Dr. James Hollis: How to Find Your True Purpose & Create Your Best Life
Welcome to the Huberman Lab Podcast, where we discuss science, science-based tools for everyday life.
欢迎来到休伯曼实验室播客，我们在这里讨论科学以及日常生活中基于科学的工具。
Thank you.
谢谢。
I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School Of Medicine.
我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。
My guest today is Dr. James Hollis.
今天我的客人是詹姆斯·霍利斯博士。
Dr. James Hollis is a Jungian psychoanalyst and author of more than 17 books about the self, relationships, and how to create the best possible life.
詹姆斯·霍利斯 (James Hollis) 博士是一位荣格精神分析师，着有超过 17 本书，内容涉及自我、人际关系以及如何创造最好的生活。
Some of the notable titles and topics of those books include Creating a Life, Finding Your Individual Path, as well as The Eden Project, In Search of the Magical Other, which as the name suggests is about relationships.
这些书的一些著名标题和主题包括《创造生活》、《寻找你的个人道路》，以及《伊甸园计划》、《寻找神奇的他者》，顾名思义，这些书是关于人际关系的。
He has also written about how to access our most resilient self in the book entitled "'Living Between Worlds,"'Finding Personal Resilience in Changing Times.' "During today's discussion, Dr.
他还在《生活在世界之间》、《在变化的时代中寻找个人复原力》一书中讲述了如何获得最具复原力的自我。 “在今天的讨论中，博士。
Hollis teaches us what questions we need to ask of ourselves on a regular basis in order to best understand who we really are and what we most desire at the level of vocation, romantic relationships, friendship, and family, and indeed in relationship to life's journey.
霍利斯告诉我们，我们需要定期问自己哪些问题，以便更好地了解我们到底是谁，以及我们在职业、浪漫关系、友谊和家庭层面以及与人生旅程的关系方面最渴望什么。
What you'll quickly realize during today's discussion with Dr.
在今天与 Dr. 的讨论中，您很快就会意识到什么。
Hollis is that while yes, he is trained as a Jungian psychoanalyst, he is also very firmly grounded in practical tools.
霍利斯的优点是，虽然他接受过荣格精神分析学家的培训，但他也非常扎根于实用工具。
That is, he teaches us the simple and yet practical tools that we can each and all apply on a daily basis in order to make sure that we are staying on our best path.
也就是说，他教给我们简单而实用的工具，我们每个人都可以每天应用这些工具，以确保我们走在最好的道路上。
We discuss how family dynamics that we grew up in, as well as trauma and attachment styles, combined with our unique gifts, and indeed our shadow side as well, in order to drive us down particular trajectories in life that sometimes lead us where we want to go, but other times lead us astray.
我们讨论了我们成长过程中的家庭动态、创伤和依恋风格，与我们独特的天赋以及我们的阴暗面相结合，如何驱使我们走上特定的生活轨迹，这些轨迹有时引导我们到达我们想去的地方，但有时却引导我们误入歧途。
And when they do, how to get back on track.
当他们这样做时，如何回到正轨。
Today's conversation with Dr. Hollis is truly a special one in that he rarely does podcast appearances.
今天与霍利斯博士的对话确实很特别，因为他很少在播客中露面。
In fact, we traveled to him to record this podcast.
事实上，我们特地去找他录制这个播客。
That's how motivated I was to be able to sit down with him because I'm familiar with his many books and his incredible teachings, but I really wanted to get his knowledge collected in one format, in one place.
这就是我能够坐下来与他交谈的动力，因为我熟悉他的许多书籍和他令人难以置信的教导，但我真的很想把他的知识以一种格式收集在一个地方。
And what I can promise you is that by the end of today's podcast, you will be thinking differently about yourself, about the people in your life, and indeed life itself.
我可以向你保证，在今天的播客结束时，你会对自己、生活中的人、甚至生活本身有不同的思考。
Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.
在开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。
It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public.
然而，我的愿望和努力的一部分是向公众提供有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本消费者信息。
In keeping with that theme, I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast.
为了与这个主题保持一致，我要感谢今天播客的赞助商。
Our first sponsor is Matina.
我们的第一个赞助商是马蒂娜。
Matina makes loose leaf and ready to drink yerba mate.
Matina 制作散叶并准备饮用马黛茶。
Now I've long been a fan of yerba mate as a source of caffeine, in part because of its high antioxidant content, as well as its ability to elevate glucagon-like peptide one or GLP-1, which leads to a slight appetite suppressing effect, as well as its ability to regulate blood sugar and possible neuroprotective effects.
现在，我长期以来一直喜欢马黛茶作为咖啡因来源，部分原因是它的抗氧化剂含量高，以及它能够提高胰高血糖素样肽 1 或 GLP-1 的水平，从而导致轻微的食欲抑制作用，以及它调节血糖的能力和可能的神经保护作用。
I also just happen to love the way that yerba mate tastes.
我也恰好喜欢马黛茶的味道。
I'll sometimes drink it hot by pouring hot water over the loose leaf yerba mate, and I'm particularly fond these days of drinking the zero sugar, cold brew Matina yerba mate that I helped develop.
有时我会通过将热水倒在散叶马黛茶上来喝热饮，这些天我特别喜欢喝我帮助开发的零糖冷泡马蒂纳马黛茶。
Now I realize that there are a lot of different brands of loose leaf and canned and bottled yerba mate out there, but the reason I like Matina the most is, first of all, it has absolutely the best taste of all of them.
现在我意识到市面上有很多不同品牌的散叶茶、罐装和瓶装马黛茶，但我最喜欢 Matina 的原因是，首先，它的味道绝对是所有品牌中最好的。
Secondly, they only use organic ingredients.
其次，他们只使用有机成分。
And thirdly, because they offer low sugar and zero sugar varieties.
第三，因为他们提供低糖和零糖品种。
If you'd like to try Matina, you can go to drinkmatina.com slash Huberman.
如果您想尝试 Matina，可以访问 Drinkmatina.com 和 Huberman。
That's spelled drink, M-A-T-E-I-N-A.com slash Huberman.
这就是“drink”，M-A-T-E-I-N-A.com 斜线 Huberman。
Right now, Matina is offering a free one pound bag of loose leaf yerba mate tea and free shipping with the purchase of two cases of their cold brew yerba mate.
目前，Matina 提供免费一磅一袋散叶马黛茶，购买两箱冷泡马黛茶可免运费。
Again, that's drinkmatina.com slash Huberman.
再说一遍，这是 Drinkmatina.com 斜线 Huberman。
Today's episode is also brought to us by Juve.
今天的节目也是尤文给我们带来的。
Juve makes medical grade red light therapy devices.
Juve 生产医疗级红光治疗设备。
Now, if there's one thing that I've consistently emphasized on this podcast, it's the incredible impact that light, meaning photons, can have on our mental health and physical health.
现在，如果我在这个播客中一直强调一件事，那就是光（即光子）对我们的心理健康和身体健康产生的令人难以置信的影响。
Red and near infrared light has been shown to have profound effects on improving cellular health, which can help with faster muscle recovery, boosting healthier skin, reducing pain and inflammation, enhancing sleep, and much more.
红光和近红外光已被证明对改善细胞健康具有深远的影响，有助于更快的肌肉恢复、促进更健康的皮肤、减少疼痛和炎症、增强睡眠等等。
What sets Juve apart is that it uses clinically effective wavelengths, emits a safe and effective dose of red and near infrared light, and most importantly, offers the only true medical grade red light panel available.
Juve 的与众不同之处在于，它使用临床有效的波长，发射安全有效剂量的红光和近红外光，最重要的是，提供唯一真正的医疗级红光面板。
I personally try to use the handheld Juve Go unit, as it's called, every day, and especially when I'm on the road traveling.
我个人每天都会尝试使用手持式 Juve Go 设备，尤其是在路上旅行时。
If you'd like to try Juve, you can go to Juve.com slash Huberman.
如果您想尝试尤文，您可以访问 Juve.com slash Huberman。
That's J-O-O-V-V.
那是 J-O-O-V-V。
Com slash Huberman.
Com 斜线休伯曼。
Juve is offering an exclusive discount to Huberman Lab Podcast listeners with up to $400 off Juve products.
Juve 为 Huberman Lab 播客听众提供最高 400 美元的 Juve 产品独家折扣。
Again, that's Juve.com slash Huberman.
这又是 Juve.com 的斜线胡伯曼。
Today's episode is also brought to us by BetterHelp.
今天的节目也是由 BetterHelp 为我们带来的。
BetterHelp offers professional therapy with a licensed therapist carried out online.
BetterHelp 提供由持证治疗师在线进行的专业治疗。
I've been going to therapy for well over 30 years.
我接受治疗已有 30 多年了。
Initially, I didn't have a choice.
最初，我别无选择。
It was a condition of being allowed to stay in school.
这是被允许留在学校的一个条件。
But pretty soon I realized that therapy is extremely valuable.
但很快我就意识到治疗非常有价值。
In fact, I consider doing regular therapy just as important as getting regular exercise, including cardiovascular exercise and resistance training, which of course I also do every week.
事实上，我认为定期治疗与定期锻炼一样重要，包括心血管锻炼和阻力训练，当然我每周也会进行这些锻炼。
The reason I know therapy is so valuable is that if you can find a therapist with whom you can develop a really good rapport, you not only get terrific support for some of the challenges in your life, but you also can derive tremendous insights from that therapy.
我知道治疗如此有价值的原因是，如果你能找到一位可以与你建立良好融洽关系的治疗师，你不仅可以在生活中的一些挑战中获得极好的支持，而且还可以从该治疗中获得巨大的见解。
Insights that can allow you to better, not just your emotional life and your relationship life, but of course also the relationship to yourself and to your professional life, to all sorts of career goals.
这些见解可以让你变得更好，不仅是你的情感生活和人际关系生活，当然还有你自己的关系、你的职业生活、各种职业目标。
In fact, I see therapy as one of the key components for meshing together all aspects of one's life and being able to really direct one's focus and attention toward what really matters.
事实上，我认为治疗是将一个人生活的各个方面融合在一起并能够真正将一个人的注意力集中在真正重要的事情上的关键组成部分之一。
If you'd like to try BetterHelp, go to BetterHelp.com slash Huberman to get 10% off your first month.
如果您想尝试 BetterHelp，请访问 BetterHelp.comlash Huberman，第一个月可享受 10% 的折扣。
Again, that's BetterHelp.com slash Huberman.
再说一次，这是 BetterHelp.com 斜线 Huberman。
And now for my discussion with Dr. James Hollis.
现在我与詹姆斯·霍利斯博士进行讨论。
Dr. James Hollis, such an honor and a pleasure to sit down with you.
詹姆斯·霍利斯博士，很荣幸也很高兴与您坐下来。
I'm a huge fan of your writing, and I'm excited to talk to you today.
我是你写作的超级粉丝，很高兴今天能和你交谈。
Thank you, Andrew.
谢谢你，安德鲁。
It's a privilege to be with you.
能和你在一起是我的荣幸。
Thank you.
谢谢你。
Let's talk about the self.
我们来谈谈自我吧。
This is something that I think people occasionally wonder about, you know, who am I?
我认为人们偶尔会想知道这一点，你知道，我是谁？
We wake up every day, we have some stable representation of who we are and our name most of the time.
我们每天醒来，大多数时候我们都会对我们是谁和我们的名字有一些稳定的表征。
And we develop a self, a story based on what we know about our parents, our siblings, our life, from the perspective of...
我们根据我们对父母、兄弟姐妹、生活的了解，从……的角度发展出一个自我，一个故事。
Jungian psychology, maybe psychology generally, how should we think about ourselves?
荣格心理学，也许是一般心理学，我们应该如何看待自己？
Well, first of all, the idea of the self with a capital S to distinguish it from the ego consciousness, that is to say my conscious presence as you and I are talking right now.
嗯，首先，自我的概念用大写的S来区分它与自我意识，也就是说，当你和我现在正在谈话时，我的意识存在。
Is a transcendent other.
是一个超越的他者。
It's a mystery.
这是一个谜。
It's essentially governed by our instincts.
它本质上是由我们的本能控制的。
You know, it's nature seeking its own expression and its own healing.
你知道，这是大自然在寻求自己的表达和治愈。
What I've seen in terms of the activity of the cell through the years, it has two agendas.
就我多年来所看到的细胞活动而言，它有两个议程。
One, healing when injured.
一、受伤时愈合。
And secondly, expressing itself in the same way that the acorn becomes the oak tree, so to speak.
其次，可以说，以橡子变成橡树的方式表达自己。
Now, the ego, of course, is that little scintilla of energy that begins to cluster.
当然，现在，自我就是开始聚集的小能量闪烁。
We're born without an ego, but then there's this assembled shards of experience between the me and the not me that slowly accumulate, almost in tidal pools, so that I begin to differentiate myself from the other, my mother, let's say, or my father, or the object that is there.
我们生来就没有自我，但是在“我”和“非我”之间，有这些经验的碎片，慢慢地积累起来，几乎在潮汐池中，这样我就开始将自己与他人区分开来，比如我的母亲，或者我的父亲，或者那里的物体。
And you're right.
你是对的。
We are an animal that seeks to understand as part of our adaptation to the world.
我们是一种寻求理解的动物，这是我们适应世界的一部分。
And so we are narrative animals.
所以我们是叙事动物。
We create stories about it.
我们创造有关它的故事。
And our stories rise out of what we're experiencing at the moment.
我们的故事源于我们此刻正在经历的事情。
So you can see why a person born into a certain culture or a certain family of origin with its style of relating or disrelating, as the case may be.
因此，你可以明白为什么一个人出生在某种文化或某个家庭，其关联或分离的风格取决于具体情况。
Becomes the ground for defining that person's sense of self.
成为定义该人的自我意识的基础。
So it's important to distinguish between the self and one's sense of self.
因此区分自我和自我意识很重要。
The sense of self is who I think I am.
自我意识就是我认为我是谁。
In any given moment, that's very fluid, of course.
当然，在任何特定时刻，这都是非常流畅的。
Now, we have all kinds of internal clusters of energy.
现在，我们拥有各种内部能量簇。
They're called complexes, a term that Jung popularized.
它们被称为复合体，这是荣格推广的一个术语。
And complexes are splinter personalities, he said.
他说，情结是个性的分裂。
So a person might say, why did I get so upset yesterday?
有人可能会说，我昨天为什么这么难过？
What came over me?
我怎么了？
Or I don't know what I was thinking when I made this important decision.
或者说我不知道自己在做出这个重要决定的时候在想什么。
And that's our recognition that we were in an altered state at that moment, that something within us had been triggered, had sufficient energy to come up, usurp ego consciousness, and take it over.
这就是我们认识到，我们在那一刻处于一种改变的状态，我们内心的某些东西被触发了，有足够的能量出现，篡夺了自我意识，并接管了它。
Actually, the term that Jung used in German meant possession.
实际上，荣格在德语中使用的术语意味着占有。
It's a state of psychic possession temporarily.
这是一种暂时的精神占有状态。
You know, we joke that lovers are fools or lovers are blind.
你知道，我们开玩笑说恋人是傻瓜或者恋人是盲目的。
So we know that people are in a certain, they're caught in a certain projection onto the other.
所以我们知道人们处于某种状态，他们陷入了对他人的某种投射之中。
And, you know, that ultimately gets, you know, resolved into some sort of reality through time and experience with that individual.
而且，你知道，通过时间和与那个人的经历，这最终会变成某种现实。
But in that state of being, one senses that one's making the right decision.
但在这种状态下，人们会感觉到自己正在做出正确的决定。
And no one wakes in the morning and says, for example, well, today I think I'm going to do the same stupid, counterproductive things I've done for decades, but there's a good chance we will.
没有人早上醒来会说，好吧，今天我想我会做我几十年来一直在做的同样愚蠢的、适得其反的事情，但我们很有可能会这样做。
Why?
为什么？
Because we have certain clusters of energy in us that are regularly triggered.
因为我们体内有某些经常被触发的能量簇。
When triggered, they catalyze a response in the ego that enacts that program.
当被触发时，它们会催化自我的反应，从而执行该程序。
So it affects our body, it affects our script, and of course it affects our perception of self and world.
所以它影响我们的身体，影响我们的剧本，当然也影响我们对自我和世界的感知。
You know, from the standpoint of therapy, one of the things we try to do...
你知道，从治疗的角度来看，我们尝试做的事情之一......
Is suggest to people you're not what happened to you because one of our tendencies is to internalize whatever's happening to us.
这向人们表明，发生在你身上的事情并不是你的，因为我们的倾向之一就是将发生在我们身上的事情内化。
And thinking of that defines us.
想到这一点就定义了我们。
Of course, the younger, the more less formed we are, the more we're likely to be defined by poverty or by disease or by alcoholism or by sexism or whatever the social constructs are into which we're born, as well as the psychodynamics of the family of origin.
当然，我们越年轻，越不成熟，我们就越有可能被贫穷、疾病、酗酒、性别歧视或任何我们出生的社会结构以及原生家庭的心理动力学所定义。
So in those circumstances, we all have a provisional sense of self.
所以在这种情况下，我们都有一种临时的自我意识。
And if you have a culture that says this is who you are, this is what your orders are, your marching orders, here's your script.
如果你有一种文化，说这就是你，这就是你的命令，你的行军命令，这就是你的剧本。
And the more authoritarian the culture, or the more traumatic one's environmental situation in a family of origin, the more...
文化越专制，或者原生家庭的环境状况越痛苦，就越……
Likely I'm going to be reacting to that.
我可能会对此做出反应。
So when I've had an experience, I'm either going to repeat it, or I'm going to try to run from it, or maybe I'll be spending my life trying to treat it in some way that I'm not aware of.
所以当我经历过一次经历时，我要么会重复它，要么我会尝试逃避它，或者也许我会花我的一生尝试以某种我不知道的方式来对待它。
This activates many people into the healing professions, by the way, whether it's clergy, nursing, therapy, etc., etc. That that's often a sensitive child in the family who feels, I have to try to stabilize my environment in order to...
顺便说一句，这促使许多人进入治疗行业，无论是神职人员、护理人员、治疗师等等。这通常是家里敏感的孩子觉得，我必须努力稳定我的环境，以便……
Sort of get things back to a normal state, whatever that might be.
让事情恢复到正常状态，无论是什么。
So that then it can be there for me.
这样它就可以为我服务。
But of course, that never quite happens.
但当然，这种情况永远不会发生。
You know, a child can't fix a parent, you see.
你知道，孩子无法修复父母。
And so many people in the helping professions are driven there by a powerful internalized message, which becomes their sense of self.
许多从事助人职业的人受到强大的内在信息的驱使，这成为他们的自我意识。
So it's a long-winded way of saying there's a distinction between the self, which is the natural organic development of this organism.
因此，这是一种冗长的说法，表明自我之间存在区别，这是这个有机体的自然有机发展。
You know, as we're speaking, it's growing our toenails.
你知道，就在我们说话的时候，我们的脚趾甲正在生长。
Digesting our breakfast, mentating, emoting, and so forth.
消化我们的早餐、思考、情绪化等等。
Most of that's autonomous activity.
其中大部分是自主活动。
It's kind of like the centipede, you know, you congratulate the centipede on how well he coordinates all of his legs and then he thinks, well, should I move this leg or this leg or this?
这有点像蜈蚣，你知道，你祝贺蜈蚣他所有的腿协调得很好，然后他想，好吧，我应该移动这条腿还是这条腿还是这条腿？
And he's immobilized.
他一动不动。
These are not functions that we govern consciously, although we can interrupt them consciously.
这些不是我们有意识地管理的功能，尽管我们可以有意识地打断它们。
But something is there taking care of us.
但有东西在照顾我们。
It's an organic unity.
这是一个有机的统一体。
And that's what Jung meant by the Self, capital S.
这就是荣格所说的“自我”，大写的“S”。
Our sense of self is a different matter.
我们的自我意识是另一回事。
And so one of the things that I've tried to emphasize in therapy is you're not what happened to you.
因此，我在治疗中试图强调的一件事是，你并不是发生在你身上的事情。
Because we tend to be bound to our story that says either that's who I am, that's what I'm defined by, or I'm spending my life trying to differentiate myself from that, get away from that, perhaps.
因为我们往往会被自己的故事所束缚，这个故事要么就是我，就是我被定义的，要么我一生都在努力使自己与众不同，也许远离它。
So, again, our sense of self is very provisional.
所以，再说一次，我们的自我意识是非常临时的。
It evolves.
它不断发展。
And in any given moment, there may be something in the unconscious that's triggered.
在任何特定时刻，潜意识中都可能有某些东西被触发。
And of course the problem with the unconscious, it's unconscious.
当然，无意识的问题是无意识的。
So I don't know that it's happened.
所以我不知道这件事已经发生了。
I have the unconscious triggered.
我的无意识被触发了。
It has the power to rise, take over provisionally.
它有权力崛起，暂时接管。
Spin out its program, and then after a while, you know, it recedes back into the unconscious.
旋转它的程序，然后过了一会儿，你知道，它又退回到无意识中。
And as I said, sometimes people will stop and say, well, I wonder what was behind that decision, or why did I choose that path, or what in me is blocking me from doing what I know is right for me.
正如我所说，有时人们会停下来说，好吧，我想知道这个决定背后的原因是什么，或者我为什么选择这条道路，或者我内心的什么阻碍了我做我知道对我来说正确的事情。
You know, as Paul said in the letter to the Romans, though I know the good, I do not do the good.
你知道，正如保罗在写给罗马人的信中所说，虽然我知道善，但我却不行善。
Well, why not?
嗯，为什么不呢？
Well, he saw it as insufficiency of will.
好吧，他认为这是意志力不足。
But we know it's more than that.
但我们知道它的意义远不止于此。
We know that there are unconscious factors at work that have a certain autonomy.
我们知道，存在着具有一定自主性的无意识因素在起作用。
And the more unconscious they are, the greater their autonomy will prove to be.
他们越无意识，他们的自主权就越大。
If they are unconscious and they're driving us sometimes into states.
如果他们失去意识，有时他们就会把我们带入状态。
Other times...
其他时候...
Traits.
特质。
I mean, and that's a, perhaps an interesting discussion in and of itself is, you know, when, what's the difference between a state of mind and body and a trait, but if it's unconscious.
我的意思是，这本身可能是一个有趣的讨论，你知道，当精神和身体的状态与特征之间有什么区别，但如果它是无意识的。
What chance do we stand to...
我们有什么机会...
Overcome these things.
克服这些事情。
I mean, what, where, how does the awareness come about?
我的意思是，意识是什么、在哪里、如何产生的？
Can we do it on our own?
我们可以自己做吗？
Does it require reflection from a trained professional?
是否需要训练有素的专业人员进行反思？
And if so, you know, when we become conscious of something, does that immediately flip a switch?
如果是这样，你知道，当我们意识到某件事时，会立即打开开关吗？
Or does it require constant returning to seeing and forcing the unconscious to become conscious over and over again?
或者它是否需要不断地回到看到并迫使无意识一遍又一遍地变得有意识？
Sure.
当然。
Well, those are great questions.
嗯，这些都是很好的问题。
First of all, again, none of us rises saying we're going to be counterproductive today, but we will because of the autonomy of those clusters of energy within us.
首先，再一次，我们没有人站起来说我们今天会适得其反，但我们会因为我们体内那些能量簇的自主性而这样做。
Now...
现在...
I've said to many people who've asked that question, well, start with your own life.
我对很多问过这个问题的人说过，好吧，从你自己的生活开始。
Look to the patterns that you have.
看看你所拥有的模式。
A pattern is an indication.
模式是一种指示。
Of some cluster of energy, whether it's outward or whether it's inward, that you're carrying with you.
你随身携带的某种能量簇，无论是外在的还是内在的。
And we don't do crazy things.
我们不做疯狂的事情。
We always do logical things.
我们总是做合乎逻辑的事情。
If we understand that what we're in service to intrapsychically.
如果我们了解我们的内心服务是什么。
I'll give you an example.
我给你举个例子。
I was working in a closed ward of a hospital many decades ago.
几十年前，我在一家医院的封闭病房里工作。
And it was a fellow repeatedly trying to break a window.
这是一个多次试图打破窗户的家伙。
People were assuming he was trying to escape or get a shard of glass for some nefarious purpose, and no one bothered to ask him why he was doing this.
人们猜测他是为了某种邪恶的目的而试图逃跑或获取一块玻璃碎片，但没有人费心去问他为什么要这样做。
And he said he had the delusion that he was, first of all, in a locked ward, so he was caught in a non-voluntary situation.
他说他有一种错觉，认为自己首先是在一个上锁的病房里，所以他陷入了非自愿的境地。
And in his psychosis, he felt that somebody was pumping air from the room.
在他的精神错乱中，他感觉有人正在从房间里抽出空气。
Now, if this door was locked and the air is being pumped out of this room, the most logical thing we would do is break through a window or break down the door.
现在，如果这扇门被锁住并且空气被抽出这个房间，我们会做的最合乎逻辑的事情就是打破窗户或打破门。
So his behavior was logical based on the premise.
所以他的行为基于前提是合乎逻辑的。
Now, the premise is often inaccurate or tied to one place but gets extrapolated to another one somewhere else.
现在，前提通常是不准确的，或者与一个地方相关，但会被推断到其他地方的另一个地方。
And then we are responding logically to that premise.
然后我们对这个前提做出合乎逻辑的回应。
So, you start with your own life, particularly the places where you find these are self-defeating behaviors or behaviors that are hurtful to you and someone else.
因此，你从自己的生活开始，特别是那些你发现这些行为是自毁行为或伤害你和他人的行为的地方。
And then you say, since that's not my conscious intention, and yet there it is as part of my history.
然后你说，因为那不是我的自觉意图，但它是我历史的一部分。
Then I have to say, all right, what is it within me that has the kind of power to take over my ego consciousness?
那么我不得不说，好吧，我内心到底是什么有能力接管我的自我意识？
Now, just to back off for a moment here, I think we're only conscious in the ego dealing with reality a few times during the course of a day.
现在，稍微退一步，我认为我们在一天中只有几次有意识地在自我中处理现实。
My favorite analogy is when you get up in the morning and you step in the shower, it's too hot or too cold, so you change the water temperature.
我最喜欢的比喻是，当你早上起床，走进淋浴间时，发现水太热或太冷，所以你改变水温。
Well, that's the ego in its proper function.
嗯，这就是自我的正常功能。
It's being adaptive to its reality.
它正在适应现实。
It's being protective at that moment.
这时候就起到了保护作用。
It's achieving the optimum situation for you.
它正在为您实现最佳状态。
But from the rest of time on, that same ego is flooded by other materials, some of which is conscious.
但从其余时间开始，同一个自我就会被其他材料淹没，其中一些是有意识的。
Who gets the kids today after school?
今天放学后谁来接孩子们？
How do I get to the work on time, etc.?
我怎样才能准时上班等等？
But underneath that are other drivers that have to do with fear-based responses or adaptive responses that were perhaps once protective.
但在这背后还有其他驱动因素，这些因素与基于恐惧的反应或可能曾经具有保护作用的适应性反应有关。
But later, you know, we weren't born with them, but we acquired them along life's highway.
但后来，你知道，我们并不是与生俱来的，而是我们在人生的道路上获得的。
So what was once protective often becomes constrictive later.
因此，曾经具有保护性的东西后来往往会变得具有限制性。
And creates those patterns.
并创造这些模式。
So number one, you start with your patterns.
所以第一，你从你的模式开始。
Secondly, and everyone sort of laughs at this, but there's a certain truth to this, you might talk to those around you, such as your spouse or your closest partner or your children.
其次，每个人都会嘲笑这一点，但这有一定的道理，您可能会与周围的人交谈，例如您的配偶或最亲密的伴侣或您的孩子。
And ask them about what they see in us, if you can bear to hear what they have to say.
如果您愿意听听他们的意见，请询问他们对我们的看法。
And to say, where is it you see me being hurtful to myself or others, or where is it that I get in your face in an inappropriate way?
并说，你在哪里看到我伤害了自己或他人，或者我在哪里以不恰当的方式当着你的面？
And they will usually have something to inform us with.
