whose odor, and therefore immune composition, is most different.
换句话说，虽然你描述了气味和选择朋友之间的关系，因为你选择了闻起来更像你的人，但我的理解是，在选择浪漫伴侣或性伴侣或两者的背景下，你选择的人的气味和免疫成分最不同。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Right.
对。
So the way you describe the animal literature is correct, and there's evidence to similar mechanisms in humans.
所以你描述动物文献的方式是正确的，并且有证据表明人类也有类似的机制。
Our lab has not worked directly on this issue of romantic selection based on odor.
我们的实验室还没有直接研究基于气味的浪漫选择问题。
There's a bunch of papers, Wedekind et al.
Wedekind 等人有很多论文。
and the Wedekind lab, and also Porter, I'll email these to you later on, that have done a lot of this work and find exactly as you say that romantic odor preferences in humans are influenced by body odor, and that this is linked to MHC, histocompatibility complex makeup of the portion of our genome that shapes our immune system to some extent.
还有 Wedekind 实验室，还有 Porter，我稍后会通过电子邮件将这些信息发送给您，他们已经做了很多这样的工作，并发现正如您所说，人类的浪漫气味偏好受到体味的影响，并且这与 MHC 相关，MHC 是我们基因组部分的组织相容性复合体组成，在某种程度上塑造了我们的免疫系统。
So this effect has been studied and reported on, again, extensively in mice and also in humans.
因此，这种效应已经在小鼠和人类中进行了广泛的研究和报道。
Not work that we've done.
不是我们已经完成的工作。
The one sort of tangent work we've done, and I'd like to maybe tell you about, it relates to an effect that is one of the most remarkable effects in mammalian social chemosignaling.
我们所做的一种切线工作，我想也许告诉你，它与哺乳动物社会化学信号传导中最显着的效应之一有关。
So it's not related to romanticism in any way, but it's related to reproduction.
所以它与浪漫主义没有任何关系，但它与繁殖有关。
And indeed, in our lab, we've not looked at romanticism, we have looked at, or are looking at reproduction.
事实上，在我们的实验室里，我们没有研究过浪漫主义，我们已经研究过或正在研究繁殖。
They're not always the same.
它们并不总是一样的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Certainly.
当然。
But they can.
但他们可以。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
They can.
他们可以。
Animal mammalian or terrestrial mammalian reproductive behavior is dominated by the sense of smell in mammals.
动物哺乳动物或陆生哺乳动物的繁殖行为是由哺乳动物的嗅觉主导的。
And here, remember initially when we started off, I noted that there are several subsystems in our nose that transduce odorants, and so primarily the main olfactory system, which is cranial nerve number one, and the trigeminal nerve, which is cranial nerve number five.
在这里，请记住我们刚开始时，我注意到我们的鼻子中有几个子系统可以传递气味，因此主要是主嗅觉系统（第一脑神经）和三叉神经（第五脑神经）。
Most terrestrial mammals have another subsystem referred to as the secondary olfactory system that has a separate sense organ in the nose.
大多数陆生哺乳动物都有另一个子系统，称为次级嗅觉系统，其鼻子中有一个单独的感觉器官。
This organ is known as the vomeronasal organ.
这个器官被称为犁鼻器。
It's a small pit in the nasal passage of most terrestrial mammals.
它是大多数陆生哺乳动物鼻道中的一个小坑。
Sometimes it's described as a communicating pit because sometimes it connects the nasal passage to the roof of the mouth.
有时它被描述为连通坑，因为有时它将鼻道连接到口腔顶部。
Sometimes it connects both.
有时它连接两者。
And so there's this sense organ with its specific receptor subtypes, VNRs, vomeronasal receptors, and this is linked to a sort of separate portion of the olfactory bulb, not really the main olfactory bulb, but it's referred to as the accessory olfactory bulb.
因此，这个感觉器官有其特定的受体亚型，VNR，犁鼻受体，它与嗅球的一种单独部分相关，并不是真正的主嗅球，但它被称为辅助嗅球。
And from there directly to the limbic system, to the portions of the brain that control reproductive behavior and aggressive behavior.
从那里直接到达边缘系统，到达控制生殖行为和攻击行为的大脑部分。
And in most terrestrial mammals, this subsystem processes odorants that are sometimes referred to as pheromones, although that's in many ways a problematic term.
在大多数陆生哺乳动物中，这个子系统处理的气味剂有时被称为信息素，尽管这在很多方面都是一个有问题的术语。
But odorants that are referred to as pheromones, namely odorants that are emitted by another member of the species to influence that member of the species and alter behavior or hormonal state.
但是，被称为信息素的气味剂，即由该物种的另一个成员发出的气味剂，以影响该物种的该成员并改变行为或荷尔蒙状态。
And some of these pheromonal effects are utterly remarkable, and in my view, the most remarkable of all is an effect known as the Bruce effect.
其中一些信息素效应是非常显着的，在我看来，最显着的是一种被称为布鲁斯效应的效应。
This was an effect discovered by Margaret Bruce in 1959.
这是玛格丽特·布鲁斯 (Margaret Bruce) 于 1959 年发现的效应。
She was a British scientist.
她是一位英国科学家。
And in the Bruce effect, when you expose a pregnant mouse at an early critical stage of the pregnancy, I think up to about day three, if you expose the pregnant mouse to the odor of what is referred to in technical terms as the non-stud male, that is a male who did not father the pregnancy, she will miscarry the pregnancy.
在布鲁斯效应中，当你在怀孕的早期关键阶段将怀孕的老鼠暴露在外时，我认为直到第三天，如果你将怀孕的老鼠暴露在技术术语中称为非种公的气味中，即没有怀孕的父亲的雄性，她就会流产。
She will abort it.
她会中止它。
Now, that's an insane decision made by the female here, right?
现在，这是女性做出的一个疯狂的决定，对吗？
Because she's invested quite a lot in this, right, in biological terms, in forming this pregnancy and maintaining it, and yet she drops it on the basis of an odor.
因为她在这方面投入了很多，从生物学角度来说，为了形成这次怀孕并维持它，但她却因为气味而放弃了它。
And this effect is remarkably robust.
而且这种效果非常强劲。
And what do I mean by remarkably robust?
我所说的“非常稳健”是什么意思？
So this will occur on about 80% of exposures.
所以大约 80% 的暴露会发生这种情况。
Now, as you know, 80% is 100% in biology, right?
现在，如你所知，80% 在生物学中就是 100%，对吗？
There's nothing that happens at more than 80%.
超过80%就不会发生任何事情。
So it's a remarkably robust effect, this dropping of the pregnancy.
因此，怀孕率的下降是一个非常强大的效应。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And we know it's mediated by chemosensation through the nose.
我们知道它是通过鼻子的化学感觉介导的。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
We know for sure, and we know in the following way.
我们肯定知道，并且我们通过以下方式知道。
So first, it's enough to just bring the odor of the non-stud male.
所以首先，只要带上非种公马的气味就足够了。
You don't have to bring the male himself, right?
你不用带男人本人来吧？
So you just can bring bedding from a non-stud male, and that will induce the Bruce effect.
所以你可以从非种公马那里带来床上用品，这会引发布鲁斯效应。
But of course, the most telling set of experiments is that if in the female mouse you ablate the vomeronasal organ, you just burn this tiny structure in the nose, then the effect disappears.
但当然，最有说服力的一组实验是，如果在雌性小鼠中切除犁鼻器，您只需烧毁鼻子中的这个微小结构，那么效果就会消失。
So the effect is completely dependent on the vomeronasal organ.
所以效果完全取决于犁鼻器官。
And I find this utterly a remarkable effect.
我发现这绝对是一个显着的效果。
Again, because of the extent of cost that the female takes on here based on this information and smell.
同样，因为雌性根据这些信息和气味在这里承担的成本程度。
Now, humans, the going notion in olfaction is that humans don't have a functional vomeronasal organ.
现在，人类在嗅觉方面的流行观念是，人类没有功能性的犁鼻器官。
So we don't have that functional organ in our nose.
所以我们的鼻子里没有这个功能器官。
Now, I'll point out, we actually do have the pit.
现在，我要指出的是，我们确实有坑。
So the structure or the outlining structure is there, but the pit that we have is considered vestigial and non-functional.
因此，结构或轮廓结构是存在的，但我们所拥有的坑被认为是残留的且无功能的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And what about this thing I learned about at Berkeley, in Integrative Biology class, that we have something called Jacobson's organ?
我在伯克利分校的综合生物学课上了解到，我们有一种叫做雅各布森器官的东西，那又怎么样呢？
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
This is the same organ.
这是同一个器官。
So Jacobson organ is the vomeronasal organ.
所以雅各布森器官就是犁鼻器官。
It's also called Jacobson because I think Jacobson was a military physician in the 1800s in Holland or something, and he found it in a soldier he was operating on or something like that.
它也被称为雅各布森，因为我认为雅各布森是 1800 年代荷兰的一名军医或其他什么地方，他在他正在做手术的士兵或类似的东西身上发现了它。
The story comes from something like that.
故事就是源于这样的事情。
But Jacobson organ is another name for the vomeronasal organ.
但雅各布森器官是犁鼻器官的另一个名称。
These are one and the same.
这些是一回事。
The sensory organ of the accessory olfactory system.
辅助嗅觉系统的感觉器官。
And again, the going notion is that the human Jacobson organ or vomeronasal organ is vestigial.
再说一遍，人们普遍认为人类的雅各布森器官或犁鼻器官已经退化。
It's non-functional.
它不起作用。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Does that necessarily mean that we don't have these pheromone effects?
这是否一定意味着我们没有这些信息素效应？
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
No, it does not.
不，事实并非如此。
So first of all, we know that lots of what are considered pheromonal effects, namely social chemosignaling in rodents, are mediated by the main olfactory system.
首先，我们知道许多被认为是信息素效应的东西，即啮齿动物的社会化学信号，是由主要嗅觉系统介导的。
We know that for sure.
我们肯定知道这一点。
There are several examples for this in mice and rats and rabbits and so on and so forth.
在小鼠、大鼠和兔子等身上有几个这样的例子。
So A, these can be mediated by the main olfactory system, and I'll come back to that in a second.
所以，A，这些可以由主要嗅觉系统介导，我稍后会回到这个问题。
But first, to finish the Bruce effect.
但首先，要完成布鲁斯效应。
And second, and I'm going out on a limb here, but I'm willing to take that risk.
其次，我在这里冒险，但我愿意冒这个风险。
For me, the jury is still out on human vomeronasal organ.
对我来说，人类犁鼻器官的问题还没有定论。
The decision or the notion that it's non-functional relies on about one and a half papers postmortem, looking for the nerve that connects this thing to the brain and failing to find it, using staining and so on and so forth.
它无功能的决定或概念依赖于大约一篇半论文的尸检，寻找将这个东西连接到大脑的神经，但未能找到它，使用染色等等。
But staining postmortem studies in humans are notoriously complicated.
但人类尸检染色研究是出了名的复杂。
Basically, for many reasons, one of them is that the material has gone through...
基本上，由于多种原因，其中之一是材料已经经过......
It's not ideally set as it is when you sacrifice an animal and study its tissue.
当您牺牲动物并研究其组织时，它的设置并不理想。
So based on really a paucity of studies that fail to find this nerve, the notion is that the structure is vestigial in humans.
因此，基于很少的研究未能找到这种神经，人们认为这种结构在人类身上是退化的。
I don't have any evidence that it's functional, mind you, but I'm just not sure that it's not.
请注意，我没有任何证据表明它有效，但我只是不确定它是否有效。
But what we do have a suspicion is that humans may experience something similar to Bruce effect.
但我们确实怀疑人类可能会经历类似于布鲁斯效应的情况。
So first of all, humans have an enormous number or ratio of spontaneous miscarriage.
首先，人类的自然流产数量或比例很高。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Are they occurring more often in the first trimester?
它们在妊娠前三个月发生得更频繁吗？
Because you mentioned-
因为你提到——
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that in the Bruce effect in the mice is in the first three days or so following pregnancy-
小鼠的布鲁斯效应是在怀孕后的前三天左右-
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
which in the mouse gestation, as I recall, is about 21 days in the mouse.
我记得，小鼠的妊娠期约为 21 天。
So you're talking about one-seventh of total gestation, so I'm-
所以你说的是总妊娠的七分之一，所以我-
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I'm not quick enough to, nor is it important to translate, but this will be first trimester in humans.
我的速度不够快，翻译也不重要，但这将是人类的前三个月。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Yes.
是的。
Which is indeed-
这确实是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Early first trimester
早期妊娠
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
...
...
when most miscarriage occurs.
大多数流产发生在此时。
Now, humans have, again, a huge number of miscarriages, and the numbers, I'll soon share them with you.
现在，人类再次发生了大量的流产，我很快就会与你们分享这些数字。
They sound odd, and the reason they sound odd is because if you have what's sometimes simply referred to as failed implantation, this can occur in days one, two.
它们听起来很奇怪，而它们听起来很奇怪的原因是，如果您遇到有时简单地称为植入失败的情况，这可能会在第一天、第二天发生。
Nobody ever knows, okay?
没人知道，好吗？
So some papers talk about 90% of all human pregnancies end in miscarriage.
因此一些论文称 90% 的人类怀孕都以流产告终。
This is counting a failed implantation in day one, two, et cetera.
这是计算第一天、第二天等的失败植入。
More conservative studies talk about 50%.
更保守的研究谈论的是 50%。
Nobody will argue 30%.
没有人会争论30%。
Okay?
好的？
So a huge number of human pregnancies end in miscarriage.
因此，大量人类怀孕以流产告终。
Now, out of these, there's a portion that are unexplained.
现在，其中有一部分无法解释。
So nobody knows why.
所以没有人知道为什么。
There are a portion that are explained by all sorts of genetic factors, developmental factors, and so on and so forth.
有一部分是由各种遗传因素、发育因素等等来解释的。
But there's also a proportion that are unexplained.
但还有一部分是无法解释的。
And so all I'm saying is that there's a statistical backdrop or setting, if you will, for something like a remnant Bruce effect in humans.
所以我要说的是，如果你愿意的话，存在一个统计背景或环境，就像人类中残留的布鲁斯效应一样。
Now, with that in mind, we enlisted a group of, they're not really patients and participants in a study of people who, or couples who are experiencing what is referred to as unexplained repeated pregnancy loss.
现在，考虑到这一点，我们招募了一群人，他们并不是真正的患者和参与者，参加了一项针对正在经历所谓的不明原因反复流产的人或夫妇的研究。
So formally, if you have two consecutive unexplained miscarriages, then that is sufficient for the diagnosis of unexplained repeated pregnancy loss.
所以正式来说，如果您连续两次不明原因流产，那么就足以诊断不明原因反复流产。
However, in our cohort of 30, we had couples who experienced 12 consecutive unexplained repeated pregnancy losses.
然而，在我们的 30 人队列中，有些夫妇经历了连续 12 次不明原因的反复流产。
So the two is just the formal.
所以两者只是形式上的。
All of our cohort was like 12, five.
我们这群人大概有 12 岁、5 岁。
So this is an emotional, difficult place to be.
所以这是一个情绪化、困难的地方。
And these are couples who are losing their pregnancy for no apparent reason.
这些夫妇无缘无故地失去了怀孕。
So they've gone through all the tests that you can imagine of genetic incompatibilities and all sorts of issues, clotting, all the known suspects for pregnancy loss.
因此，他们已经完成了所有你能想象到的测试，包括遗传不相容性和各种问题，凝血，所有已知的流产嫌疑。
And the medical establishment remains totally at a loss as to why these pregnancies aren't holding.
医疗机构仍然完全不明白为什么这些怀孕不成功。
And so we hypothesized that perhaps here there's something akin to a Bruce-type effect.
因此我们假设这里可能存在类似于布鲁斯型效应的东西。
Obviously, it's not going to be the same as in mice, but something like a Bruce effect.
显然，这不会与老鼠身上的情况相同，而是类似于布鲁斯效应。
Now, of course, at that stage, we could not do anything causal to test this, right?
当然，在那个阶段，我们无法做任何因果性的事情来测试这一点，对吧？
But what we could do is to seek circumstantial evidence to see if where there's fire, maybe there's smoke.
但我们能做的就是寻求间接证据，看看有火的地方是否可能有烟。
And what we did was we tested olfaction, and more specifically, the response to male body odor in the couples experiencing repeated pregnancy loss.
我们所做的是测试嗅觉，更具体地说，测试经历反复流产的夫妇对男性体味的反应。
And we found a few things.
我们发现了一些事情。
First of all, if you think of the mechanisms behind the Bruce effect, the Bruce effect implies that the female has to have a very clear memory of the fathering male, because if she's going to miscarry in response to the non-father, she has to know father, non-father.
首先，如果你考虑布鲁斯效应背后的机制，布鲁斯效应意味着女性必须对父亲有非常清晰的记忆，因为如果她要因非父亲而流产，她必须了解父亲，非父亲。
That means that there's a pronounced olfactory memory at the moment of mating.
这意味着交配时有明显的嗅觉记忆。
Okay?
好的？
And in mice, this has been very well-characterized and attributed to the anterior olfactory nucleus, a structure in the brain.
在小鼠中，这一现象已得到很好的表征，并将其归因于前嗅核（大脑中的一种结构）。
But you'd have to have this memory in order to make that decision.
但你必须有这样的记忆才能做出决定。
Now, so to address that, and here you're going to see that you and your childhood story from before stand out a bit as skillful, is that the first thing we did was just behaviorally test whether these women and control women could identify the smell of their spouse.
现在，为了解决这个问题，在这里你会看到你和你之前的童年故事同样有技巧，我们做的第一件事就是在行为上测试这些女性和控制女性是否能够识别她们配偶的气味。
And you might be disappointed, or we would all are probably a bit disappointed to learn that control women are very poor at this.
你可能会感到失望，或者我们都可能会有点失望地得知，控制欲强的女性在这方面很差。
So you would think that women would be good at identifying the body odor of their spouse.
所以你可能会认为女性很擅长识别配偶的体味。
They're not.
他们不是。
They're not far from chance.
他们离机会不远了。
However, the women who experience repeated pregnancy loss, they're double at their performance level.
然而，经历过多次流产的女性，她们的表现水平会翻倍。
So this is not a nuance effect.
所以这不是细微差别的影响。
Women who experience repeated pregnancy loss can identify their husbands' or their spouses' by their body odor.
多次流产的女性可以通过体味来识别她们的丈夫或配偶。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
With much greater acuity than the typical person?
比一般人有更高的敏锐度？
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Double.
双。
A bit more than double, and way above chance.
多了一倍多一点，远远高于偶然性。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
No, sorry, I posed it as a question, but I meant yes, with much greater acuity, and double is-
不，抱歉，我把它作为一个问题提出，但我的意思是“是”，而且更加敏锐，而双重是——
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
a significant improvement.
一个显着的改进。
Are they much better at detecting any odor?
他们在检测气味方面做得更好吗？
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
No, they're not.
不，他们不是。
We did the controls, and they're not.
我们进行了控制，但他们没有。
And then, using fMRI, we measured their brain response to stranger male body odor.
然后，我们使用功能磁共振成像测量了他们的大脑对陌生人男性体味的反应。
And this was quite remarkable because we approached-- So this was a full brain analysis.
这是非常了不起的，因为我们接近——所以这是一次完整的大脑分析。
So without a region of interest analysis, so it's not as if you're tweaking your statistics to look at one part of the brain.
