Dr. Lex Fridman: Machines, Creativity & Love

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.

欢迎来到休伯曼实验室播客，我们在这里讨论科学和基于科学的日常生活工具。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I'm Andrew Huberman and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.

我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。

Today I have the pleasure of introducing Dr. Lex Fridman as our guest on the Huberman Lab podcast.

今天，我很荣幸地介绍 Lex Fridman 博士作为我们 Huberman 实验室播客的嘉宾。

Dr. Fridman is a researcher at MIT specializing in machine learning, artificial intelligence and human-robot interactions.

Fridman 博士是麻省理工学院的研究员，专门研究机器学习、人工智能和人机交互。

I must say that the conversation with Lex was, without question, one of the most fascinating conversations that I've ever had, not just in my career, but in my lifetime.

I must say that the conversation with Lex was, without question, one of the most fascinating conversations that I've ever had, not just in my career, but in my lifetime.

I knew that Lex worked on these topics, and I think many of you are probably familiar with Lex and his interest in these topics from his incredible podcast, the Lex Fridman podcast.

我知道 Lex 致力于这些主题，我想你们中的许多人可能都通过他令人难以置信的播客 Lex Fridman 播客熟悉了 Lex 以及他对这些主题的兴趣。

If you're not already watching that podcast, please subscribe to it.

如果您还没有观看该播客，请订阅它。

It is absolutely fantastic.

这绝对是太棒了。

But in holding this conversation with Lex, I realized something far more important.

但在与莱克斯进行这次谈话时，我意识到一些更重要的事情。

He revealed to us a bit of his dream, his dream about humans and robots, about humans and machines, and about how those interactions can change the way that we perceive ourselves and that we interact with the world.

He revealed to us a bit of his dream, his dream about humans and robots, about humans and machines, and about how those interactions can change the way that we perceive ourselves and that we interact with the world.

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

We discuss relationships of all kinds, relationships with animals, relationships with friends, relationships with family and romantic relationships.

We discuss relationships of all kinds, relationships with animals, relationships with friends, relationships with family and romantic relationships.

And we discuss relationships with machines — machines that move and machines that don't move.

我们讨论与机器的关系——移动的机器和不移动的机器。

And machines that come to understand us in ways that we could never understand for ourselves, and how those machines can educate us about ourselves.

And machines that come to understand us in ways that we could never understand for ourselves, and how those machines can educate us about ourselves.

Before this conversation, I had no concept of the ways in which machines could inform me or anyone about themselves.

在这次谈话之前，我对机器如何向我或任何人了解它们自己一无所知。

By the end, I was absolutely taken with the idea, and I'm still taken with the idea.

到最后，我完全被这个想法所吸引，而且仍然被这个想法所吸引。

The interactions with machines of a very particular kind, a kind that Lex understands and wants to bring to the world, can not only transform the self, but may very well transform humanity.

The interactions with machines of a very particular kind, a kind that Lex understands and wants to bring to the world, can not only transform the self, but may very well transform humanity.

So whether or not you're familiar with Dr. Lex Fridman or not, I'm certain you're going to learn a tremendous amount from him during the course of our discussion.

So whether or not you're familiar with Dr. Lex Fridman or not, I'm certain you're going to learn a tremendous amount from him during the course of our discussion.

And that it will transform the way you think about yourself and about the world.

它将改变你对自己和世界的看法。

Before we begin, I want to mention that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.

在开始之前，我想提一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。

It is however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero-cost-to-consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public.

然而，我的愿望和努力的一部分是将有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本消费者信息带给公众。

In keeping with that theme, I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast.

为了与这个主题保持一致，我要感谢今天播客的赞助商。

And now my conversation with Dr. Lex Fridman.

现在是我与莱克斯·弗里德曼博士的对话。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

We meet again.

我们又见面了。

We meet again.

我们又见面了。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Thanks so much for sitting down with me.

非常感谢您和我坐在一起。

I have a question that I think is on a lot of people's minds.

我有一个问题，我想这是很多人都关心的问题。

Or ought to be on a lot of people's minds because we hear these terms a lot these days.

或者应该是很多人的想法，因为这些天我们经常听到这些术语。

But I think most people, including most scientists and including me, don't know really what is artificial intelligence and how is it different from things like machine learning and robotics.

但我认为大多数人，包括大多数科学家，也包括我，并不真正了解什么是人工智能，以及它与机器学习和机器人等技术有何不同。

So if you would be so kind as to explain to us what is artificial intelligence, and what is machine learning?

那么您能否向我们解释一下什么是人工智能，什么是机器学习？

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

Well, I think that question is as complicated and as fascinating as the question of what is intelligence.

嗯，我认为这个问题与什么是智力的问题一样复杂且令人着迷。

So I think of artificial intelligence, first, as a big philosophical thing.

所以我首先认为人工智能是一个重要的哲学问题。

Pamela McCorduck said AI was the ancient wish to forge the gods, or was born as an ancient wish to forge the gods.

帕梅拉·麦考达克（Pamela McCorduck）说，人工智能是古老的锻造神的愿望，或者说是作为古老的锻造神的愿望而诞生的。

So I think at the big philosophical level, it's our longing to create other intelligence systems, perhaps systems more powerful than us.

所以我认为在大的哲学层面上，我们渴望创建其他智能系统，也许是比我们更强大的系统。

At the more narrow level, I think it's also a set of tools that are computational mathematical tools to automate different tasks.

在更狭义的层面上，我认为它也是一组工具，是自动化不同任务的计算数学工具。

And then also it's our attempt to understand our own mind.

然后，这也是我们尝试了解自己的想法。

So build systems that exhibit some intelligent behavior in order to understand what is intelligence in our own selves.

因此，构建表现出某些智能行为的系统，以便了解什么是我们自己的智能。

So all those things are true.

所以所有这些都是真的。

Of course, what AI really means as a community, as a set of researchers and engineers, it's a set of tools, a set of computational techniques that allow you to solve various problems.

Of course, what AI really means as a community, as a set of researchers and engineers, it's a set of tools, a set of computational techniques that allow you to solve various problems.

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

There's a long history that approaches the problem from different perspectives.

从不同角度处理这个问题的历史由来已久。

What's always been throughout one of the threads, one of the communities, goes under the flag of machine learning, which is emphasizing, in the AI space, the task of learning.

What's always been throughout one of the threads, one of the communities, goes under the flag of machine learning, which is emphasizing, in the AI space, the task of learning.

How do you make a machine that knows very little in the beginning follow some kind of process and learns to become better and better in a particular task?

How do you make a machine that knows very little in the beginning follow some kind of process and learns to become better and better in a particular task?

What's been most, very effective in the recent about 15 years is a set of techniques that fall under the flag of deep learning that utilize neural networks.

What's been most, very effective in the recent about 15 years is a set of techniques that fall under the flag of deep learning that utilize neural networks.

What neural networks are are these fascinating things inspired by the structure of the human brain — very loosely.

神经网络是受人脑结构启发而产生的令人着迷的东西——非常松散。

But they have, it's a network of these little basic computational units called neurons, artificial neurons, and they have ...

但他们有，这是一个由这些称为神经元、人工神经元的基本计算单元组成的网络，而且他们有……

these architectures have an input and an output.

这些架构有输入和输出。

They know nothing in the beginning, and they're tasked with learning something interesting.

他们一开始什么都不知道，他们的任务是学习一些有趣的东西。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

What that something interesting is usually involves a particular task.

有趣的事情通常涉及特定的任务。

There's a lot of ways to talk about this and break this down.

有很多方法可以讨论并分解它。

Like, one of them is how much human supervision is required to teach this thing.

比如，其中之一是需要多少人工监督来教授这件事。

So supervised learning, this broad category, is the neural network knows nothing in the beginning.

所以监督学习这个宽泛的范畴，是神经网络一开始就一无所知。

And then it's given a bunch of examples of, in computer vision that would be examples of cats, dogs, cars, traffic signs.

然后给出了一堆计算机视觉的例子，比如猫、狗、汽车、交通标志。

And then you're given the image, and you're given the ground truth of what's in that image.

然后你会得到图像，并且得到该图像中内容的基本事实。

And when you get a large database of such image examples where you know the truth, the neural network is able to learn by example; that's called supervised learning.

当你获得一个包含了解真相的此类图像示例的大型数据库时，神经网络就能够通过示例进行学习；这就是所谓的监督学习。

The quest ...

任务...

there's a lot of fascinating questions within that, which is how do you provide the truth when you've given an image of a cat?

其中有很多有趣的问题，那就是当你给出猫的图像时，你如何提供真相？

How do you provide to the computer that this image contains a cat?

如何向计算机提供该图像包含一只猫？

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

Do you just say the entire image is a picture of a cat?

你刚才说整个图像是一张猫的照片吗？

Do you do what's very commonly been done, which is a bounding box?

你会做一些非常常见的事情，即边界框吗？

You have a very crude box around the cat's face saying, "This is a cat." Do you do semantic segmentation?

猫的脸上有一个非常粗糙的盒子，上面写着：“这是一只猫。”你做语义分割吗？

Mind you, this is a 2D image of a cat.

请注意，这是猫的 2D 图像。

So it's not, the computer knows nothing about our three-dimensional world, it's just looking at a set of pixels.

所以事实并非如此，计算机对我们的三维世界一无所知，它只是查看一组像素。

So semantic segmentation is drawing a nice, very crisp outline around the cat and saying, "That's a cat." That's really difficult to provide that truth.

因此，语义分割正在猫周围画出一个漂亮、非常清晰的轮廓，并说：“那是一只猫。”提供这个事实确实很难。

And one of the fundamental open questions in computer vision, is that even a good representation of the truth?

计算机视觉中的基本开放问题之一是，这是否能很好地反映事实？

Now there's another contrasting set of ideas that attention, their overlapping is what's used to be called unsupervised learning.

现在还有另一组相反的想法，即注意力，它们的重叠就是过去所谓的无监督学习。

What's commonly now called self-supervised learning, which is trying to get less and less and less human supervision into the task.

现在通常所说的自我监督学习，就是试图让越来越少的人类监督参与到任务中。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

So self-supervised learning is more ...

所以自我监督学习更...

has been very successful in the domain of language model, natural language processing.

在语言模型、自然语言处理领域已经非常成功。

And now more and more is being successful in computer vision task.

现在越来越多的人在计算机视觉任务中取得了成功。

And the idea there is let the machine, without any ground truth annotation, just look at pictures on the Internet, or look at text on the Internet, and try to learn something generalizable about the ideas that are at the core of language or at the core of vision.

这个想法是让机器，在没有任何真实注释的情况下，只看互联网上的图片，或者看互联网上的文本，并尝试学习一些关于语言或视觉核心思想的可概括的东西。

And based on that, we humans, at its best, like to call that common sense.

基于此，我们人类在最好的情况下喜欢称之为常识。

So with this, we have this giant base of knowledge on top of which we build more sophisticated knowledge, but we have this kind of common-sense knowledge.

因此，我们拥有了这个巨大的知识库，在此基础上我们构建了更复杂的知识，但我们也拥有了这种常识性知识。

And so the idea with self-supervised learning is to build this common-sense knowledge about what are the fundamental visual ideas that make up a cat and a dog and all those kinds of things without ever having human supervision.

And so the idea with self-supervised learning is to build this common-sense knowledge about what are the fundamental visual ideas that make up a cat and a dog and all those kinds of things without ever having human supervision.

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

The dream there is the ...

那里的梦想是...

you just let an AI system that's self-supervised run around the Internet for a while, watch YouTube videos for millions and millions of hours and without any supervision, be primed and ready to actually learn with very few examples.

you just let an AI system that's self-supervised run around the Internet for a while, watch YouTube videos for millions and millions of hours and without any supervision, be primed and ready to actually learn with very few examples.

Once the human is able to show up; we think of children in this way, human children, is your parents only give one or two examples to teach a concept.

一旦人类能够出现；我们是这样看待孩子的，人类的孩子，就是你父母只举一两个例子来教一个概念。

The dream with self-supervised learning is that would be the same with machines, that they would watch millions of hours of YouTube videos.

自我监督学习的梦想是与机器一样，它们可以观看数百万小时的 YouTube 视频。

And then come to a human and be able to understand when the human shows them, "This is a cat, remember this is a cat." They will understand that a cat is not just a thing with pointy ears, or a cat is a thing that's orange or it's furry.

然后来到人类面前，当人类向他们展示“这是一只猫，记住这是一只猫”时，能够理解。他们会明白猫不仅仅是有尖耳朵的东西，或者猫是橙色或毛茸茸的东西。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

They'll see something more fundamental that we humans might not actually be able to introspect and understand.

他们会看到一些我们人类实际上可能无法反省和理解的更基本的东西。

Like, if I asked you what makes a cat versus a dog, you wouldn't probably ...

就像，如果我问你是什么让猫与狗不同，你可能不会......

not be able to answer that.

无法回答这个问题。

But if I showed you, brought to you a cat and a dog, you'd be able to tell the difference.

但如果我给你看，给你带来一只猫和一只狗，你就能分辨出来。

What are the ideas that your brain uses to make that difference?

你的大脑使用什么想法来产生这种差异？

That's the whole dream of self-supervised learning, is it would be able to learn that on its own, that set of common-sense knowledge that's able to tell the difference.

这就是自我监督学习的全部梦想，它能够自己学习一套能够区分差异的常识知识。

And then there's like a lot of incredible uses of self-supervised learning, very weirdly called self-play mechanism.

然后，自我监督学习有很多令人难以置信的用途，非常奇怪地称为自我游戏机制。

That's the mechanism behind the reinforcement learning successes of the systems that want it, Go at AlphaZero that won at chess.

这就是强化学习系统成功背后的机制，AlphaZero 的围棋在国际象棋比赛中获胜。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Oh, I see.

哦，我明白了。

That play games.

那个打游戏。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

That play games.

那个打游戏。

So the idea of self-play, this probably applies to other domains than just games, is a system that just plays against itself.

因此，自我对战的想法可能适用于游戏以外的其他领域，它是一个只与自己对抗的系统。

And this is fascinating in all kinds of domains, but it knows nothing in the beginning.

这在各个领域都很令人着迷，但一开始它却一无所知。

And the whole idea is it creates a bunch of mutations of itself and plays against those versions of itself.

整个想法是它创造了一堆自身的突变并与自身的这些版本进行对抗。

And the fascinating thing is when you play against systems that are a little bit better than you, you start to get better yourself.

令人着迷的是，当你与比你好一点的系统对抗时，你自己就会开始变得更好。

Like learning, that's how you ...

就像学习一样，你就是这样...

learning happens.

学习发生了。

That's true for martial arts.

对于武术来说也是如此。

That's true in a lot of cases where you want to be interacting with systems that are just a little better than you.

在很多情况下确实如此，您希望与比您好一点的系统进行交互。

And then through this process of interacting with systems just a little better than you, you start following this process where everybody starts getting better and better and better and better until you are several orders of magnitude better than the world champion in chess, for example.

然后，通过与比你稍微好一点的系统交互的过程，你开始遵循这个过程，每个人都开始变得越来越好，越来越好，直到你比国际象棋世界冠军好几个数量级。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

And it's fascinating because it's like a runaway system.

它很有趣，因为它就像一个失控的系统。

One of the most terrifying and exciting things that David Silver, the creator of AlphaGo and AlphaZero, one of the leaders of the team, said to me is they haven't found the ceiling for AlphaZero, meaning it could just arbitrarily keep improving.

AlphaGo 和 AlphaZero 的创始人、该团队的领导者之一 David Silver 对我说的最可怕和令人兴奋的事情之一是，他们还没有找到 AlphaZero 的上限，这意味着它可以任意地不断改进。

Now in the realm of chess, that doesn't matter to us that it's like, it just ran away with the game of chess.

现在在国际象棋领域，这对我们来说并不重要，它只是逃离了国际象棋比赛。

Like it's, like, just so much better than humans.

就好像它比人类好得多。

But the question is what if you can create that in the realm that does have a bigger, deeper effect on human beings and societies; that could be a terrifying process.

但问题是，如果你能够在确实对人类和社会产生更大、更深影响的领域中创造出这样的东西，会怎样？这可能是一个可怕的过程。

To me, it's an exciting process if you supervise it correctly.

对我来说，如果你正确监督的话，这是一个令人兴奋的过程。

If you inject what's called "value alignment," you make sure that the goals that the AI is optimizing is aligned with human beings and human societies.

如果你注入所谓的“价值一致性”，你就可以确保人工智能正在优化的目标与人类和人类社会保持一致。

There's a lot of fascinating things to talk about within the specifics of neural networks and all the problems that people are working on.

在神经网络的细节和人们正在解决的所有问题中，有很多有趣的事情可以讨论。

But I would say the really big, exciting one is self-supervised learning, where trying to get less and less human supervision, less and less human supervision of neural networks.

但我想说，真正重要、令人兴奋的是自我监督学习，即试图获得越来越少的人类监督，越来越少的人类对神经网络的监督。

And also just to comment, and I'll shut up ...

也只是发表评论，我会闭嘴......

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

No, please keep going.

不，请继续。

I'm learning — I have questions, but I'm learning, so please keep going.

我正在学习——我有问题，但我正在学习，所以请继续。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

So to me, what's exciting is not the theory; it's always the application.

所以对我来说，令人兴奋的不是理论，而是理论。始终是应用程序。

One of the most exciting applications of artificial intelligence, specifically neural networks and machine learning, is Tesla autopilot.

人工智能（特别是神经网络和机器学习）最令人兴奋的应用之一是特斯拉自动驾驶仪。

So these are systems that are working in the real world.

所以这些是在现实世界中运行的系统。

This isn't an academic exercise.

这不是学术练习。

This is human lives at stake.

这是人的生命受到威胁。

This is safety critical —

这对安全至关重要——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

These are automated vehicles.

这些是自动驾驶车辆。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

Auto.

自动。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Autonomous vehicles.

自动驾驶汽车。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

Semiautonomous.

半自主。

We want to be ...

我们希望成为...

we've gone through wars on these topics —

我们经历过关于这些话题的战争——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Semiautonomous vehicles.

半自动驾驶车辆。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

Semiautonomous.

半自主。

So even though it's called the FSD, full self-driving, it is currently not fully autonomous, meaning human supervision is required.

因此，尽管它被称为 FSD（全自动驾驶），但它目前还不是完全自主的，这意味着需要人工监督。

So human is tasked with overseeing the systems.

因此，人类的任务是监督系统。

In fact, liabilitywise, the human is always responsible.

事实上，就责任而言，人类总是有责任的。

This is a human factor psychology question, which is fascinating.

这是一个人为因素心理学问题，很有趣。

I am fascinated by the whole space, which is a whole other space of human-robot interaction when AI systems and humans work together to accomplish tasks.

我对整个空间很着迷，当人工智能系统和人类共同完成任务时，这是一个完全不同的人机交互空间。

That dance to me is one of the smaller communities, but I think it would be one of the most important open problems once they're solved, is how do humans and robots dance together?

对我来说，这种舞蹈是较小的社区之一，但我认为一旦解决，这将是最重要的开放问题之一，即人类和机器人如何一起跳舞？

To me, semiautonomous driving is one of those spaces.

对我来说，半自动驾驶就是其中之一。

So for Elon, for example, he doesn't see it that way.

例如，对于埃隆来说，他并不这么认为。

He sees semiautonomous driving as a stepping stone towards fully autonomous driving.

他认为半自动驾驶是迈向全自动驾驶的垫脚石。

Like humans and robots can't dance well together; let humans and humans dance and robots and robots dance.

就像人类和机器人不能很好地一起跳舞一样；让人类与人类共舞，让机器人与机器人共舞。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

We need to ...

我们需要...

this is an engineering problem.

这是一个工程问题。

We need to design a perfect robot that solves this problem.

我们需要设计一个完美的机器人来解决这个问题。

To me forever, maybe this is not the case with driving, but the world is going to be full of problems where it's always humans and robots have to interact.

对我来说，也许驾驶的情况并非如此，但世界将充满问题，人类和机器人总是必须互动。

Because I think robots will always be flawed, just like humans are going to be flawed, are flawed, and that's what makes life beautiful, that they're flawed.

因为我认为机器人总是有缺陷的，就像人类也会有缺陷一样，有缺陷，这就是让生活变得美丽的原因，因为它们有缺陷。

That's where learning happens at the edge of your capabilities.

这就是学习发生在你的能力边缘的地方。

So you always have to figure out how can flawed robots and flawed humans interact together such that they, like the sum is bigger than the whole.

因此，你总是必须弄清楚有缺陷的机器人和有缺陷的人类如何相互作用，使得它们的总和大于整体。

As opposed to focusing on just building the perfect robot.

而不是专注于建造完美的机器人。

So that's one of the most exciting applications, I would say, of artificial intelligence, to me, is autonomous driving and semiautonomous driving.

所以我想说，对我来说，人工智能最令人兴奋的应用之一就是自动驾驶和半自动驾驶。

And that's a really good example of machine learning because those systems are constantly learning.

这是机器学习的一个很好的例子，因为这些系统在不断学习。

And there's a process there that maybe I can comment on.

那里有一个流程，也许我可以评论一下。

The ...

该...

Andrej Karpathy, who's the head of autopilot, calls it the data engine.

自动驾驶系统负责人安德烈·卡帕蒂 (Andrej Karpathy) 将其称为数据引擎。

And this process applies for a lot of machine learning, which is you build a system that's pretty good at doing stuff.

这个过程适用于很多机器学习，也就是你构建一个非常擅长做事情的系统。

You send it out into the real world, it starts doing the stuff.

你把它发送到现实世界，它就开始做这些事情。

And then it runs into what are called "edge cases," like failure cases, where it screws up.

然后它就会遇到所谓的“边缘情况”，比如失败情况，就会搞砸。

You know we do this as kids that, you have —

你知道我们小时候就这样做，你有——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

We do this as adults.

我们作为成年人这样做。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

We do this as adults, exactly, but we learn really quickly.

确切地说，我们作为成年人都会这样做，但我们学得很快。

But the whole point, and this is the fascinating thing about driving, is you realize there's millions of edge cases.

但重点是，这就是驾驶的迷人之处，就是你意识到有数百万种边缘情况。

There's just like weird situations that you did not expect.

就像你没有预料到的奇怪情况一样。

And so the data engine process is you collect those edge cases and then you go back to the drawing board and learn from them.

因此，数据引擎的过程是收集这些边缘情况，然后返回绘图板并从中学习。

And so you have to create this data pipeline where all these cars, hundreds of thousands of cars that are driving around and something weird happens.

因此，您必须创建这个数据管道，其中所有这些汽车，数十万辆汽车在行驶，并且发生了一些奇怪的事情。

And so whenever this weird detector fires, it's another important concept, that piece of data goes back to the mothership for the training, for the retraining of the system.

因此，每当这个奇怪的探测器发射时，这是另一个重要的概念，该数据会返回母舰进行训练，用于系统的重新训练。

And through this data engine process, it keeps improving and getting better and better and better and better.

通过这个数据引擎流程，它不断改进，变得越来越好、越来越好。

So basically, you send out a pretty clever AI system out into the world and let it find the edge cases.

所以基本上，你向世界发送一个非常聪明的人工智能系统，让它找到边缘情况。

Let it screw up just enough to figure out where the edge cases are, and then go back and learn from them, and then send out that new version, and keep updating that version.

让它搞砸足以找出边缘情况在哪里，然后返回并从中学习，然后发送该新版本，并继续更新该版本。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Is the updating done by humans?

更新是人为的吗？

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

The annotation is done by humans.

注释是由人类完成的。

The, so you have to, the weird examples come back, the edge cases, and you have to label what actually happened in there.

所以你必须这样做，奇怪的例子、边缘情况又回来了，你必须标记那里实际发生的事情。

There's also some mechanisms for automatic ...

还有一些自动机制...

automatically labeling.

自动贴标。

But mostly, I think you always have to rely on humans to improve, to understand what's happening in the weird cases.

但最重要的是，我认为你总是必须依靠人类来改进，以了解奇怪情况下发生的情况。

And then there's a lot of debate, and that's the other thing, what is artificial intelligence?

然后有很多争论，那就是另一件事，什么是人工智能？

Which is a bunch of smart people having very different opinions about what is intelligence.

这是一群聪明人对什么是智力有截然不同的看法。

So AI is basically a community of people who don't agree on anything.

所以人工智能基本上是一个在任何事情上都没有达成共识的人组成的社区。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

That seems to be the case.

情况似乎确实如此。

First of all, this is a beautiful description of terms that I've heard many times among my colleagues at Stanford, at meetings in the outside world.

首先，这是我在斯坦福大学的同事中、在外界的会议上多次听到的对术语的美丽描述。

And there's so many fascinating things.

还有很多令人着迷的事情。

I have so many questions, but I do want to ask one question about the culture of AI.

我有很多问题，但我确实想问一个关于人工智能文化的问题。

Because it does seem to be a community where, at least as an outsider, where it seems like there's very little consensus about what the terms and the operational definitions even mean.

因为它似乎确实是一个社区，至少作为局外人，似乎对于术语和操作定义的含义几乎没有达成共识。

And there seems to be a lot of splitting happening now of not just supervised and unsupervised learning but these sort of intermediate conditions where machines are autonomous but then go back for more instruction.

现在似乎发生了很多分裂，不仅是监督学习和无监督学习，而且是机器自治但随后返回更多指令的中间条件。

Like kids go home from college during the summer and get a little — mom still feeds them, then eventually they leave the nest, kind of thing.

就像孩子们在夏天从大学回家并得到一点东西一样——妈妈仍然喂他们，然后最终他们离开巢穴，类似的事情。

Is there something in particular about engineers or about people in this realm of engineering that you think lends itself to disagreement?

您认为工程师或工程领域的人们有什么特别之处会引起分歧吗？

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

Yeah, I think so — first of all, the more specific you get the less disagreement there is.

是的，我想是的——首先，你得到的越具体，分歧就越少。

So there's a lot of disagreement about what is artificial intelligence, but there's less disagreement about what is machine learning.

因此，对于什么是人工智能存在很多分歧，但对于什么是机器学习，分歧则较少。

And even less when you talk about active learning or machine teaching or self-supervised learning.

当你谈论主动学习、机器教学或自我监督学习时，就更少了。

And then when you get into like NLP language models or transformers, when you get into specific neural network architectures, there's less and less and less disagreement about those terms.

然后，当您进入 NLP 语言模型或 Transformer 等领域时，当您进入特定的神经网络架构时，对这些术语的分歧会越来越少。

So you might be hearing the disagreement from the high-level terms.

因此，您可能会听到高层术语的不同意见。

And that has to do with the fact that engineering, especially when you're talking about intelligence systems, is a little bit of an art and a science.

这与工程，尤其是当你谈论智能系统时，是一门艺术和一门科学这一事实有关。

So the art part is the thing that creates disagreements because then you start having disagreements about how easy or difficult a particular problem is.

所以艺术部分是产生分歧的地方，因为然后你开始对某个特定问题的简单或困难产生分歧。

For example, a lot of people disagreed with Elon, how difficult the problem of autonomous driving is, and so ...

比如很多人不同意埃隆的观点，自动驾驶的问题有多难，等等……

but nobody knows.

但没人知道。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

So there's a lot of disagreement about what are the limits of these techniques.

因此，对于这些技术的局限性存在很多分歧。

And through that, the terminology also contains within it the disagreements.

因此，术语中也包含了分歧。

But overall, I think it's also a young science that also has to do with that.

但总的来说，我认为这也是一门年轻的科学，也与此有关。

So like, it's not just engineering; it's that artificial intelligence truly as a large-scale discipline where it's thousands, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands people working on it, huge amounts of money being made.

所以，这不仅仅是工程；也是。人工智能确实是一个大规模的学科，有成千上万的人在研究它，并赚取了大量的钱。

That's a very recent thing.

这是最近发生的事情。

So we're trying to figure out those terms.

所以我们正在努力弄清楚这些术语。

And of course, there's egos and personalities and a lot of fame to be made.

当然，还有自负、个性和很多名声。

The term deep learning, for example, neural networks have been around for many, many decades, since the sixties.

例如，深度学习、神经网络等术语自 20 世纪 60 年代以来已经存在了数十年。

You can argue since the forties.

从四十年代起你就可以争论。

So there was a rebranding of neural networks into the word deep learning, term deep learning, that was part of the reinvigoration of the field.

因此，神经网络被重新命名为深度学习这个词，这是该领域重振的一部分。

But it's really the same exact thing.

但这确实是一模一样的事情。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I didn't know that.

我不知道。

I mean, I grew up in the age of neuroscience when neural networks were discussed.

我的意思是，我是在神经科学时代长大的，当时人们正在讨论神经网络。

Computational neuroscience and theoretical neuroscience, they had their own journals.

计算神经科学和理论神经科学，他们有自己的期刊。

It wasn't actually taken terribly seriously by experimentalists until a few years ago.

直到几年前，实验学家才真正认真对待它。

I would say about five to seven years ago.

我想说大约五到七年前。

Excellent theoretical neuroscientists like Larry Abbott and other ...

像拉里·阿博特（Larry Abbott）等优秀的理论神经科学家......

I have colleagues, certainly at Stanford as well, that people started paying attention to computational methods.

我的同事们，当然也包括斯坦福大学的同事们，认为人们开始关注计算方法。

But these terms: neural networks, computational methods, I actually didn't know that neural network works in deep learning, where those have now become kind of synonymous.

但这些术语：神经网络、计算方法，我实际上不知道神经网络在深度学习中起作用，而这些现在已经成为同义词。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

No, they were always ...

