Dr. Gabrielle Lyon: How to Exercise & Eat for Optimal Health & Longevity

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.

欢迎来到休伯曼实验室播客，我们在这里讨论科学和基于科学的日常生活工具。

I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.

我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。

I'm pleased to announce that my new book, which I've been working on for more than five years, is now available for presale purchase.

我很高兴地宣布，我花了五年多时间创作的新书现在可以预售了。

The book is entitled "Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body." And within the book, you can find, as the name suggests, protocols for everything from how to improve and even optimize your sleep, for increasing your motivation and focus, for nutrition, that is specific nutritional guidelines to follow for health and performance, as well as exercise, stress control, your oral and gut microbiome, both of which are critical for brain and body health, as well as protocols for creativity and much more.

这本书的标题是“协议：人体操作手册”。顾名思义，在书中，您可以找到各种方案，从如何改善甚至优化您的睡眠，提高动力和注意力，到营养（为了健康和表现而需要遵循的具体营养指南），以及锻炼、压力控制、口腔和肠道微生物群（这两者对大脑和身体健康都至关重要），以及创造力等方面的方案。

Within the book, you'll also find the scientific basis, that is the mechanisms and specific studies that substantiate these protocols.

在书中，您还将找到科学依据，即证实这些协议的机制和具体研究。

And the book is designed to be incredibly easy to use, such that if you're suffering from a particular pain point in life, such as difficulty sleeping or excess stress or any number of different issues, that you can go to a specific chapter and protocol and begin to resolve that issue.

这本书的设计非常易于使用，这样，如果您遇到生活中的特定痛点，例如睡眠困难或压力过大或任何数量的不同问题，您可以转到特定的章节和协议并开始解决该问题。

So my goal in writing this book is that it not only be exceptionally practical, but that it also be extremely informative, that is teaching you a lot about the science that underlies the protocols that can improve your mental health, physical health, and performance.

因此，我写这本书的目标是，它不仅非常实用，而且信息丰富，教给你很多关于改善你的心理健康、身体健康和表现的协议基础的科学知识。

To order "Protocols," go to protocolsbook.com, and there you will find links to any number of different vendors, and you can select the one that you prefer.

要订购“协议”，请访问protocolsbook.com，在那里您将找到任意数量的不同供应商的链接，您可以选择您喜欢的供应商。

Again, that's protocolsbook.com.

再说一次，那是protocolbook.com。

My guest for today's episode is Dr. Gabrielle Lyon.

今天这一集的嘉宾是加布里埃尔·里昂博士。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon is a medical doctor who did her clinical and research training at Washington University in St. Louis.

加布里埃尔·里昂 (Gabrielle Lyon) 博士是一名医生，曾在圣路易斯华盛顿大学接受临床和研究培训。

She's an expert in geriatrics, in nutrition, in health, and longevity.

她是老年病学、营养学、健康和长寿方面的专家。

And during today's episode, Dr. Lyon explains how if we are interested in our immediate and long-term health, muscle is the organ that we need to pay attention to.

在今天的节目中，里昂博士解释了如果我们对近期和长期健康感兴趣，肌肉就是我们需要关注的器官。

She explains how this is true for everybody, men and women alike, and that there are specific things that we all can and should do with our nutrition and our exercise in order to maximize the health of our muscular tissue.

她解释了这对每个人（无论男性还是女性）都是如此，并且我们所有人都可以并且应该通过我们的营养和锻炼来完成一些特定的事情，以最大限度地提高我们的肌肉组织的健康。

Now, in some cases, people will be interested in building more muscle, but it's important to point out that much of today's discussion is simply about improving the health of your muscular tissue and the specific ways to do that in order to support brain health, body health, and movement, of course, as well as the health of every organ system in your body.

现在，在某些情况下，人们会对锻炼更多的肌肉感兴趣，但重要的是要指出，今天的大部分讨论只是关于改善肌肉组织的健康以及实现这一目标的具体方法，以支持大脑健康、身体健康和运动，当然还有身体每个器官系统的健康。

Again, placing a focus on improving muscular tissue itself as a way to improve all the organ and tissue systems of your body.

再次强调，重点关注改善肌肉组织本身，以此作为改善身体所有器官和组织系统的一种方式。

Dr. Lyon explains the specific science and protocols that can be applied in your everyday life at the level of what you choose to eat or not eat, as well as how much of certain foods to eat or avoid, as well as specific training regimens, most of which take very little time, but that can vastly improve the health of your muscular tissue and therefore the health of your entire brain and body.

里昂博士解释了可以应用于您日常生活中的具体科学和方案，包括您选择吃什么或不吃什么，以及吃或避免吃多少某些食物，以及具体的训练方案，其中大多数只需要很少的时间，但可以极大地改善您的肌肉组织的健康，从而改善您整个大脑和身体的健康。

I'm certain that by the end of today's episode, you will have a much more thorough understanding of what you can do to improve your immediate and long-term health, and thereby potentially your lifespan, all of which are based on the most modern understanding from basic research, from clinical studies, and from practical application in the real world.

我确信，在今天的节目结束时，您将对如何改善您的近期和长期健康状况，从而潜在地延长您的寿命有更透彻的了解，所有这些都基于来自基础研究、临床研究和现实世界的实际应用的最现代的理解。

Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.

在开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。

It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public.

然而，我的愿望和努力的一部分是向公众提供有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本消费者信息。

In keeping with that theme, I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast.

为了与这个主题保持一致，我要感谢今天播客的赞助商。

Our first sponsor is Maui Nui Venison.

我们的第一个赞助商是 Maui Nui Venison。

Maui Nui Venison is the most nutrient-dense and delicious red meat available.

毛伊努伊鹿肉是营养最丰富、最美味的红肉。

Now, I've spoken many times before on this and other podcasts, and with several expert guests on this podcast, about the fact that most of us should be seeking to get about one gram of high-quality protein per pound of body weight every day.

现在，我之前已经在这个播客和其他播客上以及与这个播客上的几位专家嘉宾谈论过这样一个事实：我们大多数人应该寻求每天每磅体重获取约一克的优质蛋白质。

Not only does that protein provide critical building blocks for things like muscle repair and synthesis, but also for overall metabolism and health.

这种蛋白质不仅为肌肉修复和合成等提供了关键的组成部分，而且还为整体新陈代谢和健康提供了关键的组成部分。

Maui Nui Venison has an extremely high-quality protein per calorie ratio so that you can get that one gram of protein per pound of body weight easily and without ingesting an excess of calories.

毛伊努伊鹿肉具有极高品质的蛋白质每卡路里比例，因此您可以轻松获得每磅体重一克蛋白质，而无需摄入过多的卡路里。

Also, Maui Nui Venison is absolutely delicious.

另外，茂宜岛鹿肉绝对美味。

I love their venison steaks, their ground venison.

我喜欢他们的鹿肉牛排和碎鹿肉。

I love their bone broths, and I love their jerky, which is extremely convenient when you're traveling.

我喜欢他们的骨头汤，也喜欢他们的肉干，这在旅行时非常方便。

Those Maui Nui Venison jerky sticks have 10 grams of high-quality protein per stick at just 55 calories.

这些 Maui Nui 鹿肉干棒每棒含有 10 克优质蛋白质，热量仅为 55 卡路里。

While Maui Nui offers the highest quality meat available, their supplies are limited.

虽然毛伊努伊岛提供最优质的肉类，但供应有限。

Responsible management of the axis deer population on the island of Maui means that they will not go beyond harvest capacity.

对毛伊岛轴鹿种群的负责任管理意味着它们不会超出捕猎能力。

So signing up for a membership is the best way to ensure access to their high-quality meat.

因此，注册会员是确保获得优质肉类的最佳方式。

If you'd like to try Maui Nui Venison, you can go to mauinuivenison.com/huberman to get 20% off your membership or first order.

如果您想尝试 Maui Nui 鹿肉，您可以访问 mauinuivenison.com/huberman 享受会员资格或首次订单 20% 的折扣。

Again, that's mauinuivenison.com/huberman.

同样，这是 mauinuivenison.com/huberman。

Today's episode is also brought to us by Levels.

今天的节目也是Levels给我们带来的。

Levels is a program that lets you see how different foods and activities affect your health by giving you real-time feedback on your diet using a continuous glucose monitor.

Levels 是一个程序，通过使用连续血糖监测仪为您提供有关饮食的实时反馈，让您了解不同的食物和活动如何影响您的健康。

One of the most important factors in both your short and long-term health is your body's ability to manage glucose, or what's sometimes called blood sugar.

影响您的短期和长期健康的最重要因素之一是您的身体管理葡萄糖（有时称为血糖）的能力。

To maintain energy and focus throughout the day, you want to keep your blood glucose steady without big spikes or crashes.

为了全天保持精力充沛和注意力集中，您希望血糖保持稳定，不要出现大幅峰值或崩溃。

I started using Levels about three years ago as a way to understand how different foods and activities impacted my blood glucose levels, and it's proven incredibly informative for me in determining what food choices I make, when to eat, and when to time eating relative to workouts, sleep, et cetera.

大约三年前，我开始使用“水平”来了解不同的食物和活动如何影响我的血糖水平，事实证明，它对我来说提供了难以置信的信息，可以帮助我确定我选择什么食物、何时进食以及相对于锻炼、睡眠等的何时进食。

Indeed, using Levels has made it very easy for me to optimize my entire schedule and to understand where the flexibility in that schedule exists so that if I need to move a meal or I need to fast a little bit longer, or if I need to work out fasted or not fasted, all of that can be adjusted while maintaining energy and focus and great sleep at night.

事实上，使用 Levels 让我很容易优化我的整个日程安排，并了解该日程安排中存在的灵活性，这样，如果我需要改变进餐时间，或者我需要禁食更长一点，或者如果我需要禁食或不禁食锻炼，所有这些都可以进行调整，同时保持精力和注意力以及晚上良好的睡眠。

If you're interested in learning more about Levels and trying a CGM yourself, you can go to levels.link/huberman.

如果您有兴趣了解有关 Levels 的更多信息并亲自尝试 CGM，可以访问levels.link/huberman。

Levels just launched a new CGM sensor that is smaller and has even better tracking than the previous version.

Levels 刚刚推出了一款新的 CGM 传感器，它比以前的版本更小，但跟踪能力更好。

Right now, they're also offering an additional two free months of membership.

现在，他们还提供额外两个月的免费会员资格。

Again, that's levels.link, L-I-N-K, /huberman to try the new sensor and two free months of membership.

同样，这是levels.link、L-I-N-K、/huberman 来尝试新传感器和两个月的免费会员资格。

Today's episode is also brought to us by Helix Sleep.

今天的节目也是由 Helix Sleep 为我们带来的。

Helix Sleep makes mattresses and pillows that are customized to your unique sleep needs.

Helix Sleep 生产根据您独特的睡眠需求定制的床垫和枕头。

Now, I've spoken many times before on this and other podcasts about the fact that sleep is the foundation for mental health, physical health, and performance.

现在，我之前已经在这个播客和其他播客中多次谈到睡眠是心理健康、身体健康和表现的基础这一事实。

Now, one of the key things to getting a great night's sleep is to make sure that you sleep on a mattress designed specifically for your sleep needs, and that's what Helix Sleep mattresses are designed to accomplish.

现在，获得良好睡眠的关键之一是确保您睡在专为您的睡眠需求而设计的床垫上，而这正是 Helix Sleep 床垫的设计目的。

If you go to the Helix website and take a brief two-minute quiz, it asks you questions such as: Do you sleep on your back, your side, or your stomach?

如果您访问 Helix 网站并进行一个两分钟的简短测验，它会问您以下问题：您睡的是仰卧、侧卧还是俯卧？

Do you tend to run hot or cold during the night?

你晚上容易感到热还是冷？

Maybe you know, maybe you don't know the answers to those questions.

也许你知道，也许你不知道这些问题的答案。

In any case, they'll match you to the ideal mattress for your unique sleep needs.

无论如何，他们都会为您匹配适合您独特睡眠需求的理想床垫。

For me, that turned out to be the Dusk Helix mattress.

对我来说，这就是 Dusk Helix 床垫。

I started sleeping on a Dusk mattress about three and a half years ago, and it's been far and away the best sleep that I've ever had because it's customized to my unique sleep needs.

大约三年半前，我开始睡在 Dusk 床垫上，这无疑是我睡过的最好的睡眠，因为它是根据我独特的睡眠需求定制的。

If you'd like to try Helix, you can go to helixsleep.com/huberman, take that two-minute sleep quiz, and Helix will match you to a mattress that's ideal for your unique sleep needs.

如果您想尝试 Helix，可以访问 helixsleep.com/huberman，参加两分钟的睡眠测验，Helix 将为您匹配最适合您独特睡眠需求的床垫。

Right now, Helix is giving up to 30% off mattresses and two free pillows.

目前，Helix 提供高达 30% 的床垫折扣和两个免费枕头。

Again, that's helixsleep.com/huberman to get 30% off and two free pillows.

再次强调，helixsleep.com/huberman 提供 30% 折扣和两个免费枕头。

And now for my discussion with Dr. Gabrielle Lyon.

现在我与加布里埃尔·里昂博士进行了讨论。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon, welcome.

加布里埃尔·里昂博士，欢迎。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Thank you so much.

非常感谢。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So great to have you here.

很高兴你能来到这里。

You have a tremendous range and depth of expertise.

您拥有广泛而深入的专业知识。

You treat men, you treat women, you know a ton about exercise physiology, nutrition.

你对待男人，你对待女人，你对运动生理学和营养学了解很多。

You've done work in psychiatry.

你从事过精神病学方面的工作。

You've done work in geriatrics.

您从事老年医学方面的工作。

You know so very much about how to get healthy and stay healthy, and today we're going to talk about all of that.

您非常了解如何获得健康和保持健康，今天我们将讨论所有这些。

To kick things off, I would love to dive into your take on this unique aspect of our physiology that most people when they hear about think about weight training or maybe bodybuilding or have some immediate reaction to, but you have a different stance on this incredible organ that we call muscle.

首先，我很想深入探讨一下您对我们生理学这一独特方面的看法，大多数人在听到这个方面时都会想到重量训练或健美或立即做出一些反应，但您对这个我们称之为肌肉的令人难以置信的器官有不同的立场。

So if you would just tell us how you look at this thing that we call muscle in men, in women, in kids, in old people, young people.

所以，如果你能告诉我们你如何看待男性、女性、儿童、老年人、年轻人的肌肉这个东西。

How should we think about muscle?

我们应该如何看待肌肉？

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Well, first of all, muscle is the organ of longevity, and we've always thought about muscle just as you said, when it comes to exercise, performance, mobility, and strength, which by the way, all of those things are important and critical for life.

嗯，首先，肌肉是长寿的器官，正如你所说，当谈到锻炼、表现、灵活性和力量时，我们一直都在考虑肌肉，顺便说一句，所有这些事情对于生命来说都是重要且关键的。

But there's something very unique and special to skeletal muscle.

但骨骼肌有一些非常独特和特殊的东西。

First of all, it's an organ system.

首先，它是一个器官系统。

It's an endocrine organ.

它是一个内分泌器官。

It is responsible for a large component of glucose disposal, roughly 80% of glucose disposal, and we all hear about these things like cardiovascular disease, type 2 diabetes, obesity.

它负责葡萄糖处理的很大一部分，大约占葡萄糖处理的 80%，我们都听说过心血管疾病、2 型糖尿病、肥胖等疾病。

Largely, many of these metabolic diseases begin in skeletal muscle decades before.

很大程度上，许多代谢疾病几十年前就开始于骨骼肌。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Interesting.

有趣。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Skeletal muscle is also an amino acid reservoir.

骨骼肌也是氨基酸库。

It is the place that your body pulls from amino acids, and that is something that changes as we age, this idea of protein turnover, and we require healthy skeletal muscle.

这是你的身体从氨基酸中提取氨基酸的地方，随着我们年龄的增长，蛋白质周转的概念会发生变化，我们需要健康的骨骼肌。

Of course, it's the body armor that we all know, and it is really responsible for how we age.

当然，这是我们都知道的防弹衣，它确实对我们的衰老负责。

And by the way, I came to this understanding through an experience I'd love to share with you.

顺便说一句，我是通过一次我想与你们分享的经历得出这一理解的。

I did my fellowship in geriatrics and nutritional sciences, and at the time, we were looking at-- Every fellow has to have a project.

我在老年病学和营养科学领域进行了研究，当时，我们正在研究——每个研究员都必须有一个项目。

Lucky for us.

我们很幸运。

And we were looking at body composition and brain function.

我们正在研究身体成分和大脑功能。

And there was one patient who I just adored.

还有一位我很喜欢的病人。

She was a mom of three kids, and she had always yo-yo dieted.

她是三个孩子的妈妈，而且她一直在节食。

We imaged her brain, and her brain looked like the beginning of an Alzheimer's brain.

我们对她的大脑进行了成像，她的大脑看起来就像是阿尔茨海默氏症大脑的开始。

And I thought to myself, and I felt very responsible, thinking why was this woman who was doing everything that we told her to do, she was exercising, she was eating a low-fat, high-carbohydrate diet, why was she so metabolically unhealthy?

我心里想，我感到非常有责任，思考为什么这个女人正在做我们告诉她做的一切，她在锻炼，她在吃低脂肪、高碳水化合物的饮食，为什么她的代谢如此不健康？

And I realized that at the end of the day, it wasn't that she was overfat, it was that she was under-muscled.

我意识到，归根结底，并不是她太胖了，而是她肌肉不足。

And we spend decades, and have spent decades trying to treat obesity, when really what we need to be looking at is skeletal muscle.

我们花了几十年的时间来尝试治疗肥胖症，而我们真正需要关注的是骨骼肌。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Super interesting.

超级有趣。

We know that the brain is among the most metabolically active organs in the body, and muscle too, one of the most metabolically active organs in the body.

我们知道，大脑是体内代谢最活跃的器官之一，肌肉也是体内代谢最活跃的器官之一。

You'll probably tell me that one is more active than the other.

您可能会告诉我，其中一个比另一个更活跃。

Which one is it?

是哪一个？

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Muscle's actually, quite frankly, not very metabolically active at rest.

坦率地说，肌肉在休息时实际上代谢并不活跃。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Interesting.

有趣。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

For every pound of skeletal muscle, it might at rest burn 10 calories.

每磅骨骼肌在休息时可能会燃烧 10 卡路里。

Primarily burns fatty acids at rest.

主要在休息时燃烧脂肪酸。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Okay.

好的。

I learned something new, and I imagine many other people did as well.

我学到了一些新东西，我想很多其他人也学到了一些新东西。

So this woman that was overweight.

所以这个女人超重了。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You looked at the problem through a different lens.

你从不同的角度看待这个问题。

That she's under-muscled.

说她肌肉不足。

How does one go from being under-muscled to properly muscled, and what is that?

一个人如何从肌肉不足变成肌肉发达，那是什么？

And as I say this, I realize that many of our listeners probably don't resistance train, or if they do, they may not want to carry a lot of muscle thinking that that would make them have to buy a new wardrobe.

当我这么说时，我意识到我们的许多听众可能不会进行阻力训练，或者即使他们进行了，他们也可能不想携带大量肌肉，认为这会让他们不得不购买新的衣柜。

Certainly, some of our listenership probably wants to gain more muscle, but is there-

当然，我们的一些听众可能想要获得更多的肌肉，但是有吗-

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Or a new wardrobe.

或者一个新衣柜。

I'm sorry.

对不起。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Or a new wardrobe.

或者一个新衣柜。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Is there a way to view increasing muscle mass in a way that is compatible with kind of, I don't know, traditional aesthetics or with overall health in a way that's sort of distinct from "bodybuilding?" Again, as soon as we talk about muscle, we think about slabs of meat added to different parts of our body, and surely certain people probably want to add muscle to certain parts of their body for aesthetic reasons.

有没有一种方法可以以一种与我不知道的传统美学兼容的方式来看待肌肉质量的增加，或者以一种与“健美”不同的方式来看待整体健康？再说一次，一旦我们谈论肌肉，我们就会想到添加到我们身体不同部位的肉块，当然，某些人可能出于审美原因想要在身体的某些部位添加肌肉。

But how should we think about muscle in the context of some of the to-dos in terms of nutrition and exercise?

但是，在营养和锻炼方面的一些待办事项的背景下，我们应该如何考虑肌肉呢？

And we'll segue into that.

我们将继续讨论这个问题。

Again, how should we conceptualize this business of being under-muscled and getting to I guess what we call appropriately muscled.

再说一次，我们应该如何概念化肌肉不足和达到我们所说的适当肌肉的状态。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

I think that it's a really good point, this idea of being appropriately muscled.

我认为这是一个很好的观点，即适当增强肌肉的想法。

So the truth is, I can't tell you how much skeletal muscle mass you should have for optimal health.

所以事实是，我无法告诉您应该拥有多少骨骼肌质量才能达到最佳健康状态。

I don't know how much skeletal muscle mass I should have for optimal health.

我不知道我应该拥有多少骨骼肌才能达到最佳健康状态。

We haven't done a good job in the literature, and just as a population, being able to track skeletal muscle and know what is optimal.

我们在文献方面做得还不够好，而且作为一个群体，我们还没有能够跟踪骨骼肌并知道什么是最佳的。

We are really good at looking at body fat, and we're really good at looking at bone.

我们非常擅长观察身体脂肪，我们也非常擅长观察骨骼。

But when it comes to skeletal muscle, DXA is an extrapolation.

但对于骨骼肌而言，DXA 是一种推断。

So for example, we use DXA as the gold standard, and I'm going to come back to what we need to do to gain healthy skeletal muscle, but I think that it's really important to put things into perspective, and a framework for how we think about things.

例如，我们使用 DXA 作为黄金标准，我将回到我们需要做什么来获得健康的骨骼肌，但我认为正确看待事物以及我们如何思考事物的框架非常重要。

We traditionally use DXA.

我们传统上使用 DXA。

DXA looks at bone, and it looks at lean tissue collectively.

DXA 检查骨骼，同时检查瘦肉组织。

Part of lean tissue is skeletal muscle mass.

瘦肉组织的一部分是骨骼肌质量。

It doesn't determine the health of skeletal muscle mass.

它并不决定骨骼肌质量的健康状况。

It doesn't determine anything about the quality of that tissue.

它并不能决定该组织的质量。

It purely looks at lean tissue, which then we determine part of that lean tissue, maybe it's 40%, is skeletal muscle.

它纯粹关注瘦肉组织，然后我们确定该瘦肉组织的一部分，也许是 40%，是骨骼肌。

And that's important to understand as we begin to frame up the conversation is, how much skeletal muscle should I have?

当我们开始讨论时，理解这一点很重要：我应该有多少骨骼肌？

I have no idea.

我不知道。

But what I can tell you is that if I were to look at your blood work, and I saw something like elevated triglycerides, or elevated insulin, or elevated glucose, I would begin to understand that the health of your skeletal muscle isn't where it should be.

但我可以告诉你的是，如果我检查你的血液检查，发现甘油三酯升高、胰岛素升高或葡萄糖升高等情况，我就会开始明白你的骨骼肌健康状况并不理想。

And by the way, the health of skeletal muscle mass begins when we're young.

顺便说一句，骨骼肌质量的健康从我们年轻时就开始了。

This idea of sarcopenia, which for the listener or the viewer, the definition of sarcopenia, by the way, became a disease.

