Dr. Immordino-Yang: How Emotions & Social Factors Impact Learning

This transcript version is not in its final form and will be updated.

该文字记录版本并非最终版本，将会更新。

Andrew Huberman: Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.

Andrew Huberman：欢迎来到 Huberman 实验室播客，我们在这里讨论科学和基于科学的日常生活工具。

I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of Neurobiology and Ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.

我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。

Today, my guest is Dr. Mary Helen Immordino-Yang.

今天，我的嘉宾是玛丽·海伦·伊莫迪诺-杨博士。

Dr. Immordino-Yang is a professor of Education, Psychology, and Neuroscience at the University of Southern California.

Immordino-Yang 博士是南加州大学教育学、心理学和神经科学教授。

Her laboratory focuses on emotions and the role of emotions in learning, as well as how social interactions impact how we learn.

她的实验室专注于情绪和情绪在学习中的作用，以及社交互动如何影响我们的学习方式。

Today's discussion is one that I found absolutely fascinating because it will reveal to you, in fact, to all of us, how our temperament, that is, our emotionality, combined with our home environment and the school environments that we were raised in, shape what we know about the world and our concepts of self.

我觉得今天的讨论绝对令人着迷，因为它将向你，事实上，向我们所有人揭示，我们的气质，即我们的情感，与我们成长的家庭环境和学校环境相结合，如何塑造我们对世界的了解和我们的自我概念。

In thinking about that, we also discuss the education system and how different aspects of rules and how we are told to behave and what actually constitutes good behavior or bad behavior shape how we learn information and develop a sense of meaning in life.

在思考这一点时，我们还讨论了教育体系，以及规则的不同方面以及我们被告知如何行为以及实际上构成良好行为或不良行为的因素如何塑造我们学习信息和培养生活意义感的方式。

If any of that sounds abstract, I promise you that today's discussion is incredibly practical.

如果这些听起来很抽象，我向您保证今天的讨论非常实用。

You will learn, for instance, how different styles of learning are going to favor different people from children into adulthood, and how we ought to think about learning in terms of our emotional systems being our guide for what we learn and the information that we retain and how we apply that information throughout life for those of you that are parents, or who are thinking of becoming parents, or who were once children.

例如，你将了解到不同的学习方式将如何有利于从儿童到成年的不同人，以及我们应该如何从情感系统的角度来思考学习，情感系统是我们学习内容和保留信息的指南，以及我们如何在为人父母、正在考虑成为父母或曾经是孩子的人的一生中应用这些信息。

So I believe that encompasses everybody out there.

所以我相信这涵盖了所有人。

Today's discussion will arm you with an intellectual understanding of psychology and neuroscience as it relates to learning, but also practical tools that you can apply in order to be able to learn more effectively.

今天的讨论将帮助您对与学习相关的心理学和神经科学有一个智力上的理解，同时也将提供一些实用工具，您可以应用这些实用工具来更有效地学习。

What I like so much about Dr. Immordino Yang's research and the discussion today is that she frames up beautifully how those who best learn from traditional forms of classroom learning, as well as those who learn from nontraditional forms of learning, either in or out of the classroom, can best use that understanding of self in order to learn in the way that is best for them.

我非常喜欢 Immordino Yang 博士的研究和今天的讨论，因为她完美地阐述了那些最能从传统课堂学习形式中学习的人，以及那些从非传统学习形式中学习的人，无论是在课堂内还是在课堂外，如何能够最好地利用对自我的理解，以便以最适合他们的方式学习。

Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.

在开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。

It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science related tools to the general public.

然而，我的愿望和努力的一部分是向公众提供有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本消费者信息。

In keeping with that theme, I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast.

为了与这个主题保持一致，我要感谢今天播客的赞助商。

Our first sponsor is LMNT.

我们的第一个赞助商是LMNT。

LMNT is an electrolyte drink with everything you need and nothing you don't.

LMNT 是一种电解质饮料，包含您需要的一切，没有您不需要的东西。

That means plenty of salt, magnesium, and potassium.

这意味着大量的盐、镁和钾。

The so called electrolytes and no sugar.

所谓电解质，无糖。

Now, salt, magnesium and potassium are critical to the function of all the cells in your body, in particular to the function of your nerve cells, also called neurons.

现在，盐、镁和钾对于体内所有细胞的功能至关重要，特别是对于神经细胞（也称为神经元）的功能。

In fact, in order for your neurons to function properly, all three electrolytes need to be present in the proper ratios.

事实上，为了使神经元正常运作，所有三种电解质都需要以适当的比例存在。

And we now know that even slight reductions in electrolyte concentrations or dehydration of the body can lead to deficits in cognitive and physical performance.

我们现在知道，即使电解质浓度轻微降低或身体脱水也会导致认知和身体表现缺陷。

LMNT contains a science backed electrolyte ratio of 1000 milligrams.

LMNT 含有科学支持的电解质比例为 1000 毫克。

That's 1 gram of sodium, 200 milligrams of potassium, and 60 milligrams of magnesium.

即 1 克钠、200 毫克钾和 60 毫克镁。

I typically drink LMNT first thing in the morning when I wake up in order to hydrate my body and make sure I have enough electrolytes.

我通常早上起床后第一件事就是喝 LMNT，为身体补充水分并确保有足够的电解质。

And while I do any kind of physical training and after physical training as well, especially if I've been sweating a lot, if you'd like to try LMNT, you can go to drinklmnt, that's L-M-N-T, .com/huberman to claim a free element sample pack with your purchase.

当我进行任何类型的体能训练时以及体能训练后，特别是当我出汗很多时，如果您想尝试 LMNT，您可以前往 Drinklmnt，即 L-M-N-T，.com/huberman，在购买时索取免费元素样品包。

Again, that's drinklmnt.com/huberman.

再说一遍，这是 Drinklmnt.com/huberman。

Today's episode is also brought to us by waking up.

今天的剧情也是由醒醒给我们带来的。

Waking Up is a meditation app that includes hundreds of meditation programs, mindfulness trainings, Yoga Nidra sessions, and NSDR nonsleep deep rest protocols.

Waking Up 是一款冥想应用程序，其中包括数百个冥想计划、正念训练、瑜伽休息课程和 NSDR 非睡眠深度休息方案。

I started using the Waking Up app a few years ago because even though I've been doing regular meditations since my teens and I started doing Yoga Nidra about a decade ago, my dad mentioned to me that he had found an app, turned out to be the Waking Up app, which could teach you meditations of different durations, and that had a lot of different types of meditations to place the brain and body into different states, and that he liked it very much.

我几年前开始使用Waking Up应用程序，因为尽管我从十几岁起就开始定期冥想，大约十年前开始做瑜伽休息术，但我爸爸向我提到他找到了一个应用程序，结果是Waking Up应用程序，它可以教你不同持续时间的冥想，并且有很多不同类型的冥想，可以让大脑和身体进入不同的状态，他非常喜欢它。

So I gave the Waking Up app a try, and I too found it to be extremely useful because sometimes I only have a few minutes to meditate, other times I have longer to meditate.

所以我尝试了Wake Up应用程序，我也发现它非常有用，因为有时我只有几分钟的时间来冥想，其他时候我有更长的时间来冥想。

And indeed, I love the fact that I can explore different types of meditation to bring about different levels of understanding about consciousness, but also to place my brain and body into lots of different kinds of states depending on which meditation I do.

事实上，我喜欢这样一个事实：我可以探索不同类型的冥想，以带来对意识的不同层次的理解，而且还可以根据我进行的冥想将我的大脑和身体置于许多不同的状态。

I also love that the Waking Up app has lots of different types of Yoga Nidra sessions.

我还喜欢“唤醒”应用程序有许多不同类型的瑜伽休息课程。

For those of you who don't know, Yoga Nidra is a process of lying very still but keeping an active mind.

对于那些不知道的人来说，瑜伽休息术是一个安静地躺着但保持活跃思维的过程。

It's very different than most meditations, and there's excellent scientific data to show that Yoga Nidra and something similar to it called Non Sleep Deep Rest, or NSDR, can greatly restore levels of cognitive and physical energy, even with just a short ten minute session.

它与大多数冥想有很大不同，并且有出色的科学数据表明，瑜伽休息术和类似的非睡眠深度休息（NSDR）可以极大地恢复认知和身体能量水平，即使只有短短的十分钟疗程。

If you'd like to try the Waking Up app, you can go to wakingup.com/huberman and access a free 30 day trial.

如果您想尝试 Waking Up 应用程序，可以访问 wakingup.com/huberman 并免费试用 30 天。

Again, that's wakingup.com/huberman to access a free 30 day trial.

再次强调，访问 wakingup.com/huberman 即可获得 30 天免费试用。

And now for my discussion with Dr. Mary Helen Immordino-Yang.

现在我与 Mary Helen Immordino-Yang 博士进行讨论。

Dr. Immordino-Yang.

伊莫迪诺-杨博士。

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang: Good to be here.

玛丽·海伦·伊莫迪诺-杨：很高兴来到这里。

Andrew Huberman: Great to have you.

安德鲁·休伯曼：很高兴有你。

I'd like to start off talking about something that, to me, seems a little bit high level, but I think is the perfect jumping off point.

我想首先谈论一些对我来说似乎有点高水平的事情，但我认为这是一个完美的起点。

I've heard you talk before about inspiration and awe.

我以前听过你谈论灵感和敬畏。

And as somebody who's interested in the brain and as somebody who's interested in the role of emotions and learning and life experience, inspiration and awe seem to me rather high level emotional experiences compared to, say, fear or happiness.

作为一个对大脑感兴趣的人，以及一个对情感、学习和生活经历的作用感兴趣的人，在我看来，与恐惧或幸福相比，灵感和敬畏似乎是相当高级的情感体验。

And yet, inspiration and awe just seem so fundamental to how we learn and navigate life.

然而，灵感和敬畏似乎对于我们学习和驾驭生活至关重要。

And before we started recording, we were talking about David Goggins, of all people, and we'll get back to that.

在我们开始录音之前，我们谈论的是所有人中的大卫·戈金斯，我们稍后会回到这个话题。

But if you could just share with us what is the role of inspiration and awe and story in how we learn and experience life starting at a young age, and then maybe we can transition to older ages.

但如果你能与我们分享灵感、敬畏和故事在我们如何从年轻时开始学习和体验生活中的作用，那么也许我们可以过渡到老年。

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang: Yeah, I think what you've noticed is actually fundamental to the conundrum of being a human is that our most high level complex brain states, mind states, are also fundamentally hooking themselves into the most basic biological machinery that, literally, we share with alligators, that keeps us alive.

玛丽·海伦·伊莫迪诺-杨：是的，我认为你已经注意到，作为人类的难题实际上是最根本的，那就是我们最高水平的复杂大脑状态、精神状态，也从根本上将自己与最基本的生物机制挂钩，从字面上看，我们与鳄鱼共享这些生物机制，使我们能够生存。

And that is both the power and the potential of being a human and the danger of it.

这既是人类的力量和潜力，也是人类的危险。

So our beliefs, our experiences, our interpretations of the meaning of things, which, that's where the story comes in, the stories that we conjure about collectively with other people, culturally, in spaces inside our own selves also, those stories become kind of the through line that organizes the way in which we construct our own experience consciousness, even, I would say.

因此，我们的信仰、我们的经历、我们对事物意义的解释，这就是故事的用武之地，我们在文化上、在我们自己内部的空间中与其他人一起想象的故事，这些故事甚至成为组织我们构建我们自己的体验意识的方式的贯穿线，甚至，我想说。

So, when we hook into those very basic survival systems, by recruiting them into these narratives about the nature of reality, the power of the meaning we make, what happens is we get this amazingly, both fundamental and high level state simultaneously where we feel expansive.

因此，当我们融入这些非常基本的生存系统时，通过将它们纳入有关现实本质、我们所创造的意义的力量的叙述中，会发生的事情是，我们同时获得了这种令人惊讶的、基本的和高层次的状态，让我们感到广阔。

We feel like it's all so incredibly beautiful.

我们觉得这一切都是那么的美丽。

And we are, I would argue, actually ramping into or catching into the very basic survival mechanisms that make us conscious, that make us alive.

我认为，我们实际上正在进入或陷入使我们有意识、使我们活着的最基本的生存机制。

And that's, in essence, the power of being a human.

从本质上讲，这就是作为人类的力量。

That's the power of our intelligence at this late stage in our evolution.

这就是我们在进化的后期阶段的智力的力量。

Andrew Huberman: So when I was a kid, I loved stories of all kinds.

安德鲁·胡伯曼：所以当我还是个孩子的时候，我喜欢各种各样的故事。

I think, like most kids, I loved my Curious George books.

我想，像大多数孩子一样，我喜欢《好奇的乔治》这本书。

I'm told I liked the Babar books, but then quickly didn't like the Babar books.

有人告诉我我喜欢巴巴尔的书，但很快就不喜欢巴巴尔的书了。

I liked the book Where the Red Fern Grows.

我喜欢《红蕨生长的地方》这本书。

I liked books and stories about it, generally was boys for me, for whatever reason, that had some idea in mind or some ongoing challenge and that played out over time and the character evolves across the story.

我喜欢有关它的书籍和故事，对我来说通常是男孩，无论出于何种原因，他们心里有一些想法或一些持续的挑战，并且随着时间的推移而展开，角色在故事中不断演变。

And of course, many excellent stories have all those features.

当然，许多优秀的故事都具备这些特征。

I can recall specific passages in those books to this day that made me feel something in my body.

直到今天，我还记得那些书中的特定段落，这些段落让我在身体里感受到了某种东西。

I actually am very familiar with the sensation of having chills go up my spine as opposed to down my spine.

事实上，我非常熟悉脊椎发冷的感觉，而不是沿着脊椎向下的感觉。

Early on, I realized, oh, there's sort of a difference.

很早就，我意识到，哦，这是有区别的。

Sometimes it travels up my spine, sometimes I still haven't distinguished what that orients me to or away from, but it's a very salient memory and experience for me to this day.

有时它会沿着我的脊柱向上移动，有时我仍然无法区分是什么引导我走向或远离，但直到今天，这对我来说仍然是一个非常重要的记忆和经历。

So much so that as I'm describing the book Where the Red Fern Grows right now, I can kind of feel it starting.

以至于当我现在描述《红蕨生长的地方》这本书时，我能感觉到它的开始。

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang: Yeah.

玛丽·海伦·伊莫迪诺-杨：是的。

Andrew Huberman: I've heard you say before, and I love this quote, and I want to make sure that you get attribution for this, not me, that we basically have a brain to control our body.

安德鲁·休伯曼：我以前听你说过，我喜欢这句话，我想确保你而不是我，我们基本上有一个大脑来控制我们的身体。

What is the role of the brain in controlling the body, and do you think that there are an infinite number of ways in which our brain does that?

大脑在控制身体方面发挥什么作用？您认为我们的大脑有无数种控制身体的方式吗？

Or are we really talking about a language between brain and body, of tingles on the back of our neck that go up, tingles on the back of our neck that go down, stomach feeling kind of tight and making us cringe away or kind of warm and wanting to approach?

或者我们真的在谈论大脑和身体之间的一种语言，脖子后面向上的刺痛感，向下的刺痛感，胃部感觉有点紧，让我们畏缩，或者有点温暖，想要接近？

In other words, do you think that the conversation between the brain and body is primitive, sophisticated?

换句话说，你认为大脑和身体之间的对话是原始的、复杂的吗？

How nuanced is it?

它有多微妙？

Because language is very nuanced.

因为语言是非常微妙的。

We could probably come up with 50 words just in English for the state of being happy.

我们大概可以用英语想出 50 个单词来表达幸福的状态。

But the feeling of being happy, I experience along a continuum of a little bit happy to elated, but it's kind of one thing, really.

但是幸福的感觉，我经历了从一点点幸福到兴高采烈的连续过程，但这确实是一回事。

So if you would, could you comment on this notion of the brain being the organ that's responsible for controlling the body and what that dialogue is like, what the syllables and consonants of it are like?

那么，如果您愿意，您能否评论一下大脑是负责控制身体的器官的概念，以及对话是什么样的，它的音节和辅音是什么样的？

Perhaps not at the level of biology, but at the level of psychology and how we subjectively experience that?

也许不是在生物学层面，而是在心理学层面，以及我们如何主观地体验这一点？

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang: Sure.

玛丽·海伦·伊莫迪诺-杨：当然。

So the first thing I'll say is that I learned that idea from working with Antonio Damasio.

所以我要说的第一件事是我从与安东尼奥·达马西奥的合作中学到了这个想法。

So he was my postdoctoral mentor, and he taught me first that this notion that it's the feeling of the body, it's an organism's ability to represent or map the state of the interior and exterior of the body that becomes the substrate for consciousness and for the mind.

所以他是我的博士后导师，他首先教我这个概念，即身体的感觉，有机体代表或映射身体内部和外部状态的能力，成为意识和心灵的基础。

So I would just want to give him credit because I didn't think of that first.

所以我只想赞扬他，因为我首先没有想到这一点。

But the work that I've been doing is an elaboration of that.

但我一直在做的工作是对此的详细阐述。

It's basically addressing exactly the question that you're asking, which is, how is it that we construct a narrative, construct a conscious feeling, which that word I take from Antonio and Hanna Damasio.

它基本上准确地解决了你所问的问题，即我们如何构建一个叙述，构建一种有意识的感觉，这个词是我从安东尼奥和汉娜·达马西奥那里借用的。

How is it that we construct a feeling and sort of narratize that feeling, elaborate that feeling into something that feels like a narrative, that feels like a belief state or an emotion state or an experience?

我们是如何构建一种感觉并叙述这种感觉，将这种感觉阐述成感觉像是一种叙述，感觉像是一种信念状态或情绪状态或一种体验的东西？

I mean, that in a very verb-like way.

我的意思是，以一种非常类似动词的方式。

And what is the role of embodiment in that?

体现在其中的作用是什么？

What is the role of the brain in that?

大脑在其中扮演什么角色？

And what also is the role of the culture and the cultural context and other people in that?

文化、文化背景和其他人在其中扮演什么角色？

Because what we're really learning across the sciences right now is just how incredibly social and interdependent our species is.

因为我们现在通过科学真正了解到的是我们的物种是多么令人难以置信的社会性和相互依存性。

I mean, our biology is inherently a social one.

我的意思是，我们的生物学本质上是一种社会生物学。

We are directly dependent on other people for the formulation of our own sense of self.

我们直接依赖于其他人来形成我们自己的自我意识。

And we interact with one another and construct and co-construct a sense of self and a sense of meaning via those cultural spaces and those sort of nuanced ways of accommodating each other mentally and physically that lead to the feeling of "us."

我们彼此互动，通过这些文化空间以及那些在精神上和身体上相互适应的微妙方式，构建和共同构建一种自我意识和意义感，从而产生“我们”的感觉。

So back to your original question.

那么回到你原来的问题。

There's a lot we don't know there.

那里有很多我们不知道的事情。

But I think what's very clear is that the kind of background sense of the body, the mapping and the regulation of the body is a basic substrate, a kind of trampoline for the mind.

但我认为非常清楚的是，身体的那种背景感、身体的映射和调节是一个基本的基底，是心灵的一种蹦床。

And so we are managing our survival.

所以我们正在管理我们的生存。

We now have lots of evidence from across many kinds of science about the interdependence of our stress and social relationships and our immunity and our ability to digest food.

现在，我们有来自多种科学的大量证据，证明我们的压力、社会关系、我们的免疫力和消化食物的能力之间的相互依赖性。

And it's even now very clear that it's not even just us.

即使现在也很清楚，这不仅仅是我们。

There's a whole microbiome and all kinds of other organisms that are assisting us in that, and that are collaborating with us in that.

有一个完整的微生物组和各种其他生物体在这方面帮助我们，并在这方面与我们合作。

And then the brain is a specialized organ of the body.

然后大脑是身体的一个特殊器官。

In fact, it's not a separate thing.

事实上，这不是一个单独的事情。

It's an outgrowth or an elaboration of that process.

它是该过程的产物或细化。

It's a specialization of that process, a localization of it in a way that provides enough processing power to be able to really construct all kinds of feelings and mental states and beliefs and imaginings out of basically just the feeling of being here.

这是这个过程的专业化，以一种提供足够处理能力的方式对其进行本地化，以便能够真正构建出各种感觉、精神状态、信念和想象，基本上只是从这里的感觉中获得。

And then the amazing part is that our brain is also imposing those back down onto our bodies.

令人惊奇的是，我们的大脑也将这些强加到我们的身体上。

So the way in which our body reacts and is modulated in response to mental states is also very real.

因此，我们的身体对精神状态的反应和调节方式也是非常真实的。

So we have a kind of like a dynamic conversation happening that's happening in very raw and direct ways, neurochemically and others, and also in broader, longer term, slower, fluctuating patterns around other kinds of hormonal changes and things like that.

所以我们有一种动态的对话，它以非常原始和直接的方式发生，神经化学和其他方式，而且也以更广泛、更长期、更缓慢、围绕其他荷尔蒙变化等的波动模式发生。

So along multiple timescales simultaneously, we have a kind of whole.

因此，同时沿着多个时间尺度，我们有一个整体。

A humanistic whole of brain and body and mind that are kind of co conjuring one another in real time.

大脑、身体和思想的人文整体，实时地相互召唤。

And that leads to all kinds of dynamic possibility spaces for how we are and how we feel as we grow through time.

随着时间的推移，这会导致我们的生活方式和感受产生各种动态的可能性空间。

And I think, as humans, the legacy of our intelligence is to tap into those possibility spaces and start to construct them into meaningful, sort of, chains of ideas, chains of experiences over time that we call story.

我认为，作为人类，我们的智力遗产就是挖掘这些可能性空间，并开始将它们构建成有意义的、某种思想链、随着时间的推移而形成的经验链，我们称之为故事。

And that, I think, is what you were tapping into as a little boy.

我想，这就是你小时候所接触到的。

You were hungry for fodder, for a kind of structure for those feelings that you could start to help them evolve from one into the other and chain them together in ways that produce meaning.

你渴望找到素材，渴望一种能够容纳这些感受的结构，你可以开始帮助它们从一种发展到另一种，并以产生意义的方式将它们链接在一起。

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, I'm fascinated by the idea that early in life, we experience some interaction with the world.

安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman）：是的，我对生命早期的想法很着迷，我们会经历与世界的一些互动。

It could be with other people, could be with an object in the world, and it makes us feel something powerful.

它可以与其他人在一起，也可以与世界上的某个物体在一起，它让我们感受到某种强大的力量。

And that lays a template of recognition, meaning that later in life, and perhaps throughout life, we're always consciously or subconsciously going back to trying to experience that same kind of awe or inspiration.

这奠定了一个认可的模板，意味着在以后的生活中，也许在一生中，我们总是有意识或无意识地回去尝试体验同样的敬畏或灵感。

Because, again, the circumstances almost certainly vary from being a five year old to being an adolescent and into adulthood and into the, I guess the geriatric years.

因为，从五岁到青少年，再到成年，再到老年，我想，情况几乎肯定会有所不同。

Do they still call it that?

他们还这么称呼它吗？

I probably used a politically incorrect term, but, forgive me, 75 to 125.

我可能使用了一个政治上不正确的术语，但是请原谅我，75 比 125。

And yet the feeling is the same, right?

但感觉还是一样的，对吧？

And so it's as if a word can mean the same thing but be used 50 different ways, maybe 5000 different ways to represent, in this analogy, I'm saying that the word is the feeling.

因此，就好像一个词可以表示相同的事物，但可以用 50 种不同的方式使用，也许有 5000 种不同的方式来表示，在这个类比中，我说这个词就是感觉。

And it's used so many different ways because occasionally I'll read a scientific manuscript and, that is so cool, it's the same way that I felt when I was nine years old and I spent all my time in the pet store looking at tropical fish and tropical birds and thinking, oh, my God, that freshwater discus fish is the coolest thing I've ever seen.

它有很多不同的用途，因为偶尔我会读一篇科学手稿，这太酷了，这和我九岁时的感受是一样的，我把所有的时间都花在宠物店里看着热带鱼和热带鸟类，心想，哦，天哪，淡水七彩神仙鱼是我见过的最酷的东西。

And again, I think I must have a strong memory for these kinds of things because I feel it right now in my body.

再说一次，我想我一定对这些事情有很强的记忆力，因为我现在就在我的身体里感受到了它。

So it's as if the same thing maps to so many different circumstances.

所以就好像同一件事映射到许多不同的情况。

So is what we're learning across the lifespan a recognition of feelings in our body as this is something I like because of the way it makes my body feel, or is it cognitive or both?

那么，我们在整个生命周期中学到的东西是对我们身体感受的认识，因为这是我喜欢的东西，因为它让我的身体有感觉，还是认知或两者兼而有之？

From your answer a moment ago, it seems like it's so interconnected and bi-directional and fast that it's impossible to really say that feelings are in the body or in the brain.

从你刚才的回答来看，它似乎是如此相互关联、双向和快速，以至于不可能真正说感觉是在身体中还是在大脑中。

It's really happening simultaneously.

这确实是同时发生的。

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang: Yeah.

玛丽·海伦·伊莫迪诺-杨：是的。

It's a dynamic emergent state.

这是一种动态的紧急状态。

Let me give you an example that I use sometimes to help myself understand the notion.

让我举一个我有时用来帮助自己理解这个概念的例子。

My little daughter, Nora, when she was two and some months, two and four months, something like that, she's a very verbal kid, and I was sitting in the kitchen one day drinking a cup of tea.

我的小女儿诺拉（Nora），当她两岁多月，两岁多月，类似的时候，她是一个非常爱说话的孩子，有一天我坐在厨房里喝一杯茶。

I was sad about something that happened in my life, but I wasn't weeping or anything.

我为生活中发生的事情感到难过，但我没有哭泣或其他任何事情。

I was just sitting there.

我只是坐在那里。

I must have looked kind of lost in my own thoughts.

我一定看起来有点迷失在自己的思绪中。

She's playing around on the floor.

她正在地板上玩耍。

She came over to me.

她向我走过来。

I'll never forget it.

我永远不会忘记它。

This tiny little person.

这个小小的人儿。

She comes over to me and noticed I wasn't really there with her, you know, what I mean?

她走到我身边，发现我并没有真正陪在她身边，你知道我的意思吗？

And she, my arm was hanging down.

而她，我的手臂垂了下来。

She picked up my arm, and she held it against her face like that.

她拿起我的手臂，就这样靠在自己的脸上。

And she said, I won't say it in baby talk because you won't understand.

她说，我不会用儿语说出来，因为你听不懂。

But she said, "don't worry, Mama.

但她说：“妈妈，别担心。

I'll take care of you."

我会照顾你的。”

Andrew Huberman: Amazing.

安德鲁·休伯曼：太棒了。

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang: And I said, oh, Nora, that's so sweet, sweetie.

玛丽·海伦·伊莫迪诺-杨：我说，哦，诺拉，那真是太好了，亲爱的。

I'll take care of you, too.

我也会照顾你的。

And she said, "Mama, I will weally love you.

她说：“妈妈，我会非常爱你。

I weally love you.

我非常爱你。

And then she said, I mean, I weally love your arm.

然后她说，我的意思是，我非常喜欢你的手臂。

I weally love your arm.”

我非常喜欢你的手臂。”

Fast forward two years later, almost exactly two years, she's four in a couple of months.

快进两年后，几乎整整两年，几个月后她就四岁了。

And she was in bed one night, laying in her bed in the dark.

一天晚上，她躺在床上，黑暗中躺在床上。

And I walked by, and I listened at the door to see if she was asleep in there.

我走过去，在门口听听她是否在里面睡着了。

And I hear this little whisper comes out, and she says, "Mama, I love you more than I'm glad that there's daytime."

我听见她轻声细语，她说：“妈妈，我爱你胜过因为现在是白天而高兴。”

What's changed developmentally from her at age two to her at age four?

从她两岁时到四岁时，她的发育发生了哪些变化？

I would argue that the physiological substrate of her attachment to her mother is probably quite similar.

我认为她对母亲依恋的生理基础可能非常相似。

She had this sort of visceral, automatic, biological, you might say, attachment connection to me emotionally that she was trying to leverage in the service of making sense, of being active in that world and adapting herself to the situation.

你可能会说，她在情感上对我有一种发自内心的、自动的、生物性的依恋联系，她试图利用这种联系来理解、活跃在那个世界并让自己适应这种情况。

Helping me in the first case, but what's changed remarkably is not the substrate of that attachment.

在第一种情况下对我有帮助，但显着改变的并不是那个执着的基础。

It's her ability to conceptualize it.

这是她将其概念化的能力。

When she's two, her love is experienced as this incredibly concrete, embodied, real, physical thing, like, I love you.

当她两岁的时候，她的爱被体验为一种极其具体、具体、真实、有形的东西，比如，我爱你。

I mean, I really love the body part I am currently smooshing against my face.

我的意思是，我真的很喜欢我现在贴在脸上的身体部位。

Whereas two years later, she can conceptualize that love in terms of an idea, which is, wouldn't it be awful if there was nighttime all the time and there was no sunshine and daylight and I couldn't go out to play and I couldn't write?

