Dr. Ethan Kross: How to Control Your Inner Voice & Increase Your Resilience
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.
欢迎来到休伯曼实验室播客，我们在这里讨论科学和基于科学的日常生活工具。
I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.
我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。
And I'm wearing these red lens wind down Roka glasses because we are recording this late at night, which is unusual for us, and bright light, in particular, short wavelength bright light in the blue and green part of the spectrum, quashes melatonin, and it makes it hard to sleep.
我戴着这些红色镜片的 Roka 眼镜，因为我们在深夜录制，这对我们来说是不寻常的，而强光，特别是光谱中蓝色和绿色部分的短波长强光，会抑制褪黑激素，使人难以入睡。
And I want to sleep tonight.
我今晚想睡觉。
These red lens glasses filter out the green and blue short wavelengths that would otherwise disrupt my sleep.
这些红色镜片眼镜可以过滤掉绿色和蓝色的短波长，否则会扰乱我的睡眠。
My guest today is Dr. Ethan Kross.
今天我的客人是伊森·克罗斯博士。
Dr. Ethan Kross is a professor of psychology at the University of Michigan and the director of the Emotion and Self Control Laboratory.
伊森·克罗斯博士是密歇根大学心理学教授、情绪与自我控制实验室主任。
He is also the author of the best-selling book, "Chatter: The Voice in Our Head and How to Harness It." Today's discussion is a really special one because we discuss something that each and all of us have, which is a voice in our head that is our voice, and that voice can range from encouraging to discouraging.
他还是畅销书《喋喋不休：我们头脑中的声音以及如何利用它》的作者。今天的讨论非常特别，因为我们讨论的是我们每个人都有的东西，这是我们头脑中的一个声音，就是我们的声音，这个声音可以是鼓励的，也可以是令人沮丧的。
It can be repetitive in ways that can be very intrusive, and it has a profound effect on our emotional state, our confidence, our levels of anxiety, and indeed, what we are capable of achieving in life.
它可能会以一种非常具有侵入性的方式重复，并且对我们的情绪状态、我们的信心、我们的焦虑程度，甚至我们在生活中能够实现的目标产生深远的影响。
Dr. Ethan Kross's laboratory has done groundbreaking research to understand what is the origin of this voice in our heads, and can and should we control it?
伊森·克罗斯博士的实验室进行了开创性的研究，以了解我们头脑中这种声音的来源是什么，以及我们是否可以并且应该控制它？
And indeed, the answer is yes.
事实上，答案是肯定的。
Today's discussion gets into many things that people struggle with and many things that you can do to improve your life, such as how to regulate the chatter in your head, how to overcome ruminations and intrusive thoughts, and we also discuss what to do with your actual voice.
今天的讨论涉及许多人们所困扰的事情以及许多可以改善生活的事情，例如如何调节头脑中的喋喋不休，如何克服沉思和侵入性想法，我们还讨论了如何处理您的实际声音。
For instance, data pointing to the fact that venting your negative emotions to others is actually bad.
例如，数据表明，向他人发泄负面情绪实际上是不好的。
It tends to amplify bad emotions.
它往往会放大不良情绪。
We talk about that research.
我们谈论这项研究。
We also talk about other forms of outward speech and inward speech, that inner voice that you can partake in in order to improve your emotional state and shift your emotional state.
我们还讨论其他形式的外在言语和内在言语，即您可以参与的内在声音，以改善您的情绪状态并改变您的情绪状态。
So today's discussion really centers around common questions and common scenarios and common challenges that everybody grapples with.
因此，今天的讨论实际上围绕每个人都面临的常见问题、常见场景和常见挑战。
And of course, we all have a voice in our head.
当然，我们脑子里都有一个声音。
Today, you're going to learn to listen to it, to regulate it, and indeed, to steer it in the direction of mental health, physical health, and performance.
今天，你将学习倾听它、调节它，甚至引导它朝着心理健康、身体健康和表现的方向发展。
I'm also excited to tell you that Dr. Ethan Kross soon has another book coming out entitled "Shift: Managing Your Emotions So They Don't Manage You." And I tremendously enjoyed "Chatter," his first book, and I very much look forward to reading "Shift" when it comes out.
我还很高兴地告诉您，伊森·克罗斯博士很快就会出版另一本书，题为《转变：管理你的情绪，这样他们就不会管理你》。我非常喜欢他的第一本书《Chatter》，我非常期待阅读《Shift》的出版。
We provide links to the work in Dr. Ethan Kross's laboratory, as well as links to his previous and forthcoming book in the show note captions.
我们在节目注释标题中提供了 Ethan Kross 博士实验室工作的链接，以及他之前和即将出版的书籍的链接。
Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.
在开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。
It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public.
然而，我的愿望和努力的一部分是向公众提供有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本消费者信息。
In keeping with that theme, I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast.
为了与这个主题保持一致，我要感谢今天播客的赞助商。
Our first sponsor is ExpressVPN.
我们的第一个赞助商是 ExpressVPN。
ExpressVPN is a virtual private network that keeps your data secure and private.
ExpressVPN 是一个虚拟专用网络，可确保您的数据安全和私密。
It does that by routing your internet activity through their servers and encrypting it so that no one can see or sell your data.
它通过他们的服务器路由您的互联网活动并对其进行加密，以便没有人可以看到或出售您的数据来做到这一点。
Now, I'm personally familiar with the effects of not securing my data well enough.
现在，我个人已经熟悉了数据保护不够好的后果。
Several years ago, I had one of my bank accounts hacked, and it was a terrible amount of work to try and have that reversed and the account secured.
几年前，我的一个银行账户被黑了，要尝试扭转局面并确保账户安全是一项艰巨的工作。
So after that happened, I talked to my friends in the tech community, and they told me that even though you may think your internet connection is secure, oftentimes it is not, especially if you're using Wi-Fi networks such as those on planes and hotels, at coffee shops, and other public areas.
因此，在那件事发生之后，我与科技界的朋友交谈，他们告诉我，即使您可能认为自己的互联网连接是安全的，但通常情况并非如此，尤其是当您使用 Wi-Fi 网络（例如飞机、酒店、咖啡店和其他公共场所的 Wi-Fi 网络）时。
In fact, even when you're on the internet at home, your data may not be as secure as you think.
事实上，即使您在家上网，您的数据也可能不像您想象的那么安全。
The great thing about ExpressVPN is that I don't even notice that it's running since the connection it provides is so fast.
ExpressVPN 的伟大之处在于，我什至没有注意到它正在运行，因为它提供的连接速度非常快。
I have it on my computer and on my phone, and I just keep it on whenever I'm connected to the internet.
我的电脑和手机上都有它，只要我连接到互联网，我就将其保持打开状态。
If you want to start protecting your internet activity using ExpressVPN, you can go to expressvpn.com/huberman, and you can get an extra three months free.
如果您想开始使用 ExpressVPN 保护您的互联网活动，您可以访问expressvpn.com/huberman，您可以获得额外三个月的免费服务。
Again, that's E-X-P-R-E-S-S-V-P-N.com/huberman to get an extra three months free.
再次强调，E-X-P-R-E-S-S-V-P-N.com/huberman 可以获得额外三个月的免费服务。
Today's episode is also brought to us by Eight Sleep.
今天的节目也是八觉给我们带来的。
Eight Sleep makes smart mattress covers with cooling, heating, and sleep tracking capacity.
August Sleep 生产具有冷却、加热和睡眠跟踪功能的智能床垫套。
One of the best ways to ensure that you get a great night's sleep every single night is to control the temperature of your sleeping environment.
确保您每晚睡个好觉的最佳方法之一是控制睡眠环境的温度。
And that's because in order to fall and stay deeply asleep, your body temperature actually has to drop by about one to three degrees.
这是因为为了入睡并保持深度睡眠，您的体温实际上必须下降约一到三度。
And in order to wake up feeling refreshed and energized, your body temperature actually has to increase by about one to three degrees.
为了醒来时感觉神清气爽、精力充沛，您的体温实际上必须升高约一到三度。
Eight Sleep makes it easy to control the temperature of your sleeping environment by allowing you to program the temperature of your mattress cover at the beginning, middle, and end of the night.
八睡眠让您可以轻松控制睡眠环境的温度，您可以在晚上开始、中间和结束时设置床垫罩的温度。
I've been sleeping on an Eight Sleep mattress cover for nearly four years now, and it has completely improved the quality of my sleep.
我已经睡在八睡眠床垫罩上近四年了，它完全改善了我的睡眠质量。
Eight Sleep has now launched their newest generation pod cover, the Pod 4 Ultra.
八睡眠现在推出了他们最新一代的 Pod 4 Ultra。
The Pod 4 Ultra has improved cooling and heating capacity, higher fidelity sleep tracking technology, and even has snoring detection that will automatically lift your head a few degrees to improve your airflow and stop your snoring.
Pod 4 Ultra 具有改进的冷却和加热能力、更高保真度的睡眠跟踪技术，甚至还具有打鼾检测功能，可以自动将您的头抬起几度，以改善气流并停止打鼾。
If you'd like to try an Eight Sleep mattress cover, go to eightsleep.com/huberman to access their Black Friday offer right now.
如果您想尝试八睡眠床垫套，请立即访问八睡眠.com/huberman 获取他们的黑色星期五优惠。
With this Black Friday discount, you can save up to $600 off on their Pod 4 Ultra.
通过这个黑色星期五折扣，您购买 Pod 4 Ultra 最多可节省 600 美元。
This is Eight Sleep's biggest sale of the year.
这是“Eight Sleep”今年最大的一次促销活动。
Eight Sleep currently ships to the USA, Canada, the UK, select countries in the EU, and Australia.
八睡眠目前运往美国、加拿大、英国、欧盟部分国家和澳大利亚。
Again, that's eightsleep.com/huberman.
再说一遍，这是八睡眠.com/huberman。
And now for my discussion with Dr. Ethan Kross.
现在我与伊森·克罗斯博士进行讨论。
Dr. Ethan Kross, welcome.
伊森·克罗斯博士，欢迎。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Great to be here.
很高兴来到这里。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right before we went hot mics, as they say, we were talking about interrupting one another, and the fact that you're from New York.
正如他们所说，就在我们开始讨论之前，我们正在谈论互相打扰，以及你来自纽约这一事实。
I'm going to try not to interrupt you because the audience doesn't like that.
我会尽量不打断你，因为观众不喜欢这样。
However, I am very interested in what you're going to tell us about emotion regulation, but especially this thing that you call chatter, the voice in our heads.
然而，我对你要告诉我们的关于情绪调节的内容非常感兴趣，尤其是你所说的喋喋不休，即我们头脑中的声音。
And Prior to learning about your work, I always thought that chatter and the voice in our heads was overwhelmingly negative.
在了解你的工作之前，我一直认为我们头脑中的喋喋不休和声音绝大多数都是负面的。
That's what we hear.
这就是我们所听到的。
How do you combat the negative voice in one's head?
如何对抗头脑中的负面声音？
But you have some very interesting ideas about the utility of chatter, like maybe how it even arose and what it's for.
但你对聊天的实用性有一些非常有趣的想法，比如它是如何产生的以及它的用途。
So maybe we start there.
所以也许我们从这里开始。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So I think this is a great question because the inner voice is something that we carry with us wherever we go, but we don't tend to learn what it is.
所以我认为这是一个很好的问题，因为内心的声音是我们随身携带的东西，无论我们走到哪里，但我们往往不知道它是什么。
Right?
正确的？
And actually, sometimes I get up there and speak to people, and they often wonder what is a purported serious scientist doing talking about a squishy topic like the voice inside our heads?
事实上，有时我站在那里与人们交谈，他们常常想知道一个所谓的严肃科学家在谈论像我们头脑中的声音这样的模糊话题时在做什么？
And it turns out that this is a remarkable tool of the human mind.
事实证明，这是人类思维的一个非凡工具。
So when I use the term inner voice, what I'm talking about is our ability to silently use language to reflect on things in our lives.
因此，当我使用“内心的声音”这个词时，我指的是我们默默地使用语言来反思生活中事物的能力。
And it turns out that's a type of Swiss Army knife that we possess.
事实证明，这是我们拥有的一种瑞士军刀。
It lets us do many different things.
它让我们可以做很多不同的事情。
So just from the outset, let me distinguish chatter from other inner voice operations.
因此，从一开始，让我将喋喋不休与其他内心声音操作区分开来。
I think of chatter as a dark side of the inner voice, and we'll get to that in a little bit.
我认为喋喋不休是内心声音的阴暗面，我们稍后会谈到这一点。
But having the ability to silently use language, that is a boon to the human condition.
但拥有默默使用语言的能力，这对人类状况来说是一种福音。
So I'll give you a couple of benefits that it serves.
因此，我将向您介绍它的一些好处。
What's your favorite sports team?
你最喜欢的运动队是哪支？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The Harlem Globetrotters because they're undefeated, as I understand.
哈莱姆环球旅行者队因为据我了解，他们保持不败。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Oh.
哦。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Best record in any sport.
任何运动中的最佳记录。
I don't think they've ever lost a game.
我不认为他们输过一场比赛。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Do they ever play against other teams?
他们和其他球队交手过吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The Washington Generals.
华盛顿将军。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Okay.
好的。
Sorry for the Washington Generals.
对不起华盛顿将军。
So if you were to go to a game and root for them, what would you say?
那么，如果你去看一场比赛并为他们加油，你会说什么？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Go, Globetrotters.
走吧，环球旅行者。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Go, Globetrotters.
走吧，环球旅行者。
Okay.
好的。
Can you repeat that phrase silently three times in your head right now?
现在你能在心里默默地重复这句话三遍吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yes.
是的。
Done.
完毕。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Okay.
好的。
You've just used your inner voice.
你刚刚使用了你内心的声音。
So your inner voice is part of what we call our verbal working memory system, basic system of the human mind that lets us do something that I think is both extraordinary but totally ordinary also.
因此，你内心的声音是我们所说的言语工作记忆系统的一部分，这是人类思维的基本系统，它让我们能够做一些我认为既非凡又完全普通的事情。
Your verbal working memory system, it's a mouthful, lets you keep information active for short periods of time.
你的言语工作记忆系统很长，可以让你在短时间内保持信息活跃。
So before we had cell phones, how did you memorize phone numbers?
那么在我们有手机之前，你是如何记住电话号码的呢？
What would you do?
你会怎么办？
Repeat it in your head.
在心里重复一遍。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, and it had sort of a song to it.
是的，它有一首歌曲。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I can remember my childhood phone number still, even though that number is long since gone.
我仍然记得儿时的电话号码，尽管那个号码早已不复存在。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Long since gone.
已经走了很久了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Even the whole area code's gone, in fact.
事实上，甚至整个区号都消失了。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Really?
真的吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, the number is probably still there, but under a different area code.
好吧，这个号码可能仍然存在，但区号不同。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Oh.
哦。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I know because I try calling it every once in a while.
我知道，因为我每隔一段时间就会尝试调用它。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Interesting.
有趣。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Well, it's funny.
嗯，这很有趣。
When I go through this content, I give talks or workshops, I often say, "2090501." Repeat that in your head three times.
当我浏览这些内容时，我经常说“2090501”。在心里重复这句话三遍。
That's my childhood phone number.
这是我小时候的电话号码。
I'm like, "Go give it a shot.
我想，“去尝试一下吧。
Give them a call." So for all I know, that person may be getting lots of phone calls.
给他们打电话。”据我所知，那个人可能会接到很多电话。
It's not my phone number.
这不是我的电话号码。
But that's your verbal working memory system.
但这是你的言语工作记忆系统。
You go to the grocery store, and you try to remember what you were supposed to get.
你去杂货店，试着记住你应该买什么。
Most people don't do that out loud, like, "Oh, crap.
大多数人不会大声这样做，比如，“哦，糟糕。
What was I supposed to get?
我应该得到什么？
Milk, cheese, eggs." You repeat that silently in your head.
牛奶、奶酪、鸡蛋。”你在心里默默地重复着这句话。
So that's one thing your inner voice allows you to do, keep information active, verbal information.
所以这是你内心的声音允许你做的一件事，保持信息活跃，口头信息。
Your inner voice also helps you simulate and plan.
你内心的声音也可以帮助你模拟和计划。
So before presentations or interviews, a lot of people report going over what they're going to say before that event.
因此，在演讲或采访之前，很多人都会报告说他们会在活动之前回顾一下他们要说的话。
Do you ever do this?
你曾经这样做过吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
My mode of preparation for things like solo podcasts and talks is, it's not scripted out line by line in advance, but I have a structure in my mind, and it's more like remembering the first line of each paragraph in my head, and then the rest just kind of falls out.
我为个人播客和演讲之类的事情做准备的方式是，它不是提前逐行写好脚本，而是我脑子里有一个结构，它更像是在我的脑海中记住每个段落的第一行，然后剩下的就掉下来了。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
We have a very similar style.
我们的风格非常相似。
I will bullet out what the key ideas are, and as long as I could bullet that out, I am good to go.
我将列出关键的想法，只要我能把它列出来，我就可以开始了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
But I will also rehearse those bullets in my head, A, B, C, D.
但我也会在脑海中排练这些子弹，A、B、C、D。
So, that's you using your inner voice as well.
所以，这也是你在使用你内心的声音。
Now, before a big presentation, like a live event, I will go over the opening to my presentation and sometimes just carry that dialogue through when I'm going for a walk around the hotel before the event.
现在，在大型演示之前，例如现场活动，我会回顾一下演示的开头，有时在活动开始前在酒店周围散步时，我会继续进行对话。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
May I ask about the walk?
我可以问一下步行吗？
When I prepare for live events or solo podcasts, and long before I was involved in either of those activities, for lectures of any kind or classroom discussions where I had to stand up in front of the class, I would find that walking and listening to a song would, maybe simultaneously, maybe separately, would dramatically shape the kind of cadence and energy of the delivery of the talk.
当我准备现场活动或独奏播客时，早在我参与其中任何一项活动之前，无论是任何类型的讲座或课堂讨论，我都必须站在全班同学面前，我会发现边走边听歌，也许同时，也许单独，会极大地塑造演讲的节奏和能量。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
I love the fact that you brought up songs there.
我喜欢你在那里带来歌曲。
So if we want to take a little detour here, so in my new book, "Shift," we talk about, or I talk about how the different shifters that exist to push your emotions around and sensation, sensory experiences are one powerful, and I would argue, often overlooked modality for shifting our emotions.
因此，如果我们想在这里绕一点弯路，那么在我的新书《转变》中，我们谈论，或者我谈论存在的不同转变者如何推动你的情绪和感觉，感官体验是一种强大的，我认为，经常被忽视的改变我们情绪的方式。
So if you ask people, "Why do you listen to music?" What do you think most people say?
因此，如果你问人们“你为什么听音乐？”你认为大多数人会说什么？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It makes me feel good.
这让我感觉很好。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Feel, right?
感觉吧？
It's about emotions.
这是关于情绪的。
Feel good.
感觉很好。
So one study, the number was around like 95, 96% of participants who were asked said exactly, gave the answer that you just gave.
所以一项研究，这个数字大约是 95，96% 的被问到的参与者准确地给出了你刚才给出的答案。
But then if you look at, in other studies, "Hey, the last time you felt anxious or angry or sad, what did you do to push your emotions around?" The number of people who report using music to modulate their experience drops way down 10% to 30%.
但如果你看看其他研究，“嘿，上次你感到焦虑、愤怒或悲伤时，你做了什么来控制你的情绪？”报告使用音乐来调节体验的人数下降了 10% 到 30%。
Music is a really powerful tool for modulating our emotions.
音乐是调节我们情绪的非常强大的工具。
Actually, an unintentional parenting victory for me was when my youngest daughter was around five or six, and I was coaching soccer.
事实上，对我来说，一次无意的养育胜利是在我最小的女儿五六岁左右的时候，当时我正在教足球。
I lived for these ...
我就是为了这些而活的……
soccer games on the weekend.
周末有足球比赛。
I wasn't one of these overbearing coaches who would go crazy on the sidelines.
我不是那些在场边发疯的专横教练之一。
It was just such joy to just watch these kids play.
看着这些孩子们玩耍真是太快乐了。
And typically, my daughter was really excited to go to the game, but one morning, she was just not into it at all.
通常情况下，我女儿很高兴能去看比赛，但有一天早上，她根本不感兴趣。
She was bummed out.
她很沮丧。
It was bumming me out.
这让我很沮丧。
I was catching her emotions.
我捕捉到了她的情绪。
We can talk about emotional contagion later.
我们可以稍后再讨论情绪感染。
And got into the car, and it just so happened that my cellphone was connected and the next song on the playlist happened to be Journey's "Don't Stop Believin'".
上了车，碰巧我的手机已接通，播放列表中的下一首歌曲恰好是 Journey 的《Don't Stop Believin'》。
So you know the song, I presume.
所以我想你知道这首歌。
Don't judge me for having this on my playlist, please.
请不要因为我的播放列表上有这个而评判我。
The song comes on and I start jamming out to it, singing out loud like an embarrassing dad.
歌曲一响起，我就开始即兴演奏，像一个尴尬的爸爸一样大声唱歌。
And then I look in the backseat and I find her bopping her head, and then the chorus comes.
然后我往后座看去，发现她在摇头，然后合唱响起。
We get really excited, and then I pull up to the soccer field, and she just bursts out of the car and is invigorated.
我们非常兴奋，然后我把车停到足球场，她从车里冲出来，精神抖擞。
That is the power of music to impact us.
这就是音乐影响我们的力量。
So I will often also have songs on prior to big talks that I'm getting ready to get in that mental frame of mind.
因此，在大型演讲之前，我也会经常播放一些歌曲，以帮助我进入那种心理状态。
And I don't think it's a coincidence that many athletes do this as well.
我认为许多运动员也这样做并不是巧合。
They've stumbled onto this tool that is quite powerful for pointing our emotional experience or our emotional trajectory in the direction we want it to point.
他们偶然发现了这个非常强大的工具，可以将我们的情感体验或情感轨迹指向我们想要的方向。
So
所以
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's interesting.
这很有趣。
I was thinking about music in reference to shifting emotion as you just gave an example of.
正如你刚才举的例子，我正在考虑音乐与情感的转变。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Feeling amotivated, and then your daughter's motivated by the-
感到有动力，然后你女儿的动力是——
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
"Don't stop." Right.
“别停下来。”正确的。
Okay, I'm not going to sing it.
好吧，我不会唱这首歌。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Keep going.
继续。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No.
不。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
We'll do it together.
我们会一起做。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I will not do that.
我不会那样做。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
And then no one will ever listen.
然后就没有人会听了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Someone will cut the clip, and they'll run it out, and they'll spool it out, and then no, I have a truly terrible singing voice.
有人会剪掉剪辑，他们会把它用完，然后他们会把它卷出来，然后不，我的歌声真的很糟糕。
But I wonder, has the study ever been done or something similar to this where people who are feeling pretty good or very good are exposed to sadder music and vice versa?
但我想知道，是否曾经做过这样的研究或类似的事情，让感觉很好或非常好的人接触更悲伤的音乐，反之亦然？
People who are feeling sad-
那些感到悲伤的人——
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
exposed to sort of ecstatic music or positive lyrics?
接触某种令人狂喜的音乐或积极的歌词？
Because I've often wondered whether or not humans like or dislike when things or people try and shift their state.
因为我经常想知道，当事物或人试图改变其状态时，人类是否喜欢或不喜欢。
I know in myself when I'm feeling upset about something, I don't want to feel upset.
我自己知道，当我对某事感到不安时，我不想感到不安。
I don't think anyone wants to feel upset.
我认为没有人愿意感到沮丧。
But if I hear a song that's positive, there's a moment where I'm like, I can feel it pulling on me.
但如果我听到一首积极的歌曲，有那么一刻我会觉得它在吸引我。
And you sort of know, I could follow that trajectory and probably get out of this.
你知道，我可以沿着这条轨迹走下去，并可能摆脱困境。
And sometimes one does, and sometimes one doesn't.
有时有人这样做，有时则不这样做。
And this gets to, I think, a more fundamental issue, which is why I'm asking, which is, are we supposed to feel our emotions as a way to sort of dissolve them when we don't want them, kind of the cathartic approach, or would listening to sad music when we're sad just amplify the sadness?
我认为，这涉及到一个更根本的问题，这就是为什么我要问，即，我们是否应该将感受情绪作为一种在我们不想要它们时消解它们的方式，一种宣泄方法，或者当我们悲伤时听悲伤的音乐只会放大悲伤？
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
These are great questions, and they touch on a couple of amazingly important issues that we need to get into.
这些都是很好的问题，它们涉及到我们需要解决的几个非常重要的问题。
So let's just do them serially.
所以让我们串行地进行它们。
So number one, has the study been done when you expose people to different kinds of music, sad versus arousing, happy music?
那么第一，当你让人们接触不同类型的音乐（悲伤音乐与振奋人心的快乐音乐）时，这项研究是否已经完成？
Do you see that push people's emotions around?
你看到这会影响人们的情绪吗？
Yes.
是的。
In fact, sensory tools like music or visual images are one of the most powerful tools that we have in our arsenal for pushing people's emotions around in the context of experiments.
事实上，音乐或视觉图像等感官工具是我们在实验中推动人们情绪的最强大的工具之一。
So we want to induce a particular kind of state, we can play certain kinds of music or show people images that are designed to elicit positive or negative emotional experiences.
因此，我们想要诱发一种特定的状态，我们可以播放某些类型的音乐或向人们展示旨在引发积极或消极情绪体验的图像。
So images being another sensory modality, vision.
所以图像是另一种感官形态，即视觉。
So that's number one.
所以这是第一。
Number two, there's this very interesting phenomenon where when we are in a particular emotional state, let's say we're feeling sad, we often don't reflexively seek out the happy music.
第二，有一个非常有趣的现象，当我们处于某种特定的情绪状态时，比如说我们感到悲伤，我们通常不会本能地寻找快乐的音乐。
We don't go to Journey.
我们不去旅程。
Instead, we go to Adele, right?
相反，我们去找阿黛尔，对吧？
We're going to Chicago.
我们要去芝加哥。
I'm giving you my age bracket here.
我在这里给你我的年龄段。
The music that has sad associations for me.
这些音乐让我联想到悲伤。
So there's this mood congruency.
所以就有了这种情绪一致性。
If I'm feeling a certain way, I'm going to go deeper into that state and have the music facilitate me.
如果我有某种感觉，我就会更深入地进入那种状态，让音乐帮助我。
Why on earth would we do that?
我们到底为什么要这么做？
Are we all masochistic?
我们都是受虐狂吗？
Do we just want to feel even worse?
我们只是想感觉更糟吗？
This gets at, I think, a critically important point that is not always talked about, which is all emotions are functional when they are experienced in the right proportions, not too intensely and not too long.
我认为，这涉及到一个并不总是被谈论的至关重要的观点，即所有情绪只有在以正确的比例体验时才会发挥作用，而不是太强烈，也不是太长。
So sadness, as an example, is an emotion we experience when we've experienced some loss that we can't rectify right away.
举个例子，悲伤是当我们经历了一些无法立即纠正的损失时所经历的一种情绪。
Something has happened, and you can't fix that.
有些事情已经发生了，你无法解决它。
So you've lost someone, and so what does this emotion do?
那么你失去了一个人，那么这种情绪会带来什么影响呢？
Well, it hijacks the way we are thinking, feeling, and our bodies are responding.
嗯，它劫持了我们的思考、感觉和身体反应的方式。
So it motivates us to introspect, to turn our attention inward, to reflect on this situation, to now try to make sense of it, right?
所以它促使我们去内省，把我们的注意力转向内在，反思这种情况，现在尝试去理解它，对吗？
Something really important in my life has happened.
我生命中真正重要的事情发生了。
I now have to change the way I'm thinking about my life so I can find meaning and move on.
我现在必须改变我思考生活的方式，这样我才能找到意义并继续前进。
My physiology is slowing down, so I can engage in that slow introspection.
我的生理机能正在减慢，所以我可以进行缓慢的内省。
But what's also really interesting about sadness is it's also impacting my facial display, giving a sign to all of the people in my environment to say, "Hey, maybe we should check up on that person, that guy, because he looks like he's on his own in a corner." Right?
但悲伤的真正有趣之处在于，它也会影响我的面部表情，向我周围的所有人发出信号说：“嘿，也许我们应该检查一下那个人，那个家伙，因为他看起来就像独自一人在角落里。”正确的？
So can you detect when someone is sad if you see a sad facial expression?
那么，如果你看到某人悲伤的面部表情，你能察觉到他何时悲伤吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yes.
是的。
When I used to teach the summer courses at Cold Spring Harbor in the North Shore of Long Island, the students would come in from all over the world and-
当我曾经在长岛北岸的冷泉港教授暑期课程时，学生们会从世界各地赶来——
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
I've been there
我去过那里
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
Oh, it's a great place.
哦，那是个好地方。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah, it's awesome.
是的，太棒了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Summer camp for scientists.
科学家夏令营。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
All of their laboratory is all year.
他们所有的实验室都是全年开放的。
And, I eventually was director of a course there, and my co-director and I used to have this debrief at the end of the first day or two where we would talk to one another, and we would go over the list of names and we'd say, and she was remarkably good at this, just extraordinary, like a superpower at saying, "I think everyone's settling in well, but I noticed that so and so might not be adjusted to the jet lag or might not be acclimating so well." It's a very tight-knit group, and the course is quite long for a course like that, but it's important that everybody feel engaged early on.
