Dr. Layne Norton: The Science of Eating for Health, Fat Loss & Lean Muscle

Today, my guest is Dr. Layne Norton.

今天，我的客人是莱恩·诺顿博士。

Dr. Norton is one of the foremost experts in protein metabolism, fat loss, and nutrition.

诺顿博士是蛋白质代谢、减脂和营养领域最重要的专家之一。

He did his degrees in biochemistry and nutritional sciences and is considered one of the world experts in understanding how we extract energy from our food and how exercise and what we eat combine to impact things like body composition and overall health.

他获得了生物化学和营养科学学位，被认为是了解我们如何从食物中提取能量以及运动和饮食如何结合影响身体成分和整体健康等方面的世界专家之一。

Today, we discuss an enormous number of topics under the umbrella of nutrition and fitness, including, for instance, what is energy balance?

今天，我们在营养和健身的框架下讨论大量主题，例如，什么是能量平衡？

That is, how do we actually extract energy from our food?

也就是说，我们实际上如何从食物中提取能量？

We also discuss the somewhat controversial topic of artificial sweeteners, whether or not they are safe or not and whether or not they are an effective tool for weight loss, in particular, for people suffering from obesity and different types of diabetes.

我们还讨论了人工甜味剂这个颇有争议的话题，无论它们是否安全，以及它们是否是减肥的有效工具，特别是对于患有肥胖症和不同类型糖尿病的人来说。

We also talk about gut health-- that is the gut microbiome-- and how it's impacted by food and how it can actually impact the metabolism of the foods that we eat.

我们还讨论肠道健康——即肠道微生物群——以及它如何受到食物的影响，以及它如何真正影响我们所吃食物的新陈代谢。

We also discuss fasting, or so-called intermittent fasting or time-restricted feeding, what it does and what it does not do in terms of how effective it is for weight loss and, perhaps, even for health and longevity.

我们还讨论禁食，或所谓的间歇性禁食或限时进食，它的作用和不作用，以及它对减肥甚至健康和长寿的有效性。

We also talk about protein and define very clearly how much protein each and all of us need, depending on our daily activities and life demands.

我们还讨论蛋白质，并根据我们的日常活动和生活需求，非常清楚地定义我们每个人需要多少蛋白质。

We discuss the various types of diets that you've probably heard about, including ketogenic diets, vegan diets, vegetarian diets, and pure carnivore diets, as well as more typical omnivore diets, and how to make sure that you get all of the essential amino acids that are critical for healthy weight maintenance, weight loss, or directed muscle gain.

我们讨论您可能听说过的各种类型的饮食，包括生酮饮食、纯素饮食、素食和纯肉食性饮食，以及更典型的杂食性饮食，以及如何确保您获得对健康体重维持、减肥或定向增肌至关重要的所有必需氨基酸。

We also talk about supplements, in particular, the supplements for which there is an immense amount of science pointing to their safety and efficacy for fitness and for overall body composition.

我们还谈论补充剂，特别是有大量科学表明其对健身和整体身体成分的安全性和有效性的补充剂。

What I'm sure will become clear to you, as you hear Layne talk about each and every one of these topics, is that he has an incredible ability to both understand the mechanistic science but also the real world applications of the various discoveries that are made in particular papers and, in particular, in the randomized controlled trials.

当您听到莱恩谈论这些主题中的每一个主题时，我确信您会清楚地知道，他具有令人难以置信的能力，既理解机械科学，又理解特定论文中，特别是随机对照试验中的各种发现的现实世界应用。

That is when a given scientific hypothesis has been raised.

这时就提出了特定的科学假设。

He's extremely good at understanding why it was raised but also at evaluating whether or not it works in the real world, which is what I believe most everybody out there is concerned with.

他非常善于理解它为何被提出，而且也善于评估它在现实世界中是否有效，这是我相信大多数人都关心的问题。

I think this is one of the things that really distinguishes him from the other voices in the nutritional landscape.

我认为这是他与营养领域其他声音真正不同的地方之一。

I assure you that by the end of today's discussion, you will have a much clearer understanding about what the science says about nutrition, about fitness, and about how different diets and fitness programs combine to achieve the results that you want.

我向您保证，在今天的讨论结束时，您将对营养、健身的科学说法以及如何结合不同的饮食和健身计划来实现您想要的结果有更清晰的了解。

Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.

在开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。

It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public.

然而，我的愿望和努力的一部分是向公众提供有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本消费者信息。

In keeping with that theme, I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast.

为了与这个主题保持一致，我要感谢今天播客的赞助商。

Our first sponsor is LMNT.

我们的第一个赞助商是LMNT。

LMNT is an electrolyte drink with everything you need and nothing that you don't.

LMNT 是一种电解质饮料，包含您需要的一切，没有您不需要的东西。

That means it contains sodium, potassium, and magnesium, the so-called electrolytes, but no sugar.

这意味着它含有钠、钾和镁，即所谓的电解质，但不含糖。

As you may have heard me discuss before on this podcast, every cell in our body, and in particular cells within our brain, the so-called neurons or nerve cells, critically rely on the presence of electrolytes-- sodium, magnesium, and potassium-- in order to function properly.

正如您之前可能在这个播客中听到我讨论过的那样，我们体内的每个细胞，特别是大脑中的细胞，即所谓的神经元或神经细胞，都严重依赖电解质（钠、镁和钾）的存在才能正常运作。

I, myself, am a big believer in consuming electrolytes any time I've been sweating a lot, so that could be after during exercise or after doing the sauna.

我本人坚信在大量出汗时应该补充电解质，因此可能是在运动后或桑拿后。

So by drinking electrolytes in the form of LMNT electrolyte mix, I'm able to replenish those electrolytes and maintain mental clarity and energy throughout the day.

因此，通过饮用 LMNT 电解质混合物形式的电解质，我能够补充这些电解质并保持一整天的思维清晰和精力充沛。

LMNT contains a science back to electrolyte ratio of 1,000 milligrams of sodium, 200 milligrams of potassium, and 60 milligrams of magnesium.

LMNT 含有 1,000 毫克钠、200 毫克钾和 60 毫克镁的科学回电解质比例。

If you'd like to try an LMNT, you can go to drinklmnt-- spelled L-M-N-T-- .com/huberman to get a free sample pack with your purchase.

如果您想尝试 LMNT，可以访问 Drinklmnt（拼写为 L-M-N-T--.com/huberman），在购买时获得免费样品包。

Again, that's drinkL-M-N-T.com/huberman to get the free sample pack.

再次强调，请访问 DrinkL-M-N-T.com/huberman 获取免费样品包。

Today's, episode is also brought to us by ROKA.

今天的节目也是由ROKA给我们带来的。

ROKA makes eyeglasses and sunglasses that are of the absolute highest quality.

ROKA 生产绝对最高品质的眼镜和太阳镜。

The company was founded by two all-American swimmers from Stanford.

该公司由两名来自斯坦福大学的全美游泳运动员创立。

And everything about ROKA eyeglasses and sunglasses were designed with performance in mind.

ROKA 眼镜和太阳镜的所有设计均以性能为考量。

I've spent a lifetime working on the biology, the visual system, and I can tell you that your visual system has to contend with an enormous number of challenges in order for you to see clearly, for instance, when you move from a sunny area to a shady area and back again, whether or not you're looking at something up close or often to the distance.

我花了一生的时间研究生物学和视觉系统，我可以告诉你，为了让你看得清楚，你的视觉系统必须应对大量的挑战，例如，当你从阳光明媚的地方移动到阴暗的地方然后再回来时，无论你是在近距离还是经常在远处看东西。

ROKA understands the biology of the visual system and has designed their eyeglasses and sunglasses accordingly so you always see with perfect clarity.

ROKA 了解视觉系统的生物学原理，并相应地设计了眼镜和太阳镜，让您始终拥有完美的清晰度。

ROKA eyeglasses and sunglasses were initially designed for activities such as running and cycling.

ROKA 眼镜和太阳镜最初是为跑步和骑自行车等活动而设计的。

And indeed, they are very lightweight.

事实上，它们非常轻。

Most of the time, I can't even remember that they're on my face.

大多数时候，我什至不记得它们在我脸上。

They're so lightweight.

它们非常轻。

But the important thing to know about ROKA eyeglasses and sunglasses is that while they can be used during sports activities, they also have a terrific aesthetic and they can be used just as well for wearing to work or out to dinner, et cetera.

但关于 ROKA 眼镜和太阳镜，需要了解的重要一点是，虽然它们可以在体育活动中使用，但它们也具有出色的美感，并且也可以在上班或外出就餐等场合佩戴。

If you'd like to try ROKA eyeglasses and sunglasses, you can go to roka-- that's R-O-K-A-- .com and enter the code Huberman to save 20% off on your first order.

如果您想尝试 ROKA 眼镜和太阳镜，您可以访问 roka（即 R-O-K-A--.com）并输入代码 Huberman，首次订单可享受 20% 的折扣。

Again, that's roka-- R-O-K-A-- .com and enter the code Huberman at checkout.

同样，这是 roka-- R-O-K-A-- .com，并在结账时输入代码 Huberman。

Today's episode is also brought to us by InsideTracker.

今天的节目也是由 InsideTracker 为我们带来的。

InsideTracker is a personalized nutrition program that analyzes data from your blood and DNA to help you better understand your body and help you reach your health goals.

InsideTracker 是一项个性化营养计划，可分析您的血液和 DNA 数据，帮助您更好地了解自己的身体并帮助您实现健康目标。

Now, I've long been a believer in getting regular blood work done for the simple reason that many of the factors that impact your immediate and long-term health can only be analyzed with a quality blood test.

现在，我长期以来一直相信定期进行血液检查，原因很简单，影响您当前和长期健康的许多因素只能通过高质量的血液测试来分析。

One of the major issues with a lot of blood and DNA tests out there, however, is that you get information back about levels of hormones, levels of lipids, levels of metabolic factors, but you don't know what to do about that information.

然而，大量血液和 DNA 测试的主要问题之一是，您获得有关激素水平、脂质水平、代谢因子水平的信息，但您不知道如何处理这些信息。

With InsideTracker, they have an easy-to-use platform that allows you to assess those levels and then determine what sorts of behavioral changes and nutritional changes, maybe, even supplementation changes you might want to make in order to bring those numbers into the ranges that are optimal for you.

借助 InsideTracker，他们拥有一个易于使用的平台，可让您评估这些水平，然后确定您可能需要进行哪些行为改变和营养变化，甚至可能需要进行补充剂改变，以使这些数字达到最适合您的范围。

If you'd like to try InsideTracker, you can go to insidetracker.com/huberman to get 20% off any of InsideTrackers plans.

如果您想尝试 InsideTracker，您可以访问 insidetracker.com/huberman，享受任何 InsideTrackers 计划 20% 的折扣。

Again, that's insidetracker.com/huberman to get 20% off.

同样，在 insidetracker.com/huberman 上可以获得 20% 的折扣。

The Huberman Lab podcast is now partnered with Momentous supplements.

Huberman Lab 播客现已与 Momentous 补充剂合作。

To find the supplements we discuss on the Huberman Lab podcast, you can go to livemomentous-- spelled O-U-S-- livemomentous.com/huberman.

要查找我们在 Huberman Lab 播客上讨论的补充剂，您可以访问 livemomentous（拼写为 O-U-S）livemomentous.com/huberman。

And I should just mention that the library of those supplements is constantly expanding.

我只想提一下，这些补充品的库正在不断扩大。

Again, that's livemomentous.com/huberman.

再说一遍，这是 livemomentous.com/huberman。

And now, for my discussion with Dr. Layne Norton.

现在，我将与莱恩·诺顿博士进行讨论。

Layne, Dr. Norton, thank you so much for being here.

莱恩、诺顿博士，非常感谢你们来到这里。

This is a long time coming.

这是一个很长的时间。

And I have to say, I'm really excited because I've seen you in the social media sphere.

我不得不说，我真的很兴奋，因为我在社交媒体领域看到了你。

I've also listened to a number of your other podcasts.

我还听过您的一些其他播客。

And as a fellow PhD scientist, I feel a great kinship with you.

作为一名博士科学家，我对你怀有深厚的感情。

I know you have tremendous experience in fitness and nutrition, a number of areas.

我知道您在健身和营养等多个领域拥有丰富的经验。

We also got a lot of questions from our audience.

我们还从观众那里收到了很多问题。

And I'm really looking forward to talking with you today.

我真的很期待今天与您交谈。

I did a post about artificial sweeteners, which we will talk about a little bit later in the episode, and Layne pointed out some areas of the study that I had missed or, maybe, even misunderstood.

我发表了一篇关于人工甜味剂的文章，我们将在本集稍后讨论，莱恩指出了我错过的、甚至可能误解的研究领域。

And I revised my opinions and I think it's wonderful.

我修改了我的意见，我认为这很棒。

And other studies have come out since then.

从那时起，其他研究也相继出现。

So hopefully, our conversation will serve as a message of how science and actionable science can be perceived and that it doesn't always have to be a battle.

因此，希望我们的对话能够传达出这样的信息：如何看待科学和可操作的科学，并且它并不总是一场战斗。

But hey, if we get into it, we get into it.

但是，嘿，如果我们参与其中，我们就会参与其中。

It won't get physical because we know you would win.

不会发生身体对抗，因为我们知道你会赢。

So in any case, I'd like to start with something that's rather basic and yet can be pretty complex, and that's this issue of energy balance and energy utilization.

所以无论如何，我想从一些相当基本但也可能相当复杂的问题开始，这就是能量平衡和能源利用的问题。

I think most people have heard of a calorie.

我想大多数人都听说过卡路里。

I am assuming that most people don't actually know what that is in terms of how it works, what it represents.

我假设大多数人实际上并不知道它是什么、它是如何工作的、它代表什么。

And so maybe you could just explain for people what happens when we eat food, of any kind, and how is that actually converted into energy, as a way of framing up the discussion around weight loss, weight maintenance, weight gain, and body composition.

因此，也许你可以向人们解释当我们吃任何种类的食物时会发生什么，以及这些食物实际上是如何转化为能量的，以此作为围绕减肥、体重维持、体重增加和身体成分的讨论的一种方式。

So let's deal with what you mentioned first.

那么我们先来处理一下你提到的事情。

What is the calorie?

卡路里是多少？

Because I think a lot of people don't quite understand this.

因为我觉得很多人不太明白这一点。

So a calorie just refers to a unit of energy, of heat specifically.

因此，卡路里只是指能量单位，特别是热量单位。

And so what does that have to do with food?

那么这与食物有什么关系呢？

What does that have to do with what we digest and eat?

这与我们消化和吃的东西有什么关系？

Really, what you're talking about is the potential chemical energy that is in the bonds of the macronutrients of food.

实际上，你所说的是食物中大量营养素键中的潜在化学能。

And by digesting, assimilating, and metabolizing those nutrients, we are able to create energy and the in-product of that, mostly, is ATP, adenosine triphosphate, which is your body's energy currency.

通过消化、同化和代谢这些营养物质，我们能够产生能量，其产物主要是 ATP（三磷酸腺苷），它是人体的能量货币。

So to understand ATP, just try to think about-- if you're trying to power these various reactions in your body-- and we're talking about tens of thousands of enzymes that require ATP-- it doesn't make sense that you would have to create a bunch of micro explosions.

因此，要了解 ATP，只需尝试思考一下，如果您试图为体内的这些不同反应提供动力，而我们谈论的是数以万计的需要 ATP 的酶，那么您必须制造一堆微爆炸是没有意义的。

You want something that can transfer high-energy phosphates to power these reactions, to give up essentially its energy to power something that might otherwise be unfavorable.

你想要一些可以转移高能磷酸盐来为这些反应提供动力的东西，基本上放弃它的能量来为可能不利的东西提供动力。

So a lot of metabolism is simply creating ATP, which the end of the line of that-- I'm going to work backwards-- is what's called oxidative respiration.

因此，大量的新陈代谢只是简单地产生 ATP，这就是所谓的氧化呼吸。

So that happens in the mitochondria.

这发生在线粒体中。

Everybody's heard mitochondria, a powerhouse of the cell.

每个人都听说过线粒体，它是细胞的动力源。

And that is done through essentially creating a hydrogen ion gradient across the mitochondria, which powers the production of ATP by converting free phosphate plus ATP to ADP.

这基本上是通过在线粒体上创建氢离子梯度来完成的，该梯度通过将游离磷酸盐和 ATP 转化为 ADP 来为 ATP 的产生提供动力。

Now the way that hydrogen ion gradient is created is through creating hydrogen ions that can be donated through the Krebs cycle.

现在，创建氢离子梯度的方式是通过创建可通过克雷布斯循环提供的氢离子。

Now the Krebs cycle is linked to glycolysis.

现在克雷布斯循环与糖酵解有关。

So if we talk about carbohydrate metabolism, carbohydrates basically, other than fructose, get converted into glucose, which can go into glycolysis, and you can produce some ATPs through glycolysis.

因此，如果我们谈论碳水化合物代谢，除了果糖之外，碳水化合物基本上会转化为葡萄糖，葡萄糖可以进入糖酵解，并且可以通过糖酵解产生一些 ATP。

And then it boils down to pyruvate, then acetyl-CoA, which goes to the Krebs cycle, produces a lot more ATPs from that.

然后它分解为丙酮酸，然后乙酰辅酶A进入克雷布斯循环，从中产生更多的ATP。

If you talk about protein, protein is a little bit different because protein gets converted to amino acids, which can be used for muscle protein synthesis or protein synthesis in other tissues.

如果你谈论蛋白质，蛋白质有点不同，因为蛋白质会转化为氨基酸，氨基酸可用于肌肉蛋白质合成或其他组织中的蛋白质合成。

But it also can be converted through gluconeogenesis to glucose.

但它也可以通过糖异生转化为葡萄糖。

And there also are some ketogenic amino acids as well.

还有一些生酮氨基酸。

And so you can have a few different ways to get to the Krebs cycle.

因此，您可以通过几种不同的方式来实现克雷布斯循环。

Either being through acetyl-CoA or through glucose going through the glycolysis to pyruvate.

要么通过乙酰辅酶A，要么通过葡萄糖通过糖酵解生成丙酮酸。

Then you have fatty acids, which are able to create energy through what's called beta oxidation where, essentially, you're taking these fatty acids and you're lopping them off two carbons at a time to produce acetyl-CoA which, again, can go into the Krebs cycle, produce those hydrogen ions that can then power the production of ATP.

然后是脂肪酸，它能够通过所谓的β氧化产生能量，从本质上讲，您获取这些脂肪酸，然后一次将它们去掉两个碳以产生乙酰辅酶A，乙酰辅酶A又可以进入克雷布斯循环，产生氢离子，然后为ATP的产生提供动力。

So that's kind of like at the cellular level of how this stuff works.

这有点像在细胞水平上这些东西的工作原理。

But stepping back and taking it back out, what does that have to do with weight loss or weight gain?

但退一步，把它拿出来，这与减肥或体重增加有什么关系呢？

Well, when you think about the balance of energy in versus energy out.

好吧，当你考虑能量输入与能量输出的平衡时。

Sounds very simple.

听起来很简单。

But let's look at what actually makes up energy in versus energy out.

但让我们看看实际上是什么构成了能量输入和能量输出。

First of all, you've got to realize that the energy inside of the equation is more difficult to track than people think.

首先，你必须意识到方程中的能量比人们想象的更难追踪。

So one, food labels, which we like to think as being from upon high, can have up to a 20% error in them.

因此，我们喜欢认为食品标签是从高处来的，但其中的错误可能高达 20%。

And so this is what adds bulk to your stool and whatnot.

这就是增加粪便体积的原因。

But again, reduces the metabolizable energy in there.

但同样，减少了那里的代谢能。

And there's some evidence that based on people's individual gut microbiome, that some people may actually be better at extracting energy out of fiber compared to other people.

有一些证据表明，根据人们的个体肠道微生物组，有些人实际上可能比其他人更擅长从纤维中提取能量。

So just starting off right there, OK, there's quite a bit of play in the energy inside of things.

所以从这里开始，好吧，事物内部的能量有相当多的发挥作用。

Now, one of the things people will say is, well, see that's why you shouldn't worry about tracking calories, because the food levels can be 20% off.

现在，人们会说的一件事是，好吧，这就是为什么你不应该担心跟踪卡路里，因为食物含量可以减少 20%。

And what I'll say is, OK.

我要说的是，好吧。

I understand where you're coming from.

我明白你来自哪里。

But typically, if it's off, it's going to be consistently off.

但通常情况下，如果它关闭了，它就会一直关闭。

And if you're consistent with how you track it, eventually, you'll be able to know what you're taking in.

如果你坚持跟踪它的方式，最终你将能够知道你正在吸收什么。

And that's like saying, well, don't worry about tracking if you're-- I like to use financial examples.

这就像说，好吧，如果你是的话，就不用担心跟踪——我喜欢使用财务示例。

We know that to save money, you have to earn more money than you spend.

我们知道，为了省钱，你必须赚到比花的钱更多的钱。

Well, you can't exactly know how much money you're earning at a time because there's inflation and then there is-- if you have investments, those can be different interest rates and whatnot.

嗯，你无法确切地知道你一次赚多少钱，因为存在通货膨胀，然后还有——如果你有投资，这些可能是不同的利率等等。

It's like, OK, if you have a budget, you have a reasonable idea of what it's going to be.

就像，好吧，如果你有预算，你就会对预算有一个合理的想法。

And you make certain assumptions, but you can relatively guess.

而且你做出一定的假设，但是你可以相对猜测。

Now, people use the term metabolic rate and energy expenditure interchangeably, but they're not the same thing.

现在，人们交替使用“代谢率”和“能量消耗”这两个术语，但它们并不是同一回事。

So your total daily energy expenditure is the summation of all the energy you expend in a day.

因此，您的每日总能量消耗是您一天消耗的所有能量的总和。

Then you have something called the thermic effect of food, which is a relatively small percentage of your total daily energy expenditure.

然后还有一种叫做食物热效应的东西，它只占你每日总能量消耗的相对较小的比例。

It's about 5% to 10%.

大约是5%到10%。

And very difficult to measure and usually what researchers do when they're looking at this stuff is they just make an assumption about it.

而且很难测量，通常研究人员在研究这些东西时所做的只是做出假设。

They use a constant.

他们使用一个常数。

But that's about 5% to 10% of your daily energy expenditure.

但这大约占您每日能量消耗的 5% 到 10%。

And that refers to the amount of energy it takes to extract the energy out of food.

这指的是从食物中提取能量所需的能量。

So think about your body like a car.

所以把你的身体想象成一辆汽车。

You don't just have gas in your tank and it spontaneously starts up.