而两年后，她可以把这份爱概念化为一个想法，那就是，如果一直都是黑夜，没有阳光和白天，不能出去玩，不能写作，那不是很糟糕吗？

Andrew Huberman: You're describing my biggest fear.

安德鲁·休伯曼：你描述的是我最大的恐惧。

Listeners of this podcast will know that I'm going to go into the grave, hopefully a long time from now, telling people to get morning sunlight in their eyes.

这个播客的听众会知道我将进入坟墓，希望在很长一段时间后，告诉人们让早晨的阳光进入他们的眼睛。

I know I still do it, but please continue.

我知道我仍然这样做，但请继续。

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang: No, but that's right.

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang：不，但确实如此。

So she's thinking about how much she is grateful for there to be sunlight.

所以她在想，她是多么感激有阳光。

And in her little mind, she connected that to the feeling of being attached to me and used one to explain the other, so that both things now have meaning.

在她小小的头脑里，她把这与依恋我的感觉联系起来，并用一个来解释另一个，所以现在这两件事都有意义了。

And that is the way I think that we start to elaborate these very basic physiological attachment states, aversion states.

我认为这就是我们开始阐述这些非常基本的生理依恋状态、厌恶状态的方式。

Motivational states of various sorts into mental states, beliefs, poems, love songs, all the things that she does even between age two and age four, that really are mental elaborations, meaning, making of that very physiologically basic sensation.

各种各样的动机状态，包括精神状态、信仰、诗歌、情歌，以及她在两岁到四岁之间所做的所有事情，这些实际上是精神上的阐述、意义，是生理上基本感觉的形成。

Does that answer your question?

这能回答你的问题吗？

Andrew Huberman: It answers it incredibly clearly, and so much so that I'd like to continue to build on that example because I think it's very relatable for people.

Andrew Huberman：它的答案非常清晰，以至于我想继续以这个例子为基础，因为我认为它与人们非常相关。

And it's the first time that I've ever heard the embodiment of emotions described in a developmental framework that truly makes sense.

这是我第一次听到在真正有意义的发展框架中描述的情感体现。

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang: Oh, good.

玛丽·海伦·伊莫迪诺-杨：哦，很好。

Andrew Huberman: So, thank you.

安德鲁·胡伯曼：所以，谢谢。

So the contact with your arm or your arm or both was the life example that she was using as a two year old that maps to an internal feeling.

因此，与你的手臂或你的手臂或两者的接触是她在两岁的时候使用的生活例子，映射到一种内在的感觉。

And we're going to assume she's not here, we don't have her in a brain scanner, we can't ask her.

我们假设她不在这里，我们没有对她进行脑部扫描，我们不能问她。

But we're going to assume that her experience of being put to bed at night and feeling so much love from and for you map to her then growing understanding of the world around her, the fact that there's day and night and sunshine.

但我们会假设她在晚上被送上床睡觉并感受到来自你的爱和对你的爱的经历映射到她对周围世界的不断增长的理解，即有白天、黑夜和阳光的事实。

So as her knowledge base grows, she can add examples to the feeling.

因此，随着她的知识基础的增长，她可以为这种感觉添加例子。

And I'm assuming that doesn't matter how old she is now, but I'm assuming that as a 14 year old, the knowledge base is going to be different, and it's going to map to that feeling again and again.

我假设她现在多大了并不重要，但我假设作为一个 14 岁的女孩，知识基础将会有所不同，并且会一次又一次地映射到那种感觉。

So the question is, is what we are doing across the lifespan is recognizing, sort of, I don't want to call them primitives, but basic emotional states which are not infinite, but can be each one along a continuum.

所以问题是，我们在整个生命周期中所做的就是识别，有点，我不想称它们为原始状态，而是基本的情绪状态，它们不是无限的，但可以是一个连续体中的每一个。

So a little bit of love, completely in love, along a continuum, and everything in between, a little angry and annoyed to completely furious.

所以一点点的爱，完全的爱，沿着一个连续体，以及介于两者之间的一切，一点生气和恼火到完全愤怒。

Are we talking about maybe 10 to 30 core emotions that then we are just simply binning our experiences into and onto and mapping onto, and then that's our life story?

我们是否在谈论也许 10 到 30 种核心情感，然后我们只是简单地将我们的经历放入、映射到其中，然后这就是我们的生活故事？

And I'm not trying to oversimplify things, but that seems to me like a pretty great way for a nervous system to navigate a world that is infinitely complex and has a lot of surprise, both positive and negative, and in which, like every organism, our main goal is to survive as long as possible, and not for everybody, but in many cases, to try and make more of ourselves.

我并不是想把事情过于简单化，但在我看来，这对于神经系统来说是一种很好的方式，可以驾驭一个无限复杂、充满惊喜的世界，无论是积极的还是消极的，在这个世界中，像每个有机体一样，我们的主要目标是尽可能长久地生存，不是为了每个人，而是在很多情况下，努力让自己变得更好。

Those seem to be the basic, drive, survive and make more of oneself.

这些似乎是基本的、驱动力、生存和让自己变得更好。

It seems to be the two basic functions of every--

这似乎是每个人的两个基本功能——

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang: --In some ways, it could be more of your ideas or more of your work or more of your art.

玛丽·海伦·伊莫迪诺-杨：——在某些方面，它可能更多的是你的想法，更多的是你的作品，更多的是你的艺术。

Andrew Huberman: Exactly.

安德鲁·休伯曼：没错。

So is that an overly simplistic way to think about it, or does it work?

那么这种思考方式是否过于简单，或者是否有效？

Even if there's more that needs to be added?

即使还有更多需要添加的内容？

Does that work?

那有用吗？

As a 20 year old, I learned things in college, and I'm like, this is awesome.

作为一个 20 岁的人，我在大学学到了一些东西，我想，这太棒了。

The first time I learned about the hypothalamus, this little marble sized structure and the fact that different neurons sitting right next to each other can put us into a rage or will make us want to mate or will make us thirsty or hungry or tired.

我第一次了解下丘脑，这个大理石大小的小结构，以及彼此相邻的不同神经元的事实，可以让我们愤怒，或者让我们想要交配，或者让我们口渴、饥饿或疲倦。

I was, I mean, it just blew me away.

我是，我的意思是，它让我震惊。

It still blows me away.

它仍然让我震惊。

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang: Yeah.

玛丽·海伦·伊莫迪诺-杨：是的。

Andrew Huberman: But the feeling is the same as looking at the discus fish in Monet's pet shop on California Avenue when I'm nine years old.

Andrew Huberman：但那种感觉就像我九岁时在加州大道莫奈宠物店里看到七彩鱼一样。

So is that the way to think about it?

那么这是思考问题的方式吗？

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang: Yes.

玛丽·海伦·伊莫迪诺-杨：是的。

I think there's an awful lot of basic physiological mechanisms that become motivational mechanisms, in all the senses, adaptive mechanisms that we share with all life forms, not even just all animals, but all life forms.

我认为有很多基本的生理机制在所有意义上都成为激励机制，适应性机制，我们与所有生命形式共享，甚至不仅仅是所有动物，而是所有生命形式。

But they look different in different life forms, for sure, because the adaptive functions, the timescales and everything are different, if you're a tree, than if you're a fish, than if you're a slime mold or you're me, right?

但它们在不同的生命形式中看起来是不同的，这是肯定的，因为适应性功能、时间尺度和一切都是不同的，如果你是一棵树，与你是一条鱼，与如果你是粘菌或你是我，对吧？

But I think you're right that what we basically are doing is taking these very primitive physiological, regulatory capacities that are essentially there to keep you alive.

但我认为你是对的，我们基本上所做的就是利用这些非常原始的生理调节能力，这些能力本质上是为了让你活下去。

And that's a very dynamic thing, to keep you alive.

这是一件非常有活力的事情，可以让你保持活力。

You have to constantly adjust for the needs of the internal organism, the needs of the external, the demands of the external environment on that organism, and being able to manage in that space over time is a very complex, dynamic, kind of iterative process.

你必须不断调整内部有机体的需求、外部的需求、外部环境对该有机体的需求，并且能够随着时间的推移在该空间中进行管理是一个非常复杂的、动态的、迭代的过程。

And we take those processes and we conjure out of them a form of consciousness, an awareness of those processes that becomes something that feels mentally powerful to us.

我们利用这些过程，并从中召唤出一种意识形式，对这些过程的认识，使我们感觉精神上强大。

And I think one of the ways that we can know that what you're saying is right, is that this was just our first experiment on this, but I think it's really poignant.

我认为我们可以知道你所说的是正确的方法之一是，这只是我们对此的第一次实验，但我认为这真的很令人心酸。

We first started to study the ways people would react to social stimuli, to have emotions like compassion or admiration in the MRI scanner, by telling people stories of true people's situations that invoked these emotions in all kinds of piloting.

我们首先开始研究人们对社会刺激的反应方式，在核磁共振扫描仪中产生同情或钦佩等情绪，方法是向人们讲述在各种飞行员中引发这些情绪的真实情况的故事。

And then we ask people, how does it make you feel?

然后我们问人们，这让你感觉如何？

And then we can see whether they actually feel that way.

然后我们可以看看他们是否真的有这种感觉。

And then we move them into the MRI scanner and ask them again to watch the story and feel it.

然后我们将他们移入核磁共振扫描仪，再次要求他们观看故事并感受它。

And what we expected, we had some very basic hypotheses, that things like watching somebody else endure physical pain would activate the same systems in your brain that allow you to feel physical pain.

正如我们所期望的，我们有一些非常基本的假设，比如看着别人忍受身体疼痛之类的事情会激活你大脑中让你感受到身体疼痛的相同系统。

And the same with pleasure around admiration for skill, watching somebody do flips on their bike on a railroad tie or whatever it is, or virtue.

同样的，还有对技巧的钦佩、观看某人在铁路枕木上翻转自行车或其他任何东西或美德的快乐。

Watching a civil rights leader or somebody who does something that's incredibly, virtuously powerful, but not physically skilled.

看着一位民权领袖或某个人做了一些令人难以置信的、有道德的力量，但身体素质不佳的人。

And we had a real surprise in those findings, which I think really went against the prevailing notion of how emotion works, and which is still something which I wrestle with trying to understand.

我们对这些发现感到非常惊讶，我认为这确实违背了情绪如何运作的流行观念，这仍然是我努力理解的事情。

So we hypothesized that feeling emotions about very physical, direct things, and feeling emotions about, here I'm like drawing them in space, but feeling emotions about complex, elaborated things like compassion for someone having lost a spouse or something, where you don't see any real physical pain, but you can imagine how they're feeling based on your shared experience of loss or admiration for virtue, that those things would build neurobiologically the way that they build developmentally the way that they build evolutionarily.

所以我们假设，对非常物理的、直接的事物的感受情绪，以及对这里我把它们画在太空中的感受情绪，但对复杂的、精心设计的事物感受情绪，比如对失去配偶的人的同情之类的，你看不到任何真正的身体痛苦，但你可以根据你们共同的失去或对美德的钦佩的经历来想象他们的感受，这些东西将以神经生物学的方式构建，就像它们进化构建的方式一样。

And we did find that to be the case, and many other groups and experiments have found that, too.

我们确实发现情况确实如此，许多其他小组和实验也发现了这一点。

But what was a real surprise to us is that emotions based in pain and emotions based in something rewarding or pleasurable, like virtue, which is really inspiring as people describe it, we're actually recruiting the same brain systems, including the hypothalamus and other systems like the anterior insula, which is basically visceral, somatomotor cortex.

但真正令我们惊讶的是，基于痛苦的情绪和基于奖励或愉悦的情绪，比如美德，正如人们所描述的那样，这确实令人鼓舞，我们实际上正在招募相同的大脑系统，包括下丘脑和其他系统，如前岛叶，它基本上是内脏的躯体运动皮层。

It's cortex that feels the state of how you're digesting your lunch, whether your heart's pounding, all these kinds of things.

大脑皮层可以感知你消化午餐的状态、你的心脏是否跳动等等。

What we found is that these emotions, when they get complex, when they're about stories, the valence is no longer the defining feature.

我们发现，当这些情感变得复杂时，当它们与故事有关时，效价就不再是决定性的特征。

The valence doesn't even matter that much.

化合价甚至没有那么重要。

Instead, what matters is, does the emotion pertain to a story that is conjured in our minds, or does it mainly pertain to what you can directly witness by looking at the person?

相反，重要的是，这种情感是否与我们脑海中浮现的故事有关，或者主要与您通过观察这个人可以直接目睹的内容有关？

So they step off a curb, they break their ankle, and you go, oh, that looks like it really hurt, right?

所以他们从路边走下来，扭断了脚踝，然后你会觉得，哦，看起来真的很疼，对吧？

Versus they're eating dinner alone in a restaurant, and somebody tells you his spouse died just a month ago, where you have to tell yourself an entire story about how he must be feeling in that situation as compared to just looking at him and seeing the ankle and going, ooh.

与他们独自在餐厅吃晚饭相比，有人告诉你他的配偶一个月前去世了，你必须告诉自己一个完整的故事，告诉自己他在那种情况下的感受，而不是仅仅看着他，看到脚踝，然后，哦。

And it was that leap, which is really uniquely human, which is fully developed, really, throughout a very protracted period.

正是这种飞跃，确实是人类独有的，实际上是在一个非常漫长的时期内得到充分发展的。

Little children do not fully appreciate those kinds of mental states yet, and in adolescence, kids are all about trying to conjure and simulate these things, and they overdo it, and they do it in these very sort of awkward ways that adults recognize as not likely to correspond fully to reality.

小孩子还没有完全理解这些心理状态，在青春期，孩子们总是试图想象和模拟这些东西，但他们做得太过分了，他们以成年人认为不太可能完全符合现实的非常尴尬的方式做到这一点。

Many times, and then we start to build more and more facility, more and more sort of wisdom around conjuring the story that makes the most direct, parsimonious sense out of the things that you imagine somebody else may have experienced, given the complexities of the context in which they find themselves.

很多时候，然后我们开始建立越来越多的设施，越来越多的智慧，围绕着编出故事，让你想象中的其他人可能经历过的事情，考虑到他们所处的复杂环境，使其具有最直接、最简约的意义。

It becomes more and more dynamic, more and more sort of inferential.

它变得越来越动态，越来越具有推理性。

And so this also goes back to what you were saying about development.

所以这也回到了你所说的关于发展的问题。

This is actually how I see development across the lifespan.

这实际上就是我对整个生命周期发展的看法。

My little two year old loves the arm.

我两岁的孩子喜欢手臂。

Then she loves me as much as something else that she really appreciates, like daylight.

然后她爱我就像她真正欣赏的其他事物一样，比如阳光。

And then she goes on from there.

然后她从那里继续。

And when she's 80, God willing, someday, she'll be making a different kind of story, picking out things that matter in more subtle ways that other people may not notice because of the historical context, because of her more lived experience that she brings to that story.

当她 80 岁的时候，上帝保佑，有一天，她会制作一个不同类型的故事，以更微妙的方式挑选出其他人可能不会注意到的重要事情，因为历史背景，因为她为这个故事带来了更多的生活经验。

So the things that become salient, the things you learn, how to notice and build a story out of, are developmental, and they're learned across time, but the basic fundamental processes around the emotions are always driving the need to make the story.

因此，那些变得突出的东西，你学到的东西，如何注意并构建一个故事，都是发展性的，而且它们是随着时间的推移而学习的，但围绕情感的基本过程总是推动着制作故事的需要。

And so just to come back, answering what you said before, I think we have this incredibly complex, dynamic set of basic emotions, or whatever you want to call them, physiological states that we share with other organisms, that are basically action programs that teach you run away from this, move toward that, eat this, don't eat that.

回过头来回答你之前所说的，我认为我们有一套极其复杂、动态的基本情绪，或者无论你怎么称呼它们，我们与其他生物体共有的生理状态，这些基本上是行动程序，教你远离这个，走向那个，吃这个，不吃那个。

But those things in humans and to a lesser degree in other animals, become the fodder for not just action programs in the moment, but ideas that transcend time, ideas that become the narratives of this stuff, of beliefs, of values, of identities, those more ethereal essences of us that are conjured entirely by us in cultural spaces, are fundamentally grounded into our ability to experience the world in a real, physical, embodied sense, but elaborated far beyond that.

但人类以及其他动物身上的这些东西，不仅成为当下行动计划的素材，而且成为超越时间的思想，成为这些东西、信仰、价值观、身份的叙述的思想，这些完全由我们在文化空间中召唤出来的更空灵的本质，从根本上扎根于我们以真实的、物理的、具体的意义上体验世界的能力，但其详细阐述远远超出了这一点。

Andrew Huberman: I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, Athletic Greens.

Andrew Huberman：我想稍微休息一下，并感谢我们的赞助商之一，Athletic Greens。

Athletic Greens, now called AG1, is a vitamin mineral probiotic drink that covers all of your foundational nutritional needs.

Athletic Greens（现称为 AG1）是一种维生素矿物质益生菌饮料，可满足您的所有基本营养需求。

I've been taking Athletic Greens since 2012, so I'm delighted that they're sponsoring the podcast.

我自 2012 年以来一直在服用 Athletic Greens，所以我很高兴他们赞助这个播客。

The reason I started taking Athletic Greens, and the reason I still take Athletic Greens once or usually twice a day, is that it gets me the probiotics that I need for gut health.

我开始服用运动绿色食品的原因，以及我仍然每天服用一次或通常两次运动绿色食品的原因是，它能为我提供肠道健康所需的益生菌。

Our gut is very important.

我们的直觉非常重要。

It's populated by gut microbiota that communicate with the brain, the immune system, and basically all the biological systems of our body to strongly impact our immediate and long term health.

它充满了肠道微生物群，它们与大脑、免疫系统以及我们身体的所有生物系统进行交流，对我们的近期和长期健康产生强烈影响。

And those probiotics and Athletic Greens are optimal and vital for microbiotic health.

这些益生菌和运动绿色食品对于微生物健康来说是最佳且至关重要的。

In addition, Athletic Greens contains a number of adaptogens, vitamins and minerals that make sure that all of my foundational nutritional needs are met, and it tastes great.

此外，运动绿叶蔬菜含有多种适应原、维生素和矿物质，可确保满足我所有的基本营养需求，而且味道极佳。

If you'd like to try Athletic Greens, you can go to athleticgreens.com/huberman and they'll give you five free travel packs that make it really easy to mix up Athletic Greens while you're on the road, in the car, on the plane, etc. And they'll give you a year's supply of Vitamin D3K2.

如果您想尝试 Athletic Greens，可以访问 Athletic Greens.com/huberman，他们会为您提供 5 个免费旅行包，让您在路上、车内、飞机上等时轻松混合 Athletic Greens。他们还会为您提供一年的维生素 D3K2 供应量。

Again, that's athleticgreens.com/huberman to get the five free travel packs and the year's supply of Vitamin D3K2.

再次强调，您可以访问 Athleticgreens.com/huberman 获取 5 个免费旅行包和全年维生素 D3K2 供应。

I started off studying the visual system, and I don't want this to turn into a discussion about the visual system, but in the visual system, we know that there's what's called a hierarchical organization where the eye encodes and can respond to edges and light versus dark and red, green, blue.

我开始研究视觉系统，我不希望这变成关于视觉系统的讨论，但在视觉系统中，我们知道存在所谓的分层组织，眼睛在其中编码并可以对边缘和光做出反应，而不是黑暗和红色，绿色，蓝色。

And from that very basic set of building blocks, there's an elaboration or a buildup of what's really called the Iceberg Model that was developed by my scientific great grandparents, David Hubel and Torsten Wiesel, who won the Nobel Prize for that work where you can look at somebody's face and recognize it, or see a profile moving at a particular direction and still recognize that person, or see a word written and conceptualize in your mind's eye what that word like bird, actually looks like.

从这套非常基本的构建模块中，我们对所谓的“冰山模型”进行了详细阐述或积累，该模型是由我的科学曾祖父母戴维·休贝尔（David Hubel）和托斯顿·维塞尔（Torsten Wiesel）开发的，他们因这项工作而获得了诺贝尔奖。在这个模型中，你可以看着某人的脸并认出它，或者看到一个朝特定方向移动的轮廓，但仍然认出那个人，或者看到一个写下的单词，并在你的脑海中概念化这个词像鸟一样，实际上是什么样子。

Like parakeet, blue parakeet.

像长尾小鹦鹉，蓝色长尾小鹦鹉。

In other words, there's a hierarchical build up.

换句话说，存在层级结构。

And what you're describing sounds somewhat similar, that there's a hierarchical organization whereby, through development, we first learned, I guess, earlier, I called them primitives, but basic building blocks of when someone steps on my foot, it hurts, can hurt a lot or a little bit, depending on who stepped on my foot, whether or not I have a shoe on.

你所描述的听起来有点相似，有一个层次结构，通过发展，我们首先了解到，我想，早些时候，我称它们为原语，但当有人踩到我的脚时，它会受伤，可能会伤害很多或一点点，这取决于谁踩了我的脚，无论我是否穿了鞋。

So you start learning context, but there's a build up on top of the basic somatic experience of different examples that map to pain, including emotional pain and physical pain, because we know those are interdigitated somewhat and that over time, this builds up so that we have countless examples.

所以你开始学习背景，但在映射到疼痛的不同例子的基本躯体体验之上，包括情感疼痛和身体疼痛，因为我们知道这些在某种程度上是相互交叉的，随着时间的推移，这种积累使我们有无数的例子。

But you said something else that goes beyond the hierarchical organization that we see in the visual system, which is that when there's a narrative or a story that we have to add, it changes something about the representation of emotion.

但你说了一些超出我们在视觉系统中看到的层次结构的东西，那就是当我们必须添加一个叙述或一个故事时，它会改变情感表达的一些东西。

I'm so struck by this comparison between seeing somebody step off a curb and break their ankle.

看到有人从路边走下来并摔断脚踝，我对这种比较感到非常震惊。

Like, even as I'm describing, just like, a folding ankle.

就像我所描述的那样，就像折叠脚踝一样。

Like, ouch.

就像，哎呀。

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang: Just look at what you're doing with your face.

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang：看看你的脸在做什么。

Andrew Huberman: I've broken my left foot five times growing up doing the same sport, and I can still hear and feel the thing going.

安德鲁·胡伯曼：在做同样的运动的过程中，我的左脚已经骨折过五次，但我仍然可以听到并感觉到事情的进展。

And that means six months in a cast or whatever it is, versus a story.

这意味着演员阵容或其他任何东西的六个月，而不是一个故事。

Seeing somebody sitting alone in a cafe, writing in their journal, and then learning that they just lost their spouse of 75 years.

看到有人独自坐在咖啡馆里写日记，然后得知他们刚刚失去了结婚 75 年的配偶。

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang: Right.

玛丽·海伦·伊莫迪诺-杨：是的。

Andrew Huberman: Two fundamentally different visual images.

Andrew Huberman：两种根本不同的视觉图像。

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang: Right.

玛丽·海伦·伊莫迪诺-杨：是的。

Andrew Huberman: The emotion could perhaps be the same, like, oh, yes, that is rough, and yet the need to impose story changes it.

安德鲁·休伯曼：情感可能是一样的，就像，哦，是的，这很粗糙，但强加故事的需要改变了它。

Do I understand that correctly, that there's something not just more developmentally mature about adding in story and adding context, but that when we have to do that, that there's something that's fundamentally different about how the emotions are mapped in the brain?

我的理解正确吗？添加故事和添加背景不仅可以使发育更加成熟，而且当我们必须这样做时，情绪在大脑中的映射方式也有根本不同？

I guess perhaps the answer I'm looking for is, what did you see in brain scanning experiments where somebody views simply a physical break of somebody's limb versus somebody has to add story?

我想也许我正在寻找的答案是，你在大脑扫描实验中看到了什么，其中有人只看到某人肢体的物理断裂，而有人必须添加故事？

Is there something that comes out in the subtraction of one from the other that tells us, oh, there's a whole set of brain networks that are not just about saying ouch, but that have to do with the need to conjure up story?

一个与另一个相减的结果是否会告诉我们，哦，有一整套大脑网络不仅仅只是说“哎哟”，而且还与构思故事的需要有关？

And what are those brain areas?

那些大脑区域是什么？

And then perhaps we can digest those a little bit.

然后也许我们可以消化一下这些。

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang: Yes.

玛丽·海伦·伊莫迪诺-杨：是的。

And actually that is exactly what we found, a whole system of brain areas that did this, which now many people have described, and we're still trying to understand the full role of these networks.

事实上，这正是我们所发现的，执行此操作的整个大脑区域系统，现在许多人已经描述过，并且我们仍在尝试了解这些网络的全部作用。

But these regions together are called in the literature, the so-called default mode network.

但这些区域在文献中一起被称为所谓的默认模式网络。

Because the co activation of these characteristic regions of the brain, which are in the back, middle of the head and some characteristic regions on the lateral parietal, those were first described in neuroimaging experiments where people were asked to just rest.

由于大脑的这些特征区域（位于头部的后部、中部和侧顶叶的一些特征区域）的共同激活，这些特征首先在神经影像学实验中被描述，在这些实验中，人们被要求只是休息。

Rest and relax, don't think about anything, just clear your mind for a few minutes.

休息放松，不要想任何事情，只需几分钟清空思绪即可。

This is Marcus Raichle and his colleagues back in 2001.

这是 2001 年的 Marcus Raichle 和他的同事。

And then contrasting that with tasks where people have to do something, vary attention, focus, requiring where you really have to work hard and think.

然后将其与人们必须做某事、改变注意力、焦点的任务进行对比，要求你真正必须努力工作和思考。

And they found that these highly metabolic characteristic regions of the brain were coming online and activating themselves when the person was resting and deactivating and decoupling from one another, not talking back and forth and exchanging signal very much, when someone was doing a really effortful mental task, and that was a real conundrum for a long time.

他们发现，当一个人在休息、停用、彼此脱钩、不经常说话和交换信号时，当一个人正在做一项非常费力的脑力任务时，大脑的这些高度代谢的特征区域就会上线并自我激活，这在很长一段时间内都是一个真正的难题。

And what we now know is when you ask somebody to think about nothing or rest for a few minutes, you're lying in the scanner thinking, I'm thinking about nothing, I'm thinking about nothing.

我们现在知道的是，当你要求某人什么都不思考或休息几分钟时，你躺在扫描仪中思考，我什么都不思考，我什么都不思考。

And then you start daydreaming about all manner of stories.

然后你开始幻想各种各样的故事。

You start to imagine yourself into the future.

你开始想象自己的未来。

Here I am winning the Olympics, tada!

我在这里赢得了奥运会，tada！

Or hey, it's my grandma's birthday next week.

或者，嘿，下周是我奶奶的生日。

I wonder if she'd like to go to lunch or if she'd rather have flowers.

我想知道她是否想去吃午饭或者是否想要鲜花。

You're imagining other people's mind states.

你在想象别人的心理状态。

You're thinking, is that guy mad at me at work?

你在想，那家伙是不是在工作时生我的气？

Or I wonder if I should change jobs?

或者我想知道我是否应该换工作？

You're thinking about all kinds of possible spaces that don't actually physically exist in the real here and now.

你正在思考各种可能的空间，而这些空间实际上并不存在于此时此地。

What we found is that our findings were, I think, some of the first, if not the first, to actively demonstrate an increase in activation in these default mode systems.

我们发现，我认为我们的发现是第一个（如果不是第一个）积极证明这些默认模式系统的激活增加的。

Not a decoupling of them, but an activation of them when we ask somebody to do an effortful mental task.

不是将它们分离，而是当我们要求某人做一项费力的脑力任务时，它们被激活。

And what was the task?

任务是什么？

Asking people, how do you feel about this story?

问人们，你对这个故事有何感想？

Which involves a lot of imposing of cultural and social and contextual knowledge to be able to appreciate.

这涉及到大量的文化、社会和背景知识的强加，以便能够欣赏。

So the story of the guy sitting in the cafe, writing in his journal, who lost his spouse of 75 years.

这是一个坐在咖啡馆里写日记的人的故事，他失去了结婚 75 年的配偶。

You have to know a lot to be able to appreciate how he must be feeling.

你必须了解很多才能理解他的感受。

How does it make you feel?

你感觉如何？

Let me pull up a lot of relevant knowledge, personal experiences and memories, and then hypothesize, generate some kind of narrative, some kind of storyline that would accommodate his situation and allow me to infer those kinds of stories which are very different from, here's somebody stepping off the curb.

让我调出大量相关知识、个人经历和记忆，然后进行假设，生成某种叙事、某种故事情节，以适应他的情况，并让我推断出那些与“有人走下路边”截然不同的故事。

Ow.

噢。

Look at that ankle, right?

看看那个脚踝，对吧？

It's very obvious how that makes the person feel and how you should feel about that.

很明显，这会给人带来什么感受，以及你应该对此有何感受。

You don't really need to bring a whole lot of cultural knowledge about their personal history with their spouse to be able to understand that breaking your ankle hurts, right?

