Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett: How to Understand Emotions

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.

欢迎来到休伯曼实验室播客，我们在这里讨论科学和基于科学的日常生活工具。

I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.

我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。

My guest today is Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett.

今天我的客人是丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett is a distinguished professor of psychology at Northeastern University.

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士是东北大学杰出的心理学教授。

She also holds appointments at Harvard Medical School and Massachusetts General Hospital, where she is the chief scientific officer of the Center of Law, Brain, and Behavior.

她还在哈佛医学院和马萨诸塞州总医院担任法律、大脑和行为中心的首席科学官。

Dr. Barrett is considered one of the top world experts in the study of emotions, and her laboratory has studied emotions using approaches both from the fields of psychology and neuroscience.

巴雷特博士被认为是情绪研究领域的世界顶级专家之一，她的实验室利用心理学和神经科学领域的方法研究情绪。

Indeed, today you will learn about the neural circuits and the psychological underpinnings of what we call emotions.

事实上，今天您将了解我们所说的情绪的神经回路和心理基础。

You will learn what emotions truly are and how to interpret different emotional states.

您将了解什么是真正的情绪以及如何解释不同的情绪状态。

You will also learn how emotions relate to things like motivation, consciousness, and affect.

您还将了解情绪如何与动机、意识和情感等事物相关。

Affect is a term that refers to a more general state of brain and body that increases or decreases the probability that you will experience certain emotions.

情感是一个术语，指的是大脑和身体的更一般状态，它会增加或减少您体验某些情绪的可能性。

During today's discussion, Dr. Feldman Barrett also teaches us how to regulate our emotions effectively, as well as how to better interpret the emotional states of others.

在今天的讨论中，Feldman Barrett博士还教我们如何有效调节自己的情绪，以及如何更好地解读他人的情绪状态。

You will also learn about the powerful relationship that exists between our emotional states and the movement of our body.

您还将了解我们的情绪状态和身体运动之间存在的强大关系。

In fact, much of today's discussion is both practical and will be highly informative in terms of the mechanisms underlying emotions, and it is likely to also be surprising to you in a number of ways.

事实上，今天的大部分讨论既实用，又在情绪背后的机制方面提供了丰富的信息，而且它也可能在很多方面让你感到惊讶。

It certainly was surprising to me.

这确实让我感到惊讶。

I've been a close follower of Dr. Feldman Barrett's work over many years now and have always found it to be tremendously informative.

多年来，我一直是费尔德曼·巴雷特博士 (Feldman Barrett) 博士的工作的密切关注者，并且一直发现它提供了大量信息。

And when I say her work, I mean both her academic published papers as well as her public lectures that she's given and her two fabulous books on emotions and the brain.

当我说她的作品时，我指的是她发表的学术论文、她所做的公开讲座以及她关于情感和大脑的两本精彩的书籍。

The first one entitled "How Emotions Are Made," and the second book, which includes information about emotions but extends beyond that, entitled "Seven and a Half Lessons About the Brain." As you'll see from today's discussion, Dr. Feldman Barrett is not only extremely informed about the neuroscience and psychology of emotion, she's also fabulously good at teaching us that information in clear terms and in actionable ways.

第一本书的标题是《情绪是如何产生的》，第二本书包含有关情绪的信息，但又超出了这一范围，题为《关于大脑的七个半课程》。正如您从今天的讨论中看到的那样，费尔德曼·巴雷特博士不仅对神经科学和情感心理学非常了解，而且还非常擅长以清晰的术语和可操作的方式向我们传授这些信息。

You'll also notice several times she pushes back on my questions, in some cases even telling me that my questions are ill-posed.

你还会注意到她多次反驳我的问题，有时甚至告诉我我的问题不恰当。

And I have to tell you that I was absolutely delighted that she did that, because you'll see that every time she did that, it was with the clear purpose of putting more specificity on the question and thereby more specificity and clarity on the answer, which of course she delivers.

我必须告诉你，我非常高兴她这样做，因为你会看到，每次她这样做，都有明确的目的，让问题更加具体，从而使答案更加具体和清晰，当然，她给出了答案。

By the end of today's discussion, you will have both a broad and a deep understanding of what emotions are and their origins in our brain and body.

在今天的讨论结束时，您将对什么是情绪以及它们在我们的大脑和身体中的起源有一个广泛而深入的了解。

You will also have many practical tools with which to better understand and navigate emotional states.

您还将拥有许多实用工具来更好地理解和驾驭情绪状态。

And moreover, you will have many practical tools in order to increase your levels of motivation and better understand your various states of consciousness.

此外，您将拥有许多实用工具来提高您的动力水平并更好地了解您的各种意识状态。

Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.

在开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。

It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public.

然而，我的愿望和努力的一部分是向公众提供有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本消费者信息。

In keeping with that theme, I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast.

为了与这个主题保持一致，我要感谢今天播客的赞助商。

And now for my discussion with Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett.

现在我与 Lisa Feldman Barrett 博士进行讨论。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett, welcome.

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士，欢迎光临。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Oh, it's my pleasure to be here.

哦，我很高兴来到这里。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

I've wanted to talk to you for a very long time.

我想和你谈谈很久了。

I'd like to talk about emotions.

我想谈谈情感。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I think everyone has a sense somehow of what an emotion is.

我认为每个人都或多或少地知道什么是情绪。

Feeling happy, feeling sad, feeling excited, feeling curious perhaps is even an emotion.

感到高兴、感到悲伤、感到兴奋、感到好奇也许甚至是一种情绪。

I don't know.

我不知道。

You'll tell us.

你会告诉我们。

What are the core components?

核心部件有哪些？

What are the sort of macronutrients of an emotion?

情绪的常量营养素有哪些？

Because I know there's a debate about whether or not we should be talking about emotions versus states, but what is an emotion?

因为我知道关于我们是否应该谈论情绪与状态存在争议，但什么是情绪？

We all are familiar with what one feels like to us, but from a scientific perspective, how do you define an emotion?

我们都熟悉一个人的感受，但从科学的角度来看，如何定义一种情绪？

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Well, scientists debate about this.

好吧，科学家们对此争论不休。

Nobody in the last 150 years has ever been able to agree on what an emotion is.

在过去的 150 年里，没有人能够就什么是情感达成一致。

And I think from my perspective, the interesting but tricky bit is that any time you want to talk about what the basic building blocks are of emotion, none of those basic building blocks are specific to emotion.

我认为从我的角度来看，有趣但棘手的一点是，任何时候你想谈论情感的基本组成部分是什么，这些基本组成部分都不是特定于情感的。

So for example, there are a group of scientists who will tell you, "Well, an emotion is a coordinated response where you have a change in some physical state, a change in the brain, a change in the physical state, which leads you to make a particular facial expression." So you've got physiological changes in the body, changes in the brain, changes in the face or in motor movements, okay?

例如，有一群科学家会告诉你，“嗯，情绪是一种协调反应，你的某些身体状态发生变化，大脑发生变化，身体状态发生变化，这会导致你做出特定的面部表情。”所以你的身体发生了生理变化，大脑发生了变化，面部或运动发生了变化，好吗？

But that describes basically every moment of your life.

但这基本上描述了你生命中的每一个时刻。

Your face is always moving in some way.

你的脸总是以某种方式移动。

If it wasn't, you would look like an avatar, basically.

如果不是，基本上你看起来就像一个化身。

So we're constantly engaged in movements, and those movements have to be coordinated with the physiological changes in the body because whether we're in a state that we would conventionally call emotion or not, because the physiology is supporting the glucose and the oxygen and all the things that you need to make movements of your body.

所以我们不断地进行运动，这些运动必须与身体的生理变化相协调，因为无论我们是否处于通常称为情绪的状态，因为生理机能支持葡萄糖和氧气以及身体运动所需的所有物质。

And of course, all these movements are being coordinated by your brain.

当然，所有这些动作都是由你的大脑协调的。

So of course, there's a coordinated set of features.

当然，有一组协调的功能。

That doesn't really describe how emotions are distinct from any other experience that you have.

这并不能真正描述情绪与你所拥有的任何其他经历的不同之处。

But the claim was, for a really long time, that there would be diagnostic patterns Okay, so when something triggered fear, you would have an increase in heart rate, and you would have a propensity to run away or to freeze or not just to fall asleep, although that is something animals do when they are faced with a predator.

但在很长一段时间里，人们都认为会有诊断模式。好吧，所以当某些事情引发恐惧时，你的心率会加快，你会倾向于逃跑、僵住或不仅仅是睡着，尽管这是动物面对捕食者时所做的事情。

But that's not part of the Western stereotype for fear, so that wasn't what scientists were looking for.

但这并不是西方人对恐惧的刻板印象，因此这也不是科学家们所寻找的。

And also that you would make a particular facial expression, which was presumed to be the universal expression of fear, where you widen your eyes and you gasp like .

而且你还会做出一种特殊的面部表情，这被认为是恐惧的普遍表情，你睁大眼睛，喘着粗气。

That set of facial movements in other cultures, like in Melanesian culture, for example, is a symbol of threat, where you are threatening someone.

在其他文化中，例如在美拉尼西亚文化中，这组面部动作是威胁的象征，即你正在威胁某人。

You are threatening them with aggression, basically.

基本上，你是在用攻击性来威胁他们。

It is a war face.

这是一张战争面孔。

But in Western cultures, that's the face that Western scientists believed was part of that distinctive pattern for fear.

但在西方文化中，西方科学家认为这张脸是恐惧的独特模式的一部分。

And so the way that scientists defined emotion for a long time was these kind of states where you'd see this diagnostic ensemble of signals, and that would mean that any time someone showed one of those signals, they may move their face in a particular way, or their heart increased at a particular time, you'd be able to diagnose them as being in a state of fear as opposed to a state of anger or sadness or whatever.

因此，长期以来，科学家定义情绪的方式就是在这种状态下，你会看到这些诊断性的信号集合，这意味着每当有人表现出这些信号之一时，他们可能会以特定的方式移动他们的脸，或者他们的心跳在特定的时间增加，你就能够诊断他们处于恐惧状态，而不是愤怒或悲伤或其他什么状态。

The empirical evidence just doesn't bear that out.

经验证据并不能证明这一点。

And so it was kind of a mystery.

所以这有点神秘。

The mystery is, how is it that you feel angry or sad or happy or full of gratitude or awe, how is it that you experience these moments, but scientists can't find a single set of physical markers that correspond with each state distinctively.

令人困惑的是，你是如何感到愤怒、悲伤、快乐或充满感激或敬畏的，你是如何经历这些时刻的，但科学家无法找到一组与每种状态独特对应的物理标记。

Right?

正确的？

In a way that you could tell them apart.

以某种方式你可以区分它们。

That was a really big puzzle for a really long time.

很长一段时间以来，这都是一个很大的谜题。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I have to ask you about this perhaps myth, perhaps truth about facial expressions and emotions.

我必须问你关于面部表情和情绪的这个也许是神话，也许是事实。

Because as you were explaining the core components of emotions, I had to think back to the classic textbook images of the different faces associated with fear, with delight, with confusion, and on and on.

因为当你解释情绪的核心组成部分时，我不得不回想起经典教科书上与恐惧、喜悦、困惑等相关的不同面孔的图像。

We will get to that and your opinions on that, scientifically informed opinions, of course.

我们将了解这一点以及您对此的看法，当然，有科学依据的意见。

But there is a bit of a myth that the emotion system and the facial expression system run in both directions.

但有一点神话认为情绪系统和面部表情系统是双向运行的。

For instance, people will say, "If you smile, it's harder to feel sad or anxious." I can't say that's been my experience, but I very well could be wrong.

例如，人们会说，“如果你微笑，就很难感到悲伤或焦虑。”我不能说这是我的经历，但我很可能是错的。

So we know that when people's emotional states change, their facial expressions often will change, right?

那么我们知道，当人的情绪状态发生变化时，面部表情往往也会发生变化，对吗？

If you see someone crying on the street, versus somebody smiling really big, we can make some assumptions about what might be going on internally for them.

如果你看到有人在街上哭泣，而有人却笑得很开心，我们可以对他们内心可能发生的事情做出一些假设。

But put simply, is it true that changing one's facial expression can direct shifts in the brain and body, perhaps, that change our emotional states?

但简单地说，改变一个人的面部表情真的可以直接改变大脑和身体的变化，从而改变我们的情绪状态吗？

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

If you'll permit me, what I would say is that your question is ill-posed.

如果您允许的话，我想说的是您的问题是不恰当的。

So first of all, it presumes that there's an emotion system and that there's a facial expression system.

所以首先，它假设有一个情感系统和一个面部表情系统。

Now, clearly, there's a system for moving facial muscles.

现在，很明显，有一个可以移动面部肌肉的系统。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Okay?

好吧？

But a movement is not the same as an expression.

但动作与表达不同。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

A movement is a movement.

运动就是运动。

An expression is an interpretation of the meaning of a movement.

表达式是对运动含义的解释。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Not all movements of the face are expressions.

并非所有面部动作都是表情。

And this is a problem.

这是一个问题。

It's a problem in science.

这是一个科学问题。

It's often the case, I think, in my experience, in the science of emotion, but elsewhere too, that scientists, in their efforts to make their work meaningful to people, will try to interpret their findings in ways that the average person would find interesting, or the way that a physician would find interesting, or a teacher, or what have you, to be able to use this information.

我认为，根据我的经验，在情感科学中，但在其他地方也是如此，科学家们在努力使他们的工作对人们有意义时，会尝试以普通人觉得有趣的方式，或者医生觉得有趣的方式，或者老师，或者你拥有的东西，来解释他们的发现，以便能够使用这些信息。

But then they forget that they're actually making an interpretation, and they start to refer to their observations with the labels of interpretation.

但随后他们忘记了他们实际上是在做出解释，并且开始用解释的标签来引用他们的观察结果。

So facial movements are facial movements.

所以面部动作就是面部动作。

People move their faces, and those movements have meaning, but they're not always to express an internal state.

人们移动他们的面部，这些动作是有意义的，但它们并不总是表达一种内部状态。

In fact, one might think that they're very rarely to express an internal state.

事实上，人们可能会认为他们很少表达一种内心状态。

So I don't know that there's a facial expression system either.

所以我也不知道有面部表情系统。

There's certainly, like I said, there's circuitry for moving a face, but what those movements mean is highly variable.

正如我所说，确实存在用于移动面部的电路，但这些运动的含义是高度可变的。

And so that would be my second point, where I would say, when you see someone crying on the street, you are not looking only at their face.

这就是我的第二点，我想说，当你看到有人在街上哭泣时，你不仅仅看到他们的脸。

You might be aware that you're focusing on their face.

您可能会意识到您正在关注他们的脸部。

That might be the part of the entire sensory ensemble that you are focusing your attention on.

这可能是您所关注的整个感官整体的一部分。

But your brain is taking in an entire ensemble of signals, as you know.

但如您所知，您的大脑正在接收整个信号集合。

It's taking in not just the ...

它吸收的不仅仅是...

movements of the face, the tears, or whatever.

脸部的动作，眼泪，或者其他什么。

It's taking in all of the entire sensory array, the sounds, the smells, what's going on inside your own body.

它吸收所有的整个感官阵列，声音，气味，以及你体内发生的事情。

Your brain is being bombarded with signals from all of those sources.

你的大脑正受到来自所有这些来源的信号的轰炸。

And when it's making meaning out of any signal, it's doing it in an ensemble of signals.

当它从任何信号中获取意义时，它是在信号集合中进行的。

So research shows that babies' cries aren't acoustically specific to when they're tired or hungry.

因此研究表明，婴儿的哭声在听觉上并不特定于他们疲倦或饥饿时的情况。

I can show you a video without context and show you someone crying, and you might make the stereotypic judgment in the West, "Oh, that person is sad." And then we pan out, and really, it's a little girl whose dad just came home from Iraq or something.

我可以给你看一段没有背景的视频，给你看一个人在哭，你可能会做出西方的刻板判断，“哦，那个人很伤心。”然后我们就发现了，真的，这是一个小女孩，她的爸爸刚从伊拉克什么的回来。

So brains are always interpreting faces in context.

所以大脑总是根据上下文来解读面孔。

They're making guesses.

他们正在猜测。

This is something that I've talked about quite a bit, that we don't read movements in people.

这是我已经谈过很多次的事情，我们不会解读人们的动作。

We don't read emotions in facial expressions.

我们不会从面部表情中读出情绪。

We make inferences about the emotional meaning of facial movements, and we do it in an ensemble of other signals, the context, if you will.

我们对面部动作的情感意义进行推断，并且如果你愿意的话，我们会在其他信号、上下文的集合中进行推断。

And that's really what's happening.

这确实是正在发生的事情。

So, do I think that there's feedback from the face to the brain?

那么，我认为有从面部到大脑的反馈吗？

Sure.

当然。

There's feedback from every muscle, but there's this constant conversation between the brain and the body.

每块肌肉都有反馈，但大脑和身体之间不断进行对话。

The brain is sending motor commands.

大脑正在发送运动命令。

The body has sensory surfaces, which are sending signals back to the brain.

身体有感觉表面，将信号发送回大脑。

So if the face is influencing the brain, it's doing so in a way that's not special.

因此，如果面部正在影响大脑，那么它的影响方式并不特殊。

It's doing it in a way that works for all other parts of your body, too.

它的作用方式也适用于你身体的所有其他部位。

And I guess what I would say, this is kind of a long-winded answer, but over time, your brain has learned that certain patterns of signal over time recur.

我想我会说，这是一个冗长的答案，但随着时间的推移，你的大脑已经了解到，随着时间的推移，某些信号模式会重复出现。

And so if you're smiling, if your brain is telling your facial muscles to move in a particular way that looks like smiling, it's happening in a larger ensemble of signals, and then the brain is predicting what's going to happen next because it's learned over time what happens next.

因此，如果你在微笑，如果你的大脑告诉你的面部肌肉以一种看起来像微笑的特定方式移动，那么它会在更大的信号集合中发生，然后大脑会预测接下来会发生什么，因为随着时间的推移，它会了解接下来会发生什么。

So probabilistically so, if you think about that as cause, then sure.

所以概率上是这样，如果你认为这是原因，那么当然。

But it's not this simplistic kind of idea that an emotion is triggered, it causes facial muscles to move in a particular way, and therefore, if you just pose your face in that particular arrangement, that will somehow feed back to the emotion system and change that system.

但触发情绪并不是这种简单化的想法，它会导致面部肌肉以特定的方式移动，因此，如果你只是以这种特定的方式摆出你的脸，就会以某种方式反馈到情绪系统并改变该系统。

Because there is no emotion system in your brain, and the causation just isn't that simplistically mechanistic.

因为你的大脑中没有情感系统，而且因果关系并不是那么简单的机械论。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

That makes sense to me.

这对我来说很有意义。

I frankly never bought the idea that just smiling would make me feel happy, especially if my internal state was not one of happiness, like fighting the internal state.

坦白说，我从来不相信只要微笑就能让我感到快乐，尤其是当我的内在状态不是一种快乐时，比如与内在状态作斗争。

Also, in the early 2000s, I think it was, there was a lot of discussion about how positioning the body in certain ways, taking up more space, would allow people to feel more powerful, and some of these studies argued that there were even hormonal shifts associated with taking up more space that were associated with feelings of empowerment, and then when shrinking of oneself was associated with elevated cortisol states.

另外，我认为在 2000 年代初期，有很多关于如何以某种方式定位身体、占据更多空间，让人们感觉更强大的讨论，其中一些研究认为，甚至存在与占据更多空间相关的荷尔蒙变化，这些变化与赋权感相关，然后当自我收缩与皮质醇状态升高相关时。

And as I say all of this, I want to be clear that I do not take a simplistic view of the nervous system-

正如我所说的所有这些，我想澄清的是，我对神经系统的看法并不是简单化的——

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Oh, of course

哦，当然

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

or endocrine system.

或内分泌系统。

And I don't think that you were implying that either.

我也不认为你在暗示这一点。

Just want to make sure that anyone listening or watching isn't thinking that, for instance, that cortisol is bad.

只是想确保任何听或看的人都不会认为皮质醇不好。

Cortisol is wonderful and essential.

皮质醇是美妙而必需的。

You just need it regulated properly.

你只需要对其进行适当的监管。

Or that the idea that the body and emotional states are inextricably linked makes a ton of sense to me.

或者，身体和情绪状态密不可分的想法对我来说很有意义。

But the idea that you could just grab onto one of the nodes in the emo-- And now I have to be careful not to say emotion system.

但是你可以抓住情绪中的一个节点的想法——现在我必须小心不要说情绪系统。

Like position of the body, like being hunched over makes you depressed.

就像身体的姿势一样，弯腰驼背会让你感到沮丧。

No, that never made sense to me.

不，这对我来说毫无意义。

Taking up more space makes you feel more powerful.

占据更多的空间会让你感觉更强大。

It can't be that way.

不可能是这样的。

And yet we were told for about a decade, especially through popular press, that this stuff was true.

然而，大约十年来，尤其是通过大众媒体，我们被告知这些东西是真的。

And so what I love about your work is that it includes a neuroanatomical, a psychological, a network perspective, that there isn't one seat of emotions, and so on.

所以我喜欢你的工作是因为它包括神经解剖学、心理学、网络视角，并且不存在单一的情感等等。

So if we could go a little bit further into the facial expression piece for a moment.

那么我们是否可以进一步探讨一下面部表情部分。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Sure.

当然。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I was taught in my psychology and neuroscience textbooks, because it was right there in front of me, that there were some core categories of facial expression that were universal across cultures that conveyed something about the internal state of the person.

我的心理学和神经科学教科书教导我，因为就在我面前，有一些跨文化通用的面部表情核心类别，可以传达有关人的内部状态的信息。

That the downward lips in the corner and maybe even a furrowing of the brow was associated with negative valent states, like sadness, perhaps even depression.

嘴角向下的嘴唇，甚至可能是皱起的眉头，都与负价状态有关，比如悲伤，甚至可能是抑郁。

That the opposite of upward-turned corners of the mouth and widening of the eyes was delight and excitement.

嘴角上扬、眼睛睁大的反面是喜悦和兴奋。

Some of that feels pretty true to my experience, but how do you and other serious scientists of emotions view that somewhat classic literature now?

其中一些感觉非常符合我的经历，但你和其他严肃的情感科学家现在如何看待这些有点经典的文学作品呢？

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Yeah.

是的。

So I'll just say that my My journey here, my scientific journey, was not one of attempting to overturn a century's worth of, are we allowed to swear?

所以我只想说，我在这里的旅程，我的科学之旅，不是试图推翻一个世纪的价值，我们可以发誓吗？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Sure.

当然。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Bullshit, basically.

基本上都是废话。

It's basically Western stereotypes enshrined as scientific fact.

这基本上是被奉为科学事实的西方刻板印象。

And that sounds like a pretty harsh thing to say, but I think I pretty much stand by that at this point.

这听起来像是一个相当严厉的说法，但我想我目前仍然坚持这一点。

But for me, when I was a graduate student, when I was an undergraduate in psychology and in physiology and in anthropology, I also had read that Darwin said that there were these distinctive facial expressions that were coordinated with specific emotional states, the specific states of the nervous system.

但对我来说，当我还是一名研究生时，当我是一名心理学、生理学和人类学本科生时，我也读过达尔文说，有这些独特的面部表情与特定的情绪状态、神经系统的特定状态相协调。

This was Darwin's view, and I assumed it was correct until I started to try to use that information in the lab, and everything fell apart.

这是达尔文的观点，我认为它是正确的，直到我开始尝试在实验室中使用这些信息，然后一切都崩溃了。

So when you show someone in a laboratory, like a student or somebody from the community, a face, a disembodied face, where the person's eyes are widened in the face and they're gasping, like a stereotypic fear expression, most of the time they don't know what it is.

因此，当你在实验室里向某人展示一张脸，一张没有实体的脸，比如学生或社区的人时，他们的眼睛睁大，喘着气，就像一种刻板的恐惧表情，大多数时候他们不知道那是什么。

And so I would try to use these faces as stimuli in experiments, and they weren't working the way that they were supposed to work.

所以我会尝试在实验中使用这些面孔作为刺激，但它们并没有按照预期的方式工作。

And we're really going all the way back to the beginning of psychology.

我们真的要回到心理学的起源。

There were always debates about whether or not this was actually accurate.

关于这是否准确一直存在争议。

And there's a really interesting story about how Darwin came to this idea, which I can tell you about, but it's not because he cared about emotion.

关于达尔文如何产生这个想法，有一个非常有趣的故事，我可以告诉你，但这并不是因为他关心情感。

And he was basically taking his own very Western views about emotion to make some claims about evolution, actually.

实际上，他基本上是用自己非常西方的情感观点来提出一些关于进化论的主张。

So, I have more to say about that and about why it's a problem to take anything that anybody said, even Darwin from 150 or so years ago, or whatever it is, and treat it like it's a modern text.

因此，关于这一点，我还有更多话要说，以及为什么接受任何人所说的任何东西（甚至是 150 年前的达尔文或其他任何东西）并把它当作现代文本来对待是一个问题。

He was writing at a particular time for a particular purpose, and that doesn't necessarily mean that whatever he wrote is true.

他在特定时间出于特定目的而写作，这并不一定意味着他所写的都是真实的。

But I'll just tell you what the evidence says.

但我只会告诉你证据的内容。

That there has been, in psychology, a debate, really vicious debate actually, for probably 50 years about the nature of facial expressions and whether they're universal and whether there's this one-to-one correspondence between a particular face and a facial configuration and a particular emotional state.

在心理学领域，关于面部表情的本质、面部表情是否具有普遍性、特定的面部表情与面部结构以及特定的情绪状态之间是否存在一一对应关系，大约有 50 年的时间一直存在着一场争论，实际上是非常激烈的争论。

Smiling and happiness, scowling and anger, wrinkling your nose and disgust.

微笑和幸福，皱眉和愤怒，皱起鼻子和厌恶。

And so in 2016, I think, the Association for Psychological Science tasked me and some other senior scientists with attempting to write a white paper, a consensus paper, on what the literature actually shows.

因此，我认为，心理科学协会在 2016 年责成我和其他一些资深科学家尝试就文献实际显示的内容撰写一份白皮书，一份共识文件。

So what does the research actually show?

那么这项研究实际上表明了什么？

If you read all the research, can you find a pattern there?