他们通常会告诉我们一些事情。
Thirdly, we pay attention to our dreams because we don't choose to dream.
第三，我们关注我们的梦想，因为我们没有选择梦想。
But sleep research tells us that we average about six dreams per night.
但睡眠研究告诉我们，我们平均每晚大约有 6 个梦。
That's a lot of activity.
这是很多活动。
Nature doesn't waste energy.
大自然不会浪费能源。
It's processing something.
它正在处理一些东西。
And it's not just processing.
而且这不仅仅是处理。
If we pay attention over time, you begin to realize it has a point of view.
如果我们随着时间的推移注意，你就会开始意识到它有一个观点。
Another way of putting this is the psyche, which is the term I would use here, and that's the Greek word for soul, by the way.
另一种表达方式是心灵，这是我在这里使用的术语，顺便说一句，这是希腊语中灵魂的意思。
The psyche has its own intentionality.
心灵有其自身的意向性。
It's omnipresent.
它无所不在。
And it's commenting.
并且正在评论。
And it comments in terms of our feeling function.
它根据我们的感觉功能进行评论。
You don't choose your feelings.
你无法选择自己的感受。
Feelings are autonomous responses to what has happened.
感受是对所发生事情的自主反应。
You can repress them, suppress them, anesthetize them, project them onto others, but you are in the end.
你可以压制它们、镇压它们、麻醉它们、将它们投射到别人身上，但最终还是你。
You know, a creature that has an autonomous feeling response.
你知道，这是一种具有自主感觉反应的生物。
Secondly, we have energy systems.
其次，我们有能源系统。
If I'm doing what's right for me, the energy's there.
如果我在做适合我的事情，那么能量就在那里。
The flow is there.
流量就在那里。
We can mobilize our energy, and we have to in life, to get up and feed the baby at two in the morning, or put in our 40-hour week, or whatever the requirements are.
我们可以调动我们的精力，在生活中我们也必须这样做，凌晨两点起床喂孩子，或者每周工作 40 小时，或者任何需要的东西。
But over time, forcing the energy system leads, as we know, to boredom and burnout and ultimately depression.
但正如我们所知，随着时间的推移，强迫能量系统会导致无聊和倦怠，最终导致抑郁。
Often with self-medication attached to that.
通常还伴有自我药疗。
Thirdly, we have dreams which comment.
第三，我们有评论的梦想。
Fourthly, most importantly, is the question of meaning.
第四，也是最重要的一点，就是意义问题。
If what we're doing is meaningful, as understood by the psyche, it will support us, even in the face of suffering and sacrifice and so forth.
如果我们所做的事情是有意义的，正如心灵所理解的那样，它就会支持我们，即使面对痛苦和牺牲等等。
If what we're doing is wrong, as seen by the psyche, then over time it begins to pathologize.
如果我们所做的事情是错误的，正如心灵所看到的那样，那么随着时间的推移，它就会开始病态化。
So you take that word psychopathology, literally from the Greek it means the expression of the suffering of the soul.
所以你采用“精神病理学”这个词，字面意思是希腊语，意思是灵魂痛苦的表达。
Which I think is revelatory.
我认为这是有启发性的。
The Expression of the Suffering of the Soul Now, that seems to me obligatory to take seriously.
灵魂痛苦的表达现在，在我看来，这似乎有必要认真对待。
If my soul, and again, that's a metaphor, you know, people look for the soul throughout history, and you can't find it in the pineal gland, for example.
如果我的灵魂，那是一个隐喻，你知道，人们在整个历史中寻找灵魂，但你无法在松果体中找到它。
The soul is a metaphor for the organic wisdom of that natural being that we are.
灵魂是我们自然存在的有机智慧的隐喻。
The soul is a metaphor for this purposeful expression of the organism.
灵魂是有机体有目的的表达的隐喻。
It is purposeful.
这是有目的的。
In other words, Question that...
换句话说，质疑...
Occupies all of us in childhood and throughout the first half of life at least, if not an entire lifetime.
它占据了我们所有人的童年和前半生，如果不是整个一生的话。
Is what does the world want of me?
世界想要我做什么？
What do my parents want from me?
我的父母想从我这里得到什么？
What do my school teacher want me?
我的学校老师要我做什么？
What do the playmates expect of me?
玩伴们对我有什么期望？
What does the partner want from me?
合作伙伴想从我这里得到什么？
What does the employer want?
雇主想要什么？
All of these are reality-based encounters with the demands of the environment.
所有这些都是基于现实与环境需求的遭遇。
And part of what we have to do is develop enough ego strength to create a provisional sense of self and a provisional functional self.
我们要做的一部分就是培养足够的自我力量，以创造临时的自我意识和临时的功能性自我。
To deal with those expectations.
应对这些期望。
But then when you've done that, you know, why are you still here?
但当你这样做之后，你知道为什么你还在这里吗？
What's the purpose?
目的是什么？
Are you simply here to be a creature of adaptations?
你来这里只是为了成为一个适应的生物吗？
Now, without those adaptations, we would be overwhelmed, typically, by the circumstances of our lives.
现在，如果没有这些适应，我们通常会被我们的生活环境压垮。
So we accommodate them in some way.
所以我们以某种方式容纳他们。
But in the second half of life, and I'm using a term very loosely, The real question is, what does the soul want of me?
但在生命的后半段，我非常宽松地使用这个术语，真正的问题是，灵魂想要我做什么？
What does the psyche want of me?
心灵想要我做什么？
That's a different question.
这是一个不同的问题。
Then the issue comes up, what is it that is wishing expression in the world through me?
那么问题来了，通过我向世界表达的愿望是什么？
That's a different question than what does the world ask of me.
这与世界对我的要求不同。
The people that we would most admire in history are people who in some way found and lived out what the soul was asking of them.
历史上我们最钦佩的人是那些以某种方式发现并实现了灵魂对他们的要求的人。
It didn't spare them from suffering, sometimes even martyrdom.
这并没有使他们免受痛苦，有时甚至是殉道。
It doesn't spare you from conflict and pain, maybe isolation, maybe exile, but you're fed by the purposefulness of it.
它不会让你免受冲突和痛苦，也许是孤立，也许是流放，但你会被它的目的所滋养。
Take that away and life is pretty empty.
把它拿走，生活就会变得空虚。
And of course we live in a culture where there's this enormous barrage of external stimuli.
当然，我们生活在一个充满大量外部刺激的文化中。
Well, buy this, purchase that, do this or that, the latest thing and this or that, the newest shiny thing.
好吧，买这个，买那个，做这个或那个，最新的东西，这个或那个，最新的闪亮的东西。
And the more I'm seeking to define myself through that environmental summons...
我越是寻求通过环境召唤来定义自己……
The more likely I'm going to be estranged from something inside.
我越有可能与内心的某些东西疏远。
All of us know it, but we don't know what to do about that at some level.
我们所有人都知道这一点，但在某种程度上我们不知道该怎么办。
And typically it has to hurt enough inside to bring a person into therapy.
通常情况下，人们的内心必须受到足够的伤害才能接受治疗。
People don't just walk in and say, well, I was in the neighborhood, and I thought I'd pop in and talk to a total stranger.
人们不会只是走进来说，好吧，我就在附近，我想我应该进去和一个完全陌生的人交谈。
Pay him some money and then walk out as a different person.
付给他一些钱，然后像另一个人一样走出去。
It doesn't work that way.
事实并非如此。
I've often said to people, this is not about curing you because you're not a disease.
我经常对人们说，这不是为了治愈你，因为你不是一种疾病。
This is about...
这是关于...
Making your life more interesting.
让您的生活更有趣。
Where you realize every morning you get up, you have something profound to address today.
每天早上起床时你都会意识到，今天你有一些深刻的事情需要解决。
Why am I here and in service to what?
我为什么在这里并为了什么服务？
Because if you don't ask that question, you're going to be in service to your adaptive postures from childhood.
因为如果你不问这个问题，你就会从童年开始为你的适应性姿势服务。
As many people prove to be, until the conflict within reaches that point where the suffering of the soul, psychopathology, is sufficient.
正如许多人所证明的那样，直到内心的冲突达到灵魂的痛苦、精神病理学的程度就足够了。
I myself was cruising along in my 30s.
我自己在30多岁的时候就在闲逛。
I'd achieved everything that I wanted to achieve.
我已经实现了我想要实现的一切。
And was enjoying my life, and then suddenly, inexplicably, had a very serious depression.
我正在享受我的生活，然后突然莫名其妙地患上了非常严重的抑郁症。
And it took me a while to realize that I was asking the wrong question.
我花了一段时间才意识到我问了错误的问题。
The first question that occurs to a person under those circumstances is, how quickly do I get rid of this?
在这种情况下，人们想到的第一个问题是，我要多快才能摆脱这种情况？
Give me five easy steps or a pill for that or whatever.
给我五个简单的步骤或者一片药丸之类的。
I didn't understand.
我不明白。
The real question is, why has your psyche autonomously withdrawn its approval and support?
真正的问题是，为什么你的心灵自动撤回了它的认可和支持？
From the agenda that you've been addressing.
从你一直在讨论的议程来看。
It was a good agenda.
这是一个很好的议程。
There was nothing wrong with it, but there was something else that was missing in this process.
本来并没有什么问题，只是这个过程中还缺少了一些东西。
And it took a depression, like something from below reached up and pulled me down.
我感到一阵沮丧，就像有什么东西从下面伸手把我拉下来。
Something was being pressed down.
有什么东西被压下去了。
That's depression.
这就是抑郁症。
And at the bottom of that well, there's always a task.
在这口井的底部，总是有一个任务。
There's always an issue.
总有一个问题。
The identification of which can lead one into a new place in one's life, a different journey.
对其的认同可以引导一个人进入生活中的一个新的地方，一段不同的旅程。
In my case, it led me to...
就我而言，它导致我...
Leave a very fine...
留下一个非常好的...
Tenured position in academia.
在学术界享有终身职位。
I traveled to Switzerland and spent several years there in retraining as a psychoanalyst.
我去了瑞士，在那里花了几年时间接受精神分析师的再培训。
And I now look upon that depression as beneficent, but at the time, I certainly didn't, as you can imagine.
我现在认为这种抑郁症是有益的，但在当时，我当然没有，正如你可以想象的那样。
I'd like to take a brief break and acknowledge our sponsor, AG1.
我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商 AG1。
By now, most of you have heard me tell my story about how I've been taking AG1 once or twice a day, every day since 2012.
到目前为止，你们中的大多数人都已经听过我讲述了我如何每天服用一两次 AG1 的故事，自 2012 年以来，每天都服用 AG1。
And indeed, that's true.
确实如此。
I started taking AG1 and I still take AG1 once or twice a day because it gives me vitamins and minerals that I might not be getting enough of from whole foods that I eat, as well as adaptogens and micronutrients.
我开始服用 AG1，现在仍然每天服用一到两次，因为它为我提供了我可能无法从我吃的天然食物中获取的维生素和矿物质，以及适应原和微量营养素。
And those adaptogens and micronutrients are really critical because even though I strive to eat Most of my foods from unprocessed or minimally processed whole foods, it's often hard to do so, especially when I'm traveling and especially when I'm busy.
这些适应原和微量营养素非常重要，因为尽管我努力吃未经加工或最低限度加工的天然食品中的大部分食物，但通常很难做到这一点，尤其是当我在旅行时，尤其是当我很忙时。
So by drinking a packet of AG1 in the morning and oftentimes also again in the afternoon or evening, I'm ensuring that I'm getting everything I need.
因此，通过早上喝一包 AG1，并且经常在下午或晚上再喝一次，我可以确保获得我需要的一切。
I'm covering all of my foundational nutritional needs.
我满足了我所有的基本营养需求。
And I, like so many other people that take AG1 regularly, just report feeling better.
我和许多其他定期服用 AG1 的人一样，只是报告感觉好多了。
And that shouldn't be surprising because it supports gut health, and of course, gut health supports immune system health and brain health, and it's supporting a ton of different cellular and organ processes that all interact with one another.
这并不奇怪，因为它支持肠道健康，当然，肠道健康支持免疫系统健康和大脑健康，并且它支持大量相互相互作用的不同细胞和器官过程。
So while certain supplements are really directed towards one specific outcome, like sleeping better or being more alert, AG1 really is foundational nutritional support.
因此，虽然某些补充剂确实针对一种特定的结果，例如睡得更好或更加警觉，但 AG1 确实是基础营养支持。
It's really designed to support all of the systems of your brain and body that relate to mental health and physical health.
它的真正目的是支持与心理健康和身体健康相关的大脑和身体的所有系统。
If you'd like to try AG1, you can go to drinkag1.com slash Huberman to claim a special offer.
如果您想尝试 AG1，您可以访问 Drinkag1.comlash Huberman 以获得特别优惠。
They'll give you five free travel packs with your order, plus a year supply of vitamin D3K2.
您订购后，他们将赠送 5 个免费旅行套装，以及一年的维生素 D3K2 供应量。
Again, that's drinkag1.com slash Huberman.
再说一遍，这是 Drinkag1.com 斜线 Huberman。
So if our...
所以如果我们的...
Task is to get in touch with this kind of yearning of the soul to perhaps do some reparative work from our childhood, or at least understand our parent-child relationships.
任务就是接触到这种心灵的向往，也许可以做一些弥补我们童年的工作，或者至少了解我们的亲子关系。
And then in an ideal circumstance to express ourselves through some higher calling, if you will, but higher meaning for us or for the world, hopefully both.
然后在理想的情况下，通过一些更高的使命来表达自己，如果你愿意的话，但对我们或世界来说都有更高的意义，希望两者都是。
That would be ideal.
那将是理想的。
In terms of the day, you said you can wake up in the morning, presumably some of the residual thought processes and emotions from a dream.
就白天而言，你说早上能醒来，想必是梦中残留的一些思维过程和情绪。
Or dreams still live within us early in the day.
或者梦想在清晨仍然存在于我们的内心。
And then we start going about our day doing the practical things, making the cup of coffee, drinking the water, getting some sunshine, these sorts of things.
然后我们开始一天的生活，做一些实际的事情，泡杯咖啡，喝水，晒晒太阳，诸如此类的事情。
How is it that...
怎么会这样……
The typical person, any of us can think about segmenting our thinking and our actions in a way that we're touching into the deeper meaning of life while also carrying out a life.
作为典型的人，我们中的任何人都可以考虑分割我们的思想和行动，以便我们在实践生活的同时触及生活的更深层意义。
Because as you know, and I know, and everybody listening and watching knows that there's stuff to do.
因为正如你所知，我也知道，每个聆听和观看的人都知道有事情要做。
We need to often get an education, make a living, tend to people around us, tend to ourselves.
我们需要经常接受教育、谋生、照顾我们周围的人、照顾我们自己。
And it becomes a kind of a...
它变成了一种...
Neuroscience problem in my mind, right?
我脑子里有神经科学问题，对吧？
You know, different brain circuitries for different types of thinking.
你知道，不同的大脑回路负责不同类型的思维。
And if I may, I think it also becomes a time perception problem.
如果可以的话，我认为这也成为一个时间感知问题。
You know, the brain, the human brain to me is so magnificent at setting milestones that are like, get in the shower, finish the shower.
你知道，大脑，对我来说，人类的大脑非常擅长设定里程碑，比如，洗澡，洗完澡。
Check the text messages, talk to somebody and get about the day.
查看短信，与某人交谈并了解这一天。
The milestones become very close in.
里程碑变得非常接近。
If we're lucky enough to be able to take a walk and reflect, put the phone away, et cetera, then our mind can expand into, you know, gosh, why am I here?
如果我们足够幸运，能够散步并反思，把手机收起来等等，那么我们的思想就可以扩展到，你知道，天哪，我为什么在这里？
You know, what about my, that thing my grandfather said to me or my grandmother said to me?
你知道，我的祖父对我说的或者我祖母对我说的那件事呢？
And, you know, that the ability to place our perception in larger or smaller time bins seems very closely linked to all of this.
而且，你知道，将我们的感知置于更大或更小的时间区间的能力似乎与所有这一切密切相关。
And to the sense of mortality, which we'll certainly talk about in a little bit, but in a kind of a practical way.
至于死亡感，我们肯定会稍微讨论一下，但以一种实用的方式。
In the absence of a daily therapy session.
在没有每日治疗的情况下。
How do you suggest people start to segment or compartmentalize in a way that's functional?
您如何建议人们开始以实用的方式进行细分或划分？
For instance, should people set aside 15 minutes each morning to just think about why they're on this earth and why they're doing and what they're doing as opposed to just doing?
例如，人们是否应该每天早上留出 15 分钟来思考他们为什么来到这个地球上、为什么他们在做什么以及他们在做什么，而不是只是做事？
Sure.
当然。
Well, this is a central problem of our time is everybody is going to say, I don't have time for that.
嗯，这是我们这个时代的一个核心问题，每个人都会说，我没有时间。
I had a colleague, now deceased, Marian Woodman in Toronto, who used to say to her clients, you have to guarantee me one hour per day that you reflect on your dreams or you journal in terms of what's going on in your life.
我有一位多伦多的同事，现已去世，玛丽安·伍德曼 (Marian Woodman)，她曾经对她的客户说，你必须向我保证，每天有一小时的时间来反思你的梦想，或者记录你生活中发生的事情。
And she said, always people say, I don't have time for that.
她说，人们总是说，我没有时间。
Then she said, then you don't have time for therapy.
然后她说，那你就没有时间接受治疗了。
You're not making any priority here for this.
你在这里没有优先考虑这一点。
And you're right.
你是对的。
Wordsworth wrote in 1802, the world is too much with us, getting and spending we lay waste our powers.
华兹华斯在 1802 年写道，世界对我们来说太多了，我们的获取和支出浪费了我们的力量。
This is 1802, before the internet, right?
这是 1802 年，互联网出现之前，对吗？
With all of its claims upon us.
连同它对我们的所有要求。
There's such a noisy din around us, we're all distracted by that, you see.
我们周围的喧闹声如此之大，我们都因此分心，你看。
That's why it usually takes a crisis in a marriage or depression or whatever the case may be to get people to pull out of that and reflect upon that.
这就是为什么通常需要经历婚姻危机或抑郁症或其他任何情况才能让人们摆脱困境并进行反思。
So I spend 15 minutes every morning before starting just meditating, particularly working on a dream if I've had a dream.
因此，我每天早上都会花 15 分钟，然后开始冥想，特别是如果我已经做了一个梦的话，就会努力实现一个梦想。
And secondly, I reflect on things in the evening too, because one of the things we want to try to do is to say, What are the stories I'm living here?
其次，我也会在晚上反思一些事情，因为我们想做的事情之一就是说，我住在这里的故事是什么？
You know, one of them, I've got to earn a living.
你知道，其中之一，我必须谋生。
One of them, I've got to do this.
其中之一，我必须这样做。
In other words, I have to do that, you see.
换句话说，我必须这样做，你看。
But what's all of that frenzy about, you see?
但你明白，这一切到底是为了什么？
That's why I think the first half of life, and I say this.
所以我才会想到前半生，才会这么说。
Semi-humorously is a huge and unavoidable mistake because we're living just reactively.
半幽默是一个巨大且不可避免的错误，因为我们只是被动地生活。
You see, it's not generative.
你看，这不是生成性的。
It's reacting to whatever is going on around us.
它对我们周围发生的任何事情做出反应。
Is one's entire life to be spent reacting to things?
难道人的一生都要花在对事物做出反应上吗？
Now, when you're young, there's only so much ego strength to reflect upon this.
现在，当你年轻的时候，只有这么多的自我力量来反思这一点。
A number of years ago, I was asked to give a talk to an advanced group of college students at a university.
几年前，我被邀请在一所大学为一群先进的大学生做演讲。
On the psychodynamics of love.
论爱情的心理动力学。
Well, they were all interested about love, I can tell you, right?
好吧，我可以告诉你，他们都对爱情感兴趣，对吗？
So it was a three-hour seminar.
这是一个三小时的研讨会。
So for the first 90 minutes, we talked about projection, transference, all these.
所以在前 90 分钟，我们谈论了投射、移情，所有这些。
They got it.
他们明白了。
They were smart kids.
他们都是聪明的孩子。
And then we took a short break.
然后我们休息了一会儿。
When we came back, I said, now let's apply these ideas to your current or recent relationships.
当我们回来时，我说，现在让我们将这些想法应用到你当前或最近的关系中。
It was like the curtain came down.
就像帷幕落下一样。
You know, they were 19, 20, 21, 22 in that area.
你知道，他们在那个地区分别是 19 岁、20 岁、21 岁、22 岁。
They couldn't bear, they could get the idea, but they couldn't bear to look at themselves with that kind of scrutiny.
他们无法忍受，他们可以明白这个想法，但他们无法忍受用那样的审视来审视自己。
Flash forward 20 years when they're 40 and their marriage just dissolved or, you know, the relationship has hardships of one kind or another, they're much more likely to be able to, A, have enough ego strength to bear looking at oneself.
快进 20 年，当他们 40 岁时，他们的婚姻刚刚破裂，或者，你知道，这段关系经历了这样或那样的困难，他们更有可能，A，有足够的自我力量来承受审视自己。
Secondly, there's enough life experience to reflect upon.
其次，有足够的人生经历可供反思。
Because this kind of work takes courage in the first place.
因为这种工作首先需要勇气。
I have to be able to bear to look at myself and see what's there, which won't always be pretty.
我必须能够忍受审视自己，看看那里有什么，这并不总是那么美好。
And secondly, it's humbling.
其次，它令人谦卑。
Because this is not about feeling great.
因为这并不是为了感觉良好。
It's about being called to accountability, which is a whole different matter.
这是关于被要求承担责任，这是完全不同的事情。
To be an adult is not just to have a big body, it's to know that I'm accountable for what's spilling into the world through me.
成为一个成年人不仅仅是拥有一个庞大的身体，而是要知道我对通过我渗透到世界上的事情负责。
Jung said once in one of those telling statements that haunts me in a constructive way.
荣格在其中一次以建设性的方式困扰着我的有说服力的陈述中说过一次。
He said the greatest burden a child must bear is the unlived life of the parent.
他说，孩子必须承受的最大负担是父母未经历过的生活。
So where I'm stuck as a person.
所以我作为一个人被困住了。
My children will be stuck, or they'll be spending their life trying to get unstuck, you see.
你看，我的孩子们将会陷入困境，或者他们将花费一生的时间试图摆脱困境。
So the best thing I can do for them is to model for them, you know, a life lived with as much courage as I can mobilize, and as much integrity as I can manage.
因此，我能为他们做的最好的事情就是为他们树立榜样，让他们过上尽我所能的勇气和尽我所能的正直的生活。
And in doing that, it not only models, it gives permission to them.
在这样做的过程中，它不仅为他们建模，还为他们提供了许可。
One of the things I've found for many people is they don't really feel permission.
我发现很多人的一件事是他们并没有真正感受到许可。
To feel what they feel, desire what they desire, go out and fight for what matters to them.
感受他们的感受，渴望他们渴望的东西，走出去，为对他们重要的事情而奋斗。
Because life we learn early is conditional.
因为我们早年学习的生活是有条件的。
You will be acceptable in this family.
你会被这个家庭所接受的。
You will perhaps be loved.
也许你会被爱。
You'll be rewarded or you'll be punished.
你会得到奖励，或者你会受到惩罚。
If you meet these conditions.
如果你满足这些条件。
And if you don't meet the conditions, a lot of people put conditions.
如果你不满足条件，很多人都会提出条件。
On their children, you know?
他们的孩子，你知道吗？
A lot of people are still living through their children.
很多人仍然通过他们的孩子生活。
You know, forgive the joke here, there's an old joke about Jewish mothers.
你知道，请原谅这里的笑话，有一个关于犹太母亲的老笑话。
The fetus is not considered full term until it's graduated from medical school.
胎儿从医学院毕业后才被视为足月。
You see, and that's a joke about a cultural expectation.
你看，这是一个关于文化期望的笑话。
And carrying someone else's unfinished business.
并承担别人未完成的事业。
In a way in which, you know, is to make them feel good, rather than serve what is wanting expression through you, which is quite a different matter.
你知道，在某种程度上，是让他们感觉良好，而不是服务于那些想要通过你表达的东西，这是完全不同的事情。
So one of the things one has to do is seize permission to realize life is short.
因此，一个人必须做的一件事就是获得许可，认识到生命是短暂的。
We're here a very brief time, and the summons is to live your journey as honestly as you can.
我们在这里的时间很短，我们的召唤是尽可能诚实地度过你的旅程。
And when you do, it ultimately serves other people.
当你这样做时，它最终会服务于其他人。
It's not selfish.
这并不自私。
It's actually serving the self, if you will.
如果你愿意的话，这实际上是在为自我服务。
It's not narcissistic.
这不是自恋。
It's not self-absorption.
这不是自我陶醉。
It's actually humbling.
这实际上是令人谦卑的。
I would never imagine as a child that I would spend my adult life listening to people's suffering.
我小时候从未想过我会在成年后倾听人们的痛苦。
And yet that's my day job.
但这就是我的日常工作。
And I'm humbled to be invited into the lives of other people.
我很荣幸被邀请进入其他人的生活。
It's profoundly meaningful.
其意义深远。
I can't imagine living without that.
我无法想象没有它的生活。
At the same time...
同时...
It's not fun.
这并不好玩。
It's not pleasant.
这并不令人愉快。
But it's profoundly meaningful.
但它的意义却是深远的。
That's the distinction.
这就是区别。
That's why of those various sources of insight that we can have into our lives, you have to ask about what is most meaningful to me.
这就是为什么在我们对生活的洞察力的各种来源中，你必须问什么对我来说最有意义。
As defined by the psyche, not by the culture around you.
由心灵定义，而不是由你周围的文化定义。
Because what the culture says, it's all about being successful.
因为按照文化所说，一切都是为了成功。
It's all about making money.
一切都是为了赚钱。
It's about living in this neighborhood.
这是关于住在这个街区的事情。
It's about buying that object.
这是关于购买那个物体。
And if that worked, we would know it.
如果这有效，我们就会知道。
It obviously doesn't.
显然不是。
That's what brings us back to that humbling moment that maybe I'm not living my life.
这就是让我们回到那个谦卑时刻的原因，也许我没有过自己的生活。
Sir, in Kierkegaard, the Danish theologian in Copenhagen in the 19th century, he talked about a man who was...
先生，在 19 世纪哥本哈根的丹麦神学家克尔凯郭尔那里，他谈到了一个人……
Shocked to find his name in the obituary column, and he hadn't realized he'd died.
震惊地发现他的名字出现在讣告栏中，他没有意识到自己已经死了。
Because he hadn't realized that he was here in the first place.
因为他一开始并没有意识到自己在这里。
Now, this is Kierkegaard talking in the middle of the 19th century.
这是克尔凯郭尔在 19 世纪中叶所说的。
Think about the ramping up of the stimuli around us, the steady drum.
想想我们周围刺激的增强，稳定的鼓声。
Among young people, you take away their cell phone, they experience enormous anxiety because this is their link to the world, and yet it's constantly making demands upon them.
在年轻人中，你拿走他们的手机，他们会感到巨大的焦虑，因为这是他们与世界的联系，但它却不断地对他们提出要求。
So, again, underneath all of this is we have an appointment with our own souls.
所以，再说一次，在这一切的背后，我们与自己的灵魂有一个约会。
And the question is...
问题是...
Are you going to show up for the appointment?
你会去赴约吗？
And I thought I had, but my psyche thought otherwise, so it was in the midst of a serious depression that I began showing up.
我以为我已经做到了，但我的内心却不这么认为，所以我是在严重抑郁的时候开始出现的。
And it was a difficult process, but ultimately proved to be, I think, transformative.
这是一个艰难的过程，但我认为最终被证明是具有变革性的。
I certainly agree that hardship For better or worse is often the way that these things stimulate the self-reflection that's required for change.
我当然同意，无论好坏，困难往往是这些事情激发变革所需的自我反思的方式。
There seems to be a...
似乎有一个...
Tricky situation whereby on the one hand I'm hearing, and I agree that it all starts with being very honest with oneself about what one really wants.