因此，如果没有感兴趣区域分析，那么您就不会调整统计数据来观察大脑的某一部分。
You're just looking at the entire brain in the response to male body odor and asking de novo, "Is there a difference between these two groups of participants?" And there was one huge difference, and it was in the hypothalamus.
你只需观察整个大脑对男性体味的反应，然后从头开始问：“这两组参与者之间有区别吗？”其中有一个巨大的差异，那就是下丘脑。
And so there was a difference in response to stranger male body odor between the two groups.
因此，两组之间对陌生人男性体味的反应存在差异。
So olfaction is altered in repeated spontaneous pregnancy loss.
因此，反复自然流产时嗅觉会发生改变。
We don't know this is causal, right?
我们不知道这是因果关系，对吗？
But that was enough for us to approach the ethics committee to run a causal experiment, and we're at the beginning of that now.
但这足以让我们联系伦理委员会进行因果实验，而我们现在才刚刚开始。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Incredible.
难以置信。
I can't wait to hear the results of that experiment.
我迫不及待地想听到那个实验的结果。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
It'll probably take years.
这可能需要几年的时间。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
A few.
有几个。
Because these are slow experiments to run.
因为这些实验运行起来很慢。
Recruitment is complicated.
招聘很复杂。
But basically, we're blocking smell in couples who are trying to maintain a pregnancy.
但基本上，我们正在阻止试图维持怀孕的夫妇的气味。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I want to touch on some other so-called pheromone effects.
我想谈谈其他一些所谓的信息素效应。
And one thing I heard you say during a talk, which I think really captures this whole issue of are there pheromone effects in humans very nicely is you said, whether or not it's a classic pheromone effect or whether or not it's olfaction or something else, this is chemosensory signaling-
我在一次演讲中听到你说的一件事，我认为这很好地抓住了人类是否存在信息素效应的整个问题，你说，无论它是不是经典的信息素效应，也无论是嗅觉还是其他什么，这就是化学感应信号——
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
between individuals.
个体之间。
The reason this is important to me is a few years ago, I did a social media post about pheromone effects in animals and some potential pheromone effects in humans.
这对我来说很重要的原因是几年前，我在社交媒体上发表了一篇关于动物信息素效应和人类一些潜在信息素效应的帖子。
And a couple of the human olfactionistas, more from actually who work on animal models, really came after me with intense sniffing, saying there is no evidence for human pheromone effects, human pheromone organs, and I think today you've beautifully illustrated how, regardless of the answer to that, humans are contained or are emitting chemical signals that influence each other's physiology and behavior.
一些人类嗅觉专家，更多地来自于动物模型研究人员，他们真的用强烈的嗅觉来追随我，说没有证据表明人类信息素效应，人类信息素器官，我想今天你已经很好地说明了，无论答案如何，人类是如何被遏制或正在发出影响彼此生理和行为的化学信号的。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
For sure.
当然。
For sure.
一定。
And the term pheromone is a problematic term in any case.
无论如何，信息素这个术语都是一个有问题的术语。
The term was put forth to describe insect behavior.
该术语是为了描述昆虫的行为而提出的。
Right?
正确的？
So, if you were given a hard time by the mouse people, you could've given them an equally hard time if you were an insect person.
所以，如果你被老鼠人为难了，那么如果你是昆虫人，你也会给他们同样的困难。
Right?
正确的？
Because really, the place the term is accurate is, so the first pheromone that was discovered was Bambiclol, which is the pheromone that has the male moth follow the scent trail of the female moth.
因为实际上，这个术语准确的地方是，所以第一个被发现的信息素是班比克洛，它是一种让雄蛾跟踪雌蛾气味踪迹的信息素。
Bambiclol is a pheromone.
班比克洛是一种信息素。
Insect pheromone people will argue that this stuff that people talk about in mice and rats is not pheromones.
研究昆虫信息素的人会争辩说，人们在老鼠身上谈论的这种东西不是信息素。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I see.
我明白了。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
And it all becomes semantics, right?
这一切都变成了语义，对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, sort of like nerdy inside ball.
是的，有点像书呆子内球。
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
It's all semantics.
这都是语义。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
So in our publications, we don't use the term pheromone, because it would not help me, and it would probably only hurt us.
因此，在我们的出版物中，我们不使用信息素这个术语，因为它对我没有帮助，而且可能只会伤害我们。
And so, we talk about chemosignals.
因此，我们谈论化学信号。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
And humans definitely emit chemosignals from their body, and these chemosignals influence other humans and influence their behavior.
人类肯定会从体内发出化学信号，这些化学信号会影响其他人类并影响他们的行为。
And there are several examples of this.
有几个这样的例子。
One of them I'll point out first, which is sort of the most widely studied and not mostly from our lab, actually.
我首先要指出其中一个，它是研究最广泛的，实际上大部分不是来自我们的实验室。
The flavor of the month for the past 10 years in this field is what's referred to as the smell of fear.
过去10年这个领域的每月味道就是所谓的恐惧气味。
Right?
正确的？
So, this is probably true of many mammals and humans.
因此，这对于许多哺乳动物和人类来说可能都是如此。
It's true of we emit a specific body odor when we're in a state of fear.
当我们处于恐惧状态时，我们确实会散发出特定的体味。
This was first discovered in humans by Denise Chen out of, I think, Brown.
我认为这是由丹尼斯·陈（Denise Chen）在人类中首次发现的，是布朗的。
I'm not sure.
我不知道。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think that's right.
我认为这是对的。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Yep.
是的。
Humans emit a particular body odor when they're in a state of fear, and this body odor influences other humans, in effect, increasing their autonomic arousal, their sympathetic state.
人类在处于恐惧状态时会散发出一种特殊的体味，这种体味会影响其他人，实际上会增加他们的自主神经兴奋和交感神经状态。
So in effect, you could say that fear is contagious a bit.
所以实际上，你可以说恐惧具有一定的传染性。
So the smell of fear is contagious.
所以恐惧的味道是会传染的。
By the way, culturally, we know for ages that dogs can smell fear in humans, but actually that was only really shown about a year and a half ago in a study.
顺便说一句，从文化上来说，我们很久以来就知道狗可以闻到人类的恐惧，但实际上这一点直到大约一年半前的一项研究才真正得到证实。
So it was always said, but it wasn't really shown effectively.
一直这么说，但并没有真正有效地表现出来。
It was shown about a year and a half ago in a study that dogs indeed can smell human fear.
大约一年半前的一项研究表明，狗确实可以闻到人类的恐惧。
And humans can smell human fear.
人类可以闻到人类的恐惧。
So several labs, starting from Denise Chen and Haveline Jones, and then in our lab and in other labs, if you collect body odor from people in a state of fear, and collect body odor from the same people when they're not in a state of fear, other people can determine which is the state of fear or not, and this influences their behavior.
所以几个实验室，从 Denise Chen 和 Haveline Jones 开始，然后在我们的实验室和其他实验室，如果你收集处于恐惧状态的人的体味，并收集同一个人不处于恐惧状态时的体味，其他人可以确定哪个是恐惧状态，哪个不是恐惧状态，这会影响他们的行为。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What about the smell of safety, or is that simply the absence of the odor corresponding to fear?
安全的气味又如何呢，或者只是没有与恐惧相对应的气味？
And the reason I ask this is-
我问这个的原因是——
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
somewhat woven into our prior discussion about mate choice.
在某种程度上融入了我们之前关于择偶的讨论。
Again, I'll ask the question in a form of brief anecdotes.
我再次以简短轶事的形式提出这个问题。
I'll use the I had a friend who approach here.
我将使用我有一个朋友来过这里。
But one phenomenon that has nothing to do with me in particular, I think this is a common phenomenon, is romantic partners leaving articles of clothing at each other's homes.
但有一个现象与我没有特别关系，我认为这是一种普遍现象，那就是情侣把衣物留在对方家里。
Now, this could have other purposes to mark territory.
现在，这可能还有其他目的来标记领土。
Visually marking territory, but also scent marking territory is very common in the animal kingdom.
在动物王国中，视觉标记领地和气味标记领地都很常见。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's not uncommon for romantic partners when one is traveling or away, for the other partner to smell their article of clothing in order to bring about positive connotations-
对于浪漫的伴侣来说，当一方旅行或外出时，另一方闻自己的衣服以带来积极的含义并不罕见——
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
of the other partner.
另一个伙伴的。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Very common behavior.
很常见的行为。
If you're doing this, folks, other people are doing this, too.
如果你这样做，伙计们，其他人也在这样做。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It raises questions, for instance, about whether or not the mourning period part post-breakup, whether by decision, by death, or by some other phenomenon that's forced the breakup, whether or not that mourning period has something to do with an olfactory unlearning of and mate selection, and on and on and on.
例如，它提出了一些问题，比如哀悼期是否是分手后的一部分，无论是由于决定、死亡还是其他一些迫使分手的现象，哀悼期是否与嗅觉遗忘和择偶有关，等等。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
With all these insights-
有了所有这些见解——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right
右
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
...
...
I would offer you to be a post-doc in my lab.
我愿意邀请你到我的实验室做博士后。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, I was going to say, listen, I have a sabbatical-
好吧，我想说，听着，我有一个休假-
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
But I know they've got to finish
但我知道他们必须完成
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
coming up, so I would love to do a sabbatical.
即将到来，所以我很想休假。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
But it's going to kill me, so I don't
但这会杀了我，所以我不这么做
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, exactly.
不，确切地说。
Exactly.
确切地。
You don't want me to work for you.
你不想让我为你工作。
We talked about this earlier.
我们之前谈过这个。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
That's what I'm saying.
这就是我所说的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
For other reasons.
由于其他原因。
Exactly.
确切地。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
That's the thing.
就是这样。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There's a story there.
那里有一个故事。
What Noam is referring to, I'll just tell people, because inside jokes on a podcast don't really work.
诺姆所指的内容，我只会告诉人们，因为播客上的内部笑话实际上不起作用。
Earlier, I was referring to the fact that I've had three incredible scientific mentors, undergraduate, graduate, and post-doc.
早些时候，我指的是我有三位令人难以置信的科学导师，本科生、研究生和博士后。
But for reasons that are unclear to me, the first one died of suicide, the second one cancer at 50, and the third one pancreatic cancer in his early 60s.
但由于我不清楚的原因，第一个死于自杀，第二个死于癌症，50 岁，第三个死于胰腺癌，60 岁出头。
And the last one before he died, who was an MD and a common friend of Noam's and I, turned to me and said, "Andrew, you're the common denominator." So-
他去世前的最后一位医生是一名医学博士，也是我和诺姆的共同朋友，他对我说：“安德鲁，你是我们的共同点。”所以——
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
the joke-
笑话-
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
I prefer not to-
我宁愿不-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The joke in my business is you don't want me to work for you.
我生意上的笑话是你不想让我为你工作。
So nonetheless, I would love to do a sabbatical in your lab.
尽管如此，我还是很想在你们的实验室度过一个休假。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
No. So what I was trying to say in that roundabout way is that those are all really keen observations and good ideas, for sure.
不。所以我想以这种迂回的方式想说的是，这些当然都是非常敏锐的观察和好的想法。
And they just highlight again, that we're incredibly olfactory animals.
他们只是再次强调，我们是嗅觉灵敏的动物。
And you're even talking about the nuance.
你甚至在谈论细微差别。
We're very olfactory even not in the nuance.
我们的嗅觉非常灵敏，即使没有细微的差别。
When people tell me that we don't use our sense of smell and we don't need it and all that, and I have to deal with this a lot.
当人们告诉我我们不使用嗅觉并且我们不需要它等等时，我必须经常处理这个问题。
Right?
正确的？
I have to deal a lot.
我必须处理很多事情。
You study vision.
你研究视觉。
Nobody will tell you that vision is unimportant, right?
没有人会告诉你愿景不重要，对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm very visually dependent.
我非常依赖视觉。
I don't need a dog to take over my olfactory system if I lose olfaction, but I'll tell you from having lost my sense of smell-
如果我失去了嗅觉，我不需要狗来接管我的嗅觉系统，但我会通过失去嗅觉来告诉你——
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
For, yeah
对于，是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
for one day-
一天——
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I was in intense fear.
我处于强烈的恐惧之中。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I love blueberries.
我喜欢蓝莓。
I'm like a drive-by blueberry eater.
我就像一个路过的蓝莓吃者。
If they're there, I just kind of pick them up like a grizzly bear and cram them in my mouth.
如果它们在那里，我就会像灰熊一样把它们捡起来塞进嘴里。
So keep them away from me if you don't want them eaten.
所以如果你不想让它们被吃掉的话就让它们离我远点。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But I almost can't help myself.
但我几乎无法控制自己。
I bit into a blueberry or a handful of blueberries, and it was the sensation of little bags of water, and I-
我咬了一口蓝莓或一把蓝莓，那感觉就像是一小袋水，然后我——
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
immediately felt tremendous grief.
顿时感到巨大的悲痛。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
I'll tell you a sort of a throwaway line that I use when I talk with people.
我会告诉你一种我与人交谈时使用的一次性台词。
Take the two most basic behaviors That sustain us, right?
以维持我们生存的两种最基本的行为为例，对吗？
Let's say I give you a choice between a beautiful-looking layer cake with strawberries and blueberries and whipped cream, but that smells of sewage versus some gray-brown mix that smells of cinnamon.
假设我给你一个选择，一种是看起来很漂亮的草莓、蓝莓和生奶油夹层蛋糕，但那种蛋糕有污水味，另一种是带有肉桂味的灰棕色混合物。
Which do you eat?
你吃哪个？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, simple.
哦，简单。
The latter.
后者。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Right.
对。
You eat the latter.
你吃后者。
Right?
正确的？
Now, imagine I offer you a mate.
现在，想象一下我为你提供了一个伴侣。
Choose the gender of your liking, that looks like a Greek god or goddess, but smells of sewage, or an ordinary-looking individual that smells of cinnamon itself.
选择你喜欢的性别，看起来像希腊神或女神，但闻起来有污水的味道，或者是长相普通但闻起来有肉桂味的人。
Who do you choose?
你选择谁？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The latter.
后者。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Right.
对。
So in the two most basic behaviors we have, we follow our nose, not our eyes.
因此，在我们的两种最基本的行为中，我们跟随我们的鼻子，而不是我们的眼睛。
Right?
正确的？
Definitely-
绝对是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And not always in predictable ways, because you offered an extreme example, which is the best example.
而且并不总是以可预测的方式，因为你提供了一个极端的例子，这是最好的例子。
But I, for instance, for reasons I don't know, I've never liked the smell of perfume, ever.
但例如我，出于我不知道的原因，我从来不喜欢香水的味道。
In fact, I find it aversive.
事实上，我觉得它令人厌恶。
But I confess, I do like the smell of certain body odors very much.
但我承认，我确实非常喜欢某些体味。
And I'm very particular about that, and I know within an instant.
我对此非常挑剔，我立刻就知道了。
And so, this is a problem for any romantic partner who likes perfume for me, but I know many people like perfumes and colognes and things of that sort.
因此，这对于任何喜欢香水的浪漫伴侣来说都是一个问题，但我知道很多人喜欢香水和古龙水之类的东西。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
I like perfume .
我喜欢香水。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And in fairness, I've also been told by someone that they couldn't spend time with me because they do not like my smell.
公平地说，有人告诉我，他们不能和我共度时光，因为他们不喜欢我的气味。
In fact, they dislike it.
事实上，他们不喜欢它。
And fortunately for me, there's at least one person on the planet who said the opposite.
对我来说幸运的是，这个星球上至少有一个人持相反的观点。
So I completely agree with what you're saying.
所以我完全同意你的说法。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I can also say that I imprinted on the smell of my...
我也可以说，我的气味印在了我的身上……
I had a bulldog mastiff that I raised from the time he was a puppy, and I imprinted on his smell immediately.
我有一只斗牛獒，我从他还是小狗的时候就养了它，我立刻就记住了他的气味。
And even though to other people, he was a bulldog mastiff after all, his smell was rather aversive, to me, he smelled delicious.
而且虽然在别人看来，他毕竟是一只斗牛獒，气味有些令人厌恶，但在我看来，他却闻起来很香。
Right?
正确的？
It smelled like home, and he was my-
这里有家的味道，他是我的——
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
best animal friend-
最好的动物朋友——
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
for a long time.
很长一段时间。
And on and on and on.
不断不断。
The smell of children, as you said.
正如你所说，孩子们的气味。
We had a guest on this podcast who I'm sure you're familiar with, Charles Zuker.
我们在这个播客上邀请了一位嘉宾，我相信你很熟悉，查尔斯·祖克 (Charles Zuker)。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
A professor at Columbia, has done incredible work in vision and olfaction-
哥伦比亚大学的一位教授，在视觉和嗅觉方面做出了令人难以置信的工作——
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
thirst sensing.
口渴感测。
And I talked a little bit about this, that there's something in the breath of romantic partners that's hopefully appetitive, not aversive, as well as in children.
我谈到了这一点，浪漫伴侣的呼吸中有些东西希望是令人食欲的，而不是令人厌恶的，就像孩子们一样。
He was talking about the smell of his grandchild, the back of their neck, and how he misses that smell because when he thinks about missing his grandchild or children, it's that smell that's associated with that feeling.
他正在谈论他的孙子、他们脖子后面的气味，以及他如何怀念那种气味，因为当他想到想念他的孙子或孩子们时，正是这种气味与那种感觉联系在一起。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
So, hexadecanal.
所以，十六进制。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hexadecanal?
十六进制？
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Charles Zuker, your grandchildren smell like hexadecanal.
查尔斯祖克，你的孙子闻起来像十六醛。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Yes, they do.
是的，他们确实这么做了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
He's going to come after me now.
他现在要来追我了。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
They do.
他们确实这么做了。
And so this is a study ran by Eva Michor, who was a graduate student in our lab.
这是我们实验室的研究生 Eva Michor 进行的一项研究。
And Eva was interested in aggression.
伊娃对攻击性很感兴趣。
She was really into aggression.
她确实有攻击性。
And so when she started off, we said, "Okay, let's do chemo signaling of aggression." She actually was going to MMA clubs and collecting body odors.
所以当她开始时，我们说，“好吧，让我们用化学信号来表达攻击性。”她实际上是去综合格斗俱乐部收集体味。
And we had all sorts of ideas going, and she worked on that for quite a bit.
我们有各种各样的想法，她为此花了很多时间。
It never went anywhere, really.
它从来没有去任何地方，真的。
And then at the same time, we had a colleague of ours from Germany.
与此同时，我们有一位来自德国的同事。
When I say colleague, primarily a friend or acquaintance I met at conferences, Heinz Briere.
当我说同事时，主要是我在会议上遇到的朋友或熟人，Heinz Briere。
And he was studying in his lab a molecule, hexadecanal, that was a chemo signal in mice, where in mice it was described as a chemo signal that promotes social buffering.
他正在实验室中研究一种分子，十六醛，这是小鼠体内的化学信号，在小鼠体内，它被描述为促进社交缓冲的化学信号。
Where social buffering, as far as I understand, it's not my field, but as far as I understand, it's basically a feel-good together thing.
据我了解，社交缓冲不是我的领域，但据我了解，它基本上是一种让人感觉良好的在一起的事情。
So when lots of mice are together, they feel good about being in a group, and that's social buffering, and it's promoted by hexadecanal, which they emit in their feces, mice.
因此，当很多老鼠聚集在一起时，它们对处于一个群体中感觉良好，这就是社交缓冲，这是由十六醛促进的，老鼠在粪便中排放了十六醛。
And in his work on hexadecanal, so Briere and his colleague, Storzman, they discovered the receptor for this, and then they went and discovered that the receptor is very highly conserved throughout mammalian evolution, and therefore, they hypothesized that maybe this is a universal mammalian signal.