如果您阅读了所有研究，您能找到其中的模式吗？

Does it actually reveal anything about whether or not facial expressions are universal, particularly for emotion?

它是否真的揭示了面部表情是否具有普遍性，尤其是情感方面？

And the way they do this, they have a journal for this purpose, for taking a widely held belief that is highly debated and bringing together a panel of experts who disagree with each other at the outset, and they have to work together to see if they can come to consensus over the data.

他们这样做的方式是，他们为此目的编写了一本期刊，以采纳一个广泛持有的、备受争议的信念，并召集一群一开始就互相不同意的专家小组，他们必须共同努力，看看是否能够就数据达成共识。

And this is something that people have tried in the past, and people have been vicious with each other over this question.

这是人们过去尝试过的事情，人们在这个问题上互相恶毒。

So when we brought together a group of people, so several people refused to serve, senior scientists refused to serve on this panel, but-

所以当我们聚集了一群人时，有几个人拒绝服务，资深科学家拒绝在这个小组中服务，但是-

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Out of fear of losing their funding or something?

是因为担心失去资金还是其他原因？

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

That's a whole other conversation-

那是另外一段对话了——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah, sure

是的，当然

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

...

...

about why certain scientists would not want to engage with people who disagree with them.

为什么某些科学家不愿意与不同意他们观点的人打交道。

That's an interesting conversation to have, but I don't think it's as simple actually as just they're careerist or they care about their money or funding or whatever.

这是一次有趣的对话，但我认为这实际上并不像他们是野心家或者他们关心自己的金钱或资金或其他什么那么简单。

That would be an easy answer, but I don't actually think that's what's going on, but that's another sort of...

这将是一个简单的答案，但我实际上并不认为这是正在发生的事情，但这是另一种......

But anyway, so, there were five of us who got together, all senior scientists, all from different fields.

但无论如何，我们有五个人聚在一起，都是来自不同领域的资深科学家。

Some of us hadn't met each other before.

我们中的一些人之前从未见过面。

We all knew of each other, of course.

当然，我们都互相认识。

And we met over Zoom for two and a half years.

我们通过 Zoom 认识了两年半。

This is pre-COVID because people were all over the world, right?

这是新冠疫情之前的情况，因为人们遍布世界各地，对吗？

And we read over 1,000 papers.

我们阅读了 1,000 多篇论文。

So I was the only one in this group of the five of us who my starting hypothesis was that facial movements are meaningful, but there's no one-to-one correspondence between a particular facial configuration, like a scowl and anger.

因此，我们五个人中只有我一个人，我的初始假设是面部动作是有意义的，但特定的面部构造（例如皱眉和愤怒）之间没有一一对应的关系。

Not just that it would vary across cultures, but that it varies for you across situations.

不仅它会因文化而异，而且它也会因情况而异。

Do you scowl every time you're angry?

你每次生气的时候都会皱眉吗？

I don't scowl every time I'm angry.

我不会每次生气时都皱起眉头。

In fact, and I also scowl at times when I'm not angry.

事实上，当我不生气的时候，我有时也会皱起眉头。

So And there are scientific reasons to think that the collection of facial expressions that people make when they're angry or when they're sad or whatever would be highly variable.

因此，有科学理由认为，人们在生气或悲伤或其他任何情况下所做出的面部表情的集合会存在很大差异。

So that was my starting position.

这就是我的起始立场。

And then there were four guys, so I just refer to them as guys because it was me and four guys.

然后有四个人，所以我只是将他们称为“家伙”，因为这是我和四个人。

And the guys, they all, to some extent, thought that facial expressions were universal, but they had differing reasons for hypothesizing that.

这些家伙，他们都在某种程度上认为面部表情是普遍的，但他们有不同的理由做出这样的假设。

And they also had different degrees of commitment to that position.

他们也对这个职位有不同程度的承诺。

But we right off the bat sort of agreed that it didn't matter who was right.

但我们立刻就同意谁是对的并不重要。

That was just not relevant.

那是不相关的。

The only thing that mattered was that we could come to the consensus over the data.

唯一重要的是我们可以就数据达成共识。

And if we couldn't, we had to really pinpoint why.

如果我们不能，我们必须真正查明原因。

So what would be the critical experiments that would have to be done in order for us to come to consensus over the data?

那么，为了让我们就数据达成共识，必须进行哪些关键实验呢？

And we also agreed that we had all kinds of contingencies set up.

我们还同意我们已经设置了各种突发事件。

So you've got five senior people who are all running big labs and they're investing upwards of three years working on a paper.

所以你有五位资深人士，他们都在经营大型实验室，他们在一篇论文上投入了三年以上的时间。

So if we can't come to consensus, what are we going to do?

那么，如果我们不能达成共识，我们该怎么办？

Are we going to write one paper and sort of write about the process, or are we going to write separate papers?

我们是要写一篇论文并写下这个过程，还是要写单独的论文？

But we had all these contingencies laid out, but the key here, I think, is that we agreed that we were not going to be adversarial about it, because it didn't matter who was right.

但我们已经安排好了所有这些意外情况，但我认为，这里的关键是我们同意我们不会对此持敌对态度，因为谁对谁错并不重要。

And in fact, if somebody had to admit they were wrong, and someone was going to have to admit they were wrong, it turns out all of us were wrong about something, but we were going to be supportive of each other and really encourage each other.

事实上，如果有人不得不承认自己错了，而有人也不得不承认自己错了，那么事实证明我们所有人都在某些事情上错了，但我们会互相支持并真正互相鼓励。

Because being wrong is-- No one likes to be wrong, but for scientists to admit they're wrong is hard, and it's something that we should encourage each other to do, I think, more and more publicly.

因为犯错是——没有人喜欢犯错，但科学家承认自己错了是很难的，我认为，我们应该越来越公开地鼓励彼此这样做。

And I think the people who do that are really brave.

我认为这样做的人非常勇敢。

And so that was my position, and they all agreed.

这就是我的立场，他们都同意。

And the long story short here is that two and a half years, 1,000 papers later, we all very reasonably came to consensus that there was no evidence for facial expressions of emotion being universal.

长话短说是，两年半后，发表了 1000 篇论文后，我们都非常合理地达成了共识，即没有证据表明情绪的面部表情具有普遍性。

And that instead, what there's clear evidence of is that facial expressions, the way that people move their faces in moments of expression, is highly variable.

相反，有明确的证据表明，面部表情，即人们在表达表情时移动脸部的方式，是高度可变的。

Meaning sometimes in anger, you scowl.

意思是有时在愤怒时，你会皱起眉头。

Meta-analyses, so statistical summaries of many studies, even in the West, show that people scowl about 35% of the time when they're angry, which is more than chance.

荟萃分析，即许多研究（甚至在西方）的统计总结表明，人们在生气时大约有 35% 的时间会皱眉，这绝非偶然。

So it gets you a good publication in the proceedings of the National Academy.

因此，它可以让您在国家科学院会议记录中获得良好的出版物。

But that means 65% of the time, people are moving their faces in other meaningful ways that's not scowling.

但这意味着 65% 的时间里，人们会以其他有意义的方式移动脸部，而不是皱眉。

So if you actually used a scowl, or even a scowl and blood pressure, or just maybe not one signal, but a couple signals.

因此，如果您实际上使用了皱眉，甚至是皱眉和血压，或者可能不是一个信号，而是几个信号。

But you would be wrong more than half the time.

但有一半以上的情况你都会错。

You would miss more than half the cases.

你会错过一半以上的案例。

And even more importantly, I think, that's the reliability question.

我认为更重要的是可靠性问题。

So there's low reliability for the correspondence between a scowl and anger.

因此，皱眉和愤怒之间的对应关系可靠性很低。

It's above chance.

这是高于机会的。

So scowling is one expression of anger, but it's certainly not the dominant one, and there is no dominant one.

因此，皱眉是愤怒的一种表达方式，但它肯定不是主要的表达方式，而且也不存在占主导地位的表达方式。

It's just highly variable depending on the situation that you're in.

根据您所处的情况，它的变化很大。

So sometimes when I'm angry, I sit quietly and plot the demise of my enemy.

所以有时当我生气的时候，我会静静地坐着，策划消灭我的敌人。

Sometimes I smile in anger.

有时我会愤怒地微笑。

Sometimes I cry in anger.

有时我会愤怒地哭泣。

It really depends on the situation.

这确实取决于具体情况。

But more importantly, half of the scowls that people make are not related to anger.

但更重要的是，人们的皱眉有一半与愤怒无关。

That means that the specificity is, again, higher than chance, but not that much higher than chance.

这意味着特异性再次高于偶然性，但并不比偶然性高很多。

So if you see someone scowling, the chances are that they might not be angry.

因此，如果你看到有人皱着眉头，他们很可能并没有生气。

They might be concentrating really hard, or they might have gas.

他们可能非常集中注意力，或者他们可能有气。

There are a lot of reasons why people make a scowl.

人们皱起眉头的原因有很多。

And we found this for every emotion category that had ever been studied, and I want you to notice what I just did there.

我们在曾经研究过的每一种情绪类别中都发现了这一点，我希望你们注意到我刚刚在那里做了什么。

I'm no longer referring to an emotion as if it's an entity or a thing.

我不再将情感视为一个实体或事物。

So anger isn't one thing.

所以愤怒不是一回事。

It's a category of things, a grouping of things.

它是事物的一个类别，事物的一组。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And if I'm not mistaken, it includes verbs, right?

如果我没记错的话，它包括动词，对吗？

Anger as a set of verb actions in the brain and body.

愤怒是大脑和身体中的一组动词动作。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It's a process.

这是一个过程。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

It's a process.

这是一个过程。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It's not an event.

这不是一个事件。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Exactly.

正是如此。

It's not a noun, it's a verb, and it's a process.

它不是一个名词，它是一个动词，它是一个过程。

But the point is that it's a highly variable grouping of instances.

但关键是它是一个高度可变的实例分组。

If you are talking about all instances of anger, all instances of anger that you have ever experienced or witnessed is a highly variable grouping of instances that vary.

如果您谈论的是所有愤怒实例，那么您曾经经历或目睹的所有愤怒实例都是变化很大的实例分组。

That doesn't mean they're random, but what the body does in anger depends on what the physical movements will be in anger, and that depends on the situation that you're in and what your goal is.

这并不意味着它们是随机的，但身体在愤怒时的行为取决于愤怒时的身体运动，而这取决于你所处的情况和你的目标是什么。

And there are ways to talk about that in neuroscience terms, which are a little more precise, but the important thing to understand here, I think, is that we're only talking about Western cultures now.

有很多方法可以用神经科学术语来谈论这个问题，这些方法更精确一些，但我认为，这里要理解的重要一点是，我们现在只谈论西方文化。

The minute that you go outside of the West to Or even to the east.

当你走出西方甚至东方的那一刻。

There are other cultures that have been studied, like China, and cultures in China, in Japan, in Korea.

还有其他文化也被研究过，比如中国，以及中国、日本、韩国的文化。

They all have access to knowledge about Western cultural practices and norms.

他们都有机会了解西方文化习俗和规范。

So what happens when you go to remote cultures which have much less access?

那么，当你去访问机会少得多的偏远文化时会发生什么呢？

It's not like they have no access, because we live in a globalized world, so even hunter-gatherers in Tanzania, the Hadza, have access to Western practices and norms, but much less.

他们并不是没有机会接触西方的习俗和规范，因为我们生活在一个全球化的世界，所以即使是坦桑尼亚的狩猎采集者哈扎人也能接触到西方的习俗和规范，但要少得多。

And we did do that.

我们确实这么做了。

And all bets are off there.

所有的赌注都在那里。

Most of the time, they don't even understand or experience facial movements as having anything to do with emotion.

大多数时候，他们甚至不理解或体验不到面部动作与情绪有任何关系。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So if they saw an emoji of a smiley face, would they just assume it was a couple-- They might think it's a face.

因此，如果他们看到笑脸的表情符号，他们会认为这是一对吗？他们可能会认为这是一张脸。

Because as we both know, there's some fairly hardwired brain circuitry for the two eyes, and a line beneath it, and something in the middle that's pseudo nose.

因为我们都知道，两只眼睛有一些相当硬连线的大脑电路，在它下面有一条线，中间有一个假鼻子。

That organization of just spatial features-

只是空间特征的组织-

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

cues up face for both-

提示双方的脸-

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Well, but-

好吧，但是——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

For most primates, including us

对于大多数灵长类动物，包括我们

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

...

...

although it's really interesting that you say that because yes, of course, that's true, but it's not there at birth.

虽然你这么说真的很有趣，因为是的，当然，这是真的，但它在出生时并不存在。

What's there at birth is a preference for that configuration.

出生时就有对这种配置的偏好。

Right?

正确的？

And we could talk about why that's there.

我们可以讨论为什么会出现这种情况。

This is actually very controversial.

这其实是很有争议的。

But what newborns orient to, they orient to that configuration, but it doesn't have to be a face.

但新生儿所定向的，他们会定向于那种形状，但不一定是一张脸。

And then very quickly, they start learning faces because they're exposed to faces.

然后很快，他们就开始学习面孔，因为他们接触到面孔。

Really, the first three months of life is almost like a massive, continuous tutorial on what faces are, because they're being fed and-

真的，生命的前三个月几乎就像一个关于什么是面孔的大规模、连续的教程，因为它们正在被喂养并且——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And everyone's in your face.

每个人都在你的面前。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Literally.

从字面上看。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I saw a baby last night, and you see the baby of some friends of mine have an unbelievably cute baby with big cheeks, and there's this desire to see the baby smile, right?

我昨晚看到了一个婴儿，你看我一些朋友的婴儿有一个令人难以置信的可爱婴儿，脸颊很大，并且有这种渴望看到婴儿微笑，对吧？

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Correct.

正确。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So you do the things that-

所以你做的事情是——

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

and if the baby shows some sort of facial expression that makes it seem like it's a little bit resistant to what you're doing, you stop doing it.

如果宝宝表现出某种面部表情，让人觉得他对你正在做的事情有点抗拒，你就停止这样做。

You change up your strategy.

你改变你的策略。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And then when baby cracks a smile, now I'm going to assume that the baby may or may not have been happy inside that little baby head.

然后当宝宝微笑时，现在我要假设宝宝在那个小脑袋里可能快乐也可能不快乐。

But when they do, there's a reciprocity.

但当他们这样做时，就会产生互惠。

Then we smile.

然后我们微笑。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Exactly.

正是如此。

Exactly.

确切地。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And so there's a template that's very robust.

所以有一个非常强大的模板。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Right.

对。

But I want you to notice, though, that-- So first of all, I'm not saying that recognizing a face as a face is not hardwired.

但我想让你注意到——所以首先，我并不是说将一张脸识别为一张脸不是硬连线的。

It is, but it's hardwired not by genes alone.

确实如此，但它不仅仅是由基因决定的。

Right?

正确的？

And in fact, there's a really wonderful book called "Not by Genes Alone".

事实上，有一本非常精彩的书，名叫《Not by Genes Alone》。

Basically, there's cultural inheritance.

基本上，有文化传承。

We have the kind of nature that requires nurture.

我们有一种需要培养的天性。

We have the kind of genes that require early learning.

我们有那种需要早期学习的基因。

We need wiring instructions from the world to get the rest of the information that we need to be competent, culturally competent in our lives.

我们需要来自世界的接线指令来获取我们在生活中胜任、文化胜任所需的其余信息。

And that starts at birth.

这从出生就开始了。

It probably starts before birth even.

它甚至可能在出生前就开始了。

But in the third trimester, there's some evidence of fetal learning even in the third trimester.

但在妊娠晚期，有一些证据表明胎儿即使在妊娠晚期也能学习。

So, the point is not that people aren't hardwired for viewing faces or recognizing faces.

因此，问题不在于人们天生不擅长查看面孔或识别面孔。

It's just where does that hardwiring come from?

硬接线从哪里来？

It's not by genes alone.

这不仅仅取决于基因。

Genes aren't the blueprint.

基因不是蓝图。

The brain is expecting certain inputs from the world, and it needs that because infant brains are wiring themselves to their world, and part of that world is people making faces at them and smiling.

大脑正在期待来自世界的某些输入，它需要这样做，因为婴儿的大脑正在将自己连接到他们的世界，而这个世界的一部分就是人们对他们做鬼脸和微笑。

And those people happen to also be the ones who are maintaining that baby's nervous system.

而这些人恰好也是维持婴儿神经系统的人。

There is reward learning, right, or reinforcement learning right off the bat because these are the people who keep you comfortable.

奖励学习，对吧，或者强化学习，因为这些人让你感到舒服。

They are the ones who feed you.

他们是喂养你的人。

They're the ones who help you get to sleep, and so on and so forth.

他们是帮助你入睡等等的人。

And so you're going to be very, very sensitive to changes in the contingencies of their behavior.

所以你会对他们行为的意外变化非常非常敏感。

Your brain, as a pattern learner, is just going to learn those patterns.

作为模式学习者，你的大脑只会学习这些模式。

If we know that smiling is a cue for happiness, it's because we've learned it.

如果我们知道微笑是幸福的暗示，那是因为我们已经学会了这一点。

And that doesn't mean that that learning isn't hardwired.

这并不意味着学习不是与生俱来的。

It just means that that information got into your brain by cultural inheritance, which is a part of evolutionary theory in the extended evolutionary synthesis, not in the original formulation that some people still stick to.

它只是意味着信息通过文化继承进入你的大脑，这是扩展进化综合中进化论的一部分，而不是某些人仍然坚持的原始表述。

Speaker 3:

演讲者3：

There is so much NFL on ESPN right now.

ESPN 上现在有很多 NFL 节目。

"Monday Night Football", plus pre-game and post-game, "NFL Live", "NFL Prime Time", everything you need to stay on top of every game, every week.

“周一橄榄球之夜”，以及赛前和赛后、“NFL Live”、“NFL Prime Time”，为您提供每周关注每场比赛所需的一切。

Unbelievable.

难以置信。

And now NFL Network is on the ESPN app.

现在 NFL Network 已登陆 ESPN 应用程序。

More football, more coverage, more ways to watch.

更多足球比赛、更多报道、更多观看方式。

Football's on all season long on ESPN and streaming on the ESPN app.

ESPN 提供整个赛季的足球赛事直播，并通过 ESPN 应用程序进行直播。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So it's far more nuanced than it was presented to me in those textbooks, and it sounds like it was outright wrong on many dimensions.

所以它比那些教科书中向我呈现的要微妙得多，而且听起来它在很多方面都是完全错误的。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Well, can I just mention one thing, though?

好吧，我可以提一件事吗？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Please.

请。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

This is really serious stuff.

这是非常严肃的事情。

Sometimes people think, "Well, what's the big deal?" This is such a big deal.

有时人们会想：“这有什么大不了的？”这是一件大事。

I'll tell you why it's a big deal.

我会告诉你为什么这很重要。

Because in our culture, people believe that they can read mental states of other people by their face.

因为在我们的文化中，人们相信他们可以通过别人的脸来解读他们的心理状态。

And they believe it so much that it's enshrined in the legal system.

他们对此深信不疑，并将其写入法律体系。

And there are people who lose their lives because juries believe that they can read remorse or the lack of it.

有些人失去生命是因为陪审团认为他们可以看出悔恨或缺乏悔恨。

And in fact, there was just a case last year, I believe, where the Innocence Project got involved because there was a woman who was on death row, and what put her on death row was a police officer's claim that he could read her emotions by the comportment of her face and her body.

事实上，我相信去年就发生过一个案件，无罪计划参与其中是因为有一名妇女被关在死囚牢房，而将她关进死牢的原因是一名警察声称他可以通过她的面部和身体的举止来解读她的情绪。

And it was possible to get a stay of execution so that she could be retried.

并且有可能获得暂缓执行，以便重审她。

So I'm not saying she was guilty or not guilty, I'm just saying what put her on death row was evidence that would not be admissible in a scientific way now.

所以我并不是说她有罪或无罪，我只是说把她关进死牢的是现在科学上不可接受的证据。

And there are lots of cases where judgments are made that end up impacting people's lives in pretty serious ways.

在很多情况下，做出的判断最终会以相当严重的方式影响人们的生活。

So this is a really serious thing, and it's puzzling to me why it's got such traction, this idea that there are these universal expressions that we can use to read each other.

所以这是一件非常严肃的事情，令我困惑的是为什么它有如此大的吸引力，这个想法是我们可以用这些通用表达来互相解读。

It's just not true.

这不是真的。

I feel like scientists, I don't like to use the T word, the F word, fact.

我觉得像科学家一样，我不喜欢使用T词、F词，事实。

It's a scary word.

这是一个可怕的词。

T word, truth.

T字，真理。

But I think in this case, I feel like I can really, at least with a little T, I can use it.

但我觉得在这种情况下，我感觉我真的可以，至少有一点T，我可以使用它。

You probably have particular facial movements that you make on a regular basis that are tells for you.

您可能会定期进行特定的面部动作，这些动作可以告诉您信息。

I know I do.

我知道我知道。

My husband can look at my actions, and he can make really decent guesses about what's going on for me upstairs, right?

我丈夫可以观察我的行为，他可以对我楼上发生的事情做出非常不错的猜测，对吗？

But that's because he's known me for 30 years.

但那是因为他认识我三十年了。

Actually, 30 years today, I should just say.

事实上，我应该说，今天已经30年了。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Oh, congratulations.

哦，恭喜。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

That we met each other 30 years ago today.

三十年前的今天，我们相遇了。

But brains are pattern learners.

但大脑是模式学习者。

So I'm not saying that everything is random and that it's all noise, I'm saying that there just aren't these universal templates.

所以我并不是说一切都是随机的并且都是噪音，我是说根本不存在这些通用模板。

It's not like that, and we really have to stop assuming that there are.

事实并非如此，我们真的必须停止假设存在这样的情况。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Well, I'm so glad that you're getting that message out there, and I'm very thankful that you highlighted the seriousness of these myths that have propagated.

嗯，我很高兴你能传达出这样的信息，我也非常感谢你强调了这些已经传播的神话的严重性。

And that's a perfect segue into what I was already going to ask, which is based on something that I think is in very much agreement with what you're saying.

这是对我已经要问的问题的完美延续，这是基于我认为与你所说的非常一致的事情。

A previous guest on this podcast, I think it was our first guest episode, Dr. Karl Deisseroth, colleague of mine at-

我的同事 Karl Deisseroth 博士是本播客的前任嘉宾，我认为这是我们的第一集嘉宾。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

Stanford, incredible bioengineer, really 0.01% in his category of science, as well as a practicing psychiatrist, said something which really stuck with me over the years, which I once heard him say, "We don't really know how other people feel at all.

斯坦福大学，一位令人难以置信的生物工程师，在他的科学类别中确实是 0.01%，同时也是一位执业精神病学家，他说了一些多年来一直困扰着我的话，我曾经听到他说：“我们根本不知道其他人的感受。

In fact, most of the time, we don't even know how we feel." And that prompted the question for me about how good or poor are we at gauging our own emotional states, and in particular, at labeling them, both to others and for ourselves.

事实上，大多数时候，我们甚至不知道自己的感受如何。”这向我提出了一个问题：我们在衡量自己的情绪状态方面，尤其是在为他人和我们自己贴上标签方面，做得有多好或多差。

And so here's the direct question.

这是直接的问题。

Is language sufficient to capture this incredibly complex thing that we're calling emotions?

语言足以捕捉我们称之为情感的极其复杂的事物吗？

So for instance, the other day I was in New York with my sister, then she left, I went out for a bit.

举例来说，有一天我和姐姐在纽约，然后她离开了，我出去了一会儿。

I was having a pretty good day, and then I returned to the place where I was staying, and I was hit with this feeling of intense loneliness.

那天我过得很开心，然后我回到住的地方，一种强烈的孤独感袭来。

And I don't know why.

我不知道为什么。

And then I had a bunch of ideas about how that related to growing up and da, da, da.

然后我有很多关于这与成长有何关系的想法，哒，哒，哒。

And I was going to see friends the next day, and I'm an adult, and so I could use some top-down regulation and say, "Oh, maybe I'm a little tired," because I hadn't slept as well the night before.

第二天我要去见朋友，我已经是成年人了，所以我可以使用一些自上而下的调节方法并说，“哦，也许我有点累了，”因为我前一天晚上没有睡好。

I've been pretty rested recently.

我最近休息得很好。

And then I actually wrote in my journal.

然后我实际上在日记中写道。

I said, "Maybe most of feeling good is being pretty well rested and not in any physical pain." That's a big part of feeling good, is the absence of fatigue and the absence of physical pain.

我说：“也许感觉良好的大部分原因是休息得很好，而且没有任何身体疼痛。”这是感觉良好的一个重要部分，就是没有疲劳和没有身体疼痛。

And then I thought, "Wow, that's just so basic.

然后我想，“哇，这太基本了。

That's two building blocks.

这是两个构建块。

It's clearly insufficient." But then I couldn't think of a word to adequately describe the emotion that came about an hour later when I was feeling a little bit better, but not completely better.

这显然是不够的。”但后来我想不出一个词来充分描述大约一个小时后的情绪，当时我感觉好一点，但还没有完全好。

So was I lonely?

那么我孤独吗？

Not really.

并不真地。

Not anymore.

不再。

Was I sad?

我伤心吗？

Not really.

并不真地。

But as I headed out into the city, I was thinking, "I don't really have a word for how I feel.

但当我走向这座城市时，我在想：“我真的无法用言语来形容我的感受。

I'm sort of okay, not great, not low." And so I think that we have emotional labels, I certainly do, for these peak emotional states.

我还好，不是很好，也不是低下。”因此，我认为我们对这些高峰情绪状态有情绪标签，我当然这样做。

Super happy.

超级开心。

I loved the time with my sister.

我很喜欢和姐姐在一起的时光。

We do this every year.

我们每年都会这样做。

This was a particularly good year for us to do this, and it went really well.

今年对我们来说是特别好的一年，而且进展非常顺利。

We were texting back and forth how great it was.

我们来回发短信说这真是太棒了。

I certainly know what it feels like to be really down in the pits.

我当然知道真正陷入困境的感觉。

I've got language for that.

我有语言。

But then there's this huge range in between.

但两者之间存在巨大的差异。

And so I guess the simple question is, should we even trust language as a way to understand how we're feeling, or are there additional, if not better signals that we should perhaps learn to elaborate our understanding of emotions with?

