Dr. Jordan Peterson: How to Best Guide Your Life Decisions & Path
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.
欢迎来到休伯曼实验室播客，我们在这里讨论科学和基于科学的日常生活工具。
I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.
我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。
My guest today is Dr. Jordan Peterson.
今天我的客人是乔丹·彼得森博士。
Dr. Jordan Peterson is a psychologist and author and one of the most influential public intellectuals of our time.
乔丹·彼得森博士是一位心理学家和作家，也是我们这个时代最有影响力的公共知识分子之一。
Today, we discuss the human animal, what it means to be a human being at the level of psychology, at the level of neuroscience, and indeed, at the level of expression of different personality types within us.
今天，我们从心理学的层面、神经科学的层面，以及我们内心不同人格类型的表达层面来讨论人类这种动物，作为一个人意味着什么。
Most of us don't think about having different personalities.
我们大多数人都不会考虑拥有不同的性格。
However, as we discuss today, due to the activity of specific brain circuitries, including the hypothalamus, the prefrontal cortex, and others, we each and all can adopt different states of mind that powerfully influence our emotions, our thoughts, and our actions.
然而，正如我们今天所讨论的，由于特定的大脑回路（包括下丘脑、前额叶皮层等）的活动，我们每个人都可以采取不同的心理状态，从而强烈影响我们的情绪、思想和行为。
And in so doing, we are different people depending on those states of mind.
这样一来，我们就会根据不同的心态而成为不同的人。
Today's discussion is both an intellectual one and a practical one.
今天的讨论既是知识性的，也是实践性的。
You will learn where and how to place your thoughts.
您将学习在哪里以及如何放置您的想法。
You will learn the relationship between the call to adventure and responsibility.
您将了解冒险的召唤与责任之间的关系。
And as Dr. Peterson emphasizes in his new book, "We Who Wrestle with God," he emphasizes the use of story, in this case, biblical stories, to understand oneself and to best guide one's actions towards the most positive and generative outcomes.
正如彼得森博士在他的新书《与上帝摔跤的人》中所强调的那样，他强调使用故事（在本例中是圣经故事）来了解自己并最好地指导一个人的行动走向最积极和富有成效的结果。
We discuss the self, romantic relationships and commitments, the family, community, and culture.
我们讨论自我、浪漫关系和承诺、家庭、社区和文化。
We also discuss the media, politics, cancel culture, things like social media and pornography, shifting masculine and feminine roles, and the innate human drive to create action at a distance, both in space and in time.
我们还讨论了媒体、政治、取消文化、社交媒体和色情制品、男性和女性角色的转变，以及人类在空间和时间上创造远距离行动的内在动力。
Today's discussion is both intellectual and practical.
今天的讨论既是知识性的又是实践性的。
Dr. Peterson emphasizes how to use different sources of story, philosophy, psychology, and neuroscience to understand and best guide one's decision-making process.
彼得森博士强调如何利用故事、哲学、心理学和神经科学的不同来源来理解和最好地指导一个人的决策过程。
Indeed, he discusses the tight relationship between the call to adventure and responsibility as a trustable framework for moving forward in life towards one's best possible outcomes.
事实上，他讨论了冒险的召唤和责任之间的紧密关系，作为在生活中朝着最好的结果前进的可靠框架。
And I'm certain that by the end of today's discussion, you'll be thinking about your own neural circuits, that is the connections in your brain that drive emotions, thoughts, and behavior, as well as your psychology, your different states of mind, and you are going to have a number of different tools and frameworks with which to apply all that knowledge toward the best possible outcomes.
我确信，在今天的讨论结束时，您将思考自己的神经回路，即大脑中驱动情绪、思想和行为的连接，以及您的心理、不同的心理状态，并且您将拥有许多不同的工具和框架，可以使用所有这些知识来实现最佳结果。
Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.
在开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。
It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public.
然而，我的愿望和努力的一部分是向公众提供有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本消费者信息。
In keeping with that theme, I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast.
为了与这个主题保持一致，我要感谢今天播客的赞助商。
Our first sponsor is David.
我们的第一位赞助商是大卫。
David makes a protein bar unlike any other.
大卫制作的蛋白质棒与众不同。
It has 28 grams of protein, only 150 calories, and zero grams of sugar.
它含有 28 克蛋白质，仅 150 卡路里，零克糖。
That's right, 28 grams of protein and 75% of its calories come from protein.
没错，28克蛋白质，其75%的热量都来自于蛋白质。
These bars from David also taste amazing.
大卫的这些酒吧味道也很棒。
My favorite flavor is chocolate chip cookie dough.
我最喜欢的口味是巧克力饼干面团。
But then again, I also like the chocolate fudge flavored one, and I also like the cake flavored one.
但话又说回来，我也喜欢巧克力软糖口味的，我也喜欢蛋糕口味的。
Basically, I like all the flavors.
基本上所有的口味我都喜欢。
They're incredibly delicious.
它们非常美味。
For me personally, I strive to eat mostly whole foods.
就我个人而言，我努力主要吃天然食品。
However, when I'm in a rush or I'm away from home, or I'm just looking for a quick afternoon snack, I often find that I'm looking for a high-quality protein source.
然而，当我很赶时间或者我不在家，或者我只是想吃点下午茶时，我经常发现我正在寻找高质量的蛋白质来源。
With David, I'm able to get 28 grams of protein with the calories of a snack, which makes it very easy to hit my protein goals of one gram of protein per pound of body weight each day.
有了 David，我就能用一份零食的热量获取 28 克蛋白质，这使得我很容易达到每天每磅体重 1 克蛋白质的蛋白质目标。
And it allows me to do that without taking in excess calories.
它使我能够在不摄入过多卡路里的情况下做到这一点。
I typically eat a David bar in the early afternoon or even mid-afternoon if I want to bridge that gap between lunch and dinner.
如果我想弥补午餐和晚餐之间的差距，我通常会在下午早些时候甚至下午中旬吃大卫酒吧。
I like that it's a little bit sweet, so it tastes like a tasty snack, but it's also given me that 28 grams of very high-quality protein with just 150 calories.
我喜欢它有点甜，所以它尝起来像美味的零食，但它也为我提供了 28 克优质蛋白质，热量仅为 150 卡路里。
If you would like to try David, you can go to davidprotein.com/huberman.
如果您想尝试 David，可以访问 david Protein.com/huberman。
Again, the link is davidprotein.com/huberman.
同样，链接是 david Protein.com/huberman。
Today's episode is also brought to us by Levels.
今天的节目也是Levels给我们带来的。
Levels is a program that lets you see how different foods affect your health by giving you real-time feedback on your diet using a continuous glucose monitor.
Levels 是一个程序，通过使用连续血糖监测仪为您的饮食提供实时反馈，让您了解不同的食物如何影响您的健康。
One of the most important factors in both your short and long-term health is your body's ability to manage blood glucose or blood sugar.
对您的短期和长期健康最重要的因素之一是您的身体管理血糖的能力。
To maintain energy and focus throughout the day, you want to keep your blood glucose steady without big spikes or crashes.
为了全天保持精力充沛和注意力集中，您希望血糖保持稳定，不要出现大幅峰值或崩溃。
I first started using Levels about three years ago as a way to understand how different foods impacted my blood glucose levels, and it's proven incredibly informative for determining my food choices, when I eat specific foods, and how I time eating relative to things like my workouts, both weight training and cardiovascular training, things like running, and when to eat before I go to sleep to allow for the most stable blood sugar throughout the night.
大约三年前，我第一次开始使用“水平”作为了解不同食物如何影响我的血糖水平的一种方式，事实证明，它对于确定我的食物选择、何时吃特定食物以及我如何相对于锻炼、举重训练和心血管训练、跑步等饮食时间以及何时在睡觉前吃东西以使整个晚上的血糖保持最稳定而言，提供了令人难以置信的信息。
Indeed, using Levels has helped shape my entire schedule.
事实上，使用 Levels 帮助我制定了整个日程安排。
So if you're interested in learning more about Levels and trying a CGM yourself, you can go to levels.link/huberman.
因此，如果您有兴趣了解有关 Levels 的更多信息并亲自尝试 CGM，可以访问levels.link/huberman。
Levels has just launched a new CGM sensor that is smaller and has even better tracking than before.
Levels 刚刚推出了一款新的 CGM 传感器，它比以前更小，但跟踪能力更好。
Right now, they're also offering an additional two free months of membership.
现在，他们还提供额外两个月的免费会员资格。
Again, that's levels.link, spelled L-I-N-K, /huberman to try the new sensor and two free months of membership.
同样，这是levels.link，拼写为L-I-N-K，/huberman，用于尝试新传感器和两个月的免费会员资格。
And now for my discussion with Dr. Jordan Peterson.
现在我与乔丹·彼得森博士进行讨论。
Dr. Jordan Peterson, welcome.
乔丹·彼得森博士，欢迎光临。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Thank you, sir.
谢谢您，先生。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Delighted to have you here and want to talk about elements within your new book.
很高兴您来到这里，并想谈谈您的新书中的元素。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Also, some elements within your previous books.
另外，还有您以前书中的一些内容。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And within that mind of yours generally.
一般来说，在你的头脑中。
As a framework for that, I'm wondering if you would tolerate or permit a little bit of a discussion about sort of brain and psychology, just to lay the groundwork for where we might prod some of the themes that you bring up related to the book.
作为一个框架，我想知道你是否会容忍或允许对大脑和心理学进行一些讨论，只是为了我们可能提出的与本书相关的一些主题奠定基础。
So I view the brain as obviously a bunch of cells and parts, et cetera, but I distill it down to some sort of basic features.
因此，我将大脑显然视为一堆细胞和部分等等，但我将其提炼为某种基本特征。
First of all, we have an autonomic physiology, I think we'd both agree on that, that regulates our sleepiness and wakefulness, our breathing, our heart rate, stuff that runs in the background.
首先，我们有自主生理学，我想我们都同意这一点，它调节我们的睡意和觉醒，我们的呼吸，我们的心率，以及在后台运行的东西。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then we have a lot of circuitry devoted to what I would call impulses, things that we desire, we want to move toward, appetitive behaviors, and we also have some impulses to avoid things that are putrid, painful, et cetera.
然后，我们有很多电路致力于我所说的冲动，我们渴望的东西，我们想要走向的事物，食欲行为，我们也有一些避免腐烂的，痛苦的东西等的冲动。
That's all in there like it is in other animals.
这一切都在那里，就像其他动物一样。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah, we should talk about the idea of impulse in relationship to that characterization.
是的，我们应该讨论与该特征相关的冲动概念。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Because there's an important point to be made on the...
因为有一个重要的观点需要强调...
You pay a price for characterizing that as impulse and I'd like to explore that with you because it's crucial.
你因为将其描述为冲动而付出了代价，我想与你一起探讨这一点，因为它至关重要。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Great.
太棒了。
We'll circle back to impulse.
我们将回到冲动。
I'd like to do that.
我想这样做。
And then we have a lot of circuitry, people will hear about it as executive function-
然后我们有很多电路，人们会听说它是执行功能-
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Mm
毫米
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
prefrontal circuitry, which does many things, but I like to think of as a circuit that can say, and here I'm borrowing from a previous guest who's a neurosurgeon, it can say, "Shh," or exert what's called top-down suppression on these, what I'm calling impulses.
前额叶电路，它可以做很多事情，但我喜欢把它想象成一个可以说的电路，在这里我借用了一位神经外科医生的观点，它可以说，“嘘”，或者对这些施加所谓的自上而下的抑制，我称之为冲动。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It can-
它可以——
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
We should talk about that, too-
我们也应该谈谈这个——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay
好的
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
...
...
the suppression idea and the inhibition idea in general.
抑制思想和一般抑制思想。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Great.
太棒了。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Because I think there's a parallel problem there to the notion of impulse that's very much worth delving into.
因为我认为冲动概念还存在一个非常值得深入研究的并行问题。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Great.
太棒了。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So circuitry that's devoted to our ability to self-inhibit the desire to reach for something or to avoid something.
因此，这种电路致力于我们自我抑制伸手去拿某物或避免某物的欲望的能力。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We can push ourselves into things that would otherwise be aversive.
我们可以强迫自己去做一些原本令人厌恶的事情。
We can avoid doing things that would otherwise drive us to, quote-unquote, "Just do it anyway."
我们可以避免做那些会让我们“无论如何都要做”的事情。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then we have what I think of as our default settings, kind of how we're operating in the world with respect to food, other people, ourselves, our thoughts, if we don't intervene with ourselves.
然后我们就有了我认为的默认设置，如果我们不干预自己的话，我们在世界上如何对待食物、其他人、我们自己、我们的思想。
And these default settings are, of course, established by both nature, a genetic program that wires up circuitry, but also nurture, because of the immense neuroplasticity that occurs in the first 25 years plus of life, but especially those first years of life.
当然，这些默认设置既是由自然建立的，是连接电路的遗传程序，也是后天培养的，因为在生命的前 25 年以上，尤其是生命的最初几年，存在着巨大的神经可塑性。
And then, of course, we have neuroplasticity, this incredible gift that humans have more of than any other species as far as we know, which is we can decide to make changes.
当然，我们还有神经可塑性，据我们所知，人类比任何其他物种都拥有这种令人难以置信的天赋，那就是我们可以决定做出改变。
Now, the reason I lay out this framework as opposed to starting with a question is because there are so many amazing questions that you ask in this book.
现在，我之所以提出这个框架而不是从一个问题开始，是因为你在这本书中提出了很多令人惊奇的问题。
We Who Wrestle With God, trying to wrap our arms and minds around this huge set of questions, and it occurred to me to step back from all of that and ask, is part of the reason that we have a concept of God, that there are multiple religions, is that the consequence of some humans at some point realizing, or perhaps God himself realizing, that what we are equipped with as humans, which we just described, is insufficient to allow us to evolve as a species and be the best version of ourselves?
我们这些与上帝摔跤的人，试图用我们的手臂和思想来解决这一系列巨大的问题，我突然想到从这一切中退一步问，我们有上帝概念的部分原因，有多种宗教，是一些人类在某个时刻意识到，或者也许是上帝自己意识到，我们作为人类所具备的，我们刚才所描述的，不足以让我们作为一个物种进化并成为我们自己最好的版本？
I think this, for me, really is like the central question of at least my life, which is, to what extent do I need to intervene with my default settings, rewire them, engage that prefrontal cortex and push down on some appetitive or aversive behaviors, and to what extent can we do that?
我认为，对我来说，这确实是至少是我生活中的核心问题，即，我需要在多大程度上干预我的默认设置，重新连接它们，调动前额皮质并抑制一些食欲或厌恶行为，以及我们能在多大程度上做到这一点？
Maybe-
也许-
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
And to what end?
目的是什么？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And to what end?
目的是什么？
And maybe we need a rule book.
也许我们需要一本规则手册。
I am starting to believe, and I'm now 49 years old-
我开始相信，我现在已经 49 岁了——
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Mm
毫米
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that we need a rule book, that the neural circuitry that's encased within our skulls is not sufficient to allow us to navigate through life to our best outcome.
我们需要一本规则书，我们头骨内的神经回路不足以让我们在一生中导航到最好的结果。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Well, we kind of know that we need a rule book.
好吧，我们知道我们需要一本规则手册。
You admitted that in some ways implicitly when you discussed the fact that we have a 25-year socialization window.
当您讨论我们有 25 年的社会化窗口这一事实时，您在某种程度上含蓄地承认了这一点。
And what that means is that we have to interact with other people and our traditions in order to set us right, and that's so complex it takes 25 years.
这意味着我们必须与其他人和我们的传统互动才能纠正我们的错误，而这非常复杂，需要 25 年的时间。
And so we're learning something from that, and that's indication that our, let's say, default biological settings are insufficient to guide us into the future.
因此，我们正在从中学到一些东西，这表明我们的默认生物设置不足以引导我们走向未来。
Right?
正确的？
And so then the question is, well, what is it that you're learning as a consequence of that socialization process?
那么问题是，作为社会化过程的结果，你学到了什么？
And you can think about it, and people have thought about it, as a series of complex inhibitions of lower order motivational states, impulses.
你可以把它想象成，人们已经把它想象成一系列对低阶动机状态、冲动的复杂抑制。
But I'm not very happy with the inhibition model because inhibition is unsophisticated socialization.
但我对抑制模型不太满意，因为抑制是一种简单的社会化。
Integration is sophisticated socialization.
整合是复杂的社会化。
So here's a way of...
所以这里有一个方法...
I really learned this, I think, from contrasting Freud with Piaget, because Freud's model, super ego, is really an inhibition model, and Freud was a neurologist.
我认为，通过对比弗洛伊德和皮亚杰，我确实学到了这一点，因为弗洛伊德的模型，超我，实际上是一个抑制模型，而弗洛伊德是一位神经学家。
Piaget's model is very different.
伯爵的模型非常不同。
He thought of the properly socialized person as someone who had integrated their lower order, we'll call them impulses for now, into a sustainable voluntary structure that regulated them and gave them all their proper place.
他认为，适当社会化的人已经将他们的低层秩序（我们现在称之为冲动）整合到一个可持续的自愿结构中，该结构对他们进行监管并给予他们适当的位置。
That's very different than an inhibitory model.
这与抑制模型非常不同。
So for example, I'll give you an example from my own life.
例如，我会给你举一个我自己生活中的例子。
My son was quite a willful young child-
我儿子真是个任性的小孩子——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wonder where he got it from
好奇他从哪里得到的
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
...
...
when he was two.
当他两岁时。
Yeah.
是的。
Well, fair enough.
好吧，很公平。
And my father was a formidable character, and so my son liked to do what he liked to do.
而且我的父亲是一个令人敬畏的人物，所以我的儿子喜欢做他喜欢做的事情。
And it took quite a bit of tussling with him to help him, I wouldn't say inhibit that or regulate it, to integrate it.
我们与他进行了相当多的斗争才帮助他，我不会说抑制它或调节它，以整合它。
And one of the consequences of that was he became a very good athlete.
其后果之一就是他成为了一名非常优秀的运动员。
And so why is that relevant?
那么为什么这很重要呢？
Well, because it wasn't like he stopped being assertive or even aggressive.
嗯，因为他并没有停止自信，甚至不再咄咄逼人。
It's that he learned how to put that aggression in its proper place in relationship to a goal that was much more sophisticated than merely getting his own way moment to moment.
而是他学会了如何将这种侵略性放在与目标相关的适当位置，而这个目标比仅仅随心所欲要复杂得多。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Okay.
好的。
So integration's a better...
所以整合是一个更好的...
A very sophisticated athlete, a team athlete in particular, isn't not aggressive, and they're not inhibiting their aggression on the playing field.
一个非常老练的运动员，尤其是团队运动员，并不是没有攻击性，而且他们在赛场上也不会抑制攻击性。
They may now and then, when they're provoked, let's say, but all things considered, what they've done is subordinate their aggression to a higher order goal that enables them to be more successful, but also to be successful in a maximally social and sustainable way.
他们可能会时不时地，当他们被激怒时，比方说，但考虑到所有因素，他们所做的是将他们的攻击性服从于更高层次的目标，使他们能够更加成功，而且以最大限度的社会和可持续的方式取得成功。
And Piaget's point, and he's absolutely right about this, is that that's much better conceptualized as integration.
皮亚杰的观点是，将其概念化为整合更好，他对此绝对正确。
And then with regard to impulse, because I said I would return to that, I spent a lot of time walking through the behavioral literature.
然后关于冲动，因为我说过我会回到那个，所以我花了很多时间浏览行为文献。
And a lot of that was derived from animal experiments, and it was predicated on the idea that if you could explain something on the basis of a deterministic reflex, you should.
其中很多都来自动物实验，它的基础是这样的想法：如果你能根据确定性反射来解释某件事，你就应该这样做。
And there's something to be said for that hypothesis.
对于这个假设，有一些话要说。
Don't make your theory any more complex than it needs to be.
不要让你的理论变得过于复杂。
How far can you get with a theory of chained reflexes, a deterministic theory?
链式反射理论、决定论能走多远？
The behaviorists got a long way.
行为主义者已经走了很长的路。
They couldn't get to the highest strata of human endeavor with a chained reflex theory, but there was a lot of things they did that were very good.
他们无法通过连锁反射理论达到人类努力的最高层次，但他们做了很多非常好的事情。
But one of the things they made a big mistake about was to conceptualize motivational states, let's say, as impulses or drives.
但他们犯的一个大错误是将动机状态概念化为冲动或驱动力。
That's not sufficient because it fails to take into account the effect of those states on perception.
这还不够，因为它没有考虑到这些状态对感知的影响。
So it's much better to think of a motivated state, this is what helped me integrate behavioral theory with psychoanalytic theory, especially the psychoanalytic theory of religious endeavor.
因此，最好考虑一种动机状态，这帮助我将行为理论与精神分析理论结合起来，尤其是宗教努力的精神分析理论。
It's much better to think of those lower order motivational states as personalities.
最好将那些较低阶的动机状态视为人格。
They're subpersonalities.
他们是次人格。
They have their perceptions, they have their objects of perception, they have their cognitive rationalizations.
他们有他们的感知，他们有他们的感知对象，他们有他们的认知合理化。
You certainly see that in addiction, let's say.
比方说，你肯定会在成瘾中看到这一点。
They have their emotions.
他们有他们的情绪。
They are small personalities.
他们都是小人物。
Uni-dimensional, very narrow-minded personalities, but they're personalities, they're not impulses.
单一维度、非常狭隘的个性，但他们是个性，他们不是冲动。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So are they personalities within what most people would think of as our larger personality?
那么，他们的性格是否属于大多数人所认为的我们更大的性格呢？
What I'm hearing-
我听到的是——
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
is that, let's say somebody's an addict, okay?
就是说，某人是个瘾君子，好吗？
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
It depends on how integrated you are, because you could be nothing but a succession of dominion of subpersonalities.
这取决于你的整合程度，因为你可能只是一系列次人格的统治。
That's what a two-year-old is.
两岁的孩子就是这样。
And so you have to build an integrating personality on top of those subpersonalities, but not in a manner that inhibits them.
因此，你必须在这些次人格之上建立一个完整的人格，但不能以抑制它们的方式。
That means your socialization is unsophisticated.
这意味着你的社交不成熟。
Even Freud knew this because even though he had basically an inhibitory model of, say, super ego regulation-
甚至弗洛伊德也知道这一点，因为尽管他基本上有一个抑制模型，比如说超我调节——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
...
...
he believed that a healthy personality would have the impulse of aggression and the impulse of sexuality, to take two major lower order motivational states into account, would have them integrated into the functioning ego.
他相信，健康的人格会有攻击性的冲动和性欲的冲动，考虑到两种主要的低阶动机状态，将使它们融入到功能性的自我中。
The issue is integration.
问题是整合。
And so what you're doing when you're social...
那么当你社交时你在做什么......
When my son, for example, would become willful in a manner that I regarded as counterproductive for him and the household, and the rule would be, "You can't act that way, because if you act that way, people aren't going to approve of you, and that's a bad plan.
例如，当我的儿子变得任性时，我认为这对他和家庭都会适得其反，规则就是：“你不能那样做，因为如果你那样做，人们就不会批准你，这是一个糟糕的计划。
So you have to control that because it's not going to work out well for you if you don't." Okay, so I use time out.
所以你必须控制它，因为如果你不这样做，它对你来说不会有好的结果。”好吧，所以我利用了时间。
Now, time out is an effective disciplinary strategy for social creatures because we don't like isolation.
现在，对于社会生物来说，暂停是一种有效的纪律策略，因为我们不喜欢孤立。
And so time out basically takes a child, puts the child in isolation.
所以，超时基本上会带走孩子，让孩子陷入孤立。
That produces a pain-like response because social isolation produces pain.
这会产生类似痛苦的反应，因为社会孤立会产生痛苦。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's pure inhibition, right?
这是纯粹的抑制，对吗？
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Well, that's the question, you see.
嗯，这就是问题所在，你看。
That's the question.
这就是问题所在。
He had to inhibit his immediate desire, say, to run around because he was going to sit on the steps.
他必须抑制自己的即时欲望，比如说，到处乱跑，因为他要坐在台阶上。
But see, I put a rule in place there, and the rule was, "As soon as you get yourself under control, you can leave the stairs." Okay, so now the question is, what does under control mean?
但是看，我在那里制定了一条规则，规则是：“一旦你控制住自己，你就可以离开楼梯。”好吧，现在的问题是，“受控”是什么意思？
One interpretation is inhibition.
一种解释是抑制。
Another interpretation is no, no. He's developing a superordinate personality, probably cortically, that has enough dominion so that those underlying motivational states can now be integrated and placed properly into a hierarchy.
另一种解释是不，不。他正在发展一种高级人格，可能是在皮质上，这种人格具有足够的统治力，以便那些潜在的动机状态现在可以被整合并正确地放入一个层次结构中。
And when I'm insisting that he regulate his behavior, and I allow him to move off the step when he is now able to be a social creature again instead of falling prey to his whim, I'm reinforcing the cortical integration of those underlying motivational states.
当我坚持要求他规范自己的行为，并允许他在他现在能够再次成为社会生物而不是成为他突发奇想的牺牲品时离开台阶时，我正在加强那些潜在动机状态的皮质整合。
Now, you might think the human organism comes into the world with a warring battleground of primordial motivational states.
现在，你可能认为人类有机体来到这个世界时，就面临着原始动机状态的交战战场。
That's a perfectly reasonable view.
这是一个完全合理的观点。
We know a lot of that is mediated by the hypothalamus, for example.
例如，我们知道其中很多是由下丘脑介导的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
The amygdala and these lower order-
杏仁核和这些低阶-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
...
...
biologically, pre-programmed, to some degree, pre-programmed systems.
从生物学角度来说，预编程的系统在某种程度上是预编程的系统。
Now, the specific manner in which those systems should find their expression and the specific way that they're going to be hierarchically integrated is going to depend to a tremendous degree on the particulars of the society at that moment, which is why you need that 18-year framework to hone the manner in which those systems make themselves manifest.
现在，这些系统应该以何种具体方式表达，以及它们将如何进行层级整合，在很大程度上取决于当时社会的具体情况，这就是为什么你需要那个18年的框架来磨练这些系统表现出来的方式。
But I think the best way to conceptualize that is that it's the hierarchical integration of the motivational states within an overarching superordinate personality, and that personality is not bound to the moment.
但我认为最好的概念化方式是，它是总体上位人格内动机状态的层次整合，并且该人格不受当下的束缚。
It takes the medium and long-term into account.
它考虑的是中长期。
And it's not self-serving, like a two-year-old would be, because you have to take other people into account if you're going to be successful.
而且它不像两岁的孩子那样自私，因为如果你想成功，你就必须考虑其他人。
And this is where the cortex comes in, as far as I'm concerned.
就我而言，这就是皮质发挥作用的地方。
This is what it's doing.
这就是它正在做的事情。
It's integrating the lower order, temporally bound motivational states-
它正在整合低阶的、受时间限制的动机状态——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
...
...
that are specifically self-serving to a much broader vision of the world that takes the future into account and other people.
这对于考虑未来和其他人的更广阔的世界视野来说是特别自私的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
And that's hard.
这很难。
It's very hard.
这很难。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
I love this, and I'll tell you why.
我喜欢这个，我会告诉你为什么。
Because the way that I think of the prefrontal cortex is that its main job is context-dependent strategy setting.
因为我对前额叶皮层的看法是，它的主要工作是依赖于情境的策略设定。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Right.
对。
Context-dependent.
取决于上下文。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Context-dependent.
取决于上下文。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Right.
对。
That's a crucial issue.
这是一个至关重要的问题。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
And you mentioned hypothalamus.
你提到了下丘脑。
It's basically the size of two marbles or so sitting above the roof of our mouth.
它基本上有两颗弹珠那么大，位于我们的上颚上方。
Tiny little brain area.
很小的大脑区域。
It's mostly switches in there.
里面主要是开关。
What do I mean by that?
我这么说是什么意思？
Anytime a neurosurgeon has stimulated neurons in a little sub-area of the hypothalamus, you get either rage or sexual appetite or mating with inanimate objects.
每当神经外科医生刺激下丘脑某个小区域的神经元时，你要么会愤怒，要么会产生性欲，或者与无生命的物体交配。
This was done in both non-human primates and in humans.
这是在非人类灵长类动物和人类身上进行的。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Uncontrollable thirst.
无法控制的口渴。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Uncontrollable thirst, hunger, total suppression of hunger.
无法控制的口渴、饥饿，彻底抑制饥饿。
All the basic drives are operating there like switches.
所有基本驱动器都像开关一样在那里运行。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Exploration.
探索。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And prefrontal cortex has direct access to it, to the hypothalamus, and prefrontal cortex is context-dependent learning.
前额叶皮层可以直接访问它，到达下丘脑，并且前额叶皮层是上下文相关的学习。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Context-dependent decision-making.
依赖于上下文的决策。
And I love that you brought in this notion of changing an impulse, in the example that you gave, in your son's impulse to be aggressive or wild in some way that was inappropriate for the home environment at that moment.
我喜欢你引入了改变冲动的概念，在你举的例子中，在你儿子以某种不适合当时家庭环境的方式表现出攻击性或狂野的冲动中。
And two things that you said really resonate.
你说的两件事确实引起了共鸣。
The prefrontal cortex, his prefrontal cortex, had to learn that whatever he was feeling for himself, his own desires, needed to be placed in the context of other people's wishes, desires, and needs as well.
前额叶皮层，他的前额叶皮层，必须知道，无论他对自己有什么感受，他自己的欲望，也需要放在其他人的愿望、欲望和需求的背景下。
So there's an ex-
所以有一个前任
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Even for him to thrive, right?
甚至为了他的成长，对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
It's not merely a sacrifice of his own desire for the sake of others.
这不仅仅是为了他人而牺牲自己的愿望。
It's like, "No, no. Look, kid, we know this.
就像，“不，不。听着，孩子，我们知道这一点。
If you have the same orientation towards other people at four that you did when you were two, especially if you're tilted a little in the aggressive direction, you will not make friends, and you will be isolated and alienated for the rest of your life." So that two-year-old impulsiveness, that has its place.
如果你四岁时对其他人的态度和两岁时一样，特别是如果你有点攻击性的倾向，你就不会交到朋友，你的余生都会被孤立和疏远。”所以，两岁的冲动，有它的用处。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Two, it starts to modify radically at three, and it better be fixed by four.
第二，它从三开始发生根本性的改变，最好在四时修复。
And the reason for that is that you have to integrate yourself into the social world, which means, in the case of children, it means you want to have friends.
原因是你必须融入社交世界，这意味着，对于孩子来说，这意味着你想要有朋友。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
And so the reason you're disciplining your child isn't to teach them that what they're doing is bad, in that simple sense that you might interpret punishment.
因此，你管教孩子的原因并不是要告诉他们他们所做的事情是不好的，就像你可能理解的惩罚那样简单。
It's like, no, you need to be more sophisticated.
就像，不，你需要变得更加成熟。
Well, why?
嗯，为什么？
Well, you have to be able to take turns.
嗯，你必须能够轮流。
Well, why?
嗯，为什么？
Well, because no one will like you otherwise.
好吧，因为否则没有人会喜欢你。
Well, what's the problem with that?
嗯，那有什么问题吗？
Well, first of all, we're hyper-social.
嗯，首先，我们非常社交。
You can punish psychopaths by putting them in isolation.
你可以通过隔离精神病患者来惩罚他们。
That's how social human beings are.
社会人就是这样。
You take the most antisocial human beings there are, and you can punish them by making them be alone, right?
你带走了最反社会的人，你可以通过让他们孤独来惩罚他们，对吧？
So that's how social we are.
这就是我们的社交方式。
So you're modeling for your child a strategy of even satisfaction for his own basic drives that takes context in the most sophisticated possible way into account, right?
因此，您正在为您的孩子制定一种策略，使他能够满足他自己的基本驱动力，并以最复杂的方式考虑背景，对吗？
And that is, see, as soon as you understand that that's the fostering of a meta personality in the child, which would really be the personality of that child, the integrated personality, you start to understand how that might be related to religious thinking, because religious thinking is the attempt to formulate something approximating an ideal personality, right?
也就是说，你看，一旦你明白这是在孩子身上培养元人格，这实际上是那个孩子的人格，完整的人格，你就开始理解这可能与宗教思维有什么关系，因为宗教思维是试图制定一些接近理想人格的东西，对吗？
Now, that's often attributed elements of the divine, but there's reasons for that that we could go into.
现在，这通常被认为是神圣的元素，但我们可以探讨其中的原因。
But as soon as you know that the basic structure, even at the lower motivational level, is personality, well, then that changes the way you view the brain.
但一旦你知道基本结构，即使是在较低的动机水平上，也是个性，那么，这就会改变你看待大脑的方式。
Look, a lot of archaic deities are motivational systems, right?
你看，很多古代神灵都是激励系统，对吧？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Could you give me an example?
你能给我举个例子吗？
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Well, the god of war, Mars, that's rage.
嗯，战神玛尔斯，这就是愤怒。
That was a god that the Vikings invoked before they went into battle.
这是维京人在参战前祈求的神灵。
They would use Amanita muscaria, and they imitated predators, right, from an early age.
他们会使用毒蝇伞，而且他们从小就模仿捕食者。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This is acetylcholine, by the way, folks.
顺便说一句，伙计们，这是乙酰胆碱。
It has two general receptor systems, the nicotinic system, which is a stimulant but also relaxes you.
它有两个通用受体系统，烟碱系统，它是一种兴奋剂，但也能让你放松。
That's why people like nicotine.
这就是为什么人们喜欢尼古丁。
And then the muscarinic system, which creates changes in our self-perception and perception of the things around us.
然后是毒蕈碱系统，它会改变我们的自我认知和对周围事物的看法。
It's not so much a stimulant as it's a, I would veer towards almost like a psychedelic or an-
与其说它是一种兴奋剂，不如说它是一种，我会倾向于几乎像迷幻剂或-
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
it has an effect of making us less fearful-
它具有让我们不那么恐惧的效果-
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Mm
毫米
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and intrigued.
并很感兴趣。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
It's a radically atypical psychedelic.
这是一种完全非典型的迷幻剂。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
It's hard to describe.
很难描述。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah, yeah.
是啊，是啊。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hard to describe.
很难描述。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yes.
是的。
It's outside the LSD-
它在LSD外面——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
...
...
psilocybin-
裸盖菇素-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right
右
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
...
...
mescaline domain.
麦司卡林域。
But they would-
但他们会——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So people would take this as an agent?
那么人们会以此为代理吗？
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
The Vikings.
维京人。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The Vikings would take this as an agent-
维京人会以此为代理——
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
It's a technology
这是一项技术
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
before going into battle.
在投入战斗之前。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Sure, because what they were trying to do is make the personality of rage superordinate with no pain.
当然，因为他们想要做的就是让愤怒的性格在没有痛苦的情况下占据主导地位。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Right, and they practiced that from a very early age.
是的，他们从很小的时候就开始练习了。
So the Vikings worked themselves up.
于是维京人就开始努力起来。
They went berserk.
他们发疯了。
That means to wear the bear shirt, right?
这意味着要穿小熊衬衫，对吗？
They transformed themselves, so to speak, into predators.
可以说，他们把自己变成了掠食者。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They would narrow the context within which their, I'm calling them impulses-
他们会缩小范围，在其中他们的，我称之为冲动-
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
but you're giving a more sophisticated explanation for them, within which the aggressive impulse, the strategically aggressive impulse, could be channeled.
但你对它们给出了更复杂的解释，其中可以引导攻击性冲动，战略性攻击性冲动。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because that would-
因为那样会——
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
And give them full rein.
并给予他们充分的控制权。
Give them full rein, right.
给他们充分的权力，对吧。
They were experts at that.
他们是这方面的专家。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
To be able to decapitate people, eviscerate people-
能够斩首人、掏内脏——
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
do whatever it was that they needed to do in order to win.
为了获胜，他们需要做任何事情。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And to suppress their own feelings of pain, presumably.
大概是为了压抑自己的痛苦感受。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Well, then you could imagine, in a way, that what they were doing was bringing the full resources of the cortex and placing them at the service of the rage circuits in the hypothalamus.
好吧，那么你可以想象，在某种程度上，他们所做的就是调动大脑皮层的全部资源，并让它们为下丘脑的愤怒回路服务。
We have no idea what that would be like.
我们不知道那会是什么样子。
We don't do that.
我们不这样做。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
We have no idea what a human being who does that is like if they're expert at it.
我们不知道如果一个人是这方面的专家，那么他会是什么样子。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
It would give you nightmares to think about it deeply, right?
仔细想想，你会做噩梦吧？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
There's an experiment, if I may, that might shed some light on what it would look like.
如果可以的话，有一个实验可能会揭示它的样子。
A former guest on this podcast, actually, David Anderson at Caltech, has been studying hypothalamic circuits, and he and his former postdoc, Dayu Lin, discovered a small, tiny collection of neurons in the ventromedial hypothalamus that, when stimulated, would send these animals, these mice, you can find videos of this online, into a rage.
实际上，加州理工学院的大卫·安德森（David Anderson）是这个播客的前嘉宾，一直在研究下丘脑回路，他和他的前博士后林大宇发现，下丘脑腹内侧有一小群神经元，当受到刺激时，这些神经元会让这些动物、这些老鼠（你可以在网上找到相关视频）陷入愤怒。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Now, the interesting thing is, is it required the presence of another mouse?
现在，有趣的是，是否需要另一只鼠标的存在？
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And-
还有——
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Right.
对。
So it's still somewhat context-dependent.
所以它仍然在某种程度上依赖于上下文。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Somewhat context-dependent.
有点依赖于上下文。
If they were alone in their cage, they wouldn't attack themselves-
如果它们独自在笼子里，它们就不会攻击自己——
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
or the walls of the cage.
或笼子的墙壁。
But if you put a air or water-filled glove within the cage they would absolutely attack it to try and destroy it.
但如果你在笼子里放一只充满空气或充满水的手套，它们绝对会攻击它并试图摧毁它。
Then you turn off these neurons, the mouse is calm.
然后你关掉这些神经元，老鼠就平静了。
We can put a link to this in the show note caption.
我们可以在显示注释标题中添加指向此内容的链接。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Now, here's what's remarkable.
现在，这就是值得注意的地方。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The ventromedial hypothalamus has these neurons basically interspersed with other neurons that when stimulated, suppress rage and activate copulation.
下丘脑腹内侧的这些神经元基本上散布着其他神经元，这些神经元在受到刺激时会抑制愤怒并激活交配。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Incredible, right?
难以置信，对吧？
Within the same structure, you have these mutually exclusive sets of neurons and behaviors.
在同一结构中，您拥有这些相互排斥的神经元和行为集。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it speaks to, I think, some of the things that Freud and others have talked about-
我认为，它谈到了弗洛伊德和其他人谈论过的一些事情——
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Oh, definitely.
哦，当然。
The id
身份证号
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in terms of the juxtaposition of these neurons, but that they mutually inhibit one another, which lends itself to some really interesting questions about when aggression and sexuality become combined in states of pathology.
就这些神经元的并置而言，但它们相互抑制，这引发了一些非常有趣的问题，即攻击性和性欲何时在病理状态下结合在一起。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But in any event, so context-dependent control over impulses, over the hypothalamus seems to be the theme here.
但无论如何，对冲动和下丘脑的上下文依赖控制似乎是这里的主题。
And the other thing that-
还有另一件事——
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
you mentioned is the ability for your son, in this case, but presumably also the Vikings-
你提到的是你儿子的能力，在这种情况下，但大概也是维京人-
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
to be able to broaden their temporal scope, to be able to think about the time domain differently.
能够拓宽他们的时间范围，能够以不同的方式思考时域。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yes, yes.
是的，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This is something I'm absolutely obsessed by.
这是我绝对着迷的事情。
What I brought up at the beginning was that we have this autonomic arousal system.
我一开始提到的是我们有这种自主唤醒系统。
The more alert we are, the less we are able to take ourselves into notions of this too shall pass.
我们越警觉，我们就越无法接受这种情况也会过去的想法。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The past, the present, and the future.
过去、现在和未来。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Autonomic activation, stress, panic, fear, anger-
自主神经激活、压力、恐慌、恐惧、愤怒——
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
tend to make us-
往往会让我们——
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Shrink
收缩
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
lose sight.
失去视力。
We get blinders on, lose sight of the fact that there was a past, there's a present, and there's a future.
我们蒙蔽了双眼，忽视了过去、现在和未来的事实。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yes.
是的。
Well, that's because they're collapsing your domain of apprehension to the moment, so you will act.
嗯，那是因为他们正在瓦解你的恐惧范围，所以你会采取行动。
You have to collapse to the moment to act.
你必须崩溃到采取行动的那一刻。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Right.
对。
And so we should also point out for everyone that you don't want to underestimate the sophistication of the hypothalamus, and this is partly why conceptualizing its various states as subpersonalities is so useful.
因此，我们还应该向每个人指出，你不想低估下丘脑的复杂性，这就是为什么将其各种状态概念化为次人格如此有用的部分原因。
It's not unsophisticated.
这并不简单。
You can take a female cat and take out its whole brain except for the hypothalamus.
你可以拿一只母猫，取出它除了下丘脑以外的整个大脑。
So it's like 95% of its brain is gone, and in a relatively controlled environment, it's indistinguishable from a normal cat.
所以它的大脑就像95%都消失了，在相对受控的环境下，它和正常的猫没有什么区别。
It can do cat things and live.
它可以做猫的事情并生活。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
And it's hyper-exploratory.
而且它是超探索性的。
Now that's a very strange thing, where a cat with no brain is hyper-exploratory.
这是一件非常奇怪的事情，一只没有大脑的猫具有超强的探索能力。
It's not what you'd think at all, but it shows you how sophisticated the hypothalamus is.
这根本不是你想象的那样，但它向你展示了下丘脑的复杂程度。
It can run these programs, but they're programs of personality because they have perceptions.
它可以运行这些程序，但它们是个性化的程序，因为它们有感知。
It can run them, and it can do that quite successfully.
它可以运行它们，而且可以非常成功地做到这一点。
Now, all the higher order subcortical and cortical systems are, well, I think they are to your point, they're ways of expanding the apprehension of those fundamental motivational systems across broader and broader spans of time, incorporating more and more people, but also solving the problem of the conflict that emerges between those fundamental motivational states, right?
现在，所有更高阶的皮质下和皮质系统，我认为它们都符合你的观点，它们是在越来越广泛的时间跨度上扩展对这些基本动机系统的理解的方法，吸纳越来越多的人，同时也解决这些基本动机状态之间出现的冲突问题，对吗？
It's like, well, what do you do when you're hungry and tired, right?
就像，好吧，当你又饿又累的时候你会做什么，对吧？
Well, you have to mediate between the states to some degree.
嗯，你必须在某种程度上在各州之间进行调解。
What do you do if you want to solve the problem of being hungry and tired over a long period of time with other people, right?
如果你想和别人一起解决长时间饿、累的问题，你会怎么做，对吧？
Well, you need more and more brain to calculate that, right?
好吧，你需要越来越多的大脑来计算，对吧？
And so a huge part of what maturation is, is when we think about it as the capacity to forgo gratification.
因此，成熟的一个重要部分就是我们将其视为放弃满足的能力。
Actually, what's happening is that as you mature and your cortex comes online, let's say, you're able to regulate your behavior with more and more other things taken into account.
事实上，随着你的成熟和你的大脑皮层的上线，你可以通过考虑越来越多的其他事情来调节你的行为。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Right.
对。
Right.
正确的。
And there has to be some war there, which is why you're wrestling with God, let's say.