你真的不需要带上大量关于他们与配偶的个人历史的文化知识来理解脚踝骨折的痛苦，对吧？

And what we found is that it was those kinds of stories where people had to bring a lot of contextual knowledge to fully appreciate that activated these default mode systems.

我们发现，正是那些人们必须携带大量背景知识才能充分理解的故事激活了这些默认模式系统。

Andrew Huberman: The losing of the spouse.

安德鲁·休伯曼：失去配偶。

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang: The losing of the spouse.

玛丽·海伦·伊莫迪诺-杨：失去配偶。

So what we later showed in a series of experiments contrasting true stories that are meant to induce admiration for skill, like something physically skillful or cognitively skillful, memorize a Rubik's cube and solve it with your eyes closed.

因此，我们后来在一系列实验中展示了对比真实故事的实验，这些故事旨在引起对技能的钦佩，例如身体技能或认知技能的东西，记住魔方并闭上眼睛解决它。

Or do flips on your bicycle and land on a railroad tie.

或者骑自行车翻转并落在枕木上。

Like these incredibly skillful things as compared to the same kind of basic emotion in the sense of feeling inspired, attracted to it, like it's pleasurable, like it's really cool, like you wish you could do that, too.

喜欢这些令人难以置信的技巧性的东西，与同样类型的基本情感相比，感觉受到启发，被它吸引，喜欢它令人愉快，喜欢它真的很酷，就像你希望你也能做到这一点。

But now it's about a state of that person's mind or quality of character or disposition of self.

但现在它是关于那个人的思想状态或性格品质或自我性格。

So, talking about the incredibly brave actions of Malala in Pakistan, standing up to the Taliban, where it's not about how well she walks down the street holding her school book, there's nothing really physically skillful to see there.

所以，谈到马拉拉在巴基斯坦勇敢地面对塔利班的行为，并不是说她拿着课本在街上走得有多好，那里没有什么真正的身体技巧可看。

It's about the conditions under which she's doing it and what you can infer about her state of mind and her quality of character.

这是关于她做这件事的条件，以及你可以推断出她的心态和性格品质。

To be engaging in these actions under those conditions and those complex kinds of inferences, we found, activate these default mode systems uniquely.

我们发现，要在这些条件和复杂的推理下参与这些行动，需要独特地激活这些默认模式系统。

And, in fact, we can, in trial by trial experiments.

事实上，我们可以通过试验进行试验。

So, literally, depending on what you say about a story, whether it inspires you, that particular story out of 50 in a two hour interview beforehand, if you are inspired by a particular story as compared to another one which may not resonate with you.

所以，从字面上看，取决于你对一个故事的看法，它是否能激励你，在事先两小时的采访中，从 50 个故事中选出一个特定的故事，与另一个可能不会引起你共鸣的故事相比，你是否受到某个特定故事的启发。

Then when we put you in the MRI scanner, we can predict that you will actually activate these neural systems differentially based on your psychological reaction in the interview.

然后，当我们把你放在核磁共振扫描仪中时，我们可以根据你在面试中的心理反应来预测你实际上会不同程度地激活这些神经系统。

So we can actually show that there are systematic ways in which these large scale networks of the brain, so the way in which the brain is kind of balancing its activity and its cross talk around the different parts that are contributing different kinds of processing, those dynamic balances are different when someone is what we're calling now, transcending the situation of that person.

所以我们实际上可以证明，大脑的这些大规模网络有系统的方式，因此大脑平衡其活动及其围绕贡献不同类型处理的不同部分的串扰的方式，当某人是我们现在所说的，超越那个人的情况时，这些动态平衡是不同的。

And starting to learn something bigger about what it all means or what the story is, or the broader reason why this inspires me, and not just is about her.

并开始了解更多关于这一切意味着什么或故事是什么，或者这激励我的更广泛原因，而不仅仅是关于她。

So you can look at Malala and you can, you know, oh, I hope she makes it, that's really unfair.

所以你可以看看马拉拉，你知道，哦，我希望她能成功，这真的很不公平。

Or you can look at her and say, and kids say this to us and experiments with teenagers, but wait a minute, and they actually wait.

或者你可以看着她说，孩子们对我们这么说，并对青少年进行实验，但等一下，他们实际上在等待。

They cover their face, they close their eyes, they look away from the Malala video, and they look at the plain ceiling, and we can actually get coders with the volume off to identify these periods of time and say that when they come back from that pause, their speech flows, their posture closes, they put their hands down, that kind of thing.

他们遮住脸，闭上眼睛，把目光从马拉拉视频上移开，看着朴素的天花板，我们实际上可以让编码员在关掉音量的情况下识别这些时间段，并说，当他们从暂停中回来时，他们的言语流畅，他们的姿势关闭，他们放下手，诸如此类的事情。

They don't gesture, and when they come back from that, they are talking about two things.

他们没有做手势，当他们回来时，他们正在谈论两件事。

They're talking about the broader inferential narrative around what all this means.

他们正在谈论围绕这一切意味着什么的更广泛的推理叙述。

Wait, I didn't know.

等等，我不知道。

Not everybody in the world doesn't get to go to school.

世界上并不是每个人都不能上学。

That's not right, and these ethical interpretations.

这是不对的，这些道德解释也是不对的。

That's not right.

那是不对的。

And the third thing that comes up is a feeling of self and what it means for you, because you're using your own self and consciousness as a kind of springboard, like a trampoline, like we said before, to try to appreciate what it must be like to be heard.

第三件事是自我感觉以及它对你意味着什么，因为你正在使用自己的自我和意识作为一种跳板，就像我们之前说过的蹦床一样，试图欣赏被倾听的感觉。

So the next thing people say to us, or kids say to us especially, is it makes me realize that I go to school all the time, and I kind of take it for granted, and maybe I should work harder to try to do something about that for other people.

所以人们对我们说的下一件事，尤其是孩子们对我们说的，是它让我意识到我一直在上学，我有点认为这是理所当然的，也许我应该更加努力地为其他人做点什么。

So we have this incredible confluence in the brain and mind, this layering of real physical actions and things that happen that you can directly observe with the visual system, in the world.

因此，我们的大脑和思想有着令人难以置信的融合，这种真实的身体动作和发生的事情的分层，你可以用视觉系统直接观察到世界上发生的事情。

And then you impose upon those a desire to construct a story or meaning, and you elaborate that meaning.

然后你将构建一个故事或意义的愿望强加给他们，然后你阐述这个意义。

And in doing so, you also ramp up the internal sense of self awareness of me being me, of conscious systems, systems that support consciousness in the brain and brainstem.

在这样做的过程中，你还增强了自我意识的内在意识，即“我就是我”，意识系统，支持大脑和脑干意识的系统。

Very basic things we share with alligators, that become that kind of inspired state of, like, it makes me want to do more for the world, or it makes me inspired to know there are people like her, or she gives me hope for humanity, one kid told me.

一个孩子告诉我，我们与鳄鱼分享的非常基本的事情，变成了一种受启发的状态，比如，它让我想要为世界做更多的事情，或者让我受到启发，知道有像她这样的人，或者她给了我对人类的希望。

So we've got this incredible dynamic layering of the feeling of the body, the real physical body, the observation and sensation perception of the world around us in a physical real or social real sense, and then the elaboration of that into these cultural narratives that become feeling states and where valence kind of disappears.

因此，我们得到了身体感觉的令人难以置信的动态分层，真实的身体，在物理真实或社会真实意义上对我们周围世界的观察和感觉感知，然后将其详细阐述为这些文化叙事，这些文化叙事成为感觉状态，其中效价消失了。

It doesn't matter so much anymore whether it's painful or pleasurable.

无论痛苦还是快乐，都不再那么重要了。

It's more about, does it mean something?

更多的是，这是否意味着什么？

I'm suffering because it's helping someone else, and so it becomes something desirable even though it hurts me.

我之所以受苦，是因为它帮助了别人，所以即使它伤害了我，它也变得令人向往。

Otherwise, none of us would go through childbirth, right?

不然的话，我们谁都不会经历分娩，对吗？

And so it's that meaning process that makes us really uniquely human, and that is the development of these emotions over time, I think.

因此，正是这种意义过程使我们成为真正独特的人类，我认为这就是这些情感随着时间的推移而发展的过程。

Andrew Huberman: Incredible.

安德鲁·休伯曼：难以置信。

If I'm understanding correctly, there's a feeling state in our body when we experience or observe somebody in their own feeling state or experience.

如果我理解正确的话，当我们体验或观察某人的感觉状态或经历时，我们的身体就会有一种感觉状态。

It may be the same as theirs, might be different, and frankly, as a neuroscientist, I'm going to say we'll never know exactly.

它可能与他们的相同，也可能不同，坦率地说，作为一名神经科学家，我想说我们永远不会确切地知道。

We won't know.

我们不会知道。

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang: Age old philosophical debate.

玛丽·海伦·伊莫迪诺-杨：古老的哲学辩论。

If I see blue and you see blue, is it the same exact experience?

如果我看到蓝色，你看到蓝色，这是同样的体验吗？

Andrew Huberman: It's probably not based on my knowledge of color vision and the distribution of cones.

安德鲁·休伯曼：这可能不是基于我对色觉和视锥细胞分布的了解。

To explain why, I'm saying that the distribution of cone photopigments in your eye and my eye are extremely different, to the point where we're not working with the same palette.

为了解释原因，我想说的是，你的眼睛和我的眼睛中锥体感光色素的分布极其不同，以至于我们使用的调色板不同。

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang: Cool.

玛丽·海伦·伊莫迪诺-杨：酷。

Andrew Huberman: And I think that makes life interesting.

安德鲁·休伯曼：我认为这让生活变得有趣。

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang: That makes life interesting, exactly.

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang：这确实让生活变得有趣。

Andrew Huberman: But assuming that neither of us is colorblind, red is similar enough to both of us that we would both look at it and say, that's red, but one in 80 males is red-green colorblind, would look at it and would see what you and I call red and call it orange.

安德鲁·休伯曼：但假设我们都不是色盲，红色对我们来说足够相似，我们都会看着它并说，那是红色，但八十分之一的男性是红绿色盲，会看到你我所说的红色和橙色。

In any event, when we, let's say, listen to or watch and listen to Martin Luther King's classic I have a dream speech, or when I hear certain music that I first heard when I was 14, it was a particularly interesting, for me, time in my life, in part because I was 14.

无论如何，当我们聆听或观看并聆听马丁·路德·金的经典演讲《我有一个梦想》时，或者当我听到我 14 岁时第一次听到的某些音乐时，对我来说，这是我生命中特别有趣的一段时光，部分原因是我当时 14 岁。

And we'll get back to that.

我们稍后会回过头来讨论这一点。

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang: 14 is a thing.

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang：14 岁是很重要的事情。

Andrew Huberman: We'll talk about adolescence.

安德鲁·休伯曼：我们将讨论青春期。

I'll go on record by saying that I think that the music that we listen to in our adolescence and teen years is one of the main ways in which we come to recognize the extremes of these feeling state templates that you're describing.

我要郑重声明，我认为我们在青春期和青少年时期听的音乐是我们认识到您所描述的这些情感状态模板的极端情况的主要方式之一。

One of the ways I prepare for podcasts is to walk, for my solo podcast, is to walk and go through some of the narrative.

我为播客做准备的方法之一就是步行，对于我的个人播客来说，就是步行并完成一些叙述。

My neighbors think I'm crazy.

我的邻居认为我疯了。

Yeah, I do that, too, but that's okay.

是的，我也这样做，但没关系。

I think they're crazy too.

我想他们也疯了。

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang: Maybe they're both right.

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang：也许他们都是对的。

Andrew Huberman: That's right.

安德鲁·休伯曼：没错。

Exactly.

确切地。

But I always know what music to listen to before I do a solo podcast, depending on the state that I happen to be in, driving into the studio versus the one I need to be in in order to deliver that particular material.

但在做个人播客之前，我总是知道该听什么音乐，这取决于我碰巧所处的状态，开车进入录音室还是为了传达特定材料而需要进入的状态。

And I know because it's almost like knowing what palette of colors, of emotional colors I have in me at the moment and which ones are going to be required to deliver that material, because it's different depending on the topic matter for that episode.

我知道，因为这几乎就像知道我现在拥有什么颜色、情感颜色以及需要哪些颜色来传递该材料，因为它根据该集的主题而不同。

What I'm referring to here is this idea that we come to understand emotions through our own experience, and how observing other people and listening to certain music can influence that, and I realize that some people probably have more of a buffer between their experience of the outside world, so called exteroception, seeing things outside us and their internal landscape.

我在这里指的是这样的想法，即我们通过自己的经历来理解情绪，以及观察他人和听某些音乐如何影响情绪，我意识到有些人可能在他们对外部世界的体验（所谓的外感）和他们的内部景观之间有更多的缓冲。

Some people, I realize, have very little narrative distancing.

我意识到，有些人几乎没有叙事距离。

In fact, I live with someone who has very little narrative distancing.

事实上，我和一个几乎没有叙事距离的人住在一起。

When she watches a movie, if the person gets punched--

当她看电影的时候，如果那个人被打了——

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang: --Yeah, she ducks.--

玛丽·海伦·伊莫迪诺-杨：--是的，她躲开了--

Andrew Huberman: --she flinches.

安德鲁·休伯曼：——她退缩了。

If it's a happy movie, she gets happy.

如果这是一部快乐的电影，她就会快乐。

If somebody in a movie is sad, she really feels it.

如果电影中的某个人感到悲伤，她真的能感受到。

And for a while, I thought, oh, goodness, this really seems a little extreme.

有一段时间，我想，哦，天哪，这看起来确实有点极端。

But I've talked to professionals about this, and it's something called lack of narrative distancing.

但我已经和专业人士讨论过这个问题，这就是所谓的缺乏叙事距离。

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang: Transportation is another way to say it.

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang：交通是另一种说法。

Being transported by a story.

被一个故事所感动。

Andrew Huberman: Right, and I think that it has its adaptive utility.

Andrew Huberman：是的，我认为它有其适应性效用。

I'm not being critical.

我并不是在批评。

I think that's an incredibly interesting aspect to ourselves.

我认为这对我们来说是一个非常有趣的方面。

Some of us, I have a lot more narrative distancing, especially with violence, and I think that's because I grew up around a lot more violence than she did.

我们中的一些人，我有更多的叙事距离，特别是在暴力方面，我认为这是因为我在比她更多的暴力环境中长大。

And so I see somebody get beheaded in a film, and unless it's something where I've really been built into the story of that person, and it was a real world thing that I knew actually happened, then I just kind of go, okay, well it's a movie.

所以我在电影中看到有人被斩首，除非这是我真正融入到那个人的故事中的事情，而且这是我知道确实发生过的现实世界的事情，然后我就走了，好吧，好吧，这是一部电影。

This is a movie, it's not real.

这是电影，不是真实的。

Even if it's a movie about something that was real, that might be a little bit more of an emotional impact.

即使这是一部关于真实事物的电影，也可能会产生更多的情感影响。

And, of course, if it's a documentary and it's real footage, it's pretty rough.

当然，如果这是一部纪录片并且是真实的镜头，那就相当粗糙了。

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang: Yeah.

玛丽·海伦·伊莫迪诺-杨：是的。

Andrew Huberman: But I'm not horrified in the way that she's horrified.

安德鲁·休伯曼：但我并不像她那样感到害怕。

I'm horrified, but not to the same extent.

我很害怕，但没有达到同样的程度。

So, obviously, some of us have more of a buffer than others.

因此，显然，我们中的一些人比其他人拥有更多的缓冲能力。

And you can see this in a movie or in a classroom full of kids watching a speech, like the I Have a Dream speech or hearing the Rosa Parks story, for instance, or listening to and watching a David Goggins social media post.

你可以在电影中或在满是孩子们观看演讲的教室中看到这一点，例如“我有一个梦想”演讲或听到罗莎·帕克斯的故事，或者聆听和观看大卫·戈金斯的社交媒体帖子。

We're talking about David earlier because your son had a question for me about David Goggins, who I happen to have the good fortune of having met and know a little bit.

我们之前谈论大卫是因为你的儿子向我提出了一个关于大卫·戈金斯的问题，我碰巧有幸认识了他并了解了一些。

I don't know him very well, but I know him from some in-person interactions, and he is every bit as intense and every bit as serious about his ongoing progression as he appears to be.

我不太了解他，但我通过一些面对面的互动认识了他，他对自己不断进步的态度和他看上去的一样热情、认真。

There's no falsehood there.

那里没有虚假。

It is 100% data.

这是100%的数据。

Fact.

事实。

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang: Genuine.

玛丽·海伦·伊莫迪诺-杨：正版。

Andrew Huberman: He does what he claims to do and more that we don't hear about.

Andrew Huberman：他做了他声称要做的事情，还有更多我们没有听说过的事情。

Super impressive human being.

超级令人印象深刻的人类。

So when we see something like a David Goggins post, or we watch and listen to the I Have a Dream speech and we start to feel something like, whoa, we're feeling inspired to use the basic language, are we mapping to some subconscious awareness of that in ourselves?

因此，当我们看到像大卫·戈金斯这样的帖子，或者我们观看和聆听“我有一个梦想”演讲时，我们开始感觉到，哇，我们受到了使用基本语言的启发，我们是否映射到了我们自己的某种潜意识意识？

Meaning, are we mapping to some time when we felt inspired in another circumstance?

意思是，我们是否映射到在另一种情况下感受到灵感的某个时刻？

Or is this merely kind of a return to a feeling state that we have to recognize?

或者这仅仅是我们必须认识到的一种感觉状态的回归？

I don't know if experiments have ever been done on this, but is there any way to determine whether or not we can truly have novel emotions past age 15?

我不知道有没有做过这方面的实验，但是有什么办法可以确定我们是否能够在15岁之后真正拥有新奇的情感呢？

Or are we really just returning?

或者我们真的只是回来了吗？

Are we really just doing a sort of template matching of, wow, I'm feeling this again.

我们真的只是在做某种模板匹配吗，哇，我又感觉到了。

And this makes me feel capable, like I can go out and run today, even though I was going to basically not run today.

这让我感觉自己有能力，就像我今天可以出去跑步一样，尽管我今天基本上不会跑步。

Or it's possible to have a fantasy view about how the world could be in terms of equality and opportunity.

或者，您可能对世界如何实现平等和机会抱有幻想。

And you know what?

你知道吗？

That subconsciously is my brain saying, yeah, I remember when I was six and I didn't know the difference between some people having opportunity and other people not having opportunity.

我的大脑潜意识里说，是的，我记得当我六岁的时候，我不知道有些人有机会和其他人没有机会之间的区别。

Is that what's happening?

是这样吗？

Or do you think that we are more sophisticated than that and we are actually really responding to what we think we're responding to?

或者你认为我们比这更复杂，我们实际上是在对我们认为我们正在回应的事情做出反应？

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang: Okay, wow.

玛丽·海伦·伊莫迪诺-杨：好的，哇。

There's a lot in there.

里面有很多东西。

A couple of things to start.

有几件事要开始。

So the first thing I was thinking before, when you were talking about the visual system, which I think is relevant now, is that as humans, the more developed we get, the more experience we have, the more we've adapted to the contexts in which we live.

所以，当你谈论视觉系统时，我之前想到的第一件事（我认为现在是相关的）是，作为人类，我们越发达，我们拥有的经验越多，我们就越能适应我们生活的环境。

The real physical context, in this case, the visual context included, but also the cultural values of that context.

真实的物理环境，在这种情况下，包括视觉环境，但也包括该环境的文化价值。

The things we've noticed, other people notice.

我们注意到的事情，其他人也会注意到。

How do you learn, when you're living in the jungle, that when you see eyeballs, you should go stand next to your mommy, right?

当你生活在丛林中时，你怎么知道当你看到眼球时，你应该站在你妈妈旁边，对吗？

So you learn what to notice, you learn what you need to attend to in the world.

所以你知道要注意什么，你知道在这个世界上你需要注意什么。

So when we are perceiving things, either very basic things like a visual scene, or hugely complex, elaborate things like Martin Luther King's speech, we are as much imposing onto the world our own expectations of what is there as we are perceiving what's actually there.

因此，当我们感知事物时，无论是视觉场景等非常基本的事物，还是马丁·路德·金的演讲等极其复杂、详尽的事物，我们都将自己对那里的期望强加给世界，就像我们感知实际存在的东西一样。

So as we impose onto the world, we bring what you might call our cultural ways of seeing and knowing our values and beliefs, and we push them onto the experience of what we notice.

因此，当我们强加给世界时，我们带来了你所谓的看待和了解我们的价值观和信仰的文化方式，并将它们推入我们所注意到的体验中。

So even in very basic ways, things like cultural values change the way in which people observe and remember scenes.

因此，即使在非常基本的方面，文化价值观等因素也会改变人们观察和记忆场景的方式。

So, you know, there's classic work by Shinobu Kiriyama and other people showing that in Japan versus in the US, when you show people a scene of, an underwater scene with all the beautiful things that are underwater, rocks and plants and things, and a little fish swimming by, and then one big fish swimming by, and you ask a Japanese person, what's this a picture of?

所以，你知道，Shinobu Kiriyama 和其他人的经典作品表明，在日本和美国，当你向人们展示一个场景，一个水下场景，水下有所有美丽的东西，岩石、植物和其他东西，一条小鱼游过，然后一条大鱼游过，你问一个日本人，这是什么照片？

They tend to talk about, it's a scene of rocks and plants and little fish, and then a big fish swims by.

他们倾向于谈论，这是一个由岩石、植物和小鱼组成的场景，然后一条大鱼游过。

If you ask an American, Western educated person, what is this a picture of?

如果你问一个受过西方教育的美国人，这是什么照片？

They say, oh, it's a fish swimming through a scene.

他们说，哦，这是一条鱼在场景中游动。

We tend to notice first, and he's shown that this is very automatic, it's very low level, it's perceptual, not just conceptual, and it actually changes what people actually notice in the scene and what they remember later and all that kind of stuff.

我们倾向于首先注意到，他表明这是非常自动的，它的水平非常低，它是感知的，而不仅仅是概念上的，它实际上改变了人们在场景中实际注意到的东西以及他们后来记住的东西以及所有类似的东西。

We learn how to sort of filter input.

我们学习如何对过滤输入进行排序。

We're not little robots or little video cameras walking around observing the world.

我们不是四处走动观察世界的小机器人或小摄像机。

And so when we see something as complex as a social story, we impose onto that all kinds of personal experiences.

因此，当我们看到像社会故事这样复杂的事物时，我们就会将各种个人经历强加于其中。

So you said, are we ever able to experience new emotions after age 15?

那么你说，15岁以后我们还能体验新的情感吗？

I think no, but we are very well able to experience new feelings, which are the complex elaborations of these physiological states and the stories we tell ourselves about the meaning behind them that is developing all the time.

我认为不是，但我们非常能够体验新的感觉，这些感觉是这些生理状态的复杂阐述，以及我们告诉自己的关于它们背后一直在发展的意义的故事。

And it's developing through all kinds of "cognitive media." We do it through our science, by being inspired and interested in something, by being in awe of something.

它是通过各种“认知媒体”发展起来的。我们通过我们的科学，通过对某些事物的启发和兴趣，通过对某些事物的敬畏来做到这一点。

We do it through art, through trying to express an emotion or a feeling or a value state, through the way in which we portray something to other people.

我们通过艺术，通过尝试表达一种情感、感觉或价值状态，通过我们向他人描绘事物的方式来做到这一点。

As humans, we are driven, I mean, even as cave people, we were driven to say, I was here, here's my handprint, I'm going to spit it onto a rock.

作为人类，我们被驱使，我的意思是，即使作为穴居人，我们也被驱使说，我在这里，这是我的手印，我要把它吐到岩石上。

So forevermore, anybody else who comes in here is going to see that it was me who was here, and I have a me.

所以永远，任何来到这里的人都会看到这里是我，而且我有一个我。

And so what we're really doing is moving through the world, not in this kind of receptive, passive way, but we are actively imposing ourselves onto the world.

所以我们真正做的就是在这个世界上行走，不是以这种接受的、被动的方式，而是我们主动地将自己强加于世界。

We're actively bringing our interpretive power and adapting what we do next relative to the way in which we accommodate, Piaget talked about this 100 years ago, accommodate or assimilate those things into us that may disagree with our schema, that may align and accord and reinforce them.

我们正在积极地发挥我们的解释能力，并根据我们的适应方式来调整我们接下来要做的事情，皮亚杰在 100 年前就谈到了这一点，将那些可能与我们的模式不一致的事物容纳或同化到我们身上，这可能会对齐、一致和强化它们。

So this matters a lot for the ways that humans experience the world more broadly, because think about, for example, a terrible topic like genocide or the Holocaust.

因此，这对于人类更广泛地体验世界的方式非常重要，因为想想诸如种族灭绝或大屠杀这样的可怕话题。

How does something like that happen?

怎么会发生这样的事呢？

How is it that people who have empathy, who love their family, who love their neighbors, can suddenly turn on each other?

那些有同理心、爱家人、爱邻居的人怎么会突然互相攻击呢？

What's happened is they've shifted the way in which they narratize the context of those events, the way in which they impose interpretation on somebody else's pain has been fundamentally shifted from, that's another human suffering, to, that's not a human, that's a rat, a pig, a bug, or whatever it is.

发生的事情是他们改变了叙述这些事件背景的方式，他们对别人的痛苦进行解释的方式已经从根本上改变了，从“那是另一个人的痛苦”，变成“那不是人，那是老鼠、猪、虫子，或者其他什么东西”。

And that dehumanization process allows us to shift our story set so that we bring another set of values and beliefs into the space.

这种非人性化的过程使我们能够改变我们的故事集，以便我们将另一组价值观和信仰带入这个空间。

Andrew Huberman: I'm glad that you brought up that dark example, because my understanding from my psychology courses in university were that as much as we would all like to think that we are incapable of being the committers of genocide, capable of it, that there are studies that were done in the 50s, but then have been repeated over many decades, showing that in certain contexts, essentially everybody and anybody would respond to an authoritarian figure and torture somebody else.

安德鲁·休伯曼：我很高兴你提到了这个黑暗的例子，因为我从大学心理学课程中了解到，尽管我们都希望认为我们没有能力成为种族灭绝的实施者，但我们有能力这样做，有一些研究是在 50 年代完成的，但随后几十年来一直在重复，表明在某些情况下，基本上每个人和任何人都会对独裁人物做出反应并折磨其他人。

And I'm sure as people are listening to us this, they're thinking, no, I would absolutely not do that.

我确信当人们听我们讲话时，他们会想，不，我绝对不会那样做。

But all the data points to the fact that if the conditions were set in a particular way, you and I and everybody else most certainly would.

但所有数据都表明，如果条件以特定方式设定，你、我和其他人肯定会这样做。

A very eerie idea that goes back to, I think, Jung's idea that we have all things inside of us.

我认为，这是一个非常怪异的想法，可以追溯到荣格的想法，即我们体内拥有一切。

We certainly have all the neural circuitry components inside of us for rage and contempt and horrible mistreatment of others, as well as all the good stuff.

我们体内当然有所有的神经回路组件，用于愤怒、蔑视和对他人的可怕虐待，以及所有好的东西。

But I'm just glad that you brought up this example, because I think that for a lot of people, it's inconceivable.

但我很高兴你提出了这个例子，因为我认为对于很多人来说，这是不可思议的。

But I've never heard it framed the way that you're describing it, which is that if the story becomes not about the other person's suffering, but primarily about one's own story of suffering, and that can suppress or literally inhibit the neural circuits that invoke empathy, then it makes perfectly good neurobiological sense as to why that would at least be possible.

但我从来没有听说过它是按照你描述的方式构建的，也就是说，如果这个故事不是关于另一个人的痛苦，而是主要关于一个人自己的痛苦故事，并且可以抑制或字面上抑制激发同理心的神经回路，那么它就完全有很好的神经生物学意义，为什么这至少是可能的。

And of course, I don't think it's a good thing.

当然，我不认为这是一件好事。

It's just like many aspects of our biology and psychology, it just happens to be the way things are.

就像我们生物学和心理学的许多方面一样，事情恰好就是这样。

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang: It is.

玛丽·海伦·伊莫迪诺-杨：是的。

And I'm ever the optimist.

我一直是个乐观主义者。

I'm also ever the educator, I'm a teacher.

我也曾经是教育家，我是一名老师。

I'm very, also very interested in the ways that we design educational experiences for young people.

我对我们为年轻人设计教育体验的方式非常非常感兴趣。

I think the only hope we have to protect ourselves against these possibilities is to systematically develop dispositions in ourselves, proclivities within ourselves, to question our own motives, and to deconstruct our own assumptions about situations, and to engage with other people's perspectives systematically.

我认为，我们保护自己免受这些可能性影响的唯一希望是系统地发展我们自己的性格和倾向，质疑我们自己的动机，解构我们自己对情况的假设，并系统地考虑他人的观点。

And when we develop those dispositions, the hope is that we are developing within ourselves a kind of a veto system, a system for checking our own motivations against other people's experiences of those motivations.