而且，我最终在那里担任了一门课程的主任，我和我的副主任常常在第一天或两天结束时进行汇报，我们会互相交谈，我们会仔细检查名单，然后我们会说，她非常擅长这一点，非常出色，就像一个超级大国一样说，“我认为每个人都适应得很好，但我注意到某某可能无法适应时差，或者可能无法很好地适应。”这是一个非常紧密的团队，对于这样的课程来说，课程时间相当长，但重要的是每个人都能尽早感受到参与感。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And people have a tendency to dominate in those intellectually competitive environments.
在那些智力竞争的环境中，人们倾向于占据主导地位。
And she could just pinpoint who it was that was feeling a little bit outside the group.
她可以准确地指出是谁感觉有点脱离群体。
We knew how to ameliorate that really quickly.
我们知道如何快速改善这一问题。
And from her I learned a bit of how to recognize the signs, and it was rarely just facial expression.
从她那里我学会了一些如何识别这些迹象，而且很少只是面部表情。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It included that and some other cues that she just seemed to have a unconscious or conscious genius around.
其中包括这一点和其他一些线索，表明她似乎有一个无意识或有意识的天才。
So, for me, I learned some of that from her.
所以，对我来说，我从她那里学到了一些。
I like to think I got better at it, but I think some people are just extraordinarily good at that detection.
我喜欢认为我在这方面做得更好，但我认为有些人在这种检测方面非常擅长。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
And it enhances social interactions.
它增强了社交互动。
And so some people are really good at detecting it, others are really good at displaying it.
所以有些人真的很擅长检测它，其他人真的很擅长展示它。
I'm going to go back to my daughter.
我要回到我女儿身边。
So, if something happens where she feels sad, she exhibits this exaggerated response.
因此，如果发生让她感到悲伤的事情，她就会表现出这种夸张的反应。
Like she'll stick out her lower lip.
就像她会伸出下唇一样。
And even if I'm kind of upset at her, it is amazing the power that that has on me.
即使我对她有点不高兴，这对我的力量也是惊人的。
I have to over-
我必须过度-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Melted.
融化了。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
It is so, so beautifully manipulative.
它是如此的、如此美丽的操控性。
And it's a testament to the power that these displays can have on us.
这证明了这些显示器对我们的影响力。
So I want to go back to one other question you raised in your last comment, and we'll go back to the inner voice and its functionality.
所以我想回到你在上一篇评论中提出的另一个问题，我们将回到内心的声音及其功能。
You raised the question about being shifted by others, other people, and perhaps either just our surroundings, music or spaces.
你提出了关于被他人、其他人，或许只是我们的周围环境、音乐或空间所改变的问题。
Sometimes you don't want to have your emotions be shifted.
有时您不想让自己的情绪发生变化。
And in fact, when other people try to do that, it can elicit what we call reactance.
事实上，当其他人尝试这样做时，可能会引起我们所说的抗拒。
Like you get defensive because I don't want you pushing me in a particular direction.
就像你变得防御性一样，因为我不希望你把我推向一个特定的方向。
I think that's a really important point that we need to be aware of as people living and working in these social environments, where we're often well-intentioned, but sometimes our well-intentioned behaviors can backfire.
我认为这是非常重要的一点，作为生活和工作在这些社会环境中的人们，我们需要意识到这一点，我们常常是出于善意，但有时我们的善意行为可能会适得其反。
And so there's this beautiful research which shows that if you see someone suffering and you volunteer to help them, and they haven't asked you to help them, that can blow up in your face.
这项精彩的研究表明，如果你看到有人受苦，你自愿帮助他们，而他们没有要求你帮助他们，你可能会感到愤怒。
Because what it does is it often communicates to people that you are thinking that they're not capable of handling their own circumstances.
因为它的作用通常是向人们传达这样的信息：你认为他们没有能力处理自己的情况。
And most of us, we're motivated to think that we're capable of handling ourselves.
对于我们大多数人来说，我们有动力认为我们有能力处理好自己。
And so there are still ways you can help people in those circumstances.
因此，仍然有一些方法可以帮助处于这种情况的人们。
It's called providing invisible support, which involves providing support to the person who can genuinely benefit from it, but not shining a spotlight on the fact that that is what you are doing.
这就是所谓的“提供无形支持”，即为真正能从中受益的人提供支持，但不要让人们知道这就是你正在做的事情。
So how might this transpire?
那么这会如何发生呢？
There's some really simple things you could do.
您可以做一些非常简单的事情。
So let's say my wife is really overwhelmed with stuff, and she hasn't asked me for help, but I know she is at her wit's end.
假设我的妻子真的被事情压垮了，她没有向我寻求帮助，但我知道她已经无计可施了。
Work and kids and other kinds of stuff that are on her plate.
工作、孩子和其他各种各样的事情都在她的盘子里。
I can proactively do things to lessen her burden.
我可以主动做一些事情来减轻她的负担。
If it's her turn to pick up the dry cleaning and the groceries, I'm doing that voluntarily.
如果轮到她去取干洗衣服和杂货，我会自愿这样做。
I'm doing that, and I'm not coming home and saying, "Hey, sweetie, look what I did today.
我正在这样做，我不会回家后说：“嘿，亲爱的，看看我今天做了什么。
I did all these things.
我做了所有这些事情。
Can I have a pat on my back?" That's not what we're talking about.
可以拍拍我的背吗？”这不是我们要讨论的。
It's about your group, your lab is working under a deadline, right, to submit a grant application, and they don't have time to eat, and you proactively have pizza delivered to the lab.
这是关于你的团队的，你的实验室正在截止日期前提交资助申请，对吧，他们没有时间吃饭，而你主动将披萨送到实验室。
It's those little things that can help.
正是这些小事可以提供帮助。
Give you two more examples.
再给你举两个例子。
Let's say that someone on your team is really struggling with their ability to translate their work for popular audiences, and that's something they're motivated to do.
假设您团队中的某个人正在为将自己的作品翻译给大众受众而苦苦挣扎，而这正是他们有动力去做的事情。
Really important skill for a scientist to be able to translate what they do for others to consume.
对于科学家来说，能够将他们的研究成果转化为其他人使用是非常重要的技能。
Before you pull them aside and say, "Hey, I noticed that you're stumbling on a few different issues, and here are a couple of things I think you can do better." Before you do that direct intervention, you might have a team meeting where you share out best practices.
在你把它们拉到一边说：“嘿，我注意到你在一些不同的问题上遇到了困难，这里有一些我认为你可以做得更好的事情。”在进行直接干预之前，您可能会召开一次团队会议，分享最佳实践。
"Hey, what are the two things that I've learned that really have benefited my ability to communicate with different audiences?" What you're doing there is you're getting people the resources they can benefit from, but you're not shining a spotlight on the fact that you are directing it to them.
“嘿，我学到的两件事真正有利于我与不同受众沟通的能力吗？”你所做的就是为人们提供他们可以从中受益的资源，但你并没有强调你正在将这些资源引导给他们这一事实。
So it's kind of a backdoor way of helping or of shifting.
所以这是一种帮助或转移的后门方式。
The last tool I'll mention brings it back to sensation.
我要提到的最后一个工具让它回到感觉。
One of the most powerful ways we can shift other people is through touch, tactile sensation.
我们改变他人的最有力的方法之一就是通过触觉。
What's the first thing that you do with a child to soothe them when they are born?
当孩子出生时，你为安抚他们做的第一件事是什么？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hold them.
抓住他们。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Hold them.
抓住他们。
Skin-to-skin contact.
皮肤与皮肤的接触。
I remember both times my kids were born, it was like, I want to get in on that because my wife got first dibs with both of our daughters.
我记得我的孩子出生的两次，我都想参与其中，因为我的妻子对我们两个女儿都有优先权。
I want some of that skin-to-skin contact.
我想要一些肌肤接触。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That doesn't end after we leave the womb.
当我们离开子宫后，这并没有结束。
The comfort that we experience, the release of stress-fighting chemicals that occurs when affectionate embraces are registered, that continues throughout the lifespan.
我们体验到的舒适感，以及在深情拥抱时释放的抗压化学物质，会持续一生。
So if my daughters, who don't particularly like dad to volunteer advice to them on most things nowadays, if I know they're having a bad day, I'll go over and I'll rub their back in a totally un-creepy way.
因此，如果我的女儿们现在不太喜欢爸爸在大多数事情上主动向她们提供建议，如果我知道她们今天过得很糟糕，我就会走过去，以一种完全不令人毛骨悚然的方式抚摸她们的背。
That is an important caveat we should give to everyone who's listening.
这是我们应该向所有听众提出的一个重要警告。
What we're talking about here is affectionate but not creepy or unwanted touch.
我们在这里谈论的是深情的，但不是令人毛骨悚然或不必要的触摸。
It is touch that is mutually desired, and there is some research which shows actually that when it is not desired, you don't get these benefits, and in fact, you get the opposite.
这是相互渴望的接触，有一些研究表明，实际上，当不渴望接触时，你不会得到这些好处，事实上，你会得到相反的好处。
Plus usually lawsuits as well.
另外通常还会提起诉讼。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah, sure.
是的，当然。
I definitely believe that as a primate species, which we are-
我绝对相信，作为灵长类动物，我们——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We are
我们是
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
...
...
old world primates, I think they call it allopathic grooming.
旧世界的灵长类动物，我认为他们称之为对抗疗法美容。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
You'll see these images of these-
你会看到这些图像-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
...
...
monkeys and lots of different species of primates just sitting nearby one another, where one just has its, even just its, I said its hand.
猴子和许多不同种类的灵长类动物坐在一起，其中一个只有它的，甚至只是它的，我说它的手。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Its paw.
它的爪子。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Its hand.
它的手。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Its paw on the one next to it, and they'll just sit like that for long periods of time.
它的爪子放在旁边的一只身上，它们就会像这样坐很长一段时间。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then sometimes they're doing an act of grooming of removing-
然后有时他们会做一些修饰或去除的行为-
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
a parasite.
寄生虫。
This is very important in the primate world, as we know.
正如我们所知，这在灵长类动物世界中非常重要。
But grooming and picking and these kinds of things, you see it in couples, it actually can be kind of endearing.
但是梳洗、采摘和诸如此类的事情，你在情侣中看到，它实际上是一种可爱的东西。
I suppose at its extremes, it's kind of gross, but it's rather endearing to see somebody remove a piece of lint off-
我想在极端情况下，这有点恶心，但看到有人去掉一块线头还是相当可爱的——
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
their partner's jacket or even just touch that doesn't look like it's geared towards any specific outcome.
他们的伴侣的夹克，甚至只是触摸，看起来并不适合任何特定的结果。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
And it doesn't necessarily appear romantic or that it's grooming, so maybe the lint example isn't the best one.
而且它并不一定显得浪漫或修饰，所以也许 lint 的例子不是最好的例子。
But where you just see people that are just like...
但你看到的人就像...
Actually, on the flight down this morning, because I had to fly in early, I was sitting on the aisle seat.
事实上，今天早上下来的航班上，因为我要早飞，所以我坐在靠过道的座位上。
In the middle was a boy, he was probably 14, 15, and his mom was at the window seat.
中间是一个男孩，大概14、15岁，他妈妈坐在靠窗的座位上。
And I went up to use the restroom, came back, and he had fallen asleep on his mom's shoulder.
我上去上厕所，回来时他已经靠在妈妈的肩膀上睡着了。
And I took a look, it was a very endearing moment, and then when we landed, I said, "The ability to sleep anywhere is a superpower." And he said, "I learned it from my dad." And it was a moment where I just thought it was just a very pleasant thing to see them-
我看了一眼，那是一个非常可爱的时刻，然后当我们着陆时，我说，“在任何地方睡觉的能力都是一种超能力。”他说：“这是我从我爸爸那里学来的。”那一刻我觉得见到他们是一件非常愉快的事情——
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in this touch on the plane, he clearly felt comfortable enough to do that.
在飞机上的这种接触，他显然感到足够舒服。
I remember thinking, like, "Yeah, humans, we're a lot like the other primates."
我记得我当时想，“是的，人类，我们很像其他灵长类动物。”
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
There's a beauty to it, and it is a tool.
它有一种美感，而且它是一种工具。
It is one kind of shifter that has to be obviously used in the appropriate context.
它是一种必须在适当的环境中使用的变速杆。
All of our sensory modalities are powerful tools for, I would argue, relatively effortlessly shifting our emotions.
我认为，我们所有的感官方式都是强大的工具，可以相对轻松地改变我们的情绪。
And I think that's really important because people often think that regulating our emotions is hard work, to the extent that they believe you can regulate your emotions at all.
我认为这非常重要，因为人们常常认为调节我们的情绪是一项艰苦的工作，以至于他们相信您完全可以调节自己的情绪。
We'll talk about that a little bit too, I'm sure.
我相信我们也会稍微讨论一下这个问题。
But self-control, emotion regulation, like let me roll up my sleeves and really get in there, yes, it can at times be extraordinarily difficult to manage our emotions, and some of the tools that we have are effortful.
但是自我控制，情绪调节，就像让我卷起袖子真正投入其中，是的，有时管理我们的情绪会非常困难，而我们拥有的一些工具是费力的。
One example would be expressive writing.
一个例子是表达性写作。
This wonderful tool for working through problematic experiences.
这是解决问题经历的绝佳工具。
You sit down, just let yourself go for 15 to 20 minutes a day for one to three days.
你坐下来，每天让自己放松 15 到 20 分钟，持续一到三天。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This is the Pennebaker.
这是彭尼贝克。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
This is the Pennebaker writing effect.
这就是彭尼贝克书写效果。
This is just a remarkably wonderful, side effect-free, you could argue, intervention for helping you deal with curveballs that life throws at you.
你可能会说，这只是一种非常美妙的、无副作用的干预措施，可以帮助你应对生活中遇到的难题。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You have vast amounts of data supporting the practice.
您有大量数据支持这种做法。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Vast amounts of data.
海量数据。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Pennebaker really deserves, in my opinion, if not the psychology equivalent of a Nobel Prize, I don't know what that is, but deserves real deep praise for developing that method because it's essentially zero cost, takes a little bit of time, and there's just, what?
在我看来，彭尼贝克确实值得，即使不是相当于诺贝尔奖的心理学奖，我不知道那是什么，但值得对开发这种方法给予真正的高度赞扬，因为它基本上是零成本，需要一点时间，而且只是，什么？
Hundreds of studies now?
现在有数百个研究？
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Hundreds of studies.
数百项研究。
That's right.
这是正确的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Showing that these 10 to 15-minute cathartic writing, just free associative writing, as I understand, with a writing utensil-
表明这些10到15分钟的宣泄写作，据我所知，只是自由联想写作，带有书写工具-
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Usually, yeah
通常，是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
is probably better.
可能更好。
We did an episode where I talked about this and received a note from him and was grateful that we didn't get anything badly wrong.
我们拍了一集，我谈到了这个问题，并收到了他的便条，很庆幸我们没有犯任何严重的错误。
In fact, he was pleased with it.
事实上，他对此很满意。
I think that he deserves a lot of credit.
我认为他值得很多赞扬。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Well, we-
好吧，我们-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
A powerful tool for self-healing
强大的自我修复工具
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
We actually just restarted a prestigious speaker series at Michigan, the Katz Newcomb Speaker Series, which is designed to honor luminaries in the field, and we actually kicked it off with Jamie coming to speak about his extraordinary work.
实际上，我们刚刚在密歇根州重新启动了一个著名的演讲者系列，即卡茨·纽科姆演讲者系列，该系列旨在纪念该领域的杰出人物，实际上，我们是由杰米来谈论他非凡的工作来拉开序幕的。
Because this is really a gift, I think, not just to the field, but humanity.
因为我认为这确实是一份礼物，不仅是对这个领域的礼物，也是对人类的礼物。
And the but though here is that it's an effortful tool.
但尽管如此，它是一个费力的工具。
It takes 15 minutes to use.
使用时间为15分钟。
There is nothing wrong with that.
这并没有什么问题。
Lots of things that we do in life are effortful.
生活中我们做的很多事情都是需要付出努力的。
But we also know that we don't like exerting effort as a species.
但我们也知道，作为一个物种，我们不喜欢付出努力。
We like to conserve our resources as much as possible.
我们希望尽可能地节约我们的资源。
So if there are easy things you could do as well, it's good to know about what those are.
因此，如果您也可以做一些简单的事情，那么最好了解一下这些事情是什么。
And these sensory shifters, music, looking at images, right?
还有这些感官转变、音乐、观看图像，对吧？
These are modality, taste, touch.
这些是情态、品味、触觉。
These are ways of pushing your emotions around pretty effectively for short periods of time, that in a pinch, like when your daughter's not in a great mood, or when you want to get pumped up before an important event, can be quite useful.
这些方法可以在短时间内非常有效地调节你的情绪，在紧要关头，比如当你女儿心情不好时，或者当你想在重要事件之前兴奋起来时，这些方法可能非常有用。
And we often just go through our lives not recognizing how we can strategically harness them.
我们常常在一生中没有认识到如何战略性地利用它们。
So that's my plug for sensory shifters.
这就是我的感官转换插头。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, AG1.
我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商 AG1。
AG1 is a vitamin mineral probiotic drink that includes prebiotics and adaptogens.
AG1 是一种维生素矿物质益生菌饮料，含有益生元和适应原。
I've been drinking AG1 since 2012, and I started doing it at a time when my budget was really limited.
我从 2012 年开始喝 AG1，当时我的预算非常有限。
In fact, I only had enough money to purchase one supplement, and I'm so glad that I made that supplement AG1.
事实上，我的钱只够购买一种补充剂，我很高兴我制作了这款补充剂 AG1。
The reason for that is even though I strive to eat whole foods and unprocessed foods, it's very difficult to get enough vitamins and minerals, micronutrients, and adaptogens from diet alone in order to make sure that I'm at my best, meaning have enough energy for all the activities I participate in from morning until night, sleeping well at night, and keeping my immune system strong.
原因是，尽管我努力吃天然食品和未加工食品，但仅从饮食中获取足够的维生素和矿物质、微量营养素和适应原是非常困难的，以确保我处于最佳状态，这意味着我有足够的能量来进行从早到晚参加的所有活动，晚上睡得好，并保持我的免疫系统强大。
When I take AG1 daily, I find that all aspects of my health, my physical health, my mental health, my performance, recovery from exercise, all of those improve.
当我每天服用 AG1 时，我发现我的健康的各个方面，我的身体健康，我的心理健康，我的表现，运动恢复，所有这些都得到改善。
And I know that because I've had lapses when I didn't take my AG1, and I certainly felt the difference.
我知道这一点，因为当我没有带上 AG1 时，我曾犯过错误，而且我确实感受到了差异。
I also noticed, and this makes perfect sense given the relationship between the gut microbiome and the brain, that when I regularly take AG1, that I have more mental clarity and more mental energy.
我还注意到，考虑到肠道微生物组和大脑之间的关系，当我定期服用 AG1 时，我的思维更加清晰，精力更加充沛，这是完全有道理的。
If you'd like to try AG1, you can go to drinkag1.com/huberman to claim a special offer.
如果您想尝试 AG1，可以访问 Drinkag1.com/huberman 申请特别优惠。
For this month only, November 2024, AG1 is giving away a free one-month supply of omega-3 fatty acids from fish oil in addition to their usual welcome kit of five free travel packs and a year's supply of vitamin D3 K2.
仅在 2024 年 11 月这个月，AG1 除了提供通常的五个免费旅行包和一年的维生素 D3 K2 的欢迎套件外，还免费赠送一个月的鱼油 omega-3 脂肪酸。
As I've discussed many times before on this podcast, omega-3 fatty acids are critical for brain health, mood, cognition, and more.
正如我之前在此播客中多次讨论过的那样，omega-3 脂肪酸对于大脑健康、情绪、认知等至关重要。
Again, go to drinkag1.com/huberman to claim this special offer.
请再次访问 Drinkag1.com/huberman 领取此特别优惠。
Today's episode is also brought to us by Joovv.
今天的节目也是Joovv给我们带来的。
Joovv makes medical-grade red light therapy devices.
Joovv 生产医疗级红光治疗设备。
Now, if there's one thing that I've consistently emphasized on this podcast, is the incredible impact that light can have on our biology.
现在，如果我在这个播客中一直强调一件事，那就是光对我们的生物学产生的令人难以置信的影响。
Now, in addition to sunlight, red light and near-infrared light have been shown to have positive effects on improving numerous aspects of cellular and organ health, including faster muscle recovery, improved skin health and wound healing, improvements in acne, reduced pain and inflammation, improved mitochondrial function, and even improving vision itself.
现在，除了阳光之外，红光和近红外光已被证明对改善细胞和器官健康的许多方面具有积极作用，包括更快的肌肉恢复、改善皮肤健康和伤口愈合、改善痤疮、减少疼痛和炎症、改善线粒体功能，甚至改善视力本身。
Now, what sets Joovv lights apart, and why they're my preferred red light therapy devices, is that they use clinically proven wavelengths, meaning they use specific wavelengths of red light and near-infrared light in combination to trigger the optimal cellular adaptations.
现在，Joovv 灯的与众不同之处以及它们成为我首选红光治疗设备的原因在于它们使用经过临床验证的波长，这意味着它们结合使用特定波长的红光和近红外光来触发最佳的细胞适应。
Personally, I use the Joovv whole body panel about three to four times a week, and I use the Joovv handheld light both at home and when I travel.
就我个人而言，我每周大约使用 Joovv 全身面板三到四次，在家和旅行时我都会使用 Joovv 手持灯。
If you'd like to try Joovv, you can go to Joovv, spelled J-O-O-V-V, .com/huberman.
如果您想尝试 Joovv，可以访问 Joovv，拼写为 J-O-O-V-V，.com/huberman。
Joovv is offering Black Friday discounts of up to $1,300 now through December 2nd, 2024.
Joovv 即日起至 2024 年 12 月 2 日提供黑色星期五折扣，最高可达 1,300 美元。
Again, that's Joovv, J-O-O-V-V, .com/huberman to get up to $1,300 off select Joovv products.
同样，Joovv、J-O-O-V-V、.com/huberman 精选 Joovv 产品可享受高达 1,300 美元的折扣。
Let's go back to just close the loop on the inner voice and the benefits that it provides.
让我们回到内在声音的闭环及其带来的好处。
So we talked about two.
所以我们讨论了两个。
Verbal working memory, keeping verbal information active for short periods of time.
言语工作记忆，使言语信息在短时间内保持活跃。
And we talked about simulating and planning things, like going over what you're going to say before an interview or an important presentation.
我们讨论了模拟和计划事情，比如在采访或重要演讲之前回顾一下你要说的话。
Let's turn to self-control and motivation.
让我们转向自我控制和动机。
So you exercise, because you've talked about exercising.
所以你锻炼，因为你谈到了锻炼。
Yeah.
是的。
I try to exercise six days a week, although some are short workouts, some are longer.
我尝试每周锻炼六天，尽管有些锻炼时间较短，有些则较长。
Yeah.
是的。
You ever talk to yourself when you exercise?
运动时你会自言自语吗？
Oh, all the time.
哦，一直以来。
So let's hear it.
那么让我们听听吧。
The world wants to know, Andrew, what do you say to yourself when you exercise?
全世界都想知道，安德鲁，你在锻炼时会对自己说什么？
Depends on how well-rested I am, how motivated I am.
取决于我休息得如何，我的动力如何。
I'll give two examples at the opposite poles of the motivational scale.
我将举两个动机尺度相反的例子。
I was traveling two weeks ago, and I was doing some exercises for the...
两周前我去旅行了，我正在做一些练习......
There's a muscle on the back of the shoulder, the rear deltoid.
肩膀后面有一块肌肉，即后三角肌。
It's I don't think anyone's favorite muscle to train, but it's a very important one for- That's when you do this one You're right.
我不认为这是任何人最喜欢训练的肌肉，但它是非常重要的一块肌肉——那就是当你做这块肌肉时，你是对的。
For shoulder posture and stability, and you got to train that muscle group because otherwise people tend to get this inward rotating, like thumbs pointing toward belly button- Yeah ...
为了肩膀的姿势和稳定性，你必须训练该肌肉群，因为否则人们往往会向内旋转，就像拇指指向肚脐一样 - 是的......
and shoulders rolling forward thing.
和肩膀向前滚动的事情。
And there are a number of reasons why it's important.
它的重要性有很多原因。
Sure.
当然。
So you got to do the rear delt thing, and I sat down to do the first work set after a couple warm-ups, and I remember thinking, like, I love training.
所以你必须做三角肌后束的事情，在几次热身之后我坐下来做第一组训练，我记得我当时想，就像，我喜欢训练。
I love training.
我喜欢训练。
I have since I started training when I was 16.
我从16岁开始训练就开始了。
And I thought to myself, for some reason, I don't want to do this this morning.
我心想，出于某种原因，我今天早上不想这样做。
And then I thought, okay, David Goggins would probably start swearing at himself in his head.
然后我想，好吧，大卫·戈金斯可能会开始在心里咒骂自己。
So I started that a little bit, and that didn't really work for me.
所以我开始了一点点，但这对我来说并没有真正起作用。
Sorry, David.
对不起，大卫。
And then I thought, I'm going to go through every possible inner voice I can think of.
然后我想，我要仔细检查我能想到的每一种可能的内心声音。
So I heard Jocko Willink's voice, I'm friends with Jocko, and heard him just saying like, "Yeah, whatever, you're just weak." Or just do it anyway kind of mentality.
所以我听到了乔科·威林克的声音，我是乔科的朋友，听到他只是说，“是的，无论如何，你只是软弱。”或者只是抱着无论如何都要去做的心态。
And I just started cycling through all of them, and I made a deal with myself that when I ran out of voices to use, that's when I would stop the set.
我刚刚开始循环播放所有这些，我和自己做了一个交易，当我用完声音时，我就会停止播放。
And I probably tripled the number of repetitions that I would normally get with that weight.
我可能将这个重量的重复次数增加了三倍。
Amazing.
惊人的。
So it was like one part motivation, one part distraction, one part frustration, and I was just pulling from the catalog of possible voices of kind of coach-like voices.
所以这就像一半是动力，一半是分心，一半是挫败感，我只是从可能的教练式声音目录中提取出来。
Yeah.
是的。
And it worked out pretty well.
效果非常好。
Yeah.
是的。
And then at the other extreme, I can recall many times, because I put effort into it, where I'm well-rested, I'm hydrated, get appropriate amounts of caffeine in my system, which I love, and I sit down to train, and I absolutely love to train under those conditions.
然后在另一个极端，我可以回忆很多次，因为我付出了努力，在那里我得到了充分的休息，我补充了水分，在我的系统中摄入了适量的咖啡因，这是我喜欢的，我坐下来训练，我绝对喜欢在这些条件下训练。
The sun is shining, music's playing, and I just remember, this was during a set, this was a leg day, always the hardest day, set of heavy hack squats, and just thinking, I love this.
阳光明媚，音乐响起，我只记得，这是在训练期间，这是腿部日，总是最艰难的一天，一组重型哈克深蹲，我只是想，我喜欢这个。
But I have this inner voice where every time I start a repetition, I go through a thing where I brace my midsection, so I don't hurt my back, and I always look directly at the ceiling, and I think about my bulldog, Costello.
但我有一种内心的声音，每次我开始重复时，我都会经历一个支撑我的腹部的事情，这样我就不会伤到我的背部，我总是直视天花板，我会想到我的斗牛犬，科斯特洛。
Hmm.
唔。
And I think, I'm going to do this one for you.
我想，我会为你做这件事。
I'm going to do this one for you.
我将为你做这件事。
And I know at those moments, my inner voice goes to he would probably just be sitting there like, "Why are you working this hard?" Bulldogs don't like to work.
我知道在那些时刻，我内心的声音会告诉他，他可能只是坐在那里，“你为什么这么努力工作？”斗牛犬不喜欢工作。
So I'm not really in a complete sentence generation inner voice kind of thing.
所以我并不是真的在用一个完整的句子生成内心的声音之类的事情。
But you have a very rich inner world, right?
但你的内心世界很丰富，对吧？
Your verbal working memory stream is filled with words when you are working out.
当您锻炼时，您的言语工作记忆流中充满了单词。
Yeah, and I'll tell you this.
是的，我会告诉你这一点。
I was going to ask you this later in the episode, but Maybe it's relevant now.
我本来想在本集稍后问你这个问题，但也许现在就有意义了。
I think it is.
我认为是的。
When I was a kid, after my parents would tuck me in to go to sleep at night, I used to lie in bed and rehearse voices that I had heard throughout the day.
当我还是个孩子的时候，晚上父母给我盖被子睡觉后，我常常躺在床上排练白天听到的声音。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I felt like I could hear them in their tone of voice, and then I'd make them say different things just for my own entertainment.
我觉得我能听到他们的语气，然后我会让他们说不同的话只是为了我自己的娱乐。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So I could have them say whatever I wanted, but in a particular voice.
所以我可以让他们说我想说的话，但用特定的声音。
And my friends sometimes tease me that I'll give people voices.