比方说，那里一定有一些战争，这就是你与上帝摔跤的原因。
There has to be some war there because it's also the case that you do have to satiate yourself in relationship to your basic biological needs, or you die.
那里必须有一些战争，因为在这种情况下，你确实必须满足自己的基本生物需求，否则你就会死。
And so there's going to be tension.
所以会有紧张。
And that is something like the tension between the individual and the group you might say.
这就像你可能会说的个人与群体之间的紧张关系。
That's how the Rousseaus or the Freudians would think about it.
这就是卢梭或弗洛伊德学派的想法。
So the weird thing about that is that it's not useful to identify your individuality with the dominion of a whim, and that's what hedonists do, and that's what immature people do.
所以奇怪的是，用一时兴起的支配来识别你的个性是没有用的，而这就是享乐主义者所做的，这就是不成熟的人所做的。
They think, "Well, why shouldn't I get what I want?" It's like, I see.
他们想：“好吧，为什么我不应该得到我想要的东西呢？”就好像，我明白了。
So your claim is that the you that's superordinate is what you want.
所以你的主张是，最高的你就是你想要的。
That means you're subjugated to these low order personalities.
这意味着你屈服于这些低级人格。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
And you might say, "Well, why is that wrong?" It's like, well, you're a two-year-old.
你可能会说，“那么，为什么这是错误的呢？”就像，好吧，你是一个两岁的孩子。
It doesn't work.
这不起作用。
If it's all about you and your immediate gratification, well, first of all, you're rather psychopathic because you could think of psychopathy as the extension of immaturity into adulthood.
如果这一切都与你和你的即时满足有关，那么，首先，你相当精神变态，因为你可以认为精神变态是不成熟到成年的延伸。
That's a pretty good default way of conceptualizing it.
这是一种很好的默认概念化方式。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
It's an unsophisticated strategy.
这是一个不复杂的策略。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They want what they want now.
他们现在想要的就是他们想要的。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Regardless.
不管怎样。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And they don't care about the we or the-
他们不关心我们或-
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Or the future
或者未来
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
or the future.
或未来。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
See, one of the ways I caught onto this relationship was because I studied antisocial behavior for a very long time.
看，我发现这种关系的方式之一是因为我研究了反社会行为很长时间。
Psychopaths, in particular, are notorious for their inability to learn from experience.
尤其是精神变态者，他们因无法从经验中学习而臭名昭著。
Okay, so what does that mean?
好吧，那这是什么意思呢？
It means that if they do something impulsive that causes them trouble in the future, the fact of that future trouble has no bearing on their continued behavior.
这意味着，如果他们做了一些冲动的事情，给他们带来了未来的麻烦，那么未来的麻烦这一事实与他们的继续行为无关。
Well, what that means is that they are so non-communitarian that they're willing to even betray their own future selves.
嗯，这意味着他们是如此的非社群主义，以至于他们甚至愿意背叛未来的自己。
There's no difference between that and betraying someone else.
这和背叛别人没有什么区别。
It's exactly the same mechanism.
这是完全相同的机制。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Very much a toddler approach.
非常适合幼儿的方法。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Well, so here's something I learned in Montreal.
嗯，这是我在蒙特利尔学到的东西。
I worked with a man named Richard Tremblay there, and I think Richard's lab used up one-third of all social science funding for Quebec at one time.
我在那里与一位名叫理查德·特伦布莱的人一起工作，我认为理查德的实验室一度用完了魁北克所有社会科学经费的三分之一。
He was a radically successful researcher, and he was really interested in antisocial behavior and was trying to get to the roots.
他是一位非常成功的研究人员，他对反社会行为非常感兴趣，并试图找出根源。
And one of the ...
而其中之一...
conclusions that our lab enterprise moved towards, one observation was that if you take two-year-olds, if you take kids at different ages, you could imagine you made a group of two-year-olds, three-year-olds, group of four-year-olds, all the way up to 15, you just let them interact.
我们实验室企业走向的结论，一个观察结果是，如果你带两岁的孩子，如果你带不同年龄段的孩子，你可以想象你创造了一组两岁的孩子，三岁的孩子，四岁的孩子，一直到15岁的孩子，你只是让他们互动。
The two-year-olds are the most aggressive.
两岁的孩子是最具攻击性的。
But if you analyze the two-year-olds themselves, you find that all the aggressive kids are boys, and it's only a fraction of them, about 5%.
但如果你对两岁孩子本身进行分析，你会发现，所有有攻击性的孩子都是男孩，而且只是其中的一小部分，大约是5%。
So if you group two-year-olds together, 5% of the boys will kick, steal, hit, and bite, which was our definition of early onset antisocial behavior.
因此，如果将两岁的孩子放在一起，5% 的男孩会踢、偷、打、咬，这就是我们对早发性反社会行为的定义。
Almost all of those kids are socialized by the age of four.
几乎所有这些孩子在四岁时就已经开始社交了。
Right?
正确的？
The remnant that aren't get alienated because they have no friends, and they're the ones who become juvenile delinquents, and then early onset criminals, and then repeat offenders.
那些没有被疏远的人，因为他们没有朋友，他们成为少年犯，然后是初犯，然后是累犯。
Right.
正确的。
And so what it is, imagine there's some kids whose default, their rage circuits are a little bit more dominant than the typical kid.
所以，想象一下，有一些孩子的默认行为，他们的愤怒回路比典型的孩子更占主导地位。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
They're often bigger physically.
他们的体格通常更大。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, especially the biting.
是的，尤其是咬人。
Forgive me for interrupting.
请原谅我打扰。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But there's a very interesting paper published about two years ago showing that there's a specific circuit from the hypothalamus to the neurons that control jaw closure that are independent of the neurons that control jaw closure for eating and for drinking-
但大约两年前发表的一篇非常有趣的论文表明，从下丘脑到控制下颌闭合的神经元有一个特定的回路，该回路独立于控制下颌闭合以进食和饮水的神经元——
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
That makes perfect sense
这很有道理
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that are specifically for aggressive biting.
专门用于攻击性咬合。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I hope people understand the significance of this, because what this means is there are dedicated circuits for aggressive biting in your hypothalamus.
我希望人们理解这一点的重要性，因为这意味着你的下丘脑中有专门的用于攻击性咬合的电路。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We all learn to suppress these-
我们都学会抑制这些——
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Wow
哇
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
except probably under conditions where our life is endangered-
除非我们的生命受到威胁——
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in which case you'd probably bite like hell in order to try and get out of that circumstance.
在这种情况下，你可能会拼尽全力试图摆脱这种情况。
But we are all born with this circuit.
但我们生来就有这个电路。
We die with this circuit.
我们会随着这个电路而死。
Most of us, apparently not these kids, learn to suppress this circuit.
我们大多数人，显然不是这些孩子，学会抑制这个回路。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Right.
对。
Or integrate it.
或者将其整合。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
An eight-year-old biter is a scary thing.
八岁的孩子咬人是一件可怕的事情。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
A one-year-old biter is a little bit of a worrisome thing.
一岁大的咬人者有点令人担忧。
A two-year-old, like, "Okay, we need to work on this."
一个两岁的孩子会说：“好吧，我们需要解决这个问题。”
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
An eight-year-old biter-
八岁的咬人者——
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
people are starting to be concerned.
人们开始担心。
I think even without knowledge of the psychopathology literature, one would be very concerned if their eight-year-old is biting other kids.
我认为即使不了解精神病理学文献，如果他们八岁的孩子咬其他孩子，人们也会非常担心。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Not just because of the damage induced, but it's so very different and so much more primitive than-
不仅仅是因为造成的伤害，而且它非常不同，而且比——
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
even hitting or spitting or something.
甚至打人、吐口水什么的。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Right.
对。
Exactly.
确切地。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
It's the indication of a virtual absence of sophisticated socialization.
这表明实际上缺乏复杂的社交活动。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
They are truly in their hypothalamus.
他们确实在下丘脑。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Right.
正确的。
Exactly.
确切地。
Well, especially if you have a hypothalamus that's tilted towards rage, let's say, and defensive or predatory aggression, that's bad news.
嗯，特别是如果你的下丘脑倾向于愤怒，比如说，防御性或掠夺性攻击，那是个坏消息。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Now, so what's the upshot of that?
那么，这样做的结果是什么呢？
Well, the upshot is that there is a subset of kids whose default reactions aren't socialized, and we associate that with psychopathy and long-term criminality.
好吧，结果是有一部分孩子的默认反应没有被社会化，我们将其与精神病和长期犯罪联系起来。
This is a really useful thing to understand, that much of what we see as pathology, and I would say the same thing about narcissism and certain forms of hedonism, essentially what it is, is failure of socialization.
这是一件非常值得理解的事情，我们所看到的病态，我想说的是，关于自恋和某些形式的享乐主义，本质上来说，都是社会化的失败。
Right?
正确的？
And this has very interesting political implications because it also implies that, imagine that impulsive self-gratification is a personality.
这具有非常有趣的政治含义，因为它还意味着，想象一下冲动的自我满足是一种人格。
The desire for impulsive self-gratification is a personality with its own political opinions.
冲动的自我满足的欲望是有自己政治观点的个性。
Nietzsche said in the late 1800s that every drive attempts to philosophize in its spirit.
尼采在 1800 年代末说过，每一种动力都试图在其精神中进行哲学思考。
Brilliant.
杰出的。
A brilliant observation.
一个精彩的观察。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Far different than conceiving of the, say, hypothalamic drives as deterministic chains of only impulses.
与将下丘脑驱动力视为仅由冲动组成的确定性链的想法截然不同。
And another thing to consider, too, with regards to the effect of hypothalamic motivation on perception, that mouse that you talked about whose attack system is activated electronically.
另一件需要考虑的事情是，关于下丘脑动机对感知的影响，你谈到的那只老鼠的攻击系统是通过电子方式激活的。
See, when that glove is dropped, you can see that there's a relationship with perception.
看，当手套掉下来时，你会发现这与感知有关系。
Because if there's no target for attack that's biologically relevant in the environment, there's no impulse.
因为如果环境中没有与生物相关的攻击目标，就不会产生冲动。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
So you could imagine that what happens is when you activate those neurons, is that there's a set of perceptual stimuli that are much more likely to be classified as a defeatable enemy.
所以你可以想象当你激活这些神经元时会发生什么，是有一组感知刺激更有可能被归类为可击败的敌人。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Now, even a glove will do it.
现在，即使是手套也能做到。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Right.
对。
So you drop it a glove, and that's now perceived as defeatable enemy, or perhaps threat, because we don't know exactly what the perception would be.
所以你给它戴上一只手套，它现在被视为可击败的敌人，或者可能是威胁，因为我们不知道确切的看法是什么。
But then you see, then it's the perception driving the behavior.
但你会发现，是感知驱动了行为。
That's not an impulse.
那不是冲动。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
That's more like a strategy, and I really started to understand some of the literature on the evolution of religious thinking when I started to understand motivational states as personalities.
这更像是一种策略，当我开始将动机状态理解为人格时，我才真正开始理解一些关于宗教思维演变的文献。
Because one of the things that you see, this is so cool, something I tried to talk to Dawkins about, the greatest historian of religions who ever lived was Mircea Eliade, and he wrote a sequence of brilliant books.
因为你看到的一件事，这太酷了，我试图与道金斯谈论这一点，有史以来最伟大的宗教历史学家是米尔恰·埃利亚德，他写了一系列精彩的书籍。
"The Sacred and the Profane" is the best one to start with.
《神圣与世俗》是最好的开始。
Very short book, very elegant book.
非常短的书，非常优雅的书。
And what Eliade documented across the world was the pattern by which polytheistic belief systems turned into monotheistic belief systems.
埃利亚德在世界各地记录的是多神信仰体系转变为一神信仰体系的模式。
That parallels maturation.
这与成熟相似。
It's the same thing.
这是同样的事情。
And so the polytheistic gods tend to be representations of motivational states.
因此，多神论的神往往是动机状态的代表。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm going to pause you there because I think this is extremely important.
我要在这里暂停一下，因为我认为这非常重要。
So the god of war.
所以战神。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Yeah.
是的。
Or the god of love.
或者是爱神。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The goddess of love, or the god of love.
爱神，或者说是爱神。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Exactly that.
正是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So the idea that the different gods are the reflective of different-
所以认为不同的神是不同的反映——
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Christian motivate-
基督教的动机——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We'll just say it as neuroscientists, as different hypothalamic and related circuits, et cetera.
我们只是将其作为神经科学家、不同的下丘脑和相关回路等来说。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Well, why wouldn't they be gods?
那么，他们为什么不成为神呢？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Beware of falling under their dominion.
谨防落入他们的管辖之下。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Beware of becoming their playthings.
小心成为他们的玩物。
And the other thing that's very interesting, you see, is that you have to also understand that these don't exist independently of historical context.
另一件非常有趣的事情是，你还必须明白，这些并不是独立于历史背景而存在的。
So let's say rage.
那么我们就说愤怒吧。
It's like There's a literature of rage.
就像有一种愤怒的文学。
There's a culture of rage.
有一种愤怒的文化。
There are patterns of rage that are played out in drama and literature.
戏剧和文学中都有不同的愤怒模式。
It's not only that the motivational impulse is a personality, it's a personality with a history and a philosophy.
动机冲动不仅是一种个性，而且是一种具有历史和哲学的个性。
And if you don't think it can possess you, you don't know very much about possession.
而如果你认为它不能占有你，那你就不太了解占有。
So for example, if you're fighting with someone and you become enraged, as you said, your temporal purview shrinks, and your notion of what constitutes victory is radically transfigured.
例如，如果你在与某人打架，并且你变得愤怒，正如你所说，你的时间范围就会缩小，你对胜利的理解就会彻底改变。
So if you're fighting with someone you love, you might want to defeat them or even hurt them independently of the fact that you actually love them.
因此，如果你和你爱的人打架，你可能会想打败他们，甚至伤害他们，不管你是否真的爱他们。
Well, then you think, well, you're gripped by these impulses.
好吧，然后你想，好吧，你被这些冲动所控制。
No, no. You're inhabited by the spirit of rage.
不，不。你的内心充满了愤怒的精神。
And if you're a sophisticated person, there's going to be an endless stream of sophisticated intellectual rationalizations that come along with that possession, right?
如果你是一个老练的人，就会有无穷无尽的复杂的智力合理化伴随着这种拥有，对吧？
It's full-fledged personality.
可谓是个性十足。
One of the things you see with people who are psychotic, who drift off into the landscape of their imagination, is that they dwell on such states of possession.
你在精神病患者身上看到的一件事是，他们沉浸在自己想象的风景中，他们沉迷于这种占有状态。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
So for example, these kids that shoot up high schools, they're fantasizing under the influence of rage and resentment for thousands of hours.
举例来说，这些高中毕业的孩子，他们在愤怒和怨恨的影响下幻想了数千个小时。
That just takes control of them.
这只会控制他们。
And it's not a simple impulse.
而且这并不是一个简单的冲动。
You could think they've inverted the neurological order and the god of rage is now the, what would you say, the leading personality of integration, or the god of resentful rage, even worse.
你可能会认为他们颠倒了神经秩序，愤怒之神现在是，你会说，整合的主导人格，或者怨恨之怒之神，甚至更糟。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And this circuit may run in reverse.
并且该电路可以反向运行。
My colleague David Spiegel, who's our vice chair of psychiatry at Stanford, has done some beautiful experiments examining the relationship between prefrontal cortical areas and the insula, a brain area that has a map of our internal body state, interoception, our ability to sense our internal workings, et cetera.
我的同事大卫·斯皮格尔（David Spiegel）是我们斯坦福大学精神病学系的副主席，他做了一些精彩的实验，研究了前额皮质区域和岛叶之间的关系，岛叶是一个大脑区域，具有我们内部身体状态、内感受、我们感知内部运作的能力等的地图。
In any event, there are certain conditions, including depression, where the direction of flow between the prefrontal cortex and the insula literally reverses.
无论如何，在某些情况下，包括抑郁症，前额叶皮层和岛叶之间的流动方向实际上是相反的。
It's like running against the typical traffic.
这就像逆着典型的交通运行一样。
This is a very different example because here you're presenting it in the context of rage or sociopathy and these kids who shoot up schools.
这是一个非常不同的例子，因为在这里你是在愤怒或反社会以及这些枪击学校的孩子的背景下呈现它的。
But I do absolutely subscribe to what you just said, that if one drops into one of these more primitive states and emotions and all the things that go with it for a very long time, it's almost as if the governor, which is the prefrontal cortex, starts to become the governed.
但我绝对同意你刚才所说的，如果一个人在很长一段时间内陷入这些更原始的状态和情绪之一以及与之相伴的所有事情，几乎就好像统治者，即前额叶皮层，开始成为被统治者。
That the whole circuit starts to-
整个电路开始——
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yes, right
是的，没错
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
run from bottom up as opposed to top down.
自下而上运行，而不是自上而下运行。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah, definitely.
是的，绝对是。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I think there's good neurological evidence-
我认为有很好的神经学证据-
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
That's what happens in addiction.
这就是上瘾时发生的情况。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Right, again.
对了，再来一次。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
So you hit that circuit that's seeking the drug with repeated doses of dopamine.
因此，您进入了通过重复剂量的多巴胺寻找药物的回路。
People say they have a monkey on their back.
人们说他们背上有一只猴子。
It's like, no, they have a monster in their brain, and they grew it.
就好像，不，他们的大脑里有一个怪物，他们把它培养出来了。
And it grows because it's reinforced with dopaminergic hits.
它的增长是因为它受到多巴胺能的刺激而增强。
And as it grows, its capacity to dominate increases.
随着它的成长，它的主导能力也在增强。
And so when there's a cue for the addiction, this is why people relapse when they get out of a treatment center.
因此，当出现成瘾迹象时，这就是为什么人们离开治疗中心后会旧瘾复发的原因。
They'll go back to their normal environment after having dealt with the physiological withdrawal, let's say, and a cued craving will make itself manifest like a friend they freebase with, and it's all of a sudden, woo, that monster is alive, and it just shuts everything else down.
在处理完生理退缩之后，他们会回到正常的环境，比方说，一种暗示的渴望会像他们一起自由基地的朋友一样显现出来，突然间，哇，那个怪物还活着，它只是关闭了其他一切。
And it's got a personality.
而且它有个性。
It can lie.
它可以撒谎。
One of the hallmarks of addictive behavior is lying, and the lies are the rationalizations of that sub-circuit, sub-personality for its own pathological behavior.
成瘾行为的标志之一是撒谎，而谎言是子回路、子人格对其自身病态行为的合理化。
And that's all reinforced, too, by the dopaminergic hits.
多巴胺能的作用也强化了这一切。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's like there's multiple people-
就好像有很多人一样——
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Deadly
致命的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in there.
在那里。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah, definitely.
是的，绝对是。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In every one.
在每一个中。
One of the most incredible ex-
最令人难以置信的前任之一
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Polytheistic paganism.
多神异教。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Polytheistic paganism.
多神异教。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah, that's the default condition.
是的，这是默认条件。
Right.
正确的。
That's the condition of the two-year-old.
这就是两岁孩子的情况。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd like to take a quick break and thank our sponsor, AG1.
我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商 AG1。
AG1 is an all-in-one vitamin mineral probiotic drink with adaptogens.
AG1 是一种含有适应原的一体化维生素矿物质益生菌饮料。
I've been taking AG1 daily since 2012, so I'm delighted that they're sponsoring this podcast.
自 2012 年以来，我每天都服用 AG1，所以我很高兴他们赞助这个播客。
The reason I started taking AG1, and the reason I still take AG1, is because it is the highest quality and most complete foundational nutritional supplement.
我开始服用 AG1 的原因，以及我仍然服用 AG1 的原因，是因为它是最高品质和最完整的基础营养补充剂。
What that means is that AG1 ensures that you're getting all the necessary vitamins, minerals, and other micronutrients to form a strong foundation for your daily health.
这意味着 AG1 可确保您获得所有必需的维生素、矿物质和其他微量营养素，为您的日常健康奠定坚实的基础。
AG1 also has probiotics and prebiotics that support a healthy gut microbiome.
AG1 还含有支持健康肠道微生物群的益生菌和益生元。
Your gut microbiome consists of trillions of microorganisms that line your digestive tract and impact things such as your immune system status, your metabolic health, your hormone health, and much more.
您的肠道微生物组由数万亿微生物组成，这些微生物排列在您的消化道中，并影响您的免疫系统状态、代谢健康、激素健康等。
So I've consistently found that when I take AG1 daily, my digestion is improved, my immune system is more robust, and my mood and mental focus are at their best.
因此，我一直发现，当我每天服用 AG1 时，我的消化能力得到改善，我的免疫系统更加强大，我的情绪和精神集中度也处于最佳状态。
In fact, if I could take just one supplement, that supplement would be AG1.
事实上，如果我只能服用一种补充剂，那么该补充剂就是 AG1。
If you'd like to try AG1, you can go to drinkag1.com/huberman to claim a special offer.
如果您想尝试 AG1，可以访问 Drinkag1.com/huberman 申请特别优惠。
If you'd like to try AG1, you can go to drinkag1.com/huberman to claim a special offer.
如果您想尝试 AG1，可以访问 Drinkag1.com/huberman 申请特别优惠。
Right now, they're giving away five free travel packs and a year's supply of vitamin D3 K2.
目前，他们正在赠送五个免费旅行包和一年的维生素 D3 K2。
Again, that's drinkag1.com/huberman to claim that special offer.
再次强调，您可以通过 Drinkag1.com/huberman 领取特别优惠。
Today's episode is also brought to us by ROKA.
今天的节目也是ROKA给我们带来的。
ROKA makes eyeglasses and sunglasses that are of the absolute highest quality.
ROKA 生产绝对最高品质的眼镜和太阳镜。
I'm excited to share that ROKA and I have teamed up to create a new style of red lens glasses.
我很高兴地告诉大家，我和 ROKA 联手打造了一款新型红色镜片眼镜。
These red lens glasses are meant to be worn in the evening after the sun goes down.
这些红色镜片的眼镜适合在晚上太阳落山后佩戴。
They filter out short wavelength light that comes from screens and from LED lights, the sorts of LED lights that are most commonly used as overhead and, frankly, lamp lighting nowadays.
它们过滤掉来自屏幕和 LED 灯的短波长光，这些 LED 灯最常用作头顶照明，坦率地说，是当今的台灯照明。
Now, I want to emphasize ROKA red lens glasses are not traditional blue blockers.
现在，我想强调的是 ROKA 红镜片眼镜不是传统的蓝光阻挡器。
They're not designed to be worn during the day and to filter out blue light from screen light.
它们的设计目的不是为了在白天佩戴，也不是为了滤除屏幕光中的蓝光。
They're designed to prevent the full range of wavelengths that suppress melatonin secretion at night and that can alter your sleep.
它们的设计目的是防止各种波长抑制夜间褪黑激素的分泌，从而改变您的睡眠。
So by wearing ROKA red lens glasses, they help you calm down, and they improve your transition to sleep.
因此，佩戴 ROKA 红色镜片眼镜可以帮助您平静下来，并改善您入睡的过渡。
Most nights, I stay up until about 10:00 p.m.
大多数晚上，我都会熬夜到晚上 10:00 左右。
or even midnight, and I wake up between 5:00 and 7:00 a.m., depending on when I went to sleep.
甚至午夜，我会在凌晨 5:00 到 7:00 之间醒来，具体取决于我入睡的时间。
Now I put my ROKA red lens glasses on as soon as it gets dark outside, and I've noticed a much easier transition to sleep, which makes sense based on everything we know about how filtering out short wavelengths of light can allow your brain to function correctly.
现在，一旦外面天一黑，我就戴上 ROKA 红色镜片眼镜，我注意到进入睡眠的过渡要容易得多，根据我们所知道的关于过滤短波长光如何让大脑正常运作的所有知识，这是有道理的。
ROKA red lens glasses also look cool, frankly.
坦白说，ROKA 红镜片眼镜看起来也很酷。
You can wear them out to dinner or to concerts or out with friends.
您可以穿着它们去参加晚宴、音乐会或与朋友外出。
So it turns out it is indeed possible to support your biology, to be scientific about it, and to remain social after all.
所以事实证明，确实有可能支持你的生物学，使其科学化，并毕竟保持社交性。
If you'd like to try ROKA, go to roka.com, that's R-O-K-A.com, and enter the code Huberman to save 20% off your first order.
如果您想尝试 ROKA，请访问 roka.com，即 R-O-K-A.com，然后输入代码 Huberman，即可在首次订单时享受 20% 的折扣。
Again, that's R-O-K-A.com, and enter the code Huberman at checkout.
再次强调，这是 R-O-K-A.com，并在结账时输入代码 Huberman。
One of the most remarkable real-life examples I've ever witnessed of the power of belief in God, I'm just going to say it as it occurred.
这是我所见过的最引人注目的现实生活例子之一，展示了信仰上帝的力量，我只想在它发生时说出来。
I have a good friend who for many years struggled with alcohol and drug addiction-
我有一个好朋友，多年来一直与酗酒和毒瘾作斗争——
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
of multiple kinds.
多种。
Incredibly kind person, incredibly successful in his career, married, two beautiful children, multiple relapses.
非常善良的人，事业非常成功，已婚，有两个漂亮的孩子，多次旧病复发。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Crashed his truck at 7:00 in the morning after getting intoxicated at 6:30 in the morning.
早上 6:30 喝醉后，他的卡车于早上 7:00 撞毁。
Got out of that one, happened again and again.
摆脱了那个，一次又一次发生。
Multiple rehab centers of the sort of standard treatment, et cetera.
多个康复中心进行标准治疗等等。
And then ultimately, enough happened within that whole set of circumstances that his wife said, "This is it.
最终，在整个情况下发生了足够多的事情，他的妻子说：“就是这样。
You've got to solve this, or we just can't be with you."
你必须解决这个问题，否则我们就不能和你在一起。”
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
A very scary situation for everybody involved, including him-
对于所有参与者来说，这都是一个非常可怕的情况，包括他——
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
who absolutely adored his family.
他非常爱他的家人。
He told us, his friends, that he was going to go to a center here in Los Angeles that treats addiction with essentially religion.
他告诉我们，他的朋友，他要去洛杉矶的一个中心，该中心本质上是用宗教来治疗毒瘾的。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
A belief in God.
对上帝的信仰。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
He was already fairly religious.
他已经相当虔诚了。
Most Sundays he attended church and things of that sort.
大多数星期天他都会去教堂做类似的事情。
And you can imagine we all thought, including myself, like, "Okay, dude.
你可以想象我们所有人，包括我自己，都会想，“好吧，伙计。
Good luck."
祝你好运。”
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Right.
正确的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
"I hope this works," but I would say zero minus one confidence in his ability to get and stay sober.
“我希望这能奏效”，但我对他恢复和保持清醒的能力的信心为零减一。
He just had not succeeded prior to this.
只是在此之前他还没有成功过。
He's been sober more than four years now.
到现在他已经戒酒四年多了。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
He got out of there and never looked back.
他离开了那里，再也没有回头。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I wonder now whether something must have changed in his brain by adopting what was essentially a-
我现在想知道他的大脑中是否一定发生了某些变化，因为他采用了本质上是-
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Different incentive structure
激励结构不同
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
Right.
对。
Different incentive structure.
激励结构不同。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But fear wasn't doing it before, fear of extreme consequences-
但恐惧以前并没有这样做，是对极端后果的恐惧——
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
which were on the table at that time when he went in weren't enough.
他进去的时候桌子上的东西还不够。
Something about going there and the work that he did there allowed him to then, it's almost like he got another prefrontal cortex.
去那里以及他在那里所做的工作让他能够做到这一点，这几乎就像他得到了另一个前额皮质。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
A more powerful-
更强大的——
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
prefrontal cortex.
前额皮质。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So maybe we could talk about that.
所以也许我们可以谈谈这个。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Well, that's not a bad way of thinking about what it is that people are trying to do when they, say, pray.
好吧，这不失为一种思考人们在祈祷时想要做什么的好方法。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
So you can invite in spirits to possess you.
所以你可以邀请灵魂占有你。
That's a good way of thinking about it.
这是一个很好的思考方式。
I know that's odd terminology, but that's what you do when you dwell on your rage.
我知道这是个奇怪的术语，但这就是你沉浸在愤怒之中时所做的事情。
Right.
正确的。
Now, imagine that you're doing that in the most positive possible direction.
现在，想象一下您正在朝着最积极的方向做这件事。
So what you're doing is you're generating a hypothesis about the mode of conduct and perception that would best typify you if you were ideal, and then establishing a relationship with that and inviting it in.
因此，你所做的就是对行为模式和感知方式产生一个假设，如果你是理想的人，它最能代表你，然后与之建立关系并邀请它加入。
That's what the evangelical Protestants are doing when they formulate a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.
这就是福音派新教徒在与耶稣基督建立个人关系时所做的事情。
That's exactly what they're doing.
这正是他们正在做的事情。
Now, on the addiction side, so I studied alcoholism for years.
现在，在成瘾方面，我研究酗酒多年。
That was the target of my dissertation and the first 20 papers that I published.
这是我的论文和我发表的前 20 篇论文的目标。
I knew the alcoholism literature very well, and the neurological end of it as well.
我非常了解酗酒的文献，也非常了解它的神经学结局。
And it was known among alcohol researchers, it's been known for 60 years, more even, that the most reliable treatment for alcoholism was religious transformation.
60 年来，酒精研究人员都知道，治疗酗酒最可靠的方法是改变宗教信仰。
And this is well accepted among researchers in the field who have no religious affiliation whatsoever.
这在该领域没有任何宗教信仰的研究人员中得到了广泛接受。
And I do believe that a huge part of that is a consequence of incentive restructuring.
我确实相信，其中很大一部分是激励重组的结果。
So you said, for example, with your friend that fear wouldn't work.
例如，你对你的朋友说，恐惧是行不通的。
Well, alcohol's a pretty good anxiolytic drug, but it's also for people who are prone to alcoholism, it's a good incentive reward source like cocaine.
嗯，酒精是一种相当不错的抗焦虑药物，但对于容易酗酒的人来说，它也是像可卡因一样很好的激励奖励来源。
You can't get rats addicted to cocaine if they live in a natural environment.
如果老鼠生活在自然环境中，就不会让它们对可卡因上瘾。
They have to be isolated in a cage before they'll bar press to their own death for cocaine.
他们必须被隔离在笼子里，否则他们将因可卡因而自杀。
So one of the things you want to do when you treat addiction is you want to substitute a new incentive structure, right?
因此，当你治疗成瘾时，你想做的事情之一就是你想要替代新的激励结构，对吗？
Because part of the addictive process is you fall into a false incentive pattern, right?
因为成瘾过程的一部分是你陷入错误的激励模式，对吗？
Because cocaine makes you feel like you're doing something useful in respect to an important goal, even though you're not.
因为可卡因让你感觉自己正在为一个重要目标做一些有用的事情，尽管事实并非如此。
It mimics that.
它模仿那个。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Even if you know you're not.
即使你知道你不是。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Even if you know it's irrelevant.
即使你知道这无关紧要。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I know, I say I've never done cocaine.
我知道，我说我从来没有吸过可卡因。
I would-
我会-
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
be open about it if I had.
如果我有的话，请对此持开放态度。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think I like dopaminergic states enough that I've been very scared of doing it, frankly.
坦率地说，我想我非常喜欢多巴胺能状态，以至于我非常害怕这样做。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Also, it wasn't around much just because of when I went to college.
而且，仅仅因为我上大学的时候，它就不再存在了。
It just wasn't a drug that was around much.
它只是一种不常见的药物。
But it's a remarkable drug in the sense that people who take cocaine seem to be excited about everything.
但从某种意义上说，它是一种非凡的药物，服用可卡因的人似乎对一切都感到兴奋。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They're in this high dopaminergic state, and their brain becomes exceptionally good at finding cocaine, even in the absence of resources-
他们处于这种高多巴胺能状态，即使在缺乏资源的情况下，他们的大脑也变得异常擅长寻找可卡因——
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Mm
毫米
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
which is pretty remarkable-
这是非常了不起的——
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Of course
当然
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
if you think about it.
如果你想一想。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Of course.
当然。
Mm.
毫米。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Most people can't find the thing or get the thing they want in the absence of the resources to get it, but people who take hard drugs that really spike dopamine somehow manage.
大多数人在缺乏资源的情况下无法找到或得到他们想要的东西，但服用确实会刺激多巴胺的硬性药物的人却能以某种方式做到这一点。
Yeah, sure.
是的，当然。
Sometimes they-
有时他们——
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
They find a path.
他们找到了一条路。
See, that's a very-
看，这是一个非常-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sometimes lie, cheat, and steal
有时撒谎、欺骗和偷窃
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
...
...
That's extremely interesting.
这非常有趣。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Lie, cheat, and steal, but they'll do other things, too, right?
撒谎、欺骗、偷窃，但他们也会做其他事情，对吧？
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They'll socialize with people that have it, so they don't have to lie, cheat, and steal.
他们会与拥有这种能力的人交往，这样他们就不必撒谎、欺骗和偷窃。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's incredible to see that drug and things like methamphetamine take over people's-
令人难以置信的是，毒品和甲基苯丙胺之类的东西占据了人们的——
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
minds.
头脑。
And now I'm thinking-
现在我在想——
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
The pathway appears when the aim is firmly in mind.
当目标牢牢记住时，道路就会出现。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Right?
对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
See, this is another insistence that's derived from the religious literature.
看，这是源自宗教文献的另一种坚持。
So because the idea there is that if your aim is upward, the pathway forward to that will make itself manifest, and that's true.
因为那里的想法是，如果你的目标是向上的，那么前进的道路就会显现出来，这是真的。
You just pointed out that it was true in relationship to addiction, right?
你刚才指出这与成瘾有关，对吗？
Is that if once you're in that realm of Possessed personality.
是不是一旦你进入了附魔人格的境界。
The pathway forward will show itself to you even under straightened circumstances.
即使在困难的情况下，前进的道路也会向你展示。
Right, and it's partly because you could think of our perceptional systems, and our emotional systems for that matter, as navigating tools.
是的，部分原因是你可以将我们的感知系统和情感系统视为导航工具。
Right.
正确的。
So now the addicted brain, like they say, the aim is possessed by the substance of addiction.
所以现在成瘾的大脑，就像他们说的，目标被成瘾的实质所占据。
Right?
正确的？
So now the highest god is cocaine, let's say.
那么现在最高的神就是可卡因，这么说吧。
And so now all pathways in the world are pathways to cocaine.
所以现在世界上所有的途径都是可卡因的途径。
All objects in the world are markers on the pathway to cocaine, because it just dominates.
世界上的所有物体都是可卡因途径上的标记，因为它占据了主导地位。
But it's not just an impulse.
但这不仅仅是一种冲动。
It dominates the perceptual landscape as well.
它也主导着感知景观。
And the emotional landscape.
还有情感风景。
And it comes with all these rationalizations.
它伴随着所有这些合理化。
That's all those lies, right?
这就是所有这些谎言，对吗？
The whole thing.
整个事情。
It's a whole personality.
这是一个完整的人格。
Yeah.
是的。
Brutal.
野蛮。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Nowadays, I get a lot of questions about pornography.
如今，我收到很多有关色情的问题。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And the discussion around pornography is always related to the discussion around masturbation.
而关于色情的讨论总是与关于自慰的讨论相关。
But let's just talk about pornography for a moment in this context of these primitive drives and these circuits within the hypothalamus, which we were all born with, that clearly some of them are devoted to our progression as a species through reproduction.
但是，让我们暂时谈谈色情内容，在这些原始驱动力和下丘脑内的这些回路的背景下，我们都是与生俱来的，显然其中一些致力于我们作为一个物种通过繁殖的进步。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Zero question about that.
对此零疑问。
Sexual behavior being linked to reproduction.
性行为与繁殖有关。
Not always, but certainly.
并非总是如此，但肯定如此。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We can all agree on that.
我们都同意这一点。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
It's a necessary precondition.
这是必要的前提。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I hope we can still all agree on that.
我希望我们仍然能够在这一点上达成一致。
But last time I checked, that's still true.
但我上次检查时，情况仍然如此。
A sperm and an egg met someplace in some context to create all of us.
精子和卵子在某种环境下的某个地方相遇，创造了我们所有人。
Okay?
好的？
We're still grounded in that.
我们仍然扎根于此。
Pornography is something that I hear quite a lot from typically young males, but sometimes young females-
我经常从年轻男性那里听到色情内容，但有时也从年轻女性那里听到——
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
or even older females who say that they can see themselves trying to resist the desire to go look at it.
甚至年长的女性也说，她们可以看到自己在努力抵制去看它的欲望。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it almost doesn't feel like a desire anymore.
而且它几乎不再是一种欲望了。
They're sort of just in a compulsion that is almost unconscious, but they're just aware of the fact that they're-
他们只是处于一种几乎无意识的强迫之中，但他们只是意识到他们——
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Like an eating disorder.
就像饮食失调一样。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Like an eating disorder.
就像饮食失调一样。
They're doing it, they know they shouldn't be doing it, and they can't help themselves.
他们正在这样做，他们知道自己不应该这样做，但他们无法控制自己。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And we could think about two ways to attack this if one believes it's a real concern, and they certainly do, so I do.
如果有人认为这是一个真正令人担忧的问题，我们可以考虑两种方法来解决这个问题，他们确实这样做，所以我也这样做。
I would be open if I had or do.
如果我有的话我会持开放态度。
Pornography's not been my thing, and I don't struggle with it.
色情不是我的事，我也不为此挣扎。
But when I hear from these people, it's so clear that they're asking, is it the prevalence of pornography out there, or is it something really broken in them?
但当我听到这些人的来信时，很明显他们在问，这是色情作品的盛行，还是他们内心真的有什么问题？
Are they broken?
它们坏了吗？
But I don't know that I would say after having the discussion we've had thus far that they're broken.
但我不知道在我们迄今为止的讨论之后我会说它们已经被破坏了。
It seems to me that it's like, as you said, it's the manifestation of one part of their-
在我看来，正如你所说，这是他们的一部分的表现——
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
it's one personality within them.
这是他们内心的一种个性。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Well, and it's been compulsively rewarded.
嗯，而且这是强制性的奖励。
So you know, when you see yourself moving towards the culmination of a desired goal, that's accompanied by dopamine release, okay?
所以你知道，当你看到自己朝着理想目标的顶峰迈进时，就会伴随着多巴胺的释放，好吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
And so two things, you know this, but everybody who's listening might not.
所以有两件事，你知道，但每个正在听的人可能不知道。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
There's two elements to that dopamine release.
多巴胺的释放有两个因素。
One is pleasure.
一是快乐。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
But the other is that the dopamine, imagine that there are circuits activated as you're acting.
但另一个是多巴胺，想象一下当你行动时，有一些电路被激活。
What the dopamine does is increase the probability that the circuits that were activated just before the positive experience happened, grow.
多巴胺的作用是增加在积极体验发生之前激活的回路生长的可能性。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Okay, so now if you're engaged with pornography, and that culminates in successful sexual satiation, which it can, that's what masturbation does, then the whole personality that's oriented toward that set of stimuli is going to come to dominate.
好吧，现在如果你沉迷于色情内容，并且最终获得成功的性满足，这就是手淫的作用，那么面向那组刺激的整个人格将占据主导地位。
It's very much like an addiction.
这很像一种瘾。
There has been work done with generally simpler animals on these phenomena called superstimuli.
人们已经对一般较简单的动物进行了关于这些称为“超级刺激”的现象的研究。
I think it's stickleback fish where this was first observed.
我认为这是第一次观察到这种情况的棘鱼。
So males, I hope I get this right, but I've got it approximately right.
所以男性们，我希望我能做对，但我已经做对了。
I believe it's male sticklebacks, they are very aggressive towards other male sticklebacks, and the reason they're aggressive is because the other male sticklebacks have a red dot on their bellies.
我相信这是雄性刺鱼，它们对其他雄性刺鱼非常具有攻击性，而它们之所以具有攻击性是因为其他雄性刺鱼的腹部有一个红点。
So they don't like red dots at all.
所以他们根本不喜欢红点。
And so you can really enrage a stickleback with a red dot.
所以你可以用红点真正激怒棘鱼。
And if you use a red dot that's a little bigger and a little brighter than the typical red dot, you get a superstimulus.
如果你使用比典型红点更大一点、更亮一点的红点，你就会得到超级刺激。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
It's virtually irresistible to the stickleback.
这对刺鱼来说几乎是不可抗拒的。
And it's weird because the maximal activation is produced by a stimulus that they wouldn't see in nature.
这很奇怪，因为最大的激活是由他们在自然界中看不到的刺激产生的。
It slightly exceeds...
它稍微超过...
That's exactly what pornography does.
这正是色情作品的作用。
It's a superstimulus.
这是一个超级刺激。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Right?
对吗？
And it's not surprising that young males, in particular, are susceptible to that because male sexuality in human beings is very visually oriented.
毫不奇怪，年轻男性尤其容易受到这种影响，因为人类的男性性行为非常注重视觉导向。
Very.
非常。
And a lot of our brain is visual, way more than virtually every other animal.
我们的大脑大部分都是视觉区域，比几乎所有其他动物都要多。
Certainly every other primate, and every other mammal.
当然还有所有其他灵长类动物和所有其他哺乳动物。
And so we have a situation where any 13-year-old boy can see more hyper-attractive superstimulus women in one day than the most successful man who ever lived 100 years ago would have ever seen in his whole life.
因此，我们面临着这样一种情况：任何一个 13 岁的男孩在一天之内所见到的超级有吸引力、超级刺激的女人，比 100 年前最成功的男人一生中见过的还要多。
Yeah, well, that's an evolutionary, ecological, radical ecological transformation.
是的，这是一种进化的、生态的、彻底的生态转变。
And it's worse because it's easily accessible, so it takes no work.
更糟糕的是，它很容易获得，所以不需要任何工作。
Right?
正确的？
So not only is it a superstimulus, it's one that's at hand, so to speak.
因此，可以说，这不仅是一种超级刺激，而且是迫在眉睫的刺激。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And the analog in the food world would be-
食品世界中的类比是——
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Sugar
糖
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
highly palatable, highly processed food.
高度适口、高度加工的食品。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Sugar, fat combination.
糖、脂肪的组合。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The other day, I went into a gas station to use the restroom because I was traveling home for Thanksgiving, and I looked around, and I thought, "This isn't a convenience store.
有一天，我去加油站上厕所，因为我要回家过感恩节，我环顾四周，我想，“这不是一家便利店。
This is a pharmacy."
这是一家药房。”
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Everything that had chocolate also seemed to have caffeine and color.
所有含有巧克力的东西似乎都含有咖啡因和颜色。
Every drink seemed to combine not just sugar, but also caffeine and some other things that would provide stimulants.
每杯饮料似乎不仅含有糖，还含有咖啡因和其他一些能提供兴奋剂的物质。
Then you've got nicotine.
那么你就得到了尼古丁。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Energy drinks.
能量饮料。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And these things on their own aren't necessarily bad, any one of these one elements in low enough doses, infrequent use, et cetera.
这些东西本身并不一定是坏事，任何一种元素的剂量足够低、不经常使用等等。
But maybe sugar being the one that clearly, I think, deserves deeper investigation, right?
但我认为，也许糖显然值得更深入的研究，对吗？
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But it just occurred to me that-
但我突然想到——
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
There isn't much difference between manufacturing sugar and manufacturing cocaine.
制造糖和制造可卡因之间没有太大区别。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
You take something that's available in its natural form in relatively low concentrations and purify it.