当我们发展这些倾向时，希望我们在自己内部发展一种否决系统，一种根据其他人对这些动机的经历来检查我们自己的动机的系统。

And so much of what's leading, I think now we're going in another direction and kind of a political direction, but so much of what's leading us into these very divisive political types.

我认为现在我们正在走向另一个方向，一种政治方向，但很多因素正在引导我们进入这些非常分裂的政治类型。

For example, not just know the rise of authoritarianism, not just in the US, or the threat of it, not just in the US, but around many places in the world, all of which, by the way, are Western educated, is that we are taught that to know something means you own something in yourself, and then you take that with you and you impose it on the world forevermore.

例如，不仅要知道威权主义的兴起，不仅在美国，而且要知道威权主义的威胁，不仅在美国，而且在世界许多地方，顺便说一下，所有这些地方都受过西方教育，我们被教导说，了解某事意味着你拥有自己的某些东西，然后你把它随身携带，并将它永远强加给世界。

I know how to do Algebra II, and I can do it whenever you ask me kind of thing.

我知道如何做代数 II，只要你问我什么问题我都能做。

And that's what a good student is.

这就是好学生。

Where when people learn to engage with their own knowledge states in more curious, open minded, flexible ways, then we dispositionally teach ourselves to check our assumptions, to rethink what we think we know.

当人们学会以更好奇、更开放、更灵活的方式处理自己的知识状态时，我们就会在性格上教会自己检查我们的假设，重新思考我们认为自己知道的事情。

And this is key developmentally, to notice when we need to do that and when we should just plow ahead and it's totally fine.

这是发展的关键，注意我们什么时候需要这样做，什么时候我们应该继续努力，一切都很好。

What we're doing, I think, right now to ourselves, both in the education system and in things like social media, is we're reinforcing our own biases by diving down rabbit holes, where you rehear the same thing over and over again that reinforces your own belief systems.

我认为，我们现在对自己所做的事情，无论是在教育系统还是在社交媒体等方面，都是通过钻入兔子洞来强化我们自己的偏见，在那里你一遍又一遍地重复同样的事情，从而强化你自己的信仰体系。

And then you come to believe those things, and those put you on a train toward a particular kind of action or belief system that never becomes deconstructed.

然后你开始相信这些事情，这些事情会让你踏上通往某种永远不会被解构的特定行动或信仰体系的列车。

And it's very comfortable, and it's easy to do.

而且非常舒服，而且很容易做到。

But the responsibility I think we have as individuals and as groups, as humans, given the amazing intelligence we have, is to rise above that and actually look back on our own selves reflectively and deconstruct our preferences, deconstruct our values and our beliefs, and systematically query them specifically around how they impact or influence or change the situations of those around us, or don't.

但我认为，鉴于我们拥有惊人的智慧，作为个人和群体，作为人类，我们有责任超越这一点，真正反思地回顾自己，解构我们的偏好，解构我们的价值观和信仰，并系统地询问它们如何影响或影响或改变我们周围人的处境，或者不影响或不改变我们周围的人的处境。

The situations and sustainability of the world that supports us, or don't.

世界的形势和可持续性是否支持我们。

And so it all comes back to the emotions that drive our thinking.

所以这一切都回到了驱动我们思考的情感。

So we have these very basic primitive physiological states, which vary across individuals, the degree to which they are incredibly powerful, easily evoked versus not.

所以我们有这些非常基本的原始生理状态，这些状态因人而异，它们的强大程度、容易被唤起与不易唤起的程度各不相同。

There's a lot of range in that.

这里面有很多范围。

And all of that variation makes things interesting, but it's our ability to learn to experience those and to develop wisdom around when we need to query our own emotions and deconstruct the narratives that we're using to validate or substantiate those kinds of emotions in order to assess whether we actually are right, whether we should continue or whether we should step back and reframe, and so that kind of mental flexibility really comes out of an emotional disposition.

所有这些变化都让事情变得有趣，但当我们需要质疑自己的情绪并解构我们用来验证或证实这些情绪的叙述时，我们有能力学习体验这些并发展智慧，以便评估我们是否真的是对的，我们是否应该继续，或者我们是否应该后退一步重新构建，因此这种心理灵活性确实来自于情绪倾向。

It is our ability, so it takes it back to what you were asking at the very beginning, it is our ability to not just drive from what feels like the bottom up, which, of course, is always starting in the top down, because you've got some interpretation of the world that makes you feel fear, that makes your body do this, that makes you right, but also to be able to rise above, to transcend and think about what are the broader systemic, historical, ethical, civic implications of this narrative I'm telling myself, which feels default, like the truth, and how might I deconstruct those systematically.

这是我们的能力，所以这又回到你一开始问的问题，我们的能力不仅是从下往上推动，当然，总是从上往下开始，因为你对世界有一些解释，让你感到恐惧，让你的身体这样做，让你正确，而且能够超越，超越并思考我告诉自己的这个叙述的更广泛的系统，历史，伦理，公民含义是什么，感觉默认，就像真相一样，我该如何系统地解构这些。

And how might I invite others to give me their version of those events and engage with those systematically in order to be able to really appreciate the implications of my beliefs?

我如何邀请其他人向我提供他们对这些事件的看法并系统地参与这些事件，以便能够真正理解我的信念的含义？

The bottom line is that the emotions that we're talking about today are actually the fundamental drivers of all of our thinking, decision making, relationship building, our community lives, and our personal well being all in one mix.

最重要的是，我们今天讨论的情绪实际上是我们所有思考、决策、建立关系、社区生活和个人福祉的基本驱动力。

But that doesn't kind of excuse us for acting on their bequest.

但这并不能成为我们根据他们的遗赠采取行动的借口。

It actually imbues us with a responsibility to then develop dispositions to systematically query those and reframe them when they are not serving us or the world.

它实际上让我们有责任去系统地质疑这些内容，并在它们不为我们或世界服务时重新构建它们。

Andrew Huberman: Well, exactly what you said.

安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯，正如你所说。

So much so that I'm a big believer in following lots of different types of social media accounts.

以至于我非常相信关注许多不同类型的社交媒体帐户。

I've taken some heat here and there because people automatically assume that if you follow an account that you subscribe to that ideology.

我到处都受到了一些批评，因为人们会自然而然地认为，如果你关注某个帐户，你就会认同这种意识形态。

But I follow many accounts with whom I might disagree with what they say, specifically so that I can learn different perspectives.

但我关注了很多账户，我可能不同意他们所说的内容，特别是这样我可以了解不同的观点。

As far as I know, we're the same species, me and these other people.

据我所知，我和其他人是同一物种。

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang: Yes, as far as we are.

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang：是的，就我们目前而言。

Andrew Huberman: Sometimes I wonder, but they probably wonder the same about me.

安德鲁·休伯曼：有时我想知道，但他们可能对我也有同样的疑问。

They wonder, too, and there's enormous range in those accounts that I follow.

他们也想知道，我关注的这些账户的范围很大。

And I follow different accounts for different reasons, some for entertainment, some for information, some for challenging myself, some for my desire to be baffled every now and again, but to always return to this idea that we are all basically working with the same building blocks of neurons and neurochemistry.

我出于不同的原因关注不同的账户，有些是为了娱乐，有些是为了获取信息，有些是为了挑战自己，有些是因为我希望时不时地感到困惑，但总是回到这个想法，即我们基本上都在使用相同的神经元和神经化学构建块。

Some people's dopamine, which, whether or not you're into bitcoin or traditional currency, the one true currency that's universal is dopamine.

有些人的多巴胺，无论你是否喜欢比特币或传统货币，一种真正的通用货币就是多巴胺。

Everyone's working for dopamine and exchanging their own dopamine with world experiences.

每个人都在为多巴胺而工作，并用世界经验交换自己的多巴胺。

But this is one of the reasons why I think it's important to not be siloed in one's thinking or exposure to different things on social media.

但这就是为什么我认为不要孤立自己的思维或在社交媒体上接触不同事物的原因之一。

A somewhat controversial statement, actually, because I think a lot of people assume that if you follow somebody from a particular political party, then that means that you vote for that political party, etc. But that, to me, always seemed crazy.

实际上，这是一个有点争议的说法，因为我认为很多人认为，如果你关注某个特定政党的某人，那么这意味着你投票给那个政党，等等。但对我来说，这总是显得很疯狂。

I'm fortunate to have this good friend who was on this podcast, Rick Rubin, who's an extremely accomplished music producer, and he produced music from essentially every genre of music, punk rock, which is where I got my start, and still love punk rock music so much, but classical and hip hop and everything in between.

我很幸运有这个播客的好朋友，Rick Rubin，他是一位非常有成就的音乐制作人，他制作的音乐基本上涵盖了所有音乐流派，朋克摇滚，这是我的起点，并且仍然非常喜欢朋克摇滚音乐，但古典和嘻哈以及介于两者之间的一切。

And Rick is somebody who forages so broadly, and I've really learned to try and forage broadly in terms of ideas and ideologies.

里克是一个广泛搜寻的人，我真的学会了尝试在思想和意识形态方面广泛搜寻。

And I think a lot of people are just scared to be exposed to something that they hate so much because they don't like that feeling in their body of disagreement.

我认为很多人只是害怕接触他们非常讨厌的东西，因为他们不喜欢他们的分歧中的那种感觉。

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang: Yeah.

玛丽·海伦·伊莫迪诺-杨：是的。

Dissonance, that kind of cognitive dissonance we call it, is very difficult.

失调，我们称之为认知失调，是非常困难的。

It takes work to resolve it.

需要付出努力才能解决它。

Andrew Huberman: Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。

I like to think there's a way to step back from that and observe it, not from a disconnected stance, but from a place of curiosity about what's driving those mechanisms in people and maybe where we need to adjust our thinking.

我认为有一种方法可以退后一步并观察它，不是从一种孤立的立场，而是从一种好奇心出发，了解是什么在驱动人们的这些机制，也许我们需要在哪里调整我们的思维。

Maybe not to adopt their mode of thinking 100%, but maybe 10% or 2%.

也许不会100%采用他们的思维方式，但也许10%或2%。

I think one of the reasons things are so divisive right now is because of social media and this siloing or very divergent trajectories of people only following and listening to and obeying certain kinds of information and other people the other.

我认为现在事情如此分裂的原因之一是由于社交媒体和这种孤立或非常不同的轨迹，人们只关注、倾听和服从某些类型的信息，而其他人则相反。

And I think the pandemic is the place where all that really clashed very heavily and continues to clash in other areas, too.

我认为这场大流行是所有这些真正发生严重冲突的地方，并且在其他领域也继续发生冲突。

Certainly not something that's going to be solved inside of this conversation.

当然这不是这次谈话中能解决的问题。

And yet I do have a question that grows from this aspect of our discussion, which is, what do you think can be done at a concrete level in terms of education of younger people, as well as education of people who are out of high school and beyond, to try and adopt these more encompassing modes of learning and experiencing the world?

然而，我确实有一个问题是从我们讨论的这个方面衍生出来的，那就是，您认为在年轻人的教育以及高中毕业及以上的人的教育方面可以在具体层面上做些什么，以尝试采用这些更具包容性的学习和体验世界的模式？

I mean, it's one thing to say, expose yourself to lots of different ideas.

我的意思是，让自己接触许多不同的想法是一回事。

It's another to understand how to do that in a way that is adaptive.

了解如何以适应性的方式做到这一点是另一回事。

And any ideas you have, I know I and the audience would really appreciate and feel free to make this an editorial or map back to data.

如果你有任何想法，我知道我和观众都会非常感激，并且可以随意将其作为社论或映射回数据。

I mean, obviously, this is your wheelhouse.

我的意思是，显然，这是你的驾驶室。

This is your expertise.

这是你的专业知识。

So I'm curious, what should we do?

所以我很好奇，我们应该做什么？

Should I send my family members, who have very divergent political beliefs from me, information to the contrary of their thinking, or what do I do?

我是否应该向政治信仰与我截然不同的家人发送与他们的想法相反的信息，或者我该怎么办？

And what do I do for me?

而我该为自己做什么呢？

What should we all be doing with our ten year olds and ourselves?

我们应该对我们十岁的孩子和我们自己做什么？

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang: Well, I won't comment on what should you send your family members.

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang：嗯，我不会评论你应该给家人寄什么。

There's other people that do that, and they do that work, and they know.

还有其他人这样做，他们也做这项工作，他们知道。

Andrew Huberman: How to always frustrate each other over text message.

Andrew Huberman：如何总是通过短信让对方感到沮丧。

It's okay.

没关系。

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang: It's okay.

玛丽·海伦·伊莫迪诺-杨：没关系。

Andrew Huberman: It can't get any worse.

Andrew Huberman：情况再糟糕不过了。

No, we all love each other anyway.

不，无论如何我们都彼此相爱。

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang: But one thing I really do think a lot about in this is the way in which we educate our young people and what do we do with our ten year olds.

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang：但我确实思考了很多的一件事是我们教育年轻人的方式以及我们如何对待十岁的孩子。

The first thing I'll say about your ten year old, I don't know if you actually have a ten year old, but is query them about their beliefs when they follow something, when they think something's impressive or bad, or ask them why, teach them to unpack their own beliefs.

关于你十岁的孩子，我要说的第一件事是，我不知道你是否真的有一个十岁的孩子，但是当他们遵循某件事时，当他们认为某件事令人印象深刻或不好时，询问他们的信仰，或者问他们为什么，教他们解开自己的信仰。

That doesn't mean that you don't still hold them necessarily.

这并不意味着您不一定仍然持有它们。

It doesn't mean that you adopt the opposite belief.

这并不意味着您采用相反的信念。

If I talk to someone who has a very different value system than I do and I disagree with them, that's legitimate.

如果我与一个价值观体系与我截然不同的人交谈并且我不同意他们的观点，这是合理的。

But in deciding that I disagree, I have sort of revisited my own belief and queried it.

但在决定不同意时，我有点重新审视了自己的信念并提出了质疑。

I've externalized it a little bit, made that thinking visible.

我将其具体化了一点，使这种想法变得可见。

It's the way we talk about it in education.

这就是我们在教育中谈论它的方式。

That's David Perkins at Harvard, talks about it that way, you know, making your thinking visible and then examining that.

那是哈佛大学的大卫·帕金斯，他以这种方式谈论它，你知道，让你的想法可见，然后检查它。

So I think one really important step that as a society we'll have to take or we won't make it, and I know that sounds a little dramatic, but I actually think it's true, sadly, and I'm starting to think it's more and more true, is that we need to really get brave about how we think about the process of educating our young people and what it actually means to expose young people to developmentally appropriate, age appropriate opportunities to grow themselves as thinkers, as individuals, and as civic agents and community members.

所以我认为，作为一个社会，我们必须采取的一个非常重要的步骤，否则我们就不会成功，我知道这听起来有点戏剧化，但我实际上认为这是真的，可悲的是，我开始认为它越来越真实，那就是我们需要真正勇敢地思考如何思考教育年轻人的过程，以及让年轻人获得适合发展、适合年龄的机会，让他们成长为思想家、个人、公民代理人和公民代理人，这实际上意味着什么。社区成员。

I think that our Western designed education system has in it some very basic beliefs about what counts as knowing and what is worth thinking about and knowing about.

我认为我们西方设计的教育体系有一些非常基本的信念，关于什么算作知识以及什么值得思考和了解。

And how do I know that?

我怎么知道这一点？

How do I test you on that?

我该如何测试你呢？

That I think is deeply, they are deeply problematic and lead us, I mean, I know this is a strong statement, but they lead us to a place where we are actively punished, not just not encouraged, but I would say actively discouraged from really playing with ideas, engaging systematically with our own beliefs, deconstructing those beliefs, and engaging with complex perspectives on topics and ideas.

我认为这是很严重的，他们有很大的问题，并引导我们，我的意思是，我知道这是一个强有力的声明，但他们把我们带到了一个地方，我们受到积极的惩罚，不仅仅是不被鼓励，而且我想说的是，积极阻止我们真正玩弄想法，系统地参与我们自己的信仰，解构这些信仰，并参与对主题和想法的复杂观点。

That is just not what school is about.

这不是学校的目的。

And it needs to be, we need to shift.

我们需要转变。

So right now, the way in which we think about school is basically judged by "learning outcomes." What have you learned and how do we know that?

所以现在，我们对学校的看法基本上是通过“学习成果”来判断的。你学到了什么，我们怎么知道？

We make you demonstrate it by yourself, under time pressure in a particular setting, where you're going to come back and I'm going to give you a question and you're going to give me the answer I had in mind.

我们让你在特定环境中在时间压力下亲自演示它，你将回来，我将给你一个问题，你将给我我想到的答案。

And if you do that in time, then I'll say you learned it.

如果你及时做到了，那么我会说你学会了。

And now we're done.

现在我们完成了。

Check.

查看。

Right.

正确的。

As compared to a system, and there are educational systems like this, there are people, for example, the Performance Assessment Consortium in New York City is a consortium of public schools, some of which do this extraordinarily well.

相对于一个系统来说，有这样的教育系统，还有人，比如纽约市的绩效评估联盟，是一个公立学校的联盟，其中一些学校在这方面做得非常好。

They have a dispensation from the New York State government not to give the Regents Exam as their graduation requirements and their benchmarks of learning, but instead to have alternative ways of assessing kids where kids work for months to years, depending on the project, on these in depth, intellectual, multidisciplinary projects where they explore a topic and they engage with their own process of learning about that topic, and they bring in teachers and community experts and other people, and they present their work and then they query the work and they talk about their own learning process and what could happen next and what decisions they made and all these--

纽约州政府允许他们不以摄政考试作为毕业要求和学习基准，而是采用其他方式评估孩子，孩子们根据项目工作数月至数年，在这些深入的、智力的、多学科的项目中，他们探索一个主题，并参与自己学习该主题的过程，他们引入教师、社区专家和其他人，他们展示自己的工作，然后询问工作，谈论自己的学习过程以及接下来会发生什么他们做出了什么决定以及所有这些——

Andrew Huberman: --Kind of a graduate thesis.--

安德鲁·休伯曼：——有点像研究生论文。——

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang: Exactly.

玛丽·海伦·伊莫迪诺-杨：没错。

You have to invent not just the work, but the question.

你不仅要发明作品，还要发明问题。

You need to look at the world and notice what it is we're not understanding that we would benefit from understanding and find a way to isolate and systematically query that.

你需要看看这个世界，注意到我们不理解的是什么，我们将从理解中受益，并找到一种方法来隔离和系统地查询它。

Why don't we build education systems from preschool all the way up that engage people systematically in that kind of intellectual curiosity?

为什么我们不建立从学前班一直到大学的教育体系，让人们系统地培养这种求知欲呢？

We don't do that.

我们不这样做。

So we know that little kids education, preschool education, if you don't have the water table and the sand table and the cool stuff and the choices and the ways to engage with each other and you know what I mean, all the stuff being really age appropriate for three year olds to touch and smoosh and try to taste and whatever else, they're going to be a mess on the floor.

所以我们知道，小孩子的教育、学前教育，如果没有地下水位、沙盘、很酷的东西、选择和相互交往的方式，你知道我的意思，所有这些东西都适合三岁孩子触摸、抚摸、尝试品尝和其他任何东西，它们会在地板上乱七八糟。

They're just not going to come.

他们只是不会来。

They're going to refuse to come to school.

他们会拒绝来学校。

And they're going to be laying in the doorway throwing temper tantrums.

他们会躺在门口发脾气。

So we know how to do little kid education.

所以我们知道如何进行幼儿教育。

Well, it doesn't mean we always do it, but we know that they need to be intrigued, they need to be invited to think.

嗯，这并不意味着我们总是这样做，但我们知道需要引起他们的兴趣，需要邀请他们思考。

And they bring their natural curiosity.

他们带来了天生的好奇心。

And then you expand the range of ways they can leverage that curiosity to discover new things they hadn't known to think about before.

然后你可以扩展他们利用好奇心来发现他们以前不知道要思考的新事物的方式。

Then we get to the "standard" educational system, and we somehow think that that natural human proclivity to engage curiously and meaningfully with deep thinking about ideas and the world is like inefficient and inappropriate and frightening.

然后我们谈到“标准”教育体系，不知何故，我们认为人类天生好奇地、有意义地深入思考思想和世界的倾向是低效、不恰当和令人恐惧的。

And we teach kids, no, turn that off.

我们教孩子们，不，把它关掉。

It's dangerous if you do it.

如果你这样做就很危险。

It's considered insubordinate, and what we want you instead to do is just let me give you what I've already figured out for you.

这被认为是不服从命令，而我们希望你做的就是让我给你我已经为你想出来的东西。

I'm going to give it to you and you are going to give it back to me.

我会把它给你，你也会把它还给我。

Andrew Huberman: So it seems to me that in the way that things actually happen in school, what is created is a kind of desire for the kid to be a computer, not a human.

安德鲁·胡伯曼：所以在我看来，在学校里实际发生的事情中，所创造的是一种让孩子成为计算机而不是人类的愿望。

And they do have a dopamine system, however.

然而，他们确实有多巴胺系统。

And so what becomes the buzz, the emotional buzz is performance.

因此，成为嗡嗡声、情感嗡嗡声的就是表现。

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang: Yes.

玛丽·海伦·伊莫迪诺-杨：是的。

Andrew Huberman: If it becomes a buzz at all.

安德鲁·休伯曼：如果它真的引起轰动的话。

So for the kids that don't get that buzz from performance or they don't intrinsically love the math or the English or the books that they're being presented with or whatever the subject happens to be, or maybe they only like one or two things, then they emotionally dissociate from the rest of the material.

因此，对于那些没有从表演中获得那种兴奋感的孩子，或者他们本质上不喜欢数学、英语或他们所看到的书籍或任何主题，或者他们可能只喜欢一两件事，那么他们就会在情感上与其他材料分离。

I'm actually describing a bit of myself in high school.

我实际上是在描述自己在高中时的一些情况。

I barely finished high school.

我刚刚高中毕业。

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang: I dropped out of 6th grade for a few months.

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang：我从六年级退学了几个月。

Yeah.

是的。

Didn't work for me.

不适合我。

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, I eventually got back to it and as I imagine you did too, because we ended up as academics.

安德鲁·休伯曼：是的，我最终回到了这个话题，我想你也这么做了，因为我们最终成为了学者。

But I think what you're describing is so key, and I never thought about it from the perspective of, oh, yeah, as young kids, like, we're given all the things that are going to drive our sensory world in the appropriate ways, touch and sound, vision--

但我认为你所描述的非常关键，我从来没有从这样的角度思考过这个问题，哦，是的，作为小孩子，我们被赋予了所有能够以适当的方式驱动我们的感官世界的东西，触觉、声音、视觉——

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang: --And a mind.

玛丽·海伦·伊莫迪诺-杨：——还有一颗心。

We're trying to build meaning in our mind.--

我们正在努力在我们的头脑中建立意义。--

Andrew Huberman: --and that we get to as students, young, very young learners, impose some of our own intrinsic motivation to do certain things and not others, and that isn't supported as we're adults.

安德鲁·胡伯曼：——作为学生，年轻的、非常年轻的学习者，我们会强加一些自己的内在动机去做某些事情而不是其他事情，而作为成年人，这并没有得到支持。

What you're describing is so vital.

你所描述的内容非常重要。

What age do you think this cliffs off?

你认为这个悬崖是几岁的？

Okay, so in preschool kids are allowed to do this, in kindergarten they're allowed to do first grade, they're allowed to do it in most schools.

好吧，在学前班，孩子们可以这样做，在幼儿园，他们可以一年级，大多数学校都可以这样做。

But at what point is the expectation imposed on kids to become little rote learning computer machines and to get their dopamine from performance, rather from intrinsic pleasure in what they're learning, thinking about?

但在什么时候，人们就会期望孩子成为死记硬背的小电脑机器，从表现中获取多巴胺，而不是从他们所学、所想的事物中获得内在的快乐呢？

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang: Yeah.

玛丽·海伦·伊莫迪诺-杨：是的。

Andrew Huberman: And also, how do we address this issue that there are certain basic skills that not everyone is going to perform well at?

Andrew Huberman：另外，我们如何解决某些基本技能并不是每个人都能表现良好的问题？

And so for the kid that says, I don't like math, well, you still have to learn it.

因此，对于那些说“我不喜欢数学”的孩子，好吧，你仍然必须学习它。

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang: You need to appreciate it.

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang：你需要欣赏它。

Andrew Huberman: How do you conjure up a joy or an appreciation in that kid?

安德鲁·休伯曼：你如何让那个孩子感到快乐或欣赏？

It seems like a hard thing.

这似乎是一件很难的事情。

I mean, I eventually set myself along an academic trajectory that worked out, but that was initially just out of pure fear because my life was really bad.

我的意思是，我最终为自己设定了一条成功的学术轨迹，但这最初只是出于纯粹的恐惧，因为我的生活真的很糟糕。

Circumstances in myself made it bad, and I was rescuing myself from basically becoming more of a loser.

我自己的情况让事情变得很糟糕，而我正在拯救自己，以免自己基本上成为一个失败者。

So I was like, okay, school is the thing and I did school, and that was the turn hard right into academics for me.

所以我想，好吧，学校就是重点，我上了学，这对我来说是进入学术界的艰难转变。

But what do you do for the person who really doesn't like math because they're struggling with it or doesn't like biology or psychology?

但是，对于那些因为在数学上遇到困难或者不喜欢生物学或心理学而真正不喜欢数学的人，你该怎么办呢？

How do we evoke at least an appreciation for that?

我们如何至少唤起对此的赞赏？

It sounds like the emotion system is the key system to leverage in order to learn.

听起来情绪系统是学习的关键系统。

Could you talk about the relationship between emotion and learning?

您能谈谈情感和学习之间的关系吗？

Because I realize this is really the center of what you do.

因为我意识到这确实是你所做工作的中心。

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang: You could say it this way.

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang：你可以这样说。

Whatever you're having emotion about is what you're thinking about, and whatever you're thinking about, you could hope to learn about, remember something from, understand differently.

无论你对什么感到有情绪，你就会在想什么，无论你在想什么，你都希望能够了解、记住一些东西，并以不同的方式理解。

So the key question for educators is what?

那么教育工作者的关键问题是什么？

Everybody's always having some kind of emotions all the time, unless you're dead, or unconscious.

每个人总是有某种情绪，除非你死了，或者失去知觉。

What are people's emotions about in this space?

人们在这个空间中的情绪是什么？

If the emotions, because whatever those emotions are about that is what you're learning about, so if the emotions are about the outcomes, did I get it right?

如果情绪，因为无论这些情绪是什么，这就是你正在学习的内容，那么如果情绪与结果有关，我说对了吗？

Am I going to flunk?

我会不及格吗？

Am I going to get an A plus?

我会得到 A+ 吗？

I'm so smart.

我真聪明。

I'm so stupid.

我真是太傻了

Any one of those.

其中任何一个。

If those are the main drivers, then that is what you're learning about.

如果这些是主要驱动因素，那么这就是您正在学习的内容。

If the emotions are about the actual ideas in play, the math, the physics, why does the ball roll down the ramp?

如果情绪是关于游戏中的实际想法、数学、物理，那么为什么球会滚下坡道？

Wait a minute, that's the same as why the moon goes around, you know what I mean?

等一下，这和月亮绕地球转是一样的，你明白我的意思吗？

When the emotions are about ideas, then what you're engaging with is learning about ideas.

当情感与想法有关时，那么你所参与的就是学习想法。

And so what I would argue is that in setting up the kind of accountability system we have, we have taught people that their emotion should be about these high stakes accountability measures, which means that's what we're learning how to think about.

因此，我想说的是，在建立我们现有的问责制度时，我们已经告诉人们，他们的情绪应该关注这些高风险的问责措施，这意味着这就是我们正在学习如何思考的问题。

Andrew Huberman: Perform.

安德鲁·休伯曼：表演。

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang: Perform, not how to think about the ideas, not the intrinsic power of using math to understand the world in a different way.

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang：执行，而不是如何思考想法，而不是使用数学以不同方式理解世界的内在力量。

So how do you engage kids?

那么如何吸引孩子呢？

You engage kids by setting out rich problem spaces and problems that invite them to try to engage with something that piques your curiosity, that's meaningful to them, or have them bring in, where the kid who really hates it, like, what is it that you do find interesting kid?

你通过设置丰富的问题​​空间和问题来吸引孩子们，邀请他们尝试参与一些激发你好奇心的、对他们有意义的事情，或者让他们带进来，让真正讨厌它的孩子，比如，你觉得孩子有趣的是什么？

Start there.

从那里开始。

Start there.

从那里开始。

And start using your academic skills in a way that will give you power to do what it is you're interested in doing.

并开始运用你的学术技能，让你有能力去做你感兴趣的事情。

That's the way in.

这就是进去的路。

Use your writing, use your math, use your persuasive argument skills, use your filmmaking skills, whatever it is, to tell the story of something that you find deeply, meaningfully powerful to understand.

使用你的写作，使用你的数学，使用你的说服性论证技巧，使用你的电影制作技巧，无论是什么，来讲述一些你发现深刻、有意义且易于理解的故事。

And all of a sudden, you need the math.

