Dr. Matt Walker: The Science & Practice of Perfecting Your Sleep
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.
欢迎来到休伯曼实验室播客，我们在这里讨论科学和基于科学的日常生活工具。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm Andrew Huberman and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.
我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。
Today I have the pleasure of introducing Dr. Matthew Walker as our guest on the Huberman Lab podcast.
今天，我很荣幸地介绍马修·沃克博士作为我们胡伯曼实验室播客的嘉宾。
Dr. Walker is a professor of neuroscience and psychology at the University of California, Berkeley.
沃克博士是加州大学伯克利分校的神经科学和心理学教授。
There his laboratory studies sleep.
他的实验室研究就在那里睡觉。
They study why we sleep; what occurs during sleep, such as dreams, and why we dream.
他们研究我们为什么睡觉；睡眠期间会发生什么，例如做梦，以及为什么我们会做梦。
Learning during sleep, as well as the consequences of getting insufficient or poor-quality sleep on waking states.
睡眠期间的学习，以及清醒状态下睡眠不足或质量差的后果。
Dr. Walker is also the author of the international bestselling book "Why We Sleep." Our discussion today is an absolutely fascinating one for anyone that's interested in sleep learning or human performance of any kind.
沃克博士还是国际畅销书《我们为什么睡觉》的作者。对于任何对睡眠学习或任何类型的人类表现感兴趣的人来说，我们今天的讨论绝对是一场令人着迷的讨论。
Dr. Walker teaches us how to get better at sleeping.
沃克博士教我们如何改善睡眠。
He also discusses naps, whether or not we should or should not nap, whether or not we can compensate for lost sleep, and if so, how to best do that.
他还讨论了小睡，我们是否应该小睡，我们是否可以弥补睡眠不足，如果可以，如何最好地做到这一点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We discuss behavioral protocols and interactions with light, temperature, supplementation, food, exercise, sex, all the variables that can impact this incredible state of mind and body that we call sleep.
我们讨论行为方案以及与光、温度、补充剂、食物、运动、性的相互作用，以及所有可能影响这种令人难以置信的身心状态（我们称之为睡眠）的变量。
During my scientific career, I've read many papers about sleep and attended many seminars about sleep.
在我的科学生涯中，我阅读了许多有关睡眠的论文并参加了许多有关睡眠的研讨会。
Yet my discussion with Dr. Walker today revealed to me more about sleep, sleep science, and how to get better at sleeping than all of those papers and seminars combined.
然而，我今天与沃克博士的讨论向我揭示了更多关于睡眠、睡眠科学以及如何改善睡眠的知识，比所有这些论文和研讨会的总和还要多。
I'm also delighted to share that Dr. Walker has started a podcast.
我也很高兴地告诉大家，沃克博士已经开始了播客。
That podcast, entitled the Matt Walker podcast, releases its first episode this month and is going to teach all about sleep and how to get better at sleeping.
该播客名为马特·沃克播客，本月发布了第一集，将教授有关睡眠以及如何改善睡眠的所有内容。
So be sure to check out the Matt Walker podcast on Apple, Spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts.
因此，请务必在 Apple、Spotify 或任何您收听播客的地方查看 Matt Walker 播客。
Before we begin, I'd like to mention that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.
在开始之前，我想提一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero-cost-to-consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public.
然而，我的愿望和努力的一部分是将有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本消费者信息带给公众。
In keeping with that theme, I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast.
为了与这个主题保持一致，我要感谢今天播客的赞助商。
And now my discussion with Dr. Matt Walker.
现在是我与马特·沃克博士的讨论。
Great to finally meet you in person.
很高兴终于见到你本人了。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Wonderful to connect.
连接起来真是太好了。
I mean, it's been too long, but I suspect it would've been a shorter time before we'd met, lest the pandemic.
我的意思是，已经过去太久了，但我怀疑我们见面的时间会更短，以免流行病。
Thank you.
谢谢。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thank you.
谢谢你。
Yeah.
是的。
I'm delighted that we're finally sitting down face-to-face.
我很高兴我们终于面对面坐下来了。
I've been tracking your work both in the Internet sphere and I read your book and loved it.
我一直在互联网领域跟踪您的工作，我读了您的书并且很喜欢它。
And also from the perspective of science, you actually came to Stanford a couple of years ago and gave a lecture for Brain Mind.
而且从科学的角度来看，几年前您实际上来到了斯坦福大学，为 Brain Mind 做了一次演讲。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
哦，是啊，是啊，是啊，是啊。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And of course you talked about sleep and its utility and its challenges and how to conquer it, so to speak.
当然，您谈到了睡眠及其效用、挑战以及如何克服它，可以这么说。
Let's start off very basic.
让我们从非常基础的开始。
What is sleep?
什么是睡眠？
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Sleep is probably the single most effective thing you can do to reset your brain and body health.
睡眠可能是重置大脑和身体健康最有效的方法。
So that's a functional answer in terms of what is sleep, in terms of its benefits.
因此，就什么是睡眠及其好处而言，这是一个功能性的答案。
Sleep as a process, though, is an incredibly complex physiological ballet, and if you were to recognize or see what happens to your brain and your body at night during sleep, you would be blown away.
然而，睡眠作为一个过程，是一场极其复杂的生理芭蕾，如果你要认识或看看你的大脑和身体在夜间睡眠期间发生了什么，你会大吃一惊。
And the paradox is that most of us, and I would think this too if I wasn't a sleep scientist, we go to bed, we lose consciousness for seven to nine hours, and then we sort of wake up in the morning, and we generally feel better.
矛盾的是，我们大多数人，如果我不是睡眠科学家，我也会这么认为，我们上床睡觉，失去知觉七到九个小时，然后我们早上醒来，我们通常感觉好多了。
And in some ways, that denies the physiological and biological beauty of sleep.
在某些方面，这否认了睡眠的生理和生物之美。
So upstairs in your brain when you're going through these different stages of sleep, the changes in brainwave activity are far more dramatic than those that we see when we're awake.
因此，当您经历这些不同的睡眠阶段时，在大脑的上层，脑电波活动的变化比我们清醒时看到的变化要剧烈得多。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
And we can speak about deep sleep and what happens there.
我们可以谈论深度睡眠以及深度睡眠中发生的事情。
REM sleep is a fascinating time which is another stage of sleep, often called dream sleep, which is rapid eye movement sleep.
快速眼动睡眠是一个令人着迷的时间，它是睡眠的另一个阶段，通常称为梦境睡眠，即快速眼动睡眠。
That stage of sleep, some parts of your brain are up to 30% more active than when you're awake.
在睡眠阶段，您大脑的某些部分比清醒时活跃 30%。
So again, it's kind of violating this idea that our mind is dormant, and our body is just simply quiescent and resting.
再说一次，这有点违反了我们的思想处于休眠状态，而我们的身体只是静止和休息的想法。
So I would happy to just sort of double-click on either one of those and also what changes in the body as well.
所以我很乐意双击其中任何一个以及身体的变化。
But it is an intense evolutionary adaptive benefit and system.
但这是一个强烈的进化适应性利益和系统。
That said though, I would almost push back against an evolved system.
尽管如此，我几乎会反对一个进化的系统。
When we think about the question of sleep and what sleep is, our assumption has always been that we evolved to sleep.
当我们思考睡眠问题以及睡眠是什么时，我们的假设始终是我们进化到了睡眠。
And I've actually questioned that, and I have no way to get in a time capsule and go back and prove this.
我实际上对此提出过质疑，而且我没有办法进入时间胶囊并回去证明这一点。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
But what if we started off sleeping, and it was from sleep that wakefulness emerged?
但如果我们从睡眠开始，而清醒是从睡眠中出现的呢？
Why do we assume that it's the other way around?
为什么我们假设情况正好相反？
And I think there's probably some really good evidence that sleep may have been the proto-state, that it was the basic, fundamental living state.
我认为可能有一些非常好的证据表明睡眠可能是原始状态，它是基本的生活状态。
And when we became awake, as it were, we always had to return to sleep.
当我们醒来时，我们总是不得不回去睡觉。
In some ways at that point, sleep was the price that we paid for wakefulness.
在某种程度上，在那时，睡眠是我们为清醒而付出的代价。
And that's another way of describing what sleep is.
这是描述睡眠的另一种方式。
But again, I think it sort of denies that the active state of sleep, it's not a passive state of sleep either.
但我再次认为，这有点否认主动睡眠状态，它也不是被动睡眠状态。
And then finally, you can say what is sleep across different species, and in us, human beings, and in all mammalian species and avian species as well, sleep is broadly separated into these two main types.
最后，你可以说什么是不同物种的睡眠，在我们人类以及所有哺乳动物和鸟类中，睡眠大致分为这两种主要类型。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
And we've got non-rapid eye movement sleep on the one hand, and then we've got rapid eye movement sleep on the other.
一方面我们有非快速眼动睡眠，另一方面我们有快速眼动睡眠。
And we can speak about how they unfold across the night and their architecture because it's not just intellectually interesting from the perspective of what sleep is.
我们可以谈论它们如何在夜间展开以及它们的结构，因为从睡眠的角度来看，这不仅仅是智力上的有趣。
It's also practically impactful for our daily lives.
它对我们的日常生活也有实际影响。
And I'd love to sort of go down that route too, but you navigate, you tell me.
我也很想走那条路，但你告诉我，你可以导航。
I can-
我可以——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Let's definitely go down that route.
我们一定要沿着这条路走下去。
So you mentioned how active the brain is during certain phases of sleep.
所以你提到了大脑在睡眠的某些阶段是多么活跃。
When I was coming up in science, REM sleep, rapid eye movement sleep, was referred to as paradoxical sleep.
当我开始接触科学时，快速眼动睡眠（快速眼动睡眠）被称为矛盾睡眠。
Is that still a good way to think about it?
这仍然是一个好的思考方式吗？
Paradoxical because the brain is so active, and yet we are essentially paralyzed.
矛盾的是，大脑如此活跃，但我们本质上却处于瘫痪状态。
Correct?
正确的？
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Yeah.
是的。
It really is a paradox.
这确实是一个悖论。
And where that came from was simply the brainwave recordings, that if all I'm measuring about you is your brainwave activity, it's very difficult for me sitting outside of the sleep laboratory room to figure out are you awake or are you in REM sleep?
它的来源只是脑电波记录，如果我测量的只是你的脑电波活动，那么我坐在睡眠实验室外面就很难弄清楚你是醒着还是处于快速眼动睡眠中？
Because those two patterns of brain activity are so close to one another, you can't discriminate between them.
因为这两种大脑活动模式非常接近，所以你无法区分它们。
Yet the paradox is that when you are awake, I go in there and you're sort of sitting up, you're clearly conscious and awake.
然而矛盾的是，当你醒着的时候，我进去，你就坐起来了，你显然是有意识的并且是醒着的。
But yet when you go into REM sleep, you are completely paralyzed.
但当你进入快速眼动睡眠时，你就完全瘫痪了。
And that's, I think that's part of the paradox.
我认为这就是悖论的一部分。
But the paradox really just comes down to two dramatically different conscious states, yet brain activity is dramatically more similar than different.
但这个悖论实际上只是归结为两种截然不同的意识状态，但大脑活动的相似性多于不同性。
And the way I can figure out which of the two you are in is by measuring two other signals, the activity from your eyes and the activity from your muscles.
我可以通过测量另外两个信号来确定您属于这两个信号中的哪一个，即您眼睛的活动和肌肉的活动。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
So when we're awake, we will occasionally have these blinks and we'll have sort of saccades.
所以当我们醒着的时候，我们偶尔会眨眼，也会有眼跳的感觉。
But during REM sleep, you have these really bizarre horizontal shuttling eye movements that occur.
但在快速眼动睡眠期间，你会发生这些非常奇怪的水平眼球运动。
And that's where the name comes from.
这就是这个名字的由来。
Rapid eye movements.
快速眼球运动。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Are they always horizontal?
它们总是水平的吗？
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Mostly they are horizontal.
它们大多是水平的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's interesting.
这很有趣。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
And that's one of the ways that we can differentiate them from other waking eye movement activity, because it's not always ...
这是我们将它们与其他清醒眼动活动区分开来的方法之一，因为它并不总是......
It can be sometimes horizontal, but can it also have diagonal and also vertical in that plane.
它有时可以是水平的，但也可以在该平面上具有对角线和垂直的。
But then the muscle activity is the real dead giveaway.
但肌肉活动才是真正的致命弱点。
Just before you enter REM sleep, your brain stem, which is where the dynamics of non-REM and REM are essentially played out and then expressed upstairs in the cortex and downstairs in the body.
就在您进入快速眼动睡眠之前，您的脑干（非快速眼动睡眠和快速眼动睡眠的动态本质上是在这里发挥作用）的，然后在皮层的上层和身体的下层表达。
When we go into REM sleep, and just a few seconds before that happens, the brain stem sends a signal all the way down the spinal cord, and it communicates with what are called the alpha motor neurons in the spinal cord, which control of voluntary skeletal muscles.
当我们进入快速眼动睡眠时，就在进入快速眼动睡眠之前几秒钟，脑干会向脊髓一路发送信号，并与脊髓中控制随意骨骼肌的所谓阿尔法运动神经元进行通信。
And it's a signal of paralysis.
这是瘫痪的信号。
And when you go into dream sleep, you are locked into a physical incarceration of your own body.
当你进入梦中睡眠时，你就被锁在了自己身体的肉体禁锢中。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Amazing.
太棒了。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
And why would Mother Nature do such a thing?
大自然为何要这么做？
And it's in some ways very simple.
从某些方面来说它非常简单。
The brain paralyzes the body so that the mind can dream safely, because think about how quickly we would've all been popped out of the gene pool.
大脑使身体瘫痪，以便思想可以安全地做梦，因为想想我们会以多快的速度从基因库中消失。
If I think I'm one of the best skydivers, who can just simply fly, and I've had sometimes those dreams too, and I get up on my apartment window and I leap out ...
如果我认为我是最好的跳伞运动员之一，我可以简单地飞翔，有时我也有这样的梦想，我爬上公寓的窗户，跳了出去......
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You're done.
你完成了。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
You're done.
你完成了。
So that's one of the ...
这就是其中之一...
That's part of the paradox of REM sleep, both its brain activity similarity, despite the behavioral state being so different, and this bizarre lockdown of the sort of brain of the body itself.
这是快速眼动睡眠的悖论的一部分，尽管行为状态如此不同，但其大脑活动相似，而且身体本身的大脑这种奇怪的锁定。
Now of course the involuntary muscles, thankfully, aren't paralyzed.
当然，谢天谢地，现在不随意肌并没有瘫痪。
So you keep breathing, your heart keeps beating.
所以你继续呼吸，你的心脏继续跳动。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is this why men have erections during REM sleep and women have vaginal lubrication during sleep?
这就是为什么男性在快速眼动睡眠期间勃起而女性在睡眠期间阴道润滑的原因吗？
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
That's one of the reasons.
这是原因之一。
Part of the other reason, though there, is because of the autonomic activity.
另一个原因虽然存在，但部分是由于自主活动。
So there is a nervous part of our nervous system called the "autonomic nervous system." And it controls many of the automatic behaviors.
因此，我们的神经系统中有一个神经部分，称为“自主神经系统”。它控制着许多自动行为。
And some of those are aspects of our reproductive facilities.
其中一些是我们生殖设施的方面。
During REM sleep, what we later discovered is that you go through these bizarre, what we call "autonomic storms," which sounds dramatic, but it actually is when you measure them that you'll go through periods where your heart rate decelerates and drops, and your blood pressure goes down, and then, utterly randomly, your heart rate accelerates dramatically.
在快速眼动睡眠期间，我们后来发现，你会经历这些奇怪的现象，我们称之为“自主风暴”，这听起来很戏剧性，但实际上，当你测量它们时，你会经历心率减慢和下降、血压下降的时期，然后，完全随机地，你的心率急剧加速。
And what we call the fight-or-flight branch of the autonomic nervous system or the sympathetic nervous system are badly named because it's anything but sympathetic, it's very aggravating.
我们所说的自主神经系统或交感神经系统的战斗或逃跑分支的名字很糟糕，因为它根本不是交感神经，它非常令人恼火。
And that all of a sudden fires up, and then it shuts down again.
突然间，它就燃烧起来，然后又熄灭了。
And it's not in any regular way.
而且这不是以任何常规方式。
And it's when you get those autonomic storms; you get very activated from a physiological perspective; that you can have these erections, and you have vaginal discharge, et cetera-
当你遭遇自主风暴时；从生理角度来看，你会变得非常活跃；你可以勃起，并且有阴道分泌物，等等-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But you're totally paralyzed.
但你已经完全瘫痪了。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
But you are still paralyzed.
但你还是瘫痪了。
There are only two voluntary, two voluntary muscle groups that are spared from the paralysis.
只有两个随意的、两个随意的肌肉群没有瘫痪。
Bizarre.
奇怪的。
One, your extraocular muscles, because if they were paralyzed, you wouldn't be able to have rapid eye movements.
一是眼外肌，因为如果它们瘫痪，你就无法进行快速的眼球运动。
And the other that we later discovered was the inner ear muscle.
我们后来发现的另一个是内耳肌肉。
And we've got no good understanding as to why those two muscles groups are spurred from the paralysis.
我们还没有很好地理解为什么这两个肌肉群会受到瘫痪的刺激。
It may have something to do with cranial nerve, but I don't think it's that ...
可能和脑神经有关，但我不认为是这样……
I think it's perhaps something more sensory related.
我认为这可能与感官更相关。
Some people have argued that the reason the eyeballs are spared from the paralysis is because if your eyeballs are left for long periods of time inactive, you may get things such as oxygen sort of issues in the aqueous or vitreous humor.
有些人认为，眼球之所以不会瘫痪，是因为如果你的眼球长时间不活动，你的房水或玻璃体中可能会出现氧气等问题。
And so the eyeballs have to keep the-
所以眼球必须保持——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The drainage systems of the anterior eye are made to require movement.
前眼的引流系统需要移动。
People with glaucoma have deficits in drainage through the anterior chamber.
青光眼患者的前房引流功能存在缺陷。
But there I'm speculating.
但我在猜测。
I'm also speculating when I ask this: I would imagine that there are states in waking that also resemble slow-wave sleep.
当我问这个问题时，我也在猜测：我会想象清醒时的某些状态也类似于慢波睡眠。
Or rather that there are states that slow-wave sleep also resembles waking states.
或者更确切地说，有些状态慢波睡眠也类似于清醒状态。
You've beautifully illustrated how REM sleep can mimic some of the more active brain states that we achieve in waking.
您精美地阐释了快速眼动睡眠如何模仿我们在清醒时实现的一些更活跃的大脑状态。
What sort of waking state that I might have experienced, or experienced on a daily basis, might look similar to slow-wave sleep, non-REM sleep, if any?
我可能经历过或每天经历过哪种清醒状态，可能看起来类似于慢波睡眠、非快速眼动睡眠（如果有）？
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
It's a genius way of thinking about it, turns the tables.
这是一种天才的思考方式，扭转了局面。
I love it.
我喜欢它。
We almost never see anything like the true ultraslow waves of deep non-REM sleep.
我们几乎从未见过像深度非快速眼动睡眠的真正超慢波那样的东西。
So we spoke about these two stages, non-REM and REM.
所以我们讨论了这两个阶段，非快速眼动阶段和快速眼动阶段。
Non-REM is further subdivided into four separate stages.
非快速眼动睡眠进一步细分为四个单独的阶段。
Stages one through four increasing in their depth of sleep.
第一阶段到第四阶段的睡眠深度不断增加。
So stages three and four, that's what we typically call deep non-REM sleep.
第三阶段和第四阶段，就是我们通常所说的深度非快速眼动睡眠。
Stages one and two light-
第一阶段和第二阶段灯光-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So maybe take me through the arc of a night just so that ...
所以也许带我度过一个夜晚，这样......
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So I put my head down.
于是我低下了头。
Well for you, what time do you normally go to sleep?
那么对于你来说，你通常什么时候睡觉？
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
So I'm usually sort of around about a 10:30 p.m.
所以我通常在晚上 10:30 左右。
guy.
家伙。
And usually I'll naturally wake up sort of a little bit before seven, sometimes before 6:45 or seven.
通常我会在七点之前自然醒来，有时在六点四十五分或七点之前。
I have an alarm set for 7:04 a.m.
我设置了早上 7 点 04 分的闹钟
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You heard it here folks.
你们在这里听到了。
Matt Walker does use an alarm clock.
马特·沃克确实使用闹钟。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
I rarely ...
我很少...
I'm usually-
我通常是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
He doesn't recommend it, but he does use it.
他不推荐它，但他确实使用它。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Yeah.
是的。
I usually-
我通常——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You're human after all.
你毕竟是人类。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Oh.
哦。
I am so human.
我就是这么人性化。
And I've had my sleep issues, and I'd love to speak about that too, but it's only just in the event that, because I like to keep regularity too.
我也有睡眠问题，我也很想谈论这个问题，但仅限于这种情况，因为我也喜欢保持规律。
You've got to keep those two things in balance, and 7:04, just because why not be idiosyncratic?
你必须保持这两件事的平衡，7:04，只是因为为什么不表现得与众不同呢？
I don't know why we always set things on these hard numbers.
我不知道为什么我们总是把事情设定在这些硬数字上。
So when you-
所以当你-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So you go to sleep around 10:30.
所以你在10:30左右就去睡觉。
So using you as an example, because I imagine a number of people go to sleep at different times, but 10:30 is about when I go to sleep, 11 is for me.
所以以你为例，因为我想象很多人在不同的时间睡觉，但是10:30大约是我睡觉的时间，11点是我的时间。
So you go to sleep at 10:30.
所以你10点30分就去睡觉。
So for that first, let's say, three hours of sleep, what does the architecture of that sleep look like as compared to the last three hours of your sleep before morning?
首先，假设三个小时的睡眠，与早晨之前的最后三个小时的睡眠相比，该睡眠的结构是什么样的？
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Yeah.
是的。
So I should note that sort of 10:30 to seven, that's just based on my chronotype and my preferential.
所以我应该注意 10:30 到 7 点，这只是基于我的生物钟类型和我的偏好。
It's different for different people.
对于不同的人来说是不同的。
I'm not suggesting that that's the perfect sweet spot for humanity's sleep.
我并不是说那是人类睡眠的最佳最佳地点。
It's just my-
这只是我的——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But I imagine most people probably go to sleep somewhere between 10 p.m.
但我想大多数人可能会在晚上 10 点到晚上 10 点之间睡觉。
and midnight and most probably-
午夜，最有可能的是——
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
...
...
Between like nine and midnight.
大约九点到午夜之间。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
Between 5:00 a.m.
上午 5:00 之间
and 7:00 a.m., or 5:30 and 7:30.
和上午 7:00，或 5:30 和 7:30。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Yeah.
是的。
At least in, if you look at of first world nations, that's a typical sleep profile.
至少在第一世界国家，这是典型的睡眠状况。
So when I first fall asleep, I'll go into the light stages of non-REM sleep, stages one and two of non-REM, and then I'll start to descend down into the deeper stages of non-REM sleep.
因此，当我第一次入睡时，我将进入非快速眼动睡眠的浅阶段、非快速眼动睡眠的第一阶段和第二阶段，然后我将开始下降到非快速眼动睡眠的更深阶段。
So after about maybe 20 minutes, I'm starting to head down into stage three non-REM, and then into stage four non-REM sleep.
因此，大约 20 分钟后，我开始进入第三阶段非快速眼动睡眠，然后进入第四阶段非快速眼动睡眠。
And as I'm starting to fall asleep, as I've cast off from the, usually with me, murky waters of wakefulness, and I'm in the shallows of sleep stages one and two, my heart rate starts to drop a little bit, and then my brainwave pattern activity starts to slow down.
当我开始入睡时，当我摆脱通常伴随着我的昏暗的清醒状态，并且我处于第一和第二睡眠阶段的浅水时，我的心率开始稍微下降，然后我的脑电波模式活动开始减慢。
Normally, when I'm awake, it's going up and down maybe 20, 30, 40, 50 times a second.
通常，当我醒着的时候，它每秒可能会上下 20、30、40、50 次。
As I'm going into light non-REM sleep, it will slow down to maybe 15, 20 and then really starts to slow down.
当我进入轻度非快速眼动睡眠时，它会减慢到大约 15、20，然后真正开始减慢。
Down to about 10 or eight cycles per second, eight cycle waves per second.
降至每秒约 10 或 8 个周期，即每秒 8 个周期波。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Then as I'm starting to move into stages three and four non-REM sleep, several remarkable things happen.
然后，当我开始进入第三和第四阶段非快速眼动睡眠时，发生了几件值得注意的事情。
All of a sudden my heart rate really does start to drop.
突然之间，我的心率确实开始下降。
And I'll come back to temperature.
我会回到温度。
I'm going to write temperature down because I always forget these things.
我要把温度写下来，因为我总是忘记这些事情。
Now I'm solidly in the foothills of middle age.
现在我已经步入中年了。
So as I'm starting to go into those deeper stages of non-REM sleep, all of a sudden hundreds of thousands of cells in my cortex all decide to fire together, and then they all go silent together.
因此，当我开始进入非快速眼动睡眠的更深阶段时，突然间，我的皮质中数十万个细胞决定一起放电，然后它们一起沉默。
And it's this remarkable physiological coordination of the likes that we just don't see during any other brain state.
这种非凡的生理协调是我们在任何其他大脑状态下都看不到的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's really interesting.
这真的很有趣。
Having recorded from the brains of animals and a little bit from humans, I don't think I've ever seen the entire cortex, or even entire regions of cortex, light up like that.
根据动物大脑和人类大脑的一些记录，我认为我从未见过整个皮层，甚至整个皮层区域，像这样发光。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Yeah.
是的。
It's stunning.
太棒了。
It's almost like this beautiful sort of mantra chant or this sort of ...
这几乎就像这种美丽的咒语或这种......
It's a slow inhale and then a meditative exhale.
这是缓慢的吸气，然后冥想式的呼气。
Inhale, exhale.
吸气，呼气。
And these waves are just enormous in their size.
这些波浪的规模非常巨大。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And the body is capable of movement at this time.
而且这个时候身体已经可以活动了。
There is no paralysis.
没有瘫痪。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
There is no paralysis, but for the most part, muscle tone has also dropped significantly at that point.
没有瘫痪，但在大多数情况下，此时肌张力也显着下降。
And then you will, or I will, then stay there for about another 20 or 30 minutes.
然后你会，或者我会，然后在那里再呆大约20或30分钟。
So now I'm maybe 60 or 70 minutes into my first sleep cycle, and then I'll start to rise back up into stage two non-REM sleep.
所以现在我可能已经进入第一个睡眠周期 60 或 70 分钟，然后我将开始恢复到第二阶段非快速眼动睡眠。
And then after about 80 or so minutes I'll pop up, and I'll have a short REM sleep period.
大约 80 分钟后，我会突然醒来，并有一个短暂的快速眼动睡眠期。
And then back down I go again, down into non-REM, up into REM.
然后再往下走，向下进入非快速眼动睡眠，向上进入快速眼动睡眠。
And you do that reliably, repeatedly.
你可以可靠地、反复地这样做。
And I will be doing that.
我也会这么做。
And I do do that every 90 minutes.
我每 90 分钟就会这样做一次。
At least that's the average for most adults.
至少这是大多数成年人的平均水平。
It's different in different species.
不同的物种有不同的情况。
What changes, to your question, is the ratio of non-REM to REM within that 90-minute cycle as you move across the night.
对于你的问题，变化的是当你在夜间移动时，在 90 分钟周期内非快速眼动与快速眼动的比率。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
And what I mean by this is in the first half of the night, the majority of those 90-minute cycles are comprised of lots of deep non-REM sleep.
我的意思是，在前半夜，90 分钟的周期中的大部分都是由大量的深度非快速眼动睡眠组成的。
That's when I get my stage three and four of deep non-REM sleep.
那时我就进入了深度非快速眼动睡眠的第三阶段和第四阶段。
Once I push through to the second half of the night, now that seesaw balance changes, and instead the majority of those 90-minute cycles are comprised either of this lighter form of non-REM sleep, stage two non-REM sleep, and much more an increasingly more rapid eye movement sleep.
一旦我熬到后半夜，跷跷板平衡就会发生变化，而这 90 分钟的周期中的大部分都是由这种较轻的非快速眼动睡眠、第二阶段非快速眼动睡眠以及越来越快速的眼动睡眠组成。
And the implication that I was sort of speaking about pragmatically is let's say that I have to, and I usually never do early morning flights or red eyes just because I'm a mess if that happens.
我所说的务实的含义是，我必须这样做，而且我通常从不乘坐早班飞机或红眼，因为如果发生这种情况，我就会一团糟。
I'm not suggesting other people shouldn't-
我并不是建议其他人不应该-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm suggesting people not do that.
我建议人们不要这样做。
Every time I've taken a red eye or I've done that, two or three days later, I get some sort of general feeling of malaise.
每次我眼睛发红或者发生这种情况，两三天后，我都会有某种全身不适的感觉。
My brain doesn't work as well.
我的大脑不太好用。
I think red eye should be abolished.
我认为红眼应该被废除。
For the pilots too.
对于飞行员来说也是如此。
I mean ...
我的意思是...
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Oh.
哦。
And we can think about those-
我们可以思考那些——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
And for emergency room, I mean long shifts have been shown to lead to physician-induced errors that lead to a lot of fatalities.
对于急诊室，我的意思是，长时间轮班已被证明会导致医生引起的错误，从而导致大量死亡。
I mean, there are a lot of reasons why staying up too long or being up at the wrong times if you're not adapted to it is just terrible.
我的意思是，有很多原因可以解释为什么熬夜太久或在错误的时间起床（如果你不适应的话）是很糟糕的。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
The data in all of those cases, and particularly physicians too, there was some recent data looking at suicidality, and the rates of suicide in training physicians are far above the norm.
所有这些案例的数据，特别是医生的数据，最近有一些关于自杀率的数据，并且培训医生的自杀率远远高于正常水平。
And I don't suspect that their schedules are helping them.
我不怀疑他们的日程安排对他们有帮助。
I suspect that sleep is a missing part of that explanatory equation.
我怀疑睡眠是这个解释方程中缺失的一部分。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I teach medical students and they're phenomenal.
我教医科学生，他们非常出色。
But yeah.
但是是的。
They're under extremely challenged conditions.
他们面临着极其困难的条件。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
We shouldn't put them under those-
我们不应该把它们放在那些-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No. it's not optimizing performance.
不，它没有优化性能。
I have-
我有-
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Sorry.
抱歉。
I was-
我当时——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, no, no. This is important.
不，不，不。这很重要。
It's an important digression of ...
这是一个重要的题外话......
I have one question, which is you're saying that as across the night, a greater percentage of these 90-minute cycles are going to be occupied by REM sleep as you progress through the night.
我有一个问题，你的意思是，随着整个晚上的进行，这些 90 分钟周期中的更大比例将被快速眼动睡眠占据。
I'm aware that based on work that you've done and from your public education efforts and others that we have so-called circadian forces, and we have other forces that are driving when we sleep and when we want to sleep, et cetera.
我知道，根据您所做的工作以及您的公共教育工作和其他努力，我们有所谓的昼夜节律力量，还有其他力量在我们睡觉时和我们想睡觉时驱动，等等。
Without going into the details of those, I have a simple question.
无需详细讨论这些细节，我有一个简单的问题。
The experiment is the following.
实验如下。
Let's say, God forbid, you are prevented from going to sleep at your normal time, and you stay up for the four hours or five hours that normally you would be in predominantly slow wave sleep.
假设，上帝保佑，您无法在正常时间入睡，并且您熬夜了四到五个小时，而通常您主要处于慢波睡眠状态。
If let's say, you finally get to lie down at 3:00 a.m., a time when normally your sleep would be occupied mostly by rapid eye movement sleep.
假设您终于在凌晨 3:00 躺下，通常情况下您的睡眠大部分时间都被快速眼动睡眠占据。
Will you experience a greater percentage of rapid eye movement sleep because of these so-called circadian forces, meaning that's what's appropriate for that time?
由于这些所谓的昼夜节律力量，您会经历更大比例的快速眼动睡眠吗？这意味着这就是适合那个时间的睡眠？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or will your system need to start at the beginning of the race that we're, as I'm referring to it that we're calling sleep?
或者您的系统是否需要在比赛开始时启动，正如我所说的，我们称之为睡眠？
If that's not clear to anybody, basically what I'm asking is if you are forced to skip the slow wave sleep part of the night, will your system leap into rapid eye movement sleep?
如果任何人都不清楚这一点，基本上我要问的是，如果您被迫跳过晚上的慢波睡眠部分，您的系统会跳入快速眼动睡眠吗？
Or does it have to start at the beginning and get slow wave sleep first?
还是必须从头开始，先进入慢波睡眠？
In other words, does one sleep state drive the entry to the next sleep state?
换句话说，一个睡眠状态是否会驱动进入下一个睡眠状态？
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Great question.
很好的问题。
So there is some degree of reciprocity between the sleep state.
所以睡眠状态之间存在一定程度的交互作用。
I should note that when we drive one of those up, we often but not always see a change in the other.
我应该指出的是，当我们推动其中一个时，我们经常但并不总是看到另一个发生变化。
There are some pharmacologists that have shown an independence to that, and we've also played around with things like temperature.
有些药理学家已经表现出对此的独立性，我们也尝试过温度等因素。
And sometimes you can nudge one and not seem to upset or perturb the other.
有时你可以轻推一个人，但似乎不会让另一个人感到不安或不安。
But to your, I think, lovely point, the answer is it's a mix, but it's mostly the latter.
但我认为，对于你可爱的一点来说，答案是它是一个混合体，但主要是后者。
Meaning you will mostly go into your REM sleep phases and be significantly deficient in your deep sleep.
这意味着您大部分时间都会进入快速眼动睡眠阶段，并且深度睡眠明显不足。
So just because I start my sleep cycle at 3:00 a.m.
因为我的睡眠周期是在凌晨 3:00 开始的。
rather than at 10:30 p.m., it doesn't mean that my brain just says, "Well, I've got a program and I'm just going to run the program.
而不是在晚上 10:30，这并不意味着我的大脑只是说：“好吧，我有一个程序，我将运行该程序。
And the way the program runs is that we always start with a first couple of hours of deep sleep.
程序的运行方式是我们总是从最初几个小时的深度睡眠开始。
So we're just going to begin act number one, scene one." It doesn't do that.
所以我们要开始第一幕、第一场。”它不会那样做。
Now I will get some deep sleep to begin with.
