Dr. Marc Brackett: How to Increase Your Emotional Intelligence
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.
欢迎来到休伯曼实验室播客，我们在这里讨论科学和基于科学的日常生活工具。
I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.
我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。
My guest today is Dr. Marc Brackett.
今天我的客人是马克·布拉克特博士。
Dr. Marc Brackett is a professor of psychology at Yale University and the director of the Yale Center for Emotional Intelligence.
马克·布拉克特博士是耶鲁大学心理学教授，也是耶鲁大学情商中心主任。
He is one of the world's foremost experts on emotions, meaning what emotions are and how they regulate our relationship to ourself and others.
他是世界上最重要的情绪专家之一，情绪是什么以及它们如何调节我们与自己和他人的关系。
Today's discussion gets heavily into how we should think about our emotions and the emotional expressions of others, and when and how we should regulate those emotions.
今天的讨论主要涉及我们应该如何思考我们的情绪和他人的情绪表达，以及我们应该何时以及如何调节这些情绪。
This is a very important aspect of our life because, as we all know, emotions are present with us from the moment we are born until the moment we die.
这是我们生活中非常重要的一个方面，因为众所周知，从我们出生的那一刻到我们死亡的那一刻，情绪都伴随着我们。
So much like having a body, we need to learn how to work with our emotions in order to have the best quality of life.
就像拥有身体一样，我们需要学习如何处理我们的情绪，以获得最好的生活质量。
We all know that we are supposed to pay attention to our emotions, but at the same time, we are often told that we shouldn't take all of our emotions seriously, nor should we react to all of our emotions with behaviors.
我们都知道我们应该关注我们的情绪，但同时，我们经常被告知我们不应该认真对待我们所有的情绪，也不应该用行为来应对我们所有的情绪。
And indeed, that is true.
确实如此。
What's been lacking, however, and what Dr. Marc Brackett finally delivers to us, is a roadmap to think about our emotions in a very structured way, and thereby to engage with our emotions, sometimes shift our emotions, and certainly to understand the emotional expressions of others in ways that best serve our quality of life.
然而，马克·布拉克特博士最终向我们传达的，是一个以非常结构化的方式思考我们的情绪的路线图，从而与我们的情绪互动，有时改变我们的情绪，当然也以最有利于我们生活质量的方式理解他人的情绪表达。
So today's discussion centers very heavily on scientific data that plays out in the real world that we can all use.
因此，今天的讨论主要集中在现实世界中我们都可以使用的科学数据。
We talk about conflict resolution, we talk about how to think about and work with emotions.
我们谈论解决冲突，我们谈论如何思考和处理情绪。
We talk about bullying, both in children and in adults, how to deal with that sort of thing effectively.
我们讨论针对儿童和成人的欺凌行为，以及如何有效地处理此类事情。
And we talk about emotional intelligence, which it turns out can be increased at any stage of life.
我们谈论情商，事实证明情商可以在人生的任何阶段提高。
So by the end of today's discussion, you'll be armed with a tremendous amount of new knowledge and many new tools, many new protocols that you can immediately apply in your life in order to improve your relationship to yourself and to others.
因此，在今天的讨论结束时，您将掌握大量新知识、许多新工具、许多新协议，您可以立即将它们应用到生活中，以改善您与自己和他人的关系。
Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.
在开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。
It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public.
然而，我的愿望和努力的一部分是向公众提供有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本消费者信息。
In keeping with that theme, I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast.
为了与这个主题保持一致，我要感谢今天播客的赞助商。
Our first sponsor is BetterHelp.
我们的第一个赞助商是 BetterHelp。
BetterHelp offers professional therapy with a licensed therapist carried out entirely online.
BetterHelp 提供由持证治疗师完全在线进行的专业治疗。
I've been doing weekly therapy for well over 30 years.
三十多年来我每周进行一次治疗。
I consider doing regular therapy just as important as getting regular exercise.
我认为定期治疗与定期锻炼一样重要。
Now, there are essentially three things that great therapy provides.
现在，伟大的治疗基本上可以提供三件事。
First of all, it provides good rapport with somebody that you can trust and talk to about the issues that are most critical to you.
首先，它与您可以信任的人建立了良好的融洽关系，并可以与您谈论对您来说最重要的问题。
Second of all, it can provide support in the form of emotional support or directed guidance.
其次，它可以以情感支持或定向指导的形式提供支持。
And third, expert therapy should provide insights, insights that are useful in allowing you not just to feel better in your emotional life and your relationship life, but of course, to be better.
第三，专家治疗应该提供洞察力，这些洞察力不仅可以让你在情感生活和人际关系生活中感觉更好，而且当然可以让你变得更好。
To be better in terms of the relationship to yourself, your professional life, and to others, and of course, to things like your career goals.
改善与自己、职业生活、他人的关系，当然还有职业目标等方面的关系。
With BetterHelp, they make it very easy for you to find an expert therapist with whom you have these critical components of therapy.
通过 BetterHelp，您可以轻松找到专业治疗师，与您一起进行这些关键的治疗。
Also, because BetterHelp allows for therapy to be done entirely online, it's very time efficient and easy to fit into your busy schedule with no commuting to a therapist's office or looking for parking or sitting in a waiting room.
此外，由于 BetterHelp 允许治疗完全在线完成，因此非常省时，并且可以轻松适应您繁忙的日程，而无需通勤到治疗师办公室或寻找停车位或坐在候诊室。
If you'd like to try BetterHelp, go to betterhelp.com/huberman to get 10% off your first month.
如果您想尝试 BetterHelp，请访问 betterhelp.com/huberman，第一个月可享受 10% 的折扣。
Again, that's betterhelp.com/huberman.
再说一次，这是 betterhelp.com/huberman。
Today's episode is also brought to us by Eight Sleep.
今天的节目也是八觉给我们带来的。
Eight Sleep makes smart mattress covers with cooling, heating, and sleep tracking capacity.
August Sleep 生产具有冷却、加热和睡眠跟踪功能的智能床垫套。
Now, I've spoken many times before on this podcast about the critical need for us to get adequate amounts of quality sleep each night.
现在，我之前已经在这个播客中多次谈到我们每晚获得充足的优质睡眠的迫切需要。
One of the best ways to ensure a great night's sleep is to control the temperature of your sleeping environment.
确保一夜好眠的最佳方法之一是控制睡眠环境的温度。
And that's because in order to fall and stay deeply asleep, your body temperature actually has to drop by about one to three degrees.
这是因为为了入睡并保持深度睡眠，您的体温实际上必须下降约一到三度。
And in order to wake up feeling refreshed and energized, your body temperature actually has to increase by about one to three degrees.
为了醒来时感觉神清气爽、精力充沛，您的体温实际上必须升高约一到三度。
Eight Sleep makes it incredibly easy to control the temperature of your sleeping environment by allowing you to program the temperature of your mattress cover at the beginning, middle, and end of the night.
八睡眠让您可以非常轻松地控制睡眠环境的温度，您可以在晚上的开始、中间和结束时对床垫套的温度进行编程。
I've been sleeping on an Eight Sleep mattress cover for well over three years now, and it has completely transformed my sleep for the better.
我已经睡在八睡眠床垫罩上三年多了，它彻底改变了我的睡眠质量。
Eight Sleep recently launched their newest generation pod cover, the Pod 4 Ultra.
八睡眠最近推出了他们最新一代的 Pod 4 Ultra。
The Pod 4 Ultra has improved cooling and heating capacity, higher fidelity sleep tracking technology, and it also has snoring detection that remarkably will automatically lift your head a few degrees to improve your airflow and stop your snoring.
Pod 4 Ultra 具有改进的冷却和加热能力、更高保真度的睡眠跟踪技术，并且还具有打鼾检测功能，可以自动将您的头部抬起几度，以改善气流并停止打鼾。
If you'd like to try an Eight Sleep mattress cover, you can go to eightsleep.com/huberman to save $350 off their Pod 4 Ultra.
如果您想尝试八睡眠床垫套，您可以访问八睡眠.com/huberman，在 Pod 4 Ultra 上可节省 350 美元。
Eight Sleep currently ships to the USA, Canada, UK, select countries in the EU, and Australia.
八睡眠目前运往美国、加拿大、英国、欧盟部分国家和澳大利亚。
Again, that's eightsleep.com/huberman.
再说一遍，这是八睡眠.com/huberman。
I'm excited to share that I'll be speaking at a health summit called Eudemonia, taking place in West Palm Beach, Florida, this November 1st, 2024, through the 3rd of November 2024.
我很高兴与大家分享，我将于 2024 年 11 月 1 日至 2024 年 11 月 3 日在佛罗里达州西棕榈滩举行的名为 Eudemonia 的健康峰会上发表演讲。
Eudemonia is an in-person event that offers science-backed tools, live fitness classes, and a range of treatments and protocols to optimize your physical and your mental health.
Eudemonia 是一项现场活动，提供科学支持的工具、现场健身课程以及一系列治疗和方案，以优化您的身心健康。
I'll be giving a keynote talk with none other than Dr. Gabrielle Lyon on Saturday.
周六我将与 Gabrielle Lyon 博士一起发表主题演讲。
As some of you may know, she's a former guest on the Huberman Lab podcast and has a terrific podcast of her own.
你们中有些人可能知道，她是 Huberman Lab 播客的前嘉宾，并且拥有自己的精彩播客。
That's going to be on November 2nd, and we will discuss all things neuroscience and neuroplasticity.
11 月 2 日，我们将讨论神经科学和神经可塑性的所有内容。
We'll talk about some of the benefits and protocols related to cognition and mood, and much more.
我们将讨论一些与认知和情绪相关的好处和协议等等。
Also presenting at Eudemonia are other excellent scientists and clinicians who've appeared on the Huberman Lab podcast, including Dr. Sarah Gottfried, Dr. Zachary Knight, and Dr. Robin Carhart-Harris, along with nearly 70 other experts.
在 Eudemonia 上发表演讲的还有曾出现在 Huberman Lab 播客上的其他优秀科学家和临床医生，包括 Sarah Gottfried 博士、Zachary Knight 博士和 Robin Carhart-Harris 博士，以及近 70 名其他专家。
To see the full lineup of speakers and topics and to register, visit eudemonia.net, spelled E-U-D-E-M-O-N-I-A .net.
要查看完整的演讲者和主题阵容并进行注册，请访问 eudemonia.net（拼写为 E-U-D-E-M-O-N-I-A .net）。
It's sure to be a terrific gathering, and I hope to see you there.
这肯定会是一次很棒的聚会，我希望在那里见到你。
And now for my discussion with Dr. Marc Brackett Dr. Marc Brackett, welcome.
现在我与马克·布拉克特博士进行讨论，欢迎马克·布拉克特博士。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Thank you.
谢谢你。
Great to be here.
很高兴来到这里。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm excited to talk to you today about many things related to emotions.
我很高兴今天能与大家谈论许多与情绪有关的事情。
We hear the word emotions, and we have all sorts of ideas about what they are, what they aren't.
我们听到“情绪”这个词，并且对于它们是什么、不是什么有各种各样的想法。
We also hear about emotional intelligence quite a lot these days, and I have a feeling that the way it's discussed is often not the way it really is.
这些天我们也经常听到有关情商的话题，但我有一种感觉，人们讨论它的方式往往与实际情况不同。
So to just kick things off, could you clarify for me, for everyone, what is emotional intelligence?
首先，您能为我、为大家澄清一下什么是情商吗？
What does it pertain to?
它与什么有关？
And then maybe we can use that as a way to drill into the deeper question of what are emotions.
然后也许我们可以用它来深入探讨什么是情绪这一更深层次的问题。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Sure.
当然。
I think, at the simplest level, it's how we reason with and about our emotions and feelings.
我认为，从最简单的层面来说，这就是我们如何推理和思考我们的情绪和感受。
That's the simple definition.
这就是简单的定义。
The way I talk about it is as a set of skills, and we use the acronym RULER to describe those skills.
我将其视为一组技能，我们使用缩写词“RULER”来描述这些技能。
The first is recognizing emotions.
首先是识别情绪。
So I'm trying to read your facial expression right now.
所以我现在正在尝试读懂你的面部表情。
Are you interested, or are you bored already?
你有兴趣吗，还是已经感到无聊了？
I'm trying to understand emotions, where they're coming from.
我试图理解情绪，它们从何而来。
Why am I feeling this way?
为什么我有这样的感觉？
What's the consequence of that feeling?
这种感觉的后果是什么？
The third is labeling emotions, so being precise with the words that we use to describe our feelings.
第三是给情绪贴上标签，所以要准确地使用我们用来描述我们的感受的词语。
The fourth is expressing emotions, knowing how and when to express emotions with different people across context and culture.
第四是表达情感，知道如何以及何时与不同背景和文化的不同人表达情感。
And then the big one is the final R, which is regulating emotions.
然后最重要的是最后一个R，它是调节情绪。
What are the strategies we use to help us deal with everyday emotions?
我们使用哪些策略来帮助我们处理日常情绪？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So if I were to take an emotional intelligence test, would it have me looking at pictures of facial expressions?
那么，如果我要参加情商测试，我会看面部表情的照片吗？
Would it have me reading paragraphs about emotional exchanges and gauging who felt what and why and how, that sort of thing?
它会让我阅读有关情感交流的段落，并衡量谁感受到了什么、为什么以及如何感受，诸如此类的事情吗？
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
If you were to take a test from 20 years ago, yes.
如果你参加20年前的考试，是的。
We try to be a little bit more innovative now in our measurement of the skills.
我们现在尝试在技能衡量方面更具创新性。
So for example, I just finished with a bunch of colleagues publishing a test of emotion perception, but it's not static images.
举例来说，我刚刚与一群同事发布了一项情绪感知测试，但它不是静态图像。
It's video clips that are around three to four seconds that show subtle emotions.
这是大约三到四秒的视频片段，表现出微妙的情感。
It's about vocal tone, it's about body language, and we're trying to get people to accurately label these emotions in faces, body, and voice.
这与声调、肢体语言有关，我们试图让人们通过面部、身体和声音准确地标记这些情绪。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
When I think about most uses of the words emotional intelligence, it seems to correlate, again, in a very non-scientific way, seems to correlate with one's ability to tolerate others' emotions and make sense of the emotions of others.
当我想到情商这个词的大多数用法时，它似乎再次以一种非常非科学的方式与一个人容忍他人情绪和理解他人情绪的能力相关。
For instance, I've heard it said before, not about me, that so and so has high emotional intelligence, because in the presence of their child or someone else's kid reacting in a certain way, they were able to see, ah, they just feel blank, and therefore, they are screaming.
例如，我以前听人说过，不是关于我的，某某人有很高的情商，因为当他们的孩子或别人的孩子以某种方式做出反应时，他们能够看到，啊，他们只是感到空白，因此，他们在尖叫。
As opposed to defaulting to a broad binning of what they were observing and saying, "Oh my goodness, that kid is a brat," for instance.
与默认对他们所观察到的内容进行广泛分类相反，例如，“哦，我的天哪，那个孩子是个孩子”。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You're describing emotional intelligence as a self-perception as well.
您也将情商描述为一种自我认知。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And so is our task therefore to do the equivalent of what, in my little anecdote, this other person was doing to be able to parse one's own emotions in a fine enough way to understand the experience in a third-person way that one can regulate their behavior, what they say, how they act.
因此，我们的任务就是做相当于我的小轶事中的另一个人正在做的事情，以便能够以足够精细的方式解析自己的情绪，以第三人称的方式理解体验，从而可以调节他们的行为，他们所说的话，他们如何行动。
How much is recognition of others' emotions and understanding of those, as opposed to one's recognition and understanding of their own emotions factoring into this thing that we call emotional intelligence?
与一个人对自己情绪的识别和理解相比，对他人情绪的识别和理解在多大程度上影响了我们所说的情商？
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
So the whole set of skills are intra and interpersonal.
因此，整套技能都是内部技能和人际技能。
That's really important.
这真的很重要。
It's about self and others, always.
这始终是关于自我和他人的。
For example, right now, we are co-regulating each other's emotions.
比如现在，我们正在共同调节彼此的情绪。
Our facial expressions, our vocal tones, we're influencing how we feel.
我们的面部表情，我们的语气，正在影响着我们的感受。
When you think about the recognition piece, we'll just start there.
当你想到表彰部分时，我们就从这里开始。
There's self-awareness.
有自我意识。
Like, "Marc, how are you feeling right now?" And I'm having mixed emotions.
就像，“马克，你现在感觉怎么样？”我的心情很复杂。
This is a great podcast.
这是一个很棒的播客。
I want to be articulate.
我想表达清楚。
I'm excited, but I'm a little overwhelmed because I got so much I want to share, but I don't know how much I'm going to share.
我很兴奋，但又有点不知所措，因为我有太多想要分享的东西，但我不知道要分享多少。
So there's all that awareness of my emotion.
所以我对自己的情感有全部的认识。
Sometimes I have language for it, sometimes I don't, like any of us.
有时我有语言来表达它，有时我没有，像我们任何人一样。
And that's why it starts off with just a general awareness.
这就是为什么它从一般意识开始。
Am I pleasant?
我令人愉快吗？
Am I unpleasant?
我不讨人喜欢吗？
Do I have a lot of energy, or do I feel depleted?
我是否精力充沛，还是感到疲惫不堪？
And we call that your core affect.
我们称之为你的核心情感。
And then I can start asking myself questions like, "Well, what are you doing right now, Marc?" "Well, I'm sitting across from Andrew being interviewed." "Oh, okay.
然后我可以开始问自己这样的问题：“马克，你现在在做什么？” “嗯，我坐在安德鲁对面接受采访。” “哦，好吧。
What comes up for you with that?" And then I try to label that feeling.
你会想到什么？”然后我尝试给这种感觉贴上标签。
So that's the R, the U, and the L of emotional intelligence for the self.
这就是自我情商的 R、U 和 L。
And I'm doing the same thing for you.
我也在为你做同样的事情。
I'm looking at your facial expressions, your body language.
我在看你的面部表情，你的肢体语言。
I'm listening to you.
我在听你说话。
I'm trying to understand if I say something, do you shift?
我试图理解如果我说了什么，你会转移吗？
And I'm trying to put language to it.
我正在尝试用语言来表达它。
So it's self and other.
所以这是自我和他人。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So given that we're both scientists interested in emotions, you're the expert.
鉴于我们都是对情绪感兴趣的科学家，你就是专家。
I'm also just the student today.
今天我也只是个学生。
I think it's worth pointing out to people that there isn't one location in the brain that governs this complex process that you just described.
我认为值得向人们指出的是，大脑中没有一个位置来控制您刚才描述的这一复杂过程。
It's a network-wide phenomenon.
这是一个网络范围内的现象。
But you did mention the body.
但你确实提到了身体。
You mentioned feeling.
你提到了感觉。
How is one feeling, both in brain and body?
大脑和身体的一种感觉如何？
To what extent does somebody who has high emotional intelligence have more or less body awareness or somatic awareness as opposed to somebody who's, quote unquote, "in their head." Put differently, can somebody who's very much in their head, who has very poor body awareness, have high emotional intelligence?
情商高的人在多大程度上具有或多或少的身体意识或躯体意识，而不是那些“在头脑中”的人。换句话说，一个头脑很清醒、身体意识很差的人会有高情商吗？
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Well, I think another big deal about emotional intelligence is that we like to think of it as, or people think of it as this construct I don't think that's the best way to look at it.
嗯，我认为关于情商的另一个大问题是我们喜欢将其视为，或者人们将其视为这种结构，我认为这不是看待它的最佳方式。
I think it's much more interesting to look at it as a set of discrete skills that come together.
我认为将其视为一组组合在一起的离散技能会更有趣。
They're not that highly correlated, and so I really like to think of them as emotion skills, and that within the R, the U, the L, the E, and the R that I described, there are sub-skills.
它们的相关性并不那么高，所以我真的很喜欢将它们视为情感技能，并且在我描述的 R、U、L、E 和 R 中，还有子技能。
And so part of what you're talking about is the body awareness.
所以你所说的一部分是身体意识。
Some people are more cognitive.
有些人的认知能力更强。
They're just very language-oriented.
他们只是非常注重语言。
Some people, a lot of therapists, talking about somatosensory things, all good.
有些人，很多治疗师，谈论体感的事情，都很好。
I think at the end, though, this is why I teach this stuff, is that we have to know how we feel.
不过，我认为最后，这就是我教这些东西的原因，就是我们必须知道我们的感受。
We got to know what we want to do with those feelings, and we have to know how the people we live with and love and work with and teach, how they feel, too.
我们必须知道我们想如何处理这些感受，我们还必须知道与我们一起生活、所爱、一起工作和教导的人如何，他们的感受也如何。
And so we need language in the end.
所以我们最终需要语言。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Some years ago, I went to this course.
几年前，我参加了这门课程。
It broadly could be described as personal development.
它广义上可以被描述为个人发展。
It was interesting.
这很有趣。
It was grounded in science and psychology, and each day would start with going around the circle, as typically is done at these things, and you'd have to say how you feel.
它以科学和心理学为基础，每天都会从绕圈开始，就像通常在这些事情上所做的那样，你必须说出你的感受。
But you couldn't use a valuation.
但你不能使用估值。
You couldn't say good or bad or so-so.
你不能说好或坏或马马虎虎。
And I found it very difficult.
我发现这非常困难。
I found it difficult for a number of reasons.
由于多种原因，我发现这很困难。
First of all, I don't think I was ever trained to use specific language for my feelings.
首先，我认为我从未接受过使用特定语言来表达自己感受的训练。
In fact, I don't think I was ever trained to understand what feelings were.
事实上，我认为我从未接受过理解什么是感受的训练。
In fact, I know neuroscientists and psychologists are still trying to figure out what feelings and emotions really are.
事实上，我知道神经科学家和心理学家仍在试图弄清楚感受和情绪到底是什么。
So, a couple of questions.
那么，有几个问题。
When it comes to using language to describe our emotions, how important do you feel it is to have a broad buffet of options?
当谈到使用语言来描述我们的情感时，您认为拥有广泛的选择有多重要？
A previous guest on this podcast, Lisa Feldman Barrett, and I talked about this a bit, and she mentioned that in some cultures, there's very specific language for specific emotions.
这个播客的前一位嘉宾丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特（Lisa Feldman Barrett）和我谈到了这一点，她提到在某些文化中，特定的情感有非常特定的语言。
In fact, there's even a word to describe the feeling of sadness one has in a particular culture after getting a really bad haircut.
事实上，甚至有一个词来形容在特定文化中一个人剪了一个非常糟糕的发型后的悲伤感觉。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Which is incredible when one thinks about it.
仔细想想，这真是令人难以置信。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
We all know what that feels like.
我们都知道那是什么感觉。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
We know what it feels like, right.
我们知道那是什么感觉，对吧。
But there isn't, to my knowledge-
但据我所知不存在——
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
We don't have the word
我们没有这个词
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
a word for that in the English language.
英语中的一个词。
I'm sure there's a curse word for it in the English language.
我确信英语中有一个诅咒词。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But not necessarily for that specific feeling, or unique to that specific feeling.
但不一定是为了那种特定的感觉，或者是那种特定的感觉所独有的。
So what is the relationship between language labels and emotion?
那么语言标签和情感之间有什么关系呢？
And I ask that as a way to kind of wedge into the RULER approach, right?
我问这是一种融入 RULER 方法的方式，对吧？
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because, as you pointed out, that one recognizes, understands labels, but the label is central, literally, to the RULER approach.
因为，正如您所指出的，人们认识、理解标签，但标签实际上是 RULER 方法的核心。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
It is.
是的。
Yeah, so I'm very similar to Lisa in terms of there are emotion concepts or categories.
是的，所以我在情感概念或类别方面与丽莎非常相似。
Well, let's use the anger category.
好吧，让我们使用愤怒类别。
If you only have one word for anger, that means all you know is there's one form of anger.
如果你只有一个词来表达愤怒，那就意味着你只知道愤怒只有一种形式。
But if you start teaching people, well, there are other words that we could use, like peeved, irritated, angry, enraged, livid.
但如果你开始教导人们，那么我们可以使用其他词语，比如恼怒、恼怒、愤怒、激怒、愤怒。
And then you have rich conversations, which is what I do in schools with kids and teachers themselves.
然后你们会进行丰富的对话，这就是我在学校与孩子和老师自己所做的事情。
When you're feeling peeved, what are the things that make you feel peeved versus the things that make you feel enraged?
当你感到生气时，哪些事情会让你感到生气，哪些事情会让你感到愤怒？
What does it feel like in your body when you're feeling that way?
当你有这种感觉时，你的身体有什么感觉？
Granted that everybody feels things differently in their bodies.
当然，每个人对自己身体的感觉都不同。
That really doesn't matter.
这真的没关系。
What matters is that we have a common language and a common understanding of what these emotions are, because otherwise we can't communicate.
重要的是我们对这些情绪有共同的语言和共同的理解，否则我们无法沟通。
This is a big deal for me in terms of having a common language within a community to talk about emotion.
这对我来说是一件大事，因为在社区内拥有共同的语言来谈论情感。
Because right now, we're in a crisis of anxiety.
因为现在，我们正处于焦虑危机之中。
I'm not 100% bought into that.
我并没有100%相信这一点。
I think that people use the word anxiety improperly.
我认为人们错误地使用了焦虑这个词。
Anxiety is about uncertainty about the future, if we're going to define it.
如果我们要定义未来的话，焦虑就是对未来的不确定性。
It's different than stress.
这与压力不同。
There's different forms of stress, as you know.
如您所知，压力有不同形式。
But the distress is usually when you have too many demands and not enough resources, which is different than when you're overwhelmed, which is my emotion of the year.
但苦恼通常是当你有太多的要求而没有足够的资源时，这与你不知所措时不同，这是我今年的情感。
Which is, I'm just saturated.
也就是说，我已经饱和了。
I can't even figure out what's going on anymore.
我什至无法弄清楚发生了什么事。
Which is also different from fear.
这也不同于恐惧。
And we call that emotion differentiation or granularity, people call it.
人们称之为情绪区分或粒度。
They're slightly different.
它们略有不同。
The differentiation is between emotions, and the granularity might be within the emotion.
区分是在情绪之间，而粒度可能是在情绪内部。
But from my work, just to go on about this for a moment, the best example I have is I do a lot of corporate training.
但从我的工作来看，我想继续讨论一下，最好的例子就是我做了很多企业培训。
And so I'm in a room filled with lawyers or executives, and I ask them how they're feeling.
因此，我在一个充满律师或高管的房间里，我询问他们的感受如何。
Nobody's really sure how they're feeling, like you were saying.
正如你所说，没有人真正确定自己的感受。
And then I'll do these little quizzes with them.
然后我会和他们一起做这些小测验。
"Tell me the difference.
“告诉我有什么不同。
You got three minutes in a group.
你们有三分钟的小组时间。
Anxiety, stress, pressure, fear, overwhelmed." And they come back and the number one response is, "They're all the same." And I'm like, "Really?
焦虑、压力、压力、恐惧、不知所措。”当他们回来时，第一反应是：“他们都是一样的。”我想，“真的吗？
Take another few minutes.
再花几分钟。
Just try to define them." They can't even define them.
只是尝试定义它们。”他们甚至无法定义它们。
They say things like, "One is internal, one is external.
他们这样说：“一种是内在的，一种是外在的。
One is higher energy and lower energy." I'm like, "I get that, but what do these concepts mean to you?
一是较高能量和较低能量。”我想，“我明白了，但是这些概念对你来说意味着什么？
What do they mean to you?" Anyhow, finally, we get to the definitions.
它们对你来说意味着什么？”无论如何，最后我们得到了定义。
And then I say, "Who cares?
然后我说：“谁在乎呢？
Why am I asking you to understand these differences?
我为什么要求你理解这些差异？
Go back to your groups and talk about it." And then after, this is like a 45-minute...
回到你们的小组去讨论吧。”然后，这就像 45 分钟......
I thought this was going to be a two-minute activity.
我以为这将是一个两分钟的活动。
It turns into a 45-minute to an hour exercise because they finally realize, "Oh, yeah.
这变成了 45 分钟到一个小时的练习，因为他们终于意识到，“哦，是的。
So if I'm anxious because I'm worrying about the future, maybe the breathing exercise is not going to be as helpful Because maybe I need a cognitive strategy to say, "Marc, stop worrying about the stock market.
因此，如果我因为担心未来而感到焦虑，也许呼吸练习不会那么有帮助，因为也许我需要一种认知策略来说：“马克，别再担心股市了。
Marc, stop worrying about the university closed down because of the pandemic.
马克，别再担心大学因为大流行而关闭了。
You've got no control over the university's decisions." And so helping people make connections between the feeling and the reason for the feeling, from my perspective, has been very helpful to help them learn how to regulate the emotion.
你无法控制大学的决定。”因此，在我看来，帮助人们在感觉和产生这种感觉的原因之间建立联系，对于帮助他们学习如何调节情绪非常有帮助。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So connecting the feeling and the reason for the feeling-
因此，将感觉与产生这种感觉的原因联系起来——
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Correct
正确
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
as opposed to just labeling the feeling.
而不仅仅是给感觉贴上标签。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
You need to know why.
你需要知道为什么。
It's the why that you really have to deal with.
这就是你真正必须处理的原因。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
How do you feel about emojis?
您对表情符号感觉如何？
From everything you're saying, they seem more than benign to me.
