Dr. Gina Poe: Use Sleep to Enhance Learning, Memory & Emotional State

I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of nNeurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.

我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。

Today, my guest is Dr. Gina Poe.

今天，我的嘉宾是吉娜·坡博士。

Dr. Gina Poe is a professor in the Department of Integrative Biology and Physiology at the University of California Los Angeles.

吉娜·坡博士是加州大学洛杉矶分校综合生物学与生理学系教授。

Her laboratory and research focuses on the relationship between sleep and learning, in particular how specific patterns of brain activity that are present during specific phases of sleep impact our ability to learn and remember specific types of information.

她的实验室和研究重点是睡眠和学习之间的关系，特别是在特定睡眠阶段出现的特定大脑活动模式如何影响我们学习和记住特定类型信息的能力。

For instance, procedural information-- that is how to perform specific cognitive or physical tasks, as well as encoding of emotional memories and discarding emotional memories.

例如，程序信息——即如何执行特定的认知或身体任务，以及情感记忆的编码和丢弃情感记忆。

Indeed, her research focuses on how specific phases of sleep can act as its own form of trauma therapy, discarding the emotional tones of memories.

事实上，她的研究重点是睡眠的特定阶段如何作为其自身的创伤治疗形式，抛弃记忆的情绪基调。

In addition, her laboratory focuses on how specific phases of sleep impact things like the release of growth hormone.

此外，她的实验室重点研究睡眠的特定阶段如何影响生长激素的释放等。

Growth hormone, of course, plays critical roles in metabolism and tissue repair, including brain tissue repair, and therefore has critical roles in vitality and longevity.

当然，生长激素在新陈代谢和组织修复（包括脑组织修复）中发挥着关键作用，因此对活力和寿命也起着关键作用。

Today you will learn many things about the relationship between sleep, learning, emotionality, and growth hormone.

今天您将了解许多有关睡眠、学习、情绪和生长激素之间关系的知识。

One basic but very important takeaway that you'll learn about today, which was news to me, is that it's not just the duration and depth of your sleep that matter, but actually getting to sleep at relatively the same time each night ensures that you get adequate growth hormone release in the first hours of sleep.

今天您将学到的一个基本但非常重要的知识（这对我来说是新闻）是，重要的不仅仅是睡眠的持续时间和深度，而且实际上每晚在相对相同的时间入睡可确保您在睡眠的头几个小时内获得足够的生长激素释放。

In fact, if you require, let's say, eight hours of sleep per night, but you go to sleep two hours later than your typical bedtime on any given night, you actually miss the window for growth hormone release.

事实上，如果您需要每晚八小时的睡眠，但您在任何一个晚上比正常就寝时间晚两小时入睡，那么您实际上错过了生长激素释放的窗口期。

That's right.

这是正确的。

Getting growth hormone release in sleep, which is absolutely critical to our immediate and long term health, is not a prerequisite of getting sleep, even if we are getting enough sleep.

在睡眠中释放生长激素对我们的近期和长期健康绝对至关重要，但它并不是睡眠的先决条件，即使我们有足够的睡眠。

As Dr. Poe explains, there are critical brain circuits and endocrine, that is hormone, circuits that regulate not just the duration and depth and quality and timing of sleep, but when we place our bout of sleep, that is when we go to sleep each night, plus or minus about a half hour or so, strongly dictates whether or not we will experience all the health promoting, including mind promoting, benefits of sleep.

正如 Poe 博士所解释的，有一些关键的大脑回路和内分泌，即激素，这些回路不仅调节睡眠的持续时间、深度、质量和时间，而且当我们安排睡眠时间时，即我们每晚入睡时，前后大约半小时左右，强烈决定我们是否会体验到所有促进健康的功能，包括促进精神的睡眠益处。

Today's episode covers that and a lot more in substantial detail.

今天的节目涵盖了这一点以及更多实质性细节。

You will learn, for instance, how to use sleep in order to optimize learning, as well as forgetting, for those things that you would like to forget.

例如，您将学习如何利用睡眠来优化学习，以及如何忘记那些您想忘记的事情。

So during today's episode, Dr. Gina Poe shares critical information about not just neuroscience, but physiology and the hormone systems of the brain and body that strongly inform mental health, physical health, and performance.

因此，在今天的节目中，吉娜·坡博士分享的重要信息不仅涉及神经科学，还涉及生理学以及大脑和身体的激素系统，这些信息对心理健康、身体健康和表现有很大影响。

So by the end of today's episode, you'll be far more informed about sleep and how it works, the different roles it performs, and you'll have several new actionable steps that you can take in order to improve your mental health, physical health, and performance.

因此，在今天的节目结束时，您将更加了解睡眠及其工作原理、它所扮演的不同角色，并且您将有几个可以采取的新的可操作步骤，以改善您的心理健康、身体健康和表现。

Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.

在开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。

It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public.

然而，我的愿望和努力的一部分是向公众提供有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本消费者信息。

In keeping with that theme, I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast.

为了与这个主题保持一致，我要感谢今天播客的赞助商。

Our first sponsor is LMNT.

我们的第一个赞助商是LMNT。

LMNT is an electrolyte drink that has everything you need and nothing you don't.

LMNT 是一种电解质饮料，拥有您需要的一切，没有您不需要的东西。

That means plenty of salt, magnesium, and potassium, the so-called electrolytes, and no sugar.

这意味着需要大量的盐、镁和钾，即所谓的电解质，并且不含糖。

The electrolytes are critical to the function of every cell in your body, in particular, the neurons, the nerve cells.

电解质对于体内每个细胞的功能至关重要，特别是神经元、神经细胞。

So I've talked about before on this podcast, neurons, nerve cells, require adequate sodium and potassium, as well as magnesium, in order to fire action potentials, which are the electrical signals that allow neurons to do everything from generate focus and attention, allow you to learn, and generate neuromuscular connection, and allow you to exercise or train or do any kind of skilled activity with a high degree of output.

所以我之前在这个播客上谈到过，神经元、神经细胞需要足够的钠和钾以及镁，才能激发动作电位，动作电位是一种电信号，可以让神经元做一切事情，从产生焦点和注意力，让你学习，产生神经肌肉连接，让你锻炼或训练或进行任何类型的高输出技能活动。

I take LMNT about two or three times per day, typically once in the morning and again after or during my bout of exercise each day and sometimes an additional one if I've sat in a hot sauna and sweat a lot or if the weather is very hot.

我每天服用 LMNT 大约两到三次，通常是早上一次，每天运动后或运动期间再服用一次，有时，如果我坐在热桑拿房里出汗很多，或者天气很热，还会额外服用一次。

If you'd like to try LMNT, you can go to drinklmnt.com/huberman to claim a free LMNT sample pack with your purchase.

如果您想尝试 LMNT，可以访问 Drinklmnt.com/huberman，在购买时索取免费的 LMNT 样品包。

Again, that's drinklmnt.com/huberman to claim a free sample pack.

再次强调，请访问 Drinklmnt.com/huberman 索取免费样品包。

Today's episode is also brought to us by Helix Sleep.

今天的节目也是由 Helix Sleep 为我们带来的。

Helix Sleep makes mattresses and pillows that are of the absolute highest quality.

Helix Sleep 生产绝对最高品质的床垫和枕头。

Now, sleep is the foundation of mental health, physical health, and performance.

现在，睡眠是心理健康、身体健康和表现的基础。

When we are sleeping well, all of those things excel, and when we are not sleeping well, all of those things suffer.

当我们睡眠良好时，所有这些事情都会发挥作用，而当我们睡眠不好时，所有这些事情都会受到影响。

Now, the surface that you sleep on, that is the mattress that you sleep on, is critical, and Helix understands that everybody has slightly different sleep needs.

现在，您睡觉的表面（即您睡觉的床垫）至关重要，Helix 知道每个人的睡眠需求都略有不同。

So if you were to go to the Helix site, which I invite you to do, and take their brief two minute quiz, it will match your body type and sleep preferences to the perfect mattress for you.

因此，如果您访问 Helix 网站（我邀请您这样做）并参加他们的两分钟简短测验，它将根据您的体型和睡眠偏好来匹配最适合您的床垫。

It will ask you questions.

它会问你问题。

For instance, do you sleep on your back or your side or your stomach?

例如，您睡觉时是仰卧、侧卧还是俯卧？

Do you tend to run hot or cold during the night?

你晚上容易感到热还是冷？

Or maybe you don't know the answers to those questions.

或者也许您不知道这些问题的答案。

I went and took the sleep quiz at Helix, and it matched me to the so-called Dusk Mattress-- D-U-S-K.

我去 Helix 做了睡眠测试，它把我和所谓的 Dusk Mattress——D-U-S-K 相匹配。

I started sleeping on Dusk Mattress over a year ago, and it's the best sleep that I've ever had.

我一年多前开始睡 Dusk 床垫，这是我睡过的最好的睡眠。

It's completely transformed the depth and duration and quality of my sleep in ways that make me feel far better during the daytime.

它彻底改变了我睡眠的深度、持续时间和质量，让我在白天感觉更好。

If you're interested in upgrading your mattress, you can go to helixsleep.com/huberman, take their two minute sleep quiz, and they'll match you to a customized mattress.

如果您有兴趣升级床垫，可以访问 helixsleep.com/huberman，参加他们的两分钟睡眠测验，他们将为您匹配定制床垫。

And you'll get up to $350 off any mattress order and two free pillows.

订购任何床垫可享受高达 350 美元的优惠，并免费获赠两个枕头。

Again, if interested, go to helixsleep.com/huberman for up to $350 off and two free pillows.

同样，如果有兴趣，请访问 helixsleep.com/huberman，享受高达 350 美元的折扣和两个免费枕头。

Today's episode is also brought to us by Eight Sleep.

今天的节目也是八觉给我们带来的。

Eight Sleep makes smart mattress covers with cooling, heating, and sleep tracking capacity.

August Sleep 生产具有冷却、加热和睡眠跟踪功能的智能床垫套。

Now, again, sleep is the foundation of mental health, physical health, and performance.

现在，睡眠是心理健康、身体健康和表现的基础。

But what many people don't realize is that in order to fall and stay asleep, your core body temperature has to drop by about one to three degrees.

但许多人没有意识到，为了入睡并保持睡眠状态，您的核心体温必须下降约一到三度。

Conversely, in order to wake up each morning and feel refreshed, your body temperature actually has to increase by one to three degrees.

相反，为了每天早上醒来并感到精神焕发，您的体温实际上必须升高一到三度。

Therefore, controlling the temperature of your sleeping environment is absolutely key.

因此，控制睡眠环境的温度绝对是关键。

With Eight Sleep, that's very easy to do.

有了八睡眠，这很容易做到。

Depending on whether or not you typically run too cold or too hot during the night, you can program your sleep mattress cover so that it's the optimal temperature not just for you, but for each phase-- the early, middle, and late phase of your sleep-- and for waking up in the morning.

根据您通常在夜间是否太冷或太热，您可以对睡眠床垫罩进行编程，使其不仅适合您，而且适合每个阶段（睡眠的早、中、晚阶段）以及早上醒来的最佳温度。

In fact, you can even control the temperature of your sleep mattress cover differentially across the mattress if you're sleeping alongside somebody else.

事实上，如果您与其他人一起睡觉，您甚至可以控制床垫套的温度。

If you'd like to try Eight Sleep, you can go to eightsleep.com/huberman and check out their Pod Pro cover and save $150 at checkout.

如果您想尝试八睡眠，可以访问八睡眠.com/huberman 并查看他们的 Pod Pro 封面，结账时可节省 150 美元。

Eight Sleep currently ships in the USA, Canada, UK, and select countries in the EU and Australia.

八睡眠目前在美国、加拿大、英国以及欧盟和澳大利亚的部分国家/地区发货。

Again, that's eightsleep.com/huberman to save $150 at checkout.

再次强调，八睡眠网站/huberman 可以在结账时节省 150 美元。

The Huberman Lab podcast is now partnered with Momentous Supplements.

Huberman Lab 播客现已与 Momentous Supplements 合作。

To find the supplements we discuss on the Huberman Lab podcast, you can go to livemomentous.com/huberman.

要查找我们在 Huberman Lab 播客上讨论的补充剂，您可以访问 livemomentous.com/huberman。

And I should just mentioned that the library of those supplements is constantly expanding.

我应该提到的是，这些补充品的库正在不断扩大。

Again, that's livemomentous.com/huberman.

再说一遍，这是 livemomentous.com/huberman。

And now for my discussion with Dr. Gina Poe.

现在我与吉娜·坡博士进行讨论。

Dr. Gina Poe, welcome.

吉娜·坡博士，欢迎光临。

And if you would, could you describe the various phases of sleep that exist?

如果愿意的话，您能描述一下睡眠的各个阶段吗？

What distinguish them?

他们有什么区别？

And perhaps frame this within the context of what would a perfect night's sleep look like?

也许可以将这一点放在完美的夜间睡眠是什么样子的背景下？

And in the different stages of sleep, which there is non-REM and REM are the two major states of sleep, and every animal we've studied so far seems to have both of those states.

在睡眠的不同阶段，非快速眼动睡眠和快速眼动睡眠是睡眠的两种主要状态，到目前为止我们研究的每种动物似乎都具有这两种状态。

Anyway, those two states are entirely different from one another, too.

无论如何，这两种状态也完全不同。

And even within non-REM, there are three states.

即使在非快速眼动睡眠中，也存在三种状态。

Stage one, which is what you slip into when you first falling asleep-- it's dozing.

第一阶段，也就是你第一次入睡时进入的阶段——打瞌睡。

There's kind of an interesting rhythm that goes on in the brain.

大脑中有一种有趣的节奏。

It's kind of a fast, gamma rhythm.

这是一种快速的伽玛节奏。

And then there's stage two, which is a really cool state we sort of used to ignore, sleep researchers, because it was a transient state between wakefulness and the deep stage three, slow wave sleep, which is the most impressively different.

然后是第二阶段，这是一个非常酷的状态，我们过去常常忽略睡眠研究人员，因为它是清醒状态和深度第三阶段慢波睡眠之间的过渡状态，这是最令人印象深刻的不同。

And between that and REM sleep.

在此和快速眼动睡眠之间。

So stage two, I'll talk a little bit more about.

所以第二阶段，我会多谈谈。

And then the deep, slow wave sleep state, which is when big, slow waves sweep through our brain.

然后是深度、慢波睡眠状态，此时大而慢的波席卷我们的大脑。

And now we realize that it cleans our brain.

