Dr. Jack Feldman: Breathing for Mental & Physical Health & Performance
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Welcome to The Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.
欢迎来到胡伯曼实验室播客，我们在这里讨论科学和基于科学的日常生活工具。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm Andrew Huberman and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.
我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。
Today my guest is Dr. Jack Feldman.
今天我的客人是杰克·费尔德曼博士。
Dr. Jack Feldman is a distinguished professor of neurobiology at the University of California, Los Angeles.
杰克·费尔德曼博士是加州大学洛杉矶分校的杰出神经生物学教授。
He is known for his pioneering work on the neuroscience of breathing.
他以其在呼吸神经科学方面的开创性工作而闻名。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We are all familiar with breathing and how essential breathing is to life.
我们都熟悉呼吸以及呼吸对生命的重要性。
We require oxygen, and it is only by breathing that we can bring oxygen to all the cells of our brain and body.
我们需要氧气，只有通过呼吸才能将氧气输送到大脑和身体的所有细胞。
However, as the work from Dr. Feldman and colleagues tells us, breathing is also fundamental to organ health and function at an enormous number of other levels.
然而，正如费尔德曼博士及其同事的研究告诉我们的那样，呼吸对于许多其他层面的器官健康和功能也至关重要。
In fact, how we breathe, including how often we breathe, the depth of our breathing and the ratio of inhales to exhales actually predicts how focused we are, how easily we get into sleep, how easily we can exit from sleep.
事实上，我们的呼吸方式，包括呼吸的频率、呼吸的深度和吸气与呼气的比例，实际上可以预测我们的注意力集中程度、入睡难易程度和退出睡眠难易程度。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Dr. Feldman gets credit for the discovery of the two major brain centers that control the different patterns of breathing.
费尔德曼博士因发现控制不同呼吸模式的两个主要大脑中心而受到赞誉。
Today, you'll learn about those brain centers and the patterns of breathing they control and how those different patterns of breathing influence all aspects of your mental and physical life.
今天，您将了解这些大脑中心和它们控制的呼吸模式，以及这些不同的呼吸模式如何影响您精神和身体生活的各个方面。
What's especially wonderful about Dr. Feldman and his work is that it not only points to the critical role of respiration in disease, in health, and in daily life, but he's also a practitioner.
费尔德曼博士及其工作的特别之处在于，它不仅指出了呼吸在疾病、健康和日常生活中的关键作用，而且他还是一名实践者。
He understands how to leverage particular aspects of the breathing process in order to bias the brain to be in particular states that can benefit us all.
他了解如何利用呼吸过程的特定方面来使大脑偏向于对我们所有人都有好处的特定状态。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Whether or not you are a person who already practices breathwork, or whether or not you're somebody who simply breathes to stay alive, by the end of today's discussion, you are going to understand a tremendous amount about how the breathing system works and how you can leverage that breathing system toward particular goals in your life.
无论您是否已经练习过呼吸，或者是否只是通过呼吸来维持生命，在今天的讨论结束时，您都将深入了解呼吸系统的工作原理以及如何利用呼吸系统实现生活中的特定目标。
Dr. Feldman shares with us his own particular breathing protocols that he uses, and he suggests different avenues for exploring respiration in ways that can allow you, for instance, to be more focused for work, to disengage from work in high stress endeavors, to calm down quickly.
费尔德曼博士与我们分享了他自己使用的特殊呼吸方案，并提出了探索呼吸的不同途径，例如，可以让您更加专注于工作，从高压力的工作中解脱出来，快速平静下来。
And indeed he explains not only how to do that, but all the underlying science in ways that will allow you to customize your own protocols for your needs.
事实上，他不仅解释了如何做到这一点，还解释了所有基础科学，使您能够根据自己的需求定制自己的协议。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
All the guests that we bring on the Huberman Lab podcast are considered at the very top of their fields.
我们在胡伯曼实验室播客上带来的所有嘉宾都被认为是各自领域的顶尖人物。
Today's guest, Dr. Feldman, is not only at the top of his field, he founded the field.
今天的嘉宾费尔德曼博士不仅是该领域的顶尖人物，而且是该领域的创始人。
Prior to his coming into neuroscience from the field of physics, there really wasn't much information about how the brain controls breathing.
在他从物理学领域进入神经科学之前，关于大脑如何控制呼吸的信息确实不多。
There was a little bit of information, but we can really credit Dr. Feldman and his laboratory for identifying the particular brain areas that control different patterns of breathing and how that information can be leveraged towards health, high performance and for combating disease.
虽然只有一点信息，但我们确实可以信任费尔德曼博士和他的实验室，他们确定了控制不同呼吸模式的特定大脑区域，以及如何利用这些信息来促进健康、高性能和对抗疾病。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So today's conversation, you're going to learn a tremendous amount from the top researcher in this field.
因此，今天的对话中，您将从该领域的顶尖研究人员那里学到很多东西。
It's a really wonderful and special opportunity to be able to share his knowledge with you, and I know that you're not only going to enjoy it, but you are going to learn a tremendous amount.
能够与您分享他的知识真是一个美妙而特殊的机会，我知道您不仅会喜欢它，而且会学到很多东西。
Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.
在开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。
It is however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero-cost-to-consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public.
然而，我的愿望和努力的一部分是将有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本消费者信息带给公众。
In keeping with that theme, I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast.
为了与这个主题保持一致，我要感谢今天播客的赞助商。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
One quick mention before we dive into the conversation with Dr. Feldman.
在我们深入与费尔德曼博士的对话之前，先简单提一下。
During today's episode, we discuss a lot of breathwork practices, and by the end of the episode, all those will be accessible to you.
在今天的节目中，我们讨论了很多呼吸练习，到本集结束时，所有这些都将可供您使用。
However, I'm aware that there are a number of people out there that want to go even further into the science and practical tools of breathwork, and for that reason I want to mention a resource to you.
然而，我知道有很多人想要进一步了解呼吸的科学和实用工具，因此我想向您提及一个资源。
There is a cost associated with this resource, but it's a terrific platform for learning about breathwork practices and for building a number of different routines that you can do or that you could teach.
该资源需要一定的成本，但它是一个很棒的平台，可以帮助您学习呼吸练习，并构建许多您可以执行或可以教授的不同例程。
It's called Our Breathwork Collective.
它的名字叫“我们的呼吸集体”。
I'm not associated with the Breathwork Collective, but Dr. Feldman is an advisor to the group, and they offer daily live guided breathing sessions and an on-demand library that you can practice anytime, free workshops on breathwork.
我与呼吸集体没有关系，但费尔德曼博士是该团体的顾问，他们提供每日现场指导呼吸课程和一个您可以随时练习的点播图书馆，以及免费的呼吸工作研讨会。
And these are really developed by experts in the field, including Dr. Feldman.
这些确实是由包括费尔德曼博士在内的该领域专家开发的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So as I mentioned, I'm not on their advisory board, but I do know them and their work, and it is of the utmost quality.
正如我所提到的，我不是他们的顾问委员会成员，但我确实了解他们和他们的工作，而且它们的质量很高。
So anyone wanting to learn or teach breathwork could really benefit from this course, I believe.
因此，我相信任何想要学习或教授呼吸法的人都可以从这门课程中真正受益。
If you'd like to learn more, you can click on the link in the show notes or visit ourbreathcollective.com/huberman and use the code Huberman at checkout.
如果您想了解更多信息，可以点击演出备注中的链接或访问 ourbreathcollective.com/huberman 并在结帐时使用代码 Huberman。
And if you do that, they'll offer you $10 off the first month.
如果你这样做，他们会在第一个月为你提供 10 美元的折扣。
Again, it's ourbreathcollective.com/huberman to access the Our Breath Collective.
再次强调，可以通过 ourbreathcollective.com/huberman 访问 Our Breath Collective。
And now for my conversation with Dr. Jack Feldman.
现在是我与杰克·费尔德曼博士的对话。
Thanks for joining me today.
感谢您今天加入我。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
It's a pleasure to be here, Andrew.
很高兴来到这里，安德鲁。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, it's been a long time coming.
是啊，已经等了很长时间了。
You're my go-to source for all things respiration.
你是我所有呼吸问题的首选来源。
I mean I breathe on my own, but when I want to understand how I breathe and how the brain and breathing interact, you're the person I call.
我的意思是我自己呼吸，但是当我想了解我如何呼吸以及大脑和呼吸如何相互作用时，我就会打电话给你。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
Well, I'll do my best.
嗯，我会尽力的。
As you know, there's a lot that we don't understand, which still keeps me employed and engaged, but we do know a lot.
如你所知，有很多东西我们不理解，这仍然让我有工作和投入，但我们确实知道很多。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Why don't we start off by just talking about what's involved in generating breath, and if you would, could you comment on some of the mechanisms for rhythmic breathing versus nonrhythmic breathing?
为什么我们不首先讨论产生呼吸的相关因素，如果愿意的话，您能否评论一下节律性呼吸与非节律性呼吸的一些机制？
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
Okay, so on the mechanical side, which is obvious to everyone, we want to have airflow in, inhale, and we need to have airflow out.
好的，所以在机械方面，这对每个人来说都是显而易见的，我们想要气流进入，吸气，并且我们需要气流出去。
And the reason we need to do this is because for body metabolism, we need oxygen, and when oxygen is utilized through the aerobic metabolic process, we produce carbon dioxide.
我们需要这样做的原因是，为了身体的新陈代谢，我们需要氧气，而当氧气通过有氧代谢过程被利用时，我们会产生二氧化碳。
And so we have to get rid of the carbon dioxide that we produce, in particular because the carbon dioxide affects the acid-base balance of the blood, the pH, and all living cells are very sensitive to what the pH value is.
因此，我们必须消除产生的二氧化碳，特别是因为二氧化碳会影响血液的酸碱平衡、pH 值，而所有活细胞对 pH 值都非常敏感。
So your body is very interested in regulating that pH.
所以您的身体对调节 pH 值非常感兴趣。
So we have to have enough oxygen for our normal metabolism, and we have to get rid of the CO2 that we produce.
所以我们必须有足够的氧气来维持正常的新陈代谢，并且我们必须消除我们产生的二氧化碳。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
So how do we generate this airflow?
那么我们如何产生这种气流呢？
Well, the air comes into the lungs.
嗯，空气进入肺部。
We have to expand the lungs, and as the lungs expand, basically it's like a balloon that you would pull apart.
我们必须扩张肺部，当肺部扩张时，基本上它就像一个你可以拉开的气球。
The pressure inside that balloon drops and air will flow into the balloon.
气球内部的压力下降，空气将流入气球。
So we put pressure on the lung to pull it apart.
所以我们对肺部施加压力，将其拉开。
That lowers the pressure in the air sacks called alveoli, and air will flow in because pressure outside the body is higher than pressure inside the body.
这会降低称为肺泡的气囊中的压力，并且空气会流入，因为体外的压力高于体内的压力。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
When you're doing this expansion, when you're inhaling, what produces that?
当你进行这种扩张时，当你吸气时，是什么产生了它？
Well, the principle muscle is the diaphragm, which is sitting inside the body just below the lung.
嗯，主要的肌肉是横膈膜，它位于体内肺部下方。
And when you want to inhale, you basically contract the diaphragm, and it pulls it down and as it pulls it down, it's inserting pressure forces on the lung.
当你想要吸气时，你基本上会收缩隔膜，并将其向下拉，当它向下拉时，它会在肺部施加压力。
The lung wants to expand.
肺部想要扩张。
At the same time, the ribcage is going to rotate up and out and therefore expanding the cavity, the thoracic cavity.
同时，胸腔将向上和向外旋转，从而扩大腔体，即胸腔。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
At= the end of inspiration, under normal conditions when you are at rest, you just relax and it's like pulling on a spring.
在吸气结束时，在正常情况下，当你休息时，你只是放松，就像拉动弹簧一样。
You pulled on a spring, and you let go and it relaxes.
你拉动弹簧，松开它，它就会放松。
So you inhale and you exhale.
所以你吸气，呼气。
Inhale, relax, and exhale.
吸气、放松、呼气。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So the exhale is passive?
那么呼气是被动的吗？
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
At rest, it's passive.
休息时，它是被动的。
We'll get into what happens when you need to increase the amount of air you're bringing in because your ventilation, your metabolism, goes up like during exercise.
我们将讨论当您需要增加吸入的空气量时会发生什么，因为您的通气量和新陈代谢会像运动期间一样增加。
Now the muscles themselves, skeletal muscles don't do anything unless the nervous system tells them to do something.
现在，肌肉本身、骨骼肌不会做任何事情，除非神经系统告诉它们做某事。
And when the nervous system tells them to do something, they contract.
当神经系统告诉它们做某事时，它们就会收缩。
So there are specialized neurons in the spinal cord and then above the spinal cord, the region called the brain stem, which go to respiratory muscles, in particular, for inspiration, the diaphragm and the external intercostal muscles in the ribcage, and they contract.
因此，脊髓中以及脊髓上方（称为脑干的区域）有专门的神经元，这些神经元进入呼吸肌（特别是用于吸气）、膈肌和胸腔中的外部肋间肌，并且它们收缩。
So these respiratory muscles, these inspiratory muscles, become active, and they become active for a period of time.
所以这些呼吸肌，这些吸气肌，就变得活跃起来，而且活跃一段时间。
Then they become silent, and when they become silent the muscles then relax back to their original resting level.
然后他们变得沉默，当他们变得沉默时，肌肉就会放松回到原来的休息水平。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
Where does that activity in these neurons that innervate the muscle, which are called motor neurons, where does that originate?
这些支配肌肉的神经元（称为运动神经元）的活动来自哪里？
Well, this was a question that's been bandied around for thousands of years, and when I was a beginning assistant professor, it was fairly high priority for me to try and figure that out because I wanted to understand where this rhythm of breathing was coming from, and you couldn't know where it was coming from until you knew where it was coming from.
嗯，这个问题已经被讨论了数千年，当我还是一名助理教授时，尝试弄清楚这个问题对我来说是相当重要的优先事项，因为我想了解这种呼吸节奏从何而来，而除非你知道它从何而来，否则你无法知道它从何而来。
I didn't phrase that properly.
我没有正确表达这一点。
You couldn't understand how it was being done until you know where to look.
除非您知道该往哪里看，否则您无法理解它是如何完成的。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
So we did a lot of experiments, which I can go into detail, and finally found there was a region in the brain stem that's, once again, this region sort of above the spinal cord, which was critical for generating this rhythm.
所以我们做了很多实验，我可以详细介绍，最后发现脑干中有一个区域，这个区域又位于脊髓上方，这对于产生这种节律至关重要。
It's called the pre-Bötzinger complex, and we could talk about how that was named.
它被称为前博辛格复合体，我们可以谈谈它是如何命名的。
This small site which contains, in humans, a few thousand neurons, it's located on either side and works in tandem.
在人类中，这个小部位包含数千个神经元，它位于两侧并协同工作。
And every breath begins with neurons in this region beginning to be active.
每次呼吸都始于该区域的神经元开始活跃。
And those neurons then connect ultimately to these motor neurons going to the diaphragm and to the external intercostals causing them to be active and causing this inspiratory effort.
然后这些神经元最终连接到这些运动神经元，到达膈肌和外部肋间肌，导致它们活跃并引起吸气努力。
When the neurons in the pre-Bötzinger complex finish their burst of activity, then inspiration stops, and then you begin to exhale because of this passive recall of the lung and ribcage.
当前 Bötzinger 复合体中的神经元完成其活动爆发时，吸气就会停止，然后由于肺和胸腔的被动回忆，您开始呼气。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Could I just briefly interrupt you to ask a few quick questions ...
我可以简单地打断您问几个简单的问题吗？
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
Of course.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
Before we move forward in this very informative answer?
在我们继续讨论这个内容丰富的答案之前？
The two questions are, is there anything known about the activation of the diaphragm and the intercostal muscles between the ribs as it relates to nose versus mouth breathing, or are they activated in the equivalent way regardless of whether or not someone is breathing through their nose or mouth?
这两个问题是，对于与鼻子和嘴巴呼吸相关的膈肌和肋骨之间的肋间肌的激活是否有任何了解，或者无论某人是否通过鼻子或嘴巴呼吸，它们是否以相同的方式激活？
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
I don't think we fully have the answer to that.
我认为我们还没有完全找到答案。
Clearly there are differences between nasal and mouth breathing at rest.
显然，休息时鼻呼吸和口呼吸之间存在差异。
The tendency is to do nasal breathing because the air flows that are necessary for normal breathing is easily managed by passing through the nasal cavities.
人们倾向于用鼻呼吸，因为正常呼吸所需的气流可以通过鼻腔轻松控制。
However, when your ventilation needs to increase, like during exercise, you need to move more air.
但是，当您需要增加通风时（例如运动期间），您需要移动更多空气。
You do that through your mouth because the airways are much larger than, and therefore you can move much more air.
你可以通过嘴来做到这一点，因为气道比嘴大得多，因此你可以移动更多的空气。
But at the level of the intercostals and the diaphragm, their contraction is almost agnostic to whether or not the nose and mouth are open.
但在肋间肌和横膈膜的水平上，它们的收缩几乎与鼻子和嘴巴是否张开无关。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So if I understand correctly, there's no reason to suspect that there are particular, perhaps even nonoverlapping sets of neurons in pre-Bötzinger area of the brain stem that trigger nasal versus mouth inhales?
因此，如果我理解正确的话，就没有理由怀疑脑干前博辛格区存在特定的、甚至可能不重叠的神经元组来触发鼻吸气和口吸气？
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
No, I would say that it's not that the pre-Bötzinger complex is not concerned and cannot influence that, but it does not appear as if there's any modulation of where the air is coming from, whether it's coming through your nasal passages or through your mouth.
不，我想说，这并不是说前博辛格复合体不关心并且不能影响这一点，但它似乎没有对空气的来源进行任何调节，无论是通过鼻腔还是通过口腔。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Great, thank you.
太好了，谢谢。
And then the other question I have is that these intercostal muscles between the ribs that move the ribs up and out, if I understand correctly, and the diaphragm, are those skeletal, or as the Brits would say, skeletal muscles or smooth muscles.
然后我的另一个问题是，如果我理解正确的话，肋骨之间的这些使肋骨向上和向外移动的肋间肌，以及横膈膜，都是骨骼肌，或者像英国人所说的那样，骨骼肌或平滑肌。
What type of muscle are we talking about here?
我们在这里谈论什么类型的肌肉？
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
As I said earlier, these are skeletal.
正如我之前所说，这些都是骨骼。
I didn't say they were skeletal muscles, but they're muscles that need neural input in order to move.
我并没有说它们是骨骼肌，但它们是需要神经输入才能移动的肌肉。
You talked about smooth muscles; they're specialized muscles like we have in the gut and in the heart, and these are muscles that are capable of actually contracting and relaxing on their own.
你谈到了平滑肌；它们是特殊的肌肉，就像我们肠道和心脏中的肌肉一样，这些肌肉实际上能够自行收缩和放松。
So the heart beats.
所以心脏跳动。
It doesn't need neural input in order to beat.
它不需要神经输入来击败。
The neural inputs modulate the strength of it and the frequency, but they beat on their own.
神经输入调节它的强度和频率，但它们会自行跳动。
The skeletal muscles involved in breathing need neural input.
参与呼吸的骨骼肌需要神经输入。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
Now there are smooth muscles that have an influence on breathing, and these are muscles that are lining the airways.
现在有一些平滑肌对呼吸有影响，这些肌肉是气道内壁的肌肉。
And so the airways have smooth muscle, and when they become activated, the smooth muscle can contract or relax.
因此气道有平滑肌，当它们被激活时，平滑肌可以收缩或放松。
And when they contract inappropriately is when you have problems breathing, like in asthma.
当它们不适当地收缩时，就会出现呼吸困难，例如哮喘。
Asthma is a condition where you get inappropriate constriction of the smooth muscles of the airways.
哮喘是一种气道平滑肌不适当收缩的疾病。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So there's no reason to think that in asthma that the pre-Bötzinger, or these other neuronal centers in the brain that activate breathing, that they are involved or causal for things like asthma.
因此，没有理由认为在哮喘中，前 Bötzinger 或大脑中激活呼吸的其他神经元中心与哮喘等疾病有关或起因。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
As of now, I would say the preponderance of evidence is that it's not involved, but we've not really fully investigated that.
到目前为止，我想说的主要证据是它不涉及，但我们还没有真正充分调查这一点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thank you.
谢谢你。
Sorry to break your flow, but I was terribly interested in knowing answers to those questions and you provided them, so thank you.
很抱歉打断了您的流程，但我非常想知道这些问题的答案，并且您提供了答案，所以谢谢您。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
Now remind me again where I was.
现在再次提醒我我在哪里。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Were just landing in pre-Bötzinger, and we will return to the naming of pre-Bötzinger because it's a wonderful and important story, really, that I think people should be aware of.
我们刚刚登陆前博辛格，我们将回到前博辛格的命名，因为这是一个精彩而重要的故事，真的，我认为人们应该意识到这一点。
But maybe you could march us through the brain centers that you've discovered and others have worked on as well that control breathing pre-Bötzinger, as well as related structures.
但也许你可以带领我们了解你发现的以及其他人也研究过的控制博辛格之前的呼吸的大脑中心以及相关结构。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
Okay.
好的。
So when we discovered the pre-Bötzinger, we thought that it was the primary source of all rhythmic respiratory movements, both inspiration and expiration.
因此，当我们发现前 Bötzinger 时，我们认为它是所有有节奏的呼吸运动（吸气和呼气）的主要来源。
The notion of a single source is like day or night.
单一来源的概念就像白天或黑夜。
It's like they all have the same origin, that the earth rotates, and day follows night.
就好像它们都有相同的起源，地球自转，昼夜交替。
And we thought that the pre-Bötzinger complex would be inhalation, exhalation.
我们认为前 Bötzinger 复合体是吸气、呼气。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
And then in a series of experiments we did in the early part of 2000, we discovered that there seemed to be another region which was dominant in producing expiratory movements.
然后，在 2000 年初我们进行的一系列实验中，我们发现似乎有另一个区域在产生呼气运动方面占主导地位。
That is the exhalation.
那就是呼气。
We had made a fundamental mistake with the discovery of the pre-Bötzinger, not taking into account that at rest, expiratory muscle activity, or exhalation, is passive.
我们在发现前博辛格时犯了一个根本性错误，没有考虑到休息时，呼气肌肉活动或呼气是被动的。
So if that's the case, a group of neurons that might generate active expiration, that is to contract the expiratory muscles like the abdominal muscles of the internal intercostals, are just silent.
因此，如果是这样的话，一组可能产生主动呼气的神经元，即收缩呼气肌肉（如肋间内肌的腹部肌肉）的神经元，只是保持沉默。
We just thought it wasn't there.
我们只是以为它不在那里。
It was coming from one place.
它来自一个地方。
But we got evidence that in fact it may have been coming from another place.
但我们得到的证据表明它实际上可能来自另一个地方。
And following up on these experiments, we discovered that there was a second oscillator, and that oscillator is involved in generating what we call active expiration, that is this active ...
