Dr. Matthew MacDougall: Neuralink & Technologies to Enhance Human Brains
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.
欢迎来到休伯曼实验室播客，我们在这里讨论科学和基于科学的日常生活工具。
I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.
我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。
Today, my guest is Dr. Matthew MacDougall.
今天，我的嘉宾是马修·麦克杜格尔博士。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall is the head neurosurgeon at Neuralink.
Matthew MacDougall 博士是 Neuralink 的首席神经外科医生。
Neuralink is a company whose goal is to develop technologies to overcome specific clinical challenges of the brain and nervous system, as well as to improve upon brain design.
Neuralink 是一家公司，其目标是开发技术来克服大脑和神经系统的特定临床挑战，并改进大脑设计。
That is, to improve the way that brains currently function by augmenting memory, by augmenting cognition, and by improving communication between humans and between machines and humans.
也就是说，通过增强记忆、增强认知以及改善人与人之间以及机器与人之间的沟通来改善大脑当前的功能方式。
These are all, of course, tremendous goals, and Neuralink is uniquely poised to accomplish these goals because they are approaching these challenges by combining both existing knowledge of brain function from the fields of neuroscience and neurosurgery with robotics, machine learning, computer science, and the development of novel devices in order to change the ways that human brains work for the better.
当然，这些都是巨大的目标，而 Neuralink 完全准备好实现这些目标，因为他们正在通过将神经科学和神经外科领域现有的大脑功能知识与机器人、机器学习、计算机科学和新型设备的开发相结合来应对这些挑战，以便更好地改变人类大脑的工作方式。
Today's conversation with Dr. Matthew MacDougall is a truly special one because I and many others in science and medicine consider neurosurgeons the astronauts of neuroscience and the brain.
今天与 Matthew MacDougall 博士的对话确实很特别，因为我和科学和医学界的许多其他人都认为神经外科医生是神经科学和大脑的宇航员。
That is, they go where others have simply not gone before and are in a position to discover incredibly novel things about how the human brain works because they are literally in there probing and cutting, stimulating, et cetera, and able to monitor how people's cognition and behavior and speech changes as the brain itself is changed structurally and functionally.
也就是说，它们去往其他人从未去过的地方，并且能够发现有关人类大脑如何工作的令人难以置信的新奇事物，因为它们实际上在那里进行探索、切割、刺激等，并且能够监测人们的认知、行为和言语随着大脑本身结构和功能的变化而变化。
Today's discussion with Dr. MacDougall will teach you how the brain works through the lens of a neurosurgeon.
今天与麦克杜格尔博士的讨论将通过神经外科医生的镜头告诉您大脑是如何工作的。
It will also teach you about Neuralink's specific perspective about which challenges of brain function and disease are immediately tractable, which ones they are working on now, that is, as well as where they see the future of augmenting brain function for sake of treating disease and for simply making brains work better.
它还将向您介绍 Neuralink 的具体观点，即哪些大脑功能和疾病的挑战可以立即解决，哪些是他们现在正在研究的，以及他们如何看待增强大脑功能以治疗疾病和让大脑更好地工作的未来。
Today's discussion also gets into the realm of devicing the peripheral nervous system.
今天的讨论还涉及周围神经系统的设计领域。
In fact, one thing that you'll learn is that Dr. MacDougall has a radio receiver implanted in the periphery of his own body.
事实上，您将了解到的一件事是麦克杜格尔博士在他自己的身体周围植入了一个无线电接收器。
He did this not to overcome any specific clinical challenge, but to overcome a number of daily, everyday life challenges, and in some ways to demonstrate the powerful utility of combining novel machines, novel devices with what we call our nervous system and different objects and technologies within the world.
他这样做并不是为了克服任何特定的临床挑战，而是为了克服许多日常生活挑战，并以某种方式展示将新颖机器、新颖设备与我们所谓的神经系统以及世界上不同物体和技术相结合的强大实用性。
I know that might sound a little bit mysterious, but you'll soon learn exactly what I'm referring to.
我知道这听起来有点神秘，但您很快就会明白我指的是什么。
And by the way, he also implanted his family members with similar devices.
顺便说一句，他还给自己的家人植入了类似的装置。
So while all of this might sound a little bit like science fiction, this is truly science reality.
因此，虽然所有这一切听起来有点像科幻小说，但这确实是科学现实。
These experiments, both the implantation of specific devices and the attempt to overcome specific movement disorders such as Parkinson's and other disorders of deep brain function, as well as to augment the human brain and make it work far better than it ever has in the course of human evolution, are experiments and things that are happening now at Neuralink.
这些实验，无论是植入特定的设备，还是试图克服特定的运动障碍，如帕金森氏症和其他深部大脑功能障碍，以及增强人类大脑并使其比人类进化过程中的任何时候都更好地工作，都是 Neuralink 正在进行的实验和事情。
Dr. MacDougall also generously takes us under the hood, so to speak, of what's happening at Neuralink, explaining exactly the sorts of experiments that they are doing and have planned, how they are approaching those experiments.
MacDougall 博士还慷慨地向我们介绍了 Neuralink 正在发生的事情，准确解释了他们正在做和计划的实验类型，以及他们如何进行这些实验。
We get into an extensive conversation about the utility of animal versus human research in probing brain function and in devicing and improving the human brain and in overcoming disease in terms of neurosurgery and Neuralink's goals.
我们就动物与人类研究在探索大脑功能、设计和改善人类大脑以及克服神经外科和 Neuralink 目标方面的疾病方面的效用进行了广泛的讨论。
By the end of today's episode, you will have a much clearer understanding of how human brains work and how they can be improved by robotics and engineering, and you'll have a very clear picture of what Neuralink is doing toward these goals.
在今天的节目结束时，您将对人类大脑的工作原理以及如何通过机器人和工程学来改进人类大脑有更清晰的了解，并且您将对 Neuralink 为实现这些目标所做的工作有一个非常清晰的了解。
Dr. MacDougall did his medical training at the University of California San Diego and at Stanford University School of Medicine and, of course, is now at Neuralink.
MacDougall 博士在加州大学圣地亚哥分校和斯坦福大学医学院接受了医学培训，当然现在在 Neuralink 工作。
So he is in a unique stance to teach us about human brain function and dysfunction and to explain to us what the past, present, and future of brain augmentation is really all about.
因此，他以独特的立场向我们传授人类大脑功能和功能障碍，并向我们解释大脑增强的过去、现在和未来到底是什么。
Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.
在开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。
It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public.
然而，我的愿望和努力的一部分是向公众提供有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本消费者信息。
In keeping with that theme, I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast.
为了与这个主题保持一致，我要感谢今天播客的赞助商。
And now for my discussion with Dr. Matthew MacDougall.
现在我与马修·麦克杜格尔博士进行讨论。
Dr. MacDougall, welcome.
麦克杜格尔博士，欢迎光临。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Good to be here.
很高兴来到这里。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Great.
太棒了。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Nice to see you, Andrew.
很高兴见到你，安德鲁。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Great to see you again.
很高兴再次见到你。
We'll get into our history a little bit later, but just to kick things off, as a neurosurgeon and as a neuroscientist, could you share with us your vision of the brain as an organ as it relates to what's possible there?
我们稍后会介绍我们的历史，但首先，作为一名神经外科医生和神经科学家，您能否与我们分享一下您对大脑作为一个器官的看法，因为它与那里的可能性有关？
I think-
我认为——
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
most everyone understands that the brain is, along with the body, the seat of our cognition, feelings, our ability to move, et cetera, and that damage there can limit our ability to feel the way we want to feel or move the way we want to move.
大多数人都知道，大脑和身体一样，是我们认知、感觉、移动能力等的所在地，大脑的损伤会限制我们以我们想要的方式感受或以我们想要的方式移动的能力。
But surgeons tend to view the world a little bit differently than most because as the not-so-funny joke goes, they like to cut and they like to fix and they like to mend, and they, in your case, have the potential to add things into the brain that don't exist there already.
但外科医生对世界的看法往往与大多数人有所不同，因为正如那个不太好笑的笑话所说，他们喜欢切割，他们喜欢修复，他们喜欢修补，而且，就你而言，他们有潜力将一些不存在的东西添加到大脑中。
So how do you think about and conceptualize the brain as an organ, and what do you think is really possible with the brain that most of us don't already probably think about?
那么，您如何思考和概念化大脑作为一个器官？您认为大脑真正可能实现哪些我们大多数人可能还没有想到的功能？
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
That's a great question.
这是一个很好的问题。
Thinking about the brain as this three-pound lump of meat trapped in a prison of the skull, it seems almost magical that it could create a human set of behaviors and a life merely from electrical impulses.
将大脑想象成被困在头骨监狱中的这块三磅重的肉块，它仅仅通过电脉冲就能创造出人类的一系列行为和生命，这似乎几乎是神奇的。
When you start to see patients and see, say, a small tumor eating away at a little part of the brain and see a very discrete function of that brain go down in isolation, you start to realize that the brain really is a collection of functional modules pinned together, duct taped together in this bone box attached to your head.
当你开始看病人，看到一个小肿瘤正在吞噬大脑的一小部分，并看到大脑的一个非常离散的功能孤立地下降时，你开始意识到大脑实际上是一个固定在一起的功能模块的集合，通过管道用胶带粘在一起，固定在连接到你头部的骨盒中。
And sometimes you see very interesting failure modes.
有时你会看到非常有趣的故障模式。
So one of the most memorable patients I ever had was very early on in my training.
因此，我见过的最令人难忘的病人之一是在我训练的早期。
I was down at UC San Diego and saw a very young guy who had just been in a car accident.
我在加州大学圣地亚哥分校看到一个非常年轻的小伙子，他刚刚遭遇车祸。
We had operated on him, and as is so often the case in neurosurgery, we had saved his life, potentially at the cost of quality of life.
我们对他进行了手术，就像神经外科经常发生的情况一样，我们挽救了他的生命，但可能会牺牲生活质量。
When he woke from surgery with bilateral frontal lobe damage, he had essentially no impulse control left.
当他从双侧额叶损伤的手术中醒来时，他基本上已经失去了冲动控制能力。
And so we rounded on him after surgery, saw that he was doing okay to our first guess at his health, and we continued on to see our other patients.
因此，我们在手术后对他进行了查访，发现他的健康状况与我们最初猜测的健康状况相符，然后我们继续看望其他患者。
And we were called back by his 80-year-old recovery room nurse saying, "You've got to come see your patient right away.
他 80 岁的康复室护士给我们回电话说：“你必须马上来看你的病人。
Something's wrong." And we walk in to see him, and he points at his elderly nurse and says, "She won't have sex with me." And it was apparent at that moment his frontal lobes were gone, and that person is never going to have reasonable human behavior again.
出了点问题。”我们走进去见他，他指着他年长的护士说：“她不会和我发生性关系。”很明显，在那一刻，他的额叶消失了，那个人永远不会再有合理的人类行为。
And it's one of the most tragic ways to have a brain malfunction.
这是大脑功能障碍最悲惨的方式之一。
But anything a brain does, anything from control of hormone levels in your body to vision, to sensation, to the most obvious thing, which is muscle movement of any kind, from eye movement to moving your bicep all that comes out of the brain.
但大脑所做的任何事情，从控制体内激素水平到视觉、感觉，再到最明显的事情，即任何类型的肌肉运动，从眼球运动到移动二头肌，所有这些都来自大脑。
All of it can go wrong, any part of it or all of it.
所有的事情都可能出错，无论是其中的任何部分还是全部。
So yeah, working with the brain is the substance of the brain as a surgeon, very high stakes.
所以，是的，作为一名外科医生，与大脑合作是大脑的实质，风险非常高。
But once in a while, you get a chance to really help.
但偶尔，你会有机会真正提供帮助。
You get a chance to fix something that seems unfixable, and you have Lazarus-like miracles not too uncommonly.
你有机会解决一些看似无法解决的问题，并且你会创造拉撒路般的奇迹，这并不罕见。
So it's extremely satisfying as a career.
所以作为一个职业，这是非常令人满意的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Could you share with us one of the more satisfying experiences?
您能和我们分享一下您比较满意的经历之一吗？
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or perhaps the top contour of what qualifies as satisfying in neurosurgery?
或者也许是神经外科领域令人满意的顶部轮廓？
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
One of the relatively newer techniques that we do is if someone comes in with a reasonably small tumor somewhere deep in the brain that's hard to get to, the traditional approach to taking that out would involve cutting through a lot of good normal brain and disrupting a lot of neurons, a lot of white matter, kind of the wires connecting neurons.
我们所做的一项相对较新的技术是，如果某人在大脑深处某个地方长了一个相当小的肿瘤，而很难到达，那么传统的切除肿瘤的方法将涉及切断许多正常的大脑并破坏许多神经元，大量白质，一种连接神经元的电线。
Then the modern approach involves a two-millimeter drill hole in the skull down which you can pass a little fiber optic cannula and attach it to a laser and just heat the tumor up deep inside the brain under direct MRI visualization in real-time.
然后，现代方法包括在头骨上钻一个两毫米的孔，您可以穿过一个小光纤插管并将其连接到激光上，然后在直接 MRI 可视化下实时加热大脑深处的肿瘤。
So this person is in the MRI scanner.
所以这个人在核磁共振扫描仪中。
You're taking pictures every second or so.
你大约每秒都在拍照。
As the tumor heats up, you can monitor the temperature and get it exactly where you want it, where it's going to kill all those tumor cells, but not hurt hardly any of the brain surrounding it.
当肿瘤升温时，你可以监测温度并将其准确地送到你想要的地方，它会杀死所有这些肿瘤细胞，但几乎不会伤害它周围的任何大脑。
And so not uncommonly nowadays, we have someone come in with a tumor that previously would have been catastrophic to operate on, and we can eliminate that tumor with leaving a poke hole in their skin with almost no visual aftereffects.
因此，现在并不罕见，我们遇到的病人患有以前进行手术可能会造成灾难性的肿瘤，而我们可以通过在他们的皮肤上留下一个小孔来消除该肿瘤，而几乎不会产生任何视觉后遗症。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So that procedure that you just described translates into better clinical outcomes, meaning fewer, let's call them side effects or collateral damage.
因此，您刚才描述的程序可以转化为更好的临床结果，意味着更少，我们称之为副作用或附带损害。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Exactly right.
完全正确。
Yeah.
是的。
Even in cases that previously would have considered totally inoperable, say a tumor in the brain stem or a tumor in primary motor cortex or primary verbal areas, Broca's area where we would have expected to either not operate or do catastrophic damage, those people sometimes now are coming out unscathed.
即使在以前被认为完全无法手术的病例中，例如脑干肿瘤或初级运动皮层或初级语言区（布罗卡区）的肿瘤，我们预计这些肿瘤要么无法手术，要么造成灾难性损害，但这些人有时却毫发无伤。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm very curious about the sorts of basic information about brain function that can be gleaned from these clinical approaches of lesions and strokes and maybe even stimulation.
我很好奇关于大脑功能的基本信息，这些信息可以从这些病变和中风甚至刺激的临床方法中收集到。
So for instance, in your example of this patient that had bilateral frontal damage, what do you think his lack of regulation reveals about the normal functioning of the frontal lobes?
例如，在这位双侧额叶受损的患者的例子中，您认为他的缺乏调节揭示了额叶的正常功能？
Because I think the obvious answer to most people is going to be, well, the frontal lobes are normally limiting impulsivity.
因为我认为对大多数人来说显而易见的答案是，额叶通常会限制冲动。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But as we both know, because the brain has excitatory and inhibitory neurons as sort of accelerators and brakes on communication-
但正如我们都知道的，因为大脑有兴奋性和抑制性神经元，就像交流的加速器和刹车一样——
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that isn't necessarily the straightforward answer.
这不一定是直接的答案。
It could be, for instance, that the frontal lobes are acting as conductors-
例如，额叶可能充当导体——
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and are kind of important, but not the immediate players in determining impulsivity.
和 都很重要，但不是决定冲动的直接因素。
So two questions really.
确实有两个问题。
What do you think the frontal lobes are doing?
你认为额叶在做什么？
Because I'm very intrigued by this human expanded real estate.
因为我对这种人类扩展的房地产非常感兴趣。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We have a lot of it compared to other animals.
与其他动物相比，我们有很多。
And more generally, what do you think damage of a given neural tissue means in terms of understanding the basic function of that tissue?
更一般地说，您认为特定神经组织的损伤对于理解该组织的基本功能意味着什么？
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Yeah, it varies I think from tissue to tissue.
是的，我认为不同组织的情况有所不同。
But with respect to the frontal lobes, I think they act as sort of a filter.
但就额叶而言，我认为它们起到了某种过滤器的作用。
They selectively are saying, "Shh," backward to the rest of the brain behind them.
他们选择性地对身后的大脑其余部分说“嘘”。
When part of your brain says, "That looks very attractive.
当你大脑的一部分说：“这看起来很有吸引力。
I want to go grab it and take it out of the jewelry display case," or whatever.
我想把它从珠宝展示柜里拿出来，”或者其他什么。
The frontal lobes are saying You can if you go pay for it first, right?
额叶在说，如果你先付钱就可以，对吧？
They're filtering the behavior.
他们正在过滤行为。
They're letting the impulse through maybe, but in a controlled way.
他们也许会释放冲动，但是以一种受控的方式。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
This is very high level, very broad thinking about how the frontal lobes work, and that patient I mentioned earlier is a great example of when they go wrong.
这是关于额叶如何工作的非常高水平、非常广泛的思考，我之前提到的那个病人就是一个很好的例子，说明额叶何时会出错。
He had this sort of strange impulse to be attracted to his nurse that normally it would be easy for our frontal lobes to say, "This is completely inappropriate.
他有一种奇怪的冲动，想要被他的护士吸引，通常我们的额叶很容易说：“这完全不合适。
Wrong setting, wrong person, wrong time.
错误的环境、错误的人、错误的时间。
Shh."
嘘。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
In his case, he had nothing there, and so even the slightest inclination to want something came right up to the surface.
就他而言，他那里一无所有，所以即使是最轻微的想要得到什么的倾向也会直接浮现出来。
So yeah, a filter calming the rest of the brain down from acting on every possible impulse.
所以，是的，有一个过滤器可以让大脑的其他部分平静下来，避免对每一种可能的冲动采取行动。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
When I was a graduate student, I was running what are called-- You know what these are, but just to inform people, what are called acutes, which are neurophysiological experiments that last several days because at the end, you terminate the animal.
当我还是一名研究生时，我正在进行所谓的实验——你知道这些是什么，但只是为了告诉人们，所谓的急性实验，是持续几天的神经生理学实验，因为最后你会终止动物。
My apologies to those that are made uncomfortable by animal research.
我向那些因动物研究而感到不舒服的人表示歉意。
I now work on humans, so a different type of animal.
我现在研究人类，这是一种不同类型的动物。
But at the time, we were running these acutes that would start one day and maybe end two or three days later, and so you get a lot of data.
但当时，我们正在运行这些急性试验，这些急性试验将在一天开始，可能在两三天后结束，因此您会获得大量数据。
The animal's anesthetized and doesn't feel any pain the entire time of the surgery.
动物处于麻醉状态，在整个手术过程中没有感到任何疼痛。
But the one consequence of these experiments is that the experimenter, me, and another individual are awake for several days with-
但这些实验的一个结果是，实验者、我和另一个人连续几天都醒着——
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Mm
毫米
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
an hour of sleep here or an hour of sleep there, but you're basically awake for two, three days.
这里睡一个小时，那里睡一个小时，但你基本上有两三天是醒着的。
Something that really I could only do in my teens and twenties.
这确实是我只有十几岁和二十几岁时才能做到的事情。
I was in my twenties at the time.
那时我二十多岁。
And I recall going to eat at a diner after one of these experiments, and I was very hungry, and the waitress walking by with a tray full of food for another table, and it took every bit of self-control to not get up and take the food off the tray.
我记得在其中一个实验之后，我去一家小餐馆吃饭，我非常饿，女服务员端着装满食物的托盘走过另一张桌子，我需要极强的自我控制才能不站起来把食物从托盘上拿走。
Something that, of course, is totally inappropriate and I would never do.
当然，这是完全不合适的，我永远不会做。
And it must have been based on what you just said, that my forebrain was essentially going offline, or offline from the sleep deprivation.