一方面我听到了棘手的情况，并且我同意这一切都始于对自己真正想要什么非常诚实。
And I love and thank you for mentioning this 15 minutes in the early part of the day, perhaps ideally 15 minutes at the end of the day where one takes time away from input from others of any form electronic or otherwise to just reflect on what's inside and the messages coming up through dreams.
我喜欢并感谢你在一天早些时候提到这 15 分钟，也许理想的情况是在一天结束时的 15 分钟，人们可以从任何形式的电子或其他形式的其他人的输入中抽出时间来思考里面的内容以及通过梦境出现的信息。
Reflection, et cetera.
反思等。
So important.
如此重要。
And may I just add another thing?
我可以添加另一件事吗？
Forgive the interruption, but I've often said to individuals, it's not so much what you believe, feel, or do.
请原谅打扰，但我经常对人们说，重要的不是你的信念、感受或行为。
It's what it's in service to inside of you.
这就是它为你内心服务的东西。
That's an important distinction.
这是一个重要的区别。
So I may think I've done a good thing when it's really an old codependence, or it's a way of avoiding conflict, or it's a fear-driven response.
所以我可能会认为我做了一件好事，但实际上这是一种古老的相互依赖，或者这是一种避免冲突的方式，或者是一种恐惧驱动的反应。
We have to always be asking, but what was that in service to inside of me?
我们必须一直问，但这对我内心有什么用呢？
And you may not know at first, but you keep asking the question, and it'll start rising to the surface.
一开始你可能不知道，但你不断地问这个问题，它就会开始浮出水面。
You begin to recognize that.
你开始认识到这一点。
That's how we begin to identify some of those internal drivers that we call the complexes.
这就是我们如何开始识别一些我们称之为复合体的内部驱动因素。
Because again, they're clusters of energy.
因为它们又是能量簇。
With the power to create a provisional personality.
具有创造临时人格的力量。
And many times people are identified with their complex.
很多时候，人们都认同自己的情结。
That's who I am.
这就是我。
I am what I do.
我就是我所做的。
I am my performance.
我就是我的表演。
Rather than beneath all of this is a human being who is...
而在这一切之下的是一个人类……
Wandering through life, afraid of dying, trying to avoid pain as much as possible, and hoping that someone's going to step in and make it all right.
在生活中徘徊，害怕死亡，试图尽可能避免痛苦，并希望有人能够介入并让一切恢复正常。
I'm certainly familiar with the feeling of recognizing what I want, but being...
我当然熟悉那种认识到自己想要什么的感觉，但是……
Afraid that if I were to express that, that it would not, would not be accepted.
害怕如果我表达出来，那不会，不会被接受。
And that certainly can create problems.
这肯定会产生问题。
I'm also familiar with recognizing what I want and stating it very clearly.
我也很擅长识别自己想要什么并非常清楚地表达出来。
And some people, fortunately, responding well.
幸运的是，有些人反应良好。
But I think...
但我认为...
It's fair to say, at least based on my experience, that when we are really honest with ourselves and with others, it doesn't always land well, right?
公平地说，至少根据我的经验，当我们真正对自己和他人诚实时，结果并不总是很好，对吧？
I mean, I pay a lot of attention, probably too much to messaging on Social Media in the landscape of science and health.
我的意思是，我非常关注科学和健康领域社交媒体上的消息，可能太多了。
It's just kind of the world I live in much of the time these days.
这就是我现在大部分时间生活的世界。
And what I noticed is that there's a real gravitational pull.
我注意到存在真正的引力。
Of people to, let's call them whatever they are, influencers, public figures, that are just very clear about who they are.
对于那些非常清楚自己是谁的人，我们可以称呼他们为有影响力的人、公众人物，无论他们是谁。
At least in their own self-perception.
至少在他们自己的认知中是这样。
But then herein lies the twist, it seems, is that what I'm hearing is that often our self-perception is not.
但这里似乎存在一个转折点，那就是我所听到的是，我们的自我认知往往并非如此。
Accurate.
准确的。
That's correct.
这是正确的。
And it's almost futile to try and convince people that we are who we believe we are, right?
试图让人们相信我们就是我们所相信的我们几乎是徒劳的，对吧？
And I have a theory that's emerging.
我有一个正在出现的理论。
It's not a formal theory that the internet and in particular Social Media is borderline.
互联网，特别是社交媒体处于边缘状态，这并不是一个正式的理论。
It weaves back and forth between sane and psychotic as if a borderline person would projecting either adoration.
它在理智和精神病之间来回穿梭，就好像一个边缘人会投射出任何一种崇拜。
Or total disgust.
或者完全厌恶。
And I warn anybody now, including myself, if you're going on Social Media, you're interacting with a borderline.
我现在警告任何人，包括我自己，如果你使用社交媒体，那么你就是在与边缘人互动。
Organism.
生物。
So you need to be prepared to be told in various ways, sometimes subtle, sometimes overt, that you're terrible.
所以你需要做好准备，别人会以各种方式（有时是微妙的，有时是公开的）告诉你，你很糟糕。
And you also need to be prepared for immense reward and being told that you're spectacular simply by being there.
而且你还需要做好准备，接受巨大的奖励，并被告知你只要在那里就很了不起。
That's what it is to interact with a borderline person.
这就是与边缘人互动的意义。
And there's no controlling or predicting their flips.
而且无法控制或预测他们的翻转。
So in any event, that's a little theory that's emerging.
所以无论如何，这只是一个正在出现的小理论。
Why wouldn't it be that way?
为什么不会是这样呢？
You're the psychologist, but why wouldn't it be that way?
你是心理学家，但为什么不是那样呢？
Because ultimately Social Media is the emergent property of all these individuals.
因为最终社交媒体是所有这些人的新兴财产。
Okay.
好的。
So you I made it clear how one way to anchor to the self and get in touch with what's really going on inside, reflecting on dreams, reflecting on what geysers to the surface, journaling, perhaps meditation.
所以你我明确了如何一种方法来锚定自我并接触内心真正发生的事情，反思梦想，反思表面的间歇泉，写日记，也许是冥想。
Ideally twice a day, perhaps therapy as well would be ideal.
最好每天两次，也许治疗也是理想的选择。
But then we move about our day and we do our best to be the best version of ourselves.
但随后我们开始生活，尽最大努力成为最好的自己。
Right.
正确的。
And when we get positive feedback, we tend to, I think as, you know, neurobiological, psychological organisms do more of that.
当我们得到积极的反馈时，我认为神经生物学、心理有机体往往会做更多这样的事情。
Do more of that.
多做一些这样的事情。
And it's sort of a bank account of sorts.
它有点像银行账户。
We're going for a net positive balance.
我们将实现净正平衡。
And we tend to do less of the things that give us negative feedback.
我们往往会少做那些会给我们带来负面反馈的事情。
Except perhaps go to Social Media where people seem to go on there specifically for friction based interactions as well, which is its own thing.
除了社交媒体之外，人们似乎还专门为了基于摩擦的互动而去那里，这是它自己的事情。
So as we move through life, first half of life, second half of life, how is it that we can orient in time, as I kind of put it before, how can we carry out these daily or weekly or maybe daily?
那么当我们走过人生的前半生、后半生时，我们如何能够及时定位，正如我之前所说的，我们如何每天或每周或也许每天都进行这些？
Yearly reflections in a way that really serves us well.
每年一次的反思对我们来说确实很有帮助。
I mean, do you recommend one day a week stepping away from everything?
我的意思是，你是否建议每周有一天远离一切？
Do you recommend doing retreats of sort?
你建议进行某种静修吗？
Do you recommend that people keep a life journal?
你建议人们写生活日记吗？
Is the story and seeing how one story evolves, is this useful?
故事以及观察一个故事如何演变，这有用吗？
What I'm trying to do here is kind of orient people to some practical tools because I think at some level- we can get pulled down currents of any kind.
我在这里试图做的是引导人们使用一些实用的工具，因为我认为在某种程度上 - 我们可以降低任何类型的电流。
That's right.
这是正确的。
And ideally we, we, you know, stay out of deep pathology, but even if we hit the rumble strips and go back over and over again, this is, this is important work, right?
理想情况下，我们，我们，你知道，远离深层病理学，但即使我们遇到隆隆声并一遍又一遍地返回，这就是，这是重要的工作，对吧？
This is, this is about being the best version of ourselves and society benefits from that.
也就是说，这是关于成为最好的自己，社会从中受益。
So are there more macroscopic things that we can do?
那么我们还有哪些更宏观的事情可以做呢？
Or is it just a daily chip away to meditations?
或者这只是每天冥想的一小部分？
Ideally therapy journal and just anchor down.
理想的情况是写治疗日记，然后就锚定下来。
Do we ever get to relax?
我们能放松一下吗？
Well, of course, of course.
嗯，当然，当然。
First of all, there's no formula that's applicable to everybody and their life circumstances.
首先，没有一个公式适用于每个人及其生活环境。
You know, the word psychotherapy literally means from the Greek to listen to or pay attention to the soul.
你知道，心理治疗这个词的字面意思来自希腊语，倾听或关注灵魂。
However you go about doing that is right for you.
不管怎样，你都会去做适合你的事情。
It's up to you to figure that out.
由你来解决这个问题。
And for some people, it'll be working in nature.
对于某些人来说，它本质上是有效的。
For others, it'll be working with their hands.
对于其他人来说，这将是用手工作。
For others, it'll be through some creative enterprise or working with their dreams or meditating or whatever.
对于其他人来说，这将是通过一些创造性的事业或为他们的梦想而努力或冥想或其他什么。
I would say whatever helps you step out of the stimulus response, stimulus response melee that we call our daily life.
我想说的是，只要能帮助你摆脱我们所说的日常生活中的刺激反应、刺激反应混战，就可以了。
Is likely to be helpful to you, either because you rest and you restore the psyche, and or you have some reflection upon it.
可能对你有帮助，要么因为你休息并恢复了精神，要么你对此进行了一些反思。
You recollect yourself as it is, right?
你还记得自己本来的样子，对吗？
You remember the self because we get unraveled.
你记得自我，因为我们被解开了。
I often have the feeling of getting unraveled in life where you know this calls you and this calls you and this calls you and that calls you and you're just pulling you away work from from some center here and again this is not about self absorption But if I'm not in connection with something abiding here.
我经常有一种在生活中被解开的感觉，你知道这个在召唤你，这个在召唤你，这个在召唤你，那个在召唤你，而你只是把你从这里的某个中心拉出来，这不是自我专注，而是如果我与居住在这里的东西没有联系。
My behaviors or choices there are not going to be very helpful in the long run, you see.
你看，从长远来看，我的行为或选择不会很有帮助。
They're going to be merely responsive to the demands of the environmental circumstances.
他们只会对环境条件的要求做出反应。
One thing I enjoy doing from time to time is drawing.
我时不时喜欢做的一件事就是画画。
I like doing anatomical drawings and things of that sort.
我喜欢画解剖图之类的东西。
And I find that if I engage in an activity that absorbs all of my attention, even though I have zero...
我发现，如果我从事一项吸引我所有注意力的活动，即使我的注意力为零……
Minus one aspirations of becoming a commercial artist or something of that sort, that two things happen.
减去成为一名商业艺术家或类似人物的愿望，就会发生两件事。
One, I exit the stimulus response world.
第一，我退出刺激反应世界。
And at the same time, it's inevitable that some insight comes later.
与此同时，不可避免地会出现一些后来的见解。
That's right.
这是正确的。
What is that?
那是什么？
Well, see, I think that's a good example, though, as you said, of exiting the stimulus-response cycle, because in that moment, something in your psyche rises to express itself through you.
嗯，你看，我认为这是一个很好的例子，正如你所说，退出刺激-反应循环，因为在那一刻，你心灵中的某些东西会通过你来表达自己。
And, you know, it's your drawing.
而且，你知道，这是你的画。
We could perhaps read that drawing and perhaps interpret something of it.
我们也许可以阅读那幅画，也许可以解释其中的一些内容。
You know, like the famous Rorschach, for example.
你知道，例如著名的罗夏墨迹测验。
I mean, Rorschach's an inkblot.
我的意思是，罗夏墨迹是一个墨迹。
When's an inkblot not an inkblot?
什么时候墨迹不是墨迹？
Well, when I confabulate a response to it, you see, and that response is indicative of what is going on inside of me.
好吧，当我对它做出回应时，你看，这个回应表明了我内心正在发生的事情。
So that's a good example.
这是一个很好的例子。
I mean, for some people, you know, they have those moments when they're out jogging, for example, or riding a bicycle or whatever it does, listening to music.
我的意思是，对于某些人来说，你知道，他们有时会出去慢跑，例如，骑自行车或其他任何事情，听音乐。
There's no right path for everyone.
没有适合每个人的正确道路。
It's like find the place where you're able to be.
这就像找到你能够到达的地方。
Alone with yourself, and if you can tolerate being with yourself.
与自己独处，如果你能忍受与自己相处。
And you pay attention.
你注意了。
Something will start coming up, you see.
你看，有些事情将会开始出现。
And ultimately, ironically, that's the cure to the great disease of our time, which is loneliness.
具有讽刺意味的是，最终，这就是治疗我们这个时代的大病——孤独的良药。
It's interesting that the UK and Japan We now have cabinet-level posts for ministers of loneliness, so great is the loneliness.
有趣的是，英国和日本现在都设立了内阁级别的职位，让部长们感到孤独，孤独感是如此之大。
We've never been more connected in human history through our electronic media.
在人类历史上，我们通过电子媒体的联系从未如此紧密。
And yet people are now isolated in their rooms, talking to each other.
然而人们现在都被隔离在自己的房间里，互相交谈。
And I saw a cartoon, probably New York or somewhere, where a couple was getting married, and the minister says to the couple, text each other, I do, you know.
我看到一部动画片，可能是在纽约或其他地方，一对夫妇正在结婚，部长对这对夫妇说，互相发短信，我愿意，你知道。
It was ultimately a joke about how we are so media dependent now.
这最终是一个关于我们现在如何如此依赖媒体的笑话。
That we're disconnected from each other.
我们彼此之间已经断绝了联系。
And so whatever it is that helps you link to something in here.
因此，无论是什么可以帮助您链接到此处的某些内容。
Jung asked this question, which I'm also haunted by in a constructive way.
荣格问了这个问题，我也以建设性的方式困扰着这个问题。
He said, we all need to find what supports us when nothing supports us.
他说，当没有什么支持我们的时候，我们都需要找到支持我们的东西。
And that's ultimately the cure for loneliness, that there's something inside of me that knows me better than me.
这最终是治愈孤独的良方，因为我内心有某种东西比我更了解我。
Is, is...
是、是...
Working hard to bring about a healthy response to whatever life brings.
努力工作，对生活带来的一切做出健康的反应。
And it has a purposefulness to it, an intentionality, an expression.
它有其目的性、意向性、表达方式。
And when I'm in touch with that, I feel that sense of wholeness and purposefulness.
当我接触到这一点时，我感受到那种完整感和目标感。
When I'm out of it, it's when I start unraveling, so to speak.
可以这么说，当我摆脱困境时，就是我开始解开的时候。
That's how we get exhausted and burned out and so forth.
这就是我们为什么会感到精疲力尽、精疲力尽等等。
So again, I use that word recollecting, remembering.
所以我再次使用“回忆”这个词。
It's like pulling the pieces back together again in some way.
这就像以某种方式将碎片重新拉回到一起。
So what Shakespeare said, the...
所以莎士比亚说过，...
Knitting the raveled sleeve of care, you see.
你看，编织关心的散乱袖子。
He was using the same metaphor of being unraveled in some way.
他用了同样的比喻，即以某种方式被解开。
I love this notion of spending time alone and accessing one's deepest resource for self-care as a way to deal with loneliness.
我喜欢独处的时间，并利用自己最深层的资源进行自我保健，以此作为应对孤独的一种方式。
Because ultimately, I also completely agree that stimulus response is the hallmark of...
因为最终，我也完全同意刺激反应是……的标志。
Text messaging, there can be useful aspects to text messaging, of course, coordinating plans, et cetera, and communicating, but, but certainly Social Media, it's a, you know, we have a stimulus response device.
短信，当然，短信可以有一些有用的方面，协调计划等等，以及沟通，但是，当然还有社交媒体，它是一个，你知道的，我们有一个刺激反应装置。
Some people think of it more like a slot machine, but it never actually returns the jackpot is the, is the issue.
有些人认为它更像是老虎机，但它实际上从未返回累积奖金，这就是问题所在。
And I also think that Social Media can be terrific for educating and learning as well.
我还认为社交媒体对于教育和学习也非常有用。
Certainly much of what I do or strive to do.
当然，我所做的或努力做的很多事情。
I think time alone is incredibly beneficial.
我认为独处的时间是非常有益的。
So thank you for highlighting that.
感谢您强调这一点。
And also that it doesn't take much, maybe even a half hour walk or something of that sort.
而且它并不需要太多时间，甚至可能步行半小时之类的。
If I may, what do you think happens when we exit that stimulus response mode?
如果可以的话，您认为当我们退出刺激反应模式时会发生什么？
Do you think the unconscious mind is revealed a bit more to us?
你认为潜意识向我们揭示得更多吗？
And I think of the unconscious mind, a former guest on this podcast, a psychiatrist described the unconscious as kind of like the...
我想到了无意识的心灵，这个播客的一位前嘉宾，一位精神病学家将无意识描述为有点像......
Iceberg that's beneath the surface, all the stuff going on that we're entirely unaware of.
冰山在表面之下，所有我们完全不知道的事情正在发生。
Do you think that the water recedes a little bit?
你觉得水退了一点吗？
Oh, absolutely.
哦，绝对是。
Because there's no room for the expression of whatever's wanting to be acknowledged within us when we're constantly responding to our environmental demands.
因为当我们不断地响应我们的环境需求时，我们内心就没有空间表达任何想要被承认的东西。
One of the things I try to do is walk a mile every day.
我尝试做的事情之一就是每天步行一英里。
I've gone through some health issues in recent years.
近年来我经历了一些健康问题。
And...
还有...
So I'm sort of in a physical recovery stage of life, and I walk a mile a day, even though it's physically difficult.
所以我正处于人生的身体恢复阶段，我每天步行一英里，尽管这对身体来说很困难。
And I find that revelatory because I'm focused on being present here.
我发现这很有启发性，因为我专注于出席这里。
Rather than all of the distractions there.
而不是那里的所有干扰。
And that's one of the things that...
这就是其中之一......
I have found a form of meditation, if you will.
如果你愿意的话，我找到了一种冥想的方式。
And what comes up for me is often surprising.
而发生的事情常常让我感到惊讶。
So I've talked before on the podcast about meditation, clinical hypnosis, something called the yoga nidra, which is a self-directed relaxation.
所以我之前在播客上谈过冥想、临床催眠、瑜伽休息术，这是一种自我导向的放松。
I sometimes call it non-sleep, deep rest, et cetera.
我有时称之为不睡觉、深度休息等等。
And without taking us on a tangent, I raise this because we keep talking about meditation.
我提出这个问题并不偏离我们的主题，因为我们一直在谈论冥想。
And I think to a lot of people, meditation sounds like something esoteric.
我认为对很多人来说，冥想听起来像是一件深奥的事情。
To me, as a neuroscientist, meditation is a perceptual exercise.
对我来说，作为一名神经科学家，冥想是一种感知练习。
It can be done to enhance focus by focusing on a specific location behind the forehead or looking at a...
可以通过关注额头后面的特定位置或看着...来增强注意力。
Light.
光。
It can be an open monitoring meditation where you're intentionally not trying to focus on any one thing.
它可以是一种开放的监控冥想，你故意不去关注任何一件事。
But at the end of the day, it's a deliberate perceptual shift.
但归根结底，这是一种刻意的观念转变。
Much in the same way that if I decide to you know, listen to an opera with my eyes closed.
就像我决定闭上眼睛听歌剧一样。
That's a, in some sense, it's a meditation.
从某种意义上说，这是一种冥想。
It's a deliberate perceptual shift.
这是一种刻意的观念转变。
And so a deliberate perceptual shift that we're calling a meditation, which I think is a great label for it, that is directly aimed at better understanding one's own unconscious processing so that one can then lean into the stimulus response parts of life with more intentionality, with less opportunity to hit the rumble strips or go into the gutter.
因此，我们称之为冥想的一种刻意的知觉转变，我认为这是一个很好的标签，它的直接目的是更好地理解一个人自己的无意识处理过程，这样一个人就可以更有目的性地投入到生活中的刺激反应部分，而减少撞上隆隆带或掉进阴沟的机会。
With a more authentic response to it.
对此有更真实的回应。
You see, because it's more likely to be coming out of me rather than simply being reactive.
你看，因为这更有可能是我自己的想法，而不是简单的被动反应。
I think that's the important thing.
我认为这是最重要的事情。
What's so important about what you're saying is that for years now we've heard about, you know, meditation being important as a way to intervene in the stimulus response.
你所说的如此重要的是，多年来我们一直听说冥想作为干预刺激反应的一种重要方式。
Process.
过程。
And people say, be responsive, not reactive.
人们说，要做出反应，而不是被动反应。
And it all sounds so wonderful, just as sounding, being gritty and resilient sounds wonderful.
这一切听起来都那么美妙，就像坚韧不拔、坚韧不拔听起来美妙一样。
But one of the things that's really important here that you're raising is that there are methods to do this.
但您在这里提出的真正重要的事情之一是有方法可以做到这一点。
They almost always involve going inward or someone who can see what we can't see.
它们几乎总是涉及向内走，或者有人能看到我们看不到的东西。
Pointing out blind spots in us.
指出我们的盲点。
That's right.
这是正确的。
Well, I think, again, the issue is to still the traffic inside and be present to the moment in whatever way that is.
好吧，我再次认为，问题是要保持内部的交通畅通，并以任何方式呈现在当下。
That's why I said a person can meditate by a work of the hands.
这就是为什么我说一个人可以通过手的工作来冥想。
Or by walking, or something that pulls one out of the cycles that are running their little script over and over and over.
或者通过步行，或者通过某种方式将人从一遍又一遍地运行他们的小脚本的循环中拉出来。
So there are many forms of meditating.
所以冥想有很多种形式。
And, you know, ancient traditions have revealed that too.
而且，你知道，古老的传统也揭示了这一点。
There was walking meditation and so forth.
还有行禅等等。
And you mentioned music.
你提到了音乐。
I think that's another example.
我认为这是另一个例子。
To listen to music, I think, takes one out of, you know, Nietzsche said once, without music, life's a mistake.
我认为，听音乐可以让你摆脱困境，你知道，尼采曾经说过，没有音乐，生活就是一个错误。
And I think what he was getting at was there is a sense in which Music has no purpose except being itself.
我认为他的意思是，音乐除了存在本身之外没有任何目的。
So when we're really present to the music, We were in the midst of being.
所以当我们真正沉浸在音乐中时，我们就处于存在之中。
We're at spring right now, as you and I are talking, and it's beautiful in the neighborhood.
正如你和我所说，我们现在正值春天，附近的景色很美丽。
And so I've been watching the flowers emerge and so forth.
所以我一直在观察花朵的绽放等等。
And simply being present to that means some of that other traffic is stilled.
仅仅存在于此就意味着其他一些流量会被停止。
And then I return and the traffic resumes.
然后我回来，交通又恢复了。
But maybe I have a little more of a sense of who I am and from whence I'm responding, you see, as a result of that recentering process.
但也许我对我是谁以及我从哪里做出回应有了更多的认识，你看，这是这个重新定位过程的结果。
You know, the Zen folks talk about being no-minded.
你知道，禅宗讲的是无心。
I think it was their way of talking about being present to this moment.
我认为这是他们谈论活在当下的方式。
But not consumed by the demands of this moment.
但并没有被当下的需求所消耗。
And that's a difficult thing to manage, but it's essential.
这是一件很难管理的事情，但它是必要的。
I'd like to take a brief break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, Waking Up.
我想短暂休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商之一“醒来”。
Waking Up is a meditation app that offers hundreds of guided meditations, mindfulness trainings, yoga nidra sessions, and more.
Wake Up 是一款冥想应用程序，提供数百种引导冥想、正念训练、瑜伽休息课程等。
I started meditating over three decades ago, and what I found in the ensuing years is that sometimes it was very easy for me to do my daily meditation practice.
我三十多年前开始冥想，在接下来的几年里我发现，有时我每天的冥想练习非常容易。
I was just really diligent.
我只是真的很勤奋。
But then as things would get more stressful, which of course is exactly when I should have been meditating more, my meditation practice would fall off.
但随着事情变得更加紧张，这当然正是我应该更多冥想的时候，我的冥想练习就会下降。
With Waking Up, they make it very easy to find and consistently use a given meditation practice.
通过唤醒，他们可以很容易地找到并持续使用给定的冥想练习。
It has very convenient reminders and they come in different durations.
它有非常方便的提醒，并且提醒的持续时间不同。
So even if you just have one minute or five minutes to meditate, you can still get your meditation in, which research shows is still highly beneficial.
因此，即使您只有一分钟或五分钟的冥想时间，您仍然可以进行冥想，研究表明这仍然非常有益。
In addition to the many different meditations on the Waking Up app, they also have yoga nidra sessions, which are a form of non-sleep deep rest that I personally find is extremely valuable for restoring mental and physical vigor.
除了唤醒应用程序上的许多不同冥想之外，他们还提供瑜伽休息课程，这是一种非睡眠深度休息形式，我个人认为对于恢复精神和身体活力非常有价值。
I tend to do a yoga nidra lasting anywhere from 10 to 20 minutes at least once a day.
我倾向于每天至少做一次持续 10 到 20 分钟的瑜伽休息术。
And if I ever wake up in the middle of the night and I need to fall back asleep, I also find yoga nidra to be extremely useful.
如果我在半夜醒来并需要重新入睡，我也发现瑜伽休息术非常有用。
If you'd like to try the Waking Up app, you can go to wakingup.com slash Huberman to try a free 30-day trial.
如果您想尝试 Waking Up 应用程序，可以访问 wakingup.comlash Huberman 尝试 30 天免费试用。
Again, that's wakingup.com slash Huberman.
再说一遍，这是 wakingup.com 斜线 Huberman。
And perhaps we can talk about the shadow, this notion of the shadow.
也许我们可以谈谈阴影，阴影的概念。
It sounds very ominous.
听起来很不祥。
What is the shadow?
影子是什么？
And are people aware of their shadows?
人们意识到自己的影子吗？
And if they're not, how can they become aware of them?
如果他们不知道，他们怎么能意识到它们呢？
And how can they work with them?
他们如何与他们合作？
Well, a shadow was Jung's metaphor for those parts of our own psyche.
嗯，影子是荣格对我们心灵的那些部分的比喻。
And or our affiliation with groups, for example, whether it's a religious group, educational group, a national identity, that when brought to consciousness, we find troubling, perhaps contradictory to our values, or, you know, inimical to our sense of self-worth or something like that.
或者我们与团体的联系，例如，无论是宗教团体、教育团体还是民族身份，当我们意识到这一点时，我们会发现令人不安，也许与我们的价值观相矛盾，或者，你知道，不利于我们的自我价值感或类似的东西。
For example, typical shadow issues include our capacity for jealousy and for envy.
例如，典型的阴影问题包括我们的嫉妒和羡慕的能力。
For aggression, for greed, etc., etc.
为了侵略，为了贪婪，等等。
We don't want to acknowledge those things, but since when are we exempt from the human condition?
我们不想承认这些事情，但从什么时候起我们可以免受人类状况的影响呢？
The wisest thing ever said about the shadow came from Latin playwright Terence two millennia ago, who said, Nothing human is alien to me.
关于影子最明智的说法来自两千年前的拉丁剧作家特伦斯，他说：“人类对我来说并不陌生。”
Now, I think that's important to recognize.
现在，我认为认识到这一点很重要。
In me, I carry the entire capacity of human nature to express itself.
在我身上，我具有人性表达自身的全部能力。
Some of those forms of expressions will be acceptable to the society or to my psychological culture, and some will not be.
其中一些表达形式会被社会或我的心理文化所接受，而另一些则不会。
And that's the shadow material.
这就是阴影材质。
And, you know, there's the personal shadow and there are group shadows because nations can be possessed by bloodlust, for example, or a fashion is a shadow issue where everybody has to look the same way and dress the same way and so forth.