从你所说的一切来看，他们对我来说似乎非常友善。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Same.
一样。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I could imagine that the emojification of culture, as I refer to it, I don't think that's a real word.
我可以想象，正如我所提到的，文化的表情符号化，我不认为这是一个真正的词。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
It's all right.
没关系。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
All right.
好吧。
It is now.
就是现在。
I'm going to set up a Wikipedia page tomorrow.
明天我要建立一个维基百科页面。
Emojification is a serious problem because it's what we call in science too much lumping.
表情符号化是一个严重的问题，因为这就是我们在科学中所说的过度集中。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In science, you have lumpers and splitters.
在科学中，有集总器和分离器。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
And both can have fabulous careers, but if you lump too much or split too much, you create more confusion, and you often create problems.
两者都可以拥有辉煌的职业生涯，但如果你集中太多或分裂太多，就会造成更多混乱，并且经常会产生问题。
And I just see emojis as lumping this incredible set of different continuums within us that we call emotions-
我只是认为表情符号将我们体内这组令人难以置信的不同连续体集中在一起，我们称之为情感——
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Exactly
正是如此
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
into literally a small icon.
变成一个小图标。
And I can imagine this would lead to all sorts of problems, not just in communication, but in understanding our own emotions.
我可以想象这会导致各种各样的问题，不仅在沟通方面，而且在理解我们自己的情绪方面。
Put differently, do you think that the use of emojis has degraded our level of emotional intelligence and processing?
换句话说，您认为表情符号的使用是否降低了我们的情商和处理水平？
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
I haven't done the research, but from my perspective, it's not helpful because the goal is to get granular.
我还没有做过研究，但从我的角度来看，这没有帮助，因为目标是变得更细化。
Think about the difference, and I'm not going to quiz you right now, but anger and disappointment.
想想其中的区别，我现在不会考验你，而是愤怒和失望。
Do you know that 95% of the people that I ask to define those two things cannot do it?
你知道我要求定义这两件事的人中有 95% 都做不到吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Right off the cuff, I'll just say I'm familiar with both of those feelings.
我马上就说我很熟悉这两种感觉。
I know they're different.
我知道他们是不同的。
I can sense their difference.
我能感觉到他们的不同。
But the disappointment piece, yeah, could be directed outward or inward.
但令人失望的部分，是的，可以是向外的，也可以是向内的。
I'd have to work systematically through until I found a violation of one or the other.
我必须系统地进行工作，直到发现其中一项违规行为。
So where an example applied to one and not the other, and it would take me a few minutes.
因此，如果一个例子适用于其中一个而不适用于另一个，我会花费几分钟的时间。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Longer than I want this audience to have to wait.
比我希望观众等待的时间还要长。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
There you go.
就这样吧。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
So we should just-
所以我们应该——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So I got an F.
所以我得了F。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
But you have a growth mindset, so you're okay.
但你有成长心态，所以没问题。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There you go.
就这样吧。
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
So disappointment, unmet expectations.
所以失望，没有达到期望。
Everything was legit, it just didn't work out.
一切都是合法的，只是没有成功。
Anger, perceived injustice.
愤怒，感受到不公正。
And that's a really important distinction because if you're a parent or someone at work and someone is yelling and screaming, firstly, we grossly make mistakes in terms of labeling emotion from behavior.
这是一个非常重要的区别，因为如果你是父母或工作人员，并且有人大喊大叫，首先，我们在将情绪与行为贴上标签方面犯了严重错误。
We got to just throw that out.
我们必须把它扔掉。
There's no correlation really between behavior and emotion.
行为和情绪之间确实没有相关性。
I can stomp my feet as a boy because I'm feeling sad just because it's more culturally acceptable for me to stomp than to cry.
作为一个男孩，我可以跺脚，因为我感到悲伤，只是因为从文化上来说，跺脚比哭泣更容易被接受。
And so, "Why are you so angry?" Well, maybe I'm feeling shame, which is my experience.
所以，“你为什么这么生气？”好吧，也许我感到羞耻，这是我的经历。
I was yelling and screaming as a kid because I was being bullied so much, and then my mother would be like, "Who do you think you are talking to me that way?" And then my father would say, "Go to your room." And I'd be like, "Is anybody reading my emotions properly or asking me how I'm feeling because you would know that I'm acting out because of fear and shame?" Never happened because of a variety of reasons of triggering my parents, and they didn't have such high emotional intelligence.
当我还是个孩子的时候，我因为受到太多欺负而大喊大叫，然后我妈妈就会说：“你以为你是谁在用这种方式跟我说话？”然后我父亲会说：“回你的房间去。”我会说，“有人能正确地解读我的情绪，或者问我感觉如何，因为你会知道我的行为是因为恐惧和羞耻吗？”从来没有因为各种原因触发我父母的情况，而且他们也没有那么高的情商。
They loved me, just didn't have high emotional intelligence.
他们爱我，只是情商不高。
And so going back to the anger, disappointment one, unmet expectations versus perceived injustice.
回到愤怒、失望、未满足的期望与感知到的不公正。
And so when you think about it in terms of the strategy, like for example, my other career, Justina, was as a martial arts teacher.
因此，当你从策略的角度考虑时，例如，我的另一个职业贾斯蒂娜是一名武术老师。
So I have a fifth-degree black belt in a Korean martial art called Hapkido.
所以我拥有韩国武术合气道黑带五段。
So if this podcast doesn't go so well.
所以如果这个播客进展得不太顺利。
Anyhow, I was an awkward kid, very insecure, low self-esteem.
无论如何，我是一个尴尬的孩子，非常没有安全感，自卑。
I got into the martial arts.
我开始接触武术。
I thought, "I'm going to get my yellow belt, and I'm going to feel tough and proud." Failed my freaking yellow belt test.
我想，“我会获得黄带，我会感到坚强和自豪。”我那该死的黄带考试没通过。
At 13 years old, you couldn't imagine, there's nothing worse for a 13-year-old kid who's feeling shame and being bullied to fail a yellow belt test.
你无法想象，13 岁的时候，对于一个 13 岁的孩子来说，没有什么比黄带考试不及格而感到羞耻和被欺负更糟糕的了。
So what do I do?
那我该怎么办？
I go home.
我回家了。
"I hate karate.
“我讨厌空手道。
I'm never going back to karate." Everybody's in an uproar.
我永远不会再回到空手道了。”大家一片哗然。
I'm getting yelled at.
我快被骂了
"I'm paying for your karate.
“我正在为你的空手道付钱。
You're going back to..." Whatever.
你要回去……”无论如何。
And the truth was, let's think about that for a minute.
事实是，让我们考虑一下。
So I go to take the test, and I've got to do my blocks and my kicks, my punches.
所以我去参加考试，我必须做我的格挡、我的踢腿、我的拳击。
I know there's five kicks, there's five punches.
我知道有五踢，有五拳。
And let's say I do them the best I can, but the sensei just says, "You know, Marc, just not good enough.
假设我尽了最大努力，但老师只是说，“你知道，马克，只是不够好。
You're not ready yet." That's legitimate disappointment.
你还没准备好。”这是合理的失望。
I expected to pass.
我原本以为会通过。
I didn't pass.
我没有通过。
I'm feeling disappointed.
我感到很失望。
So the strategy for that is what?
那么其策略是什么？
Tutor.
导师。
Help.
帮助。
Show me what I have to do better.
告诉我哪些方面我必须做得更好。
On the other hand, let's say, which was true for me, that some of the kids who were the bullies in my middle school also took karate.
另一方面，比如说，对我来说确实如此，我中学里的一些欺负孩子的人也学过空手道。
And let's imagine they're watching me take my test, and they're giving me some dirty looks because they're going to threaten me, which did happen.
让我们想象一下，他们正在看着我参加考试，他们用脏兮兮的眼神看我，因为他们要威胁我，这确实发生了。
Getting changed, going, "Wait till you see what it's going to be like for you tomorrow on the way to school." Now how am I feeling?
换好衣服，说道：“等你看看明天上学的路上会是什么样子。”现在我感觉怎么样？
Terrorized, fearful.
惊恐，害怕。
And I failed my test because of that.
因此我的考试失败了。
So you can see how I could show up with a particular behavior.
所以你可以看到我如何表现出特定的行为。
People are attributing emotion to me.
人们把情感归因于我。
They're labeling my emotions for me because they don't have this skill To deactivate as a parent or a teacher or a partner, to be present, to help me understand my experience and then label my experience, understand where it's coming from, and then strategize accordingly.
他们为我贴上我的情绪标签，因为他们没有这种技能：以父母、老师或伴侣的身份停止活动，在场，帮助我理解我的经历，然后给我的经历贴上标签，了解它来自哪里，然后制定相应的策略。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, AG1.
我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商 AG1。
AG1 is a vitamin mineral probiotic drink that also includes prebiotics and adaptogens.
AG1 是一种维生素矿物质益生菌饮料，还包含益生元和适应原。
AG1 is designed to cover all of your foundational nutritional needs, and it tastes great.
AG1 旨在满足您所有的基本营养需求，而且味道极佳。
Now, I've been drinking AG1 since 2012, and I started doing that at a time when my budget for supplements was really limited.
现在，我从 2012 年开始饮用 AG1，当时我的补充剂预算非常有限。
In fact, I only had enough money back then to purchase one supplement, and I'm so glad that I made that supplement AG1.
事实上，当时我的钱只够购买一种补充剂，我很高兴我制作了这款补充剂 AG1。
The reason for that is even though I strive to eat most of my foods from whole foods and minimally processed foods, it's very difficult for me to get enough fruits, vegetables, vitamins and minerals, micronutrients, and adaptogens from food alone.
原因是，尽管我努力吃天然食品和最低限度加工食品中的大部分食物，但我很难仅从食物中获取足够的水果、蔬菜、维生素和矿物质、微量营养素和适应原。
And I need to do that in order to ensure that I have enough energy throughout the day, I sleep well at night, and keep my immune system strong.
我需要这样做，以确保我全天有足够的能量，晚上睡得好，并保持我的免疫系统强大。
But when I take AG1 daily, I find that all aspects of my health, my physical health, my mental health, and my performance, both cognitive and physical, are better.
但是当我每天服用 AG1 时，我发现我的健康各方面，我的身体健康，我的心理健康，以及我的认知和身体表现都更好了。
I know that because I've had lapses when I didn't take AG1, and I certainly felt the difference.
我知道这一点，因为我在不参加 AG1 的时候也曾犯过错误，而且我确实感受到了其中的不同。
I also notice, and this makes perfect sense given the relationship between the gut microbiome and the brain, that when I regularly take AG1, which for me means a serving in the morning or mid-morning and again later in the afternoon or evening, that I have more mental clarity and more mental energy.
我还注意到，考虑到肠道微生物组和大脑之间的关系，这是完全合理的，当我定期服用 AG1（对我来说意味着早上或上午服用一次，下午或晚上再次服用）时，我的思维更加清晰，精力更加充沛。
If you'd like to try AG1, you can go to drinkag1.com/huberman to claim a special offer.
如果您想尝试 AG1，可以访问 Drinkag1.com/huberman 申请特别优惠。
Right now, they're giving away five free travel packs and a year's supply of vitamin D3 K2.
目前，他们正在赠送五个免费旅行包和一年的维生素 D3 K2。
Again, that's drinkag1.com/huberman to claim that special offer.
再次强调，您可以通过 Drinkag1.com/huberman 领取特别优惠。
You said that disappointment is when one does everything essentially correctly, meaning gave as much effort as they could, et cetera, and it didn't work out.
你说失望是指一个人基本上正确地完成了所有事情，这意味着付出了尽可能多的努力，等等，但没有成功。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Correct.
正确。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Versus anger, which is perceived injustice.
与愤怒相比，愤怒被认为是不公正的。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Would you say that your response to not getting your yellow belt then, because as a fifth-degree black belt now, clearly, you got that yellow belt eventually.
你会说你对当时没有获得黄带的反应吗？因为现在作为五级黑带，显然，你最终获得了黄带。
I want to hear that part of the story, too.
我也想听听这个故事的一部分。
That you were experiencing anger?
你感到愤怒吗？
In this case, could we even call it inappropriate anger?
既然如此，我们还能称之为不恰当的愤怒吗？
Simply inappropriate because what you really needed to understand was this notion of disappointment, but no one had taught it to you.
根本不合适，因为你真正需要理解的是失望的概念，但没有人教给你。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
I think what you're getting at, though, is this not knowing how you're feeling, because I was never taught language, right?
不过，我认为你的意思是不知道你的感受，因为我从来没有学过语言，对吗？
And having an experience that could be many feelings at once, which could be disappointment, could be anger, could be embarrassment.
一次经历可能会同时产生多种感受，可能是失望，可能是愤怒，也可能是尴尬。
But you got to unpack the situation.
但你必须解决这个问题。
What was the real event that happened?
真实发生的事件到底是什么？
What really happened in that moment?
那一刻到底发生了什么？
And so if it were legitimate, legitimate test, and I blocked the punch, and I just didn't have the strength to block it, to really stand firm, it's disappointment.
所以，如果这是合法的、合法的测试，而我挡住了这一拳，而我只是没有力量挡住它，真正站稳脚跟，那就令人失望了。
It's like, "Son, you thought your blocks were strong.
就像是，“儿子，你以为你的积木很坚固。
Unfortunately, you need some work.
不幸的是，你需要做一些工作。
Let's practice every day after school together.
每天放学后我们一起练习吧。
We're going to get these blocks down so you can get that yellow belt test.
我们将把这些块放下来，这样你就可以通过黄带测试。
There's no other reason." If it's because the bullies are staring at me and I'm not capable of dealing with those piercing eyes that are at me, and I'm feeling so anxious and overwhelmed, and I just can't block because I'm just freaked out, that's a whole another story.
没有其他原因。”如果是因为恶霸们盯着我看，而我无法应对那些锐利的目光，我感到如此焦虑和不知所措，我无法阻止，因为我只是吓坏了，那就是另一个故事了。
Do you see how a parent or a teacher would have to really differentiate their support?
您是否认为家长或老师必须如何真正区分他们的支持？
But you have to really get at the experience, which means we have to have relationships that are trustworthy, loving, caring with all people.
但你必须真正获得这种体验，这意味着我们必须与所有人建立值得信赖、充满爱心和关怀的关系。
Because otherwise, we don't build that connection to really understand how people feel.
因为否则，我们就无法建立这种联系来真正了解人们的感受。
We just take the kind of behavior, and we're like, "Why are you behaving that way?
我们只是接受这种行为，然后我们会说：“你为什么这样做？
Go to your room," or, "Just practice." It's like, no, I've been bullied at school, and now the bully is threatening me.
去你的房间，”或者，“只是练习。”就像，不，我在学校被欺负了，现在欺负者正在威胁我。
That's serious stuff that needs to be taken care of.
这是需要处理的严重问题。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Online emojis and downward-facing thumbs versus upward-facing thumbs and this kind of thing and vomit emojis and things like that, a mind blown.
在线表情符号和向下的拇指与向上的拇指之类的东西以及呕吐表情符号之类的东西，令人震惊。
I'm starting to realize that these may be doing far more harm than we realize in this-
我开始意识到这些造成的伤害可能比我们意识到的要大得多-
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Yeah, I think it's fun.
是的，我觉得这很有趣。
And maybe it's just if you want to just use it for fun, not a problem.
也许这只是如果你只是想用它来娱乐，而不是问题。
If we're going to use it to really communicate, not so great.
如果我们要用它来真正进行交流，那就不太好了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm thinking of instances where people are just using these with the intention of expressing their dislike of something.
我想到了一些例子，人们使用这些只是为了表达他们对某事的厌恶。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But that the people on the receiving end experience a lot of self-criticism as a consequence.
但接收端的人们因此会经历很多自我批评。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mostly kids, but adults, too.
大多数是孩子，但也有成年人。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I know some adults that really can't handle somebody commenting on their Instagram post, like big L or something like that.
我知道有些成年人真的无法接受有人在他们的 Instagram 帖子上发表评论，比如大 L 之类的。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
It's devastating for people.
这对人们来说是毁灭性的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or nope, or this kind of thing.
或者不，或者这样的事情。
It's also interesting because I see it even in the academic community, especially on Twitter, X.
这也很有趣，因为我什至在学术界也看到了它，特别是在 Twitter、X 上。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Where I know that, sure, people reject each other's papers, critique each other's papers, but they do that with a degree of intellectual nuance that transmits a sense of care, right?
我知道，当然，人们会拒绝彼此的论文，批评彼此的论文，但他们这样做时会带着一定程度的智力细微差别，传递出一种关怀感，对吗？
If scientists really care, then they're going to do a careful review.
如果科学家真的关心，那么他们就会进行仔细的审查。
As much as we would all love the this is a perfect paper, that's it, no critique.
尽管我们都喜欢这是一篇完美的论文，但仅此而已，没有批评。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
When somebody critiques something that we do with an attention to detail, provided it's fair, we feel cared for.
当有人批评我们注重细节的事情时，只要是公平的，我们就会感到受到关心。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Totally.
完全可以。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They care for the work, and we care for the work.
他们关心工作，我们关心工作。
And so there's a relationship there, even if it's an anonymous review.
因此，即使是匿名评论，也存在某种关系。
But I'm shocked to see how scientific colleagues I've known for decades, really how they comport themselves online.
但我很震惊地看到我认识了几十年的科学同事们，以及他们在网上的表现。
They'll swear.
他们会发誓。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They'll come out, they won't bother to punctuate things.
他们会出来，他们不会费心去标点符号。
They'll just sort of behave in what seems to be a very activated way.
他们的行为方式似乎非常活跃。
Not all of them, of course.
当然，不是全部。
But it's been very interesting.
但这非常有趣。
The words that come to mind are, I feel like online, especially on social media, the kids are acting like adults, and the adults are acting like children.
我想到的一句话是，我感觉在网上，尤其是在社交媒体上，孩子们表现得像成年人，而成年人的表现也像孩子。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And so there seems to be a kind of regression toward what I'm calling the emojification or the kind of high amplitude expression with blunt tools.
因此，似乎有一种回归，即我所说的表情符号化或使用生硬工具的高振幅表达。
And I don't know what that is because I know these people.
我不知道那是什么，因为我认识这些人。
The reason I'm using the academic community as an example, by the way, it's cost some of these people their jobs, chairs of departments, not at Stanford or Yale, fortunately.
顺便说一句，我之所以用学术界作为例子，是因为这让其中一些人失去了工作，比如系主任，幸运的是，斯坦福大学或耶鲁大学没有。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But it's kind of striking to me the way that when we remove the face-to-face connection, when people will behave that way, and I use the parallel example of anonymous review because there it's anonymous, so in theory, they could behave however they want, but there's an etiquette.
但令我震惊的是，当我们消除面对面的联系时，人们就会这样做，我使用匿名评论的平行例子，因为它是匿名的，所以理论上，他们可以随心所欲地表现，但这是有礼仪的。
So it seems like online etiquette is very deprived of many of the important features that you're starting to lay out for us here.
因此，在线礼仪似乎非常缺乏您在这里开始为我们展示的许多重要功能。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Anonymity causes challenges.
匿名会带来挑战。
It's funny because I gave a speech at Twitter, now known as X, about five years ago, and had analyzed quite a lot of data.
这很有趣，因为大约五年前我在 Twitter（现在称为 X）发表了演讲，并分析了相当多的数据。
It was actually the year that Mariah Carey sang, and it got messed up.
实际上是玛丽亚·凯莉唱歌的那一年，结果搞砸了。
And it was like the week before.
就像前一周一样。
I was going in January, it was like New Year's Eve, and I just was curious because it really was a mess-up.
我一月份去的，就像除夕夜，我只是很好奇，因为那真的是一团糟。
And I said, "How are people going to respond?" And it was 99.99% ripping this amazing diva to shreds.
我说：“人们会如何回应？” 99.99% 的人都把这位令人惊叹的天后撕成了碎片。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I don't recall this incident.
我不记得这件事了。
So she's obviously phenomenally talented, but-
所以她显然是非常有才华的，但是——
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
she made an error.
她犯了一个错误。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
There was something with the mic.
麦克风有问题。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
God forbid she made an error.
上帝保佑她不会犯错误。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Yeah, there was something with the mic.
是的，麦克风有问题。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or someone else.
或者其他人。
Oh, goodness
哦，天哪
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
And she just basically, the mic wasn't working the way she wanted it to work, and she's like, "I'm out of here.
基本上，她只是觉得麦克风没有按照她希望的方式工作，然后她就说：“我要离开这里。
I'm not singing." And you should have seen how people just, millions and millions and millions of comments, and I'm not going to repeat what people said because it was really disgusting.
我不唱歌。”你应该看到人们是如何评论的，数以百万计的评论，我不会重复人们所说的，因为这真的很恶心。
And I got really curious, like what about things like, "Gosh, you've won 15 Grammy awards.
我真的很好奇，比如“天哪，你已经赢得了 15 项格莱美奖。
This must really sting for you." Maybe one post like that.
这对你来说肯定很刺痛。”也许有一篇这样的帖子。
And so it does make you wonder about, A, the type of person who is interested in commenting.
所以它确实让你想知道，A，什么样的人有兴趣发表评论。
We may have a bias there.
我们可能对此有偏见。
I do think we have a bias there.
我确实认为我们在这方面存在偏见。
People who feel protected by something.
感觉受到某种事物保护的人。
If it's a more famous person in politics, obviously people are very clear how they feel.
如果是政界比较有名的人物，显然人们都非常清楚自己的感受。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Politicians sort of open themselves up to it.
政客们对此持开放态度。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Yeah, they do.
是的，他们确实这么做了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Public-facing people in general, I've heard, open themselves up to it.
我听说，一般来说，面向公众的人都会对此敞开心扉。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But politicians in particular.
但尤其是政客。
I think we sort of give the general public a pass to say almost anything about them, but it's not pretty.
我认为我们给了公众一个通行证，让他们可以谈论他们的几乎所有事情，但这并不美好。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
It's not pretty, and it's not emotionally intelligent, to go back to the concept.
回到这个概念上来，这并不漂亮，而且在情商上也不高。
Right?
正确的？
It's like, what's your goal here?
就像，你来这里的目标是什么？
I always ask people that.
我总是这样问人们。
What are you getting out of being nasty?
你从卑鄙中得到什么？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I perceive it as evacutive.
我认为它是空虚的。
I look at that and I think, gosh, what they must feel inside to be able to say those things can't be good.
我看着这一点，我想，天啊，他们内心一定有什么感受才能说出那些不好的话。
But maybe it feels good to them.
但也许这对他们来说感觉很好。
I don't know.
我不知道。
I don't know.
我不知道。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
It might.
可能会。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I don't think I've ever made a negative comment.
我想我从来没有发表过负面评论。
If I have, someone can call me out on it.
如果我有的话，有人可以叫我出来。
Hopefully, it was in sarcasm with a friend-
希望这是对朋友的讽刺——
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
as the target, and they were okay with it or happy with it.
作为目标，他们对此表示满意或满意。
But I don't know what internal emotional or psychological state it would take to go say something cruel to somebody online.
但我不知道在网上对某人说一些残酷的话需要什么样的内心情感或心理状态。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
In my earlier research with Facebook, we analyzed millions and millions of posts.
在我之前对 Facebook 的研究中，我们分析了数以百万计的帖子。
And people can be intentionally mean and hurtful.
人们可能会故意变得刻薄和伤害人。
Just people want to rip people to shreds, and they want to instill fear.
只是人们想把人撕成碎片，他们想灌输恐惧。
And it's very hard to disentangle that, too, just to be honest.
老实说，也很难解决这个问题。
So what we found in our research was that I could say if you're like, Andrew's wearing a black shirt, you'll see that.
所以我们在研究中发现，我可以说，如果你喜欢，安德鲁穿着一件黑色衬衫，你就会看到这一点。
I could say, "Nice shirt." And it might mean nice shirt, or it might mean I'm making fun of your shirt.
我可以说：“衬衫不错。”这可能意味着一件漂亮的衬衫，也可能意味着我在取笑你的衬衫。
And it's just hard, that's the problem with social media in terms of posts.
这很难，这就是社交媒体在帖子方面的问题。
We don't really know because the person who's receiving it has a story, right?
我们真的不知道，因为收到它的人有一个故事，对吧？
That was one challenge we found around getting posts taken down, was that it was hard to have that objective criterion of what was painful to a person.
这是我们在删除帖子时发现的一个挑战，那就是很难有一个客观的标准来衡量什么对一个人来说是痛苦的。
Which is why what we tried to do was help the person who was receiving the content communicate in a way with the person who posted the content to get them to take it down.
这就是为什么我们试图做的是帮助接收内容的人与发布内容的人以某种方式进行沟通，让他们将其删除。
And what we found was that it actually worked really well.
我们发现它实际上效果非常好。
If you taught a teenager, for example, to say, "Hey, Andrew, that comment you made really was hurtful.
例如，如果你教一个青少年说：“嘿，安德鲁，你的评论真的很伤人。
Would you please take it down?" We were more likely to get people to take it down.
麻烦你把它拿下来好吗？”我们更有可能让人们把它拿下来。
And what we found in experimental research was that if we just let people go on their own devices, it tended to be more retaliatory, like, "Who the F do you think you are?" You want to fight back.
我们在实验研究中发现，如果我们只是让人们使用自己的设备，往往会更具报复性，比如“你以为你是谁？”你想要反击。
And that did not motivate the person to take it down.
这并没有促使这个人把它拿下来。
So even meeting gross behavior with compassion can be helpful.
因此，即使以同情心对待粗鲁的行为也会有所帮助。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Can we provide a counterexample for the anger versus disappointment that's on the positive valence-
我们能否提供一个正价的愤怒与失望的反例——
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Sure
当然可以
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
side?
边？
What's a positive set of feelings that people often conflate?
人们经常混淆的积极感受是什么？
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Like happiness and contentment.
喜欢幸福和满足。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, that's a tough one for me.
是的，这对我来说是一件很难的事。
I'm getting Fs all around.
我周围都是F。
Good thing I became a biologist.
幸好我成为了一名生物学家。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Ecstatic and elated.
欣喜若狂。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
This is why I do what I do.
这就是我做我所做的事情的原因。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
This is tough.
这很难。
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
And so I'm good at this.
所以我很擅长这个。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Yes, you are.
是的，你是。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
When you think about happiness, it's usually about when you're achieving something.
当你想到幸福时，通常是指你取得了一些成就。
Right?
正确的？
I'm going to be happy when, this will bring me happiness.
当这会给我带来幸福时，我会感到幸福。
Contentment is the opposite.
知足则相反。
Contentment is everything is just great as it is.
知足就是一切都顺其自然。
I feel complete.
我感觉很完整。
I have enough.
我已经够了。
And part of my argument against the happiness research ...
我反对幸福研究的部分论点......
is that we don't spend enough time helping people strive for contentment, and we push people to strive for happiness, which there's research to show backfires.
问题在于，我们没有花足够的时间帮助人们争取满足，而我们却强迫人们争取幸福，有研究表明，这会适得其反。
If you're waking up every day saying, "What am I going to do today to be happy?
如果你每天醒来都会说：“今天我要做什么才能快乐呢？
What am I going to do to be happy?" Chances are, it's not going to work out a lot.
我要做什么才能快乐呢？”很可能，这不会有太大效果。
And that kind of backfires to create more despair.
而这种事与愿违，会造成更多的绝望。
More-
更多-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, sorry to interrupt, but as soon as you describe contentment that way, and thank you for parsing those two, very useful to me.
是的，很抱歉打扰，但是一旦您以这种方式描述了满足感，并感谢您解析这两个内容，这对我非常有用。
As soon as you describe contentment that way, I imagine waking up and rather than thinking about what needs to be done and the things I want to achieve, which I want to achieve, they bring me joy.
一旦你这样描述满足感，我想象醒来后，而不是思考需要做什么和我想要实现的事情，我想要实现的事情，它们给我带来快乐。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Throw in a third word there just to confuse myself.
在那里添加第三个词只是为了让自己感到困惑。
This notion of contentment, the way that you described, I could see might lead me to pay attention to how good it feels to have gotten some sleep.
我认为，这种满足感的概念，就像你所描述的那样，可能会让我注意到睡一觉的感觉有多好。
To, I sleep well most nights, but what a privilege that is.
对，我大多数晚上都睡得很好，但这是多么荣幸啊。
And to maybe feel the comfort of the comforter and the mattress for a moment before barging into the day -
在开始新的一天之前，也许可以先感受一下被子和床垫的舒适感——
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
to chase happiness, as it were.
可以说是为了追逐幸福。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
I think, the idea that we have to be happy all the time is also ridiculous.
我认为，我们必须一直快乐的想法也是荒谬的。
I'm a neurotic professor.
我是一个神经质的教授。
I'm never happy.
我从来不快乐。
It's tough.
它太硬。
And also, I don't know about you, but given that my dispositional affect, another term, is more on the lower energy, kind of contented, little anxiety.
而且，我不了解你的情况，但考虑到我的性格影响，另一个术语，更多的是较低的能量，一种满足，一点焦虑。
When I'm around the people who are high energy and pleasant all the time, I have a difficult time.
当我和那些总是精力充沛、令人愉快的人在一起时，我会感到很困难。
It's like-
这就像——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because you somehow feel like you're not living up to some standard?
