Dr. Layne Norton: Tools for Nutrition & Fitness

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.

欢迎来到休伯曼实验室播客，我们在这里讨论科学和基于科学的日常生活工具。

I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.

我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。

My guest today is Dr. Layne Norton.

今天我的客人是莱恩·诺顿博士。

Dr. Layne Norton did his training in biochemistry and nutritional sciences and is one of the world's foremost experts in exercise and nutrition.

莱恩·诺顿博士接受过生物化学和营养科学方面的培训，是世界上最重要的运动和营养专家之一。

He is also an expert in the topic of supplementation and other tools to augment health.

他也是补充剂和其他增强健康工具领域的专家。

Today, we discuss a large number of very important topics in these categories, and we start the conversation by establishing what Dr. Norton's thresholds are for what he accepts as evidence.

今天，我们讨论这些类别中的大量非常重要的主题，我们通过确定诺顿博士接受作为证据的阈值来开始对话。

In particular, actionable evidence.

特别是可采取行动的证据。

So what follows is a description of what Dr. Norton really believes is worth paying attention to versus what he believes is worth ignoring in the realms of nutrition, training, and supplementation.

以下是诺顿博士认为在营养、训练和补充领域中真正值得关注的内容和他认为值得忽视的内容的描述。

So you can be certain that as we start to go through the topics of sugar, GLP-1 agonists, things like Ozempic, artificial sweeteners, whether you should train to failure or not during your resistance training sessions, how much volume of training you need to do, cardiovascular training and its different forms in terms of how they benefit health span and lifespan and body composition, protein and its different sources, and on and on.

因此，当我们开始讨论糖、GLP-1 激动剂、臭氧、人工甜味剂等话题时，您可以确定，在阻力训练期间您是否应该训练到力竭，您需要进行多少训练量，心血管训练及其不同形式对健康寿命、寿命和身体成分的益处，蛋白质及其不同来源，等等。

Indeed, we cover many topics in this episode.

事实上，我们在这一集中讨论了很多主题。

You can be sure that all of the information you hear from Dr. Norton is being filtered through that extremely stringent filter that Dr. Norton is so well known for.

您可以确信，您从诺顿博士那里听到的所有信息都经过诺顿博士众所周知的极其严格的过滤器过滤。

And thus, by the end of today's episode, you'll be armed not only with the latest information on nutrition, training, and supplementation, but you'll also be armed with your own filter to determine what sorts of health protocols are actionable for you.

因此，在今天的节目结束时，您不仅将掌握有关营养、训练和补充剂的最新信息，而且还将拥有自己的过滤器，以确定哪些类型的健康方案对您来说是可行的。

Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.

在开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。

It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public.

然而，我的愿望和努力的一部分是向公众提供有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本消费者信息。

In keeping with that theme, I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast.

为了与这个主题保持一致，我要感谢今天播客的赞助商。

Our first sponsor is Matina.

我们的第一个赞助商是马蒂娜。

Matina makes loose leaf and ready-to-drink yerba mate.

Matina 生产活叶和即饮马黛茶。

Yerba mate has long been my preferred source of caffeine, not just because it tastes great and provides that stimulant effect that caffeine provides for focus and alertness, but its other many benefits that are unique to yerba mate, such as regulating blood sugar, high antioxidant content, and it can improve digestion.

长期以来，马黛茶一直是我首选的咖啡因来源，不仅因为它味道好，能提供咖啡因带来的集中注意力和警觉性的刺激作用，而且马黛茶还具有马黛茶独有的其他许多好处，例如调节血糖、高抗氧化剂含量，并且可以改善消化。

And of course, I drink yerba mate because I simply love the taste.

当然，我喝马黛茶是因为我喜欢它的味道。

While there are a lot of different choices out there in terms of yerba mate drinks, my personal favorite is Matina yerba mate because it's made with the highest quality organic ingredients, and it has a very rich but clean taste.

虽然马黛茶饮料有很多不同的选择，但我个人最喜欢的是 Matina 马黛茶，因为它是用最优质的有机原料制成的，而且味道非常丰富但干净。

And given Matina's great taste and commitment to quality, I recently became a part owner in the company, and I've helped design some of their drink products.

鉴于 Matina 的出色品味和对质量的承诺，我最近成为了该公司的股东，并帮助设计了他们的一些饮料产品。

In particular, I love the taste of Matina's canned zero sugar cold brew yerba mate, which has a slight taste of lemon, and I personally helped develop that drink.

我特别喜欢Matina的罐装零糖冷萃马黛茶的味道，有淡淡的柠檬味，我亲自帮助开发了这种饮料。

I drink two cans of Matina yerba mate cold brew in the morning, and I often drink a third can in the early afternoon.

我早上喝两罐马蒂纳马黛茶冷萃，通常在下午早些时候喝第三罐。

If you'd like to try Matina, you can go to drinkmatina.com/huberman.

如果您想尝试 Matina，可以访问 Drinkmatina.com/huberman。

Right now, Matina is offering a free one-pound bag of loose leaf yerba mate tea and free shipping with the purchase of two cases of their cold brew yerba mate.

目前，Matina 提供一袋免费的一磅散叶马黛茶，购买两箱冷泡马黛茶可免运费。

Again, that's drinkmatina.com/huberman to get a free bag of yerba mate loose leaf tea and free shipping.

再次强调，访问 Drinkmatina.com/huberman 可免费获得一袋马黛茶散叶茶并免运费。

You can also find Matina at all SunLife locations and Erewhon locations.

您还可以在所有 SunLife 地点和 Erewhon 地点找到 Matina。

So please be sure to look for it both at SunLife and at Erewhon.

因此，请务必在 SunLife 和 Erewhon 寻找它。

Today's episode is also brought to us by Eight Sleep.

今天的节目也是八觉给我们带来的。

Eight Sleep makes smart mattress covers with cooling, heating, and sleep tracking capacity.

August Sleep 生产具有冷却、加热和睡眠跟踪功能的智能床垫套。

Now, I've spoken many times before on this podcast about the critical need for us to get adequate amounts of quality sleep each night.

现在，我之前已经在这个播客中多次谈到我们每晚获得充足的优质睡眠的迫切需要。

One of the best ways to ensure a great night's sleep is to control the temperature of your sleeping environment.

确保一夜好眠的最佳方法之一是控制睡眠环境的温度。

And that's because in order to fall and stay deeply asleep, your body temperature actually has to drop by about one to three degrees.

这是因为为了入睡并保持深度睡眠，您的体温实际上必须下降约一到三度。

And in order to wake up feeling refreshed and energized, your body temperature actually has to increase by about one to three degrees.

为了醒来时感觉神清气爽、精力充沛，您的体温实际上必须升高约一到三度。

Eight Sleep makes it incredibly easy to control the temperature of your sleeping environment by allowing you to program the temperature of your mattress cover at the beginning, middle, and end of the night.

八睡眠让您可以非常轻松地控制睡眠环境的温度，您可以在晚上的开始、中间和结束时对床垫套的温度进行编程。

I've been sleeping on an Eight Sleep mattress cover for well over three years now, and it has completely transformed my sleep for the better.

我已经睡在八睡眠床垫罩上三年多了，它彻底改变了我的睡眠质量。

Eight Sleep recently launched their newest generation pod cover, the Pod 4 Ultra.

八睡眠最近推出了他们最新一代的 Pod 4 Ultra。

The Pod 4 Ultra has improved cooling and heating capacity, higher fidelity sleep tracking technology, and it also has snoring detection that remarkably will automatically lift your head a few degrees to improve your airflow and stop your snoring.

Pod 4 Ultra 具有改进的冷却和加热能力、更高保真度的睡眠跟踪技术，并且还具有打鼾检测功能，可以自动将您的头部抬起几度，以改善气流并停止打鼾。

If you'd like to try an Eight Sleep mattress cover, you can go to eightsleep.com/huberman to save $350 off their Pod 4 Ultra.

如果您想尝试八睡眠床垫套，您可以访问八睡眠.com/huberman，在 Pod 4 Ultra 上可节省 350 美元。

Eight Sleep currently ships to the USA, Canada, UK, select countries in the EU, and Australia.

八睡眠目前运往美国、加拿大、英国、欧盟部分国家和澳大利亚。

Again, that's eightsleep.com/huberman.

再说一遍，这是八睡眠.com/huberman。

Today's episode is also brought to us by Maui Nui Venison.

今天的节目也是由 Maui Nui Venison 为我们带来的。

Maui Nui Venison is the most nutrient-dense and delicious red meat available.

毛伊努伊鹿肉是营养最丰富、最美味的红肉。

I've spoken before on this podcast about the fact that most of us should be seeking to get about one gram of quality protein per pound of body weight every day.

我之前在这个播客上谈到过这样一个事实：我们大多数人都应该寻求每天每磅体重摄入一克优质蛋白质。

That protein provides critical building blocks for things like muscle repair and synthesis but also promotes overall health, given the importance of muscle as an organ.

考虑到肌肉作为器官的重要性，这种蛋白质为肌肉修复和合成等提供了关键的组成部分，而且还可以促进整体健康。

Eating enough quality protein each day is also a terrific way to stave off hunger.

每天吃足够的优质蛋白质也是消除饥饿的好方法。

One of the key things, however, is to make sure that you're getting enough quality protein without ingesting excess calories.

然而，关键的事情之一是确保您获得足够的优质蛋白质而不摄入过多的热量。

Maui Nui Venison has an extremely high-quality protein-to-calorie ratio, such that getting that one gram of protein per pound of body weight is both easy and doesn't cause you to ingest an excess amount of calories.

毛伊努伊鹿肉具有极高品质的蛋白质与卡路里比率，因此每磅体重获取一克蛋白质既容易又不会导致您摄入过量的卡路里。

Also, Maui Nui Venison is absolutely delicious.

另外，茂宜岛鹿肉绝对美味。

They have venison steaks, ground venison, and venison bone broth.

他们有鹿肉排、鹿肉末和鹿骨汤。

I personally like and eat all of those.

我个人喜欢并吃所有这些。

In fact, I probably eat a Maui Nui Venison burger pretty much every day, and occasionally I'll swap that for a Maui Nui steak.

事实上，我可能几乎每天都会吃毛伊努伊鹿肉汉堡，偶尔我会把它换成毛伊努伊牛排。

And if you're traveling a lot or simply on the go, they have a very convenient Maui Nui Venison jerky, which has 10 grams of quality protein per stick at just 55 calories.

如果您经常旅行或只是在旅途中，他们有一种非常方便的 Maui Nui 鹿肉干，每棒含有 10 克优质蛋白质，热量仅为 55 卡路里。

While Maui Nui offers the highest quality meat available, their supplies are limited.

虽然毛伊努伊岛提供最优质的肉类，但供应有限。

Responsible population management of the axis deer on the island of Maui means that they will not go beyond harvest capacity.

对毛伊岛上的轴鹿进行负责任的种群管理意味着它们不会超出收获能力。

Signing up for a membership is therefore the best way to ensure access to their high-quality meat.

因此，注册会员是确保获得高品质肉类的最佳方式。

If you'd like to try Maui Nui Venison, you can go to mauinuivenison.com/huberman to get 20% off your membership or first order.

如果您想尝试 Maui Nui 鹿肉，您可以访问 mauinuivenison.com/huberman 享受会员资格或首次订单 20% 的折扣。

Again, that's mauinuivenison.com/huberman.

同样，这是 mauinuivenison.com/huberman。

And now for my discussion with Dr. Layne Norton.

现在我与莱恩·诺顿博士进行讨论。

Dr. Layne Norton, welcome back.

莱恩·诺顿博士，欢迎回来。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Thanks for having me back.

谢谢你让我回来。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Before we jump in, I want to get your stance on what constitutes evidence.

在我们开始讨论之前，我想了解一下您对什么构成证据的立场。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Hmm.

嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Because I think a big reason why you are considered one of the, if not the most trusted person in the realm of nutrition and training, is that you set a very high bar for what you consider science-based fact that motivates action.

因为我认为您被认为是营养和培训领域最值得信赖的人之一（即使不是最值得信赖的人）的一个重要原因是，您为您认为激励行动的基于科学的事实设定了非常高的标准。

So to just kind of break this down based on my read of the landscape online, it seems that there's a group of people, I don't know what to call them, purists or something, who, unless there's a randomized control trial, so that means in humans, or several that points in a particular direction, they are very unlikely to adopt a new practice.

因此，根据我在网上阅读的情况来分析这一点，似乎有一群人，我不知道该怎么称呼他们，纯粹主义者或其他人，除非有随机对照试验，否则这意味着人类或指向特定方向的几个人，他们不太可能采用新的做法。

Say, removing a given food or nutrient, adding a given food or nutrient, training a certain way, not training a certain way.

比如说，去除给定的食物或营养素，添加给定的食物或营养素，以某种方式训练，而不是以某种方式训练。

Okay, that's one group.

好吧，这是一组。

Then there are the people who, if they are told something could be of value, they hear it's worked very well for somebody, maybe they see some before and afters, and it gets mapped to a mechanism that exists in humans and animals.

还有一些人，如果他们被告知某件事可能有价值，他们听说这对某人非常有效，也许他们看到了一些之前和之后的情况，并且它被映射到人类和动物中存在的机制。

Like, oh, there's this molecule, and if this molecule increases, X, Y, and Z happens, and training this way or eating this way increases that molecule, for instance.

就像，哦，有这个分子，如果这个分子增加，X、Y 和 Z 就会发生，例如，以这种方式训练或以这种方式饮食会增加该分子。

But no randomized control trial, then they're willing to try it or adopt it.

但没有随机对照试验，那么他们就愿意尝试或采用。

And then there's a third, probably a fourth category as well, where people say they don't trust science anyway, science is flawed, or the controls required to design a really good experiment are so constrained that they don't mimic the real world well enough.

然后还有第三类，也可能是第四类，人们说他们无论如何都不相信科学，科学是有缺陷的，或者设计一个真正好的实验所需的控制非常有限，以至于他们不能很好地模仿现实世界。

And so they're really just interested in what works.

所以他们真的只对有效的方法感兴趣。

So they look to people that seem to have achieved the results they want.

因此，他们会寻找那些似乎已经取得了他们想要的结果的人。

Feel free to add another group, but which group would you consider yourself in personally?

随意添加另一个组，但您个人认为自己属于哪个组？

And then where does your evidence that you put out online and today come from?

那么你今天在网上发布的证据来自哪里？

And I already know the answer to the last question, but I think it was important to kind of spell out the landscape.

我已经知道最后一个问题的答案，但我认为阐明情况很重要。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

So everything you just mentioned would fall under the category of evidence.

所以你刚才提到的一切都属于证据范畴。

Everything that we can observe is evidence.

我们能观察到的一切都是证据。

But I think what people really struggle with is the idea of different levels of quality of evidence.

但我认为人们真正困扰的是不同级别的证据质量的想法。

And if I had to put myself into a group, I have definitely been on the side of, well, there's a case study in this journal, and we're going to try that now because it must work.

如果我必须把自己归入一个群体，我肯定会站在这一边，嗯，这本杂志上有一个案例研究，我们现在要尝试一下，因为它一定有效。

Or my friend tried this and they said it worked, so I'm going to try it.

或者我的朋友尝试过这个，他们说它有效，所以我要尝试一下。

And then I've also gone to the group of, well, there's no human randomized control trial, so I don't believe it.

然后我也参加了一个小组，嗯，没有人体随机对照试验，所以我不相信。

And I think now, I'm 42 now and I've been doing this for two decades.

现在我想，我已经 42 岁了，我已经这样做了二十年了。

I think where I'd fall into is it really depends on how the individual is talking about the evidence.

我认为我会陷入困境，这实际上取决于个人如何谈论证据。

Okay, so as you can probably imagine, I get sent a lot of stuff for people to like, "Oh, debunk this." And a lot of times people will send me things and I'll go, "Hey, this person said this is their opinion." That's fine.

好吧，正如你可能想象的那样，我收到了很多东西，让人们喜欢，“哦，揭穿这个。”很多时候人们会给我发东西，我会说：“嘿，这个人说这是他们的意见。”没关系。

I may disagree with their opinion, but I'm not going to rake them over the coals for them saying, "This is an opinion," or, "This is my personal experience." That's evidence.

我可能不同意他们的观点，但我不会因为他们说“这是一种观点”或“这是我的个人经历”而对他们进行严厉批评。这就是证据。

It's low-quality evidence, but it is evidence.

这是低质量的证据，但它是证据。

I think I kind of fall in a line of, I ideally want to see human randomized control trials.

我想我有点符合，我理想地希望看到人类随机对照试验。

But there's also, as you mentioned, practical limitations with how things are implemented, and I think one of the things that gave me a very unique perspective was the fact that I was doing my PhD in nutrition after I did a bachelor's in biochemistry.

但正如您所提到的，实施方式也存在实际限制，我认为给我带来非常独特视角的原因之一是，我在获得生物化学学士学位后正在攻读营养学博士学位。

So I had that mechanistic understanding.

所以我有机械的理解。

And then I had an absolutely wonderful PhD advisor, Don Layman, who just, shout out to him, got a lifetime achievement award by the American Society of Nutrition 20 years too late.

然后我有一位非常出色的博士生导师，唐·莱曼 (Don Layman)，他刚刚获得美国营养学会颁发的终身成就奖，晚了 20 年。

But he was just incredible at being able to understand the small things, but how they impacted the big things and what it looked like overall.

但他令人难以置信的是，他能够理解小事情，以及它们如何影响大事情以及整体情况。

It's like a conductor looking at a symphony, right?

这就像指挥家看交响乐一样，对吧？

And understanding how the trumpet sounds affects everything else, but then not getting so tied up in that that he can't hear all the music.

理解小号的声音如何影响其他一切，但又不会太沉迷于听不到所有的音乐。

Right?

正确的？

And he was so good at that and was so good at getting me to think that way.

他非常擅长这一点，并且非常善于让我这样思考。

And so I think where people out in the landscape trying to dissimilate this really struggle is they don't really know, well, this person cited a study and they equate that as evidence that's equal with any other evidence, right?

所以我认为，人们试图区分这场真正的斗争的地方是，他们并不真正知道，这个人引用了一项研究，他们将其视为与任何其他证据同等的证据，对吗？

And as a researcher, you know not all evidence is created equal, not all journal articles are created equal.

作为一名研究人员，您知道并非所有证据都是平等的，并非所有期刊文章都是平等的。

And honestly, people who don't have a research background, it's hard to unpack this stuff.

老实说，没有研究背景的人很难解开这些东西。

So what I would say is you have to be very careful with people who cite studies.

所以我想说的是，你必须对引用研究的人非常小心。

And one of the things I'll say, too, is there's nothing more dangerous than somebody who's read a biochemistry book.

我还要说的一件事是，没有什么比读过一本生物化学书的人更危险的了。

Because they're going to see pathway, biochemical pathway, there must be an outcome.

因为他们要看到途径、生化途径，所以一定有结果。

So outcomes are what we really care about, right?

所以结果才是我们真正关心的，对吗？

At the end of the day, and when I say outcomes, gaining muscle mass, losing fat mass, risk of cardiovascular disease, insulin sensitivity, cancer.

归根结底，当我说结果时，增加肌肉质量、减少脂肪质量、心血管疾病的风险、胰岛素敏感性、癌症。

These are hard outcomes, right?

这些都是艰难的结果，对吧？

And those outcomes are the summation of dozens, if not hundreds, if not thousands, of biochemical pathways all summing up to an outcome.

这些结果是数十个、数百个、甚至数千个生化途径的总和，所有这些生化途径最终得出一个结果。

And just because something has a biochemical pathway doesn't mean it will create an outcome.

仅仅因为某物具有生化途径并不意味着它会产生结果。

But if there's an outcome, there's absolutely a mechanism to explain it.

但如果有结果，绝对有一个机制可以解释它。

Now, let me give you an example of why this stuff can be so complicated, and why it's so easy for people to-- If you want to create a narrative, you can always find a study to create a narrative.

现在，让我给你举一个例子，说明为什么这些东西会如此复杂，以及为什么人们如此容易——如果你想创造一个叙述，你总是可以找到一个研究来创造一个叙述。

Aspirin, we would agree, is an anticoagulant.

我们同意，阿司匹林是一种抗凝剂。

There's a reason they give it to patients who are at risk for heart disease or a heart attack.

他们将其给予有心脏病或心脏病发作风险的患者是有原因的。

It's because it reduces blood clots, reduces coagulation.

这是因为它可以减少血栓，减少凝血。

It also activates procoagulant pathways.

它还激活促凝血途径。

But the overall outcome is anticoagulation.

但总体结果是抗凝。

But if I wanted to create a narrative that aspirin was bad for blood clots, I could say, "Well, look at these biochemical pathways it activates." And you see this, for example, I could create a narrative that smoking is not bad for you.

但如果我想创造一个阿司匹林对血栓有害的叙述，我可以说，“好吧，看看它激活的这些生化途径。”你看，例如，我可以编造一个故事，说吸烟对你没有坏处。

Okay?

好的？

I remember reading a meta-analysis of the effect of smoking on the risk of adenocarcinoma, right?

我记得读过一篇关于吸烟对腺癌风险影响的荟萃分析，对吗？

And there's a forest plot with probably about 50 studies, and most of those studies are to the very far right of the line, which is increases risk.

有一个森林图，大约有 50 项研究，其中大多数研究都位于该线的最右侧，这增加了风险。

And I think the overall effect was like 300 or 400% increased risk of adenocarcinoma.

我认为总体效果是腺癌风险增加了 300% 或 400%。

But there were two studies that were to the left of the line.

但有两项研究位于该线的左侧。

Not by much, and it wasn't statistically significant, but I could say, "Hey, look, I could cite these two studies, PMID.

差别不大，而且在统计上也不显着，但我可以说，“嘿，看，我可以引用这两项研究，PMID。

They showed no increased risk of adenocarcinoma and actually it might be slightly protective.

他们没有表现出患腺癌的风险增加，实际上它可能具有轻微的保护作用。

And by the way, did you know that smoking decreases the risk of Parkinson's by 30% to 40%?" And by the way, that's very consistent in the literature, right?

顺便问一下，您是否知道吸烟可使患帕金森病的风险降低 30% 至 40%？”顺便说一句，这在文献中非常一致，对吧？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah, that's true.

是的，确实如此。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

So I can start creating this narrative that smoking-- But we know smoking's not good for you.

所以我可以开始创造这样一个故事：吸烟——但我们知道吸烟对你没有好处。

It's not good for you.

这对你不好。

Raise the risk of lung cancer, all different kinds of cancers, cardiovascular disease, massive increase in risk, right?

增加患肺癌、各种癌症、心血管疾病的风险，大幅增加，对吗？

But I could thread the needle of science using these cherry-picked studies.

但我可以利用这些精心挑选的研究来推动科学的发展。

And so what I'll tell people is if I go into a topic, if I go into something, what I'm looking for, highest quality of evidence is, first off, do we have some meta-analyses on this topic, right?

所以我要告诉人们的是，如果我进入一个主题，如果我进入某件事，我正在寻找什么，最高质量的证据是，首先，我们是否对这个主题有一些荟萃分析，对吗？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Do you want to just explain for the general listener what a meta-analysis is?

您想向普通听众解释什么是荟萃分析吗？

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Sure.

当然。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Just so you can kind of top contour.

这样你就可以形成顶部轮廓。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Absolutely.

绝对的。

So a meta-analysis is basically where you're trying to compile studies that ask similar questions and look at what is the overall effect.

因此，荟萃分析基本上就是尝试编制提出类似问题的研究，并看看总体效果如何。

Do we have a consensus in the literature?

我们在文献中有共识吗？

And usually they're going to show some kind of forest plot of all these studies, and however far right or left of the center line is giving you an idea of how powerful the effect was in that study, and then you can see the confidence intervals in terms of how much variability there was.

通常他们会显示所有这些研究的某种森林图，无论中心线的右侧或左侧有多远，都可以让您了解该研究中的效果有多大，然后您可以看到存在多少变异性的置信区间。

And then you can see the thickness of the dot on there, which shows how much it contributed to the overall analysis by usually how many subjects were in it.

然后你可以看到那里的点的厚度，这显示了它对整体分析的贡献程度，通常是有多少受试者在其中。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right.

对。

One study with 10 subjects would have a very small dot compared to a subject with 500 subjects.

一项涉及 10 名受试者的研究与一项涉及 500 名受试者的研究相比，其点非常小。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Exactly.

正是如此。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Okay.

好的。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

And so you're trying to-- Now, you can do a bad meta-analysis based on inclusion criteria, and that's where it's important to look at, but let me give you an example of a meta-analysis I cite pretty frequently.

所以你试图——现在，你可以根据纳入标准做一个糟糕的荟萃分析，这就是重要的地方，但让我给你一个我经常引用的荟萃分析的例子。

The inclusion criteria is very important to make sure that you answer the question that you want to answer.

纳入标准对于确保您回答您想要回答的问题非常重要。

And I say this when you're reading scientific studies.

当你阅读科学研究时我会这么说。

I'm like, "Listen, just because there's a headline in even a paper, just because the conclusion says something, that is the author's opinion." Okay?

我想，“听着，仅仅因为一篇论文中有一个标题，仅仅因为结论说了一些东西，那就是作者的观点。”好的？

You need to check to see, did they actually test what they're talking about?

你需要检查一下，他们是否真的测试了他们所说的内容？

And are the tests they use valid, right?

他们使用的测试有效吗？

So this meta-analysis was looking at lower carb diets versus higher carb diets or low fat diets.

因此，这项荟萃分析着眼于低碳水化合物饮食与高碳水化合物饮食或低脂肪饮食。

And the inclusion criteria, this was done by Kevin Hall of the NIH back in 2017, I want to say.

我想说的是，纳入标准是由 NIH 的 Kevin Hall 于 2017 年制定的。

And I thought he did a great job at the inclusion criteria, which was, we're only going to include controlled feeding trials where the food is provided to participants, because obviously we know the limitations of free-living studies with nutrition.

我认为他在纳入标准方面做得很好，也就是说，我们只会纳入向参与者提供食物的受控喂养试验，因为显然我们知道自由生活营养研究的局限性。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right.

对。

Self-report.

自我报告。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

People sneak, people forget.

人们偷偷摸摸，人们忘记了。

Yeah.

是的。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

We are going to make sure that these studies equated calories for the reasons we talk about, you got to compare apples to apples, right?

我们将确保这些研究将卡路里等同起来，因为我们谈论的原因，你必须将苹果与苹果进行比较，对吧？

So a lot of studies will come out saying fasting produced more fat loss, low carb produced, but then they didn't control calories, and it's very likely these people just ate less.

所以很多研究都会说禁食可以减少更多的脂肪，产生低碳水化合物，但他们没有控制卡路里，很可能这些人只是吃得更少。

So they controlled calories, and they controlled protein, which is also important because protein changes the composition of weight loss.

所以他们控制了卡路里，也控制了蛋白质，这也很重要，因为蛋白质改变了减肥的成分。

Protein has a thermic effect.

蛋白质具有热效应。

Protein increases lean mass retention.

蛋白质可以增加瘦肉质量的保留。

So that can change how much fat you lose.

这样可以改变你减掉的脂肪量。

And I think they also had a requirement of a minimum of four weeks, right?

我认为他们也有至少四个星期的要求，对吗？

And the outcome was looking at changes in fat mass, not fat oxidation, not energy expenditure.

结果是观察脂肪量的变化，而不是脂肪氧化，也不是能量消耗。

It actually looked at the outcome that they cared about.

它实际上着眼于他们关心的结果。

And they showed no difference, right?

他们没有表现出任何区别，对吗？

So I thought, well, that's a very well-done meta-analysis because the inclusion criteria make a lot of sense for the question that they want to answer, which is not is one diet easier to stick to?

所以我想，嗯，这是一个非常出色的荟萃分析，因为纳入标准对于他们想要回答的问题很有意义，这不是一种饮食更容易坚持吗？

Not is it more practical?

不是更实用吗？

The question was, mechanically, do these diets produce differences when we're comparing apples to apples in actual fat loss?

问题是，从本质上讲，当我们比较苹果与苹果的实际减脂效果时，这些饮食是否会产生差异？

And the answer was no, right?

答案是否定的，对吧？

And then when you look at the other meta-analyses that have been done, they tend to support that, right?

然后当你查看其他已经完成的荟萃分析时，他们往往会支持这一点，对吗？

So the first thing I'm going to look at is, all right, these meta-analyses tend to be looked at as the highest form of evidence, right?

所以我要看的第一件事是，好吧，这些荟萃分析往往被视为最高形式的证据，对吧？

Because you're compiling a bunch of different studies, which, listen, we know there are bad studies that get done.

因为你正在编制一堆不同的研究，听着，我们知道有些研究做得很糟糕。

I think the amount of studies that get just straight up faked is probably much lower than people think.

我认为直接伪造的研究数量可能比人们想象的要少得多。

But-

但是——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

One hopes.

一个希望。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah, I would agree.

是的，我同意。

I think that people make errors.

我认为人们会犯错误。

I do think that a lot of "bad papers" or let's just say false conclusions arise from elimination of data that did not fit the person's desired outcome.

我确实认为很多“糟糕的论文”或者我们只是说错误的结论是由于删除了不符合人们期望结果的数据而产生的。

And the reason I say that is I think it's impossible to control for.

我这么说的原因是我认为这是不可能控制的。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So you've got the student or postdoc doing the experiment The results don't come out the way they would've preferred, and then they're, let's just say I've observed before, never in my laboratory fortunately, but cases where people come up with reasons why that particular experiment was invalid because-

所以你让学生或博士后做实验 结果并没有按照他们想要的方式出来，然后他们，让我们说我以前观察过，幸运的是从来没有在我的实验室中观察过，但是人们提出了特定实验无效的原因，因为 -

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

the mice were initially sick, or the lot of drug that they used was heading towards expiration.

这些小鼠最初生病了，或者它们使用的大量药物即将过期。

They come up with reasons to exclude.

他们想出了排除的理由。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Rather than outright data fabrication, where people literally create results that aren't there.

而不是彻底的数据捏造，人们实际上创造了不存在的结果。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And there are a number of different examples throughout history where people have done that, but I like to think that those are more rare.

历史上有很多不同的例子，人们都这样做过，但我认为这些例子更为罕见。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

I think that's probably pretty small.

我认为这可能很小。

My experience is the same as you.

我的经历和你一样。

I didn't see much of that, or I never saw it observed.

我没有看到太多这样的事情，或者说我从来没有看到它被观察到。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Usually end up reading about that in the form of retractions-

通常最终会以撤回的形式阅读相关内容-

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Right

右

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

in journals that come out nowadays more close to the publications because of AI's ability to scan images and things of that sort.

