Dr. Matthew Johnson: Psychedelic Medicine
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.
欢迎来到休伯曼实验室播客，我们在这里讨论科学和基于科学的日常生活工具。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm Andrew Huberman and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.
我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。
Today I have the pleasure of introducing Dr. Matthew Johnson.
今天我很高兴向大家介绍马修·约翰逊博士。
Dr. Johnson is a professor of psychiatry at Johns Hopkins School of Medicine, where he also directs the Center for Psychedelics and Consciousness Research.
约翰逊博士是约翰霍普金斯大学医学院的精神病学教授，也是该学院迷幻药和意识研究中心的负责人。
As many of you know, there's extreme excitement about the use of psychedelics for the treatment of various disorders of the mind.
正如你们许多人所知，使用迷幻药来治疗各种精神疾病令人非常兴奋。
Dr. Johnson's laboratory is among the premier laboratories in the world understanding how these compounds work, how things like psilocybin and LSD and related compounds allow neural circuitry in the brain to be shaped and changed, such that people can combat diseases like depression or trauma or other disorders of the mind that cause tremendous suffering.
约翰逊博士的实验室是世界上最重要的实验室之一，它了解这些化合物如何发挥作用，以及裸盖菇素和迷幻剂以及相关化合物如何塑造和改变大脑中的神经回路，从而使人们能够对抗抑郁症、创伤或其他造成巨大痛苦的精神疾病。
Dr. Johnson is also an expert in understanding how different types of drugs impact different types of human behaviors, such as sexual behavior, risk-taking and crime.
约翰逊博士也是了解不同类型的药物如何影响不同类型的人类行为（例如性行为、冒险和犯罪）的专家。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Dr. Johnson and his work have also been featured prominently in the popular press, such as articles in The New York Times, in Michael Pollan's book "How to Change Your Mind," and in a feature in "60 Minutes" about psychedelics and the new emerging science of psychedelic therapies for treating mental disorders.
约翰逊博士和他的作品也在大众媒体上得到了显着报道，例如《纽约时报》、迈克尔·波伦的《如何改变你的想法》一书中的文章，以及《60 分钟》中有关迷幻药和治疗精神障碍的迷幻疗法的新兴科学的专题报道。
During the course of today's conversation, Dr. Johnson and I talk about psychedelics at the level of what's called microdosing, whether or not it is useful for the treatment of any mental disorders.
在今天的谈话中，约翰逊博士和我在所谓的微剂量水平上讨论了致幻剂，无论它是否对治疗任何精神障碍有用。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We also talk about more typical macro dosing, what those macrodoses entail, and he walks us through what an experiment of a patient taking psychedelics for the treatment of depression looks like in his laboratory from start to finish.
我们还讨论了更典型的宏观剂量，这些宏观剂量意味着什么，他向我们介绍了患者在他的实验室中服用致幻剂治疗抑郁症的实验从开始到结束的样子。
The conversation was an absolutely fascinating one for me to partake in.
对我来说，这次谈话绝对是一场令人着迷的谈话。
I learned so much about the past, present and future of psychedelic treatments and compounds, and indeed I hope to have Dr. Johnson on this podcast again in the not-too-distant future so that we can talk about other compounds that powerfully impact the mind and human behavior, and perhaps can also be used to treat various diseases.
我对迷幻疗法和化合物的过去、现在和未来了解了很多，事实上，我希望在不久的将来约翰逊博士能再次出现在这个播客中，这样我们就可以讨论其他对精神和人类行为有强大影响的化合物，也许也可以用于治疗各种疾病。
Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.
在开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero-cost-to-consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public.
然而，我的愿望和努力的一部分是将有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本消费者信息带给公众。
In keeping with that theme, I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast, and now my conversation with Dr. Matthew Johnson.
为了与这个主题保持一致，我要感谢今天播客的赞助商，以及现在我与马修·约翰逊博士的对话。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, Matthew, I've been looking forward to this for a long time.
嗯，马修，我期待这件事很久了。
I'm a huge fan of your scientific work, and I'm here to learn from you.
我是你的科学工作的超级粉丝，我来这里是为了向你学习。
So-
所以——
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
Likewise.
同样。
Big fan, and happy to do this with you.
大粉丝，很高兴和你一起做这件事。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
All right, well, thank you.
好的，好的，谢谢。
My first question is a very basic one, which is, What is a psychedelic?
我的第一个问题是一个非常基本的问题，即什么是迷幻剂？
We hear this term all the time, but what qualifies a substance as a psychedelic?
我们经常听到这个词，但是什么才算一种物质是致幻剂呢？
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
Nomenclature is a real challenge in this area of psychedelics.
命名法是迷幻药领域的一个真正的挑战。
So starting with the word "psychedelic," if you're a pharmacologist, it's not very satisfying, because that term really spans different pharmacological classes.
因此，如果你是一名药理学家，从“迷幻”这个词开始，这并不是很令人满意，因为这个术语确实涵盖了不同的药理学类别。
In other words, if you're really concerned about receptor effects and the basic effects of a compound, it spans several classes of compounds.
换句话说，如果您确实关心受体效应和化合物的基本效应，那么它涵盖了几类化合物。
But overall ...
但总体而言...
it's really more of a cultural term, or it does have a relationship to drug effects, but it's at a very high level.
它实际上更多的是一个文化术语，或者它确实与药物作用有关，但它处于非常高的水平。
So all of the so-called psychedelics across these distinct classes, that I can talk more about, the way I put it is, they all had the ability to profoundly alter one's sense of reality, and that can mean many things.
因此，我可以更多地谈论这些不同类别的所有所谓迷幻剂，用我的话说，它们都有能力深刻地改变一个人的现实感，这可能意味着很多事情。
Part of that is profoundly altering the sense of self acutely, so when someone's on the psychedelic ...
其中一部分是深刻地急剧改变自我意识，所以当某人处于迷幻状态时......
So the different classes that can be, the specific pharmacological classes that can be called a psychedelic are, one, what are called the classic psychedelics.
因此，可以被称为迷幻药的不同类别，可以被称为迷幻药的特定药理学类别，其一，被称为经典迷幻药。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
So in the literature, you'll see that term.
所以在文献中，你会看到这个术语。
Hallucinogen and psychedelic all have traditionally been used synonymously.
致幻剂和致幻剂传统上都是同义词。
I think there was a little of a tendency to stay away from psychedelics because of the baggage, but there's been a return to that in the last several years.
我认为，由于包袱的原因，人们有一点远离迷幻药的倾向，但在过去几年里，这种情况又回来了。
But the classic psychedelics, or classic hallucinogens, are things like LSD, psilocybin — which is in so-called magic mushrooms.
但经典的致幻剂或经典的致幻剂是LSD、裸盖菇素之类的东西——它们存在于所谓的迷幻蘑菇中。
It's in over 200 species that we know of so far of mushrooms.
迄今为止，我们所知道的蘑菇有 200 多种。
Dimethyltryptamine, or DMT, which is in dozens and dozens of plants.
二甲基色胺（DMT）存在于数十种植物中。
Mescaline which is in the peyote cacti and some other cacti, like San Pedro.
仙人掌仙人掌和其他一些仙人掌（如圣佩德罗）中含有麦斯卡林。
And even amongst these classic psychedelics, there are two structural, structural classes.
即使在这些经典的迷幻药中，也有两个结构性的类别。
So that's the chemistry.
这就是化学反应。
There the tryptamine-based compounds like psilocybin and DMT, and then there's the phenethylamine-based compounds.
有基于色胺的化合物，如裸盖菇素和 DMT，还有基于苯乙胺的化合物。
So these are the basic two building blocks that you're starting from, either a tryptamine structure or a phenethylamine structure.
因此，这些是您开始的两个基本构建块，色胺结构或苯乙胺结构。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
But that's just the chemistry.
但这只是化学反应。
What's more important, or at least to someone like me, are the receptor effects, and then, ultimately, that's going to have a relationship to the behavioral and subjective effects.
更重要的是，或者至少对像我这样的人来说，是受体效应，最终，这将与行为和主观效应有关。
So all of these classic psychedelics serve as agonist, or partial agonist, at the serotonin 2A receptor, so a subtype of serotonin receptor.
因此，所有这些经典迷幻药都充当血清素 2A 受体（血清素受体的一种亚型）的激动剂或部分激动剂。
Then you have these other classes of compounds that you could call psychedelic.
然后你就有了其他类别的化合物，你可以称之为迷幻剂。
Another big one would be the NMDA antagonist.
另一个重要的因素是 NMDA 拮抗剂。
So this would include ketamine, PCP and dextromethorphan, something I've done some research with which folks might recognize from like robotripping, guzzling cough syrup, which is something high-school kids are known to do when they can't get ahold of real drugs, that type of thing.
因此，这将包括氯胺酮、五氯苯酚和右美沙芬，我做了一些研究，人们可能会从机器人撕裂、狂饮止咳糖浆之类的东西中识别出来，这是众所周知的高中生在无法获得真正的药物时会做的事情，诸如此类的事情。
So a large overlap in the types of subjective effects that you get from those compounds compared to the 2A agonist classic psychedelics.
因此，与 2A 激动剂经典致幻剂相比，这些化合物产生的主观效果类型有很大重叠。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
But then you have ...
但然后你有...
And by the way, this description, this framework I'm describing, not everyone will agree.
顺便说一下，我所描述的这个描述、这个框架，并不是每个人都会同意。
Some people will say, no, psychedelic only means classic psychedelic.
有人会说，不，迷幻只是指经典迷幻。
So there's different opinions here.
所以这里有不同的意见。
But you have, gosh, salvinorin A, which is a kappa-opioid agonist, which again-
但是，天哪，salvinorin A，它是一种 κ 阿片类激动剂，它又-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Where does that come from?
这是从哪里来的？
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
Salvia divinorum, it's a plant that became ...
Salvia divinorum，这是一种植物......
20 years ago, it popped onto the 'legal high" scene, and there's a long history of this predating the Internet, going back to the stuff one could order in the back of High Times Magazine, and most of this stuff never worked.
20 年前，它突然出现在“合法的毒品”场景中，这种现象早在互联网出现之前就有了很长的历史，可以追溯到人们可以在《High Times》杂志后面订购的东西，而这些东西大多数都从未起作用。
Or it's like, just smoke enough of anything, maybe you get a little bit lightheaded.
或者就像是，只要吸够了任何东西，也许你就会有点头晕。
But this is one of those things that popped around 20 years ago, when it quickly got the reputation of like, "Holy shit, this stuff actually works," and works really strongly in these smoked extracts particularly, people have these reality-altering experiences on par with smoked DMT, the classic psychedelic.
但这是大约 20 年前出现的东西之一，当时它很快就获得了这样的声誉，“天哪，这东西真的有效”，而且在这些熏制提取物中尤其有效，人们拥有与熏制 DMT（经典迷幻剂）同等的改变现实的体验。
And we did the first blinded controlled human research with salvinorin A.
我们用 Salvinorin A 进行了首次盲对照人体研究。
So lots of entity contact.
所以有很多实体接触。
So feeling that you, in the experience of one is actually interacting with autonomous beings, that type of thing.
所以感觉你在一个人的经历中实际上是在与自主的存在互动，诸如此类的事情。
And then you have another big one, I probably should have mentioned even before the salvinorin A, but you have MDMA, which really stands in a class by itself.
然后你还有另一个大问题，我可能应该在萨尔维诺林 A 之前提到，但你有 MDMA，它确实是一个独立的类别。
So it's been called an entactogen, and-
所以它被称为诱生剂，而且-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What does that mean?
这意味着什么？
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
It means touching within.
意思是触及内心。
It alludes to the idea that it can really put someone in touch with their emotions.
它暗示了这样的想法：它确实可以让某人接触到他们的情感。
It's also been called an empathogen, meaning it can afford empathy.
它也被称为同理心，这意味着它可以产生同理心。
But I think entactogen's probably, that's the term that I tend to focus on.
但我认为诱生剂可能是我倾向于关注的术语。
I know I'm not telling you anything you don't know, but for the viewers, the primary mechanism of MDMA is serotonin release, and to a degree, other monoamine release: dopamine, serotonin.
我知道我不会告诉你任何你不知道的事情，但对于观众来说，摇头丸的主要机制是血清素释放，在某种程度上，其他单胺释放：多巴胺、血清素。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
And so structurally, that's also in the phenethylamine class, which contains mescaline, the classic psychedelic, but also amphetamine.
从结构上看，它也属于苯乙胺类，其中含有经典迷幻剂麦司卡林，但也含有安非他明。
So just like Adderall is in that phenethylamine class.
就像阿得拉属于苯乙胺类一样。
And so this is another example where chemistry doesn't dictate.
这是化学无法决定的另一个例子。
I mean, you can tweak a molecule, it might have that same basic structure, but now you've profoundly changed the way it interacts with the receptor.
我的意思是，你可以调整一个分子，它可能具有相同的基本结构，但现在你已经深刻地改变了它与受体相互作用的方式。
So in MDMA, it does not exert its actions by, I like to say, by mimicking the baseball entering the glove, the postsynaptic receptor side, acting as an agonist.
因此，在 MDMA 中，我想说，它并不是通过模仿棒球进入手套（即突触后受体侧）来发挥作用，充当激动剂。
So mimicking the endogenous neurotransmitter serotonin, like the classic psychedelics do.
因此模仿内源性神经递质血清素，就像经典的致幻剂一样。
MDMA works on the pitcher side of just basically throwing out more of the natural, the endogenous-
MDMA 在投手一侧发挥作用，基本上只是抛出更多自然的、内源性的——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Dumping more serotonin.
倾倒更多的血清素。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
...
...
dumping, more serotonin, flooding the synapse.
倾倒，更多的血清素，淹没突触。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So I get the impression that the psychedelic space is an enormous cloud of partially overlapping compounds, meaning some are impacting the serotonin system more than the dopamine system, others are impacting the dopamine system more than the serotonin system.
所以我的印象是，迷幻空间是一个由部分重叠的化合物组成的巨大云，这意味着有些化合物对血清素系统的影响大于多巴胺系统，另一些对多巴胺系统的影响大于血清素系统。
Given that the definition of a psychedelic is that it profoundly alters sense of self, at least that's included as a partial definition, can we break that down into a couple of subcategories?
鉴于迷幻药的定义是它深刻地改变了自我意识，至少作为部分定义包括在内，我们可以将其分为几个子类别吗？
So for instance, hallucinating, either auditory or visual; synesthesia, perceptual blending, the sense that you can hear colors and see sounds, for instance.
例如，幻觉，无论是听觉还是视觉；例如，联觉、知觉混合、你能听到颜色和看到声音的感觉。
A common report of people that take psychedelics in sufficiently high doses.
一份关于服用足够高剂量迷幻药的人的常见报告。
So hallucinating, synesthesia.
所以产生幻觉，联觉。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then in terms of sense of self, as a neuroscientist, I think, Okay, what does it mean to alter a sense of reality?
然后就自我意识而言，作为一名神经科学家，我想，好吧，改变现实感意味着什么？
Really, what the brain does, in a very coarse way, is to try and figure out what's happening in space, physical space, and that physical space could be within us or outside us, and what's happening in time.
实际上，大脑所做的，以一种非常粗略的方式，是试图弄清楚空间、物理空间中正在发生什么，而物理空间可能在我们内部或外部，以及时间中正在发生什么。
As a vision scientist, the simplest explanation is, when I move my hand from one location to another location, it's measuring the space, the location of my hand in space over time, and then you get a rate, and your speed, and all that kind of stuff, right?
作为一名视觉科学家，最简单的解释是，当我将手从一个位置移动到另一个位置时，它会测量空间，随着时间的推移，我的手在空间中的位置，然后你会得到一个速率，你的速度，以及所有类似的东西，对吧？
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That gets more complicated as you get into the emotional realm.
当你进入情感领域时，情况会变得更加复杂。
But is it fair to say that psychedelics are impacting the space-time analysis that the brain is performing, and thereby creating hallucinations, and thereby altering the blending of senses; is it fair to say that?
但是，可以公平地说，致幻剂正在影响大脑正在执行的时空分析，从而产生幻觉，从而改变感官的混合吗？这样说公平吗？
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
I think it's fair to explore that area.
我认为探索该地区是公平的。
Here's what I'm thinking.
这就是我的想法。
Clearly, there is a changed relationship, certainly at the right dose, of orientation in space-time.
显然，时空方向的关系发生了变化，当然是在适当的剂量下。
I'm primarily a behaviorist, and in terms of human behavioral pharmacology, and I always go to comparative pharmacology.
我主要是一个行为主义者，在人类行为药理学方面，我总是研究比较药理学。
What can we say that is truly unique about the classic psychedelic, or psychedelics in general.
我们能说经典迷幻药或一般迷幻药的真正独特之处是什么？
So with that description, I'm thinking, okay, alcohol can really screw up your time-space orientation.
因此，根据这个描述，我在想，好吧，酒精确实会扰乱你的时空取向。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And the proprioception, your balance, your vestibular.
还有本体感觉、平衡、前庭。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
Proprioception.
本体感觉。
And in many ways, and in those gross motorways, like far worse, of course everything's dose-dependent, but in the classic psychedelics, obviously, the benzodiazepines being very similar to alcohol, same thing.
在很多方面，在那些粗糙的高速公路上，更糟糕的是，当然一切都依赖于剂量，但在经典迷幻药中，显然，苯二氮卓类药物与酒精非常相似，是同一件事。
So I'd want to dig in a little more, in terms of, like, maybe there's something more specific we could say about that relationship to time and space that the psychedelics are tinkering with, but I'm not sure; it's an interesting hypothesis, the idea that that's a mediator, that there's fundamental about changing the representation in time and in space; there might be something to that.
所以我想更深入地探讨一下，比如，也许我们可以说一些更具体的东西，关于迷幻剂正在修补的与时间和空间的关系，但我不确定；这是一个有趣的假设，认为这是一个中介者，改变时间和空间的表征具有根本性；这可能是有原因的。
I think of these as, psychedelics, as profoundly altering models.
我认为这些是迷幻药，是深刻改变模型的。
We're prediction machines, and so much of that is top-down, and psychedelics have a good way of, loosely speaking, dissolving those models.
我们是预测机器，其中很多都是自上而下的，而迷幻剂有一种很好的方法，宽泛地说，可以溶解这些模型。
One of the, the reality-
其中之一，现实——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Can you give us an example of one of, like a model?
您能给我们举一个例子吗？比如模型？
I know that when I throw a ball in the air, it falls down, not up.
我知道当我把球扔到空中时，它会向下落，而不是向上。
That's a prediction that I learned as a child.
这是我小时候学到的预测。
I did not come into the world with a brain that knew that relationship between objects and gravity.
我来到这个世界上时，大脑并不知道物体与重力之间的关系。
But one of the first things that a child learns is the relationship between objects and gravity and their trajectories.
但孩子首先要学习的事情之一是物体与重力及其轨迹之间的关系。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
And with a four-year-old, I mean, I saw that at earlier ages, like that experimentation of "Oh yeah, that's what happens."
我的意思是，对于一个四岁的孩子，我在早期就看到了这一点，就像“哦，是的，这就是发生的事情”的实验。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So if a child were to throw a ball, and it went up into the sky, that would be absolutely mind-blowing; it would be for an adult too.
因此，如果一个孩子扔一个球，它飞向天空，那绝对是令人兴奋的；这也适合成年人。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
It'd be a pretty psychedelic experience, probably.
也许这将是一次相当迷幻的体验。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
And so there's a rule there.
所以那里有一个规则。
You're saying there's a prediction.
你说有一个预测。
There's a rule that underlies a prediction, that when that rule is violated, all of a sudden the circuit, presumably, for that prediction would go ...
预测背后有一条规则，当该规则被违反时，突然之间，该预测的电路就会发生变化……
it doesn't have a mind of its own.
它没有自己的想法。
It's somehow it creates a surprise element or a recognition element.
它以某种方式创造了一个惊喜元素或一个识别元素。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
Yeah.
是的。
It's not filtered out.
它没有被过滤掉。
This might sound extreme, but there are these cases, it was overblown in the propaganda of the late '60s, early '70s, but there are credible cases of people, and it's very atypical of, sounds like they really thought they could fly, and jump out of a window.
这可能听起来很极端，但有这些案例，在 60 年代末、70 年代初的宣传中被夸大了，但也有可信的人案例，而且非常不典型，听起来他们真的认为自己可以飞，然后跳出窗外。
Now, far more people every year fall.
现在，每年跌倒的人都要多得多。
I mean, who knows-
我的意思是，谁知道——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sure.
当然。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
They fall and die out of, from height because they're drunk.
他们因为喝醉而从高处坠落身亡。
So this is extremely rare, but there are some pretty convincing cases.
所以这种情况极其罕见，但也有一些相当有说服力的案例。
There was one research volunteer in our studies that, she looked like she was — in one of our studies, she was trying to dive through a painting on the wall.
在我们的一项研究中，有一位研究志愿者，她看起来就像是——在我们的一项研究中，她正试图潜入墙上的一幅画。
She was fine, but she ...
她很好，但她...
Reviewing the video, it looked like she really thought that she was going to go through that painting, and who knows?
回顾视频，看起来她真的以为她要浏览那幅画，谁知道呢？
You know what I mean.
你知道我的意思。
So she was into the other dimension.
所以她进入了另一个维度。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, so they're violating these predictions.
是的，所以他们违反了这些预测。
Yeah, the reason I asked the question the way I did is because given the enormous cloud of different substances, and given the range of previous experiences that people show up to a psychedelic experience with, I feel like the ability to extract some universal themes is useful, especially for people who haven't done them before, who might not have an understanding of what their effects are like.
是的，我之所以这样问，是因为考虑到不同物质的巨大云彩，以及考虑到人们表现出迷幻体验的先前经历的范围，我觉得提取一些普遍主题的能力是有用的，特别是对于以前没有做过这些事情的人来说，他们可能不了解它们的效果是什么样的。
Can we just briefly touch on the serotonin system and the dopamine system?
我们可以简单地谈谈血清素系统和多巴胺系统吗？
I want to acknowledge that, as you already know, that there are many neuromodulator systems in the body, and the opioid systems, cannabinoid systems.
我想承认，正如您所知，体内有许多神经调节系统，以及阿片类系统、大麻素系统。
But there's something so profound about the serotonin system and the dopamine system, because the way I define a neuromodulator is, it's a modulator, it changes the way that other circuits behave, and essentially, it increases the probability that certain circuits will be active and decreases the probability that other circuits will be active, in a general sense.
但血清素系统和多巴胺系统有一些非常深刻的东西，因为我定义神经调节剂的方式是，它是一种调节剂，它改变其他电路的行为方式，本质上，它增加了某些电路活跃的概率，并降低了其他电路活跃的概率，一般意义上。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So compounds like LSD, like lysergic acid diethylamide, and psilocybin, my understanding is that they primarily target this serotonin system.
因此，像LSD这样的化合物，如麦角酸二乙酰胺和裸盖菇素，我的理解是它们主要针对这种血清素系统。
How do they do that, at a general level, and why would increasing the activity of a particular serotonin receptor or batch of serotonin receptors lead to these profoundly different experiences that we're calling model challenges, challenging pre-existing models and predictions?
在一般水平上，他们是如何做到这一点的？为什么增加特定血清素受体或一批血清素受体的活性会导致这些截然不同的体验，我们称之为模型挑战，挑战预先存在的模型和预测？
I mean, at the end of the day, it's a chemical, and these receptors are scattered around the brain with billions of other receptors.
我的意思是，归根结底，它是一种化学物质，这些受体与数十亿其他受体一起分散在大脑周围。
What do we think is going on in a general sense?
我们认为一般意义上正在发生什么？
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
Yeah, and this is really the area of active exploration, and we don't have great answers.
是的，这确实是一个正在积极探索的领域，但我们还没有很好的答案。
We know a good amount about the receptor-level pharmacology, some things about postreceptor signaling pathways.
我们对受体水平的药理学以及受体后信号通路的一些知识了解很多。
In other words, just fitting into the receptor.
换句话说，只是适应受体。
Clearly, serotonin itself is not psychedelic, or else we'd be tripping, all of us all the time.
显然，血清素本身并不具有迷幻作用，否则我们所有人都会被绊倒。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because when I eat a bagel, I get serotonin release.
因为当我吃百吉饼时，我会释放血清素。
I mean, there's ...
我的意思是，有...
or turkey, the tryptophan ...
或者火鸡，色氨酸......
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
`
`
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
My understanding of serotonin is that in very broad strokes, that it generally leads to a state of being fairly ...
我对血清素的理解是，从广义上讲，它通常会导致一种相当……的状态。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It pushes the mind and body towards a state of contentment within the immediate experience.
它推动身心在即时体验中达到满足的状态。
Whereas the dopamine system really places us into an external view of what's out there in the world and what's possible.
而多巴胺系统确实让我们以外部视角看待世界上的事物和可能性。
Is that fair to say?
这么说公平吗？
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
Yeah.
是的。
The need to do something.
需要做某事。
I mean, that's consistent with my understanding.
我的意思是，这符合我的理解。
And I'll, certainly not in terms of ...
我当然不会……
I don't primarily identify as a neuroscientist.
我主要不认为自己是神经科学家。
So I definitely tell the viewers that we're far more in your domain here than mine.
所以我明确地告诉观众，我们在你们的领域里比在我的领域里更重要。
But in terms of how psychedelics and other drugs interface at the neuroscience level.
但就迷幻药和其他药物如何在神经科学层面相互作用而言。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, feel free to explain it at the experiential level.
好吧，请随意从经验层面进行解释。
I mean it doesn't have ...
我的意思是它没有...
I think there probably are some audience members that are interested in, is it the 5-H2C, is it the layer 5 neurons and cortex?
我想可能有一些观众感兴趣，是5-H2C，还是第5层神经元和皮质？
That conversation we could hold, and that's an interesting conversation.
我们可以进行这样的谈话，这是一次有趣的谈话。
But just in terms of the experience of serotonergic versus dopaminergic drugs, they do seem to create distinct classes of experience.
但仅就血清素能药物与多巴胺能药物的体验而言，它们似乎确实创造了不同类别的体验。
So I think that's the appropriate level for us to discuss them.
所以我认为这是我们讨论它们的适当级别。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
And in terms of how they ...
就他们如何...
I'd like to explore the biology a little bit here and tell you what's known, and what some of the ideas are.
我想在这里稍微探讨一下生物学，并告诉您已知的内容以及一些想法。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Please.
请。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
You have this path, as you know, these are levels of analysis, and it's not which one is going on.
正如您所知，您有这条道路，这些是分析的级别，而不是正在进行哪一个。
It's almost, like, for the particular question, which level of analysis is most appropriate, is it a question best addressed by the biology, the chemistry, or the physics?
几乎就像，对于特定的问题，哪种分析水平最合适，这是生物学、化学还是物理学最能解决的问题？
That's how I think of receptor-level postreceptor signaling downstream effects on other neurotransmitters, and then activation-level effects, and then coordination of activation.
这就是我对受体水平后受体信号下游对其他神经递质的影响的看法，然后是激活水平的影响，然后是激活的协调。
So you've got, clearly with the classic psychedelics, the 2A activation.
所以你显然已经有了经典迷幻药的 2A 激活。
We do know that there are downstream effects in terms of increasing glutamate transmission.
我们确实知道，增加谷氨酸传输会产生下游效应。
So this is likely a commonality, why ketamine is very psychedelic in a slightly different way, but ...
所以这可能是一个共性，为什么氯胺酮以稍微不同的方式非常迷幻，但是......
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do people hallucinate on ketamine?
人们服用氯胺酮会产生幻觉吗？
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
Yes.
是的。
It's more dissociative.
它更加分离。
So someone is more likely to be less behaviorally active.
因此，某人的行为更有可能不太活跃。
If they have a really high dose, they go into a K-Hole.
如果它们的剂量非常高，它们就会进入 K 孔。
If they go in a really high dose, you get in K-Hole.
如果它们的剂量非常高，你就会陷入 K-Hole。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's called a K-hole
这就是所谓的K孔
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
...
...
unconscious.
无意识的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Not an A-Hole, but a K-Hole.
不是 A 孔，而是 K 孔。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
A K-Hole.
一个 K 孔。
Yeah.
是的。
That is very different.
这是非常不同的。
The K-Hole, and ketamine's interesting because people can take bumps and dance on it with the, sort of an alcohol-level strength of an effect, the classic kind of raving use of it.
K-Hole 和氯胺酮很有趣，因为人们可以在其上颠簸并跳舞，其效果类似于酒精水平的强度，这是对它的经典使用方式。
But then those folks want to titrate their dose because if they do more of a like a line, you get up to 75, 100 milligrams.
但随后这些人想要滴定剂量，因为如果他们做得更多，就像一条线，你会得到 75、100 毫克。
Then you're talking about ...
那么你说的是...
If you're on the dance floor, you're on the floor, and your friends are trying to make sure people aren't stepping on you.
如果你在舞池里，你就在地板上，你的朋友会努力确保人们不会踩到你。
So that's like the K-hole ...
所以这就像K孔......
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Why would somebody want to take a dissociative anesthetic?
为什么有人想要接受解离麻醉剂？
To me, it's completely mysterious as to why someone will want to dissociate from their body.
对我来说，为什么有人想要脱离自己的身体是完全神秘的。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
People claim that these NMDA antagonist psychedelics are extremely insightful in a very similar way to the experiences with the classic psychedelics.
人们声称这些 NMDA 拮抗剂迷幻药非常有洞察力，与经典迷幻药的体验非常相似。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Ketamine is now legal for therapeutic use.
氯胺酮现已合法用于治疗用途。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
Right.
对。
Spravato, the intranasal form marketed by Janssen, which is esketamine, one of the-
Spravato，由杨森（Janssen）销售的鼻内形式，它是艾氯胺酮，是一种-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's a prescription.
这是处方。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
Yeah, it's a prescription.
是的，这是处方。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So people are taking in the nasal spray, and then are they undergoing talk therapy while they're doing it?
那么人们在使用鼻喷雾剂时，他们在使用时是否接受了谈话治疗？
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
Typically not.
通常不会。
So this is very interesting, and there's so much work that needs to be done.
所以这非常有趣，而且还有很多工作需要完成。
It's not treated as psychedelic therapy.
它不被视为迷幻疗法。
And by that psychedelic therapy, I mean you tell the person they're going to have an altered experience, you tell them to pay attention to that experience, that they might learn something from that experience, and afterwards you discuss that experience.
通过迷幻疗法，我的意思是你告诉人们他们将有一个改变的经历，你告诉他们要注意那个经历，他们可能会从那个经历中学到一些东西，然后你讨论那个经历。
With Sprovato, the model is-
对于 Sprovato，模型是-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sprovato is.
斯普罗瓦托是。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
...