现在我要开始深度睡眠了。
And part of that is just because of how sleep works based on how long I've been awake.
部分原因是睡眠的运作方式取决于我醒着的时间。
Longer I'm awake, there is a significantly greater pressure for deep sleep.
我醒着的时间越长，深度睡眠的压力就会明显越大。
But we actually use exactly what you just described as an experimental technique, to selectively deprive people of one of those stages of sleep or the other.
但我们实际上正是使用了你刚才所描述的一种实验技术，有选择地剥夺人们的睡眠阶段之一或另一个阶段。
So we will do first half of the night deprivation, and then let you sleep the second half.
所以我们会先让你前半夜不睡觉，然后让你后半夜睡觉。
So that means that you will be mostly deep sleep-deprived and you will still get mostly all of your REM sleep.
因此，这意味着您将大部分处于深度睡眠不足状态，但您仍将获得大部分快速眼动睡眠。
And then we switch it so you only get your first four hours, which means you will mostly get deep non-REM sleep, but you will get almost no REM sleep.
然后我们将其更改为您只获得前四个小时，这意味着您将大部分获得深度非快速眼动睡眠，但您几乎不会获得快速眼动睡眠。
So in both of those groups, they've both had four hours of sleep.
因此，在这两个组中，他们都睡了四个小时。
So the difference between them in terms of an experimental outcome is not the sleep time, because they've both slept for the same amount.
因此，他们之间的实验结果之间的差异不是睡眠时间，因为他们的睡眠时间相同。
It's the contribution of those different stages.
这是不同阶段的贡献。
Now we actually have more elegant methods for sort of selectively going in there and scooping out different stages of sleep.
现在我们实际上有了更优雅的方法来有选择地进入那里并找出不同的睡眠阶段。
But that's the way we used to do it old school, was just using this timing difference.
但这就是我们过去的做法，只是利用这种时间差异。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And who suffers more, those that lack the early phase or those that lack the later phase of the night sleep?
缺乏早期睡眠的人和缺乏夜间睡眠后期的人，谁的痛苦更大？
In other words, if I have to sleep only four hours, for whatever reason, am I better off getting the early part of the night sleep or the second half of the night's sleep?
换句话说，如果我因为某种原因只能睡四个小时，那么我是早睡还是晚睡更好？
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Depends on what the outcome measure is.
取决于结果衡量标准是什么。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So that gets right to the differences between slow wave sleep and REM.
这就是慢波睡眠和快速眼动睡眠之间的区别。
I was probably misinformed, but my understanding, a very crude understanding, I should say before-
我可能被误导了，但我的理解，非常粗略的理解，我应该先说——
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
I very much doubt it, au contraire with someone like you.
我非常怀疑这一点，与你这样的人相反。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Which is that ...
那是哪...
Very nice of you.
你真好。
But the first part of the night, the slow wave sleep is restorative to the musculature, to motor learning, and that the dream content tends to be less emotional.
但夜晚的前半部分，慢波睡眠可以恢复肌肉组织和运动学习，而且梦的内容往往不那么情绪化。
The second half of the night being more emotional dreams and sort of the unpairing of the emotional load of our previous day and other experiences.
后半夜是更多情绪化的梦，以及我们前一天和其他经历的情绪负荷的脱节。
So in other words, if I were to deprive myself of REM, I would be hyperemotional, maybe not as settled with the kind of experiences of my life.
换句话说，如果我剥夺自己的快速眼动睡眠，我就会变得情绪化，也许对我生活中的经历不太满意。
Whereas if I deprived myself of slow wave sleep, I would feel a more physical malaise.
然而，如果我剥夺自己的慢波睡眠，我会感到更身体不适。
Is that correct or is that far too simple?
这是正确的还是太简单了？
And if it is too simple, please tell me where I'm wrong.
如果它太简单，请告诉我哪里错了。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
No, I think much of that is correct, and it's sort of that plus.
不，我认为其中大部分是正确的，而且这是一个优点。
So for example, during deep non-REM sleep, that's where we get this, it's almost a form of natural blood pressure medication.
例如，在深度非快速眼动睡眠期间，这就是我们得到的，它几乎是一种天然的血压药物。
And so when I take that away from you, the next day, we're usually going to see autonomic dysfunction.
因此，当我把它从你身边拿走时，第二天，我们通常会看到自主神经功能障碍。
We're usually going to see abnormalities and heart rate, blood pressure.
我们通常会看到异常情况以及心率、血压。
We also know that during deep non-REM sleep that there is a certain control of specific hormones.
我们还知道，在深度非快速眼动睡眠期间，特定激素受到一定的控制。
For example, we know that the insulin regulation of, sort of, metabolism, meaning how will you look from a regulated blood sugar perspective versus dysregulated prediabetic look of profile.
例如，我们知道胰岛素对新陈代谢的调节，这意味着从血糖调节的角度来看，与糖尿病前期失调的外观相比，你会是什么样子。
That's where deep sleep seems to matter.
这就是深度睡眠似乎很重要的地方。
We selectively deprive you of that.
我们选择性地剥夺了你的权利。
We can see-
我们可以看到——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Growth hormone?
生长激素？
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Growth hormone is different, actually.
事实上，生长激素是不同的。
So that's a beautiful demonstration where growth hormones seems to be more REM sleep dependent, and that's why we can come onto the effects of alcohol.
这是一个很好的证明，生长激素似乎更依赖于快速眼动睡眠，这就是为什么我们可以了解酒精的影响。
And there's some really impressive, frightening data on alcohol and its disruption of sleep.
关于酒精及其对睡眠的干扰，有一些令人印象深刻、令人恐惧的数据。
But then we also know testosterone.
但我们也知道睾酮。
Peak levels of testosterone happen during REM sleep.
睾丸激素的峰值水平发生在快速眼动睡眠期间。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So the second half of the night.
于是后半夜。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Which is the second half of the night.
这是后半夜。
So it really just means that your profile of mental and physical dysfunction will be different under both of those conditions.
所以这实际上只是意味着在这两种情况下你的精神和身体功能障碍的情况会有所不同。
Which one would you prefer?
您更喜欢哪一个？
I would prefer neither of them.
我不喜欢他们两个。
And it really depends on what you're trying to optimize for.
这实际上取决于您想要优化的内容。
So it's just so ...
所以这只是如此...
Sleep is just so pluripotent.
睡眠是如此多能。
It's so physiologically systemic that it's almost impossible not to undergo one of those two things, just deep sleep deprivation or just REM sleep deprivation, and not show a profile that you would really prefer to avoid.
它在生理上是如此系统化，以至于几乎不可能不经历这两件事之一，即深度睡眠剥夺或快速眼动睡眠剥夺，并且不表现出您真正希望避免的情况。
And that's the reason, from an evolutionary standpoint, that we've preserved those stages of sleep.
从进化的角度来看，这就是我们保留这些睡眠阶段的原因。
I mean, sleep is just so idiotic from an evolutionary perspective.
我的意思是，从进化的角度来看，睡眠实在是太愚蠢了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or maybe waking is idiotic.
或者也许醒来是愚蠢的。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Or waking is ...
或者醒来是...
Well, yeah.
嗯，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Based on your previous idea-
根据你之前的想法——
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Who have you been talking to?
你一直在和谁说话？
I think that comment is very specific to me.
我认为这个评论对我来说非常具体。
Yeah.
是的。
I am normally always an idiot when waking.
我通常醒着的时候总是一个白痴。
But I think this idea that sleep is so profoundly detrimental to us, if you were to take it at face value, you're not finding a mate, you're not reproducing, you're not foraging for food, you're not caring for your young and worst of all, you're vulnerable to predation on any one of those grounds.
但我认为睡眠对我们来说是非常有害的，如果你从表面上看，你就找不到伴侣，你就不能繁殖，你不能觅食，你不能照顾你的孩子，最糟糕的是，你很容易因为这些原因而受到掠食。
Sleep probably should have been selected against, but it wasn't.
睡眠可能应该被选择反对，但事实并非如此。
Sleep has fought its way through heroically, every step along the evolutionary path, and therefore every sleep stage has also survived, as best we can tell.
睡眠在进化道路上的每一步都英勇地奋勇前进，因此，据我们所知，每个睡眠阶段也都得以幸存。
What that means is that those are nonnegotiable.
这意味着这些是不容谈判的。
If Mother Nature had found a way to even just sort thin some of that sleep from us, there would've been fast, I'm sure, evolutionary benefits, but it looks as though she hasn't.
如果大自然母亲找到了一种方法，哪怕只是从我们身上分走一些睡眠，我相信，很快就会给进化带来好处，但看起来她没有。
And I'm usually in favor of her wisdom after 3.6 million years.
我通常会赞成她 360 万年后的智慧。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
It's incredible.
太不可思议了。
I want to introduce another gedankenexperiment, another thought experiment.
我想介绍另一个gedanken实验，另一个思想实验。
So in this arc of the night, slow wave sleep predominates early in the night and then REM sleep.
因此，在夜间的这段时间内，慢波睡眠在夜间早些时候占主导地位，然后是快速眼动睡眠。
There's a scenario that many people, including myself, experience on a regular basis, which is they go to sleep, sleeping just fine — three, four hours into it, they wake up.
很多人，包括我自己，都会经常经历这样一种情况，那就是他们去睡觉，睡得很好——三四个小时后，他们就醒了。
They wake up, for whatever reason, maybe there was a noise, maybe the temperature isn't right.
他们会因为某种原因醒来，也许有噪音，也许温度不合适。
We will certainly talk about sleep hygiene, et cetera.
我们当然会谈论睡眠卫生等等。
They get up, they go to the restroom, they might flip on the lights, they might not, they'll get back in bed, hopefully they're not picking up their phone and starting to browse and wake up the brain through various mechanisms, light and cognitive stimulation, et cetera.
他们起床，去洗手间，他们可能会打开灯，也可能不会，他们会回到床上，希望他们不会拿起手机，开始通过各种机制、光和认知刺激等浏览和唤醒大脑。
They go back to sleep.
他们回去睡觉了。
Let's say after about 10, 15 minutes, they're able to fall back asleep, and then they sleep till their more typical wake time.
假设大约 10、15 分钟后，他们能够重新入睡，然后他们会一直睡到更典型的醒来时间。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
How detrimental is that wake-up episode or event in terms of longevity, learning, et cetera?
就寿命、学习等而言，唤醒事件或事件有多大危害？
I would love to sleep the entire night through every night, but most nights I don't.
我很想每天晚上都能睡整夜，但大多数晚上我都睡不着。
And yet I feel pretty good throughout the day, some days better than others.
但我一整天都感觉很好，有些日子比其他日子更好。
So if you were to kind of evaluate that waking episode and compare it to sleeping the whole night through, what are your thoughts on that?
因此，如果您要评估一下醒着的那一幕，并将其与整晚的睡眠进行比较，您对此有何看法？
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
So I think if you are waking up sort of frequently as you're describing, I would probably get your estate in order because my guess is within the next year you're going to be done for ...
所以我想，如果你像你所描述的那样经常醒来，我可能会整理你的财产，因为我的猜测是明年你就会完蛋了......
No, I'm kidding you.
不，我在开玩笑。
Absolutely kidding you.
绝对是在跟你开玩笑。
It is perfectly natural and normal, particularly as we progress with age.
这是完全自然和正常的，尤其是随着年龄的增长。
Children tend to have typically more continuous sleep.
儿童通常有更连续的睡眠。
Now, it's not that they aren't waking up for brief periods of time.
现在，并不是说他们不会在短时间内醒来。
They are.
他们是。
And in fact, we all do.
事实上，我们都这样做。
When we come out the other end of our sleep cycle, at the end of our REM sleep period of the 90-minute cycle, almost everybody wakes up, and we make a postural movement.
当我们进入睡眠周期的另一端时，即 90 分钟周期的快速眼动睡眠期结束时，几乎每个人都会醒来，我们会做出姿势运动。
We turn over because we've been paralyzed for so long.
我们翻身是因为我们已经瘫痪太久了。
And the body will also like to shift.
而且身体也会喜欢转移。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do we ever look around, do we ever open our eyes and look around?
我们是否曾环顾四周，是否曾睁开眼睛环顾四周？
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Sometimes people will open their eyes, but usually it's only for a brief period of time, and they usually never commit those awakenings to memory.
有时人们会睁开眼睛，但通常只会持续很短的一段时间，而且他们通常不会将这些觉醒记入记忆中。
Your situation, and it's my situation as well; I usually, now at the stage of life, I don't sleep through the night.
你的情况，也是我的情况；我通常在人生的这个阶段，整晚都睡不着觉。
I'll usually have a bathroom break, and then I'll come back.
我通常会去洗手间休息，然后再回来。
That's perfectly normal.
这是完全正常的。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
That's perfectly normal.
这是完全正常的。
We tend to forget that in sleep science, we think of sleep efficiency, so of the total amount of time that you're in bed, how much of that percent time is spent asleep?
我们往往会忘记，在睡眠科学中，我们考虑的是睡眠效率，因此在您躺在床上的总时间中，有多少百分比的时间花在睡眠上？
And we usually look to numbers that are above 85% or more as a healthy sleep efficiency.
我们通常将高于 85% 或更高的数字视为健康的睡眠效率。
So if you were to think about me going to bed, and I spend, let's say eight-and-a-quarter, eight-and-a-half hours of time in bed with a normal, healthy sleep efficiency, I still may be only sleeping a total of seven-and-a-half hours or seven-and-three-quarter hours, meaning that I'm going to be awake in total, not in one long bout, but I'm going to be awake for upwards of 30 minutes net some time.
因此，如果你考虑一下我上床睡觉的情况，假设我在床上花费了八个四分之一小时、八个半小时的时间，并且保持正常、健康的睡眠效率，那么我仍然可能只睡了总共七个半小时或七个又四分之三小时，这意味着我将完全清醒，而不是长时间清醒，但有时我会清醒超过 30 分钟。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Sometimes that can be after a 10-minute dalliance after having gone to the bathroom, and I'm just gradually drifting back off again.
有时，这可能是在上完厕所后调情了 10 分钟之后，我就又慢慢地又睡着了。
Other times it will just be for a couple of minutes, and most of those you don't commit.
其他时候只会持续几分钟，而且大多数情况下你都不会承诺。
So I think we need to stop, we don't need to get too worried about periods of time awake just because we're not sleeping throughout the night.
所以我认为我们需要停下来，我们不需要因为我们整晚都没有睡觉而过于担心清醒的时间。
I would love to do that too, and I remember when that used to happen, and it still happens occasionally.
我也很想这样做，我记得以前曾经发生过这种事，现在仍然偶尔会发生。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Every once in a while.
每隔一段时间。
It feels great when it does happen.
当它真的发生时感觉很棒。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
And it's a lovely thing-
这是一件可爱的事情——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's a surprise, right?
这是一个惊喜，对吧？
Like, oh my goodness, I slept through the whole night.
就像，天哪，我睡了一整晚。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
It is now a surprise.
现在是一个惊喜。
Yeah, it is a surprise.
是的，这是一个惊喜。
But for the most part, I think we can be more relaxed about that.
但在大多数情况下，我认为我们可以对此更加放松。
Where we have to be a bit more attentive though is if you are spending long periods of time not being able to get back to sleep, and usually we define that by saying if it's been 20, 25 minutes, normally that's a time when we would really say, okay, let's explore this.
但我们必须更加注意的是，如果您花了很长一段时间无法重新入睡，通常我们会通过说如果已经过了 20、25 分钟来定义这一点，通常我们会说，好吧，让我们探讨一下这个问题。
What's going on?
这是怎么回事？
Let's see what's happening.
让我们看看发生了什么。
The other thing is if it's happening very frequently, so even if you're not awake for 25-minute stretches, but you're finding yourself waking up and being consciously aware that you've woken up for maybe six, seven, or eight times throughout the night, and your sleep is very, what we call fragmented.
另一件事是，如果这种情况发生得非常频繁，那么即使你没有连续 25 分钟醒来，但你会发现自己醒来，并且有意识地意识到你整个晚上可能醒了六次、七次或八次，而且你的睡眠非常，我们称之为碎片化。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
The great science of sleep in the past five or 10 years has been, yes, quantity is important, but quality is just as important, and you can't have one without the other in terms of a good, beneficial next-day outcome.
过去五年或十年间关于睡眠的伟大科学一直是，是的，数量很重要，但质量也同样重要，而且就第二天良好、有益的结果而言，缺一不可。
You can't just get four hours of sleep, but brilliant quality of sleep, and be unimpaired, nor can you get eight hours of sleep but have very poor quality of sleep and be unimpaired the next day.
你不可能只睡四个小时，但睡眠质量很好，而且不受影响；也不可能只睡八小时，但睡眠质量很差，第二天也不受影响。
So that's why I just sort of want to asterisk this idea of let's not get too worried about waking up and having some time awake.
所以这就是为什么我想在这个想法上加星号，让我们不要太担心醒来和清醒的时间。
That's perfectly normal and natural.
这是完全正常和自然的。
But if it's happening very frequently throughout the night, or those periods of time or long stretches of time, upwards of 25 minutes, then let's look into it.
但如果它在整个晚上、或者那些时间段或很长一段时间（超过 25 分钟）非常频繁地发生，那么让我们调查一下。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, I can assure you you just helped a lot of people feel better about this waking-up episode that I and many other people experience.
好吧，我可以向你保证，你刚刚帮助很多人对我和其他许多人经历的这个觉醒事件感觉更好。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
I hope so because I think it's really important that we ...
我希望如此，因为我认为我们...非常重要
I think I've been desperately guilty of perhaps, early on, being too puritanical about sleep, and I've retrospected and I've tried to explore why this was the case.
我想我可能很早就对睡眠过于严格感到内疚，我回顾并试图探索为什么会出现这种情况。
It was almost sleep or else, dot, dot, dot.
快要睡觉了，否则，点，点，点。
And at the time when I was starting to write the book, which was back in 2016, sleep was still a neglected stepsister in the health conversation of today, and I could see all of the-
当我开始写这本书时，也就是 2016 年，睡眠在当今的健康对话中仍然是一个被忽视的继姐妹，我可以看到所有的——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That has certainly changed.
这肯定已经改变了。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
And it's changing, and not because of my efforts, but because of all of my colleagues-
它正在改变，不是因为我的努力，而是因为我所有的同事——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, I would say ...
不，我想说...
Well, it's great that you give attribution to other people involved in it, of course it's a big field, but I think you've done a great service by cuing people to the importance of this state, not just for avoiding troublesome outcomes, but also for optimizing their waking state.
嗯，很高兴你能将归因归因于其他参与其中的人，当然这是一个很大的领域，但我认为你通过提示人们这种状态的重要性做出了很大的贡献，不仅是为了避免麻烦的结果，也是为了优化他们的清醒状态。
I view sleep as this period that feels good, but we're not aware of how it feels when we're in it, necessarily.
我认为睡眠是一个感觉良好的时期，但我们不一定知道我们处于睡眠状态时的感觉如何。
It has tremendous benefits when you're doing it well, so to speak, and it has tremendous deficits when we're not.
可以这么说，当你做得好时，它会带来巨大的好处，而当我们做得不好时，它就会带来巨大的缺陷。
And I think it was an important thing for you to do, to cue people to this issue, and I would say mission accomplished, that people are aware of the need for sleep.
我认为你要做的一件重要的事情是提醒人们注意这个问题，我想说任务完成了，人们意识到了睡眠的需要。
I think that knowing that waking up in the middle of the night is normal, provided it's not too frequent, is great and will also help people who may have been overly concerned about that.
我认为，知道半夜醒来是正常的，只要不是太频繁，就很好，并且也会帮助那些可能过度担心这一点的人。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I do want to use this as an opportunity to raise something about the so-called Uberman schedule.
我确实想借此机会提出一些关于所谓的 Uberman 时间表的问题。
Not to be confused with the Huberman schedule.
不要与休伯曼时间表混淆。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Huberman?
休伯曼？
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Fortunately, no one has confused those yet.
幸运的是，目前还没有人混淆它们。
Some years ago, there was a discussion about the so-called Uberman schedule, meaning the superman schedule, so that's Huberman without an H, which I have nothing to do with.
几年前，有一个关于所谓Uberman Schedule的讨论，意思是超人时间表，所以就是没有H的Huberman，与我无关。
If you read your Nietzsche, this will have a subtext.
如果你读过你的尼采，这会有一个潜台词。
But regardless, the Uberman schedule, as I understand, is one in which the person elects to sleep in 90-minute bouts spread throughout the day and night in an attempt to get more productivity and/or reduce their overall sleep need.
但无论如何，据我了解，Uberman 的睡眠计划是人们选择在白天和晚上进行 90 分钟的睡眠，以提高工作效率和/或减少总体睡眠需求。
There was a paper published recently that explored whether or not this is good or bad for us.
最近发表了一篇论文，探讨这对我们是好是坏。
Maybe you can just give us the take home-message on that?
也许你可以给我们一些重要信息？
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Yeah, so these Uberman-like schedules, and there's lots of different forms of that, they try to essentially pie chart the 24-hour period into short bouts of sleep, with some shorter or, well, slightly longer periods of wakefulness, then short bouts of sleep, then wakefulness.
是的，所以这些类似 Uberman 的时间表，有很多不同的形式，他们试图将 24 小时的时间基本上用饼图划分为短暂的睡眠时间，然后是一些较短或稍长的清醒时间，然后是短暂的睡眠时间，然后是清醒时间。
I sort of made, I think, a quip — it's almost like you're sleeping like a baby, because that's the way that babies will sleep-
我想，我有点俏皮——这几乎就像你睡得像个婴儿一样，因为这就是婴儿睡觉的方式——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In 90-minute naps, yeah.
90 分钟的小睡，是的。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
...
...
that they all have these brief naps, then they're awake, then they're asleep, then they're awake, and to the chagrin of parents, across the night, it's basically the same.
他们都会有短暂的小睡，然后醒来，然后睡着，然后醒来，令父母懊恼的是，整个晚上，情况基本上都是一样的。
They're awake, they're asleep, they're awake, they're asleep.
他们醒着，他们睡着，他们醒着，他们睡着。
And that's more the schedule that these types of protocols have suggested.
这就是这些类型的协议所建议的时间表。
And there was a really great comprehensive review that found not only that they weren't necessarily helpful, but they were actually really quite detrimental, and on almost every performance metric, whether it be task performance, whether it be physiological outcome measures, whether it even be the quality of the sleep that they were having when they were trying to get it.
有一项非常全面的审查发现，它们不仅不一定有帮助，而且实际上非常有害，而且在几乎所有绩效指标上，无论是任务绩效，无论是生理结果指标，甚至是他们试图获得睡眠时的睡眠质量。
All of those were in a downward direction.
所有这些都处于向下的方向。
And it's not surprising if you look at the way that your physiology is programmed, if you look at the way your circadian rhythm is programmed, none of that screams to us that we should be sleeping in that way.
如果你看看你的生理机能的编程方式，如果你看看你的昼夜节律的编程方式，这并不奇怪，所有这些都不会告诉我们我们应该以这种方式睡觉。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, I'm chuckling because we always hear sleep like a baby.
嗯，我笑了，因为我们总是听到像婴儿一样的睡眠。
This is how babies sleep, and I would say, don't sleep like a baby.
这就是婴儿的睡眠方式，我想说的是，不要睡得像婴儿一样。
Sleep like an adult.
像成年人一样睡觉。
Be an adult.
成为一个成年人。
Get your solid eight hours.
充实的八小时。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Yeah, it's Billy Crystal's line, who's a long-standing, suffering insomniac.
是的，这是比利·克里斯托（Billy Crystal）的台词，他是一个长期失眠的人。
He says, "I sleep like a baby.
他说：“我睡得像个婴儿。
I'm awake every 20 minutes." And I think this is another one of those demonstrations that when you fight biology, you normally lose, and the way you know you've lost is disease, sickness and impairment.
我每 20 分钟就会醒一次。”我认为这是另一个证明，当你与生物学作斗争时，你通常会失败，而你知道自己失败的方式是疾病、疾病和损伤。
And I think if you sleep in accordance with the natural biological edict that we've all been given, life tends to be both of a higher quality and a longer duration.
我认为，如果你按照我们所有人都被赋予的自然生物法则来睡眠，那么生活往往会具有更高的质量和更长的寿命。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, I agree.
是的，我同意。
And along those lines, as a vision scientist, I've been very excited by the work on these non-image forming cells in the eye, the so-called melanopsin cells that inform the brain about circadian time of day.
沿着这些思路，作为一名视觉科学家，我对眼睛中这些非图像形成细胞的工作感到非常兴奋，这些细胞是所谓的黑视蛋白细胞，可以告知大脑一天中的昼夜节律时间。
And I'm a big proponent of people getting some sunlight, ideally sunlight, but other forms of bright light into their eyes early in the day and when they want to be awake, essentially during the phase of their 24-hour circadian cycle when temperature is rising, and then starting to get less light in their eyes as our temperature is going down later in the day and in the evening.
我非常支持人们在一天的早些时候和他们想醒来的时候接受一些阳光，最好是阳光，但其他形式的强光进入他们的眼睛，主要是在他们24小时昼夜节律周期的阶段，当气温上升时，然后随着我们的体温在白天晚些时候和晚上下降，他们的眼睛开始接受更少的光线。
Are there any adjustments to that general theme that you'd like to add in any way?
您是否想以任何方式添加对总体主题的任何调整？
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
No, I think that's exactly what we recommend right now, which is try to get at least 30 to 40 minutes of exposure to some kind of natural daylight.
不，我认为这正是我们现在建议的，即尝试至少 30 到 40 分钟暴露在某种自然光下。
Now, there may be parts of the world where it's-
现在，世界上的某些地方可能——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You're from a rather cloudy part of the world.
你来自世界上一个相当多云的地方。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
I am from Liverpool, England, and the northwest of England is not known for its beach resorts and fine weather.
我来自英国利物浦，英格兰西北部并不以海滩度假村和宜人的天气而闻名。
I remember I went back home for a trip when I'd first been out in California, and I thought, why is the sky so low?
我记得第一次去加州旅行时，我回家时就想，为什么天这么低？
It's just constantly ...
只是不断地...
We joke that in the U.K., we usually have nine months of bad weather and then three months of winter, and that's your entire year in terms of a climate.
我们开玩笑说，在英国，我们通常有九个月的恶劣天气，然后是三个月的冬天，从气候角度来说，这就是你的一整年。
But to come to your point, you're exactly right.
但就你的观点而言，你是完全正确的。
Try to get that daylight.
尝试获得那一天的阳光。
Now, it can be working next to a window, and you're getting that natural sunlight, but that natural sunlight is, even on a cloudy day in England, is usually far more potent than anything that you'll get from indoor lighting, despite you thinking, sort of from a perceptionwise, maybe they're much closer than I would think.
现在，它可以在窗户旁边工作，你会得到自然阳光，但即使在英国的阴天，自然阳光通常也比你从室内照明中得到的任何东西都要有效得多，尽管你认为，从感知角度来看，也许它们比我想象的要近得多。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, I've been, sorry to interrupt, I've been a big proponent of, there's an app called Light Meter, which will, it's a free app, I have nothing to do with it, that will allow you to get a pretty decent measurement of the amount of light energy coming toward you.
是的，很抱歉打断一下，我一直是一个名为 Light Meter 的应用程序的大力支持者，它是一个免费的应用程序，我与它无关，它可以让你对射向你的光能量进行相当不错的测量。
And if you hold it up to a cloudy morning where you don't think it's very bright out, kind of a dismal day, you'll notice that there'll be 1,000, 2,000, even 5,000 lux, lux just being a measure of brightness, of course.
如果你把它举到一个阴天的早晨，你认为外面不太亮，有点阴沉的一天，你会注意到会有 1,000、2,000，甚至 5,000 勒克斯，当然，勒克斯只是亮度的度量。
And then you can point the same light meter toward an indoor light that seems very bright and very intense, and it'll say 500 lux, and you realize that the intensity as we gauge it perceptually is not really what the system is receiving.
然后，您可以将同一个测光表指向看起来非常明亮且非常强烈的室内光线，它会显示 500 勒克斯，您会意识到我们感知到的强度并不是系统真正接收到的强度。
So outdoor light is key.
所以室外光线是关键。
How do you get this natural stimulation, or I should just say light stimulation early in the day?
你如何获得这种自然刺激，或者我应该说是在一天的早些时候进行光刺激？
What does Matt Walker do to get this light stimulation?
马特·沃克做了什么来获得这种光刺激？
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
I am no poster child, but usually I will ...
我不是典型的孩子，但通常我会......
if I'm working, I usually work out most days, and I shopped around and I found a gym that has huge amounts of window exposure facing to the east.
如果我在工作，我通常大部分时间都在锻炼，我四处逛逛，发现一家健身房有大量面向东方的窗户。
This is going to sound so ridiculous.
这听起来很荒谬。
Matt Walker chooses a gym on the basis of the solar input, so he can correct his circadian-
马特·沃克根据太阳能输入选择健身房，这样他就可以纠正他的昼夜节律-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I love it.
我喜欢它。
There are a lot of criteria for selecting gyms; this one is actually grounded in physiology and biology, and so-
选择健身房有很多标准；这实际上是基于生理学和生物学的，所以-
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
And selfishness about my own sleep.
以及对自己睡眠的自私。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, that's great.
不，那太好了。
So you get your exercise and your light stimulation simultaneously?
那么您可以同时进行锻炼和光刺激吗？
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
That's right.
没错。
Yep, yep.
是的，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And so you're stacking cues for wakefulness early in the day?
所以你在一大早就堆砌起床的线索？
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Exactly.
正是如此。
So both exercise and daylight are wonderful cues for circadian rhythm alignment, and also circadian rhythm reset each day, and so I will use both exercise ...
因此，运动和日光都是调整昼夜节律的绝佳线索，而且昼夜节律每天都会重置，所以我将同时使用这两种运动......
I mean, I'm neither a strong morning type or a strong evening type, and my preference to exercise is probably sometime in the middle of the day, probably somewhere around 1:00 a.
我的意思是，我既不是一个精力充沛的早晨型人，也不是一个精力充沛的晚上型人，而且我最喜欢锻炼的时间可能是在一天中的某个时间，可能是凌晨 1:00 左右的某个时间。
...
...
1:00 p.m., sorry, not 1:00 a.m.
下午 1:00，抱歉，不是凌晨 1:00
But I'm usually working out probably around the sort of 7:45, 8:00 a.m.
但我通常大约在早上 7:45、8:00 左右锻炼。
time.
时间。
That's usually when I'll start my workout.
这通常是我开始锻炼的时间。
And there I'll start with cardio, with spin bike, facing a window, and luckily, for the most part here in California, there's usually sunlight coming through.
在那里我将从有氧运动开始，骑动感单车，面向窗户，幸运的是，在加利福尼亚州的大部分时间里，通常都有阳光照射进来。
But it doesn't matter to me, because just as you said, even when it's a cloudy day, that lux coming through of light, the intensity, is splendid.
但这对我来说并不重要，因为正如你所说，即使是阴天，透过光线的勒克斯、强度，都是辉煌的。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
So I would prefer to favor my exercise, just because for efficiency too, I want to get also working on the day, I'll try to match my exercise more with my circadian light exposure than I would probably if I'm going to, do I really want to crush a workout or do I want to just make sure it's a good workout.
所以我更喜欢锻炼，只是因为为了提高效率，我也想在当天工作，我会尝试让我的锻炼与我的昼夜节律光照相匹配，而不是我可能会这样做，我真的想粉碎锻炼还是只想确保这是一次良好的锻炼。
I would prefer to work out at a different time.
我更愿意在不同的时间锻炼。
But I like that, because of the daylight, and we can speak about exercise timing at some point, because there's a lot of discussion around that — when is the right time to exercise during sleep, and we can sort of bust some myths there too.
但我喜欢这样，因为有白天，我们可以在某个时候谈论锻炼时间，因为围绕这个问题有很多讨论——什么时候是睡眠期间锻炼的正确时间，我们也可以打破一些神话。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
So I think you're spot-on with the suggestion.
所以我认为你的建议是正确的。
Get some morning daylight, try to get that exposure, usually at least 30 to 40 minutes.
获得一些早晨的日光，尽量接触阳光，通常至少 30 到 40 分钟。
There was some great work recently coming out in the occupational health domain where they moved workers from offices that were just facing walls and didn't have any exposure to natural daylight, and then they did a time period during that study where they actually were in front of a window and working, and they measured their sleep, and their sleep time and their sleep efficiency increased quite dramatically.
最近在职业健康领域出现了一些伟大的工作，他们将员工从只面向墙壁且没有任何自然光照射的办公室转移出来，然后他们在研究期间做了一段时间，让他们实际上在窗户前工作，并测量了他们的睡眠，他们的睡眠时间和睡眠效率显着增加。
I'm forgetting the numbers now, but I think the increase in total sleep time was well over 30 minutes, and the improvement in sleep efficiency was five to 10%.
我现在忘记具体数字了，但我认为总睡眠时间的增加远超过 30 分钟，睡眠效率的提高为 5% 到 10%。
And if you're batting an 80% sleep efficiency average, we're a bit concerned about that.
如果您的平均睡眠效率为 80%，我们会对此感到有点担心。
But add 10% to that, and now you're in a great echelon of healthy sleepers, and all you did was just spend some time working in front of windows.
但再加上 10%，现在您就处于健康睡眠者的梯队中，而您所做的只是花一些时间在窗前工作。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's great.
太好了。
And probably folks might want to consider spending a little less time with sunglasses, provided they can do that safely, you know, driving, et cetera.
也许人们可能会考虑少花一点时间戴太阳镜，前提是他们可以安全地这样做，你知道，开车等等。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You're not alone with your exercise behavior and facing east.
您并不孤单有这样的锻炼习惯并且面朝东方。
So the one and only Tim Ferriss told me recently that his morning routine nowadays consists of jumping rope while facing east to get the sunlight stimulation of the eyes.
因此，唯一的蒂姆·费里斯（Tim Ferriss）最近告诉我，他现在的早晨例行公事就是面向东方跳绳，以获得眼睛的阳光刺激。
And as Matt and I both know, it has to be of the eyes, right?
正如马特和我都知道的那样，它必须是眼睛的，对吗？
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Yeah, yeah.
是啊，是啊。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I mean, these portals are the only way to convey to the rest of the brain and body about the time of day and wakefulness.
我的意思是，这些门户是向大脑和身体的其他部分传达一天中的时间和清醒状态的唯一方式。
Along the lines of wakefulness, I have a number of questions about caffeine, the dreaded and beloved caffeine.
