Dr. Justin Sonnenburg: How to Build, Maintain & Repair Gut Health
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.
欢迎来到休伯曼实验室播客，我们在这里讨论科学和基于科学的日常生活工具。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm Andrew Huberman and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.
我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。
Today my guest is Dr. Justin Sonnenburg.
今天我的嘉宾是贾斯汀·索南伯格博士。
Dr. Sonnenburg is a professor of microbiology and immunology at Stanford School of Medicine and one of the world's leading experts on the gut microbiome.
Sonnenburg 博士是斯坦福大学医学院微生物学和免疫学教授，也是肠道微生物组方面的世界领先专家之一。
The gut microbiome is the existence of trillions of little microorganisms throughout your gut, and by your gut, I don't just mean your stomach, I mean your entire digestive tract.
肠道微生物组是指整个肠道中存在的数万亿个小微生物，我所说的肠道不仅仅指您的胃，还指您的整个消化道。
Turns out we also have a microbiome that exists in our nose, in any other location in which our body interfaces with the outside world.
事实证明，我们的鼻子以及我们身体与外界接触的任何其他位置也存在微生物组。
In fact, there's a microbiome on your skin, and while it might seem kind of intrusive or kind of disgusting to have all these little microorganisms, they can be immensely beneficial for our health, meaning our hormonal health, our brain health, and our immune system function.
事实上，你的皮肤上有一个微生物组，虽然所有这些小微生物看起来有点侵入性或有点令人厌恶，但它们对我们的健康非常有益，这意味着我们的荷尔蒙健康、大脑健康和免疫系统功能。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Dr. Sonnenburg teaches us about the gut microbiome, how it's organized spatially, meaning which microbiota live where, he teaches us about these incredible things called crypts and niches, which are little caves within our digestive tract that certain microbiota take residence, and at that premier real estate, they're able to do incredible things to support our health.
Sonnenburg 博士向我们介绍了肠道微生物群，它是如何在空间上组织的，即哪些微生物群生活在哪里，他向我们介绍了这些令人难以置信的东西，称为隐窝和壁龛，它们是我们消化道内某些微生物群居住的小洞穴，在这个首要的房地产中，它们能够做出令人难以置信的事情来支持我们的健康。
He also talks about the things that we can all do to support our microbiome in order for our microbiome to support our brain and body health.
他还谈到了我们可以做些什么来支持我们的微生物组，以便我们的微生物组支持我们的大脑和身体健康。
Dr. Sonnenburg co-runs his laboratory with his spouse, Dr. Erica Sonnenburg, and together they've also written a terrific and highly informative book called, "The Good Gut: Taking Control of Your Weight, Your Mood, and Your Long-Term Health." Even though that book was written a few years back, the information still holds up very nicely.
Sonnenburg 博士与他的妻子 Erica Sonnenburg 博士共同经营他的实验室，他们还一起写了一本精彩且信息丰富的书，名为《好直觉：控制你的体重、你的情绪和你的长期健康》。尽管那本书是几年前写的，但其中的信息仍然非常有效。
And today he also builds on that information, informing us about recent studies that, for instance, point to the important role of fermented foods and the role of fiber in supporting a healthy gut microbiome.
今天，他还以这些信息为基础，向我们介绍了最近的研究，例如，指出发酵食品的重要作用以及纤维在支持健康肠道微生物组方面的作用。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So if you've heard about the gut microbiome, or even if you haven't, today you're going to hear about it from one of the world's leading experts.
因此，如果您听说过肠道微生物组，或者即使您没有听说过，今天您也会从世界领先的专家之一那里听到它。
He makes it immensely clear as to what it is, how it functions, and how to support it for your brain and body health.
他非常清楚地说明了它是什么、它如何发挥作用以及如何支持它来支持您的大脑和身体健康。
During today's discussion, we don't just talk about nutrition, we also talk about the impact of behaviors and the microbiome.
在今天的讨论中，我们不仅讨论营养，还讨论行为和微生物组的影响。
Behaviors such as who you touch, who you kiss, who you hug, whether or not you interact with or avoid animals, whether or not those animals belong to you or whether or not they belong to somebody else.
诸如您触摸谁、亲吻谁、拥抱谁、您是否与动物互动或避开动物、这些动物是否属于您或它们是否属于其他人等行为。
If all that sounds a little bit bizarre, you'll soon understand that your microbiome is constantly being modified by the behavioral interactions, the nutritional interactions, and indeed your mood and internal reactions to the outside world.
如果这一切听起来有点奇怪，您很快就会明白，您的微生物群正在不断地被行为相互作用、营养相互作用、甚至您的情绪和对外界的内部反应所改变。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This is an incredible system.
这是一个令人难以置信的系统。
Everyone has one, everyone should know how it works, and everyone should know how to optimize it.
每个人都有一个，每个人都应该知道它是如何工作的，每个人都应该知道如何优化它。
And today, you're going to learn all of that from Dr. Sonnenburg.
今天，您将从 Sonnenburg 博士那里了解所有这些。
Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.
在开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。
It is however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero-cost-to-consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public.
然而，我的愿望和努力的一部分是将有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本消费者信息带给公众。
In keeping with that theme, I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast.
为了与这个主题保持一致，我要感谢今天播客的赞助商。
And now for my discussion with Dr. Justin Sonnenburg.
现在我与 Justin Sonnenburg 博士进行讨论。
Justin, thanks so much for being here.
贾斯汀，非常感谢您来到这里。
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
Great to be here.
很高兴来到这里。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
I am a true novice when it comes to the microbiome.
在微生物组方面，我是一个真正的新手。
So I'd like to start off with a really basic question, which is what is the microbiome?
所以我想从一个非常基本的问题开始，什么是微生物组？
I imagine lots of little bugs running around in my gut, and I don't quite like the image of that, but I'm aware that our microbiome can be good for us, but we can also have an unhealthy microbiome.
我想象有很多小虫子在我的肠道里跑来跑去，我不太喜欢这样的形象，但我知道我们的微生物组可能对我们有益，但我们也可能有不健康的微生物组。
So if I were to look at the microbiome at the scale that I could see the meaningful things, what would it look like and what's going on in there?
因此，如果我以能够看到有意义的东西的规模来观察微生物组，那么它会是什么样子，里面发生了什么？
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
Yeah.
是的。
I mean, essentially you're correct.
我的意思是，本质上你是对的。
I mean, we have all of these little microorganisms running around in our gut.
我的意思是，所有这些小微生物都在我们的肠道里运行。
I think just to start off with clarifying terminology, microbiome and microbiota quite often are referred to or used to refer to our microbial community interchangeably, and I'll probably switch between those two terms today.
我认为首先要澄清术语，微生物组和微生物群经常被互换地指代或用来指代我们的微生物群落，今天我可能会在这两个术语之间切换。
The other important thing to realize is that these microbes are not just in our gut, but they're all over our body.
另一件需要意识到的重要事情是，这些微生物不仅存在于我们的肠道中，而且遍布我们的全身。
They're in our nose, they're in our mouths, they're on our skin.
它们在我们的鼻子里、我们的嘴里、我们的皮肤上。
And so basically anywhere that the environment can get to in our body, which includes inside our digestive tract, of course, is colonized with microbes.
因此，基本上环境可以到达我们体内的任何地方，当然包括我们的消化道内部，都被微生物定殖。
And the vast majority of these are in our distal gut, in our colon.
其中绝大多数位于我们的远端肠道，即结肠中。
And so this is the gut microbiota or gut microbiome.
这就是肠道微生物群或肠道微生物组。
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
And the density of this community is astounding.
这个社区的密度令人震惊。
I mean it really is; if you get down to the scale of being able to see individual microbes, start off with a zoomed-out view and you see something that looks like fecal material, the digest inside the gut, and you zoom in and you start to get to the microscopic level and see the microbes, they are just packed side to side, end to end.
我的意思是确实如此；如果你深入到能够看到单个微生物的规模，从缩小的视图开始，你会看到一些看起来像粪便的东西，肠道内的消化物，然后你放大，你开始达到微观水平并看到微生物，它们只是从一边到另一边，从头到尾排列在一起。
It's a super dense bacterial community, almost like a biofilm.
这是一个超级密集的细菌群落，几乎就像生物膜一样。
Something that's just made up of microbes, to the point where it's thought that around 30% of fecal matter is microbes, 30 to 50%.
由微生物组成的东西，据认为粪便中大约 30% 是微生物，即 30% 到 50%。
So it's an incredibly dense microbial community.
所以这是一个极其密集的微生物群落。
We're talking of trillions of microbial cells, and all those microbial cells, if you start to get to know them and see who they are, break out in the gut probably to hundreds to a thousand species, depending upon how you define a microbial species.
我们谈论的是数万亿个微生物细胞，所有这些微生物细胞，如果你开始了解它们并了解它们是谁，它们可能会在肠道中爆发成数百到一千个物种，具体取决于你如何定义微生物物种。
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
And then most of these are bacteria, but there are a lot of other life forms.
其中大部分是细菌，但还有很多其他生命形式。
There are archaea, which are little microbes that are bacteria-like, but they're different.
有古细菌，它们是类似细菌的小微生物，但它们是不同的。
There are eukaryotes.
有真核生物。
So we commonly think of eukaryotes in the gut as something like a parasite, but there are eukaryotes, there are fungi, there are also little viruses.
所以我们通常认为肠道中的真核生物就像寄生虫一样，但有真核生物，有真菌，也有很少的病毒。
There are these bacteriophages that infect bacterial cells, and those actually outnumber the bacteria like 10 to 1.
这些噬菌体会感染细菌细胞，其数量实际上与细菌的数量之比为 10 比 1。
So they're just everywhere there, they kill bacteria.
所以它们无处不在，它们可以杀死细菌。
And so there's these really interesting predator-prey interactions.
因此，捕食者与被捕食者之间的互动非常有趣。
But overall, it's just this really dense, complex, dynamic ecosystem.
但总的来说，这就是一个非常密集、复杂、动态的生态系统。
And so we're talking about the human as a single species, but we're also thinking of the human as this complex integrated ecosystem of hundreds to thousands of species interacting in concert to do all the fantastic things that we know happen in the human body.
因此，我们谈论的是人类作为一个单一物种，但我们也将人类视为这个复杂的综合生态系统，由成百上千个物种共同相互作用，完成我们所知道的发生在人体中的所有奇妙的事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Amazing.
太棒了。
So we've got a lot of cargo, or maybe we're the cargo.
所以我们有很多货物，或者说我们就是货物。
Who knows?
谁知道？
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
Yeah.
是的。
I mean there have been people that have likened humans to just a really elaborate culturing flask for microbes, and that we've actually been designed over the course of evolution, designed to just efficiently propagate this microbial culture from person to person, from generation to generation.
我的意思是，有人把人类比作一个非常精致的微生物培养瓶，我们实际上是在进化过程中被设计出来的，旨在有效地在人与人之间、一代又一代地传播这种微生物文化。
So it's a different way of thinking of the human body.
所以这是对人体的一种不同的思考方式。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Interesting.
有趣。
I believe that our pH, or the pH, of our digestive system varies as you descend, as you go from mouth to throat and stomach.
我相信，当你下降，从口腔到喉咙和胃时，我们的 pH 值或消化系统的 pH 值会发生变化。
And you said that most of the microbiota are in the distal colon.
你说大多数微生物群都在远端结肠。
Are there distinct forms of microbiota all along the length of the digestive tract and within these other interfaces with the outside world?
沿着消化道的长度以及与外界的其他界面内是否存在不同形式的微生物群？
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
Totally.
完全可以。
Yeah.
是的。
So it starts with our teeth and in our mouth and saliva.
所以它从我们的牙齿、口腔和唾液开始。
There's an oral microbiota.
有一个口腔微生物群。
These microbial species are very different than the ones that you find in the digestive tract.
这些微生物种类与消化道中发现的微生物种类非常不同。
They're usually built to deal with oxygen very well.
它们通常是为了很好地处理氧气而设计的。
They're in an area that is exposed to a lot of oxygen.
他们处于暴露于大量氧气的区域。
They, of course, see different nutrients than, for instance, a colonic bacteria would see, and they grow quite often in mats that live on teeth.
当然，它们看到的营养物质与结肠细菌看到的营养物质不同，而且它们经常在牙齿上的垫子中生长。
So they're struc ...
所以他们构造...
they're very structured in terms of ...
它们在以下方面非常结构化：
and not moving around a lot, so they're very fairly stationary.
并且不经常移动，所以它们非常静止。
As you move down the digestive tract, there are microbes in our esophagus and our stomach, but those communities are not very dense and actually not very well studied.
当你沿着消化道移动时，我们的食道和胃里都有微生物，但这些群落不是很密集，实际上也没有得到很好的研究。
We know of a very, there's a very famous stomach bacteria known as helicobacter pylori, which can cause stomach ulcers and cause gastric cancer in some less frequent situations.
我们知道有一种非常非常著名的胃细菌，叫做幽门螺杆菌，它会引起胃溃疡，在一些不太常见的情况下会导致胃癌。
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
But this is a very different set of microbes.
但这是一组非常不同的微生物。
They have to be adapted to a different environment in the stomach, especially incredibly acidic environment, but also very different in terms of their ability to interact with other microbes.
它们必须适应胃中不同的环境，特别是令人难以置信的酸性环境，而且与其他微生物相互作用的能力也有很大不同。
Just because the communities are less dense, they're less dynamic, there's less nutrients that stay there and passage through the community.
仅仅因为群落密度较低，活力较低，留在那里并通过群落的营养物质较少。
So a lot of times those communities are reliant upon nutrients derived from the host, as opposed to nutrients derived from our diet.
因此，很多时候这些群落依赖于来自宿主的营养，而不是来自我们饮食的营养。
As you move down out of the stomach into the small intestine, you start to see these communities, which are the ones that are becoming more well studied; small intestine is still a bit of a black box just because it's hard to access.
当你从胃向下移动到小肠时，你开始看到这些群落，这些群落正在得到更深入的研究；小肠仍然有点像一个黑匣子，因为它很难进入。
And so there's some really cool technologies out there for using, for instance, capsules to do sampling as the capsule passes through the digestive tract, so that we have a better idea of what's going on in the small intestine.
因此，有一些非常酷的技术，例如，使用胶囊在胶囊通过消化道时进行采样，以便我们更好地了解小肠中发生的情况。
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
And then you get to the colon, and this is the community that's just so incredibly densely packed; there's a ton of metabolic activity happening there and a bunch of interaction with the host.
然后你到达结肠，这是一个非常密集的社区；那里发生大量的代谢活动以及与宿主的大量相互作用。
And that's the study, that's the community that's really the best studied.
这就是研究，这才是真正研究得最好的社区。
Part of the reason for that is because stool is so easy to obtain compared to, for instance, something in the stomach or small intestine.
部分原因是因为与胃或小肠中的东西相比，粪便更容易获得。
And that stool is fairly representative; we know from studies that have been done using colonoscopies, and so forth, stool is fairly representative of what's happening in the colon.
那个凳子很有代表性；我们从使用结肠镜检查等进行的研究中知道，粪便相当能代表结肠中发生的情况。
So dense, superexciting community, but also the best studied just because it's the easiest to access in the lower digestive tract.
如此密集、超级令人兴奋的社区，但也是研究最好的，因为它最容易进入下消化道。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Very interesting.
非常有趣。
I imagine these microbiota have to get in there at some point.
我想这些微生物群必须在某个时候进入那里。
Are microbiota seen in newborns?
新生儿中是否存在微生物群？
In other words, where do they come from?
换句话说，它们从哪里来？
And dare I ask, what direction do they enter the body, or is it from multiple directions?
我敢问，它们是从哪个方向进入身体的，还是从多个方向进入的？
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
Yeah.
是的。
Great question.
很好的问题。
So one of the burning questions that we can come back to at the end of this is, where does our microbiota come from?
因此，我们在本文结束时可以回到的紧迫问题之一是，我们的微生物群来自哪里？
Because it is this kind of existential question in the field: where is this community assembling from.
因为这个领域存在着这样的问题：这个共同体是从哪里聚集起来的。
And the reason that it's such an interesting question is that a fetus when it's in the womb, that's actually a sterile environment.
这是一个如此有趣的问题，因为胎儿在子宫里时，实际上是一个无菌的环境。
There have been some studies that have looked at whether there are microbes in the womb and microbes colonizing the fetus at that point.
有一些研究考察了子宫内是否存在微生物以及此时胎儿是否有微生物定殖。
There's some debate about this, but overall it looks like that's not a big part of the equation of microbial colonization.
对此存在一些争论，但总的来说，这似乎并不是微生物定植方程的重要组成部分。
And so each time an infant is born, it's this new ecosystem, it's like an island rising up out of the ocean that has no species on it, and suddenly there's this land rush for this open territory.
因此，每次婴儿出生时，都会出现这种新的生态系统，就像一座从海洋中升起的岛屿，上面没有任何物种，突然间，人们涌向这片开放的领土。
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
So we know that infants go through this really complex process of microbiota assembly over the first days, weeks, months, years of life, and then you get into switching to solid food, two to three years of age.
所以我们知道，婴儿在生命的最初几天、几周、几个月、几年里经历了这个非常复杂的微生物群组装过程，然后在两到三岁时开始转向固体食物。
There are some changes in childhood, adolescence, working into adulthood, but that first zero to one year is a superdynamic time with really kind of stereotypical developmental changes in the gut microbiota that appear to have the possibility of going wrong and causing problems for infants in some instances.
儿童期、青春期、成年期会发生一些变化，但最初的零到一岁是一个超动态的时期，肠道微生物群确实发生了典型的发育变化，在某些情况下似乎有可能出错并给婴儿带来问题。
But if you step away from that extreme side of things going wrong, there also are a lot of different trajectories that developmental process can take because our microbiota is so malleable and so plastic, and those trajectories can be affected by all sorts of factors in early life.
但如果你远离出错的极端一面，发育过程也会出现很多不同的轨迹，因为我们的微生物群具有很强的可塑性和可塑性，而这些轨迹可能会受到生命早期各种因素的影响。
So an example is whether an infant is born by C-section or born vaginally, we know from beautiful work that's been done in the field that infants that are born by C-section actually have a gut microbiota that looks more like human skin than it does like either the birth canal, the vagina microbiota, or the mother's stool microbiota.
举个例子，无论婴儿是剖腹产还是阴道出生，我们从该领域所做的出色工作中得知，剖腹产婴儿的肠道微生物群实际上看起来更像人类皮肤，而不是产道、阴道微生物群或母亲粪便微生物群。
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
Babies that are born through the birth canal have initial colonization of vaginal microbes and of stool microbes from their mother.
通过产道出生的婴儿最初定植有来自母亲的阴道微生物和粪便微生物。
And so just these first days, whether you're born by C-section or through natural childbirth, your gut microbiota looks very different.
因此，就在最初几天，无论您是剖腹产还是自然分娩，您的肠道微生物群看起来都非常不同。
And then compound on top of that whether you're breastfed or formula-fed, whether your family has a pet or doesn't have a pet, whether you're exposed to antibiotics, there are all these factors that really can change that developmental process and really change your microbial identity eventually in life.
除此之外，无论您是母乳喂养还是配方奶喂养，无论您的家人是否养宠物，无论您是否接触抗生素，所有这些因素都确实可以改变发育过程，并最终真正改变您生活中的微生物特性。
The reason that the field is paying really close attention to this and studying this right now is because we know from animal studies that depending upon the microbes that you get early in life, you can send the immune system or metabolism of an organism or other parts of their biology in totally different developmental trajectories.
该领域现在非常密切关注这一问题并进行研究的原因是，我们从动物研究中知道，根据生命早期获得的微生物，可以使生物体的免疫系统或新陈代谢或其生物学的其他部分进入完全不同的发育轨迹。
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
So what microbes you're colonized with early in life can really change your biology.
因此，您在生命早期定植的微生物确实可以改变您的生物学特性。
And we can come back to that later.
我们可以稍后再回来讨论这个问题。
But ...
但是...
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, we should.
是的，我们应该。
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
Getting back to that original question of where do your microbes come from.
回到最初的问题：你的微生物从哪里来。
You'd think because you're born through your mother's birth canal or exposed to her skin microbes that a lot of your microbes would come from your mother, but it actually turns out that we can certainly detect that signal, we certainly see maternal microbes in the infant, but there are a lot of microbes that are coming from other places, surfaces, other people, perhaps other caregivers, but perhaps strangers as well.
你可能会认为，因为你是通过母亲的产道出生的，或者接触到了她皮肤上的微生物，所以你的很多微生物都来自你的母亲，但事实证明，我们当然可以检测到这个信号，我们当然可以在婴儿身上看到母体微生物，但也有很多微生物来自其他地方、表面、其他人，也许是其他护理人员，但也可能是陌生人。
So we acquire our microbes from a variety of sources.
因此，我们从各种来源获取微生物。
The first ones are from our mom or from our caregivers from the hospital, but then we add to that tremendously over the first year or so of life.
第一个是来自我们的妈妈或医院的护理人员，但随后我们在生命的第一年左右的时间里大大增加了这些。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Incredible.
难以置信。
You even said pets.
你甚至说宠物。
So if there's a dog in the home or a parakeet in the home, clearly they have a microbiome also, and potentially the child is deriving microbiota species from those pets.
因此，如果家里有一只狗或一只长尾小鹦鹉，显然它们也有微生物群，并且孩子可能从这些宠物中获取微生物群。
Correct?
正确的？
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Yeah.
是的。
And so the best studies that have been done have just looked at pets in the household as a factor.
因此，最好的研究只是将家庭中的宠物视为一个因素。
And whether that changes the group of infants that have a pet to look slightly different than the group of infants that don't have a pet.
这是否会改变养宠物的婴儿组与没有宠物的婴儿组看起来略有不同。
And then the question is what is the pet doing to change those microbes?
那么问题是宠物正在做什么来改变这些微生物？
And some of it is probably actually contributing direct members of the microbiota.
其中一些可能实际上贡献了微生物群的直接成员。
Actually, I have a dog.
事实上，我有一只狗。
That dog occasionally will lick my mouth without me paying attention, and that's probably introducing microbes.
那只狗偶尔会在我不注意的情况下舔我的嘴，这可能会引入微生物。
We also know that pets are down in the dirt, they're outside, they're being exposed to a lot of environmental microbes.
我们还知道，宠物生活在泥土中，它们在外面，接触大量的环境微生物。
And so just pets serving as a conduit for a bunch of microbes that we wouldn't otherwise come in contact with is a possibility as well.
因此，宠物也有可能成为一堆我们不会接触到的微生物的传播途径。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, we will return to pets and in particular your dog, an amazing dog, by the way.
好吧，我们将回到宠物，特别是你的狗，顺便说一句，一只很棒的狗。
I met your dog just the other day, and I had to force myself, I had to pry myself away from this Havanese, right?
前几天我遇到了你的狗，我必须强迫自己，我必须让自己远离这只哈瓦那狗，对吗？
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
Havanese.
哈瓦那人。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Incredible.
难以置信。
What is your dog's name?
你的狗叫什么名字？
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
Louis.
路易斯.
Louis Pasteur.
路易斯·巴斯德。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Louis Pasteur.
路易斯·巴斯德。
How appropriate.
多么合适啊。
Amazing dog, what a personality on that dog.
神奇的狗，那只狗的个性。
The issue that I think a lot of people are probably wondering is what is a healthy microbiome and what is it supporting?
我认为很多人可能想知道的问题是什么是健康的微生物组以及它支持什么？
We hear that you need a healthy microbiome to support the immune system or metabolism or even the gut-brain axis.