后续这些实验，我们发现还有第二个振荡器，该振荡器参与生成我们所说的主动过期，即主动...
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Like, if I go, "Shh."
就像，如果我走了，“嘘”。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
Yeah, or when you begin to exercise and you have to go, "Ha, ha," and actually move that air out, this group of cells which is silent at rest suddenly becomes active to drive those muscles, and it appears that it's an independent oscillator.
是的，或者当你开始锻炼时，你必须发出“哈，哈”的声音，实际上将空气排出，这组在休息时保持沉默的细胞突然变得活跃起来，驱动那些肌肉，看起来它是一个独立的振荡器。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Maybe you could just clarify for people what an oscillator is.
也许你可以向人们澄清什么是振荡器。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
Okay, an oscillator is something that goes in a cycle.
好吧，振荡器是一个循环的东西。
So you can have a pendulum as an oscillator going back and forth.
所以你可以用一个钟摆作为来回摆动的振荡器。
The earth is an oscillator because it goes around and it's day and night.
地球是一个振荡器，因为它不停地运转，而且有白天和黑夜。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Some people's moods are oscillating.
一些人的情绪出现了波动。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
And it depends how regular they are.
这取决于它们的规律性。
You can have oscillators that are highly regular that are in a watch, or you can have those that are sporadic or episodic.
您可以在手表中使用高度规则的振荡器，也可以使用零星或间歇性的振荡器。
Breathing is one of those oscillators that, for life, has to be working continuously 24/7.
呼吸是生命周期中必须全天候（24/7）连续工作的振荡器之一。
It starts late in the third trimester because it has to be working when you're born and basically works throughout life.
它在妊娠晚期开始，因为它必须在你出生时发挥作用，并且基本上在一生中发挥作用。
And if it stops, if there's no intervention beyond a few minutes, it will likely be fatal.
如果它停止了，如果几分钟后没有干预，很可能会致命。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What is this second oscillator called?
第二个振荡器叫什么？
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
Well, we found it in a region around the facial nucleus.
嗯，我们在面核周围的区域发现了它。
So when this region was initially identified, we thought it was involved in sensing carbon dioxide.
因此，当这个区域最初被发现时，我们认为它参与了二氧化碳的感知。
It was what we call a central chemoreceptor.
这就是我们所说的中央化学感受器。
That is, we want to keep carbon dioxide levels, particularly in the brain, at a relatively stable level because the brain is extraordinarily sensitive to changes in pH.
也就是说，我们希望将二氧化碳水平（尤其是大脑中的二氧化碳水平）保持在相对稳定的水平，因为大脑对 pH 值的变化极其敏感。
If there's a big shift in carbon dioxide, there will be a big shift in brain pH, and that'll throw your brain, if I can use the technical term, out of whack.
如果二氧化碳发生重大变化，大脑的 pH 值也会发生重大变化，如果我可以使用专业术语的话，这会让你的大脑变得不正常。
And so you want to regulate that, and the way to regulate something in the brain is you have a sensor in the brain.
所以你想要调节它，而调节大脑中某些东西的方法就是你在大脑中安装一个传感器。
And others basically identified that the ventral surface of the brain stem, that is the part of the brain stem that's on this side, was critical for that.
其他人基本上认为脑干的腹侧表面，即脑干位于这一侧的部分，对此至关重要。
And then we identified a structure that was near the trapezoid nucleus.
然后我们发现了梯形核附近的一个结构。
It was not named in any of these, nor anatomical atlases.
它在任何这些书中都没有被命名，解剖图集中也没有被命名。
So we just picked a name out of the hat, and we called it the retrotrapezoid nucleus.
所以我们随便选了一个名字，称之为后梯形核。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I should clarify for people, when Jack is saying trapezoid, he doesn't mean the trapezoid muscles.
我应该向人们澄清一下，当杰克说梯形时，他并不是指梯形肌肉。
Trapezoid refers to the shape of this nucleus, this cluster of neurons.
梯形是指这个细胞核、这个神经元簇的形状。
Perifacial makes me think that this general area is involved in something related to mouth or face.
面部周围让我觉得这个一般区域涉及与嘴或脸有关的东西。
Is it an area rich with neurons controlling other parts of the face — eye blinks, nose twitches, lip curls, lip smacks?
这个区域是否富含控制面部其他部位的神经元——眨眼、鼻子抽动、卷唇、咂嘴？
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
If you go back, in an evolutionary sense, and a lot of things that are hard to figure out begin to make sense when you look at the evolution of the nervous system.
如果你从进化的角度回顾过去，当你观察神经系统的进化时，很多难以弄清楚的事情就会开始变得有意义。
When control of facial muscles, going back to more primitive creatures because they had to take things in their mouth for eating, so we call that the face, sort of developed.
当控制面部肌肉时，回到更原始的生物，因为他们必须用嘴吃东西，所以我们称之为面部，有点发达。
The eyes were there, the mouth is there.
眼睛在那儿，嘴在那儿。
These nuclei that contain the motor neurons, a lot of the control systems for them developed in the immediate vicinity.
这些含有运动神经元的细胞核，它们的许多控制系统都是在附近发育的。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
So if you think about the face, there's a lot of subnuclei around there that had various holes at various different times in evolution.
因此，如果你考虑一下脸部，就会发现周围有很多亚核，在进化的不同时期有各种孔。
And at one point in evolution, the facial muscles were probably very important in moving fluid in and out of the mouth and moving air in and out of the mouth.
在进化的某一时刻，面部肌肉对于将液体进出口腔以及将空气进出口腔可能非常重要。
And so part of these many different subnuclei now seems to be, in mammals, to be involved in the control of expiratory muscles.
因此，在哺乳动物中，这些许多不同亚核的一部分现在似乎参与了呼气肌的控制。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
But we have to remember that mammals are very special when it comes to breathing, because we're the only class of vertebrates that have a diaphragm.
但我们必须记住，哺乳动物在呼吸方面非常特殊，因为我们是唯一有隔膜的脊椎动物。
If you look at amphibians and reptiles, they don't have a diaphragm, and the way they breathe is not by actively inspiring and passively expiring.
如果你观察两栖动物和爬行动物，它们没有隔膜，它们的呼吸方式也不是主动吸气和被动呼气。
They breathe by actively expiring and passively inspiring because they don't have a powerful inspiratory muscle.
他们通过主动呼气和被动吸气来呼吸，因为他们没有强大的吸气肌。
And somewhere along the line the diaphragm developed, and there are lots of theories about how it developed.
隔膜在这个过程中发展起来，并且有很多关于它如何发展的理论。
I don't think it's particularly clear.
我觉得不是特别清楚。
There was something you can find in alligators and lizards that could have turned into a muscle that was the diaphragm.
你可以在鳄鱼和蜥蜴身上找到一种可以变成肌肉的东西，那就是隔膜。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
The amazing thing about the diaphragm is that it's mechanically extremely efficient, and what do I mean by that?
隔膜的神奇之处在于它的机械效率极高，这是什么意思？
Well, if you look at how oxygen gets from outside the body into the bloodstream, the critical passage is across the membrane in the lung.
好吧，如果你看看氧气如何从体外进入血液，就会发现关键的通道是穿过肺膜。
It's called the alveolar capillary membrane.
它称为肺泡毛细血管膜。
The alveolus is part of the lung, and the blood runs through capillaries, which are the smallest tubes in the circulatory system.
肺泡是肺的一部分，血液流经毛细血管，毛细血管是循环系统中最小的管道。
And at that point oxygen can go from the air-filled alveolus into the blood.
那时氧气可以从充满空气的肺泡进入血液。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Which is amazing.
这太棒了。
I find that amazing, even though it's just purely mechanical, the idea the way these little sacks in our lungs, we inhale and the air goes in and, literally, the oxygen can pass into the bloodstream.
我觉得这很神奇，尽管这只是纯粹的机械，我们肺部的这些小袋子，我们吸气，空气进入，从字面上看，氧气可以进入血液。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
Passes into the bloodstream, but the rate at which it passes will depend on the characteristics of the membrane, what the distance is between the alveolus and the blood vessel, the capillary.
进入血液，但其通过的速度取决于膜的特性、肺泡和血管（毛细血管）之间的距离。
But the key element is the surface area.
但关键因素是表面积。
The bigger the surface area, the more oxygen that can pass through.
表面积越大，可以通过的氧气就越多。
It's entirely a passive process.
这完全是一个被动的过程。
There's no magic about making oxygen go in.
让氧气进入并没有什么神奇之处。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
Now how do you get a, pack a large surface area in a small chest?
现在如何才能在小箱子里装上大面积的东西呢？
Well you start out with one tube, which is the trachea.
好吧，你从一根管子开始，这就是气管。
The trachea expands.
气管扩张。
Now you have two tubes.
现在你有两个管子。
Then you have four tubes, and it keeps branching.
然后你就有了四个管子，并且它不断分支。
At some point at the end of those branches, you put a little sphere, which is an alveolus.
在这些分支末端的某个时刻，你放了一个小球体，它是一个肺泡。
And that determines what the surface area is going to be.
这决定了表面积是多少。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
Now you then have a mechanical problem; you have the surface area.
现在你遇到了机械问题；你有表面积。
You have to be able to pull it apart.
你必须能够把它拆开。
So imagine you have a little square of an elastic membrane.
想象一下你有一个小正方形的弹性膜。
It doesn't take a lot of force to pull it apart.
不需要很大的力气就能把它拉开。
But now if you increase it by 50 times, you need a lot more force to pull it apart.
但现在如果将其增加 50 倍，则需要更多的力才能将其拉开。
So amphibians who were breathing, not by compressing the lungs and then just passively expanding it, weren't able to generate a lot of force.
因此，两栖动物的呼吸方式不是通过压缩肺部然后被动地扩张肺部来进行的，因此无法产生很大的力量。
So they have relatively few branches.
所以他们的分行相对较少。
So if you look at the surface area that they pack in their lungs relative to their body size, it's not very impressive.
因此，如果你看看它们肺部的表面积相对于它们的身体大小，就会发现，这并不是很令人印象深刻。
Whereas when you get to mammals, the amount of branching that you have is you have four to 500 hundred million alveoli.
然而，当你谈到哺乳动物时，你所拥有的分支数量是四到五百亿个肺泡。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
How, if we were to take those four to 5 million-
怎么样，如果我们拿那四到五百万——
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
Hundred million, four to 500 hundred million,
一个亿，四五百亿，
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hundred million, excuse me, and lay those out flat, what sort of surface area are we talking about?
对不起，一亿，把它们平铺，我们在谈论什么样的表面积？
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
About 70 square meters, which is about a third the size of a tennis court.
大约70平方米，大约是网球场大小的三分之一。
So you have a membrane inside of you a third the size of a tennis court that you actually have to expand every breath.
所以你的体内有一层相当于网球场三分之一大小的薄膜，你实际上每次呼吸都必须扩张它。
And you do that without exerting much of a ...
而且你不需要付出太多努力就能做到这一点...
You don't feel it.
你感觉不到。
And that's because you have this amazing muscle, the diaphragm, which, because of its positioning, just by moving two thirds of an inch down, is able to expand that membrane enough to move air into the lungs.
那是因为你有这种令人惊奇的肌肉，即隔膜，由于它的位置，只需向下移动三分之二英寸，就能使隔膜扩张到足以将空气移入肺部。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
Now at rest, the volume of air in your lungs is about two and a half liters.
现在休息时，肺部的空气量约为两升半。
Do we need to convert that to quarts?
我们需要将其转换为夸脱吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No.
不。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
Right?
对吗？
It's about two and a half liters.
大约有两升半。
When you take a breath, you're taking another 500 milliliters, or half a liter.
当你吸气时，你又吸入了 500 毫升，即半升。
That's the size of my fist.
那是我的拳头大小。
So you're increasing the volume by 20%, but you're doing that by pulling on this 70-square-meter membrane.
所以你将体积增加了 20%，但你是通过拉动这个 70 平方米的薄膜来实现的。
But that's enough to bring enough fresh air into the lung to mix in with the air that's already there, that the oxygen levels in your bloodstream goes from a partial pressure of oxygen, which is 40 millimeters of mercury to a hundred millimeters of mercury.
但这足以将足够的新鲜空气带入肺部，与肺部已有的空气混合，从而使血液中的氧含量从氧分压（40 毫米汞柱）上升到 100 毫米汞柱。
So that's a huge increase in oxygen, and that's enough to sustain normal metabolism.
所以氧气含量大幅增加，足以维持正常的新陈代谢。
So we have this amazing mechanical advantage by having a diaphragm.
因此，我们通过隔膜获得了惊人的机械优势。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do you think that our brains are larger than that of other mammals in part because of the amount of oxygen that we have been able to bring into our system?
您是否认为我们的大脑比其他哺乳动物的大脑更大，部分原因是我们能够带入系统的氧气量？
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
I would say a key step in the ability to develop a large brain that has a continuous demand for oxygen is the diaphragm.
我想说，要发展出对氧气有持续需求的大大脑，关键的一步是横膈膜。
Without a diaphragm, you're an amphibian.
没有隔膜，你就是两栖动物。
And there's another solution to increasing auction uptake, which is the way birds breathe, but birds have other limitations and they still can't get brains as big as mammals have.
还有另一种提高拍卖吸收率的解决方案，那就是鸟类的呼吸方式，但鸟类还有其他限制，它们仍然无法获得像哺乳动物一样大的大脑。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
So the brain utilizes maybe 20% of all the oxygen that we intake, and it needs it continuously.
因此，大脑可能利用了我们摄入的全部氧气的 20%，并且它持续需要它。
The brain doesn't want to be neglected.
大脑不想被忽视。
So this puts certain demands on breathing system.
所以这对呼吸系统提出了一定的要求。
In other words, you can't shut it down for a while, which poses other issues.
换句话说，您暂时无法将其关闭，这会带来其他问题。
You're born and you have to mature.
你出生了，你必须成熟。
You have the small body, you have a small lung, you have a very pliant rib cage.
你的身体很小，你的肺很小，你的胸腔非常柔韧。
And now you have to develop into an adult which has a stiffer rib cage, and so there are changes happening in your brain and your body where breathing, the neural control of breathing, has to change on the fly.
现在你必须成长为一个具有更坚硬的胸腔的成年人，因此你的大脑和你的身体会发生变化，呼吸，呼吸的神经控制，必须即时改变。
It's not like for things like vision where you have the opportunity to sleep, and while you're sleeping, the brain is capable of doing things that are not easy to do during wakefulness, like the construction crew comes in during sleep.
这不像视力这样的东西，你有机会睡觉，而当你睡觉时，大脑能够做一些在清醒时不容易做的事情，就像建筑工人在睡眠时进来一样。
The change in breathing have been described as trying to build an airplane while it's flying.
呼吸的变化被描述为试图在飞行时建造一架飞机。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Basically what Jack is saying is that respiration science is more complex and hardworking than vision science, which is a direct jab at me that some of you might have missed, but I definitely did not miss.
基本上，杰克所说的是，呼吸科学比视觉科学更复杂、更努力，这是对我的直接攻击，你们中的一些人可能错过了，但我绝对没有错过。
And I appreciate that you always take the opportunity like a good New Yorker to give me a good healthy intellectual jab.
我很感激你总是像一个优秀的纽约人一样抓住机会给我一次健康的智力攻击。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
A question related to diaphragmatic breathing versus nondiaphragmatic breathing, because the way you describe it, the diaphragm is always involved.
一个与横膈膜呼吸与非横膈膜呼吸有关的问题，因为按照你描述的方式，横膈膜总是参与其中。
But over the years, whether it be for yoga class, or a breathwork thing, or you hear online that we should be breathing with our diaphragm.
但多年来，无论是瑜伽课，还是呼吸练习，或者你在网上听到我们应该用隔膜呼吸。
That rather than lifting our ribcage when we breathe and our chest, that it is healthier, in air quotes, or better somehow, to have the belly expand when we inhale.
与呼吸时抬起胸腔和胸部相比，吸气时腹部扩张更健康，或者以某种方式更好。
I'm not aware of any particular studies that have really examined the direct health benefits of diaphragmatic versus nondiaphragmatic breathing, but if you don't mind commenting on anything you're aware of as it relates to diaphragmatic versus nondiaphragmatic breathing, whether or not people tend to be diaphragmatic breathers by default, et cetera, that would be, I think, interesting to a number of people.
我不知道有任何具体的研究真正检验了横膈膜呼吸与非横膈膜呼吸的直接健康益处，但如果你不介意评论你所知道的任何与横膈膜呼吸与非横膈膜呼吸有关的事情，无论人们是否默认倾向于横膈膜呼吸，等等，我认为这对很多人来说都是有趣的。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
Well, I think by default we are obligate diaphragm breathers.
嗯，我认为默认情况下我们是强制隔膜呼吸者。
There may be pathologies where the diaphragm is compromised and you have to use other muscles, and that's a challenge.
可能存在膈肌受损的病理情况，你必须使用其他肌肉，这是一个挑战。
Certainly at rest, other muscles can take over, but if you need to increase your ventilation, the diaphragm is very important.
当然，在休息时，其他肌肉可以接管，但如果您需要增加通气量，隔膜就非常重要。
It would be hard to increase your ventilation otherwise.
否则很难增加通风。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do you pay attention to whether or not you are breathing in a manner where your belly goes out a little bit as you inhale?
你是否留意自己的呼吸方式是否是吸气时腹部稍微向外鼓起？
Because I can do it both ways.
因为我可以两种方式都做到。
I can inhale, bring my belly in, or I can inhale, push my diaphragm and belly out, not the diaphragm out.
我可以吸气，将我的腹部带入，或者我可以吸气，将我的隔膜和腹部推出，而不是将隔膜推出。
And that's interesting, right?
这很有趣，对吧？
Because it's a completely different muscle set for each version.
因为每个版本都有完全不同的肌肉组。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
Well, in the context of things like breath practice, I'm a bit agnostic about the effects of some of the different patterns of breathing.
嗯，在呼吸练习之类的背景下，我对某些不同呼吸模式的影响有点不可知。
Clearly some are going to work through different mechanisms, and we can talk about that.
显然，有些将通过不同的机制发挥作用，我们可以讨论这一点。
But at a certain level, for example whether it's primarily diaphragm or you move your abdomen or not, I am agnostic about it.
但在某种程度上，例如是否主要是膈肌，或者是否移动腹部，我对此持不可知论。
I think that the changes that breathing induces in emotion and cognition, I have different ideas about what the influence is, and I don't see that primarily as which particular muscles you are choosing.
我认为呼吸会引起情绪和认知的变化，我对影响是什么有不同的看法，而且我不认为这主要取决于你选择了哪些特定的肌肉。
But that just could be my own prejudice.
但这可能只是我自己的偏见。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay, and we will return to that as a general theme in a little bit.
好的，我们稍后会回到这个主题。
I want to ask you about sighing.
我想问你关于叹息的事。
One of the many great gifts that you've given us over the years is an understanding of these things that we call physiological sighs.
多年来，您给予我们的众多伟大礼物之一就是对这些我们称之为生理叹息的事物的理解。
Could you tell us about physiological sighs?
您能告诉我们什么是生理叹息吗？
What's known about them, what your particular interest in them is, and what they're good for?
对它们了解多少，您对它们特别感兴趣，以及它们有什么用处？
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
Very interesting and important question.
非常有趣且重要的问题。
So everyone has a sense of what a sigh is.
所以每个人都知道什么是叹息。
Certainly, when we're emotional in some ways, we're stressed, we're particularly happy, we'll take a little sigh.
当然，当我们在某些方面情绪激动的时候，我们有压力，我们特别高兴，我们会稍微叹一口气。
It turns out that we're sighing all the time, and when I would ask people who are not particularly knowledgeable, that haven't read my papers or James Nestor's book or listened to your podcast, they're usually off by two orders of magnitude about how frequently we sigh, on the low side.
事实证明，我们一直在叹息，当我问那些知识不是特别丰富、没有读过我的论文或詹姆斯·内斯特的书或听过你的播客的人时，他们关于我们叹息的频率通常会低两个数量级。
In other words, they say, "Oh, once an hour.
换句话说，他们说：“哦，每小时一次。
10 times a day."
一天10次。”
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
We sigh about every five minutes, and I would encourage anyone who finds that to be an unbelievable fact is to lie down in a quiet room and just breathe normally, just relax, just let go and just pay attention to your breathing, and you'll find that every couple of minutes you're taking a deep breath and you can't stop it.
我们大约每五分钟就会叹息一次，我会鼓励那些发现这是一个令人难以置信的事实的人，那就是躺在一个安静的房间里，正常地呼吸，放松，放手，注意你的呼吸，你会发现每隔几分钟你就会深呼吸一次，而且你无法停止。
It just happens.
它就这样发生了。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
Now why?
现在为什么？
Well, we have to go back to the lung again.
好吧，我们必须再次回到肺部。
The lung has these 500 million alveoli, and they're very tiny.
肺部有 5 亿个肺泡，而且它们非常小。
They're 200 microns across, so they're really tiny.
它们的直径为 200 微米，因此非常小。
And you can think of them as fluid filled.
您可以将它们视为充满液体。
They're fluid lined.
它们有液体衬里。
And the reason they're fluid lined has to do with the esoterica of the mechanics of that.
它们之所以采用流体内衬，与其深奥的机械原理有关。
It makes it a little easier to stretch them with this fluid line, which is called surfactant.
使用这种称为表面活性剂的流体线可以更容易地拉伸它们。
And surfactant is important during development.
表面活性剂在开发过程中很重要。
It is a determining factor when premature infants are born.
它是早产儿出生的决定因素。
If they do not have lung surfactant, then it makes it much more challenging to take care of them than after they have lung surfactant, which is sometime, if I remember correctly, in the late second, early third trimester, which it appears.
如果他们没有肺表面活性剂，那么照顾他们会比有肺表面活性剂后更具挑战性，如果我没记错的话，是在妊娠中期末期，看起来是这样。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
In any case, it's fluid lined.
无论如何，它都是有液体的。
Now think of a balloon that you would blow up, but now, before you blow it up, fill the balloon with water.
现在想象一个你要吹起来的气球，但现在，在吹它之前，先给气球注满水。
Squeeze all the water out, and now when you squeeze all the water out, you notice the sides of the balloon stick to each other.
把所有的水都挤出来，现在当你把所有的水都挤出来时，你会发现气球的两侧粘在一起了。
Why is that?
这是为什么？
Well, that's because water has what's called surface tension.
嗯，那是因为水具有所谓的表面张力。
And when you have two surfaces of water together, they actually tend to stick to each other.
当两个水面在一起时，它们实际上往往会相互粘在一起。
Now, when you try and blow that balloon up, you'll notice, if you've ever done it before, that the balloon is a little harder to inflate than if it were dry on the inside.
现在，当你尝试将气球吹起来时，你会发现，如果你以前做过的话，气球比内部干燥的气球更难充气。
Why is that?
这是为什么？
Because you have to overcome that surface tension.
因为你必须克服表面张力。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
Well, your alveoli have a tendency to collapse.
嗯，你的肺泡有塌陷的倾向。
There's 500 million of them.
其中有 5 亿。
They're not collapsing at a very high rate, but it's a slow rate that's not trivial.