这肯定是基于你刚才所说的，我的前脑基本上已经离线了，或者说是因为睡眠不足而离线了。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because there was a moment there where I thought I might reach up and grab a plate of food passing by simply because I wanted it.
因为有那么一刻，我想我可以伸手去抓一盘路过的食物，只是因为我想要它。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I didn't.
但我没有。
But I can relate to the experience of feeling like the shh response is flickering in and out under conditions of sleep deprivation.
但我能体会到在睡眠不足的情况下“嘘”反应时隐时现的经历。
So do we know whether or not sleep deprivation limits forebrain activity in a similar kind of way?
那么我们是否知道睡眠不足是否会以类似的方式限制前脑活动呢？
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
I don't know specifically if that effect is more pronounced in the forebrain as opposed to other brain regions.
我具体不知道这种效应在前脑中是否比其他大脑区域更明显。
But it's clear that sleep deprivation has broad effects all over the brain.
但很明显，睡眠不足对整个大脑都有广泛的影响。
People start to see visual hallucinations, so the opposite end of the brain, as you know, the visual cortex in the far back of the brain is affected.
人们开始看到幻觉，因此大脑的另一端，如您所知，大脑远端的视觉皮层受到影响。
People's motor coordination goes down after sleep deprivation.
睡眠不足后，人们的运动协调能力会下降。
So I think if you forced me to give a definitive answer on that question, I'd have to guess that the entire brain is affected by sleep deprivation, and it's not clear that one part of the brain is more affected than another.
所以我认为，如果你强迫我对这个问题给出明确的答案，我不得不猜测整个大脑都受到睡眠剥夺的影响，而且尚不清楚大脑的某个部分比另一部分受到的影响更大。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So we've been talking about damage to the brain and inferring function from damage.
所以我们一直在讨论大脑损伤并从损伤中推断功能。
Maybe we could talk a little bit about what I consider really the holy grail of the nervous system, which is neuroplasticity.
也许我们可以谈谈我认为真正的神经系统的圣杯，即神经可塑性。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This incredible capacity of the nervous system to change its wiring.
神经系统改变其线路的能力令人难以置信。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Strengthen connections, weaken connections, maybe new neurons, but probably more strengthening and weakening of connections.
加强连接，削弱连接，也许有新的神经元，但可能更多的是加强和削弱连接。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Nowadays, we hear a lot of excitement about so-called classical psychedelics like LSD and psilocybin, which do seem to, quote unquote, "open plasticity." They do a bunch of other things too, but through the release of neuromodulators like serotonin and so forth.
如今，我们听到了很多关于LSD和裸盖菇素等所谓经典迷幻药的兴奋之情，它们似乎确实是“开放可塑性”。它们还做很多其他事情，但是是通过释放血清素等神经调节剂来实现的。
How do you think about neuroplasticity, and more specifically, what do you think the potential for neuroplasticity is in the adult, so let's say older than 25-year-old brain, with or without machines being involved?
您如何看待神经可塑性？更具体地说，您认为成年人（例如 25 岁以上的大脑）的神经可塑性潜力是什么，无论是否涉及机器？
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because in your role at Neuralink and as a neurosurgeon in other clinical settings, surely you are using machines, and surely you've seen plasticity in the positive and negative direction.
因为您在 Neuralink 的角色以及其他临床环境中的神经外科医生，您肯定会使用机器，并且肯定您已经看到了积极和消极方向的可塑性。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What do you think about plasticity?
您对可塑性有何看法？
What's possible there without machines?
没有机器怎么可能？
What's possible with machines?
机器能做什么？
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
So, as you mentioned or alluded to, the plasticity definitely goes down in older brains.
因此，正如您提到或暗示的那样，年长的大脑的可塑性肯定会下降。
It is harder for older people to learn new things, to make radical changes in their behavior, to kick habits that they've had for years.
对于老年人来说，学习新事物、彻底改变自己的行为、改掉多年来的习惯都比较困难。
Machines aren't the obvious answer, so implanted electrodes and computers aren't the obvious answer to increased plasticity necessarily compared to drugs.
机器并不是显而易见的答案，因此与药物相比，植入电极和计算机也不是增加可塑性的明显答案。
We already know that there are pharmacologics, some of the ones you mentioned, psychedelics, that have a broad impact on plasticity.
我们已经知道有些药理学，你提到的一些药物，迷幻药，对可塑性有广泛的影响。
Yeah.
是的。
It's hard to know which area of the brain would be most potent as a stimulation target for an electrode to broadly juice plasticity compared to pharmacologic agents that we already know about.
与我们已知的药物相比，很难知道大脑的哪个区域作为电极的刺激目标最有效，可以广泛地增强可塑性。
I think with plasticity, in general, you're talking about the entire brain.
我认为，一般来说，可塑性指的是整个大脑。
You're talking about altering a trillion synapses all in a similar way in their tendency to be rewireable, their tendency to be up or down-weighted.
你正在谈论以类似的方式改变一万亿个突触，以改变它们的可重新连接的倾向，它们的权重增加或减少的倾向。
And an electrical stimulation target in the brain necessarily has to be focused.
大脑中的电刺激目标必须集中。
With a device like potentially Neuralink's, there might be a more broad ability to steer current to multiple targets with some degree of control, but you're never going to get that broad target ability with a Any electrodes that I can see coming in our lifetimes, say, that would be coding the entire surface and depth of the brain the way that a drug can.
有了像 Neuralink 这样的设备，可能会有更广泛的能力，以某种程度的控制将电流引导到多个目标，但你永远不会用我能在我们有生之年看到的任何电极获得这种广泛的目标能力，比如说，这将像药物一样对大脑的整个表面和深度进行编码。
And so I think plasticity research will bear the most fruit when it focuses on pharmacologic agents.
因此，我认为，当可塑性研究关注于药物制剂时，它才会取得最大的成果。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I wasn't expecting that answer, given that you're at Neuralink.
鉴于你在 Neuralink，我没想到会得到这个答案。
And then again, I think that all of us, me included, need to take a step back and realize that while we may think we know what is going on at Neuralink in terms of the specific goals and the general goals, and I certainly have in mind, I think most people have in mind a chip implanted in the brain, or maybe even the peripheral nervous system that can give people super memories or some other augmented capacity.
再说一次，我认为我们所有人，包括我在内，都需要退后一步，认识到虽然我们可能认为我们知道 Neuralink 在具体目标和总体目标方面正在发生的事情，而且我当然也有这样的想法，但我认为大多数人想到的是植入大脑的芯片，甚至是周围神经系统，它可以赋予人们超级记忆或其他增强能力。
We really don't know what you all are doing there.
我们真的不知道你们在那里做什么。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
For all we know, you guys are taking or administering psilocybin and combining that with stimulation.
据我们所知，你们正在服用或施用裸盖菇素并将其与刺激相结合。
We really don't know, and I say this with a tone of excitement because I think that one of the things that's so exciting about the different endeavors that Elon has really spearheaded, SpaceX, Tesla, et cetera, is that early on, there's a lot of mystique.
我们真的不知道，我用一种兴奋的语气说这句话，因为我认为埃隆真正带头的不同努力（SpaceX、特斯拉等）中最令人兴奋的事情之一是，在早期，有很多神秘感。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mystique is a quality that is not often talked about, but it's, I think, a very exciting time in which engineers are starting to toss up big problems and go for it, and obviously Elon is certainly among the best, if not the best, in terms of going really big.
神秘是一种不常被谈论的品质，但我认为，这是一个非常激动人心的时刻，工程师们开始提出重大问题并努力解决它，显然，就走向真正伟大而言，埃隆即使不是最好的，也肯定是最好的之一。
Mars seems pretty far to me.
火星对我来说似乎很遥远。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Electric cars are all over the road nowadays, very different than the picture a few years ago-
如今电动汽车遍布马路，与几年前的景象大不相同——
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
when you didn't see so many of them, rockets and so forth, and now the brain.
当你没有看到这么多的时候，火箭等等，现在是大脑。
So to the extent that you are allowed, could you share with us what your vision for the missions at Neuralink are and what the general scope of missions are?
那么，在允许的情况下，您能否与我们分享一下您对 Neuralink 任务的愿景以及任务的总体范围是什么？
And then, if possible, share with us some of the more specific goals.
然后，如果可能的话，与我们分享一些更具体的目标。
I can imagine basic goals-
我可以想象基本目标 -
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
of trying to understand the brain and augment the brain.
试图了解大脑并增强大脑。
I could imagine clinical goals of trying to repair things in humans that are suffering in some way, or animals for that matter.
我可以想象尝试修复遭受某种痛苦的人类或动物的临床目标。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
It's funny what you mentioned.
你提到的这件事很有趣。
Neuralink, and I think Tesla and SpaceX before it, end up being these blank canvases that people project their hopes and fears onto.
Neuralink，以及我认为之前的特斯拉和 SpaceX，最终都成为人们将希望和恐惧投射到上面的空白画布。
And so we experience a lot of upside in this.
所以我们在这方面经历了很多好处。
People assume that we have superpowers in our ability to alter the way brains work, and people have terrifying fears of the horrible things we're going to do.
人们认为我们拥有改变大脑工作方式的超能力，并且人们对我们将要做的可怕事情感到恐惧。
For the most part, those extremes are not true.
在大多数情况下，这些极端情况并不真实。
We are making a neural implant.
我们正在制造神经植入物。
We have a robotic insertion device that helps place tiny electrodes, smaller than the size of a human hair, all throughout a small region of the brain.
我们有一个机器人插入设备，可以帮助将比人类头发还小的微小电极放置在大脑的整个小区域。
In the first indication that we're aiming at, we are hoping to implant a series of these electrodes into the brains of people that have had a bad spinal cord injury.
在我们的第一个目标中，我们希望将一系列这样的电极植入脊髓严重损伤的人的大脑中。
So people that are essentially quadriplegic, they have perfect brains, but they can't use them to move their body.
所以，基本上四肢瘫痪的人，他们有完美的大脑，但他们不能用它们来移动他们的身体。
They can't move their arms or legs.
他们无法移动手臂或腿。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because of some high-level spinal cord damage.
因为一些高级脊髓损伤。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Exactly right.
完全正确。
And so this pristine motor cortex up in their brain is completely capable of operating a human body.
因此，他们大脑中的原始运动皮层完全能够操作人体。
It's just not wired properly any longer to a human's arms or legs.
它只是不再正确地连接到人类的手臂或腿上。
And so our goal is to place this implant into a motor cortex and have that person be able to then control a computer, so a mouse and a keyboard, as if they had their hands on a mouse and a keyboard, even though they aren't moving their hands.
因此，我们的目标是将这种植入物放入运动皮层中，然后让该人能够控制计算机、鼠标和键盘，就好像他们的手放在鼠标和键盘上一样，即使他们的手没有移动。
Their motor intentions are coming directly out of the brain into the device.
他们的运动意图直接从大脑进入设备。
And so they're able to regain their digital freedom, and connect with the world through the internet.
因此，他们能够重新获得数字自由，并通过互联网与世界联系。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Why use robotics to insert these chips?
为什么要使用机器人技术来插入这些芯片？
And the reason I ask that is that, sure, I can imagine that a robot could be more precise or less precise, but in theory, more precise than the human hand.
我问这个问题的原因是，当然，我可以想象机器人可能更精确或更不精确，但从理论上讲，它比人手更精确。
No tremor, for instance.
例如，没有颤抖。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
More precision in terms of maybe even a little micro-detection device on the tip of the blade or something that could detect a capillary that you would want to avoid and swerve around that-
更精确，甚至可能在刀片尖端上安装一个小型微型检测装置，或者可以检测您想要避免并绕过它的毛细管的东西 -
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Exactly
正是如此
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
the human eye couldn't detect.
人眼无法察觉。
And you and I both know, however, that no two brains, nor are the two sides of the same brain, identical.
然而，你我都知道，没有两个大脑或同一个大脑的两侧是相同的。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So navigating through the brain is perhaps best carried out by a human.
因此，大脑的导航也许最好由人类来完成。
However, and here I'm going to interrupt myself again and say, 10 years ago, face recognition was very clearly performed better by humans than machines.
然而，在这里我要再次打断自己，说，十年前，人类的人脸识别显然比机器表现得更好。
And I think now machines do it better.
我认为现在机器做得更好。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So is this the idea that eventually, or maybe even now, robots are better surgeons than humans are?
那么，这是否意味着机器人最终（或者甚至现在）会比人类成为更好的外科医生？
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
In this limited case, yes.
在这种有限的情况下，是的。
These electrodes are so tiny and the blood vessels on the surface of the brain so numerous and so densely packed that a human physically can't do this.
这些电极是如此之小，而大脑表面的血管如此之多且如此密集，以至于人类在身体上无法做到这一点。
A human hand is not steady enough to grab this couple micron width loop at the end of our electrode thread and place it accurately, blindly by the way, into the cortical surface, accurately enough at the right depth to get through all the cortical layers that we want to reach.
人手不够稳定，无法抓住电极线末端的这个几微米宽的环，并盲目地将其准确地放入皮质表面，足够准确地放置在正确的深度，以穿过我们想要到达的所有皮质层。
And I would love if human surgeons were essential to this process, but very soon, humans run out of motor skills sufficient to do this job.
如果人类外科医生对这一过程至关重要，我会很高兴，但很快，人类就会耗尽足以完成这项工作的运动技能。
And so we are required, in this case, to lean on robots to do this incredibly precise, incredibly fast, incredibly numerous placement of electrodes into the right area of the brain.
因此，在这种情况下，我们需要依靠机器人来完成这一极其精确、极其快速、极其大量的电极放置到大脑正确区域的工作。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So in some ways, Neuralink is pioneering the development of robotic surgeons as much as it's pioneering the exploration and augmentation and treatment of human brain conditions.
因此，在某些方面，Neuralink 正在引领机器人外科医生的发展，就像它引领了人类大脑疾病的探索、增强和治疗一样。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Right.
对。
And as the device exists currently, as we're submitting it to the FDA, it is only for the placement of the electrodes.
由于该设备目前已存在，并且我们正在将其提交给 FDA，因此它仅用于放置电极。
The robot is part of the surgery.
机器人是手术的一部分。
I or another neurosurgeon still needs to do the more crude part of opening the skin and skull and presenting the robot a pristine brain surface to sew electrodes into.
我或另一位神经外科医生仍然需要做更粗糙的部分，即打开皮肤和头骨，并向机器人提供原始的大脑表面以将电极缝入其中。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, surely getting quadriplegics to be able to move again, or maybe even to walk again, is a heroic goal, and one that I think everyone would agree would be wonderful to accomplish.
好吧，让四肢瘫痪的人能够再次活动，甚至重新行走，无疑是一个英雄的目标，我想每个人都会同意这个目标能够实现会很棒。
Is that the first goal because it's hard, but doable?
这是第一个目标，因为它很难，但可行吗？
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or is that the first goal because you and Elon and other folks at Neuralink have a passion for getting paralyzed people to move again?
或者这是第一个目标，因为你和 Elon 以及 Neuralink 的其他人都热衷于让瘫痪的人再次活动起来？
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Broadly speaking, the mission of Neuralink is to reduce human suffering, at least in the near term.
从广义上讲，Neuralink 的使命是减少人类痛苦，至少在短期内如此。
There's hope that eventually there's a use here that makes sense for a brain interface to bring AI as a tool embedded in the brain that a human can use to augment their capabilities.
希望大脑接口最终能发挥作用，将人工智能作为嵌入大脑的工具，人类可以用它来增强自己的能力。
I think that's pretty far down the road for us, but definitely on a desired roadmap.
我认为这对我们来说还有很长的路要走，但绝对是在理想的路线图上。
In the near term, we really are focused on people with terrible medical problems that have no options right now.
在短期内，我们真正关注的是那些患有严重医疗问题且目前没有选择的人。
With regard to motor control, our mutual friend, recently departed, Krishna Shenoy, was a giant in this field of motor prosthesis.
在运动控制方面，我们共同的朋友 Krishna Shenoy 最近离开了，他是运动假肢领域的巨人。
It just so happens that his work was foundational for a lot of people that work in this area, including us, and he was an advisor to Neuralink.
碰巧的是，他的工作对于包括我们在内的许多在该领域工作的人来说都是基础，而且他是 Neuralink 的顾问。
That work was farther along than most other work for addressing any function that lives on the surface of the brain.
这项工作比大多数其他研究大脑表面功能的工作走得更远。
The physical constraints of our approach require us currently to focus on only surface features on the brain.
我们方法的物理限制要求我们目前仅关注大脑的表面特征。
So we can't, say, go to the really very compelling depth functions that happen in the brain, like mood, appetite, addiction, pain, sleep.
因此，我们无法研究大脑中发生的真正非常引人注目的深度功能，例如情绪、食欲、成瘾、疼痛、睡眠。
We'd love to get to that place eventually, but in the immediate future, our first indication or two or three will probably be brain surface functions, like motor control.
我们很想最终到达那个地方，但在不久的将来，我们的第一个或两个或三个迹象可能是大脑表面功能，例如运动控制。
Speaker 3:
演讲者3：
There is so much NFL on ESPN right now.
ESPN 上现在有很多 NFL 节目。
"Monday Night Football," plus pre-game and post-game, "NFL Live," "NFL Prime Time," everything you need to stay on top of every game, every week.
“周一橄榄球之夜”，以及赛前和赛后、“NFL Live”、“NFL Prime Time”，以及您每周关注每场比赛所需的一切。
Unbelievable.
难以置信。
And now NFL Network is on the ESPN app.
现在 NFL Network 已登陆 ESPN 应用程序。
More football, more coverage, more ways to watch.
更多足球比赛、更多报道、更多观看方式。
Football's on all season long on ESPN and streaming on the ESPN app.
ESPN 提供整个赛季的足球赛事直播，并通过 ESPN 应用程序进行直播。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So for those listening, the outer portions of the brain are filled with, or consist of rather, neocortex, so the bumpy stuff that looks like sea coral.
因此，对于那些倾听的人来说，大脑的外部充满了新皮质，或者更确切地说，由新皮质组成，所以凹凸不平的东西看起来像海珊瑚。
Some forms of sea coral look like brains, or brains look like them.
某些形式的海珊瑚看起来像大脑，或者大脑看起来像它们。
And then underneath reside a lot of the brain structures that control what Matt just referred to, things controlling mood, hormone output, how awake or asleep the brain is.
下面存在着许多控制马特刚才提到的大脑结构，控制情绪、激素分泌、大脑清醒或睡眠的程度。
And would you agree that those deeper regions of the brain have, in some ways, more predictable functions?
您是否同意大脑的深层区域在某些方面具有更可预测的功能？
I mean, that lesions there or stimulation there lead to more predictable outcomes in terms of deficits or improvements in function?
我的意思是，那里的病变或刺激会导致在功能缺陷或改善方面更可预测的结果吗？
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Yeah, in some way, yes.
是的，在某种程度上，是的。
The deeper parts of the brain tend to be more stereotyped, as in more similar between species than the outer surface of the brain.
大脑的深层部分往往更加刻板，因为物种之间比大脑的外表面更相似。
They're kind of the firmware or the housekeeping functions to some degree, body temperature, blood pressure, sex motivation, hunger, things that you don't really need to vary dramatically between a fox and a human being.
它们在某种程度上是一种固件或内务管理功能，体温、血压、性动机、饥饿，这些东西在狐狸和人类之间并不需要有很大的差异。
Whereas the outer, more reasoning functions, problem-solving functions between a fox and a human are vastly different, and so the physical requirements of those brain outputs are different.
而狐狸和人类的外部推理功能、解决问题的功能有很大不同，因此这些大脑输出的物理要求也不同。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think I heard Elon describe it as the human brain is essentially a monkey brain with a supercomputer placed on the outside, which sparks some interesting ideas about what neocortex is doing.
我想我听到埃隆将其描述为人类大脑本质上是一个猴子大脑，外面放置了一台超级计算机，这引发了一些关于新皮质正在做什么的有趣想法。
We have all this brain real estate on top of all that more stereotyped function type stuff in the deeper brain, and it's still unclear what neocortex is doing.
我们在大脑深处拥有所有这些更刻板的功能类型的东西，但我们仍然不清楚新皮质在做什么。
In the case of frontal cortex, as you mentioned earlier, it's clear that it's providing some shh quieting of impulses, some context setting, rule setting, context switching.