现在我们意识到它可以清洁我们的大脑。

One of the things that those big, slow waves do is cleans our brain and does other really important things to restore us from a day of wakefulness.

这些大而慢的电波所做的事情之一就是清洁我们的大脑，并做其他真正重要的事情，让我们从一天的清醒中恢复过来。

And then REM sleep, which is the most popular because that's where we have the most active dreams.

然后是最受欢迎的快速眼动睡眠，因为这是我们做梦最活跃的阶段。

And when you wake up someone out of REM sleep, they'll almost always report having dreamed something really bizarre.

当你把某人从快速眼动睡眠中叫醒时，他们几乎总是会说做了一些非常奇怪的梦。

That's called REM sleep, rapid eye movement sleep.

这就是所谓的快速眼动睡眠，即快速眼动睡眠。

So those are the four states of sleep, of human sleep, and we cycle through them every 90 minutes or so.

这就是人类睡眠的四种睡眠状态，我们每 90 分钟左右就会循环一次。

When we go to sleep, say 10:30, 11:00, our first REM sleep period comes about 105 minutes after we fall asleep and lasts about 20 minutes.

当我们入睡时，比如 10:30、11:00，我们的第一个快速眼动睡眠期出现在入睡后约 105 分钟，持续约 20 分钟。

Actually, it comes about 95 minutes and lasts 10 or 15 minutes.

实际上，它大约持续 95 分钟，持续 10 或 15 分钟。

And then we start over again.

然后我们重新开始。

And we have about five of those per night for a perfect night's sleep-- four or five, something like that.

我们每晚大约有五个这样的设备，可以让您睡个好觉——四到五个，类似的东西。

So a perfect night's sleep is seven and a half, eight hours.

因此，一个完美的睡眠时间是七个半小时、八个小时。

There was a really great study that put people in a semi-darkened room with nothing but the bed for 12 hours every day for a month.

有一项非常出色的研究，将人们放在半暗的房间里，除了床之外什么都没有，每天持续 12 个小时，持续一个月。

And what people did initially, because we're in a sleep deprived nation, is that they slept a lot more than usual, like 10 or 11 hours of the 12.

由于我们生活在一个睡眠不足的国家，人们最初的做法是比平时睡得更多，比如 12 个小时中的 10 或 11 个小时。

And then they leveled off after a week or two to about eight hours and 15 minutes of sleep.

一两周后，他们的睡眠时间稳定在大约 8 小时 15 分钟。

So you actually can't oversleep.

所以你实际上不能睡过头。

I mean, they had nothing else to do but sleep, and they would round off to an average eight hours and 15 minutes a night and then spend the rest of the time twiddling their thumbs, humming tunes--

我的意思是，他们除了睡觉没有别的事可做，他们会平均每晚睡 8 小时 15 分钟，然后用剩下的时间摆弄拇指，哼着曲子——

But some people don't feel rested until they've slept nine hours.

但有些人直到睡了九个小时才感到休息。

Some people don't feel rested after three or four and a half.

有些人三四年半后就感觉没有休息好。

But most people, if they consistently deprive themselves of sleep so that they're only sleeping for four and a half hours a night, build up a cognitive deficit that just builds up over time.

但大多数人如果持续剥夺自己的睡眠，每晚只睡四个半小时，就会形成认知缺陷，而且这种缺陷会随着时间的推移而不断累积。

The more nights you have with sleep deprivation, the more cognitive deficit you have.

睡眠不足的夜晚越多，认知缺陷就越严重。

And so you need sleep, again, to sleep more to recover.

所以你再次需要睡眠，多睡才能恢复。

Now, the question you had about um--

现在，你的问题是——

So if you find yourself sleeping consistently nine hours plus every night, then you might want to consult a doctor about maybe what else it might be.

因此，如果您发现自己每晚持续睡眠九个小时以上，那么您可能需要咨询医生，了解可能还有其他原因。

It could be cancer.

这可能是癌症。

It could be sleep apnea, which affects a lot of people.

这可能是睡眠呼吸暂停，影响很多人。

It could be that your sleep is super inefficient because you're snoring a lot more than you know, or you're waking up a lot more than you know every night.

您的睡眠效率可能非常低，因为您打鼾的次数比您知道的要多得多，或者您每晚醒来的次数比您知道的要多得多。

So you might want a sleep study just to see how your sleep is, and then see what else might be causing you to sleep so much.

因此，您可能需要进行睡眠研究，只是为了了解您的睡眠情况，然后看看还有什么可能导致您睡得太多。

So you said we fall asleep.

所以你说我们睡着了。

The first 90 minutes of sleep.

睡眠的前 90 分钟。

REM sleep, rapid eye movement sleep, will arrive at about 95 minutes in.

REM睡眠，即快速眼动睡眠，大约会在95分钟左右到达。

Does that mean that the rest of that 90 minutes is consumed with slow wave sleep?

这是否意味着剩下的 90 分钟都用于慢波睡眠？

And so it's these spindles.

就是这些纺锤。

They're called sleep spindles.

它们被称为睡眠纺锤体。

And if you wake up out of that state, you will often report a dream, like a hallucination style dream.

如果你从那种状态中醒来，你经常会报告一个梦，就像一个幻觉式的梦。

It won't be a long dream report like you have out of REM sleep, but it will be some hallucination state.

这不会是像快速眼动睡眠中那样的长梦报告，但会是某种幻觉状态。

And while we're falling asleep, one of the reasons we call it falling asleep is because in stage one and stage two our muscles are relaxing.

当我们入睡时，我们称之为入睡的原因之一是因为在第一阶段和第二阶段我们的肌肉处于放松状态。

And if there's part of our brain that's conscious enough to sort of recognize that relaxation, we'll feel like we're falling, and we'll jerk awake.

如果我们大脑的某个部分有足够的意识来识别这种放松，我们就会感觉自己正在坠落，然后猛地惊醒。

So often that hallucination-- it's called hypnagogic hallucination-- will feel like-- it'll include some falling aspect that we'll wake up out of.

通常，这种幻觉——它被称为入睡幻觉——会让人感觉——它会包括一些我们会从中醒来的坠落相位。

So nobody knows why, but it does.

所以没有人知道为什么，但确实如此。

There was a great study by Siddhartha Ribeiro who studied the consolidation of memories from the hippocampus to the cortex in a rat across the period of a full day's sleep because rats sleep in the daytime.

悉达多·里贝罗（Siddhartha Ribeiro）进行了一项伟大的研究，他研究了老鼠在全天睡眠期间从海马体到皮质的记忆巩固情况，因为老鼠在白天睡觉。

And he found that each subsequent REM sleep period moved that memory from the hippocampus to the first area that projects to it, and then the second area, and then the third area.

他发现，随后的每个快速眼动睡眠周期都会将记忆从海马体转移到投射到它的第一个区域，然后是第二个区域，然后是第三个区域。

And you can see the memory moving throughout the sleep period.

你可以看到记忆在整个睡眠期间移动。

So that is what we know.

这就是我们所知道的。

There's also a big push to synthesize proteins.

蛋白质的合成也得到了大力推动。

So that's when the protein synthesis part that builds memories, for example, in our brain happens in that first cycle of sleep.

因此，这就是我们大脑中建立记忆的蛋白质合成部分发生在第一个睡眠周期的时候。

So you don't want to miss that, especially if you've learned something really big and needs more synaptic space to encode it.

所以你不想错过这一点，特别是如果你已经学到了一些非常大的东西并且需要更多的突触空间来编码它。

And so our cells are ready to respond to that growth hormone release at a particular time.

因此，我们的细胞已准备好在特定时间对生长激素的释放做出反应。

And if we miss it-- and it's a time in relation to melatonin also-- so if you miss it, yeah, you might get some growth hormone release.

如果我们错过了——这也是与褪黑激素有关的时间——所以如果你错过了，是的，你可能会释​​放一些生长激素。

But it's occurring at a time when your clock has already moved to the next phase.

但它发生在你的时钟已经进入下一阶段的时候。

And so it's just a clock thing.

所以这只是一个时钟的事情。

So if you don't want to miss that, you don't want to miss REM sleep when it's also a part of the consolidation process and schema changing process, and alcohol in there before we go to sleep will do that.

因此，如果你不想错过这一点，你就不想错过快速眼动睡眠，因为它也是巩固过程和模式改变过程的一部分，而我们入睡前的酒精就能做到这一点。

Until we've metabolized alcohol and put it out of our bodies, it will affect our sleep badly.

在我们代谢掉酒精并将其排出体外之前，它会严重影响我们的睡眠。

What about the second and third 90-minute blocks of sleep?

那么第二个和第三个 90 分钟的睡眠时间呢？

Is there anything that makes those unique?

有什么东西让它们独一无二吗？

What is their signature besides the fact that they come second and third in the night?

除了当晚排名第二和第三之外，他们的标志是什么？

So it is a really different stage that you also don't want to shortchange yourself on.

所以这是一个非常不同的阶段，你也不想在这个阶段上亏待自己。

And I think that's the stage many studies are showing that those are the times in sleep when the most creativity can happen.

我认为许多研究都表明，在这个阶段，睡眠中最能发挥创造力。

That's when our dreams can incorporate and put together old and new things together into a new way.

那时我们的梦想可以将新旧事物融合并以一种新的方式组合在一起。

And our schema are built during that time.

我们的模式就是在那段时间建立的。

So yeah, we can change our minds best during those phases of sleep.

所以，是的，我们可以在睡眠的这些阶段最好地改变我们的想法。

And we can just give ourselves a list of words, and none of them contain the word Christmas.

我们可以给自己一个单词列表，但其中没有一个包含“圣诞节”这个词。

And then ask people later, give them another list of words and include the word Christmas.

然后稍后询问人们，给他们另一个单词列表，并包括“圣诞节”这个词。

And they'll say, oh, yeah, that word was there, because in their minds they brought up that word, Christmas, because it's part of that whole schema.

他们会说，哦，是的，这个词就在那里，因为在他们的脑海里他们提到了这个词，圣诞节，因为它是整个模式的一部分。

So that's what-- it's sort of a related-- lot of related concepts, I guess.

我想这就是——它是一种相关的——很多相关的概念。

So that's probably one of the origins of creativity is finding things that are related, maybe just linked a little bit.

因此，创造力的起源之一可能就是寻找相关的事物，也许只是有一点联系。

And you can find that link and strengthen it if it makes your schema interesting and different.

如果它使您的模式变得有趣且与众不同，您可以找到该链接并加强它。

But the point here is that I think a lot of people wake up once in the middle of the night oftentimes to use the restroom but oftentimes just around 3:00 AM and might be up for a few minutes, hopefully not on their phone or viewing any bright light which can cause more wakefulness, but then go back to sleep.

但这里的要点是，我认为很多人经常在半夜醒来上厕所，但通常是在凌晨 3:00 左右，可能会起床几分钟，希望不要看手机或看任何可能导致更清醒的强光，然后再回去睡觉。

Is there any known detriment to this middle of the night waking or should we consider it a normal feature for some people's sleep architecture?

半夜醒来是否有任何已知的危害，或者我们是否应该将其视为某些人睡眠结构的正常特征？

So don't worry about it.

所以不用担心。

It's absolutely normal to wake up at least once in the middle of the night to go to the bathroom.

半夜至少醒来一次去洗手间是绝对正常的。

And as long as you can get back to sleep in a reasonable amount of time or even if it takes you an hour, don't worry about it, as long as you have a lifestyle that allows you to then make up that sleep either the next morning or the next night or going to bed a little earlier.

只要您能在合理的时间内重新入睡，或者即使需要一个小时，也不必担心，只要您的生活方式允许您在第二天早上或第二天晚上补觉，或者早一点睡觉。

I do notice that when I go back to sleep and especially toward morning that my sleep is incredibly deep.

我确实注意到，当我重新入睡时，尤其是在早上，我的睡眠非常深。

My dreams are incredibly vivid.

我的梦极其生动。

But in fact, if you give someone a non-threatening kind of stimulation like somebody dropping keys, or a ping, or something like that, instead of waking-- that same volume will wake someone up out of non-REM sleep but out of REM sleep and instead lengthen the amount of time or make it even more dense-- your rapid eye movements more dense.

但事实上，如果你给某人一种非威胁性的刺激，比如某人按下按键、发出一声“ping”或类似的东西，而不是醒来——同样的音量会把某人从非快速眼动睡眠中唤醒，但从快速眼动睡眠中醒来，反而会延长时间或使其更加密集​​——你的快速眼球运动会更加密集。

And often people will incorporate that sound into their dreams.

人们常常会将这种声音融入他们的梦中。

Actually in children, it's kind of a toss up, because it's really hard to wake them up out of that deep slow wave sleep.

实际上，对于儿童来说，这有点麻烦，因为很难将他们从深度慢波睡眠中唤醒。

And in fact, fire alarms don't wake them up, even really loud fire alarms out of that state of sleep.

事实上，火警警报不会把他们吵醒，即使是非常响亮的火警警报也不会从睡眠状态中叫醒他们。

So that's why they're trying to change fire alarms so that instead of something that the kids don't associate with anything like the, whatever, they don't associate them, it says their name or something else that may be less loud but more salient to them and will wake them up.

所以这就是为什么他们试图改变火警警报器，这样孩子们就不会联想到任何东西，不管怎样，他们不会联想到他们，而是说出他们的名字或其他可能不太响亮但对他们来说更显着的东西，并会把他们吵醒。

The reason I started taking Athletic Greens, and the reason I still take Athletic Greens once or usually twice a day is that it gets me the probiotics that I need for gut health.

我开始服用运动绿色食品的原因，以及我仍然每天服用一次或通常两次运动绿色食品的原因是，它能为我提供肠道健康所需的益生菌。

Our gut is very important.

我们的直觉非常重要。

It's populated by gut microbiota that communicate with the brain, the immune system, and basically all the biological systems of our body to strongly impact our immediate and long term health.

它充满了肠道微生物群，它们与大脑、免疫系统以及我们身体的所有生物系统进行交流，对我们的近期和长期健康产生强烈影响。

And those probiotics and Athletic Greens are optimal and vital for microbiome health.

这些益生菌和运动绿色食品对于微生物组健康来说是最佳且至关重要的。

In addition, Athletic Greens contains a number of adaptogens, vitamins, and minerals that make sure that all of my foundational nutritional needs are met.

此外，运动绿叶蔬菜还含有多种适应原、维生素和矿物质，可确保满足我所有的基本营养需求。

And it tastes great.

而且味道好极了。

If you'd like to try Athletic Greens, you can go to athleticgreens.com/huberman.