在他对十六醛的研究中，布里埃尔和他的同事斯托兹曼发现了这种受体，然后他们发现这种受体在整个哺乳动物进化过程中高度保守，因此，他们假设这可能是一种普遍的哺乳动物信号。
Now, which is unusual because in chemo signaling, typically, you tend to think of things as being very species-specific.
现在，这很不寻常，因为在化学信号传导中，通常，您倾向于认为事物具有非常物种特异性。
But here they hypothesized that maybe hexadecanal, which promotes social buffering in mice, may do something in all mammals.
但他们在这里假设，促进小鼠社交缓冲的十六醛可能对所有哺乳动物都有作用。
Again, because this receptor is very highly conserved, OR37B, I think.
同样，因为该受体非常高度保守，我认为是 OR37B。
So he approached us and said, "Look, you got to study this stuff in humans." Because he knows us as the human people, right?
所以他走近我们说：“听着，你必须在人类身上研究这个东西。”因为他了解我们人类，对吧？
We go to these olfaction conferences where lots of people study mice and zebrafish and whatnot, and we're the human group.
我们参加这些嗅觉会议，那里有很多人研究老鼠和斑马鱼之类的东西，而我们就是人类小组。
And eventually, he just FedExed us hexadecanal.
最终，他只是通过联邦快递将十六进制寄给我们。
And so we had this thing sitting around, and Eva was not going anywhere with her aggression studies with sweat from human participants, and yet she built the entire paradigm to study human aggression.
所以我们把这个东西放在身边，伊娃并没有用人类参与者的汗水进行攻击性研究，但她建立了整个范式来研究人类攻击性。
So they're standard paradigms.
所以它们是标准范例。
This is a paradigm known as the TAP, the Tyler Aggression Paradigm.
这是一个被称为 TAP（泰勒攻击范式）的范式。
I'll soon describe it And so we said, "Okay, we have this hexadecanal stuff here, and it promotes social buffering.
我很快就会描述它所以我们说，“好吧，我们这里有十六进制的东西，它可以促进社交缓冲。
Social buffering sounds like it would make you less aggressive.
社交缓冲听起来会让你不那么咄咄逼人。
Why don't you run your tap experiment using hexadecanal?" What's the tap experiment?
为什么不使用十六醛进行水龙头实验呢？”敲击实验是什么？
So basically, what you do is you bring in a participant to lab, and you have them thinking that they're going to be playing against another person in this game.
所以基本上，你所做的就是把一个参与者带到实验室，让他们认为他们将在这个游戏中与另一个人比赛。
And you can do something like have another person walk into the other room playing online, so connected.
你可以做一些事情，比如让另一个人走进另一个房间在线玩，从而保持联系。
So you can fool them into being quite convinced that this is what's happening.
所以你可以欺骗他们，让他们相信这就是正在发生的事情。
And they go into their own room, and in the initial game they play, on each round, they're provided with a sum of money.
他们走进自己的房间，在他们玩的最初游戏中，每轮都会获得一笔钱。
And this is real money that they'll receive at the end of the experiment.
这是他们在实验结束时收到的真金白银。
And by turn, each one of them decides how to divide the money up between the two.
然后，他们每个人轮流决定如何在两人之间分配这笔钱。
So they're playing against another person, they think, but that's actually a computer algorithm that they're playing against.
他们认为，他们正在与另一个人比赛，但这实际上是他们正在比赛的计算机算法。
And the computer algorithm is programmed to be, in scientific terminology, a jerk.
用科学术语来说，计算机算法被编程为一个混蛋。
So let's say they have to divvy up 100 shekel, which is the Israeli currency.
假设他们必须瓜分 100 谢克尔（以色列货币）。
So the other player would say, "Okay, I'll keep 96, and you get four." And then you can either accept it or not accept it, and then neither of you get anything.
所以另一个玩家会说：“好吧，我保留 96，你得到 4。”然后你要么接受，要么不接受，然后你们都什么也得不到。
So basically, you're being shafted by the other side all the time.
所以基本上，你一直在被对方欺骗。
And this is called the provocation phase.
这称为挑衅阶段。
You're really getting angry at this person because they're really not nice.
你真的对这个人很生气，因为他们真的很不好。
They're shafting you on every trial, or almost.
他们在每次审判中或几乎每次审判中都在欺骗你。
And you play this game, and it goes to its end, and then you play a second game, as far as you know, against the same participant.
你玩这个游戏，它就结束了，然后你就玩第二个游戏，据你所知，对手是同一个参与者。
And the second game is a reaction time game.
第二个游戏是反应时间游戏。
So a target shows up, and the first to press it wins.
所以一个目标出现了，第一个按下它的人获胜。
And on every trial where you win, if you want, you can blast the other participant with a loud noise.
在每次获胜的试验中，如果你愿意，你可以用巨响轰击其他参与者。
And it's a really loud noise.
而且噪音非常大。
So you're also wearing earphones.
所以你也戴着耳机。
It's 90 dB, and it's a screeching, horrible sound.
噪音为 90 分贝，是一种刺耳、可怕的声音。
It's the most punishment that an IRB committee will let you endure on a participant in an experiment, unless you're in Stanford 70 years ago or whatever that was.
这是 IRB 委员会允许你对实验参与者承受的最严厉的惩罚，除非你是 70 年前的斯坦福大学或者其他什么年代的人。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, I was referring to the classic prisoner experiment, which took place in the building next door to where I work, by the way.
不，顺便说一句，我指的是经典的囚犯实验，该实验发生在我工作的隔壁大楼里。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
So you can blast the other participant with varying levels of sound, and you have a selection box from something very low to something very high.
因此，您可以用不同级别的声音冲击其他参与者，并且您有一个从非常低到非常高的选择框。
And what's nice about this is that then allows you to quantify aggression, because the more volume you're blasting the opponent with, the more aggressive you are towards your opponent.
这样做的好处是，你可以量化攻击性，因为你攻击对手的音量越大，你对对手的攻击性就越大。
And so you have a measure of aggression.
所以你有一定程度的攻击性。
Again, the Tyler aggression paradigm, obviously invented by Tyler.
再说一遍，泰勒的攻击范式，显然是泰勒发明的。
Very well-validated, studied all over, a very standard protocol.
经过充分验证，经过全面研究，是一个非常标准的协议。
So we brought in participants and had them play the Tyler, the tap, either under exposure to hexadecanal or control.
因此，我们邀请了参与者，让他们在十六烷醇或控制下演奏泰勒踢踏舞。
Now, hexadecanal, it's incredibly difficult to even detect hexadecanal, but just in case, because it's considered a semi-volatile.
现在，十六醛，甚至检测十六醛都非常困难，但以防万一，因为它被认为是半挥发性的。
It doesn't have a strong smell.
它没有强烈的气味。
But we buried both the control and the hexadecanal in a control odor that hid them in a mask.
但我们将对照和十六醛都埋在对照气味中，将它们隐藏在面具中。
And she ran lots and lots and lots and lots of participants, men and women.
她参加了很多很多很多的参与者，男人和女人。
And I'll first tell you the result with men, which is that hexadecanal consistently reduced aggression.
我首先会告诉你对男性的结果，即十六烷醇持续减少攻击性。
People were less aggressive under hexadecanal.
在十六烷下，人们的攻击性降低了。
The effect size was quite meaningful, and later on, we learned, because I'm no specialist in the world of aggression, but compared to effects seen in the aggression world in research, really, really strong effects.
效应大小非常有意义，后来我们了解到，因为我不是侵略世界的专家，但与研究中在侵略世界中看到的效应相比，效应真的非常强。
So unusually strong.
如此异常的强大。
So hexadecanal lowered aggression in men, and we were like, "Cool." This is sort of what we were hoping to see, consistent with the hypothesis, and consistent with what it seems to do in mice.
所以十六醛降低了男性的攻击性，我们说，“酷”。这正是我们希望看到的，与假设一致，也与它在小鼠身上的表现一致。
But then we looked at the data from women, and hexadecanal increased aggression equally significantly.
但随后我们查看了女性的数据，十六醛同样显着地增加了攻击性。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is this thought to be something related to maternal protectiveness?
这是否与母亲的保护有关？
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
We're getting there.
我们快到了。
So you got there really fast.
所以你很快就到了。
It took me a year, and Eva got to it, really, I'll tell you, because remember, we're reaching the back of the head of your, whose was it?
我花了一年的时间，伊娃才做到了，真的，我会告诉你，因为记住，我们正在到达你的后脑勺，那是谁的？
Grandchildren?
孙子？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Charles Zucker.
查尔斯·祖克.
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Charles Zucker.
查尔斯·祖克.
Just go with grandchildren.
就带孙子去吧。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The Charles Zucker.
查尔斯·扎克。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
The.
的。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
One of the kingpins of the New York neuroscience mafia.
纽约神经科学黑手党的头目之一。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Yes.
是的。
So this was really odd to me at that time.
所以当时这对我来说真的很奇怪。
So I didn't have the intuition you just had, and I was like, "Eva, there is some bug here.
所以我没有你刚才的直觉，我说，“伊娃，这里有一些错误。
It makes no sense to me.
这对我来说毫无意义。
Why would something increase aggression in women and decrease aggression in men?
为什么某种东西会增加女性的攻击性而减少男性的攻击性？
This is really, really strange." And I said, "Okay, I want to see this happen again before we go ahead with this." So she went and did the entire experiment again, and this time she did it within the fMRI magnet so that we can also track brain activity while this was happening.
这真的非常非常奇怪。”我说：“好吧，在我们继续之前，我希望看到这种情况再次发生。”所以她又做了整个实验，这次她是在功能磁共振成像磁铁内进行的，这样我们也可以在实验发生时跟踪大脑活动。
And first of all, it replicated again.
首先，它再次复制。
So once again, hexadecanal made men less aggressive and women more aggressive.
因此，十六醛再次使男性变得不那么具有攻击性，而女性则变得更加具有攻击性。
And the extent of more than the effect alone, the dissociation was remarkable.
而且解离的程度超过了单独的效果，是显着的。
It's almost like a chromosomal test.
这几乎就像染色体测试。
You look at the data on the unit slope line, and all the men are below, and all the women are above.
你看一下单位斜率线上的数据，所有男性都在下面，所有女性都在上面。
There's this figure in the paper.
报纸上有这个数字。
Then she also looked at the brain data, and although our lab does a ton of fMRI, it's one of the major tools we use to measure brain activity.
然后她还查看了大脑数据，尽管我们的实验室进行了大量的功能磁共振成像，但它是我们用来测量大脑活动的主要工具之一。
I'm quite cognizant of the limitations of fMRI, and this is, sadly, I think the only study in my career at least, where I actually managed to also get a mechanism out of fMRI, not only an area that's involved in activity.
我非常清楚功能磁共振成像的局限性，可悲的是，我认为这至少是我职业生涯中唯一的研究，我实际上还设法从功能磁共振成像中获得一种机制，而不仅仅是涉及活动的领域。
And so here's what we saw, that hexadecanal alone increased activity quite pronouncedly in an area of the brain known as the left angular gyrus.
这就是我们所看到的，仅十六醛就显着增加了大脑中称为左角回的区域的活动。
Now, this is an area involved in what's referred to as social appraisal.
现在，这是一个涉及所谓社会评价的领域。
So that was kind of cool in that a social odor activated the social brain, not the olfactory system per se, and very pronounced.
所以这很酷，因为社交气味激活了社交大脑，而不是嗅觉系统本身，而且非常明显。
So on one hand, that was cool, but then what was uncool was that it did the same in men and women, and this was in contrast to behavior, which you don't like seeing, right?
一方面，这很酷，但不酷的是，它对男性和女性的作用相同，这与你不喜欢看到的行为形成鲜明对比，对吗？
Because you would expect brain activity to reflect behavior, and it increased activity in the left angular gyrus in both men and women.
因为你会期望大脑活动反映行为，并且它增加了男性和女性左角回的活动。
But then she did a follow-up analysis, which was look at what's referred to as functional connectivity.
但随后她进行了后续分析，研究了所谓的功能连接。
That is, how does this region of the brain talk with the entire brain, as it were, under hexadecanal versus control?
也就是说，在十六进制与控制下，大脑的这个区域如何与整个大脑对话？
And here, the dissociation reemerged powerfully, whereby the connectivity from the angular gyrus was mostly to the classic neural substrates of aggression, so the amygdala and the temporal pole, and the connectivity went in opposite directions in men and women.
在这里，分离强烈地重新出现，角回的连接主要与攻击性的经典神经基质有关，因此杏仁核和颞极，以及男性和女性的连接方向相反。
So hexadecanal increased functional connectivity in men and decreased it in women.
因此，十六醛增加了男性的功能连接性，降低了女性的功能连接性。
So in a way, this is almost saying that the default brain reaction is aggression.
所以在某种程度上，这几乎是说大脑的默认反应是攻击性。
Right?
正确的？
The default is to aggress, and in men, hexadecanal increases the control that the left angular gyrus is holding over your aggression and keeping you back, and in women, it let it roam free, and they became more aggressive.
默认情况下是攻击性的，对于男性来说，十六醛增强了左角回对你的攻击性的控制并阻止你的攻击性，而对于女性来说，它让它自由漫游，他们变得更具攻击性。
But I was still puzzled.
但我还是很困惑。
So I was convinced this happened twice.
所以我确信这发生了两次。
The MR data provided not only a pattern but a mechanism, which is unusual.
MR数据不仅提供了一种模式，而且提供了一种机制，这是不寻常的。
And yet, I was telling Eva, "But this makes no sense to me." And then her insight, which, of course, afterwards is like, duh, is, no, there's a place where this makes perfect sense, and that is if you're a mammalian offspring because paternal aggression is often directed at you.
然而，我告诉伊娃，“但这对我来说毫无意义。”然后她的洞察力，当然，后来就像，呃，是，不，有一个地方这是完全有道理的，那就是如果你是哺乳动物的后代，因为父亲的攻击经常针对你。
There's infanticide all over, and sadly, there's male aggression towards human children as well, and maternal aggression is often protective.
杀婴现象随处可见，可悲的是，男性对人类儿童也有攻击行为，而母亲的攻击行为往往是保护性的。
So if you're an offspring, if you have a molecule that will make your mother more aggressive and your daddy less aggressive, both of those are good for you.
所以，如果你是一个后代，如果你有一种分子可以让你的母亲更具攻击性，而你的父亲则不那么攻击性，这两者都对你有好处。
So you're winning.
所以你赢了。
So we remembered a recently published paper from a group in Japan that looked at the odors emanating from baby heads.
因此，我们想起了日本一个小组最近发表的一篇论文，该论文研究了婴儿头部散发的气味。
We now come full circle to Zucker's grandchildren.
现在我们回到扎克的孙子们。
They used a method known as GC-MS, gas chromatography-mass spectrometry, to measure the volatiles from baby heads because baby head odor is a cultural thing across cultures, even in Japan.
他们使用一种称为 GC-MS（气相色谱-质谱法）的方法来测量婴儿头部的挥发物，因为婴儿头部的气味是跨文化的文化现象，甚至在日本也是如此。
And so we quickly went to that paper to see if one of the molecules they report is hexadecanal, and we were very disappointed that it wasn't one of the molecules they reported in the paper.
所以我们很快就去看那篇论文，看看他们报道的分子之一是否是十六醛，我们非常失望，因为它不是他们在论文中报道的分子之一。
And so we wrote to the authors, who are since then our co-authors, and we said, "Look, we're studying this molecule, hexadecanal, and we don't see it in your results, and we were wondering maybe you had some results that you didn't publish or some supplementary materials or whatever." And this lab, which is a hardcore GC lab, said, "No, no. Hexadecanal is a semi-volatile," which we knew, "and our previous paper was not directed to the semi-volatile range, but we can now use what's called GCxGC, double GC, that is directed at semi-volatiles, and we can do this again.
所以我们写信给作者，从那时起他们就是我们的共同作者，我们说，“看，我们正在研究这种分子，十六醛，我们在你们的结果中没有看到它，我们想知道你们是否有一些没有发表的结果或一些补充材料或其他什么。”这个实验室是一个核心 GC 实验室，它说：“不，不。十六醛是半挥发性的，”我们知道，“我们之前的论文不是针对半挥发性范围的，但我们现在可以使用所谓的 GCxGC，双 GC，针对半挥发性，我们可以再次这样做。
We just studied 11 babies, and we can see if this is an issue." So we said, "Yeah, please do." The bottom line of all this is that hexadecanal is the most abundant semi-volatile in baby heads.
我们刚刚研究了 11 名婴儿，我们可以看看这是否是一个问题。”所以我们说：“好的，请这样做。”所有这一切的底线是十六醛是婴儿头部中最丰富的半挥发性物质。
It's tons of it coming out of baby heads.
很多都是从婴儿的脑袋里冒出来的。
So babies, again, speaking about if humans do or don't chemosignal, babies are conducting chemical warfare, right?
所以，婴儿们，再次谈论人类是否发出化学信号，婴儿们正在进行化学战，对吧？
They're reducing aggression in their fathers or males around them and increasing aggression in their mothers or females around them, and both of those things are good for them.
他们减少了父亲或周围男性的攻击性，增加了母亲或周围女性的攻击性，这两件事对他们都有好处。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Incredible.
难以置信。
This is somewhat different than what we're talking about, and yet similar in other ways because it's built off of anecdotal evidence, but it's anecdotal evidence that you hear all the time, and yet when you look in the scientific literature, at least by my read, the data are not clear, maybe even contradictory, and that relates to the coordination of menstrual cycles among co-housed-
这与我们谈论的有些不同，但在其他方面相似，因为它是建立在轶事证据的基础上的，但这是你一直听到的轶事证据，但当你查看科学文献时，至少根据我的阅读，数据并不明确，甚至可能是矛盾的，这与共同居住的月经周期的协调有关——
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
women or women who are friends.
女性或女性朋友。
The many women listening to this, and maybe some men who are aware of this effect, will say, "Oh, yeah, absolutely.
许多听到这个的女性，也许还有一些意识到这种影响的男性，会说：“哦，是的，绝对。
When I spend time with my friends or go away camping or even spend a day with them, our menstrual cycles become coordinated." However, my understanding is that the early literature, Barbara McClintock?
当我与朋友共度时光或外出露营，甚至与他们共度一天时，我们的月经周期就会变得协调。”然而，我的理解是，早期文学，芭芭拉·麦克林托克？
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Correct.
正确。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Discovered this phenomenon, published a paper in Science as an undergraduate?
发现这个现象，本科时在Science上发表论文？
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
1971, "Nature."
1971年，《自然》。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Amazing.
太棒了。
"Nature" paper.
《自然》论文。
Again, one of the three apex journals, and as an undergrad, fantastic.
再说一遍，三本顶级期刊之一，作为一名本科生，太棒了。
So discovered this, described this, and probably women all over the world who became aware of this one way or another probably said, "Yes, absolutely.
所以发现了这一点，描述了这一点，可能世界各地以某种方式意识到这一点的女性可能会说：“是的，绝对如此。
This gives validation to what we've observed-
这验证了我们所观察到的情况——
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
over and over again." And yet, as subsequent papers have been published, this result has been called into question.
一遍又一遍。”然而，随着后续论文的发表，这一结果受到了质疑。
Is there any final word on whether or not menstrual cycles become coordinated among women who spend time together?