由于人工智能具有扫描图像和类似内容的能力，现在出版的期刊更接近出版物。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Yeah.

是的。

I think usually if I see a paper and the conclusion just straight up I go, "Oh, I don't know about that." When I go in and I read the methods, and I read how they analyzed it, and I read how they measured things, 99% of the time I walk away and go, "Okay, I'm not surprised they found what they found." Right?

我想通常如果我看到一篇论文并且直接得出结论，我会说：“哦，我不知道这一点。”当我进去阅读方法，阅读他们如何分析方法，阅读他们如何测量事物时，99％的时间我走开并说，“好吧，他们发现了他们的发现，我并不感到惊讶。”正确的？

Because, again, and this does happen and it shouldn't, but a lot of studies are set up to find what people want to find.

因为，这确实发生了，但它不应该发生，但是很多研究都是为了找到人们想要找到的东西。

You can bias things in a certain way.

你可以以某种方式对事物产生偏见。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Well, and what nobody talks about or it's not discussed enough is that a lot of times the way the paper is written poses a question after the results are in.

好吧，没有人谈论或讨论得不够充分的是，很多时候论文的写作方式在结果出来后提出了一个问题。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And this is really a not correct way to do science.

这确实是一种不正确的科学研究方法。

In clinical trials, one has to wage a hypothesis-- excuse me, wager a hypothesis from the outset.

在临床试验中，人们必须做出一个假设——对不起，从一开始就做出一个假设。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Yep.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And you go test that hypothesis.

然后你去检验这个假设。

You're not asking a question, you're saying-

你不是在问问题，你是在说——

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

And you have to say what you're going to measure.

而且你必须说出你要测量什么。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right.

对。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Exactly.

正是如此。

Whereas in more typical laboratory science, people will design an experiment.

而在更典型的实验室科学中，人们会设计一个实验。

They have hypotheses, but then depending on how the experiments work out or don't work out, oftentimes they'll change the question-

他们有假设，但根据实验的结果或不成功，他们通常会改变问题——

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Right

右

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

they'll modify the hypotheses, and one would, as a reader, as a journaler-

他们会修改假设，而作为一名读者、一名记者，人们会——

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

You never know

你永远不知道

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

as a reviewer, one will never know.

作为一名审稿人，人们永远不会知道。

And so that's a sleight of hand that is, I would say, unfortunately, is very common in bench science.

不幸的是，这是一种花招，在实验室科学中很常见。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

But I will say, very rarely do I say, "This was a bad study." Often what I'll say is, "I don't agree with their conclusion based on their data and their design, but the data is the data." I was just very fortunate, again, to my PhD advisor, I have so much gratitude because he just right away was like, "Hey, if we're wrong about something, that's fine." And I'll give you an example of how results can seem to conflict, but how things are designed.

但我要说的是，我很少说：“这是一项糟糕的研究。”我经常说的是，“我不同意他们根据他们的数据和设计得出的结论，但数据就是数据。”对于我的博士导师来说，我再次感到非常幸运，我非常感激，因为他马上就说，“嘿，如果我们在某件事上错了，那也没关系。”我将举一个例子来说明结果如何看似冲突，但事情是如何设计的。

We actually wanted to test does protein quality make a difference, and we wanted to look at it at not low, but just kind of like RDA levels of protein.

我们实际上想测试蛋白质质量是否会产生影响，并且我们想以不低但类似于 RDA 的蛋白质水平来观察它。

And we saw that protein quality did make a difference at those levels of protein.

我们发现蛋白质质量确实对这些蛋白质水平产生影响。

But if you look at experiments where people are feeding high levels of protein, like 1.6 to two grams per kilogram of body weight, you don't really see much difference in lean mass or protein synthesis with looking at different protein sources.

但如果你观察人们喂食高水平蛋白质的实验，比如每公斤体重 1.6 到 2 克，你就会发现不同的蛋白质来源在去脂质量或蛋白质合成方面并没有太大差异。

Well, that's because it's much more regulatory on a low end because you're closer to those thresholds that trigger that signaling.

嗯，那是因为低端的监管要严格得多，因为你更接近触发该信号的阈值。

And so we wanted to show at that level that it made a difference, but then we also acknowledged, okay, at this level, it probably doesn't make as much of a difference.

因此，我们想在这个层面上表明它会产生影响，但后来我们也承认，好吧，在这个层面上，它可能不会产生太大的影响。

But people can read those things and say, "Well, I don't believe studies because they're conflicting." But no, when you read how it was designed, I can easily say-- I remember there was somebody sent me a study and said, "Well, how does this fit with your data?" Which they were comparing rice versus whey protein and found that both stimulated protein synthesis to the same degree.

但人们可以读到这些东西并说：“嗯，我不相信研究，因为它们是相互矛盾的。”但不，当你读到它是如何设计的时，我可以很容易地说——我记得有人给我发了一份研究报告，并说：“嗯，这与你的数据相符吗？”他们将大米与乳清蛋白进行比较，发现两者都以相同程度刺激蛋白质合成。

And I said, "Well, they used 40 grams of protein." If you get protein high enough, you can max out protein synthesis regardless of the form of protein you're using.

我说：“嗯，他们使用了 40 克蛋白质。”如果你获得的蛋白质足够高，无论你使用哪种形式的蛋白质，你都可以最大限度地合成蛋白质。

And so that's just one of those examples, right?

这只是其中之一，对吧？

So when I'm looking through this stuff, I'm looking at, okay, does there seem to be a consensus in the data?

因此，当我查看这些内容时，我会考虑，数据中是否存在共识？

And then is it, like in these meta-analyses, does the inclusion criteria make sense?

那么，就像在这些荟萃分析中一样，纳入标准有意义吗？

And then if there's no real agreement amongst the meta-analyses, then I'm looking at, okay, what do the most tightly controlled studies show, like in the randomized control trials?

然后，如果荟萃分析之间没有真正的一致性，那么我会看看，最严格控制的研究（例如随机对照试验）显示了什么？

And then I'm kind of basing an opinion off that.

然后我就以此为基础提出自己的观点。

But you know the hierarchy of evidence, the pyramid.

但你知道证据的层次结构，即金字塔。

You got meta-analysis, systematic reviews, randomized control trials.

你得到了荟萃分析、系统评价、随机对照试验。

You have cohort data.

您有队列数据。

Epidemiology and then animal studies tend to get kind of lumped in together.

流行病学和动物研究往往会被混为一谈。

And then you got case studies and so on and so forth, right?

然后你有案例研究等等，对吧？

And so all that stuff is valid.

所以所有这些都是有效的。

It's all valid.

这都是有效的。

I think where I spend a lot of time on social media is, for example, I'll give you a great example.

例如，我认为我在社交媒体上花费了大量时间的地方是，我会给你一个很好的例子。

Someone saying, "Well, you don't want to eat cruciferous vegetables because they have isothiocyanates in them, which can bind to iodine, and that is going to impair your thyroid function, lower your metabolic rate, and cause you weight gain." And so that's a pathway.

有人说，“好吧，你不想吃十字花科蔬菜，因为它们含有异硫氰酸盐，它可以与碘结合，这会损害你的甲状腺功能，降低你的新陈代谢率，并导致你体重增加。”这就是一条途径。

That's a mechanism.

这就是一个机制。

Is it possible?

是否可以？

I suppose it is possible, right?

我想这是可能的，对吧？

That pathway does exist.

这条路确实存在。

Iodine is important for thyroid function.

碘对于甲状腺功能很重要。

Isothiocyanates do bind to iodine.

异硫氰酸盐确实与碘结合。

You can take any food, even organic food, and you can find a compound in it that if you fed it in a high dose, it would have weird effects, right?

你可以吃任何食物，甚至是有机食品，你可以发现其中有一种化合物，如果你高剂量喂它，会产生奇怪的效果，对吧？

And so the question is not if you eat something, are there compounds in it that maybe activate negative biochemical pathways?

所以问题不在于你吃了什么东西，里面是否含有可能激活负面生化途径的化合物？

The question is, what is the overall outcome?

问题是，总体结果如何？

And so when these pathways are promoted versus let's see if we actually have randomized control trials in humans that measure what we actually care about.

因此，当这些途径得到推广时，让我们看看我们是否真的在人类中进行了随机对照试验来衡量我们真正关心的内容。

And so we do have, like in that particular case, we have randomized control trials looking at, okay, cruciferous vegetable intake and thyroid function, and there's no difference in the outcome And so what that says, and then no difference in BMR, and then actually people who eat more cruciferous vegetables actually tend to be a little bit leaner, but that could be a little of the healthy user bias, and they'd probably just eat less calories because they're more satiated.

所以我们确实有，就像在那个特殊案例中，我们有随机对照试验，着眼于十字花科蔬菜的摄入量和甲状腺功能，结果没有差异，也就是说，基础代谢率没有差异，实际上吃更多十字花科蔬菜的人实际上往往更瘦一点，但这可能是健康用户的偏见，他们可能会吃更少的卡路里，因为他们更饱足。

But it's certainly not going the opposite direction, right?

但它肯定不会朝相反的方向发展，对吗？

And so the point is, again, if an outcome exists, there is absolutely a mechanism to explain it.

因此，重点是，如果存在某种结果，那么绝对有一种机制可以解释它。

But just because a mechanism exists does not mean you're going to produce an outcome.

但仅仅因为机制存在并不意味着你就会产生结果。

And I got exposed to this very early because I cut my teeth on the bodybuilding message boards back in the day, where it was a bunch of nerds arguing with each other, mostly who had no background arguing, but there were some actual sports scientists and professors who would get on those every once in a while.

我很早就接触到了这一点，因为我当时在健美留言板上崭露头角，那里有一群书呆子互相争论，其中大多数没有背景争论，但也有一些真正的体育科学家和教授偶尔会讨论这些问题。

This was before social media existed.

这是在社交媒体出现之前。

And I remember I was in biochemistry class, this is 2003, and they're talking about how caffeine inhibits glycogen phosphorylase, which is a mechanism, and it exists.

我记得我在上生物化学课，那是 2003 年，他们正在谈论咖啡因如何抑制糖原磷酸化酶，这是一种机制，而且它存在。

Caffeine inhibits glycogen phosphorylase.

咖啡因抑制糖原磷酸化酶。

And so I made this post on the forums and I said, "Well, we should be having caffeine after a workout then, because it'll help with glycogen resynthesis, because it'll keep glycogen phosphorylase from breaking down glycogen." And somebody came in and said, "You're really zooming in on a blade of grass instead of zooming out and looking at the forest." Right?

所以我在论坛上发表了这篇文章，我说，“好吧，我们应该在锻炼后喝点咖啡因，因为它有助于糖原的再合成，因为它会阻止糖原磷酸化酶分解糖原。”有人进来说：“你实际上是在放大一片草叶，而不是缩小看森林。”正确的？

And biochemists, I was guilty of this, and biochemists by trade, we get very focused on pathways.

生物化学家，我对此感到内疚，而生物化学家，我们非常关注途径。

But if you think about what caffeine does overall, activates the sympathetic nervous system.

但如果你考虑一下咖啡因的总体作用，它会激活交感神经系统。

Its function is you're liberating fuel.

它的作用是释放燃料。

And some people, when they take caffeine, actually have a rise in blood glucose.

有些人服用咖啡因后，血糖实际上会升高。

So the outcome is actually counter to what that biochemical pathway is.

所以结果实际上与生化途径相反。

And so we've got to be really careful with how we promote these biochemical pathways.

因此，我们必须非常小心地促进这些生化途径。

I did a really funny post on Twitter where myself and Joseph Sundell, I'm not sure if you're familiar with him.

我在推特上发了一篇非常有趣的帖子，我和约瑟夫·桑德尔，我不确定你是否熟悉他。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

He's a cancer biologist.

他是一位癌症生物学家。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yep.

是的。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Great guy.

很棒的家伙。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yep.

是的。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

And we were joking back and forth.

我们还开着玩笑。

I said, "You know what?

我说：“你知道吗？

I bet I could come up with a pathway to get people to eat poop.

我打赌我能想出一种让人们吃粪便的方法。

I could make a compelling argument for just eating poop." And then he goes, he's like, "I'll take that bet." I'm like, "Okay, let's give it a shot." So I'm like, "What are some of the most common compounds in human fecal matter?" And one of them is butyrate, which is a short-chain fatty acid produced by fermentation.

我可以为只吃粪便提出令人信服的论据。”然后他就走了，他说，“我愿意打赌。”我想，“好吧，让我们试一试。”所以我想，“人类粪便中最常见的化合物是什么？”其中之一就是丁酸，它是一种通过发酵产生的短链脂肪酸。

So I did this post where I'm like, "Here's why you should eat poop to lose fat." Butyrate increases fat oxidation.

所以我写了这篇文章，我想，“这就是为什么你应该吃粪便来减肥。”丁酸盐会增加脂肪氧化。

I think it activates brown fat, increases insulin sensitivity, decreases inflammation.

我认为它可以激活棕色脂肪，增加胰岛素敏感性，减少炎症。

It's been shown to actually ameliorate the development of obesity in studies.

研究表明它实际上可以改善肥胖的发展。

And so I had all these PubMed ideas.

所以我有了所有这些 PubMed 想法。

Now, what I didn't tell people was those are all mostly in rodents, right?

现在，我没有告诉人们的是，这些大部分都是啮齿类动物，对吧？

And it's giving an amount of butyrate that you'd need to eat about 50 to 100 pounds of fecal matter a day in order to get, right?

它提供的丁酸量是你每天需要吃大约 50 到 100 磅粪便才能获得的，对吗？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

This is sounding like a worse and worse idea by the moment.

目前这听起来是一个越来越糟糕的想法。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

But that is very similar to a lot of the content that is out there, which is-

但这与很多现有的内容非常相似，那就是——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right

右

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

...

...

find isolated compound, scare people or promote it to be the best thing ever, and then link it to an outcome.

找到孤立的化合物，吓唬人们或将其宣传为有史以来最好的东西，然后将其与结果联系起来。

And then sometimes you can tie in epidemiology with it as well to support whatever you want.

有时你也可以将流行病学与它结合起来来支持你想要的任何东西。

But again, I do things in my training and my nutrition that don't have randomized control trials to support, right?

但同样，我在训练和营养方面所做的事情没有随机对照试验的支持，对吧？

They don't really have anything to support.

他们确实没有什么可以支持的。

It's how I've fallen into doing things.

这就是我做事的方式。

So that's okay.

所以没关系。

But what I wouldn't do is come out and say, "What I do is the best thing ever, and here's why." Especially if there was human randomized control trials to the counter.

但我不会说：“我所做的是有史以来最好的事情，原因如下。”尤其是如果有人体随机对照试验的话。

That is the biggest thing, right?

这是最重要的事情，对吧？

If we have human randomized control trials and they're going the opposite direction of a case study or an observational, there's a reason human randomized control trials, I scream about them all the time and why they're considered the gold standard of evidence.

如果我们进行人体随机对照试验，并且它们的方向与案例研究或观察相反，那么人类随机对照试验是有原因的，我一直对它们尖叫，为什么它们被认为是证据的黄金标准。

When we look at cohort data, you're just observing people.

当我们查看队列数据时，您只是在观察人们。

There's no intervention.

没有任何干预。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Maybe explain what cohort data are.

也许可以解释一下队列数据是什么。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Okay.

好的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Is it comparing two groups?

是比较两组吗？

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Sure.

当然。

So cohort data, you're comparing groups, but you're not having an intervention.

因此，队列数据，您正在比较各组，但没有进行干预。

So you're tracking them over the course of what period of time.

所以你要在一段时间内跟踪它们。

A lot of cohort studies like looking at cardiovascular disease, cancer.

很多队列研究，例如心血管疾病、癌症。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

These people decided to be vegan.

这些人决定成为素食主义者。

These people decided to be, let's just say omnivores.

这些人决定成为杂食动物。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Omnivore.

杂食动物。

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Those are some of the classic experiments, right?

这些是一些经典的实验，对吗？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And they weren't assigned to this experiment.

他们没有被分配到这个实验。

They agreed to join the experiment.

他们同意参加实验。

They've been eating this way for a while.

他们这样吃已经有一段时间了。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You ask them a bunch of questions.

你问他们一堆问题。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

And you look at, okay, over 10 years, over 20 years, who gets whatever more often or less often, right?

你看看，好吧，10 多年，20 多年，谁得到的东西更频繁或更少，对吗？

And then we try to figure out and back-calculate, okay, what's the effect and is this real?

然后我们试着弄清楚并反算，好吧，效果是什么，这是真的吗？

The problem is you have a lot of bias with those sorts of studies, meaning people don't do single habits.

问题是这类研究存在很多偏见，这意味着人们不会养成单一的习惯。

They don't isolate habits.

他们不会孤立习惯。

I actually put up a reel the other day from my appearance on Stephen Bartlett's podcast where he said, "If I want to fix my diet, I go to the gym." Because a lot of people do that.

事实上，前几天我在斯蒂芬·巴特利特的播客上放了一段我的表演，他说：“如果我想调整饮食，我就会去健身房。”因为很多人都这样做。

If they're training in the gym, they don't want to waste their effort by having a subpar diet.

如果他们在健身房训练，他们不想因为饮食不合格而浪费精力。

Now, in reality, eating a healthy diet is more important if you're not going to the gym, right?

现在，实际上，如果您不去健身房，健康饮食就更重要，对吗？

Because at least you're getting something.

因为至少你得到了一些东西。

But people do this habit coupling, and so it's really hard to disentangle those sorts of things.

但人们确实存在这种习惯耦合，因此很难理清这些事情。

Now, the reason that human randomized control trials are important is if you're designing an experiment and you randomize, what you are doing by randomly assigning people to groups, you're washing out that bias because you can assume that whatever inherent characteristics that might be coupled to whatever you're going to try are going to be randomly distributed and evenly distributed across the groups.

现在，人类随机对照试验很重要的原因是，如果你正在设计一个实验并且你随机化，你通过将人们随机分配到组中所做的事情，你正在消除这种偏见，因为你可以假设任何可能与你要尝试的东西相结合的固有特征都将随机分布并均匀分布在各组中。

Therefore, we say human randomized control trials are what's needed to establish causation, because by randomizing, you can assume whatever differences are observed between the groups are due to your treatment and not due to random chance or data artifacts.

因此，我们说人类随机对照试验是确定因果关系所需要的，因为通过随机化，您可以假设组之间观察到的任何差异都是由于您的治疗造成的，而不是由于随机机会或数据伪影造成的。

Now Randomized control trials, especially in nutrition, have very strong limitations, which is you can't do a randomized control trial for 30 years.

现在随机对照试验，特别是在营养方面，有很大的局限性，就是你不能做30年的随机对照试验。

I think the longest randomized control trial I heard about in nutrition is two years long.

我认为我听说过的营养学领域最长的随机对照试验长达两年。

Right?

正确的？

And even then, it's not going to be a very tightly controlled randomized control trial.

即便如此，这也不会是一项严格控制的随机对照试验。

And if you're talking about the tightest level of control, like a metabolic ward study, four, six weeks maybe, because you're keeping people in food jail.

如果你谈论的是最严格的控制水平，比如代谢病房研究，可能需要四到六周，因为你把人们关在食物监狱里。

And I think where some of this confusion comes from is I think people think that there's just this pool of people waiting around to be selected for experiments.

我认为这种混乱的根源在于我认为人们认为只有这一群人在等待被选中进行实验。

Like, "Yes, I'm ready.

就像，“是的，我准备好了。

I've been waiting here." No, they're people like you, like me, like just the average person walking down the street who saw a flyer and goes, "Okay, I'll volunteer for that." And the more control you try to establish over their lives, the less likely they are to do it.

我一直在这里等着。”不，他们是像你和我一样的人，就像走在街上的普通人看到传单然后说：“好吧，我会自愿参加。”你越试图对他们的生活建立更多的控制，他们就越不可能这样做。

And you probably got to pay them.

而且你可能必须付钱给他们。

I don't know anybody who would do a metabolic ward study without getting paid for it.

我不知道有谁愿意在没有报酬的情况下进行代谢病房研究。

You're basically giving up four or six weeks of your life to go do that.

为了做到这一点，你基本上要放弃四到六周的生命。

And so while I love human randomized control trials, for some things they're not always appropriate.

因此，虽然我喜欢人类随机对照试验，但对于某些事情来说它们并不总是合适的。

For example, if you're trying to look at heart disease and you want to do a one-year human randomized control trial looking at, say, saturated fat, LDL cholesterol, those sorts of things, well, how many people have heart attacks within one year after age 60?

例如，如果您想研究心脏病，并且想做一项为期一年的人体随机对照试验，研究饱和脂肪、低密度脂蛋白胆固醇等诸如此类的因素，那么，有多少人在 60 岁后的一年内心脏病发作？

You're going to look for really small differences between really small numbers, right?

您将寻找非常小的数字之间非常小的差异，对吧？

And the problem with that is you have no idea about their diet 40 years leading up to that.

问题是你对他们 40 年前的饮食一无所知。

And we know based on now the Mendelian randomization trials that the risk of LDL is more of a lifetime exposure risk.

根据现在的孟德尔随机试验，我们知道 LDL 的风险更多的是终生暴露风险。

It's not just in this narrow sliver of time.

这不仅仅是在这短短的时间内。

And so I love human randomized control trials, but it's also I try to tell people never turn your brain off.

所以我喜欢人类随机对照试验，但我也试图告诉人们永远不要关闭你的大脑。

Just because something gets published in a certain journal, just because a certain researcher said something, just because it was a certain design, it doesn't make it infallible.

仅仅因为某件事在某个期刊上发表，仅仅因为某位研究人员说了某件事，仅仅因为它是某种设计，并不意味着它就绝对正确。

Okay?

好的？

Science is perfect.

科学是完美的。

Science is what is.

科学就是事实。

But it's done by humans and humans are fallible, imperfect people with their own personal beliefs and biases and that's why I look at consensus of data first because, maybe some experiments got faked or maybe they had...

但这是由人类完成的，而人类是容易犯错的、不完美的人，有自己的个人信仰和偏见，这就是为什么我首先考虑数据共识，因为，也许有些实验是伪造的，或者也许他们……

But when it's done over, let's take something like creatine monohydrate.

但是当它完成后，我们来吃一水肌酸之类的东西。

Right?

正确的？

You have thousands of experiments done over decades of time in hundreds of different labs with many different funding sources in bunch of different countries under a bunch of different conditions.

数十年来，在数百个不同的实验室中，在不同的国家、不同的条件下，进行了数千项实验，这些实验室拥有许多不同的资金来源。

It works.

有用。

Right?

正确的？

If you go to consensus and you type in "Does creatine build muscle?" It's like 92% yes.

如果您达成共识并输入“肌酸可以增强肌肉吗？”好像 92% 是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right.

对。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Which is crazy.

这太疯狂了。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right.

对。

Consuming 5 to 10 grams of creatine monohydrate per day is going to benefit strength and muscle mass and likely cognition to some extent.

每天摄入 5 至 10 克一水肌酸将在一定程度上有益于力量和肌肉质量以及可能的认知能力。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Oh, yeah.

哦，是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, AG1.

我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商 AG1。

By now, many of you have heard me say that if I could take just one supplement, that supplement would be AG1.

到目前为止，你们很多人都听我说过，如果我只能服用一种补充剂，那么该补充剂就是 AG1。

The reason for that is AG1 is the highest quality and most complete of the foundational nutritional supplements available.

原因是 AG1 是现有的基础营养补充剂中质量最高、最全面的。

What that means is that it contains not just vitamins and minerals, but also probiotics, prebiotics and adaptogens to cover any gaps you may have in your diet and provide support for a demanding life.

这意味着它不仅含有维生素和矿物质，还含有益生菌、益生元和适应原，可以弥补您饮食中可能存在的任何空白，并为高要求的生活提供支持。

For me, even if I eat mostly whole foods and minimally processed foods, which I do for most of my food intake, it's very difficult for me to get enough fruits and vegetables, vitamins and minerals, micronutrients and adaptogens from food alone.

对我来说，即使我主要吃天然食品和最低限度加工的食品（这是我摄入的大部分食物的一部分），我也很难仅从食物中获取足够的水果和蔬菜、维生素和矿物质、微量营养素和适应原。

For that reason, I've been taking AG1 daily since 2012 and often twice a day, once in the morning or mid-morning and again in the afternoon or evening.

因此，自 2012 年以来，我每天服用 AG1，通常每天两次，一次在早上或上午，一次在下午或晚上。

When I do that, it clearly bolsters my energy, my immune system and my gut microbiome.

当我这样做时，它明显增强了我的能量、我的免疫系统和我的肠道微生物群。

These are all critical to brain function, mood, physical performance and much more.

这些对于大脑功能、情绪、身体表现等都至关重要。

If you'd like to try AG1, you can go to drinkag1.com/huberman to claim their special offer.

如果您想尝试 AG1，可以访问 Drinkag1.com/huberman 以获得特别优惠。

Right now they're giving away five free travel packs plus a year's supply of vitamin D3 K2.

目前，他们赠送五个免费旅行包以及一年的维生素 D3 K2。

Again, that's drinkag1.com/huberman to claim that special offer.

再次强调，您可以通过 Drinkag1.com/huberman 领取特别优惠。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

I realize I've been on a long diatribe.

我意识到我已经进行了很长时间的谩骂了。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

No. I wouldn't even call it a diatribe.

不，我什至不会称其为谩骂。

I think for those listening, this is pure gold because never before, certainly on this podcast or other podcasts, has anyone ever really spelled out how to discern differences in quality of evidence.

我认为对于那些听众来说，这是纯金，因为以前从来没有人，尤其是在这个播客或其他播客上，真正阐明过如何辨别证据质量的差异。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And it's mostly a free world most places and people can do what they want, but I think they need to decide what their thresholds are for quality.

这主要是一个自由的世界，大多数地方和人们都可以做他们想做的事，但我认为他们需要决定质量的门槛是什么。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Yeah.

是的。

And I think the one other thing I'll tell people is I saw this the other day.

我想我要告诉人们的另一件事是我前几天看到了这个。

I saw somebody post, I think it was a comment on one of my posts and I actually commented back.

我看到有人发帖，我认为这是对我的一篇帖子的评论，我实际上回复了评论。

They said, "I know I can trust you and whatever you say I know I can take it to the bank." And I said, "I appreciate that, but I am a flawed human like anybody else.

他们说：“我知道我可以信任你，无论你说什么，我都可以把它带到银行。”我说：“我很欣赏这一点，但我和其他人一样是一个有缺陷的人。

Please don't turn your brain off." And one of the things I've really tried to do now in this stage of my career is I want to teach people how to think because if I just give you the information and I'm giving you a fish, great, but I'd rather you understand how I came to these conclusions.

请不要关闭你的大脑。”在我职业生涯的这个阶段，我真正尝试做的一件事是我想教人们如何思考，因为如果我只是给你信息，我就给你一条鱼，很好，但我希望你明白我是如何得出这些结论的。

You can see my logic and how it tracks and then you can start applying it elsewhere.

您可以看到我的逻辑及其跟踪方式，然后您可以开始将其应用到其他地方。

And one of the things I say to people is I'm like, "If you want a quick and dirty hack for knowing who to follow, try not to listen so much to exactly the information people say, but listen to how they say it." Okay?

我对人们说的一件事是，“如果你想要一个快速而肮脏的技巧来知道要关注谁，尽量不要听太多人们所说的信息，而是听他们怎么说。”好的？

I was just telling you I was on a podcast the other day where I said, "Here's this study.

我只是告诉你，前几天我在播客上说：“这是这项研究。

I might butcher the details and if I get the math wrong, if experts out there want to comment and correct me, please do that." That is a way of talking about something where you're saying, "Hey, I could get this wrong," or, "Hey, I might be uncertain." That's very different than saying just Hard, pure.

我可能会忽略细节，如果我计算错误，如果专家想要评论并纠正我，请这样做。”这是一种谈论某事的方式，你会说，“嘿，我可能会弄错，”或者，“嘿，我可能不确定。”这与仅仅说“坚硬”、“纯粹”有很大不同。

Real experts don't really talk like best, worst, always, never.

真正的专家不会真正谈论最好、最差、总是、从不这样的说法。

They don't really use words like that.

他们实际上并不使用这样的词。

And one of my favorite phrases that I tell people, it's actually from an economist named Thomas Sowell.

我最喜欢告诉人们的一句话之一，实际上是出自一位名叫托马斯·索维尔的经济学家之口。

He said, "There are no solutions, there are only trade-offs." And for example, there's data out there that if you lower saturated fat, it may lower your testosterone.

他说：“没有解决方案，只有权衡。”例如，有数据表明，如果您降低饱和脂肪，可能会降低您的睾酮水平。

But there's also data out there that saturated fat raises LDL, which is an independent risk factor for cardiovascular disease.

但也有数据表明，饱和脂肪会升高低密度脂蛋白（LDL），而低密度脂蛋白是心血管疾病的独立危险因素。

Okay, well, there's trade-offs there, right?

好吧，这里面有一些权衡，对吧？

What do you value more?

你更看重什么？

I would argue that probably the decline in testosterone isn't really physiologically meaningful for most people.

我认为睾丸激素的下降对于大多数人来说可能并没有真正的生理意义。

But again, there's not a good or bad, there's trade-offs.

但同样，没有好或坏，只有权衡。

And I think when people get talking about biochemical pathways, one of the things I really try to hone in on is like, hey, there's not really good or bad biochemical pathways either.

我认为当人们谈论生化途径时，我真正尝试磨练的一件事是，嘿，生化途径也没有真正的好或坏。

All these things exist for a reason.

所有这些事情的存在都是有原因的。

One of the things popular is, "Well, inflammation, inflammation." I'm like, hey, you know inflammation does some things that we really need, too.

流行的说法之一是，“嗯，炎症，炎症。”我想，嘿，你知道炎症也做了一些我们真正需要的事情。

You just don't want no inflammation.

你只是不想没有炎症。

It's actually an important physiological process, right?

这实际上是一个重要的生理过程，对吗？

Now, you don't want it to run away, for sure.

现在，你肯定不希望它逃跑。

And so again, I just give my PhD advisor a lot of credit of, he's like, "Know what you know, but always question everything, even the things we feel most fundamentally are true, because that is the job of a good scientist." I'll give you one more story and then we'll move to another thing.

再说一遍，我对我的博士导师给予了很大的信任，他说，“知道你所知道的，但总是质疑一切，甚至是我们认为最根本的事情是真实的，因为这是一个优秀科学家的工作。”我再给你讲一个故事，然后我们就转向另一件事。

When I did my first experiment-- Well, actually, sorry, no, this has been my 15th experiment because my first 14 blew and didn't work.

当我做第一个实验时——嗯，实际上，抱歉，不，这是我的第 15 个实验，因为我的前 14 个实验失败了并且没有成功。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

A typical graduate career.