就额叶皮层而言，正如您之前提到的，很明显它提供了一些冲动的“嘘”安静、一些上下文设置、规则设置、上下文切换。
All of that makes good sense.
所有这些都是有道理的。
But then there are a lot of cortical areas that sure, are involved in vision or touch or hearing, but then there's also a lot of real estate that just feels unexplored.
但确实有很多皮质区域与视觉、触觉或听觉有关，但也有很多区域感觉尚未被探索。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So I'm curious whether or not in your clinical work or work with Neuralink or both, whether or not you have ever encountered neurons that do something that's really peculiar and intriguing.
所以我很好奇，无论您在临床工作中还是在与 Neuralink 合作中，或者两者兼而有之，您是否曾经遇到过做一些非常奇特和有趣的事情的神经元。
And here I'm referring to examples that could be anywhere in the brain.
在这里我指的是可能存在于大脑任何地方的例子。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Like where you go, "Wow, these neurons, when I stimulate them or when they're taken away, lead to something kind of bizarre but interesting."
就像你去的地方，“哇，这些神经元，当我刺激它们或当它们被拿走时，会导致某种奇怪但有趣的东西。”
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
The one that comes immediately to mind is unfortunately in a terrible case in kids that have a tumor in the hypothalamus that lead to what we call gelastic seizures, which is sort of an uncontrollable fit of laughter.
不幸的是，我立即想到的一个可怕的案例是，孩子们的下丘脑长了肿瘤，导致了我们所说的痉挛性癫痫发作，这是一种无法控制的笑声。
There's been cases in the literature where this laughter is so uncontrollable and so pervasive that people suffocate from failing to breathe, or they laugh until they pass out.
文献中曾有过这种笑声无法控制且普遍存在的案例，以至于人们因无法呼吸而窒息，或者笑到昏倒。
And so, you don't normally think of a deep structure in the brain like the hypothalamus as being involved in a function like humor, and certainly when we think about this kind of laughter in these kids with tumors, it's mirthless laughter is the kind of textbook phrase, humorless laughter.
因此，你通常不会认为像下丘脑这样的大脑深层结构与幽默这样的功能有关，当然，当我们想到这些患有肿瘤的孩子的这种笑声时，这种笑声是教科书上的短语，毫无幽默感的笑声。
It's just a reflexive, almost zombie-like behavior.
这只是一种条件反射，几乎像僵尸一样的行为。
And it comes from a very small population of neurons deep in the brain.
它来自大脑深处的一小部分神经元。
This is one of the other sort of strange loss of functions you might say is it's nice that you and I can sit here and not have constant disruptive fits of laughter coming out of our bodies.
这是另一种奇怪的功能丧失之一，你可能会说，很高兴你和我可以坐在这里，而不会从我们的身体里不断发出破坏性的笑声。
But that's a neuronal function.
但这是一种神经元功能。
That's, thank goodness, due to neurons properly wired and properly functioning.
谢天谢地，这是因为神经元连接正确并且功能正常。
And any neurons that do anything like this can be broken, and so we see this in horrifying cases like that from time to time.
任何做类似事情的神经元都可能被破坏，所以我们时不时会在类似的可怕案例中看到这种情况。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So I'm starting to sense that there are two broad bins of approaches to augmenting the brain, either to treat disease or for sake of increasing memory, creating super brains, et cetera.
所以我开始意识到增强大脑的方法有两大类，要么是为了治疗疾病，要么是为了增加记忆力、创造超级大脑等等。
One category you alluded to earlier, which is pharmacology.
您之前提到的一类是药理学。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And you specifically mentioned the tremendous power that pharmacology holds.
您特别提到了药理学所具有的巨大力量。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Whether or not it's through psychedelics or through prescription drug or who knows, some other compound.
无论是通过致幻剂、处方药还是其他化合物。
The other approach are these little microelectrodes that are extremely strategically placed-
另一种方法是这些小微电极，它们的放置非常有策略性——
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
into multiple regions in order to play, essentially, a concert of electricity that is exactly right to get a quadriplegic moving.
进入多个区域，本质上是为了演奏一场电力音乐会，这完全适合让四肢瘫痪的人移动。
That sparks two questions.
这引发了两个问题。
First of all, is there a role for and is Neuralink interested in combining pharmacology with stimulation?
首先，Neuralink 是否有兴趣将药理学与刺激相结合？
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
So not immediately.
所以不是立即。
Right now, we're solely focused on the extremely hard, some might say the hardest problem facing humans right now of decoding the brain through electrical stimulation and recording.
目前，我们只关注通过电刺激和记录来解码大脑的极其困难的问题，有些人可能会说这是人类目前面临的最困难的问题。
That's enough for us for now.
现在对我们来说就足够了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So, to just give us a bit fuller picture of this, we're talking about a patient who can't move their limbs because they have spinal cord damage.
因此，为了让我们更全面地了解这一点，我们讨论的是一名因脊髓损伤而无法移动四肢的患者。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The motor cortex that controls movement is, in theory, fine.
从理论上讲，控制运动的运动皮层是没有问题的。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You make a small hole in the skull, and through that hole a robot is going to place electrodes, obviously in motor cortex, but then where, how?
你在头骨上打一个小孔，机器人将通过这个孔放置电极，显然是在运动皮层中，但是在哪里，如何放置？
Is the idea that you're going to play a concert from different locations?
你的想法是要在不同的地点举办一场音乐会吗？
You're going to hit all the keys on the piano in different combinations and then figure out what can move the limbs?
你要用不同的组合敲击钢琴上的所有琴键，然后找出什么可以移动四肢？
What I'm alluding to here is I still don't understand how the signals are going to get out of motor cortex, past the lesion, and out to the limbs because the lesion hasn't been dealt with at all in this scenario.
我在这里提到的是，我仍然不明白信号如何离开运动皮层，经过病变部位，并到达四肢，因为在这种情况下病变根本没有得到处理。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
So just to clarify there, I should emphasize we're not in the immediate future talking about reconnecting the brain to the patient's own limbs.
因此，为了澄清这一点，我应该强调，我们不会在不久的将来谈论将大脑与患者自己的四肢重新连接。
That's on the roadmap, but it's way down the roadmap a few years.
这是在路线图上的，但它已经落后了几年。
What we're talking about in the immediate future is having the person be able to control electronic devices around them with their motor intentions alone, right?
我们在不久的将来谈论的是让人们能够仅凭他们的运动意图来控制周围的电子设备，对吗？
So-
所以——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Prosthetic hand and arm, or just mouse and keys on a-
假手和假臂，或者只是鼠标和键盘——
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Mouse and keys on a keyboard for starters.
初学者使用键盘上的鼠标和按键。
So you wouldn't see anything in the world move.
所以你不会看到世界上有任何东西在移动。
As they have an intention, the patient might imagine, say, flexing their fist or moving their wrist, and what would happen on the screen is the mouse would move down and left and click on an icon and bring up their word processor, and then a keyboard at the bottom of the screen would allow them to select letters in sequence, and they could type.
当他们有意图时，患者可能会想象，比如说，弯曲他们的拳头或移动他们的手腕，屏幕上会发生的事情是鼠标会向下和向左移动并单击一个图标并调出他们的文字处理器，然后屏幕底部的键盘将允许他们按顺序选择字母，然后他们可以打字。
This is the easy place to start.
这是很容易开始的地方。
Easy in quotes.
很容易用引号括起来。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I would say because the transformation of electrical signals from motor cortex through the brainstem, into the spinal cord, and out to the muscles is somewhat known-
我之所以这么说，是因为电信号从运动皮层通过脑干进入脊髓，再到肌肉的转换是众所周知的——
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
through 100 years or more of incredible laboratory research.
经过 100 多年令人难以置信的实验室研究。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But the transformation, meaning how to take the electrical signals out of motor cortex and put it into a mouse or a robot arm, that's not a trivial problem.
但这种转变，即如何从运动皮层取出电信号并将其放入老鼠或机器人手臂中，这并不是一个小问题。
I mean that-
我的意思是——
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that's a whole other set of problems, in fact.
事实上，这是另外一系列问题。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Well, we're unloading some of that difficulty from the brain itself, from the brain of the patient, and putting some of that into software.
好吧，我们正在从大脑本身、从患者的大脑中卸载一些困难，并将其中一些放入软件中。
So we're using smarter algorithms to decode the motor intentions out of the brain.
因此，我们正在使用更智能的算法来解码大脑中的运动意图。
We have been able to do this in monkeys really well, so we have a small army of monkeys playing video games for smoothie rewards.
我们已经能够在猴子身上很好地做到这一点，所以我们有一小群猴子玩电子游戏以获得冰沙奖励。
And they do really well.
他们做得非常好。
We actually have the world record of bitrate of information coming out of a monkey's brain to intelligently control a cursor on a screen.
事实上，我们拥有猴子大脑发出的信息比特率的世界纪录，可以智能地控制屏幕上的光标。
We're doing that better than anyone else.
我们在这方面比其他任何人都做得更好。
And Again, thanks in no small part due to Krishna Shenoy and his lab and the people that have worked for him that have been helping Neuralink.
再次感谢 Krishna Shenoy 和他的实验室以及为他工作、一直在帮助 Neuralink 的人们。
But what you can't do with that monkey is ask him what he's thinking.
但你不能对那只猴子做的就是问他在想什么。
You can't ask him-
你不能问他——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, you can ask him, but you won't get a very interesting answer.
好吧，你可以问他，但你不会得到一个非常有趣的答案。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
You can't tell him to try something different.
你不能告诉他尝试不同的东西。
You can't tell him to, "Hey, try the shoulder on this.
你不能告诉他，“嘿，试试这个肩膀。
Try the other hand and see if there's some cross-body neuronal firing that gives you a useful signal." Once we get to people, we expect to see what they've seen when they've done similar work in academic labs, which is the human can work with you to vastly accelerate this process and get much more interesting results.
试试另一只手，看看是否有一些跨身体的神经元放电可以给你一个有用的信号。”一旦我们接触到人们，我们希望看到他们在学术实验室中完成类似工作时所看到的情况，即人类可以与您合作，大大加速这一过程并获得更有趣的结果。
So one of the things out of Stanford recently is there was a lab that with Krishna and Jamie Henderson and other people decode speech out of the hand movement area in the brain.
斯坦福大学最近的一件事是，有一个实验室与克里希纳和杰米·亨德森以及其他人一起从大脑的手部运动区域解码语音。
So, what we know is that there are multitudes of useful signals in each area of the brain that we've looked at so far.
因此，我们所知道的是，迄今为止我们所观察到的大脑每个区域都存在大量有用的信号。
They just tend to be highly expressed for, say, hand movement in the hand area, but that doesn't mean only hand movement in the hand area.
它们只是倾向于高度表达，例如，手部区域的手部运动，但这并不意味着仅手部区域的手部运动。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay, so here's the confidence test.
好的，这是信心测试。
There's a long history dating back really prior to the 1950s of scientists doing experiments on themselves.
科学家对自己进行实验的历史可以追溯到 20 世纪 50 年代之前。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Not because they are reckless, but because they want the exact sorts of information that you're talking about.
不是因为他们鲁莽，而是因为他们想要你正在谈论的那种信息。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The ability to really understand how intention and awareness of goals can shape outcomes in biology.
真正理解目标的意图和意识如何塑造生物学结果的能力。
If that is vague to people listening, what I mean here is that for many, probably hundreds of years, if not longer, scientists have taken the drugs they've studied or stimulated their own brain or done things to really try and get a sense of what the animals they work on or the patients they work on might be experiencing.
如果这对听的人来说很模糊，我在这里的意思是，在很多年，可能是数百年，甚至更长的时间里，科学家们一直在服用他们研究过的药物或刺激自己的大脑或做一些事情来真正尝试并了解他们所研究的动物或他们所研究的患者可能正在经历的事情。
Psychiatrists are sort of famous for this, by the way.
顺便说一句，精神科医生因此而闻名。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm not pointing fingers at anybody, but psychiatrists are known to try the drugs that they administer.
我并不是在指责任何人，但众所周知，精神科医生会尝试他们所使用的药物。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And some people would probably imagine that's a good thing, just so that the clinicians could have empathy for the sorts of side effects and not so great effects of some of these drugs that they administer to patients.
有些人可能会认为这是一件好事，这样临床医生就可以对他们给患者服用的某些药物的各种副作用和不太大的影响产生同情心。
But the confidence test I present you is, would you be willing or are you willing, if allowed, to have these electrodes implanted into your motor cortex?
但我向您展示的信心测试是，您是否愿意或者如果允许的话您愿意将这些电极植入您的运动皮层吗？
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You're not a quadriplegic.
你不是四肢瘫痪的人。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You can move your limbs.
你可以活动你的四肢。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But given the state of the technology at Neuralink now, would you do that?
但考虑到 Neuralink 目前的技术状况，你会这样做吗？
Or maybe in the next couple of years, if you were allowed, would you be willing to do that?
或者也许在接下来的几年里，如果允许的话，你愿意这样做吗？
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Yeah, absolutely.
是的，绝对是。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And be the person to say, "Hey, turn up the stimulation over there.
成为那个说：“嘿，把那边的刺激调大一点。
I feel like I want to reach for the cup-
我感觉我想伸手去拿杯子——
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
with that robotic arm, but I'm feeling kind of some resistance." Because it's exactly that kind of experiment done on a person who can move their limbs and who deeply understands the technology and the goals of the experiment that I would argue actually stands to advance the technology fastest.
有了那个机械臂，但我感觉到了一些阻力。”因为正是在一个可以移动四肢并且深刻理解技术和实验目标的人身上进行的这种实验，我认为实际上可以最快地推动技术进步。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
As opposed to putting the electrodes first into somebody who is impaired at a number of levels and then trying to think about why things aren't working.
与首先将电极放入多个程度受损的人身上然后尝试思考为什么事情不起作用相反。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
And again, this is all with the goal of reversing paralysis in mind, but would you implant yourself with these microelectrodes?
再说一次，这一切都是为了扭转瘫痪的目标，但你会在自己身上植入这些微电极吗？
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Yeah, absolutely.
是的，绝对是。
I would be excited to do that.
我会很高兴这样做。
I think for the first iteration of the device, it probably wouldn't be very meaningful.
我认为对于该设备的第一次迭代来说，它可能没有多大意义。
It wouldn't be very useful because I can still move my limbs, and our first outputs from this are things that I can do just as easily with my hands, right?
它不会很有用，因为我仍然可以移动我的四肢，而我们的第一个输出是我可以用手轻松完成的事情，对吗？
Moving a mouse, typing on a keyboard.
移动鼠标，敲击键盘。
We are necessarily making this device as a medical device for starters, for people with bad medical problems and no good options.
我们有必要将该设备作为一种医疗设备，供初学者使用，供患有严重健康问题且没有好的选择的人使用。
It wouldn't really make sense for an able-bodied person to get one in the near term.
对于一个身体健全的人来说，在短期内获得一个确实没有意义。
As the technology develops and we make devices specifically designed to perform functions that can't be done even by an able-bodied person, say, eventually refine the technique to get to the point where you can type faster with your mind and one of these devices than you can with text-to-speech or speech-to-text and your fingers, that's a use case that makes sense for someone like me to get it.
随着技术的发展，我们制造了专门设计的设备来执行即使是健全的人也无法完成的功能，例如，最终完善技术，使您可以用头脑和这些设备之一比文本到语音或语音到文本和手指更快地打字，这是一个对于像我这样的人来说有意义的用例。
It doesn't really make sense for me to get one when it allows me to use a mouse slightly worse than I can with my hand currently.
当我使用鼠标的能力比我目前用手使用的鼠标稍差时，买一个鼠标对我来说真的没有意义。
That said, the safety of the device I would absolutely vouch for from the hundreds of surgeries that I've personally done with this.
也就是说，我绝对可以从我亲自做过的数百次手术中保证该设备的安全性。
I think it's much safer than many of the industry-standard, FDA-approved surgeries that I routinely do on patients that no one even thinks twice about their standard of care.
我认为这比我经常对患者进行的许多符合行业标准、FDA 批准的手术要安全得多，没有人会对他们的护理标准三思而后行。
Neuralink has already reached, in my mind, a safety threshold that is far beyond a commonly accepted safety threshold.
在我看来，Neuralink 已经达到了一个安全阈值，远远超出了普遍接受的安全阈值。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Along the lines of augmenting one's biological function or functions in the world, I think now's the appropriate time to talk about the small lump present in the top of your hand.
沿着增强一个人的生物功能或在世界上的功能的思路，我认为现在是谈论你手顶上存在的小肿块的合适时机。
For those listening not watching, it looks like a small lump between Dr. McDougall's forefinger and thumb, or index finger and thumb, placed on skin on the top of his hand.
对于那些只听而不看的人来说，它看起来就像麦克杜格尔博士的食指和拇指或食指和拇指之间的一个小肿块，放在他手顶的皮肤上。
You've had this for some years now because we've known each other for, gosh, probably seven years now or so.
这种情况你已经有好几年了，因为我们已经认识了，天哪，可能已经七年左右了。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And you've always had it in the time that I've known you.
从我认识你的时候起，你就一直拥有这种感觉。
What is that lump and why did you put it in there?
那个肿块是什么？你为什么把它放在那里？
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So it's a small writable RFID tag.
所以它是一个小型可写RFID标签。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What's an RFID?
什么是射频识别？
What does RFID stand for?
RFID代表什么？
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Yeah, radio frequency identification.
是的，射频识别。
And so it's just a very small implantable chip that Wireless devices can temporarily power if you approach an antenna.
因此，它只是一个非常小的植入式芯片，如果您接近天线，无线设备可以暂时为其供电。
They can power and send a small amount of data back and forth.
它们可以供电并来回发送少量数据。
So most phones have the capability of reading and writing to this chip.
所以大多数手机都具备读写该芯片的能力。
For years, it let me into my house.
多年来，它让我进入我的房子。
It unlocked a deadbolt on my front door.
它打开了我前门上的门锁。
For some years, it unlocked the doors at Neuralink and let me through the various locked doors inside the building.
多年来，它一直打开 Neuralink 的门，让我穿过大楼内各个上锁的门。
It is writable.
它是可写的。
I can write a small amount of data to it, and so for some years in the early days of crypto, I had a crypto private key written on it to store a cryptocurrency that I thought was a dead offshoot of one of the main cryptocurrencies after it had forked.
我可以向其中写入少量数据，因此在加密货币早期的几年里，我在上面写了一个加密私钥来存储一种加密货币，我认为这种加密货币是主要加密货币之一分叉后的死分支。
And so I put the private wallet key on there and forgot about it, and remembered a few years later that it was there and went and checked, and it was worth a few thousand dollars more than when I had left it on there.
于是我把私人钱包钥匙放在那里，然后就忘了它，几年后我想起它就在那里，就去检查了，它比我放在那里时值了几千美元。
So that was a nice finding change in the sofa in the 21st century.
所以这是 21 世纪沙发的一个很好的发现。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then when you say you read it, you're essentially taking a phone or other device and scanning it over the-
然后，当你说你读了它时，你实际上是在拿起手机或其他设备并通过-
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
the lump in your hand-
你手上的肿块-
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
so to speak.
可以这么说。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then it can read the data from there-
然后它可以从那里读取数据 -
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
essentially.
本质上。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What other sorts of things could one put into these RFIDs in theory, and how long can they stay in there before you need to take them out and-
理论上，人们还可以在这些 RFID 中放入哪些其他类型的东西，以及在您需要将它们取出之前它们可以在那里停留多长时间，然后-
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and recharge them or replace them?
并为其充电或更换？
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Well, these are passive.
嗯，这些都是被动的。
They're coated in biocompatible glass, and as an extra...
它们涂有生物相容性玻璃，作为额外的...
I'm a rock climber, and so I was worried about that glass shattering during rock climbing.
我是一名攀岩运动员，所以我很担心攀岩时玻璃会碎裂。
I additionally coated them in another ring of silicone before implanting that.
在植入之前，我还给它们涂上了另一圈硅胶。
So it's pretty safe.
所以这是相当安全的。
They're passive.
他们是被动的。
There's no battery.
没有电池。
There's no active electronics in them.
它们里面没有有源电子设备。
So they could last the rest of my life.
所以它们可以陪伴我的余生。
I don't think I'd ever have to remove it for any reason.
我认为我不必以任何理由删除它。
At some point, the technology's always improving, so I might remove it and upgrade it.