突然之间，你需要数学。

Kids actually say things like, there's this lovely long quote from a Sudanese immigrant kid in one of these New York schools with the performance assessments in an article I wrote with a colleague named Doug Knecht.

孩子们实际上会说这样的话，这是纽约一所学校的苏丹移民孩子引用的一段可爱的长话，我和一位名叫道格·克尼希特的同事写了一篇文章，对表现进行了评估。

The article is called Building Meaning Builds Teens' Brains, you can find it in Educational Leadership.

这篇文章名为“构建意义构建青少年的大脑”，您可以在“教育领导力”中找到它。

There's a big long quote from this kid at the end, and he's basically explaining what math class meant to him, which he had never passed a math class before.

最后有一个很长的引用来自这个孩子，他基本上是在解释数学课对他意味着什么，而他以前从未通过过数学课。

And he says he got this problem called "Walking to the Door," which is basically Zeno's paradox, right?

他说他遇到了一个叫做“走到门口”的问题，这基本上是芝诺悖论，对吧？

You get halfway to the door, halfway to the door, halfway to the door.

你走到门的一半，门的一半，门的一半。

Do you ever get to the door?

你有到过门口吗？

Why?

为什么？

Andrew Huberman: Or why not?

安德鲁·休伯曼：或者为什么不呢？

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang: Right?

玛丽·海伦·伊莫迪诺-杨：对吗？

And they spent months learning the math that would help them get at that problem.

他们花了几个月的时间学习数学，这将有助于他们解决这个问题。

And he talks about how I had a problem, he says, and I had to learn fractions.

他谈到我是如何遇到问题的，他说，我必须学习分数。

I had to in order to be able to solve the problem I had.

我必须这样做才能解决我遇到的问题。

And as I engaged with fractions and that problem, I got fascinated, he says, by finite and infinite.

他说，当我研究分数和这个问题时，我对有限和无限着迷。

And these ideas were driving my need to learn to do fractions, right?

这些想法促使我需要学习做分数，对吗？

So we've got the cart before the horse.

所以我们本末倒置了。

I'm not saying you don't have to learn math or you don't have to learn to read or write or do all these other kinds of skills, but we make those, which is in the horse's cart?

我并不是说你不必学习数学，或者你不必学习阅读或写作或做所有这些其他类型的技能，但我们制造这些，这是在马车上？

What's in the cart?

购物车里有什么？

We call that the metric of the education system and the aim of it, when in fact it's the quality of the horse.

我们称之为教育体系的衡量标准及其目标，但实际上它是马匹的质量。

Can that horse pull the thing?

那匹马能拉东西吗？

That's the development of the person and what they put in their cart then serves that development.

这就是人的发展，他们放入购物车的东西就会服务于这种发展。

It's the toolkit of ways of knowing and understanding that come with you as you move into the world.

它是当你进入这个世界时伴随着你的认知和理解方式的工具包。

But this takes real developmental skill on the part of educators, who are not supported or resourced or trained to think about development in these ways.

但这需要教育工作者真正的发展技能，他们没有得到支持、资源或培训来以这些方式思考发展。

So you asked, when does this fall off?

那么你问，这个什么时候会掉下来？

It really depends in what school system you are and in what demographic you are when it falls off, but for almost everybody, except for the privileged few who are in very progressive alternative schools, it falls off by adolescence, which is when school gets serious.

这实际上取决于你所在的学校系统，以及当它下降时你属于什么人群，但对于几乎所有人来说，除了在非常进步的另类学校中的少数特权人士之外，它会在青春期开始下降，这是学校变得严肃的时候。

And it's also, ironically, when developmentally, kids are developing the neural capacity and the psychosocial capacity and the drive to infer complex narrative meaning from the things they are doing.

具有讽刺意味的是，在发展过程中，孩子们正在发展神经能力和社会心理能力，以及从他们所做的事情中推断出复杂的叙事意义的动力。

These aren't just my shoes, these are a statement about what I believe, about sustainability and about sports, and about adults and counterculture, right?

这些不仅仅是我的鞋子，它们是关于我的信仰、关于可持续发展、关于运动、关于成人和反主流文化的声明，对吧？

And as we grow into a space where we're driven to try to challenge and think about big meanings and engage with perspectives and emotions and social issues and broad, important existential questions, be they in physics or be they in art, or be they in the social civic domain, what do we do?

当我们成长到一个空间时，我们被迫尝试挑战和思考重大意义，并参与观点、情感、社会问题和广泛、重要的存在问题，无论是在物理学、艺术还是社会公民领域，我们该怎么办？

We double down on controlling the input and the output.

我们加倍努力控制输入和输出。

Transactional mechanisms that count as, "academic rigor and achievement." We start to ask, you know, what's the name of the servant who shows up in the scene in Great Expectations?

交易机制被视为“学术严谨性和成就”。我们开始问，你知道，《远大前程》中出现的仆人叫什么名字？

Is it Molly or is it Maria?

是莫莉还是玛丽亚？

And it's like, who the heck knows?

就像，谁知道呢？

And that is not the point of reading Great Expectations.

而这并不是阅读《远大前程》的目的。

We take away, because we're afraid, as educators, as society, we've got this narrative around young people's particular, but everyone's propensity to build and construct meaning in these spaces and self in these spaces.

我们拿走了，因为我们担心，作为教育者，作为社会，我们有关于年轻人的特殊性的叙述，但每个人都有在这些空间和这些空间中建立和构建意义的倾向。

That agency frightens us because we're worried they're going to take risks.

该机构让我们感到害怕，因为我们担心他们会冒险。

They're going to do something stupid, they're going to fall off the track, they're going to not make it in the traditional system.

他们会做一些愚蠢的事情，他们会脱离正轨，他们不会在传统系统中成功。

And in trying to protect them and shield them from their own curiosities, their own dispositions for meaning making, we, I would argue, actually stunt their ability to grow themselves to the point where we have mental health crises, literally crises in mental health right now in adolescents across demographic groups.

我认为，在试图保护他们并保护他们免受自己的好奇心和他们自己的意义创造倾向的影响时，我们实际上阻碍了他们自我成长的能力，以至于我们面临心理健康危机，实际上是现在各个人口群体的青少年的心理健康危机。

Andrew Huberman: Especially bad in young girls, as I understand.

安德鲁·休伯曼：据我了解，对年轻女孩来说尤其糟糕。

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang: Yes, that's right.

玛丽·海伦·伊莫迪诺-杨：是的，没错。

It's bad in everybody, and it's worse in girls.

这对每个人来说都是不好的，对女孩来说更糟。

Yes.

是的。

We don't fully understand why that is.

我们并不完全理解这是为什么。

We get some suggestions.

我们得到一些建议。

What we're really doing is actually producing people who are gutted of their own inner drive to become someone who thinks powerfully in the space of the world.

我们真正做的事情实际上是培养那些失去内在动力的人，让他们成为在世界空间中具有强大思考能力的人。

We are frightened to let our young people have that power, which is the role of adults, is to wrap around young people and help them learn, to be reflective, to be systematic, to be rigorous with themselves as they develop the capacities and dispositions to deconstruct their own beliefs, to deconstruct their own aims and goals and the ways they understand the world and to rebuild them iteratively, over and over in this sort of intellectually humble, curious way, where we're constantly querying ourselves, constantly querying other people, where we're willing to sit with uncertainty in complex problem spaces and think through the possibilities rather than settle quickly onto one solution.

我们害怕让我们的年轻人拥有这种力量，这就是成年人的角色，就是包围年轻人，帮助他们学习、反思、系统化、严格要求自己，因为他们发展能力和性格来解构自己的信仰，解构自己的目的和目标以及他们理解世界的方式，并以这种谦虚、好奇的方式迭代地、一遍又一遍地重建它们，我们不断地质疑自己，不断地质疑他人人们愿意在复杂的问题空间中面对不确定性并思考各种可能性，而不是快速确定一种解决方案。

What does school expect you to do?

学校希望你做什么？

Settle immediately onto one solution, which, by the way, is the solution I already had in mind when I gave you the question, right?

立即确定一个解决方案，顺便说一句，这就是我在向您提出问题时已经想到的解决方案，对吧？

As compared to sitting with young people and allowing them in safe and appropriate ways, the space in which to actually grapple with complex, powerful questions.

与与年轻人坐在一起并以安全和适当的方式允许他们相比，这是一个真正解决复杂而有力的问题的空间。

When kids develop the proclivities to do that, they learn how to manage those very human capacities that we've been talking about the whole time that can lead to terrible evil as well as amazing virtuousness, they learn to appreciate and manage those capacities within their own selves.

当孩子们养成了这样做的倾向时，他们就学会了如何管理我们一直在谈论的人类能力，这些能力可能导致可怕的邪恶和惊人的美德，他们学会欣赏和管理自己内心的这些能力。

Andrew Huberman: I think so much of what we see in terms of these "failure to launch" examples, because I know some of these, the children of friends, really smart kids that didn't map well to the system and therefore are not doing well, really struggling, and clearly have the intellectual power.

安德鲁·休伯曼：我对我们所看到的这些“启动失败”的例子有很多看法，因为我知道其中一些人，朋友的孩子，非常聪明的孩子，他们没有很好地适应系统，因此表现不佳，非常挣扎，并且显然拥有智力。

It just wasn't served up to them, and school wasn't served up to them in a way that works.

It just wasn't served up to them, and school wasn't served up to them in a way that works.

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang: That says as much about the system as it does about the kid, right?

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang: That says as much about the system as it does about the kid, right?

Andrew Huberman: Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。

I teach a course at Stanford to the medical students that every first year medical student takes about neuroscience.

I teach a course at Stanford to the medical students that every first year medical student takes about neuroscience.

It's team taught, it's a phenomenal course because of the range of expertise in the teaching that comes through.

这是一门非凡的课程，由团队授课，因为教学中涵盖了广泛的专业知识。

And one thing I've noticed is that they're all phenomenal teachers, but the best instructors do two things simultaneously when they teach.

我注意到的一件事是，他们都是出色的老师，但最好的老师在教学时会同时做两件事。

First of all, they come to the table with incredible expertise, obviously, these--

First of all, they come to the table with incredible expertise, obviously, these--

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang: --You have to deeply understand what you're trying to get at if you want people to engage with ideas.

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang: --You have to deeply understand what you're trying to get at if you want people to engage with ideas.

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman: They are true luminaries in their respective fields.

Andrew Huberman: They are true luminaries in their respective fields.

Addiction, pain, memory.

成瘾、痛苦、记忆。

Every system of the body and brain that relates to the nervous system is taught in this course, but that I've noticed every once in a while that there's a subset of them that as they teach from that position of expertise, not only are they clear, not only are they engaging, not only are their slides sparse enough to understand, but rich enough to include all the relevant detail, but they also flip back and forth from the position of expert to the position of novice, learning it for the first time.

与神经系统相关的身体和大脑的每一个系统都会在这门课程中教授，但我时不时地注意到，他们中的一部分人，当他们从专业立场进行教学时，他们不仅清晰，不仅有吸引力，他们的幻灯片不仅足够稀疏以便理解，而且足够丰富以包含所有相关细节，而且他们还会从专家的位置来回翻转到新手的位置，第一次学习它。

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang: It's that intellectual curiosity that they're keeping alive.

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang: It's that intellectual curiosity that they're keeping alive.

They have this disposition we're talking about cultivating.

他们具有我们正在谈论培养的这种性格。

Sorry to cut you off.

抱歉打断你了。

Andrew Huberman: No, please do.

安德鲁·休伯曼：不，请这样做。

As academics, we're familiar with that, right?

作为学者，我们对此很熟悉，对吗？

Interrupting in the landscape of academics, interrupting me is a sign of interest.

打扰学术界、打扰我是感兴趣的表现。

I think Carol Dweck was the one who told me that.

我认为卡罗尔·德韦克是告诉我这一点的人。

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang: Did she?

玛丽·海伦·伊莫迪诺-杨：是吗？

Okay.

好的。

She's right.

她是对的。

Andrew Huberman: And she's right, Carol.

安德鲁·休伯曼：她是对的，卡罗尔。

She's right.

她是对的。

The great, and so I've seen this especially, there are some topics that I like to think that I might do this reflexively for, because, for instance, I started off in neural development, and I adore the topic.

伟大的，所以我特别看到了这一点，有一些主题我喜欢认为我可能会本能地这样做，因为，例如，我从神经发育开始，我喜欢这个主题。

So I can't teach neural development without being completely blown away in the positive sense of how a brain develops.

因此，如果我不完全被大脑发育的积极意义所震撼，就无法教授神经发育。

Yeah, I've still never talked about this or done a podcast on it, because it tends to require visuals, and we don't use those because most people listen to the podcast, but maybe I'll do something just for YouTube at some point.

是的，我还没有谈论过这个，也没有做过播客，因为它往往需要视觉效果，而我们不使用这些，因为大多数人都听播客，但也许我会在某个时候为 YouTube 做一些事情。

But I think the same experience occurs when I see somebody like Dr. Sean Mackey, who runs our pain clinic at Stanford, teach about pain and the systems of the body that relate to pain and emotion and how to cure certain forms of pain, etc, treat pain.

但我认为，当我看到像肖恩·麦基博士这样的人（他在斯坦福大学经营我们的疼痛诊所）教授有关疼痛以及与疼痛和情绪相关的身体系统以及如何治疗某些形式的疼痛等、治疗疼痛时，也会发生同样的经历。

It's like he's clearly the world expert, but the way he describes a system, you can tell he's learning it again for the first time in parallel to all of that.

就好像他显然是世界专家一样，但从他描述系统的方式，你可以看出他是在所有这一切的同时第一次再次学习它。

And I feel like that ignites the emotional systems of the learner's brain in such a powerful way that is distinct from just hearing an expert talk about it.

我觉得这以一种强大的方式点燃了学习者大脑的情感系统，这与仅仅听专家谈论它不同。

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang: Something he's not relaying.

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang: Something he's not relaying.

He's not a squirrel with nuts and giving all the nuts to the kids.

他不是一只有坚果并将所有坚果都给孩子们的松鼠。

He's inventing the knowledge in front of them.

他正在他们面前发明知识。

Andrew Huberman: That's a great way to put it.

Andrew Huberman：这是一个很好的表达方式。

As usual, others are more succinct in collecting my ideas and expressing them than I am.

和往常一样，其他人比我更简洁地收集和表达我的想法。

So I think that's a powerful thing.

所以我认为这是一件很强大的事情。

I went to a high school that has kind of a split reputation.

我就读于一所声誉不佳的高中。

It's known as being one of the best public high schools in the country.

它被认为是全国最好的公立高中之一。

It's also the high school that, at least for a while, had one of the highest suicide rates in the country.

这所高中至少在一段时间内是全国自杀率最高的高中之一。

It's written up in various newspapers and so on, and so much so that nowadays they forbid the kids there from meeting more than an hour before school to practice for the standardized test.

它在各种报纸等上都有报道，以至于现在他们禁止那里的孩子在放学前一个多小时聚会练习标准化考试。

By the way, when I was at school, the only thing that school represented for me in high school was something that came between breakfast and skateboarding.

顺便说一句，当我在学校时，学校对我来说唯一代表高中的事情就是早餐和滑板之间的事情。

And frankly, I wasn't in school a lot, and I don't recommend that kids.

坦白说，我上学的时间不多，我不推荐孩子们去学校。

Go to school, stay in school.

去学校，留在学校。

I missed a lot of school.

我错过了很多学校。

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang: I had a lot of all kinds of weird things.

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang：我有很多各种各样奇怪的事情。

Andrew Huberman: I had a lot of making up to do in college as a consequence.

Andrew Huberman：因此，我在大学里有很多化妆要做。

So stay in school, get the basics.

所以留在学校，学习基础知识。

But this is actually where I'd like to go.

但这实际上是我想去的地方。

You have a very interesting trajectory.

你有一个非常有趣的轨迹。

Her you are, you're a university professor, you study emotion and learning and many other things across cultures and adolescence and so many other important topics.

你是一名大学教授，你研究情感和学习以及许多其他跨文化和青春期的事物以及许多其他重要主题。

But you were not a story like growing up in an academic family, you grew up on a farm?

但你不是一个在学术家庭长大的故事，你是在农场长大的？

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang: A sort of gentleman's farm.

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang：一种绅士的农场。

My dad was a surgeon, but we had animals in a farm, and my parents tried to have us growing the things we ate.

我父亲是一名外科医生，但我们在农场里饲养动物，我的父母试图让我们种植我们吃的东西。

Andrew Huberman: You've had a number of different experiences that we were talking about before we started recording.

Andrew Huberman：在我们开始录音之前，我们正在谈论你有很多不同的经历。

But one of the things that you mentioned was getting involved in education where you were exposed to students who had very different backgrounds than you.

但你提到的一件事是参与教育，你会接触到与你背景截然不同的学生。

Maybe you could just talk a little bit about sort of the nodes of your experience.

也许你可以简单谈谈你的经历的一些节点。

So you grew up on this farm and then maybe just hit some of the other nodes.

所以你在这个农场长大，然后可能会接触到其他一些节点。

And then let's take a foray into when you first got exposed to educating others, because I think that's an important backdrop for what we've been talking about here and serves as a jumping off point for where I'd like to go next.

然后让我们来谈谈你第一次接触教育他人的时间，因为我认为这是我们在这里讨论的一个重要背景，也是我下一步想要讨论的起点。

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang: I'll just jump in.

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang：我就插话吧。

I mean, it's always hard to talk about yourself.

我的意思是，谈论你自己总是很困难。

I don't know what's interesting and what's not.

我不知道什么有趣，什么不有趣。

It's just me.

这只是我。

Andrew Huberman: I think what's interesting is knowing where you've been and things that mapped back to your emotional networks in a way that, for you feel like, that mattered in terms of what you're doing now.

Andrew Huberman：我认为有趣的是知道你去过哪里以及映射回你的情感网络的事情，对你来说，这对你现在正在做的事情很重要。

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang: As a little kid, I remember, even as a little kid, not liking school, I was a very good kid.

玛丽·海伦·伊莫迪诺-杨：我记得，当我还是个小孩子的时候，即使是个不喜欢上学的小孩子，我也是一个非常好的孩子。

I was a very well behaved kid.

我是一个非常乖巧的孩子。

I went to a decent public school.

我去了一所像样的公立学校。

But just the whole idea of it, I just always felt like I had two left feet.

但就整个想法而言，我总是觉得我有两只左脚。

It never felt like it was really me there.

我从来没有感觉到那里真的是我。

I was always trying to escape a little bit, you know what I mean?

我总是想逃避一点，你知道我的意思吗？

And thinking about when I first started educating others, and my first memory of educating others specifically that comes to mind is I was six, and I went on a little vacation in the summer to stay with my cousins in Patoski, Michigan, which is a place on Lake Michigan, where there are these stones, where my understanding from when I was six is that there are these, like, 200 million year old fossilized worms in these stones.

想想我第一次开始教育别人的时候，我脑海中第一个专门教育别人的记忆是我六岁，夏天我去密歇根州帕托斯基和我的表兄弟姐妹住在一起，那是密歇根湖的一个地方，那里有这些石头，我六岁时的理解是，这些石头里有这些，就像2亿年前的化石蠕虫。

And you can see them.

你可以看到它们。

When you look at them, there's, like, little worms.

当你观察它们时，会发现它们就像是小虫子。

And you can see them.

你可以看到它们。

So I just was fascinated by these stones, that these are actual fossilized, 200 million year old worms.

所以我对这些石头很着迷，因为它们实际上是 2 亿年前的蠕虫化石。

And I don't know if that number is correct.

而且我不知道这个数字是否正确。

That's what I remember from age six.

这是我从六岁起就记得的事情。

So some paleontologist out there can correct me, but I collected these stones, and I went to the little local exhibit they had at the library or whatever, and I learned about these stones, and I brought some back.

所以那里的一些古生物学家可以纠正我，但我收集了这些石头，我去了他们在图书馆或其他地方举办的当地小型展览，我了解了这些石头，然后带了一些回来。

And somehow somebody thought to ask me to teach my second grade class when I started school about these stones.

不知何故，当我开始上学有关这些石头的课程时，有人想请我教我的二年级课程。

And I just remember, I don't know how I got asked to do this, but I remember standing in front of my class and talking about these stones and just looking around the room and suddenly noticing, you know that feeling when you're lecturing and you think, oh, my God, they're fascinated by what I'm saying.

我只记得，我不知道我是如何被要求这样做的，但我记得站在全班同学面前谈论这些石头，环顾房间，突然注意到，你知道当你讲课时的感觉，你会想，哦，天哪，他们对我所说的着迷。

Like, every kid is looking at me and like, holy crap.

就像，每个孩子都看着我，就像，天哪。

So I'm like, all right, I'll keep going.

所以我想，好吧，我会继续前进。

I'll tell you some more about these stones.

我会告诉你更多关于这些石头的信息。

And I passed them around or whatever, and it must have been okay, because I was then asked to give that talk all the way up to the fifth graders who were way older than me.

我把它们传给大家或者其他什么，这一定没问题，因为然后我被要求向比我大得多的五年级学生进行演讲。

Andrew Huberman: And you're a professor.

安德鲁·休伯曼：你是一名教授。

You're a professor.

你是一位教授。

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang: I was already fascinated by the natural world and able to make meaning out of something in a way that inspired other people, if I can be so blunt as to say that.

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang：我已经对自然世界着迷，并且能够以启发其他人的方式从某些事物中理解意义，如果我可以直言不讳地说的话。

And yet I was constantly in trouble at school for not having my homework, the feeling of release on the Friday afternoon and the feeling of dread on Sunday evening is hard to describe.

然而我在学校却经常因为没有作业而陷入麻烦，周五下午的解脱感和周日晚上的恐惧感很难形容。

And I went to a reasonably well resourced school.

我去了一所资源相当丰富的学校。

Anyway, fast forward up to when I was older.

无论如何，快进到我长大的时候。

I was just always fascinated by, and I think some of this comes from my mom too, trying, you know, to speak different languages, engage with people who are different than myself, just have conversations.

我一直很着迷，我想其中一些也来自我的妈妈，你知道，尝试说不同的语言，与与我不同的人交往，只是进行对话。

So from the time I was old enough to barely qualify to do these programs, my parents had the resources, luckily, to be able to let me do these things.

因此，从我年纪大到几乎没有资格参加这些项目的时候，幸运的是，我的父母有资源让我做这些事情。

But I went off to France and stayed on a farm there for a summer and went to Ireland, I went to Russia.

但我去了法国，在那里的一个农场呆了一个夏天，然后去了爱尔兰，我去了俄罗斯。

By the time I was 18, I was working with these little kids off the street and camping with them in southern Siberia and all these kinds of things.

当我 18 岁的时候，我已经和这些小孩子一起在街上工作，并和他们一起在西伯利亚南部露营等等。

Andrew Huberman: Is it as cold as they say in Siberia?

安德鲁·休伯曼：西伯利亚像他们说的那么冷吗？

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang: It was.

玛丽·海伦·伊莫迪诺-杨：是的。

Gloomy and rainy and muddy and cold.

阴沉、多雨、泥泞、寒冷。

Andrew Huberman: Yes, Siberia always sounds so bleak.

安德鲁·休伯曼：是的，西伯利亚听起来总是那么凄凉。

My parents threatened many times to send me.

我的父母多次威胁要送我去。

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang: No. Yeah, no, that's a real threat.

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang：不。是的，不，这是一个真正的威胁。

I mean, it's beautiful in many ways, but yeah, it was a sad, sad story.

我的意思是，它在很多方面都很美丽，但是，是的，这是一个悲伤的故事。

Anyway, I think what I was trying to do was actually learn by doing, by being, by engaging with other people who knew things I didn't.

不管怎样，我认为我想做的实际上是通过做、通过存在、通过与其他知道我不知道的事情的人交往来学习。

Learning how to, you know, build things.

你知道，学习如何构建东西。

I was always really interested in ward working and boat building.

我一直对病房工作和造船很感兴趣。

I went to Kenya and spent eight months there as an undergraduate documenting this traditional dhow construction in northern coast of--

作为一名本科生，我去了肯尼亚，在那里呆了八个月，记录了北部海岸这种传统的单桅帆船建造方式——

Andrew Huberman: --Dowel construction?--

安德鲁·休伯曼：--销钉结构？--

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang: Dhow, which are sailboats, sailboat construction where they have no electricity and everything.

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang：单桅帆船，这是一种帆船，在没有电力的情况下建造帆船等等。

Andrew Huberman: Cabinetry.

安德鲁·休伯曼：橱柜。

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang: Yeah, cabinetry.

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang：是的，橱柜。

You know what I mean?

你知道我的意思？

Andrew Huberman: You can actually build furniture.

Andrew Huberman：你实际上可以建造家具。

So when people say they built furniture, but they basically assembled the IKEA furniture, we're not talking about that.

因此，当人们说他们制造了家具，但他们基本上组装了宜家家具时，我们并不是在谈论这一点。

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang: Build cabinets and built in bookshelves and furniture.

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang：建造橱柜并内置书架和家具。

Some of my friends have pieces I made for them, I didn't make anything for myself, so I don't have...

我的一些朋友有我为他们制作的作品，我没有为自己制作任何东西，所以我没有......

Yeah, I mean, I think I was really torn between trying to build things and learn by engaging with other people and in these different cultural spaces.

是的，我的意思是，我认为我真的在尝试构建东西和通过与其他人互动以及在这些不同的文化空间中学习之间感到左右为难。

You know, being a woman in a cabinet shop in Connecticut is really not a cultural space that I had grown up in and then gone, you know what I mean.

你知道，作为一名在康涅狄格州一家橱柜店工作的女性，实际上并不是一个我长大后就离开的文化空间，你知道我的意思。

And yet, moving myself and changing myself to adapt to these different situations somehow felt like learning to me, I think.

然而，我认为，移动自己、改变自己以适应这些不同的情况，对我来说感觉像是在学习。

And I ended up in a strange situation where I cut my hand opening a window at a job site and I was on workers comp and I had to take some time to let it heal and I couldn't run machinery, so I had to figure out what to do with myself.

我最终陷入了一种奇怪的境地，我在工作现场打开窗户时割伤了手，而且我正在享受工人补偿，我必须花一些时间让它痊愈，而且我无法运行机器，所以我必须弄清楚自己该怎么办。

And I was 23 years old and I was not going to go back to my parents for more money, right?

我已经23岁了，我不会再向父母要更多的钱了，对吧？

So I thought, I have to support myself.

所以我想，我必须养活自己。

So I thought, Okay, I went to college at a high level, Ivy League school, and I majored in French because I could.

所以我想，好吧，我上了高水平的大学，常春藤盟校，我主修法语，因为我可以。

That's basically why I was like, I don't know, I better finish.

这基本上就是为什么我想，我不知道，我最好完成。

I better not flunk.

我最好不要不及格。

I can do French.

我会法语。

I know I speak French fluently.

我知道我法语说得很流利。

I'll do a French literature major and be done with it quickly.

我会主修法国文学并很快完成。

Then I'm like, what am I going to do with myself?

然后我想，我该怎么办？

I never thought I could be a scientist, but I loved science, so I just went around taking like a year of every science.

我从来没有想过我可以成为一名科学家，但我热爱科学，所以我花了一年的时间学习每门科学。

I took a year of astronomy and a year of biology and a year of physics and a year of human anthropology, paleoanthropology, like all these things, psychology, and realized, holy crap, this is super interesting.

我学了一年天文学、一年生物学、一年物理学、一年人类学、古人类学，就像所有这些东西、心理学，然后意识到，天哪，这太有趣了。

You can study how babies think and the natural world and then also be bringing sort of a scientific lens to bear that helps you understand things in a new way.

你可以研究婴儿的思维方式和自然世界，然后用科学的视角来帮助你以新的方式理解事物。

Here I was, as a 23 year old with a cut hand, and I thought, what am I going to do with myself?

23 岁的我，手被割伤了，我想，我该怎么办？

I convinced the Massachusetts Board of Education that I had the background knowledge to be able to teach some sections of AP Biology and Physics that they had in their high school.

我让马萨诸塞州教育委员会相信我拥有足够的背景知识来教授他们在高中时所学的 AP 生物和物理部分内容。

So when I got to finally get an interview with this public school district in South Boston, where they were desperate for a teacher, like I'm noticing in the Boston Globe, we're two weeks into the school year and you still don't have a teacher.

因此，当我最终得到南波士顿这个公立学区的采访时，他们迫切需要一名老师，就像我在《波士顿环球报》上注意到的那样，我们开学已经两周了，但仍然没有老师。

You know what I mean?

你知道我的意思？

Why don't you take me?

你为什么不带我去？

And managed to convince the Massachusetts Board of Education to give me provisional teacher certification based on the coursework I'd done and how well I did in that coursework because I was really super motivated.

并成功说服马萨诸塞州教育委员会根据我完成的课程作业以及我在该课程作业中的表现向我颁发临时教师证书，因为我真的非常积极。

I did extremely well in all of it.

我在这一切方面都做得非常好。

And when I got there, they basically said, when I showed up for the interview, the high school teacher wants to take those AP classes.