如果您想尝试 Athletic Greens，可以访问 Athletic Greens.com/huberman。

And they'll give you five free travel packs that make it really easy to mix up Athletic Greens while you're on the road, in the car, on the plane, et cetera.

他们还会为您提供五个免费旅行包，让您在路上、车里、飞机上等时都能轻松搭配运动果岭。

And they'll give you a year supply of vitamin D-3 K-2.

他们将为您提供一年的维生素 D-3 K-2。

Again, that's athleticgreens.com/huberman to get the five free travel packs and the year supply of vitamin D-3 K-2.

再次强调，您可以访问 sportsgreens.com/huberman 获取 5 个免费旅行包和全年维生素 D-3 K-2 供应量。

So this enhanced volume or proportion of rapid eye movement sleep in the second half of the night relates to more elaborate dreams.

因此，后半夜快速眼动睡眠的数量或比例的增加与更复杂的梦有关。

We are paralyzed during REM sleep, correct?

我们在快速眼动睡眠期间处于瘫痪状态，对吗？

And so different from sleepwalking which is out of slow wave sleep.

这与梦游不同，梦游是由慢波睡眠引起的。

And out of slow wave sleep, that sleepwalking is a mixture between sleep and wakefulness.

在慢波睡眠中，梦游是睡眠和清醒的混合体。

So you actually will respond to the door, or you can cook a full meal, drive your car while you're in deep slow wave sleep.

因此，您实际上会对门做出反应，或者您可以在深度慢波睡眠中做饭、开车。

It's scary, because you never know what you're going to do.

这很可怕，因为你永远不知道自己要做什么。

You don't have voluntary, involuntary control over it.

你无法自愿或非自愿地控制它。

You have no conscious control over it.

你无法有意识地控制它。

But you can actually safely navigate some situations in sleepwalking and actually have a conversation.

但实际上，你可以在梦游中安全地应对某些情况，并进行真正的对话。

Although, it may not make much sense when you're sleep talking.

不过，当你在说梦话时，这可能没有多大意义。

In REM sleep, you're not processing the outside world.

在快速眼动睡眠中，您不会处理外部世界。

And instead, when you're acting out your dreams, you could be doing things like walking through a plate glass window or falling off of down the stairs, things like that.

相反，当你实现你的梦想时，你可能会做一些事情，比如穿过平板玻璃窗或从楼梯上摔下来，诸如此类的事情。

So you really want your muscles to be inactivated during REM sleep.

所以你确实希望你的肌肉在快速眼动睡眠期间不活动。

Otherwise, you will act out those dreams and really hurt yourself or your bed partner.

否则，你就会将这些梦想付诸实践，从而真正伤害自己或你的伴侣。

So as people start to approach morning or the time when they normally would wake up, I've heard that it's important to, if possible, complete one of these 90-minute cycles prior to waking up.

因此，当人们开始接近早晨或通常起床的时间时，我听说，如果可能的话，在起床前完成这些 90 分钟的周期之一非常重要。

That is if you set your alarm for halfway through one of these 90-minute cycles that come late in the night of sleep, that it can lead to rather groggy patterns of waking.

也就是说，如果你将闹钟设置在深夜睡眠中的 90 分钟周期之一的中途，可能会导致你醒来时变得相当昏昏沉沉。

So I'll just ask you directly.

那我就直接问你吧。

Do you use an alarm clock?

你用闹钟吗？

This 90-minute cycle is like a washing machine cycle.

这个 90 分钟的循环就像洗衣机的循环。

And the first part is to add water, right?

第一部分是加水，对吧？

And then your clothes are soaking wet.

然后你的衣服就湿透了。

You don't want to open the washing machine and try and function, put them on, and wear them around while they're soaking wet and full of soap.

您不想打开洗衣机并尝试运行，穿上它们，然后在它们浸湿并充满肥皂时穿着它们。

So you have to wait until the cycle is through before you can, well, actually, let's put it in the dryer, too, before you want to wear them.

因此，您必须等到周期结束后，才能，好吧，实际上，在您想穿它们之前，我们也将其放入烘干机中。

So yeah, you can function.

所以是的，你可以发挥作用。

It just takes a little while for those clothes, that brain to dry out, so you can actually function well.

只需要一段时间，那些衣服、大脑就会变干，这样你就可以真正正常运作了。

But it's better to wait through the whole cycle is complete.

但最好等待整个周期完成。

And so that's why you want to set that 90-minute, alarm clock.

这就是为什么你要设置 90 分钟的闹钟。

And again, that's around 90 minutes because the first stage of sleep, the first cycle of sleep is actually a little longer, more like 105, 110, minutes.

再说一次，这个时间大约是 90 分钟，因为睡眠的第一阶段，第一个睡眠周期实际上要长一些，更像是 105、110 分钟。

But then the second ones and third ones, they get shorter and shorter as the night goes on.

但第二个和第三个，随着夜幕降临，它们变得越来越短。

And in the last few cycles, you're just doing the end to REM sleep cycle which takes less time.

在最后几个周期中，您只是完成快速眼动睡眠周期的结束，这需要更少的时间。

And if you wake up out of REM sleep, there's usually no problem cognitively.

如果您从快速眼动睡眠中醒来，通常不会出现认知问题。

You're good to go.

你可以走了。

But a colleague of mine at Stanford, Ali Crum, who works on mindset and belief effects talked to me about a study they did where people often will bias their sense of daytime wakefulness based on their sleep score more than their subjective score.

但我在斯坦福大学的一位同事阿里·克拉姆（Ali Crum）研究心态和信念影响，他向我讲述了他们所做的一项研究，在这项研究中，人们常常会根据睡眠分数而不是主观分数来偏向白天清醒的感觉。

In other words, if they were told they got a poor night's sleep, even if they got a great night's sleep-- and this was of course measured in the sleep lab so they were able to compare-- people report feeling more groggy.

换句话说，如果他们被告知自己晚上睡得不好，即使他们睡得很好——这当然是在睡眠实验室测量的，以便他们能够进行比较——人们会报告感觉更昏昏沉沉。

And the opposite is also true that if it says 100% or 90% on your sleep score, then people go, oh, I feel great, even though they might not have slept well.

反之亦然，如果你的睡眠得分为 100% 或 90%，那么人们会说，哦，我感觉很好，尽管他们可能睡得不好。

So this speaks to the, I don't want to say placebo effect, but the belief effects that are woven in with a score.

所以这说明了，我不想说安慰剂效应，而是与分数交织在一起的信念效应。

But there's hope, because in fact, it would be great.

但还是有希望的，因为事实上，这会很棒。

I think that's possible, from the paper if you look at it, it's in PNAS this year, that you could detect subtle changes in the cortical EEG that might be able to tell you what the subcortical structures are doing.

我认为这是可能的，如果你看一下今年发表在 PNAS 上的论文，你可以检测到皮质脑电图的细微变化，这可能能够告诉你皮质下结构正在做什么。

Things like the absolute power in that sleep spindle band, that sigma band would change if the hippocampus is in REM sleep and the cortex is in that sleep spindle state and vise versa.

诸如睡眠纺锤波带的绝对功率之类的东西，如果海马体处于快速眼动睡眠并且皮层处于睡眠纺锤波状态，则西格玛带会发生变化，反之亦然。

So there is some hope that we can gain from people with depth electrodes or animals with depth electrodes that we could backwards machine learn what the cortex might be able to tell us about subcortical structures from the cortical EEG, so.

因此，我们有希望从带有深度电极的人或带有深度电极的动物身上获得一些希望，我们可以向后机器学习皮层可能能够从皮层脑电图告诉我们有关皮层下结构的信息，所以。

Earlier, you mentioned the washout of debris and the so-called lymphatic system, I think is what you're referring to.

早些时候，您提到了碎片的冲洗和所谓的淋巴系统，我想这就是您所指的。

Could you tell us a little bit more about the washout that occurs in the brain during sleep, what that is, and what roles it's thought to serve, and perhaps if there are any ways to ensure that it happens or to ensure that it doesn't happen, and obviously we want this to happen?

您能否告诉我们更多关于睡眠期间大脑中发生的冲洗的信息，它是什么，它被认为发挥什么作用，也许是否有任何方法可以确保它发生或确保它不会发生，显然我们希望这种情况发生？

It unfolds.

它展开了。

This process actually uses a lot of ATP, the power structure the fuel of the brain.

这个过程实际上使用了大量的ATP，这是大脑能量结构的燃料。

And it unfolds also proteins while we're doing this, while we're using them.

当我们这样做时，当我们使用蛋白质时，它也会展开蛋白质。

And so during that first part of the night, when we first fall asleep in the first 20 minutes or so, we're building that adenosine back into ATP.

因此，在夜晚的前半段，当我们在前 20 分钟左右第一次入睡时，我们正在将腺苷重新构建成 ATP。

And that's probably why power naps are called power naps, because we're actually rebuilding the power.

这可能就是为什么小睡被称为小睡，因为我们实际上是在重建能量。

And then we're also cleaning out through the deep slow waves of slow wave sleep.

然后我们还通过慢波睡眠的深层慢波进行清理。

We're cleaning out all those misfolded proteins, unfolded proteins, and other things that get broken down and need to be rebuilt when we're asleep because of its use during wakefulness.

我们正在清除所有错误折叠的蛋白质、未折叠的蛋白质以及其他在我们睡着时分解并需要重建的物质，因为它们在清醒时会被使用。

So I liken that to having a big party during wakefulness.

所以我把这比作在清醒时举办一场盛大的聚会。

And you need all those partygoers to leave in order to do the cleanup.

你需要所有参加聚会的人离开才能进行清理工作。

And so what I think the mechanism is, and this is still something to be tested, is actually slow waves themselves which is bad news for us as we get older.

所以我认为这个机制，而且还有待测试，实际上是慢波本身，随着年龄的增长，这对我们来说是个坏消息。

And those slow waves get smaller.

那些慢波变得更小。

And so your sleep goes away.

于是你的睡眠就消失了。

So what happens when a neuron is firing is that it expands, the membrane expands a little bit, becomes more translucent.

所以当神经元放电时会发生什么，它会扩张，膜会扩张一点，变得更加半透明。

That's how we know-- one of the ways we know that neurons expand when they fire.

这就是我们知道神经元放电时扩张的方式之一。

And so every action potential, the membrane expands a little bit, as sodium brings water into the cell.

因此，当钠将水带入细胞时，每出现一个动作电位，膜都会膨胀一点。

And then when they're silent, they contract.

然后当他们沉默时，他们就会收缩。

And so during slow waves, the cool thing is that the reason why you can measure them is that all the neurons at the same time-- not all of them but a good portion of them-- are firing at the same time and silent at the same time.

因此，在慢波期间，最酷的事情是，您可以测量它们的原因是所有神经元（不是全部，而是其中很大一部分）同时放电并同时保持沉默。

And so you think about that as contracting and expanding all at the same time.

所以你认为这是同时收缩和扩张的。

It's like a bilge pump of the brain.

它就像大脑的污水泵。

So that can pump out-- glia are also really important for this in terms of cleaning up debris and transferring it to where it needs to go.

这样就可以泵出——神经胶质细胞在清理碎片并将其转移到需要去的地方方面也非常重要。

So I think of it actually as a bilge pump cleaning out our brain.

所以我认为它实际上是一个清理我们大脑的舱底泵。

I thought that for some reason the cerebral spinal fluid just starts washing through.

我认为由于某种原因，脑脊液开始被冲走。

But here, you're talking about literally an expansion and a contraction of the neurons in unison and pushing the fluid through, cleaning out any misfolded proteins or debris that might occur on the basis of these metabolic pathways.

但在这里，您实际上谈论的是神经元的一致扩张和收缩，并推动液体通过，清除在这些代谢途径的基础上可能发生的任何错误折叠的蛋白质或碎片。

And the consequence of that is to, what, to leave the brain in a state of more pristine action for the next day.

这样做的结果就是，让大脑在第二天处于更原始的活动状态。

is?

是？

That right?

是吗？

They get very upset, because I think there are about 20% or 30% of people perhaps who really feel like they function better staying up late and waking up late.

他们会感到非常沮丧，因为我认为大约有 20% 或 30% 的人可能真的觉得自己熬夜和晚起的表现更好。

And they function much less well waking up early and going to bed early.

而且早起早睡的情况下，它们的功能要差得多。

But the data on health metrics suggests that, sorry night owls, that they are wrong.

但健康指标数据表明，对不起夜猫子们，他们错了。

But I do notice that when I force myself to get up a little earlier and go to sleep a little earlier, that my mood and alertness and just overall productivity is much higher.

但我确实注意到，当我强迫自己早点起床、早点睡觉时，我的情绪、警觉性以及整体生产力都会高得多。

And there could be other variables to that, too.

而且还可能存在其他变量。

So one good thing for night owls is to have a child, because they will wake you up.

所以对于夜猫子来说，一件好事就是生一个孩子，因为他们会叫醒你。

Their circadian rhythms are so strong.

他们的昼夜节律非常强。

They will wake up.

他们会醒来。

And even if you deprive them of sleep in the first half of the night they will still wake up like clockwork, because their circadian rhythms are so strong at 6:00 AM.

即使你剥夺他们前半夜的睡眠，他们仍然会准时醒来，因为他们的昼夜节律在早上 6:00 非常强烈。

And so what you've-- you haven't done anything good for your kid.

所以你没有为你的孩子做任何好事。

You haven't moved their cycle to later and be more in line with yours.

你还没有把他们的周期推迟到更晚，与你的周期更加一致。

In fact, you've just sleep deprived them and made them miss a window and made them cranky the next day and made your life more miserable.

事实上，你只是剥夺了他们的睡眠，让他们错过了窗户，让他们第二天脾气暴躁，让你的生活更加痛苦。

So go to bed soon after your kids go to bed and wake up with them.

因此，在您的孩子上床睡觉后尽快上床睡觉，并与他们一起醒来。

That's the way to do it.

这就是这样做的方法。

But what I started to learn was that Bulldogs actually have sleep apnea.

但我开始了解到，斗牛犬实际上患有睡眠呼吸暂停。

As far as I know, they're the only species that has a genetically-- they're essentially an inbred sleep defect.

据我所知，它们是唯一具有遗传性的物种——它们本质上是近交睡眠缺陷。

And so I actually don't encourage people to get bulldogs because it's kind of a cruel breed.

所以我实际上不鼓励人们养斗牛犬，因为它是一种残忍的品种。

They suffer a lot in that body that they're born into.