而且，你知道，有个人阴影，也有群体阴影，因为国家可能会被嗜血所附身，或者时尚是一个阴影问题，每个人都必须看起来相同，穿着相同，等等。
You know, the more insecure I am as a person, the more likely I'm going to try to look around me for what are the clues so I can fit in, be like others, and therefore I'll be acceptable, you see.
你知道，作为一个人，我越没有安全感，我就越有可能尝试环顾四周寻找线索，这样我就能融入他人，像其他人一样，因此我会被接受，你看。
That's not a federal crime.
这不是联邦犯罪。
That's a very deep complex that is left over from childhood.
那是童年遗留下来的很深的情结。
I'm not here to fit in.
我来这里不是为了融入。
I'm here to be who I am.
我来这里是为了做我自己。
Which at times will fit in and other times it won't.
有时适合，有时则不适合。
But that's okay because I'm at least in good relationships to myself at that point.
但这没关系，因为那时我至少与自己保持着良好的关系。
So typically the shadow manifests as being unconscious, therefore it just spills into the world through us.
因此，阴影通常表现为无意识，因此它只是通过我们蔓延到世界上。
A perfect example of shadow issues, as I mentioned before, is parents expecting their children to grow up and have, you know, the same kind of values that I have, for example.
正如我之前提到的，影子问题的一个完美例子是父母期望他们的孩子长大后拥有与我相同的价值观。
Same religious views, marry somebody that I find acceptable, etc., etc. Well, that's not really loving the otherness of the other, is it?
相同的宗教观点，与我认为可以接受的人结婚，等等。好吧，这并不是真正爱对方的差异，不是吗？
It's not really loving the child for their own journey.
这并不是真正爱孩子自己的旅程。
That's them carrying some piece of their own unfinished business.
他们正在承担自己未完成的事业。
Secondly.
第二。
We disown the shadow by projecting on some, you know, those people across the border there, you know, they're the carrier.
我们通过投射到一些人身上来否认阴影，你知道，那些跨越边境的人，你知道，他们是携带者。
They're what's wrong with this world, you see.
你看，他们就是这个世界的问题所在。
I disown the shadow in myself by seeing it in everybody else around me.
当我看到周围其他人身上的阴影时，我就否认了自己身上的阴影。
Jung actually said what often we find troubling in another person is because they're expressing something within our own unconscious.
荣格实际上说过，我们经常在另一个人身上发现麻烦是因为他们在我们自己的无意识中表达了一些东西。
You know, as a certain itinerant rabbi said two millennia ago, I can see the speck in your eye but miss the log in my own.
你知道，正如两千年前一位流动的拉比所说，我可以看到你眼中的斑点，但看不到我自己眼中的圆木。
That's a perfect illustration of what the shadow is.
这是对阴影的完美诠释。
Thirdly, one can get caught up in it.
第三，人们可能会陷入其中。
That's at times what rock concerts are, mass events, people are caught up in a mob mentality.
有时摇滚音乐会、群众活动就是这样，人们陷入了暴民心态。
Where you lose your sense of individual ego identity and become subsumed into a collective mood.
在那里你失去了个人自我认同感并融入了集体情绪。
And, you know, that could be a hanging mob, for example, as has happened in history too many times.
而且，你知道，这可能是一群悬挂的暴民，就像历史上发生过太多次一样。
And it could be a force for good or a force for evil, but again, the larger the group, the lower the level of consciousness of the individuals in that group.
它可能是一股正义的力量，也可能是一股邪恶的力量，但同样，群体越大，该群体中个体的意识水平就越低。
And then fourthly, we recognize it in ourselves.
第四，我们在自己身上认识到这一点。
In a speech at Yale University in 1937, Jung...
1937 年，荣格在耶鲁大学的一次演讲中...
Said a person who could look at their own shadow and own it.
一个可以看到自己的影子并拥有它的人说道。
He said, now has a large problem because they're no longer to blame others for what goes wrong in their life.
他说，现在有一个大问题，因为他们不再因为生活中的问题而责怪别人。
They have to acknowledge that within themselves.
他们必须在自己内心承认这一点。
And he said further, it's the single best thing you can do for your society.
他进一步说，这是你能为社会做的最好的事情。
This is not navel-gazing.
这不是空想。
This is how you lift your unfinished business off of your partner, your children.
这就是你如何将未完成的事业从你的伴侣、你的孩子身上卸下来。
Take it back yourself, which is a loving thing to do and a civic-minded thing to do if you look at it collectively here.
你自己把它拿回来，如果你在这里集体看待它，这是一件充满爱心的事情，也是一件有公民意识的事情。
So, How does one...
那么，一个人如何...
Learn what their shadow or shadows.
了解他们的影子或影子。
Well, again, if you're married, ask your partner.
好吧，再说一遍，如果你已婚，请询问你的伴侣。
Sure.
当然。
Who will tell you immediately what your unfinished business may be.
谁会立即告诉你你的未竟事业可能是什么。
Or your children or your close friend, perhaps.
或者你的孩子或你亲密的朋友，也许。
It shows up in dreams.
它出现在梦中。
Freud talked about a young man who's disowned the content of his dream.
弗洛伊德谈到了一个否认自己梦的内容的年轻人。
He says, well, I don't...
他说，好吧，我不...
You know...
你知道...
Freud said, well, whose dream do you think that was?
弗洛伊德说，好吧，你认为那是谁的梦？
It was your dream.
这是你的梦想。
You have to acknowledge that that was embodying something within you.
你必须承认那是你内在的某些东西的体现。
So, there are many ways to recognize the shadow.
因此，识别影子的方法有很多种。
Often consequences pile up and then one begins to realize, well, the only consistent person in all the scenes of this drama I call my life is moi, so I have to acknowledge that that's my stuff.
通常，后果会堆积起来，然后人们开始意识到，好吧，在我称之为我的生活的这部戏剧的所有场景中唯一一致的人就是我，所以我必须承认那是我的东西。
And that's a very humbling thing.
这是一件非常令人谦卑的事情。
That's why I say this work is humbling, not inflating in some way.
这就是为什么我说这项工作是谦卑的，而不是某种程度的膨胀。
It's humbling.
这是令人谦卑的。
So, again, shadow work is never going to be popular because it means I'm taking responsibility.
所以，再说一次，影子工作永远不会流行，因为这意味着我要承担责任。
And yet, what else would being a human being who's responsible and adult-like do except accept responsibility, you see?
然而，作为一个有责任感、像成年人一样的人，除了承担责任之外，还能做什么，你看？
It's one of the definitions I would say of an adult person is I know I'm accountable for what spills in the world through me.
我对成年人的定义之一是我知道我对通过我泄漏到世界上的事情负责。
Yes, I'm responding to various things that happen around me, but...
是的，我正在对周围发生的各种事情做出反应，但是......
Sooner or later, I'm the one bringing my stories, my conditioned responses, and something of my shadow to the mix and responding out of that.
迟早，我会把我的故事、我的条件反射和我的影子融入其中，并从中做出回应。
Now, that's a witch's brew at times, as you could imagine.
现在，正如你可以想象的那样，这有时是女巫的酿造。
At the same time, you recognize, all right, but that's my business to address, because if I don't, it just continues.
与此同时，你也承认，好吧，但这就是我要解决的问题，因为如果我不这样做，事情就会继续下去。
What I observe in the world and what I've experienced before is that certainly we all have shadow sides.
我在这个世界上观察到的以及我以前经历过的事情是，我们当然都有阴暗面。
Me, everybody.
我，大家。
I mean, I think that's like.
我的意思是，我认为是这样的。
I think anyone that doesn't believe that is perhaps not of Homo sapiens.
我认为任何不相信这一点的人可能都不是智人。
Maybe other animals have shadows too, who knows?
也许其他动物也有影子，谁知道呢？
But that when shadows clash, it becomes very confusing because given what you're saying, very few people address their shadows.
但当阴影发生冲突时，事情就会变得非常混乱，因为考虑到你所说的，很少有人解决他们的阴影问题。
And these days, especially, there's no need to make this political.
尤其是现在，没有必要将其政治化。
This is just social.
这只是社交。
Sure.
当然。
We see mobs forming.
我们看到暴徒正在形成。
As you said, the larger the group, the lower the level of consciousness.
正如你所说，群体越大，意识水平就越低。
And then it becomes.
然后就变成了。
Even more challenging to address one's shadow when a there's the perception of an attack.
当感知到受到攻击时，解决阴影问题就更具挑战性。
B, that attack oftentimes is the reflection of the other group shadow.
B、那次攻击往往是对方群体影子的反映。
And C, people find refuge with people who have similar shadow processes.
C，人们向具有相似影子过程的人寻求庇护。
So not to be pessimistic here, but perhaps the answer is what you referred to before is to go inward to the self.
所以这里不要悲观，但也许答案就是你之前提到的，就是向内看向自我。
Work with somebody or somebody close to you that has your best interest in mind, truly best interest in mind.
与那些考虑到您的最大利益、真正考虑到您的最大利益的人或与您关系密切的人一起工作。
And then try to resolve that.
然后尝试解决这个问题。
Well, yes, and very few people are willing to do that.
嗯，是的，很少有人愿意这样做。
That's what polarizes societies, polarizes groups, and so forth.
这就是社会两极分化、群体两极分化等等的原因。
It's comforting to find like-minded people, but then they're both caught in the same complex is another way of putting that.
找到志同道合的人是令人欣慰的，但他们都陷入了同样的情结——这是另一种表达方式。
So ultimately, whatever reality is, it's going to wear through that and reveal something that's going to be...
所以最终，无论现实是什么，它都会磨损并揭示出一些东西......
It's pretty disconcerting to individuals who are caught in a collective identification that way.
对于那些陷入这种集体认同的人来说，这是相当令人不安的。
You know, the shadow comes because our human nature is thrust into various social situations.
要知道，阴影的出现是因为我们的人性被推入了各种社会情境中。
We can't help but have a shadow.
我们不免有阴影。
You know, we have to socialize a child.
你知道，我们必须让孩子社交。
We learn to use a knife and a fork and not take our siblings'food and that sort of thing.
我们学会使用刀叉，而不是拿我们兄弟姐妹的食物之类的东西。
You learn to look both ways before you cross the street.
在过马路之前，你要学会向两边看。
There's socialization that's important, and yet...
社交很重要，但……
The greater the socialization, the more likely there's going to be an interruption.
社交程度越高，中断的可能性就越大。
I mean, think about those cultures.
我的意思是，想想那些文化。
Where people are forced to dress alike for some form of unity or conformity.
人们被迫穿着相似以达到某种形式的统一或一致性。
Think about where a person might have a special gift or talent, but it's not appreciated in family X or Y.
想一想一个人可能具有特殊天赋或才能，但在 X 或 Y 家庭中不被赏识的情况。
Well, where does that natural form of expression go?
那么，这种自然的表达形式去哪里了呢？
It pathologizes as depression, or it comes out in compensatory dreams, or projections onto someone else, or it makes the person ill.
它病理化为抑郁症，或者出现在补偿性梦中，或者投射到别人身上，或者使人生病。
You know, the unlived life can make a person ill.
你知道，没有活过的生活会让人生病。
There's a sickness unto death, as Kierkegaard talked about it.
正如克尔凯郭尔所说，有一种至死不渝的疾病。
You know, it's that sickness where the human spirit is being repetitively violated.
你知道，正是这种疾病不断地侵犯着人类的精神。
And much in our culture violates our spirits.
我们的文化中有很多内容违背了我们的精神。
And spirit is not something you will, it's something that is the quickening of life's energy in service to something.
精神不是你愿意的东西，它是生命能量加速服务于某事的东西。
And if your family or your situation imposed itself upon that.
如果你的家庭或你的情况强加了这一点。
To give a quick example, my own family of origin was one in which they were By the circumstances of decades ago, unable to attain an education, my father worked in a factory, my mother was a secretary.
举个简单的例子，我的原生家庭是这样的。几十年前，由于无法接受教育，我的父亲在一家工厂工作，我的母亲是一名秘书。
And for them, life was a series of shaming events.
对他们来说，生活就是一系列羞辱事件。
And overwhelming events.
还有压倒性的事件。
And the message to me, both overt and covert, is don't go out there.
给我的信息，无论是公开的还是隐蔽的，都是不要出去。
It's too big.
它太大了。
It's too much.
太多了。
Stay here and we'll take care of each other.
留在这里，我们会互相照顾。
So one of the first things I did when I was 18 was left.
所以我18岁时做的第一件事之一就被留下了。
I went to college and came back for vacations, but I left psychologically at that point.
我上大学并回来度假，但那时我在心理上离开了。
Something in me...
我体内有某种东西...
I knew that I had to have a larger life than that.
我知道我必须拥有比这更美好的生活。
And I say that with love and respect and compassion for my parents.
我这样说是带着对我父母的爱、尊重和同情。
The last conversation I had with my mother before she died of cancer her ancestor, a father she'd never known, was from Sweden.
在我母亲因癌症去世之前，我与她进行的最后一次谈话是她的祖先，她从未认识的父亲，来自瑞典。
And I'd had a book translated into Swedish.
我还请人把一本书翻译成瑞典语。
And I told her I thought that would be something that would be nice for her.
我告诉她我认为这对她有好处。
And she was horrified.
她很害怕。
It's like, why have you written it?
就像，你为什么写它？
What are they saying?
他们在说什么？
And I thought she meant reviewers at first, and I realized that's the voice I heard in childhood.
我一开始以为她指的是评论家，后来我意识到那是我小时候听到的声音。
She was saying, you shouldn't be out there.
她说，你不应该在外面。
Now people are going to attack you.
现在人们会攻击你。
This will draw attention to you, you see.
你看，这会引起你的注意。
And her intention was protective.
她的意图是保护性的。
In her last days, actually, before she died, she was more afraid.
在她最后的日子里，其实，在她死之前，她更害怕。
Of what people thought.
人们的想法。
Than whether her son was living his journey or not.
比她的儿子是否正在经历他的旅程更重要。
And I say this with grief for her.
我怀着为她悲伤的心情说这句话。
And that was the message of childhood, you know, it's too much out there.
这就是童年的信息，你知道，外面的信息太多了。
And yet, something inside quickened and said, well, you need to go where those airplanes are going.
然而，内心深处的某个东西加速说，好吧，你需要去那些飞机要去的地方。
You need to go see the ocean for yourself.
你需要亲自去看看大海。
You need to try to live in a foreign country and see what that's like.
你需要尝试在外国生活，看看那是什么样子。
Was I, was that easy?
我，有那么容易吗？
No, it was doubly hard because of the messages I had.
不，由于我收到的信息，这变得更加困难。
But it was just necessary.
但这只是必要的。
Sooner or later, again, the appointment with your life, do you keep it or you not keep the appointment?
或早或晚，再次与你的人生有个约会，你是守约还是不守约？
So that was the first meeting of the appointment was to leave home and start the journey.
于是，约定的第一次见面就是离开家，开始旅程。
You know, in terms of the archetype of the journey, first is the departure.
要知道，就旅程的原型而言，首先是出发。
And then you have the initiatory experiences, which can knock you down.
然后你就有了最初的经历，这可能会让你崩溃。
And then the question is, do you get up and go to the next one?
然后问题是，你会站起来去下一个吗？
And sooner or later, something begins to change inside, and you begin to feel that this is the journey that's right for me.
迟早，内心会开始发生变化，你开始觉得这是适合我的旅程。
It's very moving to hear because we hear that we become our parents, and yet I've never believed that.
听到这个消息非常令人感动，因为我们听说我们成为了父母，但我从来不相信这一点。
I believe that for whatever reason inside us that we either...
我相信，无论出于我们内心的原因，我们要么...
Adopt their traits.
采用他们的特点。
Unconsciously or consciously, or we resist them 180 degrees in the other direction.
不知不觉地或有意识地，或者我们在另一个方向上一百八十度地抵制它们。
There doesn't seem to be a 90 degree response as, as your example beautifully illustrates that there's something in the brain and in the human psyche that either says, yeah, okay.
似乎没有 90 度的反应，因为你的例子完美地说明了大脑和人类心灵中的某些东西要么说，是的，好吧。
Like that's just the way life is for better or worse.
就像生活就是这样，无论好坏。
Or says no. And, you know, I feel I'm 48 years old, so I'm still learning to be a full adult.
或者说不。而且，你知道，我觉得我已经 48 岁了，所以我仍在学习如何成为一个完整的成年人。
I like to think there's some neuroplasticity left.
我认为还剩下一些神经可塑性。
Science tells us there's neuroplasticity throughout the lifespan.
科学告诉我们，神经可塑性贯穿整个生命周期。
So I do believe that.
所以我确实相信这一点。
But I feel like so much of being an adult, perhaps just being a human being is about.
但我觉得作为一个成年人，也许只是作为一个人。
Learning to stand one's ground and say, no, no, no, that's me.
学会坚持自己的立场并说，不，不，不，这就是我。
And this is what's right for me.
这对我来说是正确的。
And you're wrong, crazy, or just different.
而你错了，疯了，或者只是与众不同。
And we agree to disagree.
我们同意不同意。
And then there's the other half of being an adult, which is saying, oh, goodness.
然后还有作为成年人的另一半，那就是说，哦，天哪。
You might be right.
你可能是对的。
Maybe you are right.
也许你是对的。
Okay, you're right.
好吧，你是对的。
I screwed up or I...
我搞砸了，或者我...
You need to at least think about this differently.
你至少需要以不同的方式思考这个问题。
And the hard work of being a human, I think, is knowing when you are dealing with incoming messages that are real, they...
我认为，作为一个人的艰辛工作是知道当你处理传入的真实消息时，它们......
Could be from a healthy source or an unhealthy source it's complicated this is why i mentioned this thing about the internet and Social Media in particular earlier i do believe it's borderline i think if you were to remove the names and the faces and you would just put that into a script you'd say this is a dialogue coming from a borderline person weaving back and forth across the line literally of healthy and psychotic and so as a human especially nowadays it's complicated We don't just live in little villages where we go, okay, well, that person tends to kind of, you know, spin off and that person seems very grounded, but occasionally makes mistakes too, you know?
可能来自健康的来源，也可能来自不健康的来源，这很复杂，这就是为什么我之前特别提到了互联网和社交媒体的问题，我确实相信它是边缘的，我认为如果你要删除名字和面孔，然后将其放入脚本中，你会说这是来自边缘人的对话，在健康和精神病的界限上来回穿梭，所以作为一个人，尤其是现在，它很复杂，我们不只是生活在我们所去的小村庄里，好吧，嗯，那个人倾向于，你知道，脱离，那个人看起来很脚踏实地，但偶尔也会犯错误，你知道吗？
And so I feel like so much of the work of being a, I said an adult, but I'm going to replace that with just a human is trying to know thyself, right?
所以我觉得作为一个成年人的很多工作，我说的是一个成年人，但我将用一个人来取代它，就是试图了解你自己，对吗？
As the Oracle said, and own thyself and report that into the world.
正如神谕所说，拥有自己并向全世界报告。
But also to be semi-permeable in a way that's functional is such hard work.
但要以一种功能性的方式实现半渗透性也是一项艰巨的工作。
Because in both cases, the adoption of what we were told and what was ingrained in us and is unconscious so that we just live out the script of our parents or where we say, no, I'm going to leave this little town or I'm not going to live life or relationships that way at all.
因为在这两种情况下，我们都会无意识地接受我们被告知的内容以及根深蒂固的内容，因此我们只是按照父母的剧本生活，或者我们说，不，我要离开这个小镇，或者我根本不会以这种方式生活或建立关系。
I'm going to do it this other completely different way, maybe unconventional way.
我将采用另一种完全不同的方式，也许是非常规的方式。
Both have an element of reactivity in them and certainly both have an element of kind of...
两者都具有反应性的元素，并且当然都具有某种......的元素。
There's a vigor behind it.
背后有一股气势。
Sure.
当然。
No, your point is very well taken and appropriate because it is a paradox.
不，你的观点被很好地理解和恰当，因为它是一个悖论。
First of all, in the Eden Project, a book I wrote on relationship and subtitled The Search for the Magical Leather, there is inside of us this infantile and understandable desire to find the right person who's going to make our life work for us.
首先，在《伊甸园计划》中，我写了一本关于关系的书，副标题是“寻找神奇的皮革”，我们内心有一种幼稚且可以理解的渴望，想要找到一个能让我们的生活为我们工作的合适人选。
Who's going to take care of us, meet our needs, read our minds, etc., etc., you see.
谁来照顾我们、满足我们的需求、读懂我们的想法等等，你瞧。
And the other person has that going on in them, so they project that onto us.
另一个人身上也有这种情况，所以他们将其投射到我们身上。
You wonder why relationships get so complexed, you see.
你想知道为什么关系变得如此复杂，你看。
But the great gift of relationship, if you can tolerate it, is the otherness of the other produces the dialectic, produces the enlargement that comes from encountering the other.
但关系的伟大礼物，如果你能容忍的话，就是对方的差异性产生了辩证法，产生了因与对方相遇而产生的扩大。
I've learned so much from my wife, and I believe she's learned a few things from me.
我从我妻子身上学到了很多东西，我相信她也从我身上学到了一些东西。
Our ongoing dialogue, because we're both similar and very different at the same time.
我们正在进行对话，因为我们既相似又截然不同。
Is one that has at times been conflictual, naturally, but most of the time is a pattern of growth because we are allowed to bring in that other perspective and see the same reality.
当然，有时会产生冲突，但大多数时候是一种成长模式，因为我们可以引入其他观点并看到相同的现实。
My wife has taught me to see some things that I wouldn't have seen before because she has an artist's eye.
我的妻子教会我看到一些我以前看不到的东西，因为她有艺术家的眼睛。
On the other hand, there are places where you have to come up, as you said, against what is central and critical to your own well-being or your own integrity, and then you have to stand for that.
另一方面，正如你所说，有些地方你必须站出来反对对你自己的福祉或你自己的正直至关重要的事情，然后你必须坚持这一点。
The wisdom to know which is which at any given time is not inbred.
在任何特定时间都知道哪个是哪个的智慧不是与生俱来的。
It's one of those times where we have to find that balancing point.
这是我们必须找到平衡点的时候之一。
Between legitimate dialogue and compromise and sacrifice in a relationship.
关系中合法的对话与妥协和牺牲之间。
There's a place for sacrifice.
有一个地方可以牺牲。
But at the same time, there's a place where you have to say, all right, but I also have to separate myself here and stand for this on the other side of that.
但同时，有一个地方你必须说，好吧，但我也必须在这里分开并站在另一边。
And, you know, it takes a Solomonic wisdom to know always what's right.
而且，你知道，需要所罗门式的智慧才能始终知道什么是正确的。
But over time, I think one can get a sense of what that's about.
但随着时间的推移，我认为人们可以了解其中的含义。
So, again, that's why we have to individuate.
所以，这也是我们必须个性化的原因。
As individuals by definition, but also in relationship.
根据定义，作为个体，但在关系中也是如此。
Because it's the otherness of the others that pulls us out of that self-referential system.
因为正是他人的差异性将我们从自我参照体系中拉了出来。
Otherwise, we get caught in a circular dialogue among our complexes, for example.
否则，我们就会陷入情结之间的循环对话。
As Jung said, it's important to go to the mountaintop to meditate, but if you stay up there too long, you'll be talking to ghosts.
正如荣格所说，去山顶冥想很重要，但如果你在那里呆得太久，你就会和鬼魂说话。
Your complexes will be caught in this looping cycle.
你的情结将陷入这个循环之中。
And you need the other to pull you out of that into the presence of the other, and it's out of that that the third comes.
你需要另一个人把你从这个状态中拉出来，带到另一个人的面前，而第三个人正是从这个过程中出现的。
Joseph Campbell made an important distinction once.
约瑟夫·坎贝尔曾经做过一个重要的区分。
He said about...
他说关于...
Committed relationship.
承诺的关系。
He said, if you're constantly sacrificing to the other, you'll grow resentful.
他说，如果你不断地为他人做出牺牲，你就会变得怨恨。
But if you're sacrificing to the project the two of you've launched together as a friendship or a marriage or whatever form it takes, you can do that in a very constructive way.
但如果你要为你们两个以友谊、婚姻或任何形式共同发起的项目做出牺牲，你可以以一种非常有建设性的方式做到这一点。
You're fed by that because you're mutually committed to the project that this relationship represents.
你对此感到满足，因为你们共同致力于这种关系所代表的项目。
And that's an important distinction, I think.
我认为这是一个重要的区别。
Yeah, given that 50% or more of marriages seem to end in divorce these days, I think that statistic still holds.
是的，考虑到如今 50% 或更多的婚姻似乎以离婚告终，我认为这个统计数据仍然成立。
Do you think...
你认为...
And that can be largely attributed to people not arriving to those relationships with the mindset you just described, people not arriving to those relationships having a deep enough understanding of themselves prior to that.
这在很大程度上可以归因于人们没有以你刚才描述的心态建立这些关系，人们在此之前没有对自己有足够深入的了解。
Or something else?
或者其他什么？
I think all of the above.
我认为以上都是。
First of all, young people tend to marry and make babies, understandably.
首先，年轻人倾向于结婚生子，这是可以理解的。
And then 20 years later, in some way, they're a different person.
20年后，在某种程度上，他们变成了另一个人。
And it's very hard for the premises that brought them together to still obtain in a developmental and honest way many years later.
多年后，将他们聚集在一起的前提很难仍然以发展和诚实的方式获得。
When you reach that point, then there's a time for renegotiation, or if need be, unfortunately, the dissolution of that relationship.
当你达到这一点时，就需要重新谈判，或者不幸的是，如果有必要的话，关系就会解散。
Because I had a colleague in New Jersey years ago who worked exclusively with couples, and she talked about starter marriages.
因为几年前我在新泽西州有一位专门从事夫妻工作的同事，她谈到了初婚。
And she said, I would never say that publicly because that sounded too pessimistic.
她说，我永远不会公开这么说，因为这听起来太悲观了。
But she said, if you're lucky, your starter marriage will be a good one that will evolve and so forth.
但她说，如果你幸运的话，你的开始婚姻将会是一段美好的婚姻，并且会不断发展等等。
But for most people...
但对于大多数人来说...
That which brought them together was running from their parents or replicating their parents'relationships or their insecurity about themselves.
让他们走到一起的是逃离父母、复制父母的关系或对自己的不安全感。
Therefore, they bonded with someone else who was going to take care of that for them, whatever it was.
因此，他们与其他人建立了联系，这个人会为他们处理这件事，无论是什么。
It's been outlived.
它已经过时了。
Their own natural development, their life circumstances have changed.
他们自己的自然发展，他们的生活环境已经改变。
And then it brings about...
然后它带来了...
You know, the necessity of some very difficult decisions.
你知道，一些非常困难的决定的必要性。
You know, marriage is an institution with the best of intentions.
你知道，婚姻是一种怀着最好的意图的制度。
That is sorely tested over time.
随着时间的推移，这一点受到了严峻的考验。
And, you know, sometimes it'll survive the test.
而且，你知道，有时它会经受住考验。
I would not automatically applaud if somebody's been married 50 or 60 years.
如果有人结婚 50 或 60 年，我不会自动鼓掌。
I would ask what has happened to the soul of that person in that relationship?
我想问，在这段关系中，那个人的灵魂发生了什么？
Has it grown?
它长大了吗？
Has it developed?
发展了吗？
Did they mutually support each other's growth and development?
他们是否相互支持彼此的成长和发展？
Or did something get stuck at that point?
或者当时有什么事情被卡住了吗？
And are early family of origin dynamics still dominating that relationship?
早期的原生家庭动态是否仍然主导着这种关系？
And from the outside, we usually don't know the answer to that question.
从外部来看，我们通常不知道这个问题的答案。
But inside you'd have to say, what has happened to this person?
但你内心却不得不说，这个人到底怎么了？
And the same is true with parenting.
养育孩子也是如此。
You know, parenting is very, very difficult because we'd like to think we know what's right for our own child, but then they have to spend a good part of their life trying to get away from us in some way, as we did ourselves, you see.