对于在一起度过的女性来说，月经周期是否协调有最终的结论吗？
And if so, is there any role of olfaction in this, or chemosensing through the nostrils-
如果是这样，嗅觉或通过鼻孔的化学感应在其中是否有任何作用？
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and/or mouth
和/或嘴
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
to support this idea?
支持这个想法？
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So I'll start off, indeed, to echo The background is that this study was conducted by Martha McClintock when she was an undergraduate at Wesleyan College, and she noticed that she thought her menstrual cycle and her co-inhabitants in her dorm room were coordinated in time.
所以我首先要回应的是，这项研究的背景是，这项研究是玛莎·麦克林托克（Martha McClintock）在卫斯理学院读本科时进行的，她注意到她认为自己的月经周期和宿舍里的同伴是及时协调的。
And I should say that this comes on the basis of similar or related type effects in rodents.
我应该说，这是基于啮齿类动物中类似或相关类型的效应。
Now, rodents don't have a menstrual cycle like humans do, but there's an effect in rodents referred to as the Whitten effect, which resembles this type of effect.
现在，啮齿动物不像人类那样有月经周期，但啮齿动物中有一种称为惠顿效应的效应，类似于这种效应。
And she published indeed that paper as an undergraduate in "Nature" in 1971.
1971 年，她还是本科生时，确实在《自然》杂志上发表了这篇论文。
And to answer your question, she published a follow-up in 1998, also in "Nature," with then her graduate student at Chicago, Stern.
为了回答你的问题，她于 1998 年与当时在芝加哥的研究生斯特恩在《自然》杂志上发表了一篇后续文章。
So this is Stern and McClintock, 1998, and here's what they did.
这就是斯特恩和麦克林托克，1998 年，这就是他们所做的。
They collected sweat from donor women and deposited it on the upper lip of recipient women.
他们收集捐赠女性的汗液并将其涂在受赠女性的上唇上。
So this would be a fun experiment for you at least, because you said you like body odors, but for many others, perhaps it would be daunting.
所以这至少对你来说是一个有趣的实验，因为你说你喜欢体味，但对于其他许多人来说，也许这会令人望而生畏。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, I like certain body odors from certain individuals.
嗯，我喜欢某些人的某些体味。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I don't think I uniformly like all body odors, although I do seem to uniformly not like the smell of perfume.
我不认为我一律喜欢所有的体味，尽管我似乎一律不喜欢香水的味道。
Although I should, just to clarify, because I put this out there- ...
虽然我应该澄清一下，因为我把这个放在那里-......
and I learned the hard way in the comment section on YouTube, some of those perfumes I find downright aversive.
我在 YouTube 的评论部分经历了惨痛的教训，其中一些香水我觉得非常反感。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think the great Marcus Meister, a great neurobiologist, once said there's basically three responses.
我认为伟大的神经生物学家马库斯·梅斯特曾经说过，基本上有三种反应。
It's either yum, yuck, or meh.
要么是“yum”、“yuck”，要么是“meh”。
So some are truly yuck.
所以有些人真的很恶心。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Yeah, I never heard that one.
是的，我从来没有听说过这个。
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Kind of like that one, right?
有点像那个，对吧？
In terms of animal behavior-
就动物行为而言——
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
human behavior-
人类行为——
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
we're either a move forward-
我们要么向前迈进——
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
We're an animal
我们是动物
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
move back, or a-
向后移动，或者-
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
stop or a pause.
停止或暂停。
So some are truly a yuck.
所以有些确实很恶心。
Many are meh.
很多都是meh。
Zero, to date, are yum for me.
到目前为止，零对我来说很美味。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Now, body odors, the distribution is shifted.
现在，体味的分布发生了变化。
It could be any one of those three, yum, yuck, or meh, so just to be clear, but the yum category is definitely included.
它可以是这三个中的任何一个，yum、yuck 或 meh，所以需要明确的是，但 yum 类别肯定包括在内。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
So-
所以——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thank you for allowing me to do that.
感谢您允许我这样做。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So she did this study.
所以她做了这项研究。
So because right in the original McClintock study, you might suspect other drivers of the effect.
因此，因为在麦克林托克最初的研究中，您可能会怀疑该效应的其他驱动因素。
Let's say you accept the effect, but still there might be other social drivers of the effect that are not body odor, right?
假设您接受了这种效应，但仍然可能存在除体臭之外的其他社会驱动因素，对吧？
There might be some dominant woman who's dominant in some other way, and this might be driving the coordination.
可能有一些占主导地位的女性以其他方式占主导地位，这可能会推动协调。
So here, there was no direct link between these women other than body odor, so if the effect reemerged, it would definitely be an olfactory effect.
所以在这里，除了体味之外，这些女性之间并没有其他直接联系，所以如果效果再次出现，那肯定是嗅觉效果。
And what she found is that if she took sweat from the follicular or the ovulatory phase of the donors, one extended the cycle in recipients and one shortened the cycle in recipients.
她发现，如果她从捐赠者的卵泡或排卵期抽取汗液，一种会延长受者的周期，另一种会缩短受者的周期。
I don't remember which was which, but basically, definitely denoting a chemosignaling effect, with opposing effects on duration based on the time it was collected from.
我不记得哪个是哪个，但基本上，明确表示化学信号传导效应，根据收集时间对持续时间产生相反的影响。
Again, published in "Nature" in 1998.
再次发表于1998年《自然》。
That said, there's a quotation, I think this is from...
也就是说，有一个引文，我认为这是来自......
I'm not sure, but that if something's published in "Nature" or "Science," that doesn't necessarily mean it's not true.
我不确定，但如果某些内容发表在《自然》或《科学》上，并不一定意味着它不是真的。
So with that in mind, the findings were since called into question widely.
因此，考虑到这一点，研究结果自此受到广泛质疑。
One reason is just statistics of cyclic events are surprisingly complicated, so it's tricky.
原因之一是周期性事件的统计数据异常复杂，因此很棘手。
Once you have a cyclic event, statistics become tricky.
一旦出现循环事件，统计数据就变得很棘手。
And so Martha took a lot of heat on the statistics of claiming an effect, and I think there was at least one effort of replication that didn't really work out.
因此，玛莎对声称有效果的统计数据抱有很大的热情，我认为至少有一项复制努力并没有真正发挥作用。
If you ask me, I'm on the fence, but I may be in a minority in my field.
如果你问我，我会持观望态度，但我可能在我的领域属于少数派。
I think a majority in the field is currently negative.
我认为目前该领域的大多数人持否定态度。
I'm not.
我不是。
And we've said in lab that we should do a planned replication.
我们在实验室说过我们应该进行有计划的复制。
We will.
我们将。
Again, it's a horrible study to run.
再说一遍，这是一项可怕的研究。
It's tons of work, and you have to run it for a really long time.
这是大量的工作，而且你必须运行很长时间。
And so it's just completely non-trivial.
所以这完全是不平凡的。
But we have a graduate student now in lab interested in these exact things, Ruth Weisgrosp, and she's doing similar stuff, and I hope we'll do that.
但我们实验室现在有一位研究生，露丝·韦斯格罗普（Ruth Weisgrosp）对这些事情感兴趣，她正在做类似的事情，我希望我们能这么做。
I hope we'll try to replicate this.
我希望我们能尝试复制这一点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Very interesting result, and I think interesting because of its real-world, meaning outside the laboratory, of course, or experiment analog, but also because pheromone effects and olfactory effects in humans seem unique among neurobiological/endocrine phenomena because there seems to be so many stories that we all have of the smell of our grandmother's hands, or the recognizing the scent of somebody, or I knew from the moment that I smelled their breath, or I just liked their smell kind of thing.
非常有趣的结果，我认为很有趣，因为它的真实世界，当然意味着实验室之外的实验模拟，而且还因为人类的信息素效应和嗅觉效应在神经生物学/内分泌现象中似乎是独一无二的，因为我们似乎都有很多关于祖母手的气味的故事，或者识别某人的气味，或者我从闻到他们的呼吸的那一刻起就知道，或者我只是喜欢他们的气味之类的事情。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
These kind of things that inform the deep potential for a real biological phenomenon, as opposed to the kind of thing like, oh, you just throw something out there, oxytocin is bonding.
这些东西揭示了真正的生物现象的深层潜力，而不是像哦，你只要把东西扔在那里，催产素就可以粘合。
And all of a sudden, the general public, to no fault of their own, comes to think that every aspect of bonding is oxytocin, and every defect in bonding is lack of oxytocin.
突然间，公众开始认为，亲密关系的每一个方面都是催产素，而亲密关系的每一个缺陷都是缺乏催产素，这并不是他们自己的错。
But- The general public provides a sort of a rich fodder for exploring all these things, and a lot of times they turn out to be true, right?
但是——公众为探索所有这些事情提供了一种丰富的素材，而且很多时候它们都被证明是正确的，对吗？
In the context of olfaction.
在嗅觉的背景下。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
No, it's a very primal system.
不，这是一个非常原始的系统。
So, it's linked to the most limbic, primal mechanisms in our brain, and it drives primal behavior.
因此，它与我们大脑中最边缘、最原始的机制有关，并且它驱动着原始行为。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's an incredible system.
这是一个令人难以置信的系统。
I have a question about a particular study, but I'm just going to cue it up, and you'll know immediately what I'm cuing up.
我有一个关于某项研究的问题，但我只是提示一下，你就会立即知道我在提示什么。
And that is, what is the relationship between odors and hormones, and in particular, crying?
也就是说，气味和荷尔蒙之间有什么关系，特别是哭泣？
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
As I pointed out previously, the sort of flavor of the month in human social chemosignaling research is the smell of fear, and the media of the month is sweat.
正如我之前指出的，人类社会化学信号研究中本月的味道是恐惧的气味，本月的媒体是汗水。
Right?
正确的？
So, the few, maybe tens of labs in the world that study human social chemosignaling all collect sweat, and that's the media they look at.
因此，世界上为数不多的，也许是数十个研究人类社会化学信号传导的实验室都在收集汗水，这就是他们所关注的媒体。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is it always from the armpit, or are there meaningful differences in terms of the sweat emitted from different locations on the body?
是总是从腋窝排出，还是身体不同部位排出的汗水存在有意义的差异？
I already know the answer to that as I ask it, but let's just stay above the waistline and-
当我问这个问题时，我已经知道答案了，但让我们保持在腰围以上，然后——
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Oh, no. Yeah
哦，不。是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
or below the waistline.
或低于腰围。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I mean, we're biologists after all.
我的意思是，我们毕竟是生物学家。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Yeah, so it's funny.
是的，所以这很有趣。
We're working on a paper on that right now on the smell of fear.
我们现在正在写一篇关于恐惧气味的论文。
So we have a nice paradigm for generating fear.
所以我们有一个很好的产生恐惧的范例。
We throw people out of airplanes.
我们把人从飞机上扔下去。
It's a very effective way to generate fear.
这是产生恐惧的非常有效的方法。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I have to come to your lab.
我得去你的实验室。
It sounds like the greatest lab in the world.
这听起来像是世界上最伟大的实验室。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
We didn't invent that, by the way.
顺便说一句，这不是我们发明的。
The first to do that was, and I hope I'm pronouncing her name correctly, I think it's Mujica Perudi.
第一个这样做的是，我希望我正确地发音了她的名字，我认为是 Mujica Perudi。
But that's our paradigm for generating fear, and we started that on our own, but we've since entered into collaboration with the Israeli Paratroopers Brigade, and we now collect body odor from every first-time jumper.
但这是我们产生恐惧的范式，我们自己开始这样做，但后来我们与以色列伞兵旅合作，现在我们收集每个首次跳伞者的体味。
So, we went that path because we, like everybody else in this field, the holy grail there is finding the molecules, right?
所以，我们走这条路是因为我们和这个领域的其他人一样，我们的圣杯就是寻找分子，对吗？
If you'll have the fear molecules, that's a bonanza, right?
如果你拥有恐惧分子，那就是一笔财富，对吧？
Because you could think of many reasons why it would be a bonanza, but for me, if you find the molecules, you can then try and find the receptors.
因为你可以想到很多原因来解释为什么它会是一笔财富，但对我来说，如果你找到了分子，你就可以尝试找到受体。
And when you find the cognate receptors, you can then develop blockers, and you can imagine, what's the term I'm looking for?
当你找到同源受体时，你就可以开发阻滞剂，你可以想象，我正在寻找的术语是什么？
I'm switching into Hebrew.
我要换成希伯来语。
It's about midnight now, right?
现在已经是半夜了，对吧？
I'm sorry.
对不起。
It's 2:00 in the morning.
现在是凌晨 2:00。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You're doing incredibly well, considering the inversion of the circadian clock.
考虑到生物钟的倒转，你做得非常好。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
It's definitely 2 in the morning, yeah.
肯定是凌晨两点了，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We would never know.
我们永远不会知道。
Noam traveled in today from Israel, so he's a circadian inverted, as we say.
诺姆今天从以色列过来，所以正如我们所说，他的昼夜节律颠倒了。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Anxiety.
焦虑。
So, you can imagine developing a nasal spray against anxiety, right?
所以，你可以想象开发一种抗焦虑的鼻喷雾剂，对吧？
Where you would quell those receptors and kill the fear response, right?
你会在哪里平息这些受体并消除恐惧反应，对吗？
Which, rather than going the current path, which is through neurotransmitters that then have effects all over the place, you would be getting fear at its source, right?
哪一个，而不是走目前的道路，即通过神经递质，然后对整个地方产生影响，你会从根源上感到恐惧，对吗？
So that would be why I would want that.
这就是我想要的原因。
And we figured out that doing that, collecting fear from three, four, or five people in an experiment, you'll never be able to do analytical chemistry on that.
我们发现，这样做，在实验中收集三、四或五个人的恐惧，你将永远无法对此进行分析化学。
So we now have a setting we call Fear Bank, which now has more than 1,000 samples in it.
所以我们现在有一个称为“恐惧银行”的设置，其中现在有超过 1,000 个样本。
So we're trying to do analytics on that.
所以我们正在尝试对此进行分析。
But in doing that, we've joined the crowd.
但在这样做的过程中，我们加入了人群。
Everybody's doing fear, and everybody's doing sweat.
每个人都在恐惧，每个人都在流汗。
And in one of our discussions in lab, we were saying, well, there's got to be, or there potentially definitely could be additional bodily media that are playing into social chemosignaling.
在我们实验室的一次讨论中，我们说，嗯，一定有，或者肯定有可能有其他身体媒体正在发挥社交化学信号的作用。
Now many of these, you can't really study, right?
现在很多这些，你真的学不来吧？
So just to throw out, most terrestrial mammals communicate social information through urine.
顺便说一句，大多数陆生哺乳动物通过尿液传达社交信息。
But starting doing experiments with humans with smelling urine, it would be difficult both in IRB and in agreement.
但开始对人类进行嗅尿实验，无论是在 IRB 中还是在达成一致上都将是困难的。
And then this is a rare case where we actually hypothesized what we set out to do, and then only claim in retrospect that it was hypothesis, is tears.
这是一种罕见的情况，我们实际上假设了我们打算做的事情，然后事后才声称这是假设，是眼泪。
We started thinking about tears and looking into tears because tears are a bodily liquid, emotional tears, that we emit in emotional situations where these are situations where non-verbal communication is critical and key.
我们开始思考眼泪并研究眼泪，因为眼泪是一种体液、情感眼泪，我们在情绪化的情况下会流下眼泪，而在这些情况下，非语言交流是至关重要的。
And tears are a liquid that is puzzling beyond ocular maintenance, right?
眼泪是一种超出眼睛保养范围的液体，令人费解，对吗？
And so the most influential text, I think, till this day in emotion research is Darwin's book, "The Expression of the Emotions in Man and Animals," I think is the full name of the book.
因此，我认为，迄今为止，情感研究中最有影响力的文本是达尔文的书《人类和动物的情感表达》，我认为这是这本书的全名。
And an entire chapter, chapter six, is devoted to tears.
整整一章，第六章，都是泪水。
An entire chapter of this book.
本书的一整章。
Why?
为什么？
With no conclusion.
没有结论。
Why?
为什么？
Because the book revolves around describing the functional antecedents of emotional expressions.
因为这本书围绕着描述情绪表达的功能前因展开。
So, for example, showing of the teeth is a sign of aggression, right?
那么，举个例子，露出牙齿就是一种攻击性的表现，对吗？
So animals first bit with their teeth, and Darwin argued that through evolution, just showing the teeth alone became an aggressive sign because it started from biting.
因此，动物首先用牙齿咬人，达尔文认为，通过进化，仅仅露出牙齿就成为一种攻击性的迹象，因为它是从咬开始的。
Or what I find is a beautiful example, and this is work partly done by Adam Anderson, now at Cornell, is the emotional expression of disgust.
或者我发现一个美丽的例子，这是由现在在康奈尔大学的亚当·安德森（Adam Anderson）完成的部分工作，是厌恶的情感表达。
So disgust, which comes from Latin disgustia, distaste, right, is spitting something out of your mouth.
厌恶，来自拉丁语disgustia，厌恶，对，就是从嘴里吐出一些东西。
Now, what Adam showed is that The musculature patterns of activation and the temporal sequence of activation when you experience moral disgust are the same as when you spit a bitter taste out of your mouth.
现在，亚当所展示的是，当你经历道德厌恶时，肌肉组织的激活模式和激活的时间顺序与你从嘴里吐出苦味时是一样的。
So again, so there's a functional antecedent, spitting something out, and through evolution, the argument was that it became an expression of emotion, and you express disgust just as if you're spitting something out of your mouth, even though in the case of moral disgust, there's nothing you're spitting out of your mouth.
再说一遍，有一个功能性的先行词，吐出一些东西，通过进化，争论是它变成了一种情感的表达，你表达厌恶就像你从嘴里吐出东西一样，即使在道德厌恶的情况下，你没有从嘴里吐出任何东西。
So Darwin systematically went through the expressions of emotions, and for each one went to their functional antecedent and explained everything very nicely.
因此，达尔文系统地研究了情感的表达，并针对每一种情感表达了其功能性先行词，并很好地解释了一切。
And then he got stuck with tears, because tears are an obvious emotional expression, and he could not find a functional antecedent.
然后他就被眼泪困住了，因为眼泪是一种明显的情感表达，他找不到功能性先行词。
So he ended up saying, "This is an epic phenomenon," basically.
所以他最终说，“这是一个史诗般的现象”，基本上。
I don't know.
我不知道。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What all scientists do when they don't have a good explanation, blame it on nature.
所有科学家在没有一个好的解释的时候都会做的事情，就是将其归咎于大自然。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Right.
对。
But he bothered to write this entire chapter on the ocular sort of maintenance function of tears and so on and so forth, but nothing emotional.
但他费心写了整章关于眼泪对眼睛的维护功能等等的内容，但没有任何感情色彩。
So we thought, well, maybe the function is a chemical signal.
所以我们想，也许这个功能是一种化学信号。
So with that in mind, we harvested emotional tears, which was also an amusing event on its own.
考虑到这一点，我们收获了感动的泪水，这本身也是一件有趣的事情。
Because we posted messages on all sorts of boards that we're seeking experiment participants who cry with ease.
因为我们在各种论坛上发布了消息，我们正在寻找能够轻松哭泣的实验参与者。
Now, this generated an unfortunate gender bias in our study.
现在，这在我们的研究中产生了不幸的性别偏见。
Because we received about 100 women volunteers and about one man.
因为我们接待了大约 100 名女性志愿者和大约 1 名男性志愿者。
And I think this is not a problem only in macho Israel.
我认为这不仅仅是男子气概的以色列的问题。
Probably anywhere in the West, definitely in America it would be the same, I think.