我们听说您需要健康的微生物组来支持免疫系统或新陈代谢甚至肠脑轴。
How do we define a healthy versus an unhealthy microbiome?
我们如何定义健康与不健康的微生物组？
Some people might know the unhealthy microbiome as dysbiosis is the word that I encounter in the literature, but given that there's so many species of microbiota, and given that I think we probably each have a signature pattern of microbiota, how do we define healthy versus unhealthy microbiota?
有些人可能知道不健康的微生物群，因为生态失调是我在文献中遇到的词，但考虑到微生物群的种类如此之多，而且我认为我们每个人可能都有一个特征性的微生物群模式，我们如何定义健康与不健康的微生物群呢？
Is there a test for this?
有这方面的测试吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Later we'll talk about technologies for testing microbiota.
稍后我们将讨论微生物群测试技术。
There are a lot of companies now, a lot of people sending stool samples in the mail.
现在有很多公司，很多人邮寄粪便样本。
Never look at the postal service the same way again, but it's out there and it's getting analyzed.
永远不要再以同样的方式看待邮政服务，但它就在那里并且正在接受分析。
So how should I think about this?
那么我应该如何思考这个问题呢？
I can think about things like heart rate, heart rate variability, BMI, all sorts of metrics of health.
我可以考虑诸如心率、心率变异性、BMI 以及各种健康指标之类的事情。
How should I think about the microbiota?
我应该如何看待微生物群？
How do I know if my microbiome is healthy or unhealthy?
我如何知道我的微生物群是健康还是不健康？
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
Yeah.
是的。
It's a million-dollar question right now in the field, and there's a lot of different ways of thinking about that, and I can talk about some of those.
目前，这是该领域一个价值百万美元的问题，对此有很多不同的思考方式，我可以谈谈其中的一些。
But I would say that there are sessions at conferences, there are review articles being commissioned.
但我想说的是，会议上有会议，有委托撰写评论文章。
There are all sorts of thought pieces about this right now, like what is a healthy microbiota?
现在有各种各样的想法关于这个问题，比如什么是健康的微生物群？
What are the features that define it?
定义它的特征是什么？
And I think before diving into this, the important thing to realize is it's a complex topic.
我认为在深入探讨这个问题之前，重要的是要意识到这是一个复杂的话题。
Context matters a lot.
背景很重要。
What's healthy for one person or one population may not be healthy for another person or population, and the microbiota is malleable.
对一个人或一个群体健康的东西可能对另一个人或群体不健康，而且微生物群是可塑的。
It's plastic, it changes our human biology, which I think is how we think about health quite often, BMI and longevity, reproductive success, however you want to define it.
它是塑料的，它改变了我们的人类生物学，我认为这就是我们经常思考健康、体重指数和寿命、生殖成功的方式，无论你想如何定义它。
It certainly can accommodate a variety of configurations of gut microbiota.
它当然可以适应肠道微生物群的多种配置。
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
And we don't have ...
而我们没有...
it's really hard to untangle all of the different factors of what could be very healthy versus a little bit less healthy.
确实很难理清什么是非常健康的，什么是不太健康的所有不同因素。
So I will say that there's no single answer to this, but there are some really important considerations.
所以我想说，这个问题没有单一的答案，但有一些非常重要的考虑因素。
And perhaps the best way to start talking about this is to go back to the inception of the Human Microbiome Project, which was this program that NIH started, they invested a lot of money in 2008, 2009 for really propelling the field of gut microbiome research.
也许开始谈论这个问题的最好方法是回到人类微生物组项目的开始，这是 NIH 启动的这个项目，他们在 2008 年、2009 年投入了大量资金，真正推动了肠道微生物组研究领域的发展。
It was becoming evident at that point that this was not just a curiosity of human biology, that it was probably really important for our health.
那时我们越来越清楚，这不仅仅是人类生物学的好奇心，它可能对我们的健康非常重要。
And they had all this wonderful sequencing technology from the human genome sequencing project.
他们拥有来自人类基因组测序项目的所有精彩测序技术。
And with the human genome complete at that point, they started turning that technology to sequencing our gut microbes.
随着人类基因组的完成，他们开始将该技术用于对我们的肠道微生物进行测序。
And it's important to contextualize the amount of information that they're trying to document.
将他们试图记录的信息量置于上下文中非常重要。
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
The collective genome of our gut microbes is on the order of 100 to 500 times larger than our human genome.
我们肠道微生物的集体基因组比人类基因组大 100 到 500 倍。
So it's just in terms of the number of genes.
所以这只是就基因数量而言。
So it's just this vast number of genes.
所以这就是大量的基因。
And then if you start getting into some of the fine variation, it's scales by ten to a hundredfold.
然后，如果你开始研究一些细微的变化，它的规模会扩大十到一百倍。
So really a huge amount of information they're trying to document.
他们确实试图记录大量信息。
And so it was a wonderful investment, and it continues to pay dividends to this day.
因此，这是一项很棒的投资，并且至今仍继续带来红利。
But one of their goals of that project was to try to define what a healthy microbiome is versus a diseased microbiome in different contexts.
但该项目的目标之一是尝试定义不同环境下的健康微生物组和患病微生物组。
And so they started enrolling a bunch of healthy people and a bunch of people with, for instance, inflammatory bowel disease and other diseases.
因此，他们开始招募一群健康的人和一群患有炎症性肠病和其他疾病的人。
And the idea was let's document those microbiomes, what microbes are there, what genes are there.
我们的想法是让我们记录这些微生物组，那里有哪些微生物，那里有哪些基因。
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
And then we can start to get a sense of what are the commonalities of the healthy people and how can that go wrong in these different disease states.
然后我们就可以开始了解健康人的共性是什么，以及在这些不同的疾病状态下这些共性是如何出错的。
And there were some answers from that.
由此得出了一些答案。
But through those studies, we really started to get the image that there is this tremendous individuality in the gut microbiome.
但通过这些研究，我们真正开始认识到肠道微生物组具有巨大的个性。
And so it's really hard to start drawing conclusions, after an initial pass of that project, of what is a healthy microbiome.
因此，在该项目初步通过后，很难开始得出什么是健康微生物组的结论。
But the other thing that we started to realize, at the same time, there were studies going on documenting the gut microbiome of traditional populations of humans, hunter gatherers, rural agricultural populations.
但与此同时，我们开始意识到的另一件事是，有研究记录了传统人类、狩猎采集者、农村农业人口的肠道微生物组。
And those studies were really mind-blowing from the perspective of: all these people are healthy, they're living very different lifestyles, and their microbiome doesn't look anything like a healthy American microbiome.
从以下角度来看，这些研究确实令人兴奋：所有这些人都很健康，他们的生活方式截然不同，而且他们的微生物组看起来一点也不像健康的美国微生物组。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So does that mean that the healthy American microbiome is healthy, but only in the context of living in the United States and consuming what's consumed here?
那么，这是否意味着健康的美国微生物群是健康的，但仅限于生活在美国并消费这里消费的东西呢？
Or is it that there is a superior microbiome signature somewhere in our history or currently in the world?
或者说，在我们的历史上或目前世界上的某个地方存在着优越的微生物组特征？
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
Yeah.
是的。
I think that's kind of a big question right now.
我认为这是现在的一个大问题。
I think that there's a great quote from Dobzhansky that says, "Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution." And these traditional populations are all modern people living on the planet now, but their lifestyle does represent the closest approximation to how our ancestors, early humans lived.
我认为多布赞斯基（Dobzhansky）有一句话说得很好：“除了进化论之外，生物学中的一切都没有意义。”这些传统人群都是现在生活在地球上的现代人，但他们的生活方式确实最接近我们的祖先，早期人类的生活方式。
And so those microbiomes, and now we know from sequencing of paleofeces, the microbiome of these traditional populations is representative, more representative of the microbiome that we evolved with that potentially shaped our human genome.
因此，这些微生物组，现在我们从古粪便测序中得知，这些传统种群的微生物组具有代表性，更能代表我们进化时可能塑造人类基因组的微生物组。
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
And so one possibility is that in the industrialized world, we have a different microbiome from traditional populations, and that microbiome is well adapted to our current lifestyle and therefore healthy in the context of an industrialized society.
因此一种可能性是，在工业化世界中，我们拥有与传统人群不同的微生物组，并且该微生物组很好地适应了我们当前的生活方式，因此在工业化社会的背景下是健康的。
And there probably are elements of that that are true.
其中可能有一些内容是真实的。
But another possibility is that this is a microbiome that's gone off the rails, that it is deteriorating in the face of antibiotic use and all the problems associated with industrialized diet, Western diet.
但另一种可能性是，这是一个脱离轨道的微生物组，面对抗生素的使用以及与工业化饮食和西方饮食相关的所有问题，它正在恶化。
And that even though the human microbiome project documented the microbiome of healthy people, healthy Americans, that what they really may have been documenting there is a perturbed microbiota that's really predisposing people to a variety of inflammatory and metabolic diseases.
尽管人类微生物组项目记录了健康人、健康美国人的微生物组，但他们真正记录的可能是一个受到干扰的微生物群，它确实使人们容易患上各种炎症和代谢疾病。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It reminds me of the ...
这让我想起了...
as a neurobiologist I was weaned in the landscape of so-called critical periods where early life environment very strongly shapes the brain.
作为一名神经生物学家，我是在所谓的关键时期断奶的，在这个时期，早期的生活环境强烈地塑造了大脑。
And so many studies were done on animals raised in traditional cages with a water bottle and some food, maybe a few other animals of the same species.
许多研究都是针对在传统笼子里饲养的动物进行的，这些动物有水瓶和一些食物，也许还有一些同一物种的其他动物。
And then people came along and said, "Wait, normally these species in the wild would have things like things to climb over and things to go through." And you provide those very basic elements, and all of a sudden the architecture of neural circuits looks very different.
然后人们走过来说：“等等，通常这些野生物种会有一些东西要爬过去、要经过一些东西。”当你提供了这些非常基本的元素，突然之间，神经回路的架构看起来就非常不同了。
And you realize that you were studying a deprived condition.
你意识到你正在研究一种贫困的状况。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And earlier you actually referred to, if I understood correctly, to critical periods for gut microbiome development.
如果我理解正确的话，您之前实际上提到了肠道微生物组发育的关键时期。
Is it fair to say that there are critical periods, meaning if my — let's say my, let's aim it at me — if my gut microbiome was dysbiotic, it was off early in life, can I rescue that through proper conditions and exercise?
公平地说，有一些关键时期，也就是说，如果我的肠道微生物群失调，在生命早期就消失了，我可以通过适当的条件和锻炼来挽救它吗？
Or is there some sort of fixed pattern that's going to be hard for me to escape from?
或者是否存在某种我难以摆脱的固定模式？
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
Yeah.
是的。
There's a big field that's emerging now that we refer to as kind of reprogramming the gut microbiome.
现在正在出现一个很大的领域，我们称之为肠道微生物组的重新编程。
And I think if we want to conceptualize humans as this aggregate human microbial biology, most people have heard of CRISPR and the ability to potentially change our human genome in ways that correct genetic problems.
我认为，如果我们想将人类概念化为人类微生物生物学的总和，大多数人都听说过 CRISPR 以及以纠正遗传问题的方式潜在改变人类基因组的能力。
That's a wonderful technology and has kind of put on the table genetic engineering for curing disease.
这是一项很棒的技术，并且可以通过基因工程来治疗疾病。
But it's much easier to change gut microbes for a problem, just because that community is malleable.
但改变肠道微生物来解决问题要容易得多，因为肠道微生物群落具有可塑性。
The issue that I think we're seeing in the field is that microbiomes quite often, whether they're diseased or healthy, exist in stable states.
我认为我们在该领域看到的问题是，微生物组常常以稳定状态存在，无论它们是患病的还是健康的。
They kind of tend towards this well that has gravity to it in a way, biological gravity, where it's really hard to dislodge that community from that state.
他们有点倾向于这口井，在某种程度上，生物引力对其具有重力，在那里很难将该社区从该状态中驱逐出去。
So even individuals, for instance, that get antibiotics, you take oral antibiotics, the community takes this huge hit.
因此，即使是个人，例如，服用抗生素，服用口服抗生素，社区也会受到巨大的打击。
We know that a bunch of microbes die, the composition changes, and that represents a period of vulnerability where pathogens can come in and take over and cause disease.
我们知道，一群微生物死亡，成分发生变化，这代表了一段脆弱时期，病原体可以进入并接管并导致疾病。
But if that doesn't happen, the microbiota kind of works its way back to something that is not exactly like, but similar to the preantibiotic treatment.
但如果这种情况没有发生，微生物群就会回到与抗生素前治疗不完全相同但相似的状态。
We know with dietary perturbations, quite often you'll see a really rapid change to the gut microbiome.
我们知道，由于饮食干扰，您经常会看到肠道微生物组发生非常快速的变化。
And then this, it's almost like a memory where it snaps back to this ...
然后，这几乎就像一段记忆，它突然回到这个……
something that's very similar to the original state, even though the diet remains different.
尽管饮食仍然不同，但与原始状态非常相似。
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
And so there's this incredible, what we refer to as resilience of the gut microbiome and resistance to change, or at least resistance to establishing a new stable state.
因此，这令人难以置信，我们称之为肠道微生物组的恢复力和对变化的抵抗力，或者至少是对建立新的稳定状态的抵抗力。
So that doesn't mean it's hopeless to change an unhealthy microbiome to a healthy microbiome, but it does mean that we need to think carefully about restructuring these communities in ways where we can achieve a new stable state that will resist the microbial community getting pulled back to that original state.
因此，这并不意味着将不健康的微生物组改变为健康的微生物组是没有希望的，但这确实意味着我们需要仔细考虑如何重组这些群落，以实现新的稳定状态，从而抵抗微生物群落被拉回原始状态。
And one of the really simplest and nicest examples of this is an experiment that we performed with mice, where we were feeding mice a normal mouse diet, a lot of nutrients there for the gut microbiota, things like dietary fiber.
最简单、最好的例子之一是我们用小鼠进行的一项实验，我们给小鼠喂食正常的小鼠饮食，其中有大量用于肠道微生物群的营养物质，例如膳食纤维。
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
And we switched those mice, half the mice to a low-fiber diet.
我们将这些小鼠（其中一半）改为低纤维饮食。
And we were basically asking the question that if you switch to kind of a Western diet, a low-fiber, higher-fat diet, what happens to the gut microbiota?
我们基本上问的问题是，如果你改用西方饮食，即低纤维、高脂肪饮食，肠道微生物群会发生什么变化？
And we saw the microbiota change, it lost diversity.
我们看到微生物群发生了变化，它失去了多样性。
It was very similar to what we see in the difference between industrialized and traditional populations.
这与我们在工业化人口和传统人口之间的差异非常相似。
But when we brought back a healthy diet, a lot of the microbes returned, it was fairly ...
但当我们恢复健康饮食时，很多微生物又回来了，这相当......
there was this kind of memory where it went back to very similar to its original state.
有这样一种记忆，它回到了与原来非常相似的状态。
The difference is that when we put the mice on the low-fiber, high-fat diet and then kept them on that for multiple generations, we saw this progressive deterioration over the course of generations, where by the fourth generation, the gut microbiome was a fraction of what it originally was.
不同之处在于，当我们让小鼠接受低纤维、高脂肪饮食，然后让它们持续多代时，我们看到这种情况在几代人的过程中逐渐恶化，到了第四代，肠道微生物组已经只剩下原来的一小部分了。
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
Let's say 30% of the species only remained; something like 70% of the species had gone extinct or appeared to have gone extinct.
假设该物种仅剩下 30%；大约 70% 的物种已经灭绝或似乎已经灭绝。
We then put those mice back onto a high-fiber diet, and we didn't see recovery.
然后我们让这些小鼠恢复高纤维饮食，但没有看到恢复。
So in that case, it's a situation where a new stable state has been achieved.
所以在这种情况下，这是一种已经实现了新的稳定状态的情况。
In that case, it's probably because those mice don't actually have access to the microbes they've lost.
在这种情况下，可能是因为这些老鼠实际上无法接触到它们失去的微生物。
And we actually know that we did the control experiment of mice on a high-fiber diet for four generations.
我们实际上知道我们对小鼠进行了四代高纤维饮食的对照实验。
They maintain all their microbes.
他们保留了所有的微生物。
If we take those fourth-generation mice with all the diversity and do a fecal transplant into the mice that had lost their microbes but had been returned to a high-fiber diet, all of the diversity was reconstituted.
如果我们将具有所有多样性的第四代小鼠进行粪便移植到失去微生物但恢复高纤维饮食的小鼠中，所有多样性都会被重建。
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
So your question of how do we establish new stable states, how do we get back to a healthy microbiota if we have taken a lot of antibiotics or have a deteriorated microbiota, it's probably a combination of having access to the right microbes, and we can talk about what that access looks like.
所以你的问题是我们如何建立新的稳定状态，如果我们服用了大量抗生素或微生物群恶化，我们如何恢复健康的微生物群，这可能是获得正确微生物的组合，我们可以讨论这种访问是什么样的。
It may look like therapeutics in the future.
未来它可能看起来像是一种疗法。
There are a lot of companies working on creating cocktails of healthy microbes, but it'll be a combination of access to the right microbes and nourishing those microbes with the proper diet.
有很多公司致力于创造健康微生物的混合物，但这将需要获得正确的微生物并通过适当的饮食滋养这些微生物。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Very interesting.
非常有趣。
This multigenerational study reminds me of something that I was told early in my training, which was that it takes a long time for a trait to evolve, but not a long time for traits to devolve.
这项多代研究让我想起了我在训练初期就被告知的一件事，那就是一种特质需要很长时间才能进化，但特质的退化却不需要很长时间。
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
Yeah.
是的。
Exactly.
确切地。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Which generally is true of human behavior too, although it depends.
人类行为通常也是如此，尽管这取决于情况。
We can all do better, nonetheless.
尽管如此，我们都可以做得更好。
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
Very interesting.
非常有趣。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So I have a puzzle or a bit of a conundrum around this notion of species of microbiota.
因此，我对微生物群物种的概念有一个困惑或一些难题。
So if the pH, if the acidity differs along the digestive tract but is more or less fixed for a given location — I mean unless something's really off, the pH of the stomach is within a particular range, and the intestines, so forth — and certain microbiota thrive at a given station, a given location along the digestive tract, and the pH is sort of fixed more or less.
因此，如果 pH 值、酸度沿着消化道不同，但对于给定位置或多或少是固定的——我的意思是，除非真的有什么问题，否则胃和肠道的 pH 值在特定范围内，等等——并且某些微生物群在消化道的给定站点、给定位置上繁衍生息，并且 pH 值或多或少是固定的。
I'm trying to figure out what is allowing certain microbiota to stay in a given location?
我想弄清楚是什么让某些微生物群停留在给定的位置？
Why don't they migrate up or down?
为什么它们不向上或向下迁移？
So are they pH sensitive?
那么它们对pH值敏感吗？
And that's what they're selecting for along the track.
这就是他们在赛道上选择的目标。
And I'm also trying to figure out how these changes in food so robustly change the microbiome.
我还试图弄清楚食物中的这些变化如何如此强烈地改变微生物组。
The way you describe it almost makes it sound like food is the variable that's going to dictate the quality of the microbiome.
你描述它的方式听起来几乎像是食物是决定微生物组质量的变量。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Although I'm sure there are other factors as well.
尽管我确信还有其他因素。
And then in the back of my mind, I don't know that I want to ask this question, but I really want to ask this question, which is where are they in there exactly?
然后在我的内心深处，我不知道我想问这个问题，但我真的想问这个问题，他们到底在哪里？
And why don't they all get flushed out?
为什么他们没有全部被冲走？
Right?
正确的？
If 30% of fecal matter is microbiota, then where are they living?
如果 30% 的粪便物质是微生物群，那么它们生活在哪里？
Are they along the lining in the little microvilli of the intestine, and what are they attaching to and interacting with?
它们是沿着肠道小微绒毛的内壁吗？它们附着在什么上并与什么相互作用？
We know there are neurons in there.
我们知道那里有神经元。
Especially within the stomach.
尤其是在胃里。
There's a lot of work now being done on the gut neurons and how they signal to the brain and so forth.
目前，针对肠道神经元以及它们如何向大脑发出信号等方面正在进行大量工作。
But who are they talking to in terms of the host cells?
但就宿主细胞而言，它们在与谁对话呢？
And because if it's just from food, I imagine that they're in there having their good time or not, and then some are getting flushed out or not.
因为如果只是因为食物，我想他们是否在那里度过了愉快的时光，然后有些人是否被冲走了。
But how do they actually stay in there?
但他们实际上是如何呆在那里的呢？
Who are they attaching to?
他们依附于谁？
What are they talking about?
他们在说什么？
What are they doing for fun and so forth?
他们在做什么好玩的等等？
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Super, super interesting.
超级超级有趣。
So I'll come back to the attachment question and why they don't get washed out.
所以我会回到附件问题以及为什么它们没有被淘汰。
Because this is super fascinating question, and I think your initial point of the regional differences in what's happening in terms of physiology, biochemistry along the length of the gut, is really interesting.
因为这是一个非常有趣的问题，我认为你最初提出的关于肠道生理学、生物化学方面发生的区域差异的观点非常有趣。
There certainly is a pH gradient along the length of the gut.
沿着肠道的长度肯定存在pH梯度。
There is actually bicarbonate that's secreted into the small intestine to try to neutralize stomach acid.
实际上，小肠会分泌碳酸氢盐来中和胃酸。
There also is bile that's secreted, that creates a different chemical environment.
还有分泌的胆汁，创造了不同的化学环境。
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
And there are bile-loving bacteria that kind of live in that region of the gut.
肠道的那个区域生活着一些喜欢胆汁的细菌。
And then there is a nutrient gradient just because as food leaves the stomach, a lot of the simple nutrients are absorbed.
然后存在营养梯度，因为当食物离开胃时，许多简单的营养物质被吸收。
And so you might see microbes in the small intestine, for instance, that are better at consuming simple sugars.
例如，您可能会在小肠中看到更擅长消耗单糖的微生物。
But you won't find many microbes in the colon like that because all the simple sugars have been depleted at that point.
但你不会在结肠中发现很多这样的微生物，因为此时所有的单糖都已耗尽。
And then the immune system is a big factor as well.
免疫系统也是一个重要因素。
And the immune system is incredibly active in the small intestine.
小肠中的免疫系统非常活跃。
The small intestine is this really interesting ...
小肠真是有趣啊……
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
In the small intestine.
在小肠里。
The small intestine is this really interesting challenge for the host because it's a tissue that's been ...
小肠对于宿主来说是一个非常有趣的挑战，因为它是一个已经被...
its purpose is mainly absorptive.
其目的主要是吸收。
And so there has to be flow of a lot of things, a lot of nutrients from the luminal contents into host cells.
因此，必须有很多物质、大量营养物质从管腔内容物流入宿主细胞。
And so that means the barrier can't be as fortified.
这意味着屏障不能那么坚固。
And so the immune system is incredibly active in the small intestine to make sure that microbes aren't getting so close, and if they are getting close, there's a response to them to put them back in their right location.
因此，免疫系统在小肠中非常活跃，以确保微生物不会靠得太近，如果它们靠得太近，就会对它们做出反应，将它们放回正确的位置。
And then along this whole kind of architecture of the gut there's the longitudinal gradients, things like pH and so forth.
然后沿着肠道的整个结构存在纵向梯度，比如 pH 值等等。
And I should say that pH starts to drop again in the colon because a lot of those microbes are fermenting things and producing acids.
