Dr. Jonathan Haidt: How Smartphones & Social Media Impact Mental Health & the Realistic Solutions
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.
欢迎来到休伯曼实验室播客，我们在这里讨论科学和基于科学的日常生活工具。
I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.
我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。
My guest today is Dr. Jonathan Haidt.
今天我的嘉宾是乔纳森·海特博士。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt is a social psychologist and professor at New York University.
乔纳森·海特博士是纽约大学的社会心理学家和教授。
He is also the author of several important bestselling books, including "The Coddling of the American Mind," and more recently, "The Anxious Generation: How the Great Rewiring of Childhood Is Causing an Epidemic of Mental Illness." And today, we talk mainly about "The Anxious Generation." However, it is not a purely pessimistic conversation.
他还是几本重要畅销书的作者，包括《美国心灵的溺爱》和最近的《焦虑的一代：童年的伟大重塑如何导致精神疾病的流行》。而今天我们主要聊的是“焦虑的一代”。然而，这并不是一场纯粹悲观的谈话。
Indeed, Dr. Haidt offers several clear solutions to the mental health crisis that now exists and that we have all created through the use of smartphones, in particular in kids entering and transitioning through puberty.
事实上，海特博士针对目前存在的心理健康危机提供了几种明确的解决方案，这些危机是我们通过智能手机的使用而造成的，特别是对于进入青春期并过渡的儿童。
During today's episode, we discuss so-called critical or sensitive periods for social development, for the development of an understanding about competition and violence, about sex, and how boys and girls are impacted differently by smartphone use, and the specific solutions that do exist and that Dr. Haidt has created that can place boys and girls, as well as young adults, back on the trajectory of mental health.
在今天的节目中，我们讨论所谓的社会发展关键或敏感时期，加深对竞争和暴力、性的理解，以及智能手机的使用如何对男孩和女孩产生不同的影响，以及海特博士创建的现有具体解决方案，这些解决方案可以使男孩和女孩以及年轻人回到心理健康的轨道。
So today's discussion is really one that brings together an understanding of neurobiology, psychology, social psychology, and technology in ways that are designed to serve the most critical members of our species, meaning our youth.
因此，今天的讨论实际上汇集了对神经生物学、心理学、社会心理学和技术的理解，旨在为我们物种中最关键的成员（即我们的年轻人）服务。
And for those that have already gone through youth, today's discussion is also relevant to you, because as many of you know and perhaps have experienced, most everybody nowadays is challenged in some way by smartphones, both for their utility and the ways in which they can diminish our social and family interactions, academic performance, and more.
对于那些已经度过青春期的人来说，今天的讨论也与你们相关，因为你们中的许多人都知道并且可能已经经历过，现在大多数人都在某种程度上受到智能手机的挑战，无论是因为它们的实用性，还是因为它们会削弱我们的社交和家庭互动、学业成绩等。
So, thanks to Dr. Haidt, today's discussion really is a solution-based one, and it's one that is sure to educate, inform, and inspire specific positive action.
因此，感谢海特博士，今天的讨论确实是基于解决方案的讨论，并且肯定会教育、告知和激发具体的积极行动。
Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.
在开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。
It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public.
然而，我的愿望和努力的一部分是向公众提供有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本消费者信息。
In keeping with that theme, I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast.
为了与这个主题保持一致，我要感谢今天播客的赞助商。
Our first sponsor is Helix Sleep.
我们的第一个赞助商是 Helix Sleep。
Helix Sleep makes mattresses and pillows that are customized to your unique sleep needs.
Helix Sleep 生产根据您独特的睡眠需求定制的床垫和枕头。
Now, I've spoken many times before on this and other podcasts about the fact that sleep is the foundation for mental health, physical health, and performance.
现在，我之前已经在这个播客和其他播客中多次谈到睡眠是心理健康、身体健康和表现的基础这一事实。
Now, one of the key things to getting a great night's sleep is to make sure that you sleep on a mattress designed specifically for your sleep needs, and that's what Helix Sleep mattresses are designed to accomplish.
现在，获得良好睡眠的关键之一是确保您睡在专为您的睡眠需求而设计的床垫上，而这正是 Helix Sleep 床垫的设计目的。
If you go to the Helix website and take a brief two-minute quiz, it asks you questions such as, do you sleep on your back, your side, or your stomach?
如果您访问 Helix 网站并进行一个两分钟的简短测验，它会问您一些问题，例如您是仰卧、侧卧还是俯卧？
Do you tend to run hot or cold during the night?
你晚上容易感到热还是冷？
Maybe you know, maybe you don't know the answers to those questions.
也许你知道，也许你不知道这些问题的答案。
In any case, they'll match you to the ideal mattress for your unique sleep needs.
无论如何，他们都会为您匹配适合您独特睡眠需求的理想床垫。
For me, that turned out to be the Dusk Helix mattress.
对我来说，这就是 Dusk Helix 床垫。
I started sleeping on a Dusk mattress about three and a half years ago, and it's been far and away the best sleep that I've ever had.
大约三年半前，我开始睡在 Dusk 床垫上，这无疑是我睡过的最好的睡眠。
So if you'd like to try a Helix mattress designed for your unique sleep needs, you can go to helixsleep.com/huberman, take that brief two-minute sleep quiz, and Helix will match you to a mattress that's ideal for your unique sleep needs.
因此，如果您想尝试专为您独特的睡眠需求而设计的 Helix 床垫，您可以访问 helixsleep.com/huberman，参加简短的两分钟睡眠测验，Helix 将为您匹配最适合您独特睡眠需求的床垫。
Right now, Helix is offering 20% off mattresses and two free pillows.
目前，Helix 提供 20% 床垫折扣和两个免费枕头。
Again, that's helixsleep.com/huberman to get 20% off and two free pillows.
再次强调，helixsleep.com/huberman 提供 20% 折扣和两个免费枕头。
Today's episode is also brought to us by AeroPress.
今天的节目也是爱乐压为我们带来的。
AeroPress is like a French press, but a French press that always brews the perfect cup of coffee, meaning no bitterness and excellent taste.
AeroPress 就像法压壶，但法压壶总能冲泡出一杯完美的咖啡，意味着没有苦味且味道极佳。
AeroPress achieves this because it uses a very short contact time between the hot water and the coffee, and that short contact time also means that you can brew an excellent cup of coffee very quickly.
AeroPress 之所以能够实现这一点，是因为它在热水和咖啡之间使用了非常短的接触时间，而短的接触时间也意味着您可以非常快速地冲泡一杯优质的咖啡。
The whole thing only takes about three minutes.
整个过程只需要大约三分钟。
I started using an AeroPress over 10 years ago.
我十多年前开始使用爱乐压。
I first learned about it from a guy named Alan Adler, who's a former Stanford engineer and inventor.
我首先从一个名叫艾伦·阿德勒的人那里得知了这一点，他是斯坦福大学的前工程师和发明家。
I'm a big fan of Adler's inventions, and when I heard he developed a coffee maker, the AeroPress, I tried it, and I found that indeed, it makes the best possible tasting cup of coffee.
我是阿德勒发明的忠实粉丝，当我听说他开发了爱乐压咖啡机时，我尝试了一下，发现它确实可以煮出一杯味道最好的咖啡。
And I'm not alone in my love of the AeroPress.
我并不是唯一一个热爱爱乐压的人。
With over 55,000 five-star reviews, AeroPress is the best-reviewed coffee press in the world.
AeroPress 拥有超过 55,000 条五星级评价，是世界上评价最好的咖啡机。
I'm also excited to share that AeroPress has just released a brand-new AeroPress that brews and packs into its own travel tumbler.
我还很高兴地告诉大家，爱乐压 (AeroPress) 刚刚发布了一款全新的爱乐压 (AeroPress)，它可以冲泡并包装到自己的旅行杯中。
This new AeroPress, called the AeroPress Go Plus, makes brewing coffee when traveling incredibly easy.
这款新型爱乐压 (AeroPress) 称为爱乐压 Go Plus，让旅行时冲泡咖啡变得异常简单。
The design is really clever.
这个设计确实很巧妙。
The entire AeroPress unit packs really nicely into a custom AeroPress travel thermos that's small enough that it can fit into your carry-on or any form of luggage.
整个爱乐压装置可以很好地装入定制的爱乐压旅行保温瓶中，该保温瓶足够小，可以放入您的随身行李或任何形式的行李中。
And with it, you can make an excellent cup of coffee anywhere.
有了它，您可以在任何地方制作一杯美味的咖啡。
All you need is some ground coffee and hot water.
您所需要的只是一些研磨咖啡和热水。
Indeed, I've even used it on the plane, in hotels, of course.
事实上，我什至在飞机上、酒店里都用过它。
Basically, I take it with me anywhere I need a great-tasting cup of coffee.
基本上，我会随身携带它去任何需要一杯美味咖啡的地方。
And with Father's Day coming up, it makes for a great Father's Day gift.
随着父亲节的临近，这是一份很棒的父亲节礼物。
If you'd like to try AeroPress, you can go to aeropress.com/huberman to get 20% off.
如果您想尝试 AeroPress，可以访问 aeropress.com/huberman 享受 20% 的折扣。
AeroPress currently ships in the USA, Canada, and to over 60 countries around the world.
AeroPress 目前向美国、加拿大以及全球 60 多个国家/地区发货。
Again, that's aeropress.com/huberman.
同样，这是 aeropress.com/huberman。
Today's episode is also brought to us by Joovv.
今天的节目也是Joovv给我们带来的。
Joovv makes medical-grade red light therapy devices.
Joovv 生产医疗级红光治疗设备。
Now, if there's one thing I've consistently emphasized on this podcast, it's the incredible impact that light can have on our biology.
现在，如果我在这个播客中一直强调一件事，那就是光对我们的生物学产生的令人难以置信的影响。
Now, in addition to sunlight, red light and near-infrared light have been shown to have positive effects on improving numerous aspects of cellular and organ health, including faster muscle recovery, improved skin health and wound healing, even improvements in acne, reducing pain and inflammation, improving mitochondrial function, and even improving vision itself.
现在，除了阳光之外，红光和近红外光已被证明对改善细胞和器官健康的许多方面具有积极作用，包括更快的肌肉恢复、改善皮肤健康和伤口愈合，甚至改善痤疮、减轻疼痛和炎症、改善线粒体功能，甚至改善视力本身。
What sets Joovv lights apart and why they're my preferred red light therapy devices is that they use clinically proven wavelengths, meaning it uses specific wavelengths of red light and near-infrared light in combination to trigger the optimal cellular adaptations.
Joovv 灯的与众不同之处以及它们成为我首选红光治疗设备的原因在于它们使用经过临床验证的波长，这意味着它结合使用特定波长的红光和近红外光来触发最佳的细胞适应。
Personally, I use the Joovv handheld light both at home and when I travel.
就我个人而言，我在家中和旅行时都会使用 Joovv 手持灯。
It's only about the size of a sandwich, so it's super portable and convenient to use.
它只有三明治大小，因此超级便携且使用方便。
I also have a Joovv whole body panel, and I use that about three or four times per week.
我还有一个 Joovv 全身面板，我每周大约使用三到四次。
If you'd like to try Joovv, you can go to Joovv, spelled J-O-O-V-V, .com/huberman.
如果您想尝试 Joovv，可以访问 Joovv，拼写为 J-O-O-V-V，.com/huberman。
Joovv is offering an exclusive discount to all Huberman Lab listeners with up to $400 off select Joovv products.
Joovv 向所有 Huberman Lab 听众提供独家折扣，精选 Joovv 产品最高可享受 400 美元的折扣。
Again, that's Joovv, J-O-O-V-V, .com/huberman to get $400 off select Joovv products.
同样，Joovv、J-O-O-V-V、.com/huberman 精选 Joovv 产品可享受 400 美元优惠。
And now for my discussion with Dr. Jonathan Haidt.
现在我与乔纳森·海特博士进行讨论。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt Welcome.
乔纳森·海特博士欢迎您。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Thank you, Andrew.
谢谢你，安德鲁。
I'm a longtime listener.
我是一个长期的听众。
I've developed many good habits because of you.
因为你，我养成了很多好习惯。
Thank you.
谢谢。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thank you.
谢谢你。
Well, you look very healthy, and delighted to have you here.
嗯，你看起来很健康，很高兴你来这里。
I'm a longtime fan of your work.
我是你作品的长期粉丝。
I've read "The Coddling of the American Mind." It's an incredibly important book.
我读过《美国思想的溺爱》。这是一本非常重要的书。
"The Anxious Generation," incredibly important book.
《焦虑的一代》是一本非常重要的书。
I'll just start off with an easy question, which is, how are we doing as a species?
我将从一个简单的问题开始，那就是，我们作为一个物种做得怎么样？
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
How are we doing as a species?
作为一个物种，我们表现得怎么样？
Well, as a species, as one of my friends said, we're going to be pretty hard to kill off.
嗯，正如我的一位朋友所说，作为一个物种，我们将很难被消灭。
We'll be like cockroaches, and we're pretty inventive in that way.
我们会像蟑螂一样，在这方面我们非常有创造力。
But as a civilization, I think we might well be at a point of there are peaks and valleys, and there are some cycles in history, and we may be at one of those turning points, and it's going to be pretty unclear what happens over the next five or 10 years.
但作为一个文明，我认为我们很可能正处于一个有高峰和低谷的时刻，历史上有一些周期，我们可能正处于其中一个转折点，未来五年或十年会发生什么还不清楚。
It's a very interesting time to be a social scientist.
对于一名社会科学家来说，这是一个非常有趣的时刻。
I'll just leave it at that.
我就这样吧。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I suppose we can't point to any one factor, but we wouldn't be sitting here today, you wouldn't have written "The Anxious Generation," and it wouldn't be having the incredible impact that it's having were it not for the fact that smartphones have dramatically, profoundly changed the way that we interact as a species.
我想我们不能指出任何一个因素，但我们今天不会坐在这里，你也不会写出《焦虑的一代》，如果不是智能手机极大地、深刻地改变了我们作为一个物种的互动方式，它也不会产生如此令人难以置信的影响。
In fact, a colleague of mine at Harvard, Jeff Lichtman, who's world-famous for neuroplasticity, said a few years back, "This is probably the first time in human history that humans have written with their thumbs," implying that the brain representation of the thumbs is probably very different in all of us-
事实上，我在哈佛大学的一位同事杰夫·利希特曼（Jeff Lichtman）因神经可塑性而闻名于世，他几年前曾说过，“这可能是人类历史上第一次人类用拇指书写”，这意味着我们所有人的拇指在大脑中的表现可能都非常不同——
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
than it was prior to that, because the brain is an adaptive map of our experience in many ways.
与之前相比，因为大脑在很多方面都是我们经验的适应性地图。
That's a somewhat innocuous example of the changes that have occurred.
这是所发生的变化的一个无害的例子。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The use of the digits, the thumbs, to write, but there's so much more going on now as a consequence of smartphones.
使用数字、拇指来书写，但由于智能手机的出现，现在发生了更多事情。
So if you were to say the day, the date, the year in which everything changed-
所以如果你要说一切都发生了变化的那一天、那一天、那一年——
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
would it be the day that most everyone had and has a smartphone, somewhere around 2010, 2011, 2012, or did all this start prior?
这会是大多数人都拥有智能手机的那一天吗？大约在 2010 年、2011 年、2012 年左右，还是这一切都开始于更早的时候？
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Well, actually, if it's okay with you, I'll answer that by giving sort of the history, because the short answer would be 2010 to 2015.
好吧，实际上，如果您同意的话，我会通过提供一些历史来回答这个问题，因为简短的答案是 2010 年到 2015 年。
But it'll make more sense if I just go through how we got there.
但如果我只是回顾一下我们是如何到达那里的，那就更有意义了。
So changes in technology, when you connect people more, you get roads, you get telephones, these things are all great.
所以技术的变化，当你把人们联系得更多时，你就有了道路，你有了电话，这些东西都很棒。
They lead to massive gains in knowledge, productivity.
它们带来了知识和生产力的巨大进步。
Yes, sometimes there are disruptions, but in the history of humanity, they've been great.
是的，有时会出现混乱，但在人类历史上，它们是伟大的。
The internet was that, when, you and I are old enough to remember.
互联网就是这样，当你和我都已经足够大的时候，我们还能记得。
Do you remember the first time you saw a web browser?
您还记得第一次看到网络浏览器时的情景吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I do.
我愿意。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
And it was like, "You mean I just type in a question, and I get the answer?
就像，“你的意思是我只要输入一个问题，然后我就能得到答案？
I don't have to go to the library?" It was miraculous.
我不用去图书馆吗？”这太神奇了。
And I can talk to people for free.
我可以免费与人交谈。
We had that by email, which was free.
我们通过电子邮件收到了该信息，这是免费的。
So in general, connecting people is good, and we were all very optimistic about the internet in the 1990s.
所以总的来说，人与人之间的联系是好的，我们在 20 世纪 90 年代都对互联网非常乐观。
It was amazing.
太棒了。
And in our conversation today, I want to make it very clear, the internet is absolutely amazing.
在我们今天的谈话中，我想明确表示，互联网绝对是令人惊奇的。
This is not about how the internet is bad.
这并不是说互联网有多糟糕。
Smartphones or the iPhone is absolutely amazing, although there are some things about it that are problematic.
智能手机或 iPhone 绝对是令人惊叹的，尽管它也存在一些问题。
It's really especially social media which has changed things.
尤其是社交媒体改变了一切。
And so if we look at a kid, let's take a teenager in 2010, and let's say January 2010.
因此，如果我们看一个孩子，就以 2010 年的青少年为例，假设是 2010 年 1 月。
At that point, there's no Instagram, there's no front-facing camera.
那时，还没有 Instagram，也没有前置摄像头。
Mostly they have flip phones.
他们大多有翻盖手机。
The iPhone came out in 2007, but they don't mostly have them.
iPhone 于 2007 年问世，但大多数人都没有。
And so in 2010, most teenagers are using the flip phone as a tool to call each other, text each other, meet up.
因此，在 2010 年，大多数青少年都使用翻盖手机作为互相打电话、发短信、见面的工具。
So when technology helps us achieve our goals, that's good.
因此，当技术帮助我们实现目标时，那就太好了。
By 2015, everything's different.
到了2015年，一切都不同了。
By 2015, the great majority of Americans, certainly teens, have a smartphone with a front-facing camera.
到 2015 年，绝大多数美国人（尤其是青少年）都拥有带有前置摄像头的智能手机。
The girls are mostly on Instagram, which was the first social media platform that you had to be on a smartphone for.
这些女孩大多在 Instagram 上，这是第一个必须使用智能手机才能使用的社交媒体平台。
Everything else was web-based.
其他一切都是基于网络的。
They have high-speed internet, unlimited texting, and now it's possible to spend 10, 15 hours a day on your phone.
他们有高速互联网、无限制的短信，现在每天花 10 到 15 个小时在手机上是可能的。
Nobody could do that with a flip phone.
没有人可以用翻盖手机做到这一点。
So I point to that, it's that five-year period, 2010 to 2015, which I've called the Great Rewiring of Childhood because it affects everything, everything about what children and teenagers are doing.
所以我指出，2010 年至 2015 年这五年，我称之为“童年的伟大重塑”，因为它影响着儿童和青少年所做的一切。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I can recall in 2010, I was actually in New York City visiting friends.
我记得2010年，我实际上是在纽约拜访朋友。
I got my first smartphone, and I recall I was up at 1:30 in the morning-
我拿到了我的第一部智能手机，我记得我凌晨 1:30 就起床了 -
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
scrolling on this thing and thinking, "This is unbelievably addicting."
滚动这个东西并思考，“这令人难以置信地上瘾。”
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Nowadays, I think of it less as addicting, but almost like an OCD of sorts.
如今，我认为它不那么令人上瘾，但几乎就像某种强迫症。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And here I'm not talking about clinically diagnosed OCD, but-
在这里我不是在谈论临床诊断的强迫症，而是——
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
the interesting thing about OCD is that the compulsions, the behaviors, don't serve to reduce the obsessions.
关于强迫症的有趣之处在于，强迫行为、行为并不能减少强迫症。
Rather, they exacerbate them or reinforce them.
相反，它们会加剧或强化它们。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And in many ways, I feel like smartphone use, and social media use in particular, is an OCD of sorts.
从很多方面来说，我觉得智能手机的使用，尤其是社交媒体的使用，是一种强迫症。
It's not just a habit, it's not just an addiction, it's an obsessive-compulsive loop.
这不仅仅是一种习惯，这不仅仅是一种成瘾，这是一种强迫循环。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
So it's already a struggle to pay attention and ancient traditions have taught techniques to improve your focus, your attention.
因此，集中注意力已经是一件很困难的事情了，古老的传统已经教会了提高注意力的技巧。
We're easily distracted.
我们很容易分心。
And so I don't work on my phone very much because I hate to type on the phone and I'm always at a computer.
所以我不太用手机工作，因为我讨厌在手机上打字，而且总是在电脑前。
But even for me, sitting at my computer, as soon as the thinking gets hard, as soon as I'm writing, I'm doing something that requires concentration, some little part of my brain says, "I wonder what the weather's going to be," and I go check the weather.
但即使对我来说，坐在电脑前，一旦思考变得困难，一旦我在写作，我正在做一些需要集中注意力的事情，我大脑的某个小部分会说，“我想知道天气会怎样，”然后我就去查看天气。
Or, "Oh, did I get any email?" I go check my email probably 40, 50 times a day, and I know that's terrible.
或者，“哦，我收到电子邮件了吗？”我每天大概要检查 40、50 次电子邮件，我知道这很糟糕。
So the question is, is it a compulsion where I feel pulled, I have to check it or something bad will happen?
所以问题是，这是否是一种强迫症，让我感到被拉扯，我必须检查它，否则会发生不好的事情？
No. It's more like, imagine trying to do your work, imagine trying to be a kid in school, and you have, on your desk in front of you, you have your television set, your record player, a walkie-talkie to talk to your friends, a guitar, a painting set, all arrayed in front of you, and your teacher is telling you about geometry.
不，这更像是，想象一下你试图做你的工作，想象一下你在学校里尝试做一个孩子，你面前的桌子上有电视机、电唱机、用来与朋友交谈的对讲机、一把吉他、一套绘画工具，所有这些都排列在你面前，而你的老师正在给你讲几何。
What are you going to do?
你会怎样做？
Probably one of these things.
可能是这些事情之一。
And so I think the smartphone-- with a flip phone, it's a tool.
所以我认为智能手机——带有翻盖手机，它是一种工具。
You pull it out if you want to talk to someone, then you put it away.
如果你想和某人说话，你就把它拉出来，然后把它收起来。
But the smartphone, there's no reason to ever put it away.
但智能手机，没有理由把它收起来。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Talk to us about the scary statistics.
和我们谈谈可怕的统计数据。
There's just no way around this.
没有办法解决这个问题。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And we will talk about solutions.
我们将讨论解决方案。
You offer some incredible solutions in the book, actually solutions that everyone listening and watching can participate in.
您在书中提供了一些令人难以置信的解决方案，实际上是每个听众和观看者都可以参与的解决方案。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Not just by restriction, and we'll talk about what that means going forward.
不仅仅是限制，我们将讨论这意味着什么。
But where are we at now and when did we start to see the trend toward diminished mental health-
但我们现在处于什么位置，我们什么时候开始看到心理健康状况下降的趋势——
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in particular in girls?
尤其是女孩？
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So feel free to-
所以请随意-
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
hit us with the scary truth.
用可怕的事实打击我们。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Okay, sure.
好吧，当然。
So let's imagine, so in the US, we have really good statistics based on annual or biannual surveys.
让我们想象一下，在美国，我们有基于年度或半年调查的非常好的统计数据。
There's three or four big ones that allow us to see what's happened since the '70s.
有三四个大事件可以让我们了解 70 年代以来发生的事情。
And so what I'd like listeners to imagine is imagine a bunch of lines, maybe a line for boys, maybe a line for boys, a line for girls, showing the percentage that suffer from anxiety, depression, or that have self-harm.
所以我希望听众想象的是一堆台词，可能是男孩的台词，可能是男孩的台词，也可能是女孩的台词，显示患有焦虑、抑郁或自残的人的百分比。
Those three really go together.
这三个人真的很配。
And imagine these lines, they move around a little bit, but they're actually pretty stable from the 1990s all the way through 2010, even 2011.
想象一下这些线，它们会稍微移动，但实际上从 20 世纪 90 年代一直到 2010 年，甚至 2011 年，它们都相当稳定。
There's no sign of a problem.
没有任何问题的迹象。
On some measures, they get actually a little bit better because-
在某些方面，他们实际上变得更好了一些，因为-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So stable and low?
这么稳定又低？
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Stable.
稳定。
Well, low, if they're around, say, 12, 15% of girls qualify as having had a major depression, that's much higher than we would like.
嗯，很低，如果大约有 12%、15% 的女孩有资格患有重度抑郁症，这比我们希望的要高得多。
That's a problem, but it's nothing compared to what it is today.
这是一个问题，但与今天相比，这算不了什么。
So the lines are pretty flat until around 2012, and then all of a sudden, the lines for girls go up like a hockey stick.
因此，直到 2012 年左右，队伍的排名都相当平坦，然后突然间，女孩的队伍像曲棍球棒一样上升。
It's not a subtle thing.
这不是一件微妙的事情。
It really is.
确实如此。
There's an elbow.
有一个肘部。
It's like somebody turned on a light switch in 2012.
这就像有人在 2012 年打开了电灯开关。
Now, that's for the American data.
现在，这是美国的数据。
Internationally, you see very similar things.
在国际上，你会看到非常相似的事情。
It's not necessarily 2012 in other countries.
在其他国家，这不一定是 2012 年。
But the girls' graphs are very sharp.
但女孩们的图表非常犀利。
The boys are also up on depression, anxiety.
男孩们也患有抑郁症和焦虑症。
They're also way up.
他们也高了。
Depending on the measure, everything is in the ballpark of 50% to 150%.
根据衡量标准，一切都在 50% 到 150% 的范围内。
Almost all the numbers are in that range.
几乎所有的数字都在这个范围内。
We're not talking 10% or 20% increases here.
我们这里讨论的不是 10% 或 20% 的增长。
For most things, we're talking close to a doubling, especially for the younger girls.
对于大多数事情，我们谈论的数字接近翻倍，特别是对于年轻女孩来说。
The boys' curves, interestingly, are smoother.
有趣的是，男孩的曲线更平滑。
That is, the boys are more depressed and anxious, but it's not 2012.
就是男生比较抑郁、焦虑，但现在不是2012年了。
It actually often begins more like 2009, 2010, and then it just keeps going up gradually.
实际上通常是从 2009 年、2010 年开始，然后就逐渐上升。
So that's a real clue, which we'll come back to when we talk about the boys' story.
所以这是一个真正的线索，当我们谈论男孩们的故事时，我们会回到这个线索。
A lot of people say, "Oh, it's just self-report.
很多人说：“哦，这只是自我报告。
Gen Z, they're really positive about mental health, and they're willing to talk about it.
Z 世代，他们对心理健康非常积极，并且愿意谈论它。
It's a good thing." But the fact that we see the exact same curves, the very sharp uptick for girls in hospital admissions for self-harm, psychiatric emergency department visits, and we see this in the US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, the UK, the Scandinavian countries.
这是一件好事。”但事实上，我们看到了完全相同的曲线，因自残、精神科急诊就诊的女孩人数急剧上升，我们在美国、加拿大、澳大利亚、新西兰、英国和斯堪的纳维亚国家也看到了这一点。
So something happened across the developed world around 2012, and Jean Twenge was the first to really raise the alarm.
2012 年左右，发达国家发生了一些事情，Jean Twenge 是第一个真正发出警报的人。
She and I keep saying, "Well, we can't find another candidate.
她和我一直说：“好吧，我们找不到其他候选人了。
Nothing else fits the pattern." Oh, and there's actually not just correlational data, there's experimental data, too.
没有其他东西符合这个模式。”哦，实际上不仅有相关数据，还有实验数据。
So we think-- Of course, look, everything's complicated.
所以我们认为——当然，看，一切都很复杂。
Mental health is complicated.
心理健康很复杂。
If you want to understand why one person is depressed, there are going to be many stories.
如果你想了解一个人为何抑郁，会有很多故事。
But if you want to understand why depression rates rose for girls faster than boys all over the developed world, unless someone can find some hormone-disrupting chemical that was suddenly sprayed over Northern Europe and the South Pacific and the US and Canada around 2012, there is no alternative explanation.
但如果你想了解为什么发达国家女孩的抑郁症发病率比男孩上升得更快，除非有人能找到 2012 年左右突然喷洒在北欧、南太平洋以及美国和加拿大的某种干扰激素的化学物质，否则没有其他解释。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So we break down smartphone use in these young girls that correlates with and maybe is causal for this diminishment in mental health.
因此，我们对这些年轻女孩使用智能手机的情况进行了分析，这些情况与心理健康状况的恶化相关，甚至可能是其原因。
There are a number of different variables, right?
有许多不同的变量，对吗？
There's the time spent on the phone.
就是花在电话上的时间。
There's the specific content that they're viewing, and that's a vast discussion that we'll get into.
他们正在查看特定的内容，这是我们将进行的广泛讨论。
There are the social dynamics associated with being on a phone as opposed to in-person interactions.
与打电话相关的社交动态与面对面的互动不同。
And then there's, and I can't help myself, but as a neuroscientist who trained in the biology of the visual system, there's the effect of looking at something at about 8 inches to 12 inches away from you for much of the day, as opposed to navigating an environment the way that we had for hundreds of thousands of years prior.
然后，我无法控制自己，但作为一名接受过视觉系统生物学训练的神经科学家，在一天的大部分时间里看着距离你大约 8 英寸到 12 英寸的东西会产生效果，而不是像我们数十万年前那样在环境中导航。
So there are a lot of features within this thing that we call smartphone use.
因此，我们称之为智能手机使用的东西有很多功能。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There's also the disruption in sleep.
还有睡眠中断。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There's additional blue light exposure.
还有额外的蓝光曝光。
There's just so much to it.
事情就这么多了。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So if we pool all that together for the time being and put it in a basket of smartphone use, and maybe we'll pull out each of those variables one by one as we go forward, what are the numbers in 2012 in terms of how much time girls, maybe you can give us an age range, are spending with the smartphone?
因此，如果我们暂时将所有这些因素集中在一起，并将其放入智能手机使用的篮子中，也许我们会在接下来的过程中一一剔除这些变量，那么 2012 年女孩（也许您可以给我们一个年龄范围）花在智能手机上的时间是多少？
Was it they got the smartphone and immediately were spending six to eight hours a day on the thing?
是不是他们拿到智能手机后就立即每天花六到八个小时在这上面？
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or has it been gradual?
或者说是渐进的？
So let's start with the time variable.
那么让我们从时间变量开始。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Sure.
当然。
Okay, so first, the way you put it is actually very helpful.
好的，首先，你的表达方式实际上非常有帮助。
What I want listeners to imagine, let's say, like imagine on the left side of a slide.
我希望听众想象什么，比如说幻灯片左侧的想象。
I haven't made this slide, I'm formulating it in my head.
我还没有制作这张幻灯片，我只是在脑子里构思它。
Imagine on the left side of this slide, a whole bunch of harmful changes.
想象一下这张幻灯片的左侧有一大堆有害的变化。
If you're getting less sleep, that's bad.
如果你睡眠不足，那就不好了。
If you're having blue light at night, that's bad.
如果你晚上看到蓝光，那就不好了。
If you're not going out in nature, that's bad.
如果你不出去接触大自然，那是很糟糕的。
If you are sedentary.
如果你久坐不动。
So imagine about 15 different things.
想象一下 15 种不同的事物。
Oh, if you're being contacted by strange men around the world who want to have sex with you, that's not good for 11, 12-year-old girls.
哦，如果世界各地都有陌生男人联系你，想要与你发生性关系，这对 11、12 岁的女孩来说可不是什么好事。
So there's all these different potential harms, and then imagine all these different potential effects.