顺便说一句，对于听众或观众来说，肌肉减少症的定义变成了一种疾病。

It wasn't even classified as a disease till 2016.

直到 2016 年，它甚至还没有被归类为一种疾病。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Wow.

哇。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Yes.

是的。

Wow, which is very recent for a disease.

哇，这是最近才出现的一种疾病。

It is a decrease in muscle mass and function.

这是肌肉质量和功能的减少。

But interestingly, we don't necessarily know what one should have.

但有趣的是，我们不一定知道一个人应该拥有什么。

So I think it's important to understand that when we're talking about the health of skeletal muscle, we're still pretty much in the infancy of understanding the trajectory of where it is and where it's going.

因此，我认为重要的是要了解，当我们谈论骨骼肌的健康时，我们仍然处于了解它的位置和去向的轨迹的初级阶段。

So when we think about how we maintain the health of skeletal muscle, one of the things that I didn't mention is that skeletal muscle is a nutrient-sensing organ.

因此，当我们思考如何保持骨骼肌的健康时，我没有提到的一件事是骨骼肌是一种营养感应器官。

It is uniquely sensitive to the quality of our diet.

它对我们的饮食质量特别敏感。

The quality of our diet defined as the quality of the amino acids that we're gaining.

我们饮食的质量定义为我们获得的氨基酸的质量。

And that would be, for the listener, dietary protein.

对于听众来说，这就是膳食蛋白质。

Skeletal muscle is sensitive to one of the amino acids, leucine.

骨骼肌对其中一种氨基酸亮氨酸敏感。

And depending on the quality of the diet, meaning how much leucine that you're getting in any given meal, will then stimulate muscle health.

根据饮食的质量，即您在每一餐中摄入的亮氨酸量，将刺激肌肉健康。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Not just muscle size, but muscle health.

不仅仅是肌肉大小，还有肌肉健康。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Muscle health.

肌肉健康。

And the way that we think about muscle health is by proxy, is this concept called muscle protein synthesis, which we can measure.

我们思考肌肉健康的方式是通过代理，这个概念称为肌肉蛋白质合成，我们可以测量它。

And when we get a dietary protein amount, which is between 30 and 50 grams of high-quality protein, it stimulates skeletal muscle.

当我们获得膳食蛋白质含量（30 至 50 克优质蛋白质）时，它会刺激骨骼肌。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So I love this idea of focusing for a bit on muscle protein health, because it divorces us from this conversation, at least temporarily, about muscle size, which I have to imagine is correlated, but is a separate thing altogether.

所以我喜欢这个稍微关注肌肉蛋白质健康的想法，因为它使我们至少暂时脱离了关于肌肉大小的对话，我必须想象这是相关的，但完全是一个独立的事情。

Actually, I should just ask the question, is it possible for somebody to have a lot of muscle, but their muscle health is poor?

实际上，我应该问一个问题，是否有可能有人拥有很多肌肉，但他们的肌肉健康状况却很差？

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Okay.

好的。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Conversely, can somebody have a moderate to low amount of muscle, but their muscle quality is high, or is that less common?

相反，是否有人拥有中等到低的肌肉量，但他们的肌肉质量很高，或者这种情况不太常见？

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Well, the first thing that you said is absolutely something that we see, is that in an individual that carries a lot of muscle, and say they're inactive, there is a big discussion about how heavy individuals will have more muscle mass.

嗯，你说的第一件事绝对是我们看到的，那就是，在一个拥有大量肌肉的人中，并且说他们不活跃，关于体重多少的人将拥有更多的肌肉质量存在着很大的讨论。

But what we have to recognize is the health of that skeletal muscle is fat deposition can be visceral fat deposition, fat around the organs, and it can be also fat infiltrate into the tissue, like, not to gross anyone out, a marbled steak.

但我们必须认识到，骨骼肌的健康是脂肪沉积，可以是内脏脂肪沉积，器官周围的脂肪，也可以是脂肪渗透到组织中，就像大理石牛排一样。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

And that's exactly what can happen to unhealthy skeletal muscle, which then affects its ability to contract, which also affects-- There's a ton of mitochondria in skeletal muscle.

这正是不健康的骨骼肌可能发生的情况，从而影响其收缩能力，这也会影响——骨骼肌中有大量线粒体。

It affects the efficiency of skeletal muscle.

它影响骨骼肌的效率。

So yes, someone can have potentially more muscle, but more unhealthy muscle.

所以，是的，某人可能拥有更多的肌肉，但也有更多不健康的肌肉。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Interesting.

有趣。

When you say a marbled steak, I think at the extreme, like a wagyu.

当你说大理石牛排时，我认为是极端的，就像和牛一样。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

A raw wagyu looks like there's as much white fat in it as there is red meat in it.

生和牛看起来白色脂肪的含量与红肉的含量一样多。

And it's a very different taste and texture.

这是一种非常不同的味道和质地。

So that's what we're talking about.

这就是我们正在讨论的。

My understanding is those cows don't move around much.

我的理解是那些牛不怎么走动。

They're somewhat sedentary compared to, say, a free-range grass-eating cow.

与自由放养的食草牛相比，它们有点久坐。

Is that right?

是这样吗？

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Okay.

好的。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

That's absolutely correct.

这是绝对正确的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Okay.

好的。

So we want quality, healthy muscle, and then we can talk about muscle amount.

所以我们想要优质、健康的肌肉，然后我们才能谈论肌肉量。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

And then the other thing that I'll say about it is part of what defines muscle health is that flux, that movement.

然后我要说的另一件事是定义肌肉健康的一部分，那就是流动、运动。

So if you were to think about skeletal muscle like a suitcase, and an individual was, say, going on a trip for four days but chooses to eat or pack for 30 days.

因此，如果你将骨骼肌想象成一个手提箱，那么一个人，比如说，要旅行四天，但选择在 30 天里吃饭或打包。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

We know these people.

我们认识这些人。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Yes, I know.

是的，我知道。

I'm maybe one of them.

我也许是其中之一。

I have my suitcase here.

我的手提箱在这里。

I was only coming in for a day, but I may have packed for four days.

我只来了一天，但我可能已经收拾了四天了。

Not sure what I was doing, but that's besides the point.

不确定我在做什么，但这不是重点。

When an individual is overeating calories, overeating carbohydrates-- I had mentioned earlier that skeletal muscle, one of its primary roles is glucose disposal, and I'm sure we're going to get into the mechanisms of glucose disposal, whether it's insulin dependent or insulin independent, depending on if someone is moving or contracting that muscle.

当一个人摄入过多卡路里、摄入过多碳水化合物时——我之前提到过，骨骼肌的主要作用之一是葡萄糖处理，我确信我们将了解葡萄糖处理机制，无论它是胰岛素依赖型还是胰岛素独立型，取决于某人是否移动或收缩该肌肉。

When an individual is eating food, carbohydrates, it gets stored in skeletal muscle as glycogen Because as we know, glucose at a high level is toxic to the body, so the body must move glucose out of the bloodstream into the cells.

当一个人吃食物、碳水化合物时，它会以糖原的形式储存在骨骼肌中。因为众所周知，高水平的葡萄糖对身体有毒，因此身体必须将葡萄糖从血液中转移到细胞中。

Now, what happens is there becomes this stasis.

现在，发生的事情变成了这种停滞。

So if an individual is inactive and not exercising, then that skeletal muscle becomes overpacked.

因此，如果一个人不活动且不锻炼，那么骨骼肌就会变得过度拥挤。

Skeletal muscle at rest burns primarily free fatty acids, which is interesting.

有趣的是，休息时的骨骼肌主要燃烧游离脂肪酸。

Most people think about skeletal muscle as burning carbohydrates, but actually at rest, skeletal muscle burns fatty acids.

大多数人认为骨骼肌燃烧碳水化合物，但实际上在休息时，骨骼肌燃烧脂肪酸。

As you can imagine, when that muscle is full and you are not exercising it, then the substrates have nowhere to go, and it remains in the bloodstream.

正如您可以想象的那样，当肌肉充满而您没有锻炼它时，底物就无处可去，并且仍保留在血液中。

And that would be a sign of unhealthy skeletal muscle, which then loops back to what you see in blood work.

这将是骨骼肌不健康的迹象，然后又会回到您在血液检查中看到的情况。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Elevated insulin, elevated blood glucose.

胰岛素升高，血糖升高。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Yes.

是的。

Elevated free fatty acids, elevated branched-chain amino acids, all of these things which, again, as skeletal muscle, as the metabolic sink, have nowhere to go.

游离脂肪酸升高，支链氨基酸升高，所有这些东西，同样，作为骨骼肌，作为代谢库，无处可去。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So I'm starting to get a picture where in order to have healthy muscle, we need to think about the feeding of that muscle, the providing of nutrients to that muscle that is, as well as the use of that muscle.

所以我开始明白，为了拥有健康的肌肉，我们需要考虑肌肉的喂养，即为肌肉提供营养，以及肌肉的使用。

Maybe let's start with the feeding or the providing of nutrients to that muscle.

也许让我们从喂养或为肌肉提供营养开始。

You mentioned that muscle at rest mainly burns fatty acids.

你提到休息时的肌肉主要燃烧脂肪酸。

It can store glycogen.

它可以储存糖原。

How do we know when a muscle is full of glycogen?

我们如何知道肌肉何时充满糖原？

There's the visual representation of the muscle seems fuller as opposed to flatter, but these are not specific, or these are not precise terms.

肌肉的视觉表现似乎更饱满，而不是更平坦，但这些不是具体的，或者这些不是精确的术语。

How much carbohydrate does it take to fill all the muscle of the body with glycogen, and then what sorts of things perhaps deplete that?

需要多少碳水化合物才能使身体的所有肌肉充满糖原，那么什么样的东西可能会耗尽糖原呢？

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

I think it's a great question.

我认为这是一个很好的问题。

We know that when we're talking about glycogen, the liver stores glycogen, maybe 100 grams.

我们知道，当我们谈论糖原时，肝脏会储存糖原，可能是 100 克。

And then skeletal muscle, depending on your size, for example, you might store much more muscle glycogen, whether it's 4 or 500 grams, compared to someone who is my size.

然后是骨骼肌，例如，根据你的体型，与我这个体型的人相比，你可能会储存更多的肌糖原，无论是 4 克还是 500 克。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And can we do the standard conversion of four calories per gram?

我们可以做每克四卡路里的标准换算吗？

So if the liver is 400 grams, we could just say, okay, there's about 1,600 calories worth of-

所以如果肝脏有 400 克，我们可以说，好吧，大约有 1,600 卡路里的热量——

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Yes.

是的。

Well-

嗯-

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

of energy there.

那里的能量。

So if I go out and I do some exercise and burn 1,600 calories over time, does that mean that the liver is then completely depleted?

那么，如果我出去锻炼并随着时间的推移燃烧 1,600 卡路里，这是否意味着肝脏已完全耗尽？

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Well, the liver will deplete through an overnight fast.

嗯，肝脏会通过过夜的禁食而消耗殆尽。

So the liver maintains blood glucose, so skeletal muscle doesn't maintain blood glucose directly.

所以肝脏维持血糖，所以骨骼肌不直接维持血糖。

The way that you would leverage muscle glycogen would be through exercise.

利用肌糖原的方式是通过锻炼。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

The way in which you would deplete muscle glycogen would be through more intensive exercise.

消耗肌糖原的方法是通过更剧烈的运动。

And when you think about the foods and the way in which-- Your original question is how would we know how much muscle glycogen or how much we need to refuel?

当你考虑食物和方式时——你最初的问题是我们如何知道有多少肌肉糖原或我们需要补充多少能量？

I typically think about it as overall activity levels.

我通常将其视为整体活动水平。

So if someone is sedentary, then the current recommendation for carbohydrates would be 130 grams a day.

因此，如果某人久坐，那么目前建议的碳水化合物摄入量是每天 130 克。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Per day.

每天。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Per day.

每天。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

At four calories per gram.

每克四卡路里。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

At four calories per gram.

每克四卡路里。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And is that both simple and complex carbohydrates-

简单碳水化合物和复杂碳水化合物——

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

It-

它——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

fibrous carbohydrates?

纤维状碳水化合物？

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Yes.

是的。

It would just be overall.

这只是整体。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

130 grams.

130克。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

If they're completely sedentary.

如果他们完全久坐。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So just a little bit of walking, getting up, going to the computer, to the bathroom, to the car, et cetera, but basically sedentary.

所以只是稍微走路，起身，去电脑前，去洗手间，去汽车等等，但基本上是久坐。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Yes.

是的。

And the average American takes in 300 grams of carbohydrates a day, so more than double.

美国人平均每天摄入 300 克碳水化合物，是两倍多。

And as you can imagine, this can distort metabolism.

正如你可以想象的那样，这会扰乱新陈代谢。

When we think about glucose disposal, the way in which I think about glucose disposal if an individual is sedentary, is thinking about how many carbohydrates an individual can ingest at one time that would mitigate insulin response and would be able to be disposed of safely.

当我们考虑葡萄糖处理时，如果一个人久坐，我考虑葡萄糖处理的方式是考虑一个人一次可以摄入多少碳水化合物，这会减轻胰岛素反应并能够安全处理。

And that number is between 40 and 50 grams of carbohydrates at a meal outside of exercise.

这个数字是在运动之外的一顿饭中摄入 40 到 50 克碳水化合物。

The rest of carbohydrates would be earned through exercise, and through every hour of exercise, depending on the intensity, that could be between 40 to 70 grams, depending on how intense an individual exercises.

其余的碳水化合物将通过锻炼获得，通过每小时的锻炼（取决于强度）可能在 40 到 70 克之间，具体取决于个人锻炼的强度。

And that would be safely disposed of in a two-hour period.

两小时内即可安全处理掉。

When you think about an oral glucose tolerance test, that's a 75-gram load.

当您考虑口服葡萄糖耐量测试时，即为 75 克负荷。

You assume within two hours that that blood sugar regulation should come back to a normal range.

您假设两小时内血糖调节应该恢复到正常范围。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So at 40 to 50 grams of carbohydrate every two hours, does that mean that if somebody were to eat 40 to 50 grams of carbohydrates every two hours-

因此，每两小时摄入 40 到 50 克碳水化合物，这是否意味着如果有人每两小时吃 40 到 50 克碳水化合物——

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Which they shouldn't.

他们不应该这样做。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Which they shouldn't, right?

他们不应该这样做，对吗？

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

They don't.

他们不这样做。

They shouldn't, yeah.

他们不应该，是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But because you're going to quickly exceed that 130 grams per day, and even if exercising with resistance training, say hard for an hour, which can afford somebody maybe, what, another couple hundred, 300 grams of carbohydrates?

但是因为你每天的摄入量很快就会超过 130 克，即使进行阻力训练，比如说努力一个小时，这也许可以负担得起一些人，什么，另外几百克、300 克碳水化合物？

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Probably not that much.

可能没那么多。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Okay.

好的。

Well-

嗯-

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

I think that if people care about body composition-

我认为如果人们关心身体成分-

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

...

...

which I would say everyone should, because you want to have an appropriate level of body fat and healthy skeletal muscle, then you wouldn't necessarily, unless you're doing some kind of cardiovascular activity, you're not using a ton of muscle glycogen, depending on how much you're training.

我想说每个人都应该这样做，因为你想要拥有适当水平的身体脂肪和健康的骨骼肌，那么你不一定会使用大量的肌糖原，除非你正在进行某种心血管活动，这取决于你的训练量。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And how much glycogen is the brain using?

大脑使用了多少糖原？

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

So that is a good question.

所以这是一个好问题。

The brain uses a lot of carbohydrates.

大脑使用大量碳水化合物。

That would be-

那将是——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm

毫米

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

...

...

a primary source.

主要来源。

When they come up with the numbers of 130, it's really based on brain and then the rest of the body.

当他们想出 130 这个数字时，它实际上是基于大脑，然后是身体的其他部分。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Can we safely say that for somebody that's thinking a lot- ...

我们可以有把握地说，对于一个思考很多的人来说......

they need more carbohydrates?

他们需要更多碳水化合物吗？

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

You could say that.

你可以这么说。

Yes, your brain is very metabolically active.

是的，你的大脑新陈代谢非常活跃。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Interesting.

有趣。

So we're kind of drawing rough estimates, not knowing people's body weight, not knowing their body composition, but what I'm arriving at here is if somebody can Does a little bit of cardiovascular training, maybe a little bit of light resistance training.

因此，我们只是进行粗略的估计，不知道人们的体重，不知道他们的身体成分，但我在这里得出的是，如果有人可以做一点心血管训练，也许做一点轻微的阻力训练。

I'm describing the activities of many people out there.

我正在描述许多人的活动。

Maybe 250 grams of carbohydrates.

也许250克碳水化合物。

You're kind of at the threshold of-

你正处于——

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

That's a lot.

就这么多了。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

That's a lot.

就这么多了。

Four calories per gram of those carbohydrates.

每克这些碳水化合物含有四卡路里热量。

And so let's say 200 grams of carbohydrates per day.

假设每天摄入 200 克碳水化合物。

But that's not a ton of calories overall.

但总的来说，这并不是很多卡路里。

So what should the remainder of the calories be made up of?

那么剩下的卡路里应该由什么组成呢？

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

So, I think what we're really talking about here is how do we design a nutrition plan-

所以，我认为我们在这里真正讨论的是我们如何设计营养计划 -

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

...

...

for people to have healthy skeletal muscle.

让人们拥有健康的骨骼肌。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right.

对。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

And, if I were to say, okay, what are we thinking about for the listener or for the people out there?

而且，如果我说，好吧，我们为听众或外面的人考虑什么？

They're thinking, "I really want to have a healthy body composition and healthy skeletal muscle mass." The way in which they would do that is, number one, you have to prioritize dietary protein.

他们在想，“我真的想要拥有健康的身体成分和健康的骨骼肌质量。”他们这样做的方式是，第一，你必须优先考虑膳食蛋白质。

So we're talking about carbohydrates here, but carbohydrates shouldn't be the primary focus.

所以我们在这里谈论碳水化合物，但碳水化合物不应该是主要焦点。

Nobody has challenges getting carbohydrates in.

没有人在摄入碳水化合物方面遇到困难。

130 grams would be a safe recommendation if someone is overweight or struggles with type 2 diabetes or any of these other metabolic conditions.

如果有人超重或患有 2 型糖尿病或任何其他代谢疾病，130 克是安全的建议。

There is evidence to support a lower carbohydrate intake.

有证据支持较低的碳水化合物摄入量。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

130 grams is one little micro packet of pretzels on an airplane ride.

130 克是飞机上一小包椒盐卷饼的重量。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

So that actually has probably closer to 37 grams of carbohydrates.

所以实际上可能含有接近 37 克的碳水化合物。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Okay, good.

好的，很好。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Not that I had a pretzel packet before or threw one at Rob on the way in, but no.

并不是说我以前吃过一包椒盐卷饼，也不是在进来的时候向罗布扔了一包，但没有。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right.

对。

Okay, so I'm way off there.

好吧，那我就离那儿很远了。

So they have one of those, a bagel in the morning-

所以他们早上有一个百吉饼——

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Mm-mm

毫米-毫米

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

and they shouldn't, but they do, and then they have some pasta at dinner.

他们不应该这样做，但他们这样做了，然后他们在晚餐时吃了一些意大利面。

And so most people are probably exceeding that 130 grams by a huge margin.

因此，大多数人的体重可能大幅超过 130 克。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Yes, they are.

是的，他们是。

And there's a couple things there that it's really important that you said, is that individuals, when we're thinking about designing a plan for skeletal muscle health, that first meal is most important.

你说的有几件事非常重要，那就是，当我们考虑设计骨骼肌健康计划时，第一顿饭是最重要的。

That first meal of the day having dietary protein will set you up metabolically for the rest of the day.

一天中的第一餐含有膳食蛋白质，可以帮助您在一天的剩余时间里保持新陈代谢。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And when you say first meal, and we'll talk a little bit later about intermittent fasting and-- I, for instance, eat my first meal at usually 11:00 a.m.

当你说第一顿饭时，我们稍后会讨论间歇性禁食，例如，我通常在上午 11:00 吃第一顿饭。

It's just kind of how I'm wired.

这就是我的连线方式。

I've never wanted to eat breakfast first thing.

我从来不想第一件事就是吃早餐。

I've forced myself to eat some eggs first thing in the morning from time to time, and it felt fine.

我有时强迫自己早上第一件事就是吃一些鸡蛋，感觉很好。

But do you recommend that people eat a true breakfast, like within a certain number of hours of waking up, for sake of muscle health, and metabolic health?

但是，为了肌肉健康和代谢健康，您是否建议人们吃真正的早餐，比如在起床后的一定时间内吃早餐？

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

When we think about that first meal, I frankly don't care when you have it.

当我们想到第一顿饭时，坦率地说，我不在乎你什么时候吃它。

One also has to understand that you're coming out of an overnight fast.

人们还必须明白，您即将结束一整夜的禁食。

If you are young and healthy, then the timing of that first meal likely doesn't matter because you are robust, your body is very efficient and capable to withstand protein degradation.

如果您年轻且健康，那么第一顿饭的时间可能并不重要，因为您很强壮，您的身体非常高效并且能够承受蛋白质降解。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

It's able to withstand protein degradation and protein turnover, which is ultimately why we're eating.

它能够承受蛋白质降解和蛋白质周转，这就是我们吃东西的最终原因。

So that's one reason why we're eating, and we'll talk a little bit more about that.

这就是我们吃饭的原因之一，我们将对此进行更多讨论。

That first meal of the day, if you are young and healthy, the timing doesn't really matter.

一天中的第一顿饭，如果你年轻又健康，时间并不重要。

And I would say when it begins to matter is when you're older.

我想说的是，当你长大的时候，它才开始变得重要。

When you are in your 60s, continuing to fast may be a negative.

当你 60 多岁时，继续禁食可能会产生负面影响。

A negative for muscle health.

对肌肉健康不利。

That first meal of the day is important because we know that when you get between 40 and 50 grams of protein that first meal of the day, you stimulate muscle protein synthesis.

一天中的第一餐很重要，因为我们知道，当您在一天中的第一餐中摄入 40 至 50 克蛋白质时，就会刺激肌肉蛋白质合成。

Muscle protein synthesis is by proxy what we use to measure as a marker for overall muscle health.

肌肉蛋白质合成是我们用来衡量整体肌肉健康状况的指标。

Now, there's a lot of history here when we think about designing a meal plan.

现在，当我们考虑设计膳食计划时，这里有很多历史。

That first meal has between, we'll say, give it between 30 to 50 grams of dietary protein.

我们会说，第一顿饭提供 30 到 50 克的膳食蛋白质。

That will do a number of things.

这会做很多事情。

Number one, it will stimulate skeletal muscle, what we would consider the health of skeletal muscle.

第一，它会刺激骨骼肌，我们认为骨骼肌的健康。

It also will affect the brain.

它也会影响大脑。

It'll improve satiation.

它会提高饱腹感。

You and I were talking previously.

你和我之前谈过。

It releases a handful of gut peptides.

它释放一些肠道肽。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Like glucagon-like peptide 1, which-

就像胰高血糖素样肽 1 一样，它-

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

GLP, yes

良好实验室规范，是的

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

later we'll talk about Ozempic, Mounjaro-

稍后我们会讨论 Ozempic、Mounjaro-

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

CCK

CCK

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah

是啊

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

...