不，他们一直都是……

well, no, they're always the same thing.

好吧，不，它们总是一样的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Interesting.

有趣。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

It was, so —

原来如此——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I'm a neuroscientist and I didn't know that.

我是一名神经科学家，但我不知道这一点。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

So well, because networks probably means something else in neuroscience.

好吧，因为网络在神经科学中可能意味着其他东西。

Not something else but a little different flavor depending on the field.

不是别的，而是根据领域的不同，味道略有不同。

And that's fascinating too, because neuroscience and AI people have started working together and dancing a lot more in the recent, I would say probably, decade.

这也很有趣，因为神经科学和人工智能人们在最近（我想说可能是）十年里开始合作并进行了更多的合作。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Oh, machines are going into the brain.

哦，机器正在进入大脑。

I have a couple questions, but one thing that I'm sort of fixated on that I find incredibly interesting is this example you gave of playing a game with a mutated version of yourself as a competitor.

我有几个问题，但我觉得非常有趣的一件事是你举的这个例子，你用变异版本的你自己作为竞争对手玩游戏。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I find that incredibly interesting as a parallel or a mirror for what happens when we try and learn as humans.

我发现这非常有趣，就像我们作为人类尝试学习时所发生的事情的平行或镜像。

Which is we generate repetitions of whatever it is we're trying to learn, and we make errors; occasionally we succeed.

也就是说，我们会重复我们试图学习的内容，并且会犯错误；有时我们会成功。

In a simple example, for instance, of trying to throw bull's-eyes on a dartboard: I'm going to have errors, errors, errors.

举个简单的例子，例如，试图将靶心投向飞镖：我会犯错误、错误、错误。

I'll probably miss the dartboard and maybe occasionally hit a bull's-eye.

我可能会错过飞镖靶，也可能偶尔会击中靶心。

And I don't know exactly what I just did.

我也不知道我刚刚做了什么。

But then let's say I was playing darts against a version of myself where I was wearing a visual prism, like my visual — I had a visual defect.

但是，假设我正在与自己的另一个版本玩飞镖，我戴着视觉棱镜，就像我的视觉一样——我有视觉缺陷。

You learn certain things in that mode as well.

您也可以在该模式中学习某些东西。

You're saying that a machine can sort of mutate itself.

你是说机器可以自我变异。

Does the mutation always cause a deficiency that it needs to overcome?

突变是否总是会导致需要克服的缺陷？

Because mutations in biology sometimes give us superpowers, right?

因为生物学的突变有时会给我们超能力，对吗？

Occasionally, you'll get somebody who has better than 20/20 vision, and they can see better than 99.9% of people out there.

有时，您会遇到视力高于 20/20 的人，他们的视力比 99.9% 的人都好。

So when you talk about a machine playing a game against a mutated version of itself, is the mutation always what we call a negative mutation or an adaptive or a maladaptive mutation?

因此，当你谈论一台机器与自身突变版本玩游戏时，这种突变总是我们所说的负突变、适应性突变或适应不良突变吗？

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

No, you don't know until you get ...

不，你不知道，直到你...

so you mutate first and then figure out, and they compete against each other.

所以你先变异，然后弄清楚，然后它们互相竞争。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So you're evolving.

所以你正在进化。

You're ...

你是...

the machine gets to evolve itself in real time.

机器可以实时自我进化。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

And I think of it, which would be exciting if you could actually do with humans.

我想，如果你真的能用人类来做这件事，那就太令人兴奋了。

It's not just, so usually you freeze a version of the system.

这不仅仅是，所以通常你会冻结系统的一个版本。

So really, you take an Andrew of yesterday, and you make 10 clones of them.

所以说真的，你拿了昨天的安德鲁，然后克隆了他们 10 个。

And then maybe you mutate, maybe not, and then you do a bunch of competitions of the Andrew of today, like you fight to the death and who wins last?

然后也许你会变异，也许不会，然后你会进行一系列今天的安德鲁的竞争，就像你战斗到死，谁最后获胜？

So I love that idea of like creating a bunch of clones of myself from like, from each of the day for the past year.

所以我喜欢这个想法，就像从过去一年的每一天中创造出一堆我自己的克隆体。

And just seeing who's going to be better at podcasting or science or picking up chicks at a bar, or I don't know, or competing in jujitsu.

只是看看谁会在播客或科学或在酒吧泡妞方面表现更好，或者我不知道，或者在柔术比赛中表现更好。

That's one way to do it.

这是一种方法。

I mean, a lot of Lex's would have to die for that process, but that's essentially what happens is in reinforcement learning through the self-play mechanisms.

我的意思是，很多 Lex 都必须在这个过程中死去，但这本质上是通过自我对弈机制进行强化学习所发生的事情。

It's a graveyard of systems that didn't do that well.

这是一个表现不佳的系统的墓地。

And the surviving, the good ones survive.

幸存下来的，好人幸存下来。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Do you think that, I mean, Darwin's theory of evolution might have worked in some sense in this way?

我的意思是，你认为达尔文的进化论在某种意义上可能以这种方式发挥作用吗？

But at the population level, I mean, you get a bunch of birds with different shape beaks and some birds have the shape beak that allows them to get the seeds.

但在人口层面，我的意思是，你会得到一群具有不同形状喙的鸟，有些鸟的喙形状可以让它们获取种子。

I mean, it's a trivial, trivial, simple example of Darwinian evolution, but I think it's correct if not, even though it's not exhaustive.

我的意思是，这是达尔文进化论的一个微不足道、微不足道、简单的例子，但我认为即使不是，它也是正确的，尽管它并不详尽。

Is that what you're referring to?

你指的是这个吗？

You, essentially that, normally this is done between members of a different species.

你，本质上来说，通常这是在不同物种的成员之间完成的。

Lots of different members of species have different traits and some get selected for, but you could actually create multiple versions of yourself with different traits.

许多不同的物种成员都有不同的特征，有些会被选中，但你实际上可以创建具有不同特征的多个版本的自己。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

So with, I should probably have said this, but perhaps it's implied with machine learning or reinforcement learning through these processes.

因此，我可能应该这么说，但也许它是通过这些过程进行机器学习或强化学习所暗示的。

One of the big requirements is to have an objective function, a loss function, a utility function — those are all different terms for the same thing — is there's an equation that says what's good, and then you're trying to optimize that equation.

其中一个重要的要求是有一个目标函数、一个损失函数、一个效用函数——这些都是同一件事的不同术语——是否有一个方程可以说明什么是好的，然后你尝试优化该方程。

So there's a clear goal for these system.

所以这些系统有一个明确的目标。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Because it's a game, like with chess; there's a goal.

因为它是一种游戏，就像国际象棋一样；有一个目标。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

But for anything, anything you want machine learning to solve, there needs to be an objective function.

但对于任何事情，任何你想要机器学习解决的问题，都需要有一个目标函数。

And machine learning is usually called loss function, that you're optimizing.

机器学习通常称为损失函数，您正在优化它。

The interesting thing about evolution, complicated of course, but the goal also seems to be evolving.

进化的有趣之处在于，当然很复杂，但目标似乎也在进化。

Like it's, I guess adaptation to the environment is the goal, but it's unclear you can convert that.

就像它一样，我想适应环境是目标，但目前还不清楚你可以转换它。

Oh, is it, it's like survival of the fittest.

哦，是吗，就像物竞天择，适者生存。

It's unclear what the fittest is.

目前还不清楚什么是最适合的。

In machine learning, the starting point, and this is like what human ingenuity provides, is that fitness function of what's good and what's bad, which it lets you know which of the systems is going to win.

在机器学习中，起点，就像人类的聪明才智所提供的那样，是好的和坏的适应函数，它让你知道哪个系统将获胜。

So you need to have an equation like that.

所以你需要有一个这样的方程。

One of the fascinating things about humans is we figure out objective functions for ourselves.

人类最迷人的事情之一就是我们可以为自己找出目标函数。

Like we are ...

就像我们...

it's the meaning of life.

这就是生命的意义。

Like why the hell are we here?

就像我们到底为什么在这里？

And a machine currently has to have a hard-coded statement about why.

目前机器必须有一个关于原因的硬编码声明。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It has to have a meaning of artificial intelligence-based life.

它必须具有基于人工智能的生活的意义。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

It can't.

不可以。

So like, there's a lot of interesting explorations about that function being more about curiosity, about learning new things and all that kind of stuff.

所以，关于这个功能有很多有趣的探索，更多的是关于好奇心，关于学习新事物和所有类似的东西。

But it's still hard coded.

但它仍然是硬编码的。

If you want a machine to be able to be good at stuff, it has to be given very clear statements of what good at stuff means.

如果你想让一台机器能够擅长做事，就必须非常清楚地说明擅长做事的含义。

That's one of the challenges of artificial intelligence is you have to formalize the ...

这是人工智能的挑战之一，你必须将......

in order to solve a problem, you have to formalize it, and you have to provide both like the full sensory information.

为了解决问题，你必须将其形式化，并且必须提供两者，例如完整的感官信息。

You have to be very clear about what is the data that's being collected.

您必须非常清楚正在收集的数据是什么。

And you have to also be clear about the objective function.

而且你还必须清楚目标函数。

What is the goal that you're trying to reach?

您想要达到的目标是什么？

And that's a very difficult thing for artificial intelligence.

这对于人工智能来说是一件非常困难的事情。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I love that you mentioned curiosity.

我喜欢你提到好奇心。

I'm sure this definition falls short in many ways, but I define curiosity as a strong interest in knowing something but without an attachment to the outcome.

我确信这个定义在很多方面都有不足，但我将好奇心定义为对了解某些事物的强烈兴趣，但不执着于结果。

It's not, it could be a random search, but there's not really an emotional attachment.

不是的，可能是随机搜索，但并没有真正的情感依恋。

It's really just a desire to discover and unveil what's there without hoping it's a gold coin under a rock.

这实际上只是一种发现和揭示那里的东西的愿望，而不希望它是岩石下的金币。

You're just looking under rocks.

你只是在岩石下面寻找。

Is that more or less how within machine learning, it sounds like there are elements of reward — prediction and rewards.

在机器学习中，这或多或少听起来像是奖励的元素——预测和奖励。

The machine has to know when it's done the right thing.

机器必须知道它何时做了正确的事情。

So can you make machines that are curious, or are the sorts of machines that you are describing curious by design?

那么你能制造出好奇的机器吗？或者你所描述的那种机器在设计上就是好奇的吗？

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

Yeah, curiosity is the kind of symptom, not the goal.

是的，好奇心只是一种症状，而不是目标。

So what happens is, one of the big tradeoffs in reinforcement learning is this exploration versus exploitation.

因此，强化学习中最大的权衡之一就是探索与利用。

So when you know very little, it pays off to explore a lot, even suboptimal, like even trajectories that seem like they're not going to lead anywhere — that's called exploration.

因此，当你知道的很少时，探索很多东西是有回报的，即使是次优的，甚至是看起来不会通向任何地方的轨迹——这就是所谓的探索。

The smarter and smarter and smarter you get, the more emphasis you put on exploitation, meaning you take the best solution, you take the best path.

你变得越来越聪明，你就越重视剥削，这意味着你采取了最好的解决方案，你采取了最好的道路。

Now through that process, the exploration can look like curiosity by us humans, but it's really just trying to get out of the local optimal.

现在，通过这个过程，探索看起来像是我们人类的好奇心，但它实际上只是试图摆脱局部最优。

The thing that's already discovered, it's, from an AI perspective, it's always looking to optimize the objective function.

已经发现的事情是，从人工智能的角度来看，它总是寻求优化目标函数。

It derives ...

它派生...

we could talk about this a lot more.

我们可以更多地讨论这个问题。

But in terms of the tools of machine learning today, it derives no pleasure from just the curiosity of like, I don't know, discovery that —

但就当今的机器学习工具而言，它并不能仅仅从好奇心中获得乐趣，我不知道，发现——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So there's no dopamine for —

所以没有多巴胺——

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

There's no dopamine.

没有多巴胺。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

There's no reward system chemical or, I guess, electronic reward system.

没有化学奖励系统，我猜也没有电子奖励系统。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

That said, if you look at machine learning literature and reinforcement learning literature, they will use, like, deep mind.

也就是说，如果你看一下机器学习文献和强化学习文献，他们会使用深度思维。

We'll use terms like dopamine.

我们将使用多巴胺等术语。

We're constantly trying to use the human brain to inspire totally new solutions to these problems.

我们不断尝试利用人脑来激发解决这些问题的全新解决方案。

So they'll think like, how does dopamine function in the human brain?

所以他们会想，多巴胺在人脑中如何发挥作用？

And how can that lead to more interesting ways to discover optimal solutions?

这如何能带来更有趣的方法来发现最佳解决方案？

But ultimately, currently, there has to be a formal objective function.

但最终，目前必须有一个正式的目标函数。

Now you could argue that humans also has a set of objective functions we try to optimize.

现在你可能会说人类也有一组我们试图优化的目标函数。

We're just not able to introspect them.

我们只是无法反省他们。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah, we don't ...

是的，我们不...

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

We're just not able to introspect them.

我们只是无法反省他们。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah, we don't actually know what we're looking for and seeking and doing.

是的，我们实际上并不知道我们在寻找什么、在寻找什么、在做什么。

PART 1 OF 6 ENDS Lex Fridman:

第 1 部分（共 6 部分）结束 Lex Fridman：

Well.

好吧。

Lisa Feldman Barrett, who you've spoken with Lisa on Instagram, I hope ...

丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特 (Lisa Feldman Barrett)，你曾在 Instagram 上与丽莎交谈过，我希望……

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I met her through you, yeah.

我通过你认识了她，是的。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

Yeah.

是的。

I hope you actually have her on this podcast.

我希望你真的让她加入这个播客。

That'd be fantastic.

那太棒了。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

She's terrific.

她太棒了。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

So she has a very ...

所以她有一个非常...

it has to do with homeostasis, that basically there's a very dumb objective function that the brain is trying to optimize to keep body temperature the same.

它与体内平衡有关，基本上有一个非常愚蠢的目标函数，大脑试图优化它以保持体温相同。

There's a very dumb kind of optimization function happening, and then what we humans do with our fancy consciousness and cognitive abilities is we tell stories to ourselves so we can have nice podcasts but really it's the brain trying to maintain just healthy state, I guess.

有一种非常愚蠢的优化功能正在发生，然后我们人类用我们奇特的意识和认知能力所做的就是我们给自己讲故事，这样我们就可以有很好的播客，但我想，实际上是大脑试图保持健康状态。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

That's fascinating.

这很有趣。

I also see the human brain, and I hope artificial intelligence systems, as not just systems that solve problems or optimize a goal, but are also storytellers.

我也看到了人类的大脑，我希望人工智能系统不仅仅是解决问题或优化目标的系统，而且还是讲故事的人。

I think there's a power to telling stories.

我认为讲故事有一种力量。

We tell stories to each other.

我们互相讲故事。

That's what communication is.

这就是沟通。

Like when you're alone, that's when you solve problems.

就像当你独自一人时，那就是你解决问题的时候。

That's when it makes sense to talk about solving problems.

这时候谈论解决问题就有意义了。

But when you're a community, the capability to communicate, tell stories, share ideas in such a way that those ideas are stable over a long period of time, that's being a charismatic storyteller.

但当你是一个社区时，有能力沟通、讲故事、分享想法，并让这些想法在很长一段时间内保持稳定，那就是成为一个有魅力的讲故事的人。

And I think both humans are very good at this — arguably, I would argue that's why we are who we are, is we're great storytellers — and then AI, I hope, will also become that.

我认为人类都非常擅长这一点——可以说，我认为这就是我们之所以成为现在这样的人的原因，我们是伟大的讲故事的人——然后我希望人工智能也能成为这样的人。

So it's not just about being able to solve problems with a clear objective function.

因此，这不仅仅是能够以明确的目标函数解决问题。

It's afterwards be able to tell a way better ...

事后才能告诉更好的方法......

make up a way better story about why you did something or why you failed.

编一个更好的故事来说明你为什么做某事或为什么失败。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So you think that robots and/or machines of some sort are going to start telling humans stories?

所以你认为机器人和/或某种机器将开始讲述人类故事？

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

Well, definitely ...

嗯，绝对...

so the technical field for that is called "explainable AI," explainable artificial intelligence, is trying to figure out how you get the AI system to explain to us humans why the hell it failed or why it's succeeded, or ...

因此，这个技术领域被称为“可解释的人工智能”，可解释的人工智能，正在试图弄清楚如何让人工智能系统向我们人类解释为什么它失败或为什么成功，或者......

there's a lot of different versions of this ...

这个有很多不同的版本...

or to visualize how it understands the world.

或者想象它如何理解世界。

That's a really difficult problem, especially with neural networks that are famously opaque, that we don't understand in many cases why a particular neural network does what it does so well.

这是一个非常困难的问题，特别是对于以不透明着称的神经网络，我们在很多情况下不明白为什么特定的神经网络会做得这么好。

And to try to figure out where it's going to fail, that requires the AI to explain itself.

为了弄清楚它会在哪里失败，这需要人工智能来解释自己。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

There's a huge amount of money in this, especially from government funding and so on, because if you want to deploy AI systems in the real world, we humans at least want to ask it a question, like, "Why the hell did you do that?" Like in a dark way, why did you just kill that person?

这其中涉及大量资金，特别是来自政府资助等，因为如果你想在现实世界中部署人工智能系统，我们人类至少要问它一个问题，比如“你到底为什么这么做？”就像黑暗的方式一样，你为什么要杀掉那个人？

If a car ran over a person, we want to understand why that happened.

如果一辆汽车碾压了一个人，我们想了解为什么会发生这种情况。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

And now again, we're sometimes very unfair to AI systems because humans can often not explain why very well.

现在，我们有时对人工智能系统非常不公平，因为人类通常无法很好地解释原因。

But that's the field of explainable AI that's very ...

但这是可解释的人工智能领域，非常......

people are very interested in because the more and more we rely on AI systems ...

人们非常感兴趣，因为我们越来越依赖人工智能系统......

like the Twitter recommender system, that AI algorithm, I would say impacting elections, perhaps starting wars or at least military conflict.

就像推特推荐系统一样，我想说人工智能算法会影响选举，也许会引发战争或至少是军事冲突。

That algorithm, we want to ask that algorithm, "First of all, do you know what the hell you're doing?

那个算法，我们想问那个算法，“首先，你知道你到底在做什么吗？

Do you understand the society-level effects you're having, and can you explain the possible other trajectories?" We would have that kind of conversation with a human.

你了解你所产生的社会层面的影响吗？你能解释一下可能的其他轨迹吗？”我们会与人进行这样的对话。

We want to be able to do that with an AI.

我们希望能够通过人工智能来做到这一点。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

And on my own personal level, I think it would be nice to talk to AI systems for stupid stuff, like robots, when they fail to ...

就我个人而言，我认为当人工智能系统无法解决诸如机器人之类的愚蠢问题时，与它们进行对话会很好。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Why'd you fall down the stairs?

你为什么从楼梯上摔下来？

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

Yeah, but not an engineering question, but almost like an endearing question.

是的，但这不是一个工程问题，但几乎就像一个可爱的问题。

Like I'm looking for if I fell and you and I were hanging out, I don't think you need an explanation exactly what were the dynamics ...

就像我正在寻找我是否摔倒而你和我正在闲逛一样，我认为你不需要解释到底是什么动态......

what was the underactuated system problem here?

这里的欠驱动系统问题是什么？

What was the texture of the floor or so on, or what was the ...

地板的质地是什么，或者什么是……

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

No, I want to know what you're thinking.

不，我想知道你在想什么。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

That, or you might joke about, "You're drunk again, go home," or something.

那个，或者你可能会开玩笑说，“你又喝醉了，回家吧”之类的。

There could be humor in it.

其中可能有幽默感。

That's an opportunity.

这是一个机会。

Storytelling isn't just explanation of what happened.

讲故事不仅仅是解释发生的事情。

It's something that makes people laugh, makes people fall in love, makes people dream and understand things in a way that poetry makes people understand things as opposed to a rigorous log of where every sensor was, where every actuator was.

它让人发笑，让人坠入爱河，让人梦想，并以诗歌让人理解事物的方式理解事物，而不是严格记录每个传感器、每个执行器的位置。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I mean, I find this incredible because one of the hallmarks of severe autism spectrum disorders is a report of experience from the autistic person that is very much a catalog of action steps.

我的意思是，我觉得这令人难以置信，因为严重自闭症谱系障碍的标志之一是自闭症患者的经验报告，这在很大程度上是行动步骤的目录。

It's like, how do you feel today?

就像，你今天感觉怎么样？

And they'll say, "Well, I got up and I did this and then I did this and I did this." And it's not at all the way that a person with ...

他们会说：“好吧，我站起来做了这个，然后我做了这个，我做了这个。”这根本不是一个人...

who doesn't have autism spectrum disorder would respond.

没有自闭症谱系障碍的人会做出反应。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And the way you describe these machines has so much humanism, or so much of a human and biological element, but I realize that we are talking about machines.

你描述这些机器的方式有很多人文主义，或者说有很多人类和生物元素，但我意识到我们正在谈论机器。

I want to make sure that I understand.

我想确保我理解。

If there's a distinction between a machine that learns, a machine with artificial intelligence, and a robot, at what point does a machine become a robot?

如果学习机器、人工智能机器和机器人之间存在区别，那么机器什么时候会变成机器人？

So if I have a ballpoint pen, I'm assuming I wouldn't call that a robot.

因此，如果我有一支圆珠笔，我想我不会称其为机器人。

But if my ballpoint pen can come to me when I move to the opposite side of the table, if it's moved by whatever mechanism, at that point, does it become a robot?

但是，如果当我移动到桌子的另一侧时，我的圆珠笔可以来到我身边，如果它通过任何机制移动，那么它会变成机器人吗？

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

Okay, there's a million ways to explore this question.

好吧，有一百万种方法可以探索这个问题。

It's a fascinating one.

这是一件令人着迷的事。

So first of all, there's a question of what is life?

首先，有一个问题：什么是生命？

How do you know something is a living form or not?

你怎么知道某物是否是有生命的形式？

And it's similar to the question of when does ...

这类似于什么时候......的问题

maybe a cold computational system becomes a ...

也许一个冰冷的计算系统会变成......

we're already loading these words with a lot of meaning, robot and machine.

我们已经给这些词赋予了很多含义，机器人和机器。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

But so one, I think movement is important.

但我认为运动很重要。

But that's kind of a boring idea that a robot is just a machine that's able to act in the world.

但认为机器人只是一台能够在世界上行动的机器，这是一个无聊的想法。

So one, artificial intelligence could be both just the thinking thing, which I think is what machine learning is, and also the acting thing, which is what we usually think about robots.

因此，人工智能既可以是思考的东西，我认为这就是机器学习，也可以是行动的东西，这就是我们通常对机器人的看法。

So robots are the things that have a perception system that's able to take in the world, however you define the world — is able to think and learn and do whatever the hell it does inside and then act on the world.

因此，机器人是一种拥有感知系统的东西，无论你如何定义世界，它都能感知世界——能够思考、学习、做它在内部所做的一切，然后对世界采取行动。

So that's the difference between maybe an AI system or a machine and a robot.

这可能就是人工智能系统或机器和机器人之间的区别。

It's something that's able ...

这是一种能够...

a robot is something that's able to perceive the world and act in the world.

机器人是能够感知世界并在世界上行动的东西。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So it could be through language or sound, or it could be through movement or both?

那么它可以通过语言或声音，或者可以通过动作或两者兼而有之？

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

Yeah, I think it could also be in the digital space, as long as there's an aspect of entity that's inside the machine and a world that's outside the machine and there's a sense in which the machine is sensing that world and acting in it.

是的，我认为它也可能在数字空间中，只要存在机器内部实体的一个方面和机器外部的世界，并且存在机器正在感知该世界并在其中采取行动的感觉。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So it could ...

所以它可以...

for instance, there could be a version of a robot, according to the definition that I think you're providing, where the robot ...

例如，根据我认为您提供的定义，可能有一个机器人版本，其中机器人......

where I go to sleep at night and this robot goes and forages for information that it thinks I want to see loaded onto my desktop in the morning.

当我晚上睡觉时，这个机器人会去寻找它认为我希望在早上加载到我的桌面上的信息。

There was no movement of that machine, there was no language, but it essentially has movement in cyberspace.

那台机器没有运动，没有语言，但它本质上在网络空间中有运动。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

Yeah, there's a distinction that I think is important in that there's an element of it being an entity, whether it's in the digital or the physical space.

是的，我认为有一个区别很重要，因为它有一个实体元素，无论是在数字空间还是物理空间。

So when you have something like Alexa in your home, most of the speech recognition, most of what Alexa's doing is constantly being sent back to the mothership.

因此，当你家里有像 Alexa 这样的东西时，大部分语音识别、Alexa 所做的大部分事情都会不断地被发送回母舰。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

When Alexa is there on its own, that's to me a robot, when it's there interacting with the world.

当 Alexa 独自存在时，对我来说它就是一个机器人，当它在那里与世界互动时。

When it's simply a finger of the main mothership, then Alexa's not a robot.

当它只是主母舰的一根手指时，那么 Alexa 就不是机器人了。

Then it's just an interaction device.

那么它只是一个交互设备。

That then maybe the main Amazon Alexa AI — big, big system — is the robot.

那么，亚马逊 Alexa AI 的主要部分（非常非常大的系统）可能就是机器人。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

So that's important because there's some element to us humans, I think, where we want there to be an entity, whether in the digital or the physical space.

所以这很重要，因为我认为，我们人类有一些元素，我们希望有一个实体，无论是在数字空间还是物理空间。

That's where ideas of consciousness come in and all those kinds of things that we project our understanding what it means to be a being.

这就是意识观念以及我们投射出的所有这些东西，我们理解作为一个存在意味着什么。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

And so to take that further, when does a machine become a robot?

更进一步来说，机器什么时候会变成机器人？

I think there's a special moment.

我认为有一个特别的时刻。

There's a special moment in a person's life, in a robot's life, where it surprises you.

在人的生命中，在机器人的生命中，有一个特别的时刻，它会让你感到惊讶。

I think surprise is a really powerful thing where you know how the thing works, and yet it surprises you.

我认为惊喜是一件非常强大的事情，你知道它是如何运作的，但它却让你感到惊讶。

That, that's a magical moment for us humans.

这对我们人类来说是一个神奇的时刻。

So whether it's a chess-playing program that does something that you haven't seen before that makes people smile, like, huh.

所以，无论是一个下棋程序，它会做一些你以前从未见过的事情，让人们微笑，比如，呵呵。

Those moments happen with AlphaZero, for the first time in chess playing, where grandmasters were really surprised by a move.

这些时刻发生在 AlphaZero 上，这是国际象棋比赛中的第一次，大师们对一步棋感到非常惊讶。

They didn't understand the move, and then they studied and studied, and then they understood it.

他们不懂这一招，然后研究啊研究，然后就明白了。

But that moment of surprise, that's for grandmasters in chess.

但那惊喜的时刻，是属于国际象棋大师的。

I find that moment of surprise really powerful, really magical in just everyday life.

我发现在日常生活中，惊喜的时刻真的很强大，很神奇。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Because it supersedes the human brain in that moment.

因为它在那一刻取代了人脑。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

So not supersedes like outperforms, but surprises you in a positive sense.

因此，并不是像表现出色那样取代，而是从积极的意义上给你带来惊喜。

"I didn't think you could do that.

“我没想到你能做到这一点。

I didn't think that you had that in you." And I think that moment is a big transition for a robot from a moment of being a servant that accomplishes a particular task with some level of accuracy, with some rate of failure, to an entity, a being that's struggling just like you are in this world.

我没想到你还有这个本事。”我认为，对于机器人来说，这一刻是一个巨大的转变，从一个以一定程度的准确性、一定的失败率完成特定任务的仆人，到一个实体，一个像你在这个世界上一样挣扎的存在。

And that's a really important moment that ...

那是一个非常重要的时刻......

I think you're not going to find many people in the AI community that talk like I just did.

我认为在人工智能社区中你不会找到很多像我刚才那样说话的人。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

I'm not speaking like some philosopher or some hippie.

我不像某些哲学家或嬉皮士那样说话。

I'm speaking from purely engineering perspective.

我是从纯粹的工程角度来讲的。

I think it's really important for robots to become entities and explore that as a real engineering problem, as opposed to ...

我认为机器人成为实体并作为一个真正的工程问题来探索它非常重要，而不是......

everybody treats robots in the robotics community ...

机器人社区中的每个人都对待机器人......

they don't even call them a he or she; they don't give them ...

他们甚至不称他们为他或她；他们不给他们...

try to avoid giving them names.

尽量避免给他们起名字。

They really want to see it like a system, like a servant.

他们真的希望将其视为一个系统，一个仆人。

They see it as a servant trying to accomplish a task.

他们将其视为试图完成任务的仆人。

To me, and I don't think I'm just romanticizing the notion, I think it's a being.

对我来说，我不认为我只是把这个概念浪漫化，我认为它是一个存在。

It's currently perhaps a dumb being, but in the long arc of history, humans are pretty dumb beings too.

目前它可能是一个愚蠢的存在，但在漫长的历史中，人类也是相当愚蠢的存在。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I would agree with that statement.

我同意这个说法。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

So I tend to really want to explore this treating robots really as entities.

所以我真的很想探索如何将机器人真正视为实体。

So anthropomorphization, which is the act of looking at an inanimate object and projecting onto it lifelike features, I think robotics generally sees that as a negative.