您可以提取浓度相对较低的天然形式的物质并对其进行纯化。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Coca leaves, the natives used coca leaves forever as a mild stimulant, didn't seem to cause them any trouble, but that's way different than cocaine.
古柯叶，当地人永远用古柯叶作为温和的兴奋剂，似乎没有给他们带来任何麻烦，但这与可卡因有很大不同。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Right?
对吗？
And sugar has arguably the same pathological properties.
糖可以说具有相同的病理特性。
So-
所以——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, I didn't think we were going to go here, but I think it's extremely appropriate and important that we do.
嗯，我不认为我们会去这里，但我认为我们这样做是非常合适和重要的。
So I know that you followed what is essentially an elimination diet for a number of years.
所以我知道你多年来一直遵循基本上是消除饮食的方式。
You eat meat.
你吃肉。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
I eat meat, vegetables, fruit, and some starches, unrefined starches.
我吃肉、蔬菜、水果和一些淀粉，未精制的淀粉。
In any event, one thing that I think is absolutely clear from following a clean diet, so to speak, of any kind, but let's say of the sort that you follow or I follow, is that you very soon learn the relationship between taste of the food, volume of the food, macronutrient, so protein, fat, or carbohydrate content, micronutrients, and satiation.
无论如何，我认为遵循任何类型的清洁饮食绝对清楚的一件事是，你很快就会了解食物的味道、食物的体积、宏量营养素（即蛋白质、脂肪或碳水化合物含量、微量营养素和饱腹感）之间的关系。
Which is, if you think about it, sort of like a big plate of broccoli or a big steak or something.
如果你仔细想想，这有点像一大盘西兰花或一大块牛排之类的。
The brain learns, and the hypothalamus learns the association between the taste, the caloric content, what else is in there, and satiation.
大脑进行学习，下丘脑学习味道、热量含量、其中的其他成分和饱腹感之间的关联。
If you think about highly processed food or even combinations of multiple ingredients, that's absolutely impossible to do.
如果您考虑高度加工的食品甚至多种成分的组合，那绝对是不可能做到的。
The brain can't parse what are the various things in here and how do they relate to my feelings of satisfaction.
大脑无法解析这里有哪些不同的东西以及它们与我的满足感有何关系。
It's the difference between a super drug and what I believe are the elements that we have-
这就是超级药物和我认为我们拥有的元素之间的区别——
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Explain why you think that link-
解释一下为什么你认为这个链接-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
...
...
link about satiation can't be learned in the case of these processed foods.
对于这些加工食品，无法了解有关饱腹感的链接。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, because in the context of these processed foods, they're activating multiple neuron systems in the hypothalamus and gut.
是的，因为在这些加工食品的背景下，它们激活了下丘脑和肠道中的多个神经元系统。
We know that the gut has neurons that can respond to sugar, fatty acids, and amino acid content.
我们知道肠道有可以对糖、脂肪酸和氨基酸含量做出反应的神经元。
And there's this prominent theory that one of the main reasons we eat is to forage for amino acids.
有一个著名的理论认为，我们吃东西的主要原因之一是寻找氨基酸。
That we'll eat until we get enough of the essential amino acids.
我们会一直吃下去，直到获得足够的必需氨基酸。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And we correlate that with taste, but that the gut has neurons, where we know the gut has neurons that signal through the vagus, up through a little relay called the nodose ganglion, if you want to look at it, fun name, and then up to the dopaminergic centers of the brain, which make us, oh, when we eat something that has a high essential amino acid content, like a steak, like a really tasty steak.
我们将其与味觉联系起来，但是肠道有神经元，我们知道肠道有神经元，这些神经元通过迷走神经发出信号，通过一个叫做结节神经节的小中继，如果你想看它，有趣的名字，然后到大脑的多巴胺能中心，这让我们，哦，当我们吃一些必需氨基酸含量高的东西时，比如牛排，就像一块非常美味的牛排。
The neurons in the gut, in a way that is independent of taste, are signaling to the brain, "Ah, I'm getting essential amino acids.
肠道中的神经元以一种独立于味觉的方式向大脑发出信号：“啊，我正在获取必需氨基酸。
You should eat more of this thing." If those, let's just say a small fraction of those amino acids that are present in a candy bar or in a package of Skittles, which I'm guessing there's very few of them, if any, you're going to continue to forage for food because those neurons will also respond to sugar.
你应该多吃点这个东西。”如果是这些，我们只说糖果棒或一包彩虹糖中存在的一小部分氨基酸，我猜它们的含量很少，如果有的话，你将继续寻找食物，因为这些神经元也会对糖做出反应。
Basically, it will keep you eating until you get enough of those amino acids.
基本上，它会让你继续吃东西，直到你摄入足够的氨基酸。
In other words-
换句话说——
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Mm
毫米
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
there are two parallel tracks.
有两条平行轨道。
One within our taste system.
我们的品味系统中的一个。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Multiple pathways to satiation.
多种途径获得饱腹感。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Totally right.
完全正确。
Multiple pathways to satiation.
多种途径获得饱腹感。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Of course.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
One dependent on taste, one dependent on actual nutrient content.
一种取决于口味，一种取决于实际营养含量。
The mouth can only learn taste association.
嘴巴只能学习味觉联想。
The mouth can't actually learn nutrient content.
嘴巴实际上无法了解营养成分。
The gut knows nutrient content.
肠道知道营养成分。
The problem is-
问题是——
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Mm
毫米
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
you take a food that is low in a micronutrient or macronutrient or essential amino acids or essential fatty acids.
您摄入的微量营养素或常量营养素或必需氨基酸或必需脂肪酸含量较低的食物。
After all, there are no essential carbohydrates.
毕竟，没有必需的碳水化合物。
There are only essential amino acids and essential fatty acids.
只有必需氨基酸和必需脂肪酸。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it will keep you eating, and it will keep the appetite system revving until you get enough of those.
它会让你继续吃东西，让食欲系统保持运转，直到你吃够为止。
Now, here's the issue.
现在，问题来了。
If you've ever done this, it's probably been-
如果你曾经这样做过，那可能是——
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
So that's empty calories, so to speak.
可以这么说，这就是空卡路里。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Empty calories.
空卡路里。
So in some ways, this again is an analog to the whole discussion around pornography, masturbation, and reproduction, right?
所以在某些方面，这又类似于围绕色情、手淫和生殖的整个讨论，对吗？
I'm not saying that reproduction is the be-all, end-all of sexual activity, but in the evolutionary sense, it absolutely is.
我并不是说繁殖是性活动的全部，但从进化的角度来看，它绝对是。
Right?
正确的？
There's no question about that.
毫无疑问。
There's no moral judgment there.
那里没有道德判断。
That's just the reality.
这就是现实。
So the situation with food is the following.
那么食物的情况如下。
If we are eating without any gut-level understanding about what's coming in, we will keep eating.
如果我们在吃东西时没有任何直觉地了解接下来会发生什么，我们就会继续吃下去。
If you, let me give an example.
如果你，让我举个例子。
You probably haven't done this experiment in a while, but if you've ever just had a rib eye steak or two, it's pretty satiating.
您可能已经有一段时间没有做过这个实验了，但是如果您曾经吃过一两块肋眼牛排，那就相当饱腹了。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Very.
非常。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Maybe you also have a salad if you're me, or some broccoli or something like that.
如果你是我的话，也许你还会吃一份沙拉，或者一些西兰花或类似的东西。
If one takes, then even after you've eaten all that, one bite of pasta, the next impulse is more.
如果有人吃了，那么即使你吃完所有这些，咬一口意大利面，下一次冲动也会更多。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
Even though you already have enough essential amino acids from those steaks.
即使您已经从这些牛排中获得了足够的必需氨基酸。
Your leucine threshold, you've reached that, et cetera, all of that good stuff.
你的亮氨酸阈值，你已经达到了，等等，所有这些好东西。
Why?
为什么？
Because blood glucose goes up, and then you desire more because blood glucose elevations are linked directly to the dopaminergic system.
因为血糖升高，你就会想要更多，因为血糖升高与多巴胺能系统直接相关。
So what I'm basically trying to say here is that I do think that there are elements to our food, modern food, if you will.
所以我在这里基本上想说的是，我确实认为我们的食物，现代食物，如果你愿意的话，有一些元素。
It seems like it's anything but modern in the sense that it's worse for us than the more primitive foods.
它似乎一点也不现代，因为它比更原始的食物对我们来说更糟糕。
But highly processed foods, pornography, any drug that spikes dopamine dramatically, like methamphetamine, for instance, any behavior that spikes dopamine dramatically, that very quickly hijacks these circuits.
但高度加工的食品、色情作品、任何会急剧增加多巴胺的药物，例如甲基苯丙胺，任何会急剧增加多巴胺的行为，都会很快劫持这些回路。
And to me, the way to teach those circuits a calmer, more prudent version of themselves, right?
对我来说，这是教会这些电路一个更冷静、更谨慎的版本的方法，对吗？
To enter a different hypothalamic activation pattern, is to start breaking the things down into their essential elements, right?
要进入不同的下丘脑激活模式，就要开始将事物分解为其基本元素，对吗？
About the motivation, the pleasure, et cetera, to tamp all that down.
关于压制这一切的动机、乐趣等等。
We know that for pornography, if the pornography is very extreme, then less extreme pornography doesn't seem to work.
我们知道，对于色情内容，如果色情内容非常极端，那么不太极端的色情内容似乎就不起作用。
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Well, that's because there's also a novelty kick in dopaminergic striving, right?
嗯，那是因为多巴胺能的努力也有一种新奇的刺激，对吧？
So with any basic appetitive pleasure, there's a dopaminergic kick, but with any novelty, there's also a dopaminergic kick.
因此，任何基本的食欲愉悦都会产生多巴胺能刺激，但任何新奇事物也会产生多巴胺能刺激。
So there's an optimized threshold for novelty and appetitive striving that plays out in pornography.
因此，色情作品中的新鲜感和食欲追求有一个优化的阈值。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
So there's the direct effect of the stimulus as such, but there's variation in the stimulus that's also novel, and so it's a common pattern for-
因此，刺激本身具有直接影响，但刺激也存在新颖的变化，因此这是一种常见模式-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
...
...
pornographic usage to become more What would you say?
色情用途变得更多 你会说什么？
Fetishistic.
恋物癖。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
That's one way of thinking about it as it progresses, because that keeps the novelty alive.
这是随着事情的进展而思考它的一种方式，因为这样可以保持新颖性。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Right.
正确的。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
That's very dangerous.
那是非常危险的。
That's a very dangerous development.
这是一个非常危险的发展。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right, and I would venture in a very different domain, that if you were to eat your steak slathered in barbecue sauce for a couple of weeks, going back to the way that you eat them now...
是的，我会冒险进入一个非常不同的领域，如果你要吃涂有烧烤酱的牛排几个星期，回到你现在吃它们的方式......
Which, by the way, this is a great opportunity to educate people about something that you taught me when we had dinner last, which is that if you're going to order a steak, order a Pittsburgh char.
顺便说一句，这是一个很好的机会来教育人们一些你上次吃晚饭时教给我的东西，那就是如果你要点牛排，就点匹兹堡炭。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Oh.
哦。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The char on the outside is incredibly tasty.
外面的炭非常好吃。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We love that, the umami taste.
我们喜欢它的鲜味。
We each have devoted taste receptors to that.
我们每个人都有专门的味觉感受器。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah, it's complex.
是的，这很复杂。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
And if they don't know what a Pittsburgh char is, then maybe you're in the wrong restaurant, or you need to educate them.
如果他们不知道匹兹堡炭是什么，那么也许你进错餐厅了，或者你需要教育他们。
But incredibly satiating, delicious, right?
但令人难以置信的满足，美味，对吧？
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But if you were to slather those steaks in a bunch of things, I would suspect that after a while, your plain steaks wouldn't taste as good.
但如果你把这些牛排涂在一堆东西上，我怀疑一段时间后，你的普通牛排味道就不那么好了。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Oh, certainly.
哦，当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But the way to make them taste good again would be to eat them plain for a period of time in which the stuff, all the condiments, et cetera, would start to become aversive.
但要让它们再次变得美味，方法就是直接吃一段时间，在这段时间内，里面的东西、所有的调味品等等都会开始变得令人厌恶。
I do believe that when we return to the most naturally satisfying mode of engaging with these circuits, here we're talking about food and sex in parallel, that they become especially satiating.
我确实相信，当我们回到与这些回路接触的最自然令人满意的模式时，在这里我们同时谈论食物和性，它们会变得特别令人满意。
And I think that in hearing from all these people that are addicted to pornography, and they're not addicted like it's telling me they love it, and they can't stop.
我认为，在听到所有这些沉迷于色情内容的人的声音时，他们并不像色情内容上瘾那样告诉我他们喜欢色情内容，而且他们无法停止。
They're telling me it's no longer working for them, that there's this diminishment in the amount of dopamine that they're getting over time, and they feel trapped within it, and they have no sense whatsoever because they haven't been socialized to go out and find a real relationship, a real sexual relationship, or a relationship of any kind.
他们告诉我，这对他们不再有效，随着时间的推移，他们获得的多巴胺量逐渐减少，他们感觉自己被困在其中，他们没有任何感觉，因为他们还没有社会化出去寻找真正的关系，真正的性关系，或任何类型的关系。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Well, there is some evidence suggesting, too, that if you've been socialized into pornography sexuality, it's actually quite difficult to establish a sexual relationship with an actual partner.
嗯，也有一些证据表明，如果你已经习惯了色情性行为，那么与真正的伴侣建立性关系实际上是相当困难的。
Now, I would say to some degree, that's always been difficult because it's a complex form of behavior.
现在，我想说在某种程度上，这一直很困难，因为这是一种复杂的行为形式。
But the introduction of pornography, well, it sets up a whole landscape of expectation, for example, that's not necessarily going to play out that well in the real world, let's say.
但是，色情作品的引入，嗯，它建立了一个完整的期望景观，例如，这不一定会在现实世界中发挥得那么好，比方说。
So yeah.
所以是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And there's also a learning of those biological systems in the brain to evoke arousal by observing sex as opposed to-
大脑中的生物系统也通过观察性行为来唤起性欲，而不是——
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
participating.
参与。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yes, right.
是的，没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Completely different.
完全不同。
So some of these-
所以其中一些-
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Right, that's voyeur, right.
没错，就是偷窥狂，没错。
You're basically learning to be a voyeur.
你基本上是在学习成为一个偷窥狂。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And so you think about young brains that are highly plastic-
所以你会想到具有高度可塑性的年轻大脑——
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
learning that.
学习那个。
So the returning-
所以返回的——
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah, we have no idea what to make of that, especially for young men, because when they hit puberty, sexuality becomes a very insistent force, and we have no idea what effect pornography has on the development of male sexuality.
是的，我们不知道该怎么解释，尤其是对年轻男性来说，因为当他们进入青春期时，性欲成为一种非常持久的力量，而我们不知道色情内容对男性性欲的发展有何影响。
None.
没有任何。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I've wondered for a while whether there's something inherently rewarding about creating impact or action at a distance.
一段时间以来，我一直在想，远距离产生影响或采取行动是否有本质上的回报。
Here's why.
原因如下。
I've been watching these videos of Elon's rockets and thinking, "That is awesome."
我一直在观看埃隆火箭的这些视频并想，“这太棒了。”
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
We're built on a throwing platform.
我们建立在投掷平台上。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, there's one image of the rocket thrusters that just captivated me.
是的，有一张火箭推进器的图片让我着迷。
I'm not a spacecraft guy.
我不是太空人。
I think it's really cool, but I wouldn't consider myself somebody that looks at the stars and thinks, "I want to go up there." I might, if given the opportunity, but that's not been my thing.
我认为这真的很酷，但我不会认为自己是一个看着星星并想“我想去那里”的人。如果有机会的话我可能会这样做，但这不是我的事。
But I looked at this, and I thought, "What an awesome display of power."
但我看着这个，我想，“这是多么令人敬畏的力量展示啊。”
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But then I was thinking, what is power?
但后来我在想，什么是权力？
It's really about having impact or action at a distance.
这实际上是关于在远处产生影响或采取行动。
When we were kids, we liked-
当我们还是孩子的时候，我们喜欢——
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Targeted
有针对性
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
dirt clod wars.
泥土战争。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Targeted impact at a distance.
远距离有针对性的影响。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
What an incredible display of funneling the laws of physics and engineering into something that can have enormous action at a distance and perhaps even take us into new galaxies.
这是多么令人难以置信的展示，将物理和工程学定律融入到可以在远距离产生巨大作用甚至可能将我们带入新星系的事物中。
Amazing.
惊人的。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Wow.
哇。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
The word "sin" in many languages means to miss the target.
在许多语言中，“罪”这个词的意思是未击中目标。
Right.
正确的。
And it speaks to exactly what you're describing, the cachet of action at a distance.
它正是你所描述的，远距离行动的标志。
That's unbelievably deeply embedded in us.
这令人难以置信地深深地植根于我们的内心。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
That's why I made that throwing gesture.
这就是为什么我做出了那个投掷手势。
Human beings throw.
人类投掷。
That's our physiology, right?
这就是我们的生理学，对吗？
We can throw something at a distant target.
我们可以向远处的目标扔东西。
Well, that structured our cognition.
嗯，这构建了我们的认知。
We're using our thoughts to hit distant targets.
我们正在用我们的思想来击中遥远的目标。
That's what we do.
这就是我们所做的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
All the games that young men play, so many of those games are target games.
年轻人玩的所有游戏，其中很多都是目标游戏。
All of the sports spectacles that people want to participate in vicariously, even vicariously, they're target-hitting games.
人们想要间接参与的所有体育赛事，甚至是间接参与的体育赛事，都是击中目标的比赛。
Our gaze specifies as the center of a target.
我们的目光指定为目标的中心。
There's targets everywhere, and we're unbelievably focused on bridging the gap between where we are and where we're going.
到处都有目标，我们难以置信地致力于缩小我们现在的位置和我们要去的地方之间的差距。
Yeah, that's the whole perceptual landscape.
是的，这就是整个感知景观。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd like to take a quick break and thank one of our sponsors, Function.
我想稍微休息一下，并感谢我们的赞助商之一 Function。
I recently became a Function member after searching for the most comprehensive approach to lab testing.
在寻找最全面的实验室测试方法后，我最近成为了 Function 成员。
While I've long been a fan of blood testing, I really wanted to find a more in-depth program for analyzing blood, urine, and saliva to get a full picture of my heart health, my hormone status, my immune system regulation, my metabolic function, my vitamin and mineral status, and other critical areas of my overall health and vitality.
虽然我长期以来一直热衷于血液检测，但我真的很想找到一个更深入的程序来分析血液、尿液和唾液，以全面了解我的心脏健康状况、我的激素状态、我的免疫系统调节、我的代谢功能、我的维生素和矿物质状态以及我整体健康和活力的其他关键领域。
Function not only provides testing of over 100 biomarkers key to physical and mental health, but it also analyzes these results and provides insights from top doctors on your results.
Function 不仅提供对身心健康至关重要的 100 多种生物标志物的测试，还分析这些结果并提供顶级医生对结果的见解。
For example, in one of my first tests with Function, I learned that I had too high levels of mercury in my blood.
例如，在我第一次使用 Function 进行测试时，我发现我的血液中汞含量过高。
This was totally surprising to me.
这让我完全惊讶。
I had no idea prior to taking the test.
参加考试之前我不知道。
Function not only helped me detect this, but offered medical doctor-informed insights on how to best reduce those mercury levels, which included limiting my tuna consumption, because I had been eating a lot of tuna, while also making an effort to eat more leafy greens and supplementing with NAC, N-acetylcysteine, both of which can support glutathione production and detoxification and worked to reduce my mercury levels.
功能不仅帮助我发现了这一点，而且还为我提供了如何最好地降低汞含量的医生知情见解，其中包括限制我的金枪鱼消费，因为我一直在吃大量金枪鱼，同时还努力多吃绿叶蔬菜并补充 NAC、N-乙酰半胱氨酸，这两者都可以支持谷胱甘肽的产生和解毒，并有助于降低我的汞含量。
Comprehensive lab testing like this is so important for health, and while I've been doing it for years, I've always found it to be overly complicated and expensive.
像这样的综合实验室测试对健康非常重要，虽然我已经这样做了很多年，但我总是发现它过于复杂和昂贵。
I've been so impressed by Function, both at the level of ease of use, that is getting the test done, as well as how comprehensive and how actionable the tests are, that I recently joined their advisory board, and I'm thrilled that they're sponsoring the podcast.
Function 给我留下了深刻的印象，无论是在易用性方面，还是在完成测试方面，以及测试的全面性和可操作性方面，我最近加入了他们的顾问委员会，我很高兴他们赞助了这个播客。
If you'd like to try Function, go to functionhealth.com/huberman.
如果您想尝试 Function，请访问 functionhealth.com/huberman。
Function currently has a wait list of over 250,000 people, but they're offering early access to Huberman Lab listeners.
Function 目前有超过 250,000 人的等待名单，但他们正在为 Huberman Lab 听众提供早期访问机会。
Again, that's functionhealth.com/huberman to get early access to Function.
同样，可以通过 functionhealth.com/huberman 提前访问 Function。
So this thing about action at a distance to me feels like so inherent to our progression as a species.
因此，对我来说，远距离行动就像是我们作为一个物种的进步所固有的。
Most technologies are about that.
大多数技术都与此相关。
In fact, if you think about social media, somebody tweets something, and when people react to it, maybe positively or negatively.
事实上，如果你想想社交媒体，有人会发推文，当人们对此做出反应时，可能是积极的，也可能是消极的。
The school shooter, in a very dark example, a sad and a tragic example, right?
校园枪击案是一个非常黑暗的例子，一个悲伤而悲惨的例子，对吧？
Action at a distance.
远距离行动。
Then you think about pornography and masturbation, and I'm not passing any moral judgment here.
然后你会想到色情和手淫，我不会在这里做出任何道德判断。
It's like the ultimate form of creating action at a distance would be to create a new human being with somebody, right?
就像远距离创造行动的最终形式是与某人一起创造一个新人类，对吗？
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
You're propagating it in physical distance, creating a new being, and in time.
你正在物理距离上传播它，并及时创造一个新的存在。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Oh.
哦。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
Incredible.
极好的。
And then you think about masturbation, and you think about pornography, and there is no action at a distance.
然后你想到手淫，想到色情，但没有任何远距离的动作。
And I'm not just punning here.
我在这里不只是双关语。
Literally, there's not much action at a distance.
从字面上看，远距离没有太多动作。
It's all up close to oneself, but there's no impact on anybody.
一切都在自己身边，但对任何人都没有影响。
It's almost as if the energy that we're born with to be able to create positive things, to evolve our species through action at a distance, through creation of knowledge, technology, children-
这几乎就像是我们与生俱来的能量，能够创造积极的事物，通过远距离行动，通过创造知识、技术、儿童来进化我们的物种——
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Oh
噢
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
communities, culture.
社区、文化。
It's just loop-
这只是循环——
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
The ultimate expression of sterility
无菌的终极体现
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
it's just looped back into oneself.
它只是循环回到自己身上。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Oh.
哦。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's as if, and I don't know what language there is for this in biology, but it's as if all that dopaminergic drive is just looped back into oneself, and it goes nowhere.
就好像，我不知道生物学中有什么语言可以描述这一点，但就好像所有的多巴胺能驱动力都回到了自己身上，而且哪儿也去不了。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I think when I hear about the incredibly, like the language for it is only like the diminished souls of these people who are coming to me saying like, "Help." And I'm thinking, "Okay, listen, I'm a podcaster.
我想，当我听到令人难以置信的事情时，就像这些人的灵魂被削弱了一样，他们来找我说“救命”。我在想，“好吧，听着，我是一名播客。
I'm a scientist.
我是一名科学家。
I know some things about the dopaminergic system." But there are ways that they can get help.
我知道一些关于多巴胺能系统的事情。”但他们可以通过多种方式获得帮助。
I think there are 12-step programs for this and so forth and other things.
我认为有 12 个步骤的程序可以用于此等等以及其他事情。
But I think what they're saying is that they're just kind of dissolving in their own reflex.
但我认为他们所说的是他们只是在自己的条件反射中溶解。
But there's no action at a distance for them.
但他们无法进行远距离行动。
This is the same thing I see with the failure to launch kids who are still living at home, who are not having any action at a distance.
这与我看到的同样的情况是，未能让那些仍住在家里、没有在远处进行任何活动的孩子们被送走。
I think we were designed to disperse from our families and to create action at a distance up until a certain age.
我认为我们生来就是为了远离家人，在一定的年龄之前在一定距离内采取行动的。
But I see so many of the problems that we face as failure to find a productive way to have action at a distance.
但我认为我们面临的许多问题都是未能找到有效的方式进行远程行动。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Well, that's a failure of adventure, I would say, in the terminology that I've been developing.
嗯，用我一直在开发的术语来说，我想说，这是一次冒险的失败。
So for example, in this book, In We Who Wrestle with God, one of the stories I analyze is the story of Abraham, and it's a very interesting story psychologically.
例如，在《我们与上帝摔跤》这本书中，我分析的一个故事是亚伯拉罕的故事，从心理上来说这是一个非常有趣的故事。
I think it's stunning, actually, and I'll lay some of that out for you, and tell me what you think about it.
事实上，我认为这令人惊叹，我会为您列出一些内容，并告诉我您的想法。
So the divine is characterized in the classic stories of our culture as the ultimate up.
因此，在我们文化的经典故事中，神圣的特征是终极的。
So you can think about the divine as the target as such, rather than any particular target.
所以你可以将神圣视为目标本身，而不是任何特定的目标。
So here's a way of thinking about it.
所以这是一种思考方式。
So an ambition will seize you, and then you'll aim at fulfilling that ambition.
因此，一个野心会抓住你，然后你就会致力于实现这个野心。
But once the ambition is fulfilled, a new ambition makes itself manifest, which might be a greater ambition, let's say, if your personality is expansive.
但一旦实现了野心，一个新的野心就会显现出来，如果你的个性是开放的，那么这可能是一个更大的野心。
And then if you fulfill that, the same thing will happen.
如果你实现了这一点，同样的事情也会发生。
So then you can imagine that there's a meta ambition behind all proximal ambitions.
所以你可以想象所有近端野心背后都有一个元野心。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Okay.
好的。
Now, the characterization of the divine is a characterization of that meta ambition.
现在，神圣的表征就是元野心的表征。
That's a good way of thinking about it.
这是一个很好的思考方式。
So it's something that recedes as you approach it, but it's also the thing that all ambitions have in common.
因此，当你接近它时，它就会消退，但这也是所有野心的共同点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
And we know there is such a thing because otherwise we wouldn't have a concept of ambition, right?
我们知道有这样的事情，否则我们就不会有野心的概念，对吧？
Which speaks to a commonality among ambitions.
这说明了野心之间的共性。
Okay.
好的。
In the story of Abraham, the divine is characterized in relationship to something like ambition.
在亚伯拉罕的故事中，神性的特征是与野心之类的东西相关。
So Abraham, he's already immersed in a situation that's akin in a way to the scenario of a wealthy and a person in the modern world who's in a situation of abundance.
所以亚伯拉罕，他已经陷入了一种类似于现代世界中富人和富裕人的情况。
Abraham's parents are wealthy, and they provide for him.
亚伯拉罕的父母很富有，他们供养他。
There's nothing he needs to do.
他不需要做任何事。
And in consequence, so he's attained the socialist utopia or the consumerist utopia.
结果，他实现了社会主义乌托邦或消费主义乌托邦。
You can look at it either way.
你可以用任何一种方式来看待它。
And there's no reason for him to move forward.
他没有理由继续前进。
So he doesn't.
所以他没有。
He doesn't do anything till he's 75.
他75岁之前什么也不做。
And then the voice comes to him, which is the voice of adventure, and it's God in this story.
然后他听到了一个声音，这是冒险的声音，也是这个故事中的上帝。
That's how God is defined, right?
这就是上帝的定义，对吗？
And God says to Abraham, "You have to leave all this comfort," which is a very interesting proposition to begin with.
神对亚伯拉罕说，“你必须离开所有这些安慰”，这首先是一个非常有趣的命题。
It's like, why the hell would you leave that when you have everything you need?
就像，当你拥有所需的一切时，你为什么要离开它呢？
Well, the implication is that you don't have everything you need when you're being delivered everything you need.
好吧，这意味着当你得到你需要的一切时，你并没有拥有你需要的一切。
That isn't how life works.
生活不是这样的。
Okay, so God says, "You have to leave your father's tent.
好吧，上帝说：“你必须离开你父亲的帐篷。
You have to leave your tribe.
你必须离开你的部落。
You have to leave those who speak your language.
你必须离开那些说你语言的人。
You have to venture out into the world." So God is conceptualized in this story as the impulse, the voice that compels you out into the world and that encourages you to do so.
你必须去外面的世界冒险。”因此，上帝在这个故事中被概念化为一种冲动，一种迫使你进入这个世界并鼓励你这样做的声音。
So that's a hypothesis about what the ultimate up is.
这是关于最终结果的假设。
Okay.
好的。
And Abraham agrees, and he does so in two ways.
亚伯拉罕也同意，他通过两种方式做到这一点。
He builds an altar signifying his aim, that he's going to abide by the command of this voice or the invitation of this voice, and that he'll make the appropriate sacrifices.
他建造了一座祭坛，表明他的目标，他将遵守这个声音的命令或这个声音的邀请，并且他将做出适当的牺牲。
It's a crucial point to understand because the process of transformation requires sacrifice.
这是理解的关键点，因为转变的过程需要牺牲。
To be more than you are means you have to let go of that which you were.
超越你自己意味着你必须放弃你的过去。
You have to make sacrifices.
你必须做出牺牲。
Now, Abraham's life is punctuated by a sequence of reaffirmations of his upward aim and declamations of his willingness to sacrifice.
现在，亚伯拉罕的生活被一系列对他向上的目标的重申和他愿意牺牲的宣言所打断。
Every time he finishes an adventure, he reconstitutes the covenant.
每次他完成一次冒险，他都会重新订立盟约。
So this is this agreement to follow the voice of adventure.
所以这就是这个遵循冒险之声的约定。
Okay.
好的。
God makes him a deal.
上帝与他做了一笔交易。
That's the covenant.
这就是契约。
It's a very interesting deal.
这是一笔非常有趣的交易。
So now imagine, biologically speaking, that there is an instinct to integrate that operates within us.
现在想象一下，从生物学角度来说，我们体内有一种整合的本能。
Okay, so now it's just as fundamental as the hypothalamic motivational states, let's say, but it's more sophisticated.
好吧，现在它与下丘脑动机状态一样基本，可以说，但它更复杂。
And what it's trying to do is to integrate all the motivational states across time and socially.
它试图做的就是整合跨时间和跨社会的所有动机状态。
And then imagine it manifests itself as an instinct to be something like the instinct to mature.
然后想象它表现为一种本能，类似于成熟的本能。
To move forward.
继续前进。
To leave your zone of comfort.
离开你的舒适区。
And maybe there have been people like Csikszentmihalyi who've characterized that as the attractiveness of flow, and maybe it's associated with the exploratory circuit in the hypothalamus that's mediated by dopamine.
也许像 Csikszentmihalyi 这样的人将其描述为心流的吸引力，也许它与下丘脑中由多巴胺介导的探索回路有关。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Okay.
好的。
But it's got its character.
但它有它的特色。
Now, the character of that instinct in this story, the way it's characterized is as the voice of adventure.
现在，这个故事中那种本能的特征，它的特征是冒险的声音。
So it's the thing that asks you to move beyond your zone of comfort and go into the foreign world.
所以它要求你走出舒适区，进入异国他乡。
Now, the advantage to that is that you fortify yourself and you develop.
现在，这样做的好处是你可以增强自己并得到发展。
So no matter how good you are now, if you push yourself to the edge, you're going to be better than you are, and that's a better win than merely being good like you are now.
所以，无论你现在有多优秀，如果你把自己逼到极限，你就会比现在更好，这比仅仅像现在这样优秀是更好的胜利。
So that would be participation in that transformative process is a higher form of attainment than mere attainment of any specific goal.
因此，参与变革过程是比仅仅实现任何特定目标更高的成就形式。
Okay, so that's the call to adventure.
好吧，这就是冒险的召唤。
That's the call to a quest.
这就是对任务的召唤。
That's what Gandalf offers Bilbo, for example.
例如，这就是甘道夫向比尔博提供的东西。
Okay.
好的。
God characterizes the consequences of that, and this is so cool.
上帝描述了其后果，这太酷了。
When I figured this out, it just flattened me.
当我弄清楚这一点时，我简直崩溃了。
It's so interesting.
太有趣了。
God says, okay, if you-- God is defined as that which says this, by the way.
上帝说，好吧，如果你——顺便说一下，上帝被定义为这么说的。
If you push yourself beyond your zone of comfort, even if it's functioning for you, that's Abraham's situation, here's what'll happen.
如果你把自己推到舒适区之外，即使它对你有用，这就是亚伯拉罕的情况，这就是会发生的事情。
You'll live your life in a manner that's a blessing to you.
你将以一种对你来说是祝福的方式度过你的生活。
So that's a good deal, because lots-- The miserable people you're talking about, the depressed people, the trapped people, their life isn't a blessing to themselves.
所以这是一件好事，因为很多——你所说的悲惨的人、沮丧的人、受困的人，他们的生活对自己来说并不是一种祝福。
So what's a pathway to blessing?
那么，什么是通往祝福的路呢？
Well, it's not satiation, not in this formulation.
嗯，这不是饱腹感，在这个公式中不是这样。
It's the voluntary quest, and it's characterized by adventure.
这是自愿的追求，其特点是冒险。
So that's deal number one.
所以这是第一件事。
You'll live in a life that'll be a blessing to you.
你将过着一种对你来说是祝福的生活。
Okay, and then God says, "That's not all that'll happen.
好吧，然后神说：“事情还不止这些。
You'll be a blessing to yourself in a manner that will make you renowned among other people justly." So that's a good deal because we know that people, men in particular, are very status-oriented, partly because their reproductive success is highly correlated with their social status, and the psychopaths game that, but still, it's like renown is crucially important.
你将以某种方式成为自己的祝福，让你在其他人中享有公正的声誉。”所以这是一件好事，因为我们知道人们，尤其是男性，非常注重地位，部分原因是他们的繁殖成功与他们的社会地位高度相关，而精神病患者则认为，名誉仍然至关重要。
You want to be the quarterback on the shoulders of your teammates.
你想成为队友肩膀上的四分卫。
So that'll be the second thing that happens, and then the same voice says, "And that's not all.
所以这将是发生的第二件事，然后同一个声音说：“这还不是全部。
You'll be a blessing to yourself and be renowned in a manner that will maximize the probability that you will establish something of lasting value." That's a good deal.
你将成为自己的祝福，并以一种最大限度地提高你建立具有持久价值的东西的可能性的方式而闻名。”这是一个很好的交易。
So that's stretching across time, multi-generationally, because God tells Abraham that if he follows the pathway of adventure, he'll be the father of nations.
所以这跨越了时间、几代人，因为上帝告诉亚伯拉罕，如果他走上冒险之路，他将成为万国之父。
So what that means is that he'll establish the pattern of paternal conduct that will maximize the success of his offspring in the longest possible run.
所以这意味着他将建立一种父亲的行为模式，使他的后代在尽可能长的时间内取得最大的成功。
That's so cool.
太酷了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This is success at a distance-
这就是远距离的成功——
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and over time.
随着时间的推移。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Exactly, and then the final offer is you'll do that in a way that'll bring abundance to everyone else, too.
确实如此，最后的提议是，你将以一种也能为其他人带来丰富的方式做到这一点。
Now, so think about what that means biologically.
现在，想想这在生物学上意味着什么。
This is so cool, and I can't see how it can be wrong.
这太酷了，我看不出它怎么会错。
It means that if you hearken to the voice that calls you out of your zone of comfort, and you do that voluntarily, so you put yourself on the edge of adventure, you will be following the instinct that has already evolved to make your life a blessing to yourself, to make you successful among other people, to maximize your probability of long-term success, and to do that in a way that brings abundance to your community.
这意味着，如果你倾听召唤你走出舒适区的声音，并且你自愿这样做，那么你就把自己置于冒险的边缘，你将遵循已经进化的本能，让你的生活成为你自己的祝福，让你在其他人中取得成功，最大限度地提高你长期成功的可能性，并以一种为你的社区带来丰富的方式做到这一点。
And then you think, look, let's take the contrary hypothesis.
然后你想，看，让我们采取相反的假设。
The contrary hypothesis would be twofold.
相反的假设是双重的。
There is no compulsion to adventure.
没有冒险的冲动。
It's like that seems highly improbable.
这似乎是极不可能的事。
Or that the compulsion to adventure isn't aligned with psychological and social well-being.
或者说，对冒险的渴望与心理和社会福祉并不相符。
Well, what's the chance that the fundamental drive that would facilitate your transformation across time would not be aligned with your psychological integrity and the success of the community?
那么，促进你跨时间转型的根本动力与你的心理完整性和社区的成功不相符的可能性有多大？
We wouldn't be social animals if that was the case.
如果是这样的话，我们就不会成为社会动物了。
So as far as I can tell, that has to be true.
据我所知，这一定是真的。
Now, that doesn't mean you can get lost in false adventures.
现在，这并不意味着您会迷失在虚假的冒险中。
That can happen.
这可能会发生。
That's what an addiction is, or that's what pornography is.
这就是上瘾，或者说色情内容。
It's a false adventure.
这是一次虚假的冒险。
It's failure to hit the proper target, you might say.
你可能会说，这是未能达到正确的目标。
But that central drive to integration across time and communally, why wouldn't that be an instinct?
但跨越时间和社区的整合的核心驱动力，为什么不是一种本能呢？
And then we could cap that with an observation that I also think is self-evidently true once you understand it.
然后我们可以用一个观察来结束这一点，我也认为一旦你理解了它，它是不言而喻的。
So imagine that you're a father.
所以想象一下你是一位父亲。
Now, this spirit of adventure is often characterized paternally insofar as God's the father in these ancient stories.
现在，在这些古老的故事中，这种冒险精神常常被描述为父亲般的形象，因为上帝是父亲。
So think about this.
所以想想这个。
So when you see your son, now it's also true of your daughter, but I'll focus on sons for the moment.
所以，当你看到你的儿子时，现在你的女儿也是如此，但我现在将重点关注儿子。
When you see your son, and you love your son, when you see your son pushing himself beyond his own limits in an adventurous manner- If you're a good father, you definitely encourage that, right?
当你看到你的儿子，并且你爱你的儿子，当你看到你的儿子以一种冒险的方式超越自己的极限时——如果你是一个好父亲，你肯定会鼓励这样做，对吧？
And I would say insofar as you encourage that, you are a good father.
我想说，只要你鼓励这一点，你就是一个好父亲。
And that would mean that you're the embodiment of that spirit that calls to adventure.
这意味着你是冒险精神的化身。
That's why Abraham is characterized, for example, in this story as forging an alliance with the spirit of his ancestors, with the deity of his ancestors.
这就是为什么亚伯拉罕在这个故事中被描述为与他祖先的精神、他祖先的神结成联盟。
He's embodying the call to adventure, and that's what makes him the father whose reproductive enterprise is successful across the broadest possible span of time, I think.
我认为，他体现了对冒险的号召，这就是使他成为父亲的原因，他的生殖事业在尽可能广泛的时间跨度内取得了成功。
I just can't see how that can be wrong.
我只是不明白这怎么可能是错误的。
And that's a characterization of the divine.
这就是神的表征。
And it complexifies it, because what the stories are trying to do is to give you an image of what that integrating personality might be like, and it's sophisticated, so a single characterization is insufficient.
它使它变得复杂，因为故事试图做的是给你一个关于整合人格可能是什么样子的形象，而且它很复杂，所以单一的人物塑造是不够的。
So in the story of Noah, this personality is characterized quite differently.
所以在诺亚的故事中，这种性格的特征是截然不同的。
So Noah is presented as a man who's wise in his generations, which means that for his time and place, he's moral and reputable.
因此，诺亚被描绘成一个在他的世代中最有智慧的人，这意味着在他的时代和地点，他是有道德和有信誉的。
So he's the sort of guy that people would go to for advice because he's lived a life that's emblematic of his wisdom, let's say.
所以人们会向他寻求建议，因为他的生活象征着他的智慧。
Okay, now a voice comes to him and says, "Batten down the hatches there, mate.
好吧，现在有一个声音对他说：“把舱门封好，伙计。
Trouble's coming." Okay, so here's the hypothesis.
麻烦来了。”好的，这是假设。
The hypothesis is the voice that calls to the wise to prepare in times of trouble is a manifestation of the divine, and it's the same as the voice that calls the unwilling to adventure.
这个假设是，召唤智者在困难时刻做好准备的声音是神圣的体现，这与召唤不愿意冒险的声音是一样的。
That's the monotheistic hypothesis.
这就是一神论假设。
And so you can see what the imagination is doing is agglomerating these different characterizations of high aim, insisting that there's an integrated unity behind them, and then trying to conceptualize that integrated unity across time.
所以你可以看到想象力正在做的就是将这些不同的高目标特征聚集在一起，坚持认为它们背后有一个完整的统一体，然后尝试将这种跨时间的统一统一概念化。
And I think that's done with radical success in the biblical library, that the culmination of the library of stories is the impressionistic representation of this integrating pattern.
我认为这在圣经图书馆中取得了巨大的成功，故事图书馆的顶峰是这种整合模式的印象派表现。
And I think that's what people call on when they're engaging in a religious enterprise that is radically successful, like that happened in the case of your friend.
我认为这就是人们在从事一项非常成功的宗教事业时所呼吁的，就像你朋友的例子一样。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Right?
对吗？
So he got a new personality, and that new personality had different incentive structure, and so that just superseded the addiction.
所以他有了一个新的人格，这个新的人格有不同的激励结构，所以这就取代了成瘾。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I realize that for people listening, it might not seem like this, but to us, his friends, who had seen him try so hard in the context of people he truly, deeply cares about, more than anybody in the world, his children, his wife.
我意识到，对于倾听的人来说，情况可能并非如此，但对于我们，他的朋友来说，我们看到他在他真正、深深关心的人的背景下如此努力，比世界上任何人、他的孩子、他的妻子都更关心。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It was almost like he got a brain transplant.
这几乎就像他接受了大脑移植手术一样。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It was astonishing.
真是令人惊讶。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
How does he account for it?
他如何解释呢？
If you asked him, "Okay, you had every reason to change and yet you didn't, and then all of a sudden you did." How does he understand that?
如果你问他：“好吧，你有充分的理由去改变，但你没有，然后突然间你就改变了。”他怎么理解这一点？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
He uses very Christian religious language.
他使用非常基督教的宗教语言。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
He said that he felt Jesus' love for him-
他说他感受到耶稣对他的爱——
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and he saw an image of who he could become.
他看到了自己可以成为什么样的人的形象。
This was important perhaps.
这也许很重要。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No doubt.
毫无疑问。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Not just perhaps, but no doubt, of who he could become.
不仅是也许，而且毫无疑问，他会成为什么样的人。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
And that was worth it.
这是值得的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And he had the adequate social support within this place, and so there was reinforcement.
而且他在这个地方有足够的社会支持，所以有强化。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But what's remarkable is that he was able to take that outside of this place.
但值得注意的是，他能够将其带出这个地方。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Right.
对。
Definitely.
确实。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It was a residential facility.
这是一个住宅设施。
Out of this place-
离开这个地方——
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
And carry it with him
并随身携带
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
And to this day, he is rock solid.
直到今天，他仍然坚如磐石。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Okay, so there's-
好吧，所以有——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In that domain, and I will say in all the other domains of his life, too, extremely successful as an artist.