...

PYY, things that will affect appetite for that second meal.

PYY，会影响第二顿饭食欲的事情。

And there's some very interesting research out of Heather Leidy's lab, and basically, when she put individuals, younger adolescents, on a meal of 30 to 40 grams of protein, they were much less likely to choose, say, donuts or something outside of what we would consider a healthy nutrition plan.

Heather Leidy 的实验室进行了一些非常有趣的研究，基本上，当她让个人（年轻的青少年）吃 30 到 40 克蛋白质时，他们选择甜甜圈或我们认为健康的营养计划之外的东西的可能性要小得多。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Later in the day-

当天晚些时候——

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

or in the same meal?

或者在同一餐中？

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Later in the day.

当天晚些时候。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So-

所以——

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

It's essentially augmenting their willpower.

这本质上是增强他们的意志力。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Okay, so it sounds like for young people, they can delay breakfast if they want.

好吧，听起来对于年轻人来说，如果他们愿意的话，他们可以推迟吃早餐。

For older people, probably not.

对于老年人来说，可能不会。

But that the first meal of the day should include what you're calling dietary protein, 30 to 50 grams.

但一天的第一顿饭应该包括所谓的膳食蛋白质，30 到 50 克。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And maybe we should talk about the quality of that protein, because I think a lot of people understand that there are meat proteins, there are plant proteins.

也许我们应该谈谈蛋白质的质量，因为我认为很多人都知道有肉类蛋白质，有植物蛋白质。

How important is the quality of that protein?

该蛋白质的质量有多重要？

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

This tends to be a hot topic and somewhat very controversial.

这往往是一个热门话题，而且颇有争议。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Great.

太棒了。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Great for you.

非常适合你。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I know.

我知道。

Great for everybody.

对每个人来说都很棒。

Controversy on this podcast is embraced in the following way.

关于这个播客的争议通过以下方式得到解决。

We state what we know, we state what we don't know, and we are always happy to return to the conversation at a future time-

我们陈述我们所知道的，我们陈述我们不知道的，并且我们总是很乐意在将来的某个时候回到对话中-

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Fair

公平

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

to adjust any stances based on the data and how we evolve as people.

根据数据以及我们作为人的演变方式调整任何立场。

So...

所以...

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Okay.

好的。

Well, I love that.

嗯，我喜欢那个。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Dietary protein, we speak about it as if it's one thing, but actually it's 20 different amino acids.

膳食蛋白质，我们谈论它时好像它是一回事，但实际上它是 20 种不同的氨基酸。

Nine of which are essential, the rest we can generate in our body.

其中九种是必需的，其余的我们可以在体内产生。

And when we think about skeletal muscle, we think about the essential amino acids, and the essential amino acids primarily for skeletal muscle health are the branched-chain amino acids, leucine being one of those.

当我们想到骨骼肌时，我们会想到必需氨基酸，而主要维持骨骼肌健康的必需氨基酸是支链氨基酸，亮氨酸就是其中之一。

So leucine is uniquely stimulating to skeletal muscle.

因此亮氨酸对骨骼肌有独特的刺激作用。

And when you have enough leucine, it triggers muscle protein synthesis.

当你有足够的亮氨酸时，它会触发肌肉蛋白质的合成。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And when you say stimulating and muscle protein synthesis, I think a lot of people get a picture in their mind of a muscle growing, but-

当你说刺激和肌肉蛋白质合成时，我想很多人脑海中都会浮现出肌肉生长的画面，但是-

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

No

否

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

you're not necessarily talking about that.

你不一定是在谈论这个。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

No.

不。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You're talking about the organ that is muscle-

你说的是肌肉器官-

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

that its health, its metabolism being cultivated so that it can do all the hormone endocrine-related things and the glucose disposal-related things that we'll get into in a bit more detail later.

它的健康，它的新陈代谢得到了培养，这样它就可以完成所有与激素内分泌相关的事情以及与葡萄糖处理相关的事情，我们稍后将详细介绍。

Is that right?

是这样吗？

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Yeah.

是的。

And so when you have a breakfast of 30 to 50 grams, you appropriately stimulate muscle protein synthesis, and one has to recognize that if you eat below that threshold, you do not stimulate the health of that skeletal muscle.

因此，当您吃 30 至 50 克的早餐时，您就会适当地刺激肌肉蛋白质的合成，并且必须认识到，如果您吃得低于该阈值，则不会刺激骨骼肌的健康。

You do not stimulate muscle in a way that would be necessary for outcomes that matter.

您不会以达到重要结果所必需的方式刺激肌肉。

And outcomes that matter are sarcopenia.

重要的结果是肌肉减少症。

Outcomes that matter are body composition, prevention of obesity.

重要的结果是身体成分、预防肥胖。

You must get this nutrition right.

您必须获得正确的营养。

It's the thing that 100% of people do, is eat.

100%的人都会做的事情就是吃。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

As many of you know, I've been taking AG1 for more than 10 years now, so I'm delighted that they're sponsoring this podcast.

你们很多人都知道，我服用 AG1 已有 10 多年了，所以我很高兴他们赞助这个播客。

To be clear, I don't take AG1 because they're a sponsor.

需要明确的是，我选择 AG1 并不是因为他们是赞助商。

Rather, they are a sponsor because I take AG1.

相反，他们是赞助商，因为我选择了 AG1。

In fact, I take AG1 once and often twice every single day, and I've done that since starting way back in 2012.

事实上，我每天服用一次 AG1，经常服用两次，早在 2012 年我就开始这样做了。

There is so much conflicting information out there nowadays about what proper nutrition is, but here's what there seems to be a general consensus on.

关于什么是适当的营养，现在有很多相互矛盾的信息，但以下是似乎达成的普遍共识。

Whether you're an omnivore, a carnivore, a vegetarian, or a vegan, I think it's generally agreed that you should get most of your food from unprocessed or minimally processed sources, which allows you to eat enough but not overeat, get plenty of vitamins and minerals, probiotics, and micronutrients that we all need for physical and mental health.

无论你是杂食动物、肉食动物、素食主义者还是纯素食主义者，我认为人们普遍认为你应该从未经加工或最低限度加工的来源获取大部分食物，这样你就可以吃得足够但不过量，获得充足的维生素和矿物质、益生菌和微量营养素，这些都是我们身心健康所需的。

Now, I personally am an omnivore, and I strive to get most of my food from unprocessed or minimally processed sources.

现在，我个人是杂食动物，我努力从未加工或最低限度加工的来源获取大部分食物。

But the reason I still take AG1 once and often twice every day is that it ensures I get all of those vitamins, minerals, probiotics, et cetera, but it also has adaptogens to help me cope with stress.

但我仍然每天服用一次 AG1（通常是两次）的原因是它可以确保我获得所有维生素、矿物质、益生菌等，而且它还含有适应原来帮助我应对压力。

It's basically a nutritional insurance policy meant to augment, not replace, quality food.

它基本上是一项营养保险政策，旨在增强而不是取代优质食品。

So by drinking a serving of AG1 in the morning and again in the afternoon or evening, I cover all of my foundational nutritional needs.

因此，通过早上喝一份 AG1，然后在下午或晚上再喝一次，我就可以满足我所有的基本营养需求。

And I, like so many other people that take AG1, report feeling much better in a number of important ways, such as energy levels, digestion, sleep, and more.

和许多其他服用 AG1 的人一样，我报告在许多重要方面感觉好多了，例如能量水平、消化、睡眠等。

So while many supplements out there are really directed towards obtaining one specific outcome, AG1 is foundational nutrition designed to support all aspects of wellbeing related to mental health and physical health.

因此，虽然许多补充剂实际上是为了获得一种特定的结果，但 AG1 是基础营养，旨在支持与心理健康和身体健康相关的各个方面的福祉。

If you'd like to try AG1, you can go to drinkag1.com/huberman to claim a special offer.

如果您想尝试 AG1，可以访问 Drinkag1.com/huberman 申请特别优惠。

They'll give you five free travel packs with your order, plus a year's supply of vitamin D3 K2.

您订购后，他们将赠送 5 个免费旅行套装，以及一年的维生素 D3 K2。

Again, that's drinkag1.com/huberman.

再说一遍，这是 Drinkag1.com/huberman。

It's great that we're focusing on muscle and then referring to obesity because I think so many people, virtually everybody thinks, "Okay, reduce body fat.

很高兴我们关注肌肉，然后提到肥胖，因为我认为很多人，几乎每个人都认为，“好吧，减少身体脂肪。

How do you do that?" You get the calories in, calories out equation in a certain direction.

你是怎么做到的？”您可以按某个方向获得卡路里摄入量和卡路里消耗量方程式。

And by the way, I believe in the law of thermodynamics-

顺便说一句，我相信热力学定律——

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

and calories in, calories out.

卡路里输入，卡路里输出。

But by focusing on muscle protein synthesis and muscle health through the ingestion of quality protein early in the day, I see that you're entering this all through a different channel, but at the endpoints of reduced body fat, et cetera, as we'll get into later, one can still arrive there.

但是，通过在一天的早些时候摄入优质蛋白质来关注肌肉蛋白质合成和肌肉健康，我发现你正在通过不同的渠道进入这一切，但在减少身体脂肪等的终点，正如我们稍后会讨论的那样，人们仍然可以到达那里。

So just for practical purposes, what are some excellent sources of quality protein for that first meal?

那么，出于实用目的，第一餐有哪些优质蛋白质的优质来源呢？

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Well, now the quality of protein is defined by the amino acid composition.

好吧，现在蛋白质的质量是由氨基酸组成来定义的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

And typically, animal-based proteins have higher quality.

通常，动物蛋白具有更高的质量。

These are hard, fast biological numbers.

这些都是硬性的、快速的生物数字。

The dietary protein in, say, a steak is very similar to the protein amino acid in skeletal muscle.

例如，牛排中的膳食蛋白质与骨骼肌中的蛋白质氨基酸非常相似。

So the quality of the proteins like eggs, like whey protein, like beef, like poultry, those compositions are similar to the human body composition.

所以蛋白质的质量就像鸡蛋、乳清蛋白、牛肉、家禽一样，这些成分与人体成分相似。

So they contain the amino acids in the appropriate ratios for skeletal muscle health.

因此，它们含有适当比例的氨基酸，有利于骨骼肌健康。

Now, plant-based proteins have a different composition, and they have a composition obviously similar to plants.

现在，植物蛋白具有不同的成分，并且它们的成分与植物明显相似。

And one can get enough of the essential amino acids if the total caloric load of that protein is high enough.

如果蛋白质的总热量足够高，人们就可以获得足够的必需氨基酸。

And I think that that's important to recognize because right now the American diet is 70% plant-based, and we seem to be moving more towards a plant-based diet.

我认为认识到这一点很重要，因为目前美国饮食 70% 是植物性的，而且我们似乎正在更多地转向植物性饮食。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Is that right?

是这样吗？

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

It is.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I know there's sort of a movement toward that.

我知道有人正在朝这个方向努力。

You hear about plant-based, but so most people are not eating steak and eggs for breakfast.

你听说过植物性食品，但大多数人早餐不吃牛排和鸡蛋。

We know that.

我们知道这一点。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Well, most people, when I say a 70% plant-based diet, I'm talking about refined carbohydrates, sugars-

好吧，大多数人，当我说 70% 植物性饮食时，我指的是精制碳水化合物、糖——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Cereals

谷物

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

...

...

refined oils.

精炼油。

And when we think about it, so 70% of our diet comes from that, where 30% comes from animal-based proteins, which contain a ton of nutrients like bioavailable zinc and selenium, B12.

仔细想想，我们的饮食中 70% 来自动物性蛋白质，其中 30% 来自动物性蛋白质，其中含有大量营养物质，如生物可利用的锌和硒、维生素 B12。

But when it comes to muscle health, one could, as long as they are thinking about making sure that the overall protein load is high enough in that plant-based protein.

但当谈到肌肉健康时，只要他们考虑确保植物性蛋白质中的总体蛋白质含量足够高，就可以。

For example, one would not choose quinoa as a protein source.

例如，人们不会选择藜麦作为蛋白质来源。

So six cups of quinoa would equal the same as one small chicken breast when it comes to an amino acid profile.

因此，就氨基酸组成而言，六杯藜麦相当于一小块鸡胸肉。

So I think one has to be aware that plant-based proteins typically have carbohydrates that ride along with them, and that just becomes important for overall metabolic control when we think about total caloric load and total carbohydrates.

因此，我认为人们必须意识到，植物性蛋白质通常含有碳水化合物，当我们考虑总热量负荷和总碳水化合物时，这对于整体代谢控制变得很重要。

Someone could use a rice pea blend of protein for that first meal.

有人可以在第一顿饭中使用蛋白质的米豌豆混合物。

That would certainly be sufficient.

这当然就足够了。

Certainly, if someone is geared towards a more plant-based diet and doesn't want to consume animal proteins, that's what I would use

当然，如果有人更倾向于植物性饮食并且不想消耗动物蛋白，那么我会使用

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Is there any evidence that combining a high-quality protein with carbohydrate in that first meal is more or less beneficial than having the protein alone?

是否有任何证据表明，在第一餐中将优质蛋白质与碳水化合物结合起来比单独摄入蛋白质或多或少有益？

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

That's a good question.

这是个好问题。

I would say that we don't have evidence for that, that it would be more beneficial because the question would be, what is the benefit that we're looking for?

我想说，我们没有证据证明这会更有益，因为问题是，我们正在寻找的好处是什么？

If the benefit that one is looking for is diversity, then certainly, because we know carbohydrates can have fiber, phytonutrients, if you're going to combine it with berries, that could certainly be advantageous, but not necessary.

如果人们寻求的好处是多样性，那么当然，因为我们知道碳水化合物可以含有纤维和植物营养素，如果你打算将其与浆果结合起来，这肯定是有利的，但不是必需的。

What becomes interesting is when we think about designing a diet, does that second meal matter?

有趣的是，当我们考虑设计饮食时，第二顿饭重要吗？

And not to get too technical, but maybe we could get a little technical here-

不要太技术性，但也许我们可以在这里了解一点技术性-

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Sure

当然可以

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

...

...

is that when you stimulate muscle protein synthesis, that will last about two to three hours.

是当你刺激肌肉蛋白质合成时，这将持续大约两到三个小时。

Now, the next thing one would think is, well, I know that I need a certain amount of protein for overall muscle health.

现在，人们会想到的下一件事是，嗯，我知道我需要一定量的蛋白质来维持整体肌肉健康。

The amount of protein for overall muscle health could be anywhere from one gram per pound ideal body weight to lower.

维持整体肌肉健康所需的蛋白质含量可以从每磅理想体重一克到更低。

And when we think about how we are designing a diet, we have to recognize that the current recommendations are the minimum to prevent a deficiency.

当我们考虑如何设计饮食时，我们必须认识到，当前的建议是防止缺乏的最低限度。

The way in which diets are designed now, according to the RDA, is 0.8 grams per kg.

根据 RDA，现在的饮食设计方式是每公斤 0.8 克。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

0.8 grams of protein per kilogram of body weight.

每公斤体重0.8克蛋白质。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Which comes out-

结果出来了——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Total body weight.

总体重。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Yes, which comes out to be 0.37 grams per pound.

是的，结果是每磅 0.37 克。

So if someone was a 115-pound female, that current RDA would be 45 grams of protein.

因此，如果某人是一名 115 磅重的女性，则当前的 RDA 将为 45 克蛋白质。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Way below what we talked about earlier.

远低于我们之前谈到的。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Right.

对。

And these are very important concepts to understand the foundations of how we think about dietary protein.

这些是理解我们如何看待膳食蛋白质的基础的非常重要的概念。

The current RDA, which is a minimum to prevent a deficiency, is based on nitrogen balance.

目前的每日推荐摄入量（RDA）是防止营养缺乏的最低限度，以氮平衡为基础。

Nitrogen balance-- And by the way, the recommendations for protein that were set in the '80s have not changed.

氮平衡——顺便说一下，80 年代制定的蛋白质建议并没有改变。

Which means one of two things, we haven't had new science come out, or we just haven't recognized the importance of protein.

这意味着两件事之一，我们还没有出现新的科学，或者我们只是没有认识到蛋白质的重要​​性。

And I think that it's more likely the latter, that we have not yet recognized, even though there's a plethora of data.

我认为更有可能是后者，尽管有大量数据，但我们尚未认识到这一点。

And I worked on some of these earlier studies, which I'll share.

我参与了其中一些早期研究，我将与大家分享。

I even brought the numbers to make sure that I said them right, because this is the "Huberman Lab" podcast.

我什至带来了这些数字，以确保我说的是正确的，因为这是“Huberman Lab”播客。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Well, I've made numerical errors before on the podcast, but great that you brought the numbers.

好吧，我之前在播客上犯过数字错误，但很高兴你带来了这些数字。

We always try and correct any errors, but great to be precise the first time, so thank you.

我们总是尝试纠正任何错误，但第一次就能够准确地表达出来真是太好了，所以谢谢。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

So, when we think about how we design a diet for optimal muscle health is very different than how we design a diet for, again, just life.

因此，当我们考虑如何设计实现最佳肌肉健康的饮食时，与我们如何设计饮食以保证生活是非常不同的。

And the two are very different.

而且两者非常不同。

The RDA for leucine, which is that essential amino acid, meaning we cannot make it, we must get it from the diet, is set at 2.7 grams per day.

亮氨酸是一种必需氨基酸，这意味着我们无法制造它，我们必须从饮食中获取它，其每日推荐摄入量被设定为每天 2.7 克。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

That's a trivial amount.

这是一个微不足道的数额。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

That is a trivial amount, and-

这是一个微不足道的数额，而且——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

2.7 grams-

2.7克-

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

2.7-

2.7-

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

total per day

每天总计

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

...

...

per day.

每天。

And one must understand that this came from nitrogen balance studies, and typically those are young men, 18-year-old men.

人们必须明白，这是来自氮平衡研究，而且通常是年轻男性，18 岁的男性。

That does not support healthy aging or anyone that is struggling with obesity or any kind of chronic illness or anything.

这不支持健康老龄化或任何与肥胖或任何慢性疾病或任何疾病作斗争的人。

And so then when we begin to think, well, what do we actually need, the evidence would support two to three times that amount, closer to nine grams of leucine per day.

因此，当我们开始思考我们真正需要什么时，证据将支持该数量的两到三倍，接近每天 9 克亮氨酸。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And just to calibrate us, nine grams of leucine, which again is an essential amino acid we can only get from food, per day.

为了校准我们，每天需要九克亮氨酸，这又是我们只能从食物中获取的必需氨基酸。

What does that equate to in terms of the total amount of, let's say, egg or steak protein that one would need to eat in order to ensure that?

为了确保这一点，就需要吃鸡蛋或牛排蛋白质的总量而言，这相当于什么？

Just roughly.

只是大概。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Yes.

是的。

Wonderful question.

很棒的问题。

So there's a meal threshold for skeletal muscle health, and that meal threshold is a minimum of 30 grams.

因此，骨骼肌健康有一个进餐阈值，该进餐阈值至少为 30 克。

Now, that would equal a 4.5-ounce steak, dare I say six eggs, which is a lot of eggs at one time, or a scoop of whey protein.

现在，这相当于一块 4.5 盎司的牛排，我敢说六个鸡蛋，这是一次很多鸡蛋，或者一勺乳清蛋白。

A scoop of whey protein might have 18 grams of protein and 2.5 grams of leucine.

一勺乳清蛋白可能含有 18 克蛋白质和 2.5 克亮氨酸。

Maybe you do a 25-gram whey protein shake.

也许您会喝 25 克乳清蛋白奶昔。

And that becomes important to understand because it is a meal threshold amount.

理解这一点变得很重要，因为它是膳食阈值。

The reason why I was so excited to come on this podcast is because I think that if we can correct our nutrition and we gear it towards skeletal muscle health, then we can change the trajectory of aging, and we can stop focusing on obesity and really focus on skeletal muscle health.

我之所以如此兴奋地参加这个播客，是因为我认为，如果我们能够纠正我们的营养，并将其调整到骨骼肌健康，那么我们就可以改变衰老的轨迹，我们就可以停止关注肥胖，真正关注骨骼肌健康。

But the only way that we're going to do that is if we get this nutrition right.

但我们要做到这一点的唯一方法是获得正确的营养。

Because skeletal muscle requires dietary protein.

因为骨骼肌需要膳食蛋白质。

There's only two main ways that we can stimulate skeletal muscle, and that is through exercise, primarily resistance training, and dietary protein.

我们可以通过两种主要方式刺激骨骼肌，那就是通过运动（主要是阻力训练）和膳食蛋白质。

And so when we think about how we design a diet, if you look back at the history, we have to recognize a handful of things.

因此，当我们思考如何设计饮食时，如果回顾历史，我们必须认识到一些事情。

Number one, that these essential amino acids, primarily leucine, is necessary to trigger muscle protein synthesis, number one.

第一，这些必需氨基酸（主要是亮氨酸）是触发肌肉蛋白质合成所必需的，第一。

Number two, that aging impairs the efficiency of muscle protein synthesis.

第二，衰老会损害肌肉蛋白质合成的效率。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I see.

我明白了。

So it's a runaway train.

所以这是一列失控的火车。

If you start getting sarcopenia, if there's obesity and other markers of aging, I realize obesity can occur at young ages too, but muscle loss, then basically you're losing muscle quality, AKA protein synthesis and other things, and as a consequence, it makes it harder to increase muscle quality.

如果你开始出现肌肉减少症，如果存在肥胖和其他衰老标志，我意识到肥胖也可能发生在年轻时，但是肌肉损失，那么基本上你会失去肌肉质量，也就是蛋白质合成和其他东西，因此，增加肌肉质量变得更加困难。

So you have to short-circuit this pretty early.

所以你必须尽早将其短路。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Yes, and I would even say that we talk about sarcopenia as a disease of aging, but I think that there is a youthful phenotype of sarcopenia.

是的，我什至会说，我们将肌肉减少症视为一种衰老疾病，但我认为肌肉减少症有一种年轻的表型。

If we define sarcopenia as decreased muscle mass and strength, that can easily affect our youth.

如果我们将肌肉减少症定义为肌肉质量和力量下降，那么很容易影响我们的青春。

We talk about health span, we talk about lifespan.

我们谈论健康寿命，我们谈论寿命。

There's also muscle span.

还有肌肉跨度。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Hmm.

嗯。

Interesting.

有趣的。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

And muscle span is this concept that is really about the skeletal muscle health as we age.

肌肉跨度这个概念实际上与我们年龄增长时骨骼肌的健康有关。

And there's three primary components to that.

其中包括三个主要组成部分。

That's understanding that skeletal muscle health begins very early on.

也就是说，骨骼肌健康很早就开始了。

And we're going to talk about Because I know that there's parents.

我们要讨论的是因为我知道有父母。

I have two little kids, so I want to talk about the amount of protein necessary for children, of course.

我有两个小孩，所以我当然想谈谈儿童所需的蛋白质含量。

And then as we think about this muscle span, there is early on, early age, where you're laying down the foundation, where you're hopefully training, doing exercise, just doing movement.

然后当我们考虑这个肌肉跨度时，在早期，早期，你正在打基础，你希望在那里训练，做运动，只是做运动。

Being sedentary is a disease state in and of itself.

久坐本身就是一种疾病状态。

Period, end of story.