他们在出生时的身体里承受了很多痛苦。

Anyway, a dog can accomplish some of this.

无论如何，狗可以完成其中的一些任务。

But get the breed of dog that is going to wake up early.

但要养那种会早起的狗。

So in other words, don't get a bulldog or a mastiff.

换句话说，不要养斗牛犬或獒犬。

But yes, yeah, maybe we're not as much predators as we think because in fact, our sleep is somewhere between the prey and the predators in terms of the amount of sleep that we usually need a night.

但是，是的，是的，也许我们并不像我们想象的那样是掠食者，因为事实上，就我们通常每晚所需的睡眠量而言，我们的睡眠介于猎物和掠食者之间。

But those predators can sleep 16 hours, napping all day long.

但这些掠食者可以睡16个小时，整天打瞌睡。

And they're more crepuscular, perhaps, like their prey are, more--

他们更黄昏，也许，就像他们的猎物一样，更——

But the number one thing is pets.

但第一件事是宠物。

And pets needing to go out or cats wanting to curl up with you or whatever it is, pets' needs will wake you up more in the middle of the night than anything else.

宠物需要出去，或者猫想和你一起蜷缩起来，或者无论什么，宠物的需求会比其他任何事情都更容易在半夜叫醒你。

I appreciate that vote.

我很感谢那次投票。

And I appreciate you mentioning ferrets.

我很感激你提到雪貂。

And by the way, folks, they are carnivores.

顺便说一句，伙计们，他们是肉食动物。

They are not rodents.

它们不是啮齿动物。

And they are-- they have very elaborate brain structures.

他们有非常复杂的大脑结构。

They're very smart, in the same family as the honey badgers and the other mustelids.

它们非常聪明，与蜜獾和其他鼬科动物属于同一家族。

Anyway, I shouldn't geek out too much on the mustelids or else I'll take the remainder of all our time.

不管怎样，我不应该对鼬科动物太过痴迷，否则我会占用我们剩下的时间。

I'd love for you to tell us about REM sleep and the sleep later in the night as it relates to dreams and emotionality.

我希望您能告诉我们有关快速眼动睡眠和深夜睡眠的信息，因为它与梦和情绪有关。

And this is probably the appropriate time for you to introduce us to this incredible structure in the brain, which is the locus coeruleus a difficult structure to spell but a beautiful-- a beautifully named structure.

现在可能是您向我们介绍大脑中这个令人难以置信的结构的适当时机，这就是蓝斑，这是一个很难拼写的结构，但却是一个美丽的结构，一个名字很漂亮的结构。

I find locus coeruleus to be just fascinating.

我发现蓝斑非常迷人。

And I know a small fraction of what it does.

我只知道它的一小部分作用。

And I'm hoping you're going to educate me and our audience more about what it does and hopefully tell us a little bit about its relationship to epinephrine a.k.a.

我希望你能向我和我们的观众更多地介绍它的作用，并希望告诉我们一些它与肾上腺素（又称肾上腺素）的关系。

adrenaline.

肾上腺素。

So the local coeruleus is filled with neurons that have in them norepinephrine which is the brain's version of epinephrine or adrenaline, is also called noradrenaline.

因此，局部蓝斑充满了含有去甲肾上腺素的神经元，去甲肾上腺素是大脑版本的肾上腺素或肾上腺素，也称为去甲肾上腺素。

And what it does is, just like adrenaline and the rest of our bodies, it helps prime us to respond to our environment.

它的作用是，就像肾上腺素和我们身体的其他部分一样，它有助于我们对环境做出反应。

So when locus coeruleus neurons fire and fire in a burst, we can switch our attention.

因此，当蓝斑神经元突然放电时，我们可以转移注意力。

And they will fire in a burst if, for example, a loud noise happens in the middle of your concentrating on something.

例如，如果您在全神贯注于某件事时发出巨大的噪音，它们就会突然放电。

So you can-- it helps-- it fires.

所以你可以——这有帮助——它会燃烧。

And it helps you switch your attention to that thing and then learn quickly from it.

它可以帮助你将注意力转移到那件事上，然后从中快速学习。

So it's really important in a stress response.

所以这对于压力反应来说非常重要。

It helps us do quick one trial learning.

它可以帮助我们快速进行一次尝试学习。

And then tonic activity during the day when you're just doing normal going about your normal concentration activities is really good for sustained attention.

然后，当你在白天进行正常的集中注意力活动时，进行补品活动对于持续注意力确实有好处。

It works with the cholinergic system of our basal forebrain which is really important for learning and memory also to help us learn about things and put things together.

它与我们的基底前脑的胆碱能系统一起工作，这对于学习和记忆非常重要，也可以帮助我们学习事物并将事物组合在一起。

But just tonic levels are signature of wakefulness and alertness.

但进补水平才是清醒和警觉的标志。

So too much is panic with a locus coeruleus activity.

因此，蓝斑活动引起的恐慌太多了。

A burst is switching attention.

突发正在转移注意力。

And then tonic levels are sustained constant attention.

然后进补的水平是持续不断的关注。

And then when we go to sleep, the locus coeruleus slows and goes from about on average two Hertz to about one Hertz, one cycle per second, tonically.

然后，当我们入睡时，蓝斑速度减慢，从大约平均 2 赫兹变为大约 1 赫兹，每秒一个周期，强直。

And then when we go into REM sleep, it's the only time when it shuts off completely.

然后当我们进入快速眼动睡眠时，这是它完全关闭的唯一一次。

And it appears that, that complete silence is really, really important for a number of things.

看来，完全的沉默对于很多事情来说真的非常重要。

And the main thing that I think it's important for is the ability to erase and break down synapses that are no longer working for us.

我认为最重要的是能够擦除和分解不再为我们工作的突触。

So they encode things that are false now, or they are encoding things that we learned in the novelty, encoding pathway of our brain that have now been consolidated to other pathways.

因此，它们对现在错误的东西进行编码，或者它们对我们在新奇事物中学到的东西进行编码，编码我们大脑的通路，这些通路现在已经被整合到其他通路中。

And so we need to now erase them from the novelty encoding pathway.

所以我们现在需要将它们从新奇编码路径中删除。

And that is really, really important for being able to continue to learn things all of our lives, so like erasing that REM or that-- what you call those, disks that you stick into computers that--

这对于我们能够在一生中继续学习东西来说真的非常重要，所以就像擦除 REM 或那个 - 你所说的那些，你粘贴到计算机上的磁盘 -

And that's what happens during REM sleep when the locus coeruleus is off, because whenever it's on and noradrenaline is there, it helps us to put things together.

这就是在快速眼动睡眠期间蓝斑关闭时发生的情况，因为每当它打开并且去甲肾上腺素存在时，它就会帮助我们把事情整合在一起。

It helps us to learn and strengthen synapses.

它帮助我们学习和强化突触。

But it does not allow us to actually weaken synapses that are also a really important part for life-- important part of lifelong learning.

但它并不能让我们真正削弱突触，而突触也是生命中非常重要的一部分——终身学习的重要组成部分。

Yeah, so much more I could say about that.

是的，对此我还可以说很多。

So yeah, so dopamine, norepinephrine, and then there's also galanin which is important for releasing when we're stressed.

是的，多巴胺、去甲肾上腺素，还有甘丙肽，当我们有压力时，甘丙肽的释放很重要。

And it helps also without rapid learning.

即使不需要快速学习，它也有帮助。

It works in concert with norepinephrine and in doing what it needs to do to strengthen synapses so that we learn really quickly.

它与去甲肾上腺素协同工作，并做它需要做的事情来加强突触，以便我们学得很快。

And so when I was going through grad school 35 years ago, we-- the dogma was that every neuron contains one neurotransmitter and releases one neurotransmitter.

因此，35 年前，当我读研究生时，我们的教条是每个神经元都包含一种神经递质并释放一种神经递质。

And you had excitatory neurotransmitters, and inhibitory neurotransmitters, and neuro-- modulatory neurotransmitters.

你有兴奋性神经递质、抑制性神经递质和神经调节性神经递质。

But that's as complicated as it's got.

但这确实很复杂。

And then we started talking about neuropeptides.

然后我们开始谈论神经肽。

And people said, oh, no, please don't complicate it.

人们说，哦，不，请不要让事情复杂化。

And then we started talking about how neurons contain both neuropeptides and neurotransmitters and maybe more than one neurotransmitter--

然后我们开始讨论神经元如何包含神经肽和神经递质，甚至可能不止一种神经递质——

And when you measure norepinephrine levels from metabolites in the blood or the cerebrospinal fluid, you see that people with PTSD, it's during the wee hours of the morning when you have the most REM sleep that they have their norepinephrine levels differentiate most from those that don't have PTSD.

当你测量血液或脑脊液中代谢物的去甲肾上腺素水平时，你会发现患有 PTSD 的人，在凌晨快速眼动睡眠时间最多的时候，他们的去甲肾上腺素水平与那些没有 PTSD 的人差异最大。

And so that's evidence that the locus coeruleus is not shutting down during REM sleep like it should.

这证明蓝斑在快速眼动睡眠期间并没有像它应该的那样关闭。

Other evidence is heart rate variability.

其他证据是心率变异性。

When our locus coeruleus is firing, our heart rates are generally a little higher.

当我们的蓝斑放电时，我们的心率通常会稍高一些。

And they don't vary as much as they do when the locus coeruleus is not firing.

而且它们的变化不会像蓝斑未放电时那么大。

So during slow wave sleep, normally, have this big, juicy variability in heart rate with every breath in and breath out because our noradrenergic levels or norepinephrine levels are lower during REM sleep that goes away entirely.

因此，在慢波睡眠期间，通常情况下，每次吸气和呼气时心率都有很大的变化，因为在快速眼动睡眠期间我们的去甲肾上腺素能水平或去甲肾上腺素水平较低，并且完全消失。

And our heart rate is dominated by parasympathetic rather than sympathetic activity and also what our brain is driving, what our dreaming about.

我们的心率受副交感神经活动而非交感神经活动的支配，也受我们大脑的驱动、我们的梦想的影响。

For example, if we're dreaming we're running, our heart rates will go up.

例如，如果我们梦见自己正在跑步，我们的心率就会上升。

But norepinephrine levels still should be low or off.

但去甲肾上腺素水平仍然较低或较低。

So people with PTSD that noradrenergic's we're studying these in rats, too, is it true that our locus coeruleus doesn't shut off when we have post-traumatic stress disorder?

那么，患有创伤后应激障碍（PTSD）的人，我们也在老鼠身上进行了研究，当我们患有创伤后应激障碍时，我们的蓝斑真的不会关闭吗？

And the preliminary evidence is yes, it's true that it doesn't shut off.

初步证据是肯定的，它确实不会关闭。

So what that would do is norepinephrine would act at synapses to prevent that weakening that you really need for example of novelty encoding structures.

因此，去甲肾上腺素会作用于突触，以防止你真正需要的削弱，例如新颖的编码结构。

And it keeps memories in that novelty encoding structure even once it's consolidated to the rest of the brain.

即使记忆被巩固到大脑的其他部分，它也会将记忆保留在新奇的编码结构中。

So in the hippocampus which is important for remembering things throughout our lives and it's that thumb drive, we need it to be erased so that we can learn new things once it's been consolidated to the hard drive of our cortex.

因此，在海马体中，它对于我们一生中记住事物非常重要，它就是拇指驱动器，我们需要将其擦除，以便一旦它被巩固到我们皮层的硬盘驱动器上，我们就可以学习新事物。

And so if we're not able to do that, we fill up that RAM really quickly or that thumb drive really quickly, and we're not able to learn new things.

因此，如果我们做不到这一点，我们的内存或拇指驱动器就会很快被填满，我们就无法学习新东西。

So for example, after a trauma, I talked about the locus coeruleus responding in stressful situations.

例如，在创伤后，我谈到了蓝斑在压力情况下的反应。

That's great.

那太棒了。

It's very adaptive.

它的适应性很强。

But then you need it to stop.

但随后你需要它停止。

Once you've learned what you need to learn from it and you want to go to sleep, you need the locus coeruleus to calm down.

一旦你学会了你需要从中学习的东西并且你想睡觉，你就需要蓝斑来平静下来。

And during REM sleep, you want it to stop, because then when you consolidated that traumatic memory to the cortex, you need to erase it from the novelty encoding structures, for example, in the hippocampus so that then when you're in the context of safety, you can learn those new things, those new contexts and stop responding to those same stimuli as though you're in that original situation.

在快速眼动睡眠期间，你希望它停止，因为当你将创伤记忆巩固到皮层时，你需要将其从新奇的编码结构中删除，例如，在海马体中，这样当你处于安全的环境中时，你可以学习那些新的东西，那些新的环境，并停止对那些相同的刺激做出反应，就好像你处于原来的情况一样。

So if you're not able to erase that thumb drive, you will always feel like that trauma happened that same day, earlier that same day and respond as you would to an early-- a recent trauma which is with beating heart and all of that.

因此，如果您无法擦除该拇指驱动器，您总是会感觉创伤发生在同一天，同一天早些时候，并且像您对早期创伤一样做出反应 - 最近的创伤，伴随着心脏跳动等等。

So even memories that are years past, if you're never able to downscale that novelty encoding structure and purge it from that traumatic memory, it will stay fresh, and new, and then become maladaptive.

因此，即使是过去几年的记忆，如果你永远无法缩小新奇的编码结构并将其从创伤性记忆中清除，它也会保持新鲜感，然后变得适应不良。

One major challenge with blood work, however, is that most of the time it does not come back with any information about what to do in order to move the values for hormones, metabolic factors, lipids, et cetera into the ranges that you want.

然而，血液检查的一个主要挑战是，大多数时候，它不会返回任何关于如何将激素、代谢因子、血脂等值调整到您想要的范围内的信息。

With Inside Tracker, changing those values becomes very straightforward because it has a personalized dashboard that you can use to address the nutrition based, behavior based, supplement based approaches that you can use in order to move those values into the ranges that are optimal for you, your vitality, and your longevity.

有了 Inside Tracker，改变这些价值观变得非常简单，因为它有一个个性化的仪表板，您可以使用它来解决基于营养、基于行为、基于补充剂的方法，您可以使用这些方法将这些价值观移至最适合您、您的活力和寿命的范围。

Inside Tracker now includes a measurement of apolipoprotein B, so-called ApoB, and their ultimate plan.

Inside Tracker 现在包括载脂蛋白 B（即 ApoB）的测量以及他们的最终计划。

ApoB is a key marker of cardiovascular health.