我的朋友有时会取笑我说我会给人们发声。
I'll give someone a Marge Simpson voice or something.
我会给某人一个玛吉·辛普森的声音或者什么的。
They're like, "She doesn't sound like that at all."
他们会说，“她听起来根本不像那样。”
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But I'll just sort of create a narrative in my mind.
但我会在脑海中编造一个故事。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So yeah, a lot of chatter in there, a lot of voices.
是的，那里有很多闲聊，很多声音。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But not super organized.
但不是超级有组织。
It's not like I'm constructing a play.
我又不是在编排剧本。
It feels like things geyser up.
感觉事情就像间歇泉一样。
I toy with them maybe a little.
我可能会玩弄它们。
But it's kind of a mishmash.
但这有点大杂烩。
It's not super regimented.
这不是超级严格的。
These aren't complete sentences.
这些不是完整的句子。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Well, one of the reasons why the Pennebaker effect is believed to be so useful is because it imposes a structure on the stream going through our head, which is oftentimes not organized.
彭尼贝克效应被认为如此有用的原因之一是，它给流过我们大脑的信息流强加了一种结构，而这种结构通常是没有组织的。
And when you find that inner verbal stream going in the negative direction, so negative self-talk, so the chatter, right?
当你发现内心的言语流向消极方向发展时，消极的自言自语，喋喋不休，对吗？
"You're an idiot, such an idiot," or you're looping over a problem without making any progress.
“你是个白痴，真是个白痴”，或者你在一个问题上循环思考却没有取得任何进展。
Putting those words in, actually taking that inner stream and making a story out of it, is essentially what the Pennebaker writing cues you to do.
把这些话放进去，实际上吸收内心的想法并从中编出一个故事，本质上就是彭尼贝克的写作提示你要做的事情。
Because we are taught when we write, we write in sentences.
因为我们在写作时就被教导，我们用句子来写。
There's a structure to our writing that we impose on our thinking.
我们的写作有一种结构，是我们强加给我们的思考的。
Up here in our minds, it's a free-for-all.
在我们看来，这是一场混战。
It can go in all sorts of directions, and that chaos is in part what can make chatter so aversive.
它可以朝各个方向发展，而这种混乱是导致喋喋不休的部分原因。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm so glad you're bringing this up.
我很高兴你提出这个问题。
Our very first guest ever on this podcast was a guy named Karl Deisseroth.
我们在这个播客上的第一位嘉宾是一个名叫 Karl Deisseroth 的人。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Bioengineer.
生物工程师。
He's a practicing psychiatrist.
他是一名执业精神科医生。
He's one of the luminaries of neuroscience.
他是神经科学领域的杰出人物之一。
He developed these light-sensitive channels to be able to manipulate neurons in animal models, but also now in human clinical work as well.
他开发了这些光敏通道，以便能够操纵动物模型中的神经元，现在也用于人类临床工作中。
And one thing that he shared was that after he puts his kids to sleep, I think now they're grown, but in the evening, he'll deliberately sit still, completely bodily still, close his eyes, and force himself to think in complete sentences-
他分享的一件事是，当他让孩子们入睡后，我想现在他们已经长大了，但到了晚上，他会故意坐着不动，完全身体静止，闭上眼睛，强迫自己思考完整的句子——
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Mm
毫米
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
for maybe an hour or so, maybe more.
可能一个小时左右，也许更长。
And I thought to myself, "Wow, that's a very disciplined practice." It also speaks to what you're saying, which is that typically thinking in complete sentences is not the default-
我心想：“哇，这是一种非常有纪律的做法。”它也说明了你所说的，即通常用完整的句子思考并不是默认的-
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
That's right
没错
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
of the mind.
的心灵。
So I don't know what his specific reason for doing that is.
所以我不知道他这样做的具体原因是什么。
He shared a few of them on that podcast episode, but I'm sure there are others as well.
他在播客节目中分享了其中一些内容，但我确信还有其他内容。
But I tried it.
但我尝试过。
It's very difficult, especially with eyes closed, to not drift into multiple narratives, kind of the stream sort of split into tributaries, and then-
这是非常困难的，尤其是在闭上眼睛的情况下，不陷入多重叙述，有点像溪流分成支流，然后——
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Mm
毫米
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
you dissolve into-
你溶入——
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
sleep or kind of-
睡觉或者某种——
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
A meditation experience.
一次冥想体验。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, an almost dreamlike state where you're in these liminal states.
是的，这是一种近乎梦幻的状态，你处于这些阈限状态。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Well, that's, I think, where the writing provides a tool to structure your thinking.
嗯，我认为，这就是写作提供了一个构建你的思维的工具。
Talking has a similar modality.
谈话也有类似的情态。
So when we talk to people, there is a structure to the way we converse where we're not, if I were to just talk to you the way I pinball in my mind, you wouldn't be able to understand me, and you would think I'm out of my bleeping mind, right?
因此，当我们与人交谈时，我们的交谈方式有一个结构，而我们不存在的地方，如果我只是按照我在脑海中弹球的方式与你交谈，你将无法理解我，并且你会认为我失去了理智，对吗？
Because I would be unable to have a meaningful conversation with you.
因为我无法与你进行有意义的对话。
So there's some research which shows that if you get people to recall a chatter-provoking experience, so think about something negative that's happened to you, and then you randomly assign them to just think about it and work it through in their mind versus write about it, so i.e. a Pennebaker writing-like condition, or talk about it to someone else.
有一些研究表明，如果你让人们回忆起一个令人喋喋不休的经历，那么想想发生在你身上的一些消极的事情，然后你随机分配他们只是思考并在脑海中解决它，而不是写下来，即彭尼贝克写作类似的情况，或与其他人谈论它。
The talking and the writing both do better in terms of how they feel when they're done as compared to the just thinking, because there's no guardrails to the way we think.
与单纯的思考相比，谈话和写作在完成时的感受方面都做得更好，因为我们的思考方式没有任何障碍。
That we are taught, I should add-
我们被教导，我应该补充-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
...
...
because we're going to give people guardrails later in this episode.
因为我们将在本集中稍后为人们提供护栏。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So in addition to using the Pennebaker approach, and by the way, we'll provide a link to some resources for the Pennebaker journaling because there's some free online resources that-
因此，除了使用 Pennebaker 方法之外，顺便说一下，我们还将提供一些 Pennebaker 日记资源的链接，因为有一些免费的在线资源：
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I think are really powerful for people to use if they want to use that as a template for cathartic reasons or just get one's mind around a problem or something I'm very familiar with, waking up and just feeling like everything is kind of, not a storm in there, but a bit too disorganized to get my head right.
我认为，如果人们想将其用作宣泄原因的模板，或者只是集中精力思考一个问题或我非常熟悉的事情，那么当人们醒来时，感觉一切都很好，不是一场风暴，而是有点太杂乱，无法理清思路，这对于人们来说真的很强大。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And so I need things to get my head right.
所以我需要一些东西来让我的头脑恢复正常。
Sometimes it's music, sometimes it's writing.
有时是音乐，有时是写作。
It sounds like journaling is just a really useful practice overall.
总体而言，听起来写日记是一种非常有用的做法。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
It's a useful practice, and it's an underutilized practice.
这是一种有用的做法，也是一种未被充分利用的做法。
So we did two pretty large studies during COVID to look at how are people regulating their emotions on a daily basis to deal with the anxiety surrounding COVID.
因此，我们在新冠肺炎期间做了两项相当大的研究，看看人们如何每天调节自己的情绪来应对围绕新冠病毒的焦虑。
And we gave them a series of tools that they could check off if they used the tools that day.
我们给了他们一系列工具，他们可以检查当天是否使用了这些工具。
And we learned a couple of really interesting things.
我们学到了一些非常有趣的事情。
Number one, there are no one size fits all solutions for folks.
第一，没有一种解决方案适合人们的所有需求。
So remarkable variability characterized the tools that worked for person A versus person B.
适用于 A 人和 B 人的工具具有显着的差异性。
Number two, it was seldom the case that people used one tool.
第二，人们很少使用一种工具。
In general, people used on average three or four tools each day, which I think is another really important take home because I am often asked as, for example, what is my favorite tool for managing emotions?
一般来说，人们平均每天使用三到四种工具，我认为这是另一个非常重要的收获，因为我经常被问到，例如，我最喜欢的管理情绪的工具是什么？
I don't have a favorite tool because I'm typically using multiple tools, and most people are doing exactly the same.
我没有最喜欢的工具，因为我通常使用多种工具，而大多数人都在做完全相同的事情。
So it's kind of like what we're learning about emotion regulation is in some ways it's similar to physical exercise.
所以这有点像我们正在学习的情绪调节在某些方面类似于体育锻炼。
You're not only going to work out your rear deltoids with the same exercise every day.
您不仅可以每天通过相同的练习来锻炼三角肌后束。
You would have funky-looking shoulders if you did, right?
如果你这样做的话，你的肩膀会看起来很时髦，对吗？
And you'd probably be pretty weak in lots of other parts of your body.
而且你身体的许多其他部位可能会非常虚弱。
You're doing multiple things, and the multiple things that you do to exercise, I'm guessing, are different from the multiple things that I do to exercise Yet we may well be equally fit.
你正在做多种事情，我猜你为锻炼而做的多种事情与我为锻炼而做的多种事情是不同的，但我们很可能同样适合。
Well, you may be a little bit more fit than me, but-
好吧，你可能比我更健康一些，但是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I doubt it
我对此表示怀疑
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
...
...
you get the drift.
你明白了。
So there's this beautiful variability to how we manage our inner worlds.
因此，我们管理内心世界的方式存在着美妙的变化。
To bring it back to expressive writing, we found that expressive writing, when people used it, was really, really useful.
回到表达性写作，我们发现当人们使用表达性写作时，它真的非常非常有用。
It moved the needle on their COVID anxiety.
它缓解了他们对新冠病毒的焦虑。
But it was an underutilized tool.
但它是一个未被充分利用的工具。
People didn't do it very much, and I think that's in part because it is somewhat effortful.
人们做得并不多，我认为这部分是因为它有点费力。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I want to ask another question about movement that falls on the other end of the spectrum to what we're talking about now, which is structuring one's thoughts in the form of writing in order to parse an idea or work through an emotional state.
我想问另一个关于运动的问题，它与我们现在讨论的运动相反，即以写作的形式构建一个人的思想，以便通过一种情感状态来解析一个想法或工作。
In 2015, by the way, I use these anecdotes not because I want to focus on me, but just as generalizable anecdotes.
顺便说一句，在2015年，我使用这些轶事不是因为我想关注我自己，而是作为普遍的轶事。
Okay?
好的？
The specifics here don't matter, but I think probably most people are familiar with having an important decision where they have to weigh path A versus path B.
这里的细节并不重要，但我想大多数人可能都熟悉做出一个重要的决定，他们必须权衡路径 A 和路径 B。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I was in that place.
我就在那个地方。
I was actually choosing between a job at one institution and another institution, each of which had tremendous advantages.
我实际上是在一个机构和另一个机构之间进行选择，每个机构都有巨大的优势。
Neither had any striking disadvantages, but it was a really hard decision, and those close to me at that time will tell you that it was just brutal.
两者都没有任何显着的缺点，但这是一个非常艰难的决定，当时与我关系密切的人会告诉你，这只是残酷的。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Been there.
去过那里。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
I made everybody around me suffer tremendously to the point where people were just like, "Flip a coin." Now, I'm not an indecisive person.
我让我周围的每个人都遭受了巨大的痛苦，以至于人们就像“抛硬币”一样。现在，我不是一个优柔寡断的人。
I think it's one of these things where big decisions, I think, deserve time and attention, and it was a time constraint thing.
我认为这是重大决策值得投入时间和关注的事情之一，而且这是一个时间限制的事情。
So I was poring over this, pro/cons list.
所以我仔细研究了这个优点/缺点列表。
I was watching YouTube videos, trying to figure out best ways for decision-making.
我正在观看 YouTube 视频，试图找出最佳的决策方法。
I was trying to— I actually-
我试图——我实际上——
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Isn't it amazing, by the way, when we're in those situations?
顺便说一句，当我们处于这种情况时，这不是很神奇吗？
And I know exactly what you're talking about because I was pretty sure I was in exactly the same position.
我确切地知道你在说什么，因为我很确定我处于完全相同的位置。
The things you do in those circumstances to get some insight are wacky.
在这种情况下你为了获得一些洞察力而做的事情是很古怪的。
I'm sure you were Googling things that you had no business Googling, these kinds of decision trees and-
我确信你正在谷歌搜索一些你没有必要谷歌搜索的东西，这些决策树和-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, yeah
哦，是的
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
...
...
right?
对吗？
It's wild.
它很狂野。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It turns out there are mathematical models.
事实证明是有数学模型的。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Actually, my colleague at NYU, Tony Movshon, I forget the name of the model, but there's a model about how many towns you should evaluate.
事实上，我在纽约大学的同事托尼·莫夫森（Tony Movshon），我忘记了模型的名称，但是有一个关于应该评估多少个城镇的模型。
It's an old example of what towns you should evaluate in terms of where to start a business.
这是一个关于在哪里创业时应该评估哪些城镇的古老例子。
Is it two?
是两个吗？
Is it three?
是三个吗？
And there's an-
还有一个-
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
optimal strategy there.
那里有最优策略。
In any event, most of it wasn't helping, and I do believe that at some point, you don't want too many committee members because it just gets-
无论如何，其中大部分都没有帮助，而且我确实相信，在某些时候，你不需要太多的委员会成员，因为它只会——
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Absolutely
绝对
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
confusing.
令人困惑。
So the two best pieces of information came from the following practices.
因此，两个最好的信息来自以下实践。
One was a colleague said, "Forget all the superficial pro/con stuff." And I actually think this has proved to be very useful in all domains of life for me.
其中一位同事说：“忘记所有肤浅的赞成/反对的东西。”事实上，我认为这对我生活的各个领域都非常有用。
He said, "Take yourself through a typical weekday in one place versus the other.
他说：“让自己在一个地方与另一个地方度过一个典型的工作日。
Wake up, where are you going to go?
醒醒吧，你要去哪里？
How are you going to travel?
你打算怎样去旅行？
Take yourself through the practicals of the day, because everything else falls away once you're at a place or you're in a type of relationship.
让自己经历一天中的实际情况，因为一旦你到达某个地方或处于某种关系中，其他一切都会消失。
Take yourself through a given day."
让自己度过特定的一天。”
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
"Don't think about the relationship or the institution that you're going to work for, the school you're going to go to.
“不要考虑你将要工作的关系或机构，你将要就读的学校。
That's important, but take yourself through the entire day." So I did that, and then he said, "Also do it on a weekend," because-
这很重要，但要让自己度过一整天。”所以我就这样做了，然后他说，“周末也这样做，”因为-
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
well, in our profession, we tend to work all the time.
嗯，在我们的职业中，我们倾向于一直工作。
But occasionally, you take a day off, and so that was very useful.
但偶尔，你会休息一天，所以这非常有用。
The other thing that was very useful, which was completely surprising to me, was at that time, I was training in a boxing gym, and I was doing some speed bag work and decent at it.
另一件非常有用的事情，这让我完全惊讶，当时我正在拳击馆训练，我正在做一些速度袋训练，并且做得不错。
You know, you get into a rhythm, and what's so great about speed bag work is that you get into a rhythm where you forget that you're trying to do the movement in a particular way.
你知道，你会进入一种节奏，而速度袋训练的伟大之处在于，当你进入一种节奏时，你会忘记你正在尝试以特定的方式进行运动。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
These central pattern generators, as we call them in neuroscience, take over, and you're just turning your hands over in a way, and every once in a while, you can think, "Okay, you need to put a little more hip swivel into this or a little more head movement and practice my slips or something." But it's largely unconscious-
这些中央模式生成器，正如我们在神经科学中所说的那样，接管了一切，你只需以某种方式翻转你的手，每隔一段时间，你就会想，“好吧，你需要在这个过程中多做一点臀部旋转，或者多做一点头部运动，练习我的滑步什么的。” But it's largely unconscious-
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
after a certain point.
在某一点之后。
And I was doing that, and all of a sudden, boom, a thought just geysered to the surface, and I made my decision.
我正在这样做，突然之间，一个想法浮出水面，我做出了决定。
And that was my final decision.
这是我的最终决定。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I never went back from that decision.
我从未放弃这个决定。
And so it was in the act of not trying to parse things-
所以它是在不尝试解析事物的行为中-
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
through words, that words sprung up from my, whatever, unconscious, somewhere in my brain, cortical or subcortical, I don't know, and it was like, "That's it." And I was overwhelmed by that.
通过言语，这些言语从我的大脑中的某个地方（不管是无意识的，皮质的还是皮质下的，我不知道）中涌现出来，就像是，“就是这样。” And I was overwhelmed by that.
And again, I don't share all that because I think it's speed bags or it's the example I gave before that's going to solve it for everybody, but that these answers to hard problems seem to come from very diametrically opposed approaches.
再说一次，我不分享所有这些，因为我认为这是速度包，或者是我之前给出的例子，它将为每个人解决这个问题，但这些难题的答案似乎来自于非常截然相反的方法。
Verbal construction of complete sentences with paper or deliberately like Deisseroth does, and then also not trying to get an answer at all.
用纸或故意像 Deisseroth 那样用语言构建完整的句子，然后根本不试图得到答案。
Boom, the answer shows up.
Boom, the answer shows up.
What in the world is that?
那到底是什么？
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
So it speaks to this idea that, first of all, there are no one size fits all solutions to addressing many of the big kinds of problems and decisions we have to face.
因此，它说明了这样一个想法：首先，没有一种适合所有情况的解决方案来解决我们必须面对的许多重大问题和决策。
So there are different modalities to self-discovery and insight, and yes, you can think very rationally and work it through and write about it and have conversations with other people.
因此，自我发现和洞察力有不同的方式，是的，你可以非常理性地思考、解决它、写下来并与其他人对话。
And then you can also allow your unconscious problem-solving machinery to do its thing.
然后你也可以让无意识的问题解决机制发挥作用。
We don't understand completely how this works, but we do know that your experience is not infrequent.
我们并不完全了解这是如何运作的，但我们确实知道您的经历并不少见。
Many people report having moments of insight when they are not otherwise engaged, and one line of thinking is that we are doing problem-solving behind the scenes that we're not aware of, and the solutions are bubbling up to awareness.
许多人表示，当他们没有其他事情参与时，就会有顿悟的时刻，一种想法是，我们正在幕后解决我们没有意识到的问题，并且解决方案正在浮现到意识中。
So I actually, this may be the wrong usage of terms, but I weaponize this process for myself.
所以实际上，这可能是错误的术语用法，但我为自己武器化了这个过程。
So before I exercise, before I get on the treadmill or row or do whatever I'm going to do, I will load up ...
因此，在我锻炼之前，在我上跑步机或划船或做任何我要做的事情之前，我会加载......
the particular issue that I'm trying to find a solution for.
我正在努力寻找解决方案的特定问题。
Sometimes it's how to word a paragraph.
有时，问题在于如何措辞段落。
It might be if I'm working on a book, how to find the right kind of story.
如果我正在写一本书，这可能是如何找到合适的故事类型。
If it's an interpersonal issue that I've got to smooth over, I load that up, and then I just get on the device.
如果这是我必须解决的人际问题，我会将其加载，然后就可以使用设备了。
It's usually an aerobic exercise that I'm doing.
我通常做的有氧运动。
And I don't really think about it in any fixed way, but inevitably, the ideas, the potential solutions bubble up into awareness.
我并没有真正以任何固定的方式思考它，但不可避免的是，这些想法和潜在的解决方案会浮现在人们的意识中。
That is a real valuable tool that I possess that I think allows me to have success in various areas of my life.
这是我拥有的一个真正有价值的工具，我认为它可以让我在生活的各个领域取得成功。
It also identifies one of the reasons why chatter can be so unbelievably pernicious.
它还确定了闲聊为何如此有害的原因之一。
So we didn't get to all the benefits of the-- There's one more benefit of the inner voice that I want to get to, but I'm going to take a detour here for a second because I think this is really important.
所以我们没有得到所有的好处——我还想得到内心声音的另一个好处，但我要在这里绕一下，因为我认为这非常重要。
If we think of chatter as the dark side of your inner voice, you're basically continuing to loop over the same problem in your head without making any progress.
如果我们认为喋喋不休是你内心声音的阴暗面，那么你基本上就是在脑子里继续循环思考同样的问题，却没有取得任何进展。
What if this happens?
如果发生这种情况怎么办？
Why did this happen?
为什么会发生这种情况？
I'm such an imbecile.
我真是个低能儿。
You're just continually going over that negative phenomenon or experience.
你只是不断地回顾那些消极的现象或经历。
You're not making any headway.
你没有取得任何进展。
One of the things that that does is it consumes our attentional resources.
这样做的原因之一是它消耗了我们的注意力资源。
It acts like a sponge that soaks up those limited resources.
它就像一块海绵，吸收那些有限的资源。
And so what that means is when I get on the treadmill or rowing machine, and that's typically the time that I spend innovating, coming up with solutions that allow me to progress personally and professionally, my mind's not working to solve those problems.
所以这意味着当我踏上跑步机或划船机时，这通常是我花在创新上的时间，想出让我在个人和专业上取得进步的解决方案，我的大脑并没有致力于解决这些问题。
Instead, it is stuck dealing with this other muck where I'm not getting anywhere.
相反，它被困在处理其他我一无所获的垃圾上。
And so we actually see, if you look at the literature, that one of the ways that chatter undermines people is it interferes with their ability to focus and solve problems.
因此，如果你看一下文献，我们实际上会发现，喋喋不休破坏人们的方式之一是它干扰了他们集中注意力和解决问题的能力。
And that's just one way it undermines people, but that is a huge liability.
这只是它损害人们利益的一种方式，但这是一个巨大的责任。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is there an association between trauma and elevated levels of internal chatter?
创伤和内心喋喋不休的水平升高之间是否存在关联？
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
I would say even more than an association.
我想说的不仅仅是一个协会。
So we often think of chatter as what we call a transdiagnostic mechanism, so it's a mouthful, that predicts various kinds of mood disorders.
所以我们经常把喋喋不休看作是一种跨诊断机制，所以它很拗口，可以预测各种情绪障碍。
So what that means is chatter refers to a process, a process of looping, turning the same material over and over in your head.
所以这意味着喋喋不休是指一个过程，一个循环的过程，在你的头脑中一遍又一遍地翻动相同的材料。
The content of that looping can take many different forms.
该循环的内容可以采用多种不同的形式。
You could inject some sad cognitions in there.
You could inject some sad cognitions in there.
"I'm a shit, such a shit." Is it okay to say shit?
“我真是个废物，真是个废物。”说脏话可以吗？
Should I say the shit?
我应该说废话吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm pretty sure.
我很确定。
David Goggins was on this podcast.
大卫·戈金斯参与了这个播客。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
You know.
你知道。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Pretty much anything goes.
几乎一切都会发生。
Typically, we don't swear at each other, but-
通常，我们不会互相咒骂，但是——
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Okay.
好的。
Well, I should hope not
好吧，我希望不会
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I'm pretty thick-skinned if you need to.
如果你需要的话，我脸皮很厚。
I've been called way worse than anything you could come up with here.
我被骂的比你能想到的更糟糕。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
You've been boxing.
你一直在打拳击。
I actually boxed in high school.
I actually boxed in high school.
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I don't recommend people box unless they're-
我不建议人们使用盒子，除非他们-
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
professional, and even then.
专业，甚至那时。
I must say, as a neuroscientist-
我必须说，作为一名神经科学家——
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
It's a lot of fun.
这很有趣。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
And on Wednesday nights, I'd spar a little bit, but I will say this, there are other sports where you can go level 10 out of 10-
周三晚上，我会进行一些练习，但我要说的是，还有其他运动，你可以在 10 级中达到 10 级 -
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
much more safely for the brain, like Brazilian jujitsu and things like that.
对大脑来说更安全，比如巴西柔术之类的。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
You typically don't want to insult the brain.
You typically don't want to insult the brain.
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
As a neuroscientist, I can't encourage people to box .
作为一名神经科学家，我不能鼓励人们打拳击。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
I would agree.
我同意。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
In any case, I promise not to leap across the table if you do the same.
无论如何，如果你也这样做，我保证不会跳到桌子上。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Fair enough.
很公平。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Deal?
交易？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Fair deal.
公平交易。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
So basically, chatter refers to this process of looping over and over.
所以基本上，喋喋不休指的是这个一遍又一遍循环的过程。
If you inject some sad cognitions in there, "I'm an imbecile.
如果你在那里注入一些悲伤的认知，“我是个低能儿。
I'm never going to live up to my potential.
我永远不会发挥我的潜力。
I don't belong here." If you take that to an extreme high intensity and you perseverate over time, then you're getting towards depression.
我不属于这里。”如果你把这种情绪达到极高的强度并且长期坚持下去，那么你就会走向抑郁。
If you inject anxiety-provoking cognitions, "Oh my God, what if this happens, and what if that happens?" And you go down that path of uncertainty and fear, well, that leads you to more of the anxious route.
如果你注入引发焦虑的认知，“天啊，如果发生这种事怎么办，如果发生那种事怎么办？”你沿着那条充满不确定性和恐惧的道路走下去，好吧，这会让你走上更多焦虑的道路。
And if you are filling that loop with traumatic memories and reminders of really painful experiences, you can get pushed towards trauma, too.
如果你在这个循环中充满创伤性记忆和真正痛苦经历的提醒，你也可能会被推向创伤。
So it is a process that cuts across many different, really serious conditions that we grapple with in society.
因此，这个过程跨越了我们在社会中应对的许多不同的、非常严重的状况。
But I want to also be clear to folks who are listening that if you experience chatter, that does not mean you have any of those disorders.
但我还想向听众澄清，如果您经历喋喋不休，并不意味着您患有任何这些疾病。
If you experience chatter, welcome to the human condition, my friends, because most of us do at times.
如果你经历过喋喋不休的经历，我的朋友们，欢迎来到人类的处境，因为我们大多数人有时都会这样做。
And so we often don't experience it as intensely or for long stretches of time, which tends to characterize some of those clinical groups.
因此，我们通常不会强烈或长时间地经历这种情况，而这往往是某些临床群体的特征。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd like to take a quick break and thank one of our sponsors, Function.
我想稍微休息一下，并感谢我们的赞助商之一 Function。
I recently became a Function member after searching for the most comprehensive approach to lab testing.
在寻找最全面的实验室测试方法后，我最近成为了 Function 成员。
While I've long been a fan of blood testing, I really wanted to find a more in-depth program for analyzing blood, urine, and saliva to get a full picture of my heart health, my hormone status, my immune system regulation, my metabolic function, my vitamin and mineral status, and other critical areas of my overall health and vitality.
虽然我长期以来一直热衷于血液检测，但我真的很想找到一个更深入的程序来分析血液、尿液和唾液，以全面了解我的心脏健康状况、我的激素状态、我的免疫系统调节、我的代谢功能、我的维生素和矿物质状态以及我整体健康和活力的其他关键领域。
Function not only provides testing of over 100 biomarkers key to physical and mental health, but it also analyzes these results and provides insights from top doctors on your results.
Function 不仅提供对身心健康至关重要的 100 多种生物标志物的测试，还分析这些结果并提供顶级医生对结果的见解。
For example, in one of my first tests with Function, I learned that I had too high levels of mercury in my blood.
例如，在我第一次使用 Function 进行测试时，我发现我的血液中汞含量过高。
This was totally surprising to me.
这让我完全惊讶。
I had no idea prior to taking the test.
参加考试之前我不知道。
Function not only helped me detect this, but offered medical doctor-informed insights on how to best reduce those mercury levels, which included limiting my tuna consumption, because I had been eating a lot of tuna, while also making an effort to eat more leafy greens and supplementing with NAC, N-acetylcysteine, both of which can support glutathione production and detoxification, and worked to reduce my mercury levels.
功能不仅帮助我发现了这一点，而且还为我提供了关于如何最好地降低汞含量的医生知情见解，其中包括限制我的金枪鱼消费，因为我一直在吃大量金枪鱼，同时还努力吃更多的绿叶蔬菜并补充 NAC、N-乙酰半胱氨酸，这两者都可以支持谷胱甘肽的产生和解毒，并努力降低我的汞含量。
Comprehensive lab testing like this is so important for health, and while I've been doing it for years, I've always found it to be overly complicated and expensive.
像这样的综合实验室测试对健康非常重要，虽然我已经这样做了很多年，但我总是发现它过于复杂和昂贵。
I've been so impressed by Function, both at the level of ease of use, that is getting the test done, as well as how comprehensive and how actionable the tests are, that I recently joined their advisory board, and I'm thrilled that they're sponsoring the podcast.
Function 给我留下了深刻的印象，无论是在易用性方面，还是在完成测试方面，以及测试的全面性和可操作性方面，我最近加入了他们的顾问委员会，我很高兴他们赞助了这个播客。
If you'd like to try Function, go to functionhealth.com/huberman.
如果您想尝试 Function，请访问 functionhealth.com/huberman。
Function currently has a wait list of over 250,000 people, but they're offering early access to Huberman Lab listeners.