您的油箱里不只是有汽油，它会自动启动。

You have to have a battery so you put in energy so you can get the energy out of the petrol that you have in your car.

你必须有一个电池，这样你才能输入能量，这样你就可以从你车里的汽油中获取能量。

Similar with food, you can't just eat food and then it just appears in your cells and you start doing stuff.

与食物类似，你不能只吃食物，然后它就出现在你的细胞中，然后你就开始做事。

It has to be systematically broken down and put into forms that can actually produce energy.

它必须被系统地分解并转化为真正可以产生能量的形式。

And so you have to put some energy in to achieve that.

所以你必须投入一些精力才能实现这一目标。

And a lot of times, people will say something like, well, not all calories are created equal.

很多时候，人们会说，好吧，并不是所有的卡路里都是一样的。

That's not true, because calorie is just a unit of measurement.

这不是真的，因为卡路里只是一个测量单位。

That would be like saying not all seconds on a clock are created equal.

这就像说时钟上的秒数并非都是一样的。

Yes, they are.

是的，他们是。

All sources of calories may have differential effects on energy expenditure and appetite.

所有热量来源都可能对能量消耗和食欲产生不同的影响。

So if we look at something like fat, for example, the TEF of fat is about 0% to 3%.

例如，如果我们观察脂肪之类的东西，脂肪的 TEF 约为 0% 到 3%。

Meaning, if you eat 100 calories from fat, your net will be about 97 to 100.

这意味着，如果您从脂肪中摄入 100 卡路里热量，您的净热量将约为 97 至 100 卡路里。

But if you eat 100 calories, you'll net 92 95.

但如果您摄入 100 卡路里，您将获得 92 95 卡路里。

Protein is about a 20% to 30% TEF.

蛋白质约为 TEF 的 20% 至 30%。

So if you eat calories from protein, you're only netting 70 to 80.

因此，如果您从蛋白质中摄入卡路里，您只能获得 70 到 80 卡路里。

Now, you're still net-- people say, well, you can't eat too much protein.

现在，你仍然是网状的——人们说，好吧，你不能吃太多蛋白质。

Well, people will ask, well, can protein be stored as fat?

那么，人们会问，那么，蛋白质可以作为脂肪储存吗？

The carbon's from protein it's unlikely, it's going to wind up in adipose tissue.

碳不太可能来自蛋白质，它最终会进入脂肪组织。

But if you're eating a lot of protein, overall as part of a lot of calories, it has to be oxidized and it can't provide a calorie cushion for other things to be stored in fat.

但如果你吃了大量的蛋白质，总的来说，它是大量卡路里的一部分，它必须被氧化，并且它不能为其他物质储存在脂肪中提供卡路里缓冲。

But protein itself does provide a net positive for calories, but less so than carbohydrate or fat.

但蛋白质本身确实提供了热量的净正值，但不如碳水化合物或脂肪。

And tends to be more satiating.

并且往往会更饱腹。

So again, when people talk about are all calories created equal, yes, but all sources of calories may have differential effects on energy expenditure and appetite.

再说一次，当人们谈论所有卡路里都是平等产生的时，是的，但所有卡路里来源可能对能量消耗和食欲产生不同的影响。

So that's the TEF bucket and the BMR bucket.

这就是 TEF 存储桶和 BMR 存储桶。

Then we go to physical activity.

然后我们进行体力活动。

And physical activity is, essentially, two parts.

身体活动本质上是由两部分组成。

There's exercise, which is kind of your purposeful movements like you go out for a walk, you do a training session.

有锻炼，这是一种有目的的运动，比如出去散步、参加训练。

I mean, whatever.

我的意思是，无论如何。

Any purposeful activity.

任何有目的的活动。

And then you have what's called NEAT which is non-exercise activity thermogenesis, which I think is actually really cool.

然后就是所谓的 NEAT，即非运动活动产热，我认为这实际上非常酷。

They tend to-- if they overeat, they just spontaneously increase their physical activity.

他们倾向于——如果吃得过多，他们就会自发地增加体力活动。

Now, people get NEAT confused.

现在，人们变得很困惑。

I've heard people say, well, I'm going to go out for a walk to get my NEAT up.

我听到人们说，好吧，我要出去散步，让我的整洁起来。

That's not NEAT.

这可不是什么好事情。

NEAT is not something you can consciously modify.

NEAT 不是你可以有意识地修改的东西。

What you're doing there, if it's purposeful, it's exercise.

你在那里做的事情，如果是有目的的，那就是锻炼。

So for example, when I'm talking, if I'm waving around my hands, if I'm tapping my feet, if I'm-- whatever.

举例来说，当我说话时，如果我在挥手，如果我在轻拍脚，如果我——无论什么。

That's NEAT.

太棒了。

But trying to get yourself-- I'm just going to tap my foot more, well, now if I'm consciously having to do this, then my focus-- I mean, you know how the brain works.

但试着让自己——我只是要多点一下脚，好吧，现在如果我有意识地必须这样做，那么我的注意力——我的意思是，你知道大脑是如何工作的。

Very hard to do-- you don't really do two things at once.

很难做到——你不可能同时做两件事。

We're not talking about 100 calories or 200 calories per day.

我们说的不是每天 100 卡路里或 200 卡路里。

We're talking about, in some cases, hundreds of thousand-- excuse me, hundreds to maybe even close to 1,000 calories per day.

在某些情况下，我们谈论的是每天数十万卡路里——对不起，每天数百甚至接近 1,000 卡路里。

Could you elaborate on that?

您能详细说明一下吗？

They should have gained like-- I think it was something like 3 to 4 kilos.

他们应该增加了——我想大概是 3 到 4 公斤。

It was predicted.

这是预料到的。

And what they found is this individual just spontaneously increased their physical activity.

他们发现这个人只是自发地增加了他们的体力活动。

He didn't purposefully do it, it just happened.

他并不是故意这么做的，只是发生了而已。

And I mean, anecdotally, I've seen people who are, again, very lean even eat a meal, sit down, and start sweating.

我的意思是，有传闻说，我见过一些人即使吃完饭、坐下来也很瘦，然后就开始出汗。

And be very fidgety.

并且非常烦躁。

There was a natural bodybuilder back in the day named Jim Cordova.

当时有一位天生的健美运动员，名叫吉姆·科尔多瓦。

And this guy was just very lean all the time, and he was exactly that phenotype.

这家伙一直都很瘦，他就是那种表型。

He would walk up a flight of stairs and all of a sudden he's sweating.

他会走上一段楼梯，突然间就出汗了。

Sit down eat a meal, he's sweating.

坐下来吃饭，他已经满头大汗了。

He's just--

他只是——

Now, you also do get a decline in BMR when you lose weight, one, because you're just in a smaller body now and so it takes less energy to lock them out.

现在，当你减肥时，你的基础代谢率也会下降，其一，因为你现在的身体变小了，所以需要更少的能量来锁定它们。

But also there's what's called metabolic adaptation, which is a further reduction in your BMR than expected from the loss of body mass.

但还有所谓的代谢适应，即由于体重减轻而导致的基础代谢率比预期进一步降低。

And that's on average usually around like 15%.

平均而言，这一比例通常约为 15%。

But it does seem to be-- there's new evidence coming out on the metabolic adaptation from BMR.

但似乎确实如此——有关于 BMR 的代谢适应的新证据出现。

And it seems to be a little bit-- kind of in the transition phases.

似乎有点——处于过渡阶段。

So if you start a diet within the first few weeks, you will have a reduction in BMR that then just-- thereafter, any further reduction is mostly from the amount of body mass you lose.

因此，如果您在最初几周内开始节食，您的基础代谢率将会降低，此后，任何进一步的降低主要来自于您失去的体重。

And then if you, like for example, finish a diet and move your calories to maintenance, within a few weeks, BMR starts to come back up.

然后，如果您完成节食并将卡路里用于维持，几周内，基础代谢率就会开始回升。

There is still a small reduction, but I used to be somebody who thought that BMR, metabolic adaptation was a big reason why people stopped losing weight or plateaued.

虽然还是有小幅度的减少，但我曾经认为基础代谢率（BMR）、代谢适应是人们体重停止下降或停滞不前的一个重要原因。

And now, I think it's much more to do with NEAT.

现在，我认为这与 NEAT 的关系更大。

Four hours a day of, basically, a soleus pushup, which is basically a heel raise.

每天四个小时，基本上是比目鱼肌俯卧撑，基本上是脚后跟抬高。

A seated catchphrase with one foot not weighted.

一只脚没有负重的坐着的标语。

And then they looked at it a bunch of things about glucose metabolism and glucose clearance and insulin levels.

然后他们研究了一系列有关葡萄糖代谢、葡萄糖清除率和胰岛素水平的信息。

And they didn't conclude that people burned a ton of calories, but what they concluded was that blood sugar regulation improved greatly.

他们并没有得出人们燃烧大量卡路里的结论，但他们得出的结论是血糖调节大大改善。

And I think, there was a lot of excitement about this at some level, but based on everything you're telling me, this fits perfectly with what's known about neat.

我认为，在某种程度上，人们对此感到非常兴奋，但根据你告诉我的一切，这与人们所知道的整洁完全吻合。

So this fell somewhere in between with-- in between, excuse me, sort of deliberate exercise and spontaneous movement.

所以这介于两者之间，请原谅，有点刻意的锻炼和自发的运动。

I guess they've tried to make that spontaneous movement a little bit more conscious.

我猜他们试图让这种自发的运动变得更有意识。

When I talk to them, usually, they went to an online calculator.

当我和他们交谈时，他们通常会使用在线计算器。

It's a few things.

有几件事。

They went to an online calculator, put in their information, it spat out some calories to eat, and they ate that and didn't lose weight.

他们使用在线计算器，输入他们的信息，它会释放出一些卡路里来吃，他们吃了这些，但体重并没有减轻。

And it's like, well, what do you think is more likely?

就像，那么，你认为更有可能的是什么呢？

That you're defying the laws of conservation of energy or that you might have not gotten the right number for you?

您违反了能量守恒定律，或者您可能没有得到适合您的数字？

So if you're somebody who just randomly is weighing in and you're eating in a calorie deficit, and you just weigh in one day where you've just whatever reason holding some more fluid, then you're oh, see, this isn't working when in reality, your average might be dropping.

所以，如果你是一个随机称重的人，而且你的饮食热量不足，而且你只是在某一天称重，但出于某种原因你多喝了一些液体，那么你会发现，哦，看，这不起作用，而实际上，你的平均值可能会下降。

So that's one of the reasons, and actually, believe it or not, weight fluctuations are actually identified as a major reason why people get discouraged from weight loss.

这就是原因之一，事实上，不管你信不信，体重波动实际上被认为是人们不愿减肥的主要原因。

It stops the buy-in, when they have a fluctuation up.

当它们向上波动时，它会停止买入。

So that's one of the reasons--

这就是原因之一——

Actually, I think this is a month where a number of prominent podcasters like Bert Kreischer, Tom Segura, Joe Rogan, and others, I think they call it "Sober October," but in addition to avoiding alcohol, they're burning 500 calories per day during the exercise.

事实上，我认为在这个月，伯特·克莱舍尔、汤姆·塞古拉、乔·罗根等许多著名播客都将其称为“清醒的十月”，但除了避免饮酒外，他们在锻炼期间每天还燃烧 500 卡路里。

But I have heard about this post-exercise induced increase in oxidative metabolism.

但我听说运动后会导致氧化代谢增加。

I'm probably not using the right language in here.

我可能在这里没有使用正确的语言。

So if I were to go out, for instance, and do some sprints.

例如，如果我出去做一些冲刺。

Run hard for a minute, jog for a minute, run hard for a minute, and do that 10 times over.

努力跑一分钟，慢跑一分钟，努力跑一分钟，如此做10次。

Let's assume I burn 400 calories during that exercise bout.

假设我在那次锻炼中燃烧了 400 卡路里。

But my understanding is that in the hours that follow, my basal metabolic rate will have increased.

但我的理解是，在接下来的几个小时内，我的基础代谢率将会增加。

Is that true, and is it significant enough to care about?

这是真的吗？它是否重要到值得关心？

It was like, oh, if we just do this and this, we'll get this.

就像，哦，如果我们这样做，这样做，我们就会得到这个。

And then I did nutrition as a graduate degree, and then my advisor was so great because you could do something over here and he could tell you how it would affect vitamin D metabolism over here.

然后我攻读了营养学研究生学位，然后我的导师非常出色，因为你可以在这里做一些事情，他可以告诉你这将如何影响这里的维生素 D 代谢。

But in the meta analyzes and more tightly controlled studies where they equate work between high intensity intervals and moderate or low intensity cardio, so equating work, they don't see differences in the loss of body fat.

但在荟萃分析和更严格控制的研究中，他们将高强度间歇训练和中低强度有氧运动等同起来，因此，他们没有看到身体脂肪减少方面的差异。

And so to me, if I'm looking like, that's the example of a mechanism, which is OK, we're seeing this small increase in basal metabolic rate, that should lead to increased loss of body fat.

所以对我来说，如果我看起来像这样，那就是一种机制的例子，这没关系，我们看到基础代谢率的小幅增加，这应该会导致身体脂肪的减少增加。

But again, remember, you're capturing a snapshot in time.

但请再次记住，您正在及时捕捉快照。

But we don't see a difference in the loss of body fat.

但我们没有看到身体脂肪减少的差异。

So what may be happening-- and again, I'm just speculating.

那么可能会发生什么——再说一遍，我只是猜测。

But a way to explain it could be, you might have an increase and then you might actually have a decrease that tends to just wash it out, right?

但一种解释可能是，你可能会增加，然后你实际上可能会减少，这往往会把它冲掉，对吗？

After that, I find I'm very thirsty, I want to hydrate.

之后，我发现我很渴，我想补充水分。

But I'm not that hungry.

但我没那么饿。

And that's true of all cardiovascular exercise for me.

对我来说，所有心血管运动都是如此。

But after I weight train, about 60 to 90 minutes later, I want to eat the refrigerator.

但当我进行举重训练后，大约60到90分钟后，我想吃冰箱里的东西。

And so obviously, calories in, calories out dictates that that will play an important role as to whether or not I gain or lose weight, et cetera.

显然，卡路里摄入和消耗表明这对于我是否增加或减轻体重等起着重要作用。

So is it safe to say that the specific form of exercise that people choose needs to be taken in consideration?

那么可以肯定地说，人们选择的具体锻炼形式需要考虑在内吗？

Calories in, calories out, so how much is burned during the exercise?

卡路里输入，卡路里输出，那么运动过程中消耗了多少热量？

Also how much that exercise tends to stimulate appetite.

还有多少运动会刺激食欲。

I don't know whether or not people explore this in their rigorous studies.

我不知道人们是否在严谨的研究中探索过这一点。

And whether or not that form of exercise actually increases lean muscle mass or not.

以及这种形式的锻炼是否真的会增加瘦肌肉质量。

Now, we've taken exercise and split it into a number of different dimensions, but this is what you are so masterful at is really parsing how the different components work individually and together.

现在，我们已经进行了练习，并将其分为多个不同的维度，但这正是您所擅长的，真正解析不同组件如何单独工作和一起工作。

So if you would just expand on that, I'd love to know what you're thinking.

因此，如果您想对此进行扩展，我很想知道您的想法。

Our gut is very important, it's populated by gut microbiota that communicate with the brain, the immune system, and basically all the biological systems of our body to strongly impact our immediate and long term health.

我们的肠道非常重要，它充满了肠道微生物群，它们与大脑、免疫系统以及我们身体的所有生物系统进行交流，对我们的近期和长期健康产生强烈影响。

And those probiotics and Athletic Greens are optimal and vital for microbiotic health.

这些益生菌和运动绿色食品对于微生物健康来说是最佳且至关重要的。

In addition, Athletic Greens contains a number of adaptogens, vitamins, and minerals that make sure that all of my foundational or nutritional needs are met.

此外，运动绿叶蔬菜还含有多种适应原、维生素和矿物质，可确保满足我所有的基础或营养需求。

And it tastes great.

而且味道好极了。

If you'd like to try Athletic Greens, you can go to athleticgreens.com.huberman, and they'll give you five free travel packs that make it really easy to mix up Athletic Greens while you're on the road, in the car, on the plane, et cetera.

如果您想尝试 Athletic Greens，您可以访问 Athletic Greens.com.huberman，他们会为您提供五个免费旅行包，让您在路上、汽车中、飞机上等场合轻松搭配 Athletic Greens。

And they'll give you a year's supply of vitamin D3, K2.

他们还会为您提供一年的维生素 D3、K2。

Again, that's athleticgreens.com/huberman to get the five free travel packs and the year's supply of vitamin D3, K2.

再次强调，您可以访问 Athleticgreens.com/huberman 获取 5 个免费旅行包以及全年的维生素 D3、K2 供应。

And so in terms of comparison, it might be OK, like within subject.

因此，就比较而言，可能还不错，就像在主题内一样。

And then the other thing I was kind of circling around on was, if you're worried about NEAT, tracking your steps can be helpful because people step counts can spontaneously decrease when they're on a fat loss diet, they don't even realize it.

然后我一直在思考的另一件事是，如果你担心 NEAT，跟踪你的步数可能会有所帮助，因为人们在进行减脂饮食时步数可能会自发减少，他们甚至没有意识到这一点。

And that, again, not a complete measure of NEAT, but what we've had some clients do with our team building coaches is, they'll say OK, you're, at 8,000 steps right now.

再说一次，这并不是 NEAT 的完整衡量标准，但我们的一些客户与我们的团队建设教练所做的事情是，他们会说，好吧，你现在已经走了 8,000 步。

We're not going to add any purposeful cardio.

我们不会添加任何有目的的有氧运动。

But whatever you need to do to maintain that 8,000 steps, do that.

但无论你需要做什么来维持这 8,000 步，就去做吧。

And sometimes, they have to add 15, 20, 30 minutes of cardio, because they're spontaneous activity that they're not even aware of goes down.

有时，他们必须增加 15、20、30 分钟的有氧运动，因为它们是自发活动，他们甚至没有意识到会下降。

And I think, a lot of times in terms of coaching, scientific studies will tell you what not to do rather than what to do, right?

我认为，很多时候在教练方面，科学研究会告诉你不该做什么，而不是该做什么，对吗？

But getting back to your question about exercise, appetite, so first off, I'm not really aware if there's evidence showing like differential effects of different forms of exercise on appetite, it's possible, but again, it also could be like a placebo effect, right?

但回到你关于运动、食欲的问题，所以首先，我不太清楚是否有证据表明不同形式的运动对食欲有不同的影响，这是可能的，但同样，它也可能像安慰剂效应，对吗？

Because we-- like for example, you and I, grew up in an era where the muscle magazines, it was like, well, as soon as you finish your workout, you have your biggest meal of the day.

因为我们——比如你和我，成长在一个充满肌肉杂志的时代，就像，好吧，一旦你完成锻炼，你就会吃一天中最丰盛的一餐。

And when I say placebo effect, I think people have the wrong idea of what the placebo effect is.

当我说安慰剂效应时，我认为人们对安慰剂效应的理解是错误的。

They think that's just a feeling.

他们认为这只是一种感觉。

Placebo effect can actually change your physiology.

安慰剂效应实际上可以改变你的生理机能。

People don't realize this.

人们没有意识到这一点。

There's research showing that a placebo or the power of suggestion is basically as powerful as some pharmaceuticals.

有研究表明，安慰剂或暗示的力量基本上与某些药物一样强大。

And one of the great examples I like to use is-- actually, there was a study we just covered in our research review on creatine where they did four groups-- not supplemented with creatine, told they weren't supplemented with creatine, not supplemented, told they were supplemented, supplemented, told they weren't, supplemented, until they were.

我喜欢用的一个很好的例子是——实际上，我们刚刚在肌酸研究综述中介绍了一项研究，他们做了四组——不补充肌酸，告诉他们不补充肌酸，不补充，告诉他们补充了，补充了，告诉他们没有补充，补充了，直到补充。

Basically, it just matters what they told them.

基本上，他们告诉他们的内容很重要。

And she's-- and grew up in this very athletic, obviously, and very, very smart.

她是在这样的环境中长大的，她非常运动，显然也非常非常聪明。

And her laboratory focuses on these belief/placebo effects where if you tell people all the horrible things that stress do to you in terms of your memory and cognitive functioning and then you give them a memory test, they perform well below baseline.

她的实验室专注于这些信念/安慰剂效应，如果你告诉人们压力对你的记忆和认知功能造成的所有可怕的事情，然后你给他们进行记忆测试，他们的表现远低于基线。

If you tell them that stress sharpens them in the short term, and that adrenaline is this powerful molecule that can really tune up a number of memory systems, memory improves.

如果你告诉他们压力会在短期内使他们变得敏锐，而肾上腺素是一种强大的分子，可以真正调整许多记忆系统，那么记忆力就会提高。

And it's remarkable.

这很了不起。

And it's consistent.

而且它是一致的。

And they've done this for any number of different things, including food allergies, for instance.

他们已经针对许多不同的问题采取了这种做法，例如食物过敏。

Incredible results.

令人难以置信的结果。

In any case, I'm so glad you're bringing this up.

无论如何，我很高兴你提出这个问题。

I take creatine monohydrate, and I have for years.

我服用一水肌酸，已经服用多年了。

5 grams a day.

每天5克。

I don't--

我不——

And wouldn't you know it, they had better gains-- even though they weren't actually on anabolic steroids, they had better gains than people that they didn't tell were anabolic steroids.

你难道不知道吗，他们有更好的收益——即使他们实际上没有服用合成代谢类固醇，但他们比那些没有告诉他们服用合成代谢类固醇的人有更好的收益。

Consistently, it seems to show that exercise actually has an appetite suppressant effect.

一致地，这似乎表明运动实际上具有抑制食欲的作用。

So people don't tend to compensate at least fully for the amount of movement they do.

因此，人们往往不会至少完全补偿他们所做的运动量。

And there is some evidence that-- you've probably heard people say, well, exercise a really poor weight loss tool.

有一些证据表明——你可能听过人们说，锻炼是一种非常糟糕的减肥工具。

If you figure out how many calories you should be burning from it and you do that, you end up getting less weight loss that you would predict.

如果你计算出你应该从中燃烧多少卡路里并且你这样做了，你最终获得的体重减轻会比你预期的要少。

So it's kind of like this constrained energy expenditure model.

所以这有点像受限能量消耗模型。

But what I would say is, OK, well there's still a net of 72.

但我想说的是，好吧，净值仍然是 72。

So it's still OK, and the other thing is, I think the effects of exercise on weight loss are actually more due to what it does to appetite.