所以我想一个简单的问题是，我们是否应该相信语言是理解我们感受的一种方式，或者是否有额外的（如果不是更好的）信号让我们也许应该学习阐述我们对情绪的理解？

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

So I'm going to give you a simple answer, and then I'm going to give you a more complicated answer.

所以我会给你一个简单的答案，然后我会给你一个更复杂的答案。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Great.

太棒了。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

So the simple answer is no, language is not sufficient.

所以简单的答案是否定的，语言是不够的。

Period.

时期。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Great.

太棒了。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Well, I should say one language is not sufficient.

嗯，我应该说仅一种语言是不够的。

So English is not sufficient, and probably French on its own is not sufficient, and probably Swahili on its own is not sufficient.

因此，英语是不够的，法语本身可能是不够的，斯瓦希里语本身可能也是不够的。

Although it's very interesting that the states that we mark with words in each culture, some of them overlap, but a lot of them don't.

虽然很有趣的是，我们在每种文化中用文字标记的状态，其中一些是重叠的，但很多却不是。

And it's very, very useful to have labels of emotion concepts from other cultures that capture configurations or a state that we don't mark those and sort of distinctively pull them out as different from other states.

拥有来自其他文化的情感概念标签是非常非常有用的，这些标签捕获了我们没有标记的配置或状态，并且将它们明显地拉出来作为与其他状态的不同。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I'd love to know what some of those are.

我很想知道其中一些是什么。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Oh, there are I should have brought them with me.

哦，有，我应该把它们带在身上。

There's a German word, which I can't remember the name of the word, but it's like the experience of someone having a face that deserves a punch.

有一个德语单词，我不记得这个词的名字了，但这就像一个人有一张值得挨打的脸的经历。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I'm sure someone will tell us in the comments.

我相信有人会在评论中告诉我们。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Someone who knows German-

懂德语的人——

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Or-

或者-

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

or spends time there, please put that word in-

或者在那里度过一段时间，请把这个词写进-

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

the comments, but don't-

评论，但不要-

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Or-

或者-

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

punch anybody.

打任何人。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Another one that's my favorite is liget, which is a Polynesian headhunting emotion word, and it means exuberant aggression in a group.

另一个我最喜欢的词是“liget”，这是一个波利尼西亚猎头情感词，意思是群体中强烈的攻击性。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm.

嗯。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Like soccer or headhunting.

比如足球或者猎头。

Right where you're basically-- or I should say also in the military.

就在你基本上所在的地方——或者我应该说也在军队里。

So when I was listening to NPR one day a couple of years ago, must've been more than that because it's in my book, so it was probably more than seven years ago.

所以，几年前的一天，当我听 NPR 时，一定不止于此，因为它在我的书中，所以可能是七年多前的事了。

I was listening to these guys, these former military personnel, talk about being deployed in a war where they're with their buddies, and they're basically hunting the enemy, and they feel exuberant.

我听这些人，这些前军事人员谈论被部署在一场战争中，他们和他们的伙伴在一起，他们基本上是在追捕敌人，他们感到很兴奋。

It's not that they're happy, but it's pleasant, and it's very intense, very high arousal.

并不是说他们很快乐，而是很愉快，而且是非常强烈、非常高的兴奋。

And in the moment, it seemed right.

在那一刻，这似乎是正确的。

And then they come back, and they ask themselves...

然后他们回来，他们问自己......

They come back and so their deployment's ended, now they're back home, and they're like, "Am I a psychopath?

他们回来了，所以他们的部署结束了，现在他们回到家了，他们会想，“我是一个精神病患者吗？

I enjoy killing people.

我喜欢杀人。

What is this about?" And I was thinking, no, you just experienced liget.

这是什么事？”我在想，不，你只是经历了 Liget。

And if you had a word for it, you would understand that it's a groupie feeling where you're all in it together, and it's really intense.

如果你有一个词来形容它，你就会明白这是一种大家都在一起的集体感觉，而且非常强烈。

And they were experiencing the intensity of having their life on the line and being responsible for their brothers and sisters in their troop.

他们正在经历生命危险以及对部队中的兄弟姐妹负责的紧张感。

So what they would realize is it's perfectly within the range of normal human variation.

所以他们会意识到它完全在正常人类变异的范围内。

It's just that in English, we don't have a word for it, really.

只是在英语中，我们真的没有一个词来形容它。

But there are words that are concepts in other languages, right?

但有些单词在其他语言中是概念，对吧？

Or the other one that I like is called giggle, which is where when you see a baby who's really cute, and you just want to like, "Oh, you want to-

或者我喜欢的另一种叫咯咯，当你看到一个非常可爱的婴儿时，你只想喜欢，“哦，你想——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I had that experience yesterday evening

我昨天晚上就有过这样的经历

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

...

...

you want to just squeeze.

你只想挤压。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Oh, my God, that kid was so cute.

天哪，这孩子太可爱了。

Those little cheeks were just jumping at you, and-

那些小脸蛋正向你扑来，而且——

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Yeah, you just like, "Oh, I want to bite you."

是的，你只是喜欢，“哦，我想咬你。”

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And the parents are delightful people, too.

父母也是令人愉快的人。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And Dave was just phasing out because they had one of those-

戴夫刚刚逐渐退出，因为他们有其中之一——

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

outward-facing baby things.

面向外的婴儿用品。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And it's just sort of like, yeah.

有点像，是的。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It's-

这是——

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

And then I think that-

然后我想——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Giggle, it's called?

咯咯，这叫？

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

It's called giggle.

这叫咯咯笑。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Giggle.

咯咯笑。

Oh, giggle-

呵呵，咯咯笑——

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

And I-

而我——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

is from the other episode that we did on public health.

来自我们关于公共卫生的另一集。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Well, it also has to do with babies.

嗯，这也与婴儿有关。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah, no, that's...

是啊，不，那是……

Yeah.

是的。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

But yeah, in a different way.

但是，是的，以不同的方式。

Or there's one in Jap-- I think there's a Japanese word for the despair that you feel when you got a bad haircut.

或者日语中有一个词——我想有一个日语词来形容当你剪了一个糟糕的发型时所感受到的绝望。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Really?

真的吗？

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Yeah, because it really is a different kind of feeling than, because you've got to wait for it to grow out, whatever.

是的，因为这确实是一种不同的感觉，因为你必须等待它成长，无论如何。

Anyways, the point being that-

无论如何，重点是——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Amazing

太棒了

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

...

...

words for us mark particular states, and they're not always the states that other people in other cultures care about.

对我们来说，词语标志着特定的状态，而它们并不总是其他文化中的其他人关心的状态。

But even, again, the phrasing of your question, I just want to come back to, and I'm not trying to pick at you, but-

但即便如此，我还是想回到你问题的措辞，我并不是想挑剔你，但是——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

No, feel free.

不，随意。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

No, no, but-

不，不，但是——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

What I love is that what you said before when you said my question was ill-posed, in the answer that followed, it made it very clear why, and I learned something about how the not emotion system, but the things, plural, that create emotions work.

我喜欢的是，当你说我的问题不恰当时，你之前所说的，在随后的答案中，它非常清楚地说明了原因，我学到了一些关于不是情感系统，而是创造情感的复数事物如何运作的东西。

So feel free.

所以随意吧。

I grew up in the same culture that you did.

我和你们在同样的文化中长大。

I'm not Canadian by birth, but in the academic culture.

我出生时不是加拿大人，但学术文化上却是加拿大人。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

The stuff that we take online, by the way, folks, is nothing compared to the kind of hazing that I experienced growing up in academic culture as it was done then.

顺便说一句，朋友们，我们在网上看到的东西与我在学术文化中成长过程中所经历的那种欺凌相比根本算不了什么。

I don't know if it's still that way now.

我不知道现在是否还是这样。

So feel free.

所以随意吧。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Yeah, I think it's just-

是的，我认为这只是——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I'm tougher than I look.

我比看上去更坚强。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Well, no, but I think my point is that I'm trying to get at here is that when we ask questions, any of us, me too, anybody asks a question, there are certain assumptions that we're making in order to allow us to pose the question.

嗯，不，但我想我的观点是，我试图在这里表达的是，当我们提出问题时，我们中的任何人，我也是，任何人提出问题时，我们都会做出某些假设，以便我们提出问题。

And sometimes what I'm taking issue with is not the question itself, but it's the assumptions behind the question.

有时我质疑的不是问题本身，而是问题背后的假设。

Right?

正确的？

And this is a very classic thing in philosophy of science, which I know I just said the P word, philosophy, which scientists usually they roll their eyes back in their head and fall over when you talk about that.

这是科学哲学中非常经典的事情，我知道我刚刚说了P词，哲学，当你谈论它时，科学家们通常会翻白眼，然后翻倒。

But I think it's really important.

但我认为这真的很重要。

So is language sufficient to label or to gauge emotional states?

那么语言足以标记或衡量情绪状态吗？

Kind of sounds like, and this is the assumption that people make, that there's a state in here called an emotion, and now I have to label it, and I have to identify it.

听起来有点像，这是人们所做的假设，这里有一种状态称为情绪，现在我必须给它贴上标签，我必须识别它。

That is not how it works.

事实并非如此。

That is not what your brain is doing at all.

那根本不是你的大脑在做的事情。

And in order to explain what I think is happening and my best available guess, based on what I understand, it's not even remotely-- That is just not a meaningful question at all.

为了解释我认为正在发生的事情和我最好的猜测，根据我的理解，它甚至不是远程的——这根本不是一个有意义的问题。

I do think words are important.

我确实认为言语很重要。

I just don't think that they have to be insufficient by virtue of what the brain is actually doing.

我只是认为，根据大脑实际所做的事情，它们不一定是不够的。

And the way that I come at this is just really different from a lot of my colleagues.

我的处理方式与我的许多同事非常不同。

So really for 100 years, at least, I hate when people say things like that, like for 100 years.

所以真的100年了，至少，我讨厌人们说这样的话，就像100年一样。

But it really is.

但确实如此。

For 100 years, at least, what psychologists and neuroscientists do, or did and are still doing, is they start with a folk experience, a folk category, a common sense experience.

至少一百年来，心理学家和神经科学家所做的，或者过去和现在仍在做的，是从民间经验、民间范畴、常识经验开始。

I feel angry.

我感到愤怒。

I'm making a decision.

我正在做决定。

I'm having a memory.

我有记忆。

I'm remembering something.

我想起一件事。

They start with their experience, and then they go looking for the physical basis of that experience in the brain-

他们从自己的经历开始，然后在大脑中寻找这种经历的物理基础——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

...

...

or in the body.

或在体内。

I think that's really problematic because not everybody in the world actually uses those categories or has those experiences.

我认为这确实是有问题的，因为并不是世界上每个人都真正使用这些类别或拥有这些经验。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

A lot of that has to do with the scientific publication process.

其中很大一部分与科学出版过程有关。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

For sure.

当然。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

One of the most important statements I ever heard is from the late Ted Jones, one of the greatest neuroanatomists of probably the last 500 years which was the following.

我听过的最重要的陈述之一来自已故的泰德·琼斯（Ted Jones），他可能是过去 500 年来最伟大的神经解剖学家之一，如下所示。

He said, "A drug is a substance that, when injected into an animal or a person, produces a scientific paper."

他说：“药物是一种物质，当注射到动物或人体内时，会产生科学论文。”

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

That is wonderful.

那太棒了。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And in many ways- Yeah.

在很多方面——是的。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Uh.

呃。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

It kind of-

有点像——

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Uh, uh

呃，呃

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

hits you square in the face.

正中你的脸。

Can you go, "Oh, right."

你能说“哦，好吧。”

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I mean, basically, every drug, if taken an hour or two before sleep, changes the amount of REM sleep-

我的意思是，基本上，每种药物如果在睡前一两个小时服用，都会改变快速眼动睡眠的时间——

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

that you get.

你得到的。

And so I could imagine that almost any perturbation of the language system, the body, the facial movement system could give you a, quote unquote, "effect" that you could write a paper about.

所以我可以想象，几乎任何语言系统、身体、面部运动系统的扰动都会给你带来一种“效果”，你可以写一篇论文。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But that doesn't mean it has any semblance whatsoever to-

但这并不意味着它有任何相似之处——

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

what's happening in the world when we or other people experience emotions.

当我们或其他人经历情绪时，世界上正在发生什么。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

There's so much in what you said.

你说的内容真多啊

It's very exciting to talk to you.

与您交谈非常令人兴奋。

So the first thing I'll say is that, we often will identify, we as in the people, but also scientists, identify biological signals by what we believe them to mean psychologically.

因此，我要说的第一件事是，我们经常会识别出，我们作为人们，也包括科学家，通过我们认为它们在心理上的含义来识别生物信号。

So serotonin is a happiness chemical.

所以血清素是一种幸福化学物质。

No, serotonin evolved as a metabolic regulator.

不，血清素是作为代谢调节剂进化而来的。

It is a metabolic regulator.

它是一种代谢调节剂。

And whatever it's doing, it's allowing an animal to spend resources when the animal's brain isn't sure there's a reward at the end of that, right?

无论它在做什么，当动物的大脑不确定最终是否有奖励时，它都会允许动物花费资源，对吗？

So you were saying before, the absence of fatigue, the absence of discomfort, that's a pleasant feeling, right?

所以你之前说，没有疲劳，没有不适，这是一种愉快的感觉，对吗？

Well, yeah.

嗯，是的。

So maybe serotonin has something to do with pleasantness because it has something to do with energetics, right?

所以也许血清素与愉悦感有关，因为它与能量有关，对吗？

Cortisol.

皮质醇。

Cortisol is not a stress hormone.

皮质醇不是一种压力荷尔蒙。

It's not a stress hormone.

它不是压力荷尔蒙。

I mean, it's a hormone that is secreted more when the brain believes that there is a big metabolic outlay that's required.

我的意思是，当大脑认为需要大量的代谢支出时，这种激素就会分泌更多。

That's what stress is, basically.

基本上，这就是压力。

It's the brain believes there's a big metabolic outlay that's about to be required.

大脑认为需要大量的新陈代谢支出。

And it matters.

这很重要。

These kind of little semantic tweaks, they matter a lot because of how we do research.

这些语义上的小调整非常重要，因为我们如何进行研究。

So I would say, I don't start with the categories that derive from English and my own experience.

所以我想说，我不会从源自英语和我自己的经验的类别开始。

I start with the nervous system.

我从神经系统开始。

I try to learn what is the best available evidence for how that nervous system evolved, how it developed, how it's structured, right?

我试图了解关于神经系统如何进化、如何发展、如何构造的最佳证据，对吗？

Anatomy, to me, is very important.

解剖学对我来说非常重要。

Some of my best hypotheses come from just learning the anatomy and realizing, "Oh, there's a connection there.

我的一些最好的假设来自于学习解剖学并意识到，“哦，那里有联系。

That's direct.

那是直接的。

That should mean something." I could give you lots of examples of where we've made discoveries solely because we noticed a set of anatomical connections, and we're really curious about what they might be involved with.

这应该意味着什么。”我可以举出很多例子来说明我们的发现仅仅是因为我们注意到了一组解剖学联系，并且我们真的很好奇它们可能涉及什么。

But if you start with that premise, then you think about the brain, and I think about the brain in a really different way, right?

但如果你从这个前提开始，那么你就会思考大脑，而我会以一种非常不同的方式思考大脑，对吗？

So I don't think about the brain as a stimulus-driven organ.

所以我不认为大脑是一个刺激驱动的器官。

I think about it more like this.

我想更像是这样的。

First of all, the brain is not running a model or making inferences about the world.

首先，大脑并没有运行模型或对世界进行推断。

All the brain knows are signals from the sensory surfaces of its body.

大脑所知道的一切都是来自身体感觉表面的信号。

So your brain is modeling your retina, and it's modeling your cochlea, and it's modeling the sensory surfaces of the skin.

所以你的大脑正在模拟你的视网膜，它正在模拟你的耳蜗，它正在模拟皮肤的感觉表面。

And sure, signals hit those surfaces, and those surfaces transduce those signals and send them up to the brain.

当然，信号会撞击这些表面，这些表面会转换这些信号并将其发送到大脑。

But the brain only knows the body, and anything it knows about the world, it knows about the world through the body, through the sensory surfaces of the body.

但大脑只了解身体，而它所了解的关于世界的一切，都是通过身体、通过身体的感觉表面来了解的。

So that's the first, for me, really big important point.

对我来说，这是第一个非常重要的点。

The second important point is that I think about the brain as being trapped in a dark, silent box called your skull.

第二个要点是，我认为大脑被困在一个黑暗、安静的盒子里，这个盒子叫做头骨。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

And it's so weird saying these things to you.

对你说这些事情真是太奇怪了。

You're this really esteemed neuroscientist, and here I am explaining to you-

你是一位非常受人尊敬的神经科学家，我在这里向你解释——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

No, but-

不，但是——

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

...

...

how I think the brain works.

我认为大脑是如何运作的。

It's just very-

这只是非常-

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Well, it's important for our audience, but it's also important for me, even though, yes, I know these facts, but I believe it's always informative to go back to the fundamentals.

嗯，这对我们的观众很重要，但对我来说也很重要，尽管，是的，我知道这些事实，但我相信回到基本原理总是能提供有用的信息。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Sure.

当然。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Because we forget.

因为我们忘记了。

Actually, someone once described, I'll call him the great because he's a great visual neuroscientist.

事实上，有人曾经描述过，我会称他为伟大的，因为他是一位伟大的视觉神经科学家。

Visual neuroscientist Tony Movshon, who founded the Department of Neuroscience at NYU, once said, "A real intellectual is somebody that can appreciate and work with a topic at multiple levels of granularity."

纽约大学神经科学系的创始人、视觉神经科学家托尼·莫夫森 (Tony Movshon) 曾说过：“真正的知识分子是能够在多个粒度级别上欣赏和研究某个主题的人。”

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Right.

对。

For sure.

一定。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right?

对吗？

And oftentimes, the more expertise is associated with more focus on detail.

通常，专业知识越多，就越注重细节。

So I love returning-

所以我喜欢回来-

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Okay

好的

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

to the core basics.

到核心基础知识。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

So-

所以——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So I think it's wonderful.

所以我认为这很棒。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Okay.

好的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Please continue.

请继续。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

So I think about the brain as being trapped in this box.

所以我认为大脑被困在这个盒子里。

And it's receiving signals continuously from the sensory surfaces of the body, but those signals are the outcomes of some set of changes, and the brain doesn't know what the changes are.

它不断地从身体的感觉表面接收信号，但这些信号是某些变化的结果，而大脑不知道这些变化是什么。

It doesn't know the causes of those signals.

它不知道这些信号的原因。

It just knows the outcomes.

它只知道结果。

It knows the signals.

它知道信号。

That's what it's receiving.

这就是它收到的内容。

And so it has to guess at what the causes of those signals are in order to stay alive.

因此它必须猜测这些信号的原因是什么才能保持活力。

And so that's in philosophy called an inverse problem.

这在哲学中称为逆问题。

So the brain just has a massive continuous inverse problem that it has to deal with all the time.

所以大脑有一个巨大的连续逆问题必须一直处理。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It doesn't have access to all the information.

它无法访问所有信息。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

No.

不。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It's just a guessing machine.

这只是一台猜测机器。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

It's a guessing machine.

这是一台猜测机器。

So for example, if you hear a loud bang, what is that loud bang?

举例来说，如果你听到一声巨响，那是什么巨响？

Could be a car door slamming.

可能是车门关上。

It could be thunder.

可能是雷声。

It could be a car backfiring.

这可能是汽车回火。

It could be a gunshot.

这可能是一声枪响。

The brain doesn't know.

大脑不知道。

It has to guess.

它必须猜测。

And it's not making a guess like intellectual guess.

而且它不像智力猜测那样进行猜测。

The guess is a motor plan.

猜测是一个运动计划。

It's a plan for changing the internal state of the body in order to support skeletal motor movements.

这是一个改变身体内部状态以支持骨骼运动的计划。

Do I need to run?

我需要跑步吗？

Do I need to shut the window?

我需要关窗吗？

Do I need to get an umbrella?

我需要带伞吗？

Do I need to hold my breath because a car is backfired?

我需要屏住呼吸，因为汽车发生了事与愿违吗？

What do I need to do?

我需要做什么？

So where does that plan come from?

那么这个计划从何而来呢？

Well, it comes from past experience, the experience that's been wired into the brain.

嗯，它来自过去的经验，那些已经被植入大脑的经验。

I think that the evidence suggests that what the brain is doing is basically reinstating bits and pieces of past experience, so remembering, although we don't experience ourselves as remembering, but basically it's re-implementing ensembles of signals from the past that are similar to the present in some way.

我认为证据表明，大脑正在做的基本上是恢复过去经验的点点滴滴，所以记忆，虽然我们没有体验到自己的记忆，但基本上它是重新实现过去的信号集合，这些信号在某种程度上与现在相似。

Now, a bunch of things which are similar to each other in psychology is a category.

现在，心理学上一堆彼此相似的事物就是一个范畴。

So what the brain is doing is it's constructing a category, and in fact, we think about the brain as a continuous category constructor.

所以大脑所做的就是构建一个类别，事实上，我们将大脑视为一个连续的类别构造器。

It's constructing a category of possible futures, possible outcomes, possible motor plans, and how does it know which is the right one?

它正在构建一类可能的未来、可能的结果、可能的运动计划，它如何知道哪一个是正确的？

Because it's not just picking one.

因为这不仅仅是选择一个。

There's going to be some sample that it's re-implementing, but how does it know which one?

将会有一些样本需要重新实现，但它如何知道是哪一个呢？

Which is the right one?

哪一个是正确的？

Because there can only be one.

因为只能有一个。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Well, I feel like in the example of a loud noise, what I immediately thought of as you were describing that is that my system would become aware of it.

嗯，我觉得在大声噪音的例子中，当你描述的时候我立即想到的是我的系统会意识到它。

I would become aware of it, but then it's a question of, is there another loud noise?

我会意识到这一点，但接下来的问题是，是否还有另一声巨响？

How closely are those loud noises spaced?

这些巨大噪音的间隔有多近？

Is it getting louder or less loud?

声音是变大了还是变小了？

And so a bunch of categories, it's like a bookshelf with an infinite number of books.

等等一堆类别，就像一个书架，里面有无限多的书。

But then with the second loud noise, now it's just one wing of the library.

但随着第二声巨响，现在只剩下图书馆的一侧了。

And then with the next thing that happens and the context, it starts narrowing, and then pretty soon you get presented with the book that says, "The roof is about to cave in."

然后随着接下来发生的事情和背景，它开始缩小，然后很快你就会看到这本书，上面写着“屋顶即将塌陷”。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

For sure.

当然。

And I think your analogy there is pointing out two things.

我认为你的类比指出了两件事。

One is that really what the brain is attempting to do is to reduce uncertainty.

一是大脑真正想做的是减少不确定性。

Because uncertainty is super expensive.

因为不确定性的成本非常高。

Now, sometimes we deliberately cultivate uncertainty, right?

现在，有时我们故意培养不确定性，对吧？

We deliberately try to learn things that we don't know.

我们故意尝试学习我们不知道的东西。

We put ourselves in novel situations.

我们将自己置于新的情境中。

We seek novelty because it's fun and interesting and whatever, sure.

我们追求新奇，因为它有趣、有趣等等，当然。

But imagine every single waking moment of your life was like that, where you didn't know, you couldn't narrow things down from the library to the wing to the bookshelf to the particular shelf on that bookshelf to the-

但想象一下你生命中每一个醒着的时刻都是这样，你不知道，你无法将范围缩小到从图书馆到侧翼到书架到书架上的特定书架到-

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It'd be terrifying.

那就太可怕了

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It would be terrifying.

那会很可怕。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Yeah, it would be.

是的，会的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

That's the label I would give it.

这就是我会给它的标签。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It would be terrifying.

那会很可怕。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Because I couldn't plan anything or do anything because all possibilities are open.

因为我无法计划任何事情或做任何事情，因为所有可能性都是开放的。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Right.

对。

And it's just actually metabolically unsustainable, and there are some brains that are wired in a way that they don't predict very well.

实际上，这在新陈代谢上是不可持续的，而且有些大脑的连接方式无法很好地预测。

They don't create these categories very well.

他们并没有很好地创建这些类别。

And so they're dealing with really unbelievable amounts of uncertainty.

因此，他们正在应对大量令人难以置信的不确定性。

So that's one thing.

所以这是一回事。

But the part of what's the goal here, if you could say there's a goal, is to reduce uncertainty.

但这里的目标，如果你可以说有一个目标的话，就是减少不确定性。

And I'm going to get to why this has anything to do with emotion in a minute, but I just need to set up the ground rules or the assumptions of what I'm working with here.

我很快就会明白为什么这与情绪有关，但我只需要建立基本规则或我在这里工作的假设。

So the other thing, though, that you pointed out, which I think is really important, is that none of this is static.

不过，您指出的另一件事（我认为非常重要）是，所有这些都不是静态的。

It's all evolving over time, right?

这一切都随着时间的推移而发展，对吗？

The signals are evolving over time.

这些信号随着时间的推移而不断变化。

So both the signals that are constantly hitting the sensory surfaces of the body and making their way to the brain, but also the intrinsic signals in the brain.

因此，不仅是不断撞击身体感觉表面并进入大脑的信号，而且还包括大脑中的内在信号。

It's all changing over time.

随着时间的推移，这一切都在改变。

So when we talk about context, that's important.

因此，当我们谈论背景时，这一点很重要。

How is the brain making a decision about similarity?

大脑如何对相似性做出决定？

What are the features that are similar?

有哪些相似的特点？

It's not just at a single snapshot in time.

这不仅仅是一个时间快照。

It's always happening dynamically over time, right?

它总是随着时间的推移而动态发生，对吧？

And most of the time, though, you don't wait to hear a second sound.

但大多数时候，您不会等到听到第二个声音。

You're not deliberately attempting to figure out what the sound is.

你并不是故意试图找出声音是什么。

Your brain is just sorting it out, right?

你的大脑正在整理它，对吗？

And it's sorting it out by narrowing down the possibilities, and there are some selection mechanisms in the brain that help it guess better.

它通过缩小可能性来进行分类，大脑中有一些选择机制可以帮助它更好地猜测。

But also, the signals coming from the world are also helping to select which possibility is the right one.