期间，故事结束。

Being sedentary is not the opposite of activity.

久坐并不与活动相反。

Being sedentary is in and of itself a disease of inactivity.

久坐本身就是一种缺乏活动的疾病。

Then midlife, we have to maintain the tissue.

那么到了中年，我们就必须维护组织。

We get a peak muscle mass in our 30s.

我们的肌肉量在 30 多岁时达到峰值。

We get a peak bone mass around the same time.

我们大约在同一时间达到峰值骨量。

And then that later half of life, we have to do everything that we can to maintain that tissue because of this decrease in efficiency of skeletal muscle.

然后在生命的后半段，由于骨骼肌效率的下降，我们必须尽一切努力来维持该组织。

So skeletal muscle, as a nutrient-sensing organ, can respond like youthful tissue, and the way that it responds like youthful tissue from an amino acid perspective, just thinking about how we eat to maintain that, is that when we increase our dietary protein, so older individuals, or individuals as they age require more protein to then stimulate mTOR.

因此，骨骼肌作为一种营养感应器官，可以像年轻组织一样做出反应，从氨基酸的角度来看，它像年轻组织一样做出反应，只要想想我们如何饮食来维持这一点，就是当我们增加膳食蛋白质时，老年人或随着年龄增长的个人需要更多的蛋白质来刺激 mTOR。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So does that mean instead of eating 30 grams of protein per meal minimum, that people older than, say, 50, 60 should eat 40 or 50 grams of protein?

那么，这是否意味着年龄超过 50 岁、60 岁的人应该吃 40 或 50 克蛋白质，而不是每餐至少吃 30 克蛋白质？

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

I would say that that's true.

我想说那是真的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Interesting.

有趣。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

And by the way, skeletal muscle will mount a youthful response.

顺便说一句，骨骼肌会产生年轻的反应。

The initial work was out of Bob Wolfe's lab.

最初的工作是在鲍勃·沃尔夫的实验室进行的。

He's an icon in the industry of protein.

他是蛋白质行业的偶像。

He's one of the, can I say grandfathers now?

他是其中之一，我现在可以说他是祖父吗？

That's pretty embarrassing.

这真是太尴尬了。

And when I think about Bob Wolfe and Don Layman and these guys, I trained with Dr. Donald Layman.

当我想到鲍勃·沃尔夫（Bob Wolfe）和唐·雷曼（Don Layman）以及这些人时，我和唐纳德·雷曼博士一起训练。

These initial studies that we think about and we take for granted dietary protein.

我们考虑并认为这些初步研究是理所当然的膳食蛋白质。

We think, okay, well, the bros have always known this, but we have not.

我们想，好吧，兄弟们一直都知道这一点，但我们却不知道。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

And when you are younger, there is somewhat of a linear response.

当你年轻时，会有某种程度的线性反应。

Let's say a younger individual still growing, we'll just call them 10, 12 years old or my children.

假设一个还在成长的年轻个体，我们就称他们为 10 岁、12 岁或我的孩子。

I have a three and a four-and-a-half-year-old.

我有一个三岁和一个四岁半的孩子。

They will respond with five grams of dietary protein, 10 grams of dietary protein, 15 grams of dietary protein, versus an older individual will not respond at all to that.

他们会对 5 克膳食蛋白质、10 克膳食蛋白质、15 克膳食蛋白质做出反应，而老年人对此根本不会做出反应。

However, that response can be augmented by increasing the dietary protein at that meal.

然而，可以通过增加该餐的膳食蛋白质来增强这种反应。

So an older individual will respond like a younger individual by 30 grams of protein, 30 to 50.

因此，老年人对 30 克蛋白质（30 到 50 克）的反应与年轻人一样。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Later we're going to talk about supplements, but I'm very curious, is there a place for supplementing leucine and other branched-chain amino acids specifically?

后面我们要讲补充，但是我很好奇，有没有专门补充亮氨酸和其他支链氨基酸的地方？

I always assumed that supplementing with branched-chain amino acids was kind of the unique domain of people post-exercise trying to build more muscle.

我一直认为补充支链氨基酸是人们在运动后试图增强肌肉的独特领域。

But as you're telling me all this, it seems that adding leucine in powder form to a meal seems like it would be great for muscle health.

但正如你告诉我的这一切，似乎在膳食中添加粉末形式的亮氨酸似乎对肌肉健康很有好处。

Is that true?

这是真的吗？

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

I would say that we do not add leucine alone.

我想说我们不单独添加亮氨酸。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Okay.

好的。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Because leucine, isoleucine, and valine go hand in hand.

因为亮氨酸、异亮氨酸和缬氨酸齐头并进。

It would not be advisable to add a single amino acid.

不建议添加单一氨基酸。

The amino acid levels are maintained in the blood.

血液中的氨基酸水平得以维持。

By adding more of one would have effects on the other.

添加更多的其中一种会对另一种产生影响。

The way in which I would think about supplementing essential amino acids and/or branched-chains would be if an individual is choosing to have a lower protein meal.

如果一个人选择摄入较低的蛋白质膳食，我会考虑补充必需氨基酸和/或支链。

I remember when I was in residency, the food choices were not very good, and maybe I had two ounces of fish, which wasn't enough to bring me up to a threshold.

我记得当我住院医师的时候，食物的选择不是很好，也许我吃了两盎司鱼，这还不足以让我达到一个门槛。

That would be a place that I would add in branched-chain amino acids or essential amino acids.

那将是我添加支链氨基酸或必需氨基酸的地方。

That would bring someone's amino acid threshold up.

这会提高某人的氨基酸阈值。

But we have to understand everything that we're doing, we should be doing with a purpose.

但我们必须了解我们所做的一切，我们应该有目的地做。

The idea of just sipping on branched-chain amino acids or just adding amino acids would be the equivalent of putting a key into a car and trying to turn the car on, but not having any additional substrate.

仅饮用支链氨基酸或仅添加氨基酸的想法相当于将钥匙插入汽车并试图打开汽车，但没有任何额外的基质。

So you need the full spectrum of all the amino acids to affect skeletal muscle health.

因此，您需要所有氨基酸的全谱来影响骨骼肌健康。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah, well, that's reassuring to hear because I love the taste of scrambled eggs- ...

是的，嗯，听到这个消息真让人放心，因为我喜欢炒鸡蛋的味道——......

and steaks, and I also like tuna, and I also like chicken, and I love all those things.

还有牛排，我也喜欢金枪鱼，我也喜欢鸡肉，我喜欢所有这些东西。

And I have to imagine that, as you mentioned before, there are other things in these quality animal proteins like you mentioned selenium, you mentioned other perhaps essential fatty acids and other vitamins that perhaps have something to do with what the animal ingested during its life that also benefit muscle.

我必须想象，正如您之前提到的，这些优质动物蛋白中还含有其他物质，例如您提到的硒，您提到的其他可能必需的脂肪酸和其他维生素，它们可能与动物在其一生中摄入的物质有关，这些物质也有益于肌肉。

Is that true?

这是真的吗？

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

It is, and the big standout to me is creatine.

是的，对我来说最突出的是肌酸。

We know that creatine at five grams of creatine will affect skeletal muscle, but 12 grams of creatine affects brain health, and there's a lot of interesting research coming out on creatine and brain health.

我们知道 5 克肌酸会影响骨骼肌，但 12 克肌酸会影响大脑健康，并且有很多关于肌酸和大脑健康的有趣研究。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Can you remind me the rough amounts of creatine in, say, you mentioned, I must say a four-and-a-half-ounce steak feels rather paltry to me.

你能提醒我一下，你提到的肌酸的大致含量，我必须说，四盎司半的牛排对我来说微不足道。

That's probably the size of a-

这大概有一个——

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Which is a huge meal to me.

这对我来说是一顿丰盛的饭菜。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right.

对。

So let's say a six-ounce, let's be generous, a six-ounce steak or four scrambled eggs.

假设是六盎司，慷慨一点，一块六盎司的牛排或四个炒鸡蛋。

How much creatine are we talking?

我们说的是多少肌酸？

Eggs don't have much creatine, right?

鸡蛋的肌酸不多，对吧？

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Not much.

不多。

And I was just recently looking at this.

我最近才看到这个。

The amount of creatine in a pound of steak, you're going to cringe, is something like two grams.

一磅牛排中的肌酸含量，你会感到畏缩，大约是两克。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So it's not very much.

所以不是很多。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

It's not very much.

不是很多。

But when we think about eating foods as in a food matrix, what you're saying is absolutely true there It's interesting, we don't eat single nutrients.

但是，当我们考虑在食物基质中吃食物时，你所说的绝对正确。有趣的是，我们不吃单一的营养素。

While we think about dietary protein as a single nutrient, and we think about carbohydrates, but what we really do is we eat mixed meals.

虽然我们将膳食蛋白质视为单一营养素，并考虑碳水化合物，但我们真正做的是混合膳食。

And when we think about that, the quality of the protein matters.

当我们想到这一点时，蛋白质的质量很重要。

From a protein perspective, could you get plant-based proteins and animal-based proteins, and could it be equal?

从蛋白质的角度来看，植物性蛋白质和动物性蛋白质是否相同？

Yes, it could.

是的，可以。

So I want to be very clear to say, and have a very balanced perspective, that we could get all of our dietary protein from plants, from plant-based sources.

因此，我想非常明确地说，并且有一个非常平衡的观点，我们可以从植物中获取所有膳食蛋白质。

A few caveats there is that that RDA that I gave you earlier is based only on high-quality proteins, and that being the minimum to prevent a deficiency.

需要注意的是，我之前给您的 RDA 仅基于高质量蛋白质，并且这是防止缺乏的最低限度。

If an individual was plant-based, they would require closer to 1.6 grams per kg, a higher amount of total protein if it's coming from plants.

如果一个人以植物为基础，他们需要接近每公斤 1.6 克的蛋白质，如果来自植物，则需要更高的总蛋白质含量。

And that becomes important to understand.

理解这一点变得很重要。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Speaking of an ideal world, if you had a magic wand-

说到理想世界，如果你有一根魔杖——

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

I do

我愿意

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

What would be the-

会是什么-

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

My kids think I do

我的孩子们认为我这样做

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I bet you do.

我打赌你会的。

What would be the amount of protein that you would have everybody eat?

您希望每个人吃多少蛋白质？

In terms of a number of grams per pound or kilogram of body weight.

以每磅或每公斤体重的克数表示。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

That's actually an easy question.

这其实是一个简单的问题。

One gram per pound ideal body weight.

每磅理想体重一克。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Total body weight, not lean body weight.

总体重，不是去脂体重。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Ideal body weight, actually.

实际上，理想体重。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Hmm.

嗯。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Where you want to be.

你想去的地方。

If an individual is 200 pounds but would prefer to be 150 pounds, then I would have them eat towards their ideal body weight.

如果一个人体重 200 磅，但希望达到 150 磅，那么我会让他们吃到理想体重。

There's no evidence that a higher protein diet is detrimental to kidney health, to bone health.

没有证据表明高蛋白饮食对肾脏健康和骨骼健康有害。

And we use these terms loosely, like a high protein diet, when we have to recognize that 0.8 grams per kg is a low protein diet.

当我们必须认识到每公斤 0.8 克是低蛋白饮食时，我们会宽松地使用这些术语，就像高蛋白饮食一样。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So where did the idea come from that if you eat, say, one gram of quality protein per pound of ideal body weight, that you're going to get gout, you're going to have liver issues, you're going to have all sorts of issues.

那么这个想法从何而来，如果你每磅理想体重吃一克优质蛋白质，你就会患上痛风，你就会有肝脏问题，你就会有各种各样的问题。

Where did that idea come from?

这个想法从何而来？

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Frankly, I'm not sure, but the conversation around dietary protein has probably been the most controversial.

坦率地说，我不确定，但围绕膳食蛋白质的讨论可能是最具争议的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Why do you think that is?

你认为这是为什么？

I mean, we're not trying to get political here.

我的意思是，我们并不是想在这里搞政治。

I'm just so curious.

我只是很好奇。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

I do have some ideas, but I won't share them.

我确实有一些想法，但我不会分享。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Okay.

好的。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

But I-

但我——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

That's fine

没关系

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

...

...

I do feel as if nutrition is not just science.

我确实觉得营养不仅仅是科学。

Nutrition is complicated because it's something that people tie emotion to, they tie religion to.

营养很复杂，因为它与人们的情感、宗教联系在一起。

There's a lot that goes into dietary protein and food recommendations in general.

一般来说，膳食蛋白质和食物建议有很多内容。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But it sounds like we can safely say that if you eat one gram of protein per pound of ideal body weight, that you're not going to cause liver damage or get gout or increase your risk of cancer, right?

但听起来我们可以有把握地说，如果你每磅理想体重吃一克蛋白质，你就不会造成肝损伤或痛风或增加患癌症的风险，对吗？

My understanding is that even if it comes from red meat, there's no increase in risk of cancer.

我的理解是，即使它来自红肉，患癌症的风险也不会增加。

Is that right?

是这样吗？

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Well, here's what I would say to that.

好吧，这就是我要说的。

I would say that this idea about red meat and cancer, number one, we would have to even define what kind of cancers that we're talking about.

我想说，关于红肉和癌症的想法，第一，我们甚至必须定义我们正在谈论的癌症类型。

There's many different types of cancers, and there's many different causes.

癌症有许多不同类型，并且有许多不同的原因。

It would be important to understand what risk factors are, and a primary risk factor to many cancers is obesity.

了解什么是危险因素很重要，许多癌症的主要危险因素是肥胖。

The question then becomes how do we design a diet that mitigates obesity?

那么问题就变成了我们如何设计减轻肥胖的饮食？

The evidence is also very clear that a more protein-forward diet optimizes body composition, and you combine that with resistance training, and you will see a tremendous amount of change.

证据也非常清楚，更多蛋白质饮食可以优化身体成分，将其与阻力训练结合起来，你会看到巨大的变化。

I worked on some of these early studies, and I'll share with you some of the early studies, and this came out of Don Layman's lab with the University of Illinois.

我参与了其中一些早期研究，我将与大家分享一些早期研究，这些研究来自伊利诺伊大学唐·雷曼的实验室。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Both you and Lane Norton both worked there.

你和莱恩·诺顿都在那里工作过。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Yes, we-- Yes.

是的，我们——是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Did you overlap there?

你们有重叠在那里吗？

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

We did.

我们做到了。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Okay.

好的。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

And while he was-

而当他——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

What was he like?

他是什么样的人？

No, I'm just kidding.

不，我只是开玩笑。

What-

什么-

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

So let's just say he sat in the back of the class, and I sat in the front.

假设他坐在班级的后排，我坐在前排。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Okay.

好的。

All right.

好的。

There, you heard it.

在那里，你听到了。

Shots fired.

开枪了。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Yeah.

是的。

No.

不。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

And all kidding aside, Lane is like my brother.

不开玩笑了，莱恩就像我的兄弟。

We've known each other for 20-some years.

我们已经认识20多年了。

And I-

而我——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah, he's a very popular former guest on this podcast, and a very spirited guy.

是的，他是这个播客中非常受欢迎的前嘉宾，也是一个非常有活力的人。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

And I'd just like to say, I don't know why his skin looks that good, but- ...

我只想说，我不知道为什么他的皮肤看起来那么好，但是——

whatever.

无论如何。

So I worked on-

所以我致力于-

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Love you, Lane.

爱你，莱恩。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

I've worked on-- Yes, we do.

我一直致力于——是的，我们做到了。

I worked on some of these early studies, and these studies were some of the first studies to come out about dietary protein, nutrition, and resistance training.

我参与了其中一些早期研究，这些研究是最早发表的关于膳食蛋白质、营养和阻力训练的研究之一。

In fact, to my knowledge and to, I think, the knowledge of many of my colleagues, this was the first study.

事实上，据我和我的许多同事所知，这是第一项研究。

And what it was, it was a 12-month study, 130 overweight men and women.

这是一项为期 12 个月的研究，对 130 名超重男性和女性进行了研究。

So it was robust, and basically what they did is they had two groups.

所以它是强大的，基本上他们所做的是他们有两个小组。

One group was a food guide pyramid diet, so it was 55 grams of carbohydrates, a RDA of protein, which was 0.8 grams per kg, and 30% fat.

一组是食物指南金字塔饮食，即 55 克碳水化合物、RDA 蛋白质（每公斤 0.8 克）和 30% 脂肪。

30% fat was in both groups.

两组的脂肪含量均为 30%。

The second group was 40% carbohydrates.

第二组是40%的碳水化合物。

Remember the zone diet?

还记得区域饮食吗？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

40/30/30?

40/30/30？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah, I liked that diet.

是的，我喜欢那种饮食。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Okay.

好的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

I mean, there's evidence-

我的意思是，有证据——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Ish.

是的。

I mean, I don't follow it anymore, but I tried it for a little while, and seemed all right.

我的意思是，我不再关注它了，但我尝试了一段时间，看起来还不错。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

And it works great.

而且效果很好。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

And there's some evidence to support that that is a great ratio for people.

有一些证据表明，这对人们来说是一个很好的比例。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Coming off the low-fat era of the late '90s-

摆脱90年代末的低脂时代——

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

the zone diet felt like the best thing ever because it was like, oh, you can enjoy some fats, and wow, your satiety is improved, and you get stronger.

区域饮食感觉像是有史以来最好的事情，因为它就像，哦，你可以享受一些脂肪，哇，你的饱腹感得到改善，你变得更强壮。

You just feel better when you're ingesting some ideally quality fats.

当您摄入一些理想品质的脂肪时，您会感觉更好。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

That's my experience, anyway.

无论如何，这就是我的经验。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Yes, and also we know that it influences hormonal status.

是的，我们也知道它会影响荷尔蒙状态。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

You don't want to push fats too low.

你不想把脂肪压得太低。

So the second group had a 40/30/30 split.

所以第二组的比例是 40/30/30。

So it was 40 grams of carbohydrates, 30 grams of protein, 30% fat.

所以是 40 克碳水化合物、30 克蛋白质、30% 脂肪。

So these are all percentages.

所以这些都是百分比。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah, 40, 30.

是的，40、30。

40%...

40%...

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Now-

现在——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right

右

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

...

...

we didn't talk so much about the distribution, but what is really important to understand is they were isocaloric, so they both had the same calories.

我们没有过多讨论分布，但真正重要的是要了解它们是等热量的，因此它们都具有相同的卡路里。

The difference was the percentage of where the calories came from and how they were given.

差异在于卡路里来源和摄入方式的百分比。

And there was actually four different arms to this.

实际上有四个不同的手臂。

So there was individuals that exercised and individuals that didn't.

所以有些人锻炼了，有些人不锻炼。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Okay.

好的。

So either zone diet or let's call it, I hate to say this, but more standard American diet?

所以，无论是区域饮食还是我们称之为，我不想这么说，但是更标准的美国饮食呢？

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

No, it was.

不，是的。

And that's how it was designed.

这就是它的设计方式。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Standard American versus zone diet.

标准美式饮食与区域饮食。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Yes.

是的。

So it was designed that way.

所以它就是这样设计的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And then exercising or non-exercising-

然后运动或不运动——

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Correct

正确

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

for each of the-

对于每一个-

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

For this 12-month study

对于这项为期 12 个月的研究

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

each of those.

其中每一个。

Okay.

好的。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

And by the way, I had to pack a bunch of meals.

顺便说一句，我还得带一堆饭菜。

It was not pretty, and I had to do urine analysis.

这不太好，我必须进行尿液分析。

It was terrible.

太可怕了。

But anyway, that's besides the point.

但无论如何，这不是重点。

So the first group had a protein distribution of 10 grams in the morning, 15 at lunch, and 45 at dinner.

因此，第一组的蛋白质分配为早上 10 克，午餐 15 克，晚餐 45 克。

And this-

还有这个——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

That's kind of standard American diet

这就是标准的美国饮食

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

...

...

so that mirrors-

这样镜子-

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

A steak for dinner.

晚餐吃一份牛排。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Exactly.

正是如此。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah, some cereal for breakfast with a little bit of milk, and then for lunch, like a sandwich.

是的，早餐吃一些麦片加一点牛奶，然后吃午餐，比如三明治。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Exactly.

正是如此。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Uh-huh.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

And so this mirrors what people do.

这反映了人们的行为。

The other group had 45 grams of protein at that first meal.

另一组在第一餐中摄入了 45 克蛋白质。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Five, six eggs.

五六个鸡蛋。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Five, six eggs.

五六个鸡蛋。

Thirty-five grams of protein at lunch and 35 grams of protein at dinner.

午餐35克蛋白质，晚餐35克蛋白质。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So chicken breast and a salad at lunch with a little piece of toast.

所以午餐时吃鸡胸肉和沙拉，再加上一小片吐司。

And then at dinner, how much?

然后晚餐的时候，多少钱？

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

It was 35 grams.

重量是 35 克。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

All right.

好吧。

A piece of fish and some rice and a vegetable.

一块鱼、一些米饭和一份蔬菜。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

But it was an even distribution.

但这是均匀分布的。

So what you're seeing here is now these meals are meeting a leucine threshold of muscle protein synthesis.

所以你现在看到的是这些食物达到了肌肉蛋白质合成的亮氨酸阈值。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Now, this is collectively 130 individuals, and they were older.

现在，这群人总共有 130 人，而且他们的年龄都比较大。

I think that they were all in their 40s or beyond.

我认为他们都在 40 多岁或以上。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

If we just compare first the groups that did not exercise, two different diets.

如果我们首先比较没有锻炼的组，即两种不同的饮食。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

What did they see?

他们看到了什么？

What did you see?

你看到了什么？

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

So every-

所以每一个——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You participated in this study.

您参与了这项研究。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Yeah, unfort-

是啊，不幸的是——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Yes, I did, and I would say unfortunately.

是的，我做到了，而且我想说的是不幸的是。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You almost said unfortunately.

你差点就说不幸了。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

No, I won't.

不，我不会。

But what was so interesting is that those individuals, everybody lost weight.

但有趣的是，这些人，每个人都减肥了。

So the average weight loss, gosh, I wish I had better handwriting, but I'm a doctor, and so it's pretty bad.

所以平均体重减轻了，天哪，我希望我能写得更好，但我是一名医生，所以这很糟糕。

The average weight loss was 24% greater in the high-protein group.

高蛋白组的平均体重减轻了 24%。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Okay.

好的。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

So they lost 24%.

所以他们损失了24%。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And you said it was isocaloric between the two groups.

你说两组之间是等热量的。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

That's right.

没错。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But was it subcaloric overall?

但总体来说是低热量的吗？

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

It was.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Meaning people were ingesting-

意味着人们正在摄入-

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

It was five-- That's very smart.

是五——这非常聪明。

Yes, it was 500 calories less.

是的，少了 500 卡路里。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Than what they needed to maintain body weight.

超过了他们维持体重所需的量。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

A day.

一天。

Correct.

正确的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Okay, got it.

好的，明白了。

So 24% more-

所以多了 24%-

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Yep

是的

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

weight loss total.

总共减重。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Total.

总计。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

In the group that distributed their protein evenly and followed the so-called-

在均匀分布蛋白质并遵循所谓的-

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Yes

是的

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

zone diet, 40-30-30.

区域饮食，40-30-30。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

And they lost more fat than the high-carbohydrate group.

而且他们比高碳水化合物组减掉了更多的脂肪。

So the high-protein group lost a total of 16 pounds, versus the calorie-controlled group lost 11 pounds.