你知道，养育孩子是非常非常困难的，因为我们想认为我们知道什么对我们自己的孩子来说是正确的，但随后他们不得不花费一生的大部分时间试图以某种方式远离我们，就像我们自己所做的那样，你看。
And then if you remember that, then you're a little more likely to say, you know, I really don't know what's going on here, but I have to pay more attention to what I think is wanting expression through my child and support that rather than...
如果你还记得这一点，那么你更有可能会说，你知道，我真的不知道这里发生了什么，但我必须更多地关注我认为想要通过我的孩子表达的东西并支持它，而不是......
Assuming that they're going to grow up and replicate our lives and our values, as I've said before.
假设他们会长大并复制我们的生活和价值观，正如我之前所说。
Given the number of people who do deep introspective work, either by themselves or with a trained professional, it perhaps should surprise us that 50% of marriages do survive.
考虑到有很多人自己或与训练有素的专业人士进行深入的内省工作，50% 的婚姻确实能够幸存，这也许应该让我们感到惊讶。
Yeah, in a way, yes.
是的，在某种程度上，是的。
And those that survive are not necessarily good marriages in the sense in which the person is growing and developing.
从个人成长和发展的意义上来说，那些幸存下来的婚姻并不一定是好的婚姻。
They may be stuck, they may be afraid of the alternatives, they may be bound by economics, for example, or cultural forms.
他们可能会陷入困境，他们可能害怕其他选择，他们可能受到经济或文化形式的束缚。
So again, from outside, you don't know what's happening inside the soul of that individual.
再说一遍，从外部来看，你不知道那个人的灵魂内部正在发生什么。
And it's very important for us to not judge them for that reason.
对我们来说，不要因此而评判他们非常重要。
Earlier you described the painful work, sometimes painful work of really addressing what one wants and really getting in touch with one's soul, psyche.
早些时候你描述了痛苦的工作，有时是痛苦的工作，真正解决一个人想要什么，真正接触一个人的灵魂、心灵。
And how society or we think society might not approve of that.
以及社会或我们认为的社会可能不同意这一点。
And yet, when I think about popular culture, Um...
然而，当我想到流行文化时，嗯......
Oftentimes it's the people that seem to be living in their own truth that are most celebrated.
通常，那些似乎生活在自己的真理中的人最受赞扬。
That's true.
这是真的。
Like there's something about the crowd.
好像人群中有什么东西。
I've shifted from mob to crowd here to make it sound more benevolent, but it's still a mob that cheers on the person who really seems to be in their, we say full expression or living in their truth, but who just comes out and says like, yeah, I don't.
我已经从暴民变成了这里的人群，让它听起来更仁慈，但仍然是一群暴民，他们为那些真正似乎在他们的人中欢呼的人，我们说充分表达或生活在他们的真理中，但他们只是站出来说，是的，我不。
I don't really...
我真的不...
Care what they're saying about me or what people think.
关心他们如何评价我或人们的想法。
I know me.
我认识我。
I know my own goodness, my own intention, my own mission.
我知道我自己的善良，我自己的意图，我自己的使命。
And the people close to me do.
我身边的人也是如此。
Hopefully they have people close to them.
希望他们身边有亲近的人。
And...
还有...
We say, yeah, like, go.
我们说，是的，就像，走吧。
It's inspiring.
这很鼓舞人心。
Yes.
是的。
That's why I said earlier, many of the people in history that we would admire had difficult lives.
所以我刚才才说，历史上很多我们敬佩的人，他们的一生都是坎坷的。
But we admire them because they stuck to some value that was central to who they were.
但我们钦佩他们，因为他们坚持了一些对他们来说至关重要的价值观。
And they lived that, maybe at great cost, but they lived that through.
他们经历了这一点，也许付出了巨大的代价，但他们经历了这一点。
Whatever suffering they had to experience.
无论他们经历过什么痛苦。
Again, from outside, we don't know, do we, when we see some cultural figure out there.
再说一次，从外面看，当我们看到一些文化人物时，我们不知道，是吗？
Maybe they're manipulative, maybe they're caught in a complex of some kind.
也许他们有控制欲，也许他们陷入了某种情结。
We don't know from outside.
我们从外面不知道。
You have to say, I mean, one of the shadow issues is how often people will live through a celebrity or live through a pop figure in some way, maybe imitate that person.
你必须说，我的意思是，阴影问题之一是人们多久会通过名人或流行人物以某种方式生活，也许会模仿那个人。
Again, for a child, that's natural and normal.
再说一次，对于一个孩子来说，这是自然而正常的。
On the other hand, sooner or later you have to say, but my journey is a different journey.
另一方面，迟早你必须说，但我的旅程是一个不同的旅程。
Maybe they're living theirs, but am I living mine?
也许他们过着他们的生活，但我过着我的生活吗？
And I don't mean this in any grandiose way.
我的意思并不是任何宏大的方式。
I don't mean that they have to go out and become something that's noted in the society, but to live in accord with something that is wishing its expression through us.
我并不是说他们必须走出去，成为社会上有名的人，而是要按照希望通过我们表达的东西生活。
That's why I said, the final question in life is, what is wanting to live in this world through me, rather than what do I want, or what do my complexes want?
所以我说，人生的最后一个问题是，想要通过我活在这个世界上的是什么，而不是我想要什么，或者我的情结想要什么？
Because they're noisy chatterers in there.
因为他们在那里吵闹。
You know, I had a dear friend from another state write to me just yesterday.
你知道，昨天我有一位来自另一个州的好朋友给我写信。
He's in semi-retirement now and has been dealing with some health issues.
他现在处于半退休状态，一直在处理一些健康问题。
And he said, Now that I'm not distracted, I have time to work on all the goblins of the past that I left behind.
他说，既然我没有分心，我就有时间去研究我留下的过去的所有妖精了。
And he's an analyst.
他是一名分析师。
So it's not like we get rid of these things.
所以我们并不是要摆脱这些东西。
They're lifelong.
他们是一生的。
This is why Jung said we can't solve these things, but we can outgrow them.
这就是为什么荣格说我们无法解决这些问题，但我们可以超越它们。
There's a big difference.
有很大的不同。
You know, you become larger than what happened to you, for example.
例如，你知道，你会变得比发生在你身上的事情更伟大。
You become larger than that voice inside of you that says, you can do this, but you can't do that.
你变得比你内心的那个声音更大，它说，你可以这样做，但你不能那样做。
And over time, you know, something inside of you is wishing that growth and pushing that, and again, pathologizes when that's blocked.
随着时间的推移，你知道，你内心的某些东西希望这种成长并推动它，而当这种成长受到阻碍时，就会再次变得病态。
So people can be doing all the right things as defined by their values and their environment.
因此，人们可以根据自己的价值观和环境做所有正确的事情。
And it violates something inside.
它侵犯了内心的某些东西。
That's why we can be, quote, successful and achieve things, and it still feels empty.
这就是为什么我们可以成功并取得成就，但仍然感觉空虚。
There's no there there.
那里没有。
You know, you get to the top of the ladder and you realize there's no there there.
你知道，当你到达梯子的顶端时，你意识到那里什么也没有。
And that happens so often in our culture.
这种情况在我们的文化中经常发生。
I remember one of the fiscal figures in the late 20th century who had a personal fortune of $400 million.
我记得20世纪末的一位财务人物拥有4亿美元的个人财富。
He was asked what was his philosophy of life and he said, Well, at the end of life, the person with the biggest pile wins.
有人问他的人生哲学是什么，他说，好吧，在生命的尽头，拥有最大堆的人获胜。
And I remember thinking, how infantile is that?
我记得当时我在想，这太幼稚了？
This was a smart man.
这是一个聪明人。
An elder statesman in his field ultimately went to prison because of some things.
一位业内资深政治家最终因为一些事情入狱。
That's the philosophy of the sandbox.
这就是沙盒的哲学。
I have the biggest pile of sand.
我有最大的一堆沙子。
I've won.
我赢了。
No, you haven't won.
不，你还没有赢。
And it's a pile of sand.
而且还是一堆沙子。
What are you talking about?
你在说什么？
And yet this is what drove the man's life, and obviously drove him across enough lines.
然而，这就是驱动这个人一生的动力，并且显然驱使他跨越了足够多的界限。
That it got him into legal troubles sooner or later.
这迟早会让他陷入法律麻烦。
And again, I say that without judgment.
再说一次，我这么说并不带任何判断力。
I'm just saying, here's an example.
我只是说，这是一个例子。
Of a very achieved person.
一个非常有成就的人。
Who's been living an infantile philosophy, and as such, something else causes him to pay greatly for that.
他一直生活在一种幼稚的哲学之中，因此，其他的事情让他为此付出了巨大的代价。
Yeah, well, I certainly can say that.
是的，我当然可以这么说。
Despite having pursued work with a lot of vigor and career that without question, friendships and relationships are the most important thing.
尽管我们充满活力地从事工作和事业，但毫无疑问，友谊和人际关系是最重要的。
There's just no question, right?
没有什么问题，对吧？
Especially when things get hard.
尤其是当事情变得困难时。
That's right.
这是正确的。
You know, I actually have a list in this very book, I won't flip to it now, of the people that I'm just really blessed to call close friends, like real friends.
你知道，实际上我在这本书里有一份名单，我现在不会翻到它，名单上的人我真的很幸运可以称之为亲密朋友，就像真正的朋友一样。
That you can count on.
您可以信赖。
And to me, it seems, and I've always, my sister, I have an older sister, and she always said, you've always been a pack animal.
对我来说，似乎，我一直是，我的姐姐，我有一个姐姐，她总是说，你一直是群居动物。
I've always had big groups of, big-ish groups of friends.
我总是有一大群、一大群朋友。
And it's something I've invested in heavily, sometimes to the expense of other things.
这是我投入巨资的事情，有时会牺牲其他事情。
Including work and other relationships but but the notion that yeah the material things or that the opinions of strangers would somehow fill us.
包括工作和其他关系，但是物质事物或陌生人的意见会以某种方式填充我们的观念。
That to me is like, the most foreign concept like that's the most foreign concept but but clearly some people operate on those metrics that's like of course and my guess is that they have a a a reward horizon that is, you know, tacked to whatever it is the algorithms are that get them that thing.
对我来说，就像是最外国的概念，但显然有些人会根据这些指标进行操作，当然，我的猜测是，他们有一个奖励范围，你知道，无论算法是什么，都可以让他们得到那个东西。
And so it must feed some reward mechanism that hasn't distracted enough, like locked into this one mode of time perception, you know, just hit the mile Mark, hit the mile Mark, hit the mile Mark so that they're not aware.
因此，它必须提供一些还没有足够分散注意力的奖励机制，就像锁定在这种时间感知模式中一样，你知道，只要达到英里标记，达到英里标记，达到英里标记，这样他们就不会意识到。
But when you take somebody like that, who's been doing that for a lifetime and you say, wait, you know, you're on this track going around and around and accruing trophies, but actually that track doesn't go anywhere.
但是，当你看到这样一个人，他一生都在这样做，你会说，等等，你知道，你在这条赛道上一圈又一圈，积累奖杯，但实际上这条赛道不会去任何地方。
It doesn't lead you into the world.
它不会带你进入这个世界。
That's right.
这是正确的。
My guess is that they, they just, they've been doing it so long that they're like an animal that's just been, you know, digging a trench in, in its zoo confined cage.
我的猜测是，他们，他们只是，他们已经这样做了太久了，以至于他们就像一只动物，你知道，在动物园的笼子里挖了一条沟渠。
Which is something I'm finding with a lot of the men that I see.
这是我在我见过的很多男人身上发现的。
I happen to see right now in my practice several men between 60 and 80, and one's 82.
我现在在诊所里碰巧看到几个60岁到80岁之间的男人，其中一个是82岁。
And of course, they've been conditioned to work.
当然，他们已经适应了工作。
And then suddenly, you know, on Monday morning, you don't have to stop and think who you are.
然后突然之间，你知道，在周一早上，你不必停下来思考你是谁。
You get up and you go to work and you do what you've done all these years.
你起床去工作，做你这些年来所做的事情。
And then suddenly you don't do that.
然后突然间你不再那么做了。
What are you going to do?
你会怎样做？
Well, you say, well, I'm going to go play golf every day.
好吧，你说，好吧，我要每天去打高尔夫球。
Well, okay, go do that.
好吧，好吧，去做吧。
But typically, within three or four months, the depression comes, and they'll think about, well, I need to get back into doing this or get doing that, you see.
但通常情况下，三四个月内，抑郁症就会来临，他们会想，好吧，我需要重新开始做这个或做那个，你看。
So often we find people defined by exactly that kind of mentality.
我们经常发现人们就是以这种心态来定义的。
I've finished the first lap, so what do I do?
我已经完成了第一圈，那么我该怎么办？
Run another lap and run another lap.
再跑一圈，再跑一圈。
And you realize you keep coming back to the same starting point.
你意识到你总是回到同一个起点。
That's why I say it's not what you do, it's what it's in service to inside that makes a difference.
这就是为什么我说，重要的不是你做了什么，而是它为内部服务的内容。
So is that person being successful by external standards?
那么按照外部标准来看，这个人是否成功呢？
Yes, whatever that means.
是的，无论这意味着什么。
Does that mean that their psyche is going to cooperate and give them that genuine sense of satisfaction in something?
这是否意味着他们的心灵会合作并给他们带来真正的满足感？
No, it won't.
不，不会的。
It's autonomous.
它是自主的。
It's not going to get co-opted into that.
它不会被纳入其中。
And sooner or later, you know, chickens come home to roost.
你知道，鸡迟早会回家栖息。
And then you have a depression, as I experienced, and or you find your relationships are in tatters all around you.
然后你就会陷入抑郁，就像我经历过的那样，或者你发现你周围的人际关系都支离破碎。
So, sooner or later, I mean, no revelation on my part, nature will express itself.
所以，我的意思是，无论我做什么，大自然迟早都会表现出来。
If we live long enough, then everything that we've pushed underground is going to be coming up.
如果我们活得足够长，那么我们埋藏在地下的一切都会浮现出来。
You mentioned men in particular, so now would probably be a good time to ask about men in particular.
您特别提到了男性，所以现在可能是特别询问男性的好时机。
You wrote Under Saturn's Shadow, which is how I initially learned about your work, and then I listened to some of your lectures online.
你写了《土星阴影下》，这就是我最初了解你的作品的方式，然后我在网上听了你的一些讲座。
I'm still in the process of reading your other books.
我仍在阅读您的其他书籍。
But- Let's talk about...
但是-我们来谈谈...
Archetypes, stereotypes of men and women, with the intention, of course, of better understanding what's real as opposed to what stereotype.
原型，对男性和女性的刻板印象，当然是为了更好地理解什么是真实的，而不是刻板印象。
So in the, let's call it the 1930s, 40s, 50s, 60s view of men in the United States and elsewhere.
所以，我们称之为 1930 年代、40 年代、50 年代、60 年代美国和其他地方的男性观点。
There was this notion of the stoic and work and duty and to some extent, a fair amount of mystique.
有一种坚忍、工作和责任的观念，在某种程度上还有相当多的神秘感。
Because with fewer words, we have less awareness, at least of what people are saying, who knows what they're thinking, whether or not they talk a lot or not.
因为言语越少，我们的意识就越少，至少不知道人们在说什么，谁知道他们在想什么，无论他们是否说得很多。
But there was this idea of, of the, the male as somebody who did stuff, maybe thought about it.
但有这样一种想法，即男性是做事的人，也许是思考过的人。
But didn't really talk about it much.
但并没有真正谈论太多。
Nowadays, things have changed.
如今，情况发生了变化。
This is borne out in the statistics on college campuses about how many people seek therapy if they have an issue.
大学校园的统计数据证实了这一点，即有多少人在遇到问题时寻求治疗。
It's gone from like 15% to 85 plus percent, at least roughly in the statistics I've seen.
从我看到的统计数据来看，这个比例已经从 15% 左右增加到了 85% 以上。
But in terms of males and their sense of duty and how they're supposed to be in the world, I would think just the way I just laid out the little, you know, by all admittance, like just very antiquated.
但就男性和他们的责任感以及他们应该如何生活而言，我认为就像我刚才阐述的那样，你知道，诚然，就像非常过时的一样。
Now view of maleness.
现在对男性的看法。
That they would be thinking a lot about what's going on.
他们会对正在发生的事情进行很多思考。
It would meet some of the daily practices that you talked about earlier, that there would be reflection, that there would be consciousness, there would be an understanding of one's shadow, or...
它会符合你之前谈到的一些日常实践，会有反思，会有意识，会有对自己影子的理解，或者……
If one were to add in the other stereotype that went with it, that they drink a lot, right?
如果再加上另一种与之相伴的刻板印象，那就是他们喝了很多酒，对吗？
That was very much, I'll remember my first, I went to graduate school first at Berkeley before I shifted to a different place.
这非常重要，我会记得我的第一次，我先在伯克利读研究生，然后才搬到另一个地方。
And I was told when I got there that it used to be that the faculty and graduate students, of which at that time in the 1970s and 60s was mostly male, mostly, now that's changed, fortunately, right, that they would meet every day after work to drink and then stagger home to their partners every day.
而且我一到那里就被告知，以前都是教员和研究生，在20世纪70年代、60年代的时候，大部分都是男性，现在变了，幸运的是，他们每天下班后都会聚在一起喝酒，然后每天摇摇晃晃地回家去找他们的伴侣。
And I was shocked.
我很震惊。
I'm like, are you kidding me?
我说，你在开玩笑吧？
I was like, no, every single day.
我当时想，不，每一天。
So, you know, the idea here is that that was the old view.
所以，你知道，这里的想法是那是旧观点。
Now things are very different.
现在情况大不相同了。
But what about the work of...
但是工作呢...
Men, men and boys to try and understand their own psyche better?
男人、男人和男孩是否应该尝试更好地了解自己的心理？
What, what is the, what are the things that are specific to them that you've talked about?
您所谈论的具体针对他们的事情是什么？
And then we'll turn to women and then we'll, we'll do our best to bridge the divide in a conversation.
然后我们会转向女性，然后我们会尽力弥合对话中的分歧。
Well, just to go back to our earlier conversation for a moment, you know, why would those men have to drink every day?
好吧，回到我们之前的谈话，你知道，为什么那些男人必须每天喝酒？
And the answer is because there was some deep pain that they had to anesthetize.
答案是因为他们必须麻醉一些深层次的疼痛。
Of which they were by and large unaware, or presumably they would have the opportunity to address whatever that was.
他们基本上没有意识到这一点，或者想必他们有机会解决这一问题。
And I'll come back to that in a moment.
我稍后会回到这个话题。
I've been asked often to speak about men by women's groups.
女性团体经常邀请我谈论男性。
And by the way, men's groups have never asked me to talk about women, right?
顺便说一句，男性团体从来没有要求我谈论女性，对吗？
Is that right?
是这样吗？
That's right.
这是正确的。
Individuals such as yourself, but it's mostly women's groups have asked me to talk about those strange creatures called men.
像你这样的个人，但主要是女性团体，要求我谈论那些被称为男人的奇怪生物。
And I say, imagine these three things.
我说，想象一下这三件事。
First of all, that you cut away all your close friends, the women that you share your worries about your marriage with, about your children, about your body, your love life or lack thereof, you know, those people are gone forever.
首先，你要切断所有亲密的朋友，那些与你分享对你的婚姻、你的孩子、你的身体、你的爱情生活或缺乏爱情生活的担忧的女人，你知道，那些人永远消失了。
There's no one you can share that with.
没有人可以与你分享这一点。
Secondly, you have to sever your link to whatever your guiding source may be.
其次，你必须切断与任何指导来源的链接。
Call it your instinct or your intuition, whatever it is.
称其为你的本能或直觉，无论它是什么。
That's cut off.
就这样被切断了。
It's not acceptable.
这是不可接受的。
And thirdly, your value as a human being will be defined by your meeting abstract standards of productivity as defined by total strangers in your culture.
第三，你作为一个人的价值将由你是否满足抽象的生产力标准来定义，而抽象的生产力标准是由你的文化中完全陌生的人定义的。
And sooner or later, no matter how much you win today, you'll wind up a loser.
迟早，无论你今天赢了多少，你最终都会成为失败者。
And the thing is, you hold that off as long as you can.
问题是，你要尽可能推迟。
So keep running, all right?
所以继续跑，好吗？
And women hear that and they think, well, that's horrible.
女人们听到这个消息后会想，这太可怕了。
That's horrible.
太可怕了。
How lonely that would be, how isolating that would be, and of course it is, it's self-estranging.
那将是多么孤独，多么孤立，当然，这是自我疏远。
You know, my poor father was pulled out of the eighth grade, sent to work in the factory, worked.
你知道，我可怜的父亲从八年级退学，被送到工厂工作，工作。
All of his life in that factory.
他的一生都在那家工厂里度过。
And by the standards of his day, he was a good man.
按照他那个时代的标准，他是一个好人。
He supported his family.
他支持他的家人。
He didn't run away.
他没有逃跑。
He accepted the responsibility.
他接受了这个责任。
But I also know he didn't live with his own soul.
但我也知道他没有用自己的灵魂生活。
I know that.
我知道。
And I had clues here and there.
我到处都有线索。
And I even saw that as a child.
我什至小时候就看到过这一点。
And so when I started to reflect on men, I realized I had my own inhibitions about that.
所以当我开始反思男人时，我意识到我对此也有自己的顾虑。
And I was, fortunately enough as a therapist, I would say, all right, what would you say to someone who expressed these inhibitions?
幸运的是，我是一名治疗师，我会说，好吧，你会对表达这些抑制的人说什么？
I would say, all right, there's some fears here that you're defending yourself against.
我想说，好吧，这里有一些恐惧，你正在为自己辩护。
What's that about?
那是关于什么的？
So I thought, and then I had a voice in me that said, but these are secret.
所以我想，然后我内心有一个声音说，但这些都是秘密。
You don't talk about it.
你不谈这个。
And then I thought, well, that's my duty, isn't it?
然后我想，好吧，这就是我的职责，不是吗？
I have to bring some of those things up.
我必须提出其中一些事情。
And so that's what led to the writing of the book Under Saturn Shadow.
这就是《土星阴影下》一书的写作原因。
Um...
嗯...
I suggested a number of those secrets.
我提出了其中一些秘密。
One is men's lives are as much governed by role expectations as women's lives are.
一是男性的生活与女性的生活一样受到角色期望的支配。
Less so today, but in the past they were ironclad, right?
如今情况有所不同，但在过去他们是铁打的，对吧？
And the net effect of those roles was self-estranging.
这些角色的最终效果是自我疏远。
You know, you are your function.
你知道，你就是你的职能。
You are your duties.
你就是你的职责。
Men's lives are governed by fear-based responses.
男人的生活受到基于恐惧的反应的控制。
And there's a certain level of competitiveness that is central to men's culture.
一定程度的竞争力是男性文化的核心。
Women learn through the years, probably out of necessity.
女性多年来不断学习，可能是出于需要。
To cooperate and support each other.
互相配合、互相支持。
And they can get through difficult things by doing that.
他们可以通过这样做来度过困难的事情。
For men, you're always having to demonstrate.
对于男人来说，你总是需要表现出来。
Your competency in one area or another.
您在某一领域或另一领域的能力。
And the one thing you don't want to do is be a loser, you see.
你不想做的一件事就是成为一个失败者，你看。
It's a zero-sum game, winners and losers.
这是一场零和游戏，有赢家，也有输家。
And ultimately, there's a deep, deep longing for, well, there's a fear of the feminine, so-called, that can include the feminine within.
最终，有一种深深的渴望，嗯，有一种对女性的恐惧，所谓的，可以包括女性在内。
Hence, men's estranging themselves from themselves.
因此，人们疏远了自己。
I had a client many years ago who was sent into therapy by his wife saying, you know, either you go to therapy or I'm out of here.
许多年前，我有一位客户，他的妻子送他去接受治疗，他说，你知道，要么你去接受治疗，要么我就离开这里。
So he was there very reluctantly.
所以他很不情愿地就在那里。
And he walked in and he saw a box of tissue there, a Kleenex box.
他走进去，看到那里有一盒纸巾，一个纸巾盒。
And he just kind of sniffed at that.
他只是对此嗤之以鼻。
Without saying anything.
什么也没说。
And I knew exactly what he was saying, but I acted like I didn't.
我很清楚他在说什么，但我表现得好像我不知道。
And he thought I'd missed the clue.
他以为我错过了线索。
Pointed the box and sniffed again.
指着盒子又闻了闻。
And I said, what's this about?
我说，这是怎么回事？
And he said, well, you had a woman in here before, don't you?
他说，好吧，你以前有过一个女人在这里，不是吗？
I'm not going to be needing that.
我不需要那个。
And I said, you know, every man has a lake of tears inside of himself and a mountain of anger in there.
我说，你知道，每个人内心都有一个泪湖和一座愤怒之山。
And I said, sooner or later.
我说，迟早。
And he said, no, no, we have better ways of dealing with that.
他说，不，不，我们有更好的方法来处理这个问题。
And I thought, well, our prognosis is not very good here.
我想，好吧，我们的预后不太好。
He left after about five sessions because it was just going to ask more than he was capable of.
大约五次疗程后，他离开了，因为这要求的要求超出了他的能力。
So there's a fear of the feminist, like I have to be so much in my masculine mode of combativeness or competitiveness or expression of competency.
因此，人们对女权主义者感到恐惧，就像我必须以男性的方式来表现好斗、竞争或表达能力一样。
I can't afford anything that one would undo.
我无法承担任何可以撤销的事情。
My shaky hold on that, wheresoever you see macho behavior.
无论你在哪里看到男子气概的行为，我对这一点的把握都不稳定。
You see fear-based overcompensation is what it amounts to, right?
你看，基于恐惧的过度补偿就是这个意思，对吧？
You know, saber rattling is always a fear-based response.
你知道，剑拔弩张总是一种基于恐惧的反应。
And underneath there is a very deep longing, you know, for the wise father, for the person you could see some modeling from, who would teach you something, who would share with you wisdom he's learned along the way.
在内心深处，有一种非常深切的渴望，你知道，对明智的父亲，对你可以看到一些榜样的人，他会教你一些东西，他会与你分享他一路走来学到的智慧。
And so, you know, the condition of modern men, and things have changed a great deal, and I think partly steered by the revolution in the history of women.
所以，你知道，现代男性的状况和事情已经发生了很大的变化，我认为部分是由女性历史上的革命所引导的。
You know, and their courage in addressing these stereotypes about what a woman is and what she's supposed to do with her life.
你知道，他们有勇气解决这些关于女性是什么以及她应该如何度过一生的刻板印象。
Required men to start looking at themselves as well.
要求男人也开始审视自己。
So women have done us a great favor, not always recognized by men.
所以女人给了我们很大的帮助，但并不总是得到男人的认可。
But, you know, in both cases, you have to say, all right, the message you have from family of origin and culture.
但是，你知道，在这两种情况下，你都必须说，好吧，你从原生家庭和文化中得到的信息。
May or may not work for you, but you're here to, in a certain way, deconstruct, you know, those expectations and find your own path, you see.
可能适合你，也可能不适合你，但你来这里是为了以某种方式解构那些期望，并找到你自己的道路，你看。
The Spanish analyst Irene De Castillejo, long deceased now, talked about the difference between focused awareness and diffuse awareness.
现已去世多年的西班牙分析师艾琳·德卡斯蒂列霍（Irene De Castillejo）谈到了集中意识和分散意识之间的区别。
And I think rather than talk about gender, which is a social construct coming out of this culture or this culture or this culture.
我认为与其谈论性别，不如谈论性别，这是一种来自这种文化或这种文化的社会建构。
Talk about those are two different modes of orientation to the world, and we need both.
这是两种不同的世界定位模式，我们两者都需要。
We need focused awareness that's goal-directed behavior that is historically associated with the masculine.
我们需要集中意识，即历史上与男性气质相关的目标导向行为。
And we also need this awareness of context and of relationship.
我们还需要这种对背景和关系的认识。
So this focused awareness without relatedness leads to sterility and isolation.
因此，这种没有关联性的集中意识会导致贫瘠和孤立。
And on the other hand, too diffuse without a sense of directed and purposeful behavior, you know, means that one is just sort of fumbling one's way through life too.