当我到达那里时，他们基本上说，当我参加面试时，高中老师想要参加那些 AP 课程。

Can you just teach full time 7th grade?

你可以全职教七年级吗？

So I was like, okay.

所以我想，好吧。

So I had my full contingent of 130 kids, right, 7th graders coming through my classroom.

因此，我的教室里有 130 名孩子（右），七年级的学生。

And the middle school had just been shut down because there wasn't sufficient funding in the town for it.

由于镇上没有足够的资金，这所中学刚刚被关闭。

So they had taken the middle school kids and pushed them into the high school space.

所以他们把中学生带到了高中。

What that basically meant is I suddenly found myself in a fully equipped high school classroom with microscopes and all kinds of scientific equipment that would be used to teach later courses with my 7th graders.

这基本上意味着我突然发现自己身处一个设备齐全的高中教室，里面有显微镜和各种科学设备，这些设备将用于与我的七年级学生教授后续课程。

And it also happened that the Massachusetts Board of Education had changed the requirements for the way they organized science instruction and curriculum from 7th grade life science, 8th grade physical science, whatever it was, different sciences each year.

而且马萨诸塞州教育委员会也改变了他们组织科学教学和课程的要求，从七年级生命科学、八年级物理科学，无论是什么，每年都有不同的科学。

They wanted an integrated, interdisciplinary science all the way across.

他们想要一门综合的、跨学科的科学。

And of course, that was very difficult for the traditional science teachers to do because they'd been teaching only biology or only Earth science or only physical science for their whole career, and they didn't know how to teach the other subjects.

当然，这对于传统的科学教师来说是非常困难的，因为他们在整个职业生涯中只教授生物学或地球科学或物理科学，并且他们不知道如何教授其他科目。

And here comes me with like, one intensive year of study in each of these domains.

我在每个领域都进行了为期一年的强化学习。

I was perfectly situated to try to pull it together.

我处于完美的位置，可以尝试将其整合在一起。

So some of the high school teachers helped me.

所以一些高中老师帮助了我。

Thank you to them.

谢谢他们。

And I built out a new curriculum for 7th grade for that district around this interdisciplinary approach to science together with other teachers.

我与其他老师一起围绕这种跨学科的科学方法为该地区的七年级制定了新课程。

Andrew Huberman: It was very hands-on?

Andrew Huberman：非常亲力亲为？

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang: Very.

玛丽·海伦·伊莫迪诺-杨：非常。

And it was very much like a web of concepts.

它非常像一个概念网。

We'd study nuclear fission and atoms and reactions, and then the sun and astronomy and the solar system, and then how the energy is being shined over onto the planets and then the Earth.

我们将研究核裂变、原子和反应，然后研究太阳、天文学和太阳系，然后研究能量如何照射到行星和地球上。

And then these organisms called plants are actually using those photons to do something chemical.

然后这些被称为植物的生物体实际上正在利用这些光子来进行化学反应。

Let's talk about photosynthesis, and then we can talk about chemical reactions and breaking down sugars and molecules.

我们来谈谈光合作用，然后我们可以谈谈化学反应和分解糖和分子。

So we built this whole web-like curriculum that I was trying to help the kids appreciate the sort of dynamic complexity of the natural world.

因此，我们建立了整个类似网络的课程，我试图帮助孩子们欣赏自然世界的动态复杂性。

And some of my professors from Cornell also sent me materials and all kinds of cool stuff from the Cornell Museum that they didn't really need.

康奈尔大学的一些教授也从康奈尔博物馆给我寄来了他们并不真正需要的材料和各种很酷的东西。

And then I gave it back when I was done with all these instructions, what all this stuff is on hominid evolution and Acheulean hand axes and all kinds of stuff.

当我完成所有这些说明后，我把它还给了我，所有这些东西都是关于原始人类进化和阿舍利手斧以及各种各样的东西。

So I built out a curriculum around all this stuff, and I realized for the first time that I was in this amazingly fascinating space, because it just so happened that the school I was working in was one of the most culturally diverse in the nation at that time.

所以我围绕所有这些东西建立了一个课程，我第一次意识到我处于这个令人惊奇的迷人空间，因为碰巧我工作的学校是当时全国文化最多元化的学校之一。

I think we had something like 81 languages spoken out of 100 kids.

我想我们 100 个孩子会说 81 种语言。

Andrew Huberman: Wow.

安德鲁·休伯曼：哇。

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang: That's a lot of first languages.

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang：有很多第一语言。

And kids were arriving from all over the world.

孩子们从世界各地赶来。

This was right after the Rwandan genocide.

这是卢旺达种族灭绝之后不久的事。

So kids were coming in from East Africa.

所以孩子们都是从东非进来的。

There were refugees from Kosovo and Eastern Europe.

其中有来自科索沃和东欧的难民。

There were kids coming in from Jamaica.

有孩子从牙买加进来。

There were kids coming in from Haiti.

有来自海地的孩子。

There were kids from Malaysia.

有来自马来西亚的孩子。

And there were kids landing in that class like deer in the headlights from very broad ranges of cultural backgrounds.

进入这个班级的孩子们就像车灯下的鹿一样，来自非常广泛的文化背景。

And they're landing in my science class.

他们即将进入我的科学课。

And what I quickly realized is they were using these scientific ways of exploring the world and thinking about questions and trying to make sense of what they had witnessed, to try to understand their own sort of selves, their own origin story, their own place in the world.

我很快意识到，他们正在使用这些科学方法来探索世界，思考问题，试图理解他们所目睹的一切，试图理解他们自己的类型，他们自己的起源故事，他们自己在世界上的位置。

Why different people in this class looked and ate differently than me, dressed differently than me?

为什么这个班上不同的人看起来和吃的东西都与我不同，穿着也与我不同？

Like, how is it that you look like that and I look like this?

比如说，你怎么长成这个样子，而我长成这个样子？

And there was all this crazy adolescent turmoil layered into this space where kids were grabbing onto the scientific ways of knowing as a handle to try to make sense of who they are.

所有这些疯狂的青春期混乱都层层渗透到这个空间中，孩子们抓住科学的认知方法作为把手，试图理解自己是谁。

And those kids started asking questions of me.

那些孩子开始问我问题。

I'll never forget this.

我永远不会忘记这一点。

One girl, black girl, raised her hand, and all the other kids are looking at her.

一个女孩，黑人女孩，举起了手，所有其他孩子都看着她。

Yeah, yeah, ask it, ask.

是啊是啊，问吧，问吧。

You know, she was being brave.

你知道，她很勇敢。

Like, she talked about it before school.

就像，她在上学前谈论过这件事。

Like, I can't say that.

比如说，我不能这么说。

And they're like, yeah, say it, say it.

他们就像，是的，说吧，说吧。

And she said, Miss Immordino, why is it that when we're studying hominid evolution and you show us this NOVA episode with early hominids in Africa, why do they always show those creatures looking like they have dark skin?

她说，伊莫迪诺小姐，为什么当我们研究原始人类进化时，你向我们展示了非洲早期原始人类的新星剧集，为什么他们总是展示那些看起来有深色皮肤的生物？

Why do they always look like black people?

为什么他们总是看起来像黑人？

And I was like, well, because they're on the equator, and you need that level of melanin in your skin to be able to adapt and live without getting skin cancer in that space.

我当时想，好吧，因为它们位于赤道上，你的皮肤中需要一定水平的黑色素才能适应并生活，而不会患上皮肤癌。

And it opened up this amazing class discussion that actually went on for months, like, evolved into a whole curriculum.

它开启了这个令人惊叹的课堂讨论，实际上持续了几个月，就像演变成一个完整的课程一样。

That was biology, it was culture, it was sociality, where we started to really unpack the ways that we, as humans, are natural beings in the world and the ways in which our cultural experiences are extensions of our natural ways of adapting.

这就是生物学、文化、社会性，我们开始真正了解我们作为人类是世界上的自然存在的方式，以及我们的文化经验是我们自然适应方式的延伸的方式。

And that had me hooked.

这让我着迷。

I realized then that I could bring science, right, the science of adolescent development and of learning and of emotion and of culture to this very pressing real world problem of how do we help our kids actually figure out who they are, invent themselves in this crazy multicultural space, and become scholars and intellectuals who engage systematically with the ideas along the way.

然后我意识到，我可以将科学，对，青少年发展、学习、情感和文化的科学带入这个非常紧迫的现实世界问题，即我们如何帮助我们的孩子真正弄清楚他们是谁，在这个疯狂的多元文化空间中创造自己，并成为一路上系统地参与思想的学者和知识分子。

And so I took those ideas and I started going to night school at Harvard Extension School to study cognitive neuroscience and to study language and cognition and all these kinds of topics, and quickly realized, like, I really needed this developmental perspective infused, right?

所以我接受了这些想法，开始去哈佛扩展学校的夜校学习认知神经科学，研究语言和认知以及所有这些类型的主题，然后很快意识到，我真的需要注入这种发展视角，对吗？

I wanted to understand not just how these things work, but how they got that way.

我不仅想了解这些东西是如何运作的，而且还想了解它们是如何实现的。

And so I took that back to grad school at Harvard and began to study social and cultural and emotional and cognitive development in kids.

所以我把它带回哈佛大学研究生院，开始研究儿童的社会、文化、情感和认知发展。

And quickly, there, also kind of hit a wall where I went back to the school district in which I worked, and I went back to the teachers who were my colleagues, and I worked with them, and I observed their classes, and I interviewed their students, and we did all kinds of work around how kids were building scientific concepts in ways that reflected their cultural concepts and ways of approaching the world.

很快，我就碰壁了，我回到了我工作的学区，回到了我的同事老师那里，我和他们一起工作，我观察了他们的课程，我采访了他们的学生，我们围绕孩子们如何以反映他们的文化观念和接触世界的方式建立科学概念进行了各种工作。

And I quickly realized, it seems to me, that kids are doing all this meaning making, and we as adults, are doing all this supportive meaning making.

我很快意识到，在我看来，孩子们正在做所有这些意义创造，而我们作为成年人，正在做所有这些支持性意义创造。

We're also engaging and growing and learning in ways that reflect not just knowledge bits like little computers, but also that reflect the biological substrate on which the learning and the thinking are happening.

我们参与、成长和学习的方式不仅反映了像小计算机这样的知识点，而且还反映了学习和思考发生的生物基础。

And I wanted very much to understand how we could use and leverage developmental biology as a kind of constraint from which to appreciate the kinds of theoretical frames we were inventing in the real world, sort of anthropological, educational space, the developmental psychological space.

我非常想了解我们如何使用和利用发育生物学作为一种约束，从中欣赏我们在现实世界中发明的各种理论框架，例如人类学、教育空间、发展心理空间。

How could these two systems act as a venn diagram?

这两个系统如何充当维恩图？

And how could the intersection between them, the places where the theorizing about the natural behaviors and the way kids were making meaning and learning and describing their knowledge and engaging with each other, on the one hand, and the ways in which the brain and the biology are engaging in or supporting those processes, on the other hand, the places where those two circles would overlap, it seemed to me that was where we could most directly target, to start to deeply understand the nature of our developmental, psychobiological growth and selves.

一方面，关于自然行为的理论以及孩子们创造意义、学习、描述他们的知识和相互交流的方式，以及大脑和生物学参与或支持这些过程的方式，另一方面，这两个圆圈重叠的地方，在我看来，这就是我们最直接的目标，开始深入理解我们的发展、心理生物学成长和自我的本质，它们之间的交叉点如何能实现呢？

And so I set out to try to study the ways in which culture and sociality shape the brain and physiology and survival mechanisms and development.

因此，我开始尝试研究文化和社会性塑造大脑、生理、生存机制和发展的方式。

And at that time, which wasn't even that long ago, it's like two decades ago, quickly realized very, very little was known about the way in which emotions beyond things like, you know, I flash a snake in your face and your amygdala lights up, like I was thinking of something a little more nuanced, you know what I mean?

那时，就在不久前，就像二十年前一样，很快意识到人们对情感的方式知之甚少，除了诸如，你知道，我在你脸上闪出一条蛇，你的杏仁核亮了起来，就像我在思考一些更微妙的事情，你知道我的意思吗？

Like what I'm seeing happening in science class among a kid from Kosovo and a kid from Rwanda, as they're trying to figure out why they understand how they look different, right?

就像我在科学课上看到的一个来自科索沃的孩子和一个来自卢旺达的孩子所发生的事情一样，他们试图找出为什么他们理解自己看起来不同，对吗？

Those deeply emotional conversations they're having, but they're not so cut and dry as the things we had been studying.

他们正在进行的那些深感情感的对话，但并不像我们一直在研究的事情那么简单和枯燥。

And so that's what really drove me to try to start to understand, in an integrated way, the way in which our biological development and our psychological development are actually sort of two sides of who we are and of how we're organizing ourselves to build capacity, mental capacity, as well as sort of physical health and capacity, over the course of our lives as we're engaging with living.

因此，这真正促使我开始尝试以一种综合的方式来理解，我们的生物发展和心理发展实际上是我们是谁的两个方面，以及我们在生活过程中如何组织自己以建立能力、心理能力以及身体健康和能力的方式。

Andrew Huberman: Incredible story, and foray into what sounds to me like, really, your ability to identify how the universals among us, like the universal biological features, the universal psychological features, can really strongly inform specifically what's happening now.

安德鲁·休伯曼：令人难以置信的故事，在我看来，你真的有能力识别我们之间的普遍性，比如普遍的生物特征、普遍的心理特征，如何能够真正强烈地具体告知现在正在发生的事情。

In a classroom interaction in the mind of you or somebody else or of any of us, but to approach it from the other direction, in other words, to take what's happening now and say, why is what's happening now happening?

在你或其他人或我们任何人的头脑中的课堂互动中，但要从另一个方向接近它，换句话说，采取现在正在发生的事情并说，为什么现在正在发生这种情况？

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang: As opposed to just saying what is actually happening underneath the surface of the behavior.

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang：而不是仅仅说出行为表面下实际发生的情况。

Andrew Huberman: Right.

安德鲁·休伯曼：对。

As opposed to saying, okay, this is the psychology of character structure.

而不是说，好吧，这是性格结构的心理学。

This is the biology of the hypothalamus.

这是下丘脑的生物学。

But rather, you know, is anyone else really shocked about the school shooting in Nashville?

但是，你知道，还有其他人对纳什维尔的校园枪击事件感到真正震惊吗？

And go through the feeling of shock and go from there to the biology as a route of learning?

经历震惊的感觉并从那里转向生物学作为学习途径？

And of course, I don't want to take away anything from the real world seriousness of that, but it sounds to me like you saw that there's a different portal through which to teach and understand experience, and that we are all, but especially young people, are really tied to our emotional states as the main filters in which we like that, dislike that, and therefore make decisions and move through life.

当然，我不想从现实世界中抹去任何严肃性，但在我看来，你似乎看到了有一个不同的门户可以通过它来教授和理解经验，我们所有人，尤其是年轻人，都与我们的情绪状态紧密相关，作为我们喜欢、不喜欢的主要过滤器，因此我们做出决定并度过生活。

I mean, I think it's so key that early on, if we like a teacher, oftentimes we like the subject.

我的意思是，我认为这一点非常关键，如果我们喜欢一位老师，我们通常就会喜欢这个科目。

If we happen to fall in love with Figure 4b in a paper, great.

如果我们碰巧爱上了论文中的图 4b，那就太好了。

But that's not how I went through graduate school.

但这并不是我读研究生的方式。

I just was blown away by the fact that sperm meets egg, you get a bunch of cell duplications, and then you get a brain.

我对精子与卵子相遇的事实感到震惊，你得到了一堆细胞复制，然后你得到了一个大脑。

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang: And then you get a brain, like crud, how does that happen?

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang：然后你就会得到一个大脑，就像泥土一样，这是怎么发生的？

That's crazy.

太疯狂了。

Andrew Huberman: Amazing.

安德鲁·休伯曼：太棒了。

And I was blessed with a graduate advisor who literally told me, this is how it works in my lab, is what she said.

我很幸运有一位研究生导师，她确实告诉我，这就是我实验室的工作原理，她是这么说的。

She said, we have everything you need here.

她说，我们这里有你需要的一切。

I'll help you if you need help, but basically you're going to mess around with stuff.

如果你需要帮助，我会帮助你，但基本上你会把事情搞砸。

You're not going to burn down the lab, you're not going to kill yourself with any of the poisonous stuff, but then you're going to mess some stuff up and do some stuff, and you're going to figure some stuff out.

你不会烧毁实验室，你不会用任何有毒的东西自杀，但你会搞砸一些东西，做一些事情，然后你会解决一些问题。

This was literally the description.

这就是字面上的描述。

And I liked her lab because they had green countertops and she had pictures of interesting animals on the wall.

我喜欢她的实验室，因为他们有绿色的台面，墙上挂着有趣的动物的照片。

And then she said, and I'm going to have two kids while you're in graduate school, so I'm not going to be around very much.

然后她说，你读研究生期间我要生两个孩子，所以我不会经常在你身边。

You're going to have to figure it out on your own.

你必须自己解决这个问题。

And I said, well, can I play the music I want?

我说，好吧，我可以播放我想要的音乐吗？

And she said, sure.

她说，当然。

And I said, can I put tinfoil on the windows because I don't want to be bothered?

我说，我可以在窗户上贴锡纸吗，因为我不想被打扰？

And she said, sure.

她说，当然。

And I was like, okay, this is the place for me.

我当时想，好吧，这就是适合我的地方。

In other words, she gave me a room to explore, and of course, she gave me a lot of guidance along the way.

换句话说，她给了我一个探索的空间，当然，一路上她给了我很多指导。

She was an amazing graduate advisor.

她是一位出色的研究生导师。

I'm extremely blessed.

我非常幸运。

But it sounds to me like that identifying what's really going on now is key.

但在我看来，确定现在到底发生了什么是关键。

And that the other thing that's key is an openness to ideas.

另一件关键的事情是对想法的开放。

I mean, earlier you talked about kind of the, let's just admit where we're at right now.

我的意思是，之前您谈到过，让我们承认我们现在所处的位置。

We're in a culture war right now.

我们现在正处于一场文化战争中。

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang: We're in a weird space right now.

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang：我们现在处于一个奇怪的空间。

Andrew Huberman: It's very divisive.

安德鲁·休伯曼：这是非常分裂的。

And one of the major problems is that we can't really talk about things.

主要问题之一是我们无法真正谈论事情。

I mean, I think fear of getting canceled, fear of exploring ideas is real.

我的意思是，我认为害怕被取消、害怕探索想法是真实的。

It's very real.

这是非常真实的。

Not just for academics.

不仅仅是针对学者。

It's just real.

这是真的。

People are so, it's important to be sensitive to the experiences of others, absolutely, but if we can't actually explore ideas and feel like we can walk out of the room safely, then we can't really explore ideas.

人们是如此，对他人的经历保持敏感绝对很重要，但如果我们不能真正探索想法并感觉我们可以安全地走出房间，那么我们就无法真正探索想法。

And so I think right now it's not just social media.

所以我认为现在不仅仅是社交媒体。

I think it's the fear of offending anybody and probably the fear of voicing how upset certain people are about their experiences or the experiences of others.

我认为这是害怕冒犯任何人，也可能是害怕表达某些人对他们的经历或他人的经历有多么不安。

Whatever it is, I don't see a landscape right now where there is true, open exploration of ideas anywhereA anywhere, at least in this country.

不管是什么，我现在看不到任何地方都可以真正、开放地探索思想，至少在这个国家是这样。

So what do we do if at least two of the requirements are an emotional gripping of something around the learning, plus an openness to thinking about things that maybe don't feel right to us as a way to learn how to think something?

那么，如果至少有两个要求是对学习过程中的某些事物的情感把握，再加上对我们可能感觉不正确的事物的开放思考，作为学习如何思考事物的一种方式，我们该怎么办？

I think we both agree, if I may, that is really critical and that the world would be a far better place if people could do that.

我想我们都同意，如果可以的话，这确实至关重要，如果人们能够做到这一点，世界将会变得更加美好。

And how do we navigate this landscape?

我们如何驾驭这一景观？

I mean, is what has to come first a demonstration of the value of the openness of ideas?

我的意思是，首先必须要证明思想开放的价值吗？

And here I'll just state my stance.

在这里我只是表明我的立场。

I feel like any idea should be open to at least discussion, any idea.

我觉得任何想法都应该至少接受讨论，任何想法。

But then it needs to be systematically dissected with some rigor so that people can't just assume any idea is true.

但随后需要对它进行系统、严格的剖析，这样人们就不能假设任何想法都是正确的。

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang: Just because it's true for them.

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang：因为这对他们来说是真实的。

Andrew Huberman: Just because it's true for them.

Andrew Huberman：因为这对他们来说是真实的。

And this I actually learned from my graduate advisor.

这实际上是我从我的研究生导师那里学到的。

She used to say tolerance has to go both ways when it comes to thinking about ideas and criticizing.

她曾经说过，在思考想法和批评方面，宽容必须是双向的。

It can't just be, I'm right, they're wrong, or I don't tolerate that.

不能只是我是对的，他们是错的，或者我不能容忍这种情况。

It has to be tolerance for all ideas.

它必须容忍所有想法。

And then you arrive at, hopefully eventually, core truths, or at least core trajectories.

然后你希望最终能够得出核心事实，或者至少是核心轨迹。

What do you think could support this?

您认为什么可以支持这一点？

How early should this start?

这应该多久开始？

I mean, should kids in elementary school be discussing the current landscape of politics and what they see from a place of, like, we talk about safe spaces, but is a safe space one in which no one gets offended, or is a safe space one in which any idea can be discussed?

我的意思是，小学的孩子们是否应该讨论当前的政治格局以及他们从某个地方看到的东西，比如我们谈论安全空间，但安全空间是一个不会冒犯任何人的安全空间，还是一个可以讨论任何想法的安全空间？

I think that's never really been defined for me.

我认为这对我来说从来没有真正定义过。

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang: Yeah, that's a really fraught issue.

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang：是的，这是一个非常令人担忧的问题。

First, let me go back to something you said, which I would have said differently.

首先，让我回到你所说的，我本来会以不同的方式表达。

So you said our emotions are a filter, and they do act like a filter, but I actually don't think emotions are really filter-like so much as they are the drives that are undergirding the impetus to think.

所以你说我们的情绪是一个过滤器，它们确实起到了过滤器的作用，但实际上我不认为情绪真的像过滤器一样，因为它们是支撑思考动力的驱动力。

They're pushing us to think about particular things.

它们促使我们思考特定的事情。

And I think, I mean, as a scientist, my disposition is always that to understand something is good.

我认为，我的意思是，作为一名科学家，我的性格始终是理解某些东西是好的。

And the more complexly, the more thoroughly you can interrogate and understand something, the better.

事情越复杂，你能够越彻底地询问和理解某件事就越好。

So there's nothing I'm afraid of knowing.

所以我没有什么害怕知道的。

And what you're really talking about there is the fear of knowing.

你真正谈论的是对了解的恐惧。

Why are people so afraid to engage with each other?

为什么人们如此害怕彼此交往？

Basically, because it's deeply threatening to reveal things about your own experience that are not going to land in a space where we can kind of collectively engage with them as legitimate experience.

基本上，因为揭露有关你自己经历的事情是一种深深的威胁，而这些事情不会出现在我们可以作为合法经历集体参与的空间中。

That's sort of the opposite of canceling people.

这与取消人员有点相反。

It's the opposite of dismissing people.

这与解雇人相反。

It's actually developing spaces of trust where we can engage with ideas and take them from ourselves.

它实际上是在发展信任的空间，我们可以在其中参与想法并从我们自己那里获取它们。

So that they're no longer personal value judgments.

这样它们就不再是个人价值判断。

They become cultural memes or models or schemas that we can dissect together, that we can engage with together and construct understanding around.

它们成为我们可以一起剖析、共同参与并构建理解的文化模因、模型或图式。

And I don't really understand my own position unless I also understand your opposition to my position, even if I still disagree with you.

我并不真正理解我自己的立场，除非我也理解你对我立场的反对，即使我仍然不同意你的观点。

I think there are really important conversations going on right now.

我认为现在正在进行非常重要的对话。

I'll take it back to the education system because that's what I know most about.

我会把它带回教育系统，因为那是我最了解的。

There are really important conversations going around right now around reframing the experience and outcomes and aims of schooling around civic discourse and reasoning.

现在正在围绕围绕公民话语和推理重新构建学校教育的经验、成果和目标进行非常重要的对话。

So there was just a major report that was produced by the National Academy of Education and other academies collaborating with it, for example, around this topic and helping us to move as a society toward a space where we learn to kind of lay ideas out and develop skills for reasoning around those ideas, including bringing ethical, experiential, emotional, cultural values to bear, but then being willing to deconstruct and engage with those ideas, whether they're the ones that are commensurate and fluid with our experience, or that appear to be conflicting or disfluent with our experience.

因此，美国国家教育学院和其他学院与之合作编写了一份重要报告，例如，围绕这个主题，帮助我们作为一个社会走向一个空间，在这个空间中，我们学会提出想法并培养围绕这些想法进行推理的技能，包括引入伦理、经验、情感、文化价值观，但随后愿意解构和参与这些想法，无论它们是与我们的经验相称且流畅的想法，还是看起来与我们的经验相称的想法。与我们的经验相冲突或不相容。

We need to develop spaces for young people especially, but for everyone to engage with the deconstruction of our own assumptions, like I said before, and to engage with the deconstruction of others assumptions, and to try to reconcile the building blocks.

我们尤其需要为年轻人开发空间，但要让每个人都参与解构我们自己的假设，就像我之前所说的那样，参与解构其他人的假设，并尝试协调各个组成部分。

And that's where we can build some common ground.

这就是我们可以建立一些共同点的地方。

But we can also disagree.

但我们也可以不同意。

But we don't really understand our own position unless we appreciate someone else's disagreement with our position.

但除非我们理解别人与我们立场的不同意见，否则我们并不能真正理解自己的立场。

Unless we can actually articulate and appreciate how it is that person's opinion is opposed to mine.,I don't really understand mine.

除非我们能够真正清楚地表达和理解那个人的观点与我的观点相反。,我真的不明白我的观点。

Andrew Huberman: It's such a key point.

Andrew Huberman：这是一个关键点。

One of the reasons why I do read all the comments on podcasts on YouTube, it takes me some time, but I do it, or on social media is that oftentimes I'll get a comment or criticism that makes it very clear that I wasn't clear about something.

我确实阅读 YouTube 上播客上的所有评论的原因之一，这需要我一些时间，但我会这样做，或者在社交媒体上，因为我经常会收到评论或批评，这些评论或批评很清楚地表明我对某些事情不清楚。

Other times I'll get a comment or criticism that makes it clear that I and the other person fundamentally disagree about something, both of which are great and for a scientist, is a delight.

其他时候，我会收到评论或批评，明确表明我和另一个人在某些事情上存在根本分歧，这两者都很棒，对于科学家来说，这是一种乐趣。

Keep it coming.

继续吧。

And of course, when people agree and they agree and make it clear that they agree from a stance of understanding, that, of course is also gratifying.

当然，当人们同意并且他们同意并明确表示他们从理解的立场上同意时，这当然也是令人高兴的。

So it's exactly what you're saying.

所以这正是你所说的。

And it's one of the upsides, I think, of social media, which is that unless people block their comment section, and I do occasionally block people if they're being offensive to other people.

我认为，这是社交媒体的优点之一，除非人们屏蔽他们的评论部分，如果有人冒犯其他人，我偶尔会屏蔽他们。

You can say whatever you want to me--

你可以对我说任何你想说的话——

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang: --That's not alienating people.

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang：——这并不是疏远人们。

That's not inviting people into a conversation that's not constructive.

这并不是邀请人们参与没有建设性的对话。

Andrew Huberman: I actually have a rule, which is, I call it classroom rules.

安德鲁·休伯曼：我实际上有一条规则，我称之为课堂规则。

I've never announced it, but I allow for classroom rules.

我从未宣布过，但我允许课堂规则。

You can swear, but you can't swear at people.

你可以骂人，但不能骂人。

Yeah, that's what I was taught in graduate school.

是的，这就是我在研究生院所教的。

Swear, but you can't swear at people.

可以骂人，但不能骂人。

It's also our rule at home, although we try not to swear.

这也是我们在家里的规则，尽管我们尽量不说脏话。

So you can swear, but swearing at people is not okay.

所以你可以骂人，但骂人是不行的。

And that a certain decorum is required in order to have open discourse.

为了进行公开讨论，需要一定的礼仪。

So that works for me.

所以这对我有用。

I think that it's been a while since I've been in school, but I work at a school, and I think that the ability to not just reinforce but challenge one's own stances, which sometimes leads to reinforcing our own stances, as it very well may.

我想我已经有一段时间没有上学了，但我在一所学校工作，我认为这种能力不仅能够强化而且挑战自己的立场，这有时会导致强化我们自己的立场，这很有可能。

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang: And that's legitimate.

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang：这是合法的。

Andrew Huberman: I mean, I have to assume that in high schools they still do debates and things of that sort.