因此，存在所有这些不同的潜在危害，然后想象所有这些不同的潜在影响。
One of which is depression, and another is anxiety, another is self-harm, but there's doing worse in school, there's becoming more shallow, there's conflicts with your...
其中之一是抑郁，另一个是焦虑，另一个是自残，但在学校里表现越来越差，变得越来越浅薄，与你的……发生冲突。
So there's a whole bunch, and then we want to look at the causal connections.
所以有一大堆，然后我们想看看因果关系。
And what I'm trying to draw out is suppose we could quantify the degree to which sheer time, just spending five hours a day, does that make you more anxious automatically?
我想得出的是，假设我们可以量化纯粹的时间，每天只花五个小时，是否会自动让你更加焦虑？
Well, maybe a little, but that's probably not the main effect.
嗯，也许有一点，但这可能不是主要影响。
So there's a gigantic multi-causal network of effects.
因此，存在着一个巨大的多因果效应网络。
Now, I have good numbers for how much teens are using these devices and these platforms today.
现在，我有关于当今有多少青少年使用这些设备和平台的详细数据。
Pew in particular has done a great job of tracking changes in this since the 2000s.
自 2000 年代以来，皮尤在追踪这方面的变化方面尤其做得很好。
What we know today from both Pew and Gallup is that young people in America are now spending about five hours a day just on social media.
今天，我们从皮尤研究中心和盖洛普研究中心了解到，美国的年轻人现在每天在社交媒体上花费大约五个小时。
Just social media.
只是社交媒体。
Now, that includes-
现在，这包括——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mostly Instagram?
主要是Instagram？
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
No. So the huge time suck is the videos.
不。所以最浪费时间的是视频。
So it's actually TikTok and YouTube are counted in this analysis.
所以这次分析中实际上计算了 TikTok 和 YouTube。
They're counted as social media.
它们被视为社交媒体。
YouTube is marginally social media.
YouTube 算得上是社交媒体。
It's more of a general information source.
它更像是一个一般信息源。
But the point is, especially the short videos, the short videos are really, really addictive because the time between action and reinforcement is so quick that that, as you know, in behaviorism, that's the key.
但重点是，尤其是短视频，短视频真的非常容易上瘾，因为行动和强化之间的时间非常短，正如你所知，在行为主义中，这就是关键。
It's the quick reinforcement.
就是快速强化。
So five hours a day, it's a little bit more than that for girls, a little less for boys, just on social media.
所以每天五个小时，比女孩多一点，男孩少一点，只是在社交媒体上。
Thirty-five hours a week of strange stuff coming in from random weirdos on the internet.
每周有 35 小时来自互联网上随机怪人的奇怪内容。
Imagine letting your kid in port 35 hours.
想象一下让您的孩子在港口停留 35 小时。
Then you add in everything else, video games, everything else you do on a smartphone.
然后你添加其他一切，视频游戏，你在智能手机上做的所有其他事情。
So now we're up to seven to 10 hours in that range a day, and this is not counting school.
现在我们每天的学习时间在这个范围内长达 7 到 10 个小时，而且这还不包括上学时间。
Now, of course, in school, six hours a day, for a lot of kids, two or three hours of that is screen time as well.
当然，现在在学校，每天六个小时，对于很多孩子来说，其中两三个小时也是屏幕时间。
So that's why I say kids used to have a play-based childhood.
所以这就是为什么我说孩子们曾经有一个以游戏为基础的童年。
Play is the basic thing mammals do.
玩耍是哺乳动物所做的基本事情。
And since 2010 or 2012, our kids have a phone-based childhood, and I don't think that is-- It's just incompatible with healthy human development.
自 2010 年或 2012 年以来，我们的孩子度过了一个以手机为基础的童年，我不认为这与人类的健康发展不相容。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Maybe we can back up even before 2010 and talk a bit more about the play-based childhood.
也许我们甚至可以回到 2010 年之前，多谈谈以游戏为基础的童年。
I heard you say last night at a terrific lecture that you gave that when we don't trust our neighbors, we are far less likely to let our kids out to play without observation or oversight, and that leads to a whole host of negative consequences.
我昨晚听到你在一次精彩的演讲中说，当我们不信任邻居时，我们就不太可能在没有观察或监督的情况下让孩子出去玩，这会导致一系列负面后果。
So if we were to dial back the history clock even further and talk about, let's say, the 1950s, '60s, and '70s.
因此，如果我们将历史时钟拨回更远的地方，比如说 20 世纪 50 年代、60 年代和 70 年代。
I was born in '75.
我出生于 75 年。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I basically was kicked out of the house every day to go play.
我基本上每天都被赶出家门去玩。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Right, exactly.
对，完全正确。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
My mom would say, "Get out of the house." I now realize she wanted space.
我妈妈会说：“走出家门。”我现在意识到她想要空间。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But we would go down the end of the street to the cul-de-sac, and we would just play and do all sorts of things-
但我们会沿着街道的尽头走到死胡同，我们会玩耍并做各种各样的事情 -
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Get into a little trouble, adventures
遇到一点麻烦，冒险
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
some of which were destructive, and some of which were good.
其中有些是破坏性的，有些是好的。
And there were a lot of dynamics that got worked out in that process.
在此过程中解决了很多动态问题。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
My sister would go hang out with basically the older sisters of those boys.
我姐姐基本上会和那些男孩的姐姐一起出去玩。
That's kind of how our neighborhood-
我们的邻居就是这样——
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
happened to be arranged.
恰巧被安排了。
That was fortunate.
那是幸运的。
And they would do their thing.
他们会做他们的事情。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So 1950s and '60s, what did social dynamics look like among kids?
那么 20 世纪 50 年代和 60 年代，孩子们的社会动态是什么样的？
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So I think what we need to do is tell this story of what happened as a tragedy in three acts, and the first act is the loss of community, the loss of trust in each other.
所以我认为我们需要做的是用三幕来讲述这个悲剧所发生的故事，第一幕是失去社区，失去彼此的信任。
So if we go back to the '50s and '60s, but we can even go back, my parents grew up in New York City in the '30s and '40s.
所以如果我们回到 50 年代和 60 年代，但我们甚至可以回到过去，我的父母在 30 年代和 40 年代在纽约长大。
People spontaneously organize themselves into villages.
人们自发地组织成村庄。
Village life seems to be sort of the default way of living that humans have preferred for several thousand years, and it's where you know your neighbors, the kids run around, all the adults take part in supervising all the kids.
乡村生活似乎是人类几千年来首选的默认生活方式，在这里你认识你的邻居，孩子们跑来跑去，所有的成年人都参与监督所有的孩子。
But nobody has to helicopter because the kids are playing, they're doing their thing.
但没有人需要乘坐直升机，因为孩子们正在玩耍，他们正在做自己的事情。
If there's a real threat, if there's a lion or invaders, then they all come running home, whatever.
如果存在真正的威胁，如果有狮子或入侵者，那么他们都会跑回家，无论如何。
But kids need to be out playing with each other, especially outdoors.
但孩子们需要出去互相玩耍，尤其是在户外。
We evolved in savannahs.
我们在大草原上进化。
We evolved in different parts of the world.
我们在世界不同的地方进化。
We're attracted to nature.
我们被大自然所吸引。
So that's the way it always was.
所以事情一直都是这样。
Now, especially if we, in the 1950s and '60s, America had just been through a World War, and the greatest way to make people trust each other, the greatest way to boost social capital is a foreign attack, and of course, Pearl Harbor did more for American coherence than anything else in history, in modern history.
现在，特别是如果我们在 20 世纪 50 年代和 60 年代，美国刚刚经历了一场世界大战，让人们相互信任的最好方法、增加社会资本的最好方法就是外国攻击，当然，珍珠港事件对美国凝聚力的贡献比历史上、现代历史上的任何事情都多。
9/11 did that, too, but only for a little while, and then we lost it.
9/11 也做到了这一点，但只持续了一小会儿，然后我们就失去了它。
So for a lot of reasons, people trusted their neighbors.
因此，出于多种原因，人们信任他们的邻居。
Kids were out playing.
孩子们出去玩了。
My parents grew up in the Depression in New York City.
我的父母在大萧条时期的纽约长大。
The kids are all out playing stickball on the street or in a parking lot.
孩子们都在街上或停车场玩棒球。
In the 1970s, there is a real crime wave.
20 世纪 70 年代，出现了真正的犯罪浪潮。
Crime goes through the roof, actually, and it goes through the '80s.
事实上，犯罪率在整个 80 年代都达到了顶峰。
That goes all the way to the early '90s.
这一直持续到 90 年代初。
Even still, you were kicked out of the house to go play.
即使如此，你还是被赶出了家门去玩。
Even in New York City, all kids went out to play.
即使在纽约市，所有的孩子都出去玩。
That's just the way it was.
事情就是这样。
But we began to lose trust in each other for a lot of reasons.
但由于很多原因，我们开始对彼此失去信任。
Robert Putnam wrote about this in "Bowling Alone," the loss of social capital.
罗伯特·普特南在《独自打保龄球》中写到了社会资本的损失。
Many reasons for that, the changing media environment, air conditioning, and television.
造成这种情况的原因有很多，包括不断变化的媒体环境、空调和电视。
People are not hanging out on their porch in the summertime to get away from the heat.
夏天人们不会在门廊上闲逛以躲避炎热。
They close the door, and they put on the AC, and they watch TV.
他们关上门，打开空调，看电视。
Family sizes are shrinking.
家庭规模正在缩小。
There are not that many kids around.
周围没有那么多孩子。
So for a lot of reasons, the '90s is the key decade where act two of the tragedy happens, and that's the loss of the play-based childhood.
因此，出于多种原因，90 年代是悲剧第二幕发生的关键十年，那就是失去了以游戏为基础的童年。
So in America and Britain, we freaked out about child abduction and child sexual abuse.
因此，在美国和英国，我们对儿童绑架和儿童性虐待感到恐惧。
Some of the scandals were real.
有些丑闻是真实的。
The Boy Scouts, the Catholic Church, there were cases where trusted organizations were covering up abuse.
童子军、天主教会、受信任的组织都曾掩盖过虐待行为。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I recall the abduction thing, the milk carton thing.
我还记得绑架事件、牛奶盒事件。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Yep, that's right.
是的，没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And there was a show, I think "My Name Is Brian"-
有一场演出，我想是“我的名字叫布莱恩”-
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
America's Most Wanted.
美国头号通缉犯。
Oh, okay
哦，好吧
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
about the kid who was abducted, and then all he remembered, I think it's a true story, was that his name was Brian.
关于那个被绑架的孩子，然后他只记得，我认为这是一个真实的故事，就是他的名字叫布莱恩。
He would just remind himself every night-
他每天晚上都会提醒自己——
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Oh, gosh
哦，天哪
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
about his real name.
关于他的真名。
I think they found him eventually in Berkeley.
我认为他们最终在伯克利找到了他。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Wow.
哇。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Not calling out Berkeley.
不叫伯克利。
I lived in Berkeley for a long time.
我在伯克利住了很长时间。
But there seemed to be the discovery of abducted kids, excuse me, in Berkeley.
但抱歉，在伯克利似乎发现了被绑架的孩子。
There are a few other cases there.
还有其他一些案例。
I don't know what that's about.
我不知道那是关于什么的。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In any event I grew up thinking that you could get kidnapped.
无论如何，我从小就认为你可能会被绑架。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Right.
对。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Which is so important.
这非常重要。
It's the most terrifying possibility for any parent.
对于任何父母来说，这是最可怕的可能性。
But when I was doing the research for "The Coddling of the American Mind," I found, according to FBI statistics, there's only about 100 to 150 true kidnappings a year in our whole country.
但当我在做《美国心灵的溺爱》的研究时，我发现，根据联邦调查局的统计，我们全国每年只有大约100到150起真正的绑架案。
Because if a child-- Like who would take a child?
因为如果是一个孩子——就像谁会带孩子一样？
It's a really difficult crime, and you're going to-- Who would steal a child from a store?
这是一个非常困难的犯罪，你会——谁会从商店偷一个孩子？
Parents are afraid if your kid goes to the next aisle in the grocery store, they're going to be ki- How are you going to take a kicking and screaming kid out of a store?
父母们担心，如果您的孩子走到杂货店的下一个过道，他们会大吃一惊——您如何将一个又踢又叫的孩子带出商店？
It's only-
这只是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And yet, sorry to interrupt, but the show "America's Most Wanted," I believe, was hosted by a guy whose kid was abducted-
然而，抱歉打断一下，我相信“美国头号通缉犯”这个节目是由一个孩子被绑架的人主持的——
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
That's right.
没错。
Exactly
正是如此
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and eventually found dead.
最终被发现死亡。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Adam Walsh.
亚当·沃尔什.
That's right.
这是正确的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
So there was this propagation of this fear.
因此，这种恐惧就开始传播。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
That's right.
没错。
It happens.
它发生了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
One of the deepest fears of any parent I can imagine is that.
我能想象到的所有父母最深的恐惧之一就是这一点。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
That's right.
没错。
But the point is that these crimes are extraordinarily rare.
但关键是这些犯罪行为极其罕见。
It's almost always the non-custodial parent who takes a kid.
几乎总是由非监护人的父母带孩子。
It's a family member because there's a fight within the family.
之所以是家庭成员，是因为家庭内部有争斗。
So we fear the wrong things.
所以我们害怕错误的事情。
We're terrified of kidnapping, but locking our kids up, overprotecting them, has spiked the suicide rate so much that the death toll is vastly higher from the extra suicides than it would be if we could completely wipe out kidnapping.
我们害怕绑架，但把我们的孩子关起来，过度保护他们，导致自杀率大幅上升，以至于额外自杀造成的死亡人数比我们完全消灭绑架所造成的死亡人数要高得多。
Which, again, doesn't-- But the availability heuristic, we say in psychology, if it's visible, if it comes to mind easily, then people will freak out about that.
这又不是——但是可用性启发式，我们在心理学中说，如果它是可见的，如果它很容易浮现在脑海中，那么人们就会对此感到害怕。
And that's why people sometimes are afraid to fly in a plane.
这就是为什么人们有时害怕乘坐飞机。
They think a car is safer.
他们认为汽车更安全。
So, for a lot of reasons, we freak out in the '90s.
因此，由于多种原因，我们在 90 年代感到惊慌失措。
We stop letting our kids out.
我们不再让我们的孩子出去。
We think they must always be supervised.
我们认为他们必须始终受到监督。
So that's act two of the tragedy.
这就是悲剧的第二幕。
And as that act is happening, we're keeping our kids inside.
当这种行为发生时，我们把孩子留在里面。
And guess what?
你猜怎么着？
These computer things that we started getting in the '80s, they're getting interesting because now we hook them up to the internet.
这些我们在 80 年代开始使用的计算机产品，它们变得越来越有趣，因为现在我们将它们连接到互联网上。
In the '80s, what were you going to do?
80年代，你打算做什么？
WordStar and some primitive video games?
WordStar 和一些原始的视频游戏？
But in the '90s, you get the internet, and now the kids, especially the boys, the early internet was much more of interest to boys.
但在 90 年代，你有了互联网，现在的孩子们，尤其是男孩，早期的互联网对男孩更感兴趣。
Boys would take computers apart.
男孩们会拆开电脑。
They could build computers.
他们可以建造计算机。
They would learn to program.
他们将学习编程。
So the boys in particular, they're okay with losing out on the outdoor play because the internet is so amazing.
所以特别是男孩们，他们可以接受失去户外玩耍的机会，因为互联网是如此神奇。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And nerddom started to become cool.
书呆子开始变得很酷。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Yes.
是的。
Geek.
极客。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Revenge of the Nerds, Steve Jobs, and Steve kind of-
书呆子的复仇，史蒂夫·乔布斯，还有史蒂夫——
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Exactly
正是如此
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
And I know it because I grew up in Palo Alto, you'd see Steve downtown.
我知道这一点是因为我在帕洛阿尔托长大，你会在市中心看到史蒂夫。
He had this, it wasn't really like rock star persona, but he kind of weaved back and forth.
他有这个，这并不像摇滚明星的角色，但他有点来回编织。
He was an icon.
他是一个偶像。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Kind of like a counterculture guy.
有点像反主流文化的人。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But then he was into design and computers.
但后来他开始喜欢设计和计算机。
Right, but he was still really geeky.
是的，但他仍然很极客。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
That's right.
这是正确的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Like the fonts were lame.
就像字体很蹩脚一样。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
He brought beautiful fonts to it.
他给它带来了漂亮的字体。
He started bringing the aesthetic forward.
他开始推动美学的发展。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then, of course, girls and women got involved in computers more.
当然，随后女孩和女性更多地接触了计算机。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Yes.
是的。
Although, that really only evens out once you get social media.
不过，只有当你有了社交媒体后，这才真正变得平衡。
Boys are more interested in things and mechanics and systems.
男孩对事物、机械和系统更感兴趣。
Girls have a more evolved and elaborate mental map of social space.
女孩对于社会空间有着更加进化和复杂的心理地图。
They're more interested in social relationships.
他们对社交关系更感兴趣。
So once you get social media, that attracts the girls more, and then it becomes pretty even.
所以一旦你有了社交媒体，就会更多地吸引女孩，然后事情就会变得相当均匀。
That all boys and girls, they're just incredibly attracted to the internet and things on the internet.
所有男孩和女孩都对互联网和互联网上的事物非常感兴趣。
But that sets us up for act three, which is the great rewiring.
但这为我们准备了第三幕，即伟大的重新布线。
That's the arrival of the phone-based childhood that we just talked about between 2010 and 2015.
这就是我们刚才谈到的 2010 年至 2015 年间基于手机的童年时代的到来。
That's when everything changes.
那时一切都会改变。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
As many of you know, I've been taking AG1 for more than 10 years now, so I'm delighted that they're sponsoring this podcast.
你们很多人都知道，我服用 AG1 已有 10 多年了，所以我很高兴他们赞助这个播客。
To be clear, I don't take AG1 because they're a sponsor.
需要明确的是，我选择 AG1 并不是因为他们是赞助商。
Rather, they are a sponsor because I take AG1.
相反，他们是赞助商，因为我选择了 AG1。
In fact, I take AG1 once and often twice every single day, and I've done that since starting way back in 2012.
事实上，我每天服用一次 AG1，经常服用两次，早在 2012 年我就开始这样做了。
There is so much conflicting information out there nowadays about what proper nutrition is, but here's what there seems to be a general consensus on.
关于什么是适当的营养，现在有很多相互矛盾的信息，但以下是似乎达成的普遍共识。
Whether you're an omnivore, a carnivore, a vegetarian, or a vegan, I think it's generally agreed that you should get most of your food from unprocessed or minimally processed sources, which allows you to eat enough but not overeat, get plenty of vitamins and minerals, probiotics, and micronutrients that we all need for physical and mental health.
无论你是杂食动物、肉食动物、素食主义者还是纯素食主义者，我认为人们普遍认为你应该从未经加工或最低限度加工的来源获取大部分食物，这样你就可以吃得足够但不过量，获得充足的维生素和矿物质、益生菌和微量营养素，这些都是我们身心健康所需的。
Now, I personally am an omnivore, and I strive to get most of my food from unprocessed or minimally processed sources.
现在，我个人是杂食动物，我努力从未加工或最低限度加工的来源获取大部分食物。
But the reason I still take AG1 once and often twice every day is that it ensures I get all of those vitamins, minerals, probiotics, et cetera.
但我仍然每天服用一次 AG1（通常是两次）的原因是它可以确保我获得所有维生素、矿物质、益生菌等。
But it also has adaptogens to help me cope with stress.
但它也有适应原来帮助我应对压力。
It's basically a nutritional insurance policy meant to augment, not replace, quality food.
它基本上是一项营养保险政策，旨在增强而不是取代优质食品。
So by drinking a serving of AG1 in the morning and again in the afternoon or evening, I cover all of my foundational nutritional needs.
因此，通过早上喝一份 AG1，然后在下午或晚上再喝一次，我就可以满足我所有的基本营养需求。
And I, like so many other people that take AG1, report feeling much better in a number of important ways, such as energy levels, digestion, sleep, and more.
和许多其他服用 AG1 的人一样，我报告在许多重要方面感觉好多了，例如能量水平、消化、睡眠等。
So while many supplements out there are really directed towards obtaining one specific outcome, AG1 is foundational nutrition designed to support all aspects of well-being related to mental health and physical health.
因此，虽然许多补充剂实际上是为了获得一种特定的结果，但 AG1 是基础营养，旨在支持与心理健康和身体健康相关的各个方面的福祉。
If you'd like to try AG1, you can go to drinkag1.com/huberman to claim a special offer.
如果您想尝试 AG1，可以访问 Drinkag1.com/huberman 申请特别优惠。
They'll give you five free travel packs with your order, plus a year's supply of vitamin D3 K2.
您订购后，他们将赠送 5 个免费旅行套装，以及一年的维生素 D3 K2。
Again, that's drinkag1.com/huberman.
再说一遍，这是 Drinkag1.com/huberman。
Okay, so we've got three acts, all of which are tragedies.
好的，我们有三幕，全都是悲剧。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Yep.
是的。
Loss of community.
失去社区。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
So community and trust is down.
因此，社区和信任度下降了。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
That's right, which then makes us not-- Then act two is we take away the play-based childhood because we're so afraid because we no longer trust our neighbors.
是的，这让我们不——然后第二幕是我们剥夺了以游戏为基础的童年，因为我们非常害怕，因为我们不再信任我们的邻居。
And then act three is as long as the kids are inside and on computers already, oh, well now just a smartphone and a tablet.
第三幕是只要孩子们已经在室内并使用电脑了，哦，现在只有智能手机和平板电脑了。
These are just cooler computers.
这些只是更酷的计算机。
Nothing wrong with that, right?
这没什么问题吧？
And that's what we thought early on.
这就是我们很早就想到的。
In the early 2010s, we thought these things were miraculous.
在 2010 年代初，我们认为这些事情很神奇。
Oh, you know, if my kids use them, maybe they'll be the next Steve Jobs.
哦，你知道，如果我的孩子使用它们，也许他们会成为下一个史蒂夫·乔布斯。
Maybe they'll be really technically sophisticated, we thought.
我们想，也许它们在技术上会非常复杂。
And it's not true.
但这不是真的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And now we're in this third act of the tragedy.
现在我们正处于悲剧的第三幕中。
You touched on some of the male/female differences.
您谈到了一些男性/女性的差异。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Maybe you could talk about those a little bit more.
也许你可以多谈谈这些。
So you said girls tend to focus more on social dynamics, boys more on systems.
所以你说女孩往往更关注社会动态，男孩更关注系统。
I've heard you say that the boys, in general Veer toward more, for lack of a better way to put it, more on the spectrum-
我听你说过，男孩们总的来说倾向于更多，因为缺乏更好的方式来表达，更多地在范围内——
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
type behaviors.
类型行为。
Could you elaborate on that and-
你能详细说明一下吗-
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
how it impacts online use and the particular sites that they tend to gravitate towards?
它如何影响在线使用以及他们倾向于访问的特定网站？
And then on the other side, for girls.
然后在另一边，对于女孩来说。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Yeah.
是的。
One of the psychological traits that is the biggest differentiator between boys and girls and between men and women, let me state clearly, the sex differences in ability are generally pretty small, and they're few and far between.
心理特征是男孩和女孩、男人和女人之间最大的区别之一，我要明确指出的是，能力上的性别差异通常很小，而且相差甚远。
Sex differences in interest are all over the place, and they're often very large, and they're true across cultures, and some are true across species.
兴趣上的性别差异无处不在，而且往往很大，而且跨文化、甚至跨物种都是如此。
It's what do you enjoy.
这就是你所享受的。
And here I'm drawing on the work of Simon Baron-Cohen, who's the cousin of Sacha Baron-Cohen, in the UK.
在这里，我借鉴了西蒙·拜伦·科恩 (Simon Baron-Cohen) 的作品，他是英国萨莎·拜伦·科恩 (Sacha Baron-Cohen) 的表弟。
And Baron-Cohen's work on autism shows that because of prenatal effects, prenatal testosterone changing the body, changing the brain, we all start off as girls in utero after conception, but then the 10th week of gestation, if there's a Y chromosome, it triggers a little bit of testosterone, which then makes the testes develop, and then that creates testosterone.
巴伦-科恩关于自闭症的研究表明，由于产前效应，产前睾酮改变了身体，改变了大脑，我们在受孕后都是子宫内的女孩，但在怀孕第10周，如果有Y染色体，它会触发一点睾酮，然后使睾丸发育，然后产生睾酮。
And all of this, the effect on the brain appears to be a shift a little bit away from empathizing.
所有这些，对大脑的影响似乎有点偏离同理心。
In Baron-Cohen's terms, you can either be a high empathizer, or you can be a high systemizer.
用拜伦-科恩的话说，你要么是一个高度共情者，要么是一个高度系统化者。
Systemizers are people who love subway maps, and they pick them up quickly, and they like programming, and they like to see how systems are related.
系统化者是那些喜欢地铁地图的人，他们很快就能掌握它们，他们喜欢编程，他们喜欢看看系统是如何相关的。
It's possible to be high on both, but most people are more one way or than the other.
两者都有可能很高，但大多数人都偏向其中一种或另一种。
So once you see that, now you can understand why this amazing new internet drew everybody, but it drew the boys and the girls to different parts of it.
所以一旦你看到了这一点，现在你就可以理解为什么这个令人惊叹的新互联网吸引了所有人，但它吸引了男孩和女孩到它的不同部分。
And so a metaphor that I've started using these days, actually, I did get this from Yascha Mounk has a great book called "The Identity Trap," and Yascha points out that a trap has to have bait in it that's attractive.
所以我最近开始使用一个比喻，实际上，我确实从 Yascha Mounk 那里得到了这个，他有一本很棒的书，名叫《身份陷阱》，Yascha 指出，陷阱中必须有有吸引力的诱饵。
There has to be something that makes the creature want to go into the trap.
一定有什么东西让这个生物想要进入陷阱。
And then once they get the bait, there has to be something that prevents them from leaving.
一旦他们上钩了，就一定有什么东西阻止他们离开。
That's what a trap is.
这就是陷阱。
And in this case, if you want to catch a girl, don't show her the operating system of a computer.
而在这种情况下，如果你想追到一个女孩，就不要给她看电脑的操作系统。
Don't show her war games.
不要给她看战争游戏。
Show her what Maria just said about Julia, or what Julia just said about her.
向她展示玛丽亚刚刚对朱莉娅说了些什么，或者朱莉娅刚刚对她说了些什么。
Do you want to know?
你想知道吗？
Of course, you want to know.
当然，你想知道。
And everybody does, but girls more than boys.
每个人都这样做，但女孩比男孩多。
They want to understand the social dynamics.
他们想了解社会动态。
So the girls go rushing into Instagram, where everyone's posting photos of themselves, of other people, of the party they were at.
于是女孩们纷纷涌入 Instagram，每个人都在上面发布自己、其他人以及她们参加的派对的照片。
The girls go rushing into, well, social media in general, Instagram, Pinterest, and Tumblr were the three big ones that girls went into in the early 2010s.
女孩们普遍涌入社交媒体，Instagram、Pinterest 和 Tumblr 是 2010 年代初女孩们进入的三大社交媒体。
And then once they take the bait, they can't escape, because now that everyone is talking on Instagram, let's say, if you leave, you're alone.
一旦他们上钩，他们就无法逃脱，因为现在每个人都在 Instagram 上谈论，可以说，如果你离开，你就孤身一人了。
You're not going to talk to anyone.
你不会和任何人说话。
So that's how you trap girls, and that's what happened to girls.
这就是你如何诱骗女孩的，这就是女孩的遭遇。
How do you trap boys?
怎样诱骗男孩子？
What are the things that boys most want to do?
男生最想做的事情是什么？
If you let them do whatever they want, what are the two things that really attract them?
如果让他们为所欲为，那么真正吸引他们的两件事是什么？
One is war, and the other is sex.
一是战争，二是性。
So if you say, do you want to watch a movie that has violence in it, or do you want to watch sports, which is play war, boys are more likely to say yes.
因此，如果你说，你想看一部有暴力内容的电影，还是想看体育比赛，即打仗，男孩更有可能说“是”。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or play a first-person shooter game.
或者玩第一人称射击游戏。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
That's right.
这是正确的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
So it's hunting, and it's war.
所以这是狩猎，也是战争。
And if you can simulate that, when I was a kid, there was the beginning, I remember playing Sea Wolf.
如果你能模拟一下，当我还是个孩子的时候，有一个开始，我记得玩海狼。
You shoot torpedoes at a boat in the distance, and it was very primitive technology.
你向远处的一艘船发射鱼雷，这是非常原始的技术。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or even Battleship.
甚至是战舰。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Oh, that's right.
哦，是这样。
Even Battleship.
甚至战列舰。
That's right.
这是正确的。
That's right.
这是正确的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That was a big deal.
这是一件大事。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Yeah, that's right.
是的，没错。
These little plastic boats.
这些小塑料船。
That's right.
这是正确的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Sinking somebody else's battleship-
击沉别人的战舰——
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Yep.
是的。
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
by intuiting where the location of their ships were behind a wall.
通过直觉判断他们的船只在墙后的位置。
It was so satisfying to sink somebody's battleship.
击沉某人的战舰真是令人满足。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
So boys really want to play at war.
所以男孩们真的很想玩战争。
And I really learned this when I was 30, and I have a group of buddies from college, and we get together once a year.
我在30岁的时候才真正了解到这一点，我有一群大学时期的好友，我们每年聚会一次。
And one year I hosted in Charlottesville, and we played paintball.
有一年我在夏洛茨维尔主持，我们玩彩弹射击。
We went to a paintball place, and there were about five or seven other guys, and we divided up into teams, and we were divided among ourselves on the teams.
我们去了一个彩弹射击场，大约还有五七个其他人，我们分成了几组，我们又分成了几组。
And it was unbelievably thrilling to work with other guys, to hunt and shoot my friends, and we came out afterwards, all of us, and it hurts when you get hit with the paintball.
和其他人一起工作，狩猎和射击我的朋友，真是令人难以置信的兴奋，后来我们所有人都出来了，当你被彩弹击中时，会很痛。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, those things hurt.
是的，那些事情很伤人。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
It hurts.
很痛。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You'll welt.
你会感到舒服的。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
That's right.
这是正确的。
Which is important.
这很重要。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
It's actually very important because then you really take it seriously.
这实际上非常重要，因为这样你就会真正认真地对待它。
You really don't want to get shot.
你真的不想被枪杀。
But it was absolutely thrilling.
但这绝对令人兴奋。
It really felt like there was a room in my heart, as a man, there's a room in my heart for war that had never been opened.
真的感觉心里有一个房间，作为一个男人，我心里有一个从未打开过的战争房间。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
So boys want to play at that, and then the multiplayer video games, the first-person shooter games, all these things let them do that.
所以男孩们想玩这个，然后多人视频游戏、第一人称射击游戏，所有这些东西都让他们这么做。
The other thing, of course, that boys want to do is look at naked women.
当然，男孩想做的另一件事是看裸体女人。
And so it used to be "Playboy Magazine," now it's super hardcore sex with anal sex and gang bangs and choking and all sorts of things.
所以它曾经是《花花公子杂志》，现在它是超级性交，包括肛交、群交、窒息和各种各样的东西。
So the boys really get...
所以男孩们真的...
That's how you trap a boy.
这就是你如何困住一个男孩的。
Let them play war games, and give them sex.
让他们玩战争游戏，并给他们做爱。
And once they do that, they can't escape.
一旦他们这样做了，他们就无法逃脱。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So interesting.
太有趣了。
We did an episode long ago on sexual development, meaning how hormones influence brain development, which I spent a little bit of time on for my master's, and by the way, you got the biology exactly right.
很久以前，我们做了一集关于性发育的节目，这意味着激素如何影响大脑发育，我在硕士学位上花了一点时间，顺便说一句，你的生物学完全正确。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Oh, good.