典型的毕业生职业。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Yeah.

是的。

And again, very patient man, very supportive.

再说一遍，非常有耐心，非常支持。

I honestly cannot give him enough credit.

老实说，我无法给予他足够的信任。

And if you look at the people that came out of that lab, a lot of studs.

如果你看看从那个实验室出来的人，就会发现很多人才。

So I did an experiment looking at whey protein, or sorry, a complete meal with whey protein ingestion and how long the duration of muscle protein synthesis was.

所以我做了一个实验，观察乳清蛋白，或者抱歉，摄入乳清蛋白的完整膳食以及肌肉蛋白合成的持续时间有多长。

Because most people measured at 60 or 90 minutes, the snapshot postprandially for protein synthesis, looking for a peak, and we're like, "Is that really where the peak is?

因为大多数人会在餐后 60 或 90 分钟（即餐后蛋白质合成快照）进行测量，寻找峰值，而我们会想，“那真的是峰值所在吗？

We don't know.

我们不知道。

We're basing this off of purified solutions.

我们基于纯化的解决方案。

So let's do a duration experiment." Right?

所以让我们做一个持续时间实验。”正确的？

And my hypothesis was, well, however long leucine is elevated in the blood is going to be how long protein synthesis stays up.

我的假设是，血液中亮氨酸升高的时间有多长，蛋白质合成就会持续多久。

And when we got the data back on protein synthesis, protein synthesis had come up, peaked at 90 minutes, and by three hours had come back down to baseline.

当我们得到蛋白质合成的数据时，蛋白质合成已经上升，在 90 分钟时达到峰值，并在 3 小时内恢复到基线。

And I went to run the plasma amino acids, and I'm like, "Okay, well, this is what we're going to see." And that's not what we saw.

我去检测血浆氨基酸，我想，“好吧，这就是我们将要看到的。”我们所看到的并非如此。

So plasma amino acids not only were still elevated, they were maxed out or plateaued at the highest level they would be at three hours, where protein synthesis was back to baseline.

因此，血浆氨基酸不仅仍然升高，而且在三小时后达到最大水平或稳定在最高水平，此时蛋白质合成回到基线。

And so I said, "Okay, well, it's got to be mTOR signaling.

所以我说，“好吧，这一定是 mTOR 信号传导。

mTOR signaling's got to be turning off or something's happening." Nope.

mTOR 信号必须被关闭或者发生了一些事情。”没有。

mTOR signaling was still elevated, right?

mTOR 信号传导仍然升高，对吧？

And we saw this through phosphorylation of the binding protein 4E-BP1, which is a proxy for mTOR activation.

我们通过结合蛋白 4E-BP1 的磷酸化看到了这一点，它是 mTOR 激活的代表。

And then I said, "Okay, well, maybe leucine isn't getting into the cell.

然后我说：“好吧，也许亮氨酸没有进入细胞。

Maybe that's why." So we looked at intracellular leucine.

也许这就是原因。”所以我们研究了细胞内亮氨酸。

Followed the exact path of plasma leucine.

遵循血浆亮氨酸的确切路径。

And so then I kept rerunning the plasma data over and over.

然后我不断地一遍又一遍地重新运行等离子体数据。

I probably ran it five times.

我大概跑了五次。

Right?

正确的？

And Lehman finally calls me into his office one day, and he goes, "So where do we stand with this duration experiment?" And I said, "Yeah, it's almost done.

有一天，雷曼终于把我叫到他的办公室，他问道：“那么我们对这个持续时间实验的立场如何呢？”我说：“是的，快完成了。

I got to run the data again because the plasma data's got to be wrong." And I saw his little eyebrow go up.

我必须再次运行数据，因为血浆数据肯定是错误的。”我看到他的小眉毛扬起。

And he goes, "Why do you think that?

他说：“你为什么这么想？

Let me see your data." He goes, "Your standard error bars are good.

让我看看你的数据。”他说：“你的标准误差线很好。

This looks to be relatively tight data.

这看起来是相对严格的数据。

How's your technique?" And I'm going through all the steps to analyze plasma amino acids.

你的技术怎么样？”我正在完成分析血浆氨基酸的所有步骤。

It's not like "CSI," by the way, everybody.

顺便说一句，这不像《CSI》。

You don't just take a pipette, put something in a centrifuge, and all of a sudden you get back data.

您不只是拿一根移液器，将一些东西放入离心机中，然后突然就得到数据。

There's many steps in here.

这里有很多步骤。

And so I showed him all that, and he goes, "It sounds like you are trying to get the data to fit your conclusion, and what you need to do is change your conclusion to fit the data." And that one line, again, it just opened my whole world up to, one, if I'm wrong, okay, cool.

所以我向他展示了所有这些，他说：“听起来你正试图让数据符合你的结论，而你需要做的是改变你的结论以适应数据。”这句话再次打开了我的整个世界，一，如果我错了，好吧，酷。

I care more about getting the right answer than being right.

我更关心得到正确的答案而不是正确的。

And that's why we were talking earlier, I'm like, there's so much stuff that I just don't believe.

这就是为什么我们之前谈论的原因，我想，有太多我不相信的事情。

I want to see 10, 20 studies before I go, "Yeah." And the other thing I'll tell people is, hey, I don't plant my flag real strong very often.

我想在我说“是的”之前先看看 10、20 项研究。我要告诉人们的另一件事是，嘿，我并不经常把我的旗帜插得很牢固。

So when you see me do it, I'm not saying I'm not fallible, but if you see me do it, you probably should pay attention, because I don't usually do that.

所以当你看到我这样做时，我并不是说我不会犯错，但是如果你看到我这样做，你可能应该注意，因为我通常不这样做。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I love that description, but now my curiosity is piqued.

我喜欢这个描述，但现在我的好奇心被激起了。

And you got to tell me, so if 90 minutes after ingesting protein, protein synthesis peaks, and then it drops to baseline at three hours, but leucine, one of the key amino acids in mTOR, which is in the pathway of cellular growth and protein synthesis, are still elevated at three hours, what is the conclusion that explains the discrepancy?

你得告诉我，如果摄入蛋白质后90分钟，蛋白质合成达到峰值，然后在三小时时降至基线，但亮氨酸（mTOR中关键氨基酸之一，在细胞生长和蛋白质合成途径中）在三小时时仍然升高，那么解释这种差异的结论是什么？

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Yeah.

是的。

So we actually looked for this for years.

所以我们实际上已经寻找这个多年了。

So a few things.

所以有几件事。

There was some other studies that supported that.

还有一些其他研究也支持这一点。

We called it a refractory response.

我们称之为难治性反应。

Actually, we didn't name it that.

事实上，我们并没有这么命名。

There was another lab that named it that.

还有另一个实验室也这么命名。

Basically, that protein synthesis was becoming refractory to the signal for protein synthesis.

基本上，蛋白质合成对蛋白质合成信号变得难以控制。

So just for real quick, I'm going to try and explain this easily.

因此，为了快速起见，我将尝试轻松地解释这一点。

So protein synthesis, this sounds like probably a very abstract thing, but it's how your body makes more protein.

蛋白质合成，这听起来可能是一个非常抽象的事情，但它是你的身体制造更多蛋白质的方式。

And whether it's in skeletal muscle, whether it's in the liver, whatever, you have your DNA, which is your genetic code, right?

无论是在骨骼肌中，还是在肝脏中，无论什么，你都有你的 DNA，这就是你的遗传密码，对吗？

And then that gets Transcribed to an mRNA.

然后它被转录成 mRNA。

By the way, I'm leaving out a lot of steps here, but just bear with me.

顺便说一句，我在这里省略了很多步骤，但请耐心等待。

That mRNA gets translated by a ribosome into a polypeptide chain or a protein.

该 mRNA 通过核糖体翻译成多肽链或蛋白质。

So a ribosome is basically attaching to the mRNA, and then based on the mRNA sequence, is bringing in amino acids to match that sequence.

因此，核糖体基本上附着在 mRNA 上，然后根据 mRNA 序列引入氨基酸来匹配该序列。

So all the proteins in your body are coded for in your DNA.

所以你体内的所有蛋白质都是在你的 DNA 中编码的。

Right?

正确的？

So when it comes to this process, there's a complex called EIF4F, which acts as a scaffold for the ribosome to hook onto the mRNA.

因此，在这个过程中，有一个称为 EIF4F 的复合物，它充当核糖体与 mRNA 挂钩的支架。

And EIF4F, the formation of it, is basically rate limited by the association of two proteins called EIF4E and EIF4G.

EIF4F 及其形成基本上受到 EIF4E 和 EIF4G 两种蛋白质结合的速率限制。

And EIF4E is bound by a binding protein 4E-BP1.

EIF4E 与结合蛋白 4E-BP1 结合。

And when leucine stimulates mTOR, mTOR stimulates the phosphorylation of 4E-BP1, which makes it unavailable for binding with EIF4E.

当亮氨酸刺激 mTOR 时，mTOR 会刺激 4E-BP1 磷酸化，使其无法与 EIF4E 结合。

It can bind to EIF4G.

它可以结合EIF4G。

That EIF4F complex can be made, brings the ribosome onto the mRNA, and now it can read, it can translate it.

可以制造 EIF4F 复合物，将核糖体带到 mRNA 上，现在它可以读取、翻译它。

So there's a little-

所以有一点——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah

是啊

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

...

...

cellular biology lesson for you.

为您提供细胞生物学课程。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah, and if people didn't follow that, don't worry about it.

是的，如果人们不遵循这一点，请不要担心。

What Layne's describing is that the presence of a bunch of molecules involved in protein synthesis is necessary but not sufficient for the protein synthesis.

莱恩的描述是，参与蛋白质合成的一堆分子的存在是必要的，但对于蛋白质合成来说还不够。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

A few other things have to happen.

还有一些其他事情必须发生。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Correct.

正确。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And apparently, those other things are not happening after 120 minutes.

显然，120 分钟后这些其他事情都不会发生。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

So another lab called it the muscle full effect.

所以另一个实验室称之为肌肉饱满效应。

Basically, the idea is once you've initiated that signal, it kind of runs, and then it's done.

基本上，这个想法是，一旦您启动了该信号，它就会运行，然后就完成了。

Right?

正确的？

And just pounding more amino acids into the system is not going to further stimulate.

仅仅向系统中注入更多氨基酸并不会进一步刺激。

In fact, there was a study done back in, I think it was 2001, I want to say by Rennie, another very well-known protein lab.

事实上，我想说的是另一个非常知名的蛋白质实验室雷尼 (Rennie) 早在 2001 年就做过一项研究。

And they infused essential amino acids for six hours and looked at skeletal muscle protein synthesis.

他们注入必需氨基酸六个小时，并观察骨骼肌蛋白质的合成。

And they found it went up and then came back down by two hours and then never went back up.

他们发现它上升了，然后在两个小时后又下降了，然后就再也没有上升过。

Right?

正确的？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Good experiment.

很好的实验。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Yeah, very interesting.

是的，非常有趣。

So we looked at a bunch of different things.

所以我们研究了很多不同的东西。

The only thing we found that perhaps explained it a little bit, and I'm sure there's other labs that would argue with me on this, and again, this is in rat skeletal muscle, which by the way, is a good model for human protein metabolism, but still.

我们发现的唯一的东西也许可以解释一点，我确信还有其他实验室会在这个问题上与我争论，而且，这是在大鼠骨骼肌中，顺便说一句，它是人类蛋白质代谢的一个很好的模型，但仍然如此。

We looked at intracellular ATP levels and actually found that they were declining kind of in concert with the decline in muscle protein synthesis.

我们观察了细胞内 ATP 水平，实际上发现它们的下降与肌肉蛋白质合成的下降是一致的。

And muscle protein synthesis is an ATP-dependent process.

肌肉蛋白质的合成是一个依赖ATP的过程。

But the process of protein turnover is energetically expensive.

但蛋白质周转过程的能量消耗非常大。

It's one of the reasons that protein has a higher thermic effect of food.

这也是蛋白质具有较高食物热效应的原因之一。

And so our hypothesis was, perhaps, by the effect of protein-stimulating protein synthesis to start this machinery is energetically expensive enough that eventually you kind of run out of steam.

因此，我们的假设是，也许通过蛋白质刺激蛋白质合成的作用来启动这台机器在能量上足够昂贵，以至于最终你会耗尽动力。

And so you have the signal there, but it just kind of ends.

所以你那里有信号，但它就这样结束了。

Right?

正确的？

Now, there have been other experiments, like Jordan Trommelen just published a paper a few months ago that got a bunch of feedback.

现在，还有其他实验，比如 Jordan Trommelen 几个月前刚刚发表了一篇论文，得到了很多反馈。

It was 100 grams of protein after a resistance training exercise and saw that it was basically a lot more of it was used than we thought would be used.

经过阻力训练后，摄入了 100 克蛋白质，我们发现它的使用量基本上比我们想象的要多得多。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right, because for many decades, it has been purported, believed, and propagated that the maximum amount of protein that you can utilize after a meal is 30 grams.

是的，因为几十年来，人们一直声称、相信和宣传饭后可以利用的蛋白质的最大量是 30 克。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It became like a holy number.

它变得像一个神圣的数字。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And this study essentially showed that more than 30 grams can be used-

而这项研究本质上表明，可以使用30克以上——

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

not just as energy, but for the sake of protein synthesis in muscle.

不仅仅是作为能量，而且是为了肌肉中的蛋白质合成。

Correct?

正确的？

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And how did that study land with you, given that it's one study?

鉴于这是一项研究，您是如何想到这项研究的？

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Without going into all the details, did that inspire you to change anything about your protein intake after training?

在不讨论所有细节的情况下，这是否激励您在训练后改变蛋白质摄入量？

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

So what I tell people is I don't make big shifts in my opinions based on single studies.

所以我告诉人们的是，我不会根据单一研究对我的观点做出重大改变。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah, why does that not surprise me?

是啊，为什么我不感到惊讶呢？

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

It shimmies me a little bit, right?

这让我有点颤抖，对吧？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

And even before that study came out, what I had said is, I think protein distribution matters, but I think it matters much, much less than total protein intake per day.

甚至在这项研究发表之前，我就说过，我认为蛋白质分布很重要，但我认为它比每天的总蛋白质摄入量要重要得多。

Because all we need to do is look at some of these resistance training studies with intermittent fasting where people are eating all their protein in an eight-hour window, and theoretically, you would think they would get less muscle growth, especially based on this refractory data, because less time to stimulate.

因为我们需要做的就是查看一些间歇性禁食的阻力训练研究，其中人们在八小时内吃掉所有蛋白质，从理论上讲，你会认为他们的肌肉生长会减少，特别是根据这些难控制的数据，因为刺激的时间更少。

But at least in the studies out of Grant Tinsley's lab, I think there's two studies that were very well done where we don't see that.

但至少在格兰特·汀斯利实验室的研究中，我认为有两项研究做得非常好，但我们没有看到这一点。

Now, important to point out, they trained during their feeding window, and they made sure they ate three high-quality, high-protein meals during that eight-hour time.

现在，需要指出的是，他们在进食窗口期间进行训练，并确保在这八小时内吃三顿高质量、高蛋白质的饭菜。

Right?

正确的？

So at least in that context, there was no difference in the amount of lean mass gained between intermittent fasting groups versus continuous feeding groups.

因此，至少在这种情况下，间歇性禁食组与连续进食组之间的瘦体重增加量没有差异。

Now-

现在——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And in the continuous feeding groups, do you recall what duration they were eating their meals over?

在连续进食组中，您还记得他们进食的时间是多长吗？

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

I think it-

我认为——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Was it probably 12 hours or so?

大概是12个小时左右吧？

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

I don't recall specifically.

具体我不记得了。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Okay.

好的。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

But I don't recall an actual defined time.

但我不记得实际定义的时间。

I'd have to go back and look at it.

我得回去看看。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

More than eight hours.

八个多小时。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

For sure.

当然。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I'm so glad we're landing here because my first, let's just call it sort of operational or actionable question- ...

我很高兴我们来到这里，因为我的第一个问题，让我们称之为可操作或可操作的问题 - ...

which came from asking on social media for questions for you was, many, many people, if not in the thousands, asked how to make sure that they're getting enough protein if they're doing something like intermittent fasting.

来自社交媒体上向你提问的问题是，很多很多人，如果不是成千上万的话，都会问，如果他们正在做间歇性禁食之类的事情，如何确保他们摄入足够的蛋白质。

And I myself fall into this category.

而我自己就属于这一类。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I don't do it for any specific purpose.

我这样做没有任何特定目的。

This was long before Satchin Panda started doing his work on time-restricted feeding, AKA intermittent fasting, but I don't tend to want to eat any food until about 11:00 a.m.

早在 Satchin Panda 开始进行限时喂食（又名间歇性禁食）的工作之前，我就不想吃任何食物，直到上午 11:00 左右。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Right.

正确的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Occasionally I wake up hungry, like this morning, and I had some eggs.

有时候我会饿着肚子醒来，比如今天早上，我就会吃一些鸡蛋。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I was particularly hungry.

我特别饿。

But I think that's representative of a lot of people.

但我认为这代表了很多人。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I want hydration and caffeine in the morning.

我早上想要补充水分和咖啡因。

I want to train in the morning, and then I want to eat pretty soon after I train.

我想在早上训练，然后我想在训练后很快就吃东西。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But what that means is that I'm eating during an eight to nine hour

但这意味着我在八到九小时内吃东西

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Right

右

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

feeding window, and if I only manage two meals in there and a snack, and I can only put 30 grams of protein per meal toward protein synthesis, we have to be careful not about using it for energy-

喂食窗口，如果我在那里只吃两餐和一份零食，每餐只能摄入30克蛋白质用于蛋白质合成，我们必须小心不要将其用作能量-

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Right

右

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

but toward protein synthesis, does that mean that I'm not going to hit my target of one gram of protein per pound of desired lean body mass?

但是对于蛋白质合成，这是否意味着我不会达到每磅所需去脂体重一克蛋白质的目标？

Because I'm 100 kilograms, I weigh about 220 pounds.

因为我是100公斤，所以我的体重大约是220磅。

I can easily eat 220 grams of protein in a nine-hour period.

我可以轻松地在 9 小时内吃掉 220 克蛋白质。

Give me three ribeyes, I'll eat all three.

给我三块肋眼牛排，我三个都吃。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I love ribeye steak.

我喜欢肋眼牛排。

But the question is, can I use that?

但问题是，我可以使用它吗？

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

So, and I'm going to bring this back around to that particular experiment.

所以，我将把这个问题带回到那个特定的实验中。

So over time, and when I left grad school, my position was that it matters, protein distribution matters.

所以随着时间的推移，当我离开研究生院时，我的立场是，蛋白质分布很重要。

So I'll give you the straight down the line scientific answer, and then I'll give you, if you inject me with true serum, what I really think answer.

所以我会给你直接的科学答案，然后如果你给我注射真正的血清，我会给你我真正认为的答案。

And so we did an experiment, again, in rats.

所以我们再次在老鼠身上做了一个实验。

We fed them completely same diets, same total calories, protein, carbs, fats.

我们给它们喂食完全相同的饮食、相同的总热量、蛋白质、碳水化合物、脂肪。

But in one group, they got that pretty much evenly across three meals, and the other group, 70% of their protein was coming at their last meal.

但在一组中，他们在三餐中获得的蛋白质几乎均匀，而另一组中，70% 的蛋白质来自最后一餐。

And then the other two meals were 15% of their daily protein.

然后另外两餐是他们每日蛋白质的15%。

And again, 11 weeks out of a rat's life, rodents live 18 to 24 months, that's a big chunk of their life.

再说一次，老鼠的寿命只有 11 周，而啮齿类动物的寿命是 18 到 24 个月，这是它们生命中的很大一部分。

Right?

正确的？

And we did see about a 5 to 10% difference in the weights of the hind limbs, in terms of muscle mass.

我们确实发现后肢的重量（肌肉质量）大约有 5% 到 10% 的差异。

Okay?

好的？

So we-

所以我们——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

In what direction?

向什么方向发展？

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Favoring equal distribution.

主张平等分配。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Right?

对吗？

Now again, hard to repeat that study in humans, and for the duration it's done.

现在，在人类身上重复这项研究以及在其完成期间都很难。

So I came out saying, "You know what?

所以我出来说：“你知道吗？

That's actually less than I thought we were going to-- I thought we were going to find bigger differences than that." Because if you're thinking about number of times you're stimulating protein synthesis, one per day versus three per day, shouldn't there be a pretty significant difference there?

这实际上比我想象的要少——我以为我们会发现比这更大的差异。”因为如果您考虑刺激蛋白质合成的次数，每天一次与每天三次，难道不应该有相当显着的差异吗？

And it was.

确实如此。

It reached the level of significance.

它达到了重要的水平。

But again, I thought the effect size was smaller than I thought.

但我再次认为效果比我想象的要小。

And so I walked out saying, "You know what?

于是我走出去说：“你知道吗？

Total protein intake is the most important thing per day.

总蛋白质摄入量是每天最重要的事情。

And then if you can distribute it relatively evenly, that's maybe the last 5 to 10%." Right?

如果你能相对均匀地分配它，那可能就是最后的 5% 到 10%。”正确的？

And you've seen some human studies where it seems to matter, most seem to show it doesn't really matter that much.

你已经看过一些人类研究，这些研究似乎很重要，但大多数似乎表明它并不那么重要。

Here's what I think.

这是我的想法。

If you're measuring an outcome like lean mass, that doesn't change much in eight weeks, unfortunately.

不幸的是，如果您测量的是瘦体重等结果，那么八周内不会发生太大变化。

It's very small differences.

这是非常小的差异。

And so I think it's going to be hard to detect that, but what I'll tell people is, if you're asking, can you build muscle on intermittent fasting?

所以我认为很难发现这一点，但我要告诉人们的是，如果你问，你能通过间歇性禁食来锻炼肌肉吗？

Absolutely.

绝对地。

Can you build a lot of muscle?

你能锻炼出很多肌肉吗？

Probably.

大概。

If you are a bodybuilder, specific population, or if your goal is to be the most muscular, strongest human being you can possibly become, I think you're probably better off not doing intermittent fasting, just because that last 5% may make a big difference, and you're never going to be able to pick that out of a human randomized control trial in eight weeks.

如果你是一名健美运动员，或者你的目标是成为最肌肉发达、最强壮的人，我认为你最好不要进行间歇性禁食，因为最后 5% 的禁食可能会产生很大的影响，而你永远无法从八周内的人体随机对照试验中选出这一点。

At least I don't think you will.

至少我认为你不会。

And so, again, I don't have any human data to really back that up, but just based on what I know about signaling and the effects we saw on animals, that's kind of my recommendation.

所以，再说一次，我没有任何人类数据来真正支持这一点，但只是基于我对信号传导的了解以及我们在动物身上看到的影响，这就是我的建议。

But most people don't fall in that category.

但大多数人不属于这一类。

Most people are just worried about, "Hey, I want to look good, build a little bit of muscle." Intermittent fasting is a perfectly fine tool for doing that.

大多数人只是担心，“嘿，我想看起来不错，锻炼一点肌肉。”间歇性禁食是实现这一目标的完美工具。

I will say, obviously we haven't studied some of the more extreme forms of fasting in terms of building muscle.

我要说的是，显然我们还没有研究过一些在增强肌肉方面更极端的禁食形式。

Like the 16/8 has been studied, but I'm thinking of a study that was done without resistance training, alternate-day fasting versus continuous kind of normal feeding.

就像 16/8 已经被研究过一样，但我正在考虑一项没有阻力训练、隔日禁食与连续正常喂养的研究。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So one day no eating, next day eat.

所以今天不吃饭，第二天再吃。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Right.

对。

So they did-

所以他们做了——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Oh, brutal

哦，残酷

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

...

...

they did-

他们做了——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Or at least for somebody like me.

或者至少对于像我这样的人来说。

I can't think of anything worse.

我想不出还有什么更糟糕的了。

I'd rather fast for three days in a row and then eat for four days in a row, simply because I know that by day two it's probably going to get easier, not harder.

我宁愿连续三天禁食，然后连续四天进食，只是因为我知道到第二天它可能会变得更容易，而不是更难。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But on/off fasting eating's got to be just torturous.

但断断续续的禁食肯定是一种折磨。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

So the way they did it was they did, the continuous group was getting 75% of their maintenance calories per day, so in a deficit.

所以他们就是这样做的，连续组每天摄入的热量是维持热量的 75%，因此存在赤字。

And then the alternate-day group was doing 150% and then zero.

然后隔日组完成了 150%，然后为零。

So you're getting an average of 75.

所以你的平均分是 75。

And they actually saw differences in lean mass at the end of that study.

在研究结束时，他们实际上看到了瘦体重的差异。

The continuous feeding group lost less lean mass than the alternate-day fasting group.

连续喂养组比隔日禁食组失去的瘦体重更少。

So that's only one study, and it didn't have resistance training.

所以这只是一项研究，而且没有进行阻力训练。

It's possible that resistance training could attenuate some of that stuff.

阻力训练可能会减弱其中一些东西。

But what I'll say is, the more extreme forms of fasting probably aren't optimal for lean mass.

但我要说的是，更极端的禁食形式可能不是瘦体重的最佳选择。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Also, can you imagine training on a day of complete fasting?

另外，你能想象在完全禁食的一天进行训练吗？

Three hours after that you're going to be dying.

三小时后你就会死去。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And then you could say, well, you could just train on the days when you eat, but then if you ever train legs hard, which I know you do, or if anyone does, and then the next day you're not going to eat anything?

然后你可以说，好吧，你可以在吃饭的日子里训练，但是如果你努力训练腿部，我知道你会这样做，或者如果有人这样做，那么第二天你就不会吃任何东西了？

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

The day after training legs properly, my appetite's increased.

正确训练腿部后的第二天，我的食欲增加了。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Yeah, so I think this is where the rubber meets the road in terms of straight down the line, the randomized control trials say this, but I still do something a little bit different.

是的，所以我认为这就是橡胶与道路直接接触的地方，随机对照试验是这么说的，但我仍然做了一些不同的事情。

Because the randomized control trials say, "Eh, protein distribution doesn't really seem to matter." But again, you inject me with true serum, I think it probably does matter a little bit.

因为随机对照试验说，“呃，蛋白质分布似乎并不重要。”但同样，你给我注射了真正的血清，我认为这可能确实有点重要。

Now, does it matter as much as total protein?

现在，它和总蛋白质一样重要吗？

Absolutely not.

绝对不是。

That is by far the biggest lever.

这是迄今为止最大的杠杆。

But again, if my context is I want to become the most muscular, strongest human being I can be, which I do, because that's where I compete, I'm going to distribute my protein probably over four to five meals per day.

但同样，如果我的背景是我想成为最肌肉发达、最强壮的人，我就会这么做，因为那是我竞争的地方，我将把我的蛋白质分配给每天四到五顿饭。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And so for you, just personally-

所以对你来说，就个人而言——

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

what time of day do you wake up, and when's your first meal?

您一天中什么时间起床？您的第一顿饭是什么时候？

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

So, well, it's summer right now, so kids are off of school, so we're usually getting up around 7:30, 8:00 in the morning.

所以，现在是夏天，孩子们放学了，所以我们通常在早上 7:30、8:00 左右起床。

And my first meal is usually within an hour.

我的第一顿饭通常在一小时内。

And then I usually eat within an hour of going to bed.

然后我通常在睡觉后一个小时内吃饭。

And then I'll have Two or three meals in between those.

然后我会在这些之间吃两顿或三顿饭。

So usually I have about four meals a day.

所以我通常一天吃四顿饭左右。

Sometimes I'll have five if it's just a longer day or just how my timing kind of goes or whatever.

有时，如果只是一天时间较长或者只是我的时间安排或其他什么原因，我会吃五个。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And does each one of your meals include approximately 30 plus grams of quality protein-

您的每一餐是否都含有约 30 克以上的优质蛋白质？

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

some starchy carbohydrate, fibrous carbohydrate, and some fat?

一些淀粉类碳水化合物、纤维状碳水化合物和一些脂肪？

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Sometimes they end up being mostly protein or whatnot, but for the most part, there's a mix in each one.

有时它们最终主要是蛋白质或其他什么，但在大多数情况下，每种物质都是混合的。

And usually around 50 grams of protein at a meal.

通常每餐含有 50 克左右的蛋白质。

I eat about 235 grams of protein a day.

我每天吃大约 235 克蛋白质。

Some people would argue that, "Oh, well, that's more than you need.

有些人会争辩说：“哦，好吧，这超出了你的需要。

The research has shown that 1.6 grams per kg maxes out the response." Here's the thing, and again, this is where scientific experiments are big, blunt instruments, okay?

研究表明，每公斤 1.6 克的剂量可以达到最大效果。”事情是这样的，再说一次，这就是科学实验是大而钝的仪器的地方，好吗？

They will tell you what not to do more often than they will tell you what to do, okay?

他们会告诉你什么不该做，而不是告诉你该做什么，好吗？

When it comes to protein, my personal opinion, and this is just I guess a little bit of intuition based off of 20 years of studying this stuff, is that I don't know if there's an actual amount of protein that maxes out the protein synthesis response.

当谈到蛋白质时，我个人的观点（这只是我基于 20 年研究这个东西的一点直觉）是，我不知道是否存在能够最大限度地提高蛋白质合成反应的蛋白质的实际数量。

I would bet, if I was a betting man, that it's kind of an asymptote.

如果我是一个赌徒，我敢打赌，这有点像渐近线。

You're familiar with-- Yeah.

你很熟悉——是的。

So your-

所以你的-

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

For people, not everyone's watching.

对于人来说，并不是每个人都在看。

I just-

我只是——

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Right

右

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

drew an asymptote.

画了一条渐近线。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Right.

对。

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

An asymptote plot.

渐近线图。

But for those who are not watching, just think about a plot quickly rising very high and then essentially stays stable at the high level.

但对于那些不看的人来说，只要想想情节迅速上升到很高，然后基本上保持在高水平稳定。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And maybe with a slight bit of taper.

也许有一点点锥度。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Yeah.

是的。

So it's easier to explain if it's going towards zero.

因此，如果它趋向于零，就更容易解释。

So an asymptote might be, okay, you start out, you have 10, then five, then two and a half.

所以渐近线可能是，好吧，你一开始有 10 个，然后是 5 个，然后是 2 个半。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Okay, so you're running in the opposite direction.

好吧，那你就往相反的方向跑。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It's still asymptote going from high to low.

仍然是从高到低的渐近线。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So asymptote can go from low to high, it can go from high to low.

所以渐近线可以从低到高，也可以从高到低。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Correct.

正确。

So I'm trying to explain it because it makes more sense when people go this way.