...
is esketamine.
是艾氯胺酮。
It's the spray form of ketamine.
这是氯胺酮的喷雾形式。
It's been FDA-approved for treatment-resistant depression.
它已获得 FDA 批准用于治疗难治性抑郁症。
But you'll probably feel different, ignore that, that's a side effect, that's an adverse effect, just ignore it.
但你可能会有不同的感觉，忽略它，这是副作用，这是不利的影响，忽略它即可。
We don't think that has anything to do with the way it works.
我们认为这与其工作方式没有任何关系。
But just get this thing, it's a direct chemotherapeutic effect, in a sense.
但是拿到这个东西，从某种意义上说，它是直接的化疗效果。
It's not facilitating a learning process.
它不利于学习过程。
Now there's older work.
现在有较旧的工作。
There was a guy, Krupitsky, in Russia that did extensive work with higher doses of ketamine; I should say Sprovato at the prescribed doses isn't very ...
俄罗斯有一个叫克鲁皮茨基的人，他用高剂量的氯胺酮进行了大量的研究；我应该说，规定剂量的 Sprovato 并不是很......
It's a pretty low dose.
这是一个相当低的剂量。
It's in the mild psychedelic range, but it's not very strong.
它属于轻度迷幻范围，但不是很强。
But this older work that happened in the '90s and early 2000s, in Russia, they were using very high doses, and treating it like a psychedelic, treating it as if it was a psychedelic therapy, in other words, telling people, you're going to have this experience, we're hoping you learn something from it.
但是这项较旧的工作发生在90年代和2000年代初，在俄罗斯，他们使用了非常高的剂量，并将其视为迷幻剂，将其视为迷幻疗法，换句话说，告诉人们，你将有这种经历，我们希望你从中学到一些东西。
We're going to help you through it.
我们将帮助您度过难关。
We're going to discuss it afterwards.
我们稍后再讨论。
They found incredibly high rates of success, and some pretty well-controlled trials for both heroin addiction and alcohol addiction.
他们发现成功率非常高，并且针对海洛因成瘾和酒精成瘾进行了一些控制良好的试验。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
So I think a whole lot of work needs to be done now.
所以我认为现在需要做很多工作。
And you see some of the ketamine clinics that are using ketamine off-label, a lot of them aren't treating it like psychedelic therapy.
你会看到一些氯胺酮诊所在标签外使用氯胺酮，其中很多诊所并没有将其视为迷幻疗法。
There's, essentially, no research at this point on that.
目前基本上还没有这方面的研究。
Do you get better results?
你得到更好的结果吗？
Straight up use of Sprovato.
直接使用 Sprovato。
There's some good variability, but its antidepressant effects last about a week.
有一些良好的可变性，但其抗抑郁作用可持续大约一周。
But they kick in immediately.
但他们立即开始行动。
Now a week is a long time for most psychiatric drugs, you take it every day.
现在对于大多数精神科药物来说，一周已经很长了，你每天都服用。
So that's amazing.
所以这太棒了。
But it's still just a week.
但现在还只是一周。
We're seeing effects, a year, or more later, with psilocybin and some of the classic psychedelics.
一年或更长时间后，我们看到了裸盖菇素和一些经典致幻剂的效果。
That could be a pharmacological difference.
这可能是药理学差异。
Or it could be that they get a lot more mileage out of ketamine if they treated it like psychedelic therapy, and so that's some work ...
或者，如果他们像迷幻疗法一样对待氯胺酮，他们可能会从氯胺酮中获得更多的效果，所以这是一些工作......
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What would that look like?
那会是什么样子？
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
Really, just like our psilocybin sessions, which I know I haven't described, but briefly, you have anywhere from four to eight hours of preparation, getting to know the people who are going to be the guides or the therapists in the room Andrew Huberman:
真的，就像我们的裸盖菇素课程一样，我知道我没有描述过，但简单地说，你有四到八个小时的准备时间，去了解将成为房间里的导游或治疗师的人安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, maybe you could walk us through this.
是的，也许你可以引导我们解决这个问题。
So, let's say I were to come to one of your clinical trials, because these are clinical trials, at your lab at Hopkins, and would I need to be depressed, or could I just be somebody who wanted to explore psychedelics?
那么，假设我要参加你们的一项临床试验，因为这些是在你们位于霍普金斯大学的实验室进行的临床试验，我是否需要感到沮丧，或者我可能只是想探索迷幻药？
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
We've had studies for all of these, and a number of other disorders.
我们对所有这些疾病以及许多其他疾病进行了研究。
So healthy, "normal studies," that's the code for not a problem to fix, but we're all here ...
如此健康的“正常研究”，这就是不需要解决的问题的代码，但我们都在这里......
That's what amazing about psychedelics though, because if you administer them under this model, and you develop a relationship, and give a high dose of psychedelic, you can be a healthy normal without a diagnosable issue, but man, we're all human, and the issues seem to come to the surface.
这就是迷幻药的神奇之处，因为如果你在这种模式下使用它们，并且建立了一种关系，并给予高剂量的迷幻药，你可以成为一个健康的正常人，没有可诊断的问题，但是伙计，我们都是人类，问题似乎就会浮出水面。
But we've done work with smoking cessation, so people trying to quit tobacco, and haven't been successful.
但我们已经做了戒烟工作，所以人们试图戒烟，但没有成功。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So variety of reasons.
原因多种多样。
So maybe I'll just ask some very simple questions that would step us through the process.
所以也许我只会问一些非常简单的问题来引导我们完成整个过程。
So let's say I were to sign up for one of these trials, and I qualified for one of these trials.
假设我要报名参加其中一项试验，并且我有资格参加其中一项试验。
I'd show up, you said I would do several hours in advance of getting to know the team that would be present during this psychedelic journey.
我会出现，你说过我会提前几个小时来了解这次迷幻之旅中将出现的团队。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
First there's screening.
首先是筛选。
So it's like a couple of days of both psychiatric, like structured psychiatric interviews about your past and symptoms across the DSM, the psychiatric bible, to see if you might have various disorders that could disqualify you.
因此，这就像为期几天的精神科检查，就像根据 DSM（精神科圣经）对您的过去和症状进行结构化的精神科访谈，看看您是否患有各种可能使您失去资格的疾病。
The main ones being the psychotic disorders, schizophrenia, and we're also including bipolar.
主要是精神障碍、精神分裂症，我们还包括双相情感障碍。
So the manic side of bipolar.
所以双相情感障碍的狂躁的一面。
Also cardiovascular screening heart disease.
还有心血管检查心脏病。
After that screening, then the preparation where you get ...
筛选之后，然后就是准备工作......
You develop a therapeutic rapport with the people who are going to be in the room with you, your guides, but you're also then didactically explained about what the psychedelic could be like.
你与将要和你一起在房间里的人、你的向导建立了一种治疗融洽的关系，但随后你也会得到关于迷幻剂可能是什么样子的说教性解释。
That's a laundry list because they're more known by their variability than ...
这是一份详细清单，因为它们的可变性比……更广为人知。
It's not like cocaine: You're going to feel stimulated, you're going to feel like you know can do any ...
它不像可卡因：你会感到刺激，你会觉得你知道可以做任何事......
Or alcohol: You're probably going to feel more relaxed.
或者酒精：你可能会感觉更放松。
I call them uppers, downers, and all-rounders, and the psychedelics are all around us.
我称他们为上层者、下层者和全能者，迷幻剂就在我们身边。
It's like, Yeah, you could have the most beautiful experience of your life or the most terrifying experience of your life.
就像，是的，你可能会经历一生中最美好的经历，也可能经历一生中最可怕的经历。
So it's just kind of laundry list of the things that could happen, so there's no surprises.
所以这只是可能发生的事情的清单，所以没有什么意外。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think it's so important for people to hear because all-rounders, you really can't predict how somebody is going to react internally.
我认为这对人们来说非常重要，因为对于全能者来说，你真的无法预测某人的内心反应。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I want to just briefly touch on something because we left that topic, but it occurred to me that a lot of these effects of psychedelics and how they function, et cetera, is still very mysterious.
我想简单地谈谈一些事情，因为我们离开了这个话题，但我突然想到，迷幻药的许多效果以及它们的作用方式等等仍然非常神秘。
But then I recall to mind that how most prescription antidepressants work is also very mysterious.
但后来我想起大多数处方抗抑郁药的作用原理也非常神秘。
They increase serotonin or dopamine or epinephrine, et cetera.
它们会增加血清素、多巴胺或肾上腺素等。
But why they take weeks on in, several weeks to kick in, et cetera, is also mysterious.
但为什么它们需要数周、数周才能生效等等，这也是个谜。
But going back to the experience of coming to your laboratory, okay, so let's say that somebody passes all the prerequisites, and it's the day, it comes the day that they're going to have this experience.
但是回到来到实验室的经历，好吧，假设有人通过了所有先决条件，那一天，他们将获得这种经历的那一天到来了。
Are they eating mushrooms, like you hear about, or are they taking it in capsule form?
他们是像你听说的那样吃蘑菇，还是以胶囊的形式服用蘑菇？
And what sorts of doses are you prescribing?
您开的处方是什么剂量？
Is there a dose-response curve?
有剂量反应曲线吗？
And then secondary to that, I'd like to talk about microdose versus macrodose.
其次，我想谈谈微剂量与大剂量。
So how do people receive it and how do they get it into their body?
那么人们如何接收它以及如何将其进入体内呢？
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
So they receive pure psilocybin.
所以他们接受纯裸盖菇素。
So the mushroom and there are many species, the most ...
那么蘑菇的种类有很多，最...
People have taken mushrooms in the United States, most likely Psilocybe cubensis, they're easy to grow, they grow in cow paddies.
人们在美国采摘了蘑菇，很可能是古巴裸盖菇，它们很容易种植，生长在牛田里。
It's easy for anybody to grow them in their closet.
任何人都可以轻松地将它们种植在衣柜里。
It doesn't take a 1000-watt, light like cannabis.
它不像大麻那样需要 1000 瓦的光。
It takes a little 10-watt light bulb and a Tupperware bin.
它需要一个 10 瓦的小灯泡和一个特百惠垃圾箱。
So those are the types of mushrooms that people typically take.
这些是人们通常食用的蘑菇类型。
We're not administering those.
我们不管理这些。
Psilocybin is the compound.
裸盖菇素是一种化合物。
You could draw a molecule, psilocybin, again, based on the tryptamine structure.
您可以根据色胺结构再次绘制一个分子，裸盖菇素。
That's a single molecular entity.
那是一个单一的分子实体。
So it's a white powder.
所以它是白色粉末。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Does it look like serotonin molecularly?
它的分子结构看起来像血清素吗？
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
Yes, yes, yes.
是的，是的，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So if I were to show people the chemical structure of serotonin, the chemical structure of psilocybin, it would look quite similar.
因此，如果我向人们展示血清素的化学结构，裸盖菇素的化学结构，它们看起来会非常相似。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
Right, right.
对，对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So they're basically taking serotonin,
所以他们基本上服用血清素
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
A modified version of serotonin, which makes sense.
血清素的改良版本，这是有道理的。
But then, again, this repeated theme of the chemistry doesn't always neatly line up, because mescaline, it looks more like dopamine than it does serotonin, but yet at the receptor activation level, the pharmacological effect, those are similar, but, yeah, what it does at the receptor is an alternate ...
但话又说回来，这种重复的化学主题并不总是整齐地排列在一起，因为麦斯卡林，它看起来更像多巴胺而不是血清素，但在受体激活水平、药理作用上，这些都是相似的，但是，是的，它在受体上的作用是另一种......
It's hitting the same switch, but then having an alternate response at the receptor level.
它击中了同一个开关，但随后在受体水平上产生了替代反应。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So for people that don't necessarily understand the relationship between what we call ligand, the thing that parks in the receptor, and the receptor is the parking spot.
因此，对于那些不一定了解我们所说的配体（停在受体中的东西）和受体就是停放点之间关系的人来说。
One of the reasons that you can get such a variety of effects from different compounds is, for instance, serotonin might affect a certain pathway at a particular rate, and psilocybin might trigger activation of different components of that pathway, different rates since you can get vastly different experiences from two things that look chemically similar, this is also a good reason why people shouldn't just assume that they can cowboy their own chemistry.
不同的化合物能产生如此多种效果的原因之一是，例如，血清素可能会以特定的速率影响某个通路，而裸盖菇素可能会触发该通路的不同成分的激活，不同的速率，因为你可以从化学上相似的两种物质中获得截然不同的体验，这也是人们不应该仅仅假设他们可以牛仔自己的化学反应的一个很好的原因。
That what you see on paper and what you can mix up in a vial is often vastly different than what you predict.
您在纸上看到的内容以及在小瓶中混合的内容通常与您的预测有很大不同。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
And there's a dose-effect curve that's really interesting.
还有一条非常有趣的剂量效应曲线。
Some of our early work with psilocybin, in healthy normals, looked at a true placebo plus four active doses: five, 10, 20 and 30 milligrams of psilocybin — body weight adjusted.
我们对裸盖菇素的一些早期研究，在健康正常人中，观察了真正的安慰剂加上四种活性剂量：5、10、20 和 30 毫克裸盖菇素——调整体重。
So those milligrams per 70 kilograms of body weight.
也就是每 70 公斤体重的毫克数。
We've recently published a paper in our newer trials, dropping the body weight adjustment because going across hundreds of volunteers, we've figured out that you don't need to be adjusting by body weight.
我们最近在新的试验中发表了一篇论文，放弃了体重调整，因为通过对数百名志愿者的调查，我们发现你不需要根据体重进行调整。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Interesting.
有趣。
Well, brain size doesn't vary that much between individuals.
嗯，大脑大小在个体之间差异不大。
At the end, this is a brain effect, mostly, probably body as well.
最后，这主要是大脑的影响，也可能是身体的影响。
So the person ingests the powdered capsule.
因此，人会摄入粉末状胶囊。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
In a little pill.
一颗小药丸里。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay, and is it powder of capsule?
好的，是胶囊粉吗？
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
It doesn't take ...
这并不需要...
30 milligrams is a small, You could fit it into a tiny little capsule, and it'll take about a half hour, but anywhere from 15 minutes to an hour to kick in, on average about a ha ...
30毫克很小，你可以把它装进一个很小的胶囊里，大约需要半个小时，但任何地方都需要15分钟到一个小时才能生效，平均大约半小时...
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And you said the dose range was ...
你说剂量范围是......
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
Most of our studies are looking at, where we want a psychedelic effect, are in the 20 to 30 milligram range.
我们的大多数研究都在关注 20 至 30 毫克范围内的迷幻效果。
Again, because we have adjusted by body weight and the average American is over 70 kilograms, about 150 pounds, people in fact have gotten more like 40, 45 in a lot of cases, but it's still a small pill.
再说一遍，因为我们已经根据体重进行了调整，美国人的平均体重超过 70 公斤，大约 150 磅，所以实际上在很多情况下人们的体重已经增加到了 40、45 磅，但这仍然是一个小药丸。
The session day itself, for most of our studies, is not full of task.
对于我们的大部分学习来说，会议日本身并不充满任务。
We really want to look at the therapeutic response.
我们真的想看看治疗反应。
Obviously, if it's a therapeutic study, we want it to be a meaningful experience.
显然，如果这是一项治疗研究，我们希望它成为一次有意义的经历。
Research has found, not surprisingly, that you get a less meaningful experience when you're in an FMRI, or when you're doing a lot of cognitive tasks.
毫不奇怪，研究发现，当您接受功能磁共振成像或执行大量认知任务时，您会获得不太有意义的体验。
We've done some research of that type, for sure, and plenty of colleagues have.
当然，我们已经做过一些此类研究，很多同事也做过。
But when you're in a therapeutic study, or if you're trying to understand the therapeutic effects, you have to recognize there's this trade-off of what you can do.
但是，当您进行治疗研究时，或者如果您试图了解治疗效果，您必须认识到您可以做的事情之间存在权衡。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
So our typical therapeutic model, which again isn't just limited necessarily to the therapeutic studies where we're trying to treat a specific disorder.
因此，我们典型的治疗模型不仅限于我们试图治疗特定疾病的治疗研究。
It is to have that preparation, so the person feels very comfortable with their guides.
有了这样的准备，人们才会对他们的指导感到非常舒服。
I mean, ultimately, what I tell people is, any emotional response, it's all welcome.
我的意思是，最终我告诉人们的是，任何情绪反应都是受欢迎的。
I mean, you could be crying like a baby, hysterically.
我的意思是，你可能会歇斯底里地哭得像个婴儿。
That's what you should be doing if that's what you feel like.
如果你有这样的感觉，那就应该这么做。
And so in a lot of ways, sometimes people with psychedelic experience on their own, it can be harder to train them in this model.
因此，在很多方面，有时对于自己有迷幻体验的人来说，在这种模式下训练他们可能会更困难。
Because in the real world, people with psychedelic experience, a lot of times the rule is, hold your shit.
因为在现实世界中，有迷幻经历的人，很多时候规则就是，忍住。
Several friends go to a party, they split a bag of mushrooms.
几个朋友去聚会，他们分了一袋蘑菇。
It's like there's a social pressure, for good reason, not to be the guy in the corner of the room where everyone's trying to just have a good time and relax, crying about your mother; your other friends are, they're having an experience too, and you're being a drama king and blah, blah, blah, and so yeah, compose yourself, hold your Andrew Huberman:
这就像有一种社会压力，有充分的理由，不要成为那个在房间角落里每个人都试图享受美好时光并放松的人，为你的母亲哭泣；你的其他朋友，他们也有这样的经历，而你正在成为一个戏剧之王，等等，等等，所以，是的，镇定下来，保持你的安德鲁胡伯曼：
I mean, you're doing therapy for people.
我的意思是，你正在为人们进行治疗。
It's not just about the experience
这不仅仅是体验的问题
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
Right, and the experience itself is very much shaped by that container, by the environment, and the degree to which one allows it to happen ...
是的，体验本身在很大程度上是由容器、环境以及允许它发生的程度决定的……
One should let go of control.
人应该放弃控制。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Let's talk about the letting go of control, and then as we march through this hypothetical experience that does take place in your lab.
让我们讨论一下放弃控制，然后我们将讨论在您的实验室中确实发生的假设体验。
So we're using a generic case example, if you will.
如果您愿意的话，我们将使用一个通用案例示例。
The letting go of control is an interesting feature, actually.
实际上，放弃控制是一个有趣的功能。
Because one of the common themes of good psychoanalysis is, or psychotherapy of any kind, is that there's a trust built between the patient and the analyst.
因为良好的精神分析或任何类型的心理治疗的共同主题之一是患者和分析师之间建立信任。
That relationship becomes a template for trust, more generally, and trust in oneself.
这种关系成为信任的模板，更广泛地说，是对自己的信任。
It's actually the end goal of good psychoanalysis is that the patient actually ...
实际上，良好的精神分析的最终目标是患者实际上......
One of the end goals is that they develop an empathy for themselves, which almost sounds like an oxymoron, but if you spend a little time with that statement, it actually pans out.
最终目标之一是他们对自己产生同理心，这听起来几乎是矛盾的，但如果你花一点时间思考这个说法，它实际上会成功。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
If you spend a little time with that statement, it actually pans out.
如果你花一点时间思考这句话，它实际上会成功。
So the psychedelic experience is one in which, chemically, you're under a new set of conditions, right?
所以迷幻体验是指，从化学角度来说，你处于一组新的条件下，对吗？
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Coarsely, space and time are altered in some way, sense of self.
粗略地说，空间和时间以某种方式改变，即自我意识。
For instance, I might be going to a strongly interceptive mode where I'm focusing on everything within the confines of my skin, whereas normally we're sort of interacting in space, and pens and conversation and I'm ...
例如，我可能会进入一种强烈的拦截模式，在这种模式下，我专注于我皮肤范围内的一切，而通常我们是在空间、笔和对话中进行互动，而我……
If I had ...
如果我有...
Occasionally I'll pay attention to my breathing, but I'm sort of dilating and contracting my focus for different things all the time.
偶尔我会注意自己的呼吸，但我总是会为了不同的事情而扩大和收缩我的注意力。
The letting go of control, it seems to me could be sort of the expansion of one perceptual bubble to the point where you're not actually worried that that perceptual bubble is going to pop, or that ...
在我看来，放弃控制可能是一种知觉泡沫的扩张，直到你实际上并不担心知觉泡沫会破裂，或者……
meaning you're not worried about what people think of you.
这意味着您不担心人们对您的看法。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You're not worried whether or not your brain is going to explode, even though a thought could feel enormous.
你并不担心你的大脑是否会爆炸，即使一个想法可能感觉很大。
If I keep going like this, it almost sounds psychedelic, but that's the idea here.
如果我继续这样下去，这听起来几乎是迷幻的，但这就是这里的想法。
Or if I'm paying attention, for instance, to some somatic experience, like the coursing of waves of heat through my body, that I'm not suddenly saying, "Is that weird?" I'm actually just going deeper and deeper into it.
或者，例如，如果我正在注意某些躯体体验，例如热波穿过我的身体，我不会突然说：“这很奇怪吗？”事实上我只是越来越深入地了解它。
So it's essentially expanding a perceptual phenomenon.
所以它本质上是在扩展一种感知现象。
How do you convince people to go further and further down that path?
你如何说服人们沿着这条路走得越来越远？
What do you think allows them to do that?
您认为是什么允许他们这样做？
Because I think that to me is one of the more unusual aspects to psychedelics, is that normally the social pressure, but also just our internal pressure from our own brain is, "Pay attention to many things at once." Not just one.
因为我认为对我来说迷幻药最不寻常的方面之一是通常的社会压力，但也只是我们大脑的内部压力是“同时注意很多事情”。不只是一个。
Is that-
难道是——
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
Especially these days.
尤其是现在。
Yeah.
是的。
Multitask.
多任务。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Multitask.
多任务。
And the more that we focus on one thing, the more bizarre that thing actually can appear to us.
我们越关注一件事，那件事实际上对我们来说就越奇怪。
I mean, even if it's the tip of your finger and you're not taking any psychedelic, you spend a long enough looking at the tip of your finger, you will notice some very weird things.
我的意思是，即使是你的指尖，而且你没有服用任何迷幻药，你花足够长的时间看着你的指尖，你会注意到一些非常奇怪的事情。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
I think of that as the classic psychedelic effect, or one classic effect, and one I've used many times of, this example of why people shouldn't necessarily ...
我认为这是经典的迷幻效果，或者是一种经典效果，也是我多次使用过的效果，这个例子说明了为什么人们不一定......
One should be judicious in putting themselves in these circumstances.
人们应该明智地将自己置身于这些环境中。
Someone could be having a very strong psilocybin experience, and they're trying to navigate their way in Manhattan, crossing the street, and they might be staring into their hand and ...
有人可能有非常强烈的裸盖菇素体验，他们正试图在曼哈顿导航，过马路，他们可能会盯着自己的手......
their hand is the most amazing miracle.
他们的手是最令人惊叹的奇迹。
The entire universe has essentially conspired to come to this one point to make this absolutely breathtaking ...
整个宇宙基本上已经共同走到了这一点，使这绝对令人叹为观止......
It's almost like, I think of the simplest form of ...
这几乎就像，我想到了最简单的形式......
Well, we know the simplest form of learning is habituation, simply keep applying stimuli and there's less response.
嗯，我们知道最简单的学习形式是习惯化，只需不断施加刺激，反应就会减少。
This is what organisms do, this is what we have to do.
这就是生物体所做的，这就是我们必须做的。
And it's like there's this dishabituation component that-
就好像有一种去习惯的成分——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Dishabituation.
不习惯。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
Yes.
是的。
We wouldn't be able to get through life, we wouldn't be able to cross that street if we were like, "Holy ...
如果我们想，“天哪......
This is a miracle!"
这是一个奇迹！”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, I'm so glad you brought this up.
不，我很高兴你提出这个问题。
I mean, here I'm reflecting my bias as a vision scientist, but most people don't realize this.
我的意思是，在这里我反映了我作为视觉科学家的偏见，但大多数人没有意识到这一点。
If you look at something long enough, it eventually disappears.
如果你看某样东西足够长的时间，它最终会消失。
It doesn't actually disappear, but perceptually it disappears.
它实际上并没有消失，而是感觉上消失了。
You have these little microsaccades that ensure that it doesn't.
这些微小的微扫视可以确保它不会发生。
But most of us don't look at any one thing for very long.
但我们大多数人不会长时间关注一件事。
The brain's default is to perceptually jump around crazy with the visual system, with the auditory system.
大脑的默认设置是视觉系统和听觉系统在知觉上疯狂跳跃。
We all ...
我们都...
ADD, people talk about ADD a lot, is sort of baked into our underlying networks at some level and then we can force attention.
ADD，人们经常谈论ADD，在某种程度上已经融入到我们的底层网络中，然后我们可以强迫注意力。
But it sounds like on psychedelics, one of the primary goals therapeutically is to really drill into one of these perceptual bubbles and expand that bubble.
但听起来就像迷幻药一样，治疗的主要目标之一是真正钻入这些感知泡沫之一并扩大该泡沫。
And the safety, it seems, is the safety ...
而安全，似乎就是安全……
it's sort of a permission to do that without worrying that something's going to happen.
这是一种允许这样做，而不用担心会发生什么事情。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
Right.
对。
Because I've had people there on the couch.
因为我已经有人坐在沙发上了。
Yeah.
是的。
I remember one lady said, this is probably 13, 14 years ago, said, "Matt, tell me again I can't die.
我记得一位女士说，这可能是 13、14 年前，她说：“马特，再告诉我一次，我不能死。
I feel like my heart is going to rip through my chest." I mean she was feeling her ...
我感觉我的心要撕裂我的胸腔了。”我的意思是她感觉她...
And I should say, typically cardiovascular response is modest.
我应该说，通常心血管反应是温和的。
The pulse and blood pressure go up somewhat.
脉搏和血压有所上升。
It can be dangerous for people if they're at severe heart risk, and we do ...
如果人们有严重的心脏病风险，这对他们来说可能是危险的，而我们确实......
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Are you monitoring this the whole time?
你一直在监视这个吗？
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
We do.
我们做到了。
Yeah.
是的。
We do monitor-
我们确实监控-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They're plugged into a variety of devices.
它们被插入各种设备。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
So every half hour or so we take there, on protocol, and we space it out a little further, further into the time course.
因此，每隔半小时左右，我们就会按照协议前往那里，并将时间间隔得更远一些，时间进程更远一些。
But we take their blood pressure and their pulse, and if it goes over a certain level, we have a protocol, and we've had to do this only a few times, but the physician comes in, gives them a little nitroglycerin under the tongue and knocks the blood pressure down a little bit, doesn't affect the experience.
但是我们测量他们的血压和脉搏，如果超过一定水平，我们有一个方案，我们只需要这样做几次，但是医生进来，在舌下给他们一点硝酸甘油，将血压降低一点，不会影响体验。
So we have it all in place even though they'd probably be fine, out of an abundance of caution.
因此，出于高度的谨慎，我们已经把一切都准备好了，尽管它们可能没问题。
But someone can feel that, "My God, I'm going to die.
但有人可以感觉到，“天啊，我快要死了。
I have never felt my heart beat like this before." And the experience of the breath can be just absolutely fantastic.
我以前从来没有感觉到我的心跳像这样。”呼吸的体验绝对是美妙的。
And the breath is obviously interesting because it's this automatic control, but it could also be voluntary, so people can get into a sense of, "My God, what if I ..." It sounds silly, like a stoner maybe-
呼吸显然很有趣，因为它是自动控制的，但它也可能是自愿的，所以人们会产生一种感觉，“我的上帝，如果我……怎么办？”这听起来很愚蠢，可能就像一个瘾君子——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What if I forgot to breathe?
如果我忘记呼吸怎么办？
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
Exactly.
正是如此。
But people could ...
但人们可以...
That can be so compelling.
这真是太引人注目了。
And so one other reason ...
还有一个原因......
Get back to one of your questions, what do we do to allow them to go further into these bubbles?
回到你的一个问题，我们该怎么做才能让他们进一步进入这些泡沫？
It's like, one is wearing the eye shades.
就像，一个人戴着眼罩。
We don't call them blindfolds because that has a negative connotation like being kidnapped.
我们不称它们为“眼罩”，因为这有负面含义，比如被绑架。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, and they're probably seeing a lot in there anyway.
好吧，无论如何他们可能在那里看到了很多东西。
So blind isn't the appropriate.
所以盲目是不合适的。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
Right, right.
对，对。
That's, I've never thought of it.
就是这样，我从来没有想过。
These should be inner sight shades.
这些应该是内视色调。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
When you close the eyes, the levels of activity in the retina actually are maintained.
当您闭上眼睛时，视网膜的活动水平实际上保持不变。
It's just spontaneous activity.
这只是自发活动。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
And it seems, and I'd be curious about your thoughts on this, but the way I describe it is that the mind's eye, this kind of loose term we use, can be on rocket boosters.
看来，我很好奇你对此的想法，但我描述它的方式是，心灵之眼，我们使用的这种宽松的术语，可以在火箭助推器上。
So a lot of times for some people, like a compound like psilocybin, for some people there's no perceptual effect.
所以很多时候对于某些人来说，就像裸盖菇素这样的化合物，对于某些人来说没有感知效果。
If they're looking at this room, it would pretty much look the same.
如果他们看这个房间，它看起来几乎是一样的。
Sometimes folks say, "Yeah.
有时人们会说：“是的。
Things seem a little bit brighter." Now some people will say, "Oh, my God, there's waves.
事情似乎变得更加光明了一些。”现在有些人会说：“哦，天哪，有波浪。
That wall is waving and these curtains are ...
那堵墙在飘扬，这些窗帘......
" On these compounds, people don't typically see pink elephants.
“在这些化合物上，人们通常不会看到粉红色的大象。
You do actually get that in another class.
你确实在另一堂课上学到了这一点。
I didn't mention the anticholinergics, sort of like atropine and scopolamine, those drugs — those are the true hallucinations where you thought you were having a conversation with someone who was never there.
我没有提到抗胆碱能药物，比如阿托品和东莨菪碱，这些药物——这些药物是真正的幻觉，让你以为自己正在与一个从未在场的人交谈。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We will definitely get to those.
我们一定会做到的。
But the reason I kind of cringe and say, oh my when you talked about those is that knowing a little bit about the pharmacology of acetylcholine, the idea of manipulating that system, to me, sounds very uncomfortable because the whole idea of ...
但当你谈到这些时，我有点畏缩地说，哦，天哪，是因为了解一点乙酰胆碱的药理学，操纵该系统的想法，对我来说，听起来很不舒服，因为整个想法......
Well, witches and flying, there was a whole history there hundreds of years ago.
好吧，女巫和飞行，数百年前就有了完整的历史。
So-called witches, taking these agents and then thinking they were flying around on broomsticks, and things of that sort.
