Dr. Maya Shankar: How to Shape Your Identity & Goals

Andrew Huberman: Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.

Andrew Huberman：欢迎来到 Huberman 实验室播客，我们在这里讨论科学和基于科学的日常生活工具。

I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.

我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。

Today, my guest is Dr. Maya Shankar.

今天，我的嘉宾是 Maya Shankar 博士。

Dr. Maya Shankar is a cognitive scientist who did her undergraduate training at Yale University, her PhD thesis as a Rhodes Scholar, and a postdoctoral fellowship also in cognitive science at Stanford University.

Maya Shankar 博士是一位认知科学家，她在耶鲁大学接受本科培训，以罗德学者的身份撰写博士学位论文，并在斯坦福大学获得认知科学博士后奖学金。

Dr. Shankar also served as a senior advisor to the White House, and she founded and served as the Chair of the White House Behavioral Science team.

尚卡博士还担任白宫高级顾问，她创立了白宫行为科学团队并担任主席。

Dr. Shankar is also the host of her own podcast, entitled A Slight Change of Plans.

香卡博士还是她自己的播客的主持人，题为“计划的轻微改变”。

And indeed, Dr. Shankar herself is no stranger to having to make major changes to one's life plans, as you'll learn today.

事实上，香卡博士本人对必须对自己的人生计划做出重大改变并不陌生，正如您今天将了解到的那样。

Prior to all of those incredible accomplishments that Dr. Shankar has achieved, she was a student at the Juilliard Conservatory of Music, preparing her life to become a professional concert violinist, but as you'll also soon learn, she then experienced a career-devastating injury, forcing herself to have to reframe everything about her life plans and her own identity.

在尚卡博士取得所有这些令人难以置信的成就之前，她是茱莉亚音乐学院的一名学生，为成为一名职业音乐会小提琴家做好准备，但您很快就会了解到，她随后经历了职业生涯毁灭性的伤害，迫使自己必须重新构建有关她的人生计划和自己身份的一切。

And that's really what we talk about today.

这就是我们今天讨论的真正内容。

We talk about identity.

我们谈论身份。

Not just Dr. Shankar's prior and current identities, but, of course, your identity.

不仅是香卡博士之前和当前的身份，当然还有你的身份。

We pose a number of questions geared toward getting you to ask, who am I really?

我们提出了一些问题，旨在让您问：我到底是谁？

Do my goals align with who I am and what I want?

我的目标与我是谁以及我想要什么一致吗？

Dr. Shankar shares with us the research on identity, goals, motivation, and plans, as well as many practical tools to answer those key questions that guide us down either the correct or incorrect trajectories in life.

香卡博士与我们分享了关于身份、目标、动机和计划的研究，以及许多实用工具来回答那些引导我们走上正确或不正确的人生轨迹的关键问题。

She shares with us, for instance, how to assess on paper goals of the sort that you would see on a CV.

例如，她与我们分享了如何评估您在简历中看到的那种书面目标。

So, which school, which job, which salary, which spouse, etc., etc. and how to relate those to the deeper feelings that relate to one's ability to continually pursue a given goal, knowing that it's the right goal for us.

那么，哪所学校、哪份工作、哪份薪水、哪位配偶等等，以及如何将这些与更深层次的感受联系起来，这些感受与一个人持续追求给定目标的能力有关，知道这对我们来说是正确的目标。

We also talk about the science of feelings, what they can and cannot tell us and when they should or should not serve as a compass for guiding our everyday and longer-term decisions.

我们还讨论情感的科学，它们可以告诉我们什么，不能告诉我们什么，以及它们何时应该或不应该作为指南针来指导我们的日常和长期决策。

By the end of today's episode, you will realize that Dr. Shankar is essentially handing you a science-supported roadmap for how to determine and assess your identity and goals and how one influences the other.

在今天的节目结束时，您将意识到香卡博士本质上是在为您提供一份有科学支持的路线图，用于如何确定和评估您的身份和目标以及其中一个如何影响另一个。

That is, how your identity influences your goals and how your goals influence your identity in becoming the person that you want to be.

也就是说，你的身份如何影响你的目标，以及你的目标如何影响你成为你想成为的人的身份。

Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.

在开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。

It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero-cost-to-consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public.

然而，我的愿望和努力的一部分是将有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本消费者信息带给公众。

In keeping with that theme, I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast.

为了与这个主题保持一致，我要感谢今天播客的赞助商。

Our first sponsor is Maui Nui Venison.

我们的第一个赞助商是 Maui Nui Venison。

Maui Nui Venison is the most nutrient-dense and delicious red meat available.

毛伊努伊鹿肉是营养最丰富、最美味的红肉。

I've spoken before on this podcast, in solo episodes and with guests about the need to get approximately 1 gram of high-quality protein per pound of body weight each day for optimal nutrition.

我之前曾在这个播客中、在个人节目中以及与嘉宾说过，每天每磅体重需要摄入大约 1 克优质蛋白质才能获得最佳营养。

Now, there are many different ways that one can do that, but a key thing is to make sure that you're not doing that by ingesting excessive calories.

现在，有很多不同的方法可以做到这一点，但关键是要确保您不会摄入过多的卡路里来做到这一点。

Maui Nui Venison has the highest density of quality protein per calorie, and it achieves that in delicious things like ground meats, venison steaks, jerky and bone broth.

茂宜岛鹿肉每卡路里的优质蛋白质密度最高，在碎肉、鹿肉排、肉干和骨汤等美味食品中也能达到这一水平。

I particularly like the ground venison.

我特别喜欢碎鹿肉。

I make those into venison burgers probably five times a week or more.

我可能每周将它们制作成鹿肉汉堡五次或更多。

I also like the jerky for its convenience, especially when I'm traveling or I'm especially busy with work and know that I'm getting an extremely nutrient dense, high-quality source of protein.

我也喜欢肉干，因为它很方便，尤其是当我在旅行或工作特别忙时，并且知道我正在获得营养极其丰富的优质蛋白质来源。

If you'd like to try Maui Nui Venison, you can go to mauinuivenison.com/huberman and get 20% off your first order.

如果您想尝试 Maui Nui 鹿肉，您可以访问 mauinuivenison.com/huberman，首单可享受 20% 的折扣。

Again, that's mauinuivenison.com/huberman to get 20% off.

再次强调，mauinuivenison.com/huberman 可以获得 20% 的折扣。

Today's episode is also brought to us by Eight Sleep.

今天的节目也是八觉给我们带来的。

Eight Sleep makes smart mattress covers with cooling, heating and sleep tracking capacity.

August Sleep 生产具有制冷、加热和睡眠跟踪功能的智能床垫套。

Sleep is the foundation of mental health, physical health and performance.

睡眠是心理健康、身体健康和表现的基础。

When we're sleeping well, and enough, everything in life goes much better.

当我们睡眠良好且充足时，生活中的一切都会变得更好。

And when we aren't sleeping well or long enough, things in life get worse.

当我们睡眠质量不佳或睡眠时间不够长时，生活中的事情就会变得更糟。

We know that from data.

我们从数据中知道这一点。

We all know that from our own experience.

我们都从自己的经验中知道这一点。

One of the essential things to getting a great night's sleep is that the temperature of your sleeping environment needs to be such that your core body temperature drops by about one to three degrees in order to fall and stay deeply asleep, and then increases by one to three degrees in order to wake up feeling refreshed in the morning.

获得一夜好眠的关键因素之一是，睡眠环境的温度需要使您的核心体温下降约一到三度，以便入睡并保持深度睡眠，然后升高一到三度，以便早上醒来时感觉神清气爽。

With Eight Sleep smart mattress covers, you can program the temperature of your sleeping environment so that it's ideally matched to your temperature needs.

借助八睡眠智能床垫套，您可以对睡眠环境的温度进行编程，使其完全符合您的温度需求。

I started sleeping on an Eight Sleep mattress cover a few years ago and it has completely transformed the quality of the sleep that I get.

几年前，我开始睡在八睡床罩上，它彻底改变了我的睡眠质量。

So much so that I actually loathe traveling because I don't have my Eight Sleep mattress cover when I travel.

以至于我实际上讨厌旅行，因为旅行时我没有八睡床垫套。

If you'd like to try Eight Sleep, you can go to eightsleep.com/huberman, and you'll save up to $150 off their Pod 3 cover.

如果您想尝试八睡眠，可以访问八睡眠.com/huberman，您可以在其 Pod 3 封面上节省高达 150 美元。

Eight Sleep currently ships in the U.S.A., Canada, U.K., select countries in the EU and Australia.

八睡眠目前在美国、加拿大、英国、欧盟和澳大利亚的部分国家/地区发货。

Again, that's eightsleep.com/huberman.

再说一遍，这是八睡眠.com/huberman。

And now for my discussion with Dr. Maya Shankar.

现在我与 Maya Shankar 博士进行了讨论。

Welcome.

欢迎。

I'm so happy you're here.

我很高兴你在这里。

Maya Shankar: Thanks, Andrew.

玛雅·香卡：谢谢，安德鲁。

It's great to be here.

很高兴来到这里。

Andrew Huberman: I have a lot of questions about identity, about goals and motivation, and about change in general, but I'd like to start off with identity, and I'd like to divide it into two segments.

安德鲁·胡伯曼：我对身份、目标和动机以及总体变化有很多疑问，但我想从身份开始，我想将其分为两个部分。

The first is how we form an identity, and we'll get into your story in, I hope, a bit or more of detail, but when we're younger, we tend to ask questions about ourselves, but also about the world around us.

第一个是我们如何形成身份，我希望我们会详细地讲述你的故事，但当我们年轻时，我们倾向于问关于我们自己的问题，但也关于我们周围的世界。

We want to learn what our parents do for a living, what the workers on the street are doing that for, etc. How much of our early identity do you think is formed by observation of what we are doing versus observation and labels of the people that are around us and closest to us?

我们想了解我们的父母以什么为生，街上的工人这样做是为了什么，等等。你认为我们早期的身份有多少是通过对我们正在做的事情的观察与对我们周围和最亲近的人的观察和标签形成的？

Maya Shankar: Yeah, it's a great question.

玛雅·香卡：是的，这是一个很好的问题。

I think a lot of it is based on what we see around us, and what we see is deemed successful and society privileges.

我认为这很大程度上取决于我们在周围看到的东西，以及我们所看到的被视为成功和社会特权的东西。

And there's a concept called identity foreclosure, where actually, when you're young, it's not just that you're observing what your parents are doing or what your peer group is doing, they impose their own structures on you.

有一个概念叫做“身份丧失”，实际上，当你年轻的时候，你不仅仅是在观察你的父母在做什么或你的同龄人在做什么，他们还将自己的结构强加给你。

And so what that can do is it can really limit your mindset in terms of what it is that you want to achieve and what it is that you're capable of achieving.

And so what that can do is it can really limit your mindset in terms of what it is that you want to achieve and what it is that you're capable of achieving.

And so oftentimes when people experience identity foreclosure, they have to take a lot of active steps to overcome whatever biases or limitations they experienced as a young person, given what they were projected to do or believe.

因此，当人们经历身份丧失抵押品赎回权时，他们必须采取许多积极的措施来克服他们作为年轻人所经历的任何偏见或限制，考虑到他们预计会做什么或相信什么。

So, identity, it can be about what you do.

所以，身份可以是关于你所做的事情。

It can also be about what you believe in the world, and so a lot of those belief systems are also passed down.

它也可能与你对世界的信仰有关，因此许多信仰体系也会被传承下来。

You inherit belief systems from the people that surround you when you're young, and if there's one thing that I've learned, it's that we tend to put a huge premium on what it is that we do.

当你年轻时，你会从周围的人那里继承信仰体系，如果说我学到了一件事，那就是我们往往非常重视我们所做的事情。

We tend to define ourselves by what we do.

我们倾向于通过我们所做的事情来定义自己。

And you can see this in the questions we ask young children.

您可以从我们向幼儿提出的问题中看到这一点。

What do you want to be when you grow up?

你长大后想做什么？

We never say, who do you want to be when you grow up?

我们从来没有说过，你长大后想成为谁？

What kind of person do you want to be when you grow up?

你长大后想成为一个什么样的人？

We say, what do you want to be?

我们说，你想成为什么？

And the consequence of that kind of mindset is that we end up anchoring our identities very firmly to what it is that we do.

这种心态的后果是，我们最终将自己的身份牢固地锚定在我们所做的事情上。

You were alluding to my personal story, right?

你是在暗示我的个人故事，对吗？

I started playing the violin when I was a little kid, six years old, became absolutely obsessed, and for the large part of my childhood, I was first and foremost a violinist.

当我还是个小孩子的时候，六岁的时候我就开始拉小提琴，并且对拉小提琴非常着迷，在我童年的大部分时间里，我首先是一名小提琴家。

I mean, if I had met you, I'd be like, hey, Andrew, I'm a violinist.

我的意思是，如果我遇见你，我会说，嘿，安德鲁，我是一名小提琴家。

And then the second up would be, I'm Maya.

然后第二个是，我是玛雅。

That's how tethered my identity was to being a violinist.

这就是我的身份与小提琴家的联系。

And then fast-forward to when I'm a teenager.

然后快进到我十几岁的时候。

I have these huge dreams of going pro and becoming just, like, hopefully, a professional violinist for the rest of my life.

我有一个巨大的梦想，那就是成为一名职业小提琴家，并希望在我的余生成为一名职业小提琴家。

And then I tear a tendon in my hand.

然后我手上的肌腱撕裂了。

My dreams end overnight, and suddenly there's this profound loss of identity, because what I hadn't realized is that in losing the violin, sure, I was losing the ability to play the instrument, but I was actually losing a huge part of who I was, and that was so destabilizing and so disorienting for me, because when you define yourself by the what, then as soon as the what goes away, you're like, oh, my gosh, who the hell am I?

我的梦想在一夜之间结束，突然之间，我的身份彻底丧失，因为我没有意识到，失去小提琴，当然，我也失去了演奏乐器的能力，但我实际上失去了我自己的很大一部分，这对我来说是如此不稳定和迷失方向，因为当你用什么来定义自己时，一旦什么消失了，你就会想，哦，天哪，我到底是谁？

Andrew Huberman: What do I do?

安德鲁·休伯曼：我该怎么办？

What value do I bring to the world?

我给世界带来什么价值？

And what I experienced at the time is known in cognitive science as identity paralysis.

我当时的经历在认知科学中被称为身份麻痹。

Maybe you felt this way during various transitions in your life, but basically, who you are and what you're about is suddenly called into question, and you end up feeling really stuck.

也许你在人生的各种转变中都有这种感觉，但基本上，你是谁、你的目的突然受到质疑，你最终会感到真正陷入困境。

You don't have the courage to imagine what a future could look like, and I certainly fell prey to identity paralysis.

你没有勇气想象未来会是什么样子，而我当然也陷入了身份瘫痪。

And it took me a long time to kind of figure out what my path would look like moving forward, but I learned a really valuable lesson from that very formative experience I had with change about how it is that I should define myself.

我花了很长时间才弄清楚我前进的道路会是什么样子，但我从我在改变中所经历的非常宝贵的经验中学到了非常宝贵的教训，关于我应该如何定义自己。

And for what it's worth, I don't think our desire as humans to have identities is going anywhere.

无论如何，我认为我们作为人类拥有身份的愿望不会消失。

We're not going to be able to dispose of identities, and we shouldn't, because our self-identities bring us so much meaning and purpose in our lives.

我们不能、也不应该抛弃身份，因为我们的自我身份给我们的生活带来了如此多的意义和目的。

Maya Shankar: You're a podcaster.

玛雅香卡：你是一名播客。

I'm a podcaster.

我是一名播客。

You're a scientist.

你是一位科学家。

I'm a scientist.

我是一名科学家。

These things are actually really helpful and motivating.

这些事情实际上非常有帮助和激励。

So we don't want to do away with identities altogether, but what we can be more particular about is what we anchor our identities to.

因此，我们不想完全废除身份，但我们可以更加关注的是我们的身份所锚定的内容。

And I have learned in my adult life to anchor my identity to why I do the things I do rather than what I do.

在我的成年生活中，我学会了将我的身份锚定在我为什么做我所做的事情上，而不是我所做的事情上。

And I found this to be a much more durable, reliable relationship.

我发现这是一种更加持久、可靠的关系。

So to make this concrete, let's think about the violin.

为了具体说明这一点，让我们考虑一下小提琴。

Sure, I loved playing.

当然，我喜欢玩。

I loved how music sounded.

我喜欢音乐的声音。

I loved the way the violin felt.

我喜欢小提琴的感觉。

But when I stripped away all the superficial features of the violin, what I really, really loved and was so drawn to as a young child was the emotional connection that I could form through my music.

但当我剥离小提琴的所有表面特征时，我真正非常喜欢并且小时候被吸引的是我可以通过音乐形成的情感联系。

So that might have been with my orchestra mates, my chamber musician friends, playing solo and performing in front of an audience.

所以这可能是和我的管弦乐队伙伴、我的室内乐音乐家朋友一起独奏并在观众面前表演。

And ideally, we all feel something new that we haven't felt before.

理想情况下，我们都会感受到一些以前从未感受过的新东西。

It's kind of an intoxicating feeling when you're little to have the ability to inspire new feelings in people, right?

当你还很小的时候就有能力激发人们新的感受，这是一种令人陶醉的感觉，对吧？

And I was so drawn to human connection, and when I realized that human connection was at the heart of what it is that drives me as a person.

当我意识到人际关系是驱动我作为一个人的核心时，我对人际关系如此着迷。

Like, what lights me up every single day is a desire to connect with others, to understand other people, to understand their psychology, to understand how their minds work.

就像，每天照亮我的是渴望与他人联系，了解他人，了解他们的心理，了解他们的思想如何运作。

Then when the violin was taken away from me, even in terms of the narrative I tell myself about my life, I could still find that same core underlying feature elsewhere, and I have been able to.

然后，当小提琴从我身边被拿走时，即使就我告诉自己的关于我的生活的叙述而言，我仍然可以在其他地方找到相同的核心基本特征，而且我已经能够做到了。

I found it as an academic, as a cognitive scientist who studies the science of connection and emotion.

我发现它是作为一名学者，作为一名研究联系和情感科学的认知科学家。

I've seen that connection play out in the work that I did in public policy when I was at the White House.

当我在白宫时，我在公共政策方面所做的工作中就看到了这种联系。

Obviously, with my podcast, A Slight Change of Plans.

显然，通过我的播客，计划略有改变。

You're forming these intimate connections with people every day.

您每天都在与人们建立这些亲密的联系。

And so even though it feels in my life like I've done such disparate things, there actually is a powerful through line that connects all of them, and that is my desire to connect emotionally.

因此，尽管在我的生活中感觉我做了如此不同的事情，但实际上有一条强大的贯穿线将所有这些事情连接起来，这就是我在情感上联系的愿望。

And so what I would recommend to people who are listening, especially if they're in the throes of change, and they're feeling destabilized by that threat to identity, that loss of identity, is to try to figure out what their through line is.

因此，我建议那些正在倾听的人，尤其是当他们正处于变革的阵痛中，并且因身份受到威胁、身份丧失而感到不稳定时，尝试找出他们的底线是什么。

What are the underlying features of the things that you used to do that you absolutely loved?

您曾经做过且绝对喜欢的事情的基本特征是什么？

And can you find the expression of that elsewhere?

你能在其他地方找到这种表达方式吗？

Andrew Huberman: I love that, and I have so many questions.

Andrew Huberman：我喜欢这个，我有很多问题。

The first one relates back to childhood identities and how we often can project onto children what they are likely to become.

第一个与童年身份有关，以及我们如何经常将他们可能成为的人投射到孩子身上。

I see that as mostly benevolent.

我认为这主要是仁慈的。

You observe a child playing with trucks in the sandbox, and we say, oh, they're going to become a contractor.

你观察到一个孩子在沙箱里玩卡车，我们说，哦，他们将成为承包商。

We tend to project roles that are fairly high up within the occupation hierarchy.

我们倾向于规划职业等级中相当高的角色。

Like any parents, you wish for the best possible life for your kids.

像所有父母一样，您希望为孩子提供最好的生活。

But I can see the perils of doing that if then the kid starts to think, well, that's what I'm bound to become, because it is restrictive.

但我可以看到这样做的危险，如果孩子开始想，好吧，这就是我注定会成为的人，因为它是有限制的。

I also am fascinated by the fact that when we are adolescents and teens, there's a tendency to ask questions about identity, like, who am I?

我还对以下事实感到着迷：当我们处于青少年时期时，我们倾向于询问有关身份的问题，例如，我是谁？

I don't know many 40-year-olds that say, who am I?

我不知道有多少 40 岁的人会问，我是谁？

At one's core, one's essence, and we might change careers, change relationships, change geographies, all sorts of things.

从本质上讲，我们可能会改变职业、改变人际关系、改变地理位置等等。

But there must be something going on in the brain in those adolescent and teen years that forces this question of self, of who am I?

但在青春期和十几岁的时候，大脑中一定发生了一些事情，迫使人们提出这样的自我问题：我是谁？

And teenagers are notorious for trying on different uniforms, different friend groups, different behaviors, as a way to sort that out, sometimes in ways that support them and sometimes in ways that act as pitfalls.

And teenagers are notorious for trying on different uniforms, different friend groups, different behaviors, as a way to sort that out, sometimes in ways that support them and sometimes in ways that act as pitfalls.

So I'm curious about what's known about how we develop our own identity from the inside out as well as from the outside in.

所以我很好奇我们如何从内到外以及从外到内发展自己的身份。

Maya Shankar: Yeah, no, that's really interesting, and it's also something I'm very curious about.

Maya Shankar：是的，不，这真的很有趣，也是我很好奇的事情。

I mean, we know from neuroscience research that there are significant changes that the brain undergoes during puberty and other periods of adolescence, and the primary change that we see is a desire for independence.

我的意思是，我们从神经科学研究中得知，大脑在青春期和青春期的其他时期会经历显着的变化，而我们看到的主要变化是对独立的渴望。

And so one reason why we see teenagers grappling with this question of who I am is that they're actually breaking from these structures that they grew up around.

因此，我们看到青少年努力解决“我是谁”这个问题的原因之一是，他们实际上正在摆脱他们成长过程中的这些结构。

The imposed structures, the identity foreclosure that they might have experienced and are starting to figure out for the first time, or wanting to ask the question for the first time, who do I want to be?

强加的结构，他们可能经历过的身份丧失抵押品赎回权，他们第一次开始弄清楚，或者第一次想问这个问题，我想成为谁？

What do I want to do outside of the systems that I've grown up in?

在我成长的系统之外我想做什么？

And I think this is one of the primary reasons why we find that during teenage years, this sort of question is asked more commonly.

我认为这是我们发现在青少年时期更常见此类问题的主要原因之一。

I think that one challenge that we can face, because you said this one word that really caught my attention, which was, what's my essence?

我认为这是我们可以面对的一个挑战，因为你说的这句话真正引起了我的注意，那就是，我的本质是什么？

And one of the things I studied as a cognitive scientist, is the psychology of what's called essentialism.

作为一名认知科学家，我研究的内容之一就是所谓的本质主义心理学。

So our underlying belief is that there are essential qualities to people that are immutable, and there's lots of studies with young children and adults showing that we really believe that people do have these essences.

因此，我们的基本信念是，人有一些不可改变的基本品质，并且对幼儿和成人进行的大量研究表明，我们确实相信人们确实具有这些本质。

And it's unclear what that even means in a metaphysical sense, I don't know what that would even mean.

目前尚不清楚这在形而上学意义上意味着什么，我什至不知道这意味着什么。

I think that the challenge in believing that we have essences is that it leads us to believe that there are these truly immutable states about ourselves that we're incapable of changing, and I think this can give rise to feelings of shame, for example.

我认为，相信我们拥有本质的挑战在于，它让我们相信我们自己有这些真正不可改变的状态，我们无法改变，例如，我认为这可能会引起羞耻感。

So what is shame?

那么什么是羞耻呢？

Shame is not the feeling, oh, I did something bad.

羞耻不是那种感觉，哦，我做了坏事。

Shame is the feeling, I am bad.

羞耻是一种感觉，我很糟糕。

It's not that I lost at something, I failed at something, it's that I'm a loser, I'm a failure.

这并不是说我在某件事上失败了，而是我是一个失败者，我是一个失败者。

And so the problem when we try to figure out the essence piece is that it doesn't give you the kind of malleable way of thinking that actually there might not be something that's so defining about you that you're incapable of changing.

因此，当我们试图找出本质部分时，问题是它并没有给你一种可塑性的思维方式，实际上可能没有什么东西对你来说如此定义以至于你无法改变。

As humans, maybe all we are are collections of behaviors and thoughts.

作为人类，也许我们都是行为和思想的集合。

And there's nothing more to it than that.

除此之外，没有什么其他的了。

And I find that way of thinking a bit more freeing when it comes to who we are, because I think it allows us to cultivate more of a growth mindset.

And I find that way of thinking a bit more freeing when it comes to who we are, because I think it allows us to cultivate more of a growth mindset.

I think it prevents us from engaging in these very harmful self-narratives that a lot of people tend to have about themselves.

我认为它可以防止我们参与许多人倾向于对自己进行的非常有害的自我叙述。

Probably a lot of people listening to your podcast are self-critical.

可能很多听你播客的人都会自我批评。

I'm a very self-critical person.

我是一个非常自我批评的人。

We listen to this because we want to improve.

我们听这个是因为我们想改进。

I'm a fan of your show because I want to be better and I want to improve.

我是你的节目的粉丝，因为我想要变得更好，我想要进步。

But that also is often accompanied by a lot of self-berating and questioning of self.

但这也常常伴随着大量的自责和自我质疑。

And so, yeah, I think I've just tried to have a slightly more capacious understanding of who I am and also recognizing that there might not really be these essential features that are immutable.

所以，是的，我想我只是试图对我是谁有一个稍微更广泛的理解，并认识到可能并不存在这些一成不变的基本特征。

I don't know if you resonate with this notion of the desire to feel that we have essences?

不知道你是否认同这种渴望感受到我们拥有本质的观念？

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, I used the word essence without thinking too carefully about exactly what I meant, but what I was trying to say when I said essence is as a child, I did certain things, and I enjoyed some of them, didn't enjoy others, and I really disliked others.

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, I used the word essence without thinking too carefully about exactly what I meant, but what I was trying to say when I said essence is as a child, I did certain things, and I enjoyed some of them, didn't enjoy others, and I really disliked others.

A very famous neuroscientist who's at Caltech named Markus Meister, people literally refer to him as the great Markus Meister, once said, and I totally subscribe to the fact, that neural circuits in the brain basically divide our sensory experience along the dimensions of yum, yuck and meh.

加州理工学院一位非常著名的神经科学家，名叫马库斯·梅斯特（Markus Meister），人们字面意义上称他为伟大的马库斯·梅斯特，他曾经说过，我完全同意这样一个事实：大脑中的神经回路基本上将我们的感官体验划分为“嗯”、“恶心”和“嗯”的维度。

There's not a lot of in between, because the circuits ultimately have to drive either forward movement toward more repetitive behaviors, as in nerdspeak, or aversive leaning out, I don't want that.

There's not a lot of in between, because the circuits ultimately have to drive either forward movement toward more repetitive behaviors, as in nerdspeak, or aversive leaning out, I don't want that.

Or just kind of a neutral response, a yum, yuck and meh seems to be the trinary response.

或者只是一种中性的反应，嗯，恶心和嗯似乎是三元反应。

And there is this component of childhood, I think, where we are foraging naturally, using our senses, experiencing yum, yucks and mehs and hearing yum, yucks and mehs from our parents.

And there is this component of childhood, I think, where we are foraging naturally, using our senses, experiencing yum, yucks and mehs and hearing yum, yucks and mehs from our parents.

That's good, that's bad, that's whatever.

好的，坏的，都可以。

It's neutral.

它是中性的。

But at some point, I certainly have had the experience and I've observed others, I think, having the experience of feeling something that's on a different dimension entirely, which is this notion of delight, which is that it sort of fills your body with a sense of so much yum that it gives you energy to do so much more of it in a way that is almost on a different plane.

But at some point, I certainly have had the experience and I've observed others, I think, having the experience of feeling something that's on a different dimension entirely, which is this notion of delight, which is that it sort of fills your body with a sense of so much yum that it gives you energy to do so much more of it in a way that is almost on a different plane.

And I'm not trying to be spiritual or metaphysical about it, but it feels distinctly different.

我并不是想对此进行精神或形而上学的探讨，但感觉明显不同。

And I don't know what it represents, but I think that's that piece that perhaps, even as a scientist, I don't really need to assign a neural circuit to.

And I don't know what it represents, but I think that's that piece that perhaps, even as a scientist, I don't really need to assign a neural circuit to.

Maya Shankar: Sure, do you think what you're describing in part is the feeling of awe?

玛雅·香卡：当然，你认为你所描述的部分是敬畏的感觉吗？

Like, when you talk about delight, do you think part of it is a feeling of awe?

就像，当你谈论快乐时，你认为其中一部分是敬畏感吗？

Andrew Huberman: Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。

Like the first time I went to New York City as a six-year-old kid, I remember thinking, and I still feel every time I'm there, I can't believe this place exists.

Like the first time I went to New York City as a six-year-old kid, I remember thinking, and I still feel every time I'm there, I can't believe this place exists.

It's like a human tropical reef.

它就像人类的热带珊瑚礁。

Like everywhere you look, there's life.

就像你所看到的任何地方一样，都有生命。

So that was awe and delight.

这就是敬畏和喜悦。

Although I saw some things, this was New York in the '70s, there were some things like Times Square in the '70s.

虽然我看到了一些东西，这是70年代的纽约，有一些像70年代时代广场这样的东西。

If anyone's seen that show, "The Deuces," it looked like that, especially as a young kid, it was kind of aversive.

如果有人看过那个节目“The Deuces”，它看起来就是这样，尤其是作为一个小孩子，这有点令人厌恶。

Maya Shankar: Yeah.

Maya Shankar: Yeah.

Andrew Huberman: So it wasn't always awed, but the delight for me was in learning, and certain animals and certain things for you as the violin.

安德鲁·休伯曼：所以它并不总是令人敬畏，但对我来说，乐趣在于学习，以及某些动物和某些东西，比如小提琴。

And I want to make sure that I--

我想确保我——

Maya Shankar: --And awe, by the way, I mean, it can be aversive.

玛雅·香卡：——还有敬畏，顺便说一句，我的意思是，它可能会令人厌恶。

So awe isn't necessarily, I think, in the Western world, we think of awe-inspiring experiences as having a positive emotional valence, but they can also have a negative emotional valence.

So awe isn't necessarily, I think, in the Western world, we think of awe-inspiring experiences as having a positive emotional valence, but they can also have a negative emotional valence.

So, the two criteria for satisfying an awe-inspiring experience, and a lot of this work comes from Dacher Keltner, professor at Berkeley, is one, there should be some element of perceived vastness.

So, the two criteria for satisfying an awe-inspiring experience, and a lot of this work comes from Dacher Keltner, professor at Berkeley, is one, there should be some element of perceived vastness.

This is all reference dependent.

这完全取决于参考。

So it's all based on your own frame of mind, but there's this sense of mystery and wonder at just how vast either the physical apparatus is, like Times Square.

So it's all based on your own frame of mind, but there's this sense of mystery and wonder at just how vast either the physical apparatus is, like Times Square.