安德鲁·休伯曼：我的意思是，我必须假设在高中他们仍然进行辩论和类似的事情。

Do they allow that?

他们允许吗？

Could you throw kids in a class and say, let's debate something really controversial, but you have to debate it from the other side?

你能否把孩子们扔进课堂并说，让我们辩论一些真正有争议的事情，但你必须从另一方进行辩论？

I mean, just as an experiment of forcing the brain to try to be effective for sake of winning.

我的意思是，就像一个迫使大脑为了获胜而努力发挥作用的实验。

But from the other perspective or stance, it seems like a great exercise.

但从另一个角度或立场来看，这似乎是一个很好的练习。

If I were a high school teacher, that's the first thing I'd do.

如果我是一名高中老师，这就是我要做的第一件事。

We'd pick the most controversial topic, and then I'd ask people to divide along that topic, and then I'd swap them into the other one and have them argue from the other one's stance.

我们会选择最具争议性的主题，然后我会要求人们按照该主题进行划分，然后我会将他们交换到另一个主题，并让他们从另一个人的立场进行辩论。

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang: Yeah.

玛丽·海伦·伊莫迪诺-杨：是的。

Learning to appreciate perspectives is very--

学会欣赏观点非常——

Andrew Huberman: --And we'd use 14 ounce gloves.

Andrew Huberman：--我们会使用 14 盎司的手套。

No, I'm kidding.

不，我在开玩笑。

It wouldn't be physical.

这不会是身体上的。

It would be purely intellectual.

这将纯粹是智力上的。

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang: Yeah.

玛丽·海伦·伊莫迪诺-杨：是的。

Can we take it back to the brain for a moment, to the conversation that we were having earlier?

我们能暂时把它带回大脑，回到我们之前进行的对话吗？

So we were talking about that in our experiments.

所以我们在实验中讨论了这一点。

And now in whole bodies of neuroscientific knowledge, we know that there is this very interesting neurobiological sort of processing difference between emotions and the thoughts that are part of those emotions, that are the result of those emotions, that are also incipitating those emotions.

现在，在整个神经科学知识体系中，我们知道，情绪和属于这些情绪的思想之间存在着一种非常有趣的神经生物学处理差异，这些思想是这些情绪的一部分，是这些情绪的结果，也引发了这些情绪。

Like that whole process, when it pertains to the direct actions, observable characteristics, behaviors of another person or situation that you can actually directly, pretty much directly learn or infer, as compared to when you have to bring a whole lot of conceptual content knowledge to bear, experiential knowledge, simulation capacity to bear, to be able to fully appreciate the nature of a situation.

就像整个过程一样，当它涉及直接行动、可观察的特征、另一个人或情况的行为时，你实际上可以直接、几乎直接学习或推断，相比之下，当你必须携带大量概念性内容知识、经验知识、模拟能力时，才能充分理解情况的本质。

And we talked about how that second kind of processing that I called transcendent is, in essence, about distancing yourself from the immediate physical situation, the observable, perceivable situation in a direct sense, and instead constructing a narrative in your mind that's built from that.

我们讨论了我称之为超越的第二种处理本质上是如何使自己远离直接的物理情况，直接意义上的可观察、可感知的情况，而是在你的脑海中构建一个以此为基础的叙述。

But that then brings to bear all these other kinds of information that allow you to elaborate this into a narrative that takes on emotional meaning and psychological power.

但这会带来所有其他类型的信息，使您能够将其详细阐述为具有情感意义和心理力量的叙述。

As a narrative, it becomes part of identity, beliefs, all that kind of stuff.

作为一种叙事，它成为身份、信仰等所有东西的一部分。

And we talked about that kind of thinking being associated with the so-called default mode, which is deactivated systematically and decoupled from itself.

我们讨论了这种与所谓的默认模式相关的思维，默认模式被系统地停用并与其自身解耦。

The different regions aren't talking to each other, to each other.

不同的地区之间没有相互交谈。

When you are in the world, acting, doing a task, paying attention, inferring the direct things that you need to notice around you.

当你在这个世界上时，行动、执行任务、集中注意力、推断你需要注意的周围的直接事物。

You're in the middle of playing a soccer game, the ball's coming at your head.

你正在踢一场足球比赛，球正朝你的头顶飞来。

That's not a time to stop and muse about Title IX and girls access to sports, right?

现在不是停下来思考第九条和女孩参加体育运动的时候，对吗？

You're going to trip and fall, or you're going to miss your shot at the goal, or you're going to get hit with the ball.

你可能会绊倒并摔倒，或者你会射失球门，或者你会被球击中。

So we need to sort of manage that space in order to have these conversations.

因此，我们需要对这个空间进行某种管理才能进行这些对话。

And I think what's important here is to remember that the default mode network, that is the substrate that is playing out your own sense of self and inner consciousness and self awareness, and is also the basis on which we construct these broader inferential narratives that are the elaborative stuff of stories and beliefs, are fundamentally incompatible.

我认为这里重要的是要记住，默认模式网络是发挥你自己的自我意识、内在意识和自我意识的基础，也是我们构建这些更广泛的推理叙事的基础，这些推理叙事是故事和信仰的精心制作的东西，从根本上是不相容的。

The activation of those systems is fundamentally incompatible with needing to be vigilant into the immediate physical or social situation around you.

这些系统的激活从根本上与需要对周围的身体或社交情况保持警惕是不相容的。

So if you feel physically, emotionally, culturally, socially unsafe, and you feel that you need to watch your back, either literally or metaphorically, as you're thinking about things neurobiologically, that situation is unconducive.

因此，如果你在身体、情感、文化、社交上感到不安全，并且当你从神经生物学角度思考问题时，你觉得自己需要小心，无论是字面上还是隐喻上，这种情况都是不利的。

It is not conducive to being able to actually conjure an alternative perspective in which you construct a meaningful narrative with alternate ethical implications, with alternate prospective possible future outcomes, with alternate views of the historical precedent or context.

它不利于能够真正构想出另一种观点，在这种观点中，你可以构建一个有意义的叙述，具有不同的伦理含义，具​​有不同的未来可能的结果，具有对历史先例或背景的不同看法。

Being able to sort of mentally time travel into the space of those ideas is only really possible when people feel safe to think together.

只有当人们感到安全地一起思考时，才真正可能在精神上进行时间旅行到这些想法的空间。

Andrew Huberman: So it sounds like it's anti-creative.

Andrew Huberman：所以这听起来像是反创意的。

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang: Yes.

玛丽·海伦·伊莫迪诺-杨：是的。

Creativity is also associated with the activations of these networks.

创造力也与这些网络的激活有关。

Yeah, causally.

是的，因果关系。

Andrew Huberman: So, in some recent work, I had the good fortune of having dinner last year with somebody.

安德鲁·休伯曼：所以，在最近的一些工作中，我去年有幸与某人共进晚餐。

I won't reveal who it is, but he runs a major social media platform, and he told me that in Japan, it's common for people to have two or three, or even as many as seven different social media handles, and that they do this in order to embody different versions of themselves safely.

我不会透露他是谁，但他经营着一个主要的社交媒体平台，他告诉我，在日本，人们通常拥有两到三个，甚至多达七个不同的社交媒体账号，他们这样做是为了安全地体现不同版本的自己。

So these are not troll accounts.

所以这些不是巨魔帐户。

These are not the accounts, and by the way, I see you troll accounts, that say whatever, and then you go to their accounts at some private account where they hide.

这些不是帐户，顺便说一句，我看到你们是巨魔帐户，不管怎么说，然后您通过他们隐藏的某个私人帐户转到他们的帐户。

Rather, these are individuals who have multiple accounts.

相反，这些人拥有多个帐户。

In one account, they might be a bit aggressive, maybe even a bully online, dare I say?

在一个帐户中，他们可能有点咄咄逼人，甚至可能是网上恶霸，我敢说吗？

In another account, they might be very fawning and show up as the person that everyone knows them to be in the real world.

在另一个帐户中，他们可能非常阿谀奉承，表现得像现实世界中每个人都认识的那样。

In another account, they might be a university professor.

在另一个说法中，他们可能是一名大学教授。

In another, they're an athlete.

在另一个方面，他们是一名运动员。

And it's fabricated in the sense that the posts that they put up often don't accurately represent who they are in the real world, but it's accurate in the sense that it represents the different dimensions of their persona that are driving their real world decision making at some level

从某种意义上说，这是捏造的，因为他们发布的帖子通常不能准确地代表他们在现实世界中的身份，但从某种意义上说，它是准确的，因为它代表了他们角色的不同维度，这些维度在某种程度上推动了他们在现实世界中的决策

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang: It's kind of like pretend play for little kids.

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang：这有点像小孩子的假装游戏。

Andrew Huberman: It's pretend play, but it's not pretend because it's in cyberspace.

Andrew Huberman：这是假装游戏，但它不是假装，因为它是在网络空间中。

I'll just go back to Rick Rubin, who, in addition to being this incredible music producer, is an enormous fan of professional wrestling for many years.

我只想回到里克·鲁宾（Rick Rubin），他除了是一位令人难以置信的音乐制作人之外，多年来还是职业摔跤的忠实粉丝。

And I asked, you know, from a perplexed sense, like, why professional wrestling, is it the athleticism?

我从一种困惑的感觉中问，为什么是职业摔跤，是运动能力吗？

And he says, it's the only thing that's real, because everyone agrees it's not real.

他说，这是唯一真实的事情，因为每个人都同意它不是真实的。

And so these are characters, right?

所以这些都是角色，对吧？

So you're agreeing for it to not be real, and yet it allows these characters to fully embody these different personas.

所以你同意它不是真实的，但它允许这些角色充分体现这些不同的角色。

I had the experience years ago.

我几年前就有过这样的经历。

I was at Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory, a summer camp for scientists where I attended and taught.

我当时在冷泉港实验室，这是一个科学家夏令营，我在那里参加并任教。

And I was in a cab driving out to Cold Spring Harbor from the train station, Syosset, and I got into a discussion with a cab driver, and he said, okay, you're from California.

我当时坐在一辆出租车里，从赛奥塞特火车站开往冷泉港，我和一名出租车司机进行了讨论，他说，好吧，你来自加利福尼亚州。

He said, with a New York accent, which I won't try and imitate.

他带着纽约口音说道，我不会尝试模仿。

He said, you're from California, and he said, you know, your governor, who at the time was Schwarzenegger, he said, he's great.

他说，你来自加利福尼亚州，他说，你知道，你的州长，当时是施瓦辛格，他说，他很棒。

And I said, tell me more.

我说，告诉我更多。

I happen to like Schwarzenegger for a number of reasons.

我碰巧喜欢施瓦辛格有很多原因。

He actually signed my PhD because he was governor and I went to a UC.

他实际上签署了我的博士学位，因为他是州长，而我去了加州大学。

And he said, well, because if terrorists show up in California, he's going to go out there with a machine gun and take them down.

他说，好吧，因为如果恐怖分子出现在加利福尼亚州，他会拿着机关枪去那里把他们打倒。

So in his adult mind, he's the Terminator.

所以在他成年人的心目中，他就是终结者。

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang: Andrew Huberman: He's the Terminator.

玛丽·海伦·伊莫迪诺-杨：安德鲁·胡伯曼：他是终结者。

And I realized in that moment, this was a smart guy, this cab driver was a smart guy, that it wasn't a lack of narrative distancing.

在那一刻我意识到，这是一个聪明人，这个出租车司机是一个聪明人，这并不是缺乏叙事距离。

He had conflated the actor with the roles he played.

他将演员与他所扮演的角色混为一谈。

And I realized in that moment that this was not a reflection of him being unintelligent.

在那一刻我意识到这并不是他不聪明的体现。

It was a reflection of the fact that the brain often collapses identities absolutely of others and makes these, I think it's just an efficient, it's an efficient way to parse the world.

这反映了这样一个事实，即大脑经常绝对地瓦解他人的身份并做出这些，我认为这只是一种有效的、有效的解析世界的方式。

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang: Yeah, we decide, and then that's that kind of this person.

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang：是的，我们决定，然后就是这样的人。

And we put them over there on a shelf.

我们把它们放在架子上。

Andrew Huberman: Right.

安德鲁·休伯曼：对。

So to return to the discussion that we're having, I think that the ability to embody different aspects of self, but also the ability to transiently embody the personas of other people and to do that in a way that allows for really thorough exploration of idea space, I feel like, can only be a good thing, provided it doesn't get physically violent or something.

因此，回到我们正在进行的讨论，我认为，体现自我不同方面的能力，以及短暂体现他人角色的能力，并以一种允许真正彻底探索思想空间的方式做到这一点，我觉得，只能是一件好事，只要它不会变得暴力或其他什么。

But that, to me, seems like the exact opposite of what's happening now, which is that people are siloing off into their camps where specific language and specific ideas are accepted and others are not.

但对我来说，这似乎与现在正在发生的事情完全相反，即人们正在孤立地进入自己的阵营，在这些阵营中，特定的语言和特定的想法被接受，而其他的则不被接受。

I mean, it's so interesting and perplexing and disturbing to me that the way that certain things that have nothing to do with politics get lumped with one group or the other.

我的意思是，某些与政治无关的事情被归为一个群体或另一个群体，这对我来说是如此有趣、令人困惑和不安。

It's so crazy to me on the one hand, and yet I think what you're describing seems to me the route out of all of this.

一方面，这对我来说太疯狂了，但我认为你所描述的对我来说似乎是摆脱这一切的途径。

I really mean that I feel like the education system, starting young and getting people emotionally engaged, learning what they like, what they don't like, but then also teaching them about their emotional systems and how it helps them parse the world, is really the solution.

我真正的意思是，我觉得教育系统确实是解决方案，从年轻开始，让人们投入情感，了解他们喜欢什么，不喜欢什么，然后教他们了解他们的情感系统以及它如何帮助他们解析世界。

So that when we're upset, we can realize, like, yeah, I'm upset.

这样，当我们心烦意乱时，我们就能意识到，是的，我很心烦意乱。

It makes sense why I'm upset.

我为什么不高兴是有道理的。

But let me explore it from the other side.

但让我从另一面探讨一下。

It also makes sense why they're upset.

他们感到不安的原因也是有道理的。

And that seems to be what humans have done somewhat throughout history, never perfectly well, but it seems like it ought to be possible.

这似乎是人类在历史上做过的事情，虽然从来都不是完美的，但看起来应该是可能的。

I mean, the forebrain is there for a reason.

我的意思是，前脑的存在是有原因的。

So could you, in wanting to go back to a little bit of the biology and the research, what have you seen in terms of cross-cultural consistency about the role of emotions in our ability to parse and learn?

那么，您想回顾一下生物学和研究，您认为情绪在我们的解析和学习能力中的作用在跨文化一致性方面有何体现？

Because obviously we're not going to solve these problems today.

因为显然我们今天不会解决这些问题。

But although I think you've shined light on some potential solutions, what do we know for sure about human beings and their capacity to do what you're describing, to really learn differently?

但是，尽管我认为你已经阐明了一些潜在的解决方案，但我们对人类以及他们做你所描述的事情、真正以不同方式学习的能力了解多少？

It worked in the classroom where you were teaching.

它在您教学的教室中发挥了作用。

But how could each and every one of us do this?

但我们每个人怎样才能做到这一点呢？

I mean, how would we approach this?

我的意思是，我们将如何处理这个问题？

I guess I want to take this to the practical.

我想我想把它付诸实践。

What can we do when we read a newspaper article?

当我们读报纸文章时，我们能做什么？

What can we do when we're on social media?

当我们使用社交媒体时，我们能做什么？

What can we do when our kid is refusing to do something because they simply don't like it or they don't like the teacher?

当我们的孩子因为不喜欢或不喜欢老师而拒绝做某事时，我们该怎么办？

Are there paths through that that you've identified or that you can sense work?

是否存在您已经确定的或您可以感觉到工作的路径？

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang: I can give funny examples of my own kids when they didn't like things at school.

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang：我可以举一些我自己的孩子不喜欢学校里的事情的有趣例子。

This isn't licensed--

这没有获得许可——

Andrew Huberman: --What tools do you use?--

Andrew Huberman：--你使用什么工具？--

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang: Yeah.

玛丽·海伦·伊莫迪诺-杨：是的。

My son, when he was in third grade, he was very upset about the behavior chart that his teacher had at school.

我的儿子上三年级时，他对老师在学校的行为表感到非常不安。

So they had a behavior chart at the back of the room that, the principal didn't agree with this, but that teacher was there for a year.

所以他们在房间后面有一个行为图表，校长不同意这一点，但那位老师在那里呆了一年。

So there was this behavior chart, and you have green, you start on green with your little clip, and then there's yellow, and then there's red, which is like, call your parents, which I never understood why they don't put call your parents on the green, but anyway, so you start on the green, and then you get down to the yellow, and they get down to red.

所以有这个行为图表，你有绿色，你用你的小夹子从绿色开始，然后是黄色，然后是红色，就像打电话给你的父母，我一直不明白为什么他们不把打电话给你的父母放在绿色上，但无论如何，所以你从绿色开始，然后你下降到黄色，然后他们下降到红色。

And Ted's little friend is always getting on the red by 9:00 a.m.

特德的小朋友总是在上午 9:00 之前就出现红灯。

It's like, could we just get it over with?

就像，我们可以结束它吗？

And he tried to talk with his teacher about why this behavior chart made him so uncomfortable.

他试图与老师讨论为什么这个行为图让他如此不舒服。

She could not understand his perspective because she kept saying, but you're always on green.

她无法理解他的观点，因为她一直说，但你总是绿色的。

You're always doing what you're supposed to be doing, and you're respectful and you're well behaved, so why is it a problem?

你一直在做你应该做的事情，而且你很尊重人，你表现得很好，那为什么会出现问题呢？

And what he was trying to say was that somehow it just made him uncomfortable to have that there.

他想说的是，不知何故，把它放在那里只是让他感到不舒服。

So he was constantly bothering me with this.

所以他经常用这个来烦我。

I finally told him, I was trying to work one day and he was home from school because I would let him work from home some days because we needed to, to kind of buffer a little bit.

我最后告诉他，有一天我想工作，而他放学回家，因为我会让他在家工作几天，因为我们需要一点缓冲。

And he'd bring all his work home, and he'd do it himself.

他会把所有的工作带回家，自己做。

I'd be working.

我会工作。

He'd be working, right?

他会工作，对吗？

It's fine, mind you, he had all kinds of projects going on.

没关系，请注意，他有各种各样的项目正在进行。

And this is a kid who, just a little side story, this is a kid who went to first grade.

这是一个孩子，只是一个小故事，这是一个上一年级的孩子。

And about two weeks into first grade, good first grade class, he was crying on a Sunday night to me, like, I don't want to go to school.

大约进入一年级两周后，一年级很好的班级，他在周日晚上对我哭，就像，我不想去上学。

I don't want to go to school.

我不想去上学。

I'm like, well, what's wrong at school?

我就想，学校里有什么问题吗？

I'm thinking he's getting bullied.

我觉得他被欺负了

Something's wrong.

出了点问题。

He's like, he finally looks at me and he goes, I have so much work to do.

他就像，他终于看着我然后走了，我有很多工作要做。

How do you expect me to get my work done if I'm sitting in school all day?

如果我整天坐在学校里，你希望我如何完成工作？

Andrew Huberman: Okay, I can relate.

Andrew Huberman：好的，我能理解。

I can relate.

我能体会到。

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang: Can you relate?

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang：你能联系一下吗？

Because you're actually a motivated person.

因为你其实是一个有上进心的人。

We take kids' motivations and the things they're interested in, and we sideline them and try to structure them into something.

我们抓住孩子的动机和他们感兴趣的事物，然后将它们放在一边，并尝试将它们组织成某种东西。

So back to--

那么回到——

Andrew Huberman: --There are Legos to build.--

安德鲁·胡伯曼：——有乐高积木可以拼搭。——

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang: Yeah.

玛丽·海伦·伊莫迪诺-杨：是的。

He was way into building armor at that time.

那时他正热衷于制造盔甲。

I know we're probably terrible parents, but we gave him some safety glasses, and we taught him how to use it, and we explained how metal is sharp.

我知道我们可能是糟糕的父母，但我们给了他一些安全眼镜，我们教他如何使用它，我们解释了金属是如何锋利的。

And we gave him some sheet metal--

我们给了他一些金属板——

Andrew Huberman: --That is super cool.--

安德鲁·休伯曼：——那太酷了。——

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang: --and some tin snips, and he made a whole suit of armor in the backyard in second grade.

玛丽·海伦·伊莫迪诺-杨：——还有一些锡剪，他二年级时在后院制作了一整套盔甲。

Anyway, it took him months and months.

不管怎样，他花了好几个月的时间。

I mean, chain mail, the whole bit.

我的意思是，连锁邮件，全部。

He was super into it.

他非常喜欢它。

Andrew Huberman: Amazing.

安德鲁·休伯曼：太棒了。

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang: Anyway, and he made airplanes.

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang：无论如何，他制造了飞机。

He did all kinds of things.

他做了各种各样的事情。

But, so here's this kid, and he's bugging me about his teacher and this behavior chart.

但是，这就是这个孩子，他正在向我骚扰他的老师和这个行为图表。

And I said, Ted, go write a letter to your teacher.

我说，特德，去给你的老师写一封信。

If it bothers you that much, you go write a letter about why it bothers you.

如果它让你很烦恼，你可以写一封信说明它为什么让你烦恼。

Right?

正确的？

Because in doing so, he's, first of all, helping to solve the problem.

因为这样做，他首先是在帮助解决问题。

Secondly, he was formulating his understanding of what this behavior chart is and why specifically it bothers him.

其次，他正在阐述自己对这个行为图是什么以及为什么它特别困扰他的理解。

And in so doing, it helps him not be so bothered by it, right?

这样做可以帮助他不那么烦恼，对吧？

So that's an example of something you could do.

这就是您可以做的事情的一个例子。

So he wrote this letter to his teacher, which ended up being published in the National Academy of Science, Engineering and Math's book, How People Learn, Volume Two, because I was on the committee of people that wrote it, and we needed an example of kids making sense out of motivational things and actually took his name and the teacher's name off and put the letter in the book.

所以他给他的老师写了这封信，这封信最终发表在美国国家科学、工程和数学学院的书《人们如何学习》第二卷中，因为我是写这封信的委员会成员之一，我们需要一个孩子们从激励性事物中理解的例子，实际上他把他的名字和老师的名字都去掉了，然后把这封信放在了书中。

It basically is a little kid saying, listen, teacher, when you put up this behavior chart, he called it a bad behavior chart, which it wasn't.

基本上就是一个小孩子说，听着，老师，当你张贴这个行为图表时，他称其为不良行为图表，但事实并非如此。

It was just a behavior chart, but he interprets it as a bad behavior chart.

这只是一个行为图表，但他将其解释为不良行为图表。

When you put that up, it's as if you're daring me to do something bad.

当你把这个提出来的时候，就好像你在挑衅我做坏事一样。

He doesn't say it like this.

他不是这样说的。

He says, you're basically making me uncomfortable because you are laying out a perspective on me, a possibility space for me that you're now bringing into the conversation that I could be like that.

他说，你基本上让我感到不舒服，因为你对我提出了一种观点，为我提供了一个可能性空间，你现在将其带入对话中，让我知道我可能会成为那样的人。

And let's see if you're going to be, oh, not today.

让我们看看你是否会，哦，今天不会。

We're still on green.

我们仍然处于绿色状态。

And so where does this go?

那么这会去哪里呢？

It goes back to the idea that kids are, and all of us are, interpreting the interactions and the structures around us, not only for what they are, but for what they represent as somebody else's interpretation of what we are or are not capable of.

这可以追溯到这样一个想法：孩子们，我们所有人，都在解释我们周围的互动和结构，不仅是因为他们是什么，而且是因为他们代表了别人对我们能做什么或不能做什么的解释。

And he saw that behavior chart as a marker that his teacher assumed that all kids in that class are capable of being badly behaved and that their main aim of being in school is to be well behaved.

他认为该行为图表标志着他的老师认为该班的所有孩子都有可能表现不良，而他们在学校的主要目标是表现良好。

And so he writes all about saying, Dear Teacher, every day I come to school every single day, and every single day is new.

所以他写的都是这样的：亲爱的老师，我每天都来学校，每一天都是新的。

That's what he says.

他就是这么说的。

And I could learn something new, except then I see...

我可以学到一些新东西，但我发现......

the bad behavior chart.

不良行为图表。

He's saying, school is supposed to be about learning and us engaging, and you're making it about something so low level and basic as are you going to behave yourself today, we are insulting him by the way we frame the context.

他说，学校应该是关于学习和我们参与的，而你却把它搞得如此低级和基本，就像你今天要表现的那样，我们通过我们构建背景的方式侮辱了他。

So take it back to the bigger issues of civic discourse and all these things.

因此，回到公民话语和所有这些事情的更大问题上。

I think so much of the way that we're organizing our lives, our social relationships, our community, our civic structures right now is mirroring that teacher's behavior chart, right?

我认为我们现在组织生活、社会关系、社区、公民结构的方式很大程度上都反映了老师的行为图表，对吗？

Andrew Huberman: Did she take the chart down?

安德鲁·休伯曼：她把图表拿下来了吗？

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang: No, I don't think so.

玛丽·海伦·伊莫迪诺-杨：不，我不这么认为。

Andrew Huberman: And I asked because I'm not sure that it matters.

Andrew Huberman：我问这个问题是因为我不确定这是否重要。

I think what probably matters is that he had the chance to voice, he voiced his understanding.

我认为重要的是他有机会表达意见，他表达了他的理解。

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang: His understanding of the chart.

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang：他对图表的理解。

Yeah, that's right.

是的，没错。

And now anybody can read his understanding of the chart because it's published in the most widely read textbook on learning and motivation.

现在任何人都可以阅读他对图表的理解，因为它发表在阅读最广泛的学习和动机教科书中。

There's a couple of points.

有几点。

First is that we are structuring, the way we structure our environment, can unwittingly impose our mental models of other people's possibility spaces onto them.

首先，我们构建环境的方式可能会不知不觉地将我们对其他人可能性空间的心理模型强加给他们。

And people find that inherently abhorrent, right?

人们觉得这本质上是令人厌恶的，对吧？

So think about how we're doing that in many contexts, not simply in schools.

因此，请考虑一下我们在许多情况下（而不仅仅是在学校）如何做到这一点。

And then the second thing is, from the kids perspective, deconstructing exactly why, and something bothers you by understanding how it is that you are interpreting that thing then opens you up to be able to manage those spaces in a new way and to engage in them in a new way.

然后第二件事是，从孩子的角度来看，解构到底为什么，以及一些困扰你的事情，通过理解你如何解释那件事，然后让你能够以新的方式管理这些空间并以新的方式参与其中。

So if we take the conversation back to the idea of civic discourse, of civic reasoning, of engaging with any idea, there are ideas that are deeply problematic.

因此，如果我们把话题带回公民话语、公民推理、参与任何想法的想法，就会发现有些想法存在严重问题。

There are ideas that are deeply hurtful, that have long histories of trauma associated with them, of long histories of power dynamics and oppression associated with them.

有些想法是非常伤人的，它们有着悠久的创伤历史，有着悠久的权力动态和压迫历史。

The way in which I think we deconstruct those ideas is going to be critical to how those ideas live on implicitly in our social relationships and our society.

我认为我们解构这些想法的方式对于这些想法如何在我们的社会关系和社会中隐含地存在至关重要。

If we cancel them, if we negate them and pretend they don't exist, all we're doing is burying them in a place where they can't be deconstructed.

如果我们取消它们，如果我们否定它们并假装它们不存在，那么我们所做的就是将它们埋在一个无法被解构的地方。

And only by actually taking them apart and appreciating the pain, the relationship structures, the limitations, the resource allocations, the inequities that are implicit in those concepts.

只有真正将它们拆开并理解这些概念中隐含的痛苦、关系结构、局限性、资源分配和不平等。

Only by deconstructing and deeply understanding those can we rebuild them in a different way.

只有解构并深入理解它们，我们才能以不同的方式重建它们。

So it's very difficult, because on the one hand, we have a space created for ourselves right now in society that is deeply unsafe for many people.

所以这非常困难，因为一方面，我们现在在社会中为自己创造了一个对许多人来说非常不安全的空间。

And when you are in an unsafe space, you are not in a space that is conducive to constructing and deconstructing meaning using those default mode systems and other systems, just to be crass about the brain, and kind of oversimplify it, that are the substrate of autobiographical self, of possibility spaces of ethics, of deep moral and ethical emotions.

当你处于一个不安全的空间时，你并不处于一个有利于使用那些默认模式系统和其他系统来构建和解构意义的空间，只是对大脑感到粗鲁，并且有点过于简单化，这是自传自我、伦理的可能性空间、深刻的道德和伦理情感的基础。

So, on the one hand, we have a space that is deeply unsafe for individuals to think together, and genuinely so, there are real implications for people to reveal certain kinds of identities, to engage with certain kinds of ideas in culturally formulated spaces, that we've constructed together.