所以我试图解释它，因为当人们走这条路时，它更有意义。

You never reach zero-

你永远不会达到零——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

...

...

but it keeps getting incrementally closer.

但它越来越接近。

On the other end, I don't think protein synthesis ever maxes out.

另一方面，我认为蛋白质合成永远不会达到极限。

I just think the increment of increase becomes so small that practically there's no difference, and you wouldn't see a difference in outcome, right?

我只是认为增加的增量变得如此之小，几乎没有区别，你不会看到结果有什么不同，对吧？

And so I think that there's debate over is it 1.6 grams per kg, 2.4 grams per kg?

所以我认为存在争议的是每公斤 1.6 克还是 2.4 克？

And there's even been a meta-regression that showed up to 3.3 grams per kg had benefits.

甚至有一项元回归表明，每公斤 3.3 克的摄入量也有好处。

I think a lot of this is with protein synthesis, you're looking for small differences between small numbers.

我认为这很大程度上与蛋白质合成有关，你正在寻找小数字之间的微小差异。

It's not a very sensitive analysis, to be quite honest with you.

老实说，这不是一个非常敏感的分析。

And again, we would never be able to pick out those differences.

再说一次，我们永远无法找出这些差异。

And I'm thinking about, there was a study by Stu Phillips.

我在想，斯图·菲利普斯进行了一项研究。

If people don't know who Stu Phillips is, he's the best researcher going in protein metabolism right now.

如果人们不知道斯图·菲利普斯是谁，他是目前蛋白质代谢领域最好的研究员。

Well, one of the best, so I don't want to-

嗯，最好的之一，所以我不想-

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It's okay

没关系

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

...

...

tick anybody off.

勾掉任何人。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Sure.

当然。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

And he did a study probably 15 years ago where they gave people different levels of egg protein, and they looked at five, 10, 20, and 40 grams of egg protein.

他大约 15 年前做了一项研究，他们给人们提供了不同水平的鸡蛋蛋白，他们观察了 5 克、10 克、20 克和 40 克的鸡蛋蛋白。

And their conclusion was that 20 grams of egg protein maximized the protein synthesis response.

他们的结论是，20 克鸡蛋蛋白可以最大限度地提高蛋白质合成反应。

But that's because straight down the line, if there's a P value of more than 0.05, you can't say there's a difference, right?

但那是因为直接来说，如果 P 值超过 0.05，你就不能说有差异，对吧？

But if you looked at the absolute difference between 20 and 40 grams, I think it was like 11%.

但如果你看一下 20 克和 40 克之间的绝对差异，我认为大约是 11%。

And if you look at the graph, it almost looks like the start of an asymptote, right?

如果你看一下图表，它几乎看起来就像是渐近线的开始，对吧？

Now, this was one study, wasn't a huge subject number, but that's kind of where my personal thoughts land on it.

现在，这是一项研究，主题数量并不多，但这就是我个人的想法。

That kind of also support this, okay, 100 grams at a meal could still be utilized, is I'm not sure if there's a max out.

这也支持这一点，好吧，一顿饭100克仍然可以利用，我不确定是否有上限。

I think there's a practical max out where you get to a point where, hey, you're like slamming down 50 grams more of protein for 0.0001% more protein synthesis.

我认为有一个实际的最大值，当你到达某个点时，嘿，你就像猛然减少 50 克蛋白质，从而增加 0.0001% 的蛋白质合成。

It doesn't make sense.

这没有道理。

But yeah, I doubt we'll be able to pick those numbers out in actual scientific experiments.

但是，是的，我怀疑我们能否在实际的科学实验中找出这些数字。

And the other thing to keep in mind with this whole protein metabolism picture is we're really only talking about one side of this equation.

关于整个蛋白质代谢图要记住的另一件事是，我们实际上只是在谈论这个方程的一方面。

So net gain or loss of skeletal muscle mass is the balance between protein synthesis and protein degradation.

因此，骨骼肌质量的净增加或减少是蛋白质合成和蛋白质降解之间的平衡。

And most of us protein researchers just kind of stick our fingers in our ears and go, "La, la, la, la" when it comes to protein degradation because it's so incredibly hard to measure.

当谈到蛋白质降解时，我们大多数蛋白质研究人员只是把手指伸进耳朵里，“啦，啦，啦，啦”，因为它非常难以测量。

And so, yeah, when we start to put all that stuff together, it's like now this picture gets really complicated.

所以，是的，当我们开始将所有这些东西放在一起时，现在这张图片变得非常复杂。

So what I tell people when it comes to that kind of stuff is, "Listen, you could really get into the weeds on this stuff.

所以当谈到这类事情时，我告诉人们的是，“听着，你真的可以深入了解这些东西。

The big rocks are about a gram per pound of body weight if you want to really, for all intents and purposes, max out the anabolic response, you're going to be fine."

大石头的重量约为每磅体重一克，如果你真的想，出于所有意图和目的，最大化合成代谢反应，你会没事的。”

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

One gram per pound of body weight.

每磅体重一克。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Yeah.

是的。

I mean-

我的意思是——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Which is what Dr. Gabrielle Lyon also essentially recommended-

加布里埃尔·里昂博士也基本上推荐了这一点——

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Right

右

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

too.

也是。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

I'm probably like real sticklers might be like, "No, it's actually more like 0.7 or 0.8." And then it's, well, it's actually based on lean mass, which I agree with, but just for all intents and purposes, you could say your body weight, ideal body weight, whatever it is, that number is going to be very sufficient for maxing out muscle building for the majority of people.

我可能会像真正的坚持者一样，“不，实际上更像是 0.7 或 0.8。”然后，嗯，它实际上是基于去脂体重，我同意这一点，但出于所有意图和目的，你可以说你的体重，理想体重，无论是什么，这个数字对于大多数人来说都足以最大限度地增强肌肉。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And we should probably point out, not just for muscle building, unless you disagree, and feel free to, of course, not that I need to tell you that.

我们或许应该指出，不仅仅是为了肌肉锻炼，除非你不同意，并且可以随意，当然，我不需要告诉你这一点。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon, when she was here, made a really key point, which is that ingesting sufficient quality protein each day isn't just about building muscle, even for folks that don't want to build muscle, and perhaps even particularly for women who assume that building muscle can be a runaway process, that maybe they're going to build too much muscle.

加布里埃尔·里昂博士在这里提出了一个非常关键的观点，那就是每天摄入足够的优质蛋白质不仅仅是为了增强肌肉，即使对于那些不想增强肌肉的人来说，甚至可能尤其是对于那些认为增强肌肉可能是一个失控过程的女性来说，也许她们会长出太多的肌肉。

That's a false assumption, of course.

当然，这是一个错误的假设。

That ingesting one gram of protein per pound of body weight or ideal body weight ...

每磅体重或理想体重摄入一克蛋白质......

is going to be beneficial because it's going to improve muscle quality, one's own muscle quality, the health of the muscular tissue.

将会是有益的，因为它会改善肌肉质量、人自身的肌肉质量以及肌肉组织的健康。

And then she did an excellent job of relating the health of muscular tissue, skeletal muscle that is, to overall health and longevity.

然后，她出色地将肌肉组织、骨骼肌的健康与整体健康和寿命联系起来。

So I just raise that because I know that many people listening to this probably want to add a little bit of muscle here or there.

所以我提出这个问题是因为我知道很多人听这个可能想在这里或那里增加一点力量。

Some perhaps want to keep the muscle they've got and lose fat, and some, of course, want to add a lot of muscle.

有些人可能想保留现有的肌肉并减掉脂肪，当然还有一些人想增加大量肌肉。

But it sounds like the recommendation is always the same.

但听起来推荐总是一样的。

Since we need to eat, sooner or later, one gram of quality protein per pound of lean body mass or current body weight or desired body weight, that's going to be a good starting place.

由于我们迟早需要每磅去脂体重或当前体重或所需体重吃一克优质蛋白质，这将是一个很好的起点。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Yeah, for sure.

是的，当然。

And I think I would tend to agree with her.

我想我会倾向于同意她的观点。

Because when you eat protein, you're not just going to start laying down slabs of lean tissue just from eating protein.

因为当你吃蛋白质时，你不仅仅会因为吃蛋白质而开始产生瘦肉组织。

There has to be a stimulus, which is resistance training.

必须有一个刺激，那就是阻力训练。

Or some people would argue you could stretch really hard and get the same thing, which there may be some evidence of that.

或者有些人会说，你可以非常努力地伸展并得到同样的东西，这可能有一些证据表明这一点。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

With weights and lift them in between stretches?

使用重物并在伸展运动之间举起它们？

No, I'm just kidding.

不，我只是开玩笑。

Which is basically weightlifting.

这基本上是举重。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

There actually are studies now where they put people in really hardcore stretching for several minutes, and they actually see hypertrophy with it.

实际上现在有研究让人们进行几分钟的真正的核心拉伸，他们实际上看到了肌肉肥大。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Okay.

好的。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Yeah, very interesting.

是的，非常有趣。

We could talk about those if you wanted, but the point is, either way it's mechanical tension, right?

如果你愿意的话我们可以讨论这些，但重点是，无论哪种方式都是机械张力，对吧？

So that's the stimulus to build muscle, to lay down lean tissue.

所以这就是刺激肌肉生长、减少瘦肉组织的因素。

But the process of remodeling is probably beneficial for multiple reasons.

但由于多种原因，重塑过程可能是有益的。

So when you eat protein, like we said, synthesis goes up, degradation goes up.

所以当你吃蛋白质时，就像我们说的，合成会增加，降解也会增加。

Because you're stimulating that process.

因为你正在刺激这个过程。

You're stimulating protein turnover.

你正在刺激蛋白质周转。

One that's relatively energetically expensive, all things being equal, so that's where the thermic effect of protein comes from.

在所有条件相同的情况下，能量相对昂贵，因此这就是蛋白质热效应的来源。

Because people will say, "Well, it's the urea cycle and this and that." Most of those ATPs you get back in different phases of that cycle.

因为人们会说，“嗯，这是尿素循环等等。”大多数 ATP 是您在该周期的不同阶段获得的。

Really, in my opinion, the thermic effect of protein is due to that activation of this futile cycle of you're building more protein, but then you're also breaking down more protein.

事实上，在我看来，蛋白质的热效应是由于激活了这个徒劳的循环，即你正在构建更多的蛋白质，但随后你也分解了更多的蛋白质。

And so part of that is you are remodeling.

所以其中一部分是你正在重塑。

You are making sure that that protein is higher quality in that tissue by continuously breaking it down and building it back up.

通过不断分解和重建蛋白质，您可以确保该组织中的蛋白质具有更高的质量。

And so I would probably agree with that.

所以我可能会同意这一点。

And then again, even if you're in a resistance training program where you're not really building much more muscle anymore, the process of remodeling is probably good for you.

话又说回来，即使你参加的阻力训练计划中你并没有真正增加更多的肌肉，重塑的过程也可能对你有好处。

And I would just say try to ally some of these concerns from people who are concerned about gaining too much muscle.

我只想说，尝试将那些担心获得过多肌肉的人的一些担忧结合起来。

So I have been lifting really hard consistently for 25 years.

所以 25 年来我一直坚持努力举重。

I am very comfortable saying I train harder than almost anybody else you can possibly imagine.

我可以很轻松地说，我的训练比你能想象到的几乎任何人都更加刻苦。

And anybody who has trained around me will back that up.

任何在我周围接受过训练的人都会支持这一点。

Back me up in the comments.

在评论中支持我。

I train very hard.

我训练非常刻苦。

And in a shirt, I look like an athletic guy who lifts.

穿着衬衫，我看起来就像一个举重的运动员。

I don't look like a monster.

我看起来不像怪物。

You might see pictures of me when I was at a bodybuilding show and very, very lean, and that looks over the top.

你可能会看到我参加健美表演时的照片，我非常非常瘦，看起来有点过头了。

But for the most part, I just look kind of athletic.

但在大多数情况下，我看起来只是运动型的。

And I spent my entire adult life trying to get too big, right?

我整个成年生活都在努力变得更大，对吗？

So for most people, unless you're on performance-enhancing drugs or you just have incredible genetics, that's not going to happen.

所以对于大多数人来说，除非你服用提高成绩的药物或者你有令人难以置信的基因，否则这种情况是不会发生的。

And if it starts to happen, just back off on your lifting.

如果这种情况开始发生，就停止举重。

Easy fix.

轻松修复。

So yeah, I think most people's concern with that is a little bit misplaced.

所以，是的，我认为大多数人对此的担忧有点错误。

And the other thing I'll tell people is, hey, some of these fitness, especially for women, a lot of these fitness models you follow, they show you certain workouts they do.

我要告诉人们的另一件事是，嘿，其中一些健身，特别是对于女性来说，你遵循的很多健身模型，他们都会向你展示他们所做的某些锻炼。

They built that physique by lifting weights, right?

他们通过举重来塑造体格，对吗？

And you're thinking that's a toned physique.

你认为这是健美的体格。

No, that person is actually pretty muscular, right?

不对，那个人其实肌肉很发达吧？

And so again, especially for women, there are exceptions.

再说一次，特别是对于女性来说，也有例外。

Some women have very great genetics for building muscle.

有些女性具有非常强健肌肉的基因。

They usually wind up in track and field, that sort of thing.

他们通常会参加田径比赛之类的比赛。

But it's very hard to get too muscular for a woman.

但对于女性来说，想要变得肌肉太发达是非常困难的。

And what I'll say is typically muscle looks good and fat is what makes you kind of look bulky.

我要说的是，通常肌肉看起来很好，而脂肪会让你看起来笨重。

So again, I don't want to paint it with too broad of a brush, but I would say that you don't really have too much to worry about when it comes to getting too muscular.

再说一次，我不想用太宽泛的画笔来描绘它，但我想说，当谈到变得肌肉过于发达时，你真的不必太担心。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I'd like to take a brief break to thank one of our sponsors, LMNT.

我想短暂休息一下，以感谢我们的赞助商之一 LMNT。

LMNT is an electrolyte drink that has everything you need and nothing you don't.

LMNT 是一种电解质饮料，拥有您需要的一切，没有您不需要的东西。

That means the electrolytes, sodium, magnesium, and potassium in the correct ratios, but no sugar.

这意味着电解质、钠、镁和钾的比例正确，但没有糖。

Now, I and others on the podcast have talked a lot about the critical importance of hydration for proper brain and bodily function.

现在，我和播客上的其他人已经谈论了很多关于水合作用对于大脑和身体正常功能的至关重要性。

Research shows that even a slight degree of dehydration can really diminish cognitive and physical performance.

研究表明，即使是轻微程度的脱水也会确实降低认知和身体表现。

It's also important that you get adequate electrolytes in order for your body and brain to function at their best.

获得足够的电解质也很重要，这样您的身体和大脑才能发挥最佳功能。

The electrolytes, sodium, magnesium, and potassium, are critical for the functioning of all the cells in your body, especially your neurons or nerve cells.

电解质（钠、镁和钾）对于体内所有细胞（尤其是神经元或神经细胞）的功能至关重要。

To make sure that I'm getting proper amounts of hydration and electrolytes, I dissolve one packet of LMNT in about 16 to 32 ounces of water when I wake up in the morning, and I drink that basically first thing in the morning.

为了确保我获得适量的水合作用和电解质，当我早上醒来时，我将一包 LMNT 溶解在大约 16 至 32 盎司的水中，并且我基本上早上第一件事就是喝它。

I also drink LMNT dissolved in water during any kind of physical exercise I'm doing, especially on hot days if I'm sweating a lot and losing water and electrolytes.

我还会在进行任何体育锻炼时饮用溶解在水中的 LMNT，尤其是在炎热的天气里，如果我大量出汗并失去水分和电解质。

If you'd like to try LMNT, you can go to drinklmnt.com/huberman, spelled drinklmnt.com/huberman, to claim a free LMNT sample pack with the purchase of any LMNT drink mix.

如果您想尝试 LMNT，可以访问 Drinklmnt.com/huberman（拼写为 Drinklmnt.com/huberman），购买任何 LMNT 混合饮料即可领取免费 LMNT 样品包。

Again, that's drinklmnt.com/huberman to claim a free sample pack.

再次强调，请访问 Drinklmnt.com/huberman 索取免费样品包。

Since we're sort of in this realm of protein, maybe we build out from there, because a lot of questions related to something akin to the following.

由于我们处于蛋白质的这个领域，也许我们从那里开始构建，因为很多问题都与类似于以下内容的问题有关。

So okay, so somebody strives to get one gram of quality protein per pound of body weight per day.

好吧，所以有人努力每天每磅体重获取一克优质蛋白质。

And I realize that Whether somebody follows a pseudo intermittent fasting thing where their first meal is around 11:00 and they finish up eating around 8:00 PM, or a more traditional eating schedule really is just the addition of one more meal in the morning.

我意识到，无论有人遵循伪间歇性禁食（第一顿饭在 11:00 左右，晚上 8:00 左右吃完），还是更传统的饮食计划，实际上只是在早上多吃一顿饭。

It's like whether or not you eat breakfast.

就像你是否吃早餐一样。

And of course, some people shift it the other way.

当然，有些人会以另一种方式改变它。

They start with breakfast and they don't eat dinner.

他们从早餐开始，不吃晚餐。

But I would argue that if you have kids or a social life of any kind, most people can deal with sitting across the table with someone just having a cup of coffee for breakfast, but it's sort of awkward.

但我认为，如果你有孩子或有任何形式的社交生活，大多数人都可以应付坐在桌子对面与某人一起喝杯咖啡当早餐，但这有点尴尬。

You limit yourself a lot in life if you-

如果你在生活中限制了自己——

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

if you can't eat dinner with other people.

如果你不能和其他人一起吃晚饭。

I don't know.

我不知道。

At least it-

至少它——

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

And that's again, where the rubber meets the road with what is practically doable, because there's been some of these circadian rhythm studies that suggest, well, maybe early time restricted feeding is better than late time restricted feeding.

这又是一个实际可行的问题，因为一些昼夜节律研究表明，也许早期限制喂养比晚期限制喂养更好。

The more high quality, more rigorously controlled, randomized control trials that are coming out now seems to show that it doesn't really make a big difference.

现在出现的质量更高、控制更严格的随机对照试验似乎表明，它并没有真正产生很大的影响。

And some of the, again, the measurements you use matter, right?

再说一遍，您使用的一些测量很重要，对吗？

So there was actually a very recent study where they looked at 12 weeks.

事实上最近有一项研究，他们观察了 12 周。

They provided all the food to participants equal in protein, calories, the whole deal.

他们为参与者提供了蛋白质、卡路里含量相同的所有食物。

The only difference was one group was eating 80% of their calories before 1:00 PM and they had a eight-hour feeding window in total.

唯一的区别是，一组在下午 1:00 之前摄入了 80% 的卡路里，并且总共有 8 小时的进食窗口。

The other group had a 12-hour feeding window and were eating over 50% of their calories after 5:00 PM, I want to say.

我想说，另一组有 12 小时的进食窗口，并且在下午 5:00 后摄入了超过 50% 的卡路里。

And so really based on some of the chrononutrition stuff we've seen from some of the lesser well-controlled trials, they were expecting to see differences in glucose metabolism and whatnot, and they just didn't really see a difference in anything.

因此，实际上基于我们从一些控制较差的试验中看到的一些计时营养物质，他们期望看到葡萄糖代谢等方面的差异，但他们只是没有真正看到任何差异。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Hmm.

嗯。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

I think the only thing they saw a little bit of a difference was in fasting blood glucose.

我认为他们唯一看到的一点差异是空腹血糖。

And here's what I tell people.

这就是我告诉人们的。

When you see a difference in fasting blood glucose, but not HbA1c, you're looking at a transient difference.

当您发现空腹血糖存在差异但 HbA1c 没有差异时，您看到的是暂时性差异。

And what I mean by that is HbA1c is such a great measurement because it's an area on hemoglobin that can be glycosylated.

我的意思是 HbA1c 是一个很好的测量值，因为它是血红蛋白上可以糖基化的区域。

And so that is very dependent on what is your overall concentration of glucose in the blood over a 24-hour period of time, because it's exposed the entire time it's in your bloodstream.

因此，这很大程度上取决于 24 小时内血液中葡萄糖的总体浓度，因为它在您的血液中的整个时间都暴露在外。

So whether you're getting glucose spikes at meals, or you have higher fasting blood glucose, it's going to be very reflective of the overall 24-hour area under the curve, right?

因此，无论您是在进餐时出现血糖峰值，还是空腹血糖较高，它都会很好地反映整个 24 小时曲线下的面积，对吗？

So why do some of these studies see a little bit better improvement in lowering fasting blood glucose, whereas HbA1c doesn't show up?

那么为什么其中一些研究在降低空腹血糖方面看到了一点点改善，而 HbA1c 却没有出现呢？

Well, think about it.

好吧，想想看。

If somebody's early time restricted feeding and they finish most of their food intake before 1:00 PM, they have an extra six, seven, eight hours that they're not hardly eating anything.

如果某人的早期进食时间受到限制，并且他们在下午 1:00 之前吃完大部分食物，那么他们还有额外的六、七、八小时几乎不吃任何东西。

It doesn't surprise me that the next morning, because they've technically fasted for longer, you have a lower blood glucose.

第二天早上，因为从技术上讲，他们禁食的时间更长，所以你的血糖较低，这并不令我感到惊讶。

Now, I can't really back this up straight up-

现在，我真的无法直接支持这一点-

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

No, it makes sense though

不，但这是有道理的

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

...

...

because nobody's ever measured it, but that I think is a logical explanation why you see some of this stuff.

因为没有人测量过它，但我认为这是一个合乎逻辑的解释为什么你会看到这些东西。

And that's why I tell people, the measurement you take really matters.

这就是为什么我告诉人们，你所进行的测量非常重要。

I think fasting blood glucose is a useful measurement, but I put much more value on something like HOMA-IR, euglycemic clamp, or HbA1c.

我认为空腹血糖是一种有用的测量方法，但我更看重 HOMA-IR、正常血糖钳或 HbA1c 等指标。

So anyways, I think the early versus late time restricted kind of doesn't matter too much.

所以无论如何，我认为早期与晚期的时间限制并不太重要。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Great.

太棒了。

You answered a future question right there.

您就在那里回答了未来的问题。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

See, I've-

看，我已经-

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You're telepathic

你有心灵感应

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Uh-huh.

嗯嗯。

That's what you didn't know about him.

那是你不了解他的事。

So the scenario here is whether or not meals are distributed evenly through the awake day or stacked a little bit more toward the morning or stacked a little bit more toward the evening.

因此，这里的情况是，膳食是否在清醒的一天中均匀分配，或者在早上多一点，还是在晚上多一点。

If somebody gets that one gram of quality protein per pound of body weight, then they need to make up the rest of their calories with other stuff.

如果有人每磅体重获得一克优质蛋白质，那么他们就需要用其他东西来补充剩余的卡路里。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And we have, broadly speaking, starches, fibrous fruits and vegetables, starches, and of course, fats.

从广义上讲，我们有淀粉、纤维状水果和蔬菜、淀粉，当然还有脂肪。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And weight gain and weight loss, I think we both would agree, or weight maintenance, is going to largely be dictated at this point by whether or not you consume more calories than you burn or not.

我想我们都同意，体重增加和减轻，或者体重维持，在这一点上很大程度上取决于你消耗的卡路里是否多于燃烧的卡路里。

So assuming somebody's getting that one gram of quality protein per pound of body weight, is there any data that support or do you believe just by your own experience that there's some value in stacking the starchy carbohydrates toward the earlier part of the day versus the later part of the day?

因此，假设某人每磅体重摄入一克优质蛋白质，是否有任何数据支持或者您是否相信仅根据您自己的经验，在一天的早些时候和一天的晚些时候积累淀粉类碳水化合物有一定的价值？

And this has been an ongoing debate.

这一直是一个持续的争论。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I, for instance, like a nearly pure protein and fat meal for the first meal, plus maybe a salad-

例如，我喜欢第一顿饭几乎是纯蛋白质和脂肪，再加上一份沙拉——

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

some fibrous carbohydrates.

一些纤维状碳水化合物。

And then as I get towards evening, I like more starches and I actually taper off the protein.

到了晚上，我喜欢吃更多的淀粉，实际上我逐渐减少了蛋白质的摄入。

I find personally that matches what I need to do with my brain.

我个人发现这符合我需要用我的大脑做的事情。

I'm more alert when I'm drinking caffeine and hydrating on a backdrop of slightly lowered carbohydrates.

当我在碳水化合物稍微降低的情况下喝咖啡因和补充水分时，我会更加警觉。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But then as I get towards evening, taper off the caffeine, of course, for me, because I want to sleep well, start ingesting some more starches.

但当我临近晚上时，当然，对我来说，逐渐减少咖啡因的摄入，因为我想睡得好，开始摄入更多的淀粉。

It's not starch heavy, but I sleep like a baby.

淀粉含量不高，但我睡得像婴儿一样。

But everyone would tell me, and does tell me, eating starches late in the day is going to make me fat.

但每个人都会告诉我，并且确实告诉我，在一天晚些时候吃淀粉会让我发胖。

Eating starches late in the day is going to do all sorts of terrible things.

在一天的晚些时候吃淀粉类食物会造成各种可怕的后果。

I find the exact opposite for me.

我发现我的情况恰恰相反。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So is there any real evidence that where one places their starches throughout the day matters?

那么有没有真正的证据表明人们一天中将淀粉放在哪里很重要呢？

And let's just forget resistance training for the moment-

让我们暂时忘记阻力训练吧——

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

because there is this post-training window where if I train first thing in the morning, I will eat starches at that time.

因为训练后有一个窗口期，如果我早上第一件事就是训练，那么我会在那个时候吃淀粉类食物。

But let's just remove resistance training for the moment.

但我们暂时取消阻力训练。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

So again, we're rubber meets the road in practicality versus what hard line research says.

再说一遍，我们的实用性与强硬的研究所说的不同。

So I am not real convinced at all that it really matters when you eat your carbohydrate intake.

所以我根本不相信碳水化合物的摄入量真的很重要。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Thank you.

谢谢你。

Thank you.

谢谢。

My goodness.

天哪。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

I think-

我认为——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I knew I brought you here today for a reason.

我知道我今天带你来这里是有原因的。

No, I brought you here for many reasons, but-

不，我带你来这里有很多原因，但是——

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

He's like, "My bias has been validated.

他说：“我的偏见得到了证实。

I can leave now." So I really try to get people focused on the stuff that matters the most, right?

我现在可以走了。”所以我真的努力让人们专注于最重要的事情，对吧？

So if we're worried about carbohydrate timing, even if there are differences, we are zoomed way in on the blade of grass, right?

因此，如果我们担心碳水化合物的时间，即使存在差异，我们也会放大草叶，对吧？

We're not zooming out all the way.

我们并没有一直缩小。

And I think, hey, if somebody likes to eat more carbohydrate in the morning and that fits their lifestyle and that is easy for them to continue to do, then I would say do that.

我想，嘿，如果有人喜欢在早上吃更多的碳水化合物，这符合他们的生活方式，而且他们很容易继续这样做，那么我会说这样做。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And could I add, in terms of not focusing on a blade of grass, but something that I consider a major lever, if eating fewer carbohydrates in the afternoon and evening doesn't impede your sleep, then you're okay.

我能否补充一点，就不要关注一片草叶而言，而是我认为是一个主要杠杆的事情，如果下午和晚上少吃碳水化合物不会妨碍你的睡眠，那么你就没事了。

But I would argue if anything is interfering with your sleep on a consistent basis, you've got a serious problem.

但我认为，如果有什么东西持续干扰你的睡眠，那么你就有了一个严重的问题。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Yeah.

是的。

So there are no solutions, only trade-offs, right?

所以没有解决方案，只有权衡，对吗？

And when it comes to carbohydrate intake, you'll hear people say...

当谈到碳水化合物的摄入量时，你会听到人们说……

The data's all over the place, okay, in terms of timing and how people feel.

就时间和人们的感受而言，数据无处不在。

Some people say, "Well, I feel sleepy after I have carbs." Some people have, "I feel great after I have carbs.

有些人说：“嗯，吃了碳水化合物后我感到困倦。”有些人会说，“摄入碳水化合物后我感觉很好。

I'm ready to go lift.

我准备好去电梯了。

I have a big carb meal before I go lift." It seems to be all over the map.

在我去举重之前，我会吃一顿丰盛的碳水化合物餐。”地图上似乎到处都是。

Now, here's the thing what I'll tell people, because when people ask me how I eat, people have wanted me to do a full day of eating video, and I've kind of put it off for a while because I'm like, so much of the stuff I do, I'm not going to be able to give you guys a citation for.

现在，这就是我要告诉人们的事情，因为当人们问我吃得怎么样时，人们希望我做一整天的饮食视频，而我有点推迟了一段时间，因为我想，我做的很多事情，我无法给你们一个引用。

And I know you're going to want it.

我知道你会想要它。

And some of the stuff I do because I just like doing it that way, right?

我做一些事情是因为我喜欢那样做，对吧？

I grew up in the era of bodybuilding magazines where they said, "You got to have a big carbohydrate intake and a big meal before you go train and a big meal after you train." So guess what I did?

我在健美杂志的时代长大，他们说：“你必须在训练前摄入大量碳水化合物，并在训练后吃一顿大餐。”那么你猜我做了什么？

I got in a habit of eating like that, and it still sticks to this day.

我养成了这样的饮食习惯，直到今天仍然如此。

I don't try to tell people it's better doing it that way.

我不会试图告诉人们这样做更好。

Plenty of people have told me, "Hey, I don't feel good with a lot in my stomach when I go train." Or, "If I have a carb-heavy meal in the morning, I feel tired." The data doesn't really support that in terms of on an average response, but if you know that you feel that way, then by all means avoid, right?

很多人告诉我，“嘿，当我去训练时，我的胃里有很多东西，我感觉不舒服。”或者，“如果我早上吃了一顿富含碳水化合物的饭菜，我就会感到疲倦。”就平均反应而言，数据并不能真正支持这一点，但如果你知道自己有这种感觉，那么一定要避免，对吧？

I remember one time I...

我记得有一次我...

So I used to go to a massage therapist in Tampa who would do cupping, and there's really no data to back up the efficacy of cupping on-

所以我曾经去找过坦帕的一位按摩治疗师，他会做拔罐，但确实没有数据支持拔罐的功效-

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Is that right?

是这样吗？

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Not much.

不多。

But she did it.

但她做到了。

I liked the way it felt.

我喜欢这种感觉。

And I'm like, "Okay.

我想，“好吧。

Whatever." So I post a picture of me flexing one time, and there's the cup marks all over, and everybody's going crazy like, "How could you do this?" I'm like, "Hey, hey, hey, hey.