It's this massive set of buildings, and it kind of overwhelms your senses because of all the lights and sounds that are hitting your visual system and your auditory system.

这是一组巨大的建筑，它会淹没你的感官，因为所有的灯光和声音都会冲击你的视觉系统和听觉系统。

There's also conceptual vastness.

还有概念上的广阔性。

So we can feel awe when we feel the delight of a new scientific discovery, right?

所以当我们感受到新的科学发现的喜悦时，我们会感到敬畏，对吗？

Or in my case, like for the first time reading a book about how the mind works.

或者就我而言，就像第一次阅读一本关于思维如何运作的书。

I just remember marveling at this organ and just being completely in awe of how it works.

我只记得对这个器官感到惊叹，并对它的工作原理感到完全敬畏。

And then the second criteria for an awe-inspiring experience, which I think might have been met as well when you were in New York, is what's called a need for accommodation.

然后，令人惊叹的体验的第二个标准，我认为当你在纽约时也可能满足，那就是所谓的住宿需求。

So it's just a fancy way of saying that we have a certain mental model of the world.

所以这只是一种奇特的说法，表明我们对世界有某种心理模型。

And typically in the presence of awe, we need to assimilate this new information with our existing model because it challenges it in some way.

通常，在敬畏的情况下，我们需要将这些新信息与我们现有的模型同化，因为它在某种程度上挑战了它。

And it actually leads us to have more open minds because we realize, wait a second, I have this existing vision of what the world is like and now I'm experiencing this new thing and I need to kind of make it work.

它实际上让我们拥有更加开放的思想，因为我们意识到，等一下，我对世界有这样的愿景，现在我正在经历这个新事物，我需要让它发挥作用。

I need to integrate it with my existing understanding of the world and that's the mind-blowing part of it.

我需要将它与我现有的对世界的理解结合起来，这就是其中令人兴奋的部分。

But I absolutely remember my childhood experience kind of mirroring your experience in New York, I was twelve years old or maybe eleven years old.

但我绝对记得我的童年经历有点像你在纽约的经历，我十二岁或者十一岁。

I was at a summer music camp.

我参加了一个音乐夏令营。

It was late at night.

已经是深夜了。

I had my Discman, which is how we listened to things back in the day.

我有我的 Discman，这就是我们过去听音乐的方式。

I recall I had a CD in there.

我记得里面有一张CD。

It was the Beethoven violin concerto by Anne Sophie Mutter.

这是安妮·索菲·穆特创作的贝多芬小提琴协奏曲。

I was so young, Andrew, so I still don't know how to use words to describe how it is that I felt something that was so powerful and so transcendent.

我太年轻了，安德鲁，所以我仍然不知道如何用言语来描述我是如何感受到如此强大和如此超然的东西。

But I remember listening to the first movement of this violin concerto and it consumed me.

但我记得听了这首小提琴协奏曲的第一乐章，它让我着迷。

I mean, I felt chills up and down my spine.

我的意思是，我感到脊背发凉。

My heart would race along with the melody.

我的心会随着旋律而跳动。

It felt otherworldly, right?

感觉超凡脱俗，对吧？

And I think that was kind of what you're getting at before where it's like it's this altered state of mind.

我认为这就是你之前所理解的，就像这种改变的心态一样。

And the language I've used since to code that experience is that it was an awe-inspiring experience because I think both things happened.

从那时起，我在编写这段经历时所用的语言是，这是一次令人惊叹的经历，因为我认为这两件事都发生了。

I was impressed by the vastness of the experience.

这次经历的丰富给我留下了深刻的印象。

It also sent me through time in this interesting way, back to the time of Beethoven.

它也以这种有趣的方式让我穿越时空，回到贝多芬的时代。

So the vastness can exist along a temporal horizon and then the need for accommodation, which, you know, I didn't study cognitive science at this point.

因此，浩瀚可以沿着时间范围存在，然后需要适应，你知道，我此时没有研究认知科学。

So I remember thinking, I cannot believe a collection of musical notes arranged just so can make me feel this way and that if you were to tweak it just slightly, just like, take the E flat and move it down the stream a little bit, emotional resonance is completely gone from the passage.

所以我记得我当时想，我不敢相信这样安排的一组音符能让我有这样的感觉，如果你稍微调整一下，就像把降E调顺着流移动一点，情感共鸣就会从乐段中完全消失。

And there was just something so simple and magical about that realization.

这种认识是如此简单而神奇。

So, anyway, I resonate with this kind of delight and awe experience that you describe.

所以，无论如何，我对你所描述的这种喜悦和敬畏的经历产生了共鸣。

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, I'm so glad you described it.

Andrew Huberman：是的，我很高兴你描述了它。

That, you know, this isn't a discussion about my experience, but for me, I realize now that New York was awe-inspiring.

你知道，这不是在讨论我的经历，但对我来说，我现在意识到纽约是令人敬畏的。

Prior to that, the only thing similar was discovering animal specialization, something I'm still fascinated by, the sensory systems of animals and how they experience the world and how humans experience the world.

在此之前，唯一相似的是发现动物的专门化，这是我仍然着迷的事情，动物的感官系统以及它们如何体验世界以及人类如何体验世界。

And then ultimately, it was, well, then I went into skateboarding and that whole landscape, and then eventually into neuroscience.

最终，嗯，然后我进入了滑板和整个领域，然后最终进入了神经科学。

The difference between the New York experience of awe, and I do think that that's what it was, and biology, animals, and eventually neuroscience, is that, like your experience with music and realizing that the movement of a note could change something fundamentally, when it came to learning about biology and neuroscience, I felt not just awe, but a sense of delight in that.

我确实认为纽约的敬畏体验与生物学、动物以及最终的神经科学之间的区别在于，就像你对音乐的体验以及意识到音符的移动可以从根本上改变某些东西一样，当谈到学习生物学和神经科学时，我不仅感到敬畏，而且感受到了一种喜悦感。

I felt there was a place for me there.

我觉得那里有我的位置。

And what came out of what you just described really resonated in terms of this moving of a note, because it took something from a passive experience, I believe, of that's this incredible thing over there, like New York City, was awe.

你刚才所描述的内容确实在音符的移动方面引起了共鸣，因为我相信，它从被动的经历中汲取了一些东西，就像纽约市一样，那里的令人难以置信的事情是令人敬畏的。

But I didn't see myself having any kind of verb state within it that would change it or alter how it is, or for me.

但我不认为自己有任何动词状态可以改变它或改变它的本来面目，或者对我来说。

Whereas with music, for you or, I think, neuroscience, when I realized that you could do experiments, you could actually do some sort of manipulation, and through that, hopefully unveil something fundamental about how the brain works, I thought, there's a place for me here.

而对于音乐，对于你或者我认为对于神经科学来说，当我意识到你可以做实验时，你实际上可以进行某种操作，并通过它，希望揭示一些关于大脑如何工作的基本知识，我想，这里有我的一席之地。

And so I think there's something about the experience of something just from a raw sensory perspective, music or animals or neuroscience in the examples we're using here.

所以我认为，在我们在这里使用的例子中，有一些关于从原始感官角度、音乐、动物或神经科学的体验。

But then realizing that there's a verb state of self like that, I could enact something within it that could give me more of that.

但后来意识到存在这样的自我动词状态，我可以在其中制定一些可以给我更多的东西。

Whereas I think when, as a young kid in New York City, I just didn't feel any way that I could plug into it except in a passive way, because it's the difference between a kid who — and this wouldn't have been me — who sees a game of soccer or football or baseball or watches the Olympics and goes, that is amazing, and the kid that says, I'm going to go do that, in fact, I could do that, and I could maybe do that even better, or even half as well.

然而我认为，当我还是纽约市的一个小孩子时，除了被动的方式之外，我没有任何感觉可以参与其中，因为这是一个孩子之间的区别——这不会是我——看了一场足球比赛、足球或棒球或观看奥运会，这太棒了，而那个孩子说，我要去这样做，事实上，我可以这样做，而且我也许可以做得更好，甚至一半。

And so the delight, I think, is in the possibility of engagement, and I'm fascinated.

所以，我认为，快乐在于参与的可能性，我很着迷。

A friend of mine who's a trauma therapist, he's not a neuroscientist.

我的一个朋友是创伤治疗师，他不是神经科学家。

He always says nouns are just very slow verbs, but verbs are far more exciting because they create this anticipatory activity.

他总是说名词只是非常慢的动词，但动词更令人兴奋，因为它们创造了这种预期活动。

Anyway--

无论如何——

Maya Shankar: --Before you move on from that, I love that you said that, because you're helping me realize something really important about how I saw my role as a violinist.

玛雅·香卡：——在你继续之前的内容之前，我喜欢你这么说，因为你帮助我认识到一些非常重要的事情，关于我如何看待自己作为小提琴家的角色。

I'm never going to modify the notes on the page, because obviously, I'm going to be faithful to what Beethoven wrote.

我永远不会修改页面上的注释，因为显然，我会忠实于贝多芬所写的内容。

Andrew Huberman: This is what made you a great musician.

安德鲁·休伯曼：这就是让你成为一名伟大音乐家的原因。

And me, by the way, I was a failed violinist.

顺便说一句，我是一个失败的小提琴家。

They pulled me out of it because the neighbor's dogs howled.

他们把我从里面拉了出来，因为邻居的狗在嚎叫。

I was in the Suzuki method.

我采用的是铃木方法。

I was so terrible at it that they literally made me stop playing music just to protect the neighborhood.

我实在太糟糕了，他们真的让我停止播放音乐，只是为了保护邻居。

Maya Shankar: That's adorable.

玛雅香卡：那太可爱了。

And we'll talk about the science of quitting.

我们将讨论戒烟的科学原理。

Maybe later, but that was a great choice for you.

也许稍后，但这对你来说是一个不错的选择。

But what I'm realizing is that there was that element of defining self through the pursuit of the instrument.

但我意识到，存在着通过追求乐器来定义自我的元素。

And I saw a place for myself exactly like you did, where I thought, I decide how this phrase unfolds.

我为自己看到了一个像你一样的地方，在那里我想，我决定这句话如何展开。

I decide how much vibrato I use.

我决定使用多少颤音。

I decide exactly what the angling of my bow is and the cadence and the pacing and the emotion that I bring to the experience.

我准确地决定我的弓的角度是什么，以及我给体验带来的节奏、节奏和情感。

And when you see a place for yourself, that takes an awe-inspiring experience.

当你看到一个适合自己的地方时，这需要一种令人惊叹的体验。

And then, actually, there's a translation process where you become something bigger than what you thought you could be.

然后，实际上，有一个转化过程，在这个过程中，你会变得比你想象的更伟大。

And actually, it's so interesting you mentioned this, Andrew, because I've been chatting recently with a guy named Reginald Dwayne Betts, and he spent nine years in prison, and he's now an internationally renowned scholar.

事实上，安德鲁，你提到这一点很有趣，因为我最近一直在和一个名叫雷金纳德·德韦恩·贝茨的人聊天，他在监狱里呆了九年，现在他是一位国际知名的学者。

So he committed a carjacking when he was 15 years old and then went to an adult prison for nine years.

于是他在15岁的时候犯下了劫车罪，然后在成人监狱里关了九年。

Andrew Huberman: As a 15-year-old?

Andrew Huberman：15 岁的时候？

Maya Shankar: He just turned 16 by the time he got his sentence.

Maya Shankar：他被判刑时刚刚满 16 岁。

Yeah, it was totally wild.

是的，这太疯狂了。

Andrew Huberman: Brutal.

安德鲁·休伯曼：残酷。

Maya Shankar: And he actually talks about the fact that there was this underground library in the prison system, and he didn't know what he could be in the prison, what identity he could take on when everyone seemed to be defined by what crime they had committed.

玛雅·香卡：他实际上谈到了这样一个事实：监狱系统中有一个地下图书馆，他不知道自己在监狱里会是什么，当每个人似乎都由他们所犯的罪行来定义时，他可以采取什么身份。

It felt like his imagination was so limited to the...

感觉自己的想象力实在是太有限了……

talk about identity paralysis.

谈论身份瘫痪。

I mean, you're denied all your basic freedoms in this environment, right?

我的意思是，在这种环境下你的所有基本自由都被剥夺了，对吧？

So you really don't even have the ability to imagine what more you could be.

所以你真的没有能力想象你还能成为什么。

So one day he gets a book called "The Black Poets." And in the book, he read a poem by Etheridge Knight, who had also spent time in prison and had written this incredibly stirring poem about the criminal justice system.

于是有一天，他得到了一本书，名叫《黑人诗人》。在书中，他读了埃瑟里奇·奈特的一首诗，埃瑟里奇·奈特也曾在监狱里呆过，写了这首关于刑事司法系统的令人难以置信的激动人心的诗。

And he goes by Dwayne, but what Dwayne shared with me is he said, I was awe-inspired by what I was reading.

他叫德韦恩，但德韦恩与我分享的是他说，我对我所读的内容感到敬畏。

But the most important thing that happened in reading that book and understanding the author's history is that it gave me something to be.

但在阅读这本书和了解作者的历史过程中发生的最重要的事情是它给了我一些东西。

I saw a place for myself in this world.

我在这个世界上看到了自己的位置。

And he was so prolific.

他是如此多产。

He wrote like a thousand poems in the year after he stumbled upon this book, and he ended up winning the MacArthur Genius Award.

在他偶然发现这本书后的一年里，他写了大约一千首诗，并最终赢得了麦克阿瑟天才奖。

He went to Yale Law School.

他去了耶鲁大学法学院。

I mean, he's just crushed it ever since.

我的意思是，从那以后他就粉碎了它。

But I think you've stumbled upon a really important point, which is there's a fascinating science of awe and all the benefits it can confer to our well-being, but it can also serve as an entry point to helping to define our identities in new places.

但我认为你偶然发现了一个非常重要的点，那就是敬畏是一门令人着迷的科学，它可以为我们的福祉带来所有好处，但它也可以作为帮助在新地方定义我们身份的切入点。

And I just love that.

我就是喜欢这样。

I think that's a wonderful way to think about it.

我认为这是一个很好的思考方式。

Andrew Huberman: Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。

When we see ourselves entering the sphere of experience that is evoking awe, I do think something about it converts to this delight.

当我们看到自己进入令人敬畏的体验领域时，我确实认为它会转化为这种喜悦。

Although I have to acknowledge that language is insufficient to describe a lot of what we're referring to.

尽管我必须承认语言不足以描述我们所指的很多内容。

Right.

正确的。

Even the most reductionist language of biology can't grab the higher order emotions and complexity.

即使是最还原论的生物学语言也无法抓住更高阶的情感和复杂性。

Not yet, anyway.

无论如何，还没有。

We just don't have a language for it.

我们只是没有语言来表达它。

I'd like to talk more about the violin, not just because I failed miserably at the violin, but actually, I figured out pretty early on I wasn't going to be a musician.

我想更多地谈论小提琴，不仅仅是因为我在小提琴上惨败，而且实际上，我很早就意识到我不会成为一名音乐家。

I still have absolutely no ability to read music.

我仍然完全没有读乐谱的能力。

I can memorize lyrics very easily, and I love music, and I love classical music as well as other forms of music, but zero musical talent.

我很容易记住歌词，而且我喜欢音乐，喜欢古典音乐以及其他形式的音乐，但音乐天赋为零。

You, on the other hand, got quite good at violin.

另一方面，你的小提琴拉得相当好。

It was interesting for me to learn that the violin was a bit of a rebellious choice for you, given your family history.

考虑到您的家族史，得知小提琴对您来说有点叛逆，这对我来说很有趣。

And you and I do both share this fairly unusual fact that both of our fathers are theoretical physicists.

你和我确实都分享了一个相当不寻常的事实：我们的父亲都是理论物理学家。

So did you feel pressured to be a scientist or something else?

那么你是否因为成为一名科学家或其他职业而感到压力？

And being a musician, was that initially looked at as a route to poverty or a bad choice, or were your parents a bit more cautious, like, oh, okay, that's great, but maybe make that a supplement to your other studies and pursuits.

作为一名音乐家，最初被视为一条通往贫困的道路或一个糟糕的选择，或者你的父母是否更加谨慎一点，比如，哦，好吧，那很好，但也许可以将其作为你其他学习和追求的补充。

Maya Shankar: Yeah.

玛雅·香卡：是的。

So I'm the youngest of four kids, and kind of stereotypically, my three older siblings were total math whizzes, they were, you know, taking the SAT when they were very young because they were so talented.

所以我是四个孩子中最小的一个，而且有点刻板印象，我的三个哥哥姐姐都是数学高手，你知道，他们在很小的时候就参加了 SAT，因为他们非常有才华。

But I think one antagonist to some of those cultural forces is that my mom, when she had grown up in India, had felt very stifled by her environment.

但我认为其中一些文化力量的反对者是我的母亲，当她在印度长大时，她感到自己的环境非常窒息。

Like, as a young woman who was very capable and very smart, I mean, she majored in physics.

就像，作为一个非常有能力和非常聪明的年轻女性，我的意思是，她主修物理。

She was mostly kept to the spaces of domestic chores, occasional singing lessons.

她大部分时间都在做家务，偶尔上唱歌课。

But mostly her job was like, do your homework and then help with cooking.

但她的工作主要是，做作业，然后帮忙做饭。

Right, and cleaning and whatnot.

对了，还有清洁之类的。

And so when she moved to this country with my dad in the 1970s, she was actually very excited.

因此，当她在 20 世纪 70 年代和我父亲一起搬到这个国家时，她实际上非常兴奋。

She was 21 years old, by the way.

顺便说一句，她当时 21 岁。

So, long story short, she had met my dad 20 days prior to their getting married.

长话短说，她在结婚前 20 天认识了我父亲。

So it was an arranged meeting.

所以这是一次安排好的会议。

And my dad is doing his postdoc at Harvard in physics at the Society of Fellows.

我父亲正在哈佛大学研究员协会做物理学博士后。

And my mom just joins him after a winter break in the dorm.

我妈妈在宿舍寒假结束后才和他一起去。

And everyone's like, hey, man, how was your break?

每个人都会说，嘿，伙计，你休息得怎么样？

And there's like, I went snowboarding and I went, whatever, to Tahoe.

就像，我去滑雪，然后我去了太浩湖。

And my dad's like, I got married.

我爸爸说，我结婚了。

And so this new couple arrives, and my mom was so lonely in this country.

这对新夫妇到来了，我妈妈在这个国家感到非常孤独。

I mean, this was before you could text your parents overseas or use a WhatsApp group.

我的意思是，那是在你可以给海外父母发短信或使用 WhatsApp 群组之前。

So she could only handwrite letters to her family back home.

于是，她只能手写信给家乡的家人。

And her goal was, you know what?

她的目标是，你知道吗？

I'm going to create a little army around me in the form of children.

我将以孩子的形式在我周围建立一支小军队。

So she had four kids, and she was absolutely intent on exposing us to as many extracurricular activities as she could.

所以她有四个孩子，她绝对致力于让我们尽可能多地参加课外活动。

So I have two older brothers and I have an older sister, especially her girls.

我有两个哥哥和一个姐姐，尤其是她的女儿们。

She said, you can do whatever you want.

她说，你可以做任何你想做的事。

I'm going to give you lay of the land when you're young, but when you find something that you're passionate about, I really want to give you the opportunity to explore it.

当你年轻的时候，我会给你一些了解，但当你找到你热爱的东西时，我真的很想给你机会去探索它。

So I think I really benefited from the fact that she had been denied that kind of exposure and the ability to pursue her dreams, artistic or otherwise.

所以我认为我真的受益于这样一个事实：她被剥夺了这种曝光和追求她的梦想的能力，无论是艺术还是其他方面。

And so she was really hell-bent on making sure that we kids were able to.

所以她真的一心想确保我们这些孩子能够做到。

My older three siblings played musical instruments, so, like clarinet, trumpet, flute.

我的三个哥哥姐姐都会演奏乐器，比如单簧管、小号、长笛。

I think they were surprised by my affinity for it because when I was six, my mom brought down my grandmother's violin from the attic.

我想他们对我对小提琴的喜爱感到惊讶，因为当我六岁的时候，我妈妈从阁楼上拿下了我祖母的小提琴。

So my grandmother had played Indian classical music.

所以我的祖母演奏了印度古典音乐。

So that's where you're sitting cross-legged on the floor and your violin's facing the ground.

这就是你盘腿坐在地板上，小提琴面向地面的地方。

It's a very different style of music.

这是一种非常不同的音乐风格。

But as, like, a parting gift, my grandmother had given it to my mom and said, hey, bring this with you to the U.S.

但作为临别礼物，我祖母把它送给了我妈妈，并说，嘿，把它带到美国吧。

So she opened the instrument that day, and I just instantly fell in love with it.

所以那天她打开了这个乐器，我立刻就爱上了它。

And I asked very quickly for a quarter-size violin of my own.

我很快就想要一把我自己的四分之一尺寸的小提琴。

And while my parents had to nudge me to do all sorts of things, they really never had to push me to practice, which felt extraordinary at the time.

虽然我的父母不得不督促我做各种各样的事情，但他们实际上从来不需要督促我练习，这在当时感觉非同寻常。

Like, okay, clearly the violin is something that Maya has intrinsic motivation for, because how is it that we're not asking her to have to practice all the time?

就像，好吧，显然小提琴是玛雅有内在动力的东西，因为我们怎么不要求她一直练习呢？

Similar to you, Andrew, I never to this day, I have a really hard time reading music.

和你一样，安德鲁，直到今天，我从来没有很难读过音乐。

I never, I was a terrible sight reader.

我从来没有，我是一个糟糕的视奏者。

I couldn't, if you put a piece of music in front of me, I would not be able to tell you probably what it would sound like.

我不能，如果你把一段音乐放在我面前，我可能无法告诉你它听起来是什么样的。

Today, I learn entirely by ear.

今天，我完全靠耳朵学习。

So I started with the Suzuki method, which, as you know, is entirely by ear.

所以我从铃木方法开始，正如你所知，这完全是靠耳朵。

And then I had an extremely kind, awesome, but very inexperienced teacher.

然后我有一位非常友善、很棒但非常缺乏经验的老师。

I was his first student.

我是他的第一个学生。

My mom went backstage at a symphony concert in New Haven, which is where I grew up, and just asked the concertmaster, like, hey, will you teach my daughter?

我妈妈在纽黑文（我长大的地方）的一场交响音乐会后台问首席，嘿，你会教我女儿吗？

And he's like, sure.

他说，当然。

Never taught anyone before, but I'll give this a go.

以前从未教过任何人，但我会尝试一下。

And so we just made things up along the way.

所以我们只是一路上编造出来的。

I mean, he would play stuff and I would mimic it, and I would let my emotions and whatever innate musicality guide me.

我的意思是，他会演奏一些东西，我会模仿它，我会让我的情感和任何与生俱来的音乐性引导我。

And eventually, I think what that did actually is really interesting, from a skill-building perspective my technique absolutely suffered in the long term from not having a more structured approach, but I was able to fall in love with this endeavor much more quickly than other kids who had drill sergeants that were forcing them to practice their scales every day and practice etudes.

最终，我认为这实际上非常有趣，从技能培养的角度来看，从长远来看，我的技术绝对会因为没有更结构化的方法而受到影响，但我能够比其他那些有教官强迫他们每天练习音阶和练习曲的孩子更快地爱上这项工作。

I mean, that stuff is so boring, right?

我的意思是，那些东西太无聊了，对吧？

And when you're a little kid, you just want to bang your head against the wall when you're put up against that, when there's so many barriers to actually enjoying the fun parts, which are actually playing the pieces.

当你还是个小孩子的时候，当你遇到困难时，你只想用头撞墙，因为真正享受有趣的部分（实际上是在演奏这些部分）有很多障碍。

So the one kind of fun aside about my musical journey is I got to jump straight to the fun stuff, and I think that helped me cultivate a much more natural love of the instrument.

因此，我的音乐之旅的一种乐趣是我必须直接跳到有趣的东西，我认为这帮助我培养了对乐器更自然的热爱。

Andrew Huberman: As many of you know, I've been taking AG1 daily since 2012, so I'm delighted that they're sponsoring the podcast.

Andrew Huberman：正如你们很多人所知，自 2012 年以来我一直每天服用 AG1，所以我很高兴他们赞助这个播客。

AG1 is a vitamin-mineral-probiotic drink that's designed to meet all of your foundational nutrition needs.

AG1 是一种维生素-矿物质-益生菌饮料，旨在满足您的所有基本营养需求。

Now, of course, I try to get enough servings of vitamins and minerals through whole food sources that include vegetables and fruits every day, but oftentimes I simply can't get enough servings.

当然，现在我尝试每天通过包括蔬菜和水果在内的天然食物来源获取足够的维生素和矿物质，但通常我根本无法获取足够的份量。

But with AG1, I'm sure to get enough vitamins and minerals and the probiotics that I need, and it also contains adaptogens to help buffer stress.

但有了 AG1，我肯定能获得足够的维生素和矿物质以及我需要的益生菌，而且它还含有适应原来帮助缓冲压力。

Simply put, I always feel better when I take AG1.

简而言之，当我服用 AG1 时，我总是感觉更好。

I have more focus and energy and I sleep better.

我的注意力更加集中，精力更加充沛，睡眠质量也更好。

And it also happens to taste great.

而且它的味道也很棒。

For all these reasons, whenever I'm asked, if you could take just one supplement, what would it be?

出于所有这些原因，每当我被问到，如果你只能服用一种补充剂，你会选择什么？

I answer AG1.

我回答AG1。

If you'd like to try AG1, go to drinkag1.com/huberman to claim a special offer.

如果您想尝试 AG1，请访问 Drinkag1.com/huberman 以获得特别优惠。

From now until August 12th, 2023, AG1 is giving away ten free travel packs plus a year's supply of vitamin D3K2.

从即日起至 2023 年 8 月 12 日，AG1 将赠送 10 个免费旅行包以及一年的维生素 D3K2。

Again, if you go to drinkag1.com/huberman, you can claim the special offer of ten free travel packs plus a year's supply of vitamin D3K2.

同样，如果您访问 Drinkag1.com/huberman，您还可以获得 10 个免费旅行包以及一年维生素 D3K2 的特别优惠。

The intrinsic motivation part is so key.

内在动机部分非常关键。

I've talked a few times before on the podcast about this.

我之前在播客上谈过几次这个问题。

I think of a now-famous study that was done at Bing Nursery School, at Stanford, where they observed what kids did during free time, and then they rewarded them or didn't reward them, and then they later removed the rewards.

我想起斯坦福大学宾幼儿园进行的一项现在著名的研究，他们观察孩子们在空闲时间做了什么，然后奖励或不奖励他们，然后又取消奖励。

And the essential takeaway is that receiving rewards for something that a child was initially intrinsically motivated to do undermines some of that intrinsic motivation.

最重要的一点是，如果孩子最初本能地去做某件事而获得奖励，那么就会削弱一些内在动机。

So I have to wonder whether or not the fact that your parents neither encouraged nor discouraged your violin playing might have allowed you to fully express and lean into your intrinsic motivation, as opposed to...

所以我想知道，你的父母既不鼓励也不劝阻你拉小提琴，这一事实是否可以让你充分表达和倾向于你的内在动机，而不是……

for instance in my case, we are distantly related, not closely related, but there is a great violinist by the name of Bronislav Huberman, who has a street named after him in Israel.

以我为例，我们是远亲，而不是近亲，但有一位伟大的小提琴家，名叫布罗尼斯拉夫·胡贝尔曼，在以色列有一条以他的名字命名的街道。

There's a famous picture of him and Einstein playing violin together.

有一张他和爱因斯坦一起拉小提琴的著名照片。

And I was told about that early on.

我很早就被告知了这一点。

And when I failed to play well after a couple of practices, I was convinced that there was no way I was going to live up to it, and I quit.

当我在几次练习后打得不好时，我确信我无法做到这一点，所以我退出了。

Maya Shankar: That's a high bar.

Maya Shankar：这是一个很高的标准。

Andrew Huberman: It's a high bar.

Andrew Huberman：这是一个很高的标准。

Maya Shankar: I didn't have any such role models that I was trying to be like in my family.

玛雅·香卡（Maya Shankar）：我在家里没有任何我想成为的榜样。

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, it turns out, but exactly!

安德鲁·休伯曼：是的，事实证明，但确实如此！

And so I think that there's actually more opportunity in kids leaning into, and adults probably leaning into the sensory experience of what they're doing and not putting that up against some benchmark.

因此，我认为实际上有更多的机会让孩子们倾向于，而成年人可能倾向于他们正在做的事情的感官体验，而不是将其与某些基准进行比较。

I worry about that today so much with social media and with video games, where in a video game we're on social media, you can see something being done at the very highest level, often by someone quite young or early in their career, to the point where it can be a little bit overwhelming.

今天，我对社交媒体和视频游戏非常担心，在社交媒体上的视频游戏中，你可以看到最高水平的事情正在被完成，通常是由非常年轻或职业生涯早期的人完成，以至于可能有点让人不知所措。

And I think then we start measuring ourselves against metrics that are not about the experience.

我认为，然后我们开始根据与体验无关的指标来衡量自己。

That said, your parents, whatever they did worked out well enough that you became very proficient, right?

也就是说，你的父母，无论他们做什么都足够好，让你变得非常熟练，对吧？

You succeeded in getting into Juilliard, which, at least from my understanding, is the most competitive music preparatory, is that how you refer to it, that one can possibly go to?

你成功进入了茱莉亚学院，至少在我看来，这是最有竞争力的音乐预科学校，你是这么说的，一个人可以去吗？

And so at that point, had your identity merged with the behavior, and were you still enjoying yourself up until the point where you had this injury?

那么在那时，你的身份是否已与行为融为一体，并且直到你受伤之前你还在享受自己吗？

That we'll also talk about.

我们也会讨论这一点。

Maya Shankar: Yeah, I was still enjoying myself around the time when I auditioned for Juilliard, in particular, because of exactly what you said, which was that everything was kind of beating my expectations and my parents' expectations up until this point.

玛雅·香卡：是的，在我参加茱莉亚音乐学院试镜的时候，我仍然很享受，特别是因为正如你所说，到目前为止，一切都超出了我的期望和我父母的期望。

Which is that we didn't really have any, and so it all just felt like icing on the cake.

也就是说，我们实际上没有任何东西，所以这一切感觉就像锦上添花。

Wow!

哇！

Our kid's found something that they really love.

我们的孩子找到了他们真正喜欢的东西。

This is great, right?

这太棒了，对吧？

It can sometimes take you years, decades, to figure out what it is that you love, what you're passionate about.

有时你可能需要几年、几十年的时间才能弄清楚你喜欢什么，你对什么充满热情。

And I think we go through this renewal process often in our lives.

我认为我们在生活中经常经历这个更新过程。

I've had to have moments in life where I'm like, what do I like again?

我在生活中有时会想，我又喜欢什么？

What do I love again?

我又爱什么？

And so it's not also a onetime experience, but there was a thrilling aspect to my musical life when I was young, which was, again, everything kind of felt like, it's like, a bonus.

所以这也不是一次性的经历，但我年轻时的音乐生活有一个令人兴奋的方面，这又是，一切都感觉像是一种额外的奖励。

So one story I love sharing is about how I even got into Juilliard in the first place.

所以我喜欢分享的一个故事是关于我最初是如何进入茱莉亚音乐学院的。

So my dad's a theoretical physicist, as you mentioned.