因此，拟人化，即观察无生命的物体并将其栩栩如生的特征投射到其上的行为，我认为机器人通常将其视为负面的。

I see it as a superpower.

我将其视为一种超级大国。

Like that — we need to use that.

就像这样——我们需要使用它。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Well, I'm struck by how that really grabs onto the relationship between human and machine or human and robot.

嗯，我对它如何真正抓住人与机器或人与机器人之间的关系感到震惊。

So the simple question is, and I think you've already told us the answer, but does interacting with a robot change you?

所以简单的问题是，我想你已经告诉我们答案了，但是与机器人互动会改变你吗？

Does it ...

难道...

in other words, do we develop relationships to robots?

换句话说，我们是否与机器人建立了关系？

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

Yeah, I definitely think so.

是的，我绝对这么认为。

I think the moment you see a robot or AI systems as more than just servants, but entities, they begin to change just like good friends do, just like relationships, just like other humans.

我认为，当你看到机器人或人工智能系统不仅仅是仆人，而是实体时，它们就会像好朋友一样开始改变，就像人际关系一样，就像其他人类一样。

I think for that, you have to have certain aspects of that interaction, like the robot's ability to say no, to have its own sense of identity, to have its own set of goals that's not constantly serving you but instead trying to understand the world and do that dance of understanding through communication with you.

我认为为此，你必须具备这种互动的某些方面，比如机器人说不的能力，有自己的认同感，有自己的一套目标，这些目标不会一直为你服务，而是试图了解世界，并通过与你的交流来理解世界。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

So I definitely think there's a ...

所以我绝对认为有一个...

I mean, I have a lot of thoughts about this, as you know, and that's at the core of my lifelong dream, actually, of what I want to do, which is I believe that most people have a notion of loneliness in them that we haven't discovered— that we haven't explored, I should say.

我的意思是，正如你所知，我对此有很多想法，这实际上是我一生梦想的核心，也是我想做的事情的核心，我相信大多数人都有一种我们还没有发现的孤独感——我应该说，我们还没有探索过。

And I see AI systems as helping us explore that so that we can become better humans, better people towards each other.

我认为人工智能系统正在帮助我们探索这一点，以便我们能够成为更好的人，更好地对待彼此。

So I think that connection between human and AI, human and robot, is not only possible, but will help us understand ourselves in ways that are several orders of magnitude deeper than we ever could have imagined.

因此，我认为人类与人工智能、人类与机器人之间的联系不仅是可能的，而且将帮助我们以比我们想象的更深几个数量级的方式了解自己。

I tend to believe that ...

我倾向于相信...

well, I have very wild levels of belief in terms of how impactful that would be.

好吧，我非常相信这会产生多大的影响力。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So when I think about human relationships, I don't always break them down into variables, but we could explore a few of those variables and see how they map to human-robot relationships.

因此，当我思考人际关系时，我并不总是将它们分解为变量，但我们可以探索其中一些变量，看看它们如何映射到人机关系。

One is just time.

一是时间。

If you spend zero time with another person at all in cyberspace or on the phone or in person, you essentially have no relationship to them.

如果你在网络空间、电话或面对面中与另一个人相处的时间为零，那么你基本上与他们没有任何关系。

If you spend a lot of time, you have a relationship.

如果你花了很多时间，你就有了一段关系。

This is obvious.

这是显而易见的。

But I guess one variable would be time, how much time you spend with the other entity, robot or human.

但我想一个变量是时间，你花多少时间与另一个实体（机器人或人类）相处。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

The other would be wins and successes.

另一个是胜利和成功。

You enjoy successes together.

你们一起享受成功。

I'll give an absolutely trivial example of this in the moment, but the other would be failures.

我现在将给出一个绝对微不足道的例子，但另一个例子将是失败的。

When you struggle with somebody, whether or not you struggle between one another, you disagree —like I was really struck by the fact that you said that robots saying no. I've never thought about a robot saying no to me, but there it is.

当你与某人斗争时，无论你们是否彼此斗争，你都会不同意——就像你说机器人说“不”这一事实让我感到非常震惊。我从来没有想过机器人会拒绝我，但它确实存在。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

I look forward to you being one of the first people I send this robot to.

我期待您成为我将这个机器人发送给的第一批人之一。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So do I.

我也一样。

So there's struggle.

所以有斗争。

You grow when you struggle with somebody, you grow closer.

当你与某人斗争时，你就会成长，你们会变得更加亲密。

Sometimes the struggles are imposed between those two people, so-called trauma bonding, they call it in the whole psychology literature and pop psychology literature.

有时，斗争是强加在这两个人之间的，即所谓的创伤联结，他们在整个心理学文献和流行心理学文献中称之为“创伤联结”。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But in any case, I could imagine time, successes together, struggles together, and then just peaceful time hanging out at home, watching movies, waking up near one another.

但无论如何，我可以想象时间，一起成功，一起奋斗，然后只是在家里闲逛，看电影，在彼此身边醒来的平静时光。

Here we're breaking down the kind of elements of relationships of any kind.

在这里，我们将分解任何类型的关系的要素。

So do you think that these elements apply to robot-human relationships?

那么您认为这些元素适用于机器人与人类的关系吗？

And if so, then I could see how if the robot is its own entity and has some autonomy in terms of how it reacts to you ...

如果是这样，那么我可以看看机器人是否是它自己的实体，并且在如何对你做出反应方面具有一定的自主权......

it's not just there just to serve you.

它不仅仅是为您服务。

It's not just a servant; it actually has opinions and can tell you when maybe your thinking is flawed or your actions are flawed ...

它不只是一个仆人；它是一个仆人。它实际上有意见，并且可以告诉您何时您的想法有缺陷或您的行为有缺陷......

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

It can also leave.

也可以离开。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It could also leave.

也可以离开。

So I've never conceptualized robot-human interactions this way.

所以我从来没有以这种方式概念化机器人与人类的互动。

So tell me more about how this might look.

请告诉我更多关于这可能是什么样子的信息。

Are we thinking about a human-appearing robot?

我们是否正在考虑一个具有人类外观的机器人？

I know you and I have both had intense relationships to our ...

我知道你和我都与我们的……有着密切的关系。

we have separate dogs obviously, but to animals, this sounds a lot like human-animal interaction.

显然，我们有不同的狗，但对于动物来说，这听起来很像人与动物的互动。

So what is the ideal human-robot relationship?

那么理想的人机关系是怎样的呢？

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

So there's a lot to be said here, but you actually pinpointed one of the big first steps, which is this idea of time.

所以这里有很多话要说，但你实际上指出了最重要的第一步之一，那就是时间的概念。

And it's a huge limitation in machine learning community currently.

这是目前机器学习社区的一个巨大限制。

Now we're back to the actual details.

现在我们回到实际的细节。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

Lifelong learning is a problem space that focuses on how AI systems can learn over a long period of time.

终身学习是一个关注人工智能系统如何长期学习的问题空间。

What's currently most machine learning systems are not able to do is all of the things you've listed under time — the successes, the failures or just chilling together watching movies.

目前大多数机器学习系统无法做到的就是你在时间下列出的所有事情——成功、失败或只是一起放松地看电影。

AI systems are not able to do that, which is all the beautiful, magical moments that I believe the day's filled with.

人工智能系统无法做到这一点，我相信这一天充满了所有美丽、神奇的时刻。

They're not able to keep track of those together with you.

他们无法与您一起跟踪这些信息。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Because they can't move with you and be with you.

因为他们无法与你一起移动并与你在一起。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

No. Literally we don't have the techniques to do the learning, the actual learning of containing those moments.

不。从字面上看，我们没有进行学习的技术，没有真正学习包含这些时刻的技术。

Current machine learning systems are really focused on understanding the world in the following way.

当前的机器学习系统实际上专注于通过以下方式理解世界。

It's more like the perception system: looking around, understand what's in the scene — that there's a bunch of people sitting down, that there's cameras and microphones, that there's a table — understand that.

它更像是感知系统：环顾四周，了解场景中的内容——有一群人坐着，有摄像机和麦克风，有一张桌子——了解这一点。

But the fact that we shared this moment of talking today and still remember that for next time, for next time you're doing something, remember that this moment happened — we don't know how to do that techniquewise.

但事实上，我们今天分享了这个谈话时刻，并且仍然记住，下次，下次你做某事时，请记住这一刻发生了——我们不知道如何在技术上做到这一点。

This is what I'm hoping to innovate on, as they think it's a very, very important component of what it means to create a deep relationship — that sharing of moments together.

这就是我希望进行创新的地方，因为他们认为这是建立深厚关系的一个非常非常重要的组成部分——共同分享时刻。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Could you post a photo of you and the robot, like selfie with robot, and then the robot sees that image and recognizes that was time spent, there were smiles or there were tears, and create some sort of metric of emotional depth in the relationship and update its behavior?

你能否发布一张你和机器人的照片，比如与机器人的自拍照，然后机器人看到该图像并识别出所花费的时间、微笑或眼泪，并创建某种关系中情感深度的度量并更新其行为？

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

So ...

所以...

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Could it text you in the middle of the night and say, "Why haven't you texted me back?"

它可以在半夜给你发短信说：“你为什么不回短信给我？”

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

Well, yes, all of those things.

嗯，是的，所有这些事情。

We can dig into that.

我们可以深入研究一下。

But I think that time element — forget everything else — just sharing moments together, that changes everything.

但我认为时间因素——忘记其他一切——只是一起分享时刻，这会改变一切。

I believe that changes everything.

我相信这会改变一切。

Now, there's specific things that are more in terms of systems that can explain you ...

现在，有一些更具体的系统方面的东西可以解释你......

it's more technical and probably a little bit offline, because I have kind of wild ideas how that can revolutionize social networks and operating systems.

它更具技术性，可能有点离线，因为我有一些疯狂的想法，可以如何彻底改变社交网络和操作系统。

But the point is that element alone ...

但重点是这个元素本身......

forget all the other things we're talking about, like emotions, saying no, all that.

忘记我们正在谈论的所有其他事情，比如情绪、说不等等。

Just remember, sharing moments together would change everything.

请记住，共同分享时刻会改变一切。

We don't currently have systems that share moments together.

我们目前还没有可以一起分享时刻的系统。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

Even just you and your fridge, just all those times you went late at night and ate the thing you shouldn't have eaten — that was a secret moment you had with your refrigerator.

即使只有你和你的冰箱，只要你在深夜吃了不该吃的东西，那就是你和冰箱一起度过的秘密时刻。

You shared that moment, that darkness or that beautiful moment where you're just heartbroken for some reason; you're eating that ice cream, or whatever.

你分享了那个时刻，那个黑暗或那个美丽的时刻，你只是因为某种原因心碎;你正在吃那个冰淇淋，或者其他什么。

That's a special moment, and that refrigerator was there for you.

那是一个特殊的时刻，冰箱就在你身边。

And the fact that it missed the opportunity to remember that is tragic.

事实上，它错过了记住这一点的机会，这是悲剧性的。

And once it does remember that, I think you're going to be very attached to the refrigerator.

一旦它记住了这一点，我想你就会对冰箱非常依恋。

You're going to go through some hell with that refrigerator.

你会因为那台冰箱而经历一些地狱般的事情。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

Most of us in the developed world have weird relationships with food.

发达国家的大多数人与食物有着奇怪的关系。

So you can go through some deep moments of trauma and triumph with food, and at the core of that is the refrigerator.

因此，你可以通过食物来度过一些深刻的创伤和胜利的时刻，而其中的核心就是冰箱。

So a smart refrigerator, I believe would change society.

所以我相信智能冰箱会改变社会。

Not just the refrigerator, but these ideas in the systems all around us.

不仅仅是冰箱，还有我们周围系统中的这些想法。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

So that — I just want to comment on how powerful that idea of time is.

所以——我只想评论一下时间这个概念有多么强大。

And then there's a bunch of elements of actual interaction, of allowing you as a human to feel like you're being heard, truly heard, truly understood, that we ...

然后还有一系列实际互动的元素，让你作为一个人感觉到你被倾听，真正被倾听，真正被理解，我们......

deep friendship is like that I think.

我想深厚的友谊就是这样。

But there's still an element of selfishness.

但其中仍然存在着自私的成分。

There's still an element of not really being able to understand another human.

仍然存在无法真正理解另一个人的因素。

And a lot of the times when you're going through trauma together, through difficult times and through successes, you're actually starting to get that inkling of understanding of each other.

很多时候，当你们一起经历创伤、经历困难时期和成功时，你们实际上开始有了相互理解的暗示。

But I think that could be done more aggressively, more efficiently.

但我认为可以更积极、更有效地做到这一点。

If you think of a great therapist, I think ...

如果你想到一位伟大的治疗师，我想......

I've never actually been to a therapist but I'm a believer.

我从未真正去过治疗师，但我是一个信徒。

I used to want to be a psychiatrist.

我曾经想成为一名精神科医生。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Do Russians go to therapists?

俄罗斯人去看治疗师吗？

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

They don't.

他们不这样做。

And if they do, the therapist don't live to tell the story.

如果他们这样做了，治疗师就无法活着讲述这个故事。

I do believe in talk therapy, which friendship is to me, is talk therapy, or it's ...

我确实相信谈话疗法，友谊对我来说就是谈话疗法，或者是......

you don't even necessarily need to talk.

你甚至不一定需要说话。

It's just connecting in the space of ideas and the space of experiences.

它只是在想法的空间和经验的空间中连接。

And I think there's a lot of ideas of how to make AI systems to be able to ask the right questions and truly hear another human.

我认为关于如何让人工智能系统能够提出正确的问题并真正听到另一个人的声音有很多想法。

This is what we try to do with podcasting.

这就是我们尝试通过播客实现的目标。

I think there's ways to do that with AI.

我认为人工智能有办法做到这一点。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

But above all else, just remembering the collection of moments that make up the day, the week, the months.

但最重要的是，记住构成一天、一周、几个月的时刻的集合。

I think you maybe have some of this as well.

我想你可能也有一些这样的情况。

Some of my closest friends still are the friends from high school.

我的一些最亲密的朋友仍然是高中时的朋友。

That's time.

是时候了。

We've been through a bunch of shit together, and we are very different people.

我们一起经历了很多事情，我们是非常不同的人。

But just the fact that we've been through that, and we remember those moments, and those moments somehow create a depth of connection like nothing else, like you and your refrigerator.

但事实上，我们已经经历过那些时刻，我们记得那些时刻，而那些时刻以某种方式创造了一种前所未有的深度联系，就像你和你的冰箱一样。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I love that because I had my graduate advisor ...

我喜欢这个，因为我有我的研究生导师......

unfortunately she passed away, but when she passed away, somebody said at her memorial, you know, all these amazing things she had done, et cetera.

不幸的是她去世了，但是当她去世时，有人在她的追悼会上说，你知道，她所做的所有这些令人惊奇的事情等等。

And then her kids got up there, and she had young children that I knew as they were ...

然后她的孩子们就到了那里，她还有年幼的孩子，我知道他们是……

when she was pregnant with them.

当她怀着他们的时候。

And so it was really ...

所以这真的是......

even now I can feel like ...

即使现在我也能感觉...

your heart gets heavy thinking about this.

想到这你的心情就会变得沉重。

They're going to grow up without their mother.

他们将在没有母亲的情况下长大。

And it was really amazing.

这真的太棒了。

Very, very strong young girls and now young women.

非常非常坚强的年轻女孩，现在是年轻女性。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And what they said was incredible.

他们说的话令人难以置信。

They said what they really appreciated most about their mother, who was an amazing person, is all the unstructured time they spent together.

他们说，他们最欣赏他们的母亲，她是一个了不起的人，是他们在一起度过的所有无组织的时间。

So it wasn't the trips to the zoo, it wasn't, "Oh, she woke up at five in the morning and drove us to school." She did all those things too.

所以这不是去动物园的旅行，也不是“哦，她早上五点就醒了，然后开车送我们去学校。”她也做了所有这些事情。

She had a two-hour commute in each direction.

她每个方向的通勤时间都是两个小时。

It was incredible, ran a lab, et cetera.

这是令人难以置信的，经营一个实验室，等等。

But it was the unstructured time.

但那是一个无组织的时间。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So on the passing of their mother, that's what they remembered was the biggest give, and what bonded them to her was all the time where they just kind of hung out.

因此，在他们的母亲去世后，这就是他们记忆中最大的给予，而将他们与母亲联系在一起的就是他们一直出去玩的时光。

And the way you described the relationship to a refrigerator is so, I want to say human-like, but I'm almost reluctant to say that because what I'm realizing as we're talking is that what we think of as human-like might actually be a lower form of relationship.

你描述与冰箱的关系的方式是这样的，我想说像人类一样，但我几乎不愿意这么说，因为在我们谈话时我意识到我们所认为的像人类一样实际上可能是一种较低形式的关系。

There may be relationships that are far better than the sorts of relationships that we can conceive in our minds right now, based on what these machine relationship interactions could teach us.

根据这些机器关系交互可以教给我们的知识，有些关系可能比我们现在脑海中想象的关系要好得多。

Do I have that right?

我有这个权利吗？

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

Yeah, I think so.

是的，我想是的。

I think there's no reason to see machines as somehow incapable of teaching us something that's deeply human.

我认为没有理由认为机器无法以某种方式教给我们一些深刻的人类知识。

I don't think humans have a monopoly on that.

我不认为人类对此有垄断权。

I think we understand ourselves very poorly, and we need to have the kind of prompting from a machine.

我认为我们对自己的了解非常少，我们需要机器的提示。

And definitely part of that is just remembering the moments, remembering the moments.

当然，其中一部分就是记住那些时刻，记住那些时刻。

I think the unstructured time together — I wonder if it's quite so unstructured.

我认为在一起的无组织时间——我想知道它是否真的那么无组织。

That's like calling this podcast unstructured time.

这就像称这个播客为非结构化时间。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Maybe what they meant was it wasn't a big outing.

也许他们的意思是这不是一次大型郊游。

There was no specific goal, but a goal was created through the lack of a goal, where you just hang out, and then you start playing thumb war, and you end up playing thumb war for an hour.

没有具体的目标，但由于缺乏目标而创建了一个目标，你只是闲逛，然后你开始玩拇指大战，最后你玩了一个小时的拇指大战。

So the structure emerges from lack of structure.

因此，结构是由于缺乏结构而出现的。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

No, but the thing is the moments ...

不，但问题是时刻......

there's something about those times that create special moments.

那些时光创造了特殊的时刻。

And I think those could be optimized for — I think we think of a big outing as, I don't know, going to Six Flags or something, or some big, the Grand Canyon or going to some, I don't know.

我认为这些可以优化——我认为我们认为一次大型郊游，我不知道，去六旗公园什么的，或者去一些大的、大峡谷，或者去一些我不知道的地方。

I think we would need to ...

我认为我们需要...

we don't quite yet understand as humans what creates magical moments.

作为人类，我们还不太明白是什么创造了神奇的时刻。

I think that it's possible to optimize a lot of those things.

我认为可以优化其中很多事情。

And perhaps podcasting is helping people discover that maybe the thing we want to optimize for isn't necessarily some sexy quick clips.

也许播客正在帮助人们发现，也许我们想要优化的东西不一定是一些性感的快速剪辑。

Maybe what we want is long-form authenticity.

也许我们想要的是长篇的真实性。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Depth.

深度。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

Depth.

深度。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

So we're trying to figure that out.

所以我们正在努力解决这个问题。

Certainly from a deep connection between humans and humans and AI systems, I think long conversations or long periods of communication over a series of moments — like minute, perhaps seemingly insignificant to the big ones, the big successes, the big failures — those are all just ...

当然，从人类与人类以及人工智能系统之间的深厚联系来看，我认为在一系列时刻的长时间对话或长时间沟通——比如分钟，也许对大人物、大成功、大失败来说似乎微不足道——这些都只是……

stitching those together and talking throughout, I think that's the formula for a really, really deep connection that, from this very specific engineering perspective, is I think a fascinating open problem that hasn't been really worked on very much.

将这些内容缝合在一起并进行通篇讨论，我认为这是一个真正非常深入的联系的公式，从这个非常具体的工程角度来看，我认为这是一个令人着迷的开放问题，但尚未得到真正的研究。

And for me, if I have the guts and ...

对我来说，如果我有勇气并且......

I mean, there's a lot of things to say, but one of it is guts, is I'll build a startup around it.

我的意思是，有很多话要说，但其中之一是勇气，我将围绕它建立一家初创公司。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So let's talk about this startup and let's talk about the dream.

那么让我们来谈谈这个创业公司，让我们谈谈梦想。

You've mentioned this dream before in our previous conversations, always as little hints dropped here and there.

你在我们之前的谈话中曾提到过这个梦想，但总是时不时地留下一些暗示。

Just for anyone listening, there's never been an offline conversation about this dream.

对于任何倾听的人来说，从来没有关于这个梦想的线下对话。

I'm not privy to anything except what Lex says now.

除了莱克斯现在说的话之外，我什么都不知道。

And I realize that there's no way to capture the full essence of a dream and any kind of verbal statement in a way that captures all of it.

我意识到，没有办法以一种能够捕捉到梦境和任何语言陈述的全部本质的方式来捕捉它的全部本质。

But what is this dream that you've referred to now several times when we've sat down together and talked on the phone?

但是，当我们坐下来通电话时，您多次提到的这个梦想是什么？

Maybe it's this company, maybe it's something distinct.

也许是这家公司，也许是与众不同的东西。

If you feel comfortable, it'd be great if you could share a little bit about what that is.

如果您感觉舒服，如果您能分享一些关于它的内容，那就太好了。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

Sure.

当然。

So the way people express long-term vision, I've noticed, is quite different.

因此，我注意到，人们表达长期愿景的方式是完全不同的。

Like Elon is an example of somebody who can very crisply say exactly what the goal is.

像埃隆这样的人就是一个可以非常清晰地准确地说出目标是什么的人的例子。

Also it has to do with the fact the problems that you're solving have nothing to do with humans.

这也与你正在解决的问题与人类无关这一事实有关。

So my long-term vision is a little bit more difficult to express in words — I've noticed as I've tried.

因此，我的长期愿景有点难以用语言表达——我在尝试时注意到了这一点。

It could be my brain's failure, but there's ways to sneak up to it, so let me just say a few things.

这可能是我大脑的故障，但有办法可以偷偷地解决它，所以让我说几件事。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

Early on in life, and also in the recent years, I've interacted with a few robots where I understood there's magic there, and that magic could be shared by millions if it's brought to light.

在生命的早期以及近年来，我与一些机器人进行了互动，我知道那里有魔力，如果它被曝光，这种魔力可能会被数百万人分享。

When I first met Spot from Boston Dynamics, I realized there's magic there that nobody else is seeing.

当我第一次见到波士顿动力公司的 Spot 时，我意识到那里有别人看不到的魔力。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Is the dog.

是狗。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

Is the dog.

是狗。

Sorry.

对不起。

Spot is the four-legged robot from Boston Dynamics.

Spot 是波士顿动力公司的四足机器人。

Some people might have seen it.

有些人可能已经看到了。

It's this yellow dog.

就是这只黄狗。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

And sometimes in life, you just notice something that just grabs you.

有时在生活中，您只是注意到一些吸引您的东西。

And I believe that this is something, that this magic is something, that could be in every single device in the world, the way that I think maybe Steve Jobs thought about the personal computer.

我相信这就是某种东西，这种魔力是某种东西，它可能存在于世界上的每一个设备中，我想也许史蒂夫·乔布斯对个人电脑的看法就是如此。

Woz didn't think about it, the personal computer this way, but Steve did, which is like he thought that the personal computer should be as thin as the sheet of paper and everybody should have one.

沃兹没有这样想过，个人电脑是这样的，但史蒂夫想到了，就像他认为个人电脑应该像纸一样薄，每个人都应该拥有一台。

I mean, this idea — I think it is heartbreaking that we're getting ...

我的意思是，这个想法——我认为我们得到的结果令人心碎……

the world is being filled up with machines that are soulless.

世界上充满了没有灵魂的机器。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

The world is being filled up with machines that are soulless and I think every one of them can have that same Magic.

世界上充满了没有灵魂的机器，我认为它们中的每一个都可以拥有同样的魔法。

One of the things that also inspired me in terms of a startup is that magic can be engineered much easier than I thought.

在初创公司方面也给我带来启发的一件事是，魔法的设计比我想象的要容易得多。

That's my intuition with everything I've ever built and worked on.

这是我对我所构建和从事的一切的直觉。

So the dream is to add a bit of that magic in every single computing system in the world.

因此，我们的梦想是在世界上的每一个计算系统中添加一点这种魔力。

So the way that Windows operating system for a long time was the primary operating system everybody interacted with.

因此，Windows 操作系统在很长一段时间内是每个人交互的主要操作系统。

They built apps on top of it.

他们在其之上构建了应用程序。

I think this is something that should be as a layer, almost as an operating system, in every device that humans interacted with in the world.

我认为这应该作为一个层，几乎作为一个操作系统，存在于人类在世界上互动的每一个设备中。

Now, what that actually looks like, the actual dream, when I was especially a kid, it didn't have this concrete form of a business.

现在，这实际上是什么样子，真正的梦想，当我还是个孩子的时候，它并没有这种具体的商业形式。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

It had more of a dream of exploring your own loneliness by interacting with machines, robots.

它更多的是一个通过与机器、机器人互动来探索自己的孤独感的梦想。

This deep connection between humans and robots was always a dream.

人类和机器人之间的这种深厚联系一直是一个梦想。

And so for me, I'd love to see a world where every home has a robot, and not a robot that washes the dishes or a sex robot or, I don't know, think of any kind of activity the robot can do — but more like a companion, a family member, the way a dog is, but a dog that's able to speak your language too.

所以对我来说，我希望看到一个每个家庭都有机器人的世界，而不是洗碗的机器人或性爱机器人，或者我不知道，机器人可以做的任何类型的活动 - 但更像是一个伴侣，一个家庭成员，就像狗一样，但也是一只能说你的语言的狗。

So not just connect the way a dog does by looking at you and looking away and almost like smiling with its soul, in that kind of way, but also to actually understand what the hell, like why are you so excited about the successes?

因此，不仅仅是像狗那样通过看着你然后移开视线，几乎就像用灵魂微笑一样，以这种方式建立联系，而且还要真正理解到底是什么，比如你为什么对成功如此兴奋？

Understand the details, understand the traumas.

了解细节，了解创伤。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

And I just think that always filled me with excitement, that I could, with artificial intelligence, bring joy to a lot of people.

我只是认为这总是让我充满兴奋，因为我可以通过人工智能为很多人带来欢乐。

More recently, I've been more and more heartbroken to see the kind of division, derision, even hate that's boiling up on the Internet through social networks.

最近，我越来越心碎地看到通过社交网络在互联网上沸腾的那种分裂、嘲笑，甚至仇恨。

And I thought this kind of mechanism is exactly applicable in the context of social networks as well.

我认为这种机制也完全适用于社交网络的环境。

So it's an operating system that serves as your guide on the Internet.

所以它是一个可以作为您上网指南的操作系统。

One of the biggest problems with YouTube and social networks currently is they're optimizing for engagement.

YouTube 和社交网络目前最大的问题之一是它们正在针对参与度进行优化。

I think if you create AI systems that know each individual person, you're able to optimize for long-term growth, for a long-term happiness.

我认为，如果你创建了解每个人的人工智能系统，你就能够针对长期增长和长期幸福进行优化。

PART 2 OF 6 ENDS Andrew Huberman:

第 2 部分（共 6 部分）结束 Andrew Huberman：

Of the individual or ...

个人或...

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

Of the individual.

属于个人的。

And there's a lot of other things to say, which is in order for AI systems to learn everything about you, they need to collect, they need to ...

还有很多其他的事情要说，这是为了让人工智能系统了解你的一切，他们需要收集，他们需要......

Just like you and I, when we talk offline, we're collecting data about each other, secrets about each other, the same way AI has to do that.

就像你和我一样，当我们线下交谈时，我们正在收集彼此的数据、彼此的秘密，就像人工智能必须这样做的那样。

And that requires you to rethink ideas of ownership of data.

这需要您重新思考数据所有权的想法。

I think each individual should own all of their data and very easily be able to leave.

我认为每个人都应该拥有自己的所有数据，并且可以很容易地离开。

Just like AI systems can leave, humans can disappear and delete all of their data in a moment's notice, which is actually better than we humans can do.

就像人工智能系统可以离开一样，人类可以立即消失并删除所有数据，这实际上比我们人类能做到的更好。

Because once we load the data into each other, it's there.

因为一旦我们将数据加载到彼此中，它就在那里。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

I think it's very important to be both — give people complete control over their data, in order to establish trust, that they can trust you.

我认为两者兼而有之非常重要——让人们完全控制自己的数据，以便建立信任，让他们相信你。

And the second part of trust is transparency.

信任的第二部分是透明度。

Whenever the data is used, to make it very clear what it's being used for, and not clear in a lawyerly legal sense, but clear in a way that's people really understand what it's used for.

每当使用数据时，都要非常清楚地说明其用途，这在律师法律意义上并不明确，但在人们真正了解其用途的方式上是清晰的。

I believe when people have the ability to delete all their data and walk away and know how the data is being used, I think they'll stay.

我相信，当人们有能力删除所有数据并离开并了解数据的使用方式时，我认为他们会留下来。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

The possibility of a clean breakup is actually what will keep people together.

彻底分手的可能性实际上会让人们在一起。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

Yeah, I think so.