另一方面，如果你的行为过于分散，缺乏定向和有目的的行为，你知道，意味着一个人在生活中也摸索着前进。
I've always said to women in therapy, you know, to be a man is in a sense, your requirement is to know what you want and to do it.
我总是对接受治疗的女性说，你知道，从某种意义上说，成为一个男人，你的要求就是知道你想要什么并去做。
But you have to do that too.
但你也必须这样做。
And what Jung called the animus, that is to say, the so-called inner masculine or the inner focused awareness.
荣格所说的阿尼姆斯，即所谓的内在男性气质或内在聚焦意识。
That goal-directed behavior is what moves your life forward in a purposeful way.
这种以目标为导向的行为能够让你的生活有目的地前进。
But for men, it's about becoming aware of, again, context and relatedness.
但对于男性来说，这就是要再次意识到背景和关联性。
What happens if I have the biggest pile of sand at the end of my life?
如果我在生命的尽头拥有最大的一堆沙子，会发生什么？
Well, you know, obviously you can't take it with you, but in the end, it's only sand.
嗯，你知道，显然你不能带走它，但最终它只是沙子。
Money is only money.
钱只是钱。
What was your life about?
你的生活是关于什么的？
That's the question.
这就是问题所在。
Women have to ask that, men have to ask that, and sometimes the culture is supportive in that process, sometimes it's opposed to that, and then that's when you have to engage in a fight.
女人必须这样问，男人也必须这样问，有时文化在这个过程中是支持的，有时是反对的，然后就是你必须进行斗争的时候。
Men and women have a common summons here, and they can be very supportive of each other as well as, you know, celebrate their differences.
男人和女人在这里有一个共同的召唤，他们可以互相支持，也可以庆祝他们的差异。
And recognize, you know, as men are beginning to recognize, if you don't address what's going on inside of you, you're going to be simply a creature of adaptation, and you're going to lose your way sooner or later.
并认识到，正如人们开始认识到的那样，如果你不解决你内心发生的事情，你将只是一个适应的生物，你迟早会迷失方向。
When I came back from my training in Zurich in the 70s, Um...
七十年代，当我从苏黎世训练回来时，嗯……
I would say my practice was 90% women and 10% men.
我想说的是，我的诊所 90% 是女性，10% 是男性。
Today it's the reverse, 90% men.
今天情况正好相反，90%是男性。
I don't put out a shingle and say I see men or women.
我不会打出招牌说我看到男人或女人。
I see both.
我都看到了。
But I think, again, the change is in men now.
但我再次认为，现在的变化发生在男性身上。
They recognize.
他们认得。
They're lost in some way.
他们在某种程度上迷失了。
The old...
老...
Masculine definitions are no longer applicable.
男性定义不再适用。
You know, a lot of this happened with the Industrial Revolution, where fathers and sons worked together in the same trade.
你知道，很多这样的事情发生在工业革命时期，父子俩在同一行业一起工作。
If you were a tanner, you tanned.
如果你是晒黑者，你就会晒黑。
If you were a carpenter, you built houses.
如果你是木匠，你就建造房屋。
If you were a shepherd, you worked with the sheep and so forth.
如果你是牧羊人，你就会和羊一起工作等等。
And you sort of learn who you are from your rubbing shoulders with the father.
你可以通过与父亲的接触来了解自己是谁。
Well, today, men go away to the factory or go away to the office, and sons are at home with their mothers, you know, and they're...
好吧，今天，男人们去工厂或去办公室，而儿子们则在家里和他们的母亲在一起，你知道，他们......
Female school teachers and so forth.
学校女教师等等。
There's again this deep hunger for the initiatory father, the supportive father.
人们再次对发起性的父亲、支持性的父亲产生了深深的渴望。
In traditional cultures where there were rites of passage, they recognized the importance of Separating the boy at puberty, in a simpler culture, yes, but at puberty, it wasn't initiated by the personal father or relatives, it was by the elders in the tribe.
在有成年仪式的传统文化中，他们认识到在青春期将男孩分开的重要性，在更简单的文化中，是的，但在青春期，这不是由个人父亲或亲戚发起的，而是由部落中的长辈发起的。
Often wearing masks or painted faces because they were archetypal forces.
经常戴着面具或画着脸，因为他们是典型的力量。
They were not the neighbor down the street.
他们不是街上的邻居。
It was like, you're in the hands of the gods now, and they require you to leave home.
就好像，你现在在众神的手中，他们要求你离开家。
And we're going to teach you things, but we're also going to bring about some forms of isolation and suffering for you to begin to realize that you have within you the resources to undertake this journey.
我们将教给你们一些东西，但我们也会给你们带来某种形式的孤立和痛苦，让你们开始意识到你们内部拥有进行这一旅程的资源。
What we have now is a whole culture of uninitiated males who haven't left home, psychologically speaking.
我们现在所拥有的是一种由没有经验的男性组成的文化，从心理上来说，他们还没有离开家。
You know, in the past, they were simply governed by masculine roles.
要知道，在过去，他们只是受男性角色的支配。
And now, as those have dissolved for many men.
而现在，对于许多男人来说，这些已经消失了。
There's very little sense of, well, what does it mean to be a man?
人们很少意识到，作为一个男人意味着什么？
What am I supposed to do as a man?
作为一个男人我应该做什么？
And the answer basically is go live your life.
答案基本上是过你的生活。
Find your path.
找到你的路。
Find the courage and resolve and resources to sustain that over time.
找到勇气、决心和资源来长期维持这一点。
But, you know, how to do that is, there's no model for that.
但是，你知道，如何做到这一点，没有任何模型。
You have to sort of find that yourself, you see.
你必须自己找到这一点，你看。
And that's what brings people into therapy at times.
这有时就是人们接受治疗的原因。
And it's interesting that I have right now this collection, and it's consonant with my own stage of life journey too.
有趣的是，我现在拥有这个系列，它也与我自己的人生旅程阶段相一致。
I only have one man under 50.
我身边只有一个50岁以下的男人。
All of the others are interested in how you deal with aging and mortality for good reason.
所有其他人都对你如何应对衰老和死亡感兴趣，这是有充分理由的。
And they're also dealing with how do I define myself other than my work?
他们也在处理除了我的工作之外我如何定义自己？
And that's where the unlived life often is coming back in a very useful way, all right?
这就是那些未曾经历过的生活常常以一种非常有用的方式回归的地方，好吗？
Although there are some things that have left and not coming back in terms of the changes in the body and that sort of thing.
虽然有些东西，从身体的变化之类的方面来说，已经离开了，就再也没有回来了。
But basically...
但基本上...
Now is the time to address this emotional, developmental, spiritual life.
现在是解决这种情感、发展、精神生活的时候了。
That is to say, do you have any concept of a story that's larger than the stories of your complexes?
也就是说，你有比你的情结故事更大的故事概念吗？
You see, it doesn't mean one has to be part of a religious group.
你看，这并不意味着一个人必须是宗教团体的一部分。
It means that you have to question, what quickens the spirit in me?
这意味着你必须质疑，是什么让我的精神活跃起来？
What stirs me inside?
是什么让我内心激动？
What touches me?
什么触动了我？
Where do I encounter the numinous?
我在哪里遇到超灵？
And the word numinous means there's something there that causes this reaction within me.
“神秘”这个词意味着有某种东西在我体内引起了这种反应。
So if you and I walk into an art museum, let's say, and you're touched by a particular painting and frightened by it or moved to tears by it or whatever, and the other person walks by and is indifferent, which is a right?
所以，如果你和我走进一个艺术博物馆，比方说，你被一幅特定的画所感动，被它吓到，或者被它感动得流泪等等，而另一个人走过，漠不关心，这是对的吗？
Well, it's not right or wrong.
嗯，这没有对或错。
It's this here correlates with something in here.
这里的这个与这里的某些东西相关。
That's what caused that resonance.
这就是引起共鸣的原因。
And that resonance is your engagement with something numinous for you.
这种共鸣就是你与某些对你来说神圣的事物的接触。
You don't have to know it or explain it or whatever, but you have to value it and ask, what is it that was touched in me?
你不必知道它或解释它或其他什么，但你必须重视它并问，是什么触动了我？
And if it doesn't speak to me, duty or convention or expectations insufficient to make it happen.
如果它不适合我，责任、惯例或期望不足以实现它。
We can't will these things to be numinous.
我们不能希望这些东西成为神圣的。
Numinosity is something that's defined by one soul and not by the collective, that's for sure.
毫无疑问，神秘性是由一个灵魂而不是集体定义的。
And women and men in time, I think, will find that they have very similar goals in their life.
我认为，随着时间的推移，女性和男性会发现他们的生活目标非常相似。
And that's how to balance my journey with the legitimate commitments of relationship on the other side.
这就是如何平衡我的旅程与另一方关系的合法承诺。
And that's why we have that wonderful word sacrifice, you know, not surrender.
这就是为什么我们有“牺牲”这个美妙的词，你知道，而不是投降。
Sacrifice is sacra facere, to make sacred.
牺牲是sacrafacere，使之神圣。
If you're sacrificing on behalf of a value that is right for you and for your project together.
如果您为了适合您和您的项目的价值而做出牺牲。
Then you're both served by that.
那么你们俩都会受益匪浅。
On the other hand, you don't sacrifice the journey of the individual spirit, too.
另一方面，你也不会牺牲个人精神的旅程。
And again, it's about balancing that as best one can.
再说一遍，这是要尽可能地平衡这一点。
And there's very little in our culture that rewards that, but then the price is again the symptomatology that comes from to the surface.
在我们的文化中很少有对此给予奖励，但代价又是来自表面的症状。
And from a psychodynamic standpoint we don't say well how quickly you'll get rid of the symptoms, we say why if they come.
从心理动力学的角度来看，我们并没有很好地说明你会多快摆脱症状，我们会说如果症状出现的话为什么会消失。
What are they asking of me?
他们对我有什么要求？
That's why, as I said, my first question in therapy was, how quickly did I get rid of this depression, get back on the road, you know, the careerism road, right?
这就是为什么，正如我所说，我在治疗中的第一个问题是，我要多快摆脱这种抑郁症，重新走上道路，你知道，职业道路，对吗？
And I came in time to realize it was my psyche saying, you're on the wrong path, fella.
我及时意识到这是我的心灵在说，你走错了路，伙计。
You don't know.
你不知道。
It's not so much that it's wrong.
倒不是说错了。
It's just not right for you.
只是不适合你。
There's a big difference here.
这里有一个很大的区别。
And you're going to have to find a different kind of conversation in your life and so forth.
你必须在生活中找到一种不同的对话方式等等。
And during my training, I was obliged to, you know, do my clinical experience.
在我的培训期间，我有义务，你知道，做我的临床经验。
I was working in a psychiatric hospital in New Jersey.
我当时在新泽西州的一家精神病医院工作。
And sometimes I was shuttling back and forth the same day between the psychiatric hospital, a locked ward, and the university campus.
有时我会在同一天在精神病院、上锁的病房和大学校园之间来回穿梭。
And I came to realize the conversation in the hospital was more real somehow.
我开始意识到医院里的谈话在某种程度上更加真实。
It was more about things that mattered.
更多的是关于重要的事情。
And that's what began to further my resolve to move from academia to being a therapist, a working therapist and so forth.
这开始进一步坚定了我从学术界转向成为一名治疗师、工作治疗师等的决心。
The point is, I need to add this.
重点是，我需要添加这一点。
My way of responding to...
我的回应方式...
The family of origin and social context stuff.
原生家庭和社会背景的东西。
Was to retreat into the life of the mind.
就是退回到心灵的生活中。
I didn't realize that's what I was doing at the time.
我没有意识到这就是我当时正在做的事情。
That's why the psyche had to reach up and pull me under.
这就是为什么心灵必须伸出手来把我拉下去。
And, um...
而且，嗯...
Then I came to realize that the fears that I had in childhood were the ones I had to face at midlife.
然后我开始意识到，我童年时的恐惧是我在中年时必须面对的。
The difference being, I was bringing the adult's capacity.
不同的是，我带着成人的能力。
To the table that was not present to the child.
到孩子不在场的桌子上。
A quick example, in my first week working in the psychiatric hospital, I was assigned to a kind of grizzled old ex-military guy who was my mentor.
举个简单的例子，在我在精神病院工作的第一周，我被分配到一位头发花白的前军人那里，他是我的导师。
And without asking me, he took me into an autopsy.
他没有问我，就带我去尸检。
It was his, you know, let's initiate the new kid kind of thing, you know.
这是他的，你知道，让我们开始新的孩子之类的事情，你知道。
Well, I realized it was a test, so I stayed cool and so forth.
好吧，我意识到这是一个测试，所以我保持冷静等等。
All the while, I'm seeing this human body, you know, cut up and so forth in a radical way.
一直以来，我都看到这个人体，你知道，以一种激进的方式被切割等等。
And I realized all that I had fled in childhood was right there on the table before me.
我意识到我童年时期逃离的一切就在我面前的桌子上。
And it continued to perseverate in my dreams and so forth.
它继续在我的梦中坚持下去。
I was back in Zurich in my own analysis and I talked about this and my analyst said quite rightly, he said, when you've dealt with your fears, the fears of others will not be so threatening to you.
我回到苏黎世进行自己的分析，我谈到了这一点，我的分析师说得很正确，他说，当你处理好自己的恐惧时，其他人的恐惧不会对你构成如此大的威胁。
Because the closed ward I was in was at times violent and so forth and was not a pleasant situation, but I could feel my own sense of...
因为我所在的封闭病房有时会发生暴力等事情，这不是一个令人愉快的情况，但我能感觉到自己的感觉……
Purpose and gravitas in that situation after that.
此后那种情况下的目的和庄严。
So it's like you can run, but you can't hide.
这就像你可以逃跑，但你无法隐藏。
Sooner or later, what you've avoided will show up in your behaviors or your blockage in your behaviors.
迟早，你所回避的事情会在你的行为中显现出来，或者你在行为中所受到的阻碍。
So it doesn't go away, it goes somewhere.
所以它不会消失，它会去某个地方。
I'd like to just hover a bit on this idea that, you know, on the one hand, our work is to understand ourselves and what really feeds our soul.
我想稍微谈谈这个想法，你知道，一方面，我们的工作是了解我们自己以及真正滋养我们灵魂的东西。
And to try and live that forward as much as possible in a benevolent way, one would hope.
人们希望，尽可能以一种仁慈的方式向前迈进。
And on the other hand, anytime we...
另一方面，任何时候我们...
Are in the relational aspects of life, in particular romantic relationship as we sort of framed it here.
是在生活的关系方面，特别是我们在这里构建的浪漫关系。
Yes.
是的。
Because I think with friendships, and work relationships.
因为我认为有友谊和工作关系。
Oftentimes it can align with the self in a different way.
通常它可以以不同的方式与自我保持一致。
And it's our work to try and, as you said, sacrifice, to sacrifice one for the other, one for the other, in a way that over time allows both to not just persist, but grow.
我们的工作就是尝试，正如你所说，牺牲，为另一方牺牲一个，为另一个牺牲一个，随着时间的推移，双方不仅能够坚持下去，而且能够成长。
And I'm also thinking about what you said earlier, which was, you know, we should be cautious about immediately applauding the 50-year marriage, because oftentimes there's a soul death in one or both people.
我也在思考你之前所说的，你知道，我们应该谨慎地立即为50年的婚姻鼓掌，因为往往一个人或两个人的灵魂都会死亡。
And that we don't want to celebrate that.
我们不想庆祝这一点。
And yet, something pretty impressive about a 50-year marriage.
然而，50 年的婚姻却令人印象深刻。
Marriage as, as a, if for no other reason, as an endurance event, but we have to be cautious about rewarding endurance events like that because in as much as they sound to be about love, I mean, there's also the endurance event of the person that was a stockbroker for 50 years and got to the end and then walked out of the stock exchange or stepped out from behind the computer monitor and went, Oh, wow.
婚姻，如果没有其他原因的话，作为一种耐力活动，但我们必须对奖励这样的耐力活动持谨慎态度，因为尽管它们听起来与爱情有关，我的意思是，还有一个人的耐力活动，他做了50年的股票经纪人，到了最后，然后走出证券交易所或从电脑显示器后面走出来，哇哦。
I missed a lot.
我错过了很多。
That's right.
这是正确的。
So, And there's no handbook for this.
所以，没有这方面的手册。
You spend 15 minutes here and 30 minutes there, a ratio of two to one, children absorb energy and when their health or other issues in a relationship, then energy goes as well.
你在这里花 15 分钟，在那里花 30 分钟，比例为二比一，孩子们会吸收能量，当他们的健康或关系中出现其他问题时，能量也会消失。
What's the, you know, what's, how does one guide the rudder?
那是什么，你知道，那是什么，如何引导方向舵？
I mean, does it require third party support?
我的意思是，它需要第三方支持吗？
I mean, I've often thought this that because we evolved presumably in small villages where there was support that at closer proximity than perhaps we have now, people that know both individuals and have the best, in mind for both and for the collective.
我的意思是，我经常这样想，因为我们大概是在小村庄里进化的，那里的支持比我们现在更接近，人们既了解个人，又拥有最好的东西，既考虑到双方，也考虑到集体。
I mean, is there the idea that every romantic couple should have a third-party trained counselor to guide them?
我的意思是，是否有这样的想法：每对浪漫的情侣都应该有一位经过第三方培训的顾问来指导他们？
Seems like not a bad idea, although I think people are pretty resistant to that.
看起来这不是一个坏主意，尽管我认为人们对此相当抵制。
And of course, it takes resources, which is always an issue.
当然，这需要资源，这始终是一个问题。
Well, there's nothing wrong with having the third-party conversation from time to time, that's for sure.
嗯，时不时地进行第三方对话并没有什么问题，这是肯定的。
We have to remember that what we call therapy is a relatively modern invention.
我们必须记住，我们所说的治疗是一项相对现代的发明。
How was that addressed before?
之前是怎么解决的？
You're right, at the village level.
你说得对，是在村一级。
When people were living in vitalized mythological systems.
当人们生活在充满活力的神话体系中时。
They had a sense of relatedness to the cosmos, first of all.
首先，他们有一种与宇宙的联系感。
Who are the gods?
诸神是谁？
Whither do we go when we die?
当我们死后我们会去哪里？
What's this life about?
这一生到底是为了什么？
In other words, every tribe had its story.
换句话说，每个部落都有自己的故事。
Secondly, what is our relationship to nature and to live in harmony with that nature as opposed to violating it repeatedly for our own purposes?
其次，我们与自然的关系是什么，以及与自然和谐相处，而不是为了我们自己的目的而反复违反自然？
Thirdly, to whom do I belong?
第三，我属于谁？
Who is my tribe?
谁是我的部落？
Who are my people?
谁是我的人民？
And is that a life-serving or life-suppressing experience?
这是一种服务生命的经历还是抑制生命的经历？
And fourthly, is the mystery of individual journey.
第四，个人旅程的奥秘。
By what lights do I conduct my journey and so forth.
我在什么灯光下进行我的旅程等等。
And of course, those mythological systems were not particularly interested in the development of the individual, but they were certainly about the individual being subsumed into the tribal experience.
当然，这些神话系统对个人的发展并不是特别感兴趣，但它们肯定是关于个人被纳入部落经验的。
At least you have a sense of belonging.
至少你还有归属感。
Erode that and people fall out of that into the abyss of the self, as it were.
侵蚀了这一点，人们就会从中掉入自我的深渊。
Jung put it this way, he said, you know, people walked off the medieval cathedral into the abyss of the self in one of his letters, you see.
荣格是这样说的，他说，你知道，在他的一封信中，人们走出中世纪大教堂，走进了自我的深渊，你看。
And.
和。
It became a cultural contrivance with the best of intention.
它成为一种具有良好意图的文化发明。
To help people find their path.
帮助人们找到自己的道路。
And deal with whatever their psyche's reaction to, you know, again, typically, not always, but typically what brings people to therapy is that their belief system or their conventional practices are no longer working for them.
并处理他们的心理反应，你知道，通常，并非总是如此，但通常促使人们接受治疗的是他们的信仰体系或传统做法不再对他们起作用。
I had a client from Houston once who said in his AA group, their slogan was, this isn't working for me, but I do it very well.
我曾经有一位来自休斯敦的客户，他在 AA 小组中说，他们的口号是，这对我不起作用，但我做得很好。
That pretty much summarizes the first step of going into 12-step is that recognition.
这几乎概括了进入 12 步骤的第一步就是认识。
That's right.
这是正确的。
And 12-step, of course, provides so much more.
当然，12 步还可以提供更多功能。
But applicable to all of us.
但适用于我们所有人。
Our practices sooner or later will often, because they're driven by these stories that we carry intrapsychically.
我们的实践迟早会经常发生，因为它们是由我们内心携带的这些故事驱动的。
They don't work for us, but we've learned to do them with certain facility and so forth.
它们对我们不起作用，但我们已经学会了如何以一定的便利性等来做到这一点。
And that's when the discrepancy becomes so difficult, then one has to face the fire, so to speak.
可以这么说，当差异变得如此困难时，人们就必须面对火焰。
Then what matters is how am I to conduct my life in the face of these circumstances, which I'm not able to solve in the old way.
那么重要的是，面对这些我无法用旧方法解决的情况，我该如何度过我的生活。
And that's the adventure.
这就是冒险。
And that's the challenge.
这就是挑战。
And at the same time, it's intimidating to many people, understandably.
与此同时，这对很多人来说也是令人恐惧的，这是可以理解的。
So sooner or later, again, one has to say, is this your life or is it someone else's?
所以迟早，人们必须再次问自己，这是你的生活还是别人的生活？
Most people are not living their life, sadly.
可悲的是，大多数人都没有过自己的生活。
They're living reactively.
他们过着被动的生活。
They're living whatever the stories were.
无论故事如何，他们都生活着。
And I put stories not in the sense that they're so conscious as such, as they are...
我讲故事并不是因为它们本身就是有意识的，而是……
Representing whatever message we internalized and produced a splinter narrative.
代表我们内化的任何信息并产生碎片叙述。
Again, when triggered, it has the power to govern our behaviors.
同样，当它被触发时，它有能力控制我们的行为。
That's why, again, you start with your own patterns and say, where did this come from?
这就是为什么你再次从自己的模式开始并问，这是从哪里来的？
I wasn't born with it.
我不是生来就有的。
A pattern is something that is replicating itself as a result of this story spilling into the world.
模式是由于这个故事蔓延到世界而自我复制的东西。
So, you know, what I learned in my own life was I had put so much of my emotional distress up in the world of the life of the mind, which was rich and valuable.
所以，你知道，我在自己的生活中学到的是，我把这么多的情感困扰放在了思想生活的世界里，这是丰富而有价值的。
I don't repudiate that, but it was too one-sided.
我不否认这一点，但是这太片面了。
And what I had to do was come back and face what was on the operating table in that psychiatric hospital.
而我要做的就是回来面对那家精神病院手术台上的一切。
The world of repressed emotion, fears, etc., etc. It's like both are true.
压抑的情感、恐惧等等的世界。好像两者都是真的。
Now, see if you can honor both of them.
现在，看看你是否能够尊重他们两个。
And when you do, something grows and develops within you to respond to that in a new way.
当你这样做时，你内心的某些东西就会成长和发展，以一种新的方式对此做出反应。
So we've been covering a lot of human universals and things that everybody should think about and address.
因此，我们涵盖了许多人类共性以及每个人都应该思考和解决的问题。
We talked a bit about things.
我们聊了一些事情。
More or less specific to men.
或多或少是针对男性的。
Um...
嗯...
What about women?
那么女性呢？
What are some of the unique psychic challenges that they face and need to address in specific ways?
他们面临并需要以特定方式解决的一些独特的心理挑战是什么？
Sure.
当然。
Well, first of all, each woman has to examine what was the message given her by her family, by her mother.
嗯，首先，每个女人都必须检查她的家人、她的母亲给她的信息是什么。
Her family, extended family expectations and role models.
她的家人、大家庭的期望和榜样。
And cultural setting and so forth, and say, is this something that supports my personal growth and development or not?
还有文化背景等等，然后说，这是否支持我个人的成长和发展？
I mean, that's a kind of inventory.
我的意思是，这是一种库存。
Men have to ask that same question as well.
男人也必须问同样的问题。
We have to acknowledge that biological differences suggest if you're a woman, you're the one who's going to be carrying that baby.
我们必须承认，生物学差异表明，如果您是女性，那么您就是将要怀上孩子的人。
And still in our culture, the major responsibility for it, while shared by father and mother, hopefully, still is something you have to attend.
仍然在我们的文化中，尽管父亲和母亲共同承担了主要责任，但希望您仍然必须承担这一责任。
And many women are trying to have it both ways, as we know, the career development and being a parent at the same time.
正如我们所知，许多女性正试图兼顾职业发展和为人父母。
I saw a survey some years ago that a large number of women executives, all had MBAs and had all achieved, you know, like vice president status or something in their corporation.
几年前我看到一项调查显示，大量女性高管都拥有 MBA 学位，并且都取得了副总裁职位或公司中的其他职位。
When asked around age 50, would you do this all again?
当被问到50岁左右时，你还会做这一切吗？
Almost 100% said no. It costs too much for me.
几乎100%的人都说不。这对我来说成本太高了。
It costs me too much.
这让我付出了太多的代价。
They felt something else was missing.
他们觉得还缺少一些东西。
They felt friendship was missing.
他们觉得友谊缺失了。
They felt intimacy was missing.
他们感觉缺少了亲密感。
In many cases, they felt parenting was missing or it had gotten short shrift, you see.
在很多情况下，他们觉得养育子女的缺失或者被忽视了，你看。
As men often face when they look at retirement.
正如男人在考虑退休时经常面临的问题。
You know, there's the old saying, on your deathbed, you don't say, gee, I wish I spent more time at the office.
你知道，有句老话，在你临终前，你不会说，天啊，我希望我能在办公室呆更多的时间。
You know, it's like, I wish I'd done this or that.
你知道，就像，我希望我做了这个或那个。
I know a few scientists who, to this day, say that they plan to die in their office.
我认识一些科学家，直到今天他们还说他们计划死在办公室里。
It's always a sad thing for me to hear this.
听到这件事对我来说总是一件悲伤的事情。
I also know their children in many cases, and that's about.
我在很多情况下也认识他们的孩子，仅此而已。
Four-fifths of the time is not a good picture.
五分之四的时间都不是一张好照片。
That's right.
这是正确的。
Yeah.
是的。
And again, not all, right?
再说一遍，不是全部，对吧？
There's four-fifths, but because other colleagues are spectacular parents, but I grew up with the children of a lot of academics and a lot of times it ain't a pretty picture.
有五分之四，但因为其他同事都是出色的父母，但我和很多学者的孩子一起长大，很多时候这并不是一个美好的画面。
That's right.
这是正确的。
So I think that another thing that men in our time really need to learn is if you're in a relationship, Part of your role is supporting the growth and development of your partner.
所以我认为，我们这个时代的男人真正需要学习的另一件事是，如果你处于恋爱关系中，你的部分角色就是支持你的伴侣的成长和发展。
And the more insecure the man, the more threatened he will be by that, because she might go off in some other direction, you see.
男人越没有安全感，他受到的威胁就越大，因为她可能会走向其他方向，你看。
And that means sharing household duties and sharing childcare and so forth, which you do to the best of your ability.
这意味着分担家务、分担育儿等等，你要尽你最大的能力去做。
Having a child and having two careers requires an enormous amount of juggling, as we all know.
众所周知，养育孩子和从事两份职业需要大量的兼顾。
But you can do it in good faith with the best of intentions.
但你可以出于善意、怀着最好的意图去做。
If not, resentment builds.
如果没有，就会产生怨恨。
And one-sidedness builds.
片面性也随之形成。
So I think...
所以我认为...
For women, they still need a partner.
对于女性来说，她们还是需要一个伴侣。
That will buy into the notion of genuine reciprocity in our responsibility to each other and to our work together, which includes child rearing.
这将体现我们对彼此和共同工作（包括抚养孩子）的责任中真正互惠的理念。
Without which women are unduly burdened, you see, unfairly burdened.