正如你提到的，我父亲是一位理论物理学家。

My mom helps immigrants get green cards to study in this country.

我妈妈帮助移民获得绿卡以在这个国家学习。

Neither of them had exposure to the classical music sphere.

他们两人都没有接触过古典音乐领域。

So they're, like, the opposite of tiger parents.

所以他们就像老虎父母的对立面。

Like, even if they wanted to be tiger parents, they wouldn't know how to be tiger parents in this domain, because they lack the connections and the wherewithal to figure out what it would mean to go pro and to access the best teachers or whatever.

就像，即使他们想成为老虎父母，他们也不知道如何成为这个领域的老虎父母，因为他们缺乏联系和资金来弄清楚成为职业选手意味着什么以及接触最好的老师或其他什么。

So my mom, who is a very fearless person by nature, she knew that at some point, my passion for the violin was surpassing her ability to connect me with the right resources.

因此，我的妈妈本质上是一个非常无所畏惧的人，她知道在某种程度上，我对小提琴的热情超出了她为我联系正确资源的能力。

And so one weekend, we were in New York, awe-inspiring New York, and I had my violin with me because I had another audition, and we were just walking by Juilliard, the building.

所以一个周末，我们在纽约，令人敬畏的纽约，我带着小提琴，因为我还有另一场试镜，我们正路过茱莉亚音乐学院大楼。

And my mom was just eager for me to see it from the outside because it's just really cool as a kid, right?

我妈妈只是渴望我能从外面看到它，因为它作为一个孩子真的很酷，对吧？

It's like, all your musical idols went to this place.

就像，你所有的音乐偶像都去过这个地方。

I just wanted to see it and imagine what it would have been like for Perlman to go in and out and Midori to go in and out, Yo-Yo Ma, like, it's so exciting.

我只是想看看，想象一下帕尔曼进进出出、米多里进进出出的感觉，马友友，太令人兴奋了。

And as we're passing the entrance, my mom looks at me and says, hey, why don't we just go in?

当我们经过入口时，我妈妈看着我说，嘿，我们为什么不进去呢？

And I was like, what are you talking about?

我当时想，你在说什么？

She's like, let's just go in.

她说，我们进去吧。

What's the worst thing that can happen?

可能发生的最糟糕的事情是什么？

And I'm like, security guards and a lot of other terrible things, Mom, right?

我想，保安和很多其他可怕的事情，妈妈，对吧？

But I had a useful enthusiasm that propelled me into the building that day.

但那天我有一种有用的热情推动我走进大楼。

She strikes up a conversation with a fellow student and her mom, finds out that she's studying with a top teacher at Juilliard, asks if we can get an introduction.

她与一位同学和她的妈妈攀谈起来，发现她正在茱莉亚音乐学院跟随一位顶级老师学习，询问我们是否可以得到介绍。

Within an hour, I'm auditioning for this teacher on the spot.

一个小时之内，我就现场面试了这位老师。

Right.

正确的。

No idea that this was going to happen.

不知道这会发生。

Andrew Huberman: Wild!

安德鲁·休伯曼：狂野！

Maya Shankar: Yeah, he tells me...

玛雅香卡：是的，他告诉我......

he has what I refer to as a muted enthusiasm about my playing.

他对我的演奏有着我所说的一种温和的热情。

Doesn't think I'm great, but, sees something, he told me later he liked my personality, my enthusiasm.

不认为我很棒，但是，看到了一些东西，他后来告诉我他喜欢我的个性，我的热情。

So I got the personality card coming out of that music audition.

所以我从音乐试镜中得到了个性卡。

Great.

伟大的。

And what he did is he said, look, I'm with you.

他所做的是他说，看，我和你在一起。

I don't think that you're ready.

我认为你还没有准备好。

You would not get into Juilliard if you auditioned today.

如果你今天参加试镜，你就不会进入茱莉亚音乐学院。

However, I take residence at a summer music program in Colorado.

然而，我参加了科罗拉多州的一个夏季音乐项目。

If you come there for five weeks, we can do an intense boot camp where I try to skill you up and get you to learn your first scale and your first etude, which you will need to pass the Juilliard audition, and also maybe, hopefully get you to read music a little bit better than you can right now.

如果你来这里五周，我们可以举办一个激烈的训练营，我会尽力提高你的技能，让你学习你的第一个音阶和你的第一首练习曲，这是你通过茱莉亚音乐学院试镜所需要的，也许，希望能让你比现在更好地读乐。

And I went to that summer camp, and I worked my butt off.

我去了那个夏令营，我拼命工作。

I mean, you're also in this incredibly intensive environment where everyone your age is there and they're all practicing like their age equivalent, right?

我的意思是，你也在这个极其密集的环境中，每个与你同龄的人都在那里，他们都像同龄人一样练习，对吧？

And so I felt very inspired by that.

所以我受到了很大的启发。

And I ended up getting into Juilliard in the fall.

我最终在秋天进入了茱莉亚音乐学院。

And it was such a wonderful reminder that when opportunities are not served on a silver platter for you, you just have to have this kind of imaginative courage.

这真是一个美妙的提醒，当机会不是白白送给你的时候，你只需要拥有这种富有想象力的勇气。

And what my mom had that day.

还有我妈妈那天吃的东西。

To figure out a path from point A to point B, she really just created a plate for me and said, like, okay, you're prepared for this thing.

为了找出从 A 点到 B 点的路径，她实际上只是为我创建了一个盘子，然后说，好吧，你已经为这件事做好了准备。

We're going to get you in front of this teacher.

我们要把你带到这位老师面前。

And that's a lesson I've used time and time again.

这是我一次又一次使用的教训。

When I felt like there was something cool I could be doing, the opportunity did not exist.

当我觉得我可以做一些很酷的事情时，机会并不存在。

So, for example, when I was in the White House, the job that I wanted, which was to be a practitioner of behavioral science, did not exist.

因此，举例来说，当我在白宫时，我想要的工作，即行为科学的实践者，并不存在。

And so I sent cold emails and I pitched them on the idea of creating a new position for a behavioral science advisor.

因此，我发送了冷冰冰的电子邮件，并向他们推销了为行为科学顾问创建一个新职位的想法。

And then I said, hey, by the way, if you create this position, could you also consider hiring me to play that job, even though I've had no public policy experience and I've been an academic for the entirety of my adult life?

然后我说，嘿，顺便说一句，如果你创造了这个职位，你是否也可以考虑雇用我来担任这份工作，即使我没有公共政策经验，而且我整个成年生活都是学者？

And they said yes.

他们说是的。

And so it was such an energizing lesson to learn as a young kid, which is like, you can do the cold call.

所以这是一个让我小时候学习的充满活力的课程，就像你可以打推销电话一样。

Oftentimes there's few consequences.

通常情况下，后果很少。

You'll just get rejected.

你只会被拒绝。

I mean, that's truly the worst thing that's going to happen.

我的意思是，这确实是将会发生的最糟糕的事情。

But it's one thing to be told that, it's another thing to have lived the experience out and to see how amazing the aftermath can be.

但被告知是一回事，亲身经历并看到后果有多么惊人又是另一回事。

And that's what I got to experience as a young kid.

这就是我小时候所经历的。

Andrew Huberman: Amazing.

安德鲁·休伯曼：太棒了。

So let's all express some thanks to your mom for barging in the door, and to you, because you also had the agency to do the audition on the spot.

所以，让我们都向你妈妈的闯门表示感谢，也向你表示感谢，因为你也有经纪公司在现场进行试镜。

I think a lot of kids and adults would have thought, I'm not ready, I'm not going to do this, but it takes a certain gumption to just do it, right, and also to integrate the feedback.

我想很多孩子和成年人都会想，我还没有准备好，我不会这样做，但是需要一定的进取心才能做到这一点，对吧，还要整合反馈。

And then I'm curious about this camp.

然后我对这个营地很好奇。

I went to a few camps of different types, crashed a few camps.

我去过几个不同类型的营地，也闯过几个营地。

That's a different story.

那是一个不同的故事。

Turns out if you show up, you can get by for a few days before they realize that you're not one of the main, oh, yeah, no, there's a whole other set of stories there.

事实证明，如果你出现，你可以度过几天，然后他们就会意识到你不是主要人物之一，哦，是的，不，那里还有一整套其他的故事。

Maya Shankar: I love it.

玛雅香卡：我喜欢。

Andrew Huberman: But I'm curious.

安德鲁·休伯曼：但我很好奇。

You're among very driven, maybe even obsessive kids.

你们是一群非常有动力、甚至可能有强迫症的孩子。

Were they nice to one another?

他们彼此友善吗？

Do you recall the kid that was the best?

你还记得那个最好的孩子吗？

Maya Shankar: Oh, yeah.

玛雅·香卡：哦，是的。

Rachel Lee.

雷切尔·李.

Andrew Huberman: There you go.

安德鲁·休伯曼： 就这样。

Isn't this incredible?

这不是不可思议吗？

Maya Shankar: Oh, my God.

玛雅·香卡：哦，天啊。

Andrew Huberman: We remember these names.

安德鲁·休伯曼：我们记住这些名字。

Maya Shankar: Yeah.

玛雅·香卡：是的。

Total prodigy.

完全的神童。

I bristle when people say, Maya was a young violin prodigy.

当人们说玛雅是一位年轻的小提琴神童时，我感到愤怒。

I'm like, no, I wasn't.

我想，不，我不是。

And there's no false humility in my saying that.

我这样说并没有虚假的谦虚。

I just actually saw what prodigies were like and I was not one of them.

我只是真正看到了神童的样子，但我不是他们中的一员。

I mean, truly, just talk about awe-inspiring.

我的意思是，真的，只是谈论令人敬畏。

I'm like, how is it that music comes so effortlessly to Rachel?

我想，为什么音乐对雷切尔来说如此轻松？

I feel like she was born with a violin in her hands.

我感觉她生来就手里拿着一把小提琴。

I mean, that's how it felt whenever I watched her play.

我的意思是，每当我看她比赛时就有这种感觉。

And it's a double-edged sword.

这是一把双刃剑。

On the one hand, you're deriving inspiration from the incredible talent you see around you.

一方面，你从周围看到的令人难以置信的人才中获得灵感。

On the other hand, you feel demoralized so often because you're running up against whatever limitations exist when it comes to your natural talent and your work ethic.

另一方面，你经常感到士气低落，因为在你的天赋和职业道德方面，你遇到了任何限制。

At the end of the day, I was never the hardest working violinist.

归根结底，我从来都不是最努力的小提琴家。

My mom insisted that we were well-rounded kids.

我妈妈坚持认为我们是全面发展的孩子。

I played soccer all through elementary school.

我整个小学都踢足球。

I auditioned for the school play, "Really Rosie," I did art classes.

我参加了学校戏剧《真的是罗西》的试镜，我还上了艺术课。

It was just really important to both my parents.

这对我的父母来说都非常重要。

I think that we had just, like, relatively normal lives.

我认为我们的生活相对正常。

And I was studying alongside kids who had literally left half their families behind in their home country, had moved with one parent to a studio apartment in Manhattan or in Colorado for this camp, and were devoting their entire lives to this pursuit.

我和孩子们一起学习，他们实际上把一半的家人留在了自己的祖国，与父母之一搬到曼哈顿或科罗拉多州的一间单间公寓参加这个夏令营，并把一生都奉献给了这一追求。

And so I felt like, I was a super envious kid.

所以我觉得，我是一个超级嫉妒的孩子。

Like, I was always looking around, being like, I suck, and they're great, right?

就像，我总是环顾四周，就像，我很糟糕，但他们很棒，对吧？

We talked about having a self-critical personality--

我们谈到了自我批评的性格——

Andrew Huberman: --I think a lot of kids feel that way.

安德鲁·休伯曼：——我想很多孩子都有这种感觉。

I think at that age, and this sometimes extends into adulthood, we have this tendency to try and find benchmarks of where we are.

我认为在那个年龄，有时会延伸到成年，我们有这种倾向，试图找到我们所处位置的基准。

And sometimes that turns into a hierarchical thing, sometimes very lateralized.

有时这会变成一种等级制度，有时非常偏侧化。

But trying to figure out where you are in the landscape of things, it just seems like it's fundamental to the teenage experience.

但试图弄清楚你在事物的景观中处于什么位置，这似乎是青少年经历的基础。

Maya Shankar: Yeah, your universe shrinks, too, right?

玛雅香卡：是的，你的宇宙也在缩小，对吧？

So you're no longer getting access to what the average kid violinist sounds like.

所以你不再能听到普通儿童小提琴家的声音。

I mean, you're in the elite of the elite.

我的意思是，你是精英中的精英。

And so it's so intimidating.

所以它是如此令人生畏。

And I felt like what happened is, especially when I became a teenager, so two things happened when I became a teenager.

我觉得发生的事情是，特别是当我成为青少年时，所以当我成为青少年时发生了两件事。

The first is that my violin life just started to speed forward.

首先是我的小提琴生活才刚刚开始加速前进。

So Itzhak Perlman invited me to be his private violin student, considered the best violinist in the world.

因此伊扎克·帕尔曼邀请我成为他的私人小提琴学生，他被认为是世界上最好的小提琴家。

It was an incredible experience.

这是一次令人难以置信的经历。

I felt so overwhelmed, even by the opportunity.

即使有机会，我也感到不知所措。

I'd also stumbled upon MTV and was like, do I even want to do classical music?

我还偶然发现了 MTV，然后想，我是否想做古典音乐？

Like, Britney Spears is doing much cooler things?

比如，布兰妮·斯皮尔斯正在做更酷的事情？

So that was my version of teenage rebellion, was coming home from school, and when I should have been practicing, watching MTV.

这就是我的青少年叛逆版本，放学回家，当我应该练习、看 MTV 的时候。

But the other thing that happened is I went through the natural teenage process, which is I became very self-conscious.

但发生的另一件事是我经历了自然的青少年过程，这就是我变得非常自我意识。

I became more insecure.

我变得更加没有安全感。

I was trying to figure out who I was, who I am.

我试图弄清楚我是谁，我是谁。

And I think that was the period of my life, my high school years, when I was the least happy as a violinist.

我认为那是我一生中的一段时期，即我的高中时期，是我作为小提琴手最不快乐的时期。

So I described to you earlier that incredibly awe-inspiring experience of listening to the Beethoven violin concerto and it feeling otherworldly and feeling like I could see a world beyond my own personal wants and needs and desires.

因此，我之前向您描述了聆听贝多芬小提琴协奏曲的令人难以置信的令人惊叹的体验，感觉超凡脱俗，感觉就像我可以看到一个超越我个人需求和欲望的世界。

It really made me feel small against the backdrop of this magnificent world.

在这个宏伟的世界的映衬下，我真的感到自己很渺小。

And I liked that feeling of smallness.

我喜欢这种渺小的感觉。

And when I was in my teenage years, we're all in this highly narcissistic state of mind.

当我十几岁的时候，我们都处于这种高度自恋的心态。

We're consumed with ourselves and how we feel.

我们沉迷于自己和自己的感受。

And I just felt like I gave some of my worst performances when I was a teenager.

我只是觉得我在青少年时期表现得最糟糕。

And I often found, to your point, about these pressure cooker environments.

对于你的观点，我经常发现这些高压锅环境。

My best performances were actually just to the public.

我最好的表演实际上只是向公众展示的。

My worst performances were when I was in my little studio, having to play for my peers.

我最糟糕的表演是当我在我的小工作室里，不得不为我的同龄人演奏时。

That just sapped all the joy out for me because I was just, like, really tough on myself.

这让我失去了所有的快乐，因为我对自己非常严格。

And that was a period of time where I lost touch with what it is that I loved about music.

那段时间我失去了对音乐的热爱。

And of course, there's an ebb and flow.

当然，也有潮起潮落。

I had magical experiences playing the violin when I was a high schooler.

当我还是一名高中生时，我曾有过拉小提琴的神奇经历。

But I just think if you were to do the average of joy, like pre-12 and then post-12, the average joy was much higher before I became a teenager.

但我只是认为，如果你要衡量12岁前和12岁后的平均快乐程度，那么在我十几岁之前，平均快乐要高得多。

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, there's so many things to extrapolate from that.

Andrew Huberman：是的，从中可以推断出很多东西。

I really feel that when we get into a mode of trying to hit milestones that are extrinsic, that it really can undermine our love of what we're doing.

我真的觉得，当我们进入一种试图达到外在里程碑的模式时，它真的会破坏我们对所做事情的热爱。

But if we keep going and we can reframe what those external rewards are, in part by just realizing that they're so transient compared to the delight that we can experience.

但如果我们继续前进，我们就可以重新定义这些外部奖励是什么，部分原因是我们意识到，与我们能够体验到的快乐相比，它们是如此短暂。

What I mean is that I don't think of delight as something that wells up in us and then dissipates.

我的意思是，我不认为快乐是一种在我们内心涌起然后消散的东西。

I think of it as something that changes our nervous system in a way that gives us access to new abilities.

我认为它可以改变我们的神经系统，让我们获得新的能力。

I really do.

我真的这么做。

I mean, being a faculty member at Stanford, you look to your left, you look to your right, and it's like literally in the building, I mean, I've got a Nobel Prize winner below me.

我的意思是，作为斯坦福大学的一名教员，你向左看，向右看，就像在大楼里一样，我的意思是，我下面有一位诺贝尔奖获得者。

Like the people by me, I've got MacArthur Award winners all over the place, like everywhere you turn, and these people do other things, too.

就像我身边的人一样，我身边到处都有麦克阿瑟奖获得者，就像你所到之处一样，这些人也做其他事情。

So also D1 athletes, and they've got five kids, and all their kids seem to be doing great.

D1 运动员也是如此，他们有五个孩子，而且他们所有的孩子似乎都表现得很好。

Who are these people?

这些人是谁？

And it becomes very important in that environment to just shrink your spirits, like, what's one foot in front of you and just keep going and not pay attention.

在那种环境下，收缩你的精神就变得非常重要，比如，一只脚在你面前，继续前进，不去注意。

But it's hard to do, not by way of comparison, because I actually get excited about being immersed in a group where everyone's doing well.

但这很难做到，不是通过比较，因为我实际上对融入一个每个人都表现出色的团队感到兴奋。

I do think being among all these other incredibly talented and driven, although you carefully said, and importantly said rather, that you did not see yourself as talented, it's very clear that you have a ton of grit and hard work clearly went into it.

我确实认为，在所有这些令人难以置信的才华横溢和动力十足的人中，尽管你仔细地说，而且更重要的是，你不认为自己有才华，但很明显，你有大量的勇气和努力工作。

I think that word talent can be a little bit misleading, so we want to underscore the fact that you've worked incredibly hard.

我认为“天赋”这个词可能有点误导，所以我们想强调这样一个事实：你工作得非常努力。

But I think that it's a tough thing.

但我认为这是一件很难的事情。

It's hard for us to develop much in isolation, and it's also hard for us to stay connected to the source.

我们很难孤立地发展，也很难与源头保持联系。

Maya Shankar: Yes, exactly.

玛雅·香卡：是的，完全正确。

Andrew Huberman: And that's a word that I stole from a former guest on this podcast and a good friend of mine who's the great Rick Rubin, one of the most successful music producers, rock and roll music producers, of all.

安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman）：这是我从这个播客的一位前嘉宾那里偷来的一句话，他也是我的一个好朋友，他是伟大的里克·鲁宾（Rick Rubin），他是最成功的音乐制作人、摇滚音乐制作人之一。

Maya Shankar: I loved that interview.

玛雅·香卡：我喜欢那次采访。

Andrew Huberman: He talks about the source, so there are so many different trails we could go down here.

Andrew Huberman：他谈到了来源，所以我们可以在这里走很多不同的路线。

Just one thing, briefly, is I, again, am completely miserable at music, but I once saw Itzhak Perlman in the airport with his family.

简而言之，我再次对音乐完全感到痛苦，但我曾经在机场看到伊扎克·帕尔曼和他的家人。

I was with my father, who's a huge classical music fan, and we watched him, and he said, watch.

我和我的父亲在一起，他是一位古典音乐的超级粉丝，我们看着他，他说，看。

And it turns out he was getting onto our plane.

事实证明他正在登上我们的飞机。

He sat in first class next to his, I presume, Stradivarius violin.

我猜他坐在头等舱里，旁边是他的斯特拉迪瓦里小提琴。

His violin got a first-class seat.

他的小提琴得到了头等舱的座位。

He got a first-class seat, and his family sat across from him.

他坐的是头等舱，他的家人坐在他对面。

And my dad said, his violin is so important that it gets its own first-class seat.

我爸爸说，他的小提琴是如此重要，以至于它拥有自己的头等舱座位。

I couldn't believe it.

我简直不敢相信。

So great.

太棒了。

In any event--

无论如何——

Maya Shankar: --I think, just one thing to your point, one reflection I've had, and this kind of goes back to this question of identity, which is when you are in these very competitive environments, and again, I'm sure a lot of people listening are in very competitive environments, you feel that so much can be taken away from you, just in terms of mental well-being, because you're always looking at the world through a comparative lens.

玛雅·香卡：——我想，只有一件事符合你的观点，我也有过这样的反思，这又回到了身份问题，即当你处于竞争非常激烈的环境中时，我确信很多听众都处于竞争非常激烈的环境中，你会觉得，就心理健康而言，你会被剥夺很多东西，因为你总是通过比较的视角来看待世界。

You're benchmarking yourself, as you said, like there's a benchmark, and where do I fall on the continuum of mediocre to great?

正如你所说，你正在对自己进行基准测试，就像有一个基准一样，而我在平庸到优秀的连续体中处于什么位置？

I don't know, and yesterday I had a terrible performance, so that's going to set me back, etc., etc. I have found that when I reanchor myself to what Rick Rubin referred to as the source and identify the characteristics of music or other pursuits, that really energizes me.

我不知道，昨天我的表现很糟糕，所以这会让我倒退，等等。我发现，当我将自己重新定位到里克·鲁宾所说的源头并确定音乐或其他追求的特征时，这真的让我充满活力。

It feels like I'm actually insulated from a lot of the external noise, and I bring a lot more clarity and focus to the work that I do every day.

感觉就像我实际上隔绝了很多外部噪音，并且我为每天所做的工作带来了更多的清晰度和注意力。

So there's two things that I think define me as a person — at least right now, I allow for that malleability.

所以我认为有两件事定义了我作为一个人——至少现在，我允许这种可塑性。

One is that I'm a deeply curious person.

一是我是一个好奇心很强的人。

And the second is that I really relish getting better at things.

第二是我真的很喜欢在事情上变得更好。

I love seeing progress internally.

我喜欢看到内部的进步。

And in my violin life, no one could take those two things away from me.

在我的小提琴生涯中，没有人能把这两件事从我身边夺走。

In my current life as a cognitive scientist, as a podcaster, you just can't take those from me.

在我目前作为一名认知科学家和播客的生活中，你无法从我这里夺走这些。

No one can take that joy from me.

没有人能夺走我的这份快乐。

And it feels protective in a really important way, which is, for example, just like you.

它以一种非常重要的方式感受到保护，例如，就像你一样。

I mean, I see the labor of love that you put into the Huberman Lab podcast.

我的意思是，我看到了您在休伯曼实验室播客中投入的爱的劳动。

It's extraordinary.

这是非凡的。

I put so much time and energy and thoughtfulness and love into making A Slight Change of Plans, but at the end of the day, when you put the episode out into the world, you just don't get to control what the reaction is, right?

我投入了大量的时间、精力、深思熟虑和热爱来制作《计划的轻微改变》，但最终，当你把这一集公之于众时，你只是无法控制反应是什么，对吧？

Your favorite episode might not be everyone else's favorite episode, and that's just something you have to deal with.

您最喜欢的剧集可能不是其他人最喜欢的剧集，这只是您必须处理的事情。

But what I found is that if I really relished the process of making the episode, it fed that curiosity.

但我发现，如果我真的很喜欢制作这一集的过程，它就会满足我的好奇心。

And I got better as an interviewer, I got better as a thinker.

作为一名采访者，我变得更好，作为一个思考者，我也变得更好。

I got more clarity on a topic that I was curious about.

我对我感兴趣的话题有了更清晰的认识。

I mean, it gives me a foundation that feels really sturdy.

我的意思是，它给了我一个感觉非常坚固的基础。

Do you know what I mean?

你知道我的意思吗？

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, well, those things are intrinsic to you, and they are, I guess, now we're using nomenclature, but they're not what we would call domain specific, like the curiosity, the desire for progress through effort and through focus.

安德鲁·休伯曼：是的，嗯，这些东西是你固有的，我想，它们现在我们正在使用术语，但它们不是我们所说的特定领域，比如好奇心，通过努力和专注取得进步的愿望。

Those are music.

这些都是音乐。

They're not music irrelevant, but they're music independent.

它们并不是与音乐无关，而是独立于音乐。

And that actually brings me to a very important component of your work and your life arc, which is this notion of recreating and refinding identity in new endeavors.

这实际上让我想到了你的工作和生活的一个非常重要的组成部分，那就是在新的努力中重新创造和重新寻找身份的概念。

So if I understand correctly, and hopefully you'll embellish on this, you had the unfortunate, perhaps unfortunate experience of playing the violin and then injuring your finger very badly to the point where it was, at least for your music career, career-ending, absolutely.

所以，如果我理解正确的话，希望你能对此进行补充，你有过不幸的、也许不幸的拉小提琴的经历，然后你的手指严重受伤，至少对你的音乐生涯来说，绝对是职业生涯的结束。

And that happened when you were how old?

那是在你几岁的时候发生的？

Maya Shankar: I was 15.

玛雅·香卡：我当时 15 岁。

Andrew Huberman: So given how much of your identity and energy was put into violin, that must have been devastating.

安德鲁·休伯曼：考虑到你在小提琴上投入了多少身份和精力，这一定是毁灭性的。

And yet you've obviously, I don't want to say re-created yourself, because I like the idea that this essence within you has many opportunities and forms.

但显然，我不想说你重新创造了自己，因为我喜欢这样的想法：你内在的本质有很多机会和形式。

And I like it as an example for everybody having some essence of many things that could give them delight, and that it's something about the feelings associated with a given choice of occupation or hobby or behavior, or perhaps relationship.

我喜欢把它作为一个例子，让每个人都拥有许多可以给他们带来快乐的事物的本质，而这与与特定的职业、爱好、行为、或者关系的选择相关的感受有关。

Relationships end sometimes by decision, death or otherwise, and people are devastated.

关系有时会因决定、死亡或其他原因而结束，人们会感到悲痛欲绝。

Their identities are completely, at least in their minds, obliterated.

他们的身份被彻底抹杀了，至少在他们心里是这样。

And then people have this amazing ability to re-create themselves and new circumstances.

然后人们就有了重新创造自己和新环境的惊人能力。

So if you could take us back to the time when you were 15, you have this injury.

所以如果你能带我们回到你 15 岁的时候，你就受到了这种伤害。

What was your initial mindset in the days and weeks after that, and then, if you would, could you link that up to some of what I see as incredibly important work that you've done, helping people understand not just who they are, but how to identify the components of who they are that are truly indomitable, that just cannot go away.

在那之后的几天和几周里，你最初的心态是什么，然后，如果你愿意的话，你能否将其与你所做的一些我认为非常重要的工作联系起来，帮助人们不仅了解他们是谁，而且如何识别他们真正不屈不挠的组成部分，这些组成部分是无法消失的。

Like, your drive for curiosity and hard work--.

比如，你的好奇心和努力工作的动力——。

Maya Shankar: --And human connection.

玛雅香卡：——以及人际关系。

Yeah.

是的。

In the days and weeks and months and year after, I felt terrible.

在接下来的几天、几周、几个月和一年里，我感觉很糟糕。

It was awful because I think, in my case, also, when you're a kid who's really bubbly and energetic, you just kind of move forward, and you don't always think about how identity-defining the thing you're doing is, you just do it.

这很糟糕，因为我认为，就我而言，当你是一个非常活泼和精力充沛的孩子时，你只是向前迈进，你并不总是考虑你正在做的事情是如何定义身份的，你只是去做。

And so it was really interesting, I think, in losing the violin, that's actually when it became so salient to me how much the instrument had meant to me and had defined who I was.

所以我认为，在失去小提琴的过程中，这真的很有趣，实际上，这对我来说变得如此重要，这件乐器对我来说意义重大，并定义了我是谁。

And so I felt a dampening of some of my more organic traits.

所以我感到我的一些更有机的特征受到了抑制。

Like, I was less curious for a long time.

就像，我很长一段时间都不那么好奇了。

Andrew Huberman: I'm going to interrupt you on purpose.

Andrew Huberman：我是故意打断你的。

I apologize.

我道歉。

But at the same time, I'm not apologizing, because there was something that you said in a prior discussion that just keeps ringing in my mind, which is that your body and your nervous system actually grew up around the violin.

但同时，我并没有道歉，因为你在之前的讨论中说过的话一直在我脑海中萦绕，那就是你的身体和你的神经系统实际上是围绕着小提琴长大的。

That, to me, was just...

那对我来说只是...

I will never forget that statement.

我永远不会忘记那句话。

I want to also thank you for it, because that, to me, is perhaps the most profound way to describe an experience of identity, is that your nervous system in your body isn't growing up with something or alongside it, but that much like a relationship of a human kind, humankind, that your body is actually developing around this object.

我还要为此感谢你，因为对我来说，这也许是描述身份体验的最深刻的方式，就是你体内的神经系统并不是随着某物或与之一起成长的，而是很像人类的关系，人类，你的身体实际上是围绕这个物体发展的。

Maya Shankar: It absolutely developed around the ergonomics of playing the violin.

Maya Shankar：它绝对是围绕拉小提琴的人体工程学而开发的。

So, to this day, my right shoulder is slightly elevated relative to my left because of all the hours I spent doing this.

因此，直到今天，由于我花了很多时间做这件事，我的右肩相对于左肩略有升高。

It makes strength training really annoying because I always have this slight imbalance, and I have a light scoliosis in my spine as well, also from this posture.

这让力量训练真的很烦人，因为我总是有这种轻微的不平衡，而且我的脊柱也有轻微的脊柱侧凸，也是由于这种姿势。

And, yeah, it feels intimate in a way.

是的，在某种程度上感觉很亲密。

It's like, wow, the shape of my body.

就像，哇，我的身体形状。

Like, my architecture was defined by this instrument.

就像，我的架构是由这个工具定义的。

And so it's left this indelible imprint on me that will never go away.

所以它给我留下了永远不会消失的不可磨灭的印记。

And I think that a lot of us feel this disorientation, right?

我认为我们很多人都感到这种迷失方向，对吗？

So it might not be that you lost the ability to do something you love.

因此，您可能并没有失去做自己喜欢的事情的能力。

It could be that you lost someone that you love.

可能是你失去了你所爱的人。

It could be that you lost your mojo or whatever.

可能是你失去了魔力或者其他什么。

I mean, there's so many types of loss and so many kinds of grief we all experience as human beings.

我的意思是，作为人类，我们都会经历很多类型的损失和悲伤。

And I think in all those cases, again, it really feels like the rug has been pulled out from under you because this thing that gave you so much meaning and so much purpose and so much energy in life no longer exists.

我认为在所有这些情况下，再次感觉就像地毯被从你身下拔掉一样，因为这个给你生命带来如此多意义、如此多目标和如此多能量的东西已经不复存在了。

And so I think, for a while, yeah, I felt kind of like, lost at sea, and I assumed I'll never find anything that I'm as passionate about.