所谓的女巫，带着这些特工，然后认为他们骑着扫帚飞来飞去，诸如此类。
And there's a lot of mythology around the broomsticks that's complicated, but that sounds very unpleasant.
关于扫帚有很多复杂的神话，但这听起来很不愉快。
One thing about the serotonergic ...
关于血清素能的一件事......
with psilocybin, so there's an expansion of a particular, fairly narrow percept.
裸盖菇素，所以有一个特定的、相当狭隘的认知的扩展。
It could be sound, could be an emotion, could be sadness, could be a historical event or a fear of the future.
它可能是声音，可能是一种情感，可能是悲伤，可能是一个历史事件或对未来的恐惧。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And you've mentioned before that there's something to be learned in that experience.
您之前提到过，从这次经历中可以学到一些东西。
There's something about going into that experience in an undeterred way that allows somebody to bring something back into more standard reality.
以一种不受阻碍的方式进入这种体验，可以让某人将某些东西带回到更标准的现实中。
Given the huge variety of experiences that people have on psychedelics, given the huge variety of humans that are out there, but what are now very clear therapeutic effects in the realm of depression.
鉴于人们对迷幻药的体验多种多样，考虑到人们的种类繁多，但现在在抑郁症领域的治疗效果非常明显。
What do you think is the value of going into this fairly restricted perceptual bubble?
你认为进入这个相当有限的感知泡沫有什么价值？
What we are calling letting go, or giving up control.
我们称之为放手，或者放弃控制。
Because if the experiences are many but the value of what one exports from that experience is kind of similar across individuals, that raises all sorts of interesting questions.
因为如果经历很多，但从该经历中输出的价值在不同个体之间是相似的，那就会引发各种有趣的问题。
And this is not a philosophy discussion.
这不是哲学讨论。
We're talking about biology and psychology here.
我们在这里谈论生物学和心理学。
So let's say I decide I'm going to focus on the tip of my pen.
假设我决定将重点放在笔尖上。
I mean in a psychedelic state, I could fall in love with this pen.
我的意思是，在迷幻的状态下，我可能会爱上这支笔。
I do happen to like these Pilot V5s and V7s very much.
我确实非常喜欢这些 Pilot V5 和 V7。
But I could feel real love for the pen.
但我能感受到对这支笔真正的热爱。
That's not an unreasonable thing to expect in a psychedelic journey.
在迷幻之旅中，这并不是一件不合理的事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And in the context of your laboratory model, which I think is a great one that experience would be just as valid as me going into the experience of some of the deep friction that I might have with a family member over my entire lifespan.
在你的实验室模型的背景下，我认为这是一个很好的模型，经验将与我在整个一生中与家庭成员可能发生的一些深刻摩擦的经历一样有效。
And yet the export from that, those two vastly different experiences, is one of feeling a better relationship to the world and to oneself.
然而，这两种截然不同的经历的输出是感觉与世界和自己的关系变得更好。
So what does this tell us about-
那么这告诉我们什么——
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
How can the pen and processing your childhood trauma both lead to ...
笔和处理你的童年创伤怎么会导致......
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I mean at that level it raises this question, first of all, How?
我的意思是，在这个层面上它提出了这个问题，首先，如何？
Why?
为什么？
I mean, or just what are your thoughts on that?
我的意思是，或者你对此有何想法？
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
So this is definitely in the terrain we're figuring out.
所以这肯定是在我们正在研究的领域内。
Educated speculation is the best I can provide, but I think the best ...
有根据的推测是我能提供的最好的，但我认为最好的......
I think the common denominator are persisting changes in self-representation.
我认为共同点是自我表现的持续变化。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Tell me more about self-representation.
告诉我更多关于自我代表的信息。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
That's the way one holds the sense of self.
这就是一个人持有自我意识的方式。
The fundamental relationship of a person in the world.
人与世界的基本关系。
I mentioned earlier that these experiences seem to alter the models we hold of reality.
我之前提到过，这些经历似乎改变了我们对现实的看法。
And I think self is the biggest model.
我认为自我是最大的模型。
That I am a thing that's separate from other things and I am defined by certain, I have a certain personality, and I'm a smoker that's having a hard time quitting, or I'm a depressed person that views myself as a failure.
我是一个与其他事物分开的东西，我被某些事物所定义，我有一定的个性，我是一个很难戒烟的烟民，或者我是一个抑郁的人，认为自己是一个失败者。
And all of these things, those are models too.
所有这些东西，也都是模型。
And I think that change in self-representation may be an end point for these different experiences.
我认为自我表征的改变可能是这些不同经历的终点。
I mean maybe the falling in love with the pen, the whole idea that you're ...
我的意思是，也许是爱上了钢笔，整个想法是……
Especially in contemplation afterwards, and obviously I'm speculating here, but that whole idea that you could have such a deep connection with this obviously random aspect of the universe could potentially lead to this transformed understanding of the self, and the pen may be a proxy for the miracle of reality in a way that relies nothing, on no supernatural thinking.
特别是在事后的沉思中，显然我在这里推测，但是你可以与宇宙的这个明显随机的方面有如此深刻的联系的整个想法可能会导致对自我的这种转变的理解，而笔可能以一种不依赖任何东西、不依赖超自然思维的方式代表现实的奇迹。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
You could be a hard atheist and take this ...
你可能是一个顽固的无神论者并接受这个......
Ultimately, Oh my God, like that ...
最后，天啊，就这样……
Just like the pen.
就像钢笔一样。
This is amazing, the fact that we exist.
这是令人惊奇的，我们存在的事实。
And so there could be an extrapolation chair, and you use the pen, but I think it sounds as similar to Aldous Huxley's classic description in "The Doors of Perception" of the chair and the drapes.
所以可能会有一把外推椅子，你可以使用笔，但我认为这听起来与奥尔德斯·赫胥黎在“感知之门”中对椅子和窗帘的经典描述相似。
He took 500 milligrams of mescaline.
他服用了 500 毫克麦司卡林。
He was just-
他只是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is that a high dose of mescaline?
这是高剂量的麦司卡林吗？
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
And that's a heroic dose for sure.
这无疑是一个英雄般的剂量。
And he just going off on the chairiness of the chair.
他刚刚开始主持会议。
This chair is exuding the quality of being a chair.
这把椅子散发着椅子的品质。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This expansion of the perceptual bubble.
这种感知泡沫的扩张。
A narrow percept that then grows within the confines of that narrow percept.
一种狭隘的观念，然后在这种狭隘的观念的范围内成长。
So sense of self is a very interesting phenomenon, and if we could dissect it a little bit: there's the somatic sense of self.
所以自我意识是一个非常有趣的现象，如果我们能稍微剖析一下：那就是自我的躯体意识。
So the ability to literally feel the self in this process we call "interception." And then there's the title of the self, the "I am blank." And I noticed you said that several times, and it's intriguing to me.
因此，在这个过程中真正感受到自我的能力我们称之为“拦截”。然后是自我的标题，“我是空白的”。我注意到你多次说过这句话，这对我来说很有趣。
A good friend, I don't think I can or should mention his name, but he had a very long and successful career within one of the more elite teams within the Seal teams.
作为一个好朋友，我认为我不能也不应该提及他的名字，但他在海豹队中的一支更精英的球队中拥有非常漫长而成功的职业生涯。
And he's a fairly philosophical guy, also a very practical guy.
他是一个相当有哲理的人，也是一个非常实际的人。
But he has said many times to me that the most powerful words in any language are "I am." Because whatever follows that tends ...
但他多次对我说过，任何语言中最有力的词就是“我是”。因为接下来发生的一切都会...
If you repeat it enough, tends to have this kind of feedback effect on how you are in the world.
如果你重复得足够多，往往会对你在世界上的表现产生这种反馈效应。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And the first pass, it sounded to me a little bit like Internet psychology type thing, like "The Secret" or something ...
第一遍，对我来说听起来有点像互联网心理学类型的东西，比如“秘密”之类的......
Which frankly I'm just not particularly .
坦率地说，我只是不特别。
So if you like the whole "fake it till you make it," I don't actually subscribe to any of that.
所以，如果你喜欢整个“假装直到成功”，我实际上并不同意其中任何一个。
But in dissecting that a little bit further with him, I came to realize that these words "I am" are very powerful.
但在与他进一步剖析后，我开始意识到“我是”这句话非常有力量。
I don't think you've reprogrammed your brain just by saying them.
我不认为仅仅通过说出这些话就可以重新编程你的大脑。
But how one defines themselves internally, not just to other people, but how one psychologically and by default defines themselves, I think, is very powerful.
但我认为，一个人如何在内部定义自己，不仅是对其他人，而且是在心理上和默认情况下如何定义自己，是非常强大的。
And depressed people as well as happy people seem to define themselves in terms of these categories of emotional states.
抑郁的人和快乐的人似乎都是根据这些情绪状态类别来定义自己的。
So I think it's so interesting that letting go and going into this perceptual bubble, which is facilitated by obviously a really wonderful team of therapists, but also the serotonergic agent, allows us to potentially reshape the perception of self.
所以我认为放手并进入这个感知泡沫是非常有趣的，这显然是由一个非常出色的治疗师团队以及血清素能药物促进的，使我们有可能重塑自我感知。
That's a tremendous feat of neuroplasticity.
这是神经可塑性的一项伟大壮举。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
And I think certainly more work needs to be done.
我认为当然还需要做更多的工作。
This is the horizon.
这就是地平线。
And I should credit Chris Letheby, a philosopher in Australia, who has a forthcoming book.
我应该归功于澳大利亚哲学家克里斯·莱瑟比（Chris Letheby），他即将出版一本书。
It might be out right about now or soon within the coming months.
它可能会立即发布，也可能会在未来几个月内发布。
"Psychedelics and Philosophy."
“迷幻药和哲学。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's the title of the book?
这是书名吗？
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
It might be "Psychedelic Philosophy." It's really close-
这可能是“迷幻哲学”。真的很接近——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Chris Letheby.
克里斯·莱瑟比。
We'll put a link to it.
我们将放置一个链接。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
And so his conclusion in this, it's a really great book, and he really plays with the idea, it's like psychedelic experiences come along with a lot of supernatural stuff, experience.
所以他的结论是，这是一本非常伟大的书，他真的发挥了这个想法，就像迷幻体验伴随着很多超自然的东西、经验一样。
It can certainly go along with that.
它当然可以随之而来。
But the idea is, can these experiences, and including those therapeutic effects, be explained from a naturalist point of view?
但我们的想法是，这些体验，包括那些治疗效果，可以从自然主义的角度来解释吗？
And his conclusion is that the changes in self-representation may be the commonality.
他的结论是，自我表征的变化可能是共性。
Now that could go along with plant spirits, and the Buddha, and chakras and whatever your model system, in Jesus, all of that.
现在，这可以与植物精神、佛陀、脉轮以及无论你的模型系统，在耶稣里，所有这些一起出现。
But it could also be completely devoid of any supernatural, any religious.
但它也可能完全没有任何超自然现象、任何宗教。
And we do, in fact, see all of these varieties.
事实上，我们确实看到了所有这些品种。
So I think there's something about this change in sense of self.
所以我认为这种自我意识的变化是有一定影响的。
It seems to be something on the identity level, both with ...
这似乎是身份层面上的事情，两者都......
I think of the work we did with cancer patients who had substantial depression and anxiety because of their cancer, and also our work with people trying to quit cigarette smoking.
我想起我们对因癌症而患有严重抑郁和焦虑的癌症患者所做的工作，以及我们对试图戒烟的人所做的工作。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
I mean, there's this real ...
我的意思是，有这个真实的...
There seems to be, when it really works, this change in how people view themselves.
当它真正起作用时，人们看待自己的方式似乎会发生这种变化。
Smoking, really stepping out of this model, "I'm a smoker.
吸烟，真正走出这个模式，“我是一个吸烟者。
It's tough to quit smoking cigarettes.
戒烟很难。
I can't do it.
我做不到。
I failed a bunch of times." I remember one participant during the session, but he held onto this afterwards, said, "My God, it's like I can really just decide, like flicking off a button, I can decide not to smoke." And I call these "duh" experiences with psychedelics because people often ...
我失败了很多次。”我记得会议期间有一位参与者，但他后来坚持了下来，说：“天哪，我真的可以决定，就像按一下按钮一样，我可以决定不吸烟。”我称这些为迷幻药的“呃”经历，因为人们经常......
in the cancer state you say, "I'm causing most of my own suffering.
在癌症状态下，你会说：“大部分痛苦都是我造成的。
I can follow my appointments, I can do everything, but I can still plan for the ...
我可以遵循我的预约，我可以做所有事情，但我仍然可以计划......
I'm not getting outside in the sunshine, I'm not playing with my grandkids.
我不会出去晒太阳，也不会和我的孙子们一起玩。
I'm choosing to do that." And it's like they told themselves that before and the smoker has told themselves a million times, I can ...
我选择这样做。”就像他们告诉自己，之前吸烟者已经告诉自己一百万次，我可以......
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
So it sounds, when it comes out of their mouths, and folks will say ...
听起来，当这句话从他们嘴里说出来时，人们会说……
And this is part of the inevitability of a psychedelic experience.
这是迷幻体验不可避免的一部分。
Folks say, "I know this sounds like bullshit and this sounds like ...
人们说：“我知道这听起来像废话，这听起来像......
but my God, I could just decide!" They're feeling this gravity of agency.
但天哪，我可以决定！”他们感受到了代理的重力。
And which I think is interesting because, regardless of the debates on the reality of free will, I think the philosophy of that, whether there's ultimately free will, pure agency, if that exists, which I'm skeptical of, or just the idea that clearly we have a sense of agency.
我认为这很有趣，因为无论关于自由意志现实的争论如何，我认为它的哲学，是否最终存在自由意志，纯粹的代理，如果存在的话，我对此表示怀疑，或者只是我们显然有一种代理意识的想法。
There's something there, whether it's the sense of agency even, that the human being has.
那里有某种东西，无论是人类所拥有的代理意识。
And that seems to be at times fundamentally supercharged from a psychedelic experience.
有时这似乎从根本上是由迷幻体验所增强的。
This idea, "I'm just going to make a decision." Normally, you tell a depressed person, "Don't think of yourself that way.
这个想法，“我只是要做一个决定。”通常，你会告诉抑郁的人：“不要那样想自己。
You're not a failure." Look at all the ...
你不是一个失败者。”看看所有...
It's just, yeah.
只是，是的。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
But you can actually ...
但其实你可以...
In one of these states have an experience where you realize, "My God!" Just using MDMA to treat PTSD, and we're going to be starting work with psilocybin to treat PTSD, someone could really reprocess their trauma in a way that has lasting effects.
在其中一种状态下，你会有一种体验，你会意识到：“我的上帝！”只要使用摇头丸来治疗创伤后应激障碍，我们将开始使用裸盖菇素来治疗创伤后应激障碍，有人真的可以以一种具有持久效果的方式重新处理他们的创伤。
And clearly, there's probably something of those memories.
显然，这些记忆中可能有一些东西。
They are altered ...
他们被改变了...
very consistent with what our understanding of the way memory works.
与我们对记忆运作方式的理解非常一致。
So the whole idea — people can actually in a few hours have such a profound experience that they decide to make these changes in who they are, and it sticks.
所以整个想法——人们实际上可以在几个小时内获得如此深刻的体验，以至于他们决定对自己做出这些改变，并且它会持续下去。
There seems to be something like that.
好像有这样的事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And that's profound.
这很深刻。
I think a few moments ago I made some semidisparaging statements about things like "The Secret" and affirmations.
我想刚才我对“秘密”和肯定之类的事情做了一些半贬低的陈述。
And the reason I do that, with a nod to the fact that the people in who are putting those ideas forward are well-intentioned people, is that the neural networks of the brain put language last.
我这样做的原因是，大脑的神经网络把语言放在最后，因为提出这些想法的人都是善意的人。
We tell stories, and stories are very powerful.
我们讲故事，而故事的力量非常强大。
But I think one of the most cruel aspects of the whole self-help literature and popular psychology is this idea that everything you say, your brain and body hear it.
但我认为整个自助文学和流行心理学最残酷的方面之一就是你所说的一切，你的大脑和身体都会听到它。
That's actually a very unkind or even cruel thing for people who are depressed or anxious to hear.
这对于心情郁闷或者急于听到的人来说，其实是一件非常不仁慈甚至残忍的事情。
Because if they hear that and believe that — and I want to be clear, I don't think it's true — that they think that ...
因为如果他们听到并相信——我想澄清，我认为这不是真的——他们认为……
it's very hard to control thoughts, it's very hard to control thoughts.
控制思想非常困难，控制思想非常困难。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So if somebody says, "I can't." And then somebody says, "Well no, every time you say you can't, your brain hears that and it reinforces that." That's a very treacherous place to live.
所以如果有人说：“我不能。”然后有人说：“不，每次你说你不能，你的大脑就会听到并强化这一点。”那是一个非常危险的居住地。
And language is powerful.
而且语言的力量是强大的。
But neural networks, the brain and the networks that underlie emotionality and perception and sense of self, they don't change in response to language.
但神经网络、大脑以及构成情感、感知和自我意识的网络，它们不会因语言而改变。
They change in response to experience.
他们会根据经验而改变。
And just fundamentally, you need ...
从根本上来说，你需要...
There's some prerequisites: you need certain neuromodulators present, like serotonin or dopamine.
有一些先决条件：您需要存在某些神经调节剂，例如血清素或多巴胺。
You need them to be at sufficient levels.
您需要它们处于足够的水平。
You don't need a drug necessarily do it.
你不一定需要药物才能做到这一点。
You could give a kid a kitten or a puppy, their first kitten or puppy, and the levels of dopamine and serotonin ...
你可以给一个孩子一只小猫或一只小狗，他们的第一只小猫或小狗，以及多巴胺和血清素的水平......
I've never measured them, but we can be pretty sure that they are higher than baseline, and that experience will reshape them, right?
我从未测量过它们，但我们可以非常确定它们高于基线，并且这种经验将重塑它们，对吧？
Likewise, with an adult in a certain circumstances.
同样，在某些情况下，成年人也是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So I think I'm fascinated by this idea that a somatic and a perceptual experience, but a real experience of the sort that you're describing, is what allows us to reshape our neural circuitry and to feel differently about ourselves.
所以我认为我对这个想法很着迷，即身体和感知体验，但你所描述的那种真实体验，使我们能够重塑我们的神经回路，并对自己有不同的感觉。
And I know there's been really tremendous success in many individuals of alleviating depression, of treating trauma with these different compounds.
我知道许多人在使用这些不同的化合物缓解抑郁症和治疗创伤方面取得了巨大的成功。
I wanted to step from the experience under the effects of the psychedelic.
我想摆脱迷幻药的影响。
So the person there with your team, they go into this expanded perceptual bubble.
因此，与你的团队一起的人，他们进入了这个扩大的感知泡沫。
If things go well, they're able to do that to a really deep degree.
如果事情进展顺利，他们就能做到非常深入。
Maybe it's the relived trauma, maybe it's the beauty of their ability to connect to things in the world.
也许这是重温的创伤，也许是他们与世界上的事物建立联系的能力之美。
Now I want to talk about the transition out of that state and then the export into life, because this is really where the power of psychedelics seems to be in the therapeutic sense, is the ability to truly learn from that experience so that the learning becomes the default.
现在我想谈谈从那种状态的转变，然后进入生活，因为这确实是迷幻药在治疗意义上的力量所在，是真正从那种经历中学习的能力，使学习成为默认的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That one doesn't have to remind themselves, "Oh I am ...
那个人不必提醒自己，“哦，我......
" They don't have to do an affirmation.
“他们不必做出肯定。
"I am a happy person." I was thinking of Bart Simpson, like writing on the chalkboard; didn't work for him, doesn't work for this other stuff too.
“我是一个快乐的人。”我想起巴特·辛普森，就像在黑板上写字一样；对他不起作用，对其他东西也不起作用。
So as they transition out of this state, I know that there's a kind of heightened peak where everything seems to be kind of cascading in at such a level that the person just, they can't really turn it off at that point.
因此，当他们从这种状态过渡出来时，我知道有一种高度的峰值，一切似乎都在这样的水平上层叠，以至于人们在那时无法真正将其关闭。
It would be challenging.
这将是具有挑战性的。
And then they start to exit the effects of the drug.
然后他们开始退出药物的作用。
Are those transition zones, are those valuable?
那些过渡区有价值吗？
Much like, is the transition between a dream and the waking state valuable?
就像，梦境和清醒状态之间的过渡有价值吗？
Because you're in a sort of mishmash of altered reality and new reality.
因为你正处于改变的现实和新的现实的混杂之中。
What do you to guide people through the, out the tunnel as they exit the tunnel?
当人们离开隧道时，你如何引导他们穿过隧道？
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
And I have to say, this is where we need more experimentation.
我不得不说，这就是我们需要更多实验的地方。
Really the clinical model goes back to literally the late 1950s.
实际上，临床模型可以追溯到 20 世纪 50 年代末。
And there's been virtually no experimentation on, let's say, randomized people to, "We're going to talk more during the latter half of the session" versus not.
可以说，几乎没有进行过实验，比如随机安排人们“我们将在会议的后半段谈论更多”与“不”。
Versus we have them write an essay after their session versus not.
与我们让他们在会议结束后写一篇文章与不让他们写一篇文章进行比较。
Versus we have this amount of integration.
与我们有这么多的集成相比。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What's the discussion in your studies?
你的研究中讨论了什么？
Are they writing or talking out as they're doing it?
他们在做的时候是在写还是在说话？
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
And it's called — very loosey goosey term — integration.
这就是——非常宽松、愚蠢的术语——集成。
But for us means as they're coming back from the experience, sort of five, six hours in — so this is the afternoon, they've been dosed around nine o'clock, so this is four o'clock or so.
但对我们来说，意味着他们从体验中回来，大约五、六个小时后——所以这是下午，他们在九点左右服药，所以现在是四点左右。
Just some initial, "Tell us about the experience.
只是一些开头，“告诉我们一些经历。
Do you want to ...
你想...
" not unpacking it totally.
“没有完全拆开它。
But initially just have a little bit discussion before they go home.
但在他们回家之前，最初只是进行了一些讨论。
So there's a little bit of that, but then that night their homework is to write something.
所以有一点，但那天晚上他们的作业就是写点东西。
So it could be a few bullet points, it could be 20 pages, and we get everything in that range.
所以它可能是几个要点，可能是 20 页，我们得到了这个范围内的所有内容。
But try not to be self-critical.
但尽量不要自我批评。
It's not graded.
它没有分级。
This is just to process and for a point of discussion the next day.
这只是为了处理和第二天的讨论。
So they write something, they come in the next day for a one to two hour, depending on the study, integration session.
所以他们写一些东西，第二天他们会来一到两个小时，具体取决于学习、整合课程。
Basically, let's discuss your experience, and depending on what study it's in, what might that mean for your dealing with cancer, what might that mean for your smoking or becoming a nonsmoker?
基本上，让我们讨论一下您的经历，并根据它所在的研究，这对您治疗癌症意味着什么，这对您吸烟或成为不吸烟者意味着什么？
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
So you encourage them to simply take it seriously.
所以你鼓励他们认真对待它。
And I think this is, again, is sort of one of the points that could be the antithesis of what some social users use.
我认为这又是可能与某些社交用户所使用的内容相反的观点之一。
I mean, this was written about by Huston Smith, the scholar of religion, in terms of these mystical experiences that can happen from psychedelics and how a lot of times the attribution to a drug effect is dismissed, even if one has this sense of being one with the universe.
我的意思是，这是宗教学者休斯顿·史密斯（Huston Smith）写的，内容涉及迷幻药可能发生的神秘体验，以及很多时候药物效应的归因被忽视，即使一个人有与宇宙合一的感觉。
And it totally shakes their soul so to speak.
可以说，这完全震撼了他们的灵魂。
But the next day their friends were like, "Ah dude, you were screwed up, too much acid for you, wooo!
但第二天他们的朋友就说：“啊伙计，你搞砸了，对你来说太多酸了，呜呜！
Man, next time you need to have a few more beers to bring that down." This sort of social reinforcement for dismissing the experience.
伙计，下次你需要多喝几杯啤酒才能把它降下来。”这种社会强化是为了消除这种经历。
"Oh God, you were talking out of your head, man." Even if it's good natured, but it's this dismissal, it's not like ...
“天哪，你简直是胡言乱语，伙计。”就算是好脾气，但就是这样的解雇，也不像……
What you want to do is, "Tell me more about that.
你想做的是，“告诉我更多相关信息。
You were crying at one point and talking about your mom.
你曾一度哭着谈论你的妈妈。
Let's talk about that.
我们来谈谈这个吧。
What was that?
那是什么？
Do you remember that?"
你还记得吗？”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Are you doing that follow up or they're encouraged to do that in their own life with the various people in their lives?
您是否会跟进，或者鼓励他们在自己的生活中与生活中的不同人一起这样做？
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
Both.
两者皆有。
So we do that explicitly in the follow-up, where we have these discussions and, depending on what the situation is, you might encourage the person to follow up.
因此，我们在后续讨论中明确地这样做，根据具体情况，您可能会鼓励该人进行后续跟进。
Really the basics of it is supportive therapy.
实际上，它的基础是支持疗法。
Use all the reflective listening and the humanistic psychology thing.
使用所有反思性倾听和人文心理学的东西。
Unconditional positive regard for the person.
对人无条件的积极尊重。
But I think if someone feels inclined to apologize to their sibling about something, it's like, "Yeah.
但我认为，如果有人愿意就某件事向他们的兄弟姐妹道歉，就像是，“是的。
Go ahead and call them up." With something big like a relationship change, it'd be like, sit on that two weeks.
去吧，给他们打电话。”如果发生诸如关系变化之类的大事，那就像是，坐等两周。
Don't make any big, don't end any relationship.
不要做大事，不要结束任何关系。
Don't quit your job.
不要辞掉你的工作。
Don't make any big-
别搞大事——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do you also tell them not to start any relationships?
你也告诉他们不要开始任何关系吗？
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
I don't remember that ever coming up.
我不记得有过这样的事。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm not joking, I was just wondering, but makes sense why-
我不是在开玩笑，我只是想知道，但这是有道理的-
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
Like if they're dating and they're thinking like, "Ah, might be time to take it to the next level.
就像他们在约会时会想，“啊，也许是时候把事情提升到一个新的水平了。
Should I ask this girl to marry me?" If it did come up, I would say there too, "Why don't you sit on that a week or two?"
我该向这个女孩求婚吗？”如果它确实出现了，我也会在那里说，“你为什么不坐一两个星期呢？”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Don't get a puppy-
别养小狗——
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
And let your sober mind-
并让你清醒的头脑——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Don't get a puppy.
不要养小狗。
Certainly don't get four puppies until you ...
当然不要养四只小狗，直到你......
I have a question about flashbacks.
我有一个关于闪回的问题。
One of the kind of things you hear is flashbacks and that people ...
你听到的其中一件事就是闪回，人们……
Do people get flashbacks?
人们会出现闪回吗？
And if so, what is the basis of flashbacks?
如果是这样，闪回的基础是什么？
On-the-street lore about this is that somehow some of the compound gets stored in body fat tissues and then released later?
关于这一点的街头传说是，某些化合物以某种方式储存在身体脂肪组织中，然后释放出来？
Is that complete nonsense?
这完全是胡说八道吗？
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
No evidence for that.
没有证据证明这一点。
So probably complete nonsense.
所以可能完全是胡说八道。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Flashbacks are nonsense?
闪回是废话吗？
Or the storage in body fat is complete nonsense?
或者体内脂肪的储存完全是无稽之谈？
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
The storage in body fat.
体内脂肪的储存。
So to answer whether flashbacks are complete nonsense, we have to define it.
所以要回答闪回是否完全是无稽之谈，我们必须给它下定义。
So I really think these are multiple constructs that are going.
所以我真的认为这些是正在发生的多种结构。
It's not the same thing that fall under that term.
这与该术语下的事物不同。
There is a phenomenon that appears real that's called Hallucinogen Persisting Perceptual Disorder.
有一种看似真实的现象，称为致幻剂持续性知觉障碍。
It's in the DSM.
它在 DSM 中。
A certain number of people, very small number of people, percentagewise, who have used psychedelics will have these persisting perceptual disorders.
使用过致幻剂的一定数量的人（极少数人）会出现这些持续的知觉障碍。
They'll see halos around things.
他们会看到事物周围有光环。
They'll see some trails, after-images following an object in motion.
他们会看到一些痕迹，即运动中物体的残影。
They'll see distortions in color, and it'll be like anything else that's a disorder in the DSM.
他们会看到颜色的扭曲，就像 DSM 中的任何其他紊乱一样。
It has to be clinically distressing, and it has to be persisting over some number of months.
它必须在临床上令人痛苦，并且必须持续数月。
And so very rare, very mysterious.
所以非常罕见，非常神秘。
Some of the keys to that are, amazingly, it's never been seen in the thousands of participants, either from the older era, from the late '50s to the early '70s.
令人惊讶的是，其中的一些关键是，无论是从旧时代，还是从 50 年代末到 70 年代初，数千名参与者从未见过这种情况。
People in psychedelic studies with LSD, psilocybin, mescaline.
使用LSD、裸盖菇素、麦斯卡林进行迷幻研究的人。
And it's never been seen in the modern era.
这在现代是从未见过的。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
Again, now with thousands of participants at a number of centers like ours throughout the world.
同样，现在世界各地像我们这样的许多中心都有数千名参与者。
So it seems to be something that is for some reason happening in illicit use.
因此，这似乎是由于某种原因非法使用而发生的事情。
So that brings in, "Okay, is there polypharmacology?" Because you're drinking during-
这就带来了“好吧，有多重药理学吗？”因为你在喝酒的时候——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Did you take what you thought you took?
你拿走了你以为拿走了的东西吗？
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
Yeah.
是的。
What's the dose?
剂量是多少？
What's the purity?
纯度如何？
But then also what I think is actually even more so than that, what's likely going on is some sort of very rare neurological susceptibility.
但我认为实际上更重要的是，可能发生的是某种非常罕见的神经易感性。
There is one paper that is a case series of individuals reporting these symptoms, and they didn't limit it to just people who had hallucinogen history.
有一篇论文是报告这些症状的一系列病例，他们并没有将其仅限于有致幻剂历史的人。
And the amazing thing about this is that a number of people seem to have straight-up HPPD diagnosis.
令人惊奇的是，许多人似乎都直接诊断出 HPPD。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What is HPPD?
什么是HPPD？
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
Hallucinogen Persisting Perceptual Disorder — who have never taken a psychedelic.