在某些时候，技术总是在进步，所以我可能会删除它并升级它。
That's not inconceivable.
这并非不可想象。
Already there's 10 X more storage versions available that could be a drop-in replacement for this if I ever remove it.
已经有 10 倍以上的存储版本可用，如果我删除它，它们可以直接替代它。
But it has a small niche use case, and it's an interesting proof of concept tiptoeing towards the concept that you mentioned of you have to be willing to go through the things that you're suggesting to your patients in order to say with a straight face that you think this is a reasonable thing to do.
但它有一个小的利基用例，这是一个有趣的概念证明，小心翼翼地走向你提到的概念，你必须愿意经历你向病人建议的事情，才能板着脸说你认为这是一件合理的事情。
So a small subcutaneous implant in the hand is a little different than a brain implant, but-
因此，手上的小型皮下植入物与大脑植入物略有不同，但是-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
What's involved in getting that RFID chip into the hand?
将 RFID 芯片拿到手中涉及什么？
I'm assuming it's an outpatient procedure.
我假设这是门诊手术。
Presumably, you did it on yourself.
估计是你自己做的吧。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
This was a kitchen table kind of procedure.
这是厨房餐桌上的程序。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Any anesthetic, or no?
打麻药，还是不打麻药？
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
I've seen people do this with a lidocaine injection.
我见过有人通过注射利多卡因来做到这一点。
For my money, I think a lidocaine injection is probably as painful as just doing the procedure.
就我的钱而言，我认为注射利多卡因可能和做手术一样痛苦。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Just a little cut in that thin skin on the top of the hand.
只是在手上薄薄的皮肤上划了一点点。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Some people are cringing right now.
有些人现在正在畏缩。
Other people are saying- ...
其他人则说——...
"I want one," because you'll never have to ever worry about losing your keys.
“我想要一把”，因为您永远不必担心丢失钥匙。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or passwords.
或者密码。
I actually would like it-
其实我很想要——
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
for passwords because I'm dreadfully bad at remembering passwords, so I have to put them in places all over the place, and then it's like I'm like that kid in...
对于密码，因为我非常不擅长记住密码，所以我必须把它们放在各处，然后就像我就像那个孩子一样......
Remember that movie, "Stand by Me," where-
还记得那部电影《伴我同行》吗——
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
the kid hides the pennies under the porch and-
那孩子把硬币藏在门廊下然后——
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
then loses the map?
然后失去地图？
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Spends all summer trying to find them.
整个夏天都在努力寻找它们。
So I can relate.
所以我可以理解。
Yeah, so it was just a little slit and then put in there.
是的，所以它只是一个小缝，然后放进去。
No-
不-
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
local immune response.
局部免疫反应。
No-
不-
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
No
否
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
pus, no swelling.
有脓，无肿胀。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
All the materials are completely biocompatible that are on the surface exposed to the body, so no bad reaction.
所有材料均完全生物相容，表面暴露于人体，因此不会产生不良反应。
It healed up in days, and it was fine.
几天就痊愈了，一切都很好。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Very cool.
非常酷。
Since we're on video here, maybe can you just maybe-
既然我们在这里播放视频，也许你可以-
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Sure
当然可以
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
raise it and show us?
举起它并向我们展示？
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, so were you not to point out that little lump, I wouldn't have known to ask about it.
是啊，如果你不指出那个小肿块，我就不会知道要问它。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And any other members of your family have these?
您家里的其他成员也有这些吗？
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
A few years after having this and seeing the convenience of me being able to open the door without keys, my wife insisted that I put one in her as well.
几年后，我的妻子看到我不用钥匙就能开门的便利，坚持让我也给她放一把。
So she's walking around with one.
所以她带着一个人四处走动。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Fantastic.
太棒了。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
We consider them our version of wedding rings.
我们将它们视为我们版本的结婚戒指。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Love it.
喜欢它。
Well, it's certainly more permanent than wedding rings in some sense.
嗯，从某种意义上来说，它肯定比结婚戒指更永久。
I can't help but ask this question, even though it might seem a little bit off-topic.
我忍不住要问这个问题，尽管它看起来有点偏离主题。
As long as we're talking about implantable devices and Bluetooth and RFID chips in the body, I get asked a lot about the safety or lack thereof of Bluetooth headphones.
只要我们谈论体内的植入式设备以及蓝牙和 RFID 芯片，我就会被问到很多关于蓝牙耳机的安全性或缺乏安全性的问题。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You work on the brain.
你在大脑上工作。
You're a brain surgeon.
你是一名脑外科医生。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's valuable real estate in there.
那里有宝贵的房地产。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And you understand about electromagnetic fields and-
你了解电磁场并且-
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Sure
当然可以
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
any discussion about EMFs immediately puts us in the category of, uh-oh, like- ...
任何有关 EMF 的讨论都会立即将我们归入以下类别：呃-哦，就像-...
get their tinfoil hats, and yet I've been researching EMFs for a future episode of the podcast.
得到他们的锡箔帽子，但我一直在为播客的未来一集研究电磁场。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And EMFs are a real thing.
电磁场是真实存在的。
That's not a valuable statement.
这不是一个有价值的声明。
Everything's a real thing at some level, even an idea.
在某种程度上，一切都是真实的，甚至是一个想法。
But there does seem to be some evidence that electromagnetic fields of sufficient strength can alter the function of, maybe the health of, but the function of neural tissue, given that neural tissue is electrically signaling among itself.
但似乎确实有一些证据表明，足够强度的电磁场可以改变神经组织的功能，也许是健康，但也可以改变神经组织的功能，因为神经组织之间存在电信号传导。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So, I'll just ask this in a very straightforward way.
所以，我会以非常直接的方式问这个问题。
Do you use Bluetooth headphones or wired headphones?
您使用蓝牙耳机还是有线耳机？
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Sure.
当然。
Yeah.
是的。
Bluetooth.
蓝牙。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And you're not worried about any kind of EMF fields across the skull?
你不担心头骨上有任何类型的电磁场吗？
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
No, I think the energy levels involved are so tiny that, ionizing radiation aside, we're way out of the realm of ionizing radiation that people would worry about tumor-causing EMF fields.
不，我认为所涉及的能量水平是如此之小，除了电离辐射之外，我们已经远远超出了电离辐射的范围，人们会担心引起肿瘤的电磁场。
Even just the electromagnetic field itself, as is very well described in a Bluetooth Frequency range, the power levels are tiny in these devices.
即使只是电磁场本身（正如蓝牙频率范围中所描述的那样），这些设备中的功率水平也很小。
And so we are awash in these signals, whether you use Bluetooth headphones or not.
因此，无论您是否使用蓝牙耳机，我们都会被这些信号淹没。
For that matter, you're getting bombarded with ionizing radiation in a very tiny amount no matter where you live on Earth, unless you live under huge amounts of water.
就这一点而言，无论你住在地球上的哪个地方，你都会受到极少量的电离辐射轰击，除非你生活在大量的水下。
It's unavoidable.
这是不可避免的。
And so I think you just have to trust that your body has the DNA repair mechanisms that it needs to deal with the constant bath of ionizing radiation that you're in as a result of being in the universe and exposed to cosmic rays.
所以我认为你只需要相信你的身体有 DNA 修复机制，它需要这些机制来处理你由于处于宇宙中并暴露于宇宙射线而处于的持续的电离辐射浴中。
In terms of electromagnetic fields, the energy levels are way out of the range where I would be worried about this.
就电磁场而言，能级远远超出了我担心的范围。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What about heat?
热度怎么样？
I don't use the earbuds any longer for a couple of reasons.
由于几个原因，我不再使用耳塞。
Once, as you know, I take a lot of supplements, and I reached into my left pocket once and swallowed a handful of supplements that included a- ...
有一次，如你所知，我服用了很多补充剂，有一次我把手伸进左口袋，吞下了一把补充剂，其中包括——……
a Bluetooth, a AirPod Pro.
一个蓝牙，一个AirPod Pro。
I knew it.
我就知道。
I swallowed it.
我把它吞下去了。
The moment after I gulped it down-- By the way, folks, please don't do this.
在我咽下它的那一刻——顺便说一句，各位，请不要这样做。
It was not a good idea.
这不是一个好主意。
It wasn't an idea, it was a mistake.
这不是一个想法，而是一个错误。
But I could see it on my phone as registering there.
但我可以在手机上看到它在那里注册。
Never saw it again, so I'm assuming it's no longer in my body.
我再也没有见过它，所以我假设它已经不在我的身体里了。
But anyway, there's a bad joke there to be sure.
但无论如何，这肯定是一个糟糕的笑话。
But in any event, I tend to lose them or misplace them, so that's the main reason.
但无论如何，我很容易丢失它们或放错地方，所以这是主要原因。
But I did notice when I used them that there's some heat generated there.
但我确实注意到，当我使用它们时，那里会产生一些热量。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I also am not convinced that plugging your ears all day long is...
我也不相信整天堵着耳朵是……
There's some ventilation through the sinus systems that include-
通过鼻窦系统进行一些通风，包括-
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Sure
当然可以
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
the ears.
耳朵。
So it sounds to me like you're not concerned about the use of earbuds.
所以在我看来你并不关心耳机的使用。
But what about heat near the brain?
但是大脑附近的热量又如何呢？
The cochlea, the auditory mechanisms that sit pretty close to the surface there.
耳蜗是非常靠近表面的听觉机制。
Heat and neural tissue are not friends.
热和神经组织不是朋友。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd much rather get my brain cold than hot-
我宁愿让我的大脑变冷，也不愿让我的大脑变热——
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in terms of keeping the cells healthy and alive.
在保持细胞健康和活力方面。
Should we be thinking about the heat effects of some of these devices or other things?
我们是否应该考虑其中一些设备或其他事物的热效应？
Is there anything we're overlooking?
有什么是我们忽略的吗？
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Well, think about it this way.
嗯，这样想吧。
I use cars as an analogy a lot and mostly internal combustion engine cars, so these analogies are going to start to be foreign and useless for another generation of people that grow up in the era of electric cars.
我经常用汽车作为类比，而且大多是内燃机汽车，所以这些类比对于在电动汽车时代长大的另一代人来说将开始变得陌生和无用。
But using cars as a platform to talk about fluid cooling systems, your body has a massive distributed fluid cooling system similar to a car's radiator.
但以汽车为平台来讨论流体冷却系统，您的身体有一个类似于汽车散热器的大型分布式流体冷却系统。
You're pumping blood all around your body all the time at a very strictly controlled temperature.
您始终在严格控制的温度下将血液泵送到全身各处。
That blood carries, it's mostly water, so it carries a huge amount of the heat or cold away from any area of the body that's focused heating or focused cooling.
血液携带的大部分是水，因此它会将大量的热量或寒冷从身体集中加热或集中冷却的任何区域带走。
So you could put an ice cube on your skin until it completely melts away, and the blood is going to bring heat back to that area.
所以你可以把一块冰块放在你的皮肤上，直到它完全融化，血液会将热量带回该区域。
You can stand in the sun under much more scary heating rays from the sun itself that contain UV radiation that's definitely damaging your DNA.
您可以站在太阳下，承受来自太阳本身的更可怕的热射线，其中含有肯定会损害您 DNA 的紫外线辐射。
If you're looking for things to be afraid of, the sun is a good one.
如果你正在寻找令人害怕的事物，那么阳光就是一个不错的选择。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Now you're talking to the guy that tells everybody to get sunlight in their eyes every morning.
现在你正在和一个告诉每个人每天早上让阳光照射眼睛的人交谈。
But I don't want people to get burned or give themselves skin cancer.
但我不希望人们被烧伤或患上皮肤癌。
I encourage people to protect their skin accordingly, and different individuals require different levels of protection from the sun.
我鼓励人们相应地保护自己的皮肤，不同的人需要不同程度的防晒保护。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Some people do very well in a lot of sunshine, never get basal cell or anything like that.
有些人在充足的阳光下表现得很好，从来没有获得基底细胞或类似的东西。
Some people, and it's not just people with very fair skin, a minimum of sun exposure can cause some issues.
有些人，不仅仅是皮肤非常白皙的人，最少的阳光照射也会导致一些问题。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And here I'm talking about sun exposure to the skin.
在这里我谈论的是皮肤的阳光照射。
Of course, staring at the sun is a bad idea.
当然，盯着太阳看是个坏主意。
I never recommend people do that.
我从不建议人们这样做。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
But thinking about the sun just as a heater-
但想想太阳就像一个加热器——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
...
...
for a moment to compare it with Bluetooth headphones, your body's very capable of carrying that heat away and dissipating it via sweat evaporation or temperature equalization.
将其与蓝牙耳机进行比较，您的身体非常有能力带走热量并通过汗水蒸发或温度均衡来消散。
So any heat that's locally generated in the ear, one, there's a pretty large bony barrier there, but two, there's a ton of blood flow in the scalp and in the head in general and definitely in the brain that's going to regulate that temperature.
因此，耳朵局部产生的任何热量，一是那里有一个相当大的骨屏障，但二是头皮和头部中有大量的血流，而且大脑中肯定有大量的血流来调节温度。
So I think certainly there can be a tiny temperature variation, but I doubt very seriously that it's enough to cause a significant problem.
因此，我认为当然可能存在微小的温度变化，但我非常怀疑这是否足以导致严重问题。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd like to go back to brain augmentation.
我想回到大脑增强。
You've made very clear that one of the first goals for Neuralink is to get quadriplegics walking again.
您已经明确表示，Neuralink 的首要目标之一是让四肢瘫痪的人重新行走。
And again, what a marvelous goal that is, and I certainly hope you guys succeed.
再说一次，这是一个多么了不起的目标，我当然希望你们能够成功。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Well, again, just to be very clear, the first step is we aren't reconnecting the patient's own muscle system-
好吧，再次强调一下，第一步是我们不会重新连接患者自己的肌肉系统 -
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right
右
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
...
...
to their motor cortex.
到他们的运动皮层。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Allowing them, excuse me, agency over the movement of things in the world.
对不起，允许他们代理世界上事物的运动。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And eventually their body.
最终是他们的身体。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
And you're exactly right.
你是完全正确的。
Yeah, eventually their body.
是的，最终是他们的身体。
We would love to do that, and we've done a lot of work on developing a system for stimulating the spinal cord itself.
我们很乐意这样做，并且我们已经在开发刺激脊髓本身的系统方面做了很多工作。
And so that gets to the question that you asked a few minutes ago of how do you reconnect a motor cortex to the rest of the body?
这就涉及到您几分钟前提出的问题：如何将运动皮层重新连接到身体的其他部分？
Well, if you can bypass the damaged area of the spinal cord and have an implant in the spinal cord itself connected to an implant in the brain and have them talking to each other, you can take the perfectly intact motor signals out of the motor cortex and send them to the spinal cord, which most of the wiring should be intact in the spinal cord below the level of, say, the injury caused by a car accident or motorcycle accident or gunshot wound or whatever.
好吧，如果你能绕过脊髓的受损区域，将脊髓本身的植入物与大脑中的植入物连接起来，让它们互相交谈，你就可以从运动皮层取出完美完整的运动信号，并将它们发送到脊髓，而脊髓中的大部分接线在车祸、摩托车事故或枪伤等造成的伤害水平以下的脊髓中应该是完整的。
And it should be possible to reconnect the brain to the body in that way.
以这种方式将大脑与身体重新连接起来应该是可能的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
So not out of the realm of possibility that in some small number of years, that Neuralink will be able to reconnect somebody's own body to their brain.
因此，在短短几年内，Neuralink 将能够将某人的身体与大脑重新连接起来，这并非不可能。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And here I just want to flag the 100 years or more of incredible work by basic scientists.
在这里，我只想赞扬基础科学家 100 年来所做的令人难以置信的工作。
The names that I learned about in my textbooks as a graduate student were like Georgopoulos, and that won't mean anything to anyone unless you're a neuroscientist, but Georgopoulos performed some of the first sophisticated recordings out of motor cortex, just simply asking what sorts of electrical patterns are present in motor cortex as an animal or human moves a limb.
作为一名研究生，我在课本上了解到的名字就像乔治普洛斯（Georgopoulos），除非你是神经科学家，否则这对任何人都没有任何意义，但乔治普洛斯在运动皮层中进行了一些最早的复杂录音，只是简单地询问当动物或人类移动肢体时，运动皮层中存在什么样的电模式。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Krishna Shenoy being another major pioneer in this area, and many others.
Krishna Shenoy 是该领域的另一位主要先驱，还有许多其他领域。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And just really highlighting the fact that basic research where a exploration of neural tissue is carried out at the level of anatomy and physiology really sets down the pavement on the runway to do the sorts of big clinical expeditions that you all at Neuralink are doing.
我要强调的是，在解剖学和生理学层面上对神经组织进行探索的基础研究确实为 Neuralink 正在进行的大型临床探索铺平了道路。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
It can't be said enough that we, broadly speaking in industry, sometimes are and sometimes stand on the shoulders of academic giants.
从广义上讲，我们在工业界有时是、有时是站在学术巨人的肩膀上，这一点怎么说都不为过。
They were the real pioneers, that they were involved in the grind for years in an unglorious, unglamorous way.
他们是真正的先驱者，多年来他们以一种不光彩、不光彩的方式从事这项工作。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No stock options.
没有股票期权。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
No stock options.
没有股票期权。
And the reward for all the hard work is a paper at the end of the day that is read by dozens of people.
所有辛勤工作的回报是一天结束时一篇被数十人阅读的论文。
And so they were selfless academic researchers that made all this possible, and we, all humanity and Neuralink, owe them a massive debt of gratitude for all the hard work that they've done and continue to do.
因此，他们是无私的学术研究人员，使这一切成为可能，我们，全人类和 Neuralink，对他们已经完成和继续做的所有辛勤工作深表感谢。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I agree.
我同意。
Along the lines of augmentation, early on in some of the public discussions about Neuralink that I overheard between Elon and various podcast hosts, et cetera, there were some lofty ideas set out that I think are still very much in play in people's minds.
沿着增强的思路，在早期我无意中听到 Elon 和各种播客主持人等人之间关于 Neuralink 的一些公开讨论中，提出了一些崇高的想法，我认为这些想法仍然在人们的脑海中发挥着重要作用。
Things like, for instance, electrical stimulation of the hippocampus that you so appropriately have worn on your shirt today.
比如说，对海马体进行电刺激，你今天就很恰当地把它戴在了衬衫上。
So for those, yeah, beautiful.
所以对于那些，是的，美丽。
It looks like a Golgi or a Cajal rendition of the hippocampus.
它看起来像海马体的高尔基体或卡哈尔体。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Translates to seahorse, and it's an area of the brain that's involved in learning and memory, among other things.
翻译过来就是海马，它是大脑中与学习和记忆等相关的区域。
There was this idea thrown out that a chip or chips could be implanted in the hippocampus that would allow greater than normal memory abilities, perhaps.
有人提出了这样的想法，即可以将一个或多个芯片植入海马体中，这也许可以提供比正常人更强的记忆能力。
That's one idea.
这是一个想法。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Another idea that I heard about in these discussions was, for instance, that you would have some chips in your brain and I would have some chips in my brain, and you and I could just sit here looking at each other or not, nodding or shaking our heads, and essentially hear each other's thoughts.
我在这些讨论中听到的另一个想法是，例如，你的大脑中会有一些芯片，我的大脑中也会有一些芯片，你和我可以坐在这里互相看或不看对方，点头或摇头，基本上可以听到彼此的想法。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Which sounds outrageous, but of course, why not?
这听起来很离谱，但当然，为什么不呢？
Why should we constrain ourselves to, as our good friend Eddie Chang, who's a neurosurgeon who was already on this podcast once before, said, "Speech is just the shaping of breath as it exits our lungs."
我们为什么要限制自己，正如我们的好朋友埃迪·张（Eddie Chang）所说的那样，“言语只是呼吸从我们肺部排出时的形状。”他是一位神经外科医生，之前曾参加过这个播客。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Incredible, really, when you think about it.
仔细想想，真的难以置信。
But we don't necessarily need speech to hear and understand each other's thoughts because the neural signals that produce that shaping of the lungs come from some intention.
但我们不一定需要言语来听到和理解彼此的想法，因为产生肺部形状的神经信号来自某种意图。
I have some idea, although it might not seem like it, about what I'm going to say next.