而且，来自世界各地的信号也有助于选择哪种可能性是正确的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

There's this scene that comes to mind from that movie, I think it was "Saving Private Ryan," where the guys that are about to hit the ground on D-Day are flinching with every crack of gunfire.

我想起了那部电影中的一个场景，我想那是《拯救大兵瑞恩》，在诺曼底登陆日即将倒地的人们随着每一声枪响而瑟瑟发抖。

Everything's a stimulus to move-

一切都是行动的刺激——

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Right

右

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

and to end.

并结束。

And then some of the more seasoned ...

然后是一些更有经验的...

soldiers are literally having bullets whizzing by their head, and people are dropping dead all around them, and they're moving forward steely-eyed and stable and upright.

士兵们的头上确实有子弹呼啸而过，他们周围的人都倒在地上死去，而他们却坚定地向前迈进，稳定而直立。

And in part, we look at that and say, "Okay, they're courageous, they're seasoned, maybe they're desensitized in certain ways." But actually, based on what you're saying, it fits much better with the idea that they have intimate knowledge, both conscious and unconscious knowledge, that something right next to them is a threat, but not a threat worth responding to.

在某种程度上，我们看到这一点并说，“好吧，他们很勇敢，他们经验丰富，也许他们在某些方面变得麻木了。”但实际上，根据你所说的，它更符合这样的想法：他们拥有亲密的知识，有意识和无意识的知识，他们旁边的东西是威胁，但不值得回应。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Right.

对。

Exactly.

确切地。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But if it were headed straight for them-

但如果它直接冲向他们——

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

they would quite understandably duck.

他们会躲开，这是可以理解的。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

What I would say is that I keep referring to things as signals, and really that's my generic word for a quantity of energy of some sort.

我想说的是，我一直将事物称为信号，实际上这是我对某种能量的通用词。

But your brain, my brain, every brain is constantly making signal noise distinctions.

但是你的大脑，我的大脑，每个大脑都在不断地区分信号噪声。

Do I need to care about this?

我需要关心这个吗？

Do I not need to care about this, right?

我不需要关心这个吧？

And we have ways of learning, and we also have ways of cuing each other.

我们有学习的方式，也有互相暗示的方式。

So humans use eye gaze to cue each other about what is signal and what is noise, right?

所以人类利用目光来相互提示什么是信号什么是噪音，对吗？

So if you and I were sitting, let's say we were at a coffee shop, and we were in a part of town that I'd never been to before, and we were sitting having coffee, and a loud siren went by.

所以，如果你和我坐着，假设我们在一家咖啡店，我们在城镇的一个我以前从未去过的地方，我们坐着喝咖啡，突然响起了响亮的警报声。

If you turned and looked, I would probably turn and look because you just cued me that that was something I need to care about.

如果你转身看，我可能也会转身看，因为你只是暗示我这是我需要关心的事情。

If you ignored it, I would probably ignore it because you just cued me that I didn't need to worry about it.

如果你忽略它，我可能会忽略它，因为你只是暗示我不需要担心它。

I didn't need to care.

我不需要关心。

And we're constantly doing that with each other, and we also do it with little babies and with kids, and that's how we teach children.

我们经常互相这样做，我们也对小婴儿和孩子们这样做，这就是我们教育孩子的方式。

This is signal, this is noise.

这是信号，这是噪声。

This you need to worry about, this you can ignore.

这个你需要担心，这个你可以忽略。

And so yeah, your description is perfect.

是的，你的描述很完美。

So what does any of this have to do with emotion?

那么这与情感有什么关系呢？

In order to answer that part of the question, I want to say, so okay, you've got these signals.

为了回答这部分问题，我想说，好吧，你已经得到了这些信号。

The brain has these electrical signals going on.

大脑正在发出这些电信号。

We'll just ignore the hormonal signals for the moment because one is complicated.

我们暂时忽略荷尔蒙信号，因为荷尔蒙信号很复杂。

So it's got all these electrical signals going on.

所以所有这些电信号都在发生。

When it's remembering something, it's just basically reinstating a pattern of signals.

当它记住某件事时，它基本上只是恢复一种信号模式。

And it's got these signals coming in from the sensory surfaces.

它从感觉表面传来这些信号。

Okay, so what is the brain doing?

好吧，那么大脑在做什么呢？

It's a signal processor.

它是一个信号处理器。

I don't mean a computer, I mean a signal processor in the engineering sense.

我指的不是计算机，而是工程意义上的信号处理器。

So what is it doing?

那么它在做什么呢？

Without getting into all the dynamics of prediction and whatever, what the brain is doing is it's assembling a set of features.

在不涉及预测的所有动态和其他因素的情况下，大脑正在做的就是组装一组特征。

Some of the features that it's assembling are very close in detail to the sensory surfaces of the body.

它所组装的一些特征在细节上非常接近身体的感官表面。

So in primary visual cortex, there's a retinotopic map.

所以在初级视觉皮层中，有一个视网膜专题图。

The details there are very, very low level, like a line, an edge.

那里的细节非常非常低级，比如一条线、一条边缘。

Same thing in primary auditory cortex, right?

初级听觉皮层也有同样的情况，对吧？

It's tonotopic, so there are tones.

它是声调主题，所以有声调。

But it's very, very, very low-level details.

但这是非常、非常、非常低级的细节。

And there are many of these little features, so we would say it's a high-dimensional array.

而且这些小特征有很多，所以我们可以说它是一个高维数组。

Lots and lots of features.

很多很多的功能。

And let's just talk about one structure, just the cerebral cortex.

我们只讨论一种结构，即大脑皮层。

But what I'm about to say is basically true of really the rest of the brain as well.

但我要说的基本上也适用于大脑的其他部分。

If you take the cortex off the surface of the cortical sheet, off that wavy cortical sheet, you take it off the rest of the brain, the subcortical parts, and you stretch it out like a napkin, you can see there's a compression gradient there in the architecture of the neurons.

如果你把皮质从皮质片的表面上取下来，从波浪形的皮质片上取下来，你把它从大脑的其余部分，即皮质下部分上取下来，然后像餐巾纸一样将它展开，你可以看到神经元结构中存在压缩梯度。

So at the primary sensory areas, there are these tiny little pyramidal neurons that are representing these very low-level features, and they feed into bigger neurons, which feed into bigger neurons, which feed into bigger neurons.

因此，在初级感觉区域，有这些微小的锥体神经元代表这些非常低级的特征，它们馈送到更大的神经元，更大的神经元馈送到更大的神经元，更大的神经元馈送到更大的神经元。

So what's happening is you've got this very detailed array being compressed in its dimensionality until you get to the middle of the brain at the front, where there are many fewer neurons, but they're bigger, and they have many more connections.

所以发生的情况是，这个非常详细的数组在其维度上被压缩，直到到达大脑前部的中部，那里的神经元要少得多，但它们更大，并且有更多的连接。

So it's a dimensionality reduction that's happening.

所以这是正在发生的降维。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So just to make sure I understand correctly and that the audience understands, the physical world obviously is transformed by our sensory apparati, the retina, the cochlea, the sensing neurons in our skin.

因此，为了确保我理解正确并且观众理解，物理世界显然是由我们的感觉器官、视网膜、耳蜗、皮肤中的感知神经元所改变的。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Yep.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It's physical things, mechanical pressure-

这是物理上的东西，机械压力——

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

light, photons, sound waves.

光、光子、声波。

Okay.

好的。

That's translated into neural code, which is chemical and electrical.

它被转化为神经代码，即化学和电学代码。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Yep.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And those sensory inputs are fairly vast and high dimensionality.

这些感官输入相当庞大且维度很高。

So lots of different orientations of lines.

所以有很多不同方向的线条。

Even though it originates with just three cone photopigments, lots of opportunity for encoding different shades of color, contrast-

尽管它起源于仅三种锥体感光颜料，但有很多机会编码不同的颜色深浅、对比度-

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

okay, and all of that.

好吧，还有所有这些。

And so you have lots of little neurons to represent all the possibilities of the physical world that are occurring.

所以你有很多小神经元来代表物理世界正在发生的所有可能性。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But as that information is passed further up along, excuse me, I have to be careful with the use of hierarchies because that's controversial nowadays.

但是，随着这些信息的进一步传递，请原谅，我必须小心使用层次结构，因为这在当今是有争议的。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Not for political reasons, but-

不是出于政治原因，而是——

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

for accuracy reasons.

出于准确性原因。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

As that information is passed along, there's more convergence-

随着信息的传递，会有更多的融合——

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

onto a smaller number of larger neurons.

到较少数量的较大神经元上。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So these are neurons that have access to a lot of information, but in coarser form.

因此，这些神经元可以访问大量信息，但形式较粗糙。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Right.

对。

It's like compressing an MP3, like how an MP3 compresses information, for example.

这就像压缩 MP3，就像 MP3 如何压缩信息一样。

So the cortex is representing features.

所以皮层代表特征。

And represent, I'm just using that in a generic way-

代表，我只是以通用的方式使用它-

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Sure

当然可以

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

...

...

because that's also controversial about exactly how is the brain-

因为关于大脑到底是如何运作的也存在争议——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Okay.

好的。

But yeah.

但是是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But it works.

但它有效。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

But for now, I'm using it just-

但现在，我只是使用它-

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Works

作品

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

...

...

in a generic way.

以一般的方式。

So you go from lines and edges to a shape, like a round shape, to a face.

所以你从线条和边缘到一个形状，比如圆形，再到一张脸。

So basically, you're What's happening is there are summaries of summaries of summaries of summaries.

所以基本上，你正在发生的事情是有总结的总结的总结的总结。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Oh, I love that.

哦，我喜欢那个。

I hope everyone hears that, because I've been in this field of neuroscience a long time.

我希望每个人都听到这一点，因为我已经在神经科学领域工作了很长时间。

As you move along the neuraxis from the sensory epithelium, now it sounds very nomenclature-ish, but from the surface of the skin inward, you're getting summaries.

当您从感觉上皮沿着神经轴移动时，现在听起来很像术语，但从皮肤表面向内，您会得到摘要。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Ascend more and more summaries.

提升越来越多的总结。

I think that's so important.

我认为这非常重要。

That's a gazillion-dollar statement-

这是一份价值数百万美元的声明——

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Thank you

谢谢你

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

for understanding the nervous system.

以了解神经系统。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

But each of those points correspond to some mental feature, like a line or an edge or a circle or a square or a face.

但这些点中的每一个都对应于一些心理特征，比如一条线、一条边、一个圆、一个正方形或一个面。

But now, when you're in the midline at the front, what are those features?

但现在，当你处于前面的中线时，这些特征是什么？

Well, those features are things like, they are multimodal summaries, meaning they are summaries of the sights and sounds and smells.

嗯，这些特征就像是多模态摘要，这意味着它们是景象、声音和气味的摘要。

And they are lower dimensional, meaning they're coarser.

而且它们的维度较低，这意味着它们更粗糙。

So they're things like threat, reward, pleasure.

所以它们是诸如威胁、奖励、快乐之类的东西。

Really abstract.

真的很抽象。

That's what abstract means.

这就是抽象的意思。

It doesn't mean that those representations have no sensory or motor meaning.

这并不意味着这些表征没有感觉或运动意义。

It means that threat, for example, a summary, can have many different patterns associated with it, and the brain is treating them all as equivalent.

这意味着威胁（例如摘要）可以有许多不同的与之相关的模式，并且大脑将它们视为同等的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

This, to me, again, feels so, so important for people to understand because, as I'm hearing this, and this word summaries is just ringing in my mind, it's so important because one of the core components of my experience of my emotions, because that's all I can really say, for sure, my subjective interpretation and labeling of my own emotions is that they are pretty broad bins, like I described earlier.

对我来说，这对人们理解来说非常非常重要，因为当我听到这个时，这个词摘要在我脑海中响起，它非常重要，因为这是我情绪体验的核心组成部分之一，因为这就是我真正能说的，当然，我对自己情绪的主观解释和标签是，它们是相当广泛的分类，就像我之前描述的那样。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

They are pretty broad bins.

它们是相当宽的垃圾箱。

And so that's exactly where I was going.

这正是我要去的地方。

So what about the word anger?

那么愤怒这个词呢？

Where is that represented?

它代表在哪里？

Well, that's one of these multimodal abstractions.

嗯，这是多模式抽象之一。

In fact, anger is just a couple of phonemes.

事实上，愤怒只是几个音素。

It's a couple of sounds.

这是几个声音。

But those sounds, the sound of anger corresponds over thousands of instances that you've learned in your life to very different patterns-

但那些声音，愤怒的声音对应着你在生活中学到的数千种非常不同的模式——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

...

...

of sensory motor features.

感觉运动特征。

That's right.

这是正确的。

Because what's going on in your body during anger can vary.

因为愤怒期间你的身体发生的情况可能会有所不同。

The way you move your face in anger can vary depending on the situation.

愤怒时移动脸部的方式可能会根据具体情况而有所不同。

What you see someone else doing in anger can vary.

你所看到的其他人在愤怒时所做的事情可能会有所不同。

And so the word anger, or any word, is actually just a multimodal summary of many, many, many, many instances which are, in their sensory and motor features, the sensory and motor meaning, very different.

因此，“愤怒”这个词，或者任何一个词，实际上只是许多、许多、许多、许多实例的多模态总结，这些实例的感觉和运动特征、感觉和运动含义非常不同。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And it seems to me, are highly constrained by developmental and cultural experience.

在我看来，这很大程度上受到发展和文化经验的限制。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Absolutely.

绝对的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Because just today, I learned that there's a word in Japan for the feeling that one has of having gotten a haircut they don't like.

因为就在今天，我了解到在日本有一个词来形容一个人剪了不喜欢的发型的感觉。

There's a word in Germany that pertains to the feeling of wanting to punch someone specifically because of the look on their face.

德国有一个词，指的是因为某人的表情而想打他的感觉。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Well, really, to you, it feels like they're asking to be punched in the face.

嗯，真的，对你来说，感觉就像是他们要求挨一拳打在脸上。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Got it.

明白了。

So you added yet more dimensionality to it.

所以你给它添加了更多的维度。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So upon learning just those things, just today, there is additional dimensionality brought in, such that if I were to ever want to punch somebody in the face simply because of the look on their face, that I wouldn't necessarily label that as anger alone.

因此，在学习这些东西后，就在今天，引入了额外的维度，这样，如果我仅仅因为某人脸上的表情就想打他的脸，我不一定会将其标记为单独的愤怒。

It now has another dimension to it.

现在它有了另一个维度。

And so I think I'm finally starting to understand how the developmental and the cultural influences, plus the fact that language is a pretty crude descriptor for this neural process that you're describing.

所以我想我终于开始理解发展和文化是如何影响的，再加上语言是你所描述的这个神经过程的一个相当粗略的描述符这一事实。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Oh, it's absolutely.

哦，绝对是的。

But before you use the word granularity, and so I'm going to use that word, too.

但在你使用“粒度”这个词之前，我也将使用这个词。

In fact, I've coined that phrase, emotional granularity.

事实上，我创造了这个词：情感粒度。

Just as an aside, I coined that phrase almost 30 years ago, and now people study it like it's a phenomenon, which is cool in a sense, but also I kind of want to keep reminding them, that's a word that refers to a process.

顺便说一句，我在大约 30 年前创造了这个词，现在人们把它当作一种现象来研究，这在某种意义上很酷，但我也想不断提醒他们，这个词指的是一个过程。

It's not a thing, it's a process.

这不是一个东西，而是一个过程。

But the process is, so when the brain is a category constructor, how fine-grained are the categories?

但过程是，那么当大脑是一个类别构造器时，类别的粒度有多细呢？

How precise are the categories?

类别的精确度如何？

If your feature of equivalence that your brain is using is threat, you're in really big trouble, because there are a gazillion different sensory motor patterns that could go with threat.

如果你的大脑使用的等价特征是威胁，那么你就遇到了很大的麻烦，因为有无数种不同的感觉运动模式可能与威胁相关。

So your category is going to be massive.

所以你的类别将会很大。

So how does the brain figure out which of those massive number of options is the one to use in this instance?

那么，大脑如何确定在这种情况下应该使用大量选项中的哪一个呢？

If, on the other hand, you don't just want to use sensory motor patterns as the features of equivalence, or the features that you're using to say, "This instance right now is similar to these past instances." If I had to search right now what is similar to right now, it would be me sitting across the table from somebody who has a beard and is dressed in black.

另一方面，如果您不仅仅想使用感觉运动模式作为等价特征，或者您用来表示“现在的实例与过去的实例相似”的特征。如果我现在必须搜索与现在相似的东西，那就是我坐在桌子对面，旁边是一个留着胡子、穿着黑衣服的人。

There are a lot of details there that probably don't matter.

那里有很多可能并不重要的细节。

So you'd be searching for a specific match from the past.

因此，您将搜索过去的特定匹配项。

That's not very efficient either.

这也不是很有效率。

So you need something in the middle, and that is to say, your brain has to be able to make categories that are more fine-grained, but not super fine-grained, but they have to be more fine-grained than just threat.

所以你需要中间的东西，也就是说，你的大脑必须能够做出更细粒度的类别，但不是超细粒度的，但它们必须比仅仅威胁更细粒度。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah, in the library analogy that I made earlier, you want to keep the rest of the library accessible at some level.

是的，在我之前所做的图书馆类比中，您希望在某种程度上保持图书馆的其余部分可访问。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So you're not just staring at that one book.

所以你不只是盯着那一本书。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

But if you use the category bad, this feels bad, then your brain is basically going to be partially constructing an entire wing full of books, like an entire wing full of options.

但如果你使用不好的类别，这感觉很糟糕，那么你的大脑基本上会部分地构建一个充满书籍的整个机翼，就像一个充满选项的整个机翼。

If you use the word angry, then maybe it's a bookcase.

如果你用愤怒这个词，那么也许它是一个书架。

It's constructing a bookcase full of options and a category that's the size of a bookcase.

它正在构建一个充满选项的书柜和一个书柜大小的类别。

And if you were using the word frustrated, then maybe it's a shelf.

如果你用的是“沮丧”这个词，那么也许它是一个架子。

The brain can learn to construct categories at different scales of generalizability.

大脑可以学习在不同的概括性范围内构建类别。

So if I'm in an instance and my brain is making a guess, is it drawing from past instances that were associated with the word anger, were associated with the word fear?

因此，如果我处于一个实例中，并且我的大脑正在做出猜测，那么它是否是从过去与“愤怒”一词相关的实例中提取的，与“恐惧”一词相关联的？

Maybe it's some combination.

也许这是某种组合。

The words are just features.

这些词只是特征。

They're just sounds.

它们只是声音。

There are also all sorts of other features, like what was my heart doing?

还有各种其他特征，比如我的心在做什么？

What kind of motor actions did I make?

我做了什么样的运动动作？

What did I see next?

接下来我看到了什么？

So the point that I'm trying to bring here is that it's not like your brain creates an emotional state and then labels it.

所以我想在这里指出的一点是，你的大脑并不是创造一种情绪状态，然后给它贴上标签。

What your brain is doing is creating a category of possible futures of what it's going to do next.

你的大脑正在做的事情是为它接下来要做的事情创建一个可能的未来类别。

And that state is largely determined by what the brain is remembering and how it's drawing from that huge population, that huge library of options.

这种状态很大程度上取决于大脑正在记住什么以及它如何从庞大的人口和巨大的选择库中汲取信息。

Which books is it sampling?

抽样了哪些书？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I love this so much because it explains so much that, frankly, has been perplexing to me and also somewhat troubling to me.

我非常喜欢这个，因为它解释了很多，坦率地说，这让我感到困惑，也让我有些不安。

Like for instance, we hear about emotional intelligence.

例如，我们听说过情商。

And sometimes I wonder whether or not true emotional intelligence would be what you just described, the understanding of how this process works so that you can work with it.

有时我想知道真正的情商是否就是你刚才所描述的那样，理解这个过程如何运作，以便你可以使用它。

And I definitely want to talk about how one can work with this knowledge, because I think it's incredibly powerful in its explanatory power, but also its actionable power.

我绝对想谈谈如何利用这些知识，因为我认为它的解释力非常强大，而且具有可操作性。

The other thing is that it's clear to me, just based on my experience today of hearing these words from other cultures that relate to different emotional states, that the system, unlike a lot of systems in the brain, I like to think is fairly plastic.

另一件事是，根据我今天从其他文化中听到的与不同情绪状态相关的词语的经验，我很清楚，与大脑中的许多系统不同，我认为该系统具有相当的可塑性。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

The moment that you know that there are additional dimensions to sadness, anger, et cetera, there's something comforting about that.

当你知道悲伤、愤怒等还有其他维度的那一刻，你就会感到一些安慰。

What's really unsettling is the idea that we have such broad bins that we would define a near infinite number of situations as just fear.

真正令人不安的是，我们有如此广泛的分类，以至于我们将几乎无数的情况定义为恐惧。

That would suck.

那会很糟糕。

That's not a good existence.

那不是一个好的存在。

And yet, I have to ask whether or not you think that as a species, not as a culture, but in our entire species, whether or not we are taking the exact opposite approach, that we're sort of moving into the emojiization.

然而，我不得不问你是否认为作为一个物种，而不是作为一种文化，而是在我们整个物种中，我们是否采取了完全相反的方法，我们正在进入表情符号化。

Is that a word?

这是一个词吗？

I'll make it a word, then people can assault me in the comments.

我会把它说出来，然后人们就可以在评论中攻击我。

The emojiization of this very rich and complex system.

这个非常丰富和复杂的系统的表情符号。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

We're starting to get into this mode of like, I'm going to post an angry face and therefore, I'm angry at you.

我们开始进入这种模式，比如，我要发布一张愤怒的脸，因此，我对你很生气。

This is a bad interaction.

这是一种不好的互动。

It's potentially combative.

它具有潜在的战斗力。

And maybe Twitter, X, or Instagram, or other social media sites are kind of the epitome of this, where you reduce this high dimensional space and you keep the sensory stimulation very high.

也许 Twitter、X、Instagram 或其他社交媒体网站就是这种情况的缩影，在这些网站中，你可以减少这个高维空间，同时保持很高的感官刺激。

It's movie after movie after movie, and color and sound, and people doing crazy parkour stuff, and bears eating giraffes or whatever it is.

这是一部又一部的电影，还有色彩和声音，人们在做疯狂的跑酷动作，还有熊吃长颈鹿或其他什么东西。

Probably not bears eating giraffes, but you know what I mean.

也许熊不吃长颈鹿，但你知道我的意思。

And you can see stuff that's sexual and violent and political and emotional and sweet, and then the cats are kissing the monkey, or the monkey's kissing the cat.

你可以看到性、暴力、政治、情感和甜蜜的东西，然后猫在亲吻猴子，或者猴子在亲吻猫。

And so it's high dimensionality in terms of sensory space.

因此，就感觉空间而言，它是高维的。

But then what do we call it?

但是我们怎么称呼它呢？

We're like, "Oh, this is an emoji." You assign an emoji.

我们会说，“哦，这是一个表情符号。”您分配一个表情符号。

You're hearting something.

你正在热衷于某事。

You're giving a thumbs up or a thumbs down.

你是竖起大拇指还是竖起大拇指。

So I almost feel like we're regressing to a state where we're kind of like an infant trying to figure out what the hell is going on, and we're saying, "You know what?

所以我几乎觉得我们正在退回到一种状态，我们就像一个婴儿，试图弄清楚到底发生了什么，然后我们说，“你知道吗？

You get six categories of response." When in reality, we should probably be expanding the number of different responses that we can have in order to accurately match the way that our nervous system actually works.

你会得到六类回应。”实际上，我们可能应该扩大我们可以做出的不同反应的数量，以便准确地匹配我们神经系统的实际工作方式。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Yes, exactly.

是的，完全正确。

There are many different things we could talk about with respect to the summary that you just gave, which I think is completely accurate.

关于你刚才的总结，我们可以讨论很多不同的事情，我认为这是完全准确的。

So what I would say is that if you look through even just the last, I don't know, 100 or so years, like the 19th, 20th centuries maybe, you can see that the complexity of people's responses expands and contracts, right?

所以我想说的是，如果你回顾过去，我不知道，100 年左右，比如 19、20 世纪，你会发现人们反应的复杂性在扩大和缩小，对吗？

So for example, this is something that I've written really speculatively about.

举例来说，这是我写过的非常具有推测性的内容。

But one of the things that I found really interesting is that authoritarianism, authoritarian thinking is the reduction of complexity to some things that are really, really simple.

但我发现真正有趣的一件事是，威权主义、威权思维是将复杂性降低到一些非常非常简单的事情。

Like you're getting rid of all the complexity to basically these very, very coarse, low dimensional judgments, and things become black and white.

就像你摆脱了基本上这些非常非常粗糙、低维判断的所有复杂性一样，事情变得黑白分明。

It's the avoidance of complexity, so that there can be simple, single answers to things.

这是为了避免复杂性，这样事情就可以有简单、单一的答案。

And it happens in human culture at times, and then there's an expansion of complexity at times, too.

这种情况有时会在人类文化中发生，而且有时也会出现复杂性的扩展。

So what predicts that What is it in the human nervous system or our collective human nervous, we're just a bunch of brains attached to bodies interacting with other brains and bodies, right?

那么，什么预示着人类神经系统或人类集体神经中的内容是什么？我们只是一堆附着在身体上的大脑，与其他大脑和身体相互作用，对吧？

So what is it that causes these ripples of...

那么到底是什么引起了这些涟漪……

And I have some thoughts about that that are really, really, really speculative.

我对此有一些非常非常推测性的想法。

But I think the other thing that's really important is that we've talked about, so we'll go back to our cortical sheet that we've-- And by the way, this is just one compression gradient in the brain.

但我认为另一件真正重要的事情是我们已经讨论过的，所以我们将回到我们的皮质层——顺便说一句，这只是大脑中的一个压缩梯度。

There are others, too, right?

还有其他人，对吧？

There are at least four others that I can think of.

我至少能想到其他四个。

So this is just one.

所以这只是其中之一。

But all compression gradients work the same way, which is that now we've talked about going from the low-level details, compressing to these multimodal summaries, these really simple features that are-- Right.

但所有压缩梯度的工作方式都是相同的，也就是说，现在我们已经讨论了从低级细节、压缩到这些多模态摘要，这些非常简单的功能是——对的。

But that compression is what engineers would call lossy, meaning you lose the information.