在这个领域，我想说的是，在他一生的所有其他领域，作为一名艺术家，他都非常成功。
I don't want to out him.
我不想把他赶出去。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Extremely successful as a commercial artist, and happy, and in service, and just seems like he got a brain transplant.
作为一名商业艺术家非常成功，并且快乐，并且在服务中，而且他似乎接受了大脑移植。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Right.
对。
So there's a mystery there that's kind of threefold.
所以这里存在一个三重之谜。
One is, what the hell did he mean that he realized that Jesus Christ loved him, right?
一是，他意识到耶稣基督爱他到底是什么意思，对吧？
That's okay, what do you mean by that?
没关系，你这是什么意思？
And then somehow that's associated with the vision he developed of who he could be-
然后不知怎的，这与他对自己可能成为的人的愿景有关——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
...
...
if he was everything he could be.
如果他能做到他能做到的一切就好了。
There's a relationship between those two things.
这两件事之间是有关系的。
And then there's this third mystery is the culmination of those two phenomena, freedom of his addiction, even out of the context of the center.
然后第三个谜团是这两种现象的顶峰，他的毒瘾的自由，甚至脱离了中心的背景。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's right.
没错。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Very difficult to understand that.
很难理解这一点。
But we know, think about it this way.
但我们知道，这样想一下。
If you're possessed by rage, different phenomena have dopaminergic cachet to you than if you're possessed by sexual desire.
如果你被愤怒所占据，与你被性欲占据时相比，不同的现象会对你产生多巴胺能的影响。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Like, obviously, right?
就像，显然，对吧？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Right.
对。
So the idea that a given stimuli produces a given motivational response is incorrect because that's framework dependent, right?
因此，给定的刺激会产生给定的动机反应的想法是不正确的，因为这是依赖于框架的，对吧？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
So I think one of the best ways to understand a motivational drive is that a motivational drive grips the target.
所以我认为理解动机的最好方法之一就是动机驱动抓住目标。
It establishes the target, right?
它确立了目标，对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
And it may increase the probability that certain action patterns will make themselves manifest.
它可能会增加某些行为模式显现出来的可能性。
That would be the compulsive element.
这将是强迫性的因素。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
But fundamentally, what it's doing is changing the target.
但从根本上来说，它所做的是改变目标。
That rearranges the perceptual landscape, and it transforms the emotions.
这重新排列了感知景观，并改变了情感。
Because now, if your target is there, things that lead you there are dopaminergically relevant.
因为现在，如果你的目标在那里，引导你到达那里的事物就与多巴胺能相关。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's right.
没错。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
If your target is there, things that lead you there are relevant.
如果你的目标在那里，那么引导你到达那里的事情就是相关的。
Same underlying emotion, but the stimuli, so to speak, that give rise to the emotion are radically different.
相同的潜在情绪，但是可以说，引起情绪的刺激却截然不同。
So now he has a different orientation and aim, and so the incentive structure of his psyche is radically transformed.
所以现在他有了不同的方向和目标，因此他的心理激励结构也发生了根本性的转变。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
That's right.
这是正确的。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Now, we know that can happen because that happens to you when you move from one motivated state to another.
现在，我们知道这种情况可能会发生，因为当您从一种积极状态转变为另一种积极状态时，这种情况就会发生在您身上。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think in 12-step programs, they allow the steps to be milestones.
我认为在 12 步计划中，他们让这些步骤成为里程碑。
I mean, there's clearly a dopaminergic component.
我的意思是，显然存在多巴胺能成分。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I hope people understand that dopamine is dumb.
我希望人们明白多巴胺是愚蠢的。
In fact, dopamine isn't dumb.
事实上，多巴胺并不愚蠢。
Dopamine has no intelligence at all.
多巴胺根本没有智力。
It's just a currency of motivation and reward.
它只是一种激励和奖励的货币。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And what-
还有什么-
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Which is why it can be gained by cocaine.
这就是为什么它可以通过可卡因获得。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Which is why it can be gained by cocaine or most anything that can ferret its way into the hypothalamic system.
这就是为什么它可以通过可卡因或大多数可以进入下丘脑系统的东西来获得。
And I hope people picked up on what you said before, because it's so important that as one moves toward a target, dopamine increases en route to that target.
我希望人们能够理解你之前所说的，因为当一个人朝着一个目标前进时，多巴胺在实现该目标的过程中会增加，这一点非常重要。
I'm rephrasing what you said before.
我重新表述一下你之前说的话。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You said it wonderfully.
你说得太棒了。
I just want to make sure people understand that as that dopamine increases, the probability that your perception will go to something other than the target decreases exponentially.
我只是想让人们明白，随着多巴胺的增加，你的感知转向目标以外的事物的可能性会呈指数下降。
As you get closer and closer, you get more and more dopamine.
随着距离越来越近，你获得的多巴胺也越来越多。
The greater the elevation in dopamine, the lower the probability that you'll engage in any other pattern of self.
多巴胺水平越高，你从事任何其他自我模式的可能性就越低。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's like it's almost, or a personality type other than the one that you're engaged in, in pursuit of this behavior will emerge.
就好像它几乎，或者除了你所从事的性格类型之外的一种性格类型，在追求这种行为时将会出现。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Right.
对。
Not least because as you approach successfully, the probability of ultimate success is obviously increasing.
尤其是因为当你成功接近时，最终成功的可能性明显增加。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
So it makes perfect sense that you would-
所以这是完全有道理的，你会-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right
右
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
...
...
narrow and focus.
缩小范围并集中注意力。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
You run faster as you see the finish line.
当你看到终点线时，你跑得更快。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Faster and faster.
越来越快。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This concept of sin as missing the target-
这种罪恶的概念就是没有达到目标——
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
or this definition of sin, I think is incredibly important.
或罪的定义，我认为非常重要。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Hamartia is the Greek word, and it's literally an archery term, but the word for sin in ancient Hebrew is also an archery term.
Hamartia 是希腊语，字面意思是射箭术语，但古希伯来语中表示“罪”的词也是射箭术语。
And there's other languages where that's the case, but it's really important to understand that notion is predicated on this target-seeking psychophysiology, and that's unbelievably deeply built into us, as you pointed out.
还有其他语言也存在这种情况，但真正重要的是要理解这一概念是基于这种寻求目标的心理生理学，并且正如您所指出的，这令人难以置信地深深植根于我们之中。
Our eyes are target established.
我们的眼睛是既定的目标。
Well, it's so important to us that we infer aim from gaze.
嗯，这对我们来说非常重要，我们可以通过凝视来推断目标。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Right?
对吗？
And it's more than that.
不仅如此。
Not only do we infer aim from gaze, we mimic the psychophysiological state of the target that we're watching as a consequence of our inference of aim from gaze.
我们不仅从凝视推断目标，而且还模仿我们所观察的目标的心理生理状态，这是我们从凝视推断目标的结果。
So if I can see what you're looking at, then I can occupy the same psychophysiological state that you do, and that's the basis of my understanding.
因此，如果我能看到你正在看的东西，那么我就可以处于与你相同的心理生理状态，这就是我理解的基础。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, this is so important, and there's something that I've never talked about on this or any other podcast, which is that in humans, we have a massive expansion of an area of the frontal cortex called the frontal eye fields.
哦，这太重要了，有件事我从未在这个或任何其他播客中谈论过，那就是在人类中，我们的额叶皮层区域（称为额叶眼区）有巨大的扩展。
So there's circuitry deep in the brain, if you want to look it up, it's superior colliculus, it's also called the tectum in other species.
所以大脑深处有一个电路，如果你想查的话，它是上丘，在其他物种中也称为顶盖。
It means roof, it's the roof of the midbrain, et cetera, that generate reflexive eye movements.
它的意思是屋顶，它是中脑的屋顶，等等，产生反射性眼球运动。
You stimulate in there, it's like a machine.
你在那里刺激，它就像一台机器。
In fact, a colleague of mine who's now retired at Stanford, Eric Knudsen, who did some beautiful work on neuroplasticity, was describing an experiment where they take out the frontal cortex of these owls.
事实上，我的一位现已在斯坦福大学退休的同事埃里克·努森（Eric Knudsen）在神经可塑性方面做了一些出色的工作，他正在描述一项实验，他们取出了这些猫头鹰的额叶皮层。
Owls, because they don't have much eye movements, they move their head almost all the way around, right?
猫头鹰，因为它们没有太多的眼球运动，所以它们的头几乎一直在移动，对吗？
We've all seen that.
我们都看到了。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And they use this for homing in on their targets.
他们用它来追踪目标。
The owl or a monkey or a human, in the absence of a prefrontal cortex or suppression of prefrontal cortex, becomes like a machine.
猫头鹰、猴子或人类，在没有前额叶皮层或前额叶皮层受到抑制的情况下，就会变得像一台机器。
You click here, they look there.
你点击这里，他们就看那里。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You click here, they look there.
你点击这里，他们就看那里。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Puppies are like this.
小狗都是这样的。
Kittens are like this.
小猫都是这样的。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Everything's a stimulus.
一切都是刺激。
Why?
为什么？
Because there isn't that top-down inhibition of those reflexes.
因为这些反射不存在自上而下的抑制。
In humans, we have an area-
在人类中，我们有一个区域——
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
That's why a cat with no brain is hyper exploratory, right?
这就是为什么没有大脑的猫具有超强的探索能力，对吧？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Everything's a target.
一切都是目标。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Everything's a target.
一切都是目标。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Everything's a target.
一切都是目标。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Everything is a target.
一切都是目标。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And there's no context-dependent learning.
而且不存在依赖于情境的学习。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
I love that you gave the example of the decerebrate cats.
我喜欢你举的去大脑猫的例子。
They even can do fictive motion.
他们甚至可以做虚构的动作。
They can walk on a treadmill, and it's like with no cortex.
他们可以在跑步机上行走，就像没有皮质一样。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Right.
正确的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's amazing.
太棒了。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
It is amazing.
太神奇了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Makes you rethink the cortex.
让你重新思考皮质。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah, that's for sure.
是的，这是肯定的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And humans have these frontal eye fields, which are an evolved area.
人类有这些额眼区域，这是一个进化的区域。
They're present in other species too, but they're massively expanded in humans.
它们也存在于其他物种中，但它们在人类中大量繁殖。
So this is a cortical area, a frontal cortical area devoted to controlling gaze and the context and control of gaze.
所以这是一个皮质区域，一个专门负责控制凝视以及凝视的背景和控制的额叶皮质区域。
So it no longer becomes just a reflex that you can suppress, as in the case with an adult cat versus a kitten or a dog versus a puppy.
因此，它不再只是一种可以抑制的反射，就像成年猫与小猫或狗与小狗的情况一样。
The frontal eye fields actually regulate all sorts of context-dependent like, oh, like he's looking at me directly.
额眼区域实际上调节各种依赖于上下文的信息，就像，哦，就像他直接看着我一样。
Is it aggressive?
具有攻击性吗？
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, then maybe I'll activate my aggression, or maybe I'll brace my defenses, or, wow, we came to this party together, but she seems super interested in directing her gaze.
好吧，那么也许我会激活我的攻击性，或者也许我会加强我的防御，或者，哇，我们一起来这个聚会，但她似乎对引导她的目光非常感兴趣。
How are we inferring this?
我们如何推断这一点？
Sometimes it's body language, sometimes it's this, sometimes he looked at her.
有时是肢体语言，有时是这个，有时是他看着她。
There are all these memes about this, right?
有很多关于这个的模因，对吧？
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The famous look over the shoulder meme that seems to have taken over the internet from time to time.
著名的“回头看模因”似乎时不时地席卷互联网。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yes, with the appropriate facial response.
是的，有适当的面部反应。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Exactly.
确切地。
So humans have a massively expanded notion of what gaze is and our ability to control gaze and understanding of gaze.
So humans have a massively expanded notion of what gaze is and our ability to control gaze and understanding of gaze.
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So when you raise this idea, that when you raise this fact rather, about gaze defining the target, and that looking at others' gaze allows us to understand what they are defining as the target, we're starting to get into notions of theory of mind and things of that sort.
因此，当你提出这个想法时，当你提出这个事实时，关于凝视定义目标，并且看着别人的凝视使我们能够理解他们将什么定义为目标，我们开始进入心理理论和诸如此类的概念。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Well, so what that implies, in keeping with our previous conversation, is that as you mature and your cortex integrates and you become cortically dominant, the targets of your gaze become voluntary.
嗯，这意味着，与我们之前的谈话一致，随着你的成熟，你的皮质整合，你变得皮质占主导地位，你凝视的目标变得自愿。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Right.
对。
This is a big deal because it means that you can concentrate on the distal, let's say, the temporally distal at the expense of the proximal.
This is a big deal because it means that you can concentrate on the distal, let's say, the temporally distal at the expense of the proximal.
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
So, if you're walking down the street and you hear a loud and sudden noise behind you, you'll do an anti-predator crouch and then turn, and you'll do that essentially automatically.
所以，如果你走在街上，突然听到身后传来巨大的噪音，你会做一个反捕食者蹲下，然后转身，你基本上会自动做到这一点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So curl up.
所以蜷缩起来。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah, and then turn.
是的，然后转。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Like turtle up and then look.
就像乌龟起来然后看。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
And you turn to the place where your stereoscopic audition has indicated that the noise emanated from.
And you turn to the place where your stereoscopic audition has indicated that the noise emanated from.
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Right?
对吗？
And that's automatic.
这是自动的。
That's the control of the eye gaze and bodily posture by those underlying-
That's the control of the eye gaze and bodily posture by those underlying-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, this is the superior colliculus.
是的，这就是上丘。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
That's-
那是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Has a map of auditory world.
拥有听觉世界地图。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So when you hear something to your right, you turn to your right.
So when you hear something to your right, you turn to your right.
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Right.
对。
And you do that before you think.
你会在你思考之前就这样做。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Right.
对。
Okay, so that's an activation of the eye fields, let's say, by these underlying motivational systems that have this personality-like autonomy.
Okay, so that's an activation of the eye fields, let's say, by these underlying motivational systems that have this personality-like autonomy.
But you can orient your Part of the religious enterprise is to orient your eyes heavenward.
但你可以调整你的方向 宗教事业的一部分就是把你的眼睛转向天堂。
Well, what does that mean?
嗯，这是什么意思？
Well, you can think about it.
嗯，你可以考虑一下。
It means to search out the North Star that navigates for you unerringly, regardless of the situation at hand.
这意味着无论眼前的情况如何，都要找到为您准确导航的北极星。
Imagine you could progress towards a target in a manner that made all the potential targets that you could progress toward more likely.
Imagine you could progress towards a target in a manner that made all the potential targets that you could progress toward more likely.
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
That's a meta target.
这是一个元目标。
You said that's what happened to your friend, right?
You said that's what happened to your friend, right?
Is not only did he dispense with his addiction, but all of the other enterprises that he was pursuing in his life became more effective.
他不仅戒掉了毒瘾，而且他一生中追求的所有其他事业都变得更加有效。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's almost like, it is as if every goal was elevated.
It's almost like, it is as if every goal was elevated.
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it's funny because for the first couple of months that I was interacting with him, I thought-
这很有趣，因为在我与他互动的头几个月里，我想——
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Okay
好的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
like, "He's different."
就像，“他与众不同。”
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I thought, like most people would, perhaps would think like, "All right.
And I thought, like most people would, perhaps would think like, "All right.
Let's see." But this has been four years now.
让我们看看。”但这已经过去四年了。
He's very consistent with his program.
他非常符合他的计划。
He's involved in a program that keeps him on track.
He's involved in a program that keeps him on track.
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But he's elevated.
但他已经提升了。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And he's not talking above people.
他并没有在人们之上说话。
It's like he's elevated, but he's grounded.
就好像他高高在上，但又脚踏实地。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
When you talk to him, he's not kind of off some other place.
当你和他交谈时，他并没有离开其他地方。
He's actually very present.
他实际上非常在场。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And even his text messages are very much of like, "What's going on today?" Asking questions that are very much of the now.
甚至他的短信也很像“今天发生什么事了？”提出的问题都是当下的问题。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it's been a remarkable thing to observe.
这是一件值得注意的事情。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Well, so-
嗯，所以——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because he was about as down in his addiction, and had so much to lose, and had essentially risked it over and over to the point where I didn't think he was ever going to-
因为他已经陷入了毒瘾，并且失去了很多东西，并且基本上一次又一次地冒着风险，以至于我认为他永远不会-
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
turn around.
转身。
And all of his friends thought the same.
他所有的朋友也这么想。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And his wife, of course, is delighted, and his kids are delighted.
当然，他的妻子很高兴，他的孩子们也很高兴。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Of course.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And, I can say this without revealing because no one knows, I'm godfather to his son, and his son is thriving, which is wonderful to see.
而且，我可以在不透露的情况下说出这一点，因为没有人知道，我是他儿子的教父，他的儿子正在茁壮成长，这是很高兴看到的。
And I just think of sometimes about how badly it could have gone the other way.
有时我会想，如果事情走向相反的话，会有多糟糕。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it's fantastic.
这太棒了。
It's nothing short of spectacular.
这真是太壮观了。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Okay.
好的。
So let me put that into a context of, let's say, an archetypal story.
因此，让我将其置于一个典型故事的背景中。
Okay.
好的。
So I did a course for Peterson Academy on the Sermon on the Mount.
所以我为彼得森学院开设了登山宝训课程。
And the Sermon on the Mount is a meta goal strategy.
登山宝训是一个元目标策略。
It's very practical.
非常实用。
It's very practical.
非常实用。
And it emerges out of the biblical tradition in a very grounded manner.
And it emerges out of the biblical tradition in a very grounded manner.
It's a logical extension of the biblical ethical precursors.
这是圣经道德先驱的逻辑延伸。
So what Christ says to his followers in the course of the Sermon on the Mount is, first, orient your eyes upward.
因此，基督在登山宝训中对他的追随者说的是，首先，把你的眼睛向上看。
Okay, so that's in alignment with the notion that the firstborn is to be consecrated to God.
好吧，这与长子要奉献给上帝的观念是一致的。
There's a meaning to that, and the meaning is something like this.
这是有一定意义的，而这个意义就是这样的。
Imagine that your life consists of a sequence of episodes.
想象一下，您的生活由一系列片段组成。
Okay?
好的？
An episode has a beginning, and a middle, and an end.
一个情节有开头、中间和结尾。
The beginning sets the frame for the episode.
开头就奠定了这一集的框架。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
So at the beginning of an enterprise, you want to lift your eyes heavenward so you establish the highest possible goal so that that constitutes the frame of perception for that episode.
所以在创业之初，你要把目光投向天空，这样你就可以建立尽可能高的目标，从而构成该事件的感知框架。
That's the idea.
就是这个想法。
That's why the firstborn should be consecrated to God.
这就是为什么长子应该奉献给上帝。
So for example, to think about it prosaically, before we sat down for our podcast, because we've done many podcasts, we strive to inhabit the framework that will make the podcast most radically successful.
例如，在我们坐下来听播客之前，简单地考虑一下，因为我们已经制作了很多播客，所以我们努力占据一个框架，使播客取得最大的成功。
Now, you could imagine that that could be subordinated to either of our proximal desire for an increase in short-term personal fame, right?
现在，你可以想象这可能服从于我们对短期个人名誉的增加的最直接的渴望，对吧？
Or we could try to dominate each other in the conversation.
或者我们可以尝试在谈话中主导对方。
Or we could orient ourselves properly, and we could do what we could to pursue the track towards revelation, so to speak.
或者说，我们可以正确定位自己，尽我们所能去追求通往启示的轨道。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
And we could elevate our conversation in that manner.
我们可以通过这种方式提升我们的对话水平。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Okay.
好的。
And that would set the frame for the conversation.
这将为对话奠定基础。
And the good podcasters always do that, right?
优秀的播客总是这样做，对吧？
They're not playing games.
他们不是在玩游戏。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Or if they're playing games, it's of the highest possible order.
或者，如果他们在玩游戏，那也是最高级别的游戏。
It's a quest.
这是一个追求。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Okay.
好的。
Quest for what?
追寻什么？
Enlightenment.
启示。
For truth, right?
为了真理，对吗？
For mutual understanding, and then maybe for the education of those who are participating.
为了相互理解，然后也许是为了对参与者进行教育。
All right.
好的。
So Christ says, "First, orient your eyes upward." Right?
所以基督说：“首先，把你的眼睛向上看。”正确的？
That's to love God above all.
那就是爱神胜过一切。
So whatever that upward divinity is, you establish an allegiance with that, and you allow that to determine your perceptions and your motivations.
因此，无论向上的神性是什么，你都会与之建立忠诚，并让它决定你的看法和动机。
Next, operate under the assumption that other people like you participate in that nature of that utmost aim, and treat them that way.
接下来，假设其他像你一样的人也参与了这一终极目标的本质，并以这种方式对待他们。
Next, concentrate on the moment.
接下来，专注于当下。
Right.
正确的。
And that's exactly right because when you specify your aim, the pathway makes itself manifest.
这是完全正确的，因为当你明确目标时，路径就会显现出来。
Otherwise, you could never use your senses to orient.
否则，你永远无法利用你的感官来确定方向。
You'd never get anywhere, right?
你永远不会有任何进展，对吧？
So if you aim upward to the best of your ability, then the pathway upward is what will make itself manifest in front of you.
因此，如果你竭尽全力向上目标，那么向上的道路就会在你面前显现出来。
Then you have to attend to it.
那么你就必须注意它。
And so then you get this weird perverse optimality, which is you're focused on the longest temporal scale and the highest possible elevation, and you can make most use of what's right in front of you.
因此，你会得到这种奇怪的反常最优性，即你专注于最长的时间尺度和最高的可能高度，并且你可以充分利用你面前的东西。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
And that the implication in the Sermon on the Mount is that there's no difference between that and participating in life eternal as it unfolds in the moment.
登山宝训的含义是，这与参与当下展开的永生没有区别。
And I think that seems to me to be exactly right.
我认为这在我看来是完全正确的。
It's exactly right.
这是完全正确的。
And so, I was thinking of that because you said all of your friends' endeavors had become elevated.
所以，我想到这一点是因为你说你所有朋友的努力都变得更高了。
So imagine that one problem you might want to solve is what your goals should be.
因此，想象一下您可能想要解决的一个问题就是您的目标应该是什么。
But a much deeper problem would be how do you conceptualize your goals in relationship to one another across the broadest span of time and person, so that every goal has the highest probability of succeeding?
但一个更深层次的问题是，你如何在最广泛的时间和人员范围内概念化你的目标与彼此的关系，以便每个目标都有最大的成功概率？
So that would be like the pursuit of a meta-goal.
所以这就像追求一个元目标。
I would say that's what defines the religious enterprise.
我想说这就是宗教事业的定义。
There's another variant of that, for example.
例如，还有另一种变体。
So a variant of that would be not how do you solve the problem of any given thing that terrifies you, but how do you solve the problem of the class of things that terrify you?
因此，它的一个变体不是你如何解决任何让你害怕的特定事物的问题，而是你如何解决让你害怕的那类事物的问题？
And the dragon fight mythology is the solution to that problem.
而龙争虎斗神话就是这个问题的解决方案。
So the attitude there is you adopt the stance of voluntary what?
那么你们采取的态度是自愿的立场是什么？
A voluntary approach in the face of terror, because that's the best meta-strategy, right?
面对恐怖时自愿采取的做法，因为这是最好的元策略，对吧？
And that's the strategy that works to protect you across the largest possible array of dangerous situations.
这就是能够在尽可能多的危险情况下保护您的策略。
This is what we learned as clinical psychologists with exposure therapy, right?
这就是我们作为临床心理学家通过暴露疗法学到的东西，对吧？
You find this particulars of what someone is afraid of, that turns out to be somewhat irrelevant.
你会发现某人所害怕的细节其实是无关紧要的。
You teach people to voluntarily confront what they're avoiding, and that doesn't make them less afraid.
你教人们自愿面对他们所回避的事情，但这并没有让他们减少恐惧。
It makes them more competent and braver, and that generalizes, right?
这使他们更有能力、更勇敢，这是普遍的，对吗？
And so, yeah, the religious pursuit is the pursuit of meta-goals in relationship to positive and negative emotion.
所以，是的，宗教追求是对与积极和消极情绪相关的元目标的追求。
That's a good way of thinking about it.
这是一个很好的思考方式。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd like to take a quick break and thank one of our sponsors, LMNT.
我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商之一 LMNT。
LMNT is an electrolyte drink that has everything you need and nothing you don't.
LMNT 是一种电解质饮料，拥有您需要的一切，没有您不需要的东西。
That means the electrolytes, sodium, magnesium, and potassium in the correct ratios, but no sugar.
这意味着电解质、钠、镁和钾的比例正确，但没有糖。
We should all know that proper hydration is critical for optimal brain and body function.
我们都应该知道，适当的水分对于最佳的大脑和身体功能至关重要。
In fact, even a slight degree of dehydration can diminish your cognitive and physical performance to a considerable degree.
事实上，即使是轻微程度的脱水也会在很大程度上降低您的认知和身体表现。
It's also important that you're not just hydrated, but that you get adequate amounts of electrolytes in the right ratios.
同样重要的是，您不仅要补充水分，还要以正确的比例获得足量的电解质。
Drinking a packet of LMNT dissolved in water makes it very easy to ensure that you're getting adequate amounts of hydration and electrolytes.
喝一包溶解在水中的 LMNT 可以很容易地确保您获得足够的水分和电解质。
To make sure that I'm getting proper amounts of both, I dissolve one packet of LMNT in about 16 to 32 ounces of water when I wake up in the morning, and I drink that basically first thing in the morning.
为了确保我摄入适量的两者，当我早上醒来时，我将一包 LMNT 溶解在大约 16 至 32 盎司的水中，并且我基本上早上第一件事就是喝它。
I'll also drink a packet of LMNT dissolved in water during any kind of physical exercise that I'm doing, especially on hot days when I'm sweating a lot and losing water and electrolytes.
在进行任何体育锻炼时，我还会喝一包溶解在水中的 LMNT，尤其是在炎热的日子里，当我大量出汗并失去水分和电解质时。
There are a bunch of different great-tasting flavors of LMNT.
LMNT 有多种不同的美味口味。
I like the watermelon, I like the raspberry, I like the citrus.
我喜欢西瓜，我喜欢覆盆子，我喜欢柑橘。
Basically, I like all of them.
基本上，我都喜欢。
If you'd like to try LMNT, you can go to drinklmnt.com/hubermanlab to claim a free LMNT sample pack with the purchase of any LMNT drink mix.
如果您想尝试 LMNT，可以访问 Drinklmnt.com/hubermanlab，购买任何 LMNT 混合饮料即可领取免费 LMNT 样品包。
Again, that's drinklmnt.com/hubermanlab to claim a free sample pack.
再次强调，请访问 Drinklmnt.com/hubermanlab 索取免费样品包。
I love this idea of looking upward and defining or at least having a sense that there's an internalization of the greatest possible outcome.
我喜欢这种向上看和定义的想法，或者至少有一种感觉，即最大可能的结果已经内化。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And when I say greatest-
当我说最伟大的时候——
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
both for oneself but also for the community, right?
既是为了自己，也是为了社会，不是吗？
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Yeah, that's life more abundant, or that's the symbolic terminology or life in eternity.
是的，这就是更丰盛的生命，或者这就是象征性的术语或永恒的生命。
Both of those are the same thing.
两者是同一件事。
So imagine you're fighting with your wife.
想象一下你正在和你的妻子吵架。
Okay, now you're dominated by rage.
好吧，现在你被愤怒所控制了。
Now, the advantage to that is you're ready, but the disadvantage is you're going to strive for proximal victory.
现在，这样做的好处是你已经准备好了，但缺点是你将努力争取近期的胜利。
Okay.
好的。
Now, you don't want to be a pushover.
现在，你不想成为一个容易屈服的人。
That's a mistake.
这是一个错误。
So then what could you do instead?
那么你可以做什么呢？
You could pause, and you could remember, okay, if this could rectify itself in the best possible manner, what would that look like?
你可以停下来，你可以记住，好吧，如果这能以最好的方式自我纠正，那会是什么样子？
Well, it's complicated, right?
嗯，这很复杂，对吧？
You don't want your wife to be defeated, and you don't want to be defeated, and you want to solve the problem, but you don't want to sweep it under the rug.
你不想让你的妻子被打败，你也不想被打败，你想解决问题，但你不想把它掩盖起来。
You want to solve it in a way that's solved that works across time, that benefits your relationship in an upward manner.
你想要以一种长期有效的方式来解决这个问题，这有利于你们的关系向上发展。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And you have to make sure that you're not hijacked by that hypothalamic circuit or personality as you've described.
你必须确保你没有被你所描述的下丘脑回路或个性所劫持。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
You will be.
你会的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
If you don't alter your aim, you will be.
如果你不改变你的目标，你就会改变。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Because you need to substitute.
因为你需要替代。
You got to think, "I'd really like to win this.
你必须想，“我真的很想赢得这场比赛。
I'd seriously like to win this battle." It's like, no, you need something better than that victory, and that would be a victory that would deepen and enrich your relationship and help it grow across time.
我真的很想赢得这场战斗。”就像，不，你需要比胜利更好的东西，而这将是一个能够加深和丰富你们的关系并帮助它随着时间的推移而发展的胜利。
And then you can remember that.
然后你就可以记住这一点。
It's like, I'm going to listen.
就好像，我要去听。
Even though I think my wife is wrong, I'm going to listen, and I'm going to see if I can find a pathway in the argument that makes our relationship better.
即使我认为我的妻子错了，我也会倾听，看看是否能在争论中找到一条途径，让我们的关系变得更好。
And then you think, now you have to really want that because if you really want that, if you got that vision fleshed out properly, you'll want that more than you'll want to win.
然后你想，现在你必须真的想要那个，因为如果你真的想要那个，如果你正确地充实了这个愿景，那么你会比你想要获胜更想要它。
And then you might say, "Well, why?" It's like, because it's a better deal.
然后你可能会说，“嗯，为什么？”就像，因为这是一个更好的交易。
So there's one of Christ's parables where he talks about a pearl of great price, which is the pearl that a rich man would sell everything he owns to possess.
因此，基督有一个比喻，他谈到一颗无价的珍珠，这是一个富人愿意卖掉他所有的一切来占有的珍珠。
And it's something like a reference to that.
这就像对此的引用。
It's like, why would you ever attain a proximal victory if you could attain an ultimate victory?
这就好像，如果你能获得最终的胜利，为什么还要获得近期的胜利呢？
That's the battle, let's say, between the salvation of the soul and the victory in sin.
比方说，这就是灵魂的拯救和罪的胜利之间的战斗。
That's how the religious language would portray it, where you can win a local victory, and it looks like you win.
这就是宗教语言所描述的，你可以赢得当地的胜利，而且看起来你赢了。
But if you forego the ultimate game, that's not a victory, that's a defeat.
但如果你放弃了最终的比赛，那就不是胜利，而是失败。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Obviously.
显然。
It might even be a worse defeat than if you lost.
这甚至可能是比失败更糟糕的失败。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
I've been spouting off on social media and podcasts for a while now that any big inflection in dopamine that isn't preceded by a lot of effort to generate that dopamine inflection is very dangerous.
一段时间以来，我一直在社交媒体和播客上大肆宣扬，多巴胺的任何重大变化，如果没有付出很大的努力来产生多巴胺的变化，都是非常危险的。
Think-
想想——
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Ha
哈
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
drugs, think pornography, think highly processed foods.
毒品，想想色情，想想高度加工的食品。
Think anything that-
想想任何事情——
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
creates this big sense of indulgence and pleasure without any effort is-
不费吹灰之力就能创造出这种巨大的放纵和愉悦感是——
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Okay
好的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
running countercurrent to our evolutionary wiring.
与我们的进化线路逆流而行。
Now you could say, "Well, okay, so what are we supposed to do?
现在你可以说：“好吧，那么我们应该做什么呢？
Move into caves and-"
进入洞穴然后——”
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
No reward-
没有奖励——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
...
...
no reward without commensurate sacrifice.
没有相应的牺牲就没有回报。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's right.
没错。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
That's okay.
没关系。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Of some sort.
某种程度的。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And-
还有——
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and the other issue, and it's coming up again and again today, and I love that it is, is this notion of the temporal domain, of rewards that exist over multiple timescales or broader timescales.
另一个问题，今天一次又一次地出现，我喜欢它是时域的概念，是存在于多个时间尺度或更广泛的时间尺度上的奖励的概念。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
One of the things that I feel-
我的感受之一是——
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
truly lucky for is the fact that I went the path of science where we were chuckling about this earlier.
真正幸运的是，我走上了科学之路，而我们之前对此还笑得很开心。
A project could take a year, then you have to restart because that project went nowhere.
一个项目可能需要一年的时间，然后你必须重新启动，因为该项目毫无进展。
And then you finish the project, you submit a paper, the review.
然后你完成项目，提交论文，进行评审。
The reward schedule in science ...
科学奖励表...
could take four years.
可能需要四年的时间。
It's not just about getting a degree.
这不仅仅是获得学位的问题。
Getting papers through sometimes took a year, sometimes took two years.
完成论文有时需要一年，有时需要两年。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sometimes things didn't go well, and you had to publish in a journal that you wouldn't have wanted to, or sometimes you had to abandon projects altogether.
有时事情进展不顺利，你不得不在你不想发表的期刊上发表文章，或者有时你不得不完全放弃项目。
So my reward system was trained up on lots of timescales, short, medium, long timescales.
所以我的奖励系统是在很多时间尺度上进行训练的，短的、中的、长的时间尺度。
As I've moved into podcasting, the temporal loops are shorter.
当我转向播客时，时间循环更短了。
They're faster.
他们更快。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But nonetheless, we do long-form content.
但尽管如此，我们还是制作长篇内容。
But I think platforms like X, I think are wonderful if used appropriately.
但我认为像 X 这样的平台如果使用得当的话会很棒。
I think it's especially great nowadays, frankly, and Instagram, et cetera, they're very useful.
坦白说，我认为现在特别棒，Instagram等等，它们非常有用。
But they train us, and I imagine they've trained the young brains that were weaned on them, because I wasn't, but that were weaned on them for fast temporal-
但他们训练我们，我想他们已经训练了那些在他们身上断奶的年轻大脑，因为我没有，但那些在他们身上断奶的大脑是为了快速时间-
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
timescales.
时间尺度。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
And that's a big problem.
这是一个大问题。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This isn't like playing a long poker game.
这不像玩一场长时间的扑克游戏。
This is like playing the slot machine over and over.
这就像一遍又一遍地玩老虎机。
Right?
正确的？
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's not like a four-day tournament.
这不像一场为期四天的锦标赛。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Complete with intermittent random reinforcement-
完成间歇性随机强化-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right
右
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
...
...
which is what happens when something goes viral.
这就是当某件事病毒式传播时会发生的情况。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Unpredictably.
不可预测。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Right.
对。
It's really-
真的是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then, of course, we have this notion in this country that in any moment it could be a rags to riches or overnight fame type thing.
当然，我们在这个国家有这样的观念：在任何时候，它都可能是白手起家或一夜成名之类的事情。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That exists as a possibility in our culture that in a way that it hadn't prior.
这种可能性在我们的文化中以一种前所未有的方式存在。
So I think that one of the things that could be useful, just venturing a hypothesis here, is that young and older people could take a look at their life and ask, "Over what variation of timescales do I derive reward?"
因此，我认为，在这里大胆提出一个假设，可能有用的事情之一是，年轻人和老年人可以审视他们的生活并问：“在什么样的时间尺度变化下，我可以获得奖励？”
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah, definitely.
是的，绝对是。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Training for a marathon is a longer timescale of reward endeavor.
马拉松训练是一种较长时间的奖励努力。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Well, that's also a hallmark of maturity.
嗯，这也是成熟的标志。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Right?
对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, school, a degree, et cetera.
是的，学校，学位等等。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In business, the timescales are sometimes fast, sometimes short.
在商业中，时间有时很快，有时很短。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
I think you can ask even a better question than that.
我认为你可以问一个比这更好的问题。
The better question would be, and this is what's referred to in the Sermon on the Mount, is, "How could I optimize my long-term view while maximizing my focus on the moment?"
更好的问题是，这就是登山宝训中提到的，“我怎样才能优化我的长期观点，同时最大限度地关注当下？”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Because then you get both.
因为这样你就两者兼得。
That's a really good deal, right?
这真的很划算，对吧？
Because now you're conducting yourself in a manner that works in an integrated way that's socially productive, and maybe intergenerationally socially productive.
因为现在你正在以一种综合的方式行事，这种方式具有社会生产力，甚至可能具有代际社会生产力。
That would be the best thing to establish.
这将是最好的事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
That's what you're doing as a good father.
这就是你作为一个好父亲所做的。
But you're doing that in a manner that enables you to also derive maximal impact from each step you take forward in the present.
但你这样做的方式也能让你从目前所采取的每一步中获得最大的影响。
So Karl Friston told me, we were talking about entropy and emotion.
卡尔·弗里斯顿告诉我，我们正在谈论熵和情感。
Now, I'd figured out a few years ago with a couple of my students that anxiety signifies the emergence of entropy, technically, which I was really thrilled about because it gives emotion a physical grounding, like a real physical grounding.
现在，几年前我和我的几个学生发现，从技术上讲，焦虑意味着熵的出现，我对此感到非常兴奋，因为它给情感提供了物理基础，就像真正的物理基础一样。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
And Friston surprised me because he said he has a theory of positive emotion that's analogous.
弗里斯顿让我感到惊讶，因为他说他有一个类似的积极情绪理论。
He also knew the negative emotion.
他也知道这种负面情绪。
He'd also been working in that domain.
他也一直在该领域工作。
He said that you get a dopamine kick when you reduce the entropy in relationship to a goal.
他说，当你减少与目标相关的熵时，你就会得到多巴胺的刺激。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hmm.
嗯。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
And I thought, "Oh my God, that's so cool," because it means that uncertainty is entropy.
我想，“天哪，这太酷了”，因为这意味着不确定性就是熵。
When it emerges, you get anxious.
当它出现时，你会感到焦虑。
But when you see yourself stepping towards a goal, you get a dopamine kick, and the reason that's related to entropy is because with each successful step you take towards a goal, you reduce the uncertainty of the pursuit, which is manifested in that phenomena you described, which is when you see the finish line, you start running faster.
但是当你看到自己朝着一个目标迈进时，你会得到多巴胺的刺激，而与熵相关的原因是因为你朝着目标迈出的每一步成功，你都会减少追求的不确定性，这体现在你所描述的现象中，即当你看到终点线时，你开始跑得更快。
So they're both related to entropy.
所以它们都与熵有关。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, to have goals at multiple timescales-
嗯，要在多个时间尺度上制定目标——
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Oh, yes
哦，是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
you need to be able to, I love this entropy argument, it makes total sense, that you want to be able to withstand the periods of time when you don't know-
你需要能够，我喜欢这个熵论，它完全有道理，你希望能够承受你不知道的时期-
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
whether or not things are becoming more or less uncertain.
事情是否变得越来越不确定。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah, yes.
是的，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This is part of becoming an adult, if you will.
如果你愿意的话，这是成为成年人的一部分。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yes, okay.
是的，好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
So yeah, that was exactly the thread.
是的，这就是线索。
So there's two corollaries of that.
所以有两个推论。
One is that the more valuable the goal towards which you're progressing, the higher the dopamine kick per unit of advancement.
一是你所迈向的目标越有价值，每进步一个单位所产生的多巴胺就越高。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
So what that means is you want an ultimate goal operating in the domain of each proximal sub-goal, and that's what happens with this upward orientation.
所以这意味着你想要一个在每个近端子目标范围内运作的最终目标，这就是这种向上取向所发生的情况。
It's like, what you're trying to do is to make things as good as they could be, whatever that means, over the longest possible span of time, for the largest number of people, you included.
就像，你想做的就是让事情尽可能好，无论这意味着什么，在尽可能长的时间内，为尽可能多的人，包括你在内。
Now, you're not going to know exactly how to do that, but that can be your goal.
现在，您不会确切地知道如何做到这一点，但这可能是您的目标。
Okay, now that's going to inform your perceptions, and your perception's a pathway, but it's also going to modify your reward system, because now every proximal step forward is an indicator of entropy reduction in regard to that meta goal.
好吧，现在这将告诉你的看法，你的看法是一条途径，但它也会修改你的奖励系统，因为现在每一个最近的进步都是关于该元目标的熵减少的指标。
Well, by definition, there isn't anything you can do that's more exciting than that.
嗯，根据定义，没有什么比这更令人兴奋的了。
See, that kind of explains why your friend was able to pop out of his addictive frame, because now he's doing something that's so worthwhile that the temptation of alcohol, let's say, pales in comparison.
看，这可以解释为什么你的朋友能够摆脱上瘾的框架，因为现在他正在做一些非常有价值的事情，以至于酒精的诱惑相比之下就显得相形见绌了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right, it's a rewriting of the reward contingencies.
没错，就是对奖励意外事件的重写。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Right, exactly.
对，完全正确。
And now you could imagine a situation where a culture explores across time to find out how to characterize that goal, such that if that goal is pursued, people integrate psychologically in a manner that integrates them socially across large spans of time.
现在你可以想象这样一种情况：一种文化跨越时间进行探索，以找出如何描述该目标的特征，这样，如果实现了该目标，人们就会在心理上进行整合，从而在很长的时间跨度上进行社会整合。
I think that's what happens when the monotheistic revelation emerges.
我认为这就是一神论启示出现时所发生的情况。
That's what's happening from a biological perspective, is that we're starting to characterize the longest term goal.
这就是从生物学角度来看正在发生的事情，我们开始描述长期目标。
Yeah, something like that.
是的，类似的事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This is why I believe that pornography is potentially so poisonous, because the level of uncertainty is basically zero.
这就是为什么我相信色情内容具有潜在的毒性，因为不确定性水平基本上为零。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
People can access what they want to see.
人们可以访问他们想看到的内容。
They can keep foraging until they find it.
他们可以继续觅食，直到找到为止。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And that's not the way that relationships work.
这不是人际关系的运作方式。
The way relationships work is I ask somebody out, they might say yes, they might say no.
人际关系的运作方式是我约某人出去，他们可能会说是，他们可能会说不。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You go out on a date, they might not want a second date.
你出去约会，他们可能不想第二次约会。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Well, and that's all very-
嗯，这一切都非常-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Things could progress that you might think that you're on the path to one thing, and it turns out it doesn't work, or you're not compatible.
事情可能会进展到你可能认为你正在做一件事，但事实证明它行不通，或者你们不兼容。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
And that's also extremely salutary.
这也是非常有益的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Because if you're being rejected, say you're a foraging male and you're being rejected all the time, and you forego that for pornography, what you're forgoing is the corrective that all those women are offering you.
因为如果你被拒绝了，假设你是一个觅食的男性，并且你一直被拒绝，而你放弃了色情内容，那么你放弃的就是所有这些女人为你提供的纠正。
They're rejecting you because there is something wrong.
他们拒绝你是因为有什么问题。
Seriously, there's something wrong.
说真的，有什么问题。
And now you escape from that.
现在你逃避了。
You think, "Well, that's a relief because no more rejection." It's like, yeah, no more rejection, no more learning, no more improvement, and no possibility of an actual life, right?
你会想，“好吧，这真是一种解脱，因为不再被拒绝了。”就像，是的，不再有拒绝，不再有学习，不再有进步，也不再有现实生活的可能性，对吧？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No action at a distance.
远距离无动作。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
No distal-
无远端-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right
右
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
...