所以我想，有一段时间，是的，我感觉有点像迷失在大海中，我以为我永远不会找到我如此热衷的东西。

And I think, what my dad did for me at that, you know, theoretical physicist.

我想，我父亲为我做了什么，你知道，理论物理学家。

So he's an academic, and he said, I think you should just read a lot.

所以他是一名学者，他说，我认为你应该多读书。

Just, like, read a bunch of stuff.

只是，就像，读了一堆东西。

And I was like, okay, I mean, I'm supposed to be in China this summer touring with my classmates.

我当时想，好吧，我的意思是，今年夏天我应该和我的同学一起去中国巡演。

I am at home in Connecticut with my parents, perusing their bookshelf.

我和父母在康涅狄格州的家里，正在翻阅他们的书架。

So, like, slightly less cool summer situation.

所以，就像，夏天的情况稍微不太凉爽。

But I had a lot of time on my hands because I wasn't in Shanghai.

但我有很多空闲时间，因为我不在上海。

So I started perusing the bookshelf, and then I came across this pop-science book called "The Language Instinct," by Stephen Pinker.

于是我开始仔细阅读书架，然后我发现了斯蒂芬·平克（Stephen Pinker）写的这本科普书，名为《语言本能》。

And that was a turning point for me.

这对我来说是一个转折点。

I mean, I was headed to college maybe later that year.

我的意思是，也许那年晚些时候我就要去上大学了。

I opened up this book, and it detailed our marvelous ability to comprehend and produce language.

我打开这本书，它详细介绍了我们理解和产生语言的非凡能力。

And up until this point in my life, I had completely taken language abilities for granted, just like something that I did, and I just kind of learned it along the way.

直到我生命中的这一点，我完全认为语言能力是理所当然的，就像我所做的事情一样，我只是一路上学会了它。

And when Pinker pulled the curtain back and revealed how sophisticated and complex the cognitive machinery is that's operating behind the scenes that gives rise to language, my mind was truly blown.

当平克拉开帷幕，揭示在幕后运作、产生语言的认知机制是多么复杂和复杂时，我的心真的被震撼了。

I was like, wow.

我当时想，哇。

I never thought about it, it's not like we are with three-year-olds, not like we sit down with them and we're like, this is a gerund.

我从来没有想过，这不像我们和三岁孩子在一起，不像我们和他们坐在一起，我们就像，这是一个动名词。

This is a past participle, whatever.

这是过去分词，无论如何。

They just learn because they have these kind of light switches in their brain that are activated on and off depending on what language they're learning.

他们只是学习，因为他们的大脑中有这种灯开关，这些灯开关的激活和关闭取决于他们正在学习的语言。

And it was so fascinating to learn about language development, about neurolinguistics, about syntax and semantics.

了解语言发展、神经语言学、句法和语义是非常令人着迷的。

I just remember thinking, language is fascinating.

我只记得我当时想，语言很迷人。

Cognition is fascinating.

认知是令人着迷的。

And I'm also now wondering about all these other systems that are in place.

我现在也想知道所有其他已经到位的系统。

So this is what's involved in language.

这就是语言所涉及的内容。

What's involved in the complex math equations our dads do, right?

我们的父亲所做的复杂数学方程涉及什么，对吗？

Like, what's involved in, what's the mental processing behind a new discovery or an insight or an aha moment or falling in love or falling out of love.

比如，新发现、洞察、顿悟、坠入爱河或失恋背后的心理过程是什么。

I mean, it just lit up my imagination.

我的意思是，它激发了我的想象力。

And very similar to you, Andrew, I love that we have this connection.

安德鲁，与你非常相似，我喜欢我们有这种联系。

You said when you learned about neurobiology and neuroscience, you saw that there was a place for yourself in there.

你说当你学习神经生物学和神经科学时，你发现那里有你自己的一席之地。

And I remember reading this book, and because it was a pop-science book, and I love pop-science books because sometimes, even if they don't fully do justice to the science, they can take someone who's never had any exposure to the subject matter, and it's thrilling to learn about the thing, right?

我记得读过这本书，因为它是一本科普书，我喜欢科普书，因为有时，即使它们没有完全公正地对待科学，它们也可以帮助从未接触过该主题的人，了解这些东西是令人兴奋的，对吧？

I would never have gotten the same experience had I opened up an introduction to cognitive science textbook.

如果我打开一本认知科学导论教科书，我永远不会获得同样的经历。

It would not have had the same impact on me.

它不会对我产生同样的影响。

So, like, shout out to pop-science folks everywhere.

所以，就像向各地的科普人士大声喊叫。

Andrew Huberman: Thank you for saying, just thank you, because I think that many of my colleagues in academic science at Stanford and elsewhere feel that way, but I think many don't.

安德鲁·休伯曼：谢谢你说，只是谢谢你，因为我认为斯坦福大学和其他地方的许多学术科学同事都有这种感觉，但我认为很多人没有这种感觉。

They think of it as "dumbing down" of things.

他们认为这是对事物的“简化”。

But I'll tell you, rarely, if ever, does somebody just wander into a university classroom and hear a lecture by accident.

但我要告诉你，很少有人会偶然走进大学教室并听到讲座。

Maya Shankar: Andrew Huberman: I mean, maybe if your mom was at the helm, they all would.

玛雅·香卡：安德鲁·休伯曼：我的意思是，也许如果你妈妈掌舵，他们都会这么做。

So mom's everywhere, barge right in.

所以妈妈无处不在，直接闯进来。

But I think it's actually, I'll go a step further, and I'll do this so that you don't have to.

但我认为实际上，我会更进一步，我会这样做，这样你就不必这样做。

And these are not your words.

这些不是你的话。

These are mine.

这些是我的。

I think that there's actually a pretty intense arrogance to the idea within the established scientific community that pop-science books, while they might not be exhaustive, provided they're accurate and they're making an attempt to educate and draw people in from all sectors, amen to that.

我认为，在现有的科学界中，实际上有一种相当傲慢的想法，认为科普书籍虽然可能并不详尽，但只要它们是准确的，并且它们正在尝试教育和吸引来自各个领域的人们，阿们。

I just can't hear a counterargument in my head or elsewhere where that's not one of the best things that people can do.

我只是在我的脑海中或其他地方听不到反驳，因为这不是人们能做的最好的事情之一。

So regardless of people's motivations for picking them up in the first place, I mean, they brought a lot of people into the curiosity and delight that is science or music or...

因此，无论人们一开始学习它们的动机如何，我的意思是，它们让很多人对科学、音乐或……产生了好奇和喜悦。

I think that the more positive, benevolent, safe sensory experiences that we can expose young people to, the greater probability that we're going to flesh out those professions with the greatest number of diverse minds who are going to have the best ideas.

我认为，我们能让年轻人接触到的感官体验越积极、仁慈、安全，我们就越有可能让这些职业变得更加充实，拥有最多的多元化思想，他们将拥有最好的想法。

I think that there's a ton of foresight in what you're describing, that picking up a book is now, you're also now a Ph.D. in cognitive science, and you did your postdoc at Stanford.

我认为你所描述的内容很有远见，现在拿起一本书，你现在也是一名博士学位。在认知科学领域，你在斯坦福大学做了博士后。

I mean, you're a scientist, presumably because you went into the bookshelf and picked up that book.

我的意思是，你是一名科学家，大概是因为你走进书架拿起了那本书。

Maya Shankar: A hundred percent.

玛雅·香卡：百分之一百。

And I think it was also role modeled for me because my dad, despite being in a very, very technical field, spent a large part of his career actually working on the translation of complex subjects and trying to convey them to general audiences.

我认为这也是我的榜样，因为我的父亲尽管处于一个非常非常技术性的领域，但他职业生涯的很大一部分时间都花在了复杂主题的翻译上，并试图将它们传达给普通受众。

And I loved witnessing this because it's like, if you can figure out a way to communicate about theoretical physics to a general audience, I mean, wow, that's a masterful pursuit, right?

我喜欢见证这一点，因为如果你能找到一种方法向普通观众传达理论物理学，我的意思是，哇，这是一项高超的追求，对吧？

Andrew Huberman: Feynman.

安德鲁·休伯曼：费曼。

Richard Feynman.

理查德·费曼。

Maya Shankar: Yeah.

玛雅·香卡：是的。

Richard Feynman.

理查德·费曼。

Exactly.

确切地。

Andrew Huberman: No one really knows what Feynman did for his Nobel Prize work except physicists.

安德鲁·休伯曼：除了物理学家之外，没有人真正知道费曼为他的诺贝尔奖工作做了什么。

You know that most people, you ask them, what was Feynman's Nobel for?

你知道大多数人，你问他们，费曼获得诺贝尔奖是为了什么？

And they're like, I don't know.

他们就像，我不知道。

Maya Shankar: I don't know.

玛雅·香卡：我不知道。

Andrew Huberman: He said something about birds and taxonomy and how it's less interesting than, you know, quantum mechanics.

安德鲁·胡伯曼：他谈到了鸟类和分类学，以及它如何不如量子力学那么有趣。

Maya Shankar: And one of the reasons that I love Huberman Lab, and I just love the work you do, is that you are taking concepts that might have been inaccessible to the average person, and you're making science accessible.

玛雅·香卡：我喜欢休伯曼实验室以及您所做的工作的原因之一是，您正在采用普通人可能无法理解的概念，并且您正在使科学变得触手可及。

And I feel so much gratitude to every scientist out there, every researcher out there who thinks that it's worth their time to be a practitioner of their work.

我非常感谢每一位科学家、每一位研究人员，他们认为值得花时间成为他们工作的实践者。

Because ultimately, think about how many lives you're changing through the show by trying to break down some of these more complicated things into concepts that people can understand and relate to and actually act on.

因为最终，想想你通过这部剧试图将一些更复杂的事情分解成人们可以理解、联系并实际采取行动的概念，从而改变了多少人的生活。

And it also reminds me, part of my job when I was in the Obama administration was translating insights from behavioral science, from cognitive science into interventions that my government agency colleagues could implement in the Department of Veterans affairs, in the Department of Defense, Department of Education.

这也提醒我，我在奥巴马政府任职时的部分工作是将行为科学、认知科学的见解转化为我的政府机构同事可以在退伍军人事务部、国防部和教育部实施的干预措施。

And that same translation process was part of that effort, too.

同样的翻译过程也是这项工作的一部分。

And I think it's really, really hard to do well.

我认为要做好真的非常非常困难。

I respect it so much.

我非常尊重它。

I respect pop-science writers who do a good job so much.

我很尊重那些做得很好的科普作家。

And yeah, I think it's a wonderful service.

是的，我认为这是一项很棒的服务。

They don't have to spend their time writing these books.

他们不必花时间写这些书。

They could just publish more research papers, which is the currency that academic institutions care about.

他们可以发表更多的研究论文，这是学术机构关心的货币。

And so I see it as just like a public good, what they're doing.

所以我认为他们正在做的事情就像公益一样。

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, I do, too.

安德鲁·休伯曼：是的，我也这样做。

And right back at you, because you're doing it as well.

然后就回到你身上，因为你也在这样做。

And so we're all better off for it.

所以我们都会因此而变得更好。

So thank you.

所以谢谢你。

I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, InsideTracker.

我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商 InsideTracker。

InsideTracker is a personalized nutrition platform that analyzes data from your blood and DNA to help you better understand your body and help you meet your health goals.

InsideTracker 是一个个性化营养平台，可分析您的血液和 DNA 数据，帮助您更好地了解您的身体并帮助您实现健康目标。

I'm a big believer in getting regular blood work done for the simple reason that many of the factors that impact your immediate and long-term health can only be analyzed from a quality blood test.

我坚信定期进行血液检查，原因很简单，影响您当前和长期健康的许多因素只能通过高质量的血液测试来分析。

However, with a lot of blood tests out there, you get information back about blood lipids, about hormones and so on.

然而，通过大量的血液检查，您可以获得有关血脂、激素等的信息。

But you don't know what to do with that information.

但您不知道如何处理这些信息。

With InsideTracker, they have a personalized platform that makes it very easy to understand your data, that is, to understand what those lipids, what those hormone levels, etc. mean, and behavioral supplement, nutrition and other protocols to adjust those numbers to bring them into the ranges that are ideal for your immediate and long-term health.

借助 InsideTracker，他们拥有一个个性化平台，可以非常轻松地了解您的数据，即了解那些血脂、激素水平等的含义，以及行为补充、营养和其他方案来调整这些数字，使其达到适合您近期和长期健康的理想范围。

InsideTracker's ultimate plan now includes measures of both APO B and of insulin, which are key indicators of cardiovascular health and energy regulation.

InsideTracker 的最终计划现在包括 APO B 和胰岛素的测量，它们是心血管健康和能量调节的关键指标。

If you'd like to try InsideTracker, you can visit insidetracker.com/huberman to get 20% off any of InsideTracker's plans.

如果您想尝试 InsideTracker，可以访问 insidetracker.com/huberman，享受任何 InsideTracker 计划 20% 的折扣。

Again, that's insidetracker.com/huberman to get 20% off.

同样，在 insidetracker.com/huberman 上可以获得 20% 的折扣。

So I want to go back to this injury, to summer at home, to discovery of something new.

所以我想回到这次伤病，回到家里的夏天，发现一些新的东西。

Was it at that point that you realized, the feeling of excitement that I'm getting from learning about neurolinguistics and related topics is somehow similar to the excitement that I was feeling about the violin, or maybe even superseded that excitement?

就在那时，您是否意识到，我从学习神经语言学和相关主题中获得的兴奋感在某种程度上类似于我对小提琴的兴奋感，甚至可能取代了那种兴奋？

I mean, at what point were you able to make the pivot with confidence that this is the new trajectory?

我的意思是，你在什么时候能够自信地做出转变，相信这是新的轨迹？

And an important component of that that I'd like to understand is you also had to cut ties with the past, something that's very hard to do.

我想了解的一个重要组成部分是，你还必须切断与过去的联系，这是很难做到的。

I mean, I grew up with a number of kids who became very successful teen athletes, really.

我的意思是，我和很多孩子一起长大，他们真的成为了非常成功的青少年运动员。

And some of them, once they ceased to keep up or they had an injury or something, their identity stayed attached to the past in a way that did not allow them to move forward.

而他们中的一些人，一旦他们不再跟上或者受伤或者其他什么事情，他们的身份就会以一种不允许他们前进的方式依附于过去。

Fortunately, many of them did find new identities in business or in other endeavors.

幸运的是，他们中的许多人确实在商业或其他领域找到了新的身份。

Some became quite successful.

有些人变得相当成功。

But I've seen very often that when people achieve early success and then they hit a cliff, that it's very hard for them to part with that former identity.

但我经常看到，当人们取得早期成功，然后跌入悬崖时，他们就很难放弃以前的身份。

There's one of the perils of early success.

早期成功的危险之一。

Maya Shankar: Yeah, I wouldn't say that it superseded the excitement that I had with the violin.

玛雅香卡：是的，我不会说它取代了我对小提琴的兴奋。

I would say the quality of the excitement felt very different.

我想说的是，兴奋的感觉非常不同。

And that's actually important to convey because I think when someone loses the ability to have a passion, they're seeking exactly the same sensory experience, exactly the same high that they experienced the first time around.

传达这一点实际上很重要，因为我认为当一个人失去激情的能力时，他们会寻求与他们第一次经历的完全相同的感官体验，完全相同的高度。

And I think that's a really high bar.

我认为这是一个非常高的标准。

And sometimes it's more of an apples-and-oranges-type situation.

有时这更像是苹果和橘子类型的情况。

So with the violin, there was a really deep sensory aspect to the experience.

因此，对于小提琴来说，体验是一种非常深刻的感官体验。

I mean, I felt things, right, you're playing and then you're feeling things emotionally.

我的意思是，我感觉到了一些事情，对吧，你在演奏，然后你在情感上感受到了一些事情。

And it all felt super visceral, and that was where the passion emerged from.

这一切都让人感觉非常发自内心，这就是激情的来源。

It was just this very visceral feeling of, like, this is so beautiful and awesome, and I love it.

这只是一种发自内心的感觉，就像，这是如此美丽和令人敬畏，我喜欢它。

With the cognitive science stuff, my intellectual brain was delighted, and it's just like a different expression of passion.

有了认知科学的东西，我的智力大脑很高兴，这就像激情的不同表达。

I think the big pressure test was not if I had held myself to the bar of, do I love this as much as the violin, there's no way that I would have been confident enough to pursue anything at that point.

我认为最大的压力测试不是如果我让自己达到标准，我是否像喜欢小提琴一样喜欢这个，那时我不可能有足够的信心去追求任何东西。

So instead, I really think the question I asked myself at that time, which was a service to me and my more compromised psychology, was, am I curious enough about this thing to ask more questions about it?

所以相反，我真的认为我当时问自己的问题是，我对这件事足够好奇，可以问更多问题吗？这对我和我更妥协的心理是一种服务。

Do I want to learn more?

我想了解更多吗？

And I found, naturally, three days later, I went to the library, and I got another book on the cognitive science of language, and then I got a book on the science of decision-making.

三天后，我自然地发现，我去了图书馆，我得到了另一本关于语言认知科学的书，然后我又得到一本关于决策科学的书。

So there was curiosity, and honestly, that was all I needed.

所以有好奇心，老实说，这就是我所需要的。

That was the little seedling that I needed to see if it could go somewhere more.

这就是我需要的小树苗，看看它是否能去到更多的地方。

I took that as a very strong signal.

我认为这是一个非常强烈的信号。

Like, I care to learn more about this, and I don't care to learn about everything, right?

就像，我想了解更多这方面的知识，但我不想了解一切，对吧？

And I remember perusing the course book of my undergrad institution, and they had a cognitive science major, which was awesome because not all schools had one at the time.

我记得仔细阅读了我本科院校的课程书，他们有一个认知科学专业，这很棒，因为当时并不是所有学校都有这个专业。

It was a very new major.

这是一个非常新的专业。

It's interdisciplinary.

这是跨学科的。

You approach questions of the mind from multiple perspectives.

您从多个角度处理心灵问题。

So from the perspective of neuroscience, linguistics, philosophy, psychology, computer science, and anthropology.

所以从神经科学、语言学、哲学、心理学、计算机科学、人类学的角度来看。

So you're just like a bunch of different disciplines.

所以你们就像一群不同的学科。

But that was when I thought, ooh, I can at least see if I can get into this major.

但那时我就想，哦，我至少可以看看我是否可以进入这个专业。

I remember it was, like, a selective major.

我记得这是一个选择性专业。

It was selective.

这是有选择性的。

And so I freaked out, of course, and had super impostor syndrome.

当然，我吓坏了，得了超级骗子综合症。

It was like, I'm not going to get into the program.

就像，我不会参加这个计划。

But thankfully, I got in, and I think that's where I was able to connect, like, this little seedling of curiosity to the actual pursuit of the thing.

但值得庆幸的是，我加入了，我认为这就是我能够将好奇心的小苗与对事物的实际追求联系起来的地方。

And that's a really important translation, because there can often be a mismatch.

这是一个非常重要的翻译，因为经常会出现不匹配的情况。

You're really passionate about something, but you actually hate the process.

你确实对某件事充满热情，但实际上你讨厌这个过程。

Like, you hate the actual work that's involved in getting better at it.

就像，你讨厌为了提高成绩而进行的实际工作。

And I was lucky in my undergrad because I fought my way, my mom style, barging into classes that really would only accept seniors or juniors, and I was like, I'm a lowly freshman, but accept me.

我在本科时很幸运，因为我以我妈妈的方式奋斗，闯入真正只接受高年级或低年级学生的班级，我当时想，我是一个卑微的新生，但请接受我。

And I was able to run experiments on adults, and I was actually able to see what it would be like to be a researcher, to ask novel questions and to get the delight that you feel, right, when you're in a lab and you're actually testing out new hypotheses.

我能够在成年人身上进行实验，我实际上能够看到作为一名研究人员会是什么样子，提出新的问题并获得当你在实验室中实际测试新假设时所感受到的快乐。

And so it was really important that I saw that I not only was excited, but that I could actually enjoy parts of the process of getting better.

因此，非常重要的是，我看到自己不仅感到兴奋，而且实际上可以享受进步过程中的部分乐趣。

Andrew Huberman: I love your description of curiosity because it makes me think that in some way, it has something to do with a deep motivation and desire to figure out what's next or what's around the corner without an emotional attachment to the outcome.

安德鲁·胡伯曼：我喜欢你对好奇心的描述，因为它让我认为，在某种程度上，它与一种深层的动机和渴望有关，想要弄清楚接下来会发生什么或即将发生什么，而不会对结果产生情感依恋。

Curiosity is really just trying to figure out what's there as opposed to hoping that something specific is there.

好奇心实际上只是想弄清楚那里有什么，而不是希望那里有什么具体的东西。

And sometimes even the surprises are more exciting than our predictions.

有时甚至惊喜比我们的预测更令人兴奋。

I think the quote was initially from Dorothy Parker.

我认为这句话最初出自多萝西·帕克之口。

I think this is debated, but I think it was.

我认为这是有争议的，但我认为确实如此。

"The cure for boredom is curiosity.

“消除无聊的良药是好奇心。

There is no cure for curiosity."

好奇心是无法治愈的。”

Maya Shankar: Oh, that's awesome.

玛雅香卡：哦，那太棒了。

I hadn't heard that.

我没听说过。

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, I believe it was Dorothy Parker, sometimes misattributed to Agatha Christie, but I think it was Dorothy Parker.

安德鲁·休伯曼：是的，我相信是多萝西·帕克，有时被误认为是阿加莎·克里斯蒂，但我认为是多萝西·帕克。

And what I love about it is that there's something about curiosity, that when it's genuine, it's self-amplifying.

我喜欢的一点是，好奇心是真实的，它会自我放大。

It's an upward spiral, because there is no endpoint.

这是一个螺旋上升的过程，因为没有终点。

Right?

正确的？

I mean, that's one of the things that you learn early in science, is you learn, you test hypotheses, you get answers, and you get more questions, and you form hypotheses, and you do that until you die, basically.

我的意思是，这是你在科学早期学到的东西之一，就是你学习，你测试假设，你得到答案，你得到更多问题，你形成假设，基本上，你这样做直到你死。

And they can be a little bit dark.

它们可能有点暗。

But when you think about it as a journey, that it's just so much fun along the way.

但当你将其视为一次旅程时，你就会发现这一过程非常有趣。

If you're just really interested in knowing what the answers are without getting too attached to the answers, it just feels like, even as I'm describing it now, they just can just fill you up, and it provides more energy for the next round and the next round.

如果你只是真的有兴趣知道答案是什么，而又不太执着于答案，那么感觉就像我现在所描述的那样，它们只能让你感到充实，并且为下一轮和下一轮提供更多的能量。

And that really came through in your description of cognitive science.

这确实体现在你对认知科学的描述中。

I also find it interesting that you couldn't read sheet music, at least not very well.

我还发现有趣的是你看不懂乐谱，至少读得不是很好。

You were so deeply immersed in an endeavor, violin playing, that is not of verbal language.

你深深地沉浸在小提琴演奏中，这不是口头语言。

And then you went into a field that's about, or initially, you were sparked an interest in a field through an understanding of verbal language.

然后你进入了一个领域，或者最初，你通过对口头语言的理解激发了对该领域的兴趣。

And earlier you said that the thing that bridges the violin and what came next as a passion and pursuit was this desire for human connection.

早些时候你说过，连接小提琴和接下来的热情和追求的东西是对人与人之间联系的渴望。

At what point did you realize that?

你在什么时候意识到这一点？

And here I do want to emphasize that while we're talking about your story, I hope, I can only imagine that people are starting to think about what are the intrinsic points of motivation for what they're doing and what they've done, asking the sorts of questions that I hope everyone is asking.

在这里我确实想强调，当我们谈论你的故事时，我希望，我只能想象人们开始思考他们正在做的事情和他们已经做过的事情的内在动机是什么，提出我希望每个人都会问的问题。

What is it really that motivates me to love this and to see a place for myself in that?

到底是什么促使我热爱这个并在其中找到自己的位置？

Because those are ultimately, I think, the questions that everyone should and can ask.

因为我认为这些最终是每个人都应该而且可以提出的问题。

Maya Shankar: Yeah, it took me a really long time.

Maya Shankar：是的，我花了很长时间。

It's actually only been in the last few years that I've discovered this.

实际上直到最近几年我才发现这一点。

I discovered this as a result of creating A Slight Change of Plans.

我在创建“计划的轻微改变”时发现了这一点。

So my desire to create the show came from a very personal place, which is that I'm terrified of change.

所以我创作这个节目的愿望来自于一个非常个人的地方，那就是我害怕改变。

So even though I've had these formative experiences with change, I'm a creature of habit.

因此，尽管我经历了这些改变的形成性经历，但我仍然是一个习惯的生物。

I'm willing to change my habits.

我愿意改变我的习惯。

For example, I now take caffeine 90 minutes after I get up.

例如，我现在起床 90 分钟后服用咖啡因。

Andrew Huberman: How's that working for you?

安德鲁·休伯曼：这对你来说怎么样？

Maya Shankar: Very well, even today.

玛雅香卡：很好，即使在今天。

Okay.

好的。

I'm a good disciple.

我是一个好弟子。

Andrew Huberman: Well, I like to think that people afford themselves some flexibility if you got to run to the airport--

安德鲁·胡伯曼：嗯，我喜欢认为，如果你必须跑去机场，人们会给自己一些灵活性——

Maya Shankar: --Sixty to 90 minutes.

玛雅·香卡：——六十到九十分钟。

Andrew Huberman: Sixty and 90, or the occasional within 30 minutes if you have to, but nobody's perfect, nor should we strive.

Andrew Huberman：60 和 90，或者偶尔在 30 分钟内（如果有必要的话），但没有人是完美的，我们也不应该努力。

Maya Shankar: I'm a student.

玛雅香卡：我是一名学生。

I'm willing to update my habits, but I'm a creature of habit.

我愿意改变我的习惯，但我是一个习惯的生物。

And there's a couple of reasons why we, as humans, are scared of change.

作为人类，我们害怕改变有几个原因。

And I think one of them, which is incredibly relatable, is that change is filled with a lot of uncertainty, and we hate uncertainty.

我认为其中一个非常相关的问题是，变化充满了很多不确定性，而我们讨厌不确定性。

We will go to irrational lengths to avoid uncertainty.

我们将不遗余力地避免不确定性。

So one of my favorite studies coming out of cognitive sciences is one involving electric shocks.

因此，我最喜欢的认知科学研究之一是涉及电击的研究。

And what they found is that people are far more stressed when they're told they have a 50% chance of getting an electric shock than when they're told they have a 100% chance of getting an electric shock.

他们发现，当人们被告知自己有 50% 的可能性触电时，他们会比被告知自己有 100% 的可能性触电时承受更大的压力。

So we would rather be sure, certain that a bad thing is going to happen than to have to deal with any feelings of uncertainty and ambiguity.

因此，我们宁愿确定、确定坏事将会发生，也不愿应对任何不确定和模糊的感觉。

Andrew Huberman: Right.

安德鲁·休伯曼：对。

That result, I love that you brought up that result.

这个结果，我喜欢你提出这个结果。

It still is bewildering to me, because if you think about it, 100% trial-to-trial shock means you have to take on the, okay, bring it, just bring it on kind of mentality.

这仍然让我感到困惑，因为如果你仔细想想，100%的试验间冲击意味着你必须采取“好吧，带上它，只是带上它”的心态。

But if you did that for every trial, and then half of the trials, you don't get shocked.

但如果你每次试验都这样做，然后是一半的试验，你就不会感到震惊。

We know there's a dopamine release from the lack of punishment, so the ideal strategy is the same, and yet somehow, people are averse to the uncertainty.

我们知道，缺乏惩罚会释放多巴胺，因此理想的策略是相同的，但不知何故，人们厌恶这种不确定性。

Maya Shankar: Yeah, we don't like uncertainty, even though, again, the uncertainty is what drives that dopamine first.

玛雅·香卡：是的，我们不喜欢不确定性，尽管不确定性是首先驱动多巴胺的因素。

And yet we bristle, certainly, at that uncertainty.

然而，我们当然对这种不确定性感到愤怒。

And so I definitely am like, please, status quo, everyone, I would love the status quo.

所以我绝对喜欢现状，大家，我会喜欢现状。

Even when the status quo has been suboptimal, Andrew, I've been fine with the status quo.

即使现状并不理想，安德鲁，我也对现状感到满意。

So part of it came from my desire to figure out, okay, how is it...

所以部分原因是我想弄清楚，好吧，这是怎么回事......

Like, A Slight Change of Plans, marries science and storytelling to help us figure out strategies for better managing change.

比如，《计划的轻微改变》将科学和讲故事结合起来，帮助我们找出更好地管理变革的策略。

So I wanted to figure out, how are people coming to terms with uncertainty?

所以我想弄清楚，人们如何接受不确定性？

One of the things that I realized I learned from the guests on my show and also the scientists is there's this concept called cognitive closure, and it is the need to arrive at clear, definitive answers to things.

我意识到我从节目嘉宾和科学家那里学到的一件事是，有一个叫做认知封闭的概念，它是对事物得出清晰、明确的答案的需要。

It's basically the opposite of this open-ended curiosity that you just described, which is with cognitive closure, you have a need to, you aren't indifferent towards what the answers are.

这基本上与您刚才描述的这种开放式好奇心相反，即认知封闭，您有需要，您对答案并不漠不关心。

You aren't indifferent towards what the questions are.

你对问题的内容并不是漠不关心。

You care about everything.

你关心一切。

You care about micromanaging every part of the curious process from point A to point B.

您关心对从 A 点到 B 点的好奇过程的每个部分进行微观管理。

And there's a lot of research showing that when we reduce our need for cognitive closure, when we become a little bit more open to the unbidden, to mystery, more open to awe-inspiring experiences, we can experience huge boosts in well-being, and we can become a lot more resilient in the face of change.

有大量研究表明，当我们减少对认知封闭的需求，当我们对不请自来的、神秘的事物更加开放，对令人敬畏的体验更加开放时，我们的幸福感就会得到巨大的提升，并且在面对变化时我们会变得更有弹性。

So that's something that I'm working on, which is like, okay, maybe I can reduce my need for cognitive closure.

这就是我正在研究的事情，就像，好吧，也许我可以减少对认知封闭的需求。

And the other thing that I am starting to appreciate is one reason that we get change wrong and we maybe fear it more than we should is that when we anticipate what a change will be like in the future, we tend to imagine how our present day selves will respond to that future change, right?

我开始意识到的另一件事是我们错误地做出改变的一个原因，而且我们可能比我们应该更担心的是，当我们预测未来的变化会是什么样子时，我们倾向于想象我们现在的自己将如何应对未来的变化，对吗？

So it's almost like a magic mirror.

所以它几乎就像一面魔镜。

It's Maya in present day, going through this mirror, comes out the other side two years from now.

今天的玛雅人，穿过这面镜子，两年后从另一边出来。

She's the one who's overcoming the challenges of a diagnosis or some other life change.

她正在克服诊断或其他生活变化带来的挑战。

And what we forget is that the big changes in our lives can change us in pretty profound ways.

我们忘记的是，我们生活中的巨大变化可以以非常深刻的方式改变我们。

And when we recognize and we all fall prey to this illusion.

当我们认识到这一点时，我们都会陷入这种幻觉。

It's called the end-of-history illusion.