我对接下来要说的话有一些想法，尽管看起来可能并非如此。
So is that possible that we could sit here and just hear each other's thoughts and-
那么我们是否可以坐在这里聆听彼此的想法，然后——
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and also how would we restrict what the other person could hear?
我们如何限制其他人可以听到的内容？
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Well, so absolutely.
嗯，绝对如此。
Think about the fact that we could do this right now.
想想我们现在就可以做到这一点。
If you pulled out your phone and started texting me on my phone and I looked down and started texting you, we would be communicating without looking at each other or talking.
如果你拿出手机并开始用我的手机给我发短信，而我低下头开始给你发短信，我们就可以在不看对方或说话的情况下进行交流。
Shifting that function from a phone to an implanted device, it requires no magic advance, no leap forward.
将该功能从手机转移到植入设备，不需要任何神奇的进步，也不需要飞跃。
It's technology we already know how to do.
这是我们已经知道如何去做的技术。
If we, say, put a device in that allows you to control a keyboard and a mouse, which is our stated intention for our first human clinical trial.
如果我们放入一个可以控制键盘和鼠标的设备，这就是我们首次人体临床试验的既定意图。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And again, I'm deliberately interrupting.
再说一遍，我是故意打断的。
Or I can text an entire team of people-
或者我可以给整个团队发短信-
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Sure
当然可以
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
simultaneously-
同时——
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Sure
当然可以
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and they can text me, and in theory, I could have a bunch of thoughts and 5, 10, 50 people could hear.
他们可以给我发短信，理论上，我可以有很多想法，并且 5、10、50 个人可以听到。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or probably more to their preference, they could talk to me.
或者可能更符合他们的喜好，他们可以和我交谈。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
And so texting each other with our brains is maybe an uninspiring rendition of this, but it's not very difficult to imagine the implementation of the same device in a more verbally focused area of the brain that allows you to more naturally speak the thoughts that you're thinking and have them rendered into speech that I can hear, maybe via a bone conducting implant.
因此，用我们的大脑互相发短信可能是一种平淡无奇的表现，但不难想象，在大脑中更注重语言的区域中使用相同的设备，可以让你更自然地说出你正在思考的想法，并将它们转化为我能听到的语言，也许是通过骨传导植入物。
So silently hear.
就这样默默地听着。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or not silently.
或者不是默默地。
Let's say I was getting off the plane and I wanted to let somebody at home know that I had arrived.
假设我正要下飞机，我想让家里的人知道我已经到达。
I might be able to think in my mind, think their first name, which might queue up a device that would then play my voice to them-
我也许能够在脑海中思考，想到他们的名字，这可能会排队一个设备，然后向他们播放我的声音——
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Sure.
当然。
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and say, "Just got off the plane.
并说：“刚下飞机。
I'm going to grab my bag, and then I'll give you a call."
我去拿包，然后给你打电话。”
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Right.
对。
On their home Alexa.
在他们的家 Alexa 上。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
So that's all possible, meaning we know the origin of the neural signals-
所以这都是可能的，这意味着我们知道神经信号的起源-
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that gives rise to speech.
从而产生言语。
We know the different mechanical and neural apparati, like the cochlea, eardrums, et cetera, that transduce sound waves into electrical signals.
我们知道不同的机械和神经装置，如耳蜗、鼓膜等，可以将声波转换成电信号。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Essentially, all the pieces are known.
基本上，所有的部分都是已知的。
We're just really talking about-
我们只是在谈论——
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Refining it
精炼它
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
yeah, refining it and reconfiguring it.
是的，完善它并重新配置它。
It's not an easy problem, but it's really an engineering problem rather than a neuroscience problem.
这不是一个简单的问题，但它确实是一个工程问题而不是神经科学问题。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
For that use case, for non-verbal communication you might say, that's a solved problem in a very crude, disjointed way.
对于该用例，对于非语言交流，您可能会说，这是一个以非常粗糙、脱节的方式解决的问题。
Some labs have solved part one of it, some labs have solved part two of it.
一些实验室已经解决了第一部分，一些实验室已经解决了第二部分。
There are products out there that solve, say, the implanted bone conduction part of it for the deaf community There are no implementations I'm aware of that are pulling all that together into one product that's a streamlined package from end to end.
有一些产品可以解决聋哑社区的植入骨传导部分问题。 据我所知，没有任何实现可以将所有这些整合到一个产品中，该产品是一个从头到尾的简化包。
I think that's a few years down the road.
我认为这还需要几年的时间。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And we, I think, have some hints of how easily or poorly people will adapt to these, let's call them novel transformations.
我认为，我们有一些迹象表明人们会多么容易或很难适应这些，让我们称之为新奇的转变。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
A few years ago, I was on Instagram, and I saw a post from a woman, her name is Kasar Jacobson, and she is deaf since birth and can sign and to some extent can read lips.
几年前，我在Instagram上看到一个女人的帖子，她的名字叫Kasar Jacobson，她从出生起就聋了，可以手语，并且在某种程度上可以读唇语。
But she was discussing Neosensory.
但她正在讨论新感觉。
So this is a device that translates sound in the environment into touch sensations on her hand or wrist.
因此，这是一种将环境中的声音转化为她的手或手腕上的触觉的设备。
She's an admirer of birds and all things avian.
她是鸟类和所有鸟类事物的崇拜者。
And I reached out to her about this device because I'm very curious because this is a very interesting use case of neuroplasticity in the sensory domain-
我向她询问了这个设备，因为我很好奇，因为这是感觉领域神经可塑性的一个非常有趣的用例 -
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Sure
当然可以
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
which is a fascination of mine.
这是我的一个魅力所在。
And she said that, yes, indeed, it afforded her novel experiences.
她说，是的，确实，这给了她新奇的经历。
Now, when walking past, say, pigeons in the park, if they were to make some or whatever sounds that pigeons make-
现在，当走过公园里的鸽子时，如果他们发出鸽子发出的一些或任何声音——
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that she would feel those sounds, and that indeed it enriched her experience of those birds in ways that obviously it wouldn't otherwise.
她会感觉到这些声音，而且这确实丰富了她对这些鸟的体验，而其他方式显然不会如此。
I haven't followed up with her recently to find out whether or not ongoing use of Neosensory has made for a better, worse, or kind of equivalent experience of avians in the world, which for her is a near obsession.
我最近没有对她进行跟踪调查，以了解持续使用新感觉是否会为世界上的鸟类带来更好、更差或类似的体验，这对她来说近乎痴迷。
So she delights in them.
所以她很喜欢它们。
What are your thoughts about peripheral devices like that?
您对此类外围设备有何看法？
Peripheral meaning outside of the skull.
外围的意思是头骨之外。
No requirement for a surgery.
不需要手术。
Do you think that there's a more immediate or even a just generally potent use case for peripheral devices?
您是否认为外围设备有更直接甚至普遍有效的用例？
And do you think that those are going to be used more readily before the kind of brain surgery requiring devices are used?
您认为在使用需要设备的脑部手术之前，这些设备会更容易使用吗？
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Certainly, the barrier to entry is lower.
当然，进入门槛较低。
The barrier to adoption is low.
采用的门槛很低。
If you're making a tactile glove, that's hard to say no to when you can slip it on and slip it off and not have to get your skin cut at all.
如果您正在制作触觉手套，那么当您可以戴上或脱下它而根本不需要割伤皮肤时，就很难拒绝。
Again, there's no perfect measure of the efficacy of a device, of one device compared to another, especially across modalities.
同样，对于一种设备、一种设备相对于另一种设备的功效，尤其是跨模式而言，没有完美的衡量标准。
But one way that you can start to compare apples to oranges is bitrate.
但你可以开始比较苹果和橘子的一种方法是比特率。
Useful information in or out of the brain as transformed into digital data.
大脑内外的有用信息转化为数字数据。
And so you can put a single number on that.
所以你可以用一个数字来表示。
And you have to ask when you look at a device like that is what is the bitrate in?
当您查看这样的设备时，您必须问一下比特率是多少？
What is the bitrate out?
输出比特率是多少？
How much information are you able to usefully convey into the system and get out of the system into the body, into the brain?
你能够将多少信息有效地传送到系统中，并从系统中传送到身体、大脑中？
And I think what we've seen in the early stabs at this is that there's a very low threshold for bitrate on some of the devices that are trying to avoid direct brain surgery.
我认为我们在早期尝试中看到的是，一些试图避免直接脑部手术的设备的比特率阈值非常低。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Could you perhaps say what you just said, but in a way that maybe people who aren't as familiar with thinking about bitrates-
你能否以一种可能不太熟悉比特率的人的方式说出你刚才所说的话——
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Sure
当然可以
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
might be able to digest?
或许能够消化？
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There, I'm referring to myself.
在那里，我指的是我自己。
I understand bitrate.
我了解比特率。
I understand that adding a new channel of information is just that, adding information.
我明白，添加新的信息渠道就是添加信息。
Are you saying it's important to understand whether or not that new information provides for novel function or experience?
您是说了解新信息是否提供新颖的功能或体验很重要吗？
And to what extent is the newness of that valid and adaptive?
这种新颖性在多大程度上是有效的和适应性的？
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Well, I'm saying more it's hard to measure utility in this space.
好吧，我想说的是，在这个领域很难衡量效用。
It's hard to put a single metric, a single number on how useful a technology is.
很难用一个单一的指标、一个数字来衡量一项技术的有用程度。
One crude way to try to get at that is bitrate.
尝试实现这一目标的一种粗略方法是比特率。
Think of it as back in the days of dial-up modems.
可以将其视为拨号调制解调器时代。
The bitrate of your modem was 56K or 96.
您的调制解调器的比特率为 56K 或 96。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I can still hear the sound of the dial-up in the background.
我仍然可以听到背景中的拨号声音。
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
That was a bitrate that thankfully kept steadily going up and up and up.
值得庆幸的是，这个比特率一直在稳步上升。
Your internet service provider gives you a number that is the maximum usable data that you can transmit back and forth from the internet.
您的互联网服务提供商为您提供一个数字，该数字是您可以从互联网来回传输的最大可用数据。
That's a useful way to think about these assistive devices.
这是思考这些辅助设备的有用方法。
How much information are you able to get into the brain and out of the brain usefully?
您能够有效地进出大脑的信息有多少？
And right now that number is very small, even compared to the old modems.
现在，即使与旧调制解调器相比，这个数字也非常小。
But you have to ask yourself when you're looking at a technology, what's the ceiling?
但当你研究一项技术时，你必须问自己，上限是什么？
What's the theoretical maximum?
理论最大值是多少？
And for a lot of these technologies, the theoretical maximum is very low, disappointingly low, even if it's perfectly executed and perfectly developed as a technology.
对于许多这样的技术来说，理论上的最大值非常低，低得令人失望，即使它作为一项技术得到了完美的执行和完美的开发。
And I think the thing that attracts a lot of us to a technology like Neuralink is that the ceiling is incredibly high.
我认为像 Neuralink 这样的技术吸引我们很多人的原因是它的上限非常高。
There's no obvious reason that you can't interface with millions of neurons as this technology is refined and developed further.
随着这项技术的进一步完善和发展，没有明显的理由表明您无法与数百万个神经元进行交互。
So that's the kind of wide band, high bandwidth brain interface that you want to develop if you're talking about a semantic prosthetic, an AI assistant to your cognitive abilities.
如果你谈论的是语义假肢，即认知能力的人工智能助手，那么这就是你想要开发的宽带、高带宽大脑接口。
The more sci-fi things that we think about in the coming decades.
未来几十年我们会思考更多的科幻事物。
So it's an important caveat when you're evaluating these technologies, that you really want it to be something that you can expand off into the sci-fi.
因此，当您评估这些技术时，需要注意的是，您确实希望它能够扩展到科幻小说中。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So let's take this a step further, because as you're saying this, I'm realizing that people have been doing exactly what Neuralink is trying to do now for a very long time.
因此，让我们更进一步，因为正如您所说，我意识到人们长期以来一直在做 Neuralink 现在正在尝试做的事情。
Let me give you an example.
让我举个例子。
People who are blind, who have no pattern vision, have used canes for a very long time.
盲人、没有模式视觉的人很长时间以来都使用手杖。
Now, the cane is not a chip, it's not an electrode, it's not neurosensory.
现在，手杖不是芯片，不是电极，也不是神经感觉装置。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
None of that stuff.
没有那些东西。
What it is is essentially a stick that has an interface with a surface, so it's swept back and forth across the ground and translating what would otherwise be visual cues into somatosensory cues.
它本质上是一根与表面有接口的棍子，因此它可以在地面上来回扫动，并将视觉提示转化为体感提示。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And we know that blind people are very good at understanding, even when they are approaching, say, a curb edge, because they are integrating that information from the tip of the cane up through their somatosensory cortex and their motor cortex with other things, like the changes in the wind and the sound as they round a corner.
我们知道，盲人非常善于理解，即使他们正在接近路边，因为他们正在将来自手杖尖端的信息通过体感皮层和运动皮层与其他事物整合起来，例如风的变化和转弯时的声音。
And here I'm imagining a corner in San Francisco downtown, where as you get to the corner, it's a completely different set of auditory cues.
我在这里想象旧金山市中心的一个角落，当你到达这个角落时，这是一组完全不同的听觉线索。
And very often we know, and this is because my laboratory worked on visual repair for a long time, I talked to a lot of blind people who use different devices to navigate the world, that they aren't aware of the fact that they're integrating these other cues, but they nonetheless do them subconsciously.
我们经常知道，这是因为我的实验室长期致力于视觉修复，我与许多使用不同设备来导航世界的盲人交谈，他们没有意识到他们正在整合这些其他线索，但他们仍然下意识地这样做。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And in doing so, get pretty good at navigating with a cane.
在这样做的过程中，你可以熟练地使用拐杖导航。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Now, a cane isn't perfect, but you can imagine the other form of navigating as a blind person, which is to just attach yourself or attach to you another nervous system.
现在，手杖并不完美，但你可以想象盲人导航的另一种形式，那就是附着你自己或附着另一个神经系统。
The best that we know being a dog, a sighted dog-
我们所知道的最好的事情是一只狗，一只有视力的狗——
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Sure
当然可以
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that can cue you, again, with stopping at a curb's edge or even if there's some individuals that might seem a little sketchy.
这可以再次提醒您在路边停车，或者即使有些人看起来有点粗略。
Dogs are also very good at sensing different arousal states in others, threat, danger.
狗也非常善于感知他人的不同唤醒状态、威胁、危险。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I mean, they're exquisite at it, right?
我的意思是，他们很擅长，对吧？
So here, what we're really talking about is taking a cane or another biological system, essentially a whole nervous system, and saying, "This other nervous system's job is to get you to navigate more safely through the world."
所以在这里，我们真正讨论的是拿着一根手杖或另一个生物系统，本质上是一个完整的神经系统，然后说：“这个另一个神经系统的工作是让你更安全地穿越世界。”
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In some sense, what Neuralink is trying to do is that, but with robotics to insert them and chips, which raises the question, people are going to say, "Finally, a question." The question is this: we hear about BMI, brain-machine interface-
从某种意义上说，Neuralink 试图做的就是这一点，但是有了机器人技术来插入它们和芯片，这就提出了问题，人们会说，“最后，一个问题。”问题是这样的：我们听说过 BMI，脑机接口——
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
which is really what Neuralink specializes in.
这确实是 Neuralink 的专长。
We also hear about AI, another example where there's great promise and great fear.
我们还听说过人工智能，这是另一个充满希望和巨大恐惧的例子。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We hear about machine learning as well.
我们也听说过机器学习。
To what extent can these brain-machine interfaces learn the same way a seeing eye dog would learn, but unlike a seeing eye dog, continue to learn over time and get better and better and better because it's also listening to the nervous system that it's trying to support?
这些脑机接口能在多大程度上像导盲犬那样学习，但与导盲犬不同的是，它们会随着时间的推移不断学习，并且变得越来越好，因为它也在倾听它试图支持的神经系统的声音？
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Put simply, what is the role for AI and machine learning in the type of work that you're doing?
简而言之，人工智能和机器学习在您正在从事的工作类型中扮演什么角色？
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
That's a great question.
这是一个很好的问题。
I think it goes both ways.
我认为这是双向的。
Basically, what you're doing is taking a very crude software intelligence, I would say not exactly a full-blown AI, but some well-designed software that can adapt to changes in firing of the brain, and you're coupling it with another form of intelligence, a human intelligence, and you're allowing the two to learn each other.
基本上，你所做的就是采用非常粗糙的软件智能，我想说的不是一个成熟的人工智能，而是一些精心设计的软件，可以适应大脑发射的变化，你将它与另一种形式的智能（人类智能）结合起来，你允许两者相互学习。
So undoubtedly, the human that has a Neuralink device will get better at using it over time.
因此，毫无疑问，拥有 Neuralink 设备的人随着时间的推移会更好地使用它。
Undoubtedly, the software that the Neuralink engineers have written will adapt to the firing patterns that the device is able to record, and over time, focus in on meaningful signals toward movement, right?
毫无疑问，Neuralink 工程师编写的软件将适应设备能够记录的发射模式，并随着时间的推移，专注于有意义的运动信号，对吗？
So if a neuron is high firing rate when you intend to move the mouse cursor up and to the right, it doesn't know that when it starts.
因此，如果当您打算将鼠标光标向上和向右移动时，神经元的放电率很高，那么它不知道它何时开始。
When you first put this in, it's just a random series of signals, as far as the chip knows.
当你第一次输入它时，就芯片所知，它只是一系列随机信号。
But you start correlating it with what you know the person wants to do, as expressed in a series of games.
但你开始将其与你知道的人想要做的事情联系起来，如一系列游戏中所表达的那样。
So you assume that the person wants to move the mouse on the screen to the target that's shown because you tell them that's the goal.
因此，您假设该人想要将屏幕上的鼠标移动到显示的目标，因为您告诉他们这就是目标。
And so you start correlating the activity that you record when they're moving toward an up and right target on a screen with that firing pattern, and similarly for up and left, down and left, down and right.
因此，您开始将当他们朝屏幕上的向上和向右目标移动时记录的活动与该发射模式相关联，类似地，向上和向左、向下和向左、向下和向右也是如此。
And so you develop a model semi-intelligently in the software for what the person is intending to do and let the person run wild with it for a while, and they start to get better at using the model presented to them by the software, as expressed by the mouse moving or not moving properly on the screen, right?
因此，您在软件中半智能地针对人们打算做的事情开发了一个模型，并让人们疯狂地使用它一段时间，然后他们开始更好地使用软件提供给他们的模型，就像鼠标在屏幕上正确移动或不移动所表示的那样，对吧？
So imagine a scenario where you're asking somebody to play piano, but the sound that comes out of each key randomly shifts over time.
因此，想象一下这样一个场景：您要求某人弹钢琴，但每个琴键发出的声音会随着时间的推移而随机变化。
Very difficult problem, but a human brain is good enough, with the aid of software, to solve that problem and map well enough to a semi-stable state that they're going to know how to use that mouse, even when they, say, turn the device off for the night, come back to it the next day, and some of the signals have shifted.
这是一个非常困难的问题，但人脑在软件的帮助下足够好，可以解决这个问题，并足够好地映射到半稳定状态，以便他们知道如何使用鼠标，即使他们，比如说，晚上关掉设备，第二天再回来，一些信号已经发生了变化。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
As you're describing this, I'm recalling a recent experience.
当你描述这一点时，我想起了最近的一次经历。
I got one of these rowers-
我得到了其中一位划船者-
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
to exercise.
锻炼身体。
And I am well aware that there's a proper row stroke and there's an improper row stroke.
我很清楚有正确的划船动作和不正确的划船动作。
And most everybody, including me, who's never been coached in rowing, gets on this thing and pushes with their legs and pulls with their arms and back, and it's some mix of incorrect and maybe a smidgen of correct type execution.
大多数人，包括我在内，从来没有接受过划船训练，都会在这件事上用腿推，用手臂和背部拉，这是一些不正确的混合体，也许还有一点正确的执行方式。
There's a function within the rower that allows you, in this case me, to play a game where you can actually, every row stroke you generate arrows toward a dartboard.
划船器中有一个功能，可以让您（在本例中是我）玩一个游戏，在该游戏中，您实际上可以在每次划船时生成指向飞镖靶的箭头。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it knows whether or not you're generating the appropriate forces at the given segment of the row, the initial pull, when you're leaning back, et cetera, and adjusts the trajectory of the arrow so that when you do a proper row stroke, it gets closer to a bullseye.