我应该说，结肠中的 pH 值开始再次下降，因为许多微生物正在发酵物质并产生酸。
And so you actually end up with the pH starting to drop, not as low as the stomach, but starting to drop again if there's a lot of fermentation happening in the colon.
所以实际上最终 pH 值开始下降，不是像胃那么低，而是如果结肠中发生大量发酵，pH 值又开始下降。
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
In addition, you also have a gradient from the host surface epithelium out to the middle of the gut.
此外，从宿主表面上皮到肠道中部也有一个梯度。
And that is likely the key for what is retained in the gut and how the community isn't washed out.
这可能是肠道中保留什么以及如何使群落不被淘汰的关键。
So lining the gut, we have epithelial cells.
肠道内壁有上皮细胞。
In the small intestine, they're largely absorptive.
在小肠中，它们主要被吸收。
In the colon, there's a lot of mucus production.
结肠中会产生大量粘液。
And we also see this in the small intestine.
我们也在小肠中看到了这一点。
And this mucus lining is this substance that we secrete, largely made of carbohydrate actually.
这种粘液层是我们分泌的物质，实际上主要由碳水化合物组成。
And the purpose of that is to keep microbes in the right spot and to allow nutrients in water to be absorbed in the small intestine and large intestine.
其目的是使微生物保持在正确的位置，并让水中的营养物质被小肠和大肠吸收。
And so it's this meshwork that is supposed to keep out large things like bacteria and let in small things like nutrients.
因此，这种网状结构应该能够阻挡细菌等大的东西，并让营养物质等小东西进入。
That mucus layer is ...
那个粘液层是...
it turns over more slowly than the luminal contents passing by.
它的翻转速度比流过的管腔内容物慢。
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
And so if a microbe learns to hold onto that mucus layer, it can actually resist the flow of the contents of the gut.
因此，如果微生物学会抓住粘液层，它实际上可以抵抗肠道内容物的流动。
And so there's many microbes in the gut that are not just good at attaching to mucus, but also good at nibbling on it, at eating it.
因此，肠道中有许多微生物不仅擅长附着粘液，而且还擅长啃咬粘液、吃掉它。
And there are these bacteria like Akkermansia muciniphila, mucus-loving.
还有一些细菌，比如嗜粘液阿克曼氏菌（Akkermansia muciniphila）。
It's ...
这是...
one of its main things it does is actually eat mucus in the gut.
它的主要作用之一实际上是吃肠道中的粘液。
That's its lifestyle.
这就是它的生活方式。
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
And so there's an incredible gradient of activity from the host tissue working a way out to the middle of the gut.
因此，从宿主组织一直到肠道中部，存在着令人难以置信的活动梯度。
What's amazing is some microbes actually do penetrate past the mucus, and there are these invaginations in the intestine, known as crypts, actually where the stem cells live, that produce the epithelium.
令人惊奇的是，一些微生物确实能穿透粘液，肠道内有这些内陷，称为隐窝，实际上是干细胞生存的地方，产生上皮细胞。
And there are microbial communities that conform in those crypts.
在这些隐窝中存在着符合要求的微生物群落。
And we don't know completely what their function is, but we've done some studies that appear to indicate that if you can localize to a crypt, you've hit the jackpot as a microbe for being able to maintain dominance in the gut.
我们并不完全知道它们的功能是什么，但我们已经做了一些研究，这些研究似乎表明，如果你能定位到隐窝，那么你作为一种能够在肠道中保持主导地位的微生物就中了大奖。
So if you sit in the crypt, and something similar to you, another microbe that's similar to you, comes into the gut, you can actually exclude that microbe.
因此，如果您坐在地窖中，并且与您相似的某种东西，另一种与您相似的微生物进入肠道，您实际上可以排除该微生物。
And the thinking is that it can't find a spot to resist being washed out of the gut.
人们的想法是，它找不到一个地方来抵抗被从肠道中冲走。
So there probably are these little niches close to host tissue in the mucus that are absolutely essential for resisting getting washed out with the flow of all the contents.
因此，粘液中可能存在靠近宿主组织的这些小壁龛，它们对于抵抗所有内容物的流动而被冲走是绝对必要的。
PART 1 OF 4 ENDS Andrew Huberman:
第 1 部分（共 4 部分）结束 Andrew Huberman：
Incredible.
难以置信。
That raises a question about two things that are reasonably popular.
这就提出了一个关于两个相当受欢迎的事物的问题。
One is this notion of cleanses, from either direction.
其中之一就是从任一方向进行净化的概念。
People will consume things by mouth to try and cleanse their digestive tract.
人们会通过口腔进食来尝试清洁消化道。
There's a long history of this.
这有很长的历史。
I'm not recommending this.
我不推荐这个。
There's differing opinions on whether or not this is good or bad.
对于这是好还是坏，人们有不同的看法。
And the other is fasting or time-restricted feeding.
另一种是禁食或限时喂养。
The reason I ask about time-restricted feeding is my understanding is that after a prolonged period of fasting, there's some autoabsorption or digestion of one's own digestive tract that then gets renewed.
我询问限时喂养的原因是我的理解是，经过长时间的禁食后，人自己的消化道会进行一些自动吸收或消化，然后得到更新。
In other words, your intestine and stomach start eating its own lining to some extent in the absence of food.
换句话说，在没有食物的情况下，你的肠和胃会在某种程度上开始吃掉自己的内壁。
So what do we know about cleanses?
那么我们对净化了解多少呢？
Oh, and then I suppose there's cleanses from the other direction too, which are less popular, I've never run the statistics, but certainly exist out there.
哦，然后我想也有来自另一个方向的净化，这种净化不太受欢迎，我从未进行过统计，但肯定存在。
What's the idea about cleanses and fasting as it relates to the health or the dysbiosis of the microbiota?
净化和禁食与健康或微生物群失调有何关系？
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
Yeah.
是的。
There hasn't been a lot of high-quality science in this area.
该领域还没有很多高质量的科学成果。
And so it's really hard to conclude whether these are good for health or bad for health.
因此，很难断定这些对健康有益还是有害。
I think the fasting ...
我认为斋戒...
We're in a really interesting situation in the industrialized world because we have so many problems associated with our digestive tract, and that probably has to do with our highly processed diet and perhaps having a microbiota that's fairly perturbed as well.
在工业化世界中，我们的处境非常有趣，因为我们有很多与消化道相关的问题，这可能与我们高度加工的饮食以及微生物群也受到相当程度的干扰有关。
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
And so, whether doing things like this are good or bad, it's really hard to define because we may be starting off in a fairly bad state anyway.
所以，做这样的事情是好是坏，真的很难定义，因为无论如何我们可能会处于一个相当糟糕的状态。
There's so many diseases that we're dealing with, metabolic syndrome, inflammatory bowel disease, that just put a massive portion of the population in a very different category than people that are thinking about, "How do I maintain health?
我们正在应对如此多的疾病，代谢综合征、炎症性肠病，这使得很大一部分人与那些思考“我如何保持健康？
How do I live a long life?" from starting off in what we consider a fairly healthy state.
我怎样才能长寿呢？”从我们认为相当健康的状态开始。
And so things like fasting and a lot of other therapies that have been developed in the field, I think ketogenic diet may be kind of in this category as well.
因此，禁食和该领域开发的许多其他疗法，我认为生酮饮食也可能属于这一类。
There can be tremendous benefits in terms of their impact in the context of metabolic syndrome and for people that are battling eating a continual bad diet or something like that.
对于代谢综合征以及与持续不良饮食或类似饮食作斗争的人们来说，它们的影响是巨大的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And adherence.
并坚持。
I think one of the reasons for the popularity of intermittent fasting, time-restricted feeding and — what do they call them now?
我认为间歇性禁食、限时进食流行的原因之一——他们现在怎么称呼它们？
— exclusion diets, where you entirely exclude meat, or you entirely exclude plants, or whatever it is, is that adherence is sometimes easier in the all-or-none.
— 排除饮食，即完全排除肉类，或者完全排除植物，或者无论是什么，在全有或全无的情况下，有时更容易坚持。
As neurobiologists we think of it as a Go/NoGo circuitry.
作为神经生物学家，我们将其视为 Go/NoGo 电路。
It's harder to make decisions, nuanced decisions, often about food than it is to just eliminate entire categories of food.
做出决定，微妙的决定，通常是关于食物的决定，比直接消除整个类别的食物更困难。
Not eating, for many people is easier than eating smaller portions.
对于许多人来说，不吃东西比吃少量的东西更容易。
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So, some of it I think is neurobiological and psychological.
所以，我认为其中一些是神经生物学和心理学的。
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
And we've had gastroenterology fellows in our lab that come in, and I think that to slice through the nuance of all this, there's a very simple recipe in a really well-accepted, broad definition of what a healthy diet is.
我们实验室里有胃肠病学研究员进来，我认为为了剖析这一切的细微差别，有一个非常简单的食谱，对健康饮食是什么有一个真正被广泛接受的、广泛的定义。
The Mediterranean diet, plant-based diet, is ...
地中海饮食，即植物性饮食，是...
there's just a ton of data that, particularly people of European ancestry, but there's a pretty broad acceptance that if you eat mostly plants, for most people that's going to be very healthy.
有大量数据表明，尤其是欧洲血统的人，但人们普遍认为，如果你主要吃植物，对大多数人来说这将是非常健康的。
To the point where a wonderful colleague of ours, Christopher Gardner, who's studied diet his whole life trying to establish what a healthy diet is, and people ...
我们的一位出色的同事克里斯托弗·加德纳（Christopher Gardner）一生都在研究饮食，试图建立什么是健康饮食，而人们......
he was giving advice.
他在提供建议。
I saw him giving advice to a dietician who was trying to get all the rules of what she should be recommending to people that she deals with that are interested in a healthy diet.
我看到他向一位营养师提供建议，这位营养师试图了解她应该向那些对健康饮食感兴趣的人推荐什么的所有规则。
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
And she said, "So the number one I'm going to say plant-based fiber is probably super important, and that should be very high on the list." And she goes on to number two, and he said, "Stop." He said, "If people do number one well, you don't need to know any other rules." I mean, it's basically, if you can have a high-fiber plant-based diet, for most people, at least talking about the bucket of people that are already in a healthy state, you don't really need to think about other things because you can't eat too much meat, you can't eat too many sweets.
她说：“所以我要说的第一个植物纤维可能非常重要，而且应该排在最前面。”她继续说第二点，他说：“停下来。”他说：“如果人们把第一做得好，你就不需要知道任何其他规则。”我的意思是，基本上，如果你能有高纤维植物性饮食，对于大多数人来说，至少谈论已经处于健康状态的人，你真的不需要考虑其他事情，因为你不能吃太多的肉，你不能吃太多的甜食。
You've already eaten a huge amount of plant-based fiber.
您已经摄入了大量的植物纤维。
Your gut is full, you're not going to be hungry.
你的肠子已经饱了，你就不会饿了。
And it kind of takes care of worrying about what should I eat or what shouldn't I eat?
它有点担心我应该吃什么或不应该吃什么？
Just eat a ton of whole plant, whole grains, legumes, vegetables, fruit that's high fiber-based, not high sugar.
只要吃大量的全植物、全谷物、豆类、蔬菜、水果，这些都是高纤维的，而不是高糖的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Does it completely exclude meat and fish and dairy?
它完全排除肉类、鱼类和奶制品吗？
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
He was saying people can add their own spins on this.
他说人们可以对此添加自己的想法。
But I think that the main rule is just start off with, and it kind of gets back to Michael Pollan's mantra, "Eat food, not too much.
但我认为主要规则只是从开始，这有点回到迈克尔·波伦的口头禅：“吃东西，不要太多。
Mostly plants." I think if you stick with these simple rules and don't overthink, like "Should I have this?
主要是植物。”我认为如果你坚持这些简单的规则并且不要过度思考，比如“我应该拥有这个吗？
Can I eat eggs?
我可以吃鸡蛋吗？
Can I eat ...
可以吃吗...
?" Just stick to these simple rules.
？”只需遵守这些简单的规则即可。
It makes it very approachable.
这使得它非常平易近人。
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
But I agree.
但我同意。
So these gastroenterology fellows that we've had in our labs say that it's really hard.
所以我们实验室的胃肠病学研究员说这真的很难。
We kind of say to them, Why won't you give this dietary advice that's really well-known?
我们对他们说，你为什么不给出这个众所周知的饮食建议呢？
And they just said, "Well, it's really hard to get people to change their diet unless you're doing either a Go/NoGo sort of thing or eliminating something.
他们只是说，“好吧，让人们改变他们的饮食真的很难，除非你要么做Go/NoGo之类的事情，要么消除一些东西。
So if carrots are giving you problems, don't eat carrots.
因此，如果胡萝卜给您带来问题，就不要吃胡萝卜。
And that's a very simple, easy instruction to follow, but doesn't really deal with the root problem of why can't you eat carrots, because you should be able to eat carrots.
这是一个非常简单、容易遵循的说明，但并没有真正解决为什么不能吃胡萝卜的根本问题，因为你应该能够吃胡萝卜。
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
Most people can eat carrots.
大多数人都可以吃胡萝卜。
And so I think that when we're thinking about things like fasting and all these different dietary regimes and cleanses that people do, we have to step back for a moment and say, "Okay, well what are really the big high-level rules that we should take home?" And then if you are experiencing problems and you want to think about how to deal with them, it's good to go to an evidence-based method, where there's actually data to back it up.
因此，我认为，当我们考虑禁食以及人们所做的所有这些不同的饮食习惯和净化等事情时，我们必须退一步说：“好吧，我们应该带回家的真正的高级规则是什么？”然后，如果您遇到问题并且想要考虑如何处理它们，那么最好采用基于证据的方法，实际上有数据支持它。
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
The data in the field really shows that with fasting, particularly if you go to animals that hibernate, or things like that where there's really extended fast, you actually have a microbiota come up that blooms in the absence of food coming in through diet, that's really good at eating mucus.
该领域的数据确实表明，在禁食的情况下，特别是如果你去冬眠的动物，或者类似的动物，在禁食的情况下，你实际上会在没有食物通过饮食进入的情况下大量繁殖微生物群，这真的很擅长吃粘液。
So you have bacteria that specialize in eating nutrients derived from the host because there's no other nutrients to live on.
因此，细菌专门吃来自宿主的营养物质，因为没有其他营养物质可以生存。
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
Now, whether this is good or bad, we don't know, but it seems like the consumption of mucus in excess is a problem from the standpoint of microbes getting too close to host tissue and inciting inflammation, which is what we see in animal models when we deprive of dietary fiber.
现在，我们不知道这是好是坏，但从微生物过于靠近宿主组织并引发炎症的角度来看，过量消耗粘液似乎是一个问题，这就是我们在动物模型中当我们剥夺膳食纤维时所看到的情况。
We see these mucus utilizers become abundant, and inflammatory markers start to come on.
我们看到这些粘液利用者变得丰富，炎症标记物开始出现。
So fasting short-term might be fine, probably.
所以短期禁食可能没问题。
There's definitely benefits that are seen metabolically.
新陈代谢方面肯定有好处。
In terms of what it means for long-term health from the standpoint of the gut microbiota, I would say we don't have the answer to that yet.
从肠道微生物群的角度来看，这对长期健康意味着什么，我想说我们还没有答案。
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
In terms of the cleanses and the flushes and all this.
就清洁和冲洗等等而言。
Personally, I think it's a terrible idea.
就我个人而言，我认为这是一个糟糕的主意。
I mean, we know that if ...
我的意思是，我们知道如果...
in studies that are being done now, to reprogram the gut microbiota, to install a completely new microbial community, the first step is to wash away the resident microbial community that's there.
在现在正在进行的研究中，要重新编程肠道微生物群，建立一个全新的微生物群落，第一步就是洗掉那里的常驻微生物群落。
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
So if you're in the process of acquiring a really good microbiota, and you know how to do that, then the flushing everything out is great.
因此，如果您正在获取非常好的微生物群，并且您知道如何做到这一点，那么将所有东西冲掉就很棒了。
Otherwise, what is happening is you're kind of leaving rebuilding of the community to chance.
否则，所发生的事情就是让社区的重建只能靠运气。
What is it?
它是什么？
And so what microbes are going to colonize, who's going to take up space after you do this flush or cleanse?
那么，在您进行冲洗或清洁后，哪些微生物会繁殖，哪些微生物会占据空间呢？
And that, I think it's a little bit like playing Russian roulette.
我认为这有点像玩俄罗斯轮盘赌。
You may end up with a good microbial community in there afterwards.
之后你可能会在那里得到一个良好的微生物群落。
You may not.
你可能不会。
You certainly want to pay close attention to what you're eating while you're doing the reconstitution of the community after you do something like that.
在做完类似的事情后，当你重建社区时，你当然要密切注意你吃的东西。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Thank you for that.
谢谢你。
I know a lot of people are interested in these kinds of elimination diets and intermittent fasting slash time-restricted feeding seems to be getting some traction, in part because at some level, we are all doing this when we sleep; most of us aren't eating when we sleep anyway.
我知道很多人对这种消除饮食感兴趣，间歇性禁食和限时喂养似乎受到了一些关注，部分原因是在某种程度上，我们在睡觉时都会这样做；无论如何，我们大多数人睡觉时都不会吃东西。
And adjusting the numbers seems more accessible for a lot of people.
对于很多人来说，调整数字似乎更容易。
We have a lot of colleagues at Stanford who I know happen to follow that regimen or a time-restricted feeding regimen, but also who follow the more traditional meal spacing as well, of course.
据我所知，我们在斯坦福大学有很多同事碰巧遵循这种养生法或限时喂养法，当然，他们也遵循更传统的进餐间隔。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
One of the things that I wonder about as we talk about primarily plant-based with some, what did you say the Pollan thing was?
当我们与一些人谈论主要以植物为基础的食物时，我想知道的一件事是，你说的波伦事是什么？
It was eat mostly plants and then maybe some meat, but not too much or not too much-
主要吃植物，然后也许吃一些肉，但不要太多或不要太多——
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
"Eat food, mostly plants, not too much."
“吃食物，主要是植物，不要太多。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Got it.
明白了。
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
Or sorry, "Eat food, not too much.
或者抱歉，“吃点东西，不要吃太多。
Mostly plants."
主要是植物。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Got it.
明白了。
And I hear this again and again.
我一次又一次听到这样的说法。
I know there are a number of people who do seem to do well on a lower-carbohydrate, and even some people who report feeling much better on a really strictly almost meat-organ-only diet.
我知道有很多人确实在低碳水化合物饮食中表现良好，甚至有些人报告说，在严格的几乎只吃肉器官的饮食中感觉好多了。
And the only reason I raise this is not ...
我提出这个问题的唯一原因不是......
I don't participate in ...
我不参加...
I'm one of those omnivores out there, I do eat some meat and I do eat plants as well.
我是杂食动物之一，我确实吃一些肉，也吃植物。
But the reason I raised this is that earlier you were talking about communities that may have microbiota that are healthier than ours, or at least different than ours.
但我提出这个问题的原因是，早些时候你谈论的社区可能拥有比我们更健康的微生物群，或者至少与我们不同。
And there are communities in the world that subsist largely on animal products or for which unprocessed animal products are considered the richest nutrient foods in those communities.
世界上有些社区主要依靠动物产品生存，或者在这些社区中，未加工的动物产品被认为是最丰富的营养食品。
Protein is very scarce.
蛋白质非常稀缺。
Ancestrally protein was more scarce.
祖先的蛋白质更加稀缺。
So eggs and meat and things of that sort.
所以鸡蛋和肉之类的东西。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So could there be a genetic component?
那么是否存在遗传因素呢？
In other words, if we fast forward 10 years and we actually can make sense of all this human genome stuff, are we going to find that someone who has Scandinavian roots or somebody who has South American roots or somebody that descended from a different tribe will do better on one particular diet versus another?
换句话说，如果我们快进 10 年，我们实际上能够理解所有这些人类基因组的东西，我们是否会发现有斯堪的纳维亚血统的人、有南美血统的人或来自不同部落的人在一种特定饮食上会比另一种饮食做得更好？
And thereby, or I should say in parallel with that, that their gut microbiome will have different signatures that are ...
因此，或者我应该同时说，他们的肠道微生物组将具有不同的特征......
so your microbiome might thrive on plants, and mine might thrive on organ meats.
所以你的微生物组可能会在植物上茁壮成长，而我的微生物组可能会在动物器官上茁壮成长。
And as I say this, I'm not a big consumer of organ meats.
正如我所说，我并不是内脏的大消费者。
I'm just laying this out for sake of example.
我只是为了举例而列出这一点。
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
Great.
太棒了。
So a few notes.
所以一些笔记。
The first one has to do with the carbohydrates and restriction of carbohydrates and some people feeling healthier when they cut carbohydrates out.
第一个与碳水化合物和碳水化合物的限制有关，有些人在减少碳水化合物的摄入后感觉更健康。
My guess is — this is my theory, to be tested — that people feel better cutting carbohydrates out because the diet that we eat in the United States and in industrialized countries, the carbohydrates are largely crap.
我的猜测是——这是我的理论，有待测试——人们在减少碳水化合物的摄入后感觉更好，因为我们在美国和工业化国家吃的饮食中，碳水化合物大部分都是垃圾。
They're processed; it's like starch, simple sugar.
它们经过加工；它就像淀粉、单糖。
It's things that contribute to glycemic index.
它是影响血糖指数的因素。
These sugars that we eat, they make it to our small intestine.
我们吃的这些糖会进入我们的小肠。
They get chopped up into simple sugars, absorbed into our bloodstream, and we have a ton of glucose then coursing through our veins, which we know is bad and can lead to things like diabetes.
它们被切成单糖，吸收到我们的血液中，然后我们的静脉中流过大量的葡萄糖，我们知道这是不好的，会导致糖尿病等疾病。
If the carbohydrates that were in our diet were complex carbohydrates, dietary fiber, and we like to refer to the subset of dietary fiber that the microbiota can actually access as microbiota-accessible carbohydrates.
如果我们饮食中的碳水化合物是复杂碳水化合物、膳食纤维，那么我们喜欢将微生物群实际上可以获取的膳食纤维子集称为微生物群可获取的碳水化合物。
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
And the reason that we like that term is it has the word carbohydrate in it.
我们喜欢这个词的原因是它里面有碳水化合物这个词。
And it's to point out that not all carbs are bad.
需要指出的是，并非所有碳水化合物都是有害的。
It's just there are bad carbs, or carbs that are bad if you consume them in too high a quantity, things like table sugar and simple starches.
只是存在一些不好的碳水化合物，或者如果您摄入过多的碳水化合物，例如食糖和简单淀粉，它们就会变得不好。
But there are good carbs as well.
但也有好的碳水化合物。
And these microbiota-accessible carbohydrates are the complex ones that we can't digest and fuel our gut microbiota, our gut microbiota can ferment them.
这些微生物可接触的碳水化合物是复杂的，我们无法消化并为我们的肠道微生物提供能量，我们的肠道微生物可以发酵它们。
So I think we probably all would be better off with less of the carbs that we're typically served, but most of us and probably the vast majority of us, would be better off by consuming a lot more carbs that were complex, that were microbiota-accessible.
所以我认为，我们通常吃的碳水化合物越少，情况可能会越好，但我们大多数人，可能是绝大多数人，如果摄入更多复杂的、微生物可接触的碳水化合物，情况会更好。
And I'll come back to why that's important in terms of our biology.
我会回过头来谈谈为什么这对于我们的生物学来说很重要。
There's some mechanisms that are known as to why those complex carbohydrates are so important for our health for most of us.