我想，可能在西方的任何地方，当然在美国，情况都是一样的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
My guess is that there are probably men out there who cry easily, emotional tears easily-
我的猜测是，可能有一些男人很容易哭泣，很容易在情感上流泪——
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Oh, I'm sure
哦，我确定
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
but they're not going to show up.
但他们不会出现。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
That's what I'm saying.
这就是我所说的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
It's a cultural thing.
这是一个文化问题。
You're not going to come to a lab and say, "I cry all the time." It's just not going to happen.
你不会去实验室说：“我一直在哭。”这不会发生。
And then, what we did is, for each one of these participants, we would ask them, "Is there a particular film event that you know of, or a scene that makes you cry?" And interestingly, in these effective criers, there was always, "Oh, yes, the scene in so and so.
然后，我们所做的是，对于每一位参与者，我们会问他们，“你知道一个特定的电影事件，或者一个让你哭泣的场景吗？”有趣的是，在这些有效的哭声中，总是有这样的内容：“哦，是的，某某场景。
I always cry profusely from that." They have their-
我总是因此而大哭。”他们有他们的——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Can you give me an example of one of the more commonly named scenes?
您能给我举一个更常见的场景的例子吗？
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
With ease.
轻松。
The movie "The Champ."
电影《冠军》。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hmm.
嗯。
I know that one.
我知道那个。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
The champ dies.
冠军死了。
He's a boxer, and he dies literally in the hands of his about eight-year-old son, and his son is standing next to his bed and saying, "Champ, champ," and he dies.
他是一名拳击手，他死在他大约八岁的儿子手中，他的儿子站在他的床边说：“冠军，冠军”，然后他就死了。
It's a winner.
这是一个赢家。
Okay?
好的？
And-
还有——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Waterfalls.
瀑布。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Got it.
明白了。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
So, we're probably the neurobiology lab with most sad movie films on the shelf in the world, right?
所以，我们可能是世界上最悲伤的电影的神经生物学实验室，对吗？
We have a whole huge collection.
我们有一个巨大的收藏。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There is such a thing as tears of joy, by the way.
顺便说一句，有一种叫做喜悦的眼泪的东西。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
So, no.
所以，不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No?
没有？
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Well, we're getting ahead of ourselves-
好吧，我们有点超前了——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sure
当然可以
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
...
...
but let's just say we tried to collect them and failed.
但假设我们尝试收集它们但失败了。
Even people who think they shed tears of joy and laughter, their eyes water a bit, but it's not the same thing.
即使是那些认为自己流下喜悦的泪水和笑声的人，他们的眼睛也会有点流泪，但这不是同一回事。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Ah.
啊。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
In the effective criers we end up screening, we collect a full ml of tears in about 15 minutes.
在我们最终筛选的有效哭泣者中，我们在大约 15 分钟内收集了一毫升的眼泪。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wow.
哇。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
So that's pouring, right?
所以这就是倾盆大雨，对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
And that doesn't happen from laughter.
而这不会因为笑声而发生。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Correct.
正确。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
We've never seen that happen from laughter.
我们从未见过这样的事情发生在笑声中。
We tried.
我们尝试过。
So we have all these sad films, and by the way, one of the amusing things is, when we ultimately published this paper in Science, we were forced in retrospect to go out and actually buy the films.
所以我们有所有这些悲伤的电影，顺便说一句，有趣的事情之一是，当我们最终在《科学》杂志上发表这篇论文时，我们被迫回顾过去并实际购买这些电影。
Originally, we downloaded them here and there, but you can't because you'd be violating copyright.
最初，我们到处下载它们，但你不能，因为你会侵犯版权。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Copyright laws.
版权法。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Right.
对。
So we had to purchase all these films that the participants watched.
所以我们必须购买参与者观看的所有这些电影。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And watch them.
并观察他们。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
So we actually have these in lab, DVDs, that we actually purchased.
所以我们实际上在实验室里有这些，DVD，我们实际购买的。
But, so-
但是，所以——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Nice coverage of potential legal fallout there, Noam.
诺姆，对那里潜在的法律后果进行了很好的报道。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
No, we did.
不，我们做到了。
We did.
我们做到了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, I believe you.
不，我相信你。
I believe you.
我相信你。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Yeah, it was that-
是的，就是这样——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I believe you.
我相信你。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
And, well, we can touch on that later.
而且，好吧，我们可以稍后再谈。
But, so most of these volunteers who come saying they can cry with ease actually don't meet the bill.
但是，大多数声称可以轻松哭泣的志愿者实际上并不符合要求。
And so out of the about 100, at least, more women that we screened, we ended up with about six who could really come to lab week after week and pour tears.
因此，在我们筛选的大约 100 名（至少更多）女性中，我们最终选出了大约 6 名真正可以一周又一周来到实验室流泪的女性。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There's a name for this in psychiatry.
精神病学上有一个名字。
They call it a narrative distancing.
他们称之为叙事距离。
Some people, when they watch a film where someone's getting hit, they flinch quite a lot.
有些人，当他们观看有人被击中的电影时，他们会退缩很多。
It's almost as if they're experiencing it.
就好像他们正在经历一样。
But it works in the opposite direction, too.
但它也可以朝相反的方向发挥作用。
I know someone like this-
我认识这样一个人——
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Okay
好的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
where if they watch a film that someone's experiencing something even mildly positive, their mood elevates.
如果他们观看一部影片，其中某人正在经历哪怕是轻微积极的事情，他们的情绪就会升高。
So they can quickly bridge.
这样他们就可以快速架起桥梁。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it's not always adaptive, as you can imagine.
正如您可以想象的那样，它并不总是具有适应性。
So there's lack of narrative distancing.
所以缺乏叙事距离。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Right.
对。
Yeah.
是的。
One issue you can bring up with this entire line of studies in our lab is, I don't know if there's something very unique about the donors.
在我们实验室的整个研究中，你可以提出的一个问题是，我不知道捐赠者是否有一些非常独特的东西。
We're assuming these are tears, and it's-
我们假设这些是眼泪，它是-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, this is pretty common.
不，这很常见。
I think that the numbers I saw out there, about five to 8% of people.
我想我看到的人数大约是 5% 到 8%。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
That's exactly what we got about, right?
这正是我们所得到的，对吧？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Interesting.
有趣。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
About 6%.
大约6%。
So we collected tears, and we exposed participants to these tears.
所以我们收集了眼泪，让参与者接触到这些眼泪。
And we found a few things.
我们发现了一些事情。
First of all, the tears are completely odorless.
首先，眼泪是完全没有气味的。
You cannot detect them at all, completely odorless.
你根本察觉不到它们，完全没有气味。
And yet, when you sniff them, you have a pronounced reduction in testosterone within about 20 minutes, half an hour.
然而，当你闻它们时，你的睾酮激素会在大约 20 分钟、半小时内明显减少。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This is men and women smelling women's tears?
这是男女闻女人泪？
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Men.
男人。
Just men.
只是男人。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Men smelling women's tears-
男人闻女人泪水——
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
but not perceiving any odor.
但没有感觉到任何气味。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Nothing.
什么也没有。
Just sniffing them.
只是闻闻它们。
And you have about a 14% drop in free testosterone.
而且你的游离睾酮水平大约下降了 14%。
Free.
自由的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay, so this is testosterone that's already been liberated from the testes.
好的，这是已经从睾丸中释放出来的睾酮。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Free testosterone.
游离睾酮。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And so that we've done a few hormone edits, either bound or unbound.
所以我们做了一些激素编辑，无论是结合的还是未结合的。
It's unbound, excuse me-
没有绑定，请原谅-
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
from sex hormone, binding globulin, et cetera, and it's the active form.
来自性激素、结合球蛋白等，它是活性形式。
So it's subject to very short timescale changes.
因此，它会发生非常短的时间尺度变化。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
And people who study testosterone, which is not me, but they tell me this is a really strong effect.
研究睾酮的人，虽然不是我，但他们告诉我这是一个非常强大的效果。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
It's hard to even pharmacologically get an effect like that, that fast.
即使从药理上来说，也很难这么快地达到这样的效果。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
I know in pharmacology.
我知道药理学。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, years ago, I spent time studying endocrine effects of this sort, and that's a tremendously-
是的，几年前，我花时间研究这种内分泌效应，这是一个非常-
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
sized effect.
大小的效果。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
And so here I'll point out in passing that one of the concerns we had because of the effort to run this study is that nobody would ever try to replicate it.
因此，在这里我要顺便指出，我们在努力进行这项研究时所担心的一个问题是，没有人会尝试复制它。
And to our joy, about two years later, an independent group from South Korea, Oh et al., who I don't know at all, replicated the testosterone effect to a T.
令我们高兴的是，大约两年后，一个来自韩国的独立小组 Oh 等人（我根本不认识他们）将睾酮效应复制到了 T 类动物身上。
Same numbers.
相同的数字。
So it lowers testosterone.
所以它会降低睾丸激素。
And we then also looked, using MR, at the effect on brain activity and saw a pronounced effect on activity, a dampening, a lowering of activity under an arousing state.
然后，我们还使用 MR 观察了对大脑活动的影响，发现对活动有显着影响，在兴奋状态下会抑制或降低活动。
A lowering of activity both in the hypothalamus and in the fusiform gyrus, for whatever reason, I don't know.
下丘脑和梭状回的活动降低，无论出于什么原因，我不知道。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Face recognition area.
人脸识别区域。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Amongst other things, yes.
除其他外，是的。
And we don't know why.
我们不知道为什么。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Interesting.
有趣。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
But pronounced.
但很明显。
And currently, Shania Gronin in our lab is replicating this again, and this time with a stronger behavioral component.
目前，我们实验室的 Shania Gronin 正在再次复制这一点，这次具有更强的行为成分。
And I can share with you unpublished data now under review that as you would expect, given the effect on testosterone perhaps, sniffing tears lowers aggression in men.
我可以与您分享目前正在审查的未发表的数据，正如您所期望的那样，考虑到对睾丸激素的影响，嗅眼泪可能会降低男性的攻击性。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Very interesting.
非常有趣。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Using again the TAP, the same experiment used by Irvine in the hexadecanol experiment.
再次使用 TAP，与 Irvine 在十六醇实验中使用的实验相同。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The TAP, I'm going to think of that as the sadist-
TAP，我会认为这是虐待狂——
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Tyler aggression
泰勒的攻击性
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
the titration, the sadist titration experiment-
滴定，虐待狂滴定实验——
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Tyler aggression paradigm
泰勒攻击范式
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
with the lab rats.
和实验室老鼠。
Not unlike the Milgram experiments of the 1950s, which this was looking at sort of post-Holocaust behavior.
与 20 世纪 50 年代的米尔格拉姆实验没什么不同，该实验着眼于大屠杀后的行为。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
People basically, in American laboratories, thinking they were torturing other people-
基本上，在美国实验室里，人们认为他们在折磨其他人——
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
simply because they were told to, and a lot of people did that, even though most people would report that they would never torture somebody else.
仅仅因为他们被告知要这样做，而且很多人都这样做了，尽管大多数人会报告说他们永远不会折磨别人。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
No, humans are not a wonderful species.
不，人类并不是一个奇妙的物种。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No. Or as we could say, I think it was the great Carl Jung that said we have all things inside of us, but the goal is not to experience them all, certainly.
不。或者正如我们可以说的，我认为伟大的卡尔·荣格说过，我们内心拥有一切，但我们的目标当然不是体验所有这些。
It's an incredible study, and it points again to the power of these chemosensory systems and pathways.
这是一项令人难以置信的研究，它再次表明了这些化学感应系统和途径的力量。
And obviously, there's so much here.
显然，这里有很多东西。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
I don't know if you want me to tell about this or not, and I guess you can edit it out-
我不知道你是否想让我告诉你这件事，我想你可以把它编辑掉-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Please
请
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
...
...
if you don't want.
如果你不想的话。
But-
但是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Please
请
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
...
...
this is just sharing stories about the politics of science.
这只是分享有关科学政治的故事。
And so whereas the effect on testosterone was replicated by an independent group, in the original study in science where it had three components.
因此，尽管一个独立的小组复制了对睾酮的影响，但在最初的科学研究中，它具有三个组成部分。
One was the effect on testosterone, which was robust, the second, which was brain activity, which was robust, and there was a significant but weaker effect on behavior, and I don't think we studied the right behavior in retrospect.
一是对睾酮的影响，这是强大的，第二是对大脑活动的影响，这是强大的，对行为有显着但较弱的影响，我认为我们回顾起来并没有研究正确的行为。
What we looked at then was ratings of arousal associated with pictures.
然后我们观察的是与图片相关的兴奋度评级。
And there was an effect, it was significant, but it was not what carried the story.
这是有影响的，它很重要，但它并不是故事的核心。
Now, there's a lab in Holland of a guy by the name of, I'm probably mispronouncing this, but I think it's Vingerhoets.
现在，荷兰有一个实验室，有一个人的名字，我可能读错了，但我认为他是 Vingerhoets。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
For the non-Dutch.
对于非荷兰人。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Dutch names are always a little bit of a challenge, but-
荷兰名字总是有点挑战，但是-
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
And I shouldn't say that.
我不应该这么说。
Being an Israeli, I shouldn't go too much on that line.
作为一个以色列人，我不应该在这句话上说太多。
But that lab really didn't like our original tear story.
但那个实验室真的不喜欢我们最初的催泪故事。
And the reason they didn't like it is because they've built a career on this notion, including a book with this title, that "Emotional tears are uniquely human." Now, here I should share, so one of the things we really liked about the tear result is that partially before we did our work, but more afterwards, and we like that because usually things-- So usually in our chemosignaling work, like what I told you before about the Bruce effect, we look at what happens in rodents, and we see if the same thing is happening in humans.
他们不喜欢它的原因是因为他们的职业生涯建立在这个概念上，包括一本标题为“情感眼泪是人类独有的”的书。现在，我应该在这里分享，所以我们真正喜欢撕裂结果的一件事是，部分是在我们做我们的工作之前，但更多的是之后，我们喜欢这一点，因为通常是这样的——所以通常在我们的化学信号工作中，就像我之前告诉你的布鲁斯效应一样，我们会观察啮齿类动物中发生的情况，我们看看同样的事情是否也发生在人类身上。
This was a rare case where after we did this work, more or less identical effects were discovered in rodents.
这是一种罕见的情况，在我们完成这项工作后，在啮齿动物中发现了或多或少相同的效果。
So a paper published in "Nature" two years later found that mouse tears Mouse pup tears lower aggression in male adult mice towards them.
因此，两年后发表在《自然》杂志上的一篇论文发现，老鼠的眼泪可以降低雄性成年老鼠对它们的攻击性。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In a smell-dependent way.
以一种依赖气味的方式。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
And they also actually found the actual component in tears, so the tear pheromone that lowers aggression.
他们实际上还在眼泪中发现了真正的成分，即降低攻击性的眼泪信息素。
You can think of tears as like a chemical blanket in a way, that you're covering yourself up to protect against aggression.
在某种程度上，你可以把眼泪想象成一条化学毯子，用它来遮盖自己以免受攻击。
And so our finding, which to me, this is consistent with how I think about behavior in general.
所以我们的发现，对我来说，这与我对一般行为的看法是一致的。
I don't think beyond language, there are very few things, definitely sensory things, that are uniquely human.
我认为除了语言之外，很少有东西是人类独有的，尤其是感官上的东西。
I'd be hard-pressed.
我会很为难。
So our finding went against their story.
所以我们的发现与他们的说法相悖。
Because here we're saying, no, tears are this chemo signaling mechanism like all animals.
因为在这里我们要说的是，不，眼泪是像所有动物一样的化学信号机制。
And by the way, just after this entire debate, about six months ago, there was a paper in "Current Biology" that dogs emit emotional tears.
顺便说一句，就在整个辩论结束后，大约六个月前，《当代生物学》上有一篇论文说狗会流下激动的眼泪。
And the dogs emit emotional tears when they reunite with their owners.
当狗狗与主人重聚时，它们会流下激动的眼泪。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
And you were talking before about oxytocin.
你之前谈到过催产素。
So I think what they showed there is that not only that, but that the view, seeing the tears in the dog influences oxytocin in the humans.
所以我认为他们所展示的不仅是这一点，而且看到狗的眼泪的观点也会影响人类的催产素。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I absolutely-
我绝对——
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
I hope I'm getting this right.
我希望我能做对。
But that's-
但那是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, I absolutely believe this.
不，我绝对相信这一点。
From the time I brought Costello home at eight weeks old-
从我八周大的时候我把科斯特洛带回家开始——
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Costello's your dog
科斯特洛是你的狗
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
he is my dog.
他是我的狗。
Unfortunately, he passed away about a long time.
不幸的是，他去世了很长一段时间。
Actually, the only time I can recall crying...
说实话，我唯一能记得的一次哭就是……
Listen, I've certainly cried before, many times in my life.
听着，我以前确实哭过，一生中哭过很多次。
Many, many times.
很多很多次。
The only time I ever recall crying to the point where I wasn't sure that I could keep producing tears, but somehow did, is when I had to put him down.
我记得唯一一次哭到我不确定自己是否能继续流泪，但不知怎的，就是当我不得不把他放下时。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's just like, and if I talk about too long now-
就像，如果我现在说得太长了-
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
You'll tear up
你会流泪
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I'll start crying today.
今天我会开始哭泣。
It's one of those things-
这是其中之一——
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and I think it's a healthy-
我认为这是一个健康的——
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
emotional state.
情绪状态。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
For sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But I recall when he was a puppy, thinking, "This oxytocin thing must be real," because I can recall being in faculty meetings, which fairly stated are not always that interesting, but they could be pretty interesting, and someone presenting data, and my mind thinking, "I hope Costello's okay.
但我记得当他还是一只小狗的时候，我想，“这种催产素的东西一定是真实的，”因为我记得参加教员会议，公平地说并不总是那么有趣，但它们可能非常有趣，有人展示数据，我的脑海里想，“我希望科斯特洛没事。
What's he doing down in my office?" This is when he was very little.
他来我办公室做什么？”这是他很小的时候。
And also not needing to eat, not being able to focus on anything else except my attachment to him for about the first two or three weeks that I had him.
而且在我拥有他的头两三周里，我不需要吃饭，除了我对他的依恋之外，无法专注于其他任何事情。
Then it was easy.
然后就很容易了。
Then I could focus off on other things.
然后我就可以专注于其他事情。
And I think that dogs, perhaps through oxytocin, hijack the circuitry that's intended for child rear.
我认为狗可能通过催产素劫持了用于抚养孩子的电路。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I really do.
我真的这么做。
Otherwise, why would people be so ridiculously attached to their dogs?
否则，为什么人们会对他们的狗如此可笑呢？
Hence all the posts of everyone thinks their dog is the cutest dog-
所以大家的帖子都认为自己的狗是最可爱的狗——
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
the same way everyone thinks their children are the cutest children.
就像每个人都认为自己的孩子是最可爱的孩子一样。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Mine are-
我的是-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Costello, by the way, was a very handsome bulldog.
顺便说一句，科斯特洛是一只非常英俊的斗牛犬。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
So yeah.
所以是的。
So even to put another nail in that story of tears are uniquely human, so they're not, dogs shed emotional tears.
因此，即使在这个故事中再加上一个钉子，眼泪也是人类独有的，所以它们不是，狗会流下情感上的眼泪。
And so that group really didn't like this, and they went ahead and tried to replicate.