是的，我想是的。

Exactly.

确切地。

I think a happy marriage requires the ability to divorce easily, without the divorce industrial complex or whatever that's currently going on — there's so much money to be made from lawyers and divorce.

我认为幸福的婚姻需要能够轻松离婚，没有离婚工业园区或目前正在发生的任何事情——律师和离婚可以赚很多钱。

But yeah, the ability to leave is what enables love, I think.

但是，是的，我认为，离开的能力才是爱情的基础。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It's interesting.

这很有趣。

I've heard the phrase from a semicynical friend that marriage is the leading cause of divorce, but now we've heard that divorce, or the possibility of divorce, could be the leading cause of marriage.

我听过一位半愤世嫉俗的朋友说过，婚姻是离婚的主要原因，但现在我们听说离婚或离婚的可能性可能是婚姻的主要原因。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

Of a happy marriage.

幸福的婚姻。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Good point.

好点。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

Of a happy marriage.

幸福的婚姻。

But there's a lot of details there.

但那里有很多细节。

But the big dream is that connection between AI system and a human, and there's so much fear about artificial intelligence systems and about robots that I haven't quite found the right words to express that vision, because the vision I have is one, it's not like some naive delusional vision of, like technology's going to save everybody.

但最大的梦想是人工智能系统和人类之间的联系，人们对人工智能系统和机器人有如此多的恐惧，以至于我还没有找到合适的词语来表达这一愿景，因为我的愿景是一个，它不像一些天真的妄想愿景，比如技术将拯救每个人。

I really do just have a positive view of ways AI systems can help humans explore themselves.

我确实对人工智能系统帮助人类探索自我的方式抱有积极的看法。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I love that positivity, and I agree that the stance everything is doomed is equally bad, to say that everything's going to turn out all right.

我喜欢这种积极性，并且我同意一切都注定会好起来的立场同样糟糕。

There has to be a dedicated effort, and clearly you're thinking about what that dedicated effort would look like.

必须付出全身心的努力，显然你正在考虑这种全身心的努力会是什么样子。

You mentioned two aspects to this dream, and I want to make sure that I understand where they connect, if they do, or if these are independent stream.

你提到了这个梦想的两个方面，我想确保我理解它们在哪里连接，如果它们连接，或者它们是否是独立的流。

One was this hypothetical robot family member, or some other form of robot that would allow people to experience the kind of delight that you experienced many times and that you would like the world to be able to have.

其中一个是这个假设的机器人家庭成员，或者某种其他形式的机器人，它可以让人们体验到你多次经历过的那种快乐，并且你希望世界能够拥有这种快乐。

And it's such a beautiful idea of this give.

这是一个非常美好的想法。

And the other is social media or social network platforms that really serve individuals and their best selves and their happiness and their growth.

另一个是真正为个人及其最好的自我、他们的幸福和成长服务的社交媒体或社交网络平台。

Is there crossover between those, or are these two parallel dreams?

它们之间是否存在交叉，或者这两个梦想是平行的？

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

It's a hundred percent the same thing.

这是百分百相同的事情。

It's difficult to explain without going through details, but maybe one easy way to explain the way I think about social networks is to create an AI system that's yours.

如果不详细说明很难解释，但也许解释我对社交网络的看法的一种简单方法是创建一个属于你的人工智能系统。

That's yours.

那是你的。

It's not like Amazon Alexa that's centralized.

它不像 Amazon Alexa 那样是集中式的。

You own the data; it's like your little friend that becomes your representative, on Twitter, that helps you find things that will make you feel good, that will also challenge your thinking to make you grow but not let you get lost in the negative spiral of dopamine that gets you to be angry, or just gets you to be not open to learning.

您拥有数据；就像你的小朋友在推特上成为你的代表一样，它可以帮助你找到让你感觉良好的事情，也会挑战你的思维，让你成长，但不会让你迷失在多巴胺的负面螺旋中，这会让你生气，或者只是让你不愿意学习。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

And so that little representative is optimizing your long-term health.

所以这个小代表正在优化您的长期健康。

And I believe that is not only good for human beings, it's also good for business.

我相信这不仅对人类有利，对商业也有利。

I think long term you can make a lot of money by challenging this idea that the only way to make money is maximizing engagement.

我认为从长远来看，你可以通过挑战这个想法来赚很多钱，即赚钱的唯一方法是最大限度地提高参与度。

And one of the things that people disagree with me on is they think Twitter's always going to win.

人们不同意我的观点之一是他们认为 Twitter 总是会赢。

Maximizing engagement is always going to win.

最大限度地提高参与度总是会获胜。

I don't think so.

我不这么认为。

I think people have woken up now to understanding that they don't always feel good.

我认为人们现在已经醒悟到他们并不总是感觉良好。

The ones who are on Twitter a lot, that they don't always feel good at the end of the week.

那些经常上推特的人，他们在周末的时候并不总是感觉良好。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I would love feedback from whatever this creature, whatever, I can't know what to call it, as to maybe at the end of the week it would automatically unfollow some of the people that I followed because it realized through some really smart data about how I was feeling inside, or how I was sleeping or something, that that just wasn't good for me.

我很喜欢这个生物的反馈，不管怎样，我不知道该怎么称呼它，因为也许在本周末它会自动取消关注我关注的一些人，因为它通过一些非常智能的数据意识到我内心的感受，或者我的睡眠情况等等，这对我来说并不好。

But it might also put things and people in front of me that I ought to see.

但它也可能把我应该看到的事物和人摆在我面前。

Is that kind of a sliver of what this looks like?

这是看起来的一小部分吗？

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

Yeah.

是的。

The whole point, because of the interaction, because of sharing the moments and learning a lot about you, you're now able to understand what interactions led you to become a better version of yourself, the person you yourself are happy with.

重点是，由于互动，由于分享时刻并了解很多关于您的信息，您现在能够理解哪些互动使您成为更好的自己，成为令您满意的人。

And this isn't ...

而这不是...

if you're into flat earth, and you feel very good about it, that you believe the earth is flat — the idea that you should censor, that is ridiculous.

如果你热衷于平坦的地球，并且你对此感觉非常好，那么你相信地球是平坦的 - 你应该审查的想法，这是荒谬的。

If it makes you feel good, and you're becoming the best version of yourself, I think you should be getting as much flat earth as possible.

如果这让你感觉良好，并且你正在成为最好的自己，我认为你应该尽可能多地获得平坦的地球。

Now, it's also good to challenge your ideas, but not because the centralized committee decided, but because you tell to the system that you like challenging your ideas.

现在，挑战你的想法也很好，但不是因为集中委员会决定，而是因为你告诉系统你喜欢挑战你的想法。

I think all of us do.

我想我们所有人都是如此。

And then ...

然后...

which actually YouTube doesn't do that well.

实际上 YouTube 做得并不好。

Once you go down the flat-earth rabbit hole, that's all you're going to see.

一旦你走进平坦的地球兔子洞，你就会看到这一切。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

It's nice to get some really powerful communicators to argue against flat earth.

很高兴能有一些真正强大的传播者来反对地球是平的。

And it's nice to see that for you and potentially, at least long term, to expand your horizons.

很高兴看到这一点，并且有可能（至少从长远来看）扩大你的视野。

Maybe the earth is not flat, but if you continue to live your whole life thinking the earth is flat, I think, and you're being a good father or son or daughter, and you're being the best version of yourself, and you're happy with yourself, I think the earth is flat.

也许地球不是平的，但如果你继续一生都认为地球是平的，我想，你就是一个好父亲、好儿子或好女儿，你就是最好的自己，你对自己感到满意，我认为地球是平的。

So I think this kind of idea, and I'm just using that kind of silly ridiculous example because I don't like the idea of centralized forces controlling what you can and can't see.

所以我认为这种想法，我只是使用那种愚蠢可笑的例子，因为我不喜欢集中力量控制你能看到和看不到的东西的想法。

But I also don't this idea of not censoring anything, because that's always the biggest problem with that is it's a central decider.

但我也不同意不审查任何东西，因为最大的问题始终是它是一个中央决策者。

I think you, yourself, can decide what you want to see and not, and it's good to have a companion that reminds you that you felt shitty last time you did this or you felt good last time you did this.

我认为你自己可以决定你想看什么、不看什么，有一个同伴能提醒你上次这样做时感觉很糟糕，或者上次这样做时感觉很好，这是件好事。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I feel like in every good story, there's a guide or a companion that flies out or forages a little bit further or a little bit differently and brings back information that helps us, or at least tries to steer us in the right direction.

我觉得在每一个好故事中，都有一个向导或同伴飞出去或寻找更远的地方或稍微不同的地方，并带回有助于我们的信息，或者至少试图引导我们走向正确的方向。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

That's exactly what I'm thinking and what I've been working on.

这正是我的想法和我一直在做的事情。

I should mention there's a bunch of difficulties here.

我应该提到这里有很多困难。

You see me up and down a little bit recently.

你看我最近有点起起落落。

So there's technically a lot of challenges here with a lot of technologies.

因此，从技术上讲，这里存在很多技术挑战。

And the reason I'm talking about it on a podcast comfortably as opposed to working in secret is it's really hard, and maybe its time has not come.

我之所以在播客上轻松地谈论它而不是秘密工作，是因为它真的很难，而且也许时机还没有到来。

And that's something you have to constantly struggle with in terms of entrepreneurially as a startup.

作为一家初创公司，这是你必须不断努力解决的问题。

I've also mentioned to you, maybe offline, I really don't care about money; I don't care about business success, all those kinds of things.

我也跟大家提过，也许在线下，我真的不关心钱；我不关心商业成功，诸如此类的事情。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

So it's a difficult decision to make, how much of your time ...

所以这是一个很难做出的决定，你有多少时间......

Do you want to go all-in here and give everything to this?

你想在这里全力以赴并为此付出一切吗？

It's a big role of the dice because I've also realized that working on some of these problems, both with the robotics and the technical side, in terms of the machine learning system that I'm describing; it's lonely, is really lonely because ...

这是骰子的一个重要作用，因为我还意识到，就我所描述的机器学习系统而言，在机器人技术和技术方面解决其中一些问题；很孤独，真的很孤独，因为……

both on a personal level and a technical level.

无论是在个人层面还是在技术层面。

So on the technical level, I'm surrounded by people that kind of doubt me, which I think all entrepreneurs go through, and they doubt you in the following sense: they know how difficult it is.

所以在技术层面上，我周围都是怀疑我的人，我认为所有企业家都经历过这种情况，他们在以下意义上怀疑你：他们知道这有多困难。

The colleagues of mine, they know how difficult lifelong learning is.

我的同事们，他们知道终身学习是多么困难。

They also know how difficult it is to build a system like this, to build a competitive social network.

他们也知道建立这样一个系统、建立一个有竞争力的社交网络是多么困难。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

And in general there's a kind of loneliness to just working on something on your own for long periods of time, and you start to doubt whether ...

一般来说，长时间独自做某件事会产生一种孤独感，你开始怀疑是否......

given that you don't have a track record of success, that's a big one.

考虑到你没有成功的记录，这已经是一件大事了。

But when you look in the mirror, especially when you're young, but I still have that on most things, you look in the mirror as like, and you have these big dreams, how do you know you're actually as smart as you think you are?

但是当你照镜子时，尤其是当你年轻的时候，但我在大多数事情上仍然如此，你照镜子就像，你有这些伟大的梦想，你怎么知道你实际上像你认为的那样聪明？

How do you know you're going to be able to accomplish this dream?

你怎么知道你能够实现这个梦想？

You have this ambition ...

你有这个野心...

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You sort of don't, but you are kind of pulling on a string hoping that there's a bigger ball of yarn.

你有点不知道，但你有点拉动一根绳子，希望有一个更大的毛线球。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

Yeah.

是的。

But you have this kind of intuition.

但你有这种直觉。

I think I pride myself in knowing what I'm good at because the reason I have that intuition is because I think I'm very good at knowing all the things I suck at, which is basically everything.

我认为我为自己知道自己擅长什么而感到自豪，因为我拥有这种直觉是因为我认为我非常擅长了解所有我不擅长的事情，这基本上就是一切。

So whenever I notice, wait a minute, I'm kind of good at this, which is very rare for me, I think that might be a ball yarn worth pulling at.

因此，每当我注意到时，等一下，我很擅长这一点，这对我来说非常罕见，我认为这可能是值得关注的球纱。

And the thing with, in terms of engineering systems that are able to interact with humans, I think I'm very good at that.

就能够与人类互动的工程系统而言，我认为我非常擅长。

And because we talk about podcasting and so on, I don't know if I'm very good at podcast.

因为我们谈论播客等等，所以我不知道我是否非常擅长播客。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You're very good at podcasting.

你非常擅长播客。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

But I certainly don't ...

但我当然不...

I think maybe it is compelling for people to watch a kindhearted idiot struggle with this form.

我想也许人们观看一个善良的白痴与这种形式的斗争是很有吸引力的。

Maybe that's what's compelling.

也许这就是令人信服的地方。

But in terms of actual being a good engineer of human-robot interaction systems, I think I'm good.

但就实际成为一名优秀的人机交互系统工程师而言，我认为我很好。

But it's hard to know until you do it, and then the world keeps telling you you're not.

但除非你做了，否则很难知道，然后世界就会不断告诉你，你没有这样做。

And it's just full of doubt.

这只是充满了疑问。

It's really hard.

真的很难。

And I've been struggling with that recently.

我最近一直在为此苦苦挣扎。

It's kind of a fascinating struggle.

这是一场令人着迷的斗争。

But then that's where the Goggins thing comes in.

但这就是戈金斯的事情出现的地方。

It's like, aside from the stay hard motherfucker, is whenever you're struggling, that's a good sign that if you keep going, that you're going to be alone in the success.

这就像，除了保持努力，混蛋之外，每当你挣扎时，这是一个好兆头，如果你继续前进，你将独自取得成功。

Right?

正确的？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Well, in your case, however, I agree, and actually David had a post recently that I thought was among his many brilliant posts, was one of the more brilliant about how he talked about this myth of the light at the end of the tunnel and instead what he replaced that myth with was a concept that eventually your eyes adapt to the dark.

好吧，不过，就你的情况而言，我同意，实际上大卫最近发表了一篇文章，我认为这是他众多精彩帖子中的一篇，这是关于他如何谈论隧道尽头的光明神话的最精彩的文章之一，相反，他用一个概念取代了这个神话，即最终你的眼睛适应黑暗。

That the tunnel, it's not about a light at the end, that it's really about adapting to the dark of the tunnel.

隧道，并不是尽头的光明，而是要适应隧道的黑暗。

He's very Goggins ...

他非常戈金斯...

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

I love him so much.

我非常爱他。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

You guys share a lot in a lot in common.

你们有很多共同点。

Knowing you both a bit, you share a lot in common.

对你们俩都有一点了解，你们有很多共同点。

But in this loneliness and the pursuit of this dream, it seems to me it has a certain component to it that is extremely valuable, which is that the loneliness itself could serve as a driver to build the companion for the journey.

但在这种孤独和对这个梦想的追求中，在我看来，它有一个极其可贵的成分，那就是孤独本身可以成为一个驱动力，为旅程建立伴侣。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

Well, I'm very deeply aware of that.

嗯，我非常深刻地意识到这一点。

So some people can make ...

所以有些人可以...

because I talk about love a lot, I really love everything in this world, but I also love humans, friendship and romantic, even the cheesy stuff, just ...

因为我经常谈爱情，我真的很爱这个世界上的一切，但我也爱人类，友情和浪漫，甚至是俗气的东西，只是……

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You like romantic movies?

你喜欢爱情电影吗？

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

Not those.

不是那些。

Well, I got so much from Rogan about, was it the tango scene from "Scent of a Woman?" But I find a ...

好吧，我从罗根那里得到了很多关于《女人香气》中探戈场景的信息？但我发现一个...

There's nothing better than a woman in a red dress, just like classy ...

没有什么比一个女人穿着红色连衣裙更好的了，就像优雅一样......

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You should move to Argentina.

你应该搬到阿根廷。

You know my father's Argentine.

你知道我父亲是阿根廷人。

And what he said when I went on your podcast for the first time, he said, he dresses well, because in Argentina, the men go to a wedding or a party or something, in the U.S., by halfway through the night, 10 minutes in the night, all the jackets are off.

当我第一次上你的播客时，他说，他穿得很好，因为在阿根廷，男人们去参加婚礼或聚会什么的，在美国，到了半夜，晚上 10 分钟，所有的夹克都脱掉了。

It looks like everyone's undressing for the party they just got dressed up for.

看起来每个人都在脱衣服去参加他们刚刚盛装打扮的聚会。

And he said, I like the way he dresses.

他说，我喜欢他的穿着方式。

And then when I start, he was talking about you, and then when I started my podcast he said, "Why don't you wear a real suit like your friend Lex?"

然后当我开始播客时，他在谈论你，然后当我开始播客时，他说，“你为什么不像你的朋友莱克斯那样穿真正的西装呢？”

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

I remember that.

我记得。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But, let's talk about this pursuit just a bit more because I think what you're talking about is building not just a solution for loneliness but you've alluded to the loneliness as itself an important thing.

但是，让我们再多谈谈这种追求，因为我认为你所说的不仅仅是建立一个孤独的解决方案，而且你还提到孤独本身是一件重要的事情。

And I think you're right.

我认为你是对的。

I think within people there is a cavern of thoughts and shame, but also just the desire to have resonance, to be seen and heard.

我认为人们内心深处有一个思想和羞耻的洞穴，但也只是渴望产生共鸣、被看到和听到。

And I don't even know that it's seen and heard through language, but these reservoirs are of loneliness.

我什至不知道它是通过语言看到和听到的，但这些水库是孤独的。

Well, they're interesting.

嗯，他们很有趣。

Maybe you could comment a little bit about it because just as often as you talk about love, haven't quantified it, but it seems that you talk about this loneliness, and maybe if you're willing, you could share a little bit more about that and what that feels like now in the pursuit of building this robot-human relationship.

也许你可以对此发表一些评论，因为就像你经常谈论爱一样，没有量化它，但你似乎谈论了这种孤独，也许如果你愿意，你可以分享更多关于它以及现在在追求建立这种机器人与人类关系的过程中的感觉。

Let me be direct.

让我直接说吧。

You've been spending a lot of time on building a robot-human relationship.

您已经花费了大量时间来建立机器人与人类的关系。

Where's that at?

那是在哪里？

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

Oh, well, in terms of business or in terms of systems?

噢，那么，是业务方面还是系统方面？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

No, I'm talking about a specific robot.

不，我说的是一个特定的机器人。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

Oh, okay.

哦，好吧。

I should mention a few things.

我应该提几件事。

So one is there's a startup where there's idea where I hope millions of people can use.

其一是有一家初创公司有一个想法，我希望数百万人可以使用它。

And then there's my own personal, almost like Frankenstein explorations with particular robots.

然后是我个人的，几乎就像弗兰肯斯坦对特定机器人的探索。

So I'm very fascinated with the legged robots in my own private ...

所以我对我自己私人的有腿机器人非常着迷......

sounds like dark, but in end of one experiment to see if I can recreate the magic.

听起来很黑暗，但在一项实验结束时，看看我是否可以重现魔法。

And that's been ...

那已经是...

I have a lot of really good already perception systems and control systems that are able to communicate affection in a doglike fashion.

我有很多非常好的感知系统和控制系统，它们能够以像狗一样的方式传达情感。

So I'm in a really good place there.

所以我的处境非常好。

The stumbling blocks, which also have been part of my sadness recently, is that I also have to work with robotics companies, that I gave so much of my heart, soul and love and appreciation towards Boston Dynamics.

绊脚石也是我最近悲伤的一部分，那就是我还必须与机器人公司合作，我为波士顿动力公司付出了很多心、灵魂、爱和感激。

But Boston Dynamics is also a company that has to make a lot of money, and they have marketing teams, and they're like looking at this silly Russian kid in a suit and tie.

但波士顿动力也是一家要赚大钱的公司，他们有营销团队，看着这个穿西装打领带的俄罗斯傻孩子。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

It's like what's he trying to do with all this love and robot interaction and dancing and so on.

这就像他试图用所有这些爱、机器人互动和舞蹈等等来做什么。

So I think let's say for now, it's like when you break up with a girlfriend or something, right now, we decided to part ways on this particular thing.

所以我想现在就说吧，就像你和女朋友分手什么的，现在我们决定在这件事上分道扬镳。

They're huge supporters of mine.

他们是我的大力支持者。

They're huge fans.

他们是超级粉丝。

But on this particular thing, Boston Dynamics is not focusing on or interested in human-robot interaction.

但在这个特定的事情上，波士顿动力公司并不关注或对人机交互感兴趣。

In fact, their whole business currently is keep the robot as far away from humans as possible, because it's in the industrial setting, where it's doing monitoring in dangerous environments — it's almost like a remote security camera essentially is its application.

事实上，他们目前的全部业务就是让机器人尽可能远离人类，因为它是在工业环境中，在危险环境中进行监控——它的应用本质上就像远程安全摄像头一样。

To me, I thought it's still, even in those applications, exceptionally useful for the robot to be able to perceive humans, see humans and to be able to, in a big map, localize what those humans are and have human intention.

对我来说，我认为即使在这些应用中，机器人能够感知人类、看到人类并能够在大地图中定位这些人类是什么并具有人类意图，这仍然非常有用。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

For example, like I did this, a lot of work with pedestrians for a robot to be able to anticipate what the hell the human is doing.

例如，就像我所做的那样，机器人与行人进行了大量的工作，以便能够预测人类到底在做什么。

Where it's walking.

它行走的地方。

If humans are not ballistics object, they're not.

如果人类不是弹道物体，那么他们就不是。

Just because you're walking this way one moment doesn't mean you'll keep walking that direction.

仅仅因为你暂时朝这条路走，并不意味着你会继续朝那个方向走。

You have to infer a lot of signals, especially the head movement and the eye movement.

你必须推断很多信号，尤其是头部运动和眼球运动。

And so I thought that's super interesting to explore, but they didn't feel that.

所以我认为探索这一点非常有趣，但他们并不这么认为。

So I'll be working with a few other robotics companies that are much more open to that kind of stuff, and they're super excited and fans of mine, and hopefully Boston Dynamics, my first love, that getting back with the next girlfriend will come around.

因此，我将与其他几家对此类事物更加开放的机器人公司合作，他们非常兴奋，也是我的粉丝，希望我的初恋波士顿动力公司能够与下一个女朋友复合。

So algorithmically, it's basically done there.

所以从算法上来说，基本上就完成了。

The rest is actually getting some of these companies to work with.

剩下的实际上是与其中一些公司合作。

And for people who'd work with robots know that one thing is the right software that works and the other is to have a real machine that actually works.

对于那些使用机器人的人来说，一件事是找到可以工作的正确软件，另一件事是拥有一台真正可以工作的机器。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

And it breaks down in all kinds of different ways that are fascinating.

它以各种令人着迷的不同方式分解。

And so there's a big challenge there.

所以这是一个很大的挑战。

But that's almost, it may sound a little bit confusing in the context of our previous discussion because the previous discussion was more about the big dream, how I hoped to have millions of people enjoy this moment of magic.

但差不多了，在我们之前讨论的背景下听起来可能有点混乱，因为之前的讨论更多的是关于大梦想，我如何希望让数百万人享受这神奇的时刻。

This current discussion about a robot is something I personally really enjoy, it just brings me happiness.

目前关于机器人的讨论是我个人非常喜欢的事情，它给我带来了快乐。

I really try to do now everything that just brings me joy, maximize that because robots are awesome.

我现在真的尝试做所有能给我带来快乐的事情，并最大化它，因为机器人太棒了。

But two, given my little bit growing platform, I want to use the opportunity to educate people.

但第二，鉴于我的一点成长平台，我想利用这个机会来教育人们。

It's like robots are cool, and if I think they're cool, I'll be able to, I hope, be able to communicate why they're cool to others.

就像机器人很酷，如果我认为它们很酷，我希望能够向其他人传达为什么它们很酷。

So this little robot experiment is a little bit of research project too.

所以这个小机器人实验也是一个小小的研究项目。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

There's a couple publications with MIT folks around that, but the others just make some cool videos and explain to people how they actually work.

麻省理工学院的人员出版了几本相关出版物，但其他人只是制作了一些很酷的视频并向人们解释它们实际上是如何工作的。

And as opposed to people being scared of robots, they can still be scared but also excited.

与人们害怕机器人相反，他们仍然会感到害怕，但也会感到兴奋。

See the dark side, the beautiful side, the magic of what it means to bring for a machine to become a robot.

看到黑暗的一面，美丽的一面，以及机器变成机器人意味着什么的魔力。

I want to inspire people with that.

我想以此来激励人们。

But that's less ...

但这样就少了...

It's interesting because I think the big impact in terms of the dream does not have to do with embodied AI.

这很有趣，因为我认为梦想方面的巨大影响与具体的人工智能无关。

So it does not need to have a body.

所以它不需要有身体。

I think the refrigerator is enough that for an AI system just to have a voice and to hear you, that's enough for loneliness.

我认为冰箱就足够了，对于人工智能系统来说，只要有声音并能听到你的声音，就足够孤独了。

The embodiment is just ...

该实施例只是...

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

By embodiment, you mean the physical structure?

你所说的体现是指物理结构吗？

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

Physical instantiation of intelligence.

智力的物理实例。

So it's like a robot or even just a thing.

所以它就像一个机器人，甚至只是一个东西。

I have a few other humanoid robot, little humanoid robot.

我还有其他几个人形机器人，小人形机器人。

Maybe I'll keep them on the table.

也许我会把它们放在桌面上。

It walks around.

它四处走动。

Or even just a mobile platform that can just turn around and look at you.

或者甚至只是一个可以转身看着你的移动平台。

It's like we mentioned with the pen, something that moves and can look at you.

就像我们提到的笔一样，是一个可以移动并且可以看着你的东西。

It's like that butter robot ...

就像那个黄油机器人...

that asks, what is my purpose?

那问，我的目的是什么？

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

That is really ...

那真是……

It's almost like art.

这几乎就像艺术一样。

There's something about a physical entity that moves around that's able to look at you and interact with you that makes you wonder what it means to be human.

一个四处移动的物理实体能够看着你并与你互动，这让你想知道作为人类意味着什么。

It like challenges you to think, if that thing looks like he has consciousness, what the hell am I?

这就像挑战你去思考，如果那个东西看起来有意识，我到底是什么？

And I like that feeling.

我喜欢这种感觉。

I think that's really useful for us.

我认为这对我们来说非常有用。

It's humbling for us humans, but that's less about research.

这对我们人类来说是令人谦卑的，但这与研究无关。

It's certainly less about business and more about exploring our own selves and challenging others to think about what makes them human.

当然，这与商业无关，更多的是探索我们自己并挑战他人思考是什么让他们成为人类。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I love this desire to share the delight of an interaction with a robot.

我喜欢分享与机器人互动的乐趣。

And as you describe it, I actually find myself starting to crave that because we all have those elements from childhood or from adulthood where we experience something, we want other people to feel that.

正如你所描述的，我实际上发现自己开始渴望这种感觉，因为我们都有童年或成年时期经历过的一些元素，我们希望其他人也能感受到这种感觉。

And I think that you're right, I think a lot of people are scared of AI.

我认为你是对的，我认为很多人都害怕人工智能。

I think a lot of people are scared of robots.

我认为很多人都害怕机器人。

My only experience of a robotic thing is my Roomba vacuum, where it goes about — it actually was pretty good at picking up Costello's hair when he would shed and I was grateful for it.

我对机器人的唯一体验是我的 Roomba 真空吸尘器，它实际上非常擅长在科斯特洛脱发时捡起他的头发，我对此很感激。

But then when I was on a call or something, and it would get caught on a wire or something, I would find myself getting upset with the Roomba.

但当我打电话或做其他事情时，它会被电线或其他东西夹住，我会发现自己对 Roomba 感到不安。

In that moment, I'm like, What are you doing?

在那一刻，我想，你在做什么？

And obviously it's just doing what it does.

显然它只是做它该做的事。

But that's a kind of mostly positive, slightly negative interaction.

但这是一种主要是积极的、略带消极的互动。

But what you're describing has so much more richness and layers of detail that I can only imagine what those relationships are like.

但你所描述的内容更加丰富和详细，我只能想象这些关系是什么样的。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

Well, there's just a quick comment.

好吧，只有一个简短的评论。

So I've currently in Boston; I have a bunch of Roombas from iRobot and I did this experiment.

我现在在波士顿；我有一堆 iRobot 的 Roombas，我做了这个实验。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Wait, how many Roombas?

等等，有多少个 Roombas？

Sounds like a fleet of Roombas.

听起来像是一群 Roombas。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

Yeah, so probably seven or eight.

是的，大概有七八个。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It's a lot of Roombas.

有很多 Roomba。

This place is very clean.

这个地方很干净。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

Well, I'm kind of waiting, The place we're currently in in Austin is way larger than I need, but I basically got it.

好吧，我有点等待，我们目前在奥斯汀的地方比我需要的要大得多，但我基本上得到了。

So to make sure I have room for robots.

所以要确保我有空间容纳机器人。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So you have these seven or so Roombas, you deploy all seven at once?

那么您有大约七个 Roombas，您会同时部署所有七个吗？

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

Oh no, I do different experiments with them.

哦不，我用它们做了不同的实验。

So one of the things I want to mention is — I think there was a YouTube video that inspired me to try this — is I got them to scream in pain and moan in pain whenever they were kicked or contacted.