这被称为历史终结的幻觉。

So, this is work by Dan Gilbert.

这是丹·吉尔伯特的作品。

And basically what it says is we fully acknowledge that we've changed considerably in the past.

基本上它所说的是我们完全承认我们过去已经发生了很大的变化。

So you think back to your skateboard days, right?

所以你回想一下你的滑板时代，对吧？

I think back to my high school days, and I think, oh, my gosh, of course I've changed.

我回想起我的高中时代，我想，哦，天哪，我当然变了。

I would be embarrassed to listen to any interview I gave when I was younger, right?

我年轻时听任何采访都会感到尴尬，对吧？

Like, what were the thoughts I was even thinking?

就像，我当时在想什么？

So we will see it, absolutely.

所以我们绝对会看到它。

We were totally different 10 years ago, 20 years ago.

10年前、20年前我们完全不同。

But when it comes to thinking about the future and projecting into the future, we are absolutely convinced that who we are right now in this moment is the person that's here to stay.

但当谈到思考未来和预测未来时，我们绝对相信此时此刻的我们将永远留在这里。

And that can lead us astray when it comes to thinking about how we will respond to change, because we forget that there's actually a lot of wiggle room around who we become.

当我们思考如何应对变化时，这可能会让我们误入歧途，因为我们忘记了我们实际上有很大的回旋余地。

And to your point, I mean, I love the point you made about curiosity.

就你的观点而言，我的意思是，我喜欢你关于好奇心的观点。

What that means is we want to be curious, not just about the things we do.

这意味着我们想要好奇，而不仅仅是对我们所做的事情感到好奇。

We want to be curious about ourselves.

我们想要对自己感到好奇。

One huge lesson that I've learned from the interviews that I've had on A Slight Change of Plans is that I need to constantly be auditing myself through my change experience to figure out how I have changed.

我从《计划的轻微改变》的采访中学到的一个重要教训是，我需要不断地通过我的变革经历来审视自己，以弄清楚我是如何改变的。

Because when we experience change, it doesn't happen in a vacuum.

因为当我们经历变化时，它不会在真空中发生。

So let's say I get a promotion or I enter into a relationship, or I leave a relationship or some other, again, narrow slice of my life is altered.

假设我升职了，或者我开始了一段关系，或者我离开了一段关系，或者其他一些，我生活中的一小部分又被改变了。

We can think of that change as happening in a vacuum, right?

我们可以认为这种变化是在真空中发生的，对吗？

As being confined to just the unique area of our life that change exists in.

因为仅限于我们生活中存在变化的独特领域。

But, of course, we are incredibly complex creatures.

但是，当然，我们是极其复杂的生物。

Our psychology is incredibly complex.

我们的心理极其复杂。

We live in these remarkably complex ecosystems.

我们生活在这些非常复杂的生态系统中。

Change in one area of our life will inevitably have spillover effects into all other parts of our lives in ways that are extremely hard to predict.

我们生活某一领域的变化将不可避免地以极其难以预测的方式对我们生活的所有其他方面产生溢出效应。

I think a lot of your listeners are familiar with the research showing we're really bad cognitive forecasters, right?

我想你们的很多听众都熟悉这项研究，该研究表明我们的认知预测能力非常差，对吗？

We're bad at predicting what's going to make us happy, what's going to make us sad, how long we're going to be sad, how long we're going to be happy.

我们不擅长预测什么会让我们快乐，什么会让我们悲伤，我们会悲伤多久，我们会快乐多久。

Well, one of the reasons for that is that we forget that we are a dynamic entity that might change as well.

原因之一是我们忘记了我们是一个动态的实体，也可能会发生变化。

That our preferences might change, our choice, that might change, we might change in these really profound ways that we don't realize.

我们的偏好可能会改变，我们的选择可能会改变，我们可能会以我们没有意识到的这些真正深刻的方式改变。

I think there's an inspiring message coming out of this, which is, one, what we're capable of right now really might not be what we're capable of later, and what I found in my own experience is that it's interesting when it comes to our self-perception, because we have a first-person perspective on who we are, we tend to think that we have a very comprehensive, veridical understanding of who we are.

我认为这传达了一个鼓舞人心的信息，那就是，第一，我们现在能做的事情可能真的不是我们以后能做的事情，我在自己的经历中发现，当涉及到我们的自我认知时，这很有趣，因为我们对自己是谁有第一人称视角，我们倾向于认为我们对自己是谁有一个非常全面、真实的理解。

Like, I have a pretty good grasp of who I, Maya, am and what I'm capable of and what I value and what my identity is.

就像，我很清楚我是谁，玛雅，我有什么能力，我看重什么，我的身份是什么。

But the reality is that that understanding is based on the random set of data points that I've happened to collect over the course of my lifetime, based on the random set of experiences and opportunities and failures and successes that I've happened to have.

但事实是，这种理解是基于我一生中偶然收集的一组随机数据点，基于我碰巧拥有的一组随机经验、机会、失败和成功。

Right?

正确的？

Andrew Huberman: And if I'm not mistaken, there's a salience to the negative experiences, often for reasons that make sense according to nervous systems that want to keep us safe, etc. But, for instance, you remember the name of this child prodigy--

安德鲁·休伯曼：如果我没记错的话，负面经历是很明显的，通常是出于根据神经系统想要保证我们安全等有意义的原因。但是，例如，你记得这个神童的名字——

Maya Shankar: --Rachel Lee.

玛雅·香卡：——雷切尔·李。

Andrew Huberman: Rachel Lee.

安德鲁·休伯曼：雷切尔·李。

My sister still talks about, I won't say their names because we know that these people are still around, fortunately, the names of some of the girls in junior high school that were particularly popular and perhaps not--

我姐姐还在说，我不会说她们的名字，因为我们知道这些人还在，幸运的是，一些初中时特别受欢迎的女孩的名字，也许不是——

Maya Shankar: --You mean Kellen Lindsay?

玛雅·香卡：——你是说凯伦·林赛？

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, perhaps not kind to her, right, exactly.

安德鲁·休伯曼：是的，也许对她不太友善，对吧，确实如此。

Maya Shankar: Were they nice to me?

玛雅香卡：他们对我好吗？

Not super nice, but it's okay.

不是特别好，但是还可以。

Andrew Huberman: Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。

There's a lot of web searching nowadays for what these people are up to now anyway.

无论如何，现在有很多网络搜索这些人现在在做什么。

Not by me, anyway.

无论如何，不​​是我干的。

I have a sister.

我有一个妹妹。

We occasionally touch into this.

我们偶尔会触及这一点。

She's doing great.

她做得很好。

Fortunately, there's a salience to the negative experiences.

幸运的是，负面经历很突出。

But I think what I'm hearing, and I totally agree with, is that we'd like to think that we have complete or at least adequate self-knowledge, but that we likely don't.

但我认为我所听到的并且我完全同意的是，我们希望认为我们拥有完整的或至少足够的自我认识，但我们很可能没有。

What are some of the ways that we can get better data on ourselves in ways that can help us?

有哪些方法可以帮助我们更好地了解自己？

Is that through the application of mentorship?

是通过指导的应用吗？

Is it asking people for an honest assessment of us with, of course, the willingness to hear what they have to say?

是否要求人们对我们进行诚实的评估，当然，并愿意听取他们的意见？

What are some of the, I love zero-cost behavioral, but what are some of the zero-cost behavioral sources that people have around them in order to ask these, what I think are really fundamental questions.

我喜欢零成本行为，但人们为了提出这些我认为真正基本的问题，周围有哪些零成本行为来源。

Maya Shankar: Yeah.

玛雅·香卡：是的。

So there's two information asymmetries, let's say, that we're trying to solve for, so two areas where we might not have full knowledge of who we are for one of two reasons.

因此，我们正在努力解决两个信息不对称问题，因此，由于两个原因之一，我们可能无法完全了解我们是谁。

So, one is that we have an incomplete understanding of who we are just based on the random set of experiences.

因此，其中一个原因是，我们仅仅基于随机的经历，对自己是谁没有完全的了解。

And the second is that going through this big change actually alters us in some way.

第二，经历这个巨大的变化实际上在某种程度上改变了我们。

Okay, so if we're trying to solve for the...

好吧，如果我们想解决...

I think the second problem is actually easier to solve for in that we often just don't even know to look inwards during a big change to see how we've changed because we think, oh, I'll just pay attention to how I'm performing at work because that was the new variable that was thrown into my life.

我认为第二个问题实际上更容易解决，因为我们常常甚至不知道在重大变化期间向内看我们如何改变，因为我们认为，哦，我只会关注我在工作中的表现，因为这是我生活中的新变量。

And we forget to evaluate other parts of our lives.

我们忘记评估生活的其他部分。

Like, what impact has this had on my relationship?

比如，这对我的关系有什么影响？

What impact has this had on my overall well-being?

这对我的整体健康有什么影响？

Am I different?

我有什么不同吗？

Do I have a different set of preferences?

我有不同的偏好吗？

Do I care about different things?

我关心的事情不同吗？

So, in the second category, become very inquisitive about who you are over a longer time frame and assume that it's not a static state when it comes to the first bucket, which is how do we develop a more complete and richer understanding of self?

因此，在第二类中，在较长的时间范围内对自己是谁非常好奇，并假设在第一个桶中它不是静态的，这就是我们如何对自我形成更完整和更丰富的理解？

I think it's actually about surrounding yourself with a diverse set of people, people that you wouldn't naturally gravitate towards.

我认为这实际上是让你周围有各种各样的人，这些人是你不会自然而然地被吸引的。

I think this solves for a bunch of social ills, which is that, again, we tend to live in our silos, and we're really averse to talking to people who have different points of view.

我认为这解决了一系列社会弊病，那就是，我们往往生活在自己的孤岛中，我们真的不愿意与持不同观点的人交谈。

But I will tell you, at times I've learned the most about myself, I've learned the most about my weaknesses and sometimes my strengths from talking with someone that I vehemently disagree with.

但我会告诉你，有时，我通过与我强烈不同意的人交谈，最了解自己，最了解自己的弱点，有时也了解自己的优点。

And it's a really hard thing to do.

这确实是一件很难做到的事情。

It's very painful.

这是非常痛苦的。

But in terms of edifying experiences go, it's through those conversations that I almost see this mirror reflected back on me.

但就启发性经历而言，正是通过这些对话，我几乎看到了这面镜子反射到我身上。

Like, wow, I'm much more aware of how I'm coming across to that person because they disagree with me about something or they're not someone I would normally fraternize with.

就像，哇，我更清楚我给那个人的印象是怎样的，因为他们在某些事情上与我意见不同，或者他们不是我通常会友好相处的人。

And it's just bred more self-awareness in me.

它只是在我身上培养了更多的自我意识。

And so I would encourage people to actually seek out connections in uncomfortable spaces because that will allow you to fill in at least some of the gaps.

因此，我鼓励人们在不舒服的空间中真正寻找联系，因为这至少可以让你填补一些空白。

Now, some of the gaps will truly only be revealed to you because of life experiences.

现在，有些差距确实只会因为生活经历而显露出来。

So, I'm thinking in my own life, I thought I grieved in a very particular kind of way.

所以，我在想，在我自己的生活中，我认为我以一种非常特殊的方式感到悲伤。

And then during COVID my husband and I experienced multiple pregnancy losses with our surrogate, and I found myself grieving in a way that was completely foreign to me.

然后在新冠疫情期间，我和丈夫与我们的代孕妈妈经历了多次流产，我发现自己以一种对我来说完全陌生的方式悲伤。

I don't think talking to anyone would have revealed to me that I was going to grieve in this way, where usually I would reach out to people and I would want to stay connected.

我认为与任何人交谈不会让我知道我会以这种方式感到悲伤，通常我会与人们接触并希望保持联系。

And I became so shut off and closed off, and I didn't want to talk to anyone for days after the losses.

我变得如此封闭和封闭，在损失发生后的几天里我不想和任何人说话。

I was so disoriented there.

我在那里迷失了方向。

I learned, oh, actually, you can respond in a diverse set of ways to grief.

我了解到，哦，实际上，你可以用多种方式来应对悲伤。

You don't have a singular experience with grief, but I might have only learned that from the actual experience of confronting it.

你并没有独特的悲伤经历，但我可能只是从面对悲伤的实际经历中了解到这一点。

That said, I do think there's a lot of value in trying to fill in gaps in knowledge or self-awareness through these more quotidian conversations you have with people.

也就是说，我确实认为通过与人们进行的这些更日常的对话来尝试填补知识或自我意识的空白是很有价值的。

Andrew Huberman: I love, love, love what you said about deliberately placing oneself into environments where we receive critical feedback from people that we view as quite disparate from us, at least in terms of our experience of them.

安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman）：我非常非常非常喜欢你所说的关于故意将自己置身于这样的环境中，在这些环境中，我们会收到来自我们认为与我们完全不同的人的批评反馈，至少就我们对他们的经历而言。

It was the great Karl Deisseroth, another incredibly accomplished neuroscientist, happens to be a colleague of mine at Stanford who, he's a psychiatrist, and he said, you know, we think we know how other people feel, but we really have no idea how other people feel unless we ask them.

这是伟大的卡尔·戴瑟罗斯（Karl Deisseroth），另一位非常有成就的神经科学家，恰好是我在斯坦福大学的同事，他是一名精神病学家，他说，你知道，我们认为我们知道其他人的感受，但我们真的不知道其他人的感受，除非我们问他们。

In fact, most of the time we don't even really know how we feel.

事实上，大多数时候我们甚至不知道自己的感受如何。

We're not very good at gauging our own emotions.

我们不太善于衡量自己的情绪。

So credit to Karl for making that statement.

因此，感谢卡尔做出了这样的声明。

But with that said, I think getting a sense of how other people see us, and disagreement in particular, can be incredibly informative.

但话虽如此，我认为了解其他人如何看待我们，尤其是分歧，可以提供非常丰富的信息。

Maya Shankar: I just want to say one other point on this, which is I think getting feedback from others almost gets a bad rap these days in society, because it's like you should only care about who you are inside, who you know yourself to be.

玛雅·香卡：对此我只想说另一点，那就是我认为从别人那里获得反馈在当今社会几乎会受到不好的批评，因为这就像你应该只关心你的内心是谁，你知道自己是谁。

And I'm like, dude, we are social creatures.

我想，伙计，我们是社会生物。

It absolutely matters how I come off to others.

我给别人留下的印象绝对很重要。

I think that should be a huge part of my self-identity, should be how I impact others.

我认为这应该是我自我认同的重要组成部分，应该是我影响他人的方式。

And I think we should be shameless about integrating that into our understanding of self.

我认为我们应该无耻地将其融入我们对自我的理解中。

If I feel like I'm an excellent person inside and I'm regularly wounding the people around me, that matters, that's relevant to how I see myself.

如果我觉得自己内心是一个优秀的人，但我经常伤害周围的人，那很重要，这与我如何看待自己有关。

And so I do worry sometimes with the current cultural climate that we're pushing ourselves so much towards the space of, like, all that matters is authenticity and being yourself.

因此，有时我确实担心当前的文化氛围，我们将自己推向这样的空间：最重要的是真实性和做你自己。

First of all, sometimes yourself isn't awesome.

首先，有时候你自己并不出色。

You might want to actually optimize or change some things about yourself to be better.

您可能想要真正优化或改变自己的一些事情，以变得更好。

I think that's a good thing.

我认为这是一件好事。

And then, second, it's okay to care what other people think.

其次，关心别人的想法是可以的。

Usually they're great barometers of things that you might not be aware of in terms of the impact you're having.

通常，它们是您可能没有意识到的影响力的重要晴雨表。

So I just want to be a lobbyist for caring what other people think, just for a moment.

所以我只想成为一个关心别人想法的说客，只是暂时的。

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, I agree.

安德鲁·休伯曼：是的，我同意。

This is one of the reasons why I say at the end of every episode that I do read all the comments on YouTube.

这就是为什么我在每一集的结尾都会说我确实阅读了 YouTube 上的所有评论的原因之一。

Maya Shankar: Me too!

玛雅香卡：我也是！

Andrew Huberman: I think I was raised in a culture, an academic culture, where feedback on lectures, student feedback, was critical.

安德鲁·胡伯曼：我认为我是在一种文化、一种学术文化中长大的，在这种文化中，讲座的反馈、学生的反馈是至关重要的。

I mean, it is important, I believe, to be a selective filter, because in the old days, we'll say, there was an opportunity to map the statements to the grade that the student received, you can no longer do this.

我的意思是，我认为，成为一个选择性过滤器很重要，因为在过去，我们会说，有机会将陈述映射到学生收到的成绩，但你不能再这样做了。

So you would often see that some of the worst feedback was, "hated, unclear."

所以你经常会看到一些最糟糕的反馈是“讨厌的、不清楚的”。

Maya Shankar: Exactly.

玛雅·香卡：没错。

Andrew Huberman: And then you'd look at their grade, and you'd say, well, okay, this helps explain, and yet it was also important to understand where that could have represented some failings on my part.

安德鲁·休伯曼：然后你会看看他们的成绩，你会说，好吧，这有助于解释，但了解这可能代表我的一些失败也很重要。

And a classroom is but one environment.

教室只是一个环境。

I think the online environment is where this gets tricky because of the way that we all differ in our capacity to receive critical feedback.

我认为在线环境是这个问题变得棘手的地方，因为我们接收关键反馈的能力各不相同。

And sometimes the harshness of one form of feedback sends people feeling back on their heels or feeling even ego or emotionally injured in ways that they actually feel traumatic.

有时，一种形式的反馈的严厉性会让人们感觉自己落后了，甚至感到自我或情感上受到伤害，以至于他们实际上感到受到了创伤。

And I think that's part of the problem, is that we don't really have a way to gauge, I mean, we know inappropriate when we see it, we know appropriate when we see it.

我认为这就是问题的一部分，我们真的没有办法衡量，我的意思是，当我们看到它时，我们知道不合适，当我们看到它时，我们知道合适。

But all the stuff in between, because it's on a continuum, really is where it gets tricky.

但介于两者之间的所有内容，因为它是连续的，所以确实是棘手的地方。

I certainly think integrating the possibility that somebody might be right, what is it that they say in certain forms of personal developments, like, if somebody's coming at you with an argument about you, the best state of mind you could have is you might be right, because that lets you hold your ground a bit.

我当然认为整合某人可能是对的可能性，他们在某些形式的个人发展中说了什么，比如，如果有人向你提出关于你的争论，你可能拥有的最好的心态是你可能是对的，因为这可以让你坚持自己的立场。

It still maintains a boundary, but you're not saying you're right, and you're not saying you're wrong.

它仍然保持着一个边界，但你并没有说你是对的，也不是说你是错的。

You're in a kind of a flat-footed stance where you could move either way.

你处于一种措手不及的姿势，你可以向任何方向移动。

And I like that.

我喜欢这样。

This idea of, well, they might be right, and then you could say no or yes.

这个想法，嗯，他们可能是对的，然后你可以说“不”或“是”。

But in any case, I just want to throw up both hands and as many votes as I can, as one individual, to say yes, I totally agree.

但无论如何，我只是想作为一个人举起双手，投出尽可能多的选票，说是的，我完全同意。

More direct feedback and disagreement is great.

更直接的反馈和分歧是很好的。

Maya Shankar: Yeah.

玛雅·香卡：是的。

Andrew Huberman: It's wonderful.

安德鲁·休伯曼：太棒了。

And I think in science, you're used to people saying harsh things about your work until they eventually say, okay, you can publish the paper.

我认为在科学领域，你习惯于人们对你的工作说严厉的话，直到他们最终说，好吧，你可以发表论文。

Maya Shankar: That is true.

玛雅·香卡：确实如此。

Andrew Huberman: I grew up in the culture of skateboarding, where nothing's good enough, and then occasionally something's good.

Andrew Huberman：我是在滑板文化中长大的，在这种文化中，一切都还不够好，但偶尔也会有一些好的东西。

And in the landscape of podcasting, I think the comment section is a great way to get feedback, and that's why I continue to encourage feedback.

在播客领域，我认为评论部分是获得反馈的好方法，这就是我继续鼓励反馈的原因。

It sounds like you do as well.

听起来你也这么认为。

Maya Shankar: Yeah, I think, every endeavor that I pursue, I try to approach with a lot of humility.

玛雅·香卡：是的，我认为，我追求的每一项努力，我都会尽量保持谦逊。

And I think if I were to describe, at work, right, I lead this team, and I think if you were to ask people what my defining trait is as a leader, it's actually not, like, strong convictions.

我想，如果我要描述，在工作中，对吧，我领导这个团队，我想，如果你问人们我作为领导者的定义特征是什么，它实际上并不是坚定的信念。

It's actually a willingness to update her opinions on things, her belief systems, her strategy based on incoming information.

这实际上是一种愿意根据收到的信息更新她对事物的看法、她的信仰体系和她的策略。

I really, really pride myself on having a flexible mindset about stuff and not being stubborn.

我真的非常为自己拥有灵活的心态而不是固执而感到自豪。

This is true in my marriage.

在我的婚姻中也是如此。

Like, my husband Jimmy and I really pride ourselves, you know, saying, you know what?

就像，我的丈夫吉米和我真的为自己感到自豪，你知道，说，你知道吗？

Based on what you just shared, I'm changing my mind.

根据你刚才分享的内容，我正在改变主意。

Like, you're right and I'm wrong.

就像，你是对的，我是错的。

And if you can actually start to value that, if you could start to see that as a virtuous quality.

如果你能真正开始重视这一点，如果你能开始将其视为一种美德。

I think historically, when we think about leadership, we've thought about people who are incredibly resolute in their convictions, but that doesn't allow the space to, again, beige an update.

我认为从历史上看，当我们想到领导力时，我们想到的是那些对自己的信念极其坚定的人，但这不允许空间再一次成为米黄色的更新。

Update your mindset when you get new information or you realize that you erred in some way in terms of the logic that you used or what have you.

当您获得新信息或意识到自己在使用或拥有的逻辑方面犯了某些错误时，请更新您的心态。

And I've been extremely intentional in every sphere that I've worked in to have this very open mind and to be very open to critical feedback.

在我工作过的每一个领域，我都非常刻意地保持开放的心态，并对批评性的反馈持开放的态度。

It does not mean that I take every piece of feedback.

这并不意味着我会接受每一条反馈。

Okay, obviously I have some criteria I use to decide whether it's meaningful feedback or it's not meaningful feedback.

好吧，显然我有一些标准来决定它是有意义的反馈还是无意义的反馈。

But the locus of my pride is not in being right or having the strong conviction.

但我的骄傲并不在于自己是正确的或拥有坚定的信念。

It is actually in my willingness to have a more dynamic state of mind regarding lots of issues.

事实上，我愿意在很多问题上保持一种更有活力的心态。

Maybe that's just what it means to be a scientist, right?

也许这就是成为一名科学家的意义，对吧？

Like, you have to be willing to update in the face of new information.

就像，你必须愿意面对新信息进行更新。

Andrew Huberman: I am nodding, for those that are listening.

Andrew Huberman：对于那些正在倾听的人，我正在点头。

I'm just nodding and thinking yes and more yes.

我只是点头并想“是的”，“是的”，更多的是“是的”。

Because I think that we all need more of that as individuals.

因为我认为作为个人我们都需要更多这样的东西。

And if we can't get it from our work setting or group setting, sometimes asking a friend can be extremely useful.

如果我们无法从工作环境或团队环境中获得信息，有时询问朋友可能会非常有用。

I have a friend.

我有一个朋友。

He happens to be a professor at a university back east.

他恰好是东部一所大学的教授。

I won't embarrass him by disclosing where he's at, but I recall as a junior faculty member because he knows me well.

我不会因为透露他的处境而让他难堪，但我记得当时还是一名初级教员，因为他很了解我。

He's a few years behind me in our career trajectories.

在我们的职业轨迹上，他比我晚了几年。

But asking him for an honest assessment, I asked for the most brutally honest assessment of me that he could give, and some of it stung.

但当我要求他做出诚实的评估时，我要求他对我做出最残酷、最诚实的评估，其中一些让我很刺痛。

Some of it stung.

有些是刺痛的。

He was relating some ways in which I show up as a friend and I'm super present.

他讲述了我以朋友的身份出现并且表现得非常出色的一些方式。

Then I have this tendency, I'm pretty introverted, I'll disappear for long periods of time.

那么我就有这个倾向，我很内向，我会消失很长一段时间。

In college, they called me Dart because I'd show up at parties.

在大学里，他们叫我达特，因为我会出现在聚会上。

I'd be there, and then I would disappear for like two weeks and just be in my books, say hi to people and just keep going sort of in and out of connection.

我会在那里，然后我会消失大约两周的时间，只是埋头于我的书本中，向人们打个招呼，然后继续保持某种联系。

I've worked hard to change that over the years.

多年来我一直在努力改变这一点。

I think I have.

我想我有。

But who knows?

但谁知道呢？

In any event, a friend who knows us well that you insist on, all right, don't give me any compliments.

无论如何，你坚持的一个了解我们的朋友，好吧，不要给我任何赞美。

Just give me the harsh stuff, that can be very useful.

只要给我一些严厉的东西，那会非常有用。

Maya Shankar: And that reminds me of some research by Ethan Kross.

Maya Shankar：这让我想起了 Ethan Kross 的一些研究。

So he looks at how we can tame our mental chatter.

所以他着眼于我们如何驯服我们的心理喋喋不休。

And if you don't have the friend available to you, there is a really easy distancing technique that you can use when you're in the throes of a problem where you are trying to actively reframe something or maybe see where your blind spots are.

如果你没有朋友可以帮助你，那么当你遇到问题时，你可以使用一种非常简单的疏远技巧，当你试图积极地重新构建某些东西或者看看你的盲点在哪里时，你可以使用它。

And that's by thinking about your problem from a third-person perspective versus a first-person perspective.

那就是从第三人称视角而不是第一人称视角来思考你的问题。

So you play the role of someone who's giving advice to a friend in your head, but that friend is actually you, and it actually promotes some degree of objectivity and emotional distance from, again, that fuzzy, hazy set of feelings that you have around the emotion.

因此，你扮演的角色是在你的脑海中向朋友提供建议的人，但那个朋友实际上就是你，它实际上促进了某种程度的客观性和情感距离，再次，与你围绕情感产生的那种模糊的感觉。

You're trying to get rid of that piece so that you can bring a slightly more sober recommendation to the situation.

你正试图摆脱那部分，以便你可以针对这种情况提出稍微更清醒的建议。

So that can be really helpful.

这真的很有帮助。

And then the other thing to do is, I think, when we're facing challenges, when we're going through a hard time, we do have an instinct to want to vent, right?

然后另一件事是，我认为，当我们面临挑战时，当我们经历困难时，我们确实有一种本能想要发泄，对吧？

Again, in this era of vulnerability and whatnot, we're told, like, yes, share everything that's on your mind.

同样，在这个脆弱的时代，我们被告知，是的，分享你想到的一切。

It can actually be counterproductive to vent.

发泄实际上可能会适得其反。

And the reason for that is that when you're venting about a hard situation that you're going through, or something that you're frustrated about with yourself, typically the person you've invited into the conversation, they're a nice, empathetic person.

原因是，当你发泄自己正在经历的艰难处境，或者对自己感到沮丧的事情时，通常是你邀请参与谈话的人，他们是一个友善、富有同理心的人。

They want to make you feel better.

他们想让你感觉更好。

And so what do they do?

那么他们做什么呢？

They offer emotional balm in the situation.

他们在这种情况下提供情感安慰。

They're like, oh my God, that does sound terrible, you were so wronged.

他们就像，天哪，这听起来确实很糟糕，你太冤枉了。

I'm so sorry you went through that, instead of playing the role of what Ethan calls like a cognitive advisor, which is actively trying to challenge the narrative you're telling about your situation, actively trying to get you to question whether the way you're portraying the situation is accurate, and actively trying to get you to reframe aspects of the situation.

我很抱歉你经历了这一切，而不是扮演伊森所说的认知顾问的角色，即积极尝试挑战你所讲述的关于你的情况的叙述，积极地试图让你质疑你描述情况的方式是否准确，并积极地试图让你重新构建情况的各个方面。

And so when we think about venting, when it comes to, again, filling in those blind spots about ourselves, you might want to tell your friend at the outset, like, you even said, lay off the nice stuff.

因此，当我们考虑发泄时，当再次涉及到填补我们自己的盲点时，您可能想从一开始就告诉您的朋友，就像您甚至说的那样，放弃好东西。

I just want to hear the hard stuff you want to tell your friend at the beginning.

我只是想听听你一开始想告诉你朋友的艰难的事情。

Look, I'm having this challenge with my colleague at work, where this guy at the gym is giving me a really tough time.

听着，我在工作中和我的同事面临着这个挑战，健身房里的这个家伙让我度过了一段非常艰难的时光。

I don't know what's going on.

我不知道发生了什么事。

Here's the situation.

情况是这样的。

Rather than trying to make me feel better about the situation, I want you to actively find holes, poke holes in the way that I'm thinking about this thing so that I can try and find some reframing strategies to see the situation from a different vantage point.

我希望你不要试图让我对这种情况感觉更好，而是积极地寻找漏洞，在我思考这件事的方式中找出漏洞，以便我可以尝试找到一些重构策略，从不同的角度看待情况。

So these are all called distancing techniques.

所以这些都被称为距离技巧。

Third person versus first person.

第三人称与第一人称。

And actually, there's some really interesting neuroscience research showing that when we view our problems in ourselves from a third-person perspective, neural activity in areas associated with hostility and aggression actually decrease.

事实上，一些非常有趣的神经科学研究表明，当我们从第三人称的角度看待自己的问题时，与敌意和攻击性相关的区域的神经活动实际上会减少。

And so that can be really helpful when it comes to resolving interpersonal conflict or trying to see where you might have been wrong.

因此，当涉及到解决人际冲突或试图找出自己可能错在哪里时，这确实很有帮助。

Andrew Huberman: I love these examples because especially the one where one does it on their own, it truly doesn't require anything.

Andrew Huberman：我喜欢这些例子，因为尤其是那些人们自己做的例子，它确实不需要任何东西。

Maya Shankar: You can be the introverted Andrew and still do this.

Maya Shankar：你可以成为内向的安德鲁，但仍然这样做。

You don't even have to go to the party and then ghost everyone.

你甚至不必去参加聚会然后把所有人都搞鬼。

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, well, back then, there were no cell phones, or smartphones, rather.

安德鲁·休伯曼：是的，当时还没有手机或智能手机。

But, yeah, it was a bit of ghosting.

但是，是的，这有点鬼魂。

I can reset with small numbers of people that I'm close to, but I found at that time a need to go into an isolated space to do what I need to do to reset myself.

我可以与少数亲近的人一起重置，但当时我发现需要进入一个孤立的空间，做一些我需要做的事情来重置自己。

But I realized there are certain forms of communication that are still required.

但我意识到仍然需要某些形式的沟通。

Like, I'm alive.

就像，我还活着。

I still get this from my mother every once in a while.

我仍然时不时地从我母亲那里得到这个。

She's like, if you don't reach out, not only do I not know what's happening with you, but I also don't know if you're okay.

她就像，如果你不联系我，我不仅不知道你发生了什么事，而且我也不知道你是否还好。

And I'm thinking, I'm a grown man.

我在想，我是一个成年人了。

Of course I'm fine.