因此，高蛋白组总共减掉了 16 磅，而热量控制组则减掉了 11 磅。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Of fat.

脂肪的。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Of fat, which is great.

脂肪，这很棒。

Everyone's at home thinking, "This is wonderful."

每个人都在家里想，“这太棒了。”

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Isocaloric.

等热量的。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Isocaloric, but the thing here is the lean body mass change.

等热量，但这里的问题是去脂体重的变化。

So again, this was done using DEXA, and we know DEXA only looks at lean body mass.

再说一次，这是使用 DEXA 完成的，我们知道 DEXA 只关注去脂体重。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You mentioned DEXA earlier.

您之前提到过 DEXA。

Just very briefly, how does DEXA work?

简单来说，DEXA 是如何工作的？

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

It's a-

这是一个——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Not at a mechanistic level.

不是机械层面的。

What does it look like?

它看起来像什么？

I go into the clinic.

我走进诊所。

Am I floating in water?

我是浮在水里吗？

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

No, you get scanned.

不，你会被扫描。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Am I holding-- I'm holding the paddles?

我拿着——我拿着桨吗？

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Well, you might be because you're Andrew Huberman, but-

好吧，你可能是因为你是安德鲁·休伯曼，但是——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

No, but-

不，但是——

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Yes

是的

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

you hold the paddles, and you're standing on something.

你拿着桨，你站在某个东西上。

What's it index?

它的索引是什么？

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

So a DEXA, depending on the machine, you can just lay on this machine, and it's a dual X-ray, and it measures bone-

所以 DEXA，根据机器的不同，你可以躺在这台机器上，它是双 X 射线，它可以测量骨 -

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

...

...

fat, and then lean body mass with a tablet.

脂肪，然后用片剂测量瘦体重。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Okay, that's sufficient for this conversation.

好的，本次对话就足够了。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Great.

太棒了。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

So the lean body mass loss, and again, this is everything other than bone and body fat.

所以，瘦体重的损失，再说一次，这是除了骨骼和身体脂肪之外的一切。

So that was 34%.

所以是 34%。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

In which group?

在哪个组？

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

In the standard American diet group.

在标准美国饮食组中。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Okay.

好的。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Versus 26% in the high-protein group.

而高蛋白组的这一比例为 26%。

Now, where it gets fascinating, so what the big takeaway is, is understanding that protein had a sparing effect.

现在，它变得令人着迷，所以最重要的一点是，了解蛋白质具有节约作用。

Just-

只是——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Protein protected muscle.

蛋白质保护肌肉。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

More body fat loss.

体内脂肪减少更多。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

At the same caloric amounts.

在相同的热量下。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Same amount of deficit relative to body weight.

相对于体重的相同程度的赤字。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Right.

对。

In this group, exercise was not introduced.

在该组中，没有引入运动。

So this was purely the food guide pyramid, changing protein in the morning versus having it at two small meals and then having it at dinner.

所以这纯粹是食物指南金字塔，在早上改变蛋白质，而不是在两顿小餐中摄入，然后在晚餐时摄入。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And did they emphasize what we're calling high-quality protein?

他们是否强调了我们所说的优质蛋白质？

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

They did.

他们做到了。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Okay.

好的。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

That is also very important.

这也是非常重要的。

They did.

他们做到了。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Meat, fish, eggs-

肉、鱼、蛋——

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Yes

是的

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

chicken, et cetera.

鸡等等。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Yes.

是的。

They did.

他们做到了。

So then this led to another study.

于是这就引发了另一项研究。

So then the second study was a two-by-two design, and this is where-

所以第二个研究是一个二乘二的设计，这就是——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Oh, sorry.

哦，抱歉。

Sorry to interrupt.

抱歉打扰。

In that previous study, what was the effect of exercise between the two groups?

在之前的研究中，两组人的运动效果如何？

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

So we didn't-- They didn't do exercise in this one.

所以我们没有——他们没有在这一项中进行练习。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Got it.

明白了。

Okay.

好的。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Sorry, that was my fault.

抱歉，那是我的错。

They did not do exercise.

他们没有做运动。

They were just-

他们只是——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

No problem

没问题

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

...

...

doing whatever it was that they were doing.

做他们正在做的事情。

But what was so important to understand was that this set the stage for this idea that protein had a sparing effect.

但重要的是要理解，这为蛋白质具有节约作用的观点奠定了基础。

And then following that, the other study, so then there was a series of a few other studies.

接下来是另一项研究，然后还有一系列其他研究。

The second study looked at diet and exercise, so this combined effect.

第二项研究着眼于饮食和运动，以及这种综合效应。

So this was one of the first studies, and this was 48 women with a BMI of 33, 46 years old.

这是最早的研究之一，对象是 48 名 BMI 为 33、46 岁的女性。

So this is your post, peri/post-menopausal woman who was either in one of four treatment groups, a low-protein group, low protein with exercise, high protein, high protein with exercise.

这是您的绝经后妇女，她属于四个治疗组之一：低蛋白组、低蛋白运动组、高蛋白组、高蛋白运动组。

The low-protein group was defined as the RDA, .8 grams.

低蛋白质组定义为 RDA，0.8 克。

The high-protein group was defined as 1.6 grams kg.

高蛋白组定义为1.6克/千克。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So starting to approach that one gram-

所以开始接近一克-

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Yes

是的

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

per pound ideal body-

每磅理想身材-

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

It's about 0.7 grams-

大约是0.7克——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah, so starting to get there-

是的，所以开始到达那里-

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

...

...

per pound

每磅

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

but not quite there, yeah.

但不完全在那里，是的。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

So this was a 16 weeks study, and what they found overall was that the high-protein group lost 18% more body fat and 25% less lean mass overall, and 12% more total body weight.

这是一项为期 16 周的研究，他们总体发现，高蛋白组的体脂减少了 18%，瘦体重减少了 25%，总体重增加了 12%。

And so now we start moving into this synergistic effect of dietary protein and resistance training.

所以现在我们开始研究膳食蛋白质和阻力训练的协同效应。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And was the type of exercise that they performed there resistance training?

他们进行的运动类型是阻力训练吗？

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

This is the good news.

这是个好消息。

It didn't take much.

没花太多时间。

It was five days a week of walking 30 minutes, and two days a week of resistance training with just body weight.

每周有五天步行 30 分钟，每周两天进行仅自重的阻力训练。

It was like yoga activity.

这就像瑜伽活动。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So air squats, down dogs, some warrior poses, maybe some handstand attempts.

所以空蹲、下犬式、一些战士姿势，也许还有一些倒立尝试。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

So yeah.

所以是的。

No one's doing handstands.

没人做倒立。

Robert, are you doing handstands?

罗伯特，你在做倒立吗？

No one's doing handstands.

没人做倒立。

Come on.

快点。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I've been to some yoga classes where I look to the sides of me and people are doing some pretty difficult things.

我参加过一些瑜伽课程，我观察自己的身体两侧，发现人们正在做一些非常困难的事情。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Very impressive.

非常令人印象深刻。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Planches and things like that.

木板之类的东西。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Definitely not me.

绝对不是我。

Do not invite me.

不要邀请我。

Life is better this way.

这样生活会更好。

I'm not going to those classes.

我不会去那些课程。

But 16 weeks, they did a high protein with protein and exercise.

但第 16 周，他们进行了高蛋白摄入和运动。

Those individuals-- So the group that I just mentioned, this was dietary intervention alone.

那些人——所以我刚才提到的小组，这只是饮食干预。

With exercise, high protein plus exercise, very simple exercise.

配合运动，高蛋白加运动，很简单的运动。

So if someone is listening to this and they're thinking, "What can I do to make very practical changes to massively impact my life outside of hormone replacement, outside of any super supplement, outside of anything?" Diet and exercise has a dramatic effect.

因此，如果有人听到这个并且他们在想，“除了激素替代品、任何超级补充剂、任何东西之外，我能做些什么来做出非常实际的改变，以极大地影响我的生活？”饮食和运动有显着的效果。

Those individuals that were doing 1.6 grams per kg, which is 0.7 grams per pound of body weight, plus exercise, lost 46% more body weight.

那些每公斤体重 1.6 克（即每磅体重 0.7 克）的人，加上运动，体重减轻了 46%。

That's substantial.

这很重要。

60% more fat and 40% less fat-free mass from organs, muscle, whatever that is compared to the low protein group plus exercise.

与低蛋白加运动组相比，器官、肌肉等的脂肪含量增加了 60%，无脂肪含量减少了 40%。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And was it sub-caloric?

它是低热量的吗？

Were they-

他们是不是——

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

It was

原来是

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

below maintenance weight?

低于维持体重？

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

It was.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So they're eating to ideal body weight, but still 500 calories or so below their current caloric needs to maintain body weight.

因此，他们的饮食达到了理想体重，但仍然比目前维持体重所需的热量低 500 卡路里左右。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Yes.

是的。

So this-

所以这个——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So I've heard before that when we eat protein, a certain amount of energy is required to metabolize that protein.

所以我以前听说当我们吃蛋白质时，需要一定量的能量来代谢蛋白质。

Can that be translated as the caloric load of protein is not what it appears to be?

这是否可以理解为蛋白质的热量负荷并不像看上去的那样？

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

If let's say that six-ounce steak, I'm making this up and I'll probably get the numbers badly wrong, but if it's six ounces of steak and maybe that's, let's just say 450 calories or 500 calories, does that mean that only 400 of those calories are actually, quote-unquote, "utilized"?

如果说是 6 盎司的牛排，我是在编造的，我可能会把数字弄错，但如果是 6 盎司的牛排，也许就是 450 卡路里或 500 卡路里，这是否意味着其中只有 400 卡路里实际上是“利用”的？

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

What you're talking about is the thermic effect of food, the thermic effect of feeding, and that's the idea that certain macronutrients require a certain percentage of energy, or the energy from those calories, to be utilized.

你所说的是食物的热效应，喂养的热效应，这就是某些常量营养素需要一定比例的能量或来自这些卡路里的能量才能被利用的想法。

For fat, it's something like 3%, for carbohydrates, maybe it's 5% to 10%, and then for protein, it could be anywhere from 20% to-- I've seen even studies that are at 30%.

对于脂肪来说，大约是 3%，对于碳水化合物来说，可能是 5% 到 10%，然后对于蛋白质来说，可能是 20% 到——我什至见过 30% 的研究。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Wow.

哇。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

I know.

我知道。

But here is the thing.

但事情是这样的。

It's not that it's the energy that it takes.

并不是说它需要能量。

So if we were going to make it simple, we'll say 100 calories from straight protein.

因此，如果我们要简单一点，我们会说 100 卡路里来自纯蛋白质。

The body would net 80 calories because 20% of that energy is being used for, what I would say, is muscle protein synthesis.

身体将净吸收 80 卡路里，因为其中 20% 的能量被用于肌肉蛋白质的合成。

It's not the handling of nitrogen.

这不是氮气的处理。

It's none of that.

都不是这些。

And there's variations in the literature, and the variations come from how an individual doses protein.

文献中存在差异，这些差异来自于个人服用蛋白质的方式。

So the dosing, depending if you've hit that minimum 30 grams, then you will see a more optimal utilization of protein, and I think that that's where that number comes from.

因此，剂量取决于您是否达到了最低 30 克，然后您将看到蛋白质的更佳利用率，我认为这就是该数字的来源。

It's actually the stimulation of muscle because that is such an energetic process in and of itself.

它实际上是对肌肉的刺激，因为这本身就是一个充满活力的过程。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, InsideTracker.

我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商 InsideTracker。

InsideTracker is a personalized nutrition platform that analyzes data from your blood and DNA to help you better understand your body and help you reach your health goals.

InsideTracker 是一个个性化营养平台，可分析您的血液和 DNA 数据，帮助您更好地了解您的身体并帮助您实现健康目标。

Now, I've long been a believer in getting regular blood work done for the simple reason that many of the factors that impact your immediate and long-term health can only be analyzed from a quality blood test.

现在，我长期以来一直相信定期进行血液检查，原因很简单，影响您当前和长期健康的许多因素只能通过高质量的血液测试来分析。

Now, a major problem with a lot of blood tests out there is that you get information back about metabolic factors and hormones and lipids and so forth, but you don't know what to do with that information.

现在，大量血液测试的一个主要问题是，您获得有关代谢因素、激素和脂质等的信息，但您不知道如何处理这些信息。

With InsideTracker, they make it very easy to know what to do with those numbers because they have a personalized platform that allows you to see the levels of those metabolic factors, lipids, hormones, et cetera, and they give you specific directives that you can follow related to nutrition, behavioral modification, supplementation, and more that can help you bring those numbers into the ranges that are optimal for you.

借助 InsideTracker，他们可以很容易地知道如何处理这些数字，因为他们有一个个性化的平台，可以让您查看这些代谢因素、脂质、激素等的水平，并且它们会为您提供与营养、行为矫正、补充等相关的具体指示，您可以遵循这些指示，从而帮助您将这些数字调整到最适合您的范围。

If you'd like to try InsideTracker, you can go to insidetracker.com/huberman to get 10% off their new membership program.

如果您想尝试 InsideTracker，您可以访问 insidetracker.com/huberman 享受其新会员计划 10% 的折扣。

InsideTracker membership offers significantly reduced prices on InsideTracker's comprehensive blood panels.

InsideTracker 会员资格可大幅降低 InsideTracker 综合血液检测的价格。

Again, that's insidetracker.com/huberman to get 10% off.

再次强调，访问 insidetracker.com/huberman 可以获得 10% 的折扣。

Slightly tangential question, but I think meaningful given the context of what we're talking about.

有点离题，但我认为考虑到我们正在讨论的背景，这是有意义的。

Why is it that if I eat a plate of scrambled eggs or a steak or a chicken breast and some vegetables, I feel very sated?

为什么我吃一盘炒鸡蛋、一块牛排、一块鸡胸肉加一些蔬菜，我就觉得很饱？

And unless I did some hard resistance training, I'm kind of good with that.

除非我做了一些艰苦的阻力训练，否则我对此很满意。

But that if I eat any of those same foods and one piece of a baguette or one forkful of pasta, that then I want a lot more pasta and I want half the loaf of bread.

但是，如果我吃任何相同的食物和一块法棍面包或一叉意大利面，那么我想要更多的意大利面，我想要一半的面包。

Why is that?

这是为什么？

Is it the blood glucose response?

是血糖反应吗？

Is there something about carbohydrate at the level of the mouth?

口腔里有碳水化合物吗？

What is it?

它是什么？

A former guest on this podcast, Dr. Diego Bohórquez, who studies gut-brain sensing, explained to us, and this is separate from the microbiome, that we have receptors all along the length of our gut from our mouth out to the rectum that are sensing the amino acids and are looking for those essential amino acids, but also sensing sugar and things like that and signaling to the brain about how much more we should eat of a given food or forage for a given food.

本播客的前嘉宾、研究肠脑感应的迭戈·博霍尔克斯博士向我们解释说，这与微生物组是分开的，从口腔到直肠，我们的整个肠道都有受体，它们感知氨基酸并寻找那些必需氨基酸，但也感知糖和类似的东西，并向大脑发出信号，告诉大脑我们应该多吃多少给定的食物或为给定的食物寻找饲料。

And I just have to say, at a psychological level, subjective level, there's something so fundamentally different about eating protein and vegetables or protein, fruits, and vegetables In the absence of starchy carbohydrates, and when adds starchy carbohydrates or eat starchy carbohydrates alone, and it's not a runaway train, but it's almost as if it's never quite enough until there's a physical volume in the gut that is at threshold.

我不得不说，在心理层面、主观层面上，在没有淀粉类碳水化合物的情况下，吃蛋白质和蔬菜，或者吃蛋白质、水果和蔬菜，以及当添加淀粉类碳水化合物或单独吃淀粉类碳水化合物时，这并不是一列失控的火车，但几乎就像是永远不够，直到肠道中的物理体积达到阈值。

And I don't think I'm alone in this.

我不认为我是唯一一个这样做的人。

You look at the way people eat chips, you look at the way people eat pasta, you look at the way people eat risotto, and it's just different.

你看看人们吃薯条的方式，你看看人们吃意大利面的方式，你看看人们吃意大利调味饭的方式，你会发现它们都是不同的。

There are a few freaks out there that probably eat two rib eye steaks, but for most people, a rib eye steak is enough.

有一些怪胎可能会吃两块肋眼牛排，但对于大多数人来说，一块肋眼牛排就足够了。

One rib eye is enough.

一份肋眼就足够了。

What is going on there?

那里发生了什么事？

And feel free to speculate.

并随意推测。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But is it amino acid sensing?

但这是氨基酸传感吗？

Because I think this is really important, because I think as you're suggesting, if I may, that people prioritize protein from the first meal of the day and throughout the day.

因为我认为这非常重要，因为我认为正如您所建议的那样，如果可以的话，人们优先考虑一天第一餐和一整天中的蛋白质。

I think people are imagining, well, gosh, what happens to my pasta?

我认为人们正在想象，天哪，我的意大利面会怎样？

What happens to the bread?

面包会发生什么？

What happens to all these things?

所有这些事情会发生什么？

And they're perhaps overlooking the fact that eating protein, vegetables and maybe fruit, maybe a little bit of starch, is just a completely different experience than eating starch alone or starch-

他们可能忽视了这样一个事实：吃蛋白质、蔬菜，也许还有水果，也许还有一点淀粉，与单独吃淀粉或淀粉是一种完全不同的体验——

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

in larger volumes.

在更大的体积中。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Now, I'm going to speculate here.

现在，我要在这里推测。

The foods that we have access to are highly palatable, and potentially we weren't necessarily designed to have access to those kinds of foods.

我们能吃到的食物非常美味，但我们可能生来就不一定能吃到这些食物。

And this kind of moves into this idea of something called the protein leverage hypothesis.

这就涉及到一种叫做蛋白质杠杆假说的想法。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

And the protein leverage hypothesis is that individuals will continue to eat, and this is one way people explain obesity, is that individuals will eat to satisfy an amino acid need.

蛋白质杠杆假说是，个体会继续进食，这是人们解释肥胖的一种方式，即个体会通过进食来满足氨基酸需求。

Now, your original question was when we eat carbohydrates or risotto, there is a component of blood sugar regulation that happens.

现在，你最初的问题是，当我们吃碳水化合物或烩饭时，会发生血糖调节的一个组成部分。

So as you go beyond that 50 gram threshold, you tend to release more insulin.

因此，当您超过 50 克阈值时，您往往会释放更多胰岛素。

So there's an insulinogenic effect of dietary carbohydrates, which some people will experience as lower blood sugar.

因此，饮食中的碳水化合物会产生胰岛素作用，有些人会出现血糖降低的情况。

We've all had that experience where you're, not all, but eating your kids' macaroni and cheese, and then you just can't stop.

我们都有过这样的经历：你（不是全部）吃着孩子的通心粉和奶酪，然后你就停不下来。

And then you probably feel very tired.

然后你可能会感到很累。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

There's an ebb and flow of blood sugar.

血糖有起伏。

The interesting thing about dietary protein is you will hear people say, "I'm going to reduce my dietary protein because it's insulinogenic as well." So dietary protein does cause a phase one insulin release, and that's preformed insulin in the pancreas.

关于膳食蛋白质的有趣之处在于，您会听到人们说：“我要减少膳食蛋白质，因为它也会产生胰岛素。”因此，膳食蛋白质确实会导致第一阶段胰岛素释放，这是胰腺中预先形成的胰岛素。

It is a component for muscle protein synthesis.

它是肌肉蛋白质合成的成分。

But it is roughly 20% of the insulin response than the same amount of carbohydrates.

但它的胰岛素反应比等量的碳水化合物大约低20%。

And when you eat a meal that is robust in dietary protein, your body will be able to then generate its own glucose.

当您吃富含膳食蛋白质的膳食时，您的身体将能够产生自己的葡萄糖。

Roughly for every 100 grams of protein, your body will generate 60 grams of glucose over a period of time through the process called gluconeogenesis.

大约每 100 克蛋白质，您的身体会在一段时间内通过称为糖异生的过程产生 60 克葡萄糖。

And that is one of the benefits of a higher protein diet.

这是高蛋白饮食的好处之一。

You generate the glucose that you need.

您会产生所需的葡萄糖。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And can that be converted into glycogen?

它可以转化为糖原吗？

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Can you repack muscle that you've depleted?

你能重新补充已经耗尽的肌肉吗？

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

That is a good question.

这是一个好问题。

The process is very slow, so it's a much slower process than if you were to have your bread or risotto.

这个过程非常慢，所以它比你吃面包或意大利调味饭要慢得多。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So you told us about essential amino acids.

所以你告诉我们有关必需氨基酸的信息。

Are there any essential carbohydrates?

有必需的碳水化合物吗？

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

No.

不。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

There are essential fatty acids.

有必需脂肪酸。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Yeah, there are.

是的，有。

And it's interesting, we're talking about protein, and as I mentioned before, we simplified in the way that we talk about it as it's one thing, but it's 20 different amino acids.

有趣的是，我们谈论的是蛋白质，正如我之前提到的，我们简化了谈论它的方式，因为它是一件事，但它是 20 种不同的氨基酸。

These amino acids each have unique metabolic roles in the body.

这些氨基酸各自在体内具有独特的代谢作用。

It's not interchangeable.

它不可互换。

For example, the essential amino acid, we'll just pick a brain one, tryptophan for serotonin production, or threonine for mucin production in the gut, which helps the gut lining, or take your pick, phenylalanine.

例如，对于必需氨基酸，我们只选择大脑中的一种，色氨酸用于产生血清素，或者苏氨酸用于在肠道中产生粘蛋白，这有助于肠道内壁，或者您可以选择苯丙氨酸。

All of these essential amino acids do various things in the body.

所有这些必需氨基酸在体内都有不同的作用。

For skeletal muscle, the primary essential amino acid is leucine.

对于骨骼肌来说，主要的必需氨基酸是亮氨酸。

And while again, it is very complex in the way that we would think about how do we eat enough lysine, or how do we eat enough methionine, it's not a great way to think about it because then things become very complex, and someone is like, "Well, what do I do?" But if you eat for the needs of skeletal muscle health, everything else falls into place.

再说一遍，我们思考如何吃足够的赖氨酸或如何吃足够的蛋氨酸的方式非常复杂，这不是一个很好的思考方式，因为这样事情就会变得非常复杂，有人会说，“好吧，我该怎么办？”但如果你的饮食是为了骨骼肌健康的需要，那么其他一切都会水到渠成。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

My mom is 79 years old.

我妈妈79岁了。

She's relatively lean.

她的身材比较瘦。

By my read, I haven't seen her DEXA results, but she's probably had some muscular atrophy.

据我所知，我还没有看到她的 DEXA 结果，但她可能患有一些肌肉萎缩。

She does yoga, she walks, she gardens, and seems to be in good health, thank goodness.

她做瑜伽、散步、园艺，谢天谢地，她看起来很健康。

My guess is she's lost some muscle in the last decades.

我猜她在过去几十年里失去了一些肌肉。

If she were to increase the amount of quality protein that she eats, especially in that first meal of the day, would the health of her muscle and her muscle mass change, even if she does no resistance exercise?

如果她增加摄入的优质蛋白质的量，尤其是在一天的第一顿饭中，即使她不进行抗阻运动，她的肌肉健康状况和肌肉质量也会改变吗？

I suppose she gets a little bit of resistance training from the yoga, but I haven't been to a yoga class with my mom ever.