哦，很好。
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it's fascinating the way that these hormones organize the brain.
这些激素组织大脑的方式令人着迷。
And some people enjoy learning that it's testosterone from the testes.
有些人喜欢知道它是来自睾丸的睾酮。
It's the Y chromosome, then the testes, and then testosterone that's converted to estrogen that then actually has the organizing effects of masculinizing the brain.
Y染色体，然后是睾丸，然后是睾酮，它们被转化为雌激素，然后实际上具有使大脑男性化的组织作用。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Oh yeah.
哦，是的。
Weird, right?
很奇怪，对吧？
It's weird.
很奇怪。
Yeah.
是的。
I know.
我知道。
It's counterintuitive.
这是违反直觉的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There are all these flips in biology, counterintuitive flips.
生物学中存在着所有这些反直觉的翻转。
But I like to mention the flips because they normalize the idea that testosterone creates maleness and estrogen creates femaleness.
但我喜欢提到这些翻转，因为它们使睾丸激素创造男性气质、雌激素创造女性气质的观念正常化。
That's actually not true.
这实际上不是真的。
But you got the biology exactly right.
但你的生物学原理完全正确。
But I was going to add one more thing besides war, violence, and sex.
但除了战争、暴力和性之外，我还要添加一件事。
There seems to be a An interest by boys in remote control things.
男孩子们似乎对遥控东西很感兴趣。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Oh, absolutely.
哦，绝对是。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Remote con-
远程控制
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Action at a distance
远距离行动
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Action at a distance.
远距离行动。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So remote control cars.
所以遥控汽车。
I never had a remote control helicopter.
我从来没有拥有过遥控直升机。
I would've-
我会-
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Oh, they were the most thrilling
哦，他们是最激动人心的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
died to get one.
为了得到一个而死。
But remote control car that we built, my dad and I built together-
但是我们建造的遥控车，我和我爸爸一起建造的-
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that was thrilling.
那太令人兴奋了。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then when we talk about girls, and some of the preferences for certain activities-
然后当我们谈论女孩以及对某些活动的一些偏好时-
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
maybe we'll get into some others.
也许我们会讨论其他一些。
But yeah, something about remote control-
但是，是的，关于远程控制的一些事情-
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Absolutely
绝对
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
vehicles.
车辆。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And vehicles, generally.
一般来说还有车辆。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
So there's an important psychological word called effectance, made up by White in the 1950s.
所以有一个重要的心理学术语叫做效应，是White在20世纪50年代创造的。
Effectance is the desire to be a cause.
效果是成为原因的愿望。
I had this effect on the world.
我对世界产生了这种影响。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
And a nine-month-old infant in the crib, when he discovers, "If I pull this, if I hit this, a sound happens," it's thrilling.
婴儿床上的一个九个月大的婴儿，当他发现，“如果我拉这个，如果我敲这个，就会发出声音”，这是令人兴奋的。
You did that.
你做到了。
And this stays with us for life.
这将伴随我们一生。
You want to see that the things you do have an effect.
您希望看到您所做的事情产生效果。
And especially boys are more in the physical world, mechanical world.
尤其是男孩更多地处于物质世界、机械世界。
And so shooting a gun, I remember when I was a kid, I had a BB gun that I bought at a church bazaar.
所以射击枪，我记得当我还是个孩子的时候，我有一把在教堂集市买的 BB 枪。
I hid it from my mother, kept it in the closet.
我把它藏起来，藏在衣柜里，不让妈妈发现。
But my best friend and I, we'd set up cans on a row, and you shoot them, and boom.
但我和我最好的朋友，我们会把罐子排成一排，然后你射击它们，然后轰隆隆地响。
You knock it.
你敲它。
It's amazing.
太棒了。
It's thrilling.
太刺激了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
That does seem to be a sex difference.
这似乎确实是性别差异。
Now, girls, I think, now here I'm speculating, but girls seem to be more interested in having an effect in the social world.
现在，女孩们，我想，现在我在这里猜测，但女孩们似乎对在社交世界中产生影响更感兴趣。
So everybody wants to have an effect, but boys are more focused on mechanics, girls a bit more on relationships and the social world.
所以每个人都想产生影响，但男孩更关注机制，女孩更关注人际关系和社交世界。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I'm sure Freud had a field day with this, but what is the apparent, I don't have the numbers on this, obsession of girls and horses, and caretaking of animals?
我确信弗洛伊德对此很感兴趣，但显而易见的是，我没有这方面的数字，对女孩和马的痴迷，以及对动物的照顾？
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Oh.
哦。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And yet, there are also a lot of wonderful stories about boys taking care of dogs.
然而，还有很多关于男孩照顾狗的精彩故事。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Like I read "Where the Red Fern Grows" maybe 50 times, and I love dogs, and I love taking care of, raising my dog.
就像我读了《红蕨生长的地方》大约 50 遍一样，我喜欢狗，我喜欢照顾、养育我的狗。
But there seems to be something about the stereotype-
但似乎有一些刻板印象——
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
That's right
没错
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
is girls and horses.
是女孩和马。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Yeah, that's right.
是的，没错。
Yeah.
是的。
Well, the simple part is girls, on average, are a little bit more compassionate.
嗯，最简单的一点是，平均而言，女孩更有同情心。
They feel the pain of creatures more.
他们更能感受到生灵的痛苦。
Boys are more into animal cruelty as a fun thing to do, an interesting thing to do.
男孩们更喜欢虐待动物，因为这是一件有趣的事情，一件有趣的事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's just disappointing.
这真是令人失望。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Effectant.
有效。
So girls are more compassionate.
所以女孩子比较有同情心。
Girls tend more to want to be a veterinarian than boys do because girls love animals.
女孩比男孩更想成为一名兽医，因为女孩喜欢动物。
My daughter was desperate for a pet, and we got her a leopard gecko when she was about eight or nine.
我女儿非常想要一只宠物，当她八九岁的时候，我们给她买了一只豹纹守宫。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Those are cool.
那些很酷。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
They're really cool.
他们真的很酷。
But she was crying one day because she could tell, like, "It's never going to love me." And she desperately wanted a-
但有一天她哭了，因为她知道，“它永远不会爱我。”而她迫切地想要一个——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But the buzzer, you don't know, maybe it's links or how they-
但是蜂鸣器，你不知道，也许是链接或者它们如何-
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
No, it's a reptile.
不，它是爬行动物。
No, they're not mammals.
不，它们不是哺乳动物。
They don't have the bond.
他们没有债券。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
And she was desperate for a dog, and she begged for years for a puppy, and we finally got one.
她非常想要一只狗，多年来她一直在乞求一只小狗，我们终于得到了一只。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
She needed an animal with a forebrain.
她需要一种有前脑的动物。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
She needed an animal, yeah.
是的，她需要一只动物。
Well, she needed a mammal.
嗯，她需要一只哺乳动物。
She needed a mammal.
她需要一只哺乳动物。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Now, the horse thing, that's different.
现在，马的事情就不同了。
I'm not going to speculate on that.
我不会对此进行推测。
I have heard some speculation that it's because the musculature, it's something about, it has a feeling of masculinity.
我听到一些猜测，认为这是因为肌肉组织，它有一种男性气质的感觉。
But I don't know.
但我不知道。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But that's very Freudian.
但这是非常弗洛伊德式的。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Yeah, yeah.
是啊，是啊。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I was wondering whether or not it was the-
我想知道是否是——
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
I don't even want to get near that.
我什至不想靠近那个。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
I was wondering whether or not it was something about the healthy requirement for caretaking, the brushing-
我想知道这是否与护理、刷牙的健康要求有关——
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
the cleaning.
清洁。
The caretaking of the animal is pretty elaborate when it comes to a horse.
对于马来说，照顾这种动物是相当复杂的。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
My first girlfriend had a horse.
我的第一个女朋友有一匹马。
She spent more time with that horse than with me.
她和那匹马在一起的时间比和我在一起的时间还多。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And the amount of care, like if the horse was colicking-
还有大量的关心，就像马在绞痛一样——
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
she would literally go sleep with it in the barn.
她真的会带着它在谷仓里睡觉。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it seemed like she loved the amount of love that was available to give to the animal.
她似乎很喜欢给予动物那么多的爱。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, anyway.
是的，无论如何。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We can-
我们可以——
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
I would put that in a giant bucket called biophilia.
我会把它放在一个叫做生物亲和力的大桶里。
It's a term that I love from E.
这是我很喜欢 E 的一个术语。
O.
奥。
Wilson.
威尔逊.
Just that our species, we evolved in nature, we evolved with relationships with animals.
只是我们的物种，我们在自然界中进化，我们在与动物的关系中进化。
And we crave it, we seek it out.
我们渴望它，我们寻找它。
We can fall in love with animals.
我们可以爱上动物。
We have relationships.
我们有关系。
So I think that's a healthy part of life.
所以我认为这是生活中健康的一部分。
And again, it's another area where a phone-based childhood just takes you away from all of that.
再说一遍，这是另一个领域，基于手机的童年会让你远离这一切。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's interesting, this difference between systems and relationships.
有趣的是，系统和关系之间的差异。
I was obsessed with aquaria.
我对水族馆很着迷。
Still am.
仍然是。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I love aquaria.
我喜欢水族馆。
I love freshwater tanks.
我喜欢淡水鱼缸。
Aquascaping is something I plan to get back into at some point soon.
水族造景是我计划很快重新开始的事情。
But the most interesting part about it was which fish could go with which-
但最有趣的部分是哪种鱼可以和哪种鱼搭配——
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
who would eat who, how many plants-
谁会吃谁，有多少植物-
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
what the density of fish needed to be in order to maintain the ecosystem, and how to not get a system crash.
为了维持生态系统，鱼的密度需要多少，以及如何避免系统崩溃。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It wasn't so much about the relationships between the fish-
这与鱼之间的关系无关——
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Exactly
正是如此
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
or to the fish.
或对鱼。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
So it'd be interesting to see if there's a sex difference on aquariums, whether it's more a boy thing because of the interest in complex systems.
因此，看看水族馆是否存在性别差异，是否因为对复杂系统的兴趣而更多地属于男孩，这将是很有趣的。
But you know what I'd really like to do with you now, as long as we're talking about these developmental pathways, I'm hoping that we can talk about...
但你知道我现在真正想和你一起做什么，只要我们谈论这些发展途径，我希望我们可以谈论......
Oh, let's stay on sexual development.
哦，让我们继续关注性发育。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Because this is something, I just have a little section in the book.
因为这很重要，所以我在书中只写了一小部分。
In the chapter on boys, I have a section where I review the research on pornography.
在关于男孩的章节中，我有一个部分回顾了色情研究。
And huge amounts of study of pornography over the years.
多年来对色情作品进行了大量研究。
But the hardcore pornography, high-resolution video, boys watching it for, many boys, well, a large number of boys go every day to pornography sites, often more than once a day.
但是硬核色情内容，高分辨率视频，男孩观看它是为了，很多男孩，嗯，大量男孩每天都会去色情网站，通常每天不止一次。
So I'd love to hear your thoughts on how is that going to change sexual development during puberty.
所以我很想听听您对这将如何改变青春期性发育的想法。
A boy who starts at, say, at age 12, 13, and does it for 10 years.
一个男孩从 12 岁、13 岁开始，持续 10 年。
Could we expect that that boy will be different when he's 22?
我们能预料到那个男孩22岁时会有所不同吗？
His dating life will be different?
他的约会生活会有所不同吗？
Tell me what you think is happening there.
告诉我你认为那里发生了什么。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
In the brain, and socially, and hormonally.
在大脑、社交和荷尔蒙方面。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sure, absolutely.
当然，绝对。
And I'm not going to demonize pornography, nor am I going to celebrate it.
我不会妖魔化色情作品，也不会庆祝它。
All I'll say is that my understanding of the dopamine reinforcement system, and I like to call it a reinforcement system as opposed to a reward system, because people generally think that dopamine and dopamine hits relate to pleasure But dopamine is more of a motivator.
我要说的只是我对多巴胺强化系统的理解，我喜欢称其为强化系统而不是奖励系统，因为人们普遍认为多巴胺和多巴胺的点击与快乐有关，但多巴胺更多的是一种激励因素。
As a neuromodulator, it creates a kind of an agitation state- To want more ...
作为一种神经调节剂，它会产生一种焦躁状态——想要更多……
that puts us in a state of focus and foraging- Mm ...
这让我们处于专注和觅食的状态——嗯……
to resolve some gap between how we feel and how we'd like to feel- Mm ...
解决我们的感受和我们想要的感受之间的一些差距——嗯……
by seeking things like sex, like food when we're hungry, like warmth when we're cold, like cool when we're too warm.
通过寻求诸如性之类的东西，比如饥饿时的食物，寒冷时的温暖，太热时的凉爽。
It's a universal currency of pursuit- Okay ...
这是一种通用的追求货币——好吧……
of craving and wanting as opposed to having.
渴望和想要而不是拥有。
Mm.
毫米。
Okay.
好的。
Dopamine does a lot more than that, and other neuromodulators are involved in wanting and craving, but dopamine is central to that.
多巴胺的作用远不止于此，其他神经调节剂也参与欲望和渴望，但多巴胺是其中的核心。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
So I think it's not just fair to say, but it's a ground truth that whether or not it's a drug like methamphetamine, cocaine, crack cocaine in particular, or some other drug that hits the system fast and creates a big, big inflection in dopamine- Mm-hmm ...
所以我认为这不仅是公平的说法，而且这是一个基本事实，无论它是像甲基苯丙胺、可卡因、特别是快克可卡因这样的药物，还是其他一些快速作用于系统并在多巴胺中产生很大很大变化的药物——嗯嗯……
that the more rapid the rise in dopamine- Mm ...
多巴胺上升得越快——嗯……
the bigger the crash- Mm ...
崩溃越大 - 嗯...
in dopamine afterwards, and the more miserable you feel afterwards.
之后你会产生多巴胺，之后你会感到更加痛苦。
Mm.
毫米。
And the more repeat of the behavior that initiated the peak will occur- Mm ...
并且引发峰值的行为会发生更多的重复 - 嗯......
AKA addiction.
又名成瘾。
Okay.
好的。
Or at least extreme habit formation, depending on how one defines those.
或者至少是极端习惯的形成，这取决于人们如何定义它们。
When it comes to dopamine, the other key thing to know is that dopamine, in particular, high inflections in dopamine, big peaks in dopamine that occur without much effort- Mm ...
当谈到多巴胺时，另一个要知道的关键事情是多巴胺，特别是多巴胺的高拐点，多巴胺的大峰值，无需太多努力就会出现 - 嗯......
in particular, the kinds of effort that evolved to bring about the- Yeah ...
特别是，为了实现——是的……而付出的各种努力
the dopamine release, such as courting- Yes ...
多巴胺释放，例如求爱 - 是的......
dating, learning your preferences, learning the other person's preferences, working out issues of- Yeah ...
约会，了解你的喜好，了解对方的喜好，解决问题 - 是的......
discussion, consent, negotiation, et cetera.
讨论、同意、谈判等。
When dopamine arrives quickly without effort, such as with amphetamine, crack cocaine, or pornography- Mm-hmm ...
当多巴胺毫不费力地快速到达时，例如安非他明、强效可卡因或色情作品——嗯嗯……
the whole reinforcement loop becomes wired to these short timescales.
整个强化循环都与这些短时间尺度相连。
You want something- Ah ...
你想要一些东西——啊...
you want it now, and you get it.
你现在想要它，你就会得到它。
But over time, you get less and less of the dopamine peak- Mm-hmm ...
但随着时间的推移，你的多巴胺峰值会越来越少——嗯嗯……
and you get more of the dopamine trough that occurs.
你会得到更多的多巴胺低谷。
You drop below baseline afterwards.
之后你就会跌破基线。
So all of that is a bunch of neurobiological-ish nerd speak- Mm-hmm ...
所以所有这些都是一群神经生物学的书呆子的言论——嗯嗯……
for absolutely the ready availability of pornography- Mm-hmm ...
绝对可以随时获得色情内容-嗯嗯......
at a few taps on the phone.
只需在手机上轻按几下即可。
Yeah.
是的。
No doubt triggers big dopamine the first time, requires more and more investment in that behavior to get less and less of the dopamine.
毫无疑问，第一次会触发大量的多巴胺，需要越来越多的投资来获得越来越少的多巴胺。
You never get back to the initial value, and you're driven further and further down the pathway of addiction.
你永远不会回到最初的价值，你会在成瘾的道路上越走越远。
And there's the loss of all the learning- Right.
并且所有的学习都会丢失——对。
Right ...
对...
that the brain has evolved to learn how to evoke dopamine from, I don't want to say just mate pursuit, but it's courtship and eventually sex.
大脑已经进化到学习如何唤起多巴胺，我不想说只是追求配偶，而是求爱和最终的性行为。
Yeah.
是的。
And we know that after ejaculation, after orgasm, there's a dramatic decrease in dopamine- Mm ...
我们知道，射精后、性高潮后，多巴胺会急剧减少——嗯……
and a huge increase in prolactin.
以及催乳素的大幅增加。
What does that do?
那有什么作用？
Prolactin and dopamine are essentially antagonistic to one another.
催乳素和多巴胺本质上是相互拮抗的。
Oh.
哦。
It creates states of quiescence, calm.
它创造了宁静、平静的状态。
It's thought to facilitate pair bonding by keeping- Mm-hmm.
人们认为，通过保持——嗯——嗯，可以促进结对关系。
Mm-hmm ...
嗯嗯……
mates near one another- Yeah ...
彼此靠近的伙伴-是的...
smelling one another, sharing pheromones.
互相闻气味，共享信息素。
Wow.
哇。
In fact, there's something called the Coolidge effect we could talk about.
事实上，我们可以讨论一种叫做柯立芝效应的东西。
The sort of classic Coolidge effect are these effects that have to do with the inverse relationship between dopamine and prolactin.
典型的柯立芝效应是与多巴胺和催乳素之间的反比关系有关的效应。
But with pornography, assuming that boys are masturbating to the pornography- Oh, yeah ...
但是对于色情内容，假设男孩对色情内容自慰——哦，是的......
and they are doing that to the point of ejaculation- Mm-hmm ...
他们这样做到了射精的地步——嗯嗯……
then they're getting this kind of quiescence of the system.
然后他们就会得到这种系统的静止状态。
They're feeling lethargic, relaxed.
他们感觉昏昏欲睡、放松。
Maybe depending on their age or their motivation, they're doing it again and again.
也许根据他们的年龄或动机，他们会一次又一次地这样做。
But neither the dopamine nor the prolactin are being devoted to anything about courtship and pursuit, nor is it, in the case of prolactin, related to anything related to pair bonding.
但多巴胺和催乳素都没有专门用于求爱和追求，就催乳素而言，它也与任何与伴侣关系相关的事情无关。
They're just sitting there with their computer in their room.
他们只是坐在房间里，电脑就在他们的房间里。
Yeah.
是的。
And of course, this occurred with pornography, as you mentioned before, classic pornography.
当然，这发生在色情作品中，正如你之前提到的，经典色情作品。
But when I was growing up, if somebody had a Penthouse or a Playboy magazine, they would often stash it, for whatever reason, behind a business or something- Oh, yeah.
但在我成长的过程中，如果有人拥有阁楼或花花公子杂志，他们经常会出于某种原因将其藏在企业或其他东西后面 - 哦，是的。
Yeah.
是的。
...
...
so no one would get caught with it, and then you'd go there like a library.
这样就不会有人被抓住，然后你就会像图书馆一样去那里。
And it was in places where- Yeah ...
它是在一些地方——是的……
this is getting a little weird, but where people didn't use the pornography there.
这有点奇怪，但人们并没有在那里使用色情内容。
I think they remembered it perhaps.
我想他们也许还记得。
Yeah.
是的。
But they weren't spending a ton of time with it, and they weren't taking-- In fact, there was an unspoken rule.
但他们并没有花很多时间在这上面，也没有接受——事实上，有一条不言而喻的规则。
You didn't take it with you.
你没有把它带走。
And this is most kids' first exposure to pornography, where their dad had a Playboy magazine or something like that.
这是大多数孩子第一次接触色情内容，他们的父亲有一本花花公子杂志或类似的东西。
So I hope I described the landscape of the biology well enough.
所以我希望我对生物学的概况描述得足够好。
But the short answer is absolutely creates major problems in the dopamine reinforcement system.
但简单的答案是绝对会给多巴胺强化系统带来重大问题。
It's training the dopamine reinforcement system for fast reinforcement- Mm.
它正在训练多巴胺强化系统以实现快速强化——嗯。
Fast.
快速地。
Right ...
对...
and diminished reinforcement over time, and none of it translates to the real world.
随着时间的推移，强化效果会逐渐减弱，但这些都不会转化为现实世界。
Yes.
是的。
Yes.
是的。
It's not just the content.
这不仅仅是内容。
So I guess what we're getting at here is it's not just what they're seeing as so extreme, and that's an issue, clearly.
所以我想我们在这里得到的不仅仅是他们所看到的如此极端，而且这显然是一个问题。
It's also the whole process takes minutes.
整个过程也需要几分钟。
Yeah.
是的。
That's right.
这是正确的。
That's right.
这是正确的。
And it can be repeated over and over- Yeah ...
而且可以一遍又一遍地重复 - 是的......
depending on the refractory period of- Right.
取决于 - 的不应期。
Of a young man ...
一个年轻人的...
as opposed to real-world dating and relationships- Yes ...
与现实世界的约会和关系相反 - 是的......
which takes effort, and it takes learning.
这需要努力，也需要学习。
There's hardly any learning- Yes.
几乎没有任何学习——是的。
That's right.
这是正确的。
That's right ...
没错...
in the use of a drug like methamphetamine or cocaine- Yeah ...
使用甲基苯丙胺或可卡因等药物 - 是的......
about how your dopamine system works.
关于您的多巴胺系统如何运作。
Yeah.
是的。
Unconscious learning.
无意识的学习。
And there's hardly any, if any, learning about sex and courtship- Mm-hmm ...
而且几乎没有人（如果有的话）学习性和求爱——嗯嗯……
in pornography, and it's also training the dopamine system- Mm-hmm ...
在色情作品中，它也在训练多巴胺系统-嗯-嗯......
the whole motivational system around sex, to be observational as opposed to participatory.
围绕性的整个激励系统是观察性的，而不是参与性的。
Mm.
毫米。
Right.
正确的。
Right.
正确的。
And I hear a lot because I'm in the wellness health space- Yeah ...
我听到很多，因为我在健康领域 - 是的......
and I'm a man.
我是一个男人。
Guys reach out by direct message, "Hey, listen." They'll reach out that they're having real issues with erectile dysfunction- Yes, and they're young ...
人们通过直接消息联系，“嘿，听着。”他们会发现自己确实有勃起功能障碍的问题——是的，而且他们还年轻……
with anxiety.
带着焦虑。
Yes.
是的。
And these things always existed, but there was a kind of a learning, a communication.
这些东西一直存在，但有一种学习、一种交流。
Hopefully some slow your breathing down and communicate and kind of get back to a place where you're more comfortable.
希望有人能放慢你的呼吸并进行交流，并回到你更舒服的地方。
They're not able to translate anything about their experience of sex and pleasure to the real world, and as a consequence, they're retreating into a world where they view, if they're heterosexual, the opposite sex, or if they're homosexual, the same sex ...
他们无法将有关性和快乐的体验转化为现实世界，因此，他们正在退回到一个他们认为的世界，如果他们是异性恋，就是异性，或者如果他们是同性恋，就是同性……
potential partners as these distant foreign objects that they don't understand.
潜在的合作伙伴就像这些他们不理解的遥远的异物。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Right.
对。
Wow, Andrew, thank you.
哇，安德鲁，谢谢你。
That was a really powerful and clear description of what I was trying to say in the book, coming just from the psychological side, which is to turn from a boy into a man, there's a certain amount of toughening and skill-building.
这对我在书中想要表达的内容进行了非常有力而清晰的描述，只是从心理方面来说，那就是从一个男孩变成一个男人，需要一定的磨练和技能培养。
There's skills that have to be developed, and I'm so glad you used the word courtship.
有些技能需要培养，我很高兴你使用了求爱这个词。
I use that word a lot with my students.
我经常对我的学生使用这个词。
I hear almost nobody else using that word.
我几乎没有听到其他人使用这个词。
It's such an important word.
这是一个如此重要的词。
Because we did evolve the ability to pair bond, at least temporarily, and we do have courtship, and it has to start slowly.
因为我们确实进化出了配对的能力，至少是暂时的，而且我们确实有求爱，而且必须慢慢开始。
If you jump into bed and have sex right away, there's no chance of courtship.
如果你立即跳上床并发生性行为，就没有求爱的机会。
That part is over.
那部分就结束了。
And, so as you were talking, I was thinking, and I want the listeners to imagine one 13-year-old boy who really wants sex, would like to have a girlfriend, but he has a laptop, he has a phone, he has Pornhub.
而且，正如你所说，我在想，我希望听众想象一个 13 岁的男孩，他真的想要性，想要一个女朋友，但他有一台笔记本电脑，他有一部手机，他有 Pornhub。
He masturbates two or three times a day.
他每天自慰两到三次。
He'd still like to have a girlfriend, but he's sexually satisfied because he has all this amazing pornography.
他仍然想有一个女朋友，但他在性方面很满足，因为他拥有所有这些令人惊叹的色情内容。
And he does this every day for 10 years till he's 23, let's say.
比如说，他每天都这样做，持续了 10 年，直到 23 岁。
And then we have another boy who maybe he has a Playboy magazine, or maybe he has nothing, maybe just has his imagination.
然后我们还有另一个男孩，他也许有一本花花公子杂志，或者也许他什么都没有，也许只是有他的想象力。
He masturbates occasionally, as boys do, but he doesn't have the hardcore porn.
他偶尔会像男孩一样自慰，但他没有硬核色情片。
He doesn't have the fast dopamine.
他没有快速产生的多巴胺。
And then this second boy, he puts more effort into actually having a girlfriend, and he learns how to talk to girls.
然后第二个男孩，他付出了更多的努力来真正拥有一个女朋友，他学会了如何与女孩交谈。
And he's flirting, and one is interested in him, and then they have their first kiss.
他在调情，一个人对他感兴趣，然后他们就开始了初吻。
And because I'm remembering back when I was a teenager into my 20s, the most beautiful golden days, the most memorable days of my life, it was those days when you have that first kiss and you know, "Oh, this is going to turn into something."
因为我还记得我二十多岁的时候，那是我一生中最美丽的黄金岁月，最难忘的日子，那些日子里，当你第一次接吻时，你知道，“哦，这会变成某种东西。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Everything sparkles after that.
之后一切都闪闪发光。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Yeah, everything sparkles.
是的，一切都闪闪发光。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
But the point is, it's slow, and it's hard work.
但关键是，它很慢，而且很辛苦。
And then when you finally do have sex, it's not like, "Oh, dopamine crash, get out of here." It's as you said, it's like a prolactin rise.
然后当你最终发生性行为时，它不会像“哦，多巴胺崩溃，离开这里。”正如你所说，这就像催乳素升高一样。
You hug, you hold the girl, and at some point, you start thinking about marriage.
你拥抱、抱着那个女孩，在某个时刻，你开始考虑结婚。
You start to think, like, "Is this the one?" Crazy thoughts like that.
你开始想，“就是这个吗？”诸如此类的疯狂想法。
You can't help but think that when you're falling in love.
当你坠入爱河时，你会情不自禁地这样想。
And at NYU, I teach an undergrad course, and I also teach an MBA course.
在纽约大学，我教授本科课程，也教授 MBA 课程。
Now, the MBAs are all on the dating apps.
现在，MBA 们都在约会应用上。
They're in their late 20s.
他们都二十多岁了。
They're all on the dating apps.
他们都在约会应用程序上。
The undergrads, some of them are on dating apps, but they're 19.
本科生，其中一些人在使用约会应用程序，但他们才 19 岁。
They're mostly dating in their circles.
他们大多在自己的圈子里约会。
And for the MBAs, I really have to work with them to see that these dating apps are cutting off courtship in a lot of ways.
对于 MBA 来说，我真的必须与他们合作，才能看到这些约会应用程序在很多方面阻碍了求爱。
Yes, you're texting, but it's not the same.
是的，你在发短信，但它不一样。
So, I'm so glad you explained a lot about that.
所以，我很高兴你对此做了很多解释。
One is the fast.
一是快。
It's the fast satisfaction that prevents you from learning, where slow, hard work towards a biological goal, like sex or dating or marriage or love, is what builds you up into a competent man.
快速的满足感会阻碍你学习，而缓慢而努力地实现生理目标，比如性、约会、婚姻或爱情，才能让你成为一个有能力的男人。
Who would want to hire or who would want to date, let's put it that way.
谁想要雇用或谁想要约会，让我们这样说吧。
Who would want to date the kid who'd been masturbating three times a day to porn since he was 13?
谁会愿意和一个从 13 岁起就每天手淫 3 次看色情片的孩子约会呢？
So, yeah.
所以，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, and there's all sorts of things.
是的，还有各种各样的事情。
My father's Argentine, moved to the States in the late '60s, and so I was raised in a fairly traditional home from the perspective of masculine, feminine roles.
我父亲是阿根廷人，在 60 年代末移居美国，所以从男性和女性角色的角度来看，我是在一个相当传统的家庭中长大的。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And there were all these things around chivalry.
所有这些事情都围绕着骑士精神。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I remember going to my first junior high school dance, my dad gave me this whole tutorial about holding the door.
我记得第一次参加初中舞会时，我爸爸给了我整个关于扶门的教程。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's interesting that nowadays, guys are often judged in terms of their latency to respond to text messages.
有趣的是，如今，人们常常根据回复短信的延迟时间来评判男人。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Something I'm terrible at.
有件事我很不擅长。
And it's interesting that that sort of replaced chivalry, like how responsive somebody is.
有趣的是，这种取代了骑士精神，比如某人的反应如何。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So there's a kind of a bleeding forward.
所以有一种向前流血的感觉。
As long as we're just being very open about the past, present, and perhaps future of this stuff.
只要我们对这些东西的过去、现在，也许还有未来持非常开放的态度。
I remember growing up and hearing stories.
我记得我是听故事长大的。
This wasn't how my childhood went, but I remember my dad telling me, in Argentina, the young boys, when they would hit puberty, used to be taken to prostitutes-
我的童年并不是这样度过的，但我记得我父亲告诉我，在阿根廷，小男孩在进入青春期时，常常被带到妓院——
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
so they would learn how to have sex.
这样他们就会学习如何做爱。
That wasn't that long ago.
那并不是很久以前的事了。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Wow.
哇。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That wasn't my childhood, and I remember thinking, like, "Is this what's going to happen next?" But he was explaining, that's kind of how it went.
那不是我的童年，我记得我当时想，“这就是接下来会发生的事情吗？”但他正在解释，事情就是这样的。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That doesn't tend to happen anymore, as I understand.
据我了解，这种情况不会再发生了。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
I haven't heard of it happening.
我还没有听说有这样的事情发生。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But in terms of learning courtship, learning chivalry-
但就学习求爱、学习侠义而言——
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
learning who pays.
学习谁付钱。
And a lot of that's changed with the changing milieu of-
随着环境的变化，很多事情都发生了变化——
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
sex and gender dynamics.
性和性别动态。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But it's all iterative.
但这都是迭代的。
It's slow and iterative.
它是缓慢且迭代的。
And everything about online use, as you mentioned, is it's fast.
正如您提到的，有关在线使用的一切都非常快。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You can find anything with a keyword search.
您可以通过关键字搜索找到任何内容。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Right.
对。
No work.
没有工作。
That's right.
这是正确的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
The technology makes everything easier.
技术让一切变得更容易。
And if we end up talking about AI at all, which every conversation goes through at some point, that's my big fear, that AI makes everything easy.