不管怎样。”所以我贴了一张我有一次弯曲的照片，到处都是杯子痕迹，每个人都疯狂地说，“你怎么能这样做？”我就像，“嘿，嘿，嘿，嘿。

Wait a second.

等一下。

I never said this does this, and I never made any claims about it.

我从来没有说过这是这样做的，我也从未对此做出过任何声明。

She does it, and I like the way it feels.

她做到了，我喜欢这种感觉。

I'm not saying it does anything." Actually, one of the things about being a scientist is now I'm impossible to placebo, which is really annoying, because I would love to be able to placebo myself a little bit more.

我并不是说它有任何作用。”事实上，作为一名科学家，我现在不可能接受安慰剂，这真的很烦人，因为我希望能够给自己多一点安慰剂。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Because placebo effect is powerful.

因为安慰剂效应很强大。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

It's powerful, and it's one of the...

它很强大，而且是其中之一...

I was telling you earlier before we started filming, I'm like, it's one of the reasons I just don't believe a lot of stuff, because I know how powerful the power of belief is.

在我们开始拍摄之前我就告诉过你，我想，这是我不相信很多东西的原因之一，因为我知道信仰的力量有多么强大。

You had Sean Mackey on here.

肖恩·麦基也在场。

Your beliefs about pain change your pain, like actually change how much pain you get.

你对疼痛的信念会改变你的疼痛，就像实际上改变你所承受的疼痛程度一样。

It changes your pain experience.

它会改变您的疼痛体验。

So one of the things I've become big on recently is, hey, what happens in the mind affects the body, and what happens in the body affects the mind.

所以我最近关注的一件事是，嘿，头脑中发生的事情会影响身体，而身体中发生的事情也会影响头脑。

So just because I don't have a randomized control trial to support something, if we know the RCTs don't say it's worse, right, then you do whatever you like, right?

因此，仅仅因为我没有随机对照试验来支持某件事，如果我们知道随机对照试验并没有说情况更糟，对吧，那么你就可以做任何你喜欢的事情，对吧？

And I think a lot of people get bent out of shape when I say, "Well, when they control the variables that need to be controlled, there's no difference between intermittent fasting or just regular old calorie restriction, or there's no difference between low-fat diets and high-fat diets." What people hear is, "Low carb sucks.

我认为当我说“好吧，当他们控制了需要控制的变量时，间歇性禁食或只是定期限制卡路里摄入量之间没有区别，或者低脂饮食和高脂饮食之间没有区别”时，我认为很多人都会变形。人们听到的是，“低碳水化合物很糟糕。

Intermittent fasting sucks.

间歇性禁食很糟糕。

He said they don't work." No, no, no. This is great.

他说它们不起作用。”不，不，不。这太棒了。

This is great news for everybody.

这对每个人来说都是个好消息。

It means you have all the tools at your disposal, and you get to pick the one that fits in your lifestyle best.

这意味着您拥有所有可供使用的工具，并且您可以选择最适合您生活方式的工具。

Because that is what makes the difference, is what your overall lifestyle looks like.

因为这就是与众不同的地方，那就是你的整体生活方式。

And we have way too many people worrying about the minutia who just don't even exercise on a consistent basis, or they don't sleep well on a consistent basis, or they don't manage their psychological stress well.

我们有太多的人担心细节，他们甚至没有持续锻炼，或者他们没有持续良好的睡眠，或者他们不能很好地管理自己的心理压力。

Or they try to be perfect with their nutrition, then they fall off the deep end.

或者他们试图在营养上做到完美，然后却陷入了困境。

And what I'm saying is, no, be imperfect, but be consistent with what you do, right?

我想说的是，不，要不完美，但要与你所做的事情保持一致，对吗？

And so for you, obviously, carbs at night have not made you fat.

因此，对于你来说，显然，晚上的碳水化合物不会让你发胖。

I have eyeballs, so we can just dispel that myth right now.

我有眼睛，所以我们现在就可以消除这个神话。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

I would say eating the way I eat now, I'm leaner at 49 even than I was 10 years ago or 10 years before that.

我想说，按照我现在的饮食方式，我 49 岁时甚至比 10 年前或 10 年前还要瘦。

I was pretty lean then.

那时我还蛮瘦的。

And I don't put a ton of attention to tracking calories.

而且我并没有过多关注跟踪卡路里。

Although, and I want to be very, very clear, I was not paid to say this.

不过，我想非常非常明确地讲，我并不是拿钱来说这些的。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I've purchased and use Layne's Carbon app.

我已购买并使用 Layne 的 Carbon 应用程序。

He happens to be wearing a shirt that says Carbon today.

他今天恰好穿着一件印有“碳”字样的衬衫。

But I've talked about this before on other-

但我之前在其他网站上也谈过这个——

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Yep

是的

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

podcasts and social media, and it's absolutely true that there's no endorsement relationship.

播客和社交媒体，绝对没有代言关系。

But I love the app because that was really the first time probably since college, because I started lifting when I was 16.

但我喜欢这个应用程序，因为这可能是大学以来的第一次，因为我在 16 岁的时候就开始举重了。

Running and lifting has always been my thing since I was 16.

从 16 岁起，跑步和举重就一直是我的爱好。

But since college that I used a tool, in this case, Carbon, to basically track what I'm eating.

但自从上大学以来，我使用了一个工具（在本例中为 Carbon）来基本上跟踪我吃的东西。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Exactly what I'm eating.

正是我正在吃的东西。

And what I like about it is that I can just click on different boxes of things within the app, and really it makes it very easy to say, "Oh, I ate this thing, white rice from this package." And it generally knows products, it knows brands, and it did a really good job of letting me check in and just see how many calories I was consuming, how much protein, how much fat, and from what sources.

我喜欢它的一点是，我只需点击应用程序中不同的东西框，就可以很容易地说，“哦，我吃了这个东西，这个包装里的白米。”它通常了解产品、品牌，而且它做得非常好，让我可以查看并查看我消耗了多少卡路里、多少蛋白质、多少脂肪以及来源。

But one of the major takeaways that at least I got from Carbon was that you can arrange your diet any number of different ways.

但至少我从 Carbon 中得到的主要收获之一是，你可以通过多种不同的方式来安排你的饮食。

In fact, it has a really nice little slider where you can put in you want to eat more carbohydrates and less protein even.

事实上，它有一个非常漂亮的小滑块，您可以在其中输入您想要吃更多的碳水化合物和更少的蛋白质。

Or you want to have a vegetarian diet, which I don't.

或者你想吃素食，但我不想。

I'm an omnivore.

我是杂食动物。

I'm an omnivore.

我是杂食动物。

My dad's Argentine.

我爸爸是阿根廷人。

I like meat.

我喜欢肉。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I like meat.

我喜欢肉。

In fact, I don't even really like fish that much or chicken.

事实上，我什至不太喜欢鱼或鸡肉。

I like eating meat and eggs.

我喜欢吃肉和鸡蛋。

Those are my preferred sources.

这些是我的首选来源。

And whey protein.

还有乳清蛋白。

Okay, fine.

好吧，好吧。

But you can arrange things within the context of different types of diets.

但您可以根据不同类型的饮食进行安排。

And I think there's real value to tracking precisely what one eats ...

我认为精确追踪一个人吃的东西是真正有价值的……

for even short periods of time.

即使是很短的时间。

And then I confess, I stopped using the app for a bit, then I went back to it.

然后我承认，我停止使用该应用程序了一段时间，然后又重新使用它。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Yep.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And not because things went adrift.

并不是因为事情失控了。

I think some people really need that consistent checking.

我认为有些人确实需要持续的检查。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Sure.

当然。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Other people need to perhaps just kind of eyeball it for themselves.

其他人也许需要亲自观察一下。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But for me, I've found that knowing exactly what I'm doing for some period of time allows me to explore things in a way that's really effective.

但对我来说，我发现准确地知道自己在一段时间内在做什么可以让我以一种真正有效的方式探索事物。

And so I just want to give a nod to Carbon.

所以我只想向 Carbon 致敬。

And I don't do product endorsements on this podcast.

我不会在这个播客上做产品代言。

I do ad reads and that kind of thing for things I love, but I say that because I think it lands squarely in the context of what we're talking about, which is that I know what works for me.

我为我喜欢的事情做广告阅读和类似的事情，但我这么说是因为我认为它完全符合我们正在谈论的内容，也就是说我知道什么对我有用。

I also know that some people really love a giant carb meal in the morning.

我还知道有些人真的很喜欢早上吃一顿丰盛的碳水化合物餐。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Some people don't like meat.

有些人不喜欢吃肉。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And I think what's so beautiful about the way that you've been talking about science and nutrition in particular over the last few years and still here now, is that you don't really seem to care whether or not people are vegan, vegetarian, omnivore, or even carnivore, dare I say.

我认为，你一直在谈论科学和营养的方式，特别是在过去几年，现在仍然如此，其美妙之处在于，你似乎并不真正关心人们是否是纯素食者、素食者、杂食动物，甚至是肉食动物，我敢说。

It's just a matter of how people are couching the advice.

这只是人们如何提出建议的问题。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

For sure.

当然。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And the reason I keep coming back to this is that I really think that you, this discussion, but you in particular, are best poised in this whole field of public-facing health nutrition advice to really change the way that the messaging occurs and the way that people hear that messaging.

我不断回到这个问题的原因是，我真的认为你，这次讨论，特别是你，在面向公众的健康营养建议的整个领域中最有能力真正改变信息传递的方式以及人们听到信息的方式。

And I say that with the utmost respect.

我怀着最大的敬意这么说。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

That means a lot to me.

这对我来说意义重大。

Thank you.

谢谢。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Because most people are not going to go read the meta-analyses.

因为大多数人不会去阅读荟萃分析。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And most people don't know how to parse data.

大多数人不知道如何解析数据。

But I think that paying attention to the words that are spoken right before the advice should be, we need to come up with something that's like the Norton method.

但我认为，要注意建议之前所说的话，我们需要想出类似诺顿方法的东西。

Pay attention to the words provided right before the advice.

请注意建议之前提供的词语。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Yeah.

是的。

I think how you say it makes all the difference, right?

我认为你所说的一切都会有所不同，对吗？

And even take somebody I've had conflict on social media with, which would be Paul Saldino.

甚至以我在社交媒体上与我发生过冲突的人为例，他就是保罗·萨尔迪诺（Paul Saldino）。

When he would say something like, "Well, I cut vegetables out of my diet, and I felt like my eczema got better." Okay.

当他会说这样的话时，“好吧，我从饮食中去掉了蔬菜，我感觉我的湿疹好多了。”好的。

That's your experience.

这就是你的经历。

On average, that's definitely not reflected in the research.

平均而言，这绝对没有反映在研究中。

But hey, if you know that you did this thing and you felt better, that's fine, but how we're overgeneralizing to the population is the problem, right?

但是，嘿，如果你知道你做了这件事并且你感觉好多了，那很好，但我们对大众的过度概括才是问题所在，对吗？

And so I think, again, I'll say, hey, I calorie cycle a little bit, which again, you can do using the app, right?

所以我想，我会再说一遍，嘿，我有点卡路里循环，你可以使用该应用程序来做到这一点，对吗？

You can change your days and whatnot, give you more calories some days, more calories other days.

你可以改变你的日子等等，有些日子给你更多的卡路里，其他日子给你更多的卡路里。

And I showed a screenshot of it one time and somebody goes, "So why do you do it like that?

有一次我展示了它的屏幕截图，有人问：“那你为什么要这样做呢？

Is that because it's better this way for muscle growth and fat loss?" And I go, "No, because I had a get-together with friends on Saturday, and I knew I was going to have a couple beers, and I knew that there was going to be some fatty food, so I put 4,000 calories on that day and less the rest of the week." And they're like, "That's it?

是因为这样更有利于增肌和减脂吗？”我说，“不，因为周六我和朋友聚会，我知道我要喝几瓶啤酒，而且我知道会有一些脂肪食物，所以我那天摄入了 4,000 卡路里热量，而本周其余时间则摄入较少热量。”他们就像，“就这样？

That's your reasoning?" Yeah.

这就是你的道理？”是的。

Compliance is the biggest one.

合规是最大的一环。

I will tell people, I'm like, and we talked about this earlier, I've never used performance-enhancing drugs.

我会告诉人们，我想，我们之前讨论过这一点，我从未使用过提高成绩的药物。

Even when prohormones were legal, I didn't use them.

即使激素原合法，我也没有使用它们。

I've never done-

我从来没有做过-

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And you're not on TRT.

而且你没有参加 TRT。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Not on TRT.

不在 TRT 上。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

We need to distinguish this.

我们需要区分这一点。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Because people nowadays put TRT, well, as long as it's keeping someone's testosterone in the normal reference range, which is somewhere between 300 and 1,200 nanograms per deciliter-

因为现在人们采用 TRT，只要它能让某人的睾酮保持在正常参考范围内，即每分升 300 到 1,200 纳克之间 -

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Right

右

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

then they're like, they're not a...

然后他们就像，他们不是......

You've never injected a synthetic version of a hormone?

您从未注射过合成激素？

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

No. And my testosterone, even from age 18 when the first time I had it measured up until even a year ago, the lowest it's been, I think, has been like 750, and the highest it's been was like 1,050.

不。我的睾酮水平，从 18 岁第一次测量到一年前，我认为最低水平约为 750，最高水平约为 1,050。

And so I obviously don't need it, right?

所以我显然不需要它，对吗？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah, you don't need it.

是的，你不需要它。

You're high normal.

你的水平很高很正常。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

So the reason that I've been able to have so much success, and I get the skepticism, I really do.

因此，我之所以能够取得如此大的成功，并且受到怀疑，我确实如此。

So many people say, I mean, look at how many people are out beating their chest saying they're drug-free, and then it comes out that they weren't, right?

很多人说，我的意思是，看看有多少人拍着胸脯说自己没有吸毒，但结果却证明他们没有吸毒，对吗？

But I have been brutally consistent for 25 years.

但 25 年来我一直坚持不懈。

In 25 years, the longest I ever took off of resistance training was seven days, and it was after I won world championships in 2022 for M1 93 kilo.

25年来，我停止阻力训练的最长时间是7天，那是在我赢得2022年M1 93公斤级世界冠军之后。

So I've been able to be really consistent with my training.

所以我能够真正坚持我的训练。

And I always give this comparison of, and I think it just really highlights how powerful consistency is, and it relates back to my favorite quote I've ever heard.

我总是给出这样的比较，我认为这确实凸显了一致性的强大之处，并且它与我听过的我最喜欢的名言有关。

"The magic you're looking for is in the work you keep attempting to avoid." The work is the hack.

“你所寻找的魔力就在你一直试图避免的工作中。”这项工作就是黑客。

And I liked what our friend Peter Attia said this when he was talking about biohacks and why he didn't like the term biohacks.

我喜欢我们的朋友彼得·阿提亚（Peter Attia）在谈论生物黑客时所说的话以及为什么他不喜欢生物黑客这个词。

He said, "I don't like that it occupies so much mind space." Right?

他说：“我不喜欢它占据了太多的思维空间。”正确的？

You get people really focused on the minutia, which is fine if they're already doing the big stuff.

你会让人们真正关注细节，如果他们已经在做大事了，那就很好。

If they want to kind of level up a little bit, cool.

如果他们想提升一点水平，那就太好了。

For me, minutia is where I live because the difference between me winning a powerlifting meet and me losing world championships is 1%, right?

对我来说，细节就是我生活的地方，因为我赢得举重比赛和失去世界冠军之间的差异是 1%，对吗？

But for most people, we just got to get inconsistent.

但对于大多数人来说，我们只是变得不一致。

If I said, "Andrew, I want you to become the best three-point shooter you possibly can be, but you can't get any coaching, and you can't even watch any tutorials," right?

如果我说，“安德鲁，我希望你成为最好的三分射手，但你得不到任何指导，甚至看不到任何教程，”对吧？

But all you did for 10 years was go out and shoot three-pointers for two hours a day.

但十年来你所做的只是每天出去投两个小时三分球。

You probably won't go to the NBA, but I bet you'd be pretty good at three-pointers, right?

你可能不会去NBA，但我打赌你的三分球一定很不错，对吧？

And I feel like if people could just get that message and internalize it more.

我觉得如果人们能够理解这一信息并更多地内化它。

No, it's not that you didn't have your carb-to-fat ratio perfect.

不，这并不是说您的碳水化合物与脂肪的比例不完美。

No, it's not that you ate your carbs at the wrong time.

不，这并不是说你在错误的时间吃了碳水化合物。

No, it's not that you didn't get exactly this much protein.

不，这并不是说您没有获得这么多的蛋白质。

It's you just stopped being consistent.

只是你不再保持一致。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

You stopped doing it.

你停止这样做了。

Yeah, you were really consistent Monday through Friday, and then Saturday and Sunday came, and you blew out, right?

是的，周一到周五你表现得很稳定，然后周六和周日到来，你就崩溃了，对吧？

If I'm consistent with my budget Monday through Friday, but then I blow it on the weekend, hey, guess what?

如果我周一到周五都遵守预算，但周末却搞砸了，嘿，你猜怎么着？

That weekend money still counts, and calories are the same way.

周末的钱仍然很重要，卡路里也同样重要。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And you enjoy resistance training.

而且您喜欢阻力训练。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

I love it.

我喜欢它。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Do you do cardiovascular training?

你做心血管训练吗？

Defined as, because people get...

定义为，因为人们得到...

I'm starting to catch flak these days when I say cardio, believe it or not.

不管你信不信，这些天当我说有氧运动时，我开始受到批评。

...

...

repetitive motion movement designed to elevate your heart rate for 12 minutes or more.

旨在提高心率 12 分钟或更长时间的重复运动。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

So I'll usually do a five-minute warm-up on the bike before I train, and then I will also make sure I get at least 10,000 steps on average per day.

因此，在训练之前，我通常会在自行车上进行五分钟的热身，然后我也会确保平均每天至少走 10,000 步。

I usually average closer to 11,000.

我通常平均接近 11,000。

But I don't do a lot of purposeful cardio.

但我没有做很多有目的的有氧运动。

Now, what I will tell you is my average heart rate in lifting sessions is about 140 to 150.

现在，我要告诉你的是，我在举重训练中的平均心率约为 140 至 150。

So if the definition of cardio is that, then I'm getting cardio.

所以，如果有氧运动的定义就是这样，那么我就进行有氧运动。

And actually, when I've had most of my markers of metabolic health assessed, I'm very metabolically healthy.

事实上，当我评估了大部分代谢健康指标后，我的代谢非常健康。

I've got good...

我已经很好了...

Actually, it was funny.

事实上，这很有趣。

I just competed at nationals in late May, and-

我五月下旬刚刚参加了全国比赛，而且-

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

How'd that go?

怎么样？

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Won.

赢了。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Great.

太棒了。

Congrats.

恭喜。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

So I won, and actually, again, very cool kind of side story.

所以我赢了，实际上，又是一个非常酷的支线故事。

We talked about the injuries I've dealt with, and so I'm 42 now.

我们讨论了我所受的伤，所以我现在 42 岁了。

It's been an eight-year journey, and going from I've had back pain so bad I couldn't even get up off the floor.

这是一个八年的旅程，从那时起我的背部疼痛得很厉害，我什至无法从地板上站起来。

Needed a cortisone injection in my spine at one point just to be able to stand up.

我的脊柱一度需要注射可的松才能站起来。

And multiple hip injuries and a lot of chronic pain I dealt with, and I'm very proud of myself that I never gave up because in my heart of hearts, I felt like I haven't hit my last PR yet.

我经历了多次髋部受伤和许多慢性疼痛，我为自己感到非常自豪，因为我从未放弃过，因为在我内心深处，我觉得我还没有达到我的最后一个个人纪录。

And at nationals this past year, I actually set a national deadlift record for my age and weight.

在去年的全国比赛中，我实际上创下了我的年龄和体重的全国硬拉记录。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Congratulations.

恭喜。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

And it was actually an unofficial world record and qualified for world championships.

而且这实际上是一个非官方的世界纪录，并获得了参加世界锦标赛的资格。

But one of the Team USA coaches, his name's Matt Gary, him and his wife Susie are like an evidence-based powerlifting.

但美国队的一位教练，他的名字叫马特·加里，他和他的妻子苏西就像一个循证的举重运动员。

They are the GOATs.

他们是山羊。

And there is no better game day coach to pick attempts than Matt and Susie Gary, other than maybe my coach, Ben Escrow.

除了我的教练本·埃斯克罗（Ben Escrow）之外，没有比马特和苏西·加里（Susie Gary）更好的比赛日教练来挑选尝试了。

Shout out to Ben.

向本大喊。

But they were at the meet, and we've known each other for 15 years.

但他们出席了会议，而且我们已经认识 15 年了。

And the next day, I came down into the lobby, and they're down eating breakfast, and Matt's like, "Your ears must be burning.

第二天，我来到大厅，他们正在吃早餐，马特说，“你的耳朵一定在烧灼。

We were just talking about you." And I'm like, "Oh, what?" He goes, "You know what I'm impressed with?" He goes, "Your cardiovascular fitness." And a powerlifting meet's nine lifts, right?

我们刚才正在谈论你。”我想，“哦，什么？”他说：“你知道我对什么印象深刻吗？”他说：“你的心血管健康状况。”举重比赛有九次举重，对吗？

You get three attempts on squat, bench press, deadlift.

您可以尝试深蹲、卧推、硬拉 3 次。

And so I kind of like looked at him weird.

所以我有点奇怪地看着他。

He goes, "We were there between warm-ups and finishing.

他说道：“我们在热身和结束之间进行了比赛。

It was about four hours.

大约有四个小时。

You never sat down.

你从来没有坐下过。

You were yelling the entire time.

你一直在大喊大叫。

You're talking the entire time," because I'm a very extroverted, active person.

你一直在说话，”因为我是一个非常外向、活跃的人。

Then when I'm firing myself up, it comes out very extra.

然后当我激励自己时，它会变得非常额外。

He's like, "You're yelling the entire time, and you never were tired." And again, when I look at my heart rate when I was at the meet, I think the average was like 150 or 160.

他就像是，“你一直在大喊大叫，而且你从不感到疲倦。”再说一次，当我在比赛时查看我的心率时，我认为平均值约为 150 或 160。

And so some people would not consider that cardio, but I would say my cardiovascular system does all right.

所以有些人不会考虑有氧运动，但我会说我的心血管系统表现得很好。

So.

所以。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I would argue it might be related to your not getting sick very often.

我认为这可能与您不经常生病有关。

It's very clear that activation of the sympathetic nervous system is one main driver of the immune system.

很明显，交感神经系统的激活是免疫系统的主要驱动力之一。

This is why often people observe that they go through a very stressful period of life, and then they go on vacation, and they get sick.

这就是为什么人们经常观察到他们经历了一段非常紧张的生活时期，然后他们去度假，然后他们生病了。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Yep.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Or they're taking care of a loved one, and that person either gets better or passes away or there's some ending to that caretaking, and then they get sick.

或者他们正在照顾一个所爱的人，那个人要么好转，要么去世，或者这种照顾结束了，然后他们就生病了。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

I've observed that exact thing.

我观察到了这一点。

When I went through my first divorce, I was also involved in a lawsuit with a company that I used to own a portion of.

当我经历第一次离婚时，我还卷入了与我曾经拥有部分股份的一家公司的诉讼。

It's a very long story.

这是一个很长的故事。

Ended up having a good ending for me.

最终给我一个美好的结局。

And all that stuff kind of resolved itself, the divorce, the lawsuit, everything resolved itself in about a six-week time period.

所有这些事情都自行解决了，离婚、诉讼，一切都在大约六周的时间内自行解决。

As soon as it resolved, I got sicker than I ever had been in my entire life.

问题一解决，我的病情就变得比我一生中任何时候都严重。

I got the actual influenza.

我得了真正的流感。

I tell people after that experience in 2018, I go, "Here's words I'll never use again.

在 2018 年的那次经历之后，我告诉人们，“我再也不会使用这些词了。

I think I might have the flu." No, you know.

我想我可能得了流感。”不，你知道。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah, you know.

是的，你知道。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

After you've had it, for sure, you know.

等你用过之后，你就知道了。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah, you know.

是的，你知道。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

But it was like my body had just...

但我的身体就像刚刚...

Maybe it's a little bit of woo, but it was like my body, I dragged it across the finish line and then said, "Okay, we'll see you in a couple of weeks because we're taking a break."

也许这有点求爱，但它就像我的身体，我拖着它冲过终点线，然后说，“好吧，我们几周后见，因为我们要休息了。”

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

When you think about human evolution, these are just so stories anytime people talk about human evolution, by the way.

顺便说一句，当你想到人类进化时，每当人们谈论人类进化时，这些故事都是如此。

No one really knows, but the idea that if there was a famine or you need to take care of children in famine, the idea that you would be more vulnerable to disease at those moments, sure.

没有人真正知道，但如果发生饥荒，或者你需要照顾饥荒中的儿童，那么在那些时刻你会更容易感染疾病，这是肯定的。

But it's also true that the catecholamines, dopamine, epinephrine, norepinephrine, activate certain components of the immune system that protect you against things.

但儿茶酚胺、多巴胺、肾上腺素、去甲肾上腺素确实会激活免疫系统的某些成分，从而保护您免受侵害。

It's not going to protect you against everything, but it's when you relax and rest finally that you are more vulnerable to incoming infection.

它并不能保护您免受一切侵害，但当您最终放松并休息时，您更容易受到感染。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Well, we see this with pain too, right?

好吧，我们也很痛苦地看到这一点，对吧？

Like you had Chum Akion talking about this stuff where...

就像你让 Chum Akion 谈论这些东西一样......

I forget who was talking about this.

我忘记谁在谈论这个了。

I remember listening to a podcast.

我记得听过一个播客。

It wasn't him, but it was another pain expert, and they said because your beliefs about pain, your stress level, your sleep, your psychological milieu actually matter in terms of your pain experience.

不是他，而是另一位疼痛专家，他们说因为你对疼痛的信念、你的压力水平、你的睡眠、你的心理环境实际上对你的疼痛体验很重要。

In fact, the single biggest lever I've pulled to get me consistently training and pain-free was becoming more relaxed and less stressed out all the time and managing my psychological stress better.

事实上，为了让我持续训练和无痛，我所采取的最大的杠杆就是变得更加放松，压力更小，并更好地管理我的心理压力。

When you're not vibrating and spun up all the time, your body has, again, this is a little woo-wooey, but I think you have more energy.

当你不再一直振动和旋转时，你的身体再次，这有点令人兴奋，但我认为你有更多的能量。

If you look at-

如果你看-

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It makes sense.

这是有道理的。

It makes sense.

这是有道理的。

Those catecholamines, there are other molecules involved too, but that dopamine, epinephrine, norepinephrine cocktail is driving us forward in motion and thinking all the time.

这些儿茶酚胺，还有其他分子也参与其中，但多巴胺、肾上腺素、去甲肾上腺素鸡尾酒一直在推动我们前进和思考。

And if you're putting thoughts into one set of things, they're not going elsewhere.

如果你把想法放在一组事情上，它们就不会去其他地方。

Like you said, it's all trade-offs.

就像你说的，这都是权衡。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

I read something from a PhD in psychology who said, "Stop thinking about your problems.

我读过一位心理学博士的话，他说：“别再想你的问题了。

The problem is you're thinking about your problems too much.

问题是你把自己的问题想得太多了。

Thinking about them doesn't solve them, and just ruminating on them makes it worse." And actually, again, if you look at pain literature, fibromyalgia, chronic fatigue syndrome, very close ties to psychological stress And we were talking earlier about if you look at the data on mortality, cardiovascular disease, cancer with ACEs scores, which is adverse childhood event scale.

思考它们并不能解决问题，而只是反复思考它们会让事情变得更糟。”事实上，如果你看一下疼痛文献，纤维肌痛，慢性疲劳综合症，与心理压力的密切联系，我们之前讨论过，如果你看一下关于死亡率、心血管疾病、癌症的数据，以及 ACE 评分，这是不良儿童事件量表。

So zero being best, you were loved as a child, you had no real big worries.

所以零是最好的，你小时候就被爱着，你没有什么大的担忧。

10 being basically abused.

10 基本上被虐待了。

There's a very, I don't want to say very tight, but there's a dose response of ACEs scores on the risk of mortality.

我不想说非常严格，但 ACE 评分对死亡风险有剂量反应。

So what happens in the body affects the mind, and what happens in the mind affects the body.

因此，身体中发生的事情会影响头脑，头脑中发生的事情也会影响身体。

And we were talking about with pain literature, what happens in the mind affects the body in your pain experience, and even just something like sleep.

我们在谈论疼痛文献时，在疼痛经历中，头脑中发生的事情会影响身体，甚至只是像睡眠这样的事情。

There was a study done where they looked at military members, and they had eight hours of sleep versus four hours of sleep, and they looked at the risk of acute injury.

有一项研究针对军人进行了一项研究，他们的睡眠时间为八小时与四小时，并观察了急性损伤的风险。

236% increased risk in the people getting four hours of sleep versus eight hours.

睡眠时间为 4 小时的人与睡 8 小时的人相比，风险增加了 236%。

And now here's where people get this wrong.

现在这就是人们犯错误的地方。

Somebody reached out to me, said, "Well, I got four hours of sleep last night.

有人联系我说：“好吧，我昨晚睡了四个小时。

Should I..." No, no, no. One bad night of sleep doesn't do that.

我是不是应该……”不，不，不。一晚睡不好并不会产生这样的效果。

Sleep is a cumulative effect.

睡眠是一种累积效应。

Just like if you have a weeks long worth of bad sleep, but then you sleep 12 hours on the weekend, you're not making up that sleep debt.

就像如果你连续一周睡眠不好，但周末睡了 12 个小时，你就无法弥补睡眠债。

It's more about what you're doing time over time.

更重要的是你随着时间的推移所做的事情。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Just like nutrition, just like training.

就像营养一样，就像训练一样。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Exactly.

正是如此。

And so this actually brings me to-- I know we kind of have gone down the rabbit hole here, but when you look at-- Ben Carpenter did a great example of this.

所以这实际上让我想到——我知道我们有点掉进了兔子洞，但是当你看时——本·卡彭特在这方面做了一个很好的例子。

He has a good social media account.

他有一个很好的社交媒体帐户。

He had a jar of blue marbles and a jar of green marbles, and he said, "Let's pretend that this is all junk food.

他有一罐蓝色弹珠和一罐绿色弹珠，他说：“让我们假装这都是垃圾食品。

These green marbles are all junk food, ultra-processed.

这些绿色大理石都是经过超加工的垃圾食品。

This blue is minimally processed whole foods.