ApoB 是心血管健康的关键标志物。

And therefore, there's extreme value to knowing your ApoB levels.

因此，了解您的 ApoB 水平具有极高的价值。

If you'd like to try Inside Tracker, you can go to insidetracker.com/huberman to get 20% off any of Inside Trackers plans.

如果您想尝试 Inside Tracker，您可以访问 insidetracker.com/huberman，享受任何 Inside Trackers 计划 20% 的折扣。

Again, that's insidetracker.com/huberman to get 20% off.

同样，在 insidetracker.com/huberman 上可以获得 20% 的折扣。

What approaches are you aware of that can turn down the output of locus coeruleus during these phases of sleep?

您知道哪些方法可以在这些睡眠阶段降低蓝斑的输出？

And for that matter, what things can cause ramping up of locus coeruleus during this phase of sleep?

就此而言，什么因素会导致睡眠阶段蓝斑的增加？

We've had a couple of podcast episodes, solo episodes and with guests talking about trauma.

我们有一些播客节目、个人节目以及与嘉宾谈论创伤的节目。

We had Dr. Paul Conti who's a Stanford trained, Harvard trained psychiatrist who talked a lot about trauma wrote an excellent book on trauma and certainly sleep was emphasized as a key thing like get enough sleep.

我们有保罗·孔蒂博士，他是斯坦福大学和哈佛大学训练有素的精神病学家，他谈论了很多关于创伤的内容，写了一本关于创伤的优秀书，当然，睡眠被强调为像获得充足睡眠一样的关键因素。

But here, you're saying even if somebody with trauma gets enough sleep, if locus coeruleus is hyperactive during sleep, those traumas are going to persist.

但在这里，你是说，即使患有创伤的人有足够的睡眠，如果蓝斑在睡眠期间过度活跃，这些创伤就会持续存在。

And most of the trauma treatments that I'm aware of are everything ranging from cognitive behavioral therapy, talk therapy, drug therapy, EMDR, hypnosis.

我所知道的大多数创伤治疗方法包括认知行为疗法、谈话疗法、药物疗法、EMDR、催眠等。

Nowadays, there's a lot of interest and attention on clinical studies on exploring psychedelics, high dose psilocybin, and MDMA.

如今，人们对探索迷幻药、大剂量裸盖菇素和 MDMA 的临床研究产生了很大的兴趣和关注。

So it's a vast landscape, none of which, as far as I know, is really focused on sleep specifically.

所以这是一个广阔的领域，据我所知，没有一个领域真正专门关注睡眠。

So antidepressants are often noradrenergic or serotonergic reuptake inhibitors.

因此，抗抑郁药通常是去甲肾上腺素能或血清素再摄取抑制剂。

So they leave norepinephrine actually out there in the synapses.

所以他们实际上把去甲肾上腺素留在了突触中。

And what that does is it inhibits REM sleep.

它的作用是抑制快速眼动睡眠。

And if you're able to get REM sleep, it would probably be REM sleep with some noradrenergic activity.

如果您能够获得快速眼动睡眠，则可能是伴有一些去甲肾上腺素能活动的快速眼动睡眠。

So actually, I think-- anyway, I'm not a physician-- that antidepressants are counter indicated.

所以实际上，我认为——无论如何，我不是医生——抗抑郁药是相反的。

You don't want to take them if you've experienced a trauma and you're experiencing PTSD, because if anything, it's going to make it worse or at least prevent the type of adaptive REM sleep that you really need in order to resolve those emotions and move on.

如果你经历过创伤并且正在经历创伤后应激障碍（PTSD），你就不想服用它们，因为如果有的话，它会让情况变得更糟，或者至少会阻止你真正需要的适应性快速眼动睡眠类型，以解决这些情绪并继续前进。

And what serotonin does is it weights all of our cognition to being able to recognize novelty again.

血清素的作用是让我们所有的认知能力重新能够识别新奇事物。

So it weights our brain away from a sense of familiarity and toward novelty.

因此，它使我们的大脑远离熟悉感而转向新奇感。

And it might be one reason why it's an effective antidepressant because it makes the world feel fresh and new again, right?

这可能是它成为有效抗抑郁药的原因之一，因为它让世界再次感觉新鲜，对吧？

But you-- when you have too much, you're holding a novel traumatic memory in your novelty encoding structure too strongly already, you don't want to, again, weight things toward novelty.

但是当你拥有太多的东西时，你在新奇编码结构中已经过分强烈地保留了新奇的创伤记忆，你不想再次将事物权重偏向新奇。

You need that absence of serotonin also to help you get that sense of familiarity and to start erasing the novelty encoding structures.

你也需要血清素的缺失来帮助你获得熟悉感并开始消除新奇的编码结构。

So you need both to be absent.

所以你们都需要缺席。

And what you just described cues me to something that Dr. Paul Conti and others have said in terms of trauma.

你刚才的描述让我想起了保罗·孔蒂博士和其他人在创伤方面所说的话。

And here, I'm paraphrasing, so my apologies to them for not getting this exactly right, that an effective treatment for trauma does not erase the traumatic memory.

在这里，我要解释一下，所以我对他们没有完全正确地表达歉意，即有效的创伤治疗并不能消除创伤记忆。

But it causes a transition of what once was disturbing, and invasive, and maladaptive to eventually just become a boring old story that has a fuzzy texture to it as opposed to this sharp high friction texture that invades our thinking and obviously, our sleeping states as well.

但它导致了曾经令人不安、具有侵略性和适应不良的转变，最终变成了一个无聊的老故事，它具有模糊的质感，而不是这种尖锐的高摩擦质感，它侵入了我们的思维，显然也侵入了我们的睡眠状态。

So again, and I appreciate the disclaimer, the caveats around not being a clinician, et cetera.

再说一次，我很欣赏免责声明、关于不是临床医生的警告等等。

But I do think that there's a lot of interest now in whether or not antidepressants are effective for trauma or not.

但我确实认为，现在人们对抗抑郁药是否对创伤有效感兴趣。

And I think these aspects of neuromodulation as they relate to, let's call it, erasing traumas or changing the emotional load of traumas during sleep is something important to take note.

我认为神经调节的这些方面与消除创伤或改变睡眠期间创伤的情绪负荷有关，这是值得注意的重要事情。

We also have a lot of clinicians that listen to this podcast.

我们还有很多临床医生收听这个播客。

So they should also take note, please.

所以他们也应该注意。

So if I want to reduce the amount of norepinephrine released from locus coeruleus during rapid eye movement sleep to eliminate the troubling or maybe even traumatic memories and allow late stages of sleep each night to have their maximum positive effect, is there anything that I can do besides avoiding-- avoiding traumas, avoiding serotonergic or noradrenergic compounds?

因此，如果我想减少快速眼动睡眠期间蓝斑释放的去甲肾上腺素的量，以消除令人不安的甚至创伤性的记忆，并让每晚的睡眠后期发挥最大的积极作用，除了避免外伤、避免血清素或去甲肾上腺素能化合物之外，我还能做些什么吗？

And we haven't been able to test this with rats because we can't ask them to do a deep breathing exercise.

我们还无法用老鼠进行测试，因为我们无法要求它们进行深呼吸练习。

There might be a way we can do that.

也许有一种方法我们可以做到这一点。

But I haven't found out or figured it out yet.

但我还没有发现或弄清楚。

But if there's a way you can make your sympathetic system, nervous system calm down before you go to sleep, might free for you meditation, or deep breathing exercises might be for some, a warm bath, or a comforting book, nothing too exciting but also nothing too boring, perhaps, just something right in the middle which makes you feel happy and calm is what you should do.

但如果有一种方法可以让你的交感系统、神经系统在你入睡前平静下来，也许可以让你自由地冥想，或者深呼吸练习可能适合某些人，洗个热水澡，或者读一本令人安慰的书，没有什么太令人兴奋的，但也没有太无聊的，也许，只是在中间让你感到快乐和平静的事情才是你应该做的。

And if you instead go to sleep while you're anxious or you're hyped up, then your sleep could become maladaptive.

如果你在焦虑或亢奋时入睡，那么你的睡眠可能会变得不适应。

Another thing that happens in rats that we have yet to know if it happens in women is that female rats have three phases of their estrus cycle that their locus coeruleus doesn't seem to calm down during REM sleep as much.

另一件发生在老鼠身上的事情我们还不知道它是否发生在女性身上，那就是雌性老鼠的发情周期有三个阶段，它们的蓝斑在快速眼动睡眠期间似乎并没有那么平静。

And we don't know why, but during the high estrogen phases of their estrus cycle, the locus coeruleus shuts down just like it does in male rats.

我们不知道为什么，但在发情周期的高雌激素阶段，蓝斑会像雄性老鼠一样关闭。

But in the other three phases, it doesn't.

但在其他三个阶段则不然。

So one thing that might work and in fact, there are a few studies that show it could work really well is giving women after a trauma event, something that contains estrogen, because estrogen somehow is protective against PTSD.

因此，一件事可能有效，事实上，有一些研究表明它可能非常有效，那就是在创伤事件后给女性服用含有雌激素的东西，因为雌激素在某种程度上可以预防创伤后应激障碍。

And they know that through a retrospective studies, where they gave women in emergency room either a pill with estrogen and/or without.

他们知道，通过一项回顾性研究，他们给急诊室的女性服用含有雌激素和/或不含雌激素的药丸。

And those that had the pill with estrogen in it were much less likely to get PTSD from that trauma as measured a year later than those that had the pill without.

一年后测量，那些服用含有雌激素的药物的人比那些没有服用药物的人因创伤而患上创伤后应激障碍的可能性要小得多。

So there's really good studies by Bronwyn Graham-- she's out of Australia-- to really hone in on how much estrogen do you need and also testosterone just so you know, gets converted to estrogen in the brain.

因此，来自澳大利亚的布朗温·格雷厄姆（Bronwyn Graham）进行了非常好的研究，旨在真正了解您需要多少雌激素以及睾酮，以便您知道，在大脑中转化为雌激素。

So testosterone also can be protective, because it gets converted to estrogen.

因此睾酮也可以起到保护作用，因为它会转化为雌激素。

But there's something about estrogen that's really helpful and protective about from the high locus coeruleus firing.

但雌激素确实对蓝斑核高放电有帮助和保护作用。

And this is, again, preliminary data that we don't have full-- we don't have all the answers yet.

这又是我们没有完整的初步数据——我们还没有所有的答案。

And we are looking into it actively right now.

我们现在正在积极研究它。

But it's really important.

但这确实很重要。

The other thing about women is that we are two to four times more susceptible to anxiety related mental health disorders including post-traumatic stress disorder.

关于女性的另一件事是，我们患焦虑相关心理健康障碍（包括创伤后应激障碍）的可能性是女性的两到四倍。

So if we could figure out what's happening to locus coeruleus during sleep in women and then figure out a way to normalize that so the locus coeruleus is silent when it needs to be silent, I think we could go a long way in helping women be more resilient to stress related disorders.

因此，如果我们能够弄清楚女性睡眠期间蓝斑发生了什么，然后找到一种方法使其正常化，以便蓝斑在需要保持沉默时保持沉默，我认为我们可以在帮助女性更好地应对压力相关疾病方面大有帮助。

So that sleep is more dense in those sleep spindles, which I haven't gone into what they might do except this connection between the hippocampus and cortex.

因此，这些睡眠纺锤波的睡眠更加密集，除了海马体和皮质之间的联系之外，我还没有研究它们可能会做什么。

But those sleep spindles are more dense and more coherent across the brain areas.

但这些睡眠纺锤波在大脑区域更密集、更连贯。

The theta cycle which is 5 to 10 Hertz in the hippocampus important for one-year learning and also important during REM sleep is also bigger and juicier during the high hormonal phases.

海马体中的 θ 周期为 5 至 10 赫兹，对于一年的学习很重要，在快速眼动睡眠期间也很重要，在高荷尔蒙阶段也更大、更丰富。

So even though there's less sleep, it's more efficient and better.

因此，尽管睡眠时间较少，但效率更高、效果更好。

So all of that efficiency seems to be reduced in those other hormonal phases.

因此，所有其他荷尔蒙阶段的效率似乎都会降低。

So even though you might sleep a little more, you might need more sleep, in fact, in order to accomplish the same thing that you can get with that short very efficient sleep of high hormonal phases.

因此，尽管您可能会多睡一点，但实际上您可能需要更多的睡眠，才能完成与高荷尔蒙阶段短暂且高效的睡眠所获得的相同效果。

Hormones can definitely change who we are and what we do.

荷尔蒙绝对可以改变我们的身份和行为。

So we should be studying hormones not just sex.

所以我们应该研究激素而不仅仅是性。

I'm very happy that you mentioned-- I'm trying to get into calmer states prior to sleep and some ways to do that.

我很高兴你提到——我正在努力在睡觉前进入更平静的状态，以及一些方法来做到这一点。

I'm a big fan and I've talked a lot before on this podcast about things like yoga nidra which is a non-movement based practice, sometimes called non-sleep depressed where people actually take some time each day to practice how to go into a more parasympathetic a.k.a relaxed state deliberately, because it's a bit of a skill.

我是一个超级粉丝，我之前在这个播客上谈过很多关于瑜伽休息术之类的事情，这是一种非运动练习，有时被称为非睡眠抑郁症，人们实际上每天花一些时间练习如何故意进入更副交感神经，又称放松状态，因为这是一种技巧。

And it does seem to restore a certain number of features of neurochemistry.

它似乎确实恢复了神经化学的某些特征。

But perhaps more importantly, it teaches people to relax which is something that most people are not very good at.

但也许更重要的是，它教会人们放松，而这是大多数人不太擅长的事情。

But in any event-- and people who listen to this podcast have heard me say this over and over again, so I sound like a broken record, but this practice as a zero cost practice that doesn't require any pharmacology does seem to really enhance people's ability to fall asleep more quickly and to fall back asleep if they wake up in the middle of the night.

但无论如何——听这个播客的人一遍又一遍地听我说这句话，所以我听起来像是破纪录的，但这种不需要任何药理学的零成本实践似乎确实增强了人们更快入睡的能力，并且在半夜醒来时重新入睡的能力。

So in any event, another plug for NSDR, yoga nidra.

所以无论如何，NSDR 的另一个插件，瑜伽休息术。

You mentioned yoga nidra.

你提到了瑜伽休息术。

And that reminded me of transcendental meditation which is something that also hasn't been studied well, largely because we can't ask nonhuman animals to do it.