如果没有这些，女性就会承受过度的负担，你看，这是不公平的负担。
And I don't think we've solved that one yet.
我认为我们还没有解决这个问题。
I think that's still open-ended in the culture at this point.
我认为目前这在文化中仍然是开放式的。
On the other hand, it's stunning to see women grab hold of the opportunities available now.
另一方面，令人惊讶的是看到女性抓住了现在的机会。
I'm living in a retirement community as of a year ago, and so many of the women that I've had dinner with, my wife and I have dinner with various people, have said, well, when I was at this stage, women were not allowed to do this.
一年前，我住在一个退休社区，与我共进晚餐的许多女性，我和我的妻子与不同的人共进晚餐，都说，好吧，当我在这个阶段时，女性不被允许这样做。
One woman was a scientist and she said, I just wasn't recognized in the physics world until like late in my life.
一位女士是一名科学家，她说，我只是在晚年才在物理学界得到认可。
And you forget how recently that was the case.
你忘记了这是最近发生的事情。
I mean, that was a deep violation of the human spirit.
我的意思是，这是对人类精神的严重侵犯。
But it was routine.
但这是例行公事。
And so many of the women that I see there who are going to be over 70, most of them are over 80.
我在那里看到的很多女性都将超过 70 岁，其中大多数已经超过 80 岁。
Lived in a world that was not unlike a segregated world.
生活在一个与隔离世界没有什么不同的世界。
You know, just as, you know, I grew up where segregation was practiced.
你知道，就像我在实行种族隔离的地方长大一样。
By half of this country.
这个国家的一半。
It's not so long ago.
这并不是很久以前的事了。
Somewhat hard to fathom how much things have changed and yet also how much things persist.
有点难以理解有多少事情发生了变化，又有多少事情持续存在。
That's right.
这是正确的。
That's right.
这是正确的。
Well, and, you know, the 60s happened and what happened to the 60s is a kind of resurgence from below in both men and women, some men and some women, to overthrow the sort of oppressive nature of role definitions and so forth.
嗯，而且，你知道，60 年代发生了，60 年代发生的事情是男性和女性，一些男性和一些女性的一种自下而上的复兴，推翻了角色定义等的那种压迫性。
You know, I mean, you couldn't.
你知道，我的意思是，你不能。
Think of marrying a person in another religion, for example.
例如，考虑与另一个宗教信仰的人结婚。
You couldn't think of marrying someone of a different race.
你不可能想到与不同种族的人结婚。
The price of that meant you had to go live anonymously in the city somewhere.
这样做的代价意味着你必须匿名住在城市的某个地方。
Or you couldn't be gay, for example.
或者，例如，你不能是同性恋。
The love that dare not speak its name, as it was called.
不敢说出它的名字的爱，就像它的名字一样。
All of that's been radically challenged, and rightly so.
所有这些都受到了根本性的挑战，这是理所当然的。
And yet what that does is bring about a world of great freedom, greater freedom.
然而，这确实带来了一个伟大自由的世界，更大的自由。
But also ambiguity.
但也有歧义。
If this isn't right, well, but what's this and what's that?
如果这不对，那么，这是什么，那是什么？
And people are troubled by ambiguity.
人们常常被模糊性所困扰。
And so therefore, there's always a reactive nature in some individuals who are fighting that, you see.
因此，你看，一些与之抗争的人总是具有反应性。
So again, it shows up in various issues of racism, whether we have abortion or not, or whatever the social issue may be.
因此，它再次出现在各种种族主义问题中，无论我们是否堕胎，或者无论是什么社会问题。
A lot of what's playing out there is the...
那里正在上演的很多事情都是......
Traditional role definitions versus a sense of the autonomy of the individual to live his or her journey.
传统的角色定义与个人经历其旅程的自主感相对。
I'd like to shift a bit to discussions of pathology or asserted pathology.
我想稍微讨论一下病理学或所谓的病理学。
Nowadays.
如今。
I think thanks again to Social Media or no thanks to Social Media.
我想再次感谢社交媒体或不感谢社交媒体。
There's a lot of use of psychological terms.
心理学术语的使用很多。
Narcissism.
自恋。
Projection, gaslighting.
投影、煤气灯。
Clinical diagnoses.
临床诊断。
I admittedly took the liberty of saying that I, as a non-clinician, view the landscape of a lot of Social Media as borderline, and I have no credential to be able to diagnose an individual, let alone the internet.
我承认，我冒昧地说，作为一名非临床医生，我将许多社交媒体的景观视为边缘，而且我没有能够诊断个人的凭证，更不用说互联网了。
So I'll be clear about my limitations whenever possible.
因此，只要有可能，我就会明确我的局限性。
There are real pathologies of the psyche, of the mind.
心灵、心灵确实存在病态。
I'd be curious about your view of the ones that tend to capture people's attention the most.
我很好奇您对最能吸引人们注意力的内容有何看法。
I think we now understand some of the neurochemical basis of certain psychiatric challenges, schizophrenia, bipolar in particular, OCD in particular, sometimes by way of which medications they respond to or don't.
我认为我们现在了解了某些精神疾病、精神分裂症、双相情感障碍、强迫症的一些神经化学基础，有时是通过他们对哪些药物有反应或没有反应来了解的。
But that alone doesn't allow us to understand their underlying mechanisms.
但仅凭这一点并不能让我们了解它们的潜在机制。
I think a lot of that is still mysterious, but I'd love to get a different perspective on these things, which is the psychological perspective, which of course embraces biology, but looks at it a little bit differently.
我认为其中很多仍然是神秘的，但我很想对这些事情有不同的看法，这是心理学的观点，它当然包含生物学，但看待它的方式有点不同。
So yeah, what are your thoughts about the way that these days?
那么，是的，你对这些天的方式有什么想法？
These words are slung and...
这些话被抛在一边......
And what's your view about our actual treatment for these conditions, both for the people suffering from them and the people that suffer because others suffer from them?
您对我们对这些疾病的实际治疗有何看法，无论是对患有这些疾病的人还是因为其他人患有这些疾病而受苦的人？
Yeah.
是的。
Well, you're asking me to speak both as a therapist and as a citizen, I think, and I'll address the first one first.
好吧，我想，你要求我以治疗师和公民的身份发言，我将首先解决第一个问题。
Part of the therapist's role is to differential diagnosis.
治疗师的部分职责是进行鉴别诊断。
In other words, if a person comes in with a depression, we have to try to define what kind of depression we're talking about.
换句话说，如果一个人患有抑郁症，我们必须尝试定义我们正在谈论的抑郁症类型。
There are different kinds of depression.
抑郁症有多种类型。
Is this a reactive depression?
这是反应性抑郁症吗？
It's only pathological if it lasts too long or interferes with their normal functioning too much.
只有当这种情况持续太久或过多干扰其正常功能时，才是病态的。
And that's a judgment call.
这是一个判断。
If a person's grieving the loss of something important in their life, the loss of a marriage, let's say, it's appropriate to feel depressed for a certain length of time until life's challenges move one forward and so forth.
如果一个人因失去生命中重要的东西（比如说失去婚姻）而感到悲伤，那么在一段时间内感到沮丧是适当的，直到生活中的挑战推动一个人前进等等。
There is biologically driven depression.
存在生物驱动的抑郁症。
Which can be approached with medication.
可以通过药物来解决。
Although many of the antidepressants are very limited in their success, long-term therapy tends to be more effective, as various studies have recognized, albeit there's an economic cost to that.
尽管许多抗抑郁药的成功率非常有限，但正如各种研究所认识到的那样，长期治疗往往更有效，尽管这会带来经济成本。
And then thirdly, there's what you can call an intra-psychic depression, which is what I experienced.
第三，你可以称之为内心抑郁，这就是我所经历的。
Was that, you know, there were certain parts of my life that had been walled off.
你知道吗，我生活中的某些部分被隔离了。
And, you know, that was crying out.
而且，你知道，那是哭声。
Pathology comes from the Greek word pathos, which means suffering.
病理学源自希腊语pathos，意思是痛苦。
And logos, which means expression of.
还有徽标，意思是表达。
So pathology means the expression of the suffering.
所以病理学意味着痛苦的表达。
Psychopathology is an expression of the suffering of the soul.
精神病理学是灵魂痛苦的表达。
So what is it in terms of this person's natural desire to live in a meaningful way that's interfering with their life?
那么，是什么干扰了这个人以有意义的方式生活的自然愿望呢？
Is it biologically driven?
是生物驱动的吗？
Is it a function of the social context in which they live?
这是他们生活的社会背景的函数吗？
Or is it some...
或者是有些...
Personal task that they have to address.
他们必须解决的个人任务。
And that kind of differential diagnosis is essential.
这种鉴别诊断至关重要。
And as you said, there are certain conditions that are predominantly biologically driven, such as schizophrenia, bipolar, etc. So, secondly, then, speaking as a citizen.
正如你所说，有些情况主要是由生物学驱动的，例如精神分裂症、躁郁症等。所以，其次，作为一个公民来说。
You know.
你知道。
The internet, and I don't want to get lost in the internet again, but it's like it's a vast open stage in which whatever is unaddressed in people can be put out there.
互联网，我不想再次迷失在互联网中，但这就像一个巨大的开放舞台，人们未解决的任何问题都可以在那里发表。
Without censorship, without reflection, without the other being represented.
没有审查，没有反思，没有他人的代表。
And, you know, it allows people to reveal whatever is going on within them.
而且，你知道，它可以让人们揭示他们内心发生的一切。
Without genuine dialogue.
没有真正的对话。
And of course you can have opposition, but what has to happen typically is again associating with like-minded people.
当然，你可能会遇到反对意见，但通常必须再次与志同道合的人交往。
I must be right because these other people agree with me.
我一定是对的，因为其他人也同意我的观点。
So, you know, any of these terms can be misappropriated and will be sooner or later.
所以，你知道，这些术语中的任何一个都可能被盗用，而且迟早会被盗用。
So, what one has to say is we can only make diagnoses with observation over time.
所以，不得不说的是，我们只能通过一段时间的观察来做出诊断。
It's very hard initially to know what's really going on.
一开始很难知道到底发生了什么。
As I mentioned, what we do or what someone does is logical.
正如我所提到的，我们所做的或某人所做的都是合乎逻辑的。
What we don't know is what it's in service to inside of them.
我们不知道它是为它们内部服务的。
And you will not get much sense of that by the internet because it's too superficial.
你不会通过互联网得到太多的感觉，因为它太肤浅了。
That's why it takes repeated observation and conversation for that to emerge.
这就是为什么需要反复观察和对话才能出现的原因。
The reason I keep coming back to the internet is I think it's where most people get their information now.
我不断回到互联网的原因是我认为这是现在大多数人获取信息的地方。
Unless they're listening to this as a podcast, that's where they're going to get this information.
除非他们以播客的形式收听，否则他们将从播客中获取此信息。
I think what you said about the lack of dialogue being really key.
我认为你所说的缺乏对话是非常关键的。
I mean, I think we see this now also at the level of media.
我的意思是，我认为我们现在也在媒体层面上看到了这一点。
We have a very polarized media.
我们的媒体非常两极分化。
This is an independent media channel.
这是一个独立的媒体渠道。
We don't have a political stance, despite what some people might assert.
尽管有些人可能会这么说，但我们没有政治立场。
We don't, right?
我们不这样做，对吧？
It's about science and health information for everyone who is interested.
这是为每个感兴趣的人提供的科学和健康信息。
Zero cost.
零成本。
That's the mission.
这就是使命。
Understood.
明白了。
When we read and see things now about politics, but also about business, about sport, about celebrity, about kids, about culture, all too often the labels of psychology are placed on those.
当我们现在阅读和看到有关政治、商业、体育、名人、儿童、文化的事物时，常常会被贴上心理学的标签。
Kids are depressed.
孩子们很沮丧。
They're not just lonely, they're depressed.
他们不仅感到孤独，而且感到沮丧。
And they may very well be experiencing high levels of clinical diagnosis of depression.
他们很可能正在经历高水平的抑郁症临床诊断。
That could be true.
这可能是真的。
You know, my concern, it's a real concern, which is why I keep bringing this up, is that in doing that, that we both diminish the suffering of those who are really suffering from those pathologies.
你知道，我的担忧，这是一个真正的担忧，这就是为什么我不断提出这个问题，通过这样做，我们都可以减少那些真正患有这些病症的人的痛苦。
And we also perhaps create a little bit of catastrophizing about, you know, feeling low for an afternoon might be a great source of stimulus to go like.
我们也许还会制造一些灾难性的事情，你知道，一个下午的情绪低落可能是刺激的一个很好的来源。
You know, write or think or nap or insight.
你知道，写作或思考或打瞌睡或洞察力。
And, you know, I loathe to think that in people learning terms, that somehow they're getting further away from what they need.
而且，你知道，我讨厌认为人们在学习术语时，不知何故离他们需要的东西越来越远。
No, I agree.
不，我同意。
You know, Louis Pasteur, from whom we got pasteurization, of course, reportedly put over the entrance to his office, tell me not your politics or your religion, tell me only your suffering.
你知道，路易斯·巴斯德，我们从他那里得到了巴氏灭菌，当然，据报道，他把它放在了他办公室的入口处，不要告诉我你的政治或你的宗教信仰，只告诉我你的痛苦。
And I always think about that in the context of therapy because Everybody's a suffering soul because, you know, life is difficult and then you die, so have a nice day, right?
我总是在治疗的背景下思考这一点，因为每个人都是一个受苦的灵魂，因为，你知道，生活很艰难，然后你就会死，所以祝你有美好的一天，对吧？
Life is suffering, and that's not pessimistic.
生活就是苦难，但这并不悲观。
That's just, you know, descriptive.
你知道，这只是描述性的。
The question is, what does that suffering make you do?
问题是，这种痛苦让你做什么？
What does it keep you from doing?
它阻止你做什么？
That's the central question.
这是核心问题。
There is where the person is called into some accountability.
在那里，这个人被要求承担一些责任。
You know, if you're depressed, all right, what's the task that that depression is asking of me?
你知道，如果你感到沮丧，好吧，这种沮丧要求我完成什么任务？
If you're anxious, where's that anxiety coming from?
如果你焦虑，那么焦虑从何而来？
How much of that is archaic?
其中有多少是过时的？
How much of that is inherited from family?
其中有多少是从家族遗传的？
How much of that is unique to your life?
其中有多少是你生活中独一无二的？
And what is the task that is to be addressed there.
那里要解决的任务是什么？
I also wrote a book called Swamplands of the Soul that deals with anxiety, depression, loss, betrayal, etc., etc.
我还写了一本叫做《灵魂沼泽》的书，涉及焦虑、抑郁、失落、背叛等等。
And sooner or later, life is going to take us to swamplands where you find yourself really mired into something.
生活迟早会把我们带到沼泽地，在那里你会发现自己真的陷入了困境。
And one will feel very much victimized in that way, but that's the passive experience.
人们会以这种方式感到非常受害，但这就是被动的经历。
The summons is always, what is the task that this visitation to the swampland is asking of you?
召唤始终是，这次访问沼泽地要求你执行什么任务？
What do you need to address?
您需要解决什么问题？
If you feel that your partner betrayed you and left the marriage, for example, and took your self-esteem with that, all right, well, your task is the recovery of self-worth, because without that, no other choice you make is going to be very good.
例如，如果你觉得你的伴侣背叛了你，离开了婚姻，并夺走了你的自尊，那么，好吧，你的任务就是恢复自我价值，因为如果没有这一点，你做出的任何其他选择都不会很好。
And maybe that's a hard project, but that's nonetheless the work you have to do.
也许这是一个艰难的项目，但这仍然是你必须做的工作。
So always the question, what does this make you do?
所以总是有一个问题，这让你做什么？
What does it keep you from doing?
它阻止你做什么？
And to bring responsibility back to the individual.
并将责任归还给个人。
And of course, some people are willing to accept that responsibility, some are not.
当然，有些人愿意承担这个责任，有些人则不愿意。
And that makes the difference.
这就是不同之处。
I had a colleague many moons ago who said she could tell in the first hour whether the person she was seeing was a big kid or a little kid, because everybody's a recovering child.
许多个月前，我的一位同事说，她可以在第一个小时内分辨出她所见的人是大孩子还是小孩，因为每个人都是正在康复的孩子。
And the big kids could do the work.
大孩子可以做这项工作。
The little kids wanted someone to tell them what to do.
小孩子们希望有人告诉他们该怎么做。
Or tell them that there's an easy fix to this.
或者告诉他们有一个简单的解决办法。
And in the long run, those persons are going to stay stuck pretty much until something else happens in their life perhaps.
从长远来看，这些人可能会一直陷入困境，直到他们的生活中发生其他事情。
Well, to me, it seems that the litmus test is the extent to which somebody is pointing fingers at others.
嗯，对我来说，试金石似乎就是某人对他人指手画脚的程度。
Or directing the work towards themselves, regardless of who was wrong.
或者将工作导向自己，不管谁错了。
Sure.
当然。
Right.
正确的。
One individual, both individual, like regardless, ultimately, I think what you're saying, and forgive me for interrupting, is that if one is asking, what is the task to develop what, to control one's anxiety, to develop stronger sense of self, to...
一个人，两个人，不管怎样，最终，我认为你所说的，请原谅我打断，是，如果一个人问，发展什么的任务是什么，控制一个人的焦虑，发展更强的自我意识，......
To better understand what one really wants and assert that, to set better boundaries so that people's projections are not as permeable to us.
为了更好地理解一个人真正想要什么并断言这一点，设定更好的界限，这样人们的预测就不会被我们所渗透。
Whatever it is, ultimately...
不管怎样，最终...
There's no...
没有...
Business of looking at what others are doing wrong in that.
看看别人在这方面做错了什么。
It's all an introspective and self-directed thing.
这都是一种内省和自我导向的事情。
That's right.
这是正确的。
Well, and you gave good examples of the kind of tasks that rise out of a person's experience.
嗯，你给出了一些很好的例子来说明从一个人的经历中产生的任务类型。
Now, for example, if a person has been subject to serious abuse in childhood, physical or emotional or sexual or whatever, it's affected their entire life.
举例来说，如果一个人在童年时期遭受过严重的虐待，无论是身体上的、情感上的、性上的还是其他方面的虐待，都会影响到他的一生。
Well, what is the task?
嗯，任务是什么？
You know, it's to rest from that experience, a sense of self.
你知道，这是从那种经历中得到休息，一种自我意识。
And that one is still here to live one's journey.
而那个人仍然在这里度过自己的旅程。
That's why I said at the beginning of our conversation, I'm not what happened to me.
这就是为什么我在谈话一开始就说，我不是发生在我身上的人。
I'm what is wanting to be expressed in my life through me.
我就是想要在我的生活中通过我来表达的东西。
And to get a person to that place takes some time and repetition, frankly.
坦率地说，要让一个人到达那个地方需要一些时间和重复。
You know, the two hardest things I ever learned as a therapist, and I still don't like either one of them, is patience.
你知道，作为一名治疗师，我学到的最难的两件事就是耐心，而且我仍然不喜欢其中任何一件。
You have to sit with it over time.
随着时间的推移，你必须忍受它。
You have to sort and sift and sort and sift and hold this over time till something else emerges.
你必须分类、筛选、分类、筛选，并随着时间的推移保留它，直到出现其他东西。
And secondly, powerlessness.
其次，无力感。
I can't.
我不能。
Fix anybody, right?
修复任何人，对吗？
But we can try to promote the attitudes and behaviors that will allow that person to find what is right from within them.
但我们可以尝试促进人们的态度和行为，使他们能够从自己的内心找到正确的东西。
Because something in each of us always knows what is right for us.
因为我们每个人内心总有一些东西知道什么适合我们。
If we pay attention and if we are willing to honor what emerges and have enough courage to address that.
如果我们关注并愿意尊重出现的情况并有足够的勇气解决这个问题。
Then we can live in a different way.
那么我们就可以以不同的方式生活。
And it's very tough in the face of substantial abuse, for example.
例如，面对严重的虐待，这是非常艰难的。
Because it was so intrusive and so devastating.
因为它是如此侵入性和破坏性。
It's cleared out a space in which the self seems to find no room.
它清理出了一个自我似乎找不到空间的空间。
But that's the task then, is the recovery of a sense of self and purpose that's independent of what happened to oneself.
但这就是任务，就是恢复独立于自己所发生的事情的自我意识和目标。
It's almost as if one needs to really understand their own story, but then be able to depart from that story.
这就好像一个人需要真正理解自己的故事，但随后又能够脱离那个故事。
Yeah, that's why I said one has to have a larger story than what happened to you, right?
是的，这就是为什么我说一个人必须有一个比发生在你身上的事情更大的故事，对吧？
One has to have a larger story than the story that one's culture gives you or your family of origin gives you.
一个人必须有一个比一个人的文化给你或你的原生家庭给你的故事更大的故事。
What is that story?
那是什么故事？
That's why I said my instructions and my models were to stay home and stay safe.
这就是为什么我说我的指示和我的模特要呆在家里并保持安全。
Something in me hungered, and I honor my teachers to this day.
我内心有些渴望，直到今天我仍向我的老师们致敬。
I honor a local librarian who showed me any book.
我向一位向我展示任何书籍的当地图书管理员表示敬意。
She recognized this kid's a reader, so she said to me, you don't have to stay in the children's section.
她认出这孩子是读书人，就对我说，你不用呆在儿童区。
You can go anywhere you want in the library, which I thought was like having a lot of candy.
你可以在图书馆里去任何你想去的地方，我觉得这就像有很多糖果一样。
I enjoyed that.
我很享受这样。
And as a child, I devoured the biographies of famous people because I think I was looking for clues about how do you live a larger life.
小时候，我如饥似渴地阅读名人传记，因为我想我是在寻找如何过上更美好生活的线索。
I couldn't have languaged that.
我无法用语言表达出来。
It was just some deep urge within.
这只是内心深处的某种冲动。
How do you live this life in a way that's more satisfying?
您如何以更令人满意的方式度过这一生？
And I was privileged to have some people there, notably teachers and a librarian.
我很荣幸有一些人在那里，特别是老师和图书管理员。
Who gave permission to that and supported that.
谁允许并支持这一点。
And I'm grateful to them.
我很感激他们。
So, you know, I think it probably would have happened anyway, but much later in life.
所以，你知道，我认为这可能无论如何都会发生，但要晚得多。
But I looked back and I realized there was something there that wanted to go, as I said, to see where the airplanes went.
但我回头一看，意识到那里有一些东西想去，正如我所说的，看看飞机去了哪里。
What the ocean looked like, what it meant to live in a foreign country, what it meant to learn a foreign language.
海洋是什么样子，生活在异国意味着什么，学习外语意味着什么。
You know, all of those things were unimaginable to my family.
你知道，所有这些事情对我的家人来说都是难以想象的。
And I, you know, rest their souls.
你知道，我让他们的灵魂得到安息。
Because I grieve the life they were not allowed to live.
因为我对他们不被允许过的生活感到悲伤。
You know, I never forget that.
你知道，我永远不会忘记这一点。
You know, causes me to resolve again to stop and say, all right, now where are you being blocked today by convention or your old fears or your inhibitions or whatever?
你知道，这让我再次下定决心停下来说，好吧，现在你在哪里被惯例或你过去的恐惧或你的抑制或其他什么所阻碍？
Because there's always a summons to show up.
因为总有召唤出现。
In fact, in one of the books, I said my motto, which I think about every morning, is very simple.
事实上，在一本书中，我说过我每天早上都会思考的座右铭非常简单。
Shut up.
住口。
Suit up, show up.
穿好衣服，出现。
Now, I'm speaking to myself when I say this.
现在，当我说这句话时，我是在自言自语。
Shut up means stop whining.
闭嘴意味着停止抱怨。
You know, there are people who don't have food today.
你知道，今天有些人没有食物。
There are people whose children are being killed today.
今天有些人的孩子被杀害。
There are people who don't have a roof.
有些人没有屋顶。
You have tons of things.
你有很多东西。
Shut up.
住口。
Don't whine.
别发牢骚。
Speaking to myself.
自言自语。
Suit up means prepare, do your homework.
穿好衣服意味着做好准备，做好功课。
Don't expect life just to present it to you.
不要指望生活只是将它呈现给你。
You have to go out and work hard at something.
你必须出去努力做某事。
Show up meaning not show off, but just do the best you can.
展示的意思不是炫耀，而是尽力而为。
Step into life, you know, sooner or later life knocks us down.
走进生活，你知道，生活迟早会把我们击倒。
Death is the great democracy, but you're here to live it as best you can.
死亡是伟大的民主，但你在这里要尽你所能地活下去。
By lights that matter within instead of what people around you are saying, you know?
通过内心重要的光芒而不是周围人所说的，你知道吗？
And as simplistic as that slogan is, I know a lot of people have copied it and put it on their refrigerator because it's a reminder of this is your life.
尽管这句口号很简单，但我知道很多人都效仿了它，并将其贴在冰箱上，因为它提醒人们，这就是你的生活。
You're accountable.
你有责任。
What are you going to do about that?
你打算怎么做？
I'm going to let that sink in for everybody.
我会让每个人都明白这一点。
I think shut up, suit up, show up is essential.
我认为闭嘴、穿好衣服、露面是至关重要的。
I love that.
我喜欢那个。
I love Eric's stages of developmental maturation.
我喜欢埃里克的发展成熟阶段。
For those not familiar, Eric's in, I think, another Dane, right?
对于那些不熟悉的人来说，我认为埃里克是另一个丹麦人，对吧？
Is it Dane?
是丹恩吗？
Yeah.
是的。
Psychologist, you know, set about to kind of explain neurobiology without knowing any neurobiology and asserted that there were specific core conflicts that infants and children, young adults and adults go through.
你知道，心理学家在对神经生物学一无所知的情况下就开始解释神经生物学，并断言婴儿和儿童、年轻人和成年人都会经历特定的核心冲突。
And the age ranges are...
而且年龄范围是...
More variable now based on life expectancy and other factors than they were originally.
现在，基于预期寿命和其他因素的变化比原来更大。
But one reason I like Erickson's stages of development so much is that as a developmental neurobiologist first, that's where I started out more or less, It makes perfect sense to me that the brain circuitry would be resolving certain things about interactions with physical objects and relational objects.
但我如此喜欢埃里克森的发展阶段的一个原因是，首先作为一名发展神经生物学家，这或多或少是我的起点。对我来说，大脑回路将解决与物理对象和关系对象交互的某些问题是完全合理的。
And it just makes perfect sense.
这完全有道理。
And what genius it was to superimpose on that some ideas about what infants are doing from zero to one and from three to five, etc.
将婴儿从零到一、三到五等过程中所做的一些想法叠加在上面，真是天才。
Rarely, if ever, do we hear about the maturational stages of adulthood and the core conflicts that we all have to go through, you know, perhaps not exactly from age 45 to 50 or 50 to 55 or 75 to 80 and so forth, but that life as it were, might be a series of trying to make it through specific milestones.
我们很少（如果有的话）听说过成年的成熟阶段和我们所有人都必须经历的核心冲突，你知道，也许不完全是从45岁到50岁或50岁到55岁或75岁到80岁等等，但生活实际上可能是一系列努力通过特定里程碑的过程。
And when we don't make it through a milestone, problems arise.
当我们没有完成一个里程碑时，就会出现问题。
You described the first half of life as one in which we're Kind of foraging, more or less, for most people, unconscious of how our...
你将生命的前半部分描述为，对于大多数人来说，我们或多或少都在觅食，没有意识到我们的……
Parental influences or family influences set about certain patterns that may or may not be healthy for us.
父母的影响或家庭的影响设定了某些模式，这些模式可能对我们健康，也可能不健康。
And then at some point, some event comes.
然后在某个时刻，发生了一些事件。
Oftentimes a painful event, but it could be a joyous event like the birth of a child or something like that.
通常这是一件痛苦的事情，但也可能是一件快乐的事情，比如孩子的出生或类似的事情。
And all of a sudden we get hit square in the face with the work that we need to do.