这种蓝色是经过最低限度加工的天然食品。

If my diet is mostly junk and I add one good meal," and he puts a blue marble in the green, "did it change things?" No. And everybody knows that.

如果我的饮食主要是垃圾食品，然后添加一顿美餐，”他在绿色中放了一块蓝色大理石，“这会改变什么吗？”不，每个人都知道这一点。

If you eat a mostly junk diet, you have one salad or one good meal, it's not going to change things.

如果你吃的大部分是垃圾饮食，你只吃一份沙拉或一顿美餐，这不会改变事情。

So why does everybody think if we take one from here and put it over here, that it drastically changes things?

那么为什么每个人都认为如果我们从这里取出一个并把它放在这里，就会彻底改变事情呢？

Because it doesn't.

因为事实并非如此。

It's about what you do consistently over the course of time.

这是关于你在一段时间内持续做的事情。

And so speaking of, we're talking about the mind affecting the body, but then the body also affects the mind.

说到这里，我们谈论的是思想影响身体，但身体也会影响思想。

And so there was just a study published, I just covered it on my channel, where they took men with general anxiety disorder and major depressive disorder, and they had them resistance train two times a week for 25 minutes a session, 50 minutes total, eight weeks.

所以刚刚发表了一项研究，我刚刚在我的频道上报道了它，他们对患有广泛性焦虑症和重度抑郁症的男性进行了每周两次的阻力训练，每次 25 分钟，总共 50 分钟，持续八周。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It's not much training.

这不是太多的训练。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

I think it was six hours and 40 minutes of total training over the entire two months.

我认为这两个月的总训练时间是 6 小时 40 分钟。

Now, in statistics, you're familiar with an effect size, which is basically how meaningful is an effect.

现在，在统计学中，您熟悉效应大小，这基本上就是效应的意义。

Because you can have a significant effect that isn't very meaningful if you have enough subject number.

因为如果你有足够的主题数量，你可能会产生不太有意义的显着影响。

So when we say things like an effect size, 0.2 is considered small, 0.5 is considered moderate, and 0.8 is considered large, anything above 0.8.

因此，当我们说效应大小之类的东西时，0.2 被认为是小，0.5 被认为是中等，0.8 被认为是大，任何高于 0.8 的值。

SSRIs are typically in the 0.3 to 0.5 range.

SSRIs 通常在 0.3 至 0.5 范围内。

I think in best case scenarios, they get up around a 0.8, 0.7, 0.8.

我认为在最好的情况下，它们会上升到 0.8、0.7、0.8 左右。

The effect size for resistance training two times a week, 25 minutes a day for eight weeks was a 1.7-

每周两次、每天 25 分钟、持续八周的阻力训练的效果大小为 1.7-

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Wow

哇

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

...

...

on major depressive disorder.

关于重度抑郁症。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Wow.

哇。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Anybody who's a scientist out there, if they hear effect size of 1.7, they do exactly what you did.

任何科学家，如果他们听到效应大小为 1.7，他们就会按照你的做法做。

Their eyebrows go up, and they go, "Are they sure that's right?" You don't see effect sizes like that very often.

他们扬起眉毛，问道：“他们确定这是对的吗？”您不会经常看到这样的效应大小。

And now I want to be very clear, I'm not saying do resistance training in place of SSRIs.

现在我想澄清的是，我并不是说用阻力训练来代替 SSRIs。

That's a very-

那是一个非常-

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

No, of course not.

不，当然不是。

But these individuals had not trained previously.

但这些人之前没有接受过训练。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

They hadn't trained before.

他们之前没有训练过。

Yeah.

是的。

They were healthy or...

他们是健康的或者...

I actually don't know the specific characteristics, but I knew they were coming from not training.

我其实不知道具体的特征，但我知道它们来自于不训练。

Now, hey, listen, both these things can be true.

现在，嘿，听着，这两件事都可能是真的。

Maybe somebody needs to get an SSRI because depressed people don't even want to get out of bed a lot of times.

也许有人需要服用 SSRI，因为抑郁症患者很多时候甚至不想起床。

So getting them to the gym, even if they know it's going to help them, it's a hard swing.

因此，让他们去健身房，即使他们知道这会对他们有帮助，这也是一个艰难的选择。

So maybe coupling that.

所以也许可以结合起来。

But that's just resistance training, and that affects this.

但这只是阻力训练，这会影响这一点。

So I think one of the biggest revolutions we're going to see in science is the broad application of biopsychosocial across a bunch of different disciplines, and stop thinking about, well, your body's a bag of meat, and it's attached to your brain, and if you poke the bag, punch the bag, burn the bag, cut the bag, brain goes owie.

So I think one of the biggest revolutions we're going to see in science is the broad application of biopsychosocial across a bunch of different disciplines, and stop thinking about, well, your body's a bag of meat, and it's attached to your brain, and if you poke the bag, punch the bag, burn the bag, cut the bag, brain goes owie.

And I think we're going to start thinking about things much differently, and I think it's going to open up a lot more in science.

我认为我们将开始以不同的方式思考事物，我认为这将在科学领域带来更多的启发。

And in fact, honestly, if I had to go back and do a PhD again, it would be in some sort of psychology or whatnot because I just think there's so much untapped in that realm.

And in fact, honestly, if I had to go back and do a PhD again, it would be in some sort of psychology or whatnot because I just think there's so much untapped in that realm.

And I was actually talking about this with somebody the other day, and it's pure anecdote.

前几天我确实和某人谈论过这件事，这纯粹是轶事。

I'm completely speculating.

我完全是在猜测。

I have yet to see an interview with somebody who's in their 90s or 100s who sounds really stressed out.

我还没有见过对 90 多岁或 100 多岁的人进行采访时听起来压力很大。

They're mostly like DGAF.

他们大多像 DGAF。

And when you ask them what they did, most of them say, "Oh, I drink wine every night," or the one lady I remember, she was like 110, she's like, "Yeah, I drink a Dr. Pepper every day," or whatever.

And when you ask them what they did, most of them say, "Oh, I drink wine every night," or the one lady I remember, she was like 110, she's like, "Yeah, I drink a Dr. Pepper every day," or whatever.

It strikes me that, and again, genetics matter, their lifestyle matters.

我再次意识到，遗传很重要，他们的生活方式也很重要。

I'm not saying any of that stuff doesn't matter.

我并不是说这些东西不重要。

I don't see, at least in my experience, people who make it old age, they're not usually very spun up all the time.

至少根据我的经验，我没有看到那些能活到老年的人，他们通常不会一直很忙碌。

I haven't observed that.

我没有观察到这一点。

I don't know if you've seen similar observations or-

我不知道你是否见过类似的观察或者——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

No, they seem to enjoy life.

不，他们似乎很享受生活。

I have a grandfather on one side that died earlier, but a grandfather on the other side who lived into his 90s, and he ate a steak every day.

我一边有一位爷爷去世得比较早，另一边却有一位活到90多岁的爷爷，他每天都吃一块牛排。

He smoked till pretty late in life before he eventually quit.

他抽烟直到很晚才最终戒掉。

He had ice cream dessert after every dinner.

每次晚餐后他都会吃冰淇淋甜点。

He's Argentine, so they stack their meals toward the end of the day, definitely He liked walking.

他是阿根廷人，所以他们在一天结束时把饭菜堆起来，他肯定喜欢散步。

I guess the point is that he was always interested in what was in the newspapers, but he wouldn't get riled up about it.

我想关键是他总是对报纸上的内容感兴趣，但他不会为此生气。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

He liked walking.

他喜欢散步。

He really enjoyed life.

他真的很享受生活。

Like if there's one key characteristic to describe him is he really enjoyed life.

就像如果有一个关键特征来形容他的话，那就是他真的很享受生活。

Now he didn't take the best care of himself in the sense that had he perhaps never smoked or quit earlier or dropped the excess calories, he might have lived an additional two or three years.

Now he didn't take the best care of himself in the sense that had he perhaps never smoked or quit earlier or dropped the excess calories, he might have lived an additional two or three years.

But he was really happy until the end.

但直到最后他真的很开心。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

And that's the lesson there is we're not saying that that stuff doesn't matter.

这就是我们的教训，我们并不是说这些东西不重要。

He would've gotten better results if he hadn't smoked, if he had paid more attention to his nutrition, that sort of thing.

如果他不抽烟，如果他更加注意营养等等，他会取得更好的成绩。

But we have to keep in mind, what is the hierarchy of importance and the power here, right?

但我们必须记住，这里的重要性和权力的等级制度是什么，对吗？

And so I'll give you an example.

我给你举个例子。

We're going to zoom in on the blade of grass, but I believe it relates back to this conversation we're having.

我们将放大草叶，但我相信这与我们正在进行的对话有关。

So we know creatine works because we've got thousands of double-blind placebo-controlled trials showing that creatine works, right?

所以我们知道肌酸有效，因为我们有数千个双盲安慰剂对照试验表明肌酸有效，对吧？

But there was a study where they gave people creatine or didn't give them creatine, and then randomly told them if they got it or not.

但有一项研究，他们给人们提供肌酸或不给他们肌酸，然后随机告诉他们是否得到了肌酸。

Meaning you had people who didn't get creatine, got creatine, who didn't get it, told they didn't get it, people who got it, told they got it, and people who got it, told they didn't get it.

Meaning you had people who didn't get creatine, got creatine, who didn't get it, told they didn't get it, people who got it, told they got it, and people who got it, told they didn't get it.

And what they found was the results, and I forget what they actually specifically measured, but the results basically were like, not what they got, what they told them.

And what they found was the results, and I forget what they actually specifically measured, but the results basically were like, not what they got, what they told them.

Okay?

好的？

Now people will misinterpret that as, "Well, see, creatine doesn't work." No, no, no. It works.

现在人们会误解为：“好吧，看，肌酸不起作用。”不，不，不。有用。

It just means your beliefs about what creatine does are more powerful than what it actually does.

这只是意味着您对肌酸作用的信念比它的实际作用更强大。

Just like actually there's a similar trial with caffeine.

就像实际上有一个类似的咖啡因试验。

And, there was a study, Brett, I don't have the specific citation, but they had two groups of men train drug-free.

而且，有一项研究，布雷特，我没有具体的引文，但他们让两组人进行了不吸毒的训练。

One group, they told they were getting steroids.

他们告诉其中一组正在服用类固醇。

That group gained significantly more strength and muscle mass.

该组的力量和肌肉质量显着增加。

Now, I would argue that's probably because they're going into training sessions believing that they can train harder, believing that they will recover better.

Now, I would argue that's probably because they're going into training sessions believing that they can train harder, believing that they will recover better.

But that goes to show the power of placebo and the power of belief.

但这证明了安慰剂的力量和信念的力量。

When I say placebo, people think what I'm saying is you're lying about your experience.

当我说安慰剂时，人们认为我的意思是你在说谎。

That is not what I am saying at all.

我根本不是这个意思。

I think your experience is probably quite valid.

我认为你的经验可能非常有效。

What I'm saying is it may not be due to the thing you think it's due to, but your beliefs about the thing.

我想说的是，这可能不是由于你认为的事情造成的，而是你对事情的信念造成的。

And so where I get really focused is let's do the big stuff right, because so many people are so worried about little stuff.

所以我真正关注的是让我们把大事做好，因为很多人都担心小事。

And one of the things I'll tell them is, "Hey, I have no data to back this up, but my intuition tells me that the amount of stress you're spending on these small variables is probably killing you faster than if you got those variables wrong.

我要告诉他们的一件事是，“嘿，我没有数据支持这一点，但我的直觉告诉我，你在这些小变量上花费的压力可能会比你弄错这些变量更快地杀死你。

And if we could just focus on the big rocks first, and if we can pick up some pebbles after we get the big rocks, great.

如果我们能够先专注于大岩石，并且在获得大岩石后能够捡起一些卵石，那就太好了。

But don't drop the big rocks trying to pick up pebbles."

但不要为了捡起鹅卵石而扔掉大石头。”

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I love it.

我喜欢它。

And I love this example of the creatine experiment because just to repeat the conclusion, because I want to make sure that people don't take away the wrong conclusion.

我喜欢这个肌酸实验的例子，因为只是为了重复结论，因为我想确保人们不会带走错误的结论。

Creatine works.

肌酸起作用。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Absolutely.

绝对的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But your belief about creatine works more in this case.

但在这种情况下，你对肌酸的信念更有效。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So two things can work, one more than the other.

因此，有两件事可以发挥作用，其中一件事比另一件事更有效。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And the placebo, AKA belief effects, are very, very powerful.

安慰剂，又称信念效应，非常非常强大。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Exactly.

正是如此。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I completely agree with you there.

我完全同意你的观点。

Wonderful way to set the stage for some of the specific questions that were asked when I said on social media I'm going to sit down with Layne Norton again.

Wonderful way to set the stage for some of the specific questions that were asked when I said on social media I'm going to sit down with Layne Norton again.

And I'm very curious about some of these as well, so I'll-

我对其中一些也很好奇，所以我-

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Yep

是的

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

I'll inject some of my own experience and questions.

我将注入一些我自己的经验和问题。

Training to failure and reps in reserve.

训练至力竭并保留重复次数。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

We should define these a little bit before we get into it.

在我们开始讨论之前，我们应该先对它们进行一些定义。

It's fun to have these kinds of conversations nowadays about resistance training, knowing that both men and women should resistance train.

现在进行此类有关阻力训练的对话很有趣，因为我们知道男性和女性都应该进行阻力训练。

People who want bigger muscles and who don't should resistance train.

想要更大肌肉和不想要更大肌肉的人都应该进行阻力训练。

Because in the past it was always about bodybuilding and preseason football and people-

因为过去总是关于健美、季前赛足球和人——

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Right

右

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

going to the military.

去参军。

I think thanks to the great work that you've done, but I'll just give a particular shout-out to some of the women in the nutrition and fitness space, namely Dr. Gabrielle Lyon-

I think thanks to the great work that you've done, but I'll just give a particular shout-out to some of the women in the nutrition and fitness space, namely Dr. Gabrielle Lyon-

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

in terms of menopause, perimenopause, Dr. Mary Claire Haver, and women in that sector are really emphasizing the key need for resistance training.

in terms of menopause, perimenopause, Dr. Mary Claire Haver, and women in that sector are really emphasizing the key need for resistance training.

There are other names as well, but really championing the importance of resistance training.

还有其他名字，但真正倡导阻力训练的重要性。

Training to failure in my book means when you can't move the weight by whatever means anymore in good form.

在我的书中，训练至力竭意味着当你无法再以良好的状态通过任何方式移动重量时。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

In proper form.

以适当的形式。

That's failure.

那就是失败。

So we're not talking about forced reps, we're not talking about swaying the upper body or using momentum.

所以我们不是在谈论强迫次数，我们不是在谈论摇摆上半身或使用动量。

So training to failure, you can't move the resistance anymore in good form.

因此，训练到力竭时，您将无法再以良好的状态移动阻力。

And reps in reserve, my understanding is one's own subjective understanding about how close they are to that point of failure.

至于后备代表，我的理解是一个人自己对他们离失败点有多近的主观理解。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Do I have that right?

我有这个权利吗？

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Yeah.

是的。

So you define failure the way I define failure, which is you cannot take the weight through another concentric repetition without breaking form.

所以你定义失败的方式就像我定义失败一样，也就是说你不能在不破坏形式的情况下通过另一个同心重复来承受重量。

Reps in reserve would be an RIR of one means you stopped one rep shy of failure.

备用代表的 RIR 为 1，这意味着您停止了一次避免失败的代表。

RIR of two, you stopped two reps shy of failure, and so on and so forth.

RIR 为 2，您就停止了两次失败的次数，依此类推。

Right?

正确的？

And so I would define those that way.

所以我会这样定义它们。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Okay.

好的。

So with those definitions in mind, is training to failure more effective at generating strength and hypertrophy increases than if one keeps a few reps in reserve?

那么，考虑到这些定义，力竭训练是否比保留几次重复训练更能有效地产生力量和增肌呢？

And of course, we have to balance this against all the factors related to recovery, et cetera.

当然，我们必须平衡这一点与与恢复等相关的所有因素。

But assuming that one follows a program of doing, and I'm really just trying to cut right through the middle here, let's say two or three exercises per muscle group and does after a sufficient warmup Let's say two to five sets that we're going to call work sets.

但假设一个人遵循一个训练计划，我真的只是想从中间切入，假设每个肌肉群进行两到三个练习，并在充分的热身之后进行。假设做两到五组，我们将称之为工作组。

You could imagine an extreme scenario where every single work set is taken to failure.

您可以想象一个极端的场景，其中每个工作集都会失败。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You could imagine taking only the last set of each exercise to failure, you could imagine taking none of them to failure.

你可以想象每项练习只做最后一组就失败，你也可以想象没有任何一个练习失败。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Assuming adequate volume is achieved across the week, my understanding is this is 10 to 20 sets per muscle group across the week.

假设一周内达到足够的训练量，我的理解是一周内每个肌群进行 10 到 20 组。

It could be distributed across different workouts or all done in one workout.

它可以分布在不同的锻炼中，也可以在一次锻炼中完成。

Is training to failure going to generate more strength and hypertrophy than leaving some repetitions in reserve?

进行力竭训练是否会比保留一些重复次数产生更多的力量和肌肉肥大？

So let's start with the extreme scenario.

那么让我们从极端场景开始吧。

I go to failure on every single set, and I do what I need to to recover.

我在每组比赛中都会失败，但我会尽我所能来恢复。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Doesn't matter if it's only doing that muscle group once per week or spread out multiple times per week.

无论每周只锻炼该肌肉群一次还是每周分散多次，都没有关系。

I'm doing what I need to to recover in between.

我正在做我需要做的事情来恢复。

My genetics, my hormone status, my sleep, my nutrition, on and on.

我的基因、我的荷尔蒙状态、我的睡眠、我的营养等等。

Is going to failure more effective than not going to failure?

失败比不失败更有效吗？

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

This is going to generate a lot of discussion in the comments.

这将在评论中引起大量讨论。

I can't wait to see it.

我等不及要看它了。

So I'm going to cite quite a bit of work from my powerlifting coach, Zach Robinson, because he is at FAU, just finished his PhD and did a lot of meta-regressions and meta-analyses on this exact topic.

因此，我将引用我的举重教练扎克·罗宾逊 (Zach Robinson) 的大量工作，因为他在 FAU，刚刚完成博士学位，并就这个主题做了很多元回归和元分析。

So I'll give you the answers first that are straight down the line scientific answers, and then I'll explain things.

所以我会首先给你答案，这些答案都是直接的科学答案，然后我会解释一些事情。

For muscular hypertrophy, you need to get close to failure.

对于肌肉肥大，你需要接近力竭。

But you probably don't need to train to failure to maximize hypertrophy, but you got to get pretty close.

但是你可能不需要训练到力竭才能最大化肥大，但你必须非常接近。

You can be stronger, but to maximize strength, you're probably better off not touching failure very often.

你可以变得更坚强，但为了最大限度地发挥力量，你最好不要经常接触失败。

So there are a few studies now looking at this, showing that, I think there was one study recently, and I can't remember the exact details, but I remember it being pretty well designed.

现在有一些研究正在关注这个问题，表明，我认为最近有一项研究，我不记得确切的细节，但我记得它设计得非常好。

And the takeaway was hypertrophy was similar between the groups, but the group that went to failure or stayed a few reps shy of failure actually got stronger compared to the group that was taking most sets to failure.

得出的结论是，各组之间的肌肥大是相似的，但与进行最多组数至力竭的组相比，那些失败或保持几次失败的组实际上变得更强。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And did they control for total volume of work?

他们控制了工作总量吗？

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Okay, because I can imagine not going to failure-

好吧，因为我可以想象不会失败-

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Sure

当然可以

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

you can do more sets because you've got-

你可以做更多组，因为你有-

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

And that's exactly-

那正是——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

more, quote unquote, "gas in the tank," right?

更多，引用未引用的内容，“罐中的气体”，对吧？

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

And practically, that may be a benefit of stopping shy of failure, right?

实际上，这可能是停止回避失败的好处，对吧？

But, yeah, they controlled for those variables.

但是，是的，他们控制了这些变量。

So when we talk about volume, the way we define that is essentially number of hard sets, which a hard set would be a set close to failure.

因此，当我们谈论数量时，我们定义的方式本质上是硬组的数量，而硬组将是接近失败的组。

The general consensus is within five reps of failure is considered a hard set.

人们普遍认为，五次以内的失败被认为是硬组。

Now, what I will tell people is that may not sound like much.

现在，我要告诉人们的是，这听起来可能并不多。

Most people have never truly pushed themselves to failure, okay?

大多数人从来没有真正把自己推向失败，好吗？

And I'll give some practical examples of me.

我会举一些我自己的实际例子。

So my best set of squats ever, I did 530 for 10.

所以我迄今为止最好的一组深蹲是 10 次 530 次。

This is a long time ago.

这是很久以前的事了。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yikes.

哎呀。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

When I finished that set, somebody had to come save me because I couldn't fully lock out my lumbar, and I couldn't get the bar on my right side all the way back up.

当我完成那一组后，必须有人来救我，因为我无法完全锁定我的腰椎，而且我无法将右侧的杠铃完全恢复。

Somebody had to run over in the gym and help me.

必须有人跑到健身房来帮助我。

After that set, I laid down, and I physically hardly could move for about 15 minutes.

那组比赛结束后，我躺了下来，大约有15分钟我的身体几乎无法动弹。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So this is gun to the head-

所以这是枪指着头——

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Yes

是的

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

type failure.

类型失败。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Do as many as you can.

尽可能多地做。

Your family's been kidnapped.

你的家人被绑架了。

If you don't get these 10 reps, you're...

如果你没有完成这 10 次，那么你...

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

All those mental games.

所有这些心理游戏。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

That sort of thing.

诸如此类的事情。

And I was done.

我已经完成了。

You know what I mean?

你知道我的意思？

And so one of the things I'll tell people is the first five reps of that set were still hard.

因此，我要告诉人们的一件事是，该组的前五次仍然很困难。

They still felt hard, right?

他们还是觉得很难，对吧？

And so people who will say, "Oh, you stop a rep or two shy of failure, you're trained like a..." So you're telling me if I stop two reps shy on that one, that that's an easy set?

所以有人会说，“哦，你会因为失败而停止一两次代表，你的训练就像......”所以你是在告诉我，如果我在那个失败上停止两次代表，那是一个简单的组吗？

Because it's not.

因为事实并非如此。

I can tell you that.

我可以告诉你。

And the reason I'm giving this background is because in research studies where they have people who are beginners or intermediates and they ask them to rate their RIR, they tend to underestimate their RIR, right?

我给出这个背景的原因是因为在研究中，他们有初学者或中级人员，并要求他们评价他们的 RIR，他们往往会低估他们的 RIR，对吗？

So they'll say, during a set, "Say your RIR." And they might say, "Two." And what they find is when the researchers push them to true failure, yell at them, crank the music, get them really psyched up, they get five more reps than they think they'll get on average, right?

所以他们会在一组中说，“说出你的 RIR。”他们可能会说：“两个。”他们发现，当研究人员将他们推向真正的失败，对他们大喊大叫，打开音乐，让他们真正兴奋起来时，他们比他们想象的平均次数多了五次，对吧？

So most people, if you've never actually taken things to true failure, you actually probably don't know what it is.

所以大多数人，如果你从未真正经历过真正的失败，你实际上可能不知道那是什么。

So I do think it's useful to train to failure at times.

所以我确实认为有时训练到力竭是有用的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I think you make a very important point, which is that occasionally training to failure gives you a sense of what failure really is for you.

我认为你提出了一个非常重要的观点，那就是偶尔的失败训练会让你感受到失败对你来说到底意味着什么。

And no one can really tell you that.

没有人能真正告诉你这一点。

Only you can tell you that and experience that.

只有你才能告诉你并体验到这一点。

But if I understand correctly, earlier you said once you know what failure is for you, then if strength gains are your goal, and I think more and more people, by the way, are training for strength who don't want hypertrophy, at least not across every muscle group.

但如果我理解正确的话，早些时候你说过，一旦你知道失败对你来说意味着什么，那么如果力量增益是你的目标，顺便说一句，我认为越来越多的人正在进行力量训练，但他们不想肥大，至少不是每个肌肉群都肥大。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I think when I talk to the general public, which I do a lot, I get the sense that men and women are like, "Yeah, I'll lift weights.

我想，当我经常与公众交谈时，我感觉到男人和女人都会说：“是的，我会举重。

I can see the value of that.

我可以看到它的价值。

Would love a little bit more muscle here, a little bit more muscle there," but they don't want to be generally larger.

希望这里有更多的肌肉，那里有更多的肌肉，”但他们不想普遍变得更大。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And yet they can understand and appreciate the value of getting stronger everywhere.

然而，他们能够理解并欣赏在任何地方变得更强的价值。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Because being strong across your whole body is one of the core definitions of health.

因为全身强壮是健康的核心定义之一。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Being strong is fun.

坚强是一件很有趣的事。

So again, for hypertrophy, doesn't seem to matter if you take every set to failure or stop a couple reps shy.

再说一次，对于肌肥大来说，如果你把每组都做到力竭或者停止几次重复，似乎并不重要。

I would argue that probably you'd want to leave most sets shy of failure, and if you're going to take one to failure, take the last set of an exercise to failure.

我认为，你可能希望让大多数组都避免失败，如果你打算让其中一组失败，那么就让最后一组练习失败。

Because then you can get whatever benefits might be there.

因为这样你就可以获得任何可能的好处。

But if you take the first set to failure, imagine if I did that set of 10 with 530 on squats as my first set to-- What am I going to get the next set if I try to do 530?

但如果你第一组就失败了，想象一下，如果我以 530 深蹲作为我的第一组，做 10 组，那么如果我尝试做 530，下一组会得到什么？

I can tell you based on how I felt, maybe three reps.

我可以根据我的感受告诉你，也许重复三遍。

Maybe.

或许。

And so your performance is just going to really drop off a cliff if you're going to true failure on a compound exercise.

因此，如果你在复合练习中真正失败，你的表现就会真正下降。

Isolation's a little bit different.

隔离有点不同。

And so I would say, whereas if you probably could have done sets with six, seven reps for multiple sets and then have gone to failure on your last one, right?

所以我想说，如果你可能已经完成了六、七次多组的训练，然后最后一组却失败了，对吧？

Now, it may seem a little bit counterintuitive.

现在看来，这似乎有点违反直觉。

Why would it be the same for hypertrophy but different for strength?

为什么对于肥大来说是相同的，而对于力量来说却是不同的？

Well, with strength, you also have to think about stimulus-to-fatigue ratio, because fatigue will mask strength, right?

好吧，有了力量，你还必须考虑刺激与疲劳的比率，因为疲劳会掩盖力量，对吧？

And I know this because when I overreach for powerlifting competitions, which is basically we're taking me a little bit past my point of what I can recover from.

我知道这一点，因为当我过度参加举重比赛时，基本上我们已经让我超出了我可以恢复的程度。

I've had literally before Nationals in 2017, I was warming up on deadlift, my last heavy deadlift session, 10 days before the meet, and I went to pull my final warm-up, which is 585, and I couldn't budge it off the ground.

2017 年全国赛之前，我确实进行过一次硬拉热身，这是我最后一次大重量硬拉训练，距离比赛还有 10 天，我去进行最后一次热身，即 585 米，但我无法将其从地面上移开。

I was so tired, sore.

我好累，好痛。

It was like I couldn't get my body to do what I wanted it to do.

就好像我无法让我的身体做我想做的事。

Ten days later, I pulled 716, right?

十天后，我拉了716吧？

It's amazing what fatigue will mask.

令人惊奇的是，疲劳会掩盖什么。

And so if you're always training to failure, you're going to be training under pretty high fatigue circumstances.

因此，如果你总是训练到力竭，那么你就会在相当高的疲劳情况下进行训练。

Doesn't really matter for muscle growth because it's really just about doing enough hard sets and putting that mechanical tension on the muscle.

对于肌肉生长来说并不重要，因为它实际上只是做足够的困难组并对肌肉施加机械张力。

With strength, you also have to think about what is the most pure form of strength?

有了力量，你还要思考什么是最纯粹的力量形式？

It's force production, right?

这是力生产吧？

And force is mass times acceleration.

力是质量乘以加速度。

So you have a mass component, you have a speed component.

所以你有一个质量成分，你有一个速度成分。

And so this is actually Zach Robinson and his company, Data Driven Strength, who I've been coaching with for three years.

这实际上是扎克·罗宾逊（Zach Robinson）和他的公司“数据驱动力量”（Data Driven Strength），我已经和他一起执教了三年。

I heard them on a podcast, and he was giving his hypothesis of how to optimize strength in a powerlifter, and I remember thinking, "I really like the way this guy's thinking.

我在播客上听到了他们的声音，他正在给出如何优化举重运动员力量的假设，我记得我当时想，“我真的很喜欢这个人的思维方式。

He's thinking outside the box, and it makes a lot of sense." So one of his things was, if you're training close to fatigue all the time, and the goal is strength, think about what that means in terms of your force production.

他的思维跳出了框框，这很有意义。”所以他的一件事是，如果你一直在接近疲劳的训练，并且目标是力量，请考虑一下这对你的力量产生意味着什么。

So let's say you do a set of eight reps, right?

假设你做了一组八次重复，对吧？

Your first few are pretty fast, and then by the end, they're pretty slow.

你的前几个速度相当快，然后到最后，它们就相当慢了。

The load hasn't changed, so what happens to your force production?

负载没有改变，那么你的力量产生会发生什么变化呢？

Your force production is going pretty far down.

你的力量生产正在大幅下降。

He said, "I don't really want my athletes grinding reps in training.

他说：“我真的不希望我的运动员在训练中磨蹭次数。

I want them to hit some heavy singles and doubles and triples because they need that, because that's a skill." Everybody's done this, where they go, "Well, I hit this for 10 reps, and here's what my one-rep max should be." And then they go in and get stapled with it, right?

我希望他们打出一些大重量的单打、双打和三垒安打，因为他们需要这些，因为这是一项技能。”每个人都做过这个，他们去哪里，“好吧，我打了 10 次，这就是我的 1 次最大次数应该是多少。”然后他们进去钉上它，对吗？

Because it doesn't necessarily translate, because a one-rep max or the purest form of strength is a very specific skill.

因为它不一定可以转化，因为一次最大次数或最纯粹的力量形式是一项非常具体的技能。

If you've never trained it, it's very difficult to get accustomed to.

如果你从来没有训练过它，那么很难适应。

His idea was, in workouts, we're going to hit a heavy top set, a heavy single, double, or triple, or whatever it is, and then our back-off sets, instead of taking those close to failure, instead of doing, say, well, we'll do 75% of your training max for sets of eight and have you getting pretty close to failure.