我当然很好。

And then I, of course, use the worst possible response that any son or child could give, which is, listen, if something happened to me, someone like the police would contact you--

当然，我会用任何儿子或孩子都能给出的最糟糕的回应，那就是，听着，如果我出了什么事，像警察这样的人会联系你——

Maya Shankar: They'll let you know.

Maya Shankar：他们会让你知道的。

Andrew Huberman: --or the hospital would contact you, which is not reassuring.

Andrew Huberman：——或者医院会联系你，这并不令人放心。

So, kids everywhere, call your parents.

所以，世界各地的孩子们，给你们的父母打电话吧。

Maya Shankar: I know.

玛雅·香卡：我知道。

Just call your poor mother, Andrew.

就打电话给你可怜的母亲安德鲁吧。

Just call her a bit more, come on.

多给她打个电话吧，来吧。

Andrew Huberman: I know, I know.

安德鲁·休伯曼：我知道，我知道。

Well, still working on it.

嗯，还在努力。

It is a work in progress.

这是一项正在进行的工作。

Venting.

通风。

I'm so glad that you brought this up.

我很高兴你提出这个问题。

I think that there are these buzzwords now, authenticity, I do think that there are certain forms of communication that can be injurious to people, and yet I think having some internal buffers to all that incoming stuff is important.

我认为现在有这些流行词，真实性，我确实认为某些形式的沟通可能会对人们造成伤害，但我认为对所有传入的内容有一些内部缓冲区很重要。

I mean, you can't be online, and I think everyone is pretty much online these days, without having some policies for oneself and how you're going to deal with this stuff.

我的意思是，你无法上网，而且我认为现在每个人都几乎都上网，但没有为自己制定一些政策以及如何处理这些事情。

How am I going to be a selective filter?

我如何成为选择性过滤器？

I think knowing the ends of the continuum — like this is clearly benevolent, kind, discourse, this is clearly bad.

我认为知道连续体的终点——像这样显然是仁慈的、善良的、话语的，这显然是不好的。

I'm going to block this or get rid of it, but then within that middle range, having some rules and policies for how to filter it, either by time of day that you look at it or getting input.

我将阻止它或摆脱它，但然后在中间范围内，制定一些规则和策略来过滤它，无论是按一天中您查看它的时间还是获取输入的时间。

But considering it might be true, it might not be true what people are saying.

但考虑到这可能是真的，人们所说的可能并不真实。

Maya Shankar: And like you said, you were talking about memory and how we tend to overweight negative experiences.

玛雅·香卡：就像你说的，你在谈论记忆以及我们如何倾向于过度重视负面经历。

And I did find myself like, so I gave this speech and it was posted, and I was looking at the comments, and anytime I brain-coded a comment as positive, I just skipped right past it.

我确实发现自己喜欢，所以我发表了这篇演讲并将其发布，我正在查看评论，每当我将评论编码为积极的时候，我就会直接跳过它。

I was literally just searching for the negative stuff.

我实际上只是在寻找负面的东西。

Andrew Huberman: As if the positive is generic and the negative is somehow genuine.

安德鲁·休伯曼：就好像积极的一面是普遍的，消极的一面在某种程度上是真实的。

Maya Shankar: Yes.

玛雅·香卡：是的。

And I had to make it mental, I had to make a mental note.

我必须把它记在心里，我必须在心里记下来。

Hey, it's okay to marinate in the messages that are saying that this really helped them in some way and they really enjoyed the thing.

嘿，可以沉浸在这样的消息中，这些消息说这确实在某种程度上帮助了他们，而且他们真的很喜欢这件事。

Again, for self-critical people, I think it takes an extra step to remind yourself to also read the good stuff and to allow that stuff to count, too.

再说一次，对于自我批评的人来说，我认为需要采取额外的步骤来提醒自己也阅读好东西，并让这些东西也有价值。

Andrew Huberman: Well, we did an episode on gratitude, and one of the big surprises that came to me in researching for that episode was that the best evidence for gratitude having positive effects on neural circuitry, neurochemistry, comes from when we receive gratitude as opposed to giving gratitude.

安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯，我们做了一集关于感恩的节目，在研究这一集时给我带来的最大惊喜之一是，感恩对神经回路、神经化学产生积极影响的最佳证据来自于我们接受感恩而不是给予感恩。

This is what's often lost in the discussion about gratitude.

这是在关于感恩的讨论中经常被忽视的一点。

So all the more incentive to give gratitude and to be aware of when it's coming your way and internalize it.

因此，你更有动力表达感激之情，并意识到它何时降临并将其内化。

There is a small category of people out there, I think, hopefully small, that so bask in positive feedback that it amplifies their narcissism.

我认为，有一小部分人，希望是少数，他们如此享受积极的反馈，从而放大了他们的自恋。

But it's clear that you are not one of those people.

但很明显，你不是那些人中的一员。

So zero minus one risk of that happening.

所以发生这种情况的风险为零减一。

I want to talk a little bit about goals as it relates to motivation, because you've done a lot of important work.

我想谈谈目标，因为它与动机有关，因为你已经做了很多重要的工作。

And what I consider is organization of this, what would otherwise be a pretty complex space.

我所考虑的是对其进行组织，否则这将是一个相当复杂的空间。

What is more important to most people than being motivated and focused and excited, hopefully on endeavors that they enjoy and that inspire delight.

对大多数人来说，有什么比充满动力、专注和兴奋更重要，希望他们能从事自己喜欢的、能激发快乐的努力。

But tell us about what can not just initiate, but what can sustain motivation, because we've talked about the dopamine system on this podcast many times before, but that's a pretty reductionist way to look at it.

但告诉我们什么不仅可以启动，而且可以维持动力，因为我们之前已经在这个播客上多次讨论过多巴胺系统，但这是一种相当简化的看待它的方式。

And you have a different perspective that I've really benefited from learning a bit about.

你有不同的观点，我从学习中受益匪浅。

Maya Shankar: Yeah.

玛雅·香卡：是的。

So when it comes to goals, I mean, it's first important to recognize that there's two parts of a goal.

因此，当谈到目标时，我的意思是，首先重要的是要认识到目标有两个部分。

So there's the way that we define the goal, and then there's the way that we pursue the goal.

因此，这是我们定义目标的方式，然后是我们追求目标的方式。

And I think we tend to overlook the first category, how we define the goal, because oftentimes our goals seem like they should be so obvious to us, right?

我认为我们往往会忽视第一类，即我们如何定义目标，因为通常我们的目标对我们来说应该是显而易见的，对吧？

I want to lose weight.

我想减肥。

I want to avoid sleeping late so that I get a good night's sleep.

我想避免睡得太晚，这样我就能睡个好觉。

I want to build muscle mass.

我想增强肌肉质量。

Right?

正确的？

Like these are things that just seem like they should just be intuitive, right?

这些东西看起来应该是直观的，对吧？

But what research and behavioral science shows is that not all goal frames are made equal.

但研究和行为科学研究表明，并非所有目标框架都是平等的。

In fact, really small tweaks to the way that we frame our goals can have an outsized impact on whether or not we're successful at reaching that goal.

事实上，对我们制定目标的方式进行很小的调整就会对我们是否成功实现该目标产生巨大的影响。

So one such framing is whether you frame your goals in terms of an approach orientation or an avoidance orientation.

因此，这样的框架之一就是你是否根据接近取向或回避取向来制定你的目标。

Let me talk about what this means.

我来说说这意味着什么。

So an approach orientation would be, I want to eat healthier foods.

所以一个方法是，我想吃更健康的食物。

Avoidance would be, I want to avoid unhealthy foods.

避免就是，我想避免不健康的食物。

So in the context of, say, your social life, approach would be, I want to be in a relationship, I want to enter a relationship.

因此，在你的社交生活中，方法是，我想建立一段关系，我想进入一段关系。

Avoidance would be, I want to avoid feeling loneliness.

回避就是，我想避免感到孤独。

I want to avoid feeling isolated.

我想避免感到孤立。

Now the reason why these two frames are important to consider is that they can have a different impact on our motivational states, and they can also have a different impact on the emotional response that we have to success and failure in these domains.

现在考虑这两个框架很重要的原因是它们可以对我们的动机状态产生不同的影响，并且它们也可以对我们在这些领域的成功和失败的情绪反应产生不同的影响。

So what we tend to find is that when you frame something in an approach orientation way, when you succeed, that success is met with feelings of pride and accomplishment.

所以我们倾向于发现，当你以方法为导向的方式构建某件事时，当你成功时，成功就会带来自豪感和成就感。

We find that it leads to a boost in motivation, it boosts endurance, it boosts perseverance.

我们发现它会增强动力，增强耐力，增强毅力。

When you frame something in terms of avoidance, success is met with feelings of calm and relief.

当你用回避的方式来描述某件事时，成功就会带来平静和解脱的感觉。

So kind of like a wipe the forehead.

有点像擦拭额头。

Like, thank goodness I avoided that calamitous outcome.

就像，谢天谢地，我避免了这种灾难性的结果。

Or thank goodness I avoided doing that really bad thing.

或者谢天谢地我避免了做那件非常糟糕的事情。

Andrew Huberman: Back to neutral?

安德鲁·休伯曼：回到中立？

Maya Shankar: Yeah, exactly.

玛雅·香卡：是的，完全正确。

And so it is fine to frame goals in terms of avoidance.

因此，从回避的角度来制定目标是很好的。

And actually, sometimes it's just personality dependent.

事实上，有时这只是取决于个性。

Like some people are more driven by fear or they need a lot more urgency to drive them.

就像有些人更受恐惧驱使，或者他们需要更多的紧迫感来驱使他们。

But it is important to know that the approach orientation is, on average, more motivating.

但重要的是要知道，平均而言，方法导向更具激励性。

And so you might want to think of reframing your goal in terms of approach versus avoidant.

因此，您可能需要考虑根据接近与回避来重新制定您的目标。

The other advantage to approach is that when you frame something as avoidant.

接近的另一个好处是，当你将某事视为回避型时。

I want to avoid doing X, I want to avoid doing Y.

我想避免做 X，我想避免做 Y。

It's really hard to measure success.

衡量成功确实很难。

It's like, are you really tracking every time you're tempted by the chocolate chip cookie and you don't actually eat it?

就像，你真的会记录每次你被巧克力曲奇诱惑但实际上并没有吃它的时候吗？

That's really hard to measure.

这确实很难衡量。

And we do better when we can measure success and failure.

当我们能够衡量成功和失败时，我们会做得更好。

It's much easier to track the number of times you approach a salad.

追踪您吃沙拉的次数要容易得多。

You approach something that's healthy.

你接近一些健康的东西。

And so, anyway, so it's really interesting to see how, again, this really subtle shift, and we see this across the board in behavioral science, can have such a big impact on behavior.

所以，无论如何，看到这种非常微妙的转变（我们在行为科学中全面看到这一点）如何对行为产生如此大的影响真的很有趣。

And on this framing thing, I'll just share one little anecdote from my time working in government.

关于这个框架，我将分享我在政府工作期间的一件小轶事。

So we were trying to motivate veterans to sign up for an employment and educational assistance program, so this is after their years of service.

因此，我们试图激励退伍军人报名参加就业和教育援助计划，所以这是在他们服役多年之后。

And this is a really important benefit that the government offers for free, because the transition from military to civilian life can be very fraught with a lot of psychological and physical obstacles.

这是政府免费提供的一项非常重要的福利，因为从军队生活到平民生活的过渡可能会充满许多心理和身体障碍。

And so I remember the Department of Veterans Affairs, they had almost no money to fund a marketing program around this.

所以我记得退伍军人事务部，他们几乎没有钱来资助围绕这个的营销计划。

They said, Maya and team, we've got one email that we're going to send to vets, and have at it.

他们说，玛雅和团队，我们收到了一封电子邮件，将发送给兽医，并已处理。

But that's all we're working with.

但这就是我们正在处理的一切。

And my teammates and I ended up changing just one word in this email message.

我和我的队友最终只更改了这封电子邮件中的一个词。

Instead of telling vets that they were eligible for the program, we simply reminded them that they had earned it through their years of service.

我们没有告诉退伍军人他们有资格参加该计划，而是只是提醒他们，他们是通过多年的服务赢得了这个计划。

And that one word change led to a 9% increase in access to the benefit.

这一词的改变导致获得该福利的人数增加了 9%。

And it's based on a psychological principle called the endowment effect, which says that we value things more when we own them, or in this case, have earned them.

它基于一种称为“禀赋效应”的心理学原理，即当我们拥有某物时，或者在本例中，是通过赢得它们时，我们会更加珍惜它们。

And so I shared this example only to say, like, that is such a small change, right?

所以我分享这个例子只是为了说，这是一个很小的改变，对吧？

But we just know that, again, these small little tweaks in the way that we talk to ourselves, the way that we frame our goals, can have a really big impact on our behavior.

但我们只知道，我们自言自语的方式、制定目标的方式的这些小调整，可能会对我们的行为产生很大的影响。

Andrew Huberman: I'm fascinated by that result.

Andrew Huberman：我对这个结果很着迷。

Some people hearing it might think, okay, 9%, is that really that great?

有些人听到这个可能会想，好吧，9%，真的有那么好吗？

But we're talking about a one-word change.

但我们谈论的是一个词的改变。

Maya Shankar: And the scale of the federal government.

玛雅·香卡：还有联邦政府的规模。

Andrew Huberman: Right.

安德鲁·休伯曼：对。

Big organizations.

大组织。

Hard to argue that things change quickly in big organizations.

很难说大型组织中的事情变化得很快。

Discussion for another time.

有时间再讨论。

But eligible versus earned.

但合格与赚取。

I mean, again, I come back to this possibility that there's something about words like "earned" that invoke a verb state within us that makes us more action oriented, similar to being able to see ourselves in some landscape that can evoke delight or awe, as opposed to just seeing the landscape that evokes delight or awe.

我的意思是，我再次回到这种可能性，像“赢得”这样的词会唤起我们内心的动词状态，使我们更加以行动为导向，类似于能够在某些可以唤起喜悦或敬畏的风景中看到自己，而不是仅仅看到唤起喜悦或敬畏的风景。

Yeah, I'm really hung up on this because I think one of the major challenges, it seems, for behavioral change is that most people do wait for the stick, as opposed to feeling into the carrot, so to speak.

是的，我真的对此很着迷，因为我认为行为改变的主要挑战之一似乎是大多数人确实在等待大棒，而不是感觉胡萝卜，可以这么说。

I mean, all you have to do is look at the enormous number of people who are struggling with health-related issues for which there's now a lot of active debate.

我的意思是，你所要做的就是看看有大量的人正在与健康相关的问题作斗争，这些问题现在有很多积极的争论。

Is it genetically determined?

是基因决定的吗？

And setting all that aside, it's just very clear that there are a number of behavioral things, sunlight, sleep, exercise, social connection, nutrition among them, that there's no pill for, there's no injection for, there is absolutely no replacement for.

抛开所有这些不谈，很明显的是，有很多行为因素，比如阳光、睡眠、锻炼、社会联系、营养等，没有药物可以解决，没有注射可以解决，绝对没有替代品。

So getting people to change their behavior is hard.

因此，让人们改变他们的行为是很困难的。

Telling people that they're capable sometimes helps, but doesn't seem sufficient.

告诉人们他们有能力有时会有所帮助，但似乎还不够。

So what are some more of these verb states that people you think can internalize that give them access to the real sense of possibility and get them changing their behavior?

那么，您认为人们可以内化哪些动词状态，从而让他们获得真正的可能性并让他们改变自己的行为呢？

Maya Shankar: Yeah, and behavior change is very hard.

Maya Shankar：是的，改变行为非常困难。

I sometimes bristle at some of the hacks that I see online because I'm like, I don't think there's a lot of evidence that supports that this works, so, you know, what I'm sharing today is actually backed by really high-quality research.

有时我会对网上看到的一些黑客行为感到愤怒，因为我认为没有很多证据支持这种做法，所以，你知道，我今天分享的内容实际上得到了真正高质量研究的支持。

One of my friends and mentors, Ayelet Fishbach, has done a lot of this work at the University of Chicago on goal setting and motivation.

我的一位朋友和导师阿耶莱特·菲什巴赫 (Ayelet Fishbach) 在芝加哥大学做了很多关于目标设定和激励的工作。

A couple other things for people to consider, and by the way, I love this space because I'm obsessed with goals, so I love getting better at things, and I'm using all of these insights in my own life, so it is truly a delight to get to share them.

还有其他一些事情需要人们考虑，顺便说一句，我喜欢这个空间，因为我痴迷于目标，所以我喜欢在事情上变得更好，而且我在自己的生活中使用了所有这些见解，所以分享它们真的很高兴。

Okay, sidebar.

好的，侧边栏。

Andrew Huberman: Important sidebar, I would argue, because you live this stuff, right?

Andrew Huberman：我认为重要的侧边栏，因为你生活在这些东西中，对吧？

You don't just research it, you live it.

你不只是研究它，你还生活它。

Maya Shankar: Yeah, it's totally "me-search," or whatever they call it.

Maya Shankar：是的，这完全是“自我搜索”，或者不管他们怎么称呼它。

So who sets the goal matters.

所以谁设定目标很重要。

So a lot of us work with coaches, trainers, mentors, bosses.

所以我们很多人都与教练、培训师、导师、老板一起工作。

That's great.

那太棒了。

It's really, really helpful for people in our lives to bring structure to our goals, to push us along, to motivate us.

对于我们生活中的人们来说，为我们的目标建立结构、推动我们前进、激励我们真的非常非常有帮助。

But when other people are setting our goals, setting our targets for us, it undermines a really valuable source of motivation, which is being in the driver's seat.

但是，当其他人为我们设定目标、为我们设定目标时，就会破坏真正宝贵的动力源泉，而这种动力源泉就是处于主导地位。

We love steering our lives.

我们喜欢掌控自己的生活。

We love feeling agency.

我们喜欢代理的感觉。

We love recruiting our own agency when it comes to achieving our goals.

在实现我们的目标时，我们喜欢招募自己的代理机构。

We talked about how people will go to irrational lengths to avoid feeling uncertainty.

我们讨论了人们如何不惜一切代价避免感到不确定。

People will also go to irrational lengths to preserve their agency and control over a situation.

人们也会不遗余力地维护自己的能动性和对局势的控制。

So there's some really interesting research that's come out just in the last few years showing that humans prefer to use their judgment over an algorithm that they know performs better than their judgment, but did not involve them, and they're much more satisfied with the outcomes when it's them that's in the driver's seat.

因此，最近几年出现的一些非常有趣的研究表明，人们更喜欢使用自己的判断，而不是他们知道比自己的判断表现更好的算法，但没有涉及他们，当他们坐在驾驶座上时，他们对结果更加满意。

And so what this means, I think, in everyday context, is not to do away with, like, trainers and coaches and whatnot.

因此，我认为，在日常环境中，这意味着并不是要取消培训师和教练之类的东西。

Every trainer and coach who's listening, don't hate me.

每一位正在听的培训师和教练都不要恨我。

Okay?

好的？

You're sticking around.

你还在坚持。

But what they can do is they can build something of a choice set into your day-to-day programming.

但他们可以做的是，他们可以将一些选择集构建到您的日常编程中。

So let's say that at work you have a certain skill that you're trying to build.

假设您在工作中拥有某种想要培养的技能。

Ask for a set of options to choose from.

询问一组可供选择的选项。

Own the targets more, you will see a boost in motivation.

拥有更多的目标，你会看到动力的增强。

Let's say you're working out with a trainer.

假设您正在与教练一起锻炼。

They're like, it's leg day, okay, I'm going to own some of my targets, right?

他们就像，今天是腿部训练日，好吧，我要拥有一些目标，对吧？

Are we going to go heavy, hard on deadlifts?

我们要进行大重量硬拉吗？

Are we going to go hard on squats?

我们要努力深蹲吗？

Whatever it is.

不管是什么。

And so build some agency into the experience, because nothing supplants that kind of intrinsic drive and the feeling that you own the success or the failure.

因此，在体验中建立一些代理，因为没有什么可以取代这种内在的动力和你拥有成功或失败的感觉。

Again, I think to your earlier point, what we're really trying to do with some of these behavioral insights is capitalize on our natural state as humans, right?

再说一次，我认为就你之前的观点而言，我们真正想要利用这些行为洞察力做的是利用我们作为人类的自然状态，对吗？

Like, what drives us.

就像，是什么驱使着我们。

And it turns out we really love being in control.

事实证明，我们真的很喜欢掌控一切。

Well, why don't we monopolize on that when it comes to our goal pursuit, right?

好吧，当谈到我们的目标追求时，我们为什么不垄断它，对吧？

So we're trying to figure out those areas of psychology that we can leverage.

所以我们试图找出我们可以利用的心理学领域。

Andrew Huberman: That's fantastic.

安德鲁·休伯曼：太棒了。

The word agency is so key here, I think.

我认为代理这个词在​​这里非常关键。

And it explains that earlier result, the shock experiment.

它解释了早期的结果，即冲击实验。

People having agency over their response to 100% of the time, at least it's giving them some sense of control and mitigating it.

人们在 100% 的时间里对自己的反应有自主权，至少这给了他们一些控制感并减轻了这种感觉。

Whereas when it's random, 50/50, rather, when it's random, 50% of the trials, then even though the outcome is better on the whole, it's perceived somehow as a reduction in agency.

然而，当它是随机的，50/50，更确切地说，当它是随机的，50%的试验时，即使结果总体上更好，但它在某种程度上被认为是机构的减少。

There's something fundamental there, for sure.

当然，这里面有一些基本的东西。

When I started my laboratory and there was an additional pressure to publish papers, this was before getting tenure, I used to ask students in postdocs when the paper would be ready, and then finally I stopped asking and just said, why don't you tell me when the deadline is?

当我开始我的实验室时，发表论文有额外的压力，这是在获得终身教职之前，我曾经问博士后的学生论文什么时候可以准备好，最后我不再问，只是说，你为什么不告诉我截止日期是什么时候？

And not a single one failed.

而且没有一个失败。

Or rather, I should put it in the positive light — every single time they succeeded in beating their estimate because they were in control of that endpoint.

或者更确切地说，我应该从积极的角度来看待——每次他们成功地超出了他们的估计，因为他们控制了那个终点。

Maya Shankar: Love that.

玛雅香卡：喜欢这个。

Andrew Huberman: So it was at times challenging for me, but they set a date.

安德鲁·胡伯曼：所以这有时对我来说是一个挑战，但他们设定了一个日期。

And also, by the way, if they need to extend that date outward, we did.

而且，顺便说一句，如果他们需要向外延长该日期，我们就这么做了。

That was their choice.

那是他们的选择。

They said they needed more time.

他们说他们需要更多时间。

The rule in science that I think applies a lot of places is, I always like the phrase "as fast as I carefully can." Because you don't want to rush.

我认为适用于很多地方的科学规则是，我总是喜欢“尽可能快”这句话。因为你不想着急。

Maya Shankar: Absolutely.

玛雅·香卡：当然。

Andrew Huberman: But that sense of agency, I like to think, translated to more joy for them.

安德鲁·休伯曼：但我认为，这种代理感可以为他们带来更多快乐。

Certainly there was a lot of productivity from them, and they might be listening to this.

当然，他们的生产力很高，而且他们可能正在倾听这一点。

And so they can put in the comments whether or not I'm telling the truth here.

所以无论我在这里说的是不是实话，他们都可以发表评论。

Maya Shankar: Andrew Huberman: Most of them are professors now.

Maya Shankar：Andrew Huberman：他们中的大多数现在都是教授。

Maya Shankar: Well, that probably means they succeeded.

玛雅香卡：嗯，这可能意味着他们成功了。

Andrew Huberman: They definitely succeeded.

安德鲁·休伯曼：他们绝对成功了。

The question is whether or not I had anything to do with it.

问题是我是否与这件事有关。

My advisors always said the best thing you could do is support your students in postdocs and then just get out of their way.

我的导师总是说，你能做的最好的事情就是支持你的博士后学生，然后别挡他们的路。

Because the really good ones, you can't control them.

因为真正好的人，你无法控制他们。

You're just trying to not screw things up for them.

你只是想不把事情搞砸。

Maya Shankar: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

玛雅香卡：是啊，是啊，是啊。

There's a lot of intrinsic motivation there.

那里有很多内在动机。

Andrew Huberman: I'm curious about the difference between lone pursuits and group pursuits, because I know you understand a lot about groups, and I want to make sure that we talk about groupthink, although that has such a negative connotation, but the way that we tend to kind of revert to the mean when it comes to our thinking and our opinions and certainly our explanations of who's right and who's wrong when we are in a collection of like-minded people.

安德鲁·休伯曼：我很好奇孤独追求和群体追求之间的区别，因为我知道你对群体了解很多，我想确保我们谈论群体思维，尽管它有如此负面的含义，但当我们在一群志同道合的人中时，当涉及到我们的思维和观点，当然还有我们对谁对谁错的解释时，我们往往会回归到中庸之道。

This could also be phrased as, what are the dangers of being among like-minded people?

这也可以说是，与志同道合的人在一起有什么危险？

And then we'll relate that back to motivation.

然后我们会将其与动机联系起来。

But what are the dangers of being among like-minded people?

但与志同道合的人在一起有什么危险呢？

Maya Shankar: Yeah, well, in the context of goals and motivation, it can be very, very helpful to be in the context of like-minded people.

玛雅·香卡：是的，就目标和动力而言，与志同道合的人在一起会非常非常有帮助。

And the reason for that is we often don't see failure up close when it comes to people pursuing their goals, but if we are in the presence of people whose values we share, who have a similar commitment to doing something, and we see up close that they sometimes have those days where they fail, or we have the vulnerability to show when we've failed, that can actually increase our resolve that the goals that we're trying to achieve are actually possible.

原因是，当人们追求目标时，我们通常不会近距离看到失败，但如果我们和那些我们有共同价值观、对做某事有相似承诺的人在一起，我们近距离地看到他们有时会失败，或者我们在失败时表现出脆弱性，这实际上可以增强我们的决心，让我们相信我们正在努力实现的目标实际上是可能的。

I think the danger of being in the like-minded spaces is around how it limits your frame of mind, so when it comes to the ideas that you have, when it comes to the convictions you have around your points of view, it can be very dangerous to only be in the echo chamber again, because I want to give people strategies to challenge their way of thinking without them having to socialize.

我认为处于志同道合的空间中的危险在于它如何限制你的思维框架，所以当涉及到你的想法时，当涉及到你对自己观点的信念时，仅仅再次处于回声室中可能是非常危险的，因为我想为人们提供策略来挑战他们的思维方式，而无需他们进行社交。

For all the introverts out there, I have a lot of compassion.

对于所有内向的人，我充满同情心。

I have introverted tendencies.

我有内向的倾向。

So I get it.

所以我明白了。

One helpful thought experiment you can use when you feel like maybe you're spending a little bit too much time around people who are just reinforcing whatever viewpoints you have is to ask how your belief system and your ideas and your opinions of things might have been different had you been born during a different time period and in a different family or cultural landscape, and what happens when it comes to our viewpoints is that they become so tethered to our identities that we feel like if we were to jettison a certain belief or value, we would be jettisoning ourselves, and that feels way too threatening.

当你觉得自己在那些只是强化你观点的人身上花费了太多时间时，你可以使用一个有用的思想实验，那就是问问，如果你出生在不同的时期、不同的家庭或文化环境中，你的信仰体系、你的想法和你对事物的看法可能会有所不同，而当涉及到我们的观点时，会发生什么，它们变得如此束缚于我们的身份，以至于我们觉得如果我们放弃某种信仰或价值观，我们就会被抛弃。抛弃我们自己，这感觉太有威胁了。

It's way too destabilizing to engage in that.

参与其中太不稳定了。

But the minute you imagine what it would have been like to have been born in a different family, with a different religious belief system, with a different value system, all of a sudden you transport your same self, right — I'm still Maya — into this new environment, and you start to see how nonprecious some of your beliefs are, right?

但当你想象出生在不同的家庭、不同的宗教信仰体系、不同的价值体系会是什么样子时，你突然将同样的自我，对吧——我仍然是玛雅——转移到这个新环境中，你开始发现你的一些信仰是多么不珍贵，对吧？

Maybe they don't have the sacred quality that you thought that they did.

也许他们并不具备你所认为的神圣品质。

And so you might be more open to changing your mind, more open and receptive to challenging your own points of view if you engage in that thought experiment.

因此，如果您参与思想实验，您可能会更愿意改变想法，更愿意挑战自己的观点。

Andrew Huberman: I recall you discussing a description of people watching a game of sport that involved bad calls.

安德鲁·胡伯曼：我记得您讨论过人们观看体育比赛时出现错误判罚的描述。

Maya Shankar: Yeah.

玛雅·香卡：是的。

Controversial referee calls.

有争议的裁判判罚。

Andrew Huberman: Controversial referee calls.

安德鲁·胡伯曼：有争议的裁判判罚。

Yeah.

是的。

If you could share with us a little bit about that result, because I find it really interesting, especially the part where the experimenters can swap the identities of the teams in theory, and then, well, basically what people come to realize is that our perception of the outside world is strongly informed by the group that we see ourselves in, and often to our own detriment.

如果你能与我们分享一下这个结果，因为我觉得它真的很有趣，特别是实验者可以在理论上交换团队身份的部分，然后，基本上，人们开始意识到，我们对外部世界的看法很大程度上受到我们所看到的自己所处的群体的影响，而且往往对我们自己不利。

Maya Shankar: Absolutely.

玛雅·香卡：当然。

Yeah.

是的。

So this is a study from the 1950s.

这是 20 世纪 50 年代的一项研究。

And to your point, we tend to think, okay, we're human beings.

就你的观点而言，我们倾向于认为，好吧，我们是人类。

We're really enlightened, we're making decisions, and we're engaging in judgments of things based on data and evidence and facts.

我们真的很开明，我们正在做出决定，我们正在根据数据、证据和事实对事物进行判断。

And surely my visual system wouldn't lie to me.

当然，我的视觉系统不会欺骗我。

So whatever I perceive is going to be true and a veridical representation of the world and, like, not true.

因此，无论我感知到什么，都将是真实的，是对世界的真实再现，但也不是真实的。

Okay, a lot of our beliefs, and these are strong beliefs.

好吧，我们有很多信念，这些都是坚定的信念。

I mean, again, they're what we believe to be fact about the world, is informed by our group membership.

我的意思是，它们是我们所相信的关于世界的事实，是由我们的团体成员所告知的。

So in this study, loyal fans of two opposing football teams watched these controversial plays, so, where the referee made a call, and they weren't quite certain if it was like, in or out, let's say.

因此，在这项研究中，两支敌对足球队的忠实球迷观看了这些有争议的比赛，因此，当裁判做出判罚时，他们不太确定是进还是出，比方说。

And depending on your loyalty to the team, to whatever sports team, whichever side you were on, you were much more likely to favor calls that were made on your team's, in your team's favor.

根据你对球队的忠诚度，对任何运动队的忠诚度，无论你站在哪一边，你更有可能支持对你的球队做出的、对你的球队有利的决定。

And when you ask people coming out of a study like this, it's not like, yes, I knew I was biased, like, I knew that I was basing my judgment of these referee calls based on my affiliation and my love of Team X or Team Y, you wouldn't think that.

当你问参加这样的研究的人时，他们不会说，是的，我知道我有偏见，就像，我知道我是根据我的隶属关系和我对 X 队或 Y 队的热爱来对这些裁判的判断做出判断的，你不会这么认为。

You'd think you were an arbiter of truth in this situation.