沿着清醒的思路，我对咖啡因（令人恐惧和喜爱的咖啡因）有很多疑问。
I love caffeine, but I like it in relatively restricted periods of time.
我喜欢咖啡因，但我喜欢在相对有限的时间内喝。
So I'm a big fan of waking up and — even though I wake up very groggy — allowing my natural wakefulness signals to take hold, meaning I wake up very slowly but I don't drink caffeine right away.
所以我非常喜欢醒来——尽管我醒来时很昏昏沉沉——让我自然的清醒信号发挥作用，这意味着我醒来的速度非常慢，但我不会立即喝咖啡因。
I'll sort of delay caffeine by a little while, usually 90 minutes to two hours.
我会推迟一点时间摄入咖啡因，通常是 90 分钟到两个小时。
And that idea came to me on the basis of my understanding of how caffeine and the adenosine receptor interact.
这个想法是基于我对咖啡因和腺苷受体如何相互作用的理解而产生的。
I have a feeling you're going to pronounce adenosine differently than I do.
我有一种感觉，你的腺苷发音会和我不同。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
No, no, no. I will go with it.
不，不，不。我会跟着它去。
I'll go with adenosine.
我会选择腺苷。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'll try to go with your skeletal instead of skeletal, and synapse and synapse.
我会尝试使用你的骨骼而不是骨骼，以及突触和突触。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
And I'll be schedule and schedule.
我会安排和安排。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There we go.
我们开始吧。
But to make it really simple for folks, how does caffeine work to make us feel more alert?
但为了让大家更简单，咖啡因是如何让我们感觉更清醒的呢？
And does the timing in which we ingest caffeine play an important role in whether or not it works for us or against us?
我们摄入咖啡因的时间对于它是否有益或有害是否起着重要作用？
So maybe we just start with, how does caffeine work?
所以也许我们首先要了解咖啡因是如何发挥作用的？
Why is it that when I drink maté or coffee, which are my preferred sources of caffeine, do I feel a mental and physical lift?
为什么当我喝马黛茶或咖啡（我最喜欢的咖啡因来源）时，我会感到精神和身体上的提升？
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Yeah.
是的。
So I'm going to suggest, counter to what most people would think, drink coffee.
因此，与大多数人的想法相反，我建议喝咖啡。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or maté.
或者马黛。
Is maté okay also?
马特也好吗？
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Yeah, yeah.
是啊，是啊。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or whatever form you enjoy, yeah.
或者任何你喜欢的形式，是的。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
We'll come onto why I suggest that, but when it comes to coffee, I would say the dose and the timing makes the poison.
我们会解释为什么我建议这样做，但当谈到咖啡时，我会说剂量和时间会产生毒物。
So let's start with how caffeine works.
让我们从咖啡因的作用开始。
Caffeine is in a class of drugs that we call the psychoactive stimulants.
咖啡因属于一类我们称为精神兴奋剂的药物。
So it works through a variety of mechanisms.
因此它通过多种机制发挥作用。
One is a dopamine mechanism.
一是多巴胺机制。
Dopamine, we often think of as a reward chemical, but dopamine is also very much an alerting neurochemical as well, and caffeine has some role it seems to play in increasing dopamine.
多巴胺，我们经常认为是一种奖励化学物质，但多巴胺也是一种警觉神经化学物质，咖啡因似乎在增加多巴胺方面发挥着一定作用。
But its principle mode of action, we believe, in terms of making me more alert and keeping me awake throughout the day, is on the effects of adenosine.
但我们相信，就让我更加警觉并让我全天保持清醒而言，它的主要作用模式是腺苷的作用。
And to explain what adenosine is, from the moment that you and I woke up this morning, this chemical adenosine has been building up in our brain.
为了解释什么是腺苷，从你我今天早上醒来的那一刻起，这种化学物质腺苷就一直在我们的大脑中积累。
And the longer that we're awake, the more of that adenosine accumulates.
我们醒着的时间越长，腺苷积累的就越多。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
May I ask, is it accumulating in neurons, in glia, or in the blood vessels?
请问，它是在神经元、胶质细胞还是血管中积累？
And is it also accumulating in my body?
而且它是否也在我的体内积累？
Where is this adenosine coming from, and where is it accumulating?
这些腺苷从哪里来，在哪里积累？
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Yeah, so the adenosine here that we're talking about that is creating the sleep pressure is a central brain phenomenon, and it comes from the neurons themselves combusting energy.
是的，所以我们在这里讨论的产生睡眠压力的腺苷是一种中枢大脑现象，它来自神经元本身燃烧能量。
And as they're combusting energy, one of the offshoots of that is this chemical adenosine.
当它们燃烧能量时，其中的一个分支就是这种化学物质腺苷。
And so as we're awake throughout the day and our brain is metabolically very active, it's accumulating and building up this adenosine.
因此，当我们全天保持清醒并且我们的大脑新陈代谢非常活跃时，它就会积累并形成这种腺苷。
Now, the more adenosine that we have, the sleepier that we will feel, so it really is like, a sleep pressure is what we call it.
现在，我们拥有的腺苷越多，我们就会感到越困，所以它实际上就像我们所说的睡眠压力。
Now, it's not a mechanical pressure.
现在，这不是机械压力。
Don't worry, your head's not going to explode.
别担心，你的头不会爆炸。
It's a chemical pressure, and it's this weight of sleepiness that we feel gradually growing as we get into the evening.
这是一种化学压力，当我们进入晚上时，我们会感觉到这种睡意逐渐加重。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
May I just interrupt you again to just ask, do we know what the circuit mechanism is for that?
我可以再次打断您问一下，我们知道电路机制是什么吗？
I mean, not to go too far down the rabbit hole, but for the aficionados and for myself, we have brain mechanisms like locus coeruleus that release things — brain areas, locus coeruleus just being a brain area, of course — that release things that proactively create wakefulness.
我的意思是，不要在兔子洞里走得太远，但对于爱好者和我自己来说，我们有像蓝斑这样的大脑机制，可以释放一些东西——大脑区域，当然，蓝斑只是一个大脑区域——释放那些主动创造觉醒的东西。
So are those neurons shutting down as a consequence of having too much adenosine, or are there areas of the brain that promote sleepiness that are becoming activated?
那么，这些神经元是否因腺苷过多而关闭，或者大脑中促进困倦的区域是否被激活？
Because you can imagine both things working in parallel.
因为你可以想象这两件事是并行工作的。
One or the other would accomplish the same endpoint.
其中一个将实现相同的终点。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Yeah.
是的。
And it's both.
两者都是。
And so there are two main receptors for adenosine, the A1 receptor and the A2 receptor, and they have different modes of activating brain cells, or inactivating or decreasing their likelihood of firing.
因此，腺苷有两种主要受体：A1 受体和 A2 受体，它们具有不同的激活脑细胞、失活或降低脑细胞放电可能性的模式。
And adenosine works in this beautiful, elegant way where it will inhibit and shut down the wake-promoting areas of the brain whilst also increasing and dialing up the volume on sleep-activating, sleep-promoting .
腺苷以这种美丽而优雅的方式发挥作用，它会抑制和关闭大脑中促醒区域，同时增加和调高激活睡眠、促进睡眠的音量。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wow, that's so beautiful.
哇，那太漂亮了。
Fantastic.
极好的。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
It's always a push-pull.
这始终是一种推拉。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And we could have a larger discussion at some point about everything.
我们可以在某个时候就所有事情进行更广泛的讨论。
Seeing dark edges, seeing light edges.
看到暗边，看到亮边。
Our ability to smell or to sense pressure on the ...
我们嗅觉或感知压力的能力......
Everything's a push-pull in biology.
在生物学中一切都是推拉的。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Oh, it's great.
哦，太棒了。
Yeah, yep.
是的，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So this is another example where as I am awake longer, adenosine is released in the brain, and my wakefulness areas are being actively shut down by that adenosine, and my sleepiness brain areas, so to speak, are being promoted to be more active.
这是另一个例子，当我清醒的时间更长时，腺苷会在大脑中释放，而我的清醒区域会被腺苷主动关闭，而我的困倦大脑区域，可以说，会被促进变得更加活跃。
Is that correct?
这是正确的吗？
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
That's right, and it's a very progressive process.
没错，这是一个非常进步的过程。
It's not like a step function where ...
它不像阶跃函数...
And sometimes that happens occasionally, but it's usually because you've been sort of driving through, and as we'll come onto, have caffeine in the system, and then all of a sudden you just hit a wall and it just engulfs you, and you go from a zero to the one of sleepiness within a short period of time.
有时这种情况偶尔会发生，但通常是因为你开车经过，正如我们将要谈到的，体内有咖啡因，然后突然你撞到了墙，它就吞没了你，你在短时间内从零睡意变成了睡意。
Normally-
通常情况下——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What explains the fatigue after a hard conversation?
如何解释一次艰难谈话后的疲劳？
The desire to go to sleep, or the desire to go to sleep during a hard conversation?
想要睡觉的欲望，还是在艰难的谈话中想要睡觉的欲望？
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
That's an interesting one.
这是一个有趣的事情。
I think it's usually just based on personality-type interactions, and for the most part-
我认为这通常只是基于个性类型的互动，并且在大多数情况下-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Not that I've ever experienced that before.
我以前从未经历过这种情况。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
No, people with you don't, but with me, they always -
不，和你在一起的人不会，但和我在一起，他们总是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, no, no. I mean, I've experienced the desire to ...
哦，不，不。我的意思是，我经历过渴望...
Some conversations, I'm halfway through them, and I feel like I want to take a nap.
有些谈话，聊到一半，我就想小睡一会儿。
Right?
正确的？
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Yeah.
是的。
I would love to look at people's sleep history.
我很想看看人们的睡眠历史。
We've sort of seen that time and time again.
我们已经一次又一次地看到这种情况。
And then it could be, with folks like me, people just lose the will to live within about five minutes of speaking with me, so -
然后可能是，对于像我这样的人来说，人们在与我交谈后大约五分钟内就失去了生活的意愿，所以 -
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Not true.
不正确。
They hear that sleep is important, that's all, so they-
他们听说睡眠很重要，仅此而已，所以他们-
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
...
...
and that's flattery.
那是奉承。
That's great.
那太棒了。
So the way that then caffeine comes into this equation, as I was saying, it's usually kind of a linear process, or maybe it's probably closer to an exponential in terms of your subjective feeling of sleepiness.
因此，正如我所说，咖啡因进入这个方程式的方式通常是一种线性过程，或者就您的主观困倦感而言，它可能更接近指数。
And we haven't really been able to measure that in humans, because normally we ...
我们还没有真正能够在人类身上测量这一点，因为通常我们......
It's hard to actually stick something into the brain and be sucking, siphoning off stuff every couple of minutes, as you could do in animal studies, and keep asking people every couple of minutes, "How sleepy do you feel?
实际上很难将某些东西放入大脑中并每隔几分钟吸吮、吸走一些东西，就像在动物研究中所做的那样，并每隔几分钟不断询问人们：“你感觉有多困？
How sleepy?" and track to see if there's a linear rise in adenosine, which then creates an exponential rise in subjective sleepiness, or what the dynamics are.
怎么睡了？”并跟踪观察腺苷是否线性增加，从而导致主观睡意呈指数增加，或者动态是什么。
But I'm kind of nerding out.
但我有点书呆子气。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Caffeine comes into play here because caffeine comes into your system, and it latches onto those welcome sites of adenosine, the adenosine receptors.
咖啡因在这里发挥作用是因为咖啡因进入您的系统，并锁定腺苷（腺苷受体）的那些受欢迎的位点。
But what it doesn't do is latch onto them and activate them because if it was doing that, then in lots of ways, it would dial up more sleepiness.
但它没有做的是抓住它们并激活它们，因为如果它这样做，那么在很多方面，它都会引起更多的睡意。
It does the opposite.
它的作用恰恰相反。
The way that caffeine works is that it comes in, competes with quite sharp elbows with adenosine, competitively forces them out of the way, hijacks that receptor by latching onto it, but then just essentially blocks it.
咖啡因的作用方式是，它进入后，与腺苷竞争，竞争性地将它们推开，通过锁定受体来劫持该受体，但随后基本上会阻止它。
It doesn't inactivate the receptor.
它不会使受体失活。
It doesn't activate the receptor.
它不会激活受体。
It functionally inactivates it, in the sense that it takes it out of the game for adenosine.
它在功能上使其失活，从某种意义上说，它将其从腺苷的游戏中剔除。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
So it's like someone coming into a room, and you're just about to sit down on the chair, and caffeine comes in and just pulls out the chair and you're like, well, now I've got nowhere to sit.
所以这就像有人走进一个房间，你正要坐在椅子上，咖啡因进来了，你就把椅子拉开，你就像，好吧，现在我没有地方坐了。
And caffeine just keeps pulling out the chairs from adenosine, and adenosine, even though it's at the same concentration in your brain, your brain doesn't know that you've been awake for 10 hours, 16 hours at that point when you've downed a cup of coffee, because all of that adenosine that's still there can't communicate to the brain that you've been awake for 16 hours, because-
咖啡因不断地从腺苷中拉出椅子，尽管腺苷在你大脑中的浓度相同，但当你喝下一杯咖啡时，你的大脑并不知道你已经醒了 10 小时、16 小时，因为仍然存在的所有腺苷无法向大脑传达你已经醒了 16 小时的信息，因为——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But the adenosine is still in brain circulation?
但腺苷还在脑循环中吗？
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Correct.
正确。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So the real question is, what happens when caffeine is dislodged from the adenosine receptor?
所以真正的问题是，当咖啡因从腺苷受体上脱落时会发生什么？
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Unfortunate things happen.
不幸的事情发生了。
And that's what we call the caffeine crash, which is caffeine has a half-life and it's metabolized, and-
这就是我们所说的咖啡因崩溃，咖啡因有半衰期并且会被代谢，而且-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do you recall what the half-life is?
你还记得半衰期是什么吗？
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Yeah, the half-life is somewhere between five to six hours, and the quarter-life, therefore, is somewhere between 10 to 12 hours.
是的，半衰期约为 5 至 6 小时，因此四分之一衰期约为 10 至 12 小时。
It's variable.
它是可变的。
Different people have different durations of its action, but for the average adult, five to six hours.
不同的人其作用持续时间不同，但一般成年人为五到六个小时。
That variation, we understand, it's down to a liver enzyme, or a set of liver enzymes, of the class that we call the cytochrome P450 enzymes.
我们知道，这种变异是由一种肝酶或一组肝酶引起的，我们称之为细胞色素 P450 酶。
And there are, I think, last I delved into the data, which is pretty recently, there are two gene variants that will dictate the enzymatic speed with which the liver breaks down caffeine.
我认为，最后我深入研究了最近的数据，有两种基因变异将决定肝脏分解咖啡因的酶促速度。
And that's why you can have some people who are very sensitive to caffeine and other people who say, "It doesn't affect me really that much at all."
这就是为什么有些人对咖啡因非常敏感，而另一些人则说：“它对我的影响根本没有那么大。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
These are the people that have a double espresso after a 9:00 p.m.
这些人在晚上 9:00 后喝双份浓缩咖啡。
dinner and can sleep just fine?
吃完饭还能睡得好吗？
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Yeah.
是的。
Well, and we'll come-
好吧，我们会来——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or at least subjectively, they think they're sleeping.
或者至少主观上，他们认为自己正在睡觉。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Subjectively, yeah.
主观上来说，是的。
And we should speak about that assumptive danger too.
我们也应该谈论这种假设的危险。
So then the caffeine is in the system, and after some time period, it will be inactive in the system.
那么咖啡因就在系统中，一段时间后，它就会在系统中失去活性。
So let's say that I've been awake for 12 hours now and it's 8:00 p.m., and I'm feeling a bit tired, but I want to push through, and I want to keep working for another couple of hours.
假设我已经醒了 12 个小时，现在是晚上 8:00，我感觉有点累，但我想坚持下去，我想继续工作几个小时。
So I have a cup of coffee.
所以我要了一杯咖啡。
All of a sudden, I was feeling tired, but I don't feel like I've been awake for 12 hours anymore, because with the caffeine in the system, maybe only half of that adenosine is being communicated through the receptor to my brain.
突然间，我感到疲倦，但我感觉自己已经醒了 12 个小时了，因为体内有咖啡因，可能只有一半的腺苷通过受体传递到我的大脑。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
A hundred percent of the adenosine is still there.
百分之一百的腺苷仍然存在。
Only half of it is allowed to communicate to my brain.
只有一半可以传达到我的大脑。
So now I think, oh, I haven't been awake for 12 hours.
所以现在我想，哦，我已经12个小时没有醒来了。
I've just been awake for six hours, I feel great.
我刚刚醒了六个小时，感觉很好。
Then, after a few hours, and the caffeine is starting to come out of my system, not only am I hit with the same levels of adenosine that I had before I'd had the cup of coffee several hours ago, it's that plus all of the adenosine that's been building up during the time that the caffeine has been in my system.
然后，几个小时后，咖啡因开始从我的系统中排出，我不仅体内的腺苷水平与几个小时前喝咖啡之前的水平相同，而且还加上咖啡因进入我的系统期间积累的所有腺苷。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So sort of an avalanche of adenosine?
是腺苷的雪崩吗？
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
It is a tsunami wave, yeah.
这是海啸，是的。
And that's the caffeine crash.
这就是咖啡因崩溃。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it's interesting, because the caffeine crash at two o'clock in the afternoon when you have work to do is a terrible thing.
这很有趣，因为当你有工作要做时，下午两点咖啡因崩溃是一件可怕的事情。
But what about the person — maybe this person is me in my twenties — who says, I'm going to drink caffeine all day long, and then I want the crash, because at 9:00 or 10:00 p.m., if I stop drinking caffeine at say 6:00 p.m., and I crash, then I crash into a slumber, a deep night of sleep.
但是那个人——也许这个人是我二十多岁——说，我要整天喝咖啡因，然后我想要崩溃，因为在晚上 9:00 或 10:00，如果我在下午 6:00 停止喝咖啡因，然后我崩溃了，然后我就陷入了沉睡，一夜的深睡。
Is that sleep really as deep as I think it is?
睡眠真如我想象的那么深吗？
Because given the half-life of caffeine that you mentioned a few moments ago, I have to imagine that having some of that caffeine circulating in my system might disrupt the depth of sleep, or somehow the architecture of sleep, in a way that even if I get eight, or who knows, even 10 hours of sleep, it might not be as restorative as I would like it to be.
因为考虑到你刚才提到的咖啡因的半衰期，我不得不想象，在我的系统中循环的一些咖啡因可能会扰乱睡眠深度，或者以某种方式扰乱睡眠的结构，即使我睡了八个小时，或者谁知道，甚至是十个小时，它也可能不会像我希望的那样恢复活力。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Yeah.
是的。
And that is the danger, just sort of those people that you described who say, and a lot of them will speak with me too, say, "Look, I can have two espressos with dinner, and I fall asleep fine and I stay asleep," because usually those are the two phenotypes that we typically see with too much caffeine.
这就是危险，就像你所描述的那些人一样，他们中的很多人也会跟我说话，说，“看，我可以在晚餐时喝两杯浓缩咖啡，然后我就睡得很好，而且我会一直睡着”，因为通常这是我们在咖啡因摄入过多时通常会看到的两种表型。
I just can't fall asleep as easily as I want to, or I fall asleep, but I just can't stay asleep.
我就是不能像我想的那样轻易入睡，或者我睡着了，但我就是睡不着。
And caffeine can do both of those things quite potently.
咖啡因可以非常有效地完成这两件事。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
How late in the day do you think is, assuming somebody — translate this, folks, if you go to bed earlier or later; you have to shift the hours accordingly — but given somebody who typically gets into bed around 10:00, 10:30 and falls asleep around 11:00, 11:30, when would you recommend they halt caffeine intake?
假设有人——翻译一下，伙计们，如果你早点或晚点睡觉，你认为一天有多晚了？你必须相应地改变时间——但考虑到有人通常在 10:00、10:30 左右上床睡觉，并在 11:00、11:30 左右入睡，你会建议他们什么时候停止摄入咖啡因？
And these are not strict prescriptors but I think people do benefit from having some fairly clear guidelines of what might work for them.
这些并不是严格的规定，但我认为人们确实受益于一些相当明确的指导方针，这些指导方针可能对他们有用。
Would you say cut off caffeine by what time of the day?
你会说在一天中的什么时间停止摄入咖啡因吗？
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
I would usually say take your typical bedtime and count back sort of somewhere between 10 to ...
我通常会说，按照你典型的就寝时间倒数 10 到...
eight hours is probably getting a little bit close, but take back sort of 10 hours or eight hours of time.
八小时可能有点接近了，但回想一下 10 小时或 8 小时的时间。
That's the time when you should really stop using caffeine, is the suggestion.
建议您在此时真正停止使用咖啡因。
And the reason is because for those people who even just keep drinking up until into the evening, you're right that they can fall asleep fine, maybe they stay asleep, but the depth of their deep sleep is not as deep anymore.
原因是因为对于那些一直喝酒到晚上的人来说，你是对的，他们可以很好地入睡，也许他们会睡着，但他们的深度睡眠深度不再那么深了。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
And so there are two consequences.
所以有两个后果。
The first is that for me, and it can be up to ...
第一个是对我来说，它可以取决于......
by 30%, and for me to drop your deep sleep by 30%, I'd have to age you by between 10 to 12 years.
30%，如果我要让你的深度睡眠减少 30%，我就必须让你衰老 10 到 12 岁。
Or you can just do it every night to yourself with a couple of espressos.
或者您可以每天晚上自己喝几杯浓缩咖啡。
The second is that you then wake up the next morning, and you think, well, I didn't have problems falling asleep, and I didn't have problems staying asleep, but I don't feel particularly restored by my sleep.
第二个是，你第二天早上醒来，你会想，嗯，我入睡没有问题，保持睡眠也没有问题，但我感觉睡眠并没有特别恢复。
So now I'm reaching for three or four cups of coffee the next morning rather than just two or three cups of coffee.
所以现在我第二天早上会喝三四杯咖啡，而不是只喝两三杯咖啡。
And so goes this dependency cycle, that you then need your uppers to wake you up in the morning, and then sometimes people will use alcohol in the evening to bring them down because they're overly caffeinated, and alcohol, and we can speak about that too, also has very deleterious impacts on your sleep as well.
这种依赖性循环就是这样，你早上需要你的上半身叫醒你，然后有时人们会在晚上用酒精来让你清醒，因为他们含有过多的咖啡因，而酒精，我们也可以谈论这一点，也会对你的睡眠产生非常有害的影响。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
So you're right that it's not just the quantity of your sleep or even difficulties falling or staying asleep, it can also be deep sleep.
所以你是对的，这不仅仅是你的睡眠时间，甚至是入睡或保持睡眠困难，也可能是深度睡眠。
But here again, I think, I don't want to be frightening people, and I mentioned this before, I think one of the real problems that I, or mistakes that I made, because I didn't ...
但在这里，我想，我不想吓唬人们，我之前提到过这一点，我认为我真正的问题之一，或者我犯的错误，因为我没有......
I'd never had much public exposure before the book, and I was so saddened by the disease and the suffering that I was seeing as a consequence of a lack of sleep in our society and the fact that it wasn't really being discussed very much; I sort of came out a little bit headstrong, more than a little bit headstrong.
在这本书之前，我从未有过太多的公众曝光，我对这种疾病和痛苦感到非常难过，我所看到的这种疾病和痛苦是由于我们的社会缺乏睡眠而造成的，而且事实上它并没有得到真正的讨论；我表现得有点任性，甚至有点任性。
And I think I was perhaps too much gas pedal and too little brake, as it were.
我想我可能是油门踩得太多了，刹车太少了。
And I don't think that's the right way to approach a health message within the public sphere, and I've become much softer in how I think about these things.
我认为这不是在公共领域处理健康信息的正确方式，而且我对这些事情的看法变得更加温和。
I have ideas about what the ideal world looks like for sleep, but I also realize that none of us live in this thing called the ideal world.
我对睡眠的理想世界有一些想法，但我也意识到我们没有人生活在这个所谓的理想世界中。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We certainly don't.
我们当然不知道。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
So I want to be really mindful of that.
所以我想真正注意这一点。
And I think I've done a really bad job of being sort of too forthright, particularly for people who struggle with sleep, early on, when I would offer these sort of messages about sleep.
我认为我做得太直率了，特别是对于那些与睡眠作斗争的人，当我早些时候提供这些关于睡眠的信息时，我做得非常糟糕。
I want to be veritical when it comes to the science.
当谈到科学时，我想保持真实。
I want to be faithful to the science, but I also don't want to go out and scare the living daylights out of people, particularly people who are struggling with their sleep, because it's probably only going to make matters worse.
我想忠实于科学，但我也不想出去吓唬人们，尤其是那些睡眠困难的人，因为这可能只会让事情变得更糟。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
So I've been beautifully schooled by learning how to be a slightly better public communicator.
因此，我通过学习如何成为一名更好的公共沟通者而受到了很好的教育。
I'm nowhere near of the standing that you are.
我的地位远不及你。
You're very elegant and it's very intuitive to you.
你非常优雅，而且对你来说非常直观。
I'm still with training wheels, but I'm getting a little bit better.
我仍然带着辅助轮，但我已经好一点了。
But I just want to say that when I'm speaking about caffeine, because it sounds as though I'm very sort of overt about it.
但当我谈论咖啡因时，我只想这么说，因为听起来我对此非常公开。
But I will come back to why I say drink coffee, but I just wanted to make that point.
但我会回到为什么我说喝咖啡，但我只是想表明这一点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Well, I appreciate you making that point, and I'm sure our listeners will too.
嗯，我很感谢你提出这一点，我相信我们的听众也会这么做。
I still will stand behind my statement, which is that what-
我仍然会支持我的声明，这就是-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Stand behind my statement, which is that what you've done for the notion that sleep is vital for all aspects of health and for performance, mental and physical and wakefulness — the message in that and the packaging it was contained in ...
支持我的声明，即您为睡眠对于健康、表现、精神、身体和觉醒的各个方面都至关重要这一观念所做的一切——其中的信息以及它所包含的包装......
has been clearly net positive.
显然是净正值。
People needed to be cued to this.
人们需要得到提示。
The "I'll sleep when I'm dead" mentality is one that I had.
“我死后我会睡觉”的心态就是我所拥有的一种。
It's one that other people have, people in a huge number of vital communities, not just your students, but also people ...
这是其他人、大量重要社区中的人们所拥有的，不仅仅是你的学生，还有人们……
The messaging that you provided and continue to provide has positively impacted the first responder community, the medical community — there's still steps that need to be taken — the military community and of course the civilian community.
您提供并继续提供的信息对急救人员社区、医疗界（仍需要采取步骤）、军事界，当然还有平民界产生了积极影响。
And so I think these adjustments about, yeah, caffeine's okay.
所以我认为这些关于咖啡因的调整是可以的。
Just restrict it to the early part of the day if you can most days.
如果可以的话，大部分时间都将其限制在一天的早些时候。
I mean, I think the law of averages; it's like the light-viewing behavior.
我的意思是，我认为平均法则；这就像光观察行为。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think it is critical to view sunlight or natural, some other form of bright light early in the day.
我认为在一天的早些时候观察阳光或自然光或其他形式的明亮光至关重要。
But if you miss a day, it's not that your whole system is going to dissolve into a puddle of tears.
但如果你错过了一天，并不是说你的整个系统就会化为一滩泪水。
That'll happen on the second or the third day.
这将在第二天或第三天发生。
No, I'm kidding.
不，我在开玩笑。
You get a couple days.
你有几天时间。
Biology works in averages, except with respect to accident or injury.
生物学的表现是平均的，除了事故或伤害之外。
A car accident is a car accident.
车祸就是车祸。
You don't get to have three of those before the brain damage occurs if the accident's severe enough.
如果事故足够严重，在脑损伤发生之前你就不可能拥有其中的三个。
But with sleep behavior, these homeostatic-type behaviors, or with food, one chocolate sunday, is it going to kill you?
但是对于睡眠行为，这些稳态类型的行为，或者对于食物，周日一块巧克力，它会杀死你吗？
No. Right.
不，对。
Every night, yeah.
每天晚上，是的。
It's going to make you demented and kill you early.
它会让你发疯并早早杀死你。
We know this.
我们知道这一点。
And so I think the middle ground is often a hard place to achieve.
所以我认为中间立场通常是很难实现的。
So I think you've done a phenomenal job, but I appreciate you raising these points.
所以我认为你做得非常出色，但我很感谢你提出这些观点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I think it's clear that we all need to ..
我认为很明显我们都需要..
that we all can and should do certain things better, including being gentle with ourselves from time to time when we deviate from these ideal circumstances.
我们都可以而且应该在某些事情上做得更好，包括当我们偏离这些理想环境时时不时地对自己温柔一些。
Along these lines, I do want to talk about alcohol because I think caffeine and alcohol represent the kind of two opposite ends of the spectrum.
沿着这些思路，我确实想谈谈酒精，因为我认为咖啡因和酒精代表了光谱的两个相反端。
Clearly there are other stimulants; they're your adderalls and your high-energy drinks that people use.
显然还有其他兴奋剂；它们是人们使用的阿得拉和高能量饮料。
But alcohol and caffeine are the most commonly consumed stimulants and sedatives — depressants as they're sometimes called.
但酒精和咖啡因是最常食用的兴奋剂和镇静剂——有时也称为抑制剂。
So what happens when somebody has a glass — we always hear a glass or two of wine in the evening, or a cocktail after dinner or before dinner.
那么，当有人喝一杯时会发生什么——我们总是听到晚上喝一两杯酒，或者晚饭后或晚饭前喝鸡尾酒。
How does that impact their sleep?
这对他们的睡眠有何影响？
And then we'll be sure to circle back in terms of what reasonable ranges of behavior when it comes to avoiding alcohol, or if it's age-appropriate, et cetera, enjoying alcohol.
然后，我们一定会回想一下，在避免饮酒或享受酒精是否适合年龄等方面，合理的行为范围是多少。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
So alcohol, if we're thinking about classes of drugs, they're in a class of drugs that we call the sedatives.
所以酒精，如果我们考虑药物类别，它们属于我们称之为镇静剂的一类药物。
And I think one of the first problems that people often mistake: alcohol is often used as a sleep aid for people who are struggling with sleep when things like over the counter remedies, et cetera, or herbal remedies have just not worked out for them.
我认为人们经常犯的第一个问题是：对于那些睡眠困难的人来说，当非处方药等或草药等药物对他们不起作用时，酒精经常被用作睡眠辅助剂。
And alcohol, unfortunately, is anything but a sleep aid.
不幸的是，酒精根本不能帮助睡眠。
The first reason that most people use it is to try and help them fall asleep.
大多数人使用它的第一个原因是尝试帮助他们入睡。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And this process of this event that we call falling asleep, I have to imagine is a process.
这个我们称之为入睡的事件的过程，我必须想象是一个过程。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
It is a process.
这是一个过程。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Like everything in biology.
就像生物学中的一切一样。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And that that process involves, in some way, as we talked about, push-pull before turning off, thinking, planning, etcetera, and turning on some sort of relaxation mechanism.
正如我们所讨论的，这个过程在某种程度上涉及关闭之前的推拉、思考、计划等等，以及开启某种放松机制。
I have to imagine that these two things are knobs, turning in opposite directions.
我必须想象这两个东西是旋钮，以相反的方向转动。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That gives us this outcome we call falling asleep.
这给了我们这样的结果，我们称之为入睡。
Alcohol, it seems, is helpful for some people to turn off their thoughts or their planning, right?
酒精似乎有助于某些人停止思考或计划，对吗？
Is that right?
是这样吗？
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Yes, it is.
是的，确实如此。
And so I think if we look at the pattern of brain activity, if I were to place you inside an MRI scanner, where we're looking at the activity of your brain, and watch you drifting off, some parts of your brain will become less active, other parts will become more active.
所以我认为，如果我们观察大脑活动的模式，如果我将你放入核磁共振扫描仪中，观察你大脑的活动，并观察你的昏昏欲睡，你大脑的某些部分会变得不那么活跃，其他部分会变得更加活跃。
And this is the push-pull model.
这就是推拉模型。
It's inhibition, excitation.
这是抑制、兴奋。
But alcohol is quite different in that regard.
但酒精在这方面却截然不同。
Alcohol is, because it's a sedative, what it's really doing is trying to essentially knock out your cortex.
酒精是，因为它是一种镇静剂，它真正的作用是试图从根本上破坏你的皮质。
It's sedating your cortex.
它可以镇静你的皮质。
And sedation is not sleep.
镇静并不是睡眠。
But when we have a couple of drinks in the evening, when we have a couple of night caps, we mistake sedation for sleep, saying, well, always when I have a couple of whiskeys or a couple of cocktails, it always helps me fall asleep faster.
但是，当我们晚上喝了几杯酒，喝了几杯睡前饮料时，我们会把镇静剂误认为是睡眠，说，好吧，总是当我喝几杯威士忌或几杯鸡尾酒时，它总是能帮助我更快入睡。
In truth, what's happening is that you're losing consciousness quicker, but you're not necessarily falling naturalistically asleep any quicker.
事实上，发生的情况是你失去意识的速度更快，但你不一定更快地自然入睡。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
So that's one of the first, sort of, things just to keep in mind.
所以这是首先要记住的事情之一。
The second thing with alcohol is that it fragments your sleep.
酒精的第二个作用是它会破坏你的睡眠。
And we spoke about the quality of your sleep being just as important as the quantity, and alcohol — through a variety of mechanisms, some of which are activation of that autonomic nervous system, that fight-or-flight branch of the nervous system — alcohol will actually have you waking up many more times throughout the night.
我们谈到睡眠质量与睡眠数量同样重要，而酒精——通过多种机制，其中一些是激活自主神经系统，即神经系统的战斗或逃跑分支——酒精实际上会让你在晚上醒来更多次。
So your sleep is far less continuous.
所以你的睡眠不太连续。
Now, some of those awakenings will be of conscious recollection the next day.
现在，其中一些觉醒将在第二天有意识地回忆起来。
You'll just remember waking up.
你只会记得醒来。
Many of them won't be, but yet your sleep will be littered with these sort of punctured awakenings throughout the night.
虽然很多都不会，但你的睡眠会整晚都充满这种被刺破的觉醒。
And again, when you wake up the next morning, you don't feel restored by your sleep.
而且，当你第二天早上醒来时，你并没有因为睡眠而感到精神焕发。
Fragmented sleep, or noncontinuous sleep in this alcohol-induced way is usually not good-quality sleep that you feel great on the next day.