Function 目前有超过 250,000 人的等待名单，但他们正在为 Huberman Lab 听众提供早期访问机会。
Again, that's functionhealth.com/huberman to get early access to Function.
同样，可以通过 functionhealth.com/huberman 提前访问 Function。
If you had to highlight for now, and we'll get back to others in a moment, the best maybe one or two ways to combat chatter-
如果您现在必须强调，我们稍后会回复其他人，那么最好的可能是一两种消除喋喋不休的方法-
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
what would those be?
那些会是什么？
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Well, let me tell you about a couple of things that I do personally, because as we try to regulate lots of different emotional experiences, different tools work for different people in different situations.
好吧，让我告诉你一些我个人做的事情，因为当我们试图调节许多不同的情感体验时，不同的工具适用于不同情况下的不同人。
There are upwards of two dozen or more science-based tools that I covered when I wrote "Chatter," when I got into "Shift," the broader terrain of regulating your emotions.
当我写“Chatter”时，当我进入“Shift”（调节情绪的更广泛领域）时，我涵盖了多达两打或更多基于科学的工具。
There are even more tools out there.
There are even more tools out there.
So I don't want to presume that the tools that work for me are going to work for everyone.
因此，我不想假设对我有用的工具也适用于每个人。
My first line of defense when it comes to chatter are two distancing tools.
当谈到聊天时，我的第一道防线是两个疏远工具。
So when I'm using the term distancing, what I'm talking about is not avoidance per se.
因此，当我使用“距离”这个词时，我所说的并不是回避本身。
We should talk about avoidance later.
We should talk about avoidance later.
But what I'm talking about when I say distancing is the ability to step back and view myself from a slightly more objective perspective.
但当我说保持距离时，我指的是退后一步，从更客观的角度看待自己的能力。
And it turns out there are many different tactics that exist for doing this.
事实证明，有许多不同的策略可以做到这一点。
One tactic that I find very powerful is language.
我发现非常有效的一种策略是语言。
So I can manipulate the words I use to refer to myself.
所以我可以操纵我用来指代自己的词语。
So I will often use my name and the second person pronoun "you" to try to think through a problem.
所以我会经常使用我的名字和第二人称代词“你”来尝试思考问题。
"Ethan, how are you going to manage this situation?" If you think about when we use words like you, they are the verbal equivalent of pointing a finger at someone else.
“伊森，你打算如何应对这种情况？”如果你想一想，当我们使用像“你”这样的词时，它们就相当于用手指指着别人。
And when you use your name and you to work through a problem, it's automatically switching your perspective.
当你使用你的名字和你来解决问题时，它会自动切换你的观点。
It's getting you to relate to yourself like you're giving advice to someone else.
它让你与自己建立联系，就像你给别人提供建议一样。
And it turns out that's a really powerful tool, because one of the things we know about human beings is we are much better at giving advice to others than we are taking that advice ourselves.
事实证明，这是一个非常强大的工具，因为我们对人类的了解之一是，我们更擅长向他人提供建议，而不是自己接受建议。
Have you ever experienced this, Andrew?
Have you ever experienced this, Andrew?
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Gosh, no. Yes, of course.
天哪，不。是的当然。
Absolutely.
绝对地。
Our optics are just much clearer when we're in observation than when we're internally.
当我们进行观察时，我们的视野比我们在内部时要清晰得多。
Unless I find that I dedicate some real minutes or hours, basically a sort of meditation, not unlike the complete sentence construction exploration that we were talking about before, of just going inward and really saying, "Okay, let's have a conversation about this intro."
除非我发现我投入了一些真正的分钟或小时，基本上是一种冥想，与我们之前讨论的完整句子构造探索不同，只是向内并真正说：“好吧，让我们谈谈这个介绍。”
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And having a conversation with myself in there, and that always leads to an obvious truth.
在那里与自己对话，这总是会导致一个明显的事实。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or sometimes a decision node that isn't clear to me yet, but it leads someplace that feels like forward.
或者有时我还不清楚一个决策节点，但它会导致某个感觉像是前进的地方。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
But you're taking special steps to be able to align yourself with the advice that you would give to someone else.
但你正在采取特殊的步骤，以便能够使自己与你向别人提供的建议保持一致。
Reflexively, sometimes we stumble, right?
Reflexively, sometimes we stumble, right?
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, absolutely.
哦，绝对是。
And the number of different ways that we can distract ourselves, this is what I was going to ask in a few moments, but I'll take the opportunity now.
我们可以用多少种不同的方式来分散自己的注意力，这就是我稍后要问的问题，但我现在要抓住这个机会。
I am wondering as we're talking about this today, if one of the more powerful hooks of social media is the scroll aspect.
我想知道当我们今天讨论这个问题时，社交媒体更强大的吸引力之一是否是滚动方面。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That with essentially zero effort, we can pick up a device and scroll through images and movies, and it will update the imagery and topics, of course, according to what it senses as our dwell times on certain pages.
基本上，我们可以零费力地拿起一个设备并滚动图像和电影，当然，它会根据我们在某些页面上的停留时间感知到的情况来更新图像和主题。
And all of a sudden, we don't have to think about what's in our head.
突然之间，我们不必再考虑脑子里的事情了。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
My dad used to refer to surfing the internet, because at that time it was that, and scrolling social media as kind of a cognitive chewing gum.
我父亲曾经提到过上网，因为当时就是这样，而滚动社交媒体就像一种认知口香糖。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It keeps us busy, but it doesn't provide any real nutrition.
它让我们忙碌，但它并不能提供任何真正的营养。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Well, it's interesting, if you go back to when Facebook first came on the scene, one of the early prompts that it would use to get people to contribute textual information too, do you remember what this was?
嗯，这很有趣，如果你回到 Facebook 刚出现的时候，它也用来让人们贡献文本信息的早期提示之一，你还记得这是什么吗？
What is on your mind?
你在想什么？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, no. Really?
哦，不。真的吗？
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
So you would be cued to share what is on your mind.
所以你会被提示分享你的想法。
And in some ways, you could think of various forms of social media as providing people with a giant megaphone for their inner voice.
在某些方面，您可以将各种形式的社交媒体视为为人们提供内心声音的巨大扩音器。
It is literally asking you, or it did, "What is on your mind right now?"
它实际上是在问你，或者确实是这样，“你现在在想什么？”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So that's in terms of posting.
这就是发帖方面。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Posting, exactly.
发帖，确切地说。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Like what's on your mind.
就像你脑子里想的一样。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But in terms of consuming information-
但就消费信息而言——
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
which I think most people on social media seem to be consumers more than creators.
我认为社交媒体上的大多数人似乎更多地是消费者而不是创造者。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's remarkable to me how I can pick up the phone, and I have a specific phone with Instagram and X on it, and those apps are not on any other phones.
对我来说，如何拿起手机是很了不起的，而且我有一部特定的手机，上面有 Instagram 和 X，而且这些应用程序不在任何其他手机上。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So that it's segregated from-
这样它就与-隔离开来了
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah, smart
是啊，聪明
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
if somebody sends me a tweet or sends me an Instagram post, I'm not going to open it.
如果有人给我发推文或 Instagram 帖子，我不会打开它。
I can't open it on those phones.
我无法在这些手机上打开它。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And that's helped a lot.
这很有帮助。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
We should come back to that-
我们应该回到这一点——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
...
...
because that's also modifying your spaces, which is another tool that I think is underutilized.
因为这也会修改您的空间，这是我认为未得到充分利用的另一个工具。
So we should talk about that, too.
所以我们也应该谈谈这个。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We'll definitely touch on that.
我们肯定会谈到这一点。
What I find is I'll say, "Okay, I'm going to take six minutes.
我发现我会说：“好吧，我要花六分钟。
It's six minutes till the hour.
距离整点时间还有六分钟。
Take six minutes-"
花六分钟——”
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
"with this." And what's incredible is how fast six minutes seems to go by.
“有了这个。”令人难以置信的是六分钟似乎过得多么快。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Oh.
哦。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's what's so striking.
这就是如此引人注目的地方。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
It's remarkable, and not always bad.
这很了不起，而且并不总是那么糟糕。
So we often talk about social media like it is a de facto harm to society.
因此，我们经常谈论社交媒体，就像它对社会造成事实上的伤害一样。
There are negative features of social media that are well documented.
社交媒体的负面特征是有据可查的。
There are also some, I would argue, redemptive qualities to it.
我认为它还有一些救赎的品质。
I'll give you one of my personal ones, which is sometimes to unwind before bed, I'm thinking all day, I want to just watch some ridiculously funny short reels.
我会给你一个我个人的，有时是在睡觉前放松一下，我整天都在想，我只想看一些可笑的短片。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Raccoon videos.
浣熊视频。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
My wife looks over at me, she's like, "What are you laughing at?" And then sometimes I show her, and she goes, "Why are you laughing at that?" But the algorithm has learned The specific kinds of funny videos that I like, and no, I'm not going to tell you what they are.
我妻子看着我，问道：“你笑什么？”有时我给她看，她就会说：“你为什么笑这个？”但算法已经了解了我喜欢的特定类型的有趣视频，不，我不会告诉你它们是什么。
And it just lightens the load.
而且它只是减轻了负担。
And so that's a way that I'm using social media very strategically to shift my emotions in a direction I want them to be shifted at a certain time.
因此，这就是我非常有策略地使用社交媒体来将我的情绪转变为我希望它们在某个时间转变的方向的一种方式。
I think when we talk about social media and our emotional lives, the real challenge we face is how to learn how to navigate these new digital environments in ways that serve us rather than serve against us and undermine our goals.
我认为，当我们谈论社交媒体和我们的情感生活时，我们面临的真正挑战是如何学习如何以服务我们的方式驾驭这些新的数字环境，而不是反对我们并破坏我们的目标。
We basically got thrown into social media without any rulebook.
我们基本上在没有任何规则手册的情况下就被扔进了社交媒体。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, we're the experiment.
是的，我们就是实验对象。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
We're the experiment.
我们就是实验对象
But if you think about it, it's a new environment.
但仔细想想，又是一个新环境。
We were born into this physical world, and our parents, our caretakers, from the time we're able to understand things and probably before, they are teaching us, they are socializing us how to navigate this space profitably.
我们出生在这个物质世界里，我们的父母，我们的照顾者，从我们能够理解事物的时候起，可能之前，他们就在教我们，他们在让我们社交，如何在这个空间中盈利。
They don't just "Lord of the Flies" throw us into the world and let us figure it out.
他们不只是《蝇王》把我们带入这个世界并让我们弄清楚它。
Outcomes wouldn't be likely as good as they are for us if we didn't have the kind of instruction that we receive.
如果我们没有得到这样的指导，结果可能不会像我们现在那么好。
And we're only now developing that knowledge base to understand, hey, here are the healthy versus harmful versus benign ways of navigating social media.
我们现在才开发这个知识库来理解，嘿，这里有健康、有害、良性的社交媒体浏览方式。
And I'm talking about social media now like it's this unitary environment.
我现在谈论的是社交媒体，就像它是一个统一的环境一样。
Different social media applications, of course, have their own norms and rules of the games.
当然，不同的社交媒体应用有自己的规范和游戏规则。
You could think of them as little different countries.
你可以将它们视为不同的国家。
They have their own little microcultures that you want to learn how to navigate.
他们有自己的小微文化，你想学习如何驾驭它们。
And scientists are really busy trying to understand how they function, but it's tricky.
科学家们正忙于了解它们的功能，但这很棘手。
And it's tricky because creators can change how these applications govern by a press of a button.
这很棘手，因为创建者可以通过按一下按钮来更改这些应用程序的管理方式。
You could change the way the algorithm works, and then you've got to start over to some extent.
你可以改变算法的工作方式，然后你必须在某种程度上重新开始。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I've been told by people in my life that one of the main reasons they get onto their phone in the middle of the night if they happen to wake up is that it allows a very soothing distraction compared to trying to wrestle with the fire hose of thoughts in their head.
我身边的人告诉我，他们在半夜醒来时打开手机的主要原因之一是，与试图与头脑中的思绪搏斗相比，手机可以提供一种非常舒缓的分心。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And that it's kind of like the way you describe these funny videos that you won't disclose to us.
这有点像你描述这些有趣视频的方式，但你不会向我们透露。
That sounds like-
听起来像——
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
They typically involve pranks.
它们通常涉及恶作剧。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, okay.
哦，好吧。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Noted.
注意到了。
We used to hear that people would have a drink after work to just take the edge off-
我们以前听说人们下班后会喝一杯来缓解压力——
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
or something like that.
或类似的东西。
I feel like social media is doing that for a lot of people.
我觉得社交媒体正在为很多人做到这一点。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The way you describe it fits with that idea.
你描述它的方式符合这个想法。
And that I certainly believe that from everything we know about the circadian health literature, that you want to avoid looking at your phone between the hours of 11:00 PM and 4:00 AM most nights.
我当然相信，根据我们对昼夜节律健康文献的了解，您希望避免在大多数晚上的晚上 11:00 到凌晨 4:00 之间看手机。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I know nobody's perfect, but that if you wake up in the middle of the night, one of the worst things you can do is get on your phone and start scrolling social media.
我知道没有人是完美的，但如果你在半夜醒来，你能做的最糟糕的事情之一就是拿起手机并开始滚动社交媒体。
But I'm guessing people do it because it feels even worse to just sit there with your thoughts in the dark.
但我猜人们这样做是因为坐在黑暗中思考的感觉更糟糕。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
It's a shifter, but this is a perfect segue back to you asking me about the tools that you recommend for fighting chatter, and I'm telling you about the ones I use.
这是一个转移器，但这是一个完美的转折，回到你问我你推荐的用于对抗聊天的工具，我告诉你我使用的那些工具。
So there's a second tool that I will use automatically when I detect the chatter brewing, and I call it my 2:00 AM chatter strategy.
因此，当我检测到喋喋不休的酝酿时，我将自动使用第二个工具，我将其称为我的凌晨 2:00 喋喋不休策略。
And I call it my 2:00 AM chatter strategy because every seemingly four to six weeks, I will go to bed happy and content, and then I'll wake up at 2:00 AM and it is all going to hell really fast.
我把它称为我的凌晨 2:00 喋喋不休策略，因为每隔四到六周，我就会快乐而满足地上床睡觉，然后我会在凌晨 2:00 醒来，一切都很快就会变得糟糕。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What time do you typically go to sleep?
您通常什么时间睡觉？
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Usually around 11:00, 11:30.
一般是11:00、11:30左右。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Interesting.
有趣。
Yeah, this is a common problem for a lot of people, and there are some tools like long exhale breathing and-
是的，这是很多人的常见问题，有一些方法，比如长呼气和-
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
things that clearly work.
明显有效的事情。
I long ago made a decision.
我很久以前就做出了决定。
I refuse to believe any thought that occurs between the hours of 2:00 AM and 5:00 AM.
我拒绝相信凌晨 2:00 至 5:00 之间出现的任何想法。
I just refuse.
我只是拒绝。
I don't believe it.
我不相信。
It's as if somebody's lying to me in my head.
就好像有人在我心里对我撒谎。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And one could argue, well, maybe that's where the truth is coming out because your forebrain is not so good at suppressing these unconscious thoughts.
有人可能会说，好吧，也许这就是真相的真相，因为你的前脑不太擅长抑制这些无意识的想法。
And sure, all good, but as you point out, they are rarely the kind of thoughts that one can work with, positive or negative.
当然，一切都很好，但正如你所指出的，它们很少是一种可以处理的想法，无论是积极的还是消极的。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
So the tool that I use actually implicitly activates an idea like the one you are describing.
因此，我使用的工具实际上隐式地激活了像您所描述的那样的想法。
So at 2:00 AM when the chatter strikes, and by the way, you say this is common.
凌晨 2:00，当喋喋不休的时候，顺便说一句，你说这很常见。
This is more than common.
这很常见。
When I present to audiences and thousands and thousands of people over the years and I ask, "Hey, you ever get 2:00 AM chatter?
多年来，当我向观众和成千上万的人展示时，我会问：“嘿，你们曾经在凌晨 2:00 听到过闲聊吗？
Maybe 2:30 AM?" All the hands go up.
也许是凌晨 2:30？”所有的手都举起来。
This is a, I don't want to say universal affliction, but it is an incredibly common problem that people struggle with, the chatter at night.
我不想说这是一种普遍的痛苦，但它是人们苦苦挣扎的一个非常普遍的问题，即夜里的喋喋不休。
So what I do is I use something called mental time travel.
所以我所做的就是使用一种叫做心理时间旅行的东西。
Mental time travel into the future.
精神时间旅行到未来。
And what I do is I ask myself, and I typically use my own name to do it, so I'm blending another distancing tool, distant self-talk.
我所做的就是问自己，我通常使用自己的名字来做到这一点，所以我混合了另一种疏远工具，即遥远的自言自语。
I say, "Ethan, how are you going to feel about this tomorrow morning?" No matter how bad the chatter ever is at 2:00 AM, to your point, when I wake up the next morning and my brain is fully awake and I have access to my prefrontal cortex and I can think constructively about things, it is never as bad that next morning as it is in the middle of the night.
我说：“伊森，明天早上你对此有何感想？”无论凌晨 2:00 的喋喋不休有多糟糕，就你的观点而言，当我第二天早上醒来，我的大脑完全清醒，我可以访问我的前额叶皮层，我可以建设性地思考事情时，第二天早上的情况永远不会像半夜那么糟糕。
We of course have learned that over time because how many mornings have we woken up in our lives, we could do the math if I was more sophisticated.
我们当然已经了解到，随着时间的推移，因为我们一生中有多少个早晨醒来，如果我更老练的话，我们可以做数学计算。
I'd do it on the fly.
我会即时完成。
I can't.
我不能。
But many, many mornings we've experienced this, like chatter at 2:00 AM, at 7:00 AM, not so bad.
但很多很多个早晨我们都经历过这种情况，比如凌晨 2:00、早上 7:00 的聊天，情况还不错。
So when you jump into this mental time travel machine and you ask yourself, "How am I going to feel about this tomorrow morning?" ...
因此，当你跳入这台精神时间旅行机器时，你会问自己：“明天早上我对此有何感受？” ...
next week, next year, 10 years from now.
下周，明年，十年后。
What that does is it activates this understanding that what you are going through, as bad as it may seem, it is temporary.
这样做的作用是激活这样的理解：你正在经历的事情，尽管看起来很糟糕，但这只是暂时的。
It will eventually subside.
它最终会消退。
And that does something very powerful for a mind that is consumed with chatter.
对于一个被喋喋不休的头脑来说，这有非常强大的作用。
It turns the volume down on it, which for me is often all I have to do to get back to bed.
它会调低音量，对我来说，这通常是我回到床上所要做的一切。
So the official name for this tool is not mental time travel, it is called temporal distancing, and it's a flexible tool.
所以这个工具的正式名称不是精神时间旅行，它叫时间距离，它是一个灵活的工具。
You can ask yourself if you're struggling with a problem, how you're going to feel about it tomorrow, next week, 10 years from now, and it's another way of broadening your perspective.
你可以问问自己，如果你正在为某个问题而苦苦挣扎，明天、下周、十年后你对此有何感受，这是拓宽你的视野的另一种方式。
It's another kind of distancing tool that has a lot of science behind it.
这是另一种疏远工具，背后有很多科学依据。
So those are the two of the cognitive things that I do on my own, and that nips a significant chunk of the chatter that I experience in the bud when it happens.
所以，这是我自己做的两件认知事情，它们消除了我在萌芽状态下经历的大部分闲聊。
And I should add that because I know about what chatter is and I know about how these tools work, I am exceptionally strategic in utilizing those tools the moment I detect the chatter brewing.
我应该补充一点，因为我知道什么是闲聊，也知道这些工具是如何工作的，所以当我发现闲聊正在酝酿时，我就会非常有策略地利用这些工具。
So people will often ask, "Hey, do you ever experience chatter?" I'm like, "Yeah, of course.
所以人们经常会问：“嘿，你有过喋喋不休的经历吗？”我想，“是的，当然。
Pinch me, I'm a living, breathing human being.
掐我吧，我是一个活生生的、会呼吸的人。
I do at times." But I'm really good at detecting it and then implementing tools in an almost automatic manner.
我有时会这样做。”但我真的很擅长检测它，然后以几乎自动的方式实现工具。
If this happens, if the chatter strikes, then I'm going to coach myself through the problem using my own AIM and you, and I'm going to jump into the mental time travel machine and ask myself, how am I going to feel about this in the future?
如果发生这种情况，如果喋喋不休，那么我将使用我自己的 AIM 和你来指导自己解决问题，然后我将跳入心理时间旅行机器并问自己，将来我对此有何感受？
If that's not sufficient, then I'll go to the level two response, which consists of, if weather permits, I'll go for a walk in a safe, natural setting.
如果这还不够，那么我将进入二级响应，其中包括，如果天气允许，我将在安全、自然的环境中散步。
I always feel the need to give the caveat about safe and natural because where I grew up in Brooklyn, the natural settings were the place you got mugged.
我总是觉得有必要对安全和自然提出警告，因为我在布鲁克林长大，自然环境就是你被抢劫的地方。
So they were not safe.
所以他们并不安全。
But a park I find restorative, and there's a ton of work highlighting the restorative features of green spaces.
但我发现公园具有恢复性，并且有大量工作强调绿色空间的恢复性特征。
But then what I'll also do is I'll dial up the chatter advisory board.
但接下来我要做的就是拨打闲聊咨询委员会的电话。
So I have a couple of people that I have carefully thought about what these people do for me when I have a problem, and they importantly don't just let me vent my emotions or cathect, used that term before.
因此，我仔细考虑了一些人，当我遇到问题时，他们会为我做些什么，重要的是，他们不只是让我发泄我的情绪或发泄，以前用过这个词。
I don't just get it out.
我不只是把它拿出来。
A lot of people think that the key to feeling better is to vent your emotions.
很多人认为，让情绪好起来的关键是发泄情绪。
There's research on this.
有这方面的研究。
Venting is good for strengthening bonds between people.
发泄有利于加强人与人之间的联系。
It's good to know that, we're buddies now, I could call you up if I'm struggling, you're going to listen to me and empathize with me.
很高兴知道，我们现在是朋友了，如果我遇到困难，我可以给你打电话，你会听我说话并同情我。
That's great for our relationship.
这对我们的关系很有好处。
But if all you do is just validate what I'm going through, and you don't take the next step to additionally help me look at that bigger picture and problem solve, I leave the conversation feeling really good about my relationship with you, but the problem is still there.
但是，如果你所做的只是验证我正在经历的事情，而不采取下一步行动来帮助我着眼更大的前景并解决问题，那么我在谈话结束时对我与你的关系感觉非常好，但问题仍然存在。
So just venting ends up leading to what we call co-rumination, which can be pretty harmful.
因此，仅仅发泄最终会导致我们所说的共同反思，这可能是非常有害的。
The people on my chatter advisory board, they know to first validate, empathize with me, learn about what I'm going through.
我的喋喋不休咨询委员会的人知道首先要验证我的观点，同情我，了解我正在经历的事情。
They've got my back.
他们支持我。
They communicate that powerfully.
他们的沟通非常有力。
But then once they do that, they start working with me to broaden the perspective, to try to think through that problem, which I'm having difficulty doing sometimes when the chatter is really, really loud.
但一旦他们这样做了，他们就会开始与我合作，拓宽视野，尝试思考这个问题，有时当喋喋不休的声音很大时，我很难做到这一点。
And typically, when I get to that stage, I'm in pretty good shape.
通常，当我到达那个阶段时，我的状态就非常好。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I love your examples of how you deal with chatter.
我喜欢你如何处理闲聊的例子。
Your example of going to sleep, and the reason I asked when you go to sleep at about 11:00 p.m.
你关于睡觉的例子，以及我问你晚上 11:00 左右睡觉的原因。
and waking up at 2:00 or 3:00, and that being a very common issue is, as far as I understand, reflective of the fact that early in the night, our sleep is dominated by slow-wave deep sleep-
并在 2:00 或 3:00 醒来，据我了解，这是一个非常常见的问题，反映出这样一个事实：在深夜，我们的睡眠主要是慢波深度睡眠 -
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
with less rapid eye movement sleep.
睡眠时快动眼较少。
And then somewhere right about that transition time, it's not necessarily 2:00 or 3:00 a.m.
然后，在该过渡时间附近的某个位置，不一定是凌晨 2:00 或 3:00。
per se, but given that you were asleep for about three, four hours.
本身，但考虑到你睡了大约三、四个小时。
After about three, four hours of sleep, the proportion of our sleep that is rapid eye movement sleep relative to deep slow-wave sleep shifts dramatically.
大约三到四个小时的睡眠后，我们的睡眠中快速眼动睡眠相对于深度慢波睡眠的比例会发生巨大变化。
The intensity of our dreams shifts dramatically.
我们梦想的强度发生了巨大的变化。
They become more emotionally laden.
他们变得更加情绪化。
And that whole process of having those rapid eye movement sleep-associated dreams is strongly associated with the removal of an emotional load in the morning when we wake.
那些与快速眼动睡眠相关的梦的整个过程与我们早上醒来时情绪负担的消除密切相关。
We know this because if you selectively deprive people of early night-
我们知道这一点是因为如果你有选择地剥夺人们早起的夜晚-
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
versus late night sleep, and so on.
与深夜睡眠等等。
The reason I mention this is that one tool that I certainly have found useful is that-- Well, two tools really.
我之所以提到这一点，是因为我确实发现了一个有用的工具——嗯，确实是两个工具。
If people just understand that one of the reasons they'll wake up suddenly at 2:00 or 3:00 a.m.
如果人们明白他们会在凌晨 2:00 或 3:00 突然醒来的原因之一。
is that they're undergoing this transition from a one form of sleep to another.
是他们正在经历从一种睡眠形式到另一种睡眠形式的转变。
It's almost like a different beast altogether, and that heart racing, emotionally laden thoughts is characteristic of where they're supposed to be in the sleep architecture cycle.
这几乎就像一头完全不同的野兽，心跳加速、情绪激动的想法是它们在睡眠结构周期中应该处于的位置的特征。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So that's number one.
所以这是第一。
The other is that the tool that you provided of getting into this mental time travel, I'd like to just double-click on this notion of time perception.
另一个是你提供的进入这种精神时间旅行的工具，我想双击这个时间感知的概念。
In sleep and dreaming, time is very fluid.
在睡眠和做梦中，时间是非常流动的。
You can be in one environment than another.
您可以处于一种环境而不是另一种环境。
It seems compressed.
看起来很压缩。
A lot happens in a short amount of time.
短时间内发生了很多事情。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
When we are in chatter in the daytime, to what extent does it alter our perception of time?
当我们白天闲聊时，它会在多大程度上改变我们对时间的感知？
And I have a very specific reason for asking this because I believe that one of the main unifying features among the tools for dealing with depression, anxiety, et cetera, when I survey the research is almost all of them, journaling, meditation, even some of the medications for that matter, involve taking people into a different time perception mode.
我问这个问题有一个非常具体的原因，因为我相信，当我调查研究时，处理抑郁、焦虑等工具的主要统一特征之一是几乎所有这些工具，日记，冥想，甚至一些与此相关的药物，都涉及将人们带入不同的时间感知模式。
And it's a kind of an abstract idea, but I think this may resonate with some of the issues-
这是一种抽象的想法，但我认为这可能会引起一些问题的共鸣——
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
related to chatter, that when we're in a mental frame that's not healthy for where we want to be at that moment, awake when we need to sleep, anxious when we want to be calm, and so forth, that changing our time perception seems to be the most useful thing that we can do, or at least among the most useful.
与喋喋不休相关的是，当我们处于不健康的精神状态时，当我们需要睡觉时清醒，当我们想要平静时焦虑，等等，改变我们的时间感知似乎是我们能做的最有用的事情，或者至少是最有用的事情之一。
So what's the relationship between chatter and time perception?
那么喋喋不休和时间感知之间有什么关系呢？
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
And tell me more about what you mean by time perception.
告诉我更多关于时间感知的意思。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
How broadly or finely we are binning time.
我们对时间进行分类的范围有多广或多细。
So we know that as autonomic arousal, let's call it stress, but wakefulness and autonomic arousal goes up, we're fine-slicing time.
所以我们知道，作为自主唤醒，我们称之为压力，但是觉醒和自主唤醒上升，我们正在精细地切割时间。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
I see.
我明白了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In fact, the pupils get bigger.
事实上，瞳孔变大了。
We actually see-
我们实际上看到——
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
depth of field changes.
景深变化。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We get a higher resolution image of much less.
我们可以用更少的资源获得更高分辨率的图像。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This makes every bit of evolutionary sense.
这一点都具有进化意义。
We can deal with fewer things better.
我们可以更好地处理更少的事情。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And typically, it's the thing that we're fixated or ruminating on.
通常，这是我们关注或思考的事情。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
When we're relaxed, think about sitting back on a beach and you're watching the clouds go by, it's almost like your frame rate-
当我们放松时，想象一下坐在海滩上，看着云朵飘过，这几乎就像你的帧速率一样 -
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
is slower.
速度较慢。
So your higher frame rate is like slow motion.
所以你的更高帧速率就像慢动作。
This is why people who experience trauma often feel like things, or a car crash, you see it in slow motion.