所以还是可以的，另一件事是，我认为运动对减肥的影响实际上更多是由于它对食欲的影响。

So if you look at people who lose weight and keep it off for a number of years, kind of outliers because most people don't keep it off for years, over 70% of them engage in regular exercise.

因此，如果你观察那些减肥并保持数年的人（有些异常值，因为大多数人并没有保持体重多年），其中超过 70% 的人定期锻炼。

Of people who do not keep weight loss, like maintain weight loss, less than 30% exercise regularly.

在不坚持减肥的人中，喜欢坚持减肥的人中，只有不到30%经常锻炼。

So now that's just a correlation.

所以现在这只是一种相关性。

That doesn't necessarily prove causation.

这并不一定能证明因果关系。

But there are some pretty compelling studies showing that exercise increases your sensitivity to satiety signals.

但有一些非常引人注目的研究表明，锻炼可以提高你对饱腹感信号的敏感性。

So basically, you can have the same satiety signals, but you're more sensitive to them when you exercise.

所以基本上，你可以有相同的饱腹感信号，但你在锻炼时对它们更敏感。

And there's actually a really classic study from the 1950s in Bengali workers where they looked at, basically, four different quadrants of activity.

事实上，20 世纪 50 年代有一项针对孟加拉工人的非常经典的研究，他们基本上观察了四个不同的活动象限。

So you had sedentary, lightly active, moderately active, heavily active.

所以你有久坐、轻度活动、中度活动、重度活动。

Basically, based on their job choice.

基本上，根据他们的工作选择。

And they didn't have an intervention.

而且他们没有进行干预。

They just wanted to track them and see how many calories did they actually eat.

他们只是想追踪他们，看看他们实际吃了多少卡路里。

So it was like a J-shaped curve.

所以它就像一条J形曲线。

So the sedentary actually ate more food than the lightly active or moderately active.

因此，久坐的人实际上比轻度活动或中等活动的人吃更多的食物。

But from lightly active to heavily active, they almost perfectly compensated how many calories they should be eating.

但从轻度活动到重度活动，他们几乎完美地补偿了他们应该摄入的卡路里量。

So to me, that suggests, when you become active, you can actually regulate your appetite appropriately or much more appropriately than if you're sedentary.

所以对我来说，这表明，当你变得活跃时，你实际上可以适当地调节你的食欲，或者比你久坐时更适当地调节你的食欲。

And there's this kind of-- and we'll get into this when we talk about artificial sweeteners.

当我们谈论人造甜味剂时，我们会讨论这一点。

This is the idea in mind.

这就是心中的想法。

I think I adopted, perhaps, falsely that you eat something that's sweeter, that tastes really good, and you are suddenly on the train of wanting to eat more.

我想我也许错误地认为，你吃了更甜的东西，味道真的很好，然后你突然就想吃更多。

And I could imagine how exercise, if it is increasing the satiety signals, could be working a number of different ways.

我可以想象，如果锻炼能够增加饱腹感信号，它可以通过多种不同的方式发挥作用。

You want to eat something not because your stomach's growling but because that you just need some fuel.

你想吃点东西不是因为你的胃在咕咕叫，而是因为你只是需要一些能量。

So there are some people who at least anecdotally report that exercise makes them more hungry.

因此，有些人至少有传闻称，锻炼会让他们更饥饿。

That's completely valid.

这是完全正确的。

It could be their beliefs around it, it could be a number of different things, but it's important to understand that there is individual variability.

这可能是他们的信念，也可能是许多不同的事情，但重要的是要了解个体差异。

And I think one of the things that I've learned to appreciate more is not trying to separate psychology and physiology.

我认为我学会更欣赏的一件事就是不要试图将心理学和生理学分开。

We do this a lot and say, well, I want to know the physiology, I don't care about the psychology of it.

我们经常这样做，然后说，好吧，我想了解生理学，我不关心它的心理学。

And now I'm kind of appreciating more, psychology is physiology.

现在我更加欣赏了，心理学就是生理学。

Like with most things now, we have kind of the biopsychosocial model.

就像现在的大多数事情一样，我们有一种生物心理社会模型。

And I'll give you an example of this.

我将给你举一个例子。

A lot of people get really caught up with appetite.

很多人都被食欲所困扰。

And if we could just suppress people's appetite, that's part of it.

如果我们能够抑制人们的食欲，那就是其中的一部分。

But people don't just eat because they're hungry, they eat for a lot of different reasons, social reasons, especially.

但人们吃东西不仅仅是因为饿，他们吃东西还有很多不同的原因，尤其是社会原因。

So can you remember the last social event you ever went to that didn't have food?

那么您还记得您参加的最后一次没有食物的社交活动吗？

But as humans, we're hurt animals.

但作为人类，我们是受伤的动物。

We don't want to be doing something out in isolation on our own.

我们不想孤立地独自做某事。

Now, this is a very tenuous, I guess, belief of mine.

现在，我想这是我的一个非常脆弱的信念。

But doing things alone in isolation during ancestral times, that's going to set off your alarm system.

但在远古时期独自一人做事，就会触发你的警报系统。

Because if you don't have other people, you can't protect yourself.

因为如果没有其他人，你就无法保护自己。

So typically, things were done together in groups.

通常情况下，事情是分组一起完成的。

And I think that's a lot of the reason why we tend to be just tribal in nature about a lot of things.

我认为这就是我们在很多事情上倾向于部落本质的重要原因。

So the whole point to that is, on the list of reasons why people eat, I mean, I've gotten to the point where I think that hunger is actually not even the main reason people eat.

所以重点是，在人们吃东西的原因清单上，我的意思是，我已经到了这样的地步：我认为饥饿实际上甚至不是人们吃东西的主要原因。

Stress, lack of sleep--

压力大、睡眠不足——

And I'm going to butcher the quote, but at the end of the study he said, basically, the body's systems are comprehensive, redundant, and well-focused on restoring depleted energy reserves.

我打算驳回这句话，但在研究结束时他说，基本上，身体的系统是全面的、多余的，并且专注于恢复耗尽的能量储备。

And any attempt or any strategy for weight loss that doesn't attempt to address a broad spectrum of these things is going to fail.

任何不试图解决这些问题的广泛尝试或减肥策略都将失败。

And so that's why when people say, well, just do low carb, you won't be hungry.

这就是为什么当人们说，只要吃低碳水化合物，你就不会饿。

Look, people don't just eat because they're hungry.

看，人们不只是因为饿而吃东西。

So I think really like trying to get outside the box and think about these things.

所以我觉得真的很喜欢尝试跳出框框思考这些事情。

And especially, when you read some of the literature, I recently read a systematic review of successful weight loss maintainers, which I thought was really interesting.

尤其是，当你阅读一些文献时，我最近读了一篇对成功减肥维持者的系统回顾，我认为这非常有趣。

So they took people who had lost a significant amount of body weight and kept it off for, I think, it was three years.

因此，他们带走了体重大幅减轻的人，并将其保持在三年之内。

And it basically asked them questions and tried to identify commonalities.

它基本上是向他们提出问题并试图找出共同点。

And there were some things that I expected like cognitive restraint, self monitoring, exercise.

还有一些我期望的事情，比如认知克制、自我监控、锻炼。

And then one of the things they said that I found really fascinating was pretty ubiquitous between people.

然后他们说的一件事让我觉得非常有趣，这在人与人之间非常普遍。

They said, I had to develop a new identity.

他们说，我必须发展一个新的身份。

So are you familiar with Ethan Suplee?

那么你熟悉 Ethan Suplee 吗？

Because I mean, and addicts talk about this.

因为我的意思是，瘾君子们谈论这个。

Like people who are alcoholics.

就像酗酒的人一样。

They had to get new friends.

他们必须结交新朋友。

They had to hang out at different places, because their entire life had been set up around this lifestyle for alcohol.

他们不得不去不同的地方闲逛，因为他们的整个生活都是围绕着这种酗酒的生活方式而建立的。

And I would actually argue that eating disorders or disordered eating patterns is much harder to break than other forms of addiction.

事实上，我认为饮食失调或饮食失调模式比其他形式的成瘾更难戒除。

And you think about food addiction.

你会想到食物成瘾。

Well, in some ways, bulimia and anorexia are still addictions.

嗯，从某些方面来说，暴食症和厌食症仍然是一种成瘾行为。

You can't stop eating.

你不能停止吃东西。

Like if you're alcoholic, you can abstain from alcohol.

就像如果你酗酒一样，你可以戒酒。

If you become addicted to say, cocaine, you can abstain from that.

如果你对可卡因上瘾，你可以戒掉它。

You can never abstain from food.

你永远无法戒掉食物。

And so now imagine telling a gambling addict, well, you've got to play this slot a couple of times a day but no more.

现在想象一下，告诉一个赌博成瘾者，好吧，你必须每天玩这个老虎机几次，但不能再多了。

Like that's really challenging.

就像这真的很有挑战性。

So yeah.

所以是的。

I just-- like all this stuff, it's so important to be comprehensive with how we treat these things.

我只是——就像所有这些东西一样，全面了解我们如何对待这些事情非常重要。

Now, nowadays, there's a lot of interest in brain, body, and particular gut-- brain axis and we can talk about that.

如今，人们对大脑、身体和特定的肠道-脑轴很感兴趣，我们可以谈论这一点。

But I really appreciate that you're spelling out how there are these different variables.

但我真的很感激你详细说明了这些不同的变量是如何存在的。

Each one can account for a number of different things.

每一个都可以解释许多不同的事情。

Exercise clearly has a remarkably potent effect-- both during the exercise in terms of caloric burn and overall health and biomarkers.

锻炼显然具有非常有效的效果——无论是在锻炼期间的热量消耗还是整体健康和生物标志物方面。

And then this is wonderful to learn that it can increase the sensitivity to satiety signals.

然后很高兴得知它可以增加对饱腹感信号的敏感性。

I think that makes-- at least in my mind, places very high on the list of things that people should absolutely do.

我认为，至少在我看来，这在人们绝对应该做的事情清单上名列前茅。

But there are other factors too.

但还有其他因素。

And the identity piece is fascinating.

而且身份部分很迷人。

It reminds me also-- your story reminds me also of David Goggins who is-- he talks about his former very overweight self almost as if it was a different person.

这也让我想起了——你的故事也让我想起了大卫·戈金斯——他谈到了他以前非常肥胖的自己，几乎就像是换了一个人一样。

And he uses language that I'm not going to use here.

他使用了我在这里不会使用的语言。

But you know what?

但你知道吗？

I've met David, know David a bit, and his every bit is intense and driven as and a remarkable human being as he appears to be online.

我见过大卫，对大卫有一点了解，他的每一点都充满激情，充满动力，就像他在网上一样，是一个非凡的人。

He is that guy.

他就是那个人。

But it does seem like he had to more or less kill off a former version of himself and continues to do that every day.

但他似乎不得不或多或少地杀死以前的自己，并且每天都在继续这样做。

And I think what your point about this other fellow who does it through a similar process, the word "today" seems to really matter.

我认为你对另一个通过类似过程做到这一点的人的看法，“今天”这个词似乎真的很重要。

It's not like you defeat this former version of yourself and then that person is buried and gone, you said, you know, I killed my clone today, and that's the way that David talks about it also.

这并不是说你打败了以前的自己，然后那个人就被埋葬了，消失了，你说，你知道，我今天杀了我的克隆人，大卫也是这么说的。

So this is a daily process.

所以这是一个日常过程。

And I think this is not just a small detail in time together all these things.

我认为这不仅仅是所有这些事情时间上的一个小细节。

I think that what you are describing is fundamental, because we can pull on each one of these variables and talk about each one of them.

我认为你所描述的是基础性的，因为我们可以利用这些变量中的每一个并讨论它们中的每一个。

But at the end of the day, we are a cohesive whole as an individual.

但归根结底，我们作为一个个体是一个有凝聚力的整体。

Sorry.

对不起。

You were about to say.

你正要说。

So why do we still have an obesity problem?

那么为什么我们仍然存在肥胖问题呢？

They don't keep it off.

他们不会阻止它。

Why don't they keep it off?

他们为什么不把它关掉呢？

When you look at the research, basically, what it suggests is because people think about, I am going to do a diet, and I'm going to lose this weight, and they do not give any thought to what happens afterwards.

当你看这项研究时，基本上，它所暗示的是因为人们会想，我要节食，我要减掉这个体重，而他们没有考虑之后会发生什么。

It's like think about if you have some chronic disease or a diabetic.

这就像考虑一下您是否患有某种慢性疾病或糖尿病。

You can't just take insulin once and that's it, right?

你不能只服用一次胰岛素就这样了，对吧？

You've got to take it continuously, otherwise, you're going to have problems.

一定要坚持下去，不然就会出问题。

If you do a diet and you lose 30 pounds, fantastic.

如果你通过节食而减掉了 30 磅，那就太棒了。

But if you then just go back to all your old habits, you're going to go back to where you were, if not more.

但如果你回到原来的习惯，你就会回到原来的状态，甚至更多。

You can't create a new version of yourself while dragging your old habits and behaviors behind you.

当你把旧的习惯和行为抛在身后时，你无法创造一个新的自己。

So what I'll tell people is-- because people say, well, I'm doing a carnivore diet or I'm doing this diet or that diet.

所以我要告诉人们的是——因为人们说，好吧，我正在实行肉食饮食，或者我正在实行这种饮食或那种饮食。

And I'll say that's fine.

我会说那很好。

Do you see yourself doing that for the rest of your life?

你认为自己余生都会这样做吗？

And if the answer is yes, if you really believe that that's going to be sustainable for you, and plenty of people, low carb, intermittent fasting, whatever, they say, I felt easy.

如果答案是肯定的，如果你真的相信这对你来说是可持续的，而且很多人，低碳水化合物，间歇性禁食，无论如何，他们说，我感觉很轻松。

I could do this forever.

我可以永远这样做。

Great.

伟大的。

If you're going to lose weight, you have to invoke some form of restriction-- whether it is a nutrient restriction like low carb, low fat, a time restriction-- intermittent fasting any form of time restricted eating, or calorie restriction-- tracking macros, whatever.

如果你要减肥，你必须采取某种形式的限制——无论是低碳水化合物、低脂肪等营养限制，还是时间限制——间歇性禁食，任何形式的时间限制饮食，或卡路里限制——跟踪宏指令，等等。

So you get to pick the form of restriction.

所以你可以选择限制的形式。

So pick the form of restriction that feels the least restrictive to you as an individual, and also do not assume that it will feel the same for everybody else because I made this mistake.

因此，选择对你个人来说限制最少的限制形式，也不要因为我犯了这个错误而认为其他人也会有同样的感觉。

Whereas it's like, I track things.

就好像，我跟踪事情。

And so I allow myself to eat a variety of foods, I allow myself to eat some fun foods.

所以我允许自己吃各种各样的食物，我允许自己吃一些有趣的食物。

But I track everything, and I'm able to modify my body composition and be in good health doing that.

但我会追踪一切，这样我就能改变自己的身体成分并保持健康。

Now, doesn't feel hard for me.

现在，对我来说并不觉得难。

Part of it, I've just been doing it for so long.

其中一部分，我已经这样做了很长时间。

But to other people, that's very stressful.

但对于其他人来说，这压力很大。

They don't want to-- they say, well, I'd rather just not eat for 16 hours.

他们不想——他们说，好吧，我宁愿 16 小时不吃东西。

If that feels easy for them, do that because the one thing that-- there was a couple of meta analysis on popular diets.

如果这对他们来说很容易，那就这样做，因为有一件事——对流行饮食进行了一些荟萃分析。

And basically, what they showed was they were all equally terrible for long term weight loss.

基本上，他们所表明的是，他们对于长期减肥来说都同样糟糕。

But when they stratified them by adherence-- and none of them were better for adherence overall.

但当他们根据遵守情况对他们进行分层时，结果发现没有一个人的总体遵守情况更好。

But when they stratified people just according from lowest adherence to best adherence, there it was a linear effect on weight loss.

但是，当他们仅根据从最低坚持到最佳坚持对人们进行分层时，减肥就会出现线性效应。

So really what it says is, what is the diet that's going to be easiest for you to adhere to in the long term and you should probably do that?

所以，实际上它所说的是，从长远来看，什么饮食​​最容易坚持，你应该这样做？

And people-- again, this is where I step back and take the 10,000-foot view.

人们——再说一遍，这是我退后一步，从 10,000 英尺高空俯瞰的地方。

Somebody will say, well, I'm going to do ketogenic because I want to increase my fat oxidation and I want to do this.

有人会说，好吧，我要做生酮，因为我想增加我的脂肪氧化，我想这样做。

And they're talking about all these mechanisms and everything.

他们正在谈论所有这些机制和一切。

And that's great.

那太好了。

Can you do it for the rest of your life?

你能做一辈子吗？

Is this going to be something sustainable for you?

这对你来说是可持续的吗？

And if the answer is, no, you probably need to rethink what your approach is going to be.

如果答案是否定的，您可能需要重新考虑您的方法。

I think it also explains a lot of the so-called controversy that exists out there.

我认为这也解释了很多存在的所谓争议。

I think it also crosses over with the placebo effect.

我认为它也与安慰剂效应交叉。

I almost want to say, pick the nutrition plan that you think you can stick to for a long period of time, ideally forever.

我几乎想说，选择你认为可以长期坚持的营养计划，最好是永远坚持。

And pick your placebo too, because there is a lot of placebo woven into each and every one of these things-- intermittent fasting, keto.

还要选择你的安慰剂，因为每一件事情都交织着很多安慰剂——间歇性禁食、酮类。

Probably even vegan versus omnivore versus carnivore.

甚至可能是素食主义者与杂食动物与肉食动物。

When you pair up with somebody that was referring to romantic love, that there's this sort of mutual agreement to create this idea that you're going to live into.

当你与一个谈及浪漫爱情的人配对时，就会有这种相互同意来创造你将要生活的想法。

So it's not just about how you feel in the moment, it's also that you project into the future quite a lot.

因此，这不仅与您当下的感受有关，还与您对未来的规划有关。

I'm seeing a lot of parallels with a highly functional and effective diet.

我发现高功能且有效的饮食有很多相似之处。

And I love it.

我喜欢它。

I'm not setting this parallel up artificially, I'm setting up because I think that ultimately it boils down to what you said earlier, which is that the brain and our decisions about what we are going to stick to are tremendously powerful.

我并不是人为地建立这种平行关系，我之所以这样做是因为我认为最终它可以归结为你之前所说的，即大脑和我们关于我们要坚持什么的决定是非常强大的。

Same thing for low carb versus low fat.

低碳水化合物与低脂肪也是如此。

Fewer quick calories and protein.

更少的快速卡路里和蛋白质。

There was a meta analysis done by Kevin Hall back in 2017 where they looked at the-- and again, actual loss of body fat.

凯文·霍尔 (Kevin Hall) 在 2017 年进行了一项荟萃分析，他们再次观察了身体脂肪的实际减少情况。

And another important point was, I think there was 22 studies in this.

另一个重要的一点是，我认为这方面有 22 项研究。

But all of them provided food to the participants

但他们都为参与者提供了食物

That's important because that ensures that adherence can be much higher in those studies whereas various free living studies, sometimes, you can see funky results.

这很重要，因为这可以确保这些研究中的依从性更高，而在各种自由生活研究中，有时您会看到奇怪的结果。

But the low carb versus low fat, protein, and calories are equated, basically, no difference in fat loss.

但低碳水化合物与低脂肪、蛋白质和热量是等同的，基本上在减脂方面没有区别。

Now, some people get upset about this.

现在，有些人对此感到不安。

But it's like-- what to me, that's like-- this is great because you get to pick the tool you want.

但这就像——对我来说，这就像——这很棒，因为你可以选择你想要的工具。

The one tool, it doesn't seem to be that much better than another.

一个工具似乎并不比另一个工具好多少。

So pick the one that works for you.

因此，请选择适合您的一款。

Whatever lever you've got a pull, you've got a bunch of different options.

无论您使用什么杠杆，您都有很多不同的选择。

Because I realize not everyone is trying to lose weight.

因为我意识到并不是每个人都在努力减肥。

And I definitely want to talk about, at some point, how to eat to maintain weight.

我肯定想在某个时候谈论如何通过饮食来保持体重。

Because I think there are a significant fraction of people out there who are trying to do that.

因为我认为有很大一部分人正在尝试这样做。

Yeah.

是的。

Is there any downside to being a dabbler?

涉猎者有什么缺点吗？

Keto for a few months and then omnivore for a few months, et cetera?

吃几个月的酮，然后吃几个月的杂食，等等？

I do think the one thing to keep in mind is, when you look at like going between extremes, so like low fat to low carb or vise versa, there can be, in that transition, period a little bit of weirdness for lack of a better term.

我确实认为要记住的一件事是，当你考虑在极端之间移动时，例如低脂肪到低碳水化合物，反之亦然，在这种转变中，由于缺乏更好的术语，可能会出现一点奇怪的时期。

Like for example, if you've been on a ketogenic diet and all of a sudden, you move to a higher carb diet, you'll be basically insulin resistant for just a short period of time.

例如，如果您一直在进行生酮饮食，然后突然转向高碳水化合物饮食，那么您基本上会在短时间内出现胰岛素抵抗。

Now, is that going to cause any health problems?

那么，这会导致任何健康问题吗？

Probably not in the long term, especially, if you're still controlling calories.

从长远来看可能不会，特别是如果您仍在控制卡路里的话。

But just because your body has like upregulated these systems, dealing mostly with fat and glucose production rather than glucose metabolism, so now if you start taking glucose or carbohydrate back in, like for example, you get somebody-- or a glucose tolerance test after they've been on keto, they'll do pretty terribly at it.

但仅仅因为你的身体对这些系统进行了上调，主要处理脂肪和葡萄糖的产生，而不是葡萄糖代谢，所以现在如果你开始重新摄入葡萄糖或碳水化合物，例如，你让某人在服用酮类药物后进行葡萄糖耐量测试，他们会做得非常糟糕。

But that doesn't last that long.

但这种情况不会持续那么久。

I've tried very low carbohydrate diet, and I would have assumed-- and now I know I'm completely wrong, but I assumed that I was so carbohydrate starved for so long that my insulin sensitivity, which is a good thing, by the way folks, would have gone through the roof, and I would be able to just sponge up every bit of glucose that I would have ingested through carbohydrate.

我尝试过低碳水化合物饮食，我会假设——现在我知道我完全错了，但我假设我长期缺乏碳水化合物，以至于我的胰岛素敏感性（顺便说一句，这是一件好事，伙计们）会达到顶峰，我将能够吸收我通过碳水化合物摄入的每一点葡萄糖。

So I did indeed switch over.

所以我确实转行了。

And I felt like I had pretty terrible brain fog.