但这种压缩被工程师称为有损压缩，这意味着您会丢失信息。

You lose the information.

你会丢失信息。

So when you go from lines and edges to a face, those neurons, they just know the face.

因此，当你从线条和边缘转向脸部时，这些神经元只知道脸部。

They lose what they've thrown away, the details they've thrown away.

他们失去了他们所丢弃的东西，他们所丢弃的细节。

Those details are gone for those neurons that are representing a face.

对于代表脸部的神经元来说，这些细节已经消失了。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

They don't have access to that.

他们无权访问该内容。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

They don't have access to it.

他们无权访问它。

So we said, well, the brain is making a guess.

所以我们说，好吧，大脑正在做出猜测。

It's making a guess about what this big, very high-dimensional soup of signals in the world and in the body, what do they mean, right?

它正在猜测世界和身体中这个巨大的、非常高维的信号汤是什么，它们意味着什么，对吗？

When the brain makes a guess, it starts with the compressed low-dimensional signals.

当大脑进行猜测时，它从压缩的低维信号开始。

It starts with the features like anger or threat, or it starts with these summaries, and then it has to infer or guess.

它从愤怒或威胁等特征开始，或者从这些摘要开始，然后必须推断或猜测。

At every synapse, there's a guess that's being made about what the details are at the next level.

在每个突触处，都会对下一个级别的细节进行猜测。

Because what's happening is the guess is basically the brain going from these really general things to these very specific sensory motor patterns.

因为所发生的事情基本上是大脑从这些非常普遍的事物转变为这些非常具体的感觉运动模式。

It happens along the cortical sheet.

它沿着皮质层发生。

It happens also down the neuraxis, from the cortex to the midbrain, to the brain stem, to the spinal cord.

它也沿着神经轴发生，从皮质到中脑，到脑干，到脊髓。

You have to go from a representation of run to the actual physical movements of muscle spindles and angles of joints and things like that.

你必须从跑步的表现转向肌梭和关节角度等的实际物理运动。

So what you're doing is you're going in the other direction.

所以你所做的就是朝另一个方向前进。

You're adding detail.

你正在添加细节。

You're particularizing.

你说得很具体。

And the brain is guessing.

大脑正在猜测。

It's guessing, well, if it's using anger as the general feature, well, which instance of anger is it, and what are the specifics that are going to happen?

它正在猜测，如果它使用愤怒作为一般特征，那么它是哪种愤怒实例，以及将要发生的具体情况是什么？

And-

还有——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And forgive me, but what are the adaptive steps that I might take or not take?

请原谅我，但是我可以采取或不采取哪些适应性步骤？

Because I'm quoting a lot today, so forgive me, but in the words of the great Sherrington, Nobel Prize-winning physiologist, the final common pathway is movement.

因为我今天引用了很多，所以请原谅我，但用伟大的诺贝尔奖获得者生理学家谢林顿的话来说，最后的共同途径是运动。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Is movement.

是运动。

And that's-

那就是——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And movement is nuanced, right?

而且动作是微妙的，对吧？

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Humans, I suppose, have among the greatest variety of different speeds and types of movement.

我想，人类的运动速度和类型是多种多样的。

I think about parkour or gymnastics.

我想到跑酷或体操。

Think about then what a cheetah can do.

想想猎豹能做什么。

Cheetahs are impressive.

猎豹令人印象深刻。

A gymnast is truly impressive in terms of the range of movements and speeds, et cetera.

体操运动员在动作范围和速度等方面确实令人印象深刻。

In any event, the ultimate choice that the nervous system has to make is whether or not to move, which direction, how fast, or stay still.

无论如何，神经系统必须做出的最终选择是是否移动、向哪个方向移动、多快或保持静止。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Move forward, move back.

前进，后退。

And I'll just add, because I'm hoping that you'll expand on this.

我只是补充一下，因为我希望你能对此进行扩展。

It's been said before that ultimately, the nervous system is trying to make decisions about yum, yuck, or meh.

之前有人说过，最终，神经系统会尝试做出关于“yum”、“yuck”或“meh”的决定。

Like, am I going to move towards something?

比如，我要走向某事吗？

Am I going to move away from it, or am I just going to stay put?

我是要离开它，还是要留在原地？

And-

还有——

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Well, that's only at the-- I would say that those are very low-dimensional features.

嗯，这只是——我想说的是，这些都是非常低维的特征。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

So those are those compressed features, but that's not the only thing the brain has to decide.

这些就是那些压缩的特征，但这并不是大脑必须决定的唯一事情。

That's just a misnomer.

这只是一个用词不当。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Well, I can get out of this little pickle that I just put myself in by saying that I didn't say that.

好吧，我可以通过说我没有说过那样的话来摆脱我刚刚给自己带来的这个小麻烦。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

No, I know you didn't.

不，我知道你没有。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And now I won't quote who did, because he's a very famous neuroscientist.

现在我不会引用是谁做的，因为他是一位非常著名的神经科学家。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

No.

不。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But he tried to reduce it all.

但他试图减少这一切。

He's at Caltech.

他在加州理工学院。

He's not somebody who studies emotion.

他不是研究情感的人。

He studies the visual system.

他研究视觉系统。

But he said that the neural circuits, maybe it's because he studies mice, are essentially binned into yum, yuck, and meh outputs.

但他说，神经回路，也许是因为他研究老鼠的缘故，基本上被分为“yum”、“yuck”和“meh”输出。

And I've always liked it on the one hand because threes work and it's simple, but rarely is the way-

一方面，我一直很喜欢它，因为三分球很有效，而且很简单，但很少是这样的——

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Okay

好的

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

that we describe things the way it actually works.

我们按照事物实际运作的方式来描述事物。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Yeah.

是的。

So in studying humans, we would say, well, that's affect.

所以在研究人类时，我们会说，这就是情感。

Affect, that's mood.

影响，就是心情。

Or it's just like, should I move towards it?

或者只是想，我应该朝这个方向前进吗？

Is it pleasant?

令人愉快吗？

Should I move away from it?

我应该远离它吗？

Is it unpleasant?

是不是很不愉快？

Or is it irrelevant, basically, like I don't care.

或者说这根本无关紧要，就像我不在乎一样。

Okay, think about when you're feeling horrible.

好吧，想想你什么时候感觉很糟糕。

You just feel bad.

你只是感觉不好。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

What do you do?

你做什么？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You don't know what to do.

你不知道该怎么办。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

You don't know.

你不知道。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Because you don't have a plan of action.

因为你没有行动计划。

And that's ultimately, that is what those compressed summary features, those very low course features, they have to be decompressed into details.

最终，这就是那些压缩的摘要特征，那些非常低级的特征，它们必须被解压缩为细节。

Otherwise, you don't know what to do.

否则，你不知道该怎么办。

So ultimately, what the brain is doing is it's sampling from the past based on similarity to the present to plan an action.

所以最终，大脑所做的就是根据过去与现在的相似性进行采样来计划行动。

And when I say action, I don't just mean skeletal motor action, like moving a limb.

当我说动作时，我不仅仅指骨骼运动动作，例如移动肢体。

The first actions that are planned are the actions of coordinating the heart and the lungs and all of the internal actions that are required to support the skeletal motor movement.

计划的第一个动作是协调心脏和肺部的动作以及支持骨骼运动所需的所有内部动作。

So your brain is categorizing and it's creating a category, and there are options there.

所以你的大脑正在分类并创建一个类别，并且那里有选择。

Those options, the motor plans begin with, should the heart beat faster?

这些选择，即运动计划，首先是心跳应该更快吗？

Should it beat slower?

应该打得慢一点吗？

Does blood pressure need to go up?

血压需要升高吗？

Should the blood vessels constrict, or should they dilate?

血管应该收缩还是扩张？

Should the breathing be deeper or more shallow?

呼吸应该更深还是更浅？

Those are the first ...

这些是第一个...

plans that get made, and then milliseconds later, there are the skeletomotor plans.

制定计划，然后几毫秒后，就有骨骼运动计划。

And then your experience of the world derives from those motor plans.

然后你对世界的体验就来自于这些运动计划。

Those visceromotor, that is the plans for the viscera, for the internal organs, and the skeletomotor, so I'm just going to refer to them as motor.

那些内脏运动，即内脏、内脏器官和骨骼运动的计划，所以我将它们称为运动。

Those motor plans actually give rise to your experience of the world.

这些运动计划实际上会产生你对世界的体验。

There's not some state that exists as an emotional state, which then you apply a label to.

不存在某种作为情绪状态存在的状态，然后你可以给它贴上标签。

The label is just a set of features that are useful for generalizing from the past to the present.

标签只是一组有助于概括从过去到现在的特征。

And the bin size or of what a word refers to can change.

垃圾箱的大小或单词所指的内容可能会发生变化。

It's different for different people, and it can change in your lifetime.

这对不同的人来说是不同的，而且在你的一生中也可能会改变。

And you can add new bins.

您还可以添加新的垃圾箱。

So for example, there's a concept, which I probably just butchered, so if you speak Turkish, I'm sorry.

举例来说，有一个概念，我可能刚刚扼杀了它，所以如果你说土耳其语，我很抱歉。

But it has features of it, of loss and people blocking your goals.

但它有它的特点，即损失和人们阻碍你的目标。

So we would say it's anger and sadness together.

所以我们会说这是愤怒和悲伤在一起。

That's .

那是。

When you lose something and you're pissed off about it.

当你失去某样东西并为此感到愤怒时。

But that's a category on its own, right?

但这本身就是一个类别，对吧？

It's just a different way of parsing that really detailed soup.

这只是解析真正详细的汤的不同方式。

And the more words you know, the more words are just useful for pointing to a set of features that are similar to each other.

你知道的单词越多，就越有利于指出一组彼此相似的特征。

So what I mean by that is, if I say to you, "Andrew, I had pizza last night for dinner." Pizza.

所以我的意思是，如果我对你说，“安德鲁，我昨晚吃了披萨当晚餐。”比萨。

Two sounds, two syllables.

两个声音，两个音节。

Those two syllables, they stand in for 50 different sensory and motor features.

这两个音节代表 50 种不同的感觉和运动特征。

Because I don't have to say to you, "I had a food." I didn't have pizza last night, but let's say I did.

因为我不必对你说：“我吃了东西。”我昨晚没有吃披萨，但假设我吃了。

I had a food that was round and flat and had sauce and also cheese, and it had mozzarella cheese and also a little Parmesan cheese, and it had mushrooms on it and a little bit of olive and that's really, really detailed and complicated.

我吃了一种又圆又扁的食物，有酱汁和奶酪，还有马苏里拉奶酪和一点帕尔马干酪，上面有蘑菇和一点橄榄，这真的非常非常详细和复杂。

But instead, I can just say, "I had pizza." Two features, two sounds, two syllables, phonemes.

但相反，我只能说：“我吃了披萨。”两个特征，两个声音，两个音节，音素。

And with those two phonemes, I have just communicated to you.

我刚刚通过这两个音素与你沟通。

In your brain, my brain had 50 features it was representing of details, and now I have just communicated those to you, or some number of them, with two sounds.

在你的大脑中，我的大脑有 50 个代表细节的特征，现在我刚刚用两种声音将这些特征或其中一些特征传达给你。

Very efficient.

非常高效。

Now, of course, you might think that I was from Chicago and had deep dish pizza.

当然，现在你可能会认为我来自芝加哥并且吃的是深盘披萨。

And I'll just resist.

我只会抵抗。

I don't want to offend anybody from Chicago.

我不想冒犯芝加哥的任何人。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It's not pizza.

这不是披萨。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

That's not real pizza.

那不是真正的披萨。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I'll say it.

我会说。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

That's not real pizza.

那不是真正的披萨。

Right.

正确的。

So you could then ask me, "Oh, but you're from Chicago.

所以你可以问我，“哦，但你来自芝加哥。

Is that deep dish pizza?" And then I would say, "No, no, I'm actually from Toronto, which is just like New York, and so no, it was thin crust pizza," which is really the only kind of pizza there is.

那是深盘披萨吗？”然后我会说，“不，不，我实际上来自多伦多，就像纽约一样，所以不，这是薄皮披萨，”这实际上是唯一一种披萨。

Just saying.

只是说。

But my point is that words are just stand-in for these low dimensional features, these sort of gross features that stand in for many, many, many, many little detailed features, and that's how we communicate with each other.

但我的观点是，文字只是这些低维特征的替代品，这些粗略的特征代表了许多、许多、许多、许多的小细节特征，这就是我们彼此交流的方式。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And we are constrained by what we know and our-

我们受到我们所知道的和我们的——

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Yes

是的

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

and what we can say and the extent of our vocabulary.

以及我们能说什么以及我们的词汇量。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

And I'll just say that little babies, three months old, they don't speak yet and they don't understand language, but they can use words to learn abstract categories.

我只想说，三个月大的小婴儿，他们还不会说话，也不懂语言，但他们可以使用单词来学习抽象类别。

So abstract just means that the word refers to many different patterns of sensory motor features.

如此抽象只是意味着这个词指的是许多不同的感觉运动特征模式。

So the word is, or the category, the things that make the instances similar, are a function, or a goal, not like the sensory motor features.

所以这个词，或者类别，使实例相似的东西，是一个功能，或者一个目标，不像感觉运动特征。

So you say to a baby very explicitly, because we're talking about three or four-month-old babies, right?

所以你非常明确地对婴儿说，因为我们谈论的是三四个月大的婴儿，对吧？

Babies can also do this implicitly, too.

婴儿也可以隐式地这样做。

But in experiments, you say to a baby, "Look, sweetie, this is a bling." And you put the bling down, and it makes a beeping noise.

但在实验中，你对婴儿说：“看，亲爱的，这是一件珠宝。”当你放下金光闪闪的东西时，它就会发出嘟嘟的声音。

And then you say, "Now this looks different, feels different, smells different.

然后你说：“现在看起来不一样了，感觉不一样了，闻起来也不一样了。

Look, sweetie, this is a bling." It beeps.

瞧，亲爱的，这真是一件珠宝。”它发出蜂鸣声。

Now you take something else which also is different, and you say, "Look, sweetie, this is a bling." Now the baby expects this to beep.

现在你拿了一些不同的东西，你说：“看，亲爱的，这是一件珠宝。”现在婴儿期望听到蜂鸣声。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

By the way, folks just listening, Lisa just gave three examples.

顺便说一句，各位听着，丽莎刚刚举了三个例子。

First with a pen, then a coffee mug, and then her very own watch.

首先是一支笔，然后是一个咖啡杯，然后是她自己的手表。

Three very distinct objects, but all of which the baby is told make a bling sound, and they will bin those three-

三个截然不同的物体，但婴儿被告知所有这些物体都会发出闪闪发光的声音，他们会把这三个物体扔进垃圾桶——

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

visually distinct objects, functionally distinct objects into one single bin.

将视觉上不同的物体、功能上不同的物体放入一个箱子中。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Because they are sharing a function, which is to beep.

因为它们共享一个功能，就是发出嘟嘟声。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

I think this is so important.

我认为这一点非常重要。

And if I may, I want to ask whether or not we can take this incredible understanding of emotions, because that's really what we're talking about.

如果可以的话，我想问我们是否可以接受这种对情感的令人难以置信的理解，因为这确实是我们正在谈论的内容。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Well, we're really talking about my version of how the brain works and how emotions emerge out of this-

好吧，我们实际上是在谈论我对大脑如何工作以及情绪如何从中产生的版本 -

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right.

对。

Yep

是的

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

...

...

system, basically.

系统，基本上。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And absolutely.

绝对是。

You described it far better than I could.

你描述得比我好得多。

And anchor that to this concept of movement, that the movement is the final common path With the understanding that the movement system, and forgive me, but that we have systems in the brain and body that allow us to move, that's for sure, systems plural, that they run in both directions.

并将其锚定在运动的概念上，运动是最终的共同路径，理解运动系统，请原谅我，但我们的大脑和身体中有系统可以让我们运动，这是肯定的，系统是复数的，它们是双向运行的。

In other words, how we feel, what we feel, our emotions has some bearing on the movements that are more or less likely for us in a given context.

换句话说，我们的感受、我们的感受、我们的情绪对我们在特定环境下或多或少可能发生的运动有一定的影响。

And our movements clearly can also influence the way that we feel internally.

我们的动作显然也会影响我们的内心感受。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Well, if we just look at how things are happening, here's what the anatomy tells us.

好吧，如果我们只看事情是如何发生的，这就是解剖学告诉我们的。

That when the brain makes a guess, that guess starts as a motor plan.

当大脑做出猜测时，这种猜测就会从运动计划开始。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Starts as a visceral motor plan and a skeletal motor plan.

从内脏运动计划和骨骼运动计划开始。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So heart rate changes, breathing changes-

所以心率改变，呼吸改变——

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

And-

还有——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

blood pressure changes-

血压变化——

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

And

并且

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

and potentially skeletal muscle movement.

以及潜在的骨骼肌运动。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Right.

对。

And literal copies, afferent copies of those signals, they propagate to the sensory areas, telling the brain, telling those neurons, "This is the last time we made this in this context when this other stuff just happened," this temporal context.

这些信号的文字副本，传入副本，它们传播到感觉区域，告诉大脑，告诉那些神经元，“这是我们最后一次在这种情况下做出这个，而其他事情刚刚发生，”这种时间背景。

And we made these movements.

我们做出了这些动作。

Here's what we saw next, here's what we felt next, here's what we smelled next.

这是我们接下来看到的，这是我们接下来感受到的，这是我们接下来闻到的。

So-

所以——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

I think of this, the image that pops in my mind, and we should explain to people what efference copy is.

我想到这个，我脑海中浮现出这样的画面，我们应该向人们解释什么是效果文案。

In neuroscience and neuroanatomy, the connection to a structure is called an afferent with an A, and the connections out from a structure is called the efference.

在神经科学和神经解剖学中，与结构的连接称为带有 A 的传入，而从结构发出的连接称为传出。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

No.

不。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But the way I was thinking-

但我的想法是——

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

It doesn't even matter.

这根本不重要。

It's just basically the point here is that in our experience, your brain conjures an experience, okay?

基本上，这里的要点是，根据我们的经验，你的大脑会产生一种体验，好吗？

And that experience is that you feel something first.

这种体验就是你首先感受到某种东西。

You see something, you feel something, you act.

你看到一些东西，你感觉到一些东西，你采取行动。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

That's not what's happening.

事实并非如此。

What's happening is your brain is preparing the action first, and the feeling, and your experience comes from that action preparation.

发生的事情是你的大脑首先准备行动，而感觉和你的经验来自于行动准备。

So it's a copy.

所以它是一个副本。

It's like literally you have axons that are sending motor signals down the brain stem to the spinal cord, and literal copies of those axons, like those axons have collateral branches that just send axons other places.

就像字面意义上的，你有轴突，将运动信号从脑干发送到脊髓，以及这些轴突的字面副本，就像这些轴突有侧支分支，只是将轴突发送到其他地方。

The same signal that is being sent to your spinal cord to move stuff in your body, that same signal is being sent to other neurons in the brain as predictions of the sensations that are going to happen in a second from now, a moment from now, probably faster than a second, but in a couple milliseconds if you move.

同样的信号被发送到你的脊髓以移动你体内的东西，同样的信号也被发送到大脑中的其他神经元，作为对从现在开始的一秒钟、从现在开始的感觉的预测，可能比一秒快，但如果你移动的话，就需要几毫秒。

And so yes, it is the case that what you feel is linked to what you do and what you do is linked to what you feel, but not in this simple mechanistic way that neuroscientists and psychologists have been using forever.

所以，是的，你的感受与你的行为有关，你的行为与你的感受有关，但不是神经科学家和心理学家一直使用的这种简单的机械方式。

It's not like you're probed by a stimulus, you see something, you hear something, and then you process it and evaluate it, and then you react to it.

这并不像你受到刺激的探测，你看到一些东西，你听到一些东西，然后你处理它并评估它，然后你对它做出反应。

No, that's not what's happening.

不，事实并非如此。

What's actually happening under the hood is that based on how things are right now, your brain makes a guess or some guesses, and those guesses start as motor plans, and the consequence of those motor plans are predicted sensations.

实际上发生的事情是，根据现在的情况，你的大脑会做出猜测或一些猜测，这些猜测从运动计划开始，而这些运动计划的结果就是预测的感觉。

And then, of course, sensory signals are coming from the sensory surfaces.

当然，感官信号来自感官表面。

And here's to me the really the most mind-boggling thing about this whole explanation.

对我来说，这就是整个解释中最令人难以置信的事情。

If your sensory neurons in your sensory areas, so they're firing the action potentials, the spiking has changed based on these prepared motor movements.

如果你的感觉神经元在你的感觉区域，那么它们会激发动作电位，那么尖峰就会根据这些准备好的运动动作而改变。

So these are sensory predictions.

所以这些都是感官预测。

And when I give talks and on my website, I have some cool examples of how this works, so you can experience it yourself.

当我进行演讲和在我的网站上时，我有一些很酷的例子来说明它是如何工作的，所以你可以自己体验一下。

You hear things that aren't there.

你听到了不存在的东西。

You feel vibrations in your chest that aren't there because your brain is predicting.

你会感觉到胸部有振动，但实际上并不存在，因为你的大脑正在预测。

It's predicting these sensations.

它正在预测这些感觉。

So let's say the sensations come.

所以我们说感觉来了。

The sensory signals, I should say.

我应该说是感官信号。

Let me say.

让我说一下。

So the sensory signals from the sensory surfaces of the body make it to the brain.

因此，来自身体感觉表面的感觉信号会到达大脑。

If your neurons are already firing in a way to anticipate those signals, those signals just confirm the firing, and then they're done.

如果你的神经元已经以预期这些信号的方式放电，那么这些信号只是确认放电，然后就完成了。

They don't make it any further into the brain.

它们不会进一步进入大脑。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

So when you're predicting well, your experience is constructed completely by your brain.

因此，当你预测得很好时，你的体验完全是由你的大脑构建的。

The signals from the sensory surfaces are there just to confirm or to change the signal.

来自感觉表面的信号只是为了确认或改变信号。

So if there's things you didn't anticipate, then those errors of prediction, those are the signals that are propagated and become compressed and stuff, and we have a special name for that in science.

因此，如果有一些你没有预料到的事情，那么这些预测错误，就是传播并被压缩的信号之类的东西，我们在科学上对此有一个特殊的名称。

We call it learning.

我们称之为学习。

Andy Clark is a philosopher who writes a lot about prediction, predicting brain, and so on, and he talks about normal, everyday experience as being a controlled hallucination.

安迪·克拉克（Andy Clark）是一位哲学家，写了很多关于预测、预测大脑等方面的文章，他将正常的日常经验视为一种受控的幻觉。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I think that's true.

我认为这是真的。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I subscribe to that.

我同意这一点。

It's a fairly adaptive in most circumstances, controlled hallucination, but it has its limitations.

在大多数情况下，它是一种相当适应性的、受控的幻觉，但它也有其局限性。

What you were talking about, if I could be somewhat of a summary neuron, you can tell me if my summary is too coarse is that first of all, that the neural systems and the brain, let's just call it the nervous system because we're talking about brain and body, are incredibly dynamic.

你所说的，如果我可以是一个总结神经元，你可以告诉我我的总结是否太粗略，首先，神经系统和大脑，我们就称之为神经系统，因为我们谈论的是大脑和身体，是非常动态的。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

There's a bunch of inputs.

有一堆输入。

Those inputs are incredibly elaborate.

这些输入非常复杂。

They get summarized.

他们得到了总结。

The summary prepares the body for a certain action, that's a motor commands, a premotor commands, and then some action may or may not be taken, but already the As soon as an action is taken or not taken, the whole state of the neural system is different.

概括地说，身体为某种动作做好准备，即运动命令、前运动命令，然后可能会或可能不会采取某些行动，但一旦采取或不采取行动，神经系统的整个状态就不同了。

It's changed as a consequence of what just happened.

由于刚刚发生的事情，它发生了变化。

Now, of course, when people hear that, and when I hear that, indeed, I feel like, wow, it's a tough system to study because these are dynamical neural systems.

当然，现在，当人们听到这个消息时，当我听到这个消息时，我确实觉得，哇，这是一个很难研究的系统，因为它们是动态神经系统。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Oh, for sure.

哦，当然。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And we have the technology to put people in functional scanners and look at what lights up, so to speak.

可以这么说，我们拥有将人们置于功能扫描仪中并观察亮起的东西的技术。

We have the capacity to ask people how they feel based on questionnaires, but you can imagine that's incredibly crude.

我们有能力根据调查问卷询问人们的感受，但你可以想象这是非常粗糙的。

So then you give them Likert scales of rate from one to 10 how happy or sad you are.

然后你给他们李克特量表，从 1 到 10 来衡量你的快乐或悲伤程度。

And so you're adding some depth and dimensionality to it, but it's incredibly crude.

所以你要为其添加一些深度和维度，但它非常粗糙。

It's nothing like real experience.

这与真实的经历完全不同。

And if somebody's more verbal, less verbal, maybe they somaticize more or less.

如果一个人的语言多一些，语言少一些，也许他们或多或少会躯体化。

An example comes to mind that occasionally you learn from social media, which often I learn from social media, and someone once said, "I don't think in thoughts, I think in feels." And I thought, okay, great.

我想到一个例子，偶尔你会从社交媒体中学习，我也经常从社交媒体中学习，有人曾经说过，“我不以思想思考，我以感觉思考”。我想，好吧，太好了。

You're probably also from Northern California.

您可能也来自北加州。

And then I said, "Wait, Andrew, stop being so judgmental.

然后我说：“等等，安德鲁，别这么武断了。

What do you mean?" And I asked, and they said, "I experience emotions", in their mind, "first as a bodily state, then the label comes much later." That's not how it works for me.

你什么意思？”我问，他们说，“我体验到情绪”，在他们的脑海中，“首先作为一种身体状态，然后标签才出现。”这对我来说不是这样的。

It feels fairly more integrated, brain and body, for me.

对我来说，大脑和身体感觉更加一体化。

But other people started chiming in, "No, I experience emotions clearly as a verbal label." It's all in their head.

但其他人开始插话，“不，我通过言语标签清楚地体验到情绪。”这一切都在他们的脑海里。

And so you start to realize that we might all be encoding the world slightly differently or very differently, and it's changing in time.