有一些已知的机制可以解释为什么这些复杂碳水化合物对我们大多数人的健康如此重要。
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
I think this aspect of human genetic adaptation to diet is super interesting.
我认为人类遗传对饮食的适应的这一方面非常有趣。
And then layer on top of that gut microbiota, adaptation to diet, which is another layer of this that is also fascinating.
然后在肠道微生物群之上，对饮食的适应，这是另一层也很有趣。
It's very clear that over very short periods of time, humans can adapt to differences in their diet.
很明显，在很短的时间内，人类可以适应饮食的差异。
Lactase persistence is kind of the classic example of this.
乳糖酶持久性就是一个典型的例子。
Just over the past 10,000 years, humans, certain groups of humans, have adapted to being able to consume dairy by taking this enzyme, lactase, that normally is just expressed in most of the world's population early in life, to be able to metabolize lactose in breast milk.
就在过去的一万年里，人类，某些人类群体，已经适应了通过摄入乳糖酶来消费乳制品，乳糖酶通常只在世界上大多数人口的早期表达，以便能够代谢母乳中的乳糖。
By extending the expression of that throughout life.
通过将这种表达延伸到一生。
Now you can consume milk for your whole life.
现在您可以终生饮用牛奶。
And so that is an example of specific populations of humans, human genome genetically adapting to diet in a very short period of time.
这是人类特定人群的一个例子，人类基因组在很短的时间内在基因上适应了饮食。
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
And there are other examples of this, and undoubtedly this has happened throughout the world to various aspects of diet.
还有其他这样的例子，毫无疑问，这种情况在世界各地的饮食各个方面都发生过。
So certainly it's important to remember that there will be different diets that are better for different groups based on what genes you harbor and have in your human genome.
因此，重要的是要记住，根据您携带的基因和人类基因组中的基因，会有适合不同群体的不同饮食。
The other aspect on top of that is that there are good examples of the gut microbiome adapting to cultural differences in diet.
除此之外，还有肠道微生物适应饮食文化差异的好例子。
And the classic example of this is the degradation of seaweed.
典型的例子就是海藻的退化。
So we know that most Americans, if you eat sushi and there's nori there, and you eat some of this seaweed, it has a dietary fiber in it known as porphyrin, that porphyrin will shoot through most of us untransformed, inert substance.
所以我们知道，大多数美国人，如果你吃寿司，那里有紫菜，你吃一些这种海藻，它含有一种称为卟啉的膳食纤维，卟啉会射穿我们大多数人未转化的惰性物质。
It'll do other things like retain water and service kind of something like cellulose, not be fermented at a high level.
它还能做其他事情，比如保留水分和服务纤维素之类的东西，而不是进行高水平的发酵。
If somebody from Southeast Asia that's always consumed seaweed and is part of a culture that consumes seaweed, eats seaweed, they have a gut microbe that can now metabolize porphyrin.
如果来自东南亚的人总是食用海藻，并且是食用海藻文化的一部分，那么他们的肠道微生物现在可以代谢卟啉。
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
And so there are these very specific gene transfer events where the genes for breaking down porphyrin have been imported into the microbiome of many people in Southeast Asia to, we can think of it as helping digest porphyrin, but it's really just a microbe that's found a niche, found a way to make a living in the gut by consuming something that's common in the diet there.
因此，存在这些非常具体的基因转移事件，其中分解卟啉的基因已被导入东南亚许多人的微生物组中，我们可以将其视为帮助消化卟啉，但它实际上只是一种找到了利基的微生物，找到了一种通过食用那里饮食中常见的东西在肠道中谋生的方法。
So there are these different layers.
所以有这些不同的层。
There are human genetic adaptations, and there are microbiome adaptations that are cultural and based on people's geographic location.
有人类遗传适应，也有文化上和基于人们地理位置的微生物组适应。
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
But there's no escaping the fact that for much of human evolution, the vast majority of people that are on this planet had ancestors that were hunter gatherers foraging, consuming huge quantities of plant material just because that's what was there.
但无可回避的事实是，在人类进化的大部分时间里，这个星球上绝大多数人的祖先都是狩猎采集者，他们消耗大量的植物材料，只是因为那里就有植物材料。
And so one of the groups that we study, the Hadza hunter gatherers in Africa, and I should take a moment just to say that our research and research of many people in our field and other fields rely on study of indigenous communities.
因此，我们研究的群体之一，非洲的哈扎狩猎采集者，我应该花点时间说一下，我们对我们领域和其他领域的许多人的研究依赖于对土著社区的研究。
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
And it's really important to think of these communities as our equals.
将这些社区视为与我们平等非常重要。
They're modern people on the planet.
他们是地球上的现代人。
They have interesting lifestyles that are informative with regard to certain aspects of human biology, but in many cases, they also are leading vulnerable existence.
他们有着有趣的生活方式，这些生活方式在人类生物学的某些方面提供了丰富的信息，但在许多情况下，他们也过着脆弱的生活。
And so we really take great care in our research program, and it's important for people to realize that these populations take part in our research because they're wonderful research partners, and we need to be mindful of thinking about how both we talk about them and use our data that has been gained through their generous contribution to our research program.
因此，我们在我们的研究计划中确实非常谨慎，重要的是让人们意识到这些人群参与我们的研究，因为他们是出色的研究合作伙伴，我们需要注意思考我们如何谈论他们并使用通过他们对我们研究计划的慷慨贡献而获得的数据。
The Hadza hunter gatherers, it's estimated consume on the order of a hundred to 150 grams of dietary fiber per day.
哈扎狩猎采集者估计每天消耗约 100 至 150 克膳食纤维。
And that's in stark contrast to the typical American that consumes about 15 grams.
这与典型美国人的消费量约 15 克形成鲜明对比。
So somewhere seven to tenfold decrease in the main nutrient that feeds our gut microbiome in the American diet.
因此，美国饮食中为肠道微生物群提供营养的主要营养素减少了七到十倍。
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
The Hadza are one example.
哈扎人就是一个例子。
There are many different foraging populations, but the vast majority of these populations consume huge amounts of dietary fiber because plants are the reliable, consistent source.
有许多不同的觅食种群，但这些种群中的绝大多数消耗大量膳食纤维，因为植物是可靠、一致的来源。
If you as a hunter gatherer go on a hunt, usually that hunt is unsuccessful.
如果你作为狩猎采集者去狩猎，通常狩猎会失败。
I think the data are that one out of 20 to 30 hunts are successful in landing actually big game for the Hadza.
我认为数据显示，每 20 到 30 次狩猎中就有 1 次能够成功为哈扎人捕获真正的大型猎物。
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
They have birds that they shoot and small animals, but quite often day after day they're relying upon berries, tubers, baobab fruit, they're relying on the plants in their environment.
他们射杀鸟类和小动物，但他们常常日复一日地依赖浆果、块茎、猴面包树果实，他们依赖环境中的植物。
And actually, if you go to the data and look at what their food preferences are, their food preferences are actually meat and honey.
事实上，如果你查看数据并看看他们的食物偏好是什么，他们的食物偏好实际上是肉和蜂蜜。
So they don't eat a high-fiber diet because they love fiber.
所以他们不吃高纤维饮食，因为他们喜欢纤维。
They eat a high-fiber diet because that's what's available and consistent for them to survive.
他们吃高纤维饮食，因为这是他们生存所需且持续的食物。
But our brains are wired for caloric density.
但我们的大脑是为热量密度而设计的。
And so if you took a Hadza, put them in a restaurant in the United States, they would make the same crappy decisions that we make because we all want sugar and fat and calories.
因此，如果你把哈扎人放在美国的一家餐馆里，他们会做出和我们一样糟糕的决定，因为我们都想要糖、脂肪和卡路里。
It's how our brain is wired.
这就是我们大脑的连接方式。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And protein and fat are essential for brain development as far as we know, right?
据我们所知，蛋白质和脂肪对于大脑发育至关重要，对吗？
So it sounds like the Hadza, I hope I'm pronouncing that correctly.
所以听起来像哈扎语，我希望我的发音是正确的。
Oh, you said, would prefer to eat meat and honey, but they happen to consume a lot of plant fiber as a consequence of what's available.
哦，你说，更喜欢吃肉和蜂蜜，但由于现有的东西，它们恰好消耗了大量的植物纤维。
One of the questions I have as it relates to all of this is it sounds to me like there is no question from the pure vegan all the way to the extreme opposite, which would be pure meat diet, that avoiding processed foods is a good idea or heavily processed foods in general.
我的一个问题是，与所有这些相关的问题是，在我看来，从纯素食到极端相反的纯素食，即纯肉饮食，避免加工食品是一个好主意，或者一般而言，避免加工食品是一个好主意。
And I mean, not that the occasional consumption is necessarily bad, but whether or not one is thinking about one macronutrient profile or another, it sounds like consuming processed foods is just bad for the microbiome.
我的意思是，并不是说偶尔食用一定是不好的，但无论人们是否考虑一种或另一种常量营养素，听起来食用加工食品对微生物群都是有害的。
Can we say that categorically?
我们可以断然地说吗？
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
For sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
Yeah, absolutely.
是的，绝对是。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So your low-carb person, your zero-carb person, your extreme vegan, no meat, whether or not you're all meat, organ meat sounds to me as if the number one thing, maybe even dare I say above Chris's point about plants, although I'm not going to challenge Chris Gardner on nutrition, I would be way outside the lane lines to do that.
所以你的低碳水化合物人，你的零碳水化合物人，你的极端素食主义者，不吃肉，无论你是否全是肉，内脏肉对我来说听起来好像是第一件事，也许我什至敢说高于克里斯关于植物的观点，虽然我不会在营养方面挑战克里斯加德纳，但我会远远超出车道线。
But is that to avoiding processed foods is paramount?
但这是避免加工食品最重要的吗？
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
Yeah.
是的。
And I think that's completely compatible with what Christopher was saying.
我认为这与克里斯托弗所说的完全一致。
He was saying if you prioritize getting a huge amount of whole plant-based food with a lot of fiber first, you're not going to have room for eating a lot of processed food.
他说，如果你首先优先考虑摄入大量含有大量纤维的全植物性食品，那么你就没有空间吃大量加工食品。
So it's kind of the same as avoiding processed food.
所以这有点像避免加工食品。
So I think that those are exactly the same rule, and I think that you're exactly right.
所以我认为这些规则是完全相同的，而且我认为你是完全正确的。
And we can break down, there's a lot of data of why different components of processed food are so bad for us and so bad for our microbiome.
我们可以分解，有很多数据可以说明为什么加工食品的不同成分对我们如此有害，对我们的微生物组如此有害。
And I can talk about a few examples of that.
我可以举几个例子。
But the flip side of this is this mechanism of, and again, thinking about the spectrum of a plant-based diet versus a meat-based diet, there's a lot of data to tell us that a meat or ketogenic or high-fat diet may have big benefits in terms of short-term metabolic health.
但另一方面，这种机制再次考虑植物性饮食与肉类饮食的范围，有大量数据告诉我们，肉类、生酮或高脂肪饮食可能对短期代谢健康有很大好处。
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
That's typically how people think about that diet.
人们通常就是这样看待这种饮食的。
There's also a lot of heart disease that's linked with that as well.
还有很多心脏病也与此有关。
There's good literature for that, which is something for people to look at and be aware of.
这方面有一些很好的文献，可供人们查看和了解。
The plant-based diet: if you're eating a bunch of complex fibers that feed your gut microbiota, your gut microbiota produces these substances called short chain fatty acids, things like butyrate.
以植物为基础的饮食：如果您正在吃一堆复杂的纤维来喂养您的肠道微生物群，您的肠道微生物群就会产生这些称为短链脂肪酸的物质，例如丁酸盐。
And it's known that these short chain fatty acids play really essential components, both in terms of fueling colonocytes, enforcing the barrier, keeping inflammation low, regulating the immune system, regulating metabolism.
众所周知，这些短链脂肪酸在为结肠细胞提供能量、强化屏障、保持低炎症、调节免疫系统和调节新陈代谢方面发挥着非常重要的作用。
And so a lot of people think of dietary fiber as this inert substance that passes through, makes us feel full maybe for a little bit, but we get hungry afterwards right away.
因此，很多人认为膳食纤维是一种穿过的惰性物质，可能会让我们暂时感到饱腹，但之后我们会立即感到饥饿。
If you're eating a lot of fiber that's feeding your gut microbiota, your gut microbiota is just producing this vast array of fermentation and products that then get absorbed into our bloodstream and have all of these tremendous cascading effects that appear to be largely beneficial on our biology.
如果您摄入大量纤维来喂养肠道微生物群，那么您的肠道微生物群就会产生大量的发酵和产物，然后被吸收到我们的血液中，并产生所有这些巨大的级联效应，这些效应似乎对我们的生物学非常有益。
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
And so to think about that paradigm of simple carbs versus complex carbs, in the case of simple carbs, you end up with high blood sugar, something that will spike your insulin and have all kinds of weird metabolic effects.
因此，考虑一下简单碳水化合物与复杂碳水化合物的范例，就简单碳水化合物而言，您最终会出现高血糖，这会导致胰岛素升高并产生各种奇怪的代谢效应。
In the case of complex carbohydrates, you'll end up with very low blood sugar because most of those have low glycemic index and a bunch of short chain fatty acids that are having regulatory rules.
对于复杂碳水化合物，您最终会出现非常低的血糖，因为大多数碳水化合物的血糖指数较低，并且含有大量有监管规则的短链脂肪酸。
So just to round out that topic, I think there is a reason to think that maybe not appropriate for absolutely everyone out there, but I think the vast majority of people, particularly given the statistics of what we know people eat in the United States and in industrialized countries, most people would reap tremendous health benefits from eating more whole plant-based dietary fiber.
因此，为了完善这个话题，我认为有理由认为这可能并不适合所有人，但我认为绝大多数人，特别是考虑到我们所知道的美国和工业化国家人们饮食的统计数据，大多数人会通过食用更多的全植物膳食纤维获得巨大的健康益处。
Now, processed foods, I think is this other dimension where you have all of these weird chemicals, artificial sweeteners, weird fats, a lot of refined simple nutrients, the simple nutrients we've talked about.
现在，加工食品，我认为是另一个维度，其中有所有这些奇怪的化学物质、人造甜味剂、奇怪的脂肪、许多精制的简单营养素，我们已经讨论过的简单营养素。
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
But we know that, for instance, artificial sweeteners can have a massive negative impact on the gut microbiome and can lead us towards metabolic syndrome.
但我们知道，例如，人工甜味剂会对肠道微生物群产生巨大的负面影响，并可能导致我们患上代谢综合征。
Actually, there's been beautiful work out of the Weizmann Institute on this.
事实上，魏茨曼研究所在这方面做了很多出色的工作。
And then emulsifiers, these compounds that are put in processed foods to help them maintain shelf stability so things don't separate.
然后是乳化剂，这些化合物被添加到加工食品中，帮助它们保持货架稳定性，这样就不会分离。
And so all the moisture content is retained appropriately.
因此所有的水分含量都被适当地保留。
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
Many of these are known to disrupt the mucus layer, and as soon as you start disrupting that barrier, that can lead you in the direction of inflammation.
众所周知，其中许多都会破坏粘液层，一旦您开始破坏该屏障，就会导致炎症。
And in animal models, we know that can lead towards metabolic syndrome as well.
在动物模型中，我们知道这也会导致代谢综合征。
So there's components of processed food that are, when studied in isolation, known to have a direct negative impact on gut biology and the microbiota.
因此，当单独研究时，我们知道加工食品中的某些成分会对肠道生物学和微生物群产生直接的负面影响。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The mention of artificial sweeteners is interesting.
提到人工甜味剂很有趣。
I confess it's a third rail on social, talking about artificial sweeteners.
我承认这是社交的第三条轨道，谈论人工甜味剂。
There are two camps it seems, or at least two camps, one that say artificial sweeteners are not detrimental at all.
似乎有两个阵营，或者至少有两个阵营，其中一个阵营认为人工甜味剂根本没有害处。
Another that says they're very detrimental, mainly based on the mouse studies, and then there are people in the middle that are, I put myself in that category.
另一个说它们非常有害，主要是基于老鼠研究，然后还有中间的人，我把自己归为这一类。
I drink the occasional diet soda.
我偶尔喝无糖汽水。
I don't consume them in large volume, but I'm sort of in the middle there, however.
我不会大量消费它们，但我的消费量处于中间水平。
And so I just throw that out there because I know immediately people are jumping on that.
所以我就把它扔在那里，因为我立刻就知道人们会对此感兴趣。
But I will just mention, there's some recent data from out of Diego Bohorquez's lab at Duke University that the neurons that live in the gut mucosa, these neuropod cells, can actually distinguish between artificial and true sweet sugar versus artificial sweeteners base.
但我只想提一下，杜克大学迭戈·博霍尔克斯实验室的一些最新数据表明，生活在肠道粘膜中的神经元，这些神经足细胞，实际上可以区分人工和真正的甜糖与人工甜味剂碱。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They send different patterns of neural signals up to the brain, and the brain circuitry seems strongly impacted.
它们向大脑发送不同模式的神经信号，大脑回路似乎受到了强烈影响。
So I think that as the data emerge, we're hearing more and more of these artificial sweeteners either are problematic or at least are signaling different events in the gut.
因此，我认为随着数据的出现，我们听到越来越多的人工甜味剂要么存在问题，要么至少在肠道中发出不同的信号。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I do want to make sure that we distinguish artificial sweeteners from noncaloric plant-based sweeteners.
我确实想确保我们区分人工甜味剂和无热量植物甜味剂。
And this is based on a mistake that I've made over and over again on the podcast where I'll just kind of lump artificial sweeteners into one big category, and then I'll mention stevia.
这是基于我在播客上一次又一次犯的错误，我只是将人工甜味剂归为一大类，然后我会提到甜叶菊。
So what about plant-based sweeteners that are not artificial?
那么非人工的植物甜味剂又如何呢？
They weren't manufactured in a laboratory like saccharin or sucralose or aspartame, right?
它们不像糖精、三氯蔗糖或阿斯巴甜那样在实验室生产，对吗？
What do we know anything about plant-based noncaloric sweeteners or low-caloric sweeteners?
我们对植物性无热量甜味剂或低热量甜味剂了解多少？
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
Very little.
很少。
A lot of those have a lot more bang for the buck.
其中很多都物有所值。
They're incredibly sweet.
他们非常甜蜜。
So it takes a really small amount for them to trigger a huge amount of sweetness.
因此，只需很少的量就能引发大量的甜味。
And so it's depending upon the mechanism of action by which these sweeteners that are not sugar are impacting our biology.
因此，这取决于这些非糖甜味剂影响我们生物学的作用机制。
It may be that those are actually less negative or more healthy than the ones that are artificial just because it requires less of them in the food for us to perceive that sweet taste.
也许这些实际上比人造的负面影响更少或更健康，只是因为食物中需要更少的它们才能让我们感受到甜味。
It may also be that because ...
也可能是因为...
I don't think that everything that's natural is better necessarily than things that are artificial.
我不认为所有自然的东西都一定比人造的东西更好。
But it may be that because of kind of evolutionary exposure to these compounds in our diet, historically, there are I think traditional populations that use these, for instance, to sweeten different foods, that our bodies just know how to deal with those compounds better than the ones that are synthetic.
但可能是因为从历史上看，由于我们饮食中这些化合物的进化暴露，我认为传统人群使用这些化合物来使不同的食物变甜，我们的身体只是知道如何比合成化合物更好地处理这些化合物。
But I think the studies still need to be done.
但我认为研究仍然需要完成。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do you actively avoid artificial sweeteners, sucralose, aspartame, saccharin, you personally?
您个人是否主动避免使用人工甜味剂、三氯蔗糖、阿斯巴甜、糖精？
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
Yeah, I do.
是的，我愿意。
I avoid them, but I'm not ...
我避开他们，但我不...
so I work closely with my wife, Erica, as we were in the lab together, and we wrote this book, "The Good Gut," where we document our journey in changing our lifestyle, dietary habits, choices we make based on the research as we've gotten to know it in the gut microbiota over the past 15 years.
因此，我和我的妻子 Erica 密切合作，就像我们一起在实验室一样，我们写了这本书《好肠道》，在这本书中，我们记录了我们改变生活方式、饮食习惯以及我们根据过去 15 年对肠道微生物群的了解而做出的选择的旅程。
And I think that one of the lessons that we've learned is that just doing things in moderation makes it a lot easier and doing things slowly makes it a lot easier.
我认为我们学到的教训之一是，适度做事会让事情变得容易得多，而缓慢做事会让事情变得容易得多。
And so there are very few rules that I have that are hard and fast.
因此，我的规则很少是硬性的。
I'm a pretty flexible eater.
我的饮食非常灵活。
I don't believe that having a diet Coke will somehow cascade into some terrible disease or something like that.
我不相信喝健怡可乐会以某种方式引发某种可怕的疾病或类似的事情。
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
I try to avoid them.
我尽量避开他们。
I don't really like the flavor of them.
我真的不喜欢它们的味道。
I'm supersensitive to the nuances of the flavor, even with the stevia and mogrosides from monk fruit and stuff like that.
我对味道的细微差别非常敏感，即使是来自罗汉果的甜叶菊和罗汉果苷之类的东西。
The off flavors are really hard for me to deal with.
异味对我来说真的很难处理。
I also, in this journey of changing our diet, when we started off in microbiome research, I was in the habit of the afternoons having a muffin or a cookie or something like that.
我也在改变饮食的旅程中，当我们开始进行微生物组研究时，我习惯在下午吃松饼或饼干或类似的东西。
And when we started to realize that we should be eating less sweets and eating more dietary fiber, this was an incredibly difficult change for me to make.
当我们开始意识到我们应该少吃甜食并多吃膳食纤维时，这对我来说是一个非常困难的改变。
I was just wired to kind of crave this-
我只是有点渴望这个-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Classic scientist.
经典科学家。
Scientists love this, the pastry in the afternoon and the coffee.
科学家们喜欢这个，下午的糕点和咖啡。
And in the old days it used to be a cigarette too.
在过去，它也曾经是香烟。
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
Right, exactly.
对，完全正确。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
When I started my training, a lot of people still smoked.
当我开始训练时，很多人仍然吸烟。
And it was only during my postdoctoral training that they eliminated smoking on campuses, and productivity took a trough for a while.
而且直到我博士后培训期间，他们才禁止校园吸烟，生产力一度陷入低谷。
And until these people developed other tools to focus their attention.
直到这些人开发出其他工具来集中注意力。
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
Exactly, Exactly.
完全正确，完全正确。
So there is this kind of need, and then once you have an ingrained behavior and maybe things that are addictive, it becomes incredibly difficult to break that habit.
所以存在这种需求，一旦你有一种根深蒂固的行为，或者可能是令人上瘾的事情，打破这种习惯就变得非常困难。
And so I would say gradually, over the course of five or more years, we have migrated our diet away from sweet foods to things that are less sweet.
所以我想说，在五年或更长时间的过程中，我们逐渐将饮食从甜食转向不太甜的食物。
And it's been a journey.
这是一段旅程。
It's been a slow process, but we've gotten to the point now where we've just retrained our pallets.
这是一个缓慢的过程，但我们现在已经到了刚刚重新训练托盘的地步。
And it's amazing how this happens now, where I'll have something that is something that I would've ...
令人惊奇的是现在发生了这样的事，我将拥有一些我本来想要的东西......
used to have-
曾经有-
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
...
...
is something that I would've used to have daily, and it's unpalatable.
这是我以前每天都会吃的东西，但它很难吃。
I just can't deal with the sweetness of it.