我觉得我的脑雾非常严重。

I even got some jitters.

我什至有些紧张。

And I thought, what is this?

我想，这是什么？

My blood sugar was low before, and now my blood sugar should be in more moderate territory.

以前我的血糖很低，现在我的血糖应该在比较温和的范围内。

But based on what you just said, I'd upregulated the enzymes and systems in the body for fat metabolism on the keto diet and then switching over-- there was basically a ramping up of the molecules involved in-- presumably in glycolysis.

但根据你刚才所说的，我在生酮饮食中上调了体内脂肪代谢的酶和系统，然后进行了转换——基本上参与了糖酵解的分子的增加。

So if you measure with something like fasting blood glucose or fasting insulin or even HOMA-IR, those tend to be pretty good on low carb.

因此，如果您使用空腹血糖或空腹胰岛素甚至 HOMA-IR 等指标进行测量，这些指标对于低碳水化合物来说往往相当不错。

But then if you do it all glucose tolerance test, it tends to be pretty bad.

但如果你做了所有的葡萄糖耐量测试，结果往往会很糟糕。

And so it depends on your specific measure.

所以这取决于你的具体措施。

So I think that the idea that keto makes you glucose intolerant or insulin resistant, I think, again, it's just a transition period.

所以我认为生酮会使你产生葡萄糖不耐受或胰岛素抵抗的想法，我认为，这只是一个过渡期。

And I'm not too worried about it.

我对此并不太担心。

But it is something important to keep in mind.

但请记住这一点很重要。

And one of the reasons like if somebody was to transition out of keto, typically, if I'm working with them or one of our coaches are working with them, we'll kind of instruct them to do it like slowly and systematically over like a four to eight-week period.

原因之一是，如果有人要摆脱酮症，通常，如果我和他们一起工作，或者我们的一位教练和他们一起工作，我们会指导他们在四到八周的时间内缓慢而系统地做到这一点。

That way, hopefully, they're not having that period of two weeks where they're like, oh, man, why do I feel so terrible?

这样，希望他们不会有两周的时间，他们会说，哦，伙计，为什么我感觉这么糟糕？

But gut health, at least the more popular studies on gut health, have blown a lot of things out of the water.

但肠道健康，至少是关于肠道健康的更流行的研究，已经证明了很多事情。

For instance, this idea that you could take obese mice and literally give them fecal transplants from lean mice, and yes, that sounds like what it sounds like.

例如，你可以把肥胖的老鼠移植到瘦老鼠的粪便上，是的，这听起来就像它听起来的那样。

Fecal transplants definitely inserted through the same end in which it comes out.

粪便移植物肯定是从它出来的同一端插入的。

And I point that out because a lot of people have asked me that they-- and it was kind of scary to me, I thought, yes, this is not about ingesting feces, this is-- they literally do a transplant of these from lean mice into obese mice and the obese mice get lean.

我指出这一点是因为很多人问我——这对我来说有点可怕，我想，是的，这不是摄入粪便，而是——他们确实将这些粪便从瘦老鼠移植到肥胖老鼠身上，肥胖老鼠变得瘦了。

And yes, this has been done in humans.

是的，这已经在人类身上完成了。

Limited number of studies and observed some pretty impressive effects on weight loss that I have to assume could be related to placebo effect.

数量有限的研究并观察到一些对减肥的相当令人印象深刻的效果，我不得不假设这可能与安慰剂效应有关。

They might have told these obese people, hey, look, you're going to get lean through this fecal transplant from lean people.

他们可能会告诉这些肥胖者，嘿，看，通过瘦人的粪便移植，你会变得瘦。

But more likely, it had some effect on their core physiology.

但更有可能的是，它对他们的核心生理机能产生了一些影响。

I don't know which aspects although, I can speculate which ones.

虽然我不知道是哪些方面，但我可以推测哪些方面。

And they became leaner.

他们变得更瘦了。

They lost weight.

他们体重减轻了。

And that is, in some sense, miraculous, especially given the important role of psychology and exercise and satiety signals, because I'm going to assume that they controlled for a number of those other variables, although no study is perfect.

从某种意义上说，这是奇迹，特别是考虑到心理学、锻炼和饱腹感信号的重要作用，因为我假设它们控制了许多其他变量，尽管没有研究是完美的。

What are your thoughts about gut health as it relates to metabolism, energy utilization, and balance?

您对肠道健康有何看法，因为它与新陈代谢、能量利用和平衡有关？

So it's going to take time before we really understand the implications of the gut and what it means.

因此，我们需要时间才能真正理解肠道的含义及其含义。

So when it comes to weight loss, there probably is a role in there.

所以说到减肥，可能有一定的作用。

I mean, we've seen that there's something going on.

我的意思是，我们已经看到有些事情正在发生。

Now, whether that's-- is it something where a gut microbiome make makeup that's more obese resistant, perhaps, it extracts less calories out of the food you eat.

现在，无论是肠道微生物组使化妆品更能抵抗肥胖，也许它从你吃的食物中提取的卡路里更少。

Or perhaps, it's elevating BMR.

或者，它可能会提高基础代谢率。

Although, I think that that's probably somewhat unlikely.

不过，我认为这可能有点不太可能。

And in the gut, it seems to create an activation of the mechanosensors in the gut.

在肠道中，它似乎会激活肠道中的机械传感器。

So the perception is that the gut is full even-- or fuller.

所以人们的感觉是肠道已经充满了——或者更饱满了。

I should say, not full, because I think people who take semaglutide don't feel bloated.

我应该说，不是饱，因为我认为服用索马鲁肽的人不会感到臃肿。

I don't know, they might.

我不知道，他们可能会。

But that one feels as if their gut is actually fuller because these mechanical sensors that send-- stretch are sending signals to the brain, oh, I actually have some food.

但那个人感觉他们的肠道实际上更饱了，因为这些发送拉伸的机械传感器正在向大脑发送信号，哦，我实际上有一些食物。

I'm not empty down there.

我下面并不空着。

And that's-- when we get into mechanisms-- though one of the things I love mechanisms.

这就是——当我们进入机制时——尽管我喜欢机制的事情之一。

But one of the things I tell people is keep in mind that when you're dealing with an outcome, like when I say outcome-based, we're talking about physical outcomes like weight loss, fat loss, changes in blood markers, whatever, though that is the summation of thousands of different mechanisms.

但我告诉人们的一件事是，请记住，当你处理结果时，就像我说基于结果时，我们谈论的是体重减轻、脂肪减少、血液标记物变化等身体结果，尽管这是数千种不同机制的总和。

So sure, sometimes, you can affect a mechanistic pathway, and you get straight down the line outcome, but not always.

所以当然，有时，你可以影响机械途径，并且你可以直接得到结果，但并非总是如此。

Whenever you make a treatment or anything into the system, it's like throwing a pebble in a lake.

每当您对系统进行治疗或任何操作时，就像将一块鹅卵石扔进湖中一样。

It creates ripples.

它会产生涟漪。

And we don't always know what those are going to be.

我们并不总是知道那些会是什么。

And that's why-- I mean, we've seen certain drugs, what works on this pathway.

这就是为什么——我的意思是，我们已经看到了某些药物，对这条途径起作用。

And then they list off all the side effects.

然后他们列出了所有的副作用。

And you go, well, how would it create that many side effects?

你会想，它是如何产生这么多副作用的呢？

Because nothing-- for the most part, they don't just work in one place.

因为在大多数情况下，它们不只是在一个地方工作。

There's multitude of places it works.

它适用于很多地方。

And to your point about semaglutide and the effects on mechanical sensors, it's probably why a lot of people report actually low grade nausea when they're using semaglutide.

就您关于索马鲁肽及其对机械传感器的影响的观点而言，这可能就是为什么很多人在使用索马鲁肽时报告实际上有轻度恶心的原因。

Because of that.

正因为如此。

Because if you're-- that feeling is usually not like a real comfortable feeling, but I mean, it will get you to not eat.

因为如果你——那种感觉通常不像真正舒服的感觉，但我的意思是，它会让你不吃东西。

So I think there's absolutely likely a connection, but we haven't fully elucidated how that works.

所以我认为绝对有可能存在联系，但我们还没有完全阐明它是如何运作的。

And we think about how complicated the gut is.

我们会想到肠道是多么复杂。

I think I heard something like there's more cells in our microbiome by far than there are in our body.

我想我听说过我们微生物组中的细胞数量远远多于我们体内的细胞数量。

So we're actually more-- in terms of a cell per cell level, we're actually more bacteria than we are eukaryote.

所以，就每个细胞的水平而言，我们实际上更多的是细菌，而不是真核生物。

Do you do anything specifically to support your gut microbiome?

您是否采取了一些专门措施来支持您的肠道微生物组？

Are you a probiotic guy or a fermented foods guy or a fiber guy?

您是益生菌爱好者、发酵食品爱好者还是纤维爱好者？

So it is-- of the things we know, dietary fiber seems to positively impact the gut because it is what's called a prebiotic.

据我们所知，膳食纤维似乎对肠道产生积极影响，因为它是所谓的益生元。

So your gut microbiota can take, especially, soluble fiber.

因此，您的肠道微生物群尤其可以吸收可溶性纤维。

Although, there's actually some evidence, at least in mice, that they might be able to use some insoluble fiber as well.

尽管如此，实际上有一些证据，至少在小鼠身上，表明它们也可能能够使用一些不溶性纤维。

I think Suzanne was doing a study looking at hemicellulose and actually seeing that some, like specific forms of microbiota, flourish with hemicellulose suggesting that they may actually be getting some kind of fuel out of it, which is really interesting.

我认为苏珊娜正在做一项关于半纤维素的研究，实际上看到一些，比如特定形式的微生物群，在半纤维素中蓬勃发展，这表明它们实际上可能从中获取某种燃料，这非常有趣。

But again, in mice-- so just a huge caveat.

但同样，在老鼠身上——所以只是一个巨大的警告。

So your gut microbiome can produce these short chain fatty acids by fermenting the soluble fiber.

因此，您的肠道微生物组可以通过发酵可溶性纤维来产生这些短链脂肪酸。

And there's quite a bit of evidence that these volatile fatty acids, which can be then actually reabsorbed into the liver, that they have some positive effects.

有相当多的证据表明，这些挥发性脂肪酸实际上可以被肝脏重新吸收，具有一些积极的作用。

Like for example, butyrate.

例如丁酸盐。

When they've done butyrate supplementation, they've actually seen positive effects on insulin sensitivity.

当他们补充丁酸盐后，他们实际上看到了对胰岛素敏感性的积极影响。

So what we seem to understand is that more diversity seems to be better, fiber seems to be positive, prebiotics seem to work much better than probiotics.

所以我们似乎明白的是，更多的多样性似乎更好，纤维似乎是积极的，益生元似乎比益生菌效果更好。

So the research seems to really clearly suggest that eating enough fiber, which is, again, a prebiotic, that that is a better way to get a healthier gut per se than probiotic.

因此，这项研究似乎非常清楚地表明，摄入足够的纤维（又是一种益生元），与益生菌相比，这是获得更健康肠道的更好方法。

And one thing I'll tell people is like if you want a longevity hack, I mean, fiber is kind of the longevity hack.

我要告诉人们的一件事是，如果你想要长寿秘诀，我的意思是，纤维是一种长寿秘诀。

If you look at some of these cohort studies, there was actually a recent really large meta analysis of over a million subjects.

如果你看一下其中一些队列研究，你会发现最近实际上对超过一百万受试者进行了一项非常大规模的荟萃分析。

And basically, what it showed was that for every 10 gram increase in fiber, there was a 10% reduction in the risk of mortality.

基本上，研究表明，纤维每增加 10 克，死亡风险就会降低 10%。

And that extended, specifically, also to cardiovascular disease and cancer.

特别是，这也延伸到心血管疾病和癌症。

So one of the things I'll tell people when they get like really into whether it's intermittent fasting or all these other things, say, that's great, that's great.

因此，当人们真正了解间歇性禁食还是所有其他事情时，我会告诉他们一件事，说，那太好了，那太好了。

Are you eating like over 50, 60 grams of fiber a day?

您每天吃的纤维量是否超过 50、60 克？

It probably boils down to how much you can tolerate without feeling uncomfortable.

这可能归结为您可以忍受多少而不感到不舒服。

Because if you're eating like a ton of fiber, I mean, at some point, it's not going to be very comfortable.

因为如果你吃大量纤维，我的意思是，在某些时候，它不会很舒服。

Why should eat fiber is because of the effects of mortality.

为什么应该吃纤维是因为它会影响死亡率。

And some of the pushback will be, well, this is healthy user bias.

一些阻力是，嗯，这是健康的用户偏见。

And what I'll say is--

我要说的是——

But I have not found a study on fiber and cardiovascular disease and cancer and mortality where it did not show improvements from higher fiber.

但我还没有发现一项关于纤维与心血管疾病、癌症和死亡率的研究没有显示出较高纤维的改善。

So to me, that suggests that that effect is real.

所以对我来说，这表明这种效果是真实的。

And so again, as much fiber as you can get in comfortably, I would try to do it because it seems to have some really powerful effects and is good for the gut microbiome.

再说一次，只要你能舒服地摄入尽可能多的纤维，我就会尝试这样做，因为它似乎有一些非常强大的作用，并且对肠道微生物组有益。

The other thing that may be a consideration for the microbiome is there's some evidence that saturated fat may not be great for the microbiome.

微生物组可能需要考虑的另一件事是，有一些证据表明饱和脂肪可能对微生物组不利。

That it reduces the prevalence of some of the more positive strains of bacteria.

它减少了一些更阳性的细菌菌株的流行。

And that appears to be not so much from the saturated fat itself but from the bile end products that combine with saturated fat seems to have a negative effect on some of these more healthier forms of gut microbiota.

这似乎并不是来自饱和脂肪本身，而是来自与饱和脂肪结合的胆汁最终产物，似乎对一些更健康的肠道微生物群产生了负面影响。

But again, this is really difficult because we don't even know necessarily yet which species of gut microbiota are positive or negative.

但同样，这确实很困难，因为我们甚至不一定知道哪些肠道微生物群是阳性的或阴性的。

And that's-- I mean, this gets into some of these studies where they may call it dysbiosis.

我的意思是，这涉及到一些研究，他们可能称之为生态失调。

Sounds scary, but dysbiosis just means that the gut changed.

听起来很可怕，但生态失调只是意味着肠道发生了变化。

And then like very slowly, I'm going to get some-- I mean, my experience with LDL cholesterol, that's something I changed my mind on a while back.

然后慢慢地，我会得到一些——我的意思是，我在低密度脂蛋白胆固醇方面的经验，这是我不久前改变主意的事情。

When I was younger, like circa 2005 getting into grad school, the prevailing thought was, well, it's not so much the LDL, it's the ratio of LDL to HDL, that's what matters.

当我年轻的时候，比如 2005 年左右进入研究生院时，普遍的想法是，低密度脂蛋白并不重要，重要的是低密度脂蛋白与高密度脂蛋白的比率，这才是重要的。

And probably about five years ago-- and I was pretty strong about that opinion, and then five years ago looking at these Mendelian randomization studies, I went, I can't hold this position anymore.

可能大约五年前——我对这个观点非常强烈，然后五年前看着这些孟德尔随机化研究，我想，我不能再坚持这个立场了。

But if you take drugs that raise HDL, it doesn't reduce your risk of cardiovascular disease.

但如果您服用提高高密度脂蛋白水平的药物，并不会降低患心血管疾病的风险。

In Mendelian randomization studies, which Mendelian randomization basically uses natural randomization.

在孟德尔随机化研究中，其中孟德尔随机化基本上采用自然随机化。

So some people are, in the case of HDL, naturally higher secreted or naturally lower secretions of HDL.

因此，就 HDL 而言，有些人天生 HDL 分泌量较高或天生较低。

And we talked about how-- you can't really do a 20-year human randomized controlled trial.

我们讨论了如何——你无法真正进行 20 年的人体随机对照试验。

And when you're trying to examine something like heart disease, I mean, that is a lifetime exposure issue.

当你试图检查心脏病之类的疾病时，我的意思是，这是一个终生暴露的问题。

It's very unlikely that you're going to pick out differences between treatments in two years or even five years.

您不太可能在两年甚至五年内找出治疗方法之间的差异。

I mean, people don't develop-- typically, don't develop heart disease until they're in their 50s, 60s, and 70s.

我的意思是，人们通常在 50 多岁、60 多岁和 70 多岁时才会患上心脏病。

What Mendelian randomization allows is to say, OK, we have these people who naturally secrete more or less.

孟德尔随机化允许说，好吧，我们这些人或多或少会自然分泌。

So we can stratify those and look at what is their risk.

因此，我们可以对它们进行分层，看看它们的风险是什么。

So if you look at people who are low series of HDL versus high secrete of HDL withholding some of the other key variables consistent like LDL, you don't see an effect on heart disease, really.

因此，如果你观察 HDL 水平低的人与 HDL 分泌量高的人，并保留一些其他关键变量（如 LDL）一致，你实际上不会看到对心脏病的影响。

If we look at the epidemiology, it supports that it's an independent risk factor, and then, again, these Mendelian randomization studies where we can look at people's exposure over a lifetime, and then we see that linear dose-dependent effect.

如果我们研究流行病学，它支持它是一个独立的危险因素，然后，再一次，这些孟德尔随机研究，我们可以观察人们一生中的暴露情况，然后我们看到线性剂量依赖性效应。

To me, that was convincing enough to change my mind on that particular topic.

对我来说，这足以令人信服地改变我对这个特定话题的看法。

And then if you look at some of the Framingham data, look at high-- if you like stratify, like high HDL versus low HDL, both groups looking at high LDL and low LDL.

然后，如果你查看弗雷明汉的一些数据，如果你喜欢分层，比如高 HDL 与低 HDL，两组都会关注高 LDL 和低 LDL。

So if you have high HDL, low LDL, you will still be lower risk factor than somebody who is high HDL and high LDL.

因此，如果您的高 HDL 水平和低 LDL 水平，您的风险因素仍然低于高 HDL 水平和高 LDL 水平的人。

And so I think that's one of the things to keep in mind.

所以我认为这是需要牢记的事情之一。

People will say, oh, are you saying this is a bad study?

人们会说，哦，你是说这是一项糟糕的研究吗？

Very rarely will I call something, a bad study, because data is just data.

我很少会称某件事为糟糕的研究，因为数据只是数据。

But the issue becomes how it is presented and how broadly it's applied in the mainstream media or by people on-- fitness influencers.

但问题在于它是如何呈现的，以及它在主流媒体或健身影响者中的应用范围有多大。

And what I'll do is try to step in and say, OK, let's consider x, y and z as well.

我要做的就是尝试介入并说，好吧，让我们也考虑 x、y 和 z。

And then it's not a bad study, but let's just be careful about how broadly we apply the interpretation.

这并不是一项糟糕的研究，但我们要小心我们应用这一解释的范围。

Because for those of you who don't out there, you know a lot of laboratory studies on mice and humans, for instance, in the realm of biochemistry or in vitro studies, you'll see a change in some molecule can be quite dramatic.

因为对于那些不知道的人来说，您知道很多针对小鼠和人类的实验室研究，例如，在生物化学或体外研究领域，您会看到某些分子的变化可能非常巨大。

And then the assumption is, oh, you just take-- you take the drugs that will change that molecule in a particular direction, and then you'll get the effect you want at the whole organism level.

然后假设是，哦，你只需服用药物，将在特定方向上改变该分子，然后你就会在整个有机体水平上获得你想要的效果。

The person will lose weight, the person will gain muscle, the animal will not have Alzheimer's, et cetera.

人会减肥，人会增加肌肉，动物不会患有阿尔茨海默病，等等。

But it just doesn't work that way because of the redundancy, and this interplay.

但由于冗余和相互作用，它并不能以这种方式工作。

For those that are not familiar, leucine is the amino acid that is almost exclusively responsible for increasing muscle protein synthesis when you eat protein.

对于那些不熟悉的人来说，亮氨酸是一种氨基酸，当你吃蛋白质时，它几乎完全负责增加肌肉蛋白质的合成。

So it's one of the branched chain amino acids.

所以它是支链氨基酸之一。

So we wanted to see, OK, how long does this effect last?

所以我们想看看，这种效果能持续多久？

So we fed these animals whey protein, and again, I thought, OK, well, however long plasma leucine, stay up that, will be how long protein synthesis stays up.

所以我们给这些动物喂食乳清蛋白，我再次想，好吧，好吧，不管血浆亮氨酸保持多久，蛋白质合成就会保持多久。

And so we got the protein synthesis data back, and it was peaked at 90 minutes-- or sorry.

所以我们得到了蛋白质合成数据，它在 90 分钟时达到了峰值——或者抱歉。

Peaked from 45 to 90 minutes and, then was back down to baseline by 180 minutes.

45 至 90 分钟达到峰值，然后在 180 分钟时回落至基线。

And so when I went to do the plasma leucine analysis, my shock was, at three hours, plasma leucine was still plateaued out.

因此，当我去做血浆亮氨酸分析时，令我震惊的是，在三个小时后，血浆亮氨酸仍然处于稳定状态。

And then I said, OK, well, when I look at the initiation factors, that will show me something.

然后我说，好吧，当我查看启动因素时，这会向我展示一些东西。

So for those not familiar, this is part of the mTOR signaling pathway.

对于那些不熟悉的人来说，这是 mTOR 信号通路的一部分。

So one of the-- two of the targets of mTOR, when it's stimulated-- and leucine stimulates mTOR.

因此，mTOR 的两个靶标之一，当它受到刺激时，亮氨酸会刺激 mTOR。

Two of the targets of mTOR are a protein compound called 4E-BP1.

mTOR 的两个靶标是一种称为 4E-BP1 的蛋白质化合物。

And then another one is called a ribosomal protein S6K.

另一种称为核糖体蛋白 S6K。

So I don't want to get into the specifics about it because it's going to be on the scope.

所以我不想讨论它的细节，因为它会在范围内。

But basically, when these things are phosphorylated by mTOR, it increases the rate of translation initiation, which translation initiation is, basically, the process of the ribosome hooking on to the mRNA and then starting protein synthesis.

但基本上，当这些东西被 mTOR 磷酸化时，它会增加翻译起始的速率，翻译起始基本上是核糖体附着在 mRNA 上然后开始蛋白质合成的过程。

So I was looking at the phosphorylation of 4E-BP1 and RPS6.

所以我正在研究 4E-BP1 和 RPS6 的磷酸化。

I was like, OK, well, I'll probably see these things come down in three hours.

我当时想，好吧，好吧，我可能会在三个小时内看到这些事情发生。

Still plateaued.

仍处于平稳状态。

And so then it was like, what's going on here?