这就是为什么经历过创伤的人经常会感觉像发生了慢动作的事情，或者车祸。
When it's not in slow motion, you're fine-slicing time.
当不是慢动作时，你就可以对时间进行精细切割。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's kind of a remarkable thing, right?
这是一件了不起的事情，对吧？
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This is also how athletes learn to play with their levels of autonomic arousal.
这也是运动员学习如何调节自主唤醒水平的方式。
Fighters can see punches coming in, and it's almost like slow motion, but they can react with full speed.
拳手可以看到拳头打来，这几乎就像慢动作，但他们可以全速做出反应。
Likewise with tennis players will describe this.
同样，网球运动员也会描述这一点。
So-
所以——
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
what we're talking about is dynamically changing the frame rate of one's experience.
我们谈论的是动态改变体验的帧速率。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
It's a very interesting question, and there's not much data that I'm aware of directly linking chatter with time perception the way you're describing it.
这是一个非常有趣的问题，据我所知，没有太多数据可以将喋喋不休与时间感知直接联系起来，就像你所描述的那样。
But what does come to mind are experiences of flow-
但我想到的是心流体验——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
...
...
which in many ways you might consider the opposite of chatter.
在很多方面你可能会认为这与闲聊相反。
Flow being this state where you're just in the moment and time is effortlessly passing.
心流是指你处于当下，时间毫不费力地流逝的状态。
The demands of the situation completely match the skills that you bring to bear.
情况的要求与您所掌握的技能完全匹配。
It almost seems like the antithesis of what you're describing.
这似乎与您所描述的相反。
When I think about time and chatter, what becomes most successful for me is this tendency that we have to really zoom in very narrowly on the object of the chatter, on the thing that is causing that distress.
当我思考时间和闲聊时，对我来说最成功的是这种趋势，我们必须非常狭窄地关注闲聊的对象，关注造成痛苦的事物。
And we focus so narrowly on it, which of course makes a great deal of sense because what are we taught to do from the time we're little kids when we have a problem?
我们如此狭隘地关注它，这当然很有意义，因为从我们还是小孩子的时候，当我们遇到问题时，我们就被教导要做什么？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Think about it, share it.
想一想，分享一下。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
There you go.
就这样吧。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
You got it on try number one.
你在第一次尝试中就得到了它。
Zoom in, focus on the problem, roll up your sleeves and get to the bottom of it.
放大镜头，聚焦问题，卷起袖子，找出问题的根源。
And so that's that kind of really, you're getting in there in fine grain detail and that does work for us a lot of the time, but turns out when you inject a lot of emotion into the equation, that can get really troubling and that's where this zooming out, taking this broader view, whether you do that through visual modalities, imagination modalities, like mental time travel.
所以，这确实是这样的，你会进入细粒度的细节，这在很多时候对我们来说确实有用，但事实证明，当你在方程式中注入很多情感时，这可能会变得非常麻烦，这就是缩小范围，采取更广阔的视野的地方，无论你是通过视觉方式、想象方式，比如精神时间旅行来做到这一点。
You could time travel into the future, like I've just described.
你可以穿越到未来，就像我刚才描述的那样。
You could also go back in time.
你也可以回到过去。
I do this quite a bit.
我经常这样做。
When I'm struggling with some kind of adversity, I will go back in time and think of another experience in my life or someone else's life that I know of when times were even worse and they got through it.
当我在某种逆境中挣扎时，我会回到过去，回想起我生命中的另一段经历，或者我所知道的其他人的生活，当时情况更糟，但他们都度过了难关。
And oh, if I got through that, well, sure as heck I can get through this.
哦，如果我能克服这个困难，那么，我当然可以克服这个困难。
And so that's expanding our perception of time, or looking at that bigger picture to work through something in the present moment.
因此，这正在扩大我们对时间的感知，或者着眼于更大的图景来解决当下的某些事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
How often do you think people, and I do believe this is related to chatter, but if it's not, we can set this aside for another day.
你多久会想到人们，我确实相信这与喋喋不休有关，但如果不是，我们可以把这个问题留到另一天再讨论。
How often do you think people are in kind of negative or positive fantasy?
您认为人们有多少次处于消极或积极的幻想中？
Like as they move through their day.
就像他们度过一天一样。
I'm sure a study's been done asking people what they're thinking about.
我确信已经做过一项研究来询问人们在想什么。
How often is it actually tied to what they're doing or they're supposed to be doing?
有多少次它实际上与他们正在做的事情或他们应该做的事情联系在一起？
Or are they thinking about what they're going to do this weekend?
或者他们正在考虑这个周末要做什么？
Or maybe even constructing entire narratives of things that are non-existent, that they would like to exist, or occasionally we'll see this person, I think we've all seen this person, kind of mumbling to themselves, and it doesn't look like they're mumbling pleasant things.
或者甚至可能构建不存在的事物的完整叙述，它们希望存在，或者偶尔我们会看到这个人，我想我们都见过这个人，有点自言自语，但看起来他们并不在咕哝令人愉快的事情。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
It's because they've just been rejected by a journal editor.
这是因为他们刚刚被期刊编辑拒绝了。
Their article.
他们的文章。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The experience of every scientist.
每个科学家的经验。
And it's of course, always reviewer number two's fault.
当然，这总是第二审稿人的错。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
It is.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They didn't read their paper carefully enough, of course.
当然，他们没有足够仔细地阅读论文。
And none of us have ever been reviewer number two.
我们中没有人曾经是第二号审稿人。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Never.
从来没有。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm being sarcastic, by the way.
顺便说一句，我是在讽刺。
We've all been reviewer number two.
我们都是二号审稿人。
A little academic inside ball humor there.
里面有一点学术幽默。
You'll see somebody mumbling to themselves, and it doesn't look like they're mumbling pleasant things.
你会看到有人自言自语，但他们看起来并不像是在自言自语地说出令人愉快的事情。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We don't know what they're saying to themselves.
我们不知道他们在对自己说什么。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But I'm guessing that if we tapped them and said, "Hey, what were you mumbling?" I would guess that more than 50% of the time it was kind of frustration with stuff.
但我猜如果我们轻拍他们并说：“嘿，你在咕哝什么？”我猜想，超过 50% 的时间是对事物感到沮丧。
You kind of see this, like the frustrated person.
你会看到这一点，就像沮丧的人一样。
It's a hard thing to observe, actually.
事实上，这是一件很难观察到的事情。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So, people have looked at this, and my memory of this wonderful paper, I think it was published in "Science." I think the title was, "A Wandering Mind is an Unhappy Mind."
所以，人们看过这篇文章，而我对这篇精彩论文的记忆，我认为它发表在《科学》上。我认为标题是“徘徊的心灵是不快乐的心灵”。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
And basically the take-home from the article was that people spend between, well, if you look at this paper and lots of others like it, what we can deduce is that people spend between one half and one third of their waking hours not focused on the present.
基本上，这篇文章的结论是，人们花在，好吧，如果你看看这篇论文和许多其他类似的论文，我们可以推断出，人们醒着的时间有一半到三分之一都没有专注于当下。
So between one half and one third of the time, we're drifting away and we're thinking about other things.
所以，有一半到三分之一的时间，我们会走神，想着其他事情。
And this one particular paper linked that process with thinking about things that cause you to feel worse.
这篇特别的论文将这个过程与思考那些让你感觉更糟的事情联系起来。
I think there's huge levels of variability there, though.
不过，我认为其中存在巨大的可变性。
I think being lost in thought can be a wonderful experience.
我认为陷入沉思可能是一种美妙的体验。
I love, love, love mind wandering.
我爱，爱，爱心灵漫游。
I think it's one of my strengths.
我认为这是我的优势之一。
It is the source of idea generation for me.
这是我产生想法的源泉。
It is also the source of emotion regulation.
它也是情绪调节的源泉。
My sleeping pill, metaphorically speaking, is mental time travel.
我的安眠药，打个比方来说，就是精神上的时间旅行。
It's getting away from the present.
它正在远离现在。
It is fantasizing about the future, right?
这是对未来的幻想吧？
Thinking about the good things that could happen, the potentialities, or going into the past and savoring some of the positive things that happened.
思考可能发生的好事、潜力，或者回顾过去并品味发生的一些积极的事情。
I'm thinking about the soccer game where my kids scored goals, or something good happened to someone I know or to me, and that to me is a wonderful way ...
我正在思考我的孩子们进球的足球比赛，或者我认识的人或我身上发生的好事，这对我来说是一种美妙的方式......
of going to bed.
上床睡觉。
That is mental time travel.
这就是精神时间旅行。
It is not being in the moment, which actually raises another really important point that I want to get in there, and I'd love to get your take on this, because in popular culture, we often hear that it's really important to be in the moment.
它不是活在当下，这实际上提出了我想谈的另一个非常重要的观点，我很想听听你对此的看法，因为在流行文化中，我们经常听说活在当下非常重要。
This has emerged as a type of cultural maxim, like be in the now.
这已经成为一种文化格言，就像活在当下一样。
And this idea is often conveyed so strongly that if you're not in the moment, we sometimes think there's something wrong with us, like, "Oh, we got to train our attention to bring it back to the present." Being in the present can be very useful in many contexts, and certainly when we experience chatter, we start worrying about the future or ruminating about the past, refocusing on the present, our breath, a mantra.
这种想法常常被强烈地传达出来，以至于如果你不在当下，我们有时会认为自己出了什么问题，比如，“哦，我们必须训练我们的注意力，让它回到当下。”在许多情况下，活在当下可能非常有用，当然，当我们经历喋喋不休时，我们开始担心未来或反思过去，重新关注现在、我们的呼吸、咒语。
Yes, lots of data support the utility of that.
是的，很多数据都支持它的实用性。
But I always like to remind people that the human mind evolved to be able to travel in time, and lots of amazing things accompany that process.
但我总是想提醒人们，人类思维的进化是为了能够进行时间旅行，并且这个过程伴随着许多令人惊奇的事情。
If I can't go into the past, not only am I not savoring positive experiences which add joy and vitality to my life, I'm also not learning from my screw-ups, which sadly happen to me on a somewhat regular basis.
如果我不能回到过去，我不仅无法享受为我的生活增添欢乐和活力的积极经历，我也无法从我的错误中吸取教训，可悲的是，这种错误经常发生在我身上。
Right?
正确的？
I'm learning from my mistakes by revisiting the past.
我通过回顾过去从错误中吸取教训。
And if I'm not going into the future, then I'm not planning, I'm not simulating, I'm not fantasizing.
如果我不进入未来，那么我就没有计划，我就没有模拟，我就没有幻想。
So we don't want to shut down mental time travel.
所以我们不想关闭精神时间旅行。
I think what we want to learn how to do is how to travel in time in our minds more effectively without that time travel machine breaking down in the past, which is what happens when we get stuck on an experience.
我认为我们想要学习的是如何更有效地在我们的脑海中进行时间旅行，而不会让过去的时间旅行机器发生故障，这就是当我们陷入某种体验时会发生的情况。
Or in the future, when we just find ourselves fixating on something that we're anxious about.
或者在未来，当我们发现自己专注于我们焦虑的事情时。
So, being in the moment can be good, but it is not the endpoint I think we always want to strive for.
所以，活在当下固然很好，但我认为这并不是我们一直想要争取的终点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
To what extent do you think that texting and smartphones, but namely texting, has interfered with sort of time-tested, meaning over hundreds of thousands of years, time-tested mechanisms for us to process our emotions and our thoughts to arrive at better ways of thinking, feeling, being.
您认为短信和智能手机（即短信）在多大程度上干扰了经过时间考验的机制，即数十万年来经过时间考验的机制，这些机制使我们能够处理我们的情绪和思想，从而形成更好的思维、感觉和存在方式。
Nowadays, if you get on a train or a plane, or you're in an Uber, or you're walking to your car and you have a thought about something, "Oh, that grant, that idea," it's so easy to just get into a mode of texting.
如今，如果你乘坐火车或飞机，或者乘坐优步，或者你正走向你的汽车，并且你有一个想法，“哦，那笔拨款，那个想法”，那么很容易就进入一种发短信的模式。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Passive participation, maybe through social media scrolling.
被动参与，也许通过社交媒体滚动。
Again, not universally bad, but you can go to a passive kind of-
再说一次，这并不是普遍的坏事，但你可以采取一种被动的方式——
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Sure
当然可以
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
almost semi-dissociative state.
近乎半解离状态。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You're not really in the parking lot anymore.
你已经不在停车场了。
You're half in your phone and half in the parking lot.
你一半在玩手机，一半在停车场。
And texting, polling people around you as opposed to, quote unquote, in the old days, where you had to actually grapple through this stuff.
发短信，对周围的人进行民意调查，而不是在过去，你必须真正解决这些问题。
As you describe the tools that you use to deal with chatter and to process information and to work with your thinking-
当你描述你用来处理聊天、处理信息和处理你的思维的工具时——
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and your emotions, you strike me as somebody who has a rich jungle gym of things to play with in there.
和你的情感，你给我的印象是一个拥有丰富的丛林健身房可以玩的人。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And a toolkit and an emergency switch if you need it and all that stuff.
还有一个工具包和一个紧急开关（如果您需要的话）等等。
Whereas most people, I think, just have their phone.
而我认为大多数人只有手机。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Who are you going to call?
你要给谁打电话？
Who are you going to text?
你要给谁发短信？
What site are you going to Google search to?
您要通过 Google 搜索到哪个网站？
It can't be good.
不可能是好事。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Well, it often isn't, but it can be harnessed, and here's the way I think about texting and really how social media and the opportunities it gives us to communicate with others whenever we want, how this has thrown a curveball into the way we manage our own emotions and sometimes inadvertently affect the emotions of not just other people, but groups of people and societies.
嗯，它通常不是，但它可以被利用，这就是我对短信的看法，以及社交媒体和它如何为我们提供随时与他人交流的机会，它如何给我们管理自己情绪的方式带来曲线球，有时不经意间不仅影响其他人的情绪，而且影响人群和社会的情绪。
So when we experience emotions, we are often intensely motivated to share those experiences with others.
因此，当我们经历情绪时，我们常常会强烈地想要与他人分享这些经历。
There's this wonderful research program by a Belgium psychologist by the name of Bernard Rimé, who spent his whole life looking at what do you do when you experience emotions, and he found over many decades of work that you're motivated to verbalize it, to get it out.
一位名叫伯纳德·里梅（Bernard Rimé）的比利时心理学家进行了一项精彩的研究项目，他一生都在研究当你经历情绪时你会做什么，他发现，在数十年的研究中，你有动力将情绪表达出来，并将其表达出来。
And there are a couple of reasons for that.
这有几个原因。
We want to relate to other people, get their support, but we also want to usually process it.
我们想要与其他人建立联系，获得他们的支持，但我们也想要通常处理它。
In the pre-social media era, two things had to happen typically to share our emotions.
在前社交媒体时代，通常必须发生两件事才能分享我们的情感。
First, you had to find someone to share them with.
首先，你必须找到可以分享的人。
And typically in the process of looking for someone, either to find someone face-to-face or via phone, time would pass.
通常在寻找某人的过程中，无论是面对面还是通过电话寻找某人，时间都会过去。
Now, what we know about time is that as time proceeds, our emotions in general tend to fade.
现在，我们对时间的了解是，随着时间的推移，我们的情绪通常会逐渐消退。
So there's this wonderful work on the duration of emotional experiences, and our emotional experiences all follow a common trajectory.
因此，这是一部关于情感体验持续时间的精彩著作，我们的情感体验都遵循一个共同的轨迹。
So something happens in the world or in our mind, we imagine something that is provoking in some way, our emotions get triggered, and then as time goes on, they eventually peter out.
因此，世界上或我们的脑海中发生了一些事情，我们想象一些以某种方式激发的事情，我们的情绪被触发，然后随着时间的推移，它们最终会逐渐消失。
And depending on who the person is and what they're dealing with, some people may peak more intensely than others and fade more quickly.
根据这个人是谁以及他们正在处理什么，有些人可能会比其他人更强烈地达到顶峰，并且消退得更快。
Some maybe have shallower peaks and take longer to subside, but they all follow that basic trajectory over time.
有些可能具有较浅的峰值并且需要更长的时间才能消退，但随着时间的推移，它们都遵循这一基本轨迹。
So let's go back to the pre-social media era, right?
那么让我们回到前社交媒体时代，对吧？
So you got to find someone to talk to, and while you're trying to find someone to talk to, time is passing.
所以你必须找人倾诉，而当你试图找人倾诉时，时间就在流逝。
That's acting to temper our emotions.
这就是用行动来调节我们的情绪。
Now, once you find someone to talk to, either face-to-face or via phone, the moment you start talking, you are now awash in all of this feedback, this emotional feedback, whether it's coming from your face, like you're giving me all sorts of information right now.
现在，一旦你找到可以交谈的人，无论是面对面还是通过电话，从你开始交谈的那一刻起，你就会被所有这些反馈、情感反馈所淹没，无论它是来自你的脸，就像你现在给我各种各样的信息一样。
I would benefit from smiling if you could.
如果可以的话，我会从微笑中受益。
There we go.
我们开始吧。
Thank you.
谢谢。
I'm just joking for those who are listening.
我只是对那些正在听的人开玩笑。
But I'm getting information from you, and if I'm talking to someone on the phone, likewise, their vocal tone is expressing to me how they feel.
但我从你那里得到信息，如果我在电话里与某人交谈，同样，他们的语气也在向我表达他们的感受。
That is also working to constrain How we communicate with others, and it's typically keeping our emotions, I would argue, in check, in balance, in proportion.
这也限制了我们与他人交流的方式，而且我认为，它通常会保持我们的情绪受到控制、平衡和比例。
We're stripping away time with social media, and we're also stripping away that kind of emotional feedback.
我们正在剥夺使用社交媒体的时间，我们也正在剥夺这种情感反馈。
This enables us to release our emotions in a much more unfiltered way.
这使我们能够以一种更加未经过滤的方式释放我们的情绪。
And I think this is why you often have situations that people are saying things via text or online that they would never say to another person's face or over the phone.
我认为这就是为什么人们经常通过短信或在线说出他们永远不会当面或通过电话说的话。
And I think this is one of the factors that can promote some pretty negative forces in society.
我认为这是在社会上助长一些相当负面力量的因素之一。
So cyberbullying and the spread of moral outrage surrounding certain issues that might take a more constructive form if they were done in a different context.
因此，网络欺凌和围绕某些问题的道德愤怒的蔓延，如果在不同的背景下进行，可能会采取更具建设性的形式。
Now, that is not to say that social media isn't useful for spreading certain kinds of messages that require attention and are deserving of collective distress.
现在，这并不是说社交媒体对于传播某些需要关注并值得集体痛苦的信息没有用处。
It can be an amazingly useful tool that brings about needed change.
它可能是一个非常有用的工具，可以带来所需的改变。
But I think we do need to be conscious of how interacting with this technology has really fundamentally altered the way we communicate emotional information.
但我认为我们确实需要意识到与这项技术的交互如何真正从根本上改变了我们交流情感信息的方式。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
When I think about the different ways to parse a problem, a real or imagined problem, and I think about the role of web searches, it immediately takes me to either social media or to, I don't know, it could be Reddit, could be some article that was written and posted online in 2019.
当我想到解析问题的不同方法（无论是真实的还是想象的问题），并且想到网络搜索的作用时，我立即想到社交媒体，或者我不知道，可能是 Reddit，也可能是 2019 年在网上编写并发布的一些文章。
These will resurface.
这些将重新出现。
They repurpose these things all the time.
他们一直在改变这些东西的用途。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I don't know why they do that.
我不知道他们为什么这样做。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
I just got emailed this morning about an interview to fact check that I did in 2019.
今天早上我刚刚收到一封电子邮件，内容涉及我在 2019 年进行的一次事实核查采访。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Go figure.
去算算吧。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's cool that there's archival material on the internet.
互联网上有档案材料真是太酷了。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That not everything is fleeting.
并非一切都是转瞬即逝的。
Certainly in the podcast space, we like to think that the information on this podcast will-
当然，在播客领域，我们认为该播客上的信息将-
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Evergreen
长青
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
archival, and we can update it over time.
存档，我们可以随着时间的推移进行更新。
And that actually brings me to the very specific question, which is about AI.
这实际上让我想到了一个非常具体的问题，即关于人工智能的问题。
With AI, web searches are now changing fundamentally.
借助人工智能，网络搜索正在发生根本性变化。
You're no longer being brought to a site that is just a designated site.
您将不再被带到只是指定站点的站点。
You're getting information back that's the amalgam of a lot of information funneled through, presumably, the large language models are changing all the time, but funneled through your search behavior, your preferences, et cetera.
你得到的信息是大量信息的混合体，大概是通过大型语言模型一直在变化，但通过你的搜索行为、你的偏好等漏斗的。
So web searches are no longer just site destination journeys.
因此网络搜索不再只是网站目的地旅程。
They are recipes of information that are filtered and combined and given back to us, which makes me think that maybe AI can provide a kind of pseudo self that is wiser than ourselves in any moment, or potentially wiser than we are in any moment, because it can access information that is not dependent on bodily state shifts.
它们是经过过滤、组合并反馈给我们的信息配方，这让我认为人工智能也许可以提供一种伪自我，它在任何时候都比我们自己更聪明，或者可能在任何时候都比我们更聪明，因为它可以访问不依赖于身体状态变化的信息。
At 2:30 in the morning, 3:30 in the morning, a small problem can seem huge, and a huge problem can seem absolutely overwhelming.
凌晨2点30分、凌晨3点30分，一个小问题可能看起来很大，而一个大问题可能看起来绝对压倒性的。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Just crushing us.
简直就是压垮我们。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
At 7:00 a.m., it's different.
早上7:00，情况就不一样了。
When we search on the web now, how to get through bankruptcy, let's say somebody's dealing with bankruptcy.
当我们现在在网上搜索如何度过破产危机时，假设有人正在破产。
There's information to go to, but with AI, it can give you the information in the form and from the sources that are most meaningful to you, and even if it's 2:30 in the morning for you, the AI is fresh.
有信息可查，但有了AI，它可以以对你来说最有意义的形式和来源提供信息，即使对你来说是凌晨2:30，AI也是新鲜的。
It doesn't need to sleep.
它不需要睡觉。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That seems to me like a distinct advantage over our own minds, and I know AI is controversial.
在我看来，这比我们自己的思维有明显的优势，而且我知道人工智能是有争议的。
Is it going to get smarter than us?
它会变得比我们更聪明吗？
Is it going to tell us to go do bad things?
难道它是要叫我们去做坏事吗？
This kind of thing.
这种事。
Okay, that's a whole different discussion, but it seems to me that AI could be pretty good, maybe even terrific, at helping us resolve problems because it doesn't have these state shifts, and it's really tailored to us.
好吧，这是一个完全不同的讨论，但在我看来，人工智能在帮助我们解决问题方面可能非常好，甚至可能很棒，因为它没有这些状态转变，而且它真的是为我们量身定制的。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Well, it can be, and AI, I think of it as a new tool that has amazing potential, and I actually think it has the potential to help us advance on a problem where psychologists like myself currently find ourself fixed.
嗯，它可以，而人工智能，我认为它是一种具有惊人潜力的新工具，而且我实际上认为它有潜力帮助我们解决像我这样的心理学家目前发现自己已经解决的问题。
So if I look back at the last 20, 30 years of research on emotion regulation, I'm talking here not just about managing chatter, but managing the whole suite of unwanted emotional states that we might encounter in our lives.
因此，如果我回顾过去 20、30 年的情绪调节研究，我在这里谈论的不仅仅是管理喋喋不休，而是管理我们在生活中可能遇到的一整套不想要的情绪状态。
What I can do is I can point to several individual tools that are empirically supported, science-based tools, and scientists have done a really good job profiling how these individual tools work.
我能做的是，我可以指出几个单独的工具，这些工具是有经验支持的、基于科学的工具，科学家们在分析这些单独的工具如何工作方面做得非常好。
Mechanistically, they've often gone down to the brain level.
从机制上讲，它们通常已经深入到大脑层面。
They've looked at them in intervention context, and everything in between.
他们在干预背景以及介于两者之间的一切背景下研究了它们。
So we have a pretty good sense of how individual tools work.
因此，我们对各个工具的工作原理有很好的了解。
But what we are now learning is individual tools are not the name of the game, because we are often doing multiple things to manage our emotions, and the combinations of tools we use within people, they often vary across situations in ways that we don't completely understand, and there's variability between people as well.
但我们现在了解到的是，单个工具并不是游戏的名称，因为我们经常做多种事情来管理我们的情绪，而我们在人们内部使用的工具组合，它们通常会因情况而以我们不完全理解的方式变化，而且人与人之间也存在差异。
So the blends or cocktails of tools that are most beneficial to us remain to be illuminated.
因此，对我们最有利的工具组合或鸡尾酒仍有待阐明。
So if someone comes to me with a problem, I can go through all the tools in the toolbox.
因此，如果有人向我提出问题，我可以使用工具箱中的所有工具。
What I can't do is I can't prescribe combinations of tools and say, "Hey, for the kinds of problems that you are experiencing and the kind of person that you are, here are the four things that you should do.
我不能做的是，我不能规定工具的组合，然后说：“嘿，对于你正在经历的问题类型和你是什么样的人，这里是你应该做的四件事。
But that person over there, they should do these six things." I think AI has the potential, with the right inputs, to help us learn about those patterns that explain how to optimize emotion regulation on an individual basis, and that is a remarkably tantalizing possibility for that technology.
但那边那个人，应该做这六件事。”我认为人工智能有潜力，通过正确的输入，帮助我们了解那些解释如何在个人基础上优化情绪调节的模式，这对于该技术来说是一个非常诱人的可能性。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You mentioned you have kids.
你提到你有孩子。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
When my sister, who's three years older than I am, was a kid, my dad tells this story that she had an imaginary friend, Larry.
当我比我大三岁的姐姐还是个孩子的时候，我爸爸给我讲了这样一个故事：她有一个想象中的朋友，拉里。
Larry was a girl, lived in a purple house.
拉里是一个女孩，住在一所紫色的房子里。
This imaginary friend, Larry, had all the components of a child's mind that was unrestricted by all the barriers of naming and things like that.
这个想象中的朋友，拉里，拥有孩子思想的所有组成部分，不受命名之类的所有障碍的限制。
And my dad said that my sister used to play with Larry in her room for hours, just talking to Larry and with her dollhouses and her toys and her things and doing...
我爸爸说我姐姐过去常常和拉里在她的房间里玩几个小时，只是和拉里说话，和她的玩具屋、她的玩具和她的东西一起做……
And then one day, my dad, he loves this story.
然后有一天，我爸爸喜欢这个故事。
I don't know why he loves this story in particular, but he was standing outside her door, and she was playing with Larry, her imaginary friend, talking to Larry, and then she stopped and turned around, and he said, "How's Larry?" And she said, "Larry's dead."
我不知道他为什么特别喜欢这个故事，但他站在她的门外，她正在和她想象中的朋友拉里玩耍，和拉里说话，然后她停下来转过身来，他说：“拉里怎么样？”她说：“拉里死了。”
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And she never talked about Larry again.
她再也没有提起过拉里。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Like it was this sort of collision between fantasy life and real world-
就像是这种幻想生活与现实世界的碰撞——
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
this is how I interpret it, and that was it.
这就是我的解释，就是这样。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Larry was done.
拉里完成了。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Poor Larry.
可怜的拉里。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Poor Larry.
可怜的拉里。
Well, maybe it was time.
好吧，也许是时候了。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
She was maybe going to be seven soon, and maybe it served her well.
她可能很快就七岁了，也许这对她很有好处。
So I've always wanted to ask somebody this question, and I think you are the person to ask this question.
所以我一直想问某人这个问题，我认为你就是问这个问题的人。
Are imaginary friends common in children?
想象中的朋友在儿童中常见吗？
And are imaginary friends the primordial form of our internal dialogue with ourself?
想象中的朋友是我们与自己进行内部对话的原始形式吗？
Just fascinated by and-
只是着迷于和-
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
It's a-
这是一个——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Are there some adults who maintain imaginary friends?
有没有一些成年人维持着想象中的朋友？
And I'll set an additional context-
我将设置一个额外的上下文 -
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
which will be especially relevant to the listeners of this podcast, which was in the very seat that you're sitting about this time last year, David Goggins was here, and he was talking about how he pushes himself through tremendously hard things.
这与这个播客的听众特别相关，去年这个时候，大卫·戈金斯就坐在你坐的那个位置上，他正在谈论他如何推动自己度过极其艰难的事情。
And during that discussion, it became very clear that David has an array of different voices that are all him, but that serve different roles.
在那次讨论中，很明显大卫有一系列不同的声音，这些声音都是他自己，但扮演着不同的角色。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it was a remarkable thing to hear him articulate that because to those of us on the outside, we observe it as one person, but he's constructed an elaborate inner world to be able to-
听到他清楚地表达这是一件了不起的事情，因为对于我们这些局外人来说，我们是作为一个人来观察它的，但他构建了一个复杂的内心世界，以便能够——
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
equip himself to do the things he does.
装备自己去做他所做的事情。
And I just have to wonder whether or not this whole thing of imaginary friends, provided it doesn't take us into the realm of psychosis and delusion, could actually be useful.