我只是无法应对它的甜蜜。
And so I certainly avoid artificial sweeteners, but I also avoid just sweet things in general that have sugar in them, just because, originally, I was trying to be disciplined and trying to change my diet, but now they just don't taste good to me.
所以我当然会避免使用人造甜味剂，但我也会避免一般含有糖的甜食，只是因为，最初，我试图自律并试图改变我的饮食习惯，但现在它们对我来说味道不好。
PART 2 OF 4 ENDS Andrew Huberman:
第 2 部分（共 4 部分）结束 Andrew Huberman：
Yeah, likewise, I completely lost my appetite for sugar at the turn of the last year.
是的，同样，去年年初我完全失去了对糖的胃口。
And I don't know how to explain it, but even though I don't have a mechanistic explanation, I just say I like sweet people, I don't like sweet food anymore.
我不知道如何解释，但即使我没有机械性的解释，我只是说我喜欢甜的人，我不再喜欢甜的食物了。
I just don't.
我只是不知道。
I have not lost my appetite for fatty foods.
我并没有失去对高脂肪食物的胃口。
I love cheese and certain meats.
我喜欢奶酪和某些肉类。
For me, I blame my Argentine lineage.
对我来说，我责怪我的阿根廷血统。
I gravitate towards them.
我被他们吸引。
But in any case, avoiding processed foods, probably avoiding sugars, emulsifiers, these kinds of things.
但无论如何，避免加工食品，可能避免糖、乳化剂之类的东西。
And for people listening or watching, we're not setting up strict guidelines, we're just bouncing around the carnival that is the microbiome and nutrition.
对于听众或观看者来说，我们并没有制定严格的指导方针，我们只是在微生物组和营养的狂欢节上跳来跳去。
Because I think that we hear this everywhere, "Eat this, don't eat that," or, "This is best for microbiome," or, "worse for microbiome." But I'm hearing fiber again and again.
因为我认为我们到处都会听到这样的话，“吃这个，不要吃那个”，或者“这对微生物组来说最好”，或者“对微生物组来说更糟糕”。但我一次又一次地听到光纤的声音。
So we're going to come back to fiber, but I want to make sure that we close the hatch on this issue of fasting and cleansing.
因此，我们将回到纤维问题上，但我想确保我们在禁食和清洁问题上关闭了舱口。
Based on your answer earlier, it sounds to me it is not necessary to do a cleanse or fast prior to an attempt to repopulate the microbiome.
根据您之前的回答，在我看来，在尝试重新填充微生物组之前没有必要进行净化或禁食。
In other words, if I want to make my microbiome healthier, it sounds like I don't have to try and flush all the current microbiome out of there first.
换句话说，如果我想让我的微生物组更健康，听起来我不必先尝试将当前的所有微生物组清除掉。
Is that correct?
这是正确的吗？
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
Yeah, it's a very good question.
是的，这是一个非常好的问题。
And I don't mean to suggest that those things are known to be terrible, or I would just say the studies haven't been done.
我并不是说这些事情众所周知是可怕的，或者我只是说这些研究还没有完成。
And to me, wiping out this microbial community, unless it's done in an informed way, and we don't really have the information for how that would be done, it just seems like playing the lottery a little bit.
对我来说，消灭这个微生物群落，除非以一种知情的方式完成，而且我们并没有真正掌握如何做到这一点的信息，这似乎有点像玩彩票。
It may be that when the study is done, those are shown to be amazing, but I just don't think we have the data to know that yet.
当研究完成后，这些可能会被证明是令人惊奇的，但我认为我们还没有数据来了解这一点。
So it's somewhat of an arbitrary thing.
所以这有点随意。
If somebody out there feels way better when they do this and are not experiencing problems with it, then maybe it's the right thing for them.
如果有人在这样做时感觉好多了并且没有遇到问题，那么也许这对他们来说是正确的。
But I certainly can't say that it's something great to do.
但我当然不能说这是一件伟大的事情。
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
I can imagine a future where as the microbiome gets incorporated into this emerging paradigm of precision health, you go into a clinic, somebody types your microbiome and says, "Oh, there's this huge massive misconfiguration.
我可以想象未来，当微生物组被纳入这种新兴的精准健康范例时，你走进一家诊所，有人输入你的微生物组并说：“哦，这是一个巨大的错误配置。
You have all these engrafted bacteria that are residents in your gut microbiome that are sending out molecules that are not good for your health.
所有这些植入的细菌都居住在您的肠道微生物组中，它们会发出对您的健康不利的分子。
It would be good if we do a mass reprogramming of it.
如果我们对其进行大规模重新编程，那就太好了。
The way that we do that is we flush your gut, and we actually give a light antibiotic treatment to try to kill everything that's there.
我们这样做的方法是冲洗你的肠道，实际上我们会给予轻微的抗生素治疗，试图杀死那里的所有东西。
And then we repopulate with this other consortium of microbes that we've studied and know are healthy, know are compatible with your human genome and can be reinforced with the diet that we know is good for you.
然后，我们重新填充我们已经研究过的其他微生物群落，这些微生物群是健康的，与您的人类基因组兼容，并且可以通过我们知道对您有益的饮食来强化。
We'll install those microbes.
我们将安装这些微生物。
We'll help you along in the diet, so you know how to nourish those microbes, and that will be the way that we'll reconfigure your gut microbiome."
我们将在饮食方面帮助您，让您知道如何滋养这些微生物，这将是我们重新配置您的肠道微生物组的方式。”
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
So I can imagine a future where that sort of flushing or cleansing is part of something for repopulating the gut.
所以我可以想象在未来，这种冲洗或清洁是重新填充肠道的一部分。
But right now it seems a little half-baked to me.
但现在对我来说似乎有点不成熟。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Great.
伟大的。
I'd love to talk about fiber and fermented foods because you and Chris had what I think is a really interesting and exciting paper at the end of last year about comparing the inflammatome, so inflammatory markers, of people who ate a certain amount of fiber or a certain amount of these fermented foods.
我很想谈谈纤维和发酵食品，因为去年年底你和克里斯发表了一篇我认为非常有趣和令人兴奋的论文，内容是比较食用一定量纤维或一定量发酵食品的人的炎症组，即炎症标记物。
This study is amazing for several reasons, but almost as amazing as how diverse the interpretation of this study was in the media.
这项研究之所以令人惊奇，有几个原因，但几乎与媒体对这项研究的解释有多么多样化一样令人惊奇。
If ever there was a study that was kind of hijacked by different priority schemes out there, it's this study.
如果说有一项研究被不同的优先方案劫持了，那就是这项研究。
So you performed the study with Chris and your postdocs and graduate students and staff.
因此，您与克里斯以及您的博士后、研究生和工作人员一起进行了这项研究。
What are the major conclusions, and what sorts of directives, if any, emerge from this study?
这项研究的主要结论是什么，以及哪些类型的指导（如果有的话）？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I'll just preface this again by saying that, if I wasn't clear, some news report said, "Ah, this means fiber is not important." And then others said, "This means fermented foods and fiber are important." And others said, "Fermented foods are the thing, and the only thing." It was all over the place.
我将再次作为序言说，如果我不清楚的话，一些新闻报道说，“啊，这意味着纤维并不重要。”然后其他人说，“这意味着发酵食品和纤维很重要。”其他人则说：“发酵食品是唯一的东西。”到处都是。
And one of the reasons for doing this podcast at all is so that we can go straight to the people who perform the work, and even though I'm certainly not expert in microbiome, give you the opportunity to share with me and me to ask the kinds of questions that have ...
做这个播客的原因之一是，我们可以直接接触从事这项工作的人，尽管我肯定不是微生物组方面的专家，但让你有机会与我分享，让我提出各种问题……
I have zero agenda.
我的议程为零。
I do like sauerkraut.
我很喜欢酸菜。
I do drink the occasional kombucha.
我偶尔喝康普茶。
I do like low-sugar, not-so-sweet forms of fermented foods.
我确实喜欢低糖、不太甜的发酵食品。
So I would be delighted if fermented foods are good for me, but I have no stake in the fermented food industry.
因此，如果发酵食品对我有好处，我会很高兴，但我在发酵食品行业没有利益。
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
Yeah, absolutely.
是的，绝对是。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Great.
伟大的。
Yeah.
是的。
Wonderful.
精彩的。
And an important note there is the one you pointed out that this is an incredible collaboration with Christopher Gardner's lab and a bunch of people.
重要的是你指出这是与克里斯托弗·加德纳的实验室和一群人的令人难以置信的合作。
Erica Sonnenberg helped lead this study and then tons of, like you were saying, postdoc staff and other people at Stanford, and then wonderful participants that were part of this study.
艾丽卡·索南伯格 (Erica Sonnenberg) 帮助领导了这项研究，然后是斯坦福大学的大量博士后工作人员和其他人员，以及参与这项研究的出色参与者。
So a huge team effort.
所以这是一个巨大的团队努力。
Before I dive into that study, let me take a step back because I think the reason that we did this study, and Christopher's group and our group have started to pursue this line of looking at dietary interventions and how they impact our microbiome, how they impact human biology — goes back to this kind of epiphany that we had while studying the gut microbiome because, I think, when we started studying it at Stanford, we were thinking about it as this kind of newly appreciated aspect of our biology.
在我深入研究这项研究之前，让我先退后一步，因为我认为我们进行这项研究的原因，克里斯托弗的团队和我们的团队已经开始追求饮食干预以及它们如何影响我们的微生物组，它们如何影响人类生物学——可以追溯到我们在研究肠道微生物组时的这种顿悟，因为我认为，当我们开始在斯坦福大学研究它时，我们将其视为我们生物学的这种新认识的方面。
Almost like finding an organ that we didn't know was there.
几乎就像找到了一个我们不知道的器官一样。
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
And starting to think about all the drug targets that were there.
并开始思考那里的所有药物靶标。
Can we go in with small molecule drugs and think of ways to manipulate this community to ameliorate disease?
我们可以使用小分子药物并想出操纵这个群体来改善疾病的方法吗？
And this is largely the mindset of Western medicine and largely born out of the era of infectious disease.
这在很大程度上是西方医学的思维方式，并且很大程度上诞生于传染病时代。
You wait for an infection to start a bacterial infection.
您等待感染开始细菌感染。
You treat with antibiotics, and that's the way medicine is practiced, and that's become less successful over time as we've moved into this era of inflammatory Western diseases, and with the exception of the current pandemic that's sweeping the world, largely moved out of the era of infectious diseases, at least infectious bacterial diseases, that this paradigm of waiting for diseases to appear and come into the clinic is not really very effective in the context of inflammatory Western diseases, autoimmune diseases, metabolic syndrome, heart diseases, and inflammatory diseases.
你用抗生素治疗，这就是医学的实践方式，随着时间的推移，随着我们进入这个西方炎症性疾病的时代，这种方法变得不那么成功了，除了目前席卷全球的大流行，基本上已经脱离了传染病时代，至少是传染性细菌性疾病，这种等待疾病出现并进入临床的模式在西方炎症性疾病、自身免疫性疾病、代谢综合征、心脏病和炎症性疾病的背景下并不是非常有效。
The list goes on and on.
这样的例子不胜枚举。
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
And so we started to think a lot about how can we get out in front of this?
所以我们开始思考如何才能摆脱困境？
How can we think about preventative ways of dealing with this crisis of metabolic and inflammatory diseases?
我们如何思考应对代谢和炎症疾病危机的预防方法？
And this tremendous beautiful body of literature started to come forward in the field about 10 years ago that showed that the gut microbiome is absolutely critical to modulating our immune status.
大约 10 年前，大量精彩的文献开始在该领域出现，表明肠道微生物组对于调节我们的免疫状态绝对至关重要。
So if you change the microbiome, you can fundamentally change how the immune system operates.
因此，如果改变微生物组，就可以从根本上改变免疫系统的运作方式。
And we know that the immune system is at the basis of a lot of these diseases, inflammatory chronic diseases.
我们知道，免疫系统是许多此类疾病（炎症性慢性疾病）的基础。
And so it brought up this possibility that maybe the fact that we're not nourishing this community well enough.
因此，它提出了这种可能性，也许是我们没有足够好地滋养这个社区的事实。
Maybe the fact that it's deteriorated over time due to all of the things that go along with an industrialized lifestyle, antibiotics, and so forth.
也许事实是，随着时间的推移，由于工业化生活方式、抗生素等带来的所有因素，它会恶化。
Maybe we have a microbiome right now in the industrialized world that is setting our immune system at a set point, simmering inflammation that's driving us towards these inflammatory diseases.
也许我们现在在工业化世界中有一个微生物组，它正在将我们的免疫系统设定在一个设定点，引发炎症，从而驱使我们患上这些炎症性疾病。
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
And wouldn't it be wonderful if we could figure out how to use diet, specifically, but just kind of learn the rules of how to reconfigure both the composition and function of our gut microbiome, so that inflammation was different in our bodies, so that each one of us was less likely to go on and to develop an inflammatory disease, leading to better longevity and health over the course of our life.
如果我们能够弄清楚如何具体使用饮食，但只是学习如何重新配置肠道微生物组的组成和功能的规则，从而使我们体内的炎症不同，从而使我们每个人都不太可能继续发展炎症性疾病，从而在我们的一生中获得更好的寿命和健康，那不是很棒吗？
So we were studying this actually in mouse models and realizing that we really needed to start doing human studies.
因此，我们实际上在小鼠模型中研究了这一点，并意识到我们确实需要开始进行人体研究。
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
We needed to start studying microbiome in humans, and because we were studying diet, we knew that this was something we could go in and do right away.
我们需要开始研究人类微生物组，因为我们正在研究饮食，所以我们知道这是我们可以立即去做的事情。
We didn't have to apply for FDA approval for a drug before we could do a human study.
在进行人体研究之前，我们不必申请 FDA 批准药物。
We could just start doing human dietary interventions, longitudinally monitoring the immune system and the microbiome, and starting to put the pieces together of what is it in diet that can change our microbiome in a healthy way, help us define what a healthy microbiome is, and monitor the immune system in great detail.
我们可以开始进行人类饮食干预，纵向监测免疫系统和微生物组，并开始将饮食中的哪些成分组合在一起，可以以健康的方式改变我们的微生物组，帮助我们定义什么是健康的微生物组，并详细监测免疫系统。
And so there were really two critical components of this in addition to our microbiome expertise.
因此，除了我们的微生物组专业知识之外，实际上还有两个关键组成部分。
One was Christopher Gardner's group.
其中之一是克里斯托弗·加德纳的小组。
We wanted to do these human studies, but we're absolutely terrified of humans.
我们想做这些人类研究，但我们绝对害怕人类。
We work with mice.
我们与老鼠一起工作。
Humans are terrifying in many ways.
人类在很多方面都是令人恐惧的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But they house themselves.
但他们自己住。
You don't have pay for their housing.
你没有钱支付他们的住房费用。
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
That's true.
确实如此。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
For those that can afford housing, of course.
当然，对于那些买得起住房的人来说。
Yeah.
是的。
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
Yeah.
是的。
Sadly, just for that portion of the population.
可悲的是，仅针对那部分人口。
So Christopher's group, they are masters at working with human populations.
克里斯托弗的团队是与人类合作的大师。
And then the other wonderful thing that we have at Stanford is this Human Immune Monitoring Center, run by Mark Davis and Holden Maecker.
我们在斯坦福大学拥有的另一件奇妙的事情是由马克·戴维斯和霍顿·梅克管理的人类免疫监测中心。
They started this beautiful center for allowing people to do immunology in humans.
他们创办了这个美丽的中心，让人们能够对人体进行免疫学研究。
Critical element because a lot of the mouse studies don't translate well to humans.
这是一个关键因素，因为许多小鼠研究并不能很好地应用于人类。
So if you can do the studies in humans, similar to how we are thinking about the microbiome, you learn something that you know is relevant to humans.
因此，如果你能在人类身上进行研究，类似于我们对微生物组的思考，你就会学到一些你知道与人类相关的东西。
And so having that immune-profiling capability where we can monitor hundreds to thousands of different parameters in the immune system longitudinally in people from a blood draw, and not just know if CRP goes up or if interleukin-6 goes up or down.
因此，有了免疫分析功能，我们可以通过抽血纵向监测人体免疫系统中数百至数千个不同的参数，而不仅仅是了解 CRP 是否上升或白细胞介素 6 是否上升或下降。
But to be able to see all these facets of the immune system change in concert as we're changing the microbiome with diet, was really a key component of this.
但是，当我们通过饮食改变微生物组时，能够看到免疫系统的所有这些方面的协同变化，确实是其中的一个关键组成部分。
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
And so our flagship study supported by wonderful donors ...
因此，我们的旗舰研究得到了优秀捐助者的支持......
So this actually isn't funded by typical foundations and national institutes of health.
所以这实际上并不是由典型的基金会和国家卫生研究院资助的。
It was funded by philanthropy.
它是由慈善事业资助的。
We wanted to understand if we put people on a high-fiber diet, how would that affect their microbiome and immune system.
我们想了解如果我们让人们接受高纤维饮食，这会如何影响他们的微生物组和免疫系统。
And if we put them on a high-fermented-food diet, a diet rich in live microbes and all the metabolites that are present from fermentation in foods, how would that change microbiome in immune system?
如果我们让他们接受高发酵食物饮食，富含活微生物和食物发酵产生的所有代谢物，这将如何改变免疫系统中的微生物组？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Could you give us some examples of what those diets look like?
您能给我们举一些例子来说明这些饮食是什么样的吗？
And were you changing their basal diet, or were you just adding things on top of what they were already eating?
您是否改变了他们的基础饮食，或者您只是在他们已经吃的东西上添加了一些东西？
Because it's hard to change people's diets.
因为改变人们的饮食习惯是很困难的。
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
It's very hard.
这很难。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You need to trust that they actually do it and they're not sneaking and-
你需要相信他们确实这么做了，而且不是偷偷摸摸的——
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
Totally.
完全可以。
Yeah.
是的。
So we've started the Center for Human Microbiome Studies at Stanford for doing a lot of these studies.
因此，我们在斯坦福大学成立了人类微生物组研究中心来进行大量此类研究。
And a portion of the studies we do focus on supplements, probiotics, microbes delivered in pill form; prebiotics, which are purified forms of fiber.
我们的部分研究重点是补充剂、益生菌、以药丸形式提供的微生物；益生元，是纤维的纯化形式。
And in those cases, we actually can have placebo groups because it's more like a drug study.
在这些情况下，我们实际上可以有安慰剂组，因为它更像是一项药物研究。
And we don't change people's diets.
我们不会改变人们的饮食。
So we can just administer this on top of what they're doing.
所以我们可以在他们正在做的事情之上进行管理。
So in a way, they're a lot more controlled, but it's not food.
所以在某种程度上，它们受到了更多的控制，但这不是食物。
When you start doing food studies, you can't do a placebo group because people know what they're eating.
当你开始进行食物研究时，你不能做安慰剂组，因为人们知道他们在吃什么。
And the other problem is that it's really hard to just change one thing because as soon as you start adding something, people usually eliminate something else.
另一个问题是，仅仅改变一件事真的很难，因为一旦你开始添加一些东西，人们通常会删除其他东西。
So the idea was to basically give these people simple instructions for ...
所以我们的想法基本上是给这些人简单的指示......
in the case of the high-fiber diet, just increasing plant-based fiber.
在高纤维饮食的情况下，只需增加植物纤维即可。
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
So can you eat more whole grains, more legumes, more vegetables, nuts, get the fiber up in the range of from 15 to 20 grams per day up to over 40 grams per day.
因此，您可以多吃全谷物、豆类、蔬菜、坚果，将纤维摄入量提高到每天 15 至 20 克，最多每天 40 克以上。
So can you kind of double or more the amount of fiber that you eat per day, knowing that would have a tremendous impact on a lot of other facets of their diet.
那么，您是否可以将每天摄入的纤维量增加一倍或更多，因为您知道这会对饮食的许多其他方面产生巨大影响。
They eat less meat, animal-based protein, less animal-based fats as a product of this.
因此，他们吃的肉、动物性蛋白质、动物性脂肪都更少。
I will say that, getting back to Christopher's rule for a healthy diet, a lot of the macronutrient changes that we saw in their diet were consistent with healthy changes in diet, less saturated fat, less animal-based protein, more plant-based protein.
我要说的是，回到克里斯托弗的健康饮食规则，我们在他们的饮食中看到的许多常量营养素的变化与饮食的健康变化是一致的，饱和脂肪减少，动物性蛋白质减少，植物性蛋白质增加。
So a lot of changes that are known to be beneficial kind of came in concert with just telling people, "Eat a high-fiber diet, high-plant-based-fiber diet.
因此，许多已知有益的改变都与告诉人们“吃高纤维饮食、高植物纤维饮食”相一致。
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
The people that were eating the high-fermented-food diet, they were instructed to basically eat foods that you could buy at a grocery store that were naturally fermented and contained live microbes.
那些吃高发酵食物的人被要求基本上吃那些你可以在杂货店买到的自然发酵且含有活微生物的食物。
And so this largely consisted of yogurt, kefir, sauerkraut, kimchi, some fermented vegetables, kind of brine-fermented vegetables.
所以这主要由酸奶、开菲尔、酸菜、泡菜、一些发酵蔬菜、一种盐水发酵蔬菜组成。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Pickles.
泡菜。
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
Pickles, things like that.
泡菜什么的。
One of the things that I think is a pitfall in choosing fermented foods is you can go down the canned food aisle, and there's this huge section of pickles and jars that are canned.
我认为选择发酵食品的一个陷阱是你可以沿着罐头食品通道走下去，那里有一大堆泡菜和罐装罐头。
Those are not fermented foods.
这些不是发酵食品。
Those are cucumbers that they've put in acetic acid and vinegar to reconstitute that fermented flavor.
他们将这些黄瓜放入醋酸和醋中以恢复发酵风味。
But there's no live microbes involved in that.
但其中不涉及活微生物。
And even sauerkraut in the canned food aisle, even if they were naturally fermented, quite often they're not, quite often they're just brined in vinegar.
即使是罐头食品货架上的酸菜，即使它们是自然发酵的，但通常不是，通常只是用醋腌制。
But even if they are naturally fermented, all the microbes are killed prior to canning or during the process of canning.
但即使它们是自然发酵的，所有微生物在罐装之前或罐装过程中也会被杀死。
So what we use for this study, and if you want to have live fermented foods that contain live microbes, you need to buy those out of the refrigerated section, essentially.
所以我们在这项研究中使用的东西，如果你想要含有活微生物的活发酵食品，你基本上需要从冷藏区购买它们。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I'm really glad you pointed this out because you can find sauerkraut on the nonrefrigerated shelf that is indeed nonfermented.
我真的很高兴你指出了这一点，因为你可以在非冷藏货架上找到确实未发酵的酸菜。
A lot of fermented foods that are available in the U.S. can be high in sugar.
美国提供的许多发酵食品的糖含量可能很高。
So was there any instruction as to getting people to make sure that they were consuming yogurts that weren't loaded with sugar?
那么，是否有任何指示可以让人们确保他们食用的酸奶不含糖呢？
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or did you let them just select the stuff in the cold section that is fermented?
或者你让他们只选择冷区发酵的东西？
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
No. It is a super important point.
不，这是非常重要的一点。
We instructed people to eat nonsweetened yogurts.
我们指导人们吃不加糖的酸奶。
I think a huge pitfall in this area is you can have a yogurt loaded with bacteria, kind of the base of what's healthy, and then a ton of artificial flavoring and sugar loaded on top of that.