如果我们最终谈论人工智能（每次对话都会在某个时刻经历），那就是我最大的恐惧，人工智能会让一切变得简单。
Now, that's great for us adults when we have 50 things we want to do.
现在，当我们有 50 件想做的事情时，这对我们成年人来说是件好事。
If I can give 30 of them to AI, that would be great.
如果我能把其中 30 个交给 AI，那就太好了。
But how many servants do I want my...
但我想要多少仆人……
My son is now 17.
我儿子现在17岁了。
When he was 10, 11, 12, how many servants would I want him to have to take care of his needs?
当他 10、11、12 岁时，我希望他有多少仆人来照顾他的需要？
Probably zero.
可能为零。
Zero is probably the best number.
零可能是最好的数字。
But with porn for the sexual drive, with multiplayer video games for sports or competition, that's right, our kids are not learning or developing, and this is why.
但是，由于色情片是为了性欲，通过多人视频游戏是为了体育或竞赛，这是正确的，我们的孩子没有学习或发展，这就是原因。
I work in a business school.
我在一所商学院工作。
I talk to a lot of people in the corporate world, and I always ask them, "How's it going with your Gen Z employees?" I've never heard a good word.
我和企业界的很多人交谈过，我总是问他们：“你们的 Z 世代员工怎么样？”我从来没有听过一句好话。
I've never heard, "Oh, they're great." There are often people just surprised at how they don't take initiative.
我从来没有听过“哦，他们太棒了”。人们常常对自己不采取主动行动感到惊讶。
If something is broken, they don't fix it.
如果有什么东西坏了，他们不会修复它。
They want to be told what to do.
他们希望被告知该做什么。
They don't have the confidence.
他们没有这个信心。
They're very anxious.
他们非常着急。
So, I'm not ragging on Gen Z.
所以，我并不是在攻击 Z 世代。
I'm saying we blocked their development.
我是说我们阻止了他们的发展。
We prevented them from having a thousand, millions of experiences of social interaction, of challenge, of failure, of fear, of thrill.
我们阻止他们获得一千、数以百万计的社交互动、挑战、失败、恐惧和兴奋的体验。
And then when they reach their early 20s and they're employed employers find there's something lacking.
当他们二十岁出头并受雇时，雇主发现他们缺少了一些东西。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So it sounds to me like boys on smartphones, so from this 2010 period forward, are getting this kind of hyper-stereotypical male experience.
所以在我看来，这就像使用智能手机的男孩一样，因此从 2010 年开始，他们正在获得这种超刻板的男性体验。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
First-person shooter games, pornography.
第一人称射击游戏、色情内容。
Girls are getting this hyper-stereotypical female-
女孩们正在接受这种超刻板的女性——
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Exactly
正是如此
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
experience.
经验。
Relational.
关系型。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Highly relational.
高度相关。
But there are certain dynamics that are missing, or certain components that are missing.
但缺少某些动力，或缺少某些组件。
Yesterday, I heard you mention something very interesting to me, which is that in both groups, it seems conflict and any kind of friction is not being resolved among the participants.
昨天，我听到你提到了一件令我非常感兴趣的事情，那就是在两个群体中，参与者之间似乎存在冲突和任何形式的摩擦都没有得到解决。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But there's this sort of looking outward for some rule or policy-
但有一种向外寻找某种规则或政策的方式——
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
law or oversight to come in and intervene.
法律或监督介入并干预。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Could you talk a little bit about this?
您能谈谈这个吗？
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This relates in an interesting way to cancel culture.
这以一种有趣的方式与取消文化相关。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Yeah, that's right.
是的，没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I would love to learn more about this.
我很想了解更多相关信息。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Sure.
当然。
So aggression is a part of human nature, as is cooperation, and they kind of have to go together.
因此，攻击性是人性的一部分，合作也是如此，而且它们必须同时存在。
To make it in this world, you have to be able to play politics, you have to have friends and allies, you have to stand up for yourself, you have to push back sometimes, but you have to learn to bury the hatchet.
要想在这个世界上取得成功，你必须能够玩弄政治，你必须有朋友和盟友，你必须为自己挺身而出，有时你必须反击，但你必须学会和解。
And if you grew up with siblings, you're fighting every day, and you're cooperating every day.
如果你和兄弟姐妹一起长大，你们每天都在争吵，也每天都在合作。
It's a very important practice.
这是一个非常重要的实践。
And if you're playing sports outside with a bunch of kids in the neighborhood, you're making the rules every day, and then part of what's important when kids are playing is the infractions.
如果你和附近的一群孩子在外面做运动，你每天都会制定规则，然后孩子们玩耍时最重要的部分就是违规行为。
The play stops, people come together, "That was out of bounds." "No, it wasn't." "You pushed me." "No, I didn't." And then everybody gets practice playing judge and jury, because everyone wants the game to go on, so they're very motivated to work it out.
比赛停止了，人们聚集在一起，“那是越界了。” “不，不是的。” “你推了我。” “不，我没有。”然后每个人都练习扮演法官和陪审团，因为每个人都希望比赛继续进行，所以他们非常有动力去解决这个问题。
You have to accept the judgment.
你必须接受这个判断。
What are you going to do?
你会怎样做？
Storm off and go home to protest?
暴走并回家抗议？
Then you look like a loser, and you don't get to play anymore.
然后你看起来就像一个失败者，你不能再玩了。
So natural play with no adult forces the kids to learn social skills that are essential for democracy.
因此，没有成人的自然玩耍迫使孩子们学习对民主至关重要的社交技能。
How do we make rules together, just us?
我们如何共同制定规则，只有我们自己？
How do we decide how we're going to govern ourselves?
我们如何决定如何管理自己？
What do we do when it looks like someone violated a rule?
当有人看起来违反规则时我们该怎么办？
Well, we're not just going to kill them.
好吧，我们不只是要杀死他们。
We're not going to expel them.
我们不会驱逐他们。
We have to have a way of going on with the play.
我们必须有办法继续比赛。
So these are such crucial skills for social development for boys and for girls, and kids always learn to work that out.
因此，这些对于男孩和女孩的社会发展来说都是至关重要的技能，孩子们总是要学会解决这些问题。
But what happens when the boys are growing up on video games, there are no disputes.
但当男孩们在电子游戏中长大时会发生什么，就没有争议了。
There can't be a dispute because the game, the software basically manages everything.
不能有争议，因为游戏、软件基本上管理着一切。
There's no out of bounds or anything.
没有任何越界或任何东西。
So the play is missing a lot of the key skills.
所以这部剧缺失了很多关键技能。
Now, how are conflicts resolved?
现在，冲突如何解决？
Well, on social media, instead of a conflict that two girls might have had, just the two of them, or with a group of four, which could get worked out very quickly, it's somebody posts something indirect, maybe it's an indirect criticism, and someone takes it in a way, maybe it was intended that way, maybe it wasn't.
好吧，在社交媒体上，不是两个女孩可能发生的冲突，只有她们两个，或者四个人可能很快就解决了，而是有人发布了一些间接的东西，也许这是间接的批评，有人以某种方式接受它，也许是故意的，也许不是。
But before you know it, it's accelerated.
但在你意识到之前，它已经加速了。
People are taking sides.
人们正在选边站。
It could blow up.
它可能会爆炸。
You don't know how big it could get.
你不知道它能变得多大。
It could be the whole school now gets drawn in.
现在可能整个学校都被吸引了。
This is terrifying.
这太可怕了。
So a really important idea about play is what's called low stakes mistakes.
因此，关于游戏的一个非常重要的想法就是所谓的低风险错误。
So if you make a mistake while playing soccer with your friends, no big deal.
因此，如果您在与朋友踢足球时犯了错误，也没什么大不了的。
It's a foul, redo, whatever it is.
这是犯规，重做，无论是什么。
But if you make a mistake on social media, it could blow up to the point where you are now a laughing stock.
但如果你在社交媒体上犯了一个错误，它可能会爆炸到让你成为笑柄的地步。
And when a kid, especially in middle school, when a kid is a laughing stock, when everyone's laughing at them, that is likely to trigger thoughts even of suicide.
当一个孩子，尤其是在中学时，当一个孩子成为笑柄时，当每个人都在嘲笑他们时，这可能会引发甚至自杀的想法。
Shame makes us want to disappear.
羞耻感让我们想要消失。
And our kids need to be immersed in small groups, small groups of other kids that are stable, somewhat stable over years.
我们的孩子需要沉浸在小团体中，其他孩子组成的小团体是稳定的，多年来有些稳定。
That's the healthiest environment.
这才是最健康的环境。
But instead, we're mixing them in with potentially gigantic groups, including strangers, and people who are not engaging their normal empathy skills but are being performative, judgmental, judging in order to be liked by others.
但相反，我们将他们与潜在的庞大群体混在一起，包括陌生人，以及那些没有发挥正常同理心技能，而是通过表现、评判、评判来获得他人喜欢的人。
So it's just an inhumane world in which to raise kids.
所以这只是一个不人道的养育孩子的世界。
And this is part of my point about the Great Rewiring.
这是我关于“伟大的重新布线”的观点的一部分。
In 2010, American kids still had a recognizably human childhood with a lot of time together with other friends.
2010年，美国孩子们仍然拥有明显的人类童年，有很多时间与其他朋友在一起。
But that plunges in the 2010s to the point where now childhood is largely happening alone on a screen.
但到了 2010 年代，这一数字急剧下降，现在童年大部分都在屏幕上独自发生。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd like to take a brief break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, LMNT.
我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商之一 LMNT。
LMNT is an electrolyte drink that has everything you need.
LMNT 是一种电解质饮料，拥有您所需的一切。
That means the electrolytes sodium, magnesium, and potassium in the correct amounts and ratios, and nothing you don't, which means no sugar.
这意味着电解质的钠、镁和钾的含量和比例正确，没有任何不合适的东西，这意味着没有糖。
Now, I and others on this podcast have talked about the critical importance of hydration for proper brain and body functioning.
现在，我和这个播客中的其他人讨论了水合作用对于大脑和身体正常功能的至关重要性。
Even a slight degree of dehydration can diminish cognitive and physical performance.
即使是轻微程度的脱水也会降低认知和身体表现。
It's also important that you get adequate electrolytes.
获得充足的电解质也很重要。
The electrolytes, sodium, magnesium, and potassium, are critical for the functioning of all the cells in your body, especially your neurons, your nerve cells.
电解质（钠、镁和钾）对于体内所有细胞（尤其是神经元）的功能至关重要。
Drinking LMNT dissolved in water makes it very easy to ensure that you're getting adequate hydration and adequate electrolytes.
饮用溶解在水中的 LMNT 可以很容易地确保您获得足够的水分和电解质。
To make sure I'm getting proper amounts of hydration and electrolytes, I dissolve one packet of LMNT in about 16 to 32 ounces of water when I wake up in the morning, and I drink that basically first thing in the morning.
为了确保我获得适量的水合作用和电解质，当我早上醒来时，我将一包 LMNT 溶解在大约 16 至 32 盎司的水中，并且我基本上早上第一件事就是喝它。
I'll also drink LMNT dissolved in water during any kind of physical exercise I'm doing, especially on hot days when I'm sweating a lot, losing water and electrolytes.
我还会在进行任何体育锻炼时饮用溶解在水中的 LMNT，尤其是在炎热的日子里，当我大量出汗、失去水分和电解质时。
They have a bunch of different great-tasting flavors of LMNT.
他们有多种不同口味的 LMNT。
My favorite is the watermelon, although I confess I also like the raspberry and the citrus.
我最喜欢的是西瓜，尽管我承认我也喜欢覆盆子和柑橘。
Basically, I like all the flavors.
基本上所有的口味我都喜欢。
And LMNT has also just released a new line of canned sparkling LMNT.
LMNT 还刚刚推出了新系列的罐装起泡 LMNT。
So these aren't the packets you dissolve in water.
所以这些不是溶解在水中的小包。
These are cans of LMNT that you crack open like any other canned drink, like a soda, but you're getting your hydration and your electrolytes with no sugar.
这些是 LMNT 罐头，您可以像其他罐装饮料（例如苏打水）一样打开它们，但您会得到水分和电解质，但不含糖。
If you'd like to try LMNT, you can go to drinkLMNT, spelled L-M-N-T, .com/huberman to claim a free LMNT sample pack with the purchase of any LMNT drink mix.
如果您想尝试 LMNT，您可以前往 DrinkLMNT（拼写为 L-M-N-T，.com/huberman），购买任何 LMNT 混合饮料即可领取免费 LMNT 样品包。
Again, that's drinkLMNT.com/huberman to claim a free sample pack.
再次强调，请通过 DrinkLMNT.com/huberman 索取免费样品包。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
I'll never forget in middle school being at some assembly and
我永远不会忘记在中学时参加一些集会
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
A kid had got down on all fours behind me, and someone pushed me.
一个孩子趴在我身后，有人推了我。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
Remember that track-
还记得那首曲目——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That game.
那个游戏。
I stood up, and Kevin Gasman was just sitting there, just cackling with his face right in front of me.
我站起来，凯文·加斯曼就坐在那里，脸就在我面前咯咯笑。
So I hit him.
于是我就打了他。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Uh-huh.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It turns out it wasn't Kevin that did it.
事实证明这不是凯文干的。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Uh-huh.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And he hit me back, and it was a disaster.
然后他还击了我，这是一场灾难。
And I don't remember how it panned out, but we ended up being friends.
我不记得结果如何，但我们最终成为了朋友。
So it was kind of how things got worked out.
事情就是这样解决的。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Well, that's right.
嗯，没错。
Conflict-
冲突-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You know
你知道
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
...
...
and cooperation, you need the two together.
而合作，则需要两者齐心协力。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Incredibly embarrassing, both for getting pushed over-
令人难以置信的尴尬，两人都被推倒了——
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and for hitting the wrong kid.
以及打错了孩子。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
You made a mistake, and you-
你犯了一个错误，而你——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But credit for hitting somebody because that's how boys work things out.
但打人是值得赞扬的，因为这就是男孩解决问题的方式。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm not suggesting people do this, not suggesting violence.
我并不是建议人们这样做，也不是建议人们采取暴力。
And then both of us feeling silly, and then ultimately-
然后我们俩都觉得自己很傻，最后——
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
well, I don't know.
好吧，我不知道。
I made it to the eighth grade somehow, right?
我不知怎的就到了八年级，对吗？
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And the hierarchy among, I mostly had male friends, but the hierarchy was something that was very dynamic.
其中的等级制度，我主要有男性朋友，但等级制度是非常动态的。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I have a good friend who was a CO, a commanding officer in one of the East Coast SEAL team squadrons, Tier 1 SEAL team squadrons.
我有一个好朋友，他是东海岸海豹突击队的一个中队（一级海豹突击队中队）的指挥官。
He said the reason they're so effective-
他说他们如此有效的原因是——
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in those groups is because they embrace dynamic subordination, where people take over as different skill sets are required.
在这些群体中，是因为他们接受动态的从属关系，人们根据需要不同的技能来接管。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And they are relentlessly hard on each other.
他们对彼此无情地严厉。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This is something they are relentlessly hard.
这是他们不懈努力的事情。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
At the level of humor, but also, because it's so high risk and high consequence, they're just extremely hard on one another.
在幽默的层面上，而且，因为它的风险和后果是如此之高，所以他们对彼此都非常严厉。
But it's all about this dynamic subordination.
但这都是关于这种动态的从属关系。
That sure, there are leaders by virtue of who's appointed leader and certain amount of authority, but there's this constant dynamic subordination, and it exists in every group of males I've ever been a part of.
当然，领导者的存在取决于谁被任命为领导者和一定的权威，但这种持续不断的动态从属关系存在于我加入过的每一个男性群体中。
And it's wonderful and very reassuring to me because it means that you both get to potentially step up, but you also get to rest and trust somebody else's skills.
这对我来说很棒而且非常令人放心，因为这意味着你们都有可能进步，但你们也可以休息并相信别人的技能。
I don't know how it operates with girls.
不知道对女孩子来说怎么样。
I've only been born with a Y chromosome.
我出生时只有 Y 染色体。
This is all I know.
这就是我所知道的一切。
But, I imagine it exists there, too, but in different ways.
但是，我想它也存在那里，但以不同的方式。
So if online everything is fear-based, where one is fearing a dog pile, like if you say the wrong thing, you're going to get dog piled, you kind of wonder why anyone participates at all.
因此，如果网上的一切都是基于恐惧的，人们害怕狗堆，就像如果你说错了话，你就会被狗堆起来，你有点想知道为什么有人参与。
But it seems like people are in there.
但里面好像有人。
Are they in there and timid, or is boldness rewarded?
他们是在那里胆怯，还是勇敢得到了回报？
Is it only boldness of, I guess they call it slamming down, what do they call dunking on other people?
难道只是大胆的，我猜他们称之为“猛击”，他们所谓的“向别人扣篮”？
And here as I'm describing kids, I want to acknowledge if you look on Twitter, X we now call it, in the academic, tech, and finance community in particular, this is how the men behave.
当我在这里描述孩子时，我想承认，如果你看看 Twitter，我们现在称之为 X，特别是在学术、科技和金融界，这就是男人的行为方式。
This is how the women behave.
这就是女人的行为方式。
But it's especially apparent that the adults are kind of acting like kids, and the kids are kind of acting like adults.
但尤其明显的是，成年人的行为有点像孩子，孩子的行为也有点像成年人。
So what's going on?
那么到底是怎么回事呢？
Are we drawn into this as well as adults, and are we modeling this, or is this just social media pulling on these strings of deep evolutionarily conserved wiring?
我们是否和成年人一样被这个问题所吸引，我们是否对此进行了建模，或者这只是社交媒体拉动了这些深层进化保守的线路？
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Well, so first, let's not be too sort of monochromatic about social media.
好吧，首先，我们不要对社交媒体过于单一。
There is a lot of humor.
有很多幽默感。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
There's a lot of jokes.
有很多笑话。
There are a lot of funny cartoons-
还有很多搞笑的漫画——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, and learning
是的，还有学习
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
...
...
and videos.
和视频。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
And learning.
和学习。
So there is-
所以有——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
...
...
good stuff mixed in, and even the bad stuff is entertaining in the way that looking at a car crash or a dead body is entertaining people.
好东西混在一起，甚至坏东西也很有趣，就像看车祸或尸体很有趣一样。
It draws the eye.
它吸引眼球。
So young people are very interested, and us adults, too, are very interested.
所以年轻人很感兴趣，我们成年人也很感兴趣。
It draws us in.
它吸引着我们。
But then, yes, it certainly changes our behavior.
但是，是的，它确实改变了我们的行为。
Now, actually, there's some research on trolls.
现在，实际上，有一些关于巨魔的研究。
Is it that whenever you go on Twitter, you become a jerk?
是不是只要你上推特，你就会变成一个混蛋？
And actually, no, it seems more that what happens is there's a small number of men, always men, who have a personality disorder.
事实上，不，发生的事情似乎更多的是有一小部分男性，总是男性，患有人格障碍。
They like to be jerks.
他们喜欢当混蛋。
They like to get a reaction from people.
他们喜欢得到人们的反应。
They get blocked a lot.
他们经常被封锁。
They get kicked off platforms.
他们被踢出平台。
And this small number, in a real community, probably when you were growing up, there were one or two kids who were like this, and they got in trouble a lot, and they probably ended up dead or in jail.
而这个数字很小，在一个真实的社区中，可能在你成长的过程中，有一两个孩子是这样的，他们遇到了很多麻烦，他们可能最终死了或者进了监狱。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
But online, suppose it's 1% of men are psychopaths, so suppose it's this 2% of men, let's say, who are jerks like this.
但在网上，假设有 1% 的男性是精神病患者，那么假设有 2% 的男性是这样的混蛋。
Well, online, that's who we all see.
嗯，在网上，我们都看到了这样的人。
So in part, it's that the online world super empowers extremists and jerks.
从某种程度上来说，网络世界超级助长了极端分子和混蛋的力量。
It's also that in the online world, everyone is feeling performative.
而且在网络世界中，每个人都感觉自己在表演。
Even if you're making a joke, you have to think three steps ahead.
即使你是在开玩笑，你也必须提前三步思考。
How will it be misinterpreted?
怎么会被误解呢？
So a metaphor that I have in my head whenever I'm online is it's really just like being on thin ice.
因此，每当我上网时，我脑海中都会浮现出一个比喻：这真的就像如履薄冰。
You can have fun on thin ice.
你可以如履薄冰地享受乐趣。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
It's not all bad.
这并不全是坏事。
But you're kind of always aware that you're in danger.
但你总是意识到自己处于危险之中。
Whereas when you're hanging out with your buddies, your good friends, you feel totally safe.
而当你和你的好友、好朋友一起出去玩时，你会感到完全安全。
And if you accidentally insult one of them, it's like, "Oh, sorry.
如果你不小心侮辱了他们中的一个人，就像是，“哦，对不起。
Yep, you're right.
是的，你是对的。
I'm sorry."
对不起。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And as followership increases, the ice gets thinner.
随着追随者的增加，冰层会变得越来越薄。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Yeah, that's right.
是的，没错。
You're right.
你说得对。
The higher they go, the harder they fall, and then a lot of people want to see your fall.
爬得越高，摔得越惨，然后很多人就想看你摔倒。
Just want to make one point.
只是想说明一点。
That was an interesting concept.
这是一个有趣的概念。
There was something in subordination.
有些东西处于从属地位。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Dynamic subordination.
动态从属。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Dynamic subordination.
动态从属。
Right.
正确的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Kind of like a flock of birds, is how it was described to me.
我对它的描述是，有点像一群鸟。
But I always thought in the Tier 1 special operations community that people would spend more years there, advance further and further, and that's true too.
但我一直认为，在一级特种作战社区中，人们会在那里度过更多年，进步越来越远，这也是事实。
But this idea that it's just understood that the hierarchy evolves in real time.
但这种想法认为，层次结构是实时演变的。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And the more people embrace that-
越来越多的人接受这一点——
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
the better performing the group is as a pack.
团队整体表现越好。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Yeah.
是的。
Now, the word hierarchy certainly takes on a bad name, especially like in our academic circles.
现在，“等级制度”这个词确实名声不好，尤其是在我们的学术界。
Hierarchy is bad, and power is bad, and subordination, all these things are bad.
等级制度是不好的，权力是不好的，从属地位是不好的，所有这些都是不好的。
Power, inequality.
权力，不平等。
But I think part of what's going on there-- So I teach in a business school, and there's a huge amount of writing on leadership.
但我认为部分原因是——所以我在一所商学院任教，那里有大量关于领导力的著作。
And I haven't read much of it, but a key idea that I got, I'm trying to remember the author, is that the key puzzle is not why people want to be leaders, it's why do they want to be followers?
我没有读过太多内容，但我得到的一个关键想法是，我试图记住作者，关键的难题不是人们为什么想成为领导者，而是他们为什么想成为追随者？
We really need to study followership.
我们确实需要研究追随力。
And so people are willing to follow because part of our amazing human ability is to work together in groups to overcome obstacles.
因此人们愿意追随，因为我们令人惊叹的人类能力的一部分就是通过团队合作来克服障碍。
We don't have sharp teeth.
我们没有锋利的牙齿。
Well, we're fast in long distance, but not in sprints.
好吧，我们在长距离上很快，但在短跑上却不是。
But we're able to work together.
但我们能够一起工作。
And when we face a common threat, we very willingly cede leadership to a leader.
当我们面临共同的威胁时，我们非常愿意将领导权让给领导者。
But we have to trust him, and if the leader shows that he's a narcissist, that he's putting himself first, that he's benefiting at our expense, we don't trust him.
但我们必须信任他，如果领导者表现出他是一个自恋者，他把自己放在第一位，他以牺牲我们的利益为代价，我们就不信任他。
So what you need to do, and I think this is more clear, males are more hierarchical.
所以你需要做什么，我认为这更清楚，男性更有等级观念。
This is true in chimpanzees as well.
对于黑猩猩来说也是如此。
Males take to hierarchy more readily.
男性更容易接受等级制度。
Males benefit from having practice.
男性从练习中受益。
I don't think of it as dominance and submission.
我不认为这是统治和服从。
I think what you said is actually more effective.
我觉得你说的其实更有效。
It's like they need practice being the leader of this project and then being a follower because you grant, like, "Yeah, you lead us on this.
就像他们需要练习成为这个项目的领导者，然后成为追随者，因为你会同意，比如，“是的，你在这方面领导我们。
You take the lead on this." And then something else will reverse.
你在这件事上带头。”然后其他事情就会逆转。
And if you have a young man who has a lot of that experience, that's going to be a young man that you will want to employ when he's in his mid-20s.
如果你有一个拥有丰富经验的年轻人，那么当他 20 多岁时你就会想要雇用他。
Whereas one who never had that, it's just going to be much more difficult to work with in a business setting.
而一个从未经历过这种情况的人，在商业环境中合作就会变得更加困难。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
The groups of boys I grew up with and men that I've worked with and been friends with, it's always been understood, like, this guy's really terrific for finding stuff, and this guy's great with vehicles, and this guy's great with girls, and this guy's great-- That people have different skill sets-
和我一起长大的一群男孩，以及和我一起工作、成为朋友的男人们，一直以来都被理解为，这个家伙非常擅长寻找东西，这个家伙很擅长车辆，这个家伙很擅长和女孩相处，这个家伙很棒——人们有不同的技能——
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and that the group together can really mesh.
并且团队能够真正融为一体。
But there isn't an attempt to be something that you're not.
但我们不会试图成为你不是的人。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And you quickly find out who you are by who you're not, and you find your unique skill set.
你很快就会通过你不是谁而发现你是谁，并找到你独特的技能。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And you evolve in that way by not trying to be everything to everybody.
你会以这种方式进化，而不是试图成为每个人的一切。
Whereas I noticed with my sister and her groups of friends, it's changed over time, of course, but that there tended to be one girl that was really dominant in the play session, like the whole time.
我注意到我姐姐和她的一群朋友，当然，随着时间的推移，情况发生了变化，但往往有一个女孩在游戏过程中真正占主导地位，就像整个过程一样。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The bossy one.
霸道的那个。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
You're right.
你是对的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And even though some stories, kids books that mainly feature boys have that, I don't recall that being such a big part of my reading experience or childhood experience.
尽管有些故事、主要以男孩为主角的儿童读物有这样的内容，但我不记得这是我的阅读经历或童年经历的重要组成部分。
Like in the Encyclopedia Brown books, there was the mean kid and the-
就像在《布朗百科全书》中一样，有一个卑鄙的孩子和——
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
but people would slot in where they were most adept.
但人们会安排在他们最擅长的地方。
So it was sort of like natural tendencies to excel were complementary, and I don't know what it is for girls, but online it seems, all of that's erased.
所以这有点像出类拔萃的自然倾向是互补的，我不知道这对女孩来说是什么，但在网上看来，所有这些都被抹去了。
So you've got these social dynamics that are very heightened, being played out on social media with girls.
因此，这些社交动态非常强烈，在社交媒体上与女孩一起上演。
But boys and men are on there as well, and most of what's on social media is social, it's relational.
但男孩和男人也在那里，社交媒体上的大部分内容都是社交的，都是关系性的。
So are boys and men being drawn more toward those sorts of interactions, and how well are they navigating those interactions?
那么，男孩和男人是否更容易被此类互动所吸引？他们在这些互动中的驾驭能力如何？
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is it common for boys to make big mistakes online-
男生在网上犯大错误是不是很常见——
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and then be shunned as a consequence?
然后因此而被回避？
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or is this more common in-
或者这更常见于-
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
females?
女性？
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
No, that's a good question.
不，这是个好问题。
Life online is performative.
网上生活是表演性的。
For girls, a much bigger element of the performance is perfectionism about the image.
对于女孩来说，表演的一个更大的因素是对形象的完美主义。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
So girls spend a lot more time choosing a photograph, editing a photograph, making sure everything's perfect.
因此，女孩们会花更多的时间选择照片、编辑照片，以确保一切都很完美。
Whereas guys, I literally don't notice if my socks don't match.
而伙计们，我真的没有注意到我的袜子是否不匹配。
My wife has to tell me, "Your socks don't match." Guys just don't notice those things as much.
我妻子不得不告诉我：“你的袜子不合适。”人们只是不太注意到这些事情。
So-
所以——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You're a professor after all.
毕竟你是教授。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Yeah, that's my professor, I suppose.
是的，我想那是我的教授。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, we are.
是的，我们是。
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
But my point is that life online, it does affect all kids.
但我的观点是，网络生活确实影响到所有孩子。
So fear of missing out is something that affects everybody.
因此，害怕错过是影响每个人的事情。
On Snapchat, you see all your friends are over there, and you didn't even know that there was something going on.
在 Snapchat 上，你看到你所有的朋友都在那里，你甚至不知道发生了什么事。
So again, boys and girls, they'll have similar insecurities.
再说一遍，男孩和女孩，他们都会有类似的不安全感。
It's more a question of degree.
这更多的是一个程度的问题。
So the perfectionism, the playing out the social dynamics to three steps, like girls are playing three-dimensional chess about social relationships.
因此，完美主义将社会动态分为三个步骤，就像女孩们在下关于社会关系的三维国际象棋一样。
"Well, but why did he say that if he also wanted this, when he knows that she knows that?" And the guy's like, "What?
“好吧，但是如果他也想要这个，为什么他要这么说，而且他知道她知道这一点呢？”那家伙就像，“什么？
I don't even know what you're saying."
我根本不知道你在说什么。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
They're barely playing checkers.
他们几乎不玩跳棋。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
That's right.
没错。
And again, it's the organizing effects of prenatal hormones.
再说一次，这是产前激素的组织作用。
This is not culturally taught.
这不是文化所教导的。
This is what kids enjoy doing based on, I believe, and Simon Baron-Cohen, I believe, believes, is the prenatal organizing effects of hormones on the developing brain.
我相信，这就是孩子们喜欢做的事情，我相信西蒙·拜伦-科恩也相信，这是荷尔蒙对发育中的大脑的产前组织作用。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But on YouTube, where it's my understanding primarily male-
但在 YouTube 上，据我了解主要是男性——
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
there's a lot of clap back type comments.
有很多拍手式的评论。
I know this because I have a YouTube channel.
我知道这一点是因为我有一个 YouTube 频道。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
I've watched.
我看过。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And in the old days, it seems it wasn't that long ago, when Rogan had full-length episodes on YouTube, then he didn't, now he does again.
在过去，似乎就在不久之前，当 Rogan 在 YouTube 上发布了完整的剧集时，他就没有了，现在他又做了。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The jokes, the comment section on YouTube were like their own show.
YouTube 上的笑话和评论部分就像他们自己的节目。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It was outrageous.
这太令人愤慨了。
It was so good.
真是太好了。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And some of that's coming back now that he's-
现在他的一些感觉又回来了——
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Was it men showing off their cleverness?
难道是男人们在炫耀自己的聪明才智吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
For instance, you might be familiar with Jocko Willink, the right, if you had to draw a Navy SEAL, you'd draw Jocko.
例如，你可能熟悉乔科·威林克（Jocko Willink），对吧，如果你必须画海豹突击队，你会画乔科。
The guy looks like modern-day General Patton, right?
这家伙看起来像现代的巴顿将军，对吧？
And there's this whole category of jokes based on Jocko, who I think actually has risen to prominence in the online culture because he's sort of like the football coach that most young males never had.
还有一整类以乔科为基础的笑话，我认为他实际上已经在网络文化中崭露头角，因为他有点像大多数年轻男性从未拥有过的足球教练。
He's the guy that's going to tell you what to do, when to do it, and do it even though you don't want to, and just do it.
他会告诉你该做什么、什么时候做，即使你不想做，他也会做，然后就去做。
And you trust him.
而你信任他。
He's a very trustworthy guy, as it were, and he's a warrior, and he has all the credentials, et cetera.
可以说，他是一个非常值得信赖的人，他是一名战士，他拥有所有的资格，等等。
But there's this whole category of jokes like, when Jocko was born, the doctor looked at his mother and said, "It's a man." Or when Jocko left for college, he looked at his father and said, "You're the man of the house now." Jokes like that.