我只是想知道，假想朋友的整个事情是否真的有用，只要它不会把我们带入精神病和妄想的领域。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Isn't it remarkable that this is such a common human experience, and for most people, they never talk about this with anyone else because this is such a private experience.
这是一种如此常见的人类经历，这不是很值得注意吗？对于大多数人来说，他们从不与其他人谈论这件事，因为这是一种私人经历。
So I often start presentations with a quote from Rafael Nadal, the tennis great, him answering a question about what's the hardest thing that he struggles with, and he says, "It's managing the voices," plural, "in my head." And then I go to the audience, and I say, "Hey, what do you do if someone comes up to you at a party and says they're struggling with the voices inside their head?" Right?
因此，我经常引用网球巨星拉斐尔·纳达尔（Rafael Nadal）的一句话来开始演讲，他回答了一个关于他遇到的最困难的事情是什么的问题，他说，“这是管理声音，”复数，“在我的脑海里”。然后我走向观众，我说，“嘿，如果有人在聚会上向你走来，说他们正在与脑海中的声音作斗争，你会怎么做？”正确的？
That is typically a warning sign that maybe something is awry here and someone needs support.
这通常是一个警告信号，表明这里可能出了问题，有人需要支持。
Yet, this is a very common feature of the human experience that we just never really touch on.
然而，这是人类经验的一个非常普遍的特征，我们却从未真正触及过。
So to answer your question, is it common for kids to have imaginary friends and maybe talk to themselves?
那么，回答你的问题，孩子们拥有想象中的朋友并且可能自言自语是否很常见？
Yes.
是的。
I believe this is called the study of pretense.
我相信这就是所谓的假装研究。
According to one famous Soviet psychologist named Lev Vygotsky, one of the ways self-control is first learned is actually through self-talk.
根据一位名叫列夫·维果茨基（Lev Vygotsky）的著名苏联心理学家的说法，首先学会自我控制的方法之一实际上是通过自言自语。
And so what happens is, you as a child will hear your parents telling you to do things.
所以发生的事情是，作为一个孩子，你会听到父母告诉你去做事。
"Andrew, you should do this," or, "Don't do that," and, "Sit this way and not that way." And then what children will often do is go off on their own, and they will repeat those kinds of messages out loud to themselves.
“安德鲁，你应该这样做，”或者，“不要那样做”，以及“坐这边，而不是那边。”然后孩子们经常会做的就是自己走开，他们会大声对自己重复这些信息。
And so if you've ever been around young kids, you've probably seen them talking out loud to themselves or playing with dolls and, "No, Jimmy shouldn't do this.
因此，如果您曾经和小孩子在一起，您可能会看到他们大声自言自语或玩洋娃娃，并且“不，吉米不应该这样做。
Jimmy should do that." Some kids do it in the form not with an actual toy, but they have an imaginary friend in their mind that they are engaging with these different interactions.
吉米应该这么做。”有些孩子不是用真正的玩具来做到这一点，但他们心中有一个想象中的朋友，他们正在参与这些不同的互动。
And what the kids are doing in those contexts, according to this idea, is they're practicing self-control.
根据这个想法，孩子们在这种情况下所做的就是练习自我控制。
They are repeating the things, the messages that their caretakers have told to them.
他们正在重复他们的看护者告诉他们的事情和信息。
They are reinforcing it in those ways.
他们正在以这些方式加强它。
And then as time goes on, and your sister demonstrated this, that outer voice becomes our inner voice, and we have the capacity to recruit that inner voice then throughout our lives.
然后随着时间的推移，你的姐姐证明了这一点，外部的声音变成了我们内心的声音，我们有能力在我们的一生中招募内心的声音。
But it is interesting that during moments of extreme stress, many people sometimes report actually talking to themselves out loud.
但有趣的是，在极度压力的时刻，许多人有时会大声自言自语。
There's very little research on this, and a lot of this is anecdotal, but when speaking to a lot of individuals, they say, "Yeah, sometimes I will actually just start talking to myself out loud, and I thought something was wrong with me, and it's always when I'm struggling with a major stressor." So if we go back to reviewer number two in the academic world, I remember once I wrote this invited article, and a reviewer did not say very nice things to me in this response.
这方面的研究很少，而且很多都是轶事，但当与很多人交谈时，他们说，“是的，有时我实际上会开始大声自言自语，我认为我出了什么问题，而且总是在我与重大压力源作斗争时。”因此，如果我们回到学术界的第二号审稿人，我记得有一次我写了这篇受邀文章，审稿人在这篇回复中并没有对我说很好的话。
And I remember just walking.
我记得只是走路。
It was so offensive.
这太令人反感了。
I remember walking around the neighborhood, and I was, "Why don't you say that to my face?" And I was just repeating what they said, and I was rehearsing it.
我记得在附近散步时，我就想：“你为什么不在我面前这么说呢？”我只是重复他们所说的话，并且正在排练。
I was getting more and more upset and then ultimately working through it.
我变得越来越心烦意乱，最终还是克服了它。
But it almost seems like in real moments of stress, we revert back to this very primordial way of regulating ourselves that we first exercised when we were kids, which is this self-talk.
但似乎在真正的压力时刻，我们又回到了我们小时候第一次锻炼的这种非常原始的自我调节方式，这就是自言自语。
And so David has become exceptionally skilled at harnessing different voices, according to you, to manage the challenges that he is facing.
因此，根据您的说法，大卫非常擅长利用不同的声音来应对他所面临的挑战。
I've heard David talk on a number of occasions, and I think there is another important point to bring up here, which is I'm pretty sure that when David is activating different voices, they are not always a very gentle voice that is encouraging him to take it easy and be kind to himself.
我在很多场合听过大卫的讲话，我认为这里还有一个重要的观点要提出，那就是我很确定当大卫激活不同的声音时，这些声音并不总是非常温和的声音，鼓励他放轻松并善待自己。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, quite the opposite.
不，恰恰相反。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Sometimes, yes.
有时，是的。
And sometimes, this is important Because negative self-talk is often equated with harmful outcomes.
有时，这很重要，因为消极的自言自语通常等同于有害的结果。
Negative emotions are functional when they're activated in the right proportions.
当负面情绪以正确的比例被激活时，它们就会发挥作用。
Sometimes being firm with yourself can be quite effective.
有时对自己坚定是非常有效的。
So if I go to when I'm exercising, and I'm doing classes sometimes where coaches are telling me to do really painful things, sometimes I'm pretty tough on myself.
因此，如果我去锻炼时，有时在上课时教练会告诉我做一些非常痛苦的事情，有时我对自己非常严厉。
I'm channeling my high school wrestling coach who was really hard on me.
我正在向我的高中摔跤教练求助，他对我非常严厉。
"You better shape up.
“你最好调整一下体型。
You can't wimp out here." That serves a motivating function for me there.
你不能在这里懦弱。”这对我来说具有激励作用。
So if we're recruiting some negative voices, that isn't bad per se.
因此，如果我们吸收一些负面声音，这本身并不坏。
What is bad is if we start looping.
糟糕的是如果我们开始循环。
That is what we really want to equate with chatter.
这就是我们真正想要等同于喋喋不休的东西。
It's getting stuck in those thought loops.
它陷入了那些思维循环中。
That's when things get harmful, when those negative emotions are tweaked too intensely or for too long.
当这些负面情绪被过度强烈或持续太长时间时，事情就会变得有害。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
A couple of times we've talked about the relationship between physical activities and mental activities.
我们有几次讨论过身体活动和心理活动之间的关系。
In particular, taking a walk, going into green spaces, and I was delighted to hear when you said that there's a vast literature supporting the use of green spaces-
特别是散步，进入绿色空间，我很高兴听到你说有大量文献支持使用绿色空间——
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
for calming ourselves.
为了让我们自己平静下来。
Is that essentially what the data show?
数据本质上就是这样吗？
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Well, it goes a little bit beyond even just calming.
嗯，它的作用甚至超出了平静的范围。
So yes, there is data linking going for a walk in a beautiful setting with feeling better.
所以，是的，有数据表明在美丽的环境中散步会感觉更好。
But scientists have actually gone even deeper to understand the various mechanisms through which interacting with green spaces and other kinds of environments can help us.
但实际上，科学家们已经更深入地了解了与绿色空间和其他环境相互作用可以帮助我们的各种机制。
And so there are two major pathways that I often talk about.
因此，我经常谈论两条主要途径。
One is interacting with a green space can be cognitively restorative.
与绿色空间互动可以恢复认知。
So as we talked about earlier, when people get stuck experiencing chatter or other kinds of big emotions, our attention often fixates on the problem at hand.
正如我们之前谈到的，当人们陷入喋喋不休或其他类型的重大情绪时，我们的注意力通常会集中在手头的问题上。
We focus really hard in trying to work through the problem, and that can drain us of our precious attentional resources.
我们非常努力地试图解决问题，但这可能会耗尽我们宝贵的注意力资源。
Well, when you go for a walk in a safe, natural setting, you're surrounded by interesting cues that capture your attention in a very gentle way.
好吧，当您在安全、自然的环境中散步时，您会被有趣的线索所包围，这些线索会以非常温和的方式吸引您的注意力。
So I'm talking about the flowers and the trees, the scents, the sounds.
所以我谈论的是花朵和树木、气味和声音。
Our attention often drifts onto those features of our environment.
我们的注意力常常会转移到环境的这些特征上。
Now, most of us are not doing the equivalent of carrying a magnifying glass and studying the geometrical structure of the leaves and the flowers, right?
现在，我们大多数人并没有做相当于携带放大镜并研究叶子和花朵的几何结构的事情，对吗？
We're just kind of taking it in.
我们只是接受它。
But the surroundings are sufficiently intriguing to capture, to grasp our attention, and that gives us this opportunity to restore that precious commodity.
但周围的环境足以吸引我们的注意力，这给了我们机会来恢复这种珍贵的商品。
So there's a lot of work showing that going for a walk in a safe, natural setting can be cognitively restorative.
因此，大量研究表明，在安全、自然的环境中散步可以恢复认知。
That's another feature or another mechanism through which nature exposure can help us.
这是接触大自然可以帮助我们的另一个特征或机制。
The other pathway that I just find so cool from a research point of view, going for walks in natural settings often elicit the emotion of awe, which is an emotion we experience when we're in the presence of something vast and indescribable, something that just feels bigger than ourselves.
从研究的角度来看，我觉得很酷的另一条途径是，在自然环境中散步通常会引发敬畏情绪，这是当我们面对巨大而难以形容的事物时所经历的一种情绪，这些事物感觉比我们自己还要大。
So in the arboretum near my house, there are these trees that have been there for hundreds of years, and you look up at these trees and you think, "My God, you've been there way longer than me, and my parents, and my grandparents, and you probably will be there longer than all of my progeny." Wow, that just broadens my perspective.
所以在我家附近的植物园里，这些树已经存在了数百年，你抬头看着这些树，你会想，“天啊，你在那里的时间比我、我的父母和我的祖父母都长得多，而且你可能会比我所有的后代都在那里呆得更久。”哇，这拓宽了我的视野。
Or an amazing sunset.
或者令人惊叹的日落。
You can also experience this emotion through feats of innovation.
您还可以通过创新的壮举来体验这种情感。
So I'm a science geek, I guess you could say, and for me, the two biggest awe triggers are, number one, the images of the galaxy that the latest telescope produces, which if you follow this, some physicists have somehow figured out, engineers, how to take pictures of what the universe looked like billions of years ago.
所以我是一个科学极客，我想你可能会说，对我来说，两个最大的敬畏触发因素是，第一，最新望远镜产生的星系图像，如果你遵循这一点，一些物理学家、工程师已经以某种方式弄清楚了如何拍摄数十亿年前宇宙的样子。
Somehow, I don't understand the physics, we can see what it looked like this vast amount of time ago.
不知何故，我不懂物理，我们可以看到很久以前它的样子。
And we also, of course, have the equivalent of an SUV currently roaming on Mars, sending us back footage of that planet.
当然，我们也有相当于目前在火星上漫游的SUV，向我们发送该星球的镜头。
So when I think of that, we've actually landed a vehicle on another planet, this vastly expands.
所以当我想到这一点时，我们实际上已经在另一个星球上着陆了一个飞行器，这极大地扩展了。
I am filled with awe.
我心中充满了敬畏。
So when we are experiencing something vast and indescribable like that, this is the ultimate perspective broadener.
因此，当我们经历像这样巨大而难以形容的事情时，这是最终的视野拓宽者。
So it leads to what we call shrinking of the self.
所以这导致了我们所说的自我收缩。
We feel smaller when we're contemplating something vast and indescribable, and when we feel smaller, guess what else feels smaller?
当我们思考一些巨大而难以形容的事物时，我们会感觉自己很渺小，而当我们感觉自己很渺小时，猜猜还有什么感觉更小？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Problems.
问题。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Our problems.
我们的问题。
So this is an easy way of utilizing the world around you to powerfully manage your emotions.
因此，这是利用周围世界来有效管理情绪的简单方法。
And so what I love about that work is it highlights the fact that there are tools that are just hidden in plain sight.
所以我喜欢这项工作的原因是它强调了这样一个事实：有些工具只是隐藏在人们的视线中。
They're waiting to be harnessed, and if you know where to look, you can often find them.
它们正等待着被利用，如果你知道去哪里寻找，你经常可以找到它们。
And nature, by the way, isn't the only set of environmental tools that exist.
顺便说一句，自然并不是唯一存在的环境工具。
There are lots of ways that you can interact with your environment strategically to help you feel better.
您可以通过多种方式与环境进行策略性互动，以帮助您感觉更好。
We often develop attachments to places, for example.
例如，我们经常对地方产生依恋。
So you're probably familiar with the concept of attachment figures, so there are these figures from our childhood that we often, though not always, securely attach to.
所以你可能熟悉依恋人物的概念，所以我们经常（尽管并不总是）安全地依附于我们童年时期的这些人物。
They are a source of safety and comfort, and they serve a powerful regulatory role in our lives and our partners if we're in positive relationships, as I am.
它们是安全和舒适的源泉，如果我们像我一样处于积极的关系中，它们就会在我们的生活和我们的伴侣中发挥强大的调节作用。
Love you.
爱你。
That was to my wife.
那是给我妻子的。
She is an attachment figure for me Well, we also develop these associations with places, and so sometimes places can be the source of safety and comfort.
她对我来说是一个依恋对象。好吧，我们也与地方建立了这些联系，所以有时地方可以成为安全和舒适的源泉。
Going back to those places during times of distress can be really rejuvenating.
在困难时期回到那些地方确实可以让人恢复活力。
I know one person who discovered that there was infidelity in his relationship, and what really helped him get a grip on the situation was going back to his childhood home and sleeping in his bedroom at home.
我认识一个人，他发现自己的关系中存在不忠，真正帮助他控制局面的方法是回到童年的家，睡在家里的卧室里。
That was the turning point that allowed him to reroute his ability to navigate his life.
那是一个转折点，使他能够重新调整自己驾驭生活的能力。
That's an example of the power of places to affect us.
这是地方影响我们的力量的一个例子。
So how many times do we think about, "Hey, what are the places that are my emotional oases, if you will, that I can go to when I need it?" We can also structure our environments.
那么，我们有多少次会想，“嘿，如果你愿意的话，哪些地方是我的情感绿洲，当我需要的时候我可以去？”我们还可以构建我们的环境。
You and I are both talking right now across the table from one another.
你和我现在正在桌子对面交谈。
We don't have our cell phones out on the table.
我们没有把手机放在桌子上。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No. For me, not even in the room.
不，对我来说，甚至在房间里也不行。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Not in the room for me either.
也不在我的房间里。
If we did, and we had it facing up, we would be distracted, would we not?
如果我们这样做了，而且我们把它正面朝上，我们就会分心，不是吗？
Without question.
毫无疑问。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
And even facing down, I think there's some literature on this, right?
即使面朝下，我想也有一些相关的文献，对吧？
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Still a cue.
还是一个提示。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
It's still an emotional cue.
这仍然是一种情感暗示。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There's a cognitive tether, because the thing signals a particular-
存在认知系链，因为该事物发出特定的信号——
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Reward
奖励
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
a particular reward, and a particular set of behaviors.
特定的奖励和一组特定的行为。
Right?
正确的？
Just like a pen, there are probably many things you could do with a pen, but typically one.
就像一支笔一样，你可以用一支笔做很多事情，但通常只有一个。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
This is not John Wick here.
这里不是约翰威克。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right, exactly.
对，完全正确。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
There's one thing that we're talking about.
我们正在谈论一件事。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Exactly.
正是如此。
We're not getting-
我们没有得到-
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
innovative here with these objects.
这些物品在这里具有创新性。
But right, when the phone is present, even if it's face down, it cues the opportunity to make a call, receive a text, look on social media-
但是，当手机出现时，即使它正面朝下，它也会提示您有机会拨打电话、接收短信、查看社交媒体——
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
That's right
没错
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
scroll the internet-
滚动互联网-
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
And so-
所以——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
find out what's happened today
了解今天发生了什么
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
...
...
and so by leaving our phones outside of the space, we are managing our emotions in a very blunt and effective way.
因此，通过将手机放在该空间之外，我们可以以一种非常直率且有效的方式管理我们的情绪。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
When laptop screens are open in my seminars, I know that I've already lost the battle, because I know the object, the stimulus, is so tempting, even if I'm the most captivating professor in the world, which I am not.
当笔记本电脑屏幕在我的研讨会上打开时，我知道我已经输掉了这场战斗，因为我知道这个对象、刺激是如此诱人，即使我是世界上最有魅力的教授，但我不是。
I aspire to be captivating, but I know that I'm always going to lose compared to the screen, the email.
我渴望变得迷人，但我知道与屏幕、电子邮件相比，我总是会失败。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do you ask them to close their laptops?
您是否要求他们关闭笔记本电脑？
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
I ask them to, yeah.
我要求他们这样做，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You do.
你会的。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
No laptops in my class.
我的班级没有笔记本电脑。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wow.
哇。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
How is that received?
是如何收到的？
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
So far so good.
到目前为止一切顺利。
I actually explain to them the science behind this.
我实际上向他们解释了这背后的科学原理。
I explain why I'm doing this, and I say that, "Hey, if I have my laptop open and I'm in your shoes, this is a divided attention task.
我解释了为什么我要这样做，然后我说，“嘿，如果我打开笔记本电脑并且我站在你的立场上，这就是一个分散注意力的任务。
I'm not able to focus as well as if I don't have it open." And in the courses that I teach, it's more about discussion and thinking through things, so they don't really have a need to type notes for exams, which I think makes it easier for me.
如果我不打开它，我就无法集中注意力。”在我教授的课程中，更多的是讨论和思考问题，所以他们实际上不需要为考试打笔记，我认为这对我来说更容易。
But modifying our spaces really strategically, this is another valuable tool in our toolbox.
但真正战略性地改变我们的空间，这是我们工具箱中的另一个有价值的工具。
Like when we have people over for football watching parties, let's say.
比方说，就像我们邀请人们来参加足球比赛聚会一样。
It's pretty common where I come from in Ann Arbor.
我来自安娜堡，这很常见。
And my favorite food in the world is pizza, and we have this wonderful New York City-style pizza place in Ann Arbor now.
我在世界上最喜欢的食物是披萨，我们现在在安娜堡有这家很棒的纽约风格的披萨店。
I will order vast amounts of it, much more than we need, and when the game is over, I will insist that everyone take it with them, because I know if it is in the refrigerator, and I open the refrigerator later that night to just get some water, if I see the pizza box, the cue, it will elicit a emotional response, this desire, this appetitive response to consume the pizza, which is not the goal that I have from either a fitness or emotion regulatory point of view.
我会订购大量的，比我们需要的多得多，当比赛结束时，我会坚持让每个人都带着它，因为我知道它是否在冰箱里，那天晚上我打开冰箱只是为了喝点水，如果我看到披萨盒，提示，它会引起情绪反应，这种欲望，这种吃披萨的食欲反应，从健身或情绪调节的角度来看，这都不是我的目标。
So I am structuring my spaces strategically all the time to give me the best chance of being successful at meeting my regulatory goals.
因此，我一直在战略性地构建我的空间，以便为我提供成功实现监管目标的最佳机会。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm so glad you brought up pizza, and New York pizza, and the fact that you're from New York.
我很高兴你提到了披萨，纽约披萨，而且你来自纽约。
Here's why.
原因如下。
And again, I give a personal example only as a template for people to think about themselves.
再次强调，我举的个人例子只是作为人们思考自己的模板。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Either where it matches or doesn't match what I'm about to ask.
要么与我要问的内容匹配，要么不匹配。
I love being in nature.
我喜欢身处大自然中。
I love being up in Yosemite, in rural areas, and at the coast.
我喜欢在优胜美地、乡村地区和海岸。
I just love being in nature and the quiet of nature.
我只是喜欢在大自然中和大自然的安静。
I find my mind slows, and my thoughts, and my emotions enter a pace that just is very soothing.
我发现我的思维变慢了，我的思想和情绪进入了一种非常舒缓的节奏。
I also love being in New York City.
我也喜欢在纽约市。
I was first in New York City when I was about five or six years old, and I remember telling my dad, who's from another big city, Buenos Aires, I remember telling him, "I can't believe this exists.
我第一次来到纽约是在我五六岁的时候，我记得告诉我的父亲，他来自另一个大城市布宜诺斯艾利斯，我记得告诉他，“我不敢相信这存在。
Can we come back here?"
我们可以回到这里吗？”
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I swore that I would go back as many times as I possibly could, and I love going to New York City.
我发誓我会尽可能多地回去，而且我喜欢去纽约。
Despite it having many problems, it's still a wonderful city.
尽管存在许多问题，但它仍然是一座美妙的城市。
When I'm in New York, there's tons of activity, there's tons of stimuli.
当我在纽约时，那里有大量的活动，有大量的刺激。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I also find that my mind achieves that slowed pace.
我还发现我的思维速度也放慢了。
Another parallel construction here, and then I'll wage the specific question.
这里是另一个并行结构，然后我将提出具体问题。
I've worked with professors, my postdoc advisor, for instance, and my graduate advisor, who worked extremely effectively.
我曾与教授、我的博士后导师和我的研究生导师一起工作，他们的工作非常有效。
These are hyper-focused, unfortunately, both of them have passed, but hyper-focused, brilliant people.
这些都是高度专注的人，不幸的是，他们俩都已经过去了，但都是高度专注的、才华横溢的人。
Truly brilliant.
真是太棒了。
And their offices were a complete disaster.
他们的办公室简直就是一场灾难。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And we'd say, "Ben, you need to clean your office." And he would say, "No, no, no, don't move anything, otherwise I won't know where anything is." And I'm like, "How can you know where anything is?
我们会说，“本，你需要打扫你的办公室。”他会说：“不，不，不，不要动任何东西，否则我不知道东西在哪里。”我想，“你怎么知道东西在哪里？
It looks like an earthquake hit yesterday." And he goes, "Don't touch anything." And he could find things in this dizzyingly messy environment.
看起来就像昨天发生了地震。”他说：“不要碰任何东西。”而且他还能在这令人眼花缭乱的杂乱环境中找到东西。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
He was the stereotype of the professor sitting hunched over at his keyboard at 2:00 in the morning, because at that time I worked really late.
他是人们对凌晨 2:00 弓着背坐在键盘前的教授的刻板印象，因为那时我工作得很晚。
You'd go into Ben's office and you're like, "Hey." Organized thinking amidst chaos.
你走进本的办公室，你会说：“嘿。”在混乱中组织思维。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And the New York example would be the parallel.
纽约的例子也是类似的。
And at the other extreme, nature also seems to bring this about.
而在另一个极端，大自然似乎也促成了这一点。
So two specific questions.
所以有两个具体问题。
Is there a continuum of, let's say daytime, let's forget about middle of the night, of daytime kind of default levels of chatter?
是否存在连续的，比如说白天，让我们忘记半夜，白天的默认聊天级别？
I think of this as kind of RPM in a car.
我认为这就像汽车的转速。
Like how is the car idling?
比如汽车怠速如何？
Like when you turn on the car, you just sit there, like if the transmission's working well and everything's working well, it's like
就像当你打开汽车时，你只是坐在那里，如果变速箱工作良好并且一切都工作良好，就像
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hums at a nice...
哼哼一个不错的...
It's not redlining.
这不是红线。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Some people seem to be redlining all the time.
有些人似乎一直在红线。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And they calm down in cluttered environments.
他们在杂乱的环境中平静下来。
So how much do we have a kind of a set point, a chatter set point, assuming everything else equal, well-rested, et cetera.
那么，假设其他条件相同、休息良好等等，我们有多少一种设定点，一个颤振设定点。
And then why is it that external environment matching our internal chatter somehow can adjust that internal set point, it seems?
那么，为什么与我们内部喋喋不休相匹配的外部环境可以以某种方式调整内部设定点呢？
I realize this is very abstract, but for me it's very useful to think about where my mind goes into its most pleasant and effective states.
我意识到这非常抽象，但对我来说，思考我的思维在哪里进入最愉快和最有效的状态非常有用。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Your example of your advisors resonates so strongly with myself.
你的顾问的例子与我产生了强烈的共鸣。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is your office a mess?
你的办公室很乱吗？
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Well, it entirely depends on my mental state.
嗯，这完全取决于我的精神状态。
And prior to really getting involved in this space, I had no insight into why sometimes my office was a total mess and sometimes it is spick-and-span, unbelievably organized, and clean.
在真正涉足这个领域之前，我不明白为什么有时我的办公室一团糟，有时却整洁有序、干净得令人难以置信。
And so let me share with you some of the research in this space, because I think it'll bear on this question you're asking.
因此，让我与您分享这个领域的一些研究，因为我认为这与您提出的问题有关。
A lot of people find that when they are experiencing chatter, they reflexively start organizing their spaces.
很多人发现，当他们在聊天时，他们会条件反射地开始组织自己的空间。
So I'm a great example of this.
所以我就是一个很好的例子。
My entire life, if we called my mother up right now, please let's not do it, but if we did, she could attest to the fact that there would always be a trail of towels and clothing from the bathroom to my bedroom and all over the place.
在我的一生中，如果我们现在打电话给我母亲，请不要这样做，但如果我们这样做，她可以证明这样一个事实：从浴室到我的卧室以及到处都是毛巾和衣服的痕迹。
And my office is similar.
我的办公室也类似。
Piles of papers and books, and that's when life is good.
成堆的文件和书籍，这就是生活的美好。
I'm kind of free-flowing, I'm getting in there, I'm being creative, I'm generating ideas, and I'm not really worried about everything around me.
我很自由，我很投入，我很有创造力，我正在产生想法，而且我并不真正担心周围的一切。
In fact, I'm really good at typically tuning out my surroundings to focus in on the task at hand.
事实上，我非常擅长调整周围的环境，专注于手头的任务。
I can work in a coffee shop.
我可以在咖啡店工作。
I can work almost anywhere.
我几乎可以在任何地方工作。
And I love it.
我喜欢它。
When I'm experiencing chatter, though, and this is true from the time I was little, I would always start putting things away.
不过，当我经历喋喋不休的时候，从我小时候开始就是如此，我总是会开始收拾东西。
I would always start organizing things, making them nice and tidy.
我总是会开始整理东西，让它们变得漂亮整洁。
My office is always spotless.
我的办公室总是一尘不染。
Sometimes I even take it further presently, when I'm experiencing chatter, I clean up my office, then I go into the kitchen and I make sure that's nice and tidy.
有时我什至会更进一步，当我遇到喋喋不休的时候，我会清理我的办公室，然后我走进厨房，确保那里干净整洁。
And if it's really bad, I'll clean up my kids' rooms and things like that.
如果情况真的很糟糕，我会清理孩子的房间之类的。
This is a very common experience.
这是一种非常常见的经历。
When you're experiencing chatter, you don't feel like you are in control.
当你在喋喋不休时，你会觉得自己无法控制。
You're not in the driver's seat.
你不在驾驶座上。
The thoughts and feelings are taking over, and they're pushing you in directions and into places that you don't want to be.
这些想法和感觉正在占据主导地位，它们将你推向你不想去的方向和地方。
It's an aversive state, and it's chronically activated for a lot of people.
这是一种令人厌恶的状态，并且对很多人来说都是长期激活的。
Human beings, in general, we crave control.
总的来说，人类渴望控制。
We like to know that the world is orderly and predictable.
我们想知道世界是有序且可预测的。
There's survival value that that communicates to us, right?
这向我们传达了生存价值，对吧？
If we know things are certain and proceeding in a predictable way.
如果我们知道事情是确定的并且以可预测的方式进行。
Creating order around us compensates for the lack of order and control we feel inside.
在我们周围创造秩序可以弥补我们内心缺乏秩序和控制的情况。
It's called compensatory control.
这就是所谓的补偿控制。
And this is the explanation that is often provided for why so many of us augment our spaces to counteract, in this case, our emotional state.
这就是为什么我们中的许多人会扩大自己的空间来抵消（在这种情况下）我们的情绪状态的原因。
And so I don't know if that perfectly answers your question, but it, for me, highlights the way that we are tightly tethered to our surroundings in some circumstances.
所以我不知道这是否完美地回答了你的问题，但对我来说，它突显了我们在某些情况下与周围环境紧密相连的方式。
When I'm not experiencing chatter, it really doesn't matter if the place is nice and tidy versus not.