然后就想，这里发生了什么事？

So I actually kept rerunning the data and rerunning the data and rerunning the data.

所以我实际上一直在重新运行数据、重新运行数据、重新运行数据。

And I'll never forget, I went into Lehman's office.

我永远不会忘记，我走进雷曼兄弟的办公室。

And this is like six months after we've done this study, because this analysis takes time.

这大约是我们完成这项研究后的六个月，因为这项分析需要时间。

I was like, so where are we with this duration study?

我想，那么我们的持续时间研究进展到什么程度了呢？

I said, well, I just got to run the plasma data again because it's not right.

我说，好吧，我只需再次运行等离子体数据，因为它不正确。

And he's like, well, why is it not right?

他说，好吧，为什么不对呢？

And I said, well, it just doesn't make any sense you know.

我说，好吧，你知道这没有任何意义。

And I kind of went through, he's like well, describe to me your technique.

我经历过，他说，好吧，向我描述一下你的技术。

How are you doing this?

你怎么做这个？

And I described it, and he said, well, how is your standard error?

我描述了它，他说，好吧，你的标准误差怎么样？

And I told him what the numbers were, he said, it sounds like it's good data.

我告诉他这些数字是什么，他说，听起来这是很好的数据。

He said, it sounds like you are trying to get the data to fit your conclusion and you need to change your conclusion to fit the data.

他说，听起来你正试图让数据符合你的结论，你需要改变你的结论以适应数据。

And that statement--

还有那句话——

So I looked at that and said, why am I eating every two hours then?

所以我看着这个并说，为什么我每两个小时吃一次饭呢？

And there was even a study out of Wolf's Lab back in '99, I think, where they infused essential amino acids for six hours.

我想，早在 99 年，Wolf 实验室就曾进行过一项研究，他们注入必需氨基酸长达六个小时。

Protein synthesis went up, peaked at 60 minutes, came back down 120, and never went back up again.

蛋白质合成上升，在 60 分钟时达到峰值，120 分钟后回落，然后再也没有回升。

It just-- essentially, what the evidence suggests, I think we're the only ones to show this so far.

从本质上讲，根据证据表明，我认为我们是迄今为止唯一能证明这一点的人。

So I'm not ready to say that this is a real effect, because I hold out the idea that data artifacts do exist and you can't be totally sure.

所以我还没有准备好说这是一个真实的效果，因为我坚持认为数据伪影确实存在，但你不能完全确定。

But we saw an increase in AMP kinase around this mark where protein synthesis started falling off.

但我们看到在此标记附近 AMP 激酶增加，蛋白质合成开始下降。

And we also saw a decrease in intracellular ATP.

我们还发现细胞内 ATP 减少。

And protein synthesis is an ATP-dependent process.

蛋白质合成是一个依赖ATP的过程。

And so what we think might be happening is, you're consuming protein and you're-- you're increasing muscle protein synthesis, and then at a certain point, it has enough effect on your energy metabolism in your cells that it short-- not short circuits it, but it cuts it off, right?

所以我们认为可能发生的情况是，你正在消耗蛋白质，并且你正在增加肌肉蛋白质的合成，然后在某个时刻，它对细胞中的能量代谢产生足够的影响，使其短路，不是短路，而是切断它，对吗？

So again, we're the only ones to show that.

再说一次，我们是唯一能证明这一点的人。

That I'm aware of.

我知道。

And that was again, in rats.

这又是在老鼠身上。

So I always talk about data.

所以我总是谈论数据。

Like, there's data I'm willing to bet my toe on, my foot on, my leg on, and my life on.

就像，我愿意把我的脚趾、我的脚、我的腿、我的生命都押在这些数据上。

I'd probably barely bet the end of my little toe on that one.

我可能几乎不会把我的小脚趾的末端押在那个上面。

I'm not quite sure.

我不太确定。

But it's interesting nonetheless.

但这仍然很有趣。

So--

所以——

And especially, if you're seeing an outcome, it's important to identify mechanisms that may explain that.

尤其是，如果您看到结果，那么确定可以解释该结果的机制很重要。

But let's step back from the mechanisms from trying to chase mechanisms.

但让我们从机制中退一步，不再试图追逐机制。

And let's look at chasing outcomes in terms of what we recommend to people.

让我们看看我们向人们推荐什么来追求结果。

I heard you mention earlier that protein and maybe specific types of protein or sources of protein may provide better satiety signals than other macronutrients.

我听说你之前提到过，蛋白质以及特定类型的蛋白质或蛋白质来源可能比其他常量营养素提供更好的饱腹感信号。

Could you briefly talk about how macronutrients, including protein, but also carbohydrates and fats, impact satiety.

您能否简要谈谈宏量营养素（包括蛋白质、碳水化合物和脂肪）如何影响饱腹感。

And from the standpoint of somebody who, for instance, would like to quote unquote, "lose a few pounds," right?

从某人的角度来看，例如，想引用不引用的话，“减掉几磅”，对吧？

Probably would be happy to gain a little bit of lean body mass provided it was in a particular location on their body, that seems to be a thing now.

可能会很高兴获得一点瘦体重，只要它是在他们身体的特定位置，这似乎是现在的事情。

Directed hypertrophy, if you will.

如果你愿意的话，可以进行定向肥大。

And how much they should focus on protein as a core component of creating this diet.

以及他们应该在多大程度上关注蛋白质作为创造这种饮食的核心成分。

Assuming everything else is being done correctly.

假设其他一切都正确完成。

They're going to hit the right number of calories relative to their output NEAT, et cetera.

他们将达到相对于其输出 NEAT 的正确卡路里数量，等等。

How should we think about protein and satiety signals?

我们应该如何看待蛋白质和饱腹感信号？

And are animal sources of protein, indeed, more bioavailable?

动物来源的蛋白质确实具有更高的生物利用度吗？

That's a tricky word.

这是一个棘手的词。

For sake of muscle building, but also for sake of somebody who just would like to lose body fat.

为了增强肌肉，也为了那些只想减掉体内脂肪的人。

They don't want to lose muscle and they'd like to bring their weight down a few pounds.

他们不想失去肌肉，并且想减轻体重几磅。

There's some evidence that maybe even up to like 2.4 or 2.8 grams per kilo may give a little bit more benefit.

有一些证据表明，甚至每公斤 2.4 或 2.8 克的摄入量可能会带来更多的好处。

I think it probably looks something like an asymptote in terms of a curve where as you put more into the system, you always get a little bit more, but it just gets to the point where it's so infinitesimally small benefit that it's for all intensive purposes, no benefit.

我认为它可能看起来像一条曲线的渐近线，当你向系统投入更多时，你总是会得到更多一点，但它只是达到了这样一个点：它的好处是如此无限小，以至于它对于所有密集的目的来说，没有任何好处。

And I think, one of the things to keep in mind is if you look at-- there's kind of this thought process out there that if you're stimulating mTOR, that protein is going to make you die early.

我认为，要记住的一件事是，如果你观察一下——有一种这样的思维过程，如果你刺激 mTOR，这种蛋白质会让你早死。

And first off, we have very little human outcome data to support that claim.

首先，我们几乎没有人类结果数据来支持这一说法。

And the second thing is, if you look at any macronutrient isolation, I can make a mechanistic argument that it's going to kill you.

第二件事是，如果你观察任何大量营养素的分离，我可以提出一个机械论点，它会杀死你。

So fat-- if you take in fat and it decreases flow-mediated dilation.

那么脂肪——如果你摄入脂肪，它就会减少血流介导的扩张。

Flow-mediated dilation is important for heart health in the short term.

血流介导的扩张在短期内对心脏健康很重要。

Carbohydrates stimulate insulin.

碳水化合物刺激胰岛素。

Insulin, you know, pro-inflammatory and all these other things.

胰岛素，你知道，促炎剂和所有其他东西。

And so I can make an argument for any single macronutrient to be negative for longevity.

因此，我可以提出一个论点，认为任何单一的常量营养素对长寿都是不利的。

I really want people-- this is something that even scientists get wrong.

我真的想要人——即使是科学家也会犯错。

They look at an acute response of something and assume that is going to relate to long term outcomes and signaling.

他们着眼于某些事物的敏锐反应，并假设这将与长期结果和信号相关。

So let's just take exercise, for example.

例如，让我们进行锻炼。

If you didn't know anything about exercise, and I said to you, Andrew, I'm going to do something that's going to make you-- your heart rate go up, your blood pressure go up, your inflammatory markers go up, your reactive oxygen species increase, you're going to say-- and it's going to damage your muscles, you're going to say, I'm not doing that.

如果你对运动一无所知，我对你说，安德鲁，我要做的事情会让你——你的心率上升，你的血压上升，你的炎症标志物上升，你的活性氧增加，你会说——而且它会损害你的肌肉，你会说，我不会这样做。

That sounds horrible.

听起来很可怕。

But it does all those things in the short term.

但它会在短期内完成所有这些事情。

But what is the long term effect of exercise?

但运动的长期效果是什么呢？

You actually get healthier.

你实际上变得更健康。

All those things improve.

所有这些事情都有所改善。

Now, I'm not saying that protein is a longevity hack or anything like that, but what I'm saying is, I think some of the arguments out there are based on mechanistic-- this increases mTOR, therefore we don't want to do it.

现在，我并不是说蛋白质是一种长寿黑客或类似的东西，但我想说的是，我认为一些争论是基于机制的——这会增加 mTOR，因此我们不想这样做。

I think it is a much more complicated argument than just that.

我认为这是一个比这更复杂的论点。

So there's that.

所以就是这样。

So protein is the biggest lever.

所以蛋白质是最大的杠杆。

I would shoot for 1.6 grams per kilogram.

我的目标是每公斤 1.6 克。

If you can do more, great.

如果你能做得更多，那就太好了。

There doesn't seem to be really downsides to it.

它似乎并没有真正的缺点。

Even up to very high levels of protein.

甚至达到非常高水平的蛋白质。

Jose Antonio did a study, that was a year-long randomized control trial.

何塞·安东尼奥做了一项研究，这是一项为期一年的随机对照试验。

And again, it's just one year.

再说一次，这只是一年。

But they were looking at all sorts of different biomarkers.

但他们正在研究各种不同的生物标志物。

And basically, even up to like 4 grams per kilogram of protein, they couldn't really find any negative health outcomes from it other than people were just so satiated, they ended up eating less calories.

基本上，即使蛋白质含量高达每公斤 4 克，他们也无法真正发现任何负面的健康结果，除了人们太饱了，他们最终摄入的卡路里更少。

So protein is a big lever, because one, it has a higher thermic effect of food, so you're getting a little bit more calorie burn per day even though it's not a ton because TEF is a pretty small percentage of your overall energy expenditure.

所以蛋白质是一个很大的杠杆，因为它具有比食物更高的热效应，所以你每天会燃烧更多的卡路里，尽管它不是很多，因为 TEF 只占你总能量消耗的一小部分。

But still a benefit.

但还是有好处的。

You're getting the effects on lean body mass.

您正在获得对去脂体重的影响。

If you're in a diet, it's going to help preserve lean body mass, if you're at maintenance, it's going to help build a preserved lean body mass, and if you're in a surplus, it's going to help build a preserved lean body mass.

如果您正在节食，它将有助于保持去脂体重；如果您处于维持状态，它将有助于建立保留的去脂体重；如果您处于盈余状态，它将帮助建立保留的去脂体重。

Then you get the effects on appetite.

然后你就会看到对食欲的影响。

So now, I want to be careful because appetite effects tend to be very specific to individual foods.

所以现在，我要小心，因为食欲的影响往往是针对个别食物的。

So you can take a high protein food and make it not very satiating.

所以你可以吃高蛋白食物，但不要太饱。

So take, for example, like a really tasty protein bar, which back when we were getting into this, no such thing existed.

举个例子，就像一个非常美味的蛋白质棒，当我们进入这个领域时，还没有这样的东西存在。

Now, you have protein bars that actually take pretty darn good.

现在，你有了实际上非常好的蛋白质棒。

But if you eat one of them, I mean, are you really satiated?

但如果你吃了其中一个，我的意思是，你真的吃饱了吗？

I don't really feel satiated, that's my protein bar.

我真的没有感到饱足，那是我的蛋白质棒。

I mean, if I had to pick one food that I could eat, even though I'm not pure carnivore, for the rest of my life, it would be that because, I think, it would get me where I need to go and then I'd probably have to sneak some fiber.

我的意思是，如果我必须选择一种我可以在余生中吃的食物，即使我不是纯粹的肉食动物，那也是因为，我想，它会让我到达我需要去的地方，然后我可能不得不偷偷吃一些纤维。

Should I just not worry about that?

我应该不担心这个吗？

Some of it is going to go towards the thermic effect of food, some of that might be converted into glucose of all things through gluconeogenesis.

其中一些将用于食物的热效应，其中一些可能通过糖异生转化为所有物质的葡萄糖。

So should I worry about this 30-gram cut off?

那么我应该担心这个 30 克的减重吗？

Because I think balancing the 1.6 gram per kilogram body weight threshold with number of meals, with the need to exercise and work and live my life and sleep, et cetera, pretty soon, you run into bottlenecks where you just can't do it or you're spending so much time trying to focus on it.

因为我认为平衡每公斤体重 1.6 克的阈值与进餐次数、锻炼、工作、生活和睡眠的需要等等，很快你就会遇到瓶颈，你无法做到这一点，或者你花了很多时间试图专注于它。

Because most Americans get about 65% to 70% of their protein at dinner.

因为大多数美国人在晚餐中获取了大约 65% 到 70% 的蛋白质。

Breakfast tends to be pretty minimal protein foods.

早餐往往是蛋白质含量极低的食物。

Yeah, if the house is made out of wood you could get wood out of it, but that's not why you build.

是的，如果房子是用木头建造的，你可以从中获取木材，但这不是你建造的原因。

You're building the house out of a demand.

你建造房子是出于需求。

Same thing for muscle tissue.

肌肉组织也是如此。

There is a free pool of amino acids, but it's very, very small.

有一个免费的氨基酸池，但它非常非常小。

So when you consider things like fat, which, basically, has unlimited storage capacity, carbohydrate, at relatively large storage capacity, you can store 400 or 500 grams of carbohydrate between your liver and muscles.

因此，当你考虑像脂肪这样的东西时，它基本上具有无限的存储容量，碳水化合物，在相对较大的存储容量下，你可以在肝脏和肌肉之间存储 400 或 500 克碳水化合物。

And then protein, which almost has no storage capacity, the idea that, OK, you could make up for a low protein at one meal by over consuming another meal didn't make sense to me.

然后是蛋白质，它几乎没有存储能力，好吧，你可以通过过量食用另一顿饭来弥补一顿饭中的低蛋白质，这种想法对我来说没有意义。

So one of the studies we did-- and again, in rats, we took-- both groups were getting whey protein, so a high quality protein, they were getting the exact same amount of calories, exact same amount of nitrogen, exact same macros.

因此，我们所做的一项研究——同样，我们在老鼠身上进行了研究——两组都摄入了乳清蛋白，一种高质量的蛋白质，他们获得了完全相同数量的卡路里、完全相同数量的氮、完全相同的宏指令。

Everything was the same.

一切都一样。

The only difference was, one group, basically, got three meals of similar amounts of protein.

唯一的区别是，一组基本上得到了相似数量的蛋白质的三餐。

Dinner was a little bit bigger, because we wanted to keep it somewhat similar to how people eat.

晚餐有点丰盛，因为我们想让它与人们的饮食方式有些相似。

But each meal was going to be over the threshold to stimulate muscle protein synthesis.

但每餐的摄入量都会超过刺激肌肉蛋白质合成的阈值。

Whereas the other group, I constructed it so the first two meals of the day should not stimulate muscle protein synthesis.

而另一组，我构建了它，因此一天的前两餐不应刺激肌肉蛋白质合成。

It should be under that threshold.

它应该低于该阈值。

And then the last meal was about 70% of their total daily protein.

然后最后一餐大约占他们每日总蛋白质的70%。

And so we had them eat those for 11 weeks.

所以我们让他们吃了 11 周。

And I'll never forget this.

我永远不会忘记这一点。

This is how obsessive I became about it is, there were 110 animals in the study, and I made all the diets and I weighed out exactly every single meal for every single animal for 11 weeks.

这就是我对它的痴迷程度，这项研究中有 110 只动物，我制定了所有饮食，并在 11 周内精确称量了每只动物的每顿饭。

So I was in there at 6:00 AM, I was in there at noon, and I was in there at 6:00 PM.

所以我早上 6:00 在那里，中午在那里，下午 6:00 在那里。

And so it's interesting that there wasn't a difference in lean body mass.

有趣的是，去脂体重没有差异。

And what we found, at least with the liver, the animals that we're eating one meal with really high protein, actually had bigger livers, not like a huge amount and not something that I would consider unsafe, but it was a statistically significant difference.

我们发现，至少在肝脏方面，我们吃一顿蛋白质含量很高的动物实际上有更大的肝脏，不是很大的数量，也不是我认为不安全的东西，但这是一个统计上显着的差异。

And so to me, at least, like I'm trying to explain like no difference in lean body mass, but a difference in these hind limb weights, maybe there's some sequestering of-- that's fueling a little bit more protein synthesis of the splenic tissues rather than-- because you're capping out skeletal muscle protein synthesis.

至少对我来说，就像我试图解释的那样，去脂体重没有差异，但后肢重量有差异，也许有一些隔离——这会促进脾组织的蛋白质合成，而不是——因为你限制了骨骼肌蛋白质的合成。

And we do know that the splanchnic tissues are more sensitive or have a greater rate of protein synthesis per day.

我们确实知道内脏组织更敏感，或者每天的蛋白质合成率更高。

Like, the rate of skeletal muscle protein synthesis in humans is about like 1% per day.

例如，人类骨骼肌蛋白质的合成率约为每天 1%。

So it takes like 100 days to turn over skeletal muscle.

所以骨骼肌的更新需要大约100天的时间。

Whereas like your entire gut, your entire GI will turn itself over in like two to three days.

就像您的整个肠道一样，您的整个胃肠道会在两到三天内自行恢复。

So really-- and the liver also has a very high amount of protein synthesis, which is one of the reasons.

确实如此——肝脏也有非常大量的蛋白质合成，这是原因之一。

It's actually one of the most metabolically active organs.

它实际上是代谢最活跃的器官之一。

So all that to say, it has not-- there's been one human study that showed something similar.

综上所述，事实并非如此——一项人体研究表明了类似的情况。

And then there's been a couple of others that didn't.

然后还有其他几个没有。

And then in the intermittent fasting studies, which is maybe a good tool to look at compared to continuous feeding, one thing I will say is it looks like the 16/8 intermittent fasting style.

然后，在间歇性禁食研究中，与连续喂养相比，这可能是一个很好的工具，我要说的一件事是，它看起来像 16/8 间歇性禁食方式。

There's been a couple of studies with Grant Tinsley.

格兰特·汀斯利 (Grant Tinsley) 进行了几项研究。

And this is something I've changed my mind on as well.

这也是我改变主意的事情。

Grant Tinsley has done a couple of studies where they did use the 16/8 protocol.

Grant Tinsley 做了几项研究，他们确实使用了 16/8 协议。

They had them train during their feeding window, and they had them eat-- I think it was at least three protein-containing meals during those eight hours.

他们让它们在喂食窗口期间进行训练，并让它们吃东西——我认为在这八小时内至少吃三顿含蛋白质的饭菜。

So my suspicion is, and I'm just guessing.

所以我的怀疑是，我只是猜测。

So this is tenuous.

所以这是脆弱的。

My suspicion is, probably if you're getting like two to three high quality protein meals in a day, you're getting the vast majority of the benefits of protein.

我怀疑，如果您一天吃两到三顿高质量的蛋白质餐，您就可以获得蛋白质的绝大多数好处。

The most important thing is getting enough total.

最重要的是获得足够的总量。

And then secondarily, trying to get at least two or three meals with high quality protein in.

其次，尝试至少摄入两到三餐含有优质蛋白质的食物。

But if you're going pretty extreme with like alternate day fasting or maybe only one meal a day, then I think there may be some effects on lean body mass.

但如果你采取相当极端的方式，例如隔日禁食或每天只吃一顿饭，那么我认为可能会对去脂体重产生一些影响。

But again, these can be mitigated as well if you're doing hard resistance training.

但同样，如果您进行艰苦的阻力训练，这些问题也可以得到缓解。

Typically, that is the biggest lever in terms of lean body mass.

通常，这是就去脂体重而言最大的杠杆。

Yes, protein distribution may make a difference, but I'm trying to put it in context so people don't feel like they need to go out and eat four meals a day.

是的，蛋白质分布可能会产生影响，但我试图将其放在具体环境中，这样人们就不会觉得他们需要出去一天吃四顿饭。

But again, so what I would say is like some of the more milder forms of time-restricted eating appear to be fine for lean body mass, now, the caveat is the following.

但同样，我想说的是，一些更温和的限时饮食似乎对于瘦体重来说是很好的，现在，警告如下。

One of the nice things about animal studies is when you consider-- if you want to have a high subject number, high level of control in a long duration, it's pretty much your only option.

动物研究的好处之一是，如果你想在很长一段时间内获得大量的受试者、高水平的控制，这几乎是你唯一的选择。

So in our research review reps, I created a Venn diagram, which basically is like three circles crossing over.

因此，在我们的研究审查代表中，我创建了一个维恩图，它基本上就像三个交叉的圆圈。

One is study duration, one is level of control, and the other one is subject number.

一是学习持续时间，一是控制水平，二是科目编号。

And to get all three of those circles to cross over, it almost has to be an animal's.

为了让这三个圆圈全部交叉，它几乎必须是动物的。

That's about an 1/8 of their total lifespan.

这大约是它们总寿命的1/8。

So is it that there's no effect or is it that the effect is relatively small and would take a really long time and very high level of control to see in humans?

那么，是没有效果，还是效果相对较小，需要很长时间和非常高水平的控制才能在人类身上看到？

I don't know.

我不知道。

But I think what I would say relatively confidently is if you're going to do like a 16/8 intermittent fasting, you're probably fine.

但我想我会相对自信地说，如果你打算像 16/8 间歇性禁食那样，你可能没问题。

Especially-- and again, what is the goal?

特别是——再一次，目标是什么？

Like if you're a bodybuilder looking to be the most massive person you possibly can or you're a football player or you're in some field that having as much lean body mass as possible is really important for you, then I would say, well, you're not really gaining a whole lot by doing some form of time-restricted eating.