...
accomplishment.
成就。
Right?
正确的？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
The only implication of the pornography masturbation scenario is more pornography masturbation.
色情手淫场景的唯一含义是更多的色情手淫。
That's the only implication of it.
这是它的唯一含义。
That's all that possibly could arise.
这就是所有可能出现的情况。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
It's worse than that.
比那更糟糕。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Because it's more pornography in a degenerating game, because, as you said, you have to chase that novelty edge.
因为它在一个堕落的游戏中更加色情，因为正如你所说，你必须追逐新奇的边缘。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Otherwise, dopamine is driven down further.
否则，多巴胺会进一步下降。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Well, and that means what?
嗯，这意味着什么？
It's going to get more and more extreme?
会变得越来越极端吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
That's-
那是——
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Well, that's not a good scenario.
嗯，这不是一个好的场景。
What do you mean more and more extreme, exactly?
越来越极端到底是什么意思？
Where does that end?
那到哪里结束呢？
Well, a casual glance at online pornography can give you some real insight into where that ends.
嗯，随意浏览一下在线色情内容可以让您真正了解其结局。
That's a bottomless pit, and in the most pernicious possible manner, because sexuality can definitely twist itself into pathological forms that undermine psychological integrity and demolish society.
这是一个无底洞，而且是以最有害的方式，因为性绝对可以将自己扭曲成病理形式，破坏心理完整性并摧毁社会。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We see this with people who are highly successful, who seem to have lots of areas of their life regulated, and then they collapse their lives.
我们在那些非常成功的人身上看到了这一点，他们似乎生活中的很多领域都受到了监管，然后他们的生活就崩溃了。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah, right.
是的，对。
Very common.
很常见。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And we sometimes see it with drugs of abuse as well.
有时我们也会在滥用药物中看到这种现象。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Although, unless those drugs of abuse are dopaminergic and people have them in check, so to speak, which is exceedingly rare-
虽然，除非那些滥用的药物具有多巴胺能，并且人们可以控制它们，可以这么说，这是极其罕见的——
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
it's usually just a matter of time, and they don't reach the mountaintop.
通常这只是时间问题，他们不会到达山顶。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yes, well, time is the problem-
是的，好吧，时间是问题——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Time is the problem
时间是问题
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
...
...
as we've been pointing out.
正如我们一直指出的那样。
Let me tell you another story.
让我告诉你另一个故事。
This is from Revelation.
这是出自《启示录》。
So Revelation is a vision of the end of time.
所以启示录是一个关于时间终结的异象。
Okay, now time ends all the time.
好吧，现在时间已经结束了。
Our adventures end, our lives end, our relationships end.
我们的冒险结束了，我们的生命结束了，我们的关系结束了。
So the end has a pattern.
所以结局是有模式的。
Okay.
好的。
Revelation is a vision of the eternal pattern of the end.
启示录是关于终结的永恒模式的异象。
So here's an element of the vision.
这是愿景的一个要素。
It's so remarkable.
真是太了不起了。
I figured this out with my friend, Jonathan Pageau.
我和我的朋友乔纳森·佩高（Jonathan Pageau）一起解决了这个问题。
So there's a sub-vision in the sequential dream of Revelation, of the scarlet beast and the whore of Babylon, and it's very relevant to our discussion on pornography.
因此，在《启示录》的连续梦中，有一个关于猩红兽和巴比伦妓女的次异象，这与我们对色情的讨论非常相关。
You'll understand it right away.
你马上就会明白。
So it's a vision of how society disintegrates.
所以这是社会如何瓦解的愿景。
Okay, now imagine when society disintegrates, men disintegrate according to their pattern, and women disintegrate according to their pattern.
好吧，现在想象一下，当社会解体时，男人按照他们的模式解体，女人按照他们的模式解体。
That makes perfect sense, right?
这很有道理，对吧？
Because if society disintegrates, it's going to be men and women who disintegrate.
因为如果社会解体，解体的将是男人和女人。
There's no reason to assume that their pattern of disintegration would be identical.
没有理由假设它们的解体模式是相同的。
Okay.
好的。
Scarlet beast, that's the scarlet beast of the state.
赤兽，那是国家的赤兽。
That's Babylon, let's say.
比方说，那是巴比伦。
That's the degenerate, tyrannical state.
这就是堕落、专制的状态。
It has multiple heads.
它有多个头。
Why?
为什么？
Because whatever united it has vanished.
因为无论它联合起来什么，都已经消失了。
That's like the death of God.
这就像上帝的死亡。
It's vanished.
它消失了。
And so now it's got heads in every direction, so it's confused.
所以现在它在各个方向都有头，所以它很混乱。
And it's red, scarlet, because that confusion, that disintegration, is the precursor to the river of blood, right?
而且它是红色的、猩红色的，因为那种混乱、那种崩溃，就是血河的前兆，对吗？
The Red Sea, the swamp of chaos.
红海，混乱的沼泽。
So when the patriarchal state disintegrates, it loses its unity, and then it's multiple heads, right?
那么当宗法国家解体时，它就失去了统一性，然后就是多个头了，对吗？
And that's the emblem of descent into diverse chaos.
这就是陷入各种混乱的象征。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And gaze is everywhere-
目光无处不在——
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Exactly
正是如此
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
with these multiple heads.
有了这些多个头。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Precisely.
正是如此。
It's not integrated.
它没有集成。
Okay.
好的。
Now, that's the disintegration of the patriarchy, you might say.
你可能会说，这就是父权制的瓦解。
Atop that is the whore of Babylon.
上面是巴比伦的妓女。
That's a beautiful woman who's subordinated her psyche to the demands of sexuality.
这是一个美丽的女人，她的心灵服从于性的要求。
She's the mother of all prostitutes, right?
她是所有妓女的母亲，对吗？
So she's extremely attractive, and she's clad in gold, and she holds a cup, it's very graphic imagery, that has nothing but the consequences of her fornication in it.
所以她非常有吸引力，她穿着金色的衣服，她拿着一个杯子，这是非常生动的图像，除了她通奸的后果之外什么也没有。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I guess I will just say it.
我想我就这么说吧。
Recently, there's been a number of posts on X of this woman who had sex with 100 men in a day.
最近，X上出现了很多关于这名女子一天与100名男子发生性关系的帖子。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Hmm.
嗯。
Right.
正确的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And now she's saying she's going to have sex with 1,000 men in a day.
现在她说她要在一天内与 1,000 个男人发生性关系。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Well, she seems to be rethinking her plan given the emotional consequences she had to her last success.
好吧，考虑到她对上次成功所造成的情感影响，她似乎正在重新考虑她的计划。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, I must say-
是的，我必须说——
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Her mother is her finance officer.
她的母亲是她的财务官。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm speechless.
我无语了。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
That's for sure.
这是肯定的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm speechless.
我无语了。
My response to her post-100 men thing was, it was hard for me to know to what extent that was part of the whatever.
我对她的 100 年后男人的事情的回应是，我很难知道这在多大程度上是无论如何的一部分。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
The performance?
表现？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Performance.
性能。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Probably hard for whatever it was to-
可能无论做什么都很难——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Whatever it was.
不管是什么。
So it was hard for me to discern what was really going on there.
所以我很难辨别那里到底发生了什么。
I'm not a psychologist.
我不是心理学家。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But anyone who saw that would say, "This is a pretty dark situation."
但任何看到这一情况的人都会说：“这是一个非常黑暗的情况。”
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
It's way darker than anybody who wanted to hold onto their sanity would possibly imagine.
它比任何想要保持理智的人想象的都要黑暗得多。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What's also dark, and I'm not saying this from a place of moral judgment, I'm just saying this from a place of just kind of like a, wow, this woman obviously navigating life in this way, her choice, clearly.
这也是黑暗的，我并不是从道德判断的角度说这句话，我只是从一个类似的地方说这句话，哇，这个女人显然以这种方式、她的选择，清楚地引导着生活。
But the fact that so many people know about this.
但事实是很多人都知道这件事。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And here we're talking about it, but I think in service to a greater good, I certainly believe.
我们在这里谈论它，但我认为是为了更大的利益，我当然相信。
That this is now- Out there.
这就是现在——就在那里。
It's out there.
它就在那里。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Just like seeing somebody-
就像见到一个人一样——
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Pushing the envelope
挑战极限
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
just like seeing somebody murder somebody in cold blood.
就像看到有人冷血地谋杀别人一样。
We could talk about that-
我们可以谈谈这个——
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
That's right
没错
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
recently, a video of an assassination that, and those had been available before, but those two things kind of leveled up or leveled down you know?
最近，一段暗杀视频，这些视频之前就已经发布过，但是这两件事有点升级或降级，你知道吗？
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
One's idea of what humans are capable of by allowing so many people-
一个人对人类通过允许这么多人能够做什么的想法-
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
And what's acceptable.
以及什么是可以接受的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What's acceptable.
什么是可以接受的。
It's-
这是——
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Or desirable.
或令人向往。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's right.
没错。
The threshold shifted.
门槛发生了变化。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
That's for sure.
这是肯定的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Maybe that's what I'm looking with, the threshold shifted.
也许这就是我正在寻找的，门槛发生了变化。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Okay, so that's a great example, that young woman who's betrayed herself in the deepest possible manner, and all of the people that are following her, and all the young women who are influenced by her.
好吧，这是一个很好的例子，那个以最深层次的方式背叛了自己的年轻女性，以及所有追随她的人，以及所有受她影响的年轻女性。
So you have this figure on the back of the degenerate state, that's the degenerate feminine.
所以你在堕落状态的背面有这个数字，那就是堕落的女性。
Female sexuality commoditizes when the masculine state degenerates.
当男性状态退化时，女性性行为就会商品化。
That's a sign of the end of things, and that makes perfect sense because, well, why wouldn't female sexuality commoditize when the masculine is no longer reliable?
这是事物终结的标志，这是完全有道理的，因为，当男性不再可靠时，为什么女性性行为不商品化呢？
It's exactly what you'd expect.
这正是您所期望的。
You know how the story ends?
你知道故事的结局吗？
There's another element to it.
还有另一个因素。
The degenerate state offers the whore of Babylon as enticement for its degeneration.
堕落的国家提供巴比伦的妓女作为其堕落的诱惑。
You can have everything you want on the sexual side.
在性方面你可以拥有你想要的一切。
At the end of that sub-story, the state, the beast, kills the prostitute.
在这个子故事的结尾，国家、野兽杀死了妓女。
And so what that means is that the long-term consequences of sacrificeless sexual satiety is that sexuality itself is destroyed, and I think we're seeing that in our society now.
所以这意味着，无牺牲的性满足的长期后果是性本身被破坏，我认为我们现在在我们的社会中看到了这一点。
30% of Japanese under the age of 30 are virgins.
30岁以下的日本人中有30%是处女。
It's about the same in South Korea.
韩国的情况也差不多。
The birth rates in those countries have plummeted, they're way below replacement.
这些国家的出生率大幅下降，远远低于更替率。
And increasingly, 50% of women in the West are childless at 30.
而且越来越多的西方女性 50% 在 30 岁时还没有孩子。
50%.
50%。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The birth rates are way down.
出生率大幅下降。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
And going down as well.
并且也在下降。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Going down.
正在下降。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
50% are childless.
50%没有孩子。
Half of them will never have a child because 30 is already pushing it, and 95% of them will regret it.
其中一半人永远不会生孩子，因为30岁已经在催促，95%的人会后悔。
We're already in a situation in the West where one in four women will be involuntarily childless.
在西方，我们已经处于这样一种情况：四分之一的女性会非自愿地失去孩子。
Well, that's a good example, as I said earlier, of how these things are characterized in this symbolic language that outlines the starkest, you might say, the starkest of biological realities.
嗯，正如我之前所说，这是一个很好的例子，说明这些事物如何用这种象征性语言来表征，这种象征性语言概述了最严酷的，你可能会说，最严酷的生物现实。
You said that there was a problem, your sense was that there was a problem with effortless gratification.
你说有问题，你的感觉是不费力的满足有问题。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
It's like, well, part of the problem with effortless gratification is it destroys itself.
就好像，毫不费力的满足的部分问题在于它会自我毁灭。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
And it's so interesting because the promise of the sexual revolution and the pill was an unlimited horizon of sexual opportunity.
这很有趣，因为性革命和避孕药的承诺是无限的性机会。
Okay.
好的。
But the actual consequence of that appears to be that that's the pathway to the demise of sexuality itself.
但其实际后果似乎是性欲本身的消亡。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This was, "If you can't be with the one you love, love the one you're with."
这就是“如果你不能和你爱的人在一起，那就去爱和你在一起的人。”
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Someone I know who was in their 20s in the 1970s explained to me, I always thought that song was about if you can't be with the person that you love, you find someone else you can love.
我认识的一个 20 多岁的 20 世纪 70 年代的人向我解释说，我一直认为这首歌是关于如果你不能和你爱的人在一起，你就会找到另一个你可以爱的人。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They explained to me that's not what that was about.
他们向我解释说这不是重点。
That was about the wildness of the '70s.
这就是 70 年代的狂野。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Right.
对。
That promise.
那个承诺。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
That was about the just promiscuity had emerged as a theme-
那是关于正义的乱交作为一个主题出现的——
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
of the 1970s.
20世纪70年代。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Yeah.
是的。
Well, in the aftermath of the birth control pill, it was not surprising that people thought maybe that was possible.
好吧，在避孕药出现后，人们认为这是可能的，这并不奇怪。
But that was wrong.
但那是错误的。
It was seriously wrong, and we're going to be dealing with the consequences of that for a very long time.
这是严重错误的，我们将在很长一段时间内处理其后果。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You said that the patriarchy, the masculine fails before the-
你说父权制、男性在-之前就失败了
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Well, no, I would say that happened-
好吧，不，我想说那件事发生了——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Before the horror
恐怖发生之前
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
No, I would say that happens in concert.
不，我想说这是一致发生的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's parallel.
是平行的。
Yeah, in concert.
是的，在音乐会上。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Sure.
当然。
It's a feedback loop.
这是一个反馈循环。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So it's not causal.
所以这不是因果关系。
One, it's-
一、它是——
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
No.
不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Men and women degenerate at the same rate.
男性和女性退化的速度相同。
We're involved in feedback processes that are so tight that there's no oppressing women without oppressing men.
我们参与的反馈过程非常严格，以至于压迫女性而不压迫男性。
There's no oppressing men without oppressing women.
不压迫女性就没有压迫男性。
It's like we're joined at the hip, so to speak.
可以这么说，我们就像是连在一起的。
And so these cultures that cloak women and silence them, you might think, well, that leads to the domination of men.
因此，这些掩盖女性并使她们沉默的文化，你可能会认为，这导致了男性的统治。
It just turns men into pathological tyrants.
它只会把男人变成病态的暴君。
There's no victory over one sex that's a victory of any sense at all.
对某一性别的胜利根本不是任何意义上的胜利。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
It's anti-humanity.
这是反人性的。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Of course.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Of course.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There was a recent post on X that just held my gaze, my attention, where it was a back-and-forth debate, a pseudo-political social debate, and then there were three words that I'll just say that Mark Andreessen said it was about restoring vigor, pride, and achievement.
最近 X 上的一篇帖子吸引了我的目光，我的注意力，这是一场来回的辩论，一场伪政治的社会辩论，然后有三个词我只想说马克·安德森说这是关于恢复活力、自豪感和成就。
And I thought, wow, he's not a political candidate, but that's a beautiful trifecta.
我想，哇，他不是政治候选人，但这是一个美丽的三连胜。
Vigor, pride, and achievement.
活力、自豪感和成就感。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
To celebrate those.
为了庆祝这些。
And I put that next to the deep pleasure in generative action at a distance.
我把它与远距离的生成性行动的深刻乐趣放在一起。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
A technological development.
技术的发展。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Well-
嗯-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The rockets.
火箭队。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And there are other generative achievements.
还有其他创造性的成就。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
I think that's exactly the theme of the story of Abraham.
我认为这正是亚伯拉罕故事的主题。
It's like the highest form of potential satiation is risky romantic adventure.
这就像潜在满足感的最高形式是冒险的浪漫冒险。
It's not satiation.
这不是饱腹感。
That's the wrong frame.
那是错误的框架。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
And so one of the things I've noticed, this is such fun, I've talked in front of, I don't know how many public audiences in the last eight years, independent of my professorial career, and those are large audiences.
所以我注意到的一件事是，这太有趣了，我在过去的八年里在不知道有多少公众观众面前讲话，与我的教授生涯无关，这些都是大量的观众。
They must average about 3,000 or 4,000 people.
他们的平均人数必须约为 3,000 或 4,000 人。
And there's one- ...
还有一个——...
place I go that always reduces the audience to dead silence.
我去的地方总是让观众陷入死一般的寂静。
The audiences are usually quiet in the events.
活动现场观众通常都很安静。
And that's one of the ways, I'm sure you know this, is you want to listen to the audience, you want to stay in that zone where no one's moving, right?
这就是其中一种方式，我相信你知道这一点，你想倾听观众的声音，你想留在那个没有人移动的区域，对吗？
Because then you know their attention is focused, and you can hear that, and you can, I wouldn't say you can play with it, not manipulatively, but in the proper sense of play.
因为这样你就知道他们的注意力是集中的，你可以听到，你可以，我不会说你可以玩它，不是操纵性的，而是以正确的游戏方式。
I learned a long while ago that adventure, let's say, is the highest form of reward.
很久以前我就知道，冒险是最高形式的奖励。
That's a good way of thinking about it.
这是一个很好的思考方式。
But there's a corollary to that, that conservatives need to learn, because they don't know this.
但这有一个推论，保守派需要学习，因为他们不知道这一点。
Conservatives talk about responsibility, but they're conscientious, and so for them, responsibility is dutiful, orderly, productivity.
保守派谈论责任，但他们是认真的，所以对他们来说，责任是尽职的、有序的、生产力的。
It's conscientiousness.
这就是良心。
Responsibility is a conscientious duty.
责任是一种认真的义务。
What they fail to understand is that there's no difference between responsibility and adventure.
他们不明白的是，责任和冒险之间没有区别。
They're the same thing.
它们是同一件事。
And you can tell young men in particular that.
你可以特别告诉年轻人这一点。
Say, "Look, you want to have an adventure, because you definitely want an adventure.
说：“听着，你想要冒险，因为你绝对想要冒险。
You're built for that.
你就是为此而生的。
It will increase your status.
它会提高你的地位。
It will improve your life.
它会改善你的生活。
It'll improve the probability that you'll accomplish something.
它会提高你完成某事的可能性。
You want an adventure.
你想要一次冒险。
Every fiber of your being is screaming for it.
你存在的每一根纤维都在尖叫着。
Where do you find it?
你在哪里找到它？
You find it in the voluntary adoption of responsibility." And that's like everyone needs to know that.
你可以在自愿承担责任的过程中找到它。”就像每个人都需要知道这一点。
No young person has been taught that for five generations.
五代人以来，没有一个年轻人接受过这样的教育。
And so-
所以——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This is important.
这很重要。
Can we operationalize this?
我们可以实施这个吗？
So in your first book, you talked about get your room in order.
所以在你的第一本书中，你谈到了整理你的房间。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
One of the first things I do when I wake up in the morning, I look around the kitchen, I look around my room, and I try and get things in order.
当我早上醒来时，我做的第一件事就是环顾厨房，环顾我的房间，并尝试让一切井井有条。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And now I need that in order to be able to think clearly.
现在我需要它才能清晰地思考。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But it's just a first order of business.
但这只是首要任务。
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Well, it's a great morning ritual because it's often the case, especially if you have a bit of a depressive tilt, that it's kind of hard to get oriented properly in the morning.
嗯，这是一个很棒的早晨仪式，因为通常情况下，特别是如果你有一点抑郁倾向，早上很难正确定位。
And if you take...
如果你采取...
I moved into a new house a while back in Northern Ontario, and the garage wasn't set up properly, and the first thing I did in the morning was I went out in the garage for 10 minutes.
不久前我搬进了安大略省北部的新房子，车库没有安装好，我早上做的第一件事就是到车库里呆了10分钟。
And 10 minutes isn't very long, but I would order one thing, part of the toolbox or whatever.
10 分钟并不是很长，但我会订购一件东西，工具箱的一部分或其他什么。
And if you do that every day, things fall into order pretty quickly.
如果你每天都这样做，事情很快就会变得井然有序。
But it was a real relief to me in some way because I didn't have to think about what I was going to do when I woke up.
但这在某种程度上对我来说是一种真正的解脱，因为我不必考虑醒来后要做什么。
I made my bed, and then I went and fixed the garage for 10 minutes.
我整理好床铺，然后花了 10 分钟去修理车库。
And then-
然后——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And you get the brain into what I call linear operations.
然后你让大脑进入我所说的线性运算。
Like the ability to carry out something linearly when there's a near infinite number of options in your phone, in your physical space-
就像当你的手机、你的物理空间里有近乎无限数量的选项时，能够线性地执行某件事——
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I think is so powerful because you're pick-
我认为它如此强大是因为你选择了-
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Well, it's an antidote to chaos
嗯，这是混乱的解药
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
you're picking a target.
你正在选择一个目标。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
And it's a reduction of entropy.
这是熵的减少。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it certainly isn't a sinful target.
它当然不是一个罪恶的目标。
And you know it's not sin to clean your room-
你知道打扫你的房间不是罪-
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
or to organize your space or the garage.
或整理您的空间或车库。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So within the day, one can do that.
所以一天之内，人们就可以做到这一点。
I really love the stickiness, the positive stickiness of this idea that adventure and responsibility are the same thing.
我真的很喜欢这种粘性，这种积极的粘性，即冒险和责任是同一件事。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Well, let's take that apart because it's not immediately obvious.
好吧，让我们把它拆开，因为它并不是立即显而易见的。
But look, let's say you go see an adventure movie, James Bond movie, classic archetypal action adventure movie with some romance thrown in there.
但是，假设你去看一部冒险电影，詹姆斯·邦德电影，经典的动作冒险电影，其中夹杂着一些浪漫。
What is he doing?
他在做什么？
Well, difficult things.
嗯，困难的事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
He's trying to solve crimes.
他正在努力解决犯罪问题。
He's trying to catch bad guys.
他正试图抓捕坏人。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah, he's trying to battle with the forces of chaos that undermine the international order, right?
是的，他正试图与破坏国际秩序的混乱势力作斗争，对吗？
It's high order adventure, and he's putting himself at substantive risk to do that.
这是一次高阶冒险，他将自己置于巨大的风险之中。
That's the sacrificial element to it, but everybody's gripped by it.
这是它的牺牲因素，但每个人都被它所吸引。
Well, why?
嗯，为什么？
Because the stakes are high.
因为赌注很高。
What does it mean for the stakes to be high?
赌注高意味着什么？
It means the outcome matters.
这意味着结果很重要。
What does that mean?
这意味着什么？
It means it's a life-and-death situation.
这意味着这是一个生死攸关的情况。
None of that makes itself present without the hoisting of a burden.
如果没有负担，这一切都不会出现。
And here's something else I figured out so remarkable.
我还发现了另外一件非常了不起的事情。
So I went to the Church of the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem, which is the first Christian church that was established, and hypothetically it was established on the location of the crucifixion, right?
所以我去了耶路撒冷的圣墓教堂，这是第一个建立的基督教教堂，假设它是在受难地点建立的，对吧？
And so at the center of the church is an altar, and at the center of the altar is the image of this crucifixion, right?
那么教堂的中心是一个祭坛，祭坛的中心就是这个受难的图像，对吗？
Which is a sacrificial image.
这是一个牺牲的图像。
Okay.
好的。
Crucifixion, sacrificial image, altar, church.
受难，牺牲形象，祭坛，教堂。
Then around the church is the community, and then that becomes the pattern for European towns, right?
然后教堂周围就是社区，然后就变成了欧洲城镇的模式，对吧？
And all the towns that everyone wants to go visit in Europe have that pattern.
每个人都想去欧洲参观的城镇都有这种模式。
Okay, so why?
好吧，那为什么呢？
Well, responsible sacrifice is at the core of the community.
嗯，负责任的牺牲是社区的核心。
That's what's dramatized in all that architecture, in that sacred architecture, in the structure of the community with its center.
这就是所有建筑、神圣建筑、及其中心的社区结构中所戏剧化的。
Well, of course sacrifice is the center of the community, obviously, because community is a sacrificial gesture.
嗯，显然，牺牲是社区的中心，因为社区是一种牺牲姿态。
Insofar as you're not all about what you want right now, you're offering up a sacrifice of what it is that you want right now to the future and the community.
只要你不只关心你现在想要的东西，你就为未来和社区牺牲了你现在想要的东西。
Clearly.
清楚地。
And now that's going to integrate you psychologically, it's going to integrate the society and make it productive.
现在这将使你在心理上融入，它将使社会一体化并使其富有成效。
And it's so interesting that we acted that out, for that proposition out for, well, the whole, at least insofar as you're talking about Christian-oriented civilization for the last 2,000 years, without ever really noticing that we were dramatizing the proposition that sacrifice is at the center of the community.
有趣的是，我们把这个主张付诸实践，是为了整个，至少就你谈论过去 2000 年来以基督教为导向的文明而言，却没有真正注意到我们正在戏剧化牺牲是社区中心的主张。
It's like, well, obviously.
这就像，嗯，显然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, what are we to make of cities like San Francisco, which I grew up just south of, and by any standard it's a beautiful city.
好吧，我们该如何看待像旧金山这样的城市，我在旧金山南部长大，无论以什么标准来看，它都是一座美丽的城市。
I know some people roll their eyes.
我知道有些人会翻白眼。
You have the bay on one side, you have the ocean on the other.
一侧是海湾，另一侧是海洋。
It has magnificent bridges.
它有宏伟的桥梁。
It's a testament to what's possible in a city in terms of diverse landscapes, et cetera.
它证明了城市在多样化景观等方面的可能性。
But the downtown, the center of the city is Just beyond anybody's sense of indecency to walk down in the afternoon-
但市中心，城市的中心，下午走下去，任何人都感觉不到不雅的感觉——
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Wow
哇
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
hours, let alone at night.
几个小时，更不用说晚上了。
So that at this point, you wonder, is the center really the center?
那么此时你会想，中心真的是中心吗？
You literally have to avoid the center of the city in order to get away from any of that.
你实际上必须避开市中心才能远离这些。
And it's very-
而且这非常-
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah, well, the question is-
是的，好吧，问题是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's sad.
很伤心。
It's tragic
真是悲剧
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
So you're asking a symbolic question in some ways.
所以你在某种程度上提出了一个象征性的问题。
You're asking what is the nature of the relationship between the state of society in general and the fact that the centers of cities have deteriorated?
您问的是，社会总体状况与城市中心恶化这一事实之间的关系本质是什么？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Well, those aren't unrelated, not in the least.
嗯，这些并不是不相关的，至少不是。
They're very tightly related because the center does not hold.
它们的关系非常紧密，因为中心不成立。
Right?
正确的？
What's the famous poem from the 1920s?
20世纪20年代有一首著名的诗是什么？
"The center is loosened," right, "and mere chaos is set upon the world." I haven't got the quote precisely right.
“中心被松动了，”对，“世界上只剩下混乱。”我没有完全正确地得到报价。
That was T.S.
那是T.S.
Eliot.
艾略特.
He knew that when the center pillar disintegrates, then everything falls into chaos.
他知道，当中柱崩解之后，一切都会陷入混乱。
That's one of the oldest realizations of humankind.
这是人类最古老的认识之一。
The question might be, what has caused the degeneration of the center?
问题可能是，是什么导致了中心的退化？
Well, man, you could think about that.
好吧，伙计，你可以考虑一下。
The whole culture war is meditation on exactly that question.
整个文化战争正是对这个问题的思考。
There's an insistence on the postmodern side.
后现代方面有一种坚持。
So the postmodernists, they figured out that we see the world through a story, and they were right, and that's a devastating blow to the empiricists and the rationalists because they were wrong.
所以后现代主义者发现我们通过故事来看待世界，他们是对的，这对经验主义者和理性主义者来说是毁灭性的打击，因为他们错了。
We do not build our knowledge in consequence of an aggregation of facts.
我们的知识并不是通过事实的聚合而建立的。
That's not how it works.
事情不是这样的。
And a story is something like the prioritization of the world of facts.
故事就像是事实世界的优先顺序。
So-
所以——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I heard recently that religion teaches through story.
我最近听说宗教通过故事来教导。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Philosophy teaches through language that is divorced of story.
哲学通过脱离故事的语言进行教学。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And that science is designed to try and remove itself from language almost entirely.
而科学的目的就是试图将自己几乎完全从语言中剔除。
You'd love to just present graphs and figures, but you have to explain what's in those, right?
您只想展示图表和数字，但您必须解释其中的内容，对吧？
There's a discussion, there's some conclusions, but the idea is that as scientists, we're supposed to be objective and just interpret the data as they stand.
有讨论，有一些结论，但我们的想法是，作为科学家，我们应该客观地解释数据。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And to not infuse a-
并且不要注入a-
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
To only be informed by the facts
仅以事实为依据
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
To not infuse a story.
不要注入故事。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
But-
但是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But story is the way that the brain works, right?
但故事是大脑运作的方式，对吗？
Beginning, middle, end.
开始、中间、结束。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
The thing is the story creeps into science in, what would you say?
问题是这个故事渗透到了科学中，你会说什么？
Unavoidably.
不可避免。
So here, let me give you an example.
那么在这里，我给大家举个例子。
So I read a book once that was written by an ex-KGB agent who talked about a lab in the Soviet Union where there was a dreadful accident at one point that resulted in the death of about 500 people.
所以我曾经读过一本书，是一位前克格勃特工写的，书中谈到了苏联的一个实验室，那里曾经发生过一场可怕的事故，导致大约 500 人死亡。
They were trying to produce an amalgam of Ebola and smallpox.
他们试图生产埃博拉病毒和天花的混合物。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yikes.
哎呀。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
And then to aerosolize it.
然后将其雾化。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, goodness.
哦，天哪。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Okay.
好的。
Now look, from a strictly scientific perspective, value-free, there's no difference between pursuing that branch of knowledge and pursuing any other.
现在看，从严格的科学角度来看，不考虑价值，追求该知识分支与追求任何其他知识分支之间没有区别。
Now you say, "Well, that's preposterous." It's like, yes, but it's preposterous because we know that you can have an evil scientist.
现在你会说：“好吧，那太荒谬了。”就像，是的，但这很荒谬，因为我们知道你可能有一个邪恶的科学家。
Jesus, that's the trope of how many movies uses evil scientist as a trope?
天啊，有多少电影用邪恶科学家作为比喻？
The bad guy is almost always an evil scientist, right?
坏人几乎总是邪恶的科学家，对吗？
So it's not like we don't know this, so that science itself, which is the value-free pursuit of facts, can be an evil enterprise.
因此，我们并非不知道这一点，所以科学本身，即对事实的价值中立的追求，可能是一个邪恶的事业。
If you're a good scientist, the story's always lurking in the background, like why are you conducting your investigation?
如果你是一名优秀的科学家，故事总是潜伏在背景中，比如你为什么要进行调查？
Well, I want to understand more about the human psyche.
嗯，我想更多地了解人类的心理。
Well, why?
嗯，为什么？
Well, I want to be of aid to the human enterprise.
嗯，我想为人类事业提供帮助。
I want to make things better.
我想让事情变得更好。
That's the story.
这就是故事。
I want to pursue truth in a manner that makes things better.
我想以一种让事情变得更好的方式追求真理。
That's the story part.
这就是故事的部分。
And you might say, "Well, that's self-evident." It's only self-evident when it's working properly.
你可能会说：“嗯，这是不言而喻的。”只有当它正常工作时，它才是不言而喻的。
When it's not working properly, things get bad quick.
当它不能正常工作时，事情很快就会变得糟糕。
So there were scientists in Unit 731 when the Japanese invaded China, and you cannot read about what they did without traumatizing yourself permanently for the rest of your life.
所以，当日本侵略中国时，731部队里就有科学家，你读到他们所做的事情，你就无法在你的余生中永久地受到创伤。
Right?
正确的？
What happened with Unit 731, it's the worst human atrocity I've ever seen by a lot, and that was the scientific enterprise gone astray, let's say.
731部队发生的事情，是我见过的最严重的人类暴行，可以说，科学事业误入歧途了。
It has to be encapsulated within a value structure, and the question is, well, what's the appropriate value structure?
它必须封装在一个值结构中，问题是，合适的值结构是什么？
We're starting to figure that out because I talked to Richard Dawkins about this a little bit.
我们正在开始解决这个问题，因为我和理查德·道金斯谈过这个问题。
One of the things that disheartens Dawkins is that as the humanistic enterprise has progressed and as the atheistic impulse has made itself more manifest, the assault on science and logic at the universities has intensified.
让道金斯沮丧的事情之一是，随着人文事业的进步和无神论冲动变得更加明显，大学里对科学和逻辑的攻击也加剧了。
Because his notion was if we could just free ourself from the superstitions of the past, everyone would become like a hybrid between, let's say, Newton and Bacon and Descartes.
因为他的想法是，如果我们能够摆脱过去的迷信，每个人都会变得像牛顿、培根和笛卡尔之间的混合体。
It's like, no, it turns out that when you destabilize the underlying story, everybody becomes a narcissistic, immature psychopath, and they don't make good scientists.
就像，不，事实证明，当你破坏潜在故事的稳定性时，每个人都会变成自恋的、不成熟的精神病患者，他们不会成为优秀的科学家。
And the evidence for that is kind of stark because I'm sure you've observed, like I've observed, that over the last 20 years, the scientific enterprise has become a lot less reliable than it was.
这方面的证据有点明显，因为我相信你已经观察到，就像我观察到的那样，在过去 20 年里，科学事业已经变得比以前更不可靠了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, for a number of reasons.
嗯，出于多种原因。
One of the primary ones, in my opinion, and I'm familiar with the scientific community, is that a lot of science is built on lineages and who your advisors were and so forth.
在我看来，我对科学界很熟悉，其中最主要的问题之一是，很多科学都是建立在血统以及你的顾问是谁等基础上的。
It relates to funding, et cetera.
它涉及资金等等。
And it used to be that the primary value within and across lineages was to seek out new territory.
过去，血统内部和血统之间的主要价值是寻找新的领域。
I could tell a lot of stories that would take up hours about great advisors telling their students to move into new territories, which sounded like, "Get out of my field.
我可以讲很多需要花费几个小时的故事，讲述伟大的顾问告诉他们的学生进入新的领域，这听起来就像是，“滚出我的领域。
I'm going to demolish you." But instead, what they were encouraging them to do was to go on, let's use your language, new adventures of responsibility.
我要毁了你。”但相反，他们鼓励他们做的是继续，让我们用你的语言，新的责任冒险。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
On a new frontier.
迈向新的前沿。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But instead, what's happened is that 95% of the scientists in a given subfield all work on similar problems, pin medals on each other, validate each other, fund each other, and as a consequence, there are a lot of untouched problems that will hopefully at some day be investigated.
但相反，所发生的情况是，某个子领域 95% 的科学家都在研究类似的问题，互相授予奖牌，互相验证，互相资助，因此，有很多未触及的问题希望有一天能够得到研究。
The other consequence is that this debacle within the field of Alzheimer's and dementia, where one laboratory fudges data, and you kind of wonder if-- That's not my subfield, but you step back from that and you go, how the hell did this progress for 15 years where everyone was like the emperor has no clothes.
另一个后果是，阿尔茨海默氏症和痴呆症领域的这场灾难，一个实验室捏造了数据，你会想——这不是我的子领域，但你从这个领域退一步，你会发现，这到底是怎么进展的 15 年里，每个人都像皇帝没穿衣服一样。
Everyone agreeing that this is the stuff to work on-
每个人都同意这是我们需要做的事情——
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
when in fact the data were falsified, and people knew.
事实上，数据是伪造的，人们都知道。
People knew.
人们知道。
So what that means is that it's like bad family values passed on through generations.
所以这意味着这就像代代相传的不良家庭价值观。
And I do think these are well-meaning people along the line, but-
我确实认为这些人都是善意的，但是——
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Yes and no.
是和不是。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yes and-- Right.
是的，而且——对。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
They're a little bit intense on the career formulation side of things.
他们在职业规划方面有点紧张。
Well, so-
嗯，所以——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
The careerist aspect as opposed to the scientist aspect.
野心家方面与科学家方面相反。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Well-
嗯-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
That exists too.
这也是存在的。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Well, let's think about that critically.
好吧，让我们批判性地思考一下。
It's like science is a very weird endeavor because in order to actually be a scientist, you have to put discovering that you're wrong before demonstrating that you're right, and that is hard on your career in the short term.
这就像科学是一项非常奇怪的事业，因为为了真正成为一名科学家，你必须先发现自己错了，然后再证明自己是对的，而这在短期内对你的职业生涯来说是困难的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
If you play that game and you're good at it, you can discover something real, but that's going to take a while, and it's not certain.
如果你玩这个游戏并且擅长它，你可以发现一些真实的东西，但这需要一段时间，而且还不确定。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
It's not at all surprising that people would subvert an enterprise that difficult to the narrow demands of career enhancement.
人们会颠覆一个难以满足职业发展的狭隘要求的企业，这并不奇怪。
It's exactly what you'd expect, unless there was a stunningly powerful countervailing force.
这正是你所期望的，除非有强大到令人震惊的反制力量。
And that force was powerful enough, let's say, from 1550 to 1980-
比方说，从 1550 年到 1980 年，这种力量足够强大——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
...
...
so that science worked.
这样科学就起作用了。
But that's a short period of time, and it's only happened once, and we don't know what conditions had to be in place for people to actually seriously prioritize the truth.
但这是很短的时间，而且只发生过一次，我们不知道人们必须具备什么条件才能真正认真地优先考虑真相。
Seriously, because that's what a serious scientist does.
说真的，因为这就是一个严肃的科学家所做的事情。
And so it's not surprising that it would degenerate into something like dynasty and nepotism.
因此，它会堕落为王朝和裙带关系之类的东西也就不足为奇了。
That's exactly what you'd expect.
这正是您所期望的。
That's the historical norm.
这是历史常态。
So then you might think, well, what are the preconditions that have to be in place as narrative foundation for there to be at least some people that are prioritizing the truth?
那么你可能会想，好吧，作为叙事基础，必须具备哪些先决条件才能至少有一些人优先考虑真相？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think one needs to reward true adventure and novelty, taking on novel problems.
我认为人们需要奖励真正的冒险和新颖性，解决新问题。
And these days, it's so hard for a scientist to birth an entire new field, and yet there are huge sets of untapped problems.
如今，科学家很难开创一个全新的领域，但仍然存在大量尚未解决的问题。
The challenge for them is it's difficult to get funding to take on things that are truly new.
他们面临的挑战是很难获得资金来承担真正的新事物。
There's a lot of discussion these days about challenges with the NIH, et cetera.
这些天有很多关于 NIH 等挑战的讨论。
I think that the biggest challenge, regardless of the size of the budget, which is also an issue that needs to be dealt with and where it's spent, is that we tend to reward science that's already completed, that fits with the current narrative, and it's very incremental.
我认为，无论预算有多少，最大的挑战是我们倾向于奖励已经完成的、符合当前叙述的科学，而且它是非常渐进的，这也是一个需要处理和花在哪里的问题。
They reward incremental science, whereas great science comes through taking great risk, and people, like you said, holding the truth above all else and being willing to stake their careers on it.
他们奖励渐进的科学，而伟大的科学来自于承担巨大的风险，而人们，就像你说的，把真理看得高于一切，并愿意将自己的事业押在它上面。
And we need to actually reward failure if it involved effort to solve things correctly.
如果失败涉及正确解决问题的努力，我们需要真正奖励失败。
In other words-
换句话说——
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
give young scientists funding and encourage them to go after novel problems and understand that most of them will fail, and that doesn't necessarily mean that they have to be exited out of the university.
为年轻科学家提供资金，鼓励他们追求新问题，并了解他们中的大多数人都会失败，但这并不一定意味着他们必须退出大学。
Give them a new novel problem to tackle.
给他们一个新的新问题来解决。
The problem is there's so much pressure, and you know because you're a university professor.
问题是压力太大了，你知道，因为你是一名大学教授。
I know in order to reach tenure, you need to reduce the entropy as much as possible.
我知道为了获得终身教职，你需要尽可能地减少熵。
In any event, without going down that path too far, I now understand why you're saying that science has to invoke story.
无论如何，在不走得太远的情况下，我现在明白为什么你说科学必须援引故事。
That makes sense.
这是有道理的。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
It has to be embedded.
它必须被嵌入。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That makes sense.
这是有道理的。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Otherwise, science is the handmaiden of some story.
否则，科学就是某些故事的婢女。
There's no way around that because motivation is the handmaiden of some story, and so the motivational framework has to be put in place accurately, and the motivational framework for scientific inquiry is very stringent.
这是没有办法的，因为动机是某个故事的婢女，所以动机框架必须准确到位，而科学探究的动机框架是非常严格的。
Truth above all.
真理高于一切。
Right?
正确的？
So if you stake your whole goddamn career on a particular hypothesis and you run a critical study and it turns out that the reason you're famous is invalid, you have to publish that.
因此，如果你把你的整个职业生涯都押在一个特定的假设上，并且你进行了一项批判性研究，结果发现你出名的原因是无效的，你就必须发表它。
Why the hell would you do that?
你到底为什么要这么做？
Right?
正确的？
And the answer has to be because you hold the truth in relationship to human flourishing higher than the integrity of even your own self-valuation.
答案一定是因为你认为与人类繁荣相关的真理高于你自己的自我评价的完整性。
Well, man, that's a very difficult thing to establish.
嗯，伙计，这是一件非常难以确定的事情。
Now, you can do that with young scientists to some degree because you can help them understand that as a medium to long-term game, there's nothing better than pursuit of the truth, and so that's worth a risk.
现在，你可以在某种程度上与年轻科学家一起这样做，因为你可以帮助他们理解，作为一个中长期的游戏，没有什么比追求真理更好的了，所以这是值得冒险的。
It's worth a risk because you can be spectacularly successful if you pursue the truth.
这是值得冒险的，因为如果你追求真理，你就能取得巨大的成功。
It's unlikely, like it's unlikely to be a successful entrepreneur, but if you get it right, man, you've hit the motherload, right?
这不太可能，就像不太可能成为一名成功的企业家一样，但如果你做对了，伙计，你就已经达到了极限，对吧？
And you don't want to falsify your data because you want to spend your whole life pursuing something that doesn't exist, because you will talk yourself into belief that your falsifications are true, and then you'll warp the whole field, as you said, you illustrated that in relationship to Alzheimer's disease.
你不想伪造你的数据，因为你想花一生去追求一些不存在的东西，因为你会说服自己相信你的伪造是真实的，然后你会扭曲整个领域，正如你所说，你在与阿尔茨海默病的关系中说明了这一点。
You can instill love of the truth in your students, but you have to believe that's a story, too.
你可以向学生灌输对真理的热爱，但你也必须相信这也是一个故事。
You have to believe that the truth will set you free.
你必须相信真相会让你自由。
Right?
正确的？
And that's a religious presumption in the final analysis.
归根结底，这是一种宗教假设。
Serve truth.
服务真理。
It's the best long-term strategy.
这是最好的长期战略。
It's the best adventure.
这是最好的冒险。
That's a good thing to know, too.
了解这一点也是一件好事。
It's the best adventure.
这是最好的冒险。
So I made a triumvirate of truth, responsibility, and adventure, saying they're the same thing, and I figured it out with regard to truth, too.