当我没有遇到闲聊时，这个地方是否漂亮整洁并不重要。
Like no big deal.
好像没什么大不了的。
But when I'm motivated to think, feel, and behave in a particular way, then my circumstances are becoming more important.
但当我有动力以某种特定的方式思考、感受和行为时，我的处境就变得更加重要。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I mean, the military is a very salient example where people-
我的意思是，军队是一个非常突出的例子，人们——
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
It's a great example
这是一个很好的例子
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
have to have their kit in order-
必须整理好他们的工具包-
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in order to essentially be able to proceed with-
为了基本上能够继续进行-
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
the job, right?
工作，对吧？
And people can say what they will about the military, but the structure and the hierarchy of the military has provided structure and an order for people to, essentially, go from a chaotic life to a structured life.
人们可以对军队发表自己的看法，但军队的结构和等级制度为人们从本质上从混乱的生活转变为结构化的生活提供了结构和秩序。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it's an extreme example, but having everything squared away is one of those things.
这是一个极端的例子，但让一切都摆正就是其中之一。
I got certified to scuba dive a few years ago, and it occurred to me early on in the first dives that if your kit isn't squared away and you don't have everything worked out, things can go badly wrong, and the severity of the potential consequences, or the potential severity of the consequences, I suppose is the right way to say it, is a good reminder to have everything in check.
几年前，我获得了水肺潜水认证，在第一次潜水的早期，我就意识到，如果你的装备没有准备好，而且你没有把所有的东西都准备好，事情可能会变得很糟糕，而潜在后果的严重性，或者后果的潜在严重性，我想这是正确的说法，这是一个很好的提醒，要检查一切。
This isn't the kind of thing where you can afford to forget a piece of gear or to not check a valve or...
这不是那种你可以忘记一个齿轮或不检查阀门或......的事情。
It's potentially life or death.
这可能是生死攸关的事情。
And that serves an adaptive role.
这起到了适应性的作用。
It's kind of nice to have an activity, actually, where that's the case.
事实上，在这种情况下，开展一项活动真是太好了。
Whereas we get into our cars and we might pull out of the driveway and then go down the street, and now you see people texting and driving all the time.
当我们开车时，我们可能会把车开出车道，然后沿着街道走下去，但现在你会看到人们一直在开车发短信。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Although hopefully less as time goes on.
尽管希望随着时间的推移会减少。
And then you might put on your seatbelt a quarter mile down the road-
然后你可能会在行驶四分之一英里后系上安全带-
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
you might put it on first, right?
你可以先戴上它，对吗？
I always put mine on first when-
我总是先戴上我的，当-
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
when I remember.
当我记得的时候。
I'm sure now someone will catch me with my seatbelt off.
我确信现在有人会抓住我未系安全带的情况。
But I drive with a seatbelt.
但我开车是系安全带的。
And so on and so on.
等等等等。
The physical steps that we take to organize ourselves and the environment, and our relationship to the environment really do seem to change our brain into a different brain than were we to not do those things.
我们为组织自己和环境而采取的物理步骤，以及我们与环境的关系，确实似乎将我们的大脑变成了一个与我们不做这些事情时不同的大脑。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
The way I carve up the emotion regulation space is there are multiple shifters that exist.
我划分情绪调节空间的方式是存在多个转变器。
Some of those shifters are inside us.
其中一些转变者就在我们体内。
So there are these sensory shifters we talked about.
所以我们谈到了这些感官转变。
There are attentional shifters.
有注意力转移者。
We haven't gotten into that yet, but we can shine our mental spotlight on or away from things that are causing emotions, and we can be strategic in how we do that.
我们还没有深入探讨这一点，但我们可以将精神焦点集中在或远离引起情绪的事物，并且我们可以策略性地做到这一点。
There are perspective shifters, the way we think about our circumstances, reframing, distancing.
我们思考环境、重新构建、保持距离的方式会改变观点。
Those are all on the inside.
这些都在里面。
But then there are also shifters that exist outside of us in our relationships, how other people can push our emotions in different directions.
但在我们的人际关系中，我们之外也存在一些转变者，其他人如何将我们的情绪推向不同的方向。
Sometimes other people can be amazing assets, sometimes tremendous liabilities.
有时其他人可能是惊人的资产，有时却是巨大的负债。
There are physical shifters, like in our spaces, and we just talked about those.
就像我们的空间一样，有物理移位器，我们刚刚讨论过这些。
You can then go a layer out even further and talk about culture as a shifter.
然后你可以更进一步，把文化作为一个转变者来谈论。
People talk about culture as the air we breathe.
人们将文化视为我们呼吸的空气。
Right?
正确的？
We are in different cultures throughout our lives, and sometimes we move from one culture to another within the day.
我们一生都处于不同的文化中，有时我们会在一天之内从一种文化转移到另一种文化。
So, if you're going to your lab or you're on campus at Stanford, that's one very specific culture with certain values and norms and weird practices maybe.
所以，如果你要去你的实验室或者你在斯坦福大学的校园里，那是一种非常特殊的文化，有一定的价值观和规范，也许还有奇怪的做法。
That's no offense to Stanford, by the way.
顺便说一句，这并不是冒犯斯坦福大学。
That's more academics.
那就更学术了。
Academia has some weird practices.
学术界有一些奇怪的做法。
If you then go to your podcast community, right, the team in the studio that we're sitting here, there's a different culture that characterizes the way you function here.
如果你然后去你的播客社区，对吧，我们坐在这里的工作室团队，你会发现有一种不同的文化来描述你在这里的运作方式。
And those cultures that we are a part of, they powerfully shape our emotional lives.
我们所属的那些文化有力地塑造了我们的情感生活。
They influence what kinds of emotional experiences we value.
它们影响我们重视什么样的情感体验。
So what kinds of emotional experience are we motivated to have?
那么我们有动力去拥有什么样的情感体验呢？
They give us practices, rituals to meet those emotion regulatory goals that we have as well.
它们为我们提供了实践和仪式，以实现我们也拥有的情绪调节目标。
So that's another kind of influence that I don't think we often think about, but that is really quite powerful.
这是另一种影响，我认为我们不经常考虑，但它确实非常强大。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It brings me back again to the smartphone.
它让我再次回到智能手机。
The smartphone carries an infinite number of contexts into the different environments with us.
智能手机将无数的情境带入我们不同的环境中。
So we're on the train, but we could be paying attention to something overseas.
所以我们在火车上，但我们可能会关注海外的一些事情。
And I was on the plane this morning, and I just marveled at the number of screens-
今天早上我在飞机上，我对屏幕的数量感到惊讶——
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Mm
毫米
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
on this, frankly very densely packed plane.
在这架飞机上，坦率地说，非常拥挤。
It was like probably fourth grade when a kid brought in a little mini TV.
大概是四年级的时候，一个孩子带来了一台小电视。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I remember thinking, "Oh my goodness.
我记得我当时想：“天哪。
That's like a mini TV." It looked like a walkie-talkie, and the resolution was terrible, and of course, it was all black and white.
这就像一台迷你电视。”它看起来就像一个对讲机，分辨率很糟糕，当然，都是黑白的。
They had color TVs, by the way, when I was young.
顺便说一句，当我年轻的时候，他们有彩电。
It just hadn't made it to the mini TV.
它只是还没有出现在迷你电视上。
And we were basically walking around with little mini TVs all day.
我们基本上一整天都拿着小迷你电视到处走。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
With near infinite number of channels combined with texting, sharing.
拥有近乎无限数量的渠道与短信、共享相结合。
It's wild.
它很狂野。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Remarkable.
了不起。
It's science fiction if we were to turn back the clock to when we were kids to think about what we have in our pockets right now or on our wrists, or some people, the glasses that they are wearing.
如果我们把时间倒回小时候，想想我们现在口袋里、手腕上有什么，或者有些人戴的眼镜，那简直就是科幻小说。
We probably wouldn't have believed that this was possible when we were kids.
当我们还是孩子的时候，我们可能不会相信这是可能的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I agree.
我同意。
I agree.
我同意。
And I'm just struck by the fact that our brains can adapt to this.
我对我们的大脑能够适应这一事实感到震惊。
But I do think that most people probably wonder about what's the optimal way to live.
但我确实认为大多数人可能想知道什么是最佳的生活方式。
And the word optimal gets people a little triggered sometimes, believe it or not.
不管你信不信，“最佳”这个词有时会让人有点激动。
I'm not talking about what puts people into their best performance mode or this or that.
我不是在谈论什么使人们进入最佳表现模式或这样或那样。
I'm not talking about biohacking.
我不是在谈论生物黑客。
I'm referring to this age-old question, what is a good life?
我指的是这个古老的问题，什么是美好的生活？
And that's a completely different podcast that we should probably do at some point.
这是一个完全不同的播客，我们可能应该在某个时候做。
But it probably involves being able to pay attention to things and be present, but also let one's mind drift and be socially present and have relationships, and on and on.
但它可能涉及能够关注事物并处于当下，但也涉及到让一个人的思绪随波逐流、参与社交、建立人际关系等等。
Do you think that we are, in fact, more challenged nowadays in the default mode of so many contexts arriving with us in our pocket when we arrive in a situation?
您是否认为，事实上，当我们遇到某种情况时，我们会在这么多上下文的默认模式下面临更大的挑战？
Like you said, I've come to the studio, as long as my phone's face down or away from me, I'm in the studio.
就像你说的，我来到了录音室，只要我的手机朝下或者远离我，我就在录音室。
Otherwise, I've brought the whole world with me.
不然的话，我已经把整个世界都带走了。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah, this is a question that comes up quite a bit, and it's a really hard one to answer because we haven't, of course, been tracking people's chatter and emotion dysregulation levels over the centuries.
是的，这是一个经常出现的问题，而且确实很难回答，因为我们当然没有追踪人们几个世纪以来的喋喋不休和情绪失调水平。
I think it's absolutely true that we now have new forms of technology that are perennially now presenting us with challenges that we need to figure out how to overcome, but they are also providing us with opportunities.
我认为，毫无疑问，我们现在拥有新的技术形式，它们不断地给我们带来挑战，我们需要找出如何克服的挑战，但它们也为我们提供了机会。
So, to be clear, I think social media and technology can and does do a lot of harm, and I think it can and does do a lot of good for us as well.
因此，需要明确的是，我认为社交媒体和技术可以而且确实会造成很多伤害，但我认为它也可以而且确实为我们带来很多好处。
And the real challenge we face right now is figuring out how to navigate those digital technological landscapes.
我们现在面临的真正挑战是弄清楚如何驾驭这些数字技术领域。
And I think we probably jumped into them without a user guide too quickly, and we're only learning now, 15 years later, whatever the number is, that that was the case.
我认为我们可能在没有用户指南的情况下太快地投入其中，而且我们现在才知道，15 年后，无论数字是多少，情况就是如此。
But I don't know that I would...
但我不知道我会...
Well, I'll speak for myself.
好吧，我就为自己说话吧。
I think net positive, there's a lot of good that has come from these technologies.
我认为从积极的角度来看，这些技术带来了很多好处。
If we think back centuries ago, it's not clear to me that the world wasn't a challenging place either.
如果我们回想几个世纪前，我并不清楚这个世界也不是一个充满挑战的地方。
We used to get into fights and pull swords, and people would invade readily if you go back further.
以前我们打架拔刀，再往前走，人家就轻易入侵了。
There was the threat of illness, and we weren't living nearly as long.
我们面临着疾病的威胁，而我们的寿命已经不长了。
And so I think it's easy to also forget just how far we have come as a species.
所以我认为我们很容易忘记我们作为一个物种已经走了多远。
But, and this is, I think, a really important but, and I think about this often, the issues that we are talking about today on this podcast, this question of how we manage our emotional lives, this is a question that we have been struggling with likely for as long as we have been roaming the planet in our current form.
但是，我认为，这是一个非常重要的问题，但是，我经常想到我们今天在这个播客上讨论的问题，这个关于我们如何管理我们的情感生活的问题，这是一个我们可能一直在努力解决的问题，只要我们以目前的形式漫游在这个星球上。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because humans have constantly been evolving new technologies?
因为人类一直在不断发展新技术？
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
We've always been challenged by circumstances, and those circumstances are constantly evolving, providing new threats to us that now we need to learn how to manage.
我们总是受到环境的挑战，而这些环境在不断变化，给我们带来新的威胁，现在我们需要学习如何应对。
When I was digging deep into the history of emotion regulation for "Shift," I couldn't believe it that when I looked back at the first surgical tool ever developed, you know what that is?
当我深入挖掘“转变”的情绪调节历史时，我简直不敢相信，当我回顾有史以来开发的第一个手术工具时，你知道那是什么吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Trefining.
精炼。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Trefining.
精炼。
So trephination, tell everyone who's listening what that involved.
所以环钻，告诉每个正在听的人这涉及到什么。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Trefining is where you bore a hole through the skull in order to let out some volume of fluid.
提炼是指在头骨上钻一个洞，以便排出一定量的液体。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Some volume of fluid, or-
一定体积的液体，或者-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or remove brain
或者去掉大脑
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
...
...
or brain, or if we go back 8 to 10,000 years ago when this technology was first cutting edge, like the new iPhone of the times, trephination-
或大脑，或者如果我们回到 8 至 10,000 年前，当时这项技术首次处于前沿，就像时代的新 iPhone 那样，环钻术——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
For spirits
烈酒用
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
...
...
for maybe spirits.
也许是为了精神。
So one of the reasons it was believed to be used was to allow the evil spirits to escape that are maybe causing tremendous emotion dysregulation.
因此，人们认为使用它的原因之一是让邪灵逃脱，这可能会导致巨大的情绪失调。
So that was a cutting edge tool at one moment in time that we used to manage our emotions.
因此，这在某个时刻是我们用来管理情绪的尖端工具。
Then let's jump into the mental time travel machine, or just the time travel machine, and go to the late 1940s, where there was another major spike on the emotion regulation innovation timeline.
然后让我们跳进心理时间旅行机器，或者只是时间旅行机器，回到 20 世纪 40 年代末，情绪调节创新时间线上出现了另一个重大高峰。
You know where I'm going with this?
你知道我要说什么吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Unintended.
无意的。
I'm guessing you're talking about the lobotomy.
我猜你说的是脑白质切除术。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The frontal lobotomy.
额叶切除术。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
A Portuguese physician develops the lobotomy, I think it was initially called a leucotomy, essentially making some holes in your frontal cortex.
一位葡萄牙医生发明了脑白质切除术，我认为它最初被称为白质切除术，本质上是在你的额叶皮层上打一些洞。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Going up through the orbit of the eye.
向上穿过眼眶。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Through the eye.
通过眼睛。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sweeping it back and forth.
来回扫它。
This was not just an outpatient surgery, but a mobile surgery.
这不仅仅是门诊手术，而是移动手术。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They would arrive to people's homes.
他们会到达人们的家中。
I could be wrong, but I think a Nobel Prize was given for the lobotomy.
我可能是错的，但我认为诺贝尔奖是因为脑白质切除术而获得的。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Oh, there you go.
哦，就这样吧。
That's the-
那就是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Relieved anxiety.
缓解了焦虑。
Unfortunately, it relieved a lot of other things too.
不幸的是，它也缓解了很多其他事情。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Relieved many other things as well.
还缓解了许多其他事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Relieved people's interest in pursuing lots of things.
解除了人们追求很多事物的兴趣。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
It caused major, major, major dysfunction, and to be clear, this is not an advocated emotion regulation intervention.
它导致了严重、严重、严重的功能障碍，需要明确的是，这不是一种提倡的情绪调节干预措施。
It hasn't been for a while.
已经有一段时间没有了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, that's why I said don't box.
好吧，这就是为什么我说不要拳击。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Prefrontal cortical damage is a common feature-
前额皮质损伤是一个常见特征——
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
of people with-
的人有-
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Getting hit over and over
一次又一次受到打击
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
who box.
谁盒子。
Or even, I don't know if this is true, someone needs to check, but I do hear that sadly some soccer players who head the ball a lot-
或者甚至，我不知道这是否属实，需要有人检查，但我确实听说，可悲的是，有些足球运动员经常头球——
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
deal with some frontal cortical-
处理一些额叶皮质-
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
related dementia type stuff.
相关的痴呆症类型的东西。
I'm guessing that's probably related to some genetic susceptibility because, at least to me, the soccer ball is not very hard.
我猜这可能与某些遗传易感性有关，因为至少对我来说，足球不是很硬。
And then again, there are, of course, people who play a whole career of football-
话又说回来，当然，有些人踢了整个足球生涯——
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
or box, less seldom boxing.
或拳击，较少见的是拳击。
People who get hit a lot in the head often have problems.
头部经常受到撞击的人通常会遇到问题。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They develop problems.
他们会出现问题。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Generally not a good thing.
一般来说不是什么好事。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
But just to go back to the lobotomy, what's amazing to me is that was perceived to be such an advance that it won the Nobel Prize.
但回到脑白质切除术，令我惊讶的是，它被认为是一项进步，以至于获得了诺贝尔奖。
Like, the Nobel Prize.
比如诺贝尔奖。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because it calmed people down.
因为它让人们平静下来。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Calmed people down.
使人们平静下来。
So I raise these issues to just point that we've been struggling to identify tools to manage our emotions effectively for a really long time.
所以我提出这些问题只是想指出，长期以来我们一直在努力寻找有效管理情绪的工具。
And now fast-forward to the present, we have not solved the puzzle of emotion regulation yet.
现在快进到现在，我们还没有解决情绪调节的难题。
But I would argue that we have made major advances in identifying non-invasive, science-based tools that can be leveraged to help people lead more productive emotional lives.
但我认为，我们在识别非侵入性、基于科学的工具方面取得了重大进展，这些工具可以用来帮助人们过上更富有成效的情感生活。
And so you raised this question earlier about what is a productive life?
所以你之前提出了这个问题，什么是富有成效的生活？
What is a good life?
什么是美好的生活？
And I think answering that question is in part relevant to how I think about how do you define self-control in many ways, or emotion regulation.
我认为回答这个问题在一定程度上与我如何定义自我控制或情绪调节有关。
Or not just how you define it, but what are the component parts?
或者不仅仅是你如何定义它，而是它的组成部分是什么？
So we've been talking about tools throughout this conversation.
因此，我们在整个对话中一直在讨论工具。
All these different tools that exist, these different shifters for pushing our emotions or chatter around.
所有这些不同的工具都存在，这些不同的转换器可以推动我们的情绪或喋喋不休。
That's one core part of regulating effectively.
这是有效监管的核心部分之一。
But another core part is our motivation or our goals.
但另一个核心部分是我们的动机或我们的目标。
And you need both motivation and tools.
你需要动力和工具。
So I can know about all the tools on the planet that scientists have discovered.
这样我就可以了解科学家在地球上发现的所有工具。
If I'm not motivated to manage my emotions, I'm not going to use those tools.
如果我没有动力去管理自己的情绪，我就不会使用这些工具。
If, on the other hand, I am highly motivated to regulate my emotions, but I don't know what the tools are, I'm not going to be that effective, and I may, in fact, do some bad things.
另一方面，如果我非常有动力去调节自己的情绪，但我不知道有什么工具，我就不会那么有效，事实上，我可能会做一些坏事。
I may use unhealthy tools, substances that really can very powerfully, substance abuse I'm talking about, that can modulate my emotions, but has some negative consequences.
我可能会使用不健康的工具，那些确实非常有效的物质，我所说的药物滥用，可以调节我的情绪，但会产生一些负面后果。
So it's about what are my goals for me, for my emotional life, and do I possess the tools that allow me to accomplish those goals?
所以问题是我的情感生活目标是什么，以及我是否拥有实现这些目标的工具？
I think that is a formula for the good life.
我认为这是美好生活的公式。
Hey, here are the goals that I have, and if these are healthy, productive goals and I have the means to achieve them, that should bring me a sense of satisfaction.
嘿，这是我的目标，如果这些是健康的、富有成效的目标，并且我有办法实现它们，那应该会给我带来满足感。
Sometimes our goals, of course, aren't optimal, and we use that maybe controversial word, but we do change our goals throughout our life.
当然，有时我们的目标并不是最佳的，我们使用这个可能有争议的词，但我们确实会在一生中改变我们的目标。
But it's about finding the right set of goals for us as individuals and then identifying the tools that we can use to bring those goals to fruition.
但这是为我们个人找到一套正确的目标，然后确定我们可以用来实现这些目标的工具。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
In keeping with this historical arc of the tools that humans have used to try and regulate emotion, you mentioned trephining, frontal lobotomy.
为了与人类用来尝试和调节情绪的工具的历史弧线保持一致，您提到了环钻术、额叶切除术。
Think about a barbaric-appearing procedure, but one that actually is pretty effective in the right hands, and that is still commonly used today, electric shock therapy.
想象一下一种看似野蛮的治疗方法，但如果掌握得当，实际上非常有效，而且至今仍然常用，即电击疗法。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Which at a mechanistic level, we-
在机械层面上，我们-
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Don't understand
不明白
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
still don't really understand, but it seems to lead to a kind of massive dump of a bunch of neuromodulators, dopamine, serotonin, but almost willy-nilly.
仍然不太明白，但它似乎会导致一堆神经调节剂、多巴胺、血清素的大量倾倒，但几乎是不由自主地。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
It's like a-
这就像一个-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then nowadays, there's a lot of at least interest if not enthusiasm, more work is needed on the various psychedelics.
如今，即使不是热情，至少也有很多兴趣，需要对各种迷幻药进行更多的工作。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In particular, psilocybin and MDMA for depression, and PTSD more specifically.
特别是，裸盖菇素和 MDMA 可以治疗抑郁症，更具体地说，可以治疗 PTSD。
And while those are more in the serotonergic pathway, my read of the data is that they're creating more brain-wide connectivity at resting state.
虽然这些更多地属于血清素能途径，但我对数据的解读是，它们在静息状态下创造了更多的全脑连接。
They're still fairly crude tools-
它们仍然是相当粗糙的工具——
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in terms of you're massively changing the levels of given neuromodulators.
就你正在大规模改变给定神经调节剂的水平而言。
People are undergoing variable experiences.
人们正在经历不同的经历。
It's not directed in any way.
它没有以任何方式定向。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Nolan Williams at Stanford is combining those things with transcranial magnetic stimulation to try and essentially highlight the activity of particular circuits during the psychedelic journeys and after, things of that sort.
斯坦福大学的诺兰·威廉姆斯正在将这些东西与经颅磁刺激结合起来，试图从本质上突出迷幻之旅期间和之后的特定电路的活动，诸如此类。
So it's getting more specific, but I would say even today, we don't really have great pharmacologic or surgical tools for emotion.
所以它变得更加具体，但我想说，即使在今天，我们也没有真正拥有治疗情绪的优秀药理学或外科工具。
Now, there's terrific neurosurgery going on, mind you.
请注意，现在正在进行很棒的神经外科手术。
But when it comes to behavioral tools for emotion regulation, I feel like the psychologists, you all, you and your colleagues, have done a tremendous job, as have the people from, for lack of a better name, the sort of ancient traditions-
但当谈到情绪调节的行为工具时，我觉得心理学家、你们所有人、你们和你们的同事都做了巨大的工作，就像那些来自古老传统的人们一样，因为缺乏更好的名字——
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and from the wellness community, things like long exhale breathing, physiological sighs, meditation.
在健康社区，诸如长呼气、生理叹息、冥想之类的东西。
Wendy Suzuki's lab at NYU showing you 13 minutes a day of meditation improves focus, emotion regulation, emotional state.
Wendy Suzuki 在纽约大学的实验室向您展示每天 13 分钟的冥想可以改善注意力、情绪调节和情绪状态。
So it seems to me that the behavioral tools are getting way out ahead of the surgical and even pharmacologic tools in terms of their specificity, their safety, and maybe even their potency.
因此，在我看来，行为工具在特异性、安全性甚至效力方面都远远领先于外科手术甚至药物工具。
Would you care to reflect on what you see as the most valuable tools for emotion regulation?
您愿意反思一下您认为最有价值的情绪调节工具是什么吗？
You've touched on some of them today already, but taking a walk, green spaces, mental time travel, fantasy.
今天你已经接触过其中的一些，但是散步、绿色空间、精神时间旅行、幻想。
I listed a few more of these off.
我还列出了其中一些。
These might seem more modal, top-level contour things, but they work, right?
这些可能看起来更模态、更顶层的轮廓，但它们确实有效，对吗？
The data say they work.
数据表明它们有效。
Journaling.
写日记。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
We understand the mechanisms that are underlying the benefits of these tools.
我们了解这些工具的优势背后的机制。
They are easy to implement, not always, but for a lot of them, they're easy, and I think that's in part where their power resides.
它们很容易实施，但并不总是如此，但对于很多人来说，它们很容易，我认为这部分是它们的力量所在。
We are still trying to understand how the brain functions.
我们仍在尝试了解大脑的运作方式。
As you well know, you've contributed to this.
正如您所知，您对此做出了贡献。
I've worked on this a little bit myself, too.
我自己也在这方面做了一些工作。
The brain is a remarkably complicated organ, and we still have a lot to learn.
大脑是一个非常复杂的器官，我们还有很多东西需要学习。
I'm a big fan of trying to understand how phenomena like emotion play out at different levels of analysis, at the psychological level of thinking and feeling, but also at the biological level in terms of patterns of neural activity and hormones and so forth and so on.
我非常热衷于尝试了解情绪等现象如何在不同的分析层面上发挥作用，在思维和感觉的心理层面上，以及在神经活动和激素模式等方面的生物层面上。
And so I think there's great hope that we will be able to eventually, down the road, try to help people manage their emotions through multiple different sources of intervention, through the pharmacological level, through the behavioral level, through the interpersonal level.
因此，我认为我们最终有很大希望能够通过多种不同的干预手段，通过药理层面、行为层面、人际层面，帮助人们管理自己的情绪。
But it's a messy, messy space right now, and I think one of the big problems is, and this in part gets to bigger questions about science and how science is done, it can be hard to cross levels of analysis, and there are multiple practical constraints that become active here.
但现在这是一个非常非常混乱的空间，我认为最大的问题之一是，这在一定程度上涉及到有关科学以及科学如何进行的更大问题，很难跨越不同层次的分析，而且这里存在多种实际限制。
So having the large enough samples and the right collaborators to look at how different kinds of interventions interact with one another, work in different populations.
因此，拥有足够大的样本和合适的合作者来研究不同类型的干预措施如何相互作用，在不同人群中发挥作用。
And so we tend not to do those more complicated designs because they're a lot harder to do.
所以我们倾向于不做那些更复杂的设计，因为它们更难做。
They take a ton more money, a ton more time and effort, and oftentimes, scientists are on timelines, and there are incentive structures that guide the kind of work that they do.
他们需要更多的金钱、更多的时间和精力，而且通常情况下，科学家们都按时完成任务，并且有激励结构来指导他们所做的工作。
But big picture, down the road, I think the big questions are about how do these different kinds of interventions interact with one another.
但从长远来看，我认为最大的问题是这些不同类型的干预措施如何相互作用。
The good news is, though, that for any person who is watching or listening who's motivated to manage their emotions right now, there are many things you can do to start, and it begins, step one, learning about what these tools are, and then starting this process of experimenting with the tools.
不过，好消息是，对于任何正在观看或倾听并有动力立即管理自己情绪的人来说，您可以做很多事情来开始，第一步是了解这些工具是什么，然后开始尝试使用这些工具的过程。
I don't use that word experimenting lightly.
我不会轻易使用这个词“尝试”。
I wouldn't advocate experimenting with agents that have serious side effects of the sort that some of the biological interventions you articulated earlier do.
我不主张尝试使用具有严重副作用的药物，就像您之前阐述的一些生物干预措施所产生的那样。
Those kinds of tools, I think, should be used in the context of medical supervision.
我认为这些工具应该在医疗监督的背景下使用。
But a lot of these other tools that we're talking about, small changes in how you think and behave and interact with your environments, those are things people can start doing right now.
但是我们正在谈论的许多其他工具，您的思维方式、行为方式以及与环境的交互方式的微小变化，这些都是人们现在就可以开始做的事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
One of the most common questions I've received over the years is, on YouTube in particular, is how to stop intrusive voices.
多年来我收到的最常见问题之一是如何阻止侵入性声音，尤其是在 YouTube 上。
And occasionally, when people ask these questions, they'll highlight that some parent or an ex or something, kind of a judge voice in there.
有时，当人们问这些问题时，他们会强调其中有一些父母或前任之类的东西，有点像法官的声音。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And they don't know if it's their voice or the other person's voice, but it's in their head, and it's very unpleasant.
而且他们不知道这是自己的声音还是对方的声音，但它就在他们的脑海里，而且非常难听。
Presumably, this circles back to childhood traumas or other forms of traumas, but irrespective of the origins, are there any tools specifically to deal with intrusive thoughts and thought patterns, maybe even OCD-like thought patterns?
据推测，这可以追溯到童年创伤或其他形式的创伤，但无论起源如何，是否有任何工具专门用于处理侵入性思想和思维模式，甚至可能是类似强迫症的思维模式？
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
So a couple of responses to that.
对此有几点回应。
So first of all, I think step one is recognizing that if you are hearing another voice, like if you can hear your dad's voice in your head, it's not your dad who is in your head.