这种由酒精引起的碎片化睡眠或不连续睡眠通常不是高质量的睡眠，无法让您在第二天感觉良好。
The third part of alcohol in terms of an equation is that it's quite potent at blocking your REM sleep, your rapid eye movement sleep, and REM sleep is critical for a variety of cognitive functions.
酒精的第三部分是，它非常有效地阻碍快速眼动睡眠，即快速动眼睡眠，而快速眼动睡眠对于多种认知功能至关重要。
Some aspects of learning and memory seems to be critical for aspects of emotional and mental health.
学习和记忆的某些方面似乎对情绪和心理健康至关重要。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You've described it before as a sort of self-generated therapy that occurs while we sleep.
您之前曾将其描述为一种在我们睡觉时发生的自我产生的疗法。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Yeah, it's overnight therapy.
是的，这是过夜疗法。
It's emotional first aid.
这是情感急救。
Is certainly-
肯定是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
People that don't get enough sleep are very easy to derail emotionally.
睡眠不足的人很容易情绪脱轨。
Not that one would want to do that to people, but we all sort of fall apart emotionally.
并不是说有人愿意对别人这样做，但我们都会在情感上崩溃。
I always think about almost like our skin sensitivity can be heightened.
我一直认为我们的皮肤敏感度可以提高。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
When we are sleep-deprived, our emotional sensitivity is such that when we're sleep-deprived, such that it takes a much finer grain of sandpaper to create that kind of friction.
当我们睡眠不足时，我们的情绪会变得非常敏感，以至于需要更细的砂纸才能产生这种摩擦。
Things bother us.
事情困扰着我们。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Threshold to trigger.
触发阈值。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Even online comments bother us when we're sleep-deprived and never when we're-
当我们睡眠不足时，即使是网上的评论也会困扰我们，而当我们……
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
I would love to say that I never look at them, except I look at-
我想说我从来不看他们，除了看——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, I should-
嗯，我应该——
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Maybe everyone-
或许大家——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Here I will editorialize because the notion of not looking at comments is unreasonable to ask of any academic.
在这里我将进行社论，因为要求任何学者不看评论的想法都是不合理的。
Because academics, we are all trained to look at our teaching evaluations and, just like with online comments, to ignore 20% of them.
因为作为学者，我们都被训练去查看我们的教学评估，就像网上评论一样，忽略其中的 20%。
No, I'm kidding.
不，我在开玩笑。
We look at them all in any event.
无论如何，我们都会关注它们。
So in terms of translating this to behavior, I don't particularly enjoy alcohol.
因此，就将其转化为行为而言，我并不是特别喜欢酒精。
I guess I might be fortunate in that sense, but I also have never really experienced the pleasure of drinking alcohol.
我想从这个意义上说我可能很幸运，但我也从未真正体验过喝酒的乐趣。
I sometimes like the taste of a drink, but I never like the sensation.
我有时喜欢喝酒的味道，但从来不喜欢那种感觉。
So I don't have a lot of familiarity with this, but many people do.
所以我对此不太熟悉，但很多人都知道。
And I understand that.
我明白这一点。
So let's say somebody enjoys a glass of wine or two with dinner, and they eat dinner at 7:00 p.m.
假设有人喜欢在晚餐时喝一两杯葡萄酒，并且他们在晚上 7:00 吃晚餐。
Is that likely to disrupt their sleep at all?
这可能会扰乱他们的睡眠吗？
Let's just, let's make this a series of gradations.
让我们将其设为一系列渐变。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
And the answer is yes.
答案是肯定的。
I think once just looked at a single glass of wine in the evening with dinner, and I would be untruthful if I didn't just simply say it has an effect.
我想有一次只是在晚上吃饭时喝了一杯酒，如果我不只是简单地说它有效果，那我就是不诚实的。
And we can measure that in terms of-
我们可以用以下方面来衡量——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Less REM sleep.
快速眼动睡眠较少。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Less REM sleep.
快速眼动睡眠较少。
And one of the fascinating studies, I can't remember what dose, I think they got them close to a standard illegal blood-alcohol level.
其中一项令人着迷的研究，我不记得剂量是多少，我认为他们使他们接近标准的非法血液酒精浓度。
So maybe they were a little bit tipsy.
所以也许他们有点醉了。
And yes, you see all of the changes that we just described; they sort of lose consciousness more quickly.
是的，您看到了我们刚才描述的所有变化；他们失去意识的速度更快。
They have fragmented sleep, and they have a significant reduction in REM sleep.
他们的睡眠是碎片化的，并且快速眼动睡眠显着减少。
But what was also interesting, because REM sleep, as we spoke about before, is a time when some hormonal systems are essentially recharged and refreshed.
但同样有趣的是，因为正如我们之前谈到的，快速眼动睡眠是一些荷尔蒙系统基本上得到充电和恢复的时期。
Growth hormone being one of them.
生长激素就是其中之一。
There was well over a 50%, five zero, drop in their growth hormone release during alcohol-laced sleep at night.
在夜间酒精睡眠期间，他们的生长激素释放量下降了 50% 以上（五个零）。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And growth hormone is so vital for metabolism and repair of tissues.
生长激素对于组织的新陈代谢和修复至关重要。
And it's not just keeping body fat low.
这不仅仅是保持低体脂。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
This is essentially adults.
这本质上是成年人。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Essential.
必不可少的。
Along those lines, I just want to highlight the fact that this information that you're sharing, that growth hormone is released is strongly tethered to the presence of healthy amounts of REM sleep, is interesting to me because I always thought that growth hormone was released in the early part of the night.
沿着这些思路，我只是想强调一个事实，即您分享的信息，即生长激素的释放与健康的快速眼动睡眠量的存在密切相关，这对我来说很有趣，因为我一直认为生长激素是在夜间早些时候释放的。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Well, it is released across both of those, but across the different stages.
嗯，它是在这两个方面发布的，但是是在不同的阶段。
But what we also know is that when you disrupt REM sleep, there are those growth hormone consequences.
但我们也知道，当你扰乱快速眼动睡眠时，就会产生生长激素的后果。
So it's not an exclusive system, just like with testosterone.
所以它不是一个排他性的系统，就像睾丸激素一样。
We can see changes throughout non-REM sleep, but if you ask when are the peak release rates of testosterone, it's right before we go into REM sleep and then during REM sleep.
我们可以看到整个非快速眼动睡眠期间的变化，但如果你问睾酮释放率的峰值是什么时候，那就是在我们进入快速眼动睡眠之前，然后是快速眼动睡眠期间。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And of course testosterone being important both for males and-
当然，睾酮对男性来说很重要，而且——
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
For men and women.
适合男性和女性。
Yup.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
for females, for libido and tissue repair and wellbeing.
对于女性，用于性欲、组织修复和健康。
Nobody, regardless of chromosomal, hormonal or any other background wants to have their normal levels of testosterone reduced acutely.
无论染色体、荷尔蒙或任何其他背景如何，没有人希望自己的正常睾酮水平急剧下降。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
No.
不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's just a bad ...
这只是一个糟糕的...
it equates to a terrible set of psychological and physical symptom.
它相当于一系列可怕的心理和身体症状。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
And the mortality risk that's associated with low testosterone is nontrivial.
与低睾酮水平相关的死亡风险是不小的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Prostate cancer.
前列腺癌。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Right, Exactly.
对，完全正确。
So coming back to just the point on REM sleep that you mentioned regarding emotional instability, and we see that that's one of the things, one of the most reliable signatures of just insufficient sleep, doesn't have to be sleep deprivation.
因此，回到您提到的有关情绪不稳定的快速眼动睡眠的问题，我们发现这是睡眠不足的最可靠特征之一，并不一定是睡眠不足。
What we've discovered over the past 20 years here at the sleep center is that there is no major psychiatric disorder that we can find in which sleep is normal.
过去 20 年来，我们在睡眠中心发现，在任何重大精神疾病中，我们都找不到睡眠正常的情况。
And so I think that firstly told us there is a very intimate association between your emotional mental health and your sleep health.
因此，我认为这首先告诉我们，您的情绪心理健康与睡眠健康之间存在非常密切的关联。
But when it also comes to REM sleep, I think what's fascinating is that it's not just about your emotional health.
但当谈到快速眼动睡眠时，我认为令人着迷的是，它不仅仅与您的情绪健康有关。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
It's not just about your hormonal health.
这不仅仅是关于你的荷尔蒙健康。
We've also been seeing other aspects of cognition.
我们还看到了认知的其他方面。
But then there was a report; I think it could have been about two years ago, out of Harvard; I think it was Beth Clayman's group.
但随后有一份报告；我认为这可能是大约两年前，从哈佛毕业；我认为是贝丝·克莱曼的乐队。
They found that, and they replicated it in two different large populations, if you look at the contribution of different sleep stages to your lifespan, REM sleep was the strongest predictor of your longevity.
他们发现，并且在两个不同的大人群中复制了这一结果，如果你观察不同睡眠阶段对你的寿命的贡献，就会发现快速眼动睡眠是你长寿的最强预测因素。
And it was a linear relationship, but wasn't sort of one of these U-shape or J-shaped curves that we often see with total sleep and mortality risk.
这是一种线性关系，但不是我们经常看到的总睡眠和死亡风险的 U 形或 J 形曲线。
It really was linear, that the less and less REM sleep that you were getting, the higher and higher your probability of death, and then they did ...
这确实是线性的，你的快速眼动睡眠越少，你的死亡概率就越高，然后他们就……
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Was that death due to natural causes, or accidents?
死亡是自然原因还是意外事故？
'Cause I can imagine if you're not getting enough REM sleep, you're more likely to drive off the freeway, step off a cliff.
因为我可以想象，如果你没有获得足够的快速眼动睡眠，你更有可能开车冲出高速公路，走下悬崖。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Yeah, I think it was all cause-
是的，我想这都是因为——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Just make bad decisions about anything, relationships ...
只是对任何事情做出错误的决定，人际关系......
which can also be life threatening.
这也可能危及生命。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Yeah, I've tried to lean into that and claim that I, with those bad relationships situations, that, oh, I just didn't have enough REM sleep last night, my darling.
是的，我试图倾向于这一点，并声称我，在那些糟糕的人际关系情况下，哦，我昨晚没有足够的快速眼动睡眠，我亲爱的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The REM sleep defense.
快速眼动睡眠防御。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Yeah, but she's far wiser than I thought.
是的，但她比我想象的聪明得多。
But so they did this great machine learning analysis, and I may get these numbers backwards, but I think for every 5% reduction in REM sleep, there was a 13% associated increased risk of mortality.
但是他们做了这个很棒的机器学习分析，我可能会把这些数字倒过来，但我认为快速眼动睡眠每减少 5%，死亡风险就会增加 13%。
And I'll have to go back and check, but to me, and in the machine learning algorithm, what they ultimately spat out was that of all of the sleep stages, REM sleep is the most predictive of your longevity, of your lifespan.
我必须回去检查一下，但对我来说，在机器学习算法中，他们最终得出的是所有睡眠阶段的结果，快速眼动睡眠最能预测你的寿命。
So we often, I hear people saying, How can I get more deep sleep?
所以我经常听到人们说，我怎样才能获得更深度的睡眠？
Or they sometimes say, how can I get more dream sleep?
或者他们有时会说，我怎样才能获得更多的梦觉？
And my answer is a question: why do you want to get more of that?
我的回答是一个问题：你为什么想要获得更多？
And they'll say, well, isn't that the good stuff?
他们会说，好吧，这不是好东西吗？
And I'll say, well, actually all stages are the good stuff.
我会说，好吧，实际上所有阶段都是好东西。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's all the good.
一切都很好。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well it's like the exercise question.
嗯，这就像练习题。
And it took decades for people to understand that moving around for about 150, probably 180 minutes a week at doing endurance-type work, zone two cardio-type work, it is correlated with living longer, feeling better, less diabetes, et cetera.
人们花了几十年的时间才明白，每周运动约 150 分钟，可能是 180 分钟，进行耐力型工作、二区有氧运动，与寿命更长、感觉更好、患糖尿病的几率降低等相关。
There's really no way around it.
确实没有办法解决这个问题。
Yeah.
是的。
I mean, you can ingest metformin until the cows come home.
我的意思是，你可以服用二甲双胍直到奶牛回家。
You can take NMN, all of which I think have their place in certain contexts.
你可以采用 NMN，我认为所有这些在某些情况下都有自己的位置。
I'm a big fan of the work surrounding all those protocols.
我是所有这些协议相关工作的忠实粉丝。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Yeah, likewise.
是的，同样。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But without getting proper amounts of movement, meaning sufficient numbers, it doesn't matter how many 12-minute exercise regimes you follow per week, you need that threshold level.
但是，如果没有适当的运动量（即足够的运动量），那么无论您每周遵循多少次 12 分钟的锻炼方式，您都需要达到阈值水平。
And it sounds like the same is true of REM sleep and total amount of sleep.
听起来快速眼动睡眠和睡眠总量也是如此。
You pay the piper somehow.
你以某种方式付钱给风笛手。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Yeah.
是的。
The return on investment, I mean, to flip the coin, the return on investment is astronomical.
投资回报，我的意思是，抛硬币来说，投资回报是天文数字。
I think of sleep.
我想到了睡觉。
It is the tide that moves, that raises all of those health boats.
是潮水在流动，让所有这些健康之船升起。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And the most fundamental layer of mental and physical health.
以及最根本的一层心理和身体健康。
Whenever people ask me, even though I'm not a physician, they'll ask me, What should I take or what should I do?
每当人们问我时，即使我不是医生，他们也会问我，我应该吃什么或者我应该做什么？
The first question is always, How's your sleep?
第一个问题总是，你的睡眠怎么样？
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Great.
太棒了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Meaning, how well do you sleep every night, and how long you sleep?
意思是，您每晚的睡眠质量如何以及睡了多长时间？
I always recommend your book.
我总是推荐你的书。
I always recommend your podcast, the podcast you've been a guest on, et cetera.
我总是推荐你的播客，你曾经作为嘉宾的播客等等。
Who knows, maybe you'll even release your own podcast at some point soon and keep ...
谁知道呢，也许您甚至会在不久的将来发布自己的播客并继续...
because I do think people need to hear from you more often.
因为我确实认为人们需要更频繁地收到你的来信。
One thing, I don't want to return to the notion of public health discourse too much, but I do want to say one issue with books in general is that they can be revised, but it's more or less a one-and-done kind of thing until the next book comes out.
有一件事，我不想太多地回到公共卫生话语的概念，但我确实想说，书籍的一个问题是，它们可以被修改，但这或多或少是一劳永逸的事情，直到下一本书出版。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
One thing I like about the podcast format is that updates can be provided regularly, corrections and updates as new data come out.
我喜欢播客格式的一件事是可以定期提供更新，随着新数据的出现进行更正和更新。
And so that's a wonderful aspect to this format, and hopefully the format that you'll be embracing; the world needs to hear more from you more often about sleep in its various contours, not less.
所以这是这种格式的一个美妙的方面，希望你会接受这种格式；世界需要更多地从您那里听到更多有关睡眠的各种信息，而不是更少。
And so I do have a question about drinking alcohol.
所以我确实有一个关于饮酒的问题。
Not that we want to promote day drinking, but let's say that the one or two glasses of wine or cocktail is consumed with lunch — something that isn't traditionally done nowadays — or in a late afternoon happy hour cocktail, and then one is going to sleep seven or eight hours later.
并不是说我们想提倡白天喝酒，而是说午餐时喝一两杯葡萄酒或鸡尾酒（现在传统上不这样做），或者在下午晚些时候的欢乐时光鸡尾酒中喝一两杯葡萄酒或鸡尾酒，然后七八个小时后就可以睡觉了。
Do you think that that will improve or somehow mitigate the effects of alcohol?
您认为这会改善或以某种方式减轻酒精的影响吗？
Or if you have a drink, are you basically screwed for the next 24 hours?
或者如果你喝了一杯酒，接下来的 24 小时你基本上就完蛋了吗？
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
No, I think there's going to be a time window dependency.
不，我认为这会存在时间窗口依赖性。
Now, I don't know of anyone who's essentially done what you and I would like, which is the time separation, dose-dependent curve, where, okay, you drink at 10:00 a.m.
现在，我不知道有谁基本上做了你我想要的事情，即时间间隔、剂量依赖曲线，好吧，你在上午 10:00 喝酒。
or at 11, 12, one, two, three, four, five, all the way up to 10:00 p.m.
或 11、12、一、二、三、四、五，一直到晚上 10:00
and estimate what is the blast radius, and is it linear or is it nonlinear.
并估计爆炸半径是多少，是线性的还是非线性的。
Is it such that only when you drink in the last four hours do you just hit this exponential, and it's bad, bad?
是不是只有当你在最后四个小时内喝酒时，你才会达到这个指数，这很糟糕，很糟糕？
Or is there some other curve that we could imagine?
或者还有其他我们可以想象的曲线吗？
There would be many possibilities?
会有很多可能性吗？
But certainly, what we know is that the less alcohol and the less ...
但当然，我们知道的是，酒精越少，......
and more specifically the metabolic byproducts, aldehydes and ketones, they're the nefarious players here ...
更具体地说，代谢副产物、醛和酮，它们是这里的邪恶参与者……
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And not the ketones that people are all excited about.
而不是人们都兴奋的酮。
The other ketones; the chemists know what we're referring to.
其他酮类；化学家知道我们指的是什么。
But-
但是——
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Yeah, this is not about ketogenic.
是的，这与生酮无关。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This is not about ketogenic; they are ketone bodies that are released after ingesting alcohol that are not of the positive sort.
这与生酮无关；它们是摄入酒精后释放的酮体，但不是积极的。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Correct.
正确。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That a ketogenic diet might promote.
生酮饮食可能会促进这一点。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
So I think in terms of that alcohol profile, we certainly know that as you're heading into the evening hours, once again, timing and dose make the poison.
因此，我认为就酒精概况而言，我们当然知道，当您进入晚上时，时间和剂量再次决定了中毒的程度。
But I think it's also important once again from that public message standpoint.
但我认为从公共信息的角度来看，这也很重要。
And thank you.
谢谢你。
I think I am leaning into the podcast consideration arena at some point, but I don't want to be puritanical here.
我想我在某种程度上倾向于播客考虑领域，但我不想在这里变得清教徒。
I'm just a scientist, and I'm not here to tell anyone how to live.
我只是一名科学家，我不是来告诉任何人如何生活的。
All I'm trying to do is empower people with some of the scientific literature regarding sleep.
我想做的就是向人们提供一些有关睡眠的科学文献。
And then you can make whatever informed choices that you want.
然后你就可以做出你想要的任何明智的选择。
Now unlike you, it turns out I'm not a big drinker, and it's just because I've never liked the taste.
现在看来我和你不一样，酒量不大，只是因为我从来不喜欢这个味道。
And I'm surprised that they haven't taken away my British passport because I don't like lager or beer.
我很惊讶他们没有拿走我的英国护照，因为我不喜欢啤酒或啤酒。
But I also want to say that life is to be lived to a certain degree.
但我也想说，生活就是要活到一定程度。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
It's all about checks and balances.
这都是关于制衡的。
So if I go out and I have an ice cream sundae — I'm not big on those either, but sure, I know that my blood glucose is not going to be ideal for another 12 hours maybe.
因此，如果我出去吃一个冰淇淋圣代，我也不喜欢吃这些，但可以肯定的是，我知道我的血糖可能在接下来的 12 小时内都不会达到理想水平。
That's just the price you pay for having some kind of relaxed, fun life.
这正是你为了拥有某种轻松、有趣的生活而付出的代价。
Sure.
当然。
I don't want to look back on life and think, Gosh, I lived until I was 111, and it was utterly miserable.
我不想在回顾人生时想，天哪，我活到了 111 岁，那真是太悲惨了。
But it's all about some kind of a balance.
但这都是为了某种平衡。
And mine, my job is not to tell people a prescription for life, it's just to offer some scientific information.
而我，我的工作不是告诉人们生命的处方，只是提供一些科学信息。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
All right.
好吧。
Think you're doing a terrific job of that.
认为你在这方面做得非常出色。
People are, I always say we have all these neural circuits, and if it's working properly, we all have a circuit that allows us to skip over information or as we wish.
我总是说我们拥有所有这些神经回路，如果它正常工作，我们都有一个回路可以让我们跳过信息或按照我们的意愿跳过信息。
If the circuits between your brain and your thumbs are working, you can slide right along.
如果你的大脑和拇指之间的电路正常工作，你就可以继续滑行。
You can drop to the next content however you like.
您可以根据需要跳至下一个内容。
I would like to ask about marijuana and CBD.
我想问一下关于大麻和 CBD 的问题。
This is a discussion that I think five years ago would've ventured into the realm of illegal, But now in many places, not all, medical marijuana is approved or is legal.
我认为五年前这个讨论会进入非法领域，但现在在许多地方，并非所有地方，医用大麻都得到批准或合法。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And certainly it's in widespread use.
当然它正在广泛使用。
Certainly not recommending people do it.
当然不建议人们这样做。
I have my own thoughts about marijuana, CBD.
我对大麻、CBD 有自己的想法。
I've been fortunate, I suppose, that I don't particularly like marijuana or CBD.
我想，我很幸运，我并不特别喜欢大麻或 CBD。
I don't even know if I've ever tried CBD.
我什至不知道我是否尝试过 CBD。
First of all, does marijuana disrupt the depth of sleep, the architecture of sleep?
首先，大麻是否会破坏睡眠深度、睡眠结构？
And if so, as with alcohol and caffeine, does when you ingest it or when it's in your bloodstream, relative to when you go to sleep, does that play an important role?
如果是这样，就像酒精和咖啡因一样，当你摄入它或当它进入你的血液时，相对于你入睡时，这是否发挥重要作用？
So does marijuana disrupt sleep?
那么大麻会扰乱睡眠吗？
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Yeah, it does.
是的，确实如此。
And there's a pretty good amount of data on ...
并且有相当多的数据...
So we can break cannabis down into two of its key ingredients.
因此，我们可以将大麻分解为其两种关键成分。
We've got THC, tetrahydrocannabinol, and we've got CBD, and CBD is sort of the less psycho ...
我们有 THC、四氢大麻酚，还有 CBD，而 CBD 有点不那么精神……
It's what we think of as the nonpsychoactive component.
这就是我们所认为的非精神活性成分。
In other words, when you take CBD, you don't get high.
换句话说，当你服用 CBD 时，你不会感到兴奋。
If you take THC, you can get high.
如果你服用 THC，你就会兴奋。
That's the psychoactive part of the equation.
这就是等式中的精神活性部分。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Are both considered sedatives in the technical sense?
从技术意义上讲，两者都被认为是镇静剂吗？
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
No, they're not.
不，他们不是。
Neither of them have that class right now.
他们现在都没有那个课。
THC seems to speed up the time with which you fall asleep.
THC 似乎可以加快您入睡的时间。
But again, if you look at the electrical brainwave signature of your falling asleep with and without that THC, it's not going to be an ideal fit.
但同样，如果你观察有或没有 THC 入睡时的脑电波特征，你会发现这并不是一个理想的选择。
So you could argue it's non-natural, but many people use THC for that fact because they find it difficult to fall asleep, and it can speed the onset of at least nonconsciousness, I guess is the best way of describing it.
所以你可能会说它是非自然的，但很多人使用 THC 是因为他们发现很难入睡，而且它可以加速至少无意识的发生，我想这是描述它的最好方式。
But there are problems with THC and there are twofold.
但 THC 也存在双重问题。
The first is that it too, but through different mechanisms, seems to block REM sleep.
首先，它似乎也通过不同的机制阻碍快速眼动睡眠。
And that's why a lot of people when they're using will tell me, Look, I definitely, I was dreaming.
这就是为什么很多人在使用时会告诉我，看，我绝对是在做梦。
I don't remember many of my dreams.
我不记得我的很多梦了。
And then when they stop using THC, they'll say, I was having just crazy, crazy dreams.
然后当他们停止使用 THC 时，他们会说，我只是做了疯狂、疯狂的梦。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
And the reason is because there is a rebound mechanism.
而原因就是因为有反弹机制。
REM sleep is very clever, and alcohol is the same way in this sense; it's the same homeostatic mechanism.
快速眼动睡眠是非常聪明的，从这个意义上来说，酒精也是如此；这是相同的稳态机制。
Some people will tell me, Look, if I have a bit of a wild Friday night with some alcohol, maybe I'll sleep late into the next morning, and I'll just have these really intense dreams, and I thought I wasn't having any REM sleep.
有些人会告诉我，看，如果我周五晚上喝点酒度过一个疯狂的夜晚，也许我会睡到第二天早上，我只会做这些非常强烈的梦，而我以为我没有任何快速眼动睡眠。
Well, the way it works is that it's during, in the middle of the night really, when alcohol blocks your REM sleep, and your brain is smart — it understands how much REM sleep you should have had, how much REM sleep you have not because the alcohol's been in the system.
嗯，它的工作原理是，在半夜，酒精会阻碍你的快速眼动睡眠，而你的大脑很聪明——它知道你应该有多少快速眼动睡眠，而你没有多少快速眼动睡眠，因为酒精已经进入了系统。
And finally, in those early morning hours when you're getting through to six, seven, eight a.m., all of a sudden your brain not only goes back to having the same amount of REM it would've had, it does that plus it tries to get back all of the REM sleep that it's lost.
最后，在清晨，当你熬到早上六点、七点、八点时，你的大脑会突然恢复到原来的快速眼动睡眠时间，而且会试图恢复所有失去的快速眼动睡眠。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Does it get back all of the REM sleep?
它能恢复所有的快速眼动睡眠吗？
No, it doesn't.
不，事实并非如此。
It never gets back all of the REM sleep, but it tries.
它永远不会恢复所有的快速眼动睡眠，但它会尝试。
And so you have these really intense periods of REM sleep, hence you have really intense, bizarre dreams.
所以你会有非常强烈的快速眼动睡眠期，因此你会做非常强烈、奇怪的梦。
And that's what happens also with THC.
THC 也会发生这种情况。
You build up this pressure for REM sleep, this debt for REM sleep; will you ever pay it back?
你为快速眼动睡眠积累了这种压力，为快速眼动睡眠建立了这种债务；你会还钱吗？
Doesn't seem as though you get back everything that you lost.
似乎你失去的一切都没有回来。
But will you get back some of it, yes.
但你会拿回一些吗，是的。
The brain will start to devour more because it's been starved of REM sleep for so long.
大脑会开始吃更多的东西，因为它已经长期缺乏快速眼动睡眠了。
But one of the bigger problems with THC that we worry about is withdrawal dependency.
但我们担心的 THC 更大问题之一是戒断依赖性。
So as you start to use THC for sleep, there can be a dependency tolerance.
因此，当您开始使用 THC 睡眠时，可能会出现依赖性耐受性。
So you start to need more to get the same sleep benefit.
因此，您开始需要更多的睡眠才能获得同样的睡眠益处。
And when you stop using, you usually get a very severe rebound insomnia.
当你停止使用时，你通常会出现非常严重的反弹性失眠。
And in fact, it's so potent that it's typically part of the clinical withdrawal profile from THC, from cannabis.
事实上，它是如此有效，以至于它通常是四氢大麻酚、大麻临床戒断情况的一部分。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And there's anxiety withdrawal.
还有焦虑撤退。
I don't ask anybody to change their behavior.
我不要求任何人改变他们的行为。
Just as you said, we try and inform people about what the science says and let them make choices for themselves.
正如您所说，我们尝试让人们了解科学的说法，并让他们自己做出选择。
People who are regular pot smokers, many will insist they're not addicted, and maybe, indeed, they don't actually follow the profile of classical addiction.
经常吸食大麻的人中，许多人会坚称自己没有上瘾，而且也许他们实际上并没有遵循经典成瘾的规律。
I don't know.
我不知道。
I'm guessing some do, some don't.
我猜有些人会，有些人不会。
But if you ask them, Well, what if I took away all marijuana consumption for, I don't know, two weeks?
但如果你问他们，好吧，如果我在两周内停止吸食所有大麻，我不知道会怎样？
That thought scares many of them.
这个想法让他们中的许多人感到害怕。
And many of them will experience intense anxiety without marijuana, which speaks to perhaps not addiction, but a certain kind of dependency.
他们中的许多人在没有大麻的情况下会经历强烈的焦虑，这也许不是成瘾，而是某种依赖性。
And again, I know many pot smokers, some of whom have jobs that are quite high performing and they manage.
再说一遍，我认识很多吸食大麻的人，其中一些人的工作绩效相当高，而且他们能管理。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Here in Berkeley, I don't know any of those.
在伯克利，我对这些一无所知。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, no, none of those.
是的，不，没有这些。
Right.
正确的。
What about CBD?
CBD 怎么样？
I mean, we hear so much about CBD.
我的意思是，我们听说过很多关于 CBD 的事情。
I've, I've been a little concerned about the fact that the analysis of a lot of CBD supplements out there is confirmed, that much like with melatonin, the levels that are reported on the labels in no way, shape or form match the levels that are actually contained in the various supplements.
我有点担心，对许多 CBD 补充剂的分析已得到证实，就像褪黑激素一样，标签上报告的水平、形状或形式与各种补充剂中实际含有的水平完全不匹配。
Sometimes the levels are much higher than they're reported on the labels.
有时这些含量比标签上报告的含量高得多。
Other times it's much lower.
其他时候则低得多。
What does ingesting CBD do to the architecture and quality of sleep?
摄入 CBD 对睡眠结构和质量有何影响？
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Right now, I don't think we have enough data to make some kind of meaningful sense out of it.
目前，我认为我们没有足够的数据来理解它。
I think the picture that is emerging, however, is probably the following.
然而，我认为正在出现的情况可能如下。
Firstly, CBD does not seem to be detrimental in the same ways that THC is.
首先，CBD 似乎并不像 THC 那样有害。
So we can start by saying, does it create potential problems?
因此，我们可以首先说，它会带来潜在的问题吗？
Not of the nature necessarily that we see with THC, but the devil is a little bit in the details, from the data that we do have.
不一定是我们在 THC 中看到的本质，但从我们现有的数据来看，细节是有问题的。
And it comes onto your valid point of purity.
这涉及到你的有效纯洁点。
At low dose, CBD can seem to be wake-promoting.
在低剂量下，CBD 似乎可以促进清醒。
So in lower doses, let's say sort of five or 10 milligrams — I'm trying to remember some of the studies off the top of my head there — it actually may enhance wakefulness and cause problems with sleep.
因此，在较低剂量下，比如说 5 或 10 毫克——我正在努力记起一些研究——它实际上可能会增强清醒度并导致睡眠问题。
It's only once you get into the higher dose range that there seem to have been some increases in sleepiness or sort of sedation-like increases.
只有当你进入更高的剂量范围时，困倦感似乎才会有所增加，或者出现类似镇静作用的增加。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
And that's usually, I think, above about 25 milligrams, as best I can recall from the data.
我认为，据我从数据中所能记得的最好情况来看，该含量通常高于 25 毫克。
And then when we look in animal models, you typically see the same type of profile too.
然后，当我们观察动物模型时，您通常也会看到相同类型的轮廓。
So then the question becomes ...
那么问题就变成了……
and now again, you just don't know about purity.
现在再说一遍，你只是不知道纯度。
It's very difficult.
这是非常困难的。
Although I think, and again, I'm not a user, not necessarily because I have anything against it.
尽管我再次认为，我不是用户，不一定是因为我反对它。
It's just that's not necessarily my cup of tea.
只是这不一定是我喜欢的。
There are some firms that are now doing third-party independent laboratory tests.
现在有一些公司正在进行第三方独立实验室测试。
I don't know how gamed that is.
我不知道这是怎么玩的。
So I've got no sense of.
所以我没啥感觉
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, I think some supplement companies are quite honest and accurate about the amounts of various substances that are in other products, and some are not.
不，我认为一些补充剂公司对其他产品中各种物质的含量相当诚实和准确，而有些则不然。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I think there's just a huge range.
我认为范围很大。
I think the FDA is starting to explore CBD.
我认为 FDA 正在开始探索 CBD。
There are ...
有...
certainly, I saw some grant announcements to explore the function of CBD.
当然，我看到了一些探索 CBD 功能的资助公告。
Most of the work on CBD is being done by the general public, ingesting it, and seeing how they feel.
CBD 的大部分工作都是由公众完成的，吸收它，看看他们的感受如何。
I gave it to my dog, who was, had some dementia-related sleep disturbances, and it actually created a heightened wakefulness.
我把它给了我的狗，它患有一些与痴呆症相关的睡眠障碍，它实际上导致了高度的清醒。
It completely screwed up his sleep.
这彻底扰乱了他的睡眠。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
It sounds as though he just wasn't-
听起来他好像不是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
He's a bulldog, so he's going to get access to sleep; he's going to take it.
他是一只斗牛犬，所以他可以睡觉；他会接受的。
Really messed him up.
真是把他惹恼了。
Took him, took it away.
把他带走了，带走了。
He did better.
他做得更好。
But that's a canine, so.
但那是一只狗，所以。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Right and it could have been sort of dose-related too-
是的，这也可能与剂量有关-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or binders or other things that are in there.
或者里面有活页夹或其他东西。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Correct.
正确。
Yeah.
是的。
But right now if we were to, and I'm not making this statement — I don't think anyone can make the statement now — but if it ends up being that CBD is potentially beneficial for sleep, how can we reconcile that mechanistically?
但现在如果我们要这样做，而且我不会发表这样的声明——我认为现在没有人可以发表声明——但如果最终结果是 CBD 对睡眠可能有益，我们如何才能从机制上协调这一点呢？
And I think there are, to me at least, there are at least three candidate mechanisms that I've been exploring and thinking about.
我认为，至少对我来说，我一直在探索和思考至少三种候选机制。
The first is that it's thermoregulatory.
首先是它具有温度调节作用。
And what we found in some animal models is that CBD will create a profile of hypothermia.
我们在一些动物模型中发现 CBD 会产生体温过低的现象。
In other words, it calls the body, the core body temperature down.
换句话说，它要求身体的核心体温下降。
And that's something that we know is good for sleep.
我们知道这对睡眠有好处。
The second is that it's an anxiolytic, that it can reduce anxiety.
第二是它是一种抗焦虑药，可以减少焦虑。
And that data is actually quite strong, even with some functional imaging work that's been coming out recently, showing that one epicenter of emotion called the amygdala, deep within the brain, is quietened down with CBD.