致幻剂持续性知觉障碍——从未服用过致幻剂的人。
So it's often prompted by alcohol, benzodiazepines, cannabis, even tobacco.
所以它通常是由酒精、苯二氮卓类药物、大麻，甚至烟草引起的。
And I believe in one individual, no lifetime history of any ...
我相信一个人，没有任何一生的历史......
It wasn't preceded by any of those substance uses.
在此之前没有任何这些物质的使用。
So I think of it like the precipitation exacerbation of psychotic disorders.
所以我认为它就像精神障碍的沉淀加剧。
It seems pretty clear through observation that some people with either predisposition or active psychotic disease, that this can destabilize them.
通过观察似乎很清楚，一些患有易感性或活动性精神病的人，这可能会破坏他们的稳定性。
The same way that a life experience can destabilize this person more easily.
就像生活经历更容易使这个人不稳定一样。
I think of it like that there's probably some pretty rare neurological susceptibility.
我认为可能存在一些非常罕见的神经敏感性。
We have tended, going ...
我们一直在努力，去...
this goes back to the '80s.
这可以追溯到 80 年代。
Clinical practice, it ended up in the DSM focused on hallucinogen because I relate it to the psychology of xenophobia.
临床实践中，它最终在 DSM 中重点关注致幻剂，因为我将其与仇外心理联系起来。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
It's always the weird other thing that gets the attribution.
总是有其他奇怪的事情得到归因。
You don't attribute to the thing, "Oh yeah, did you smoke cigarettes?
你不会将其归因于“哦，是的，你抽烟吗？
Did you drink?" It's like, "Well, yeah.
你喝酒了吗？”就像，“嗯，是的。
But I see lots of people drinking and not ending up with this." You take a crazy drug and you can get people to believe all sorts of crazy stuff.
但我看到很多人喝酒后却没有得到这个结果。”你服用一种疯狂的药物，你可以让人们相信各种疯狂的事情。
The biggest example of that is the cathinone derivatives, so called bath salts.
最大的例子是卡西酮衍生物，即所谓的浴盐。
And if remember several years back ...
如果还记得几年前的话......
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
What was the deal with that?
那是怎么回事？
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
The guy in Florida that ate the other guy's face.
佛罗里达州的一个人吃了另一个人的脸。
There was a homeless guy that literally ate part of someone's face off.
有一个无家可归的人，真的把某人的脸吃了一部分。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
While the person was alive.
当这个人还活着的时候。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
While the person was alive.
当这个人还活着的时候。
And all it took was one sheriff's deputy to say, "Well, I don't know, but I bet it was some of that bath salts stuff that's been going on." The only thing-
只需要一位副警长说：“好吧，我不知道，但我敢打赌，这是一些浴盐的事情正在发生。”唯一的事情是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What was it was-
那是什么——
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
The only thing in his system-
他的系统中唯一的东西——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Maybe we could set the record straight for people.
也许我们可以为人们澄清事实。
Why would he say bath salts?
为什么他会说浴盐？
And was it bath salts?
是浴盐吗？
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
It wasn't.
事实并非如此。
And so the only thing in his tox was cannabis, which we all know, typically people don't eat people's faces off after they get stoned.
所以他的毒物中唯一的东西就是大麻，我们都知道，通常人们在吸毒后不会把人的脸吃掉。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
Hungrier but not that hungry.
比较饿，但没那么饿。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
Right.
对。
So it's just an example of the xenophobia.
所以这只是仇外心理的一个例子。
Today, if you get on Google images and look up bath salts, one of the most common images you'll see is this poor guy's face being eaten and all.
今天，如果你在谷歌图片上查找浴盐，你会看到的最常见的图片之一就是这个可怜人的脸被吃掉了等等。
So we're just so ready to latch on, just like the people of another culture that we don't know of.
所以我们已经准备好抓住这一点，就像我们不了解的另一种文化中的人们一样。
It's very easy to assign attribution to a class that you're very unfamiliar with.
将归因分配给您非常不熟悉的类是很容易的。
So I think the psychedelics got that attribution with this very rare neurological susceptibility, the way that alcohol didn't.
所以我认为致幻剂具有这种非常罕见的神经敏感性，而酒精却没有。
So I think it's not specific to psychedelics, but we don't really know we need, but we'd look at it and our research have never seen an example of it.
所以我认为这并不是迷幻药所特有的，但我们并不真正知道我们需要什么，但我们会研究它，但我们的研究从未见过这样的例子。
But flashbacks can mean a number of other things.
但闪回可能意味着许多其他事情。
I think the most common thing people experience is what we call state-dependent learning.
我认为人们经历的最常见的事情就是我们所说的状态依赖学习。
It's returning yourself to a similar context can bring back the same thoughts and emotions as the experience.
让自己回到类似的环境中可以带回与体验相同的想法和情感。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
So someone used mushrooms a week ago, now they do something like they smoke some cannabis, or they take a warm bath or they're simply relaxed.
所以有人一周前用过蘑菇，现在他们做了一些事情，比如吸大麻，或者洗个热水澡，或者只是放松一下。
It seems to come out of the blue, and all of a sudden these ...
一切似乎出乎意料，突然之间……
Or they follow a thought trail that takes them ...
或者他们遵循一条思想轨迹，引导他们……
That reminds them of their ...
这让他们想起了他们的...
And they find themselves in that same experience again.
他们发现自己再次经历了同样的经历。
I think that's more state-dependent learning.
我认为这更多的是依赖于状态的学习。
It's not the distressing component that is in and it's not typically not perceptual.
这并不是令人痛苦的部分，也不是通常不感性的。
And then another class are just sort of perceptual anomalies within a day or two following the experience, which is not HPPD.
然后另一类只是体验后一两天内的感知异常，这不是 HPPD。
Most people have joked that this is a free trip.
大多数人开玩笑说这是一次免费旅行。
You might see a few trails or halos the day afterwards.
第二天您可能会看到一些痕迹或光环。
It doesn't last longer than that and it doesn't screw you up.
它不会持续比这更长的时间，而且不会把你搞砸。
It's kind of fun like, "Oh yeah, I'm still seeing some trip." Most people will say.
这有点有趣，就像“哦，是的，我还在参加一些旅行。”大多数人都会说。
So it could mean any of those things.
所以它可能意味着任何这些事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Got it.
明白了。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
So flashback is ...
所以闪回是...
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Interesting.
有趣。
No, I appreciate you clarifying that.
不，我很感谢你澄清这一点。
I mean, one very common misconception about neuroplasticity is that it's an event, and it's not an event, it's a process.
我的意思是，关于神经可塑性的一个非常常见的误解是，它是一个事件，而它不是一个事件，而是一个过程。
And we have no understanding of the duration of that process.
我们不了解该过程的持续时间。
However, the experience of any drug or any life experience, even a trauma, or a wonderful experience or a psychedelic experience, doesn't matter, sets in motion a series of dominoes that fall.
然而，任何药物的经历或任何生活经历，甚至是一次创伤，或一次美妙的经历或一次迷幻经历，都不重要，会引发一系列倒下的多米诺骨牌。
And it's the falling of those dominoes that we call neuroplasticity.
正是这些多米诺骨牌的倒塌，我们称之为神经可塑性。
I mean the reshaping of circuits could take years.
我的意思是，电路的重塑可能需要数年时间。
We don't know.
我们不知道。
It's the trigger.
这是触发器。
And then there's the actual change.
然后是实际的变化。
And so I think that some of what you described could be literally the reordering of circuitry that in some individuals might extend longer than others.
所以我认为你所描述的一些内容实际上可能是电路的重新排序，在某些人身上可能会比其他人延长更长的时间。
And there is one phenomenon that I've been told people experience and I'm wondering whether ...
有人告诉我人们经历过一种现象，我想知道是否......
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I've been told people experience, and I'm wondering whether or not any of the patients you've worked with, or people in your, trials have ever reported this.
有人告诉我人们有过这样的经历，我想知道与你一起工作的患者或参与你的试验的人是否曾经报告过这一点。
I've never done ayahuasca, which I'm assuming has some overlap with the serotonin system.
我从来没有做过死藤水，我认为它与血清素系统有一些重叠。
Probably hits a variety of systems-
可能会影响各种系统-
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
So it's DMT-
所以这是DMT-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The DMT system or-
DMT 系统或-
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
The active-
活跃的-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Excuse me, that's right.
对不起，是这样的。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
It's MAO inhibitors that allow the DMT to be orally.
MAO 抑制剂使 DMT 可以口服。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Of course, of course.
当然，当然。
Right, I should have recalled that.
是的，我应该记得的。
Absolutely.
绝对地。
Well, I've never done it, but a number of people I know that have done ayahuasca, as well as people I know who have done MDMA, report an increased sense of what is sometimes called ASMR, or these autonomic sensory meridian reflexes, which is ...
嗯，我从来没有这样做过，但是我认识的一些服用过死藤水的人，以及我认识的服用过摇头丸的人，都报告说，有时被称为 ASMR 的感觉增强了，或者这些自主感觉经络反射，这是......
And it's interesting, a lot of people have these naturally, and they hide these.
有趣的是，很多人天生就有这些，但他们隐藏了这些。
It's actually something that many people keep hidden to themselves.
这实际上是许多人对自己隐瞒的事情。
I'll just ask you if you can do it.
我就问你能不能做到。
So some people are able to pass a shiver down their spine or up their spine consciously.
因此，有些人能够有意识地将颤抖沿着脊柱或向上传递。
Like you can kind of ...
就像你可以有点...
I'm able to actually pass a shiver up my spine.
我真的能感觉到脊椎发凉。
I actually learned how to do this when I was a kid on a hot day.
事实上，当我还是个孩子的时候，在炎热的天气里，我就学会了如何做到这一点。
I was standing on a field in sports camp.
我站在运动营的操场上。
I was like, "It's really hot here." And I could actually create a cooled perception.
我当时想，“这里真的很热。”我实际上可以创造一种冷静的感觉。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I told someone this once and then this led to a discussion of, "Oh, I can do it.
我曾经告诉过某人这件事，然后这引发了一场讨论：“哦，我能做到。
But I always hid that from people because it's actually somewhat pleasurable." And this is a well-known phenomenon, ASMR.
但我总是向人们隐瞒这一点，因为这实际上有点令人愉快。”这就是一个众所周知的现象，ASMR。
And some people I know who have taken MDMA therapeutically, or ayahuasca, will report that they feel great relief from this.
我认识的一些服用过摇头丸（MDMA）或死藤水的人会报告说，他们从中感到了极大的缓解。
They can generate these autonomic reflexes through their body more readily.
他们可以更容易地通过身体产生这些自主反射。
Probably, I'm guessing, because they were able to tune into a deeper sense of somatic self.
我猜，可能是因为他们能够调整到更深层的躯体自我意识。
Now on the Internet, ASMR, if you look it up, it's a little bit like the bath salt thing, but in the other direction.
现在在互联网上，ASMR，如果你查一下，它有点像浴盐的东西，但方向相反。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There are people that pay ...
还有人付钱...
Let's just say there are accounts on YouTube that have many, many millions of viewers of people that will whisper to them about ...
假设 YouTube 上的一些帐户拥有数以百万计的观众，他们会向他们低声谈论……
For instance, there's people that will go listen to, it seems to be women in particular, whispering about car mechanics, or something, or about ...
例如，有人会去听，尤其是女性，窃窃私语谈论汽车修理工，或者其他什么，或者关于……
Or scratching.
或者抓挠。
So certain sounds will do this, whispering, tapping, finger tapping.
所以某些声音会做到这一点，如耳语、敲击声、手指敲击声。
And people experience immense pleasure from it.
人们从中体验到巨大的乐趣。
It's not really sexual pleasure, but it's this deep core of the body.
这并不是真正的性快感，但它是身体深处的核心。
It's the autonomic nervous system down tin the curve of the spine.
这是脊柱曲线下方的自主神经系统。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
Probably what a certain number of people would call kundalini, which is another one scientifically who-
也许某些人会称之为昆达里尼，这在科学上是另一种——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, that's right.
是的，没错。
And people who do long-duration kundalini breathing sessions, many of them will report later feeling as if their perception of self is outside of their head.
而那些进行长时间昆达里尼呼吸课程的人，他们中的许多人会在事后报告说，感觉好像他们的自我感知超出了他们的头脑。
That they're literally walking ...
他们实际上是在走路......
It's very uncomfortable for them, that they feel like they're walking around with their sense of self extended beyond the body.
这对他们来说非常不舒服，他们感觉自己在走来走去，自我意识超出了身体。
And this is a clinically described neurologic phenomenon.
这是一种临床描述的神经系统现象。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
Have any studies been done?
有做过研究吗？
I would imagine that person might actually ...
我想那个人可能实际上...
Would they duck?
他们会躲避吗？
Oh, what?
哦，什么？
That would be an interesting ...
那将是一个有趣的...
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That'd be the kind of thing my lab would want to get into.
这就是我的实验室想要从事的事情。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
Yeah, their body could clear, but their projection wouldn't?
是啊，他们的身体可以清除，但他们的投影不会？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, the sense of self.
是的，自我意识。
I mean there's a well-known phenomenon.
我的意思是有一个众所周知的现象。
In a few individuals, it's very sad, where people actually avidly seek out amputation of their limbs because their limbs, they feel, don't belong to their body.
对于一些人来说，这是非常悲伤的，人们实际上热衷于寻求截肢，因为他们觉得他们的四肢不属于他们的身体。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
Oh yeah.
哦，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This is a very sad, and fortunately very rare, but also very sad condition.
这是一种非常令人悲伤、幸运的是非常罕见、但也非常令人悲伤的状况。
Anyway, I think the core of this conversation that we're drilling into is this notion of reordering the self.
不管怎样，我认为我们正在深入探讨的这次对话的核心是重新排序自我的概念。
And it's a relief to me to know that flashbacks are not something that is, forgive the term, baked in to the psychedelic experience.
让我松了口气的是，我知道闪回并不是融入迷幻体验中的东西，请原谅这个词。
And I suppose that's a good segue to ask about other sorts of drugs.
我想这是一个很好的话题来询问其他种类的药物。
Having said "baked in," the temptation is to go to marijuana or cannabis.
说到“烘焙”，诱惑就是去吸食大麻或大麻。
But if we could, I'd like to just ask about some of the more dopaminergic compounds.
但如果可以的话，我想问一下一些更具多巴胺能的化合物。
In particular, MDMA.
特别是摇头丸。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
My understanding is that MDMA is a purely synthetic compound.
我的理解是 MDMA 是一种纯合成化合物。
That you're not going to find MDMA in nature.
你不会在自然界中找到 MDMA。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
So far.
到目前为止。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So far.
到目前为止。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
DMT was first synthesized in the lab, and then we thought it didn't exist in nature.
DMT最初是在实验室合成的，然后我们认为它在自然界中不存在。
And then Richard Schultes found it everywhere.
然后理查德·舒尔茨发现它无处不在。
So who knows, a plant out there might be making MDMA, but as far as we know now, no.
所以谁知道那里的工厂可能会制造 MDMA，但据我们现在所知，没有。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
And we'll talk about DMT and its sources within the body, but MDMA could exist elsewhere, but it has been synthesized.
我们将讨论 DMT 及其在体内的来源，但 MDMA 可能存在于其他地方，但它已经被合成。
And my understanding is that MDMA leads to very robust increases in both dopamine and serotonin simultaneously, which from a neural network's perspective is a very unusual situation.
我的理解是，MDMA 会导致多巴胺和血清素同时急剧增加，从神经网络的角度来看，这是一种非常不寻常的情况。
Normally, because dopamine puts us in this exteroceptive, looking outside ourselves, seeking things in the world beyond the skin, our own skin; and dopamine, excuse me, serotonin tends to focus us inward.
通常情况下，因为多巴胺使我们处于这种外感受状态，向外看，寻找皮肤之外的世界，我们自己的皮肤；多巴胺，对不起，血清素会让我们集中注意力。
Those are almost mutually exclusive neurochemical states, though they're always at different levels.
这些几乎是相互排斥的神经化学状态，尽管它们总是处于不同的水平。
So why would it be that having this increased dopamine and increased serotonin would provide an experience that is beneficial?
那么为什么增加多巴胺和血清素会提供有益的体验呢？
And to the extent that you can describe it, how do you think that experience differs from the sorts of experiences that people have on psilocybin or more serotonergic agents?
在您可以描述的范围内，您认为这种体验与人们服用裸盖菇素或更多血清素药物的体验有何不同？
Just broadly speaking?
只是笼统地说？
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
Yeah, in terms of the effects generally on serotonin and dopamine, I can only speculate.
是的，就对血清素和多巴胺的总体影响而言，我只能推测。
Is that dopaminergic component necessary for, let's say, we know that the amygdala is less reactive under acute effects, and that may play a role in ...
比方说，我们知道杏仁核在急性作用下的反应性较低，而这可能在......中发挥作用，多巴胺能成分是必需的吗？
There's less control from the amygdala, in terms of one's experience of memory.
就一个人的记忆体验而言，杏仁核的控制较少。
So it may be part of this reprocessing, this reconsolidation of these memories in a different way, where the amygdala's not going crazy, saying freak out, fight or flight.
所以这可能是这种再处理的一部分，这种以不同方式重新巩固这些记忆的过程，杏仁核不会发疯，说“吓坏了，战斗或逃跑”。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well I should have said, it seems like MDMA is being used, clinically anyway, mainly for trauma, not just for depression.
好吧，我应该说，无论如何，临床上看起来 MDMA 正在被使用，主要是为了治疗创伤，而不仅仅是治疗抑郁症。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
Although part of the ...
虽然部分...
We really don't know.
我们真的不知道。
It may be that MDMA is great for depression and some of these other, and it may be that, and I'm going to be looking at this soon, that psilocybin is great for treating PTSD.
MDMA 可能对治疗抑郁症和其他一些疾病非常有效，而且我很快就会看到，裸盖菇素可能对治疗 PTSD 非常有效。
A lot of underground therapists say that, underground psychedelic therapists.
很多地下治疗师都这么说，地下迷幻治疗师。
So we don't really know yet-
所以我们还不知道——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What do you mean by underground?
你说的地下是什么意思？
Oh, because they're-
哦，因为他们是——
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
People doing illegal ...
人们做违法的事...
But more like a professional therapist would, it's just illegal.
但更像是专业治疗师的做法，这是非法的。
And this is a growing thing.
这是一个不断增长的事情。
So we don't really know which.
所以我们真的不知道是哪一个。
Speculating, but it may be that MDMA, for a broader number of people, is better for trauma because the chances of having an extremely challenging experience, what I call the bad trip, really freaking out, is much lower with MDMA.
推测，但对于更广泛的人来说，摇头丸可能更适合治疗创伤，因为使用摇头丸后，经历极具挑战性的经历（我称之为糟糕的旅行，真的吓坏了）的机会要低得多。
People can have bad trips, but they're of a different nature.
人们可能会经历糟糕的旅行，但他们的性质不同。
It's not freaking out because all of reality is shattering, and it's less of this ...
这并不是吓坏了，因为所有的现实都在支离破碎，而且不是这样的……
It can take so many forms with the classic psychedelics, but typically you'll hear something like, "I didn't know it was going to be like this." No matter how hard you tried to prepare them, that this is like "Get me off this ride."
经典迷幻药可以采取多种形式，但通常你会听到这样的话：“我不知道会是这样。”无论你多么努力地让他们做好准备，这就像“让我离开这趟旅程”。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You're talking about LSD or psilocybin?
你是在谈论LSD还是裸盖菇素？
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
LSD, psilocybin, ayahuasca.
LSD、裸盖菇素、死藤水。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Bad trip
糟糕的旅行
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
Yeah, yeah.
是啊，是啊。
And just this sense of, "I'm going insane.
就是这种感觉，“我快要疯了。
This is so far beyond anything I've ever experienced and it's scaring the shit out of me.
这远远超出了我经历过的任何事情，这让我害怕极了。
I don't have a toe hold on anything, even that I exist as an entity." And that can be really ...
即使我作为一个实体存在，我也无法抓住任何东西。”那真的可以...
I think frankly, experientially, that's the gateway to both the transcendental mystical experiences, the sense of unity with all things, which we know, our data suggests, is related to long-term positive outcomes.
坦率地说，从经验上讲，这是通向超验神秘体验和与万物统一的感觉的门户，我们知道，我们的数据表明，这与长期的积极成果有关。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wait, I want to make sure I understand.
等等，我想确认一下我是否理解。
So you're saying the bad trip can be related to the transcendental experience?
所以你是说糟糕的旅行可能与超然的经历有关？
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
Right, I think those are both ...
是的，我认为这两个都是...
Speculating, but you have to pass through this reality shattering, including your sense of self.
猜测，但你必须经历这个现实的破碎，包括你的自我意识。
And one can handle that in one of two ways.
人们可以通过两种方式之一来处理这个问题。
You can either completely surrender to it, or you can try to hang on.
你可以完全屈服于它，也可以尝试坚持下去。
And if you try to hang on, it's going to be more like a bad trip.
如果你试图坚持下去，这将更像是一次糟糕的旅行。
So again, I wish there was more, and hopefully there will be more experimentation.
所以，我再次希望有更多，并希望能有更多的实验。
There's a lot going on here in the black box in terms of the operant behavior, of how you are within yourself choosing to handle letting go.
黑匣子里发生了很多关于操作行为的事情，关于你内心如何选择处理放手的事情。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
And eventually we'll be able to see this in real time with brain imaging.
最终我们将能够通过大脑成像实时看到这一点。
Ah, there they are surrendering to the psychedelic experience.
啊，他们正在向迷幻体验投降。
Here they are trying to hold on.
在这里，他们正在努力坚持下去。
But we're not there yet.
但我们还没有到那一步。
But I think, through clinical observation, it seems pretty clear that something like that is going on.
但我认为，通过临床观察，很明显类似的事情正在发生。
And certain drugs like DMT, smoked DMT, can be so strong.
某些药物如 DMT、烟熏 DMT 的效力可能如此之强。
The reason I think that can be so extraordinary, you can compare to the others, because it forces people.
我认为它之所以如此非凡，你可以与其他人进行比较，因为它迫使人们。
There is no choice to hang out in the-
没有选择去闲逛-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I've never done it.
我从来没有这样做过。
I was told that DMT is a high-speed locomotive into the psychedelic experience and out of the psychedelic experience.
有人告诉我，DMT是一辆进入迷幻体验和走出迷幻体验的高速火车头。
And there's no ability to hold onto the self while you're in the peak phase.
当你处于巅峰阶段时，你没有能力保持自我。
Is that correct?
这是正确的吗？
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
A lot of people say that, but Terrence McKenna, who's the classic bard on DMT effects, he would say the sense of self was intact.
很多人都这么说，但泰伦斯·麦肯纳（Terrence McKenna）是 DMT 效果方面的经典吟游诗人，他会说自我意识完好无损。
But everything else, the sensorium and what you navigated, what you oriented towards, everything else changed, basically.
但其他一切，感觉中枢和你的导航，你的方向，其他一切基本上都改变了。
But it's hard to ...
但很难...
when everything's changing...
当一切都在改变……
it's hard to say what is the self that's changing?
很难说正在改变的自我是什么？
What is the rest of the world?
世界其他地方是什么？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, and language is totally deficient to describe experience anyway, much less on a psychedelic.
好吧，无论如何，语言完全不足以描述体验，更不用说迷幻了。
What is McKenna's background?
麦肯纳的背景是什么？
What is his qualification for being this, as you referred, this bard of DMT and psychedelics?
正如你所说，他有什么资格成为这个 DMT 和迷幻剂的吟游诗人？
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
And we're talking about Terrence, and there's also the brother Dennis, whom I know, who's-
我们正在谈论泰伦斯，还有我认识的丹尼斯兄弟，他是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Can only imagine what .
只能想象什么。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
They're brothers.
他们是兄弟。
Terrence passed away years, a couple decades ago now, but he's the one who's known as being a bard.
特伦斯已经去世好几年了，几十年前了，但他是一个被称为吟游诗人的人。
And you can find hundreds if not thousands of hours of him on the lecture circuit in the '80s and '90s on YouTube.
您可以在 YouTube 上找到他在 80 年代和 90 年代巡回演讲的数百甚至数千个小时。
But his background was really ...
但他的背景实在是……
Oh gosh, I don't recall what his college degree was in.
天哪，我不记得他的大学学位是什么了。
But he basically, when he was 19, he traveled to South America.
但基本上，当他 19 岁时，他就去了南美洲。
And actually on the initial trip with his brother, who was even younger than him, with some other friends and just in search for a DMT snuff that they had read about in the Harvard archives, from the work of Schultes from a generation before.
事实上，在最初的旅行中，他和他的兄弟（比他更年轻）和其他一些朋友一起，只是为了寻找他们在哈佛档案中读到的 DMT 鼻烟，来自上一代舒尔茨的作品。
But they had discovered all of these mushrooms growing down there, the psilocybin mushrooms, which they recognized and just took a lot of mushrooms.
但他们发现了所有这些生长在那里的蘑菇，即裸盖菇素蘑菇，他们认出了这种蘑菇，并拿走了很多蘑菇。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And talked about it.
并谈到了这一点。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
Talked about it.
谈论过它。
And Terrence was basically a very intelligent, very well read, in literature and culture, person.
泰伦斯基本上是一个非常聪明、博览群书、精通文学和文化的人。
He was the next generation's Tim Leary, someone who could really speak ...
他是下一代的蒂姆·利里，一个真正能说话的人……
Get a little closer to the magnitude of what the psychedelic experience was like for people.
更接近人们的迷幻体验的严重程度。
And he served, liked Leary, somewhat of an advocate.
和利里一样，他在某种程度上是一位倡导者。
I mean he would tell people, "Folks, you could see the equivalent of a UFO landing on the White House lawn.
我的意思是他会告诉人们，“各位，你们可以看到相当于不明飞行物降落在白宫草坪上的情况。
It's right there.
它就在那里。
It'll take five minutes, it'll shake everything in your reality." He would goad people into doing it.
这需要五分钟，它会撼动你现实中的一切。”他会鼓励人们这样做。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well certainly science and clinical medicine are just but two lenses with which to explore these things in life.
当然，科学和临床医学只是探索生活中这些事情的两个镜头。
But part of the reason I ask is, I feel like in the world of health and fitness, you have this very extreme condition of Arnold Schwarzeneggers and bodybuilders who have two percent body fat, and they look like, to most people, they look kind of freakish.
但我问这个问题的部分原因是，我觉得在健康和健身领域，阿诺德·施瓦辛格和健美运动员的情况非常极端，他们的体脂为百分之二，对大多数人来说，他们看起来有点怪异。
Especially now, right?
尤其是现在，对吧？
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
Oh, especially now.
哦，尤其是现在。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Especially now.
尤其是现在。
And yet-
然而——
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
Made Arnold look regular.
让阿诺德看起来很正常。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
Back in his day.
回到他的时代。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And you have contortionists who can put themselves into a small box and wrap themselves into a pretzel.
还有柔术演员，他们可以把自己放进一个小盒子里，然后把自己包裹成椒盐卷饼。
But from those two very extreme subculture practices that, I don't know anything about contortionism really, except that they get really bendy, but it's a community that included a lifestyle practices and nutritional practices, and drug practices.
但从这两种非常极端的亚文化实践来看，我对柔术一无所知，除了它们变得非常弯曲之外，但这是一个包括生活方式实践、营养实践和药物实践的社区。
From those very extreme subcultures, there's been an export, which is that weight training is healthy.
从那些非常极端的亚文化中，有一个出口，那就是重量训练是健康的。
The general public has done that.
普通大众已经这样做了。
Or that yoga is healthy, so contortionism to yoga, et cetera.
或者说瑜伽是健康的，所以柔术是瑜伽，等等。
And I feel like a similar thing is happening in the realm of psychedelics, where it was Leary and Huxley.
我觉得类似的事情也发生在迷幻药领域，就是利里和赫胥黎。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I mean look, I'm from the Bay Area, I'm not far from the Menlo Park VA, where "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest" is basically based on, right, Ken Kesey and those guys.
我的意思是，你看，我来自湾区，离弗吉尼亚州门洛帕克不远，那里的《飞越疯人院》基本上是根据肯·凯西和那些家伙改编的。
And there has been an attempt at creating this movement toward openness about psychedelics and their positive effects, that this has happened before.
人们曾试图发起一场关于迷幻药及其积极作用的开放运动，这种情况以前就发生过。
The difference is that now there are people like you inside the walls of the university or publishing peer-reviewed studies, and things of that sort.
不同之处在于，现在大学里也有像你这样的人，或者发表同行评审的研究，诸如此类的事情。
The reason I asked about McKenna was it seems like McKenna and his brother are but just two of many people, Michael Pollan, et cetera, who have no real formal training in biology or psychology.
我询问麦肯纳的原因是，麦肯纳和他的兄弟似乎只是迈克尔·波伦等许多人中的两个，他们没有接受过真正的生物学或心理学方面的正式培训。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The other guys who were at universities lost their jobs.
其他在大学读书的人都失业了。
They were actually removed from places like Harvard and other universities for their cavalier explorations.
事实上，他们因为傲慢的探索而被哈佛和其他大学开除了。
And now things are returning.
现在一切正在回归。
So in the same way that body building led to weight training in every corner gym, men, women and children, and contortionism is one extreme, but people generally think that yoga is a pretty healthy practice, right?
因此，就像健身导致每个角落的健身房都进行重量训练一样，无论男女老少，柔术是一个极端，但人们普遍认为瑜伽是一种非常健康的练习，对吗？
These are a matter of degrees.
这些都是程度问题。
And now here you are inside the walls of a very highly respected university, Johns Hopkins, you're on the medical school side of the undergrad.
现在你在一所非常受人尊敬的大学约翰·霍普金斯大学的围墙内，你是医学院的本科生。
So in the med school, which is a serious health institution.
所以在医学院，这是一个严肃的卫生机构。
The question is to me, what are the valuable exports, and where does the extreme lie?
对我来说问题是，什么是有价值的出口，极端在哪里？
I mean, clearly there's a problem with tinkering with reality through pharmacology.
我的意思是，通过药理学修补现实显然存在问题。
And there's a benefit, it sounds like, to tinkering with reality through pharmacology.
听起来，通过药理学修补现实是有好处的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And what's so striking to me is this is the elements of atypical experience.
令我印象深刻的是，这是非典型经历的要素。
Atypical representation of the self.
自我的非典型表现。
So for the average person, or for kids that are hearing this, kids that are in their teens, right?
那么对于普通人，或者对于听到这个的孩子，十几岁的孩子，对吧？
I want to talk about, what are the dangers of psychedelics?
我想谈谈，迷幻药有哪些危害？
This is something you don't hear a lot about these days, and it's not because I'm antipsychedelic at all, but what are the dangers?