在这种情况下，你会认为自己是真理的仲裁者。

You're just recalling what your visual system saw.

你只是在回忆你的视觉系统所看到的东西。

And I think that shows how powerful these social forces are, how powerful our group affiliations are, because it can truly change the way that you see stuff.

我认为这表明这些社会力量有多么强大，我们的群体归属有多么强大，因为它可以真正改变你看待事物的方式。

Of course, it can then transform the way that you think about stuff.

当然，它可以改变你思考事物的方式。

And so that, to me, is a powerful reminder that when we are in disagreement with someone else and we just try to bombard them with facts, I mean, you're a scientist, so if you're hearing someone say something and you're like, oh, that's not accurate, that's not true.

所以，对我来说，这是一个强有力的提醒，当我们与别人意见不一致时，我们只是试图用事实轰炸他们，我的意思是，你是一名科学家，所以如果你听到有人说了什么，你会想，哦，那不准确，那不是真的。

Your instinct probably says, but have you heard about the 2017 study, the peer-reviewed journal article from PubMed?

你的直觉可能会说，但是你听说过 2017 年的研究吗？这篇来自 PubMed 的同行评审期刊文章？

But when you recognize that, actually a large part of our belief system emerges from the groups that we identify with, I think there's an inspiring lesson that comes from this.

但当你认识到这一点时，我们的信仰体系实际上很大一部分来自于我们所认同的群体，我认为这是一个鼓舞人心的教训。

So we shouldn't be too disheartened by the fact that this is true, but it helps round out our understanding of why it is that people believe the things they do.

因此，我们不应该因为这是事实而感到太沮丧，但它有助于我们更好地理解为什么人们相信他们所做的事情。

And as a result, we have more resources at hand to try to understand how we can change their minds.

因此，我们手头有更多资源来尝试了解如何改变他们的想法。

So, one of the guys that I interviewed on my podcast, his name is Daryl Davis.

我在播客上采访的其中一个人，他的名字叫达里尔·戴维斯。

He's a Black jazz musician, and he was confronted by a member of the Ku Klux Klan at one of his performances, and it led, talk about a slight change of plans, I mean, he just went on a totally different life path and ended up convincing dozens of people to leave white supremacy groups, including the Ku Klux Klan.

他是一名黑人爵士音乐家，在一次演出中他遇到了一名三K党成员，这导致了计划的轻微改变，我的意思是，他只是走了一条完全不同的人生道路，最终说服了数十人离开白人至上团体，包括三K党。

And when it comes to Daryl and his approach, well, one, he recruited people's agencies, so he never implied to them, oh, I'm trying to change your mind.

当谈到达里尔和他的方法时，嗯，一，他招募了人们的机构，所以他从来没有向他们暗示，哦，我正在努力改变你的想法。

He always says, like, I didn't convince them, Maya.

他总是说，比如，我没有说服他们，玛雅。

They convinced themselves to change their mind.

他们说服自己改变主意。

So he recruited their agency.

所以他聘请了他们的代理机构。

But he also tried his absolute hardest to not question their fundamental and underlying humanity.

但他也尽最大努力不去质疑他们的根本和潜在的人性。

So he tried to understand, why are you part of this group, this vile, vitriolic group?

所以他试图理解，为什么你会成为这个群体的一部分，这个卑鄙、刻薄的群体？

And some people would share, well, you know, it's a family tradition thing.

有些人会分享，嗯，你知道，这是一个家庭传统。

My father was in the Klan.

我父亲是三K党成员。

My grandfather's in the Klan.

我祖父是三K党成员。

Look, none of this excuses being in a hate group, okay?

听着，这些都不是加入仇恨团体的借口，好吗？

But at least it gave Daryl an understanding of some of the factors that were pushing them towards the group so that he might offer that sense of community, that sense of belonging somewhere else, maybe outside of a hate group.

但至少这让达里尔了解了促使他们走向该团体的一些因素，这样他就可以提供这种社区感，那种在其他地方（也许是在仇恨团体之外）的归属感。

But if he thought that he was actually just fighting over facts, over whether African Americans should be treated equal to everyone else, then he would have lost that argument, because he wasn't even fighting with the right currency.

但如果他认为自己实际上只是在为事实而战，为非洲裔美国人是否应该与其他人平等对待而争论，那么他就会输掉这场争论，因为他甚至没有在使用正确的货币进行斗争。

What was relevant?

什么是相关的？

It was the first episode of A Slight Change of Plans we ever released and continues to be my favorite.

这是我们发布的《计划的轻微改变》的第一集，并且仍然是我的最爱。

Because what was so thrilling about this interview is that the strategies Daryl used to convince people to change their minds again of these deeply entrenched, horrific views were totally corroborated by the science of how we change people's minds.

因为这次采访的令人兴奋之处在于，达里尔用来说服人们再次改变他们对这些根深蒂固的可怕观点的想法的策略完全得到了我们如何改变人们想法的科学的证实。

So he used a lot of really effective strategies, just intuitively, like, he's just a mastermind behavioral scientist just by virtue of who he is.

所以他使用了很多非常有效的策略，就凭直觉来说，他只是一个行为科学家的策划者，仅凭他的身份。

But he showed genuine curiosity for why it is they believed what they did, which is, again, extremely hard.

但他对他们为什么相信自己所做的事情表现出了真正的好奇，这又是极其困难的。

And I would not have had the equanimity to show genuine curiosity for why someone is in the Ku Klux Klan.

我不会平静地对某人为何加入三K党表示真正的好奇。

But he showed that curiosity.

但他表现出了好奇心。

He increased his question-to-statement ratio.

他增加了问题与陈述的比例。

So it's really important to ask people a lot of questions, and then he would ask people a really important question, which is, well, what, in theory, could change your mind?

因此，向人们提出很多问题非常重要，然后他会问人们一个非常重要的问题，那就是，理论上，什么可以改变你的想法？

Like, what evidence would I have to give you in order to change your mind about X, Y or Z?

例如，我必须向您提供什么证据才能改变您对 X、Y 或 Z 的看法？

And the reason that I love asking that question is that it presupposes that someone ought to be willing to change their mind in the face of new information.

我喜欢问这个问题的原因是它的前提是有人应该愿意在面对新信息时改变主意。

So this hearkens back to the conversation we were having earlier about the importance of having a malleable state of mind and being willing to update in the face of new info.

因此，这让我们回想起我们之前的对话，即拥有可塑性心态并愿意面对新信息进行更新的重要性。

Now, if the person in response says, literally nothing will change my mind, okay, well, then, you know it's not worth your time to have the disagreement with them.

现在，如果回应的人说，实际上没有什么会改变我的想法，好吧，那么，你知道不值得你花时间与他们产生分歧。

But if they give you a little bit and say, well, maybe I would change my mind on vaccines if you were to tell me X, Y or Z, maybe I would change my mind on immigration reform if you were to tell me this or that.

但如果他们给你一点信息并说，好吧，如果你告诉我 X、Y 或 Z，也许我会改变对疫苗的看法，如果你告诉我这个或那个，也许我会改变对移民改革的看法。

Now you have an in, right?

现在你已经进来了，对吧？

But you do need to get them into the state of mind where they think, yeah, I guess in theory, I could change my mind about this thing that I feel absolutely resolute about.

但你确实需要让他们进入一种心态，让他们认为，是的，我想从理论上讲，我可以改变我对这件事的看法，而我对此感到绝对坚决。

Andrew Huberman: I've never worked in public policy, but I feel very strongly that where I see failures en masse of public health policy or educational policy, almost always there seems to be a failure of even interest in understanding what motivates the other side's position.

安德鲁·胡伯曼：我从未从事过公共政策工作，但我强烈地感觉到，在我看到公共卫生政策或教育政策大量失败的地方，似乎总是没有兴趣理解对方立场的动机。

And this actually gets me frustrated to the point of being motivated, where it's like people are saying, you're wrong, you're wrong.

这实际上让我感到沮丧，以至于没有动力，就像人们在说，你错了，你错了。

Know this, know that to the point of it's almost maddening.

知道这一点，知道这一点几乎令人发疯。

And far more seldom do we see people saying, okay, I'm in a third person myself, or I'm going to put myself in the other person's shoes and say, why might they feel that way?

我们很少看到人们说，好吧，我自己就是第三人称，或者我会把自己放在别人的立场上说，为什么他们会有这样的感觉？

Why would this person be listening to this individual as opposed to this public health individual?

为什么这个人会听这个人的声音而不是这个公共卫生人员的声音？

And look, without taking any stance on this, because it's a much bigger conversation than we want to have right now, I could look at public health officials that just completely failed to understand the other side's position and vice versa.

看，在不对此采取任何立场的情况下，因为这是一个比我们现在想要进行的更大的对话，我可以看看公共卫生官员，他们完全无法理解对方的立场，反之亦然。

And that to me just says it's a communication failure.

对我来说这只是说明这是沟通失败。

And I'll take this out of the COVID pandemic discussion as it's normally had and say that one thing that we know for sure is that in the 2020 to, really, 2022, but still 2023 landscape, there were so many mental health concerns.

我将把这一点从通常进行的新冠大流行讨论中抽出来，并说我们可以肯定地知道的一件事是，在 2020 年到 2022 年，但仍然是 2023 年，存在如此多的心理健康问题。

Everybody, regardless of where people were on the vaccine debate, mass debate, lockdown debate, regardless of any of that, everyone's stress level was elevated.

每个人，无论人们在疫苗辩论、大规模辩论、封锁辩论中处于什么位置，无论其中任何一个，每个人的压力水平都升高了。

Maya Shankar: Absolutely.

玛雅·香卡：当然。

Andrew Huberman: And there were very, very few top-down from, at the level of government, discussions about how to maintain circadian rhythm and sleep health, how to maintain health in general in that landscape.

安德鲁·胡伯曼：在政府层面上，关于如何维持昼夜节律和睡眠健康、如何在该地区总体保持健康的讨论非常非​​常少。

And that, for me, was just really shocking.

对我来说，这真是令人震惊。

It was also one of the reasons why we launched the podcast, frankly, is that I really feel that the tools were needed by everybody and should be zero cost to everybody.

坦率地说，这也是我们推出播客的原因之一，我真的觉得每个人都需要这些工具，并且对每个人来说都应该是零成本。

But what was clear is there was so much pointing of fingers and name-calling and violence even, that no one was saying, like, why would people feel this way?

但显而易见的是，存在如此多的指责、谩骂和暴力，以至于没有人说，为什么人们会有这种感觉？

Why would people trust these sources as opposed to these sources?

为什么人们会相信这些来源而不是这些来源？

And we can only conclude if we're good scientists that the landscape was ineffective, right?

只有当我们是优秀的科学家时，我们才能得出结论，景观是无效的，对吗？

It was just ineffective.

只是没有效果。

And it continues.

它还在继续。

I mean, if you have the desire to take a reduction in dopamine by going on Twitter and following this back and forth that continues today, it's pretty ugly.

我的意思是，如果你想通过上推特并关注今天持续的这种来回运动来减少多巴胺，那是相当难看的。

Still, none of it seems really solution oriented.

尽管如此，这些似乎都不是真正面向解决方案的。

There are a few people out there who are trying to make it solution oriented, but not really.

有一些人试图使其以解决方案为导向，但实际上并非如此。

And so I don't want to go into the dark aspects here.

所以我不想在这里讨论黑暗的方面。

But it does seem like this willingness to take a look at why others might feel the opposite of how we feel is a very rare quality.

但这种愿意了解为什么别人的感受可能与我们的感受相反的意愿似乎是一种非常罕见的品质。

And this gentleman, Daryl, what was his last name?

这位先生，达里尔，他姓什么？

Maya Shankar: Daryl Davis.

玛雅·香卡：达里尔·戴维斯。

Andrew Huberman: I think I've seen a number of things with him.

Andrew Huberman：我想我和他一起看到了很多事情。

He's obviously extraordinary, but we call him that because people like him are exceedingly rare.

他显然很非凡，但我们这样称呼他是因为像他这样的人极其罕见。

So what can we do to cultivate that kind of mindset?

那么我们应该怎样做才能培养这种心态呢？

Because I'm not pointing fingers here, I mean, I think we all have this default tendency to gather evidence the way that we gather evidence, draw conclusions, and then stand our ground.

因为我并不是在这里指责，我的意思是，我认为我们都有这种默认倾向，以我们收集证据、得出结论、然后坚持自己立场的方式收集证据。

And I think it's detrimental to everyone.

我认为这对每个人都有害。

Maya Shankar: So you're making me reflect on probably the greatest gift that being a cognitive scientist has given me in my life.

玛雅·尚卡：所以你让我反思，作为一名认知科学家，这可能是我一生中最伟大的礼物。

Obviously, it's fed my curiosity, it's been a delight to study things and learn things, but the greatest gift it has given me is empathy towards people.

显然，它满足了我的好奇心，研究事物和学习事物是一种乐趣，但它给我的最大礼物是对人的同理心。

It is the greatest driver of human empathy to learn how our minds work.

了解我们的思维如何运作是人类同理心的最大驱动力。

And I don't know if there's a substitute for that.

而且我不知道是否有替代品。

Partly that's why I started A Slight Change of Plans.

这就是我开始“稍微改变计划”的部分原因。

We have story episodes where you hear from people like Daryl, but I interview scientists from all over the world about their areas of expertise.

我们有一些故事情节，你可以听到像达里尔这样的人的故事，但我采访了来自世界各地的科学家，了解他们的专业领域。

And I genuinely believe that the more we learn about how the mind works, the more we learn from my field of cognitive science about how we make decisions, how we develop our attitudes and beliefs about the world, how we come to be the people that we are, the more we can bridge these empathy gaps.

我真诚地相信，我们对大脑如何运作了解得越多，我们从认知科学领域学到的关于我们如何做出决定、如何发展我们对世界的态度和信念、我们如何成为现在的人的知识就越多，我们就越能弥合这些同理心差距。

And it's been profound for me.

这对我来说意义深远。

I mean, I feel so lucky to have been steeped in this literature for decades now.

我的意思是，几十年来我一直沉浸在这些文学作品中，我感到非常幸运。

But my hope is to invite people into the conversation, because the more you learn about why people are the way they are, the more empathy you can extend.

但我希望邀请人们参与对话，因为你越了解人们为什么会这样，你就越能表达出同理心。

And the more, I'm not even saying you need to extend an olive branch, I'm not saying that you need to compromise your own belief system, but at least you see that there might be an entry point, a reason to have a discussion with this person who believes things that are completely different from you.

而且，我什至不是说你需要伸出橄榄枝，我不是说你需要妥协自己的信仰体系，但至少你看到可能有一个切入点，一个与这个相信与你完全不同的事物的人进行讨论的理由。

And we talked about gratitude a bit.

我们聊了一点感恩。

In this conversation, I feel immense gratitude that I have a posture of empathy as I move around in this world, because I have strong beliefs on things.

在这次谈话中，我感到非常感激，因为我在这个世界上行走时有一种同理心的姿态，因为我对事物有坚定的信念。

I care a lot.

我很关心。

I care about reducing human suffering.

我关心减少人类痛苦。

And then I meet someone who I think is pro a policy that promotes human suffering.

然后我遇到了一个我认为支持加剧人类痛苦的政策的人。

And of course, the visceral human instinct is like, to hell with you and your viewpoint, this is horrible, this is intolerable.

当然，人类的本能就是，让你和你的观点见鬼去吧，这太可怕了，这是无法忍受的。

But because I have this cognitive science hat on.

但因为我戴着认知科学的帽子。

It allows me to walk around with a slightly different viewpoint, and I really feel that I'm a better person as a result of that.

它让我能够以稍微不同的观点四处走动，因此我真的觉得我是一个更好的人。

And I've heard from listeners of A Slight Change of Plans, when they listen to these science episodes, whether it's the science of loneliness, the science of empathy, the science of meditation — I try to bring this empathetic spin to understanding, again, neuroscience and psychology — they have found that they are kinder to others.

我从《计划的轻微改变》的听众那里听说，当他们听这些科学节目时，无论是孤独的科学、同理心的科学、冥想的科学——我再次试图将这种同理心的旋转带入理解神经科学和心理学——他们发现自己对他人更加友善。

And so that's probably the best feedback that I've ever received on the show, is like, people are like, I'm a nicer person to other people now, especially the ones I don't agree with.

所以这可能是我在节目中收到的最好的反馈，就像，人们就像，我现在对其他人更好了，尤其是那些我不同意的人。

Andrew Huberman: And presumably to themselves as well.

Andrew Huberman：想必对他们自己也是如此。

I know you've brought up the topic of empathy as a way to prevent burnout, right?

我知道你提出了同理心这个话题，作为防止倦怠的一种方法，对吧？

And here we're not just talking about job burnout.

在这里我们谈论的不仅仅是工作倦怠。

We're talking about the burnout that is inherent to any long-term pursuit that's challenging — raising kids, being in a family.

我们谈论的是任何具有挑战性的长期追求所固有的倦怠——抚养孩子、生活在家庭中。

What is the great Ram Dass quote?

拉姆·达斯的名言是什么？

"Think you're enlightened?

“你以为你开悟了？

Go spend a week with your parents, no matter how enlightened you are." I remind myself that I love my parents.

不管你有多开明，都去和你的父母待一个星期吧。”我提醒自己，我爱我的父母。

I love my parents, but it's just a completely different frame shift.

我爱我的父母，但这只是完全不同的框架转变。

But also kind to oneself.

但也善待自己。

I mean, I think there's starting to be some good neuroscience at the mechanistic level of empathy.

我的意思是，我认为在同理心的机械层面上已经开始出现一些好的神经科学。

Clearly, empathy is not the default state for most people.

显然，同理心并不是大多数人的默认状态。

It's something that we need to cultivate as a practice and that we can cultivate as a practice along the lines of empathy.

这是我们需要作为一种实践来培养的东西，我们可以按照同理心的方式来培养它。

But also returning to a topic that we opened today's discussion with.

但也回到我们今天开始讨论的一个话题。

We build these narratives about ourselves starting in adolescence, maybe even earlier and through our teen years, and we have various experiences.

我们从青春期开始，甚至更早，甚至整个青少年时期，就建立了这些关于自己的叙述，我们有各种各样的经历。

But I'm curious how we can continue to build narratives about ourselves and the role of narrative, the "I" statements, the "I am" statements, and whether or not you and we should all spend some time doing this.

但我很好奇我们如何才能继续构建关于我们自己的叙事以及叙事的作用、“我”陈述、“我是”陈述，以及你和我们是否都应该花一些时间来做这件事。

I mean, these days people exercise because we know it's good for us.

我的意思是，现在人们锻炼身体是因为我们知道这对我们有好处。

I hope people get sunlight because they know it's great for them, that people perhaps have a meditation practice or a therapy practice or a journaling practice.

我希望人们得到阳光，因为他们知道这对他们有好处，人们可能会进行冥想练习、治疗练习或写日记练习。

But how is it that we can continue to evolve our narratives about self in a way that promotes some or all of the things that we've been talking about today?

但是，我们如何才能继续发展我们关于自我的叙述，以促进我们今天所讨论的部分或全部事情呢？

Maya Shankar: Yeah.

玛雅·香卡：是的。

So empathy is really interesting because I think we have a lot of misconceptions about it, and we have misconceptions about how empathetic we actually are.

所以同理心真的很有趣，因为我认为我们对此有很多误解，而且我们对我们实际上有多同理心也有误解。

I would argue people are more empathetic than they think, and let me tell you why.

我认为人们比他们想象的更有同理心，让我告诉你原因。

So, this comes from research by my friend Jamil Zaki at Stanford.

这是我在斯坦福大学的朋友贾米尔·扎基 (Jamil Zaki) 的研究成果。

There're three distinct types of empathy a lot of people don't know about.

很多人不了解三种不同类型的同理心。

So the first kind is emotional empathy, and this is the one that feels very intuitive to most of us.

所以第一种是情感同理心，这对我们大多数人来说都是非常直观的。

So it's this visceral reaction I have.

所以这就是我的本能反应。

You tell me that you've had a really hard time.

你告诉我你过得很艰难。

My eyes start to well up.

我的眼睛开始湿润。

I can truly feel your pain, and I just feel what you feel, okay?

我能真正感受到你的痛苦，我也能感受到你的感受，好吗？

And that typically is what people think of when they think of empathy, period.

当人们想到同理心时，他们通常会想到这一点。

They overlook two other types of empathy.

他们忽视了另外两种类型的同理心。

The second type is called cognitive empathy.

第二种称为认知同理心。

This is the ability to accurately diagnose what it is that's causing you distress in this moment, and what it is that I could offer up to you to try to help ameliorate some of your suffering.

这种能力能够准确地诊断出是什么导致了你此时此刻的痛苦，以及我可以向你提供什么来尝试帮助你减轻一些痛苦。

The third kind is called empathic concern, or it's known as compassion as well, which is the actual desire to help, you desire to help another person.

第三种叫做共情关怀，或者也被称为同情心，这是真正想要帮助的愿望，你想要帮助另一个人。

And what's so interesting about these three types of empathy is that they don't correlate within people.

这三种同理心的有趣之处在于，它们在人与人之间并不相关。

You can be really high on the emotional empathy scale, right?

你的情感同理心量表可能非常高，对吧？

You can have tears streaming down your face as you hear about your friend's divorce, but you might be really bad at diagnosing what it is that's causing them distress.

当你听到朋友离婚的消息时，你可能会泪流满面，但你可能真的不擅长诊断是什么导致了他们的痛苦。

You might be really bad at actually offering up a solution to their problem.

你可能真的不擅长为他们的问题提供解决方案。

Or you might lack the will.

或者你可能缺乏意愿。

Like, if you're sociopathic, you might just not have the will to help someone.

就像，如果你有反社会人格，你可能只是没有意愿帮助别人。

And what's so interesting is that I think in our society, this relates back to identity and the labels we give ourselves.

有趣的是，我认为在我们的社会中，这与我们给自己的身份和标签有关。

I think our society puts a huge premium on emotional empathy, and we discount people who don't have that visceral response, and we just immediately say, oh, they're not empathetic.

我认为我们的社会非常重视情感同理心，我们低估那些没有这种本能反应的人，我们立即说，哦，他们没有同理心。

And this happens from the time that we're really little, by the way, like the kid who's crying on the playground, comforting their friend, right?

顺便说一句，这种情况从我们很小的时候就开始发生了，就像那个在操场上哭泣、安慰他们的朋友的孩子，对吧？

They're like, wow, that kid's got a ton of empathy.

他们就像，哇，那孩子很有同理心。

My older kid doesn't seem to really care about people, but they might excel in cognitive empathy.

我的大孩子似乎并不真正关心别人，但他们可能在认知同理心方面表现出色。

They might excel when it comes to empathic concern.

当涉及到同理心关注时，他们可能会表现出色。

So one of the things I was talking about with Jamil on A Slight Change of Plans, you know, maybe we ought to think about empathy languages in the same way we think about love languages.

所以我在《计划的轻微改变》中与贾米尔讨论的一件事是，也许我们应该像思考爱情语言一样思考同理心语言。

People have different ways of expressing their empathy, and we ought to value them equally.

人们表达同理心的方式不同，我们应该平等地重视它们。

And that's been wonderful, because I think even in the past, I would have had a really hard situation, and I go to one of my friends, and they just seem like, a little bit more stoic.

这真是太棒了，因为我认为即使在过去，我也会遇到非常困难的情况，我去找我的一位朋友，他们看起来有点坚忍。

And I'm like, do you even give a shit?

我想，你还在乎吗？

Why do you not care as much as I want you to care?

为什么你不像我希望你关心的那样关心？

It turns out they're fantastic at wanting to help me and understanding what's wrong with me.

事实证明，他们非常愿意帮助我并理解我的问题所在。

And I love the idea of giving a little more love to those second two buckets, because I think it'll allow us to better recruit more empathy from others and also to see ourselves differently, maybe for those people out there who are like, I'm not a very empathetic person.

我喜欢给后两个桶多一点爱的想法，因为我认为这将使我们能够更好地从他人那里获得更多同理心，并以不同的方式看待自己，也许对于那些像我这样的人来说，我不是一个很有同理心的人。

You might actually be more empathetic than you think.

你实际上可能比你想象的更有同理心。

The second thing I wanted to share is about burnout.

我想分享的第二件事是关于倦怠。

So you talked a little bit about burnout.

所以你谈到了职业倦怠。

People who rate really high on the emotional empathy scale tend to experience burnout at higher rates.

在情感同理心量表上得分非常高的人往往会以更高的比例经历倦怠。

So you can imagine healthcare workers, first responders, essentially what you're doing when you feel emotional empathy is you're carrying the burden of the other person's pain.

所以你可以想象一下，医护人员、急救人员，当你感到情感同理心时，你所做的基本上就是你正在承受他人的痛苦。

So you can easily imagine how that can deplete you.

所以你可以很容易地想象这会如何耗尽你的精力。

And I think the instinct that we have when we're empathetic is to say, you know what?

我认为当我们有同理心时，我们的本能就是说，你知道吗？

I'm just going to shut myself off.

我只想把自己封闭起来。

I had that experience in 2020.

我在2020年就有过这样的经历。

I was like, there's too much bad stuff happening around me.

我当时想，我周围发生了太多糟糕的事情。

Like, I prefer to just not feel things.

就像，我宁愿不去感受事物。

Thank you very much.

非常感谢。

And so I tried to close myself off from natural emotional reactions I would have to things.

所以我试图让自己远离对事物的自然情绪反应。

But what Jamil's research shows is that you don't actually have to.

但贾米尔的研究表明，你实际上不必这样做。

If you cultivate cognitive empathy and empathic concern, those can actually be protective against burnout.

如果你培养认知同理心和同理心，这些实际上可以防止倦怠。

So you don't have to do away with empathy altogether.

所以你不必完全消除同理心。

You just have to shift gears and be more selective about the kind of empathy that you're investing in.

你只需要转变态度，对你所投资的同理心类型更有选择性。

So I love this research because, again, it just opens your mind up to this whole world of empathy that you might have thought of as more as, like, the singular concept and allows there to be a little bit more gray space.

所以我喜欢这项研究，因为它再次让你的思想向整个同理心的世界敞开，你可能会认为这个世界更像是单一的概念，并允许有更多的灰色空间。

Andrew Huberman: I love the idea that there are different categories of empathy.

安德鲁·休伯曼：我喜欢同理心有不同类别的想法。

It will also arm me with a response if ever, hypothetically, someone says, I don't feel like you're really feeling what I'm feeling, and therefore you're not empathic.

如果有人说，假设有人说，我觉得你没有真正感受到我的感受，因此你没有同理心，它也会给我一个回应。

To my experience, where I rate on these scales isn't important.

根据我的经验，我在这些尺度上的评分并不重要。

But this notion of cognitive empathy, I think, is really important and probably one that most people haven't heard of.

但我认为，认知同理心的概念非常重要，而且可能大多数人都没有听说过。

I certainly haven't heard of it, but I like to think that it really does exist and that it's at least--

我当然没有听说过，但我喜欢认为它确实存在，而且至少——

Maya Shankar: And you might have it in spades.

Maya Shankar：你可能确实拥有它。

Andrew Huberman: I don't know.

安德鲁·休伯曼：我不知道。

You'd have to ask the people close to me.

你得问问我身边的人。

But that it is at least as important as the emotional empathy.

但它至少与情感同理心一样重要。

Before we conclude there is something that I unfortunately pushed us past too quickly that I want to return to because I think it's something that so many people care about and live with each day, which is this issue of challenges with ongoing motivation.

在我们结束之前，不幸的是，我太快地把我们过去了，我想回到这一点，因为我认为这是很多人关心并每天生活的事情，这就是持续动力的挑战问题。

And forgive me for doing a bit of an anachronism here.

请原谅我在这里做了一些不合时宜的事情。

I'm sort of jumping back to this because I realized that I pulled us off to another topic, but you've talked about the middle problem before and it's too important to not return to.

我有点跳回这个话题，因为我意识到我把我们带到了另一个话题，但你之前已经讨论过中间的问题，它太重要了，不能不回到这个话题。

So tell us about the middle problem and how we can overcome the middle problem.

那么告诉我们中间的问题以及我们如何克服中间的问题。

Maya Shankar: And before I do that, do you mind if I give just a couple short strategies around goal setting?

Maya Shankar：在我这样做之前，你介意我只给出一些关于目标设定的简短策略吗？

I just want to make sure I round out that section.

我只是想确保我完善了该部分。

Andrew Huberman: Not only would I not mind, I would be delighted.

Andrew Huberman：我不仅不会介意，而且会很高兴。

Maya Shankar: I just want to make sure, again, I share the wisdom that's helped me so much in my personal life.

玛雅·香卡：我只是想再次确保我分享了对我个人生活有很大帮助的智慧。

Okay, I'll try to be fast.

好的，我会尽量快点。

Andrew Huberman: Please take your time.

安德鲁·休伯曼：请慢慢来。

Maya Shankar: But people have these goals to reach, I got to get them out running.

玛雅·香卡：但是人们有这些目标要实现，我必须让他们出去跑步。

So the first is to make sure that you are, so we've already talked about approach versus avoidant goals, right?

所以首先要确保你是这样的，所以我们已经讨论过接近目标和回避目标，对吧？

We've talked about how who sets the goal matters and how if it's you, it's better.

我们已经讨论了谁设定目标的重要性以及如果是你的话，效果会更好。

If you have some ownership over your targets.

如果你对你的目标有一定的所有权。

The third thing is to make sure that you're setting goals when you're in the same psychological and physiological state as the one you'll be in when you're actually pursuing the goal.

第三件事是确保你设定目标时的心理和生理状态与你实际追求目标时的心理和生理状态相同。

Because we tend to have what are known as...

因为我们往往有所谓的...

This is, again, fishbox work.

这又是鱼箱工作。

We tend to have empathy gaps between our present day selves and our future selves.

我们现在的自己和未来的自己之间往往存在同理心差距。

And that empathy gap can lead us to be very compassionate towards 4 p.m.

这种同理心差距会让我们在下午 4 点时变得非常富有同情心。

on Sunday, watching-TV Maya, and 6 a.m.

周日，早上 6 点看电视 Maya

Maya, who I hope is going to be at the gym, like killing herself with a really high-intensity interval set or whatnot.

玛雅，我希望她能去健身房，就像用高强度的间歇训练或诸如此类的东西来自杀。

And so if it is 4 p.m.

如果现在是下午 4 点

on Sunday, probably not the best time for you to say, I'm going to go to the gym every day at 6 a.m.

周日，可能不是你说“我每天早上 6 点去健身房”的最佳时间。

If you actually are at the gym at 6 a.m., and you are feeling viscerally the physiological pain, the psychological pain of having gotten up really early to do the workout, then it's reasonable for you to set that goal.

如果你早上 6 点确实在健身房，并且你内心感受到生理上的痛苦，以及早起锻炼带来的心理上的痛苦，那么你设定这个目标是合理的。

But it's kind of the opposite of, like they say, don't go to the supermarket hungry.

但这与人们所说的“不要饿着肚子去超市”相反。

Actually, in this situation, you want to be in exactly the same physiological and psychological state you'll be in when you're in goal pursuit.

实际上，在这种情况下，您希望处于与追求目标时完全相同的生理和心理状态。

It'll make it much more likely that you set reasonable goals and you actually reach them.