所以我想提的一件事是——我想有一个 YouTube 视频激励我尝试这个——是我让他们在被踢或接触时痛苦地尖叫和呻吟。

And I did that experiment to see how I would feel.

我做了这个实验来看看我会有什么感觉。

I meant to do a YouTube video on it, but then it just seemed very cruel.

我本来想在 YouTube 上制作一个视频，但后来觉得这很残酷。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Did any Roomba rights activists come out?

有 Roomba 维权人士站出来吗？

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

I think if I release that video, I think is going to make me look insane.

我想如果我发布那个视频，我想会让我看起来很疯狂。

Which I know people know I'm already insane.

我知道人们知道我已经疯了。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Now you have to release the video.

现在你必须发布视频。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

I think maybe if I contextualize it by showing other robots, to show why this is fascinating, because ultimately I felt like they were human, almost immediately.

我想也许如果我通过展示其他机器人来将其置于情境中，以展示为什么这很有趣，因为最终我几乎立刻就觉得它们是人类。

And that display of pain was what did that.

正是这种痛苦的表现造成了这一点。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Giving them a voice.

给他们发声的机会。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

Giving them a voice, especially a voice of dislike, of pain.

给他们一种声音，尤其是一种不喜欢、痛苦的声音。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I have to connect you to my friend Eddie Chang.

我得帮您转接我的朋友艾迪·张。

He studies speech and language.

他研究言语和语言。

He's a neurosurgeon and we're lifelong friends.

他是一名神经外科医生，我们是终生的朋友。

He studies speech and language, but he describes some of these more primitive, visceral vocalizations: cries, groans, moans of delight, other sounds as well — use your imagination — as such powerful rudders for the emotions of other people.

他研究言语和语言，但他描述了一些更原始、发自内心的发声：哭泣、呻吟、喜悦的呻吟，还有其他声音——发挥你的想象力——作为控制他人情绪的强大舵。

And so I find it fascinating.

所以我觉得它很有趣。

I can't wait to see this video.

我迫不及待地想看这个视频。

So, is the video available online?

那么，这个视频可以在网上找到吗？

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

No, haven't recorded it.

没有，没记录过。

I just a bunch of Roombas that are able to scream in pain in my Boston place.

我只是一群在我波士顿的地方能痛苦尖叫的 Roomba。

So like people already as ...

所以就像人们已经一样...

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Next podcast episode with Lex maybe we'll have that one.

Lex 的下一集播客也许我们会有那个。

Who knows?

谁知道？

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

So the thing is people, I've noticed, because I talk so much about love, and it's really who I am.

我注意到，问题在于人，因为我谈论了很多关于爱的话题，而这就是我真正的样子。

I think they want to ...

我认为他们想要...

to a lot of people, it seems like there's got to be a dark person in there somewhere.

对很多人来说，似乎那里一定有一个黑暗的人。

And I thought if I release videos and Roombas screaming and they're like, yep, yep, that guy's definitely insane.

我想如果我发布视频和 Roombas 尖叫，他们会说，是的，是的，那家伙肯定疯了。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

What about shouts of glee and delight?

欢乐和喜悦的喊声又如何呢？

You could do that too, right?

你也可以这样做，对吧？

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

Well, I don't know how ...

嗯，我不知道怎么...

to me, delight is quiet, right?

对我来说，快乐就是安静，对吗？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You're Russian.

你是俄罗斯人。

Americans are much louder than Russians.

美国人比俄罗斯人大声得多。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

Yeah.

是的。

But I mean, unless you're talking about ...

但我的意思是，除非你在谈论...

I don't know how you would have sexual relationships with a Roomba.

我不知道你如何与 Roomba 发生性关系。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Well, I wasn't necessarily saying sexual delight.

嗯，我不一定是说性愉悦。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

Trust me, I tried.

相信我，我试过了。

I'm just kidding.

我只是在开玩笑。

That's a joke, Internet.

这是一个笑话，互联网。

But I was fascinated in the psychology of how little it took, because you mentioned you had a negative relationship with the Roomba ...

但我对它所花费的时间如此之少的心理学着迷，因为你提到你与 Roomba 有负面关系......

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Well, I'd find that ...

嗯，我会发现...

mostly I took it for granted.

大多数时候我认为这是理所当然的。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It just served me.

它只是为我服务。

It collected Costello's hair and then when it would do something I didn't like, I would get upset with it.

它会收集科斯特洛的头发，然后当它做一些我不喜欢的事情时，我会对它感到不安。

So that's not a good relationship.

所以这不是一个很好的关系。

It was taken for granted, and I would get upset and then I'd park it again, and I'd just like, you're in the corner.

这被认为是理所当然的，我会感到不安，然后我会再次停车，我只想，你在角落里。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

But there's a way to frame it being quite dumb as almost cute, almost connecting with it for its dumbness.

但有一种方法可以将它形容为非常愚蠢，几乎可爱，几乎与它的愚蠢联系在一起。

And I think that's an artificial intelligence problem.

我认为这是一个人工智能问题。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Interesting.

有趣。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

I think flaws should be a feature, not a bug.

我认为缺陷应该是一个功能，而不是一个错误。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So along the lines of this, the different sorts of relationships that one could have with robots and the fear, but also the ...

因此，沿着这一思路，人们可能与机器人建立不同类型的关系和恐惧，但也……

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

The different sorts of relationships that one could have with robots and the fear, but also some of the positive relationships that one could have.

人们可以与机器人建立不同类型的关系和恐惧，但也可以建立一些积极的关系。

There's so much dimensionality there, so much to explore.

那里有如此多的维度，有如此多的东西值得探索。

But power dynamics in relationships are very interesting because the obvious ones that ...

但关系中的权力动态非常有趣，因为显而易见的……

the unsophisticated view of this is, one, there's a master and a servant, but there's also manipulation.

对此的简单看法是，第一，有一个主人和一个仆人，但也存在操纵。

There's benevolent manipulation.

有仁慈的操纵。

Children do this with parents.

孩子们和父母一起做这个。

Puppies do this, puppies turn their head and look cute and maybe give out a little noise.

小狗会这样做，小狗会转过头，看起来很可爱，也许还会发出一点声音。

Kids coo and parents always think that they are, they're doing this because they love the parent.

孩子们咕咕叫，父母总是认为他们是这样的，他们这样做是因为他们爱父母。

But in many ways studies show that those coos are ways to extract the sorts of behaviors and expressions from the parent that they want.

但在许多方面，研究表明，这些咕咕声是从父母那里提取他们想要的各种行为和表达的方法。

The child doesn't know it's doing this, it's completely subconscious, but it's benevolent manipulation.

孩子并不知道自己在这么做，这完全是潜意识的，但却是善意的操纵。

So there's one version of fear of robots that I hear a lot about, that I think most people can relate to, where the robots take over, and they become the masters and we become the servants.

因此，我经常听到一种对机器人的恐惧，我认为大多数人都能体会到，机器人接管了一切，它们成为主人，而我们成为仆人。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But there could be another version that in certain communities that I'm certainly not a part of, but they call "topping from the bottom," where the robot is actually manipulating you into doing things, but you are under the belief that you are in charge, but actually they're in charge.

但在某些社区中可能还有另一个版本，我当然不是其中的一部分，但他们称之为“自下而上”，机器人实际上是在操纵你做事，但你相信你是负责人，但实际上是他们负责。

And so I think that's one that, if we could explore that for a second, you could imagine it wouldn't necessarily be bad, although it could lead to bad things.

所以我认为，如果我们能稍微探讨一下，你可以想象它不一定是坏事，尽管它可能会导致坏事。

The reason I want to explore this is I think people always default to the extreme.

我想探讨这个问题的原因是我认为人们总是默认走向极端。

The robots take over, and we're in little jail cells and they're out having fun and ruling the universe.

机器人接管了一切，我们被关在小牢房里，而他们却在外面玩乐并统治宇宙。

What sorts of manipulation can a robot potentially carry out?

机器人可以执行哪些类型的操作？

Good or bad?

好还是坏？

PART 3 OF 6 ENDS Lex Fridman:

第 3 部分（共 6 部分）结束 Lex Fridman：

Yeah, just so there's a lot of good and bad manipulation between humans, right?

是的，人类之间有很多好的和坏的操纵，对吗？

Just like you said.

就像你说的那样。

To me, especially like you said, topping from the bottom.

对我来说，尤其是像你说的，从底部开始。

Is that the term?

是这个词吗？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So I think someone from MIT told me that term.

所以我认为麻省理工学院的某个人告诉了我这个词。

Wasn't Lex.

不是莱克斯。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

I think, so first of all, there's power dynamics in bed and power dynamics in relationships and power dynamics on the street and in the work environment.

我认为，首先，床上有权力动态，人际关系中有权力动态，街上和工作环境中有权力动态。

Those are all very different.

这些都是非常不同的。

I think power dynamics can make human relationships, especially romantic relationships, fascinating and rich and fulfilling and exciting, and all those kinds of things.

我认为权力动态可以使人际关系，尤其是浪漫关系，变得迷人、丰富、充实、令人兴奋，等等。

So I don't think in themselves they're bad.

所以我不认为它们本身是坏的。

And the same goes with robots.

机器人也是如此。

I really love the idea that a robot would be a top or a bottom in terms of power dynamics.

我真的很喜欢机器人在动力动力学方面处于顶部或底部的想法。

And I think everybody should be aware of that.

我认为每个人都应该意识到这一点。

And the manipulation is not so much manipulation, but a dance of pulling away, push and pull and all those kinds of things.

这种操纵与其说是操纵，不如说是一种拉开、推拉以及诸如此类的舞蹈。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

In terms of control, I think we're very, very, very far away from AI systems that're able to lock us up, to lock us up in a ...

在控制方面，我认为我们距离能够将我们锁定、将我们锁定在……的人工智能系统还非常非常遥远。

to have so much control that we basically cannot live our lives in the way that we want.

拥有如此多的控制权，以至于我们基本上无法按照自己想要的方式生活。

I think there's, in terms of dangers of AI systems, there's much more dangers that have to do with autonomous weapon systems and all those kinds of things.

我认为，就人工智能系统的危险而言，还有更多与自主武器系统和所有此类事物有关的危险。

So the power dynamics as exercise in the struggle between nations and war and all those kinds of things.

因此，权力动态在国家之间的斗争、战争以及诸如此类的事情中发挥作用。

But in terms of personal relationships, I think power dynamics are a beautiful thing.

但就人际关系而言，我认为权力动态是一件美好的事情。

Now there's, of course, going to be all those kinds of discussions about consent and rights and all those kinds of things.

当然，现在将会有关于同意和权利以及所有这些事情的各种讨论。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Well here we're talking ...

好吧，我们正在谈论...

I always say in any discussion around this, if we need to define really the context, it always should be consensual, age-appropriate, context-appropriate, species-appropriate.

我总是说，在围绕这个问题的任何讨论中，如果我们需要真正定义背景，它总是应该是双方同意的、适合年龄的、适合背景的、适合物种的。

But now we're talking about human-robot interactions.

但现在我们谈论的是人机交互。

And so I guess that-

所以我猜——

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

No, I actually was trying to make a different point, which is I do believe that robots will have rights down the line.

不，我实际上是想表达不同的观点，那就是我确实相信机器人将拥有权利。

And I think in order for us to have deep, meaningful relationship with robots, we would have to consider them as entities in themselves that deserve respect.

我认为，为了让我们与机器人建立深厚、有意义的关系，我们必须将它们视为值得尊重的实体。

And that's a really interesting concept that I think people are starting to talk about a little bit more.

这是一个非常有趣的概念，我认为人们开始更多地谈论它。

But it's very difficult for us to understand how entities that are other than human, I mean the same is with dogs and other animals, can have rights on a level as humans.

但我们很难理解人类以外的实体，我的意思是狗和其他动物，如何能够拥有与人类同等的权利。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Well, yeah.

嗯，是的。

I mean we can't, and nor should we, do whatever we want with animals.

我的意思是我们不能也不应该对动物为所欲为。

We have a USDA, we have departments of agriculture that deal with animal care and use committees for research, for farming and ranching and all that.

我们有美国农业部，我们有农业部门负责动物护理，并利用委员会进行研究、农业和牧场等。

So when you first said it, I thought, wait, why would there be a bill of robotic rights?

所以当你第一次这么说时，我想，等等，为什么会有机器人权利法案？

But it absolutely makes sense in the context of everything we've been talking about up until now.

但就我们到目前为止所讨论的一切而言，它绝对是有意义的。

If you're willing, I'd love to talk about dogs, because you've mentioned dogs a couple times.

如果你愿意的话，我很想谈谈狗，因为你已经多次提到狗了。

A robot dog.

一只机器狗。

You had a biological dog.

你有一只亲生狗。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

Yeah, I had a Newfoundland named Homer for many years growing up.

是的，我有一只名叫荷马的纽芬兰犬长大了很多年。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

In Russia or in the U.S.?

在俄罗斯还是在美国？

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

In the United States.

在美国。

And he was over 200 pounds.

他的体重超过200磅。

That's a big dog.

那是一只大狗。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

That's a big dog.

那是一只大狗。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

If people know, people know Newfoundland.

如果人们知道，人们就会知道纽芬兰。

So he is this black dog that's really long hair and just a kind soul.

所以他就是这只黑狗，头发很长，灵魂很善良。

I think perhaps that's true for a lot of large dogs.

我想对于很多大型犬来说也许都是如此。

But he thought he was a small dog, so he moved like that.

但他以为自己是一只小狗，所以就那样行动了。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Was he your dog?

他是你的狗吗？

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So you had him since he was fairly young?

所以你从他很小的时候就拥有了他？

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

Since, yeah, since the very, very beginning to the very, very end.

从，是的，从非常非常开始到非常非常结束。

And one of the things, I mean he had this — we mentioned the Roombas — he had kindhearted dumbness about him.

其中一件事，我的意思是他有这个——我们提到了 Roombas——他有善良的愚蠢。

That was just overwhelming; it's part of the reason I named him Homer, because it's after Homer Simpson.

这简直是​​压倒性的；这是我给他命名为荷马的部分原因，因为它是以荷马·辛普森的名字命名的。

In case people are wondering which Homer I'm referring to, I'm not ...

如果人们想知道我指的是哪位荷马，我不是......

so that there's.

所以有。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Odyssey.

奥德赛。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

Yeah, exactly.

是的，完全正确。

There's a clumsiness that was just something that immediately led to a deep love for each other.

有一种笨拙的感觉，却立刻让彼此产生了深深的爱。

And one of the, I mean, he was always, it's the shared moments.

我的意思是，他一直都是其中之一，那就是共同的时刻。

He was always there for so many nights together.

这么多个夜晚他总是在一起。

That's a powerful thing about a dog that he was there through all the loneliness, through all the tough times, through the successes and all those kinds of things.

对于一只狗来说，这是一种强大的力量，它经历了所有的孤独、艰难的时刻、成功和所有这些事情。

And I remember, I mean that was a really moving moment for me.

我记得，我的意思是那对我来说是一个非常感人的时刻。

I still miss him to this day.

直到今天我仍然想念他。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

How long ago did he die?

他死了多久了？

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

Maybe 15 years ago.

也许是15年前。

So it's been a while, but it was the first time I've really experienced the feeling of death.

虽然已经过去了一段时间，但我还是第一次真正体会到死亡的感觉。

So what happened is he got cancer, and so he was dying slowly, and then at a certain point he couldn't get up anymore.

所以发生的事情是他得了癌症，所以他正在慢慢死去，然后在某个时刻他再也站不起来了。

There's a lot of things I could say here, that I struggle with, that maybe he suffered much longer than he needed to.

有很多事情我可以在这里说，我在挣扎，也许他遭受的痛苦比他需要的要长得多。

That's something I really think about a lot.

这是我经常思考的事情。

But I remember I had to take him to the hospital, and the nurses couldn't carry him.

但我记得我必须带他去医院，护士无法抱他。

So you talk about a 200-pound dog, and I was really into powerlifting at the time, and I remember they tried to figure out all these kinds of ways to, so in order to put him to sleep, they had to take him into a room.

所以你说的是一只200磅重的狗，我当时真的很喜欢举重，我记得他们试图找出所有这些方法，所以为了让他睡觉，他们不得不把他带进一个房间。

And so I had to carry him everywhere.

所以我必须带着他去任何地方。

And here's this dying friend of mine that I just had to, first of all, it's really difficult to carry somebody that heavy when they're not helping you out.

这是我的一位垂死的朋友，我必须这样做，首先，当他们不帮助你时，很难携带那么重的人。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

Yeah.

是的。

So I remember it was the first time seeing a friend laying there and seeing life drain from his body.

所以我记得那是我第一次看到一个朋友躺在那里，看到生命从他的身体里流失。

And that realization that we're here for a short time was made so real, that here's a friend that was there for me the week before, the day before, and now he's gone.

我们意识到我们在这里待的时间很短，这变得如此真实，前一周、前一天，有一位朋友在我身边，但现在他走了。

And that was, I don't know ...

那是，我不知道......

that spoke to the fact that you could be deeply connected with a dog.

这说明你可能与狗有很深的联系。

Also spoke to the fact that the shared moments together that led to that deep friendship will make life so amazing, but also spoke to the fact that death is a mother fucker.

还谈到了这样一个事实，即共同度过的时刻导致了深厚的友谊将使生活变得如此美妙，但也谈到了这样一个事实：死亡是个混蛋。

So I know you've lost Costello recently and you've been going-

所以我知道你最近失去了科斯特洛并且你一直在-

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And as you're saying this, I'm definitely fighting back the tears.

当你这么说的时候，我肯定强忍着泪水。

I thank you for sharing that.

我感谢你分享这一点。

I guess we're about to both cry over our Ted talks — that it was bound to happen just given when this is happening.

我想我们都会为我们的特德演讲而哭泣——考虑到这一切发生的时候，它就注定会发生。

Yeah.

是的。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

How long did you know that Costello was not doing well?

你知道科斯特洛表现不佳多久了？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Well, let's see, a year ago, during the start of, about six months into the pandemic, he started getting abscesses, and he was not ...

好吧，让我们看看，一年前，在大流行开始时，大约六个月后，他开始出现脓肿，但他并没有......

his behavior changed and something really changed.

他的行为发生了变化，某些事情确实发生了变化。

And then I put him on testosterone, because ...

然后我让他服用睾丸激素，因为......

which helped a lot of things.

这有很多帮助。

It certainly didn't cure everything, but it helped a lot of things.

它当然不能解决所有问题，但它对很多事情都有帮助。

He was dealing with joint pain, sleep issues.

他正在处理关节疼痛和睡眠问题。

And then it just became a very slow decline to the point where two, three weeks ago, he had a closet full of medication.

然后它就变得非常缓慢地下降到两三周前，他的衣柜里装满了药物。

I mean this dog was, it was like a pharmacy.

我的意思是这只狗就像一家药房。

It's amazing to me when I looked at it the other day, I still haven't cleaned up and removed all his things because I can't quite bring myself to do it.

那天我看到它时，我感到很惊讶，我仍然没有清理并移走他所有的东西，因为我不太愿意这样做。

But.

但。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

Do you think he was suffering?

你觉得他痛苦吗？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Well, so what happened was about a week ago, it was really just about a week ago, it's amazing.

嗯，发生的事情是大约一周前，真的只是大约一周前，太神奇了。

He was going up the stairs, and I saw him slip, and he was a big dog.

他正在上楼梯，我看到他滑倒了，他是一只大狗。

He wasn't 200 pounds, but he was about 90 pounds.

他的体重不是200磅，但大约有90磅。

But he's a bulldog, that's pretty big.

但他是一只斗牛犬，体型相当大。

And he was fit.

而且他很健康。

And then I noticed that he wasn't carrying a foot in the back, like it was injured.

然后我注意到他的后背没有一只脚，就像受伤了一样。

It had no feeling at all.

一点感觉都没有。

He never liked me to touch his hind paws.

他从来不喜欢我碰他的后爪。

And I could, that thing was just flopping there.

我可以，那东西只是在那里扑通扑通。

And then the vet found some spinal degeneration, and I was told that the next one would go.

然后兽医发现了一些脊柱退化，我被告知下一个会消失。

Did he suffer?

他受苦了吗？

Sure hope not.

当然希望不会。

But something changed in his eyes.

但他的眼中有些东西发生了变化。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

It's the eyes again.

又是眼睛了。

I know you and I spend long hours on the phone and talking about the eyes and what they convey and what they mean about internal states and, for sake of robots and biology of other kinds.

我知道你和我花了很长时间在电话上谈论眼睛以及它们传达的内容以及它们对内部状态的含义，以及为了机器人和其他类型的生物学。

But.

但。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

Do you think something about him was gone in his eyes?

你觉得他的眼睛里有什么东西消失了吗？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I think he was real ...

我认为他是真实的...

here I am anthropomorphizing.

我在这里拟人化。

I think he was realizing that one of his great joys in life, which was to walk and sniff and pee on things.

我认为他意识到他生命中最大的乐趣之一就是走路、嗅东西、在东西上撒尿。

This dog ...

这只狗...

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

The fundamentals.

基本原理。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Loved to pee on things.

喜欢在东西上撒尿。

It was amazing.

太棒了。

I wondered where he put it.

我想知道他把它放在哪里。

He was like a reservoir of urine.

他就像一个蓄尿池。

It was incredible.

这太不可思议了。

I'd think, Oh, that's it.

我想，哦，就这样吧。

He's just, he'd put one drop on the 50 millionth plant, and then we get to the 50 millionth and one plant and he'd just have, leave a puddle.

他只是，他会在第 5000 万株植物上滴一滴，然后我们到达第 5000 万株植物时，他只会留下一个水坑。

And here I am talking about Costello peeing.

我在这里谈论的是科斯特洛撒尿。

He was losing that ability to stand up and do that.

他正在失去站起来做这件事的能力。

He was falling down while he was doing that.

当他这样做的时候，他摔倒了。

And I do think he started to realize, and the passage was easy and peaceful.

我确实认为他开始意识到，整个过程是轻松而平静的。

But I'll say this; I'm not ashamed to say it.

但我要这么说；我并不羞于这么说。

I mean, I wake up every morning since then, just — I don't even make the conscious decision to allow myself to cry.

我的意思是，从那以后我每天早上醒来，只是——我什至没有做出有意识的决定让自己哭泣。

I wake up crying and I'm fortunately able to make it through the day, thanks to the great support of my friends and you and my family.

我哭着醒来，幸运的是，感谢我的朋友、你和我的家人的大力支持，我能够度过这一天。

But I miss him, man.

但我想念他，伙计。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

You miss him?

你想念他吗？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah, I miss him.

是的，我想念他。

And I feel like he ...

而且我感觉他...

Homer, Costello, the relationship to one's dog is so specific, but.

荷马、科斯特洛，与狗的关系是如此具体，但是。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

That party is gone.

那个聚会已经消失了。

That's the hard thing.

这才是最困难的事情。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

What I think is different is that I made the mistake, I think, or I hope it was a good decision, but sometimes I think I made the mistake of, I brought Costello a little bit to the world through the podcast, through posting about him.

我认为不同的是，我认为我犯了一个错误，或者我希望这是一个好的决定，但有时我认为我犯了一个错误，我通过播客，通过发布有关他的帖子，将科斯特洛带到了世界上。

I anthropomorphized about him in public.

我在公开场合把他拟人化了。

Let's be honest, I have no idea what his mental life was or his relationship to me.

说实话，我不知道他的精神生活是什么，也不知道他和我的关系。

And I'm just exploring all this for the first time because he was my first dog, but I raised him since he was seven weeks.

我只是第一次探索这一切，因为他是我的第一只狗，但我从他七周大的时候就养大了他。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

Yeah, you got to hold it together.

是的，你必须把它放在一起。

I noticed the episode you released on Monday, you mentioned Costello.

我注意到你周一发布的那一集，你提到了科斯特洛。

You brought him back to life for me for that brief moment.

在那短暂的时刻，你让他复活了。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah, but he's gone.

是的，但他已经走了。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

Well that's the, he's going to be gone for a lot of people too.

好吧，对于很多人来说，他也会离开。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Well, this is what I'm struggling with.

嗯，这就是我正在努力解决的问题。

I think that maybe ...

我想也许...

you're pretty good at this.

你在这方面很擅长。

Have you done this before?

你以前做过这个吗？

This is the challenge is, actually part of me ...

这就是挑战，实际上是我的一部分......

I know how to take care of myself pretty well.

我非常知道如何照顾自己。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Not perfectly, but pretty well.

不完美，但相当不错。

And I have good support.

我有很好的支持。

I do worry a little bit about how it's going to land and how people will feel.

我确实有点担心它会如何落地以及人们会有什么感受。

I'm concerned about their internalization.

我担心他们的内化。

So that's something I'm still iterating on.

所以这是我仍在反复讨论的事情。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

And you have to, they have to watch you struggle, which is fascinating.

你必须这样做，他们必须看着你挣扎，这很有趣。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right.

对。

And I've mostly been shielding them from this.

我基本上一直在保护他们免受这种影响。

But what would make me happiest is if people would internalize some of Costello's best traits, and his best traits were that he was incredibly tough.

但最让我高兴的是，如果人们能够内化科斯特洛的一些最好的特质，而他最好的特质就是他非常坚强。

I mean, he was a 22-inch-neck bulldog, the whole thing.

我的意思是，他是一只 22 英寸脖子的斗牛犬，整个事情。

He was just born that way, but was, what was so beautiful is that his toughness is never what he rolled forward.

他生来就是这样，但是，美妙之处在于，他的坚韧从来都不是他前进的动力。

It was just how sweet and kind he was.

他是多么的可爱和善良。

And so if people can take that, then there's a win in there someplace.

因此，如果人们能够接受这一点，那么就在某个地方取得了胜利。

So.

所以。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

I think there's some ways in which he should probably live on in your podcast too.

我认为在某些方面他也应该在你的播客中继续存在。

You should, I mean, it's such ...

我的意思是，你应该这样...

one of the things I loved about his role in your podcast is that he brought so much joy to you.

我喜欢他在你的播客中扮演的角色的一件事是他给你带来了很多快乐。

We mentioned the robots.

我们提到了机器人。

I think that's such a powerful thing, to bring that joy into, allowing yourself to experience that joy, to bring that joy to others, to share it with others.

我认为这是一件非常强大的事情，将这种快乐带入，让自己体验这种快乐，将这种快乐带给他人，与他人分享。

That's really powerful.

那真是太强大了。

I mean not to, this is the Russian thing, is it touched me when Louis C.K.

我的意思不是，这是俄罗斯的事情，当 Louis C.K.

had that moment that I keep thinking about in his show "Louie," where an old man was criticizing Louie for whining about breaking up with his girlfriend.

我一直在回忆他的节目《路易》中的那一刻，一位老人批评路易抱怨与女友分手。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

And he was saying the most beautiful thing about love.

他说出了关于爱情最美丽的事情。

They made a song that's catchy; now that's now making me feel horrible saying it, but is the loss.

他们创作了一首朗朗上口的歌曲；现在说出来让我感觉很糟糕，但这就是损失。

The loss really also is making you realize how much that person, that dog, meant to you, and allowing yourself to feel that loss and not run away from that loss is really powerful.

失去也确实让你意识到那个人、那只狗对你有多重要，让自己感受到这种失去而不是逃避这种失去是非常强大的。

And in some ways, that's also sweet, just like the love was.

从某些方面来说，这也是甜蜜的，就像爱情一样。

The loss is also sweet because you know that you felt a lot for that, for your friend.

这种失去也是甜蜜的，因为你知道你为此、为你的朋友感到很多。

And they continue bringing that joy.

他们继续带来这种快乐。

I think it would be amazing to the podcast.

我认为这对播客来说会很棒。

I hope to do the same with robots or whatever else is the source of joy.

我希望对机器人或其他任何能带来快乐的东西也能做同样的事情。

And maybe, do you think about one day getting another dog?

也许，你想过有一天再养一只狗吗？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

In time.

及时。

You're hitting on all the key buttons here.

您正在点击这里的所有关键按钮。

I want that to ...

我想要那个...

we're thinking about ways to immortalize Costello in a way that's real.

我们正在考虑如何以真实的方式让科斯特洛永垂不朽。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

Nice.

不错。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Not just creating some little logo or something silly.

不仅仅是创建一些小标志或一些愚蠢的东西。

Costello, much like David Goggins, is a person, but Goggins also has grown into kind of a verb.

科斯特洛就像大卫·戈金斯一样，是一个人，但戈金斯也已经成长为一种动词。

You're going to Goggins this, or you're going to ...

你要去戈金斯这个，或者你要去......

and there's an adjective that's extreme.

还有一个形容词是极端的。

I think that for me, Costello was all those things.

我认为对我来说，科斯特洛就是这些东西。

He was a being, he was his own being.

他是一个存在，他是他自己的存在。

He was a noun, a verb and an adjective.

他是一个名词、一个动词和一个形容词。

And he had this amazing superpower that I wish I could get, which was this ability to get everyone else to do things for you without doing a damn thing.

他拥有我希望我能拥有的惊人的超能力，那就是让其他人为你做事而不做任何该死的事情的能力。

The Costello effect, as I call it.

我称之为科斯特洛效应。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

So as an idea, I hope he lives on.

所以作为一个想法，我希望他能活下去。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yes.

是的。

Thank you for that.

谢谢你。

This actually has been very therapeutic for me.

这实际上对我来说非常有治疗作用。

Which actually brings me to a question.

这实际上让我想到一个问题。

We're friends, we're not just co-scientist-colleagues working on a project together, and in the world, that's somewhat similar.