就像如果你是一名健美运动员，希望成为尽可能块状的人，或者你是一名足球运动员，或者你在某个领域，拥有尽可能多的瘦体重对你来说非常重要，那么我会说，好吧，你并没有通过某种形式的限时饮食获得真正的收获。

But if that's something that works for you and your goals, and especially, if it's fat loss or controlling your calories, then again, it's about the hierarchy of what's important.

但如果这对你和你的目标有用，特别是，如果它是减肥或控制你的卡路里，那么，这又是关于重要的事情的层次结构。

So to answer your question, I do think that timing and frequency matters a little-- not so much frequency, but distribution more so.

因此，为了回答你的问题，我确实认为时间和频率很重要——不是频率那么重要，而是分布更重要。

So I think the distribution matters, but it's a much smaller lever than just getting enough total protein in.

所以我认为分布很重要，但它的杠杆作用比仅仅获得足够的总蛋白质要小得多。

And then as far as animal versus plant, I used to be in the camp of, there's no way somebody can build as much muscle on a plant-based diet.

然后，就动物与植物而言，我曾经站在这样的立场上：靠植物性饮食不可能锻炼出那么多的肌肉。

And now, I think I've come back to, you can, it just requires a little bit more planning.

现在，我想我已经回到了，你可以，只是需要更多的计划。

And I don't want to say always, but it's very difficult to do without an isolated source of protein.

我不想总是这么说，但如果没有分离的蛋白质来源，这是很难做到的。

So unless you're going to supplement with an isolated plant source of protein, it's very difficult to get enough without going over on total calories because you can figure that, especially, like take somebody who may be calorically restricted, trying to get enough protein from whole intact plant sources.

因此，除非你要补充分离的植物来源的蛋白质，否则很难在不超过总热量的情况下获得足够的蛋白质，因为你可以想象，特别是对于热量可能受到限制的人来说，试图从完整的植物来源中获取足够的蛋白质。

So you've got a few different things working against you.

因此，有一些不同的因素对你不利。

One, the sources of protein you're consuming also have carbohydrate and/or fat.

第一，您消耗的蛋白质来源还含有碳水化合物和/或脂肪。

Two, it's a less bioavailable form of protein, and three, it's a lower quality of protein in terms of it has, typically, less leucine, less branched amino acids, and less essential amino acids.

第二，它是一种生物利用度较低的蛋白质形式，第三，它是一种质量较低的蛋白质，因为它通常含有较少的亮氨酸、较少的支链氨基酸和较少的必需氨基酸。

Whereas a steak is-- I'm not-- and obviously, people might want to avoid that for ethical reasons.

而牛排是——我不是——显然，出于道德原因，人们可能想避免吃牛排。

‍

‍

It's a consideration.

这是一个考虑。

Some of the better forms of vegan protein in terms of amino acid content are like soy.

就氨基酸含量而言，一些更好的纯素蛋白质形式例如大豆。

Now, I hear everybody screaming online about their testosterone levels.

现在，我听到每个人都在网上尖叫着他们的睾丸激素水平。

In terms of actual outcomes and looking at testosterone, there was a recent meta analysis looking at soy.

就实际结果和睾丸激素而言，最近有一项针对大豆的荟萃分析。

And I think if it's your only source of protein, then maybe the dosage is high enough to cause some weird effects.

我认为，如果它是你唯一的蛋白质来源，那么剂量可能足够高，足以引起一些奇怪的效果。

But if you're just using it like once or twice a day, it doesn't seem to have an effect on testosterone or estrogen.

但如果你每天只使用一两次，它似乎对睾酮或雌激素没有影响。

So that can be a decent source of protein, because it is a complete protein source.

所以这可能是一个不错的蛋白质来源，因为它是完整的蛋白质来源。

It does have a PD cause of one, which PD cause is basically a measure of protein quality based on, does it provide enough of all the amino acids so that none are limiting?

它确实有一个PD原因，该PD原因基本上是蛋白质质量的衡量标准，它是否提供了足够的所有氨基酸，因此没有限制？

And so soy is one of the only vegan sources that does that.

因此，大豆是唯一能做到这一点的纯素来源之一。

Interestingly, potato protein isolate actually has a similar essential amino acid content to whey.

有趣的是，马铃薯分离蛋白实际上具有与乳清相似的必需氨基酸含量。

So isolated potato protein.

这样就分离出了马铃薯蛋白。

It's just really hard to find.

真的很难找到。

So another reason that using an isolated protein can be helpful is because it's more bioavailable as well when it's been isolated out.

因此，使用分离的蛋白质有帮助的另一个原因是，当它被分离出来时，它的生物利用度也更高。

When the protein bound up in the actual plant material, it tends to be less bioavailable.

当蛋白质与实际植物材料结合时，其生物利​​用度往往较低。

Now, cooking can help increase the bioavailability because it breaks some of those bonds and whatnot.

现在，烹饪可以帮助提高生物利用度，因为它打破了其中一些键等等。

But it still seems to be lower.

但似乎还是更低。

And you don't-- it's really interesting.

而你不知道——这真的很有趣。

There was a recent study where they did a corn, wheat, and pea blend of protein versus whey.

最近有一项研究，他们将玉米、小麦和豌豆的蛋白质与乳清混合在一起。

And basically, the outcome was, 30 grams of each stimulated protein synthesis to a similar degree.

基本上，结果是，每种 30 克都能以相似的程度刺激蛋白质合成。

But the plasma amino acids in the plant-based protein still did not get as high as with whey.

但植物蛋白中的血浆氨基酸仍然没有乳清那么高。

Now, it may be that that's just-- it doesn't matter because once you get to a certain level, you get all the benefits.

现在，这可能只是——这并不重要，因为一旦你达到一定的水平，你就会得到所有的好处。

But I still found it interesting nonetheless that they didn't quite get as high.

但我仍然发现有趣的是，他们并没有达到那么高。

The other thing to consider with the vegan sources of protein is the leucine content.

纯素食蛋白质来源需要考虑的另一件事是亮氨酸含量。

So one of the studies we did was we looked at wheat, soy, egg, and whey.

因此，我们所做的一项研究是研究小麦、大豆、鸡蛋和乳清。

Isonitrogenous, meaning we equated protein between the groups, isocaloric, we equated calories.

等氮，意味着我们将各组之间的蛋白质等同，等热量，我们将卡路里等同。

And we looked at muscle protein synthesis.

我们研究了肌肉蛋白质的合成。

And I think this was-- the meals were 15% of total energy from protein.

我认为膳食中 15% 的能量来自蛋白质。

So like your food guide pyramid level of protein.

就像你的食物指南中的蛋白质金字塔水平一样。

And we saw that in the wheat and soy group, they did not increase muscle protein synthesis, but the egg and whey group increased muscle protein synthesis.

我们看到，在小麦和大豆组中，它们没有增加肌肉蛋白质的合成，但鸡蛋和乳清组却增加了肌肉蛋白质的合成。

Now, what's really interesting is we went back and we took wheat and added free leucine to it to match the leucine content of whey and the protein synthetic response was identical.

现在，真正有趣的是我们回去，我们用小麦添加游离亮氨酸以匹配乳清的亮氨酸含量，并且蛋白质合成反应是相同的。

So again, I don't like to simplify things too much, but leucine appears to really be driving this ship.

再说一遍，我不喜欢过于简化事情，但亮氨酸似乎确实在推动这艘船。

And I'll never forget, Layman called me into his office one day, and he would always do these thought experiments of-- he liked to think about why something occurs the way it does.

我永远不会忘记，有一天莱曼把我叫到他的办公室，他总是做这些思想实验——他喜欢思考为什么事情会这样发生。

And he said, well, think about it.

他说，好吧，考虑一下。

You would want something that really wasn't extensively metabolized by the gut and liver, because you would want to show up in the blood in values that reflect what you just ate.

你会想要一些真正没有被肠道和肝脏广泛代谢的东西，因为你会想在血液中显示出反映你刚刚吃的东西的值。

Makes sense.

有道理。

And you would want it to have passive diffusion across the muscle cell because you want to be concentration-dependent, which it is.

你会希望它在肌肉细胞中被动扩散，因为你希望它是浓度依赖性的，事实确实如此。

So--

所以 -

And then there's options like blends-- especially, with corn.

然后还有混合物等选择，尤其是与玉米混合的混合物。

Corn is actually very high in leucine.

玉米实际上亮氨酸含量非常高。

That's a percentage of its protein.

这是其蛋白质的百分比。

Now, you've got to remember like, you go eat corn on the cob and you're getting like 2 grams of total protein.

现在，你必须记住，你吃玉米棒子，你就会得到大约 2 克的总蛋白质。

So it's not that much leucine.

所以亮氨酸没有那么多。

But if you isolate out the protein, put it into a powder, well, now, when you're getting like 80%, 90% of the weight is now protein, corn is actually about 12% leucine in terms of the protein.

但如果你分离出蛋白质，将其制成粉末，那么，现在，当你得到 80%、90% 的重量是蛋白质时，玉米实际上含有大约 12% 的亮氨酸。

So a great source of leucine, it is like almost frank deficient in some other amino acids.

因此，它是亮氨酸的重要来源，但它几乎缺乏其他一些氨基酸。

But you can blend it with a few other sources of protein.

但您可以将其与其他一些蛋白质来源混合。

Like you could blend it with a soy, a pea, and you can create these complementary blends that would actually have quite a bit of leucine, but also some of the other essential amino acids.

就像你可以将它与大豆、豌豆混合一样，你可以创造出这些互补的混合物，它们实际上含有相当多的亮氨酸，但也含有一些其他必需氨基酸。

So there are options out there for plant-based folks.

因此，对于以植物为基础的人来说，有很多选择。

And I mean, we have seen people who are plant-based build impressive amounts of muscle.

我的意思是，我们已经看到以植物为基础的人建立了令人印象深刻的肌肉。

There's quite a few bodybuilders that are plant-based.

有相当多的健美运动员以植物为基础。

I'm not one of those people.

我不是那些人中的一员。

I limit the amount, and I certainly focus on the quality of what I eat.

我限制数量，而且我当然注重食物的质量。

But I do eat red meat, which brings me to a question about just generally in terms of food choice, can we come up with a relatively short summary of the following?

但我确实吃红肉，这让我想到一个关于食物选择的问题，我们能否对以下内容做出一个相对简短的总结？

Tell me if this is correct or not.

告诉我这是否正确。

That most of us should be focused on-- for sake of health span and lifespan, should be focused on ingesting minimally non-processed and minimally processed foods.

我们大多数人应该关注的是——为了健康和寿命，应该关注摄入最少的未加工和最低限度加工的食品。

Maybe even cooking our own food.

甚至可能自己做饭。

I realize that's heresy now.

我现在意识到这是异端邪说。

But ideally, we would do some of that.

但理想情况下，我们会做一些这样的事情。

And really trying to avoid foods that are highly processed and have lots of sugar.

并且真正努力避免高度加工和含大量糖的食物。

And I'm using this as a segue to get into a question that I really want your answer to.

我用这个作为一个转折来进入一个我真正想要你回答的问题。

I've been dying to ask you this, which is if sugar intake is not actually going up as much as people think it is, why are people getting so much fatter?

我一直很想问你这个问题，如果糖的摄入量实际上没有像人们想象的那样增加，为什么人们会变得如此肥胖？

So what do you think about just a general statement that we should try and eat foods that are low to no-- minimally to not processed for about 80% of our foods.

那么，对于这样一个笼统的说法，即我们应该尝试吃低含量甚至无含量的食物（大约 80% 的食物至少是未经加工的），您有何看法？

Is that a reasonable number?

这是一个合理的数字吗？

Based on the studies we have, it's mostly about the energy.

根据我们的研究，主要与能量有关。

That processed food just gets people to spontaneously eat more.

加工食品只会让人们自发地吃得更多。

And Kevin Hall showed this in his study that was very-- I mean, he designed some of the most elegant studies in nutrition.

凯文·霍尔在他的研究中证明了这一点，我的意思是，他设计了一些最优雅的营养研究。

And we haven't quite figured it out.

我们还没有完全弄清楚。

People say, well, it's sugar.

人们说，好吧，这是糖。

It doesn't appear to be sugar in terms of just an isolation.

就隔离而言，它似乎不只是糖。

Well, it's fats.

嗯，是脂肪。

Doesn't appear to be fats in isolation.

看起来并不是孤立的脂肪。

Well, it's the combination of sugar and fat.

嗯，它是糖和脂肪的结合。

Partly, well, it's the combination of sugar, fat and salt.

部分原因是糖、脂肪和盐的组合。

Partly.

部分。

But there's some kind of overall magic to the texture and the mouthfeel and just the overall palatability of stuff.

但它的质地、口感以及整体适口性都具有某种整体魔力。

Which is always why I say, there's like right and wrong ways to these different diets.

这就是为什么我总是说，这些不同的饮食方式有正确和错误之分。

Like, for example, like there's the right way to do plant-based and then there's like what's in some of these documentaries where they're eating like plant-based mac and cheese.

比如说，有正确的植物性饮食方法，然后就像一些纪录片中的内容，他们吃的是植物性通心粉和奶酪。

And again, I love a good mac and cheese, but that should not form-- that should not be pitched as a healthy diet.

再说一次，我喜欢美味的奶酪通心粉，但这不应该形成——不应该被宣传为健康饮食。

just because it's "plant-based."

只是因为它是“植物性的”。

Because I mean, you're eating a highly processed food that's very palatable and easy to overeat.

因为我的意思是，你吃的是一种高度加工的食物，非常美味，而且很容易吃得过多。

Same thing for keto.

酮也是如此。

You've now got like keto ice creams and you've got keto cookies and all these sorts of things.

你现在有酮冰淇淋、酮饼干和所有这些东西。

And I'm like, yeah, and if you look at them, they actually have more calories than the normal stuff.

我想，是的，如果你看一下它们，它们实际上比普通东西含有更多的卡路里。

And I'm like, yeah, this is completely missing the point here.

我想，是的，这完全没有抓住重点。

Like you're actually just taking yourself-- the whole point of those diets is the reason you tend to lose weight is originally like good luck 10 years ago, doing a keto diet, eating processed food.

就像你实际上只是在考虑自己 - 这些饮食的全部意义在于，你倾向于减肥的原因最初就像 10 年前的好运一样，进行酮饮食，吃加工食品。

Like you just couldn't do it, really.

就像你真的做不到一样。

Now, you can.

现在，你可以了。

But the problem is, it's not going to work because you're going to be still consuming too many calories, because even though it's keto, what are they doing?

但问题是，它不会起作用，因为你仍然会消耗太多卡路里，因为即使它是酮，它们在做什么？

Well, they're trying to make it more palatable, they're trying to make it better mouthfeel, which, I guess, if you're being keto for the sake of being keto, great, but if you have hopes of body composition modification, it's going to really negatively impact.

好吧，他们试图让它更可口，他们试图让它有更好的口感，我想，如果你为了生酮而生酮，那就太好了，但如果你希望改变身体成分，那真的会产生负面影响。

So yes, I think minimizing the amount of processed foods you consume can be important.

所以，是的，我认为尽量减少加工食品的摄入量很重要。

Now that being said, it depends on the individual and their goals.

话虽这么说，这取决于个人和他们的目标。

If your goal is to, for example, build muscle or maintain a high body weight for a sport, for example, like an NFL offensive lineman or something of that nature, or if you're-- I worked with an NBA team, they were kind of-- I can't disclose anything, but they were looking at drafting a certain player.

例如，如果你的目标是为了一项运动而锻炼肌肉或保持较高的体重，例如，像 NFL 进攻前锋或类似性质的人，或者如果你——我与一支 NBA 球队合作，他们有点——我不能透露任何信息，但他们正在考虑选拔某个球员。

And like for them, processed foods may actually be a tool.

和他们一样，加工食品实际上可能是一种工具。

But those become much easier to hit when you have higher calories.

但当你的卡路里含量较高时，这些就会变得更容易实现。

So if you're eating 4,000 calories a day for whatever goal you have, you're probably going to have some left over and like good luck eating 4,000 calories from minimally processed foods, quite frankly, you'll be miserable because you're going to have such gut feel that you're going to feel like you can't even move.

因此，如果你每天摄入 4,000 卡路里的热量，无论你的目标是什么，你可能都会剩下一些，而且如果运气好的话，你会从最低限度加工的食物中摄入 4,000 卡路里的热量，坦率地说，你会很痛苦，因为你会感觉自己甚至无法动弹。

And so again, now, it becomes OK, well, is there something inherent to that food processing?

那么，现在，问题又变得确定了，那么，食品加工过程中是否存在固有的东西呢？

Is there something that we can pick out that we know, OK, well, this is going to be a negative effect on health, even like body composition stuff aside.

我们是否可以找出一些我们知道的东西，好吧，好吧，这将对健康产生负面影响，即使除了身体成分之外。

And I would say, there's not really great evidence of that so far.

我想说，到目前为止还没有真正有力的证据。

And a great example of that is sugar.

一个很好的例子就是糖。

I mean, I actually just wrote a really long article on my website about why I think sugar was not the root cause of the obesity epidemic.

我的意思是，我实际上刚刚在我的网站上写了一篇很长的文章，解释为什么我认为糖不是肥胖流行的根本原因。

And you mentioned sugar intake in the last 20 years has actually gone down a little bit.

你提到过去 20 年糖的摄入量实际上有所下降。

So it's not a direct measurement.

所以这不是直接测量。

But it has been validated in a few different studies.

但它已在一些不同的研究中得到验证。

We know that oil consumption has gone up.

我们知道石油消耗量增加了。

Like that that's, yeah.

就这样，是的。

That's one of the big ones.

这是其中最重要的一个。

And this forms the crux of-- like, the seed oils are like the root of--

这形成了关键——就像种子油就像——的根一样

I think the data seems to suggest that calorie intake is still increasing.

我认为数据似乎表明卡路里摄入量仍在增加。

And the other thing to keep in mind is, even if it's plateaued, it's still at a high enough level that obesity is probably going to continue to increase up to a point where it'll probably plateau if calories have plateaued.

另一件要记住的事情是，即使它处于稳定状态，它仍然处于足够高的水平，以至于肥胖可能会继续增加到一个点，如果卡路里已经稳定下来，肥胖可能会达到稳定水平。

But you had to run and do your pushups with everybody else or play volleyball in your regular school day clothes.

但你必须穿着平时上学的衣服和其他人一起跑步、做俯卧撑或打排球。

So my understanding is that, physical education is not part of the basic education any longer.

所以我的理解是，体育不再是基础教育的一部分。

People insert the judgment, which is, you're lazy, you're a sloth, or whatever it is.

人们会插入这样的判断：你很懒，你是个树懒，或者其他什么。

And I think there's a lot of people out there who actually think that, I actually remember talking to somebody who was like, well, I would never hire an obese person for a job because it's just obvious that they're lazy.

我认为有很多人实际上认为，我实际上记得和一个人交谈，他说，好吧，我永远不会雇用一个肥胖的人来做工作，因为很明显他们很懒。

And I just remember going, are you serious?

我只记得去了，你是认真的吗？

Like, there are plenty of very, very smart high-achieving people who are obese.

比如，有很多非常非常聪明、成就斐然的人却肥胖。

And like it's not-- this is what happens when you just put people in buckets.

事实并非如此——当你把人们放在桶里时就会发生这种情况。

People are much more complicated than this.

人的情况比这复杂得多。

Yes.

是的。

There is some personal responsibility.

有一些个人责任。

But then when you look through the data and you take-- there was a study done in obese women where they found that women who were obese were 50% more likely to have had some form of sexual assault trauma in their past.

但当你查看数据时，你会发现——一项针对肥胖女性的研究发现，肥胖女性过去遭受过某种形式性侵犯创伤的可能性要高出 50%。

We know that people from lower income areas are more prone to be obese.

我们知道来自低收入地区的人更容易肥胖。

There's several people who have a higher ACE score, I believe, which of measures like traumatic childhood events.

我相信，有几个人的 ACE 得分更高，其中包括童年创伤事件等指标。

I believe, there was a study showing they're more likely to be obese.

我相信，有一项研究表明他们更有可能肥胖。

So there's-- yes, it is an energy imbalance problem, but just saying, eat less, move more, that's like telling broke people, well, just earn more money than you spend.

所以，是的，这是一个能量不平衡的问题，但只是说，少吃，多动，这就像告诉破产的人，好吧，赚的钱比花的多。

It's technically right, but it's very unhelpful.

从技术上来说这是正确的，但是却没有什么帮助。

What is more helpful is to describe and implement the habits and behaviors that will allow them to achieve that.

更有用的是描述并实施使他们能够实现这一目标的习惯和行为。

So I realized we go off track a little bit, but circling back to sugar, circa 2005, I believe that sugar was fattening and bad for your health independent of any other variable.

所以我意识到我们有点偏离了轨道，但回到糖，大约在 2005 年，我相信糖会让人发胖，并且对健康有害，与任何其他变量无关。

So independent risk factor.

所以独立的危险因素。

And again, I want to be very clear about what independent means.

再次，我想非常清楚独立的含义。

Independent means independent of all of the variables.

独立意味着独立于所有变量。

This thing is bad for your health and body composition.

这东西对你的健康和身体成分有害。

And they saw some really weird things happen in the liver with lipogenesis and all this kind of stuff.

他们看到肝脏中发生了一些非常奇怪的事情，包括脂肪生成和所有类似的东西。

And the other professor is saying to him, yeah, it's pretty obvious that high fructose corn syrup is fattening.

另一位教授对他说，是的，很明显高果糖玉米糖浆会让人发胖。

And this professor who had done this research said, yeah, because it's people overeat.

这位做过这项研究的教授说，是的，因为人们吃得过多。

And he's like, don't you think there's something inherent to it?

他说，你不觉得这里面有什么内在的东西吗？

And he said, no, I think it's just calories.

他说，不，我认为这只是卡路里。

People are eating too many calories.

人们摄入了过多的卡路里。

He's like, we did a proof of concept looking at could we-- like, try eating 70% of your daily calories from fructose.

他说，我们做了一个概念验证，看看我们是否可以尝试从果糖中摄入每日热量的 70%。

You actually can't do it.

你实际上做不到。

High fructose, corn syrup is only 55% fructose.

高果糖，玉米糖浆仅含55%果糖。

So if you ate nothing but high fructose, corn syrup, you would still not get to this level that they fed in this study.

因此，如果您只吃高果糖、玉米糖浆，您仍然达不到他们在本研究中喂食的水平。

So that got me kind of like questioning my beliefs about it.

所以这让我有点质疑我对此的信念。

So then I went through and I said, OK, look, let's take out the epidemiology.

然后我就说，好吧，让我们拿出流行病学数据。

Not that epidemiology is useless, but people who eat more sugar are also likely to eat more calories.