所以那个团队真的不喜欢这样，他们继续尝试复制。
And to your listeners, I'm showing double quotations on the replicate, only the behavioral part, the ratings of arousal-
对于你们的听众，我在复制品上显示了双引号，仅是行为部分，即唤醒评级-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm
毫米
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
...
...
of women, and failed to replicate that.
女性，但未能复制这一点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I see.
我明白了。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Now, this was just sharing on how science works and doesn't work in my notion in this case.
现在，这只是分享科学如何运作，但在我的想法中，在这种情况下不起作用。
So at the time, after they got this accepted in some journal, not a field journal, in a journal of memory of something, they contacted me for a response.
所以当时，当他们在某个期刊（不是实地期刊，而是某件事的记忆期刊）接受了这一点后，他们联系了我寻求答复。
And I wrote to the author, and I said, "Look, this is very odd to me.
我写信给作者，我说：“看，这对我来说很奇怪。
Why don't we replicate this again together and see if it doesn't work?
我们为什么不一起再次复制这个并看看它是否不起作用？
If it doesn't work, I'll publish it with you that it doesn't work." And so I said, "Why don't you send over a graduate student or the lead author, and we'll do it here, and we'll show them how it's done," because they did it very wrongly in the paper.
如果不行的话，我就和你一起公布，说不行。”所以我说，“为什么你不派一名研究生或主要作者来，我们会在这里做，我们会向他们展示它是如何完成的，”因为他们在论文中做得非常错误。
And so they replied that no, they don't have money to send over a graduate student to do it.
所以他们回答说不，他们没有钱派研究生来做这件事。
So I replied saying, "Okay, I'll fund the graduate student coming over, and I'll fund the entire study and their stay," and so on and so forth, "and let's do this together." And they replied, no, they're not willing to do that, which I don't think is the way things should work.
所以我回答说，“好吧，我会资助过来的研究生，我会资助整个研究和他们的住宿，”等等，“让我们一起做这件事。”他们回答说，不，他们不愿意这样做，我认为这不是事情应该进行的方式。
And they published this sort of failed behavioral effect in that paper.
他们在那篇论文中发表了这种失败的行为效应。
So I'm just sharing this, that there was that successful replication with the effect on testosterone, but there was supposedly this failed replication on the effect in behavior.
所以我只是分享这一点，成功复制了对睾酮的影响，但据说复制失败了对行为的影响。
And then I published a rebuttal on that, which I don't know if I should've done, but I did.
然后我发表了对此的反驳，我不知道我是否应该这样做，但我做了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, I think it's interesting.
嗯，我觉得这很有趣。
I think provided studies are done correctly, the positive result almost always trumps the negative result, and yet I think replication is key.
我认为只要研究做得正确，积极的结果几乎总是胜过消极的结果，但我认为复制是关键。
The problem, as you point out, is that replication is rarely pure replication of the exact study.
正如您所指出的，问题在于复制很少是精确研究的纯粹复制。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
This one is not even remotely.
这甚至不是遥不可及的。
So actually, they hid something in their data that did partially work.
所以实际上，他们在数据中隐藏了一些部分有效的东西。
So I asked for their data, and I reanalyzed it, and that's what I published in the rebuttal.
所以我要了他们的数据，我重新分析了一下，这就是我在反驳中发表的内容。
But this is just sharing on how science works.
但这只是分享科学如何运作。
I took advice.
我接受了建议。
It's not that I'm friends with him, but at that time, I was communicating a bit because we were on some board with Daniel Kahneman, who's Nobel laureate.
并不是说我和他是朋友，但当时我进行了一些交流，因为我们与诺贝尔奖获得者丹尼尔·卡尼曼（Daniel Kahneman）是某个董事会成员。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
"Thinking, Fast and Slow."
“思考，快与慢。”
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Right.
对。
And so I asked him, "How should I deal with this?
于是我问他：“我该怎么处理这个问题？
Give me some advice here." It was emotionally not fun to be in that position.
在这里给我一些建议。”处于那个位置在情感上并不有趣。
And he said, "Don't Never publish a rebuttal.
他说：“永远不要发表反驳。
Don't do anything." And I was, "How can I?
什么都不要做。”我当时想，“我怎么能？
I have to do something." He said, "No, don't.
我必须做点什么。”他说：“不，不要。
Because once you do that, then people don't go into the details.
因为一旦你这样做了，人们就不会再深入细节了。
They won't read the details of your rebuttal.
他们不会阅读你反驳的细节。
They'll be like, 'Well, there's a group that says this, and there's a group that says that,' so it's unclear."
他们会说，‘嗯，有一个团体这么说，有一个团体这么说’，所以还不清楚。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well-
嗯-
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
And-
还有——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
I appreciate that you're bringing it up today, and I do appreciate that you published the rebuttal, and that you offered, in a very magnanimous way-
我很感激你今天提出这个问题，我也很感激你发表反驳，并以一种非常慷慨的方式提出——
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
So-
所以——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
to do a collaboration
进行合作
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
...
...
that's what he then said.
他当时就是这么说的。
So Carmen's advice after that was that, well, if you insist, then just publish.
所以卡门之后的建议是，好吧，如果你坚持的话，那就发表吧。
Write a response that you offered them to come do it together.
写下您邀请他们一起做的回复。
They refused, and there's nothing you can do about that.
他们拒绝了，你对此无能为力。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's a lot like fight sports, right?
这很像格斗运动，对吧？
People talk a lot of trash.
人们说了很多垃圾话。
Although in science, I will say this, as long as we're on the sociology of science.
尽管在科学领域，只要我们涉及科学社会学，我就会这么说。
Science is very different-
科学是非常不同的——
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
The stakes are lower.
风险较低。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Science is very different than podcasting or social media or other fields, because in science, people generally are very kind to your face, and then they- ...
科学与播客、社交媒体或其他领域有很大不同，因为在科学中，人们通常对你的脸非常友善，然后他们-...
you get it in the neck on grant reviews or anonymous reviews.
你会在拨款审查或匿名审查中遇到麻烦。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I was on a grants review panel this morning.
今天早上我参加了一个拨款审查小组。
I'm a nice reviewer, meaning I judge things objectively, but I try to always think from the perspective of the graduate student or author of the proposal.
我是一个很好的审稿人，这意味着我客观地判断事物，但我尝试始终从研究生或提案作者的角度思考。
Listen, I think that science is a game of people who, most of them are seeking facts.
听着，我认为科学是人们的游戏，他们中的大多数人都在寻找事实。
However, the ego is strongly woven into it like anything else.
然而，自我就像其他事物一样强烈地融入其中。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So I think it was very magnanimous of you to offer the collaboration.
所以我认为你们提供合作是非常慷慨的。
So I'm going to tell this lab whose name I can't pronounce, please accept the collaboration.
所以我要告诉这个我叫不出来名字的实验室，请接受合作。
Then we can invite everyone on here-
然后我们就可以邀请大家来到这里——
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
for a round table.
圆桌会议。
I appreciate that you shared that story, and I know a number of other people will for a number of reasons.
我很感激你分享这个故事，而且我知道其他很多人也会出于多种原因分享这个故事。
I have a couple more questions.
我还有几个问题。
And I realize, and thank you by the way, for your willingness and stamina, because it is probably 1:00 a.m.
我意识到，顺便说一句，谢谢你的意愿和耐力，因为现在可能是凌晨 1:00。
Israel time now, and you just arrived.
现在是以色列时间，而您刚刚抵达。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Later, I think.
后来，我想。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But you're doing terrifically well.
但你做得非常好。
So if you'll indulge us just a touch further, there are two topics that I want to touch on, and if you want to cover these in shorter thrift, that's fine, although don't feel any obligation to.
因此，如果您愿意进一步包容我们，我想谈谈两个主题，如果您想用更短的节俭来讨论这些主题，那很好，尽管您没有义务这样做。
The first one is, I think most people are familiar with the scent of food or foods as a signal of the nutrient contents of those foods.
第一个是，我认为大多数人都熟悉食物或食物的气味，作为这些食物营养成分的信号。
An orange that smells great or the smell of something baking, it suggests something about the contents and quality of that food.
闻起来很香的橙子或烘烤食物的气味，它暗示了该食物的内容和质量。
After all, you and I both separately lived in the same apartment in Berkeley above The Cheese Board, which-
毕竟，你和我分别住在伯克利奶酪板楼上的同一间公寓里，那里——
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Oh, it's crazy.
哦，太疯狂了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
the smell of cheese wafting up through The Cheese Board is something I will never forget.
奶酪板里飘来的奶酪香味是我永远不会忘记的。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And the breads, never forget it.
还有面包，永远不要忘记它。
Amazing bread and-
很棒的面包和-
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
I don't know if you've conveyed that clearly enough to listeners or watchers-
我不知道你是否已经足够清楚地向听众或观众传达了这一点——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, the probability is-
不，概率是——
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
...
...
that we really just discovered that we lived in the same-
我们真的才发现我们住在同一个地方——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Exactly
正是如此
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
...
...
we've never met like this before.
我们以前从来没有这样见过面。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yep.
是的。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
And we lived in the same apartment.
我们住在同一间公寓里。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
What are-
什么是-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Are we clique friends?
我们是拉帮结派的朋友吗？
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
In a lingering way, I guess.
我想，以一种挥之不去的方式。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
Through the-
通过-
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Floorboards.
地板。
It had a great floor, that place.
那个地方有一个很棒的楼层。
It had a great wooden floor.
它有很棒的木地板。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, it was an amazing place.
是的，那是一个很棒的地方。
I lived there with my girlfriend for a year and a half, and then- It was an amazing place.
我和我女朋友在那里住了一年半，然后——那是一个很棒的地方。
We won't give out the address-
我们不会透露地址-
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
out of respect for the people that live there now.
出于对现在居住在那里的人们的尊重。
But do check out The Cheese Board if you're ever in Berkeley.
但如果您在伯克利，请一定要去奶酪委员会看看。
Their hours are weird, so you have to look online.
他们的营业时间很奇怪，所以你必须上网查一下。
But it's a unique place-
但这是一个独特的地方——
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
with great bread and cheese and some good flavors of pizza.
配上美味的面包和奶酪以及一些美味的披萨。
In any case, I'm wondering whether or not smell can signal things about the nutrient contents of foods in a way that's divorced from the smell that we are perceiving.
无论如何，我想知道气味是否可以以一种与我们感知到的气味不同的方式发出有关食物营养成分的信号。
So for instance, I could imagine, based on what you've told us about smell today, that I I don't know.
例如，根据你今天告诉我们的关于气味的内容，我可以想象，我不知道。
I smell a piece of meat cooking, and it smells great to me, and I think of it as, "Oh, that's so savory," and my mouth is watering and I love the smell of this.
我闻到一块肉在煮，对我来说闻起来很香，我想，“哦，那太好吃了，”我流口水了，我喜欢这个味道。
And I'm thinking, "Okay, this is protein and fat, and I love the taste of steak and a little bit of char," but that nature has co-opted that to ensure, or I should say increase the likelihood, that I will ingest some other thing that's in steak that has no odor but whose nutrient content is very important to me.
我在想，“好吧，这是蛋白质和脂肪，我喜欢牛排和一点点炭的味道”，但大自然已经选择了这一点，以确保，或者我应该说增加可能性，我会摄入牛排中的其他东西，这些东西没有气味，但其营养成分对我来说非常重要。
For instance, amino acids.
例如，氨基酸。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
Amino acids are essential to life, and yet we don't go around sniffing for amino acids.
氨基酸对生命至关重要，但我们不会四处嗅探氨基酸。
We go around sniffing for savoriness, umami-type tastes and things of that sort.
我们四处嗅探味道、鲜味以及诸如此类的东西。
So I could imagine a million different examples of this, in the same way I could imagine that the scent of somebody that we fall in love with or become romantically attached to or sexually attracted to is signaling all sorts of things about, sure, the potential for offspring of a particular immune status.
所以我可以想象一百万个不同的例子，就像我可以想象我们爱上或产生浪漫依恋或性吸引的某人的气味正在发出各种各样的信号，当然，关于特定免疫状态的后代的潜力。
That's a long-term game, but also something about pleasure and safety of a potential interaction.
这是一个长期的游戏，但也关乎潜在互动的乐趣和安全。
So what I'm asking here is about whether or not there are subconscious signals that the olfactory system has learned to seek, but learned to seek through more overt signals.
所以我在这里问的是嗅觉系统是否学会了寻找潜意识信号，但学会了通过更明显的信号来寻找。
Sort of the tip of the iceberg phenomenon.
有点像冰山一角现象。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So, I don't have a good answer for you, although I think it's a really good question.
所以，我没有一个好的答案给你，尽管我认为这是一个非常好的问题。
Or a good idea, in fact.
事实上，或者是个好主意。
So whether there's odor cues on nutrient value is a really good idea.
因此，是否有气味提示营养价值是一个非常好的主意。
Moreover, it's probably good to the extent that somebody probably did it, and I should know and don't.
此外，如果有人可能做了这件事，而我应该知道但我不知道，那么这可能是件好事。
We haven't done anything on that line, so I don't know.
我们没有在这方面做过任何事情，所以我不知道。
I don't know if the nutrient value of food is systematically encoded in odor.
我不知道食物的营养价值是否系统地编码在气味中。
If that's not been done, and I will check after our meeting today, then it should be.
如果还没有这样做，我会在今天的会议后检查，那么应该这样做。
It's a really good idea.
这真是个好主意。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
One of the reasons I ask this is because the obesity crisis in the US is a huge issue, and elsewhere.
我问这个问题的原因之一是因为肥胖危机在美国和其他地方都是一个巨大的问题。
And highly processed foods have a lot of things that are problematic, but one of the things that they don't have often is a direct relationship between the scent, the taste, and the nutrient content.
高度加工的食品有很多问题，但它们通常不存在的问题之一是气味、味道和营养成分之间的直接关系。
And I don't mean macronutrients, sugar, fat-- Excuse me.
我指的不是常量营养素、糖、脂肪——对不起。
Carbohydrates, fats, and proteins, but the vitamins and micronutrients, things that support the microbiome.
碳水化合物、脂肪和蛋白质，还有维生素和微量营养素，这些都是支持微生物群的物质。
Whereas foods that are not highly processed, for instance, meat or a piece of fruit, contain many micronutrients that are vital to aspects of our biology, but we don't go around sniffing for probiotics.
尽管未经高度加工的食物（例如肉类或水果）含有许多对我们的生物学至关重要的微量营养素，但我们不会四处寻找益生菌。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
I'll tell you one sort of factoid that may support your hypothesis here, and that is that there appears to be potential olfactory perceptual similarity in metabolic products.
我将告诉你一种可能支持你的假设的事实，那就是代谢产物似乎存在潜在的嗅觉相似性。
So something that's metabolized from something else has perceptual similarity across those two things.
因此，从其他事物代谢而来的事物在这两个事物之间具有感知相似性。
So metabolic cascades play into the coding of olfactory space, and that is consistent with the direction you're implying.
因此，代谢级联会影响嗅觉空间的编码，这与您暗示的方向一致。
But again, I don't know of a direct test of nutritional value in smell.
但同样，我不知道通过气味来直接测试营养价值。
And again, the fact that I don't know doesn't mean, of course, that it doesn't exist, and in this case, I would suspect that it should exist in scientific press, and if not there, then with the companies that have vested interest in this, which are many.
再说一遍，我不知道的事实当然并不意味着它不存在，在这种情况下，我怀疑它应该存在于科学媒体中，如果不存在，那么也应该存在于对此有既得利益的公司中，这些公司有很多。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Briefly share, just-
简单分享一下，只是——
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Please.
请。
An amusing anecdote to share with you is that we've received two independent companies who have turned to our lab recently, asking for help to bring odor to engineered meat.
与您分享的一个有趣的轶事是，我们最近收到两家独立公司向我们的实验室求助，请求帮助为工程肉带来气味。
That's a growing thing.
这是一个不断增长的事情。
And all these meats that are-
所有这些肉都是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, boy.
哦，男孩。
You had to bring it up.
你必须提出来。
This audience is going to be very polarized along the lines of engineered meat.
这些观众对于人造肉的看法将会非常两极分化。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You're not promoting.
你不是在推销。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Oh, no, I'm agnostic.
哦，不，我是不可知论者。
But we've had two companies turn to us and say, "Look, we have this great product, but it just doesn't smell like meat, so help us make it smell like meat."
但有两家公司向我们求助，说：“看，我们有这个很棒的产品，但它闻起来不像肉，所以请帮助我们让它闻起来像肉。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Interesting.
有趣。
The reason it's so polarizing is that anything related to nutrition on social media is a total barbed wire topic.
之所以如此两极分化，是因为社交媒体上任何与营养相关的话题都是铁丝网话题。
We've had experts-
我们有专家——
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Okay
好的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
on nutrition come on here, we'll have more, but-
关于营养，来吧，我们会有更多，但是-
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
I know nothing about nutrition
我对营养一无所知
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
don't worry, you're safe.
别担心，你很安全。
No, don't worry.
不，别担心。
No, he's not promoting this.
不，他不是在宣传这个。
He hasn't even said whether or not he's going to help them out.
他甚至没有说他是否会帮助他们。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
No. We're not, actually.
不，实际上我们不是。
No, because it didn't happen.
不，因为它没有发生。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, whether or not those engineered meats are yum, yuck, or meh is a personal issue to people in terms of taste.
不，这些工程肉是否好吃、恶心或无聊，对于人们的口味来说是个人问题。
Whether or not they are better for, neutral, or worse for you and the planet than, given the ingredients that are required, that's a whole world we'll avoid now.
无论它们对你和地球来说是更好、中立还是更坏，考虑到所需的成分，这都是我们现在要避免的世界。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
I will, but I'll take the opportunity to highlight something related, maybe, because on what we were saying on the scale.
我会的，但我会借此机会强调一些相关的事情，也许是因为我们在规模上所说的。
I'll take the opportunity to dispel another misconception about olfaction.
我将借此机会消除另一个关于嗅觉的误解。
There's this common notion that our sense of smell is incredibly subjective, and that what you might like in a smell, I will not like in a smell, and that we all have our own totally subjective world of olfaction.
有一个普遍的观念，即我们的嗅觉是非常主观的，你可能喜欢某种气味，我不会喜欢某种气味，而且我们都有自己完全主观的嗅觉世界。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think I know the study you're going to tell me.
我想我知道你要告诉我的研究。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
There are many.
有很多。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The cross-cultural similarity.
跨文化的相似性。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
There are many.
有很多。
That is utterly untrue.
这是完全不真实的。
Many, not only from my lab, there are many from many labs.
很多，不仅来自我的实验室，还有很多来自许多实验室。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Please clarify for those that don't follow this literature.
请为那些不遵循该文献的人澄清。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So humans are incredibly similar to one another in their olfactory perception, and this is in contrast to what most people think.
因此，人类的嗅觉彼此极其相似，这与大多数人的想法相反。
So why is there this misconception?
那么为什么会有这样的误解呢？
The misconception is there for two reasons.
存在这种误解有两个原因。
First of all, or for several reasons, but two stand out.
首先，或者有几个原因，但有两个原因很突出。
First of all, we're attracted by outliers because I'll tell somebody, look, for example, olfactory pleasantness is highly correlated amongst humans.
首先，我们被异常值所吸引，因为我会告诉某人，例如，嗅觉愉悦度在人类之间高度相关。
And let's first put this in numbers.
让我们首先用数字来表示。
You'll take a bunch of humans and a bunch of odorants and have them rate pleasantness.
你将带着一群人和一群气味剂，让他们对愉悦度进行评分。
The correlation across the humans will be about .8.