所以你开始意识到，我们对世界的编码可能略有不同或非常不同，而且它随着时间的推移而变化。

So then the question becomes, what are the anchor points in terms of our understanding of emotions that we can work with?

那么问题就变成了，我们对情绪的理解的锚点是什么？

And the following questions come to mind.

我想到了以下问题。

Neither you nor I are clinicians as far as I know.

据我所知，你和我都不是临床医生。

I'm certainly not.

我当然不是。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

I was actually trained as a clinician.

我实际上接受过临床医生培训。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Oh, there you go.

哦，就这样吧。

I'm wrong again.

我又错了。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

No, but I haven't practiced in really gazillions of years or so.

不，但我已经有数百万年没有练习了。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Okay.

好的。

Well, you're more than qualified to answer the question I'm about to ask, which is, to me, there is a great conflict of information in the psychology, psychiatry, and let's just call it wellness and mental health space, which is when we are feeling lousy, like not good, let's put valence on it, just lousy, in a state that we're having an emotion that we don't want to have.

好吧，你完全有资格回答我要问的问题，对我来说，心理学、精神病学中存在很大的信息冲突，我们称之为健康和心理健康空间，当我们感觉很糟糕时，比如不好，让我们对它进行评价，只是很糟糕，处于一种我们不想有的情绪状态。

There's an entire category of information that says you need to feel your feelings.

有一大类信息说你需要感受你的感受。

You need to feel your feelings.

你需要感受你的感受。

You need to acknowledge that they're there.

你需要承认他们的存在。

You need to go into the feeling, maybe even full catharsis.

你需要深入感受，甚至是充分的宣泄。

You need to amplify the feelings until they, quote-unquote, "leave your body." After all, Steve Jobs was into scream therapy and it helped him expunge his anger.

你需要放大这种感觉，直到它们“离开你的身体”。毕竟，史蒂夫·乔布斯热衷于尖叫疗法，这帮助他消除了愤怒。

Who knows?

谁知道？

You get these examples.

你得到这些例子。

He's probably the worst example because it seemed like he was angry a lot, from what I hear.

他可能是最糟糕的例子，因为据我所知，他似乎很生气。

But then there's another category of thought which is, no, you need to use your ability to top-down control, inhibition of the cortex on lower structures.

但还有另一类想法，不，你需要利用你自上而下控制的能力，抑制皮层对较低结构的控制。

Again, I'm deliberately using crude language here to say, wait, this is an emotion.

再次，我在这里故意用粗俗的语言说，等等，这是一种情感。

Emotions pass.

情绪会过去。

This is not real.

这不是真的。

This is just a limited set of high dimensionality stuff that's been summarized.

这只是总结的一组有限的高维内容。

And you know what?

你知道吗？

I don't need to feel this way.

我不需要有这样的感觉。

I can make myself feel differently.

我可以让自己有不同的感觉。

Maybe I'll go for a run.

也许我会去跑步。

In fact, I always feel better after I go for a run.

事实上，跑步后我总是感觉好多了。

So even a question as simple as should we feel our feelings or should we not feel our feelings?

因此，即使是一个简单的问题，比如我们应该感受到我们的感受还是不应该感受到我们的感受？

And of course, you would hope that this would be answered appropriately such that people don't go harm other people or themselves.

当然，您希望这个问题能够得到适当的回答，这样人们就不会伤害他人或自己。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Sure.

当然。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But assuming that they're not going to harm other people or themselves verbally or physically, then you really get yourself into a bit of a pickle.

但假设他们不会在言语或身体上伤害他人或自己，那么你真的会让自己陷入困境。

We don't understand what to do with emotions-

我们不明白如何处理情绪-

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

ours or other people's, because clearly we don't understand emotions per se.

我们的或其他人的，因为显然我们不理解情绪本身。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

So I would say, I'm going to answer your question, and then I want to also pick at an assumption because it's come up actually a couple of times, and there's something super important in your descriptions that I just want to pull out for the listeners, because this thing is really important.

所以我想说，我要回答你的问题，然后我也想选择一个假设，因为它实际上已经出现了几次，而且你的描述中有一些非常重要的东西，我只想为听众拿出来，因为这件事真的很重要。

And you're doing it very naturally, but I think some people, it just bears commenting on.

你这样做很自然，但我认为有些人，这只是值得评论。

So let me just deal with the question of should we feel our feelings or use our words?

那么让我来谈谈我们应该感受我们的感受还是使用我们的言语的问题？

We say to little kids, "Use your words.

我们对小孩子说：“用你的话。

Don't throw a tantrum," right?

别发脾气，对吧？”

But then there's also this other feeling, well, oh, just feel, it's important to feel, and you don't want to have it be pent up and this whole-

但还有另一种感觉，嗯，哦，只是感觉，感觉很重要，你不想让它被压抑，而这整个——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Or use your body and-

或者用你的身体-

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

hit a pillow.

撞到枕头。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

There's scream therapy, bite the pillow.

有尖叫疗法，咬枕头。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Scream the pillow, tear the pillow.

尖叫枕头，撕裂枕头。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You can pay $5,000 for a week-

你可以支付 5,000 美元一周-

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

So-

所以——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

of doing this.

这样做的。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Yeah.

是的。

So-

所以——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And they'll tell you you're going to feel better at the end.

他们会告诉你，最后你会感觉好一些。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right?

对吗？

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

So the answer there is it's the wrong question.

所以答案是这是一个错误的问题。

Flexibility is important for everything always, right?

灵活性对于一切来说总是很重要，对吧？

So, first of all, you don't have emotions in your body.

所以，首先，你的身体里没有情绪。

Your body doesn't keep the score.

你的身体不会记录分数。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Great book title because it's super catchy.

很棒的书名，因为它非常吸引人。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But with all due respect to, I think, the important work of Van Der Kolk, I think it oversimplified and led people to believe that their back pain was trauma and that all trauma is somaticized.

但我认为，尽管对范德科尔克的重要工作给予应有的尊重，但我认为它过于简单化了，导致人们相信他们的背痛是创伤，所有创伤都是躯体化的。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

But I-

但我——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And it's not.

但事实并非如此。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

No, it's not.

不，不是。

But I would go further and say, first of all, your body doesn't keep the score.

但我想更进一步说，首先，你的身体不会记录分数。

Your brain keeps the score.

你的大脑会记录分数。

Your body is the scorecard.

你的身体就是记分卡。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

That's super important.

这非常重要。

And he has done really important work, but his explanations for why things work is scientifically incorrect.

他做了非常重要的工作，但他对事物运作原理的解释在科学上是不正确的。

It just is, because we don't feel things in our bodies.

确实如此，因为我们的身体感觉不到任何东西。

Everything we feel, we feel in our brains.

我们感受到的一切，都是在我们的大脑中感受到的。

We don't see in our eyes, we see in our brains.

我们不是用眼睛看东西，而是用大脑看东西。

Of course, we need our eyes, but we don't see in our eyes.

当然，我们需要眼睛，但我们的眼睛看不到东西。

Just like if you pinch your hand, take skin and pinch between two fingers, the skin, you don't feel that actually in your hand, you feel it in your brain.

就像如果你捏住你的手，拿起皮肤并捏在两个手指之间，皮肤，你实际上在你的手上感觉不到它，你在你的大脑中感觉到它。

That's the magic of the brain, in a sense.

从某种意义上说，这就是大脑的魔力。

So what I would say is, it depends on the situation and what your goal is.

所以我想说的是，这取决于具体情况和你的目标是什么。

Sometimes it is useful to use your words, and sometimes it is useful to go for a run.

有时用你的言语很有用，有时去跑步很有用。

It just depends on what your goal is.

这仅取决于您的目标是什么。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Well, in both those cases that you gave, both those examples, excuse me, it's a way of shifting off the emotion.

嗯，在你举的这两个例子中，对不起，这都是转移情绪的一种方式。

I guess what I'm asking is-

我想我要问的是——

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Well, sometimes you don't want to shift off the emotion.

好吧，有时你不想转移情绪。

Sometimes the wisest thing to do is live in the emotion.

有时候，最明智的做法就是活在情感中。

That is, sometimes discomfort, sometimes when something feels bad, it doesn't mean something is wrong.

也就是说，有时感到不舒服，有时感觉不好，但这并不意味着出了问题。

It just might mean that you're doing something hard.

这可能只是意味着你正在做一些困难的事情。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Well, earlier, when you were talking about the broad categorization of emotions, I wrote down, simple is good when it feels good.

嗯，早些时候，当你谈论情感的广泛分类时，我写下了，当感觉良好时，简单就是好的。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You're like, "I just feel really great." But then when things feel lousy-

你会说，“我感觉真的很棒。”但当事情感觉糟糕时——

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Well-

嗯-

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

that's where nuance could be beneficial.

这就是细微差别可能有益的地方。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Yeah, absolutely.

是的，绝对是。

Because emotions are recipes for action.

因为情绪是行动的秘诀。

When you go from feeling bad to feeling angry or sad, it's a recipe for action.

当你从感觉糟糕转为感到愤怒或悲伤时，这就是采取行动的秘诀。

And I would also say, and this is an analogy, but I stand by it.

我还想说，这是一个类比，但我坚持这一点。

I had major back surgery a couple of years ago, and I know something about chronic pain.

几年前我做了背部大手术，我对慢性疼痛有所了解。

It's not my area of study, but I know something about it because I've reanalyzed some data sets and I've read a lot.

这不是我的研究领域，但我对此有所了解，因为我重新分析了一些数据集并且阅读了很多内容。

So I'm not an expert, but I have ideas.

所以我不是专家，但我有想法。

And I thought to myself, "Well, I don't want to end up with chronic back pain." So what I did was I made sure, after I got through the first couple of weeks where I really needed oxycodone so that I could walk, I was up and walking the same day I had surgery, if you could call it walking, as sort of a euphemism for hobbling around with a walker.

我心想：“好吧，我不想最终患上慢性背痛。”所以我所做的是，在我度过了最初几周我确实需要羟考酮以便我能够行走的情况后，我在手术当天就能站起来行走，如果你可以称之为行走的话，这是一种带着助行器一瘸一拐地走来走去的委婉说法。

But I made sure that I felt the pain.

但我确信我感受到了痛苦。

That is, I dosed myself with discomfort quite deliberately because I wanted to make sure that, I'm sorry for using Cartesian language, I don't know how else to say this, I wanted my brain to be taking in the prediction error.

也就是说，我故意让自己感到不适，因为我想确保，我很抱歉使用笛卡尔语言，我不知道还能怎么说，我希望我的大脑能够接受预测错误。

I wanted my brain to feel the-- I wanted to focus attention on the changing discomfort over time, because it meant that my body was healing as the discomfort got less, but my brain would never feel that discomfort changing if I took painkillers.

我想让我的大脑感觉到——我想把注意力集中在随着时间的推移而变化的不适上，因为这意味着随着不适的减少，我的身体正在康复，但如果我服用止痛药，我的大脑永远不会感觉到不适的变化。

And because the prediction error, the things that the brain doesn't predict, are teaching signals.

因为预测错误，即大脑无法预测的事情，是教学信号。

And I think it's true also in your life.

我认为在你的生活中也是如此。

Sometimes you want to feel it because you want to feel the discomfort because it's instructive about something, and sometimes it's not.

有时你想要感受它，因为你想要感受不适，因为它对某些事情有启发性，但有时却不是。

And maybe that's not really an answer, but the only way that you can figure that out for yourself is to do it sometimes.

也许这并不是一个真正的答案，但你自己解决这个问题的唯一方法就是有时这样做。

If you're always getting rid of discomfort, you never know when it's useful, and it is useful sometimes.

如果你总是摆脱不适，你永远不知道它什么时候有用，而且有时是有用的。

But now I want to get to this point that I was making before.

但现在我想谈谈我之前说过的这一点。

We are talking about feeling and emotion like they're interchangeable, and they're not.

我们谈论感觉和情绪，好像它们是可以互换的，但其实它们不是。

Right?

正确的？

So here's how I would say it.

我是这么说的。

Your brain is always regulating your body 24/7, and your body is always sending sensory signals back to the brain about the sensory state of the body.

你的大脑总是24/7地调节你的身体，你的身体也总是向大脑发送关于身体感觉状态的感觉信号。

And our nervous systems aren't wired for us to experience those sensory changes that are happening in the body in any degree of detail.

我们的神经系统无法让我们以任何程度的细节体验身体中发生的感官变化。

We're just not, and it's a good thing.

我们只是没有，这是一件好事。

Like right now, as we talk here, our hearts are beating, and our pancreas is squishing stuff out, liver is filtering, and oxygen concentrations are changing.

就像现在，当我们在这里说话时，我们的心脏在跳动，我们的胰腺在挤压东西，肝脏在过滤，氧气浓度在变化。

There's a whole drama going on inside each of us and our listeners, and we're largely not aware, and I hope our listeners aren't aware, because if they were, they would not be listening to anything we were saying.

我们每个人和我们的听众内心都在上演着一出戏剧，我们基本上没有意识到，我希望我们的听众也没有意识到，因为如果他们意识到了，他们就不会听我们所说的任何事情。

They'd be completely enraptured or in discomfort at what's going on inside them.

他们会对自己内心发生的事情感到完全欣喜若狂或感到不安。

Instead, the brain creates a low-dimensional summary, this gross kind of barometer, which is feeling, affective feeling, we call it, or you could call it mood, but scientists call it affect with an A, feeling pleasant, feeling unpleasant, feeling worked up, feeling calm, feeling comfortable, feeling uncomfortable.

相反，大脑会创建一个低维度的总结，这种粗略的晴雨表，就是感觉，情感感觉，我们称之为情绪，或者你可以称之为情绪，但科学家将其称为A的影响，感觉愉快，感觉不愉快，感觉兴奋，感觉平静，感觉舒适，感觉不舒服。

It's kind of a general barometer of the state of the body, and it's not emotion.

它是身体状态的一般晴雨表，而不是情绪。

Those feelings, those features of feeling are features of consciousness because your brain is always regulating your body.

那些感觉，那些感觉的特征是意识的特征，因为你的大脑总是在调节你的身体。

Your body's always sending signals back to the brain.

你的身体总是向大脑发送信号。

The brain is always representing them in this low-dimensional way.

大脑总是以这种低维度的方式来表示它们。

Whether you're paying attention or not, whether the brain is focusing, it's applying attention to those neurons or not, those signals are there.

无论你是否集中注意力，无论大脑是否集中注意力，是否将注意力集中在那些神经元上，这些信号都在那里。

And even when we're not emotional.

即使我们没有感情。

If you're driving on the highway and somebody cuts you off and you think, "What an asshole," the assholeness of that person, that intensity of that negative affect is you experience it as a property of that person, but really it's coming from you.

如果你在高速公路上开车，有人拦住你，你会想，“真是个混蛋”，那个人的混蛋，这种负面情绪的强度是你将它体验为那个人的财产，但实际上它来自你。

It's not a property of that person.

这不是那个人的财产。

That's a feature of your experience in that moment.

这是你在那一刻经历的一个特点。

And affect is always there.

并且影响始终存在。

Sometimes it's in the foreground, sometimes it's in the background, but it's always there.

有时它在前台，有时在后台，但它始终存在。

And it's a summary of physical things, which is why it helps to, if you take ibuprofen or Tylenol, studies show it reduces negative feeling.

这是对身体事物的总结，这就是为什么它会有所帮助，如果您服用布洛芬或泰诺，研究表明它可以减少负面情绪。

If you go for a run, if you go for a walk, if you shift your attention to the outside world Then the features of experience that are derived from the inside world diminish.

如果你去跑步，如果你去散步，如果你将注意力转移到外部世界，那么源自内部世界的体验特征就会减少。

That's why going for a run helps, or going for a walk helps, or getting sleep helps, right?

这就是为什么跑步有帮助，或者散步有帮助，或者睡眠有帮助，对吗？

These are all things where you're changing the state of your body, and so the sensory state of your body is changing, and so your affect changes.

这些都是你改变身体状态的事情，因此你身体的感觉状态正在改变，因此你的情感也在改变。

But emotions are the story that the brain tells about what caused the sensory signals that affect derives from.

但情绪是大脑讲述的故事，讲述产生影响的感官信号的来源。

So what caused those changes?

那么是什么导致了这些变化呢？

What do I need to do about those changes?

对于这些变化我需要做什么？

It's a much bigger event than just these features of experience, features of consciousness, which are always there.

这是一个比这些始终存在的经验特征、意识特征更大的事件。

They're always there.

他们总是在那里。

And in fact, in our culture, we pathologize people when they just experience their bodies as physical sensations and not as emotions.

事实上，在我们的文化中，当人们只是将自己的身体体验为身体感觉而不是情感时，我们就会将他们病态化。

We say, "Oh, that person is somaticizing or somatizing.

我们说，“哦，那个人正在躯体化或躯体化。

They should be experiencing emotion, but really they're just experiencing a stomach ache, and that's bad." But that's actually a judgment call that is probably sometimes wrong.

他们应该感到情绪激动，但实际上他们只是感到胃痛，这很糟糕。”但这实际上是一种判断，有时可能是错误的。

Sometimes it's probably better to experience a stomach ache.

有时，经历一下胃痛可能会更好。

Sometimes it's more productive.

有时它更有效率。

Part of being emotionally intelligent is knowing when not to construct an emotion.

情商高的一部分是知道什么时候不应该产生情绪。

Right before the COVID pandemic was announced officially, I was in New Zealand giving talks, and my daughter, who was in college at that time, was flying literally, I think less than a week before the pandemic was announced.

就在正式宣布新冠病毒大流行之前，我在新西兰发表演讲，我当时正在上大学的女儿实际上正在飞行，我想距离宣布大流行还不到一周。

She got on a plane and she flew to New Zealand to meet me because it was spring break, and I always would bring her with me on spring break.

她坐上了飞机，飞到新西兰来见我，因为当时是春假，春假时我总是带她一起去。

And I remember really vividly, I was in New Zealand.

我清楚地记得，我当时在新西兰。

There was only one case of COVID in New Zealand at that point, and I got on the phone to my husband and I said, "I'm experiencing a very high level of arousal, and it's very, very unpleasant." Now, my husband knows me very well, and he said, "Yeah, there's a lot of uncertainty." And I said, "I know." Now, he didn't say to me, "Well, you're anxious and you just don't really know it." Because I wasn't anxious.

当时新西兰只有一例新冠肺炎病例，我打电话给我丈夫说：“我的性兴奋程度非常高，这非常非常不愉快。”现在，我的丈夫非常了解我，他说：“是的，有很多不确定性。”我说：“我知道。”现在，他没有对我说：“好吧，你很焦虑，但你只是不知道而已。”因为我并不着急。

I was feeling uncertain, and as you know, or maybe people know, that when there's a lot of uncertainty, there's also a lot of arousal because the brain is attempting to learn, and the neuromodulators that are important for learning new things happen to also cause a subjective sense of arousal.

我感到不确定，正如你所知，或者也许人们知道，当存在很多不确定性时，也会有很多兴奋，因为大脑正在尝试学习，而对于学习新事物很重要的神经调节剂碰巧也会引起主观的兴奋感。

And they actually also modulate your autonomic nervous system, so your heart can beat faster and whatever.

它们实际上还能调节你的自主神经系统，让你的心脏跳得更快等等。

And our go-to explanation for what that is, is to experience that arousal as anxiety.

我们对这是什么的首选解释是将这种唤醒体验为焦虑。

But I was uncertain.

但我不确定。

And remember that how your brain, the story it's telling itself, the category it's making, is a plan for action.

请记住，你的大脑、它所讲述的故事、它所创建的类别，都是一个行动计划。

Well, what do you do in anxiety and fear?

那么，当你感到焦虑和恐惧时，你会做什么呢？

You freeze or you run away.

你要么被冻住，要么逃跑。

What do you do in uncertainty?

在不确定的情况下你会做什么？

You forage for information.

你寻找信息。

You tolerate the discomfort, and you forage for information, which is what I was doing when I called and said, "What should we do?

你忍受这种不适，然后寻找信息，这就是我打电话说“我们应该做什么？

Should I meet her at the airport and turn around and come back, or should we have a vacation?

我应该去机场接她然后转身回来，还是我们应该去度假？

I don't really know." And what I ended up doing was foraging for information for another couple of days, and then made a split-second decision in the air when we were flying from one island to the other, and I just rerouted us and we went home.

我真的不知道。”我最终所做的就是又花了几天时间寻找信息，然后当我们从一个岛屿飞往另一个岛屿时，我在空中瞬间做出了决定，然后我重新调整了航线，然后我们就回家了。

And then the borders closed two days later.

两天后边界关闭。

But my point is that this is not just psychological mumbo jumbo.

但我的观点是，这不仅仅是心理上的胡言乱语。

You can train yourself to experience your heart pounding in your chest as determination.

你可以训练自己将心脏在胸腔中的跳动视为决心。

This is all in "How Emotions Are Made," these examples, but they're true.

这一切都在“情绪是如何产生的”这些例子中，但它们是真实的。

This book I wrote a couple of years ago.

这本书是我几年前写的。

When my daughter was 12 years old, she was testing for a black belt in karate.

我女儿 12 岁时，正在测试空手道黑带。

She was five feet tall, not even, and she was testing against these massively large adolescent boys, okay, who were a foot taller than her.

她有五英尺高，甚至不到，她正在与这些巨大的青春期男孩进行测试，好吧，他们比她高一英尺。

And her sensei, who was a 10th-degree black belt, didn't say to her, "Don't be afraid." He said, "Get your butterflies flying in formation." And I was enraptured.

而她的老师，一位黑带十段，并没有对她说，“不要害怕。”他说：“让你的蝴蝶排成队形飞翔。”我很欣喜若狂。

I was like, "Oh, my God, this guy is totally brilliant." That is the best meaning to give to arousal that changes the meaning of it.

我当时想，“哦，天哪，这家伙太聪明了。”这是赋予改变其含义的唤醒的最佳含义。

What you do when you create an emotion is you're giving meaning to those affective feelings, and you have more control than you might think in how you do that.

当你创造一种情绪时，你所做的就是赋予这些情感以意义，并且你对如何做到这一点拥有比你想象的更多的控制权。

You can do it by changing the physical state that gives rise to those feelings, but you can also change it by learning more how to make more categories and how to make them more fluidly, so that you do something different.

你可以通过改变产生这些感觉的身体状态来做到这一点，但你也可以通过更多地学习如何创建更多类别以及如何使它们更加流畅来改变它，这样你就可以做一些不同的事情。

And it's not that things will necessarily feel any more unpleasant or any more pleasant.

这并不是说事情一定会让人感觉更不愉快或更愉快。

It's that the feeling becomes a source of wisdom.

就是感觉成为智慧的源泉。

It's a cue to do something different.

这是做一些不同的事情的暗示。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

This is a case where I absolutely believe that knowledge about how emotions and affect and states of the brain and body work, which is what you're beautifully describing for people today, is extremely useful in and of itself.

在这种情况下，我绝对相信，关于大脑和身体的情绪、影响和状态如何工作的知识，这就是您今天为人们所做的精彩描述，其本身是非常有用的。

And frankly, it's a refreshing and welcome departure from a lot of the conversations that we normally have on this podcast where we talk a lot about protocols, we talk about tools, things that people can do, ways they can implement the knowledge.

坦率地说，与我们通常在这个播客上进行的许多对话相比，这是一个令人耳目一新且受欢迎的转变，我们在播客中谈论了很多协议、工具、人们可以做的事情以及他们实现知识的方式。

And here, this is certainly one of those cases as well, but it's a beautiful one and a very important one where the knowledge itself, just the knowledge of additional words for different states.

在这里，这当然也是其中一种情况，但这是一个美丽的情况，也是一个非常重要的情况，其中知识本身，只是不同状态的附加单词的知识。

I love the example of putting butterflies into formation because inherent to that is that you're not trying to get rid of the butterflies.

我喜欢将蝴蝶排成队形的例子，因为其本质是你不会试图摆脱蝴蝶。

Quite the opposite.

恰恰相反。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You're deploying them in certain ways.

您正在以某些方式部署它们。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And there's an action step and a psychological step there, of course, that's required, but that it isn't view morning sunlight for an average of 10 minutes to set your circadian rhythm, which is something that I say over and over again.

当然，这其中有一个行动步骤和一个心理步骤，这是必需的，但不是平均 10 分钟看早晨的阳光来设定你的昼夜节律，这是我一遍又一遍地说的。

I'll go into the grave saying that.

我会走进坟墓说这句话。

They'll probably put a window over my grave so sunlight can get in at this point, which would be fine with me.

他们可能会在我的坟墓上加一扇窗户，这样阳光就可以进入，这对我来说没问题。

But in any case, knowledge is power is something that we hear, but it's not always true.

但无论如何，“知识就是力量”是我们常听到的一句话，但它并不总是正确的。

Often it's knowledge is power, but you need to do X, Y, and Z in a certain order.

通常知识就是力量，但你需要按一定的顺序做 X、Y 和 Z。

But here, what you've provided, and you're continuing to provide, is knowledge that people can use that real estate within their brain, I'm deliberately not giving it a name because it's distributed real estate, that allows them to take an unpleasant feeling and work with it.

但在这里，你所提供的，以及你将继续提供的，是人们可以使用他们大脑中的不动产的知识，我故意不给它命名，因为它是分布式的不动产，这让他们能够接受不愉快的感觉并与之合作。

That it has more dimensionality than we probably realize.

它的维度比我们可能意识到的还要多。

That's becoming clear to me, that rarely, if ever, is there less dimensionality.

我越来越清楚，维度很少（如果有的话）会更少。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

You can always give it more dimensionality by just shifting your attention.

你总是可以通过转移注意力来赋予它更多的维度。

And you can practice this, really.

你真的可以练习这个。

There's a story that I tell about the brief moment when I tried to learn how to paint.

我讲过一个故事，是关于我尝试学习绘画时的短暂时刻。

And so there's an object, like a cup, and you have this three-dimensional object, and you want to render it on a two-dimensional canvas.

所以有一个物体，比如杯子，你有这个三维物体，你想在二维画布上渲染它。

So you could just try to draw the cup, and then what you get is a pretty shitty looking cup.

所以你可以尝试画出杯子，然后你得到的是一个看起来很糟糕的杯子。

But what a realist painter will teach you to do is to take the cup and to break it apart into pieces of light, and then what you try to paint are the pieces of light.