但有一整类笑话，比如乔科出生时，医生看着他的母亲说：“这是一个男人。”或者当乔科去上大学时，他看着他的父亲说：“你现在是家里的男主了。”诸如此类的笑话。
There are tons and tons of these, right?
这样的东西有很多很多，对吧？
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So there's this whole-
所以这就是整个——
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Oh, yeah
哦，是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
so that's very YouTube-ish-
所以这很像YouTube-
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
It's super playful.
真是超级好玩啊
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
male type humor.
男性型幽默。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
It's playful.
很好玩。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's one hit.
这是一击。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
That's great.
太好了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's done.
完成了。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It gets a ton of likes-
得到了很多人的喜欢——
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and it propagates.
它会传播。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
None of this two or three chess moves down the road.
这两三盘棋都没有走下去。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
That's right.
这是正确的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So it's very clap back sometimes, or in that case, building up Jocko, who doesn't need any more building up, but people do it anyway.
所以有时候，或者在这种情况下，建立乔科是非常值得鼓掌的，他不需要更多的建立，但人们无论如何都会这样做。
So things of that sort.
诸如此类的事情。
So I'm interested in the nuance here because You're telling me that girls are killing themselves more.
所以我对这里的细微差别很感兴趣，因为你告诉我女孩自杀的次数更多。
They're depressed.
他们很沮丧。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Well, their increase in suicide is larger.
嗯，他们自杀的增幅更大。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Boys have a much higher suicide rate.
男孩的自杀率要高得多。
So-
所以——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
...
...
many more boys die from suicide than from-
死于自杀的男孩比死于——的男孩多得多
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because they pick more violent means?
因为他们选择了更暴力的手段？
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
That's one of the major reasons, and that's especially true in America where we have so many guns.
这是主要原因之一，在我们拥有如此多枪支的美国尤其如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Boys tend to use a gun or a tall building or a bridge, whereas girls tend to use pills or cutting their wrists, and the great majority of girl suicide attempts don't lead to death.
男孩倾向于使用枪、高楼或桥梁，而女孩则倾向于使用药物或割腕，而且绝大多数女孩的自杀未遂不会导致死亡。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So are most of the issues with girls and online use, social media, it's despair.
大多数关于女孩和在线使用、社交媒体的问题也是如此，令人绝望。
It's at home, anxious-
在家很着急
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
sad about self, self-critiquing, this kind of thing.
为自己悲伤，自我批评，诸如此类的事情。
You're telling me there's a huge, and I believe you, that there's a tremendous increase.
你告诉我有一个巨大的增长，我相信你，有一个巨大的增长。
You said hockey stick-like function.
你说的是类似曲棍球棒的功能。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
When we're looking at essentially capturing the tip of the pyramid in terms of extreme social interactions.
当我们着眼于从极端的社交互动角度本质上捕捉金字塔尖时。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm not being very clear here.
我这里说的不是很清楚。
We have these neural circuits that evolved for social interactions that are more heightened in girls.
我们的神经回路是为社交互动而进化的，而女孩的社交互动更为强烈。
They're getting much more of it faster-
他们获得的速度更快——
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and the consequences are no less and probably even more severe than they used to be, but it's still shunning, shaming, self-attack, and anxiety, depression, et cetera.
后果并不比以前少，甚至可能比以前更严重，但仍然是回避、羞辱、自我攻击、焦虑、抑郁等等。
In boys, the neural circuits that we're talking about are related to sex and violence.
在男孩中，我们所说的神经回路与性和暴力有关。
Those evolved over hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of years, and those are heightened.
这些进化了数十万年，甚至数百万年，而且还在不断增强。
So we're sort of capturing the extremes of these neural circuit functions.
所以我们正在捕捉这些神经回路功能的极端情况。
I'm looking at this through the lens of a neurobiologist.
我是通过神经生物学家的视角来看待这个问题的。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
No, this is great.
不，这太棒了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And this is where it seems we're running into trouble because the iceberg below all of that, the portion of the iceberg below those peaks of behavior and interactions, none of that's happening.
这就是我们似乎遇到麻烦的地方，因为所有这些下面的冰山，行为和互动峰值下面的冰山部分，这些都没有发生。
It's all happening faster, it's more potent, and the consequences are more severe.
这一切发生得更快，更有力，后果也更严重。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
That's right.
没错。
I think there's a good analogy here to junk food, where I've heard junk food or a cheeseburger described as a super stimulus.
我认为这与垃圾食品有一个很好的类比，我听过垃圾食品或芝士汉堡被描述为超级刺激。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
And ice cream is a super-duper stimulus.
冰淇淋是一种超级刺激。
It's got fat, it's got sugar.
里面有脂肪，里面有糖。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right, and a cheeseburger with a milkshake-
对了，还有芝士汉堡加奶昔——
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and the milkshake has candy in it.
奶昔里有糖果。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Yeah, ice cream.
是的，冰淇淋。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then you get a toy.
然后你会得到一个玩具。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And they're playing music.
他们正在演奏音乐。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
That's right, yeah.
没错，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's a dopamine bath.
这就是多巴胺浴。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
So if we think about life in the presence of junk food, if you raise your kids with junk food, you're going to have all kinds of metabolic problems, developmental problems, obesity, all sorts of diabetes, all sorts of terrible things.
因此，如果我们考虑一下垃圾食品存在下的生活，如果你用垃圾食品抚养你的孩子，你就会遇到各种代谢问题、发育问题、肥胖、各种糖尿病、各种可怕的事情。
Now, if you have a normal development, and then as an adult you indulge in more junk food, it's not good for you, but it's very different than being raised on it.
现在，如果你有正常的发育，然后作为一个成年人，你沉迷于更多的垃圾食品，这对你没有好处，但这与吃垃圾食品长大有很大不同。
The developing brain, the developing body, are much more sensitive.
正在发育的大脑、正在发育的身体都更加敏感。
And so the way you just put it before, it's like these evolved motives, you super satisfy them with these overwhelming, quick, easy hits.
所以就像你之前所说的那样，就像这些进化的动机一样，你通过这些压倒性的、快速的、简单的打击来超级满足他们。
It may not be so bad for an adult.
对于一个成年人来说，这可能并没有那么糟糕。
We can choose to pay for sex.
我们可以选择为性付费。
We can choose to eat a cheeseburger and a milkshake.
我们可以选择吃芝士汉堡和奶昔。
But it's very important for kids.
但这对孩子来说非常重要。
We have to see the genes don't have that much information in them, but they start the brain developing, and then the brain has to sort of find its way.
我们必须看到基因中没有那么多信息，但它们启动大脑发育，然后大脑必须找到自己的方式。
The neurons have to find their way, guided by local signals, how to develop, and then the child has to kind of find its way through its culture, getting a sense of how do I behave here, and who am I, and how do I relate to people?
神经元必须在局部信号的引导下找到自己的道路，如何发育，然后孩子必须在其文化中找到自己的道路，了解我在这里的行为方式，我是谁，以及我如何与人相处？
And it's all a very delicate process that has to be drawn out over many, many years.
这都是一个非常微妙的过程，必须持续很多很多年。
Everything about us develops slowly, especially compared to other animals.
我们的一切发展都很缓慢，尤其是与其他动物相比。
And if you intervene in the developmental process and say, "Hey, kid, you want the endpoint without the journey?
如果你干预发展过程并说：“嘿，孩子，你想要终点而不是旅程吗？
Here you go.
给你。
Take it," you're cutting off development, and that's, I think, what the phone-based childhood is doing.
接受它，”你正在切断发展，我认为这就是基于手机的童年正在做的事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, here's my concern.
嗯，这是我的担忧。
There is a reality to these things we call critical or sensitive periods.
我们称之为关键期或敏感期的这些事情是有现实意义的。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Yes, let's talk about that.
是的，我们来谈谈这个吧。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Critical periods implies that it's open and shut, and they're actually sensitive periods for language learning, for brain plasticity, and the general contour of this is passive experience up until about age 25 dramatically shapes the maps in the brain that we have of social relationships, of the visual world, the auditory world.
关键期意味着它是开放和关闭的，它们实际上是语言学习和大脑可塑性的敏感时期，其总体轮廓是直到 25 岁左右的被动经历，戏剧性地塑造了我们大脑中的社会关系、视觉世界、听觉世界的地图。
There's just so much data to support this in animals and humans.
在动物和人类身上有很多数据支持这一点。
Then after about age 25, you can pry open the underlying neurobiological mechanisms for neuroplasticity, and you can rewire your brain, but it takes a hell of a lot of effort and/or pharmacology to assist, which is part of what the excitement about some of the psychedelic therapies are about.
然后在大约 25 岁之后，你可以撬开神经可塑性的潜在神经生物学机制，你可以重新连接你的大脑，但这需要大量的努力和/或药物来帮助，这就是一些迷幻疗法令人兴奋的部分原因。
And I'm not suggesting people just run out and take psychedelics, but-
我并不是建议人们直接跑出去服用迷幻药，但是——
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
But they can foster change in adults.
但它们可以促进成年人的改变。
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
they can foster change, and they're either neuromodulators or they stimulate the massive release of neuromodulators like dopamine, serotonin.
它们可以促进改变，它们要么是神经调节剂，要么刺激多巴胺、血清素等神经调节剂的大量释放。
Mostly serotonin and dopamine when we talk about psilocybin and MDMA, LSD, et cetera.
当我们谈论裸盖菇素和 MDMA、LSD 等时，主要是血清素和多巴胺。
But the plasticity needs to be directed, so just taking the drug doesn't do it on its own.
但可塑性需要有针对性，所以仅仅服用药物并不能自行发挥作用。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
So leaving that aside, what do we know for sure?
那么抛开这一点，我们能确定什么？
We know that as the brain progresses from age three, four, five, six, seven, there are milestones that have to be met.
我们知道，随着大脑从三岁、四岁、五岁、六岁、七岁开始发展，必须满足一些里程碑。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And in general, if a kid makes it to high school age or college age, regardless of whether or not they go to, hopefully they do, and graduate high school or college, there's a set of milestones that they have to reach.
一般来说，如果一个孩子到了高中年龄或大学年龄，无论他们是否上大学（希望他们能上大学），并从高中或大学毕业，他们都必须达到一系列里程碑。
The circuits are going to develop one way or another.
电路将以这样或那样的方式发展。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The question is, what are the thresholds under which dopamine is released?
问题是，多巴胺释放的阈值是多少？
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, I would argue, and I'll go on record saying that if a kid watches a lot of intense, high-potency, violent porn and that becomes his dopamine stimulus, well, then other stuff probably won't do it for him.
好吧，我会争辩说，我会公开表示，如果一个孩子看了很多激烈的、高效的、暴力的色情片，这成为了他的多巴胺刺激物，那么其他东西可能不会为他做这件事。
Whereas if there's a variety of experience or more, let's just say subtle, dare I even say healthier right, stimuli, then the dopamine system around courting and sex is more varied.
然而，如果有各种各样的经历或更多，让我们说微妙的，我什至敢说更健康的刺激，那么围绕求爱和性的多巴胺系统就会更加多样化。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Properly calibrated.
正确校准。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's at least more of a buffet and hopefully a healthier buffet.
这至少更像是自助餐，而且希望是更健康的自助餐。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Again, no judgment here of different proclivities, but here we're talking about the wiring of neural circuits.
再说一次，这里不对不同的倾向进行判断，但这里我们讨论的是神经回路的连接。
Same thing with food.
食物也是如此。
If one grows up on highly processed, very tasty food, for a while Fruits and vegetables in their pure form, meat and fish in their plain form are boring.
如果一个人是靠高度加工、非常美味的食物长大的，那么一段时间内，纯净的水果和蔬菜、纯净的肉和鱼会让人感到无聊。
It does not evoke the same reinforcing property.
它不会产生相同的增强性能。
And earlier, I forgot to mention why I prefer the word reinforcing as opposed to reward, because reward evokes this idea of the thing being the reward.
早些时候，我忘记提及为什么我更喜欢“强化”这个词而不是“奖励”，因为“奖励”会让人想起“事物就是奖励”的想法。
But reinforcement is a verb, and so as a verb, it brings the mind to the fact that these circuits are churning in the background there.
但强化是一个动词，因此作为一个动词，它让人们意识到这些电路正在那里的背景中搅动。
It's not just about getting the thing.
这不仅仅是得到东西。
It's the underlying biology that gets you there.
正是基础生物学帮助你实现这一目标。
And so I think that where I'm very concerned is that we've now got, what?
所以我认为我非常担心的是我们现在有什么？
Millions and millions of kids, boys and girls, whose neural circuits were wired up wrong.
数以百万计的孩子，无论男孩还是女孩，他们的神经回路都出现了错误。
And now there needs to be, it seems, a very active process in unwiring that, or at least shifting those neural circuits towards something that's more adaptive.
现在看来，需要一个非常活跃的过程来解除它，或者至少将这些神经回路转向更具适应性的东西。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So before we talk about what to do if you're older, because I have the great good fortune to be sitting here with you right now, I'd like to ask you to help me expand what I say in the book.
因此，在我们讨论如果你年纪大了该怎么办之前，因为我很幸运现在能和你坐在一起，我想请你帮助我扩展我在书中所说的内容。
So you gave a description of critical periods where there's a hard beginning and end, and of sensitive periods are periods in which it's just a lot easier to learn something.
因此，您描述了关键时期，其中有一个艰难的开始和结束，而敏感时期是学习某些东西要容易得多的时期。
And if you don't learn-- So, for example, phonology is one of the clearest cases, your accent.
如果你不学习——那么，举例来说，音韵学是最明显的例子之一，你的口音。
When a family moves to America from somewhere else, if you've got two kids in the family, like one of my advisors at Penn in grad school, Henry Gleitman, had a very heavy German accent, and his younger brother, two years younger, had no accent whatsoever because Henry was 14 and his brother was 12 when they came to America from fleeing Nazi Germany.
当一个家庭从其他地方搬到美国时，如果家里有两个孩子，就像我在宾夕法尼亚大学读研究生时的一位顾问亨利·格莱特曼（Henry Gleitman）有很重的德国口音，而他两岁的弟弟则没有任何口音，因为当他们逃离纳粹德国来到美国时，亨利 14 岁，他的兄弟 12 岁。
And so there's a sensitive period that kind of closes at puberty for language.
因此，语言的敏感期在青春期结束。
So I talk about that in the book, and then I talk about more speculative sensitive period that I've read about.
所以我在书中谈到了这一点，然后我谈到了我读到的更具投机性的敏感时期。
A few people think this exists, and I cite a Japanese study of Japanese businessmen who moved to California in the '70s as Japanese business were thriving.
有些人认为这种情况存在，我引用了一项日本对日本商人的研究，这些日本商人在 70 年代日本商业蓬勃发展时搬到了加利福尼亚州。
And they looked at when did the kids come to feel American?
他们还研究了孩子们什么时候开始感受到美国精神的？
And the answer was, if they came and left before age nine, nothing.
答案是，如果他们在九岁之前来了又离开了，那什么也没有。
They went back to Japan, they were totally Japanese.
他们回到了日本，他们就完全是日本人了。
If they came when the kid was 15, nothing, the kid was already Japanese, but wasn't going to ever feel American.
如果他们在孩子 15 岁的时候来，那没什么，孩子已经是日本人了，但永远不会觉得自己是美国人。
If they came and spent a few years between about nine and 15, then they go back to Japan, now, especially if the kid's now 15 or 16, the kid now feels American and has trouble fitting back in.
如果他们来日本并在大约 9 岁到 15 岁之间度过了几年，那么他们现在就会回到日本，特别是如果孩子现在 15 岁或 16 岁，孩子现在会感觉自己是美国人，很难融入其中。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Puberty.
青春期。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Well, that's right.
嗯，没错。
There's a period, it's early puberty.
有一个时期，就是青春期早期。
It's like just before puberty to sort of midway through puberty seems to be a sensitive period for culture learning and for identity, your very deep sense of who you are and how you relate to people.
就像青春期之前到青春期中期似乎是文化学习和身份的敏感时期，你对自己是谁以及如何与人相处有非常深刻的认识。
So this is speculative, but it does seem to fit a lot of interesting data.
所以这是推测性的，但它似乎确实符合很多有趣的数据。
And the reason why I focus on this in the book, I decided late in the process, I knew I had to talk about puberty.
我在书中重点关注这一点的原因是我在这个过程的后期决定的，我知道我必须谈论青春期。
I was going to have a section on it.
我本来打算写一个章节来讨论它。
I realized, my God, this is so important, I need a whole chapter on puberty.
我意识到，天哪，这太重要了，我需要一整章来讨论青春期。
And I talk about initiation rites.
我谈论入会仪式。
All over the world, adults think kids don't just turn into men and women.
在世界各地，成年人都认为孩子不仅仅会变成男人和女人。
They need help.
他们需要帮助。
They need to be given the special knowledge.
他们需要获得特殊知识。
For boys, there's usually ordeals more so than for girls.
对于男孩来说，通常比女孩要经历更多的磨难。
And so I think what's going on is we do have this sensitive period for cultural learning.
所以我认为我们确实处于文化学习的敏感时期。
How do you learn to become a person in your culture?
你如何学习成为你文化中的一个人？
And, I was in the Boy Scouts, and Boy Scouts was created around World War I as paramilitary training, learn virtues of self-denial and brave, clean, loyal, trustworthy, reverent.
而且，我加入了童子军，童子军是在第一次世界大战前后作为准军事训练而创建的，学习克己和勇敢、干净、忠诚、值得信赖、虔诚的美德。
I forgot the order, all messed up.
我忘记了顺序，一切都乱了。
But it was a set of virtues.
但这是一系列美德。
So would you agree, or what would you say about sensitive periods for this really high-level stuff?
那么您是否同意，或者您对这种真正高级别内容的敏感期有何看法？
We're not talking vision or phonology, which are fairly low-level cognitive things.
我们不是在谈论视觉或语音学，它们是相当低级的认知事物。
We're talking like your sense of who you are.
我们谈论的是你对自己是谁的感觉。
What would you think about a sensitive period for that?
您对敏感期有何看法？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
First of all, puberty is just fascinating and under-discussed, in my opinion, as a critical developmental milestone.
首先，在我看来，青春期作为一个重要的发展里程碑是令人着迷的，但尚未得到充分讨论。
It's also the fastest rate of aging that we ever undergo.
这也是我们经历过的最快的衰老速度。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Aging meaning brain change or growth or what?
衰老意味着大脑的变化或生长还是什么？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In our lifespan.
在我们的一生中。
In terms of change of the brain, in terms of rate of-- There are some theories that the rate of puberty and the timing of onset of puberty actually might predict something about longevity.
就大脑的变化而言，就青春期的发生率而言，有一些理论认为，青春期的发生率和青春期开始的时间实际上可以预测有关寿命的某些信息。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Oh, which way?
哦，哪条路？
Early puberty is bad.
青春期提前是不好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Early puberty might be bad.
青春期提前可能会不好。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But I want to be very careful in saying that some people, including myself, have a very protracted puberty.
但我要非常小心地说，有些人，包括我自己，青春期非常漫长。
So I hit puberty around 14, but I didn't get facial hair until I was out of college.
所以我在14岁左右进入了青春期，但直到大学毕业我才开始长胡子。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Wow.
哇。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So some people develop the so-called secondary sexual characteristics slowly.
所以有些人所谓的第二性征发育得很慢。
But I always had this voice since I was a little kid.
但我从小就一直有这个声音。
So at five years old, they called me Froggy.
所以五岁时，他们叫我青蛙。
Now, that's me, and everyone goes through these things differently.
现在，这就是我，每个人经历这些事情的方式都不同。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But puberty is the most profound brain change that one can undergo.
但青春期是一个人可能经历的最深刻的大脑变化。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Okay.
好的。
Tell me more about it.
告诉我更多有关它的信息。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Because I just keep saying, like, "Well, it starts in the back of the brain, and then..." But be specific.
因为我只是一直说，“好吧，它从大脑后部开始，然后......”但要具体。
What is happening to the brain during puberty that would be relevant here to a sensitive period?
青春期期间大脑发生了什么与敏感期相关的事情？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay, so this goes back to the biology that you accurately described earlier, which is that while we're in utero, if there's a Y chromosome, then a bunch of genes are made, like Mullerian-inhibiting hormone.
好吧，这又回到了你之前准确描述的生物学，那就是当我们在子宫里时，如果有 Y 染色体，就会产生一堆基因，比如苗勒氏管抑制激素。
The Mullerian ducts become inhibited, the testes grow, then testosterone is secreted.
苗勒氏管受到抑制，睾丸生长，然后分泌睾酮。
And testosterone and some of its derivatives, like dihydrotestosterone, organize the brain "male".
睾酮及其一些衍生物，如二氢睾酮，将大脑组织为“男性”。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This is dangerous language nowadays, but-
如今这是危险的语言，但是-
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
It's less dangerous now than it was two years ago.
现在的危险程度比两年前要小一些。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Well, we're not talking about gender, we're talking about biological sex here.
好吧，我们不是在谈论性别，我们在这里谈论的是生物性别。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Biological sex, yeah.
生物性别，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And we're not talking about the verb sex.
我们不是在谈论动词性。
We were talking about that earlier.
我们之前讨论过这个。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We're talking about biological sex.
我们谈论的是生物性别。
So what I'm describing here is not disputed.
所以我在这里描述的内容是没有争议的。
So there are these organizing effects of hormones early on, and then there are the activating effects of hormones that happen during puberty.
因此，早期激素会产生这些组织作用，然后在青春期会产生激素的激活作用。
So then puberty hits, the testes starts secreting testosterone.
青春期到来后，睾丸开始分泌睾酮。
If there are fat stores on the body, they secrete estrogen.
如果体内有脂肪储存，它们就会分泌雌激素。
Again, testosterone and estrogen working in parallel.
同样，睾酮和雌激素同时发挥作用。
And in males, a number of different brain areas, in particular the hypothalamus, but also The forebrain and associated areas undergo massive plasticity and growth relating the-
在男性中，许多不同的大脑区域，特别是下丘脑，还有前脑和相关区域都经历了巨大的可塑性和生长，这些区域与-
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Wait, the forebrain.
等等，前脑。
The frontal lobe?
额叶？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Right.
正确的。
The frontal lobe.
额叶。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
How much
多少钱
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, so one of the most profound changes in puberty that happens, especially in males, but also in females, is that...
哦，青春期发生的最深刻的变化之一，尤其是男性，但女性也是如此，是......
Well, we can describe the major function of the prefrontal cortex, this neural real estate right behind the forebrain.
好吧，我们可以描述前额皮质的主要功能，这个神经区域位于前脑后面。
It has many different sub-domains involved in things, but one of its main functions, this was beautifully described by the guy who's now the head neurosurgeon at Neuralink, Matt MacDougall, is to say, "Shh" to the impulse-driving actions of the hypothalamus in particular.
它有许多不同的子域参与事物，但它的主要功能之一，现任 Neuralink 首席神经外科医生马特·麦克杜格尔 (Matt MacDougall) 精美地描述了这一点，就是对下丘脑的冲动驱动行为说“嘘”。
Hypothalamus houses neurons for temperature regulation, sexual drive, hunger, aggression.
下丘脑含有负责温度调节、性欲、饥饿和攻击性的神经元。
I mean, so much so that you can go in and stimulate certain neurons in the ventromedial hypothalamus with an electrode, and you would go into a rage.
我的意思是，如果你用电极去刺激下丘脑腹内侧的某些神经元，你就会勃然大怒。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Wow.
哇。
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Stimulate neurons also within the ventromedial hypothalamus, just nearby, and you'd want to go spend some time with your wife alone.
刺激附近的腹内侧下丘脑内的神经元，你就会想和你的妻子单独呆一段时间。
Let's just put it that way.
我们就这么说吧。
I mean, a remarkable specificity of the neuronal outputs to behavioral change and state change.
我的意思是，神经元输出对行为改变和状态改变具有显着的特异性。
So all of that gets set up essentially during puberty because the neurons of the hypothalamus are responsive to these hormones that are coming from the gonads.
因此，所有这些基本上都是在青春期期间建立的，因为下丘脑的神经元对来自性腺的这些激素有反应。
And in females, it's, yes, mainly secretion of estrogen, but also testosterone.
是的，女性主要分泌雌激素，但也分泌睾酮。
Okay.
好的。
So the brain is changing in dramatic ways, not the least of which is the forebrain is learning how to suppress impulse.
因此，大脑正在发生巨大的变化，其中最重要的是前脑正在学习如何抑制冲动。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay?
好吧？
And some of that's-
其中一些是-
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
it gets feedback from behaviors-
它从行为中获取反馈-
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
from parenting.
来自养育。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Learning how to suppress.
学习如何压制。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Learning how to suppress from-
学习如何抑制——
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
And if it doesn't get practice-
如果没有得到练习-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
social reward or punishment
社会奖励或惩罚
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
...
...
if it doesn't get daily practice in suppressing, if you're able to give in to all your urges.
如果你没有每天练习压抑，如果你能够屈服于你所有的冲动。
Because I'm finding, when I sit at my computer, my rule now, I have to say to myself out loud, "Finish what you start.
因为我发现，当我坐在电脑前时，我现在的规则是，我必须大声对自己说：“完成你开始的事情。
Finish what you start.
完成你开始的事情。
No, don't go check until you've done...
不，完成之前不要去检查...
You only have two more pages to read.
您只剩下两页需要阅读了。
Read those two pages bef..." But I can't do it.
请先阅读这两页……”但我做不到。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
正确的。
Well, this is the gradual creep of sort of a, we don't want to make it clinical, but an adult ADHD-like symptoms that we all are suffering from, right?
嗯，这是一种逐渐蔓延的现象，我们不想让它临床化，但我们都患有类似成人多动症的症状，对吧？
It's just we're at a buffet, right?
我们只是在吃自助餐，对吧？
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
That's right.
这是正确的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it's a delicious buffet.
这是一顿美味的自助餐。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
That's a good example.
这是一个很好的例子。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So, that's one of the main things, this forebrain to hypothalamic wiring.
所以，这是主要的事情之一，前脑到下丘脑的线路。
The other is, and this is not trivial, and you mentioned the context of language learning, and Dr. Eddie Chang, who's a neurosurgeon, actually chair of neurosurgery at UCSF, knows a lot about this, and critical periods, is that there are hormone effects on, say, thickening of the vocal cords, which is why, on average, boys have deeper voices than girls and so forth.
另一个是，这不是小事，你提到了语言学习的背景，Eddie Chang 博士是一名神经外科医生，实际上是加州大学旧金山分校的神经外科主任，他对此了解很多，关键时期是激素对声带增厚的影响，这就是为什么平均而言男孩的声音比女孩低沉等等。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
After puberty, yeah.
青春期过后，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And there's a lot of feedback from those signals in terms of the social world, because now a young boy whose voice deepens-
这些信号在社交领域产生了很多反馈，因为现在一个小男孩的声音变得低沉——
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
who's also acquiring more knowledge, is talking to other people about that knowledge, and he's being treated differently, and there's feedback in terms of his self-concept.
他也获得了更多的知识，正在与其他人谈论这些知识，他受到了不同的对待，并且在他的自我概念方面得到了反馈。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And that's where it gets kind of high-level abstract.
这就是它获得某种高级抽象的地方。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Okay, good.
好的，很好。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In girls, there's feedback of, sometimes it's bodily changes, positive or negative feedback from peers, other girls and/or boys, but also knowledge.
对于女孩来说，反馈有时是身体变化、来自同龄人、其他女孩和/或男孩的积极或消极反馈，但也有知识。
She's out there talking about, well, she's brilliant in math or brilliant in literature and getting the feedback, and then self-knowledge starts to accumulate.
她在那里谈论，嗯，她在数学或文学方面很出色，并获得反馈，然后自我认识开始积累。
And the location of identity in the brain is unclear.
并且身份在大脑中的位置尚不清楚。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's probably a distributed network.
这可能是一个分布式网络。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Go ahead.
前进。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's probably an emergent property of a lot of different things.
它可能是许多不同事物的新兴属性。
So we can't really point to one area.
所以我们不能真正指出一个区域。
But it's learning impulse control, reinforcement contingencies.
但这是学习冲动控制、强化意外事件。
On what timescale can I get what I want to meet certain drives, and to what extent should I suppress those drives?
在什么时间范围内我可以得到我想要的东西来满足某些驱动力，以及我应该在多大程度上抑制这些驱动力？
And traditionally, it was, I think, through religion and parenting and social cues that you learn, well, if I want something, is it okay to do it?
传统上，我认为，通过宗教、养育和社会暗示，你会学到，如果我想要什么，可以这样做吗？
That there are consequences to eating more or less, consequences to be...
吃得多或少都会产生后果，后果是……
Okay, so it's super complex.
好吧，所以它非常复杂。
But that all happens sometimes in a summer.
但这有时会发生在夏天。
This is what's so amazing about puberty to me.
这就是青春期对我来说如此神奇的地方。
Or the acquisition of facial hair in a boy.
或者男孩面部毛发的获得。
Suddenly he's looked at differently.
突然，他的目光变得不同了。
People start projecting all sorts of futures on him.
人们开始把各种各样的未来投射到他身上。
But we do this, I notice.
但我注意到我们这样做了。
I'm not a child psychologist, obviously, but as soon as my niece started drawing, she's going to be an artist.
显然，我不是儿童心理学家，但一旦我的侄女开始画画，她就会成为一名艺术家。
As soon as a boy starts building or a girl starts-
一旦男孩开始建造或女孩开始-
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
He's going to be an architect
他要成为一名建筑师
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
gets a math problem right-
做对了一道数学题——
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
she's going to be a mathematician.
她将成为一名数学家。
We project all this stuff, and there's no question that that feeds back on identity.
我们投射所有这些东西，毫无疑问，这会反馈到身份。
But in terms of online use, I can't even imagine how much of this is diminished by only showing a specific part of ourselves, and I can't even imagine how much of it is exacerbated in terms of what we are rewarded for during puberty.
但就在线使用而言，我什至无法想象仅展示我们自己的特定部分会在多大程度上减少这种情况，而且我什至无法想象就我们在青春期获得的奖励而言，这种情况会加剧多少。
So here's what we know in both animals and humans, which is that neuroplasticity, while it responds to punishment, is exquisitely sensitive, becomes sort of a runaway train for more plasticity under conditions of dopamine reinforcement and reward.
因此，我们在动物和人类身上都知道，神经可塑性虽然对惩罚做出反应，但非常敏感，在多巴胺强化和奖励的条件下，它变成了一种失控的火车，以提高可塑性。
So you can imagine that the girl using the filter, the Instagram filter, who gets rewarded for looking a certain way, maybe excessively thin or something, or what leads to excessively thin.
所以你可以想象一下，使用滤镜（Instagram 滤镜）的女孩，会因看起来某种特定的方式而获得奖励，可能是因为太瘦或者其他原因，或者是什么导致了太瘦。
There's no question that rewards drive neuroplasticity faster than punishment.
毫无疑问，奖励比惩罚更快地促进神经可塑性。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Wait, wait.
等等，等等。
Make sure I understand this.
确保我理解这一点。
You're saying suppose a girl gets onto Instagram and she's now consuming stuff about being thin, and for some reason, she finds this rewarding.
你是说假设一个女孩上了 Instagram，她现在正在消费有关瘦身的东西，并且出于某种原因，她发现这很有价值。
Are you saying that the quick dopamine circuits where she posts something and she gets likes for it-
你是说，快速的多巴胺循环让她发布了一些东西，然后她就得到了点赞——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
...
...
are you saying that that actually will extend neuroplasticity?
你是说这实际上会延长神经可塑性吗？
The fact that she's getting more rapid dopamine, that will make her more neuroplastic and her brain will change more?
事实上，她的多巴胺分泌速度更快，这会让她的神经可塑性更强，她的大脑也会发生更多变化？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yes.