我们是朋友，我们不仅仅是共同致力于一个项目的科学家同事，而且在世界上，这有点相似。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

Just two dogs.

只有两只狗。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Just two dogs basically.

基本上只有两只狗。

But let's talk about friendship because I think that, I certainly know as a scientist that there are elements that are very lonely of the scientific pursuit.

但我们来谈谈友谊吧，因为我认为，作为一名科学家，我当然知道科学追求中有些因素是非常孤独的。

There are elements of many pursuits that are lonely.

许多追求都有孤独的成分。

Music, math always seemed to me, they're like the loneliest people.

在我看来，音乐、数学总是最孤独的人。

Who knows if that's true or not.

谁知道这是真的还是假的。

Also, people work in teams, and sometimes people are surrounded by people, interacting with people, and they feel very lonely.

而且，人都是团队工作的，有时人周围都是人，与人交往，也会感到很孤独。

But for me, and I think as well for you, friendship is an incredibly strong force in making one feel like certain things are possible or worth reaching for.

但对我来说，我想对你来说也是如此，友谊是一种令人难以置信的强大力量，它让人们觉得某些事情是可能的或值得实现的。

Maybe even making us compulsively reach for them.

甚至可能让我们不由自主地伸手去拿它们。

So when you were growing up, you grew up in Russia until what age?

那么当你长大的时候，你是在俄罗斯长大到几岁的？

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

13.

13.

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And then you moved directly to Philadelphia?

然后你直接搬到费城？

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

To Chicago.

去芝加哥。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Chicago.

芝加哥。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

And then Philadelphia and then San Francisco and Boston, and so on.

然后是费城、旧金山和波士顿，等等。

But really to Chicago.

但真的到了芝加哥。

That's where I went to high school.

那是我上高中的地方。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Do you have siblings?

你有兄弟姐妹吗？

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

Older brother.

哥哥。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Most people don't know that.

大多数人不知道这一点。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

Yeah, he is a very different person, but somebody I definitely look up to.

是的，他是一个非常不同的人，但我绝对尊敬的人。

So he's a wild man.

所以他是个野人。

He's extrovert.

他性格外向。

He was into ...

他陷入了...

so he's also a scientist, a bioengineer.

所以他也是一位科学家、生物工程师。

But he, when we were growing up, he was the person who did, drank and did every drug but also was the life of the party.

但他，在我们成长的过程中，他是那个吸毒、喝酒、吸毒的人，也是聚会的主角。

And I just thought he was — when your older brother, five years older — he was the coolest person, that I always wanted to be him.

我只是觉得他——当你哥哥大五岁的时候——他是最酷的人，我一直想成为他。

So that, he definitely had a big influence.

所以说，他的影响力绝对是很大的。

But I think for me, in terms of friendship growing up, I had one really close friend.

但我认为对我来说，就成长过程中的友谊而言，我有一个非常亲密的朋友。

And then when I came here, I had another close friend, but I'm very, I believe, I don't know if I believe, but I draw a lot of strength from deep connections with other people and just a small number of people, just a really small number of people.

然后当我来到这里时，我有另一个亲密的朋友，但我非常，我相信，我不知道我是否相信，但我从与其他人以及一小部分人的深厚联系中汲取了很多力量，只是一小部分人。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

That's why when I moved to this country, I was really surprised how there were these large groups of "friends," but the depth of connection was not there at all from my, sort of, perspective.

这就是为什么当我搬到这个国家时，我真的很惊讶这里有一大群“朋友”，但从我的角度来看，联系的深度根本不存在。

Now I moved to the suburb of Chicago, was Naperville.

现在我搬到了芝加哥郊区，就是内珀维尔。

It's more like middle class, maybe upper middle class.

它更像是中产阶级，也许是上层中产阶级。

So it's people that cared more about material possessions than deep human connection.

因此，人们更关心物质财富，而不是深厚的人际关系。

So that added to the thing.

所以这增加了事情。

But I drove ...

但我开车...

more meaning than almost anything else was from friendship.

友谊比任何其他事情都更有意义。

Early on, I had a best friend, his name was, his name is Yura.

早些时候，我有一个最好的朋友，他的名字叫尤拉。

I don't know how to say it in English.

我不知道用英语怎么说。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

How do you say it in Russian?

你用俄语怎么说？

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

Yura.

尤拉。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

What's his last name?

他姓什么？

Do you remember?

你是否记得？

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

Mirkulov.

米尔库洛夫。

Yura Mirkulov.

尤拉·米尔库洛夫。

So we just spent all our time together.

所以我们就这样度过了所有的时间。

There's also a group of friends, I don't know, it's like eight guys, in Russia.

还有一群朋友，我不知道，大概有八个人，在俄罗斯。

Growing up it's like parents didn't care if you're coming back at a certain hour.

在成长过程中，就像父母不在乎你是否在某个时间回来一样。

So we would spend all day, all night, just playing soccer, usually called football, and just talking about life and all those kinds of things.

所以我们会整天整夜地踢足球，通常称为橄榄球，然后谈论生活和诸如此类的事情。

Even at that young age.

即使在那么年轻的时候。

I think people in Russia and Soviet Union grow up much quicker.

我认为俄罗斯和苏联的人成长得更快。

I think the education system at the university level is world class in the United States, in terms of really creating really big, powerful minds.

我认为美国的大学教育体系在培养真正强大的人才方面是世界一流的。

At least it used to be.

至少以前是这样。

But I think that they aspire to that.

但我认为他们渴望这一点。

But the education system for younger kids in the Soviet Union was incredible.

但苏联年幼孩子的教育体系令人难以置信。

They did not treat us as kids.

他们没有把我们当作孩子对待。

The level of literature — Tolstoy, Dostoevsky.

文学水平——托尔斯泰、陀思妥耶夫斯基。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

When you were just a small child?

当你还是个小孩子的时候？

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Amazing.

太棒了。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

And the level of mathematics, and you are made to feel like shit if you're not good at mathematics.

还有数学水平，如果你数学不好，你就会感觉自己很糟糕。

I think in this country there's more, especially young kids, because they're so cute, they're being babied.

我认为在这个国家有更多的人，尤其是小孩子，因为他们太可爱了，他们正在被照顾。

We only start to really push adults later in life.

我们只是在晚年才开始真正推动成年人。

So if you want to be the best in the world at this, then you get to be pushed.

因此，如果你想在这方面成为世界上最好的，那么你就会受到推动。

But we were pushed at a young age.

但我们在很小的时候就被逼迫了。

Everybody was pushed and that brought out the best in people.

每个人都受到推动，这激发了人们最好的一面。

I think it really forced people to discover, discover themselves in the Goggins style, but also discover what they're actually passionate about and what they're not.

我认为这确实迫使人们去发现，以戈金斯的风格发现自己，同时也发现他们真正热衷于什么，不热衷于什么。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Was this true for boys and girls?

对于男孩和女孩来说都是这样吗？

Were they pushed equally there?

他们被平等地推到那里了吗？

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

Yeah, they were pushed.

是的，他们被推了。

Yeah, they were pushed equally, I would say.

是的，我想说，他们受到了同等的推动。

Obviously there was more, not obviously, but there, at least from my memories, more of what's the right way to put it?

显然还有更多，不明显，但至少从我的记忆来看，还有更多，正确的表达方式是什么？

But there was gender roles, but not in a negative connotation.

但性别角色确实存在，但并没有负面含义。

It was the red dress versus the suit and tie kind of connotation, which is like there's guys lifting heavy things and girls creating beautiful art and there's-

这是红色连衣裙与西装和领带之类的内涵，就像男人举起重物，女孩创造美丽的艺术，还有——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

A more traditional view of general, more 1950s, '60s.

更传统的一般观点，更多的是 20 世纪 50 年代、60 年代。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

But we didn't think in terms of, at least at that age, in terms of roles and then homemaker, something like that, or, no, it was more about what people care about.

但我们并没有考虑，至少在那个年龄段，没有考虑角色，然后考虑家庭主妇之类的事情，或者，不，更多的是人们关心的事情。

Girls cared about this set of things and guys cared about this set of things.

女生关心这一套，男生也关心这一套。

I think mathematics and engineering was something that guys cared about, and at least my perception of that time.

我认为数学和工程是人们关心的事情，至少我当时的看法是这样。

And then girls created about, girls cared about beauty.

然后女孩创造了，女孩关心美丽。

So guys want to create machines, girls want to create beautiful stuff.

所以男人想要创造机器，女孩想要创造美丽的东西。

And now of course that I don't take that forward in some kind of philosophy of life, but it's just the way I grew up and the way I remember it.

当然，现在我不会在某种生活哲学中推进这一点，但这只是我成长的方式和我记忆的方式。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

But all, everyone worked hard.

但所有人都努力了。

The value of hard work was instilled in everybody.

努力工作的价值观被灌输给每个人。

And through that, I think it's a little bit of hardship.

通过这一点，我认为这有点困难。

Of course, also economically, everybody was poor, especially with the collapse of the Soviet Union.

当然，在经济上，每个人都很穷，特别是在苏联解体后。

There's poverty everywhere.

到处都是贫困。

You didn't notice it as much, but there was, because there's not much material possessions, there was a huge value placed on human connection, just meeting with neighbors.

你没有注意到这一点，但确实存在，因为物质财富不多，所以人与人之间的联系，只是与邻居的会面，就具有巨大的价值。

Everybody knew each other.

每个人都互相认识。

We lived in an apartment building very different than you have in the United States these days.

我们住在一栋公寓楼里，与现在在美国的公寓楼非常不同。

Everybody knew each other, you would get together, drink vodka, smoke cigarettes, and play guitar and sing sad songs about life.

每个人都互相认识，你们会聚在一起，喝伏特加，抽烟，弹吉他，唱关于生活的悲伤歌曲。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

What's with the sad songs and the Russian thing?

悲伤的歌曲和俄罗斯的东西是怎么回事？

I mean I ...

我的意思是我...

Russians that do express joy from time to time.

俄罗斯人确实时不时地表达喜悦。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

Yeah, they do.

是的，他们确实这么做了。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Certainly you do.

当然你知道。

But what do you think that's about?

但你认为那是关于什么的？

Is it because it's cold there, but it's cold other places too?

是因为那里冷，其他地方也冷吗？

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

I think, so first of all, the Soviet Union, the echoes of World War II and the millions and millions and millions of people that, civilians, that were slaughtered, and also starvation is there.

我认为，首先是苏联，第二次世界大战的回响，以及数以百万计的平民被屠杀和饥饿的情况。

So the echoes of that, of the ideas, the literature, the art is there.

因此，思想、文学、艺术的回声就在那里。

That's grandparents, that's parents, that's all there.

那是祖父母，那是父母，就这些。

So that contributes to it.

所以这有助于它。

That life can be absurdly, unexplainably, cruel.

生活可能是荒谬的、无法解释的、残酷的。

At any moment everything can change.

任何时候一切都可能改变。

So that's in there.

所以就在那里。

Then I think there's an empowering aspect to finding beauty in suffering that then everything else is beautiful too.

然后我认为在苦难中寻找美有一个强有力的方面，那就是其他一切也都是美的。

If you just linger, or it's like why you meditate on death.

如果你只是徘徊，或者就像你冥想死亡的原因一样。

It's like if you just think about the worst possible case and find beauty in that, then everything else is beautiful too.

就好像如果你只考虑最坏的情况并从中发现美，那么其他一切也都是美的。

And so you write songs about the dark stuff and that somehow helps you deal with whatever comes.

所以你写一些关于黑暗事物的歌曲，这在某种程度上可以帮助你应对即将发生的一切。

There's a hopelessness to the Soviet Union that inflation, all those kinds of things where people were sold dreams and never delivered.

对苏联来说，通货膨胀是一种绝望，所有这些人们被出售梦想却从未实现的事情。

So there's ...

所以有...

if you don't sing songs about sad things, you're going to become cynical about this world.

如果你不唱关于悲伤事情的歌曲，你就会对这个世界变得愤世嫉俗。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Interesting.

有趣。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

So they don't want to give into cynicism.

所以他们不想屈服于愤世嫉俗。

Now, a lot of people did, but that, it's the battle against cynicism.

现在，很多人都这么做了，但这是一场与愤世嫉俗的斗争。

One of the things that may be common in Russia is kind of cynicism about, if I told you the thing I said earlier about dreaming about robots, it's very common for people to dismiss that dream, of saying, now that's not, that's too wild.

在俄罗斯可能常见的事情之一是一种愤世嫉俗，如果我告诉你我之前说过的关于梦想机器人的事情，人们很容易驳回这个梦想，说，现在不是，那太疯狂了。

Who else do you know that did that?

你还知道谁这样做过吗？

Or you want to start a podcast?

或者您想开始播客？

Who else?

还有谁？

Nobody's making money on podcasts.

没有人通过播客赚钱。

Why do you want to start a podcast?

你为什么想开始播客？

That kind of mindset I think is quite common, which is why I would say entrepreneurship in Russia is still not very good.

我认为这种心态很普遍，这就是为什么我说俄罗斯的创业仍然不是很好。

Which to be a business, to be an entrepreneur, you have to dream big, and you have to have others around you, friends and support group that make you dream big.

成为一家企业、成为一名企业家，你必须有远大的梦想，并且你周围必须有其他人、朋友和支持团体来支持你实现远大的梦想。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

But if you don't give into cynicism and appreciate the beauty in the unfairness of life, the absurd unfairness of life, then I think it just makes you appreciative of everything.

但如果你不屈服于愤世嫉俗，并欣赏生活的不公平、生活的荒谬不公平中的美丽，那么我认为这只会让你欣赏一切。

It's a prerequisite for gratitude.

这是感恩的前提。

And so yeah, I think that instilled in me ability to appreciate everything.

所以，是的，我认为这灌输了我欣赏一切的能力。

Just like everything.

就像一切一样。

Everything's amazing.

一切都太棒了。

And then also there's a culture of romantic, of romanticizing everything.

还有一种浪漫的文化，让一切都浪漫化。

It's almost like romantic relationships, where we're very like soap opera like.

这几乎就像浪漫的关系，我们就像肥皂剧一样。

It's very over-the-top dramatic.

这是非常戏剧性的。

And I think that was instilled in me too.

我认为这也被灌输给了我。

Not only do I appreciate everything about life, but I get emotional about it.

我不仅欣赏生活中的一切，而且对生活充满感情。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

In a sense I get a visceral feeling of joy for everything.

从某种意义上说，我对一切都感到发自内心的喜悦。

And same with friends or people of the opposite sex.

对于朋友或异性也是如此。

There's a deep emotional connection there that, that's way too dramatic to, I guess relative to what the actual moment is.

那里有一种深刻的情感联系，我想相对于实际的时刻来说，这太戏剧化了。

But I derive so much deep, like dramatic, joy from so many things in life, and I think I would attribute that to the upbringing in Russia.

但我从生活中的许多事情中获得了如此深刻的、戏剧性的快乐，我想我会把这归因于在俄罗斯的成长。

But the thing that sticks most of all is the friendship.

但最重要的是友谊。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

And I've now since then had one other friend like that in the United States.

从那时起，我在美国又多了一位这样的朋友。

He lives in Chicago, his name is Matt, and slowly here and there accumulating really fascinating people.

他住在芝加哥，他的名字叫马特，慢慢地到处积累了真正迷人的人。

But I'm very selective with that.

但我对此非常有选择性。

Funny enough, the few times, it's not few, it's a lot of times now interacting with Joe Rogan.

有趣的是，现在与乔·罗根互动的次数不是很少，而是很多次。

It sounds surreal to say, but there's a kindred spirit there.

这听起来很超现实，但那里有志趣相投的人。

I've connected with him and there's been people like that.

我和他有过联系，也有这样的人。

Also in the grappling sports that I've really connected with.

还有我真正感兴趣的格斗运动。

I've actually struggled, which is why I'm so, I'm so glad to be your friend, is I've struggled to connect with scientists.

我实际上一直在挣扎，这就是为什么我如此，我很高兴成为你的朋友，因为我一直在努力与科学家建立联系。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

They can be a little bit wooden sometimes.

有时它们可能有点木头。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Even the biologists.

甚至生物学家。

I mean, one thing that I'm, well I'm so struck by the fact that you work with robots, you're an engineer, AI science technology, and that all sounds like hardware.

我的意思是，有一件事让我非常震惊，因为你与机器人一起工作，你是一名工程师，人工智能科学技术，而所有这些听起来都像硬件。

But what you're describing, and I know is true about you, is this deep emotional life and this resonance, and it's really wonderful.

但你所描述的，我知道你所描述的都是真实的，是这种深刻的情感生活和这种共鸣，这真的很棒。

I actually think it's one of the reasons why.

我实际上认为这是原因之一。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

resonance.

共振。

It's really wonderful.

真是太棒了。

I actually think it's one of the reasons why so many people, scientists and otherwise, have gravitated towards you and your podcast, is because you hold both elements.

事实上，我认为这就是为什么这么多人、科学家和其他人被你和你的播客所吸引的原因之一，因为你拥有这两个要素。

In Herman Hesse's book, I don't know if you read "Narcissus and Goldmund," it's about these elements of the logical, rational mind and the emotional mind and how those are woven together.

在赫尔曼·黑塞的书中，我不知道你是否读过《水仙与戈德蒙》，它是关于逻辑、理性思维和感性思维的这些元素以及它们如何交织在一起的。

If people haven't read it, they should.

如果人们还没有读过，他们应该读一下。

You embody the full picture.

你体现了整个画面。

And I think that's so much of what draws people to you.

我认为这就是你吸引人们的原因。

PART 4 OF 6 ENDS Lex Fridman:

第 4 部分（共 6 部分）结束 Lex Fridman：

I've read every Hermann Hesse book, by the way.

顺便说一下，我读过赫尔曼·黑塞的每一本书。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

As usual, I've done about nine percent of what Lex has...

像往常一样，我已经完成了 Lex 所做的大约百分之九......

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

Stop it.

停止吧。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

No, it's true.

不，这是真的。

You mentioned Joe, who is a phenomenal human being, not just for his amazing accomplishments but for how he shows up to the world one on one.

你提到乔，他是一个非凡的人，不仅因为他惊人的成就，还因为他如何一对一地向世界展示。

I think I heard him say the other day on an interview, he said, "There is no public or private version" of him.

我想我前几天在接受采访时听到他说，“他没有公开或私人版本”。

He's like, "This is me." It was beautiful.

他说：“这就是我。”很漂亮。

He said, "I'm like the fish that got through the net.

他说：“我就像漏网之鱼。

There is no onstage/offstage version." And you're absolutely right.

没有台上/台下的版本。”你是完全正确的。

I have a question, actually, about ...

事实上，我有一个问题，关于...

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

But that's a really good point about public and private life.

但这对于公共和私人生活来说确实是一个很好的观点。

He was a huge ...

他是一个巨大的...

if I could just comment real quick.

如果我能快速发表评论就好了。

I've been a fan of Joe for a long time.

我长期以来一直是乔的粉丝。

But he's been an inspiration to not have any difference between public and private life.

但他一直激励人们不要在公共生活和私人生活之间存在任何区别。

I actually had a conversation with Naval about this, and he said that you can't have a rich life, exciting, life if you're the same person publicly and privately.

实际上我和 Naval 就这个问题进行过交谈，他说如果你在公开场合和私下都是同一个人，你就不可能拥有丰富、令人兴奋的生活。

And I think I understand that idea, but I don't agree with it.

我想我理解这个想法，但我不同意。

I think it's really fulfilling and exciting to be the same person privately and publicly, with very few exceptions.

我认为在私下和公开场合成为同一个人确实令人感到满足和兴奋，几乎没有例外。

Now that said, I don't have any really strange sex kinks.

话虽如此，我并没有任何奇怪的性癖好。

I feel like I can be open with basically everything.

我觉得我基本上可以对所有事情都持开放态度。

I don't have anything I'm ashamed of.

我没有什么可羞耻的。

There's some things that could be perceived poorly, like the screaming Roombas, but I'm not ashamed of them.

有些东西可能很难被察觉，比如尖叫的 Roomba，但我并不为它们感到羞耻。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

I just have to present them in the right context.

我只需要在正确的背景下呈现它们即可。

But there's freedom to being the same person in private as in public.

但私下和公共场合可以自由地扮演同一个人。

And Joe made me realize that, that you can be that.

乔让我意识到，你可以成为那样的人。

And also to be kind to others.

并且还要善待他人。

It sounds kind of absurd, but I really always enjoyed being good to others.

这听起来有点荒谬，但我真的很喜欢对别人好。

Just being kind towards others.

只是善待他人。

But I always felt like the world didn't want me to be.

但我总觉得这个世界不希望我成为这样的人。

There's so much negativity when I was growing up, just around people.

在我成长的过程中，周围的人都充满了消极情绪。

If you actually just notice how people talk, from complaining about the weather, this could be just the big cities that I visited, but there's a general negativity, and positivity is kind of suppressed.

如果你真的注意到人们如何谈论，从抱怨天气，这可能只是我访问过的大城市，但普遍存在消极情绪，积极性受到抑制。

One, you're not seen as very intelligent.

第一，你被认为不是很聪明。

And two, you're seen as a little bit of a weirdo.

第二，你被视为有点怪人。

And so I always felt like I had to hide that.

所以我总觉得我必须隐藏这一点。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

And what Joe made me realize, one, I could be fully just the same person, private and public.

乔让我意识到，第一，我可以完全是同一个人，无论私下还是公开。

And two, I can embrace being kind in the way that I like, in the way I know how to do.

第二，我可以以我喜欢的方式、以我知道该怎么做的方式拥抱友善。

And so for me, on Twitter or publicly, whenever I say stuff, that means saying stuff simply, almost to the point of cliche.

所以对我来说，无论是在推特上还是公开场合，每当我说些什么时，这意味着说的话很简单，几乎到了陈词滥调的地步。

And I have the strength now to say it, even if I'm being mocked.

现在我有力量说出来，即使我被嘲笑。

You know what I mean?

你知道我的意思？

It's okay.

没关系。

Everything's going to be okay.

一切都会好起来的。

Some people will think you're dumb.

有些人会认为你很蠢。

They're probably right.

他们可能是对的。

The point is, just enjoy being yourself.

重点是，享受做你自己。

And Joe more than almost anybody else, because he's so successful at it, inspired me to do that.

乔比其他任何人都更能激励我这样做，因为他在这方面非常成功。

Be kind and be the same person, private and public.

保持友善，无论在私人还是公共场合都保持同一个人。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I love it.

我喜欢它。

And I love the idea that authenticity doesn't have to be oversharing.

我喜欢这样的想法：真实性不必过度分享。

That, it doesn't mean you reveal every detail of your life.

这并不意味着你要透露你生活的每一个细节。

It's a way of being true to an essence of oneself.

这是忠于自我本质的一种方式。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

There's never a feeling, when you deeply think and introspect, that you're hiding something from the world or you're being dishonest in some fundamental way.

当你深入思考和反省时，永远不会有一种感觉，你在向世界隐瞒什么，或者你在某些根本上不诚实。

So, that's truly liberating.

所以，这才是真正的解放。

It allows you to think.

它让你思考。

It allows you to think freely, to speak freely, just to be freely.

它让你自由思考，自由发言，自由自在。

That said, it's not like there's still not a responsibility to be the best version of yourself.

也就是说，并不是说仍然没有责任成为最好的自己。

So I'm very careful with the way I say something.

所以我说话的方式非常小心。

So the whole point, it's not so simple to express the spirit that's inside you with words.

所以总而言之，用语言表达你内心的精神并不是那么简单。

I mean, some people are much better than others.

我的意思是，有些人比其他人好得多。

I struggle.

我挣扎着。

Oftentimes when I say something and I hear myself say it, it sounds really dumb and not at all what I meant.

很多时候，当我说某事时，我听到自己这么说，听起来很愚蠢，根本不是我的意思。

So that's the responsibility you have.

这就是你的责任。

It's not just being the same person publicly and privately means you can just say whatever the hell.

这不仅仅是在公开场合和私下里是同一个人就意味着你可以随便说些什么。

It means there's still responsibility to try to express who you truly are.

这意味着仍然有责任尝试表达你的真实身份。

And that's hard.

这很难。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It is hard.

这很难。

And I think that, so we have this pressure, all people.

我认为，所以我们所有人都面临着这种压力。

When I say we, I mean all humans, and maybe robots too, feel this pressure to be able to express ourselves in that one moment, in that one form.

当我说我们时，我指的是所有人类，也许还有机器人，都感受到了能够在那一刻、以某种形式表达自己的压力。

And it is beautiful when somebody, for instance, can capture some essence of love or sadness or anger or something in a song or in a poem or in a short quote.

例如，当有人能够在一首歌、一首诗或一段简短的引言中捕捉到爱、悲伤、愤怒或某些东西的本质时，这是美丽的。

But perhaps, it's also possible to do it in aggregate, all the things, how you show up.

但或许，也可以将所有事情、你的表现等综合起来进行。

For instance, one of the things that initially drew me to want to get to know you as a human being and a scientist, and eventually we became friends, was the level of respect that you brought to your podcast listeners by wearing a suit.

例如，最初吸引我想了解你作为一个人和科学家的原因之一，最终我们成为朋友，就是你穿西装给播客听众带来的尊重程度。

I'm being serious here.

我在这里是认真的。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

Well, I think of it the same way.

嗯，我也是这么想的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I was raised thinking that if you overdress a little bit, overdressed by American, certainly by American standards, you're overdressed for a podcast, but it's genuine.

我从小就认为，如果你穿得有点过分，按照美国人的标准，当然按照美国的标准，你就穿得太过分了，但这是真实的。

You're not doing it for any reason except, I have to assume, and I assumed at the time, that it was because you have a respect for your audience.

你这样做不是出于任何原因，除了，我必须假设，而且我当时假设，这是因为你尊重你的观众。

You respect them enough to show up a certain way for them.

你足够尊重他们，以某种方式为他们服务。

It's for you also, but it's for them.

这也是为了你，但也是为了他们。

And I think between that and your commitment to your friendships, the way that you talk about friendships and love and the way you hold up these higher ideals, I think at least as a consumer of your content and as your friend, what I find is that in aggregate you're communicating who you are.

我认为，在这一点和你对友谊的承诺、你谈论友谊和爱情的方式以及你坚持这些更高理想的方式之间，我认为至少作为你的内容的消费者和你的朋友，我发现总的来说，你正在传达你是谁。

It doesn't have to be one quote or something.

它不一定是一句引言或其他东西。

And I think that we're sort of obsessed by the one Einstein quote or the one line of poetry or something.

我认为我们有点沉迷于爱因斯坦的一句名言或一首诗或其他什么东西。

But I think you so embody the way that, and Joe as well, it's about how you live your life and how you show up, as a collection of things, and said, and done.

但我认为你和乔都体现了这样的方式，那就是你如何过你的生活，以及你如何表现，作为事物、言行的集合。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

Yeah, that that's fascinating.

是的，这很有趣。

So the aggregate is the goal, the tricky thing.

所以总量就是目标，这是一件棘手的事情。

And Jordan Peterson talks about this because he's under attack way more than you and I will ever be.

乔丹·彼得森谈到这一点是因为他所受到的攻击比你我所受到的攻击还要多。

But ...

但是...

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

For now.

现在。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

For now, right?

现在，对吧？

This is very true, for now.

就目前而言，这是非常正确的。

That the people who attack on the Internet, this is one of the problems with Twitter, is they don't consider the aggregate.

在互联网上攻击的人，这是 Twitter 的问题之一，是他们不考虑总体。

They take single statements.

他们只接受单一陈述。

And so, one of the defense mechanisms ...

因此，防御机制之一......

Again, why Joe has been an inspiration, is that when you in aggregate are a good person, a lot of people will know that.

再说一次，为什么乔一直是一个鼓舞人心的人，是因为当你总体上是一个好人时，很多人都会知道这一点。

And so that makes you much more immune to the attacks of people that bring out an individual statement that might be a misstatement of some kind or doesn't express who you are.

因此，这会让你更容易受到那些提出个人陈述的人的攻击，这些个人陈述可能是某种错误陈述或没有表达你是谁。

I like that idea as the aggregate.

总的来说，我喜欢这个想法。

And the power of the podcast is you have hundreds of hours out there, and being yourself, and people get to know who you are.

播客的力量在于，你有数百个小时的时间，做你自己，人们就会知道你是谁。

And once they do, and you post pictures of screaming Roombas as you kick them, they'll understand that you don't mean ...

一旦他们这样做了，并且你发布了踢Roomba时尖叫的照片，他们就会明白你的意思不是......

By the way, as a side comment, I don't know if I want to release this because it's not just the Roombas ...

顺便说一句，我不知道我是否想发布这个，因为它不仅仅是 Roombas ...

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You have a whole dungeon of robots.

你有一整个地牢的机器人。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

So this is a problem.

所以这是一个问题。

Boston Dynamics came up against this problem, but, let me just workshop this out with you, and maybe, because we'll post this, people will let me know.

波士顿动力公司遇到了这个问题，但是，让我和你一起解决这个问题，也许，因为我们会发布这个问题，人们会让我知道。

So there's legged robots, they look like a dog.

所以有腿机器人，它们看起来像狗。

They have a very ...

他们有一个非常...

I'm trying to create a very real human-robot connection.

我正在尝试创建一种非常真实的人机连接。

But they're also incredible because you can throw them off of a building and it'll land fine.

但它们也令人难以置信，因为你可以将它们从建筑物上扔下来，并且它会很好地着陆。

And it's beautiful.