但写实画家会教你把杯子拆成光的碎片，然后你画的就是光的碎片。

So first what you're doing is you're taking this very low-dimensional coarse object called a cup, and you're breaking it into tiny little pieces of light.

所以首先你要做的就是拿一个非常低维的粗糙物体，称为杯子，然后将它分解成微小的光碎片。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Which is what the visual system does.

这就是视觉系统的作用。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Which is what the visual system does.

这就是视觉系统的作用。

And so what you're doing is you're categorizing it differently in order to emphasize the features that are more high-dimensional, that are in there.

所以你所做的就是对它进行不同的分类，以强调其中更高维的特征。

They're in there, in the brain.

它们就在那里，在大脑里。

But what you're doing essentially is your brain is applying attention to basically focus more on those details.

但你所做的本质上是你的大脑正在将注意力更多地集中在这些细节上。

And then you transfer the details onto the two-dimensional canvas.

然后将细节转移到二维画布上。

And what you get is a pretty decent-looking three-dimensional cup on a two-dimensional canvas.

你得到的是一个在二维画布上看起来相当不错的三维杯子。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Amazing.

太棒了。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Unless you're me, and then it still looks shitty.

除非你是我，否则看起来还是很糟糕。

And so maybe I'll take it up again sometime in the future.

所以也许我会在未来的某个时候再次拿起它。

But my point is that you can do that with your own sensory condition of your body.

但我的观点是，你可以根据自己身体的感觉状况来做到这一点。

In emotion, you can deliberately focus on what your heart is doing to the best of your ability that you can sense it.

在情感上，你可以刻意地专注于你的内心在做什么，尽你所能感觉到它。

Or you can deliberately focus on your breathing, or you could deliberately focus on what your muscles or how tense they feel.

或者你可以刻意地关注你的呼吸，或者你可以刻意地关注你的肌肉或它们的紧张程度。

You can change the dimensionality of your experience by the shifting of your attention.

您可以通过转移注意力来改变体验的维度。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I love it.

我喜欢它。

And forgive me for giving another example, but I think it's one that will resonate with both of us and hopefully with our listeners as well, which is the great Oliver Sacks, neurologist and author, talked about and wrote about, he'd worked with these patients that either had locked-in syndrome or severe autism or severe Tourette's or Parkinson's.

请原谅我再举一个例子，但我认为这会引起我们双方的共鸣，也希望能引起我们的听众的共鸣，这是伟大的奥利弗·萨克斯，神经学家和作家，他谈论和写到，他曾与这些患有闭锁综合症或严重自闭症或严重图雷特氏症或帕金森氏症的患者一起工作。

And most people, even clinicians who specialize in those areas, would look to those people and say that they're living in a diminished world.

大多数人，甚至是专门研究这些领域的临床医生，都会向这些人表示，他们生活在一个日益缩小的世界中。

They lack capacities that other people have, and it's all about the absence of certain abilities.

他们缺乏其他人所拥有的能力，而这都是因为缺乏某些能力。

And then what he did eventually was incredible.

然后他最终所做的事情令人难以置信。

He loved animals.

他热爱动物。

So he would spend time thinking about what it would be like, for instance, to be a bat hanging in the corner of a room and experience the room not through vision, but mainly through echolocation.

因此，他会花时间思考，例如，成为一只挂在房间角落的蝙蝠，不是通过视觉，而是主要通过回声定位来体验房间，会是什么样子。

And he would spend a lot of time thinking about that.

他会花很多时间思考这个问题。

He also did a lot of drugs at one point in his career and then stopped because they were very destructive drugs, not just psychedelics, but also methamphetamines.

在他的职业生涯中，他也曾经吸过很多毒品，然后就停止了，因为它们是破坏性很大的毒品，不仅是迷幻药，还有甲基苯丙胺。

So yes, he has that.

所以是的，他有这个。

But he eventually changed his practice to trying to experience human emotion, but first think about animal sensory experience.

但他最终改变了做法，尝试体验人类情感，但首先思考动物的感官体验。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And he would do that for lots of different types of animals, octopuses and bats and all these different things.

他会对许多不同类型的动物、章鱼和蝙蝠以及所有这些不同的东西这样做。

And then, in his words, it allowed him to then interact with patients in a way where he could feel, maybe even empathize a little bit with how they experienced life.

然后，用他的话说，这让他能够以一种他能感受到的方式与患者互动，甚至可能对他们的生活经历有一点同情。

And then he would write books about it in a way, and here I'm borrowing someone else's words, that storied these people-

然后他会以某种方式写这方面的书，在这里我借用别人的话，讲述了这些人——

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

into almost greater, larger than life characters.

塑造成几乎比生活更伟大的人物。

And now, of course, he wasn't trying to detract from their suffering.

当然，现在他并不是想减轻他们的痛苦。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But he was trying to give people an understanding of what that suffering was like through their actual experience.

但他试图让人们通过实际经历了解痛苦是什么样的。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And he did, in my opinion and the opinion of many other people, a masterful job in doing that.

在我和许多其他人看来，他在这方面做得非常出色。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Yeah, a masterful job.

是的，一项出色的工作。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But it came through much in the same way that your art teacher said ...

但它的发生方式与你的艺术老师所说的非常相似......

pay attention to the way the changes in light across the object, as opposed to trying to draw the object themselves.

注意物体上光线变化的方式，而不是试图绘制物体本身。

So the takeaway here that I think we're arriving at, that you've provided, is that if we add dimensionality to our description of or our experience of the sensory inputs, and there's a ton of it to reach to-

因此，我认为我们要得出的结论是，如果我们为我们对感官输入的描述或体验添加维度，那么我们将获得大量的维度——

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

and we maybe even come up with some new internal labels or language-based labels, that we can experience the world in much richer and much more adaptive ways.

我们甚至可能想出一些新的内部标签或基于语言的标签，我们可以以更丰富、更具适应性的方式体验世界。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Absolutely.

绝对的。

And I love your stories, and I love this story in particular about Oliver Sacks because it resonates with my experience when I was reading Ed Yong's new book.

我喜欢你的故事，我特别喜欢这个关于奥利弗·萨克斯的故事，因为它与我阅读埃德·杨的新书时的经历产生了共鸣。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Oh.

哦。

At first, he wrote "We Contain Multitudes," which I think won a Pulitzer, and then, what is the recent one?

一开始，他写了《我们包容大众》，我认为这本书赢得了普利策奖，然后，最近的一篇是什么？

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Right, with the animals.

对了，和动物一起。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

"An Immense World."

“广阔的世界。”

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

"An Immense World." And what I was thinking was, first of all, it's a masterful book.

“广阔的世界。”我的想法是，首先，这是一本精彩的书。

I wish I had written that book.

我希望那本书是我写的。

I wrote him a fan letter.

我给他写了一封粉丝信。

I was like, "This is such an amazing book."

我当时想，“这真是一本很棒的书。”

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It's an amazing book.

这是一本很棒的书。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

But because he helps you experience...

但因为他帮助你体验...

So what I want to say is this, that there are all these animals that have different sensory surfaces than we do, and they can detect signals in the world that are not relevant to us because we don't have sensory surfaces for them.

所以我想说的是，所有这些动物都有与我们不同的感官表面，它们可以检测到世界上与我们无关的信号，因为我们没有它们的感官表面。

And it reminds you, first of all, that what you experience as reality is really not in the world alone, and it's not in your head alone.

首先，它提醒你，你所体验到的现实并不只存在于世界上，也不只存在于你的头脑中。

It is in the transaction between the two.

是在两人的交易中。

The neurons in your brain and in your nervous system are also part of the reality.

你大脑和神经系统中的神经元也是现实的一部分。

And so reality is the transaction.

所以现实就是交易。

Reality are the features that are the transaction between signals in the world and signals in your brain.

现实是世界信号与大脑信号之间交换的特征。

And the parts of the world that some other animals experience that we will never experience, they're not really part of our reality because they don't interact with anything that we have.

其他一些动物所经历的世界部分是我们永远不会经历的，它们并不是我们现实的一部分，因为它们不与我们拥有的任何东西相互作用。

But for those animals, it's part of their niche.

但对于这些动物来说，这是它们利基市场的一部分。

Niche is just the word for the parts of the world that matter to you, basically.

基本上，利基这个词指的是世界上对你来说重要的部分。

And I was thinking that if people read this book, maybe it will help them have empathy for other people who don't have minds like theirs and who don't experience the world in the way that they do.

我在想，如果人们读了这本书，也许会帮助他们对那些没有像他们这样的思想、不以他们的方式体验世界的人产生同理心。

Your description of what Oliver Sacks, his actions were and his goals, it did occur to me that this book by Ed Yong would be a great tool for helping people to understand that the way that they experience the world, it might be different than how other people experience the world.

你对奥利弗·萨克斯的描述，他的行为和目标，我确实想到埃德·勇的这本书将成为一个很好的工具，帮助人们理解他们体验世界的方式可能与其他人体验世界的方式不同。

And even a little bit of a window on that, it would be a good thing.

即使有一点点的窗口，这也是一件好事。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So I'd like to ask you more about this word affect.

所以我想问你更多关于“影响”这个词的问题。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Mm.

嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And then I'd like to discuss how things that we do or don't do might be useful for putting us in broad categories of affect so that we might experience particular arrays of emotions.

然后我想讨论我们做或不做的事情如何有助于将我们置于广泛的情感类别中，以便我们可能体验到特定的情绪阵列。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So this is my attempt to understand affect in an effort to think about some actionable items.

因此，这是我尝试理解情感，以思考一些可操作的项目。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Absolutely.

绝对的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I love the word affect the way you described it, as we're setting up a potential or a series of potentialities for different emotions to occur.

我喜欢你描述的“影响”这个词，因为我们正在为不同情绪的发生建立一个或一系列的可能性。

I make it a point to get sunlight in my eyes in the morning to try and wake up my brain and body, because indeed it does that.

我会在早上让阳光照进我的眼睛，尝试唤醒我的大脑和身体，因为它确实可以做到这一点。

Broadly speaking, I make an effort to get good sleep at night because that makes everything better.

一般来说，我会努力在晚上获得良好的睡眠，因为这会让一切变得更好。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Absolutely.

绝对的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And when I'm not sleeping well or enough, it makes everything worse.

当我睡眠不好或睡眠不足时，一切都会变得更糟。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

This is non-clinical, non-nuanced language.

这是非临床、不细致的语言。

But I think most people, when they hear affect and they think about the examples I just gave, kind of understand like, yeah, when a kid is tired, a young kid, they get cranky.

但我认为大多数人，当他们听到情感并想到我刚才举的例子时，都会明白，是的，当一个孩子累了，一个年幼的孩子，他们会变得暴躁。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

When we're sleep-deprived, we get cranky.

当我们睡眠不足时，我们就会变得暴躁。

Indeed, there are times when I'm sleep-deprived and little things grate on me.

确实，有时我会睡眠不足，并且会因为一些小事而烦恼。

They're like a splinter, just feels super annoying-

它们就像一个碎片，只是感觉超级烦人-

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

and maybe even painful.

甚至可能是痛苦的。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But when I'm well-rested, things are going better-

但当我休息良好时，事情就会变得更好-

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

it's not that bad.

没那么糟糕。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So tell us more about affect, because I think it's a really important anchor point-

所以告诉我们更多关于情感的信息，因为我认为这是一个非常重要的锚点 -

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

for us to understand emotions in ourselves and other people.

让我们了解自己和他人的情绪。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Neuroscientists think about the sensory systems for touch and proprioception, which we call somatosensation, as being in the service of skeletal motor movements.

神经科学家认为触觉和本体感觉的感觉系统（我们称之为躯体感觉）是为骨骼运动服务的。

Really, our sense of touch, and even vision actually, also works this way.

确实，我们的触觉，甚至视觉实际上也是这样工作的。

And actually audition does, too.

事实上试镜也是如此。

These senses actually serve in the brain's ability to control the movements of the body.

这些感觉实际上有助于大脑控制身体运动的能力。

And the same thing is true for regulating the systems of the body.

对于调节身体系统也是如此。

So brains, one of their fundamental jobs are to coordinate and regulate the systems inside your body, your heart, your lungs, your gut, all the moving parts.

因此，大脑的基本工作之一就是协调和调节你体内的系统，你的心脏、你的肺、你的肠道以及所有运动部件。

And the information, the sensory signals that those organs and tissues and so on send back to the brain, as I said before, those sensory signals are important to the brain's ability to regulate the body, but we don't feel them directly.

而这些器官、组织等传回大脑的信息、感觉信号，就像我之前说过的，这些感觉信号对于大脑调节身体的能力很重要，但我们并不能直接感受到它们。

We usually experience them as affective feelings, these very simple physical sorts of feelings.

我们通常将它们体验为情感感受，这些非常简单的身体感受。

And then we elaborate them in various ways.

然后我们以各种方式详细阐述它们。

When they get very intense, those are the moments when the brain creates emotion out of them.

当它们变得非常强烈时，大脑就会从中产生情绪。

So the brain's regulation of the body, the predictive regulation of the body, the technical term is allostasis.

所以大脑对身体的调节，对身体的预测性调节，专业术语是动态平衡。

But when I'm explaining this to the public, I use a metaphor.

但当我向公众解释这一点时，我使用了一个比喻。

And all metaphors are wrong, but some metaphors are less wrong and useful.

所有的比喻都是错误的，但有些比喻的错误较小，而且有用。

So the metaphor that I use is your brain is running a budget for your body, and it's not budgeting money, it's budgeting glucose and salt and oxygen and water and all the nutrients that you need to stay alive and well.

所以我用的比喻是，你的大脑正在为你的身体做预算，它不是在预算金钱，而是在预算葡萄糖、盐、氧气、水以及你保持健康所需的所有营养物质。

And so you can think about withdrawals from that budget, like burning glucose or using up oxygen.

因此，您可以考虑从该预算中提取资金，例如燃烧葡萄糖或耗尽氧气。

You can think about deposits like sleeping and eating.

你可以考虑像睡觉和吃饭这样的存款。

You can think about savings.

你可以考虑一下储蓄。

So when you're with a friend who you trust and everything you do actually is just slightly less metabolically expensive, right?

所以，当你和一个你信任的朋友在一起时，你实际上所做的一切都只是稍微降低了新陈代谢的成本，对吗？

And you can also think about taxes.

您还可以考虑税收。

Like if you are socially stressed within two hours of eating a meal, that same meal will cost you the equivalent of 104 more calories in the inefficiency that you will metabolize it because of that stress.

就像如果你在吃饭后两小时内感受到社交压力一样，同样的一顿饭会让你多消耗 104 卡路里的热量，因为压力导致你代谢效率低下。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Meaning you'll burn more energy.

这意味着你会燃烧更多的能量。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

You'll be more inefficient in metabolizing the food, so it's as if you had eaten 104 more calories.

你的食物代谢效率会更低，就好像你多吃了 104 卡路里一样。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Oh, so I had it exactly backwards.

哦，所以我完全搞反了。

Yeah.

是的。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

And so over the course of a year, that's 11 pounds.

一年下来，体重增加了 11 磅。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So when we say that people are taxing on us-

所以当我们说人们正在向我们征税时——

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Yeah, it's literally true

是的，这确实是真的

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

their language works.

他们的语言有效。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Their language.

他们的语言。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Their language works.

他们的语言有效。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

So the way I describe it is that you can think about affect as a quick and dirty summary of the state of your body budget.

所以我描述它的方式是，你可以将影响视为对你的身体预算状态的快速而粗略的总结。

If things are going reasonably well, then you'll feel okay.

如果事情进展得相当顺利，那么你就会感觉很好。

You might even feel pleasant.

你甚至可能会感到愉快。

If you're running a deficit in your body budget, then you're going to feel fatigued or distressed.

如果你的身体预算出现赤字，那么你就会感到疲劳或痛苦。

And that doesn't mean something is necessarily wrong.

这并不意味着某些事情一定是错误的。

Like for example, when you exercise, you get to a certain point where you've reached your ventilatory load.

例如，当您锻炼时，您会达到达到通气负荷的某个点。

Usually, it's like 20 minutes in or 10 minutes in or whatever, depending on how hard you're working, and you start to feel unpleasant and fatigued.

通常，大约是 20 分钟或 10 分钟或其他什么，这取决于你工作的努力程度，你就会开始感到不愉快和疲劳。

But that doesn't mean that something's wrong.

但这并不意味着有什么问题。

That just means that you're working really hard, and you have to push through it, and then drink water and you eat afterwards and replenish, and then you're fine, right?

那就是说你工作很辛苦，你必须坚持下去，然后喝水，然后吃东西，补充能量，然后就没事了，对吧？

In fact, you're better.

事实上，你更好。

It's a way of building a better, stronger future you.

这是为你打造一个更好、更强大的未来的一种方式。

So affect is basically when you're feeling really worked up, it probably means that something's uncertain somewhere.

所以情感基本上是指当你感到非常兴奋时，这可能意味着某处有不确定的事情。

So I just think about these as quick and dirty ways of thinking about what your affect means.

所以我只是认为这些是思考你的情感意味着什么的快速而肮脏的方式。

And then oftentimes, as we've said before, emotion regulation, that is controlling emotion, really actually is not so much about changing the meaning of affect, it's changing the affect.

正如我们之前所说，情绪调节，即控制情绪，实际上并不是改变情感的含义，而是改变情感。

So it's useful to understand that affect is tied to the state of your body, or actually what it's tied to is your brain's beliefs about the state of your body.

因此，了解情感与你的身体状态有关，或者实际上它与你的大脑对身体状态的信念有关，是很有用的。

Your brain is modeling the state of the body, and that's interoception.

你的大脑正在模拟身体的状态，这就是内感受。

That's the technical word.

这是技术用语。

Interoception is not your awareness of your body, it's your brain's modeling of your body, what your brain believes to be true about the metabolic state of your body.

内感受不是你对身体的意识，而是你的大脑对你的身体的建模，你的大脑相信你的身体的代谢状态是正确的。

And that's how I think about affect.

这就是我对影响的看法。

That's how I think about my own affect.

这就是我对自己的影响的看法。

And my daughter actually, who was depressed for-- So I should say depression is like a bankrupt body budget.

事实上，我的女儿，她因为——所以我应该说抑郁症就像破产的身体预算。

Like you just can't move.

就像你无法动弹一样。

You feel so fatigued that you can't move, and you're very distressed.

你感觉累得动弹不得，心里很苦恼。

It's like bankruptcy.

这就像破产一样。

Depression is a metabolic illness, and if you look at the symptoms of depression, they really are about having metabolic deficits, basically.

抑郁症是一种代谢疾病，如果你观察抑郁症的症状，基本上它们确实与代谢缺陷有关。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And it's interesting that one of the hallmark features of depression, subjectively speaking, is a lack of positive anticipation about the future.

有趣的是，从主观上来说，抑郁症的标志特征之一是对未来缺乏积极的预期。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Which makes perfect sense-

这很有道理——

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

from the perspective of a depleted-

从耗尽的角度来看

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

brain body budget.

大脑身体预算。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Yes, exactly.

是的，完全正确。

Think about the fact that prediction error, right?

想想这个事实，预测有误吧？

So if you're feeling unpleasant, you're not going to be anticipating pleasant things, and even if those things that are in the world could give you pleasure, you won't notice them.

因此，如果你感觉不愉快，你就不会期待愉快的事情，即使世界上的那些事情可以给你带来快乐，你也不会注意到它们。

Because learning from prediction error, things that you didn't predict, is expensive, and if you don't have the resources, you're not going to, right?

因为从预测错误和你没有预测到的事情中学习是昂贵的，如果你没有资源，你就不会这样做，对吧？

But anyways, my daughter came up with this after we had this very interesting thing that happened to us on another trip.

但无论如何，我的女儿在我们在另一次旅行中发生了一件非常有趣的事情之后想到了这个。

We were in Sweden because I was giving a keynote at the Karolinska Institute, and I took her to Sweden, and this is when she was recovering from depression.

我们去瑞典是因为我要在卡罗林斯卡学院做主题演讲，我带她去了瑞典，当时她正从抑郁症中恢复过来。

And she is just one of the millions of young adults, adolescents, and young adults who are experiencing depression.

她只是数百万患有抑郁症的年轻人、青少年和年轻人之一。

And we got to Sweden, and she was very, very jet lagged.

我们到了瑞典，她时差反应非常非常严重。

We both were.

我们都是。

It was like one of these like we had to like- Planes, trains, and automobile.

这就像我们必须喜欢的其中一种——飞机、火车和汽车。

It was just getting there.

它刚刚到达那里。

And she woke up the next morning, and she looked horrible.

第二天早上她醒来，看上去很糟糕。

She felt horrible.

她感觉很可怕。

It actually seemed to me like she was about to enter another depressive episode.

事实上，在我看来，她似乎即将进入另一次抑郁期。

And I said to her, I basically got her out of bed, I fed her a meal, I gave her four ibuprofen, and I put her back to sleep.

我对她说，我基本上把她从床上弄起来，给她吃了一顿饭，给了她四片布洛芬，然后让她重新入睡。

And she got up five hours later, and she was absolutely fine.

五小时后她就醒了，一切都很好。

Her mood was fine.

她的心情很好。

Now, I'm not telling you that ibuprofen is an antidepressant that you should take if you're depressed.

现在，我并不是告诉您布洛芬是一种抗抑郁药，如果您患有抑郁症，则应该服用。

But what I'm telling you is that you said something, Andrew, that was so interesting.

但我要告诉你的是，安德鲁，你说了一些非常有趣的话。

In the beginning, you said, "Am I fatigued?

一开始，你说：“我累吗？

Do I have pain somewhere?

我有什么地方痛吗？

Does my body hurt?" Well, right.

我的身体疼吗？”嗯，对。

When basically what she was having was she was fatigued, and she was having what I would call, the technical word is visceral nociception, which means her stomach hurt, everything hurt.

当她基本上感到疲劳时，她正在经历我所说的，专业术语是内脏伤害感受，这意味着她的胃受伤了，一切都受伤了。

And sure, her muscles probably hurt too, but it was really her innards, really, she just was distressed.

当然，她的肌肉可能也受伤了，但那确实是她的内脏，真的，她只是感到痛苦。

And the ibuprofen helped her get back to sleep, and then she slept, and she got up, and she was completely fine.

布洛芬帮助她重新入睡，然后她睡着了，然后她站起来，她就完全好了。

And then we walked around Stockholm for the rest of the day talking about this experience, which for her was like flipping on a light switch.

然后我们在斯德哥尔摩周围散步，谈论这一经历，对她来说，这就像打开电灯开关一样。

"How Emotions Are Made," this book that I referred to, I wrote that book for her.

我提到的《情感是如何产生的》这本书，是我为她写的。

I wrote that book for her, but also for me because it was a way of putting down on paper all the things that I wanted her to know and that I thought other people should know about their kids.

我为她写了这本书，也为我自己写了这本书，因为这是一种将我希望她知道的所有事情以及我认为其他人应该了解他们的孩子的事情写在纸上的一种方式。

And maybe even their kids could read it.

也许甚至他们的孩子也能读懂。

But what she did with that was she came up with a new concept called the emotional flu.

但她所做的是提出了一个新概念，称为情绪流感。

And the emotional flu is when you're having a bad body budgeting day, and you're just like, you didn't get enough sleep maybe, or there's some stress at work or at school that you can't get rid of otherwise.

情绪流感是指当你一天的身体预算很糟糕时，你会想，你可能没有得到足够的睡眠，或者工作或学校有一些你无法摆脱的压力。

My husband likes to say, "Well, other people's opinions of you are just electrical activity in somebody's head," which I love.

我丈夫喜欢说：“好吧，别人对你的看法只是某人头脑中的电流活动”，我喜欢这样说。

That's just another way of categorizing it.

这只是另一种分类方式。

It's sort of like taking apart the- ...

这有点像拆开——...

taking apart the cup into pieces of light, right?

把杯子拆成光碎片吧？

And so whatever, there are just these moments where you feel depleted, and you could use the-- We often use affect as a indicator of how the world is.

所以无论如何，在某些时候你会感到精疲力尽，你可以使用——我们经常使用情感作为世界状况的指标。

If I feel bad, something must be wrong in the world.

如果我感觉不好，那么世界上一定出了什么问题。

But you have to resist that sometimes, because sometimes there's nothing wrong in the world.

但有时你必须抵制这一点，因为有时世界上并没有什么错。

It's just that you didn't get enough sleep, or you need to have a little bit more protein, or maybe you haven't gone for a walk and you're stiff or whatever.

只是你没有得到足够的睡眠，或者你需要多吃一点蛋白质，或者你可能没有出去散步而身体僵硬或者其他什么。

You need to do some stretching.

你需要做一些伸展运动。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Sorry to interrupt, but I think people are going to want to anchor to a few of these positive steps that they can take to, I don't want to say replenish, but to shift affect in positive directions: sleep, movement, nutrition.

抱歉打扰，但我认为人们会想要锚定他们可以采取的一些积极步骤，我不想说补充，而是将影响转向积极的方向：睡眠、运动、营养。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And I've heard you say before that we are essentially amino acid foraging machines.

我以前听你说过，我们本质上是氨基酸采集机器。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So yeah, I noticed you said protein.

是的，我注意到你说的是蛋白质。

You didn't say you need a bagel.

你没有说你需要百吉饼。

You said protein.

你说的是蛋白质。

We could go down that rabbit hole.

我们可以走进那个兔子洞。

Maybe we do, maybe we don't.

也许我们会，也许我们不会。

But I want to use this also just as a quick opportunity to say, as you're saying all this, one can immediately understand why alcohol and drugs of abuse are both so compelling.

但我也想借此机会说，正如你所说的，人们可以立即理解为什么酒精和滥用药物都如此引人注目。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right?

对吗？

You're not feeling well.

你感觉不舒服。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You're feeling tired.

你感觉很累。

Take a stimulant that releases dopamine-

服用释放多巴胺的兴奋剂——

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

You're-

你是——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

and epinephrine, but you're taxing your already taxed body budget-

和肾上腺素，但你正在对你已经征税的身体预算征税-

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Yes

是的

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

in a way that then puts you in a more depleted state later.

在某种程度上，随后会让你处于更加疲惫的状态。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Or alcohol.

或者酒精。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You feel lousy.

你感觉很糟糕。

And alcohol never did this for me, but friends I have who are recovered alcoholics will tell me that it was like a magic elixir.