我认为这方面的一个巨大陷阱是你可以喝一种富含细菌的酸奶，这是健康的基础，然后在上面添加大量的人工香料和糖。
Manufacturers put a ton of sugar in after the fact to kind of mask the sour taste of fermented foods, which is hard for some people to become accustomed to.
制造商在事后加入大量糖，以掩盖发酵食品的酸味，这对一些人来说很难习惯。
When we were switching to more fermented foods, our daughters were young at that point, we would take plain yogurt, which they didn't like just kind of neat.
当我们转向更多发酵食品时，我们的女儿那时还小，我们会吃原味酸奶，她们不喜欢纯酸奶。
We would mix in a little maple syrup or honey, just a little bit.
我们会加入一点枫糖浆或蜂蜜，就一点点。
And gradually we would reduce that over time to the point where their pallete adjusted, and now they just really like plain yogurt.
随着时间的推移，我们会逐渐减少这一点，直到他们的口味进行调整，现在他们真的很喜欢原味酸奶。
But it is, I think, getting used to that sour flavor is difficult, but people really should try to stay away from those fermented foods that are loaded with sugar.
但我认为，习惯酸味是很困难的，但人们确实应该尽量远离那些富含糖分的发酵食品。
And that's what we instructed people in this study.
这就是我们在这项研究中指导人们的内容。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And beer was not included, right?
而且啤酒不包括在内，对吗？
The number of people that asked when I did a brief thing on social media about this study, and hopefully I got it right, I think I did.
当我在社交媒体上对这项研究做了简短的介绍时，有很多人问我，希望我做对了，我想我做到了。
But people just ask about beer.
但人们只是问啤酒。
I'm not a drinker, so for me, beer has no appeal anyway.
我不喝酒，所以对我来说，啤酒无论如何都没有吸引力。
But beer is fermented, correct?
但啤酒是发酵的，对吗？
But were they instructed to avoid beer or to drink beer?
但他们是否被告知要避免喝啤酒或喝啤酒呢？
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
Just to go with their normal dietary habits.
只要遵循正常的饮食习惯即可。
But that did not count as a fermented food.
但这不算发酵食品。
And-
还有——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Kombucha was, as I recall?
我记得康普茶是吗？
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
Kombucha was, and kombucha can have small amounts of alcohol in it.
康普茶是，康普茶中可能含有少量酒精。
Kombucha actually was one of the major things that people drank, or consumed, during the fermented food phase.
康普茶实际上是人们在发酵食品阶段饮用或消耗的主要食物之一。
And the deal with beer is that there may be beneficial properties of the microbial communities in naturally fermented beer, but most of the beer that we buy, again, is canned and filtered, and there's no live microbes there.
啤酒的问题在于，自然发酵的啤酒中的微生物群落可能具有有益的特性，但我们购买的大多数啤酒都是罐装和过滤的，里面没有活微生物。
So very different than if you siphon it off of your home brew and drink it, probably, than if you buy it in a store.
这与您从家酿啤酒中吸出并饮用它可能与在商店购买它有很大不同。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I will get to the results of the study in just one moment.
我一会儿就会得到研究结果。
But I want to say a lot of people shy away from the high-quality fermented foods because they can be quite costly.
但我想说，很多人都回避高质量的发酵食品，因为它们可能非常昂贵。
And I'll just refer people to a resource in Tim Ferris's book "The 4-Hour Chef." He actually gives an excellent recipe for making your own sauerkraut, which basically involves cabbage and water and salt, but you have to do it properly because you can grow, not necessarily lethal, but somewhat dangerous bacteria if you don't scrape off the top layer properly.
我只会向人们推荐蒂姆·费里斯 (Tim Ferris) 的书《四小时厨师》中的资源。他实际上给出了一个制作自己酸菜的绝佳配方，基本上涉及卷心菜、水和盐，但你必须正确地做，因为如果你不正确地刮掉顶层，你可能会生长，不一定致命，但有些危险的细菌。
But he gives beautiful instructions for how to do this in vats.
但他给出了如何在桶中进行此操作的精美说明。
We've started doing this at home now, actually, which is a ceramic vat.
事实上，我们现在已经开始在家里做这个了，这是一个陶瓷桶。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And you can make large amounts of truly fermented sauerkraut just from cabbage, water, and salt if you're willing to follow the protocol.
如果您愿意遵循该协议，您可以仅用卷心菜、水和盐来制作大量真正发酵的酸菜。
And if you're interested in science, that protocol looks a lot like what you'll do for most of your graduate career, except maybe some sequencing too.
如果你对科学感兴趣，这个协议看起来很像你在研究生生涯的大部分时间里要做的事情，除了一些测序之外。
So anyway, just to refer people to a source that's very low cost, compared to buying the high-quality fermented foods.
所以无论如何，只是为了向人们推荐一种与购买高质量发酵食品相比成本非常低的来源。
Even kombuchas, it's like five dollars a bottle and only this much.
即使是康普茶，一瓶也只有五美元，而且也只有这么多。
And if you consume liquids the way I consume them, that's just the start.
如果你像我一样饮用液体，那么这只是一个开始。
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
Yeah.
是的。
But if you can get your hands on a scoby, kombucha's another one that's super simple, it's like-
但如果你能买到史考比，康普茶是另一种超级简单的东西，就像——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You can grow your own.
你可以自己种植。
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
You can just make your own, and it's super easy to do.
您可以自己制作，而且非常容易做到。
I constantly have a batch of kombucha going at home, and it's this, it's a scoby — symbiotic community of bacteria and yeast — that you brew tea, you add sugar to it, and you put the scoby in, and you wait a week or two depending upon the temperature, and then you just move the scoby over to a new batch and what the scoby was in is kombucha.
我家里经常放一批康普茶，就是这样，它是一个斯科比——细菌和酵母的共生群落——你泡茶，加糖，然后把斯科比放进去，根据温度等待一两周，然后你把斯科比移到新一批，斯科比里面的就是康普茶。
And it's wonderful.
这太棒了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I love it.
我喜欢它。
I would love it if members of the audience would start to make their own kombucha.
如果观众开始制作自己的康普茶，我会很高兴。
I've been having so much fun.
我玩得很开心。
I don't do it, but it's done in our home.
我不做，但我们家就是这么做的。
I don't go anywhere near the food production, and it's for everyone's benefit.
我不会去任何靠近粮食生产的地方，这是为了每个人的利益。
So how much fermented food and then ...
那么发酵食品需要多少，然后......
were they consuming?
他们消费了吗？
Because you mentioned the number of grams, approximately of fiber, but was it in servings, ounces, how many times a day?
因为你提到了大约是纤维的克数，但是是以份数、盎司、一天多少次来表示的？
Early day, late day?
早点，晚点？
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
Right.
对。
Yeah.
是的。
So we had a wonderful dietician instructing people for this, and her name's Dalia Perelman.
因此，我们有一位出色的营养师来指导人们这样做，她的名字叫达莉亚·佩雷尔曼（Dalia Perelman）。
And she really was the key, and is the key for many of our studies for getting people to eat differently.
她确实是关键，也是我们许多让人们以不同方式饮食的研究的关键。
And the general instructions were for people to eat as much fermented foods as possible, more is better.
一般的指示是人们尽可能多地吃发酵食品，越多越好。
And the reason is that with this initial study, we really wanted to maximize our chance of seeing a signal if there was something biological going on.
原因是，通过这项初步研究，我们确实希望最大限度地提高在发生生物学事件时看到信号的机会。
With the idea that if the dose was excessive and not easily achievable by a lot of people, in the end we can go back and say, "Okay, this is the point at which we lose the biological signal." But people during the height of the intervention phase, the intervention phase was six weeks.
如果剂量过多并且很多人都不容易达到，那么最终我们可以回过头来说，“好吧，这就是我们失去生物信号的点。”但人们正处于干预阶段的高峰期，干预阶段为六周。
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
During the height of that were up over six servings on average per day of fermented foods.
在高峰期，平均每天食用的发酵食品增加了六份以上。
So kind of two servings at each meal, and the ounces or weight or size, it really depended on what the fermented food was.
每顿饭吃两份，以及盎司、重量或大小，这实际上取决于发酵食品是什么。
And we just told them to stick to what was a recommended dose on the package that they were buying.
我们只是告诉他们坚持购买包装上推荐的剂量。
For Kombucha it would be like a six- to eight-ounce glass.
对于康普茶来说，它就像一杯六到八盎司的饮料。
Sauerkraut, like a half cup or something like that, and the same with yogurt.
酸菜，半杯之类的，酸奶也一样。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Great.
太棒了。
So what were the results?
那么结果如何呢？
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
Yeah, so the results astounded us in a way, but then thinking more deeply, it'll be evident even after I explain it in the context of this conversation, likely, why we saw the results we saw.
是的，结果在某种程度上让我们感到震惊，但更深入地思考，即使我在这次对话的背景下解释它，很可能，为什么我们看到我们看到的结果，它也会很明显。
The results were astounding because our hypothesis going into this was that the high-fiber diet was going to give the massive signal.
结果令人震惊，因为我们对此的假设是高纤维饮食会发出大量信号。
We know that this is the big deficiency in the Western diet.
我们知道，这是西方饮食的一大缺陷。
All the mouse studies have told us that high fiber really leads to a much healthier microbiota and can lead to positive changes in the immune system.
所有的小鼠研究都告诉我们，高纤维确实可以带来更健康的微生物群，并可以导致免疫系统发生积极的变化。
And in fact, we had wonderful donor support, but still a limited amount of money.
事实上，我们得到了很好的捐助者支持，但资金仍然有限。
When we started this study, my lab was really very eager to do the high-fiber part of this really well, and Christopher kind of had to twist our arms to do the fermented-food side of it.
当我们开始这项研究时，我的实验室真的非常渴望把高纤维部分做得很好，克里斯托弗有点不得不扭转我们的手臂来完成发酵食品方面。
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
And we thought it was kind of quirky and neat.
我们认为这有点古怪又简洁。
"Live microbes should be exciting, let's try it." So we put that in, and it turns out that we were very thankful that he twisted our arms because it was that high-fermented food arm that really gave us the big signal, even though our hypothesis was that the high fiber was going to lead to more short chain fatty acids produced in the gut, more diverse microbiota, less inflammation in the immune system.
“活微生物应该很令人兴奋，让我们尝试一下。”所以我们把它放进去，事实证明，我们非常感谢他扭转了我们的手臂，因为正是高发酵食物手臂真正给了我们很大的信号，尽管我们的假设是高纤维会导致肠道中产生更多的短链脂肪酸，更多样化的微生物群，更少的免疫系统炎症。
We didn't see that across the cohort.
我们在整个队列中没有看到这一点。
We actually saw very individualized responses to the dietary fiber.
我们实际上看到了对膳食纤维的非常个性化的反应。
And I'll come back to what those responses were.
我会回到这些回应是什么。
The big signal, really, was in the fermented-food group.
事实上，最大的信号来自发酵食品组。
We saw all the things that you would hope to see in a Western microbiota and Western human.
我们看到了你希望在西方微生物群和西方人类身上看到的所有东西。
We saw this increase in microbiota diversity over the course of the six weeks while they were consuming the fermented foods.
在他们食用发酵食品的六周内，我们看到微生物群多样性的增加。
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
And we can't always say that higher diversity is better when it comes to our microbial communities.
我们不能总是说微生物群落的多样性越高越好。
We know there are cases, for instance, bacterial vaginosis, where higher diversity is actually indicative of a diseased state.
我们知道，在某些情况下，例如细菌性阴道病，较高的多样性实际上表明存在疾病状态。
But we know in the context of the gut and for people living in the industrialized world, higher diversity is generally better.
但我们知道，对于生活在工业化世界的人们来说，肠道的多样性通常越高越好。
We know that there's a spectrum of diversity.
我们知道存在一系列多样性。
People with higher diversity generally are healthier; if you can push your diversity higher, you're in better shape.
多样性较高的人通常更健康；如果你能提高你的多样性，你就会处于更好的状态。
And so we saw that increase in diversity.
所以我们看到了多样性的增加。
And then the major question is what happened to the immune system as these people were increasing their gut microbiota diversity through the fermented foods.
然后主要的问题是，当这些人通过发酵食品增加肠道微生物群多样性时，免疫系统发生了什么变化。
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
So we did this massive immune profiling, and we see a couple dozen immune markers, inflammatory markers decrease over the course of the study.
因此，我们进行了大规模的免疫分析，我们看到几十种免疫标记物、炎症标记物在研究过程中减少了。
So we measure these at multiple time points throughout the course of the study.
因此，我们在整个研究过程中的多个时间点对这些进行测量。
And there's kind of this set stepwise reduction in things like interleukin-6 and interleukin-12, a variety of famous inflammatory mediators.
白细胞介素 6 和白细胞介素 12（多种著名的炎症介质）等物质会逐步减少。
And then even if you go into the immune cells, and you start looking at their signaling cascades, we see that those signaling cascades are less activated at the end of the study, compared to the beginning of the study, indicating an attenuation of inflammation.
然后，即使你进入免疫细胞，并开始观察它们的信号级联，我们也会发现，与研究开始时相比，这些信号级联在研究结束时的激活程度较低，这表明炎症减弱。
So kind of exactly what we would hypothesize would lead to less propensity for inflammatory disease over time.
这正是我们所假设的，随着时间的推移，炎症性疾病的可能性会降低。
That's a huge extension of a very short study initiative.
这是一项非常短期的研究计划的巨大延伸。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
How long was this study again?
这项研究又持续了多长时间？
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
So the complete protocol, I think, was 14 to 17 weeks or something like that.
所以我认为完整的方案是 14 到 17 周或类似的时间。
The actual intervention phase consisted of a four-week ramp and then a six-week maintenance period.
实际的干预阶段包括为期四周的斜坡期和六周的维护期。
So the intervention itself was 10 weeks, but there were six weeks of really kind of hardcore high levels of fiber or fermented foods.
因此，干预本身为期 10 周，但有六周的时间是真正核心的高水平纤维或发酵食品。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
And I'm glad you mentioned the ramp because my experience with fermented foods is that it can be beneficial to give the system an opportunity to acclimate.
我很高兴你提到了斜坡，因为我对发酵食品的经验是，给系统一个适应的机会是有益的。
I mean, if you consume a giant bowl of sauerkraut, it's not going to be the worst day and night of your life, but you'll know you did.
我的意思是，如果你吃了一大碗酸菜，这不会是你一生中最糟糕的一天和一夜，但你会知道你做到了。
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
Totally.
完全可以。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We'll just leave it at that.
我们就这样吧。
And so you want to kind of acclimate to it.
所以你想要适应它。
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm at the point now where, some people might think this is gross, but after I exercise, I've been sweating a lot, I actually drink the liquid that the sauerkraut has been stewing in.
我现在已经到了这样的地步，有些人可能会觉得这很恶心，但我运动后出汗很多，我实际上喝了酸菜炖的液体。
And I like to think that I consume some fermentation that way.
我喜欢认为我以这种方式消耗了一些发酵。
It's salty, it acts as kind of a post-training replenishment, but if I had done that six months ago straight off, I think it would've been pretty rough on my system.
它是咸的，它可以作为训练后的补充，但如果我在六个月前立即这样做，我认为这对我的系统来说会非常困难。
I started taking little bits of it and then adding it each day.
我开始服用一点点，然后每天添加。
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
Totally.
完全可以。
And so both with the fermented foods and the fiber, it's well-known that this kind of gradual ramping is a really important way of mitigating bloating and other kind of digestive discomfort that can happen when your microbiome reconfigures and starts fermenting more and changing community members.
因此，众所周知，对于发酵食品和纤维来说，这种逐渐增加的量是缓解腹胀和其他消化不适的非常重要的方法，当您的微生物组重新配置并开始更多发酵并改变群落成员时，可能会发生这种情况。
So you should take that ramp at your own pace.
所以你应该按照自己的节奏走上坡道。
If something seems to be going wrong, just kind of level off, stay there.
如果出现问题，只是趋于平稳，就留在那儿。
We did this in a very delicate way to get people up to the high dose.
我们以一种非常微妙的方式做到了这一点，让人们达到高剂量。
The brine question, just a tangent here for a second, that was actually one of the products that we had people use in the fermented food phase.
盐水问题，只是暂时切题，这实际上是我们让人们在发酵食品阶段使用的产品之一。
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
There's actually a product called Gut Shots, which is just the brine that they've marketed.
实际上有一种叫做 Gut Shots 的产品，就是他们销售的盐水。
We actually are now studying it in the lab.
实际上我们现在正在实验室里研究它。
I just, actually before this, came from a lab meeting where a GI fellow in my lab is actually putting Gut Shots, sterilized gut microbe or the fermentation microbes removed or present into mice and looking at changes in their mucosal immune system.
事实上，在此之前，我刚刚参加了一次实验室会议，我实验室的一位胃肠道研究员实际上正在将肠道注射、灭菌的肠道微生物或去除或存在的发酵微生物放入小鼠体内，观察它们的粘膜免疫系统的变化。
So we're studying this in detail now because it's a rich source of lactate and a bunch of other interesting metabolites.
所以我们现在正在详细研究它，因为它是乳酸和许多其他有趣的代谢物的丰富来源。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I love that my weird behavior is inadvertently being studied at Stanford Medicine.
我很高兴斯坦福大学医学院无意中对我的奇怪行为进行了研究。
I want to just mention something about the Gut Shots.
我想提一下有关 Gut Shots 的一些事情。
Those are sold as a drink.
这些都是作为饮料出售的。
Those also, just for certain listeners in different budgets, they can be very expensive if you really think about, some of them are exceedingly expensive.
另外，对于某些不同预算的听众来说，如果你认真考虑的话，它们可能会非常昂贵，其中一些非常昂贵。
But what I described before with making your own kombuchas, it's not quite brining, but the homemade sauerkraut, that protocol is out there, as I mentioned, in Tim's book "The 4-Hour Chef." And you get a lot of the brining from that, an almost endless amount.
但我之前描述的自制康普茶，并不是完全腌制，而是自制酸菜，正如我提到的，蒂姆的书“四小时厨师”中就存在该协议。你会从中得到很多盐水，几乎是无穷无尽的。
A cautionary note, I once went into the refrigerator and saw something similar to Gut Shot.
需要注意的是，我有一次走进冰箱，看到了类似于 Gut Shot 的东西。
It wasn't Gut Shot.
这不是肠道射击。
And I drank the whole 12-ounce bottle and realized that it was 24 servings.
我喝完了整瓶 12 盎司的饮料，发现这是 24 份。
And that's where I got my initial experience with what it is to not do a ramp-up phase.
这就是我最初的经验，即不进行启动阶段。
I do not recommend doing that.
我不建议这样做。
It's very potent, it seems, and you can consume even a half an ounce or an ounce.
它看起来非常有效，你甚至可以消耗半盎司或一盎司。
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
Yeah.
是的。
I mean very potent from the standpoint of fermentation, but also very salty.
我的意思是从发酵的角度来看非常有效，但也很咸。
So there's a lot of effects that can-
所以有很多效果可以-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Don't do what I do.
别做我做的事。
At least not at the outset.
至少一开始不是。
So that is an experienced warning.
所以这是一个经验丰富的警告。
So they did this, as I recall, there was a swap condition or there was a halt condition.
所以他们这样做了，我记得，有一个交换条件或有一个停止条件。
So you did controls, right?
所以你做了控制，对吗？
It wasn't just comparing groups.
这不仅仅是比较群体。
You had individuals who were initially in one group or the other move to a different group, correct?
你让最初属于一个组或另一个组的人转移到另一个组，对吗？
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
Well, so we-
好吧，所以我们——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or to stop and then return?
还是停下来然后返回？
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
Yeah, we actually just did a stop and followed them during a washout phase.
是的，我们实际上只是停下来并在冲刷阶段跟随他们。
And the ideal situation for dietary interventions like this are to do crossover studies as you're suggesting.
像这样的饮食干预的理想情况是按照您的建议进行交叉研究。
We've recently completed a ketogenic versus Mediterranean diet intervention order-
我们最近完成了生酮饮食与地中海饮食干预令 -
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
All those data published yet?
所有这些数据都公布了吗？
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
Not yet, but Christopher's been tweeting a lot of these data.
还没有，但克里斯托弗已经在推特上发布了大量此类数据。
And there's a paper in revision right now.
现在有一篇论文正在修改中。
So if you go to Christopher Gardner's Twitter feed, you'll be able to find him reporting some of the early results of this study.
因此，如果您访问克里斯托弗·加德纳的推特，您将能够发现他报告了这项研究的一些早期结果。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Can you give us a snippet?
你能给我们一个片段吗？
You don't have to tell us which one, but was there a superior condition of either Mediterranean versus ketogenic?
您不必告诉我们是哪一种，但是地中海饮食与生酮饮食相比是否有更优越的条件？
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
So the metabolic effects of these ...
所以这些的代谢作用......
It's a beautiful study.
这是一项美丽的研究。
I should let his group comment on that.
我应该让他的小组对此发表评论。
The microbiota data we actually are just generating now.
我们现在实际上刚刚生成微生物群数据。
So the study that his group has put together from, this is largely independent of the microbiota data.
因此，他的团队所做的研究在很大程度上独立于微生物群数据。
And now we're doing a more in-depth analysis.
现在我们正在进行更深入的分析。
And I'll have more to say about that in the future, but that-
将来我会对此有更多的说法，但是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We'll return to that.
我们将回到这一点。
Yeah.
是的。
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
But it's a super exciting study because it is one of these where people eat a certain way.
但这是一项超级令人兴奋的研究，因为它是人们以某种方式饮食的研究之一。
And what's really beautiful about this is we even got food delivered for part of the intervention.
真正美妙的是，我们甚至还为部分干预措施提供了食物。
So we had complete control over what they at least had available to eat.
所以我们可以完全控制他们至少可以吃什么。
And then the second phase, they make the food on their own, and then we crossover and do the same thing.
然后第二阶段，他们自己做食物，然后我们交叉做同样的事情。
And so that's really, if you have a good-enough budget, the right way to do a study like this.
因此，如果您有足够的预算，这确实是进行此类研究的正确方法。
For this, we didn't have the time or money to do a crossover, but we did do a washout phase where people, we didn't make them stop eating whatever if they were enjoying it, but we monitored, and there was some recidivism where there was a decrease in fiber or fermented food.
为此，我们没有时间或金钱进行交叉，但我们确实做了一个清洗阶段，在这个阶段，人们如果喜欢的话，我们不会让他们停止吃任何东西，但我们进行了监控，发现纤维或发酵食品减少的情况下出现了一些累犯。
And we could see, for instance, diversity start to plateau and reverse in many of these people.
例如，我们可以看到，其中许多人的多样性开始趋于稳定并出现逆转。
So there does appear to be a need for maintenance of the intervention to maintain the perceived health benefits that we were measuring.
因此，似乎确实需要维持干预措施，以维持我们所衡量的感知健康益处。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Great.
太棒了。
We will provide a link to the study in the caption.
我们将在标题中提供该研究的链接。
And thank you for that very clear and thorough description from one of the investigators involved in the study.
感谢参与该研究的一位研究人员提供的非常清晰、透彻的描述。
It's great to go direct to the source.
直接找到源头真是太好了。
Anecdotally, were there improvements in mood, in resistance to colds and infection during the course of the study.
有趣的是，在研究过程中，情绪、感冒和感染的抵抗力是否有所改善。
And this is kind of a prelude to where I'm headed next, which is there is a tremendous amount of interest in the so-called gut-brain axis, but also I want to make sure that we talk about how these microbes and the conditions they're establishing in the gut are creating positive or negative health effects.