”

Instead of doing three sets of eight, why don't we just do six sets of four with that weight?

我们为什么不以同样的重量做六组，每组四次，而不是做三组，每组八次？

Because now you're doing those first four reps, which you can move that weight faster, you're having greater force production and creating the good stimulus, but with less fatigue.

因为现在你正在做前四次，你可以更快地移动重量，你会产生更大的力量并产生良好的刺激，但疲劳会减少。

And so again, that was kind of the hypothesis, and he did a meta-analysis, meta-regression that supported this, and now some of the randomized control trials have come out and shown something similar.

再说一次，这就是一种假设，他做了荟萃分析、荟萃回归来支持这一点，现在一些随机对照试验已经出来并显示出类似的结果。

And in my experience, I was honestly shocked at-- Because he had all kinds of stuff to deal with when he first started training me because I still was dealing with a lot of back pain, a lot of hip pain.

根据我的经验，我真的很震惊——因为当他第一次开始训练我时，他有各种各样的事情要处理，因为我仍然在处理很多背部疼痛、臀部疼痛。

I hadn't really gotten that under control yet.

我还没有真正控制住它。

And when I got ready for Worlds in 2022, which I think we did our first podcast the week after I had won Worlds, I worked up to being able to do two or three hard sets of squats a week and deadlifts, and that was all I could do.

当我为 2022 年世界赛做准备时，我想我们在我赢得世界赛后一周做了我们的第一个播客，我努力做到每周做两到三组深蹲和硬拉，这就是我能做的。

That was all my body could tolerate before I'd get pain.

在我感到疼痛之前，这是我的身体所能忍受的。

And so we did a lot of low load, relatively low, low for me, 60% to 70% 1RM for low rep number sets, but trying to move it as fast as possible to keep that pain under control for me, but to get the stimulus.

所以我们做了很多低负荷，相对较低，对我来说较低，低次数组的 60% 到 70% 1RM，但试图尽可能快地移动它，以控制我的疼痛，但为了获得刺激。

And I was shocked at how strong I got because before, in 2014, '15, when I was winning open national titles, I was doing 15, 20 hard sets of squats and deadlifts a week, and way more for bench press.

我对自己的力量如此强大感到震惊，因为在 2014 年、15 年之前，当我赢得全国公开赛冠军时，我每周做 15、20 组深蹲和硬拉，以及更多的卧推。

And so I always thought, well, that's how much I need to get to that level of strength.

所以我一直想，好吧，这就是我需要达到那种力量水平的程度。

And even now, so we've been able to keep progressing it.

即使是现在，我们仍然能够不断取得进展。

Now I'm doing probably more like six, seven harder sets of those exercises per week, and I'm basically back to the strongest I've ever been, doing way less sets.

现在我每周可能会做六、七组较难的练习，而且我基本上已经恢复到了我曾经的最强状态，但组数却少了很多。

And I think a lot of it is we have learned to find the sweet spot with managing that stimulus-to-fatigue ratio.

我认为很大程度上是我们已经学会找到管理刺激与疲劳比率的最佳点。

So all that to say, if your goal is building strength, it's mostly about doing enough heavy lifting that you actually do get stronger, and then if you want to train closer to failure, you can, because again, most of my audience isn't trying to be a powerlifter, right?

综上所述，如果你的目标是增强力量，那么主要是做足够的举重，这样你实际上就会变得更强壮，然后如果你想训练接近失败，你可以，因为同样，我的大多数观众并不想成为一名举重运动员，对吧？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

No, but I think a lot of the audience would like to be stronger and not necessarily grow their muscles bigger-

不，但我想很多观众都希望自己变得更强，但不一定要把肌肉练得更大——

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Right

右

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

except in a few specific places on the body.

除了身体上的一些特定部位。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

And so this would be the protocol.

这就是协议。

There we go.

我们开始吧。

Protocols.

协议。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Little plug.

小插头。

This would be a protocol for probably not necessarily growing the most muscle mass, but getting stronger because you're not training so close to failure.

这将是一个可能不一定会增加最多肌肉质量的方案，但会变得更强壮，因为你的训练不会那么接近失败。

But obviously you're trying to move, as Zach says Whatever that given load is, you want to move it as quickly as possible.

但显然你正在尝试移动，正如扎克所说，无论给定的负载是什么，你都希望尽快移动它。

And there's actually also data to show that if you train slower purposefully, that it's not as good for strength.

实际上也有数据表明，如果你刻意放慢训练速度，对力量的锻炼效果并不好。

So there was-

所以就有了——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Hmm

嗯

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

...

...

I think, a meta-analysis recently where they looked at either concentric repetition of more than two seconds or less than two seconds, and saw strength outcomes were better in people taking less than two seconds to complete a rep.

我认为，最近的一项荟萃分析研究了超过两秒或少于两秒的同心重复，发现人们在不到两秒的时间内完成一次重复的力量效果更好。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Interesting.

有趣。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

So.

所以。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

That's the concentric phase.

这就是同心阶段。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

The lowering phase, the eccentric phase.

下降阶段，偏心阶段。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Yeah, we're not sure about that yet.

是的，我们还不确定。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Interesting.

有趣。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

So, we do use some tempo training in my training, but it's mostly because me doing a slower tempo squat, if my back starts acting up, I can do some squatting and not really hit that pain trigger as much.

所以，我们在训练中确实使用了一些节奏训练，但这主要是因为我进行了较慢的节奏深蹲，如果我的背部开始出现问题，我可以做一些深蹲，而不会真正触发疼痛。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

But I'm still trying to move the concentric as quickly as possible.

但我仍在努力尽快移动同心圆。

And so I don't know about that, does it matter how slowly you move the concentric versus how fast you move it.

所以我不知道你移动同心圆的速度有多慢与移动速度有多快是否重要。

But yeah, what I would say is, when it comes to building muscle, really the world is your oyster.

但是，是的，我想说的是，当谈到锻炼肌肉时，世界真的是你的牡蛎。

The research really shows machines versus free weights-

这项研究确实展示了机器与自由重量的对比——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Low reps, high reps

低次数、高次数

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

...

...

low reps, high reps, going to failure, stopping a few reps shy, it all builds the same amount of muscle for the most part.

低次数、高次数、力竭、少做几次，大部分情况下都会锻炼出相同数量的肌肉。

And so-

所以——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But you have to work hard

但你必须努力工作

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

But you got to work hard, yeah.

但你必须努力工作，是的。

You got to be consistent with it, obviously, the theme of this podcast, right?

显然，你必须与这个播客的主题保持一致，对吧？

But you can do it any...

但你可以做任何事...

And if we look at the, obviously anecdotal, but if we look at the history of the Mr. Olympias, they all train very differently.

如果我们看看，显然是轶事，但如果我们看看奥林匹亚先生的历史，他们的训练方式都非常不同。

Ronnie Coleman, I'm sure you remember when "The Unbelievable" came out, his DVD back in 2001, where he's tossing around 200-pound dumbbells, and he's doing 700, 800-pound squats and 600-pound front squats, and everybody's just looking at this like, "My God." And then you watch somebody like Phil Heath train, who, again, one of the greatest Mr. Olympias of all time, Phil mostly did machines.

罗尼·库尔曼，我相信你还记得 2001 年《难以置信》问世的时候，他的 DVD 中他扔着 200 磅重的哑铃，他正在做 700 磅、800 磅深蹲和 600 磅前蹲，每个人都只是看着这个，“我的上帝”。然后你会看到像菲尔·希思这样的人训练，他又是有史以来最伟大的奥林匹亚斯先生之一，菲尔主要训练机器。

But he built, obviously, a great amount of muscle.

但显然，他长出了大量的肌肉。

Now, people will say, "Well, they're on steroids." All those guys.

现在，人们会说：“好吧，他们在服用类固醇。”所有这些家伙。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah, it's all controlled.

是的，一切都被控制了。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Trust me, it's an equal playing field.

相信我，这是一个平等的竞争环境。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right.

对。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Because they're all doing it, right?

因为他们都在这么做，对吗？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right.

对。

And the research shows anywhere from, whatever, five to 30 repetitions can generate hypertrophy as long as the final few repetitions are really hard and-

研究表明，无论怎样，只要最后几次重复非常困难，5 到 30 次重复就可以产生肌肉肥大——

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Correct

正确

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

and volume is adjusted.

并调节音量。

I really like-

我真的很喜欢-

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

There is no hypertrophy rep range like people used to think about.

并不存在人们过去想象的增肌次数范围。

It's like, "Oh, six to 15 reps is hypertrophy." Now, I think practically it makes sense to do a lot of your sets in that range, because if you're trying to do 30 reps getting close to failure, I mean, gosh, I'm going to run out of breath if I'm doing any kind of compound-

就像，“哦，重复 6 到 15 次就可以增肌了。”现在，我认为实际上在这个范围内做很多组是有意义的，因为如果你试图做 30 次接近失败，我的意思是，天哪，如果我做任何一种复合动作，我都会上气不接下气——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Well, so it's if you work out in a-

好吧，如果你在——

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

It's also boring for me

对我来说也很无聊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

And if you work out in a gym where there are other people, be kind.

如果您在有其他人的健身房锻炼，请保持友善。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Other people are going to need the space and the equipment.

其他人将需要空间和设备。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So it could take forever.

所以这可能需要永远。

10 sets of 30, that's-

10组30个，那就是——

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Oh

噢

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

impolite.

不礼貌。

Sort of only half kidding there.

有点半开玩笑的意思。

One of the more common questions is about training for people 50 years old and older.

最常见的问题之一是关于 50 岁及以上人群的培训。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Love it.

喜欢它。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And I love the fact that we're talking so much about strength.

我喜欢我们如此多地谈论力量这一事实。

This seems to be one of the key evolutions in this field, again, in my opinion.

在我看来，这似乎又是该领域的关键演变之一。

The people who have come through this podcast as guests, Dr. Gabrielle Lyon, yourself, Andy Galpin, who now has his own podcast, "The Perform Podcast." More and more discussions about strength and training for strength for the general public-

作为嘉宾参加这个播客的人，加布里埃尔·里昂博士，你自己，安迪·加尔平，他现在有自己的播客“表演播客”。越来越多的大众关于力量和力量训练的讨论——

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Hmm

嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

not just people who want to be powerlifters.

不仅仅是那些想成为举重运动员的人。

So I think there's a lot of carryover there, and I think the more that people hear us say that resistance training can be really powerful for health and longevity, and getting strong is one of the best things you can do for your health and longevity, injury protection, et cetera.

所以我认为这有很多遗留问题，而且我认为人们越来越多地听到我们说阻力训练对健康和长寿确实非常有效，而变得强壮是你可以为健康和长寿、伤害保护等所做的最好的事情之一。

Peter Attia's talked about this, and it's not just about building muscle.

彼得·阿提亚（Peter Attia）谈到了这一点，这不仅仅是关于锻炼肌肉。

Want to know how they should adjust their training, if at all, if they are 50 and older.

想知道如果他们年满 50 岁，应该如何调整训练（如果有的话）。

So obviously, one of the key things to getting and staying in great shape over time, I always say, is avoid getting hurt.

显然，我总是说，随着时间的推移，获得并保持良好体形的关键之一就是避免受伤。

Could we say, okay, don't try anything too novel and crazy without easing into it.

我们是否可以说，好吧，不要尝试任何太新奇和疯狂的事情，而不需要放松下来。

Could we also perhaps-

我们也许也可以——

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

But I would say that goes for anybody-

但我想说这对任何人都适用——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Okay

好的

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

...

...

quite frankly.

坦白说。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Okay.

好的。

Could we also say perhaps find the movements that you can do without injury and just keep doing those over and over?

我们是否也可以说，也许找到你可以在不受伤的情况下做的动作，然后一遍又一遍地做这些动作？

Is there any evidence that mixing up the exercises is important, meaning doing new movements?

是否有任何证据表明混合练习很重要，这意味着做新的动作？

Or if you find two or three movements that work well for you, can you just stick with those and just work on progressive overload?

或者，如果您发现两三个动作对您效果很好，您可以坚持这些动作并进行渐进式超负荷训练吗？

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

I think you can stick with those.

我认为你可以坚持这些。

I think the whole concept of muscle confusion, muscle knows tension and how long it's under that tension, and for how many sets it's under that tension.

我认为肌肉混乱的整个概念是，肌肉知道张力以及它在这种张力下持续了多长时间，以及它在这种张力下进行了多少组。

It's not like, "Well, I can tell that this is an incline bench press versus an incline dumbbell." You might move through different ranges of motion and whatnot, but the tension on the muscle is the tension on the muscle.

这并不是说“好吧，我可以看出这是上斜卧推与上斜哑铃”。你可能会进行不同的运动范围之类的动作，但肌肉上的张力就是肌肉上的张力。

So what I'd say to people is, I think most people probably change up things too much.

所以我想对人们说的是，我认为大多数人可能改变太多了。

Because there is a neurological adaptation to doing a specific exercise where you get stronger at it, and so now you're using more load, you can create more mechanical tension.

因为进行特定的锻炼会产生神经适应，使您变得更强，所以现在您使用更多的负荷，可以产生更多的机械张力。

But if you're always changing things up, you might not take advantage of that full kind of neurological adaptation.

但如果你总是改变事情，你可能无法充分利用神经适应。

But if you're always doing the same exercises, it's too easy to get comfortable and fall into, "Well, today I do three sets of 10, and I always do three sets of 10, and I use this weight, and that's what I do." And now you're no longer progressively overloading.

但如果你总是做同样的练习，就很容易感到舒服并陷入“好吧，今天我做三组，每组 10 次，我总是做三组，每组 10 次，我使用这个重量，这就是我所做的。”现在你不再逐渐超负荷了。

So I think there has to be a balance between enough changing of exercises to kind of promote some novelty, because as you know, novelty, there is a reward center in the brain for that, just changing something.

所以我认为，在足够多的练习变化之间必须保持平衡，以促进一些新奇感，因为如你所知，新奇感，大脑中有一个奖励中心，只需改变一些东西即可。

And think about any time you've going to try a new workout.

并考虑一下您何时要尝试新的锻炼方式。

You get a little excited about it.

你对此感到有点兴奋。

When I was going to try Zach's way of training three years ago, I was like, "Oh," I was very, very excited about it.

三年前，当我打算尝试扎克的训练方式时，我当时就想，“哦，”我对此非常非常兴奋。

So I think there is a place for that, but I think People tend to fall into a little bit too much of doing the same thing over and over, or constantly changing things because they're always chasing that novelty.

所以我认为这是有道理的，但我认为人们倾向于一遍又一遍地做同样的事情，或者不断地改变事情，因为他们总是在追逐新奇。

And I think that the reality is probably somewhere in the middle.

我认为现实可能介于两者之间。

But specifically for over 50, I think whatever you can do with low pain level and be consistent with that you enjoy, that's what's best for you.

但特别是对于 50 岁以上的人来说，我认为无论你能做什么，只要疼痛程度较低，并且与你喜欢的事情保持一致，这就是最适合你的。

I always tell this story.

我总是讲这个故事。

I had a client who they loved CrossFit.

我有一位客户，他们喜欢 CrossFit。

They loved doing CrossFit.

他们喜欢进行 CrossFit。

And they said, "But I want to build muscle, and I know it's not the best workout for building muscle." I said, "It might be for you, because if you hate bodybuilding training, and you're not motivated to go do it, and you don't enjoy it, you're probably not going to work hard at it.

他们说，“但我想增强肌肉，而且我知道这不是增强肌肉的最佳锻炼方式。”我说：“这可能适合你，因为如果你讨厌健美训练，你没有动力去做它，你不喜欢它，你可能不会努力训练。

And so maybe for you, a CrossFit workout is the best muscle-building workout, because if I try to get you to do something else, you'd hate it and would lose motivation."

所以也许对你来说，CrossFit 锻炼是最好的增肌锻炼，因为如果我试图让你做其他事情，你会讨厌它并且会失去动力。”

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right.

对。

And it feeds back to that consistency principle that you talked about before.

它反馈到了您之前谈到的一致性原则。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Exactly.

正是如此。

So I think this might be interesting for some of your listeners.

所以我认为这对于一些听众来说可能会很有趣。

So when we look at how much muscle you can build after a certain age, you can build the same amount of muscle as a percentage of your starting skeletal muscle mass.

因此，当我们查看您在一定年龄后可以锻炼多少肌肉时，您可以锻炼与起始骨骼肌质量百分比相同的肌肉量。

Okay?

好的？

So what I mean by that is, once you're 50, 60, you've usually lost some muscle.

所以我的意思是，一旦你到了 50 岁、60 岁，你通常会失去一些肌肉。

Okay?

好的？

And if you've never lifted before, if you go in to lift, as a percentage basis, it appears that you will still gain the same amount of lean mass.

如果你以前从未举重过，如果你以百分比为基础进行举重，那么你似乎仍然会获得相同数量的瘦体重。

But for example, if somebody has 80 kilos of starting lean-- Most of your podcast listeners are USA, I assume.

但举例来说，如果某人的体重为 80 公斤，我想您的大多数播客听众都来自美国。

So let's say somebody has 150 pounds of lean mass when they start.

假设某人开始时有 150 磅的瘦体重。

Just throwing out a random number.

只是抛出一个随机数。

And they gain 10% over a couple of years.

他们在几年内上涨了 10%。

Now they have 165 pounds of lean mass.

现在他们的瘦体重为 165 磅。

They've gained 15 pounds, but the percentage is 10.

他们增加了 15 磅，但百分比是 10 磅。

If somebody starts and they have 100 and, say, 20 pounds of lean mass, 10% of that is 12 pounds.

如果有人开始时有 100 磅（比如说 20 磅）的瘦体重，那么其中 10% 就是 12 磅。

They gained an absolute less amount, but as a percentage, it was similar or same.

他们获得的金额绝对较少，但从百分比来看，却相似或相同。

And we actually see that with women, too.

事实上，我们在女性身上也看到了这一点。

Women actually develop, as a percentage of their starting lean mass, the same percentage increase in lean mass as men when they do the same level of hard training.

事实上，当女性进行相同水平的艰苦训练时，女性的瘦体重占其起始瘦体重的百分比与男性的增长百分比相同。

So what I tell people who are-- I'll hear people say, "Well, I'm too old to start resistance." No, no. Now is the perfect time to start.

所以我会告诉人们——我会听到人们说，“好吧，我太老了，不能开始抵抗了。”不，不。现在是开始的最佳时机。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Right now.

现在。

And honestly, it doesn't take a huge dose.

老实说，它不需要很大的剂量。

If you want to be getting into powerlifting and compete at competition, yeah, now it takes a bigger dose, right?

如果你想进入举重并参加比赛，是的，现在需要更大的剂量，对吗？

But what it takes to get, and I'm just going to throw a number out, 80%, the majority of the benefits for health, strength, resistance training, you could probably get in three, four sessions of 30 to 40 minutes.

但是要获得什么，我只是想给出一个数字，80%，对健康、力量、阻力训练的大部分好处，你可能可以在三、四次 30 到 40 分钟的训练中获得。

You don't have to have a huge input of time.

您不必投入大量时间。

And just look at the depression study we talked about.

看看我们谈论的抑郁症研究就知道了。

Obviously, that's not like muscle and strength, but two sessions of 25 minutes.

显然，这不像肌肉和力量，而是两次25分钟的训练。

It is an absurdly low dose that you require.

您需要的剂量低得离谱。

And I think a lot of people, I try to be careful about this, too, will see how I train, which is two, three hours a day for five days a week, and think that's what's needed.

我想很多人，我也尽量小心这一点，会看到我如何训练，每周五天，每天两三个小时，并认为这就是需要的。

No, no, I want to go win a world championship.

不，不，我想去赢得世界冠军。

That's what's needed for that.

这就是所需要的。

It's not needed for you to build muscle and get stronger.

您不需要锻炼肌肉并变得更强壮。

And even when I was at grad school, across the street, they did a study in frail elderly where they had them-- Basically, they had trouble standing up from a seated position, and by the end of a 12-week study of them progressively overloading them, which was basically them just lowering the seat at first, right?

甚至当我在街对面读研究生时，他们也对体弱的老年人进行了一项研究——基本上，他们很难从坐姿站起来，在为期 12 周的研究结束时，他们逐渐超载，基本上他们一开始只是降低座椅，对吗？

And then maybe adding a little bit of weight.

然后也许会增加一点重量。

They saw these people built muscle, built bone, got healthier, better quality of life, and these are people in their 70s.

他们看到这些人锻炼了肌肉、增强了骨骼、变得更健康、生活质量更好，而且这些人已经70多岁了。

And there was a study in Australia that actually got on the news.

澳大利亚的一项研究确实上了新闻。

Peter Attia talked about it, with elderly women who, I think they were above age 70.

Peter Attia 与老年妇女谈论过这个问题，我认为她们已经 70 岁以上了。

And there were some of them in there deadlifting like 150, upper hundreds in deadlift.

其中有一些人在进行硬拉，大约有 150 人，甚至有数百人在进行硬拉。

It's incredible how-- I took a class called Skeletal Muscle Structure, Function, and Plasticity.

令人难以置信的是，我参加了一门名为“骨骼肌结构、功能和可塑性”的课程。

Your skeletal muscle is so adaptable.

你的骨骼肌适应性很强。

It is such an adaptable tissue.

这是一种适应性很强的组织。

It's amazing.

太棒了。

The same thing that can allow somebody to squat, Jesus Olivera, shout out, squat over 1,000 pounds, is the same tissue that can allow somebody to run 100 miles, like David Goggins.

耶稣·奥利维拉（Jesus Olivera）可以让某人深蹲超过 1000 磅，而同样的组织也可以让大卫·戈金斯（David Goggins）跑 100 英里。

Think about that.

想想看。

That's really incredibly adaptive.

这真是令人难以置信的适应性。

And so what I'll tell to people, regardless of your age, your sex, whatever demographic you are in, resistance training for just a couple times a week for a short period of time will drastically improve the prospects of your quality of life, your longevity.

因此，我要告诉人们的是，无论你的年龄、性别，无论你属于什么人群，每周几次、短期的阻力训练将极大地改善你的生活质量和寿命。

If we look at hand grip strength, we look at lean mass, they're all inversely associated with mortality, especially the older you get, becomes a stronger association.

如果我们观察握力，我们观察瘦体重，它们都与死亡率成反比，尤其是随着年龄的增长，这种关联变得更强。

And I always tell people, I'm like, "It's not about the hand grip strength.

我总是告诉人们，我想，“这与握力无关。

This is a proxy for just strength overall," right?

这是整体实力的代表，”对吧？

There was a study where they looked at push-ups and found push-ups were inversely associated with mortality.

有一项研究观察了俯卧撑，发现俯卧撑与死亡率呈负相关。

It's not that doing push-ups is magic.

这并不是说做俯卧撑有魔法。

It's that that is a proxy for that person being strong.

这就是那个人坚强的代表。

And we focus so much of our attention, especially on falls in the elderly, right?

我们非常关注，尤其是老年人的跌倒，对吗？

Of, well, if they had more bone mass, they wouldn't break their bones.

当然，如果他们有更多的骨量，他们就不会骨折。

What if they didn't fall in the first place because they were strong enough and had good enough gait and balance to catch themselves?

如果他们一开始就没有摔倒，因为他们足够强壮，并且有足够好的步态和平衡能力来接住自己，该怎么办？

And oh, by the way, nothing better for increasing bone mass than resistance training.

哦，顺便说一句，没有什么比阻力训练更能增加骨量了。

So I am a huge fan.

所以我是一个超级粉丝。

And then we already talked about the metabolic.

然后我们已经讨论过新陈代谢。

Skeletal muscle, Gabrielle touched on it.

骨骼肌，加布里埃尔碰了一下。

It was one of the first things Don Layman said when I came in his lab.

这是我来到 Don Layman 实验室时说的第一句话。

He goes, "Skeletal muscle fits every definition of an organ, and we don't talk about it like an organ.

他说：“骨骼肌符合器官的所有定义，我们不会像器官一样谈论它。

We talk about it like it's this inert tissue that just sits there." And it is not.

我们谈论它就好像它只是坐在那里的惰性组织一样。”但事实并非如此。

It sends out signals to other tissues.

它向其他组织发出信号。

It integrates signals from other tissues.

它整合来自其他组织的信号。

It is an endocrine organ.

它是一个内分泌器官。

And so many people have unhealthy skeletal muscle.

而且很多人的骨骼肌都不健康。

And what happens when you resistance train?

当你进行阻力训练时会发生什么？

What happens when you build muscle?

当你锻炼肌肉时会发生什么？

Muscle is a metabolic sink.

肌肉是代谢池。

It is greedy, right?

很贪心吧？

It's sucking up.

它很糟糕。

You could take people who are type 2 diabetic, and if you get them on a slight calorie deficit, you get them to start exercising, it is incredible how fast their blood markers will start to resolve.

你可以让 2 型糖尿病患者，如果你让他们出现轻微的卡路里不足，你让他们开始锻炼，他们的血液标记物开始消退的速度令人难以置信。

They can still be obese and you'll see their blood markers start to resolve within-- You'll see improvements in weeks.

他们可能仍然肥胖，你会看到他们的血液标记物在几周内开始解决——你会看到改善。

Layman did a, I want to say, a 16-week study in either diabetic or pre-diabetic women back in 2003, I want to say.

我想说的是，Layman 早在 2003 年就对糖尿病或糖尿病前期女性进行了一项为期 16 周的研究。

And he said within four weeks, he said, "We already saw these blood markers start to resolve." Your HbA1c hasn't resolved, but a lot of these other markers start to resolve because at a fundamental level, at least in my opinion, and other metabolism people may disagree, I'm a big fan of Occam's razor, which is plainly stated, all things being equal, the simplest explanation is typically true.

他说，四个星期内，“我们已经看到这些血液标记物开始消退。”您的 HbA1c 尚未解决，但许多其他标记物开始解决，因为从根本上讲，至少在我看来，其他新陈代谢人士可能不同意，我是奥卡姆剃刀的忠实粉丝，这很简单，在所有条件相同的情况下，最简单的解释通常是正确的。

The actual hardcore scientific definition is the hypothesis that requires the least amount of assumptions is usually true.

真正的核心科学定义是需要最少假设的假设通常是正确的。

You're putting in so much energy into a system, and you're running out of places to put it.

你在一个系统中投入了如此多的能量，但你已经没有地方可以放置它了。

So you have skeletal muscle mass, you have liver, these other tissues in the periphery, and then you have adipose tissue.

所以你有骨骼肌质量，你有肝脏，周围的其他组织，然后你有脂肪组织。

And did you know they actually show people who have more adipocytes are actually more resistant to type 2 diabetes?

您是否知道它们实际上表明脂肪细胞较多的人实际上对 2 型糖尿病具有更强的抵抗力？

So they have more smaller fat cells that can soak up more of this stuff.

所以它们有更多更小的脂肪细胞，可以吸收更多的这些东西。

And since type 2 diabetes is basically too much glucose in the blood, right, and a lack of insulin sensitivity, small adipocytes are more insulin sensitive.

由于 2 型糖尿病基本上是血液中葡萄糖过多（对），并且缺乏胰岛素敏感性，因此小脂肪细胞对胰岛素更敏感。

And so what happens is, at least in adipocyte physiology, we used to think of adipose as also an inert tissue, and now we know that's not true either.

因此，至少在脂肪细胞生理学中，我们曾经认为脂肪也是一种惰性组织，但现在我们知道这也不是真的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And lots of different cell types.

还有许多不同的细胞类型。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

We used to just think that there was-

我们曾经只是认为有——

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

It's heterogeneous

这是异质的

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

brown, beige, and white fat cells and-

棕色、米色和白色脂肪细胞和-

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

There's a lot

有很多

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

subcutaneous and intravisceral.

皮下和内脏内。

Now they've done sequencing of different white fat cells and, like 25, probably now 50 different genetics among those cells that respond differently to insulin.

现在他们已经对不同的白色脂肪细胞进行了测序，这些细胞中大约有 25 个，现在可能有 50 个不同的基因，这些细胞对胰岛素的反应不同。

Fat is a very interesting and heterogeneous-

脂肪是一种非常有趣且异质的——

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

It's really interesting

真的很有趣

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

tissue.

组织。

Yeah.

是的。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

But most fat cells, at least based on the literature I've read, and again, I'm happy to have somebody correct me who's an expert in this, but they can expand to a certain point where it really becomes difficult for them to get bigger.

但大多数脂肪细胞，至少根据我读过的文献，我很高兴有人纠正我，他是这方面的专家，但它们可以扩展到某个点，在这个点上它们真的很难变大。

The integrity of the cell.

细胞的完整性。

Because you still got a cell wall, you have plasma membrane, everything, and you have an extracellular matrix that is scaffolding this fat tissue onto your body.

因为你仍然有细胞壁，你有质膜，一切，你有一个细胞外基质，将这些脂肪组织支撑在你的身体上。

And so at a certain size of adipocyte, it basically becomes that you just can't pack any more in there.

因此，当脂肪细胞达到一定大小时，基本上就无法再容纳更多脂肪细胞了。

Okay?

好的？

And so if you can't put any more in muscle because you're not active and muscle's not moving and churning through substrate, and you can't pack any more into adipose, where does it wind up?

因此，如果你因为不活跃而无法在肌肉中添加更多的东西，并且肌肉无法通过基质移动和搅动，并且你无法将更多的东西填充到脂肪中，那么它最终会去哪里呢？

It's in your blood.

它就在你的血液里。

It's interesting because there are some people who have all these theories.

这很有趣，因为有些人拥有所有这些理论。

One person, a researcher, was like, "Well, I think branched-chain amino acids actually cause insulin resistance because we see them elevated in the blood in type 2 diabetes." And I was a grad student watching this person present, and I put my hand up, I said, "Isn't everything elevated in the blood in type 2 diabetes?

一个研究人员说，“嗯，我认为支链氨基酸实际上会导致胰岛素抵抗，因为我们发现它们在 2 型糖尿病患者的血液中含量升高。”我当时是一名研究生，看着在场的这个人，我举起手说：“2 型糖尿病患者血液中的所有物质不是都升高了吗？

Why are we picking on branched-chain amino acids?" So you do have some people who can become type 2 diabetic who aren't obese.

为什么我们选择支链氨基酸？”所以确实有一些人虽然不肥胖，但也可能患上 2 型糖尿病。

They tend to have not as many fat cells, which sounds like it'd be an advantage.

他们往往没有那么多的脂肪细胞，这听起来像是一个优势。

And if you're lean or, sorry, if you are not overeating, right, and getting enough exercise in, it probably is an advantage because you have less overall fat mass.

如果你很瘦，或者抱歉，如果你没有暴饮暴食，对吧，并且进行了足够的锻炼，这可能是一个优势，因为你的整体脂肪量较少。

But you are going to reach that critical mass of an adipocyte of about 100 microns, I think it is, faster because your overall fat cell number.