酒精从来没有对我产生过这种效果，但我那些戒过酒的朋友会告诉我，它就像一种神奇的灵丹妙药。

It made them feel right.

这让他们感觉正确。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

That's their language.

那是他们的语言。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But then, of course, there's a price to pay later-

但当然，之后要付出代价——

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Yes

是的

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

because then it drops your baseline below where it was initially.

因为这样它会将你的基线降低到最初的水平以下。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Absolutely, 110%.

绝对是，110%。

But I just also want to say that so is serotonin.

但我也想说，血清素也是如此。

So are SSRIs, maybe.

也许 SSRI 也是如此。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

And when I say maybe, what I mean by that is if you really have a metabolic problem, say something's wrong with your mitochondria, or you're recovering from an illness, or there's just some metabolic problem in your body, that metabolic problem is real.

当我说也许的时候，我的意思是，如果你真的有代谢问题，比如说你的线粒体出了问题，或者你正在从疾病中恢复，或者你的身体只是存在一些代谢问题，那么代谢问题就是真实的。

If you start to feel unpleasant, you will, feel unpleasant.

如果你开始感到不愉快，你就会感到不愉快。

Your mood will be negative.

你的情绪将会变得消极。

If you start taking SSRIs, which will leave more serotonin in the synapses of your neurons before it's taken up again, that will juice the system.

如果你开始服用 SSRIs，它会在神经元突触中留下更多的血清素，然后再被吸收，这会给系统带来活力。

You will be able to spend.

你将能够消费。

You'll be able to move.

你就可以移动了。

You'll feel like you have more energy for a while.

您会感觉自己在一段时间内精力充沛。

But your nervous system is a complex system, and so it's going to make adjustments elsewhere to try to deal with that budgeting problem.

但你的神经系统是一个复杂的系统，因此它将在其他地方进行调整以尝试解决预算问题。

So exactly what happens when you take drugs of abuse and what happens on the short term can happen for some people with SSRIs on the longer term, where at first it starts to work, and then it stops working, and you start to gain weight, because your metabolism is slowing, because your brain is attempting to deal with that budgeting problem.

因此，服用滥用药物时会发生什么，以及短期内发生什么，对于一些服用 SSRI 的人来说，从长远来看，可能会发生这种情况，一开始它开始起作用，然后它停止起作用，你开始体重增加，因为你的新陈代谢正在减慢，因为你的大脑正在试图处理预算问题。

So it really matters what the source is.

所以来源是什么真的很重要。

It could be that your brain believes you have a budgeting problem, but there really isn't one.

您的大脑可能认为您存在预算问题，但实际上并不存在。

It could be that there really is one.

可能真的有一个。

These things matter to how you treat it.

这些事情取决于你如何对待它。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

One thing to just mention about SSRIs, and unfortunately, for reasons of confidentiality, I can't cite the source on this, but let me just say that somebody who's highly informed in the landscape of pharmaceutical treatments for psychiatric challenges has told me that there's an emerging theory among psychiatrists, there's kind of a collective emerging theory that One of the reasons why nowadays you hear about so-called treatment-resistant depression, but you did not hear about so-called treatment-resistant depression prior to the advent of SSRIs, is that there's a growing body of thought in the psychiatric community that SSRIs may, over time, as you're pointing out, deplete the very neural systems that subserve-

关于 SSRIs，有一点需要提一下，不幸的是，出于保密原因，我不能引用这方面的消息来源，但我只想说，一位对精神疾病药物治疗领域非常了解的人告诉我，精神科医生中有一种新兴理论，有一种集体新兴理论，它是为什么现在你听到所谓的难治性抑郁症，但在出现之前你没有听说过所谓的难治性抑郁症的原因之一。 SSRIs 的一个重要问题是，精神病学界越来越多的人认为 SSRIs 可能会随着时间的推移，正如你所指出的，耗尽那些促进神经系统的神经系统——

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Yes

是的

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

enhanced mood.

增强心情。

So it's different than a drug of abuse that gives you a very acute effect, like methamphetamine or cocaine-

所以它与滥用药物不同，滥用药物会给你带来非常严重的影响，比如甲基苯丙胺或可卡因——

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Absolutely

绝对

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

or alcohol, but that over time you may actually be pulling the very neural circuits and neurochemicals that would allow for positive affect deeper and deeper into the trenches-

或酒精，但随着时间的推移，你实际上可能会拉动神经回路和神经化学物质，从而使积极的影响越来越深——

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

so to speak.

可以这么说。

And so there's a growing number of people who simply don't respond to the drugs any longer-

因此，越来越多的人对药物不再有反应——

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Right

右

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

or other treatments.

或其他治疗方法。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Right.

对。

So I wasn't trying to say the mechanism is the same.

所以我并不是想说机制是相同的。

I was basically saying the theme is the same.

我基本上是说主题是相同的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right.

对。

And I'm agreeing with you.

我同意你的观点。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

What happens over the short term with drugs of abuse happens over the longer term for some people with SSRIs, because it hasn't been recognized yet that at the basis, depression is a metabolic problem.

对于一些服用 SSRIs 的人来说，滥用药物在短期内发生的情况会在长期内发生，因为人们还没有认识到抑郁症从根本上来说是一种代谢问题。

And when you have a metabolic problem like diabetes or obesity or heart disease, it's not that that causes depression, it's that there's a common problem, which is that somewhere in this very complex system of your metabolism, there's a drag, and it produces negative mood.

当你患有糖尿病、肥胖或心脏病等代谢问题时，并不是导致抑郁的原因，而是存在一个常见的问题，即在你的这个非常复杂的新陈代谢系统中的某个地方，出现了阻力，并产生了消极情绪。

And that's how you experience it.

这就是你的体验方式。

Sometimes it's productive not to turn that negative affect into an emotion.

有时，不将负面影响转化为情绪是有成效的。

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

有时雪茄只是雪茄。

Sometimes you just need to deal with the affective problem by dealing with your physical state.

有时你只需要通过处理你的身体状态来处理情感问题。

And that's the tricky bit, is knowing when is affect telling you something is wrong with the world, and when is it telling you that there's something wrong with your physical state that you need to attend to?

这就是棘手的一点，那就是知道什么时候情绪会告诉你世界出了问题，什么时候它会告诉你你的身体状态有问题需要你注意？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I think everything, to me at least, starts with a good night's sleep on a consistent basis.

我认为，至少对我来说，一切都始于持续良好的睡眠。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Absolutely.

绝对的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And every psychiatric challenge, and indeed suicide itself, seems to be associated with and often preceded by challenges in sleeping-

每一次精神挑战，甚至自杀本身，似乎都与睡眠挑战有关，并且往往先于睡眠挑战——

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Oh, absolutely

哦，绝对

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

changes in circadian rhythm.

昼夜节律的变化。

So I think that's why, to me, sleep is the foundation of mental health and physical health.

所以我认为这就是为什么对我来说睡眠是心理健康和身体健康的基础。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Yep, absolutely.

是的，绝对是。

And so when I tell people, when they say, "Well, what can I do?" I say, "Well, if there's only one thing that you could pick," I would say get a good night's sleep on a regular basis.

所以当我告诉人们时，当他们说：“好吧，我能做什么？”我说，“好吧，如果只有一件事你可以选择的话，”我会说定期睡个好觉。

If you could pick two more, I would say eat healthfully, stop eating pseudo food.

如果你能再选两个，我会说健康饮食，停止吃伪食品。

Don't get me wrong, I love french fries.

别误会我的意思，我喜欢炸薯条。

They're like-

他们就像——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

They're delicious

它们很好吃

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

...

...

that's like God's most perfect food.

那就像上帝最完美的食物。

Really.

真的。

But eat healthfully, eat real food, and get exercise.

但要健康饮食，吃真正的食物，并进行锻炼。

And if you do those three things, I know I sound like a mother, and so feel free to roll your eyes at me, but as a neuroscientist, actually, before you start with all the mentalizing Jedi tricks, you could just start with this.

如果你做了这三件事，我知道我听起来像个母亲，所以请随意对我翻白眼，但实际上，作为一名神经科学家，在你开始所有心理化绝地技巧之前，你可以从这个开始。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

And that would actually take you pretty far.

这实际上会让你走得很远。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And that will resonate very well with our audience.

这将引起我们观众的强烈共鸣。

The basics of sleep, exercise, food, sunlight, and social connection are the ones-

睡眠、锻炼、食物、阳光和社交联系的基本要素是——

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

I was going to say

我本来想说

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

that we just anchor to.

我们只是锚定到的。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Those five are the ones that we just keep returning to over and over again.

这五个是我们一遍又一遍地回顾的。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And I think people will say, "Oh, it's just simple, motherly advice," but I think that those five things, even just the one thing around sleep-

我认为人们会说，“哦，这只是简单的、母亲般的建议”，但我认为这五件事，甚至只是与睡眠有关的一件事——

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

there's some work that's required to get that done.

要完成这项工作还需要做一些工作。

So it's not as simple.

所以事情没那么简单。

The categories are simple.

类别很简单。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But the work that's required to get great sleep as often as one can on a consistent basis, if you're raising kids, have a career-

但是，如果你要抚养孩子，那么你需要做的工作就是要尽可能多地持续获得良好的睡眠，如果你要养育孩子，那么你就有一份职业——

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

For sure

当然

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

live in the world, there's a lot there.

生活在这个世界上，有很多东西。

And so that's where I think there's an elaboration of things, and one needs to learn to be flexible.

所以我认为这就是事情的复杂性，人们需要学会保持灵活性。

Like when-

就像当-

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

For sure

当然

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

you're traveling, how do you do that?

你正在旅行，你会怎么做？

When friends are visiting, how do you do that?

当朋友来访时，你会怎么做？

When weather's off, and so on.

天气不好的时候等等。

The relationship piece is something-

关系部分是这样的——

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

I was just going to say, I'm so glad you mentioned that.

我只是想说，我很高兴你提到这一点。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

I'm so glad you mentioned that.

我很高兴你提到这一点。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Because you said before, and this was another one of those moments, I've listened to as many of your podcasts as I possibly can, but I think it was the first or the second one with Lex Fridman, where you said, "We are regulating each other's nervous systems." And I will never forget that.

因为你之前说过，这是另一个这样的时刻，我尽可能多地听了你的播客，但我认为这是莱克斯·弗里德曼的第一个或第二个播客，你说，“我们正在调节彼此的神经系统。”我永远不会忘记这一点。

And I imagine that you married your husband for a number of different reasons, but when people pair up with romantic partners, with friends, with coworkers, the ideal situation is one in which we are not taxed, where maybe even people, and just being around them or just knowing that they are in our lives, provides a sort of deposit to-

我想你和你丈夫结婚有很多不同的原因，但是当人们与浪漫的伴侣、朋友、同事配对时，理想的情况是我们不纳税，甚至可能是人，只是在他们身边，或者只是知道他们在我们的生活中，提供了一种存款——

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Yeah, it's a savings.

是的，这是一个储蓄。

It provides a savings.

它提供了节省。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It's a savings.

这是一笔储蓄。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

For sure.

当然。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

And then I think that's a lot of what emotional resonance-

然后我认为这就是很多情感共鸣——

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

to put kind of pop language on it-

在上面加上某种流行语言-

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

is all about.

就是这样。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Who feels good to be around, who doesn't feel good to be around.

和谁在一起感觉很好，和谁在一起感觉不好。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Yeah.

是的。

I would say the best thing for a human nervous system is another human, and the worst thing for a human nervous system is also another human.

我想说，对人类神经系统来说最好的事情是另一个人，对人类神经系统来说最糟糕的事情也是另一个人。

And so you really want to be around the people who make you the best version of yourself that you could be.

所以你真的想和那些让你成为最好的自己的人在一起。

And that doesn't mean that you always get a savings.

这并不意味着您总能节省开支。

Sometimes you're taking care of that person, and so you're absorbing some of their burden, right?

有时你在照顾那个人，所以你也在承担他们的一些负担，对吗？

And vice versa.

反之亦然。

But I would say the research on social isolation and loneliness and so on shows us that, well, along with research on synchrony, and there's just a whole bunch of research to suggest that we are the caretakers of each other's nervous systems.

但我想说，关于社会孤立和孤独等的研究向我们表明，连同对同步性的研究，还有一大堆研究表明，我们是彼此神经系统的看护者。

And it doesn't matter what your opinion is.

你的意见是什么并不重要。

But that's how we evolved as a species, and so you get to decide what kind of a person are you going to be.

但这就是我们作为一个物种进化的方式，所以你要决定你要成为什么样的人。

Are you going to be a Are you going to be a savings or are you going to be a tax?

您要成为储蓄者还是纳税人？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And in general, it seems that people who decide that they're going to be a savings tend to, because people gravitate towards that and want more of that-

总的来说，那些决定将自己储蓄起来的人似乎倾向于这样做，因为人们倾向于这样做并且想要更多——

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

and hopefully would provide that also.

并希望也能提供这一点。

I think the reciprocity piece here feels really strong.

我认为这里的互惠性感觉非常强烈。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Well, that's a really interesting thing about the synchrony work.

嗯，这是同步工作中非常有趣的事情。

So there's research that if you put people together who don't even know each other, but if they like each other and they have a sense of trust, even after a couple of minutes, they start to synchronize their physical signals.

因此有研究表明，如果你把彼此不认识的人放在一起，但如果他们彼此喜欢并且有信任感，即使几分钟后，他们也会开始同步他们的身体信号。

Their heart rate starts to synchronize, their movements start to synchronize.

他们的心率开始同步，他们的动作开始同步。

Their heart rate probably synchronizes because their breathing starts to synchronize.

他们的心率可能同步，因为他们的呼吸开始同步。

And it's really interesting to see what you typically see is that who is pacing and who is leading.

看到你通常看到的是谁在节奏、谁在领先，这真的很有趣。

One person is the leader, and then the other person is the pacer.

一个人是领导者，另一个人是领跑者。

And I got that language from when I learned hypnosis, by the way.

顺便说一句，当我学习催眠时，我就学会了这种语言。

But it switches back and forth, like who's the leader.

但它来回切换，就像谁是领导者一样。

In a good, what would we say good, in an interaction that looks productive, it's switching all the time who is pacing and who is leading.

在一个好的方面，我们会说什么是好的，在一个看起来富有成效的互动中，它一直在切换谁在节奏，谁在领导。

It's not that always one person is in charge, so to speak, physiologically speaking.

从生理学角度来说，并不总是由一个人负责。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

We did a series recently on mental health with Paul Conti, who's a-

我们最近与保罗·康蒂（Paul Conti）合作制作了一系列关于心理健康的系列节目，他是——

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

psychiatrist, and the word narcissism came up a few times because people have a lot of questions about that.

精神科医生，自恋这个词出现了几次，因为人们对此有很多疑问。

And he emphasized that narcissists are not confident.

他强调，自恋者不自信。

They operate from a place of a deficit of pleasure.

他们在缺乏快乐的地方运作。

It's never enough, and an intense envy.

永远都不够，还有强烈的嫉妒。

Although that's not how they present, and they're often usually not aware of it themselves, but it's what leads healthy people to feel as if the interactions with those people, narcissists, often can be very compelling in the moment, but they feel very taxed afterwards-

虽然他们不是这样表现的，而且他们自己通常也没有意识到这一点，但这就是让健康的人感觉好像与那些自恋者的互动在当下非常引人注目，但事后他们感到非常负担——

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

and kind of confused by what happened.

对发生的事情感到有点困惑。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And it sounds like it ties back to this lack of synchrony.

听起来这似乎与缺乏同步性有关。

On the positive side of things, it's also clear from what you just said that when people regulate each other's nervous systems in a way where people are making little deposits and providing savings for each other, or maybe things are just neutral, that those nervous systems are then in a position to pay attention to other things too-

从积极的一面来看，从你刚才所说的也可以清楚地看出，当人们以一种很少存款并为彼此提供储蓄的方式调节彼此的神经系统时，或者也许事情只是中性的，那么这些神经系统也能够关注其他事情——

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

and not just try and work out the dynamics.

而不仅仅是尝试找出动态。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Oh, for sure.

哦，当然。

Oh, and that's very true at work.

哦，在工作中也是如此。

So there's research showing that, especially in the creativity sector, innovation sector of the economy, the best predictor of performance on the job is the extent to which people feel, after you account for sleep and watering and sleeping and feeding.

研究表明，特别是在经济的创意领域、创新领域，工作绩效的最佳预测指标是人们在考虑了睡眠、饮水、睡眠和进食后的感受程度。

The best predictor is the amount of trust that you have in your team and in your managers.

最好的预测指标是您对团队和经理的信任程度。

Because if the world is predictable, things could be hard.

因为如果世界是可以预测的，事情可能会很困难。

Even when things are unpredictable, you have people who have your back.

即使事情不可预测，你也会有人支持你。

And so basically what you're doing is they're making deposits or savings.

所以基本上你所做的就是他们在存款或储蓄。

They're causing savings in each other's body budgets, so their resources can be spent on the harder things, which is failing and having to pick yourself back up and try again, which is partly what you do when you're an innovator.

他们节省了彼此的身体预算，因此他们的资源可以花在更困难的事情上，这些事情失败了，必须振作起来并再次尝试，这就是当你是创新者时你会做的部分事情。

So I think that there's also research to show that in your personal life, when you do random acts of kindness for people, or when you're kind in general, you derive also a body budgeting benefit from that.

因此，我认为还有研究表明，在你的个人生活中，当你随机为他人做出善意的行为时，或者当你总体上友善时，你也会从中获得身体预算的好处。

So for a while, I had a friend who we would meet each other for lunch once a month, and we would take turns paying.

所以有一段时间，我有一个朋友，我们每个月都会见面吃一次午餐，我们会轮流付钱。

We could both pay for ourselves, but we kind of got a double hit.

我们都可以为自己付出代价，但我们却受到了双重打击。

He paid for me one month, and then I would pay for him one month.

他付我一个月的钱，我也付他一个月的钱。

And so we get the double hit of being kind to someone else, and also they got the benefit of someone being kind to them.

因此，我们因善待别人而受到双重打击，而他们也因别人善待他们而受益。

And I'll just say, I think kindness is a-- I don't know that we have so many conversations about that in our culture right now, but I think kindness is very underrated and should be.

我只想说，我认为善良是——我不知道我们现在在我们的文化中有这么多关于这一点的对话，但我认为善良被低估了，而且应该被低估。

When I feel like shit, I bake bread for my neighbor who's in his 70s, him and his wife.

当我感觉很糟糕时，我会为我 70 多岁的邻居、他和他的妻子烤面包。

That's what I do when I'm not feeling good.

当我感觉不好的时候我就是这么做的。

After I've taken care of the possible physical causes.

在我解决了可能的身体原因之后。

And then I feel great because he's always so grateful, and then I felt like I made his day better.

然后我感觉很好，因为他总是那么感激，然后我觉得我让他的日子变得更好。

And then also he helps me in other ways, like with my garden and stuff, because he's just a master gardener.

然后他也在其他方面帮助我，比如我的花园之类的，因为他只是一位园丁大师。

And so I feel like we have this relationship where we help each other, and I know it sounds really sappy, but-- And even though all the research backs up what I'm saying, it doesn't quite describe the feeling of when someone is just really happy because you just gave them a little surprise, and there's just some juice in that, I think.

所以我觉得我们之间有这种互相帮助的关系，我知道这听起来真的很伤感，但是——尽管所有的研究都支持我所说的，但它并不能完全描述当某人真的很高兴时的感觉，因为你只是给了他们一点惊喜，我认为这其中有一些果汁。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Oh, in some culture out there, there's a word for that.

哦，在某些文化中，有一个词来形容这一点。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

I'm sure there is.

我确信有。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And someone will tell us.

有人会告诉我们。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

I'm sure there is.

我确信有。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Well, I have to say, I've thoroughly enjoyed this conversation.

好吧，我不得不说，我非常喜欢这次谈话。

Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett:

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特博士：

Oh, me too.

哦，我也是。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I've been looking forward to it for a long time, and you've provided us with a really broad arc, but also a deep dive into not just how emotions are made, not just about affect, but as you mentioned earlier, really how the nervous system works.

我期待它很久了，你为我们提供了一个非常广泛的弧线，而且还深入探讨了情绪是如何产生的，不仅仅是情感，而且正如你之前提到的，神经系统是如何运作的。

And I am certain, in fact, that our audience is taking this in and realizing that that knowledge is incredibly powerful.

事实上，我确信我们的观众正在接受这一点，并意识到这些知识的力量非常强大。

The addition of nuance, both to language and to sort of self-reflection states as extremely valuable.

语言和自我反思中添加的细微差别都非常有价值。

Oftentimes, when one gets into a conversation that has some level of reductionism and you get into nomenclature and things like that, it can really pull away from the real-life experience of something, but this is exactly the opposite.

通常，当一个人进入具有一定程度还原论的对话并且涉及术语和类似的东西时，它确实会脱离某些事物的现实生活体验，但事实恰恰相反。

What you've done for us today is you've provided such a rich array of information that adds richness and depth to the real-life experience.

您今天为我们所做的就是提供了如此丰富的信息，为现实生活体验增添了丰富性和深度。

And that is really invaluable.

这确实是无价的。

So on behalf of myself and all the listeners and the people watching this, I want to say thank you for today's discussion.

因此，我谨代表我自己以及所有听众和观看此节目的人，对今天的讨论表示感谢。

Thank you for the books you've written, which we've provided links to in the show note captions.

感谢您撰写的书籍，我们在节目注释标题中提供了这些书籍的链接。

Thanks for showing up on social media despite the- ...

感谢您出现在社交媒体上，尽管 - ...

the challenges that exist there sometimes.

有时存在的挑战。

You always handle yourself so well there, and we will refer people to your excellent social media accounts as well.

你在那里总是表现得很好，我们也会向人们推荐你优秀的社交媒体帐户。

And just for all the work that you're doing in your laboratory, and you're now director of various things related to AI and more.

就你在实验室所做的所有工作而言，你现在是与人工智能等相关的各种事务的主管。

And we'll talk about this hopefully in future episodes.

我们希望在未来的剧集中讨论这个问题。

Speaker 4:

演讲者4：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But just a really enormous thank you.

但真的非常感谢。

Speaker 4:

演讲者4：

Thank you.

谢谢你。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Thank you for joining me for today's discussion about the psychology and neuroscience of emotions with Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett.

感谢您今天与 Lisa Feldman Barrett 博士一起参加关于情绪心理学和神经科学的讨论。

If you're learning from and/or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel.

如果您正在学习和/或喜欢此播客，请订阅我们的 YouTube 频道。

That's a terrific zero-cost way to support us.

这是支持我们的绝佳零成本方式。

In addition, please subscribe to the podcast on both Spotify and Apple.

此外，请在 Spotify 和 Apple 上订阅该播客。

And on both Spotify and Apple, you can leave us up to a five-star review.

在 Spotify 和 Apple 上，您都可以给我们五星级的评价。

Please check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode.

请查看今天节目开头和整个节目中提到的赞助商。

That's the best way to support this podcast.

这是支持这个播客的最佳方式。

If you have questions or comments about the podcast or topics or guests that you'd like me to consider for the Huberman Lab Podcast, please put those in the comments section on YouTube.

如果您对播客、希望我在 Huberman 实验室播客中考虑的主题或嘉宾有任何疑问或意见，请将这些问题或意见放入 YouTube 的评论部分。

I do read all the comments.

我确实阅读了所有评论。

Not on today's episode, but on many previous episodes of the Huberman Lab Podcast, we discuss supplements.

不是在今天的节目中，而是在 Huberman 实验室播客的许多之前的节目中，我们讨论了补充剂。

While supplements aren't necessary for everybody, many people derive tremendous benefit from them for things like improving sleep, for hormone support, and for focus.

虽然补充剂并不是每个人都需要的，但许多人从它们中获得了巨大的好处，例如改善睡眠、激素支持和注意力集中。

If you'd like to see the supplements discussed on the Huberman Lab Podcast, you can go to Live Momentous, spelled O-U-S, so livemomentous.com/huberman.

如果您想查看 Huberman 实验室播客上讨论的补充内容，您可以访问 Live Momentous，拼写为 O-U-S，即 livemomentous.com/huberman。

If you're not already following me on social media, I am hubermanlab on all platforms.

如果您还没有在社交媒体上关注我，我是所有平台上的 hubermanlab。

So that's Instagram, Twitter, now called X, Facebook, LinkedIn, and Threads.

这就是 Instagram、Twitter（现在称为 X）、Facebook、LinkedIn 和 Threads。

And at all those places, I discuss science and science-related tools, some of which overlap with the content of the Huberman Lab Podcast, but much of which is distinct from the content covered on the Huberman Lab Podcast.

在所有这些地方，我讨论了科学和与科学相关的工具，其中一些与胡伯曼实验室播客的内容重叠，但其中大部分与胡伯曼实验室播客涵盖的内容不同。

So again, it's hubermanlab on all social media platforms.

再说一遍，所有社交媒体平台上都是 hubermanlab。

And if you haven't already subscribed to our zero-cost Neural Network Newsletter, the Neural Network Newsletter is a monthly newsletter that includes podcast summaries as well as toolkits in the form of protocols.

如果您还没有订阅我们的零成本神经网络新闻通讯，神经网络新闻通讯是一份每月通讯，其中包括播客摘要以及协议形式的工具包。

So these are short PDFs that list out the specific things that one could do in order to, for example, improve sleep, improve learning, regulate dopamine.

这些简短的 PDF 列出了人们可以做的具体事情，例如改善睡眠、提高学习能力、调节多巴胺。

We have toolkits and protocols that relate to fitness from our fitness episodes and much, much more.

我们拥有与健身片段等健身相关的工具包和协议。

To sign up, simply go to hubermanlab.com, click on the Newsletter tab at the top of the site, and then enter your email and click Subscribe.

要注册，只需访问 hubermanlab.com，单击网站顶部的“新闻通讯”选项卡，然后输入您的电子邮件并单击“订阅”。

I want to point out that we do not share your email with anybody, and again, the newsletter is completely zero cost.

我想指出的是，我们不会与任何人分享您的电子邮件，而且，时事通讯完全是零成本。

Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett, and last but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.

再次感谢您参加今天与 Lisa Feldman Barrett 博士的讨论，最后但同样重要的是，感谢您对科学的兴趣。