我想她从瑜伽中得到了一点阻力训练，但我从来没有和我妈妈一起上过瑜伽课。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

You guys aren't doing headstands?

你们都不做头倒立吗？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Definitely not doing headstands.

绝对不做头倒立。

She's very mobile and very sharp and very vivacious.

她非常活跃、非常敏锐、非常活泼。

But I don't think she's doing the more advanced inversion things at yoga.

但我不认为她在瑜伽中做更高级的倒立动作。

So let's assume that she's doing some moderate exercise three, four times a week, but not training with weights.

因此，我们假设她每周进行三到四次适度的运动，但不进行举重训练。

If somebody like her or a younger male that has a similar pattern of behavior, a desk worker for the most part, jogs a little bit, gets on the recumbent bike or whatever it is, but is not doing resistance training, increases their quality protein intake throughout the day, and especially at that first meal, ensuring at least 30 and up to 50 grams of intake What changes are likely to happen even without resistance exercise?

如果像她这样的人或具有类似行为模式的年轻男性，大多数情况下，办公室工作人员会慢跑一点，骑上卧式自行车或其他任何东西，但不进行阻力训练，全天增加优质蛋白质的摄入量，特别是在第一顿饭时，确保至少 30 到 50 克的摄入量。即使没有阻力锻炼，也可能会发生什么变化？

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Well, the first thing is that if she is eating a sub amount of protein, let's say she's eating the RDA of protein, and the average woman eats around 68 grams of protein a day.

嗯，第一件事是，如果她吃的蛋白质量不足，假设她吃的是 RDA 蛋白质，普通女性每天吃大约 68 克蛋白质。

40% of women over the age of 60 are deficient in protein.

60岁以上的女性中有40%缺乏蛋白质。

They're eating below the RDA.

他们的饮食量低于每日推荐摄入量（RDA）。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And what's happening to their body?

他们的身体发生了什么？

Is their body robbing their existing skeletal muscle of amino acids in order to supply what the brain and other organs need?

他们的身体是否正在剥夺现有骨骼肌的氨基酸，以供应大脑和其他器官所需的氨基酸？

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

In part.

部分地。

One of the things that happens with aging is the whole body protein turnover becomes less efficient.

随着衰老发生的事情之一是全身蛋白质周转效率降低。

So the body is turning over roughly 300 grams of protein a day.

因此，身体每天会消耗大约 300 克蛋白质。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

That's a lot of turnover.

这是很大的营业额。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

It is a lot of turnover.

这是很大的营业额。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

300 grams of protein of turnover.

周转蛋白质300克。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Correct.

正确。

Yes.

是的。

And muscle only accounts for maybe 25% of turnover.

而肌肉只占营业额的 25%。

An individual might eat, an average female, like your mom, is eating probably around 68 grams of protein a day.

一个人可能会吃东西，一个普通的女性，比如你的妈妈，每天可能吃大约 68 克蛋白质。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah, if I'm lucky.

是的，如果我幸运的话。

She's not big on beef or chicken.

她不喜欢吃牛肉或鸡肉。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

And listen-

听着——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mostly eggs and a little bit of fish and lots of vegetables and fruits, but maintains, again, a healthy lean body weight.

主要是鸡蛋和少量的鱼以及大量的蔬菜和水果，但再次保持健康的去脂体重。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

And that is wonderful because so she's balancing her lower protein intake with physical activity.

这很棒，因为她正在平衡较低的蛋白质摄入量和体力活动。

Remember, there are two main ways to stimulate skeletal muscle, and that's through resistance training, which one would argue she is doing, and/or dietary protein.

请记住，刺激骨骼肌的主要方法有两种，一种是通过阻力训练（有人认为她正在这样做）和/或饮食蛋白质。

But when we think about muscle protein synthesis, there's really four inputs.

但当我们考虑肌肉蛋白质合成时，实际上有四种输入。

There's resistance training, there's energy-

有阻力训练，有能量-

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

...

...

there's insulin, growth hormones, and then there's leucine.

有胰岛素、生长激素，还有亮氨酸。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

When you are younger, your body is driven by more of the anabolic hormones, which is one reason why we believe that a younger individual can get away with 5 to 10 grams to 15 grams of dietary protein.

当您年轻时，您的身体会受到更多合成代谢激素的驱动，这就是我们相信年轻人可以摄入 5 至 10 克至 15 克膳食蛋白质的原因之一。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Because their levels of testosterone and/or estrogen are driving protein synthesis in a way that lets them offset any dietary deficiencies?

因为他们的睾酮和/或雌激素水平正在推动蛋白质合成，从而让他们抵消任何饮食缺陷？

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Well, their body's just highly anabolic.

嗯，他们的身体只是高度合成代谢的。

They're growing.

他们正在成长。

They're growing up.

他们正在长大。

They're growing.

他们正在成长。

When an individual like your mom, who's now stopped growing, the body becomes much more reliant on leucine and resistance training because the main pathway that these things go towards is something called mTOR, mammalian target of rapamycin.

当像你妈妈这样的人现在停止生长时，身体会变得更加依赖亮氨酸和阻力训练，因为这些东西的主要途径是一种叫做 mTOR 的东西，雷帕霉素的哺乳动物靶标。

The influence on those pathways changes as we age.

随着年龄的增长，对这些途径的影响也会发生变化。

So the lever in which you pull changes, and the importance of that lever changes.

因此，你拉动的杠杆发生了变化，杠杆的重要性也发生了变化。

So the best thing that your mom could do to maintain skeletal muscle-- So why and what happens to skeletal muscle as we age?

那么，你的妈妈可以做的最好的事情就是保持骨骼肌——那么随着年龄的增长，骨骼肌为什么会发生变化以及会发生什么变化呢？

Skeletal muscle, if it is not contracted and utilized, gets this fat infiltration, mitochondria changes, protein turnover changes.

骨骼肌如果不收缩和利用，就会发生脂肪渗透、线粒体变化、蛋白质周转变化。

It becomes less efficient at sensing amino acids.

它检测氨基酸的效率变得较低。

There's a decrease in capillary perfusion, which is one reason why exercise is so important.

毛细血管灌注减少，这是运动如此重要的原因之一。

In order for her skeletal muscle to respond like a younger muscle, what she should do is do some kind of resistance training and then add in some kind of dietary protein.

为了让她的骨骼肌像年轻的肌肉一样做出反应，她应该做的是进行某种阻力训练，然后添加某种膳食蛋白质。

Because when we think about the protein hierarchy, the amount of protein in a 24-hour period matters the most.

因为当我们考虑蛋白质等级时，24 小时内的蛋白质含量最为重要。

Protein hierarchy, again, closer to one gram per pound ideal body weight.

蛋白质等级再次接近每磅理想体重一克。

The evidence would say 1.6 grams per kg.

证据显示每公斤 1.6 克。

I'll never forget when the ProAge study came out.

我永远不会忘记 ProAge 研究结果出来的那一刻。

I can't believe I've been out of fellowship that long, but the ProAge study was a position paper, and it talked about how the current recommendation for dietary protein is too low, and that to support healthy aging, you need 2.5 grams of leucine or roughly 30 grams of protein and an increase in total overall dietary protein.

我不敢相信我已经离开研究员那么久了，但 ProAge 研究是一份立场文件，它谈到了当前对膳食蛋白质的建议是如何太低，以及为了支持健康老龄化，你需要 2.5 克亮氨酸或大约 30 克蛋白质，并增加总体膳食蛋白质。

And this was really the first position statement, and that came out, gosh, I think 2010.

这确实是第一个立场声明，天哪，我记得是 2010 年。

Yet we haven't changed any of the recommendations for the general population yet.

然而，我们还没有改变针对普通大众的任何建议。

So in order for your mom's muscle to respond, if you compound those two things, then she will maintain, with activity, the health of her skeletal muscle.

因此，为了让你妈妈的肌肉做出反应，如果你将这两件事结合起来，那么她将通过活动保持骨骼肌的健康。

You mentioned something else.

你提到了别的事情。

An individual shouldn't just load protein.

一个人不应该只摄入蛋白质。

Loading extra protein and not moving is not a good idea because of protein's effect on mTOR throughout the body.

加载额外的蛋白质而不移动并不是一个好主意，因为蛋白质会对全身的 mTOR 产生影响。

So we talked about mTOR, which is mechanistic target of rapamycin in skeletal muscle, in the brain, in the pancreas.

所以我们讨论了 mTOR，它是雷帕霉素在骨骼肌、大脑和胰腺中的机制靶点。

This is a protein complex that you just don't want stimulated all day long.

这是一种蛋白质复合物，您不想整天受到刺激。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

For sake of cancer risk?

为了癌症风险？

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

My understanding is that mTOR is very highly expressed in all cells of the body early in development and throughout growth.

我的理解是，mTOR 在发育早期和整个生长过程中的身体所有细胞中都高度表达。

In fact, it's expressed in the cells I spent my career working on, the retinal cells, and then over time it drops off.

事实上，它在我职业生涯所研究的细胞（视网膜细胞）中表达，然后随着时间的推移它会消失。

And it's remarkable how studies where mTOR is replaced into cells allows them to essentially look like and behave like young cells again, even replacing some regenerative capacity.

值得注意的是，研究将 mTOR 替换到细胞中，使它们基本上看起来和行为都像年轻细胞一样，甚至取代了一些再生能力。

This is work of a guy named Zhigang He at Harvard Children's Hospital at Harvard Medical School.

这是哈佛医学院哈佛儿童医院一位名叫何志刚的人的作品。

But what one always observes, and we've done these experiments in my lab, is that when you increase mTOR by any number of different ways, molecular chicanery and things like that, that the cells grow enormous.

但人们总是观察到，我们在实验室里做了这些实验，当你通过多种不同的方式、分子欺骗和类似的事情来增加 mTOR 时，细胞就会变得巨大。

And the concern is always that if you increase mTOR, that you are going to bias any preexisting tumors to proliferate as well.

人们总是担心，如果增加 mTOR，就会导致任何先前存在的肿瘤也发生增殖。

Is that right?

是这样吗？

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

I think that yes, it is, and we have to recognize that mTOR stimulation is different in different parts of the body, just as you mentioned.

我认为是的，确实如此，而且我们必须认识到 mTOR 刺激在身体的不同部位是不同的，正如您提到的那样。

And so skeletal muscle is uniquely sensitive to contraction, and it's through this biochemical process called REDD1.

因此骨骼肌对收缩特别敏感，这是通过称为 REDD1 的生化过程实现的。

And when you contract skeletal muscle, it inhibits REDD1, which then, again, there is this phosphorylation of mTOR and muscle protein synthesis happens.

当你收缩骨骼肌时，它会抑制 REDD1，然后，mTOR 再次磷酸化，肌肉蛋白合成就会发生。

That is unique to skeletal muscle.

这是骨骼肌所独有的。

And when individuals will say, this will be a common discussion that you hear in the space is that, "Well, I don't want to increase my dietary protein because somehow that is going to cause cancer." And that is not true.

当人们说，这将是你在这个领域听到的一个常见讨论时，“嗯，我不想增加我的饮食蛋白质，因为不知何故这会导致癌症。”但事实并非如此。

That is a very myopic thought process.

这是一个非常短视的思维过程。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm.

嗯。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

That would be the same as saying resistance training, which also stimulates mTOR, is going to cause cancer.

这就像说阻力训练也会刺激 mTOR 会导致癌症一样。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right.

对。

I completely agree with you.

我完全同意你的观点。

I think it's interesting that mTOR, which in mice is mammalian target of rapamycin, that word rapamycin might prick up some people's ears.

我认为有趣的是，mTOR 在小鼠中是雷帕霉素的哺乳动物靶点，雷帕霉素这个词可能会引起一些人的注意。

There are some people out there, and by the way, I'm not recommending this, that take rapamycin as a way to inhibit mTOR in hopes of extending their lifespan.

顺便说一句，我不建议有些人服用雷帕霉素作为抑制 mTOR 的方法，希望延长他们的寿命。

There's some animal studies that support this.

有一些动物研究支持这一点。

There's growing interest in this, and so much so that some people are willing to take rapamycin.

人们对此越来越感兴趣，以至于有些人愿意服用雷帕霉素。

By that logic, rapamycin would perhaps inhibit muscle growth, muscle health.

按照这个逻辑，雷帕霉素可能会抑制肌肉生长和肌肉健康。

That's a whole other discussion.

那是另外一个讨论了。

We'd have to get Atiyah, Matt Kaeberlein, a few other folks here, and maybe we will, with you to discuss that.

我们必须让 Atiyah、Matt Kaeberlein 和其他一些人来这里，也许我们会和你们一起讨论这个问题。

But the point being that I agree completely that we can't just say something that increases mTOR in muscle is also going to increase cancer, that these molecules, like mTOR, have distinct roles in distinct-

但重点是，我完全同意，我们不能仅仅说增加肌肉中 mTOR 的东西也会增加癌症的发生，这些分子，如 mTOR，在不同的方面具有不同的作用——

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Correct

正确

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

tissues at distinct time points throughout the lifespan.

整个生命周期中不同时间点的组织。

And as you mentioned, ingesting quality protein can increase muscle protein synthesis by way of mTOR and other pathways.

正如您提到的，摄入优质蛋白质可以通过 mTOR 和其他途径增加肌肉蛋白质合成。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Which it should.

应该如此。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right.

对。

As well as resistance training.

还有抗阻训练。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And I don't think anyone in the longevity space would suggest that resistance training is a bad thing.

我不认为长寿领域的任何人都会认为阻力训练是一件坏事。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

That's right.

没错。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And yet we know it's increasing mTOR.

但我们知道它正在增加 mTOR。

So there's a little bit of a contradiction in that field, just if one stands back from it and says, "Well, wait, you want to take rapamycin to block mTOR, but you also want to do resistance training to stimulate mTOR.

因此，这个领域存在一点矛盾，如果有人退后一步说：“好吧，等等，你想服用雷帕霉素来阻断 mTOR，但你又想进行阻力训练来刺激 mTOR。

Which one is it?"

是哪一个？”

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Yeah, and we have to recognize that the efficiency of the stimulation declines as we age.

是的，我们必须认识到刺激的效率会随着年龄的增长而下降。

And the way that we overcome that is, again, this idea of muscle span.

我们克服这个问题的方法就是肌肉跨度的概念。

How do we continue to go through life and design a diet that we know will be more dependent on dietary protein and movement as we age?

我们如何继续度过一生并设计一种我们知道随着年龄的增长将更加依赖膳食蛋白质和运动的饮食？

Because the balance between the two changes.

因为两者之间的平衡发生了变化。

When you're young, you could eat the Twinkie diet, probably look at a weight and grow.

当你年轻的时候，你可以吃Twinkie饮食，也许看看体重就会增长。

Age is the great equalizer.

年龄是伟大的均衡器。

I trained in geriatrics, and I am telling you, age is the great equalizer, and creating protocols and habits put into place to allow you to age well is everything.

我接受过老年病学培训，我告诉你，年龄是最好的均衡器，制定协议和习惯让你能够健康地变老就是一切。

And there is so much confusion in the nutrition space that if we can pull back and recognize, well, number one, science is a evolving field, and it's the science of uncertainty.

营养领域存在如此多的混乱，如果我们能够退后一步并认识到，第一，科学是一个不断发展的领域，而且是一门充满不确定性的科学。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

But there are foundational principles that we can put into place.

但我们可以落实一些基本原则。

And one of those foundational principles is skeletal muscle health, muscle as the organ of longevity must be supported.

这些基本原则之一是骨骼肌健康，肌肉作为长寿的器官必须得到支持。

And there are very few ways in which we can do that.

我们能做到这一点的方法很少。

When you think about the metabolic implications of skeletal muscle as glucose disposal unit, these diseases of aging really begin in skeletal muscle before you see any outward signs of obesity, before you see any outward signs of anything that would indicate you are unhealthy.

当您考虑骨骼肌作为葡萄糖处理单位的代谢影响时，这些衰老疾病实际上在您看到任何肥胖的外在迹象之前，在您看到任何表明您不健康的外在迹象之前就开始于骨骼肌。

It's kind of like osteoporosis is the silent disease.

这有点像骨质疏松症是一种无声的疾病。

Skeletal muscle health is also that way.

骨骼肌健康也是如此。

And in fact, there's some very pivotal work out of Yale, and they looked at young, healthy college students.

事实上，耶鲁大学有一些非常关键的工作，他们关注的是年轻、健康的大学生。

As a college student, you'll do anything for a couple bucks, right?

作为一名大学生，你会为了几块钱做任何事，对吗？

If they pay them.

如果他们付钱的话。

And these individuals were sedentary, but they were healthy, lean, and what they saw was skeletal muscle insulin resistance just by being inactive.

这些人久坐不动，但他们健康、苗条，他们看到的是骨骼肌胰岛素抵抗只是因为不活动。

Can you imagine, as you continue, and how do we define inactivity now?

当你继续下去时，你能想象我们现在如何定义不活动吗？

What is it, less than 5,000 steps?

不到5000步是什么？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Per day.

每天。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Per day.

每天。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Wow.

哇。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

And there's multiple ways.

并且有多种方法。

Think about it.

想一想。

We were designed as humans to be very mobile.

我们被设计为人类，具有很强的流动性。

And so now we live in a world that what we think about as sedentary behavior as something innocuous and not a big deal, it is a disease state.

所以现在我们生活在一个我们认为久坐行为无害、没什么大不了的世界，它是一种疾病状态。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So I feel like you've made an excellent case for the ingestion of sufficient amounts of quality protein each day, especially starting with that first meal of the day.

所以我觉得你已经为每天摄入足够量的优质蛋白质提供了一个很好的例子，特别是从一天的第一顿饭开始。

And just to underscore the suggestion that I heard, it was aim for one gram of quality protein per pound of target body weight.

为了强调我听到的建议，目标是每磅目标体重摄入一克优质蛋白质。

So if somebody weighs 200 pounds and they'd like to weigh 180 pounds, try and get 180 grams of quality protein per day, divided up into meals that include somewhere between 30 to 50 grams of protein per meal.

因此，如果某人体重 200 磅，但希望体重达到 180 磅，请尝试每天摄入 180 克优质蛋白质，分成几餐，每餐含有 30 至 50 克蛋白质。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Yes, and that first and last meal are the most important.

是的，第一顿和最后一顿饭是最重要的。

There's a lot of information going around that an even distribution has to happen.

有很多信息表明必须进行均匀分布。

And partially this is my mentor's fault.

这部分是我导师的错。

He'll laugh.

他会笑。

This 30 grams of protein three times a day.

此蛋白质30克，每日3次。

I'm sure you've heard about it.

我相信你已经听说过它。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah, or that you can't assimilate more than 30 grams of protein-

是的，或者你不能吸收超过 30 克的蛋白质 -

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Right

右

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

per meal.

每餐。

Let's-

让我们-

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

You assimilate-

你同化了——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

let's drill into that

让我们深入探讨一下

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

...

...

you assimilate all the protein that you ingest.

您吸收了摄入的所有蛋白质。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Even if it's a-

即使它是一个——

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Correct

正确

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

100 grams?

100克？

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Correct.

正确。

Even if it is 100 grams.

即使是100克。

Skeletal muscle protein synthesis will max out probably at 55 grams.

骨骼肌蛋白质合成量可能达到最大值 55 克。

Again, maybe it's 50, maybe it's 55.

再说一次，也许是 50，也许是 55。

The rest is oxidized.

其余部分被氧化。

You can only incorporate so many proteins, so much protein, and the rest is then used as fuel or oxidized.

你只能吸收这么多的蛋白质，这么多的蛋白质，剩下的就被用作燃料或被氧化。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

What if I do hard resistance training in the hours before a meal, and then that meal includes 100 grams of quality proteins, let's say whey protein.

如果我在饭前几个小时进行艰苦的阻力训练，然后该餐包含 100 克优质蛋白质（比方说乳清蛋白），会怎么样？

Do I put all of that 100 grams into muscle protein synthesis?

我是否将这 100 克全部用于肌肉蛋白质合成？

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

I would say I don't know if you put all 100 grams, but I would guess that it would cap out at a certain number.

我想说，我不知道你是否把 100 克都放进去，但我猜它会限制在某个数字。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

And really the totality of evidence would suggest it's probably around 55 grams.

事实上，所有证据表明它的重量可能约为 55 克。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So regardless of whether or not somebody does resistance training You can ingest about 50 grams of protein, again, four calories per gram, typically into muscle protein synthesis.

因此，无论某人是否进行阻力训练，您都可以摄入大约 50 克蛋白质，同样，每克 4 卡路里，通常用于肌肉蛋白质合成。

The rest is oxidized.

其余部分被氧化。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Maybe just touch on that process of oxidation, what that looks like.

也许只是触及氧化过程，它是什么样子的。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Yeah.

是的。

It's basically just utilizing those proteins.

它基本上只是利用这些蛋白质。

It's utilizing them for energy.

它利用它们获取能量。

It's not storing them.

它不存储它们。

Whether it goes back for gluconeogenesis or wherever it goes, it is then oxidized.

无论它返回进行糖异生还是去往任何地方，它都会被氧化。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Okay.

好的。

And if that meal with, let's say, 50 grams of quality protein is combined with 50 grams of carbohydrate, fruit, some oatmeal, pasta, rice, et cetera, does that change the utilization of the protein at all?

如果这顿饭含有 50 克优质蛋白质，再加上 50 克碳水化合物、水果、一些燕麦片、意大利面、大米等，这是否会改变蛋白质的利用率？

I know I asked this question earlier, but one could imagine that the body wants to use different fuel sources differently.

我知道我之前问过这个问题，但可以想象身体想要以不同的方式使用不同的燃料来源。

Is there any selective use of one macronutrient versus the other?

与另一种常量营养素相比，是否有选择性使用？

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

What a good question.

多好的问题啊。

That's an excellent question.

这是一个很好的问题。

That amount, it will be seen as a mixed meal, but the body will always choose to get rid of glucose first.

那个量，会被视为混合餐，但身体总会选择先摆脱葡萄糖。

Glucose dominates metabolism because, again, it can be toxic to the body, so it must be utilized.

葡萄糖主导新陈代谢，因为它对身体有毒，所以必须加以利用。

Now, what is also very interesting is that now you're talking about the speed of absorption.

现在，同样非常有趣的是，现在你谈论的是吸收速度。

One of the things that we should mention is typically you need a substantial rise in leucine, and that will probably take and last around two to two and a half hours.

我们应该提到的一件事通常是您需要大幅增加亮氨酸，这可能需要并持续大约两到两个半小时。

So when you have a mixed meal, that slows down absorption digestion.

因此，当您吃混合餐时，吸收消化就会减慢。

This is where the quality of the protein comes in, that becomes very important, because you have to reach a threshold in the blood to stimulate tissue.

这就是蛋白质的质量发挥作用的地方，这变得非常重要，因为你必须达到血液中的阈值才能刺激组织。

And there was a very interesting study.

有一项非常有趣的研究。

It's the first study of its kind, and this came out of Luc Van Loenen's lab.

这是此类研究中的第一项，来自 Luc Van Loenen 的实验室。

And basically, they looked at a vegan diet with, I think it had 40 grams of protein, and then it had a omnivorous diet, so it had both sources of protein.