因为你感觉自己没有达到某个标准？
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
No, I just feel overwhelmed and smothered by it.
不，我只是感到不知所措和窒息。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, interesting.
哦，有趣。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
It's like, "Stop being so happy all the time."
就像是，“别总是这么快乐。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Here's where I get to appropriately make a joke about, because before we started, we were talking about East Coast schools versus West Coast schools.
这是我可以适当开个玩笑的地方，因为在我们开始之前，我们正在谈论东海岸学校与西海岸学校。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I was like, "Maybe you come west, and that'll change.
我当时想，“也许你来到西部，情况就会改变。
Or maybe you're right where you belong there at the also phenomenal university that is Yale." But anyway, that's kind of inside ball stuff.
或者，也许你就在耶鲁大学这所同样出色的大学里，这是你所属的地方。”但无论如何，这都是内线的东西。
East Coast University is amazing.
东海岸大学很棒。
Midwest University is amazing.
中西大学很棒。
West Coast University is amazing.
西海岸大学很棒。
Different perceived temperaments, but-
不同的感知气质，但是——
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
For sure
当然
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and styles.
和风格。
Just look at the walking speeds, for instance, not just the weather.
例如，只需查看步行速度，而不仅仅是天气。
But yeah, you raise a very important point.
但是，是的，你提出了一个非常重要的观点。
We have a member of our podcast team that is always in a great mood.
我们的播客团队中有一位总是心情愉快的成员。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
He's always in a great mood.
他总是心情很好。
And it is, for me, a reminder to be in a better mood.
对我来说，它提醒我要有更好的心情。
I'm not somebody that I would say gets...
我不是一个我会说得到的人...
I'm not moody.
我不喜怒无常。
I don't change moods quickly, but I wouldn't say that my disposition is to be Tigger-like and just happy all the time.
我的情绪不会很快改变，但我不会说我的性格就是像跳跳虎一样总是快乐。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But his energy around that doesn't drain me.
但他在这方面的精力并没有耗尽我的精力。
But it makes me wish I was him.
但这让我希望我是他。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
That's good, and that's okay.
这很好，也没关系。
That's you.
那就是你。
You know what I mean?
你知道我的意思？
Part of being emotionally intelligent with colleagues, with romantic partners, with children, whoever, is picking up on that.
与同事、恋人、孩子等人相处时，情商高的一部分就是要意识到这一点。
Now that I know that about you, it makes me think differently about you in terms of what your needs are.
现在我了解了你，这让我对你的需求有了不同的看法。
That's emotional intelligence.
这就是情商。
And for me, I am like, I wake up every morning having an existential crisis.
对我来说，我每天早上醒来都会遇到生存危机。
I'm like, "What am I doing with my life?" And, "What am I doing this today for?" And then I got to publish this paper.
我想，“我的一生在做什么？”并且，“我今天这样做是为了什么？”然后我必须发表这篇论文。
I got to finish my book.
我必须完成我的书。
I got to run my team.
我必须管理我的团队。
Like, "What do I want to do?" And then I'm doing it, and then when I'm doing one thing, I think I should be doing the other thing.
比如，“我想做什么？”然后我就去做，然后当我在做一件事时，我想我应该做另一件事。
That's just who I am.
这就是我。
And I've tried everything, and that's my operating system.
我已经尝试了一切，这就是我的操作系统。
I'm more aware.
我更清楚了。
I'm working on another book, and, as I was working on it, I'm in a chapter, and all I could think about is the next chapter.
我正在写另一本书，当我写这本书的时候，我已经在写一章了，我所能想到的就是下一章。
And then I started like, "Marc, give yourself permission to be with this freaking chapter.
然后我开始说，“马克，允许自己参与这个可怕的章节。
It's okay.
没关系。
You can focus on one thing and not worry about the future." And I had to literally do that for myself.
你可以专注于一件事，而不用担心未来。”我必须亲自为自己做到这一点。
That's how I am.
我就是这样。
And so knowing that about myself is useful because it helps me find the strategies that work for me.
因此，了解自己很有用，因为它可以帮助我找到适合我的策略。
And going back to the happiness thing, it's because I'm also introverted.
回到幸福的话题，那是因为我也很内向。
And so, when I'm around extroverts a lot, I'm drained.
所以，当我经常和外向的人在一起时，我就会感到精疲力尽。
After something like this, this is an intense conversation, I'm not going to go to a sports bar, have a beer, and watch the game.
在这样的事情之后，这是一场激烈的谈话，我不会去体育酒吧，喝啤酒，看比赛。
I would never do that anyway.
无论如何我永远不会那样做。
But anyway, that's just not my thing.
但无论如何，那不是我的事。
That would make me, my brain would be burnt.
那会让我，我的大脑会被烧毁。
My dream would be to leave here, go take a hot yoga class and take a walk, have a glass of wine, maybe by myself or with a friend, and then end the day.
我的梦想是离开这里，去上一堂热瑜伽课，散散步，喝一杯酒，也许自己一个人，或者和朋友一起，然后结束这一天。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
All those things are readily available within-
所有这些东西都可以在-
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
There you go.
就这样吧。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
less than a mile of here.
距离这里不到一英里。
We can point you in the right direction.
我们可以为您指明正确的方向。
It sounds lovely.
听起来很可爱。
The introversion/extroversion bit is going to prick up people's ears.
内向/外向的说法会引起人们的注意。
It certainly did mine.
这确实是我的。
I like time alone.
我喜欢独处的时间。
I also like time alone in the presence of many people.
我也喜欢在很多人面前独处的时间。
In fact, I get my best work done always either alone in nature or in Manhattan, where there are people around me, but I'm completely isolated at the same time.
事实上，我总是能独自在大自然中或在曼哈顿完成最好的工作，那里周围有人，但同时我又完全孤立。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
I love that, too.
我也喜欢这个。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So, how should we think about introversion and extroversion?
那么，我们应该如何看待内向和外向呢？
These things get thrown around so much in popular culture.
这些东西在流行文化中被广泛使用。
Are there some solid scientific studies that support that introversion can best be defined as blank and extroversion as blank?
是否有一些可靠的科学研究支持内向可以最好地定义为空白，外向可以定义为空白？
And I'm guessing there's a range there.
我猜那里有一个范围。
It's got to be on a continuum.
它必须是一个连续体。
It can't be two bins.
不可能是两个箱子。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
For some people, it's very clear.
对于某些人来说，这是非常清楚的。
They are a clear traited introvert, and for some people, they're just endlessly extroverted, no matter.
他们是明显的内向者，但无论如何，对于某些人来说，他们只是无限外向。
They wake up wanting to be with people.
他们醒来后想要与人在一起。
The end of the day, they want to go out with people more.
归根结底，他们想更多地与人出去。
And so what research shows, for example, with creative people, is they tend to be both.
因此，研究表明，例如，对于有创造力的人来说，他们往往两者兼而有之。
They tend to be high introverts and high extroverts, which is interesting, right?
他们往往是高度内向和高度外向的人，这很有趣，对吧？
They're introverts when they're doing their art, and then they're extroverts when they're out there selling their art.
当他们创作艺术时，他们是内向的，而当他们在那里出售艺术时，他们又是外向的。
Which is hard for some artists, because a lot of artists are kind of introspective and they're creative types, but they really struggle with getting out there and being that extroverted, like, "Look at my art." And so you're the lucky artist if you are treated in both directions.
这对一些艺术家来说很难，因为很多艺术家都是内省的，而且他们是创造性的类型，但他们真的很难走出去并变得外向，比如“看看我的艺术”。因此，如果您受到双向对待，那么您就是幸运的艺术家。
I think the easiest way to think about it is just, it's a proclivity.
我认为最简单的思考方式就是，这是一种倾向。
It's a proclivity to how you want to use your energy.
这是你想要如何使用你的能量的倾向。
And the introvert is more a container, wants to contain their energy.
而内向的人更像是一个容器，想要容纳自己的能量。
They want to be in small groups.
他们想成为小团体。
They want less frenetic environments.
他们想要不那么疯狂的环境。
And the extrovert just has a proclivity for more sensation-seeking, larger social groups.
外向的人只是倾向于寻求更多刺激、更大的社交群体。
And again, it's a preference.
再说一遍，这是一种偏好。
I always say I'm an introvert with pretty good social skills.
我总是说我是一个内向的人，但社交能力很好。
I can appear to be extroverted.
我可能看起来很外向。
Most people think I'm outgoing, and I always tell, I don't even like people that much.
大多数人认为我很外向，我总是说，我什至不太喜欢别人。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You seem very outgoing.
你看起来很外向。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Yeah, I'm not.
是的，我不是。
If I'm at a party, I struggle with, what am I going to do here?
如果我在一个聚会上，我会纠结，我要在这里做什么？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
When you say you don't necessarily like people-
当你说你不一定喜欢别人时——
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
I'm joking
我开玩笑的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that much.
就这么多。
I realize you're joking.
我知道你在开玩笑。
And I was just going to make sure to ask, because I can't presume, that doesn't mean that you dislike people.
我只是想确保问一下，因为我不能假设，这并不意味着你不喜欢别人。
It's just that being in the presence of a lot of people doesn't draw you out to want to be closer to or get to know all these people simply because they're there.
只是，在很多人面前并不会仅仅因为他们在那里而让你想要接近或了解所有这些人。
Whereas an extrovert seems to really like forming and engaging in new relationships, old relationships, all relationships, relating.
而外向的人似乎真的很喜欢建立和参与新的关系、旧的关系、所有的关系、关联。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
If you're running a campaign to run for mayor of your town, you want to hire an extroverted PR person.
如果您正在竞选镇长，您需要聘请一位外向的公关人员。
An extroverted person do marketing, because they're going to be out there banging on the doors, not very comfortable talking to people.
外向的人做营销，因为他们会在外面敲门，与人交谈不太舒服。
The introvert is going to be better at doing the accounting and doing the planning.
内向的人会更擅长做会计和做计划。
And we've done this research, actually.
事实上，我们已经做了这项研究。
Even fun with my students, I would have them take measures of their valid measures of introversion and extroversion.
即使与我的学生一起玩耍，我也会让他们对内向和外向进行有效的测量。
I would score them into groups, get the really extroverted group and the really introverted group, and I'd have them plan a party.
我会把他们分成几组，分为真正外向的组和真正内向的组，然后我让他们计划一个聚会。
Just go plan a party.
去计划一个聚会吧。
And the group of extroverts, there's bonfires, there's beer, there's loud music on the beach, and the introverts are like, "We have to make sure we have good napkins." "We're going to have four people.
一群外向的人，有篝火，有啤酒，海滩上有吵闹的音乐，而内向的人则说，“我们必须确保我们有好的餐巾。” “我们将有四个人。
It's going to be quiet music." That's just how we're built.
这将是安静的音乐。”我们就是这样构建的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Interesting.
有趣。
When I think of throwing a great party, and I've thrown a few what I like to think were great parties, it involves inviting a bunch of people over and then being able to stand back from a lot of it and not have to participate in all of it.
当我想到举办一场盛大的派对时，我已经举办了一些我认为很棒的派对，这涉及到邀请一群人过来，然后能够从很多人中退出，而不必参加所有的活动。
I just like seeing friends that didn't know each other start to interact.
我只是喜欢看到彼此不认识的朋友开始互动。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
That's cool.
太酷了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's fun for me.
这对我来说很有趣。
And then if I have to communicate directly with too many people at the party, I would definitely feel drained.
然后，如果我必须在聚会上与太多人直接交流，我肯定会感到筋疲力尽。
I'm known to retreat to a room and take a nap or disappear-
大家都知道我会躲到一个房间里小睡一会儿或者消失——
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Yeah, so maybe you are more introverted
是的，所以也许你比较内向
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in the middle of a party.
在聚会中间。
Yeah.
是的。
I think so.
我想是的。
Rick Rubin, who's world renowned for his creative insights and creativity, and for being Rick, I think once said on a podcast perhaps, or maybe he said this to me, that Tom Petty was the sort of person that basically didn't do anything besides write music and read books and interact with the small number of people in his inner circle, and the idea of leaving the house was just completely overwhelming to him.
里克·鲁宾 (Rick Rubin) 因其创造性的洞察力和创造力而闻名于世，我想他可能曾经在播客上说过，或者也许他对我说过，汤姆·佩蒂 (Tom Petty) 是那种除了写音乐、读书以及与他的核心圈子里的少数人互动之外基本上不做任何事的人，而离开家的想法对他来说完全是压倒性的。
Now, of course, people were always approaching him, but really, really extreme introvert.
当然，现在人们总是在接近他，但他真的非常非常内向。
Whereas Rick has described, and I won't name names here, other famous people, musicians and otherwise, that go out specifically to try and get the attention of fame.
里克（Rick）描述了（我不会在这里点名）其他名人、音乐家和其他人，他们专门出去试图引起名声的关注。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And if they don't, they feel absolutely isolated.
如果他们不这样做，他们就会感到绝对孤立。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Makes sense.
有道理。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Even though they have people in their private life, it becomes a kind of extroversion requirement.
即使他们的私人生活中有人，这也成为一种外向的要求。
I would imagine life is much harder for the extrovert in the long run because there's so much need there.
我想从长远来看，外向的人的生活会更加困难，因为那里的需求太多了。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
The research shows the extroverts tend to have a little bit more success because they're more willing to get out there and ask for it.
研究表明，外向的人往往会取得更大的成功，因为他们更愿意走出去寻求成功。
They get raises more quickly.
他们更快地获得加薪。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I see.
我明白了。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
And in my work in schools, I always ask teachers to pay attention to the personality of their students because the introvert has a lot of great ideas.
在我在学校的工作中，我总是要求老师关注学生的个性，因为内向的人有很多很棒的想法。
They're just not dying to raise their hand and get the attention.
他们只是不想举手并引起注意。
So don't just call on the kids who are raising their hands because you're missing out on getting some great information.
因此，不要只是因为你错过了一些重要的信息而呼吁那些举手的孩子。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In that case, do you cold call on people?
在这种情况下，你会冷酷地拜访别人吗？
Whenever I'm teaching, I'm somewhat reluctant to cold call on people because I recall it can be terrifying when suddenly you're sitting there taking notes, trying to organize your thoughts around the material, and then suddenly the whole room's looking at you.
每当我教学时，我都不太愿意去拜访别人，因为我记得当你突然坐在那里记笔记，试图围绕材料组织你的想法，然后突然整个房间都在看着你时，这可能会很可怕。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
I set expectations around that.
我围绕这一点设定了期望。
Because I'm really particular about that because it drives me crazy when the talkative extrovert is always getting their thing said.
因为我对此非常挑剔，因为当健谈的外向者总是说出自己的想法时，这会让我发疯。
I think there's good instructional practices that can help with that.
我认为良好的教学实践可以对此有所帮助。
One thing I'm thinking about, though, is this intersection of personality and emotional intelligence.
不过，我正在考虑的一件事是个性和情商的交叉点。
You just kind of brought that up for me.
你只是为我提出了这个问题。
And people confuse those a lot.
人们常常混淆这些。
So, for example, I even confused it when I was younger before I studied it, because I'm high also in neuroticism, meaning I am more mercurial in terms of I worry about things, and I'm fine, then I worry again.
所以，举个例子，我什至在我年轻的时候在研究它之前就混淆了它，因为我的神经质也很高，这意味着我在担心事情方面更加善变，我很好，然后我又担心了。
That's who I am.
这就是我。
And I just always assumed that someone who is high in neuroticism or more, as I said, kind of volatile emotionally, that was just low emotional intelligence.
我总是认为，一个人如果神经质程度很高，或者像我说的那样，情绪不稳定，那么他的情商就很低。
Because how could you be emotionally intelligent if you're emotionally volatile?
因为如果你情绪不稳定，你怎么可能有情商呢？
And then I did all this research and found there's pretty much no correlation between personality traits and emotional intelligence.
然后我做了所有这些研究，发现人格特质和情商之间几乎没有相关性。
And why is that?
这是为什么呢？
Well, think about it.
好吧，想想看。
If you're someone who is more even-keeled Maybe you don't even have that much of an opportunity to regulate your emotions, right?
如果你是一个比较冷静的人，或许你连调节情绪的机会都没有，对吧？
But then if you get triggered, you've never had experience, so it's actually harder for you.
但如果你被触发了，你就没有经验，所以这对你来说实际上会更困难。
Someone like me, I'm practicing it all the time, right?
像我这样的人，我一直在练习，对吗？
I'm always like, I'm in a bad mood and I got to give a meeting.
我总是觉得，我心情不好，我得开会。
I'm irritable.
我很烦躁。
I got to give a presentation.
我得做一个演讲。
So I'm constantly figuring out how to deal with my emotions.
所以我一直在思考如何处理自己的情绪。
And that's why they're separate concepts.
这就是为什么它们是不同的概念。
And in addition to it, just to build on this, knowing your personality traits can be extraordinarily helpful for choosing the best strategies to regulate your emotions.
除此之外，在此基础上，了解自己的性格特征对于选择调节情绪的最佳策略非常有帮助。
Why is that?
这是为什么？
I was traveling in Australia recently, and I gave this speech to a group of people.
我最近在澳大利亚旅行，向一群人做了这个演讲。
The person who was the person in charge of the speech, it was about an hour from Melbourne.
这位演讲的负责人，距离墨尔本大约一个小时车程。
And I took the train because I preferred to stay in the city.
我坐火车是因为我更喜欢呆在城市里。
Took the train I was planning to take.
乘坐了我原本打算乘坐的火车。
I had bought my train ticket back.
火车票我已经买回来了。
The convener said, "You know, Mark, I just really would love to be with you, and can I drive you back to your hotel?" And I'm thinking to myself, that is the worst thing you could ever ask me.
召集人说：“马克，你知道吗，我真的很想和你在一起，我可以开车送你回酒店吗？”我心里想，这是你问过我的最糟糕的事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And on the wrong side of the road.
并且在路的错误一侧。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
And I had my train ticket.
我有火车票。
It was a full day of presentations and stuff.
这是一整天的演讲和其他事情。
I really wanted to be by myself to decompress, but I felt bad, and I said, "Sure." The guy talked to me for an hour, like he just nonstop talked to me.
我真的很想一个人减压，但我感觉很糟糕，我说：“当然。”那家伙跟我聊了一个小时，就像他不停地跟我说话一样。
I got back to my hotel.
我回到了酒店。
I was like, I am going to have a nervous breakdown.
我当时想，我要精神崩溃了。
I need another day to recover.
我还需要一天的时间来恢复。
And it annoyed me about myself not practicing what I teach, which was, Mark, know thyself.
我对自己没有实践我所教的内容感到恼火，那就是，马克，了解你自己。
You're drained.
你已经筋疲力尽了。
Be polite.
要有礼貌。
It was my insecurity of just saying, "I really appreciate you wanting to drive me back, but I really have a lot to do tomorrow.
我只是不安全感地说：“我真的很感激你想送我回去，但明天我真的有很多事情要做。
I need to rest my voice.
我需要让我的声音休息一下。
I need to do some prep." Instead, I just sat there shaking and just went crazy.
我需要做一些准备。”相反，我只是坐在那儿发抖，简直要发疯了。
So do you see what I'm getting at?
那么你明白我的意思了吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Really knowing yourself in terms of what drives you and what your personality traits, just introversion, extroversion alone, and how that relates to your selection of strategies is so important.
真正了解自己的驱动力和性格特征，内向，外向，以及这与您选择策略的关系非常重要。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Super important, and by the way, my joke about driving on the wrong side of the road, I do realize that we drive on the wrong side-
超级重要，顺便说一下，我关于在路错误的一边开车的笑话，我确实意识到我们在错误的一边开车 -
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
There you go
就这样吧
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
of the road for Australians and those in the UK.
澳大利亚人和英国人的道路。
So, I'll do the touché for you.
那么，我会为你做点什么。
I'd like to take a brief break to thank one of our sponsors, LMNT.
我想短暂休息一下，以感谢我们的赞助商之一 LMNT。
LMNT is an electrolyte drink that has everything you need and nothing you don't.
LMNT 是一种电解质饮料，拥有您需要的一切，没有您不需要的东西。
That means the electrolytes, sodium, magnesium, and potassium, in the correct ratios, but no sugar.
这意味着电解质、钠、镁和钾的比例正确，但不含糖。
Now, I and others on the podcast have talked a lot about the critical importance of hydration for proper brain and bodily function.
现在，我和播客上的其他人已经谈论了很多关于水合作用对于大脑和身体正常功能的至关重要性。
Research shows that even a slight degree of dehydration can really diminish cognitive and physical performance.
研究表明，即使是轻微程度的脱水也会确实降低认知和身体表现。
It's also important that you get adequate electrolytes in order for your body and brain to function at their best.
获得足够的电解质也很重要，这样您的身体和大脑才能发挥最佳功能。
The electrolytes, sodium, magnesium, and potassium, are critical for the functioning of all the cells in your body, especially your neurons or nerve cells.
电解质（钠、镁和钾）对于体内所有细胞（尤其是神经元或神经细胞）的功能至关重要。
To make sure that I'm getting proper amounts of hydration and electrolytes, I dissolve one packet of LMNT in about 16 to 32 ounces of water when I wake up in the morning, and I drink that basically first thing in the morning.
为了确保我获得适量的水合作用和电解质，当我早上醒来时，我将一包 LMNT 溶解在大约 16 至 32 盎司的水中，并且我基本上早上第一件事就是喝它。
I also drink LMNT dissolved in water during any kind of physical exercise I'm doing, especially on hot days if I'm sweating a lot and losing water and electrolytes.
我还会在进行任何体育锻炼时饮用溶解在水中的 LMNT，尤其是在炎热的天气里，如果我大量出汗并失去水分和电解质。
If you'd like to try LMNT, you can go to drinklmnt.com/huberman, spelled drink L-M-N-T .com/huberman, to claim a free LMNT sample pack with the purchase of any LMNT drink mix.
如果您想尝试 LMNT，可以访问 Drinklmnt.com/huberman（拼写为 Drink L-M-N-T .com/huberman），购买任意 LMNT 混合饮料即可领取免费 LMNT 样品包。
Again, that's drinklmnt.com/huberman to claim a free sample pack.
再次强调，请访问 Drinklmnt.com/huberman 索取免费样品包。
Text messaging is an interesting example of communication that nowadays, depending on how many people have access to your phone number, can either feel like a wonderful source of filling the gaps on trains and while in transit and while walking to the car, perhaps, hopefully not while driving, although people seem to do that.
短信是一个有趣的沟通示例，如今，取决于有多少人可以访问您的电话号码，它可以感觉像是填补火车上、公交车上和步行上车时的空白的绝佳来源，也许，希望不是在开车时，尽管人们似乎这样做。
And yet for the introvert, I can imagine that it might feel inundating.
然而对于内向的人来说，我可以想象这可能会让人感到不知所措。
It might feel kind of overwhelming.
可能会让人感觉有点难以承受。
How do you feel about text messages?
您对短信有何看法？
Because it's just yet another-
因为这只是另一个——
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
form of communication.
沟通的形式。
I ask this for a very particular reason.
我问这个有一个非常特殊的原因。
I could imagine that extroverts love to text message.
我可以想象外向的人喜欢发短信。
They love to receive and send text messages, that they can't stand a moment of downtime before boarding a plane.
他们喜欢接收和发送短信，他们无法忍受登机前的片刻停顿。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They're excited that there's yet another form of communication at all hours of the day and night, whereas introverts would be less excited to text message.
他们很高兴能在白天和晚上的任何时间都有另一种形式的交流，而内向的人则对发短信不那么兴奋。
I also ask this in part because I want to protect the variable latency to respond to text option-
我也问这个问题，部分原因是我想保护可变延迟以响应文本选项-
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that I've tried to exercise in my life, but that doesn't really seem to work.
我在生活中尝试过锻炼身体，但这似乎并没有真正起作用。
I think most people assume if I walk up to you and I say hello, and you wait 10 minutes to say hello back, I'll first think you're a little bit rude and then think you're a little strange.
我想大多数人都会认为，如果我走到你跟前打招呼，而你等了 10 分钟才打招呼，我首先会觉得你有点粗鲁，然后会觉得你有点奇怪。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Whereas if I text you hello and I don't hear back right away, I might think you're busy.
然而，如果我给你发短信问好，但没有立即收到回复，我可能会认为你很忙。
There's some wiggle room for interpretation, but I think what I'm really getting at here is do we tend to project the same latency expectation on texts that we ourselves embrace?
有一些解释的回旋余地，但我认为我真正想要的是我们是否倾向于对我们自己接受的文本投射相同的延迟期望？
This seems like an important source of potential miscommunication, misunderstanding, and maybe worse.
这似乎是潜在的沟通不畅、误解甚至更糟的重要根源。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Certainly.
当然。
You could imagine also, though, that the introvert might be more comfortable texting because it's less stimulation.
不过，你也可以想象，内向的人可能更喜欢发短信，因为刺激较少。
So I think it could work in both directions.
所以我认为它可以双向发挥作用。
I think the problem with text messaging is that it's decreasing emotional intelligence, because you really can't communicate the same way through a text message.
我认为短信的问题在于它会降低情商，因为你确实无法通过短信以同样的方式进行交流。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thank you.
谢谢你。
Can you repeat both those things again?
你能再重复一遍这两件事吗？
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Yes.
是的。
I'm happy to say it 100 times.
我很高兴说100遍。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, because I feel this wash of ...
不，因为我感觉到这种洗...
relief, and now I'm looking for the appropriate word because I'm talking to you, so I feel like I have to use the exact appropriate word.
松了一口气，现在我正在寻找合适的词，因为我正在和你说话，所以我觉得我必须使用确切合适的词。
I feel emancipated.
我感觉自己解放了。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
There you go.
就这样吧。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because I also feel that as texting has become more routine and has crossed a number of different lines of formality and informality, right?
因为我也觉得发短信已经变得更加常规，并且跨越了许多正式和非正式的界限，对吗？
Not just with family members, but with coworkers, and the people we do and don't know, and just met and have known for ages.
不仅是与家人，还与同事，以及我们认识和不认识的人，以及刚刚认识并认识多年的人。
The jargon that we use with one group is different than the jargon we use with another.
我们对一个群体使用的行话与我们对另一群体使用的行话不同。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But I feel that texting, in general, has really degraded our ability to communicate verbally and in writing elsewhere.
但我觉得，总的来说，发短信确实降低了我们在其他地方进行口头和书面交流的能力。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
There's good research on even teens right now prefer to text than to be face-to-face.
有一项很好的研究表明，即使是现在的青少年也更喜欢发短信而不是面对面。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's so weird.
那太奇怪了。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Which is not helpful to building good relationships.
这对于建立良好的关系没有帮助。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sorry, forgive me.
对不起，请原谅我。
I'm going to interrupt you, too.
我也来打断你。
I have no idea what it's like to be a teenager in 2024, so I've caught myself.
我不知道 2024 年的青少年会是什么样子，所以我控制住了自己。
I have no place saying weird, because there were things that I was doing as a teenager that I'm sure adults were like, "That's weird."
我没有资格说奇怪，因为我十几岁的时候所做的一些事情我确信成年人会说，“这很奇怪。”
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Of course.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So I take that back.
所以我收回那句话。
The other backsie.
另一个后背。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
But if you think about how disconnected and alienated and lonely people feel these days, that's not necessarily going to help make things better.
但如果你想想现在人们感受到的脱节、疏远和孤独，这并不一定会让事情变得更好。
I have an example.
我有一个例子。
When my father passed away a number of years ago, I got all these text messages, "I'm so sorry for your loss.
几年前，当我父亲去世时，我收到了所有这些短信：“我对你的去世感到非常抱歉。
I'm so sorry for your loss." From people who I thought were really good friends of mine, like 20, 30-year friends.
我对你的损失感到非常抱歉。”来自那些我认为是我真正的好朋友的人，比如 20、30 年的朋友。
I'm like, "You're not going to pick up the phone and listen to my voice and ask me, 'What can I do to support you right now?'" It's so strange, and actually, one of my closest friends didn't even text me.
我想，“你不会拿起电话，听我的声音，问我，‘现在我能做什么来支持你？’”这太奇怪了，事实上，我最亲密的朋友之一甚至没有给我发短信。
She texted my assistant and said, "Please go into Mark's office and tell him that I love him." I'm like, "This is really weird." I picked up the phone.
她给我的助理发短信说：“请到马克的办公室告诉他我爱他。”我想，“这真的很奇怪。”我拿起电话。
I'm like, "What is happening right now?
我想，“现在发生了什么事？
What is happening right now?" And people have preconceived notions.
现在发生什么事了？”人们有先入为主的观念。
Maybe she thought I was overwhelmed and devastated and needed space.
也许她认为我不知所措、崩溃了，需要空间。
But at the same time, make a phone call, leave me a voice message, and give me some options.
但同时，打个电话，给我留言，给我一些选择。
I had one friend, she's like, "Mark, I know you're going through a lot right now.
我有一个朋友，她说：“马克，我知道你现在经历了很多事情。
I just want you to know, if you want to talk, anytime you want to call me, call me.
我只是想让你知道，如果你想说话，任何时候你想打电话给我，就打电话给我。
If you want to text, text.
如果你想发短信，就发短信。
If you want me to come out and stay with you for a couple of days, I'm there."
如果你想让我出来陪你几天，我就在那里。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's an awesome friend.
这是一个很棒的朋友。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
That was exactly what I needed to hear.