这些天你很少听到这种事，这根本不是因为我是抗迷幻药，但有什么危险呢？
If a kid or adult has a predisposition toward, let's say, psychotic thinking, right, or auditory hallucinations, or is on the Asperger's side of the autism spectrum, is there an increased risk of bringing the mind into these states?
如果一个孩子或成年人有精神病性思维或幻听倾向，或者属于自闭症谱系中的阿斯伯格综合症，那么将思想带入这些状态的风险是否会增加？
Because it sounds like a very labile situation.
因为这听起来是一个非常不稳定的情况。
So could we talk a little bit about that?
那么我们可以谈谈这个吗？
And are there classes of these different drugs, whether or not it be MDMA, LSD, or DMT, that you think are particularly sharp blades and therefore need to be wielded particularly carefully?
这些不同的药物中是否有一些类别，无论是 MDMA、LSD 还是 DMT，您认为它们是特别锋利的刀片，因此需要特别小心地使用？
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
Yeah.
是的。
So these can be profoundly destabilizing experiences, and ones that ideally are had in a safe container.
因此，这些可能会严重破坏稳定，而最好是在安全的容器中进行。
What are the relevant dangers and what can we do to mitigate those?
有哪些相关危险以及我们可以采取哪些措施来减轻这些危险？
So there's two biggies.
所以有两个大人物。
One, and I've already mentioned, it's people with very severe psychiatric illness.
一，我已经提到过，这是患有非常严重的精神疾病的人。
Not depression, not anxiety.
不是抑郁，不是焦虑。
I'm talking about psychotic disorders like schizophrenia, or mania as part of bipolar disorder.
我说的是精神分裂症等精神障碍，或者躁郁症的一部分的躁狂症。
And diagnostically, this has shifted.
从诊断角度来看，这种情况已经发生了变化。
So it's a little hard to say how many people today with bipolar would've been labeled with schizophrenia back in the '60s when some of this early research, or just clinical observation, was done.
因此，很难说今天有多少双相情感障碍患者会在 60 年代被贴上精神分裂症的标签，当时进行了一些早期研究，或者只是临床观察。
So it seems very clear that folks with a predisposition or active disease, they could be destabilized.
因此，很明显，患有易感性或活动性疾病的人可能会不稳定。
And so some of the cases that we know, I always think of Sid Barrett, the first singer of Pink Floyd, seems pretty clear, although I think the family-
因此，我们知道的一些案例，我总是想起平克·弗洛伊德乐队的第一位歌手席德·巴雷特（Sid Barrett），这似乎很清楚，尽管我认为这个家庭 -
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I don't know what happened there.
我不知道那里发生了什么事。
I should be; sorry, Pink Floyd fans.
我应该是；对不起，平克·弗洛伊德的粉丝们。
The songs are just really long.
这些歌曲真的很长。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
You're more of a punk guy, right?
你更像是一个朋克人，对吧？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
So I've got my foot in a lot of worlds, definitely in part in the Floyd world.
所以我涉足了很多世界，其中肯定有一部分是弗洛伊德的世界。
But he basically went crazy early on.
但他很早就发疯了。
I don't think his family ever admitted it, but he developed schizophrenia, classic pattern.
我认为他的家人从未承认过这一点，但他患有精神分裂症，典型的模式。
And he was doing a lot of LSD.
他吸了很多LSD。
But like a lot of these cases, it looked like he was showing all of the signs of some hints that he had that susceptibility before.
但就像很多这样的案例一样，他似乎表现出了所有迹象，表明他以前也有过这种敏感性。
And often this is hard to disentangle what causes what, because when do people typically, not always, but develop?
通常很难理清什么导致什么，因为人们通常（并非总是）什么时候发展？
When's the modal period for first break?
第一次休息的模式期是什么时候？
It's adolescence, early adulthood.
现在是青春期，成年初期。
And when do people start playing with drugs?
人们什么时候开始吸毒？
Same exact time period.
相同的确切时间段。
So it can be hard to disentangle, but it seems pretty clear.
因此，很难理清这一点，但看起来很清楚。
Now, I should also say there are cases of folks with schizophrenia that say psychedelics have helped them.
现在，我还应该说，有些精神分裂症患者说迷幻药对他们有帮助。
There's anecdotes for everything, though; it's a big world.
不过，凡事都有轶事。这是一个很大的世界。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do people around those schizophrenics say it's helped them, or just-
那些精神分裂症患者周围的人是否说这对他们有帮助，或者只是——
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
I don't know.
我不知道。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because when schizophrenics say things, you have to-
因为当精神分裂症患者说话时，你必须——
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
Yeah, weigh it.
对啊，掂量一下。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I mean, with all due compassion and respect for schizophrenia, it's a disorder of thinking.
我的意思是，尽管对精神分裂症抱有应有的同情和尊重，但它是一种思维障碍。
So if they're saying it helped them ...
所以如果他们说这对他们有帮助......
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
How?
怎么办？
Yeah, can you trust them?
是的，你能相信他们吗？
Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if there was some kernel of truth in some cases.
是的，如果在某些情况下有一些事实的核心，我不会感到惊讶。
But they're just so ...
但他们就是这样...
It seems very clear that the other side is there too.
很明显，对方也在那里。
And that if there ever is a therapeutic potential there for those disorders, that that shouldn't be the first thing on our list.
如果这些疾病有治疗潜力，那它不应该是我们清单上的第一件事。
We need to learn a lot more, because of the level of risk, before we start doing research to see if psilocybin can help with schizophrenia.
由于风险程度，我们需要了解更多信息，然后才能开始研究裸盖菇素是否有助于治疗精神分裂症。
I don't think that ...
我不认为...
That may never be the case, but even if it is, you'd have to be even more cautious and figure some more things out first with some of these other disorders.
情况可能永远不会如此，但即使是这样，您也必须更加谨慎，并首先针对其他一些疾病找出更多问题。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What about bipolar disorder?
双相情感障碍怎么办？
Can it be exacerbated by these?
这些会加剧病情吗？
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
Yeah.
是的。
And it may be that the manifestation of people having prolonged psychiatric issues after a psychedelic experience, as atypical as that is, when that happens, it may be that that might be more like a manic episode than a psychotic episode.
可能是人们在经历迷幻经历后长期出现精神问题的表现，尽管这种情况不典型，但当这种情况发生时，可能更像是躁狂发作而不是精神病发作。
And that can be a blurry line.
这可能是一条模糊的界限。
And the folklore is that people go on a trip and they never come back.
民间传说人们出去旅行后就再也没有回来。
That's clearly not the case, because the drug is metabolized like for anyone else, and the next day there's virtually nothing in their system.
显然情况并非如此，因为药物像其他人一样被代谢，第二天他们的系统中几乎什么也没有。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But it reshapes circuitry.
但它重塑了电路。
I mean ...
我的意思是...
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
Right.
对。
And I really do think, much like the positive long-term effects, that this class of problems is related to the experience, and the destabilization that can happen from that experience if it's not in the right container.
我确实认为，就像积极的长期影响一样，此类问题与体验有关，以及如果不在正确的容器中，该体验可能会导致不稳定。
And again, these people are susceptible to ...
再说一次，这些人很容易受到......
Some people with that psychotic predisposition, they were lucky to be born to a great family, stable environment.
有些人有精神病倾向，他们很幸运出生在一个伟大的家庭，稳定的环境。
They maybe never have a full break, or the one that they have is not nearly as bad as someone who's homeless and is coming from all kinds of early childhood trauma.
他们可能永远不会有充分的休息，或者他们所拥有的休息并不像无家可归且遭受各种早期童年创伤的人那么糟糕。
The disease is probably going to be far worse.
这种疾病可能会更加严重。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
So having a psychedelic experience is like one of those destabilizing experiences.
因此，迷幻体验就像是那些不稳定的体验之一。
Now, fortunately, it's really easy to identify those people, and we even err on the side of extreme caution by eliminating people with, say, a first-degree relative.
幸运的是，现在识别这些人真的很容易，我们甚至会极其谨慎地排除那些有一级亲属的人。
In some studies, even a second-degree relative.
在一些研究中，甚至是二级亲属。
Given the heritability, there's some increased chance if your brother or your ...
考虑到遗传性，如果你的兄弟或你的......
Yeah.
是的。
So in an abundance of caution, even limiting the ...
因此，在非常谨慎的情况下，甚至限制......
I think eventually, if it's approved for use, FDA use, that we could dial back on that as we learn more.
我认为最终，如果它被批准使用，FDA 使用，我们可以在了解更多信息后重新考虑这一点。
I think it's, again, overly cautious, which is probably appropriate-
我认为这再次过于谨慎，这可能是适当的-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But you're doing early stage clinical trials, so ...
但你正在进行早期临床试验，所以......
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
Yeah, it's the appropriate place to start at this point in time.
是的，这是现在开始的合适地点。
But if you give a SCID or another structured psychiatric interview with a clinician sitting down with this person for a few hours to delve into their history, you can very reliably determine if this person has either a psychotic disorder, or bipolar disorder, or a strong predisposition.
但是，如果您对临床医生进行 SCID 或其他结构化精神病学访谈，与此人坐下来几个小时，深入研究他们的病史，您就可以非常可靠地确定此人是否患有精神障碍、躁郁症或强烈的倾向。
So you can screen for that, and that's how you address that.
所以你可以对此进行筛选，这就是你解决这个问题的方法。
The far more likely danger is the bad trip.
更有可能发生的危险是糟糕的旅程。
Anyone can have this, the most psychologically healthy person in the world probably.
任何人都可以拥有这个，可能是世界上心理最健康的人。
You jack the dose high enough, and especially in a less than an ideal environment, you can have a bad trip.
如果您将剂量调得足够高，尤其是在不太理想的环境中，您的旅行可能会很糟糕。
You even get it in an ideal environment like ours.
您甚至可以在像我们这样的理想环境中获得它。
At a high dose, around 30 milligrams of psilocybin, after the best preparation we can provide, about a third of people will say essentially, at some point, they have a bad trip.
在高剂量（大约 30 毫克裸盖菇素）下，在我们可以提供的最佳准备之后，大约三分之一的人基本上会说，在某些时候，他们的旅行很糟糕。
And we-
而我们——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
At some point within the entire journey?
在整个旅程的某个时刻？
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
Right.
对。
Now, they could have one of the most beautiful experiences of their life, sometimes, a couple minutes later.
现在，有时几分钟后，他们就可以拥有一生中最美好的经历之一。
But at some point they had a sense of strong anxiety, fear, losing their mind, feeling trapped, something like that.
但在某些时候，他们有一种强烈的焦虑、恐惧、失去理智、感觉被困住之类的感觉。
Now typically, when people have that, when they're just taking on their own, like a lot of things, they're fine, they get through it.
现在通常情况下，当人们有这种情况时，当他们只是自己承担时，就像很多事情一样，他们很好，他们会度过难关。
They're more likely to be better off if they're not having to navigate the streets of Manhattan.
如果他们不必在曼哈顿的街道上穿梭，他们的生活可能会更好。
And if they're with other people, with friends, better that those friends aren't also dealing with their own psychedelic experience.
如果他们和其他人、朋友在一起，最好那些朋友也不要处理他们自己的迷幻体验。
But probably having some friend of any type, whatever they're on, there, is better than having nothing.
但可能有一些任何类型的朋友，无论他们在哪里，都比什么都没有好。
So very dependent on context.
所以非常依赖于上下文。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
And so the tough thing here in conveying to the public is that a lot of folks will say, "Man, I've taken psychedelics hundreds of times, and this is, like, you're fear mongering, and you're exaggerating the danger there." So I want to say it is atypical, but sometimes, and I have a file folder that grows larger every year of these cases, either in the medical literature or from the news, of people that freak out on a psychedelic, and they get hurt or they die.
因此，向公众传达的最困难的事情是，很多人会说，“伙计，我已经服用了数百次迷幻药，这就像，你在散布恐惧，你夸大了那里的危险。”所以我想说这是非典型的，但有时，我的文件夹每年都在变大，无论是在医学文献中还是在新闻中，都是那些因迷幻剂而惊慌失措的人，他们受伤或死亡。
They run into traffic, they fall from a height, whether they thought they could fly, or whether they just fell like you can do when you're drunk or you're intoxicated on any substance.
他们撞上车流，从高处坠落，无论他们认为自己可以飞，还是只是像喝醉或喝醉了任何物质时那样坠落。
Sometimes that's unclear.
有时这并不清楚。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
Or gosh, one of the craziest cases was a kid, an 18-year-old or so in Oregon several years back, that just ...
或者天哪，最疯狂的案例之一是几年前俄勒冈州的一名 18 岁左右的孩子，那只是......
He even wrote about, "I want to take the biggest ..." He had done mushrooms before.
他甚至写道，“我想拿最大的……”他以前做过蘑菇。
"I want to take a heroic dose, the biggest dose I've ever taken." He ended up just totally out of it, ended up in a neighbor's house.
“我想服用英雄剂量，这是我服用过的最大剂量。”他最终完全摆脱了困境，最终住进了邻居的房子里。
He was just totally disoriented, disconnected from reality, and the cops ended up killing him.
他完全迷失了方向，与现实脱节，警察最终杀了他。
And it was just tragic.
这真是一场悲剧。
Obviously an overuse of force in that case, because he was actually naked at the time.
在这种情况下显然是过度使用武力，因为他当时实际上是赤身裸体的。
This naked, 120 pound, I think, as I recall, kid that ended up dying.
我记得，这个赤身裸体、体重 120 磅的孩子最终死了。
But-
但是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, it's analogous to the reason I used the examples of body building culture.
嗯，这类似于我使用健身文化例子的原因。
I mean, people there have taken excesses, amounts of anabolics and diuretics and died.
我的意思是，那里的人们服用了过量的合成代谢药物和利尿剂并死亡。
Then the contortionist culture, people have put themselves into little plexiglass boxes to do ...
然后是柔术文化，人们把自己放进小有机玻璃盒子里做……
At the extremes, you're going to get deaths, and at the extremes ...
在极端的情况下，你会死亡，在极端的情况下......
And one of the extremes is the sheer number of people with different biological makeups taking the same drug.
极端情况之一是具有不同生物构成的人服用同一种药物的数量之多。
And so you can create extremes through numbers, you create extremes through dosage, it seems.
因此，你似乎可以通过数字创造极端，通过剂量创造极端。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well this is why I'm such a fan of the fact that people like yourself are doing clinical trials inside the walls of universities.
嗯，这就是为什么我非常喜欢像你这样的人在大学内进行临床试验。
Not because I think that psychedelics only have utility in those environments, but because it's so important toward creating their transition to legality, and to understand what legality means for a compound like this, right?
不是因为我认为迷幻药只在这些环境中有用，而是因为这对于使其向合法性过渡以及理解合法性对于此类化合物意味着什么非常重要，对吗？
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
Right.
对。
What model, yeah.
什么型号的啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
I mean, again, I'll stay with the anabolic steroids.
我的意思是，我会继续使用合成代谢类固醇。
There's now testosterone and estrogen replacement therapy.
现在有睾酮和雌激素替代疗法。
Hormone replacement therapy is a common medically approved practice.
激素替代疗法是医学上批准的常见做法。
But that's vastly different than people taking their own stuff, or deciding how much they need to take, right?
但这与人们拿走自己的东西或决定他们需要拿多少东西有很大不同，对吗？
Like we said, there's yoga and then there's contortion in a plexiglass box and thinking you're Houdini or something.
就像我们说的，有瑜伽，然后在有机玻璃盒子里扭曲并认为你是胡迪尼什么的。
So these are a matter of degrees.
所以这些只是程度问题。
Speaking of dosage, I definitely want to ask you about microdose versus standard or macro dose.
说到剂量，我肯定想问您关于微剂量与标准剂量或大剂量的问题。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Tell me that I'm wrong, but I'm always a little bit ...
告诉我我错了，但我总是有点……
I'm micro cynical, if you will, about this term microdose.
如果你愿意的话，我对“微剂量”一词持怀疑态度。
And the reason is that many people that I know who talk about microdosing are taking dosages of compounds that are very powerful at microgram levels.
原因是我认识的许多谈论微剂量的人所服用的化合物剂量在微克水平上非常有效。
So the word micro, I think, can be a little bit confusing to people, because microdose implies less than something.
因此，我认为“微剂量”这个词可能会让人们有点困惑，因为“微剂量”意味着什么。
It's a mini dose.
这是一个小剂量。
And yet some of these compounds are tremendously powerful at microgram concentrations.
然而，其中一些化合物在微克浓度下却具有非常强大的作用。
So what constitutes a micro dose and what is the value of so-called microdosing, if any, and how does it differ from standard, or what I can only assume is called macro dosing?
那么什么是微剂量，所谓的微剂量（如果有的话）的价值是什么，它与标准剂量有何不同，或者我只能假设所谓的宏观剂量？
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
Yeah.
是的。
And so LSD would be the prototypical example of that super potent compound-
所以LSD就是这种超级强效化合物的典型例子——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
How much, what size dosage of LSD, will lead to hallucinations and standard effects?
LSD的剂量有多少、多大，会导致幻觉和标准效应？
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
So the entry point for psychedelic-type effects, which may not involve hallucination.
因此，迷幻型效果的切入点可能不涉及幻觉。
Actually most classic psychedelics don't lead to true hallucinations as defined in psychiatry of, again, thinking you're talking to the person that's not there.
实际上，大多数经典迷幻药不会导致精神病学中定义的真正幻觉，即认为您正在与不存在的人交谈。
Seeing the pink elephant.
看到粉红色的大象。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, it's more like tracers and things like that.
不，它更像是追踪器之类的东西。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
More like pseudo hallucinations.
更像是假幻觉。
Right.
正确的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Perceptual blending.
感性的融合。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
And some people never get that even at a very high dose.
有些人即使服用非常高的剂量也永远不会出现这种情况。
So I think more broadly in terms of the psychedelic effects, which isn't just perceptual.
所以我更广泛地思考迷幻效果，这不仅仅是感知上的。
Unless we get into the level of, as you were alluding to earlier, a broader definition of perception, like one's models of the world, the model of the self.
除非我们进入一个更广泛的感知定义层面，就像你之前提到的那样，比如一个人的世界模型、自我模型。
You can consider all of that perception, in terms of truly not sensation, but the perception, the construction of putting together reality.
你可以考虑所有这些感知，实际上不是感觉，而是感知，将现实组合在一起的构建。
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
是啊，是啊，是啊。
So the psychedelic effects are typically considered to start for LSD around 100 micrograms.
因此，通常认为 LSD 在 100 微克左右时就会产生迷幻效果。
So a 10th of a milligram is 100 micrograms.
所以十分之一毫克就是 100 微克。
And so that's-
所以那就是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So someone taking 100 micrograms of LSD, nowadays people might mistakenly refer to that as a microdose because it's micrograms, but that's actually a macro dose of LSD.
因此，有人服用 100 微克 LSD，现在人们可能会错误地将其称为微剂量，因为它是微克，但这实际上是大剂量 LSD。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
Right, they might.
是的，他们可能会。
And that's one of the most common mistakes or situations that people get into with microdosing, is they intend it to be a microdose, but it ends up being a full-blown dose.
这是人们在使用微剂量时最常见的错误或情况之一，他们打算将其作为微剂量，但最终却成为了全面剂量。
Now people do, when they're working with LSD and they're microdosing, they'll shoot for something like, say 10 milligrams, something in that range, 10, 20 milligrams of LSD.
现在人们这样做了，当他们使用 LSD 时，他们会服用微剂量的 LSD，比如 10 毫克，在这个范围内，10、20 毫克 LSD。
So a 10th, a fifth, something of your entry level psychedelic dose.
所以是入门级迷幻剂量的十分之一、五分之一。
People's ability on the street to do this ...
街上的人有能力做到这一点......
I say the street as if they're on the corner, but anyway, outside of the medical profession to do this, it varies as you can imagine.
我说街道就好像他们就在拐角处一样，但无论如何，在医学界之外做这件事，你可以想象它会有所不同。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And they're not measuring purity or molarity or things like that typically.
他们通常不测量纯度或摩尔浓度或类似的东西。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
And there's ways to do it.
并且有办法做到这一点。
So even if you don't ultimately know the dose that's in the blotter paper of acid, one could at least get a sense of, yeah, having one of those tabs, one of those hits, is a psychedelic experience.
因此，即使您最终不知道吸墨纸中酸的剂量，人们至少可以感觉到，是的，拥有其中一个标签，其中一个点击，是一种迷幻的体验。
They could do something like put it in water, it's 100% aqueous soluble, you could make sure it all gets into solution.
他们可以做一些事情，比如把它放入水中，它是 100% 水溶性的，你可以确保它全部进入溶液。
And then volumetrically measure, it's going to be homogeneously distributed.
然后体积测量，它会均匀分布。
So you can take one 10th of that volume of water after it's fully dissolved, and you know that whatever you started with, you're going to have a 10th of that dose.
因此，在水完全溶解后，您可以服用该体积水的十分之一，并且您知道无论您开始使用什么，您都将获得该剂量的十分之一。
So the people that are more sophisticated will do things like that.
所以那些比较老练的人会做这样的事情。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
And when they're working with mushrooms, they'll grow a bunch of mushrooms and then they'll say, put it in a coffee grinder.
当他们种植蘑菇时，他们会种植一堆蘑菇，然后他们会说，将其放入咖啡研磨机中。
I'm not telling people to do this, by the way, I'm just describing.
顺便说一下，我并不是在告诉人们这样做，我只是在描述。
So don't do this at home.
所以不要在家里做这个。
But grind it all up so it's homogenous.
但将其全部磨碎，使其均匀。
Because you can have, taking two caps and a stem, hey, this two caps and a stem that this buddy takes has a different potency than this two caps and a stem that the other buddy takes.
因为你可以拿两个帽子和一个茎，嘿，这个伙伴拿的这两个帽子和一个茎与另一个伙伴拿的这两个帽子和一个茎具有不同的效力。
So people that are in the know will grind it all up into a homogenous powder, and they'll pack it into whatever size capsule, and they'll know that...
因此，了解情况的人会将其全部磨成均匀的粉末，然后将其装入任何尺寸的胶囊中，然后他们就会知道......
And again, even if they don't have ...
再说一遍，即使他们没有……
Sometimes they might have a buddy that'll sneak it into the HPLC at their job, or whatever, if they have a little connect.
有时，如果他们有一点联系，他们可能会有一个伙伴在他们的工作中将其偷偷带入 HPLC 或其他什么地方。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Not your lab.
不是你的实验室。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
Not my lab, that's never happened.
不是我的实验室，这种事从来没有发生过。
Seriously, it never happened.
说真的，这从未发生过。
But they'll at least know that, hey, I've got a sense of what two capsules do.
但他们至少会知道，嘿，我知道两个胶囊的作用。
I've got a sense of what five capsules do.
我已经了解五粒胶囊的作用了。
But in reality, that's not what people do.
但事实上，人们并不是这么做的。
They'll take a piece of blotter paper and they get a tiny little pair of scissors, a Swiss Army Knife pair of scissors, and they'll cut up the tab of acid, which is a quarter inch square or something, and they'll cut it up in 10 little pieces.
他们会拿一张吸墨纸，一把小剪刀，一把瑞士军刀剪刀，然后他们会剪掉四分之一英寸见方的酸片，然后他们会把它切成10小块。
And it's like, my God, you have no idea if it's equally distributed in that media.
就像，天哪，你不知道它是否在该媒体中均匀分布。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And we can chuckle about it.
我们可以对此一笑置之。
But to me, one of the reasons why this experiment around psychedelics, this cultural experiment, and this legal experiment, we're seeing this now, but this was all attempted once before in the '60s and '70s.
但对我来说，我们现在看到这个围绕迷幻剂的实验、这个文化实验和这个法律实验的原因之一，但这一切都在 60 年代和 70 年代尝试过一次。
The difference was it was all out in the street.
不同的是，一切都在街上。
The people in universities who were dabbling with this stuff, most of them lost their jobs, or were asked to leave through-
大学里涉足这玩意儿的人，大多都失业了，或者被勒令离职了——
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
They lost their funding for this research minimally, and they had to move on to other topics.
他们略微失去了这项研究的资金，并且不得不转向其他课题。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's right.
没错。
So these are precarious times.
所以现在是不稳定的时期。
I mean, we're at a key moment where everyone assumes that this is all going to be legal in a few years.
我的意思是，我们正处于一个关键时刻，每个人都认为这一切将在几年内合法化。
But I think that that's a premature assumption, frankly.
但坦率地说，我认为这是一个不成熟的假设。
And let's touch on the legality, and some of the things that are happening now.
让我们谈谈合法性以及现在正在发生的一些事情。
But what is microdosing psilocybin versus the sorts of dosages that you described before in the 10 to 40 milligram range?
但是，与您之前描述的 10 至 40 毫克范围内的各种剂量相比，微剂量裸盖菇素是什么？
I've heard of people taking one or two milligrams of psilocybin every day as a way to, quote unquote, and for those listening, I'm just making air quotes with my fingers, increase plasticity, which is a term that I personally loathe, because what does that mean?
我听说有人每天服用一两毫克裸盖菇素作为一种方法，引用不引用，对于那些听的人来说，我只是用手指做空气引用，增加可塑性，这是我个人讨厌的术语，因为这意味着什么？
I mean, you don't really want your brain to be plastic because you need to make ...
我的意思是，你并不真的希望你的大脑是可塑的，因为你需要......
You need to maintain your ability to make predictions.
您需要保持做出预测的能力。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
It's that balance.
就是这样的平衡。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I mean-
我的意思是——
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
Order and chaos.
秩序与混乱。
Prediction.
预言。
You need models of the world.
你需要世界模型。
You need heuristics.
你需要启发法。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Plasticity is never the goal; or plasticity is never the goal, goal-directed plasticity is the goal, right?
可塑性从来都不是目标；或者可塑性从来都不是目标，目标导向的可塑性才是目标，对吗？
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
Right, right.
对，对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Learning a language, reshaping your experience to a trauma, altering the perception of self.
学习语言，重塑你的创伤经历，改变自我认知。
But plasticity is a process like-
但可塑性是一个类似的过程——
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
Schizophrenia is a lot of plasticity.
精神分裂症有很大的可塑性。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Right.
正确的。
It might even be, there's one theory that it's extreme ongoing plasticity, and that's why people never create stable representations of anything.
甚至可能，有一种理论认为它是极端持续的可塑性，这就是为什么人们永远不会创建任何事物的稳定表示。
That's a minority view out there.
这是少数人的观点。
So what's the business with microdosing, and is there any clinical evidence or peer-reviewed published evidence that it works, quote unquote, to make people feel better about anything?
那么微剂量有什么用呢？是否有任何临床证据或同行评审的已发表证据表明它可以让人们对任何事情感觉更好？
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
So microdosing is the aim of taking, again, something around a 10th of what would be an entry level psychedelic dose for whatever compound.
因此，微剂量的目的是再次服用任何化合物的入门级致幻剂剂量的十分之一左右。
So yeah, with psilocybin, usually people, almost never do people have pure psilocybin.
所以，是的，对于裸盖菇素，通常人们几乎从来没有纯裸盖菇素。
One milligram of psilocybin would be in the range of a micro dose.
一毫克裸盖菇素属于微剂量范围。
More likely people are going to have mushrooms, so something like a half of a gram of mushroom.
人们更有可能会吃蘑菇，比如半克蘑菇。
A quarter gram-
四分之一克——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I know people that are doing it every day.
我认识每天都在这样做的人。
They're doing this every day.
他们每天都在这样做。
The same way that I take, personally, I'm not recommending other people do this, but I take some, I'm a fan of LC, L-Carnitine lately.
就像我个人采取的方式一样，我不建议其他人这样做，但我采取了一些，我最近是 LC、左旋肉碱的粉丝。
I've been experimenting with that a little bit, which is not a psychedelic compound.
我已经对此进行了一些尝试，这不是一种迷幻化合物。
I take it every day.
我每天都服用。
And that they're taking, that's their supplement every day.
他们每天服用的就是补充剂。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
Psilocybin.
赛洛西宾。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's their supplement.
那是他们的补充。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So...
所以...
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
every day.
每天。
That's their supplement.
那是他们的补充。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
Yeah.
是的。
The claims are, and there are a number of them, there's two general ones.
这些主张有很多，其中有两个一般性的。
One is sort of acting in place of the ADHD treating drugs, so the psychomotor stimulants, so a better version of Adderall.
一种是替代多动症治疗药物，即精神运动兴奋剂，即更好版本的阿得拉。
The other claims are essentially a better version of the traditional antidepressants, a better version of Prozac.
其他声称本质上是传统抗抑郁药的更好版本，是百忧解的更好版本。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
People are taking both for attention deficit and for depression.
人们服用药物既可以治疗注意力缺陷，也可以治疗抑郁症。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
And the aspects of those disorders that we all have a degree of, just like amphetamine, is going to increase the focus at the right dose of anyone who takes amphetamine, pretty much whether you're ADHD, diagnosed or not, the idea is that there may not be necessarily a clear divide between the therapeutic need and positive psychology, even improving mood and focus.
我们都有一定程度的这些疾病的各个方面，就像安非他明一样，任何服用安非他明的人在适当剂量下都会提高注意力，几乎无论你是否患有注意力缺陷多动症，无论是否被诊断出来，这个想法是，治疗需求和积极心理之间不一定存在明显的区别，甚至改善情绪和注意力。
So it's not necessarily correcting ADHD but improving focus to supercharge your life.
因此，它不一定能纠正多动症，而是能提高注意力，让你的生活充满活力。
And so those are the claims.
这些就是这些主张。
I am ...
我是...
So none of the peer-reviewed studies that have much credibility, none of them have shown a benefit and they've tried.
因此，没有一项经过同行评审的研究具有很大的可信度，没有一项研究显示出好处并且他们已经尝试过了。
Now, there's only at this point, four or five studies that ...
现在，只有四到五项研究......
And I think for things like this you really need double blind research because the effects ....
我认为对于这样的事情你真的需要双盲研究，因为效果......
I mean there was one study done in Amsterdam where people knew they were takings psilocybin truffles, basically same as mushrooms.
我的意思是在阿姆斯特丹进行了一项研究，人们知道他们正在服用裸盖菇素松露，基本上与蘑菇相同。
It was more like the roots, the mycelia ...
它更像是根，菌丝体......
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Microdosing them?
微剂量它们？
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
Well, taking what would be considered a microdose and then doing some cognitive measures before and after.
好吧，服用微剂量的药物，然后在之前和之后进行一些认知测量。
And the types of things that a lot of cognitive measures are measured on, the order of reaction time and milliseconds.
以及许多认知测量所测量的事物类型、反应时间和毫秒的顺序。
And the types of effects you get, as you could imagine, are ones that would be, you would totally expect could be there from either a practice effect or an expectancy effect, a placebo effect.