这些数据实际上相当有力，即使最近出现的一些功能成像研究表明，大脑深处的一个叫做杏仁核的情绪中心随着 CBD 的作用而平静下来。
So I think that's at least a second nonmutually exclusive ...
所以我认为这至少是第二个非互斥的......
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's great.
太好了。
That's interesting.
那很有意思。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
...
...
you know, possibility.
你知道，可能性。
I think the third is some recent data that's come out that was suggesting that CBD can alter the signaling of adenosine.
我认为第三个是最近出现的一些数据表明 CBD 可以改变腺苷的信号传导。
So it doesn't necessarily mean that you produce more adenosine, but what it can do is perhaps modulate the sensitivity, perhaps, of the brain so that the weight of that same adenosine is weightier in its brain signal and therefore it creates this stronger pressure for sleep.
因此，这并不一定意味着你会产生更多的腺苷，但它能做的也许是调节大脑的敏感性，使相同腺苷的重量在其大脑信号中更重要，因此它会产生更强的睡眠压力。
So I think these are all tentative mechanisms.
所以我认为这些都是尝试性的机制。
I think any one of them is viable.
我认为其中任何一个都是可行的。
I think all three are viable together.
我认为这三者在一起是可行的。
But right now, I think, does that sort of help think through the tapestry of THC and CBD?
但现在，我认为，这是否有助于思考 THC 和 CBD 的织锦？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, very much.
是的，非常喜欢。
And actually it's a perfect segue from, we've talked about caffeine, alcohol, THC and CBD as sort of, we framed them, anyway, as things that done in moderation at the appropriate times are probably okay for most people.
事实上，这是一个完美的延续，我们已经讨论过咖啡因、酒精、THC 和 CBD 之类的东西，无论如何，我们把它们框起来，因为在适当的时间适度地做的事情对大多数人来说可能是没问题的。
Certainly not for everybody.
当然不适合所有人。
There will be differences in sensitivity, but that done at the incorrect times and certainly in the incorrect amount, will greatly disrupt this vital stage of life we call sleep.
敏感度会有所不同，但在不正确的时间和不正确的数量上进行的操作将极大地扰乱我们称为睡眠的生命重要阶段。
CBD, it seems, represents a kind of bridge to the topic I'd like to talk about next, which is things that promote more healthy sleep or somehow contribute to enhancing the architecture and quality of sleep.
CBD 似乎代表了我接下来要讨论的主题的一种桥梁，即促进更健康的睡眠或以某种方式有助于增强睡眠的结构和质量的东西。
So I'd love to chat for a moment about the kind of grand ...
所以我很想聊聊那种盛大的......
the original, I should say that, not the granddaddy, but the OG of sleep supplementation, which is melatonin.
原来，我应该说的，不是爷爷，而是补充睡眠的OG，这就是褪黑素。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The so-called hormone of darkness that's inhibited by light, et cetera.
被光等抑制的所谓黑暗荷尔蒙。
Frame for us melatonin in the context of its naturally occurring form.
为我们介绍褪黑激素的自然存在形式。
And then I'd like to talk about melatonin, the supplement, because, as in my experience, anytime I say the word melatonin, people think about the supplement melatonin, which in itself is an interesting phenomenon, that people are so queued to its role as something you take.
然后我想谈谈褪黑激素补充剂，因为根据我的经验，每当我说褪黑激素这个词时，人们都会想到褪黑激素补充剂，这本身就是一个有趣的现象，人们对它的作用如此排队，就像你服用的东西一样。
We often forget that this is something that we make endogenously.
我们经常忘记这是我们内生的。
I'd love for you to comment in particular on ...
我希望您能特别评论...
even though we ...
即使我们...
Without necessarily getting into its precise nanograms per deciliter values, what are the typical amounts of melatonin that we release each night?
不必了解其精确的纳克每分升值，我们每晚释放的褪黑激素的典型量是多少？
And then I'd like to compare that to what is contained in say a three.
然后我想将其与“三”中包含的内容进行比较。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then I'd like to compare that to what is contained in say a three milligram or six milligram tablet that one might buy at the pharmacy.
然后我想将其与人们在药房购买的三毫克或六毫克片剂中的成分进行比较。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Right.
对。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So I go to sleep at night, has melatonin already kicked in before I shut my eyes and lay down my head?
那么我晚上睡觉的时候，在我闭上眼睛、放下头之前，褪黑素已经开始发挥作用了吗？
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Usually yes.
通常是的。
If your system is working in the correct way, as dusk is starting to happen.
如果您的系统在黄昏开始时以正确的方式工作。
So let's say that you look at hunter gatherer tribes who aren't touched by electricity, and so they're sort of the puritanical state par excellence when it comes to electric light influence.
假设你看到没有接触过电的狩猎采集部落，所以当谈到电光影响时，他们是一种典型的清教徒国家。
And usually it's as dusk is approaching, that's when melatonin will start to rise.
通常，当黄昏临近时，褪黑激素就会开始上升。
And so when you lose the brake pedal of light coming through the eyes — that normally acts like a hard brake pedal that stamps down and prevents the release and production of melatonin.
因此，当你失去刹车踏板时，光线会透过眼睛——通常会像一个硬刹车踏板一样，踩下并阻止褪黑激素的释放和产生。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
As that light brake pedal starts to fade with dusk, then we ease off the brake pedal, and the spigot of melatonin is opened up, and melatonin starts getting released.
随着黄昏的到来，轻微的制动踏板开始减弱，然后我们松开制动踏板，褪黑激素的龙头被打开，褪黑激素开始释放。
And usually we'll see this rising peak of melatonin sometime, usually an hour, two hours later, or around.
通常我们会在某个时候看到褪黑激素的上升峰值，通常是一个小时、两个小时后或左右。
And it varies from different people around the time of sleep itself, but it's already been on the march-
睡眠时间本身因人而异，但它已经在进行中了——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Interesting.
有趣。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
For some hours before you actually hit sleep itself.
在你真正入睡之前的几个小时。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Interesting.
有趣。
And I was always taught, and I'm assuming it's still true, that the only source of melatonin in the brain and body is the pineal gland.
我总是被教导，并且我认为这仍然是正确的，大脑和身体中褪黑激素的唯一来源是松果体。
Is that still true?
这仍然是真的吗？
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Yeah, it seems to be, from best that we can tell.
是的，据我们所知，似乎是这样。
The pineal gland, sort of meaning P-like sort of shape.
松果体，有点像 P 状的形状。
Usually people say it's P-like.
通常人们说它是P型的。
I think if you look at the Latin derivative, I think it's derived from pine cone, not Pea.
我想如果你看一下拉丁语的衍生词，我认为它源自松果，而不是豌豆。
Because, in fact, if you look at the pineal, it is more pine cone-shaped, and so it's aptly named.
因为，事实上，如果你观察松果体，它的形状更像是松果，所以它的名字很恰当。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Any human brain I've ever dissected ,or I confess I've dissected a lot because I teach neuroanatomy and have for years, I love looking at the pineal.
我曾经解剖过的任何人脑，或者我承认我解剖过很多次，因为我多年来一直教授神经解剖学，我喜欢观察松果体。
It's the one structure in the brain that's not on both sides.
它是大脑中的一个结构，不存在于两侧。
It's usually pretty easy to find, and it's pretty good size.
通常很容易找到，而且尺寸也很大。
It looks like a pea.
它看起来像豌豆。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it's sitting right there, and it's remarkable that it releases this hormone probably our entire lifespan and is inhibited by light.
它就在那里，值得注意的是，它可能会在我们的整个生命周期中释放这种激素，并且会被光抑制。
So our pineal starts to release this into the general circulation.
所以我们的松果体开始将其释放到全身循环中。
I have to imagine we have melatonin receptors in the brain and body.
我必须想象我们的大脑和身体里都有褪黑激素受体。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Correct.
正确。
So yeah.
所以是的。
Essentially your brain has a central master 24-hour clock called the suprachiasmatic nucleus that keeps internal time.
本质上，您的大脑有一个称为视交叉上核的 24 小时中央主时钟，负责保持内部时间。
Now it's not a precise clock if left to its own devices, nothing that a Swiss clock maker would be proud of.
现在，如果让它自行其是，它就不是一个精确的时钟，瑞士钟表制造商不会为此感到自豪。
It runs a little bit long and laggy.
它运行时间有点长而且有点滞后。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's like an American clock.
就像美国的钟一样。
There are a couple good American watches, by the way.
顺便说一下，有几款不错的美国手表。
Hamiltons are very nice.
汉密尔顿人非常好。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
It's very much like a-
这很像一个——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We're not famous for our timekeeping, or our punctuality, for that matter.
就此而言，我们并不以守时或守时而闻名。
But the Swiss are.
但瑞士人是。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
It's not quite Swisslike it's more Berkeleylike, which is very relaxed, whatever.
它不太像瑞士，而更像伯克利，无论如何，那里都很放松。
So in most adults, in the average adult, I should say, your biological clock normally runs a little bit long.
所以对于大多数成年人来说，我应该说，对于普通成年人来说，你的生物钟通常会运行得有点长。
It's about 24 hours and 13 minutes, I think was the last calculation.
大约是24小时13分钟，我想这是最后的计算。
But the reason that we don't keep drifting forward in time and kind of running consistently later and later, 30 minutes by 30 minutes by 30 minutes each day, is because your central brain clock is regulated by external things, such as daylight and temperature, as well as food and activity.
但我们之所以不会在时间上不断向前漂移，而是不断地越来越晚地跑步，每天 30 分钟 x 30 分钟 x 30 分钟，是因为你的中枢大脑时钟受到外部事物的调节，例如日光和温度，以及食物和活动。
All of these are essentially different fingers that come along, and on the wristwatch of the 24-hour clock, we'll pull the dial out and reset it each day to precisely 24 hours.
所有这些本质上都是不同的手指出现的，在 24 小时时钟的手表上，我们将拉出表盘并将其每天重置为精确的 24 小时。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
And I make that point because it knows 24-hour time, but it needs to tell the rest of the brain and the body the 24-hour time as well.
我之所以这么说，是因为它知道 24 小时时间，但它也需要告诉大脑和身体的其他部分 24 小时时间。
And one of the ways that it does this is by communicating a chemical signal of 24-hour nurse of light and day using this hormone melatonin.
它做到这一点的方法之一是通过使用褪黑激素来传递 24 小时光和日间护士的化学信号。
And when it is at low levels or it's non-existent, it's communicating the message, it's daytime, and for us, diurnal species, it says it's time to be awake.
当它处于低水平或不存在时，它正在传达信息，现在是白天，对于我们这些白天活动的物种来说，它告诉我们是时候醒来了。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Yet at nighttime when dusk approaches and the brake comes off melatonin, and we start to release it, then it signals to the rest of the brain and the body, look it's dusk and it's nighttime.
然而到了晚上，当黄昏临近时，褪黑激素就会停止作用，我们开始释放它，然后它向大脑和身体的其他部分发出信号，看，黄昏了，是夜间了。
And for us, diurnal species, it's time to think about sleep.
对于我们这些白天活动的物种来说，是时候考虑一下睡眠了。
So melatonin essentially tells the brain and the body when it's day and when it's night, and with that, when it's time to sleep, when it's time to wake, and therefore that's why melatonin helps with the timing of the onset of sleep.
因此，褪黑激素本质上告诉大脑和身体什么时候是白天，什么时候是晚上，以及什么时候该睡觉，什么时候该醒来，因此这就是为什么褪黑激素有助于确定睡眠开始的时间。
But it doesn't really help with the generation of sleep itself.
但它对睡眠本身的产生并没有真正的帮助。
And this is why we'll come onto what those studies of supplementation have taught us.
这就是为什么我们要了解这些补充剂研究所教给我们的内容。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So it tells the rest of my brain and body it's time to go to sleep.
所以它告诉我的大脑和身体的其他部分是时候睡觉了。
It perhaps even aids with the transition to sleep, but it's not going to, for instance, ensure the overall structure of sleep, or it's not the conductor that's guiding the sleep orchestra, so to speak, throughout the entire night.
它甚至可能有助于向睡眠的过渡，但它不会，例如，确保睡眠的整体结构，或者可以说，整个晚上都不是指挥睡眠管弦乐队的。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's more like the people that essentially take you to your seat and sit you down and give you your program.
它更像是那些基本上把你带到你的座位上并让你坐下并给你你的程序的人。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Right, exactly.
对，完全正确。
Yeah.
是的。
Sort of the far less sophisticated analogy I have is melatonin is the starting official at the hundred-meter race in the Olympics.
我的一个不太复杂的类比是，褪黑激素是奥运会百米比赛的首发官员。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's a better analogy.
这是一个更好的比喻。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
It calls all of the sleep racers to the line, and it begins the great sleep race.
它号召所有的睡眠竞赛者到终点线，并开始了伟大的睡眠竞赛。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Better analogy by the way.
顺便说一句更好的类比。
Coming from a sleep researcher of all people.
来自所有人的睡眠研究者。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
But it doesn't participate in the race itself.
但它本身并不参加比赛。
That's a whole different set of brain chemicals and brain regions.
这是一套完全不同的大脑化学物质和大脑区域。
Which then brings us onto perhaps the question of supplementation, which is, is it helpful for my sleep?
这也许给我们带来了补充的问题，即它对我的睡眠有帮助吗？
Will I sleep longer?
我会睡得更久吗？
Will I sleep better?
我会睡得更好吗？
And if I am, what doses should I be taking?
如果是的话，我应该服用什么剂量？
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Sadly, the evidence in healthy adults who are not older age suggests that melatonin is not really particularly helpful as a sleep aid.
遗憾的是，针对年龄不较大的健康成年人的证据表明，褪黑激素作为睡眠辅助剂并不是特别有帮助。
I think there was a recent meta-analysis that demonstrated — it looked at all of the different sleep parameters — melatonin, and a meta-analysis, for those not knowing what that is, it's a scientific sort of method that we use where we gather all the individual studies, and we put them in a big bucket, and we kind of do this kind of statistical fancy sleight of hand, and we try to come up with a big picture of what all of those individual studies tell us.
我认为最近有一项荟萃分析表明——它着眼于所有不同的睡眠参数——褪黑激素，对于那些不知道褪黑素是什么的人来说，荟萃分析是一种科学方法，我们使用这种方法收集所有单独的研究，然后将它们放在一个大桶中，我们进行这种统计上的奇特技巧，并试图对所有这些单独的研究告诉我们的内容有一个全面的了解。
And what that meta-analysis told us is that melatonin will only increase total amount of sleep by 3.9 minutes on average.
荟萃分析告诉我们，褪黑激素只会平均增加 3.9 分钟的总睡眠时间。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Minutes?
分钟？
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Minutes.
分钟。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Not even percent.
连百分比都没有。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
No. And it will only increase your sleep efficiency by 2.2%.
不会。而且它只会让你的睡眠效率提高 2.2%。
So it really-
所以它真的——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This is, as they say in certain parts of California, that's weak sauce.
正如加州某些地区的人所说，这是一种淡酱。
That's a weak sauce-effect.
这是一种微弱的酱汁效应。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
The sauce is not strong; the force is not strong in this one; when it comes to a tool that in healthy people who are not of older age, it doesn't seem to be especially beneficial.
酱汁不浓；这个力量并不强；对于年龄不大的健康人来说，它似乎并不是特别有益。
Now results can vary.
现在结果可能会有所不同。
Everyone is different, of course.
当然，每个人都不同。
So we're talking about the so-called average human adult here.
所以我们在这里谈论的是所谓的普通成年人。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well melatonin, in defense of what you're saying ...
好吧，褪黑激素，为你所说的话辩护......
And also I should mention I have a colleague at Stanford, Jamie Zeitzer, who you know-
我还应该提到我在斯坦福大学有一位同事杰米·蔡泽尔（Jamie Zeitzer），你认识他——
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Oh, wonderful.
哦，太棒了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Chuck Czeisler's lab, at Harvard Med, where he also trained — terrific sleep researcher — and I asked him about melatonin, and he essentially said the same thing that you just said, which is very little if any evidence that it can improve sleep.
查克·蔡斯勒（Chuck Czeisler）在哈佛医学院的实验室，他也在那里接受过培训——一位出色的睡眠研究员——我向他询问了褪黑激素的情况，他基本上说了和你刚才说的一样的话，这几乎没有证据表明它可以改善睡眠。
And yet it's probably the most commonly consumed so-called sleep aid.
然而，它可能是最常食用的所谓睡眠辅助品。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Hundreds of million dollars industry.
数亿美元的产业。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
So it, either massive placebo effect, or it's operating through some other mechanism related to quelling anxiety, perhaps?
那么，它要么是巨大的安慰剂效应，要么是通过与平息焦虑相关的其他机制起作用？
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Yeah, that's is actually interesting.
是的，这确实很有趣。
There are some studies where you do see some effects.
有一些研究确实看到了一些效果。
Now again, when you do the grand average of all studies, it just doesn't seem to have an effect.
现在，当你对所有研究进行总平均时，它似乎并没有产生效果。
But let's assume that for some people it does have an effect.
但我们假设它对某些人确实有影响。
Let's not again be sort of completely dismissive of that.
我们不要再对此完全不屑一顾了。
How could it have that effect?
怎么可能有这样的效果呢？
One of the reasons that I've become a little bit more bullish on melatonin from a sleep perspective, and then melatonin, more generally, for a — maybe we can speak about this too — as a countermeasure when you're undergoing insufficient sleep; there are two different routes there.
从睡眠的角度来看，我对褪黑激素更加看好，然后更普遍地看好褪黑激素，原因之一是——也许我们也可以谈论这一点——作为睡眠不足时的一种对策；那里有两条不同的路线。
The first reason that I think it could have a sleep benefit for some people is not because it helps in the generation of sleep.
我认为它对某些人有睡眠益处的第一个原因并不是因为它有助于睡眠。
We know that it doesn't.
我们知道事实并非如此。
It's because it too seems to drop core body temperature.
这是因为它似乎也会降低核心体温。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There it is, temperature again.
又来了，温度。
I'm fascinated these days more and more by temperature, as maybe not just a reflection of brain state and wakefulness and in sleep, but actually a lever that is quite powerful.
这些天我对温度越来越着迷，因为它可能不仅仅是大脑状态、清醒度和睡眠状态的反映，而且实际上是一个非常强大的杠杆。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
I think it's both.
我认为两者都是。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And with all the interest in ice baths and hot showers and saunas and stuff, something that we will definitely touch on, temperature variation is so key.
由于人们对冰浴、热水淋浴、桑拿之类的东西很感兴趣，我们肯定会涉及到温度变化，所以温度变化非常关键。
So if melatonin is dropping body temperature by a degree or so, something that you've said before can help induce a sleepy state, maybe that's what's allowing people to get in-
因此，如果褪黑激素使体温降低了一度左右，你之前说过的一些东西可以帮助诱发困倦状态，也许这就是让人们进入的原因——
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
That's one possibility.
这是一种可能性。
I don't think melatonin by itself will drop it by, sort of, a degree, certainly not a degree Celsius.
我认为褪黑激素本身不会使体温下降一度，当然不会下降摄氏度。
And for ordering us to fall asleep and then stay asleep across the night, we do need to drop our core body temperature by about one degree Celsius or about two to three degrees Fahrenheit.
为了让我们入睡并整夜保持睡眠状态，我们确实需要将核心体温降低约一摄氏度或约两到三华氏度。
And that's why it's always easier to fall asleep in a room that's too cold than too hot.
这就是为什么在太冷的房间里总是比太热的房间更容易入睡。
I think that that's one potential avenue that we are considering thinking more deeply about when it comes to melatonin.
我认为这是我们在褪黑激素方面正在考虑更深入思考的一个潜在途径。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
And then the other is melatonin as an antioxidant.
另一种是褪黑激素作为抗氧化剂。
But let me table that for now because I'll just get us sidetracked.
但让我暂时搁置这个问题，因为我只会让我们偏离正轨。
That's what we know so far about melatonin, in terms of its supplementation benefit or lack thereof.
这就是我们迄今为止对褪黑激素的了解，无论是补充还是缺乏。
Two final points that I shouldn't forget.
我不应该忘记最后两点。
One is the only population where we typically see some benefit, and it often is prescribed, is in older adults.
其中一个是我们通常会看到一些益处的唯一人群，而且通常是针对老年人。
Because as-
因为作为——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Older meaning 60 and older?
老年是指60岁以上吗？
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Yeah.
是的。
Sixty, 65 and older.
六十岁、六十五岁以上。
Because as we get older, you can typically have what's called calcification of the pineal gland, which means that that gland that's releasing melatonin doesn't work as well anymore.
因为随着年龄的增长，通常会出现所谓的松果体钙化，这意味着释放褪黑激素的腺体不再发挥作用。
As a consequence, they tend to have a flatter overall curve of melatonin released throughout the night.
因此，他们整个晚上释放的褪黑激素的整体曲线往往更平坦。
It's not this beautiful lovely peak and this bullhorn message of, It's darkness, please get to sleep.
这不是这座美丽可爱的山峰和扩音器的信息，“现在很黑，请睡觉。”
That's why older adults can have problems falling asleep or staying asleep.
这就是为什么老年人可能会出现入睡或保持睡眠问题的原因。
It's not the only reason, by any stretch of the imagination, but it's one of the reasons, and it's why melatonin implementation in those cohorts, older adults, especially older adults with insomnia, people have thought about that as maybe an appropriate use case.
无论怎么想，这都不是唯一的原因，但它是原因之一，这就是为什么在这些人群、老年人，尤其是患有失眠症的老年人中使用褪黑激素，人们认为这可能是一个合适的用例。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, along those lines, if we were to compare dosages, do we know how much melatonin is typically released into the bloodstream per night, and can we use that as a rule of thumb by which to compare the typical amount that someone would supplement?
好吧，沿着这些思路，如果我们要比较剂量，我们是否知道每晚通常会释放多少褪黑激素到血液中，我们是否可以使用它作为经验法则来比较某人会补充的典型量？
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I mean, typically the supplements for melatonin that I see in the pharmacy and elsewhere, and online range — anywhere from one milligram to 12 or even 20 milligrams.
我的意思是，通常我在药房和其他地方以及网上看到的褪黑激素补充剂的范围从 1 毫克到 12 甚至 20 毫克不等。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
My guess is that a normal night's release of melatonin typical for somebody in their twenties, thirties, forties would be far lower than that.
我的猜测是，对于二十多岁、三十几岁、四十多岁的人来说，正常晚上释放的褪黑激素会远远低于这个数字。
Am I correct or wrong?
我是对还是错？
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Yeah, it's at many magnitudes lower.
是的，它要低很多。
And this is one of the problems is that I see that too.
这就是问题之一，我也看到了这一点。
I see typical doses are five milligrams or 10 milligrams, and of course if you're a supplement company putting 10 milligrams, versus five milligrams if that's what you're actually doing, which we'll speak about purity as well, it's kind of like the super gulp size.
我看到典型的剂量是 5 毫克或 10 毫克，当然，如果你是一家补充剂公司，则投入 10 毫克，而如果你实际做的是 5 毫克，我们也会谈论纯度，这有点像超级吞咽量。
Nobody wants to lower price, we'll just give you more for the same price, and that's how we'll compete.
没有人愿意降低价格，我们只会以相同的价格为您提供更多，这就是我们的竞争方式。
So it's been this escalating arms race of melatonin concentration, and it really does not look meaningful for sleep in anyway.
因此，褪黑激素浓度的军备竞赛不断升级，无论如何，它看起来对睡眠确实没有意义。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
What we've actually found is that the optimal doses for where you do get sleep benefits in the populations that we've looked at are somewhere between 0.1 and 0.3 milligrams of melatonin.
我们实际上发现，在我们研究的人群中，获得睡眠益处的最佳褪黑激素剂量在 0.1 至 0.3 毫克之间。
In other words, the typical doses are usually 10 times, 20 times, maybe more than what your body would naturally expect.
换句话说，典型的剂量通常是您身体自然预期的 10 倍、20 倍，甚至可能更多。
And this is what we call a supraphysiological dose.
这就是我们所说的超生理剂量。
In other words, it's far above what is physiologically normal.
换句话说，它远远高于生理正常值。
And to put that in context, imagine I said to you, I want you to eat 20 times as much food today.
结合上下文来看，想象一下我对你说，我希望你今天吃 20 倍的食物。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I thought you were going to use testosterone as example.
我以为你会用睾酮作为例子。
You're going to take 300 times the normal amount of testosterone.
您将服用正常量 300 倍的睾酮。
We know that would have tons of deleterious effects, be terrible.
我们知道这会产生大量的有害影响，非常可怕。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And yet you can do this.
但你可以做到这一点。
One thing that I'm concerned about these supraphysiological levels of melatonin is that many years ago, actually here at Berkeley when I was a graduate student, we would inject animals, which were seasonally breeding animals, with melatonin.
我对褪黑激素的超生理水平感到担忧的一件事是，很多年前，实际上当我还是伯克利的研究生时，我们会给动物（季节性繁殖的动物）注射褪黑激素。
And the consequence of that was that their gonads, either their testes or ovaries, would shrink many hundredfold or more.
其结果是，它们的性腺，无论是睾丸还是卵巢，都会缩小数百倍甚至更多。
In other words, that they would go from having nice healthy-sized hamster testicles, what a hamster would consider healthy size, for a hamster, and they would shrink to the size of a grain of rice.
换句话说，它们将从拥有健康大小的仓鼠睾丸（仓鼠认为健康的大小）变为仓鼠的健康大小，然后缩小到一粒米的大小。
So from an almond to size of a grain of rice.
所以从杏仁到米粒大小。
I had to see that only once for me to be very concerned about supraphysiological levels of melatonin.
我只需要看到一次就可以非常担心褪黑激素的超生理水平。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I realized that melatonin does different things in different species.
我意识到褪黑激素对不同物种有不同的作用。
We are not hamsters; we are not seasonally restricted breeders.
我们不是仓鼠；我们不是季节性限制的饲养员。
There might be more breeding during certain seasons.
在某些季节可能会有更多的繁殖。
I don't know those data, but nonetheless, hormones are powerful, and, sure, there is an optimal, and sometimes we see that going slightly above endogenous levels, for certain hormones, not always, can have beneficial effects, and sometimes it can have detrimental effects.
我不知道这些数据，但尽管如此，激素是强大的，而且，当然，有一个最佳的，有时我们看到，对于某些激素来说，略高于内源水平，但并不总是会产生有益的影响，有时可能会产生有害的影响。
I'm just concerned about taking high levels of a hormone that has effects on the reproductive axis.
我只是担心服用高浓度的激素会影响生殖轴。
And that's one of the reasons why I get very concerned when I see people really getting aggressive about melatonin supplementation, taking 100, 10, 500, sometimes even 10,000 times the amount that we would normally release.
这就是为什么当我看到人们真正积极地补充褪黑激素时，我感到非常担心的原因之一，他们服用的褪黑激素剂量是我们通常释放量的 100、10、500，有时甚至是 10,000 倍。
That's my concern, although it's not nested in any one specific human study; I certainly don't want to see other people, and I don't want to personally, take a hormone that's known to be androgen-suppressive at high levels.
这是我关心的问题，尽管它并不包含在任何一项特定的人类研究中。我当然不想见其他人，我也不想亲自服用一种已知高水平雄激素抑制的激素。
Why would I take that?
我为什么要这么做？
That's the question I ask myself.
这就是我问自己的问题。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
I think it's a very good point.
我认为这是一个非常好的观点。
And if you look at some of the evidence around melatonin's lethality, if you want to go to that extreme — for the most part it's pretty safe.
如果你看看有关褪黑激素致命性的一些证据，如果你想达到那个极端——在大多数情况下它是相当安全的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You mean you can take a lot of it before you die?
你的意思是你可以在死前服用很多吗？
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Right.
对。
Exactly.
确切地。
Yeah.
是的。
But-
但是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I rather that's-
我宁愿那是——
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
That should not be your yardstick because you really need to think about your health, not just whether the thing is going to kill you or not as the decision matrix through which you pop a pill.
这不应该成为你的衡量标准，因为你真的需要考虑你的健康，而不仅仅是这个东西是否会杀死你，作为你服用药丸的决策矩阵。
And it comes onto this concern around melatonin because there was a study, I think it's one that you mentioned too, where they looked at over, I think it was at least over 20 different brands of melatonin supplements.
这涉及到对褪黑激素的担忧，因为有一项研究，我想你也提到过，他们研究了至少 20 多个不同品牌的褪黑激素补充剂。
And what they found is that based on what it said on the bottle versus what was in the capsules themselves, it ranged from, I think it was 83% less than what it said on the bottle to 478% more than what it said on the bottle.
他们发现，根据瓶子上的说明与胶囊本身的说明，我认为它比瓶子上的说明少了 83%，而比瓶子上的说明多了 478%。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Now if that's a 10 milligram pill, and it's 478% more than 10 milligrams, and we're already at 10 milligrams at many tens of times more than is a physiological rather than a supraphysiological dose, we do need to be a bit thoughtful.
现在，如果这是一颗 10 毫克的药丸，它比 10 毫克多了 478%，而我们的 10 毫克剂量已经是生理剂量而不是超生理剂量的数十倍，我们确实需要深思熟虑。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Remember those hamsters, folks.
伙计们，记住那些仓鼠。
Well, and I do appreciate the deep dive on melatonin because I think people need to understand that it's nuanced, it's a matter of dosages and timing, et cetera, and that it may have its place, as you mentioned, in older individuals.
嗯，我确实很欣赏对褪黑激素的深入研究，因为我认为人们需要了解它的微妙之处，这是剂量和时间等的问题，并且正如您提到的，它可能在老年人中占有一席之地。
And I should mention that I'm an avid consumer of supplements that I believe in for me, and I have been for a very long time.
我应该提到的是，我是我相信的补充剂的狂热消费者，而且我已经这样做了很长一段时间。
So I'm by no means antisupplement.
所以我绝不反对补充。
Some supplements I refuse to take or avoid taking, others I quite avidly take.
有些补充剂我拒绝服用或避免服用，而另一些我则非常热衷于服用。
And along those lines, I personally, and I don't know what your thoughts on this are, but there are a few things that I've personally found beneficial.
沿着这些思路，我个人，我不知道你对此有何想法，但我个人发现有一些有益的事情。
I'd love your thoughts on them, and I would love it if you would tell me that everything I'm about to refer to is placebo, that would be fine.
我很想听听你对它们的看法，如果你能告诉我我要提到的一切都是安慰剂，那就太好了。
So that's what we do.
这就是我们所做的。
We're scientists, we argue, and then we remain friends in, as it goes.
我们争辩说，我们是科学家，然后我们仍然是朋友。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Always.
总是。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So magnesium.
所以镁。
There are many forms of magnesium.
镁有多种形式。
Magnesium citrate is, as we know, is a terrific laxative.
众所周知，柠檬酸镁是一种极好的泻药。
Magnesium malate seems, at least from a few studies, seems to relieve some of delayed onset muscle soreness.
至少从一些研究来看，苹果酸镁似乎可以缓解一些迟发性肌肉酸痛。
Doesn't seem to create a kind of sedation.
似乎不会产生某种镇静作用。
Two forms of magnesium that I'm aware of, magnesium bisglycinate and magnesium threonate ...
我所知道的两种形式的镁，双甘氨酸镁和苏糖酸镁......
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
we believe based on the data can more actively cross the blood brain barrier.
我们相信基于这些数据可以更积极地跨越血脑屏障。
So you put it in your gut, but some of that needs to get into your brain in order to have the sedative effect.
所以你把它放在你的肠道里，但其中一些需要进入你的大脑才能产生镇静作用。
What are your thoughts on magnesium supplementation?
您对补充镁有何看法？
Do you supplement with magnesium?
你补充镁吗？
And what studies would you like to see done if they haven't been done already?
如果尚未完成的话，您希望完成哪些研究？
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
So I don't supplement with magnesium, but I do think threonate is interesting because of that higher capacity to cross the brain barrier and actually have a central nervous system effect.
所以我不补充镁，但我确实认为苏糖酸盐很有趣，因为它具有更高的穿过脑屏障的能力，并且实际上具有中枢神经系统作用。
And the reason that that interests me is because the ...
我感兴趣的原因是因为......
sleep is by the brain, of the brain and also for the brain as well as for the body.
睡眠是大脑的睡眠，是大脑的睡眠，也是大脑和身体的睡眠。
We just don't have a particularly good set of studies that have targeted exclusively threonate.
我们只是没有一套专门针对苏糖酸盐的特别好的研究。
We do have lots of studies that have just looked at magnesium, in general, for sleep.
我们确实有很多研究只是关注镁对睡眠的总体影响。
And overall the data is uncompelling.
总体而言，这些数据并不具有说服力。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Interesting.
有趣。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
And for a while I was confused as to why, where did this come from?
有一段时间我很困惑，为什么，这是从哪里来的？
This kind of myth of magnesium.
这种关于镁的神话。
So I started looking back into the literature, and I've best traced it, at least as far as I can tell, to early studies showing that those who were deficient in magnesium also had sleep problems.
所以我开始回顾文献，至少据我所知，我最好追溯到早期的研究，这些研究表明那些缺乏镁的人也有睡眠问题。
They had other problems too, of course, but sleep problems were one of that set of sequelae that came from having lower magnesium.
当然，他们还有其他问题，但睡眠问题是镁含量较低带来的一系列后遗症之一。
And when they supplemented with magnesium and tried to restore those levels, some of those sleep problems dissipated.
当他们补充镁并试图恢复这些水平时，一些睡眠问题就消失了。
And then that seems to have gotten lost in some game of sort of whispers around the room.
然后，这似乎在房间里的某种窃窃私语游戏中消失了。
And it's become translated into people who don't have sleep problems, who are healthy sleepers and who are healthy, in general, and who have healthy, normal levels of magnesium — if they take more magnesium, they will sleep better.
它已经转化为那些没有睡眠问题的人，那些睡眠健康的人，那些总体上身体健康的人，那些镁含量健康、正常的人——如果他们摄入更多的镁，他们就会睡得更好。
And the data, really, there is not good.
而且数据确实不好。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Interesting.
有趣。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Once again, the only study that I've seen where magnesium did have some efficacy was in a study with older adults.
再一次，我所见过的唯一一项镁确实具有一定功效的研究是针对老年人的研究。
I think they were 60 to 80 years old; it may have been exclusively women, now I think about it, and they also had insomnia.
我认为他们的年龄是60到80岁；可能都是女性吧，现在想来，她们也有失眠的情况。
And in that population, you did see some benefits.
在这个人群中，你确实看到了一些好处。
And my guess is that because it's an older community as well, they were probably deficient in magnesium.