这正是我需要听到的。
I wanted someone to offer, provide options, or just do.
我想要有人提供、提供选择，或者只是做。
But we're so hesitant these days.
但这些天我们很犹豫。
It's kind of scary to me, and it makes me fearful about the future of our relationships in general.
这对我来说有点可怕，这让我对我们关系的未来感到恐惧。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, I think this is such an important topic.
是的，我认为这是一个非常重要的话题。
I think because texting is so common and has been used to communicate so many different forms of human emotion in this broad bin format, how much can you really put into a text?
我认为，由于短信如此普遍，并且已被用来以如此广泛的格式来传达如此多不同形式的人类情感，那么您真正可以在短信中投入多少内容？
I have some friends and coworkers who put-
我有一些朋友和同事——
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
You can voice text.
您可以语音文本。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You can voice text.
您可以语音文本。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Which is like, then it's like ...
就像这样，然后就像......
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Right.
正确的。
Well, there are issues with that, too.
嗯，这也有问题。
I feel like it's enriched compared to texting, unless the text is carefully written out, punctuated.
我觉得它比短信更丰富，除非文字被仔细地写出来，标点符号。
We can see the care that people put into certain texts or emails that they tip, and most people, including myself, don't, right?
我们可以看到人们对他们所提示的某些短信或电子邮件的关心，而大多数人，包括我自己，都没有，对吗？
Texting is a short form-
短信是一种简短的形式——
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
of communication.
的沟通。
Audio notes, voice memos seem like a step up.
音频笔记、语音备忘录似乎是一个进步。
I think what this has probably done is that it's made the phone call or the, goodness, the handwritten card or letter, it's kind of raised that to the pinnacle of care, of expression.
我认为这可能的作用是，它拨打了电话，或者，天哪，手写的卡片或信件，这有点将其提升到关怀和表达的顶峰。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Completely.
完全。
And by the way, text messaging, it's fine.
顺便说一句，短信也很好。
I always, "I'll be home in a little while.
我总是说：“我一会儿就回家。
Can you please pick this up?" Whatever.
可以请你把这个捡起来吗？”任何。
Great.
伟大的。
Nothing wrong with text messaging.
短信没什么问题。
But when it replaces intimacy, and when it replaces building strong bonds, that's where I see the largest problem.
但当它取代了亲密关系，当它取代了建立牢固的联系时，这就是我看到的最大问题。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
I didn't outright set this rule in my relationships, but I would say with my coworkers, family members, and in other kinds of relationships, there's a rule, which is that we don't argue over text.
我并没有在我的人际关系中直接制定这条规则，但我想说，在与我的同事、家庭成员以及其他类型的关系中，有一条规则，那就是我们不能因为文字而争论。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Yeah, it's not cool.
是的，这不酷。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But people do it a lot.
但人们经常这样做。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
It's easier because you don't have to feel the feelings.
这更容易，因为你不必感受这些感受。
That's what it is.
就是这样。
It's, I can be psychologically distant from that person and say what I want to say, where if I have to say it face-to-face, I'm going to have to face a response, and that response may be very uncomfortable for me, and I probably don't have the strategies to deal with it because I never learned them.
就是，我可以在心理上与那个人保持距离，说出我想说的话，如果我必须面对面地说，我将不得不面对一个回应，而这个回应可能会让我非常不舒服，而且我可能没有应对策略，因为我从来没有学过它们。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You and I are both aware that there is neural real estate specifically dedicated to the processing of faces, and specifically to the processing of human faces, and specifically to the processing of the emotions carried in human facial expressions.
你和我都知道，有一些神经区域专门用于处理面部，特别是处理人脸，特别是处理人类面部表情中携带的情绪。
So this is a hardwired aspect to our species.
所以这是我们物种的一个固有的方面。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Which is diminishing.
这正在减少。
There was a study done about kids in camps, and they randomly assigned them to be with their phones, not with their phones, and showed that after a couple of weeks of camp, kids who had their phones decreased in their emotion perception skills.
有一项针对营地中的孩子的研究，他们随机分配他们使用手机，而不是使用手机，结果表明，营地几周后，使用手机的孩子的情绪感知能力下降。
So it makes a difference.
所以这会有所不同。
We need to give children and adults more face-to-face time.
我们需要给孩子和成人更多面对面的时间。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wild.
狂野。
Can we talk about the energy pleasantness axes?
我们能谈谈能量愉悦轴吗？
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And create a mental picture for people of what this is.
并为人们创造一个关于这是什么的心理画面。
I found this to be incredibly useful.
我发现这非常有用。
If listeners or viewers have a pen or pencil and paper, you could map this out, but it's very easy to imagine in your mind.
如果听众或观众有笔或铅笔和纸，您可以将其绘制出来，但在您的脑海中很容易想象。
So maybe you could just tell us.
所以也许你可以告诉我们。
On the vertical axis-
在纵轴上——
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So we have horizontal, we'll call that pleasantness And this is going back to something else that we talked about earlier.
所以我们有水平，我们称之为愉悦感 这又回到了我们之前讨论过的其他事情。
It's called pleasantness, not goodness or badness.
这叫做愉快，而不是善或恶。
It's in this moment, am I feeling highly pleasant, or am I feeling unpleasant?
此时此刻，我是感到非常愉快，还是感到不愉快？
Do I feel like approaching my day, my colleagues?
同事们，我想迎接新的一天吗？
Do I feel like avoiding my colleagues?
我想避开我的同事吗？
Do I feel safe and comfortable?
我感到安全和舒适吗？
Do I feel uncomfortable?
我感觉不舒服吗？
That's the X-axis.
那是 X 轴。
And the way I like to think about it is that from the moment we wake up in the morning till the time we go to bed, that is activated.
我喜欢的思考方式是，从我们早上醒来的那一刻到我们上床睡觉的那一刻，它就被激活了。
You wake up in the morning, and you just, you're all of a sudden have a thought process like, "Yes, I want to get out of bed.
你早上醒来，突然间就有这样的想法：“是的，我想起床。
No, I want to pull the covers over my head." On the Y-axis is energy or activation.
不，我想把被子拉到头上。” Y 轴上是能量或激活。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay, so vertical axis is energy.
好吧，纵轴就是能量。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
The technical term is arousal or activation, but I think energy is a better term.
技术术语是唤醒或激活，但我认为能量是一个更好的术语。
And so it's either you're highly energized, or you're deactivated or low in energy.
因此，要么你精力充沛，要么你精神不振或精力不足。
That's mental energy.
这就是精神能量。
It's physical energy.
这是身体能量。
It's like how much fuel you have.
这就像你有多少燃料。
And then we cross those two axes to create what we call, in our work, the mood meter, and there are four quadrants.
然后我们交叉这两个轴来创建我们在工作中所说的情绪计，有四个象限。
We got high pleasant, high energy, yellow.
我们得到了高愉悦、高能量、黄色。
So think about emotions there.
所以想想那里的情绪。
Happy, excited, elated, ecstatic, optimistic.
高兴、激动、兴高采烈、欣喜若狂、乐观。
We got the green, so that's low energy and pleasant still.
我们选择了绿色，所以能量低，但仍然令人愉快。
That's the calm, content, tranquil, peaceful, relaxed quadrant.
那是平静、满足、平静、平和、放松的象限。
And then we have the unpleasant side, and I'm going to repeat myself.
然后我们还有不愉快的一面，我要重复一遍。
It's not the bad emotions or the negative emotions.
这不是坏情绪或负面情绪。
We're going to call them unpleasant because it's not generally pleasant to be sad, or down, or disappointed, or hopeless, or feeling despair, which is the blue or that low energy, unpleasant.
我们称它们为不愉快的，因为悲伤、沮丧、失望、绝望或感到绝望通常并不令人愉快，这是蓝色或低能量的，不愉快的。
And then we got our red quadrant on the mood meter, which we'll call the high energy, highly unpleasant emotions, which are feelings of anger and anxiety.
然后我们在情绪表上看到了红色象限，我们称之为高能量、高度不愉快的情绪，即愤怒和焦虑的感觉。
So it's very helpful for people because when you're-- You even said this yourself.
所以这对人们非常有帮助，因为当你——你自己也这么说过。
You're not really sure how you're feeling.
你不太确定自己的感受如何。
And we know our inner lives are complex.
我们知道我们的内心生活是复杂的。
So to be able to have a tool that has four quadrants where you go, "I don't know.
因此，为了能够拥有一个具有四个象限的工具，“我不知道。
Am I pleasant?
我令人愉快吗？
I guess I'm kind of pleasant, but my energy's low.
我想我有点令人愉快，但我的精力很低。
All right, I'm in the green.
好吧，我已经绿了。
All right, now what are my options there?
好吧，现在我有什么选择？
No, I'm feeling quite energized and pleasant.
不，我感觉非常有活力和愉快。
Oh, what are my options there?" Et cetera.
哦，那我有什么选择呢？”等等。
We find that for both preschoolers and CEOs, very helpful.
我们发现这对于学龄前儿童和首席执行官来说都非常有帮助。
Extremely helpful.
非常有帮助。
And then, going back to RULER for a minute, we might talk about the quadrant as being the R for self-awareness, right?
然后，回到“标尺”，我们可以将象限视为自我意识的 R，对吧？
Recognizing where am I in emotion space.
认识到我在情感空间中的位置。
And then you might ask yourself, "All right, well, what's going on?
然后你可能会问自己：“好吧，到底发生了什么事？
Why am I thinking that I'm in the yellow or red or blue or green?
为什么我认为我是黄色、红色、蓝色或绿色的？
What just happened?
刚刚发生了什么？
What might be happening?
可能会发生什么？
Oh, I'm about to be on a podcast.
哦，我即将参加播客。
Oh, I'm about to take a test.
哦，我要考试了。
Oh, I'm about to go into a difficult meeting with a colleague.
哦，我即将与一位同事进行一次艰难的会议。
Oh, I'm about to go home, and my partner's going to be mad.
哦，我要回家了，我的搭档会生气的。
Hmm.
嗯。
Okay, now I understand why I'm feeling the way I'm feeling.
好吧，现在我明白为什么我会有这样的感觉了。
I put a word to it.
我说了一句话。
I'm more precise.
我说的更准确
I'm not enraged.
我没有生气。
I'm irritable.
我很烦躁。
I'm not blissful.
我并不幸福。
I'm just content.
我只是知足而已。
I'm not depressed.
我并不沮丧。
I'm just feeling down.
我只是心情低落。
I'm not overwhelmed.
我并没有不知所措。
I'm just feeling a little uneasy." That's helpful because that helps you go into the E and the R of RULER, which is, all right, is this an emotion I need to express, or do I keep it to myself?
我只是感觉有点不安。”这很有帮助，因为这可以帮助你了解 RULER 的 E 和 R，也就是说，好吧，这是我需要表达的情感，还是我应该把它留给自己？
Does this emotion need help?
这种情绪需要帮助吗？
Do I need support right now, or am I okay with what I'm feeling?
我现在需要支持吗？或者我对自己的感受还满意吗？
I have a great story about this, actually.
事实上，我有一个关于这个的很棒的故事。
We're born to be fixers, I think, especially in my role, like as a teacher or if you're a parent with a kid or a teacher, partners, right?
我认为，我们生来就是修复者，尤其是在我的角色中，比如作为一名老师，或者如果你是一个有孩子的父母或老师、合作伙伴，对吧？
And so I go to visit this school where my program is.
所以我去参观了我的项目所在的这所学校。
It's called RULER also, and we're in about 5,000 schools now across the United States.
它也被称为 RULER，我们现在遍布美国大约 5,000 所学校。
And I'm visiting this school, kindergarten, and I do this check-in, and the little boy says he's in the blue, which means unpleasant, low in energy.
我正在参观这所学校、幼儿园，我进行了登记，小男孩说他处于蓝色状态，这意味着不愉快，精力不足。
And of course, my little five-year-old is in the blue, I feel terrible.
当然，我五岁的小孩子正处于忧郁状态，我感觉很糟糕。
And then my fixer, like, "I want to fix this kid.
然后我的修复者会说，“我想修复这个孩子。
I don't want this kid to be in the blue." And so I know I can't do that because it's like the rules of RULER.
我不想让这孩子陷入困境。”所以我知道我不能这样做，因为这就像统治者的规则。
You don't fix people's feelings.
你无法修复人们的感受。
You don't fix people's feelings.
你无法修复人们的感受。
So I just said to the boy, "I'm just curious.
所以我只是对男孩说：“我只是好奇。
You need a strategy?" And he goes, "No." And I'm like, "No?" I said, "I'm just curious.
你需要策略吗？”他说：“不。”我说：“不？”我说：“我只是好奇。
Why don't you need a strategy?" He goes, "Because I know it's impermanent."
为什么不需要策略？”他说：“因为我知道它是无常的。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wow.
哇。
Maybe the next generations coming up are far more emotionally intelligent-
也许下一代人的情商要高得多——
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
than ours, if I may.
比我们的，如果可以的话。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
If they are, if they get direct instruction.
如果是的话，如果他们得到直接指导。
That's my vision for the world, is that everyone gets an emotion education.
这就是我对世界的愿景，就是每个人都接受情感教育。
And the boy says, "No. I know it's going to go away.
男孩说：“不。我知道它会消失。
I'm fine." I'm like, okay.
我很好。”我想，好吧。
I was bow to this kid, like, "You're my teacher." It was amazing.
我向这个孩子鞠躬，就像，“你是我的老师。”太棒了。
And to think that that five-year-old had that insight, that he had an unpleasant feeling that didn't need to be fixed, that it was okay, that he just knew he was in a little funk and-- But he has already experienced that emotions are ephemeral, and he can just let it go, and he'll be in the green a little later, or the red, or whatever else.
想想那个五岁的孩子有这样的洞察力，他有一种不愉快的感觉，不需要修复，没关系，他只是知道自己有点害怕，而且——但他已经体验到情绪是短暂的，他可以放手，稍后他就会变成绿色，或者红色，或者其他什么。
It was really kind of mind-blowing.
这真是令人兴奋。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I was going to ask, how do we resolve the contradiction between the message to feel our feelings versus to just recognize that the feelings are moving through us as this five-year-old-
我想问，我们如何解决感受我们的感受与仅仅认识到作为这个五岁孩子的感受正在我们身上传递的信息之间的矛盾——
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
gosh, was and is able to do?
天哪，过去和现在能够做什么？
Because I feel like it gets to the heart of a lot of what we hear in the psychological and wellness space, which is feelings are just feelings.
因为我觉得它触及了我们在心理和健康领域听到的很多内容的核心，那就是感觉只是感觉。
They're transient.
它们是短暂的。
They represent all sorts of things, and we can get to the biological underpinnings or the childhood trauma root cause underpinnings, all sorts of things.
它们代表了各种各样的事情，我们可以了解生物学基础或童年创伤的根本原因基础，各种各样的事情。
Genetics, for that matter.
就此而言，遗传学。
Should we feel our feelings in order to best recognize them?
我们应该感受自己的感受才能最好地认识它们吗？
I would imagine, yes.
我想，是的。
Is there any value to suppressing our feelings, or does that tend to just grow the feeling?
压抑我们的感受有什么价值吗？或者这只会加剧我们的感受？
What is known about this from the research literature?
从研究文献中对此有何了解？
Because you see a lot of different opinions about this, but I'd like to know, have there been any experiments where people are placed into a negative or positive emotion, or are experiencing a negative or positive emotion, and then intentionally try to suppress it?
因为对此你看到很多不同的观点，但我想知道，是否有任何实验将人们置于消极或积极的情绪中，或者正在经历消极或积极的情绪，然后有意地试图压抑它？
Has there been any brain imaging-
有没有做过脑部影像检查——
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Yeah, there is
是的，有
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
any measurement of galvanic skin response?
有皮肤电反应的测量吗？
Does the emotion grow or does the emotion shrink?
情绪是增长还是收缩？
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
It tends to grow.
它往往会增长。
There are cultural differences, just to be frank.
坦率地说，存在文化差异。
But in Western culture, suppression tends not to have great outcomes.
但在西方文化中，镇压往往不会产生很好的结果。
Finding ways to reappraise tends to be more helpful.
寻找重新评估的方法往往会更有帮助。
This really gets into, though, for me, the core of my work.
不过，对我来说，这确实是我工作的核心。
Because, for 20 years of my life, I was running a center for emotional intelligence and teaching skills, and I would go around and I would see a lot of resistance.
因为，在我生命的 20 年里，我一直在经营一个情商和教学技能中心，我四处走动，会看到很多阻力。
A lot of resistance.
很多阻力。
Whether it was the hedge fund manager or the superintendent of schools or a parent.
无论是对冲基金经理、学校负责人还是家长。
I've had fathers come up to me, say things like, "Marc, you're so vulnerable.
曾有父亲走过来对我说：“马克，你太脆弱了。
You shared your whole story about being bullied.
您分享了有关被欺负的整个故事。
I would never in my wildest dream ever share with my own son that I was bullied as a kid." And I'm like, "Tell me more," of course.
在我最疯狂的梦想中，我永远不会告诉我自己的儿子，我小时候被欺负过。”当然，我会说“告诉我更多”。
I'm a psychologist.
我是一名心理学家。
And in the end, the guy was afraid that his son would think he was weak.
说到底，这家伙还怕儿子觉得他软弱。
And so we have a mindset about feelings that we have to talk about.
因此，我们对必须谈论的感受有一种心态。
People have feelings about their feelings.
人们对自己的感受有感受。
Sometimes we call those meta emotions or meta feelings.
有时我们称这些为元情感或元感受。
Sometimes it's just that happy is good, anger is bad.
有时候只是高兴是好事，生气是坏事。
It's that simple.
就是这么简单。
My whole recent research is focused on something I call permission to feel.
我最近的整个研究都集中在我称之为允许感受的东西上。
You know a little bit about my own story.
你对我自己的故事有所了解。
I had a pretty rough childhood that included abuse.
我的童年非常艰难，其中包括虐待。
It included a lot of bullying.
其中包括很多欺凌行为。
And I had two parents who loved me, but my mother was a very anxious woman who never had strategies.
我有两个爱我的父母，但我的母亲是一个非常焦虑的女人，从来没有策略。
So, she was always saying, "I'm having a nervous breakdown," and she'd lock herself in her room and she wouldn't come out for a few hours.
所以，她总是说，“我精神崩溃了”，然后她把自己锁在房间里，几个小时不出来。
My father was, as we might call today, the tough guy who was kind of toxically masculine.
正如我们今天所称的那样，我的父亲是一个具有有毒的阳刚之气的硬汉。
"Son, you got to toughen up." He even said to me once...
“儿子，你要坚强起来。”有一次他还对我说...
He's gone now, and we had a good relationship, but I'll never forget, he said, "Son, I used to beat kids up like you."
他现在走了，我们关系很好，但我永远不会忘记，他说，“儿子，我以前也像你一样打孩子。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
He said that?
他这么说？
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
He did.
他做到了。
He thought that was the message that I needed to hear to toughen up.
他认为这是我需要听到的信息来让我坚强起来。
Right?
正确的？
He was doing that through love.
他是通过爱来做到这一点的。
It was not emotionally intelligent parenting, but that was the way he thought.
这不是高情商的养育方式，但他就是这么想的。
And he did love me.
他确实爱我。
He just didn't know how to be a parent in that way.
他只是不知道如何以这种方式成为父母。
And so think about that.
所以想一想。
Bullied, shame, fear, abused, all kinds of stuff going on in my head.
被欺负、羞耻、恐惧、虐待，各种各样的事情在我的脑海里盘旋。
Mom having nervous breakdowns, father, "Toughen up." What happens?
妈妈神经衰弱，爸爸“坚强起来。”会发生什么？
You suppress.
你压制。
You deny.
你否认。
You ignore.
你无视。
You eat.
你吃。
You do all kinds of weird behaviors because you have nowhere to go with your feelings.
你会做出各种奇怪的行为，因为你的感受无处可去。
And I fear that way too many people feel that way right now, and I have good research to show that.
我担心现在有太多人有这种感觉，我有很好的研究可以证明这一点。
You've read my book.
你读过我的书。
You know I had an Uncle Marvin.
你知道我有一个马文叔叔。
He was a middle school teacher who, by some wave of a magic wand, was staying with my family one summer when I was 12.
他是一名中学老师，在我 12 岁那年的一个夏天，神奇的力量让他和我的家人住在一起。
And he noticed something in my facial expression, my body language.
他注意到我的面部表情和肢体语言中的一些东西。
He knew something was off.
他知道有些事情不对劲。
And he was the first adult who sat with me and said, "Hey, Marc, how are you feeling?" And I don't know if it was his facial expression, his body language, his vocal tone, but that was the opener for me.
他是第一个坐在我旁边对我说：“嘿，马克，你感觉怎么样？”我不知道这是否是他的面部表情、肢体语言、语气，但这对我来说是个开场白。
I'm not doing so well.
我做得不太好。
I don't really like life very much.
我其实不太喜欢生活。
I'm scared.
我很害怕。
And he didn't say, "I'm going to have a nervous breakdown," or, "Toughen up." He said, "We're going to get through this.
他并没有说“我要精神崩溃了”或者“坚强起来”。他说：“我们会渡过这个难关的。
I got you.
我找到你了。
I'm with you." And it's really interesting to me because I feel like we're so focused on skill building, which is really important, but I want to take a step back and say, are we giving ourselves, are we giving our colleagues, our partners, our children, the permission to feel?
我和你在一起。”这对我来说真的很有趣，因为我觉得我们如此专注于技能培养，这非常重要，但我想退一步说，我们是否给予自己，我们的同事，我们的合作伙伴，我们的孩子，允许感受？
And I feel like a lot of people don't have that permission.
我觉得很多人没有这个许可。
Now, my research shows, with tens of thousands of people across cultures, that only about a third of adults felt that they had someone when they were young who created the conditions for them to have permission to feel.
现在，我的研究表明，在数万名不同文化背景的人中，只有大约三分之一的成年人认为，他们年轻时有人为他们创造了允许感受的条件。
70% of the people walking around here right now, in our corporations, in our schools, in our homes, 30% felt like they had that.
现在，70% 的人走在这里，在我们的公司、我们的学校、我们的家里，30% 的人感觉他们有这样的感觉。
And then you wonder, what do you think the characteristics are of these people?
然后你想知道，你认为这些人有什么特点？
The characteristics of the Uncle Marvins or Aunt Marias, or the colleague at work, by the way.
顺便说一句，马文斯叔叔或玛丽亚斯阿姨，或工作中的同事的特征。
This also works in the adult workforce.
这也适用于成年劳动力。
You can have an emotion mentor or a feelings coach at work.
你可以在工作中拥有一位情感导师或情感教练。
There's three characteristics.
有三个特点。
Do you want to take a guess?
你想猜猜看吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm guessing empathically attuned.
我猜是有同理心的。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Although, for those that know, empathy involves a bunch of subcategories, so I want to acknowledge that.
不过，对于那些知道的人来说，同理心涉及很多子类别，所以我想承认这一点。
Empathically attuned.
具有同理心。
I'm guessing that they have, themselves, some high emotional intelligence.
我猜他们本身就有很高的情商。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And the third is, gosh, my hope is that there'd be a high situational awareness.
第三，天哪，我希望能够有高度的态势感知能力。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
Because your uncle needed to see something subtle in your facial expression, or maybe not so subtle-
因为你叔叔需要从你的面部表情中看出一些微妙的东西，或者也许不那么微妙——
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
but everyone else was missing it.
但其他人都错过了。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But to be able to detect that there was something that really need...
但要能够发现确实有一些东西需要......
It was like a silent cry for help.
这就像无声的求救声。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
You're really nuanced, which is, that's why you're a scientist, too.
你真的很细致，这就是为什么你也是一名科学家。
The three broad characteristics, the first one that shows up cross-culturally, non-judgmental.
三大特征，第一个特征表现出跨文化、非评判性。
Like when we think about the people who gave us permission to feel, they just had no judgment.
就像当我们想到那些允许我们感受的人时，他们只是没有判断力。
They let me be who I can be or who I am.
他们让我成为我能成为的人或我是谁。
The second is empathic and kind of coupled with compassionate, which is kind of the different form of empathy.
第二种是同理心，有点与同情心相结合，这是同理心的不同形式。
The third, primarily, is active listening.
第三，主要是积极倾听。
People want to be around people who don't judge them, who listen actively, and show that they care.
人们希望身边的人不会评判他们、积极倾听并表现出他们的关心。
It's that simple.
就是这么简单。
And I'll tell you, it's really interesting to me because I do a lot of public speaking, and often, my new strategy is I do surveys where I'm going to be presenting, so I can present the audience themselves with their data.
我会告诉你，这对我来说真的很有趣，因为我做了很多公开演讲，而且通常，我的新策略是我在要演讲的地方进行调查，这样我就可以向观众展示他们的数据。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
And so I'm giving this speech to a bunch of adult parents, high school parents.
所以我要向一群成年家长、高中家长发表这次演讲。
And I'm showing the data from them.
我正在展示他们的数据。
They filled out the survey.
他们填写了调查表。
Non-judgmental, active listening, empathy, compassion.
不评判、积极倾听、同理心、同情心。
And I show, just like my national study, a third of you said yes, two thirds of you said no. So this mom, and she just impulsively jumps out of her seat.
我表明，就像我的全国性研究一样，三分之一的人说是，三分之二的人说不。所以这位妈妈，她只是冲动地从座位上跳了起来。
She's like, "I'm having an epiphany." I'm like, "Okay." And she's like, "I know, I'm certain that my daughter has an Uncle Marvin.
她就像是，“我顿悟了。”我说：“好吧。”她说：“我知道，我确信我女儿有一个马文叔叔。
I know it.
我知道。
And I'm also certain that my son doesn't.
我也确信我的儿子不会。
And you know something, Marc?
你知道一些事情吗，马克？
I am leaving your presentation today, and I am finding my son his Uncle Marvin." I'm like, "Lady, it could be you." And it was like-
今天我要离开你的演讲，我正在寻找我儿子的马文叔叔。”我说：“女士，可能是你。”它就像——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
It's sort of interesting.
这有点有趣。
It's kind of going right by her that-
有点像从她身边走过——
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
It's like outsourcing.
这就像外包。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
There's your karate teacher, there's your feelings mentor.
这是你的空手道老师，这是你的感情导师。
And it's interesting to me, and I push on this in my research now.
这对我来说很有趣，我现在在我的研究中推动这一点。
What is the resistance?
阻力是什么？
What are people so afraid of?
人们如此害怕什么？
They're so afraid of feelings, their own and their children's or their partner's.
他们非常害怕自己的感情、孩子的感情或伴侣的感情。
And so I ask, I push on this, and what's really interesting and sad to me is that adults today, the two barriers, now I'm going to push you again.
所以我问，我推动这一点，对我来说真正有趣和悲伤的是，今天的成年人，这两个障碍，现在我要再次推动你们。
What do you think the two things that get in the way of giving other people permission to feel?
你认为阻碍他人感受的两件事是什么？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This is actually where my next question was going, so I'll just ask the question in the form of an answer.
这实际上是我的下一个问题的所在，所以我只会以答案的形式提出问题。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is this like Jeopardy!?
这就像危险吗！？
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
There you go.
就这样吧。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I guess that's how you do...
我想你就是这样做的...
Or no, it's the other way around in Jeopardy!.
或者不，在《危险边缘》中情况恰恰相反！
Sorry.
对不起。
You can see how many episodes of Jeopardy!
您可以查看《危险边缘》有多少集！
I've watched.
我看过。
That if people don't have adequate emotional boundaries, and they are maybe even too empathically attuned, that someone they care about experiencing anger or sadness or frustration, maybe even with them, would shift their own emotions, and not make them able to be available with the three qualities that you listed off before, in particular non-judgment.
如果人们没有足够的情感界限，而且他们甚至可能过于共情，那么他们关心的人经历愤怒、悲伤或沮丧，甚至可能与他们在一起，也会改变自己的情绪，并且无法让他们具备你之前列出的三种品质，特别是不评判。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because now it's personal.
因为现在它是个人的。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And so it would undermine the process.
因此这会破坏这一进程。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
You're right there.
你就在那里。
The first one, though, is just a really interesting one, just time.
不过，第一个非常有趣，只是时间。
People, "I don't have the time."
人们说：“我没有时间。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hmm.
嗯。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
You don't have the time to be non-judgmental?
你没有时间不加评判吗？
Can you talk to me about that one, please?
你能和我谈谈那件事吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's actually the case that we don't have the time to be judgmental.
事实上，我们没有时间去评判。
It's far too energetically costly.
它的能源成本太高了。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
I agree.
我同意。
The second really goes back to the skills.
第二个真正回到技能。
So I've had parents say things like, "I'm afraid to ask my child how they're feeling because I'm not going to be able to handle it." Think about that for a minute.
所以我听到父母这样说：“我不敢问我的孩子他们的感受如何，因为我无法处理它。”想一想。
"I'm not going to be able to handle it." So you'd rather your son or daughter suppress their fears or whatever they're feeling because you haven't developed the skills that you need to help co-regulate and support them.
“我应付不了。”所以你宁愿你的儿子或女儿抑制他们的恐惧或任何他们的感受，因为你还没有发展出帮助共同监管和支持他们所需的技能。
This is, again, going back to my mission, vision, is that we need a world where everyone gets an emotion education.