但我认为，你将达到约 100 微米的脂肪细胞临界质量，因为你的脂肪细胞总数更快。

So at the same fat mass, your fat cells are bigger, and bigger fat cells are less insulin sensitive.

因此，在相同的脂肪量下，您的脂肪细胞更大，而更大的脂肪细胞对胰岛素的敏感性更低。

In fact, one of the treatments for type 2 diabetes, sulfonylureas, I think they're called, they're PPAR-gamma agonists.

事实上，2 型糖尿病的治疗方法之一是磺酰脲类药物，我认为它们是 PPAR-γ 激动剂。

They actually increase the production of fat cells.

它们实际上增加了脂肪细胞的产生。

They create new, small fat cells.

它们会产生新的小脂肪细胞。

Now you have a place to put stuff, and you lower your blood glucose.

现在你有地方放东西了，你的血糖也降低了。

So very-

所以非常-

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It's a reservoir.

这是一个水库。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Exactly.

正是如此。

And I'm overgeneralizing to be sure.

可以肯定的是，我过于笼统了。

And again, I hope if I've butchered anything, somebody will come in and correct me.

再说一次，我希望如果我有什么错误的话，有人会过来纠正我。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

They will.

他们会的。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

But what's amazing is this stuff in the blood, you just got to get stuff moving.

但令人惊奇的是，这种东西已经融入了血液，你只需让它们动起来即可。

Because you start doing exercise, start controlling your calories a little bit.

因为您开始锻炼，所以开始稍微控制卡路里。

Guess what?

你猜怎么着？

You're oxidizing things through the Krebs cycle.

你通过克雷布斯循环氧化物质。

You're going through glycolysis.

你正在经历糖酵解。

You can now start to pull things in, right?

你现在可以开始拉东西了，对吧？

You're using this substrate.

您正在使用这种基材。

You can start to pull things in.

你可以开始把东西拉进去了。

And because you're pulling things in, now adipose can start to release some of its free fatty acids into the blood-- Some of its triacylglycerides into free fatty acids into the bloodstream, which can also facilitate this muscle.

因为你把东西拉进去，现在脂肪可以开始将一些游离脂肪酸释放到血液中——一些三酰甘油转化为游离脂肪酸进入血液，这也可以促进这块肌肉。

So using muscle, it is a partitioning effect, and it doesn't take long to start lowering this glucose, blood lipids, these things in the blood.

所以用肌肉，它是一个分区作用，用不了多久就开始降低这个血糖，血脂，血液里的这些东西。

It can actually resolve, at least those markers can start resolving themselves pretty quickly, which is why when we look at weight loss, what level of weight loss they say is clinically relevant, it's only 5%.

它实际上可以解决，至少那些标记可以很快开始解决自己，这就是为什么当我们考虑减肥时，他们所说的与临床相关的减肥水平只有 5%。

Right?

正确的？

Which You'll have obese people and they'll say, well, 5% weight loss, you see these big benefits in blood lipids and metabolic health.

肥胖的人会说，体重减轻 5%，你就会看到血脂和代谢健康方面的巨大好处。

You wouldn't think with just 5% weight loss you would get that, but you do because you're just giving a little bit of space to get that stuff in the blood out.

你不会认为仅仅减轻 5% 的体重就可以达到这个效果，但你确实做到了，因为你只是给了一点空间来将血液中的这些东西排出体外。

Now, again, I want to be very clear, this is not a proven thing.

现在，我想再次澄清，这还没有得到证实。

I feel pretty strongly that this explains a lot, but again, this is my personal opinion about how these diseases develop and whatnot.

我强烈地感觉到这可以解释很多事情，但同样，这是我对这些疾病如何发展等问题的个人看法。

But I think it's relatively simple.

但我觉得还是比较简单的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Thinking about muscle as an organ, thinking about feeding muscle, we talked about that earlier.

将肌肉视为一个器官，考虑喂养肌肉，我们之前讨论过。

Thinking about moving muscle, and in particular, training for strength, resistance training of different kinds.

考虑移动肌肉，特别是力量训练、不同类型的阻力训练。

Hypertrophy, yes.

肥大，是的。

But I'm kind of giving it a little bit of a biased vote for more strength training out there across the population, really for the longevity reasons.

但我有点偏向于全民进行更多的力量训练，这实际上是出于长寿的原因。

Peter Attia has pointed out that the percentage of people who die after a fall, not because of the fall itself, but because of a hip injury or a wrist injury-

彼得·阿提亚（Peter Attia）指出，跌倒后死亡的人的百分比，不是因为跌倒本身，而是因为臀部受伤或手腕受伤——

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Injury

受伤

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

and then they go immobile or they're just not exercising as much anymore, then they get an infection and then it cascades.

然后他们变得一动不动，或者只是不再锻炼了，然后他们受到感染，然后它就会连锁反应。

In fact, I had a conversation with one of my parents recently on their 79th birthday.

事实上，我最近在我的一位父母 79 岁生日时与他们进行了交谈。

I said, "In the next five, 10 years, your biggest risk is probably going to be going down stairs or stepping off a curb."

我说：“在接下来的五年、十年里，你最大的风险可能是下楼梯或走下路边。”

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Not going up, but-

没有上升，但是——

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

as Peter's pointed out, going down.

正如彼得指出的那样，正在下降。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So that eccentric movement.

从而进行偏心运动。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Being able to sustain a fall, being able to not fall, to catch yourself, so to speak.

可以说，能够承受跌倒，能够不跌倒，能够抓住自己。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Well, and practically, you fall farther going down stairs than you do going up stairs.

嗯，实际上，下楼梯比上楼梯摔得更远。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right.

对。

Than going up.

比上去。

Exactly.

确切地。

And that pattern of falling while going down precedes a lot of infections that end up deadly, right?

这种边倒边倒的模式会导致许多最终致命的感染，对吗？

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Yep.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Hats off to Peter for really pointing out the relationship between those things, and to you for encouraging people to strength train.

向彼得真正指出了这些事情之间的关系，并向你鼓励人们进行力量训练致敬。

Also, I love the idea that I don't have to go to failure if I'm strength training, because I like training heavy.

另外，我喜欢这样的想法：如果我进行力量训练，我就不必失败，因为我喜欢大重量训练。

But the training to the point where the muscles are quaking-

但训练到肌肉颤抖的地步——

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

even though that's how I initially started training because I came up in the Mike Mentzer-

尽管这就是我最初开始训练的方式，因为我是在迈克门泽（Mike Mentzer）中出现的-

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Right

右

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

camp.

营地。

I actually find that it eats into my recovery in a way that-

事实上，我发现它会以某种方式影响我的康复——

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

maybe is a little more subtle, but meaningful nonetheless, which is that-

也许有点微妙，但仍然有意义，那就是——

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

And psychological

还有心理上的

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

I feel fatigued later in the day.

当天晚些时候我感到疲倦。

Whereas if I complete a training session where I can complete every rep, I notice I don't get into that quaking thing.

然而，如果我完成一次可以完成每一次重复的训练，我会发现我不会陷入那种颤抖的状态。

I actually have a lot of mental and physical energy later in the day.

事实上，当天晚些时候我的精神和体力都充沛。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

And it's psychologically and emotionally fatiguing as well.

而且它在心理和情感上也会让人疲劳。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Maybe this one could be kind of a brief answer, or maybe not.

也许这可以是一个简短的答案，也可能不是。

I don't know.

我不知道。

Are there true age-related changes in metabolism that are independent of-

是否存在真正与年龄相关的新陈代谢变化，且独立于-

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Oh, okay

哦，好吧

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

decline in muscle mass?

肌肉质量下降？

I saw a paper, I think it was published in "Science" a few years ago, that said that metabolism actually doesn't slow that much as we age.

我看到一篇论文，我想它发表在几年前的《科学》杂志上，说新陈代谢实际上并不会随着年龄的增长而减慢那么多。

Of course, total muscle mass-

当然，总肌肉质量——

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

So you mean BMR?

那么你是说基础代谢率（BMR）吗？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

BMR.

基础代谢率。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Okay.

好的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Basal metabolic rate.

基础代谢率。

In general, well, I should just say up until that paper came out, I thought, okay, as we get older, our quote-unquote metabolism slows.

总的来说，嗯，我应该说，直到那篇论文发表之前，我想，好吧，随着我们年龄的增长，我们的新陈代谢会减慢。

Then, of course, we have to remember that puberty and childhood is sort of like being on performance-enhancing drugs in the sense that protein synthesis is just massive and ongoing.

当然，我们必须记住，青春期和儿童期有点像服用提高成绩的药物，因为蛋白质合成是大量且持续的。

But let's just say from age 30 onward, let's say between 30 and 80, assuming that somebody's doing things to maintain muscle mass, is there any reason to believe that their basal metabolic rate actually goes down just as a function of age?

但是，从 30 岁开始，比如说 30 岁到 80 岁之间，假设某人正在做一些事情来保持肌肉质量，是否有任何理由相信他们的基础代谢率实际上随着年龄的增长而下降？

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Yeah.

是的。

You're citing the work from Herman Pontzer.

您引用了 Herman Pontzer 的著作。

And a really great lab looking at energy expenditure.

还有一个非常出色的实验室研究能量消耗。

He does a lot of great stuff.

他做了很多伟大的事情。

And so that study was looking at several thousand people, I think, looking at their total daily energy expenditure, and really found it's pretty flat from like age 20 to age 70, and then it kind of starts to go down.

我认为这项研究对数千人进行了观察，观察了他们每日的总能量消耗，确实发现从 20 岁到 70 岁，能量消耗相当平稳，然后开始下降。

But you can tie it to the loss of lean mass.

但你可以将其与瘦体重的损失联系起来。

And same thing for basal metabolic rate when they do indirect calorimetry.

当他们进行间接量热法时，基础代谢率也是如此。

So older people, also women versus men, and then also type 2 diabetics versus non-type 2 diabetics, obese versus non-obese.

因此，老年人、女性与男性、2 型糖尿病患者与非 2 型糖尿病患者、肥胖与非肥胖患者。

I think the number is over 80% of the variance in BMR is completely explained by the lean mass, by the amount of lean mass somebody has.

我认为这个数字超过 80% 的 BMR 差异完全是由瘦体重、某人的瘦体重数量来解释的。

And by the way, the last 20% probably is explained by where that lean mass occurs.

顺便说一句，最后 20% 可能是由瘦体重发生的位置来解释的。

Because liver, for example, is a more metabolically active tissue, gram per gram, than pretty much any other tissue.

因为例如，肝脏是一种比几乎任何其他组织代谢更活跃的组织（每克）。

Skeletal muscle is more metabolically active than fat tissue, but for a lean tissue, is actually somewhat metabolically slow because its turnover rate is only like 1%, 2% per day.

骨骼肌的代谢比脂肪组织更活跃，但对于瘦肉组织来说，实际上代谢有点慢，因为它的周转率只有每天 1%、2% 左右。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You just have a lot of it.

你只是拥有很多而已。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Right.

正确的。

But on an absolute amount of calories you burn, you burn a lot in muscle because you have so much of it.

但就你燃烧的卡路里的绝对量而言，你会燃烧大量的肌肉，因为你有太多的肌肉。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right.

对。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Great point.

很棒的一点。

So things like gut, liver tissues, per gram of tissue, are very active.

因此，每克组织中的肠道、肝脏组织都非常活跃。

So yeah, for a long time, we spent so much time focused on the metabolism side of things when we're looking at aging, when we're looking at obesity, and we just didn't really find impressive stuff.

所以，是的，很长一段时间以来，当我们研究衰老、肥胖时，我们花了很多时间关注事物的新陈代谢方面，但我们并没有真正找到令人印象深刻的东西。

So obese people don't have slower metabolisms on average.

因此，肥胖者的平均新陈代谢速度并不慢。

The research shows that actually, on an absolute basis, they're faster than people who are normal weight.

研究表明，实际上，从绝对意义上讲，他们比正常体重的人跑得更快。

When you standardize for lean mass, it ends up being about the same.

当你对瘦体重进行标准化时，最终结果大致相同。

People who are type 2 diabetic, same thing.

2 型糖尿病患者也是如此。

When you standardize for lean mass, if anything, they have a little bit faster BMR.

当你标准化瘦体重时，如果有的话，他们的基础代谢率要快一些。

And so if you think about it, it actually kind of makes a little bit of sense on a biochemical level because if you're insulin resistant, you're also insulin resistant in fat tissue, right?

所以如果你仔细想想，它实际上在生化水平上有点道理，因为如果你有胰岛素抵抗，那么你的脂肪组织也会有胰岛素抵抗，对吗？

So it makes sense that maybe you waste some more energy because you're not able to put it where you want to put it.

因此，也许您浪费了更多能量，因为您无法将其放在您想要放置的地方，这是有道理的。

People get upset about this because they're like, "Oh, no, it's got to be metabolism." And then GLP-1 mimetics have really kind of shown No, the answer to this question is very much on the appetite side of things.

人们对此感到不安，因为他们会想，“哦，不，这一定是新陈代谢。”然后 GLP-1 模拟物确实显示出不，这个问题的答案很大程度上是在食欲方面。

We tried to make a bunch of different drugs that would increase metabolism.

我们尝试制造一系列不同的药物来促进新陈代谢。

We tried to do all these things to increase metabolism, and nothing seemed to really make a big difference.

我们尝试做所有这些事情来增加新陈代谢，但似乎没有什么能真正产生很大的改变。

And then we came out with the most powerful appetite suppressants in the history of mankind, and people are losing large amounts of weight and keeping it off.

然后我们推出了人类历史上最强大的食欲抑制剂，人们正在大量减肥并保持体重。

So I think people got too focused on that metabolism side or what I hear a lot of is from post-menopausal women, I'll hear somebody say, "My metabolism dropped." What probably happened, you're sleeping less, you're more stressed, you don't feel as good because the hormonal changes.

所以我认为人们过于关注新陈代谢方面，或者我听到很多来自绝经后女性的声音，我会听到有人说，“我的新陈代谢下降了。”可能发生的情况是，你的睡眠时间减少了，你的压力更大了，你感觉不太好，因为荷尔蒙发生了变化。

You don't feel as good, and so you spontaneously became less physically active and didn't realize it.

你感觉不太好，所以你自然而然地变得不那么活跃，而自己却没有意识到。

Because our NEAT, like our non-exercise activity thermogenesis, our non-purposeful physical activity that we do, fidgeting, pacing, is actually a large portion of our daily energy expenditure.

因为我们的 NEAT，就像我们的非运动活动产热一样，我们所做的无目的身体活动（坐立不安、踱步）实际上占了我们日常能量消耗的很大一部分。

And people get this wrong.

人们误解了这一点。

You can't make yourself do more NEAT because then it's just exercise.

你不能让自己做得更整洁，因为那样就只是锻炼而已。

If you're purposely doing it, it's exercise.

如果你有目的地这样做，那就是锻炼。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Bouncing your knee.

弹起你的膝盖。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

It's all subconscious, right?

这都是潜意识的，对吧？

But if you're not sleeping as well and you're feeling worse, spontaneously, you'll just not move as much.

但如果你的睡眠质量不佳并且你自然而然地感觉更糟，你就会减少运动量。

And I know that feels like there's a lot of judgment and shame associated with that, but it is the truth.

我知道这让人感觉有很多与之相关的评判和羞耻，但这是事实。

It is a practical limitation, and it may not be metabolism.

这是一个实际限制，而且可能不是新陈代谢。

I guess I'm a little bit pedantic with that, but it still contributes to your overall energy expenditure.

我想我对此有点迂腐，但它仍然会增加你的整体能量消耗。

And so, again, they've looked at this, and there is some evidence that if your estrogen drops and you replace that with supplemental estrogen, that that can help out with maybe 50 to 100 calorie energy expenditure per day, so if you're replacing something that's now clinically low.

因此，他们再次对此进行了研究，并且有一些证据表明，如果您的雌激素下降并且您用补充雌激素替代，那么每天可能会减少 50 到 100 卡路里的能量消耗，所以如果您正在更换目前临床上较低的东西。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But my guess is that it would also drive more activity.

但我的猜测是，这也会推动更多的活动。

Feeling better, more activity-

感觉更好，活动更多——

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

So that's-

所以那就是——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

sleeping better, more activity

睡得更好，活动更多

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

...

...

and that's where it's hard to disconnect that, right?

这就是很难断开连接的地方，对吧？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

So yeah.

所以是的。

I think metabolism-wise, the results ended up being pretty underwhelming for all this stuff that we just assumed, well, if somebody's overweight, it's because of their slow metabolism.

我认为从新陈代谢的角度来看，对于我们刚刚假设的所有这些东西来说，结果最终相当平淡，如果有人超重，那是因为他们的新陈代谢缓慢。

The research didn't pan that out, but I still think it was very interesting.

这项研究并没有证明这一点，但我仍然认为它非常有趣。

And again, it speaks to the power of the mind and the connection in the mind of how some of these drugs act.

再次，它讲述了心灵的力量以及其中一些药物如何发挥作用的心灵联系。

But I do tell people when they say, "Well, calorie deficit didn't work for me, and obviously, my metabolism was messed up because I had to get on Ozempic to lose weight." I'm like, "Well, it doesn't really do anything to metabolism, like the speed of your metabolism." What happened is you no longer mindlessly snack.

但当人们说“嗯，卡路里不足对我不起作用，而且显然，我的新陈代谢很混乱，因为我必须服用 Ozempic 来减肥”时，我确实会告诉他们。我想，“嗯，它对新陈代谢没有任何影响，比如你的新陈代谢速度。”发生的事情是你不再盲目地吃零食。

You are now in touch with your satiety signals, and that's why you're losing weight, and that's why these drugs, they work.

你现在接触到了你的饱腹感信号，这就是你减肥的原因，这就是这些药物起作用的原因。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

All right.

好吧。

So speaking of Ozempic, Mounjaro, and similar, let's talk about these drugs that are reducing appetite.

说到 Ozempic、Mounjaro 等类似药物，我们来谈谈这些降低食欲的药物。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And in fairness, have allowed millions of people to lose substantial amounts of weight and keep it off.

公平地说，它已经让数百万人大量减肥并保持体重。

This topic tends to get people a little bit riled up on social media because I think for some reason, people believe that if one gives these drugs the nod, you're essentially saying you don't need to exercise.

这个话题往往会让人们在社交媒体上有点愤怒，因为我认为出于某种原因，人们相信，如果有人认可这些药物，那么你本质上是在说你不需要锻炼。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But I didn't see anywhere or hear anywhere that the use of any compound, drug or otherwise, is mutually exclusive with taking good care of oneself in other ways, too.

但我没有在任何地方看到或听到任何化合物、药物或其他方式的使用与以其他方式照顾好自己是相互排斥的。

So what are your thoughts on these compounds and what you're seeing out there?

那么您对这些化合物有何看法以及您所看到的情况？

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

I think my take is pretty balanced on this, which is, I think they appear to be great tools for people reducing their intake and reducing body fat, and it functions through appetite.

我认为我对此的看法相当平衡，也就是说，我认为它们似乎是人们减少摄入量和减少体内脂肪的好工具，并且它通过食欲发挥作用。

These drugs are GLP-1 mimetics, and so GLP-1 is a hormone secreted by the gut in response to feeding, and it acts on the gut as well as the brain to reduce appetite, slow motility.

这些药物是 GLP-1 模拟物，因此 GLP-1 是肠道响应进食而分泌的一种激素，它作用于肠道和大脑，降低食欲、减慢运动速度。

So it's a satiety hormone, essentially.

所以它本质上是一种饱腹感激素。

Now, it has a very short half-life in the body, so the reason a lot of people will come out and say, "Well, there's things you can do naturally to increase your GLP-1." This is like talking about, yes, a BB gun fires a projectile and a tank fires a projectile, but there's a pretty big difference, right?

现在，它在体内的半衰期非常短，因此很多人会出来说，“好吧，你可以自然地做一些事情来增加你的 GLP-1。”这就像在谈论，是的，BB枪发射弹丸，坦克发射弹丸，但有很大的区别，对吧？

So with GLP-1 mimetics, what's happening is they are taking that protein and changing out some of the amino acids in that protein, and it basically just gives a much longer half-life.

因此，对于 GLP-1 模拟物，发生的事情是他们提取该蛋白质并改变该蛋白质中的一些氨基酸，它基本上只是提供了更长的半衰期。

That's why people can take it once a week or whatever it is, because it just stays around much longer.

这就是为什么人们可以每周服用一次或无论什么时间服用它，因为它只会停留更长时间。

And so if you think about the food environment we live in, which is free access to cheap, hyper-palatable foods, our brains, for the most part, are probably not equipped to regulate appetite in that environment.

因此，如果你想想我们生活的食物环境，可以免费获得廉价、美味的食物，那么我们的大脑在很大程度上可能没有能力在这种环境下调节食欲。

And it really actually is kind of incredible how resilient the human body is, because if you look at when the obesity crisis started, we already had ultra-processed foods available.

人体的恢复能力确实令人难以置信，因为如果你看看肥胖危机开始的时候，我们就已经有了超加工食品。

We had cakes, cookies, all these sorts of things.

我们有蛋糕、饼干，所有这些东西。

But the difference was you had to go to the bakery and get it, or there had to be some small barrier, right?

但不同的是你必须去面包店买，或者必须有一些小障碍，对吧？

And then I think kind of the barrier that got flipped was basically now, in the last 30 years, you can go anywhere and get access to cheap, ultra-processed, hyper-palatable, calorically dense foods.

然后我认为基本上已经打破的障碍是现在，在过去的 30 年里，你可以去任何地方并获得廉价的、超加工的、超美味的、热量密集的食物。

And they just don't have the same effect on satiety that normal food does, where like in Kevin Hall's study at NIH, where they took people from a minimally processed diet and switched them to an ultra-processed diet, and they spontaneously increased their caloric intake by 500 calories a day, overnight.

而且它们对饱腹感的影响与普通食物不同，就像 NIH 的 Kevin Hall 的研究一样，他们让人们从最低限度加工的饮食转向超加工的饮食，他们在一夜之间每天自发地增加了 500 卡路里的热量摄入。

That may sound like not a big deal to some people listening.

对于某些听的人来说，这听起来似乎没什么大不了的。

That is a very big deal.

这是一件大事。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It's about a pound per week of increase in body weight.

体重每周增加约一磅。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Assuming.

假设。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Assuming that there's no increase in energy expenditure, which we know happens over time.

假设能量消耗没有增加，我们知道这种情况会随着时间的推移而增加。

But With these GLP-1 mimetics, they're slowing down motility, they're acting on the hypothalamus, they're reducing appetite, and it's a very powerful effect.

但这些 GLP-1 模拟物会减慢运动速度，作用于下丘脑，降低食欲，这是一种非常强大的作用。

Now, some of the side effects are nausea.

现在，一些副作用是恶心。

Some people reported a not freezing, but a too slow motility, essentially.

有些人报告说，本质上不是冻结，而是运动太慢。

So there's some GI side effects which are to be expected with something like this.

因此，像这样的东西会产生一些胃肠道副作用，这是可以预料的。

And on one side, you've got-- It's so funny how everything gets politicized these days.

一方面，现在一切都变得政治化真是太有趣了。

But on one side, you've got people saying, "Oh, these drugs have no side effects whatsoever," and, "Heck, I think everybody should be on GLP-1s because they were not made to live in this food environment." And then on the other side, you've got people saying, "Well, this just obliterates the need for hard work, and these people don't take accountability." And I don't really think either of those messages are really useful.

但一方面，人们会说，“哦，这些药物没有任何副作用”，并且，“哎呀，我认为每个人都应该服用 GLP-1，因为它们不适合生活在这种食物环境中。”另一方面，有人说：“好吧，这只是消除了努力工作的需要，而且这些人不承担责任。”我真的认为这些信息都没有真正有用。

I think there's a lot of nuance here.

我认为这里有很多细微差别。

And it's a drug, and every drug is going to have side effects, some worse than others for different people.

它是一种药物，每种药物都会有副作用，对于不同的人来说，有些副作用比其他药物更严重。

And so for some people, it's not going to make sense to take it based on their lifestyle and side effects they get.

因此，对于某些人来说，根据他们的生活方式和副作用来服用它是没有意义的。

But for other people, I did a post on this where I talked about how much weight people lose on average, and so many people in the comments said, "I've lost 100 pounds," or, "I've lost 80 pounds," or whatever it is.

但对于其他人，我在这方面发了一篇帖子，讨论了人们平均减掉了多少体重，很多人在评论中说，“我减掉了 100 磅”，或者“我减掉了 80 磅”，或者其他什么。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Taking Mounjaro or Ozempic.

服用 Mounjaro 或 Ozempic。

Dr. Layne Norton:

莱恩·诺顿博士：

Yeah, one of these GLP-1 mimetics.

是的，其中一种 GLP-1 模拟物。

And again, going back to our conversation of big rocks.

再次回到我们关于大石头的谈话。

People worry about lean mass loss.

人们担心瘦体重的损失。

They worry about-- There was a study in, I think, rodents, where they saw an increase in thyroid, I want to say thyroid cancer or something like that, but it was at not really a physiological dose and again, it's rodents.

他们担心——我想，有一项针对啮齿动物的研究，他们发现甲状腺有所增加，我想说的是甲状腺癌或类似的东西，但它并不是真正的生理剂量，而且是啮齿动物。

People say, "Well, we don't know what the long-term effects of these drugs are." Well, they've actually been around for diabetes treatment for a couple of decades now.

人们说：“好吧，我们不知道这些药物的长期影响是什么。”事实上，它们用于糖尿病治疗已经有几十年了。

But do we know what they do in 50 years?

但我们知道50年后他们会做什么吗？

I guess not, but we know what obesity does.

我想不是，但我们知道肥胖会带来什么。

So, I'm going to take Ron White's line, which is, "Shoot the alligator closest to the boat." I think if somebody's very overweight or obese and they've tried a bunch of different methods and people say, "Well, they just haven't been consistent." Okay, so we can live in fantasy land, or we can live in the real world, which is maybe some people just need some more training wheels than other people, okay?

所以，我要采纳罗恩·怀特的台词，即“射杀最靠近船的鳄鱼。”我认为如果有人非常超重或肥胖，并且他们尝试了很多不同的方法，人们会说：“好吧，他们只是不一致。”好吧，我们可以生活在幻想世界，也可以生活在现实世界，也许有些人只是需要比其他人更多的辅助轮，好吗？

If we could stop putting an ethical judgment on how easy or hard it is for certain people to do certain things.

如果我们能够停止对某些人做某些事情的难易程度做出道德判断。

It's easy for me to say, "Just be consistent," because nutrition has never been a problem for me.

我很容易说：“保持一致”，因为营养对我来说从来都不是问题。

I've never struggled with my weight, but I struggled in other areas of my life that why can't I just be more consistent?

我从来没有为自己的体重而挣扎，但我在生活的其他方面也很挣扎，为什么我不能更加稳定呢？

Why can't I just do the things I know I need to do?

为什么我不能只做我知道我需要做的事情？

I'm sure you would feel the same way about certain things in your life, where it's like, well, I know logically what to do, but it's hard for me to do it, right?

我相信你对生活中的某些事情也会有同样的感觉，就像，好吧，我从逻辑上知道该怎么做，但对我来说很难做到，对吧？

And so if we look at the burden on the healthcare system of obesity and these type 2 diabetes, and then all the metabolic diseases associated with them, it's hard for me to imagine a scenario where this is not a big net positive, to be quite frank.

因此，如果我们看看肥胖和这些 2 型糖尿病以及所有与之相关的代谢疾病对医疗保健系统造成的负担，坦率地说，我很难想象这不是一个巨大的净积极影响的情况。

Now, as my friend John Delony says, "It's both and." Okay?

现在，正如我的朋友约翰·德洛尼（John Delony）所说，“两者都是并且”。好的？

Some people, this is really going to help them, and it should be done in concert with lifestyle changes and lifestyle education.

对于某些人来说，这确实会对他们有帮助，并且应该与生活方式的改变和生活方式教育结合起来。

Because we don't want people to go from eating a lot of a crappy diet to a little of a crappy diet, right?

因为我们不希望人们从吃大量蹩脚饮食变成吃一点蹩脚饮食，对吗？

We want them to make better choices overall.

我们希望他们总体上做出更好的选择。

But sometimes, again, habit coupling, people don't get motivated and then get results.

但有时候，由于习惯的耦合，人们没有动力，也没有取得成果。

People start getting results and then get motivated, right?

人们开始取得成果，然后就会受到激励，对吗？

And so a lot of times, people will start losing weight, and now they're motivated to go to the gym.

所以很多时候，人们会开始减肥，现在他们有动力去健身房。

They're motivated to eat better.

他们有动力吃得更好。

It doesn't happen in a linear path.

它不会发生在线性路径中。

These things are the opposite of a vicious cycle, where you're getting into a good cycle, right?

这些事情与恶性循环相反，你正在进入一个良性循环，对吗？

And a lot of people tend to fall into these categories where when things go bad, they go really bad because it's a vicious cycle.

很多人往往属于这样的类别，当事情变坏时，他们会变得非常糟糕，因为这是一个恶性循环。

When things go well, they go really well because it's a good cycle.

当事情进展顺利时，它们会进展得非常顺利，因为这是一个良好的循环。

And so what I would say is, with the concerns about GLP-1s, the one I hear most is loss of lean mass.

所以我想说的是，对于 GLP-1 的担忧，我听到最多的就是瘦体重的损失。

So in studies, people who use GLP-1 mimetics, they lose 30% to 40% of the weight from lean mass, which is a concern.

因此，在研究中，使用 GLP-1 模拟物的人会因瘦体重而减轻 30% 至 40% 的体重，这是一个令人担忧的问题。

But by the way, that is similar to the amount of weight from lean mass people lose who diet without resistance training or exercise.

但顺便说一句，这与人们在没有进行抗阻训练或运动的情况下节食而失去的瘦体重相似。

So I don't think that it's a unique problem to GLP-1s.

所以我不认为这对于 GLP-1 来说是一个独特的问题。

And my guess is when we start getting studies that combine exercise with GLP-1s and look at lean mass retention, we'll probably see pretty similar results.

我的猜测是，当我们开始进行将运动与 GLP-1 结合起来并观察瘦体重保留的研究时，我们可能会看到非常相似的结果。

So I'm not super worried about that.

所以我对此并不非常担心。

On a practical level, I can see some concern with it because if you don't have much appetite, you're usually not selecting protein as your first line of what you're going to pick.

在实践层面上，我可以看到一些担忧，因为如果你没有太多胃口，你通常不会选择蛋白质作为你要选择的第一行。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：