我的猜测是，因为这也是一个较古老的社区，他们可能缺乏镁。
So they fit the former category of simply when you're deficient, and you restore, you can help sleep sort of return to normal.
因此，它们符合前一类，即当您缺乏营养时，如果您恢复，就可以帮助睡眠恢复正常。
But if you are not deficient, and you are healthy and you're not old, and you don't have insomnia, and you are supplementing thinking that it provides sleep, right now the data isn't supportive of that.
但如果你不缺乏营养，你身体健康，你不老，你没有失眠，你正在补充认为它可以提供睡眠，那么现在的数据并不支持这一点。
But I just don't think we have enough threonate data to actually speak about that because it could just be a blood brain barrier issue so far with the other forms.
但我只是认为我们没有足够的苏糖酸数据来真正谈论这一点，因为到目前为止，其他形式可能只是血脑屏障问题。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So maybe some additional studies looking specifically at threonate or bisglycinate would be useful.
因此，也许一些专门针对苏糖酸盐或双甘氨酸盐的额外研究会很有用。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
I'd love to have, yeah.
我很想拥有，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And magnesium's involved in so many cellular processes.
镁参与许多细胞过程。
You can imagine that this effect, if it truly exists is, as we say in science, in the noise.
你可以想象，如果这种效应确实存在，正如我们在科学中所说的那样，它就存在于噪音中。
Meaning it's in the jitter of the data.
这意味着它存在于数据的抖动中。
But to isolate the real effect, one needs to do some more refined studies.
但为了找出真正的影响，我们需要做一些更精细的研究。
What are some things that are of interest to you, if not things that you happen to take?
如果不是您碰巧拿走的东西，那么哪些东西是您感兴趣的？
These are not things that I personally take, mostly because I just haven't experimented with them.
这些都不是我个人所接受的，主要是因为我还没有尝试过。
Valerian root is one.
缬草根就是其中之一。
Tart cherry and kiwifruit.
酸樱桃和猕猴桃。
Tell me about valerian root, tart cherry and kiwifruit.
告诉我有关缬草根、酸樱桃和猕猴桃的信息。
This is new to me.
这对我来说是新的。
I mean I've certainly heard of them, and tart cherry and kiwi sounds delicious.
我的意思是我肯定听说过它们，酸樱桃和猕猴桃听起来很美味。
But what's happening with valerian root, tart cherry and kiwi.
但缬草根、酸樱桃和猕猴桃的情况又如何呢？
And are we talking about eating tart cherries and kiwis and valarian roots?
我们是在谈论吃酸樱桃、猕猴桃和缬草根吗？
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or are we talking about taking them in pill form?
或者我们正在谈论以药丸形式服用它们？
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Usually it's supplements, but it's also, both for tart cherries and for kiwis, it's the actual fruit themselves.
通常它是补充剂，但对于酸樱桃和猕猴桃来说，它也是真正的水果本身。
Valerian often touted as a beneficial sleep aid, and lots of people swear by it too, but the evidence is actually quite against that.
缬草经常被吹捧为有益的睡眠辅助剂，很多人也对它深信不疑，但实际上证据却完全反对这一点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh really?
哦，真的吗？
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Not that it makes your sleep worse, but of at least the seven good studies that I've been able to find, and typically these are of the nature of what we call a randomized placebo crossover design.
并不是说它会让你的睡眠变得更糟，而是至少我能找到七项很好的研究，通常这些研究属于我们所说的随机安慰剂交叉设计的性质。
And I won't bore people with what that means.
我不会让人们厌倦这意味着什么。
It's sort of one-
这有点像——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Good study.
好好学习。
Solid study.
扎实的学习。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Yeah.
是的。
It's one of the sort of gold standard methods that we have, when we're looking at intervention studies such as drug studies.
当我们研究药物研究等干预研究时，这是我们拥有的黄金标准方法之一。
Five of the seven found no benefit of valerian root on sleep.
七人中的五人发现缬草根对睡眠没有任何好处。
Then two out of the seven, the data was just insufficient.
那么七个中的两个，数据就不够了。
I think it was a power issue where they just couldn't make any strong conclusions.
我认为这是一个权力问题，他们无法得出任何强有力的结论。
And then I think there was, the most recent study, I think looked at two different doses of valerian, and I could have this wrong, and they just failed to find any effects, once again.
然后我认为最近的研究，我认为研究了两种不同剂量的缬草，我可能会错，他们只是再次未能发现任何效果。
But the stunning part of that paper, as I recall, they had this big table with all of the different sleep metrics that they looked at, and there were well over 25 different things that they tried to see if valerian impacted.
但我记得那篇论文中令人惊叹的部分是，他们有一张大表，上面列出了他们研究的所有不同的睡眠指标，并且他们尝试了超过 25 种不同的东西来看看缬草是否会产生影响。
And none of them were significant.
而且它们都不重要。
Which stunned me because from statistical probabilities, we know if you just randomly performed 25 statistical tests, chances are, probabilistically, you'll just get one significant result by random chance.
这让我感到震惊，因为从统计概率来看，我们知道如果您随机执行 25 项统计测试，从概率上讲，您很可能会随机获得一个显着结果。
And even with random chance on their side, they still couldn't find a benefit of valerian.
即使有随机的机会，他们仍然找不到缬草的好处。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So valerian root might be worse than nothing at all, so to speak.
所以可以这么说，缬草根可能比什么都没有更糟糕。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
I mean, again, placebo effect, we can think about that too.
我的意思是，安慰剂效应，我们也可以考虑一下。
And I would say that if you feel as though it's having a benefit for you, and with all of the caveats that we have with supplements, things like melatonin, purity, concentration, et cetera, maybe it's no harm, no foul.
我想说，如果你觉得它对你有好处，并且考虑到我们对补充剂的所有警告，例如褪黑激素、纯度、浓度等，也许它没有害处，也没有坏处。
But I'm not a medical doctor and I don't tell anyone about, we have all of these disclaimers about not recommending.
但我不是医生，我不会告诉任何人，我们有所有这些关于不推荐的免责声明。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sure.
当然。
And we'll include these.
我们将包括这些。
I mean I always say we're not physicians, we don't prescribe anything.
我的意思是我总是说我们不是医生，我们不开任何处方。
We're scientists and professors, so we profess things.
我们是科学家和教授，所以我们有自己的主张。
And it's up to people to be responsible for their own health, not just to protect us, but to protect themselves.
人们有责任对自己的健康负责，不仅是为了保护我们，也是为了保护自己。
I do want to hear about tart cherry-
我确实想听听关于酸樱桃的事-
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And kiwifruit.
还有猕猴桃。
What's the story there?
那里有什么故事？
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Strange, isn't it?
很奇怪，不是吗？
I'm kind of a hard-nose scientist.
我是一个顽固的科学家。
When people some years ago started saying, oh, tart cherries, it's the thing, or kiwifruits, I was thinking, oh my goodness, this sounds a bit-
几年前，当人们开始说，哦，酸樱桃，就是猕猴桃，我在想，哦，天哪，这听起来有点——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Been in California too long.
来加州太久了。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Yeah, I know.
是的，我知道。
Yeah.
是的。
The sun has softened me some.
阳光让我的心情变得柔和了一些。
But I thought, look, one of the things that we have to do as scientists is be as open-minded as possible.
但我认为，作为科学家，我们必须做的事情之一就是尽可能保持开放的态度。
And I should not be so quick to dismiss.
我不应该这么快就驳回。
So I went to the literature, just started reading as much as I could about it.
所以我查阅了文献，开始尽可能多地阅读相关内容。
And there were three really good randomized placebo crossover trials with tart cherries.
还有三项非常好的随机安慰剂交叉试验，涉及酸樱桃。
And what they found was that in one study it reduced the amount of time that you spent awake at night by over an hour.
他们发现，在一项研究中，它可以将你晚上醒着的时间减少一个多小时。
And then the other two studies, one of them found that it increased the amount of sleep that you got by 34 minutes.
然后是另外两项研究，其中一项发现它可以使您的睡眠时间增加 34 分钟。
The other, it increased the amount of sleep that you got by 84 minutes.
另一方面，它使您的睡眠时间增加了 84 分钟。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wow.
哇。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
And what's striking is that they were independent studies, I think meaning that they were from independent groups, and some of these guys and girls I know pretty well.
引人注目的是，它们是独立研究，我认为这意味着它们来自独立团体，其中一些男孩和女孩我非常熟悉。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You know and trust their work.
您了解并信任他们的工作。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Right.
对。
I really trust their work too.
我也非常相信他们的工作。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Were they ingesting actual tart cherries, or they're drinking the juice or in capsule form?
他们摄入的是真正的酸樱桃，还是喝的是果汁或胶囊形式的樱桃？
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
It was juice.
这是果汁。
So in all three studies, it was juice.
因此，在所有三项研究中，都是果汁。
Although you can, I think as a supplement you can buy it in a capsule, and we've got no idea whether that changes the benefit or not.
虽然可以，但我认为作为补充剂，您可以购买胶囊形式的补充剂，我们不知道这是否会改变其功效。
What was also interesting in, I think it was that last study where they got an increase in sleep by 84 minutes, it also decreased daytime napping significantly.
同样有趣的是，我认为最后一项研究显示他们的睡眠时间增加了 84 分钟，同时白天的小睡时间也显着减少。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wow.
哇。
That's one that I could certainly make use of.
这是我当然可以利用的。
I love my daytime naps, but I'd love to skip them too.
我喜欢白天小睡，但我也想跳过它们。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Right.
对。
And we can speak about naps and sort of the upside and downside of that, which then made me think, well if that's the case, maybe the net benefit on sleep overall is no different.
我们可以谈论小睡以及小睡的好处和坏处，这让我想到，如果是这样的话，也许整体睡眠的净收益没有什么不同。
It's just that it decreases the amount of time that some people were taking to sleep during the day and giving it back to the night.
只是它减少了一些人白天睡觉的时间，并将其返还给晚上。
But that wasn't the case.
但事实并非如此。
Because if you added the total amount of sleep that they were getting without tart cherries, both naps and nightly sleep combined, still when you took tart cherries, you still got to net some benefit of-
因为如果你把他们不吃酸樱桃时的总睡眠时间加上去，包括小睡和夜间睡眠，那么当你吃酸樱桃时，你仍然可以获得一些好处——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Interesting.
有趣。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Total amount of sleep.
睡眠总量。
So far when it comes to supplements and those types of studies, they're good studies and the data looks interesting.
到目前为止，当谈到补充剂和此类研究时，它们都是很好的研究，而且数据看起来很有趣。
But as a drug itself, if this was clinical drug, three studies that are somewhat small in nature and have some positive benefit, that's what we would call preliminary data of maybe a chin-scratching kind.
但作为药物本身，如果这是临床药物，三项研究本质上有点小，但有一些积极的好处，这就是我们所说的可能是令人挠头的初步数据。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
And depending on the margins for safety, one might think, well, given that it's a tart cherry, as opposed to some pharmaceutical you need a prescription for, then some people — their threshold to experiment with supplements is quite low.
根据安全边际，人们可能会认为，考虑到它是一颗酸樱桃，而不是需要处方的某些药物，那么有些人尝试补充剂的门槛相当低。
Some people their threshold is quite high.
有些人的门槛相当高。
I feel like there are two categories, or at least two categories of folks out there: people who hear, oh, tart cherry can improve sleep, and will run out and try it.
我觉得那里有两类人，或者至少有两类人：那些听到“哦，酸樱桃可以改善睡眠”的人，就会跑出去尝试一下。
And people who hear, well that's sounds crazy, why would I do that?
人们听到后，这听起来很疯狂，我为什么要这么做？
But of course we have to remind people that tart cherry isn't really what we're talking about.
但当然我们必须提醒人们，酸樱桃并不是我们真正谈论的。
Presumably if this is a real effect, and it sounds like it might be, that there's a compound in tart cherry-
据推测，如果这是一个真实的效果，而且听起来可能是这样，那么酸樱桃中存在一种化合物——
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That if we were to call it whatever, five alpha six, some molecule, if we referred to it by its technical name, then people would say, oh, that sounds like a very interesting technical way to approach sleep, but doesn't sound very natural.
如果我们将其称为任何名称，五阿尔法六，某种分子，如果我们用其技术名称来引用它，那么人们会说，哦，这听起来是一种非常有趣的接近睡眠的技术方法，但听起来不太自然。
So both groups are a little bit misguided.
所以这两个群体都有点被误导了。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In the sense that people who think that everything that comes from naturally occurring foods, plants, et cetera, things that grow out the ground, that that's all safe, that's not true.
从某种意义上说，人们认为所有来自天然食物、植物等、从地里长出来的东西都是安全的，但事实并非如此。
And people that think that pharmaceuticals, if it's not evidenced with the purified molecule, then something's not of utility.
人们认为，如果没有纯化分子的证明，药物就没有用处。
Well, that's certainly not true.
嗯，这当然不是真的。
Somewhere in the middle I think lies the answer, which is, sounds to me like tart cherry is at least an intriguing potential sleep aid, intriguing potential sleep aid.
我认为答案就在中间的某个地方，也就是说，在我看来，酸樱桃至少是一种有趣的潜在助眠剂，令人着迷的潜在助眠剂。
And I'm underscoring potential.
我强调的是潜力。
I'm certainly intrigued by it to the point where I might experiment a bit, but I'm an experimenter for myself.
我当然对它很感兴趣，以至于我可能会尝试一下，但我自己就是一个实验者。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Before I ask you about kiwi, I've had quite good results from taking something called apigenin, which is a derivative of chamomile.
在我问你关于猕猴桃的问题之前，我已经通过服用一种叫做芹菜素的物质取得了很好的效果，它是洋甘菊的衍生物。
But in supplement form, I think I take 50 milligrams about 30 minutes before sleep, and I subjectively experience a better night's sleep, so to speak.
但在补充剂形式中，我认为我在睡前 30 分钟左右服用 50 毫克，可以说，我主观上体验到更好的夜间睡眠。
I confess, I don't measure my sleep.
我承认，我不测量我的睡眠。
I'm not a sleep tracker guy.
我不是睡眠追踪器的人。
But there are a few papers out there.
但那里有一些论文。
They're not what we would call blue ...
它们不是我们所说的蓝色......
published in blue ribbon journals, but they have control groups and it looks somewhat interesting, and there, when I say apigenin, people get somewhat intrigued over this molecule.
发表在蓝带期刊上，但他们有对照组，看起来有点有趣，当我说芹菜素时，人们对这种分子有点感兴趣。
Chamomile has long been thought to be a sedative, a mild sedative, but a sedative.
洋甘菊长期以来被认为是一种镇静剂，一种温和的镇静剂，但只是一种镇静剂。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do you drink chamomile tea?
你喝甘菊茶吗？
Do you take apigenin?
你服用芹菜素吗？
What are your thoughts on apigenin,
您对芹菜素有何看法，
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
I don't.
我不知道。
And I have looked into some of the data regarding sleep as well.
我也研究了一些有关睡眠的数据。
Right now, from best I can tell, it's mostly subjective data rather than objective hard sort of sleep measures.
目前，据我所知，这主要是主观数据，而不是客观的硬性睡眠指标。
And that's why right now it's sort of unclear, not no comment, but just unclear.
这就是为什么现在还不清楚，不是没有评论，而是不清楚。
Not dismissing it, because I think you and I both subscribe to the idea of absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
不否认它，因为我认为你和我都同意“缺乏证据并不等于缺席的证据”这一观点。
So keep your mind open, at least I tell that to myself.
所以保持开放的心态，至少我这样告诉自己。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
I think if you're finding a benefit, and you can do what I would think of if I was personally experimenting, which is both the positive and negative parts of the experiment.
我认为如果你发现了好处，你就可以做我个人实验时会想到的事情，这既是实验的积极部分，也是消极部分。
What I mean by that is, let's say that I now want to think about some kind of a sleep supplement.
我的意思是，假设我现在想考虑某种睡眠补充剂。
I will take some kind of baseline set of recordings for a month, and I will just gauge where I'm at, sort of supplement-free.
我会进行一个月的某种基线录音，然后我会衡量我的情况，有点无补充。
Then I'll go on for a month to whatever I'm thinking of taking, and I don't supplement.
然后我会继续一个月，吃我想吃的任何东西，而且我不补充。
But let's say that I want to and I experiment with that, and I feel as though, based on my metrics, be them objective from my ordering or be them subjective from whatever I'm writing down in the morning, and both are important — valid — subjective and objective.
但是，假设我想要并且我对此进行了实验，并且我觉得，根据我的指标，它们是来自我的排序的客观数据，还是来自我早上写下的内容的主观数据，两者都很重要 - 有效 - 主观和客观。
We like both in the sleep world.
我们在睡眠世界中都喜欢。
And I think, okay, look, it's clearly that it seems to have some kind of an effect.
我想，好吧，看，很明显它似乎有某种效果。
The key-
关键是——
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
...
...
Believe that it seems to have some kind of an effect.
相信它似乎有某种效果。
The key thing, however, is then do the negative experiment, which is, now come off it for another month and see, do things get worse?
然而，关键的是，然后进行负面实验，也就是说，再进行一个月，看看情况会变得更糟吗？
If I can see that by directionality, then I'm starting to think, maybe I'm believing this a little bit more.
如果我能通过方向性看到这一点，那么我就会开始思考，也许我会更加相信这一点。
That's the way I would typically approach a supplementation regiment if I were to do it, and that's just me.
如果我要这样做的话，这就是我通常会采取的方式来处理补充团，而这就是我。
That's just the way my mind works.
这就是我的思维方式。
But ...
但是...
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, that's great.
不，那太好了。
I think it's very scientific and organized in a way that allows you, and would allow other people, to make very informed decisions for themselves.
我认为它非常科学，组织方式允许您以及其他人为自己做出非常明智的决定。
I like that.
我喜欢这样。
I like to think in terms of manipulating any aspect of our biology that behavioral tools always are the first line of entry; then nutrition, everyone has to eat sooner or later, even if you're fasting; then perhaps supplementation; then prescription drugs; and then, perhaps brain machine interface, devices that are used to induce something.
我喜欢认为，在操纵我们生物学的任何方面时，行为工具始终是第一道切入点；然后是营养，每个人早晚都要吃东西，即使你是禁食的；然后也许是补充；然后是处方药；然后，也许是脑机接口，用于诱导某些东西的设备。
Those could be done in combination, but what concerns me is when I hear people say, "Well, what should I take?" Without thinking about their light-viewing behavior, et cetera.
这些可以结合起来进行，但让我担心的是，当我听到人们说：“好吧，我应该吃什么？”不考虑他们的光观察行为等等。
But of course, these things work in combination.
当然，这些东西是结合在一起发挥作用的。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Yeah.
是的。
I think you're right that when it comes to sleep, there are many low-hanging fruits that don't necessarily require you to put exogenous molecules, in other words things like supplements, into your body, or use different types of drugs to help you get there.
我认为你是对的，在睡眠方面，有许多容易实现的目标，并不一定需要你将外源性分子（换句话说，比如补充剂）放入你的体内，或使用不同类型的药物来帮助你达到目标。
Now, when it comes to prescription sleep aids, I think I've been, again, a little bit too forthright.
现在，当谈到处方助眠剂时，我想我再次有点过于直率了。
We know in clinical practice that there may be a time and a place for things like sleeping pills.
我们在临床实践中知道，安眠药之类的东西可能有使用的时间和地点。
They are a short-term solution to certain forms of insomnia, but they are not recommended for the long term.
它们是某些形式失眠的短期解决方案，但不建议长期使用。
We also know that there are lots of other ways that you can get a sleep help or you can get a sleep curative profile from things like cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia, which is a nondrug approach, a psychological one.
我们还知道，还有很多其他方法可以帮助您获得睡眠，或者可以通过治疗失眠的认知行为疗法等方法获得睡眠疗效，这是一种非药物方法，是一种心理方法。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And quite effective from what I understand.
据我了解，非常有效。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Very.
非常。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
.
。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Just as effective as sleeping pills, great data, more effective in the long term.
就像安眠药一样有效，大量数据，从长远来看更有效。
There was a recent study published that after working with a therapist, some of the benefits lasted almost a decade.
最近发表的一项研究表明，在与治疗师合作后，一些好处持续了近十年。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Amazing.
太棒了。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Now, if you stop sleeping pills, usually you have rebound insomnia, where your sleep goes back to being just as bad, if not worse.
现在，如果您停止服用安眠药，通常您会出现失眠反弹，您的睡眠会再次变得同样糟糕，甚至更糟。
I think the same is true when we think about supplementation.
我认为当我们考虑补充时也是如此。
There are so many things that are easy to implement when it comes to sleep that don't require venturing out into those waters.
在睡眠方面，有很多事情很容易实现，不需要冒险进入这些水域。
Again, we're not here to tell anyone about whether they should venture or not.
再次强调，我们并不是来告诉任何人是否应该冒险的。
That's completely your choice.
这完全是你的选择。
All I'm saying is that if you want to think about optimizing your sleep, there are a number of ways that you can do it that don't necessarily require you to swallow anything or inject anything or smoke anything or -
我想说的是，如果你想考虑优化你的睡眠，有很多方法可以做到这一点，不一定需要你吞咽任何东西或注射任何东西或吸烟任何东西或 -
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right, and for which the margins of safety are quite wide.
是的，而且安全边际相当大。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's the other one.
那是另一件事。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Yes, sorry.
是的，抱歉。
Thank you for that.
谢谢你。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Speaking of low-hanging fruit, I don't know how low it hangs in reality, but what about kiwi?
说到低垂的水果，我不知道它在现实中有多低，但是猕猴桃呢？
They're delicious to me, anyway.
无论如何，它们对我来说很美味。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Yeah, the humble kiwifruit, shouldn't be mistaken for the flightless bird of New Zealand, which is the native bird.
是的，不起眼的奇异果，不应该被误认为新西兰不会飞的鸟，这是新西兰的本土鸟。
We're talking about the kiwi, the fruit here, which those trees and shrubs are mostly Southeast Asia.
我们谈论的是猕猴桃，这里的水果，那些树木和灌木大多来自东南亚。
Kiwifruits have been previously touted as potentially having a sleep benefit, which again got me curious and I at first threw it out.
猕猴桃之前曾被吹捧为可能对睡眠有益，这再次引起了我的好奇，我一开始就把它扔掉了。
To my knowledge, there's really only one published human study that's of any value, but what they did find was that it decreased the speed of time with which it took you to fall asleep.
据我所知，实际上只有一项已发表的人类研究具有任何价值，但他们确实发现它降低了入睡的时间速度。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
These are people ingesting the whole kiwi?
这些人吃掉了整个猕猴桃？
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
So, it's ingesting the whole kiwi.
所以，它吃掉了整个猕猴桃。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
With the skin?
与皮肤？
I eat the skin and-
我吃了皮然后-
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Skin.
皮肤。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
People cringe when they see me doing.
人们看到我这样做时会感到畏缩。
But-
但是——
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Well, I think-
嗯，我想——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, don't eat the skin?
哦，不吃皮吗？
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
No. I think the idea is some of the good stuff, and I'll come onto this, may actually be in the skin itself.
不，我认为这个想法是一些好东西，我会谈到这一点，实际上可能就在皮肤本身中。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, wonderful.
哦，太棒了。
Thank you.
谢谢。
You just helped me win a bet.
你刚刚帮我赢了一个赌注。
I'll give you your .
我会给你你的。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Okay.
好的。
Yeah, you can pay me later.
是的，你可以稍后付钱给我。
By the way, the skin is use ...
顺便说一下，皮肤是用...
No, he just told me to say that.
不，他只是让我这么说。
No, he did not.
不，他没有。
The skin seems to be part of this potential sleep equation.
皮肤似乎是这个潜在睡眠方程的一部分。
You fell asleep faster and you stayed asleep for longer, and you spent less time awake throughout the night.
您入睡的速度更快，睡眠时间更长，整晚清醒的时间也更少。
I just thought, well, that's one study.
我只是想，好吧，这只是一项研究。
What can you really do with that?
你真的能用它做什么？
There is another study, however, in an animal model, which is a little bit more interesting.
然而，还有另一项动物模型研究更有趣。
Once again, they found a very similar phenotype that the rats ...
他们再次发现了老鼠的非常相似的表型......
Oh, sorry, they were mice.
哦，抱歉，它们是老鼠。
The mice fell asleep faster and they also spent longer time in sleep.
小鼠入睡速度更快，睡眠时间也更长。
The sleep duration also increased.
睡眠时间也增加了。
What was also interesting, mechanistically, and this is not the mechanism that I think ties together tart cherries, kiwifruit, and things like melatonin, because I think there could be one common binding mechanism — what they found in the animal study is that they could block those kiwifruit sleep benefits using a GABA-blocking agent.
从机制上讲，这也很有趣，我认为这并不是将酸樱桃、奇异果和褪黑激素等物质联系在一起的机制，因为我认为可能存在一种共同的结合机制——他们在动物研究中发现，他们可以使用 GABA 阻断剂来阻断奇异果的睡眠益处。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Interesting.
有趣。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Now, GABA, which stands for gamma-aminobutyric acid, is one of the major inhibitory neurotransmitters of the brain.
现在，GABA（代表γ-氨基丁酸）是大脑主要的抑制性神经递质之一。
It's like the red-
就像红色的一样——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
A naturally occurring sedative.
一种天然存在的镇静剂。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Yeah, it's the red light on the traffic light signal.
是的，就是交通信号灯上的红灯。
Others are green light.
其他都是绿灯。
GABA is red light.
GABA是红光。
By playing around with some clever drugs to manipulate the system, they could prevent the benefit of the kiwifruit by buggering around with the GABA receptor, meaning that perhaps part of the kiwifruit benefit on sleep was mediated by the brain's natural inhibitory neurotransmitter system, called the GABA system.
通过使用一些巧妙的药物来操纵该系统，他们可以通过干扰 GABA 受体来阻止奇异果的益处，这意味着奇异果对睡眠的部分益处可能是由大脑的天然抑制性神经递质系统（称为 GABA 系统）介导的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's exciting.
这太令人兴奋了。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
I thought that convinced me a little bit more that maybe there's something here to read into.
我想这让我更加确信也许这里有一些东西值得阅读。
To be determined.
待定。
Again, here is the banner, but tart cherries and kiwifruits, the data surprised me because in part, I was so preoccupied with being, I don't know, a bit purist about it and a bit snobby thinking, "Oh, come on, that's definitely not going to work." Well, -
再说一遍，这是横幅，但是酸樱桃和猕猴桃，这些数据让我感到惊讶，因为在某种程度上，我太专注于成为，我不知道，对此有点纯粹，有点势利的想法，“哦，来吧，这绝对行不通。”嗯，-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Compounds are compounds.
化合物就是化合物。
I look forward to a day when supplements are no longer called supplements because at the end of the day, whether or not something has an effect, whether or not it's a whole kiwifruit or a derivative kiwifruit, will depend on the molecular compound.
我期待有一天补充剂不再被称为补充剂，因为最终，某种东西是否有效，无论是整个猕猴桃还是衍生的猕猴桃，都将取决于分子化合物。
As you mentioned, this potential mechanism via the GABA system, we both as scientists get excited about mechanism because when you can trace a mechanism and a pathway, it provides a rationale, a grounding for why kiwi, of all things, or tart cherry, of all things, might help increase total sleep time.
正如您所提到的，通过 GABA 系统实现的这种潜在机制，我们作为科学家都对这种机制感到兴奋，因为当您可以追踪一种机制和途径时，它为为什么猕猴桃（所有事物中）或酸樱桃（所有事物中）可能有助于增加总睡眠时间提供了一个基本原理和基础。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd be remiss if I didn't mention or ask about tryptophan and serotonin.
如果我没有提及或询问色氨酸和血清素，那就是我的失职。
I can anecdotally say when I've taken tryptophan, the precursor to serotonin, or serotonin itself, I have a horrendous night's sleep.
有趣的是，当我服用色氨酸（血清素的前体）或血清素本身时，我晚上的睡眠质量非常糟糕。
I fall asleep very easily and I experience ridiculously vivid dreams, neither pleasant nor unpleasant, it's a mishmash, and then I wake up and I experience several days of insomnia.
我很容易就睡着了，我经历了极其生动的梦，既不愉快也不令人不愉快，是一种大杂烩，然后我醒来，经历了几天的失眠。
I've done the positive control and the negative control at all the variations thereof to confirm that, at least for me, supplementing with serotonergic agents is a bad idea for me.
我已经完成了阳性对照和阴性对照的所有变化，以确认至少对我来说，补充血清素剂对我来说是一个坏主意。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Tryptophan is a common sleep supplement and sleep aid that's discussed.
色氨酸是一种常见的睡眠补充剂和助眠剂。
The normal architecture of sleep involves the release of serotonin, but in a very timed and regulated way.
睡眠的正常结构涉及血清素的释放，但是以一种非常定时和调节的方式。
What are your thoughts about serotonin in sleep if you had to put that into a nutshell, and then why supplementing with serotonin and, or its precursor, tryptophan, might be a good or a bad idea for somebody?
如果您必须简而言之，您对睡眠中的血清素有何看法？那么为什么补充血清素及其前体色氨酸对某人来说可能是好主意还是坏主意？
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
I think one of the potential dangers is that based on what's going on in your body, that can change the absorption of natural tryptophan and serotonin uptake within the brain itself.
我认为潜在的危险之一是，根据您体内发生的情况，这可能会改变大脑本身对天然色氨酸的吸收和血清素的吸收。
I'm always thoughtful when you're playing around with that Mother Nature dynamic as it were.
当你玩弄大自然的动态时，我总是很体贴。
The data, as you described, is a little bit all over the map.
正如您所描述的，数据遍布整个地图。
Some people say that it knocks them out.
有些人说这让他们崩溃了。
Other people say, just like you do, "It has a terrible impact on my sleep and when I stop, it's pretty bad for a couple of days.
其他人也和你一样说，“它对我的睡眠产生了可怕的影响，当我停止使用时，有几天的情况会很糟糕。
It seems to have this lingering after-effect." I think what could be happening here is we need serotonin, just as you described, to be modulated in very specific ways during the different stages of sleep.
它似乎有这种挥之不去的后遗症。”我认为这里可能发生的是我们需要血清素，正如您所描述的那样，在睡眠的不同阶段以非常特定的方式进行调节。
If you look at the firing of the brain epicenters where serotonin is released, and there's a bunch of them in the brain stem, what you find, and in the release of serotonin too, when we're awake, it's usually in high concentrations.
如果你观察释放血清素的大脑中枢的放电情况，你会发现脑干中存在大量的血清素，当我们清醒时，血清素的释放也通常处于高浓度。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
As we start to drift off to sleep, it lowers some, but not necessarily dramatically as we're going into non-REM sleep.
当我们开始入睡时，它会降低一些，但随着我们进入非快速眼动睡眠，不一定会显着降低。
But then when we go into REM sleep, serotonin is shut off.
但当我们进入快速眼动睡眠时，血清素就会被关闭。
One of the other neuromodulators, noradrenaline, also shut off.
另一种神经调节剂去甲肾上腺素也被关闭。
REM sleep is the only time during the 24-hour period where we see noradrenaline and serotonin, or norepinephrine, completely shut down.
快速眼动睡眠是 24 小时内唯一一个我们看到去甲肾上腺素和血清素（或去甲肾上腺素）完全关闭的时间。
When I say serotonin, we're also talking 5-HTP ...
当我说血清素时，我们也在谈论 5-HTP...
Sorry, 5-HT.
对不起，5-HT。
That's just its chemical name here.
这只是它的化学名称。
Speaking about serotonin or 5-HT, it's the same thing.
说到血清素或 5-HT，这是同一件事。
Norepinephrine, noradrenaline, both of those need to be shut down for you to produce REM sleep.
去甲肾上腺素、去甲肾上腺素，这两种物质都需要关闭才能让你进入快速眼动睡眠。
One of the other neuromodulators that then ramps up to produce REM sleep is acetylcholine.
另一种随后加速产生快速眼动睡眠的神经调节剂是乙酰胆碱。
These three neuromodulators have this incredible reciprocal dance that they have for you to generate what is called a natural architecture of sleep throughout the night.
这三种神经调节剂具有令人难以置信的相互作用，可以帮助您生成所谓的整夜睡眠的自然结构。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's the push-pull again.
又是推拉。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
It's a push-pull again.
又是一次推拉。
It's chest and back, whatever you want to think of.
胸部和背部，你想怎么想就怎么想。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sure.
当然。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
That's why I think if you're trying to increase, dramatically drive up your serotonin levels at night, and that sustains throughout the night when you're trying to get into REM sleep, you could be artificially fragmenting REM sleep.
这就是为什么我认为，如果你试图在夜间显着提高血清素水平，并且当你试图进入快速眼动睡眠时，这种水平会持续整个晚上，那么你可能会人为地破坏快速眼动睡眠。
Now, I don't know the data.
现在，我不知道数据。
I don't think anyone's really got good data.
我认为没有人真正拥有良好的数据。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, I haven't been able to find -
不，我没能找到——
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
If you were to say, "Matt, two years' time, that's the data.
如果你说：“马特，两年后，这就是数据。
Help me understand the potential mechanism, or let's design some experiments.
帮助我理解潜在的机制，或者让我们设计一些实验。
Where would you go first?" I would say, "Let's look at the disruption of REM sleep, non-REM sleep, reciprocal regulation," because you need serotonin to be up at one time, down at another.
你先去哪里？”我会说，“让我们看看快速眼动睡眠、非快速眼动睡眠、相互调节的破坏”，因为你需要血清素在某个时间上升，在另一个时间下降。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I agree with everything you said, and I'm personally never taking tryptophan or serotonin again unless there's some clinical reason for that, that I would need to do that.
我同意你所说的一切，我个人再也不会服用色氨酸或血清素，除非有一些临床原因，我需要这样做。
I want to ask about some other prosleep behaviors, but before I do that, let's talk about naps.
我想询问其他一些促进睡眠的行为，但在此之前，让我们先谈谈小睡。
I love naps.
我喜欢小睡。
I come from a long history of nappers.
我有着悠久的午睡历史。
My dad always took a nap in the afternoon.
我爸爸总是在下午小睡一会儿。
I take a 20 or 30-minute nap or I do a practice, which I took the liberty of coining "NDSR," non-sleep, deep rest, some sort of just passive laying-
我小睡 20 或 30 分钟，或者做一次练习，我冒昧地创造了“NDSR”，即不睡觉、深度休息、某种被动躺着——
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Genius.
天才。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Out there, feet up elevated, or I'll do yoga nidra, I'll do hypnosis, or something of that sort.