正如你所想象的那样，你所获得的效果类型是你完全期望的效果，要么是练习效果，要么是预期效果，安慰剂效果。
So for something like these claimed, you can imagine a sort of an increased focus enhancement of cognition.
因此，对于这些声称的东西，你可以想象一种增强注意力的认知能力。
These are going to be more subtle effects that you really need a good placebo control for.
这些将是更微妙的效果，您确实需要良好的安慰剂对照。
The handful of studies that have done that, have shown ...
少数已经做到这一点的研究表明......
They've ranged from finding no effect whatsoever to just a little bit of impairment like impairing someone's ability to do time estimation and production tasks.
他们的范围从没有发现任何影响到只有一点点损害，例如损害某人完成时间估计和生产任务的能力。
So you want an accurate sense of time, at least if you're navigating in the real world.
因此，您需要准确的时间感，至少在现实世界中航行时是这样。
It's different if you're on the couch on a heroic dose for therapeutic reasons where you're safe.
如果您出于治疗原因而在安全的情况下躺在沙发上服用英雄剂量的药物，情况就会有所不同。
But if you're crossing the street ...
但如果你过马路...
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You have to function ...
你必须发挥作用...
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
In your work life ...
在你的工作生活中...
Which is the way people are claiming to use that, it helps them be a better CEO.
人们声称使用这种方式可以帮助他们成为更好的首席执行官。
Like you want an accurate sense of time.
就像您想要准确的时间感一样。
So if anything, the data suggests that it makes it a little bit less accurate, and there's evidence that someone feels a little bit impaired and they feel a little bit high.
因此，如果说有什么不同的话，那就是数据表明，这使得它的准确性稍微降低了一点，而且有证据表明，有人感觉有点受损，而且感觉有点亢奋。
So in terms of ...
所以就...
You call that abuse liability and research, not surprising, you take a little bit of a drug that can result in some type of a high and you take a little tiny bit of it, you'll feel a little bit high.
你称之为滥用倾向和研究，这并不奇怪，你服用一点点可以导致某种类型的兴奋的药物，你服用一点点它，你会感觉有点兴奋。
So far no studies have shown any increase in creativity, enhancement of any form of cognition or a sustained improvement and mood.
到目前为止，还没有研究表明创造力有任何增加，任何形式的认知能力增强或持续改善和情绪。
Now, no studies have actually looked at the system of microdosing that the aficionados are claiming, and there's a couple of models out there, but folks like Paul Stamets and others, they'll have particular formulas.
现在，还没有研究真正研究过狂热者所声称的微剂量系统，并且有几个模型，但像保罗·斯塔梅茨和其他人这样的人，他们会有特定的公式。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
They're like, you need to take it one day ,and then take so many days off and take it every four days.
他们就像，你需要一天服用一次，然后休息很多天，每四天服用一次。
And I don't want to get into whose model is what, but it's always something like that.
我不想讨论谁的模型是什么，但总是这样。
Some pattern of use, usually not every day.
某种使用模式，通常不是每天。
And the claim is that it's not just, sometimes people get benefit that first time when they take it, but they really say you need to be on it for a while.
据称，有时人们在第一次服用时就会受益，但他们确实说你需要服用一段时间。
A few weeks in, you may start to notice through this pattern of using it and you're feeling the benefits on those off days, like the three or two days in between your active doses.
几周后，您可能会开始注意到这种使用模式，并且您会在休息日（例如服用活性剂量之间的三到两天）感受到好处。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
So those are the claims.
这些就是主张。
Again, we don't know that there's any truth to that working, but studies have not been done to model that.
再说一次，我们不知道这种做法是否真实，但还没有进行研究来模拟这一点。
So that's a big caveat, we as a field, let's say we as the scientific field have not done the studies to really model what the real aficionados are claiming, where the therapeutic benefits come from.
所以这是一个很大的警告，我们作为一个领域，假设我们作为科学领域还没有进行研究来真正模拟真正的爱好者所声称的内容，即治疗效果的来源。
That said, it's almost assuredly there's a good amount of placebo there, but the caveat to that is almost everything in medicine or therapeutics is going to have some degree of placebo there.
也就是说，几乎可以肯定那里有大量的安慰剂，但需要注意的是，医学或治疗学中的几乎所有东西都将有一定程度的安慰剂。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sure.
当然。
Belief effects are ...
信念效应是...
I have a colleague at Stanford, Alia Crum, who has published really beautiful work on belief effects that show that essentially you give the same milkshake to two people.
我在斯坦福大学有一位同事，Alia Crum，她发表了关于信念效应的非常精彩的著作，表明本质上你给两个人喝同样的奶昔。
are two groups of people.
是两群人。
You tell them that one contains a lot of nutrients, the other is a low-calorie shake, the insulin response ...
你告诉他们，一种含有大量营养成分，另一种是低热量奶昔，胰岛素反应……
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
Amazing.
太棒了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
varies dramatically between the two groups doing equivalent amounts of physical movement.
进行等量身体运动的两组之间的差异显着。
And you tell one group that it's going to be good for them and help them lose weight and they lose on average 8 to 12 pounds more doing the exact same patterns of movement.
你告诉一组人，这对他们有好处，可以帮助他们减肥，如果做同样的运动模式，他们平均会多减掉 8 到 12 磅。
And I think that these belief effects boil down to all sorts of kind of networkwide neuromodulation, things of that sort of thing.
我认为这些信念效应可以归结为各种网络范围的神经调节，诸如此类的事情。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
And then the work at Harvard suggesting that even if you don't have deception, you give a placebo and say this is a sugar pill, and tell them that and it could still treat things, I think irritable bowel was the first thing they looked at.
然后哈佛大学的研究表明，即使你没有欺骗，你也可以给予安慰剂并说这是一种糖丸，并告诉他们它仍然可以治疗疾病，我认为肠易激是他们首先考虑的问题。
And so there's a huge reality there.
所以这是一个巨大的现实。
There's a necessity in developing drugs to make sure it's not only that, but in the actual practice of medicine, hopefully what you're always getting is some underlying direct efficacy plus the placebo that enhances that.
开发药物有必要确保不仅如此，而且在实际的医学实践中，希望你总是得到一些潜在的直接功效加上增强这种功效的安慰剂。
Now it could be ...
现在可能是...
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
The real question is, Is the microdosing, are those claims a hundred percent placebo or are they only part placebo and part "real" effect?
真正的问题是，微剂量是那些声称百分百的安慰剂还是它们只是部分安慰剂和部分“真实”效果？
My bet is, and this is totally based on anecdotes, that I think there is probably a reality to the antidepressant effects.
我敢打赌，这完全是基于轶事，我认为抗抑郁作用可能是现实的。
I find that more intriguing, because of the suffering with depression.
我觉得这更有趣，因为患有抑郁症。
It wouldn't be as interesting as I think what we're doing with high-dose psilocybin or psychedelics to treat depression.
这并不像我想象的那样有趣，我们用大剂量裸盖菇素或迷幻药来治疗抑郁症。
It would be, if this is developed and there's a reality, it would be more like perhaps a better SSRI, a better Prozac, which need more tools than fewer tools in the toolbox.
如果这个技术被开发出来并且成为现实，它可能更像是一种更好的 SSRI，一种更好的百忧解，它需要更多的工具而不是工具箱中更少的工具。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
And it shouldn't be that surprise.
这不应该那么令人惊讶。
Even before, going back to the tricyclics and the MAO inhibitors going back to the '50s, like augmenting extracellular serotonin in one way or another for many people leads to a reduction in depressive symptoms.
甚至在更早之前，回到上世纪 50 年代的三环类药物和 MAO 抑制剂，比如以一种或另一种方式增加细胞外血清素，对许多人来说可以减轻抑郁症状。
It wouldn't be that crazy for chronically stimulating a subtype of serotonin receptor that you have an antidepressant effect.
长期刺激血清素受体亚型并不会产生抗抑郁作用。
So I think if I had put my bets on it, if there's anything real, it is in that category.
所以我想如果我下注的话，如果有什么真实的东西，它就属于这一类。
Although I'm very open to maybe there is something to the creativity, to the improved cognition, which covers many domains in and of itself.
尽管我对创造力和认知能力的提高持非常开放的态度，这本身就涵盖了许多领域。
But my greatest hopes are on the antidepressant effects.
但我最大的希望是抗抑郁作用。
That said, in the big picture, the most interesting thing about psychedelics are the heroic doses.
也就是说，从整体上看，迷幻药最有趣的地方在于其剂量。
I mean the idea you can give something one, two, three times and you see improvements in depression months later and in addiction over a year later.
我的意思是，你可以给予某样东西一次、两次、三次，几个月后你会看到抑郁症有所改善，一年多后你会看到成瘾症有所改善。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
And with these people dealing with potentially terminal illness.
以及这些患有潜在绝症的人。
I'm interested in big effects, and I don't think you're ever going to get the really big effects.
我对大效果很感兴趣，但我认为你永远不会获得真正大的效果。
There's also some concern that almost all of these, the more common psychedelics, even counting MDMA, they have serotonin 2B agonist effects, and agonizing serotonin 2B has been shown to lead to heart valve formation problems, morphology issues, so valvulopothy.
还有人担心，几乎所有这些，更常见的致幻剂，甚至算上 MDMA，它们都具有 5-羟色胺 2B 激动剂作用，而激动性 5-羟色胺 2B 已被证明会导致心脏瓣膜形成问题、形态问题，从而导致瓣膜病。
And so this is why fen-phen was pulled from the market.
这就是芬芬被撤出市场的原因。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The diet drug.
减肥药。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Very effective diet drug.
非常有效的减肥药。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
Right.
对。
And it was the portion of that combination that had the serotonin 2B activity that was the problem.
问题出在该组合中具有血清素 2B 活性的部分。
And so we don't know, so all of the toxicologists I've ever spoken to about this would say, and cardiologists say like, "Look, hey, if there was some concern there, it's not applicable to the whole idea of you taking something a few times therapeutically within a lifetime."
所以我们不知道，所以我接触过的所有毒理学家都会说，心脏病专家也会说，“听着，嘿，如果有一些担忧，它不适用于你在一生中服用几次某种药物进行治疗的整个想法。”
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
But the idea of taking something like twice a week for years, I mean even the hippies back in the '60s weren't doing that, right?
但是多年来每周服用两次的想法，我的意思是，即使是 60 年代的嬉皮士也没有这样做，对吧？
There's not even these natural ...
连这些天然的东西都没有...
And even if there was some heart valve disease problem that stemmed from psychedelic use, who's connecting those dots?
即使存在一些因使用致幻剂而引起的心脏瓣膜疾病问题，谁将这些点联系起来呢？
That's not showing up in the clinical charts for anyone to figure out.
这并没有出现在临床图表中供任何人弄清楚。
And just theoretically, there is more of a concern if something's going to happen with heart valves, it's more likely that those issues would arise when someone's taking these things like, let's say, twice a week for the next five years.
从理论上讲，如果心脏瓣膜发生问题，人们会更担心，当有人在未来五年内每周服用两次这些东西时，更有可能出现这些问题。
And so I do want to throw that out to people to really consider.
所以我确实想把这个问题抛给人们认真考虑。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Yeah, it's something I hadn't heard before that ...
是的，这是我之前从未听说过的……
"micro" sounds safer, microdosing as opposed to heroic or macrodosing.
“微剂量”听起来更安全，微剂量相对于英雄剂量或大剂量。
And yet, in the context of your lab and other labs doing similar work, you've got people checking blood pressure, you've got people that are really monitoring your psychological and physical safety.
然而，在您的实验室和其他从事类似工作的实验室中，有人检查血压，有人真正监控您的心理和身体安全。
When people are out there microdosing, it sounds like there's the potential either through this serotonin 2B receptor or other mechanism that maybe there could be some kind of cumulative negative effects.
当人们进行微剂量给药时，听起来似乎有可能通过这种 5-羟色胺 2B 受体或其他机制，可能会产生某种累积的负面影响。
And I think that's a really important consideration.
我认为这是一个非常重要的考虑因素。
So I'm glad you brought it up.
所以我很高兴你提出来。
What about kids?
孩子们呢？
So the brain is very plastic early in life.
因此，大脑在生命早期就具有很强的可塑性。
It becomes less plastic as we age, although it maintains some degree of plasticity throughout the lifespan.
随着年龄的增长，它的可塑性会降低，尽管它在整个生命周期中保持一定程度的可塑性。
The year 25 — not the year 25, but rather the age 25 years — is sort of an inflection point where the rigidity of the nervous system seems to really take off.
25 岁——不是 25 岁，而是 25 岁——是一个拐点，神经系统的僵化似乎真正开始发展。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Of course, people don't wake up on their 25th birthday and find they have no neuroplasticity, whereas the day before they had a lot, these are ...
当然，人们不会在 25 岁生日那天醒来，发现自己没有神经可塑性，而在他们拥有很多神经可塑性的前一天，这些都是......
It's plus or minus whatever it is a year or two, but depends on the individual.
无论是一年还是两年，都会有正负，但取决于个人。
However, the young brain is very plastic, and I could imagine there could be great risks, who knows, maybe even benefits.
然而，年轻的大脑具有很强的可塑性，我可以想象这可能会有很大的风险，谁知道呢，甚至可能会有好处。
But I'm certainly not thinking about those.
但我当然不会考虑这些。
I'm mainly thinking about the risks for young people taking psychedelics.
我主要考虑的是年轻人服用迷幻药的风险。
Are there any trials looking at people in clinical trials, this would be under the age of 18.
是否有任何针对 18 岁以下人群的临床试验。
Has anyone explored this in a rigorous way, given the potential to exacerbate psychotic symptoms and bipolar symptoms in some people, is there heightened risk of that?
有没有人以严格的方式对此进行过探索，考虑到某些人可能会加剧精神病症状和双相情感障碍症状，这种风险是否会增加？
What's the story with age of use and psychedelics for therapeutic purposes?
迷幻药的使用年龄和用于治疗目的的故事是什么？
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
There's no formal research.
没有正式的研究。
Although, there's a very high chance that there will be.
尽管如此，这种情况发生的可能性还是很大的。
And so this is one of the very interesting things folks may not realize or appreciate about the FDA approval process.
因此，这是人们可能没有意识到或欣赏 FDA 审批流程的非常有趣的事情之一。
So the FDA already, in multiple instances, has signaled that they want to see those studies.
因此，FDA 已经多次表示他们希望看到这些研究。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Before ...
之前...
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
Well, not before it's approved as necessarily as for adults, but they're going to eventually want to see in fact, so the MAPS group that's developing MDMA for PTSD, they've already signaled, that's kind of on the list of interest.
好吧，在它像成人一样获得批准之前，但他们最终会希望看到事实，所以正在开发用于 PTSD 的 MDMA 的 MAPS 小组，他们已经表示，这在某种程度上是感兴趣的。
And there's even some incentives in the FDA pathways for incentivizing folks to explore that use in young people.
FDA 甚至还制定了一些激励措施来激励人们在年轻人中探索这种用途。
I know in some of the work that I helped with in pushing psilocybin into phase 2B clinical research, the FDA said, "Well, why can't you give this to kids?
我知道，在我帮助将裸盖菇素推向 2B 期临床研究的一些工作中，FDA 说：“好吧，为什么你不能把它给孩子们呢？
Are you aware that depression is a problem with adolescents?" And it's really interesting because FDA is very concerned about pseudospecificity.
你知道抑郁症是青少年的一个问题吗？”这真的很有趣，因为 FDA 非常关心伪特异性。
The idea that ...
这个想法是...
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Define pseudospecificity?
定义伪特异性？
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
You put out a drug and say, "Oh, this is good for men but not women.
你拿出一种药物并说：“哦，这对男性有好处，但对女性则不然。
This is good for black folks but not white folks." And sometimes there's a very good rationale for that when we're talking about hormones and for specific ...
这对黑人有利，但对白人不利。”有时，当我们谈论激素和特定的……时，这是有很好的理由的。
men versus women.
男人与女人。
And there's certain issues, certain disease states like maybe sickle cell anemia, that's more relevant.
还有一些更相关的问题、某些疾病状态，比如镰状细胞性贫血。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Tay-Sachs, things like that.
泰萨克斯，类似的事情。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
Yeah, exactly.
是的，完全正确。
But absent of something that, they're very concerned about saying, "Oh, this is for this type of person but not that type of person." So age is one of those things.
但如果没有这样的东西，他们就会非常担心地说：“哦，这是适合这种类型的人，但不适合那种类型的人。”所以年龄就是其中之一。
And also this recognition, much like the emphasis at NIH with rodent studies and human studies, that you can't just say you're studying men, or just you need a rationale if you're only ...
而且这种认识，就像 NIH 强调啮齿类动物研究和人类研究一样，你不能只是说你正在研究男性，或者如果你只是......
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
To be clear to people.
为人明了。
There's a recent switch, but there's a stipulation in every federally funded grant that both sexes, we don't refer to gender in scientific studies unless it's a study of gender per se.
最近有一个转变，但在每项联邦资助的拨款中都有一项规定，无论男女，我们都不会在科学研究中提及性别，除非它是对性别本身的研究。
We refer to sex meaning biological sex.
我们所说的性别是指生物性别。
So that there's a stipulation that in order to receive and continue to receive funding, you have to do studies on both males and females of that species, including humans.
因此有一项规定，为了获得并继续获得资金，你必须对该物种的雄性和雌性（包括人类）进行研究。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
And at least, even if you're not powered for it, at least looking at that in exploratory analysis.
至少，即使你没有能力，至少也要在探索性分析中看看。
As a grant reviewer, I'm charged with looking at, you know, did they address sex as a biologically relevant variable?
作为一名拨款评审员，我负责查看，你知道，他们是否将性别视为生物学相关变量？
Anyway, you throw it in there ...
无论如何，你把它扔在那里......
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Does the same drug have different effects in males versus females?
同一种药物对男性和女性的作用是否不同？
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
Right.
对。
And you could at least look at the trends, even again, if you're underpowered to look at those between subject type effects.
如果您没有能力查看主题类型效应之间的趋势，那么您至少可以再次查看趋势。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Which is a great shift that didn't exist 10 years ago.
这是十年前还不存在的巨大转变。
Sounds like we're both on grants panels.
听起来我们都是资助小组的成员。
As study section members, you didn't have to do that, now it's an important biological variable.
作为研究组成员，你不必这样做，现在它是一个重要的生物变量。
If you don't look at that, you essentially won't get your funding.
如果你不看这一点，你基本上就不会获得资金。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
And age is a similar thing.
年龄也是类似的事情。
So it's a whole idea, man, if something could help kids, what's the rationale?
所以这是一个完整的想法，伙计，如果有什么东西可以帮助孩子，其理由是什么？
So I think there's going to be ...
所以我认为将会有...
Now, obviously you're going to have in those studies, at least just as much, probably more, it should be more of a cautionary approach.
现在，显然你将在这些研究中看到，至少同样多，可能更多，它应该更多是一种谨慎的方法。
It's probably going to be, certainly whatever disease states are looked at are going to have to be probably treatment resistant, at least as a first step.
当然，无论所研究的疾病状态如何，都可能必须对治疗产生耐药性，至少作为第一步。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Suicidal depression.
有自杀倾向的抑郁症。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
Yeah.
是的。
And so all of that in the mix.
所有这些都混合在一起。
But hey, if this stuff really helps people that are 25 or 30, what's the rationale that it won't help a younger person?
但是，嘿，如果这些东西真的能帮助 25 岁或 30 岁的人，那么它有什么理由不能帮助年轻人呢？
And there are these generic kind of concerns about the developing nervous system is more susceptible to ...
人们普遍担心发育中的神经系统更容易受到……
I mean, it cuts both ways because it's also more plastic, generally, and adaptable, maybe resilient to injury in certain ways.
我的意思是，它是双向的，因为它通常也更具可塑性，适应性更强，也许在某些方面对伤害有弹性。
But you know, hear the rhetoric about kids, their brains and drugs, and it's like the developing brain is a special concern.
但你知道，听到有关孩子、他们的大脑和药物的言论，就好像大脑发育是一个特别值得关注的问题。
But I think we're going to be seeing research eventually.
但我认为我们最终会看到研究。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's interesting.
这很有趣。
I went to the high school that is infamous, sadly, Gunn High School for having the highest degree, at least at one point, of high suicide rate.
我去了一所臭名昭著的高中，可悲的是，冈恩高中因为拥有最高的学位，至少在某一时刻，自杀率很高。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
Wow.
哇。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Very large number of suicides.
自杀人数非常多。
This was written up in the Times and elsewhere.
这在《泰晤士报》和其他地方都有报道。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
Is it a very academically successful school?
这是一所学术上非常成功的学校吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's a very academic ...
这是一个非常学术的...
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
There's a lot of high pressure.
有很大的高压。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Very academically demanding school, to the point where they've restricted, the kids will meet often at 6:30 a.m.
学校对学业要求很高，甚至受到限制，孩子们经常在早上 6:30 见面。
or 6:00 a.m.
或上午 6:00
before school for study groups and things of that sort.
上学前参加学习小组之类的活动。
So some of it may relate to that.
所以其中一些可能与此有关。
But I have to say that even prior to all that academic pressure, when I went there, the pressure wasn't like that.
但我不得不说，即使在所有这些学业压力之前，当我去那里时，压力也不是那样的。
We had an unusual number of suicides for whatever reason.
无论出于何种原因，我们的自杀人数都异常多。
And so the idea of kids being prescribed, and I want to reemphasize prescribed, not just using, but prescribed psychedelics for therapeutic purposes I think might make some people baulk.
因此，让孩子们接受处方的想法，我想再次强调处方，不仅仅是使用，而是出于治疗目的而处方迷幻药，我认为可能会让一些人犹豫不决。
But the idea of kids killing themselves should also make people baulk.
但孩子们自杀的想法也会让人们望而却步。
And so I'm relieved to hear that there's going to be a rational, scientific, safe clinical trial-based exploration of this.
因此，当我听说将对此进行合理、科学、安全的基于临床试验的探索时，我感到很欣慰。
I want to ask you about the current status of these drugs and compounds.
我想问您有关这些药物和化合物的现状。
I'm pretty active on social media, more so on Instagram than on Twitter.
我在社交媒体上非常活跃，尤其是 Instagram，而不是 Twitter。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But as I have been on Twitter a little bit more recently, I've noticed that there's a lot of dialogue around your account and other people's accounts around a couple of themes related to psychedelics.
但正如我最近在 Twitter 上的情况一样，我注意到围绕你的帐户和其他人的帐户有很多与迷幻药相关的主题的对话。
First of all, what is the status of the transition to legality for prescription purposes?
首先，时效合法化的过渡情况如何？
So medical doctors, MDs prescribing it legally for therapeutic purposes.
因此，医生、医学博士出于治疗目的合法开药。
That's the first question.
这是第一个问题。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The second question is, what is the status as it relates to possession and criminal charges?
第二个问题是，占有和刑事指控的状况如何？
So for a long time I lived in Oakland, where we were one day, told not too long ago, it is now decriminalized is what I was told.
因此，我在奥克兰生活了很长一段时间，有一天我们在那里，不久前被告知，现在它已经合法化了。
Double-check, people, but what does that mean?
请仔细检查，人们，但这意味着什么？
And then the other issue and the third question, and we can parse these one by one, is this issue of, let's just say I'm aware of a lot of investor dollars going into companies that are essentially companies focused on psychedelics as therapeutics or psychedelics generally.
然后是另一个问题和第三个问题，我们可以一一解析，这个问题是，让我们说，我知道很多投资者的资金进入了那些本质上专注于迷幻药作为治疗剂或一般迷幻药的公司。
I have to assume that they are investing in anticipation of a shift in the legal status and there's a lot of interest.
我必须假设他们投资是为了预期法律地位的转变，并且有很多兴趣。
Now, will psilocybin become a taxable thing just like marijuana?
现在，裸盖菇素会像大麻一样成为应税物品吗？
So let's start with the question of what is going on in the U.S. legally?
那么，让我们先来问一下，在美国合法地发生了什么？
Is it illegal to possess and sell and use these compounds?
拥有、出售和使用这些化合物是否违法？
My understanding is you can still go to jail for having these compounds in your possession or for selling.
我的理解是，您仍然可能因拥有或出售这些化合物而入狱。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
So even though the legal landscape is very different than with cannabis, there are some similarities.
因此，尽管法律环境与大麻有很大不同，但也有一些相似之处。
So one of the similarities is that regardless of what local municipal, whether the city or state has decriminalized, and that word itself can mean many things.
因此，相似之处之一是，无论哪个地方市政府、城市或州都已将非犯罪化，而这个词本身就可以意味着很多东西。
So some forms of decriminalization is close to what folks would call legalization and others are pretty weak.
因此，某些形式的非刑事化接近人们所说的合法化，而其他形式则相当薄弱。
Just saying we suggest that the police make it their lowest law enforcement priority, that type of thing.
只是说我们建议警方将其作为执法的最低优先级，诸如此类。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Turn the other cheek.
转动另一边脸颊。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
Right.
对。
But even, the cops can still choose to.
但即便如此，警察仍然可以选择这样做。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But someone could get pulled over for one thing, searched, and then by definition, if it's illegal and they find it, then they have to do something about.
但有人可能会因为一件事被拦下，接受搜查，然后根据定义，如果这是非法的并且他们发现了它，那么他们就必须采取行动。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
And that'll probably be determined by both judicial precedent — is it going to be thrown out, and just the local prosecutor even before, are they going to choose, even at postarrest are going to pursue to really go after those charges, make those charges stick?
这可能取决于两个司法先例——是否会被驳回，甚至在之前，当地检察官是否会选择，即使在被捕后，是否会真正追究这些指控，使这些指控成立？
So I think that's still in play and is going to depend on the municipality.
所以我认为这仍然在发挥作用，并且将取决于市政府。
But like cannabis, federally, these are all schedule 1 compounds.
但与大麻一样，在联邦范围内，这些都是附表 1 化合物。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Which means they're illegal.
这意味着它们是非法的。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
Which means they're illegal.
这意味着它们是非法的。
The caveat to that, just as has always been the case since Prop 215 in California with cannabis in '96 is that, hey, 99% of drug enforcement is done at the local and state level.
需要注意的是，正如自 96 年加利福尼亚州第 215 号提案涉及大麻以来一直存在的情况一样，嘿，99% 的缉毒执法是在地方和州一级完成的。
The DEA, which is the federal level law enforcement, is a tiny fraction of the arrests that ...
美国缉毒署 (DEA) 是联邦一级执法机构，其逮捕行动只占一小部分……
I mean most people that are arrested for any drug are done by local or state level authorities, but it's still technically illegal.
我的意思是，大多数因毒品被捕的人都是由地方或州级当局逮捕的，但从技术上讲，这仍然是非法的。
And so you can, and they could potentially, depending on the ambiguity of the local law, even those local officials could charge you with a federal crime.
所以你可以，而且他们也有可能，根据当地法律的模糊性，甚至那些地方官员也可能以联邦犯罪罪指控你。
And theoretically the feds could always come in.
从理论上讲，联邦政府总是可以介入。
Now, although, again, a similar case with the whole cannabis history, the feds came in the early days with the folks that were basically highly visible.
现在，尽管整个大麻历史上又出现了类似的情况，但联邦政府在早期就与那些基本上非常引人注目的人一起出现了。
They went after Tommy Chong for selling bongs.
他们因汤米·庄（Tommy Chong）出售烟枪而追捕他。
But I remember him being on "The Tonight Show" one time, and I think it was back in the Jay Leno days, he says, "Oh, along Santa Monica Boardwalk, every shop sells bongs.
但我记得他有一次参加《今夜秀》，我想那是在杰·雷诺时代，他说，“哦，沿着圣莫尼卡木板路，每家商店都卖烟枪。
How did you go to prison for a half year for bongs?"
你怎么会因为烟枪入狱半年呢？”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because he was famous.
因为他很有名。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
'Cause he was Tommy Chong, and there were some high profile cannabis groups that were distributing it and were very vocal.
因为他是汤米·庄（Tommy Chong），并且有一些知名度很高的大麻团体正在分发大麻，并且非常直言不讳。
Those were the ones raided by the DEA in the early days, not the ones kind of keeping to themselves, keeping it quiet and just doing their thing.
这些人是缉毒局早期突击搜查的人，而不是那些独来独往、保持安静、只做自己事的人。
So there's always the potential for selective enforcement.
因此，选择性执法的可能性总是存在的。
And this initiative in Oregon, which is a state level legalization of psilocybin therapy, which is really interesting.
俄勒冈州的这项举措是裸盖菇素疗法的州级合法化，这非常有趣。
Part of their plan for two years is to figure out how to integrate with the federal level.
他们两年计划的一部分是弄清楚如何与联邦层面整合。
And I don't know how that's going to go because unless you rewrite the Controlled Substances Act, it seems like the best you're going to get is a tolerance from the federal government.
我不知道事情会如何发展，因为除非你重写《受控物质法案》，否则你能得到的最好的结果似乎就是联邦政府的宽容。
And that could be very, hey, you change administrations ...
这可能是非常，嘿，你改变了政府......
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And this is psilocybin by a prescription from a medical doctor, or you're talking about therapists who have master's degrees or PhDs or self-appointed coaches, or something like that, administering psilocybin but without any oversight?
这是医生处方的裸盖菇素，或者你谈论的是拥有硕士学位或博士学位的治疗师或自封的教练，或类似的人，在没有任何监督的情况下使用裸盖菇素？
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
This is all getting figured out in the Oregon case.
这一切都在俄勒冈州的案例中得到了解决。
And again, there's that two-year period of basically we're going to figure this out.
再说一次，我们基本上会用两年的时间来解决这个问题。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What is it with Oregon?
俄勒冈州是怎么回事？
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
They're ahead with a lot of ...
他们领先很多...
Euthanasia ...
安乐死...
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I love the state of Oregon, but it's interesting how you have these pockets, Oregon, Vermont seems to be one, you get these kind of pockets where people are experimental with plant compounds.
我喜欢俄勒冈州，但有趣的是，你有这些口袋，俄勒冈州、佛蒙特州似乎就是其中之一，你有这些口袋，人们在那里进行植物化合物的实验。
They seem to be green woodsy areas, at least in my mind.
它们似乎是绿色的树林，至少在我看来是这样。
But there's sort of a culture around plants and the use of plants as therapeutics.
但有一种围绕植物和使用植物作为治疗方法的文化。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
And combine that with the West, just more geographically of the antifederalism.
并将其与西方结合起来，只是在地理上更具有反联邦主义的特征。
I mean the Oregon ranchers from several years ago that held up whatever wildlife place, and that was a big showdown with the feds, and the West is kind of known for more of those issues.