这会让你更有可能设定合理的目标并且真正实现它们。

The second thing that you might want to think about is, so I don't know about you, Andrew, but I feel like I'm a goal purist by nature.

你可能要考虑的第二件事是，安德鲁，我不了解你，但我觉得我本质上是一个目标纯粹主义者。

So when I set a goal, the minute I, like, fall off even slightly, the goal is gone for me, and I'm like, I messed up.

因此，当我设定目标时，一旦我稍微下降，目标对我来说就消失了，我就像，我搞砸了。

Let's start from the beginning.

让我们从头开始吧。

Let's start from scratch.

让我们从头开始。

I need a new goal.

我需要一个新目标。

I've already messed up, and it doesn't matter.

我已经搞砸了，没关系。

So I feel like unless I achieve perfection in achieving my goals, I get very frustrated and I just fall off the wagon completely.

所以我觉得除非我能完美地实现我的目标，否则我会感到非常沮丧，并且完全放弃。

So one thing that researchers have shown is that it's really helpful to build in what's called an emergency reserve into your goal setting, or slack is another way of putting it.

因此，研究人员已经证明，在目标设定中建立所谓的紧急储备确实很有帮助，或者说“松弛”是另一种表达方式。

So let's say I have a goal.

假设我有一个目标。

I want to go to the gym every single day this month.

这个月我想每天都去健身房。

It's really important and helpful to give yourself — and you're not going soft on yourself, I promise — to give yourself, for example, three get-out-of-jail-free cards, three days where, for whatever reason, it's okay that you didn't go to the gym, you got sick.

给自己非常重要和有帮助——我保证，你不会对自己心慈手软——给自己，例如，三张出狱卡，三天，不管出于什么原因，你没有去健身房，生病了也没关系。

Maybe you have kids who got sick.

也许您有生病的孩子。

You're just not feeling motivated.

你只是感觉没有动力。

It doesn't really matter what the reason is.

原因是什么并不重要。

You didn't go to the gym.

你没有去健身房。

But the important thing is that you're still on track to achieving your goal, even if you missed those three days, because you built them into the system.

但重要的是，即使您错过了这三天，您仍然有望实现目标，因为您已将它们内置到系统中。

The final thing I'll say about setting the goal is to try to capitalize on a phenomenon known as the fresh start effect.

关于设定目标，我要说的最后一件事是尝试利用一种称为“新开始效应”的现象。

So this is work by my friend Katy Milkman.

这是我的朋友凯蒂·米尔克曼 (Katy Milkman) 的作品。

She's a professor at Wharton at the University of Pennsylvania.

她是宾夕法尼亚大学沃顿商学院的教授。

So what she's found is that in our lives, we have these big milestone moments where we break from the past and we're entering a new future.

所以她发现，在我们的生活中，我们有这些重大的里程碑时刻，我们摆脱过去，进入一个新的未来。

This might be moving across the country.

这可能会蔓延到全国各地。

It could be getting a new job.

可能会找到一份新工作。

It could be getting married.

可能是要结婚了。

It could be whatever, okay?

可以是任何东西，好吗？

But one, it feels like a big change, and that's a wonderful moment to try to introduce a new set of patterns into your life, in part because, again, you have a break in identity.

但有一点，这感觉像是一个巨大的变化，这是一个尝试将一套新模式引入你的生活的美妙时刻，部分原因是，你的身份再次出现了突破。

But two, it's really easy to introduce new habits when a lot of your environmental circumstances are different.

但第二，当很多环境条件都不同时，养成新习惯真的很容易。

So I take a new job.

所以我接受了一份新工作。

All of a sudden, I have a new route to work.

突然之间，我有了一条新的上班路线。

Probably a good idea to not introduce a pastry stop every time I go to work, because I no longer am passing by that bakery every morning.

也许我每次去上班时不要引入糕点店是个好主意，因为我不再每天早上经过那家面包店。

So you want to capitalize on fresh starts of that kind.

所以你想利用这种新的开始。

There's also more arbitrary fresh starts that exist for all of us, and this is in the form of the first day of the year.

对于我们所有人来说，还有更多任意的新开始，这就是一年的第一天。

So, of course, New Year's resolutions, the first day of spring, even the first day of the week, can be very motivating because we all like clean slates.

所以，当然，新年的决心、春天的第一天，甚至一周的第一天，都可以非常激励人心，因为我们都喜欢干净的石板。

We like wiping away the past.

我们喜欢抹去过去。

We like embarking on a new future that's clean of failure and stumbling and whatnot.

我们喜欢开启一个没有失败、绊脚石之类的新未来。

And so that can be a really powerful motivator.

因此，这可能是一个非常强大的动力。

Andrew Huberman: I love these suggestions because I do think that we like a clean start.

Andrew Huberman：我喜欢这些建议，因为我确实认为我们喜欢一个干净的开始。

There's something to that.

这是有原因的。

Who knows why?

谁知道为什么？

But I think it's a universal trait.

但我认为这是一个普遍特征。

And perhaps shortening the time domain over which we think about our goals and success and failure could help.

也许缩短我们思考目标、成功和失败的时间会有所帮助。

Like if you just say the clean start is this afternoon, because this morning didn't go so well.

就像你只是说今天下午是干净的开始，因为今天早上进展得不太顺利。

Maya Shankar: Yeah, you don't have to surrender the whole week just because you messed up on a Monday morning.

玛雅香卡：是的，你不必因为周一早上搞砸了而放弃整个星期。

Andrew Huberman: That's right.

安德鲁·休伯曼：没错。

Maya Shankar: Yeah.

玛雅·香卡：是的。

Andrew Huberman: I'm sensing the perfectionist in you.

Andrew Huberman：我感觉到你身上有完美主义者。

And I know that it's a continuum.

我知道这是一个连续体。

Some people don't, I don't want to say suffer from perfectionism, because I think it's a great attribute in certain domains and can be challenging in others.

有些人没有，我不想说他们患有完美主义，因为我认为这在某些领域是一个很好的属性，但在其他领域可能具有挑战性。

But I love the idea of having a little bit of grace with one's goals.

但我喜欢对自己的目标保持一点优雅的想法。

And also what you said earlier of making the carrot compelling and not so much focusing on just the stick, making the carrot more compelling, so much there.

还有你之前所说的，让胡萝卜引人注目，而不是只关注大棒，让胡萝卜更引人注目，就这么多。

What about the middle problem?

中间的问题呢？

Yeah, because I do think that people do tend to go hard out the gate, as it were, and then people drop off.

是的，因为我确实认为人们确实倾向于努力走出大门，就像以前那样，然后人们就会放弃。

Maya Shankar: Yeah.

玛雅·香卡：是的。

So, yeah, all the stuff we talked about so far has been around defining the goal.

所以，是的，到目前为止我们讨论的所有内容都是围绕定义目标。

And now we need to think about how we sustain our motivation to pursue the goal.

现在我们需要思考如何维持追求目标的动力。

And this can be super hard.

这可能非常困难。

Again, behavior change is incredibly hard to sustain.

同样，行为改变是极其难以维持的。

So the middle problem.

那么中间的问题。

So the middle problem refers to the fact that we don't have stable amounts of motivation over the course of goal pursuit.

所以中间的问题是指我们在追求目标的过程中没有稳定的动力。

We tend to have a boost in motivation at the beginning of the pursuit.

在追求之初，我们的动力往往会增强。

We all feel this viscerally, right?

我们都发自内心地感受到这一点，对吗？

I've decided I'm going to do intermittent fasting, or I'm going to make sure I look at the sun every morning the first moment that I get up, or whatever the goal is on that first day, you are so motivated to get it done right.

我决定要进行间歇性禁食，或者我要确保每天早上起床的第一刻就看着太阳，或者无论第一天的目标是什么，你都会有动力去完成它。

In fact, the first few days, the first few weeks, and then you experience a boost in motivation, a higher amount of motivation towards the end of the goal.

事实上，在最初的几天、最初的几周，你会体验到动力的提升，在实现目标的过程中会有更高的动力。

So we experience at the end of a goal what's known as the goal gradient effect.

因此，我们在目标结束时会经历所谓的目标梯度效应。

So we tend to experience monotonic increases in motivation the closer we are to the finish line.

因此，越接近终点线，我们的动力往往会单调增加。

So we might even see it in marathon runners, right?

所以我们甚至可能在马拉松运动员身上看到它，对吗？

They're like, okay, I only have this remaining part to go.

他们说，好吧，我只剩下剩下的部分了。

I can expend all my energy now to try to get over the finish line.

我现在可以耗尽我所有的精力来尝试冲过终点线。

There's a lull, though, in motivation in the middle of goal pursuit, and that's something that we want to get ahead of, we want to solve.

然而，在追求目标的过程中，动力会出现间歇期，这是我们想要超越、想要解决的问题。

For now, obviously, we cannot eliminate middles.

显然，目前我们还无法消除中间环节。

Mathematically impossible to eliminate middles.

从数学上讲不可能消除中间。

So what do we do?

那么我们该怎么办呢？

Well, we do something that you already alluded to, which is actually we shorten the time duration of our goals.

嗯，我们做了你已经提到过的事情，这实际上是我们缩短了目标的持续时间。

So rather than setting an annual goal, right, let's say that it's the New Year, you're inspired to try to make 2023 the best year ever.

因此，与其设定年度目标，对吧，假设现在是新年，您会受到启发，努力让 2023 年成为有史以来最好的一年。

But the problem with that is when you set an annual goal, now your middle is months long, so you're going to experience that decrease in motivation for a healthy chunk of the year, which is not ideal.

但问题是，当你设定年度目标时，现在你的中期目标长达数月之久，所以你会经历一年中大部分时间的动力下降，这是不理想的。

If you set a weekly goal, by contrast, all of a sudden, your middle is a lot shorter, right?

相比之下，如果你设定了每周目标，突然之间，你的腰部就短了很多，对吧？

All of a sudden you're dealing with like a few days, maybe a day or two.

突然之间，你要处理几天，也许一两天。

And so you want to be mindful of the duration of the goal.

所以你要注意目标的持续时间。

Another thing that can help keep motivation high is to do what my friend Katy Milkman calls temptation bundling.

另一件有助于保持高动力的事情是我的朋友凯蒂·米尔克曼（Katy Milkman）所说的“诱惑捆绑”。

So this has, number one, been my go-to strategy for having done every unpleasant activity in my life that I've had to do, okay?

所以，第一，这是我完成生活中每一件我不得不做的不愉快活动的首选策略，好吗？

Folding laundry, doing the dishes.

叠衣服、洗碗。

I actually really like working out like you do, so I don't need as much motivation, but sometimes I still need that for high intensity days.

事实上，我真的很喜欢像你一样锻炼，所以我不需要那么多动力，但有时我仍然需要高强度的日子。

I do need the motivation to do, like, the hard cardio.

我确实需要动力去做有氧运动。

So to get on into working out in that way.

所以要以这种方式开始锻炼。

So what is temptation bundling?

那么什么是诱惑捆绑呢？

You're pairing an unpleasant activity like folding laundry, doing dishes, taking out the trash, with an immediately rewarding, enjoyable activity that can be listening to your favorite podcasts, which are, of course, the Huberman Lab, and A Slight Change of Plans.

你正在将叠衣服、洗碗、倒垃圾等不愉快的活动与立即有回报的、令人愉快的活动配对，比如听你最喜欢的播客，当然是《休伯曼实验室》和《计划的轻微改变》。

Obviously, it could be listening to your favorite pop music, but the really critical piece of the temptation bundling is that you have to forgo the indulgence of enjoying that rewarding activity in all other spaces of your life.

显然，它可能是听你最喜欢的流行音乐，但诱惑捆绑中真正关键的部分是你必须放弃在生活的所有其他空间中享受这种有益活动的放纵。

So, for example, for me, I feel like a good pop song.

例如，对我来说，我感觉自己是一首很好的流行歌曲。

I have, like, 25 really good listens, and then it kind of becomes old hat.

我有 25 首非常好的听歌，然后它就变得过时了。

So just, like, the excitement of the song wears off a bit.

所以，就像，这首歌的兴奋感逐渐消失了。

So there have been times where I'll be, like, cooking with my husband, and he's like, hey, why don't we play, you love Kasey Musgraves, why don't we play that album?

所以有时候我会和我丈夫一起做饭，他会说，嘿，我们为什么不演奏，你喜欢 Kasey Musgraves，我们为什么不演奏那张专辑呢？

And I'm like, no, that's an album I can only listen to when I'm, like, lifting weights.

我想，不，这是一张我只能在举重时听的专辑。

Andrew Huberman: Maintain the potency.

Andrew Huberman：保持效力。

Maya Shankar: You have to maintain the potency, right?

Maya Shankar：你必须保持效力，对吧？

You don't allow yourself to get the joy and edification of the Huberman Lab when you're not taking a walk and getting exposure to that morning sunlight.

当你不散步、不沐浴早晨的阳光时，你就不允许自己享受胡伯曼实验室的快乐和启发。

And it's such a simple strategy when you think about it.

仔细想想，这是一个非常简单的策略。

But I have found myself looking forward to really annoying tasks that I have to get done because I know I'm going to get the enjoyment of something really fun that accompanies it.

但我发现自己期待着必须完成的非常烦人的任务，因为我知道我会享受伴随它的真正有趣的事情。

Andrew Huberman: Fantastic.

安德鲁·休伯曼：太棒了。

Is it important that the thing that one enjoys be done simultaneously?

同时做自己喜欢的事情重要吗？

So folding laundry while watching the Netflix thing or listening to a particular piece of music?

那么，一边看 Netflix 节目或听一首特定的音乐一边叠衣服？

Maya Shankar: Yeah, you want them to coexist, because then again, you get that immediately.

玛雅·香卡：是的，你希望它们共存，因为话又说回来，你立刻就明白了。

Most of the time, the things that we lament doing have really positive long-term outcomes.

大多数时候，我们感叹的事情确实会带来积极的长期结果。

If I'm in the habit of keeping my house clean, there's long-term benefits.

如果我养成保持房子清洁的习惯，就会有长期的好处。

If I'm in the habit of exercising or eating healthily, there's long-term benefits.

如果我养成锻炼或健康饮食的习惯，就会有长期的好处。

But I don't often feel the rewards in real time.

但我并不经常实时感受到回报。

So what you're trying to do is give yourself that rush of joy and excitement that accompanies the immediately rewarding activity so that in your mind, even just, like neurally, the two things are coexisting.

因此，你要做的就是给自己带来喜悦和兴奋，伴随着立即有回报的活动，这样在你的脑海中，即使只是像神经一样，这两件事是共存的。

Andrew Huberman: I love it because it has such firm grounding in the neurobiology of reward and aversion and how to overcome aversion.

Andrew Huberman：我喜欢它，因为它在奖励和厌恶的神经生物学以及如何克服厌恶方面有如此坚实的基础。

There's deep neuroscience around this, but I've never heard it presented that way.

这方面有很深的神经科学，但我从来没有听说过这样的说法。

So thank you for those incredibly clear and actionable tools for motivation, because so many people struggle with that.

所以感谢你们提供了那些极其清晰且可操作的激励工具，因为很多人都在为此苦苦挣扎。

Maya Shankar: Yeah.

玛雅·香卡：是的。

Andrew Huberman: And I hear that all the time.

Andrew Huberman：我一直听到这样的说法。

Maya Shankar: And I think you talked about aversion.

玛雅香卡：我认为你谈到了厌恶。

And actually, this is really important.

事实上，这非常重要。

So when we think about returning to our goals, which is often the hard thing.

因此，当我们考虑重返目标时，这通常是一件困难的事情。

So you do it on a Monday, and you have that same goal on a Tuesday, and then on a Wednesday, and on Thursday, and by Thursday you're kind of like, oh, my God, it was so hard the first few days.

所以你在周一这样做，周二你有同样的目标，然后周三，周四，到周四你有点像，哦，天哪，前几天太难了。

Do I really want to go back and do the same workout on a Thursday?

我真的想在周四回去做同样的锻炼吗？

What's really helpful here to avoid some of that aversion is to be mindful of the way in which our minds process memories.

真正有助于避免这种厌恶的方法是注意我们的大脑处理记忆的方式。

So when we reflect back on how much we enjoyed or didn't enjoy an experience, we don't give equal weight to every moment.

因此，当我们回想我们有多喜欢或不喜欢一次经历时，我们并没有对每一刻给予同等的重视。

Each moment doesn't get uniform weight.

每个时刻都没有统一的权重。

Instead, we tend to give more weight to what's called the peak of the experience.

相反，我们倾向于更加重视所谓的巅峰体验。

So the experience that was most emotionally intense, the part of the experience that was the most emotionally intense, and the end of the experience.

因此，情感最强烈的体验、情感最强烈的体验部分以及体验的结束。

So this is work done by Nobel laureate Daniel Kahneman and his collaborator, Amos Tversky.

这是诺贝尔奖获得者丹尼尔·卡尼曼和他的合作者阿莫斯·特沃斯基完成的工作。

So the peak end rule is what this is called.

所以这就是所谓的峰终规则。

So you put a lot of weight on, again, that really emotionally intense moment of the experience and the end.

所以你再次非常重视经历和结束时情感上非常激烈的时刻。

Now, researchers have studied this in the context of lots of unpleasant activities.

现在，研究人员在许多不愉快的活动的背景下对此进行了研究。

So in some studies, people are forced to submerge their hands in ice cold water, or they looked at colonoscopies, for example, and how unpleasant those are.

因此，在一些研究中，人们被迫将手浸入冰冷的水中，或者观看结肠镜检查，这些都是多么令人不快。

And what they found is that this is so interesting.

他们发现这非常有趣。

Okay, I'm nerding out a little bit because I just think that this field is so cool.

好吧，我有点书呆子，因为我只是觉得这个领域太酷了。

Andrew Huberman: Nerding out isn't just tolerated.

Andrew Huberman：书呆子气不仅是可以容忍的。

It is encouraged on this podcast,

在这个播客中受到鼓励，

Maya Shankar: I'm having a moment with cognitive science.

Maya Shankar：我正在研究认知科学。

But this is such cool research, because what these researchers did, it's so clever.

但这是一项很酷的研究，因为这些研究人员所做的事情非常聪明。

If you elongate the unpleasant experience by a couple of minutes, let's say, so, the hands in freezing cold ice water or the colonoscopy, but you make those last few minutes of the unpleasant experience slightly less unpleasant than the end of the experience would otherwise have been.

如果你把不愉快的经历延长几分钟，比如说，把手放在冰冷的冰水中或进行结肠镜检查，但你会让不愉快经历的最后几分钟比经历结束时的不愉快程度稍微减轻一些。

Right, had you just ended the colonoscopy procedure as planned, had you just taken the hands right out of the ice bucket by, for example, increasing the temperature of the water by a degree, or use your imagination, whatever the equivalent.

是的，如果你刚刚按计划结束了结肠镜检查程序，你是否刚刚将手从冰桶中取出，例如，将水温提高一度，或者发挥你的想象力，无论什么都可以。

Andrew Huberman: How can you make a colonoscopy less?

Andrew Huberman：如何才能减少结肠镜检查次数？

Maya Shankar: There are mechanisms by which the pain can be less.

Maya Shankar：有一些机制可以减轻疼痛。

Andrew Huberman: Physicians everywhere know them, but we are oblivious to them.

Andrew Huberman：世界各地的医生都知道它们，但我们却忽视了它们。

Maya Shankar: Anyway, you guys can do the mental work of figuring out what the equivalent is on Google.

Maya Shankar：无论如何，你们可以通过脑力劳动找出 Google 上的对应内容。

What they find is that people look back on the experience more favorably.

他们发现，人们回顾这段经历时更加有利。

They have a more positive impression of the experience.

他们对这次经历有更积极的印象。

Now, again, this is what's so miraculous about this finding.

现在，这又是这一发现的神奇之处。

The overall duration of the unpleasant experience has been extended.

不愉快经历的总持续时间已经延长。

There are more minutes of overall suffering, right?

整体痛苦的时间还有更多，对吗？

But the last few minutes are less bad than they would have been otherwise.

但最后几分钟的情况并没有原本那么糟糕。

And so people are, they view the experience more favorably.

人们也是如此，他们对这种体验更加有利。

In the case of the colonoscopies, they were actually more likely to return for follow-up visits, for their annual checkups.

就结肠镜检查而言，他们实际上更有可能返回进行随访，进行年度检查。

And so what does this mean in daily life?

那么这在日常生活中意味着什么呢？

Well, what it can mean is, let's say you are literally killing yourself at the gym.

好吧，它的意思是，假设你在健身房里实际上是在自杀。

You have the hardest workout that you've ever had.

您正在进行有史以来最艰苦的锻炼。

Tack on a few minutes to the end of the workout that are still unpleasant, so you're still coding them as being part of the unpleasant working out experience, but are a little bit less intense and less painful than the workout end would have been otherwise, you might be more likely to return and actually do the hard workout.

在锻炼结束前坚持几分钟，这仍然是不愉快的，所以你仍然将它们编码为不愉快的锻炼体验的一部分，但比锻炼结束时的强度和痛苦要小一些，否则，你可能更有可能返回并实际进行艰苦的锻炼。

Andrew Huberman: Can we also say if somebody really enjoys their training, that the opposite would be effective as well?

Andrew Huberman：我们是否也可以说，如果有人真的喜欢他们的训练，那么相反的训练也会有效？

That perhaps if they really want to push it hard at the end, because that's the sensation that they particularly enjoy, that that could serve, presumably, the memory systems and the reward systems of the brain such that they are more likely to return to the workout again.

也许如果他们真的想在最后努力坚持下去，因为这是他们特别喜欢的感觉，这可能会服务于大脑的记忆系统和奖励系统，这样他们更有可能再次回到锻炼中。

Maya Shankar: Absolutely.

玛雅·香卡：当然。

You raise a fantastic point, which is when we talk about enjoyment in these contexts, it is all subjective.

你提出了一个很棒的观点，那就是当我们在这些背景下谈论享受时，这都是主观的。

So I actually kind of love the feeling like, I'm going to die, because my heart is racing.

所以我实际上有点喜欢这种感觉，就像我快要死了，因为我的心跳加速。

So, I mean, for whatever reason, I'm just wired to love exercise, right.

所以，我的意思是，无论出于什么原因，我只是热爱锻炼，对吧。

And I love a heart strength-training workout.

我喜欢心脏力量训练。

And so for me, what enjoyment might look like at the end is really intense.

所以对我来说，最终的享受真的很强烈。

Right.

正确的。

That might be what brings me back.

这可能就是让我回来的原因。

But in other domains, absolutely not, like the colonoscopy situation.

但在其他领域，绝对不是，比如结肠镜检查的情况。

I do not want that to be an unpleasant experience.

我不希望这是一次不愉快的经历。

And so there are lots of other domains in life where if you just tack on a few of the few minutes onto something that's really tedious or really hard or really painful, it can make you more likely to commit to it later.

因此，生活中还有很多其他领域，如果你只是在几分钟内花几分钟去做一些非常乏味、非常困难或非常痛苦的事情，它会让你以后更有可能致力于它。

But it's an excellent point.

但这是一个很好的观点。

In all of these studies, you have to consider who the person is and what their natural psychology is like.

在所有这些研究中，你必须考虑这个人是谁以及他们的自然心理是什么样的。

And for everyone listening, you want to tailor these recommendations to who you are as a person.

对于每个倾听的人，您希望根据您的个性定制这些建议。

Andrew Huberman: Well, there are certain life demands that I find incredibly aversive, so I'm going to use this approach for those.

Andrew Huberman：嗯，有些生活要求我觉得非常令人厌恶，所以我将使用这种方法来满足这些要求。

I'm also going to use them in the context of things I really enjoy.

我还将在我真正喜欢的事情中使用它们。

Because if one has the opportunity, I believe, to further reinforce the things that bring us joy, why wouldn't we?

因为我相信，如果一个人有机会进一步强化那些给我们带来快乐的事物，我们为什么不呢？

Maya Shankar: Absolutely.

玛雅·香卡：当然。

Andrew Huberman: Fantastic recommendations.

Andrew Huberman：很棒的建议。

Listen, I could ask you 1,000 more questions, and my hope is that you'll come back--

听着，我可以再问你 1000 个问题，我希望你能回来——

Maya Shankar: I'd love to--

玛雅·香卡：我很乐意——

Andrew Huberman: --so that I can ask you those 1,000 plus more questions.

Andrew Huberman：——这样我就可以问你这 1,000 多个问题。

I have to say, it is exceedingly rare that I talk to somebody either on the podcast or elsewhere, frankly, in my life, that has such an incredibly wide breadth of knowledge and yet has so much depth of knowledge as well.

我不得不说，坦率地说，在我的生活中，我在播客或其他地方与某人交谈的人非常罕见，他的知识广度如此之广，但知识的深度也如此之深。

It's clear that your many experiences through music and cognitive science, podcasting, and by the way, we're going to provide links to your podcast in the show note captions so that people can hear more from you, as they should, and also your work in policy.

很明显，您通过音乐和认知科学、播客获得了许多经验，顺便说一句，我们将在节目注释标题中提供指向您的播客的链接，以便人们可以听到您的更多信息（他们应该这样做），以及您在政策方面的工作。

You've put yourself in a lot of different domains, and I think that itself is inspiring.

您将自己置于许多不同的领域，我认为这本身就很鼓舞人心。

And whether or not it's by way of curiosity, human connection, or both, presumably it's both and many other things as well.

无论是出于好奇心、人际关系还是两者兼而有之，想必两者兼而有之，还有许多其他原因。

I know I speak on behalf of many, many people.

我知道我代表很多很多人发言。

I just say thank you so much for doing the work that you do, for continuing along these pursuits.

我只是说非常感谢你所做的工作，感谢你继续这些追求。

I'm excited to hear where it might evolve in the future still, and frankly, just for being you, because it's clear that your enthusiasm, your curiosity, and your generosity with useful information is immense.

我很高兴听到它未来的发展方向，坦率地说，只是因为你，因为很明显，你的热情、你的好奇心以及你对有用信息的慷慨是巨大的。

So thank you ever so much.

所以非常感谢你。

Maya Shankar: Well, that's so gracious and kind of you to say, Andrew.

玛雅·香卡：嗯，安德鲁，你说得真是客气又友善。

And these conversations, like the one we just had, I mean, it's why I do the work.

这些对话，就像我们刚刚进行的对话一样，我的意思是，这就是我从事这项工作的原因。

It's so much fun and so interesting, and you've given me so much food for thought.

这太有趣了，太有趣了，你给了我很多思考的空间。

It really was a conversation, not an interview, and that's such a gift.

这确实是一次谈话，而不是一次采访，这真是一份礼物。

And so I just feel gratitude that I can share my body of work and all the insights I've learned along the way with your listeners, and I really hope it's helpful to them.

因此，我很感激能够与听众分享我的工作和我一路上学到的所有见解，我真的希望这对他们有帮助。

Andrew Huberman: It certainly is, and it's been an honor to have you here.

Andrew Huberman：确实如此，很荣幸您能来到这里。

So let's do it again.

那么让我们再做一次。

Maya Shankar: Yes, let's do it again.

玛雅香卡：是的，让我们再做一次。

Thanks so much.

非常感谢。

Andrew Huberman: Thank you.

安德鲁·休伯曼：谢谢。

Thank you for joining me for today's discussion about identity and goals and motivation with Dr. Maya Shankar.

感谢您今天与我一起与 Maya Shankar 博士讨论身份、目标和动机。

If you're learning from and or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel.

如果您正在学习或喜欢此播客，请订阅我们的 YouTube 频道。

That's a terrific, zero-cost way to support us.

这是支持我们的绝佳且零成本的方式。

In addition, please subscribe to the podcast on Spotify and Apple.

此外，请订阅 Spotify 和 Apple 上的播客。

And on both Spotify and Apple, you can leave us up to a five-star review.

在 Spotify 和 Apple 上，您都可以给我们五星级的评价。

If you have questions for me or comments about the podcast or guests that you'd like me to consider hosting on the Huberman Lab podcast, please put those in the comments section on YouTube.

如果您对我有疑问或对您希望我考虑在 Huberman Lab 播客上主持的播客或嘉宾有意见，请将这些意见放在 YouTube 的评论部分。

I do read all the comments.

我确实阅读了所有评论。

Please also check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode.

另请查看今天节目开头和整个节目中提到的赞助商。

That's the best way to support this podcast.

这是支持这个播客的最佳方式。

Not on today's podcast, but on many previous episodes of the Huberman Lab podcast, we discuss supplements.

不是在今天的播客中，而是在 Huberman Lab 播客的许多先前剧集中，我们讨论了补充剂。

While supplements aren't necessary for everybody, many people derive tremendous benefit from them for things like improving sleep hormone support and focus.

虽然补充剂并不是每个人都需要的，但许多人从它们中获得了巨大的好处，例如改善睡眠激素支持和注意力。

The Huberman Lab podcast has partnered with Momentous Supplements.

Huberman Lab 播客与 Momentous Supplements 合作。

If you'd like to access the supplements discussed on the Huberman Lab podcast, you can go to livemomentous, spelled O-U-S.

如果您想访问 Huberman Lab 播客上讨论的补充内容，您可以访问 livemomentous，拼写为 O-U-S。

So it's livemomentous.com/huberman, and you can also receive 20% off.

所以它是 livemomentous.com/huberman，您还可以获得 20% 的折扣。

Again, that's livemomentous, spelled O-U-S .com/huberman.

再说一遍，这很生动，拼写为 O-U-S .com/huberman。

If you haven't already subscribed to our Neural Network Newsletter, our Neural Network Newsletter is a completely zero-cost monthly newsletter that includes summaries of podcast episodes as well as protocols, that is, short PDFs describing, for instance, tools to improve sleep, tools to improve neuroplasticity.

如果您还没有订阅我们的神经网络时事通讯，我们的神经网络时事通讯是完全零成本的月度时事通讯，其中包括播客剧集和协议的摘要，即描述改善睡眠的工具、改善神经可塑性的工具等的简短 PDF。

We talk about deliberate cold exposure, fitness, various aspects of mental health, again, all completely zero cost.

我们再次谈论刻意的寒冷暴露、健身、心理健康的各个方面，所有这些都是完全零成本的。

And to sign up, you simply go to hubermanlab.com, go over to the menu in the corner, scroll down to newsletter, and provide your email.

要注册，您只需访问 hubermanlab.com，转到角落的菜单，向下滚动到时事通讯，然后提供您的电子邮件。

We do not share your email with anybody.

我们不会与任何人分享您的电子邮件。

If you're not already following me on social media, I am Huberman Lab on all platforms.

如果您还没有在社交媒体上关注我，我是所有平台上的 Huberman Lab。

So that's Instagram, Twitter, Threads, LinkedIn and Facebook.

这就是 Instagram、Twitter、Threads、LinkedIn 和 Facebook。

And at all of those places I talk about science and science-related tools, some of which overlaps with the content of the Huberman Lab podcast, but much of which is distinct from the content of the Huberman Lab podcast.

在所有这些地方，我都谈论科学和与科学相关的工具，其中一些与胡伯曼实验室播客的内容重叠，但其中大部分与胡伯曼实验室播客的内容不同。

Again, it's Huberman Lab on all social media platforms.

同样，所有社交媒体平台上都是 Huberman Lab。

Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Maya Shankar.

再次感谢您参加今天与 Maya Shankar 博士的讨论。

And last but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.

最后但并非最不重要的一点是，感谢您对科学的兴趣。