而且它很漂亮。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

That's amazing.

太棒了。

I've seen the Instagram videos of cats jumping off of fifth story buildings and then walking away.

我在 Instagram 上看过猫从五楼跳下然后走开的视频。

No one should throw their cat out of an open window.

任何人都不应该把猫从开着的窗户扔出去。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

This is the problem I'm experiencing, certainly kicking the robots, it's really fascinating how they recover from those kicks.

这就是我遇到的问题，当然是踢机器人，它们如何从这些踢中恢复真的很有趣。

But just seeing myself do it and also seeing others do it, it just does not look good.

但光是看到自己这样做，也看到别人这样做，就不好看了。

And I don't know what to do with that.

我不知道该怎么办。

It's such a ...

这是这样一个...

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I'll do it.

我会做的。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

But you don't ...

但你不...

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Robot?

机器人？

No, I'm kidding now.

不，我现在是在开玩笑。

You know what's interesting?

你知道什么是有趣的吗？

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Before today's conversation, I probably could do it.

在今天的谈话之前，我也许能做到。

And now, I think I'm thinking about robots' bills of rights and things.

现在，我想我正在考虑机器人的权利法案之类的事情。

And not to satisfy you or to satisfy anything, except that if they have some sentient aspect to their being, then I would loathe to kick a robot.

并不是为了满足你或满足任何事情，除非他们的存在有某种有知觉的方面，那么我讨厌踢机器人。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

I don't think you'd be able to kick it.

我不认为你能踢它。

You might be able to kick it the first time but not the second.

第一次你可能可以踢它，但第二次就不行了。

This is the problem I've experienced.

这是我遇到过的问题。

One of the cool things is one of the robots I'm working with, you can pick it up by one leg and it is dangling, and you can throw it in any kind of way, it'll land correctly.

其中一件很酷的事情是我正在使用的机器人之一，你可以用一条腿捡起它，它是悬空的，你可以以任何方式扔它，它会正确着陆。

So it's really ...

所以这真的是...

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I had a friend who had a cat like that.

我有一个朋友养了一只这样的猫。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

Oh man, we look forward to the letters from the cat ...

天哪，我们期待着猫的来信......

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Oh no, I'm not suggesting anyone did that.

哦，不，我并不是建议任何人这样做。

But he had this cat and he would just throw it onto the bed from across the room, and then it would run back for more.

但他养了一只猫，他会把它从房间对面扔到床上，然后它就会跑回来要更多的。

Somehow that was the nature of the relationship.

不知何故，这就是这种关系的本质。

I think — no one should do that to an animal.

我认为——没有人应该对动物这样做。

But this cat seemed to return for it, for whatever reason.

但不管出于什么原因，这只猫似乎又回来了。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

But a robot is a robot.

但机器人就是机器人。

It's fascinating to me how hard it is for me to do that.

让我着迷的是，做到这一点对我来说是多么困难。

So it's unfortunate but I don't think I can do that to a robot.

所以这很不幸，但我认为我不能对机器人做到这一点。

I struggle with that.

我对此很挣扎。

So for me to be able to do that with a robot, I have to almost, get into the state that I imagine doctors get into when they're doing surgery.

因此，为了能够用机器人做到这一点，我几乎必须进入我想象中的医生在进行手术时所处的状态。

I have to do what robotics colleagues of mine do, which is start seeing it as an object.

我必须像我的机器人同事所做的那样，开始将其视为一个物体。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Dissociate.

解散。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

Dissociate.

解散。

Which is fascinating, that I have to do that in order to do that with a robot.

令人着迷的是，我必须这样做才能用机器人做到这一点。

I just wanted to take that little bit of a tangent.

我只是想走一点切线。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

No, I think it's an important thing.

不，我认为这是一件重要的事情。

I mean I'm not shy about the fact that for many years I've worked on experimental animals.

我的意思是，我并不羞于承认多年来我一直致力于实验动物这一事实。

And that's been a very challenging aspect to being a biologist — mostly mice.

对于一名生物学家来说，这是一个非常具有挑战性的方面——主要是老鼠。

But in the past, no longer, thank goodness, because I just don't like doing it, larger animals as well.

但在过去，谢天谢地，现在不再这样了，因为我就是不喜欢这样做，大型动物也是如此。

And now I work on humans, which can give consent, verbal consent.

现在我的研究对象是人类，人类可以给予同意，口头同意。

So I think that it's extremely important to have an understanding of what the guidelines are and where one's own boundaries are around this.

因此，我认为了解指导方针是什么以及自己的界限在哪里是非常重要的。

It's not just an important question, it might be the most important question before any work can progress.

这不仅是一个重要的问题，而且可能是任何工作取得进展之前最重要的问题。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

So you asked me about friendship.

所以你问我关于友谊的事。

I know you have a lot of thoughts about friendship.

我知道你对友谊有很多想法。

What do you think is the value of friendship in life?

你认为友谊在人生中的价值是什么？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Well, for me personally, just because of my life trajectory and arc, friendship, and I should say, I do have some female friends that are just friends.

那么，对于我个人来说，就因为我的人生轨迹和弧度，友谊，而且我应该说，我确实有一些女性朋友只是朋友。

They're completely platonic relationships.

他们完全是柏拉图式的关系。

But it's been mostly male friendship, to me, has been ...

但对我来说，这主要是男性友谊……

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

It's been all male friendships for me actually.

实际上对我来说都是男性友谊。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Interesting.

有趣。

It's been an absolute lifeline.

这是绝对的生命线。

They are my family.

他们是我的家人。

I have a biological family and I have great respect and love for them and appreciation for them.

我有一个亲生家庭，我非常尊重和爱他们并欣赏他们。

But it's provided me, I wouldn't even say confidence, because there's always an anxiety in taking any good risk or any risk worth taking.

但它给了我，我什至不会说信心，因为在承担任何好的风险或任何值得承担的风险时总是会感到焦虑。

It's given me the sense that I should go for certain things and try certain things, to take risk, to weather that anxiety.

它给了我一种感觉，我应该追求某些事情，尝试某些事情，去冒险，去承受那种焦虑。

And I don't consider myself a particularly competitive person, but I would sooner die than disappoint or let down one of my friends.

我不认为自己是一个特别有竞争力的人，但我宁愿死也不愿让我的朋友失望或失望。

I can think of nothing worse, actually, than disappointing one of my friends.

事实上，我想不出比让我的一位朋友失望更糟糕的事情了。

Everything else is secondary to me.

其他一切对我来说都是次要的。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

What disappointment.?

什么失望。？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Disappointing meaning, not ...

令人失望的意思，不是...

I mean, certainly I strive always to show up as best I can for the friendship.

我的意思是，当然，我总是尽我所能地为友谊而努力。

And that can be in small ways.

这可以从一些小方面体现出来。

That can mean making sure the phone is away.

这可能意味着确保手机不在身边。

Sometimes it's about ...

有时它是关于...

I'm terrible with punctuality because I'm an academic, and so I just get lost in time.

我很不守时，因为我是一名学者，所以我总是迷失在时间中。

And I don't mean anything by it.

我这样说并没有什么意思。

But striving to listen, to enjoy good times and to make time.

但要努力倾听、享受美好时光并腾出时间。

It kind of goes back to this first variable we talked about, to make sure that I spend time.

这有点回到我们讨论的第一个变量，以确保我花时间。

And to get time in person and check in.

并争取时间亲自办理入住手续。

And I think there's so many ways in which friendship is vital to me.

我认为友谊在很多方面对我来说都是至关重要的。

It's actually, to me, what makes life worth living.

事实上，对我来说，这就是让生活变得有价值的原因。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

I am surprised with the high school friends, how we don't actually talk that often these days, in terms of time.

我对高中朋友们感到惊讶，这些天我们实际上在时间上说话并不那么频繁了。

But every time we see each other, it's immediately right back to where we started.

但每次我们见面，都会立即回到我们开始的地方。

So I struggle with that, how much time you really allocate for the friendship to be deeply meaningful because they're always there with me, even if we don't talk often.

所以我很纠结，你到底要花多少时间让友谊变得有意义，因为他们总是和我在一起，即使我们不经常说话。

So there's a kind of loyalty.

所以有一种忠诚。

I think maybe it's a different style, but I think I'm much more ...

我想也许这是一种不同的风格，但我想我更......

To me, friendship is being there in the hard times, I think.

对我来说，友谊就是在困难时期存在。

I'm much more reliable when you're going through shit than ...

当你遇到困难时我比......更可靠

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You're pretty reliable anyway.

反正你还是蛮靠谱的。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

No, but like a wedding or something like that, or I don't know.

不，但是像婚礼之类的，或者我不知道。

You won an award of some kind, yeah, I'll congratulate the shit out of you and I'll be there.

你赢得了某种奖项，是的，我会祝贺你，我也会在那里。

But that's not as important to me as being there when nobody else is.

但对我来说，这并不比在没有其他人的时候在场重要。

Just being there when shit hits the fan or something's tough or the world turns their back on you, all those kinds of things.

当遇到麻烦或遇到困难或世界背弃你，诸如此类的事情时，你就在那里。

To me, that's where friendship is meaningful.

对我来说，这就是友谊的意义所在。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Well, I know that to be true about you and that's a felt thing and a real thing with you.

嗯，我知道这对你来说是真实的，这是你感受到的，也是真实的。

Let me ask one more thing about that, actually, because I'm not a practitioner of jujitsu; I know you are, Joe is.

事实上，让我再问一件事，因为我不是柔术练习者；我知道你是，乔也是。

But years ago I read a book that I really enjoyed, which is Sam Sheridan's book "A Fighter's Heart." He talks about all these different forms of martial arts.

但几年前，我读了一本我非常喜欢的书，那就是萨姆·谢里登的书《斗士的心》。他谈论了所有这些不同形式的武术。

And maybe he was in the book, maybe he was in an interview, but he said that fighting or being in physical battle with somebody, jujitsu, boxing, or some other form of direct physical contact between two individuals, creates this bond unlike any other.

也许他在书中，也许他在接受采访，但他说，与某人打架或进行身体战斗、柔术、拳击或两个人之间其他形式的直接身体接触，创造了这种不同于其他任何形式的联系。

Because he said, "It's like a one-night stand.

因为他说：“这就像一夜情。

You're sharing bodily fluids with somebody that you barely know." And I chuckled about it because it's kind of funny and kind of tongue-in-cheek.

你正在与一个你几乎不认识的人分享体液。”我对此笑了，因为这有点有趣，也有点开玩笑。

But at the same time, I think this is a fundamental way in which members of a species bond, it's through physical contact.

但与此同时，我认为这是一个物种成员之间建立联系的基本方式，它是通过身体接触。

And certainly there are other forms, there's cuddling and there's handholding and there's sexual intercourse and there's all sorts of things.

当然还有其他形式，有拥抱、牵手、性交等等。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

What's cuddling?

什么叫抱抱？

I haven't heard of it.

我没听说过。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I heard this recently, I didn't know this term.

我最近听说这个，我不知道这个词。

But there's a term; they've turned the noun cupcake into a verb, "cupcaking," it turns out.

但有一个词；事实证明，他们把名词纸杯蛋糕变成了动词“纸杯蛋糕”。

I just learned about this.

我刚刚了解到这一点。

Cupcaking is when you spend time just cuddling.

纸杯蛋糕是指你们花时间拥抱。

I didn't know about this.

我不知道这件事。

You heard it here first, although I heard it first just the other day.

你先在这里听到的，虽然我前几天先听到的。

Cupcaking is actually ...

纸杯蛋糕其实是...

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

Cuddling is everything, it's not just like ...

拥抱就是一切，这不仅仅是......

Is it in bed or is it out on the couch?

是在床上还是在沙发上？

What's cuddling?

什么叫抱抱？

We need to look up what cuddling is.

我们需要查一下什么是拥抱。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

We need to look this up, and we need to define the variables.

我们需要查找这个，并且需要定义变量。

I think it definitely has to do with physical contact, I'm told.

有人告诉我，我认为这肯定与身体接触有关。

But in terms of battle, competition, and the Sheridan quote, I'm just curious, so do you get close or feel a bond with people that, for instance, you rolled jujitsu with, even though you don't know anything else about them?

但就战斗、竞争和谢里登的名言而言，我只是很好奇，那么你是否与那些（例如，与你一起玩柔术的人）亲近或感受到某种联系，即使你对他们一无所知？

Was he right about this?

他的说法正确吗？

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

Yeah, I mean, on many levels.

是的，我的意思是，在很多层面上。

He also has the book "A Fighter's Mind."

他还有《战士的思想》一书。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah, that was just the fighting one.

是的，那只是一场战斗。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

He's actually an excellent writer.

他实际上是一位出色的作家。

What's interesting about him, just briefly about Sheridan, I don't know him, but I did a little bit of research — he went to Harvard.

他的有趣之处在于，简单介绍一下谢里登，我不认识他，但我做了一些研究——他去了哈佛。

He was an art major at Harvard.

他是哈佛大学艺术专业的学生。

He claims all he did was smoke cigarettes and do art.

他声称他所做的只是抽烟和做艺术。

I don't know if his art was any good.

不知道他的手艺好不好？

And I think his father was in the SEAL Teams.

我认为他的父亲曾在海豹突击队服役。

And then when he got out of Harvard, graduated, he took off around the world, learning all the forms of martial arts and was early to the kind of ultimate fighting, kind of mixed martial arts and things.

然后，当他从哈佛毕业，毕业后，他开始环游世界，学习所有形式的武术，并且很早就接触了终极格斗、混合武术之类的东西。

Great book.

很棒的书。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

Yeah.

是的。

It's amazing.

太棒了。

I don't actually remember it but I read it.

我实际上不记得了，但我读过。

I remember thinking there was amazing encapsulation of what makes fighting, the art, what makes it compelling.

我记得我当时想，这本书对格斗、艺术以及格斗的吸引力进行了令人惊叹的概括。

I would say that there's so many ways that jujitsu, grappling, wrestling, combat sports in general, is one of the most intimate things you could do.

我想说，柔术、格斗、摔跤、格斗运动等多种方式都是你可以做的最亲密的事情之一。

I don't know if I would describe it in terms of bodily liquids and all those kinds of things.

我不知道是否可以用体液之类的东西来描述它。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I think he was more or less joking.

我认为他或多或少是在开玩笑。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

I think there's a few ways that it does that.

我认为有几种方法可以做到这一点。

So one, because you're so vulnerable.

第一，因为你太脆弱了。

So that the honesty of stepping on the mat ,and often all of us have ego, thinking we're better than we are at this particular art.

因此，踏上垫子的诚实感，通常我们所有人都有自我，认为我们在这门特殊的艺术方面比我们更好。

And then the honesty of being submitted, or being worse than you thought you are, and just sitting with that knowledge.

然后是诚实地屈服，或者比你想象的更糟糕，并且只是坐着接受这些知识。

That kind of honesty, we don't get to experience it in most of daily life.

这种诚实，是我们在日常生活中无法体验到的。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

We can continue living somewhat of an illusion of our conceptions of ourselves.

我们可以继续生活在我们对自己的看法的某种幻觉中。

Because people are not going to hit us with the reality.

因为人们不会用现实来打击我们。

The mat speaks only the truth.

垫子只说实话。

The reality just hits you.

现实只会打击你。

And that vulnerability is the same as the loss of a loved one.

这种脆弱与失去亲人是一样的。

It's the loss of a reality that you knew before.

这是你以前所知道的现实的丧失。

You now have to deal with this new reality.

你现在必须面对这个新的现实。

And when you're sitting there in that vulnerability, and there's these other people that are also sitting in that vulnerability, you get to really connect like, "Fuck, I'm not as special as I thought I was.

当你处于那个漏洞中，而其他人也处于这个漏洞中时，你就会真正产生联系，“操，我并不像我想象的那么特别。

And life is harsher than I thought it was." And we're just sitting there with that reality.

而生活比我想象的还要艰难。”我们只是坐在那里接受现实。

Some of us can put words to them, some we can't.

我们中的一些人可以对他们说话，有些人则不能。

So I think that, definitely, is a thing that leads to intimacy.

所以我认为这绝对是导致亲密感的事情。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

The other thing is the human contact.

另一件事是人际交往。

There is something about a big hug.

一个大大的拥抱是有道理的。

During COVID, very few people hugged me and I hugged them.

在新冠疫情期间，很少有人拥抱我，而我拥抱了他们。

And I always felt good when they did.

当他们这样做时我总是感觉很好。

We were all tested, and especially now, we're vaccinated.

我们都接受了测试，尤其是现在，我们接种了疫苗。

But there's still people ...

但还是有人...

This is true with San Francisco, this is true in Boston —they want to keep not only six feet away but stay at home and never touch you.

旧金山是这样，波士顿也是这样——他们不仅想保持六英尺的距离，而且想待在家里，永远不要碰你。

That loss of basic humanity is the opposite of what I feel in jujitsu, where it was that contact where you're like, I don't give a shit about whatever rules we're supposed to have in society, where you have to keep a distance and all that kind of stuff.

这种基本人性的丧失与我在柔术中感受到的相反，在柔术中，你会感觉到，我根本不在乎我们在社会上应该有的任何规则，你必须保持距离以及诸如此类的东西。

Just the hug, the intimacy of a hug, that's a good bear hug and you're just controlling another person.

只是一个拥抱，一个拥抱的亲密，这就是一个很好的熊抱，而你只是在控制另一个人。

And also there is some kind of love communicated through just trying to break each other's arms.

还有一种爱是通过试图打破彼此的手臂来传达的。

I don't exactly understand why violence is such a close neighbor to love, but it is.

我不太明白为什么暴力是爱的近邻，但事实确实如此。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Well, in the hypothalamus, the neurons that control sexual behavior, but also nonsexual contact, are not just nearby the neurons that control aggression and fighting, they are salt and pepper with those neurons.

好吧，在下丘脑中，控制性行为以及非性接触的神经元不仅位于控制攻击和战斗的神经元附近，而且它们与这些神经元是盐和胡椒。

It's a very interesting, and it almost sounds kind of risqué and controversial and stuff.

这非常有趣，而且听起来几乎有点伤风化、有争议之类的东西。

I'm not anthropomorphizing about what this means, but in the brain, those structures are interdigitated.

我并不是拟人化这意味着什么，但在大脑中，这些结构是相互交叉的。

You can't separate them except at a very fine level.

除非在非常精细的水平上，否则你无法将它们分开。

And here, the way you describe it is the same as a real thing.

而在这里，你描述的方式和真实的东西是一样的。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

I do want to make an interesting comment.

我确实想发表一个有趣的评论。

Again, these are the things that could be taken out of context, but one of the amazing things about jujitsu is both guys and girls train it, and I was surprised.

再说一次，这些都是可以断章取义的事情，但柔术的神奇之处之一是男孩和女孩都训练它，这让我感到惊讶。

So I'm a big fan of yoga pants, at the gym, kind of thing.

所以我是瑜伽裤的忠实粉丝，在健身房之类的。

It reveals the beauty of the female form.

充分展现了女性的体态之美。

But the thing is girls are dressed in skin-tight clothes in jujitsu often.

但问题是女孩们在柔术中经常穿着紧身衣服。

And I found myself not at all thinking that at all, when training with girls.

我发现自己在和女孩一起训练时根本不会这么想。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Well, the context is very nonsexual.

嗯，背景是非常非性的。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

But, I was surprised to learn that.

但是，我很惊讶地得知这一点。

When I first started jujitsu, I thought, wouldn't that be kind of weird to train with the opposite s ...

当我第一次开始柔术时，我想，和相反的人一起训练是不是有点奇怪......

in something so intimate.

在如此亲密的事情上。

Boys and girls, men and women, they roll jujitsu together, completely.

男孩和女孩，男人和女人，他们完全一起练习柔术。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Interesting.

有趣。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

The only times girls kind of try to stay away from guys, there's two contexts, of course there's always going to be creeps in this world.

唯一一次女孩试图远离男人的时候，有两种情况，当然，这个世界上总会有令人毛骨悚然的事情。

So everyone knows who kind of to stay away from.

所以每个人都知道要远离什么样的人。

And the other is there's a size disparity.

另一个是尺寸上的差异。

So girls will often try to roll with people a little bit closer, weightwise.

所以女孩们经常会尝试与人在重量上更接近一些。

But no, that's one of the things that are empowering to women.

但不，这是赋予女性权力的事情之一。

That's what they fall in love with when they start doing jujitsu.

当他们开始练习柔术时，他们就爱上了这一点。

First of all, they gain an awareness and a pride over their body, which is great.

首先，他们对自己的身体有了认识和自豪感，这很棒。

And then second, they get to, especially later on, start submitting big dudes.

其次，他们开始提交大人物，尤其是后来。

These bros that come in, who are all shredded and muscular, and they get, through technique, to exercise dominance over them.

这些进来的兄弟，都是肌肉发达、肌肉发达的人，通过技术，他们可以对他们施加统治力。

And that's a powerful feeling

那是一种强烈的感觉

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You've seen women force a larger guy to tap or even choke him out.

你见过女人强迫一个大块头的男人轻拍他，甚至掐死他。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

Well I was deadlifting four ...

好吧，我硬拉了四...

oh boy, I think it's 495.

天哪，我想是495。

So I was really into powerlifting when I started jujitsu.

所以当我开始柔术时，我真的很喜欢举重。

And I remember being submitted by ...

我记得是由...提交的

I walked in feeling like I'm going to be, if not the greatest fighter ever, at least top three.

我走进去的时候感觉自己即使不是有史以来最伟大的拳击手，至少也会成为前三名。

So as a white belt, you roll in all happy, and then you realize that as long as you're not applying too much force that you're having ...

因此，作为一条白带，你会很高兴地滚动，然后你意识到，只要你不施加太多的力，你就会......

I remember being submitted many times by 130, 120-pound girls at Balance Studios in Philadelphia.

我记得在费城的 Balance Studios 多次被 130 个体重 120 磅的女孩提交。

They had a lot of incredible female jujitsu players.

他们有很多令人难以置信的女性柔术运动员。

And that's really humbling too.

这也确实令人谦卑。

The technique can overpower, in combat, pure strength.

在战斗中，这种技术可以压倒纯粹的力量。

And that's the other thing — there is something about combat that's primal.

这是另一件事——战斗有一些原始的东西。

It feels like we were born to do this.

感觉就像我们生来就是为了这样做的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But we have circuits in our brain that are dedicated to this kind of interaction.

但我们的大脑中有专门负责这种相互作用的电路。

There's no question.

毫无疑问。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

And that's what it felt like.

这就是感觉。

It wasn't that I'm learning a new skill, it was like, somehow, I am remembering echoes of something I've learned in the past.

这并不是说我正在学习一项新技能，而是就像，不知何故，我正在记住我过去学到的东西的回声。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It's like hitting puberty.

就像进入青春期一样。

A child before puberty has no concept of boys and girls having this attraction, regardless of whether or not they're attracted to boys or girls, it doesn't matter.

青春期前的孩子没有男孩和女孩有这种吸引力的概念，无论他们是否被男孩或女孩吸引，都没有关系。

At some point, most people, not all, but certainly, but most people, when they hit puberty, suddenly people appear differently.

在某些时候，大多数人，不是全部，但肯定是，但是大多数人，当他们进入青春期时，人们突然出现不同的表现。

And certain people take on a romantic or sexual interest for the very first time.

有些人是第一次产生浪漫或性兴趣。

And so it's revealing a circuitry in the brain.

所以它揭示了大脑中的电路。

It's not like they learn that.

这不像他们学的那样。

It's innate.

这是与生俱来的。

And I think, when I hear the way you describe jujitsu, and rolling jujitsu, it reminds me a little bit Joe was telling me recently about the first time he went hunting.

我想，当我听到你描述柔术和滚动柔术的方式时，这让我想起了乔最近告诉我的关于他第一次去狩猎的事情。

And he felt like it revealed a circuit that was in him all along but he hadn't experienced before.

他觉得这揭示了他体内一直存在但他以前从未经历过的循环。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

Yeah, that's definitely there.

是的，那肯定是存在的。

And of course, there's the physical activity.

当然，还有身体活动。

One of the interesting things about jujitsu is it's one of the really strenuous exercises that you can do late into your adult life, into your fifties, sixties, seventies, eighties.

柔术的有趣之处之一是，它是一种非常艰苦的运动，你可以在成年后、五六十岁、七十岁、八十岁的时候进行。

When I came up, there's a few people in their eighties that were training.

我来的时候，有几个八十多岁的人正在训练。

And as long as you're smart, as long as you practice techniques and pick your partners correctly, you can do that kind of art late into life.

只要你聪明，只要你练习技巧并正确选择你的伴侣，你就可以在晚年从事这种艺术。

And so you're getting exercise.

所以你正在锻炼。

There's not many activities, I find, that are amenable to that.

我发现没有多少活动适合这样做。

So because it's such a thinking game — the jujitsu, in particular, is an art where technique pays off a lot.

因为它是一个需要思考的游戏——尤其是柔术，它是一门技术能带来很大回报的艺术。

So you can still maintain ...

所以你仍然可以维持...

First of all, remain injury-free if you use good technique.

首先，如果你使用良好的技术，就可以避免受伤。

And also through good technique, be active with people that are much, much younger.

并且通过良好的技巧，与年轻得多的人一起积极活动。

And so that was to me ...

这对我来说就是......

that and running are the two activities you can, kind of, do late in life, because to me, a healthy life has exercise as the piece of the puzzle.

跑步和跑步是你在晚年可以做的两项活动，因为对我来说，健康的生活离不开锻炼。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Absolutely.

绝对的。

And I'm glad that we're on the physical component because I know that there's ...

我很高兴我们在物理部分，因为我知道有......

For you, you've talked before about the crossover between the physical and the intellectual and the mental.

对于你来说，你之前已经谈到过身体、智力和精神之间的交叉。

Are you still running at ridiculous hours of the night for ridiculously long?

你还在深夜跑步很长时间吗？

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Definitely.

确实。

I've been running late at night here in Austin.

我在奥斯汀深夜跑步。

The area we're in now, people say is a dangerous area, which I find laughable, coming from the bigger cities.

人们说我们现在所在的地区是一个危险的地区，我觉得这很可笑，来自大城市。

No, I run late at night.

不，我深夜跑步。

If you see a guy running through Austin at 2:00 a.m.

如果您看到一个人在凌晨 2:00 穿过奥斯汀。

in a suit and tie, it's probably .

穿着西装打领带，可能是。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

Well yeah, I mean, I do think about that because I get recognized more and more in Austin.

是的，我的意思是，我确实考虑过这一点，因为我在奥斯汀得到了越来越多的认可。

I worry that, not really, that I get recognized late at night.

我担心自己在深夜被认出，但其实并非如此。

But there is something about the night that brings out those deep philosophical thoughts and self-reflection that I really enjoy.

但这个夜晚带来了我真正喜欢的深刻的哲学思考和自我反省。

But recently, I started getting back to the grind.

但最近，我开始回归苦差事。

So I'm going to be competing, or hoping to be competing, in September and October.

所以我将在九月和十月参加比赛，或者希望参加比赛。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

In jujitsu?

柔术？

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

In jujitsu, yeah, to get back to competition.

在柔术方面，是的，为了重返比赛。

And so that requires getting back into great cardio shape.

因此，这需要恢复良好的有氧运动状态。

I've been running as part of my daily routine.

我一直把跑步作为我日常生活的一部分。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Got it.

明白了。

I always know I can reach you, regardless of time zone, in the middle of the night, wherever that happens to be.

我始终知道，无论时区如何，无论在半夜，无论身在何处，我都可以联系到您。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

Well, part of that has to be just being single and being a programmer.

好吧，其中一部分必须是单身和成为一名程序员。

Those two things just don't work well in terms of a steady sleep schedule.

就稳定的睡眠时间表而言，这两件事并不能很好地发挥作用。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It's not banker's hours kind of work.

这不是银行家的工作时间。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

Nine to five.

朝九晚五。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You mentioned single.

你提到单身。

I want to ask you a little bit about the other form of relationship, which is romantic love.

我想问你一些关于另一种形式的关系的问题，那就是浪漫的爱情。

So your parents are still married?

所以你父母还结婚了？

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

Still married.

还是结婚了。

Still happily married.

婚姻依然幸福。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

That's impressive.

这令人印象深刻。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

A rare thing nowadays.

如今已属罕见。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So you grew up with that example?

那么你是伴随着这个例子长大的吗？

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

Yeah, I guess that's a powerful thing.

是的，我想这是一件很强大的事情。

If there's an example that I think can work, it ...

如果有一个我认为可行的例子，它......

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah, I didn't have that in my own family, but when I see it, it's inspiring and it's beautiful.

是的，我家里没有这样的东西，但当我看到它时，它很鼓舞人心，而且很美丽。

The fact that they have that, and that was the norm for you, I think is really wonderful.

事实上，他们拥有这样的能力，而且这对你来说是常态，我认为这真的很棒。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

In the case of my parents, it was interesting to watch because there's obviously tension.

就我父母而言，观看很有趣，因为显然很紧张。

There would be times where they fought and all those kinds of things.

他们有时会发生争吵之类的事情。

They obviously get frustrated with each other, but they find mechanisms how to communicate that to each other, to make fun of each other a little bit, to tease, to get some of that frustration out.

显然，他们对彼此感到沮丧，但他们找到了相互沟通的机制，互相取笑、戏弄，以消除一些沮丧。

And then ultimately to reunite and define their joyful moments and be that, the energy.