并不是说流行病学毫无用处，而是吃更多糖的人也可能摄入更多卡路里。

So then I looked for the randomized controlled trials where they match calories and vary the amount of sugar.

然后我寻找了随机对照试验，其中它们匹配卡路里并改变糖的量。

And it doesn't seem to make a difference.

这似乎没有什么区别。

At least from fat loss or fat gain--

至少从减脂或增脂来看——

Well, because fruit has fiber with it.

嗯，因为水果含有纤维。

So I started to believe, based on the data I was looking at, that high sugar intake was not the problem per se.

因此，根据我所查看的数据，我开始相信高糖摄入量本身并不是问题。

The problem was that high sugary foods, typically, are very low in fiber.

问题是高糖食品的纤维含量通常很低。

But if you're getting enough fiber, is sugar a problem?

但如果你摄入了足够的纤维，糖分还会有问题吗？

So there was a classic study by Surwit in 1997.

于是就有了Surwit在1997年的一项经典研究。

I think it's still the best studies of this day looking at this.

我认为这仍然是当今最好的研究。

And I know those people who say, well, it was done in 1997.

我知道有些人会说，嗯，这是 1997 年完成的。

It has no relevance.

它没有相关性。

You know, I know, if it's a good study, it's a good study.

你知道，我知道，如果这是一项好的研究，那就是一项好的研究。

So it doesn't seem to matter for body composition in terms of sugar per se.

因此，就糖本身而言，身体成分似乎并不重要。

Then they also looked at some biomarkers of health like blood lipids and blood sugar and some other things.

然后他们还研究了一些健康的生物标志物，如血脂和血糖以及其他一些东西。

Again, there was no real differences.

同样，没有真正的差异。

The only difference was-- so all their biomarkers improved in both groups.

唯一的区别是——所以两组的所有生物标志物都有所改善。

The only real difference was a small difference in LDL.

唯一真正的差异是低密度脂蛋白（LDL）的微小差异。

So the group eating low sugar had a better improvement slightly in LDL.

因此，低糖饮食组的低密度脂蛋白水平略有改善。

But that's probably because they were eating more fiber.

但这可能是因为他们吃了更多的纤维。

And we know fiber can bind to cholesterol and lower LDL cholesterol.

我们知道纤维可以与胆固醇结合并降低低密度脂蛋白胆固醇。

So now, I want to caveat this.

所以现在，我想警告这一点。

Sugar probably doesn't have any positive health effects.

糖可能对健康没有任何积极影响。

So there's that.

所以就是这样。

And nutrition is an exchange.

而营养是一种交换。

If you're eating one thing, you're not eating another thing, right?

如果你吃一种东西，你就不会吃另一种东西，对吗？

So but what I would tell people is, focus probably less on sugar, focus more on fiber.

所以我要告诉人们的是，少关注糖，多关注纤维。

So if you're eating 30, 40, 50, 60 grams of fiber a day, but your sugar is, 80, 90 grams, I would not be that worried about it, especially, if you're controlling calories as well.

因此，如果你每天吃 30、40、50、60 克纤维，但你的糖含量是 80、90 克，我就不会那么担心，特别是如果你也控制卡路里的话。

What I would be worried about is if you're eating just a decent amount of calories and not getting enough fiber and in general, right?

我担心的是，如果你只摄入了适量的卡路里，却没有摄入足够的纤维，一般来说，对吗？

And even in studies, there's a few meta analyzes out now looking at isoenergetic exchange of different carbohydrates with sugar carbohydrates.

即使在研究中，现在也有一些荟萃分析着眼于不同碳水化合物与糖类碳水化合物的等能交换。

So fructose and glucose and sucrose.

所以果糖、葡萄糖和蔗糖。

Now, why is this important?

现在，为什么这很重要？

Well, again, if you're not equate-- when I say isoenergetic, that means equal in energy, equal in calories.

好吧，再说一遍，如果你不相等——当我说等能量时，这意味着能量相等，卡路里相等。

So basically, when they exchange either sucrose or glucose or fructose for other forms of carbohydrate, do they see differences in these markers of health?

所以基本上，当他们用蔗糖、葡萄糖或果糖交换其他形式的碳水化合物时，他们是否看到这些健康标志的差异？

Like HbA1c, fasting blood glucose, blood lipids, with rare exceptions, and I can't remember all the data points exactly.

像 HbA1c、空腹血糖、血脂，除了极少数例外，我无法准确记住所有数据点。

But the take home is, doesn't really seem to make a difference?

但带回家的是，似乎真的没有什么区别吗？

Now, for anybody out there, straw man is my argument, I am not advocating for sugar consumption.

现在，对于任何人来说，稻草人是我的论点，我并不是提倡吃糖。

But I think it's important for people to not create weird associations in their minds because one of the things I've observed, especially, in the fitness industry, is when people feel like they can't eat something-- it's one thing if you say, I am choosing not to eat this just because I'm choosing to.

但我认为人们不要在脑海中产生奇怪的联想，因为我观察到的一件事，特别是在健身行业，是当人们感觉他们不能吃东西时——如果你说，我选择不吃这个只是因为我选择吃，这是一回事。

But it's a very different thing when you're purposely restricting because you feel like something is bad.

但当你因为感觉有些事情不好而故意限制时，情况就完全不同了。

And this-- I mean, you know the human brain is, in many ways, amazing and in many ways, really dumb.

我的意思是，你知道人类大脑在很多方面都是令人惊奇的，但在很多方面又非常愚蠢。

So when you purposely try to restrict something, what tends to happen is you're more prone to binge on it.

因此，当你故意尝试限制某件事时，往往会发生你更容易暴饮暴食的情况。

So people who will try to-- well, I'm never going to eat you know sugar again or I'm going to try and limit sugar.

所以那些会尝试的人——好吧，我再也不会吃糖了，或者我会尝试限制糖的摄入量。

And this isn't the case for everybody.

并不是每个人都是这样。

But they have actually shown now in studies, people who are purposely restricting a specific nutrient, they tend to crave more of that nutrient.

但他们现在在研究中实际上表明，故意限制某种特定营养素的人往往​​会渴望更多该营养素。

And if they do get exposed to it, they're more likely to have what's called a disinhibition reflex, which is basically a binge response.

如果他们确实接触到它，他们更有可能出现所谓的去抑制反射，这基本上是一种暴食反应。

Because the thinking goes, well, this is bad, and there's no context on dosage making the poison.

因为人们的想法是，嗯，这很糟糕，而且没有关于剂量产生毒药的背景。

This is just bad in general.

总的来说，这很糟糕。

So if I have it, I've already screwed up.

所以，如果我拥有它，我就已经搞砸了。

I might as well just have as much as I want.

我也可以只拥有我想要的东西。

And I like Spencer Nadolsky's comparison to this.

我喜欢斯宾塞·纳多尔斯基对此的比较。

That's like getting a flat and then going out and slashing your other three tires because you might as well.

这就像轮胎漏气了，然后出去砍掉你的其他三个轮胎，因为你也可以。

So I really-- I try to come from that perspective of, I've seen so many people struggle with, maybe, not an eating disorder, but disordered eating patterns because of these associations they've made in their mind.

所以我真的——我试图从这个角度出发，我看到很多人在与饮食失调作斗争，也许不是饮食失调，而是饮食模式紊乱，因为他们在脑海中建立了这些联系。

And so that's why I'm so pedantic and a stickler about saying, OK, yes, it's a good idea to eat mentally processed food and try to avoid processed foods.

所以这就是为什么我如此迂腐和坚持说，好吧，是的，吃精神加工食品是个好主意，并尽量避免加工食品。

But not because processed foods are bad per se, but what the outcome tends to be from a lot of processed food consumption, which is overconsuming calories and then therefore energy toxicity negatively contributing to your health.

但这并不是因为加工食品本身不好，而是因为大量食用加工食品往往会导致热量消耗过多，从而产生能量毒性，从而对您的健康产生负面影响。

And let me just, for the record, be very clear.

为了记录在案，请允许我非常清楚地说明这一点。

I have long ingested foods with artificial sweeteners.

我长期摄入含有人工甜味剂的食物。

So throughout graduate school, I didn't have the best habits.

所以在整个研究生学习过程中，我并没有养成最好的习惯。

They're healthier now than they were back then.

他们现在比以前更健康了。

But I would drink a Diet Coke or two per day.

但我每天会喝一两杯健怡可乐。

I still have the occasional Diet Coke, I'm not completely averse to drink something that has artificial sweetener.

我仍然偶尔喝健怡可乐，我并不完全反对喝含有人造甜味剂的东西。

Although, I do avoid sucralose for reasons that maybe I can get into a little bit later.

尽管如此，我确实避免使用三氯蔗糖，原因也许我稍后可以讨论。

But a lot of the things I consume contain stevia, which is not artificial but it is a plant-based non-caloric-- or low caloric sweetener.

但我吃的很多东西都含有甜叶菊，它不是人造的，而是一种植物性无热量或低热量甜味剂。

And I don't have a problem with that.

我对此没有意见。

I became very interested in artificial sweeteners because of the animal data pointing to the idea that they may disrupt the gut microbiome, and then disrupt the gut microbiome, as you pointed out, is a very broad statement.

我对人工甜味剂非常感兴趣，因为动物数据表明它们可能会破坏肠道微生物组，然后破坏肠道微生物组，正如您所指出的，这是一个非常广泛的说法。

We don't really know the percentage of lactobacillus, exobacilius, or whatever ilius in there-- they all seem to end in ilius-- is ideal.

我们真的不知道其中的乳酸菌、外杆菌或任何 ilius 的百分比——它们似乎都以 ilius 结尾——是理想的。

And in fact, a lot of these companies that are having people send in their stool samples for analysis of the microbiome.

事实上，很多这样的公司都让人们发送粪便样本来分析微生物组。

I mean, take note, we don't really know what a healthy microbiome looks like, but we know what an unhealthy microbiome might look like.

我的意思是，请注意，我们并不真正知道健康的微生物组是什么样子，但我们知道不健康的微生物组可能是什么样子。

And it's one that doesn't have a lot of diversity in there.

而且它的多样性并不多。

So I was interested in that, then there's the recent human study which we should definitely get into.

所以我对此很感兴趣，然后是最近的人类研究，我们绝对应该参与其中。

But I was mostly interested in artificial sweeteners for the reason that there is this food conditioning effect.

但我最感兴趣的是人造甜味剂，因为它具有食物调节作用。

And you see it in animals and you see it in humans that if you ingest-- well, coffee is a really good example.

你可以在动物和人类身上看到这一点，如果你摄入——嗯，咖啡就是一个很好的例子。

Coffee doesn't actually taste good folks, even though I like it.

尽管我喜欢咖啡，但咖啡的味道实际上并不好。

But when you taste coffee for the first time, most people think it's bitter and disgusting.

但当你第一次品尝咖啡时，大多数人都会觉得它又苦又恶心。

Most, everybody, like 95% of people say, this doesn't taste good.

大多数人，就像 95% 的人说的那样，这味道不好。

So it's a powerful example, in my opinion, of the food conditioning effect.

因此，在我看来，这是食物调理作用的一个有力的例子。

So it's like a Pavlovian thing.

所以这就像巴甫洛夫的事情。

Instead of salivating, you crave.

你不是垂涎欲滴，而是渴望。

You and I connected over this study on social media.

你和我在社交媒体上通过这项研究建立了联系。

You pointed out that the design, the study wasn't superb.

你指出设计和研究并不出色。

There was co-consumption of glucose, which made it complicated.

由于葡萄糖的共同消耗，这使得事情变得复杂。

We can go into that.

我们可以深入探讨这一点。

But the reason I'm spouting off all this context is, artificial sweeteners are many things.

但我滔滔不绝地谈论所有这些内容的原因是，人工甜味剂有很多东西。

So I'd like to talk about their effects on blood sugar in the acute sense and according to what we might ingest them with and how they might be changing blood sugar regulation at the level of brain and/or body.

因此，我想谈谈它们对血糖的急性影响，并根据我们可能摄入的物质以及它们如何改变大脑和/或身体水平的血糖调节。

And then the gut microbiome data, I think, are interesting enough to discuss.

我认为肠道微生物组数据很有趣，值得讨论。

And I have changed my view on artificial sweeteners based on what you've taught me.

根据你教给我的内容，我改变了对人造甜味剂的看法。

So this is a case where I've completely changed my view, which is that, now, I don't have any problem with them whatsoever based on the current data, which is not to say that I'm gulping down cup fulls of sucralose, but I feel OK ingesting some stevia and some aspartame and I'm not too worried about it.

所以在这种情况下，我完全改变了我的观点，也就是说，现在，根据当前的数据，我对它们没有任何问题，这并不是说我吞下了满满一杯的三氯蔗糖，但我觉得摄入一些甜叶菊和一些阿斯巴甜感觉很好，我不太担心。

In the meta analysis, there was actually a recent network meta analysis looking at markers of adiposity, HbA1c, a bunch of different health markers, and when you substitute, we'll call it non-nutritive sweeteners, and stevia is not artificial.

在荟萃分析中，实际上最近有一个网络荟萃分析着眼于肥胖标志物、HbA1c、一堆不同的健康标志物，当你替换时，我们将其称为非营养性甜味剂，而甜叶菊不是人造的。

But so when you substitute NNS for the sugar-sweetened beverages, you see improvements in a lot of different things.

但是，当您用 NNS 替代含糖饮料时，您会看到许多不同方面的改进。

What was really interesting about this network meta analysis was they also looked at water substitution in place of sugar-sweetened beverages.

这个网络元分析真正有趣的是他们还研究了用水替代含糖饮料。

And the effect wasn't as powerful as-- and these are randomized controlled trials.

而且效果并不那么强大——而且这些都是随机对照试验。

So they then based on-- a network meta analysis is where you can compare to things that didn't get compared directly.

因此，他们基于网络元分析，您可以在其中与未直接比较的事物进行比较。

So there's not many studies comparing NNS versus water directly.

因此，直接比较 NNS 与水的研究并不多。

But if you have a common comparator, so if you compare A to B and B gets compared to C, you compare A to C based on how they interacted with B.

但如果你有一个通用的比较器，那么如果你将 A 与 B 进行比较，然后将 B 与 C 进行比较，你就会根据 A 与 C 与 B 的交互方式来进行比较。

Butchering it a little, bit but that's the crux of a network meta analysis.

稍微删掉一点，但这就是网络元分析的关键。

So they looked at NNS versus water and found that actually, in NNS was slightly better for improving adiposity.

因此，他们对比了 NNS 和水，发现实际上 NNS 在改善肥胖方面稍好一些。

And so going to having something like intermediate is a little bit better.

因此，拥有像中级这样的东西会更好一些。

Like, there's a lot wrapped up in this.

就像，这里面包含了很多东西。

But these are the randomized controlled trials, which are a little bit more tightly controlled, which I tend to default to a little bit more than I do the epidemiology, which epidemiology is just so messy, because sure, non-nutritive sweetener consumption may be associated with different things, but there's also a whole other set of lifestyle and habits that are tied up in that.

但这些是随机对照试验，控制得更严格一些，我倾向于默认它比流行病学要多一点，流行病学实在是太混乱了，因为当然，非营养性甜味剂的消费可能与不同的事情有关，但还有一整套其他的生活方式和习惯与之相关。

So I tend to hang my hat a little bit more on the randomized controlled trials.

所以我倾向于更多地关注随机对照试验。

So understanding that.

所以理解这一点。

OK.

好的。

Now, all things being equal, understanding that this is a tool that may help some people, and whenever I post about non-nutritive sweeteners in the comments, there's always one or two or three people who say, all I did was cut out soda.

现在，在所有条件相同的情况下，了解这是一个可以帮助某些人的工具，每当我在评论中发布有关非营养甜味剂的信息时，总会有一两个或三个人说，我所做的只是戒掉了苏打水。

And I drank diet soda instead, and I lost 50 pounds.

我改喝无糖汽水，结果减掉了 50 磅。

Or I lost 75 pounds.

或者我减掉了 75 磅。

I even had 1%.

我什至有1%。

I lost 100 pounds.

我减掉了 100 磅。

That's the only thing I did.

这是我唯一做的事。

So again, the ranking of what I'm worried about can change depending on the specific situation.

再说一次，我担心的排名可能会根据具体情况而变化。

Now, let's take somebody like me who's lean and doesn't really have any health problems that I'm aware of.

现在，让我们以像我这样的人为例，他身材苗条，并且没有任何我所知道的健康问题。

What about artificial sweeteners for me?

人造甜味剂对我来说怎么样？

Well, for me, I got using them because of bodybuilding contest prep, because it was about the only appetite suppressant that worked for me.

好吧，对我来说，我因为健美比赛准备而使用它们，因为它是唯一对我有效的食欲抑制剂。

But do I think that they are healthful?

但我认为它们健康吗？

Probably not.

可能不会。

Do I think they're unhealthy?

我认为它们不健康吗？

I would say based on the current data, I don't think that they're unhealthy.

我想说，根据目前的数据，我不认为它们不健康。

Now, the information on blood glucose.

现在，关于血糖的信息。

So there's-- some of the problems with some of these meta analyzes or these reviews is they lump all the non-nutritive sweeteners together and then they may say, well, there's no effect on this or there's an effect on this.

因此，这些荟萃分析或评论的一些问题是，他们将所有非营养性甜味剂放在一起，然后他们可能会说，好吧，对此没有影响，或者对此有影响。

Well, the problem is these are different molecules and they can interact differently.

好吧，问题是这些是不同的分子，它们的相互作用也不同。

Aspartame, very clearly, seems to have no effect on blood sugar or insulin.

很明显，阿斯巴甜似乎对血糖或胰岛素没有影响。

That has been repeatedly shown.

这已被反复证明。

Stevia doesn't appear to have much effect.

甜叶菊似乎没有太大作用。

Saccharin and sucralose, the jury is mixed.

糖精和三氯蔗糖，评委们褒贬不一。

Now, there was the study that we first connected on which, I think, their primary outcome measure was actually they were looking at the sweet taste.

现在，我们首先进行了一项研究，我认为他们的主要结果指标实际上是他们正在观察甜味。

Like how it affected sweet taste.

就像它如何影响甜味一样。

So what they did was, the group that was getting the sucralose was also paired with maltodextrin.

所以他们所做的是，将三氯蔗糖与麦芽糖糊精配对。

The control group was getting sucrose, which is an appropriate way to compare the sweet taste because maltodextrin is not as sweet as sucrose.

对照组服用蔗糖，这是比较甜味的合适方法，因为麦芽糖糊精不如蔗糖甜。

So when you're trying to combine sucralose, which is already sweet, with another form of carbohydrate, you'd want something less sweet compared to your control.

因此，当您尝试将已经很甜的三氯蔗糖与另一种形式的碳水化合物结合起来时，您会想要比对照甜度更低的东西。

But for the outcome measure of insulin and blood glucose, probably, not as appropriate because we know maltodextrin has a much higher glycemic index than sucrose.

但对于胰岛素和血糖的结果测量，可能不太合适，因为我们知道麦芽糖糊精的血糖指数比蔗糖高得多。

I mean, there's a range everywhere.

我的意思是，到处都有一个范围。

But it just seemed like there's something about sweet taste that if taken to the extreme might be able to impact blood sugar.

但似乎甜味有些东西，如果吃得太极端，可能会影响血糖。

This has impacted my behavior.

这已经影响了我的行为。

And I try to avoid really sweet things, unless they're exceptionally delicious or the occasion calls for them because I do think that it increases my craving for sweet things.

我尽量避免吃真正甜的东西，除非它们特别美味或者场合需要它们，因为我确实认为这会增加我对甜食的渴望。

But again, is it the most healthy thing they could do?

但话又说回来，这是他们能做的最健康的事情吗？

And I think that's what tends to get asked.

我认为这就是人们常问的问题。

We don't know.

我们不知道。

Is it healthier than water?

它比水更健康吗？

Probably not maybe as healthy as it.

可能没有它那么健康。

Who knows?

谁知道？

But I really make all those caveats because you don't want to have people who could use this as a tool to think, well, no, I can't do this because it's actually bad for me.

但我确实提出了所有这些警告，因为你不希望有人可以使用它作为工具来思考，好吧，不，我不能这样做，因为这实际上对我不利。

If it helps you lose 50 pounds or 75 pounds or whatever it is, trust me, it's not bad for you, right?

如果它能帮助你减掉 50 磅或 75 磅或其他什么，相信我，这对你来说还不错，对吧？

Now, what was interesting is when I went into the species that changed, the species that changed the most compared to the control was a species called-- I'm going to butcher the name, but it's like Blautia coccoides, I think it's called.

现在，有趣的是，当我研究发生变化的物种时，与对照相比，变化最大的物种是一个叫做——我要毁掉这个名字的物种，但它就像Blautia coccoides，我认为它的名字是这样的。

So I said, well, based on that study, you can actually argue that maybe sucralose actually improves the gut microbiome.

所以我说，根据这项研究，你实际上可以说三氯蔗糖实际上可以改善肠道微生物组。

Now, again, I'm not making that claim.

现在，我再说一遍，我不会这么说。

Because we have a hard time understanding what a healthy microbiome looks like already.

因为我们已经很难理解健康的微生物群是什么样子了。

This last study that came out, my biggest take-home was I think it's safe to say that some of these non-nutritive sweeteners are not metabolically inert.

最后一项研究结果给我带来的最大收获是，我认为可以肯定地说，其中一些非营养性甜味剂并不是代谢惰性的。

There are some effects.

有一些影响。

Now, are those effects good, bad, or neutral I think has yet to be fully elucidated.

现在，我认为这些影响是好的、坏的还是中性的还没有完全阐明。

Now, I focused more on the blood-glucose responses in my analysis.

现在，我在分析中更多地关注血糖反应。

So in that 10-week study, they did oral-glucose tolerance test.

因此，在那项为期 10 周的研究中，他们进行了口服葡萄糖耐量测试。

And their conclusion I didn't really feel like fit their data.

我觉得他们的结论并不符合他们的数据。

So their conclusion was that-- and again, I think it was sucralose-- that it elevated blood glucose.

所以他们的结论是——我再次认为是三氯蔗糖——它会升高血糖。

And this is where statistics can get kind of tricky.

这就是统计数据变得有点棘手的地方。

So my take-home was the area under the curve, the incremental area under the curve, which is looking at basically the entire glucose response, was not different between the control and the sucralose group.

所以我的结论是曲线下面积，曲线下增量面积，基本上是整个葡萄糖反应，在对照组和三氯蔗糖组之间没有差异。

To me, that's the biggest take-home.

对我来说，这是最大的收获。

There was one time point at the end of the study in the sucralose group, the 30-minute time point, that was statistically significantly higher blood glucose than the control group.