这让我想起了超验冥想，这种冥想还没有得到很好的研究，主要是因为我们不能要求非人类动物这样做。

And so we don't know what's happening with our neurochemistry and our brain activity in a deep and meaningful way.

因此，我们不知道我们的神经化学和大脑活动以深刻而有意义的方式发生了什么。

But one thing that has been shown in those that can do it really well is that, that theta activity that I said happens when you're learning something or when you're in REM sleep, it's well established and increases during the transcendental meditation.

但在那些能做得很好的人身上已经显示出的一件事是，我所说的 theta 活动发生在你学习某些东西或当你处于快速眼动睡眠时，它已经得到很好的确立，并且在超验冥想期间会增加。

So it might be that some states of meditation could in some ways replace or mimic some functions of, for example, REM sleep.

因此，某些冥想状态可能会以某种方式取代或模仿快速眼动睡眠等的某些功能。

But again, we don't know if all the neurochemistry is right to do, for example, the thing that I was talking about, which is erasing the novelty encoding structures of the brain.

但同样，我们不知道所有的神经化学是否都正确，例如，我正在谈论的事情，即擦除大脑的新奇编码结构。

That needs an absence of norepinephrine and serotonin, which we don't know if that goes away with transcendental meditation.

这需要去甲肾上腺素和血清素的缺失，我们不知道这是否会随着超验冥想而消失。

We just don't know the answer to that yet.

我们只是还不知道答案。

But it's simply not the case.

但事实并非如此。

These are practices that are really just self-directed relaxation as a practice that allows people to get better and better at directing their brain states towards more relaxation.

这些练习实际上只是自我导向的放松，可以让人们越来越好地引导他们的大脑状态更加放松。

And most people have an asymmetry.

大多数人都有不对称性。

Like for instance, most people can force themselves to stay up later.

例如，大多数人可以强迫自己熬夜。

But they have a hard time going to sleep earlier.

但他们很难早点入睡。

And that just speaks to the asymmetry that's probably adaptive in survival-based that we can ramp ourselves up far more easily than we can tend to calm ourselves down.

这恰恰说明了一种不对称性，这种不对称性可能是基于生存的适应性，我们可以更容易地提升自己，而不是让自己冷静下来。

But NSDR has no intentions.

但 NSDR 无意。

It's simply a body scan deep relaxation-based.

这只是基于深度放松的身体扫描。

So it's the scientific version of all of this stuff.

所以这是所有这些东西的科学版本。

And actually, we study it in the laboratory and some of the brain states that people go into.

实际上，我们在实验室中研究了人们进入的一些大脑状态。

But that's a discussion for another time.

但这是另一次讨论的事了。

And so I think all of these things converge on a common theme.

所以我认为所有这些事情都集中在一个共同的主题上。

As neurobiologist, we can say, all of the things that we are describing certainly move the needle away from locus coeruleus activation.

作为神经生物学家，我们可以说，我们所描述的所有事情肯定会偏离蓝斑激活。

And we haven't done the experiment to really look at that.

我们还没有做过实验来真正了解这一点。

But it seems all these things are counter to noradrenaline release.

但似乎所有这些事情都与去甲肾上腺素的释放相反。

Actually, animals yawn, too.

事实上，动物也会打哈欠。

I'd love for you to share with us a little bit more about the spindles that have come up a few times.

我希望您能与我们分享更多关于已经出现过几次的主轴的信息。

And I don't know if it's relevant to this.

而且我不知道这是否与此相关。

So if it's not, let's separate it out.

所以，如果不是，我们就将其分开。

But I'd love for you to tell us a little bit about the role of sleep in problem solving and creativity.

但我希望您能告诉我们一些关于睡眠在解决问题和创造力方面的作用。

And if spindles are involved, then I'll consider myself lucky for batching them in the same question.

如果涉及到主轴，那么我会认为自己很幸运能够在同一问题中对它们进行批处理。

And if they're not involved, simply feel free to separate them out.

如果他们不参与，请随意将他们分开。

But now, we know that the density of our sleep spindles, the number that we produce per minute is well correlated with our intelligence in the first place and that no matter what your intelligence is and no matter what your sleep spindle density is, if you're learning something during the day and increase your sleep spindle density, it's really almost perfectly correlated with our ability to consolidate that information and incorporate it into the schema that we already have in our brain.

但现在，我们知道，我们的睡眠纺锤波的密度，即我们每分钟产生的数量，首先与我们的智力密切相关，无论你的智力如何，无论你的睡眠纺锤波密度是多少，如果你在白天学习一些东西并增加睡眠纺锤波密度，它实际上与我们巩固这些信息并将其纳入我们大脑中已有模式的能力几乎完全相关。

So if you try and learn something new, even if your sleep spindle density at baseline is great, if you don't increase your sleep spindles that night, you're not going to use sleep to really incorporate.

因此，如果你尝试学习新东西，即使你的基线睡眠纺锤波密度很好，如果你那天晚上不增加睡眠纺锤波，你就不会利用睡眠来真正融入。

Interestingly, sleep spindles are poor in those with schizophrenia.

有趣的是，精神分裂症患者的睡眠纺锤波较差。

It's one of the characteristic signatures of sleep is that sleep spindles are very few and far between, which might mean that people with schizophrenia might not be able to incorporate new information into already existing schema.

睡眠的特征之一是睡眠纺锤波非常少且间隔很远，这可能意味着精神分裂症患者可能无法将新信息纳入现有的模式中。

And instead, it flaps in the breeze out there and can be accessed erroneously at times when you don't want it to be involved.

相反，它在微风中飘扬，当您不希望它参与其中时，有时可能会被错误地访问。

So I digress, so sleep spindles and creativity.

所以我离题了，所以睡眠主轴和创造力。

So one of the things we now through some great studies by Julie Seibt and Anita Lüthi is that sleep spindles are accompanied by an incredible plasticity out in the distal dendrites, the listening branches of our neurons that listen to other cortical areas.

因此，我们现在通过 Julie Seibt 和 Anita Lüthi 的一些伟大研究发现，睡眠纺锤波伴随着远端树突令人难以置信的可塑性，远端树突是我们神经元的聆听分支，负责聆听其他皮质区域。

So there are proximal dendrites in our neurons that listen to the external world and are conducted through the thalamus.

因此，我们的神经元中有近端树突，它们聆听外部世界并通过丘脑进行传导。

And then there are distal dendrites which listen to an internal conversation that's happening in our brains.

然后是远端树突，它们监听我们大脑中发生的内部对话。

It's kind of our internal state, really.

这确实是我们的内部状态。

And during sleep spindles, that's when those distal dendrites are able to best learn from other cortical areas and from the hippocampus.

在睡眠纺锤波期间，远端树突能够最好地从其他皮质区域和海马体学习。

It is during sleep spindles that the hippocampus and the cortex are best connected and when that incredible plasticity can happen.

在睡眠纺锤波期间，海马体和皮质连接得最好，此时令人难以置信的可塑性就会发生。

When I talk about schema, that's a cortical, cortical thing.

当我谈论图式时，这是一个皮质的东西。

That's when the image of Santa Claus and presents comes together.

这就是圣诞老人和礼物的形象结合在一起的时候。

It's not through some external thing.

这不是通过一些外部事物。

Once we learn those things together, it's our cortex that encodes that and brings those images back up together.

一旦我们一起学习这些东西，我们的大脑皮层就会对其进行编码并将这些图像重新组合在一起。

And that's during sleep spindles when that's happening, when that-- there's big surges of calcium into those distal dendrites, and where plasticity happens in just huge amounts.

那是在睡眠纺锤波期间，当这种情况发生时，钙大量涌入那些远端树突，并且可塑性发生大量。

During that sleep spindle stage of sleep which is N2 stage, there's also another excitatory event that comes all the way from the brainstem and projects everywhere in our cortex which is called PGO waves.

在睡眠的睡眠纺锤阶段，即 N2 阶段，还有另一种兴奋事件，它从脑干一路传来，投射到我们皮质的各处，称为 PGO 波。

That's P for pons, G for geniculo nucleus of the thalamus which is where they're first discovered, and O for occipital area which is our visual area which is, again, where they're first discovered.

P 代表脑桥，G 代表丘脑膝核，这是它们首次被发现的地方，O 代表枕叶区域，这是我们的视觉区域，这也是它们第一次被发现的地方。

But in fact, it's now been shown that PGO waves, which we should generalize to P waves because they come from the pons and go to the thalamus and then the cortex, happens all over the brains.

但事实上，现在已经证明，PGO 波（我们应该将其概括为 P 波）因为它们来自脑桥，到达丘脑，然后到达皮质，发生在整个大脑中。

And that is where glutamate, which is a major excitatory neurotransmitter involved in learning and plasticity is being released in big amounts, also in those distal dendrites.

这就是谷氨酸（一种参与学习和可塑性的主要兴奋性神经递质）大量释放的地方，也在那些远端树突中。

So P waves and spindles work together to cause plasticity and sew our schema together which could be the origins for insight and creativity.

因此，P 波和主轴共同作用，产生可塑性，并将我们的图式缝合在一起，这可能是洞察力和创造力的起源。

Now, when PGO waves or P waves were first discovered, it was thought to be random, because this small area that generates P waves all over the brain projects all over the thalamus and causes P waves all over.

现在，当PGO波或P波第一次被发现时，它被认为是随机的，因为这个在整个大脑中产生P波的小区域投射到整个丘脑并在整个丘脑中产生P波。

And you don't measure P waves all over the brain at the same time.

而且您不会同时测量整个大脑的 P 波。

In fact, it's just seems sporadic and random.

事实上，它看起来只是零星的和随机的。

So that's probably-- and P waves also happening even more during REM sleep, rapid eye movement sleep.

所以这很可能是——并且 P 波在快速眼动睡眠（快速眼动睡眠）期间也发生得更多。

So that's why people think that REM dreams are so random is because these P waves are random.

这就是为什么人们认为 REM 梦是如此随机，因为这些 P 波是随机的。

And they could generate dreams because they're an internal source of excitation that replaces the outside world during our dream state.

它们可以产生梦，因为它们是一种内在的兴奋源，在我们的梦境中取代了外部世界。

And so these P waves, if they are random, could function-- could be the underlying reason why REM sleep dreams are random.

因此，如果这些 P 波是随机的，它们就可以发挥作用——这可能是快速眼动睡眠梦是随机的根本原因。

And it might also be why creativity can happen there because we're randomly activating-- co-activating different things in our brain that we can then sew together.

这也可能是创造力能够发生的原因，因为我们随机激活——共同激活大脑中的不同事物，然后我们可以将它们缝合在一起。

But it might not be as random as we think.

但它可能并不像我们想象的那么随机。

So that's the caveat there.

这就是需要注意的地方。

But when I learned about PGO waves, I thought pons-geniculo-occipital, because occipital is most commonly associated with visual cortex, I thought it was the origin of the visual component of dreams.

但当我了解 PGO 波时，我想到了脑桥-膝-枕叶，因为枕叶最常与视觉皮层相关，我认为它是梦的视觉成分的起源。

I read a paper this last year or-- and I think it was covered in a bit of popular press, that during rapid eye movement sleep, people can solve problems or respond to external stimuli.

我去年读过一篇论文——我认为一些流行媒体对此进行了报道，即在快速眼动睡眠期间，人们可以解决问题或对外部刺激做出反应。

For instance, they would give them math problems.

例如，他们会给他们出数学题。

They'd whisper in their ear while they were in REM sleep, what's 2 plus 2.

他们在快速眼动睡眠时会在耳边低语，2 加 2 是多少。

And then people would say, even though they were paralyzed, apparently they could still move their mouth, because they'd say four or something like that.

然后人们会说，即使他们瘫痪了，显然他们仍然可以动嘴，因为他们会说“四”或类似的东西。

Or they'd say, what's your name.

或者他们会说，你叫什么名字？

And people could respond.

人们可以做出回应。

And so that in REM sleep, perhaps, people-- some elements of cognition are still active.

因此，也许在快速眼动睡眠中，人们的某些认知元素仍然活跃。

And it would be really interesting to see in those people who could lucid dream really well whether they spend more or less time in this asymmetrical state where one area of the brain is in one state and another area of the brain is in another.

看看那些能够很好地进行清醒梦的人是否会花费更多或更少的时间处于这种不对称的状态，即大脑的一个区域处于一种状态，而大脑的另一个区域处于另一种状态，这将是非常有趣的。

And it might be that those people can respond to questions during REM sleep.

这些人可能可以在快速眼动睡眠期间回答问题。

Best are those that have the most asymmetry or dissimilarity or dissociation between subcortical and cortical structures.

最好的是那些在皮质下和皮质结构之间具有最大不对称性或不相似性或分离性的结构。

Or it might be that they're the ones with the most symmetry, we don't know.

或者它们可能是最对称的，我们不知道。

I do worry a little bit about lucid dreaming, because people are-- it's a fad.

我确实有点担心清醒梦，因为人们——这是一种时尚。

People are really excited about it.

人们对此感到非常兴奋。

And to be able to remember one's dreams is fun often unless there are nightmares.

除非有噩梦，否则能够记住自己的梦通常很有趣。

But it's really interesting.

但这真的很有趣。

Or to be able to direct one's dreams if they are a nightmare is really a wonderful power to have, to be able to redirect a nightmare that has been repeated to something else and then kick yourself out of that.

或者，如果一个人的梦想是一场噩梦，那么能够引导自己的梦想确实是一种奇妙的力量，能够将一个已经重复发生的噩梦转向其他事情，然后把自己踢出去。

Repetitive nightmare is really nice.

重复的噩梦真是太好了。

But I worry a little bit about it, because we know so little about what's actually going on in the brain.

但我对此有点担心，因为我们对大脑中实际发生的事情知之甚少。

And if this lucid dreaming state is preventing us from, for example, from the locus coeruleus from calming down or the serotonergic system from silencing like it should, and maybe what we're doing during this state is Yeah we're activating the learning and memory structures but in a way that's maladaptive in terms of the erasure that we need to do.

如果这种清醒梦状态阻止我们，例如，蓝斑平静下来，或者血清素系统像它应该的那样沉默，也许我们在这种状态下正在做的是，是的，我们正在激活学习和记忆结构，但在我们需要做的擦除方面，以一种不适应的方式。

So maybe one of the reasons why most people don't remember most of their dreams is for good reason.

因此，也许大多数人不记得自己大部分梦境的原因之一是有充分理由的。

Your hippocampus is in a state where it's not writing new memories.