人类之间的相关性约为 0.8。
That's incredibly high.
这是令人难以置信的高。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What you think is pleasant, I think is pleasant.
你认为愉快的事，我也认为愉快。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Now, why does that go against what culturally people think?
现在，为什么这与文化上人们的想法相悖呢？
For two reasons.
有两个原因。
First of all, we're attracted or biased by outliers, but that shows, in fact, the result.
首先，我们会被异常值所吸引或产生偏见，但这实际上表明了结果。
What do I mean?
我是什么意思？
So you'll tell somebody, "Look, people are very similar in their pleasantness estimates." And they'll say, "No, that can't be.
所以你会告诉别人，“看，人们对愉悦度的估计非常相似。”他们会说：“不，那不可能。
I love cilantro, and my girlfriend hates the smell of cilantro." Or, and there are a few classic examples there.
我喜欢香菜，而我女朋友讨厌香菜的味道。”或者，那里有一些经典的例子。
Guava is another polarizing odor.
番石榴是另一种两极分化的气味。
So there are a few polarizing odors, and that's true.
所以有一些两极分化的气味，这是事实。
So that's true that half of the population loves the smell of cilantro and half hates it, half loves guava, half hates it.
所以确实有一半人喜欢香菜的味道，一半人讨厌它的味道，一半人喜欢番石榴，一半人讨厌它。
That's true.
这是真的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Microwave popcorn.
微波炉爆米花。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
However, I assure you that you can come to our lab.
不过，我向你保证你可以来我们的实验室。
We have about 1,000 odorants in our lab.
我们的实验室里有大约 1,000 种气味剂。
We won't smell the thousand.
我们不会闻到一千的味道。
But I assure you, take 100 odorants from our mixtures in labs.
但我向你保证，从我们实验室的混合物中取出 100 种气味剂。
And we'll smell them, and out of the hundred odors, 90 Will totally agree on.
我们会闻它们的味道，在一百种气味中，有 90 个人会完全同意。
And including universe.
还包括宇宙。
Nobody will say they like the smell of feces or fecal smells, and everybody will say they like the smell of rose and flowery smells.
没有人会说他们喜欢粪便的气味或粪便的气味，每个人都会说他们喜欢玫瑰的气味和花香。
There will be rare exceptions.
会有罕见的例外。
Again, the correlation is about 0.8 across individuals.
同样，个体之间的相关性约为 0.8。
So on 90 of 100 will usually be in high agreement, then five odorants will be in sort of intermediate agreement, and yes, there'll be the five odorants that we're in total disagreement on.
因此，100 种气味中的 90 种通常会高度一致，然后有 5 种气味剂会处于中等程度的一致，是的，会有 5 种气味剂我们完全不同意。
But I ask you, if we agree on 95 and disagree on five, are we the same or are we different?
但我问你，如果我们在 95 点上意见一致，在 5 点上意见不同，我们是相同还是不同？
We're the same.
我们是一样的。
They're just outliers to this rule.
他们只是这条规则的异常值。
And so one reason is this issue of outliers attract how we think about things, but no, we're actually much more similar than what we think.
因此，原因之一是异常值问题吸引了我们对事物的思考方式，但事实并非如此，我们实际上比我们想象的要相似得多。
And the second thing that drives this cultural effect is our poor application of language to olfaction.
造成这种文化效应的第二个因素是我们对语言和嗅觉的糟糕应用。
So, in other sensory systems, we develop with anchors.
所以，在其他感觉系统中，我们是用锚点来开发的。
So since you're a little kid, your mother shows you a cow and says, "What does a cow do?" "Moo." And we all know moo.
所以，当你还是个小孩子的时候，你的妈妈就会给你看一头牛，然后问：“牛是做什么的？” “哞。”我们都知道哞。
And "What color is this?" Well, this is kind of an odd black, but it's black.
还有“这是什么颜色？”嗯，这是一种奇怪的黑色，但它就是黑色。
Or, "What color is that?" It's red.
或者，“那是什么颜色？”它是红色的。
So you have these anchors.
所以你有了这些锚点。
But as you well know, the red that I'm seeing is not necessarily the red that you're seeing.
但正如你所知，我看到的红色不一定是你看到的红色。
We just both know to call that red.
我们都知道把它称为红色。
And since you say red and I say red, I think, wow, we're seeing the same thing.
既然你说红色，我也说红色，我想，哇，我们看到了同样的事情。
But no, we're not seeing the same thing.
但不，我们没有看到同样的事情。
And in odor, we don't have those anchors.
而在气味方面，我们没有这些锚点。
From childhood, our mom doesn't tell us, "So what's this smell and what's that smell?" And so we don't have these language anchors that make us think that we're perceiving the same thing.
从小到大，妈妈都不会告诉我们：“这是什么味道，那是什么味道？”所以我们没有这些语言锚让我们认为我们正在感知同样的事情。
Now, how can you quantify that?
现在，你如何量化这一点？
The most important term in measuring sensory systems is similarity.
测量感觉系统中最重要的术语是相似性。
That's the measure.
这就是措施。
So let's say we take 10 odorants and I have you rate all the pairwise similarities.
假设我们采用 10 种气味剂，我让您评价所有成对的相似性。
So you end up with 45 numbers.
所以你最终得到 45 个数字。
So how similar is one to two, one to three, one to four, and all the possible pairwise similarities.
那么一比二、一比三、一比四以及所有可能的成对相似性有多相似。
Let's say you rate similarity from one, which is totally dissimilar, to 100, exactly the same.
假设您对相似度进行评分，从 1（完全不同）到 100（完全一样）。
So now I have a similarity matrix that describes Andrew's perception of smell.
所以现在我有一个相似矩阵来描述安德鲁的气味感知。
Based on these 10 odorants that I selected.
基于我选择的这 10 种气味剂。
Now I can run my similarity matrix, and then I can see if the similarity matrix are correlated.
现在我可以运行我的相似度矩阵，然后我可以查看相似度矩阵是否相关。
And then we've gotten rid of the issue of names and odors.
然后我们就摆脱了名字和气味的问题。
It doesn't matter if I'll call this lemon and this orange, and you call this sweet potato and this marshmallow.
如果我称这个为柠檬和这个橙子，而你称这个为红薯和这个棉花糖，都没关系。
It doesn't matter.
没关系。
If I think that these two are highly similar and you agree, and I think that these two are very different and you agree, we perceive the world in the same way if our similarity matrices are aligned.
如果我认为这两者高度相似并且您同意，并且我认为这两者非常不同并且您同意，那么如果我们的相似性矩阵对齐，我们就会以相同的方式感知世界。
And what's nice about that is that then you can do that for vision, audition, and olfaction in a common group.
这样做的好处是，你可以在一个共同的群体中对视觉、听觉和嗅觉进行同样的操作。
And you can see where we're more like each other or not.
你可以看出我们在哪些方面比较相似或不同。
And we've done that for color vision, olfaction, and tonal audition.
我们已经在色觉、嗅觉和音调听觉方面做到了这一点。
Okay?
好的？
And we are most dissimilar in color vision.
我们在色觉方面最为不同。
Okay?
好的？
In color vision, the variance is about 100%.
在色觉中，方差约为 100%。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Amazing.
太棒了。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
It's-
这是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's quite different.
那是完全不同的。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
And there's tons of literature on this.
关于这一点有大量的文献。
Tons of it.
大量的。
And in olfaction and audition, they're about the same.
在嗅觉和听觉上，它们几乎是一样的。
So we're not different, we're very similar.
所以我们没有什么不同，我们非常相似。
We're just very poor at appreciating this.
我们只是很不善于欣赏这一点。
And mind you, not that there's not variability.
请注意，并不是说没有可变性。
There is variability.
存在可变性。
And of course, the system is malleable, as all sensory systems are, so you can learn to like an odor, and that will change you, and learn to dislike an odor.
当然，这个系统是可塑的，就像所有的感觉系统一样，所以你可以学会喜欢某种气味，这会改变你，也可以学会不喜欢某种气味。
But just the way you can learn to like a sound or dislike a sound.
但这就像您可以学习喜欢或不喜欢某种声音一样。
So this doesn't take away from the hardwired link of a structure to its perception that they're malleable.
因此，这并没有消除结构与其可塑性的感知之间的硬连线联系。
And we're not very variable.
而且我们的变化不大。
We're actually kind of similar.
我们其实有点相似。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's a perfect segue to the question I have next, which is if, in general, people perceive certain odors similarly, you could imagine that odors could be manufactured, co-opted, et cetera, in order to elicit richer sensory experiences and drive choice-making.
这是对我接下来的问题的完美衔接，即如果一般来说，人们对某些气味有类似的感知，你可以想象可以制造、选择气味等等，以引发更丰富的感官体验并推动做出选择。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's obvious at the level of the smell of a hot dog stand or freshly baked bread, et cetera, but what I'm talking about here, and I'd like to ask you about, is doing this at scale, and scientist geeks like to say in silico, through computers.
这在热狗摊或新鲜出炉的面包等气味的水平上是显而易见的，但我在这里谈论的是，我想问你的是，大规模地这样做，科学家极客喜欢通过计算机在计算机中说。
So for a long time now, there's been this idea that there will soon be Google Smell.
所以很长一段时间以来，人们一直认为 Google Smell 很快就会出现。
Not to call out Google as the only search engine, but DuckDuckGo Smell, for those of you that don't want to hear smell-
并不是说 Google 是唯一的搜索引擎，而是 DuckDuckGo Smell，对于那些不想听到气味的人来说 -
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
ChatGPT smell.
ChatGPT 气味。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
ChatGPT, and on and on.
ChatGPT，等等。
In other words, visual information is sent through computer interfaces-
换句话说，视觉信息是通过计算机接口发送的——
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
as is auditory information.
听觉信息也是如此。
Not so much haptic somatosensory, although it can.
尽管可以，但触觉体感并不那么重要。
Our lab uses VR.
我们的实验室使用 VR。
It can be done.
这是可以做到的。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But it hasn't really taken hold.
但它还没有真正扎根。
However, smell being such a rich source of behavioral and hormonal and other sorts of deep information that can drive people into yum, yuck, or meh-type decision-making-
然而，气味是行为、荷尔蒙和其他种类深层信息的丰富来源，可以驱使人们做出好吃、恶心或无聊的决策——
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
seems like an amazing candidate.
看起来是一个了不起的候选人。
So what is your experience with generating smells in silico in computers?
那么，您在计算机中通过计算机模拟产生气味的经验是怎样的呢？
And here, folks, for those of you that aren't catching on to this, and I don't expect that everyone would, because what we're really alluding to here is the idea that you'll put into a search engine "blueberry pancakes recipe," and that not only will you get photos of those blueberry pancakes and a recipe, but you will get the hopefully validated odor of those pancakes and that recipe coming at you in real-time through the computer.
在这里，各位，对于那些没有明白这一点的人来说，我不希望每个人都能明白这一点，因为我们在这里真正提到的是你将“蓝莓煎饼食谱”输入搜索引擎的想法，你不仅会得到那些蓝莓煎饼和食谱的照片，而且你会得到那些煎饼的经过验证的气味和通过计算机实时发送给你的食谱。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
So I'll start off answering from the name you threw out there, Google.
所以我将从你在那里抛出的名字开始回答，谷歌。
So probably about five years ago, Google had an April Fools' spoof.
大概是在五年前，谷歌搞了一场愚人节恶搞活动。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, right.
哦，对了。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
And they put out this video of Google Smell, okay?
他们发布了 Google Smell 的视频，好吗？
And it had all these classic sales images of holding up your phone to a rose and it generating rose and all these things, right?
它有所有这些经典的销售图像，将你的手机举到玫瑰上，它会生成玫瑰以及所有这些东西，对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
So Google is now trying to do that.
所以谷歌现在正在尝试这样做。
And they just published-- I know they've been trying to do it for a while.
他们刚刚发表了——我知道他们已经尝试这样做有一段时间了。
They visited our lab.
他们参观了我们的实验室。
But they just sort of went public with this, really just about a month ago or something, that they have this offshoot startup, I think it's called Osmo or something like that, that started off with a ridiculous sum of money for a startup.
但他们只是公开了这一点，真的就在一个月前或者什么的，他们有一个分支初创公司，我认为它被称为 Osmo 或类似的东西，这家初创公司以一笔可笑的资金开始。
I don't know, tons of money.
我不知道，很多钱。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There's a lot of money in that world.
那个世界上有很多钱。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
In Google, yeah.
在谷歌，是的。
To digitize smell.
将气味数字化。
And there are other companies that are trying to do this as well.
还有其他公司也在尝试这样做。
And we've been talking now for quite a while about our lab's chemosignaling work, but actually half of our lab is devoted to this question of ultimately digitizing smell.
我们现在已经谈论我们实验室的化学信号工作有一段时间了，但实际上我们实验室的一半致力于最终数字化气味的问题。
And so this is a very, very active field of research.
所以这是一个非常非常活跃的研究领域。
And I'll say one thing that dovetails with what you were talking about before, in many ways, COVID is going to be one of the best things that ever happened to olfaction research, because suddenly all the world is-- Or all the world.
我要说的一件事与你之前所说的相吻合，在很多方面，新冠病毒将成为嗅觉研究中发生过的最好的事情之一，因为突然之间，整个世界都——或者说整个世界。
Lots of people are very cognizant of the importance of smell, and smell is way up there in people's awareness because of COVID.
很多人都非常认识到气味的重要性，而且由于新冠疫情，气味在人们的意识中得到了很大的提升。
And this is driving a renaissance of olfaction research, and awareness to olfaction as something that's worth paying attention to.
这正在推动嗅觉研究的复兴，并让人们意识到嗅觉是值得关注的东西。
And our lab has been involved in this way, in this effort for a long time, where the initial part of this effort is in fact to develop a set of rules that link odor structure to odor perception.
我们的实验室长期以来一直以这种方式参与这项工作，这项工作的最初部分实际上是开发一套将气味结构与气味感知联系起来的规则。
That is, the going saying was that until recently, at least, there was no scientist, or perfumer for that matter, who could look at the structure of a novel molecular mixture and predict for you how it will smell, or smell something and tell you what its molecular structure could or should be.
也就是说，流行的说法是，至少直到最近，还没有科学家或调香师能够观察一种新型分子混合物的结构，并为你预测它的气味，或者闻到某种东西，然后告诉你它的分子结构可能是什么或应该是什么。
So in contrast, let's say, to trivial color vision, let's say.
相比之下，我们可以说，与微不足道的色觉形成鲜明对比。
So if you know what the wavelength of the light is, you more or less know what perceived color it's going to be.
因此，如果您知道光的波长，您或多或少就知道感知到的颜色是什么。
Of course, there are exceptions to that and all sorts of issues, but as a rule, you would know.
当然，也有例外和各种问题，但作为一项规则，你会知道的。
Or the other way around, you can generate a wavelength, and you would know at what color of light it's going to be perceived.
或者反过来，你可以生成一个波长，然后你就会知道它会被感知到什么颜色的光。
So that's an example of where the rules linking structure, in this case measured by wavelength, and perception, in this case experienced as color, the rules are well known.
这是一个例子，说明连接结构的规则（在这种情况下通过波长测量）和感知（在这种情况下体验为颜色），这些规则是众所周知的。
In olfaction, we didn't have that until recently.
在嗅觉方面，直到最近我们才拥有这种感觉。
But over the past few years, a bunch of labs have really pushed this forward.
但在过去的几年里，许多实验室确实推动了这一进程。
There's a bunch of work out of Leslie Vosshall's lab at Rockefeller, and Andreas Keller working with Leslie, who've done a lot of work on this front.
洛克菲勒的 Leslie Vosshall 实验室做了很多工作，Andreas Keller 与 Leslie 一起在这方面做了很多工作。
Also work from Joel Mainland's lab at Monell.
也在莫内尔大学乔尔·梅兰德实验室工作。
And fair discovery, Joel was a graduate student in our lab.
公平的发现，乔尔是我们实验室的研究生。
And recently in our lab, we've had, and I hope this doesn't come across as overly arrogant, but we've had a sort of mini breakthrough on this front.
最近在我们的实验室里，我希望这不会显得过于傲慢，但我们在这方面取得了某种小小的突破。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
To call something a mini breakthrough is far from arrogant.
将某件事称为“微小突破”绝非傲慢。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
And this is a paper led by Arun Ravia from our lab, and Kobi Snitz, also a major contributor there.
这是一篇由我们实验室的 Arun Ravia 和该实验室的主要贡献者 Kobi Snitz 领导的论文。
A paper published in "Nature" about a year and a half ago in the height of a COVID pandemic, so nobody really, or I won't say nobody, but it wasn't noticed in the way it otherwise would've been.
大约一年半前，在新冠疫情最严重的时候，《自然》杂志上发表了一篇论文，所以没有人真正关注，或者我不会说没有人关注，但它并没有像其他情况那样受到关注。
It was published in "Nature," really on a week where the whole world was going berserk over COVID.
这篇文章发表在《自然》杂志上，当时正值全世界都在为新冠病毒而疯狂的一周。
And in this paper, we develop an algorithmic framework where we can predict the perceptual similarity of any two molecular mixtures with very, very high accuracy.
在本文中，我们开发了一个算法框架，可以以非常非常高的准确度预测任何两种分子混合物的感知相似性。
So if you give me two molecular mixtures, I can predict how similar you will smell them to be.
因此，如果你给我两种分子混合物，我可以预测你闻到的气味有多么相似。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Okay?
好吧？
Now, not only could we predict that, but we could design it.
现在，我们不仅可以预测它，而且可以设计它。
So we can generate mixtures with known similarities.
因此我们可以生成具有已知相似性的混合物。
And the result was highlighted, and you'll appreciate this coming from vision, is that using our algorithmic solution, we generated olfactory metamers.
结果被突出显示，您会从视觉中欣赏到这一点，即使用我们的算法解决方案，我们生成了嗅觉同色异构体。
So we measured mixtures completely non-overlapping in their molecular structure, but they smell exactly the same.
因此，我们测量了分子结构完全不重叠的混合物，但它们的气味完全相同。
Okay?
好的？
Now, if you would come to a classic perfumer, or most classic perfumers, and tell them that you can generate two mixtures with zero molecules in common but smell exactly the same, they would tell you no. And yet we did, and anybody can recreate them.
现在，如果您去找一位经典调香师或大多数经典调香师，并告诉他们您可以生成两种共有零个分子但气味完全相同的混合物，他们会告诉您不行。然而我们做到了，任何人都可以重新创造它们。
This is simple, actually.
其实这很简单。
And in the paper, we do a few things, like we generate a metamer for Chanel No. 5.
在论文中，我们做了一些事情，比如为 Chanel No.5 生成同色异谱。
So you don't like perfume, so this one-- But so we generate a Chanel No. 5 with no component from Chanel No. 5 in it.
所以你不喜欢香水，所以这个——但是我们生成了一款不含香奈儿5号成分的香奈儿5号香水。
Okay.
好的。
And we actually have a publicly available website.
我们实际上有一个公开网站。
I'll give it to you for your links if you want.
如果您愿意，我会将其提供给您作为链接。
Anybody can do this.
任何人都可以做到这一点。
We built an engine that you can generate these metamers.
我们构建了一个可以生成这些条件等色的引擎。
Now, once we did that, in a way, we've generated the infrastructure for digitizing smell.
现在，一旦我们做到了这一点，在某种程度上，我们就已经生成了数字化气味的基础设施。
Because again, what our algorithm predicts, our framework predicts, is similarity.
因为我们的算法、我们的框架所预测的是相似性。
But in a way, that's enough for you.