这又回到了我的使命和愿景，那就是我们需要一个每个人都能接受情感教育的世界。
Preschool to high school, and it's got to continue in college, and it's got to continue in the workforce, and it's got to continue as we grow older because as a 54-year-old person right now who leads a large group of people, COVID hits, I had a complete meltdown.
从学前班到高中，在大学里也必须继续，在职场上也必须继续，而且随着年龄的增长，这种情况也必须继续下去，因为作为一个现在领导一大群人的 54 岁的人，新冠病毒来袭，我彻底崩溃了。
I didn't know how to lead during COVID.
我不知道在新冠疫情期间如何领导。
I was trying to figure it out, doing Zoom meetings and crazy stuff.
我试图弄清楚这一点，通过 Zoom 会议和疯狂的事情。
And then my mother-in-law got stuck with me, and that was a real kind of wake-up call in terms of relationship building.
然后我的婆婆就和我在一起了，这对建立关系来说是一个真正的警钟。
It was really rough for me, actually.
事实上，这对我来说真的很艰难。
She came for a wedding.
她是来参加婚礼的。
One of my colleagues got married on March 3rd of 2020.
我的一位同事于2020年3月3日结婚了。
Well, my mother-in-law is from Panama, and so just so you know, all flights to Panama got canceled by March 13th, and they didn't open until September.
嗯，我的岳母来自巴拿马，所以你知道，所有飞往巴拿马的航班在 3 月 13 日之前都被取消了，直到 9 月份才开通。
So we had this 81-year-old lovely, lovely woman, but it's a lot for your mother-in-law to live with you for eight months.
所以我们有一个81岁的可爱的、可爱的女人，但是对于你的婆婆来说，和你一起生活八个月已经很了不起了。
One little quick side story for this.
对此有一个简短的小故事。
I think it's relevant.
我认为这是相关的。
So it was getting really...
所以事情变得真的...
I'm working from home.
我在家工作。
My mother-in-law was there.
我的岳母也在场。
She wants me to make her a cappuccino every morning, which I liked to do for the first week, but after the fourth month, learn how to use the machine.
她要我每天早上给她做一杯卡布奇诺，第一周我喜欢这样做，但第四个月后，学习如何使用机器。
And I don't want to do it myself.
而且我不想自己做。
I'm afraid of the machine.
我害怕机器。
I'm like-
我就像-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sorry.
抱歉。
I didn't mean to laugh out loud.
我本来不想笑出声来的。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
That's all right.
没关系。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Those cappuccino machines can be scary.
那些卡布奇诺机器可能很可怕。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
They can be.
他们可以。
But growth mindset, right?
但成长型思维，对吗？
"Watch me, I'll help you do it." "No, I want you to make the coffee." I'm like, "You got to make your own coffee.
“看着我，我帮你做。” “不，我要你去煮咖啡。”我说：“你必须自己煮咖啡。
I told you, I don't like people in the morning.
我告诉过你了，我不喜欢早上的人。
You got to make your own coffee." Anyhow, one night we're at dinner, and she looks at me, she speaks Spanish, I speak Spanish, and so she said, in Spanish, "Are you really the director of the Center for Emotional Intelligence?" And I looked at her and I'm like, "Not tonight.
你必须自己煮咖啡。”不管怎样，有一天晚上我们吃晚饭时，她看着我，她说西班牙语，我说西班牙语，所以她用西班牙语说：“你真的是情商中心主任吗？”我看着她，心想：“今晚不行。
Not tonight." We're going down.
今晚不行。”我们要下去了。
And it was a mess.
场面一片混乱。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, I'm sorry.
哦，对不起。
I didn't mean to laugh.
我不是故意笑的。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
No, that's all right.
不，没关系。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I laughed before you said it was a mess.
在你说这是一团糟之前我笑了。
Your impression of the question, maybe it drew to mind some experiences of mine.
你对这个问题的印象，也许让我想起了我的一些经历。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
And there I was, like, yes, my day job is I run a center for emotional intelligence, but I'm a human being who had strong emotions, and I didn't have the strategies.
我就在那里，是的，我的日常工作是管理一个情商中心，但我是一个有强烈情绪的人，而且我没有策略。
And I needed to cultivate a whole new set of regulation strategies to deal with that new aspect of my life.
我需要培养一套全新的监管策略来应对我生活中的新方面。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In thinking about people that can really help us by asking us the right questions, or in thinking about how we can ask people the right questions to really help them and us gain an understanding of what they're experiencing.
思考那些可以通过向我们提出正确的问题来真正帮助我们的人，或者思考我们如何向人们提出正确的问题来真正帮助他们，并且我们了解他们正在经历的事情。
I'm recalling numerous instances in my life where there seemed to be the requirement for an excuse, like an activity excuse.
我回想起生活中的许多例子，似乎需要一个借口，比如活动借口。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I currently have a very good relationship with my father, but I remember when there was a time where we had to talk about science or watches as an entry point to-
我目前和父亲的关系非常好，但我记得有一段时间我们必须谈论科学或手表作为切入点——
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Sure
当然可以
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
any conversation, let alone about emotions.
任何谈话，更不用说情感了。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
And he's done a lot of work.
他做了很多工作。
I've done a lot of work.
我已经做了很多工作。
And I like to think we are much further down the road.
我认为我们在这条路上还走得更远。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Great.
太棒了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We enjoy a very close relationship as a consequence of that work, in part.
我们之间的关系非常密切，部分原因是这项工作的结果。
But I think what you're describing really makes me realize that no matter who anybody is or what their age or what their background, that as human beings, we don't just need permission, but we really should think about just having a conversation about how others feel.
但我认为你所描述的确实让我意识到，无论任何人是谁，无论他们的年龄或背景如何，作为人类，我们不仅需要许可，而且我们真的应该考虑就他人的感受进行对话。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
100%.
100%。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
As opposed to making an activity a prerequisite for that conversation.
而不是将某项活动作为对话的先决条件。
And as I say this, I realize some people are probably thinking, "Oh, boy.
当我这么说时，我意识到有些人可能会想，“哦，天哪。
Okay, so we're just going to sit around and talk about our feelings." But my short response to that is yes, because when you don't do that, then I can say from experience, then pretty soon you're not participating in those activities with that person.
好吧，那我们就坐下来谈谈我们的感受吧。”但我对此的简短回答是肯定的，因为当你不这样做时，我可以根据经验说，那么很快你就不会与那个人一起参加这些活动。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And potentially with anybody.
并可能与任何人。
I'm not saying that people become so unpleasant to themselves and others that they don't have any friends.
我并不是说人们对自己和他人变得如此不愉快以至于他们没有朋友。
Okay, that's an extreme case.
好吧，这是一个极端的例子。
But what I hear in the backdrop of everything you're saying is that it's not just about an education, it's really about a practice of giving ourselves and others permission to simply have a conversation about what one is feeling as an exercise for both people to be able to explore that in the correct way, and there is a correct way.
但在你所说的一切背景下，我听到的是，这不仅仅是一种教育，它实际上是一种允许我们自己和他人简单地谈论一个人的感受的实践，作为一种练习，让双方能够以正确的方式探索它，并且有一个正确的方法。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Well, yeah.
嗯，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And you've described the ruler approach as one correct way.
您已经将标尺方法描述为一种正确的方法。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
There are strategies.
有策略。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Correctness is a tricky term.
正确性是一个棘手的术语。
It's a game.
这是一场游戏。
No matter what, it's going to be a game because you can't predict how people will respond.
无论如何，这都将是一场游戏，因为你无法预测人们会如何反应。
But I couldn't agree with you more.
但我非常同意你的观点。
I'll give you another example.
我再举一个例子。
My father, who, like you, we ended up having an excellent relationship.
我的父亲，和你一样，我们最终建立了良好的关系。
My mom died when I was young, and he remarried.
我很小的时候我妈妈就去世了，他再婚了。
And he had moved to Upstate New York, and he had this lovely wife.
他搬到了纽约州北部，他有一位可爱的妻子。
And she called me about two years after they were married, and she's like, "Marc, I can't take it anymore.
他们结婚大约两年后，她打电话给我，她说：“马克，我再也受不了了。
Your father is driving me out of my mind." I'm like, "What do you mean?" "He's angry all the time.
你父亲快把我逼疯了。”我说：“你什么意思？” “他一直很生气。
He's just really making me miserable." And she's like, "I think I might have to leave him." And I'm thinking to myself, "Oh, my goodness.
他真的让我很痛苦。”她说，“我想我可能不得不离开他。”我心里想：“哦，天哪。
He's older, and if she leaves him, he's going to want to move in with me." So, road trip.
他年纪大了，如果她离开他，他就会想搬来和我一起住。”那么，公路旅行。
And so, I went on a road trip, took my father out to the local coffee shop.
于是，我开始了一次公路旅行，带我父亲去了当地的咖啡店。
We're sitting down.
我们坐下来。
"I can't take it anymore." This is what he's telling me.
“我再也受不了了。”这就是他告诉我的。
"I can't take it anymore." I'm like, "Dad, tell me more." "I can't take it anymore." I'm like, "That's not enough information, Dad.
“我再也受不了了。”我说：“爸爸，告诉我更多吧。” “我再也受不了了。”我想，“这还不够，爸爸。
What can't you take anymore?" In the end, what I learned was that my father has three sons.
什么是你不能再承受的？”最后我得知，我的父亲有三个儿子。
All of us have doctorates.
我们所有人都有博士学位。
We're all independent.
我们都是独立的。
We're all successful.
我们都成功了。
Her children were having struggles, and she was needing to babysit her grandchildren.
她的孩子们正在挣扎，而她需要照顾她的孙子们。
My father didn't like that.
我父亲不喜欢这样。
"My sons are all taking care of themselves." He's not realizing this, but what he's saying is, "I don't like the idea of you spending so much time with these grandkids because I want your attention." Now, why do I tell you that?
“我的儿子们都照顾好自己。”他没有意识到这一点，但他想说的是，“我不喜欢你花这么多时间和这些孙子们在一起，因为我想要你的注意力。”现在，我为什么要告诉你这些？
Because after my father and I spoke for about a half hour about this, I said, "Dad, it sounds like you're jealous." He's like, "What do you mean I'm jealous?" I said, "Well, you're upset that Jane, your wife, wants to spend more time with the grandkids, and that's not time with you." In my emotion lexicon, I didn't use that term, that's jealousy.
因为我和父亲就这件事谈了大约半个小时后，我说：“爸爸，听起来你很嫉妒。”他说：“你说我嫉妒是什么意思？”我说：“好吧，你的妻子简想要花更多的时间陪伴孙子们，而那不是你的时间，这让你感到不安。”在我的情感词典中，我没有使用这个词，那就是嫉妒。
"I can't believe you're telling me I'm jealous." I'm like, "I'm not telling you you're jealous.
“我不敢相信你竟然告诉我我嫉妒了。”我想，“我不是告诉你你嫉妒。
You're telling me you're jealous.
你告诉我你嫉妒了。
I'm just giving you the concept." He starts crying, hysterical crying, because he had awareness for the first time of his emotional experience.
我只是给你这个概念。”他开始哭泣，歇斯底里的哭泣，因为他第一次意识到自己的情感体验。
He was so emotionally illiterate.
他在感情上真是个文盲。
He just didn't know what he was feeling, and he was just acting out.
他只是不知道自己的感受是什么，他只是在表演。
Once he sat down and understood the experience of wife wants to be with child because they need support.
一旦他坐下来，就理解了妻子想要生孩子的经历，因为他们需要支持。
I'm not happy with that because I don't know what to do with myself when she's spending time with the grandkids.
我对此并不满意，因为当她和孙子们在一起时，我不知道该怎么办。
It's jealousy.
这是嫉妒。
All of a sudden, we had a pathway to helping him regulate.
突然间，我们有了一条帮助他调节的途径。
Now, I'll finish the story by saying about two months later, Jane, she calls me.
现在，我将在大约两个月后说，简，她打电话给我来结束这个故事。
She's like, "Marc, I don't know what you did at that coffee shop, but your father's a changed man." And I don't take all the credit.
她说，“马克，我不知道你在那家咖啡店做了什么，但你父亲已经变了。”我并没有把所有的功劳都揽在自己身上。
Take some credit.
接受一些信任。
But it just shows you the power of emotional self-awareness.
但这只是向你展示了情感自我意识的力量。
Once you really know how you're feeling, it can be liberating, and then you can figure out what you need to do with those feelings.
一旦你真正了解自己的感受，你就会得到解放，然后你就能弄清楚你需要如何处理这些感受。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm letting that really sink in because I think these days we hear a lot about therapy, fortunately, in my opinion.
我让这一点真正深入人心，因为我认为这些天我们听到了很多关于治疗的内容，幸运的是，在我看来。
I think, and I'm going to get the numbers only crudely right, but they're certainly in the right direction and amplitude.
我认为，我只会粗略地得到这些数字，但它们的方向和幅度肯定是正确的。
There was a survey done, I believe, at Stanford, asking students how willing they would be to seek therapy if they were dealing with an emotionally trying time, and this was in the, I think, early and mid-'90s, and the numbers that came back were very low, somewhere in the teens or 20% of students polled.
我相信，斯坦福大学曾做过一项调查，询问学生们，如果他们正在经历情感上的困难时期，他们是否愿意寻求治疗，我认为这是在 90 年代初和中期，而回来的人数非常低，大约在十几岁或接受调查的学生的 20% 左右。
Whereas nowadays it's in excess of 80 or 90%.
而现在这个比例已经超过80%或90%。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Very high.
非常高。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
And I think that's representative of a lot of-
我认为这代表了很多——
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Actually, can I give you another example of this?
实际上，我可以再举一个例子吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Please.
请。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
So here I am, a professor at Yale, teaching courses on emotional intelligence.
我是耶鲁大学的教授，教授情商课程。
Now, I should just let you know there's resistance oftentimes, and my students are fantastic in general.
现在，我应该让你知道经常会遇到阻力，而我的学生总的来说都很棒。
But there's a resistance to wanting to learn about emotional intelligence.
但想要了解情商却存在阻力。
What they want to do, in general, is get an A in my course, and they want to memorize like, "Oh, so the theory was written in 1990 by Mayer and Salovey."
一般来说，他们想要做的是在我的课程中获得 A，并且他们想要记住，“哦，这个理论是 Mayer 和 Salovey 在 1990 年写的。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This is a pre-med course?
这是医学预科课程？
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
No.
不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
This is general-
这是一般情况——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That was a joke against pre-meds
这是针对医学预科的一个笑话
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
...
...
undergrad.
本科生。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Love the pre-meds, but they-
喜欢预科课程，但是他们——
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Well, I have stories-
嗯，我有故事——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
they're very grade conscious.
他们非常注重等级。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
I have stories about that, too.
我也有这方面的故事。
And so I say, "No, this is about you developing the skills.
所以我说，“不，这是关于你发展技能的。
You're going to think really critically about, and part of the essays you're going to write are going to be your action plans for building your own emotional intelligence." "I don't want to do that.
你将真正批判性地思考，你要写的文章的一部分将是你建立自己的情商的行动计划。” “我不想那样做。
I want to get the test and get the A." After a month, I get them bought in.
我想参加考试并获得 A。”一个月后，我就把它们买下来了。
Interestingly, though, because I make my courses into research, and I ask them to fill out surveys, how they're feeling every class.
但有趣的是，因为我把我的课程变成了研究，我要求他们填写调查问卷，了解他们每堂课的感受如何。
Number one emotion, stressed.
第一种情绪是压力。
Everybody's stressed.
大家压力都很大啊
I'm thinking to myself, "Stressed out?
我心里想：“压力大吗？
You've got a good life here." But nevertheless, stressed.
你在这里过着美好的生活。”但尽管如此，还是有压力。
I have to have empathy.
我必须有同理心。
I get it.
我得到它。
But I decided that I really had a hard time.
但我决定我真的很难过。
Remember, I defined stress as having too many demands and not enough resources.
请记住，我将压力定义为需求太多而资源不足。
I didn't feel like that was the actual feeling.
我不觉得那是真实的感觉。
Now, who am I to judge?
现在，我该评判谁？
But one way to get better at it was to have my students do journaling.
但提高水平的一种方法是让我的学生写日记。
When you're stressed, write about it.
当你有压力的时候，写下来。
What's on your mind?
你在想什么？
What are you thinking about?
你在想什么？
Take a guess what the number one emotion was after we did the qualitative analysis.
在我们进行定性分析后，猜猜排名第一的情绪是什么。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Of journaling about stress?
写关于压力的日记？
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
What they were really feeling.
他们真正的感受是什么。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Fear.
恐惧。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Okay.
好的。
Envy.
嫉妒。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, interesting.
哦，有趣。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Envy.
羡慕。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Envy.
羡慕。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Your father is richer than my father.
你父亲比我父亲有钱。
Your mother is more connected than my mother.
你妈妈比我妈妈更有人脉关系。
You've got better hips.
你的臀部更好了。
You've got better lips.
你的嘴唇比较好。
It was endless social comparisons.
这是无休止的社会比较。
Right?
正确的？
And so envy, right, is wanting what someone else has.
所以嫉妒，对，就是想要别人拥有的东西。
Anxiety is about uncertainty.
焦虑是关于不确定性。
Stress is about too many demands, not enough resources.
压力来自于太多的需求，而没有足够的资源。
And so here I was having deeper knowledge of what was the underlying feeling or emotion that they were having, which was envy, not stress.
因此，在这里我对他们所拥有的潜在感觉或情绪有了更深入的了解，这是嫉妒，而不是压力。
And so I had a conversation with the counseling department, and I made a joke about it, and I was like, "What's our university's envy reduction program?" It wasn't the most popular conversation.
所以我和咨询部门进行了交谈，我开了个玩笑，我想，“我们大学的减少嫉妒计划是什么？”这不是最受欢迎的谈话。
And I just think it's interesting to think about it in terms of helping people to learn what to do with their emotions.
我只是认为，从帮助人们学习如何处理自己的情绪的角度思考这一点很有趣。
Right now, there's a mindfulness craze.
现在，有一种正念热潮。
Everyone's doing mindfulness, and I do mindfulness, and I appreciate mindfulness.
每个人都在做正念，我也在做正念，我也欣赏正念。
But let me tell you, when you're feeling chronic envy, doing breathing exercises is not going to decrease the envy.
但让我告诉你，当你感到长期嫉妒时，做呼吸练习并不能减少嫉妒。
You're going to have to work on your construction in your mind of your relationships with people.
你必须在你的头脑中努力构建你与人的关系。
And so I just feel so strongly that we help people pause a little bit, reflect a little bit, think about how they're feeling as a pathway to just having wellbeing.
所以我强烈地感觉到，我们应该帮助人们停下来，反思一下，思考他们的感受，以此作为获得幸福的途径。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Your joke about envy reduction is something I take very seriously.
我非常重视你关于减少嫉妒的笑话。
We did a four-episode series with Dr. Paul Conti, who's a world expert in psychiatry.
我们与世界精神病学专家保罗·孔蒂博士合作制作了一个四集的系列节目。
He's a psychiatrist.
他是一名精神科医生。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And among the very, very best psychiatrists in the world by many accounts.
从许多方面来看，他都是世界上最优秀的精神科医生之一。
And he discussed during that series, but also on other podcasts he's appeared in, such as my friend Lex Fridman's podcast, that envy is actually at the root of much of the evil in the world.
他在该系列节目中以及他参加过的其他播客中都讨论过，比如我朋友莱克斯·弗里德曼的播客，嫉妒实际上是世界上许多邪恶的根源。
Small scale evil, large scale evil-
小规模的邪恶，大规模的邪恶——
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and a lot of the despair that people feel.
以及人们感受到的很多绝望。
And I think it's a word that isn't discussed enough, because the sound of it is kind of gross, right?
我认为这个词还没有得到足够的讨论，因为它的发音有点恶心，对吧？
Envious, envy.
羡慕，羡慕。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Nobody wants to be associated with it.
没有人愿意与之扯上关系。
But fortunately, Dr. Conti described it as a natural human emotion in some cases.
但幸运的是，康蒂博士在某些情况下将其描述为人类的自然情感。
But I had no idea, and I don't know if he knows, but maybe he does through his clinical work, but I'll certainly pass along what you just said to him, that so much of the stress that I have to imagine good people, and these students are, after all, I imagine-
但我不知道，我也不知道他是否知道，但也许他通过他的临床工作知道，但我一定会转达你刚才对他说的话，我必须想象好人的压力如此之大，而这些学生毕竟是我想象的——
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
They're amazing
他们太棒了
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
good people.
好人。
They're not evil.
他们并不邪恶。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Very few.
很少。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Not characterologically evil, let's hope, are experiencing envy.
我们希望，他们的性格不是邪恶的，他们正在经历嫉妒。
The wish to have more of what somebody else has, maybe something specific, which, of course, gets to these more common phrases of people feeling that they are not enough.
想要拥有更多别人拥有的东西，也许是一些特定的东西，这当然会导致人们感觉自己还不够的这些更常见的短语。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Which is going back to contentment.
这又回到了满足。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Right.
正确的。
Actually, how I didn't draw the arrow.
其实我怎么没画箭头呢。
Now, I thought I drew the arrow between contentment and envy.
现在，我想我在满足和嫉妒之间划出了箭头。
Right.
正确的。
So if one wants to combat envy, you can imagine that a program to combat envy might be perceived, if one didn't understand it, as a calling for people to just be content with less.
因此，如果一个人想要对抗嫉妒，你可以想象，如果一个人不理解一项对抗嫉妒的计划，那么它可能会被视为呼吁人们满足于更少的东西。
Which is not what we want, right?
这不是我们想要的，对吗？
We want ambitious people in the world.
我们需要世界上有雄心壮志的人。
We want people aspiring.
我们希望人们有抱负。
We want people to have growth mindset, and yet-
我们希望人们拥有成长心态，但是——
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
You can be contented
你可以心满意足
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
we don't want people to be stressed and have a pervasive feeling of envy inside either.
我们不希望人们有压力并且内心普遍存在嫉妒感。
So how would you make inroads into envy?
那么，你会如何引起嫉妒呢？
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Well, I think, again, like all emotions, envy is not a bad emotion.
嗯，我想，就像所有的情绪一样，嫉妒并不是一种坏情绪。
The way I think about emotions as being, and when we need to get help with our emotions is when, if it's an unpleasant one, it's intense and long duration Right, momentary envy.
我认为情绪存在的方式是，当我们需要寻求情绪帮助时，如果它是一种不愉快的情绪，那么它是强烈且持续时间较长的，对的，短暂的嫉妒。
I get envious all the time.
我每时每刻都感到羡慕。
I get envy.
我很羡慕。
I watched TED Talks and I'm like, "Oh, that timing was amazing." And I'm like, "I'm going to try that out." So I use that envy of someone else's skill as a way to grow.
我看了 TED 演讲，心想，“哦，这个时机真是太棒了。”我想，“我要尝试一下。”所以我利用对其他人技能的嫉妒作为成长的一种方式。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
How does that differ, sorry to turn your own work back on you-
这有什么不同，抱歉把你自己的工作重新交给你了-
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
That's okay
没关系
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
from admiration or inspiration?
来自钦佩还是灵感？
Like, wow, they, like the-
就像，哇，他们，就像-
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Yeah, that's what I'm getting at.
是的，这就是我的意思。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
So that's the difference between the envy that leans toward admiration versus the envy, like what you're referring to, that leads to resentment.
这就是倾向于钦佩的嫉妒与导致怨恨的嫉妒之间的区别，就像你所指的那样。
Right?
正确的？
It's if I hate you because you have what I want.
如果我恨你，因为你拥有我想要的东西。
Now we're talking pathological envy, potentially.
现在我们正在谈论潜在的病态嫉妒。
And so that's the self-awareness piece.
这就是自我意识的部分。
That's the part of really getting that differentiation of emotion, that granularity.
这就是真正获得情感差异和粒度的部分。
Because again, it's like anger.
因为这又像愤怒。
It's not a bad emotion.
这不是一种坏情绪。
Anger's okay.
愤怒没关系。
There's reasons to be angry in the world.
世界上有愤怒的理由。
When we get treated unfairly, we should be angry.
当我们受到不公平的对待时，我们应该生气。
It doesn't mean that we have to be dysregulated, right?
这并不意味着我们必须失去监管，对吧？
There's an assumption that we make that when we experience unpleasant, strong emotions like anxiety or anger, that we're going to be dysregulated.
我们有一个假设，当我们经历不愉快的、强烈的情绪，如焦虑或愤怒时，我们就会失调。
I have a whole new relationship with my anxiety.
我与焦虑有了全新的关系。
Very different relationship.
非常不同的关系。
I mean, I spent years working on it.
我的意思是，我花了很多年的时间来研究它。
I notice it, and I'm like, "Hi, anxiety.
我注意到了这一点，然后我就想，“嗨，焦虑。
How you doing today?" And then it's okay.
今天过得怎么样？”然后就没事了。
I can even be here with you or giving a speech or teaching, have that anxiety come in and not allow it to have power over me.
我什至可以和你们在一起，或者发表演讲或教学，让焦虑进来，而不让它控制我。
Because I can observe it, I can welcome it, and then if it's in the way, I can say, "You know what?
因为我可以观察它，我可以欢迎它，然后如果它妨碍了我，我可以说，“你知道吗？
Anxiety, you're going to go back there for a little while." Or you know, Mark, sometimes when I give speeches, it's the same speech, right?
着急，你先回去一段时间吧。”或者你知道，马克，有时当我发表演讲时，都是同一个演讲，对吗？
Redundant.
多余的。
And it's like, "I can't believe I have to talk about this again." And then I'll look at the audience and I'm like, "It's their first time." And it's like all of a sudden, my despair turns into optimism and hope.
就像，“我不敢相信我必须再次谈论这个。”然后我会看着观众，我会说，“这是他们第一次。”突然之间，我的绝望变成了乐观和希望。
That's all regulation.
这就是所有的监管。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Conflict resolution is something that I think a lot about in any situation where emotions are discussed.
在任何讨论情绪的情况下，我都会经常思考解决冲突的问题。
And it brings me back to this earlier situation you were talking about, where this woman said that she was going to find her child somebody to help him, to intervene, and you were thinking, "Well, why not you?"
这让我回到了你刚才提到的这个情况，这个女人说她要给她的孩子找一个人来帮助他，进行干预，而你在想，“好吧，为什么你不呢？”
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
His feelings mentor.
他的感情导师。
She was going to go buy his feelings mentor.
她要去买他的感情导师。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Exactly.
确切地。
And now there's a whole field of feelings mentors cropping up.
现在，情感导师出现了。
That actually wouldn't be such a bad thing.
这其实也不是什么坏事。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Hey, that's another one of my goals, so.
嘿，这是我的另一个目标，所以。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That wouldn't be such a bad thing.
那也不是什么坏事。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Say it louder.
大声点说。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I like that goal.
我喜欢那个进球。
So when we were talking about that, one of the things that surfaced was this notion that some people have a natural empathic attunement, or the emotion that the other person is feeling is a negative one, and it's about us, or about them, and as a consequence, we're not able to really be present to help the person the way that you helped your dad.
因此，当我们谈论这个问题时，出现的一件事是这样一种观念，即有些人有一种天生的共情协调，或者对方感受到的情绪是消极的，这与我们或他们有关，因此，我们无法像你帮助你父亲那样真正在场帮助这个人。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
He was frustrated with his wife.
他对他的妻子感到沮丧。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Had he been frustrated with you, it might be a little bit more challenging to say, "Hey, well, Dad, maybe what you're experiencing in terms of your frustration with me is actually blank."
如果他对你感到沮丧，那么说“嘿，好吧，爸爸，也许你对我感到沮丧时所经历的实际上是一片空白”可能会更具挑战性。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Yeah, for sure.
是的，当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because you're now in a tether with them.
因为你现在已经被他们束缚住了。
So to what extent is empathic attunement a positive trait?
那么，共情协调在多大程度上是一种积极特征呢？
Are there people who are better at turning it off or directing it in appropriate ways than others?
是否有人比其他人更擅长关闭它或以适当的方式引导它？
In a previous podcast that I did recently, somebody sitting right there in that chair told me, and I believe them, that I am codependent.
在我最近做的一个播客中，坐在那张椅子上的某人告诉我，我相信他们，我是相互依赖的。
It's the first time anyone's-
这是第一次有人——
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
ever called me that.
曾经这么叫过我。
Codependent.
相互依赖。
She defined it, she spelled it out, and it, in a very parsimonious way, explained a huge array of challenges that I've experienced, to the point where I've been learning more about codependence.
她定义了它，她阐明了它，并且以一种非常简约的方式解释了我所经历的一系列巨大挑战，以至于我对相互依赖有了更多的了解。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
All right.
好吧。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Not easy for me to say, even now.
即使现在，我也很难说。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
We're all interdependent.
我们都是相互依存的。
I don't know about you.
我不了解你。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Interdependent, yeah.
相互依存，是的。
Certainly depending on others is important, but certain patterns fall well under the umbrella of codependency.
当然，依赖他人很重要，但某些模式完全属于相互依赖的范畴。
So I was like, "Okay," and even now I'm uncomfortable talking about, which is part of the reason I'm trying to desensitize myself-
所以我就说，“好吧，”即使现在谈论这些我也感到不舒服，这也是我试图让自己变得不敏感的部分原因——
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Okay
好的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
to the word itself, let alone drill into the process of getting through it.