这是我下一步的前奏，即人们对所谓的肠脑轴非常感兴趣，但我也想确保我们谈论这些微生物以及它们在肠道中建立的条件如何对健康产生积极或消极的影响。
I mean, basically, how signals get out of the gut.
我的意思是，基本上，信号是如何从肠道中发出的。
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
Totally, yeah.
完全是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I certainly notice that when I'm eating more fermented foods or there's probiotics in drinks I consume and so forth, that I feel quote-unquote, air quotes, completely subjective, I feel better.
我当然注意到，当我吃更多的发酵食品或我喝的饮料中含有益生菌等时，我感觉引用不引用，空气引用，完全主观，我感觉更好。
I wish there was an objective measure of feeling better, but I seem to think more clearly, sleep better, mood, et cetera.
我希望有一个客观的衡量标准来衡量感觉更好，但我似乎思考更清晰，睡眠更好，情绪等等。
And I know I'm not alone in that.
我知道我并不孤单。
And anytime I've taken harsh antibiotics, I feel worse.
每当我服用强效抗生素时，我都会感觉更糟。
But then again, I'm usually taking them because I'm feeling bad about something else.
但话又说回来，我通常服用它们是因为我对其他事情感觉不好。
I don't take them just because.
我接受它们不仅仅是因为。
So did people say they were feeling better in any way?
那么人们有没有说他们感觉好多了？
And if so, what did you observe?
如果是这样，你观察到了什么？
And again, we're highlighting these as anecdata.
我们再次强调这些作为轶事。
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
Yeah, totally.
是的，完全可以。
As part of this effort to look at how dietary interventions affect our health and well-being and so forth, and microbiome and immune system, we interact with a lot of people who have read our book or have become microbiome enthusiasts and have implemented a lot of these changes in their personal life.
作为研究饮食干预如何影响我们的健康和福祉等以及微生物组和免疫系统的努力的一部分，我们与许多读过我们的书或已成为微生物组爱好者并在个人生活中实施了许多这些改变的人进行了互动。
And I hear the same thing that you're saying, Andrew, that tons of people say they have more energy, they think more clearly, they sleep better, their family is nicer to each other.
我听到你说的同样的事情，安德鲁，很多人说他们有更多的精力，他们的思维更清晰，他们的睡眠更好，他们的家人彼此更好。
The number of crazy things, and it's really hard to uncouple.
疯狂的事情有很多，而且真的很难解开。
Is this because these people have taken charge now of what they're eating and just feel better in general for being in control of what they're doing?
这是因为这些人现在已经掌控了自己的饮食，并且总体上因为能够控制自己所做的事情而感觉更好？
Or is there this cascading set of effects that are actually impacting or emanating from the gut-brain axis.
或者是否存在实际上影响或源自肠脑轴的一系列级联效应。
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
And so we actually implemented a bunch of questionnaires and even a cognitive test to try to get at some of this, and I should say the list of this goes on and on.
因此，我们实际上实施了一系列调查问卷，甚至进行了认知测试，试图了解其中的一些内容，我应该说这样的清单还在继续。
There are people who claim that their complexion improves and that their allergies, and there's probably all sorts of ripple effects if you can affect your inflammation.
有些人声称他们的肤色得到了改善，他们的过敏症也得到了改善，如果你能影响你的炎症，可能会产生各种各样的连锁反应。
We know that you can affect your cognition.
我们知道您可以影响您的认知。
We know that you can affect your skin and inflammation that's occurring on your skin.
我们知道您会影响您的皮肤和皮肤上发生的炎症。
So I really think that there is a basis for a lot of those anecdotes.
所以我真的认为很多这样的轶事都是有根据的。
It may just be hard to see in a short study and in a small cohort of people over a short period of time.
在短期研究和短时间内的一小群人中可能很难看到这一点。
But we didn't really see significant things associated with cognition and moods and-
但我们并没有真正看到与认知和情绪相关的重要事物，而且——
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
...
...
and things associated with cognition and moods and all of the things that we were testing for, which, yeah, there could be a variety of explanations for that.
与认知和情绪相关的事物以及我们正在测试的所有事物，是的，对此可能有多种解释。
We also have a standardized stool measure that people use, and there was kind of less constipation, better bowel movements over the course of both of these interventions.
我们还有一种供人们使用的标准化粪便测量方法，在这两种干预措施的过程中，便秘有所减少，排便情况有所改善。
So it did seem like bowel habits improved, which a lot of times can lead to better moods, but we weren't able to measure that.
所以看起来排便习惯确实得到了改善，很多时候这可以带来更好的情绪，但我们无法衡量这一点。
PART 3 OF 4 ENDS Andrew Huberman:
第 3 部分（共 4 部分）结束 Andrew Huberman：
The classic psychoanalyst would have a field day with that.
经典的精神分析学家会对此大感兴趣。
What sorts of interesting things did you observe in the fiber group?
您在纤维组中观察到哪些有趣的事情？
Because it's clear that that group yielded some unexpected findings in both directions.
因为很明显，该小组在两个方向上都取得了一些意想不到的发现。
Things you expected to see, you didn't see as to the same amplitude as you did in the fermented-food group.
您期望看到的东西，您没有看到与发酵食品组中相同的幅度。
But I'm guessing you also saw some very interesting things in the fiber group.
但我猜您在纤维组中也看到了一些非常有趣的东西。
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
Totally, yeah.
完全是的。
So we started looking at the data in more detail when we didn't see the cohort-wide response.
因此，当我们没有看到整个群体的反应时，我们开始更详细地查看数据。
And one of the things we observed is that in measuring all these immune parameters, there appeared to be three different groups of immune responses that we were seeing.
我们观察到的一件事是，在测量所有这些免疫参数时，我们看到了三组不同的免疫反应。
One group that got overall less inflammatory, and then two other groups that kind of had a mixed result, partly more inflammatory, partly less inflammatory in all these markers that we were looking at.
一组总体炎症程度较低，而另外两组则有不同的结果，在我们观察的所有这些标记物中，部分炎症程度较高，部分炎症程度较低。
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
And when we started digging into what aspect of the biology of those people dictated or predicted which group they fell into, the really interesting part is the people with the highest diversity gut microbiomes to start this study, were the ones that were most likely to have the decreases in inflammation.
当我们开始深入研究这些人的生物学的哪些方面决定或预测他们属于哪个群体时，真正有趣的部分是开始这项研究的肠道微生物多样性最高的人，是最有可能减少炎症的人。
And so data seemed to be telling us that if you start off with a diverse microbiota, maybe one that's better equipped to degrade a wide variety of dietary fiber, you're more likely to respond positively to it.
因此，数据似乎告诉我们，如果你从多样化的微生物群开始，也许是一种能够更好地降解多种膳食纤维的微生物群，你就更有可能对其做出积极的反应。
If you have a very depleted gut microbiome, you're not as likely to be able to respond to it.
如果您的肠道微生物群非常匮乏，您就不太可能对其做出反应。
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
And thinking back to that experiment that we talked about before with the multi-generational loss of fiber-fermenting microbes in mice that were fed a Western diet, it may be that many of us in the industrialized world have a microbiome that's so depleted now that even if we consume a high-fiber diet, at least for a short period of time, we don't have the right microbes in our gut to degrade that fiber.
回想一下我们之前讨论过的实验，即喂食西方饮食的小鼠中纤维发酵微生物的多代丧失，可能是我们工业化世界中的许多人的微生物组现在已经严重耗尽，即使我们食用高纤维饮食，至少在短时间内，我们的肠道中也没有合适的微生物来降解纤维。
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
And this has actually been observed by other groups.
其他团体实际上也观察到了这一点。
A beautiful study out of University of Minnesota looking at immigrants coming to the United States, and within nine months, but certainly over the course of years, immigrants that come here lose a lot of the diversity in their gut microbiome, but a lot of the fiber-degrading capacity in their gut microbiome too.
明尼苏达大学的一项精彩研究针对来到美国的移民进行了一项精彩的研究，在九个月内，但肯定是在几年的时间里，来到这里的移民失去了肠道微生物组的大量多样性，但肠道微生物组中也失去了很多纤维降解能力。
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
So it could be that over time, this becomes a one-way street, and it's hard for us to recover the microbes that actually can degrade the fiber.
因此，随着时间的推移，这可能会变成一条单行道，我们很难回收实际上可以降解纤维的微生物。
And I think that this probably intersects with sanitation in our environment and the fact that we don't have access to new microbes that might help us degrade the fiber, that we actually have lost these microbes, and they're in some ways irrecoverable without deliberate reintroduction of fiber-degrading microbes.
我认为这可能与我们环境中的卫生设施以及我们无法获得可能帮助我们降解纤维的新微生物这一事实相交叉，我们实际上已经失去了这些微生物，并且如果不故意重新引入纤维降解微生物，它们在某种程度上是无法恢复的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I can recall from childhood there were kids that would eat dirt and snails and stuff that just sounds totally disgusting, but kids covered with mud and maybe not so much anymore.
我记得小时候有些孩子会吃泥土、蜗牛和听起来很恶心的东西，但孩子们浑身都是泥，也许不再那么喜欢了。
And certainly during the pandemic, there's been a lot more use of these hand sanitizers that prior to that, people seem pretty spooked about.
当然，在大流行期间，这些洗手液的使用量大大增加，而在此之前，人们似乎对此感到非常害怕。
But then obviously, they prioritized them.
但显然，他们优先考虑了这些。
Well, you have children.
嗯，你有孩子了。
When they were young, did you encourage them to interact with pets and dirt and-
当他们还小的时候，你有没有鼓励他们与宠物和泥土互动以及——
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
Absolutely, yeah.
绝对是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
stuff in the environment, provided that stuff wasn't immediately toxic?
环境中的物质，前提是这些物质不会立即有毒？
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
Exactly.
正是如此。
So this is really, it's a continual cost-benefit analysis, I think.
所以我认为这确实是一个持续的成本效益分析。
I will say that with the pandemic now, and certainly just with infectious diseases in general, it's really important to be aware of the possibility for compromising your health through the spread of germs.
我想说的是，随着现在的大流行，当然还有一般的传染病，意识到细菌传播损害您的健康的可能性非常重要。
And so that is just ...
所以这只是......
hand washing is important, and we have to be careful with the spread of germs.
洗手很重要，我们必须小心细菌的传播。
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
But I do think that the sanitization of our environment has gone overboard with the various things being impregnated with antibiotics, shopping carts and things like that, and toothbrushes.
但我确实认为我们的环境消毒已经过度了，各种东西都充满了抗生素，购物车之类的东西，还有牙刷。
And it's like antibiotics and things for killing microbes are everywhere.
就像抗生素和杀死微生物的东西无处不在。
And when our daughters were young and we were making these decisions, the calculations that we would make were really, one, how likely are they to encounter a disease-causing microbe?
当我们的女儿还小的时候，我们在做出这些决定时，我们所做的计算实际上是，一，她们遇到致病微生物的可能性有多大？
If we've been out on a hike or in our garden just kind of working in the dirt or whatever, maybe it's not as important to wash your hands before you have lunch, even if there's a little bit of dirt on them.
如果我们出去远足，或者在花园里干活，或者在泥土里干活，那么在吃午饭之前洗手可能就不那么重要了，即使手上有一点污垢。
If they've been in a public playground where maybe there's other kids with germs or maybe even chemicals like pesticides and herbicides that are being used, maybe it's more important then to wash your hands.
如果他们去过公共游乐场，那里可能还有其他带有细菌的孩子，甚至可能正在使用杀虫剂和除草剂等化学物质，也许洗手比洗手更重要。
Certainly if you've been in the grocery store or on the subway, probably a good idea to wash your hands.
当然，如果您去过杂货店或地铁，洗手可能是个好主意。
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
So I think you really need to think about the context of it.
所以我认为你真的需要考虑一下它的背景。
And exposure to microbes from the environment is likely an important part of educating our immune system and keeping the proper balance in our immune system, and it's just a matter of figuring out the right way to do that safely.
接触环境中的微生物可能是教育我们的免疫系统和保持免疫系统适当平衡的重要组成部分，而问题只是找到安全地做到这一点的正确方法。
And it may be that the fermented-food result that we saw is a way of tapping into those same pathways, kind of an environmental exposure to microbes that's safe.
我们看到的发酵食品的结果可能是利用这些相同途径的一种方式，一种安全的微生物环境暴露。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Interesting.
有趣。
I'd like to touch on how signals get from the gut to the rest of the body.
我想谈谈信号如何从肠道传递到身体的其他部位。
And we probably don't have time to go into all the systems that benefit from having a diverse microbiome or a healthy microbiome, but we've talked about the immune system.
我们可能没有时间讨论所有受益于多样化微生物组或健康微生物组的系统，但我们已经讨论了免疫系统。
There's active signaling and transport from the gut all along its length, as far as I know, into the bloodstream into other organs and tissues.
据我所知，肠道的整个长度上都有活跃的信号传导和运输，进入血液，进入其他器官和组织。
So for the immune system, it seems straightforward.
所以对于免疫系统来说，这似乎很简单。
You could reduce the amount or number of inflammatory cytokines, like IL-6 and so forth, maybe increase the anti-inflammatory cytokines like IL-10 and others.
您可以减少炎症细胞因子（如 IL-6 等）的数量或数量，也可以增加抗炎细胞因子（如 IL-10 等）。
But we know there's a gut-brain axis of neurons that literally talk in both directions between brain and gut.
但我们知道有一条肠-脑神经元轴，可以在大脑和肠道之间进行双向对话。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But let's say I'm eating my fermented foods, I'm doing all the right things, and my gut is diverse, and I have all the good goodies at all the right places.
但假设我正在吃发酵食品，我正在做所有正确的事情，而且我的肠道是多样化的，并且我在所有正确的地方都有所有好的东西。
How is it that the fact that those microbiota are thriving is conveyed to the rest of the body?
这些微生物群蓬勃发展的事实如何传递到身体的其他部位？
Because they're in there doing their thing, and I don't know that they have a mind, but they're probably not thinking of taking care of me, Andrew.
因为他们在那里做他们的事情，我不知道他们有没有想法，但他们可能没有考虑照顾我，安德鲁。
But I feel better, or I might get sick less often or combat any illness more quickly.
但我感觉好多了，或者我可能会更少生病或者更快地对抗疾病。
How is that actually happening?
这实际上是如何发生的？
Is it that the microbiota stay restricted to the gut, but the signaling molecules are all, in a downstream way, are making good or bad things happen?
是不是微生物群仍然局限于肠道，但信号分子都在下游，使好事或坏事发生？
Or is there some sort of direct recognition at the body level, or are there cells in the body that are responding to, "Ah, the gut microbiome is healthy and therefore, I can make more of the good stuff and less of the bad stuff," so to speak?
或者身体层面是否存在某种直接识别，或者体内是否有细胞做出反应，“啊，肠道微生物群是健康的，因此，我可以制造更多的好东西，更少的坏东西”，可以这么说？
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
Yeah, great.
是的，太棒了。
You're right, it's super complex.
你是对的，它非常复杂。
There's a huge array of ways that our body perceives both the microbes and the molecules that they produce in our gut.
我们的身体可以通过多种方式感知肠道中的微生物及其产生的分子。
And the molecules they produce are, of course, a product of what microbes are there and then what they receive as kind of metabolic inputs, what we're eating and what other microbes are present in the environment providing molecules to them.
当然，它们产生的分子是微生物的产物，然后它们作为代谢输入接收到什么，我们正在吃什么，以及环境中存在哪些其他微生物为它们提供分子。
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
So it's this complex matrix, but probably the simplest place to start is just the immune system.
所以这是一个复杂的矩阵，但最简单的起点可能就是免疫系统。
We have an immune system that ...
我们有一个免疫系统...
the vast majority of immune cells in our body are located in our gut, just because there's such a dense population of microbes there that have ...
我们体内的绝大多数免疫细胞都位于我们的肠道中，只是因为那里有如此密集的微生物群......
We consider them beneficial microbes, but they're only beneficial if they're in the right spot in the gut.
我们认为它们是有益的微生物，但只有当它们位于肠道的正确位置时，它们才有益。
As soon as they mislocalize, we know that they be can become opportunistic pathogens.
我们知道，一旦它们定位错误，它们就会成为机会性病原体。
And so the immune system really playing an important role to keep them in place is essential for this system not moving into a disease space.
因此，免疫系统真正发挥着重要作用，使它们保持在适当的位置，对于该系统不进入疾病空间至关重要。
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
The immune system has a variety of ways of monitoring what microbes are there.
免疫系统有多种方法来监测微生物的存在。
There are actually specialized structures in the gut known as Peyer's patches that actually take up microbes.
实际上，肠道中有一种特殊的结构，称为派尔氏集结，实际上可以吸收微生物。
They actually allow microbes to transit into this population of immune cells in a very controlled way, so that that set of immune cells becomes educated as to what microbes are just on the other side of the barrier.
它们实际上允许微生物以一种非常受控的方式转移到这组免疫细胞中，这样这组免疫细胞就可以了解屏障另一侧的微生物是什么。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wow.
哇。
It's kind of like a border patrol.
这有点像边境巡逻。
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
Exactly, yeah.
没错，是的。
So they bring them in, they fingerprint them, and then have this set of responses ready to go if needed.
因此，他们将它们带入，对它们进行指纹识别，然后在需要时准备好这组响应。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Amazing.
太棒了。
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
There are other cells known as dendritic cells, special types that actually send long arms, these processes out into the lumen of the gut and do the same thing: take up microbes, bring them back in and sample them.
还有其他被称为树突状细胞的细胞，这种特殊类型的细胞实际上会发出长臂，这些细胞会进入肠腔并做同样的事情：吸收微生物，将它们带回并取样。
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
In addition to these direct sampling mechanisms, the cells that line the gut have a huge array of receptors, specialized proteins, that perceive patterns, the molecular patterns that the microbes make.
除了这些直接采样机制之外，肠道内的细胞还有大量的受体和特殊的蛋白质，它们可以感知模式，即微生物产生的分子模式。
So things like endotoxin, lipopolysaccharide, just the cell wall of the bacteria, we have specialized receptors that recognize those.
所以像内毒素、脂多糖、细菌的细胞壁这样的东西，我们有专门的受体来识别它们。
If those signals become too profound, or if they're perceived in the wrong place, that can stimulate an inflammatory response.
如果这些信号变得太深刻，或者在错误的地方感知到它们，就会刺激炎症反应。
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
So there's all these ways of monitoring the membership and where it is and how close it is.
因此，有所有这些方法可以监控成员资格及其位置以及距离。
But then there's this whole other set of ways of perceiving metabolic activity in what's happening in the gut.
但还有另外一套感知肠道代谢活动的方法。
And you mentioned before, these cell types that express taste receptors in the gut and have ways of sampling dietary components.
您之前提到过，这些细胞类型在肠道中表达味觉受体，并具有对饮食成分进行采样的方法。
There are those same types of analogous cells in our gut that are perceiving metabolites produced by the microbiota, so that our bodies can perceive what sort of metabolic activity is going on.
我们的肠道中存在相同类型的类似细胞，它们感知微生物群产生的代谢物，因此我们的身体可以感知正在发生什么样的代谢活动。
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
And then in addition to that, there's this tremendously important enteric nervous system that's sending signals back to the brain, dictating things like motility.
除此之外，还有一个非常重要的肠神经系统，它将信号发送回大脑，决定诸如运动之类的事情。
"Do I get rid of what's in here?
“我要处理掉这里的东西吗？
Do I move it along quickly?
我是否快速移动它？
What actually is happening?
究竟发生了什么？
Do I need to interact with immune cells?" So there's this really complex array of interactions between the different cell types.
我需要与免疫细胞相互作用吗？”因此，不同细胞类型之间存在着非常复杂的相互作用。
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
And then a lot of the cells that are in the gut perceiving all of these signals, a lot of the immune cells, can actually get up and leave.
然后肠道中感知所有这些信号的许多细胞，许多免疫细胞，实际上可以站起来并离开。
They can get into the blood, cycle through, and then home to other regions of the mucosal surfaces, so that mucosal surfaces are educated broadly against what's passing through our guts.
它们可以进入血液，循环，然后回到粘膜表面的其他区域，这样粘膜表面就可以广泛地接受针对穿过我们肠道的物质的教育。
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
So there's a variety of ways of cells communicating.
因此，细胞之间的交流方式有很多种。
And then a lot of the molecules that the microbiota makes can actually make their way into the bloodstream directly.
然后微生物群产生的许多分子实际上可以直接进入血液。
And so the array of molecules is still being defined.
因此分子阵列仍在定义中。
We're trying to figure out what all these chemicals are.
我们正试图找出所有这些化学物质是什么。
We've mentioned the short chain fatty acids, but those are just the tip of the iceberg.
我们已经提到了短链脂肪酸，但这只是冰山一角。
There are really interesting compounds like indole derivatives and phenols, derived from amino acids, metabolized by gut microbes, taken up into the bloodstream, and then we further metabolize these.
有一些非常有趣的化合物，例如吲哚衍生物和酚类，它们源自氨基酸，由肠道微生物代谢，进入血液，然后我们进一步代谢它们。
They become kind of co-microbe host metabolites, and then they can go on and bind to different receptors throughout our body, anywhere our bloodstream has access to and start to trigger signaling cascades.
它们成为一种共微生物宿主代谢物，然后它们可以继续并与我们体内的不同受体结合，无论我们的血液可以到达哪里，并开始触发信号级联。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is it known whether or not any of those molecules are small enough to cross the blood-brain barrier?
是否知道这些分子是否小到足以穿过血脑屏障？
Because the hypothesis and the current thinking is that neurotransmitters manufactured in the gut and signaling along the gut-brain access, literally neurons talking back and forth electrically from brain to gut and gut to brain, is what regulates things like mood or at least in animal models.
因为假设和当前的想法是，神经递质在肠道中产生，并沿着肠脑通道发出信号，实际上是神经元在大脑与肠道、肠道与大脑之间来回进行电通信，这就是调节情绪等事物的原因，或者至少在动物模型中如此。
And there are some emerging human studies, improvement of symptoms in autism spectrum disorders, maybe even in ADHD.
还有一些新兴的人体研究，可以改善自闭症谱系障碍，甚至注意力缺陷多动症的症状。
What I'm basically saying here is there is some evidence emerging that improving the gut microbiome can improve outcomes in psychiatric and developmental disorders.
我在这里基本上想说的是，有一些证据表明，改善肠道微生物组可以改善精神和发育障碍的结果。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But what you're telling me is that the microbiota themselves are manufacturing chemicals that can make it into the bloodstream, and therefore I'm asking if those chemicals can move from the bloodstream into the brain directly.
但你告诉我的是，微生物群本身正在制造可以进入血液的化学物质，因此我想问这些化学物质是否可以从血液直接转移到大脑中。
It may not be a gut-brain axis via neurons.
它可能不是通过神经元的肠脑轴。
It actually could just be seepage of serotonin into the brain, or acetylcholine into the brain, for that matter.
实际上，这可能只是血清素渗入大脑，或者乙酰胆碱渗入大脑。
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
Totally, yeah.
完全是的。
And the biology of most of these molecules is not well understood, but certainly in cerebral spinal fluid that's been analyzed, you can perceive these microbial metabolites.
大多数这些分子的生物学特性还不是很清楚，但在经过分析的脑脊液中，你肯定可以感知到这些微生物代谢物。
So they are there.
所以他们就在那里。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's the answer, yeah.
这就是答案，是的。
Some of them are getting across the barrier.
他们中的一些人正在跨越障碍。
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
But so a really interesting thing is, I think, a lot of these molecules, if they're experienced at high enough doses, are toxic or have toxic properties.