它们崩溃的速度不是很高，但速度很慢，这并不是微不足道的。
And when an alveolus collapses, it no longer can receive oxygen or take carbon dioxide out.
当肺泡塌陷时，它就无法再接收氧气或排出二氧化碳。
It's sort of taken out of the equation.
它有点被排除在等式之外。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
Now if you have 500 million of them and you lose 10, no big deal.
现在，如果你有 5 亿个，而你失去了 10 个，也没什么大不了的。
But if they keep collapsing, you can lose a significant part of the surface area of your lung.
但如果它们继续塌陷，您可能会损失肺部表面积的很大一部分。
Now a normal breath is not enough to pop them open, but if you take a deep breath, it pops them open-
现在正常的呼吸不足以将它们打开，但是如果你深呼吸，它就会将它们打开-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Through nose or mouth.
通过鼻子或嘴巴。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
Doesn't matter.
没关系。
It's just increased that lung volume because you're just pulling on the lungs.
它只是增加了肺容量，因为你只是在拉动肺部。
They'll pop open about every five minutes.
它们大约每五分钟就会弹出一次。
And so we're doing it every five minutes in order to maintain the health of our lung.
因此，我们每五分钟做一次，以保持肺部健康。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
In the early days of mechanical ventilation, which was used to treat polio victims who had weakness of their respiratory muscles, they'd be put in these big steel tubes, and the way they would work is that the pressure outside the
在机械通气的早期，用于治疗呼吸肌无力的脊髓灰质炎患者，他们会被放入这些大钢管中，其工作方式是通过外部压力
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
And the way they would work is that the pressure outside the body would drop, that would put an expansion pressure on the ribcage.
他们的工作方式是身体外部的压力会下降，这会给胸腔带来扩张压力。
The ribcage would expand and then the lung would expand, and then the pressure would go back to normal and the lung and ribcage would go back to normal.
胸腔会扩张，然后肺部会扩张，然后压力会恢复正常，肺部和胸腔也会恢复正常。
This was great for getting ventilation, but there was a relatively high mortality rate.
这对于通风来说很有好处，但死亡率相对较高。
It was a bit of a mystery, and one solution was to just give bigger breaths.
这有点神秘，解决办法之一就是加大呼吸量。
They'd get bigger breaths and the mortality rate dropped.
他们的呼吸会变得更大，死亡率也会下降。
And it wasn't until, I think it was the '50s, where they realized that they didn't have to increase every breath to be big.
直到 20 世纪 50 年代，他们才意识到不必增加每次呼吸就能变得更大。
What they needed to do is every so often, they need to have one big breath.
他们需要做的就是时不时地，需要深吸一口气。
So you have a couple of minutes of normal breaths, and then one big breath, just mimicking the physiological sighs.
所以你会进行几分钟的正常呼吸，然后深吸一口气，模仿生理上的叹息。
And then the mortality rate drops significantly.
然后死亡率显着下降。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
And if you see someone on a ventilator in the hospital, if you watch, every couple of minutes, then you'll see the membrane move up and down.
如果你在医院里看到有人使用呼吸机，如果你每隔几分钟观察一下，你就会看到薄膜上下移动。
Every couple of minutes, there'll be a superbreath, and that pops it open.
每隔几分钟，就会有一阵剧烈的呼吸，然后它就会打开。
So there are these mechanisms for these physiological sighs.
所以这些生理叹息有这些机制。
So just like with the collapse of the lungs, where you need a big pressure to pop it open, it's the same thing with alveola.
因此，就像肺部塌陷一样，需要很大的压力才能将其打开，肺泡也是如此。
You need a bigger pressure and a normal breath is not enough, so you have to take a big inhale.
你需要更大的压力，正常的呼吸是不够的，所以你必须大吸气。
And what nature has done is instead of requiring us to remember to do it, it does it automatically, and it does it about every five minutes.
大自然所做的不是要求我们记住去做，而是自动做，大约每五分钟做一次。
And one of the questions we want to ...
我们想知道的问题之一......
we asked is, how is this happening?
我们问的是，这是怎么发生的？
Why every five minutes?
为什么每五分钟一次？
What's doing it?
它在做什么？
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
And we got into it through a back door, typical of the way a lot of science gets done.
我们是通过后门进入的，这是许多科学研究的典型方式。
There's a serendipitous event where you run across a paper and something clicks, and you just follow it up.
有一次偶然的事件，你偶然发现了一篇论文，然后点击了一些东西，然后你就跟进了。
Sometimes you go down blind ends, but this turned out to be incredibly productive.
有时你会陷入死胡同，但事实证明这是非常有成效的。
One of the guys in my lab was reading the paper about stress, and during stress, lots of things happen in the body.
我实验室的一个人正在阅读有关压力的论文，在压力期间，身体会发生很多事情。
One of which is that the hypothalamus, which is very reactive to body state, releases peptides, which are specialized molecules, which then circulate throughout the brain and body.
其中之一是，对身体状态非常敏感的下丘脑会释放肽，这是一种特殊的分子，然后在整个大脑和身体中循环。
That particular effect's usually to help deal better with the stress.
这种特殊的效果通常有助于更好地应对压力。
And one class of the peptides that release are called bombesin-related peptides.
释放的一类肽称为铃蟾肽相关肽。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
And he also realized because he was a breathing guy that when you stress, you sigh more.
他还意识到，因为他是一个会呼吸的人，所以当你有压力时，你会叹息得更多。
So we said, "All right, maybe they're related." Bombesin is relatively cheap to buy.
所以我们说：“好吧，也许它们是相关的。”铃蟾肽的购买价格相对便宜。
We said, "Let's buy some bombesin, throw it in the brain stem.
我们说：“我们去买一些铃蟾肽，把它扔进脑干。
Let's see what happens." And one of the nice things about some experiments that we try to design, is to fail quickly.
让我们看看会发生什么。”我们尝试设计的一些实验的好处之一就是很快就会失败。
So here we had the idea.
所以我们就有了这个想法。
We fill bombesin in, and if bombesin did nothing, nothing lost.
我们填充了铃蟾肽，如果铃蟾肽什么都不做，也不会造成任何损失。
Maybe $50 to buy the bombesin.
也许 50 美元可以购买铃蟾肽。
But if it did something, it might be of some interest.
但如果它做了什么，可能会引起一些兴趣。
So we, one afternoon, he did the experiment.
所以我们，一天下午，他做了这个实验。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
And he comes to me, he says ...
他来找我，他说……
I won't quote exactly what he said, because that might need to be censored, but he said, "Look at this." And it was in a rat.
我不会准确引用他的话，因为这可能需要审查，但他说，“看看这个。”它是在一只老鼠身上。
Rats sigh about every two minutes.
老鼠大约每两分钟就会叹息一次。
They're smaller than we are, and they need to sigh more often.
他们比我们小，需要更频繁地叹息。
Their sigh rate from went from 20 to 30 per hour, to 500 per hour when he put bombesin into the pre-Bötzinger complex.
当他将铃蟾肽放入前 Bötzinger 复合物中时，他们的叹息率从每小时 20 次增加到 30 次，增加到每小时 500 次。
PART 1 OF 4 ENDS Andrew Huberman:
第 1 部分（共 4 部分）结束 Andrew Huberman：
Amazing.
太棒了。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
And the way he did that is he took a very, very fine glass needle and anesthetized a rat, and inserted that needle directly into the pre-Bötzinger complex.
他的做法是，用一根非常非常细的玻璃针麻醉一只老鼠，然后将针直接插入前波青格复合体中。
So it wasn't a generalized delivery of the peptide, it was localized to the pre-Bötzinger, and the sigh rate went through the roof.
因此，这不是肽的普遍传递，而是局限于前 Bötzinger，并且叹息率达到了顶峰。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I would add that that was an important experiment to deliver the bombesin directly to that site because one could have concluded that the injection of the bombesin increased sighing because it increased stress rather than directly increased sighing.
我想补充一点，这是一项将铃蟾肽直接递送到该部位的重要实验，因为人们可以得出这样的结论：注射铃蟾肽会增加叹息，因为它会增加压力，而不是直接增加叹息。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Amongst hundreds of other possible interpretations.
还有数百种其他可能的解释。
So the precision here is very important.
所以这里的精度非常重要。
And that goes back to what I said at the very beginning.
这又回到了我一开始所说的。
Knowing where this is happening allows you to do the proper investigations.
了解发生这种情况的位置可以让您进行适当的调查。
If we didn't know where the inspiratory rhythm was originating, we never could have done this experiment.
如果我们不知道吸气节律的起源，我们永远不可能完成这个实验。
And so then we did another experiment.
然后我们做了另一个实验。
We said, "Okay, what happens if we take the cells in the pre-Bötzinger that are responding to the peptide?" So neurons will respond to a peptide because they have specialized receptors for that peptide.
我们说，“好吧，如果我们取出对肽有反应的前 Bötzinger 细胞，会发生什么？”因此，神经元会对肽做出反应，因为它们具有针对该肽的专门受体。
And not every neuron expresses those receptors.
并不是每个神经元都表达这些受体。
In the pre-Bötzinger complex is probably a few hundred out of thousands.
在博辛格之前的复合体中，可能有数千个。
So we used the technique we had used before, and this is a technique developed by Doug Lappe, down in San Diego, where you could take a peptide and conjugate it with a molecule called saporin.
因此，我们使用了之前使用过的技术，这是由圣地亚哥的 Doug Lappe 开发的技术，您可以使用一种肽并将其与一种称为皂草素的分子结合。
Saporin is a plant-derived molecule which is a cousin to ricin.
皂草素是一种源自植物的分子，是蓖麻毒素的近亲。
And many of your listeners may have heard of ricin.
许多听众可能听说过蓖麻毒素。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's a ribosomal toxin.
它是一种核糖体毒素。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
Right?
对吗？
It's very nasty.
这非常令人讨厌。
It's, a single stab with an umbrella will kill you, which is something that supposedly happened to a Bulgarian diplomat by a Russian operative on a bridge in London.
这是，用雨伞一刺就会杀死你，据说俄罗斯特工在伦敦一座桥上发生了一件保加利亚外交官身上的事情。
He got stabbed.
他被刺伤了。
And the way ricin works is it goes inside a cell, crosses the cell membrane, goes inside a cell, kills the cell, and then it goes to the next cell and then the next cell and then the next cell.
蓖麻毒素的工作方式是它进入细胞内部，穿过细胞膜，进入细胞内部，杀死细胞，然后进入下一个细胞，然后进入下一个细胞，然后进入下一个细胞。
It's extremely dangerous.
这是极其危险的。
In fact, it's firstly impossible to work on in a lab in the United States.
事实上，在美国的实验室里工作首先是不可能的。
They won't let you touch it.
他们不会让你碰它。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Ricin?
蓖麻毒素？
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
Ricin.
蓖麻毒素。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because we've worked with saporin many times.
因为我们已经多次使用皂草素了。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
Saporin is safe because it doesn't cross cell membranes.
皂草素是安全的，因为它不穿过细胞膜。
So you get an injection of saporin, it won't do anything because it stays outside of cells.
所以你注射皂草素，它不会有任何作用，因为它留在细胞外。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Please, nobody do that, even though it doesn't cross cell membranes.
拜托，没有人这样做，即使它不跨越细胞膜。
Please, nobody inject saporin, whether or not you are an operative or otherwise.
请不要注射肥皂素，无论您是否是特工或其他人员。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
Thank you, Andrew for protecting me there.
谢谢你，安德鲁保护了我。
But what Doug Lappe figured out is that when a ligand binds to a receptor, there's, when a molecule binds to its receptor, in many cases that receptor-ligand complex gets pulled inside the cell.
但道格·拉普发现，当配体与受体结合时，当分子与其受体结合时，在许多情况下，受体-配体复合物被拉入细胞内。
So it goes from the membrane, the cell, inside the cell.
所以它来自细胞膜、细胞、细胞内部。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So you can't go to the dance alone, but if you're coupled up, you get in the door.
所以你不能单独去参加舞会，但如果你们结伴而行，你就可以进去。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
That's right.
没错。
So what he figured out is he put saporin to the peptide, the peptide binds to its receptor, it gets internalized, and then when it's inside the cell, saporin does the same thing that ricin does.
所以他发现，他将皂草素放入肽中，肽与其受体结合，它被内化，然后当它进入细胞内时，皂草素会起到与蓖麻毒素相同的作用。
It kills the cell, but then it can't go into the next cell.
它杀死了细胞，但随后它无法进入下一个细胞。
So the only cells that get killed, or the more polite term "ablated," are cells that express that receptor.
因此，唯一被杀死的细胞，或者更礼貌的术语“消融”，是表达该受体的细胞。
So if you have a big conglomeration of cells, you have a few thousand, and only 50 of them express that receptor, then you inject the saporin conjugated to the ligand, to the peptide, and only those 50 cells die.
因此，如果你有一大群细胞，有几千个，其中只有 50 个表达该受体，那么你注射与配体、肽结合的皂草素，只有那 50 个细胞死亡。
So we took bombesin conjugated to saporin, injected into pre-Bötzinger complex of rats.
因此，我们将与皂素结合的铃蟾肽注射到大鼠的前 Bötzinger 复合体中。
And it took about a couple days for the saporin to actually ablate cells.
皂草素大约需要几天时间才能真正消融细胞。
And what happened is that the mice started sighing less and less, excuse me, the rats started sighing less and less and less and less and essentially stopped sighing.
发生的事情是，老鼠开始叹息越来越少，对不起，老鼠开始叹息越来越少，越来越少，基本上停止了叹息。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So your student, or postdoc, was it?
那么是你的学生，还是博士后？
Murdered the cells, and as a consequence, the sighing goes away.
谋杀了细胞，结果，叹息消失了。
What was the consequence of eliminating sighing on the internal state or the behavior of the rats?
消除叹息对老鼠的内部状态或行为有何影响？
Well, did they, in other words, if one can't sigh, generate physiological sighs, what is the consequence on state of mind?
那么，换句话说，如果一个人不能叹息，产生生理性的叹息，对精神状态会产生什么影响呢？
You would imagine that carbon dioxide would build up more readily or more to higher levels in the bloodstream and that the animals would be more stressed.
你会想象二氧化碳会更容易在血液中积聚或达到更高的水平，并且动物会承受更大的压力。
That that's the kind of logical extension of the way we set it up.
这就是我们设置方式的逻辑延伸。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
It was less benign than that.
它比那更不仁慈。
When the animals got to the point where they weren't sighing, then, and we did not determine this, but the presumption was that their lung function significantly deteriorated.
当动物达到不再叹气的程度时，我们并没有确定这一点，但推测是它们的肺功能显着恶化。
And their whole health deteriorated significantly, and we had to sacrifice them.
他们的整体健康状况显着恶化，我们不得不牺牲他们。
So I can't tell you whether they was stressed or not, but their breathing got to be significantly deteriorated that we sacrificed them at that point.
所以我不能告诉你他们是否有压力，但他们的呼吸明显恶化，我们当时就牺牲了他们。
Now we don't know whether that is specifically related to the fact they didn't sigh or that there was secondary damage due to the fact that some cells die.
现在我们不知道这是否与它们没有叹息有关，或者由于某些细胞死亡而造成二次损伤。
So we never determined that.
所以我们从未确定过这一点。
Now, after we did this study, to be candid, it wasn't a high priority for us to get this out the door and publish it, so it stayed on the shelf.
现在，在我们完成这项研究之后，坦率地说，将其推出并发表并不是我们的首要任务，因此它一直被束之高阁。
Then I got a phone call from a graduate student at Stanford, Kevin Yackle, who starts asking me all these interesting questions about breathing, and I'm happy to answer them, but at some point it concerned me because he was working for a renowned biochemist who worked on lung in Drosophila fruit flies.
然后我接到了斯坦福大学研究生凯文·亚克尔 (Kevin Yackle) 的电话，他开始问我所有这些关于呼吸的有趣问题，我很乐意回答这些问题，但在某些时候，这让我感到担忧，因为他正在为一位著名的生物化学家工作，他研究果蝇的肺。
Mark Krasnow.
马克·克拉斯诺.
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, my next door colleague,
是的，我的隔壁同事，
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
Right?
对吗？
Yeah.
是的。
And I said, "Why are you asking me this?" And he said, "I was an undergraduate at UCLA, and you gave a lecture on my undergraduate class, and I was curious about breathing ever since." So that's when those things, which as a professor you love to hear, that actually is something you really affected the life of a student.
我说：“你为什么问我这个？”他说：“我是加州大学洛杉矶分校的一名本科生，你在我的本科生课程上做了一次讲座，从那时起我就对呼吸感到好奇。”因此，作为一名教授，您喜欢听到的那些事情实际上是您真正影响学生生活的事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
When you birthed a competitor, but you had only yourself to blame.
当你诞生了一个竞争对手时，但你只能责怪自己。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
No, I don't look at that as a competitor.
不，我不认为这是竞争对手。
I think that there's enough interesting things to go on.
我认为还有足够多有趣的事情可以继续。
I know some of our neuroscience colleagues say, "You can work on my lab, but then when you leave my lab, you got to work on something different."
我知道我们的一些神经科学同事说，“你可以在我的实验室工作，但当你离开我的实验室时，你就必须从事不同的工作。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No one I ever trained with said that.
和我一起训练过的人没有人这么说过。
It's open field.
这是空地。
You want to work on something, you hop in the mix.
你想要做某件事，你就加入其中。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
Yeah.
是的。
But there are people like that, neuroscientists like that; I never felt like that.
但也有这样的人，这样的神经科学家；我从来没有这样的感觉。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I hear that their breathing apparati are disrupted, and it causes a brain dysfunction that leads to the behavior you just described.
我听说他们的呼吸装置受到干扰，导致大脑功能障碍，从而导致你刚才描述的行为。
That's actually not true.
这实际上不是真的。
But in terms of the ...
但就...
Before you, we talk about the beautiful story with Yackle and Krasnow and Feldman lab, I want to just make sure that I understand.
在您之前，我们与 Yackle、Krasnow 和 Feldman 实验室讨论了这个美丽的故事，我想确保我理解了。
So if physiological sighs don't happen, basically breathing overall suffers.
因此，如果生理性叹息没有发生，基本上整个呼吸都会受到影响。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
Well, that would go back to the observations in polio victims in these iron lungs, where the principle deficit was there was no hyperinflation of the lungs, and they, many of them deteriorated and died.
好吧，这可以追溯到对这些铁肺中的脊髓灰质炎患者的观察，其中的主要缺陷是肺部没有过度膨胀，而他们中的许多人病情恶化并死亡。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And just to stay on this one more moment before we move to what you were about to describe, we hear often that people will overdose on drugs of various kinds because they stop breathing.
在我们开始讨论您要描述的内容之前，我们经常听说人们会因停止呼吸而过量服用各种药物。
So barbiturates, alcohol combined with barbiturates, is a common cause of death for drug users and contraindications of drugs, and these kinds of things.
因此，巴比妥类药物、酒精与巴比妥类药物的结合是吸毒者的常见死因和药物禁忌症等。
You hear all the time about celebrities dying because they combined alcohol with barbiturates.
你总是听说名人因为酒精与巴比妥混合而死亡。
Is there any evidence that the sighs that occur during sleep or during states of deep, deep relaxation and sedation, that sighs recover the brain?
是否有任何证据表明，在睡眠期间或在深度放松和镇静状态下发生的叹息可以使大脑恢复？
Because you could imagine that if these sighs don't happen, as a consequence of some drug impacting these brain centers, that could be one cause of basically asphyxiation and death.
因为你可以想象，如果由于某些药物影响这些大脑中枢而没有发生这些叹息，那可能是基本上窒息和死亡的原因之一。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
If you look at the progression of any mammal to death, you find that their breathing slows down, a death due to, quote, natural causes.
如果你观察任何哺乳动物死亡的过程，你会发现它们的呼吸减慢，这是由于自然原因而死亡。
Their breathing slows down, it will stop and then they'll gasp.
他们的呼吸减慢、停止，然后喘息。
So we have the phrase "dying gasp," super large breaths.
所以我们就有了“垂死喘息”这个短语，即超级大的呼吸。
They're often described as an attempt to autoresuscitate, that as you take that super deep breath and that maybe it can kickstart the engine again.
它们通常被描述为一种自动复苏的尝试，当你进行超级深呼吸时，也许它可以再次启动引擎。
We do not know the degree to such things as gasp are really sighs that are particularly large.
我们不知道喘息之类的东西到底有多大，才算是特别大的叹息。
And so if you suppress the ability to gasp in an individual who is subject to an overdose, then whereas they might been able to arouse their breathing, if that's prevented, they don't get rearoused.
因此，如果你抑制服药过量的人的喘息能力，那么尽管他们可能能够唤醒呼吸，但如果阻止了这种情况，他们就不会重新唤醒。
So that is certainly a possibility.
所以这当然是有可能的。
But this has not been investigated.
但这还没有被调查过。
I mean one of the things that I'm interested in is in individuals who have diseases which will affect pre-Bötzinger complex, and there's data in Parkinson's disease and multiple system atrophy, which is another form of neurodegeneration where there's loss of neurons in pre-Bötzinger.
我的意思是，我感兴趣的一件事是那些患有会影响前 Bötzinger 复合体的疾病的个体，并且有帕金森病和多系统萎缩的数据，这是另一种形式的神经退行性疾病，其中前 Bötzinger 中的神经元丢失。
And the question is, and it also may happen in ALS, sometimes referred to as Lou Gehrig's disease and amyotrophic lateral sclerosis; these individuals often die during sleep.
问题是，这种情况也可能发生在 ALS 中，有时被称为卢伽雷氏病和肌萎缩侧索硬化症；这些人经常在睡眠中死亡。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
We have an idea, that we have not been able to get anyone to test, is that patients with Parkinson's, patients with MLS typically breathe normally during wakefulness.
我们有一个想法，但我们无法让任何人进行测试，帕金森病患者、MLS 患者通常在清醒时呼吸正常。
The disturbances that they have in breathing is during sleep.
他们的呼吸紊乱发生在睡眠期间。
So Parkinson's patients at the end stages of the disease often have significant disturbances in their sleep pattern, but not during wakefulness.
因此，帕金森氏症患者在疾病末期通常会出现明显的睡眠模式紊乱，但在清醒时则不会。
And we think that what could be happening is that the approximate cause of death is not heart failure, is that they become apneic; they stop breathing and don't resuscitate.
我们认为，可能发生的情况是，死亡的大致原因不是心力衰竭，而是呼吸暂停；他们停止呼吸并且无法复苏。
And that resuscitation may or may not be due to an explicit suppression of sighs, but to an overall suppression of the whole apparatus or the pre-Bötzinger complex.
这种复苏可能是也可能不是由于对叹息的明确抑制，而是由于对整个装置或前波青格复合体的整体抑制。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Got it.
明白了。
Thank you.
谢谢。
So Yackle calls you up.
所以雅克尔给你打电话。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
So he calls us, calls me up, and he's great kid, super smart, and he tells me about these experiments that he's doing where he's looking in a database to try and find out what molecules are enriched in regions of the brain that are critical for breathing.