你的海马体处于不写入新记忆的状态。

In fact, it's writing out its-- the memories it learned during the day to the cortex.

事实上，它正在将白天学到的记忆写到大脑皮层。

And it's immune from incoming new information.

而且它不受传入新信息的影响。

So maybe lucid dreaming is bad, because you're activating the hippocampus in a way that's writing new memories.

所以也许清醒梦是不好的，因为你正在以一种写入新记忆的方式激活海马体。

And it might be really maladaptive for things like PTSD.

对于创伤后应激障碍（PTSD）之类的事情来说，它可能真的不太适应。

On the other hand, let me just argue myself right out of this, when I used to have a repeated nightmare when I was a kid, my mother who was so wise would tell me, well, listen, just-- next time you're in that dream, say, hey, I'm in a dream and then change something about it.

另一方面，让我自己辩解一下，当我小时候经常做噩梦时，我的母亲非常明智，她会告诉我，好吧，听着，只是 - 下次你在那个梦中时，说，嘿，我在梦中，然后改变一些事情。

So she and I rehearsed what the horrible dream that it was, big monster running after me.

所以她和我演练了那个可怕的梦，大怪物追着我。

And my legs were like mud, and I couldn't run away.

而我的双腿就像泥一样，根本无法逃跑。

And it was just terrifying.

这太可怕了。

And that was a dream I would have time and time again.

这是我一次又一次的梦想。

She said, OK, next time what are you going to do when that monster comes after you?

她说，好吧，下次当那个怪物追你的时候你会怎么做？

I'm going to run away.

我要逃跑。

No, that's what you do every time.

不，这就是你每次都会做的事情。

And it's always the same outcome.

而且结果总是一样的。

You can't run.

你跑不了。

So let's do something different.

所以让我们做一些不同的事情。

What could you do that's different?

你能做什么不同的事情？

So I came up with all-- I could turn around and punch it in the nose.

所以我想出了所有办法——我可以转身用拳头打它的鼻子。

Yeah, that's great.

是的，那太好了。

And so the next time I had that dream-- I did recognize this is that same old dream which means that there's part of my brain that's conscious enough to know that I'm in a dreaming state.

所以，下次我做那个梦时——我确实认识到这是同一个老梦，这意味着我大脑的一部分有足够的意识知道我处于做梦状态。

And then I didn't have the courage in my dream because I was still terrified to punch or touch the monster in any way.

然后我在梦中没有勇气，因为我仍然害怕以任何方式打击或触摸怪物。

But I did have the courage to turn around and look it in the eye and say no. That was enough.

但我确实有勇气转身面对它的眼睛并说不。这就足够了。

I said no.

我说不。

And that was enough to knock me out of that rut of that dream so that I never had it again.

这足以让我摆脱那个梦想的束缚，从此我再也没有拥有过它。

I never had that same dream again.

我再也没有做过同样的梦。

And in fact, it gave me peace about dreaming, because I knew that if ever there was a nightmare that was just too scary, I could probably do something to change it and knock myself out of it.

事实上，它让我对梦想感到平静，因为我知道，如果有一场噩梦太可怕，我可能会做点什么来改变它，让自己摆脱困境。

So even though, I don't recommend lucid dreaming on a normal day-to-day basis, if it's enough that can knock you out of a rut-- one thing that happens with people with PTSD is they have the same repeated horrible nightmare which is often a reliving of the days trauma that had.

因此，尽管如此，我还是不建议在正常的日常生活中做清醒梦，如果清醒梦足以让你摆脱困境的话——患有创伤后应激障碍的人会发生的一件事是，他们会重复做同样的可怕噩梦，这通常是对那些日子的创伤的重温。

So maybe lucid dreaming can be used on occasion to be a powerful tool, because there's so much plasticity that happens during REM sleep to knock you out of that rut of reliving that event and just change it.

因此，也许清醒梦有时可以成为一种强大的工具，因为在快速眼动睡眠期间发生的可塑性非常大，可以让你摆脱重温该事件的陈规，并改变它。

And you could probably practice that during wakefulness, rehearse the event that happened that was so traumatic and then just introduce a new element like, now, I'm safe.

你也许可以在清醒的时候练习这一点，排练发生过的非常痛苦的事件，然后引入一个新的元素，比如，现在，我很安全。

Now, the sound that was associated with that really traumatic thing, I should now associate with something else.

现在，与那件真正令人痛苦的事情相关的声音，我现在应该与其他东西相关联。

And the next time I have that dream, I'm going to change it so that sound is now this new thing that it should be associated with safety.

下次我有这个梦想时，我会改变它，让声音现在成为一个新事物，它应该与安全联系在一起。

And that might be enough, maybe, I hope, to knock you out of that repeated nightmare and maybe even start you on the path to recovery, because if you can calm down about those nightmare states of sleep, then maybe your local coeruleus which is involved in stress can also relax.

我希望，这可能足以让你摆脱重复的噩梦，甚至可能让你走上康复之路，因为如果你能平静下来那些噩梦般的睡眠状态，那么也许你当地与压力有关的蓝纹也能放松。

And you can do the erasure parts that need to be done.

并且可以做需要做的擦除部分。

And then in the waking state, take a little bit of time to try and script out a different narrative altogether.

然后在清醒状态下，花一点时间尝试编写一个完全不同的叙述。

And it took several nights, as I recall, or more but that they were able to escape this recurring nightmare.

我记得，他们花了几个晚上或更长时间才摆脱了这个反复出现的噩梦。

Now, when you're normally asleep alone in your bed, you're not going to be able to cue yourself.

现在，当你通常独自在床上睡觉时，你将无法提示自己。

But it might be that rehearsal enough before you go to sleep is enough to help cue you to that repeated nightmare, remembering what the nightmare is and then figuring out how to cue yourself to do something different.

但在你睡觉前进行足够的排练可能足以帮助你想起那个重复的噩梦，记住噩梦是什么，然后弄清楚如何暗示自己做一些不同的事情。

And I don't know if I ever did any direct work to try and deal with it.

我不知道我是否曾经做过任何直接的工作来尝试处理它。

But now, it almost seems silly to describe it.

但现在，描述它几乎显得愚蠢。

This almost starts to sound like a little bit of a built in while sleeping trauma therapy, because most trauma therapies involved trying to get people into states of counter to what most people think you actually want to get close to the trauma in terms of the narrative or try and suppress the emotional activity of it or-- I guess that's the motivation for ketamine-based therapies for trauma-- or I've also heard, and this is still perplexing to me, that other waking-based trauma therapies involve taking people the other way, making it very cathartic, take them to the peak of the emotional response but then allow that to finally cycle down into a more relaxed response.

这几乎开始听起来有点像是睡眠时创伤治疗的内置内容，因为大多数创伤疗法都试图让人们进入与大多数人认为你实际上想要在叙述方面接近创伤的状态相反的状态，或者试图抑制它的情绪活动，或者——我想这就是基于氯胺酮的创伤疗法的动机——或者我也听说过，这仍然让我感到困惑，其他基于清醒的创伤疗法涉及以另一种方式引导人们，使其变得非常困难。宣泄，将他们带到情绪反应的顶峰，然后让其最终循环到更放松的反应。

So please, if there's anything about locus coeruleus and dreams and that can help people basically extinguish traumas or traumatic features to real life events, we definitely want to know about them.

所以，如果有任何关于蓝斑和梦的东西，可以帮助人们从根本上消除现实生活事件的创伤或创伤特征，我们绝对想了解它们。

And none of these studies has sleep ever been considered.

这些研究都没有考虑过睡眠。

But to me, that's the key part, is bringing down your sympathetic nervous system before you go to sleep so that your sleep can be adaptive, your locus release can shut off like it normally does or should do and then able to erase the novelty of it.

但对我来说，这是关键部分，就是在你入睡前关闭你的交感神经系统，这样你的睡眠就可以适应，你的基因座释放可以像平常那样或应该做的那样关闭，然后能够消除它的新鲜感。

The other thing that I just mentioned a minute ago was that the emotional system is highly activated in REM sleep.

我刚才提到的另一件事是，情绪系统在快速眼动睡眠中高度激活。

And that's definitely true.

这绝对是真的。

And that might seem counterproductive in terms of the nightmares and how to help REM sleep be a therapeutic thing rather than reinforcing the emotionality of the trauma.

就噩梦以及如何帮助快速眼动睡眠成为一种治疗手段而不是强化创伤的情绪而言，这似乎会适得其反。

And I think the key to that again is the absence of norepinephrine.

我认为关键还是缺乏去甲肾上腺素。

So even though the emotional system is in high gear, without norepinephrine, you can actually divorce those highly activated emotions from the cognitive parts of the memory that you have just written out in that N2 stage of sleep when the sleep spindles are going.

因此，即使情绪系统处于高速运转状态，没有去甲肾上腺素，您实际上也可以将那些高度激活的情绪与您刚刚在睡眠纺锤波启动时在睡眠的 N2 阶段写下的记忆的认知部分分开。

So you've just now consolidated the information that you'll need to survive and to make that adaptive.

因此，您刚刚整合了生存所需的信息并使其具有适应性。

And now, you need to divorce from that schema and from that semantic parts of memory, the emotional part, because whenever you remember something, it's fine if you remember the being emotional at the time.

现在，你需要脱离那个模式和记忆的语义部分，即情感部分，因为每当你记住某件事时，如果你记得当时的情绪就很好。

But you don't want to bring back and sew into that memory all of the same emotional systems.

但你不想将所有相同的情感系统带回并缝入记忆中。

You don't want to bring back the heart rate changes, and the sweating, and all of that.

您不想恢复心率变化、出汗等等。

You want to be able to remember all the parts of it and even remember that you were traumatized and that you did cry and that you did have-- your heart was racing.

你希望能够记住它的所有部分，甚至记得你受到了创伤，你确实哭过，你确实有过——你的心跳加速。

But when you're talking about it years later, you don't want to have to relive all that, otherwise who would ever want to recall a traumatic memory because you're basically putting yourself through the same trauma which is what people with PTSD have.

但当你多年后谈论这件事时，你不想重温这一切，否则谁会想回忆起创伤性记忆，因为你基本上让自己经历了与创伤后应激障碍患者所经历的同样的创伤。

They don't want to recall this traumatic memory, because it's reliving it.

他们不想回忆这段痛苦的记忆，因为它正在重温。

Like it's just happening again.

就像刚刚再次发生一样。

So that's what we're thinking is that the emotional parts are no longer-- are not able to be divorced because the norepinephrine system is not downscaled during REM sleep.

所以我们的想法是，情绪部分不再能够分离，因为去甲肾上腺素系统在快速眼动睡眠期间没有缩小规模。

And so that REM sleep serves to instead reinforce and in fact amplify the emotions because your emotional system is up, locus coeruleus is high, re-sewing in every night the emotionality of those memories and with the memory itself.

因此，快速眼动睡眠反而会强化甚至放大情绪，因为你的情绪系统处于上升状态，蓝斑处于高位，每天晚上都会将这些记忆的情绪性以及记忆本身重新缝合起来。

So yeah, so there are lots of other noradrenergic nuclei.

是的，还有很多其他去甲肾上腺素能核。

But the locus coeruleus is the main one that projects all over the brain.

但蓝斑是投射到整个大脑的主要区域。

Actually, the only place that doesn't project is the dorsal striatum.

事实上，唯一不投射的地方是背侧纹状体。

You talked about ventral striatum and addiction.

你谈到了腹侧纹状体和成瘾。

The dorsal striatum is the only place the locus coeruleus doesn't project to.

背侧纹状体是蓝斑唯一不投射到的地方。

And that's involved in procedural learning and motor learning, kinds of learning that take over when your hippocampus, for example, is compromised.

这涉及程序性学习和运动学习，例如，当你的海马体受到损害时，这些学习就会接管。

Bilateral, if you don't have good hippocampus, you can still do procedural learning and do-- and it's great.

双边，如果你没有良好的海马体，你仍然可以进行程序性学习并做——这很棒。

It's a redundant system.

这是一个冗余系统。

And so if your locus coeruleus is not working, if you don't have it anymore, you can still do a-- if you don't have a good hippocampus, you can still do learning through this dorsal striatum on the structure.

所以，如果你的蓝斑不起作用，如果你不再有它，你仍然可以做——如果你没有一个好的海马体，你仍然可以通过这个结构上的背侧纹状体进行学习。

So it might be for those kinds of learning functions, sleep deprivation where you never let the locus coeruleus stop firing is OK, because it doesn't have any receptors for norepinephrine anyway.

因此，对于那些类型的学习功能来说，睡眠剥夺（永远不让蓝斑停止放电）是可以的，因为它无论如何都没有任何去甲肾上腺素受体。

So yeah.

所以是的。

And so our adrenals do great things.

所以我们的肾上腺可以发挥伟大的作用。

They constrict our blood vessels, causing higher blood pressure which helps blood rush out to all the extremities that need blood, our muscles for example, for running away from the lion, or the tiger--

它们收缩我们的血管，导致血压升高，从而帮助血液涌向所有需要血液的四肢，例如我们的肌肉，以躲避狮子或老虎——

So it's doing really important things.

所以它正在做非常重要的事情。

What we don't know, because it doesn't cross the blood brain barrier, is how that affects the brain and whether our-- if we can independently activate our adrenals, when a time when our brain thinks that we should be fine and calm and asleep, how our brain detects that.

我们不知道的是，因为它不能穿过血脑屏障，所以它会如何影响大脑，以及如果我们能够独立激活我们的肾上腺，当我们的大脑认为我们应该保持良好、平静和睡眠时，我们的大脑如何检测到这一点。

Is it a feedback through heart is racing?

是心跳加速的反馈吗？

And then our brainstem says, what's going on, my heart is racing, and then wakes us up.

然后我们的脑干说，发生了什么事，我的心跳加速，然后叫醒我们。

And then our hearts were racing together with our brain racing.

然后我们的心和大脑一起狂跳。

We just don't know the answers to these questions yet.

我们只是还不知道这些问题的答案。

There are some good studies, old studies.

有一些很好的研究，古老的研究。

But we need a lot more.

但我们还需要更多。

And what she has discovered already-- we don't have the paper out yet, but we're working on it-- is that when animals withdraw from opiates-- and this has been replicated in other ways with other types of things-- our sleep is disturbed.

她已经发现——我们还没有发表论文，但我们正在研究——当动物戒断阿片类药物时——这已经以其他方式用其他类型的东西复制了——我们的睡眠就会受到干扰。

Our sleep is terribly disturbed.