但我认为，真正有趣的事情是，很多这些分子，如果在足够高的剂量下，是有毒的或具有毒性。
We know that a lot of these metabolites, when they make their way into the bloodstream, eventually are excreted through the kidneys in urine.
我们知道，许多代谢物当进入血液时，最终通过肾脏通过尿液排出体外。
So actually, we can monitor the metabolism that's going on in your gut by actually looking at the metabolites that are present in your urine because many of those originated in your gut from your gut microbes.
因此，实际上，我们可以通过实际观察尿液中存在的代谢物来监测肠道中正在进行的新陈代谢，因为其中许多代谢物源自肠道微生物。
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
But people with kidney disease, whose kidneys' filtering process is not functioning properly, actually build up high levels of many of these metabolites into the bloodstream.
但患有肾病的人，其肾脏的过滤过程无法正常运作，实际上会在血液中积聚大量此类代谢物。
And that can lead to more of these molecules making it across the blood-brain barrier.
这会导致更多的这些分子穿过血脑屏障。
And in fact, some of the transporters in the kidney that are responsible for shuttling these molecules out into urine are also found at the blood-brain barrier for shuttling the molecules back into the bloodstream if they do get across.
事实上，肾脏中负责将这些分子运送到尿液中的一些转运蛋白也存在于血脑屏障中，如果它们确实通过了，它们会将这些分子运送回血液中。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Incredible.
难以置信。
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
And we know that mental fog is one of the big symptoms of kidney disease, potentially because a lot of these metabolites accumulate in blood and then make their way across the blood-brain barrier into this essential nervous system.
我们知道，精神迷雾是肾脏疾病的主要症状之一，可能是因为许多代谢物在血液中积聚，然后穿过血脑屏障进入这一重要的神经系统。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Amazing.
太棒了。
I'm glad you mentioned mental fog.
我很高兴你提到精神迷雾。
A few years back there were some scientific reports, and as a consequence in the media, that excessive intake of pill-form probiotics could create mental fog.
几年前有一些科学报告，媒体报道称，过量摄入药丸形式的益生菌可能会造成精神迷雾。
I don't know if that ever took hold, and it raises a general question about pill-form probiotics.
我不知道这种情况是否曾发生过，它提出了一个关于药丸形式益生菌的普遍问题。
I took them for a few years, just thinking that would be good for my gut microbiome, and then I switched to the fermented-food thing, largely as a consequence of the work that you and Chris published, but what's the thought about probiotics for the typical person that's not recovering from a round of antibiotics or that has been prescribed them?
我服用了几年，只是认为这对我的肠道微生物群有好处，然后我转向发酵食品，这很大程度上是你和克里斯发表的研究成果的结果，但是对于那些没有从一轮抗生素中恢复或已服用抗生素的典型人来说，益生菌的想法是什么？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I've heard that the species of microbiota that they proliferate might not be the species that we want to proliferate.
我听说它们增殖的微生物群物种可能不是我们想要增殖的物种。
But I've also heard that maybe that doesn't matter.
但我也听说也许这并不重要。
So what's your general stance?
那么你的总体立场是什么？
They can be quite expensive also.
它们也可能相当昂贵。
I know I've been talking about expense a lot today, but I always want to take into account that people are showing up to the table with a variety of budgets.
我知道我今天已经谈论了很多费用，但我总是想考虑到人们带着各种预算出现在谈判桌上。
And probiotics are one of the more expensive supplements out there.
益生菌是目前最昂贵的补充剂之一。
You can quickly get into several hundreds of dollars per month if you're getting the quote, unquote best-quality ones.
如果您获得报价，并且取消报价，那么您每月可以快速获得数百美元。
And if they're actually causing brain fog, then I'm not sure I'd want to use them.
如果它们真的引起脑雾，那么我不确定我是否想使用它们。
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
No, completely.
不，完全是。
And there's a ton of snake oil out there.
那里有大量的万金油。
There's just ...
那里只是...
people know, I think, many of these companies are aware that they can prey off of people's fears and get a lot of money from them with absolutely no data to back up that their probiotic is doing anything.
我认为，人们知道，这些公司中的许多公司都意识到，他们可以利用人们的恐惧并从他们那里获得大量资金，而完全没有数据支持他们的益生菌正在发挥作用。
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
So I think the first thing to say is buyer beware.
所以我认为首先要说的是买家要小心。
Because it's a supplement market, it's largely unregulated, and that means that there are a lot of bad products out there, and a lot of products that even though they're not intended to be bad, just don't have great quality control.
因为这是一个补充剂市场，所以基本上不受监管，这意味着那里有很多劣质产品，而且很多产品虽然无意劣质，但没有很好的质量控制。
There have been several studies that have taken over-the-counter, just off-the-shelf probiotics, surveyed what's in there based on sequencing, and shown that what is in there does not match what's on the label.
有几项研究采用了非处方、现成的益生菌，根据测序调查了其中的成分，结果表明其中的成分与标签上的成分不符。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And that's true of many supplements, and unfortunately, supplement companies.
许多补充剂都是如此，不幸的是，补充剂公司也是如此。
This is something we get into on the podcast a lot.
这是我们在播客中经常讨论的内容。
There are reputable brands, and they go through a lot of work to get things right.
有一些信誉良好的品牌，他们经过大量的工作才能把事情做好。
And there are many that just, for whatever reason, it just doesn't match what's listed.
而且有很多，无论出于何种原因，它与列出的内容不符。
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
Exactly.
正是如此。
And so there are places that probiotic companies can send their product to have it independently validated.
因此，益生菌公司可以将其产品发送到某些地方进行独立验证。
So you want to look for that sort of validation on a product.
所以你想在产品上寻找这种验证。
There also are names that are just very well known, and their reputations are on the line, so they probably invest a little bit more in quality control than maybe some of the other lesser-known names.
还有一些非常知名的名字，他们的声誉岌岌可危，因此他们可能比其他一些不太知名的名字在质量控制方面投入更多。
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
But there's a huge range of data on probiotics.
但关于益生菌的数据非常广泛。
And I think the thing that we kind of recommend is try to find good products, and then experiment for yourself and see if you can find something that works for you.
我认为我们建议的做法是尝试找到好的产品，然后亲自尝试，看看是否能找到适合您的产品。
I know people who have experienced constipation and don't want to change their diet and have found a probiotic that helps them with that.
我认识一些经历过便秘但又不想改变饮食的人，他们找到了一种益生菌来帮助他们解决这个问题。
If you can find that right mix, great.
如果你能找到正确的组合，那就太好了。
That's wonderful.
太棒了。
I would say that the data right now is not overwhelmingly positive for what probiotics do to the gut microbiota.
我想说，目前的数据对于益生菌对肠道微生物群的作用并不是绝对积极的。
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
So there have been some nice studies looking at the impact of probiotics on recovery after antibiotic treatment.
因此，已经有一些很好的研究探讨了益生菌对抗生素治疗后恢复的影响。
And it appears to slow down the recovery of the mucosal microbiota.
它似乎会减慢粘膜微生物群的恢复。
And some other studies where the big signal isn't seen as you might hope with a probiotic that's supposed to treat a different disease.
还有其他一些研究，在益生菌治疗另一种疾病时，并没有像你所希望的那样看到大信号。
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
There have been meta-analyses that do suggest in certain instances recovery from antibiotics, even though it may cause your microbiota to recover more slowly, that it may actually prevent diarrheal disease, recovery from viral diarrheas.
有荟萃分析确实表明在某些情况下可以从抗生素中恢复，尽管它可能会导致您的微生物群恢复得更慢，但它实际上可以预防腹泻病，从病毒性腹泻中恢复。
Probiotics may help.
益生菌可能有帮助。
But because there's such a huge range of products and because each person is their own little keeper when it comes to the microbiome, it's really hard to know whether there are great products for a given indication.
但由于产品种类繁多，而且每个人在微生物组方面都是自己的小守护者，因此很难知道是否有针对特定适应症的优质产品。
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
The really good advice that I've heard is try to find a study that supports, and a really well-designed study, and this is very hard for people who aren't scientists to evaluate.
我听到的真正好的建议是尝试找到一项支持的研究，并且是一项设计良好的研究，这对于非科学家来说很难评估。
So if you're experiencing a medical problem or want to consult a doctor, that might be helpful.
因此，如果您遇到医疗问题或想咨询医生，这可能会有所帮助。
But finding a study where a specific probiotic has successfully done whatever it is you're looking for, and then sticking with that probiotic is really the best recipe as a place to start in this space, I think.
但我认为，找到一项研究，其中某种特定的益生菌成功地完成了您正在寻找的任何事情，然后坚持使用该益生菌确实是这个领域最好的起点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And what about prebiotics?
那么益生元呢？
Because there's a number of reasons why, I can imagine, that prebiotics would be beneficial.
因为我可以想象，益生元有益的原因有很多。
Which essentially, you're pushing the fiber system, which we've talked a lot about today.
从本质上讲，您正在推动光纤系统，我们今天已经讨论了很多。
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
Yeah, absolutely.
是的，绝对是。
The studies that have been done on prebiotics, it's really kind of a mixed bag of results.
关于益生元的研究结果确实是好坏参半。
There have been studies done with purified fibers where you actually see microbiota diversity plummet over the course of the study because you get a very specific bloom and a small number of bacteria that are good at using that one type of fiber.
已经有一些使用纯化纤维进行的研究，在研究过程中，您实际上会看到微生物群多样性急剧下降，因为您会得到非常特定的细菌和少量擅长使用该一种纤维的细菌。
And that's at the expense of all the other microbes that are in the gut.
这是以肠道内所有其他微生物为代价的。
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
So it's really hard to replicate with purified fiber, what you'd get, for instance, at a salad bar, in terms of the array of complex carbohydrates that you would be exposing your microbiota to.
因此，就您将接触微生物群的一系列复杂碳水化合物而言，用纯化纤维来复制确实很难，例如，您在沙拉吧得到的纤维。
And I think the kind of broad view of this in the field is that consuming a broad variety of plants, and all the diverse fiber that comes with that, is probably better in fostering diversity in your microbiota than purified fibers.
我认为该领域的广泛观点是，食用多种植物以及随之而来的所有不同纤维，可能比纯化纤维更能促进微生物群的多样性。
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
Now there are, again, a lot of people who benefit from purified fibers, either for GI motility or for other aspects of GI health problems that they've been experiencing.
现在，很多人再次受益于纯化纤维，无论是对于胃肠动力还是对于他们所经历的胃肠道健康问题的其他方面。
Again, I think it's the type of thing where you have to try to find the thing that's right for you.
再说一次，我认为这是一种你必须尝试找到适合你的事情。
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
But there also are studies that suggest that if you layer rapidly-fermentable fibers on top of a Western diet, you actually can result in weird metabolism happening in your liver because you have this incredibly rapid fermentation of fiber along with a lot of fat coming into the system.
但也有研究表明，如果在西方饮食中加入快速发酵的纤维，实际上会导致肝脏中发生奇怪的新陈代谢，因为纤维的发酵速度非常快，同时大量的脂肪进入系统。
At least that's the theory.
至少理论上是这样。
And in a mouse study that was published a few years ago, they actually see that a subset of the mice develop hepatocellular carcinoma when they're fed a high-dose prebiotic-
在几年前发表的一项小鼠研究中，他们实际上发现，当给小鼠喂食高剂量益生元时，一部分小鼠会患上肝细胞癌——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Liver cancer.
肝癌。
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
Liver cancer, on top of a Western diet.
肝癌，西方饮食之上。
So whether that's representative of human biology, we don't know.
所以我们不知道这是否代表人类生物学。
But purified fibers are definitely very different, both in terms of the diversity of structures, but also in terms of how rapidly they're fermented in the gut.
但纯化纤维肯定有很大不同，无论是在结构的多样性方面，还是在它们在肠道中发酵的速度方面。
Because if you are eating plants, the complex structures there really slow the microbes down in terms of fermentation, and you end up with a slow rate of fermentation over the length of your colon, as opposed to this big burst of fermentation that can happen if you eat something that is highly soluble and easily accessed by the microbes.
因为如果你吃植物，那里的复杂结构确实会减慢微生物的发酵速度，最终你的整个结肠的发酵速度会很慢，而如果你吃的是高度可溶且容易被微生物接触的东西，就会发生巨大的发酵。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Interesting.
有趣。
So I guess, is it fair to come back to this idea, trying to avoid processed foods, the highly palatable foods, sometimes super highly palatable foods, they're now called, that are packed with hidden sugars, emulsifiers.
所以我想，回到这个想法是否公平，试图避免加工食品，高度适口的食物，有时是超级高度适口的食物，它们现在被称为富含隐藏的糖和乳化剂。
So sounds like some fiber is good.
所以听起来一些纤维是好的。
And despite the outcome of the study, you identified that if you have the appropriate microbiota background, then one will respond even better to the fiber.
尽管研究结果如此，但您发现，如果您具有适当的微生物群背景，那么人们会对纤维产生更好的反应。
Maybe a longer ramp-up phase for those right folks.
对于那些合适的人来说，也许需要更长的起步阶段。
And then the fermented foods.
然后是发酵食品。
Because there's no reason why you can't do both.
因为没有理由不能两者兼得。
And as we've talked about before, a lot of fermented foods have fiber.
正如我们之前讨论过的，许多发酵食品都含有纤维。
So you can kill two birds with one stone.
所以一石二鸟。
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
Totally.
完全可以。
And it could be that the diversity increase that we saw in the high-fermented food group could be something that would aid the high-fiber group.
我们在高发酵食品组中看到的多样性增加可能会对高纤维组有所帮助。
And so now we're planning another study coming up where we're doing high-fiber, high-fermented food, and then fiber plus fermented food just to see if there's a synergistic effect there.
因此，现在我们计划进行另一项研究，首先是高纤维、高发酵食品，然后是纤维加发酵食品，看看是否有协同效应。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Great.
太棒了。
I want to enroll.
我想报名。
Seriously.
严重地。
Although, I guess I'm biased because I sort of know where you're trying to ...
不过，我想我有偏见，因为我知道你想做什么......
Well, is it blood draws that you use to measure the inflammatome?
那么，您是用抽血来测量炎症吗？
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
Exactly.
正是如此。
So we do blood draws, like two weeks.
所以我们抽血，大约两周。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Blood draws don't lie.
抽血不会说谎。
So it's good.
所以这很好。
So you've covered a tremendous amount of information, and I'm incredibly grateful.
所以你已经涵盖了大量的信息，我非常感激。
This was an area of biology that, despite having learned a lot about through papers and going to talks and reading articles in the media, has remained somewhat mysterious to me until today.
这是生物学的一个领域，尽管通过论文、演讲和阅读媒体文章了解了很多，但直到今天对我来说仍然有些神秘。
You've given us a very vivid picture of how this system works.
您向我们生动地描述了该系统的工作原理。
Where can people find out more about the work that you're doing?
人们可以在哪里找到有关您正在从事的工作的更多信息？
We can certainly provide links.
我们当然可以提供链接。
You and your wife, who co-run your lab, you have a book on this topic.
你和你的妻子共同经营你的实验室，你们有一本关于这个主题的书。
So could you tell us about the book?
那么您能给我们介绍一下这本书吗？
Where we can learn more about the Sonnenburg Lab and the work that you're doing?
我们可以在哪里了解有关 Sonnenburg 实验室和您正在进行的工作的更多信息？
Maybe people will even try and enroll in some of these studies.
也许人们甚至会尝试参加其中一些研究。
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
Yeah, fantastic.
是的，太棒了。
Yeah, it'd be great if we could get people to enroll.
是的，如果我们能让人们注册就太好了。
We're always looking for willing participants.
我们一直在寻找愿意的参与者。
So Erica, my wife, and I wrote a book called, "The Good Gut," and that really was a response to how we were changing our lives in response to being in the field, being very familiar with the research, seeing that a lot of our friends that weren't studying the gut microbiome but were very well informed, many of them scientists, were not doing the same things we were doing.
因此，我和我的妻子艾丽卡（Erica）写了一本名为《好肠道》的书，这确实是对我们如何改变生活的回应，因为我们身处该领域，非常熟悉这项研究，看到我们的许多朋友虽然没有研究肠道微生物组，但消息灵通，其中许多是科学家，但他们并没有做我们正在做的同样的事情。
And it was very clear that it was just the lack of information funneling out of the field to other people.
很明显，这只是缺乏从现场向其他人传达的信息。
And so we wanted to make that accessible to people who were not microbiome scientists.
因此，我们想让非微生物组科学家的人也能接触到这一点。
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
There's also a really interesting story.
还有一个非常有趣的故事。
We were at a conference site that just has scientific conferences all summerlong, week after week after week, different fields.
我们在一个会议场地，整个夏天都在举办不同领域的科学会议，一周又一周。
And so it's people that work there that are just dealing with these new groups coming in week after week.
因此，在那里工作的人们只是在与这些周复一周到来的新群体打交道。
And the week we were there for a microbiome conference, people that work in the dining commons came up to us and they said, "What group is this?
在我们参加微生物组会议的那一周，在公共餐厅工作的人们走过来对我们说：“这是什么群体？
This is weird." And we're like, "What's weird?" And they said, "We can't keep the salad bar stocked." And it was very clear that nobody was doing what we were doing until we'd go to a microbiome conference, and then everybody was doing the same stuff that we were doing.
这很奇怪。”我们会想，“有什么奇怪的吗？”他们说：“我们不能让沙拉吧备货充足。”很明显，在我们参加微生物组会议之前，没有人在做我们正在做的事情，然后每个人都在做我们正在做的同样的事情。
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
So anyway, we wrote this book to talk about our personal journey and kind of the science in the field and just to lay a foundation for people if they want to start thinking about these changes.
所以无论如何，我们写这本书是为了谈论我们的个人旅程和该领域的科学知识，并为人们想要开始思考这些变化奠定基础。
And then in terms of connecting with our research, certainly there's the Center for Human Microbiome Studies at Stanford, which is kind of our home base for doing a lot of these dietary interventions.
然后就与我们的研究联系而言，当然有斯坦福大学人类微生物组研究中心，它是我们进行许多饮食干预的基地。
We list the studies there, give more information on what we're doing, and then we have a lab website too that people can go to and read more about our research, and we're always looking for participants for our studies.
我们在那里列出了研究，提供了有关我们正在做的事情的更多信息，然后我们也有一个实验室网站，人们可以访问并阅读有关我们研究的更多信息，并且我们一直在寻找研究参与者。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Great.
太棒了。
Well, we will provide links to all of those sources, and I just want to say, thank you so much for sharing with us your knowledge, for the incredible work that you and Erica, your wife, and Chris do, and are continuing to do.
好吧，我们将提供所有这些来源的链接，我只想说，非常感谢您与我们分享您的知识，感谢您和埃里卡、您的妻子和克里斯所做的并将继续做的令人难以置信的工作。
I think this is an area that when I started my training, I heard a little bit about microbiota, and I always just thought those were people that work on infectious disease and all the bad stuff.
我认为当我开始训练时，我听说过一些关于微生物群的领域，我一直认为这些人是在研究传染病和所有坏东西。
So it's interesting and really important that people realize that we're carrying all this vital cargo, and we need to take care of the cargo so it can take care of us.
因此，有趣且非常重要的是，人们意识到我们正在运输所有这些重要的货物，我们需要照顾好这些货物，这样它才能照顾我们。
So thank you so much for your time and for the work you do, and I hope we can do it again.
非常感谢您的宝贵时间和所做的工作，我希望我们能再次这样做。
Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格：
Thanks, Andrew.
谢谢，安德鲁。
This was a great conversation.
这是一次很棒的谈话。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Terrific.
太棒了。
Thank you for joining me today for my discussion with Dr. Justin Sonnenburg, all about the gut microbiome and how to optimize your gut microbiome for health.
感谢您今天与 Justin Sonnenburg 博士一起讨论肠道微生物组以及如何优化肠道微生物组以促进健康。
Please check out the Sonnenburg Lab web page.
请查看 Sonnenburg 实验室网页。
That's Sonnenburg, spelled S-O-N-N-E-N-B-U-R-G-L-A-B, dot stanford dot edu.
这是 Sonnenburg，拼写为 S-O-N-N-E-N-B-U-R-G-L-A-B，点 stanford 点 edu。
That's sonnenburglab.stanford.edu.
那是 sonnenburglab.stanford.edu。
They often recruit for studies exploring how different aspects of nutrition impact the guide microbiome, much as we discussed during today's episode.
他们经常招募研究人员来探索营养的不同方面如何影响引导微生物组，就像我们在今天的节目中讨论的那样。
Please also check out the book that he and his wife, Dr. Erica Sonnenburg, wrote, called, "The Good Gut." It's readily available on all the usual sites, such as Amazon and so forth.
另请查看他和他的妻子艾丽卡·索南伯格博士 (Erica Sonnenburg) 合着的书，书名是《The Good Gut》。它可以在所有常用网站上轻松获得，例如亚马逊等。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
If you're learning from and/or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel.
如果您正在学习和/或喜欢此播客，请订阅我们的 YouTube 频道。
That's a terrific zero-cost way to support us.
这是支持我们的绝佳零成本方式。
In addition, please subscribe to the podcast on Apple and Spotify.
此外，请订阅 Apple 和 Spotify 上的播客。
And on Apple, you have the opportunity to leave us up to a five-star review.
在苹果上，您有机会给我们五星级的评价。
You can also leave a comment on Apple if you like.
如果您愿意，也可以对苹果发表评论。
The best place to leave us comments and feedback, however, is on our YouTube channel in the comment section.
不过，给我们留下评论和反馈的最佳地点是我们 YouTube 频道的评论部分。
There, you can suggest topics that you'd like us to cover in future episodes, guests that you'd like us to interview, and give us feedback about any of the material that you've heard or watched on this podcast.
在那里，您可以建议您希望我们在未来的剧集中介绍的主题、您希望我们采访的嘉宾，并向我们提供有关您在此播客中听到或观看的任何材料的反馈。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Please also check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning of today's episode.
另请查看今天节目开头提到的赞助商。
That's the best way to support this podcast.
这是支持这个播客的最佳方式。
If you're not already following Huberman Lab on Instagram and Twitter, please do so.
如果您还没有在 Instagram 和 Twitter 上关注 Huberman Lab，请立即关注。
There, I cover topics about science and science-based tools, some of which overlap with the content of this podcast, much of which is separate and unique from the content of this podcast.
在那里，我涵盖了有关科学和基于科学的工具的主题，其中一些与该播客的内容重叠，其中大部分与该播客的内容是独立且独特的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We also have a newsletter.
我们还有一份时事通讯。
It is called the Neural Network Newsletter.
它被称为神经网络通讯。
Once a month we put out short summaries of podcast episodes and key takeaways, actionable takeaways, in particular.
我们每月一次发布播客剧集和关键要点的简短摘要，特别是可操作的要点。
You can sign up for that by going to hubermanlab.com.
您可以访问 hubermanlab.com 进行注册。
You can look in the menu, look for Neural Network Newsletter.
您可以在菜单中查找“神经网络通讯”。
You can download previous newsletters to take a look at what those are like and about even before signing up.
您甚至可以在注册之前下载以前的时事通讯，看看它们的内容和内容。
If you subscribe, we don't share your information with anybody.
如果您订阅，我们不会与任何人分享您的信息。
The privacy policy is made very clear at hubermanlab.com.
hubermanlab.com 的隐私政策非常明确。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion about the gut microbiome.
再次感谢您参加今天关于肠道微生物组的讨论。
And last but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.
最后但并非最不重要的一点是，感谢您对科学的兴趣。
PART 4 OF 4 ENDS
第 4 部分（共 4 部分）结束