所以我把真理、责任和冒险称为三驾马车，说它们是同一件事，而且我也从真理的角度弄清楚了这一点。
Truth is an adventure because if you What would you say?
真相是一场冒险，因为如果你你会说什么？
Vow to follow the path of the truth, you have to let go of the predictability of the outcome.
发誓要走真理之路，就必须放弃结果的可预测性。
Right now, if I wanted to manipulate you in some way, I would craft my strategy for this podcast a priority, and then I would tilt the podcast toward that end.
现在，如果我想以某种方式操纵你，我会优先制定这个播客的策略，然后我会让播客朝这个方向倾斜。
Right?
正确的？
And I could be more or less sophisticated at that.
我在这方面可能或多或少有些老练。
Or I could just say, "We're going to follow the thread wherever it goes, and I'm going to accept the outcome, and I'm going to presume that the outcome is the best outcome that could possibly have been, even if I don't see why." Okay, why is that an adventure?
或者我可以直接说，“无论它走向何方，我们都将跟随线索，我将接受结果，并且我将假设该结果是可能的最佳结果，即使我不明白为什么。”好吧，为什么这是一场冒险？
Because if I let go of my predetermined goal, I don't know what's going to happen, and that's exciting.
因为如果我放弃预定的目标，我不知道会发生什么，这是令人兴奋的。
That's right, because you don't know.
没错，因为你不知道。
Well, that's the essence of adventure.
嗯，这就是冒险的本质。
It's like you're bounding over the uncharted sea, let's say, and you don't know what's going to happen next.
比方说，这就像你在未知的海洋中跳跃，你不知道接下来会发生什么。
Well, why would you exchange that for a kind of banal predictability?
那么，你为什么要用这种平庸的可预测性来交换呢？
Well, to build your career.
好吧，建立你的职业生涯。
I understand why, but you're foregoing what's truly valuable for something that's second rate, for something that's secure.
我理解为什么，但是你为了二流的东西、安全的东西而放弃了真正有价值的东西。
That's what Abraham did.
亚伯拉罕就是这么做的。
It's like, it's better to have the adventure.
就像，最好有冒险。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So-
所以——
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Why the hell wouldn't you want that?
你为什么不想要那个？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So he left what was indulgent, he had everything-
于是他离开了纵容，他拥有了一切——
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
for what was truly generative, in service to something larger.
为了真正具有创造性的东西，为更大的事情服务。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
And dangerous.
而且很危险。
Like, he ends up as a warrior.
就像，他最终成为了一名战士。
At one point, he has to raise an army to rescue his nephew from the hands of tyrants.
一度，他必须召集一支军队，将他的侄子从暴君手中解救出来。
It's like all the adventures of life get thrown at him, but it turns out that that's what he wants.
就好像生活中所有的冒险都抛给了他，但事实证明这就是他想要的。
He wants all the adventures of life to be thrown at him, and that is what everyone wants.
他希望生活中所有的冒险都发生在他身上，这也是每个人都想要的。
And I think that is the idea that when you go watch "The Lord of the Rings," for example, or "The Hobbit," you're seeing the characterization of human personality dramatized.
我认为这就是当你观看《指环王》或《霍比特人》时，你会看到戏剧化的人类性格特征。
Like, obviously, right?
就像，显然，对吧？
That's like a truism.
这就像一个不言而喻的道理。
But you have to think about what that means, is like "The Hobbit" is Abraham.
但你必须想一想这意味着什么，就像《霍比特人》中的亚伯拉罕一样。
It's exactly the same story.
这是完全相同的故事。
And that story, that's the genuine identity of the individual.
那个故事，就是个人的真实身份。
And the promise is, is that if you aim up and you live in the spirit of the truth, you'll have the redemptive adventure of your life.
我们的承诺是，如果你目标明确，并且生活在真理的精神中，你就会经历一生的救赎冒险。
And that'll be of such significance that it'll justify the suffering that's intrinsic to life.
这将具有如此重要的意义，它将证明生命固有的痛苦是合理的。
And I think that's right.
我认为这是对的。
When you look at your own life, you're on an adventure.
当你审视自己的生活时，你正在经历一场冒险。
You have this podcast, it's ridiculously successful, right, in a way that I'm sure you couldn't have imagined.
你有这个播客，它非常成功，对吧，以一种我相信你无法想象的方式。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No.
不。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
How long?
多长时间？
Five years ago?
五年前？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
We are about to hit the end of four years in a couple of weeks.
几周后我们的四年即将结束。
We launched in January 2021.
我们于 2021 年 1 月推出。
No premonition could have seen this, or I had no concept that it would become what it's become.
没有任何预感会看到这一点，或者我不知道它会变成现在这样。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Right.
对。
Okay.
好的。
And so what's the existential consequence of that?
那么这会带来什么生存后果呢？
Everyone's life is rife with the possibility of suffering, and now you have something exciting and generative to do.
每个人的生活都充满了受苦的可能性，现在你有一些令人兴奋和富有成效的事情要做。
Why is that working?
为什么这样有效？
Existentially, why does that work?
从存在的角度来看，为什么这会起作用？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
People will ask me, "What's next?
人们会问我：“接下来怎么办？
Where are you headed?" And I always just say, "Well, on Friday I'm talking to Jordan Peterson."
你要去哪里？”我总是说，“好吧，周五我要和乔丹·彼得森谈话。”
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I'm focused on that all week long.
我整个星期都专注于此。
And next week I'm recording a solo podcast about whatever it happens to be.
下周我将录制一个关于发生的事情的个人播客。
That's setting my sights on the proximal.
这让我把目光投向了近端。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I know my deep love of finding, organizing, and disseminating information that I hope will be useful to people.
我知道我非常热爱寻找、组织和传播我希望对人们有用的信息。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Okay.
好的。
So why-
那么为什么-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And that's it.
就是这样。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's the driving force behind all of it, really.
这确实是这一切背后的驱动力。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Okay.
好的。
So great.
太棒了。
So I would say, I don't think that that proclamation, I don't think is any different from the notion of identity with the redeeming word.
所以我想说，我不认为这个宣言与救赎词的身份概念有什么不同。
That's the same idea.
这是同样的想法。
Because you said generated-
因为你说生成-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
...
...
generating ideas, right, information-
产生想法，权利，信息-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
...
...
and disseminating it, right?
并传播它，对吗？
So that's like it's valid inquiry and dissemination of the consequences.
这就像是对后果的有效询问和传播。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Okay.
好的。
Your claim is that that's highly intrinsically motivating.
你的主张是，这是高度内在激励的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Right.
对。
Okay.
好的。
So then-
那么那么——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I delight in it.
我乐在其中。
It's hard sometimes.
有时很难。
I was trying to read a really difficult paper yesterday.
昨天我试图读一篇非常难的论文。
It's hard, but it feels so good.
虽然很难，但是感觉真好。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Okay.
好的。
So then we might say, well, what's the basis for that intrinsic pleasure?
那么我们可能会说，那么，这种内在快乐的基础是什么？
We think about that biologically.
我们从生物学角度思考这一点。
Well, you could imagine it as a manifestation of the instinct that integrates, right?
嗯，你可以把它想象成整合本能的表现，对吗？
It integrates you across time, it integrates you with other people across time, right?
它跨越时间将你整合在一起，它跨越时间将你与其他人整合在一起，对吗？
And there's a marker for that.
并且有一个标记。
How could it be otherwise than you would find your deepest satisfaction in pursuing the course of action that integrates you psychologically and integrates other people socially?
在追求使你在心理上与他人在社会上融为一体的行动方针时，你会发现最深的满足感吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
That would assume that there's a concordance between your deepest self-interest and the interest of your society, and it better be that way, because otherwise you couldn't thrive as an individual in society.
这就假设你最深层的自身利益和社会利益之间存在一致性，而且最好是这样，因为否则你就无法作为社会中的个体蓬勃发展。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
So it better be that way.
所以最好是这样。
And we've been doing this for a very long time as human beings, so why we wouldn't have an instinct to mark that pathway?
作为人类，我们已经这样做了很长时间，那么为什么我们没有本能来标记这条路径呢？
And of course, we'd find our deepest satisfaction in that.
当然，我们会从中找到最深的满足。
Once you see these issues through that light, they become, I think, painfully obvious.
我认为，一旦你从这个角度看待这些问题，它们就会变得非常明显。
Also because the contrary hypothesis is absurd.
还因为相反的假设是荒谬的。
It's like you're going to find deep satisfaction, what?
就好像你会找到深深的满足感，什么？
Rejecting knowledge, and if you do happen to stumble across a nugget, you're going to hoard it for yourself.
拒绝知识，如果你碰巧偶然发现了一个金块，你就会为自己囤积它。
Right.
正确的。
Well, right.
嗯，对。
Exactly.
确切地。
It's laughable.
真是可笑。
It's clearly laughable.
这显然是可笑的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
No one believes that.
没有人相信这一点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Earlier, we were talking about operationalizing the effort, the calling to move from potential chaos to order, starts with organizing one's physical space.
早些时候，我们讨论了将这一努力付诸实施，呼吁从潜在的混乱转向秩序，从组织一个人的物理空间开始。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
If we were to extend the rings of the bull's eye out a little bit further-
如果我们将靶心的环向外延伸一点——
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
for people listening who are trying to figure out, like where do they receive that calling?
对于那些想弄清楚他们在哪里接到电话的人来说？
How do they find- ...
他们如何找到——...
their calling.
他们的呼唤。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
That-
那——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So responsibility-
所以责任——
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and adventure being perhaps the compass through which we can navigate there.
冒险也许是我们到达那里的指南针。
So they think, well, where can they grab ahold of their responsibility and-
所以他们想，好吧，他们可以在哪里抓住自己的责任，然后——
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and then as a consequence of doing that, engage in adventure and have an impact that is good for them and good for the world.
然后作为这样做的结果，参与冒险并产生对他们和世界都有好处的影响。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
That's-
那是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
How do they find that?
他们是如何发现这一点的？
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
I think there's very practical answers to those questions.
我认为这些问题有非常实际的答案。
So two of the highest order characterizations of the divine in the biblical library is calling and conscience.
因此，圣经图书馆中神的两个最高阶特征是呼召和良心。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
And you could think about those as integrated manifestations of positive and negative emotion.
你可以将这些视为积极和消极情绪的综合表现。
So imagine there's a pathway forward to your aim.
因此，想象一下有一条通往您目标的道路。
Okay?
好的？
Your negative emotion tells you when you deviate from the pathway, and your positive emotion tells you when you're progressing along the pathway.
当你偏离道路时，你的消极情绪会告诉你；当你沿着道路前进时，你的积极情绪会告诉你。
Okay, now imagine that there's a voice of your integrated positive emotion, and there's a voice of your integrated negative emotion.
好吧，现在想象一下，有一个你综合的积极情绪的声音，还有一个你综合的消极情绪的声音。
Calling, that's what fills you with enthusiasm, and that root word of that is theos.
打电话，这会让你充满热情，而它的词根就是theos。
Right?
正确的？
Theos.
提奥斯。
That's God.
那是上帝。
Calling conscience.
呼唤良知。
Okay, so now that beckons you forward.
好的，现在请您继续前进。
So how do you find that?
那么你如何找到它呢？
Some things bother you.
有些事情让你烦恼。
Those are your problems.
这些都是你的问题。
And you might think, "I don't want to have any problems." It's like, no, you've got some problems.
你可能会想：“我不想遇到任何问题。”就像，不，你有一些问题。
You can tell that because those things bug you.
你可以这么说，因为这些事情让你烦恼。
That's your conscience calling you to your destiny, those problems.
那是你的良心召唤你面对你的命运，那些问题。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Okay.
好的。
Calling.
打电话。
There's some things that interest you, right?
有些事情你感兴趣，对吧？
And you don't get to pick them exactly.
而且你无法准确地选择它们。
They just sort of make themselves manifest, like the burning bush did to Moses, because that's an example.
他们只是让自己显现出来，就像燃烧的荆棘对摩西所做的那样，因为那是一个例子。
That's the symbolic representation of calling.
这就是召唤的象征性表现。
It's the dynamism between calling and conscience that orients people upwards, right?
正是呼召和良知之间的动力使人们向上，对吧？
That's the pillar of flame and the pillar of darkness that guides the Israelites across the desert when they're lost.
这就是当以色列人迷路时引导他们穿越沙漠的火柱和黑暗之柱。
Calling beckons.
召唤召唤。
Conscience provides disciplinary limitations.
良心提供纪律限制。
That's a good way of thinking about it.
这是一个很好的思考方式。
So you can see that some things are good.
所以你可以看到有些东西是好的。
You ask yourself, what bothers me about me?
你问自己，什么让我烦恼？
Okay, now you have a domain.
好的，现在您有了一个域。
You think, "Well, man, some of those things, I don't know how to fix them." Fine.
你会想，“好吧，伙计，有些事情，我不知道如何解决。”美好的。
Don't fix them.
不要修复它们。
Fix some of the things you could fix.
修复一些你可以修复的问题。
We talked about that, or make your goddamn bed in the morning.
我们讨论过这个，或者早上整理你该死的床。
You could do that.
你可以这么做。
And you see people, their lives are so chaotic.
你看人们，他们的生活是如此混乱。
Their living environment, every single bit of it is a catastrophic mess, sometimes multiple generations deep.
他们的生活环境，每一点都是灾难性的混乱，有时甚至是几代人的灾难。
It's just chaos everywhere.
到处都是一片混乱。
So where do you start dealing with chaos?
那么，要从哪里开始处理混乱呢？
Wherever you can.
无论你在哪里都可以。
Put something in order by your own standards of order, and then see what happens.
按照你自己的秩序标准把一些东西整理好，然后看看会发生什么。
Because what'll happen is now you've got a little corner of order, and now you're a little more well-situated.
因为接下来会发生的事情是，现在你已经获得了一点点秩序，而且现在你的处境也更加有利了。
And then you'll be able to see what's the next step.
然后您将能够看到下一步是什么。
And you might think, well, it looks hopeless because there's just chaos everywhere.
你可能会想，好吧，这看起来毫无希望，因为到处都是混乱。
It's okay, because the process is exponential.
没关系，因为这个过程是指数级的。
So even if you start nowhere, if you keep doubling, you're going to get somewhere, and faster than you think.
因此，即使你一无所获，如果你不断加倍，你就会有所成就，而且比你想象的要快。
And, well, the same thing applies when you're plummeting into the abyss, unfortunately.
不幸的是，当你跌入深渊时，同样的情况也适用。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The degenerative stuff.
退化的东西。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
A colleague of mine, he's a geneticist, said, "It takes many, many, many generations to evolve a species.
我的一位同事，一位遗传学家，说：“进化一个物种需要很多、很多、很多代。
It doesn't take very many to devolve a species."
一个物种的进化并不需要太多。”
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Negative mutations can build on another and crash a species-
负突变可以在另一个物种的基础上发展并导致一个物种崩溃——
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
very, very fast.
非常非常快。
I think our psyche is similar in that way.
我认为我们的心理在这方面是相似的。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Well, that's an entropic problem.
嗯，这是一个熵问题。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
There's way more ways to make something complex worse-
有更多的方法可以让事情变得更糟-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
...
...
than there are to make it better.
比有的东西让它变得更好。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
That's why it's a straight and narrow path.
这就是为什么它是一条笔直而狭窄的道路。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
My father came to this country from Argentina, and he grew up surrounded by a lot of political chaos.
我的父亲从阿根廷来到这个国家，他在政治混乱的环境中长大。
Came to the country, became a physicist, probably because he likes order.
来到乡下，成为一名物理学家，可能是因为他喜欢秩序。
He's a very orderly guy.
他是一个很有秩序的人。
And it was probably in the early '90s.
那可能是在 90 年代初。
I was born in '75, so probably, yeah, early '90s, that we went to a movie theater together to see a movie.
我出生于 75 年，所以很可能，是的，90 年代初，我们一起去电影院看电影。
And he said it as we were walking in, he said, "Look." And I said, "What?" And he said, "This is the beginning of the end." And I said, "What do you mean?" He said, "We're degenerating as a society." And I said, "Why?" And he said, "There are people here in their pajamas."
当我们走进去时，他说，“看。”我说：“什么？”他说：“这是终结的开始。”我说：“你是什么意思？”他说：“我们的社会正在退化。”我说：“为什么？”他说：“这里有人穿着睡衣。”
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And obviously they weren't in their pajamas, but they had come in in kind of bathroom slippers.
显然他们没有穿着睡衣，而是穿着浴室拖鞋进来的。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And they weren't slovenly, but they weren't taking care of themselves, clearly.
他们并不是不修边幅，但显然他们没有照顾好自己。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Well, worse than that.
嗯，比那更糟糕。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They didn't care what other people thought, right?
他们不在乎别人怎么想，对吧？
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They didn't care.
他们不在乎。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
They were making a public display of their lack of care.
他们公开表现出他们缺乏关心。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
That's a narcissistic aspect to that, too.
这也是自恋的一面。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
He's right about that.
他是对的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, and I thought at the time, like, "He's being judgmental."
是的，我当时想，“他太挑剔了。”
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I was a teen, right?
我当时还是个青少年，对吧？
He's being judgmental, et cetera.
他的判断力等等。
But I would say from 1990 until fairly recently, hopefully things are shifting for the better now, but there has seemed to be, it's kind of chaos out there.
但我想说，从 1990 年到最近，希望现在情况正在好转，但似乎确实存在，那里有点混乱。
Now, I think it's wonderful that people can express themselves by wearing clothes that they feel represent them, et cetera.
现在，我认为人们可以通过穿着他们认为代表自己的衣服来表达自己，等等，这真是太棒了。
But this wasn't that.
但事实并非如此。
This was a lack of care.
这是缺乏照顾。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Look, voluntary, what would you say?
你看，自愿的，你会说什么？
The evocation of voluntary chaos, that's one thing.
引发自愿混乱，这是一回事。
The degeneration into chaos through sloth, let's say, that's not an adventure.
可以说，由于懒惰而堕落为混乱，这不是一次冒险。
That's carelessness in all things masquerading as an adventure.
这是对所有伪装成冒险的事情的粗心大意。
"I'm so cool.
“我太酷了。
I don't care." It's like, you're not cool.
我不在乎。”就好像，你不酷。
You're just useless.
你只是没用。
And you're covering your uselessness with a veneer of revolutionary morality.
而你却用革命道德的外表来掩盖你的无用。
It's like there's nothing in that that's up.
好像里面什么都没有。
If people want to deviate in the manner they present themselves in dress, and they're doing that because they have an inspiration or a purpose, then that's completely different than just being so cool you don't care.
如果人们想要改变自己的着装方式，并且他们这样做是因为他们有灵感或目的，那么这与仅仅表现得酷到不在乎是完全不同的。
And that's not cool.
这并不酷。
There's nothing about that that's cool.
没有什么是很酷的。
And you might say, I know you had this sense when you were a kid that your dad was overreacting.
你可能会说，我知道你小时候就有这样的感觉，你爸爸反应过度了。
It's like, yeah, well If you look, you can see things before other people see them.
就像，是的，好吧，如果你看，你就能在别人看到之前看到它们。
And he came from a place that had gone through a fair number of very rough times, and so he could've been perfectly accurate in what he saw.
他来自一个经历过相当多的艰难时期的地方，所以他所看到的可能是完全准确的。
Highly likely.
很有可能。
That's another example of the center disintegrating.
这是中心瓦解的另一个例子。
Right?
正确的？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Where do you think we are now in the United States, I think in terms of how we hold and represent order versus chaos?
你认为我们现在在美国处于什么位置，我认为就我们如何保持和代表秩序与混乱而言？
We were talking about some of these social media posts recently.
我们最近正在讨论其中一些社交媒体帖子。
We just had a public dis-
我们刚刚进行了一次公开演讲
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Oh, yeah
哦，是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
a public display of an assassination.
公开展示暗杀行动
Maybe, I hadn't intended on going there, but I think it's worth talking about.
也许，我本来不想去那里，但我认为这是值得谈论的。
It was weird.
很奇怪。
I got pulled into this through tangential reasons, this Luigi Mangione last tweet was a podcast cover of my episode with Jonathan Haidt, and some media outlets tried to make something of that.
我是因为一些无关紧要的原因而陷入这个困境的，Luigi Mangione 的最后一条推文是我与 Jonathan Haidt 的剧集的播客封面，一些媒体试图利用这一点。
But clearly he was very smart.
但显然他非常聪明。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Clearly he had forethought to his actions.
显然他对自己的行为是有预谋的。
He 3D-printed this gun, it seems.
看起来这把枪是他 3D 打印出来的。
It is all alleged now-
现在这一切都被指控了——
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Mm
毫米
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
but it seems to be pointing in that direction.
但它似乎正指向那个方向。
He seems to not want the police to go investigate anybody else, because he claims there's no one else acting with him, et cetera.
他似乎不希望警方去调查其他任何人，因为他声称没有其他人与他一起行动，等等。
He clearly was trying to make a statement, but the statement was a combination of statements about the insurance system, sort of anti-establishment because of his affinity for Kaczynski Unabomber bombings.
显然，他试图发表声明，但该声明是有关保险系统的声明的组合，由于他对卡钦斯基大学炸弹袭击事件的喜爱，有点反建制的性质。
But at the same time, he didn't really seem to fall into kind of left-leaning or right-leaning politics squarely.
但与此同时，他似乎并没有真正完全陷入左倾或右倾政治。
He was kind of all over the place.
他到处都是。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You're a trained clinician.
您是一位训练有素的临床医生。
Do you think there's some schizotypal or schizophrenic type organization there in his head, or lack of organization?
你认为他脑子里有某种精神分裂型或精神分裂型的组织，还是缺乏组织？
What are we to make of this?
我们该怎么办？
And we had to see-
我们必须看到-
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
I think it's-
我认为这是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
somebody assassinated, shot in the back, right?
有人被暗杀，背后中枪，对吗？
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
If I had to guess-
如果我必须猜测的话——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Multiple times
多次
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
...
...
I would say the first thing I would be looking for is pathological narcissism.
我想说我首先要寻找的是病态自恋。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Disordered thought?
思想混乱？
Possibly, but he was quite successful academically.
有可能，但他在学业上相当成功。
Like the typical pattern for something like schizophrenic dissolution is very much difficulty in maintaining.
就像精神分裂症溶解这样的典型模式很难维持。
So disciplined striving in a highly intellectual atmosphere, for example.
例如，在高度智力的氛围中进行严格的努力。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, he was a valedictorian.
是的，他是一名告别演说者。
He went to-
他去了——
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
Ivy League school and graduated.
常春藤联盟学校并毕业。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
I'd think more Luciferian grandiosity, and the intellect is particularly prone to that.
我认为更多的是路西法式的宏伟，而智力尤其容易出现这种情况。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
The archetypal representation of the intellect that overreaches is Lucifer, right?
超越智力的典型代表是路西法，对吗？
God's highest angel gone most catastrophically wrong, which means that the best thing in its place is the worst thing on the top.
上帝最高的天使犯了最灾难性的错误，这意味着在它的位置上最好的东西是最糟糕的东西。
That happens with sexuality, it can happen with aggression.
性行为会发生这种情况，攻击性行为也会发生这种情况。
It certainly happens with the intellect.
这肯定会发生在智力上。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
And so I think he's a worshiper of his own intellect, and believed that he was the guy who could make the decision, even of life and death, which means he took onto himself the role of ultimate judge.
所以我认为他是一个对自己智慧的崇拜者，并且相信他是那个可以做出决定的人，甚至是生死，这意味着他承担了最终法官的角色。
And that's what the kid who shot up Columbine did, too, and said in his own writings.
开枪射杀哥伦拜恩的孩子也这么做了，并在自己的著作中说道。
He's the judge, and that's like narcissistic beyond comprehension.
他是法官，这就像无法理解的自恋。
And the fact that he's being celebrated, well, that's an echo of that moralizing narcissism that's deeply embedded in our culture.
事实上，他正在受到庆祝，这反映了我们文化中根深蒂固的道德自恋。
Deeply embedded.
深深嵌入。
And so it's very ugly.
所以它非常丑陋。
It's very ugly.
这是非常难看的。
I see, so we're going to, what?
我明白了，所以我们要去，什么？
We're now vigilantes in relationship to the corporate world.
我们现在是企业界的义务警员。
Judge, jury, and executioner.
法官、陪审团和刽子手。
And the reason we've taken on that role is because we, unlike, let's say, the people who run healthcare enterprises, we truly care for the sick and oppressed.
我们之所以承担这一角色，是因为我们与经营医疗保健企业的人不同，我们真正关心病人和受压迫的人。
It's like, do you now?
就像，你现在呢？
Do you now?
你现在有吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, well-
是的，好吧-
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
There's so much moralizing in our culture, it's really beyond belief.
我们的文化中有如此多的道德说教，这实在令人难以置信。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I was going to say, all these CEOs now are going to need personal security.
我想说的是，所有这些首席执行官现在都需要人身安全。
That's hardly going to cause them to adjust their premiums or something downward.
这几乎不会导致他们调整保费或下调其他费用。
I think as people get more scared, they tend to shore up-
我认为当人们变得更加害怕时，他们往往会支撑起来——
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Double down
双倍下注
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
yeah, they tend to double down.
是的，他们往往会加倍努力。
Earlier, we were talking about action at a distance.
早些时候，我们谈论的是远距离行动。
Clearly, this Mangione guy had, is-
显然，这个曼吉奥内的家伙，是——
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
aware of action at a distance
意识到远处的动作
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Short-term route to high status.
通往高地位的短期途径。
So ignored or notorious.
因此被忽视或臭名昭著。
There's a hard choice for young men.
对于年轻人来说，这是一个艰难的选择。
They'll pick notorious, many of them will.
他们会选择臭名昭著的人，他们中的许多人都会。
And no wonder, because status is everything.
这也不足为奇，因为地位就是一切。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it's hard to do good things over long periods of time.
而且长期做好事是很难的。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's not hard to be good, it's just hard to do good things, it's hard to do big things.
做好人并不难，难的是做好事，难的是做大事。
I think that's one reason why I'm very happy that Elon is being celebrated.
我认为这就是我对埃隆受到庆祝感到非常高兴的原因之一。
You don't have to agree with him politically, but the rockets, the idea of going to Mars, trying to make sure that our species replaces itself.
你不必在政治上同意他，但火箭，去火星的想法，试图确保我们的物种取代自己。
These are big, important endeavors.
这些都是重大而重要的努力。
The reason-
原因是——
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Well, and he can clearly do them.
嗯，他显然可以做到。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Neuralink.
神经链接。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
He's been insanely successful doing five impossible things simultaneously.
他同时完成了五件不可能的事情，取得了巨大的成功。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Right?
对吗？
That's not fluke.
这不是侥幸。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No.
不。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Right?
对吗？
Once, probably not fluke even once, but the probability that it's fluke once is higher.
一次，或许一次都不会侥幸，但一次侥幸的概率更高。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Five times?
五次？
No, that's a reputation.
不，那是声誉。
Right.
正确的。
And he's a from first principles sort of guy.
他是一个从根本上讲原则的人。
So yeah, I wouldn't bet against Elon Musk.
所以，是的，我不会打赌埃隆·马斯克做空。
And that is independent of his political stance.
这与他的政治立场无关。
And is it difficult to do good things?
而做好事很难吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, it's hard.
哦，这很难。
It's hard to do long-term good things because they're long-term.
做长期的好事是很难的，因为它们是长期的。
That's what I was trying to say.
这就是我想说的。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Right, but it's also intensely...
没错，但是也很激烈……
The thing is, this is back to that issue of the relationship between responsibility and adventure.
问题是，这又回到了责任与冒险之间的关系问题。
It's like if the aim is true, the voyage is worthwhile.
就好像如果目标是真的，那么这次航行就值得了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
And that happens right away.
这立刻就会发生。
You're very successful with your podcast, but my suspicions are you've deeply enjoyed it since its onset.
您的播客非常成功，但我怀疑您从一开始就非常喜欢它。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Well, that means that some of your pleasure is satiation related.
嗯，这意味着你的一些快乐与饱腹感有关。
You've become successful, but if that was your aim, you would've failed as a podcaster because-
你已经成功了，但如果这是你的目标，作为一名播客你就会失败，因为——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Definitely
绝对
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
...
...
a podcast-
播客-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I definitely would've failed.
我肯定会失败。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Oh, definitely.
哦，当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Oh, absolutely.
哦，绝对是。
100%.
100%。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because it wasn't the pursuit of pleasure per se.
因为它本身并不是追求快乐。
It's sort of like the difference between is it easier to be the class clown or the top of the class?
这有点像成为班上的小丑更容易还是班上的尖子更容易之间的区别？
It's just much easier to be the class clown.
成为班级小丑要容易得多。
All you have to do is crack 10 jokes, one of them hits, and you're safe, but you're actually dissolving as you go.
你所要做的就是讲 10 个笑话，其中一个很成功，你就安全了，但实际上你正在溶解。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Right.
对。
Well, that's the prioritization of the short term over the long run.
嗯，这就是短期优先于长期的情况。
Rogan's a perfectly appropriate example because he's sort of like the archetype of the successful podcaster.
罗根是一个非常合适的例子，因为他有点像成功播客的原型。
It's like, what's Joe doing?
就像，乔在做什么？
Well, he's doing what he's always done.
嗯，他正在做他一直在做的事情。
He sits down with his producer, one guy, and he talks to people he wants to talk to about things he wants to talk to them about.
他和他的制片人（一个人）坐下来，和他想和他们谈论的人谈论他想和他们谈论的事情。
That's the whole thing.
这就是全部事情。
And it's the lefties who refused to talk to people in the podcast world for 10 years are now proclaiming to everyone who will listen that they should've built their own alternative media apparatus, and they could've participated in the one that exists now at any time had they shown the least proclivity to do so.
十年来拒绝与播客世界中的人们交谈的左翼人士现在向所有愿意倾听的人宣称，他们应该建立自己的替代媒体机构，如果他们表现出最不愿意这样做的话，他们可以随时参与现在存在的机构。
How it's not such an easy thing to build because it wasn't something that Joe built.
建造它并不是一件容易的事，因为它不是乔建造的。
It was something that happened around him in consequence of the nature of his pursuit.
这是由于他追求的性质而发生在他周围的事情。
And that's the case for virtually all the successful podcasters.
几乎所有成功的播客都是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think people forget how Joe's podcast started.
我认为人们忘记了乔的播客是如何开始的。
You might know this story.
你可能知道这个故事。
I'll keep it brief, but he was a comedian at the Comedy Store.
我会简短地说，但他是喜剧商店的喜剧演员。
He had done some television and things of that sort, but, and people can find this online, the videos are on YouTube, where a comedian was stealing Ari Shaffir's jokes.
他拍过一些电视节目和类似的东西，但是，人们可以在网上找到这些视频，这些视频在 YouTube 上，其中一位喜剧演员窃取了阿里·沙菲尔的笑话。
So Joe got up on stage and said...
于是乔站上台说……
There's some ethics in the comedy community.
喜剧界有一些道德规范。
People can buy jokes, but you don't steal jokes apparently.
人们可以买笑话，但显然你不能偷笑话。
And there's an etiquette as well.
还有礼仪。
So apparently, he confronted this guy in front of the audience and said, "You're stealing his jokes." And the guy challenged him, and Joe said no. Joe stood up in the name of justice for a friend of his.
显然，他当着观众的面面对这个人说：“你在偷他的笑话。”那个人向他发起挑战，乔拒绝了。乔以正义的名义为他的朋友挺身而出。
And my understanding, could be wrong about this, but my understanding is that Joe was then banished from that particular comedy club.
我的理解可能是错误的，但我的理解是乔随后被那个特定的喜剧俱乐部驱逐。
So what did he do?
那么他做了什么？
He went home, he popped open his laptop, and he and Brian Redban and a few other folks started what eventually became "The Joe Rogan Podcast." It came out of an impulse to stand up for the truth.
他回到家，打开笔记本电脑，和布莱恩·雷德班以及其他一些人开始了最终成为“乔·罗根播客”的活动。这是出于捍卫真理的冲动。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Which I think is an important thing for people to understand because it helps you understand Joe.
我认为这对人们来说理解很重要，因为它可以帮助你理解乔。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Well, and he'd be non-airing in that.
好吧，他不会在那件事上播出。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
And I think that that's-
我认为那就是——
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
And more power to him.
并且给他更多的力量。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, and he doesn't claim to always be right, but his pursuit of the truth has been a driving force for the podcast.
是的，他并不声称自己总是正确的，但他对真理的追求一直是播客的驱动力。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
He claims consistently to not be sufficiently right.
他始终声称自己的观点不够正确。
That's why he listens and asks questions.
这就是为什么他会倾听并提出问题。
You don't ask genuine questions if you believe that you already know everything.
如果您相信自己已经知道一切，那么您就不会提出真正的问题。
You only ask real questions if you don't think that you know enough.
只有当您认为自己了解得不够时，您才会提出真正的问题。
And Joe wouldn't be perennially attractive to his audiences if he wasn't asking the same questions that the audience would like to have answered.
如果乔不问观众希望回答的问题，他就不会永远对观众有吸引力。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
He's genuinely curious.
他真的很好奇。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I mean, you said it.
我的意思是，你说过了。
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Well, Musk himself said when I interviewed him, he talked about a terrible existential crisis that he had when he was 13, 14, which is not atypical of people with outstanding intellects, let's say.
嗯，马斯克本人说，当我采访他时，他谈到了他 13、14 岁时经历的一场可怕的生存危机，可以说，这对于具有杰出智力的人来说并不罕见。
And he resolved that by recognizing that the quest is the source of meaning.
他认识到探索是意义的源泉，从而解决了这个问题。
And so he took it upon himself to confront difficult problems and try to solve them.
因此，他勇于面对困难并试图解决它们。
And he found that to be sufficiently gratifying, so his existential crisis resolved itself.
他发现这足够令人满意，因此他的生存危机自行解决了。
And that's very much the same pattern that Rogan is exemplifying in you in your pursuits.
这与罗根在你的追求中所体现的模式非常相似。
And you can see what impact it has on the public.
你可以看到它对公众有什么影响。
And I was talking with one of your staff members before this podcast about your lectures, say, in Australia.
在这个播客之前，我正在与您的一位工作人员谈论您在澳大利亚的讲座。
And so you're in the weird position where 5,000 people come and listen to a biologist lecture spontaneously for what?
那么你就处于一个奇怪的境地，5000 个人自发地来听一位生物学家的讲座是为了什么？
90 minutes?
90分钟？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Like what the hell?
到底是什么？
Well, that's just an indication of how compelled people are by anything approximating a genuine quest.
嗯，这只是表明人们对任何近似真实追求的事物有多么的着迷。
It doesn't even matter the direction, right?
甚至方向都不重要，对吧？
It matters the commitment and that capacity to explore and transmit, and that is a manifestation of the word that redeems.
承诺以及探索和传播的能力很重要，这是救赎这个词的体现。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I love this idea or what you just said, that it doesn't even so much matter the direction as much as the commitment.
我喜欢这个想法或者你刚才所说的，方向并不重要，承诺更重要。
A colleague of mine at Stanford who I respect tremendously, Anna Lembke, who wrote the book, "Dopamine Nation," she's the head of our dual diagnosis addiction center.
我非常尊敬我在斯坦福大学的一位同事安娜·伦布克（Anna Lembke），她写了《多巴胺国家》一书，她是我们双重诊断成瘾中心的负责人。
She was the one who really truly deserves credit for bringing dopamine into the public discussion over the last few years.
在过去的几年里，她确实值得赞扬，因为她将多巴胺带入了公众讨论。
She initiated that, talking about how big inflections in dopamine that are very fast, that aren't preceded by effort, AKA drugs of abuse, behavioral addictions, et cetera, leave us below baseline with our dopamine, and then people will engage in more of the behavior and it drives us further and further and further.
她首先谈到了多巴胺的巨大变化，这种变化非常快，没有经过努力，又名药物滥用，行为成瘾等等，使我们的多巴胺低于基线，然后人们会参与更多的行为，它驱使我们越走越远。
That's kind of the principle of it.
这就是它的原理。
I was talking to her about how people get sober, and the conversation turned to how do young people find their purpose?
我跟她谈论人如何清醒，话题转到年轻人如何找到自己的人生目标？
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It was very interesting.
这很有趣。
She said, "Let's talk about finding purpose.
她说：“我们来谈谈寻找目标吧。
Everyone nowadays wants to know what their purpose is."
现在每个人都想知道他们的目的是什么。”
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And she said, "The way you find your purpose is by going out onto your front lawn and seeing if the leaves need to be raked."
她说：“找到目标的方法就是走到你家门前的草坪上，看看是否需要耙树叶。”
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sounds familiar, right?
听起来很熟悉，对吧？
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You find purpose by figuring out how you can be of use at progressively larger and larger spheres-
你通过弄清楚如何在越来越大的领域发挥作用来找到目标——
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Mm
毫米
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
away from yourself.
远离你自己。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And in doing that-
在这样做的过程中——
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
And the present
而现在的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and in doing that, you start to hear the calling and you find your purpose.
在这样做的过程中，你开始听到召唤并找到你的目标。
And as you said-
正如你所说——
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Or it reveals itself to you.
或者它向你展示自己。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It reveals-
它揭示了——
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
And it's the same thing.
这是同样的事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So I think you two would enjoy a conversation at some point.
所以我认为你们两个会在某个时候喜欢谈话。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Well-
嗯-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think you're very aligned
我认为你们非常一致
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
...
...
this is an important thing to return to because people are often curious about what to do practically.
这是一件值得回顾的重要事情，因为人们常常对实际要做什么感到好奇。
It's like, okay First, this is what Jacob does.
就像，好吧，首先，这就是雅各布所做的。
Jacob, in the Old Testament stories, he eventually becomes Israel, right?
雅各，在旧约故事中，他最终成为以色列，对吗？
And so that's his name, and Israel means "we who wrestle with God." Now, Jacob is a bad guy when the story starts, and he leaves his home and the perverse influence of his mother and his criminal, betraying past behind, and he decides that he's going to aim up.
这就是他的名字，以色列的意思是“我们与上帝摔跤的人”。现在，故事开始时，雅各布是一个坏人，他离开了他的家，离开了他母亲和罪犯的邪恶影响，背叛了过去，他决定要瞄准。
And that night, he makes an altar, and he makes a sacrifice, and that night, he has a dream of a staircase that reaches up to heaven, which is now what he's walking up, right?
那天晚上，他筑了一座祭坛，献上了祭品，那天晚上，他梦见了一座通往天堂的楼梯，这就是他现在正在走的地方，对吗？
And so he finds his purpose, he finds his adventure as a consequence of his decision to be better.
所以他找到了自己的目标，他发现自己的冒险是因为他的决定变得更好。
Okay, so now you want to find your purpose.
好吧，现在你想找到你的目标。
Okay.
好的。
First thing you have to do, you have to review how wretched and miserable you actually are, and you have to face that, and then you have to think, "I'd rather not have that," and it has to be true.
你要做的第一件事是，你必须审视自己实际上是多么不幸和痛苦，你必须面对它，然后你必须想，“我宁愿不要这样”，而且它必须是真的。
And then you have to aim up.
然后你必须瞄准。
Now, you don't know what that means because you're pretty scattered and dissolute, but at least you got the damn intent in mind.
现在，你不知道这意味着什么，因为你相当分散和放荡，但至少你心里有该死的意图。
And then you have to be willing to make the sacrifices along the way.
然后你必须愿意一路上做出牺牲。
Okay, then what happens?
好吧，那么会发生什么呢？
Well, then the pathway will reveal itself to you in increments.
好吧，那么这条路将会逐步向你展示。
Calling.
打电话。
Is there something around here that I could fix, that I would fix?
这里有什么我可以修复、我愿意修复的东西吗？
That's a great question.
这是一个很好的问题。
Is there something at hand that I could fix, that I would fix?
手头有什么东西我可以解决，我会解决吗？
It might be something low because especially when you first get going, you're not good for anything.
它可能很低，因为尤其是当你刚开始时，你什么都做不好。
So you might have to start with something pretty trivial, but it doesn't matter because you start getting better.
所以你可能必须从一些非常琐碎的事情开始，但这并不重要，因为你开始变得更好。
Is there something that bothers me, that's conscience, that I could set right in some small way?
有什么东西困扰着我，就是良心，我可以通过一些小方法来纠正吗？
Well, that's there for everyone, right?
嗯，那是适合每个人的，对吧？
In the midst of the most catastrophic mess, that pathway.
在最灾难性的混乱之中，那条路。
You might even say, look, the more mess around you, the more unstructured possibility you have at hand.
你甚至可能会说，看，你周围越混乱，你手头的可能性就越杂乱。
And it's true.
这是真的。
I'm not trying to be a Pollyanna about this.
我不想在这件事上盲目乐观。
I know how difficult that is.
我知道那有多困难。
But it is the case that the more mess at hand that you can see, the more opportunity that's there.
但事实是，你看到的混乱越多，机会就越多。
Because, well, if you can see that it's a mess, then you can see the pathway to cleaning it up.
因为，如果你能看到它一团糟，那么你就能看到清理它的途径。
Well, so do it.
嗯，就这样吧。
Do it.
做吧。
See what happens.
看看会发生什么。
That's the adventure.
这就是冒险。
What's going to happen?
将会发生什么？
In my class, my Maps of Meaning class, I used to have students do this as a project, and one of the projects was find something around you in your neighborhood, wherever, in your family, that isn't set right, and see if you could set it right.
在我的课堂上，我的“意义地图”课上，我曾经让学生们把这个作为一个项目来完成，其中一个项目是找到你周围的邻居、任何地方、你的家庭中，有哪些地方没有设置好，看看你是否可以把它设置好。
Just write down what happens.
只需写下发生的事情即可。
Well, one student in particular, he decided his mother had died, and the family kind of fragmented.
嗯，特别是一名学生，他认为他的母亲已经去世，家庭支离破碎。
And so he decided he would try to take on the role of mother, be responsible for the household operating.
于是他决定尝试承担起母亲的角色，负责家庭的经营。
Well, it grew him up like mad, as you can imagine.
好吧，正如你可以想象的那样，这让他疯狂地成长。
He ran into all sorts of weird resistances, right?
他遇到了各种奇怪的阻力，对吧？
Because his family was upset that he was doing what mom used to do, and he just had a tremendously complex adventure as a consequence of his willingness to pursue this.
因为他的家人对他做妈妈以前做的事情感到不安，而他只是因为愿意追求这一点而经历了一次极其复杂的冒险。
It was obviously necessary because the alternative was that his family was going to fall apart.
这显然是必要的，因为否则他的家庭就会分崩离析。
So that's there for everyone.
所以这适合每个人。
You say, "Well, my circumstances are so difficult." It's like, fair enough.
你说：“嗯，我的处境很困难。”这很公平。
So are everybody else's, by the way.
顺便说一句，其他人的也是如此。
But that means there's a lot of mess.
但这意味着有很多混乱。
Fix it a bit, and that's ridiculously entertaining and unpredictable.
稍微修复一下，这会非常有趣且不可预测。
And that in itself is a great deal.
这本身就很重要。
You have no idea what's going to happen, just like you didn't know what would happen when you started the podcast.
你不知道会发生什么，就像你开始播客时不知道会发生什么一样。
Why'd you start it?
你为什么开始它？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
For me, I felt a compulsion to share what I knew.
对我来说，我有一种冲动要分享我所知道的事情。
But because during the pandemic, everyone was so focused on vaccines and lockdowns that no one was talking about the reality that everyone was facing, including, sorry, Josh Gordon, I know him through time, our director of the National Institutes of Mental Health.