基本上，他们研究了纯素食饮食，我认为它含有 40 克蛋白质，然后又研究了杂食饮食，所以它有两种蛋白质来源。

And what they found was that the individuals that had the 40-gram meal that was a mixed meal with animal-based proteins actually stimulated muscle protein synthesis, whereas the mixed meal of just the vegetables did not.

他们发现，吃 40 克含有动物蛋白的混合餐的人实际上刺激了肌肉蛋白质的合成，而只吃蔬菜的混合餐却没有。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Interesting.

有趣。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Even though it was plant-based proteins, enough protein in that meal.

即使它是植物性蛋白质，那顿饭中的蛋白质也足够了。

And that likely might be because of the rate of absorption, because of the fiber content, and it becomes important to recognize that a higher protein meal seemed, especially with the quality of the protein, that if you're picking the range between 30 and 50, depending on the mixed meal amount, I would certainly go towards that higher end.

这可能是因为吸收率，因为纤维含量，重要的是要认识到蛋白质含量更高的膳食，尤其是蛋白质的质量，如果你选择 30 到 50 之间的范围，具体取决于混合膳食的量，我肯定会选择更高的一端。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

What is the case for fiber?

光纤的情况如何？

Either supplementing fiber or, in my case, I get fiber from fruits and vegetables mainly.

要么补充纤维，要么就我而言，我主要从水果和蔬菜中获取纤维。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Fiber is extremely valuable.

纤维非常有价值。

It's extremely valuable for the gut microbiome.

它对肠道微生物组极其有价值。

It's extremely valuable for satiation.

它对于饱腹感来说非常有价值。

If I were to design a diet, the first thing that I would pick would be dietary protein.

如果我要设计一种饮食，我首先会选择膳食蛋白质。

Then I would think about how I'm going to parse out the rest of the carbohydrates because you earn carbohydrates through exercise.

然后我会考虑如何解析其余的碳水化合物，因为你可以通过锻炼获得碳水化合物。

I usually choose berries, high-fiber sources of berries, and then whatever fats I favor.

我通常选择浆果、高纤维浆果来源，然后选择我喜欢的任何脂肪。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So blueberries, strawberries, blackberries.

所以蓝莓、草莓、黑莓。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Yes.

是的。

All of them, yeah.

所有这些，是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I'm a big fan of berries.

我非常喜欢浆果。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

All of them.

所有的人。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I'm like a grizzly bear when it comes to berries.

说到浆果，我就像一只灰熊。

I'm a drive-by blueberry eater when they're there.

当他们在那里时，我是一个路过的蓝莓吃者。

I can't help but swipe them off the bowl or the plate.

我忍不住把它们从碗或盘子上擦下来。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

But there was something else that you mentioned that I wanted to highlight, and this was, if I did resistance training, then could I eat 100 grams of protein and then 100 grams of carbohydrates?

但是你提到的还有一点我想强调一下，那就是，如果我进行阻力训练，那么我可以先吃100克蛋白质，然后再吃100克碳水化合物吗？

The amazing part about exercise is what we really care about is glucose disposal and insulin sensitivity.

运动的令人惊奇的部分是我们真正关心的是葡萄糖处理和胰岛素敏感性。

This idea of insulin resistance is killing our world.

这种胰岛素抵抗的想法正在毁灭我们的世界。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Young people, too.

年轻人也一样。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Yes.

是的。

We've seen double to triple the rates of childhood obesity.

我们发现儿童肥胖率增加了一倍到三倍。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

That's wild.

那太疯狂了。

I don't think people younger than 25 recognize it.

我认为25岁以下的人都认不出它。

When I was growing up in school, there was junk food.

当我在学校长大时，有垃圾食品。

Lord knows there was junk food.

天知道有垃圾食品。

There was also good food, and different kids from different homes ate different amounts of junk food.

还有美味的食物，不同家庭的不同孩子吃的垃圾食品数量也不同。

But it was the rare individual in school who was overweight, who was obese.

但学校里超重、肥胖的人却很少见。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And you had some kids that seemed to be just kind of born lean and with more muscle.

有些孩子似乎天生就瘦，肌肉也更多。

You had kids that were thinner with less muscle.

你的孩子更瘦，肌肉更少。

But it was very rare that there was an obese kid.

但肥胖的孩子却很少见。

You just didn't see it much.

只是你没看到太多而已。

And I don't recall there being a lot of restrictive eating or even discussion about nutrition.

我不记得有很多限制性饮食，甚至没有关于营养的讨论。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And people were eating cereals.

人们正在吃谷物。

People were eating candy bars.

人们正在吃棒棒糖。

They were also eating eggs and sandwiches and chicken dinners and all sorts of stuff.

他们还吃鸡蛋、三明治、鸡肉晚餐和各种各样的东西。

So what's happened?

那么发生了什么事？

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Really, what's happened?

真的吗，到底发生了什么事？

Because something is fundamentally different.

因为有些东西是根本不同的。

We had PE class that was required.

我们有必修的体育课。

We had to run.

我们必须逃跑。

We had to play volleyball.

我们必须打排球。

We had to do those things.

我们必须做这些事情。

But it's not like we were all athletes, and we'd walk to class.

但我们并不是都是运动员，我们都会步行去上课。

I skateboard.

我滑板。

I played some soccer, but I wasn't an athlete per se.

我踢过一些足球，但我本身并不是一名运动员。

So what in the world is going on?

那么世界上到底发生了什么？

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Yeah.

是的。

I will say that also two-thirds of Americans are either overweight or obese.

我想说的是，三分之二的美国人要么超重，要么肥胖。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah, it's wild.

是的，它很狂野。

Again, one has to have been born in the '70s, as I was, or early '80s, to really appreciate this tremendous shift in what you see.

再说一次，一个人必须像我一样出生在 70 年代，或者 80 年代初，才能真正欣赏你所看到的这一巨大转变。

And sure, people are on phones more, more sedentary.

当然，人们使用手机的时间越来越多，久坐的时间也越来越长。

It's got to be a combination of things, but they're-

它必须是多种因素的结合，但它们是——

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

It's cultural.

这是文化。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

We have a disease of inactivity and sedentary behavior that is frankly killing our population.

我们患有一种缺乏活动和久坐行为的疾病，坦率地说，这种疾病正在杀死我们的人口。

Almost 50% of people have hypertension.

近50%的人患有高血压。

We have what?

我们有什么？

Forty million people on statins.

四千万人服用他汀类药物。

I'm sure that number has changed.

我确信这个数字已经改变了。

And skeletal muscle is medicine.

骨骼肌是药物。

Skeletal muscle, again, helps with triglycerides, helps with insulin, glucose disposal.

骨骼肌再次有助于甘油三酯、胰岛素和葡萄糖的处理。

So where this came from, you just mentioned, if I exercise, then can I eat whatever you're eating?

那么这是从哪里来的呢，你刚才提到，如果我运动的话，我可以吃你吃的任何东西吗？

Yes.

是的。

But we're not talking about being irresponsible, but skeletal muscle now has sensitized.

但我们并不是在谈论不负责任，而是骨骼肌现在已经变得敏感。

There's a 24-hour period, 72-hour period where that muscle is still sensitized.

在 24 小时、72 小时期间，肌肉仍然处于敏感状态。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Meaning it consumes more nutrients.

意味着它会消耗更多的营养。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

It consumes more nutrients, but also when you think about insulin resistance, insulin moves glucose out of the bloodstream into cells.

它消耗更多的营养，但当你想到胰岛素抵抗时，胰岛素会将葡萄糖从血液中转移到细胞中。

And through the muscle, there's the insulin-dependent pathway through, obviously insulin, and that's whatever PI3K, if you care, if anyone cares.

通过肌肉，有胰岛素依赖性途径通过，显然是胰岛素，这就是 PI3K，如果你关心的话，如果有人关心的话。

And then there is insulin independent, which is through exercise.

然后是不依赖胰岛素​​的，这是通过锻炼实现的。

And how glucose moves from the bloodstream into the cells is through GLUT4 receptors.

葡萄糖如何从血流转移到细胞中是通过 GLUT4 受体。

When you exercise, you increase the density of GLUT4 receptors to the surface just by doing activity.

当您运动时，只需进行活动即可增加表面 GLUT4 受体的密度。

It doesn't require insulin.

它不需要胰岛素。

You are able to then move glucose out of the bloodstream into cells.

然后，您可以将葡萄糖从血液中转移到细胞中。

And again, insulin resistance is at the heart of so many of the problems that we're seeing.

再说一次，胰岛素抵抗是我们所看到的许多问题的核心。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Do you think that most people, including the, I'll just say it, the public health officials in charge understand that?

你认为大多数人，包括我只是说一下，负责公共卫生的官员都明白这一点吗？

The points that you just made.

你刚才提出的观点。

Clearly, one doesn't have to even have a degree in medicine or science of any sort to look around and say, "Okay, there are a lot of people suffering from obesity." And we are hearing more and more about the negative effects on brain, on other aspects of mental health and physical health, and the interrelatedness of mental health and obesity.

显然，一个人甚至不需要拥有任何医学或科学学位，就能环顾四周并说：“好吧，有很多人患有肥胖症。”我们越来越多地听到关于大脑、心理健康和身体健康其他方面的负面影响，以及心理健康和肥胖之间的相互关系。

Dr. Chris Palmer from Harvard Medical School-

哈佛医学院 Chris Palmer 博士-

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

He's a good friend, yes

他是一个好朋友，是的

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

yeah, wonderful person, former guest on this podcast, very popular episode, has really been championing this issue, as have a few folks at Stanford and elsewhere, this new field of so-called metabolic psychiatry, the link between brain health, mental health, and metabolic health.

是的，很棒的人，这个播客的前嘉宾，非常受欢迎的一集，一直在支持这个问题，斯坦福大学和其他地方的一些人也一样，这个所谓的代谢精神病学的新领域，大脑健康，心理健康和代谢健康之间的联系。

But putting all that aside, do you think that most public health officials understand that muscle contraction increases GLUT4 expression at the level of muscle, which then grabs more nutrients from the bloodstream, which then lends itself to all sorts of positive health benefits and diverts from these negative health benefits?

但抛开所有这些，你认为大多数公共卫生官员是否明白肌肉收缩会增加肌肉水平上的 GLUT4 表达，然后肌肉从血液中获取更多营养，从而带来各种积极的健康益处并转移这些负面的健康益处？

Why isn't that on every billboard?

为什么不是每个广告牌上都有这个？

It's such a simple concept in principle.

原则上这是一个非常简单的概念。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Why aren't we hearing this?

为什么我们没有听到这个？

Do they even require PE in school anymore?

他们在学校还需要体育吗？

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

I am not sure, but this is a problem.

我不确定，但这是一个问题。

I don't know, but I would say if two-thirds of our population is either overweight or obese, the health officials may fall into that category, or at least two-thirds of them, potentially.

我不知道，但我想说，如果我们人口的三分之二超重或肥胖，那么卫生官员可能就属于这一类，或者至少有三分之二的人可能属于这一类。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah, and I'm not blaming them.

是的，我并没有责怪他们。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Of course.

当然。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I'm just wondering.

我只是想知道。

I don't think we hear this message enough, that muscle contraction is medicine.

我认为我们听到的这个信息还不够多，即肌肉收缩是良药。

We've heard that from Dr. Casey Means.

我们从凯西·米恩斯博士那里听到了这一点。

We're hearing about it from you, that muscle, and muscle health in particular...

我们从你那里听到了关于肌肉，特别是肌肉健康的问题……

And again, I'm so grateful that we're talking about muscle health and muscle quality and muscle as a tissue that utilizes nutrients and can divert things towards health and away from disease as opposed to just muscle size, because I think most people hear muscle and they think eat for muscle, and they just think muscle size.

再说一遍，我很感激我们谈论肌肉健康和肌肉质量，以及肌肉作为一种利用营养物质的组织，可以将事物转向健康，远离疾病，而不仅仅是肌肉大小，因为我认为大多数人听到肌肉，他们认为为了肌肉而吃，他们只是想到肌肉大小。

And frankly, most people don't want increased muscle size.

坦率地说，大多数人不希望增加肌肉大小。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

But if you train for hypertrophy-

但如果你训练增肌——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

...

...

which is muscle size, very difficult to get, especially as you age, by the way.

顺便说一句，这是肌肉大小，很难获得，尤其是随着年龄的增长。

Becomes much more difficult.

变得更加困难。

But you will also get strength and power.

但你也会获得力量和力量。

If an individual struggles, if they fall, they break a hip, they have to be able to get up off the floor.

如果一个人挣扎，如果他们跌倒，他们摔断臀部，他们必须能够从地板上站起来。

You have to be able to travel on an airplane and put your stuff overhead or pick up your toddler.

您必须能够乘坐飞机旅行并将您的东西放在头顶上或接起您的孩子。

Mine weighs 40 pounds.

我的重40磅。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Or go down stairs.

或者下楼梯。

What Dr. Peter Attia has really been emphasizing, that a lot of life-ending injuries occur by virtue of people failing to do the eccentric movements that essentially look like stepping down off something.

彼得·阿提亚博士真正强调的是，许多致命的伤害是由于人们未能做出本质上看起来像是从某物上下来的古怪动作而发生的。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I've had to have this discussion with both my parents.

我必须和我的父母双方讨论这个问题。

It was a little bit uncomfortable, frankly, because no one wants to be told, "Hey, listen, here are the things that can potentially kill you.

坦率地说，这有点不舒服，因为没有人愿意被告知，“嘿，听着，这些东西可能会杀死你。

Don't worry so much about going up stairs.

不用太担心上楼梯。

Make sure you hold the railing."

一定要扶住栏杆。”

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Both of my parents being able-bodied, I'm grateful again for that, but be careful as you walk down stairs.

我的父母都身体健全，对此我再次表示感谢，但是下楼梯时要小心。

One fracture at age 79, 80, the age of my parents in-- I think I'm going to get these numbers a bit wrong, I'm sure, but I think Peter mentions that that leads to death in a large percentage of people that-

一次骨折发生在 79 岁、80 岁时，我父母的年龄——我想我肯定会弄错这些数字，但我认为彼得提到这会导致很大一部分人死亡——

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Yes

是的

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

break that hip or break that leg or break that wrist, even.

摔断臀部、摔断腿、摔断手腕，甚至。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Yes, and the other thing that-

是的，还有另一件事——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Not because of the break itself, but because of the inactivity that results.

不是因为休息本身，而是因为由此导致的不活动。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

And that's absolutely right.

这是绝对正确的。

The skeletal muscle inactivity causes a derangement of metabolism.

骨骼肌不活动会导致新陈代谢紊乱。

The derangement of metabolism will then go on to get fatty acid infiltration, fatty acids that infiltrate into skeletal muscle.

新陈代谢的紊乱会继续导致脂肪酸渗透，脂肪酸渗透到骨骼肌中。

Once that happens, you now have a decreased flux.

一旦发生这种情况，通量就会减少。

You're not moving muscle glycogen.

你没有移动肌糖原。

You're not getting rid of these ceramides or these diacylglycerols that build up that potentially lead to and compound insulin resistance, skeletal muscle insulin resistance.

你并没有摆脱这些神经酰胺或二酰甘油，它们的积累可能会导致和复合胰岛素抵抗、骨骼肌胰岛素抵抗。

You then generate a low-grade inflammation that is constantly going on.

然后，您会产生持续持续的低度炎症。

If 40% of your body weight is skeletal muscle, and you are not maintaining the health of skeletal muscle, you are walking around with an inflammatory bag on you.

如果你体重的 40% 是骨骼肌，而你没有保持骨骼肌的健康，那么你走路时就会带着炎症包。

This decline in aging, people think that we go through a linear decline in aging.

这种衰老的下降，人们认为我们经历了线性的衰老下降。

We don't.

我们不这样做。

We go through a series of catabolic crises.

我们经历了一系列分解代谢危机。

And a catabolic crises would be something like someone falls, breaks a hip, and never regains full functioning.

分解代谢危机就像某人摔倒、髋部骨折，并且永远无法恢复全部功能。

Or someone gets pneumonia, is on bed rest for five days or a period of time This compounds upon itself.

或者有人得了肺炎，卧床休息五天或一段时间，这种情况会自行加重。

These catabolic crises compound upon themselves, and individuals never return to full function.

这些分解代谢危机会自行加剧，个体永远无法恢复全部功能。

The thing that becomes interesting and very important is that when you maintain the health of skeletal muscle, low muscle mass would be an early indication of osteoporosis.

有趣且非常重要的是，当您保持骨骼肌的健康时，低肌肉质量将是骨质疏松症的早期迹象。

Bone attaches to muscle, muscle pulls bone, creates a load, a stimulation that is required for building.

骨骼附着在肌肉上，肌肉拉动骨骼，产生构建所需的负载和刺激。

Imagine the astronauts or an individual who, again, is on bed rest.

想象一下宇航员或一个再次卧床休息的人。

When you are training and you are putting force and load on your body, then you're able to maintain the entirety of the architecture of the body.

当您训练并向身体施加力量和负荷时，您就能够维持身体的整体结构。

And this all makes useful sense, but it is underappreciated as an organ system.

这一切都很有意义，但它作为一个器官系统却没有得到充分的重视。

And the other thing about skeletal muscle and depression and mood is that skeletal muscle and inflammation, as you contract it, the duration and intensity of contraction releases myokines.

关于骨骼肌、抑郁和情绪的另一件事是骨骼肌和炎症，当你收缩它时，收缩的持续时间和强度会释放肌因子。

So myokines, have you heard of myokines?

那么肌动蛋白，你听说过肌动蛋白吗？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I have, but please educate us.

我有，不过请多多指教。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Yes.

是的。

So myokines are peptide hormones, again, skeletal muscle is an endocrine organ, that travel throughout the body.

所以肌因子是肽类激素，骨骼肌是一种内分泌器官，在全身传播。

The most famous one is interleukin 6.

最著名的是白细胞介素6。

You have interleukin 15, interleukin 6.

您有白细胞介素 15、白细胞介素 6。

These affect lipolysis.

这些都会影响脂肪分解。

They affect the utilization of glucose.

它们影响葡萄糖的利用。

There's this idea of training in a low glycogen state that might increase more robust amounts of these interleukins-

有一种想法是，在低糖原状态下进行训练可能会增加这些白细胞介素的数量——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Is that right?

是这样吗？

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

...

...

these myokines, which is-

这些肌因子，即-

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Great, because I love training fasted in the morning

太棒了，因为我喜欢早上禁食训练

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

...

...

which is interesting.

这很有趣。

And we always think about exercise as this way to improve metabolism.

我们总是认为运动是改善新陈代谢的一种方式。

It doesn't so much do that at rest, but what it does is when you exercise, you improve, again, glucose utilization, but also you release these myokines.

它在休息时并没有那么多作用，但它的作用是当你运动时，你再次提高葡萄糖利用率，但你也释放这些肌因子。

It's not just the physical activity, but it's also the subsequent effects and the subsequent molecules that skeletal muscle releases.

这不仅仅是身体活动，还包括骨骼肌释放的后续效应和后续分子。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I just want to say, realizing I'm interrupting, amen to that.

我只是想说，意识到我打扰了，阿们。

So often people look at how many calories were burned in a given bout of resistance training, and while that is perhaps interesting, the wavefront of other endocrine and molecular factors that set in motion by proper resistance training-

人们经常关注在一次给定的阻力训练中燃烧了多少卡路里，虽然这可能很有趣，但通过适当的阻力训练启动的其他内分泌和分子因素的波前-

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

to me, is the most interesting and important aspect.

对我来说，这是最有趣和最重要的方面。

Meaning in the hours afterwards, sure, you're going to continue to burn calories at an elevated rate, but it's all the effects of the hormones and, as you're pointing out, the interleukins that last hours and hours and even days that, at least to my mind or my read of the literature, are the most interesting, the most beneficial.

当然，这意味着在接下来的几个小时内，你会继续以较高的速度燃烧卡路里，但正如你所指出的，这都是荷尔蒙和白细胞介素的影响，持续数小时甚至数天，至少在我看来或我读到的文献中，这是最有趣、最有益的。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

It's fascinating, and actually the science is relatively new.

这很有趣，而且实际上这门科学相对较新。

It came out of Pedersen's lab, Bente Pedersen in Copenhagen.

它来自 Pedersen 位于哥本哈根的 Bente Pedersen 实验室。

Extraordinary work.

非凡的工作。

She is in part an immunologist and exercise physiologist.

她既是免疫学家又是运动生理学家。

When you train and you release these myokines, which are based on the intensity and duration of your activity, release something called capsaicin B and irisin.

当您训练并释放这些肌因子时，这些肌因子取决于您活动的强度和持续时间，并释放出一种称为辣椒素 B 和鸢尾素的物质。

These myokines then stimulate BDNF release in the brain.

这些肌因子随后刺激大脑中 BDNF 的释放。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Brain-derived neurotrophic factor.

脑源性神经营养因子。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Exactly.

正是如此。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Which is a component of neurogenesis.

这是神经发生的一个组成部分。

When we think about the plethora of activity of what skeletal muscle does, it is no surprise that number one, it's free to move.

当我们想到骨骼肌的大量活动时，第一点就是它可以自由移动，这并不奇怪。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Can I just mention something about BDNF, if I may?

如果可以的话，我可以提一下有关 BDNF 的事情吗？

I spent much of my earlier career working on neuroplasticity brain development, and BDNF, brain-derived neurotrophic factor, gets mentioned from time to time, and as you mentioned, it's involved in different neurogenesis pathways.

我早期职业生涯的大部分时间都在研究神经可塑性大脑发育，BDNF（脑源性神经营养因子）时常被提及，正如您提到的，它涉及不同的神经发生途径。

But I think one of its most interesting effects is its role in consolidating existing connections, what we call synaptic connections in the brain.

但我认为它最有趣的作用之一是它在巩固现有连接（我们称之为大脑中的突触连接）方面的作用。

And I'm so glad you mentioned this because what you're effectively saying is that doing resistance training properly sets in motion a molecular cascade that feeds back to a molecular cascade within the brain that reinforces the neural circuits that exist.

我很高兴你提到这一点，因为你实际上是在说，正确进行阻力训练会启动分子级联，该分子级联会反馈到大脑内的分子级联，从而增强现有的神经回路。

And one of the hallmarks of aging is essentially a degradation of neural circuitry.

衰老的标志之一本质上是神经回路的退化。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Sometimes in extreme cases like Alzheimer's or other forms of dementia, Parkinson's, et cetera.

有时在极端情况下，如阿尔茨海默氏症或其他形式的痴呆症、帕金森氏症等。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But we know that the volume of gray matter of neurons within the brain declines with age.

但我们知道，大脑内神经元灰质的体积会随着年龄的增长而减少。

We know that the neural circuitry suffers, the speed of neuronal transmission suffers, and it's long been observed, but only now objectively substantiated, that exercise can not just maintain, but even improve brain function over time.

我们知道，神经回路会受到影响，神经元传输速度也会受到影响，而且人们很早就观察到，但直到现在才得到客观证实，随着时间的推移，锻炼不仅可以维持甚至改善大脑功能。

And so, thank you for allowing me to kind of expand on what you just said.

因此，感谢您允许我扩展您刚才所说的内容。

I just think that if ever there was a potent medicine for improving brain health, it's exercise, and in particular, resistance exercise.