我的意思是几年前俄勒冈州的牧场主们保护了野生动物的栖息地，那是与联邦政府的一场大摊牌，而西方因此类问题而闻名。
So you combined the two: hippie-dippie California-Oregon vibe with ...
所以你将两者结合起来：嬉皮士加州-俄勒冈州的氛围与......
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Although, I would argue it's becoming less hippie-dippie than ...
不过，我认为它变得不那么嬉皮士了……
Although it was.
虽然是这样。
There's always been a tradition, not just in the culture around drugs, but certainly in academia and in tech, et cetera, that the West has been a place where people have tried to throw off traditionalism, and kind of lineage, and who your parents are, what school you went to and the past as a determinant of what's next and exciting about the future.
一直以来，不仅在围绕毒品的文化中，而且在学术界和科技界等领域，一直存在这样一种传统：西方一直是一个人们试图摆脱传统主义和血统的地方，你的父母是谁，你上过什么学校，你的过去是未来的决定因素，也是令人兴奋的未来。
Whereas, and here we are, an East Coast institution guy and a West Coast institution guy.
然而，我们在这里，是东海岸机构的人和西海岸机构的人。
I think that it's this idea of innovation and the future versus do we stay grounded in history and tradition.
我认为这是创新和未来的理念，而不是我们立足于历史和传统的理念。
And of course there are great institutions on both sides.
当然，双方都有很棒的机构。
What's interesting is that Hopkins, Johns Hopkins Medical School, I think of as a real East Coast academic institution.
有趣的是，霍普金斯大学，约翰·霍普金斯医学院，我认为是一个真正的东海岸学术机构。
It is on the East Coast.
它位于东海岸。
But here you are doing these very pioneering and important and exploratory studies in ...
但在这里，你们正在进行这些非常开创性、重要的探索性研究……
certainly not a hippie-dippie environment, right?
当然不是嬉皮士的环境，对吧？
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
Very conservative psychiatry department.
非常保守的精神病学部门。
Even among psychiatry departments, and as a psychologist in a psychiatry department, psychiatry is certainly more conservative than psychology, even within academics.
即使在精神病学系中，作为精神病学系的心理学家，精神病学也肯定比心理学更加保守，即使在学术界也是如此。
But even amongst psychiatry departments, it's a very conservative department.
但即使在精神病学部门中，它也是一个非常保守的部门。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So we've got the law at the federal level, we've got the law at the state and local level.
因此，我们有联邦一级的法律，也有州和地方一级的法律。
And then we've got this question of whether or not it's going to be physicians — so MDs, people with PhDs or master's degrees — or whether or not it will be kind of a free for all for consumption and ...
然后我们有一个问题是，它是否会是医生——医学博士、博士或硕士学位的人——或者它是否会免费供所有人消费……
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
Life coaches.
生活教练。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The life coaches and the general public.
生活教练和公众。
Cannabis, I'm not a pot smoker, it's never appealed to me, that's just me and my pharmacology.
大麻，我不吸大麻，它从来没有对我有吸引力，这只是我和我的药理学。
But you can buy cannabis most places in the U.S. without a ton of risk, it seems.
但似乎在美国大多数地方都可以购买大麻，而且没有太大的风险。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Are we going to see a time in which you can essentially go into a shop on Abbott Kinney Boulevard in Venice, California, and right now you can go buy marijuana if you have a marijuana card, that's my understanding.
我们是否会看到这样一个时代，你基本上可以走进加利福尼亚州威尼斯雅培金尼大道上的一家商店，而现在如果你有大麻卡，你就可以去购买大麻，这是我的理解。
I see a lot of people going in and out of these stores.
我看到很多人进出这些商店。
The police certainly have no problem with it.
警察当然对此没有任何问题。
Is there going to come a time where people can just go buy psilocybin?
是否有一天人们可以直接购买裸盖菇素？
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
They do in Amsterdam.
他们在阿姆斯特丹这样做。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do you think that time is coming?
你认为那个时刻即将到来吗？
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
I think so, at a certain point.
我认为在某个时刻是这样的。
And I don't know how long ...
而且我也不知道要多久...
It's hard to imagine our current level of drug criminalization holding up for ...
很难想象我们目前的毒品刑事定罪水平能持续下去......
And I'm thinking large spans of time, really in a hundred years, are we going to be doing this 500 years?
我在想很长一段时间，真的是一百年后，我们会这样做五百年吗？
How could that, it's not going to be sustainable.
怎么可能呢，这不可持续。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But in five years for instance.
但例如五年后。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
So I don't think so in the United States.
所以我不认为美国是这样。
I do think eventually you're going to see something like that, because there's going to be no way.
我确实认为最终你会看到类似的事情，因为没有办法。
And I think, I hope that we're going to eventually come so strongly, we're going to move on from this model of criminalizing drugs, that we're really going to focus on regulating drugs at the right level for that drug.
我认为，我希望我们最终能够如此坚定，我们将摆脱这种将毒品定为犯罪的模式，我们真正将重点放在将毒品监管在适当的水平上。
And I like the word regulation better than legalization.
与合法化相比，我更喜欢监管这个词。
So I could imagine what one day regulation, smart regulation might mean for psychedelics.
所以我可以想象有一天监管，明智的监管对致幻剂可能意味着什么。
Maybe it could mean that there will be, whether or not you have a diagnosis of a problem, that it may be that even for personal exploration, you can do this legally, but you first have to maybe take it to court, get a ...
也许这可能意味着，无论您是否诊断出问题，即使是个人探索，您也可以合法地这样做，但您首先必须将其告上法庭，获得......
and I'm not the first to say this, but get equivalent of a driver's license.
我不是第一个这么说的人，但获得相当于驾驶执照的人。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
You have to go to get some sort of training, maybe your first number of experiences need to be with trained guides who can facilitate it.
你必须去接受某种培训，也许你的第一次体验需要与训练有素的导游一起进行，他们可以为你提供便利。
And then the public health information for anyone using this, that this is what risk your use is, all use is going to have risk.
然后向任何使用此产品的人提供公共卫生信息，这就是您的使用风险，所有使用都会有风险。
This is what risk your use is.
这就是您的使用风险。
This is less risky use.
这是风险较小的使用方式。
These are the factors.
这些都是因素。
So I think eventually we're going to be get...
所以我想最终我们会得到...
for any...
对于任何...
But I would say the same thing for methamphetamine and heroin and cocaine, all of these drugs, it's hard to imagine the current approach of just feeding a black market and really exasperating a lot of the harms from drugs that happens under the current model, it's hard to imagine that maintaining ...
但我想说的是，对于甲基苯丙胺、海洛因和可卡因，所有这些毒品，很难想象目前的做法只是为黑市提供食物，并真正激怒了当前模式下发生的毒品造成的许多危害，很难想象维持......
That isn't to say I think it should be in all of the 7-Elevens, sold to kids, at the other extreme.
这并不是说我认为它应该出现在所有 7-11 便利店中，向儿童出售，这是另一个极端。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
But I do think it's probably not going to be soon in the United States.
但我确实认为这可能不会很快在美国发生。
I do want to make the major point that even if psychedelics had never been made illegal, I think the trajectory of the medical research right now would still need to happen.
我确实想强调一点，即使致幻剂从未被定为非法，我认为现在的医学研究轨迹仍然需要发生。
If it's effective as an antidepressant, we need it to be ...
如果它作为抗抑郁药有效，我们需要它......
There's all the evidence suggesting that whatever disorder we're talking about, the efficacy's going to be increased, and the risks are going to be mitigated drastically.
所有证据都表明，无论我们谈论的是哪种疾病，疗效都会提高，风险也会大大降低。
And the types of models we're talking about with the screening, with the preparation, with the integration of cognitive behavioral therapy, or what have you, depending on the disorder you're treating, with the integration afterwards with the professionals.
我们谈论的模型类型包括筛查、准备、认知行为疗法的整合，或者你有什么，这取决于你正在治疗的疾病，以及随后与专业人士的整合。
So we would be doing it anyway, so it's not like this versus that.
所以无论如何我们都会这样做，所以这不是这样对那样的。
So I don't see it as a race between the decriminalization or legalization of these compounds versus their medical development.
因此，我不认为这是这些化合物的非刑事化或合法化与其医学发展之间的竞赛。
Some people who are psychedelic fans get all into a bunch about the medical development.
一些迷幻迷幻药迷热衷于医学发展。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
They say, "You guys want to keep it only for your medical research, and I retire and you want to be in control of it as academics." And my take is, I didn't make it illegal for anyone.
他们说，“你们只想保留它用于医学研究，我退休了，你们想作为学者来控制它。”我的看法是，我没有让任何人都认为这是非法的。
We're only moving the needle in one direction.
我们只是将指针朝一个方向移动。
And again, even if it was already illegal, and I've done plenty of survey research of people reporting they took mushrooms for fun or for personal exploration, and they said, "My God, why am I smoking?" And they quit smoking 20 years because of it, or it's helped with their depression, or it's helped with them overcoming alcoholism.
再说一次，即使这已经是非法的，我对人们进行了大量的调查研究，报告说他们为了好玩或个人探索而服用蘑菇，他们说，“天哪，我为什么要吸烟？”他们因此戒烟了 20 年，或者帮助他们缓解了抑郁症，或者帮助他们克服了酗酒。
Sometimes that happens out of the blue when people use psychedelics.
有时，当人们使用迷幻药时，这种情况会突然发生。
Nonetheless, obviously the efficacy rates are going to be higher when you bring it into these medical models, and it's going to be safer.
尽管如此，显然，当你将其引入这些医学模型时，有效率会更高，而且会更安全。
So we need to be pushing that.
所以我们需要推动这一点。
And my best guess is that MDMA is going to be approved within the next three years and ...
我最好的猜测是 MDMA 将在未来三年内获得批准并且......
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
For prescription by a physician?
需要医生处方吗？
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
Yes.
是的。
And not just take two and call me in the morning.
而且不只是拿两个早上给我打电话。
But in the clinics, the way that those PTSD trials are being run, so the MDMA would be approved for PTSD, and every disorder needs to be looked at separately, and it's going to only be approved for those things.
但在诊所中，按照这些 PTSD 试验的运行方式，MDMA 将被批准用于治疗 PTSD，每种疾病都需要单独研究，而且它只会被批准用于这些疾病。
Now there's going to be questions ...
现在会有疑问...
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right, because approved and legalized and regulated — now we're getting into the nuance.
是的，因为已经获得批准、合法化和监管——现在我们正在深入探讨其中的细微差别。
I think when people hear it's going to be approved in two years, they think that they'll be able to buy and sell and use MDMA without legal consequences.
我认为，当人们听说它将在两年内获得批准时，他们认为他们将能够买卖和使用 MDMA，而不会产生法律后果。
And I do not think that's going to be the situation.
我认为情况不会是这样。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
That is not going to be the case.
事实并非如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's not the way it is.
事情不是这样的。
And I will say that I think the "psychedelic community," they've been doing what they want to, and will carry on doing what they want to anyway, right?
我会说，我认为“迷幻社区”，他们一直在做他们想做的事，并且无论如何都会继续做他们想做的事，对吗？
It's not like the legal status has prevented them from doing what they're doing.
法律地位并没有阻止他们做他们正在做的事情。
In fact, unlike Timothy Leary and Huxley and some of the others that were very vocal and lost their jobs, and some who even went to jail, et cetera, I mean, you got a lot of public figures now, like McKenna and others, who are just basically out there talking about psychedelics.
事实上，与蒂莫西·利里（Timothy Leary）和赫胥黎（Huxley）以及其他一些非常直言不讳并失去工作的人不同，有些人甚至进了监狱等等，我的意思是，现在有很多公众人物，比如麦肯纳和其他人，他们基本上只是在那里谈论迷幻药。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Michael Pollan, who is more of a writer-foodie guy, gone psychedelic dabbler-writer guy.
迈克尔·波伦（Michael Pollan）更像是一个作家兼美食家，现在变成了迷幻的涉足作家。
I know he's kind of a polymath, but the legal status didn't seem to hinder their, at least online careers.
我知道他是一位博学者，但法律地位似乎并没有妨碍他们，至少是在线职业生涯。
I don't know.
我不知道。
I haven't looked at their bank accounts, but I'm imagining they're doing just fine.
我没有看过他们的银行账户，但我想他们应该过得很好。
So the fact that work is happening inside of big institutions, I think it's important that you point out, and I'm just trying to underscore — that's in no way antagonistic to what people are doing.
因此，事实上工作是在大型机构内部进行的，我认为你指出这一点很重要，我只是想强调——这绝不与人们正在做的事情相矛盾。
It's in support of a different sort of mission, which is to explore the validity in different context in a really controlled way, which I think it's a really important mission.
它支持一种不同类型的使命，即以一种真正受控的方式探索不同背景下的有效性，我认为这是一个非常重要的使命。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I want to make sure that I ask you about the other really important mission that you're involved in with respect to psychedelics, which is not about depression per se, but is about neurological ...
我想确保我问你关于迷幻剂的另一个非常重要的任务，这不是关于抑郁症本身，而是关于神经系统......
a neurologic injury, or head injury.
神经损伤或头部损伤。
I realize it's early days for this, but I think there's a lot of concussion out there, sadly.
我意识到现在还为时过早，但遗憾的是，我认为目前存在很多震荡。
There's a lot of TBI, traumatic brain injury, not just from sports.
TBI（创伤性脑损伤）的发生率很高，而不仅仅是运动造成的。
I think people sometimes forget that it's not ...
我认为人们有时会忘记这不是......
The major source of traumatic head injury is not football, it's not hockey, it's not boxing, it's not any of that stuff.
头部外伤的主要来源不是足球，不是曲棍球，不是拳击，不是任何其他运动。
It's construction workers.
是建筑工人。
And if you've ever seen the helmets that construction workers wear, I mean ...
如果你见过建筑工人戴的头盔，我的意思是......
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
The jackhammer, oh my God.
手提钻，天哪。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The jackhammer ...
手提钻...
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
How could that not be just ...
这怎么可能不只是...
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
I have a colleague that works on this in bioengineering.
我有一位同事在生物工程领域从事这方面的工作。
And when you look at the ...
当你看到...
We always think sports, but there are many people who make a living in a way that is, over time is detrimental to their brain, and they don't have the option of just not being a professional athlete or something of that sort.
我们总是想到体育，但有很多人的谋生方式随着时间的推移对他们的大脑有害，他们没有选择不成为职业运动员或类似的人。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
And if they're not doing the construction, someone else needs to do it.
如果他们不进行施工，则需要其他人来进行。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Someone else has to do it.
必须由其他人来做。
Right.
正确的。
And for some reason, and I too, it didn't occur to me until I heard it, the people who are doing construction, and then of course with bike accidents and falls and things like that as well.
出于某种原因，我也是如此，直到我听到正在做建筑的人们，当然还有自行车事故和跌倒之类的事情，我才想到这一点。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
Military.
军事。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Military, absolutely.
军事，绝对。
So what do you think is the potential for these compounds, particularly psilocybin, but other compounds as well, for the treatment and possible even reversal of neurological injuries, and what sorts of things are you excited to do in that realm?
那么，您认为这些化合物（尤其是裸盖菇素）以及其他化合物在治疗甚至可能逆转神经损伤方面的潜力是什么？您对在该领域做哪些事情感到兴奋？
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
Yeah, so this is definitely on the more exploratory end.
是的，所以这绝对是更具探索性的。
So it's based upon ...
所以它是基于...
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
...
...
on the more exploratory end, so this is based upon the improvement of psychiatric disorders like depression, or depression and anxiety associated with a terminal illness, or a substance use disorder, the addiction.
从更具探索性的角度来看，这是基于精神疾病的改善，例如抑郁症，或与绝症相关的抑郁和焦虑，或物质使用障碍，即成瘾。
Those are sort of psychiatric disorders.
这些都是精神疾病。
There are anecdotes of people saying that psychedelics have helped heal their brain.
有传闻说，迷幻药有助于治愈他们的大脑。
They've been in one of these situations, like in sports, a sport where there's repetitive head impact, and they're claiming that using psychedelics has actually improved their cognitive function, for example, improved their memory, including improved their mood.
他们曾经经历过其中一种情况，比如在体育运动中，这是一种重复性头部撞击的运动，他们声称使用迷幻药实际上改善了他们的认知功能，例如，改善了他们的记忆力，包括改善了他们的情绪。
But it's kind of more of the cognitive function, things like memory are ...
但这更多的是认知功能，比如记忆……
Now, caveat is if you've successfully improved someone's depression, you can get some cognitive improvement too.
现在，需要注意的是，如果你成功改善了某人的抑郁症，你的认知能力也能得到一些改善。
But that's a more of a weaker, more indirect effect.
但这是一种更弱、更间接的影响。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
But if you take these anecdotes and you combine it way across orders of analysis to the rodent research from several labs, like David Olson, Brian Roth, these folks that have shown different forms of neuroplasticity unfolding postacutely, so after, in the days following the administration of psychedelic compounds, a variety of psychedelic compounds, and even some nonpsychedelic structural analogs, that you see these different forms of neuroplasticity.
但是，如果你将这些轶事结合起来，将来自几个实验室的啮齿动物研究的分析顺序结合起来，比如大卫·奥尔森、布莱恩·罗斯，这些人已经显示出不同形式的神经可塑性在急性后展开，所以在服用迷幻化合物、各种迷幻化合物，甚至一些非迷幻结构类似物后的几天里，你会看到这些不同形式的神经可塑性。
The growth of dendrites and new connections being formed with different neurons.
树突的生长以及与不同神经元形成的新连接。
Those effects may be at play in the psychiatric treatments that we're dealing with, we don't know that.
这些影响可能在我们正在处理的精神治疗中发挥作用，但我们并不知道。
It seems like a decent guess, and we're going to be figuring out whether that's the case.
这似乎是一个不错的猜测，我们将弄清楚情况是否如此。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
But another potential that that sets up is that maybe that's what's going on with these claims of improvements from neurological issues, that there's actually a repair of the brain from injuries underlying things, situations where there's repetitive head impact.
但由此产生的另一个潜力是，也许这就是这些神经系统问题改善的说法所发生的情况，实际上，大脑可以从潜在的损伤、重复性头部撞击的情况下得到修复。
Perhaps there's a potential for helping folks recover from stroke and disorders like that.
也许有可能帮助人们从中风和类似疾病中康复。
There's a wide variety of disorders now.
现在有各种各样的疾病。
It's a bit of magic and a bit of ...
这有点神奇，也有点……
It's something that the enthusiasts kind of can do some hand-waving and claim that this is already known.
狂热者们可以挥挥手并声称这是已知的。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
It is more exploratory.
它更具探索性。
But what I'm hoping to do is some work with retired athletes who have been exposed, but by the nature of their sport, for example, MMA athletes in the UFC who have been exposed to repetitive head impacts like a lot of sports expose people to, and who are retired from the sport, and are suffering from say depression, which can in part result from that history of head impact.
但我希望做的是与那些曾遭受过头部撞击的退役运动员做一些工作，但由于其运动的性质，例如，UFC 中的 MMA 运动员，他们像许多运动一样，受到过重复的头部撞击，并且从这项运动中退役，并且患有抑郁症，这在一定程度上可能是由于头部撞击的历史造成的。
See if we can fix the depression, but then also as a cherry on top, in a more exploratory aim, see if we can have evidence of improvement and cognitive function and associate like using MRI to see if it affects gray matter over time.
看看我们是否可以解决抑郁症，但作为一个更探索性的目标，看看我们是否可以有改善和认知功能的证据，并像使用 MRI 一样，看看它是否会随着时间的推移影响灰质。
These types of things, to see if there are actually some evidence of this improved ...
这些类型的事情，看看是否确实有一些证据表明这种改进......
This more direct repair of the brain.
这样更直接修复大脑。
But again, it is very like ...
但话又说回来，这很像……
we've got some rodent data, we've got some human anecdotes-
我们有一些啮齿动物的数据，我们有一些人类的轶事-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We will acknowledge it's early days and we look forward to seeing the data.
我们承认现在还处于早期阶段，我们期待看到数据。
I appreciate how cautious you are and tentative you are, you're not drawing any conclusions.
我很欣赏你的谨慎和试探，你没有得出任何结论。
I think from a purely logical and somewhat mechanistic perspective, I mean if we assume that lack of ability to focus or degradation in mood is the reflection of neurons in the brain, I think we can agree on that, some dialogue between neurons in the brain, and that what needs to be changed is the nature of that dialogue, aka neuroplasticity.
我认为，从纯粹逻辑和某种程度上机械论的角度来看，我的意思是，如果我们假设缺乏专注能力或情绪下降是大脑中神经元的反映，我认为我们可以同意这一点，即大脑中神经元之间的一些对话，而需要改变的是这种对话的本质，即神经可塑性。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We know that reordering of neurocircuitry in the adult requires these things like intense focus followed by rest, et cetera.
我们知道，成人神经回路的重新排序需要诸如高度集中注意力然后休息等等。
But the basis for that, beneath focus is a mechanism, rather beneath the bin that we call deep rest is a mechanism.
但其基础是，在焦点之下是一种机制，而不是在我们称之为深度休息的垃圾箱之下是一种机制。
And those mechanisms are neuromodulator driven.
这些机制是神经调节剂驱动的。
To me, I'm not reviewing your grant, but from a rational perspective, it seems that drugs that increase certain neuromodulators, like serotonin or dopamine, in a controlled way, and then coupling that with learning of some sort, sensory input of some sort; it makes sense that that would lead to, could I should say, lead to reordering of circuitry that would allow for better thinking, better mood.
对我来说，我不是在审查你的资助，但从理性的角度来看，似乎药物以受控的方式增加某些神经调节剂，如血清素或多巴胺，然后将其与某种学习、某种感觉输入结合起来；这是有道理的，我可以说，这将导致电路的重新排序，从而允许更好的思考，更好的心情。
Many of the same things that you've observed in the clinical trials for depression.
许多与您在抑郁症临床试验中观察到的情况相同。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The rationale is really strong.
理由确实很强大。
I think that's a very exciting area.
我认为这是一个非常令人兴奋的领域。
I get asked all the time about TBI and traumatic brain injury, and right now there isn't a whole lot that people can do, and people are dabbling in the space of hyperbaric chambers, and people do sauna and breathwork, and people are clipping at the margins of what really is a problem that resides deep to the skull.
我总是被问到关于 TBI 和创伤性脑损伤的问题，现在人们能做的并不多，人们涉足高压舱的空间，人们做桑拿和呼吸，人们正在边缘化真正存在于颅骨深处的问题。
I think I just want to applaud the exploration.
我想我只是想为这种探索鼓掌。
I think it's great, provided that exploration is being done in a controlled way.
我认为这很好，只要探索是以受控的方式进行的。
It sounds like that's what you're doing with the UFC.
听起来这就是你对 UFC 所做的事情。
Great.
伟大的。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
Yeah.
是的。
They were really gracious and had myself and a few of my colleagues out to their headquarters in Vegas.
他们非常友善，邀请我和我的一些同事前往他们位于维加斯的总部。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Impressive place, right?
令人印象深刻的地方，对吧？
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
It's in process.
正在进行中。
There's a dialogue going on there.
那里正在进行对话。
I'm hopeful that there's going to be some work with them, but it's in process now, in terms of exploring it.
我希望能够与他们进行一些合作，但就探索而言，现在正在进行中。
There's a real interest, and I'm just really impressed by the organization and their commitment to athlete health.
他们确实很感兴趣，而且该组织及其对运动员健康的承诺给我留下了深刻的印象。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I am too.
我也是。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
We'll see.
我们拭目以待。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, I am too.
是的，我也是。
We have a colleague out there, we're doing a little bit of work with them, Duncan French, who's a serious academic in his own right.
我们有一位同事，我们正在与他们一起做一些工作，邓肯·弗伦奇（Duncan French），他本身就是一位严肃的学者。
And I think when people hear UFC they just think about the Octagon and fighting and pay-per-view fights, and things.
我认为当人们听到 UFC 时，他们只会想到八角笼、格斗和按次付费的格斗等等。
But in talking with them, and I'm sure you've had these discussions as well, they are very much interested in the health and longevity of their fighters.
但在与他们交谈时，我相信你也进行过这些讨论，他们对战士的健康和寿命非常感兴趣。
They are also interested in the health and longevity of their fighters being a template for how to treat traumatic brain injury and improve human performance in other sports and in the general public.
他们还对拳手的健康和寿命感兴趣，以此作为如何治疗创伤性脑损伤和提高人类在其他运动和公众中的表现的模板。
And I think it's not an image of the UFC that commonly comes to mind, because they haven't been particularly verbal about it in the press.
我认为人们通常不会想到 UFC 的形象，因为他们并没有在媒体上对此进行过特别的口头宣传。
But I think it's great they're bringing in academics.
但我认为他们引进学者是件好事。
I mean, geeks like us going out to the UFC performance center.
我的意思是，像我们这样的极客会去 UFC 表演中心。
I mean you do MMA, but I'm basically just a geek walking through the place.
我的意思是你参加综合格斗，但我基本上只是一个走过这个地方的极客。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But the fact that they're interested in talking to scientists is really — I'm biased here, but a point in their favor.
但他们有兴趣与科学家交谈这一事实确实是——我在这里有偏见，但这对他们有利。
Along the lines of other groups and individuals that have impacted the space that you're working in and this pioneering of the psychedelic space a few years ago, I think if someone submitted a grant saying, "I want to study how psilocybin impacts human depression," I'm guessing having worked on these panels before, that the response might have been closer to, "Well we need to do a lot of studies in rodents and a lot of studies in primates, and then maybe, just maybe we could explore these drugs," because the National Institutes of Health actually has a whole institute devoted to addiction, exploring compounds only in terms of their negative effects, which is where-
沿着影响你正在工作的领域和几年前迷幻领域先驱的其他团体和个人的思路，我想如果有人提交了一笔拨款，说：“我想研究裸盖菇素如何影响人类抑郁症，”我猜以前曾在这些小组上工作过，那么反应可能更接近于，“好吧，我们需要在啮齿类动物和灵长类动物中进行大量研究，然后也许，也许我们可以探索这些药物”，因为美国国立卫生研究院实际上有一个专门研究成瘾的研究所，仅根据化合物的负面影响来探索化合物，这就是——
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
Yeah.
是的。
NIDA, which is where I've gotten all of my NIH funding over my career.
NIDA，我在职业生涯中获得了 NIH 的所有资助。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Which is so interesting and it's a super important institute.
这很有趣，而且是一个非常重要的机构。
I want to be clear, there are amazing people there.
我想澄清的是，那里有很多了不起的人。
But philanthropy and foundations have been very important in supporting pioneering research.
但慈善事业和基金会在支持开创性研究方面非常重要。
And so maybe we'll just talk a little bit about that.
所以也许我们会稍微讨论一下这个问题。
Your lab receives funding from taxpayer dollars through the National Institutes of Health.
您的实验室通过美国国立卫生研究院获得纳税人资金的资助。
Is that mainly where your funding comes from?
您的资金主要来自于此吗？
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
Our group has gotten some funding from, say, the National Institute on Drug Abuse, NIDA, for some, a small subset of the psychedelic work, but only for some work geared towards understanding these things as drugs of abuse.
我们的小组从国家药物滥用研究所（NIDA）那里获得了一些资金，用于一些迷幻药工作的一小部分，但仅限于一些旨在将这些东西理解为滥用药物的工作。
Of course when you do a study though, you can show ask Andrew Huberman:
当然，当你进行研究时，你可以询问 Andrew Huberman：
Show us how they're bad.
让我们看看他们有多糟糕。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
Right.
对。
But when you're doing that, you can explore the good stuff too.
但当你这样做时，你也可以探索好的东西。
But the large majority of the work and the most interesting work has been funded by philanthropy-
但绝大多数工作和最有趣的工作都是由慈善事业资助的——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Private philanthropy.
私人慈善事业。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
Now, I still have some grant support from NIDA outside of psychedelics.
现在，除了致幻剂之外，我仍然得到 NIDA 的一些资助。
I'm shifting more and more of my time towards focusing only on psychedelics, and in fact, us getting the center level funding from some really big-picture philanthropists helped me to start to make that transition.
我正在将越来越多的时间转移到只关注迷幻药上，事实上，我们从一些真正有大局的慈善家那里获得了中心级别的资金，帮助我开始实现这一转变。
But groups like the Heffter Research organization, Dennis McKenna, is one of the founding members — the brother of Terence McKenna — who's, by the way, an ethnobotanist.
但像赫夫特研究组织这样的团体，丹尼斯·麦肯纳是创始成员之一——特伦斯·麦肯纳的兄弟——顺便说一句，他是一位民族植物学家。
That's what his PhD is in.
这就是他的博士研究方向。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What does that mean, an ethnobotanist?
民族植物学家这是什么意思？
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
Studying essentially the anthropology of psychoactive plant use.
主要研究精神活性植物使用的人类学。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You can get a degree in that?
你可以获得这方面的学位吗？
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
Yeah, yeah.
是啊，是啊。
Hanging out with cultures and studying their use of these compounds in the traditional ways.
接触各种文化并研究他们以传统方式使用这些化合物。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
At Hopkins?
在霍普金斯？
That degree exists at Johns Hopkins?
约翰霍普金斯大学有这个学位吗？
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
I don't think that degree exists at Hopkins, but I mean the kind of the most ...
我认为霍普金斯大学不存在这个学位，但我的意思是最......
As you know from academia, sometimes folks, I'm not sure how many people's PhD is actually in ethnobotany or-
正如你们从学术界（有时是朋友）知道的那样，我不确定有多少人的博士学位实际上是民族植物学的，或者-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I've never heard of it before.
我以前从未听说过。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
...
...
it's actually in something else.
它实际上是在别的东西里。
But the real focus is, my degree is general experimental psychology.
但真正的重点是，我的学位是普通实验心理学。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Ten thousand kids out there just decided they're going to major in ethnobotany.
一万名孩子刚刚决定主修民族植物学。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
I mean one of the pioneers of the psychedelic era, before Leary, and actually he was late even for the human researchers, folks like Humphry Osmond and Abram Hoffer and Sidney Cohen were earlier.
我的意思是迷幻时代的先驱之一，在利里之前，实际上他甚至对于人类研究人员来说也迟到了，像汉弗莱·奥斯蒙德、艾布拉姆·霍弗和西德尼·科恩这样的人更早。
But even before those folks, Richard Schultes at Harvard — I mentioned him earlier in the conversation — discovered all of these various tribes using ayahuasca, or yagé, a different name for the same thing, throughout South America, and these DMT-containing snuffs, and all of this; that was ethnobotany, this kind of intersection of anthropology and these psychoactive plant compounds.
But even before those folks, Richard Schultes at Harvard — I mentioned him earlier in the conversation — discovered all of these various tribes using ayahuasca, or yagé, a different name for the same thing, throughout South America, and these DMT-containing snuffs, and all of this;这就是民族植物学，人类学和这些具有精神活性的植物化合物的交叉点。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
The Heffter Research Institute, which Dennis is a founding and active member of, they have funded a lot of our early work.