但因为在大流行期间，每个人都如此关注疫苗和封锁，以至于没有人谈论每个人所面临的现实，包括，对不起，乔什·戈登，我很早就认识他，我们的国家心理健康研究所所长。
Not a single thing out there about, hey, folks, if you're going to be indoors this much, get some sunlight in your eyes in the morning or else you're going to have trouble sleeping.
嘿，伙计们，如果你要在室内待这么长时间，请在早上让阳光照射到你的眼睛，否则你会很难入睡。
Trouble sleeping equates to mental health issues, stress, uncertainty.
睡眠困难等同于心理健康问题、压力和不确定性。
My lab was working on ways to regulate stress through deliberate breathing, through other mechanisms.
我的实验室正在研究通过有意识的呼吸和其他机制来调节压力的方法。
It was like, well, I want people to have tools, zero-cost tools to deal with their stress, to help them regulate their circadian biology because those wick out to countering the negative forces that were on us, which are social order was disrupted, people are at home.
就像，嗯，我希望人们拥有工具，零成本的工具来应对压力，帮助他们调节昼夜节律，因为这些工具可以对抗我们身上的负面力量，即社会秩序被破坏，人们呆在家里。
So it was a desire to give people tools that I knew existed, that I was knowledgeable about, and I had a longstanding and growing compulsion that I wanted to talk about neuroscience because it's so darn cool.
因此，我渴望为人们提供我所知道的、我所了解的工具，而且我有一种长期存在且不断增长的冲动，我想谈论神经科学，因为它太酷了。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Right.
对。
Okay.
好的。
So it's a logical extension.
所以这是一个合乎逻辑的延伸。
Sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There was a lot of energy behind the mission.
这项任务背后蕴藏着巨大的能量。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Well, why-
嗯，为什么-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But then there was a calling.
但后来有一个召唤。
The calling was from hearing about people suffering.
这个召唤来自于听到人们受苦受难的消息。
It's like, well, of course you're not sleeping well.
就好像，好吧，你当然睡得不好。
Not only are there a million things to worry about right now-
现在不仅有一百万件事要担心——
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Mm
毫米
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
people aren't working, et cetera, but you're not getting sunlight in your eyes.
人们没有工作等等，但你的眼睛却没有阳光。
You need to get outside.
你需要出去。
And then there's the whole socialization thing, and look, whatever people's circumstances, there are things that they could do.
然后是整个社会化的事情，看，无论人们的情况如何，他们都可以做一些事情。
And so I felt that calling, and my conscience told me that I have the knowledge, so why would I cloister with it at home?
所以我感觉到了这种召唤，我的良心告诉我，我有知识，那我为什么要把它藏在家里呢？
What good is that?
那有什么好处呢？
And so I just started blabbing on the internet.
于是我就开始在网上胡言乱语。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Right.
正确的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's why.
这就是原因。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Well, you can think, well, that's a logical extension of your subsidiary calling to be a teacher and a professor.
嗯，你可以想，嗯，这是你的附属部门成为一名教师和教授的逻辑延伸。
You're already a researcher.
你已经是一名研究员了。
You're already a professor, so you're investigating and transmitting knowledge.
你已经是一名教授，所以你正在研究和传播知识。
It's like, well, looks like you could do that on a broader scale, and the technology's there.
看起来，你可以在更广泛的范围内做到这一点，而且技术已经存在。
Why not explore that?
为什么不探索一下呢？
That's perfectly reasonable, and you can see the interplay of calling and conscience there.
这是完全合理的，你可以在那里看到呼召和良心的相互作用。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
That's a lovely way of characterizing the voice of the divine, which is how it's characterized repeatedly.
这是一种描述神圣声音的可爱方式，也是它被反复描述的方式。
Elijah's the prophet who appears with Christ when he's transfigured on the mount in the New Testament.
以利亚是新约中基督在山上变相时与他一同显现的先知。
It's Elijah and Moses.
是以利亚和摩西。
Elijah is the first person in human history who identifies the divine with conscience.
以利亚是人类历史上第一个用良心认定神性的人。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
That's his contribution.
这就是他的贡献。
That's a major psychological revolution, right?
这是一场重大的心理革命，对吧？
It's an unheralded ...
这是一场不为人知的...
transformation in understanding.
认识上的转变。
It's like it's not the storm, it's not the forest fire, it's not the earthquake, it's not the god of nature.
就好像这不是风暴，不是森林火灾，不是地震，不是自然之神。
He's the originator of the phrase, "the still small voice." Right?
他是“小声音”这句话的创始人。正确的？
The notion that your conscience is the voice of the divine, my God, there's virtually no discovery, there's no proposition more revolutionary than that.
你的良心是神圣之声的观念，我的上帝，几乎没有发现，没有比这更具革命性的命题了。
And so that's why Elijah is a prophet of primary status, and I just see no reason at all not to take that claim seriously.
这就是为什么以利亚是一位具有首要地位的先知，我认为没有理由不认真对待这一说法。
It's like you come up with an explanation for your conscience.
就像你为自己的良心想出了一个解释。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
It tells you things you don't want to hear.
它会告诉你一些你不想听的事情。
So how is that you?
那你怎么样？
You have to gerrymander the definition of you for that to be you.
你必须重新定义你，才能让那个人成为你。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, I absolutely believe that things come from outside of us.
不，我绝对相信事物来自我们的外部。
Certainly for me, and I'm now very much a devotee of prayer.
当然对我来说，我现在是一个非常虔诚的祈祷者。
I prayed before this podcast.
我在播客之前祈祷过。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
What do you pray?
你祈祷什么？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, before this podcast-
好吧，在这个播客之前——
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I prayed for clarity of mind, to be able to learn from you and to help transmit that knowledge out to people in a way that would be useful to them.
我祈祷头脑清晰，能够向您学习，并以对人们有用的方式帮助将这些知识传播给人们。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
For sustained focus, for the ability to also let go and-
为了持续专注，为了能够放手并且——
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and not try and control or lead with questions.
而不是试图控制或提出问题。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
That's sacrifice.
这就是牺牲。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
And to allow a sense of randomness and serendipity to make it what it is, trusting that it's in service to the listeners.
并允许一种随机性和偶然性的感觉使其成为现实，相信它是为听众服务的。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Right.
对。
Well, that's a very precise and properly formulated prayer.
嗯，这是一个非常精确且格式正确的祈祷。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
I pray before every podcast.
我在每个播客之前都会祈祷。
I pray before going to sleep each night.
我每天晚上睡觉前都会祈祷。
I've been doing this for a little over a year.
我这样做已经一年多了。
I always quietly, secretly-
我总是悄悄地、秘密地——
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Why?
为什么？
Why did you decide to do that?
你为什么决定这样做？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
My coming to the whole notion of prayer and God, et cetera, was complicated in the backdrop in the sense that I always secretly prayed.
我对祈祷和上帝等整个概念的认识在我总是秘密祈祷的背景下是复杂的。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Hmm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Always secretly prayed, and then about a year and a half ago, a guy that works on my security team started talking to me about the Bible.
总是偷偷地祈祷，然后大约一年半前，我的安全团队的一个工作人员开始和我谈论圣经。
We started talking about God, and it made sense.
我们开始谈论上帝，这是有道理的。
I started reading the Bible.
我开始读圣经。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Hmm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm not through it yet.
我还没看完呢
And I started praying.
我开始祈祷。
And I had a number of experiences as a consequence of praying, clearly as a consequence of prayer, that made me realize that prayer doesn't give me a capacity of any sort.
由于祈祷，我有很多经历，显然是祈祷的结果，这让我意识到祈祷并没有给我任何形式的能力。
It just allows certain things that I believe are inside of me to come out and for me to-
它只是让我相信在我内心的某些东西出来，让我-
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah, proper prayer establishes aim.
是的，正确的祷告可以确立目标。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
That's right.
这是正确的。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's right.
没错。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Well, why wouldn't you establish your aim?
那么，你为什么不确立你的目标呢？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Why wouldn't you take a moment before you start your podcast to remember what the hell you're trying to accomplish and to have it firmly in mind?
为什么你不在开始播客之前花点时间记住你到底想要完成什么并牢牢记住它呢？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, and it felt different.
是的，而且感觉不一样。
So I should say that I have this little list that I sometimes do.
所以我应该说我有时会列出这个小清单。
I'll say deliberate breathing, AKA breathwork, can allow you to shift your state.
我想说的是，有意识的呼吸，又称呼吸，可以让你改变你的状态。
Hypnosis is a tool that can allow you to solve a particular problem because it has some aspect of neuroplasticity there.
催眠是一种可以让你解决特定问题的工具，因为它具有神经可塑性的某些方面。
Non-sleep deep rest, which is a thing that was built out of this practice called Yoga Nidra, where you go into an awake but deeply relaxed state, allows you to restore your vigor.
非睡眠深度休息是一种称为瑜伽休息术的练习，您可以进入清醒但深度放松的状态，让您恢复活力。
Meditation, to me, is a way of enhancing one's ability to focus.
对我来说，冥想是增强注意力的一种方式。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
A third eye meditation of concentrating your breath, et cetera.
集中呼吸的第三眼冥想等等。
We know based on the data it improves focus.
根据数据我们知道它可以提高注意力。
Prayer, to me, is entirely different than all of those.
对我来说，祈祷与所有这些完全不同。
There's some overlap.
有一些重叠。
They look similar.
他们看起来很相似。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Oh, oh.
哦，哦。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Some of them look similar from the outside.
其中一些从外面看起来很相似。
But prayer, for me, is the allowing of something from truly outside me to come through me and bring out the best in me.
但对我来说，祈祷是允许真正来自我之外的东西通过我，并带出我最好的一面。
And that's why I pray for four things.
这就是为什么我为四件事祈祷。
I pray for ability, I pray for other people, and I also have learned that a powerful aspect of prayer is just listening.
我为能力祈祷，为其他人祈祷，而且我还了解到祈祷的一个强大方面就是倾听。
Because just stopping and listening and trying to invite in or allow in messages that if I didn't still myself, that I wouldn't hear.
因为只是停下来倾听，并试图邀请或允许消息进来，如果我不安静下来，我就听不到。
And sometimes I'll go to sleep and then the next morning something will come to mind.
有时我会去睡觉，然后第二天早上就会想起一些事情。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's not always immediate.
这并不总是立竿见影的。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Oh, I don't think there's any real difference between that and revelation.
哦，我认为这和启示之间没有任何真正的区别。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
So imagine that what speaks to you in intuition is the voice of your aim.
因此，想象一下，直觉对你说话的是你目标的声音。
Now, this would be true if your thoughts and the images that appear to you are tools, so to speak, to orient you towards your destination.
现在，如果你的想法和出现在你面前的图像是工具，可以这么说，引导你走向目的地，那就是真的。
Well, obviously they have to be that because if your thoughts and your visions, let's say, didn't orient you towards your destination, they would be useless and you'd never get anywhere.
嗯，显然它们必须是这样的，因为如果你的想法和你的愿景，比如说，没有引导你走向你的目的地，它们将毫无用处，你永远不会到达任何地方。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Okay, so now you specify your aim, and it is the voice of that aim that will make itself manifest to you.
好的，现在你指定你的目标，而这个目标的声音就会向你显现。
That is what a revelation is.
这就是启示。
And one of these days when we have a podcast, I'd like to sit down and talk to you about the relationship, the formal relationship between thought and prayer.
有一天，当我们有一个播客时，我想坐下来和你们谈谈这种关系，思想和祈祷之间的正式关系。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Because I think thought is secularized prayer.
因为我认为思想就是世俗化的祈祷。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
We looked at its history, because when did we start to think?
我们回顾了它的历史，因为我们什么时候开始思考？
That's not so obvious.
那不是那么明显。
We started to think in words after we developed the ability to use language.
当我们发展了使用语言的能力后，我们就开始用文字思考。
What's that, 150,000 years?
那是什么，十五万年？
Maybe it's longer than that.
也许比那更长。
No one really knows.
没有人真正知道。
But thought has its historical origins.
但思想有其历史根源。
The probability that it emerged from something like prayer, as far as I can tell, is 100%.
据我所知，它从祈祷之类的事情中出现的可能性是 100%。
But I'd like to at some point, it's complicated, but I'd like to have a discussion with you about that.
但我想在某个时候，这很复杂，但我想与你讨论一下。
So imagine that to have an informative intuition means that you posit a question.
因此，想象一下，拥有信息丰富的直觉意味着你提出了一个问题。
And that's a form of humility.
这是谦卑的一种形式。
It's like, there's something I need to know that I don't know, that I could know, that I'd like to know.
就像，有些事情我需要知道，但我不知道，我可以知道，我想知道。
So you set the stage.
所以你搭建了舞台。
Well, once you set the stage, the probability that a creative idea will enter the theater of your imagination is much enhanced.
好吧，一旦你做好了准备，创意进入你想象舞台的可能性就会大大增加。
That's the first stage of revelation.
这是启示的第一阶段。
Then you have to assess that.
然后你必须对此进行评估。
That's discriminating the spirits, you might say.
你可能会说，这就是分别神灵。
You're separating the wheat from the chaff.
你正在将小麦与谷壳分开。
That's critical thinking.
这就是批判性思维。
But all of that, as far as I can tell, is something approximating secularized prayer.
但据我所知，所有这些都近似于世俗化的祈祷。
Set your aim, then observe the manifestation of that aim.
设定你的目标，然后观察该目标的表现。
It's not even magical.
这甚至都不神奇。
It's how your perception works.
这就是你的感知的运作方式。
Now, there's a magic to it because I suppose the magic is that you can think up something you never thought up before.
现在，它有一个魔力，因为我认为魔力在于你可以想出一些你以前从未想过的东西。
How the hell do you do that?
你到底是怎么做到的？
It's more like you experience it, right?
这更像是你经历过的，对吧？
You set your aim.
你设定你的目标。
You have a question.
你有一个问题。
So you're on your knees hoping for an answer.
所以你跪下希望得到答案。
The light bulb goes on.
灯泡亮了。
Well, if that's not revelation, then what the hell is it?
好吧，如果这不是启示，那它到底是什么？
It's the same thing.
这是同样的事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Having spent a good portion of my career digging around in brains, recording from neurons, slicing up brains, staining brains, and from my understanding of neuroscience, and I think by now in almost 2025, we have a fairly good understanding of what different brain areas do, how different circuits interact.
我职业生涯的大部分时间都在研究大脑、记录神经元、切片大脑、染色大脑，以及我对神经科学的理解，我认为到 2025 年，我们对不同大脑区域的作用、不同电路如何相互作用有了相当好的了解。
I don't see how anyone who's really interested in how humans work can not believe in God.
我不明白那些真正对人类工作方式感兴趣的人怎么会不相信上帝。
And I'm not being disparaging of people that don't.
我并不是在贬低那些不这样做的人。
I know people that are atheists.
我认识一些无神论者。
I have some in my family.
我家里有一些。
And I just don't think that the human brain and mind is capable of understanding and managing itself as well as it possibly could in the absence of a concept of God and prayer.
我只是不认为人类的大脑和思想能够在没有上帝和祈祷的概念的情况下理解和管理自己。
And I think there's a lot of historical evidence to support that statement, meaning that this notion of God has been around a very long time.
我认为有很多历史证据支持这一说法，这意味着上帝的这一概念已经存在了很长时间。
This is not a coincidence.
这并非巧合。
Humans have discarded many of the things that other people perhaps came up with.
人类已经抛弃了许多其他人可能想出的东西。
This has been a stable feature of being human for a very long time, of societies for a very long time.
长期以来，这一直是人类、社会的一个稳定特征。
And I've been wanting to ask you, throughout today's conversation, to what extent do you think the different religions and the way that they represent God differently, or in the case of Christianity, God and Jesus Christ, to what extent do you think that the stories and the lessons and the teachings overlap at the level that we're talking about today?
在今天的谈话中，我一直想问你，你认为不同的宗教以及它们代表上帝的方式在多大程度上有所不同，或者就基督教、上帝和耶稣基督而言，你认为故事、教训和教义在我们今天谈论的层面上有多大程度的重叠？
Which is really about a-
这实际上是关于-
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Mm
毫米
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
psychological and neuroscientific level.
心理和神经科学水平。
Seems to me that they all converge on the same themes, but I'm somewhat of a newbie to all-
在我看来，它们都集中在相同的主题上，但我对所有人来说都是新手-
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
to formal prayer and to reading the Bible and so on.
正式的祈祷和阅读圣经等等。
So I like to say, I haven't gotten my jersey yet because I don't deserve it, but I'm showing up to practice this kind of thing.
所以我想说，我还没有得到我的球衣，因为我不配，但我来练习这种事情。
So I'm just curious to what extent you see consistent themes across religions.
所以我只是好奇你在多大程度上看到了跨宗教的一致主题。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Well, the best-
嗯，最好的——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And maybe even to atheism, too.
甚至可能还有无神论。
Like atheism, it's been argued as its own form of religion, perhaps, right?
就像无神论一样，它也被认为是它自己的宗教形式，也许吧？
And for anyone listening, I want to make clear, I don't have any pushback on atheism.
对于所有倾听的人，我想明确表示，我对无神论没有任何抵制。
It's just that for me, really coming to terms with a real belief in God and adopting a prayer practice every single night-
只是对我来说，真正接受对上帝的真正信仰并采取每晚的祈祷练习-
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and also during the day many times, and always before a podcast-
白天也有很多次，而且总是在播客之前-
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
has been just tremendously beneficial to my life.
对我的生活非常有益。
So that's why I'm going to continue to do it.
这就是为什么我要继续这样做。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Why wouldn't I?
我为什么不呢？
But that's the question.
但这就是问题所在。
To what extent do the way that the different religions represent God, you think, across religions converge on common themes?
您认为不同宗教代表上帝的方式在多大程度上趋同于共同的主题？
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Well, I think they converge substantively.
嗯，我认为它们本质上是一致的。
I talked to Camille Paglia about this a few years ago.
几年前我和卡米尔·帕格利亚谈过这个问题。
She's one of the world's foremost literary theorists, and she said something very interesting to me that was quite surprising.
她是世界上最重要的文学理论家之一，她说了一些对我来说非常有趣、令人惊讶的事情。
She said that had the academy turned to Erich Neumann, who was Jung's greatest student, by the way, instead of Foucault, the whole history of the university and the intellectual enterprise over the last five decades would've been entirely different.
她说，顺便说一下，如果学院转向荣格最伟大的学生埃里希·诺依曼而不是福柯，过去五年大学和知识事业的整个历史将会完全不同。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What happened with Foucault?
福柯怎么了？
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Well, Foucault is the most cited scholar who ever lived.
福柯是有史以来被引用次数最多的学者。
And Foucault believes that the story that we act out is one of power, and that's wrong.
福柯认为我们表演的故事是一种权力，但这是错误的。
And it's not just wrong.
这不仅仅是错误的。
It's perversely and dangerously wrong.
这是反常且危险的错误。
I think it's technically wrong as well as being ethically wrong, partly because power does not provide a stable basis for psychological integration or social unity.
我认为这在技术上是错误的，在道德上也是错误的，部分原因是权力不能为心理整合或社会团结提供稳定的基础。
Power might be more effective adaptively than capitulation and dependence, but it's not an optimized solution, not by any stretch of the imagination.
权力可能比投降和依赖更有效，但这不是一个优化的解决方案，无论如何想象都不是。
And I think the data demonstrating that, I think it's incontrovertible, and I outline that in this book, "Will You Wrestle with God?" Erich Neumann, Carl Jung, Mircea Eliade, a host of others, outlined the patterns of religious thinking, and it took them most of the 20th century to do that, and they found recurring themes that are profound.
我认为数据证明了这一点，我认为这是无可争议的，我在这本书中概述了这一点，“你愿意与上帝摔跤吗？”埃里希·诺伊曼（Erich Neumann）、卡尔·荣格（Carl Jung）、米尔恰·埃利亚德（Mircea Eliade）等许多人概述了宗教思维的模式，他们花了 20 世纪的大部分时间才做到这一点，他们发现了反复出现的深刻主题。
So one example, the ancient Egyptians worshiped a god, Horus.
举个例子，古埃及人崇拜荷鲁斯神。
Everyone knows the god Horus because his emblem is the eye, the open eye.
每个人都知道荷鲁斯神，因为他的标志是眼睛，睁开的眼睛。
Well, what does that mean?
嗯，这是什么意思？
It means, in part, that the ancient Egyptians worshiped attention, and they felt that the god of attention was the antidote to the pathological state, and they were right about that.
这在一定程度上意味着古埃及人崇拜注意力，他们认为注意力之神是病理状态的解药，他们的这一点是正确的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
They had a god of the pathological state.
他们有一个病理状态的神。
That was Seth.
那是赛斯。
The god Seth, the name Seth, became Satan through the Coptic Christians.
塞特神，名字叫塞特，通过科普特基督徒变成了撒旦。
So they believed that the degenerate state had a spirit, and the antidote to the spirit of the degenerate state was the all-seeing The all-seeing, upward-striving eye.
所以他们相信末法有灵，而末法之灵的解药就是全知、上进的眼睛。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
And that's right.
没错。
It's like they nailed that.
就好像他们已经做到了这一点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, sounds like what you were saying before.
是的，听起来就像你之前说的那样。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Where you set your sights.
您瞄准的地方。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yes, exactly.
是的，完全正确。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
High and to the heavens, and then to the most proximal thing that's going to deliver you to the next rung.
高高的天空，然后是最近的东西，它将把你带到下一个梯级。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Right.
对。
Well, and there's a difference between attention and thinking.
嗯，注意力和思考之间是有区别的。
Attention is a quest.
关注是一种追求。
If you're paying attention, you're looking, you're seeking, you're knocking, you're asking.
如果你在注意，你在寻找，你在寻找，你在敲门，你在询问。
Right?
正确的？
And the eternal promise is that if you ask, you'll be answered, and if you seek, you'll find.
永恒的应许是，如果你祈求，你就会得到答复；如果你寻找，你就会找到。
And the eye is the gateway to that, and it's the antidote to the degenerate state because the degenerate state, the totalitarian state, insists and tyrannizes, and the open eye seeks.
眼睛是通向这一点的门户，它是堕落国家的解药，因为堕落国家，极权国家，坚持和暴虐，而睁开的眼睛寻求。
Well, the Egyptians figured this out, and the Egyptian theology had a walloping impact on Jewish theology.
好吧，埃及人明白了这一点，埃及神学对犹太神学产生了巨大的影响。
I mean, the Jews came out of Egypt.
我的意思是，犹太人是从埃及出来的。
That's a conception.
这是一个构想。
There are consequences of that conceptually as well as historically.
这在概念上和历史上都会产生后果。
The pattern of the hero's journey, that's replicated, I would say that's the central pattern of story per se, and that makes itself manifest in perhaps all cultures that have managed any unity and any progress whatsoever.
英雄旅程的模式，被复制，我想说，这就是故事本身的中心模式，并且它在所有实现了团结和进步的文化中都得到了体现。
Is there a hierarchy of religious truth?
宗教真理有等级制度吗？
Yes, just as there's a hierarchy in literary depth.
是的，就像文学深度有等级一样。
We understand that a dime store romance is not as profound as a Dostoevsky novel.
我们知道，一毛钱商店的浪漫并不像陀思妥耶夫斯基的小说那么深刻。
We know there's a hierarchy of depth, and you can arrange religious apprehension in terms of a hierarchy of quality.
我们知道存在深度等级，你可以根据质量等级来安排宗教理解。
And I think the Jungian school did that brilliantly.
我认为荣格学派在这方面做得非常出色。
And biologists should know it in far more depth.
生物学家应该更深入地了解它。
The best neuroscientists of emotion and motivation that I knew, and that include Jaak Panksepp-
我所认识的最优秀的情感和动机神经科学家，其中包括雅克·潘克塞普（Jaak Panksepp）——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
...
...
they knew the work of Eliade, for example.
例如，他们了解埃利亚德的作品。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Which of those readings would you recommend for somebody who's interested in psychology and neuroscience explained at that level?
对于那些对心理学和神经科学感兴趣的人，您会推荐哪些读物？
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
I would start with "The Sacred and the Profane" by Eliade, and also Eric Neumann's book, "The Origins and History of Consciousness." That's a harder one because unless you know the lingo of that school, it's hard to understand what he's aiming at.
我将从埃利亚德的《神圣与世俗》开始，还有埃里克·诺伊曼的书《意识的起源和历史》。这是一个更难的问题，因为除非你知道那所学校的行话，否则很难理解他的目标。
If you understand that he's elaborating on the symbolism of the adventurous spirit, that's a good way of thinking about it.
如果你明白他正在阐述冒险精神的象征意义，那么这是一个很好的思考方式。
It's a technical analysis of the structure of heroic expansion of personality.
这是对英雄人格扩张结构的技术分析。
But an easier way in is through Eliade, "Sacred and the Profane." Short book.
但更简单的方法是通过埃利亚德，“神圣与世俗”。短书。
You would read it now knowing that the gods that Eliade describe as warring in the pagan world are in part manifestations of the personality of motivational drive.
你现在读到这本书就会知道，伊利亚德所描述的异教世界中交战的诸神在一定程度上是动机驱动人格的表现。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wow.
哇。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
And the mapping of that war across time, so that's the war of the gods in heaven, which is a very common mythological trope.
这场战争跨越时间的映射，这就是天上众神的战争，这是一个非常常见的神话比喻。
There's a war that integrates towards a monotheism, and Eliade tracked that in multiple cultures, and it's very much worth knowing.
有一场战争向一神论融合，埃利亚德在多种文化中追踪了这一点，这是非常值得了解的。
Because it explains the symbolism of the emergence of the integrated, literate human psyche across tens of thousands of years.
因为它解释了数万年来完整的、有文化的人类心灵的出现的象征意义。
That's captured in story.
这是在故事中捕捉到的。
So imagine this.
所以想象一下。
Here's a way of thinking about it.
这是一种思考方式。
So Tribe A, Tribe B, Tribe C.
所以部落A，部落B，部落C。
Now they all have their highest deity or their panoply of deities.
现在他们都拥有了自己的最高神灵或者神灵全貌。
Now they unite.
现在他们团结起来。
Okay, so as they unite, they fight, they compete, and they cooperate.
好吧，当他们团结起来时，他们会战斗、他们竞争、他们合作。
They kill each other.
他们互相残杀。
They cooperate and trade.
他们合作和贸易。
At the same time that's happening, there's a war in the space of ideas between their respective deities.
与此同时，他们各自的神灵之间在思想空间上发生了一场战争。
And you could think about the human beings acting out that war, just as you could think about the war, the abstraction reflecting the conflict on Earth.
你可以想象人类在这场战争中的表现，就像你可以想象战争一样，这个抽象反映了地球上的冲突。
Well, there's a pattern to that conflict.
嗯，这种冲突有一个模式。
That pattern is quite stable across cultures.
这种模式在不同文化中都相当稳定。
It tilts towards a monotheistic unity insofar as the multiplicity of cultures unifies.
就文化多样性的统一而言，它倾向于一神统一。
Well, obviously.
嗯，显然。
What are they going to unify with in the absence of conceptual unity?
在缺乏概念统一的情况下，它们将与什么相统一？
I don't think so.
我不这么认为。
And why wouldn't it be that the movement towards that conceptual unity, which is the establishment of a larger scale civilization, would involve the battle between ideas of the divine and their integration into something resembling a unity?
为什么走向概念统一的运动，即建立更大规模的文明，不会涉及神圣观念之间的斗争以及它们整合成类似统一的东西呢？
Clearly.
清楚地。
Well, that's part of the proclamation, let's say, of the analytic psychologists that were all part of Carl Jung's school.
好吧，这是卡尔·荣格学派的分析心理学家宣言的一部分。
And the academy just ignored that entirely, except for Camille Paglia, who understands this quite profoundly, and went in the direction of Foucault.
而学院完全忽视了这一点，除了卡米尔·帕格利亚（Camille Paglia），她对此理解相当深刻，并走向了福柯的方向。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
These are these lineages that we were talking about before.
这些就是我们之前讨论过的血统。
It's hard for people to appreciate just how powerful these academic lineages are and scientific lineages are because they set trajectories.
人们很难理解这些学术血统和科学血统有多么强大，因为它们设定了轨迹。
I've been-
我曾经-
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
And they define what's forbidden.
他们定义了禁止的内容。
All the people that advised me as a graduate student, even those who had my best interests firmly in mind, told me to never talk about my interest in Jungian psychology.
所有在我读研究生时为我提供建议的人，甚至是那些牢牢记住我的最大利益的人，都告诉我永远不要谈论我对荣格心理学的兴趣。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Really?
真的吗？
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sorry, I'm laughing because it's so preposterous.
抱歉，我笑了，因为这太荒谬了。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Well, it's not surprising.
嗯，这并不奇怪。
I always did when I went for job interviews, and that definitely was part of what scuttled at me at some of the places I interviewed.
当我参加工作面试时，我总是这样做，这绝对是我在面试的一些地方遇到的问题的一部分。
Now, fortunately, they hired me at Harvard, and so what I was discussing was verboten in many places, but not there.
现在，幸运的是，他们在哈佛雇用了我，所以我所讨论的内容在很多地方都是禁止的，但不是在那里。
So, that worked out quite nicely for me.
所以，这对我来说效果很好。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, I was going to say, clearly it worked out.
是的，我想说，显然它成功了。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I've been meaning to ask you, I've been reading a really interesting book recently that's basically grounded in Adlerian psychology.
我一直想问你，我最近读了一本非常有趣的书，它基本上以阿德勒心理学为基础。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I wasn't familiar with Adlerian psychology.
我不熟悉阿德勒心理学。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Adler's very practical.
阿德勒非常实用。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The book talks about Adler as a as a counterpoint to Freud and Jung.
这本书将阿德勒视为弗洛伊德和荣格的对立面。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
What's the book?
这本书是什么？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The book is called "The Courage to Be Disliked."
这本书的名字叫《被讨厌的勇气》。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I highly recommend it to everybody.
我强烈推荐给大家。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It was actually written by a Japanese author.
其实是日本作家写的。
I think there are two Japanese authors.
我认为有两个日本作家。
It didn't get quite so popular in this country, but it had a big following in Japan, and I think in other places in Asia.
它在这个国家并没有那么受欢迎，但它在日本有很多追随者，我想在亚洲其他地方也是如此。
And the book is set up as a conversation between, essentially, a philosopher of Adlerian psychology and a student who's challenging him.
这本书本质上是一位阿德勒心理学哲学家和一位挑战他的学生之间的对话。
So it's a conversation that raises all the challenges that would come to one's mind if you were to be presented with this idea of life tasks, and that we're supposed to discard with our thoughts about prior trauma and just figure out what are our tasks now.
所以，如果你被提出这样的人生任务的想法，那么这个对话提出了一个人脑海中会出现的所有挑战，我们应该放弃对之前创伤的想法，而只是弄清楚我们现在的任务是什么。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I like the practicality of it.
我喜欢它的实用性。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Adler's very practical.
阿德勒非常实用。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, I like that.
是的，我喜欢这样。
I was just curious what your thoughts were about that.
我只是好奇你对此有何想法。
It seems to fit quite well with your notions and what you've talked about in multiple books, including the most recent one, the one that's out now, about getting really serious about what your tasks are at this moment in time and embracing those tasks as a way to progress forward-
它似乎非常符合你的观念以及你在多本书中所讨论的内容，包括最近出版的一本，即现在出版的一本，关于认真对待你目前的任务是什么，并将这些任务作为前进的一种方式——
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
as opposed to floundering in notions about the past.
而不是在关于过去的观念中挣扎。
And I think it might hit some people square upside the head when there's, I think one of the chapters opens with the words, "There's no such thing as trauma," which is clearly not true.
我认为，当其中一章以“不存在创伤这样的东西”开头时，这可能会击中一些人的头脑，这显然是不正确的。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But the whole idea is to prompt a different way of thinking.
但整个想法是为了激发一种不同的思维方式。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And to let people start to drill into, "Okay, what do I need to do now, regardless of what my parents did or didn't do?"
让人们开始深入思考，“好吧，无论我的父母做了什么或没有做什么，我现在需要做什么？”
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Regardless of my damaged self.
不管我受伤的自我。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Regardless of my damaged self.
不管我受伤的自我。
And I must say, I really like the book.
我必须说，我真的很喜欢这本书。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Well, I would say-
嗯，我会说——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or I should say, I really like the concept of embracing task while agonizing over the meaning of life and what one is to do.
或者我应该说，我真的很喜欢接受任务的概念，同时思考生命的意义和一个人应该做什么。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yes.
是的。
Well, Adler was the most practical of the small crowd that aggregated around Freud.
嗯，阿德勒是聚集在弗洛伊德周围的一小群人中最实际的一个。
And so Jung's take was that Freud focused on sex, and Adler focused on power, and Jung focused on what transcended both, and I think that's right.
所以荣格的观点是，弗洛伊德关注性，阿德勒关注权力，荣格关注超越两者的东西，我认为这是正确的。
Now, Adler is a good riposte to Freud in exactly the way you describe.
现在，阿德勒正是按照你所描述的方式对弗洛伊德进行了很好的反击。
If you like that book and you're interested in all three of them, let's say, there's a great book called "Discovery of the Unconscious," which was written by a man named Henri Ellenberger, who was the foremost exponent of existential psychology in the 1950s.
如果您喜欢那本书并且对三本书都感兴趣，那么可以说，有一本很棒的书，名为《潜意识的发现》，作者是亨利·埃伦伯格 (Henri Ellenberger)，他是 20 世纪 50 年代存在主义心理学的最重要的倡导者。
Brilliant scholar, and it is the best analysis of Freud, Jung, and Adler that's ever been written by a lot.
才华横溢的学者，这是迄今为止对弗洛伊德、荣格和阿德勒的最好的分析。
And it's a truly great book.
这真是一本很棒的书。
He also traces the idea of the unconscious back 350 years before Freud, so it's a masterful study.
他还将无意识的概念追溯到弗洛伊德之前 350 年前，因此这是一项出色的研究。
But I liked Adler, and he was much less charismatic than Freud and Jung, and so his star didn't shine as brightly.
但我喜欢阿德勒，他的魅力远不如弗洛伊德和荣格，所以他的明星没有那么耀眼。
But he's very practically oriented, and much of his thinking, would you say, fits quite nicely with the same kind of bottom-up approach that a more behaviorally oriented psychotherapist would employ.
但他非常注重实践，你会说，他的大部分想法非常适合更注重行为的心理治疗师所采用的自下而上的方法。
So look, there are some people, if you're engaging in a therapeutic process with someone, there are people who are best engaged with at the level of concept.
所以看，有些人，如果你正在与某人一起参与治疗过程，有些人在概念层面上参与得最好。
Those are people who are high in trait openness.
这些人的特质开放性很高。
Not everyone's like that.
不是每个人都是这样的。
In fact, most people aren't like that.
事实上，大多数人并不是这样的。
Jungian psychology works really well on highly creative people, and almost all Jung's clients were creative because they wouldn't have come to him otherwise.
荣格心理学对高度创造力的人非常有效，几乎所有荣格的客户都很有创造力，否则他们不会来找他。
And there's also people for whom sexual dysfunction and trauma are the primary preoccupation of their life and the past.
还有一些人的性功能障碍和创伤是他们生活和过去的主要关注点。
And Freud serves them well.
弗洛伊德为他们提供了很好的服务。
Adler's very practical, and if you're looking for a psychologist to help you figure out how you could advance from where you are now, he's got plenty of things to say that are good.
阿德勒非常务实，如果你正在寻找一位心理学家来帮助你弄清楚如何才能从现在的状态取得进步，他有很多好话要说。
He also wasn't as good a literary stylist as Jung or Freud, so that also put him off to the side to some degree.
他也不像荣格或弗洛伊德那样优秀的文学文体家，因此这也在某种程度上使他被边缘化。
But anyways, a deeper investigation can certainly be found in "Discovery of the Unconscious." And for anybody listening and watching who's interested in psychological ideas broadly and would like familiarity with the psychoanalytic tradition, Freud, Jung, and Adler, let's say, primarily, there is not a better book than "Discovery of the Unconscious." It's really a work of genius.
但无论如何，在《无意识的发现》中肯定可以找到更深入的调查。对于任何对心理学思想广泛感兴趣并希望熟悉精神分析传统、弗洛伊德、荣格和阿德勒的听众和观看者来说，首先可以说，没有比《潜意识的发现》更好的书了。这真是一件天才之作。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You know what's missing from the literature?
你知道文献中缺少什么吗？
Thank you for those, by the way, is a really excellent up-to-date book on neuroscience and the mind and psychology.
顺便说一句，谢谢你们，这是一本关于神经科学、心智和心理学的非常优秀的最新书籍。
Perhaps we write one together.
也许我们一起写一篇。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Well, that's a thing.
嗯，这是一件事。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I mean, it's just not out there.
我的意思是，它不在那里。
There are textbooks on neuroscience.
有神经科学的教科书。
There's a lot of discussion, as you know, about free will, lack of free will, depending on which author you're paying attention to.
如您所知，有很多关于自由意志、缺乏自由意志的讨论，具体取决于您关注的作者。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But there isn't really a satisfactory book about the brain, the mind, and psychology.
但目前还没有一本关于大脑、心智和心理学的真正令人满意的书。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It just doesn't exist.
它根本不存在。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah, the closest one I ever encountered probably is "Affective Neuroscience," Panksepp's book.
是的，我遇到过的最接近的可能是潘克塞普的书《情感神经科学》。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
I must say, you've mentioned Panksepp a few times, and Jaak Panksepp, as some of you may know, but perhaps most of you don't, was such a gift to science.
我必须说，您曾多次提到潘克塞普，而雅克·潘克塞普（Jaak Panksepp），正如你们中的一些人可能知道的那样，但也许你们中的大多数人不知道，他是科学的一份礼物。
And the fact that, I think the first time I heard you lecture in one of your YouTube lectures, you mentioned Jaak Panksepp, and I thought, "Okay, this guy knows the good stuff," because he was the first one to talk about juvenile play as a way of exploring circuitry-
事实上，我想我第一次在 YouTube 演讲中听到你演讲时，你提到了 Jaak Panksepp，我想，“好吧，这家伙知道好东西，”因为他是第一个谈论青少年游戏作为探索电路的一种方式的人 -
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and social dynamics.
和社会动态。
Such a-
这样的一个——
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
And by the way, that fit perfectly with Piaget's observations of childhood socialization.
顺便说一句，这与皮亚杰对儿童社会化的观察完全吻合。
It's like I came across Panksepp and I thought, "Oh, that's so cool.
就像我遇到了潘克塞普，我想，“哦，那太酷了。
Now we have the psychophysiological basis for Piagetian developmental theory." It was perfect.
现在我们有了皮亚杰发展理论的心理生理学基础。”太完美了。
Yeah, so that was lovely concordance.
是的，这是一个很好的一致性。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Panksepp would have been far more recognized, he was at Bowling Green University, I think.
我认为潘克塞普在鲍灵格林大学会更受认可。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And so smaller university, perhaps, I don't know.
也许规模较小的大学，我不知道。
I didn't ever hear a lecture, and maybe not as charismatic as some of the other luminaries of neuroscience at that time but-
我从来没有听过演讲，也许不像当时其他一些神经科学杰出人物那样有魅力，但是——
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah, I don't know how he was as a lecturer.
是的，我不知道他作为讲师怎么样。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I don't know.
我不知道。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
He's a great writer, and man, he had an unerring eye for the right problems in terms of psychological investigation, and very brave in that regard.
他是一位伟大的作家，而且他对心理调查方面的正确问题有着准确无误的眼光，并且在这方面非常勇敢。
He studied ...
他研究...
laughter in rats.
老鼠的笑声。
And you think, oh, of all the absurd things to focus on.
你会想到，哦，所有值得关注的荒谬事情。
It's like, no, you just don't understand where the goal is.
就像，不，你只是不明白目标在哪里。
Or play among rats.
或者和老鼠一起玩耍。
Who cares that rats play?
谁在乎老鼠玩耍？
Well, that would be the sort of research proposal that would be pilloried by sensible Republicans looking to trim government waste.
好吧，这将是一种会受到寻求削减政府浪费的明智共和党人嘲笑的研究提案。
It's like, no, that was the heart of the matter, right?
好像，不，这才是问题的核心，对吧？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Rats organize their social hierarchy through play, not through force.
老鼠通过游戏而不是武力来组织他们的社会等级。
Right?
正确的？
That's a big discovery.
这是一个重大发现。
I think he should've won a Nobel Prize.
我认为他应该获得诺贝尔奖。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I do, too.
我也是。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
He should've won a Nobel for a variety of his discoveries, but that one in particular.
他本应因其多项发现而获得诺贝尔奖，但尤其是这一发现。
Rats have an implicit morality.
老鼠有一种隐含的道德。
That's a major league discovery, and it's based on play.
这是大联盟的一个发现，而且是基于比赛的。
Wow.
哇。
Stunning.
令人惊叹的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And we see the same thing in kids, obviously.
显然，我们在孩子身上也看到了同样的情况。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Well, we see the same thing in chimpanzees.
嗯，我们在黑猩猩身上也看到了同样的情况。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
It's pretty strange to understand that dominance hierarchies, if they're functional, are often organized in consequence of play, not force.
理解统治等级制度（如果它们有效的话）通常是根据游戏而不是武力来组织的，这很奇怪。
So much for Foucault.
福柯就讲这么多。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
When you look out on the landscape of social media, do you see elements of that as well, that there's sort of a playfulness among people that's establishing a hierarchy?
当你观察社交媒体的格局时，你是否也看到了其中的元素，即人们之间存在着某种建立等级制度的嬉戏？
It seems like Elon's having a good time with his rockets and his X and Tesla and-
看起来埃隆和他的火箭、他的 X 和特斯拉玩得很开心，还有——
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
I think that the antithesis of tyranny is play.
我认为暴政的对立面是游戏。
It took me a long time to realize that.
我花了很长时间才意识到这一点。
I've been studying evil intensely since I was about 13, and evil is easier to define than good.
我从 13 岁左右起就开始深入研究邪恶，而邪恶比正义更容易定义。
It's hard to find a category that integrates all that's good that you can point to simply.
很难找到一个类别来整合所有你可以简单指出的好东西。
But the fact that play is the antithesis of tyranny seems to be a pretty good summation.
但事实上，游戏是暴政的对立面，这似乎是一个很好的总结。
Panksepp showed, for example, that play wouldn't emerge among animals if they were possessed by any other motivational state.
例如，潘克塞普表明，如果动物处于任何其他动机状态，它们就不会出现游戏。
Things have to be set up very carefully before play will emerge.
在游戏出现之前，必须非常仔细地设置事情。
Your house is optimally structured if your children can play.
如果您的孩子可以玩耍，您的房子的结构就是最佳的。
Your marriage is optimally structured if you're playing house with your wife.
如果你和你的妻子一起过家家，你的婚姻结构就是最佳的。
And I think that that reality of the, what would you say, the optimally superordinate nature of play, that makes itself manifest when you're watching someone who's a master at their task, and Musk is playing.
我认为，你会说，游戏的最佳优越性的现实，当你看到一个擅长完成任务的人，而马斯克正在玩时，这一点就会显现出来。
And Trump plays, too.
特朗普也上场了。
It's one of the things that made me less uncertain about him.
这是让我对他不再那么不确定的事情之一。
He's deadly funny.
他真是太有趣了。
Now, it's rough.
现在，情况很艰难。
He plays rough, no doubt about it, but he's got a ridiculously comic touch, and that's not something that's generally characteristic of psychopathic dictators.
毫无疑问，他行事粗暴，但他有一种荒唐的喜剧色彩，而这并不是精神病态独裁者的普遍特征。
Hitler wasn't known for his sense of humor.