在那里，把脚抬高，或者我会做瑜伽休息术，我会做催眠，或者类似的事情。
But 20 or 30 minutes of that has been very beneficial for me to get up from that nap or period of minimal wakefulness, we'll call it, and go about my day quite well and also fall asleep just fine.
但其中的 20 或 30 分钟对我来说非常有益，让我能够从小睡或我们称之为最低限度清醒的时期中醒来，并顺利地度过我的一天，也很好地入睡。
What are the data on naps?
午睡的数据是什么？
Do you nap, and what are your thoughts about keeping nap short, meaning 20 to 30 minutes, versus getting out past 90 minutes, two hours?
你会小睡吗？对于短时间小睡（即 20 到 30 分钟）和超过 90 分钟、两个小时的小睡，你有何看法？
For you personally, naps, yay, nay or nah?
对你个人来说，小睡是，是的，不，还是不？
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
I don't nap and I've just never been a habitual napper.
我不打瞌睡，而且我从来都不是一个习惯性打瞌睡的人。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is that because you don't feel sleepy in the afternoon or because ...
是因为下午不困还是因为……
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
I typically don't feel sleepy.
我通常不会感到困倦。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
So, you're just hardier though.
所以，你只是更坚强。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
I wouldn't say hardier.
我不会说更坚强。
I may be less capable of falling asleep.
我可能不太能入睡。
My sleep drive-
我的睡眠动力-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But you're not dragging through the afternoon?
但你不会拖延整个下午吗？
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
No, I don't drag through.
不，我不会拖过去。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So, you don't nap because you don't feel a need to nap.
所以，你不小睡是因为你觉得不需要小睡。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
That's right, yep.
没错，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's right?
是这样吗？
Okay.
好的。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Now, it's not that I am immune to what we call a postprandial dip in alertness.
现在，这并不是说我对所谓的餐后警觉性下降免疫。
I definitely feel as though there can be this afternoon lull, where I'm not quite as on as I was at 11 o'clock in the morning.
我确实觉得今天下午可能会平静下来，不像早上 11 点那样精力充沛。
We know the physiology to that, which brings us back to whether we were designed to nap.
我们知道这其中的生理学原理，这让我们回到了我们是否生来就该小睡的问题上。
For naps, we've done lots of different studies, and other colleagues have done these studies too.
对于小睡，我们做了很多不同的研究，其他同事也做了这些研究。
Naps can have some really great benefits.
午睡确实有一些很大的好处。
We found benefits for cardiovascular health — blood pressure, for example.
我们发现对心血管健康（例如血压）有好处。
We found benefits for levels of cortisol.
我们发现皮质醇水平的好处。
We found benefits for learning and memory, and also emotional regulation.
我们发现它对学习和记忆以及情绪调节都有好处。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
How long are the naps typically in those studies?
这些研究中小睡的时间通常是多长？
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Anywhere between 20 minutes to 90 minutes.
20 分钟到 90 分钟之间的任意时间。
Sometimes, we like to use a 90-minute window so that the participant can have a full cycle of sleep and, therefore, they get both non-REM and REM sleep within that time period.
有时，我们喜欢使用 90 分钟的窗口，以便参与者可以拥有完整的睡眠周期，因此他们在该时间段内同时获得非快速眼动睡眠和快速眼动睡眠。
Then when we wake them up, we usually wait a period of time to get them past what we call sleep inertia, which is that window of grogginess where you say to your better half, "Look, darling, please don't speak to me for the first hour after I've ...
然后，当我们叫醒他们时，我们通常会等待一段时间，让他们克服我们所说的睡眠惯性，也就是你对你的另一半说的昏昏沉沉的窗口，“听着，亲爱的，请在我睡完后的第一个小时内不要跟我说话。
"
”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
"Don't anything right now."
“现在什么都别做。”
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Yeah.
是的。
After the first hour of waking up, I'm just not the best version of myself.
醒来的第一个小时后，我就不再是最好的自己了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
We wait for that time period, and then we do some testing.
我们等待这个时间段，然后进行一些测试。
We've done some testing before and after, and we look at the change.
我们之前和之后都做了一些测试，然后我们看看变化。
That's how we measure what was the benefit of naps and the reason why we sometimes do 90 minutes, so that they get all of those stages of sleep, and then we correlate how much benefit did you get from the nap and how much of that benefit was explained by what REM sleep you got, what deep sleep you got, what light sleep you got.
这就是我们衡量小睡的好处的方式，也是我们有时小睡 90 分钟的原因，以便他们获得所有这些睡眠阶段，然后我们将您从小睡中获得的好处与您获得的快速眼动睡眠、深度睡眠和浅度睡眠解释了多少好处相关联。
That's the only reason that we use that as an experimental tool.
这是我们使用它作为实验工具的唯一原因。
What we've also found is that naps of as little as 17 minutes can have some quite potent effects on, for example, learning.
我们还发现，短至 17 分钟的小睡就能对学习等方面产生相当显着的影响。
None of this is novel.
这些都不是什么新鲜事。
NASA pioneered this back in the 1990s.
NASA 在 20 世纪 90 年代率先采用了这一技术。
During the missions, they were experimenting with naps for their astronauts, and what they found was that naps of little as 26 minutes improved a mission performance by 34% and improved daytime alertness by 50%.
在执行任务期间，他们对宇航员小睡进行了实验，结果发现，只要小睡 26 分钟，任务表现就能提高 34%，白天的警觉性提高 50%。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Fantastic.
太棒了。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
It birthed what was then called the NASA nap culture throughout all terrestrial NASA staff during that time period.
在那段时期，它在所有地面 NASA 工作人员中催生了当时所谓的 NASA 午睡文化。
So, it's long been known that naps can have a benefit.
因此，人们早就知道小睡有好处。
Naps, however, can have a double-edged sword.
然而，小睡也是一把双刃剑。
There is a dark side to naps, and it comes back to our story of adenosine and sleep pressure.
小睡也有不好的一面，这又回到了我们关于腺苷和睡眠压力的故事。
The longer we're awake, the more of that sleep pressure adenosine that we build up.
我们清醒的时间越长，产生的睡眠压力腺苷就越多。
But what I didn't tell you is that when we sleep, the brain gets the chance to essentially clear out that adenosine, and after about 16 hours of wakefulness and then after about eight hours of sleep, eight hours of sleep seems to be able to allow the brain to decrease its adenosine levels back to normal.
但我没有告诉你的是，当我们睡觉时，大脑有机会基本上清除腺苷，在大约 16 小时的清醒后，然后在大约 8 小时的睡眠后，8 小时的睡眠似乎能够让大脑将其腺苷水平降低到正常水平。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
And so naturally, we should start to wake up, which also aligns with your circadian rhythm.
因此，我们自然应该开始醒来，这也符合您的昼夜节律。
Those are two separate processes, but with about eight hours of good quality sleep, seven to nine hours for the average adult, we are free of all of that adenosine.
这是两个独立的过程，但只要有大约八小时的优质睡眠（一般成年人为七到九小时），我们就可以摆脱所有的腺苷。
We've evacuated it essentially out of the brain, and we wake up naturally feeling refreshed.
我们基本上已经将它从大脑中排出，我们自然醒来，感觉神清气爽。
The reason that naps can be potentially dangerous is that when you nap, you are essentially opening the valve on the pressure cooker of sleep pressure, and some of that sleepiness is lost by way of the nap.
小睡可能具有潜在危险的原因是，当你小睡时，你实际上是在打开睡眠压力高压锅上的阀门，而一些睡意会随着小睡而消失。
For some people and not all people, and you're a great example of this, however, if they are struggling with sleep at night and they nap during the day, it makes their sleep problems even worse.
对于某些人而不是所有人来说，你就是一个很好的例子，但是，如果他们晚上睡眠困难而白天打盹，这会使他们的睡眠问题变得更糟。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
For people with insomnia, we typically advise against napping.
对于失眠的人，我们通常建议不要小睡。
The advice is if you can nap regularly and you don't struggle with sleep at night, then naps are just fine.
建议是，如果您可以定期小睡，并且晚上不难入睡，那么小睡就可以了。
But if you do struggle with sleep, stay away from naps.
但如果您确实难以入睡，请远离小睡。
If you are going to nap, try to limit your naps.
如果您要小睡，请尽量限制小睡时间。
Try to cut them off a bit like caffeine, maybe eight to 12 hours, maybe not that far off, maybe seven to six hours is a good rule of thumb.
试着像咖啡因一样戒掉它们，也许八到十二小时，也许不是那么远，也许七到六个小时是一个很好的经验法则。
Try not to nap essentially late in the afternoon.
尽量不要在下午晚些时候小睡。
If you do take a nap and you want to maintain your ...
如果您确实要小睡一下并且想保持...
You don't want to have that grogginess hangover that can happen after a full night of sleep for the first hour, try to limit it to about 20, 25 minutes.
如果您不想在睡了一整夜后头一个小时内出现昏昏沉沉的宿醉，请尝试将睡眠时间限制在 20 到 25 分钟左右。
That way, you don't go down into the very deepest stages of sleep, which if I wrench you out of with an alarm, then you almost feel worse for the first hour after the nap because-
这样，你就不会进入最深的睡眠阶段，如果我用闹钟把你从睡眠中拉出来，那么你在小睡后的第一个小时几乎会感觉更糟，因为——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, I've definitely experienced that if I oversleep.
是的，如果我睡过头了，我肯定经历过这种情况。
Certainly, if the sun goes down during my nap, and I wake up and overall lighting conditions have changed, I find it very hard to jolt myself back into the evening, and it can screw me up.
当然，如果太阳在我小睡期间落下，而我醒来时整体照明条件发生了变化，我会发现很难让自己回到夜晚，这会让我陷入困境。
So, I try and keep those naps pretty brief.
所以，我尽量让小睡时间保持得简短一些。
I should say, I'm very happy to hear you mention individual differences and why some people might want a nap and other people might not want to nap.
我应该说，我很高兴听到你提到个体差异以及为什么有些人可能想要午睡而另一些人可能不想午睡。
I have a colleague, Liqun Luo, he'll be familiar to many neurobiologists, but-
我有一个同事，罗立群，很多神经生物学家都会熟悉他，但是——
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Yeah, of course.
是的，当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Who's an absolutely spectacular scientist, member of the National Academy, Howard Hughes Investigator, just a phenom and has a ton of energy.
他是一位绝对出色的科学家、美国国家科学院院士、霍华德·休斯研究员，是一位天才，精力充沛。
But years ago, I learned that he always takes a nap in the afternoon, so much so that when he travels to give seminars at other universities, he will tell his postlunch host, whoever it is that he's supposed to meet with, "May I have your office for 30 minutes of our ...
但几年前，我了解到他总是在下午小睡，以至于当他去其他大学举办研讨会时，他会告诉午餐后的主人，无论他要见的人是谁，“我可以在你的办公室度过我们的 30 分钟……
30-minute discussion, or 60-minute discussion, because I like to take a nap?" He does that and then gives ...
30分钟讨论，还是60分钟讨论，因为我喜欢午睡？”他这样做，然后给...
His talks are typically in the afternoon in academic culture.
在学术文化中，他的演讲通常在下午进行。
He describes the effect of the nap for him, these short naps in the afternoon, being so profound for his productivity.
他描述了小睡对他的影响，下午的短暂小睡对他的工作效率影响深远。
That's actually what inspired me to start feeling okay about my desire to nap.
这实际上激励我开始对自己想要小睡的愿望感到满意。
And so I think, for me, that was great vindication for those that might feel guilty about wanting a nap.
所以我认为，对我来说，这对于那些可能因为想要小睡而感到内疚的人来说是一个很好的证明。
But I take to heart your note about avoiding naps if you have trouble falling and staying asleep because I think that I have family members who also, if they nap, they're a wreck.
但我牢记你关于如果入睡和入睡困难时避免小睡的说明，因为我认为我的家人如果小睡的话也会很糟糕。
They can't sleep.
他们睡不着。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Yeah, I think it's just we've often been very pro-sleep via the sleep community.
是的，我认为这只是我们经常通过睡眠社区非常支持睡眠。
So, I think it's good to always point out these potential dark sides of any aspect.
所以，我认为总是指出任何方面的这些潜在的阴暗面是件好事。
But you're absolutely right.
但你是绝对正确的。
No one should feel guilty about getting the sleep that they need.
没有人应该因为获得所需的睡眠而感到内疚。
I think that's been one of the big problems in society.
我认为这是社会的大问题之一。
Society has stigmatized sleep with these labels of being slothful or lazy, and we're almost embarrassed to tell colleagues that we take a nap.
社会给睡眠贴上了懒惰或懒惰的标签，我们几乎不好意思告诉同事我们在小睡。
I think sleep is a right of human beings, and I therefore think that sleep is a civil right of all human beings, and no one should make you feel unproud of getting the sleep that you need.
我认为睡眠是人类的一项权利，因此我认为睡眠是全人类的一项公民权利，任何人都不应该让你为获得所需的睡眠而感到不自豪。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, I love that and it's an important point.
嗯，我喜欢这一点，这是很重要的一点。
I also feel that one of the best ways to beat your competition in any endeavor is to outlive them.
我还认为，在任何努力中击败竞争对手的最佳方法之一就是比他们活得更久。
Now that we know that sleep can enhance longevity and lack of sleep can shorten one's life, that's all the justification I need anyway.
现在我们知道睡眠可以延长寿命，而睡眠不足会缩短寿命，这就是我所需要的全部理由。
Can somebody sleep too much?
有人会睡太多吗？
Is it possible to get too much sleep?
有可能睡得太多吗？
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
It's a very good question and there are probably two things to say about it.
这是一个非常好的问题，对此可能有两点要说。
There is a condition that we call hypersomnia, but that's a mixture of things.
有一种情况我们称之为嗜睡症，但它是多种疾病的混合体。
It's where people have either a very high sleep need, or they are very sleepy during the day and they're typically falling asleep.
人们要么有非常高的睡眠需求，要么白天非常困并且通常会入睡。
These can happen in a variety of different clinical contexts.
这些可能发生在各种不同的临床环境中。
One of the places where we've often seen hypersomnia believed to manifest is in depression.
据信，我们经常看到嗜睡症表现出来的地方之一就是抑郁症。
But if you look at some of those studies, it turns out it looks more as though those people are simply reporting being in bed longer, but not necessarily sleeping longer.
但如果你看一下其中一些研究，就会发现这些人只是报告说他们在床上的时间更长，但不一定睡得更久。
That fits very well with one of the profiles that we know of depression, which is anhedonia.
这非常符合我们所知道的抑郁症的特征之一，即快感缺失。
You don't get pleasure from normally pleasurable things.
你不会从通常令人愉快的事情中获得快乐。
So, you just don't want to go out into the world.
所以，你只是不想走进这个世界。
You don't want to interact because you're depressed.
你不想互动，因为你很沮丧。
So, what do you do?
那么，你做什么呢？
You just stay in bed and that-
你只需呆在床上然后-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Blinds closed, watching TV on the phone.
窗帘关上，用手机看电视。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Right, and that just looks as though-
是的，看起来就像-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Feeling miserable.
感觉很惨。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
When people say, "What time did you go to bed, and what time did you get out of bed?" The mistake made in that question is, okay, that's how much time they're sleeping, when you should have said, "What time did you fall asleep and what time did you wake up?" The answer could be very different.
当人们问：“你什么时候睡觉，什么时候起床？”这个问题犯的错误是，好吧，这就是他们睡了多少时间，而你应该说，“你什么时候睡的，你什么时候醒来的？”答案可能会非常不同。
That's hypersomnia from a clinical context.
从临床角度来看，这就是嗜睡症。
Can you sleep too much though?
你能睡太多吗？
One of the data points that argue is yes, that's possible, is when we look at all-cause mortality.
争论的数据点之一是，这是可能的，那就是当我们观察全因死亡率时。
Certainly, what you find is that using this sweet spot of seven to nine hours, when you start to drop below seven hours, there is a relationship which suggests that the shorter your sleep, the shorter your life.
当然，你会发现，利用七到九个小时的最佳时间，当你的睡眠时间开始低于七个小时时，就会发现，你的睡眠时间越短，你的寿命就越短。
Short sleep in that regard predicts all-cause mortality.
在这方面，睡眠不足预示着全因死亡率。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
But it's again not a linear relationship like the one that we've seen with REM sleep.
但这又不是像我们在快速眼动睡眠中看到的那样的线性关系。
Once you get past nine hours, the mortality curve stops going down, and then once you get further, 10 or 11 hours, it hooks back up again.
一旦超过 9 小时，死亡率曲线就会停止下降，然后一旦超过 10 或 11 小时，死亡率曲线就会再次上升。
It's almost like a J-shape tilted over a little bit and reversed.
它几乎就像一个稍微倾斜并反转的 J 形。
So, there's this strange hook.
所以，就有了这个奇怪的钩子。
What's going on here?
这是怎么回事？
Right now, sleep science has at least two nonmutually exclusive explanations for this.
目前，睡眠科学对此至少有两种互不排斥的解释。
The first is that if you look at some of those populations, the idea is that whatever was causing them illness and took their lives was just too much for sleep to deal with.
首先，如果你观察其中一些人群，就会发现，无论是什么导致他们生病并夺走了他们的生命，睡眠都无法应对。
However, we know that when we get sick, one of the things that we do immediately — and there's a whole mechanism, an inflammatory mechanism, cytokine mediated – we want to sleep more.
然而，我们知道，当我们生病时，我们立即做的一件事——这是一个完整的机制，一种细胞因子介导的炎症机制——我们想要睡得更多。
We just want to curl up in bed and sleep it off.
我们只想蜷缩在床上睡一觉。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
The argument there is that it's not that sleep was killing people prematurely.
争论的焦点是，睡眠并不是导致人们过早死亡的原因。
It was that these people were calling on the help of sleep.
正是这些人在呼唤睡眠的帮助。
They were calling on this thing called the Swiss Army knife of health that is sleep.
他们呼吁这种被称为健康瑞士军刀的东西，那就是睡眠。
But whatever it is that they were facing was just too powerful for sleep to overcome.
但无论他们面临的是什么，都太强大了，睡眠无法克服。
So, it artificially looks as though more sleep leads to a higher risk of death, when sleep was actually responding to the mortality risk and it lost the battle.
因此，人为地认为更多的睡眠会导致更高的死亡风险，而实际上睡眠是对死亡风险的反应，但它输了这场战斗。
That's one argument.
这是一个论点。
The second is that we know that sleep quality and poor sleep efficiency is a very strong predictor of all-cause mortality.
第二，我们知道睡眠质量和睡眠效率差是全因死亡率的一个非常有力的预测因素。
When you look at people who often report sleeping long amounts, 10 or 11 hours, they typically report having very poor quality sleep.
当你观察经常报告睡眠时间较长（10 或 11 小时）的人时，他们通常报告睡眠质量非常差。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
So because their quality of sleep is poor, they just try to sleep longer to try and get some of that back.
因此，由于他们的睡眠质量很差，他们只是尝试睡更长的时间来尝试恢复一些睡眠质量。
Again, here now, it's poor quality sleep masking as too much sleep leading to this artificial huck, which looks like mortality.
再说一次，现在，这是质量差的睡眠掩蔽，因为太多的睡眠导致了这种人造的哈克，看起来像死亡。
That's a second explanation.
这是第二种解释。
A third, which is more of a gedanken, which is just a thought experiment — I'm of this mentality; I don't know how many other people share this — I actually think there could be a thing as too much sleep.
第三个，这更像是一个 gedanken，这只是一个思想实验——我就是这种心态；我不知道还有多少人有同样的看法——我实际上认为可能是睡眠过多造成的。
Physiologically, I think it's possible, but the reason I think that is because it's no different than food, water or oxygen.
从生理上来说，我认为这是可能的，但我认为这是因为它与食物、水或氧气没有什么不同。
Can you overeat?
你能吃得过饱吗？
Yes, you can.
是的，你可以。
Can you undereat?
你能吃得少吗？
Of course.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or light.
或者光。
Light in the early part of the day, all throughout the day, wonderful.
一天早些时候的光线，全天的光线，美妙极了。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Light late in the day and at night, detrimental.
白天和晚上的光照是有害的。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Bidirectional.
双向。
For water, can you overhydrate?
对于水，你会过度补水吗？
Hyponatremia — it happened in the 1990s and 2000 with the ecstasy craze, where governments were saying, "You're dehydrating.
低钠血症——它发生在 20 世纪 90 年代和 2000 年代，伴随着摇头丸热潮，当时政府说，“你正在脱水。
You're dancing all night.
你整个晚上都在跳舞。
Please drink water." They drank too much water, the blood electrolytes went all over the place and they were having cardiac arrests or stroke.
请喝水。”他们喝了太多的水，血液电解质到处乱，导致心脏骤停或中风。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, people were dying.
是的，人们正在死去。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
They were dying because of excessive hydration.
他们因水分过多而濒临死亡。
Can you get too much oxygen?
你会吸入过多的氧气吗？
Hyperoxemia, it can cause free radical damage, which can be profoundly harmful and kill brain cells.
高氧血症会导致自由基损伤，从而造成严重危害并杀死脑细胞。
Can you sleep too much?
你能睡太多吗？
Which is the fifth element of the life equation alongside food, water, oxygen.
这是生命方程式中与食物、水、氧气并列的第五个元素。
Fourth, I should say.
第四，我应该说。
Can't even count.
连数都数不过来。
Clearly, I'm sleeping well.
显然，我睡得很好。
Yes, I think there could be that possibility.
是的，我认为可能存在这种可能性。
Are most people in danger of getting too much sleep, au contraire, if you look at the data?
相反，如果你看一下数据，大多数人是否都面临睡眠过多的危险？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Yeah, so-
是啊，所以——
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
But I don't dismiss that idea.
但我并不否认这个想法。
I think it's possible.
我认为这是可能的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's a very thorough and very nuanced and very clear answer.
这是一个非常彻底、非常细致、非常明确的答案。
It's so interesting to think that a lot of the data that are out there talking about being in bed too long, it's just trying to compensate for the actual fragmentation of sleep.
有趣的是，很多数据都在谈论躺在床上的时间太长，这只是为了弥补睡眠的实际碎片化。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What I'm coming away with is that there are many paths to this, both positive and things to avoid but the idea is to get, most nights, a similar amount, probably seven to nine hours, somewhere in there, of high quality sleep.
我的结论是，实现这一目标的途径有很多，既有积极的，也有需要避免的，但我们的想法是，在大多数晚上，获得相似的时间，可能是七到九个小时，在某个地方的高质量睡眠。
This notion of sleep quality is going to become, I would hope, a phrase that more people think about and learn about and cultivate as a practice.
我希望，这种睡眠质量的概念将成为更多人思考、学习和实践的一个短语。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm aware of at least one company that's starting to track in their sleep monitoring device, and that's orgasm.
我知道至少有一家公司开始追踪他们的睡眠监测设备，那就是性高潮。
Sex, orgasm and masturbation, topics that are somewhat sensitive, but from the perspective of biology, none of us would be here were not for sperm meets egg in some fashion, either in a dish or in vivo.
性、性高潮和手淫，这些话题有些敏感，但从生物学的角度来看，如果不是精子以某种方式（无论是在培养皿中还是在体内）与卵子相遇，我们就不会在这里。
What are the data as you know them to be, or maybe your lab is even doing this kind of work and exploration, about the role that sex, orgasm and masturbation play in getting to sleep and staying asleep and sleep quality?
您所知道的数据是什么，或者您的实验室甚至正在做这种工作和探索，关于性、性高潮和手淫在入睡、保持睡眠和睡眠质量方面所起的作用？
Certainly, those behaviors and those physiological events have been part of our evolutionary history.
当然，这些行为和生理事件已经成为我们进化史的一部分。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What's the story there?
那里有什么故事？
What can we say about this in terms of science and, dare I say, practice?
从科学和实践的角度来看，我们能说些什么呢？
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Yeah.
是的。
I mean, it's almost that caricature of in the movies, where a couple makes love and then all of a sudden, you just hear snoring, with the idea that it's somewhat somnogenic, that it's sleep promoting.
我的意思是，这几乎就是电影中的漫画，一对情侣做爱，然后突然，你只听到打鼾声，你会觉得这有点催眠，它可以促进睡眠。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, the post-orgasmic increase in prolactin-
嗯，性高潮后催乳素的增加-
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Well, that's very ...
嗯，这非常...
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is ...
是...
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Is interesting.
很有趣。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thought to be a naturally occurring sedative that presumably has a function in ...
被认为是一种天然存在的镇静剂，可能具有......
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Oxytocin has also that benefit where you see a dissipation of the fight-or-flight branch of the nervous system, which has to happen for you to fall asleep.
当你看到神经系统的战斗或逃跑分支消散时，催产素也有这样的好处，这必须发生才能让你入睡。
That's why we often see, here at the sleep center, a phenomenon called wired-and-tired, where people say, "Look, I am so desperately tired.
这就是为什么我们经常在睡眠中心看到一种叫做“疲惫不堪”的现象，人们说：“看，我太累了。
I'm so tired, but I can't fall asleep because I'm too wired." Your sleep drive — you're desperately tired, it's there, but because you're wired, because you've got too much sympathetic activation, too much cortisol as well, you can't fall asleep.
我很累，但我睡不着，因为我太紧张了。”你的睡眠驱动力——你极度疲倦，它就在那里，但因为你很紧张，因为你有太多的交感神经激活，还有太多的皮质醇，你无法入睡。
It's an impressive roadblock to anything like good sleep, and it's one of the principle mechanisms that we now believe, stress and physiological activation, that is the underlying cause of many forms of insomnia.
这是良好睡眠之类的令人印象深刻的障碍，也是我们现在认为的主要机制之一，压力和生理激活，是许多形式失眠的根本原因。
But coming back to sex, the data is actually quite compelling that both, either, subjectively assessed sleep quality or objective amount of sleep, sex that has resulted in orgasm, and I think it's that latter part that typically needs to happen-
但回到性，数据实际上非常令人信服，无论是主观评估的睡眠质量还是客观的睡眠量，性都会导致性高潮，我认为通常需要发生的是后一部分 -
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I would imagine so.
我想是这样。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Between two mutually exclusive individuals, where both are beneficial in terms of receiving an orgasm, that's-
在两个相互排斥的个体之间，两者都对获得性高潮有益，那就是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
I would say, any discussion about sex, we are referring to consensual, age-appropriate, species-appropriate, context-appropriate.
我想说，任何关于性的讨论，我们指的是自愿的、适合年龄的、适合物种的、适合环境的。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Wow, I would never have even gone to the species-appropriate, but thank you for doing that.
哇，我什至不会去适合物种的地方，但谢谢你这么做。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I put species in there because it's the Internet, and people will come up with all sorts of ideas.
我把物种放在那里，因为这是互联网，人们会想出各种各样的想法。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Wow, good point, well made.
哇，好点，制作精良。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think age-appropriate, consensual-
我认为适合年龄，双方同意-
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Yeah, consent.
是的，同意。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Context-appropriate and species-appropriate covers all the bases, but if I missed any-
适合环境和适合物种的内容涵盖了所有基础，但如果我错过了任何-
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Yeah.
是的。
Well, let's-
好吧，让我们-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Put them in the comment section and we'll be sure to take note.
将它们放在评论部分，我们一定会注意到。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
No, I think that's really well said and important to say.
不，我认为这句话说得很好而且很重要。
So the data is there when you look at couples who have orgasm.
所以当你观察有性高潮的夫妻时，数据就在那里。
We've also, however, found benefits of masturbation.
然而，我们也发现了手淫的好处。
It's not frequently spoken about, but if you do some surveys, it turns out that people will often use masturbation as a sleep tool if they're struggling with sleep.
这并不经常被提及，但如果你做一些调查，就会发现，如果人们睡眠困难，他们经常会使用手淫作为睡眠工具。
I know this sounds almost like a strange conversation, or it's a taboo conversation, but I think we just need to be very open about all this.
我知道这听起来像是一次奇怪的对话，或者是一次禁忌对话，但我认为我们只需要对这一切保持非常开放的态度。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I started off in science; one of the things I worked on early in my career, the very first topic, was the topic of early influences of hormones, estrogen and testosterone, on sexual development of the brain and body.
我从科学开始；我在职业生涯早期从事的工作之一，第一个主题，是激素、雌激素和睾酮对大脑和身体性发育的早期影响。
When you are weaned in a laboratory like that, regardless of what era, you look at sex and its behaviors and its hormones and its physiologies as a scientist.
当你在这样的实验室里断奶时，无论哪个时代，你都会以科学家的身份观察性及其行为、激素和生理机能。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
To be clear, what we're doing here, we're exploring these behaviors from the ...
需要明确的是，我们在这里所做的，是从……探索这些行为。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And we're exploring these behaviors from that perspective.
我们正在从这个角度探索这些行为。
I mean, one thing is for certain, everyone is here because a sperm met an egg, either in a dish or in vivo, as we said before, and, at least in 2021, there's no way around that fact.
我的意思是，有一件事是肯定的，每个人都在这里，因为精子遇到了卵子，无论是在培养皿中还是在体内，正如我们之前所说，而且，至少在 2021 年，这是无法回避的事实。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And what preceded that, is typically this act we call sex.
在此之前，通常是我们称之为性的行为。
And sometimes, hopefully, I like to think, orgasm is associated with that sexual activity.
有时，我希望性高潮与性活动有关。
Masturbation is one dimension of that, is something that I think it can and should be discussed if in fact there are data that relate it to sleep.
手淫是其中的一个方面，我认为如果实际上有数据将其与睡眠联系起来，那么我认为可以而且应该讨论它。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Yeah.
是的。
And both of those routes seem to lead to a sleep benefit.
这两条途径似乎都能带来睡眠益处。
Now, I'm not saying that it's all about the orgasm.
现在，我并不是说这一切都与性高潮有关。
I think as we spoke about with oxytocin, there is some degree of pair bonding, that if you have a partner and you experience an intimate, loving relationship that involves that, then you can have hormonal benefits that are sleep promoting that may not necessarily be seen if you're just engaging in the solo singular act of masturbation.
我认为，正如我们谈到的催产素，存在一定程度的夫妻关系，如果你有一个伴侣，并且你经历了一种亲密的、充满爱意的关系，那么你就可以获得促进睡眠的荷尔蒙益处，而如果你只是进行单独的单一自慰行为，这些益处可能不一定会被看到。
So what we certainly know now ...
所以我们现在肯定知道的是......
and I am not someone to take any advice on when it comes to anything relationshipwise or sexwise, but-
当涉及到任何关系或性方面的事情时，我不是一个可以接受任何建议的人，但是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's a different episode of the podcast.
这是播客的另一集。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Yeah, yeah, yeah, certainly.
是啊，是啊，是啊，当然。
And that's not a podcast series that I'm going to be releasing anytime soon.
这不是我很快就会发布的播客系列。
It's going to be mostly about sleep.
这主要与睡眠有关。
Although I will touch on — I'll release a podcast on sleep and sex.
虽然我会谈到——我会发布一个关于睡眠和性的播客。
But that's the data that we have so far.
但这是我们迄今为止所掌握的数据。
We also know that it works both ways, though.
不过，我们也知道它是双向的。
And it's commonly the same way with sleep.
睡眠通常也是如此。
Sleep and exercise, sleep and diet.
睡眠与运动，睡眠与饮食。
How you eat can affect how you sleep, how you sleep can affect how you eat.
你的饮食方式会影响你的睡眠方式，你的睡眠方式也会影响你的饮食方式。
Same with exercise, and it turns out it's the same way with sexual behavior too.
运动也是如此，性行为也是如此。
So here we're talking about whether sex can help with sleep.
所以这里我们要讨论的是性是否可以帮助睡眠。
Can sleep help with your relationship and sex?
睡眠对你们的关系和性有帮助吗？
And the answer is: yes, it can.
答案是：是的，可以。
Firstly, we know, and we've spoken a little bit about this, that the reproductive hormones are under profound sleep regulation-
首先，我们知道，并且我们已经对此进行了一些讨论，生殖激素受到深刻的睡眠调节 -
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Both estrogen and testosterone.
雌激素和睾酮。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Estrogen, testosterone-
雌激素、睾酮-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because we hear so often about testosterone-
因为我们经常听说睾酮——
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
FSH, as well.
促卵泡激素也一样。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
but women who, or I should say anyone who's interested in having higher levels of estrogen or normal, healthy levels of estrogen, I presume the data show for estrogen what the data also show similarly for testosterone.
但是对于女性，或者我应该说任何对更高水平的雌激素或正常、健康的雌激素水平感兴趣的女性，我认为数据显示的雌激素与睾酮的数据显示的类似。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Testosterone.
睾酮。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
If you get too little or poor quality of sleep, both sex steroid hormones, as they're referred to, testosterone and estrogen, which are present in both males and females and every variation thereof, are going to be diminished below normal, healthy levels.
如果你的睡眠太少或质量差，男性和女性及其各种变体中都存在的性类固醇激素（即所谓的睾酮和雌激素）都会减少到正常、健康的水平以下。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Yep, estrogen, testosterone, FSH in women, a key hormone in the regulation for ...
是的，女性体内的雌激素、睾酮、FSH，是调节...的关键激素。
key for conception, of course.
当然，受孕的关键。
All of these sex hormones seem to become significantly disrupted when sleep becomes of short quantity or poor quality.
当睡眠量不足或质量差时，所有这些性激素似乎都会受到显着干扰。
We also know that in women sleep disruption can usually lead to menstrual cycle disruption.
我们还知道，女性睡眠中断通常会导致月经周期中断。
We know this particularly from evidence in shift working women, where they are nighttime shift workers; they struggle with sleep during the day; often menstruation is disrupted or even becomes impaired.
我们特别从轮班女性的证据中了解到这一点，她们是夜班工人；他们白天难以入睡；月经经常被扰乱甚至受损。
But we also know it works this way not just for sex hormones, but for sex itself.
但我们也知道，它不仅对性激素起作用，而且对性本身也起作用。
For example, we found that for every one hour of sleep, extra sleep that a woman gets, her interest in becoming sexually intimate with her partner increases by 14%, which is-
例如，我们发现，女性每多睡一小时，她对与伴侣发生亲密性行为的兴趣就会增加 14%，即——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Substantial.
实质性的。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
...
...
a nontrivial amount.
一笔不小的数目。
And then the final part of, I think, this equation when it comes to sleep and sex is your relationship itself.
然后，我认为，当涉及到睡眠和性时，这个等式的最后一部分就是你们的关系本身。
And there's some great work here from UC Berkeley, by Professor Serena Chen.