突然之间，我们需要做的工作就让我们措手不及。
Would you say that the second half of life is one in which we, because of our life experience and because of some awareness, and yet, because also our brain is, yes, still plastic, but it takes more work than when we're kids to modify our brain circuitry, that we have to set about this juggling act of...
你是否会说，在人生的后半段，我们因为我们的生活经历和一些意识，而且因为我们的大脑，是的，仍然是可塑的，但它需要比我们小时候更多的工作来修改我们的大脑电路，所以我们必须开始这种杂耍行为……
Still trying to understand the self while still bringing the self that we have into the world, right?
仍在尝试理解自我，同时仍将我们拥有的自我带入世界，对吧？
We don't really get to pause, go to the shop.
我们真的没有停下来，去商店。
And come out a year later in most cases.
大多数情况下会在一年后出现。
Regardless of whether or not somebody is 10, 15, 20, 50, or 80 years old.
无论某人是 10 岁、15 岁、20 岁、50 岁还是 80 岁。
How do we know what our work is?
我们如何知道我们的工作是什么？
Then?
然后？
How do we best know what to focus on?
我们如何最好地知道应该关注什么？
Because it can be a bit overwhelming to think about tackling all of this.
因为考虑解决所有这些问题可能有点让人不知所措。
Sure, sure.
当然，当然。
Well, let me say, first of all, many years ago, when I was still teaching at a university, I taught a course on life stages.
嗯，我说，首先，很多年前，当我还在大学教书的时候，我讲过人生阶段的课程。
And for one of the papers, I asked the students to imagine two stages ahead of them.
对于其中一篇论文，我要求学生想象他们面前的两个阶段。
So if they were typically 18 to 22, let's say.
假设他们的年龄通常为 18 至 22 岁。
To imagine themselves in their 40s and try to write about their life in their 40s.
想象自己40多岁的样子，并尝试写下自己40多岁的生活。
And the assignment completely failed, although it was made useful for the classroom discussion, because all of them imagined in their 40s.
作业完全失败了，尽管它对课堂讨论很有用，因为他们都想象着40多岁的样子。
They would have this perfect marriage.
他们将会拥有这段完美的婚姻。
Their adolescent children would adore them, and they would be in these satisfying careers, despite everything we'd read, everything we'd talked about as a time of turbulence and disappointment and so forth.
他们的青春期孩子会崇拜他们，他们会从事这些令人满意的职业，尽管我们读过一切，我们谈论过一段动荡和失望的时期等等。
And it was a complete failure.
这是一次彻底的失败。
So it's hard for us to imagine that we too will go through these similar kinds of things, but usually we do.
所以我们很难想象我们也会经历这些类似的事情，但通常我们都会经历。
And some of this is triggered by roles in one's life.
其中一些是由一个人生活中的角色引发的。
A lot of it's determined by our own aging of the body and so forth.
很大程度上是由我们自身身体的衰老等因素决定的。
So, for example, the last stage in Erickson's discussion.
例如，埃里克森讨论的最后阶段。
In so-called old age is the conflict between despair and integrity.
所谓老年，就是绝望与正直之间的冲突。
And I remember reading that when I was young and wondering, what did he really mean by that?
我记得当我年轻的时候读过这篇文章，我想知道他这句话的真正含义是什么？
Now I know that in a very personal way.
现在我以一种非常个人的方式知道了这一点。
Despair is one sees friends die.
绝望是看到朋友死去。
One sees avenues in your life closed that you can't possibly do that.
人们会发现你生活中的途径已经关闭，你不可能做到这一点。
You're confronted with the unlived life or the mistakes you made.
你面临着未经历过的生活或你所犯的错误。
You're dealing with loss of functions of the body.
您正在面临身体功能丧失的问题。
You're facing your mortality and so forth and so on.
你面临着死亡等等。
And how could you not despair in the face of that?
面对这样的情况，你怎能不绝望呢？
Well, at the same time, there's, again, the summons to accountability.
嗯，与此同时，再次有人呼吁追究责任。
What now is life asking of you?
现在生活对你有什么要求？
How are you to show up today in this changed environment, you see?
你知道今天在这个变化的环境中你会表现得如何吗？
So, you know, the stages of life, you know, and Shakespeare wrote about the seven stages of life.
所以，你知道，人生的阶段，你知道，莎士比亚写了人生的七个阶段。
I think Erickson had eight stages.
我认为埃里克森有八个阶段。
And again, underneath this, these things happen, right?
再一次，在这之下，这些事情发生了，对吗？
And often one doesn't realize it.
而人们常常没有意识到这一点。
One reads about it somehow.
人们以某种方式读到了它。
It's sort of like when you're young, yes, I understand I'm mortal, but that happens to people out there.
这有点像你年轻的时候，是的，我知道我是凡人，但这发生在外面的人身上。
It's not part of my DNA, you see.
你看，这不是我 DNA 的一部分。
Well, it is, and sooner or later, life is going to unfold, unless it's cut off in some way, you know.
嗯，确实如此，生活迟早会展开，除非它以某种方式被切断，你知道。
And I remember reading when I was in graduate school a saying in ancient Greece that I saw in several different environments.
我记得在读研究生时读到过一句古希腊的谚语，我在几种不同的环境中看到过。
And it said, best of all is not to have been born.
它说，最好的事情是没有出生。
Second best is to have died young.
其次最好的是英年早逝。
And I thought, gee, how awful that is, right?
我想，天啊，那太可怕了，对吧？
Well, I think I've understood why they were saying that.
嗯，我想我已经明白他们为什么这么说了。
If you're born into the veil of tears, so to speak.
可以这么说，如果你出生在泪水的面纱中。
You're born into suffering, you're born into mortality, you're born into loss, and so forth.
你生来就受苦，你生来必死，你生来就失去，等等。
If you're going to live, you're going to go through some of those.
如果你要活下去，你就会经历其中的一些事情。
If you live long enough, you'll go through the loss of people you love and care about.
如果你活得足够长，你就会经历失去你所爱和关心的人的痛苦。
You may outlive your children, as I've had an experience, and sooner or later, you know, life will take you to these difficult places.
你可能比你的孩子活得更久，正如我有过的经历，你知道，生活迟早会把你带到这些困难的地方。
And what are you going to do then?
然后你要做什么？
Who are you then, and how are you going to address that?
那么你是谁，你将如何解决这个问题？
And that's where the issue of integrity came in, and I think Erickson was right on that.
这就是诚信问题出现的地方，我认为埃里克森在这一点上是正确的。
To be a person of integrity means to integrate something, to pull back one's stuff and sense this is who I am and this is where I stand vis-à-vis this dilemma.
成为一个正直的人意味着整合一些东西，收回自己的东西，并感觉到这就是我，这就是我面对这个困境时所处的位置。
So I said the practical question is, how now am I to live my life in the face of this situation?
所以我说实际的问题是，面对这种情况我该如何生活？
That's a task that comes to each of us at some place in our life, and that never goes away.
这是我们每个人在生活中的某个阶段都会面临的一项任务，而且永远不会消失。
Let's talk about death.
我们来谈谈死亡吧。
Okay.
好的。
I've often wondered whether or not the human brain's ability to adjust the aperture of our time perception is an adaptive thing because were we to not be able to do that we would probably always focus on the fact that at some point we are going to die.
我经常想知道人类大脑调整时间感知孔径的能力是否是一种适应性，因为如果我们无法做到这一点，我们可能会一直关注这样一个事实：在某个时刻我们会死亡。
This to me...
这对我来说...
Is analogous to a situation in space, not outer space, but let's just frame it this way.
类似于太空中的情况，而不是外太空，但让我们这样构建它。
We can orient in time, and in particular under conditions of stress, that our time horizon tends to shrink.
我们可以及时定位，特别是在压力条件下，我们的时间范围往往会缩小。
We have to solve for now.
我们现在必须解决。
We get the troubling text message.
我们收到了令人不安的短信。
Somebody we care about is in trouble.
我们关心的人有麻烦了。
We need to solve for now.
我们现在需要解决。
So the time horizon has shrunk.
所以时间范围已经缩小了。
We're on vacation.
我们正在度假。
We're relaxed.
我们很放松。
Everything's taken care of.
一切都处理好了。
We're fed.
我们吃饱了。
We're rested.
我们休息了。
Our loved ones are safe.
我们的亲人很安全。
We're safe.
我们很安全。
And all of a sudden we can daydream.
突然之间我们就可以做白日梦了。
And so in the space domain, the brain can learn to navigate a small environment like this room.
因此，在空间领域，大脑可以学习在像这个房间这样的小环境中导航。
And in conversation, we're present to this room.
在谈话中，我们出现在这个房间里。
But we can also imagine that we're just two people among billions of other people floating on a planet in the galaxies, and we can expand our notion of space, the space time dimensionality of perception of the human brain is vast.
但我们也可以想象，我们只是漂浮在银河系行星上的数十亿人中的两个人，我们可以扩展我们的空间概念，人脑感知的时空维度是巨大的。
And it can be consciously controlled or unconsciously controlled.
并且可以有意识地控制，也可以无意识地控制。
So that's great.
那太好了。
It allows us to be functional in a number of different space-time dimensions.
它使我们能够在许多不同的时空维度中发挥作用。
It also can allow us to avoid the reality, which is that at some point, our time here is finite.
它还可以让我们逃避现实，即在某些时候，我们在这里的时间是有限的。
And the example you gave earlier of somebody who was just trying to pile up as much money to get to the end was an example, I think, of a shortened time horizon.
你之前举的例子，有人只是想积累尽可能多的钱来达到目的，我认为，这是一个缩短时间范围的例子。
Other compulsive behaviors, maybe even addictive behaviors.
其他强迫行为，甚至可能是成瘾行为。
I would argue, have some component often of being a way to avoid the reality of death.
我认为，通常有一些成分是避免死亡现实的一种方式。
It's a way of packing away the fear of death because if you can create these reward-based, which eventually become punishment-based in the case of addiction, milestones and algorithms that the brain is running, solve for this now, solve for this now, you stave off the reality, which is death is coming.
这是一种消除对死亡的恐惧的方法，因为如果你能创造出这些基于奖励的、最终在成瘾的情况下变成基于惩罚的、大脑正在运行的里程碑和算法，现在就解决这个问题，现在就解决这个问题，你就可以避开死亡即将到来的现实。
Are we as humans, meaning is it our work, if we wish to be the most conscious, healthy version of ourselves, to understand and acknowledge our sense of mortality?
作为人类，如果我们希望成为最有意识、最健康的自己，理解并承认我们的死亡感，这就是我们的工作吗？
I think of what I consider the great commencement speech of Steve Jobs at Stanford in 2015, where he talks about the knowledge of one's mortality is actually, in his words, more or less, one of the most important features of our self-recognition as humans.
我想起了 2015 年史蒂夫·乔布斯 (Steve Jobs) 在斯坦福大学的伟大毕业典礼演讲，他在演讲中谈到，用他的话来说，对死亡的认识实际上或多或少是我们作为人类自我认知的最重要特征之一。
So that's the question.
这就是问题所在。
And then the challenge becomes how often to think about it.
然后挑战就变成了多久思考一次。
You don't want to think about too much because it can be paralyzing.
你不想考虑太多，因为它可能会让人瘫痪。
It can lead...
它可以导致...
I mean, if we just think that we're...
我的意思是，如果我们认为我们...
If we acknowledge that we are indeed, it's a fact, just two people among billions floating around on a planet, then nothing really matters, right?
如果我们承认我们确实是一个事实，只是漂浮在一个星球上的数十亿人中的两个人，那么什么都不重要了，对吧？
One can get the sense that our impact is zero.
人们可以感觉到我们的影响力为零。
But if we over...
但如果我们超过...
Emphasize our impact, thinking that everything we do, like the movement of this book is going to impact molecules that then will impact.
强调我们的影响，认为我们所做的一切，比如这本书的运动，都会影响分子，然后分子也会产生影响。
You'd go crazy.
你会发疯的。
You become dysfunctional in a real way.
你真的变得功能失调了。
So those are the two extremes.
所以这是两个极端。
And I'll just kind of set that about and let for reflection, but in terms of our...
我只是简单地设置一下并进行反思，但就我们的......
Our sense of our own mortality and what that means about our sense of life.
我们对自己的死亡感以及这对我们的生命感意味着什么。
It seems like a pretty big topic.
这似乎是一个相当大的话题。
And I know you're writing a book about this, and I'm very excited to read it when it comes out.
我知道你正在写一本关于这个问题的书，当它出版时我很高兴能读到它。
Well, I've actually written about it before.
嗯，其实我之前已经写过相关内容了。
The paradox here is it's mortality that makes this life meaningful.
这里的悖论是，死亡使这一生变得有意义。
If we were immortal, We would simply do this for a century, then we'd get bored, then we'd do something else for a century, and then get bored, and then something else for a century.
如果我们是不朽的，我们会简单地做这个一个世纪，然后我们会感到无聊，然后我们会做其他事情一个世纪，然后感到无聊，然后做其他事情一个世纪。
Life is short.
生命是短暂的。
As Jung said, that short pause between two great mysteries.
正如荣格所说，两个伟大谜团之间的短暂停顿。
From whence we come, we know not.
我们从哪里来，我们不知道。
Whither we go, we don't know.
我们要去哪里，我们不知道。
The problem is the identification of the ego.
问题在于自我的认同。
One of the things that's occurred is in many traditional cultures, that ego was subsumed, as I said, into a larger story.
正如我所说，在许多传统文化中发生的事情之一是，自我被纳入一个更大的故事中。
Take away that story and what's going to fill that space?
去掉这个故事，用什么来填补这个空间呢？
The ego, you know, my own importance, my self-perpetuation, the fact that people have frozen their brains and wanting to be revived in some future, you know, era.
自我，你知道，我自己的重要性，我的自我延续，事实上人们已经冻结了他们的大脑并希望在未来的某个时代复活。
Is a good example of denial, it seems to me.
在我看来，这是否认的一个很好的例子。
Life means something because your choices are finite.
生命有意义，因为你的选择是有限的。
You don't live here forever.
你不会永远住在这里。
Now, the more you identify with the ego, the more threatened you're going to be by that.
现在，你越认同自我，你受到的威胁就越大。
Then you begin to realize, all right, the center of my personality is not the ego.
然后你开始意识到，好吧，我人格的中心不是自我。
There are several things to say about this, none of which is proof of anything, simply observations.
关于这一点有很多话要说，但这些都不是任何证据，只是观察。
And Jung pointed this out in an essay once called The Soul in Death.
荣格在一篇名为《死亡中的灵魂》的文章中指出了这一点。
The psyche doesn't seem to recognize its own termination.
心灵似乎并没有意识到自己的终结。
People who are overtly dying and they know they're dying.
那些公开地死去的人，他们知道自己快要死了。
And one of my patients right now is a glioblastoma client who's not going to be here in a few months.
我现在的一位患者是一位胶质母细胞瘤患者，他几个月后就不会来了。
Who is acutely aware of mortality.
谁对死亡有敏锐的认识。
But the dreams have to do with journeys and crossings and things of that sort.
但梦想与旅行、穿越之类的事情有关。
In other words, as if...
换句话说，就好像...
The human psyche is not bound by time and space per se, but the ego is.
人类的心灵本身不受时间和空间的限制，但自我却受限制。
So, if there's another life, it's another life.
所以，如果还有另一种生活，那就是另一种生活。
You know, if there's a life after this, it's another life.
你知道，如果此后还有一种生活，那就是另一种生活。
This is the only one we know about for sure.
这是我们唯一确定的。
And I would say in terms of the fear of death, which most people don't want to talk about, but sooner or later it comes up in therapy, no matter what stage of life one is involved in.
我想说的是对死亡的恐惧，大多数人不想谈论它，但它迟早会出现在治疗中，无论一个人处于人生的哪个阶段。
You know, is...
你知道，是...
Either There is another life of some kind which is larger than my imagination can conjure up.
要么存在另一种生命，它比我的想象要大得多。
Or there's an annihilation of this ego identity.
或者这种自我身份被消灭了。
Either case, my theories about it and my anxieties about it are rendered moot.
无论哪种情况，我对它的理论和我对它的焦虑都变得毫无意义。
So again, the more I identify with the ego consciousness, the more I'm tied into its perpetuation.
再说一次，我越认同自我意识，我就越被它的永存所束缚。
The less I'm identified with that, the less it matters.
我越不认同这一点，它就越不重要。
I would say to you at this moment, and I'm trying to be as honest as I can about it, The chief thing I worry about as I approach my mortality is I don't want my wife to be alone.
此时此刻，我想尽可能诚实地对你说，当我临近死亡时，我最担心的事情是我不想让我的妻子独自一人。
I care for her and I know there are areas where she needs my help.
我关心她，我知道她在某些方面需要我的帮助。
And I want to be here for her as long as I can.
我想尽可能长时间地陪伴在她身边。
And my existence a little over a year ago was sort of problematic coming out of all those surgeries.
一年多前，由于所有这些手术，我的存在有点问题。
So that's one reason we moved to a retirement community, so there'd be some structure there for her.
这就是我们搬到退休社区的原因之一，所以那里会有一些适合她的结构。
Secondly, I don't want to suffer, obviously, but that's outside of my control.
其次，显然我不想受苦，但这超出了我的控制范围。
And thirdly, I'm still curious as a human being.
第三，作为一个人，我仍然很好奇。
There's so much to learn.
有很多东西要学。
And when we're talking about the Internet and its perils, it's also an enormous learning tool.
当我们谈论互联网及其危险时，它也是一个巨大的学习工具。
I love to Google up things and find out about things that used to be so difficult to learn about.
我喜欢用谷歌搜索一些东西，找出以前很难了解的东西。
So I'm still heavily invested in the adventure of life, but I'm less and less.
所以我仍然大量投入到生活的冒险中，但我越来越少了。
Attached to it in some peculiar way.
以某种特殊的方式附着在它上面。
It's the ego attachment, you know.
你知道，这是自我执着。
The German word Gelassenheit is the word for serenity.
德语中的“Gelassenheit”一词是“宁静”的意思。
It's the condition of having let go.
这是已经放手的条件。
And the only solution, so to speak, for our fear of mortality is accepting it paradoxically.
可以说，解决我们对死亡的恐惧的唯一解决办法就是矛盾地接受它。
Of letting go of the fantasy of the sovereignty of the ego, that it's immune somehow to the natural order of things, the natural progression of things.
放弃自我主权的幻想，即它在某种程度上不受事物的自然秩序、事物的自然进程的影响。
Now, I'm not saying that makes me wholly unafraid of death.
现在，我并不是说这让我完全不害怕死亡。
That would be delusional and it's in another way.
那将是妄想，而且是另一种方式。
But I can say that I'm not defined by it in any way.
但我可以说我并没有以任何方式被它定义。
And I think you're right.
我认为你是对的。
What it usually produces is either depression and torpor of some kind or frenetic activity.
它通常产生的要么是某种抑郁和麻木，要么是疯狂的活动。
So, the inability of a person to relativize the ego in the context of the idea of the soul.
因此，一个人无法在灵魂观念的背景下相对化自我。
And does that soul perpetuate?
那灵魂会永存吗？
I don't know.
我不知道。
If I knew, I would tell you.
如果我知道，我会告诉你的。
I wouldn't want to keep that a secret.
我不想保守秘密。
I don't know.
我不知道。
It's a mystery.
这是一个谜。
Maybe I'll be conscious enough to experience it.
也许我会有足够的意识来体验它。
Maybe I'll just be annihilated.
也许我就会被消灭。
Either way, as I said, my present speculations are just that, speculations and ultimately irrelevant.
不管怎样，正如我所说，我目前的猜测只是猜测，最终是无关紧要的。
And again, the thing we have to recognize, it's mortality that makes this life mean something.
再说一遍，我们必须认识到，正是死亡使这一生变得有意义。
Because your choices matter.
因为你的选择很重要。
You're here a short time.
你来的时间很短。
What are you going to do with that precious gift you call your life?
你打算如何处理你称之为生命的珍贵礼物？
What are you going to do with it?
你打算用它做什么？
I can't think of a more appropriate place to end.
我想不出更合适的结束地点。
And yet I have still so many more questions.
但我还有很多问题。
But I think because of today's conversation, I realized that those questions are questions to ask of self.
但我想，通过今天的谈话，我意识到这些问题是要问自己的。
As I think everyone listening and watching this surely is stimulated to ask many important questions of self.
我认为每个聆听和观看此内容的人肯定会受到刺激，提出许多重要的自我问题。
I must say I'm.
我必须说我是。
Both a bit awestruck, frankly, because I, you know, again, I'm familiar with your teachings and work in the form of books.
坦率地说，两人都有点敬畏，因为我，你知道，我很熟悉你的教导和书籍形式的工作。
And it was a great wish of mine in my life journey to sit down with you face to face and have a conversation.
而能与您面对面坐下来交谈，也是我人生旅途中的一个很大的愿望。
So that's why I'm speaking more slowly today than I normally do.
这就是为什么我今天讲话比平常慢。
My audience perhaps will notice that.
我的听众也许会注意到这一点。
And if they send some emotion, it's that I feel like there's just so much richness here to take in for myself and for everyone listening to take in.
如果他们传达了一些情感，那就是我觉得这里有如此多的丰富性可供我自己和每个听众吸收。
I'm certainly going to listen to this again and take careful notes.
我当然会再听一遍并仔细做笔记。
And we likely will put some notes and some highlights.
我们可能会添加一些注释和一些亮点。
We always timestamp everything so that people can navigate back.
我们总是为所有内容添加时间戳，以便人们可以向后导航。
But I think there's just so many essential prompts of the self, of the soul that people are going to be motivated to take.
但我认为，有很多来自自我、灵魂的基本提示，人们会被激励去接受。
As a consequence of hearing your words today.
今天听到你的话的结果。
So I just really want to say thank you so much for the work that you've done and that you're doing and continuing to do and for taking the time to share this information with us because it really is the...
所以我真的想说非常感谢您所做的工作以及您正在做和继续做的工作以及花时间与我们分享这些信息，因为这确实是......
The guts, like the core stuff of being a human being.
胆量，就像是一个人的核心物质。
So thank you so much.
非常感谢。
Thank you, Andrew.
谢谢你，安德鲁。
May I just add as a footnote here, there's a wonderful letter of the...
我可以在这里添加一个脚注吗，有一封很棒的信......
Poet Rilke to a young man in which he said, You want the answers.
诗人里尔克对一个年轻人说，你想要答案。
The key is to find the right questions and live the questions.
关键是要找到正确的问题并活出问题。
You're not yet ready to live the answers, but you ask the right questions in time if you live them honestly, with as much integrity as you can manage.
你还没有准备好接受这些答案，但如果你诚实地、尽你所能地诚实地接受这些问题，你就及时提出了正确的问题。
Someday you'll live your way into their answers for you.
总有一天，你会按照自己的方式生活，得到他们为你提供的答案。
And that's what I would say.
这就是我要说的。
Ask large questions.
提出大问题。
As children we did.
当我们还是孩子的时候，我们就这么做了。
What was this about?
这是关于什么的？
Why am I here?
我为什么在这里？
What's the story?
这是什么故事？
What's going on here?
这是怎么回事？
We get so inured to those questions by our adaptive necessities.
由于我们的适应需要，我们已经习惯了这些问题。
And we have to come back to those questions.
我们必须回到这些问题。
I'm still asking those questions.
我还在问这些问题。
I do it consciously now.
我现在有意识地这样做。
Ask large questions, you'll live a large and interesting journey.
提出大问题，你将经历一次伟大而有趣的旅程。
Ask small questions and it gets diminished somehow.
提出一些小问题，它就会以某种方式减少。
Another.
其他。
The thing I say to a lot of patients, when you reach a decisive point in your life, we have to make a decision one way or the other.
我对很多患者说的是，当你到达人生的决定性时刻时，我们必须做出这样或那样的决定。
Ask, does this path enlarge me?
请问，这条路让我变大了吗？
Psycho-spiritually, or does it diminish me?
精神上，还是它削弱了我？
And you usually know the answer to that.
你通常知道答案。
If you choose the larger path, you're going to grow and develop, but it's going to take something out of you, but it'll give something to you.
如果你选择更大的道路，你就会成长和发展，但它会从你身上夺走一些东西，但也会给你一些东西。
If you don't, your life gets narrower and narrower and narrower.
如果你不这样做，你的生活就会变得越来越窄。
And something inside of you knows the difference.
你内心的某些东西知道其中的区别。
Sooner or later, the psyche is going to show up with its point of view and the more we fled from that kind of question, that kind of conversation, the more pathology is going to erupt when we've avoided the big question.
迟早，心灵会以它的观点显现出来，而我们越是逃避那种问题、那种对话，当我们回避这个大问题时，病态就越会爆发。
So thank you for asking big questions, and thank you for inviting me to be part of this conversation today.
感谢您提出重大问题，也感谢您邀请我参加今天的对话。
It's been a privilege and a pleasure.
这是一种荣幸和荣幸。
Thank you so much.
太感谢了。
Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. James Hollis.
感谢您参加今天与詹姆斯·霍利斯博士的讨论。
I hope you found it to be as insightful and practical as I did.
我希望您能像我一样发现它富有洞察力和实用性。
If you're learning from and are enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel.
如果您正在学习并喜欢这个播客，请订阅我们的 YouTube 频道。
That's a terrific zero cost way to support us.
这是支持我们的绝佳零成本方式。
In addition, please subscribe to the podcast on both Spotify and Apple.
此外，请在 Spotify 和 Apple 上订阅该播客。
And on both Spotify and Apple, you can leave us up to a five-star review.
在 Spotify 和 Apple 上，您都可以给我们五星级的评价。
Please also check out the sponsors at the beginning and throughout today's episode.
还请在今天的节目开始和整个节目中查看赞助商。
That's the best way to support this podcast.
这是支持这个播客的最佳方式。
If you have questions for me or comments about the podcast or topics or guests that you'd like me to consider for the Huberman Lab Podcast, please put those in the comment section on YouTube.
如果您对我有疑问，或者对播客、主题或嘉宾有意见，希望我在 Huberman 实验室播客中考虑，请将这些意见放在 YouTube 的评论部分。
I do read all the comments.
我确实阅读了所有评论。
If you're not already following me on Social Media, I am Huberman Lab on all Social Media platforms.
如果您还没有在社交媒体上关注我，我是所有社交媒体平台上的 Huberman Lab。
So that's Instagram, X, LinkedIn, Facebook, and Threads.
这就是 Instagram、X、LinkedIn、Facebook 和 Threads。
And on all of those platforms, I discuss science and science-related tools, some of which overlaps with the content of the Huberman Lab Podcast, but much of which is distinct from the content covered on the Huberman Lab Podcast.
在所有这些平台上，我讨论了科学和与科学相关的工具，其中一些与胡伯曼实验室播客的内容重叠，但其中大部分与胡伯曼实验室播客涵盖的内容不同。
So again, it's Huberman Lab on all Social Media channels.
再说一遍，所有社交媒体渠道上都是 Huberman Lab。
If you haven't already subscribed to our Neural Network Newsletter, our Neural Network Newsletter is a zero-cost monthly newsletter.
如果您还没有订阅我们的神经网络新闻通讯，我们的神经网络新闻通讯是零成本的每月新闻通讯。
That includes podcast summaries, as well as protocols in the form of one to three page PDFs that cover everything from neuroplasticity and learning or how to improve your sleep, as well as protocols on growth mindset and on and on.
其中包括播客摘要，以及一到三页 PDF 形式的协议，涵盖从神经可塑性和学习或如何改善睡眠等各个方面，以及关于成长心态等的协议。
Again, all available, zero cost.
再次强调，一切可用，零成本。
You simply go to hubermanlab.com, go to the menu tab, scroll down to newsletter and enter your email.
您只需访问 hubermanlab.com，转到菜单选项卡，向下滚动到时事通讯并输入您的电子邮件即可。
And I should mention that we do not share your email with anybody.
我应该指出的是，我们不会与任何人分享您的电子邮件。
Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. James Hollis.
再次感谢您参加今天与詹姆斯·霍利斯博士的讨论。
And last, but certainly not least.
最后但同样重要的一点是。
Thank you for your interest in science.
感谢您对科学的兴趣。
Thank you.
谢谢。