是的。
It will accelerate learning for whatever contingency led to that.
它将加速针对任何导致这种情况的意外事件的学习。
Whatever led to that.
不管是什么导致了这一点。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Wow.
哇。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So we know this in animals and humans.
所以我们在动物和人类身上都知道这一点。
Even though they're exquisitely sensitive, plasticity is exquisitely sensitive to punishment.
尽管它们非常敏感，但可塑性对惩罚也非常敏感。
It only takes one shock learning in one corner of a cage-
只需要在笼子的一个角落里进行一次冲击学习——
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Right.
对。
Oh, yeah
哦，是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
or getting sick at one particular restaurant that you don't want to go back again.
或者在一家特定的餐厅生病而您不想再去。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But when it comes to social dynamics, we know that reward leads to almost what I would call runaway plasticity in the circuits that generated the behaviors That led to that particular reward.
但当谈到社会动态时，我们知道奖励几乎会导致我所说的回路中的失控可塑性，这些回路产生了导致特定奖励的行为。
And there are a number of experiments that explain this.
有许多实验可以解释这一点。
The work of Mike Merzenich at UCSF, who largely worked on adult plasticity, but showed that when you activate dopamine release in the brain, fortunately, both during development but also in adulthood, you essentially create a window of superplasticity.
加州大学旧金山分校的迈克·梅泽尼奇（Mike Merzenich）主要研究成人可塑性，但他的研究表明，幸运的是，当你激活大脑中的多巴胺释放时，无论是在发育期间还是在成年期，你基本上都会创造一个超可塑性的窗口。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Okay, that's amazing.
好吧，太棒了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So dopamine reward-
所以多巴胺奖励——
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
That's amazing
太棒了
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that neuromodulator is a window for superplasticity, and evolutionarily, it makes sense.
神经调节剂是超可塑性的一个窗口，从进化的角度来看，这是有道理的。
Like, "Oh my goodness, there's abundance here of something."
就像，“天哪，这里有很多东西。”
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Oh, time to learn something new.
哦，是时候学习新东西了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's right.
没错。
We've overemphasized the extent to which plasticity is driven by punishment.
我们过分强调了惩罚在多大程度上驱动了可塑性。
But the neuromodulators that allow for plasticity, in particular in puberty and as adults, are largely dopamine-dependent and acetylcholine-dependent.
但允许可塑性的神经调节剂，特别是在青春期和成人，很大程度上依赖于多巴胺和乙酰胆碱。
The acetylcholine generally increases focus, broadly speaking.
从广义上讲，乙酰胆碱通常会增强注意力。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Oh, okay.
哦，好吧。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It does a bunch of other things, controls muscular contraction, et cetera.
它还有很多其他的作用，控制肌肉收缩等等。
So what we're basically saying here is that if a kid gets a strongly reinforcing experience, I'd be willing to bet both arms that the neural circuits that help generate whatever behaviors led to that experience are going to be strengthened in one trial-
所以我们在这里基本上想说的是，如果一个孩子获得了强烈强化的体验，我愿意打赌，帮助产生导致这种体验的任何行为的神经回路将在一次试验中得到加强——
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Wow
哇
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
to the extent that it will be very easy to generate those behaviors again.
以至于很容易再次产生这些行为。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Wow.
哇。
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Thank you.
谢谢你。
This is exactly what I wanted to know, to deepen the theorizing that I do in the book.
这正是我想知道的，以加深我在书中所做的理论阐述。
So now, this is actually the perfect time for us to switch over to the four main recommendations-
所以现在，这实际上是我们转向四个主要建议的最佳时机——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Please
请
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
...
...
because they build exactly on what you just said, and they help me explain why this is so important.
因为它们完全建立在你刚才所说的基础上，并且帮助我解释为什么这如此重要。
So, I think one reason why the book seems to be doing very well, and people seem to like and pass it on, is that it's not just doom and gloom.
因此，我认为这本书似乎表现出色、人们似乎喜欢并传承它的一个原因是，它不仅仅是厄运和悲观。
It's not just, "Oh, we've messed up our kids.
这不仅仅是，“哦，我们把我们的孩子搞砸了。
Oh, these terrible devices." Rather, it's about a vision of childhood which is actually beautiful.
哦，这些可怕的设备。”相反，它是关于童年的美好愿景。
It's the one that most of us older people had.
这是我们大多数老年人都拥有的。
It's with play outdoors and all.
就是在户外玩耍等等。
And so my analysis in the book is that the reason why it got this far is because it's a set of collective action traps.
所以我在书中的分析是，它之所以走到这一步，是因为它是一组集体行动陷阱。
Every 10-year-old needs a smartphone now because every other 10-year-old has one, and you don't want to make your kid be alone.
现在每个 10 岁的孩子都需要一部智能手机，因为每个其他 10 岁的孩子都有一部智能手机，而且您不想让您的孩子独自一人。
So the four recommendations I have are four ways of breaking out of the trap, but the first two are really about delaying and getting past this period of plasticity.
因此，我的四个建议是摆脱陷阱的四种方法，但前两个实际上是关于推迟并度过这段可塑性时期。
And you really helped me see why it's so urgent to delay until late puberty at least.
你真的帮助我明白了为什么至少要推迟到青春期后期是如此紧迫。
So here are the four norms that I think can break us out of this trap.
我认为以下四个规范可以让我们摆脱这个陷阱。
Norm number one, no smartphone before high school.
第一个标准是，高中之前没有智能手机。
You can give your kid a flip phone.
您可以给您的孩子一部翻盖手机。
The millennials had flip phones.
千禧一代拥有翻盖手机。
They came out fine.
他们结果很好。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No access or no smartphone of their own?
无法访问或没有自己的智能手机？
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Your own.
你自己的。
You can't have your own.
你不能拥有自己的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
And that would even go for an iPad.
iPad 也同样如此。
If you give your kid an iPad and say, "Here, Billy, this is your iPad.
如果你给你的孩子一台 iPad 并说：“比利，这是你的 iPad。
You can keep it in your room and use it anywhere in the house, and you can take it outside even," although maybe no Wi-Fi.
你可以把它放在你的房间里，在家里的任何地方使用它，你甚至可以把它带到外面，”尽管可能没有 Wi-Fi。
Whatever.
任何。
The point is, the internet is an amazing thing, and you can have a computer in your living room or kitchen when you have young kids, and they can do things on the computer.
关键是，互联网是一个了不起的东西，当你有小孩时，你可以在客厅或厨房里放一台电脑，他们可以在电脑上做事。
But you do not want to give your child the entire internet in his or her pocket, and you do not want the entire world to be able to reach your child whenever they want to.
但您不想让您的孩子在他或她的口袋里使用整个互联网，并且您不希望整个世界都能够在您的孩子想要的时候联系到他们。
So it's just insane that we're giving children, even before puberty, a smartphone.
因此，我们甚至在青春期之前就给孩子们配备智能手机，这真是太疯狂了。
Let them have a flip phone or a simple phone, watch, something like that.
让他们拥有一部翻盖手机或简单的手机、手表之类的东西。
That's rule number one.
这是第一条规则。
Rule number two is the most relevant to what we're just talking about, and that is no social media until 16.
第二条规则与我们刚才讨论的内容最相关，那就是 16 岁之前禁止使用社交媒体。
There is, I believe, no way to make social media safe for children.
我认为，没有办法让社交媒体对儿童来说是安全的。
That is, if they're going to be entering a domain in which prestige is gained by having posts that get the most likes and followers, you're making them be brand managers.
也就是说，如果他们要进入一个通过发布最多喜欢和关注者的帖子来获得声望的领域，那么你就让他们成为品牌经理。
You're making them be performative.
你让他们变得富有表现力。
This is not playful.
这可不好玩。
They're going to be exposed to horrible things.
他们将面临可怕的事情。
I now ask young people, "Is there something that you saw when you were young that you really regret seeing?" And a lot of them have an answer.
我现在问年轻人：“你年轻时有没有看到一些让你非常后悔看到的东西？”他们中的很多人都有答案。
My 21-year-old doorman just told me about The Gauntlet, running the gauntlet.
我 21 岁的门卫刚刚告诉我有关 The Gauntlet 的事，正在接受挑战。
It's a series of 20 videos.
这是一个由 20 个视频组成的系列。
It's a challenge.
这是一个挑战。
Can you watch these 20 videos, which end with a Mexican drug gang dismembering a person who's alive?
你能看一下这 20 个以墨西哥贩毒团伙肢解活人为结局的视频吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh.
哦。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Things like that.
诸如此类的事情。
Like, "Yes, I'm tough enough.
就像，“是的，我足够坚强。
I can do that." Really?
我能做到。”真的吗？
At what age do you want your kids watching people being dismembered?
您希望您的孩子在什么年龄观看人们被肢解？
10?
10？
11?
11？
Is that okay?
可以吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And those images are forever burned in the brain.
而那些画面就永远烙印在脑海里。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
They're forever.
他们是永远的。
That's right.
这是正确的。
I didn't even watch the video.
我什至没有看视频。
You know what?
你知道吗？
I'm sorry I said that.
很抱歉我这么说了。
I hope your listeners won't-
我希望你的听众不会——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, we won't provide a link.
不，我们不会提供链接。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, I'll say that trauma is defined as an adverse event that forever changes the way the brain responds in ways that make people less effective in life.
不，我想说的是，创伤被定义为一种不良事件，它永远改变大脑的反应方式，使人们的生活效率降低。
So don't do it to yourself.
所以不要对自己这样做。
Like, I wouldn't watch the Dahmer movie.
就像，我不会看达默电影。
Everyone was talking about the Dahmer movie.
每个人都在谈论《达默》电影。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
All I had to see was 10 seconds of the trailer to know-
我只要看预告片的 10 秒就知道了——
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Ooh.
哦。
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I'll pay money not to see that.
我会付钱看不到它。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Not because I couldn't-
不是因为我不能-
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Because you can't unsee it
因为你无法取消它
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
get through it.
熬过去。
I'm sure I could force myself to, but I don't want that in my neural real estate.
我确信我可以强迫自己这样做，但我不希望我的神经财产出现这种情况。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's just, they're-
只是，他们是——
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
That's right
没错
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
for obvious reasons.
出于显而易见的原因。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
So let's go back to what you said about neuroplasticity.
那么让我们回到你所说的神经可塑性。
So because if it's true that puberty is a sensitive period for many higher level aspects of our humanity, such as identity, relationship skills, all that stuff, then you should be extra careful.
因此，如果青春期确实是我们人性的许多更高层次方面的敏感时期，比如身份、人际关系技巧等，那么你应该格外小心。
When your kids are 9 to 15 years old, you should be extra careful about what's going into their eyes and ears.
当您的孩子 9 至 15 岁时，您应该格外小心进入他们眼睛和耳朵的东西。
And instead, that's when we give up all control.
相反，那是我们放弃所有控制权的时候。
You know when our kids are little, they pay attention to us.
你知道当我们的孩子还小的时候，他们会关注我们。
We read to them.
我们读书给他们听。
We have a lot of control about what our kids consume when they're toddlers and when they're very young.
我们对孩子在幼儿时期和很小的时候吃什么有很多控制权。
But as they reach middle school and high school, they're moving away.
但当他们进入初中和高中时，他们就搬走了。
They're seeking out other stuff.
他们正在寻找其他东西。
And that's exactly when we say, "Here.
就在那时我们说：“在这里。
Here's your own device.
这是您自己的设备。
You want to go down a rabbit hole of eating disorder stuff?
你想深入饮食失调的兔子洞吗？
You want to go down a rabbit hole of Tourette syndrome?
你想陷入图雷特综合症的兔子洞吗？
You're going to copy people who have these symptoms?" So the last thing we should be doing is exposing our children, in this sensitive period, to socializing information from random weirdos on the internet who were selected by an algorithm for the extremity of their behavior and the degree to which that extremity earned them likes, which makes them extra prestigious.
你要效仿有这些症状的人吗？”因此，在这个敏感时期，我们最不应该做的事情就是让我们的孩子接触来自互联网上随机怪人的社交信息，这些怪人是通过算法根据其行为的极端性以及这种极端性为他们赢得喜欢的程度而选择的，这使他们格外享有声望。
So yeah, I Laws that raise the age to 16 or 18, I think that's what we need.
所以，是的，我制定了将年龄提高到 16 或 18 岁的法律，我认为这就是我们所需要的。
This is just not appropriate for minors.
这只是不适合未成年人。
Even if there's some good stuff on it, I think it's vastly outweighed by the bad.
即使其中有一些好的东西，我认为它也远远超过了坏的东西。
So that's the second norm, no social media till 16.
所以这是第二个规范，16 岁之前不能使用社交媒体。
The third norm is phone-free schools.
第三个规范是无电话学校。
And again, if we expect kids to learn, and learning is brain change.
再说一次，如果我们期望孩子们学习，那么学习就是大脑的改变。
If you're learning, you're developing a skill, something about your brain has changed.
如果你在学习，你就是在发展一项技能，你的大脑的某些部分就会发生变化。
How about instead of learning math or reading or litter or anything else, how about if you just do more phone stuff?
与其学习数学、阅读、乱扔垃圾或其他任何东西，不如多做一些打电话的事情怎么样？
You just spend more time in school on TikTok.
你只是在学校花更多的时间在 TikTok 上。
There was just an article in "The Wall Street Journal" about a teacher who fought against the phones and finally gave up and quit.
刚刚《华尔街日报》上有一篇文章，讲的是一位老师与手机抗争，最后放弃、退出的故事。
And one of the students in his class is quoted that she'd come into class, and she would just go on TikTok, and that's what she would do all class long is just watch TikTok in her desk.
据报道，他班上的一名学生说，她一进课堂，就会上 TikTok，而她整个课堂都会做的就是在办公桌上看 TikTok。
And no, you should be learning, not doing more TikTok in school.
不，你应该学习，而不是在学校做更多的 TikTok。
So it's just insane that we let kids take the greatest distraction devices ever invented into the classroom with them, and they can't help it.
所以，我们让孩子们把有史以来发明的最棒的分散注意力的设备带进教室，而他们却无法控制，这真是太疯狂了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I would argue that they are learning, but what they're learning are these rapidly reinforced dopamine loops that lead to diminished amounts of dopamine, not just in short periods of time, but very quickly, and that inhibit other forms of learning.
我认为他们正在学习，但他们正在学习的是这些快速增强的多巴胺循环，这些循环导致多巴胺的量减少，不仅在短时间内，而且非常迅速，并且抑制其他形式的学习。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Yeah, that's right.
是的，没错。
And the ability to pay attention-
以及集中注意力的能力——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right
右
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
...
...
to a teacher, which is not as stimulating as what you're seeing on TikTok.
对老师来说，这并不像你在 TikTok 上看到的那么刺激。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, there's tons of learning, but it's learning of all the wrong things.
是的，有很多东西需要学习，但都是在学习错误的东西。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
That's right.
没错。
So that's the third norm-
这就是第三个规范——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
...
...
is phone-free schools.
是没有电话的学校。
You have to lock up the phone in the morning, either in a phone lock or a Yondr pouch.
早上你必须把手机锁起来，要么放在手机锁里，要么放在 Yondr 的袋子里。
If the policy is you keep it in your pocket, that's not a policy.
如果保单是你把它放在口袋里，那就不是保单。
That's just a recipe for constant conflict with the kids because they can't help it.
这只会导致与孩子们不断发生冲突，因为他们无法控制。
They have to text.
他们必须发短信。
If anyone's texting, they have to be texting.
如果有人发短信，他们就必须发短信。
And the fourth norm is the hardest.
第四个规范是最难的。
The fourth norm is far more independence, free play, and responsibility in the real world.
第四个规范是现实世界中更加独立、自由发挥和责任感。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Because what we need to do is not just roll back the phone-based childhood and make them just sit and do nothing.
因为我们需要做的不仅仅是回滚以手机为基础的童年，让他们只是坐着什么也不做。
We have to do is restore a really fun, adventurous childhood, like what you were saying.
我们要做的就是恢复一个真正有趣、冒险的童年，就像你所说的那样。
You go out on your bicycle, you're hanging out with your friends, sometimes something happens, and boy, you have memories.
你骑着自行车出去，和朋友一起出去玩，有时会发生一些事情，男孩，你有回忆。
Exciting things happen, scary things happen.
令人兴奋的事情发生，可怕的事情发生。
You have memories.
你有回忆。
And I worry about what boys today-- I have my group of friends that we still talk about things that happened, amazing things that happened when we were in college or after college.
我担心今天的男孩们——我有一群朋友，我们仍然谈论发生的事情，我们在大学期间或大学毕业后发生的令人惊奇的事情。
And I wonder what young boys today are going to say.
我想知道今天的小男孩们会说什么。
"You remember 'Fortnite' game 27,363, where you were trapped in that elevator shaft, and I had to shoot you out?" "No, I don't remember that one." The virtual adventures are just not going to cut it.
“你还记得《堡垒之夜》游戏 27,363，你被困在电梯井里，我不得不把你射出去吗？” “不，我不记得那件事了。”虚拟冒险并不能解决这个问题。
Our kids need adventure.
我们的孩子需要冒险。
They need independence and adventure where they work out the conflicts themselves.
他们需要独立和冒险，自己解决冲突。
So if we do those four things, I think we can restore childhood in the real world.
因此，如果我们做到这四件事，我认为我们可以在现实世界中恢复童年。
No smartphone before high school, no social media till 16, phone-free schools, more independence, free play, and responsibility in the real world.
高中之前没有智能手机，16 岁之前没有社交媒体，学校没有手机，现实世界中更加独立、自由玩耍和责任感。
Those four things.
这四件事。
And these are things that we can all do if we work together, if we do them at the same time.
如果我们共同努力、同时做这些事情，我们都可以做到。
If you're the only family that's keeping your kid off a smartphone till high school and off of social media till 16, you're imposing a cost on your child, and she may be lonely, and she'll say, "Mom, I'm left out." Now, she might still thank you, as we saw last night.
如果你是唯一一个不让你的孩子在高中之前接触智能手机、在 16 岁之前接触社交媒体的家庭，那么你就给你的孩子增加了成本，她可能会感到孤独，她会说：“妈妈，我被排除在外了。”现在，她可能仍然感谢你，就像我们昨晚看到的那样。
One of the women said her daughter thanked her for keeping her off, but at the time, it was painful for her.
其中一名妇女说，她的女儿感谢她阻止了她，但当时，这对她来说很痛苦。
And so my hope is by spreading these norms, no parent will ever be in that position again where their kid is the only one in the class who doesn't have a smartphone at age 10.
因此，我希望通过传播这些规范，任何家长都不会再陷入这样的境地：他们的孩子是班上唯一一个 10 岁时没有智能手机的孩子。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
To have this fantastic list.
拥有这份精彩的清单。
I say fantastic because it jives with all of the neurobiology that I'm aware of and because it offers solutions.
我说太棒了，因为它与我所知道的所有神经生物学相吻合，并且因为它提供了解决方案。
It's really based on knowing what's happened and is happening with smartphone use.
它实际上是基于了解智能手机使用过程中发生的情况和正在发生的情况。
There are a bunch of don'ts, but then there's some dos, which, again, I'm not an expert in behavioral change, but I spend a fair amount of my time talking to people about what they can do for their health and wellbeing and not just the don'ts.
有很多不该做的事情，但也有一些该做的事情，再说一遍，我不是行为改变方面的专家，但我花了相当多的时间与人们谈论他们可以为自己的健康和福祉做些什么，而不仅仅是不该做的事情。
And I think it's important, as I understand, to have replacement behaviors, and also, I think people of all ages want to do something that feels good the first time and every time, and that's good for them, and then you create that reinforcement loop in a different direction.
据我所知，我认为有替代行为很重要，而且我认为所有年龄段的人都想做一些第一次和每次都感觉良好的事情，这对他们有好处，然后你在不同的方向创建强化循环。
You're offering all of that in the book and here, and it's fabulous.
你在书中和这里提供了所有这些，这太棒了。
What I wonder about, and would love to help in any way that I can with, is if you recall years ago, there was this understanding about the first six years of life being critical.
我想知道并且愿意尽我所能提供帮助的是，如果你还记得几年前，人们对生命的前六年至关重要的理解。
It was the first six years, and so parents kind of overstepped it a bit and were playing their kids Mozart all the time and things like that.
那是头六年，所以父母有点逾越了界限，一直在给孩子演奏莫扎特之类的东西。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
What a waste of time.
真是浪费时间。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But what was interesting is that they were thinking about critical periods and brain plasticity, and so as a neurobiologist who studied brain development, I was delighted.
但有趣的是，他们正在考虑关键时期和大脑可塑性，因此作为一名研究大脑发育的神经生物学家，我很高兴。
It seems to me that if there was an understanding that the biology and psychology and sociology points to the fact that there is a critical period, maybe not even a sensitive period, but a critical period in which excessive smartphone use of a particular type is actually leading to more suicides, depression, anxiety, and less learning and adaptive behavior in life.
在我看来，生物学、心理学和社会学都指出，存在一个关键时期，甚至可能不是敏感时期，而是过度使用特定类型的智能手机实际上会导致更多自杀、抑郁、焦虑以及生活中学习和适应行为减少的关键时期。
It seems to me that it should be almost like a law.
在我看来，它几乎应该像一条法律一样。
It should be implemented, certainly at the national level.
它应该得到实施，当然是在国家层面。
What sorts of barriers do you think exist to that?
您认为这存在哪些障碍？
Obviously, I'm enthusiastic in joining your effort, and I know many people listening will be as well to try and implement these four things.
显然，我很热衷于加入你们的努力，而且我知道很多倾听的人也会尝试并实施这四件事。
But what do you think it would really take to get people to take their children's brains and lives seriously?
但你认为真正需要什么才能让人们认真对待孩子的大脑和生活呢？
Because children can't be left to their own self-care to that degree.
因为不能让孩子们自己照顾到那种程度。
It's just unfair, right?
这太不公平了，对吧？
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
No, that's right.
不，没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's like telling a kid in a candy shop, like, "Hey, listen.
这就像在糖果店里告诉一个孩子，“嘿，听着。
Figure it out.
弄清楚吧。
There's nutritious food down the street." It's unfair, right?
街上有营养丰富的食物。”这不公平，对吧？
It's like a puppy trying to do the Westminster Championship.
这就像一只小狗试图参加威斯敏斯特锦标赛。
It's like, it's not going to happen.
就像，这不会发生。
But this is serious stuff.
但这是严肃的事情。
We're talking about the future not just of the United States, but of the entire species.
我们谈论的不仅仅是美国的未来，而是整个物种的未来。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So what about laws?
那么法律呢？
What about legislature?
立法机关呢？
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
How does that work?
这是如何运作的？
I don't know anything about that.
我对此一无所知。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Okay.
好的。
Sure.
当然。
Well, first, so let's note, I could be wrong about this.
好吧，首先，让我们注意，我可能是错的。
It might be that the phones aren't doing this.
手机可能没有这样做。
Now, I think the evidence is pretty good that it is, but let's suppose there's a 70% chance that I'm right.
现在，我认为证据非常充分，但我们假设我是对的有 70% 的可能性。
Let's suppose there was only a 30% chance I was right.
假设我正确的可能性只有 30%。
The consequences are so severe, we should be taking action.
后果如此严重，我们应该采取行动。
Now, what action to take?
现在，该采取什么行动？
I was over in the UK for the book about three weeks ago, and in the UK, and the rest of Europe, the first thought of everyone is ban it, ban it, ban it, government law ban.
大约三周前，我在英国看这本书，在英国和欧洲其他国家，每个人的第一个想法是禁止它，禁止它，禁止它，政府法律禁止。
And there are times when we need that.
有时我们需要这样做。
Cigarette smoking underage, just ban it.
未成年人吸烟，就禁止吧。
Like, you should not have kids smoking.
就像，你不应该让孩子吸烟。
Now, in Britain, there was a lot of consideration of should we ban the sale of smartphones to kids under 14?
现在，在英国，我们是否应该禁止向 14 岁以下的儿童销售智能手机？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
And I met with the policy unit at Number 10 Downing Street, and I said, "Now wait a second, guys.
我在唐宁街 10 号会见了政策部门，我说：“现在等一下，伙计们。
As an American, it never even occurred to me to suggest that.
作为一个美国人，我从来没有想过提出这样的建议。
You need to get norms first.
您需要首先获得规范。
If you pass laws that are out of phase with people's norms, they're going to really hate you, and they're going to resent it.
如果你通过的法律与人们的规范不相符，他们会非常讨厌你，并且会怨恨你。
So let's start with a norm change first." So I think that's really happening.
因此，让我们首先从改变规范开始。”所以我认为这确实正在发生。
So in Britain, parents are up in arms.
所以在英国，父母们都非常愤怒。
They really are changing rapidly over there.
他们那里确实正在迅速变化。
They're a couple of months ahead of us.
他们比我们早几个月。
In America, I think it's happening right now.
在美国，我认为这种情况现在正在发生。
And so if we just develop a consensus, we need to see smartphones in the hands of kids as being like cigarettes in the hands of kids.
因此，如果我们达成共识，我们需要将智能手机视为孩子手中的，就像孩子手中的香烟一样。
Like you just don't do that.
就像你不这样做一样。
You don't do that.
你不这样做。
Of course, they can be on a laptop, they can be on a computer, they can do some things on your iPhone sometimes.
当然，他们可以在笔记本电脑上，他们可以在电脑上，有时他们可以在你的 iPhone 上做一些事情。
It's not poison.
这不是毒药。
But you don't want it to be habit-forming.
但你不希望它成为习惯。
So I think that for keeping smartphones out of the hands of kids, there's no law.
所以我认为，没有法律可以阻止孩子们接触智能手机。
I don't want a law banning that, but we just need a norm.
我不想要法律禁止这样做，但我们只需要一个规范。
Now, for raising the age to 16, we can struggle to do that.
现在，为了将年龄提高到16岁，我们可以努力做到这一点。
I'm doing that with my kids.
我正在和我的孩子们一起这样做。
I'm saying no for my daughter, no Snapchat till you're 16.
我对我女儿说不，16 岁之前不要使用 Snapchat。
And she's the only one who doesn't have it.
而她是唯一一个没有这种能力的人。
It's painful for her, and she's 14.
这对她来说很痛苦，而且她才14岁。
But my hope is that no parent, again, will be in that situation, that in every school, a lot of the parents are going to say, "No social media till 16." Now, of course, the laws currently state that you have to be 13 in order to sign a contract, give away your data, and make a deal with a company without your parents' knowledge or permission.
但我希望没有一个家长会再次陷入这种情况，在每所学校，很多家长都会说，“16 岁之前禁止使用社交媒体。”当然，现在法律规定，您必须年满 13 岁才能在父母不知情或未经父母许可的情况下签署合同、泄露您的数据以及与公司达成交易。
But Congress passed this terrible law in 1998.
但国会在 1998 年通过了这项可怕的法律。
The COPPA, Child Online Privacy Protection Act.
COPPA，儿童在线隐私保护法。
It was supposed to set the age to 16, which is I think pretty reasonable.
本来应该把年龄定为16岁，我认为这很合理。
But it got pushed down to 13 with no enforcement.
但在没有强制执行的情况下，这个数字被减少到了 13 个。
The law is written such that as long as the company doesn't absolutely know that you're underage, they're fine.
法律规定，只要公司不完全知道你未成年，他们就没事。
They're not responsible.
他们不负责任。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
13.
13.
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
They're motivated.
他们很有动力。
The law motivates the companies to not know how old children are.
该法律促使公司不知道孩子的年龄。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There's barely any forebrain at 13.
13岁时几乎没有任何前脑。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
That's right.
没错。
And since you just have to be old enough to lie about your age.
因为你只需要足够大就可以谎报你的年龄。
If you're old enough to lie about your age, you can go anywhere on the internet because there's no enforcement.
如果您的年龄足以谎报自己的年龄，您可以在互联网上任何地方，因为没有强制执行。
So I'm saying let's take the age of 13, which is not enforced, let's require age verification, which is complicated, but they're working on that in Britain.
所以我想说，让我们以 13 岁为例，这并没有强制执行，我们需要年龄验证，这很复杂，但英国正在努力解决这个问题。
They're mandating that.
他们强制这样做。
It's going to happen in Britain.
这将发生在英国。
We'll work out the technical details.
我们将制定技术细节。
So mandate age verification, then raise the age to 16.
因此强制要求进行年龄验证，然后将年龄提高到 16 岁。
That's the one place where I think we really do need law, because social media is a social trap, and if half the kids are on it, there's going to be a lot of pressure on the other half to join.
我认为这就是我们确实需要法律的地方，因为社交媒体是一个社交陷阱，如果一半的孩子使用它，另一半就会面临很大的压力加入。
So we need to get that down to, like, if 5% sneak around and they find a way on, that's fine.
所以我们需要把这个问题归结为，如果 5% 的人偷偷摸摸地走来走去，然后他们找到了办法，那很好。
So that's where we definitely need law.
所以这就是我们绝对需要法律的地方。
And then the play stuff, there, we could use some laws.
然后在游戏方面，我们可以使用一些法律。
So I co-founded an organization called Let Grow, if you go to letgrow.org, with Lenore Skenazy, we advocate for returning play to children.
所以我和 Lenore Skenazy 共同创立了一个名为 Let Grow 的组织，如果你去 letgrow.org，我们提倡让孩子们回归游戏。
And one of the things we've done is we've gotten laws passed in eight states that say that if you let your child out to play, that cannot be taken as evidence of child neglect.
我们所做的事情之一是我们在八个州通过了法律，规定如果您让孩子出去玩，则不能作为忽视儿童的证据。
Whereas at present, laws are ambiguous.
而目前，法律尚不明确。
So if you send your eight-year-old out to a store, and this has happened to friends of mine, and some nosy neighbor says, "Where's your mother?
因此，如果你送你八岁的孩子去商店，而我的朋友也遇到过这种情况，一些爱管闲事的邻居会说：“你妈妈在哪儿？
Does she know you're out here?" And then they call 911.
她知道你在这里吗？”然后他们拨打了 911。
And the police come because no one has seen an eight-year-old unaccompanied since the '90s.
警察之所以来，是因为自 90 年代以来，没有人见过无人陪伴的 8 岁儿童。
So the police come, and once the police come, they're very likely to refer to Child Protective Services.
所以警察来了，一旦警察来了，他们很可能会求助于儿童保护服务机构。
And once your family is in the grip of Child Protective Services, you've got custody battles, you've got supervision, you're not allowed alone with children.
一旦你的家人受到儿童保护服务机构的控制，你就会面临监护权之争，你会受到监督，你不被允许单独与孩子在一起。
It's crazy what happens.
发生的事情太疯狂了。
So eight states have now said, "No, no more of that.
因此，现在有八个州表示：“不，不再这样了。
This is insane." So law could help to stop incentivizing helicopter parenting, to provide more spaces that are safe for kids to play in, not car zones.
这太疯狂了。”因此，法律可以帮助停止激励直升机育儿，为孩子们提供更多安全的玩耍空间，而不是汽车区。
So "The Exodus Generation," the whole fourth part of it is suggestions for governments, for tech companies, for schools, and for parents.
因此，《出埃及记的一代》的第四部分是给政府、科技公司、学校和家长的建议。
There's a lot we can do to restore a play-based childhood in the real world.
我们可以做很多事情来恢复现实世界中以游戏为基础的童年。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I realize that some of this is dependent on income for a household, et cetera, but is there any protective effect of, say, summer camp?
我意识到其中一些取决于家庭收入等，但是夏令营等活动有任何保护作用吗？
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Oh, yes.
哦，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or protective effect of even just after-school sport-
或者甚至只是课后运动的保护作用-
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
where both the kids and the parents agree, no phones on the field.
孩子和家长都同意，球场上不准使用手机。
We're not taping for every goal.
我们不会对每个进球进行录音。
I love seeing my friend's kids getting a three-pointer at a game or something like that.