希特勒并不以幽默感而闻名。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Let's talk about sense of humor, if you don't mind, because I think it's something that's sorely lacking in a lot of the discourse among adults, so to speak, and these days, I think a lot about what young people are observing.
如果你不介意的话，我们来谈谈幽默感吧，因为我认为这是成年人之间的很多讨论中非常缺乏的东西，可以这么说，而这些天，我思考了很多关于年轻人所观察到的事情。
A few years back, I was watching this show, I didn't like it, forgive me, because I think the actor was quite good, but the show was "Californication"-
几年前，我在看这个节目，我不喜欢它，请原谅我，因为我认为演员很好，但节目是“加州淫乱”-
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Oh
噢
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
with David Duchovny.
与大卫·杜楚尼。
And I realized this show is all about the adults acting like children and the children acting like adults.
我意识到这个节目完全是关于成年人像孩子一样行事和孩子们像成年人一样行事。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Oh yeah, that's a typical Hollywood inversion.
哦，是的，这是典型的好莱坞反转。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I thought, "This is terrible." Not because I'm some sort of moral avenger or something, but it was sort of like the question I've been asking myself a lot over the last few years is, who are the adults in the room?
我想：“这太可怕了。”不是因为我是某种道德复仇者之类的，而是有点像过去几年我一直在问自己的问题是，房间里的成年人是谁？
Who's actually regulating all this stuff that's happening?
谁真正在监管正在发生的所有这些事情？
Everyone's in disagreement.
大家意见不一。
People are misbehaving in the worst of ways by not treating each other with respect.
人们不尊重彼此，就会做出最糟糕的行为。
Occasionally, you'd see a discourse that felt meaningful and structured or explorative in the real sense, like people were there to learn.
偶尔，你会看到一种真正意义上有意义、结构化或探索性的话语，就像人们在那里学习一样。
I think that's been one of the successes of your work and of Rogan's work, and I like to think my podcast as well.
我认为这是你和罗根工作的成功之一，我也喜欢思考我的播客。
Lex Fridman certainly, and others, right?
当然是莱克斯·弗里德曼（Lex Fridman），还有其他人，对吧？
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sometimes people use comedy, sometimes people use neuroscience as a probe.
有时人们使用喜剧，有时人们使用神经科学作为探索。
But in any case, I've been concerned that there isn't this kind of enjoyment of discourse between people that disagree in a way that includes forgiveness or like, "Ah, good one.
但无论如何，我一直担心，不同意见的人之间不会有这种愉快的谈话，包括宽恕或类似“啊，好一个。
You got me." And it seems like it's degenerated into things that are so nasty, and it's sort of like people are entering the game, if you could even call it that, with a refusal to shift.
你抓住了我。”看起来它已经退化成了如此令人讨厌的东西，这有点像人们正在进入游戏，如果你甚至可以这样称呼它的话，拒绝转变。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Oh.
哦。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's not a debate.
这不是一场辩论。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
That's what happens when-
这就是发生的情况——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There's nothing playful about it.
没有什么好玩的。
You have to be willing to have a winner and a loser, and you have to be willing to be either one if you're going to engage in real discourse, in real play.
你必须愿意有赢家和输家，如果你想参与真正的对话、真正的比赛，你必须愿意成为其中任何一个。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And to me, it's like, okay, I can manage seeing all that or participate or not participate to the extent that I want, but for young people, it's got to be really discouraging.
对我来说，好吧，我可以设法看到这一切，或者参与或不参与到我想要的程度，但对于年轻人来说，这确实令人沮丧。
It's like you either dunk on somebody or get dunked on.
这就像你要么在某人身上扣篮，要么被别人扣篮。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Well, I guess the optimistic riposte to that would be the fact that the people that you're pointing to, like Rogan, who is a comedian-
好吧，我想对此的乐观回击是你所指的人，比如喜剧演员罗根——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
...
...
like many of the people who've become extremely successful as podcasters, Konstantin Kisin, Russell Brand, Dave Rubin, Crowder, Steven Crowder, Theo Von.
就像许多作为播客极其成功的人一样，康斯坦丁·基辛、拉塞尔·布兰德、戴夫·鲁宾、克劳德、史蒂文·克劳德、西奥·冯。
That's a lot of comedians.
这是很多喜剧演员。
So there's a lot of play in the alternative media, and a lot of young people are being informed by the alternative media.
因此，另类媒体有很多发挥作用，很多年轻人正在通过另类媒体获得信息。
So I think there's genuine room for optimism there.
所以我认为那里确实有乐观的空间。
And there's plenty of play in those podcasts.
这些播客中有很多内容。
Now, a group of us eight years ago, seven years ago, put out an offer to the Democratic powers that be to invite the Democrats to come and talk to us.
现在，我们中的一群人八年前、七年前向民主党势力提出了邀请民主党来与我们交谈的提议。
Rubin was part of that.
鲁宾就是其中的一部分。
Rogan was part of that, if I remember correctly.
如果我没记错的话，罗根也参与其中。
I'm quite certain of it.
我对此非常确定。
I was part of that.
我也是其中的一部分。
Shapiro was part of that.
夏皮罗就是其中的一部分。
This was a genuine invitation, which was extended many times in serious ways by people who are very well-connected among the Democratic elite, and that came to nothing.
这是一份真诚的邀请，民主党精英中关系密切的人曾多次以严肃的方式发出邀请，但最终没有结果。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They wanted no part of it?
他们不想参与其中？
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
No. They'd speak to me, for example, privately, never publicly, virtually never.
不。例如，他们会私下与我交谈，从不公开，几乎从不。
Almost without exception.
几乎无一例外。
All the while, the alternative media was gaining more and more power.
与此同时，另类媒体的影响力也越来越大。
All the while, we were telling them, "This isn't optional.
一直以来，我们都在告诉他们：“这不是可选的。
Your legacy media foothold is dying.
您的传统媒体立足点正在消亡。
Wake up." Well, Rogan, for example, you could imagine that he would be on board with such a thing because he's not precisely your stereotypical Republican.
醒醒吧。”好吧，例如罗根，你可以想象他会同意这样的事情，因为他并不完全是你刻板印象的共和党人。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No.
不。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Well...
嗯...
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, not at all.
不，一点也不。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
People will call him that.
人们会这样称呼他。
They try and manosphere bro, whatever.
不管怎样，他们会尝试操纵兄弟。
The reality falls so far from that when you just-
现实与此相去甚远，当你——
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah, it's just-
是的，这只是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, he was like-
不，他就像——
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
It's just not true at all.
这根本不是真的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, that's not true.
不，那不是真的。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So there is plenty of play, and so I think we can be positive about that, and I think young people, too, have seen how successful that can be.
所以有很多比赛，所以我认为我们可以对此持积极态度，而且我认为年轻人也已经看到了这会取得多么成功。
Rogan and his coterie, let's say, wiped out the legacy media.
可以说，罗根和他的小圈子消灭了传统媒体。
Well, so you can see what the spirit of playful adventure can do in a very short period of time.
好吧，所以你可以看到有趣的冒险精神可以在很短的时间内发挥什么作用。
Now, there's technological reasons for that, too, but technological reasons or not, it's still a stunning phenomenon and a stunning accomplishment, and a very positive one as far as I'm concerned, and hopefully it will continue.
现在，这也有技术原因，但无论是否有技术原因，这仍然是一个令人惊叹的现象和令人惊叹的成就，就我而言，这是一个非常积极的成就，希望它能够继续下去。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, the power pendulum has definitely swung-
是的，动力的钟摆肯定已经摆动了——
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in a different direction.
朝不同的方向。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Well, that became starkly obvious when Rogan interviewed Trump.
好吧，当罗根采访特朗普时，这一点变得非常明显。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
That was the death knell of the legacy media.
这是传统媒体的丧钟。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It certainly elevated podcasts and their impact and significance across the board.
它无疑全面提升了播客及其影响力和重要性。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Well, I think it demonstrated the fact that they had been elevated, right?
嗯，我认为这证明了他们已经被提升了，对吗？
It was evidence of that which was so conclusive that there was no longer any way of questioning it.
这是确凿无疑的证据，以至于没有任何办法可以质疑它。
Even the CNN pundits and so forth, who were very resistant to that as a hypothesis, changed their tune very rapidly.
即使是美国有线电视新闻网（CNN）的专家等，他们非常抵制这一假设，但也很快改变了态度。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, and it was interesting because Rogan's conversation with Trump was a serious one.
嗯，这很有趣，因为罗根与特朗普的谈话很严肃。
Theo's conversation with Trump was a mixture of serious and less serious, and I couldn't help but smile big when at the inauguration, the thanks went out to a number of people, including Theo Von.
西奥与特朗普的谈话既严肃又不那么严肃，在就职典礼上我忍不住笑了，感谢包括西奥·冯在内的很多人。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
If you think about this-
如果你想到这一点——
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
I know.
我知道。
I know
我知道
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
you think about like-
你会想——
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
It's so funny.
太搞笑了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm yet-
我还——
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Good for Theo.
对西奥有好处。
It's so funny.
太搞笑了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
I've yet to meet him.
我还没有见到他。
I hear he's a very nice guy.
我听说他是一个非常好的人。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Oh, I really like Theo.
哦，我真的很喜欢提奥。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Theo's so great because Theo is backwoods hip to the core, right?
西奥之所以如此伟大，是因为西奥是一个彻头彻尾的穷乡僻壤，对吧？
Seriously.
严重地。
Underclass background, and it's real, and he's so bloody smart.
底层出身，这是真实的，而且他非常聪明。
And so it's such a fun combination because he's got this...
所以这是一个非常有趣的组合，因为他有这个......
It's pretty easy if you're elitist to be derisive about Theo and his backwoods-y stick, but man, there's a first-rate mind lurking behind that.
如果你是精英主义者，你很容易嘲笑西奥和他的偏僻棍子，但是伙计，这背后潜藏着一流的思想。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
It's not a persona because it's actually him, too.
这不是一个角色，因为它实际上也是他。
I can relate to that to a large degree because I came from a very small town way the hell out in the middle of nowhere, and so I have plenty in common with Theo.
我在很大程度上能体会到这一点，因为我来自一个非常偏僻的小镇，所以我和西奥有很多共同点。
But it's very funny to watch.
但看起来很有趣。
It's very funny to see him do this successfully.
看到他成功做到这一点真是太有趣了。
It's ridiculously and preposterously comical that he got to sit down with Trump.
他竟然能和特朗普坐下来，这真是荒唐可笑。
I just thought that's so funny, and that it was successful and playful.
我只是觉得这很有趣，而且很成功而且很有趣。
That's great.
那太棒了。
And there's plenty of play in the Republican renaissance at the moment, whatever that is.
不管是什么，目前共和党的复兴有很多活动。
Republican, to call it that is like that's...
共和党，这么称呼它就像那样......
Whatever the hell's happening, it's not conceptualizable in terms of our normal political dichotomy, right?
无论到底发生了什么，它都无法用我们正常的政治二分法来概念化，对吧？
We're in uncharted water.
我们正处于未知的水域。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Now, hopefully, this is why I hope the Democrats get their act together, because every administration needs an opposition, and if the Democrats continue with this woke idiocy, they're not going to be able to serve as the proper corrective to the excesses that will definitely emerge in the Trump administration, especially if they face no credible opposition.
现在，希望这就是为什么我希望民主党团结起来，因为每届政府都需要反对派，如果民主党继续这种觉醒的白痴行为，他们将无法对特朗普政府肯定会出现的过激行为做出适当的纠正，特别是如果他们没有面临可信的反对派的话。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Before we-
在我们之前——
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Because that always happens.
因为这种事总是会发生。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sorry, didn't mean to interrupt.
抱歉，无意打扰。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Didn't mean to interrupt.
并没有打扰的意思。
Before we started, we were touching on this a little bit, and you said something which was that you're hoping for a really formidable, strong Democratic Party to counter the Republican Party, and you're saying it again now.
在我们开始之前，我们稍微谈到了这一点，您说过，您希望有一个真正强大的民主党来对抗共和党，现在您又说了一遍。
You're concerned that if there isn't one, that power-
你担心如果没有的话，那种力量——
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Corrupts
腐败分子
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
might run amok.
可能会发脾气。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Oh, yes.
哦，是的。
Well, of course it will.
嗯，当然会。
It always does.
总是如此。
And that the Republicans themselves who might wish well, this remarkable group of people that's aggregated around Trump, it's like they should hope for themselves that they have an effective opposition because someone's got to be telling you where you're stupid.
共和党人本身可能希望，这群聚集在特朗普周围的杰出人士，就像他们应该希望自己有一个有效的反对派，因为必须有人告诉你你在哪里愚蠢。
And if the Democrats...
如果民主党...
So this is another public invitation to the Democrats, which must be the 50th one that I've issued.
这是我向民主党发出的另一次公开邀请，这应该是我发出的第 50 次邀请。
If you have something to say, I'd be happy to talk, and so would many people who've expressed similar sentiment to me in the alternative media world.
如果你有话要说，我很乐意与你交谈，在另类媒体世界中向我表达过类似观点的许多人也很乐意与你交谈。
And that offer has been on the table for years.
这个提议已经提了很多年了。
So I hope that...
所以我希望...
I'm afraid that all the people with any real courage, or virtually all of them, be chased out of the Democratic Party.
恐怕所有有真正勇气的人，或者几乎所有的人，都会被赶出民主党。
They're all afraid of being canceled, which is why they wouldn't appear on my podcast to begin with.
他们都害怕被取消，这就是为什么他们一开始就不会出现在我的播客上。
It's like, "Why does Peterson always interview conservatives?" It's like, "Well, how about because they'll talk to me?" There's a simple explanation and definitely a true one.
就像，“为什么彼得森总是采访保守派？”就像，“好吧，因为他们会跟我说话怎么样？”有一个简单的解释，而且绝对是正确的。
So maybe that can shift, and there's got to be somebody in the Democrats who's got enough courage to forge a new direction.
因此，也许这种情况可以改变，民主党中必须有人有足够的勇气来开辟新的方向。
And if they want to continue with this same old pattern of woke idiocy, well, go right ahead.
如果他们想继续这种愚蠢的老模式，那么，就继续吧。
It's not going to work.
这是行不通的。
The tide's already turned in that regard.
在这方面潮流已经发生了转变。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think that judging from some of the article titles that I've seen at "New York Times" and other venues, it seems like there might be some consideration about this.
我想，从我在《纽约时报》和其他地方看到的一些文章标题来看，似乎有一些考虑。
They're talking about a restructuring of the Democratic Party.
他们正在谈论民主党的重组。
Who's going to lead?
谁来领导？
Who's going to be their Joe Rogan, which is, by the way, a silly question.
顺便说一下，谁将成为他们的乔·罗根，这是一个愚蠢的问题。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
It's so-
是这样的——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's just the silliest question
这只是最愚蠢的问题
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
...
...
it's such a funny question.
这是一个很有趣的问题。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
He is, as we say in science, he's N of one.
正如我们在科学中所说，他是其中之一。
Don't even try.
甚至不要尝试。
The whole point is to create-
重点是创造——
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Well, also you-
嗯，还有你——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, why would you?
嗯，你为什么要这么做呢？
Yeah
是啊
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
...
...
you also can't.
你也不能。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Right.
正确的。
It's impossible.
这是不可能的。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Joe didn't emerge by accident.
乔的出现并非偶然。
Joe is very smart.
乔很聪明。
Very.
非常。
And if you think, it's what?
如果你认为，那是什么？
It's like Joe built this?
就像乔建的这个？
It's not the way that a political party would build it.
这不是政党建立它的方式。
First of all, he didn't build it, not that way, not through a priori planning so that the Democrats could have a voice.
首先，他并没有建立它，不是那样的，不是通过先验的计划来让民主党有发言权的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's just him being him.
这只是他就是他。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yes, exactly.
是的，完全正确。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
And someone who is a self-declared Democrat will do that as well, but not by trying to be him.
自称为民主党人的人也会这样做，但不会试图成为他。
That's just not going to happen.
那是不会发生的。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
No. They'll do that by trying to figure out what the opposition to this new peculiar band of Republicans should be, and what sort of vision could be put forward that would be attractive.
不。他们将通过试图找出对这支新的特殊共和党人的反对派应该是什么，以及可以提出什么样的愿景来做到这一点是有吸引力的。
I read today some Democrat claiming that the Democrats are the true voice of the working class.
我今天读到一些民主党人声称民主党是工人阶级的真正声音。
It's like, I don't think so.
就好像，我不这么认为。
I think that ship has sailed, and maybe the Democrats should be the true voice of the working class, but they're certainly not.
我认为船已经起航了，也许民主党应该是工人阶级的真正代言人，但他们肯定不是。
And in principle, that would mean that there's an opportunity there on the Democrat side to forge a new path.
原则上，这意味着民主党有机会开辟一条新道路。
Clinton managed that in the '90s.
克林顿在 90 年代做到了这一点。
This has happened many times.
这种情况已经发生过很多次了。
It could happen again, but there's a lot of learning that's going to have to take place before that happens.
它可能会再次发生，但在此之前必须进行大量学习。
So certainly, learning about this new alternative media environment.
当然，了解这种新的替代媒体环境。
If you can't sit down for three hours and say what you actually think, actually what you think, right, regardless of what it might do to your reputation, let's say, you're not going to be successful in the podcast world.
如果你不能坐下来三个小时说出你的实际想法，实际上你的想法，对吧，不管这可能对你的声誉产生什么影响，比方说，你不会在播客世界取得成功。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's absolutely true.
这绝对是真的。
Podcasting is real.
播客是真实的。
I'll just say, because perhaps it's of interest or maybe even actionable for people, I get a little frightened every podcast, certainly if I'm going to talk about forming this relationship to prayer or I'm exploring-- I'll talk about circuits in the brain all day long with no fear whatsoever.
我只想说，因为也许它对人们来说很有趣，甚至可能是可行的，所以我对每个播客都有点害怕，当然，如果我要谈论与祈祷形成这种关系或者我正在探索——我会整天谈论大脑中的回路，没有任何恐惧。
That's my wheelhouse.
那是我的驾驶室。
But anything that's new, which is a real exploration and evolution of where I'm at, of course is going to evoke fear.
但任何新事物，即对我所处位置的真正探索和演变，当然都会引起恐惧。
I also know that's where the growth is.
我也知道这就是成长所在。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I would hate for this podcast to look the way it did on episode one now.
我讨厌这个播客现在看起来像第一集那样。
And clearly, this conversation is a new direction that I've not taken before in this podcast, but I'm delighted that it's happening, I want to say that.
显然，这次对话是我之前在这个播客中从未采用过的新方向，但我很高兴它正在发生，我想说。
And I think that some level of fear and anxiety about the unknown is absolutely required.
我认为对未知事物有一定程度的恐惧和焦虑是绝对必要的。
And I think that that's something that hopefully any, especially young people listening need to know.
我认为这是希望任何人，尤其是年轻人都需要知道的事情。
You're not supposed to perform well at the outset.
你不应该一开始就表现良好。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In anything.
在任何事情上。
You're not.
你不。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Well, you can't.
好吧，你不能。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You're not.
你不是。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
That's why Jung said the fool is the precursor to the redeemer.
这就是为什么荣格说愚者是救赎者的先驱。
You have to accept the role of fool voluntarily before you can improve.
你必须自愿接受傻瓜的角色，然后才能进步。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Of course, when you start something new, you're going to be an idiot.
当然，当你开始新事物时，你就会成为一个白痴。
What do you know?
你知道什么？
So that's the price of entry is to be a fool.
这就是成为傻瓜的入门代价。
Well, you can be a voluntary fool, and then you have a bit of a sense of humor about yourself, and that takes the sting out of it, and maybe even makes you an attractive character despite your ignorance.
好吧，你可以自愿成为一个傻瓜，然后你对自己有一点幽默感，这就消除了它的刺痛，甚至可能使你成为一个有吸引力的角色，尽管你无知。
People will make tremendous allowances for ignorance that's voluntarily admitted to.
人们会对自愿承认的无知给予极大的宽容。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I've certainly made mistakes publicly, apologized for the ones that I felt I should apologize for.
我确实公开犯过错误，为那些我认为应该道歉的错误道歉。
There's a slip of the tongue and said something, went back and corrected it.
说漏嘴了，回去改正。
It was embarrassing, but the ability to laugh at oneself is tremendously powerful.
虽然很尴尬，但自嘲的能力却非常强大。
Genuinely laugh.
真心地笑。
It's just thinking like, "Ah, God, where was I thinking?
它只是在想，“啊，上帝，我在想什么？
I understand this." Blah, blah, blah.
我明白这一点。”巴拉，巴拉，巴拉。
Sometimes we err.
有时我们会犯错。
I have a couple of questions about you.
我有几个关于你的问题。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Uh-oh.
呃哦。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I know you're the clinician, and I'm not trying to play that role.
我知道你是临床医生，我不想扮演这个角色。
When you wake up in the morning, is your mind in a good place typically, or are you tormented?
当你早上醒来时，你的头脑通常处于良好状态，还是感到痛苦？
Where does your mind land most mornings, first thing?
大多数早上你的思绪都在哪里？
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Well, I've suffered from a proclivity towards depression my whole life, I would say.
嗯，我想说，我一生都患有抑郁症。
And I would say the roughest part of the day for me is morning, although it's way better than it once was.
我想说对我来说一天中最艰难的部分是早上，尽管它比以前好多了。
So when I get up, I have a shower and make my bed and do something useful, and then I'm pretty much on my way, and that's fine.
所以当我起床时，我会冲个澡，整理床铺，做一些有用的事情，然后我就差不多上路了，这很好。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You're into your tasks, into the day.
你专注于你的任务，专注于这一天。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
And I still have quite a lot of pain from whatever happened to me a couple of years ago, and so that's annoying.
几年前发生在我身上的事情仍然给我带来很大的痛苦，所以这很烦人。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Physical pain?
身体疼痛？
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
But psychologically, my life is ridiculously, it's absurdly interesting.
但从心理上来说，我的生活是荒谬的、有趣的。
It's crazily and absurdly interesting all the time.
它一直都非常有趣且荒唐。
And so anyone with any sense would be open-mouthed in amazement and gratitude for that.
所以任何有理智的人都会对此感到惊讶和感激。
It's preposterous.
这太荒谬了。
And I have this tour that's going, well, it's been going for six years really, and it continues.
我的巡演正在进行，嗯，实际上已经进行了六年，而且还在继续。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Your tour schedule is superhuman.
你的旅行日程安排得超人。
I have to say, having done some live shows, what you do with tours, and I've been to one of your shows, I highly recommend people attend.
我不得不说，在完成了一些现场表演、巡演之后，我也去过你们的一场演出，我强烈建议人们参加。
It was spectacular.
太壮观了。
I don't want to give too much away, but it's Not planned in the sense that there's a script or something.
我不想透露太多，但从有剧本或其他东西的意义上来说，这还没有计划。
It's very open and, but a real-
它非常开放，而且是一个真正的——
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
It's a quest
这是一个追求
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
It's a quest.
这是一个追求。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
An intellectual quest.
一种智力探索。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Right?
对吗？
And-
还有——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's a real experience
这是一次真实的体验
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
So I'm-
所以我-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And men, wear your jacket and tie because everyone else there-
男士们，穿好夹克，打好领带，因为那里的其他人——
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
is going to be wearing a jacket.
将要穿一件夹克。
At least a jacket.
至少一件夹克。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Dress up.
打扮起来。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Look respectable.
看起来很受人尊敬。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's quite a sight.
这真是一个景象。
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
So my wife and I are touring from January through June, and much of that's in the United States, and then two months in Europe.
所以我和我的妻子将从一月到六月进行巡演，其中大部分是在美国，然后在欧洲进行两个月。
And so that's great because Europe is in trouble, and going there to speak is a privilege and an honor, and so that's ridiculously exciting.
这很好，因为欧洲陷入了麻烦，去那里演讲是一种特权和荣誉，所以这是非常令人兴奋的。
And people can find more out about the tour at jordanbpeterson.com.
人们可以在 jordanbpeterson.com 上找到有关这次巡演的更多信息。
The dates and so forth are all listed there.
日期等等都列在那里。
We launched Peterson Academy, where we want you to teach, and that's going spectacularly well.
我们创办了彼得森学院，希望您在那里任教，进展非常顺利。
We have-
我们有-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This is a place where people can hear lectures in a given domain?
这是一个人们可以听特定领域讲座的地方？
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
We have 35 lectures online already.
我们已经有 35 场在线讲座。
Each of them is sequenced over six to eight hours, which compacts, I would say, the equivalent of a full university course into that span of time.
每个课程的顺序都需要六到八个小时，我想说，这相当于在这段时间里完成了完整的大学课程。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
We're pursuing accreditation, which I think is a high probability in the relatively not too distant future.
我们正在寻求认证，我认为在相对不太遥远的未来，这种可能性很大。
So that's ridiculously exciting because we can take the best lectures in the world, and we can make them available to everyone.
所以这是非常令人兴奋的，因为我们可以参加世界上最好的讲座，并且我们可以将它们提供给每个人。
And we built a social media element into it.
我们在其中构建了社交媒体元素。
We took the best of the social media networks, and people are using it like mad, and it's 100% positive.
我们充分利用了社交媒体网络，人们疯狂地使用它，而且它是 100% 积极的。
It's philosophically oriented.
它是哲学导向的。
It's mutually encouraging.
这是相互鼓励的。
We threw four people off the platform out of 40,000.
我们从 40,000 人中淘汰了 4 人。
Well, three, because we put one guy on probation because he said he'd improve.
嗯，三个，因为我们让一个人试用，因为他说他会进步。
And we established a positive culture.
我们建立了积极的文化。
There's no bots.
没有机器人。
There's no trolls.
没有巨魔。
No one's playing games.
没人玩游戏。
And we watch.
我们看着。
And now, the community has settled into a...
现在，社区已经安顿下来......
It's got an ethos already, and I think that'll be self-sustaining.
它已经有了一种精神，我认为这将是自我维持的。
So-
所以——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So people are there to learn.
所以人们在那里学习。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
And to support each other learning.
并互相支持学习。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Got it.
明白了。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
It launched out of the gate better than we thought it would, even though we were optimistic.
尽管我们很乐观，但它的启动比我们想象的要好。
And I would say the quality of what we're offering exceeded, it certainly exceeded my expectations.
我想说的是，我们提供的产品质量超出了，它肯定超出了我的预期。
Well, we showed Michael Malice.
好吧，我们展示了迈克尔·恶意。
Michael Malice did a course for us on totalitarianism, and he takes that rather personally given his family background, and he said that the trailer brought him to tears.
迈克尔·马利斯为我们开设了一门关于极权主义的课程，考虑到他的家庭背景，他认为这相当个人化，他说预告片让他流泪了。
And that's my...
那是我的...
Now I can be easily brought to tears, so I don't know if I'm the best-
现在我很容易落泪，所以我不知道我是不是最好的——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Same
一样
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
...
...
the best-
最好的-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Around certain topics.
围绕某些主题。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I've cried a few times on this podcast this year and a few others, so that was a vulnerability I'd never expected.
今年我在这个播客和其他几个播客上哭过几次，所以这是我从未预料到的脆弱。
But it's-
但它是——
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Well, it's good to know I'm not alone in that.
嗯，很高兴知道我并不孤单。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, you're not alone with that.
不，你并不孤单。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
I'm less susceptible now that I'm more healthy, but I feel the same way about what we're producing because it's exactly if you were a professor and you wanted the best possible courses to be available to people, and you saw these, you'd think, target hit.
现在我更健康了，所以不太容易受到影响，但我对我们正在制作的产品也有同样的感觉，因为如果你是一名教授，你希望向人们提供尽可能最好的课程，而你看到了这些，你会想，目标达到了。
And that's ridiculously fun.
这真是太有趣了。
And I have a great relationship with my wife and my kids, and-
我和我的妻子和孩子们关系很好，而且——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You have some grandkids now, too.
你现在也有一些孙子了。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
I do, and two more on the way.
我这样做了，还有两个正在路上。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Congratulations.
恭喜。
Wow.
哇。
Congratulations.
恭喜。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
And I have an endless field of stellar opportunity in front of me.
我面前有无尽的机遇。
So hopefully, I have enough sense to appreciate that, and I do.
所以希望我有足够的理智去欣赏这一点，而且我确实这么做了。
I do appreciate it, and I know it's unlikely.
我确实很感激，但我知道这不太可能。
So...
所以...
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
A long way from posting lectures on YouTube, which is where most people originally found you, if they were-
距离在 YouTube 上发布讲座还有很长的路要走，这是大多数人最初找到你的地方，如果他们是——
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
listening about then.
听当时的事。
That's certainly how I learned about you.
这当然是我了解你的方式。
I thought, this guy's talking about really interesting things in the fields of psychology.
我想，这家伙正在谈论心理学领域非常有趣的事情。
He knows who Jaak Panksepp is, and he's posting on YouTube.
他知道 Jaak Panksepp 是谁，并且正在 YouTube 上发帖。
Can I ask what inspired that move?
我能问一下是什么激发了这个举动吗？
Was that from-
那是来自——
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Well-
嗯-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
conscious- Was that calling or conscience or both?
有意识——这是召唤还是良知，还是两者兼而有之？
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
It was probably mostly calling because the fundamental motivation was, and I think it is my fundamental motivation, is curiosity.
它可能主要是因为根本动机是好奇心，我认为这是我的基本动机。
I watched YouTube, and I thought, "Hmm, what the hell is this?
我看了 YouTube，然后想：“嗯，这到底是什么？
Video on demand worldwide?
全球视频点播？
What does that mean?" It means the spoken word is now as permanent as the written word and more easily disseminated.
那是什么意思？”这意味着口头语言现在与书面语言一样永久，并且更容易传播。
I thought, "Oh, that's a spectacular and world-altering revolution." That's what it looks like to me.
我想，“哦，这是一场壮观的、改变世界的革命。”在我看来就是这样。
This was in 2010, when it was mostly cat videos.
那是在 2010 年，当时主要是猫视频。
I thought, might as well put my videos up there and see what happens.
我想，不妨把我的视频放在那里，看看会发生什么。
And so see what happens.
看看会发生什么。
That's an adventure.
那是一次冒险。
And so I did that for maybe seven years, somewhere between five and seven years before things exploded around me.
所以我这样做了大约七年，大约五到七年，然后我周围的事情就爆炸了。
And that was also extremely helpful because when I opposed the Trudeau government's attempt to compel my speech in the form of Bill C-16, I was immediately pilloried as a right-wing Nazi, even though I'd spent my whole career publicizing the horrors of the Nazi administration and teaching my students how not to fall prey to totalitarian temptation.
这也非常有帮助，因为当我反对特鲁多政府试图以 C-16 法案的形式强迫我发表演讲时，我立即被嘲笑为右翼纳粹分子，尽管我整个职业生涯都在宣传纳粹政府的恐怖，并教导我的学生如何不成为极权主义诱惑的牺牲品。
That was the core of my career.
那是我职业生涯的核心。
I had 200 hours of lectures up on YouTube already, so when all that negative attention was drawn to me, people started looking at the lectures, and the huge advantage there was that there wasn't a single important word I'd said to students in the last 20 years that wasn't recorded.
我已经在 YouTube 上进行了 200 小时的讲座，所以当所有负面关注都集中在我身上时，人们开始观看讲座，而这样做的巨大优势是，在过去 20 年里，我对学生说过的每一句话都没有被记录下来。
And the people who decided that I was a reprehensible character had every opportunity to go through everything I'd said with a fine-tooth comb, which you can be absolutely certain they did, and they couldn't find one thing I ever said that led any credence whatsoever to their accusations.
那些认为我是一个应受谴责的人物的人有充分的机会仔细梳理我所说的一切，你可以绝对肯定他们确实做到了，但他们找不到我说过的任何一件事可以导致他们的指控有任何可信度。
And so that was a breaking point in some ways for cancel culture because there were very forceful attempts to cancel me.
所以这在某种程度上是取消文化的一个转折点，因为有非常有力的尝试来取消我。
And so people went and checked me out and they thought, "Huh, nothing he says falls into alignment with what he's being accused about." Well, what would you say?
于是人们就去检查我，他们想：“呃，他所说的一切都与他被指控的内容不符。”嗯，你会说什么？
That was part of the dam breaking with regards to the corruption of the legacy media.
这是传统媒体腐败问题的一部分。
So not only was what I was accused of a lie, it was exactly the opposite of the truth, which is the most profound kind of lie.
所以我被指控的不仅是谎言，而且是与事实完全相反的，这是最深刻的谎言。
So YouTube helped me out a lot there.
YouTube 在这方面帮了我很多忙。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, you've certainly prevailed.
嗯，你确实赢了。
And we're all-
而我们都是——
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
So far.
到目前为止。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, I guess that speaks to what I was going to say, which is that, I want to thank you for posting those videos on YouTube and for entering that adventure, because it certainly was the beginning of a long adventure that's still happening now.
嗯，我想这正是我要说的，那就是，我要感谢您在 YouTube 上发布这些视频并参与这次冒险，因为这无疑是现在仍在发生的漫长冒险的开始。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Wow.
哇。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Where you continue to take risks that are healthy risks in service to trying to understand the truth and share that.
你继续冒着健康的风险去尝试了解真相并分享真相。
And I must say, never with the stance that you know absolutely right for everybody, but certainly where you have felt you could share useful knowledge at the practical level, like really how to operationalize, like clean up your room, right?
我必须说，永远不要抱有你知道绝对适合每个人的立场，但肯定是你觉得你可以在实践层面上分享有用的知识，比如如何实际操作，比如清理你的房间，对吗？
Do these things to try and discover your path, get on your path, set your sights to the right level, and to make that a daily practice and a repeated lifelong practice is really spectacular, and it's obviously inspired millions of people, including myself.
做这些事情来尝试和发现你的道路，走上你的道路，将你的视野设定在正确的水平，并使其成为日常练习和重复的终生练习，这真的很壮观，而且它显然激励了数百万人，包括我自己。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'll also say that it's really wonderful that you are also continuing to do that yourself and making that visible to people.
我还要说，您自己也继续这样做并让人们看到，这真的很棒。
Your live events, of course, are an exploration in the moment where you raise a question and ask a question and address it.
当然，您的现场活动是您提出问题并解决问题的那一刻的探索。
It's not pre-planned.
这不是预先计划好的。
And I must say that your progression of books and podcasts and where things are going now, in particular, that today you said you are hopeful that the Democratic Party, I think most people assume that you're very right-leaning.
我必须说，你的书籍和播客的进展以及事情现在的进展，特别是今天你说你对民主党充满希望，我认为大多数人都认为你非常右倾。
I'm not going to assume one way or the other, but the fact that you are intentionally inviting and hoping for opposition so that power is checked and things continue in the right direction, I think that's really beautiful, because what you're asking for is more balance as opposed to more skewing of knowledge and power.
我不会假设其中一种方式，但事实是，你有意邀请并希望反对，以便权力受到检查，事情继续朝着正确的方向发展，我认为这真的很美好，因为你要求的是更多的平衡，而不是知识和权力的更多扭曲。
And I think that's a terrific example, and it's clear that you live right near the edge, in order to inspire us to basically explore knowledge, explore ancient teachings, and merge them with where we are now.
我认为这是一个很棒的例子，很明显，你生活在边缘附近，以激励我们从根本上探索知识，探索古代教义，并将它们与我们现在的情况融合起来。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Yeah, well, it's been unbelievably rewarding.
是的，嗯，这是令人难以置信的回报。
Part of the reason that my wife and I keep touring is because we meet all these people, and they put their lives together.
我和妻子继续巡演的部分原因是我们遇到了所有这些人，他们把自己的生活放在了一起。
It's thousands and thousands of people.
有成千上万的人。
It's so gratifying.
真是太令人欣慰了
Wherever we go, the probability that someone will come up and say, "Thank you." But then when I ask, "For what?
无论我们走到哪里，都有可能有人走过来说：“谢谢。”但当我问：“为了什么？
What do you mean exactly?
你到底是什么意思？
What changed?" They tell me.
什么变化了？”他们告诉我。
And there isn't anything better that can happen to you than to travel around the world and have perfect strangers come up to you as friends and tell you that their lives are far better than they would've been because of their efforts and because of their encounter with what you've been doing.
没有什么比环游世界并让完全陌生的人以朋友的身份出现在你身上更好的事情了，他们告诉你，由于他们的努力以及他们与你所做的事情的接触，他们的生活比他们原本应该过的要好得多。
If you could pray for anything to happen to you, there's not a possibility that you could come up with a better wish than that.
如果你可以祈祷任何事情发生在你身上，你不可能想出比这更好的愿望。
And so it's great.
所以这很棒。
It's great.
这很棒。
And it's fascinating to explore its continuation and to observe the consequences, and it's a privilege to be in the-- It's an immense, what would you say?
探索它的延续并观察其后果是很有趣的，而且很荣幸能够参与其中——这是一个巨大的过程，你会说什么？
It's unspeakably immense privilege to be in that position.
能够担任这个职务是一种难以言表的巨大荣幸。
And it's so great to see people like you and Friedman and Chris Williamson and all these other podcasters who are pursuing the same vision and so successfully, and to see the massive effect that's having on people.
很高兴看到像你、弗里德曼和克里斯·威廉姆森这样的人以及所有其他播客都在追求同样的愿景并取得如此成功，并看到这对人们产生的巨大影响。
That's such a good deal.
真是太划算了。
And I do believe it's the sort of thing that's, in a deeply personalized way, available to anyone who follows their calling and conscience.
我确实相信，任何追随自己的使命和良知的人都可以以一种深度个性化的方式获得这种东西。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, thank you for those words.
嗯，谢谢你的这些话。
I also agree it's freely available by people being themselves and, as you said, following their curiosity and conscience.
我也同意人们可以自由地获得它，正如你所说，遵循他们的好奇心和良心。
Thank you for coming here today and sharing with us where you're at now, your knowledge, and please come back again.
感谢您今天来到这里并与我们分享您现在的处境和您的知识，请再次回来。
I really enjoyed this.
我真的很喜欢这个。
Dr. Jordan Peterson:
乔丹·彼得森博士：
Hey, anytime.
嘿，任何时候。
I appreciate the invitation very much.
我非常感谢您的邀请。
And, it's a pleasure watching your progress forward and seeing you propagate all the remarkable discoveries that have been made in the field of neuroscience, because it's quite the credible enterprise, and people need to know the biology of motivation, let's say, and the biology of emotion, and it's great to see you managing that in a sophisticated way with so many people.
而且，很高兴看到你的进步，看到你传播神经科学领域的所有非凡发现，因为这是一项相当可信的事业，人们需要了解动机的生物学，比如说，和情感的生物学，很高兴看到你与这么多人一起以复杂的方式管理这一点。
It's a good deal for everybody.
这对每个人来说都是一件好事。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thank you.
谢谢你。
It's a labor of love inspired in no small part by you and my other podcast colleagues.
这是一种爱的劳动，很大程度上是受到你和我的其他播客同事的启发。
And in your case, my academic colleagues.
就你而言，还有我的学术同事。
So thank you, Jordan.
所以谢谢你，乔丹。
Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Jordan Peterson.
感谢您参加今天与乔丹·彼得森博士的讨论。
To find links to Dr. Peterson's work, his social media, his new book, "We Who Wrestle With God," as well as a link to the Peterson Academy, please see the show note captions.
要查找彼得森博士的作品、他的社交媒体、他的新书《与上帝摔跤的我们》的链接以及彼得森学院的链接，请参阅节目注释标题。
If you're learning from and/or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel.
如果您正在学习和/或喜欢此播客，请订阅我们的 YouTube 频道。
That's a terrific zero-cost way to support us.
这是支持我们的绝佳零成本方式。
Please also click follow for the podcast on both Spotify and Apple.
另请点击关注 Spotify 和 Apple 上的播客。
And on both Spotify and Apple, you can leave us up to a five-star review.
在 Spotify 和 Apple 上，您都可以给我们五星级的评价。
Please also check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode.
另请查看今天节目开头和整个节目中提到的赞助商。
That's the best way to support this podcast.
这是支持这个播客的最佳方式。
If you have questions for me or comments about the podcast or topics or guests that you'd like me to consider for the Huberman Lab podcast, please put those in the comments section on YouTube.
如果您对我有疑问，或者对播客有任何意见，或者您希望我为 Huberman Lab 播客考虑的主题或嘉宾，请将这些意见放入 YouTube 的评论部分。
I do read all the comments.
我确实阅读了所有评论。
And if you're not already following me on social media, I am Huberman Lab on all social media platforms.
如果您还没有在社交媒体上关注我，我是所有社交媒体平台上的 Huberman Lab。
So that's Instagram, X, formerly known as Twitter, Facebook, Threads, and LinkedIn.
这就是 Instagram、X，以前称为 Twitter、Facebook、Threads 和 LinkedIn。
And on all those platforms, I discuss science and science-related tools, some of which overlaps with the content of the Huberman Lab podcast, but much of which is distinct from the content on the Huberman Lab podcast.
在所有这些平台上，我讨论科学和与科学相关的工具，其中一些与胡伯曼实验室播客的内容重叠，但其中大部分与胡伯曼实验室播客的内容不同。
Again, that's Huberman Lab on all social media platforms.
再说一次，这就是所有社交媒体平台上的 Huberman Lab。
For those of you that haven't heard, I have a new book coming out.
对于那些还没有听说过的人，我即将出版一本新书。
It's my very first book.
这是我的第一本书。
It's entitled "Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body." This is a book that I've been working on for more than five years, and that's based on more than 30 years of research and experience.
它的标题是“协议：人体操作手册”。这本书是我花了五年多时间编写的，它基于 30 多年的研究和经验。
And it covers protocols for everything from sleep to exercise to stress control, protocols related to focus and motivation, and of course, I provide the scientific substantiation for the protocols that are included.
它涵盖了从睡眠到运动再到压力控制的所有协议，以及与注意力和动机相关的协议，当然，我为所包含的协议提供了科学依据。
The book is now available by presale at protocolsbook.com.
该书现已在protocolbook.com 上预售。
There you can find links to various vendors.
在那里您可以找到各个供应商的链接。
You can pick the one that you like best.
您可以选择您最喜欢的一个。
Again, the book is called "Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body." And if you haven't already subscribed to our Neural Network Newsletter, the Neural Network Newsletter is a zero-cost monthly newsletter that includes everything from podcast summaries to what we call protocols in the form of brief one to three-page PDFs that cover things like how to optimize your sleep, how to regulate your dopamine.
同样，这本书的名字是“协议：人体操作手册”。如果您还没有订阅我们的神经网络时事通讯，神经网络时事通讯是一份零成本的月度时事通讯，其中包括从播客摘要到我们所说的协议（以简短的一到三页 PDF 形式）的所有内容，其中涵盖了如何优化睡眠、如何调节多巴胺等内容。
We also have protocols related to deliberate cold exposure, get a lot of questions about that, deliberate heat exposure, and on and on.
我们还有与故意冷暴露相关的协议，收到了很多关于此的问题，故意热暴露等等。
Again, all available at completely zero cost.
同样，所有这些都可以完全零成本获得。
You simply go to hubermanlab.com, go to the menu tab in the top right corner, scroll down to newsletter, and enter your email.
您只需访问 hubermanlab.com，转到右上角的菜单选项卡，向下滚动到时事通讯，然后输入您的电子邮件即可。
And I should mention that we do not share your email with anybody.
我应该指出的是，我们不会与任何人分享您的电子邮件。
Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Jordan Peterson.
再次感谢您参加今天与乔丹·彼得森博士的讨论。
And last but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.
最后但并非最不重要的一点是，感谢您对科学的兴趣。