所以他给我们打电话，给我打电话，他是个好孩子，超级聪明，他告诉我他正在做的这些实验，他在数据库中查找，试图找出大脑中对呼吸至关重要的区域富含哪些分子。
So we and others have mapped out these regions in the brain stem, and he was looking at one of these databases to see what's enriched.
因此，我们和其他人已经绘制出了脑干中的这些区域，他正在查看这些数据库之一，看看有什么丰富的内容。
And I said, "That's great, will you be willing to share our work together?" And he says, "No, my advisor doesn't want me to do that." So I said, "Okay." But Kevin's a great kid and I enjoyed talking to him and he's a smart guy.
我说：“太好了，你愿意一起分享我们的工作吗？”他说：“不，我的导师不希望我这样做。”所以我说：“好吧。”但凯文是一个很棒的孩子，我很喜欢和他说话，他是一个聪明的人。
And what I found in academia is that the smartest people only want to hire people smarter than them and only want and have the preference to interact with people smarter than them.
我在学术界发现，最聪明的人只想雇用比他们聪明的人，并且只希望并偏好与比他们聪明的人互动。
The faculty who are not at the highest level.
师资水平不高。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
And at every institution there's a distribution.
每个机构都有一个发行版。
There're ones above the mean, and those below the mean, those whom below the mean are very threatened by that.
有高于平均水平的人，也有低于平均水平的人，低于平均水平的人因此受到很大的威胁。
And I saw Kevin as a shining light, and I didn't care whether he was going to outcompete me because whatever he did was going to help me in the field.
我把凯文视为一道闪亮的光芒，我不在乎他是否会在竞争中胜过我，因为无论他做什么都会在这个领域帮助我。
So I did wherever I can to help, to work with Kevin.
所以我尽我所能提供帮助，与凯文一起工作。
So at one point I got invited to give grand rounds in neurology at Stanford.
因此，有一次我受邀去斯坦福大学进行神经病学方面的大型巡视。
Turns out an undergraduate student who had worked with me was now head of the training program for neurologists at Stanford.
原来和我一起工作的一名本科生现在是斯坦福大学神经科医生培训项目的负责人。
Then he invited me.
然后他邀请了我。
And at the end of my visit, I go to Mark Krasnow's office and Kevin is there and a postdoc who was also working on a project was there.
访问结束时，我去了马克·克拉斯诺的办公室，凯文在那里，还有一位也在从事一个项目的博士后。
And towards the end of the conversation, Mark says to me, "We found this one molecule which is highly concentrated in an important region for breathing." And I said, "Oh, that's great.
谈话快结束时，马克对我说：“我们发现这种分子高度集中在呼吸的重要区域。”我说：“哦，那太好了。
What is it?" And he says, "I can't tell you because we want to work on it." So, of course I'm disappointed, but I realize that the ethic in some areas of science, or the custom in some areas of science, is that until you get a publication, you be relatively restricted in sharing the information.
是什么？”他说：“我不能告诉你，因为我们想解决这个问题。”所以，我当然很失望，但我意识到某些科学领域的道德规范或某些科学领域的惯例是，在获得出版物之前，您在共享信息方面受到相对限制。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mark and I are going to have a chat when I come back.
我回来后马克和我要聊聊。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
Okay.
好的。
All right.
好的。
Well he may remember the story differently, but I said, "Okay." And as I'm walking out the door, I remember these experiments I described to you about bombesin, and that was the only unusual molecule we're working in.
好吧，他可能对这个故事有不同的记忆，但我说：“好吧。”当我走出门时，我记得我向你描述过的关于铃蟾肽的实验，这是我们正在研究的唯一不寻常的分子。
So the reason I'm rushing out the door is I have a flight to catch.
所以我冲出门外的原因是我要赶航班。
So I stick my head in, I said, "Is this molecule related to bombesin?" And then I run off.
所以我把头伸进去，我说：“这个分子与铃蟾肽有关吗？”然后我就跑掉了。
I don't even wait for them to reply.
我什至不等他们回复。
I get to the airport, Mark calls me and he says, "Bombesin, the peptide we found is related to bombesin.
我到了机场，马克打电话给我，他说：“铃蟾肽，我们发现的肽与铃蟾肽有关。
What does it do?" And I said, "I'm not telling."
它有什么作用？”我说：“我不说。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh my.
天哪。
And I'm so glad I wasn't involved in this collaboration.
我很高兴我没有参与这次合作。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
No, no. But that was sort of a tease.
不，不。但这有点戏弄。
Because I said, "Well, let's work together on this." And then we worked together on this-
因为我说：“好吧，让我们一起努力吧。”然后我们就这个问题进行了合作——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
A prisoner's dilemma at that point.
这时候就陷入了囚徒困境。
Yeah.
是的。
So Kevin Yackle is spectacular, has his own lab at UCSF.
凯文·亚克尔（Kevin Yackle）非常出色，在加州大学旧金山分校（UCSF）拥有自己的实验室。
And the work that I'm familiar with from Kevin is worth mentioning now, or I'll ask you to mention it, which is this reciprocal relationship between brain state, where we could even say emotional state, and breathing.
我熟悉的凯文的工作现在值得一提，或者我会请你提一下，这就是大脑状态（我们甚至可以说情绪状态）和呼吸之间的相互关系。
And I'd love to get your thoughts on how breathing interacts with other things in the brain.
我很想听听您对呼吸如何与大脑中其他事物相互作用的想法。
You've beautifully described how breathing controls the lungs, the diaphragm, and the interactions between oxygen and carbon dioxide, and so forth.
您精美地描述了呼吸如何控制肺部、隔膜以及氧气和二氧化碳之间的相互作用等等。
But as we know, when we get stressed, our breathing changes.
但众所周知，当我们感到压力时，我们的呼吸会发生变化。
When we're happy and relaxed, our breathing changes.
当我们快乐和放松时，我们的呼吸就会改变。
But also if we change our breathing, we in some sense can adjust our internal state.
但如果我们改变呼吸，在某种意义上我们也可以调整我们的内部状态。
What is the relationship between brain state and breathing?
大脑状态和呼吸之间有什么关系？
And if you would, because I know you have a particular love of one particular aspect of this, what is the relationship between brain rhythms, oscillations, if you will, and breathing?
如果你愿意的话，因为我知道你特别喜欢其中的一个特定方面，那么大脑节律、振荡（如果你愿意的话）和呼吸之间的关系是什么？
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
This is a topic which has really intrigued me over the past decade.
这是过去十年来我真正感兴趣的一个话题。
I would say before that, I was in my silo just interested about how the rhythm of breathing is generated and didn't really pay much attention to this other stuff.
我想说的是，在那之前，我在我的筒仓里只是对呼吸节奏是如何产生的感兴趣，并没有真正关注其他的东西。
For some reason I got interested in it.
出于某种原因，我对它产生了兴趣。
And I think it was triggered by an article in The New York Times about mindfulness.
我认为这是由《纽约时报》上一篇关于正念的文章引发的。
Now, believe it or not, although I had lived in California for 20 years at that time, I'd never heard of mindfulness.
不管你信不信，尽管我当时在加利福尼亚州生活了 20 年，但我从未听说过正念。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
It's staggering how isolated you could be from the real world.
你与现实世界的隔离程度令人震惊。
And I googled it, and there was a mindfulness institute at UCLA and they were giving courses in meditation.
我用谷歌搜索了一下，加州大学洛杉矶分校有一个正念学院，他们正在教授冥想课程。
So I said, "Oh, this is great because I can now see whether or not the breathing part of meditation has anything to do with the purported effects of meditation." So I signed up for the course, and as I joked to you before, I had two goals.
所以我说，“哦，这太棒了，因为我现在可以看到冥想的呼吸部分是否与冥想的所谓效果有关。”所以我报名了这门课程，正如我之前和你开玩笑的那样，我有两个目标。
One was to see whether or not breathing had an effect, and the other was to levitate.
一是看呼吸有没有效果，二是悬浮。
Because I grew up in all these kung fu things, and all the monks could levitate when they meditated.
因为我是在所有这些功夫事物中长大的，所有的和尚在冥想时都可以悬浮。
So why not?
那么为什么不呢？
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
We have a motto in the lab.
我们实验室有一句座右铭。
You can't do anything interesting if you're afraid of failing.
如果你害怕失败，你就无法做任何有趣的事情。
And if I failed to levitate, well at least I tried and I should tell you now, I still haven't done it yet.
如果我未能悬浮，那么至少我尝试过，我现在应该告诉你，我还没有做到。
But I haven't given up.
但我还没有放弃。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yet.
然而。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
Yet.
然而。
I haven't given up.
我还没有放弃。
So I took this course in mindfulness and it became apparent to me that the breathing part was actually critical.
所以我参加了正念课程，我发现呼吸部分实际上很重要。
It wasn't simply a distraction or a focus.
这不仅仅是一种干扰或焦点。
They could have had you move your index finger to the same effect, but really believe that the breathing part was involved.
他们可以让你移动食指来达到同样的效果，但他们确实相信呼吸部分也参与其中。
Now, I'm not an unbiased observer.
现在，我不是一个公正的观察者。
So the question is how can I demonstrate that.
所以问题是我如何证明这一点。
I didn't feel competent to do experiments in humans.
我觉得自己没有能力在人体上做实验。
And I didn't feel like I designed the right experiments in humans, but I felt maybe I can study this in rodents.
我觉得我在人类身上设计的实验并不正确，但我觉得也许我可以在啮齿类动物身上进行研究。
So we got this idea that we are going to teach rodents to meditate, and that's laughable.
所以我们想到了要教啮齿类动物冥想，这是可笑的。
But we said, "But if we can, then we can actually study how this happens." So believe it or not, I was able to get a sort of a startup grant, an R21 from NCCIH, that's the National Complementary Medicine Institute.
但我们说，“但是如果可以的话，我们就可以真正研究这是如何发生的。”不管你信不信，我从 NCCIH（即国家补充医学研究所）获得了某种启动资金，即 R21。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
A wonderful institute, I should mention; our government puts major tax dollars toward studies of things like meditation, breathwork, supplements, herbs, acupuncture.
我应该提一下，这是一个很棒的机构；我们的政府将主要税收资金用于冥想、呼吸、补充剂、草药、针灸等研究。
This is, I think, not well known.
我认为，这一点并不为人所知。
And it's an incredible thing that our government does that.
我们的政府这样做是一件令人难以置信的事情。
And I think it deserves a nod and more funding.
我认为它应该得到认可和更多的资金。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
I totally agree with you.
我完全同意你的观点。
I think that it's the kind of thing that many of us, including many scientists, think is too "woo woo" and unsubstantiated.
我认为我们许多人，包括许多科学家，都认为这种事情太过“呜呜”且未经证实。
But we're learning more and more.
但我们正在学习越来越多的东西。
We used to laugh at neuroimmunology, that the nervous system didn't have anything to do with the immune system.
我们曾经嘲笑神经免疫学，认为神经系统与免疫系统没有任何关系。
And pain itself can influence your immune system.
疼痛本身会影响您的免疫系统。
I mean, there are all these things that we're learning that we used to dismiss.
我的意思是，我们正在了解到所有这些我们过去常常忽视的事情。
And I think there's, there's real nuggets to be learned here.
我认为这里有真正值得学习的东西。
So they went out in the limb and they funded this particular project, and now I'm going to leap ahead because for three years we threw stuff up against the wall that didn't work.
所以他们全力以赴，资助了这个特殊的项目，现在我要向前迈进，因为三年来我们把一些不起作用的东西扔到墙上。
And recently we had a major breakthrough.
最近我们取得了重大突破。
We found a protocol by which we can get mice to breathe slowly, awake mice to breathe slowly.
我们找到了一个方案，可以让小鼠缓慢呼吸，让清醒的小鼠缓慢呼吸。
I won't tell you.
我不会告诉你。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Normally they don't breathe slowly.
通常他们的呼吸并不缓慢。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
No. In other words, whatever their normal breath is, we could slow it down by a factor of 10, and they're fine doing that.
不。换句话来说，无论他们的正常呼吸是什么，我们都可以将其速度减慢 10 倍，而且他们很乐意这样做。
So we could do that for 30 minutes a day for four weeks, like a breath practice.
所以我们可以每天这样做 30 分钟，持续四个星期，就像呼吸练习一样。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do they levitate?
它们会悬浮吗？
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
We haven't measured that yet.
我们还没有测量过。
I would say a priori.
我想说的是先验的。
We haven't seen them floating to the top of their cage, but we haven't weighed them.
我们没有看到它们漂浮到笼子顶部，但我们也没有给它们称重。
Maybe they weigh less.
也许它们的重量更轻。
Maybe levitation is graded.
也许悬浮是分级的。
And so maybe if you weigh less, it's sort of partial levitation.
所以如果你的体重减轻了，也许这就是一种部分悬浮的感觉。
In any case, we then tested them, and we had control animals, mice, where we did everything the same except the manipulation we made did not slow down their breathing, but they went through everything else.
无论如何，我们随后对它们进行了测试，我们有对照动物，小鼠，我们做的一切都相同，除了我们所做的操作没有减慢它们的呼吸，但它们经历了其他一切。
We then put them through a standard fear conditioning, which we did with my colleague Michael Fanselow, who's one of the real gurus of fear.
然后我们让他们接受标准的恐惧调节，这是我们和我的同事迈克尔·范斯洛一起做的，他是真正的恐惧大师之一。
And we measured, a standard test is to put mice in a condition where their concerned they'll receive a shock, and their response is that they freeze, and the measure of how fearful they are is how long they freeze.
我们进行了测量，标准测试是将小鼠置于担心会受到电击的状态，它们的反应是冻结，衡量它们恐惧程度的标准是冻结的时间。
This is well validated, and it's way above my pay grade to describe the validity of the test.
这是经过充分验证的，并且它远远高于我的工资等级来描述测试的有效性。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
But it's very valid.
但这是非常有效的。
The control mice had a freezing time, which was just the same as ordinary mice would have.
对照组小鼠的冻结时间与普通小鼠相同。
The ones that went through our protocol froze much, much less.
那些通过我们协议的人冻结的情况要少得多。
According to Michael, the degree to which they were showed less freezing was as much as if there was a major manipulation in the amygdala, which is a part of the brain that's important in fear processing.
根据迈克尔的说法，他们表现出的冰冷程度减轻了，就好像杏仁核受到了重大操纵一样，杏仁核是大脑中处理恐惧的重要部分。
It's a staggering change.
这是一个惊人的变化。
The problem we have now is the grant ran out of money.
我们现在面临的问题是拨款用完了。
The postdoc working on it left, and now we have to try and piece together everything, but the data is spectacular.
研究它的博士后离开了，现在我们必须尝试将所有内容拼凑起来，但数据非常惊人。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, I think it's, I'll just pause you for a moment there because I think that, you know, you're talking about a rodent study, but I think the benefits of doing rodent studies are that you can get deep into mechanism.
嗯，我想是的，我会在这里暂停一下，因为我认为，你知道，你正在谈论啮齿动物研究，但我认为进行啮齿动物研究的好处是你可以深入了解机制。
And for people that might think, "Well, we've known that meditation has these benefits, why do you need to get mechanistic science?" I think that one thing that's important for people to remember is that, first of all, as many people as one might think are meditating out there or doing breathwork, a far, far, far greater number of people are not, right?
对于那些可能会想的人来说，“好吧，我们已经知道冥想有这些好处，为什么你需要获得机械科学呢？”我认为人们要记住的一件重要的事情是，首先，正如人们想象的那样，有很多人在外面冥想或做呼吸，但实际上没有的人要多得多，对吗？
I mean, the majority of people don't take any time to do dedicated breathwork nor meditate.
我的意思是，大多数人不会花时间专门进行呼吸或冥想。
So whatever can incentivize people would be wonderful.
所以任何能够激励人们的事情都是很棒的。
But the other thing is that it's never really been clear to me just how much meditation is required for a real effect.
但另一件事是，我从来都不清楚需要多少冥想才能产生真正的效果。
Meaning a practical effect.
意思是实际效果。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
People say 30 minutes a day, 20 minutes a day, once a week, twice a week.
人们说每天30分钟，每天20分钟，每周一次，每周两次。
Same thing with breathwork.
呼吸也一样。
Finding minimum or effective thresholds for changing neural circuitry is what I think is the holy grail of all these practices.
我认为找到改变神经回路的最小或有效阈值是所有这些实践的圣杯。
And that's only going to be determined by the sorts of mechanistic studies that you describe.
这只能由你所描述的各种机制研究来决定。
So this is wonderful.
所以这太棒了。
I do hope the work gets completed, and we can talk about ways that we can ensure that that happens.
我确实希望这项工作能够完成，我们可以讨论如何确保实现这一目标。
But-
但是——
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
Let me add one thing to what you're saying, Andrew.
让我在你所说的基础上补充一件事，安德鲁。
One of the issues I think for a lot of people is that there's a placebo effect that is in humans.
我认为对于很多人来说，问题之一是人类存在安慰剂效应。
They can respond to something even though the mechanism has nothing to do with what the intervention is.
即使该机制与干预内容无关，他们也可以对某些事情做出反应。
And so it's easy to say that the meditative response has a big component, which is a placebo effect.
所以很容易说冥想反应有一个很大的组成部分，那就是安慰剂效应。
My mice don't believe in the placebo effect.
我的老鼠不相信安慰剂效应。
And so if we could show there's a bonafide effect in mice, it is convincing in ways that no matter how many human experiments you did, the control for the placebo effect is extremely difficult in humans; in mice, it's a nonissue.
因此，如果我们能够证明小鼠身上存在真正的效应，那么无论你做了多少人体实验，在人类中控制安慰剂效应都是极其困难的；对于老鼠来说，这不是问题。
So I think that in of itself would be a enormous message to send.
所以我认为这本身就是一个需要传达的巨大信息。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Excellent and indeed a better point.
非常好，确实是一个更好的点。
I think a 30-minute-a-day meditation in these mice, if I understand correctly, the meditation, we don't know what they're thinking about.
我认为这些老鼠每天进行 30 分钟的冥想，如果我理解正确的话，冥想时，我们不知道它们在想什么。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
Well, it's breath practice, really.
嗯，这确实是呼吸练习。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
So it's breath practice.
所以这是呼吸练习。
So they're, because we don't, presumably they're not thinking about their third eye center, lotus position, levitation, whatever it is, they're not instructed as to what to do.
所以他们，因为我们不这样做，大概他们没有考虑他们的第三只眼中心，莲花位置，悬浮，无论是什么，他们没有被指示要做什么。
And if they were, they probably wouldn't do it anyway.
如果他们是的话，他们可能无论如何都不会这样做。
So 30 minutes a day in which breathing is deliberately slowed or is slowed relative to their normal patterns of breathing.
因此，每天 30 分钟，故意减慢呼吸或相对于正常呼吸模式减慢呼吸。
Got it.
知道了。
What was the frequency of sighing during that 30 minutes?
这30分钟内叹息的频率是多少？
Unclear.
不清楚。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
We don't know yet.
我们还不知道。
Okay.
好的。
Well no, we have the data.
好吧，不，我们有数据。
We just, we're analyzing the data.
我们只是在分析数据。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
To be determined, or to be announced at some point.
有待确定，或在某个时候宣布。
So the fear centers are altered in some way that creates a shorter fear response to a foot shock.
因此，恐惧中心会以某种方式发生改变，从而缩短对足部震动的恐惧反应。
What are some other examples that you are aware of from working your laboratory or work in other laboratories, for that matter, about interactions between breathing and brain state or emotional state?
就此而言，您在自己的实验室或其他实验室工作中还了解到哪些关于呼吸与大脑状态或情绪状态之间相互作用的其他例子？
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
So this gets back to our prior conversation.
这又回到了我们之前的谈话。
I sort of went off on that tangent.
我有点偏离了这个切线。
I think we need to think separately of the effect of volitional changes of breathing on emotion versus the effect of brain state on breathing.
我认为我们需要分别考虑呼吸的意志变化对情绪的影响和大脑状态对呼吸的影响。
So the effect of brain state on breathing, like when you're stressed, is a effect presumably originating in higher centers, if I can use that term, affecting breathing.
因此，大脑状态对呼吸的影响，就像当你感到压力时，可能是一种源自更高中心的影响，如果我可以使用这个术语的话，影响呼吸。
It's, the reciprocal is that when you change breathing, it affects your emotional state.
相反，当你改变呼吸时，它会影响你的情绪状态。
I think of those two things as different that may ultimately be tied together.
我认为这两件事是不同的，但最终可能会联系在一起。
So there's a landmark paper published in the '50s where they stimulate it in the amygdala of cats.
五十年代发表了一篇具有里程碑意义的论文，他们在猫的杏仁核中刺激了它。
And depending on where they stimulated, they got profound changes in breathing.
根据刺激的部位，他们的呼吸发生了深刻的变化。
There's every pattern of breathing could possibly imagine.
有你能想象到的每一种呼吸模式。
They found a site in the amygdala which could produce that.
他们在杏仁核中发现了一个可以产生这种物质的位点。
So there's clearly a powerful descending effect coming from the amygdala, which is a major site for processing emotion, fear, stress and whatnot that can affect breathing.
因此，杏仁核显然具有强大的下降效应，杏仁核是处理情绪、恐惧、压力以及其他可能影响呼吸的因素的主要部位。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
And clearly we have volitional control over breathing.
显然我们对呼吸有意志控制。
So we have profound effects there.
所以我们在那里产生了深远的影响。
Now I should say about emotional control over breathing, I need to segue into talking about locked-in syndrome.
现在我应该谈谈情绪对呼吸的控制，我需要继续谈论锁定综合症。
Locked-in syndrome is a devastating lesion that happens in a part of the brain stem where signals that controlled muscles are transmitted.
锁定综合症是一种毁灭性的病变，发生在脑干的一部分，控制肌肉的信号在这里传输。
So the fibers coming from your motor cortex go down to this part of the brain stem, which is called the ventral pons.
因此，来自运动皮层的纤维会向下到达脑干的这一部分，即所谓的腹侧脑桥。
And if there's a stroke there, it can damage these pathways.
如果那里发生中风，就会损害这些通路。
What happens in individuals who have locked-in syndrome is they lose all volitional movement except lateral movement of the eyes and maybe the ability to blink.
患有锁定综合症的人会发生的情况是，除了眼睛的横向运动和眨眼的能力之外，他们失去了所有的意志运动。
The reason they're able to still blink and move their eyes is that those control centers are rostral, or closer to, are not interrupted.
它们仍然能够眨眼和移动眼睛的原因是这些控制中心位于喙部，或更接近喙部，不会受到干扰。
In other words, the interruption is below that.
换句话说，中断低于该值。
They continue to breathe because the centers for breathing don't require that volitional command.
他们继续呼吸，因为呼吸中枢不需要意志命令。
In any case, they're below that.
无论如何，他们都低于这个水平。
So they're fine.
所以他们很好。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
So these people continue to breathe, normal intelligence, but they can't move.
所以这些人继续呼吸，智力正常，但是却无法动弹。
There's a great book called "The Diving Bell and the Butterfly" about a young man who had ...