但在某种程度上，这对你来说已经足够了。
Why is that enough?
为什么这就足够了？
We have a map of 4,000 molecules.
我们有 4,000 个分子的图谱。
For each one, we know their perceived smell.
对于每一种动物，我们都知道它们感知到的气味。
Now you can make up any mixture you want for me.
现在你可以为我配制任何你想要的混合物。
I can project it into that map and measure its pairwise distance from all the points in the map.
我可以将其投影到该地图中并测量其与地图中所有点的成对距离。
If it falls on lemon, then what you generated smells like lemon.
如果它落在柠檬上，那么你生成的东西就会闻起来像柠檬。
And if it falls on tomato, then what you generated smells like tomato.
如果它落在番茄上，那么你生成的东西就会闻起来像番茄。
So we now solved that problem.
所以我们现在解决了这个问题。
We can predict the odor of any molecular mixture.
我们可以预测任何分子混合物的气味。
We can say how it's going to smell.
我们可以说出它的气味如何。
What we can do is then find a set of components, which we call odor primaries, that can be used to mix any odor that you can perceive.
然后我们可以做的是找到一组成分，我们称之为气味原色，可用于混合您可以感知的任何气味。
And that's what we're working on now.
这就是我们现在正在努力的事情。
And about a month ago, so this is in collaboration with a lab of Jonathan Williams at Max Planck in Munich.
大约一个月前，这是与慕尼黑马克斯·普朗克的乔纳森·威廉姆斯实验室合作的。
Jonathan Williams is an atmospheric chemist, but he's really good at using GC-MS, these tools that measure molecules.
乔纳森·威廉姆斯 (Jonathan Williams) 是一位大气化学家，但他非常擅长使用 GC-MS 这些测量分子的工具。
So Jonathan Williams measured odorants in Germany, transmitted the information to us over IP.
因此，乔纳森·威廉姆斯在德国测量了气味剂，并通过 IP 将信息传输给我们。
We fed that into our algorithmic framework and recreated it from a device that mixes primaries.
我们将其输入到我们的算法框架中，并从混合原色的设备中重新创建它。
And we tried to do four different odorants in our proof of concept test.
我们在概念验证测试中尝试了四种不同的气味剂。
One of them was rose, and we failed at recreating rose.
其中之一是玫瑰，但我们未能重现玫瑰。
We, in fact, recreated something that had a percept, but most people perceived it as bubblegum.
事实上，我们重新创造了一些有感知的东西，但大多数人认为它是泡泡糖。
The second one we tried to do was anise, and we failed at recreating anise, and most people said it was cherry, which is not very far, but it failed.
我们尝试做的第二个是茴香，我们未能重新创造茴香，大多数人都说是樱桃，距离不是很远，但它失败了。
The third was gasoline, and we were slightly but significantly better than chance at recreating gasoline.
第三个是汽油，我们在重新制造汽油方面比机会稍微但明显好一些。
And the fourth was violets, and 15 of 16 people said violets.
第四个是紫罗兰，16 个人中有 15 个说紫罗兰。
So the first odor ever transmitted over IP is violets, and we did that last month.
因此，第一个通过 IP 传输的气味是紫罗兰，我们上个月就做到了。
Of course, this is not anything near a practical solution.
当然，这远不是一个实际的解决方案。
The device that Jonathan was using to measure is a $1.5 million device, bigger than this table.
乔纳森用来测量的设备价值 150 万美元，比这张桌子还要大。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's right.
没错。
I remember when VCRs, half the audience won't even know what that is, but VCRs were this big.
我记得当录像机出现时，一半的观众甚至不知道那是什么，但录像机就这么大。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So we're all good.
所以我们都很好。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm all good with the prediction that-
我对这个预测很满意——
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
I'm just saying-
我只是说——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
things will come down in size and cost.
东西的尺寸和成本都会下降。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
I'm just saying, don't hold your breath for this to be on your table tomorrow.
我只是说，不要屏息以待明天这个问题就会出现在你的桌面上。
And again, all we have in hand is this very initial proof of concept.
再说一次，我们手头上所拥有的只是这个最初的概念证明。
It's not even yet close to being a paper we are submitting because there's still lots of work to be done.
它甚至还没有接近成为我们要提交的论文，因为还有很多工作要做。
But we're on the path.
但我们正在路上。
We're on the path, and Google will probably beat us to it.
我们正在这条路上，谷歌可能会比我们先一步。
They got a lot more-
他们得到的还有很多——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I don't know.
我不知道。
You seem pretty dogged in there.
你在那里看起来很顽强。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Yeah, but they have so much more resources that at this stage-- And they've already published two papers from that effort that are good.
是的，但他们在这个阶段拥有更多的资源——而且他们已经发表了两篇很好的论文。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They definitely have a lot of dollars and a lot of people, a lot of good neuroscience and other biology, engineering graduate students, and post-docs go there.
他们肯定有很多美元和很多人，很多优秀的神经科学和其他生物学、工程研究生和博士后都去那里。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But the real question is, are they getting the best people?
但真正的问题是，他们是否得到了最优秀的人才？
Because as you and I both know, in science, oftentimes it's small groups of the very best and most creative people that can outrun and outgun large groups.
因为正如你我都知道的那样，在科学领域，往往是由最优秀、最有创造力的人组成的小团体能够超越大团体，并在枪械上胜过大团体。
And here, I don't have anything against Google, by the way.
顺便说一句，我对谷歌没有任何反对意见。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I use it all the time.
我一直用它。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
I'm not a betting man, but I would put my money on Google on this race.
我不是一个赌徒，但我会把我的钱押在谷歌的这场比赛上。
But I'll try and give them a run for their money.
但我会尽力与他们竞争。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There you go.
就这样吧。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Let's put it that way.
这么说吧。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, it seems like most of you just want to see the problem solved, regardless of who gets there first.
好吧，看来你们大多数人只是想看到问题得到解决，而不管谁先到达那里。
What I'll say is you better get going, Google, because Noam's being-
我要说的是，谷歌，你最好开始行动，因为诺姆正在——
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
I don't know
我不知道
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
he's humble, and he's dogged, so-
他很谦虚，而且很顽强，所以——
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
I don't know
我不知道
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
better get cracking.
最好开裂。
There, we just cost the weekends of and broke up the relationships of a bunch of scientists.
在那里，我们浪费了一群科学家的周末时间，并破坏了他们的关系。
I remember when I was a graduate student at Berkeley, I remember hearing there was a guy in our common friend, Irving Zucker's lab, that worked 100 hours a week.
我记得当我在伯克利读研究生时，我记得听说我们共同的朋友 Irving Zucker 的实验室里有一个人每周工作 100 个小时。
So I was like, "Oh, I'll work 102 hours a week," which was not a good choice, folks.
所以我想，“哦，我每周工作 102 小时”，伙计们，这不是一个好的选择。
In any case, it's abundantly clear that you're making progress here.
无论如何，很明显你正在这里取得进展。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Oh, we are.
哦，我们是。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I go to some of the earlier discussions we had, and I think we're not just talking about transferring recipes and smells of food, gasoline from the people watching the F1 race or something, but I'm thinking dating apps.
我回顾了我们之前进行的一些讨论，我认为我们不仅仅是在谈论从观看 F1 比赛的人们那里转移食谱和食物气味、汽油之类的东西，而且我正在考虑约会应用程序。
I'm thinking nowadays everyone knows that when you travel, and you want to see your family, your grandkids, or kids, you better to get on FaceTime and see them or Zoom, than to just hear their voice.
我想现在每个人都知道，当你旅行时，如果你想见见你的家人、孙子或孩子，你最好通过 FaceTime 或 Zoom 与他们见面，而不是仅仅听到他们的声音。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Look-
看——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We're also talking about being able to smell them in real time
我们还谈论能够实时闻到它们的味道
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
...
...
I'll tell you more than that.
我会告诉你更多。
I'll tell you more than that.
我会告诉你更多。
We're talking now of trying to achieve the olfactory equivalent of circa 1956 black and white TV, okay?
我们现在谈论的是尝试实现相当于 1956 年左右黑白电视的嗅觉，好吗？
Basically, right?
基本上，对吧？
I'm not dreaming, let's say, of being able to transmit to you the difference between a Cabernet or a Merlot, right?
比方说，我并不是梦想能够向您传达赤霞珠和梅洛之间的区别，对吗？
But if I can generate something that's vaguely wine, that will be an amazing success from my perspective, right?
但如果我能生产出一些有点像葡萄酒的东西，从我的角度来看，这将是一个惊人的成功，对吧？
But jump ahead in your imagination to 4K odor transmission Then medical diagnostics is what you want to be talking about.
但是，请尽情发挥您的想象力，实现 4K 气味传输 那么您想要谈论的就是医疗诊断。
Because this is over extension, but you can almost say that every disease will have an odor.
因为这是过度延伸，但你几乎可以说，每种疾病都会有气味。
Every disease is a specific metabolic process.
每种疾病都是一个特定的代谢过程。
Metabolic process have metabolites, metabolites have a smell.
代谢过程有代谢物，代谢物有气味。
Olfaction, once it's digitized and high resolution, which again, in our hands, it's not going to be.
嗅觉，一旦它被数字化和高分辨率，那么在我们手中，它就不再是了。
We're talking, in my retirement, maybe I'll read about this one day if I'll still have vision.
我们正在谈论，在我退休后，如果我仍然有远见的话，也许有一天我会读到这篇文章。
This is not close.
这并不接近。
But when olfaction digitization is brought to the equivalent of 4K of vision and audition that you have now, then it will be in medical diagnosis.
但是当嗅觉数字化达到相当于你现在拥有的4K视觉和听觉水平时，那么它将应用于医疗诊断。
You'll have, excuse me for the imagery, but you will have an electronic nose in your bathroom, each one of us will have in the toilet.
对不起，你会有这样的图像，但你的浴室里会有一个电子鼻，我们每个人的厕所里都会有一个。
And it will be doing diagnostics all the time.
并且它会一直进行诊断。
And that's where it's going to go.
这就是它要去的地方。
But again, not anywhere in the very close future.
但同样，在不久的将来不会有任何地方。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, it's certainly an exciting proposition, and I'm delighted that you and other groups who are so strong are working on it.
嗯，这当然是一个令人兴奋的提议，我很高兴您和其他如此强大的团队正在努力解决这个问题。
I really am.
我确实是。
Noam, I want to say thank you for your time today.
诺姆，我想说谢谢你今天抽出时间。
First of all, this was a tremendously interesting conversation.
首先，这是一次非常有趣的谈话。
We touched on so many things, hormones, smells, the architecture of the olfactory system.
我们接触了很多东西，荷尔蒙、气味、嗅觉系统的结构。
I know that people listening to this are realizing, but I'm going to say it anyway, what an incredible gift you've given us-
我知道听这个的人都意识到了，但无论如何我还是要说，你给了我们多么令人难以置信的礼物——
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Thank you
谢谢你
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
as a expert in this field, giving us this tour of the work that you and others, who you credit so generously, have done to elucidate this incredible system that we call olfaction and chemosensation.
作为这一领域的专家，让我们参观一下您和其他人（您如此慷慨地赞扬他们）所做的工作，以阐明这个令人难以置信的系统，我们称之为嗅觉和化学感觉。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Thanks.
谢谢。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Also just for the incredibly pioneering work that you've done.
也感谢您所做的令人难以置信的开创性工作。
I don't have many heroes in science.
我在科学领域没有很多英雄。
I have heroes outside of science and a few in science, but I'm going to purposely embarrass myself a little bit by saying that from the time I was at Berkeley and saw that experiment being done of people foraging, following scent trails, and then until I was a junior professor, I used that in my teaching slides in a class that I taught.
我有科学之外的英雄，也有一些科学界的英雄，但我会故意让自己有点尴尬，说从我在伯克利的时候起，看到人们进行觅食、追踪气味踪迹的实验，然后直到我成为一名初级教授，我在我所教的课堂上的教学幻灯片中使用了它。
That was sort of the early origins of this podcast in many way.
从很多方面来说，这就是这个播客的早期起源。
And over and over again, when your laboratory publishes papers, I find like, "This is super interesting, super cool," and I find myself telling everybody about it, and that's really what I do for a living, is I learn, and then I blab about it to the world.
一次又一次，当你的实验室发表论文时，我发现，“这太有趣了，太酷了”，我发现自己告诉每个人这件事，这就是我的谋生之道，我学习，然后我向世界大肆宣扬它。
So thank you so much for the work that you've done and the spirit that you bring to it.
非常感谢您所做的工作以及您为此带来的精神。
Whatever drives that spirit, as the great late Ben Barres used to say, keep going, because we are all benefiting tremendously.
正如已故伟大的本·巴雷斯（Ben Barres）曾经说过的那样，无论是什么驱动着这种精神，都要继续前进，因为我们都受益匪浅。
And I also just want to say that for people listening to this, the spirit of science is one of, as you mentioned, there's complex politics and all these things, but it's absolutely clear that you delight in the work you do.
我还想说，对于听到这个的人来说，科学精神是其中之一，正如你提到的，存在复杂的政治和所有这些事情，但绝对清楚的是你对你所做的工作感到高兴。
And so I delight in it.
所以我很喜欢它。
I'm grateful for it.
我对此很感激。
I'm grateful for your time today.
我很感谢您今天抽出时间。
And so on behalf of me and many, many people listening to this, I just want to extend a huge debt of gratitude.
因此，我谨代表我和许许多多听此讲话的人致以深深的谢意。
Thank you so much.
太感谢了。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Oh.
哦。
So I'm blushing.
所以我脸红了。
I don't know if this doesn't come across on the radio podcast, but thank you so much for very warm words.
我不知道这是否会在广播播客中出现，但非常感谢您的热情话语。
As you know, when you work in your lab, there's these moments where you suddenly discover that somebody cares a bit about it, and those are always very rewarding moments, because usually you function without that.
如您所知，当您在实验室工作时，有时您会突然发现有人关心它，而这些时刻总是非常有意义的，因为通常您无需这样做即可工作。
I guess that's one of the things you need to be a scientist, is to have the drive to work without that, because it comes only rarely.
我想成为一名科学家需要的事情之一就是拥有工作的动力，但没有动力，因为这种情况很少出现。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There's immense gratitude and appreciation for you and what you do from me, and now I know from a large segment of the world as well.
我对你以及你所做的一切表示极大的感激和赞赏，现在我也从世界上很多地方了解到了这一点。
So my only request is that you come back and tell us about the next results sometime not too long from now.
所以我唯一的请求是你在不久之后回来告诉我们接下来的结果。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Well, I'm going to catch you live now, although you have the power to edit this, so I guess that's not fair.
好吧，我现在要现场直播，尽管你有编辑这个的权力，所以我想这不公平。
But first you come visit us in Israel and tell us both about the science and the public science work you're doing, and then I'll come again.
但首先你来以色列拜访我们，告诉我们你正在做的科学和公共科学工作，然后我会再来。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
A good bargain, and I accept.
很划算，我接受了。
Delighted.
高兴极了。
Thank you so much.
太感谢了。
Dr. Noam Sobel:
诺姆·索贝尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Pleasure.
乐趣。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thank you for joining me for today's discussion about olfaction and chemosensation with Dr. Noam Sobel.
感谢您今天与我一起与诺姆·索贝尔博士讨论嗅觉和化学感觉。
If you'd like to learn more about the work in the Sobel Laboratory or read some of the papers described during today's episode, as well as learn about the current and future projects in the Sobel Laboratory, please go to the link provided in the show note caption.
如果您想了解有关索贝尔实验室工作的更多信息或阅读今天节目中描述的一些论文，以及了解索贝尔实验室当前和未来的项目，请访问节目说明标题中提供的链接。
If you're learning from and/or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel.
如果您正在学习和/或喜欢此播客，请订阅我们的 YouTube 频道。
That's a terrific zero-cost way to support us.
这是支持我们的绝佳零成本方式。
In addition, please subscribe to the podcast on both Spotify and Apple.
此外，请在 Spotify 和 Apple 上订阅该播客。
And on both Spotify and Apple, you can leave us up to a five-star review.
在 Spotify 和 Apple 上，您都可以给我们五星级的评价。
If you have questions for me or comments about the podcast or guests or topics that you'd like me to include in future Huberman Lab podcasts, please put those in the comments section on YouTube.
如果您对我有疑问，或者对播客、嘉宾或主题有任何意见，希望我在未来的 Huberman Lab 播客中包含这些内容，请将这些内容放入 YouTube 的评论部分。
I do read all the comments.
我确实阅读了所有评论。
Please also check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode.
另请查看今天节目开头和整个节目中提到的赞助商。
That's the best way to support this podcast.
这是支持这个播客的最佳方式。
Not so much on today's episode, but on many previous episodes of the Huberman Lab podcast, we discuss supplements.
今天的节目不多，但在 Huberman 实验室播客的许多以前的节目中，我们讨论了补充剂。
While supplements aren't necessary for everybody, many people derive tremendous benefit from them, for things like improving their sleep, their focus, and hormone support.
虽然补充剂并不是每个人都需要的，但许多人都从它们中获得了巨大的好处，例如改善睡眠、注意力集中和激素支持。
The Huberman Lab podcast is proud to have partnered with Momentous Supplements.
Huberman Lab 播客很荣幸与 Momentous Supplements 合作。
If you'd like to see the supplements discussed on the Huberman Lab podcast, please go to livemomentous, spelled O-U-S, so that's livemomentous.com/huberman.
如果您想查看 Huberman Lab 播客上讨论的补充剂，请访问 livemomentous，拼写为 O-U-S，即 livemomentous.com/huberman。
If you're not already following the Huberman Lab podcast on social media, we are hubermanlab on LinkedIn, Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram.
如果您还没有在社交媒体上关注 Huberman Lab 播客，请关注我们在 LinkedIn、Facebook、Twitter 和 Instagram 上的 hubermanlab。
And on all those accounts, I include information, some of which overlaps with content of the Huberman Lab podcast, but often which is distinct from information covered on the Huberman Lab podcast.
在所有这些帐户中，我都包含了信息，其中一些信息与胡伯曼实验室播客的内容重叠，但通常与胡伯曼实验室播客中涵盖的信息不同。
So again, it's hubermanlab on all social media platforms.
再说一遍，所有社交媒体平台上都是 hubermanlab。
If you haven't already subscribed to our newsletter, we have a zero-cost monthly newsletter.
如果您还没有订阅我们的时事通讯，我们有一份零成本的每月时事通讯。
It's called the Neural Network Newsletter, and it includes podcast summaries and toolkits or protocols for things like enhancing sleep, for exercise, for meditation, for dopamine, for focus, and many other topics.
它被称为神经网络通讯，其中包括播客摘要和工具包或协议，用于增强睡眠、锻炼、冥想、多巴胺、注意力和许多其他主题。
To sign up, you simply go to hubermanlab.com, go to the menu, and click on Newsletter, and provide your email.
要注册，您只需访问 hubermanlab.com，进入菜单，然后单击新闻通讯，然后提供您的电子邮件。
And I want to be clear that not only is the Neural Network Newsletter zero cost, we also do not share your email with anybody.
我想澄清的是，神经网络通讯不仅是零成本，而且我们也不会与任何人分享您的电子邮件。
Once again, I'd like to thank you for joining me for today's discussion about olfaction and chemosensation with Dr. Noam Sobel.
我要再次感谢您今天与诺姆·索贝尔博士一起参加有关嗅觉和化学感觉的讨论。
And last but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.
最后但并非最不重要的一点是，感谢您对科学的兴趣。