它知道你是否在划船的给定部分产生适当的力，初始拉力，当你向后倾斜时，等等，并调整箭头的轨迹，以便当你进行适当的划船动作时，它会更接近靶心。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it's very satisfying-
而且还很满足～
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Sure
当然可以
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
because you now have a visual feedback that's unrelated to the kinds of instructions that one would expect, like, "Oh, hinge your hip a bit more," or, "Splay your knees a bit more," or, "Reach more with your arms," or, "Pull first with your back." All the rowers are probably cringing as I say this because they're realizing what is exactly the point, which is I don't know how to row, but over time, simply by paying attention to whether or not the arrow is hitting the bullseye or not more or less frequently, you can improve your row stroke and get, as I understand, pretty close to optimal row stroke in the same way that if you had a coach there telling you, "Hey, do this and do that." What we're really talking about here is neurobiofeedback.
因为你现在得到的视觉反馈与人们所期望的指令无关，例如“哦，臀部再稍微弯曲一点”，或者“膝盖再张开一点”，或者“手臂伸得更多”，或者“先用背部拉动”。当我这么说的时候，所有的划船运动员可能都会感到畏缩，因为他们意识到了问题的关键，那就是我不知道如何划船，但随着时间的推移，只要注意箭是否频繁地击中靶心，你就可以改善你的划船划船动作，并且据我所知，非常接近最佳划船划船划船动作，就像你有一个教练告诉你，“嘿，做这个，做那个。”我们在这里真正讨论的是神经生物反馈。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So is that analogy similar to what you're describing?
那么这个类比与您所描述的相似吗？
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Yeah, that's a great analogy.
是的，这是一个很好的类比。
Humans are really good at learning how to play games in software.
人类真的很擅长学习如何在软件中玩游戏。
So video games are an awesome platform for us to use as a training environment for people to get better at controlling these things.
因此，视频游戏是一个很棒的平台，可以作为人们更好地控制这些事物的培训环境。
In fact, it's the default and the obvious way to do it, is to have people and monkeys play video games.
事实上，这是默认且显而易见的方法，就是让人和猴子玩电子游戏。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do you play video games?
你玩电子游戏吗？
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Yeah, sure.
是的，当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Which video games?
哪些视频游戏？
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Let's see.
让我们看看。
I play old ones.
我玩老的。
I'm a little nostalgic, so I like the old Blizzard games, StarCraft and Warcraft.
我有点怀旧，所以喜欢暴雪的老游戏，星际争霸和魔兽争霸。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, wow.
哦，哇。
I don't even know those.
我什至不知道那些。
I remember the first Apple computers.
我记得第一台苹果电脑。
How old are you?
你今年多大？
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Forty-three.
四十三岁。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay, 47.
好的，47。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Forty-four now, as of a few days ago.
截至几天前，现在四十四岁。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, happy birthday.
哦，生日快乐。
So we're a little bit offset there.
所以我们在那里有点偏移。
Yeah, I can recall Mike Tyson's Punch Out -
是的，我记得迈克·泰森的 Punch Out -
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Sure
当然可以
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
like the original Nintendo game, Super Mario Brothers.
就像最初的任天堂游戏《超级马里奥兄弟》一样。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
It's a hard game.
这是一场艰难的比赛。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's a hard game.
这是一场艰难的比赛。
So the games you're describing, I don't recall.
所以你描述的游戏我不记得了。
My understanding is that the newer games are far more sophisticated.
我的理解是，新游戏要复杂得多。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
In some respects.
在某些方面。
I did recently find time to play Cyberpunk, which was really satisfying and maybe appropriate.
我最近确实抽出时间玩了《赛博朋克》，这真的很令人满意，也许也很合适。
It's a game where the characters are all fully modded out with cybernetic implants.
在这款游戏中，所有角色都通过控制论植入物进行了完全改装。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, perfect.
哦，完美。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
But the root of the game is run around and shoot things.
但游戏的根本是跑来跑去并射击东西。
So maybe not so different from Duck Hunt or whatever from our childhoods.
所以也许与《猎鸭》或我们童年时的其他活动没有太大不同。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The reason I ask about video games is there's been some controversy as to whether or not they are making young brains better or worse.
我询问电子游戏的原因是，对于电子游戏是否会让年轻人的大脑变得更好或更糟，存在一些争议。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I think some of the work from Adam Gazzaley's lab at UCSF and other laboratories have shown that actually provided that children in particular and adults are also spending time in normal, let's call them more traditional face-to-face interactions, that video games can actually make nervous systems, that is people, much more proficient at learning and motor execution.
我认为加州大学旧金山分校 Adam Gazzaley 实验室和其他实验室的一些工作已经表明，实际上，只要儿童（特别是儿童和成年人）也花时间进行正常的（我们称之为更传统的面对面互动），视频游戏实际上可以使神经系统（即人）更加精通学习和运动执行。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Visual detection, and on and on.
视觉检测，等等。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
There's some work showing that surgeons are better if they play video games.
有一些研究表明，如果外科医生玩电子游戏，他们会做得更好。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
So I try to squeeze some in as a professional development activity.
所以我尝试挤出一些作为专业发展活动。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Great.
太棒了。
Well, I'm sure you're getting cheers from those that like video games out there, and some of the parents who are trying to get their kids to play fewer video games are cringing, but that's okay.
好吧，我相信那些喜欢电子游戏的人会为你欢呼，而一些试图让孩子少玩电子游戏的父母会感到畏缩，但这没关系。
We'll let them settle their familial disputes among themselves.
我们会让他们自己解决家庭纠纷。
Let's talk about pigs.
我们来谈谈猪吧。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Neuralink has been quite generous, I would say, in announcing their discoveries and their goals.
我想说，Neuralink 在宣布他们的发现和目标时相当慷慨。
And I want to highlight this because I think it's quite unusual for a company to do this.
我想强调这一点，因为我认为公司这样做是很不寻常的。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm probably going to earn a few enemies by saying this.
我说这话可能会树敌一些。
Despite the fact that I've always owned Apple devices and I'm from the South Bay, the Apple design team is notoriously cryptic about what they're going to do next, or when the next phone or computer is going to come out is vaulted to a serious extent.
尽管我一直拥有苹果设备，而且我来自南湾，但苹果设计团队对于他们下一步要做什么，或者下一款手机或电脑何时推出，是出了名的神秘。
Neuralink has been pretty open about their goals.
Neuralink 对于他们的目标非常开放。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
With the understanding that goals change and have to change.
了解目标会改变并且必须改变。
And one of the things that they've done, which I think is marvelous, is they've held online symposia where you and some other colleagues of mine from the neuroscience community, Dan Adams, who I have tremendous respect for, and Elon and others there at Neuralink have shared some of the progress that they've made in experimental animals.
他们所做的事情之一，我认为是了不起的，是他们举办了在线研讨会，你和我神经科学界的其他一些同事，丹·亚当斯（我非常尊重他），埃隆和 Neuralink 的其他人分享了他们在实验动物中取得的一些进展。
I'm highlighting this because I think if one takes a step back, just for most people to know about and realize that there's experimentation on animals, implantation of electrodes and so on, is itself a pretty bold move because that understandably evokes some strong emotions in people, and in some people evokes extremely strong emotions.
我之所以强调这一点，是因为我认为如果退一步，让大多数人了解并意识到在动物身上进行实验、植入电极等，这本身就是一个相当大胆的举动，因为这可以理解地会在人们中激起一些强烈的情绪，并且在某些人中会激起极其强烈的情绪。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Neuralink did one such symposium where they showed implant devices in pigs.
Neuralink 举办了一场这样的研讨会，他们在猪身上展示了植入装置。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Then they did another one, you guys did another one, where it was implant devices in monkeys.
然后他们做了另一项，你们又做了另一项，是在猴子身上植入装置。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I assume at some point there will be one of these public symposia where the implant devices will be in a human.
我想在某个时候将会有一场这样的公共研讨会，其中植入设备将被植入人体。
What was the rationale for using pigs?
使用猪的理由是什么？
I'm told pigs are very nice creatures.
我听说猪是非常好的动物。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm told that they are quite smart.
我听说他们很聪明。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And for all my years as a neuroscientist and having worked admittedly on every species from mice to cuttlefish to humans to hamsters to, I confess, various carnivore species, which I no longer do, I work on humans now for various reasons.
作为一名神经科学家，我多年来一直在研究从小鼠到乌贼到人类到仓鼠的每一个物种，我承认，还有各种食肉动物物种，但我不再这样做了，我现在出于各种原因对人类进行研究。
I never in my life thought I would see an implant device in the cortex of a pig.
我一生中从未想过会在猪的皮质中看到植入装置。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Why work on pigs?
为什么要在猪身上工作？
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Well, let me say first, Neuralink is almost entirely composed of animal-loving people.
好吧，首先我要说的是，Neuralink 几乎完全是由热爱动物的人组成的。
The people at Neuralink are ...
Neuralink 的人是...
obsessive animal lovers.
痴迷的动物爱好者。
There are signs up all around the office, spontaneously put up by people within the organization talking about how we want to save animals, we want to protect animals.
办公室里到处都是标语，是组织内部人员自发张贴的，谈论我们要如何拯救动物，我们要保护动物。
If there was any possible way to help people the way we want to help people without using animals in our research, we would do it.
如果有任何可能的方法可以像我们希望的那样帮助人们，而无需在研究中使用动物，我们就会这样做。
It's just not known how to do that right now.
只是现在还不知道如何做到这一点。
And so we are completely restricted to making advances, to getting a device approval through the FDA by first showing that it's incredibly safe in animals.
因此，我们完全仅限于取得进展，通过首先证明它在动物中非常安全来获得 FDA 的设备批准。
And so-
所以——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
As is the case for any medical advancement, essentially.
本质上，任何医学进步都是如此。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Right.
对。
Exactly
正是如此
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I mean, I do want to highlight this, that the FDA and the other governing bodies oversee these types of experiments and ensure that they're done with a minimum of discomfort to the animals, of course.
我的意思是，我确实想强调这一点，即 FDA 和其他管理机构监督此类实验，并确保实验过程中对动物造成的不适降到最低。
But I think there's an inherent specism-
但我认为有一种固有的特殊主义——
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in most humans.
在大多数人身上。
Not all.
不是全部。
Some people truly see equivalence between a lizard and a human, lizard life being equivalent to human life.
有些人确实看到蜥蜴和人是平等的，蜥蜴的生命和人的生命是等同的。
Most human beings, I think, in particular human beings who themselves or who have loved ones that are suffering from diseases that they hope could be cured at some point-
我认为，大多数人，尤其是那些自己或亲人患有疾病的人，他们希望在某个时候能够治愈——
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
view themselves as specious, and feel that if you have to work on a biological system in order to solve the problem, working on non-human animals first makes sense-
认为自己是似是而非的，并且觉得如果你必须在生物系统上工作才能解决问题，那么首先在非人类动物上工作是有意义的——
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
to most people.
对大多数人来说。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But certainly there's a category of people that feels very strongly in the opposite direction.
但肯定有一类人的感受非常强烈地相反。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Sure.
当然。
And I think we would probably be having a very different conversation around animal research if we as a species, we as a culture, weren't just casually slaughtering millions of animals to eat them every single day.
我认为，如果我们作为一个物种，作为一种文化，不只是每天随意宰杀数百万只动物来吃它们，那么我们围绕动物研究的对话可能会非常不同。
And so that is a background against which the relatively minuscule number of animals used in research, it becomes almost impossible to understand why someone would point to that ridiculously small number of animals used in research when the vast, vast majority of animals that humans use and end their lives are done for food.
因此，在这样的背景下，研究中使用的动物数量相对较少，几乎无法理解为什么有人会指出研究中使用的动物数量少得可笑，而人类使用和结束生命的绝大多数动物都是为了食物。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or for fur.
或者是为了毛皮。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Or for fur-
或者是为了毛皮——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
...
...
or these other reasons that people have historically used animals.
或人们历史上使用动物的其他原因。
So in that context, we do animal research because we have to.
因此，在这种情况下，我们进行动物研究，因为我们必须这样做。
There's no other way around it.
没有其他办法可以解决这个问题。
If tomorrow laws were changed and the FDA said, "Okay, you can do some of this early experimentation in willing human participants," that would be a very interesting option.
如果明天法律发生变化，FDA 说：“好吧，你可以在自愿的人类参与者中进行一些早期实验”，这将是一个非常有趣的选择。
I think there would be a lot of people that would step up and say, "Yes, I'm willing to participate in early stage clinical research."
我想会有很多人站出来说：“是的，我愿意参与早期临床研究。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You already volunteered.
你已经自愿了。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
And I wouldn't be alone.
我并不孤单。
And that is a potential way that animals could maybe be spared being unwilling participants in this.
这是一种可能的方式，可以让动物避免成为不情愿的参与者。
On that note, to whatever extent possible, I think Neuralink goes really, really far, much, much farther than anyone I've ever heard of, any organization I've ever heard of, anything I've ever seen, to give the animals agency in every aspect of the research.
就这一点而言，无论在多大程度上，我认为 Neuralink 比我听说过的任何人、我听说过的任何组织、我见过的任何东西都走得非常非常远，在研究的各个方面为动物提供了代理权。
We have just an incredible team of people looking out for the animals and trying to design the experiments such that they're as purely opt-in as humanly possible.
我们有一支令人难以置信的团队，他们在照顾动物，并试图设计实验，让它们尽可能纯粹地选择加入。
No animal is ever compelled to participate in experiments beyond the surgery itself.
没有动物被强迫参加手术以外的实验。
So if, say, on a given day, our star monkey Pager doesn't want to play video games for smoothie, no one forces him to, ever.
因此，如果有一天，我们的明星猴子寻呼机不想为了冰沙而玩电子游戏，那么从来没有人强迫他这样做。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This is a very important point, and I want to cue people to really what Matt is saying here.
这是非常重要的一点，我想提醒人们真正了解马特在这里所说的内容。
Obviously, the animals are being researched on for Neuralink, so they don't get to opt out of the experiment.
显然，这些动物正在接受 Neuralink 的研究，所以它们不能选择退出实验。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But what he's saying is that they play these games during which neural signals are measured from the brain because they have electrodes implanted in their brain through a surgery that, thankfully to the brain, is painless, right?
但他的意思是，他们在玩这些游戏时，会从大脑测量神经信号，因为他们通过手术将电极植入大脑，幸好大脑是无痛的，对吧？
No pain receptors in the brain, and are playing for reward.
大脑中没有疼痛感受器，玩游戏是为了获得奖励。
This is very different, very different than the typical scenario in laboratories around the world where people experiment on mice, monkeys, some cases pigs, or other species in which the typical arrangement is to water-deprive the animals.
这与世界各地实验室的典型情况非常不同，在世界各地的实验室中，人们对小鼠、猴子、某些情况下的猪或其他物种进行实验，其中典型的安排是剥夺动物的水。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
We never do that.
我们从不这样做。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then have the animals work for their daily ration of water.
然后让动物们努力获得每日配给的水。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And some people are hearing this and probably think, "Wow, that's barbaric." And here I'm not trying to point fingers at the people doing that kind of work.
有些人听到这句话可能会想，“哇，这太野蛮了。”在这里，我并不是想指责那些从事此类工作的人。
I just think it's important that people understand how the work is done.
我只是认为人们了解工作是如何完成的很重要。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In order to motivate an animal to play a video game-
为了激励动物玩电子游戏-
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
depriving them of something that they yearn for is a very efficient way to do that.
剥夺他们渴望的东西是一种非常有效的方法。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
We don't do that.
我们不这样做。
They have free and full access to food this entire time.
他们在整个过程中都可以免费且充分地获取食物。
So they aren't hungry, they aren't thirsty.
所以他们不饿也不渴。
The only thing that would motivate them is if they want a treat extra to their normal rations.
唯一能激励他们的就是他们想要在正常口粮之外得到额外的享受。
But there's never any deprivation.
但从来没有任何剥夺。
There's never any adverse negative stimuli that pushes them to do anything.
从来没有任何不利的负面刺激促使他们做任何事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I must say I'm impressed by that decision, because training animals to do tasks in laboratory settings is very hard, and the reason so many researchers have defaulted to water deprivation and having animals work for a ration of water is because, frankly, it works.
我必须说我对这个决定印象深刻，因为训练动物在实验室环境中完成任务非常困难，而许多研究人员默认剥夺水并让动物为一定量的水工作的原因是，坦率地说，它有效。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It allows people to finish their PhD or their postdoc more quickly than having to wait around and try and figure out why their monkey isn't working that day.
它可以让人们更快地完成博士学位或博士后，而不是等待并试图找出他们的猴子那天不工作的原因。
In fact, having known a number of people who've done these kinds of experiments Although we've never done them in my lab.
事实上，我认识很多做过此类实验的人，尽管我们从未在我的实验室做过这些实验。
"My monkey isn't working today" is a common gripe among graduate students and postdocs-
“我的猴子今天不工作”是研究生和博士后中常见的抱怨——
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
who do this kind of work, and for people who work on mice.
从事此类工作的人以及从事老鼠研究的人。
Okay, so this is very important information to get across, and there's no public relations statement woven into this.
好的，这是需要传达的非常重要的信息，并且没有任何公共关系声明。
This is just we're talking about the nature of the research, but I think it is important that people are aware of this.
这只是我们谈论研究的性质，但我认为人们意识到这一点很重要。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
It's one of the underappreciated innovations out of Neuralink is how far the animal care team has been able to move in the direction of humane treatment of these guys.
Neuralink 的一项未被充分重视的创新是动物护理团队在人道对待这些动物的方向上取得了多大进展。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wonderful.
太棒了。
As an animal lover myself, I can only say wonderful.
作为一个动物爱好者，我只能说太棒了。
Why pigs?
为什么是猪？
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Pigs are actually fairly commonly used in medical device research, more in the cardiac area.
实际上，猪在医疗器械研究中相当普遍，尤其是在心脏领域。
Their hearts are somewhat similar to human hearts.
他们的心与人类的心有些相似。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
How big are these pigs?
这些猪有多大？
I've seen little pigs, and I've seen big pigs.
我见过小猪，也见过大猪。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Yeah, there's a range.
是的，有一个范围。
There's a bunch of different varieties of pig.
有很多不同品种的猪。
There's a bunch of different species that you can optimize for different characteristics.
有很多不同的物种，您可以针对不同的特征进行优化。
There's mini pigs, there's Yorkshires, there's a lot of different kind of pigs that we use in different contexts when we're trying to optimize a certain characteristic.
有迷你猪，有约克夏猪，当我们试图优化某个特征时，我们在不同的情况下使用了很多不同种类的猪。
So yeah, the pigs are-- We don't necessarily need them to be smart or task performers, although occasionally we have trained them to walk on a treadmill when we're studying how their limbs move for some of our spinal cord research.
所以，是的，猪——我们不一定需要它们聪明或能完成任务，尽管当我们在脊髓研究中研究它们的四肢如何移动时，我们偶尔会训练它们在跑步机上行走。
But we're not recording interesting, say, cognitive data out of their minds.
但我们并没有记录他们头脑中有趣的认知数据。
They're really just a biological platform with a skull that's close enough in size and shape to humans to be a valid platform to study the safety of the device.
它们实际上只是一个生物平台，其头骨的大小和形状与人类足够接近，可以成为研究该设备安全性的有效平台。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Unlike a monkey or a human, a pig, I don't think can reach out and hit a-
与猴子或人类不同，猪，我认为它无法伸出手来击中-
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
a button or a lever.
按钮或控制杆。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
How are they signaling that they saw or sensed something?
他们如何发出信号表明他们看到或感觉到了某些东西？
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So again, the pigs are really just a safety platform to say the device is safe to implant.
再说一次，猪实际上只是一个安全平台，表明该设备可以安全植入。
It doesn't break down or cause any kind of toxic reaction.
它不会分解或引起任何类型的毒性反应。
The monkeys are where we are really doing our heavy lifting in terms of ensuring that we're getting good signals out of the device, that what we expect to see in humans is validated on a functional level in monkeys first.
猴子是我们真正做重任的地方，确保我们从设备中获得良好的信号，我们期望在人类身上看到的信号首先在猴子的功能水平上得到验证。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Let's talk about the skull.