我喜欢看到我朋友的孩子在比赛中投进三分球或类似的东西。
I delight in that on Instagram, and it's wild that my friends, given who I know them to be growing up, have these kids, and the stories I could tell.
我很高兴在 Instagram 上看到这些，考虑到我认识的朋友们在成长过程中拥有这些孩子，以及我可以讲述的故事，这真是太疯狂了。
But in all seriousness, it's wonderful.
但认真地说，这真是太棒了。
And yet I'm thinking they're taking a video of their kid playing the game.
但我认为他们正在拍摄孩子玩游戏的视频。
Wouldn't it be wonderful if there were no phones at after-school sports events?
如果放学后的体育赛事中没有手机该多好？
So it's a couple of hours, three times a week, or once a week even, where at least these young brains are exposed to a different kind of reinforcement learning.
因此，在几个小时、每周三次、甚至每周一次的时间里，至少这些年轻的大脑会接触到不同类型的强化学习。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
That's right.
没错。
The British have a saying, "Don't put your daughter on the stage, Mrs. Worthington," which is a line from an old Noel Coward song.
英国有句俗话，“沃辛顿夫人，不要让你的女儿登上舞台”，这是诺埃尔·考沃德一首老歌中的一句台词。
And it acknowledges that especially for girls, for girls to grow up being looked at and admired and commented on about their looks, it's just really, really bad for them.
它承认，尤其是对于女孩来说，女孩在成长过程中被人注视、钦佩和评论她们的外表，这对她们来说真的非常糟糕。
But to grow up always being photographed, everything you do and posted online is really bad for them.
但在成长过程中总是被拍照，你在网上所做的一切和发布的一切对他们来说真的很糟糕。
So yes, in response to your question, first, summer camps are magic.
所以，是的，回答你的问题，首先，夏令营很神奇。
Never send your child to a summer camp that doesn't ban phones, because this is the best chance you have for a detox.
切勿将您的孩子送到不禁止使用手机的夏令营，因为这是您排毒的最佳机会。
And I hear this story over and over again.
我一遍又一遍地听到这个故事。
My girl got an iPhone when she was 11.
我女儿 11 岁时买了一部 iPhone。
She suddenly became surly, no longer the sweet, funny child she was.
她突然变得乖戾起来，不再是那个可爱有趣的孩子了。
I sent her to summer camp the next summer, and lo and behold, the girl that comes back is my wonderful, sweet 11-year-old.
第二年夏天我送她去夏令营，你瞧，回来的女孩是我可爱、可爱的 11 岁孩子。
Her personality is back.
她的个性又回来了。
And then she gets back on her phone, and she becomes surly again.
然后她又拿起手机，又变得脾气暴躁。
So summer camps are the most powerful technique known for a detox because the kid isn't being deprived.
因此，夏令营是众所周知的最有效的排毒技术，因为孩子不会被剥夺权利。
They are in a bunk with other kids with no phones, and they're joking and talking and laughing and fighting and doing all those healthy things.
他们和其他没有手机的孩子睡在一张铺位上，他们开玩笑、说话、大笑、打架，做所有这些健康的事情。
So summer camp is amazing.
所以夏令营是很棒的。
The other thing that the evidence shows is that team sports and religion, those two things are very, very protective.
证据表明的另一件事是团队运动和宗教，这两件事非常非常有保护作用。
So I would strongly urge people to encourage their kids to play team sports.
因此，我强烈敦促人们鼓励他们的孩子参加团队运动。
My kids run track, which is great, but team sports force more cooperation, so there's some evidence that team sports are even better for their mental health than individual sports.
我的孩子们参加田径运动，这很棒，但团队运动需要更多的合作，因此有一些证据表明团队运动比个人运动更有益于他们的心理健康。
You don't want super-duper, over-supervised, high-pressure sports leagues.
你不想要超级骗子、过度监管、高压的体育联盟。
I mean, that's better than nothing.
我的意思是，那总比什么都没有好。
But ideally, the more they play games that are more intramural, informal, the kids are enforcing the rules.
但理想情况下，孩子们玩的校内、非正式游戏越多，孩子们就越能遵守规则。
All of that would be better.
所有这些都会更好。
Our kids are not rooted in communities anymore, but sports and religion are two things that do that.
我们的孩子不再扎根于社区，但体育和宗教是做到这一点的两件事。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What about music?
音乐呢？
I did an episode on music and the brain, and one of the more thrilling and interesting parts to me was, and I have no musical talent whatsoever, singing or instrumental or otherwise, I love listening to music however, was that kids that grow up playing an instrument, especially cooperatively-
我做了一集关于音乐和大脑的节目，对我来说更令人兴奋和有趣的部分是，我没有任何音乐天赋，唱歌或器乐或其他方面，我喜欢听音乐，但是，孩子们从小就演奏乐器，尤其是合作性的——
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
with other people in a band-
与乐队中的其他人一起-
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
a duet or a quartet, or a band, or orchestra, or a marching band, there's some very impressive data in terms of potential for additional neuroplasticity.
二重奏或四重奏，或乐队，或管弦乐队，或军乐队，在额外神经可塑性的潜力方面有一些非常令人印象深刻的数据。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In fact, the brainwide networks, the sort of patterns of connectivity are much more broad in kids that learned an instrument and played it cooperatively-
事实上，对于学习乐器并合作演奏的孩子来说，全脑网络、这种连接模式要广泛得多——
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Oh, interesting
哦，有趣
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
than those that try and learn an instrument later in life, although there's still advantages to that.
与那些在晚年尝试学习乐器的人相比，尽管这仍然有优势。
So I wonder if that could be added to the list.
所以我想知道是否可以将其添加到列表中。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Yes.
是的。
Playing in a band or singing in a choir, I think definitely should be.
我认为绝对应该在乐队中演奏或在合唱团中唱歌。
For a while, I was really interested in synchrony, and synchrony has all these really powerful effects.
有一段时间，我对同步非常感兴趣，而同步具有所有这些非常强大的效果。
There's a wonderful book called "Keeping Together in Time" by William McNeill.
威廉·麦克尼尔有一本很棒的书，名叫《及时行乐》。
Either he signed up or he was drafted into World War II, training at a camp in Texas.
他要么报名参加，要么被征召参加第二次世界大战，在德克萨斯州的一个营地接受训练。
They're marching up and down with wooden guns because they don't have real guns.
他们拿着木枪来回走动，因为他们没有真枪。
And at first, it seemed stupid to him, but after a few days, his unit gets it.
起初，他觉得这很愚蠢，但几天后，他的单位明白了。
And they're like a unit.
他们就像一个整体。
They're like a centipede.
他们就像蜈蚣一样。
They're in perfect...
他们在完美...
And it was like a loss of self.
这就像失去了自我。
It was ecstatic.
这是欣喜若狂。
And so he goes off to World War II.
于是他就去了第二次世界大战。
He comes back and writes about men in battle.
他回来后写了关于战争中的人的文章。
He writes...
他写...
Oh, that's a different book title.
哦，那是不同的书名。
But those sorts of being in sync, those experiences, we are an ultrasocial species.
但那些同步、那些经历，我们是一个超社会物种。
Much more social than dogs or chimpanzees.
比狗或黑猩猩更具社交性。
We have this ability to keep together in time and do things synchronously.
我们有能力及时保持一致并同步做事。
And all around the world, that's what rituals used to do.
在世界各地，仪式过去都是这么做的。
It's thrilling.
太刺激了。
And so these self-transcendent experiences that you get from singing in a choir, from playing in a band, I don't have much talent either, but I did play in an informal rock band when I was at UVA.
因此，这些自我超越的经历是你从在合唱团唱歌、在乐队演奏中获得的，我也没有太多的天赋，但当我在 UVA 时，我确实在一个非正式的摇滚乐队中演奏过。
We called ourselves Pavlov's Dogs.
我们称自己为巴甫洛夫的狗。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's great.
太好了。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
We were all in the psych department.
我们都在心理科。
But the first time we got it, and we were all really in sync, it was totally thrilling.
但当我们第一次得到它时，我们都非常同步，这真是太令人兴奋了。
So yeah, the more you give your kid...
所以，是的，你给孩子的越多......
I have a whole section, actually, in chapter two of the book on synchrony and attunement.
事实上，我在书的第二章中有一个完整的章节是关于同步和协调的。
We need to be in sync, and that's why face-to-face interaction is so important, whereas when you're communicating on Instagram or any social media, it's asynchronous.
我们需要保持同步，这就是为什么面对面的互动如此重要，而当你在 Instagram 或任何社交媒体上交流时，它是异步的。
You don't have the automatic attunement.
你没有自动调谐。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Can I get a little new agey, speculative?
我可以来点新时代的推测吗？
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
All right.
好吧。
Let's go.
我们走吧。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I have a question.
我有一个问题。
So I've heard you and others say that kids, and probably adults nowadays, are not familiar with what it is to be bored.
所以我听你和其他人说，现在的孩子，可能还有成年人，都不熟悉什么是无聊。
There's always an input.
总有一个输入。
Movie, on social media, YouTube.
电影、社交媒体、YouTube。
There's always words streaming at us in audio or written.
总有一些话语以音频或书面形式向我们涌来。
There's this concept that I love from the world of mindfulness, which used to be considered new agey, but now I think every academic campus has at least a few grants focused on meditation and its benefits and respiration breathwork and its benefits.
我喜欢正念世界中的这个概念，它曾经被认为是新时代，但现在我认为每个学术校园都至少有一些拨款专注于冥想及其好处以及呼吸呼吸及其好处。
So we've come a long way.
所以我们已经走了很长一段路。
But there's this concept of wordlessness, of the importance of being in states of wordlessness where we're not reading, we're not thinking in complete sentences, we're not taking in sensory information.
但是有一个无言的概念，处于无言状态的重要性，在这种状态下，我们不阅读，我们不思考完整的句子，我们不接受感官信息。
And we, under those conditions, are able to actually register how we feel about things, that we become better tuned to sense our environment and input when it comes.
在这些条件下，我们能够真正记录我们对事物的感受，从而更好地适应我们的环境和输入。
And I wonder, because my experience of social media has been, whether or not kids are on Instagram, Snapchat, et cetera, and they're doing it out of, whatever, compulsion, habit, addiction, whatever you want to call it, but I'm not sure it feels good to them.
我想知道，因为我对社交媒体的体验是，无论孩子们是否使用 Instagram、Snapchat 等，他们这样做是出于强迫、习惯、成瘾，无论你想怎么称呼它，但我不确定这对他们来说是否感觉良好。
I'm not sure it does.
我不确定是否如此。
I'm not sure it's like the ice cream that tastes delicious.
我不确定它是否像冰淇淋一样美味。
I think it might start that way, and occasionally there are jackpots, right?
我想可能就是这样开始的，偶尔也会有大奖吧？
But that in large part, adults, but since we're talking about kids, let's talk about kids, in this very critical, sensitive period of life are not feeling good, and they might not even know they're not feeling good.
但在很大程度上，成年人，但既然我们谈论的是孩子，那么让我们谈谈孩子，在生命的这个非常关键、敏感的时期，他们感觉不好，他们甚至可能不知道自己感觉不好。
They're just compulsively, and there I'm using the term loosely, not clinically, compulsively engaging.
他们只是强迫性的，我在这里宽松地使用这个词，而不是临床上的强迫性参与。
And so I wonder whether or not there's some benefit to kids not just being bored for experiencing boredom's sake, but learning to actually be a better sensor of what they like and don't like.
所以我想知道，孩子们不仅因为经历无聊而感到无聊，而且学会更好地感知自己喜欢什么和不喜欢什么，这是否有一些好处。
Because when I talk to my niece or I talk to other young people now, they seem to be becoming increasingly aware of how much some of the online stuff sucks.
因为当我现在和我的侄女或其他年轻人交谈时，他们似乎越来越意识到一些网上的东西有多么糟糕。
That's the language.
这就是语言。
They're not like, "Oh, it's awesome.
他们不会说，“哦，这太棒了。
Don't take it away from me." They're like, "I don't want to miss out," but it's also painful to them.
不要把它从我身边夺走。”他们会说，“我不想错过”，但这对他们来说也很痛苦。
It's like they're drinking from a fire hose of nails, and then every once in a while, there's something that tastes good.
就像他们从钉子的消防水管里喝水一样，然后每隔一段时间，就会有一些味道不错的东西。
It's not like they're like, "This is so cool, and that's so cool." But of course, if you give them a really cool video of an animal thing or a social dynamics thing or a war game or whatever, they'll get excited.
他们并不是说“这太酷了，那太酷了”。但当然，如果你给他们一段非常酷的动物视频、社会动态视频、战争游戏视频或其他什么视频，他们会很兴奋。
But I don't get the impression that they're like, "This is awesome." It's more like, "This has me by the short hairs.
但我并不觉得他们会说“这太棒了”。更像是，“这就是我的短发。
It's got me scruffed, and I'm just doing it, and I don't know how to stop."
这让我受够了，我只是这么做，而且不知道如何停止。”
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
I'm going to stop you there.
我会在那里阻止你。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And that's certainly the way, sorry, that boys reach out, guys, young guys typically reach out about their porn addictions.
抱歉，这当然是男孩们伸出援手的方式，伙计们，年轻人通常会伸出援手来表达他们的色情成瘾。
I hear about this thousands of messages, "Help me get over this." So I refer them to our episode on addiction by Dr. Anna Lembke from Stanford.
我听到了数千条这样的消息：“帮助我克服这个问题。”所以我向他们推荐斯坦福大学安娜·莱姆克博士关于成瘾的一集。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Oh, I love her, yeah.
哦，我爱她，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, she's amazing.
是的，她太棒了。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Oh, yeah, listen to that episode.
哦，是的，听听那一集。
Great episode, yeah.
很棒的一集，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, she's spectacular.
是的，她很壮观。
Or it's just they're desperate.
或者只是他们感到绝望。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They're desperate.
他们很绝望。
So I don't see it as all pleasure.
所以我并不认为这一切都是快乐。
I see it as mostly pain.
我认为这主要是痛苦。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
No, that's right.
不，没错。
That's right.
没错。
So there's a lot going on here.
所以这里发生了很多事情。
For some of them, they are addicted, and they feel bad for the reasons you were talking about, dopamine overshoot or they feel bad when they're not doing the addictive activity, so they are compulsively using it.
对于他们中的一些人来说，他们上瘾了，他们因为你所说的原因而感觉不好，多巴胺超调，或者当他们不做成瘾活动时他们感觉不好，所以他们强迫性地使用它。
Just like a gambler.
就像一个赌徒一样。
If you're addicted to slot machines, your life sucks.
如果你沉迷于老虎机，你的生活就会一团糟。
You've spent all your family's money.
你把家里的钱都花光了。
You're ashamed of what happened.
你对所发生的事情感到羞耻。
You feel terrible.
你感觉很糟糕。
Oh, but if I just get back into the zone on the slot machine, I feel good for that two or three hours.
哦，但是如果我回到老虎机上的区域，那两三个小时我感觉很好。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, that's the most dangerous addiction because as it's been described to me, I'm fortunately not a gambling addict.
是的，这是最危险的成瘾，因为正如向我描述的那样，幸运的是我不是赌博成瘾者。
The gambler really does believe that the next one could change everything.
赌徒确实相信下一场比赛可以改变一切。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Right.
对。
It's going to cause motivated reasoning.
这将引起动机推理。
It's going to cause hopefulness that is dashed.
这将导致希望破灭。
So for some of them, it is a kind of self-medication.
所以对于他们中的一些人来说，这是一种自我治疗。
As soon as the boys move their social lives onto video games and porn, and the girls move their social lives onto social media, both sexes got really lonely.
一旦男孩将他们的社交生活转移到电子游戏和色情片上，而女孩将他们的社交生活转移到社交媒体上，两性都会变得非常孤独。
They're getting lots of cheap and easy stimulation, but it's not satisfying.
他们得到了很多廉价且容易的刺激，但这并不令人满意。
So what do they do now that they're lonely and anxious?
那么，当他们感到孤独和焦虑时，他们会做什么呢？
Well, sometimes they do more of it.
好吧，有时他们会做得更多。
So some of it is driven by that feedback cycle that they're now uncomfortable, so they need more of it.
因此，其中一些是由反馈周期驱动的，他们现在感到不舒服，所以他们需要更多。
But the other part is the compulsion to consume because everyone else is and they have to keep up.
但另一部分是消费冲动，因为其他人都在消费，而且他们必须跟上。
And so my students at NYU, I ask them, "Okay, some of you are spending four, five, six hours a day on social media.
因此，我问纽约大学的学生，“好吧，你们中的一些人每天在社交媒体上花费四、五个、六个小时。
Why don't you quit?" "Oh, well, I can't because I have to know what everyone's talking about.
你为什么不退出呢？” “哦，好吧，我不能，因为我必须知道每个人都在谈论什么。
I have to see the latest video.
我得看最新的视频。
I have to keep up with it." And since I can't deal with my email and my texts, like those two combined, that's more than I can handle in a day.
我必须跟上它。”由于我无法处理我的电子邮件和短信，就像这两者的总和，这超出了我一天的处理能力。
I can't stand it.
我受不了了。
I can't imagine having five platforms in addition.
我无法想象另外还有五个平台。
And most, I don't know the exact number, but very few of my students are on a single platform.
大多数情况下，我不知道确切的数字，但我的学生中很少有人使用单一平台。
Most of them are on two or three regularly, plus email and texting and Snapchat.
他们中的大多数人会定期使用两到三个，另外还包括电子邮件、短信和 Snapchat。
So it is like imagine food is great, but imagine always having to eat.
所以这就像想象食物很棒，但想象总是要吃东西。
You have to always be eating.
你必须一直在吃东西。
Our system can't handle that.
我们的系统无法处理这个问题。
Imagine a plant always in a shower.
想象一株植物总是在淋浴中。
No, you need times of taking in and times of digesting or processing.
不，你需要时间的吸收和时间的消化或处理。
One of the most valuable, I'll tell you two of the most valuable exercises that we do in my flourishing class at NYU.
最有价值的练习之一，我将告诉你我们在纽约大学蓬勃发展的课堂上所做的两个最有价值的练习。
The first is a prerequisite to everything else is they have to regain control of their attention.
第一个是其他一切的先决条件是他们必须重新控制自己的注意力。
And once they understand that they've given away almost all of their attention, any moment that isn't taken up by a teacher or something, it's the phone for a lot of them because there's so much to process.
一旦他们明白自己已经放弃了几乎所有的注意力，任何没有被老师或其他事情占据的时刻，对于他们中的很多人来说，手机就是手机，因为有太多的事情需要处理。
They have so many direct messages, so many group texts.
他们有如此多的直接消息，如此多的群组短信。
They have to always be processing, or they feel like they're being left behind, they're not participating.
他们必须一直在处理，否则他们会觉得自己被抛在后面，他们没有参与。
So I make them see you've got to regain control of your attention.
所以我让他们知道你必须重新控制自己的注意力。
You've got to shut off almost all notifications.
您必须关闭几乎所有通知。
You leave on Uber because you want Uber to interrupt you to say the car is three minutes away.
您选择 Uber 离开，因为您希望 Uber 打断您，告诉您汽车距离您还有 3 分钟路程。
That's good.
那很好。
But how many other companies is it that important that they interrupt you?
但还有多少其他公司对他们的打扰如此重要呢？
Very, very few.
非常非常少。
So shut off almost all your notifications.
所以关闭几乎所有的通知。
Get social media off your phone.
让社交媒体远离你的手机。
If you need to use it, you can use it on your computer, but don't always have it set.
如果需要使用它，可以在计算机上使用它，但不必总是进行设置。
At NYU, in any elevator, as students get on the elevator, the phone comes out because that's like 30 seconds, and it's awkward to take the phone out, scroll.
在纽约大学，在任何电梯里，当学生上电梯时，手机就会出来，因为大约需要 30 秒，而且把手机拿出来滚动很尴尬。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I would argue the professors, too.
我也会争论教授们。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Yeah, that's true.
是的，确实如此。
We do that, too.
我们也这样做。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, not you.
不，不是你。
I'm not going to-
我不会-
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
But less so
但不太如此
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
spend time with you in an elevator yet, but-
还在电梯里和你共度时光，但是——
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
No, we do.
不，我们愿意。
But it's less.
但还是比较少。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is that right?
是这样吗？
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
And then the other one that I did that is really memorable, and I talk about this in the book, is an awe walk.
然后我所做的另一件事真的令人难忘，我在书中谈到了这一点，那就是一次令人敬畏的步行。
And I got this idea.
我得到了这个想法。
My friend Dacher Keltner, he and I did research on awe long ago, and he really continued it.
我的朋友达彻·凯尔特纳（Dacher Keltner），他和我很久以前就对敬畏进行了研究，他确实继续了这一研究。
He wrote this amazing book called "Awe." And there was a great episode, if you just Google Keltner and Tippett.
他写了这本令人惊叹的书，名为《敬畏》。如果你谷歌一下凯尔特纳和蒂皮特，就会发现这一集很棒。
So with Krista Tippett, he did this great discussion.
因此，他与克里斯塔·蒂皮特进行了这次精彩的讨论。
He talks about how he used awe walks to help him process his brother's early death from cancer.
他讲述了他如何通过敬畏行走来帮助他应对弟弟因癌症早逝的情况。
And just walking in a beautiful environment, walk a little more slowly than usual.
而且只是在优美的环境中行走，走得比平时慢一点。
Don't have anything in your ears.
耳朵里不要有任何东西。
Don't be listening to music.
不要听音乐。
Don't even bring your phone and just notice.
甚至不用带手机，只需注意即可。
And it's magical.
这很神奇。
It's amazing what happens when you do that.
当你这样做时会发生令人惊奇的事情。
And for a lot of my students, they've never done that because they have to take in so much stuff.
对于我的很多学生来说，他们从来没有这样做过，因为他们必须接受太多的东西。
If I'm going from point A to point B, of course I'm going to be listening to a podcast or scrolling on my phone while I'm walking.
如果我要从 A 点前往 B 点，我当然会边走边听播客或滚动手机。
And a lot of them, they really had these transformative experiences.
他们中的很多人确实经历过这些变革性的经历。
We're right on Washington Square Park at NYU.
我们就在纽约大学华盛顿广场公园。
We're built around Washington Square Park, which is a gorgeous park.
我们围绕华盛顿广场公园而建，这是一个美丽的公园。
It's really one of the most beautiful in America.
它确实是美国最美丽的地方之一。
Certainly, most beautiful urban parks, I'd say.
当然，我想说的是最美丽的城市公园。
And the students who did their all walk through the park, a lot of them had these just amazing experiences.
那些竭尽全力穿过公园的学生，他们中的很多人都有过这些令人惊奇的经历。
It's almost like their heart is opening.
就好像他们的心正在敞开。
They feel more love for people.
他们对人有更多的爱。
Their anxiety goes down.
他们的焦虑感下降了。
And so I did that myself.
所以我自己就这么做了。
When I assigned it, I did it too, and I had that sort of experience.
我布置的时候我也做了，也有这样的经历。
So now, I love my AirPods.
所以现在，我喜欢我的 AirPods。
They're amazingly convenient.
它们非常方便。
But I listen to them a lot less now.
但我现在听他们的声音少了很多。
Like when I'm walking in New York City, I often just nothing, just look, process, think.
就像当我在纽约散步时，我经常什么都不做，只是看、处理、思考。
So yes, I think young people are taking in way too much stuff.
所以，是的，我认为年轻人吸收了太多东西。
Total quantity of bytes is just 10 times what it should be, and they don't have time to process.
总字节数只是应有字节数的 10 倍，而且他们没有时间处理。
They don't have time to develop an interior life to think things through.
他们没有时间培养内心生活来思考问题。
So we just got to cut it way back.
所以我们只能把它削减很多。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
If I step back from everything that you've said thus far and is in your book, it seems as if until 2012 or so, what was rewarded in youth set us up for a more adaptive adulthood.
如果我退一步从你迄今为止所说的以及你书中所说的一切来看，似乎直到 2012 年左右，青年时期所获得的回报才让我们为成年后的适应性更强做好了准备。
But now everything that's being rewarded in youth, except from schools and teachers and parents, but what's being rewarded on a moment-to-moment basis for the majority of the waking life of these young people is maladaptive.
但现在，除了学校、老师和家长之外，年轻人所得到的一切奖励，但这些年轻人大多数醒着的生活中每时每刻所得到的奖励都是适应不良的。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Yeah, that's right.
是的，没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I mean, it's so stark.
我的意思是，这太明显了。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
That's right.
没错。
Think about it this way.
这样想吧。
Imagine that your children are having a life out in the real world.
想象一下您的孩子在现实世界中过着美好的生活。
They're having adventures, they're doing things, they're building forts in the forest, they're doing all sorts of things.
他们在冒险，他们在做事，他们在森林里建造堡垒，他们在做各种各样的事情。
And then one day, a casino opens up nearby, and it welcomes all the kids, and that's where they spend all their time is in a casino.
然后有一天，附近开了一家赌场，欢迎所有的孩子，他们所有的时间都在赌场里度过。
And they're in the care of a company that is trying to extract as much money as it can from them, and that's what they do eight or 10 hours a day.
他们受到一家公司的照顾，该公司试图从他们身上榨取尽可能多的钱，而这就是他们每天八到十个小时所做的事情。
It's an abomination to think that a casino could own our children's childhood.
认为赌场可以拥有我们孩子的童年真是令人厌恶。
What if it wasn't a casino?
如果不是赌场呢？
What if it was a brothel for the boys would be more of interest, let's say.
比方说，如果这是男孩的妓院会更有趣。
Again, inconceivable that we would let that happen.
再次强调，我们会让这种事发生是不可想象的。
What we've done is we've said, well, what if it's Snapchat?
我们所做的就是说，如果是 Snapchat 呢？
What if it's Instagram?
如果是 Instagram 呢？
What if it's Facebook?
如果是脸书怎么办？
Well, not so much Facebook.
好吧，Facebook 就没有那么多了。
What if it's TikTok?
如果是抖音怎么办？
These companies, these are some of the largest and most powerful companies in the world.
这些公司是世界上最大、最有实力的一些公司。
They essentially own our children's childhood.
他们基本上拥有我们孩子的童年。
This is where childhood is taking place on a few giant for-profit platforms that use an advertising-based business model, so they are motivated, like the casino, to keep them in.
这就是一些大型营利性平台上的童年发生的地方，这些平台使用基于广告的商业模式，因此他们像赌场一样有动力将他们留在其中。
Don't have a clock.
没有时钟。
Don't let them see what time it is.
不要让他们看到现在几点了。
Keep them in.
把他们留在里面。
Don't let them click over to a link to another site.
不要让他们点击到另一个网站的链接。
Keep them in.
把他们留在里面。
We somehow have ceded our children's childhood to giant companies that have shown that they don't really care about our kids' welfare.
我们以某种方式将孩子的童年拱手让给了大公司，这些公司表明他们并不真正关心我们孩子的福利。
They care much more about profitability, and they care about their customers, who are the advertisers.
他们更关心盈利能力，也关心他们的客户，即广告商。
And these companies have been granted a special writ from the king.
这些公司还获得了国王的特别令状。
Congress said in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, in 1996, I think it was, Congress said, "Oh, and nobody can sue you.
国会在 1996 年《通信规范法案》第 230 条中表示，我认为是的，国会说，“哦，没有人可以起诉你。
Nobody can sue you for what you show to their kids." There was a reason for that, that you don't want AOL to be responsible for everything anyone posts.
没有人可以因为你向他们的孩子展示的内容而起诉你。”这是有原因的，您不希望 AOL 对任何人发布的所有内容负责。
But it's been so broadly interpreted that so far, any attempt to regulate social media or any attempt to sue them is seen as like, nope.
但它的解释如此广泛，以至于到目前为止，任何监管社交媒体的尝试或任何起诉它们的尝试都被视为“不”。
So it's just we somehow slipped into this, and once you see it that way, that it's as though our kids are being raised in Harrah's Casino, like no, we've got to stop this.
所以只是我们不知何故陷入了这种情况，一旦你这样看，就好像我们的孩子是在哈拉斯赌场长大的，不，我们必须阻止这种情况。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Last year, I had the opportunity to speak to some of the groups at these companies that are assigned to controlling the well-being of the young people that use their platforms.
去年，我有机会与这些公司的一些团队交谈，这些团队负责控制使用其平台的年轻人的福祉。
And the major emphasis was on the type of content.
主要强调的是内容的类型。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So protecting them against child predators, protecting them against pornography.
因此，保护他们免受儿童掠夺者的侵害，保护他们免受色情制品的侵害。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Important story, yeah.
重要的故事，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But as you recall, at the beginning of the conversation, we broke things down into variables of time, specific content, dynamics, and maybe the visual interface itself.
但正如你所记得的，在对话开始时，我们将事情分解为时间变量、具体内容、动态，也许还有视觉界面本身。
I think for sake of today's discussion, the visual interface is probably the least interesting, but I can just tell you, looking at things up close, a lot not good.
我认为就今天的讨论而言，视觉界面可能是最无趣的，但我可以告诉你，仔细观察，很多都不好。
The eyeball lengthens, you become nearsighted, which is why spending two hours outside, even if on a tablet, has been shown to offset myopia-
眼球变长，你就会变得近视，这就是为什么在外面呆两个小时，即使是在平板电脑上，也被证明可以抵消近视——
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Oh, wow
哦，哇
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in thousands of evil children.
在数以千计的邪恶儿童中。
Anyway, there's that piece.
无论如何，有那一块。
But the time piece is interesting, right?
但时间片很有趣，对吧？
Maybe limiting the total amount of time on social media.
也许限制使用社交媒体的总时间。
Obviously, the content issue is it only takes one exposure to a video of the sort that you described, the gauntlet.
显然，内容问题是您所描述的那种视频只需要一次曝光，即挑战。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I never want to see it.
我永远不想看到它。
Whatever has to be done to my phone so that I never see it, please let me know.
无论需要对我的手机采取什么措施才能让我看不到它，请告诉我。
But it just seems as if this has been allowed to-- It's almost like an IV drip of glucose or something happening in the background.
但这似乎已经被允许——这几乎就像静脉滴注葡萄糖或背景中发生的事情一样。
We're saying, "Okay, just stay rigged up to the glucose drip," and then we wonder why we end up with, let's just say, cognitively obese children.
我们说，“好吧，继续注射葡萄糖”，然后我们想知道为什么我们最终会生出认知肥胖的孩子。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
That's right.
这是正确的。
Whenever there's new media, the public's emphasis is always on the content.
每当新媒体出现时，公众的重点总是集中在内容上。
And so with television, the emphasis was, well, violence on TV, is this going to make them violent?
因此，对于电视来说，重点是电视上的暴力，这会让他们变得暴力吗？
And it turns out, not really.
事实证明，事实并非如此。
Watching violence on TV doesn't really make you violent.
在电视上观看暴力行为并不会让你真正变得暴力。
And video games, these violent video games, these first-person shooter games, are these going to make our kids into killers?
电子游戏，这些暴力电子游戏，这些第一人称射击游戏，这些会让我们的孩子成为杀手吗？
And there was a lot of research on that.
这方面有很多研究。
It looks like no, it doesn't really do that.
看起来好像没有，实际上并没有这样做。
And so many researchers then say, "See?
很多研究人员然后说：“看到了吗？
It's just a moral panic.
这只是一种道德恐慌。
It's okay." But that's focusing on the content.
没关系。”但这主要集中在内容上。
And this was the great lesson from Marshall McLuhan and Neil Postman and all these great media theorists in the 20th century.
这是马歇尔·麦克卢汉和尼尔·波兹曼以及所有 20 世纪伟大的媒体理论家给我们的重要教训。
McLuhan said the medium is the message.
麦克卢汉说媒介就是信息。
Don't focus so much on the content of television.
不要太关注电视内容。
Focus on the transformation of human life.
关注人类生活的转变。
When the television becomes the family hearth and people sit around watching it.