有一本很棒的书，名叫《潜水钟与蝴蝶》，讲的是一个年轻人……
this happens to, and he describes his life and it's a real testament to the human condition that he's ...
这种情况发生了，他描述了他的生活，这真实地证明了他的人类状况......
does this.
这样做。
It's a remarkable book, It's a short book.
这是一本非凡的书，也是一本短小的书。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Did he write the book by blinking to his translator?
他是通过对翻译眨眼来写这本书的吗？
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
He did it by blinking to his caretaker.
他通过向他的看护者眨眼来做到这一点。
It's pretty amazing.
这真是太神奇了。
And there was a movie, which I've never seen with Javier Bourdain as the protagonist, but the book, I highly recommend this to anyone to read.
还有一部电影，我从未看过以哈维尔·布尔登为主角的电影，但我强烈推荐这本书给任何人阅读。
So I had colleagues studying an individual had locked-in syndrome, and this patient breathes very robotically, totally consistent, very regular.
所以我有同事研究一个患有锁定综合症的人，这个病人的呼吸非常机械化，完全一致，非常有规律。
They gave the patient a low oxygen mixture to breathe.
他们给病人提供低氧混合物呼吸。
Ventilation went up, a CO2 mixture to breathe, ventilation went up.
通风量上升，呼吸二氧化碳混合物，通风量上升。
So all the regulatory apparatus for breathing was there.
所以所有呼吸调节装置都在那里。
They asked the patient to hold his breath or to breathe faster.
他们要求病人屏住呼吸或呼吸加快。
Nothing happened.
什么也没发生。
Just, the patient recognized the command but couldn't change it.
只是，病人认可了这个命令，却无法改变它。
And all of a sudden the patient's breathing changed considerably.
突然之间，病人的呼吸发生了很大的变化。
And they said to their patient, "What happened?" They said, "You told the joke.
他们对病人说：“发生了什么事？”他们说：“你讲了这个笑话。
And I laughed."
我笑了。”
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
And they went back.
他们就回去了。
Whenever they told the joke that the patient found funny, the patient's breathing pattern changed.
每当他们讲病人觉得好笑的笑话时，病人的呼吸模式就会改变。
And your breathing pattern when you laugh is inhale.
你笑时的呼吸方式是吸气。
You go, "Haha haha." But it's also very distinctive.
你就说：“哈哈哈哈。”但它也很有特色。
We have some neuroscience colleagues, who will go unnamed, who if you heard them laugh 50 yards away, you know exactly who they are.
我们有一些神经科学同事，他们的名字不详，如果你听到他们在 50 码外大笑，你就知道他们是谁。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well I'll name him.
好吧，我会命名他。
Eric Kandel.
埃里克·坎德尔。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
For one.
就其一而言。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Has an inspiratory laugh.
有着吸气般的笑声。
Yeah, he's famous for a As opposed to a haha.
是的，他因“而不是哈哈”而出名。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
Exactly.
正是如此。
exactly.
确切地。
So the it's very ...
所以这非常...
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
So it's very stereotyped, but it's maintained in these people who lose volitional control of breathing.
所以它是非常刻板的，但它仍然存在于那些失去呼吸自主控制的人身上。
So there's an emotive component controlling your breathing, which has nothing to do with your volitional control, and it goes down to a different pathway because it's not disrupted by this locked-in syndrome.
因此，有一种情绪成分控制着你的呼吸，这与你的意志控制无关，并且它进入了不同的途径，因为它没有受到这种锁定综合症的干扰。
If you look at motor control of the face, we have the volitional control of the face, but we also have emotional control of the face, which most of us can't control.
如果你看看面部的运动控制，我们可以对面部进行意志控制，但我们也可以对面部进行情感控制，这是我们大多数人无法控制的。
So when we look at another person, we're able to read a lot about what their emotional state is.
因此，当我们观察另一个人时，我们能够了解他们的情绪状态。
And that's a lot about how primates, humans, communicate.
这就是关于灵长类动物和人类如何交流的很多内容。
And you have people who are good deceivers.
还有一些善于欺骗的人。
Probably used car salesmen, poker players, or now poker players have tells.
可能二手车销售员、扑克玩家或者现在的扑克玩家都有讲述。
But many of them now wear dark glasses, because a lot of the tells you blink or whatnot.
但他们中的许多人现在都戴着墨镜，因为很多都告诉你眨眼或诸如此类的事情。
PART 2 OF 4 ENDS Andrew Huberman:
第 2 部分（共 4 部分）结束 Andrew Huberman：
Pupil sizes.
瞳孔大小。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
Pupil size.
瞳孔大小。
Pupil size is a tell, which is an autonomic function, not a skeletal muscle function.
瞳孔大小是一个标志，这是一种自主功能，而不是骨骼肌功能。
But we have all these skeletal muscles which we're controlling, which give us away.
但我们拥有我们正在控制的所有这些骨骼肌，它们暴露了我们。
I've tried to get my imaging friends to image some of the great actors that we have in Los Angeles.
我试图让我的影像朋友们为我们在洛杉矶拥有的一些伟大演员拍摄影像。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You mean brain imagers?
你是说大脑成像仪吗？
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
Brain imagers.
脑成像仪。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
I'm sorry.
对不起。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, that's all right.
不，没关系。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
Yeah, brain images, because I think when I ask you to smile, I could tell that you're not happy, that you're smiling because I asked you to smile.
是的，大脑图像，因为我想当我要求你微笑时，我可以看出你不高兴，你微笑是因为我要求你微笑。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think you're about to crack a joke, but we're all friends.
我想你是在开玩笑，但我们都是朋友。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
No, I'm not ...
不，我不是...
When you see a picture, like at a birthday and whatnot and say "cheese," you could tell that at least half of the people are not happy they're saying cheese.
当你看到一张照片时，比如在生日之类的场合，说“奶酪”，你可以看出，至少有一半的人不高兴他们说的是奶酪。
Whereas a great actor, when they're able to dissemble, in the fact that they're sad or they're happy, you believe it.
而一个伟大的演员，当他们能够掩饰他们悲伤或快乐的事实时，你就会相信。
They're not faking it.
他们没有假装。
That's great acting.
这演技太棒了
And I don't think everyone could do that.
而且我不认为每个人都能做到这一点。
I think that the individuals are able to do that, have some connection to the parts of their emotive control system that the rest of us don't have.
我认为个人能够做到这一点，与他们的情绪控制系统的某些部分有一些我们其他人所没有的联系。
Maybe they develop it through training and maybe not.
也许他们通过培训培养了这种能力，也许不是。
But I think that this can be imaged.
但我认为这是可以想象的。
So I would like to get one of these great actors in an imager and have them go through that, and then get a normal person and see whether or not they can emulate that.
所以我想让这些伟大的演员之一进入成像仪并让他们经历这一点，然后找一个普通人看看他们是否可以模仿。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
And I think you're going to find big differences in the way they control this emotive thing.
我认为你会发现他们控制这种情感事物的方式存在巨大差异。
So this emotive control of the facial muscles, I think is in large part similar to emotive control of breathing.
因此，我认为这种对面部肌肉的情绪控制在很大程度上类似于对呼吸的情绪控制。
So there's that emotive control and there's that volitional control and they're different.
所以有情感控制和意志控制，它们是不同的。
They're different.
他们是不同的。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
Now you asked me about the Yackle stuff.
现在你问我有关雅克尔的事情。
The Yackle paper had to do with ascending, that the effect of breathing on emotion.
雅克尔的论文与上升有关，即呼吸对情绪的影响。
What Kevin found was that there was a population of neurons in the pre-Bötzinger complex, that we're always looking to things that are projecting ultimately to motor neurons.
凯文发现，前博辛格复合体中有一群神经元，我们总是在寻找最终投射到运动神经元的东西。
He found the population of cells that projected to locus coeruleus.
他发现了投射到蓝斑的细胞群。
Locus coeruleus is one of those places in the brain that seemed to go everywhere.
蓝斑是大脑中似乎无处不在的地方之一。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's like a sprinkler system.
它就像一个自动喷水灭火系统。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
Exactly, and influence mood.
没错，而且影响心情。
And you've had a podcast about this.
你有一个关于这个的播客。
There's a lot of stuff going on with the locus coeruleus.
蓝斑发生了很多事情。
So you get into the locus coeruleus, you can now spray information out throughout the entire brain.
所以你进入了蓝斑，你现在可以将信息喷射到整个大脑。
He found specific cells that projected from pre-Bötzinger to locus coeruleus, and that these cells are inspiratory modulated.
他发现了从波青格前投射到蓝斑的特定细胞，并且这些细胞受到吸气调节。
Now, it's been known for a long time, since the '60s, that if you look in the locus coeruleus of cats when they're awake, you find many neurons that have respiratory modulation.
自 20 世纪 60 年代以来，人们早已知道，如果你观察猫清醒时的蓝斑，你会发现许多神经元具有呼吸调节功能。
No one paid much attention to him.
没有人太注意他。
Why bother?
何苦呢？
Not why bother paying attention, but why would the brain bother to have these inputs?
不是为什么要费心去注意，而是为什么大脑要费心去接受这些输入？
So what Kevin did with Lindsay Schwarz and Liqun Luo's lab, is they killed, ablated, those cells going to locus coeruleus from pre-Bötzinger.
Kevin 对 Lindsay Schwarz 和 Liqun Luo 的实验室所做的就是杀死、消融这些细胞，将这些细胞从前 Bötzinger 转移到蓝斑。
And the animals became calmer, and their EEG levels changed in ways that are indicative that they became calmer.
动物变得更加平静，它们的脑电图水平发生变化，表明它们变得更加平静。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And as I recall, they didn't just become calmer, but they weren't really capable of high arousal states.
我记得，他们不仅变得更加平静，而且还没有真正能够达到高度兴奋的状态。
They were kind of flat.
它们有点平坦。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
I don't think we really pursued that in the paper.
我认为我们并没有在报纸上真正追求这一点。
And so we'd have to ask John Huguenard about that.
所以我们必须向约翰·雨格纳德询问此事。
But I-
但我——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
He's on the other side of my lab, so we'll ask him.
他在我实验室的另一边，所以我们会问他。
But nonetheless, that beautifully illustrates how there is a bidirectional control of-
但尽管如此，这完美地说明了如何进行双向控制——
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
Well, that's ascending.
嗯，这是上升的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Emotion.
情感。
Well, no, the two stories of the locked-in syndrome, plus the Yackle paper, shows that emotional states influence breathing and breathing influences emotional states.
嗯，不，锁定综合症的两个故事，加上雅克尔的论文，表明情绪状态影响呼吸，呼吸也影响情绪状态。
But you mentioned inspiration, which I always call inhalation, but people will follow.
但你提到灵感，我总是称之为吸入，但人们会追随。
No, that's fine.
不，没关系。
Those are interchangeable.
这些是可以互换的。
People can follow that.
人们可以遵循这一点。
There's some interesting papers from Noam Sobel's group, and from a number of other groups, that as we inhale, or right after we inhale, the brain is actually more alert and capable of storing information than during exhales, which I find incredible.
诺姆·索贝尔（Noam Sobel）小组以及其他许多小组发表了一些有趣的论文，当我们吸气时或吸气后，大脑实际上比呼气时更加警觉并且能够存储信息，我觉得这令人难以置信。
But it also makes sense.
但这也是有道理的。
I'm able to see things far better when my eyes are open than when my eyelids are closed, for that matter.
就此而言，当我睁开眼睛时，我能比闭上眼睑时看得更清楚。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
Maybe.
也许吧。
I don't doubt ...
我不怀疑...
Noam's work is great.
诺姆的工作很棒。
Let me backtrack a bit because I want people to understand that we're talking about breathing affecting emotional cognitive state.
让我回溯一下，因为我希望人们明白我们正在谈论呼吸影响情绪认知状态。
It's not simply coming from pre-Bötzinger.
它不仅仅是来自博辛格之前。
There are at least ...
至少有...
Well, there are several other sites.
嗯，还有其他几个网站。
And let me ...
让我...
I need to go through that.
我需要经历一下。
One is olfaction.
一是嗅觉。
So when you're breathing, normal breathing, you're inhaling and exhaling.
所以当你呼吸时，正常的呼吸，你在吸气和呼气。
This is creating signals coming from the nasal mucosa that is going back into the olfactory bulb that's respiratory modulated.
这会产生来自鼻粘膜的信号，该信号会返回到呼吸调节的嗅球中。
And the olfactory bulb has some profound influence and projections through many parts of the brain.
嗅球对大脑的许多部分都有一些深远的影响和投射。
So there's a signal arising from this rhythmic moving of air in and out of the nose that's going into the brain that has contained in it a respiratory modulation.
因此，空气有节奏地进出鼻子会产生一个信号，该信号进入大脑，其中包含呼吸调节。
So that signal is there.
所以那个信号就在那里。
The brain doesn't have to be using it, but when it's discriminating odor and whatnot, that's riding on a oscillation, which is respiratory related.
大脑不一定要使用它，但当它辨别气味等时，就会产生与呼吸相关的振荡。
Another potential source is the vagus nerve.
另一个潜在的来源是迷走神经。
The vagus nerve is a major nerve, which is containing afferents from all of the viscera.
迷走神经是一条主要神经，包含来自所有内脏的传入神经。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Afferents just being a-
传入只是-
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
A signal.
一个信号。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Signals too.
信号也。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
Yeah, signals from the viscera.
是的，来自内脏的信号。
It also has signals coming from the brain stem down, which are called efferents, but it's getting major signals from the lung, gut.
它也有来自脑干向下的信号，这些信号被称为传出神经，但它从肺部和肠道获取主要信号。
And this is going up into the brain stem, so there.
这会上升到脑干，所以就在那里。
There are very powerful receptors in the lung that are responding to the lung volume, the lung stretch.
肺部有非常强大的受体，它们对肺容量和肺伸展度做出反应。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Those are baroreceptors.
这些是压力感受器。
Oh, sorry, well, we have a number like-
哦，抱歉，好吧，我们有一个这样的号码——
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
The pressure receptors.
压力感受器。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Like the Piezo receptors of this year's Nobel Prize.
就像今年诺贝尔奖的压电受体一样。
Yeah.
是的。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
Yeah, so they're responding to the expansion and relaxation of the lung.
是的，所以它们对肺部的扩张和松弛做出反应。
And so if you record from the vagus nerve, you'll see that there's a huge respiratory modulation due to the mechanical changes in the lung.
因此，如果您从迷走神经进行记录，您会发现由于肺部的机械变化而产生了巨大的呼吸调节。
Now, why that is of interest is that for some forms of refractory depression, electrostimulation of the vagus nerve can provide tremendous relief.
现在，人们感兴趣的是，对于某些形式的难治性抑郁症，迷走神经的电刺激可以提供巨大的缓解。
Why this is the case still remains to be determined, but it's clear that signals in the vagus nerve, at least artificial signals in the vagus nerve, can have a positive effect on reducing depression.
为什么会出现这种情况仍有待确定，但很明显，迷走神经中的信号，至少是迷走神经中的人工信号，可以对减少抑郁症产生积极作用。
So it's not a leap to think that under normal circumstances, that that rhythm coming in from the vagus nerve is playing a role in normal processing.
因此，在正常情况下，来自迷走神经的节律在正常处理中发挥着作用，这并不是一个跳跃式的想法。
Okay, let me continue.
好吧，让我继续。
Carbon dioxide and oxygen levels.
二氧化碳和氧气水平。
Now, under normal circumstances, your oxygen levels are fine.
现在，在正常情况下，您的氧气水平很好。
And unless you go to altitude, they don't really change very much.
除非你去到高海拔地区，否则它们实际上不会发生太大变化。
But your CO2 levels can change quite a bit with even a relatively small change in your overall breathing.
但即使整体呼吸发生相对较小的变化，您的二氧化碳水平也会发生相当大的变化。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
That's going to change your pH level.
这会改变你的 pH 值。
I have a colleague, Alicia Meuret, who is working with patients who are anxious.
我有一位同事艾丽西亚·莫雷 (Alicia Meuret)，她正在与焦虑的患者一起工作。
And many of them hyperventilate.
他们中的许多人换气过度。
And as a result of that hyperventilation, their carbon dioxide levels are low.
由于过度换气，他们的二氧化碳含量很低。
And she has developed a therapeutic treatment where she trains these people to breathe slower and to restore their CO2 levels back to normal, and she gets relief in their anxiety.
她开发了一种治疗方法，训练这些人放慢呼吸速度，将二氧化碳水平恢复到正常水平，他们的焦虑得到缓解。
So CO2 levels, which are not going to affect brain function on a breath by breath level, although it does fluctuate breath by breath, but sort of a continuous background, can change.
因此，二氧化碳水平不会随着呼吸水平的变化而影响大脑功能，尽管它确实会随着呼吸的变化而波动，但在某种程度上是一个连续的背景，它可能会发生变化。
And if it's changed chronically, we know that highly elevated levels of CO2 can produce panic attacks.
如果它长期发生变化，我们知道二氧化碳浓度过高会引起恐慌。
And we don't know the degree to that gets exacerbated by people who have a panic attack to the degree to which their ambient CO2 levels are affecting their degree of discomfort.
我们不知道惊恐发作的人会在多大程度上加剧这种情况，以至于周围的二氧化碳水平会影响他们的不适程度。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What about people who tend to be too calm, meaning they're feeling sleepy, they're underbreathing, as opposed to overbreathing?
那些过于平静的人，即他们感到困倦、呼吸不足而不是呼吸过度的人呢？
Is there any knowledge of what the status of CO2 is in their system?
是否了解他们系统中二氧化碳的状况？
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
I don't know, which doesn't mean there's no knowledge, but I'm unaware.
我不知道，这并不意味着没有知识，但我不知道。
But that's blissfully unaware.
但这是幸福的不自知。
I've not looked at that literature, so I don't know.
我没有看过那些文献，所以我不知道。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I have a feeling most of the scientific literature around breathing in humans that I'm aware of relates to these stress states because they're a little bit easier to study in the lab, whereas people feeling understimulated or exhausted all the time, it's a complicated thing to measure.
我感觉我所知道的大多数有关人类呼吸的科学文献都与这些压力状态有关，因为它们在实验室中更容易研究，而人们一直感到刺激不足或疲惫不堪，这是一件很难测量的事情。
You can do it, but it's not as straightforward.
您可以做到，但并不那么简单。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
Well, CO2 is easy to measure.
嗯，二氧化碳很容易测量。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But in terms of the measures for feeling fatigue, they're somewhat indirect, whereas stress, we can get at pulse rates and HRV, and things of that sort.
但就感觉疲劳的衡量标准而言，它们有些间接，而压力，我们可以通过脉搏率和 HRV 等来获得。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
Well, I imagine that these devices that we're all wearing will soon be able to measure.
嗯，我想我们都佩戴的这些设备很快就能进行测量。
Well now they can measure oxygen levels, oxygen saturation.
现在他们可以测量氧含量、氧饱和度。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Which is amazing.
这太棒了。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
Yeah, but will pretty much stay above 90% unless there's some pathology or you go to altitude.
是的，但基本上会保持在 90% 以上，除非有一些病理情况或者你去了高海拔地区。
But CO2 levels vary quite a bit.
但二氧化碳含量差异很大。
And in fact, because they vary, your body is so sensitive, the controller breathing, how much you breathe per minute, is determined in a very sensitive way by the CO2 level.
事实上，由于它们各不相同，您的身体非常敏感，控制器呼吸，您每分钟的呼吸量，以非常敏感的方式由二氧化碳水平决定。
So even a small change in your CO2 will have a significant effect on your ventilation.
因此，即使二氧化碳的微小变化也会对通气产生重大影响。
So this is another thing that not only changes your ventilation but affects your brain state.
因此，这是另一件事，不仅会改变您的通风，还会影响您的大脑状态。
Now another thing that could affect, how breathing practice can affect your emotional state, is simply the descending command, because breathing practice involves volitional control of your breathing and therefore there's a signal that's originating somewhere in your motor cortex.
现在，另一件可能影响呼吸练习如何影响你的情绪状态的事情就是下降命令，因为呼吸练习涉及对呼吸的意志控制，因此在你的运动皮层的某个地方有一个信号。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
Of course that's going to go down to pre-Bötzinger, but it's also going to send off collaterals to other places.
当然，这将追溯到博辛格之前，但它也会将抵押品发送到其他地方。
Those collaterals could obviously influence your emotional state.
这些附属品显然会影响你的情绪状态。
So we have quite a few different potential sources, none of them that are exclusive.
因此，我们有很多不同的潜在来源，但没有一个是排他性的。
There's an interesting paper which shows that if you block nasal breathing, you still see breathing-related oscillations in the brain.
有一篇有趣的论文表明，如果你阻止鼻呼吸，你仍然会在大脑中看到与呼吸相关的振荡。
And this is where I think the mechanism is occurring, is that these breathing-related oscillations in the brain, they're playing a role in signal processing.
我认为这就是发生机制的地方，这些与呼吸相关的大脑振荡在信号处理中发挥着作用。
And maybe should I talk a little bit about the role that oscillations may be playing in signal processing?
也许我应该谈谈振荡在信号处理中可能发挥的作用？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Definitely.
绝对是。
But before you do, I just want to ask you an intermediate question.
但在你这样做之前，我只想问你一个中间问题。
We've talked a lot about inhalation, inspiration and exhalation.
我们已经讨论了很多关于吸气、灵感和呼气的内容。
What about breath holds.
屏住呼吸怎么办。
In apnea, for instance, people are holding their breath, whether or not it's conscious or unconscious.
例如，在呼吸暂停时，人们会屏住呼吸，无论是有意识的还是无意识的。
They're holding their breath.
他们屏住呼吸。
What's known about breath holds in terms of how it might interact with brain state or oxygen CO2?
关于屏气如何与大脑状态或氧气 CO2 相互作用，我们了解多少？
And I'm particularly interested in how breath holds with lungs empty versus breath holds with lungs full might differ in terms of their impact on the brain.
我特别感兴趣的是，肺空时屏气与肺满时屏气对大脑的影响有何不同。
I'm not aware of any studies on this looking at a mechanistic level, but I find it really interesting.
我不知道有任何从机械层面进行的研究，但我发现它非常有趣。
And even if there are no studies, I'd love it if you'd care to speculate.
即使没有研究，如果你愿意推测，我也会很高兴。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
Well, one of the breath practices that intrigue me is where you basically hyperventilate for a minute and then hold your breath for as long as you can.
嗯，让我感兴趣的呼吸练习之一是你基本上过度换气一分钟，然后尽可能长时间地屏住呼吸。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Tummo style, Wim Hof style.
图莫风格，维姆霍夫风格。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We call it in the laboratory because, frankly, before tummo and before Wim, it was referred to as cyclic hyperventilation.
我们在实验室中称之为“周期性过度换气”，因为坦率地说，在 tummo 之前和 Wim 之前，它被称为“周期性过度换气”。
So it's basically followed by a breath hold.
所以基本上是屏住呼吸。
And that breath hold could be done with lungs full or lungs empty.
屏气可以在肺充满或肺空的情况下完成。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
So I had a long talk with some colleagues about what they might think the underlying mechanisms are, particularly for the breath hold.