我们来谈谈头骨。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Years ago, you and I were enjoying a conversation about these very sorts of things that we're discussing today, and you said, "You know, the skull is actually a pretty lousy biological adaptation.
几年前，你和我正在愉快地谈论我们今天讨论的这些事情，你说：“你知道，头骨实际上是一种非常糟糕的生物适应。
Far better would be a titanium plate." Spoken like a true neurosurgeon with a radio receiver implanted in his hand.
钛板会更好。”说话就像一个真正的神经外科医生，手上植入了无线电接收器。
But in all seriousness, drilling through the skull with a two-millimeter hole, certainly don't do this at home, folks.
但说真的，在头骨上钻一个两毫米的孔，伙计们，当然不要在家里这样做。
Please, don't do this.
请不要这样做。
But yes, that's a small entry site, but I think most people cringe when they hear about that or think about that.
但是，是的，这是一个很小的入口网站，但我认为大多数人在听到或想到这一点时都会感到畏缩。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it obviously has to be done by a neurosurgeon with all the appropriate environmental conditions in place to limit infection.
显然，这必须由神经外科医生在所有适当的环境条件到位以限制感染的情况下完成。
What did you mean when you said that the skull is a poor adaptation and a titanium plate would be better?
当你说头骨适应性较差，钛板会更好时，你是什么意思？
And in particular, what does that mean in reference to things like traumatic brain injury?
特别是，这对于创伤性脑损伤等事情意味着什么？
Are human beings unnecessarily vulnerable at the level of traumatic brain injury because our skulls are just not hard enough?
人类在遭受脑外伤时是否会因为头骨不够坚硬而变得不必要的脆弱？
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Maybe I'm being too harsh about the skull.
也许我对头骨太苛刻了。
The skull is very good at what it does, given the tools that we are working with as biological organisms that develop in our mother's uterus.
考虑到我们作为在母亲子宫中发育的生物有机体所使用的工具，头骨非常擅长它的工作。
The skull is usually the appropriate size.
头骨通常大小合适。
It's one of the hardest things in your body.
这是你身体里最难的事情之一。
That said, there are a couple puzzling vulnerabilities.
也就是说，存在一些令人费解的漏洞。
Some of the thinnest bone in the skull is in the temporal region.
头骨中一些最薄的骨头位于颞区。
Neurosurgeons will all know that I'm heading toward a feature that sometimes darkly is called "God's little joke," where the very thin bone of the temporal part of the skull has one of the largest arteries that goes to the lining of the brain right attached to the inside of it.
神经外科医生都知道我正在走向一个有时被黑暗地称为“上帝的小玩笑”的特征，其中头骨颞部的非常薄的骨头有一条最大的动脉，通向大脑内壁，直接连接到它的内部。
And so this bone just to the side of your eye tends to fracture if you're struck there, and the sharp edges of that fractured bone very often cut an artery called the middle meningeal artery that leads to a big blood clot that crushes the brain.
因此，如果您被击中，眼睛一侧的这块骨头很容易骨折，而骨折骨头的锋利边缘经常会割伤一条称为脑膜中动脉的动脉，从而导致形成大血块，从而压碎大脑。
That's how a lot of people with what otherwise would be a relatively minor injury end up dying, is this large blood clot developing from high-pressured arterial blood that crushes the brain.
这就是为什么很多人受到相对较轻的伤害而最终死亡的原因，这是高压动脉血形成的大血块，压碎了大脑。
And so why would you put the artery right on the inside of the very thin bone that's most likely to fracture?
那么为什么要把动脉放在最容易骨折的非常薄的骨头的内侧呢？
It's an enduring mystery, but this is probably the most obvious failure mode in the design of a human skull.
这是一个持久的谜团，但这可能是人类头骨设计中最明显的失败模式。
Otherwise, in terms of general impact resistance, I think the brain is a very hard thing to protect, and the architecture of human anatomy probably, given all other possible architectures that can arise from development, it's not that bad really.
否则，就一般抗冲击性而言，我认为大脑是一个非常难以保护的东西，而人体解剖学的架构可能，考虑到发展过程中可能出现的所有其他可能的架构，实际上并没有那么糟糕。
One of the interesting features in terms of shock absorption that hopefully prevents a lot of traumatic brain injury is the fluid sheath around the brain.
在减震方面，一个有趣的特征是大脑周围的液体鞘，有望防止大量脑外伤。
The brain, you may know, it's mostly fat.
你可能知道，大脑主要是脂肪。
It floats in saltwater in our brains.
它漂浮在我们大脑中的盐水中。
Our brains are all floating in saltwater, and so with rapid acceleration/deceleration, that sheath of saltwater adds a marvelous protective cushion against development of bruising of the brain, say, or bleeding in the brain.
我们的大脑都漂浮在盐水中，因此随着快速加速/减速，盐水鞘增加了一个奇妙的保护垫，防止大脑瘀伤或大脑出血。
And so I think for any flaws in the design that do exist, you can imagine things being a lot worse, and there's probably a lot fewer TBIs than would exist if a human designer was taking a first crack at it.
因此，我认为对于设计中确实存在的任何缺陷，你可以想象事情会变得更糟，并且 TBI 可能比人类设计师第一次尝试时要少得多。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
As you describe the thinness of this temporal bone and the presence of a critical artery just beneath it, I'm thinking about most helmets.
当您描述这块颞骨的薄度以及其下方存在一条关键动脉时，我想到的是大多数头盔。
And here I also want to queue up the fact that while whenever we hear about TBI or CTE or brain injury, people always think football, hockey, but most traumatic brain injuries are things like car accidents or construction work.
在这里我还想指出一个事实，虽然每当我们听到 TBI 或 CTE 或脑损伤时，人们总是想到足球、曲棍球，但大多数创伤性脑损伤是车祸或建筑工作等。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's not football and hockey.
这不是足球和曲棍球。
For some reason, football and hockey and boxing get all the attention.
出于某种原因，足球、曲棍球和拳击受到了所有的关注。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But my colleagues that work on traumatic brain injury tell me that most of the traumatic brain injury they see is somebody slips at a party and hits their head or is in a car accident or environmental accidents of various kinds.
但我从事创伤性脑损伤工作的同事告诉我，他们看到的大多数创伤性脑损伤都是有人在聚会上滑倒并撞到了头部，或者是在车祸或各种环境事故中。
To my mind, most helmets don't actually cover this region close to the eyes.
在我看来，大多数头盔实际上并没有覆盖靠近眼睛的这个区域。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So is there also a failure of helmet engineering?
那么头盔工程是否也存在失败呢？
I can understand why you'd want to have your peripheral vision out the sides of your eyes, periphery of your eyes.
我可以理解为什么你想让你的周边视力离开你的眼睛的两侧，你的眼睛的周边。
But it seems to me if this is such critical real estate, why isn't it being better protected?
但在我看来，如果这是如此重要的房地产，为什么不得到更好的保护呢？
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
I'm no expert in helmets, but I don't think we see a lot of epidural hematomas in sports injuries.
我不是头盔方面的专家，但我认为我们在运动损伤中并没有看到很多硬膜外血肿。
To get this kind of injury, you usually need a really focal blunt trauma, like the baseball bat to the head is a classic mechanism of injury that would lead to a temporal bone fracture and epidural hematoma.
要遭受这种伤害，通常需要遭受真正的局灶性钝性创伤，例如棒球棒击打头部是一种经典的伤害机制，会导致颞骨骨折和硬膜外血肿。
With sports injuries, you don't often see that, especially in football with a sharper object coming in contact with the head.
对于运动损伤，你不会经常看到这种情况，尤其是在足球比赛中，有更锋利的物体接触头部。
It's usually another helmet, right, is the mechanism of injury.
通常是另一个头盔，对吧，就是受伤的机制。
So I can't think off the top of my head of an instance of this exact injury type in sports.
所以我无法立即想到体育运动中这种确切伤害类型的例子。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You spent a lot of time poking around in brains of humans.
你花了很多时间探索人类的大脑。
And while I realize this is not your area of expertise, you are somebody who I am aware cares about his health and the health of your family and I think generally people's health.
虽然我意识到这不是您的专业领域，但我知道您关心自己和家人的健康，我认为一般来说也关心人们的健康。
When you look out on the landscape of things that people can do and shouldn't do if their desire is to keep their brain healthy-
当你观察人们可以做和不应该做的事情时，如果他们的愿望是保持大脑健康的话——
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
do any data or any particular practices come to mind?
是否想到任何数据或任何特定实践？
I think we've all heard the obvious one, don't get a head injury.
我想我们都听过显而易见的一句话，不要头部受伤。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
If you do get a head injury, make sure it gets treated and don't get a second head injury.
如果您确实头部受伤，请确保接受治疗并且不要再次头部受伤。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But those are sort of duh type answers that I'm able to give.
但这些都是我能给出的废话类型的答案。
So I'm curious about the answers that perhaps I'm not able to give.
所以我很好奇也许我无法给出答案。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Well, the obvious one is one that you talk about a lot.
嗯，最明显的一个是你经常谈论的一个。
And I see a lot of the smoldering wreckage of humanity in the operating room and in the emergency room for people that come in.
我在手术室和急诊室里看到了很多人性的残骸。
My practice is in San Francisco right next to the Tenderloin, and so a lot of people that end up coming in from the Tenderloin have been drinking just spectacular amounts of alcohol for a long time, and their brains are very often on the scans, they look like small walnuts inside their empty skull.
我的诊所就在旧金山，毗邻田德隆区，所以很多从田德隆区进来的人在很长一段时间里都喝了大量的酒精，他们的大脑经常出现在扫描中，他们看起来就像空空的头骨里的小核桃。
There's so much atrophy that happens with an alcohol-soaked brain chronically.
长期浸泡在酒精中的大脑会发生很多萎缩。
I would say that's far and away the most common source of brain damage that many of us just volunteer for.
我想说，这无疑是我们许多人自愿接受的脑损伤的最常见来源。
When you look at the morbidity, kind of the human harm in aggregate that's done, it's mystifying that it's not something that we are all paranoid about.
当你观察发病率，即对人类造成的总体伤害时，你会发现，这并不是我们所有人都偏执的事情，这令人困惑。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
People will think that I don't drink at all.
人们会认为我根本不喝酒。
I'll occasionally have a drink.
我偶尔也会喝一杯。
I could take it or leave it, frankly.
坦白说，我可以接受也可以离开。
If all the alcohol in the plant disappeared, I wouldn't notice, but I do occasionally have a drink, maybe one per year or something like that.
如果植物中所有的酒精都消失了，我不会注意到，但我偶尔会喝一杯，也许每年喝一次或类似的东西。
But I am shocked at this current state of affairs around alcohol consumption and advertising, et cetera.
但我对目前酒精消费和广告等方面的事态感到震惊。
When I look at the data, mainly out of the UK Brain Bank, which basically shows that for every drink that one has on a regular basis, when you go from zero to one drink per week, there's more brain atrophy, thinning of the gray matter cortex.
当我查看主要来自英国大脑银行的数据时，这些数据基本上表明，对于一个人定期喝的每一种饮料，当你从每周零喝到一杯时，大脑会出现更多的萎缩，灰质皮质变薄。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You go from one to two, more thinning.
你从一到二，更加稀疏。
You go from two to three, and there's a near linear relationship between the amount that people are drinking and the amount of brain atrophy.
从两到三，人们的饮酒量和脑萎缩的程度之间存在近乎线性的关系。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And to me, it's just sort of obvious from these large-scale studies that, as you point out, alcohol atrophies the brain.
对我来说，从这些大规模研究中可以明显看出，正如你所指出的，酒精会使大脑萎缩。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It kills neurons.
它会杀死神经元。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I don't have any bias against alcohol or people that drink.
我对酒精或喝酒的人没有任何偏见。
I know many of them, but it does seem to me kind of shocking-
我认识其中很多人，但对我来说确实有点令人震惊——
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that we're talking about the resveratrol in red wine-
我们正在谈论红酒中的白藜芦醇-
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
which is at infinitesimally small amounts and not even clear resveratrol is good for us anyway-
其含量极小，而且即使是透明的白藜芦醇也对我们没有好处——
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
by the way.
顺便说一句。
A matter of debate, I should point out.
我应该指出，这是一个有争议的问题。
Certainly alcohol in excess is bad for the brain.
当然，过量饮酒对大脑有害。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay, so we have head hits, bad, alcohol, bad.
好吧，我们有头部受伤，糟糕，酒精，糟糕。
You're working, as you mentioned, near the Tenderloin.
正如你提到的，你正在田德隆区附近工作。
Is there any awareness that amphetamine use can disrupt brain structure or function?
您是否意识到使用安非他明会破坏大脑结构或功能？
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
That's not an area that I've spent a lot of time researching in.
这不是我花了很多时间研究的领域。
I incidentally take care of people that have used every substance known to man in quantities that are spectacular.
我顺便照顾那些使用了人类已知的每种物质且数量惊人的人。
But I haven't specifically done research in that area.
但我还没有专门做过这方面的研究。
I'm not super well-versed on the literature.
我对文学不是很精通。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Yeah, I ask in part because maybe you know a colleague or will come across a colleague who's working on this.
是的，我问这个问题的部分原因是你可能认识一位同事，或者会遇到一位正在从事这项工作的同事。
Incredible increase in the use of things like Adderall, Ritalin-
阿得拉（Adderall）、利他林（Ritalin）等药物的使用量令人难以置信地增加——
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
Modafinil, Armodafinil, which I think in small amounts in clinically prescribed situations can be very beneficial.
莫达非尼、阿莫达非尼，我认为在临床处方情况下少量使用可能非常有益。
But let's be honest, many people are using these on a chronic basis.
但说实话，很多人都在长期使用这些产品。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I don't think we really know what it does to the brain-
我认为我们真的不知道它对大脑有什么作用-
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
No
否
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
aside from increasing addiction for those substances.
除了增加对这些物质的成瘾之外。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's very clear.
这非常清楚。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Well, for better or worse, we're generating a massive data set right now.
好吧，无论好坏，我们现在正在生成大量数据集。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well put.
说得好。
I'd like to briefly go back to our earlier discussion about neuroplasticity.
我想简单地回顾一下我们之前关于神经可塑性的讨论。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You made an interesting statement, which is that we are not aware of any single brain area that one can stimulate in order to invoke plasticity.
你做了一个有趣的陈述，那就是我们不知道任何一个大脑区域可以通过刺激来激发可塑性。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This malleability of neural architecture.
神经结构的可塑性。
Years ago, Mike Merzenich and colleagues at UCSF did some experiments where they stimulated nucleus basalis-
几年前，迈克·梅泽尼奇（Mike Merzenich）和加州大学旧金山分校的同事做了一些实验，他们刺激了基底核——
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Mm
毫米
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and paired that stimulation with an eight kilohertz tone.
并将这种刺激与八千赫兹的音调配对。
Or in some cases, they could also stimulate a different brain area, the ventral tegmental area, which causes the release of dopamine, and pair it with a tone.
或者在某些情况下，它们还可以刺激不同的大脑区域，即腹侧被盖区，从而释放多巴胺，并将其与音调配对。
And it seemed in every one of these cases, they observed massive plasticity.
似乎在每一个案例中，他们都观察到了巨大的可塑性。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Now, I look at those data, and I compare them to the kind of classic data, I think it was Karl Ashley that did these experiments where they would take animals and they'd scoop out a little bit of cortex, put the animal back into a learning environment, and the animal would do pretty well-
现在，我查看这些数据，并将它们与经典数据进行比较，我认为是卡尔·阿什利（Karl Ashley）做了这些实验，他们将动物拿走一点皮层，将动物放回学习环境中，动物会做得很好 -
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
if not perfectly.
如果不完美的话。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So they'd scoop out a different region of cortex in a different animal, and by the end of maybe three, four years of these kinds of lesion experiments, they referred to the equipotential of the cortex, meaning they concluded that it didn't matter which piece of the cortex you took out-
所以他们会在不同的动物身上挖出不同的皮层区域，在大约三四年的此类损伤实验结束时，他们提到了皮层的等电位，这意味着他们得出的结论是，你取出哪一块皮层并不重要——
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that there was no one critical area.
没有一个关键区域。
So on the one hand, you've got these experiments that say you don't really need a lot of the brain.
因此，一方面，这些实验表明你实际上并不需要太多的大脑。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And every once in a while, a news story will come out where a person will go in for a brain scan for some other reason or an experiment, and the person seems perfectly normal, and they're missing half their cortex.
每隔一段时间，就会出现一个新闻报道，一个人因为其他原因或实验而去接受脑部扫描，这个人看起来完全正常，他们的大脑皮层缺失了一半。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then on the other hand, you have these experiments like the stimulation of basalis or VTA, where you get massive plasticity from stimulation of one area.
另一方面，你可以进行这些实验，例如刺激基底肌或 VTA，通过刺激一个区域可以获得巨大的可塑性。
I've never been able to reconcile these kinds of discrepant findings, and so I'd really like just your opinion on this.
我从来无法调和这些不一致的发现，所以我真的很想听听你对此的看法。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What is it about the brain as an organ that lets it be both so critical at the level of individual neurons and circuits, so critical, and yet at the same time, it's able to circumvent these what would otherwise seem like massive lesions and holes-
大脑作为一个器官，它在单个神经元和回路层面上如此重要，但同时又能够规避这些看似巨大的病变和洞——
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in itself?
本身？
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
A lot of it, to reconcile those experiments, you first account for the fact that they're probably in different species, right?
为了协调这些实验，你首先要考虑到它们可能属于不同的物种，对吧？
You take out a particular portion of a pig or a rabbit brain, a small amount, you might not see a difference, but a small portion of a human brain, say, the part most interested in coordinating speech or finger movement, and you're going to see profound losses, or visual cortex, right?
你取出猪或兔子大脑的特定部分，少量，你可能看不到差异，但是人脑的一小部分，比如说，对协调言语或手指运动最感兴趣的部分，你会看到严重的损失，或者视觉皮层，对吗？
Take out a small portion of V1, and you'll have a visual deficit.
去掉 V1 的一小部分，你就会出现视力缺陷。
And so species matters.
所以物种很重要。
Age matters.
年龄很重要。
If you take out half of the brain in a very young baby, that baby has a reasonable chance of developing a high degree of function by having the remaining half subsume some of the functions lost on the other side.
如果你取出一个非常年幼的婴儿的一半大脑，那么通过让剩下的一半包含另一侧失去的一些功能，该婴儿就有合理的机会发展出高度的功能。
Because they're very young and their brain is still developing, it's to some degree a blank slate with extremely high plasticity over many years, so that can overcome a lot of deficits.
因为他们还很年轻，大脑还在发育，某种程度上是一张白板，多年来可塑性极高，所以可以克服很多缺陷。
Taking an adult animal's brain that isn't very well differentiated functionally to begin with, you might not see those deficits so apparently.
首先，以功能分化不太好的成年动物的大脑为例，你可能不会那么明显地看到这些缺陷。
There's a lot of redundancy as well, right?
还有很多冗余，对吗？
There's a lot of, say, cerebellar and spinal circuits in other animals that generate stereotyped behavior patterns and might not need the brain at all to perform, say, a walking movement or some other sequences of motor activities.
其他动物中有很多小脑和脊髓回路会产生刻板的行为模式，并且可能根本不需要大脑来执行步行运动或其他一些运动活动序列。
So, a lot of that depends on the experimental setup.
因此，这很大程度上取决于实验设置。
I would say in general, adult humans are very vulnerable to losing small parts of their brains and losing discrete functions.
我想说，一般来说，成年人非常容易失去大脑的一小部分并失去离散的功能。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm going to take the liberty of asking a question that merges across Neuralink and Tesla.
我将冒昧地问一个跨越 Neuralink 和 Tesla 的问题。
I could imagine that cars, whether or not they're on autopilot mode or being driven by the human directly, and society generally would benefit from knowing whether or not a human is very alert or sleepy.
我可以想象，汽车，无论是处于自动驾驶模式还是由人类直接驾驶，以及社会通常都会从了解人类是否非常警觉或困倦中受益。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I don't own a Tesla.