丹尼斯是赫夫特研究所的创始者和积极成员，他们资助了我们的许多早期工作。
There's also an organization called the Beckley Institute, based in England, that a lady, Amanda Feilding, has been the head of; they provided the first funding for our psilocybin smoking cessation research.
还有一个名为“贝克利研究所”的组织，总部位于英国，由阿曼达·菲尔丁女士担任该组织的负责人。他们为我们的裸盖菇素戒烟研究提供了第一笔资金。
And the Heffter came in and provided subsequent funding.
赫夫特进来并提供了后续资金。
And then there are other groups like Council on Spiritual Practices.
还有其他团体，例如精神实践委员会。
A great guy named Bob Jesse funded some of the original work at Hopkins looking at the nature of mystical experience outside of treating disease states or disorders.
一位名叫鲍勃·杰西（Bob Jesse）的伟人资助了霍普金斯大学的一些原创工作，研究治疗疾病状态或失调之外的神秘体验的本质。
But just understanding, these people take these compounds and, astonishingly, frequently will say, "That was the most important thing I've ever experienced.
But just understanding, these people take these compounds and, astonishingly, frequently will say, "That was the most important thing I've ever experienced.
What the hell is that?"
那是什么鬼？”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I had someone mention recently, I think this might surprise people a little bit, it certainly surprised me.
最近有人提到，我想这可能会让人们感到惊讶，这当然让我感到惊讶。
I had a friend who adores his children, he's got three children, he adores his children.
我有一个朋友，他很喜欢他的孩子，他有三个孩子，他很喜欢他的孩子。
A happy marriage and great, great father, they're both great parents.
幸福的婚姻和伟大的父亲，他们都是伟大的父母。
And he told me that as part of a clinical trial, he had a DMT experience that he claims ...
他告诉我，作为临床试验的一部分，他有过 DMT 经历，他声称......
he said, "I'd love to tell you that the birth of my children was as profound, but that was a more profound experience than the birth of my children.
他说：“我很想告诉你，我的孩子的出生同样深刻，但那是比我孩子的出生更深刻的经历。
Any one of them and all of them combined." And I was like, wow.
它们中的任何一个以及所有它们的组合。”我当时想，哇。
Now I've never done DMT but I was like, wow, that's a pretty strong statement.
现在我从未做过 DMT，但我当时想，哇，这是一个非常有力的声明。
Now he did it in the context of one of these clinical explorations.
现在他在其中一项临床探索的背景下做到了这一点。
I assume that was part of a legal clinical trial.
我认为这是合法临床试验的一部分。
But I mean that's saying something.
但我的意思是这说明了一些事情。
It's saying something.
它在说着什么。
I mean he's a very rational, very grounded guy otherwise, but ...
我的意思是他是一个非常理性、非常脚踏实地的人，但是......
so philanthropy foundations.
所以慈善基金会。
And then-
然后——
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
Most recently, so sorry because I can't skip it.
最近，很抱歉，因为我无法跳过它。
Our center level-
我们的中心层——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, you can't skip it.
是的，你不能跳过它。
You can't skip .
你不能跳过。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
...
...
funding which came a year and a half.
融资历时一年半。
I mean the Heffter Group, the Beckley Group, I mean these are wonderful.
我的意思是赫夫特集团、贝克利集团，我的意思是这些都很棒。
I mean these are people that have been holding the flame alive during the darkest hours.
我的意思是，这些人在最黑暗的时刻一直坚守着火焰。
The same thing with the MAPS organization, more on the MDMA side, holding that candle during the darkest years.
MAPS 组织也是如此，更多的是在 MDMA 方面，在最黑暗的岁月里举起蜡烛。
But smaller organizations connected to smaller ...
但较小的组织与较小的组织相连......
But growing over time, pockets of wealth.
但随着时间的推移，财富不断增长。
But we basically limped along on a wing and a prayer until recently when we got the $17 million gift so that we could create a nominal center, and as you know, basically to the university, that means you get a certain number of dollars, and a lot of them, you can call yourself a center.
但我们基本上是一瘸一拐地前进，直到最近我们收到了 1700 万美元的礼物，这样我们就可以创建一个名义上的中心，正如你所知，基本上是对大学来说，这意味着你得到一定数量的美元，而且很多，你可以称自己为中心。
It's a capital investment, staff, equipment, salary support, which has always been the huge thing for us.
这是资本投资、员工、设备、薪资支持，这对我们来说一直是一件大事。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
But the $17 million gift, which was split between the Cohen Foundation, so Steven and Alexandra Cohen, they covered half of it.
但这 1700 万美元的捐款由科恩基金会平分，所以史蒂文和亚历山德拉·科恩承担了一半。
And the other half, the Tim Ferris collaborative; basically Tim and a few friends ponied up, divided the rest of that, half of that $17 million gift and came together to just ...
另一半是蒂姆·费里斯 (Tim Ferris) 的合作；基本上，蒂姆和几个朋友掏了钱，分了剩下的，即 1700 万美元礼物的一半，然后聚在一起……
I mean, it's completely transformed the work that we've done and our ability to fully delve into this area and not worry that, "Oh, if I focus on this rather than putting another three NIDA grants on some other topic that may or may not get funded, if I focus too much on the psychedelics, am I putting my career at jeopardy?"
我的意思是，它彻底改变了我们已经完成的工作以及我们充分深入研究这一领域的能力，而不必担心，“哦，如果我专注于此，而不是将另外三笔 NIDA 拨款用于其他可能会或可能不会得到资助的主题，如果我过于关注迷幻药，我是否会将我的职业生涯置于危险之中？”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You're not only a tenured professor, you're also a full endowed ...
您不仅是一位终身教授，而且还是一位才华横溢的...
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
Right.
对。
So that came-
于是乎——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
By the way, when you say somebody is a fully endowed professor, want to be very clear what that means.
顺便说一句，当你说某人是一位天赋异禀的教授时，你要清楚这意味着什么。
That means that there's funding-
这意味着有资金——
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
It might mean all of the above, but no.
这可能意味着以上所有内容，但不是。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I have no knowledge of your particular situation, but you probably do.
我不知道你的具体情况，但你可能知道。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
Just kidding.
开玩笑。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sure.
当然。
What we're essentially saying is that funding, which does not change somebody's salary level — I just want to be clear, because I think the general public, there's no reason why they would understand all the nuts and bolts of how this works.
我们本质上说的是资金，它不会改变某人的工资水平——我只是想澄清一下，因为我认为公众没有理由理解它是如何运作的所有细节。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
Academia is weird.
学术界很奇怪。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Academia is weird because we're not talking about increasing, we're not talking about an endowment or philanthropy that went to increase Matt's salary.
Academia is weird because we're not talking about increasing, we're not talking about an endowment or philanthropy that went to increase Matt's salary.
That's something that's set at the university level.
这是在大学层面设定的。
It's always been said, and it is, at least is still true now, which is that nobody goes into science for the money, at least not at the academic level, not in academia.
人们总是说，至少现在仍然如此，那就是没有人为了钱而进入科学领域，至少在学术层面，在学术界不是。
But allows people to devote more of their time and energy to these exploratory realms like psychedelic research or, in the case of my lab, the work that we're doing with David Spiegel's lab on respiration, breathwork and hypnosis for moduling brain states.
但允许人们将更多的时间和精力投入到这些探索领域，例如迷幻研究，或者就我的实验室而言，我们正在与大卫·斯皮格尔的实验室一起进行呼吸、呼吸和催眠调节大脑状态的工作。
These are not typically areas that the National Institutes of Health and other major organizations have institutions set up to support.
这些通常不是美国国立卫生研究院和其他主要组织设立机构来支持的领域。
Now there is an exciting initiative, which is the NCCIH, which is complementary health.
现在有一个令人兴奋的举措，就是NCCIH，即补充健康。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
Used to be INCAM.
曾经是INCAM。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, and then NIH.
是的，然后是国立卫生研究院。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
They changed their name.
他们改变了名字。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And now we're not just throwing out acronyms just to bat back and forth acronyms, but I think what we're seeing now is a movement toward science and scientists and clinicians and the general public and philanthropy being engaged in this dialogue which says, okay, there are problems in the world.
现在我们不只是为了来回使用缩写词而扔掉缩写词，但我认为我们现在看到的是一场科学、科学家、临床医生以及公众和慈善事业参与这场对话的运动，这表明，好吧，世界上存在问题。
Depression, head trauma, psychological trauma, PTSD, ADHD.
抑郁症、头部创伤、心理创伤、创伤后应激障碍（PTSD）、多动症（ADHD）。
These problems clearly exist.
这些问题显然是存在的。
The solutions are going to involve behaviors that are going to involve nutrition, supplementation, social connection.
解决方案将涉及涉及营养、补充品和社会联系的行为。
However, there are drugs, there are compounds that can change the brain and allow the brain to change its circuitry through experience, and psychedelics are one of several others, but one of the powerful levers, it sounds like.
然而，有些药物、有些化合物可以改变大脑，让大脑通过经验改变其电路，致幻剂是其他几种药物之一，但听起来像是强大的杠杆之一。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I just want to say that I think the reason I reached out to you and am so excited to sit down and chat with you is because I see very few people inside the halls of academia who have thrown their arms around this issue of psychedelics, in a way, and gone through the trouble of trying to find the funding to get it done, gone through the trouble of trying to set up clinical trials.
我只想说，我想我之所以联系你们，并如此兴奋地坐下来与你们聊天，是因为我看到学术界的大厅里很少有人在某种程度上热衷于迷幻药的问题，并经历了试图找到资金来完成它的麻烦，经历了尝试建立临床试验的麻烦。
I know what's involved in doing this.
我知道这样做涉及到什么。
It's so complicated.
太复杂了。
It's so time-consuming and painstaking.
真是费时又费力啊。
And you've made real progress.
你已经取得了真正的进步。
I mean, you guys are publishing papers.
我的意思是，你们正在发表论文。
There's a new dialogue emerging that isn't just books on bookshelves and psychedelic psychonaut gurus on the Internet, who also play an important role.
一种新的对话正在出现，不仅仅是书架上的书籍和互联网上的迷幻心理专家，他们也发挥着重要作用。
But you are really moving this field forward.
但你们确实在推动这个领域向前发展。
And I know there are others as well.
And I know there are others as well.
There are colleagues in England, and others as well.
在英国有同事，也有其他人。
We acknowledge them.
我们承认他们。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But I just want to say personally that I'm inspired and impressed by the way that you've gone about this and the level of rigor.
但我个人只想说，你们处理这件事的方式和严谨程度给我带来了启发和印象深刻。
I mean, when I ask you a question about serotonin, most people just kind of kick back to me, "Well yeah, you got receptors and you got ligand." But I mean it's clear to me that you care about the details and that you care about the future of this area, and you also really care about these patients and these individuals.
我的意思是，当我问你一个关于血清素的问题时，大多数人只是回击我，“嗯，是的，你有受体，你有配体。”但我的意思是，我很清楚，您关心细节，关心这个领域的未来，而且您也真正关心这些患者和这些人。
I know I'm speaking on behalf of a ton of people now, and in the future, that don't even know what they're going to receive as a consequence of this.
我知道我现在代表很多人说话，而在未来，他们甚至不知道他们会因此而收到什么。
I just want to voice a real sincere thank you for that effort.
我只想对你们的努力表示衷心的感谢。
It's like your lab and your work matters.
这就像你的实验室和你的工作很重要一样。
And that's a really special and unique thing.
这是一件非常特别和独特的事情。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
I appreciate that.
我很欣赏这一点。
I had a good colleague, in fact we shared some grant support under the multi PI system years ago, and she actually took a job at NIH as a review officer, and I remember her telling me...
我有一个很好的同事，事实上我们几年前在多 PI 系统下分享了一些资助支持，她实际上在 NIH 担任审查官，我记得她告诉我......
And she actually left when she had multiple R01s, so it's like she didn't Andrew Huberman:
事实上，当她拥有多台 R01 时，她就离开了，所以就好像她没有安德鲁·休伯曼 (Andrew Huberman) 一样：
R01s are kind of the bread and butter big-
R01s are kind of the bread and butter big-
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
The big-fish grants.
大鱼赠款。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
grants that every card carrying ...
允许每张卡携带...
It's a mark of respect in our community to have one or several of these.
拥有其中一个或多个是我们社区中一种尊重的标志。
Yeah.
是的。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
Yeah.
是的。
And it's like you eat what you kill in academia.
这就像在学术界吃掉你杀掉的东西一样。
It gets to what we were talking about later.
这就涉及到我们后面要讲的事情了。
It's like you don't make more money by pulling more grants, but you're able to pay the salary that ...
这就像你并不能通过获得更多的资助来赚更多的钱，但你可以支付...
The university doesn't pay you your salary.
大学不给你工资。
It goes through them.
它穿过他们。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You're just able to do more work.
你只能做更多的工作。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
And if you don't pull in the grants to cover your salary, your job can come to an end.
如果你不领取补助金来支付你的工资，你的工作就会结束。
Even if you're tenured at a place like Hopkins, they can do tricks like slowly lower your salary over these Andrew Huberman:
即使你在霍普金斯这样的地方获得终身教职，他们也可以采取一些伎俩，比如慢慢降低你的工资，而不是安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman）：
Or they just escort you ...
Or they just escort you ...
Or they just take away your space.
Or they just take away your space.
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
Yeah, they put you in a closet and give you no support for trainees and basically make life hell for you.
是的，他们把你关在柜子里，不给你任何对实习生的支持，基本上让你的生活变得地狱。
You could drive a cab in Baltimore and call yourself a full professor at Hopkins, truthfully, but you may have no ability to get anything done.
老实说，你可以在巴尔的摩开出租车，并称自己为霍普金斯大学的正教授，但你可能没有能力完成任何事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm sure they're out there.
我确信他们就在那里。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
But yeah, I remember one of the things this colleague said, who is successful but left on top, said, "I really don't know that I'm making a difference in the world." And she did some great memory research connected to drugs, also connected to aging.
但是，是的，我记得这位成功但仍处于领先地位的同事说过的话，“我真的不知道我正在改变世界。”她做了一些与药物有关的伟大记忆研究，也与衰老有关。
But she said, "I don't feel the impact of what I'm doing in the real world." And it's unfortunately there for a lot of academia.
但她说，“我感觉不到我所做的事情对现实世界的影响。”不幸的是，许多学术界都存在这种情况。
What we do, it stays in the ivory tower, the world is-
我们所做的，它留在象牙塔里，世界是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Not anymore.
不再是了。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
It's a beautiful but messed up place, and a lot of this doesn't disseminate.
这是一个美丽但混乱的地方，其中很多都没有传播开来。
And because of the various structures, the way the world is set up, and thankfully this ...
由于不同的结构和世界的建立方式，值得庆幸的是......
I mean, because of the work that our group as well as a few others around the world over the last 20 years, it's like you do have an emerging psychedelic startup industry now with billions of dollars of investment.
我的意思是，由于我们团队以及世界各地的其他一些人在过去 20 年里所做的工作，就像你现在确实拥有一个新兴的迷幻创业行业，拥有数十亿美元的投资。
And yeah, that's going to turn into both good and bad.
是的，这会变得有好有坏。
It's upping the ante.
它正在加大赌注。
There's going to be a lot of good and bad that comes from that, but any new technology is going to result in that.
这会带来很多好处和坏处，但任何新技术都会导致这种情况。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
But we've got psilocybin designated for two separate entities as a breakthrough therapy by the FDA, and people may not realize, and MDMA is designated as a breakthrough therapy for PTSD.
但我们已经将裸盖菇素指定为两个独立实体作为 FDA 的突破性疗法，人们可能没有意识到，而 MDMA 被指定为 PTSD 的突破性疗法。
This is a really big deal.
这确实是一件大事。
That's a very high ...
这是一个非常高的...
I mean, pharma companies would pay millions of dollars to get their new drug a designation like that.
我的意思是，制药公司会花费数百万美元来让他们的新药获得这样的称号。
And what it means is ...
它的意思是...
early research is saying it shows a high potential for treating disorders that don't have very good treatments.
早期研究表明，它显示出治疗尚无很好治疗方法的疾病的巨大潜力。
And we're probably, again, a few years away from both MDMA, and probably a year or two after that, psilocybin being treated for PTSD and depression respectively.
而且，我们可能还需要几年时间才能使用 MDMA，并且可能在一两年后，裸盖菇素将分别用于治疗 PTSD 和抑郁症。
We have to wait for the phase 3 studies.
我们必须等待第三阶段研究。
But if the results hold up, even if the effect size is halved of what we're seeing now, it's still going to be a lot larger than what you're seeing with the traditional medications.
但如果结果成立，即使效果大小是我们现在看到的一半，它仍然会比传统药物看到的要大得多。
And so it's going to be approved if the data hold up, and it probably will, from my judgment.
因此，如果数据成立的话，它就会获得批准，而且根据我的判断，它很可能会获得批准。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
I feel like what I'm doing is actually having a positive impact in the world, in a way.
我觉得我所做的事情在某种程度上实际上对世界产生了积极的影响。
And I feel lucky that I got interested in an area that happens to plug into a place in the world where there is that opportunity, where some great colleagues and friends are focused on areas where ...
我很幸运，我对一个恰好与世界上有机会的地方感兴趣的领域感兴趣，那里有一些优秀的同事和朋友专注于......
I wish they had the opportunity for their work to be disseminated.
我希望他们有机会传播他们的作品。
I mean, I was lucky to be interviewed on "60 Minutes" because of this work, and I was like, "Oh, my God, I know so many ...
我的意思是，因为这项工作，我很幸运能够接受“60 分钟”的采访，我当时想，“哦，天哪，我知道这么多......
" there's a bit of imposter syndrome.
“有一点冒名顶替综合症。
Like, oh, my God, I know so many scientists that deserve, more so than me, to have that level of exposure.
就像，哦，天哪，我认识很多科学家，他们比我更值得获得这种程度的接触。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
But if you happen to be in that place where ...
但如果你碰巧在那个地方...
you've got to do your best to make it work, to take advantage of that luck and that intersection of the world and to push it.
你必须尽最大努力让它发挥作用，利用运气和世界的交汇点并推动它。
And I've been lucky, but also did take a bit of a leap of faith early on.
我很幸运，但也很早就有了一些信念的飞跃。
I did have some advisors that told me, "You've got a really promising pedigree early on.
我确实有一些顾问告诉我，“你很早就拥有一个非常有前途的血统。
Are you sure you want to focus time on the psychedelic stuff?"
你确定要把时间集中在迷幻的东西上吗？”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
You've embraced risk.
你已经接受了风险。
I think the world's changed since, in 2020 certainly.
我认为自 2020 年以来世界确实发生了变化。
But channels like social media, podcasts and things of that sort, your exposure is because people are interested in these topics.
但是像社交媒体、播客之类的渠道，你的曝光是因为人们对这些话题感兴趣。
And that's why people like myself are interested in talking to you.
这就是为什么像我这样的人有兴趣与你交谈。
I mean at Stanford there are now a few labs starting to explore psychedelics more at the mechanistic level, so in animal models, excellent labs.
我的意思是，在斯坦福大学，现在有一些实验室开始在机械层面上更多地探索迷幻药，因此在动物模型中，这是优秀的实验室。
But also I can imagine because of the pioneering work that you've done at Hopkins, it'll start to become more common.
但我也可以想象，由于您在霍普金斯大学所做的开创性工作，它会开始变得更加普遍。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm certain that people are going to have questions about how to get in contact with you and learn more.
我确信人们会对如何与您联系并了解更多信息有疑问。
If people have trauma, PTSD, depression, it's likely that they're going to start seeking ways in which they can potentially participate in clinical trials.
如果人们患有创伤、创伤后应激障碍、抑郁症，他们很可能会开始寻找可能参与临床试验的方法。
You're very active on Twitter; active, I should say.
You're very active on Twitter;我应该说，很活跃。
You've got other obligations.
You've got other obligations.
But where you are active on social media, you're active on Twitter, its @drug_researcher.
但只要你活跃在社交媒体上，你就会活跃在 Twitter 上，即@drug_researcher。
Correct?
正确的？
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
Drug_researcher, that's how to find me.
Drug_researcher, that's how to find me.
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Great account by the way.
Great account by the way.
Matthew and I have recently got into a dialogue there about some of the deeper effects of psychedelics in the literature versus how they're being discussed in the general public.
马修和我最近在那里进行了一场对话，讨论迷幻药在文献中的一些更深层次的影响以及它们在公众中的讨论方式。
And I follow his account and it's a really wonderful account for, whether or not you have a science background or not.
我关注他的叙述，无论你是否有科学背景，这都是一个非常精彩的叙述。
If people are ...
如果人们是...
And I'm going to try and persuade you to be more active on Instagram, but I don't know if I'll succeed in that.
我将尝试说服您在 Instagram 上更加活跃，但我不知道是否会成功。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
I'll try to get my Instagram game going on.
I'll try to get my Instagram game going on.
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You're a busy guy.
你是个忙碌的人。
I get it.
我得到它。
I'm running a lab too.
我也经营一个实验室。
I get it.
我得到它。
You're busy.
你很忙。
But drug_researcher there, as well.
But drug_researcher there, as well.
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
Same handle.
相同的手柄。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Same handle.
相同的手柄。
Your lab at Hopkins is pretty straightforward to find through a Google search of your name, Matthew Johnson, Johns Hopkins University.
您在霍普金斯大学的实验室很容易通过谷歌搜索您的名字找到，马修约翰逊，约翰霍普金斯大学。
Are there portals for people to explore clinical trials, participation in clinical trials of various kinds?
是否有门户网站供人们探索临床试验、参与各种临床试验？
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
And so in our group, you go to hopkinspsychedelic.org, that's the website and if you can't remember that, just Johns Hopkins psychedelic.
因此，在我们小组中，您可以访问 hopkinspsychedelic.org，这是该网站，如果您不记得该网站，则只需访问 Johns Hopkins psychedelic。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, we will provide a link.
是的，我们将提供一个链接。
We will provide a link.
我们将提供一个链接。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
And you're going to find us.
And you're going to find us.
It'll be the first thing that pops up.
It'll be the first thing that pops up.
And we have, trust me, if we have a study on something, it's going to be on that website.
相信我，如果我们对某件事进行研究，它就会出现在该网站上。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That means, he's being very polite.
That means, he's being very polite.
I will be a little bit more aggressive and say, don't email him directly.
我会更咄咄逼人地说，不要直接给他发电子邮件。
He won't see that email, wait until there's a posting for a study, and then sign up through the correct portal.
他不会看到该电子邮件，直到有研究发布，然后通过正确的门户进行注册。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
Right.
对。
And I try to get back to those emails.
And I try to get back to those emails.
But frankly, it's because, I'm lucky the area has taken off so much, but there are many days where I simply get so many requests-
但坦率地说，这是因为，我很幸运该地区已经起飞了这么多，但有很多天我只是收到这么多请求 -
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You have to do your research.
你必须做你的研究。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
...
...
that I can't get through my day if I answer all the ...
如果我回答所有问题我就无法度过这一天...
Trust me, and something that a lot of folks don't get, and being in academia like we are, it's easy to forget how people understandably don't realize this: this is experimental research.
相信我，很多人都没有意识到这一点，并且像我们一样在学术界，很容易忘记人们如何理解这一点：这是实验研究。
It's FDA-approved as an experiment.
It's FDA-approved as an experiment.
So we're working towards formal FDA approval for straight-up clinical use.
因此，我们正在努力争取 FDA 正式批准直接临床使用。
But right now someone can't bring me a case of some idiosyncratic thing and say, "I'm suffering from this complex constellation ...
但现在有人不能给我带来一些特殊的事情并说：“我正遭受着这个复杂的星座......
"
”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You're not a clinician.
你不是临床医生。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
...
...
and depression and, yeah, I'm not a clinician.
and depression and, yeah, I'm not a clinician.
And even if I was, I wouldn't be able to treat them with psilocybin or to send them anywhere that was legal to take it.
即使我是，我也无法用裸盖菇素治疗他们，也无法将他们送到任何可以合法服用的地方。
If we're going to be treating you, it has to be, or anyone else in the United States, or most other countries for that matter, it's going to have to be under the guise of a very specific protocol.
如果我们要治疗你，就必须如此，或者美国的任何其他人，或大多数其他国家，就必须以非常具体的协议为幌子。
This number of milligrams to treat PTSD, to treat major depressive disorder, to treat treatment-resistant tobacco use disorder, so nicotine addiction.
这个毫克数可以治疗创伤后应激障碍（PTSD），治疗重度抑郁症，治疗难治性烟草使用障碍，以及尼古丁成瘾。
Very specific studies.
非常具体的研究。
This is not one-off treatment.
这不是一次性治疗。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
And folks say like, "Oh, I can pay to go out to Baltimore.
人们会说，“哦，我可以付钱去巴尔的摩。
Oh, my son has this complex," and they're tragic cases.
哦，我儿子就有这种情结，”而且这些都是悲惨的案例。
If you're interested in a study, go to our website.
如果您对研究感兴趣，请访问我们的网站。
If it's not on their website, we don't have a study on it.
如果他们的网站上没有，我们就没有对其进行研究。
There are going to be forthcoming studies.
即将进行研究。
So I'm going to be starting studies on opioid addiction and PTSD, and an LSD study for chronic pain.
因此，我将开始研究阿片类药物成瘾和创伤后应激障碍（PTSD），以及针对慢性疼痛的迷幻药研究。
The day that those are open for recruitment, they're going to be up on our website.
当这些人开放招聘的那天，他们就会出现在我们的网站上。
That's where you look to see everything.
在那里你可以看到一切。
And in fact, I just recently, a couple days ago, put up a couple surveys, so it's also where we post links to our survey study.
事实上，我最近，几天前，做了几项调查，所以这也是我们发布调查研究链接的地方。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
If you've had psychedelics, and you've taken them for therapeutic intent for PTSD or for depression or anxiety, you can find a link.
如果您服用过迷幻药，并且服用它们是为了治疗创伤后应激障碍 (PTSD)、抑郁症或焦虑症，您可以找到一个链接。
And also if you've done breathwork for those reasons, we have a link for a study of that type up there now which is a holotropic style, very psychedelic type of breathing technique that can lead to some of these similar experiences.
而且，如果您出于这些原因进行了呼吸练习，我们现在有一个此类研究的链接，这是一种全息式、非常迷幻的呼吸技术，可以导致一些类似的体验。
So it's up there.
所以它就在那里。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
More broadly, outside of our group, because there's a growing number of groups in the U.S. doing this, and in Europe doing this research.
更广泛地说，在我们的团队之外，因为美国有越来越多的团体在做这件事，在欧洲也有越来越多的团体在做这项研究。
But you can gov, and if you look in for the main search term of psilocybin or MDMA or psychedelic, plug in those terms, you can get a list of the growing number.
但你可以管理，如果你查找裸盖菇素、MDMA 或致幻剂的主要搜索词，插入这些词，你就可以获得不断增长的数字的列表。
I mean, I think there's over 40, maybe, it's been a while, there might be over 50 now, I don't know.
我的意思是，我认为有超过 40 个，也许，已经有一段时间了，现在可能超过 50 个，我不知道。
But studies with just psilocybin going on right now on clinicaltrials.gov.
但现在在 ClinicalTrials.gov 上正在进行仅使用裸盖菇素的研究。
So check out clinicaltrials.gov to see what's going on.
因此，请查看 ClinicalTrials.gov 以了解发生了什么。
If you're going to do anything legal, it's going to be in the context of a very specific study.
如果你要做任何合法的事情，那将是在一项非常具体的研究的背景下进行的。
It's not going to be one-off treatment.
这不会是一次性治疗。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
And I should say just, and not just legal, but also supported in the right framework that you described, of having a team, et cetera.
我应该说，不仅仅是合法的，而且还支持您所描述的正确框架，例如拥有一个团队等等。
Obviously people will do what they will do.
显然人们会做他们会做的事情。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
I will say if people ...
我会说如果人们...
I never encourage people to take drugs of any ...
我从不鼓励人们服用任何药物...
I don't encourage caffeine use.
我不鼓励使用咖啡因。
Every drug has its risk.
每种药物都有其风险。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I encourage my own caffeine use, but nobody else's.
我鼓励自己摄入咖啡因，但不鼓励其他人。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
I'm drinking up right now.
我现在正在喝酒。
This is great.
这太棒了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, this is very strong maté, it's what we're drinking.
是的，这是非常烈的马黛茶，这就是我们喝的。
It has not led to an alteration in my perception of self to the extent that we talked about earlier.
它并没有导致我对自我认知的改变达到我们之前讨论的程度。
However, this conversation was a good example of how we can enter a perceptual bubble.
然而，这次谈话是我们如何进入感知泡沫的一个很好的例子。
I learned so much about psychedelics and the future of this for sake of mental health and other aspects of health.
为了心理健康和健康的其他方面，我了解了很多关于迷幻药及其未来的知识。
Matt, thank you so much for your time, for your knowledge.
马特，非常感谢您抽出时间并了解您的知识。
And I think you put it best earlier, for holding the candle in a very dark time.
我认为你早点说得最好，因为在非常黑暗的时刻举起了蜡烛。
And then now there's light.
现在有光了。
Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊：
Thank you.
谢谢你。
Well, thanks for helping to spread that light, and I really appreciate what you've been doing.
好吧，感谢您帮助传播这种光芒，我真的很感激您所做的事情。
This is a great, great medium that you have going on, so thank you for doing it.
这是一个非常非常好的媒介，所以感谢您所做的一切。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, it's my pleasure.
嗯，这是我的荣幸。
Thank you.
谢谢。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thank you for joining me for my conversation with Dr. Matthew Johnson.
感谢您参加我与马修·约翰逊博士的对话。
If you're enjoying this podcast and learning from it, please subscribe to our YouTube channel.
如果您喜欢这个播客并从中学习，请订阅我们的 YouTube 频道。
In addition, you can leave comments and suggestions for future podcast topics and guests in the comment section on YouTube.
此外，您还可以在 YouTube 的评论部分留下对未来播客主题和嘉宾的评论和建议。
As well, please consider subscribing on Apple and on Spotify, and on Apple you can leave us up to a five-star review and a comment.
另外，请考虑在 Apple 和 Spotify 上订阅，在 Apple 上您可以给我们留下五星级的评论和评论。
Please also check out the sponsors that we mentioned at the beginning of today's episode.
另请查看我们在今天节目开头提到的赞助商。
That's a terrific way to support our podcast.
这是支持我们播客的好方法。
And last but not least, thank you for your interest in science.
最后但并非最不重要的一点是，感谢您对科学的兴趣。