因此，我与一些同事进行了长时间的交谈，讨论他们可能认为的潜在机制是什么，特别是屏气。
And I certainly envision that there's a component with respect to the presence or absence of that with rhythmicity in your cortex, which is having effect.
我当然可以想象，在你的皮质中，有一个与节律性的存在或不存在有关的成分，它正在发挥作用。
But the other thing with the hyperventilation, hypoventilation or the apnea, is your CO2 levels are going from low to high.
但与过度通气、通气不足或呼吸暂停有关的另一件事是，您的二氧化碳水平从低到高。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Anytime you're holding your breath?
任何时候你都屏住呼吸吗？
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
Anytime you're holding your breath.
任何时候只要你屏住呼吸。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
Okay.
好的。
And those are going to have a profound influence.
这些都将产生深远的影响。
Now, I have to talk about episodic hypoxia because there's a lot of work going on, particularly with Gordon Mitchell, the University of Florida, is doing some extraordinary work on episodic hypoxia.
现在，我必须谈谈间歇性缺氧，因为有很多工作正在进行，特别是佛罗里达大学的戈登·米切尔正在针对间歇性缺氧进行一些非凡的工作。
So in the '80s, David Millhorn did some really intriguing work.
因此，在 80 年代，David Millhorn 做了一些非常有趣的工作。
If I gave you a low oxygen mixture for a couple of minutes, your breathing level would go up, because you want to have more oxygen.
如果我给你提供低氧混合物几分钟，你的呼吸水平就会上升，因为你想要更多的氧气。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You're starving for air.
你渴望空气。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
No, you're starving for oxygen.
不，你缺氧了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
All right.
好吧。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
Okay.
好的。
And for a couple of minutes you go up, you reach some steady state level, not so hypoxic that you can't reach an equilibrium.
在你上升的几分钟内，你达到了某种稳态水平，不会缺氧到无法达到平衡的程度。
And then I give you room air again, your ventilation quickly relaxes back down to normal.
然后我再次给你室内空气，你的通风很快恢复正常。
If on the other hand, I gave you three minutes of hypoxia, five minutes of normoxia, three minutes of hypoxia, five minutes of normoxia, three minutes hypoxia, five minutes of normoxia-
另一方面，如果我给你三分钟缺氧，五分钟常氧，三分钟缺氧，五分钟常氧，三分钟缺氧，五分钟常氧——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Normoxia being normal?
含氧量正常吗？
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
Normal air.
正常空气。
Ventilation goes up, down, up, down, up, down, up, down.
通风量上升、下降、上升、下降、上升、下降、上升、下降。
After the last episode, your breathing comes down and doesn't continue to come down, but rises again and stays up for hours.
在最后一集之后，你的呼吸会减弱，并且不会继续减弱，而是会再次上升并持续几个小时。
This is well validated now.
这一点现在已经得到很好的验证。
This was originally done in animals, but in humans all the time.
这最初是在动物身上进行的，但一直在人类身上进行。
It seems to have profound benefit on motor function and cognitive function.
它似乎对运动功能和认知功能有深远的好处。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In what direction?
向什么方向发展？
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
Positive.
积极。
I've often toyed with the idea of getting a 5%, an 8% oxygen.
我经常考虑是否需要 5% 或 8% 的氧气。
Don't do this listeners.
听众不要这样做。
Getting an 8% oxygen tank by my desk when I'm writing a grant and doing like in "Blue Velvet" and going through the episodic hypoxia to improve my cognitive function.
当我写一份资助金时，我会在办公桌旁放一个 8% 的氧气瓶，像《蓝丝绒》中那样，通过间歇性缺氧来改善我的认知功能。
Certainly could use improvement when I'm writing grants.
当我写赠款时，当然可以进行改进。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But you could do this without the low oxygen.
但你可以在没有低氧的情况下做到这一点。
You could do this through breathwork, presumably.
想必你可以通过呼吸来做到这一点。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
It's hard to lower your oxygen enough.
很难将氧气降低到足够低的程度。
We're going in the experimental studies, they typically use 8% oxygen.
我们正在进行实验研究，他们通常使用 8% 的氧气。
It's hard to hold your breath long enough.
屏住呼吸足够长的时间是很困难的。
And there is another difference here: That is what's happening to your CO2 levels?
这里还有另一个区别：这就是你的二氧化碳水平发生了什么变化？
When you hold your breath, your oxygen levels are dropping, your CO2 levels are going up.
当您屏住呼吸时，您的氧气水平会下降，二氧化碳水平会上升。
When you are doing episodic hypoxia, your CO2 levels are going to stay pretty normal because you're still breathing.
当您发生间歇性缺氧时，您的二氧化碳水平将保持相当正常，因为您仍在呼吸。
It's just the oxygen levels are gone.
只是氧气含量消失了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So unlike normal conditions, which you described before, where oxygen is relatively constant and CO2 is fluctuating depending on emotional state and activity and things of that sort, in episodic hypoxia, CO2 is relatively constant, but you're varying the oxygen level coming into the system quite a bit?
因此，与您之前描述的正常情况不同，在正常情况下，氧气相对恒定，而二氧化碳根据情绪状态和活动等因素而波动，在间歇性缺氧中，二氧化碳相对恒定，但您对进入系统的氧气水平有很大的变化？
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
I would say CO2 is relatively constant, but it's not going to go in a direction which is going to be significantly far from normal.
我想说二氧化碳是相对稳定的，但它不会朝着远离正常水平的方向发展。
Whereas when you're holding your breath, you're going to become both hypoxic and hypercapnic at the same time.
而当你屏住呼吸时，你会同时缺氧和高碳酸血症。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We should explain to people what hypoxic and hypercapnic are because we haven't done that.
我们应该向人们解释什么是低氧和高碳酸血症，因为我们还没有这样做。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
Hypoxic, it's just the technical term for low levels of oxygen.
缺氧，只是氧气含量低的技术术语。
Hyper — or you could say hypoxic, low — hyper is high.
高——或者你可以说缺氧、低——高就是高。
So hyperoxia or hypocapnia, low CO2 or hypercapnia, high levels of CO2.
因此，高氧血症或低碳酸血症、低二氧化碳或高碳酸血症、高二氧化碳水平。
So when you're in episodic hypoxia, if anything, you're going to become hypocapnic, not hypercapnic.
因此，当您处于间歇性缺氧状态时，如果有的话，您会出现低碳酸血症，而不是高碳酸血症。
And that could play an influence on this.
这可能会对此产生影响。
One example that I remember, and Gordon will have to forgive me if I'm misquoting this, is they had a patient who had a stroke and had weakness in ankle flexion, excuse me, ankle extension — to extend the ankle.
我记得一个例子，如果我引用错了，戈登将不得不原谅我，他们有一位中风患者，脚踝弯曲无力，对不起，脚踝伸展 - 伸展脚踝。
And so they had the patient in a seat where they could measure ankle extension and then they measured it, and then they exposed the patient to episodic hypoxia and they measured again.
因此，他们让患者坐在可以测量脚踝伸展的座位上，然后进行测量，然后将患者暴露在间歇性缺氧中，然后再次进行测量。
The strength of the ankle extension went way up.
脚踝伸展的力量大大增加。
And so Gordon is looking at this, they're looking at this now for spinal cord rehab.
所以戈登正在研究这个，他们现在正在研究这个用于脊髓康复。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I imagine for all sorts of neuromuscular performance, it could be beneficial.
我想这对于各种神经肌肉的表现来说都是有益的。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
Yeah, Gordon is looking into athletic performance.
是的，戈登正在研究运动表现。
We have a project which we haven't been able to push to the next level, to do golf.
我们有一个项目，但未能将其提升到一个新的水平，那就是打高尔夫球。
So I think-
所以我认为——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Why golf?
为什么打高尔夫球？
Because you love golf.
因为你热爱高尔夫。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
Well, it's because it's motor performance, coordination.
嗯，因为它是运动性能、协调性。
So it's not simply running as fast as you can.
所以它不仅仅是尽可能快地运行。
It's coordination, concentration, a whole variety of things.
它是协调性、专注力以及各种各样的东西。
And so the idea would be to get a group of golfers and give them their placebo control.
所以我们的想法是让一群高尔夫球手给他们安慰剂对照。
So they don't know whether they're breathing a gas mixture, which is just normal air or hypoxic gas mixture, although they may be able to figure it out based on their response.
因此，他们不知道自己呼吸的气体混合物是正常空气还是低氧气体混合物，尽管他们可能能够根据自己的反应来判断。
Do it under controlled circumstances that do it into a net, measure their length of their drives, their dispersion and whatnot and see what happens.
在受控环境下进行，将其打入网中，测量它们的驱动长度、分散度等等，然后看看会发生什么。
Look, if we could find that this works for golfers, forget about cognitive function.
听着，如果我们能发现这对高尔夫球手有效，那么就忘掉认知功能吧。
We could sell this for unbelievable amounts of money.
我们可以以令人难以置信的价格出售它。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That sounds like a terrible idea.
这听起来是个糟糕的主意。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
By the way.
顺便说一句。
I'm not serious about selling it.
我不是认真的想卖掉它。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I know you're joking.
我知道你在开玩笑。
Maybe people should know that you are joking about that.
也许人们应该知道你是在开玩笑。
No, I think that anything that can improve cognitive and neuromuscular performance is going to be of interest for a wide range of both pathologic states like injury, TBI, et cetera.
不，我认为任何可以改善认知和神经肌肉表现的东西都会引起广泛的病理状态（如损伤、TBI 等）的兴趣。
I mean one of the most frequent questions I get is about recovery from concussion or traumatic brain injury.
我的意思是，我收到的最常见的问题之一是关于脑震荡或创伤性脑损伤的恢复。
A lot of people think sports, they think football, rugby, hockey.
很多人想到体育运动，他们想到足球、橄榄球、曲棍球。
But if you look at the statistics on traumatic brain injury, most of it is construction workers, car crashes, bicycle accidents.
但如果你看一下脑外伤的统计数据，大部分都是建筑工人、车祸、自行车事故。
The sports part of it is a tiny minuscule fraction of the total amount of traumatic brain injury out there.
运动部分仅占脑外伤总数的极小部分。
I think these protocols tested in the context of golf would be very interesting because of the constraints of the measures, as you mentioned.
我认为，正如您提到的，由于措施的限制，在高尔夫背景下测试的这些协议将非常有趣。
And it could be exported to a number of things.
它可以导出到很多东西。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I want to just try and imagine whether or not there is any kind of breathing pattern or breathwork, just to be direct about it, that even partially mimics what you described in terms of episodic hypoxia.
我想尝试想象是否存在任何类型的呼吸模式或呼吸，只是直接说明它，甚至部分模仿你所描述的阵发性缺氧。
I've done a lot of tummo, Wim Hof, cyclic hyperventilation-type breathing before; my lab studies this in humans.
我以前做过很多 tummo、Wim Hof、循环过度换气型呼吸；我的实验室在人类身上研究这一点。
And what we find is that if people do cyclic hyperventilation, so for about a minute, then exhale, hold their breath for 15 to 60 seconds depending on what they can do, and just keep repeating that for about five minutes, it seems to me that it at least partially mimics the state that you're talking about because afterwards, people report heightened levels of alertness, lower levels of triggering due to stressful events.
我们发现，如果人们进行周期性过度换气，大约一分钟，然后呼气，屏住呼吸15到60秒，具体取决于他们能做什么，然后不断重复大约五分钟，在我看来，它至少部分模仿了你所说的状态，因为之后，人们报告说，由于压力事件，警觉性水平提高，触发水平降低。
They feel comfortable at a higher level of autonomic arousal, cognitive focus.
他们对更高水平的自主神经唤醒和认知焦点感到舒适。
A number of improvements that are pretty impressive that any practitioner of Wim Hof or tummo will be familiar with.
许多 Wim Hof 或 tummo 的从业者都会熟悉的令人印象深刻的改进。
Is that pattern of breathing even ...
那个呼吸方式是不是……
Can we say that it maps to what you're describing in some general sense?
我们可以说它在某种一般意义上映射到您所描述的内容吗？
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
Well, the expert in this would be Gordon Mitchell.
好吧，这方面的专家是戈登·米切尔。
I would say it moves in that direction, but it's not as extreme because I don't think you can get down to the levels of hypoxia that they do clinically.
我会说它朝这个方向发展，但它并没有那么极端，因为我认为你无法达到临床上的缺氧水平。
I know that our pals at Our Breath Collective actually just bought a machine because you can buy a machine that does this.
我知道我们呼吸集体的朋友实际上刚刚买了一台机器，因为你可以买一台可以做到这一点的机器。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I see.
我明白了。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
And they bought it and they're going to do their own self-testing to see whether or not this has any effect on anything that they can measure.
他们购买了它，并且将进行自己的自我测试，看看这是否对他们可以测量的任何东西产生任何影响。
Of course, you have to be concerned about self-experimentation, but I applaud their curiosity in going after it.
当然，你必须关心自我实验，但我赞赏他们追求自我实验的好奇心。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hyperbaric chambers.
高压舱。
I hear a lot nowadays about hyperbaric chambers.
我现在听到很多关于高压舱的消息。
People are buying them and using them.
人们正在购买它们并使用它们。
And what are your thoughts on hyperbaric chambers as it relates to any of the-
您对高压舱有何看法，因为它与以下任何一项相关：
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
Hyper or hypo?
高还是低？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hyperbaric chambers.
高压舱。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
Okay, so you're not talking about altitude.
好吧，所以你不是在谈论海拔高度。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No.
不。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
I don't really have much to say.
我其实没什么好说的。
Your oxygen levels will probably go up a little bit and that could have a beneficial effect.
您的氧气水平可能会上升一点，这可能会产生有益的影响。
But that's way outside my area of comfort.
但这远远超出了我的舒适范围。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think ...
我认为...
2022 I think is going to be the year of two things I keep hearing a lot about, which is the deliberate use of high salt intake for performance, increasing blood volume, et cetera.
我认为 2022 年将是我经常听到的两件事的一年，那就是故意使用高盐摄入量来提高成绩、增加血容量等等。
And hyperbaric chambers seem to be catching on much in the same way that ice baths were and saunas seem to be right now.
高压舱似乎正在流行，就像现在的冰浴和桑拿一样。
But anyway, a prediction we can return to at some point.
但无论如何，我们可以在某个时候回到这个预测。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I want to ask you about some of the studies that I've seen out there exploring how deliberately restricting one's breathing to nasal breathing can do things like improve memory.
我想向您询问我所看到的一些研究，这些研究探讨了如何刻意地将一个人的呼吸限制为鼻呼吸可以起到改善记忆力等作用。
There's a couple papers in Journal of Neuroscience, which is a respectable journal in our field.
《Journal of Neuroscience》上有几篇论文，这是我们领域受人尊敬的期刊。
One looking at olfactory memory.
一是观察嗅觉记忆。
So that kind of made sense because you can smell things better through your nose than your mouth, unless you're some sort of elk or something, where they can, presumably they have some sense of smell in their mouth as well.
所以这是有道理的，因为你通过鼻子比通过嘴能更好地闻到东西的味道，除非你是某种麋鹿之类的东西，在它们可以的情况下，想必它们的嘴里也有某种嗅觉。
But humans generally smell with their nose.
但人类通常用鼻子闻气味。
That wasn't terribly surprising.
这并不奇怪。
But there was a companion study that showed that the hippocampus, an area involved in encoding memories in one form or another, was more active, if you will.
但有一项配套研究表明，如果你愿意的话，海马体（一个以某种形式参与编码记忆的区域）更加活跃。
And memory and recall was better when people learned information while nasal breathing as opposed to mouth breathing.
当人们通过鼻呼吸而不是用嘴呼吸来学习信息时，记忆力和回忆力会更好。
Does that make sense from any mechanistic perspective?
从任何机械角度来看这有意义吗？
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
Well, given that there are, there's a major pathway going from the olfactory system into the brain and you cut that ...
好吧，考虑到有，有一条主要通路从嗅觉系统进入大脑，你把它切掉......
And not one from many receptors in the mouth.
而不是口腔中众多受体中的一种。
The degree of respiratory modulation you're going to see throughout the forebrain is going to be less with mouth breathing than nose breathing, so it's certainly plausible.
你在整个前脑中看到的呼吸调节程度在用嘴呼吸时会比用鼻子呼吸时要小，所以这当然是合理的。
I think there are a lot of experiments that need to be done to distinguish between the two, that is the nasal component and the nonnasal component of these breathing-related signals.
我认为需要做很多实验来区分这两者，即这些与呼吸相关的信号的鼻成分和非鼻成分。
There's a tendency sometimes when you have a strong effect to be exclusive.
当你有很强的影响力时，有时会出现一种排他性的倾向。
And I think what's going on here is that there are many inputs that can have an effect.
我认为这里发生的事情是有很多输入可以产生影响。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
Now, whether they're parceled, that some affect this part of behavior and some affect that part of behavior, remains to be investigated.
现在，它们是否被分割，有些影响这部分行为，有些影响那部分行为，还有待调查。
There's certainly a strong olfactory component.
当然有很强的嗅觉成分。
My interest is trying to follow the central component because we know that there's a strong central component in this.
我的兴趣是尝试遵循中心部分，因为我们知道其中有一个强大的中心部分。
In fact, there's a strong central projection to the olfactory bulb.
事实上，嗅球有一个强烈的中央投射。
So regardless of whether or not there's any in and out of the nose, there's a respiratory input into the olfactory bulb which combines with the respiratory modulated signals coming from the sensory receptors.
因此，无论鼻子是否进出，都会有呼吸输入进入嗅球，并与来自感觉受体的呼吸调制信号相结合。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Interesting.
有趣。
And as long as we are poking around, forgive the pun, the nose, what about one nostril versus the other nostril?
只要我们四处探索，请原谅双关语，鼻子，一个鼻孔与另一个鼻孔相比怎么样？
I know it sounds a little crazy to imagine, but there have been theories in yogic traditions and others that breathing through one nostril somehow activates certain brain centers, maybe hemispherically one side of the brain versus the other, or that right nostril and left nostril breathing might differ in terms of the levels of alertness or calmness they produce.
我知道这听起来有点疯狂，但瑜伽传统和其他理论认为，通过一个鼻孔呼吸会以某种方式激活某些大脑中心，可能是大脑一侧与另一侧的半球中心，或者右鼻孔和左鼻孔呼吸所产生的警觉或平静程度可能有所不同。
I'm not aware of any mechanistic data on that, but if there's anything worthwhile about right nostril versus left nostril breathing that you're aware of, I'd love to know.
我不知道这方面的任何机械数据，但如果您知道右鼻孔与左鼻孔呼吸有什么有价值的地方，我很想知道。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
Well, it's certainly plausible.
嗯，这当然是合理的。
I don't know of any data demonstrating it except the anecdotal reports.
除了轶事报道之外，我不知道有任何数据可以证明这一点。
As you know, the brain is highly lateralized, and we have speech on one side and a dominant hand is on one side.
如您所知，大脑是高度偏侧化的，我们在一侧讲话，而惯用手在一侧。
And so the notion that if you have this huge signal coming from the olfactory system, and to some degree it's lateralized, it's not perfectly symmetrical, that is one side is not going evenly to both sides, then you can imagine.
因此，如果你有来自嗅觉系统的巨大信号，并且在某种程度上它是偏侧化的，它不是完全对称的，也就是说一侧没有均匀地传递到两侧，那么你可以想象。
And once the signal gets distributed in a way that's not uniform, that the effectiveness or the response is going to be particular to the cortex in which either the signal still remains or the signal is removed from.
一旦信号以不均匀的方式分布，有效性或响应将特定于信号仍然保留或信号被移除的皮层。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I see.
我明白了。
What are some of the other features of our brain and body, be it blinking or eye movements or ability to encode sounds, or any features of the way that we function and move and perceive things that are coordinated with breathing in some interesting way?
我们的大脑和身体还有哪些其他特征，无论是眨眼、眼球运动还是编码声音的能力，还是我们以某种有趣的方式与呼吸协调运作、移动和感知事物的方式的任何特征？
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
Thank you for that question.
谢谢你提出这个问题。
Almost everything.
几乎一切。
So we have for, example, on the autonomic side, we have respiratory sinus arrhythmia.
例如，在自主神经方面，我们有呼吸性窦性心律失常。
That is during expiration, the heart slows down.
也就是说，在呼气期间，心脏减慢。
Your pupils oscillate with the respiratory cycle.
您的瞳孔随着呼吸周期而振荡。
I don't know what the functional basis for that is, but they do oscillate with the respiratory cycle.
我不知道其功能基础是什么，但它们确实随着呼吸周期而振荡。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
When we inhale, our pupils constrict, presumably because there's an increase in heart rate and sympathetic tone.
当我们吸气时，我们的瞳孔会收缩，大概是因为心率和交感神经张力增加。
I would think of constriction and I'm guessing as you relax, the pupil will get ...
我会想到收缩，我猜当你放松时，学生会......
And you exhale, and the pupil will get ...
然后你呼气，瞳孔就会……
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
I think you're right, but I always get the valence of that ...
我认为你是对的，但我总是明白它的价值......
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, it's counterintuitive because people wouldn't think that when the pupils get ...
嗯，这是违反直觉的，因为人们不会认为当学生......
It depends.
这取决于。
You can get very alert and aroused for stress or for good reasons and the pupils get wider, but your visual feel narrows and then the opposite is true.
您可能会因为压力或出于充分的原因而变得非常警觉和兴奋，瞳孔会变宽，但您的视觉感觉会变窄，然后情况正好相反。
Anyway, I guess the idea is that the pupils are changing size and therefore the aperture, your visual window, is changing in coordination with breathing.
不管怎样，我想这个想法是瞳孔正在改变大小，因此孔径，你的视觉窗口，正在随着呼吸而变化。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
Okay.
好的。
Your fear response changes with the respiratory cycle.
你的恐惧反应随着呼吸周期的变化而变化。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Tell us more about that.
告诉我们更多相关信息。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
Well, there's a paper by , which I think showed rather clearly that if you show individuals fearful faces, that their measured response of fearfulness changes between inspiration, expiration.
嗯，有一篇论文，我认为它相当清楚地表明，如果你向个人展示恐惧的面孔，他们对恐惧的反应在吸气和呼气之间会发生变化。
I don't know why, but it does.
我不知道为什么，但确实如此。
Your reaction time changes.
你的反应时间会改变。
So you talk about blinking; the reaction time changes between inspiration and expiration.
所以你谈论眨眼；反应时间在吸气和呼气之间变化。
If I ask you to punch something, that time will change between inspiration and expiration.
如果我让你打东西，时间就会在吸气和呼气之间变化。
In fact, I don't know the degree to which martial artists exploit that.
事实上，我不知道武术家们利用这一点到什么程度。
You watch the breathing pattern and your opponent will actually move slower during one cycle compared to the other.
您观察呼吸模式，您的对手实际上会在一个周期内比另一周期移动得更慢。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Meaning as they're ...
意思是因为他们...
In which direction?
朝哪个方向？
If they're exhaling, they can punch faster?
如果他们呼气，他们就能出拳更快？
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
I have to say I don't keep a table of which is which direction things move in because I'm out of the martial arts field now.