对于这个词本身，更不用说深入研究它的过程了。
So the point being that if our emotions are so strongly tethered to others, we see that as empathy, we label that typically as positive, but it really diminishes our ability to be there for people if their emotions are negative and about us.
因此，关键是，如果我们的情绪与他人如此紧密地联系在一起，我们就会将其视为同理心，我们通常将其标记为积极的，但如果他们的情绪是消极的并且是关于我们的，那么这确实会削弱我们为他人提供帮助的能力。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
I disagree.
我不同意。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay, great.
好的，太好了。
Great.
伟大的。
That's fantastic.
太棒了。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Because that's empathy without emotional intelligence.
因为那是没有情商的同理心。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
And so I work with a lot of doctors.
所以我和很多医生一起工作。
I've done quite a bit of work with the cancer hospital at Yale.
我在耶鲁大学癌症医院做了很多工作。
It's called Smilow.
它的名字叫斯米洛。
And doctors have been taught from early on, leave your empathy at the door.
医生从很早起就被教导，把同理心留在门口。
And I challenge that.
我对此提出质疑。
When you're a patient with cancer, knowing that you may pass, the last thing you want is an unempathic doctor, right?
当你是一名癌症患者，知道自己可能会痊愈时，你最不想要的就是一位冷漠的医生，对吧？
You want a relationship with someone who's treating you.
您希望与治疗您的人建立关系。
And the assumption is that you get lost in your empathy.
假设你迷失在同理心中。
And people have written about that, and it's true.
人们已经写过这件事，这是真的。
There is overzealous empathy.
有过度热心的同理心。
You can have compassion fatigue.
你可能会产生同情疲劳。
But again, it's in the absence of emotional intelligence.
但同样，这是在缺乏情商的情况下发生的。
What do I mean?
我是什么意思？
Well, part of emotional intelligence is regulation.
嗯，情商的一部分是调节。
And so if I see my work as a cancer doctor, as helping people have the best last few months of their lives, that's a really interesting way to think about it.
因此，如果我将我作为一名癌症医生的工作视为帮助人们度过生命中最美好的最后几个月，那么这是一种非常有趣的思考方式。
So as I'm in relationship with my patient, my mindset is, I've come to the understanding that my job, people pass.
因此，当我与患者建立关系时，我的心态是，我已经认识到我的工作和人们都会过去。
But I could go down a rabbit hole of despair because everyone potentially may pass, or I can see this as I'm giving someone a gift.
但我可能会陷入绝望的兔子洞，因为每个人都可能会通过，或者我可以在给别人一份礼物时看到这一点。
I'm giving them a gift of my presence.
我正在给他们一份我的存在的礼物。
I'm giving them a gift of them feeling held and cared for And so, to me, it's all about the framing of empathy.
我给他们一份礼物，让他们感到被拥抱和关心，所以，对我来说，这都是关于同理心的框架。
Yes, of course, you can lose yourself in someone else's shoes, but that's not emotional intelligence.
是的，当然，你可能会设身处地为别人着想，但这不是情商。
Emotional intelligence is saying, "You know what?
情商说的是：“你知道吗？
I'm noticing myself.
我注意到我自己了
I'm getting lost in your feelings.
我渐渐迷失在你的感情里了
I need to pull back a little bit."
我需要退后一点。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do we know where in the brain empathy resides?
我们知道同理心位于大脑的哪个位置吗？
We hear so much about mirror neurons, but I think for those of us that have been in neuroscience and psychology long enough, we acknowledge, yes, there are appropriate conversations that include the words mirror neurons, but that they've been made out to be much more than perhaps they are in terms of empathy, and they've become sort of the default description for all forms of empathy and understanding.
我们听说过很多关于镜像神经元的事情，但我认为，对于我们这些在神经科学和心理学领域工作了足够长的时间的人来说，我们承认，是的，有一些适当的对话包括镜像神经元这个词，但它们已经被证明比同理心方面的意义要大得多，而且它们已经成为所有形式的同理心和理解的默认描述。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
And mirroring.
和镜像。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's not just that.
不仅如此。
So what do we know about the brain science of empathy?
那么我们对同理心的脑科学了解多少呢？
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
I don't know much about that, to be honest.
老实说，我对此了解不多。
What I know more about is the kind of psychological experience of empathy, and that there are multiple forms of it.
我更了解的是同理心是一种心理体验，而且它有多种形式。
So, for example, there's the cognitive empathy piece where I've never had your experience, but intellectually, I get that you've suffered, or intellectually, I get your experience.
例如，在认知同理心部分，我从未有过你的经历，但从理智上来说，我知道你受过苦，或者从理智上来说，我得到了你的经历。
There's the emotional empathy, which is, when I meet other survivors of abuse who have felt shame, I understand what that means, because I've lived there.
这是情感上的同理心，也就是说，当我遇到其他感到羞耻的虐待幸存者时，我明白这意味着什么，因为我住在那里。
And not that our experience was the same, but our feeling was the same.
并不是说我们的经历是一样的，而是我们的感受是一样的。
We have a shared emotional experience.
我们有共同的情感经历。
And then on top of that, that compassionate form of empathy is what I think is what we need much more of in our society, which is, we don't just cognitively understand where someone is or relate to their experience, but we feel compelled to be in relationship with that person and be supportive.
最重要的是，我认为我们的社会更需要这种富有同情心的同理心，也就是说，我们不仅在认知上了解某人在哪里或与他们的经历相关，而且我们感到有必要与那个人建立关系并提供支持。
I'm thinking about something also that you spoke about earlier, which is this idea that, and this is a misconstrual of my work and others' work, that the goal of this is to talk about feelings all day long.
我也在想你之前谈到的一些事情，就是这个想法，这是对我的工作和其他人的工作的误解，认为这样做的目的是整天谈论感受。
The last thing I want to do is talk about my feelings all day long.
我最不想做的就是整天谈论我的感受。
That is not helpful, actually.
实际上，这没有帮助。
And I've had some experiences in my life where some-- Just to be blunt, shit happens, and I call everybody I know.
我一生中也有过一些经历，坦率地说，糟糕的事情发生了，我就打电话给我认识的每个人。
My best friends, my family.
我最好的朋友，我的家人。
"Can you believe this happened?
“你能相信这件事发生了吗？
I mean, I can't take it anymore." And then I hang up the phone, and I did the same thing, and they all listen to me.
我的意思是，我再也无法忍受了。”然后我挂断电话，我也做了同样的事情，他们都听我的。
And then I've spent two hours on the phone telling the same thing over and over again, talking about my feelings, and I feel worse because I've rehearsed it 15 times.
然后我花了两个小时在电话里一遍又一遍地讲同样的事情，谈论我的感受，我感觉更糟，因为我已经排练了15遍。
That's not emotional intelligence, right?
这不是情商，对吧？
When we're emotionally intelligent, we recognize and we know that just talking about it is actually not helpful.
当我们情商较高时，我们会认识到并且知道仅仅谈论它实际上没有帮助。
We need to be with someone who's that active listener, who's non-judgmental, who shows compassion.
我们需要和一个积极倾听、不带评判、表现出同情心的人在一起。
But when you're compassionate, you actually are bringing you back to the person saying, "Is this the right thing right now for you?
但当你富有同情心时，你实际上会把你带回到那个人身边，说：“现在对你来说这是正确的事情吗？
What else might you think about?" I know when I've had really difficult experiences, the person who says things like, "Maybe, could you just jump in the hot air balloon for a minute, Mark, and look down at your life?
你还能想到什么？”我知道当我经历过非常困难的经历时，有人会说这样的话：“马克，也许你能在热气球上跳一会儿，然后低头看看你的生活吗？
And besides this one thing that you feel like is the worst thing that's ever happened to you in your whole life, anything else going right?" "I mean, yeah, my partner loves me.
除了你觉得这是你一生中发生过的最糟糕的一件事之外，还有什么事情进展顺利吗？” “我的意思是，是的，我的伴侣爱我。
My dogs love me unconditionally.
我的狗无条件地爱我。
I got great friends." "Oh, yeah." All of a sudden, that little thing that's activating you is not so big anymore.
我有很好的朋友。” “哦，是啊。”突然间，那个激活你的小东西不再那么大了。
That's emotional intelligence, right?
这就是情商，对吧？
Is not getting lost in the empathy, not just endlessly talking about feelings to the point where there's no strategies.
不是迷失在同理心中，不是无休无止地谈论感情到没有策略的地步。
And I think that's really interesting because it goes back to something important, which is the permission to feel characteristics of non-judgment, active listening, and empathy, compassion.
我认为这真的很有趣，因为它可以追溯到一些重要的事情，那就是允许感受到不评判、积极倾听、同理心、同情心的特征。
Never, and I'm talking I have tens of thousands of people who've done this, does anyone say fixer, problem solver.
从来没有，我说的是，我有数以万计的人做过这件事，有人说是修复者、问题解决者。
I don't even get smart or wise.
我什至变得不聪明或明智。
When we think about the people who create the conditions for us to be our true selves, we don't think about the wisest, smartest fixer problem solver.
当我们想到那些为我们成为真正的自己创造条件的人时，我们想到的并不是最明智、最聪明的问题解决者。
We think about the non-judgmental listener who shows compassion.
我们会想到那些表现出同情心的不带偏见的倾听者。
And I think that has to be reinforced, that some of the fear that we have is that we're going to get lost in all these feelings, but no one's asking you to get lost in their feelings.
我认为这一点必须得到加强，我们担心我们会迷失在所有这些感受中，但没有人要求你迷失在他们的感受中。
What they're asking for is support.
他们所寻求的是支持。
They're asking you to just listen and to maybe ask me a few questions to help me clarify my experience and then help me on a path towards feeling better.
他们要求你倾听，也许可以问我一些问题，帮助我澄清我的经历，然后帮助我走上感觉更好的道路。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
I keep hearing that the way to do this properly is to ask questions as opposed to telling people what they need to do.
我一直听说，正确做到这一点的方法是提出问题，而不是告诉人们他们需要做什么。
Your friend or this person who was an effective source of support in that moment said, "Can you get in the hot air balloon and look down on your life?"
你的朋友或那个在那个时刻给予你有效支持的人说：“你能登上热气球并俯视你的生活吗？”
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I noticed that they didn't say, "Get in the hot air balloon for a second and then do this."
我注意到他们没有说：“坐上热气球一会儿，然后再做这个。”
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
As a former partner of mine said, who I'm still on great terms with, "No one likes to be shifted."
正如我的一位前合伙人所说，“没有人喜欢被调动”，我和他至今仍保持着良好的关系。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
No one wants to be told what to do.
没有人愿意被告知该做什么。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
No one wants to be shifted.
没有人愿意被转移。
No one, no matter what state they're in, high or low, wants somebody to come along and try and shift them.
没有人，无论他们处于什么状态，无论地位高低，都希望有人来尝试改变他们。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Or just tell them like, "Go for a walk." Okay, well, why am I...
或者只是告诉他们，“去散步。”好吧，好吧，为什么我...
To do what?
做什么？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or meditate.
或者冥想。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That one's become equally grading when it's probably a great thing to do, but perhaps there's a different way posed in the form of a question that would be more effective.
当这可能是一件很棒的事情时，它就会变得同样评分，但也许有一种不同的方式以问题的形式提出会更有效。
I think the hot air balloon example also brings to mind something.
我认为热气球的例子也让人想起一些事情。
I'll try and keep this as succinct as possible for your sake and for the audience's sake.
为了您和观众的利益，我会尽量保持简洁。
But having studied stress a bit in my laboratory and experienced a lot of stress, as most people have in their lifetime It's very clear that when we stress our mental aperture, our visual aperture, our auditory aperture, everything shrinks.
但是，在我的实验室里对压力进行了一些研究，并经历了很多压力，正如大多数人一生中所经历的那样。很明显，当我们对我们的心理孔径、视觉孔径、听觉孔径施加压力时，一切都会缩小。
It contracts.
它收缩。
And we know that getting a different spatial perspective gives us a different temporal perspective.
我们知道，获得不同的空间视角会给我们带来不同的时间视角。
We can start thinking-
我们可以开始思考——
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
about our life binned in larger pieces and get that perspective of the things that, in life, that are going well.
把我们的生活分成更大的部分，并从角度看待生活中进展顺利的事情。
There's a meditation that, I guess it's a meditation, I don't know what to call it, that I started doing years ago when I was a junior professor because life was so stressful-
有一种冥想，我想这是一种冥想，我不知道该怎么称呼它，我几年前开始做，当时我还是一名初级教授，因为生活压力太大了——
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
for tenure and-
对于终身教职和-
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
I know
我知道
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
little did I know that it just continues to be stressful, but a pleasure to do the work.
我几乎不知道，工作仍然充满压力，但工作却很愉快。
That involves basically doing a standard type meditation for a few breaths of closing my eyes and focusing on my body and what's going on internally, but then opening my eyes and focusing on something external, like my hand or the room, and then going to the pale blue dot.
这基本上包括进行标准类型的冥想，闭上眼睛并专注于我的身体和内部发生的事情，然后睁开眼睛并专注于外部事物，例如我的手或房间，然后转到淡蓝色的点。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's a very wide aperture, so effectively the hot air balloon looking down.
这是一个非常宽的光圈，因此热气球可以有效地俯视。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
It's distancing.
这是疏远。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Distancing.
疏远。
Right.
正确的。
And making this a practice, not in a moment of stress, but each morning, as I start the day, as a kind of reminder that our brains, our cognition, and our emotions go through tremendous state differentiation.
让这成为一种练习，不是在有压力的时刻，而是在每天早上，当我开始新的一天时，作为一种提醒，我们的大脑、我们的认知和我们的情绪会经历巨大的状态分化。
We're kind of different people under these different space-time references.
在这些不同的时空参考下，我们是不同的人。
And that when we're in stress, we tend to get locked-
当我们处于压力之下时，我们往往会陷入困境——
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
into one space-time reference.
进入一个时空参考。
And I'm not trying to be cosmic about this, but-
我并不是想对此表现得宽宏大量，但是——
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
No, but it's true
不，但这是真的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
the nature of stress is to have us anchored to the stressor.
压力的本质是让我们锚定在压力源上。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Correct.
正确。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And to put up mental walls to break out of that, and physical walls.
并建立精神壁垒和物理壁垒来打破这种壁垒。
So, it sounds like great supporters, and we can help ourselves through the more unpleasant portions of the emotion scale, if we want to, by taking ourselves into this different perspective.
所以，这听起来像是伟大的支持者，如果我们愿意的话，我们可以通过从不同的角度看待自己来帮助自己度过情绪量表中更不愉快的部分。
Using spatial tools.
使用空间工具。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hot air balloon, pale blue dot.
热气球，淡蓝色的点。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Questions to yourself.
对自己提出问题。
Say things like, "Mark..." I travel a lot, and I was just in Washington State for some presentations before this.
可以这样说：“马克……”我经常出差，在此之前我只是在华盛顿州参加一些演讲。
Flight delays, then my flight got canceled.
航班延误，然后我的航班被取消。
I missed a dinner.
我错过了一顿晚餐。
And I used to get really worked up about it.
我曾经为此非常激动。
And I would just take a seat at the airport, take a nice long inhale.
我会在机场找个座位，长长地吸一口气。
I'm like, "Mark, is this really going to be something that's going to bother you next week?" I'm working on a book.
我想，“马克，这真的会成为下周困扰你的事情吗？”我正在写一本书。
I'm like, "I got another night in a hotel to work." I actually reframed it as an opportunity to have some space and write.
我想，“我又在酒店工作了一晚。”实际上，我将其重新定义为一个拥有空间和写作的机会。
And so you can use these techniques a lot.
所以你可以经常使用这些技术。
Going back to my dad.
回到我爸爸身边。
So my dad, as he got older, his anger did come back.
所以我父亲，随着年龄的增长，他的愤怒确实又回来了。
I remember this one time where we're at a family dinner, and I had already been in my position for a while, and there was a little bit of resentment with my father because he was a blue collar worker, and a very talented air conditioning repairman, and had a good career.
我记得有一次我们在家庭聚餐时，我已经在这个岗位上工作了一段时间，对我父亲有一点怨恨，因为他是一名蓝领工人，也是一名非常有才华的空调修理工，而且有一份很好的职业。
But all of a sudden, went to graduate school and got PhDs, and it was a little bit difficult for my father at some time.
但是突然之间，读研，拿到博士学位，对于我父亲来说，一时有点困难。
And so when I got a job at Yale, in particular, there were some emotions about that.
因此，特别是当我在耶鲁大学找到工作时，我对此产生了一些情绪。
And I remember we were at this one dinner, and basically, I'm not going to repeat what he said because it's really gross, but he said something like, "Mark, you think your blank doesn't stink anymore." And I was like, "Yeesh." And then he just went on and on and on.
我记得我们参加了这一次晚餐，基本上，我不会重复他说的话，因为这真的很恶心，但他说了类似的话，“马克，你认为你的空白不再发臭了。”我当时想，“是的。”然后他就一直这样一直说下去。
And I had to make a choice.
我必须做出选择。
Do I start crying in the middle of this dinner because I feel so violated by my father?
我是否会在晚餐进行到一半时开始哭泣，因为我觉得自己被父亲侵犯了？
Do I tell him to go blank himself and walk out of the room?
我要让他保持空白并走出房间吗？
And I decided to use a distancing technique.
我决定使用一种疏远技术。
I decided to make him into a movie.
我决定把他拍成电影。
I decided that he was now a TV show, and that TV show was something I was observing and not feeling.
我决定他现在是一个电视节目，而那个电视节目是我在观察而不是在感受的东西。
And that has proven to be one of the most powerful strategies for me, is when I'm in a position with someone who has a lot of negative energy.
事实证明，这对我来说是最有力的策略之一，那就是当我和一个有很多负能量的人在一起时。
And as a kid who was bullied, I'm more affected by these things, I think.
我想，作为一个被欺负的孩子，我受这些事情的影响更大。
I create that psychological distance by just putting that picture frame up there, and I just observe it, and I ask myself questions about it.
我通过把相框放在那里来创造这种心理距离，我只是观察它，然后问自己一些关于它的问题。
I'm like, "Wow." Or I say things like, "Wow, that's really interesting.
我想，“哇。”或者我会说，“哇，这真的很有趣。
I wonder where that..." I get curious about it.
我想知道那是哪里……”我很好奇。
Like, "I wonder where that's coming from.
就像，“我想知道那是从哪里来的。
What was his childhood like that he's so angry?"
他小时候到底经历了什么，才会这么生气？”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
And it really is helpful.
这确实很有帮助。
So these are very powerful techniques.
所以这些都是非常强大的技术。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That can be used in real-time, as you just described.
正如您刚才所描述的，它可以实时使用。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Very real time.
非常实时。
I use them all the time.
我一直在使用它们。
I'm at the grocery store.
我在杂货店。
I'm not going to get into my issues, but I grew up with, I would say lower middle class.
我不会谈论我的问题，但我是和中下阶层一起长大的。
We didn't have a lot of money.
我们没有很多钱。
Everything was on a budget.
一切都在预算之内。
And I'm fortunate to be in a different circumstance now, but I'm still cheap.
我很幸运现在处于不同的情况，但我仍然很廉价。
And so my partner worries.
所以我的伴侣很担心。
I'm like, "I don't understand.
我说：“我不明白。
We're not buying that.
我们不相信这一点。
That is ridiculous.
这太荒谬了。
We're not spending $7 on a bottle of organic almond milk." Like, "I'm not doing it.
我们不会花 7 美元买一瓶有机杏仁奶。”就像，“我不这样做。
We're not doing it." And then I have to move away from the aisle, take a little walk.
我们不这样做。”然后我必须离开过道，走一小段路。
I'm like, "Mark, is this worth your relationship?
我说，“马克，你的关系值得吗？
The almond milk?
杏仁奶？
Really?
真的吗？
Is this what you're going to do?" And so I don't know.
这就是你要做的事吗？”所以我不知道。
Maybe I'm just the only one who needs regulation 300 times a day.
也许我只是唯一一个每天需要调节300次的人。
But I find that different strategies, like the picture frame, works when I'm angry or someone is angry with me.
但我发现当我生气或有人对我生气时，不同的策略（例如相框）会起作用。
My anxiety, I get into the hot air balloon, and I look down.
我的焦虑，我钻进了热气球，我往下看。
When I'm irritated with someone, I just take the walk away, and I ask myself, "Is this really that important?" And that's what I hope people will learn, is that there's so many amazing strategies out there, and that we use them interchangeably with different emotions and different contexts.
当我对某人感到恼火时，我就会走开，然后问自己：“这真的那么重要吗？”这就是我希望人们学到的，那就是，有很多令人惊奇的策略，并且我们可以在不同的情绪和不同的环境下互换使用它们。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
While a lot of the stereotypes dating back to the, let's just say in 1930s through to the end of the 1970s, seem to couch people as more stoic-
虽然很多刻板印象可以追溯到 20 世纪 30 年代到 70 年代末，但似乎让人们显得更加坚忍——
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
less emotionally expressive, especially in public or with people that they weren't very close with.
情感表达较少，尤其是在公共场合或与不太亲近的人在一起时。
There was also a tendency, at least in movies about that time, for people who were passionate to be rewarded for expressions of their passion.
至少在当时的电影中，还有一种趋势是，那些充满热情的人会因为表达自己的热情而获得奖励。
So it's kind of two ends of the-
所以这有点像两端——
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Sure
当然可以
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
of the spectrum, right?
的频谱，对吗？
We always think of the real stoic thing, both for male and female phenotypes.
我们总是想到真正坚忍的事情，无论是男性还是女性的表型。
Right?
正确的？
You look at movies from the 30s and 40s-
你看30年代和40年代的电影-
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
you see that, but you also saw intense expression, passionate expression.
你看到了，但你也看到了激烈的表情，热情的表情。
And now, I suppose we're in a bit of a new place where I think there's an invitation, I like to think there's an invitation for a broader range of emotional expressions and-
现在，我想我们正处在一个新的境地，我认为这是一个邀请，我喜欢认为这是一个对更广泛的情感表达的邀请，而且——
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
phenotypes, let's call them.
表型，我们称之为表型。
I'm a biologist after all.
毕竟我是一名生物学家。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's also a safe ...
这也是一个安全...
word to use still, I think.
我认为仍然可以使用这个词。
You can use the word phenotypes.
您可以使用“表型”一词。
Stereotypes is a bit loaded.
刻板印象有点负载。
A lot loaded.
负载很多。
But emotionality and the notion of people being overly emotional has, unfortunately, a bit of a negative-
但不幸的是，情绪化以及人们过度情绪化的观念有一些负面影响——
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
It does
确实如此
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
tinge to it.
色调它。
Whereas somebody being passionate, that sounds like a pretty good thing.
虽然有人充满热情，但这听起来是一件很好的事情。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Well, emotional is historically like, you're hysterical.
嗯，从历史上看，情绪化就像，你歇斯底里。
It means that you are not in control of your emotions.
这意味着你无法控制自己的情绪。
I don't like to use that term ever.
我从来不喜欢使用这个词。
I just find it a useless term.
我只是觉得它是一个无用的术语。
Because oftentimes when people think about emotions, they think of people being emotional, and I just don't even know what that means.
因为很多时候，当人们想到情绪时，他们会想到人们是情绪化的，而我什至不知道这意味着什么。
It has just connotations from the past that I don't think are helpful.
它只是包含了我认为没有帮助的过去的含义。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Maybe that's why my graduate advisor said, "Instead of telling you to be careful, I'll tell you to be mindful, because the opposite of mindful is mindless, and then you'll remember."
也许这就是为什么我的研究生导师说：“我不会告诉你要小心，而是要告诉你要正念，因为正念的反义词是无意识，然后你就会记住。”
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Exactly.
确切地。
And by going back, you'll hear people say, "Why are you so emotional?" And again, that's a place of judgment.
回去后，你会听到人们说：“你为什么这么情绪化？”再说一遍，这是一个判断的地方。
What they're saying is that you're experiencing a strong emotion that's making me uncomfortable.
他们的意思是你正在经历一种强烈的情绪，这让我感到不舒服。
I don't know what to do with that feeling.
我不知道该如何处理这种感觉。
So by me labeling you as emotional, I can alienate you.
因此，如果我给你贴上情绪化的标签，我就会疏远你。
Where's that going to lead to?
那会通向哪里？
Not good communication, right?
沟通不太顺畅吧？
Not healthy relationships.
不健康的人际关系。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And yet we reward people still for being passionate, even if it's tinged with some anger.
然而，我们仍然奖励那些仍然充满热情的人，即使其中夹杂着一些愤怒。
Like, if somebody has a cause that they're really passionate about, we don't necessarily say they're being emotional.
就像，如果某人有一个他们真正热衷的事业，我们不一定会说他们是情绪化的。
We say they're really passionate about this.
我们说他们对此非常热衷。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There seems to be a subtle difference there.
那里似乎存在着微妙的差异。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
There is.
有。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That maybe it's rooted in a kind of a trajectory of trying to achieve a specific outcome, whereas just anger or sadness kind of just geysering out of us, it doesn't seem like it's directed towards an endpoint.
也许它植根于一种试图实现特定结果的轨迹，而愤怒或悲伤只是从我们身上涌出，它似乎并不指向终点。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
It's less personal.
这是不太个人化的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
It's more reactive.
它更具反应性。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
The emotional is the judgment, right?
情感就是判断，对吗？
When I say, "Andrew, you're so emotional." Right?
当我说：“安德鲁，你太情绪化了。”正确的？
It also can be a form of gaslighting, right?
它也可以是煤气灯操纵的一种形式，对吧？
Which is I'm trying to get you to believe something about yourself that I want you to believe, which may not be a reality at all, which is usually problematic in our society.
我想让你相信一些关于你自己的事情，我想让你相信，这可能根本不是现实，这在我们的社会中通常是有问题的。
I think most of our low self-esteem comes from gaslighting in our childhoods, where people-
我认为我们的低自尊大部分来自于童年时期的煤气灯操纵，人们——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
People gaslighting each other.
人们互相点燃煤气灯。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
I think that's the beginning of bullying, which is that, "Mark, you're too skinny.
我认为这就是欺凌的开始，那就是，“马克，你太瘦了。
Mark, you're too overweight.
马克，你太胖了。
Mark, your nose is too big.
马克，你的鼻子太大了。
Mark, your nose is too small.
马克，你的鼻子太小了。
Mark, you're too feminine.
马克，你太女性化了。
Mark, you're too masculine." And then all of a sudden, there's no feelings mentors, there's no education, and I just start believing it.
马克，你太有男子气概了。”然后突然间，没有感情导师，没有教育，我就开始相信了。
And then it becomes my reality.
然后它就成为我的现实。
It's like a self-fulfilling prophecy, and it's awful.
这就像一个自我实现的预言，而且很可怕。
You see it all the time.
你经常看到它。
We're not born being self-critics.
我们生来就不是自我批评者。
We're born being experience dependent.
我们生来就依赖经验。
Right?
正确的？
We depend on relationships.
我们依赖关系。
And if those relationships are meaning cruel and people are gaslighters, well, guess what?
如果这些关系意味着残酷，而人们都是煤气灯操纵者，那么，你猜怎么着？
That's going to end up being how we think about ourselves.
这最终将成为我们对自己的看法。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In your book, you include a number of really wonderful quotes, but one of them that I anchored to very quickly is the following: "All learning has an emotional base." And it was none other than Plato-
在你的书中，你引用了许多非常精彩的引言，但我很快就抓住了其中的一条：“所有的学习都有情感基础。”这不是别人，正是柏拉图——
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that said that.
就是这么说的。
What is the relationship between emotions and learning and decision-making?
情绪与学习和决策之间有什么关系？
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Let's think about right now.
我们现在就想一想。
Our interaction as a teacher.
我们作为老师的互动。
How many of you have ever been, meaning your listeners and you, how many of us have ever been in a situation in a classroom where it's like, "All right, everybody, let's turn to page 357.
你们中有多少人曾经经历过这样的情况，即你们的听众和您，我们中有多少人曾经在教室里经历过这样的情况：“好吧，大家，让我们翻到第 357 页。
All right, Mark, you're going to read paragraph one, and Andrew, you're going to read paragraph two." And your brain is immediately gone.
好吧，马克，你要读第一段，安德鲁，你要读第二段。”你的大脑立刻就消失了。
So emotions drive our attention.
所以情绪会吸引我们的注意力。
It's so clear.
太清楚了。
If we're not feeling engaged or curious, we're going to be bored.
如果我们不感到投入或好奇，我们就会感到无聊。
And again, boredom, not a bad emotion.
再说一遍，无聊，并不是一种坏情绪。
It just means what's being presented to me and the way it's being presented is not meeting my needs.
这只是意味着呈现给我的内容以及呈现方式无法满足我的需求。
It's not engaging me, so my brain needs to do something.
它没有吸引我，所以我的大脑需要做点什么。
I'm just going to go doodle.
我只是要去涂鸦。
I'm going to go push the kid here.
我要去把孩子推到这里。
I'm going to get on my phone.
我要打电话了。
It's just where we want to-- Our brains are wanting to do things.
这正是我们想要做的事情——我们的大脑想要做事。
When we're in environments where there's a lot of curiosity, where there is high engagement, attention is much better.
当我们处于充满好奇心、高度参与的环境中时，注意力会更好。
So that's the simplest thing to think about.