我没有特斯拉。
Perhaps this technology already exists, but is there any idea that a simple sensor, maybe even of just eyelid position or pupil size or head position-
也许这项技术已经存在，但是否有任何想法，一个简单的传感器，甚至可能只是眼睑位置或瞳孔大小或头部位置 -
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
could be introduced to a car like the Tesla or another car for that matter-
可以引入像特斯拉这样的汽车或其他汽车 -
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and resolve a common problem, which is that when people are less alert, not just when people fall asleep, but the simple drop in alertness that occurs when people are sleepy, my read of the data is responsible for approximately a third-
并解决一个常见的问题，即当人们的警觉性降低时，不仅仅是当人们入睡时，而是当人们犯困时发生的警觉性简单下降时，我对数据的读取负责大约三分之一 -
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
a third, it's incredible, of accidents between vehicles, and then, of course, some percentage of those are going to be lethal accidents.
令人难以置信的是，三分之一是车辆之间的事故，当然，其中一定比例将是致命事故。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Correct.
正确。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So in terms of preserving life, this might seem like-
所以就保护生命而言，这可能看起来像——
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
a minor case, but it's actually a major case scenario.
虽然是小案，但实际上是大案。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
I have no special insight into how Tesla software works.
我对特斯拉软件的工作原理没有特别的了解。
I know they have brilliant engineers.
我知道他们有出色的工程师。
I have a Tesla.
我有一辆特斯拉。
When I drive it, it seems to know when I'm looking at the road versus not, and it yells at me if I'm not looking at the road.
当我驾驶它时，它似乎知道我何时看路，何时不看路，如果我不看路，它就会对我大喊大叫。
So-
所以——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
How does it do that, and what voice does it use?
它是如何做到这一点的？它使用什么声音？
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
There's a small camera up by the rearview mirror, and I think it's a simple eye track.
后视镜旁有一个小摄像头，我认为这是一个简单的眼动轨迹。
My guess here is that it's a simple eye tracking program.
我的猜测是，这是一个简单的眼球追踪程序。
And so it may already be the case that it's implemented, that it's detecting whether your eyes are open or not.
所以它可能已经被实现了，它正在检测你的眼睛是否睁开。
Obviously, it's not strict, it's not stringent because sunglasses, and I've seen forums on the internet where people tape over that small camera.
显然，这并不严格，因为太阳镜并不严格，而且我在互联网上看到过论坛，人们用胶带粘住那个小相机。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So they can waltz.
这样他们就可以跳华尔兹了。
Goodness.
善良。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
But I think they're definitely making efforts to try to save lives here.
但我认为他们肯定正在努力拯救这里的生命。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Incredible.
难以置信。
I say incredible just because I think I'm fortunate enough to live in a lifetime where there were no electric cars when I was growing up, and now things are moving oh so fast, no pun intended.
我说令人难以置信只是因为我认为我很幸运能够生活在我成长过程中没有电动汽车的一生中，而现在事情进展得如此之快，没有双关语的意思。
What is your wish for brain-machine interface and brain augmentation?
您对脑机接口和大脑增强的愿望是什么？
So let's assume that the clinical stuff can be worked out, or maybe you have a pet clinical condition that you just are just yearning to see resolved.
因此，让我们假设临床问题可以得到解决，或者您可能有一种宠物临床病症，您只是渴望得到解决。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That would be fine, too.
那样也好。
But in addition to that, you really just expand out.
但除此之外，你实际上只是向外扩展。
Let's say we can extend your life 200 years, or we're thinking about the kind of world that your children are going to live in and their grandchildren will live in.
假设我们可以将您的寿命延长 200 年，或者我们正在考虑您的孩子和他们的孙辈将生活在什么样的世界中。
What do you think is really possible-
你认为什么是真正可能的——
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
with brain augmentation and brain-machine interface?
大脑增强和脑机接口？
And here, please feel no bias whatsoever to answer in a way that reveals to us your incredible empathy and consideration of clinical conditions, because that's how you spend your days, is fixing patients, and helping their lives be better.
在这里，请不要有任何偏见，以向我们展示您令人难以置信的同理心和对临床状况的考虑的方式回答，因为这就是您度过每一天的方式，治愈患者并帮助他们生活得更好。
So if it lands in that category, great.
因此，如果它属于这一类别，那就太好了。
But for sake of fun and for sake of delight, and for sake of really getting us, the audience, to understand what's really possible here-
但为了好玩，为了快乐，为了真正让我们观众了解这里真正可能发生的事情——
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
please feel no shackles.
请感受没有束缚。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Well, I love the idea down the road, and we're talking a 10-year, maybe 20-year timeframe of humans just getting control over some of the horrible ways that their brains go wrong, right?
嗯，我喜欢这个想法，我们正在谈论一个 10 年，也许 20 年的时间框架，让人类能够控制大脑中一些可怕的错误方式，对吗？
So I think everybody, at this point, has either known someone or second order known someone, a friend of a friend who has been touched by addiction or depression, suicide, obesity.
所以我认为，在这一点上，每个人要么认识一个人，要么认识第二个认识的人，一个朋友的朋友，他曾受到毒瘾或抑郁、自杀、肥胖的影响。
These functions of the brain or malfunctions of the brain are what drives me.
大脑的这些功能或大脑的故障是我的动力。
These are the things that I want to tackle in my career.
这些是我在职业生涯中想要解决的问题。
In terms of my kids' lifetime, I'm thinking full human expansion of human cognition into AI, full immersion in the internet of your cognitive abilities, having no limitation for what you think, as bottlenecked by needing to read the Wikipedia article first to have the data to inform your thoughts.
就我孩子的一生而言，我正在考虑将人类认知全面扩展到人工智能，将你的认知能力完全沉浸在互联网中，对你的想法没有任何限制，因为需要先阅读维基百科文章才能获得数据来告知你的想法，这是一个瓶颈。
Having communication with anyone that you want to, unrestricted by this flapping air past meat on your face.
与任何你想交流的人进行交流，不受这种拍打着脸上肉的空气的限制。
It's a means of communication that's ridiculously prone to being misunderstood.
这是一种很容易被误解的沟通方式。
It's also a tiny, narrow bottleneck of communication.
这也是一个微小而狭窄的沟通瓶颈。
We're trying to send messages back and forth through a tiny straw, and there's no reason that needs to necessarily be true.
我们试图通过一根小吸管来回发送消息，并且没有理由必须是真实的。
It's the way things have always been, but it isn't the way things are going to be in the future.
事情一直都是这样，但未来却不会这样。
And I think there's a million very sci-fi possibilities in terms of banding human minds together to be even more potent as a multi-unit organism, as an opt-in multi-brain.
我认为，将人类思想结合在一起，作为一个多单元有机体，作为一个选择加入的多大脑，存在着一百万种非常科幻的可能性。
These are things that are so far down the road, I can't even directly see how they would be implemented, but the technology we're working on is a little crack in the door that allows some of this stuff to even be thought about in a realistic way.
这些都是遥远的事情，我什至无法直接看到它们将如何实现，但我们正在研究的技术是一个小裂缝，允许以现实的方式思考其中的一些东西。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wow.
哇。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
To that point, I encourage anyone who is excited about things like that, especially mechanical engineers, software engineers, robotics engineers, come to the Neuralink website and look at the jobs we've got.
就这一点而言，我鼓励任何对此类事情感到兴奋的人，尤其是机械工程师、软件工程师、机器人工程师，访问 Neuralink 网站并查看我们提供的工作机会。
We need the brightest people on the planet working on these, the hardest problems in the world, in my opinion.
在我看来，我们需要地球上最聪明的人来解决这些世界上最困难的问题。
And so, if you want to work on this stuff, come help us.
因此，如果您想从事这方面的工作，请来帮助我们。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I have several responses to what you just said.
对于你刚才所说的话，我有几个回应。
First off, I'll get the least important one out of the way, which is that years ago, I applied for a job at Neuralink.
首先，我要说最不重要的一个，那就是几年前，我申请了 Neuralink 的一份工作。
The Neuralink website at that time was incredibly sparse.
当时的 Neuralink 网站极其稀疏。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It just said, "Neuralink," and it said, "If you're interested, give us your email." So I put my email there.
它只是说，“Neuralink”，然后说，“如果你有兴趣，请给我们你的电子邮件。”所以我把我的电子邮件放在那里。
I got no response.
我没有得到回应。
So-
所以——
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
they made a wise choice in-
他们做出了明智的选择——
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
A terrible error
一个可怕的错误
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
rejecting me.
拒绝我。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
A terrible loss.
一个可怕的损失。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Now, fast-forward several years, I am very grateful and I think very lucky that you, who passed through, fortunately for me, through my lab at one point, and we had some fun expeditions together in the wild neural exploration, so we can talk about it some other time, as well as learning from you as you passed through your time at Stanford.
现在，快进几年了，我非常感激，我认为你非常幸运，你曾经通过过我的实验室，对我来说幸运的是，我们在野外神经探索中一起进行了一些有趣的探险，所以我们可以在其他时间谈论它，以及在你在斯坦福大学度过的时光中向你学习。
But have arrived there at Neuralink, and I'll say that they're very lucky to have you, and folks like Dan Adams, who I've known for a very long time, so phenomenal neurosurgeons like yourself, neuroscientists, and vision scientists like Dan and others.
但是来到 Neuralink，我想说他们非常幸运有你，还有像丹·亚当斯这样的人，我认识他很久了，还有像你这样杰出的神经外科医生、神经科学家和像丹和其他人这样的视觉科学家。
It's really an incredible mission.
这确实是一个令人难以置信的使命。
So I really want to start off by saying thank you to you and all your colleagues there I know that Neuralink is really tip of the spear in being public-facing with the kinds of things they're doing and being so forthcoming about how that work is done in animals and exactly what they're doing.
因此，我首先要向你们和你们所有的同事表示感谢，我知道 Neuralink 确实是最先向公众展示他们正在做的事情的，并且非常乐意介绍这项工作是如何在动物身上完成的以及他们正在做什么。
And that's a very brave stance to take.
这是一个非常勇敢的立场。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Especially given the nature of the work, but-
特别是考虑到工作的性质，但是-
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Well, that's classic Elon, right?
嗯，这是经典的埃隆，对吧？
He doesn't keep secrets in public too commonly.
他通常不太在公共场合保守秘密。
He tells you what he's going to do, and then he does it, and people are always amazed by that.
他告诉你他要做什么，然后他就这么做了，人们总是对此感到惊讶。
He releases the Tesla master plan and tells you exactly what the company intends to do for the next several years.
他发布了特斯拉总体规划，并准确地告诉你该公司未来几年打算做什么。
And people assume that there's some subterfuge or that he is misdirecting, but it's right out there in the open, and I think Neuralink follows in that path of we want people to know what we're doing.
人们认为其中存在某种诡计或者他在误导，但事实是公开的，我认为 Neuralink 遵循的是我们希望人们知道我们在做什么的道路。
We want the brightest people in the world to come help us.
我们希望世界上最聪明的人来帮助我们。
We want to be able to help patients.
我们希望能够帮助患者。
We want the most motivated patients with quadriplegia to visit our patient registry and sign up to be considered for clinical trials that will happen in the future.
我们希望最积极的四肢瘫痪患者访问我们的患者登记处并报名参加未来将进行的临床试验。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We'll put a link to that, by the way.
顺便说一句，我们将放置一个链接。
So maybe just the direct call could happen now.
所以也许现在就可以直接打电话了。
So this is for people who are quadriplegic or who know people who are quadriplegic-
所以这是写给四肢瘫痪的人或认识四肢瘫痪的人的——
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
who are interested in being part of this clinical trial?
谁有兴趣参与这项临床试验？
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
It's a patient registry right now that we're just collecting information to see who might be eligible for clinical trials that'll happen in the future.
现在这是一个患者登记处，我们只是收集信息，看看谁有资格参加未来将进行的临床试验。
We're still working with the FDA to hammer out the details and get their final permission to proceed with the trial.
我们仍在与 FDA 合作敲定细节并获得他们的最终许可以继续进行试验。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Great.
太棒了。
So please see the link in the show note captions for that.
因此，请参阅显示注释标题中的链接。
Yeah, I want to thank you guys for your stance of being public-facing and also doing the incredibly hard work.
是的，我要感谢你们面向公众的立场以及所做的令人难以置信的艰苦工作。
I also think the robotics aspect, which you've clarified for me today, is extremely forward-thinking and absolutely critical.
我还认为，您今天为我澄清的机器人方面非常具有前瞻性，而且绝对至关重要。
So a lot of critical engineering that no doubt will wick out into other domains of neurosurgery and medical technology, not just-
因此，许多关键工程无疑将渗透到神经外科和医疗技术的其他领域，而不仅仅是——
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
serving Neuralink's mission directly.
直接服务于 Neuralink 的使命。
And I really want to thank you, first of all, for coming here today and taking time out of your important schedule of seeing patients and doing brain surgery, literally-
首先，我真的要感谢你们今天来到这里，从重要的日程中抽出时间去看病人和做脑部手术，从字面上看——
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Happy to do it
很高兴做这件事
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
time away from your family and time away from your mission at Neuralink briefly to share with people what you guys are doing.
暂时离开家人和离开 Neuralink 的使命，与人们分享你们正在做的事情。
As I mentioned before, there's a lot of mystique around it, and even despite the fact that Neuralink has gone out of their way to try and erase some of that mystique.
正如我之前提到的，它周围有很多神秘感，尽管 Neuralink 已经竭尽全力试图消除一些神秘感。
This, to me, is the clearest picture ever, to my knowledge, that has been given about what's going on there and the stated and the real mission and what's going on at the level of nuts and bolts and guts and brains and this kind of thing.
对我来说，据我所知，这是有史以来最清晰的画面，它描述了那里正在发生的事情、所声明的和真正的使命，以及在具体细节、内脏和大脑等层面上发生的事情。
And I really just want to thank you also for being you, which perhaps sounds like a kind of an odd thing to hear, but I think as made apparent by the device implanted in your hand, you don't just do this for a job.
我真的只是想感谢你做你自己，这可能听起来有点奇怪，但我认为正如植入在你手中的设备所表明的那样，你不仅仅是为了一份工作而这样做。
You live and breathe and embody, truly embody this stuff around the nervous system and trying to figure out how to fix it, how to make it better.
你生活、呼吸、体现，真正体现神经系统周围的这些东西，并试图找出如何修复它，如何让它变得更好。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And you live and breathe it, and I know your deep love for it.
你生活并呼吸着它，我知道你对它的热爱。
So I want to thank you for not just the brains that you put into it and the energy you put into it, but also for the heart that you put into it.
所以我要感谢你们，不仅感谢你们投入的智慧和精力，还要感谢你们投入的心。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Thanks for that, Andrew.
谢谢你，安德鲁。
I appreciate that.
我很欣赏这一点。
We just want to help people.
我们只是想帮助人们。
We want to make things better.
我们想让事情变得更好。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, I know that to be true, knowing you, and thank you again for coming here today, and I look forward to another round of discussion in whenever the time happens to be when these incredible technologies have spelled out to the next major milestone.
嗯，我知道这是真的，了解你们，再次感谢你们今天来到这里，我期待着在这些令人难以置信的技术阐明下一个重大里程碑的时候进行另一轮讨论。
Dr. Matthew MacDougall:
马修·麦克杜格尔博士：
Thank you.
谢谢你。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Matthew MacDougall, all about the human brain and how it functions, how it breaks down, and the incredible efforts that are being carried out at Neuralink in order to overcome diseases of brain and nervous system function and to augment how the human brain works.
感谢您参加今天与 Matthew MacDougall 博士的讨论，讨论的全部内容是人脑及其运作方式、分解方式，以及 Neuralink 为克服大脑和神经系统功能疾病以及增强人脑工作方式所做的令人难以置信的努力。
If you'd like to learn more about Dr. MacDougall's work and the specific work being done at Neuralink, please see the links that we've provided in the show note captions.
如果您想了解有关 MacDougall 博士的工作以及 Neuralink 正在进行的具体工作的更多信息，请参阅我们在节目注释标题中提供的链接。
If you're learning from and/or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel.
如果您正在学习和/或喜欢此播客，请订阅我们的 YouTube 频道。
That's a terrific zero-cost way to support us.
这是支持我们的绝佳零成本方式。
In addition, please subscribe to the podcast on Spotify and Apple.
此外，请订阅 Spotify 和 Apple 上的播客。
And in addition, on both Spotify and Apple, you can leave us up to a five-star review.
此外，在 Spotify 和 Apple 上，您都可以给我们留下五星级的评价。
If you have questions for me or topics you'd like me to cover on the Huberman Lab Podcast or guests that you'd like me to consider inviting on the Huberman Lab Podcast, please put that in the comments on YouTube.
如果您对我有疑问，或者希望我在 Huberman 实验室播客上介绍主题，或者希望我考虑邀请嘉宾参加 Huberman 实验室播客，请在 YouTube 上发表评论。
I do read all the comments.
我确实阅读了所有评论。
In addition, please check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode.
此外，请查看今天节目开头和整个节目中提到的赞助商。
That's the best way to support this podcast.
这是支持这个播客的最佳方式。
Not so much on today's episode, but on various previous episodes of the Huberman Lab Podcast, we discuss supplements.
今天的节目不多，但在 Huberman 实验室播客的前几集中，我们讨论了补充剂。
While supplements aren't necessary for everybody, many people derive tremendous benefit from them, for things like enhancing sleep, focus, and hormone support.
虽然补充剂并不是每个人都需要的，但许多人都从它们中获得了巨大的好处，例如增强睡眠、注意力和激素支持。
The Huberman Lab Podcast is proud to have partnered with Momentous Supplements.
Huberman 实验室播客很荣幸能与 Momentous Supplements 合作。
If you'd like to hear more about the supplements discussed on the Huberman Lab Podcast, please go to livemomentous, spelled O-U-S, dot com slash huberman.
如果您想了解有关 Huberman 实验室播客上讨论的补充剂的更多信息，请访问 livemomentous，拼写为 O-U-S，.com 斜线 huberman。
Again, that's livemomentous.com/huberman.
再说一遍，这是 livemomentous.com/huberman。
If you're not already following the Huberman Lab Podcast on social media, we are hubermanlab on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, and LinkedIn.
如果您还没有在社交媒体上关注 Huberman Lab 播客，请关注我们在 Instagram、Twitter、Facebook 和 LinkedIn 上的 hubermanlab。
And on all those places, I focus on material that somewhat overlaps with content from the Huberman Lab Podcast, but often is distinct from the content covered on the Huberman Lab Podcast.
在所有这些地方，我关注的材料与胡伯曼实验室播客的内容有些重叠，但通常与胡伯曼实验室播客中涵盖的内容不同。
So again, it's hubermanlab on all social media channels.
再说一次，所有社交媒体渠道上都是 hubermanlab。
For those of you that haven't already subscribed to our so-called Neural Network Newsletter, this is a completely zero-cost monthly newsletter that has summaries of podcast episodes and so-called toolkits.
对于那些还没有订阅我们所谓的神经网络通讯的人来说，这是一份完全零成本的每月通讯，其中包含播客剧集和所谓的工具包的摘要。
Toolkits are lists of about a page to two pages long that give the critical tools, for instance, for optimizing sleep or for neuroplasticity or deliberate cold exposure or deliberate heat exposure, optimizing dopamine.
工具包是大约一页到两页长的列表，提供了关键工具，例如，用于优化睡眠或神经可塑性或有意冷暴露或有意热暴露，优化多巴胺。
Again, all available to you at zero cost.
同样，所有这些都可以零成本提供给您。
You simply go to hubermanlab.com, go to the Menu tab in the corner, scroll down to Newsletter, you provide us your email.
您只需访问 hubermanlab.com，转到角落的“菜单”选项卡，向下滚动到新闻通讯，然后向我们提供您的电子邮件。
We do not share your email with anybody.
我们不会与任何人分享您的电子邮件。
And in addition to that, there are samples of toolkits on the hubermanlab.com website, again, under Newsletter, and you don't even have to sign up to access those.
除此之外，hubermanlab.com 网站上的新闻通讯下也有工具包示例，您甚至无需注册即可访问这些示例。
But I think most people do end up signing up for the newsletter because it's rich with useful information and, again, completely zero cost.
但我认为大多数人最终都会订阅时事通讯，因为它充满了有用的信息，而且完全是零成本。
Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Matthew MacDougall.
再次感谢您参加今天与 Matthew MacDougall 博士的讨论。
And last but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.
最后但并非最不重要的一点是，感谢您对科学的兴趣。