我不得不说，我没有保留一个表格来表明事情的发展方向，因为我现在已经退出武术领域了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
My vague understanding is that exhales on strikes is the more typical way to do that.
我模糊的理解是，击球时呼气是更典型的方法。
And so as people strike, they exhale in martial arts.
因此，当人们击打时，他们会呼出武术。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
As you exhale.
当你呼气时。
But there are other components to striking because you want to stiffen your ribcage, you want to make a Valsalva maneuver.
但击打还有其他组成部分，因为你想要加强你的胸腔，你想要进行瓦氏动作。
So that's both an inspiration and an expiration.
所以这既是一种灵感，也是一种呼唤。
It's at the same time, so I don't know enough about when you say during expiration.
是同时的，所以你说的过期时间我不太了解。
I would assume that when you make a strike, you actually want to stiffen here, which is a Valsalva-like maneuver.
我认为，当你出击时，你实际上想要在这里僵硬，这是一种类似瓦氏动作的动作。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And oftentimes, they'll clench their fist at the last moment.
通常，他们会在最后一刻握紧拳头。
Anyway, there's a whole set of motor things there that we can talk to some fighters.
不管怎样，那里有一整套机动的东西，我们可以和一些战士交谈。
We know people who know fighters, so we can ask them.
我们认识了解战士的人，所以我们可以询问他们。
Interesting.
有趣的。
What are some other things that are modulated by breathing?
呼吸还可以调节哪些其他因素？
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
I think anything anyone looks at seems to have a breathing component because it's all over your brain, and it's hard to imagine it not being effective.
我认为任何人看到的任何东西似乎都有呼吸成分，因为它遍布你的大脑，很难想象它没有效果。
Now, whether it's incidental or just background and doesn't really have any behavioral advantage is possible; in other cases, there might have a behavioral advantage.
现在，无论是偶然的还是只是背景，并且实际上没有任何行为优势都是可能的；在其他情况下，可能有行为优势。
This eye-opening thing for me, probably a decade ago, was digging into literature and seeing how much of cortical activity and subcortical activity had a respiratory-modulated component to it.
这件事让我大开眼界，大概是在十年前，我正在深入研究文献，看看有多少皮质活动和皮质下活动含有呼吸调节成分。
And I think a lot of my colleagues who are studying cortex are oblivious to this.
我认为很多研究皮质的同事都没有意识到这一点。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
And they find ...
他们发现...
I heard it talked the other day, the person will go unnamed, who find a lot of things correlated with a particular movement.
我前几天听说有人谈论过，这个人不会透露姓名，他会发现很多事情与特定的运动相关。
And when I looked, I said, "Gee, that's a list of things that are respiratory modulated." And rather than it being correlated to the movement they were looking at, I think the movement they were looking at was modulated by breathing, as was everything else.
当我看到时，我说：“天哪，这是呼吸调节物质的清单。”我认为他们所看到的运动不是与他们所看到的运动相关，而是通过呼吸来调节，就像其他一切一样。
So there wasn't that the movement itself was driving that correlation.
因此，运动本身并没有推动这种相关性。
It was that they were all correlated to something else, which is the breathing movement.
它们都与其他东西相关，那就是呼吸运动。
And whether or not that is behaviorally relevant or behaviorally something you can exploit, I don't know.
我不知道这是否与行为相关或是否可以利用。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I suspect you're right, that breathing is, if not the foundational driver of many, if not all of these things, that it's at least one of the foundational interactions.
我怀疑你是对的，呼吸即使不是许多（如果不是全部）这些事情的基本驱动因素，它至少是基本相互作用之一。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
It's in the background, it's in the brain.
它在后台，在大脑中。
And oscillations play an important part in brain function.
振荡在大脑功能中发挥着重要作用。
And they vary in frequency from maybe a hundred hertz down to ...
它们的频率各不相同，从一百赫兹到......
Well, we can get the circadian and monthly cycles, but breathing occupies a rather unusual place in all that because ...
好吧，我们可以获得昼夜节律和每月周期，但呼吸在这一切中占据着相当不寻常的位置，因为......
So let me talk about what the people think the oscillations are doing, particularly the faster ones.
那么让我谈谈人们对振荡的看法，尤其是更快的振荡。
They're important in coordinating signals across neurons.
它们对于协调神经元之间的信号非常重要。
Just like in a computer, a computer steps.
就像在计算机中一样，计算机也是有步骤的。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
Just like in a computer.
就像在电脑中一样。
A computer steps, so a computer knows when information is coming from another part of a computer, that it was originated, at a particular time.
计算机是步进的，因此计算机知道信息何时来自计算机的另一部分，以及它是在特定时间产生的。
That discrete step-by-step thing is important in computer control.
这种离散的逐步的事情在计算机控制中很重要。
Now, the brain is not a digital device, it's an analog device.
现在，大脑不是数字设备，而是模拟设备。
When I have a signal, that's coming in my ear and my eye, which is Andrew Huberman's speaking, and I'm looking at his face.
当我收到信号时，它就会进入我的耳朵和眼睛，这是安德鲁·胡伯曼的讲话，我正在看着他的脸。
I see that as a whole, but the signal is coming into different parts of my brain.
我从整体上看到了这一点，但信号进入了我大脑的不同部分。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
How do I unify that?
我如何统一它？
Well, my neurons are very sensitive to changes in signals arriving, by fractions of a millisecond.
嗯，我的神经元对到达的信号变化非常敏感，变化幅度不到一毫秒。
How do I assure that those signals coming in represent the same signal?
如何确保传入的这些信号代表相同的信号？
Well, if I have, throughout my brain, an oscillation, and the signals ride on that oscillation, let's say the peak of the oscillation, I can then have a much better handle on the road of timing and say, "Those two signals came in at the same time, they may relate to the same object.
好吧，如果我的整个大脑有一个振荡，并且信号依赖于该振荡，比如说振荡的峰值，那么我就可以更好地处理时间的问题，并说：“这两个信号同时出现，它们可能与同一个物体有关。
Aha, I see you as one unified thing, spouting, talking."
啊哈，我认为你是一个统一体，在滔滔不绝地说话。”
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
These oscillations come in many different frequency ranges and are important in memory formation, and all sorts of things.
这些振荡有许多不同的频率范围，对于记忆形成和各种事物都很重要。
I don't think people pay much attention to breathing, because it's relatively slow, to this, the range when you think about — milliseconds.
我认为人们不太关注呼吸，因为它相对较慢，你想到的范围是毫秒。
We have important things, that are thought to be important, in cognitive function, which are a few cycles per second, to 20, 30, 40, 50 cycles per second.
在认知功能中，我们有一些重要的东西，被认为是重要的，它们是每秒几个周期，到每秒 20、30、40、50 个周期。
Breathing in humans is maybe 0.2 cycles per second, every five seconds.
人类的呼吸频率可能是每秒 0.2 次，即每五秒一次。
Although, in rodents they're up to four per second, which is pretty fast.
不过，在啮齿类动物中，速度可达每秒四次，这已经相当快了。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
Breathing has one thing, which is special, that is, you can readily change it.
呼吸有一件事很特别，那就是你可以轻易地改变它。
The degree to which the brain is using that slow signal for anything, if that becomes part of its normal signal processing, you now change it.
大脑将慢速信号用于任何事情的程度，如果这成为其正常信号处理的一部分，那么你现在就改变它。
That signal processing has to change, and as that signal processing changes, acutely, there's a change.
信号处理必须改变，随着信号处理的改变，急剧地发生了变化。
You asked about breath practice, how long do you have to do it?
你问呼吸练习，你需要练习多长时间？
Well, a single breath will change your state.
嗯，一次呼吸就会改变你的状态。
You're nervous, you take a deep breath, and it seems to help relax-
你很紧张，你深呼吸，这似乎有助于放松——
PART 3 OF 4 ENDS Andrew Huberman:
第 3 部分（共 4 部分）结束 Andrew Huberman：
Or a sigh.
或者一声叹息。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
Call it what you will.
你想怎么称呼它就怎么称呼它。
Call it what you will.
你想怎么称呼它就怎么称呼它。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
It seems to work.
似乎有效。
Now it doesn't have a permanent change, but when I'm getting up to bat, or getting up to the first tee, or getting to give a big talk, or coming to do a podcast, get a little bit anxious, a deep breath, or a few deep breaths are tremendously effective in calming one down.
现在它没有永久性的改变，但是当我准备击球时，或者准备去第一洞发球台，或者准备发表大演讲，或者来做播客时，变得有点焦虑，深呼吸，或者几次深呼吸对于平静下来非常有效。
You can get a transient disruption.
您可能会受到短暂的干扰。
But on the other hand, let's take something like depression.
但另一方面，让我们以抑郁症为例。
I think you can envision depression as activities going around in a circuit, and because it's continuous in the nervous system, as signals keep repeating, they tend to get stronger, and they can get so strong you can't break them.
我认为你可以将抑郁症想象成一个循环中的活动，因为它在神经系统中是连续的，随着信号不断重复，它们往往会变得更强，而且它们可以变得如此强大，以至于你无法打破它们。
You can imagine, depression being something going on, and on, and on, and you can't break it, and so we have trouble when we get to certain levels of depression.
你可以想象，抑郁症会一直持续下去，你无法打破它，所以当我们的抑郁症达到一定程度时，我们就会遇到麻烦。
I mean, all of us get depressed at some point, but if it's not continuous, it's not long-lasting, we're able to break it.
我的意思是，我们所有人都会在某个时候感到沮丧，但如果它不是持续的，也不是持久的，我们就能够打破它。
If it's long-lasting and very deep, we can't break it.
如果它持久且很深，我们就无法打破它。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
The question is how do we break it?
问题是我们如何打破它？
Well, there are extreme measures to break it.
好吧，有一些极端的措施可以打破它。
We could do electroconvulsive shock; we shock the whole brain, that's disrupting activity in the whole brain, and when this circuit starts to get back together again, it's been disruptive.
我们可以进行电休克；我们电击整个大脑，这会扰乱整个大脑的活动，当这个回路开始再次恢复正常时，它就会被破坏。
We know that the brain, when signals get disrupted a little bit, we can weaken the connections, and weakening the connections, if it's that circuit involved in depression, we may get some relief.
我们知道，大脑，当信号受到一点干扰时，我们就可以削弱连接，而削弱连接，如果是那个与抑郁有关的回路，我们可能会得到一些缓解。
An electroconvulsive shock does work for relieving many kinds of depression.
电休克确实可以缓解多种抑郁症。
That's pretty heroic.
这真是太英雄了。
Focal deep brain stimulation does the same thing, but more localized, or transcranial stimulation — you're disrupting a network, and while it's getting back together, it may weaken some of the connections.
局灶性深部脑刺激也能起到同样的作用，但更加局部化，或者说是经颅刺激——你正在破坏一个网络，当它恢复正常时，它可能会削弱一些连接。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
If breathing is playing some role in this circuit and now instead of doing a one-second shock, I do 30 minutes of disruption by doing slow breathing or other breathing practice, those circuits begin to break down a little bit, and I get some relief.
如果呼吸在这个回路中发挥了一定作用，现在我不再进行一秒钟的电击，而是通过缓慢呼吸或其他呼吸练习来进行 30 分钟的干扰，这些回路开始稍微崩溃，我会得到一些缓解。
If I continue to do it, before the circuit can then build back up again, I gradually, can wear that circuit down.
如果我继续这样做，在电路再次建立之前，我会逐渐磨损该电路。
I liken this ...
我把这个比作...
I tell people, it's like walking around on a dirt path.
我告诉人们，这就像在土路上走来走去。
You build a rut, the rut gets so deep you can't get out of it.
你建立了一个车辙，车辙变得很深，你无法摆脱它。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
What breathing is doing is filling in the rut bit by bit, to the point that you can climb out of that rut.
呼吸所做的就是一点一滴地填补陈规，直到你能够爬出那个陈规。
That is because breathing, the breathing signal, is playing some role in the way this circuit works.
这是因为呼吸，即呼吸信号，在该电路的工作方式中发挥着某种作用。
Then when you disrupt it, the circuit gets a little thrown off-kilter, and when, as you know, circuits get thrown off, the nervous system tries to adjust in some way or another.
然后，当你扰乱它时，电路就会有点失衡，正如你所知，当电路失灵时，神经系统会尝试以某种方式进行调整。
It turns out, at least for breathing, for some evolutionary reason or just by happenstance, it seems to improve our emotional function or our cognitive function.
事实证明，至少对于呼吸来说，出于某种进化原因或只是偶然，它似乎改善了我们的情绪功能或认知功能。
We are very fortunate that's the case.
我们很幸运，情况确实如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's a terrific segue into what I want to ask you next, and this is part of a set of questions I want to make sure we touch on before we wrap up, which is, what do you do with all this knowledge, in terms of a breathing practice?
这是我接下来想问你的问题的一个很好的延续，这是我想在结束之前确保我们触及的一系列问题的一部分，即，在呼吸练习方面，你如何利用所有这些知识？
You mentioned that one breath can shift your brain state, and that itself can be powerful.
你提到一次呼吸可以改变你的大脑状态，而且呼吸本身就很强大。
I think that's absolutely, true.
我认为这绝对是真的。
You've also talked about 30-minute breathwork practices, which is, 30 minutes of breathwork is a pretty serious commitment, I think, but it's doable, certainly a zero cost, except for the time, in most cases.
您还谈到了30分钟的呼吸练习，也就是说，30分钟的呼吸是一个相当严肃的承诺，我认为，但它是可行的，当然是零成本，除了时间之外，在大多数情况下。
What do you see out there in the landscape of breathwork that's being done, that you like, and why do you like it?
在正在进行的呼吸练习中，您看到了什么，您喜欢什么？为什么喜欢它？
What do you think ...
你觉得怎么样...
or what would you like to see more of in terms of exploration of breathwork, and what do you do?
或者在探索呼吸方面你希望看到更多什么，你会做什么？
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
Well, I'm a relatively, new convert to breathwork.
嗯，我是一个相对较新的呼吸法皈依者。
Through my own investigation of it, I became convinced that it's real.
通过我自己的调查，我确信这是真的。
I'm basically a beginner in terms of my own practice.
就我自己的实践而言，我基本上是一个初学者。
I like to keep things simple.
我喜欢让事情变得简单。
I think I've discussed this before.
我想我之前已经讨论过这个问题了。
I liken it to someone who's a couch potato, who's told they got to begin to exercise.
我把它比作一个电视迷，他被告知必须开始锻炼。
You don't go out and run a marathon, so couch potato, you say, "Okay, get up and walk for five minutes, then 10 minutes." Then, "Okay, now you're walking for a longer period.
你不会出去跑马拉松，所以沙发土豆你会说：“好吧，站起来步行五分钟，然后步行 10 分钟。”然后，“好吧，现在你步行的时间更长了。
You begin to run." Then you reach your point, you say, "Well gee, I'm interested in this sport, and there may be particular kinds of practices that you can use that could be helpful in optimizing a performance of that sport."
你开始奔跑。”然后你到达你的观点，你说，“好吧，我对这项运动很感兴趣，你可以使用一些特殊的练习来帮助优化这项运动的表现。”
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
I'm not there yet.
我还没到那儿。
I find I get tremendous benefit by relatively short periods, between five and maybe 20 minutes of doing box breathing.
我发现，相对较短的时间（5 到 20 分钟的箱式呼吸）可以让我获益匪浅。
It's very simple to do.
做起来非常简单。
I have a simple app, which helps me keep the timing.
我有一个简单的应用程序，它可以帮助我保持计时。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do you recall which app it is?
你还记得它是哪个应用程序吗？
Is it the apnea trainer?
是呼吸暂停训练器吗？
Is that the one?
就是那个吗？
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
Well, I was using Calm for a long time, but I let my subscription relapse, and I have another one whose name I don't remember, but it's very simple, and it works for me.
好吧，我使用 Calm 很长一段时间了，但我让我的订阅复发了，我还有另一个，我不记得名字了，但它非常简单，而且对我有用。
Now trying this tummo, because I'm just curious in exploring it, because it may be acting for a different way, and I want to see if I respond differently.
现在尝试这个tummo，因为我只是好奇地探索它，因为它可能以不同的方式起作用，我想看看我的反应是否不同。
I don't have a particular point of view.
我没有特定的观点。
Now, I have friends and colleagues, who are into particular styles, like Wim Hof, and I think what he's doing is great, in getting people who are interested.
现在，我有一些喜欢特定风格的朋友和同事，比如 Wim Hof，我认为他所做的事情很棒，能够吸引感兴趣的人。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
I think, the notion is that I would like to see more people exploring this.
我认为，我希望看到更多的人对此进行探索。
To some degree, as you point out, 30 minutes a day, some of the breath patterns that some of these stars like Wim Hof, are a little intimidating to newbies.
在某种程度上，正如你所指出的，每天 30 分钟，像 Wim Hof 这样的明星的一些呼吸模式对新手来说有点吓人。
I would like to see something very simple, that people ...
我想看到一些非常简单的事情，那就是人们......
What I tell my friends is, "Look, just try it five or 10 minutes, see if you feel better.
我告诉我的朋友们，“听着，尝试五到十分钟，看看你是否感觉好一些。
Do it for a few days.
做几天。
If you don't like it, stop.
如果你不喜欢，就停下来。
It doesn't cost anything." Invariably, they find that it's helpful.
这不需要任何费用。”他们总是发现这很有帮助。
I will often interrupt my day, to take five or 10 minutes, if I find that I'm lagging.
如果我发现自己落后了，我经常会打断我的一天，花五到十分钟。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
I think there's some pretty good data that your performance after lunch, declines.
我认为有一些很好的数据表明你午餐后的表现会下降。
Very often what I'll do after lunch, which I didn't do today, is take five or 10 minutes and just breath practice.
很多时候，午饭后我会花五到十分钟进行呼吸练习，但今天我没有这样做。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Lately, what does that breath practice look like?
最近，呼吸练习是什么样的？
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
It's just box breathing, for five or 10 minutes.
只是箱式呼吸，持续五到十分钟。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The duration of your inhales and holds and exhales and holds is set by the app.
您吸气和保持以及呼气和保持的持续时间由应用程序设置。
Is that right?
是这样吗？
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
Well, I do five seconds.
好吧，我做五秒钟。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Five seconds inhale, five second hold, five second exhale, five second hold?
五秒吸气，五秒屏住，五秒呼气，五秒屏住？
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
Sometimes, I'll do doubles.
有时，我会做双打。
I'll do 10 seconds, just because I get bored.
我会做10秒，只是因为我觉得无聊。
I feel like doing it.
我感觉很想做。
It's very helpful.
这非常有帮助。
I mean, now that's not the only thing I do, with respect to trying to maintain my sanity, and my health.
我的意思是，现在这不是我为了保持理智和健康所做的唯一事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, I can imagine that there'd be a number of things, although you seem, because you seem very sane and very healthy.
不，我可以想象会有很多事情，尽管你看起来很正常，因为你看起来很理智，很健康。
I, in fact, know that you are both those things.
事实上，我知道你们都是这样的人。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
Well, you suspect that I am.
好吧，你怀疑我是。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I suspect, but there's data.
我怀疑，但有数据。
A while back, we had a conversation, a casual conversation, but you said something that really stuck in my mind, which is that it might be that the specific pattern of breathwork that one does is not as important as experiencing transitions between states, based on deliberate breathwork, or something to that extent.
不久前，我们进行了一次谈话，一次随意的谈话，但你说了一些让我印象深刻的话，那就是，一个人所做的特定呼吸模式可能并不像基于刻意的呼吸或某种程度的状态之间的转换那么重要。
Which I interpreted to mean that if I were to do box breathing, with five second in, five second hold, five second exhale, five second hold, for a couple of days or maybe even a couple of minutes, and then switch to a 10 seconds, or then switch to tummo, that there's something powerful, perhaps, in the transitions, realizing the relationship between different patterns of breathing and those transitions.
我的解释是，如果我进行箱式呼吸，吸气五秒，屏住五秒，呼气五秒，屏住五秒，持续几天，甚至几分钟，然后切换到十秒，或者切换到鼓式呼吸，那么在这些转换中，也许会有一些强大的东西，意识到不同的呼吸模式和这些转换之间的关系。
Much in the same way that you can get into one of these cars at an amusement park that just goes at a constant rate, and then stops.
就像你可以在游乐园里坐上其中一辆车一样，它以恒定的速度行驶，然后停下来。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Very different than learning how to shift gears.
与学习如何换档非常不同。
I used to drive a manual, I still can, so I'm thinking about a manual transmission.
我以前开手动挡，现在仍然可以，所以我正在考虑手动挡。
Even with an automatic transmission, you start to get a sense of how the vehicle behaves, under different conditions.
即使使用自动变速箱，您也开始了解车辆在不同条件下的表现。
I thought that was a beautiful seed for a potential breathwork practice, that at least to my awareness, nobody has really formalized, which is that you introduce some variability within the practice that's somewhat random, in order to be able to sense the relationship between different speeds and depths of inhales, exhales and holds, and so forth.
我认为这是一个潜在的呼吸练习的美丽种子，至少在我看来，没有人真正正式化，也就是说，你在练习中引入了一些随机的变化，以便能够感知吸气、呼气和保持等不同速度和深度之间的关系。
Essentially, it's like driving around the track but with obstacles, at different rates, and breaking and restarting, and things of that sort.
本质上，这就像在赛道上行驶，但有障碍物，以不同的速度，中断和重新启动，以及诸如此类的事情。
That's how you learn how to drive.
这就是您学习如何驾驶的方式。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What do you think about that?
你对此有何看法？
If you like it enough, can we call it the Feldman protocol?
如果您足够喜欢，我们可以将其称为 Feldman 协议吗？
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
Oh, please.
哦，拜托。
I was asked in this BBC interview once, why didn't I name it the Feldman complex, instead of the pre-Bötzinger complex.
有一次在 BBC 采访中有人问我，为什么我不将其命名为 Feldman 复合体，而是命名为前 Bötzinger 复合体。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You said, I already have a Feldman complex.
你说，我已经有费尔德曼情结了。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
Well, it sounds like a psychiatric disorder, but I think the primary effect is this disruptive effect, which I described, but the particular responses may clearly vary depending on what that disruption is.
嗯，这听起来像是一种精神疾病，但我认为主要影响是我所描述的这种破坏性影响，但特定的反应可能显然会根据破坏的内容而有所不同。
I don't know of any particular data which are in well-controlled experiments which can actually work through the different types of breathing patterns, or simply with a box pattern, just varying the durations.
我不知道在严格控制的实验中是否有任何特定的数据实际上可以通过不同类型的呼吸模式起作用，或者简单地使用盒子模式，只是改变持续时间。
I mean, pranayama is sort of similar, but the amount of time you spend going around the box is different.
我的意思是，调息法有点相似，但你花在盒子上的时间是不同的。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
I don't really have much to say about this.
对此我其实没什么可说的。
I mean, this is why we need better controlled experiments in humans.