所以这是最简单的事情。
In my work, my whole career has been about building curriculum to help educators integrate emotions into their everyday classroom.
在我的工作中，我的整个职业生涯都是围绕构建课程来帮助教育工作者将情感融入到他们的日常课堂中。
And part of what we help them understand, going back to that mood meter, think about that for a minute.
我们帮助他们理解的部分内容，回到情绪表，想一分钟。
A lot of us, because of our dispositions, we tend to speak with a certain cadence, we tend to present in a certain way And if you're someone who lives in the green, you're just calm and content and tranquil and peaceful.
我们中的很多人，由于我们的性格，我们倾向于以一定的节奏说话，我们倾向于以某种方式呈现。如果你是生活在绿色中的人，你就会平静、满足、安宁、平和。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The spa people.
水疗中心的人。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Right.
对。
Some of the yoga teachers.
一些瑜伽老师。
Let's all turn our attentions to ourselves.
让我们都把注意力转向我们自己吧。
They're great.
他们很棒。
I love yoga.
我喜欢瑜伽。
But my point is, if you're always in that green quadrant, for me, even though I am living there a lot, it's like, "Give me some energy, please." I have a friend who is a principal of a middle school in San Francisco, and she's a former tennis coach, and she walks into the school, "Team, let's go, go, go," every day.
但我的观点是，如果你总是处于那个绿色象限，对我来说，即使我经常住在那里，就像，“请给我一些能量。”我有一个朋友，她是旧金山一所中学的校长，她曾经是一名网球教练，她每天走进学校，“团队，我们走吧，走吧，走吧”。
It's like, "Heather, come on.
就像是，“希瑟，来吧。
You're overwhelming me." And then you've got people who might be in that blue quadrant.
你压倒了我。”然后你就会发现那些可能处于蓝色象限的人。
It's like we've done some education work in the past.
就像我们过去做过一些教育工作一样。
And let's be real.
让我们面对现实吧。
How much education reform really matters?
教育改革到底有多重要？
Mark, you do all this research, but who's reading it?
马克，你做了所有这些研究，但谁在读它？
Is anybody really reading it?
真的有人读吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Such a downer.
真是令人沮丧。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Or that person who's always in the red.
或者那个总是亏损的人。
That's activated.
就这样激活了。
It's caustic.
这是腐蚀性的。
And so my point here is that we're going to default in many ways to being in one of these quadrants.
所以我的观点是，我们将在很多方面默认处于这些象限之一。
Maybe all day long, maybe part of the day.
也许一整天，也许一天的一部分。
But as someone who is leading, because I consider leadership teaching, someone who's managing a team, as a teacher in a classroom, as a parent, couple, whatever, I've got to be aware of where I live emotionally, and I've got to be aware that not everybody wants to be with me where I'm at.
但作为一个领导者，因为我认为领导力教学，一个管理团队的人，作为课堂上的老师，作为父母，夫妇，无论如何，我必须意识到我的情感生活，我必须意识到并不是每个人都愿意和我在一起。
And my job is to create an emotional rollercoaster ride for people, to bring people on an emotional journey, because that's what's going to keep them interested.
我的工作是为人们创造一次情感上的过山车，带人们踏上情感之旅，因为这会让他们保持兴趣。
And believe it or not, from our research and others' research, we know that certain emotions are better for certain things.
不管你相信与否，根据我们和其他人的研究，我们知道某些情绪对某些事情更好。
So for example, if I want my high school students to be really brainstorming ideas, I'm not going to put on a Gregorian chant.
例如，如果我希望我的高中生真正集思广益，我就不会唱格里高利圣歌。
It's like, "Ugh." I'm going to put on Lady Gaga.
就像是“呃”。我要穿上Lady Gaga。
"I'm on the edge of glory," and let's get pumped up, and like, "Everybody, let's get the Post-its out there." And everybody's excited and just brainstorming.
“我正处于荣耀的边缘，”让我们兴奋起来，就像，“大家，让我们把便利贴拿出来。”每个人都很兴奋并集思广益。
But then what's going to be the project?
那么这个项目将会是什么？
You can't be all hyped up because then your brain is not in a very building consensus kind of model mode.
你不能太兴奋，因为那样你的大脑就不会处于一种非常建立共识的模型模式。
So when we bring our energy level down, it's like, "Oh, let me think about it for a minute." Hmm.
因此，当我们降低能量水平时，就像是，“哦，让我考虑一下。”唔。
You're more thoughtful.
你比较有想法。
You're more careful.
你更小心一点。
You're more like, "I don't know." Then people would say, "Well, why would blue, why would unpleasant low energy be helpful?" Well, believe it or not, oftentimes we can be much more detail-oriented when we're in that low energy, unpleasant place.
你更像是“我不知道”。然后人们会说，“好吧，为什么蓝色会，为什么令人不快的低能量会有帮助？”好吧，不管你信不信，当我们处于那种低能量、不愉快的状态时，我们通常可以更加注重细节。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hmm.
嗯。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
I do a lot of grant writing.
我写了很多补助金。
It's like, "I think it's great." Not a great idea.
就像，“我认为这很棒。”这不是一个好主意。
Mark, put on the classical music, zone everybody out, get into that place where you are going to look for every i to dot, every comma that should be a semicolon, every dash that should be this, paragraph matching.
马克，放古典音乐，让大家分散注意力，进入你要寻找每个点的地方，每个应该是分号的逗号，每个应该是这个的破折号，段落匹配。
You can't do that when you're really super excited.
当你真的非常兴奋的时候你不能这样做。
Your brain doesn't operate that way.
你的大脑不是这样运作的。
And then people say, "Red?" Why would red be great?
然后人们会说：“红色？”为什么红色会很棒？
The best story I have for that is, so I actually did a collaboration with Lady Gaga and her foundation, Born This Way Foundation, many years ago.
我对此最好的故事是，很多年前我实际上与 Lady Gaga 和她的基金会 Born This Way Foundation 进行了合作。
And we did a study of thousands of high school students across America, and we looked at how do they feel when they're in school.
我们对美国各地数千名高中生进行了一项研究，了解他们在学校时的感受。
And what we found was 77% of the feelings, going to repeat that, 77% of their emotions at school were unpleasant.
我们发现 77% 的情绪，重复一遍，77% 在学校的情绪是不愉快的。
Tired, bored, and stressed were the top three back then.
疲倦、无聊、压力是当时排名前三的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Whew.
呼。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
So we did this study.
所以我们做了这项研究。
We were working on it as a big project called The Emotion Revolution, and we ended up going to the White House to present our findings.
我们正在将其作为一个名为“情感革命”的大项目进行研究，最终我们前往白宫展示了我们的发现。
I had to make a decision.
我必须做出决定。
I had the Secretary of Education at that time in front of me.
当时我面前的是教育部长。
I'm presenting this big study on the emotional lives of teenagers.
我正在介绍这项关于青少年情感生活的大型研究。
Do I want to go in there like, "I've got an amazing study to share with you"?
我想进去说“我有一项很棒的研究要与你分享”吗？
I'm like, "Hmm, not so great." Do I want to go in there like, "Secretary, let's just take a nice long inhale and an exhale." That's not going to go over so well.
我想，“嗯，不太好。”我是否想进去说，“部长，让我们好好地长长地吸气和呼气。”事情不会那么顺利。
Do I want to go in in the blue like, "You know, it's pretty bad out there." No. I decided that red was my quadrant.
我是否想在忧郁的情况下说：“你知道，外面的情况很糟糕。”不，我决定红色是我的象限。
I wanted the people in the education department to be fired up by this research.
我希望这项研究能够激发教育部门的人们的热情。
I want them to feel the passion that I had and the anger that I had, that it is an injustice for kids to feel that way in our nation's schools.
我希望他们感受到我的热情和愤怒，让孩子们在我们国家的学校里有这样的感觉是不公平的。
We need to figure out what to do to create a more engaging learning environment.
我们需要弄清楚如何创造一个更具吸引力的学习环境。
And so I decided to really present that in that way.
所以我决定以这种方式真正地呈现它。
I didn't present the findings and look at the data.
我没有展示调查结果并查看数据。
I'm like, "I want you to really take a look at these data, please.
我说：“我希望你认真看看这些数据。
77% of the..." I'm saying 77% of the emotions, tired, bored, and stressed.
77%的……”我说的是77%的情绪，疲倦、无聊和压力。
How is that going to lead to a nation filled with people who are innovative and creative and making a difference in the world?
这将如何导致一个充满创新和创造力并为世界带来改变的人们的国家？
Think about it.
想一想。
We know how emotions drive the way we behave.
我们知道情绪如何影响我们的行为方式。
If you're tired, bored, and stressed all day long, what's the result?
如果你整天很累、很无聊、压力很大，结果会怎样呢？
And so I presented it that way, and I did the best I could.
所以我就以这种方式呈现它，并尽我所能。
And I think that's the magic of understanding emotion.
我认为这就是理解情感的魔力。
Does this resonate?
这引起共鸣吗？
That we're going to be intentional about the emotions that we feel and that the emotions that we create in environments, whether they're at home or at school or in the workplace, because certain emotions work better for certain things.
我们将有意识地对待我们感受到的情绪以及我们在环境中创造的情绪，无论是在家里、在学校还是在工作场所，因为某些情绪对某些事情更有效。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Your examples bring me back to your earlier mention of this brilliant five-year-old kid who realized that his current emotional state was like the weather.
你的例子让我想起你之前提到的这个聪明的五岁孩子，他意识到自己当前的情绪状态就像天气一样。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's going to change.
它将会改变。
In order to have that perspective, my guess is that he had to have already at some point moved from the blue quadrant, so low energy, low pleasantness, to the green quadrant.
为了拥有这样的视角，我的猜测是，他必须在某个时刻从能量低、愉悦感低的蓝色象限转移到绿色象限。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Correct.
正确。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
High pleasantness, low energy to the yellow quadrant, perhaps not in this order.
黄色象限的愉悦度高，能量低，也许不是这个顺序。
And yes, I'm using this to remind people about the quadrants.
是的，我用它来提醒人们有关象限的信息。
Higher energy, higher pleasantness.
更高的能量，更高的愉悦感。
And then red, high energy, low pleasantness.
然后是红色，高能量，低愉悦感。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So-
所以——
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Well, because he's checking in daily.
嗯，因为他每天都会签到。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Right.
对。
So in this school, which we call a ruler school, that's what they do.
所以在这所学校，我们称之为尺校，他们就是这么做的。
Kids check in, in the morning and other times throughout the day, and they start to recognize that I can feel this way at one point of the day, and I can feel this way at another point of the day.
孩子们在早上和一天中的其他时间来报到，他们开始意识到我可以在一天中的某个时刻有这种感觉，在一天中的另一个时刻也可以有这种感觉。
And if I'm feeling this way and I'm about to do something where that feeling is not great, I can shift out of that feeling, or I can still feel that feeling and still be a good learner.
如果我有这种感觉，而我要做一些感觉不太好的事情，我可以摆脱这种感觉，或者我仍然可以有这种感觉，并且仍然是一个好的学习者。
I mean, that's incredible to me that we can do that.
我的意思是，我们能做到这一点对我来说真是难以置信。
And I see it in thousands of schools, and it's done remarkably well.
我在数千所学校中看到了这种做法，而且做得非常好。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And you've developed an app that's freely available.
您已经开发了一款免费的应用程序。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That allows people to essentially press the screen.
这使得人们基本上可以按下屏幕。
Is that right?
是这样吗？
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And to denote where they are on this energy versus pleasantness-
并表示他们在能量与愉悦上的位置-
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
That's correct
这是正确的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
scale at numerous times throughout the day and night, if they choose.
如果他们愿意的话，可以在白天和晚上多次缩放。
We'll provide a link to this app in the show note captions.
我们将在显示注释标题中提供此应用程序的链接。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
It's called How We Feel.
这就是我们的感受。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, I've used it before.
是的，我以前用过它。
And a previous version, I need to update and get the new version, and I will.
和以前的版本一样，我需要更新并获取新版本，我会的。
I found it to be immensely useful just to start thinking about emotions along this energy versus pleasantness axis.
我发现沿着能量与愉悦的轴开始思考情绪是非常有用的。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
After one does this for a few days or weeks, maybe checking in and touching the app, I don't know, a couple of times a day, maybe again in the evening upon waking, what sort of data or information does one get back that can be informative toward being a healthier, happier person?
在这样做几天或几周后，也许签入并触摸应用程序，我不知道，一天几次，也许在晚上醒来后再次，一个人会得到什么样的数据或信息，可以为成为一个更健康、更快乐的人提供信息？
Ah, excuse me.
啊，对不起。
A healthier person.
一个更健康的人。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
More contented.
更满足了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
More content.
更多内容。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Well, what's really cool about the app, and the reason why we have an app, is that technology can be super helpful in this instance for building self-awareness.
嗯，这个应用程序真正酷的地方，以及我们拥有这个应用程序的原因，是技术在这种情况下对于建立自我意识非常有帮助。
So if I set reminders, which you can do on the app, to check in in the morning, maybe after lunch or right before I go home, you pick whatever works for you, or you can do it randomly, and then you aggregate your data across time.
因此，如果我设置提醒（您可以在应用程序上执行此操作），以便在早上（也许是午餐后或回家之前）签到，您可以选择适合您的任何内容，也可以随机执行，然后汇总不同时间段的数据。
Right now you have instances of your emotions over time.
现在，随着时间的推移，你的情绪会有所体现。
But what's also cool about it is that you can disaggregate your data by things like who you're with, or where you're at, or what you're doing, and then you can analyze that, so you get your little mood meters that are all different colors because, wow, I thought I was more in the yellow at work, but I'm actually more in the blue at work.
但它的另一个很酷的地方是，你可以按照你和谁在一起，或者你在哪里，或者你在做什么来分解你的数据，然后你可以对其进行分析，这样你就可以得到不同颜色的小情绪表，因为，哇，我以为我在工作时更处于黄色状态，但实际上我在工作时更处于蓝色状态。
Or I thought when I'm with this person, I'm actually feeling calm.
或者我想，当我和这个人在一起时，我实际上感到平静。
Actually, when I look at my data, I'm always anxious with that person.
事实上，当我查看我的数据时，我总是对那个人感到焦虑。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So it runs a reverse correlation.
所以它运行逆相关。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Yes.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Fantastic.
太棒了。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
And then you can just look at your report, and then it asks you questions to get more insights.
然后您可以查看报告，然后它会向您提出问题以获得更多见解。
And also importantly, we've embedded a lot of the strategies that I've been talking about.
同样重要的是，我们已经嵌入了我一直在谈论的许多策略。
So like these distancing strategies or the breathing exercises or the mindfulness exercises or gratitude exercises.
就像这些疏远策略或呼吸练习或正念练习或感恩练习一样。
Which by the way, I was thinking in the back of my head as we were speaking about the envy reduction program.
顺便说一句，当我们谈论减少嫉妒计划时，我在脑海中思考着这一点。
I think the number one thing is gratitude.
我认为第一件事就是感恩。
That if our brains are just endlessly searching for what's better that's out there than what I have, we're not experiencing any gratitude for what we have.
如果我们的大脑只是无休止地寻找比我拥有的更好的东西，我们就不会对我们拥有的拥有任何感激之情。
And so I spend a lot of time helping people really understand, take a look, look where you're at as a student.
所以我花了很多时间帮助人们真正理解、看看、看看你作为学生的处境。
Think about what you have the opportunity to learn.
想想你有机会学到什么。
Think about the opportunities you have in life.
想想你生活中拥有的机会。
And all of a sudden, it's like, "Oh yeah, my life is pretty good," as opposed to, "Everyone else's life is better than mine." So gratitude for me, sometimes it feels cliché these days.
突然之间，就像是，“哦，是的，我的生活非常好”，而不是“其他人的生活都比我的好。”所以对我表示感谢，现在有时感觉很陈词滥调。
You've heard so much about it.
你已经听过很多关于它的事了。
And I can't talk strongly enough about both the practice and the science that supports it.
我无法充分地谈论实践和支持它的科学。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Amen to that.
阿门。
When I did an episode about gratitude, now some years ago, I was positively shocked to see the data.
几年前，当我制作一集关于感恩的节目时，我对这些数据感到非常震惊。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The data on gratitude practices are so striking in terms of whether or not one looks at neurotransmitter expression or whether one looks at happiness rating scales, as it were.
无论人们是否关注神经递质的表达，或者是否关注幸福评级量表，有关感恩实践的数据都非常引人注目。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Learning, ability to learn.
学习，学习能力。
So many things are improved by even short gratitude practices.
即使是短暂的感恩练习也能改善很多事情。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it was interesting for me to realize that not only do effective gratitude practices include thinking about what one has, but also in observing others expressing their own gratitude, either towards us or towards others.
有趣的是，我意识到，有效的感恩实践不仅包括思考一个人拥有什么，还包括观察他人表达自己的感激之情，无论是对我们还是对他人。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So, there's something about the human brain that really thrives on gratitude.
所以，人类大脑中确实有一种因感恩而蓬勃发展的东西。
And the other thing that I think is worth mentioning, you said these students could, through a gratitude practice, realize the opportunity that they have.
我认为值得一提的另一件事是，您说这些学生可以通过感恩练习来认识到他们所拥有的机会。
I think a lot of people default to the assumption that a gratitude practice will make them complacent-
我认为很多人默认这样的假设：感恩实践会让他们自满——
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and stop seeking to reach their goals.
并停止寻求实现目标。
But actually, the opposite is true.
但实际上，事实恰恰相反。
There's smaller research, as far as I understand, maybe it's expanded in recent years, where if people do a regular gratitude practice, even five minutes a day, their achievement actually increases as well.
据我了解，有一项规模较小的研究，也许近年来有所扩大，如果人们定期进行感恩练习，即使每天五分钟，他们的成就实际上也会增加。
So gratitude and complacency are not in the same bin.
所以感恩和自满不能放在一起。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Yeah, exactly.
是的，完全正确。
These are all evidence-based strategies to help us have a better life.
这些都是基于证据的策略，可以帮助我们过上更好的生活。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So clearly you're on a mission, and it's a wonderful, in fact, admirable one at that, to bring more emotional awareness.
很明显，你肩负着一项使命，这是一项美妙的、事实上令人钦佩的使命，那就是带来更多的情感意识。
Can we call it that?
我们可以这样称呼它吗？
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Emotional awareness to kids and to adults to better the world.
对孩子和成人的情感意识，让世界变得更美好。
I don't think I'm overreaching there.
我不认为我在这方面做得太过分了。
I think that's the goal.
我认为这就是目标。
I'd like to get back to your origin story a bit to understand a little bit more about the motivation behind the goal.
我想回顾一下你的起源故事，以更多地了解目标背后的动机。
You've written about in your book, and you've spoken a little bit today about the fact that you were bullied pretty viciously.
你在书中写到了，今天你也谈到了你被非常恶毒地欺负的事实。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And also, were the target of abuse.
而且，也是虐待的目标。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
When one thinks about bullying in particular, we, I think all, hopefully, naturally default to, okay, how can we stop bullies?
当人们特别想到欺凌行为时，我想所有人都会自然而然地默认，好吧，我们怎样才能阻止欺凌行为？
But I'm guessing this is a two-sided issue, and I'm not trying to create empathy for bullies here, but I'm guessing that in order to really disintegrate the bullying problem down to zero, which would be the ultimate goal.
但我猜这是一个双面问题，我并不是想在这里对欺凌者产生同情心，但我猜想，为了真正将欺凌问题分解为零，这将是最终目标。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Sounds great to me.
对我来说听起来很棒。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
That we need to get into the minds of both the bullied and the bullies.
我们需要了解被欺凌者和欺凌者的想法。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Correct.
正确。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And as uncomfortable as that might be, maybe this is an opportunity to embrace some of the very practices that you've been talking about.
尽管这可能会让人感到不舒服，但也许这是一个接受您一直在谈论的一些实践的机会。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So if you would, could you tell us a little bit about how, as a kid, how you perceived your bullies?
如果你愿意的话，你能告诉我们一些关于你小时候是如何看待你的欺凌者的吗？
I'm very curious about that.
我对此很好奇。
I can say I've never been bullied, but I've also not been a bully.
我可以说我从来没有被欺负过，但我也没有成为欺凌者。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I can easily say, I was thinking about this during our brief break there.
我可以很容易地说，我在那里短暂休息时就在考虑这个问题。
I hate bullies.
我讨厌恶霸。
I hate them.
我讨厌他们。
I'm right there in the red-
我就在红色那里-
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
no pleasantness, top, top corner there.
那里没有令人愉快的地方，顶角。
It activates me physically.
它激活了我的身体。
It makes me angry.
这让我很生气。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
It should.
它应该。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It makes me want to do something about it.
这让我想做点什么。
But as somebody who was bullied, how did you perceive your bullies?
但作为一个被欺凌的人，你如何看待你的欺凌者？
Did you think they were correct, or the authority?
你认为他们是正确的还是权威的？
And how have you embraced whatever understanding that was and morphed it over time to be able to think about how to solve the bullying problem-
你是如何接受过去的理解并随着时间的推移而改变它，以便能够思考如何解决欺凌问题——
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
both from the perspective of the bullied and the bully?
从被欺凌者和欺凌者的角度来看？
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
We're going to have a couple of days together for this.
我们将为此共聚几天。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
When I think about my eight-year-old self, 10-year-old self, 11-year-old self being bullied.
当我想到八岁的自己、十岁的自己、十一岁的自己被欺负的时候。
Remember, bullying is about a power imbalance.
请记住，欺凌与权力不平衡有关。
That's one of the core elements of it.
这是它的核心要素之一。
It's about the intent to harm, which is it's not conflict.
这是关于伤害的意图，这不是冲突。
It's not like sibling rivalry.
这不像兄弟姐妹之间的竞争。
It's intention to harm, where there's a power imbalance, and how long, and the repetition of it.
它是伤害的意图，哪里存在权力不平衡，持续多久，以及重复。
Those are the three key factors in bullying.
这是欺凌行为的三个关键因素。
It's repeated, it's intended to harm, and there's a power imbalance.
它不断重复，意图伤害，并且存在权力不平衡。
And so that puts you in a really powerless position when you think about it.
因此，当你想到这一点时，你就会处于一种非常无能为力的境地。
When you have nobody to support you, no upstanders, no one else around you to help you get out of the situation, what happens is that you feel fear.
当你没有人支持你，没有挺身而出的人，你周围没有人帮助你摆脱困境时，你会感到恐惧。
And what I felt, and it's been the emotion that I've struggled with my whole life, is shame.
我所感受到的，也是我一生都在与这种情绪作斗争的，就是羞耻。
Because what happens when you're bullied often is that you are made to feel like you are not worthy.
因为当你经常被欺负时，你会觉得自己不值得。
It's diminished self-worth.
这是自我价值的降低。
Because I've got power over you.
因为我对你有权力。
I'm going to do whatever the hell I want to you.
我会对你做任何我想做的事。
I'm going to say whatever I want to say.
我想说啥就说啥。
I'm going to spit on you.
我要向你吐口水。
I'm going to throw you into the locker.
我要把你扔进储物柜里。
I'm going to do crazy stuff, which is what happened to me.
我要做一些疯狂的事情，这就是发生在我身上的事情。
And guess what?
你猜怎么着？
There's nothing you can do about it.
你对此无能为力。
And when you're in an environment where nobody does anything about it, it creates despair.
当你处于一个没有人采取任何行动的环境中时，就会产生绝望。
So you can see how there's a lot of emotions there.
所以你可以看到那里有很多情绪。
And I'll tell you right now, one of my hardest memories of being a student when I was around 10 years old, is that I remember being in a classroom in math, and I was wearing a vest, like a down vest as a protection.
我现在就告诉你，我10岁左右当学生时最痛苦的记忆之一就是我记得在数学教室里，我穿着一件背心，就像羽绒背心一样作为保护。
It was my thing to hold onto, my little vest was going to be protective of me.
这是我要抓住的东西，我的小背心会保护我。
The only problem was I had two bullies sitting on either side of me, and what they did throughout the entire class was they used pen, and they just wrote things about me on my jacket.
唯一的问题是我的两边坐着两个恶霸，他们在整个课堂上所做的就是用笔，他们只是在我的夹克上写下关于我的事情。
And I can still remember, like you're sitting across from me, you being my teacher, and I can still remember locking eyes with my teacher and him just looking away.
我仍然记得，就像你坐在我对面，你是我的老师，我仍然记得与我的老师四目相对，而他只是移开视线。
And that feeling that you have of complete despair.
还有那种完全绝望的感觉。
Like, how is it that I'm not being protected by this adult in my community?
比如，为什么我没有受到社区中这个成年人的保护？
And so that's the issue that we're trying to solve for.
这就是我们正在努力解决的问题。
Now, I could make all kinds of excuses about the teacher.
现在，我可以为老师找各种借口了。
Maybe he didn't really notice.
也许他真的没有注意到。
I don't buy it because it was repeated over time, and it was happening a lot.
我不买它，因为随着时间的推移，这种情况不断重复，而且发生了很多次。
I could also say that maybe he misread my facial expression.
我也可以说，也许他误读了我的面部表情。
I'm not buying that either.
我也不买那个。
I think it was either he had a mindset, this is a rite of passage and you got to toughen up, kiddo, or you're not going to survive in your Clifton High School.
我认为要么是他有一种心态，这是一个成人仪式，你必须坚强起来，孩子，否则你就无法在克利夫顿高中生存。
Or another point is that he just was like, "I have no idea what to do about it, and I'm just going to let it go." None of those are an option for me anymore.
或者另一点是，他只是想，“我不知道该怎么办，我就放手吧。”这些对我来说都不再是一个选择。
It's just not acceptable.
这是不可接受的。
And so we need to teach people skills.
因此，我们需要教授人们技能。
People need to be emotionally perceptive.
人们需要有情感洞察力。
Emotions are signals.
情绪是信号。
That's an important point of this conversation.
这是本次谈话的一个重要观点。
My facial expression, which was probably one of depression, fear, and shame, which is not one of a big smile in general.
我的面部表情可能是一种沮丧、恐惧和羞愧，而不是一般的灿烂笑容。
Obviously, there's variability.
显然，存在可变性。
But point is that it's pretty clear when you're wearing a jacket and sitting like this in your classroom with a hoodie on, doing your work, and people are writing on you, you're not in a good place.
但重点是，很明显，当你穿着夹克，穿着连帽衫坐在教室里做作业，而人们在你身上写字时，你的处境并不好。
How that perception of my experience, my emotion was not a signal to do something blows my mind.
对我的经历、我的情绪的感知并不是做某事的信号，这让我大吃一惊。
It blows my mind.
这让我大吃一惊。
I'm just saying, I can't imagine an adult being in a situation with a child that is being treated that way and not thinking action.
我只是说，我无法想象一个成年人面对一个受到这种对待的孩子而不考虑采取行动。
But yet we see it all the time.
但我们却时常看到它。
All the time we see it.
我们一直都看到它。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Even nowadays.
即使在今天。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
All the time.
一直以来。
By the way, the research shows that bullying has not really decreased in the last 30, 40 years.
顺便说一句，研究表明，在过去的 30、40 年里，欺凌行为并没有真正减少。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Really?
真的吗？
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
No. It has not.
不，还没有。
It's pretty much about a third of middle school, high school kids get bullied each day in school.
大约有三分之一的初中生、高中生每天在学校遭受欺凌。
And so this is the point of my work, which is that a lot of the programs out there are like, "Let's create school rules All right, who's going to follow these rules?
所以这就是我工作的重点，很多项目都是这样的，“让我们制定学校规则好吧，谁来遵守这些规则？
How are rules teaching people skills?
规则如何教授人们的技能？
It's not working.
它不起作用。
My whole thinking about this is that we need to teach the things that we've been talking about, empathy, perspective taking, doing role plays, having people understand what it feels like to be in that situation.
我对此的全部想法是，我们需要教授我们一直在谈论的事情，同理心、换位思考、进行角色扮演，让人们理解在那种情况下的感觉。
Like you said, you've never been bullied, right?
就像你说的，你从来没有被欺负过，对吧？
And never have bullied, which is great for you, which means it might be harder for you to understand that because the empathy for you might be a little tougher.
而且从来没有欺负过人，这对你来说很好，这意味着你可能更难理解这一点，因为对你的同理心可能会更难一些。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
That's part of the reason I asked the question.
这就是我问这个问题的部分原因。
I was debating to myself whether or not I'd ask it in that way, because I didn't want to come across as insensitive.
我心里在犹豫要不要这样问，因为我不想给人留下麻木不仁的印象。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
No. It's not like you care.
不，你并不关心。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Precisely because I have sat on neither side of the bullying equation, that it's kind of a foreign thing to me.
正是因为我没有站在欺凌等式的任何一边，所以这对我来说有点陌生。
It also makes me realize, and especially now after what you just said, that while I was in high school, I'm guessing there was a lot of bullying going around.
这也让我意识到，尤其是在你刚才所说之后，当我在高中时，我猜周围存在很多欺凌行为。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
I'm sure you might have witnessed it.
我相信你可能已经亲眼目睹了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I missed it.
我错过了。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I had some friends that could definitely be classified as misfits.
我有一些朋友绝对可以被归类为不合群的人。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I think looking back, they hung out with my group of friends because we were into different things.