在研究结束时，三氯蔗糖组有一个时间点，即 30 分钟时间点，其血糖在统计学上显着高于对照组。

It's kind of one of those things where I go, OK, it was one time point.

这是我去过的事情之一，好吧，那是一个时间点。

It's statistically significant.

它具有统计显着性。

But even then, we've seen things be statistically significant that end up being data artifacts because they're not reproduced.

但即便如此，我们仍然看到一些具有统计意义的事情最终成为数据伪影，因为它们没有被复制。

So I'm not saying that's what's happening here.

所以我并不是说这就是这里发生的事情。

But again, the overall area under the curve was not different.

但同样，曲线下的总体面积并没有不同。

So to me, that was the biggest take-home.

所以对我来说，这是最大的收获。

So there was actually two arms to the study.

所以这项研究实际上有两个方面。

One was the human arm.

其中之一是人类的手臂。

One was the animal arm.

其中之一是动物手臂。

I focused much more on the human side of it.

我更加关注人性的一面。

So basically, this was a two-week study.

基本上，这是一项为期两周的研究。

And the really unique aspect of this, which I think is both a strength and a weakness, they had almost 1,400 people apply for this study.

其中真正独特的方面，我认为这既是优点也是缺点，他们有近 1,400 人申请这项研究。

And they only had 120, I think, that actually went into it.

我想他们实际上只有 120 个。

Because they did a very detailed food analysis of these folks.

因为他们对这些人进行了非常详细的食物分析。

All of these people said that they avoided artificial sweeteners or didn't consume them.

所有这些人都表示他们避免使用人造甜味剂或不食用它们。

And I think people don't realize how ubiquitous sweeteners are.

我认为人们没有意识到甜味剂是多么普遍。

So I think that that's a strength.

所以我认为这是一种力量。

It's also a weakness.

这也是一个弱点。

And I want to be really careful because I think people took my words a little bit too far, which means I probably didn't do a good job of being nuanced enough.

我想非常小心，因为我认为人们对我的话有点过分了，这意味着我可能没有做得足够细致。

There is the possibility for a placebo effect here.

这里可能存在安慰剂效应。

So to me, if somebody has gone through that much painstaking care to avoid artificial sweeteners, it's likely they have a preconceived notion that those are bad for you, because they're difficult to avoid.

所以对我来说，如果有人煞费苦心地避免使用人工甜味剂，他们很可能有一种先入为主的观念，认为这些对你有害，因为它们很难避免。

Yes, it's possible if they're eating a very minimally processed diet that they're just not exposed to them.

是的，如果他们吃的是加工程度极低的饮食，他们可能只是没有接触到它们。

And that's very true, as well.

这也是事实。

But the other thing that the researchers acknowledged was they weren't able to blind the study.

但研究人员承认的另一件事是他们无法对研究进行盲法。

Because if you've never had an artificial sweetener before, you're only used to regular sugar and you have an artificial sweetener, you know.

因为如果您以前从未使用过人工甜味剂，那么您只习惯于普通糖，并且您有人工甜味剂，您知道。

But again, when we look at the blood glucose data, there's-- and I'm not saying this is what happened.

但同样，当我们查看血糖数据时，我并不是说这就是发生的事情。

I want to be very clear.

我想说得很清楚。

I'm not saying this is what happened.

我并不是说这就是发生的事情。

I'm saying it's possible this happened.

我是说这件事有可能发生。

And so this is why we need more studies to verify.

所以这就是为什么我们需要更多的研究来验证。

If these people had a preconceived notion that artificial sweeteners were bad for them, it's possible, knowing they're ingesting artificial sweeteners that they could have had a blood glucose response.

如果这些人有一种先入为主的观念，认为人工甜味剂对他们有害，那么有可能知道他们正在摄入人工甜味剂，他们可能会产生血糖反应。

Now, my pushback on my own point there would be, then we should have expected to see it in all the non-nutritive sweeteners, which they didn't.

现在，我对自己观点的反驳是存在的，那么我们应该期望在所有非营养性甜味剂中看到它，但他们没有。

It was just in sucralose and saccharin.

它只是含有三氯蔗糖和糖精。

But again, to me-- and I'm being ticky tacky.

但对我来说，我还是很俗气。

And again, I know all studies are limited by funding.

再说一遍，我知道所有研究都受到资金的限制。

So I think overall, this was a great study.

所以我认为总的来说，这是一项很棒的研究。

But I would have liked to have seen them monitor the oral-glucose tolerance tests to administer it.

但我希望看到他们监测口服葡萄糖耐量测试来进行治疗。

But again, I think we can clearly say it's not inert, right?

但我想我们可以清楚地说它不是惰性的，对吧？

Now, how much emphasis we put on that, on a two-week study, I still will say, OK, maybe if you're worried, don't consume sucralose.

现在，在为期两周的研究中，我们对此给予了多大的重视，我仍然会说，好吧，也许如果你担心，就不要食用三氯蔗糖。

But if you're 100 pounds overweight and you want to use some sucralose as a replacement to help you lose weight, I would say, don't let this study deter you from doing that because the net effect is still going to be more positive than you not losing the weight, right?

但是，如果您超重 100 磅，并且想使用一些三氯蔗糖作为替代品来帮助您减肥，我想说，不要让这项研究阻止您这样做，因为净效果仍然会比您不减肥更积极，对吗？

So if it's a tool that helps you, fine.

因此，如果它是一个可以帮助您的工具，那就太好了。

But I do hold open the idea that, well, there could be negative effects from it, as well.

但我确实持开放态度，即它也可能产生负面影响。

But again, we're looking at, what is the overall outcome?

但我们再次关注的是，总体结果是什么？

And then they examined some of the different things that were increased with these different sweeteners.

然后他们检查了这些不同甜味剂增加的一些不同物质。

And again, this word gets messy because one of the things they saw was a big increase in butyrate production from the change in the gut microbiome presumably.

再说一遍，这个词变得很混乱，因为他们看到的一件事是肠道微生物组的变化可能导致丁酸盐产量大幅增加。

Well, as we discussed earlier, butyrate's actually associated with positive outcomes in terms of insulin sensitivity, inflammation, and some other things.

嗯，正如我们之前讨论的，丁酸盐实际上与胰岛素敏感性、炎症和其他一些方面的积极结果相关。

So I want to be real cautious before people say, well, if there's a change in the microbiome, it must be a bad change.

因此，在人们说“如果微生物组发生变化，那一定是一个糟糕的变化”之前，我想保持谨慎。

We don't know.

我们不知道。

It's possible.

这是有可能的。

And again, if we have 10 more studies come out and start to show this, then I will start to shift my personal opinion of artificial sweeteners.

再说一次，如果我们有另外 10 项研究出来并开始证明这一点，那么我将开始改变我个人对人造甜味剂的看法。

I think it's a common scenario.

我认为这是一个常见的场景。

A number of people want to know, what is the healthiest way to approach a rapid weight loss?

许多人想知道快速减肥的最健康方法是什么？

And here what I think is happening is somebody has an event coming up or they're just tired of being the weight they are, carrying the amount of adipose tissue they are.

我认为正在发生的事情是有人即将发生一件事情，或者他们只是厌倦了自己的体重，厌倦了携带大量的脂肪组织。

And they wanted to know whether or not it is safe to, for instance, lose three pounds a week for a few weeks in anticipation of a wedding or some other event and whether or not straight caloric restriction and increasing activity is the best way to approach that, with the understanding that they may gain back a little afterwards.

例如，他们想知道，为了参加婚礼或其他活动，每周减掉三磅，持续几周是否安全，以及直接限制热量和增加活动是否是实现这一目标的最佳方法，因为他们知道，之后可能会减重一些。

I think ideally they'd like to maintain it afterwards.

我认为理想情况下他们希望事后维护它。

But what do you think of that approach, cutting caloric intake in half, for instance, and then also doubling your physical output?

但是，您如何看待这种方法，例如将热量摄入量减少一半，然后将身体输出量增加一倍？

But again, you're weighing competing things.

但同样，你正在权衡竞争的事物。

So there's the sustainability aspect.

所以还有可持续性方面。

But then there's also-- buy-in is huge for sustainability.

但还有一点——支持对于可持续发展来说是巨大的。

So for a lot of overweight or obese people, if they start a diet and they don't see something quickly, they bail on it because it's not working.

因此，对于许多超重或肥胖的人来说，如果他们开始节食但没有很快看到效果，他们就会放弃节食，因为它不起作用。

Whereas if they see some rapid results pretty quickly, they buy in even harder.

然而，如果他们很快看到一些立竿见影的结果，他们就会更加坚定地接受。

And so I think that the conversation, especially for if there's any coaches or trainers out there, is just presenting that as the-- one of my favorite lines is there are no solutions.

因此，我认为对话，尤其是如果有教练或培训师的话，只是表明——我最喜欢的台词之一是没有解决方案。

There's only trade-offs.

只有权衡。

I think Thomas Sowell said that.

我想托马斯·索威尔说过这句话。

So you're having a trade-off here.

所以你在这里需要进行权衡。

Yes, you're going to lose fat faster.

是的，你会更快地减掉脂肪。

You might lose lean mass a little bit faster too, which can be a problem.

您可能也会更快地失去瘦体重，这可能是一个问题。

But I will say, the more adipose tissue you have, the more aggressively you can diet without negative consequences.

但我要说的是，你的脂肪组织越多，你就越能积极节食，而不会产生负面后果。

Somebody like me doing a really aggressive diet is not going to be good for my lean mass.

像我这样严格节食的人不会对我的瘦体重有好处。

One, I have a higher lean mass than normal.

第一，我的去脂体重比正常人要高。

Two, I have a lower body fat than normal.

第二，我的体脂比正常人低。

As your body fat goes down, the percentage of weight loss from lean mass goes up.

当你的身体脂肪下降时，瘦体重减轻的百分比就会上升。

So people who are very obese, because they have so much adipose tissue to pull from, there's very little reason for the body to metabolize lean tissue.

因此，非常肥胖的人，因为他们有太多的脂肪组织可供提取，所以身体几乎没有理由代谢瘦肉组织。

Now, that being said, if you go on a-- people misinterpret, like, well, I got an in-body done or a DEXA done and I've lost 2 pounds of lean mass, and they've lost 20 pounds overall.

现在，话虽这么说，如果你继续——人们会误解，比如，好吧，我做了体内检查或 DEXA，我减掉了 2 磅瘦体重，而他们总共减掉了 20 磅。

Well, keep in mind, adipose tissue itself is 13% lean mass.

请记住，脂肪组织本身占瘦肉质量的 13%。

So there's actually a protein component to-- the structural component of the adipose tissue.

所以实际上有一种蛋白质成分——脂肪组织的结构成分。

And it does have some water.

而且它确实有一些水。

So it's about 87% lipid.

所以大约87%是脂质。

But the other part is lean.

但另一部分是瘦的。

So at minimum, you should expect a 13% reduction in lean mass when you diet.

因此，节食后，您的瘦体重至少会减少 13%。

And then when you consider like, you lose body water overall, which registers as lean mass, and you lose your splenic tissues can shrink a little bit.

然后，当您考虑时，您会整体失去体内水分，这被记录为瘦体重，并且您失去的脾组织会稍微收缩。

So it's normal for the average person to lose 25% or 30% of the weight that they lose from "lean mass." But that doesn't mean skeletal muscle tissue.

因此，对于普通人来说，通过“瘦体重”减掉 25% 或 30% 的体重是正常的。但这并不意味着骨骼肌组织。

And again, the more adipose you have, the more aggressively you can approach the diet without really negative long-term consequences to lean mass or your overall health.

再说一次，你的脂肪越多，你就越能积极地进行饮食，而不会对瘦体重或你的整体健康产生真正的长期负面影响。

But balance that with, OK, if I'm going to do this, I need to understand that I'm not going to be dieting this way forever.

但要平衡这一点，好吧，如果我要这样做，我需要明白我不会永远这样节食。

I'm doing this to give myself a boost at the beginning.

我这样做是为了在一开始就激励自己。

And I have to be OK at some point with transitioning to something that's a little bit more sustainable.

我必须在某个时候适应向更可持续的方向过渡。

Because what she was telling me was that if people believe that a food is nutritious for them, then eating less of it registers as more satiating.

因为她告诉我的是，如果人们相信某种食物对他们来说有营养，那么少吃就会让人更饱。

Whereas if people view dieting as a deprivation system, like, oh, dieting is hard, and the food sucks, and it's terrible, well, then they crave all sorts of other things.

然而，如果人们将节食视为一种剥夺系统，比如，哦，节食很难，食物很糟糕，而且很糟糕，那么他们就会渴望各种各样的其他东西。

Whereas they actually observe in their studies where people report reduced craving if they are told, for instance, a chicken breast and broccoli and some olive oil and rice is actually quite nourishing.

然而他们在研究中实际上观察到，如果人们被告知，例如鸡胸肉、西兰花、一些橄榄油和大米实际上非常有营养，那么他们的渴望就会减少。

It's actually really good for you.

实际上这对你来说真的很好。

Then people eat that.

然后人们就吃那个。

And they feel like they've actually eaten more.

他们感觉自己实际上吃得更多了。

The satiety signaling goes up.

饱腹感信号上升。

So it's just a point that Alia made.

所以这只是阿莉亚提出的一个观点。

Those aren't my data.

这些不是我的数据。

But in the end, there aren't many algorithms.

但归根结底，算法并不多。

And we are probably not optimized-- certainly not optimized for our own health because people will eat themselves to death, drug themselves to death, et cetera, simply because something felt good at one point.

我们可能还没有优化——当然没有优化我们自己的健康，因为人们会吃死自己，吸毒死等等，仅仅因为某些东西在某一时刻感觉良好。

It proves your point.

这证明了你的观点。

It's very strange.

这很奇怪。

And actually, Ethan Suplee had a great example of this.

事实上，Ethan Suplee 就是一个很好的例子。

When he was over 500 pounds, he said, the amount of work I had to do to construct my life that I could just live was so much more work than just going to the gym for a couple hours a day.

当他的体重超过 500 磅时，他说，为了构建我能过上的生活，我必须做的工作比每天去健身房几个小时要多得多。

He's like, the gym work is hard.

他说，健身房的工作很辛苦。

He's like, but when I look back at how much work I had to do to sustain that lifestyle versus just going to the gym and restricting calories, he's like, to maintain the lifestyle of being 500 pounds was infinitely more difficult than what I do now.

他说，但是当我回顾我需要做多少工作来维持这种生活方式，而不是去健身房和限制卡路里摄入时，他说，维持 500 磅的生活方式比我现在所做的要困难得多。

And so again, great example.

再说一遍，这是一个很好的例子。

Short term-- hard.

短期——很难。

Going to the gym, calorie restriction.

去健身房，限制卡路里。

Long term, life's easier.

从长远来看，生活会更轻松。

Just a really interesting dichotomy I think about a lot.

这是一个非常有趣的二分法，我思考了很多。

But there are a number of folks out there who are arguing that seed oils are the source of all-- the obesity epidemic--

但也有很多人认为种子油是肥胖流行病的根源。

But are there any data on seed oils?

但是有关于种子油的数据吗？

And here, a good example I think would be canola oil, which comes from the rape seed, that literally was renamed canola oil because rape seed oil is not good marketing.

在这里，我认为一个很好的例子是菜籽油，它来自油菜籽，字面上被重新命名为菜籽油，因为菜籽油不好营销。

But when we look at 1-to-1 replacement with other fats-- if you look at the epidemiology, yeah, you can find some epidemiology showing people who consume more seed oil have more negative health outcomes.

但是，当我们观察与其他脂肪的一对一替代时，如果您查看流行病学，是的，您可以发现一些流行病学表明，食用更多种子油的人对健康产生更多负面影响。

Problem is, again, tied up with a multitude of other behaviors.

问题再次与许多其他行为联系在一起。

And then you can find mechanisms.

然后你就可以找到机制。

And the idea is, well, they're polyunsaturated, which means in the fatty acid chain, there's multiple double bonds, which those double bonds can be oxidized when they're exposed to heat and some other things.

这个想法是，它们是多不饱和的，这意味着在脂肪酸链中，有多个双键，这些双键在暴露于热和其他东西时会被氧化。

And so the idea is, well, when you cook with these things, they make it oxidized.

所以这个想法是，当你用这些东西做饭时，它们会使其氧化。

And that's going to cause inflammation in your body.

这会导致你的身体发炎。

So that's a plausible mechanism.

所以这是一个合理的机制。

So as always, I defer to the human randomized controlled trials.

因此，一如既往，我尊重人体随机对照试验。

And so what you tend to find is when you substitute saturated fats for polyunsaturated fats, it's either neutral or positive in terms of the effects on-- inflammation is basically neutral.

所以你往往会发现，当你用饱和脂肪代替多不饱和脂肪时，它对炎症的影响要么是中性的，要么是积极的——炎症基本上是中性的。

There's some studies that show a positive effect of doing polyunsaturated fats.

有一些研究表明多不饱和脂肪具有积极作用。

But it probably depends on the individual polyunsaturated fat.

但这可能取决于个体的多不饱和脂肪。

And that's the other thing that's difficult because you're categorizing everything in this one bucket.

这是另一件困难的事情，因为你要把所有东西都归入一个桶中。

And there are some differences between individual fatty acids.

而且各个脂肪酸之间也存在一些差异。

Even with saturated fat-- for example, stearic acid doesn't tend to raise LDL cholesterol.

例如，即使含有饱和脂肪，硬脂酸也不会提高低密度脂蛋白胆固醇。

Whereas saturated fat as a whole tends to raise LDL cholesterol.

而饱和脂肪作为一个整体往往会提高低密度脂蛋白胆固醇。

But there are some saturated fats that don't.

但有些饱和脂肪则不然。

So again, we're putting things in buckets.

再说一次，我们把东西放进桶里。

And it's a little more nuanced than that.

比这更微妙一些。

Then if you look at the effects of polyunsaturated fats on markers of cardiovascular disease, again, tends to either be a neutral or positive effect when you substitute saturated fat for polyunsaturated fat.

然后，如果您观察多不饱和脂肪对心血管疾病标志物的影响，那么当您用饱和脂肪代替多不饱和脂肪时，往往会产生中性或积极的影响。

Now, if you want to get into monounsaturated versus polyunsaturated, there's quite a bit of disagreement between the studies.

现在，如果你想了解单不饱和与多不饱和，这些研究之间存在相当大的分歧。

What I would say, based on the human randomized controlled trials, is that you're probably better off consuming monounsaturated and polyunsaturated in place of saturated fat.

我想说的是，根据人体随机对照试验，您可能最好食用单不饱和脂肪和多不饱和脂肪来代替饱和脂肪。

But again, if the idea is, well, that means polyunsaturated are good for me, so I'm just going to dump a bunch of oil on everything and now you're upping your calories, well, that's a negative now because you have to deal with the bigger problem of overall energy toxicity.

但同样，如果这个想法是，那么，这意味着多不饱和对我有好处，所以我只是要在所有东西上倒一堆油，而现在你正在增加你的卡路里，那么，现在这是一个负面因素，因为你必须处理整体能量毒性的更大问题。

So I'm not somebody who likes to demonize individual nutrients.

所以我不是喜欢妖魔化个别营养素的人。

I just haven't seen really compelling evidence that seed oils are the root cause of the problems that are being suggested.

我只是还没有看到真正令人信服的证据表明种子油是所提出问题的根本原因。

And I think this is a good example of whenever there's something that pops up in the fitness industry, there's always the opposite thing that pops up and is the reactionary, extreme reaction to whatever this thing was over here.

我认为这是一个很好的例子，每当健身行业出现一些事情时，总会出现相反的事情，那就是对这里发生的事情的反动、极端反应。

And I think that's what we're seeing with some of the seed oil stuff, is it's mostly people who are trying to espouse the virtues of saturated fat.

我认为这就是我们在一些种子油中看到的情况，大多数人都在试图拥护饱和脂肪的优点。

And listen, I think it's fine to consume some saturated fat.

听着，我认为吃一些饱和脂肪是可以的。

But again, I think limiting it to 7% to 10% of your daily calorie intake is probably wise, again, based on all the consensus of the evidence I've seen.

但同样，根据我所看到的所有证据的共识，我认为将其限制在每日卡路里摄入量的 7% 到 10% 可能是明智的。

And so once again, we're struggling with this.

因此，我们再次陷入困境。

OK, we've got this epidemiology and these mechanisms that sound good.

好的，我们已经了解了流行病学和这些听起来不错的机制。

But then, what actually happens when we do some human randomized controlled trials?

但是，当我们进行一些人体随机对照试验时，实际上会发生什么？

And so far, I just haven't seen the evidence to suggest that seed oils are independently bad for you, independent of the calories they contain.

到目前为止，我还没有看到证据表明种子油对你单独有害，与它们所含的卡路里无关。

I don't think enough people think about that because they are primed, or we are all primed, to think, OK, seed oils might be bad.

我认为没有足够多的人考虑到这一点，因为他们已经准备好，或者我们都已经准备好，认为，好吧，种子油可能不好。

Or artificial sweeteners might be bad.

或者人工甜味剂可能不好。

Or this particular component of blood work might represent something good or bad, without taking into account overall energy toxicity, the toxicity of overconsuming calories, energy.

或者，血液工作的这一特定组成部分可能代表一些好或坏的东西，而不考虑总体能量毒性，即过度消耗卡路里、能量的毒性。

And thank you for pointing out that most of the data point to the fact that saturated fat should make up about no more than 7% to 10% of total daily caloric intake.

感谢您指出，大多数数据都表明饱和脂肪应占每日总热量摄入量的比例不应超过 7% 至 10%。

Is there a lower-end threshold that can be problematic?

是否有一个较低端的门槛可能会出现问题？

For instance, I've noticed that my blood profiles, especially in terms of hormones, improve when I'm getting sufficient saturated fat.

例如，我注意到当我摄入足够的饱和脂肪时，我的血液状况，尤其是激素方面，会得到改善。

Maybe I'm a mutant.

也许我是一个变种人。

But years ago, because I'm a product of growing up in the '90s, I tried a low-fat diet.

但几年前，因为我是90后长大的产物，我尝试过低脂饮食。

It certainly crushed my androgen levels.

它确实降低了我的雄激素水平。

I started adding some butter back in.

我开始加一些黄油回来。

And I was right back in the sweet zone, where I wanted to be.

我又回到了我想去的甜蜜地带。

So 7% to 10% of total daily caloric intake, I'm guessing, is probably about what I do now.

所以我猜，每日总热量摄入的 7% 到 10% 可能与我现在所做的事情有关。

I'll have to check.

我得检查一下。

But is there a danger to going too low in saturated fats?

但是饱和脂肪摄入量太低有危险吗？