我的意思是，这就是为什么我们需要更好地控制人体实验。
I think this is where being able to study it in rodents, where you can have a wide range of perturbations, while you're doing more invasive studies to really get down as to which regions are affected, how is the signal processing disrupted — which is still a hypothesis — but how it's disrupted could tell us a lot about maybe there's a resonant point at which there's an optimal effect when you take a particular breathing practice.
我认为这就是能够在啮齿类动物身上进行研究的地方，在那里你可以有各种各样的扰动，同时你正在做更多的侵入性研究，以真正了解哪些区域受到影响，信号处理是如何被破坏的——这仍然是一个假设——但它是如何被破坏的可以告诉我们很多关于也许存在一个共振点，当你进行特定的呼吸练习时，在这个共振点上会产生最佳效果。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
Then when we talked about the fact that different breathing practices could be affecting the outcome through different pathways.
然后，当我们谈到不同的呼吸练习可能通过不同的途径影响结果这一事实时。
You have the olfactory pathway, you have a central pathway, you have a vagal pathway, you have a descending pathway; how different practices may change the summation of those things, because I think all those things are probably involved, and we're just beginning to scratch the surface.
你有嗅觉通路，你有中枢通路，你有迷走神经通路，你有下降通路；不同的实践可能会如何改变这些事情的总和，因为我认为所有这些事情可能都涉及到，而我们才刚刚开始触及表面。
I just hope that we can get serious neuroscientists and psychologists to do the right experiments to get at this because I think there's a lot of value to human health here.
我只是希望我们能够让认真的神经科学家和心理学家做正确的实验来解决这个问题，因为我认为这对人类健康有很大的价值。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I do too.
我也是。
It's one of the reasons my lab has shifted to these sorts of things in humans.
这是我的实验室转向研究人类此类研究的原因之一。
I'm delighted that you're continuing to do the hardcore, mechanistic work in mice, and probably you'll do work in humans, as well, if you're not already.
我很高兴你继续在小鼠身上进行核心的机械工作，并且可能你也会在人类身上进行工作，如果你还没有这样做的话。
There are other groups, Epel lab at UCSF and a number of ...
还有其他小组，加州大学旧金山分校的 Epel 实验室和许多......
I'm starting to see some papers out there about respiration in humans, a little bit, some more brain imaging.
我开始看到一些关于人类呼吸的论文，一些更多的大脑成像。
I can't help but ask about a somewhat, unrelated topic, but it is important, in light of this conversation, because you're here.
我忍不住问一个有点不相关的话题，但鉴于这次谈话，它很重要，因为你在这里。
One of the things that I really enjoy about conversations with you, as it relates to health and neuroscience, and so forth, is that you're one of the few colleagues I have who openly admits to exploring supplementation.
我真正喜欢与你交谈的一件事是，因为它涉及健康和神经科学等，你是我的少数几个公开承认探索补充剂的同事之一。
I'm a long-time supplement fan.
我是一个长期的补充剂粉丝。
I think there's power in compounds, both prescription, non-prescription, natural, synthesized.
我认为化合物具有力量，无论是处方药、非处方药、天然的还是合成的。
I don't use these haphazardly, but I think there's certainly power in them.
我不会随意使用它们，但我认为它们确实有力量。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
One of the places where you and I converge is, in terms of our interest in the nervous system and supplementation, is vis-à-vis magnesium.
就我们对神经系统和补充剂的兴趣而言，你和我的共同点之一是镁。
Now I've talked at endlessly, on the podcast and elsewhere, about magnesium for sake of sleep and improving transitions to sleep, and so forth.
现在我在播客和其他地方没完没了地谈论镁对于睡眠和改善睡眠过渡等等。
You have a somewhat, different interest in magnesium as it relates to cognitive function and durability of cognitive function.
您对镁有一些不同的兴趣，因为它与认知功能和认知功能的持久性有关。
Would you mind just sharing with us a little bit about what that interest is, where it stems from, and because it's the Huberman Lab podcast and we often talk about supplementation, what you do with that information?
您介意与我们分享一下您的兴趣是什么、它从何而来吗？因为这是 Huberman 实验室的播客，而且我们经常谈论补充，您会如何处理这些信息？
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
I need to disclose that I am a scientific advisor to a company called Neurocentria, which my graduate student Guosong Liu is CEO.
我需要透露一下，我是一家名为 Neurocentria 的公司的科学顾问，我的研究生刘国松担任该公司的首席执行官。
That said, I can give you some background.
也就是说，我可以给你一些背景知识。
Guosong, although when he was in my lab worked on breathing, had a deep interest in learning and memory.
国松虽然在我的实验室研究的是呼吸，但他对学习和记忆有着浓厚的兴趣。
When he left my lab, he went to work with a renowned learning and memory guy at Stanford, Dick Chen.
当他离开我的实验室时，他去斯坦福大学与一位著名的学习和记忆专家迪克·陈（Dick Chen）一起工作。
When he finished there, he was hired by Susumu Tonegawa at MIT.
当他完成学业后，他被麻省理工学院的利根川进聘用。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Who also knows a thing or two about memory.
谁也对记忆略知一二。
I'm teasing.
我在开玩笑。
Susumu has a Nobel for his work on immunoglobulins, but then is a world-class memory researcher.
苏苏穆因其在免疫球蛋白方面的研究而获得诺贝尔奖，但他同时也是一位世界级的记忆研究员。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
And more.
还有更多。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
He's many things.
他有很多东西。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
Guosong had ...
国松曾...
very curious, very bright guy, and he was interested in how signals between neurons get strengthened, which is called long-term potentiation, or LTP.
非常好奇、非常聪明的家伙，他对神经元之间的信号如何增强很感兴趣，这被称为长时程增强，或 LTP。
One of the questions that arose was, if I have inputs to a neuron, and I get LTP, is the LTP bigger if the signal is bigger, or the noise is less.
出现的问题之一是，如果我有一个神经元的输入，并且我得到 LTP，那么如果信号越大，或者噪声越小，LTP 是否就越大。
We can imagine that when we're listening to something, if it's louder, we can hear it better, or if there's less noise, we can hear it better.
我们可以想象，当我们听某件事时，如果声音较大，我们可以听得更好，或者如果噪音较小，我们可以听得更好。
He wanted to investigate this.
他想调查此事。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
He did this in tissue culture of hippocampal neurons.
他在海马神经元的组织培养中做到了这一点。
What he found was that if he lowered the background activity in all of the neurons, that the LTP he elicited got stronger.
他发现，如果他降低所有神经元的背景活动，他引发的 LTP 就会更强。
The way he did that was increasing the level of magnesium in the bathing solution.
他这样做的方法是增加沐浴液中镁的含量。
This gets into some esoteric electrophysiology, but basically, there's a background level of noise in all neurons, and part of it is regulated by the degree of magnesium in the extracellular bath.
这涉及一些深奥的电生理学，但基本上，所有神经元中都存在背景噪音水平，其中一部分是由细胞外浴中镁的含量调节的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You mean electrical noise?
你是说电噪声吗？
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
Electrical noise, I'm sorry, electrical noise.
电噪声，对不起，电噪声。
If you, in what's called the physiological range, which is between 0.8 and 1.2 millimolar, which don't worry about the number-
如果你在所谓的生理范围内，即 0.8 到 1.2 毫摩尔之间，不用担心数字 -
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I can't believe you remember the millimolar of the magnesium.
我不敢相信你还记得镁的毫摩尔数。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
Well, I'm always frightened that I get, I say micro or femto, or something.
好吧，我总是害怕我会得到，我说微型或毫微微，或者其他什么。
I go off by several layers of magnitude.
我偏离了好几层。
In that physiological range, there's a big difference in the amount of noise in a neuron, between 0.8 and 1.2 millimolar.
在这个生理范围内，神经元中的噪声量存在很大差异，在 0.8 到 1.2 毫摩尔之间。
He played around with the magnesium, and he found out that when the magnesium was elevated, there was more LTP.
他研究了镁的含量，发现当镁含量升高时，LTP 就会增加。
All right, that's an observation in a tissue culture.
好吧，这是组织培养中的观察结果。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I should just mention that more LTP, essentially, translates to more neuroplasticity, more rewiring of connections, in essence.
我只想提一下，本质上，更多的 LTP 会转化为更多的神经可塑性，本质上更多的连接重新布线。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
He tested this, in mice, and basically, he offered them ...
他在老鼠身上进行了测试，基本上，他向它们提供了......
He had control mice, which got a normal diet, and one that had ...
他有对照组小鼠，它们有正常的饮食，还有一只……
one enriched the magnesium.
一种富集了镁。
The ones that lived enriched with magnesium had higher cognitive function, lived longer, everything you'd want in some magic pill, those mice did that.
那些富含镁的老鼠有更高的认知功能，寿命更长，你想要的任何神奇药丸的一切，这些老鼠都做到了。
Excuse me, rats.
对不起，老鼠们。
The problem was that you couldn't imagine taking this into humans because most magnesium salts don't passively get from the gut into the bloodstream, into the brain.
问题是你无法想象将其应用到人类身上，因为大多数镁盐不会被动地从肠道进入血液、进入大脑。
They pass via what's called a transporter.
他们通过所谓的运输机通过。
A transporter is something in a membrane that grabs a magnesium molecule or atom and pulls it into the other side.
转运蛋白是膜中的某种东西，它抓住镁分子或原子并将其拉到另一侧。
If you imagine you have magnesium in your gut, you have transporters that pull the magnesium in the gut into the bloodstream.
如果你想象你的肠道里有镁，那么你就有转运蛋白将肠道中的镁拉入血液中。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
Well, if you had to take a normal magnesium supplement, that you can buy at the pharmacy, it doesn't cross the gut very easily.
好吧，如果您必须服用可以在药房购买的普通镁补充剂，它不会很容易穿过肠道。
If you would take enough of it to get it in your bloodstream, you start getting diarrhea.
如果您摄入足够的量使其进入血液，您就会开始腹泻。
It's not a good way to go.
这不是一个好方法。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, it is a good way to go.
哦，这是一个好方法。
I couldn't help myself.
我情不自禁。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
Well said.
说得好。
He worked with this brilliant chemist, Fei Mao, and Fei looked at a whole range of magnesium compounds, and he found that magnesium threonate was much more effective in crossing the gut blood barrier.
他与这位才华横溢的化学家费茂一起工作，费茂研究了一系列镁化合物，他发现苏糖酸镁在穿过肠道血屏障方面更有效。
Now, they didn't realize at the time, but threonate is a metabolite of vitamin C.
现在，他们当时并没有意识到，苏糖酸是维生素 C 的代谢产物。
There's lots of threonate in your body.
您的体内有大量的苏糖酸盐。
Magnesium threonate would appear to be safe, and maybe part of the role — now they believe it's part of the role of the threonate — is that it supercharges the transporter to get the magnesium in.
苏糖酸镁似乎是安全的，也许其部分作用（现在他们相信这是苏糖酸盐作用的一部分）是它可以增强转运蛋白以吸收镁。
Remember, you need a transporter at the gut, into the brain and into cells.
请记住，您需要肠道、大脑和细胞中的转运蛋白。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
They gave magnesium threonate, to mice, who had...
他们给小鼠注射了苏糖酸镁，小鼠...
No. Let me backtrack a bit.
不，让我回溯一下。
They did a study in humans.
他们对人类进行了一项研究。
They hired a company to do a test.
他们聘请了一家公司来做测试。
It was a hands-off test.
这是一次不干涉的测试。
It's one of these companies that get hired by the big pharma to do their test for them.
这是大型制药公司聘请为他们进行测试的公司之一。
They got patients who were diagnosed as mild cognitive decline.
他们的病人被诊断为轻度认知能力下降。
These are people who had cognitive disorder which was age inappropriate.
这些人患有与年龄不相称的认知障碍。
The metric that they use for determining how far off they were is Spearman's g factor, which is a generalized measure of intelligence that most psychologists accept.
他们用来确定自己离自己有多远的指标是斯皮尔曼的 g 因子，这是大多数心理学家接受的智力的通用衡量标准。
The biological age of the subjects was, I think, 51.
我认为受试者的生物学年龄是 51 岁。
The cognitive age was 61, based on the Spearman's g test.
根据 Spearman 的 g 检验，认知年龄为 61 岁。
Oh, I should say the Spearman g factor starts at a particular level in the population, at age 20, and declines about 1% a year.
哦，我应该说 Spearman g 因子从人群中的特定水平开始，即 20 岁时，每年下降约 1%。
Sorry to say we're not 20-year-olds anymore.
很抱歉，我们已经不再是20岁的人了。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
When you get a number, from that you can put on the curve and see whether you're ...
当你得到一个数字时，你可以把它放在曲线上，看看你是否......
it's about your age or not.
这与你的年龄有关。
These people are about 10 years older, according to that metric.
根据这一指标，这些人大约年长 10 岁。
Long story short, after three months ...
长话短说，三个月后...
This is a placebo-controlled, double-blind study.
这是一项安慰剂对照、双盲研究。
The people who were in the placebo arm improved two years, which is common for human studies because of placebo effect.
安慰剂组的受试者病情改善了两年，由于安慰剂效应，这在人类研究中很常见。
The people who got the compound improved eight years, on average, and some improved more than eight years.
服用该化合物的人平均病情改善了八年，有些人的病情改善了八年以上。
They didn't do any further diagnosis as to what caused the mild cognitive decline, but it was extraordinarily impressive.
他们没有对导致轻度认知能力下降的原因进行任何进一步的诊断，但这令人印象深刻。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It moved their cognition closer to their biological age.
它使他们的认知更接近他们的生物年龄。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
Biological age.
生物年龄。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do you recall what the doses of magnesium threonate were?
您还记得苏糖酸镁的剂量是多少吗？
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
It's in the paper, and it's basically what they have in the compound which is sold commercially.
它出现在报纸上，基本上就是商业销售的化合物中的内容。
The compound which is sold commercially is handled by a nutraceutical wholesaler who sells it to the retailers, and they make whatever formulation they want.
商业销售的化合物由营养保健品批发商处理，然后将其出售给零售商，他们可以制作他们想要的任何配方。
It's a dosage which is, my understanding is rarely tolerable.
据我了解，这个剂量是很难忍受的。
I take half a dose.
我服用半剂。
The reason I take half a dose is that I had my blood magnesium measured, and it was low/normal for my age.
我服用一半剂量的原因是我测量了血镁，对于我的年龄来说它是低/正常的。
I took half a dose, it became high/normal.
我服用了一半剂量，它变得高/正常。
I felt comfortable staying in the normal range.
我觉得保持在正常范围内很舒服。
A lot of people are taking the full dose.
很多人正在服用全剂量。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
At my age, I'm not looking to get smarter.
在我这个年纪，我不想变得更聪明。
I'm looking to decline more slowly.
我希望下降得更慢。
It's hard, as you know, it's hard for me to tell you whether or not it's effective, or not.
这很难，如你所知，我很难告诉你它是否有效。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, you remembered the millimolar of the magnesium and the solution and on the high and low end.
好吧，您还记得镁和溶液的毫摩尔以及高端和低端。
I would say it's not a well-controlled study when it's an n of one.
我想说，当它是一个 n 时，这不是一项控制良好的研究。
It seems to be working.
似乎正在发挥作用。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
When I recommend it to my friends, academics who are, by nature, skeptical, if not cynical, and I insist that they try it.
当我向我的朋友和学者推荐它时，他们本质上是持怀疑态度的，甚至是愤世嫉俗的，我坚持让他们尝试一下。
They usually don't report a major change in their cognitive function, although sometimes they do report, "Well, I feel a little bit more alert, and my physical movements are better." Many of them report they sleep better.
他们通常不会报告自己的认知功能发生重大变化，尽管有时他们确实会报告，“嗯，我感觉更警觉了，我的身体运动也更好了。”他们中的许多人报告说他们睡得更好了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That makes sense.
这是有道理的。
I think there's good evidence that threonate can accelerate the transition into sleep and maybe even access to deeper modes of sleep for some people there.
我认为有充分的证据表明苏糖酸盐可以加速进入睡眠的过渡，甚至可能使某些人进入更深的睡眠模式。
For many people actually, a small percentage of people who take threonate, including one of our podcast staff here, have stomach issues with it.
实际上，对于许多人来说，一小部分服用苏糖酸盐的人，包括我们这里的一位播客工作人员，都患有胃部问题。
They can't tolerate it.
他们不能容忍。
I would say, just anecdotally, about 5% of people don't tolerate threonate well; they stop taking it, and then they're fine.
我想说的是，据传闻，大约 5% 的人不能很好地耐受苏糖酸盐；他们停止服用，然后就没事了。
It caused them diarrhea or something of that sort.
这导致他们腹泻或类似的情况。
Most people tolerate it well, and most people report that it vastly improves their sleep.
大多数人都能很好地耐受它，并且大多数人报告说它极大地改善了他们的睡眠。
Again, that's anecdotally.
再说一遍，这是轶事。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There are a few studies, and there're more on the way.
目前已经有一些研究，而且更多的研究正在进行中。
That's very interesting, because until you and I had the discussion about threonate, I wasn't aware of the cognitive-enhancing effects, but the story makes sense from a mechanistic perspective, and it brings it around to a bigger and more important statement, which is that I so appreciate your attention to mechanism.
这非常有趣，因为在你和我讨论苏糖酸盐之前，我没有意识到认知增强作用，但这个故事从机械论的角度来看是有意义的，它带来了一个更大、更重要的陈述，那就是我非常感谢你对机制的关注。
I guess this stems from your early training as a physicist and the desire to get numbers and to really parse things at a fine level.
我想这源于您作为物理学家的早期训练以及获得数字并真正精细解析事物的愿望。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We've covered a lot today.
今天我们已经讨论了很多内容。
I know there's much more that we could cover.
我知道我们还可以涵盖更多内容。
I'm going to insist on a part two at some point, but I really want to speak on behalf of a huge number of people and just thank you, not just for your time and energy and attention to detail and accuracy and clarity around this topic today, but also what I should have said at the beginning, which is that you really are a pioneer in this field of studying respiration and the mechanisms underlying respiration, with modern tools for many decades.
我会在某个时候坚持第二部分，但我真的想代表很多人发言，感谢你们，不仅感谢你们的时间和精力以及对今天围绕这个主题的细节、准确性和清晰度的关注，而且还要感谢我在一开始就应该说的话，那就是你们确实是几十年来使用现代工具研究呼吸和呼吸机制这一领域的先驱。
The field of neuroscience was one that was perfectly content to address issues like memory, and vision, and sensation, perception, et cetera.
神经科学领域完全满足于解决记忆、视觉、感觉、知觉等问题。
But the respiratory system was largely overlooked for a long time.
但呼吸系统长期以来一直被忽视。
You've just been steadily clipping away and clipping away, and much ...
你一直在稳步地剪掉、剪掉，还有很多……
Because of the events related to COVID, and a number of other things, and this huge interest in breathwork and brain states and wellness, the field of respiration and interest in respiration has just exploded.
由于与新冠病毒相关的事件以及其他一些事情，以及人们对呼吸、大脑状态和健康的巨大兴趣，呼吸领域和对呼吸的兴趣刚刚爆发。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I really want to extend a sincere thanks.
我真的想表达诚挚的谢意。
It means a lot to me, and I know to the audience of this podcast, that someone with your depth and rigor in this area is both a scientist and a practitioner, and that you would share this with us, so thank you.
这对我来说意义重大，我也知道这个播客的观众，像你这样在这个领域有深度和严谨的人既是科学家又是实践者，你愿意与我们分享这一点，所以谢谢你。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
Well, I want to thank you.
嗯，我想谢谢你。
This is actually a great opportunity for me.
这对我来说实际上是一个很好的机会。
I've been isolated in my silo for a long time, and it's been a wonderful experience to communicate to people outside the silo who have an interest in this.
我已经被孤立在自己的筒仓里很长一段时间了，与筒仓之外对此感兴趣的人进行交流是一次美妙的经历。
I think that there's a lot that remains to be done, and I enjoy speaking to people who have interest in this.
我认为还有很多工作要做，我喜欢与对此感兴趣的人交谈。
I find the interest to be quite mind-boggling, and it's quite wonderful that people are willing to listen to things that can be quite esoteric at times, but it gets down to deep things about who we are and how we are going to live our lives.
我发现这种兴趣非常令人难以置信，而且人们愿意倾听有时可能非常深奥的事情，这真是太棒了，但这涉及到我们是谁以及我们将如何生活的深刻问题。
I appreciate the opportunity, and I would be delighted to come back, at any time.
我很珍惜这个机会，并且很高兴随时回来。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wonderful.
太棒了。
We will absolutely do it.
我们绝对会做到。
Thanks again, Jack.
再次感谢，杰克。
Jack Feldman:
杰克·费尔德曼：
Bye now.
现在再见。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thank you for joining me for my conversation with Dr. Jack Feldman.
感谢您参加我与杰克·费尔德曼博士的对话。
I hope you found it as entertaining and as informative as I did.
我希望您能像我一样觉得它既有趣又信息丰富。
If you're learning from and/or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to us on YouTube.
如果您正在学习和/或喜欢此播客，请在 YouTube 上订阅我们。
That's a terrific zero-cost way to support us.
这是支持我们的绝佳零成本方式。
In addition, please subscribe to the podcast on Spotify and Apple.
此外，请订阅 Spotify 和 Apple 上的播客。
On Apple, you can leave us a review, and you can leave us up to a five-star rating.
在 Apple 上，您可以给我们留下评论，并且可以给我们最高五星级的评级。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Please also check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning of the podcast.
另请查看播客开头提到的赞助商。
That's the best way to support this podcast.
这是支持这个播客的最佳方式。
In addition, if you're not already following us on Instagram and Twitter, I teach neuroscience on Instagram and Twitter.
此外，如果您还没有在 Instagram 和 Twitter 上关注我们，我会在 Instagram 和 Twitter 上教授神经科学。
Some of that information covers information covered on the podcast.
其中一些信息涵盖了播客中涵盖的信息。
Some of that information is unique information, and that includes science and science based tools that you can apply in everyday life.
其中一些信息是独特的信息，其中包括您可以在日常生活中应用的科学和基于科学的工具。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I also want to just mention one more time the program that I mentioned at the beginning of the episode, which is Our Breath Collective.
我还想再次提及我在本集开头提到的节目，即“我们的呼吸集体”。
The Our Breath Collective has an advisory board that includes people like Dr. Jack Feldman, where you can learn detailed breathwork protocols.
我们的呼吸集体有一个咨询委员会，其中包括杰克·费尔德曼博士等人，您可以在其中学习详细的呼吸协议。
If you're interested in doing or teaching breathwork, I highly recommend checking it out.
如果您对练习或教授呼吸法感兴趣，我强烈建议您查看一下。
You can find it at ourbreathcollective.com/huberman, and that will give you $10 off your first month.
您可以在 ourbreathcollective.com/huberman 上找到它，第一个月即可享受 10 美元优惠。
I want to thank you, once again, for joining me for my conversation with Dr. Jack Feldman.
我想再次感谢您参加我与杰克·费尔德曼博士的谈话。
Last, but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.
最后但并非最不重要的一点是，感谢您对科学的兴趣。
PART 4 OF 4 ENDS
第 4 部分（共 4 部分）结束