我想回想起来，他们和我的一群朋友一起出去玩是因为我们喜欢不同的事情。
Me, meaning my peers, grew up in the John Hughes film era where you had the jocks versus-
我，指的是我的同龄人，在约翰·休斯的电影时代长大，在那里，运动员们对抗——
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
the hippies versus the skateboarders versus the-
嬉皮士与滑板手与-
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
The burnouts.
倦怠。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, exactly.
是的，完全正确。
And I had my crowd, and was friends with a number of people outside that crowd, but there were these kids that would hang around us that weren't into the same things that we were.
我有我的人群，并且与人群之外的许多人是朋友，但有些孩子会在我们周围闲逛，他们的兴趣与我们不同。
And I am looking back and realizing now that they did it because they were definitely safe with us.
现在我回想起来，意识到他们这样做是因为他们和我们在一起绝对安全。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Well, that's your fundamental-
嗯，这就是你的根本——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
To be fair, we could be a little scary if we wanted to be, but we weren't the type to go out and be scary.
公平地说，如果我们愿意的话，我们可能会有点可怕，但我们不是那种出去吓人的人。
So I think they must have sensed some safety with us.
所以我认为他们一定感受到了我们的安全。
And I actually have very fond memories of those kids, and know some of them still now.
事实上，我对那些孩子有非常美好的回忆，并且现在仍然认识他们中的一些人。
So yeah, I asked that way in part because I realized I missed a lot.
所以是的，我这样问的部分原因是我意识到我错过了很多。
Well, Lord knows I missed a lot of what was going on in high school for other reasons.
好吧，上帝知道我因为其他原因错过了很多高中发生的事情。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But I just missed a lot of this.
但我错过了很多这样的事情。
And I think even in academic culture as an adult, not now, but I certainly witnessed bullying at meetings, that was more demonstrative, where people would make fun of people in general in a way that I felt suppressed the likelihood that people would ask questions, which is a kind of different form of posturing and bullying, right?
我认为即使在成年人的学术文化中，现在也不是，但我确实在会议上目睹了欺凌行为，这更具示范性，人们会以一种我觉得压制了人们提问的可能性的方式取笑一般人，这是一种不同形式的姿态和欺凌，对吗？
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
100%.
100%。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That makes students afraid to raise their hand and ask questions at meetings, for instance.
例如，这使得学生不敢在会议上举手提问。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
It's intimidation.
这是恐吓。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Intimidation.
恐吓。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
And I experienced that too.
我也经历过。
I remember when I was younger in my career, I was giving a speech and people were like, "Oh, he does the field research, like in school.
我记得当我职业生涯年轻时，我正在发表演讲，人们会说，“哦，他做了实地研究，就像在学校一样。
That's soft science." And I was very fortunate, and I was hurt by it because it's like, by the way, doing your experiment in the laboratory with your sophomores in college is a lot easier than trying to randomize 60 schools in Brooklyn and Queens, New York, and trying to find effects of your program.
这就是软科学。”我很幸运，但也因此受到了伤害，因为顺便说一句，在实验室里与大学二年级的学生一起做实验，比尝试随机抽取纽约布鲁克林和皇后区的 60 所学校并试图找出项目的效果要容易得多。
It's hard research.
研究起来很辛苦啊
Really difficult.
真的很难。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Even just working on humans is hard.
即使只是对人类进行研究也很困难。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
For those of us that have worked on both animal models, which I no longer do, and humans, which I've done and do, working on humans is that much harder, for all sorts of reasons.
对于我们这些曾经研究过动物模型（我不再做）和人类（我曾经做过）的人来说，出于各种原因，研究人类要困难得多。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They're not on the same genetic background.
他们没有相同的遗传背景。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You can't just put them in their cage, take them out, different light-dark cycles, some slept well, some didn't sleep well.
你不能只是把它们关在笼子里，再把它们拿出来，不同的明暗周期，有的睡得好，有的睡得不好。
There are issues with animal work as well, but yeah, just even embracing human research at all is an immense challenge.
动物研究也存在问题，但是，是的，即使只是接受人类研究也是一个巨大的挑战。
So the idea that it would be viewed as soft is just laughable to me.
因此，认为它会被视为软弱的想法对我来说是可笑的。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
But I was very fortunate that there was a very senior professor, his name was Ed Zigler, he was one of the co-founders of Head Start.
但我很幸运有一位非常资深的教授，他的名字叫Ed Zigler，他是Head Start的联合创始人之一。
And he became my adult Uncle Marvin.
他成了我成年的马文叔叔。
And I'm giving this speech and all these people are trying to really demolish the presentation and my research.
我正在发表这次演讲，而所有这些人都在试图真正摧毁我的演讲和我的研究。
And he was revered because he was this famous developmental psychologist, and he just stood up and he's like, he slams the table, he's like, "I like this research." I'm like, "And I love you," because I needed you to stand up for me because I'm the little postdoc here.
他之所以受到尊敬，是因为他是一位著名的发展心理学家，他站起来，拍着桌子，说，“我喜欢这项研究。”我说，“我爱你”，因为我需要你为我挺身而出，因为我是这里的小博士后。
I need support.
我需要支持。
And so my argument is that it's a human right to be protected.
所以我的观点是，这是一项受到保护的人权。
Now, I could protect myself now.
现在，我可以保护自己了。
Of course, I can.
当然，我可以。
But I'll give you another example of this.
但我会给你另一个例子。
Gosh, this is a really tough one for me.
天哪，这对我来说真的很难。
I would say eight years ago, I was giving a speech at our university to a bunch of funders.
我想说八年前，我在我们大学向一群资助者发表演讲。
And it was me and another professor who I will not name, who is bigger than I am, and bigger personality than I am, and has a kind of rough reputation of being kind of a bully.
那是我和另一位我不愿透露姓名的教授，他比我高大，性格也比我大，而且有一种恶霸的恶名。
I went on first.
我先走了。
Now, granted, I'm a pretty good presenter.
现在，理所当然，我是一个非常好的演讲者。
And he was going on after.
然后他继续说下去。
And I just thank you, I went to the side.
我只是谢谢你，我就走到一边了。
He gets on.
他继续前进。
Now, I actually did a presentation on bullying, as a matter, that's why I'm thinking about it.
现在，我实际上做了一个关于欺凌的演讲，这就是我思考这个问题的原因。
All right, I get off stage, I'm sitting with everybody else.
好吧，我下台，和其他人坐在一起。
He gets on stage and changes his presentation and shows a video of a kid being horrifically bullied.
他走上舞台，改变了演讲方式，播放了一段孩子被可怕欺凌的视频。
Which has nothing to do with his research.
这与他的研究无关。
And I'm thinking, "What the hell's going on here?" And he plays the video, he's doing that, laughing to himself, and he's like, "I just wanted to let people know that was Mark before he got his black belt." And I'm like-
我在想，“这到底是怎么回事？”他播放视频，他一边这么做，一边自言自语，他说，“我只是想让人们知道那是马克在获得黑带之前的表现。”我就像——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What a dick.
真是个混蛋。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
It was not cool.
这并不酷。
And I felt like, firstly, what was really interesting to me as a psychologist is that in that moment, I regressed to 10 years old.
我觉得，首先，作为一名心理学家，我真正感兴趣的是，在那一刻，我回到了 10 岁。
It was psychologically all the memories of all the feelings and the bodily reactions.
从心理上讲，这是所有感觉和身体反应的所有记忆。
I was like, boom.
我当时想，繁荣。
And then luckily, I do have a fifth degree black belt.
幸运的是，我确实拥有五段黑带。
Luckily, I have a PhD in psychology.
幸运的是，我拥有心理学博士学位。
Luckily, I've had 10 years of therapy and I've been teaching emotional intelligence for 25 years.
幸运的是，我已经接受了 10 年的治疗，并且已经教授情商 25 年了。
I'm like, "Mark You're 50, you've got a black belt.
我说，“马克，你已经 50 岁了，你已经是黑带了。
It took me a lot to recover.
我花了很多时间才恢复过来。
And I had to make a choice because I'm still intimidated by that.
我必须做出选择，因为我仍然对此感到害怕。
And it makes me sad to even admit it, because I don't like that I am at this place in my life where I still can be intimidated by the bullies, but it's how I feel, and I have to just accept that.
And it makes me sad to even admit it, because I don't like that I am at this place in my life where I still can be intimidated by the bullies, but it's how I feel, and I have to just accept that.
And I decided, though, in that presentation, was like, "Marc, you got to say something.
不过，我决定，在那次演讲中，“马克，你必须说点什么。
You're going to prove to yourself that you can do it." And so after he was over, I waited a little while, and I just went up to him and I said, "I have no idea what motivated you to show that video.
你将向自己证明你能做到。”他结束后，我等了一会儿，然后走到他面前说：“我不知道是什么促使你展示那个视频。
But number one, it was not cool.
但第一，这并不酷。
And number two, it can never happen again.
第二，这种事永远不会再发生。
Never." And I can cry now thinking about it, because it was very difficult for me, even as an adult.
从来没有。”现在想起来我都会哭，因为这对我来说非常困难，即使作为一个成年人也是如此。
And of course, then I ran away.
当然，然后我就逃跑了。
I didn't run away.
我没有逃跑。
But I took my breaths.
但我屏住了呼吸。
I felt proud that I was able to handle myself, which may sound strange to some people.
我为自己能够处理好自己而感到自豪，这对某些人来说可能听起来很奇怪。
Being an adult who's a psychologist, who has a fifth-degree black belt, I have to reinforce that now to make myself feel strong.
作为一名成年心理学家，拥有五段黑带，我现在必须强化这一点，让自己感觉坚强。
But it was such a powerful-- It was a great moment for me.
但它是如此强大——这对我来说是一个伟大的时刻。
One of having the courage to face the bully.
其中之一就是有勇气面对欺凌。
And interestingly enough, the guy never-- He treated me like I was the president of the university after that.
有趣的是，在那之后，那个人从来没有像对待大学校长一样对待我。
And so my point of telling that story is that I was 50.
所以我讲这个故事的目的是我当时 50 岁。
That's old to cultivate the skills that I needed to be able to deal with that very difficult situation.
培养我应对这种非常困难的情况所需的技能已经很老了。
And my dream is that, I tell people I'm so envious of that kindergartner, because I've been lucky enough to be the developer of the curriculum, but I didn't live it.
And my dream is that, I tell people I'm so envious of that kindergartner, because I've been lucky enough to be the developer of the curriculum, but I didn't live it.
And so talking about neuroscience, I'm not wired like that five-year-old is going to be wired, because they're growing up in an environment where every day they're checking in on their feelings.
And so talking about neuroscience, I'm not wired like that five-year-old is going to be wired, because they're growing up in an environment where every day they're checking in on their feelings.
It reminds me of just another story.
这让我想起了另一个故事。
I was in a school in Brooklyn, and this one school's been using our program for a decade.
我在布鲁克林的一所学校就读，这所学校已经使用我们的程序十年了。
And the kids wanted to meet me.
孩子们想见我。
And the principal of the school, who's my former student, he said, "You can ask Marc anything." And it's like, "Why do you do this?
学校的校长，也是我以前的学生，他说，“你可以问马克任何事情。”就像，“你为什么要这样做？
And what motivates you?" And I was telling these kids the story of my childhood.
是什么激励着你？”我正在向这些孩子们讲述我童年的故事。
And this one girl, she must've been in sixth grade, she said to me, "It's really hard for me to understand your experience." I said, "Why?" She's like, "I've been going to this school since I'm in kindergarten, and I can't think of a day that someone didn't ask me how I was feeling." It's powerful.
而这个女孩，她一定是六年级的，她对我说，“我真的很难理解你的经历。”我说：“为什么？”她说，“我从幼儿园起就一直在这所学校上学，我想不出有一天没有人问我感觉如何。”它很强大。
When you think about her neural development, all the pathways that are being built for this person or these children in thousands of schools to be learning their feelings, understanding why they're feeling the way they're feeling, to interact with other kids and see how they're feeling and how they express their feelings and how they deal with their feelings and learning strategies together in a cooperative environment to cultivate and how that gets more complex with development.
When you think about her neural development, all the pathways that are being built for this person or these children in thousands of schools to be learning their feelings, understanding why they're feeling the way they're feeling, to interact with other kids and see how they're feeling and how they express their feelings and how they deal with their feelings and learning strategies together in a cooperative environment to cultivate and how that gets more complex with development.
Because in kindergarten, you're learning about sadness and disappointment, but then you're learning about despair and alienation and exclusion.
因为在幼儿园，你正在学习悲伤和失望，但随后你正在学习绝望、疏远和排斥。
And that's what makes this work so interesting, is that these concepts evolve throughout our lives.
这就是这项工作如此有趣的原因，因为这些概念在我们的一生中不断演变。
Think about it.
想一想。
What anger meant to me when I was five is not what it meant to me when I was 10 or 15 or 25 or now 55.
当我五岁的时候，愤怒对我的意义与我在 10 岁、15 岁、25 岁或现在 55 岁时的意义不同。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Your description of confronting this bully.
你对面对这个恶霸的描述。
I don't even want to call them your colleague because-
我什至不想称他们为你的同事，因为-
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
there's nothing collegial about that.
这与大学无关。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
I agree.
我同意。
I thought it was an embarrassment for the university.
我认为这对大学来说是一种耻辱。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But more importantly, the fact that you were able to confront them is, to me, and I think to anybody that hears that story, the definition of courage.
But more importantly, the fact that you were able to confront them is, to me, and I think to anybody that hears that story, the definition of courage.
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because it's in the moments where we feel like this big and we're collapsed on ourselves and we don't know where the resources are and we don't have somebody sitting there holding our shoulder saying, "Listen, I'm going to go talk to them," or, "Let's go talk to them." That you did that for yourself.
因为在那些时刻，我们感觉自己如此伟大，我们崩溃了，我们不知道资源在哪里，我们没有人坐在那里握住我们的肩膀说，“听着，我要去和他们谈谈，”或者，“让我们去和他们谈谈。”你是为了自己才这么做的。
You internalized the lessons you'd learned initially from your uncle-
你把最初从你叔叔那里学到的教训内化了——
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and brought that forward.
并提出了这一点。
And I think anyone hearing that story, it's obvious to them that is a great act of courage.
我想任何听到这个故事的人都会明白这是一个伟大的勇气之举。
And it's an inspirational one, too, and a reminder that for people that are being bullied as adults as well, that it's important to calmly but directly-
And it's an inspirational one, too, and a reminder that for people that are being bullied as adults as well, that it's important to calmly but directly-
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Exactly
正是如此
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and firmly express.
并坚决表达。
You basically gave him a no. Like a really strong no. Like you would to a puppy that was putting itself in danger or something, except in this case, it's a human being-
你基本上给了他“不”。就像一个非常强烈的不。就像你对待一只将自己置于危险之中的小狗或其他什么一样，但在这种情况下，它是一个人类 -
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Exactly
正是如此
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
who had agency, and so he needed a sharp-- He needed to be-
他有代理权，所以他需要一个敏锐的——他需要——
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
He needed it
他需要它
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
punished slightly.
受到轻微处罚。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
He needed to be educated about boundaries and about how this game of being a colleague is played.
他需要接受有关界限以及如何玩同事游戏的教育。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, certainly not rewarded.
嗯，当然没有奖励。
You're right.
你说得对。
Punished isn't the right word.
惩罚这个词不太恰当。
He certainly, whatever dopamine hit he got from that-
他当然，无论他从中得到多少多巴胺——
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
I think part of the-
我认为一部分——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
antic was just that needed to be retracted.
滑稽的只是需要撤回。
That needed to be taken away from him.
那需要从他身上夺走。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
Yeah, and I think that we should spend a minute on punishment because it never works.
是的，我认为我们应该花一点时间来讨论惩罚，因为它永远不会起作用。
Unless it's consistent, harsh, and nobody wants to be punished because it doesn't feel good and it doesn't teach people anything.
除非它是一致的、严厉的，没有人愿意受到惩罚，因为它感觉不好，也没有教给人们任何东西。
Go to your room.
去你的房间吧。
What does that teach me?
这教会了我什么？
It teaches me to go to my room and ruminate and get angrier.
它教会我去我的房间思考并变得更加愤怒。
I've been in schools that are not using our model.
我所在的学校没有使用我们的模型。
I'll never forget this one moment where I was in a principal's office.
我永远不会忘记我在校长办公室的那一刻。
A kid had given the teacher the finger, and he got thrown to the office, and it was a Tuesday And it was Tuesday before, the next week was going to be a holiday break.
一个孩子对老师竖起了中指，然后他被扔到了办公室，那是星期二，之前是星期二，下周将是假期。
And it was a two-day suspension for giving the teacher the finger, but that was going to be till Thursday, and then Friday after that, there'd be a week break.
因向老师竖中指而被停学两天，但要持续到周四，然后是周五，之后会有一周的休息时间。
And I literally heard the principal say, "Let's just make it three days so I wouldn't have to see this kid for 10 days." And I'm thinking, what is this person learning about empathy, about self-regulation, about emotional awareness?
我确实听到校长说：“我们就三天吧，这样我十天内就不用见到这个孩子了。”我在想，这个人在同理心、自我调节和情绪意识方面学到了什么？
They're learning nothing.
他们什么也没学到。
They're going to be thrown out with no skills in an environment that's probably not supportive.
他们将在一个可能不支持的环境中被抛弃，没有任何技能。
And so I just think this has to change.
所以我认为这种情况必须改变。
And it still does happen, not as often, thank goodness.
谢天谢地，这种事仍然会发生，只是不那么频繁。
I'm a prevention scientist, so I don't want to wait until everyone has an anxiety disorder and everyone's been bullied.
我是一名预防科学家，所以我不想等到每个人都患有焦虑症并且每个人都被欺负了。
I want to cultivate a society where people have the skills they need to navigate their emotions and know how to build healthy relationships, and make sound decisions, and have good mental health, and achieve their dreams.
I want to cultivate a society where people have the skills they need to navigate their emotions and know how to build healthy relationships, and make sound decisions, and have good mental health, and achieve their dreams.
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it occurred to me just now that you're effectively doing what your uncle did for you, but for millions and millions of people.
我刚才突然想到，你实际上正在做你叔叔为你所做的事情，而且是为了数以百万计的人。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
God bless Uncle Marvin.
上帝保佑马文叔叔。
As you know now, the storyteller.
正如你现在所知，讲故事的人。
But one of the most profound moments of my career was just after I had written my book and I was on my book tour.
但我职业生涯中最深刻的时刻之一是在我写完书并开始巡回售书之后。
I'm in Westchester, New York, and I'm giving a speech, and I had never spoken about my uncle in that level of detail, nor my abuse, by the way.
我现在在纽约州威彻斯特，正在发表演讲，顺便说一句，我从未如此详细地谈论过我的叔叔，也从未谈论过我的虐待行为。
I talk about courage.
我谈论勇气。
It was not till 48, writing this book, that I decided, people ask me, "Why are you so passionate?" And I would say, I hated school.
直到 48 岁写这本书时，我才下定决心，人们问我：“你为什么这么热情？”我想说，我讨厌学校。
I was bullied, but I believe I was robbed of my emotional life as a child because of the abuse and my circumstances.
我被欺负了，但我相信，由于虐待和我的处境，我小时候的情感生活被剥夺了。
And I felt I needed to just share that a little bit.
我觉得我需要分享一点。
Not the focus, but I needed to be real.
不是焦点，但我需要真实。
So I'm sharing about Uncle Marvin, the sixth grade teacher from Monticello, New York State.
我要分享的是来自纽约州蒙蒂塞洛的六年级老师马文叔叔的故事。
And this guy has this, like that woman in the audience, he had an epiphany.
这个家伙有这个，就像观众席上的那位女士一样，他顿悟了。
He's like, "Are you talking about Marvin Moore, the sixth grade social studies teacher from Monticello, New York?" I'm like, "Yes." He's like, "Marc, you're not going to believe this, but your Uncle Marvin was my Uncle Marvin." I'm like, "Are you kidding me?" He's like, "Your uncle was my sixth grade teacher 45 years ago, and he's the reason why I teach." I was blown away.
他说，“你是在谈论来自纽约蒙蒂塞洛的六年级社会研究老师马文·摩尔吗？”我说：“是的。”他说，“马克，你不会相信这一点，但你的马文叔叔就是我的马文叔叔。”我想，“你在开玩笑吗？”他说，“45 年前，你叔叔是我六年级的老师，他是我教书的原因。”我被震撼了。
I was shaking, so excited that I never met one of my uncle's actual students because we worked when I was older.
我浑身发抖，太兴奋了，以至于我从来没有见过我叔叔真正的学生，因为我年纪大的时候我们都在工作。
He was older.
他年纪大了。
And so I said to the guy, "I've got to finish my speech, but can I interview you afterwards?" He's like, "Yeah." So I interview this guy, I have it on tape, 45 minutes, what he remembered about his sixth grade social studies class.
所以我对那个人说：“我必须完成我的演讲，但是我可以稍后采访你吗？”他说：“是的。”所以我采访了这个人，我录下了他对六年级社会研究课的记忆，45 分钟。
I have no memories of my social studies class.
我对社会研究课没有任何记忆。
This guy remembered details of my uncle's facial expression, body language, the way he taught feelings, the way he taught history.
这家伙记得我叔叔的面部表情、肢体语言、他教授感情的方式、他教授历史的方式的细节。
It was on and on and on.
它一直持续不断。
But here's the kicker.
但这是关键所在。
So we're done with this conversation, and he looks at me and he's like, "Marc, it's really clear that your uncle had a profound influence on your life.
我们结束了这次谈话，他看着我，说道：“马克，很明显，你的叔叔对你的生活产生了深远的影响。
And so I just have one question for you.
我只想问你一个问题。
For whom are you an Uncle Marvin?" And it just like, "Oh." I'm the professor here.
你是谁的马文叔叔？”就像，“哦”。我是这里的教授。
I'm the one who does the teaching.
我是负责教学的人。
I do the research.
我做研究。
You don't ask me questions like that.
你别问我这样的问题。
And it was so eye-opening for me about just my life in terms of how I spend my time with my own family, and am I giving that non-judgment?
就我如何与家人共度时光而言，我的生活让我大开眼界，我是否给予了不评判？
Am I giving that active listening?
我有积极倾听吗？
Am I showing my empathy and compassion?
我是否表现出同理心和同情心？
I'm like, "I'm a workaholic.
我想，“我是一个工作狂。
I write the papers." I'm not living it.
我写论文。”我不是这样生活的。
And it really has made a profound difference for me.
这确实对我产生了深远的影响。
I really try hard to be an Uncle Marvin.
我真的很努力成为马文叔叔。
And it's tough because time.
这很艰难，因为时间。
All the factors that we talked about earlier.
我们之前讨论过的所有因素。
But gosh, if we only had more of those in our world.
但是天哪，如果我们的世界里有更多这样的东西就好了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, it's absolutely clear to me that you're extremely passionate about this mission of teaching people what emotions are and how to work with them, giving them really clear systems to do that, tools that they can do that.
嗯，我非常清楚，你们对教导人们情绪是什么以及如何处理情绪的使命充满热情，为他们提供真正清晰的系统来做到这一点，为他们提供可以做到这一点的工具。
And I think it's fair to say that you answered your own question in my opinion, if I may, that through your Uncle Marvin to you, and through the work that you do, and through your public education effort, which includes your graciousness in coming here and sharing with us what you know, what you believe people can benefit from, and it's absolutely clear to me that people can so benefit from these tools and what you put into your book, which does include some very personal things that, I must say, are entirely couched toward the reader understanding and learning how they can make themselves and others and the world a better place.
我认为可以公平地说，在我看来，你回答了你自己的问题，如果可以的话，通过你的马文叔叔对你，通过你所做的工作，通过你的公共教育努力，其中包括你来到这里与我们分享你所知道的、你相信人们可以从中受益的仁慈，我绝对清楚，人们可以从这些工具和你放入书中的内容中受益，其中确实包括一些非常个人的东西，我必须说，这些东西完全是针对读者了解并学习如何使自己、他人和世界变得更美好。
It's really extraordinary.
这真是非同寻常。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
I appreciate that.
我很欣赏这一点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The rippling out effect is not a sufficient way to describe it.
连锁反应不足以描述它。
It's really an enormous amplification of the hard work you've done, and I'm just really, really in awe of the fact that you've taken hard experiences and transmuted those into so much good.
这确实是对你所做的辛勤工作的巨大放大，我真的非常非常敬畏你将艰难的经历转化为如此美好的事实。
And so on behalf of myself and everyone listening and watching, I just want to extend an enormous debt of gratitude.
因此，我谨代表我自己以及所有收听和观看的人表达巨大的感激之情。
This is truly important work, and I don't say that lightly.
这是一项真正重要的工作，我不会轻易这么说。
Dr. Marc Brackett:
马克·布拉克特博士：
I really appreciate that.
我真的很感激。
Thank you.
谢谢。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Marc Brackett.
感谢您参加今天与马克·布拉克特博士的讨论。
To learn more about his work and to find links to his book, "Permission to Feel," which by the way, I highly recommend, as well as other links to his laboratory and other resources, please see the links in the show note captions.
要了解有关他的工作的更多信息，并找到他的书“Permission to Feel”的链接（顺便说一句，我强烈推荐这本书），以及他的实验室和其他资源的其他链接，请参阅节目注释标题中的链接。
If you're learning from and/or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel.
如果您正在学习和/或喜欢此播客，请订阅我们的 YouTube 频道。
That's a terrific zero-cost way to support us.
这是支持我们的绝佳零成本方式。
Another terrific zero-cost way to support us is to follow the podcast on both Spotify and Apple.
另一种很棒的零成本支持方式是关注 Spotify 和 Apple 上的播客。
And on both Spotify and Apple, you can leave us up to a five-star review.
在 Spotify 和 Apple 上，您都可以给我们五星级的评价。
Please also check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode.
另请查看今天节目开头和整个节目中提到的赞助商。
That's the best way to support this podcast.
这是支持这个播客的最佳方式。
If you have questions for me or comments about the podcast or topics or guests you'd like me to consider for the Huberman Lab Podcast, please put those in the comments section on YouTube.
如果您对我有疑问或对播客有意见，或者希望我在 Huberman 实验室播客中考虑的主题或嘉宾，请将这些意见放入 YouTube 的评论部分。
I do read all the comments.
我确实阅读了所有评论。
For those of you that haven't heard, I have a new book coming out.
对于那些还没有听说过的人，我即将出版一本新书。
It's my very first book.
这是我的第一本书。
It's entitled "Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body." This is a book that I've been working on for more than five years, and that's based on more than 30 years of research and experience, and it covers protocols for everything from sleep to exercise to stress control, protocols related to focus and motivation, and of course, I provide the scientific substantiation for the protocols that are included.
它的标题是“协议：人体操作手册”。这是我花了五年多时间编写的一本书，它基于 30 多年的研究和经验，涵盖了从睡眠到运动到压力控制的各个方面的方案，以及与注意力和动机相关的方案，当然，我还为所包含的方案提供了科学依据。
The book is now available by presale at protocolsbook.com.
该书现已在protocolbook.com 上预售。
There you can find links to various vendors.
在那里您可以找到各个供应商的链接。
You can pick the one that you like best.
您可以选择您最喜欢的一个。
Again, the book is called "Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body." If you're not already following me on social media, I'm Huberman Lab on all social media channels.
同样，这本书的名字是“协议：人体操作手册”。如果您还没有在社交媒体上关注我，我是所有社交媒体渠道上的 Huberman Lab。
So that's Instagram, X, formerly known as Twitter, Threads, Facebook, and LinkedIn.
这就是 Instagram、X，以前称为 Twitter、Threads、Facebook 和 LinkedIn。
And on all those platforms, I discuss science and science-related tools, some of which overlaps with the content of the Huberman Lab podcast, but much of which is distinct from the content of the Huberman Lab podcast.
在所有这些平台上，我讨论科学和科学相关的工具，其中一些与胡伯曼实验室播客的内容重叠，但其中大部分与胡伯曼实验室播客的内容不同。
Again, that's Huberman Lab on all social media platforms.
再说一次，这就是所有社交媒体平台上的 Huberman Lab。
And if you haven't already subscribed to our Neural Network Newsletter, the Neural Network Newsletter is a zero-cost monthly newsletter that includes podcast summaries as well as protocols in the form of brief one to three-page PDFs, protocols that cover things like learning and neuroplasticity, how to optimize and regulate your dopamine, how to improve your sleep.
如果您还没有订阅我们的神经网络时事通讯，神经网络时事通讯是一份零成本的月度时事通讯，其中包括播客摘要以及一到三页 PDF 形式的协议，协议涵盖学习和神经可塑性、如何优化和调节多巴胺、如何改善睡眠等内容。
Again, all available, completely zero cost.
再次强调，一切可用，完全零成本。
You simply go to hubermanlab.com, go to the Menu tab, scroll down to Newsletter, and provide your email.
您只需访问 hubermanlab.com，转到“菜单”选项卡，向下滚动到“时事通讯”，然后提供您的电子邮件即可。
And I should point out that we do not share your email with anybody.
我应该指出，我们不会与任何人分享您的电子邮件。
Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion all about emotions with Dr. Marc Brackett.
再次感谢您参加今天与马克·布拉克特博士有关情绪的讨论。
And last but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.
最后但并非最不重要的一点是，感谢您对科学的兴趣。