因此，一方面，我们拥有一个对于个人共同思考来说非常不安全的空间，而且确实如此，对于人们揭示某些类型的身份，在我们共同构建的文化制定的空间中参与某些类型的想法具有真正的影响。

And the irony is that we can only fix that and create a different way of interacting with one another by actually boldly going in there together.

讽刺的是，我们只能解决这个问题，并通过实际大胆地一起创造一种不同的互动方式。

So it's a very nuanced line where we need to develop skills.

因此，这是一个非常微妙的领域，我们需要培养技能。

And this is where I think, and many people think now, that schools should be focused across disciplinary domains, whether it's math, science, social studies, history, the arts.

这就是我认为，现在很多人认为，学校应该关注跨学科领域，无论是数学、科学、社会研究、历史、艺术。

Sports should be focused on helping young people and teachers develop capacities and dispositions for deconstructing and constructing, again, safe cultural spaces, to think together about interpretations, about narratives, about stories, about assumptions, about ideas.

体育运动应该侧重于帮助年轻人和教师培养解构和构建安全文化空间的能力和倾向，共同思考解释、叙述、故事、假设和想法。

Because as we engage in those thoughts together, we call that civic discourse, right?

因为当我们一起思考这些想法时，我们称之为公民话语，对吧？

We learn kind of rules for not triggering and sensibilities, for not endangering another person's ability to engage on equal footing with us.

我们学习一些不触发和敏感的规则，不危及他人与我们平等交往的能力。

Because if we trigger those unsafe, dangerous places for people, they can't neurobiologically, then engage with us deeply around sharing their perspective and deconstructing ours together.

因为如果我们为人们触发那些不安全、危险的地方，他们就无法从神经生物学角度与我们深入交流，分享他们的观点并一起解构我们的观点。

To build something where we have a shared understanding in the middle, we have to trust one another.

为了建立一个我们在中间有共同理解的东西，我们必须相互信任。

And trusting one another really means we have to have a space established in which we can feel safe to deconstruct our own beliefs and to allow others to do the same, and to assure them that we can engage with those beliefs no matter what they are, and then actually exteriorize them and evaluate them together and think about them around core values we probably both hold like well being, like sustainability of society and of cultures and of groups.

彼此信任实际上意味着我们必须建立一个空间，在这个空间中我们可以安全地解构自己的信仰，并允许其他人也这样做，并向他们保证我们可以参与这些信仰，无论它们是什么，然后实际上将它们具体化并一起评估它们，并围绕我们可能都持有的核心价值观思考它们，比如幸福，比如社会、文化和群体的可持续性。

These things are core.

这些东西都是核心的。

Everyone wants to be well, everyone wants to have a sustainable life and a life future and a cultural set of values.

每个人都希望身体健康，每个人都希望拥有可持续的生活、生活的未来和文化价值观。

And so when we all appreciate that we're bringing those things to the table, but then are systematic about constructing a space for civic discourse in which we are supporting one another in deconstructing our own beliefs rather than each other's beliefs, then we are at a space where we can start to construct some kind of understanding, some kind of nuanced, more adaptive, more pro social, and the true sense way of engaging with one another, not necessarily a way of agreeing with one another, but a way of engaging and constructing and deconstructing meaning together, so that we can be adapted, so that we can build a society where everyone can flourish, so that we can build a society where everyone can belong and can actually have the resources they need.

因此，当我们都意识到我们正在把这些事情摆到桌面上，然后系统地构建一个公民话语空间，在这个空间中我们互相支持解构我们自己的信仰而不是彼此的信仰时，那么我们就处于一个可以开始构建某种理解的空间，某种理解，某种细致入微的，更具适应性的，更亲社会的，以及真正意义上的彼此交往的方式，不一定是一种彼此同意的方式，而是一种参与和参与的方式。一起建构和解构意义，这样我们才能适应，这样我们才能建立一个人人都能繁荣的社会，这样我们才能建立一个人人都能有归属感、都能真正拥有他们所需要的资源的社会。

Andrew Huberman: I would argue as long as free speech is not possible for everybody, that nobody's.--

安德鲁·休伯曼：我认为，只要言论自由对每个人来说都是不可能的，那么没有人是不可能的。--

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang: --Yes, that's right.--

玛丽·海伦·伊莫迪诺-杨：——是的，没错。--

Andrew Huberman: --That nobody's safe.

安德鲁·休伯曼：——没有人是安全的。

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang: Nobody's safe.

玛丽·海伦·伊莫迪诺-杨：没有人是安全的。

Andrew Huberman: And that there's an illusion of safety around the idea that people who have voice are going to get what they want simply because they are the ones who are allowed to talk and other people aren't.

安德鲁·休伯曼：人们有一种安全的错觉，认为拥有发言权的人会得到他们想要的东西，仅仅因为他们是被允许说话的人，而其他人则不允许。

I think you said it perfectly when you said that anytime ideas get buried, there's no way they can be solved.

我认为你说得很清楚，只要你的想法被埋没，就无法解决。

Yeah, we know this from the scientific literature.

是的，我们从科学文献中知道这一点。

For instance, there are results within social science and biological science that are deeply troubling.

例如，社会科学和生物科学领域的一些结果令人深感不安。

I can think of experiments that were done in the realm of neurosurgery on humans in the 1960s.

我可以想起 20 世纪 60 年代在神经外科领域对人类进行的实验。

People stimulating different brain areas and seeing rage or seeing very politically controversial ideas emerge from the person's mouth in real time as a function of stimulating that brain area.

人们刺激不同的大脑区域，并看到愤怒或看到非常有政治争议的想法从人的嘴里实时出现，作为刺激该大脑区域的功能。

And then you say, well, did they really believe that, and they just never were saying it?

然后你说，好吧，他们真的相信这一点，只是他们从来没有说过吗？

And the person doesn't even recall that happening during the surgery.

这个人甚至不记得手术期间发生的事情。

This idea that Jung had that we have all things inside of us, I think, can be seen as a very dangerous notion and territory, that we have all these shadows.

我认为，荣格认为我们内心拥有一切的想法可以被视为一个非常危险的观念和领域，我们拥有所有这些阴影。

But I'm also an optimist, and I feel that the optimistic view of it is that by knowing that we have all things inside of us, potentially, and by embracing that fact, that we can manage that, to steal what you just said, we can manage that.

但我也是一个乐观主义者，我觉得乐观的观点是，通过知道我们体内潜在的一切，并接受这一事实，我们可以做到这一点，窃取你刚才所说的，我们可以做到这一点。

And that we can function so much better when we see something in the world that we think, that's not me.

当我们看到世界上一些我们认为不是我的东西时，我们就能更好地发挥作用。

I'm not that.

我不是那样的人

And I hate that if we understand that that also lives inside of us, but that we just don't realize it.

我讨厌如果我们明白它也存在于我们内心，但我们只是没有意识到它。

And I realize some people will hear this and they'll go, that's not true.

我意识到有些人会听到这个然后他们就会离开，但这不是真的。

I have my stances, and I disagree with other things.

我有我的立场，我不同意其他事情。

I would say absolutely, yes.

我绝对会说，是的。

But the difference between one person's stance and another person's stance could be purely developmental wiring.

但一个人的立场与另一个人的立场之间的差异可能纯粹是发展线路。

It could be the difference of having read different childhood books and oriented towards one book versus another.

这可能是童年读过不同书籍以及对一本书和另一本书的倾向不同。

I think that we are very similar at the level of core wiring and core algorithms that we run.

我认为我们在运行的核心布线和核心算法层面非常相似。

But somehow these days, we have the perception that we've diverged so much.

但不知何故，现在我们感觉我们的分歧如此之大。

I think the only thing that's really missing is what you're describing is a place where any and all ideas can be explored freely, not to establish consensus.

我认为唯一真正缺少的是你所描述的是一个可以自由探索任何和所有想法的地方，而不是建立共识。

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang: And validity of certain kinds of ideas, but to actually exteriorize them and deconstruct them for what they actually are.

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang：某些想法的有效性，但要真正将它们外化并解构它们的实际面目。

Andrew Huberman: Absolutely.

安德鲁·休伯曼：当然。

Thank you for working through that space, because it's a tricky one.

感谢您解决这个问题，因为这是一个棘手的问题。

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang: I realize it's very fraught.

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang：我意识到这非常令人担忧。

Andrew Huberman: It's very fraught, but so very important.

Andrew Huberman：这非常令人担忧，但非常重要。

I have a question that's very basic, but I've never gotten a good answer on.

我有一个非常基本的问题，但我从未得到很好的答案。

I was raised thinking that mirror neurons were a real thing, that there are these neurons that exist in the brains of us and other old world primates like macaque monkeys, but especially in humans, the so called mirror neurons that are activated when we see somebody experience something, and it evokes a sort of empathic understanding in us.

我从小就认为镜像神经元是真实存在的，这些神经元存在于我们和其他旧世界灵长类动物（如猕猴）的大脑中，但尤其是在人类中，当我们看到某人经历某些事情时，所谓的镜像神经元就会被激活，它会唤起我们的一种共情理解。

I've also seen some reviews written recently in some popular press saying that mirror neurons are perhaps not playing the critical role that we thought they were.

我还看到一些流行媒体最近写的一些评论说镜像神经元可能没有发挥我们认为的关键作用。

What's the story on mirror neurons?

关于镜像神经元有什么故事？

And we're not going after anybody's work in particular.

我们不会特别追求任何人的工作。

I just want to know whether or not there's real validity to this notion of mirror neurons.

我只是想知道镜像神经元的概念是否真正有效。

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang: I'm not an expert on it, but I can tell you what I know about it.

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang：我不是这方面的专家，但我可以告诉你我所知道的。

And the way that I think about it, I think it's pretty clear now that there are no such things as mirror neurons, like some special kind of cell type that's in the brain.

从我的角度来看，我认为现在很清楚，不存在镜像神经元之类的东西，就像大脑中某种特殊的细胞类型一样。

They have not been found.

他们还没有被发现。

They were predicted, but they were not found.

他们被预言了，但没有被发现。

But something else was also predicted back in the late 1980s by Antonio Damasio, where he talked about the brain being organized in terms of what he called convergent and divergent zones.

但早在 20 世纪 80 年代末，安东尼奥·达马西奥 (Antonio Damasio) 也做出了其他预测，他谈到大脑是按照他所谓的聚合区和发散区来组织的。

So he talked about the brain being organized as networks converging and then diverging again back out.

因此，他谈到大脑的组织方式是网络聚合，然后再次分叉。

So you have places where processing is kind of coming together, and then what happens in there then determines how things get spread back out.

因此，有些地方的处理是聚集在一起的，然后那里发生的事情决定了事情如何传播出去。

And you've got these sort of loops happening in the brain.

大脑中就会发生这种循环。

And his thinking on that was very much commensurate with others thinking about the notion of goal directed action and perception.

他对此的思考与其他人对目标导向行动和感知概念的思考非常一致。

So if you think back to developmental scholars who knew nothing about the brain, very much like Jean Piaget, back in the early 20th century, where he was observing young children and noticing that they were interacting with the world, and they expected certain things, and he thought imposing theories or schemas onto the world and then accommodating was the word he used the world with their actions when it didn't act the way they expected, and then assimilating that back, right, to change what they expected next time.

所以，如果你回想一下那些对大脑一无所知的发展学者，就像让·皮亚杰（Jean Piaget）一样，早在 20 世纪初，他观察年幼的孩子，注意到他们正在与世界互动，他们期望某些事情，他认为将理论或模式强加给世界，然后适应这个词，当世界没有按照他们期望的方式运行时，他用这个词来适应他们的行为，然后将其同化回来，对吧，改变他们接下来的期望时间。

So that he had this model that he built from systematically observing children, three in particular, where what he realized is that kids are not just flailing around, sort of discovering things haphazardly.

因此，他通过系统地观察孩子（尤其是三个孩子）建立了这个模型，他意识到孩子们不仅仅是到处乱晃，而是随意地发现事物。

They're imposing a certain logic onto the world, and then they're systematically testing that logic.

他们将某种逻辑强加给世界，然后系统地测试该逻辑。

So they're hypotheses, basically.

所以基本上它们都是假设。

They're expecting things, and then when the world does what they want, that reinforces, and when it does something different, that's surprising.

他们期待着一些事情，然后当世界按照他们的意愿行事时，他们就会强化这种想法，而当世界做出不同的事情时，他们就会感到惊讶。

And then they have to accommodate and make sense, and then they have to expect differently in the future.

然后他们必须适应并有意义，然后他们必须对未来有不同的期望。

So what does this have to do with mirror neurons?

那么这与镜像神经元有什么关系呢？

I think when you bring these different ideas together, the psychological, observational ideas and then the neurobiological ideas, what we basically have, and I wrote about this a little bit in, I think, 2008, I have a paper called something like The Smoke around Mirror Neurons, and I forget the second half of the title, but it has the word goals and directed actions and things.

我认为当你把这些不同的想法结合在一起时，心理学、观察性的想法，然后是神经生物学的想法，我们基本上拥有什么，我想，2008年，我写了一点关于这个的文章，我有一篇名为“镜像神经元周围的烟雾”的论文，我忘记了标题的后半部分，但它有“目标”和“定向行动”等词。

The idea, I think, it's not that there are special neurons that are firing when we see another person do the thing, right.

我认为，这个想法并不是说当我们看到另一个人做某件事时，有特殊的神经元会放电，对吧。

But that it goes back to the notion of us imposing our expectations onto the world.

但这又回到了我们将我们的期望强加给世界的观念。

You have to share and understand intuitively the goal of the other one's action in order to activate these mirror regions.

你必须分享并直观地理解对方行动的目标，才能激活这些镜像区域。

And what are those mirror regions?

那些镜像区域是什么？

They are basically regions that are deeply interconnected with each other.

它们基本上是彼此紧密相连的区域。

They're thoroughly interconnected with each other in terms of white matter fiber tracks.

它们在白质纤维轨道上彼此完全互连。

And they are regions involved in action planning goal oriented actions, and perceiving the outcomes of those actions.

它们是参与行动规划目标导向行动并感知这些行动结果的区域。

So it's a kind of a loop between acting and perceiving and acting and perceiving.

所以这是一种行动与感知、行动与感知之间的循环。

And I argued at the time that goals are emergent, like high level goals are emergent from the dynamic feedback loops of acting and perceiving.

我当时认为目标是自然产生的，就像高层次目标是从行动和感知的动态反馈循环中产生的一样。

So I was really taking a very Piagetian view, but imposing that on the neuroscience.

所以我确实采取了非常皮亚杰式的观点，但将其强加于神经科学。

So I think you take what I'm saying together with, like, a Piagetian constructivist view.

所以我认为你将我所说的与皮亚杰建构主义的观点结合起来。

There are many other constructivist neuroscientists, constructivist psychologists also, and then also the neural data.

还有许多其他建构主义神经科学家、建构主义心理学家，还有神经数据。

What we see is that we don't have these special neurons built into our head.

我们看到的是，我们的大脑中并没有内置这些​​特殊的神经元。

What we have is a natural proclivity, and I don't know where that comes from, but we have a natural proclivity to try to appreciate another person's actions, feelings, experiences, by leveraging our own similar actions, feelings, experiences.

我们拥有的是一种自然倾向，我不知道它从何而来，但我们有一种自然倾向，即通过利用我们自己相似的行为、感受和经历来尝试欣赏他人的行为、感受和经历。

And so when we can share goals or experiences, that becomes more facile.

因此，当我们可以分享目标或经验时，事情就会变得更加容易。

That's been shown over and over in these mirror type papers, and when you distance yourself from those goals and actions or don't have an intuitive sense of them, then you don't get these mirroring activations.

这在这些镜像类型的论文中已经被一遍又一遍地展示，当你远离这些目标和行动或者对它们没有直观的感觉时，你就不会得到这些镜像激活。

You don't get these kind of ramped up sharing of goals or of experience.

你不会得到这种目标或经验的加速分享。

So I think it really comes back to the way the nervous system is wired to be inherently social.

所以我认为这实际上又回到了神经系统天生具有社交性的方式。

We are cultural learners.

我们是文化学习者。

We are situated in social spaces from the moment we're conceived and certainly from the moment we're born.

从我们受孕的那一刻起，当然从我们出生的那一刻起，我们就处于社会空间中。

And that social space, observing others, interacting with others, co-regulating each other's physiology, each other's attention, each other's emotion.

而那个社交空间，观察他人，与他人互动，共同调节彼此的生理、彼此的注意力、彼此的情绪。

As we do those things, we accommodate to each other, and we wire ourselves to expect certain kinds of feelings and then to recognize those same things in other people.

当我们做这些事情时，我们互相适应，我们让自己期待某些感受，然后认识到其他人也有同样的感受。

And so as we share constructed experience together, we start to appreciate the sameness.

因此，当我们一起分享构建的经验时，我们开始欣赏相同之处。

The parallels between other people's and our own emotions, thoughts, goals, and we can also dehumanize them, make the other person not share our thoughts, emotions, goals.

他人与我们自己的情感、想法、目标之间的相似之处，我们也可以将其非人化，使他人不分享我们的想法、情感、目标。

And then we are capable of all kinds of horrible things we've talked about before, right, where you've actually distanced yourself.

然后我们就有能力做出我们之前讨论过的各种可怕的事情，对吧，你实际上已经疏远了自己。

So what's the scope on mirror neurons?

那么镜像神经元的范围有多大呢？

I don't think mirror neurons exist.

我不认为镜像神经元存在。

I think that's the consensus.

我认为这是共识。

But our propensity to engage with other people by simulating on the substrate of our own self and then inferring the goals and the feelings and the outcomes and the experiences of those experiences that we've simulated, that's what is very essential to being a human.

但是，我们倾向于通过模拟我们自己的基础来与他人互动，然后推断我们模拟的目标、感受、结果和经历，这对于成为一个人来说是非常重要的。

But keeping in mind that there's also this layer of learned, lived, cultural, developed expectations we impose onto the world.

但请记住，我们还对世界强加了这一层学习的、生活的、文化的、发达的期望。

And we do not filter, but we steer our attention, we steer our perception to accommodate, to align with our expectations.

我们不过滤，但我们引导我们的注意力，我们引导我们的感知来适应，与我们的期望保持一致。

So it's never just the reality of what the person experienced or what happened.

因此，这绝不只是一个人所经历或发生的事情的现实。

It's always our perception of that reality as we expected it to happen.

这始终是我们对现实的看法，正如我们所期望的那样。

So there's this very dynamic cultural co-construction happening that is messy, that is iterative that you can learn to do in different ways in different contexts.

因此，这种非常动态的文化共建正在发生，它是混乱的，这是迭代的，你可以学习在不同的环境中以不同的方式进行。

And that's kind of how I understand this notion of mirroring.

这就是我对镜像概念的理解。

Andrew Huberman: Before we conclude, I do want to answer your son's question.

Andrew Huberman：在我们结束之前，我确实想回答你儿子的问题。

So prior to recording, there was a text message that came.

所以在录制之前，有一条短信来了。

We don't have to read it verbatim, but the text message.

我们不必逐字阅读，而是阅读短信。

Mary Helen's son is late teenage years, and he's been doing deliberate cold exposure, cold showers on a daily basis and reported that he hasn't had any colds since starting this.

玛丽·海伦的儿子已经十几岁了，他每天都在刻意进行寒冷暴露、冷水淋浴，并报告说自从开始这样做以来，他没有患过任何感冒。

This is actually a pretty common experience because the pulse and adrenaline that is inevitable with an uncomfortably cold but safe--

这实际上是一种很常见的经历，因为在令人不舒服的寒冷但安全的情况下，不可避免的脉搏和肾上腺素——

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang: --Yeah.

玛丽·海伦·伊莫迪诺-杨：——是的。

No. He jumps out of bed in the morning, does a whole bunch of exercises to get warm, and then jumps in a freezing cold shower.

不。他早上从床上跳起来，做了一大堆运动来取暖，然后跳进冰冷的淋浴。

Andrew Huberman: Amazing.

安德鲁·休伯曼：太棒了。

That spike of adrenaline we know is neuroprotective.

我们知道肾上腺素的激增具有神经保护作用。

If it's a short lived spike in adrenaline, you don't want chronically, you don't want chronic stress.

如果肾上腺素的峰值是短暂的，那么你就不会想要长期的，你不会想要长期的压力。

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang: That's not good.

玛丽·海伦·伊莫迪诺-杨：这不好。

Andrew Huberman: That's not good.

安德鲁·胡伯曼：这不好。

We know that from the beautiful work of Bruce McEwen and Bob Sapolski and others.

我们从布鲁斯·麦克尤恩（Bruce McEwen）和鲍勃·萨波尔斯基（Bob Sapolski）等人的出色工作中知道了这一点。

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang: Gorgeous.

玛丽·海伦·伊莫迪诺-杨：太漂亮了。

Andrew Huberman: But then he asked, should he get sick, should he continue the cold showers?

安德鲁·休伯曼：但后来他问，如果他生病了，他应该继续洗冷水澡吗？

And the answer is no. I think that then it would be hot showers and hot baths and sauna type stuff is probably better, but not so hot that it's stressful.

答案是否定的。我认为热水淋浴、热水浴和桑拿之类的东西可能会更好，但不要太热，以免产生压力。

You really want to reduce stress on an ill system.

您确实想减轻生病系统的压力。

So he sounds, for many reasons, like a remarkable young man, as is your daughter.

因此，出于多种原因，他听起来像一个杰出的年轻人，就像你的女儿一样。

It sounds like a remarkable, wonderful, and you're remarkable, and I really mean that.

这听起来很了不起，很棒，而且你很了不起，我是认真的。

I feel like we could go on forever exploring these ideas.

我觉得我们可以永远继续探索这些想法。

I absolutely would love to have you back for another discussion or many about your research.

我非常希望您能回来进行另一次讨论或许多有关您的研究的讨论。

I want to thank you for taking the time out of your research schedule, your teaching schedule to come educate us today.

我要感谢您今天从您的研究计划和教学计划中抽出时间来教育我们。

These ideas are so vitally important and you provide so many real world examples.

这些想法非常重要，您提供了很多现实世界的例子。

In fact, it's one of the things that I love so much about your work is that it's really nested in real world applications.

事实上，我非常喜欢您的工作的原因之一是它确实嵌套在现实世界的应用程序中。

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang: Thank you.

玛丽·海伦·伊莫迪诺-杨：谢谢。

Andrew Huberman: And your thoughts and perspectives on education and how it could be better at the level of educating kids at home, teaching ourselves, teachers and the education system, I hope will ring far and wide because they really can be implemented.

安德鲁·胡伯曼：您对教育的想法和观点，以及如何在家庭教育孩子、自学、教师和教育系统方面做得更好，我希望能够广泛传播，因为它们确实可以实施。

We're not talking about the need to purchase a bunch of stuff.

我们不是在谈论需要购买一堆东西。

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang: No, we need to start with a different disposition.

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang：不，我们需要从不同的态度开始。

We need to start with a different goal.

我们需要从不同的目标开始。

Yeah.

是的。

The goal of education needs to not...

教育的目标不应该...

Learning is not the goal, it's not the outcome.

学习不是目标，也不是结果。

It needs to be the development of the person.

它需要是人的发展。

How is a person changing themselves having learned this?

一个人学会了这一点后如何改变自己？

And then you design the learning opportunities to change who people are capable of becoming.

然后你设计学习机会来改变人们有能力成为什么样的人。

So the learning is there, but it's not the endpoint.

所以学习就在那里，但不是终点。

It's just the means to something else which we haven't been attending to enough.

这只是我们关注不够的其他事情的手段。

And that's the development of the person who they become, having learned that.

这就是他们在学到这一点后所成为的人的发展。

Andrew Huberman: Beautifully put.

安德鲁·休伯曼：说得很漂亮。

Well, thank you so much for your time.

嗯，非常感谢您抽出时间。

Thank you so much for the work you do.

非常感谢您所做的工作。

And I can't wait to have another discussion with you about the emerging research.

我迫不及待地想与您再次讨论新兴研究。

Mary Helen Immordino-Yang: Great.

玛丽·海伦·伊莫迪诺-杨：太好了。

I'll be back.

我会回来的。

Andrew Huberman: Thank you.

安德鲁·休伯曼：谢谢。

Thank you for joining me today for my discussion about emotions, social interactions, and learning with Dr. Mary Helen Immordino-Yang.

感谢您今天加入我与 Mary Helen Immordino-Yang 博士讨论情感、社交互动和学习。

I hope you found the conversation to be as informative and enriching as I did.

我希望您能像我一样发现这次谈话内容丰富、内容丰富。

If you'd like to learn more about Dr. Immordino-Yang's research, please find the link to her laboratory website in the show note captions.

如果您想了解有关 Immordino-Yang 博士研究的更多信息，请在节目注释标题中找到她的实验室网站的链接。

In addition, Dr. Immordino-Yang authored an incredible book called Emotions, Learning, and the Brain.

此外，Immordino-Yang 博士还撰写了一本令人难以置信的书，名为《情绪、学习和大脑》。

It's a book designed for the general public.

这是一本为普通大众设计的书。

It's incredibly informative and has a lot of practical tools as well.

它的信息非常丰富，并且还有很多实用工具。

We've provided a link to that book in the show note captions.

我们在节目注释标题中提供了该书的链接。

If you're learning from and or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel.

如果您正在学习或喜欢此播客，请订阅我们的 YouTube 频道。

That's a terrific, zero cost way to support us.

这是支持我们的绝佳、零成本的方式。

In addition, please subscribe to the podcast on both Spotify and Apple.

此外，请在 Spotify 和 Apple 上订阅该播客。

And on both Spotify and Apple, you can leave us up to a five star review.

在 Spotify 和 Apple 上，您都可以给我们留下五星级的评价。

If you have questions for me or comments about the podcast or guests that you'd like me to include on the Huberman Lab podcast, please put those in the comments section on YouTube.

如果您对我有疑问，或者对您希望我在 Huberman Lab 播客中包含的播客或嘉宾有意见，请将这些意见放入 YouTube 的评论部分。

I do read all the comments.

我确实阅读了所有评论。

Please also check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode.

另请查看今天节目开头和整个节目中提到的赞助商。

That's the best way to support this podcast.

这是支持这个播客的最佳方式。

Not on today's episode, but on many previous episodes of the Huberman Lab podcast, we discuss supplements.

不是在今天的节目中，而是在 Huberman Lab 播客的许多之前的节目中，我们讨论了补充剂。

While supplements aren't necessary for everybody, many people derive tremendous benefit from them for things like enhancing sleep, for hormone support, and for focus.

虽然补充剂并不是每个人都需要的，但许多人从它们中获得了巨大的好处，例如增强睡眠、激素支持和注意力集中。

The Huberman Lab podcast is proud to have partnered with Momentous Supplements.

Huberman Lab 播客很荣幸与 Momentous Supplements 合作。

To see the supplements discussed on the Huberman Lab podcast, go to livemomentous, spelled O-U-S.

要查看 Huberman Lab 播客上讨论的补充内容，请访问 livemomentous（拼写为 O-U-S）。

So that's livemomentous.com/huberman.

这就是 livemomentous.com/huberman。

Again, that's livemomentous.com/huberman.

再说一遍，这是 livemomentous.com/huberman。

If you're not already following us on social media, I am Huberman Lab on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, and LinkedIn.

如果您还没有在社交媒体上关注我们，我是 Instagram、Twitter、Facebook 和 LinkedIn 上的 Huberman Lab。

And at all those places, I discuss science and science-related tools, some of which overlaps with the content of the Huberman Lab podcast, but much of which often does not overlap with the content of the Huberman Lab podcast.

在所有这些地方，我讨论了科学和与科学相关的工具，其中一些与胡伯曼实验室播客的内容重叠，但其中大部分通常与胡伯曼实验室播客的内容不重叠。

So again, it's Huberman Lab on all social media platforms.

再说一遍，所有社交媒体平台上都是 Huberman Lab。

In addition, if you haven't subscribed to our Neural Network Newsletter, it's a zero cost monthly newsletter that provides summaries of podcast episodes as well as toolkits.

此外，如果您还没有订阅我们的神经网络时事通讯，这是一份零成本的每月时事通讯，提供播客剧集摘要以及工具包。

For instance, toolkits for optimizing sleep, or toolkits for learning and neuroplasticity, or for deliberate cold exposure, or for dopamine, and on and on to sign up for the Neural Network Newsletter, simply go to hubermanlab.com, go to the menu, scroll down to newsletter and provide your email.

例如，用于优化睡眠的工具包，或用于学习和神经可塑性的工具包，或用于故意冷暴露的工具包，或多巴胺的工具包，以及诸如此类的注册神经网络通讯的工具包，只需访问 hubermanlab.com，进入菜单，向下滚动到通讯并提供您的电子邮件即可。

We do not share your email with anybody.

我们不会与任何人分享您的电子邮件。

Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Mary Helen Immordino-Yang.

再次感谢您参加今天与 Mary Helen Immordino-Yang 博士的讨论。

And last but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.

最后但并非最不重要的一点是，感谢您对科学的兴趣。