然后最终重聚并定义他们的快乐时刻，并成为能量。

I think it's clear, because they got together in their, I think, early twenties, very, very young.

我认为这很清楚，因为他们在我认为二十岁出头的时候就聚在一起了，非常非常年轻。

I think you grow together as people.

我认为你们作为人一起成长。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

You're still in the critical period of brain plasticity.

你仍处于大脑可塑性的关键时期。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

And also, I mean it is just like, divorce was so frowned upon that you stick it out.

而且，我的意思是，离婚是如此令人不悦，所以你坚持下去。

And I think a lot of couples, especially from that time in the Soviet Union ...

我认为很多夫妇，尤其是当时在苏联的夫妇......

This probably applies to a lot of cultures.

这可能适用于很多文化。

You stick it out and you put in the work.

你坚持下去，投入工作。

You learn how to put in the work.

您将学习如何投入工作。

And once you do, you start to get to some of those rewarding aspects of being, through time, sharing so many moments together.

一旦你这样做了，你就会开始体会到随着时间的推移，一起分享这么多时刻的一些有益的方面。

That's definitely something that ...

这绝对是……的事情。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

Yeah.

是的。

That's definitely something that was an inspiration to me.

这绝对是对我的启发。

But maybe that's where I have ...

但也许这就是我所...

So I have a similar kind of longing to have a lifelong partner that have that kind of view where, same with friendship, lifelong friendship is the most meaningful kind.

所以我也有类似的渴望，希望有一个终生的伴侣，他有这样的观点：和友谊一样，终生的友谊是最有意义的。

That there's something with that time, of sharing all that time together, like "till death do us part" is a powerful thing.

那段时光里有一些东西，一起分享所有的时光，比如“直到死亡将我们分开”，这是一件很强大的事情。

Not by force, not because the religion said it or the government said it, or your culture said it, but because you want to.

不是通过武力，不是因为宗教或政府或你的文化这么说，而是因为你想要这样做。

PART 5 OF 6 ENDS Andrew Huberman:

第 5 部分（共 6 部分）结束 Andrew Huberman：

Do want children?

想要孩子吗？

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

Definitely.

绝对是。

Yeah.

是的。

Definitely want children.

肯定想要孩子。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

How many Roombas do you have?

您有多少个 Roomba？

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

Oh.

哦。

I thought human children.

我以为是人类的孩子。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

No human children.

没有人类的孩子。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

Because I already have the children.

因为我已经有了孩子了。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Exactly.

正是如此。

Well, I was saying you probably need at least as many human children as you do Roombas.

好吧，我是说你可能至少需要和 Roombas 一样多的人类儿童。

Big family, small family?

大家庭、小家庭？

So in your mind's eye, is there ...

那么在你的脑海中，有没有...

are a bunch of little Fridmans running around?

一群小弗里德曼在跑来跑去吗？

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

So I'll tell you, realistically, I can explain exactly my thinking.

所以我会告诉你，实际上，我可以准确地解释我的想法。

And this is similar to the robotics work.

这与机器人的工作类似。

If I'm purely logical right now, my answer would be I don't want kids because I just don't have enough time.

如果我现在完全符合逻辑，我的答案是我不想要孩子，因为我没有足够的时间。

I have so much going on.

我有很多事情要做。

But when I'm using the same kind of vision I use for the robots, is I know my life will be transformed with the first.

但当我使用与机器人相同的视觉时，我知道我的生活将随着第一个机器人而改变。

I know I would love being a father.

我知道我很想当父亲。

And so, the question of how many, that's on the other side of that hill.

所以，问题是有多少人在山的另一边。

It could be some ridiculous number.

这可能是一些荒谬的数字。

So I just know that-

所以我只知道——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I have a feeling and I don't have a crystal ball, but I don't know, I see you in upwards of, certainly three or more comes to mind.

我有一种感觉，我没有水晶球，但我不知道，我看到你在上面，肯定会想到三个或更多。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

So much of that has to do with the partner you're with too.

这在很大程度上也与你的伴侣有关。

So that's such an open question, especially in this society of what the right partnership is.

所以这是一个悬而未决的问题，尤其是在这个什么是正确的伙伴关系的社会。

Because I'm deeply empathetic, I want to see ...

因为我有很深的同理心，所以我想看到......

To me, what I look for in a relationship is for me to be really excited about the passions of another person, whatever they're into.

对我来说，我在一段关系中寻找的是让我对另一个人的热情感到真正兴奋，无论他们喜欢什么。

It doesn't have to be career success, any kind of success.

它不一定是事业上的成功，任何形式的成功。

Just to be excited for them and for them to be excited for me.

只是为他们感到兴奋，让他们为我感到兴奋。

And sharing that excitement and build and build and build.

并分享那种兴奋，建造、建造、建造。

But there's also practical aspects of what kind of shit do you enjoy doing together?

但还有一些实际的方面，比如你们喜欢一起做什么样的事情？

And I think family is a real serious undertaking.

我认为家庭是一项真正严肃的事业。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Oh it certainly is.

哦，确实如此。

I have a friend who said it, I think best, which is that you first have, he's in a very successful relationship and has a family, and he said, "You first have to define the role, and then you have to cast the right person for the role."

我有一个朋友说过，我认为最好的是，你首先拥有，他有一个非常成功的关系并且有一个家庭，他说，“你首先必须定义这个角色，然后你必须为这个角色选择合适的人选。”

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

Well, yeah.

嗯，是的。

There's some deep aspect to that, but there's also an aspect to which you're not smart enough from this side of it to define the right, to define the role.

这有一些深刻的方面，但也有一个方面，从这方面来说，你不够聪明，无法定义权利、定义角色。

I think there's part of it that has to be a leap that you have to take.

我认为其中有一部分是你必须迈出的一步。

And I see having kids that way; you just have to go with it and figure it out.

我认为生孩子就是这样；你只需要接受它并弄清楚它。

Also, as long as there's love there, what the hell is life for even?

而且，只要还有爱，那活着到底是为了什么？

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

There's so many incredibly successful people that I know — that I've gotten to know — that all have kids, and the presence of kids, for the most part, has only been something that energized them.

我认识的很多非常成功的人——我已经认识了——他们都有孩子，而孩子的存在，在很大程度上，只会让他们充满活力。

Something that gave them meaning, something that made them the best versions of themselves, made them more productive, not less, which is fascinating to me.

那些赋予他们意义的东西，那些让他们成为最好的自己的东西，让他们变得更有生产力，而不是更少，这对我来说很着迷。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It is fascinating.

这是令人着迷的。

I mean you can imagine if the way that you felt about Homer, the way that I feel and felt about Costello, is at all a glimpse of what that must be like then?

我的意思是，你可以想象，如果你对荷马的感觉，我对科斯特洛的感觉和感觉，是否能一睹当时的情景？

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

Exactly.

正是如此。

The downside, the thing I worry more about is the partner side of that.

不利的一面是，我更担心的是合作伙伴方面。

I've seen the kids are almost universally a source of increased productivity and joy and happiness.

我发现孩子们几乎普遍成为提高生产力、快乐和幸福的源泉。

Yeah.

是的。

They're pain in the ass, yes, complicated — so on and so forth.

是的，它们很麻烦，很复杂——诸如此类。

People like to complain about kids, but when you actually look past that little shallow layer of complaint, kids are great.

人们喜欢抱怨孩子，但当你真正超越那些浅薄的抱怨时，孩子们是伟大的。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

The source of pain for a lot of people is if when the relationship doesn't work.

对于很多人来说，痛苦的根源是当关系不起作用时。

And so I'm very kind of concerned about ...

所以我非常担心......

Dating is very difficult and I'm a complicated person.

约会非常困难，我是一个复杂的人。

And so it's been very difficult to find the right kind of person.

因此，找到合适的人非常困难。

But that statement doesn't even make sense because I'm not on dating apps.

但这种说法甚至没有意义，因为我不使用约会应用程序。

I don't see people.

我看不见人。

You're the first person I saw in a while.

你是我一段时间以来见到的第一个人。

It's like you and Michael Malice and Joe.

就像你和迈克尔·马里斯和乔一样。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

So I don't think I've seen a female ...

所以我觉得我没见过女的...

What is it?

它是什么？

An element of the female species in quite a while.

很长一段时间以来，它一直是雌性物种的一个组成部分。

So I think you have to put yourself out there.

所以我认为你必须把自己放在那里。

What is it?

它是什么？

Daniel Johnston says, "True level will find you, but only if you're looking." So there's some element of really taking the leap and putting yourself out there in different situations.

丹尼尔约翰斯顿说：“真正的水平会找到你，但前提是你在寻找。”因此，需要真正迈出一步，将自己置于不同的情况下。

And I don't know how to do that when you're behind a computer all the time.

当你一直坐在电脑后面时，我不知道该怎么做。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Well, you're a builder, and you're a problem solver, and you find solutions, and I'm confident this solution, the solution is out there and-

好吧，你是一个建设者，你是一个问题解决者，你找到解决方案，我相信这个解决方案，解决方案就在那里，而且-

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

I think you're implying that I'm going to build the girlfriend, which I think-

我想你是在暗示我要培养女朋友，我想-

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Well, and maybe we shouldn't separate this friendship, the notion of friendship and community.

好吧，也许我们不应该将这种友谊、友谊和社区的概念分开。

And if we go back to this concept of the aggregate, maybe you'll meet this woman through a friend or something of that sort.

如果我们回到这个聚合的概念，也许你会通过朋友或类似的东西认识这个女人。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

So one of the things, I don't know if you feel the same way.

其中一件事，我不知道你是否也有同样的感觉。

I definitely am one of those people that just falls in love and that's it.

我绝对是那些刚刚坠入爱河的人之一，仅此而已。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

I can't say I'm like that.

我不能说我就是这样的人。

With Costello it was instantaneous.

对于科斯特洛来说，这一切都是瞬间发生的。

It really was.

确实如此。

I mean I know it's not romantic love, but it was instantaneous.

我的意思是我知道这不是浪漫的爱情，但它是瞬间的。

No. But that's me.

不，但这就是我。

And I think that if you know, you know, because that's a good thing that you have that.

我认为如果你知道，你就知道，因为你拥有它是一件好事。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

Well, I'm very careful with that because you don't want to fall in love with the wrong person.

嗯，我对此非常小心，因为你不想爱上错误的人。

So I try to be very kind of careful with ...

所以我试着非常小心......

I've noticed this, because I fall in love with everything, with this mug, everything.

我注意到了这一点，因为我爱上了一切，爱上了这个杯子，一切。

I fall in love with things in this world.

我爱上了这个世界上的事物。

So you have to be really careful because a girl comes up to you and says she loves Dostoevsky.

所以你必须非常小心，因为一个女孩走到你面前说她喜欢陀思妥耶夫斯基。

That doesn't necessarily mean you have to marry her tonight.

这并不一定意味着你今晚必须娶她。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Exactly.

正是如此。

Yes.

是的。

And I like the way you said that out loud so that you heard it.

我喜欢你大声说出来以便你听到的方式。

It doesn't mean you need to marry her tonight.

这并不意味着你今晚需要娶她。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

Exactly.

正是如此。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right.

对。

Exactly.

确切地。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

But people are amazing and people are beautiful.

但人们是惊人的，人们是美丽的。

And so, I'm fully embraced that.

所以，我完全接受这一点。

But I also have to be careful with relationships.

但我也必须小心处理人际关系。

And at the same time, like I mentioned to you offline, I don't ...

与此同时，就像我在线下向你提到的那样，我不......

There's something about me that appreciates swinging for the fences and not dating, like doing serial dating or dating around.

我身上有些东西喜欢摇摆不定，而不是约会，比如连续约会或四处约会。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

You're a one-guy-one-girl kind of guy.

你是一个一男一女的人。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You've said that.

你已经说过了。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

And it's tricky, because you want to be careful with that kind of stuff, especially now there's a growing platform that I have a ridiculous amount of female interest of a certain kind.

这很棘手，因为你要小心对待这类事情，尤其是现在有一个不断增长的平台，我对某种类型的女性兴趣高得离谱。

But I'm looking for deep connection, and I'm looking by sitting home alone and every once in a while talking to Stanford professors-

但我正在寻找深层的联系，我会独自坐在家里，偶尔与斯坦福大学的教授交谈——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Perfect solution.

完美的解决方案。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

...

...

on a podcast.

在播客上。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Perfect solution.

完美的解决方案。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

It's going to work out great.

效果会很好。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It's well incorporated.

它融合得很好。

It's part of ...

这是...的一部分

That constitutes machine learning, of sorts.

这在某种程度上构成了机器学习。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

Yeah, of sorts.

是的，某种程度上。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You mentioned what has now become a quite extensive and expansive public platform, which is incredible.

你提到现在已经成为一个相当广泛和广泛的公共平台，这是令人难以置信的。

I mean the number of people out ...

我是说出去的人数...

First time I saw your podcast, I noticed the suit.

我第一次看到你的播客时，就注意到了这套衣服。

I was like, "He respects his audience," which was great.

我当时想，“他尊重他的观众”，这太棒了。

But I also thought, "This is amazing.

但我也想：“这太棒了。

People are showing up for science and engineering and technology information and those discussions and other sorts of discussions."

人们出现在科学、工程和技术信息以及这些讨论和其他类型的讨论中。”

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Now I do want to talk for a moment about the podcast.

现在我确实想谈谈播客。

So my two questions about the podcast are, When you started it, did you have a plan?

所以我关于播客的两个问题是，当你开始播客时，你有计划吗？

And regardless of what that answer is, do you know where you're taking it, or would you like to leave us ...

不管答案是什么，你知道你要把它带到哪里，还是你想离开我们......

I do believe in an element of surprise, is always fun.

我确实相信惊喜总是很有趣的。

But what about the podcast?

但播客呢？

Do you enjoy the podcast?

你喜欢播客吗？

I mean your audience, certainly includes me, really enjoys the podcast.

我的意思是，你的观众，当然也包括我，非常喜欢这个播客。

It's incredible.

太不可思议了。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

So I love talking to people, and there's something about microphones that really brings out the best in people.

所以我喜欢与人交谈，而麦克风确实能激发人们最好的一面。

You don't get a chance to talk like this.

你没有机会这样说话。

If you and I were just hanging out, we would have a very different conversation in the amount of focus we allocate to each other.

如果你和我只是出去玩，我们在彼此分配的焦点上会有非常不同的谈话。

We would be having fun talking about other stuff and doing other things.

我们会很开心地谈论其他事情并做其他事情。

There would be a lot of distraction.

会有很多干扰。

There would be some phone use and all that kind of stuff.

会有一些电话使用和诸如此类的事情。

But here we're a one hundred percent focus on each other and focus on the idea.

但在这里我们百分百专注于彼此并专注于这个想法。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

And sometimes playing with ideas that we both don't know the answer to, like a question we don't know the answer to, we're both fumbling with it, trying to figure out, trying to get some insights at something we haven't really figured out before and together arriving at that.

有时我们会玩弄一些我们都不知道答案的想法，比如一个我们不知道答案的问题，我们都在摸索，试图弄清楚，试图对我们之前没有真正弄清楚的事情获得一些见解，然后共同达成这一目标。

I think that's magical.

我认为这很神奇。

I don't know why we need microphones for that, but we somehow do.

我不知道为什么我们需要麦克风，但我们确实需要。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It feels like doing science.

感觉就像做科学一样。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

It feels like doing science.

感觉就像做科学一样。

For me, definitely.

对我来说，绝对是。

That's exactly it.

就是这样。

And I'm really glad you said that, because I don't actually often say this, but that's exactly what I've felt like.

我真的很高兴你这么说，因为我实际上并不经常这么说，但这正是我的感受。

I wanted to talk to friends and colleagues at MIT, to do real science together.

我想与麻省理工学院的朋友和同事交谈，一起做真正的科学。

That's how I felt about it.

我就是这么想的。

To really talk through problems that are actually interesting, as opposed to incremental work that we're currently working for a particular conference.

真正讨论真正有趣的问题，而不是我们目前为特定会议所做的增量工作。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

So really asking questions like, "What are we doing?

所以真正要问这样的问题：“我们在做什么？

Where's this headed to?

这是要去哪里？

What are the big ...

有哪些大...

is this really going to help us solve, in the case of AI, solve intelligence?

就人工智能而言，这真的能帮助我们解决智能问题吗？

Is this even working on intelligence?" There's a certain sense, which is why I initially called it artificial intelligence, is like most of us are not working on artificial intelligence.

这还对情报有作用吗？”有一定的意义，这就是为什么我最初将其称为人工智能，就像我们大多数人都没有致力于人工智能一样。

You're working on some very specific problem and a set of techniques — at the time, it's machine learning to solve this particular problem.

你正在研究一些非常具体的问题和一组技术——当时，是机器学习来解决这个特定的问题。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

This is not going to take us to a system that is anywhere close to the generalizability of the human mind.

这不会把我们带到一个接近人类思维普遍性的系统。

The kind of stuff the human mind can do, in terms of memory, in terms of cognition, in terms of reasoning — common-sense reasoning.

人类思维可以做的事情，就记忆而言，就认知而言，就推理而言——常识推理。

It doesn't seem to take us there.

它似乎并没有带我们去那里。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

The initial impulse was, "Can I talk to these folks, do science together through conversation?" And I also thought that there was not enough ...

最初的冲动是，“我可以和这些人交谈，通过对话一起做科学吗？”而且我还以为还不够...

I didn't think there was enough good conversations with world-class minds that I got to meet, and not the ones with the book or this was the thing — oftentimes, you go on this tour when you have a book, but there's a lot of minds that don't write books.

我不认为我能与世界级的思想家进行足够多的良好对话，而不是那些有书的人，或者事情就是这样——通常，当你有一本书的时候，你会去参加这次旅行，但有很多人不写书。

They don't.

他们不这样做。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And the books constrain the conversation too, because then you're talking about this thing, this book.

书籍也限制了谈话，因为那时你正在谈论这个东西，这本书。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

But I've noticed that with people who haven't written a book who are brilliant, we get to talk about ideas in a new way.

但我注意到，对于那些没有写过书但才华横溢的人来说，我们可以用一种新的方式谈论想法。

We both haven't, actually ...

事实上我们俩都没有...

when we raise a question, we don't know the answer to it when the question is raised and we try to arrive there.

当我们提出问题时，当我们试图找到答案时，我们并不知道答案。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

I don't know.

我不知道。

I remember asking questions of world-class researchers in deep learning of why do neural networks work as well as they do?

我记得我曾向深度学习领域的世界级研究人员提出过这样的问题：为什么神经网络能够如此有效地工作？

That question is often loosely asked.

这个问题经常被宽松地提出。

But when you have microphones, and you have to think through it, and you have 30 minutes to an hour to think through it together, I think that's science.

但是当你有麦克风时，你必须仔细思考，并且你有 30 分钟到一个小时的时间一起思考，我认为这就是科学。

I think that's really powerful.

我认为这真的很强大。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

So that was the one goal.

这就是唯一的目标。

The other one is ...

另一位是...

I, again, don't usually talk about this, but there's some sense in which I wanted to have dangerous conversations.

再说一次，我通常不谈论这个，但从某种意义上说，我想进行危险的对话。

Part of the reasons I wanted to wear a suit is like I want to be fearless.

我想穿西装的部分原因是我想无所畏惧。

That the reason I don't usually talk about it is because I feel like I'm not good at conversations.

我之所以不经常谈论它，是因为我觉得自己不擅长交谈。

So it looks like it doesn't match the current skill level, but I wanted to have really dangerous conversations that I uniquely would be able to do.

所以看起来它与当前的技能水平不符，但我想要进行真正危险的对话，而我独特地能够做到这一点。

Not completely uniquely, but like ...

不完全独特，但就像......

I'm a huge fan of Joe Rogan, and I had to ask myself, "What conversations can I do that Joe Rogan can't?"

我是乔·罗根的超级粉丝，我不得不问自己，“哪些对话是我能做而乔·罗根不能做的？”

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

For me, I know I bring this up, but for me, that person I thought about at the time was Putin.

对我来说，我知道我提出了这个问题，但对我来说，我当时想到的那个人是普京。

That's why I bring him up.

这就是我提起他的原因。

He's just like with Costello, he's not just a person.

他就像科斯特洛一样，他不仅仅是一个人。

He's also an idea to me for what I strive for.

他也是我努力奋斗的一个想法。

Just to have those dangerous conversations.

只是为了进行那些危险的谈话。

And the reason I'm uniquely qualified is both the Russian, but also there's the judo and the martial arts.

我拥有独特资格的原因不仅在于俄罗斯，还在于柔道和武术。

There's a lot of elements that make me have a conversation he hasn't had before.

有很多因素让我能够进行一次他以前从未有过的对话。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

And there's a few other people that I kept in mind.

我还记得其他一些人。

Like Don Knuth is a computer scientist from Stanford that I thought is one of the most beautiful minds ever.

就像唐·克努斯 (Don Knuth) 一样，他是斯坦福大学的一位计算机科学家，我认为他是有史以来最美丽的头脑之一。

And nobody really talked to him, really talked to him.

没有人真正和他说话，真正和他说话。

He did a few lectures, which people love, but really just have a conversation with him.

他做了一些人们喜欢的讲座，但实际上只是与他交谈。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

There's a few people like that.

这样的人有几个。

One of them passed away, John Conway, that I had never got ...

其中一位去世了，约翰·康威，我从未得到过......

We agreed to talk, but he died before we did.

我们同意谈谈，但他在我们之前就去世了。

There's a few people like that, that I thought it's such a crime to not hear those folks.

有一些这样的人，我认为不听他们的声音就是一种犯罪。

And I have the unique ability to know how to purchase a microphone on Amazon and plug it into a device that records audio, and then publish it, which seems relatively unique.

而且我有独特的能力，知道如何在亚马逊上购买麦克风并将其插入到录制音频的设备中，然后发布它，这看起来相对独特。

That's not easy in the scientific community, people knowing how to plug in a microphone.

这在科学界并不容易，因为人们知道如何插入麦克风。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

No. They can build Faraday cages and two-photon microscopes and bioengineer all sorts of things.

不。他们可以建造法拉第笼和双光子显微镜，还可以进行各种生物工程。

But the idea that you could take ideas and export them into a structure or a pseudostructure that people would benefit from seems like a cosmic achievement to them.

但是，你可以将想法导出到人们可以从中受益的结构或伪结构中，这一想法对他们来说似乎是一项巨大的成就。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

I don't know if it's a fear or just basically they haven't tried it, or they haven't learned the skill level.

我不知道这是一种恐惧，还是基本上他们没有尝试过，或者他们还没有学到技能水平。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I think they're not trained.

我认为他们没有受过训练。

I mean we could riff on this for a while, but I think that ...

我的意思是我们可以反复讨论这个问题一段时间，但我认为......

but it's important, and maybe we should, which is that, it's they're not trained to do it.

但这很重要，也许我们应该这样做，也就是说，他们没有接受过这样做的培训。

They're trained to think in specific aims and specific hypotheses.

他们接受过以特定目标和特定假设进行思考的训练。

And many of them don't care to.

他们中的许多人并不关心。

They became scientists because that's where they felt safe.

他们成为科学家是因为那是他们感到安全的地方。

And so, why would they leave that haven of safety?

那么，他们为什么要离开那个安全的避风港呢？

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

Well, they also don't necessarily always see the value in it.

嗯，他们也不一定总能看到其中的价值。

We're all together learning.

我们大家一起学习。

You and I are learning the value of this.

你和我正在了解它的价值。

I think you're probably ...

我想你可能是...

you have an exceptionally successful and amazing podcast that you started just recently-

你最近刚刚开始制作一个非常成功且令人惊叹的播客-

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Thanks to your encouragement.

谢谢你的鼓励。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

Well, but there's a raw skill there, that you're definitely an inspiration to me in how you do the podcast, in the level of excellence you reach.

嗯，但那里有一项原始技能，你绝对是我的灵感来源，无论是你如何做播客，还是你达到的卓越水平。

But I think you've discovered that that's also an impactful way to do science, that podcast.

但我想你已经发现，播客也是一种有影响力的科学研究方式。

And I think a lot of scientists have not yet discovered that this is, if they apply the same kind of rigor as they do to academic publication or to even conference presentations, and they do that rigor and effort to podcast, whatever that is, that could be a five-minute podcast, a two-hour podcast.

我认为很多科学家还没有发现这一点，如果他们对学术出版物甚至会议演讲采取同样的严格性，并且他们对播客采取同样的严格性和努力，无论是什么，那可能是一个五分钟的播客，一个两小时的播客。

It could be conversational or it could be more lecturelike.

它可以是对话式的，也可以是更像讲座的。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

If they apply that effort, you have the potential to reach, over time, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, millions of people.

如果他们付出这样的努力，随着时间的推移，你就有可能接触到数万、数十万、数百万人。

And that's really, really powerful.

这真的非常非常强大。

But for me, giving a platform to a few of those folks, especially for me personally, so maybe you can speak to what fields you're drawn to.

但对我来说，为其中一些人提供一个平台，特别是对我个人来说，这样也许你可以谈谈你感兴趣的领域。

But I thought computer scientists were especially bad at this.

但我认为计算机科学家在这方面尤其糟糕。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

So there's brilliant computer scientists that I thought it would be amazing to explore their mind, explore their thinking.

因此，有一些杰出的计算机科学家，我认为探索他们的思想、探索他们的思维将会是令人惊奇的。

And so I took that almost as an effort.

所以我几乎把这当作一种努力。

And at the same time, I had other guests in mind, or people, that connect to my own interests.

与此同时，我心里还有其他与我自己的兴趣相关的客人或人。

So the wrestling, music, football, both American football and soccer.

所以摔跤、音乐、橄榄球、美式橄榄球和足球。

I have a few particular people that I'm really interested in.

我有一些我真正感兴趣的人。

Buvaisar Saitiev, the Saitiev Brothers, even Khabib for wrestling, just to talk to them, because-

Buvaisar Saitiev、Saitiev 兄弟，甚至还有摔跤的 Khabib，只是为了和他们交谈，因为——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Oh, because you guys can communicate?

哦，因为你们可以交流？

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

In Russian and in wrestling, as wrestlers and as Russians.

在俄语和摔跤中，作为摔跤手和俄罗斯人。

And so, that little ...

那么，那个小...

It's an opportunity to explore a mind that I'm able to bring to the world.

这是一个探索我能够带给世界的思想的机会。

And also, I feel like it makes me a better person.

而且，我觉得这让我成为一个更好的人。

Just that being that vulnerable and exploring ideas together.

只是因为脆弱并一起探索想法。

I don't know.

我不知道。

Good conversation.

很好的谈话。

I don't know how often you have really good conversation with friends, but podcasts are like that.

我不知道你多久能与朋友进行一次真正愉快的交谈，但播客就是这样。

And it's deeply moving.

这令人深深感动。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It's the best.

这是最好的。

And what you've brought through, I mean when I saw you sit down with Penrose, Nobel Prize-winning physicists, and these other folks.

我的意思是，当我看到你与彭罗斯、诺贝尔奖获得者物理学家以及其他人坐在一起时，你所带来的一切。

It's not just because he has a Nobel, it's what comes out of his mouth is incredible.

这不仅仅是因为他获得了诺贝尔奖，还因为他嘴里说出的话令人难以置信。

And what you were able to hold in that conversation was so much better.

在那次谈话中你能掌握的东西要好得多。

Light years beyond what he had ...

超出他所拥有的光年......

any other interviewer.

任何其他面试官。

I don't want to even call you an interviewer because it's really about conversation.

我什至不想称你为面试官，因为这实际上是关于对话的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Light years beyond what anyone else had been able to engage with him ...

超出其他任何人能够与他接触的光年......

was such a beacon of what's possible.

是一个指明一切可能性的灯塔。

And I know that, I think that's what people are drawn to.

我知道，我认为这就是人们所吸引的地方。

And there's a certain intimacy that certainly if two people are friends, as we are, and they know each other, that there's more of that, but there's an intimacy in those kinds of private conversations that are made public.

当然，如果两个人是朋友，就像我们一样，而且他们彼此认识，那么肯定会有一定的亲密感，而且还有更多这样的亲密感，但是在公开的私人谈话中也有一种亲密感。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

Well, with you, you're probably starting to realize, and Costello is like part of it, because you're authentic, and you're putting yourself out there completely; people are almost not just consuming the words you're saying.

好吧，和你在一起，你可能开始意识到，科斯特洛就像其中的一部分，因为你是真实的，你把自己完全展现出来；人们几乎不只是消费你所说的话。

They also enjoy watching you, Andrew, struggle with these ideas or try to communicate these ideas.

安德鲁，他们也喜欢看着你与这些想法作斗争或尝试传达这些想法。

They like the flaws.

他们喜欢缺陷。

They like a human being Andrew Huberman:

他们喜欢一个人安德鲁·休伯曼：

Oh good, because I have flaws.

哦，很好，因为我有缺点。

Well, that's good because I got plenty of those.

嗯，这很好，因为我有很多这样的东西。

Lex Fridman:

莱克斯·弗里德曼：

Well, they like the self-critical aspects, where you're very careful, where you're very self-critical about your flaws.

嗯，他们喜欢自我批评的方面，你非常小心，你对自己的缺点非常自我批评。

I mean in that same way, it's interesting I think for people to watch me talk to Penrose, not just because Penrose is communicating ideas, but here is this silly kid trying to explore ideas.

我的意思是，以同样的方式，我认为人们观看我与彭罗斯交谈很有趣，不仅仅是因为彭罗斯在交流想法，而且这是这个愚蠢的孩子试图探索想法。