我们的睡眠受到严重干扰。

And the amount of sleep disturbance predicts relapse behaviors.

睡眠障碍的程度可以预测行为的复发。

And you might think, well, of course, you're going to relapse if you can't sleep because opiates calm you down.

你可能会想，当然，如果你因为阿片类药物让你平静下来而无法入睡，你就会旧病复发。

Well, then one of the reasons why opiates calm you down is because the locus coeruleus, again, the blue spot, is covered with opiate receptors that are normally really responsive to our endogenous opiates.

嗯，那么阿片类药物让你平静下来的原因之一是因为蓝斑，也就是蓝色的点，覆盖着阿片类受体，这些受体通常对我们的内源性阿片类药物有真正的反应。

And so what happens when we are pleased, for example, or laughing or whatever, endogenous dodges opiates activate those receptors in the locus coeruleus and calm it down.

因此，当我们感到高兴时，例如，大笑或其他什么情况，内源性阿片类药物会激活蓝斑中的受体并使其平静下来。

It actually suppresses locus coeruleus activity.

它实际上抑制蓝斑活性。

It makes us happy and relaxed.

它让我们感到快乐和放松。

One of the things, reasons why opiates are so addictive is because it also calms us down and makes us relaxed.

阿片类药物如此令人上瘾的原因之一是它还能让我们平静下来，让我们放松。

But the problem with exogenous opiates is that they really strongly bind these receptors on our locus coeruleus.

但外源性阿片类药物的问题在于，它们确实与我们蓝斑上的这些受体紧密结合。

And if you take exogenous opiates again and again like you're recovering from surgery, for example, and take these pain medications is that our locus coeruleus struggles to do what it's supposed to do which is keep us awake, and learning, and concentrating on things.

例如，如果你一次又一次地服用外源性阿片类药物，就像你从手术中恢复过来一样，并服用这些止痛药，我们的蓝斑就会努力做它应该做的事情，让我们保持清醒、学习和专注于事情。

So it will down regulate.

所以它会下调。

It will internalize these receptors that are normally only occupied by endogenous opiates.

它将内化这些通常仅被内源性阿片类药物占据的受体。

And it will do this-- it will change our genes that are associated with producing these receptors.

它会做到这一点——它将改变我们与产生这些受体相关的基因。

So you actually have very many fewer receptors.

所以实际上你的受体要少得多。

So the locus coeruleus, at least, during wakefulness can fire and to help us to do these things learn about our environment.

因此，蓝斑至少在清醒时可以放电并帮助我们做这些事情以了解我们的环境。

And so if you long term reduce the number of receptors out there, then when you withdraw the exogenous opiate, there is not enough of your endogenous opiates to be able to occupy those few receptors that are there.

因此，如果您长期减少受体的数量，那么当您撤回外源性阿片制剂时，内源性阿片制剂就不足以占据那里的少数受体。

And our locus has nothing to calm it down anymore, no pacifier.

而我们的所在地已经没有什么可以让它平静下来了，没有奶嘴。

And it just fires, and fires, and fires.

它只是火，火，火。

And that physic and tonic high activity stresses us out, because it's normally associated with stress.

体力和补品的高强度活动会让我们感到压力，因为它通常与压力有关。

And so any exogenous stressor that adds to that and also activates our locus coeruleus, there's nothing to calm it down again.

因此，任何外源性压力源会增加这种压力并激活我们的蓝斑，没有什么可以让它再次平静下来。

And so it just keeps firing.

所以它一直在发射。

It disturbs our sleep.

它扰乱了我们的睡眠。

And that's why maybe sleep disturbance is an indicator of hyperactive locus coeruleus and such a good predictor of relapse behaviors because nobody likes to live in that high stress state.

这就是为什么睡眠障碍可能是蓝斑过度活跃的一个指标，也是复发行为的良好预测因子，因为没有人喜欢生活在那种高压力状态下。

And they will do anything to get back to normal.

他们会尽一切努力恢复正常。

So the problem with taking these drugs is that it leaves you excited-- I'm sorry, excited, relaxed and happy.

所以服用这些药物的问题是它会让你兴奋——对不起，兴奋、放松和快乐。

But then when you come off of it, you're worse than when you were at baseline.

但当你摆脱它时，你会比基线时更糟。

You take it again.

你再拿一下。

It only brings you up this far, because you have fewer receptors.

它只能带你到这里，因为你的受体较少。

When you come off it, you're down, even more depressed and anxious and-- depressed is a word I use loosely, and that's not what I--

当你摆脱它时，你会感到沮丧，甚至更加沮丧和焦虑，而且——沮丧是我宽松地使用的一个词，而那不是我——

So we talked about sleep and the importance of sleep in terms of learning and memory, the importance of the structure of the 90-minute cycle for all of that.

所以我们讨论了睡眠以及睡眠对于学习和记忆的重要性，以及 90 分钟周期结构的重要性。

So you can imagine if your sleep is disturbed by too much locus coeruleus activity.

所以你可以想象一下，如果你的睡眠受到过多的蓝斑活动的干扰。

The structure and the function of those sleep spindles and that theta during REM sleep and the lack of norepinephrine, all of those structures, all those functions for learning something new, like a new behavior that doesn't involve the drugs becomes compromised.

这些睡眠纺锤波的结构和功能，以及快速眼动睡眠期间的θ和去甲肾上腺素的缺乏，所有这些结构，所有这些学习新东西的功能，比如不涉及药物的新行为，都会受到损害。

And so that's something that Tania Lugo, in collaboration with Pamela Kennedy at UCLA, that we're looking at how is learning and memory affected by the sleep disturbance.

因此，塔尼亚·卢戈（Tania Lugo）与加州大学洛杉矶分校的帕梅拉·肯尼迪（Pamela Kennedy）合作，我们正在研究睡眠障碍如何影响学习和记忆。

If there's a way we can-- in animals that are coming off of opiates.

如果我们能找到一种方法——在戒除阿片类药物的动物身上。

Can we restore their sleep to normal so that then they are less likely to do relapse kinds of behaviors.

我们能否让他们的睡眠恢复正常，从而减少他们旧病复发的可能性？

And even though I felt-- I didn't get the high of opiates when I was taking the Tylenol codeine.

尽管我觉得——当我服用泰诺可待因时，我并没有获得阿片类药物的快感。

When I went off it, boy, it was like PMS times 100.

当我戒掉它时，天哪，这就像经前综合症乘以 100。

I was so anxious and upset at little things.

我对一些小事感到非常焦虑和不安。

And thankfully, it only lasted a few hours.

值得庆幸的是，它只持续了几个小时。

But if I had taken it for a week or two weeks, who knows if my endogenous opiate receptors would have been permanently downregulated and I would have been an addict-- or an addict-- I would have been addicted.

但如果我服用一两周，谁知道我的内源性阿片受体是否会永久下调，我就会成为一个瘾君子——或者一个瘾君子——我就会上瘾。

I shouldn't say an addict.

我不应该说是瘾君子。

There's negative connotations.

有负面含义。

It's just a very physiological state.

这只是一种非常生理的状态。

So no judgments at all associated with it.

所以根本没有与之相关的判断。

So yeah, They're powerful, powerful painkillers but can also alter your entire brain and rewire it.

所以，是的，它们是非常非常强大的止痛药，但也可以改变你的整个大脑并重新连接它。

Sex differences that are important in creativity and problem solving and trauma sleep spindles, just such a wealth of information.

性别差异对于创造力和问题解决以及创伤睡眠纺锤波非常重要，这些信息非常丰富。

And much of it that's actionable for people.

其中大部分内容对人们来说都是可行的。

So first of all, I want to say thank you for taking the time to sit down and have this conversation that so many people are sure to benefit from.

首先，我想说感谢您抽出时间坐下来进行这次对话，很多人一定会从中受益。

I also want to thank you for doing the work you do.

我还要感谢您所做的工作。

Even though I'm a fellow neurobiologist, I think that it's not often that we take a step back and realize that it's really the work of hard-- thinking hard, strongly motivated PIs-- it stands for principal investigator by the way, PIs like yourself, graduate students, and post-docs that really drive the discovery forward and that lead to these new therapeutics.

尽管我是一名神经生物学家，但我认为我们并不经常退后一步，意识到这实际上是努力思考、积极主动的 PI 的工作，顺便说一下，它代表首席研究员、像您这样的 PI、研究生和博士后，真正推动了发现的发展，并带来了这些新的治疗方法。

Physicians are wonderful.

医生们都很棒。

Clinicians are absolutely wonderful.

临床医生绝对很棒。

But clinicians don't develop new treatments.

但临床医生不会开发新的治疗方法。

They only implement the ones that researchers discover.

他们只实施研究人员发现的那些。

So thank you for being a brain explorer with a focus on growing the good in the world.

因此，感谢您成为一名专注于发展世界美好事物的大脑探索者。

I know I speak for everybody when I say thank you so much.

我知道当我说非常感谢时，我代表了所有人。

It's so hard to do.

这太难做到了。

It's so hard to do, right?

这太难做到了，对吧？

It's so hard to think through all of that.

要把所有这些都想清楚是非常困难的。

Now, I'm a PI, I get to be an idea person and just say, hey, why don't you do this and hey, what do you think about that.

现在，我是一名 PI，我要成为一个有创意的人，然后说，嘿，你为什么不这样做，嘿，你对此有何看法。

And they, of course, intellectually contributes so much to these planned experiments.

当然，他们在智力上为这些计划中的实验做出了很大贡献。

But they also do the really hard work.

但他们也做着非常艰苦的工作。

And so I just want to say thank you graduate students.

所以我只想对研究生说声谢谢。

Thank you to my graduate students and all graduate students out there.

感谢我的研究生和所有研究生。

Thank you post-docs.

谢谢博士后。

Pay them more.

付给他们更多的钱。

They need it.

他们需要它。

They deserve it.

他们应得的。

If you're learning from and/or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel.

如果您正在学习和/或喜欢此播客，请订阅我们的 YouTube 频道。

That's a terrific zero cost way to support us.

这是支持我们的绝佳零成本方式。

In addition, please subscribe to the podcast on both Spotify and Apple.

此外，请在 Spotify 和 Apple 上订阅该播客。

And on both Spotify and Apple, you can also leave us up to a five-star review.

在 Spotify 和 Apple 上，您还可以给我们留下五星级的评价。

If you have questions for us or comments or suggestions about guests you'd like me to include on the podcast, please put those in the comments section on YouTube.

如果您对我们有任何疑问，或者对希望我在播客中包含的嘉宾有意见或建议，请在 YouTube 的评论部分中提出。

I do read all the comments.

我确实阅读了所有评论。

In addition, please check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode.

此外，请查看今天节目开头和整个节目中提到的赞助商。

That's the best way to support this podcast.

这是支持这个播客的最佳方式。

On the Huberman Lab podcast, we often discuss supplements.

在休伯曼实验室播客上，我们经常讨论补充剂。

While supplements aren't necessary for everybody, many people derive tremendous benefit from them for things like enhancing the quality and duration of sleep, for enhancing focus, and for hormone support.

虽然补充剂并不是每个人都需要的，但许多人从它们中获得了巨大的好处，例如提高睡眠质量和持续时间、增强注意力和激素支持。

The Huberman Lab podcast is proud to announce that we've partnered with Momentous supplements.

Huberman Lab 播客自豪地宣布我们已与 Momentous 补充剂合作。

We've done that for several reasons.

我们这样做有几个原因。

First of all, Momentous supplements are of the very highest quality.

首先，Momentous 补充剂具有最高品质。

Second of all, they mainly focus on single ingredient formulations which is absolutely key if you want to develop a supplement regimen that's most biologically and cost effective.

其次，他们主要关注单一成分配方，如果您想开发最具生物学和成本效益的补充剂方案，这绝对是关键。

It, for instance, allows you to alternate dosages across days to change the dosages of individual ingredients, so on and so forth.

例如，它允许您在几天内交替服用剂量，以改变单个成分的剂量，等等。

In addition, Momentous supplements ship internationally, which we know is important because many of you reside outside of the United States.

此外，Momentous 补充剂还可以进行国际运输，我们知道这一点很重要，因为你们中的许多人居住在美国境外。

If you'd like to see the supplements discussed on the Huberman Lab podcast, please go to livmomentous, spelled o-u-s, so that's livmomentous.com/huberman.

如果您想查看 Huberman Lab 播客上讨论的补充剂，请访问 livmomentous，拼写为 o-u-s，即 livmomentous.com/huberman。

You can get a 20% discount on any of those supplements.

购买任何这些补充剂均可享受 20% 的折扣。

Again, it's a livmomentous.com/huberman.

再说一次，它是 livmomentous.com/huberman。

The Huberman Lab podcast has a zero cost newsletter that includes summaries of podcast episodes and toolkits, so checklist of actionable tools that you can use for all aspects of mental health, physical health, and performance.

胡伯曼实验室播客有一份零成本时事通讯，其中包括播客剧集和工具包的摘要，以及可用于心理健康、身体健康和表现各个方面的可操作工具清单。

You can access this completely zero cost by going to hubermanlab.com, go to the menu, and scroll down to newsletter.

您可以访问 hubermanlab.com，进入菜单，然后向下滚动到时事通讯，从而获得完全零成本的服务。

Just put in your email.

只需输入您的电子邮件即可。

We do not share your email with anybody.

我们不会与任何人分享您的电子邮件。

And you will get our monthly newsletter and there are also some examples of previous newsletters also there at hubermanlab.com.

您将收到我们的每月新闻通讯，在 hubermanlab.com 上也有一些以前的新闻通讯示例。

You're not already following me on social media, it is Huberman Lab on all platforms, Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, and LinkedIn.

您还没有在社交媒体上关注我，我是 Huberman Lab 在所有平台（Instagram、Twitter、Facebook 和 LinkedIn）上的关注者。

And at all of those places, I cover science and science-related tools, some of which overlap with the content of the Huberman Lab podcast but much of which is distinct from the Huberman Lab podcast content.

在所有这些地方，我介绍了科学和与科学相关的工具，其中一些与胡伯曼实验室播客的内容重叠，但其中大部分与胡伯曼实验室播客内容不同。

Again, that's Huberman Lab on all social media platforms.

再说一次，这就是所有社交媒体平台上的 Huberman Lab。

Thank you again for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Gina Poe all about sleep and its relationship to mental health, physical health, and performance.

再次感谢您今天与我一起与吉娜·坡博士讨论睡眠及其与心理健康、身体健康和表现的关系。

And last but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.

最后但并非最不重要的一点是，感谢您对科学的兴趣。