当电视成为家庭壁炉，人们围坐在一起看电视时。
Now, from our vantage point today, that's pretty darn social.
现在，从我们今天的角度来看，这真是太社交了。
They're sitting with their family members together, having an experience.
他们和家人坐在一起，享受着一种体验。
But McLuhan's point was that's the transformative thing, what the technology does.
但麦克卢汉的观点是，技术的作用就是变革。
It's not the content.
这不是内容。
And so in the same way, a life on social media in some ways is like television.
同样，社交媒体上的生活在某些方面就像电视一样。
You're watching stuff, but it's much more behaviorist.
你正在看一些东西，但它更像是行为主义的。
With television, you didn't have the constant, I do something, I'm rewarded.
对于电视来说，你没有恒定的，我做了一些事情，我得到了回报。
I do something, I'm rewarded.
我做了一件事，我得到了回报。
So social media is much, much more addictive than television ever was.
因此，社交媒体比电视更容易让人上瘾。
That's one aspect of the-- Television's not performative It doesn't make you live your life in front of a camera.
这是电视的一个方面——电视不是表演性的，它不会让你在镜头前过你的生活。
You're not in front of a camera.
你不在镜头前。
You're a passive recipient.
你是一个被动的接受者。
Whereas social media puts our kids in front of a camera.
而社交媒体将我们的孩子放在镜头前。
So in all these ways, we get distracted, and this is the way, in those Senate hearings, it was all focused on content.
因此，在所有这些方面，我们都分心了，这就是参议院听证会的方式，一切都集中在内容上。
Can't we reduce the number of beheading videos and the child pornography?
难道我们不能减少斩首视频和儿童色情内容的数量吗？
Suppose we-- Can't we reduce that by 90%?
假设我们——我们不能将其减少 90% 吗？
Wouldn't that be great?
那不是很好吗？
"Senator, we have the world-leading technology in doing this." Yes, that would be nice for our kids to see less hardcore porn and less violent videos.
“参议员，我们在这方面拥有世界领先的技术。”是的，如果我们的孩子能少看一些硬核色情片和暴力视频，那就太好了。
That'd be nice.
那就太好了。
But if we could make Instagram just be happy girls living beautiful lives, and our daughters were to watch eight hours a day of this, is that good for them?
但如果我们能让 Instagram 成为快乐的女孩，过着美好的生活，而我们的女儿每天观看八小时，这对她们有好处吗？
Hell, no. So it is important to clean up the content, but for kids going through puberty, I think the only real answer is just delay.
天啊，不。所以清理内容很重要，但对于正在经历青春期的孩子来说，我认为唯一真正的答案就是延迟。
Just don't let them do that.
只是不要让他们这样做。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
How much of the issue here is modeling of what adults are doing, and how terrible or good are adults at modulating their behavior?
这里的问题有多少是对成年人正在做什么的建模，以及成年人在调节自己的行为方面有多糟糕或有多好？
I say modulating because I see a lot of parents videotaping everything that they're-- On the phone all the time, in line at the store while their kids are around.
我说调节是因为我看到很多父母录下他们所做的一切——一直打电话，在商店排队，而他们的孩子在身边。
And one of the reasons I think parents like devices so much is that it's a terrific low-cost, zero-cost babysitter.
我认为父母如此喜欢设备的原因之一是它是一个非常棒的低成本、零成本的保姆。
It allows them to then go be on their phones or do other things.
它允许他们继续使用手机或做其他事情。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So young children are sometimes copying their parents.
所以年幼的孩子有时会模仿他们的父母。
Young children are looking for things to copy.
年幼的孩子正在寻找可以复制的东西。
And so I've got some slides in my regular book lecture of toy iPhones that we give to toddlers so that they can be just like Mommy and Daddy.
因此，我在我的定期书籍讲座中添加了一些幻灯片，供幼儿使用玩具 iPhone，以便他们可以像妈妈和爸爸一样。
For little kids, I think it might matter.
对于小孩子来说，我认为这可能很重要。
For teenagers, I'm very often asked that question because, and I think it's because parents, they feel a little guilty, like they know that they're modeling bad behavior and they're worried, like, "Is this setting up my kid for doing that?" And I can't say for sure, but my intuition as a social psychologist is not really, not very much.
对于青少年来说，我经常被问到这个问题，因为我认为这是因为父母感到有点内疚，就像他们知道自己正在模仿不良行为一样，他们担心，“这是在陷害我的孩子这样做吗？”我不能肯定地说，但我作为一名社会心理学家的直觉并不是真的，不是很多。
And the reason is because while your kids once looked up to you and they once copied you, by the time they're 12, 13, 14, if I start reading The Economist magazine, or if I start knitting or whatever, that's not going to make my 14-year-old daughter want to do those things because I'm doing them.
原因是，虽然你的孩子曾经尊敬你，他们曾经模仿过你，但当他们 12、13、14 岁的时候，如果我开始阅读《经济学人》杂志，或者如果我开始编织或其他什么，那不会让我 14 岁的女儿想做这些事情，因为我正在做这些事情。
She is completely focused on what her peer group thinks of her.
她完全关注同龄人对她的看法。
Of course she is.
她当然是。
That's the nature of teenage, where they're moving away from the family, and they're trying to make their way on their own in a peer group.
这就是青少年的天性，他们正在远离家庭，并试图在同龄人群体中独立发展。
Lisa Damour is great on these issues.
丽莎·达穆尔在这些问题上表现出色。
It'll be nice if parents could improve their phone habits.
如果父母能改善他们使用手机的习惯那就太好了。
And boy, phones at the table, that's an important place.
天哪，电话放在桌子上，那是一个重要的地方。
That is a very, very important place.
这是一个非常非常重要的地方。
Get across the idea that when we're eating, we're with each other.
传达这样的想法：当我们吃饭时，我们是在一起的。
We're looking at each other, and we're tasting our food.
我们互相看着对方，品尝着我们的食物。
We're experiencing the food.
我们正在体验食物。
So actually there, modeling collective behaviors like a meal, I think that is actually very, very valuable.
所以实际上，模拟集体行为，比如一顿饭，我认为这实际上非常非常有价值。
But if it's just that you're often multitasking, you're often on your phone, yeah, it'd be nice if you didn't, but that's not going to push your kid over into phone addiction.
但如果只是因为你经常同时处理多项任务，你经常使用手机，是的，如果你不这样做就好了，但这不会让你的孩子沉迷于手机。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So the list of four things that you provided are terrific.
所以你提供的四件事清单非常棒。
They are somewhat enforcement-focused.
他们在某种程度上注重执法。
As I recall, maybe this is not true, but as I recall, one of the ways that media was effective in getting kids to stop smoking was to pit them against these wealthy old white men who were in rooms filled with smoke, writhing their hands together, cackling about the amount of money they were making, stealing the health of young people.
我记得，也许这不是真的，但我记得，媒体让孩子们戒烟的有效方法之一就是让他们与那些富有的白人老者进行对抗，这些白人在充满烟雾的房间里扭动着双手，咯咯地笑着说他们赚了多少钱，偷走了年轻人的健康。
Whereas telling teenagers that smoking was bad for them did very little.
然而告诉青少年吸烟对他们有害却收效甚微。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So is there a way to create a rebellion of sorts against the smartphone?
那么有没有办法对智能手机发起某种反叛呢？
Because kids love to rebel.
因为孩子们喜欢叛逆。
Teens love to rebel.
青少年喜欢叛逆。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
First of all, they don't anymore.
首先，他们不再这样做了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, no. Really?
哦，不。真的吗？
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Well, they're just much more passive.
好吧，他们只是更加被动。
I don't think they're authority-focused.
我不认为他们注重权威。
They're not as rebellious as they used to be.
他们不再像以前那样叛逆。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's disappointing.
真令人失望。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Now, of course, now we'd have to pit them against a group of young white men who are owning the social media companies, I suppose.
当然，现在我们必须让他们与一群拥有社交媒体公司的年轻白人竞争，我想。
But this addiction is very different from tobacco or anything else.
但这种成瘾与烟草或其他任何东西都非常不同。
Tobacco is biologically addictive.
烟草具有生物成瘾性。
And you can't get an entire high school addicted biologically.
而且你不可能让整个高中都对生物学上瘾。
At least it didn't happen.
至少它没有发生。
And the peak year of smoking was 1997.
吸烟的高峰年是1997年。
Thirty-seven percent of American high school students smoked.
百分之三十七的美国高中生吸烟。
Two-thirds didn't.
三分之二的人没有。
But with social media, you couldn't have that.
但对于社交媒体，你就无法做到这一点。
You couldn't have just a third.
你不能只有三分之一。
It's either none or everybody, and it's everybody.
要么没有人，要么所有人，而且是所有人。
And it happens in middle school.
这发生在中学。
So the dynamics of a social media addiction are it's a social addiction more than a biochemical, like nicotine or cocaine-type addiction.
因此，社交媒体成瘾的动态是，它是一种社交成瘾，而不是一种生化成瘾，如尼古丁或可卡因型成瘾。
So I think the way to break out isn't, "Hey, these people are exploiting you." That might be helpful.
所以我认为突破的方法不是“嘿，这些人在剥削你”。这可能会有帮助。
We should definitely study that.
我们绝对应该研究这一点。
I think the way to break out is, "Okay, look, you guys actually can see what this is doing to you.
我认为突破的方法是，“好吧，看，你们实际上可以看到这对你们做了什么。
You mostly agree that this is wasting your time.
您大多同意这是在浪费您的时间。
It's garbage.
这是垃圾。
You want a way out, but you just feel like you can't.
你想要一条出路，但你只是觉得你不能。
There's such resignation.
有这样的辞职。
But look, the cool kids over there, they have flip phones, and they're out every day after school.
但是你看，那边很酷的孩子，他们有翻盖手机，而且每天放学后都会出去。
They're doing stuff.
他们正在做事。
They're in the mall.
他们在商场里。
They're getting pizza.
他们去买披萨了
They're building a fort," whatever, depending on the age.
他们正在建造一座堡垒，”无论如何，这取决于年龄。
So I think the way out is to give kids an exciting childhood.
所以我认为出路是给孩子一个令人兴奋的童年。
Kids are so lonely now, and they don't have much in the way of adventure.
现在的孩子们太孤独了，他们没有太多冒险的机会。
They don't have much in the way of thrills.
他们没有太多的刺激。
I live in New York City.
我住在纽约市。
I would bring my kids out to Coney Island when they were 9, 10 years old, bring them out, and then I would just say, "I'm just going to sit here.
当我的孩子 9、10 岁的时候，我会带他们去康尼岛，带他们出去，然后我会说，“我就坐在这里。
You guys run around.
你们跑来跑去。
You guys go have fun.
你们去玩吧。
I'm not going to be with you.
我不会和你在一起。
Yeah, there's a chance you'll get kidnapped or struck by lightning," although lightning is more likely.
是的，你有可能被绑架或被闪电击中，”尽管闪电的可能性更大。
And then it got, once they were more like 13, now they can actually take the subway out to Coney Island with a friend.
然后，当他们长到 13 岁的时候，现在他们实际上可以和朋友一起乘地铁去康尼岛了。
So that's cool.
所以这很酷。
I think that's the way to do it.
我认为这就是做到这一点的方法。
Don't make it like, "We're going to take away all this stuff from you.
不要说“我们要拿走你所有的东西。
Ha ha ha.
哈哈哈。
Now you have nothing to do." Make it more like I'm not trying to hurt you here.
现在你没什么可做的了。”让它看起来更像是我不想在这里伤害你。
I want you to have fun the way I did and the way your grandparents did.
我希望你像我和你的祖父母那样享受乐趣。
We all had human childhoods full of adventure.
我们都有充满冒险的人类童年。
I want that for you.
我想要给你那个。
And I think most Gen Z will embrace that.
我认为大多数 Z 世代都会接受这一点。
They just don't want to do it alone.
他们只是不想独自完成这件事。
So the key is, if you're listening to this podcast, and if you have kids that are in elementary and middle school, be sure to talk with the parents of your kids' friends.
所以关键是，如果您正在听这个播客，并且您有上小学和初中的孩子，请务必与孩子朋友的父母交谈。
So if you want to make some changes in your phone policies, if four families do it together, now your kid's not going to feel left out or deprived.
因此，如果您想对手机政策进行一些更改，如果四个家庭一起这样做，那么您的孩子现在就不会感到被排除在外或被剥夺了权利。
And be sure to give them something.
并且一定要给他们一些东西。
Give them, say, "Here, you know what?
给他们，说：“在这里，你知道吗？
How about every Friday, let's call it Free Play Friday.
每个星期五怎么样，我们称之为“免费游戏星期五”。
No piano lessons on Friday, no nothing on Friday.
周五没有钢琴课，周五什么也没有。
Fridays, you all get together.
星期五，大家聚在一起。
You can start at anyone's house, go out, do what you want.
你可以从任何人家里开始，出去，做你想做的事。
We'll give you more allowance, or we'll give you money to spend, but go have experiences." Then it's fun, it's not deprivation.
我们会给你更多的津贴，或者我们会给你钱花，但是去体验吧。”那么这很有趣，这不是剥夺。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I love the trust in kids to sort things out and to be safe enough.
我喜欢相信孩子们能够解决问题并且足够安全。
At least the statistics say that they're more likely to thrive under those conditions than to be kidnapped or have something terrible happen.
至少统计数据表明，他们在这种条件下茁壮成长的可能性比被绑架或发生可怕的事情的可能性更大。
I like it also because it merges your previous book, "Coddling of the American Mind," with the current book, "The Anxious Generation." I have a bunch of other questions, but I think the most important one at this stage is how optimistic or pessimistic are you about the changes that you're hoping for?
我喜欢它的另一个原因是它融合了你之前的书《溺爱美国思想》和你现在的书《焦虑的一代》。我还有很多其他问题，但我认为现阶段最重要的一个是你对你所希望的改变有多乐观或悲观？
And then the second question is, how can we all help?
第二个问题是，我们可以如何提供帮助？
You mentioned these four action items, no smartphone before high school, no social media until 16, phone-free schools, and to foster this exploration and independence.
您提到了这四个行动项目，高中之前没有智能手机，16 岁之前没有社交媒体，学校没有手机，以及促进这种探索和独立。
And we will propagate those four things as far and wide as we can.
我们将尽可能广泛地宣传这四件事。
But I think everybody, parents and kids, I'm sure as well, want to know what can we do.
但我相信每个人，包括父母和孩子，都想知道我们能做什么。
So, optimism scale, zero being you're doing this as a last-ditch effort, but it's hopeless.
所以，乐观程度为零，因为你正在做最后的努力，但这是无望的。
Well, you wouldn't be here if you thought it was hopeless.
好吧，如果你认为没有希望，你就不会在这里。
So one to 10, one being just a sliver of hope, 10 being we got this, same way we got other stuff in the past.
所以一比十，一只是一线希望，十就是我们得到了这个，就像我们过去得到了其他东西一样。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Yeah, I'm a 10.
是的，我是10号。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You're a 10.
你是10号。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
10.
10.
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Awesome.
太棒了。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
10.0.
10.0。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Love it.
喜欢它。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
And the reason is because I've never seen a situation like this.
原因是因为我从未见过这样的情况。
I've been involved in a lot of efforts to change attitudes.
我付出了很多努力来改变态度。
I ran a gun control group in college when I was 20.
我 20 岁时在大学里管理过一个枪支管制小组。
And that was impossible.
那是不可能的。
And I've been involved in political campaigns.
我也参与过政治竞选活动。
You're trying to persuade people, and you can't get their attention, and how do you message them?
您试图说服人们，但无法引起他们的注意，您如何向他们传达信息？
And it's really hard.
这真的很难。
That's the way anybody involved in social change has experienced that.
这就是任何参与社会变革的人都经历过的方式。
That's most things.
这就是大多数事情。
This is like you drop a spark, and it just goes everywhere.
这就像你丢下了一个火花，它就会到处都是。
So all over the world, all over the developed world, family life has become a fight over screen time.
因此，在世界各地，在发达国家，家庭生活已经成为争夺屏幕时间的斗争。
Almost every parent of a kid over two recognizes this.
几乎每个两岁以上孩子的父母都认识到这一点。
We all hate it.
我们都讨厌它。
We're sick of it, and we've just been confused.
我们对此感到厌倦，并且感到困惑。
The only real pushback I've got, I've gotten two kinds.
我遇到的唯一真正的阻力有两种。
One is I am in a normal academic debate with about seven or eight researchers who say there's not evidence of causality.
一是我正在与大约七八名研究人员进行正常的学术辩论，他们说没有因果关系的证据。
I believe there is.
我相信有。
We're marshaling evidence against each other.
我们正在收集互相指控的证据。
But by and large, almost everyone seems persuaded because they already knew this, they already thought it, they already saw it.
但总的来说，几乎每个人似乎都被说服了，因为他们已经知道这一点，他们已经想到了这一点，他们已经看到了这一点。
And what I've done with the book is just given them some psychological concepts and some clear labels and a way out.
我在这本书中所做的只是给他们一些心理学概念和一些清晰的标签和出路。
And I'm so confident, in part because the revolution started in Britain in February.
我非常有信心，部分原因是革命于二月份在英国开始。
Yes, they drew on some of my older articles, but this was before my book came out.
是的，他们借鉴了我的一些旧文章，但那是在我的书出版之前。
Parents are self-organizing.
父母是自组织的。
In Britain, the government is acting.
在英国，政府正在采取行动。
They actually have a functioning legislature in Britain, and the government has led efforts to pass laws as well.
英国实际上有一个正常运作的立法机构，政府也主导了通过法律的努力。
So I know it's working in Britain.
所以我知道它在英国有效。
And I see it happening here now at a massive scale.
我现在看到这种情况正在大规模发生。
The point of the book is collective action.
这本书的重点是集体行动。
And parents all over the country are heeding that.
全国各地的家长都在关注这一点。
They're forming reading groups.
他们正在组建读书小组。
They're going in in a group to talk with the principal.
他们要分成一组去和校长谈话。
The principals and teachers, they all hate the phones.
校长和老师，他们都讨厌电话。
It makes their lives impossible.
这让他们的生活变得不可能。
They want a phone-free school, but they were afraid of the few parents who freak out if they can't text their child during class.
他们想要一所没有电话的学校，但他们担心少数家长如果不能在课堂上给孩子发短信，就会抓狂。
If the schools are overwhelmed by parents saying, "Please, lock up the phones.
如果学校被家长说“请锁上电话。
Please let my child have six hours a day when she can listen to the teacher instead of do more TikTok." So I am very confident that childhood is going to look very different within two years.
请让我的孩子每天有六个小时的时间，让她可以听老师讲课，而不是玩更多的 TikTok。”所以我非常有信心，两年内童年将会变得非常不同。
I don't mean that there won't be seven-year-olds on phones.
我并不是说不会有七岁的孩子使用手机。
But in the same way that we flipped on smoking, we used to think it was okay to smoke in an airplane.
但就像我们开始吸烟一样，我们曾经认为在飞机上吸烟是可以的。
We used to think it was okay to smoke in restaurants.
我们曾经认为在餐馆里吸烟是可以的。
It was okay to smoke everywhere, we thought.
我们认为，随处吸烟是可以的。
And now we don't.
但现在我们不这样做了。
We don't think that anymore.
我们不再这么想了。
That took a long time to change, but it did change.
这花了很长时间才改变，但确实改变了。
I think because of the public disgust with seeing children just spending their childhood looking at a screen, and because the public disgust with what we've heard about Meta and TikTok and a few of the other companies, I think within two years, it's going to be widespread, it'll be a norm that you just don't give kids social media in particular.
我认为，因为公众厌恶看到孩子们的童年只是看着屏幕，也因为公众厌恶我们所听到的有关 Meta 和 TikTok 以及其他一些公司的信息，我认为两年之内，这种情况将会普遍存在，不为孩子们提供社交媒体将成为一种常态。
iPads are complicated because you want kids to watch movies is okay, stories are good.
iPad 很复杂，因为你想让孩子看电影没问题，故事也不错。
I'm not saying the iPad is a terrible thing.
我并不是说 iPad 是一件糟糕的事情。
But our attitudes about this are going to change radically.
但我们对此的态度将会发生根本性的改变。
And I think the great majority of schools are going to be phone-free within two years.
我认为绝大多数学校将在两年内取消电话。
And we're going to see, we're already seeing more kids outside.
我们将会看到，我们已经在外面看到了更多的孩子。
Every day, I get emails from grateful parents saying, "Because of your book, my six-year-old, he wanted to ride his bicycle down to the end of our cul-de-sac.
每天，我都会收到充满感激之情的父母发来的电子邮件，他们说：“因为你的书，我六岁的孩子，他想骑着自行车走到我们的死胡同的尽头。
He wanted to ride down, circle, and come back.
他想骑下去，绕一圈，然后再回来。
And I never would let him because I was afraid that what would the neighbors say?
我从来不会让他这么做，因为我担心邻居会怎么说？
But once I read your book, I decided to let him." And he was so ecstatic.
但当我读了你的书后，我决定让他这么做。”他非常欣喜若狂。
He kept doing it and doing it, and now he's going further, and he rides to his friends' houses.
他一直这样做，一直这样做，现在他走得更远，他骑车去他朋友家。
So people in her neighborhood, now they're seeing a kid on a bicycle.
她附近的人们现在看到一个骑自行车的孩子。
And if suppose there were 10 kids doing it, well, now it's normal.
如果假设有 10 个孩子这样做，那么现在就很正常了。
So we can re-normalize human childhood in the real world, where our kids get the chance to have independent adventures and learn how to be self-supervising adults, ultimately.
因此，我们可以在现实世界中重新规范人类的童年，让我们的孩子有机会进行独立的冒险，并最终学习如何成为自我监督的成年人。
We can do this.
我们可以做到这一点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay, so you're a 10 out of 10 on the optimism scale.
好的，那么你的乐观程度是满分 10 分。
What can we do to facilitate and accelerate this whole process?
我们可以做些什么来促进和加速整个过程？
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
So once we understand that this is a collective action problem, that we're all stuck in this because everyone else is stuck, and we can't leave if we're the only ones.
因此，一旦我们明白这是一个集体行动问题，我们都会陷入困境，因为其他人都陷入困境，如果我们是唯一的人，我们就无法离开。
Once we understand that, now you see the key is collective action.
一旦我们明白了这一点，现在你就会明白关键是集体行动。
So talk to your friends about this.
所以和你的朋友谈谈这件事。
Talk about the book with them.
与他们谈论这本书。
You don't have to buy the book, just go to anxiousgeneration.com.
您不必购买这本书，只需访问 eager Generation.com 即可。
We have all kinds of resources.
我们拥有各种资源。
I have talks where I've summarized the book in videos.
我在演讲中用视频总结了这本书。
Talk about it with your friends, talk about it with your family, talk about it with other parents at the school.
与你的朋友谈论它，与你的家人谈论它，与学校的其他家长谈论它。
If you're on social media, social media is great for adults who want to pursue projects.
如果您使用社交媒体，那么社交媒体对于想要追求项目的成年人来说非常有用。
I just don't think it's good for kids to be pursued by the social media companies.
我只是不认为社交媒体公司追逐孩子对孩子有好处。
But if you're on Instagram in particular, that's where a lot of parents are, especially mothers, talk about these issues.
但如果你在 Instagram 上，就会发现很多家长，尤其是母亲们都在谈论这些问题。
Say you're going to let your kid have some free-range childhood.
假设您要让您的孩子享受自由放养的童年。
You're going to try to do these four norms.
你将尝试遵守这四个规范。
And then if you're able, I hope that you'll support the projects.
如果可以的话，我希望您能够支持这些项目。
If you go to anxiousgeneration.com, there's a donate button.
如果您访问 eager Generation.com，就会有一个捐赠按钮。
NYU has it set up so that people can donate into a research account for me, and that's what I use to pay my small staff.
纽约大学设立了它，以便人们可以向我的研究账户捐款，这就是我用来支付我的小员工的工资。
I have about four or five people working for me, and I hope to grow that to 10.
我大约有四五个人为我工作，我希望将其增加到 10 人。
I hope people donate to me at anxiousgeneration.com or to Let Grow, this wonderful organization that advocates for giving playback and independence back to kids, letgrow.org.
我希望人们在 eager Generation.com 上向我捐款，或者向 Let Grow 捐款，Let Grow 是一个倡导让孩子们重获娱乐和独立性的出色组织，letgrow.org。
And if you know influential people, if you know state legislators.
如果你认识有影响力的人，如果你认识州立法者。
Oh, and in Congress, there is a very important bill, KOSA, the Kids Online Safety Act.
哦，国会有一项非常重要的法案，KOSA，即《儿童在线安全法案》。
Contact your legislators about that.
请联系您的立法者。
Say you support KOSA.
说你支持 KOSA。
It could be coming up for a vote very, very soon.
可能很快就会进行投票。
This is the one piece that really could get through the US Congress.
这是真正能够通过美国国会的一项提案。
Beyond the Congress, a lot of states are acting, which is very, very exciting.
除了国会之外，许多州也在采取行动，这非常非常令人兴奋。
So make your views known to your state legislators if you know them, or the mayor or governor if you know them.
因此，如果您认识州议员，请向他们表达您的观点；如果您认识市长或州长，请向他们表达您的观点。
This is a collective action trap.
这是一个集体行动陷阱。
The only way out is together.
唯一的出路就是在一起。
So if we act together, we can break this.
因此，如果我们共同行动，我们就能打破这一局面。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Terrific.
太棒了。
And we'll put links to all of those things you just mentioned in the show note captions.
我们将在节目注释标题中添加您刚才提到的所有内容的链接。
Jonathan, you're bringing the humanity back.
乔纳森，你正在让人类回归。
It's remarkable.
这很了不起。
And as a fellow academic, I have to say, your depth of scholarship in terms of developing and researching these ideas, but also the vigor and the mission that you have around doing good and making sure that it happens soon, as opposed to waiting another 10 years and seeing just how bad this can get, is really inspiring.
作为一名学者，我不得不说，你在发展和研究这些想法方面的学术深度，以及你围绕做好事并确保它很快发生的活力和使命，而不是再等 10 年，看看事情会变得多么糟糕，真的很鼓舞人心。
I feel it.
我感觉到了。
I know for sure that people listening and watching feel it.
我确信听众和观看者都能感受到这一点。
And so I want to thank you for doing this work.
所以我要感谢你所做的这项工作。
Again, I loved "Coddling of the American Mind" because it just woke me up to how much things had changed and were changing, and it's such an important book, and "The Anxious Generation" is truly an important book, and I don't say that lightly.
再说一次，我喜欢《溺爱美国思想》，因为它让我意识到事情已经发生了多大的变化，并且正在发生变化，这是一本如此重要的书，而《焦虑的一代》确实是一本重要的书，我不会轻易这么说。
It's mission-driven, goal-driven, and it has actionable items that I'm certain many people listening to this are going to partake in.
它是使命驱动的、目标驱动的，并且有可操作的项目，我确信很多听这个的人都会参与其中。
So on behalf of the listeners and viewers, and also myself, but also the positive change to come, I just want to say thank you for taking the time out of your very busy schedule.
因此，我代表听众和观众，以及我自己，也代表即将到来的积极变化，我只想说，谢谢你们在百忙之中抽出时间。
You're still a professor.
你还是个教授。
You're also a public-facing health science educator.
您也是一名面向公众的健康科学教育者。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Like you.
就像你一样。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
So, I feel a kinship there.
所以，我在那里感到一种亲切感。
For coming here and speaking with us today, and we'll provide links to the books and to these other resources in the show note captions, and we'd love to have you back again, hopefully in the not too distant future, so that we can review all the progress that you've stimulated.
今天来到这里与我们交谈，我们将在节目注释标题中提供书籍和其他资源的链接，我们很高兴您再次回来，希望在不久的将来，以便我们可以回顾您所推动的所有进展。
So thank you so much.
非常感谢。
Dr. Jonathan Haidt:
乔纳森·海特博士：
Well, thanks so much, Andrew, and thanks for all the work that you do to make science cool and interesting.
嗯，非常感谢，安德鲁，感谢你为让科学变得有趣而所做的所有工作。
So I really appreciate your work, and I'm very grateful to you for having me on.
所以我真的很感谢你的工作，也非常感谢你邀请我参加。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's been a pleasure.
很高兴。
Thank you.
谢谢。
Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Jonathan Haidt.
感谢您参加今天与乔纳森·海特博士的讨论。
To learn more about and/or to support Dr. Haidt's work, and to find a link to his important new book, "The Anxious Generation: How the Great Rewiring of Childhood Is Causing an Epidemic of Mental Illness," please see the links in the show note captions.
要了解更多关于和/或支持海特博士的工作，并找到他的重要新书《焦虑的一代：童年的伟大重塑如何导致精神疾病的流行》的链接，请参阅节目说明标题中的链接。
And if you're learning from and/or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel.
如果您正在学习和/或喜欢这个播客，请订阅我们的 YouTube 频道。
You can also subscribe to the podcast by following on both Spotify and Apple.
您还可以通过关注 Spotify 和 Apple 来订阅播客。
And on both Spotify and Apple, you can leave us up to a five-star review.
在 Spotify 和 Apple 上，您都可以给我们五星级的评价。
Please also check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode.
另请查看今天节目开头和整个节目中提到的赞助商。
That's the best way to support this podcast.
这是支持这个播客的最佳方式。
If you have questions for me or comments about the podcast, or you have guests or topics that you'd like me to consider for the Huberman Lab podcast, please put those in the comments section on YouTube.
如果您对我有疑问或对播客有意见，或者您希望我为 Huberman Lab 播客考虑一些嘉宾或主题，请将这些内容放入 YouTube 的评论部分。
I do read all the comments.
我确实阅读了所有评论。
If you're not already following me on social media, I am hubermanlab on all social media platforms.
如果您还没有在社交媒体上关注我，我是所有社交媒体平台上的 hubermanlab。
So that's Instagram, Twitter, now known as X, LinkedIn, Threads, and Facebook.
这就是 Instagram、Twitter（现在称为 X）、LinkedIn、Threads 和 Facebook。
And on all those platforms, I cover science and science-based tools, some of which overlap with the content of the Huberman Lab podcast, but much of which is distinct from the content on the Huberman Lab podcast.
在所有这些平台上，我介绍了科学和基于科学的工具，其中一些与胡伯曼实验室播客的内容重叠，但其中大部分与胡伯曼实验室播客的内容不同。
So again, that's hubermanlab on all social media platforms.
再说一次，这就是所有社交媒体平台上的 hubermanlab。
And if you haven't already subscribed to our Neural Network Newsletter, the Neural Network Newsletter is a zero-cost monthly newsletter that provides Huberman Lab podcast summaries, as well as protocols in the form of brief one- to three-page PDFs, with everything from neuroplasticity and learning, to how to optimize your sleep or optimize your dopamine.
如果您还没有订阅我们的神经网络时事通讯，神经网络时事通讯是一份零成本的月度时事通讯，提供 Huberman Lab 播客摘要以及简短的一到三页 PDF 形式的协议，内容涵盖从神经可塑性和学习到如何优化您的睡眠或多巴胺的一切内容。
We have protocols for deliberate cold exposure and deliberate heat exposure.
我们有故意冷暴露和故意热暴露的方案。
We have a foundational fitness protocol that spells out resistance training and cardiovascular training in detail.
我们有一个基本的健身方案，详细说明了阻力训练和心血管训练。
All of which is available at zero cost.
所有这些都可以零成本获得。
You simply go to hubermanlab.com, go to the Menu tab, scroll down to Newsletter, and provide your email.
您只需访问 hubermanlab.com，转到“菜单”选项卡，向下滚动到“时事通讯”，然后提供您的电子邮件即可。
And I should point out that we do not share your email with anybody.
我应该指出，我们不会与任何人分享您的电子邮件。
Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Jonathan Haidt.
再次感谢您参加今天与乔纳森·海特博士的讨论。
And last, but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.
最后但同样重要的是，感谢您对科学的兴趣。