我只是认为，如果有一种有效的药物可以改善大脑健康，那就是运动，尤其是抗阻运动。

I think the case for cardiovascular exercise is probably that it maintains the components of blood flow that are also critical for the brain.

我认为心血管锻炼的理由可能是它可以维持对大脑也至关重要的血流成分。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Yes, and certainly no one is arguing the importance of cardiovascular activity and VO2 max.

是的，当然没有人争论心血管活动和最大摄氧量的重要性。

We can appreciate that.

我们对此表示赞赏。

On the flip side of that, skeletal muscle has not had its moment yet, and in particular, resistance training.

另一方面，骨骼肌还没有发挥作用，尤其是阻力训练。

You're not going to be able to be effective at maintaining a VO2 max if you do not have healthy skeletal muscle.

如果您没有健康的骨骼肌，您将无法有效维持最大摄氧量。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

You are not going to be able to be effective at nearly doing anything or surviving any kind of illness.

你几乎无法有效地做任何事情或在任何疾病中生存。

The higher the amount of skeletal muscle mass you have, the healthy skeletal muscle mass, the greater your survivability against nearly any kind of disease.

您拥有的骨骼肌质量（健康的骨骼肌质量）越高，您对几乎任何类型疾病的生存能力就越高。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Remarkable.

了不起。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

For example, cancer cachexia, which is the wasting that comes with cancer, kills 20% of individuals.

例如，癌症恶病质（癌症带来的消耗）导致 20% 的人死亡。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Wow.

哇。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Survivability comes from the health of skeletal muscle.

生存能力来自骨骼肌的健康。

Also, on that same note, contracting skeletal muscle, releasing myokines, interfaces with cells of the immune system.

同样，收缩骨骼肌，释放肌因子，与免疫系统细胞相互作用。

We've all heard of macrophages and the cytokine storm, interleukin 15, TNF, TNF alpha as being pro-inflammatory.

我们都听说过巨噬细胞和细胞因子风暴、白细胞介素 15、TNF、TNF α 具有促炎作用。

When the myokines, which are also interleukin 6 and interleukin 15, are released from skeletal muscle, they interplay, and they somewhat dampen the inflammatory effect and have a different effect on the entirety of the system.

当肌因子（即白细胞介素 6 和白细胞介素 15）从骨骼肌中释放时，它们会相互作用，在一定程度上抑制炎症作用，并对整个系统产生不同的影响。

When these, quote, "cytokines come from skeletal muscle."

当这些引用时，“细胞因子来自骨骼肌”。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Incredible.

难以置信。

So as long as we are now on the topic of exercise, let's make it concrete for people.

所以现在只要说到锻炼这个话题，我们就把它具体化给人们看吧。

We talked earlier about nutrition and specific gram amounts and calorie amounts and distribution, and that's just wonderful.

我们之前讨论过营养和特定的克数以及卡路里的量和分布，这真是太棒了。

And thanks also for explaining the mechanism and the incentive for doing this.

还要感谢您解释这样做的机制和动机。

Let's talk about resistance training.

我们来谈谈阻力训练。

And let's do this in a slightly different way than we did earlier.

让我们以与之前稍有不同的方式来完成此操作。

What is your program for resistance-

你的抵抗计划是什么-

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

training, and then we'll talk about what other people might consider for them, and maybe the same thing.

培训，然后我们会讨论其他人可能会为他们考虑什么，也许是同样的事情。

So if you could just actually walk us through your week.

所以，如果你能真正带领我们度过你的一周。

What does it look like?

它看起来像什么？

It could be Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, et cetera, or it could be how many days a week do you resistance train?

可以是周日、周一、周二等等，也可以是你每周进行多少天阻力训练？

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Of course.

当然。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right.

对。

Yep.

是的。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

You do know I don't do any kind of training.

你知道我不接受任何训练。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

I'm just kidding.

我只是开玩笑。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Well, I know based on your Instagram that you do, and now we know why.

嗯，根据你的 Instagram 我知道你是这么做的，现在我们知道原因了。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

So I have a wonderful trainer, Carlos Mata, shout out to him.

所以我有一位出色的教练，卡洛斯·马塔，向他大声喊叫。

Every Monday, I decide I don't want to train.

每个星期一，我都会决定不想训练。

And I know that-

我知道——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Really?

真的吗？

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Of course.

当然。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You don't enjoy it?

你不喜欢吗？

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

I do-

我愿意-

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Oh

噢

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

...

...

but it's usually suffering.

但通常都是痛苦的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right.

对。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

At least Monday.

至少星期一。

Every morning, I know Monday morning's going to come up, and I'm going to think about all the ways in which I could get out of it.

每天早上，我知道周一早上即将到来，我会思考如何摆脱它。

I never get out of it.

我永远无法摆脱它。

I always show up.

我总是出现。

I train consistently three days a week, and I train pretty heavy for my size.

我每周坚持训练三天，而且对于我的体型来说，我的训练量相当大。

So I'm maybe 110 pounds.

所以我可能有110磅。

What I do is I do some kind of push, pull, hinge, squat.

我所做的就是做一些推、拉、铰链、蹲等动作。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

On all three of those days?

那三天都是吗？

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

I do.

我愿意。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So you train your whole body-

所以你训练你的整个身体-

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

I do

我愿意

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

three days a week, separated by a day in between?

一周三天，中间间隔一天？

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

I do.

我愿意。

I do because, essentially, I'm working hard enough where I'm pretty exhausted.

我这样做是因为，从本质上讲，我工作得足够努力，但我已经很疲惫了。

So I came here, and you asked me if I trained this morning, Friday.

所以我来到这里，你问我周五早上是否训练过。

I'm off today.

我今天休息了

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Okay.

好的。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

But what I do is when I start, I think about...

但我所做的是，当我开始时，我会想......

Well, actually, Carlos thinks about this, but I'll do some kind of sled push.

好吧，实际上，卡洛斯考虑过这个，但我会做一些推雪橇的工作。

Sled push, it will be loaded.

推雪橇，就会装载。

It will be pretty heavy.

它会很重。

It gets my full body moving, and then we'll pick some kind of compound movements, whether it's a-

它让我的全身运动起来，然后我们会选择某种复合运动，无论是-

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Multi-joint movement

多关节运动

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

...

...

Mul- That's exactly right.

Mul- 完全正确。

A multi-joint movement through full range of motion.

通过全方位运动的多关节运动。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So for instance, a squat or a deadlift?

比如说，深蹲还是硬拉？

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

That's right.

没错。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

If somebody isn't skilled in squats or deadlifts, could they maybe hold onto a kettlebell of appropriate weight for them and do a kettlebell squat?

如果某人不擅长深蹲或硬拉，他们可以握住适合自己重量的壶铃并进行壶铃深蹲吗？

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

I'm going to give them an even better solution, and this is this concept that I learned from a PhD named Pat Davidson.

我将为他们提供一个更好的解决方案，这是我从帕特·戴维森博士那里学到的概念。

And he talks a lot about high ground, low ground movements, and a high ground movement would be something where you have contact.

他谈到了很多关于高地、低地运动的内容，而高地运动将是你有接触的地方。

Contact like a hack squat.

像哈克深蹲一样接触。

So ground.

所以接地。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

You have back support, leg support.

你有背部支撑、腿部支撑。

You are able to move in a way that fully contracts the muscle that you are focused on.

您能够以完全收缩您所关注的肌肉的方式移动。

We see a lot of people that go to the gym and kind of just do whatever, and that might be okay to maintain, but the goal should always be, and ladies, you're not going to get bulky, should be hypertrophy.

我们看到很多人去健身房，做任何事情，这可能是可以维持的，但目标应该始终是，女士们，你不会变得笨重，应该是肥大。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Which is hard to achieve, as you mentioned.

正如您提到的，这是很难实现的。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

It is hard to achieve, but you must focus because maintaining and growing skeletal muscle mass as you age, it becomes much more challenging.

这是很难实现的，但你必须集中注意力，因为随着年龄的增长，维持和增长骨骼肌质量会变得更具挑战性。

And so choosing high ground movements.

因此选择高地运动。

I would not have someone who is an unskilled lifter go in and do a front-loaded goblet squat.

我不会让一个不熟练的举重运动员去做前置高脚杯深蹲。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Or a free weight squat-

或者自由重量深蹲——

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

I wouldn't

我不会

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

or a deadlift.

或硬拉。

Right.

正确的。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

I wouldn't.

我不会。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

I would have them do high ground movements, and this is where machines are really, really wonderful.

我会让它们做高地运动，这就是机器真正非常美妙的地方。

People kind of will say, "Well, but you have to train for functional movement, and functional..." Well, what is that?

人们会说，“嗯，但是你必须训练功能性运动，功能性……”那么，那是什么？

We're training for life.

我们正在为生活而训练。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right.

对。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

You're training for life durability.

你正在训练生命的耐久性。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And if I may, anytime people say, "What's the best form of exercise?

如果可以的话，任何时候人们都会问：“最好的锻炼方式是什么？

How do you work out?" Et cetera, I always say, "Rule number one, definitely train, but don't get hurt." Or avoid getting hurt.

你锻炼得怎么样？”等等，我总是说，“第一条规则，一定要训练，但不要受伤。”或者避免受伤。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Right.

对。

That-

那——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I mean, the moment you-

我的意思是，当你——

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

That's it

就是这样

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

somebody approaches exercise and gets hurt, they're in trouble.

有人在锻炼时受伤了，他们就有麻烦了。

One of the best ways to get in shape for your entire life is to avoid getting injured.

一生保持身材的最佳方法之一就是避免受伤。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Or-

或者-

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But still train

但还是要训练

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

...

...

or train your entire life.

或训练你的一生。

If there are parents listening, thinking about your kids, there was a whole push where kids shouldn't do resistance training and shouldn't move load.

如果有家长在倾听，为你的孩子着想，就会有人强烈要求孩子不应该进行阻力训练，也不应该移动负重。

I look at my kids, they might not be doing one-rep maxes, but they're picking up kettlebells.

我看着我的孩子，他们可能没有做一次极限训练，但他们正在拿起壶铃。

They have-

他们有——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Really?

真的吗？

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Oh, yeah.

哦，是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

I was told growing up to not touch the weights until I was at least 18.

在我的成长过程中，我被告知至少 18 岁之前不要接触举重。

At 16, I started doing pull-ups, push-ups, sit-ups, and then pretty quickly moved into all the leg press, leg extension, all that stuff.

16 岁的时候，我开始做引体向上、俯卧撑、仰卧起坐，然后很快就开始做腿举、腿屈伸等等。

Couldn't help myself.

我无法自拔。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

But I would argue that outside normal play, someone is never too young to start, and frankly, never too old.

但我认为，除了正常的比赛之外，开始比赛永远不会太年轻，坦率地说，永远不会太老。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And body weight resistance is, in many cases, sufficient.

在许多情况下，体重阻力就足够了。

Right?

正确的？

I mean, as a kid, at night I would do sit-ups and handstand push-ups against my door.

我的意思是，小时候，晚上我会靠着门做仰卧起坐和倒立俯卧撑。

I couldn't do a proper handstand unassisted, but I'd flip over and then do the handstand push-ups until my mom would yell at me about the marks on the door.

我无法在没有帮助的情况下完成正确的倒立，但我会翻身，然后做倒立俯卧撑，直到我妈妈因为门上的痕迹对我大喊大叫。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Fair.

公平。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But that was pretty tough.

但这是相当艰难的。

Getting 10 repetitions of that was pretty tough.

重复 10 次是相当困难的。

But you're saying resistance training, what you said, high ground.

但你说的是阻力训练，你所说的，高地训练。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

High ground.

高地。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Okay.

好的。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Contact.

联系方式。

High contact.

高接触。

So when you are choosing motions that an individual is unskilled to do, I think-- Let's frame this, is that most people think about exercise for optimization and performance.

因此，当你选择一个人不熟练的动作时，我认为——让我们框架一下，大多数人都会考虑锻炼的目的是为了优化和表现。

But if we take that back a notch, and I think about my audience, and they are individuals that are, aside from the special operators and aside from the CEOs, they are 40-year-old women that are like, "Hey, all of a sudden, I noticed that my body composition has changed." I work with an amazing PhD.

但如果我们退一步，我想到我的观众，他们是除了特殊操作员和首席执行官之外的个人，他们是 40 岁的女性，她们会说，“嘿，突然间，我注意到我的身体成分发生了变化。”我和一位出色的博士一起工作。

Her name is Victoria Fleckar, and she has helped me bring into these pieces of how do we design and think about training protocols and training programs for the more mature individual.

她的名字叫维多利亚·弗莱卡（Victoria Fleckar），她帮助我了解了如何为更成熟的个人设计和思考培训协议和培训计划。

And when you think about these high ground movements, if someone has not trained And they're thinking, "Well, I don't want to fall, so I'm going to do box jumps." That plyometric movement, there is a high probability of injury.

当你想到这些高地运动时，如果有人没有受过训练，他们会想，“好吧，我不想摔倒，所以我要做跳箱。”那种增强式运动，受伤的概率很高。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah, I don't like box jumps.

是的，我不喜欢跳箱。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Or-- You don't like them.

或者——你不喜欢它们。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I don't like them because the eccentric loading that ends up being a lot of soreness, and it just takes a lot of them to generate what I'm trying to generate.

我不喜欢它们，因为偏心负载最终会带来很大的酸痛，而且只需要大量的它们就能产生我想要产生的东西。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

So that is exactly the point.

这正是重点。

Is an individual going to be able to generate enough force to make it meaningful?

一个人是否能够产生足够的力量来使其有意义？

And someone would argue, yes.

有人会争辩说，是的。

When I was a practicing geriatrician, and I was going through my fellowship, we did a number of metrics to look at strength.

当我还是一名执业老年病学家时，我正在接受我的研究金，我们做了一些指标来衡量力量。

And one of those was a sit and stand out of a chair.

其中之一是从椅子上坐起来和站起来。

So sit to stand, and that would've, for some people, have been considered a high-intensity interval.

因此，从坐到站，对于某些人来说，这被认为是高强度的间歇期。

The question becomes, is that enough to mount a response over time?

问题是，随着时间的推移，这是否足以引起回应？

And I would argue no. What do people need to do?

我认为不。人们需要做什么？

And that is when you train for hypertrophy, which is muscle growth, and let's say that is 5 to 10 reps, three, four to five sets, you pick.

那就是当你进行肥大训练时，也就是肌肉生长，假设是 5 到 10 次，三组、四到五组，你可以选择。

There's many different ways that it can get-

有很多不同的方式可以获得——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Where the final repetitions are challenging

最后的重复具有挑战性

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

...

...

where the load is enough.

负载足够的地方。

And there's wonderful data out of McMaster University that it doesn't have to be heavy weight as long as the stimulus is enough.

麦克马斯特大学有精彩的数据表明，只要刺激足够，就不必太重。

And then we take it back to what is the stimulus?

然后我们回到刺激因素是什么？

And the stimulus, the goal should be, are you moving the muscles that you are supposed to be doing, and are you generating enough activity to create adaptation and change?

刺激的目标应该是，你是否移动了你应该做的肌肉，并且你是否产生了足够的活动来创造适应和改变？

And so a high ground movement for someone who's listening to this and is thinking, "I need skeletal muscle health.

对于那些听着这个并思考“我需要骨骼肌健康”的人来说，这是一个高地运动。

I walk." Walking is wonderful, but is walking enough to maintain those Type 2 fibers?

我走路。”步行固然美妙，但步行足以维持这些 2 型纤维吗？

It's not.

它不是。

You will see a transition, and we've all seen our aging parents.

你会看到一个转变，我们都看到了年迈的父母。

My dad is in his 70s.

我的父亲已经70多岁了。

He's very fit, but he used to be a collegiate wrestler.

他非常健康，但他曾经是一名大学摔跤手。

He went to Wharton.

他去了沃顿商学院。

He was captain of his wrestling team.

他是摔跤队的队长。

Dad, you're a lot smaller.

爸爸，你还小了很多。

And part of the reason is the failure to focus on hypertrophy, and those are those Type 2 fibers, those Type 2 fibers that transition with age to more Type 1 fibers, those long, lean fibers.

部分原因是未能关注肥大，而这些纤维是 2 型纤维，随着年龄的增长，2 型纤维会转变为更多的 1 型纤维，即又长又瘦的纤维。

You go from bigger to bulky to less.

你从更大到笨重再到更小。

Choosing activities to maintain those fibers, also, these fibers are bigger.

选择活动来维持这些纤维，而且这些纤维更大。

This is where glucose disposal goes.

这就是葡萄糖处理的地方。

Choosing things like leg extension, it's not a bad thing.

选择诸如腿部伸展之类的东西，这并不是一件坏事。

If you get stronger and you have stronger muscles, then you will have more power.

如果你变得更强壮并且拥有更强的肌肉，那么你就会拥有更多的力量。

You'll be able to generate more force.

你将能够产生更多的力量。

You will be much less likely to fall.

你跌倒的可能性就会大大降低。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

And you'll be healthier overall because of muscle health.

由于肌肉健康，您整体上会更健康。

So maybe we could just list off some of the movements that people could think about in terms of these high ground movements.

因此，也许我们可以列出一些人们可以根据这些高地运动来思考的运动。

You mentioned hack squats.

你提到了哈克深蹲。

Leg presses come to mind.

我想到了腿部推举。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Leg extensions.

腿部伸展。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Leg extensions.

腿部伸展。

Leg curls.

腿卷曲。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Leg curls.

腿卷曲。

Lat pull-downs with a supported back.

背部有支撑的高位下拉。

Any kind of-

任何一种——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Rows

行数

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

...

...

rows.

行。

A supported row.

受支撑的行。

Again-

再说一遍——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

These are mostly machine exercises that you're describing

这些主要是您描述的机器练习

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

They are.

他们是。

They are, which is unusual.

他们是，这很不寻常。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Cables or machines.

电缆或机器。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

So cables would be considered low ground because you're kind of in space.

因此，电缆将被视为低地，因为您处于太空中。

And if you think about it, what takes someone out in their 40s?

如果你想一想，是什么让一个 40 多岁的人愿意出去呢？

What takes someone out of the game?

是什么让某人退出游戏？

It's a tendon injury.

这是肌腱损伤。

Tendinopathies, whether it's a shoulder, whether it's a hamstring, whether it's a hip, and part of the reason is there's muscular strength.

肌腱病，无论是肩膀、腿筋、臀部，部分原因是肌肉力量。

We focus on muscular strength, but there's also tendon strength, which takes time.

我们关注肌肉力量，但也有肌腱力量，这需要时间。

And when you get tendinopathies, you get the thickening of these tissues.

当您患有肌腱病时，这些组织就会增厚。

People will say that tendon lays down much slower, that the collagen turnover is much slower, but actually, muscle turns over 1% to 2% per day.

人们会说肌腱的铺设速度要慢得多，胶原蛋白的更新速度也要慢得多，但实际上，肌肉每天的更新速度超过 1% 到 2%。

Tendons turn over maybe 0.5% to 1.5% per day.

肌腱每天的周转率可能为 0.5% 至 1.5%。

It's not that substantially slower.

速度并没有那么慢。

It's highly active tissue.

它是高度活跃的组织。

You need blood flow.

你需要血液流动。

You have to treat your body with respect that if you think you can always train the way that you did when you were younger and just hit those heavy weights, if you get injured and you are not allowing your tendons to keep up, then overall injury over time, again, this is what we would call maybe not a catabolic crises, but close.

你必须尊重你的身体，如果你认为你总是可以像年轻时那样训练，只是打那些大重量，如果你受伤了，你不允许你的肌腱跟上，那么随着时间的推移，整体受伤，这就是我们所说的可能不是分解代谢危机，而是接近的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

What is the total duration of a resistance training workout that the typical person could use?

一般人可以进行的阻力训练的总持续时间是多少？

I make it a point to try and warm up over the course of about 10 to 15 minutes and then do 50 to 60 minutes of hard work, but I always leave some gas in the tank.

我会在大约 10 到 15 分钟的时间内尝试热身，然后进行 50 到 60 分钟的艰苦工作，但我总是在油箱中留下一些气体。

It's the rare, I would say, 5% of my total resistance training workouts, and I also train three times a week, although I divide my body up into different splits.

我想说，这是很少见的，占我总阻力训练的 5%，而且我每周也训练 3 次，尽管我将身体分为不同的部分。

That's my case, and I run three days.

我的情况就是这样，我跑了三天。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Well, you are much larger than me.

嗯，你比我大得多。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Well, it's the case now that I try and hit each muscle group directly once per week and then indirectly another day per week.

嗯，现在的情况是，我尝试每周直接锻炼每个肌肉群一次，然后每周间接锻炼一天。

So if legs are on Monday, that's direct, but the indirect leg training is actually the HIIT workout on Friday, sprinting.

所以如果周一是腿部训练，那就是直接训练，但间接腿部训练实际上是周五的 HIIT 训练，冲刺。

As I-

正如我——

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

See, I love that.

看，我喜欢那个。

That's wonderful

太棒了

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

yeah.

是的。

I think that the three days per week whole body workout, I think, would work for a lot of people just to take the complexity out of it.

我认为每周三天的全身锻炼对很多人来说都是有效的，只是为了消除其中的复杂性。

So is it the case that the entire workout could be constrained to 45 to 60 minutes?

那么整个锻炼时间是不是可以限制在45到60分钟呢？

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Absolutely.

绝对的。

And for a new lifter, they're going to get the most gains.

对于新举重运动员来说，他们将获得最大的收益。

What we find is that if an individual is what we would consider a beginner, you will see after they go through a neurological adaptation, is that they will get more growth and potentially progress.

我们发现，如果一个人是我们所认为的初学者，那么在他们经历神经适应之后，你会发现他们会获得更多的成长和潜在的进步。

A new lifter could progress weekly, whereas a more advanced lifter, I would say we would be considered more advanced.

一个新的举重运动员可以每周进步，而一个更先进的举重运动员，我想说我们会被认为更先进。

We've been lifting our whole lives.

我们一生都在举重。

That for us to make changes, it's much more challenging for us to put on size or even get stronger.

对于我们来说，要做出改变，增加体型甚至变得更强对我们来说更具挑战性。

Yes, there is a particular cadence, but our improvements might be minute.

是的，有一个特定的节奏，但我们的改进可能是微小的。

And when you're thinking about designing a program, the current recommendations for physical activity, which by the way, do you know 75, roughly 70, maybe it's 78% of individuals do not meet physical activity guidelines

当你考虑设计一个计划时，目前关于身体活动的建议，顺便说一下，你知道吗？ 75、大约 70、也许 78% 的人不符合身体活动指南

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And what are those again?

那些又是什么？

5,000 steps per day?

每天 5,000 步？

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

150 minutes of moderate to vigorous activity with two days a week of resistance training.

150 分钟的中等到剧烈活动，每周进行两天的阻力训练。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Per week.

每周。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So 150 minutes.

所以150分钟。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Total.

总计。

And two days a week of resistance training.

每周进行两天的阻力训练。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Plus two days a week of resistance training.

再加上每周两天的阻力训练。

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:

加布里埃尔·里昂博士：

Yeah.

是的。

So that is, what?

那就是，什么？

30 minutes, seven days a week of activity.

每周 7 天，每次 30 分钟的活动。

Just to put that into perspective, that is how sedentary we are.

从这个角度来看，我们就是这么久坐的。

50% of Americans are not even training.

50% 的美国人甚至没有接受过培训。