这里有一些来自加州大学伯克利分校的 Serena Chen 教授的出色工作。
And what she found was that restless nights mean for far more brutal fights in your relationship.
她发现，不安的夜晚意味着你们的关系中会出现更加残酷的争吵。
And they did this in-
他们这样做是在-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And vice versa.
反之亦然。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
...
...
number of different, elegant ways, and vice versa as well.
许多不同的、优雅的方式，反之亦然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I mean, not that I've ever had conflict in relationships, but-
我的意思是，并不是说我曾经在人际关系中发生过冲突，但是——
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Me ...
我...
This is just data I've read, I've never experienced that at all.
这只是我读到的数据，我根本没有经历过。
And they found reliably that sleep would predict higher likelihood of relationship conflict.
他们可靠地发现，睡眠可以预测人际关系冲突的可能性更高。
Secondly, if you got into that conflict, the chances of you resolving it were significantly lower when the parties had not been sleeping well.
其次，如果你陷入了冲突，当双方都睡不好时，你解决冲突的机会就会大大降低。
Part of the reason is because when you are not well slept, your empathy goes down.
部分原因是当你睡眠不好时，你的同理心就会下降。
So you are taking more of an abrasive stance with your partner rather than a more agreeable stance with your partner.
因此，你对伴侣采取的态度更加粗暴，而不是更加和蔼可亲。
So at almost every dimension of a human loving relationship, sleep can have a dramatic impact.
因此，在人类爱情关系的几乎每个方面，睡眠都会产生巨大的影响。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think these are really important things to underscore.
我认为这些都是需要强调的非常重要的事情。
One of the most common questions I get, because there seems to be a community of people on the Internet that are obsessed with this — I don't know who they are because it's, all this Internet stuff is shouting into a tunnel and getting comments back and written for them; It's a very bizarre conversation, so to speak — is whether or not sexual behavior itself lowers or increases testosterone?
我收到的最常见的问题之一是，因为互联网上似乎有一群人对此着迷——我不知道他们是谁，因为所有这些互联网内容都在对着隧道大喊大叫，并获取评论并为他们撰写；可以这么说，这是一场非常奇怪的对话——性行为本身是否会降低或增加睾丸激素？
And I went into the data which expands many decades actually, both animal studies and human studies.
我研究了实际上扩展了数十年的数据，包括动物研究和人类研究。
And it seems just to underscore this, as long as we're talking about this subject, that it does seem that sexual activity, sex between two people, does seem to increase testosterone in both.
这似乎只是为了强调这一点，只要我们谈论这个主题，性活动，两个人之间的性行为，似乎确实会增加双方的睾丸激素。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There is this question about orgasm or no orgasm, ejaculation, no ejaculation, and indeed there do seem to be some effects of restricting ejaculation in males as a form of further increasing testosterone.
存在关于性高潮或无性高潮、射精、不射精的问题，事实上，作为进一步增加睾酮的一种形式，限制男性射精似乎确实有一些影响。
So sex without ejaculation further increasing testosterone.
因此，不射精的性行为会进一步增加睾酮水平。
But the data are not clean-
但数据并不干净——
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
presumably because organizing these sorts of studies and getting truth in self-reporting is probably hard to get from subjects.
大概是因为组织这类研究并从受试者的自我报告中获取真相可能很难。
But everything sort of points in the direction that, provided that the relationship is a healthy one — it's consensual, it's age appropriate, context appropriate, species appropriate — that sex between two individuals does seem to increase the sex steroid hormones, testosterone and estrogen, toward healthy ranges.
但一切都表明，只要这种关系是健康的——双方同意、适合年龄、适合背景、适合物种——两个人之间的性行为似乎确实会使性类固醇激素、睾酮和雌激素增加到健康范围。
And what I'm hearing now, the sort of gestalt of what ...
我现在听到的，是一种格式塔……
of the discussion we just had is, that too can promote sleepiness, restful states and quality sleep.
我们刚才讨论的是，这也可以促进困倦、宁静的状态和高质量的睡眠。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I think this is an important conversation that just hasn't been held enough.
我认为这是一次重要的对话，只是还没有进行足够的对话。
I mean sooner or later, both in the U.S. and elsewhere, we're going to have to acknowledge that we are biological organisms of some sort and that we have choice in life about all these things, from supplementation to sex or no sex, et cetera.
我的意思是，迟早，无论是在美国还是在其他地方，我们都必须承认我们是某种生物有机体，并且我们在生活中对所有这些事情都有选择，从补充到性或不性，等等。
But that they have profound effects on our core biology.
但它们对我们的核心生物学有着深远的影响。
I mean, it's fascinating to me that the areas of the hypothalamus, the preoptic area, the supraoptic areas, those areas which the names might not mean anything to anybody besides Matt and I sitting here, but those areas sit cheek-to-jowl with each other in the hypothalamus and control sleep and sex.
我的意思是，令我着迷的是下丘脑的区域，视前区，视上区，这些区域的名称可能对除了马特和我坐在这里的任何人都没有任何意义，但这些区域在下丘脑中彼此贴近，控制着睡眠和性。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The trigger of orgasm, the appetite for food-
性高潮的触发因素，对食物的食欲——
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Yeah, you can say-
是的，你可以说——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
the appetite for water, for electrolytes.
对水和电解质的需求。
I mean the hypothalamus is kind of a festival of neurons with different booths for different-
我的意思是下丘脑是一种神经元的节日，有不同的摊位用于不同的-
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
It's such a small-
这么小——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
primitive behaviors.
原始行为。
Right.
正确的。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
...
...
small structure in the brain, but it's the orchestrator of a vast number of our behaviors.
大脑中的一个小结构，但它是我们大量行为的协调者。
Disproportionate in terms of its size versus effect.
其规模与效果不成比例。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
I don't think you can go to this hypothalamic festival without at least seeing all the booths, whether or not you decide to visit them or not.
我认为，无论您是否决定参观它们，至少在没有看到所有展位的情况下，您就不能参加这个下丘脑节。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
I love that ...
我喜欢那个...
master analogy.
高手比喻。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So I'm glad that we've broached that conversation, and I hope people will think that we've approached it with the appropriate level of sensitivity.
所以我很高兴我们进行了这样的对话，我希望人们会认为我们已经以适当的敏感度来处理它。
It's an important one that we're going to hear more about one way or the other.
这是一件很重要的事情，我们将会以某种方式听到更多关于这一点的信息。
People are certainly thinking about this, if not engaging in these sorts of behaviors or avoiding them.
人们肯定会考虑这一点，即使没有参与或避免此类行为。
So the more we can understand about the biology, the better.
因此，我们对生物学了解得越多越好。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Well said.
说得好。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And so thank you for bringing that topic up because, for the record, Matt tabled it for discussion.
因此，感谢您提出这个话题，因为根据记录，马特将其搁置进行讨论。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
I said ...
我说……
We were just like chatting outside, and I think we said something about,-
我们就像在外面聊天一样，我想我们说了一些关于——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sure.
当然。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
...
...
sort of, sex and I said, "Yeah, we can go there, there's some actually interesting data."
有点像性，我说，“是的，我们可以去那里，那里有一些非常有趣的数据。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
I want to touch on just two remaining topics.
我只想谈谈剩下的两个话题。
One is, are there any unconventional sleep tips or things about sleep that we've overlooked?
一是，是否有任何非常规的睡眠技巧或我们忽略的有关睡眠的事情？
If we've covered everything, great.
如果我们已经涵盖了所有内容，那就太好了。
But we hear to keep the room cool, we hear because of this temperature phenomenon, the light aspects, the considerations about alcohol, CBD, marijuana, cognitive behavioral, tart cherry fruit, kiwis, perhaps-
但我们听说要保持房间凉爽，我们听说是因为这种温度现象、光线方面、对酒精、CBD、大麻、认知行为、酸樱桃、猕猴桃的考虑，也许——
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
.
。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Perhaps-
或许——
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Please don't put me on the hook for tart cherries and kiwi.
请不要让我为酸樱桃和猕猴桃而烦恼。
I was just offering what I know about the ways, I'm not-
我只是提供我所知道的方法，我不是-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, and these are considerations and whether or not people batch these things.
不，这些都是考虑因素以及人们是否批量处理这些东西。
I won't even list them off now because there are too many jokes that one could make.
我现在就不一一列举了，因为可以闹出的笑话太多了。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
And I have no affiliation with any of these products or companies or anything so-
我与这些产品或公司或任何类似的东西没有任何关系——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, I'm going to take out stock in a kiwi company.
好吧，我要买掉一家奇异果公司的股票。
No, I'm just kidding.
不，我只是开玩笑。
But the question I have is about any unconventional or lesser known things, or maybe you do things or you think about things just in a purely exploratory way as a scientist.
但我的问题是关于任何非常规或鲜为人知的事情，或者也许你作为科学家只是以纯粹探索性的方式做事或思考事情。
The "what if" kind of things that ...
诸如此类的“假设”之类的事情...
"Yeah, what if it turns out that," and here I just, I've got a blank there for you to fill in.
“是的，如果事实证明是这样怎么办？”我只是，我有一个空白供你填写。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
I think you're beyond the standard fare that I've dished out plenty of times of sleep hygiene, of regularity, temperature, darkness, alcohol, caffeine — and we've spoken about all of those.
我认为你超出了我多次提出的睡眠卫生、规律、温度、黑暗、酒精、咖啡因的标准票价——我们已经讨论过所有这些。
What are some more unconventional tips, I guess?
我猜还有哪些非传统的技巧？
The first one which is unconventional, along the lines of naps: if you've had a bad night of sleep, let's say that you are starting to emerge with insomnia and you've had a bad night of sleep, the advice, and I learned this from my wonderful colleague, Michael Perlis: do nothing.
第一个是非常规的，类似于小睡：如果你一夜睡不好，假设你开始出现失眠，并且你一夜睡不好，我从我出色的同事 Michael Perlis 那里学到了这一点：什么也不做。
What I mean by that is don't wake up any later, don't sleep in the following day to try and make up for it, don't nap during the day, don't consume extra caffeine to wake you up — to try to get you through the day — and don't go to bed any earlier to think that you're going to compensate.
我的意思是，不要起得太晚，不要在第二天睡觉来试图弥补，不要在白天小睡，不要摄入额外的咖啡因来叫醒你——试图让你度过这一天——也不要提前上床睡觉，以为你会补偿。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
And I can explain all of those things, but if you wake up later, you're not going to be sleepy until later the evening.
我可以解释所有这些事情，但如果你起床晚了，你就不会在晚上晚些时候才困。
So you're going to go to bed at your normal time and you won't be sleeping.
所以你会在正常时间上床睡觉，但你不会睡觉。
You'll think, "Well, I just came off a bad night of sleep and now I still ...
你会想，“好吧，我刚刚睡了一个糟糕的夜晚，现在我仍然......
I can't even get to sleep and it's my normal time." It's because you slept in later than you would otherwise, and you reduced the window of adenosine accumulation before your normal bedtime.
我什至无法入睡，而这是我的正常时间。”这是因为您比平时睡得晚，并且减少了正常就寝时间之前腺苷积累的时间。
So don't wake up any later.
所以以后别再醒来了。
Don't use more caffeine, for the reasons that are obvious, because that's only going to crank you and keep you awake the following night, or decrease the probability of a good following night of recovery sleep.
不要摄入更多的咖啡因，原因很明显，因为这只会让你在第二天晚上保持清醒，或者降低第二天晚上恢复良好睡眠的可能性。
Third, I mentioned don't take naps because once again that will just take ...
第三，我提到不要小睡，因为这会再次...
Naps, particularly later in the afternoon, I almost liken them to snacking before a main meal.
小睡，特别是在下午晚些时候，我几乎把它们比作正餐前的零食。
It just takes your appetite off the edge of that main meal of sleep.
它只会让你的食欲脱离睡眠主餐的边缘。
So don't do it.
所以不要这样做。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
And then finally, don't go to bed any earlier.
最后，不要太早睡觉。
Resist and resist and go to bed at your normal time.
抵制再抵制，按正常时间上床睡觉。
What I want to try and do is prevent you from thinking, "Well, I had such a bad night last night, and I normally go to bed at 10:30; I'm just going to get into bed at nine o'clock because last night was just so bad." But that's not your natural bedtime, and it's not aligned with your natural chronotype, because presumably you kind of know something about that, or are a morning type, evening type, and you're trying to sleep in harmony, which is usually how you get best quality sleep.
我想要尝试做的是防止你这样想：“好吧，我昨晚过得很糟糕，我通常在 10:30 睡觉；我只会在 9 点上床睡觉，因为昨晚太糟糕了。”但这不是你自然的就寝时间，也不符合你的自然生物钟类型，因为你可能对此有所了解，或者是早起型、晚间型，并且你试图和谐地睡眠，这通常是你获得最佳质量睡眠的方式。
But you go to bed at nine, and my body is not ready to sleep at nine o'clock.
但你九点睡觉，而我的身体在九点还没有准备好睡觉。
But I'm worried because I had a bad night of sleep last night, so I get into bed, and now I'm tossing and turning for the first hour and a half because it's not my natural sleep window.
但我很担心，因为我昨晚睡得很不好，所以我上床睡觉，现在我在前一个半小时里翻来覆去，因为这不是我的自然睡眠时间。
But I just thought it was a good idea.
但我只是觉得这是个好主意。
And if I didn't know anything about sleep, I would think all of these same things too, so I'm not finger wagging.
如果我对睡眠一无所知，我也会想到所有这些同样的事情，所以我不会摇手指。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
If I have a bad night of sleep ...
如果我晚上睡不好......
And I am not immune just because I know a little bit about sleep, doesn't mean I don't have my bad nights.
我也不能幸免，仅仅因为我对睡眠有一点了解，并不意味着我不会经历糟糕的夜晚。
I do.
我愿意。
Doesn't mean I haven't had bouts of insomnia in my life.
这并不意味着我一生中没有经历过失眠。
I have.
我有。
But after a bad night of sleep, I do nothing.
但经过一夜不好的睡眠后，我什么也没做。
I don't do any of those four things.
这四件事我都不做。
I think the second tip I would offer in terms of unconventional is have a wind-down routine.
我认为我要提供的第二个非常规建议是制定一个放松程序。
Many of us think of sleep as if it's like a light switch.
我们许多人认为睡眠就像一个电灯开关。
That we just jump into bed and when we turn the light out, sleep should arrive in that same way.
我们只要跳上床，当我们关灯时，睡眠也应该以同样的方式到来。
Just the binary, it's on or it's off.
只是二进制文件，它打开或关闭。
Sleep is a physiological process.
睡眠是一个生理过程。
It's much more like landing a plane.
这更像是降落飞机。
It takes time to gradually descend down onto the terra firma of what we call good solid sleep at night.
逐渐下降到我们所说的夜间良好睡眠的陆地上需要时间。
Find out whatever works for you, and it could be light stretching.
找出对你有用的方法，它可能是轻微的伸展运动。
I usually meditate for about 10 or 15 minutes before bed.
我通常在睡前冥想大约10或15分钟。
Some people like reading.
有些人喜欢读书。
Try not to watch television in bed.
尽量不要在床上看电视。
That's usually advised against.
通常建议不要这样做。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Just something that doesn't emit too much light to your eye.
只是不会向您的眼睛发出太多光线的东西。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Too much light, too activating.
光线太多，太活跃。
You know, you can listen to a relaxing podcast, although we can speak about technology in the bedroom too, but have some kind of a wind-down routine.
你知道，你可以听一个轻松的播客，虽然我们也可以在卧室里谈论科技，但要有某种放松的习惯。
It's almost ...
这几乎是...
You wouldn't race into your garage and come to a screeching halt from 60 miles an hour.
你不会冲进车库，然后以 60 英里的时速急刹车。
You typically downshift your gears, and you slow down as you come into the garage.
您通常会降档，并在进入车库时放慢速度。
That's the same thing with sleep too.
睡眠也是如此。
So, that's the second thing.
所以，这是第二件事。
Have some kind of a wind-down routine.
进行某种放松活动。
Find what works for you, maybe it's taking a hot bath or a warm shower, and then stick to it.
找到对你有效的方法，也许是洗热水澡或洗热水澡，然后坚持下去。
We do this with kids all the time.
我们一直和孩子们一起这样做。
We find out what their bedroom, sorry, their bedtime regiment is, and then we just stick to it faithfully, because we humans are the same way too.
我们找出他们的卧室，抱歉，他们的就寝时间安排是什么，然后我们就忠实地坚持下去，因为我们人类也是如此。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
The third thing is a myth.
第三件事是一个神话。
Don't count sheep.
不要数羊。
There's a study done here at UC Berkeley.
加州大学伯克利分校进行了一项研究。
I didn't do this today, I wish I did — it was by my colleague, Professor Allison Harvey.
我今天没有这样做，我希望我这样做了——这是我的同事艾莉森·哈维教授做的。
And they found that counting sheep actually made it harder to fall asleep.
他们发现数羊实际上会让人更难入睡。
It made matters worse.
这让事情变得更糟。
As a countermeasure to that, what they did find was that taking yourself on some kind of a mental walk — so think about a nice walk that you take in nature or a walk on the beach, or even a walk around an urban environment-
作为对此的对策，他们确实发现，让自己进行某种精神漫步——想象一下在大自然中散步，或者在海滩上散步，甚至在城市环境中散步——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Just visualizing that.
只是想象一下。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
...
...
and visualizing that, that seemed to be beneficial.
想象一下，这似乎是有益的。
The other thing about sort of that idea of shifting focus away from your mind itself, get your mind off itself, is a good piece of advice.
另一件关于将注意力从你的思想本身转移开的想法，让你的思想离开它本身，是一个很好的建议。
Catharsis.
导泻。
You can try to write down all of the concerns that you have, and do this not right before bed but usually an hour or two before bed.
您可以尝试写下您所担心的所有问题，并且不要在睡觉前这样做，而通常是在睡觉前一两个小时这样做。
Some people call it a worry journal.
有些人称之为忧虑日记。
And to me, it's a little bit like closing down all of the emotional tabs on my browser.
对我来说，这有点像关闭浏览器上的所有情感选项卡。
Because if I shut the computer down and all of those tabs are still open, I'm going to come back in the morning and the computer's red hot, the fan is going because it didn't go to sleep.
因为如果我关闭计算机并且所有这些选项卡仍然打开，那么我早上回来时计算机会变得很热，风扇也会转动，因为它没有进入睡眠状态。
Because it couldn't, because there were too many tabs active and open.
因为它不能，因为有太多活动和打开的选项卡。
I think it's the same way with sleep as well.
我认为睡眠也是如此。
So try to think about doing that.
所以尝试考虑这样做。
So just vomit out all of your concerns on the page, and if there's emotional-
所以只要在页面上吐出你所有的担忧，如果有情绪-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I like that, because my 3:00 a.m.
我喜欢这样，因为我的凌晨 3:00
waking is often associated with me writing down the list of things that I forgot to do that I need to do.
醒来常常让我联想到写下我忘记做但需要做的事情清单。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And once I eventually wake up from the later night, second half of the night's sleep, that stuff seems much more tractable and reasonable, but it sure would be great to get that stuff out of the way before sleep.
一旦我最终从深夜、后半夜的睡眠中醒来，这些东西似乎更容易处理和合理，但在睡觉前把这些东西清除掉肯定会很棒。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Well, there's also something that I don't think people have spoken about a lot and I'd like to research it.
嗯，还有一些我认为人们没有经常谈论的事情，我想研究一下。
Which is, difficulty and anxiety at night in the dark is not the same difficulty and anxiety in the light of day.
也就是说，晚上在黑暗中的困难和焦虑与白天的困难和焦虑不同。
And when we have those thoughts at night, it comes with a magnitude of rumination and catastrophization that is disproportionate to that which you would describe when you are awake.
当我们在晚上有这些想法时，就会伴随着大量的沉思和灾难，这与你清醒时所描述的不成比例。
And I don't know what's going on about the brain and thought and emotion at the time.
而且我不知道当时的大脑、思想和情感发生了什么。
I've got a bunch of theories as to why.
我有很多关于原因的理论。
And that's why I like the idea of closing up, zipping up all of those different components.
这就是为什么我喜欢关闭所有这些不同组件的想法。
Just get them out on the page, and I at first thought, this just sounds like hooey, it sounds very Berkeley.
只要把它们放在页面上，我一开始就想，这听起来像是胡言乱语，听起来很伯克利。
It's kind of kumbaya, we all hold hands and walk home at the end of the day.
这有点像kumbaya，一天结束时我们都手牵着手走回家。
But then the data started coming out, really good studies from good people, and they found that keeping one of those journals decreased the time it takes you to fall asleep by 50%.
但后来数据开始出现，来自优秀人士的非常好的研究，他们发现写一本这样的日记可以让你入睡的时间减少 50%。
Five zero.
五零。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Amazing.
太棒了。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
It's well on par-
相当不错-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's substantial.
这很重要。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
...
...
with any pharmaceutical agent.
与任何药剂。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, abso-
噢，绝对——
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I've long thought that the worries and concerns and ideas I have at 3, 4:00 a.m., I've learned to not place any stock in them.
我长期以来一直认为，我在凌晨 3、4:00 所产生的担忧、担忧和想法，我已经学会了不把任何股票都放在其中。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because of something ...
因为某事...
I'm glad that you might decide to eventually look at this in your laboratory because I feel like something is melted away or altered.
我很高兴你最终决定在你的实验室里看看这个，因为我觉得有些东西被融化或改变了。
I suspect it's in the regulation of the autonomic nervous system, that it makes sense why a concern at 3, 4:00 a.m.
我怀疑这是自主神经系统的调节，所以凌晨 3、4:00 的担忧是有道理的。
ought to evoke more of a panic sense than a concern sense.
应该引起更多的恐慌感而不是担忧感。
And certainly that's my experience although not ...
当然，这是我的经验，尽管不是......
I'm fortunate to not suffer from full-blown panic attacks, but everything seems worse at 3, 4:00 a.m.-
我很幸运没有遭受全面的恐慌，但凌晨 3、4:00 一切似乎都变得更糟-
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
provided you're awake.
前提是你醒着。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
And we need to sort of look into that, because if you look at suicide rates around the 24-hour clock phase, disproportionately higher rates in those middle night hours.
我们需要对此进行研究，因为如果你观察 24 小时内的自杀率，就会发现午夜时段的自杀率要高得不成比例。
So, now I don't know if that's positive or not, but something ...
所以，现在我不知道这是否是积极的，但有些事情......
It could just be that that's the time when we're mostly lonely, and we're by ourselves, and that's the reason.
可能那是我们最孤独的时候，我们只有自己，这就是原因。
So it's got nothing to do with sleep or the nighttime.
所以这与睡眠或夜间无关。
I don't know.
我不知道。
So that's the third thing.
这是第三件事。
I think the fourth sort of little tip I would give that's unconventional is, remove all clock faces from your bedroom.
我想我要给出的第四种非常规的小建议是，把卧室里的所有钟面移走。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Including your phone.
包括你的手机。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Including your phone, and resist checking it.
包括你的手机，不要检查它。
Now I know, and I can speak about the phone too.
现在我知道了，我也可以谈论电话了。
That genie of technology is out the bottle, and it's not going back in anytime soon.
技术的精灵已经从瓶子里出来了，而且不会很快再回来。
So we've got to think, as scientist and sleep scientist, as to what we do with phones in the bedroom.
因此，作为科学家和睡眠科学家，我们必须思考我们在卧室里如何使用手机。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Years ago, I was a counselor at a summer camp.
几年前，我是一个夏令营的辅导员。
I worked with at-risk kids, and there was a phrase that comes to mind here.
我与高危儿童一起工作，这里想到了一句话。
It's "Be a channel, not a dam." Because when you try and dam certain kinds of behavior, physically dam certain kinds of behavior, not morally dam — that too — it just creeps over the edge and you get a waterfall, so it has-
这就是“做渠道，而不是水坝”。因为当你试图阻止某些行为时，在身体上阻止某些行为，而不是在道德上阻止——也是如此——它只是爬过边缘，你会得到瀑布，所以它-
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Yeah, so-
是啊，所以——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
to be channeled.
被引导。
The phone and devices have to be worked with and negotiated, not eliminated.
手机和设备必须进行配合和协商，而不是被淘汰。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
That's right.
没错。
And think about those mindfully too.
并用心思考这些。
But clock faces, remove all of those, because if you are having a tough night, knowing that it's 3:22 in the morning, or it's 4:48 in the morning, does not help you in the slightest.
但是钟面，去掉所有这些，因为如果你度过了一个艰难的夜晚，知道现在是凌晨 3:22 或凌晨 4:48，对你没有任何帮助。
And it's only going to make matters worse than better.
这只会让事情变得更糟而不是更好。
So try to remove all clock faces.
因此，请尝试删除所有钟面。
And I think that's one of those other tips that some people have found helpful.
我认为这是一些人认为有用的其他技巧之一。
But those would be, sort of, some slightly unconventional, I guess, more than your stock fair of "here are the five tips for sleep hygiene tonight."
但我想，这些有点不传统，比股票交易会上的“这是今晚睡眠卫生的五个秘诀”要多。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Those are terrific sleep tips and several of which, if not all of which, I'm going to incorporate.
这些都是很棒的睡眠技巧，我将采纳其中的一些（如果不是全部的话）。
Matt, this has been an amazing deep dive on sleep and its positive and negative regulators that's featured-
马特，这是对睡眠及其积极和消极调节因素的令人惊叹的深入研究，其特点是——
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
I hope it hasn't been too long and I don't-
我希望时间不会太长，但我不-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, this has been great.
不，这已经很棒了。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Please cut it down, shorten it to five minutes of meaningful stuff that I offer.
请缩短它，将其缩短为我提供的五分钟有意义的内容。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Absolutely not.
绝对不是。
Absolutely not ever.
绝对不是。
It is chock-a-block full of valuable takeaways.
它充满了有价值的外卖。
It's been tremendously fun for me to dissect out this incredible aspect of our lives that we call sleep with a fellow scientist and a fellow public educator.
与一位科学家同事和一位公共教育家同事一起剖析我们生活中这个令人难以置信的方面，我们称之为睡眠，对我来说是非常有趣的。
I want to say several things.
我想说几件事。
First of all, we should say where people can find you, although it shouldn't be that difficult these days.
首先，我们应该说人们可以在哪里找到你，尽管现在这应该不那么困难了。
You're very present on the Internet-
你在互联网上非常活跃-
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Unfortunately.
不幸的是。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
for better or for worse.
无论好坏。
I think it's wonderful that you're out there.
我觉得你在外面真是太好了。
Look, it's a public health service that you're doing.
看，你正在做的是一项公共卫生服务。
No one requires you or any other scientist to get out and share this information.
没有人要求您或任何其他科学家出去分享这一信息。
My sense of you, knowing you a bit, and from following your work very closely — both your scientific work in detail and your public-facing educational work — is that you very much want the best for people.
我对你的感觉，对你的了解，以及对你工作的密切关注——无论是你详细的科学工作还是面向公众的教育工作——是你非常希望人们得到最好的。
And it's an interesting thing as a scientist or a clinician to know that certain answers exist.
作为一名科学家或临床医生，知道某些答案的存在是一件有趣的事情。
That we don't have all the answers, but that there is a better path, there are better ways, and people can benefit in a myriad of ways.
我们没有所有的答案，但是有更好的道路，有更好的方法，人们可以通过多种方式受益。
So for that, because I know that to be very genuine in you, you want the best for people and you're offering tremendous advice and considerations, and people can take it or leave it — that's the way I view it.
因此，因为我知道你要真诚，你希望人们得到最好的，你会提供大量的建议和考虑，人们可以接受或离开——这就是我的看法。
I also want to thank you for taking the time out of your day to sit with me here and-
我还要感谢您抽出时间来和我坐在一起，并且——
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Not at all.
一点也不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
have this discussion.
有这个讨论。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Not at all.
一点也不。
It's a privilege, it's a delight.
这是一种荣幸，也是一种喜悦。
You and I, I think we're kind in lots of ways, and I take you as a shining example of how you can effectively connect with the public.
你和我，我认为我们在很多方面都很友善，我将你视为如何有效与公众联系的光辉榜样。
And I know that we've had our conversations before we ever sat down together about how to think about communicating with the public, and the pros and cons of that.
我知道，在我们坐下来讨论如何与公众沟通以及其利弊之前，我们就已经进行了对话。
And I've just loved your opinions.
我很喜欢你的意见。
I've been drinking it all in.
我已经把它全部喝进去了。
And then, I think the third thing I'd like to say is, thank you for being such an incredible sleep ambassador.
然后，我想我想说的第三件事是，感谢您成为如此令人难以置信的睡眠大使。
The series that you've released on sleep, the way that you speak about sleep, the way that you moderate and have championed sleep.
您发布的有关睡眠的系列文章、您谈论睡眠的方式、您调节和倡导睡眠的方式。
It is remarkable.
这是非常了不起的。
So thank you for just being a brother in arms in that way.
所以感谢你们以这种方式成为战友。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We are, and thanks for those words.
我们是，感谢您的这些话。
Ninety-nine percent of what I discussed there was the work of you and your colleagues in the sleep field, so proper acknowledgement — but thank you.
我在那里讨论的内容中有百分之九十九是您和您的同事在睡眠领域的工作，所以适当的致谢 - 但谢谢您。
Where can people learn more about what you're doing currently and what's coming next?
人们可以在哪里更多地了解您当前正在做的事情以及接下来要做的事情？
You're on Twitter.
你在推特上。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
I am on Twitter.
我在推特上。
I typically tweet-
我通常发推文——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
As the sleep diplomat.
作为睡眠外交官。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
No, it's just sleep diplomat.
不，这只是睡眠外交官。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sleep diplomat on Twitter,
Twitter 上的睡眠外交官，
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Sleep diplomat on Twitter, sleepdiplomat.com website.
Twitter、sleepdiplomat.com 网站上的睡眠外交官。
If you want to learn more about the science that we do here, it's humansleepscience.com.
如果您想了解有关我们在这里所做的科学的更多信息，请访问 humansleepscience.com。
It's the Center for Human Sleep Science.
这是人类睡眠科学中心。
You can pick up a copy of the book, if you want.
如果您愿意，您可以拿起这本书的副本。
It's called "Why We Sleep." If you're curious about sleep, that's one path to take and it's my view-
这本书的名字叫《我们为什么睡觉》。如果你对睡眠感到好奇，这是一种可以采取的方法，这也是我的观点 -
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is there another book, someday in the future.
将来的某一天还会有另一本书吗？
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
I think there may.
我想有可能。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Uh-huh.
嗯嗯。
Great, great.
太棒了，太棒了。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
I think there-
我认为有——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Many, many millions of people will be very happy to hear that.
许多、数百万人听到这个消息将会非常高兴。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
I think it's starting to take hold, and then as we discussed, I am more than kicking around the idea of a short-form podcast rather than a long-form.
我认为它已经开始流行，然后正如我们所讨论的，我不仅仅是在讨论短格式播客而不是长格式的想法。
Not long-form because I don't have the mental capacity or the interviewing capability that someone like you has.
不是长篇大论，因为我没有像你这样的人那样的心理能力或采访能力。
So it will probably just be monologue, short-form.
所以它可能只是独白，简短的形式。
So if there is some interest, I'll probably do that as well.
因此，如果有兴趣，我可能也会这么做。
So those are the ways that people can find me.
这些就是人们可以找到我的方式。
But overall, if you are interested in sleep, just listen to Andrew.
但总的来说，如果你对睡眠感兴趣，就听安德鲁的吧。
That's the best thing I can tell people.
这是我能告诉人们的最好的事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
All right, now we're batting back and forth the vector of action, so to speak.
好吧，现在我们正在来回打击动作向量，可以这么说。
But I do hope you'll start a podcast, however brief or lengthy these episodes turn out to be, because I do believe that's a great venue to get information out into the world.
但我确实希望你能开始播客，无论这些剧集有多短或多长，因为我确实相信这是向世界传播信息的绝佳场所。
And we don't just want to hear more from Matt Walker.
我们不仅仅想听到马特·沃克的更多信息。
I speak for many people.
我代表很多人说话。
We need to.
我们需要。
The work you're doing is both influential, but more importantly, it is important work.
你所做的工作既具有影响力，但更重要的是，它是重要的工作。
It has the impact that's needed, especially in this day and age, where science and medicine, public health and the issues of the world, et cetera, are really converging.
它具有所需的影响，特别是在当今时代，科学和医学、公共卫生和世界问题等真正融合在一起。
So I know I speak on behalf of a tremendous number of people when I just say thank you for doing the work you do and for being you, and thanks for being a good friend.
因此，我知道，当我对你们所做的工作和所做的工作表示感谢，并感谢你们成为好朋友时，我代表了很多人。
Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克：
Likewise, too.
同样，也是如此。
And by the way, I just going to note that it was nice that the two of us both got the Johnny Cash memo about how to dress today.
顺便说一句，我想指出的是，很高兴我们两个人都收到了约翰尼·卡什关于今天如何着装的备忘录。
It seems as though we're both kind of ...
看来我们俩都是那种...
We got that same memo, which will mean nothing to people who are listening, but if you are watching the video, you'll probably see what I mean.
我们收到了同样的备忘录，这对于正在收听的人来说毫无意义，但如果您正在观看视频，您可能会明白我的意思。
Andrew, thank you for taking this time.
安德鲁，感谢您抽出宝贵的时间。
Thank you so much.
太感谢了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thanks so much, Matt.
非常感谢，马特。
Thank you for joining me for my discussion with Dr. Matt Walker.
感谢您参加我与马特·沃克博士的讨论。
Please also check out his podcast, the Matt Walker podcast.
另请查看他的播客，马特·沃克播客。
A link to that podcast can be found in the show notes.
可以在节目注释中找到该播客的链接。
If you're enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to us on YouTube.
如果您喜欢这个播客，请在 YouTube 上订阅我们。
On YouTube, you can also leave us comments and suggestions for future episodes and guests in the comment section.
在 YouTube 上，您还可以在评论部分给我们留下对未来剧集和嘉宾的意见和建议。
As well, please subscribe to us on Apple and on Spotify, and at Apple, you can leave us up to a five-star review.
另外，请在 Apple 和 Spotify 上订阅我们，在 Apple，您可以给我们留下五星级的评论。
Please also check out our sponsors, mentioned at the beginning of this episode.
另请查看本集开头提到的我们的赞助商。
Links to those sponsors can be found in the show notes.
这些赞助商的链接可以在演出笔记中找到。
And last, but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.
最后但同样重要的是，感谢您对科学的兴趣。