因此，首先，我认为第一步是认识到，如果您听到另一个声音，例如您可以在脑海中听到父亲的声音，那么您脑海中的并不是您的父亲。
That is a simulation that you are engaging in that your brain is capable of producing.
这是你正在参与的、你的大脑能够产生的模拟。
And so that I think can be informative for people who are curious about these inner worlds.
因此我认为这可以为那些对这些内心世界感到好奇的人提供信息。
Like I can hear-
就像我能听到的那样——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, I'm not referring to auditory hallucinations.
是的，我指的不是幻听。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm referring to the language of somebody-
我指的是某人的语言-
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Sure
当然可以
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
maybe not in that person's voice, but they're hearing maybe not, "You're a bad person," but like-
也许不是那个人的声音，但他们听到的也许不是“你是个坏人”，而是——
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
you're not good enough.
你还不够好。
Like it's not enough or just feeling like they can't enjoy the good things in life because of these intrusive negative voices.
好像这还不够，或者只是感觉因为这些侵入性的负面声音而无法享受生活中的美好事物。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Here's something that I hope listeners and viewers will find exceptionally liberating, as I have found liberating from just knowing the science.
我希望听众和观众能够从这些内容中获得极大的解放，就像我从仅仅了解科学中获得解放一样。
So actually, I talk about these intrusive thoughts in "Shift." They are incredibly normative, and so there's research which looks at like how frequently have you experienced an intrusive thought over the past week or month or two months?
所以实际上，我在《转变》中谈论了这些侵入性的想法。它们非常规范，因此有研究会调查您在过去一周或一个月或两个月内经历侵入性想法的频率如何？
The proportion of people who experience these dark thoughts is exceptionally high.
经历过这些黑暗想法的人比例异常高。
I don't remember the exact percentage, but it is in my book, and it is near ceiling.
我不记得确切的百分比，但在我的书中有，而且接近上限。
I will do an exercise with my undergraduate classes where I will ask them to anonymously describe whether they've experienced a dark thought over the past week.
我会在我的本科生班级中做一个练习，要求他们匿名描述他们在过去一周是否经历过黑暗的想法。
Almost all of them are capable of generating them, and some of these thoughts are really, really dark.
几乎所有的想法都有能力产生它们，其中一些想法真的非常非常黑暗。
I will often experience a very dark intrusive thought when I'm exercising at the gym.
当我在健身房锻炼时，我经常会经历一种非常黑暗的侵入性想法。
You're looking at me with curiosity and a bit of concern right now.
你现在用好奇又带着一丝担忧的眼神看着我。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, not concern.
不，不关心。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm just fascinated.
我只是着迷。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah, so-
是啊，所以——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I have ideas about why this may be, but I'm just-
我对为什么会这样有一些想法，但我只是——
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I'm just fascinated.
我只是着迷。
I don't know that I've had dark thoughts in the gym, but it's interesting.
我不知道我在健身房里有过什么阴暗的想法，但这很有趣。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Here's my dark thought.
这是我的阴暗想法。
Watch out if you see me in the gym from here on.
从现在开始，如果你在健身房看到我，请小心。
So if I'm carrying a heavy dumbbell from a bench to a rack, I will sometimes have a thought of dropping it on the face of another person on a mat.
因此，如果我将一个沉重的哑铃从长凳上搬到架子上，有时我会想到将它扔到垫子上另一个人的脸上。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh my goodness.
天哪。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
It's terribly dark.
天太黑了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Terrible thought.
可怕的想法。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
It's a terrible, terrible thought.
这是一个非常非常可怕的想法。
So why am I experiencing that?
那么为什么我会遇到这样的情况呢？
It is most likely the brain's simulating worst case scenarios to prevent me from doing it.
这很可能是大脑模拟最坏的情况来阻止我这样做。
Of course, I don't want to drop a dumbbell on someone, I never have.
当然，我不想把哑铃扔给别人，我从来没有这样做过。
And so that's one explanation for why this is so normative.
这就是为什么它如此规范的一个解释。
It's your brain's way of constantly, there's a theory that we're constantly simulating all sorts of possibilities for what could happen, and most of these simulations, the probability of them coming to fruition are exceptionally low, infinitesimally small.
这是你的大脑不断进行的方式，有一种理论认为，我们不断地模拟可能发生的事情的各种可能性，而大多数这些模拟，它们实现的概率都非常低，无限小。
But on occasion, some of the wacky ones do escape into awareness, and that's when we get the dark thought about harming someone or doing something illegal in a pretty egregious way, or in my case, dropping the dumbbell on the person stretching on their face.
但有时，一些古怪的人确实会逃脱意识，那就是当我们产生伤害某人或以相当令人震惊的方式做非法事情的黑暗想法时，或者就我而言，将哑铃扔到脸上伸展的人身上。
And so here's what I find liberating.
这就是我觉得解放的地方。
Me understanding that this is just how my brain works.
我明白这就是我的大脑的运作方式。
Well, that doesn't mean now that something wrong with me as a human being, right, that I'm morally corrupt in any way.
嗯，这并不意味着我作为一个人有问题，对吧，我在道德上有任何腐败。
My brain's going to sometimes produce these kinds of dark thoughts.
我的大脑有时会产生这些黑暗的想法。
I'm not going to act on them.
我不会对他们采取行动。
And as long as I'm not acting on them, it's all good.
只要我不对他们采取行动，一切都很好。
It's almost like when people learn about the physiological response to anxiety.
这几乎就像人们了解焦虑的生理反应一样。
Before they know what is happening, that can often be an incredibly distressing experience.
在他们知道发生了什么之前，这往往是一次令人难以置信的痛苦经历。
Like all of a sudden, your stomach is churning, your palms are sweating.
突然之间，你的胃在翻腾，你的手掌出汗。
But in research, which shows if you communicate to people, "Hey, this is just your body preparing yourselves to adaptively respond to this uncertain circumstance you face," all of a sudden, you are totally flipping the frame.
但研究表明，如果你与人们交流，“嘿，这只是你的身体在准备适应性地应对你面临的这种不确定的情况”，突然之间，你就完全翻转了框架。
And now, I'm a Lamborghini, right?
现在，我是一辆兰博基尼，对吧？
I am rising to the occasion.
我正在迎难而上。
My body's doing what it should be doing to allow me to excel here.
我的身体正在做它应该做的事情，让我在这里表现出色。
That's the kind of flip that I think understanding the frequency and origins of intrusive thoughts can have for folks.
我认为，了解侵入性想法的频率和起源可以为人们带来这种转变。
So step one is just recognizing if you experience intrusive thoughts at times, again, welcome to the human condition.
因此，第一步就是认识到您是否有时会经历侵入性想法，再次欢迎来到人类状况。
It's a little blip in how our brain operates.
这只是我们大脑运作方式中的一个小问题。
But a lot of these tools have also been shown to be useful for nipping repetitive thinking in the bud.
但事实证明，其中许多工具对于将重复思维消灭在萌芽状态也很有用。
So when you're curtailing chatter, you are also curtailing the likelihood of perseverating.
因此，当你减少闲聊时，你也就减少了坚持下去的可能性。
The reason why we often perseverate on problems we're experiencing is we're highly motivated to make sense of these circumstances so we can move on with our lives.
我们之所以经常坚持解决我们遇到的问题，是因为我们有很强的动力去理解这些情况，这样我们才能继续我们的生活。
And our brain, this wonderful problem-solving organ that we possess, it just keeps churning until we solve that problem.
我们的大脑，我们拥有的这个奇妙的解决问题的器官，它会不断地运转，直到我们解决这个问题。
And that's surfacing all sorts of related thoughts here and there until you get there.
在你到达那里之前，各种相关的想法都会在这里或那里浮现。
And so when you solve the problem Those thoughts tend to subside too.
因此，当你解决问题时，这些想法也会消退。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I have two points, both of which are essentially questions.
我有两点，本质上都是问题。
I think it's relatively common for people when they go to a bridge or a dam or something-
我认为人们去桥梁、水坝或其他地方时，这是比较常见的——
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
something very high with the potential for essentially a fatal fall were they to jump off, to have the thought, "What keeps me from jumping off?"
一个非常高的东西，如果他们跳下去，可能会导致致命的坠落，并有这样的想法：“是什么阻止我跳下去？”
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
When in fact they absolutely don't want to jump off.
事实上他们绝对不想跳下去。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it seems like it's another example of it's registering the danger and the severity of the consequences.
这似乎是它记录危险和后果严重性的另一个例子。
It also, I realize, helps us understand the level of risk.
我意识到，它还可以帮助我们了解风险级别。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think Alex Honnold, who famously-
I think Alex Honnold, who famously-
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Free soloed
徒手攀爬
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
did free soloed El Cap.
徒手攀岩 El Cap。
A remarkable movie, by the way, just along the lines of what we're talking about.
顺便说一下，这是一部出色的电影，与我们正在谈论的内容相符。
The way the movie is constructed, and I think Jimmy Chin and colleagues who made that movie did such an incredible job, not just with the cinematography, but you know he survives-
这部电影的制作方式，我认为吉米·金（Jimmy Chin）和制作这部电影的同事们做了如此令人难以置信的工作，不仅仅是在摄影方面，而且你知道他活了下来 -
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
from the very beginning of the movie, and yet it's terrifying to watch-
电影一开始就这么说，但看着还是很恐怖——
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Terrifying
可怕的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
the whole thing, and it's kind of a hour 45-minute expedition of exactly what we're talking about.
整个事情，这就像一个 1 小时 45 分钟的探险，正是我们正在谈论的事情。
In that movie, as I recall, Alex spells out the assessment of risk and consequence.
我记得在那部电影中，亚历克斯详细阐述了风险和后果的评估。
Level of risk, level of consequence, and how those are key parameters to evaluate, and he's obviously done that for himself, and he succeeded.
风险水平、后果水平以及如何评估这些是关键参数，显然他是为自己做到的，而且他成功了。
And I hope he never does it again, only because he seems like a really delightful person and it would be nice to keep him around.
我希望他再也不会这样做，只是因为他看起来是一个非常令人愉快的人，把他留在身边就好了。
And he's doing other important work now.
他现在正在做其他重要的工作。
But the point being that I think it's a very natural thing to evaluate risk and consequence in a way that, quote unquote, "feels dark."
但重点是，我认为以一种“感觉黑暗”的方式评估风险和后果是很自然的事情。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But it's actually highly adaptive through-
但它实际上具有高度适应性，因为
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Absolutely
绝对
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
the lens that we're talking about it.
the lens that we're talking about it.
So that's one point.
这是一点。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Well, just to that point, if I can interject.
好吧，就到此为止，请允许我插话一下。
So just to normalize this further for folks, so my family is very special to me, as it is to most people.
因此，为了让人们进一步正常化这一点，我的家庭对我来说非常特别，对大多数人来说也是如此。
When my first daughter was born, we used to live in this house that had this, on the second floor, there was a, I don't know if you'd describe it as an overpass, but it was open to the floor beneath.
当我的第一个女儿出生的时候，我们曾经住在这个有这个的房子里，在二楼，有一个，我不知道你是否会把它描述为立交桥，但它对下面的地板是开放的。
And I remember having these intrusive thoughts of, at night when we'd have to bring my daughter into the bedroom to feed her or change her diaper, whatever, I would have these thoughts of carrying her and then dropping her over into the, and splat.
我记得有过这些侵入性的想法，晚上我们必须把我女儿带进卧室喂她吃饭或换尿布，无论如何，我会有这些想法，抱着她然后把她扔进房间，然后扑通一声。
Not pleasant thoughts to experience in the middle of the night.
在半夜经历的想法并不愉快。
It speaks to this point that you are raising.
这说明了你所提出的这一点。
That was likely my mind's way of homing in on a really, really important issue in my life that I want to make sure never, ever, ever happens.
这很可能是我的思维方式，聚焦在我生命中一个非常非常重要的问题上，我想确保它永远、永远、永远不会发生。
It is not an indication that I'm morally corrupt or incredibly dark person, it's how my brain is operating.
这并不表明我道德败坏或极其黑暗，这只是我大脑的运作方式。
So.
所以。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, you're assessing risk and consequence-
Yeah, you're assessing risk and consequence-
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in an adaptive way.
以自适应的方式。
Yeah, it's fascinating to think about.
Yeah, it's fascinating to think about.
The second comment/question I'd love your thoughts on is, I had this bulldog, I talk about him all the time, this bulldog mastiff, and he had one default behavior that if he couldn't engage in it, would create anxiety in him, and that was he liked to chew.
我想听听你的第二个评论/问题是，我养了这只斗牛犬，我一直在谈论他，这只斗牛犬獒，他有一种默认行为，如果他不能参与其中，就会在他身上产生焦虑，那就是他喜欢咀嚼。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
He liked to gnaw on things.
He liked to gnaw on things.
As a puppy, he actually would teethe on bricks in the backyard.
作为一只小狗，他实际上会在后院的砖块上磨牙。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I was like, "Oh my goodness." It looks so painful to me.
I was like, "Oh my goodness." It looks so painful to me.
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Ouch.
哎哟。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sometimes he'd even bite-
Sometimes he'd even bite-
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Sharpening his teeth
磨利他的牙齿
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
through a lip.
通过嘴唇。
The bulldog part of their phenotype is that a lot of the pain receptors have been bred out of their face.
他们的斗牛犬表型的一部分是，许多疼痛感受器是从他们的脸上培育出来的。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I just think, "Oh my goodness." I go out there and I was distraught at how much pain he must be causing himself.
And I just think, "Oh my goodness."当我走到那里时，我对他给自己造成的痛苦感到心烦意乱。
It was obviously less than I perceived.
It was obviously less than I perceived.
But nonetheless, this gnawing behavior, you could just see it.
但尽管如此，这种啃咬行为，你还是可以看到的。
It gave him such pleasure.
It gave him such pleasure.
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You give him something to chew on, you could just see the anxiety dissolve out of him.
你给他一些东西来咀嚼，你可以看到他的焦虑消失了。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I've known a number of people that are fairly high intensity in terms of they speak fast, high density of thought, information, et cetera, at least outwardly, who claim that they have got sort of a high RPM internally.
我认识一些人，他们的语速很快，思想、信息密度很高，等等，至少在表面上是这样，他们声称自己的内部转速很高。
And I vary, depending on time of day and time of year, on this, but I place myself more or less into that category.
我对此的看法会根据一天中的不同时间和一年中的不同时间而有所不同，但我或多或少地将自己归入这一类别。
Engaging in an activity that harnesses my full attention, perhaps we could call it flow, but nonetheless, engaging in an activity that harnesses my full attention feels to me so unbelievably satisfying.
从事一项充分利用我全部注意力的活动，也许我们可以称之为心流，但尽管如此，从事一项充分利用我全部注意力的活动对我来说是令人难以置信的满足。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So unbelievably satisfying, and I think it's for two reasons.
如此令人难以置信的满足，我认为有两个原因。
One is the benefits of doing those activities.
One is the benefits of doing those activities.
Studying, learning, podcasting, doing research, connecting with someone in a really directed way, like getting into that tunnel with them as we're doing now.
学习、学习、播客、做研究、以一种真正有针对性的方式与某人联系，就像我们现在所做的那样与他们一起进入隧道。
There's a positive feature, and then there's also the removal of a negative, like those RPM are not humming in the background.
有一个积极的特征，然后也消除了一个消极的特征，比如那些转速不会在背景中嗡嗡作响。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I think for a lot of people, like ultra runners and I know a lot of former addicts that start running marathons and get sober and stay sober.
我认为对于很多人来说，比如超级跑步者，我认识很多前瘾君子，他们开始跑马拉松，变得清醒并保持清醒。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's remarkable how physical activity or cognitive activity can kind of take us into that plane of focus that both makes us productive, makes us fitter, but also relieves this inner voice.
值得注意的是，身体活动或认知活动可以将我们带入这样一个焦点平面，既使我们富有成效，使我们更健康，又减轻了内心的声音。
It kind of lets the tension out the same way that I observe Costello letting the tension out through gnawing on these bricks or raw hides-
它释放紧张的方式就像我观察到科斯特洛通过啃咬这些砖块或生皮来释放紧张一样——
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
or whatever it was.
或者无论它是什么。
And so my question is, is there, as I'm assuming, a relationship between the physical and the mental?
所以我的问题是，正如我所假设的那样，身体和精神之间是否存在某种关系？
Do we basically have a certain amount of energy in us, and it varies between people, and we need to harness and/or adjust that level of energy, and to do that in ways that hopefully make us a living or bring our social relationships more closely together?
我们体内是否基本上拥有一定量的能量，并且它因人而异，我们需要利用和/或调整这种能量水平，并以希望使我们谋生或使我们的社会关系更紧密地联系在一起的方式做到这一点？
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Well, it certainly plays out in physical contexts as you're describing, but it also, as you alluded to, plays out in cognitive contexts.
嗯，正如您所描述的那样，它当然会在物理环境中发挥作用，但正如您所提到的，它也会在认知环境中发挥作用。
When there is this match, this sweet spot between the demands, like you're in a situation that is actually challenging, either physically or cognitively, and the resources that you bring to that situation perfectly match The demands.
当存在这种匹配时，需求之间存在这种最佳点，就像您处于一个实际上具有挑战性的情况，无论是在身体上还是在认知上，并且您为该情况带来的资源与需求完美匹配。
So it's a taxing situation, but you are able to engage with it completely.
所以这是一个繁重的情况，但你可以完全投入其中。
That is the formula for getting, stuck is the wrong word, for getting immersed in these kinds of flow states, which are, for many people, the goal that they have in their lives, both recreationally and professionally.
这就是陷入这种流动状态的公式，“卡住”这个词是错误的，对于许多人来说，这是他们生活中的目标，无论是娱乐还是职业。
And so you as someone who is ideally getting into these flow states with your guests, I would hope and imagine, and that's always the aspiration.
因此，我希望并想象，作为一个能够与客人一起理想地进入这些流动状态的人，这始终是我们的愿望。
That must feel really good.
That must feel really good.
You talk for a long time with people.
You talk for a long time with people.
Does it feel like a long time when you're having those conversations?
当你进行这些谈话时，是否感觉时间很长？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No. Time perception completely changes.
No. Time perception completely changes.
And when I do this for two or three hours a week, and then when we do a solo episode, sometimes the recording's longest ever yet is 11 hours edited down.
当我每周这样做两到三个小时，然后当我们制作独奏剧集时，有时有史以来最长的录音会被剪辑掉 11 个小时。
But those can be anywhere from 90 minutes to four hours, or a live event.
但这些时间可以是 90 分钟到 4 小时，也可以是现场活动。
And I couldn't tell you, it just seems like time just passes.
我无法告诉你，时间似乎就这样过去了。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Just time.
只是时间。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Time dissolves away.
时间消散了。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
And that is because you are so absorbed in the moment and meeting the challenges of that situation that all of your attention is commanded to that point in time, that moment, and that doesn't leave a whole lot of room for all of the chatter to percolate in the background.
那是因为你如此专注于当下并应对这种情况的挑战，以至于你所有的注意力都集中在那个时间点、那个时刻，而这并没有给所有的闲聊留下很大的空间来渗透到背景中。
And so, one often you might think like an ultramarathon or what's the correct term?
因此，您可能经常想到超级马拉松，或者正确的术语是什么？
Is that it, ultra?
是这样吗，超？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, it's called an ultra.
是的，这就是所谓的超。
I think we have some triathletes here in the room, our producer, Rob Moore, sitting to my left.
我想房间里有一些铁人三项运动员，我们的制片人罗布·摩尔坐在我的左边。
We've never done this before, but how long is an ultra?
我们以前从未这样做过，但超长是多长时间？
Anything longer than a marathon, is that right?
任何比马拉松更长的事情，对吗？
He's giving a nod.
他正在点头。
He's going to remain silent.
他将保持沉默。
Anything longer than a marathon is considered an ultra.
任何比马拉松更长的比赛都被视为超级马拉松。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
And so that's a lot of time, on the one hand, to be alone with your thoughts.
因此，一方面，有很多时间可以独自思考。
Right?
正确的？
And you might think that might just be grounds for experiencing chatter, but it's also a particularly challenging kind of physical feat that you have to devote a lot of resources to meeting those physical demands.
您可能认为这可能只是经历喋喋不休的理由，但这也是一种特别具有挑战性的体力壮举，您必须投入大量资源来满足这些体力需求。
And right so that can propel you into a state of flow, and then you get some runner's high to boot, some chemical boost to enhance your mood, and all of a sudden, now you have people running 130 miles.
这样可以让你进入一种心流状态，然后你会得到一些跑步者的快感，一些化学物质可以增强你的情绪，突然之间，现在有人跑了 130 英里。
I'm exaggerating.
我太夸张了。
How long is it?
有多长？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, people have done 200-mile ultras-
哦，人们已经完成了 200 英里的超跑——
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
No
否
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
150 mile ultras.
150 英里超跑。
We have a friend, again, my producer, Rob Moore, and I have a friend, Ken Ridout, who does these sorts of races in the Gobi Desert.
我们有一个朋友，我的制片人罗布·摩尔，我有一个朋友肯·里杜特，他在戈壁沙漠进行此类比赛。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
He did it without any prior training in the desert, then won.
他事先没有在沙漠接受任何训练，就做到了这一点，然后获胜。
Ken in particular, I'm thinking about right now.
我现在正在思考特别是肯。
He's a very high energy guy.
他是一个非常有活力的人。
I would be concerned about Ken and his family, not their safety, but their sanity, if Ken didn't run that much.
如果肯不跑那么多，我会担心肯和他的家人，不是他们的安全，而是他们的理智。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because he's just-
因为他只是——
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
He needs to burn it off.
他需要把它烧掉。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
He just has that much energy.
他只有那么多能量。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And the whole concept of energy is something that I'm getting more and more interested in.
我对能源的整个概念越来越感兴趣。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
As we age, we tend to have less energy.
随着年龄的增长，我们的精力往往会减少。
What is that?
那是什么？
Is it mitochondrial density and function?
是线粒体密度和功能吗？
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Probably.
可能吧。
But what we're talking about here is a sort of cognitive velocity.
但我们在这里讨论的是一种认知速度。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's not an official term, but it's one that I'm using more and more nowadays.
这不是一个官方术语，但我现在越来越多地使用它。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
That's a good one.
这是一件好事。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
People should try this.
人们应该尝试这个。
I am curious have you ever done this.
I am curious have you ever done this.
You sit down to read a page of a book, trying to remember the information.
你坐下来读一页书，试图记住这些信息。
Maybe it's technical, maybe it's not.
也许这是技术性的，也许不是。
And then you flip the page, and you try and read a page of the very same book a little bit faster than you're comfortable while trying to retain the information.
然后你翻页，尝试以比你舒服的速度稍微快一点的速度阅读同一本书的一页，同时试图记住信息。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I find that there's this sweet spot for reading where, kind of like there's a sweet spot for running, where going a little faster sometimes actually feels like it requires less effort.
我发现阅读有一个最佳点，有点像跑步有一个最佳点，有时跑得快一点实际上感觉需要更少的努力。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do you know it?
你知道吗？
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Well, it's interesting that you say that because I actually engage in that exercise quite frequently.
嗯，你这么说很有趣，因为我实际上经常进行这项练习。
So, I'm constantly reading for my job, right?
所以，我为了工作不断读书，对吧？
If I'm not reading journal articles, I'm reading books for research that I'm doing, writing books.
如果我不阅读期刊文章，我就会阅读我正在做的研究书籍，写书。
And the way I do it is often through an audio form, and I will put the speed rate up to 2x.
我的方式通常是通过音频形式，我会把速度提高到2倍。
I'll often go as high as I can go on the app.
我经常会在应用程序上达到尽可能高的水平。
And I can retain a huge amount of information going that fast.
而且我可以这么快地记住大量信息。
But it does require that I'm very vigilant.
但这确实需要我非常警惕。
I'm really carefully attending to that audiobook when I'm moving at that speed.
当我以这样的速度移动时，我真的很仔细地听那本有声读物。
And so it's not what I would do on vacation when I'm trying to consume a book or information for fun.
因此，当我在假期中尝试阅读书籍或信息以获取乐趣时，这不是我会做的事情。
There, I just want to kind of just gently go, let the paragraph kind of pass my gaze, and take it in slowly, and almost even savor the words on the page.
在那里，我只想轻轻地走开，让这段文字从我的视线中掠过，慢慢地吸收它，甚至细细品味页面上的文字。
But in other contexts, I do channel up the velocity, and it can be incredibly engaging.
但在其他情况下，我确实会提高速度，而且它会非常有吸引力。
It can also be depleting.
它也可能会耗尽。
So when you have conversations that really you find immensely rewarding and cognitive velocity, and I love that term, is a 10 out of 10, when you're done, do you ever find it a little tiring?
因此，当你进行对话时，你确实会发现非常有价值和认知速度，我喜欢这个词，即十分之十，当你完成时，你是否觉得有点累？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Not immediately.
不是立即。
But my personal challenge in life is I don't transition states very well.
但我个人生活中的挑战是我不能很好地过渡状态。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So it takes me a little while to drop into a state, but then I stay there.
所以我需要一段时间才能进入某种状态，但随后我就呆在那里。
So I'll come out of here still thinking about and talking about this to myself or with others for a fair amount of time.
因此，当我离开这里时，我仍然会在相当长的时间内思考并与自己或与他人谈论这个问题。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Maybe on the order of half an hour to hours.
也许大约半小时到几个小时。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I've learned this about myself over the years.
多年来我对自己了解了这一点。
It's very effective for science and for certain things, less effective for other areas of life.
它对于科学和某些事情非常有效，但对于生活的其他领域则不太有效。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I've learned ways to transition-
我已经学会了转变的方法-
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
faster.
更快。
But then I will notice if I do record a solo, and a guest episode, and some intros, and stuff in the same week that, yeah, on Saturday, my mind feels like it's white noise.
但后来我会注意到，如果我在同一周录制独奏、客座剧集和一些介绍，以及其他东西，是的，在周六，我的大脑感觉就像是白噪音。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I've long thought that having, I used to call them low cortisol days, just a day where I would just kind of veg.
我一直认为，我曾经称之为低皮质醇日，只是我只吃蔬菜的一天。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
And you're more tired probably on those days, huh?
那几天你可能更累，是吧？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Just let myself reset.
就让我自己重置吧。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It was actually in my list of questions to ask you about resetting, going into kind of a state of wordlessness and just letting things just spool out For an hour.
实际上，在我的问题清单中，我想问你有关重置的问题，进入一种无言的状态，让事情自然发展一个小时。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
I love it.
我喜欢它。
Abs-
绝对值-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Not trying to control anything.
不试图控制任何事情。
Not trying to control anything in the universe-
不试图控制宇宙中的任何东西——
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
except basic functions, right?
除了基本功能，对吧？
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Right.
对。
Cooking shows, prank reels.
烹饪节目、恶作剧卷轴。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
These are yours?
这些是你的吗？
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
These are mine.
这些是我的。
We often take for granted too, that the TV in front of us is another emotion regulation device, right?
我们也经常理所当然地认为我们面前的电视是另一种情绪调节设备，对吗？
And actually, people who are creating programs are deliberately trying to push your emotions in particular directions from the score that accompanies movies and-
事实上，制作节目的人故意试图将你的情绪从电影配乐中推向特定的方向，并且——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
News
新闻动态
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
...
...
and the news.
和新闻。
So I don't want my emotions being shifted in a direction that is contrary to my goals right before I go to bed.
所以我不希望在睡觉前我的情绪转向与我的目标相反的方向。
I am at a typically high velocity level throughout the day, starting with physical stuff and exercise, to the cognitive stuff and the politicking and the science talks and all that stuff.
我一整天都处于典型的高速状态，从身体活动和锻炼开始，到认知活动、政治活动、科学演讲等等。
When I'm finally done going through my email at night, I want a good hour of just total mindless vegetation.
当我晚上终于看完电子邮件后，我想要度过一个完全无意识的美好时光。
And it puts me in a wonderfully serene state to then slide into bed, jump into that mental time travel machine, do the fantasizing or safering, and then puts me to sleep.
它让我处于一种非常平静的状态，然后滑进床上，跳进精神时间旅行机器，做幻想或安全，然后让我入睡。
And so, I really value technology there for helping me do that, and I think that is the counterpoint to having this high velocity kind of experience.
因此，我真的很重视那里的技术帮助我做到这一点，我认为这与拥有这种高速体验相反。
I will often, when I teach, sometimes I'll teach for three hours, so it's equivalent to what we're doing right now.
我经常在教学的时候，有时会教三个小时，所以相当于我们现在正在做的事情。
It is so unbelievably engaging and rewarding and this is why I got into this business.
它是如此令人难以置信的吸引力和回报，这就是我进入这个行业的原因。
You're having great conversations and you're hopefully changing the way people think about things, getting them to discover interests, all that good stuff.
你们正在进行精彩的对话，并且希望能够改变人们思考事物的方式，让他们发现兴趣，所有这些好东西。
Couple hours later when I come home, first of all, I need a little refractory period to switch out of work life into home life, which can often be challenging on the personal front because my kids are just waiting there.
几个小时后，当我回到家时，首先，我需要一点不应期从工作生活切换到家庭生活，这在个人方面通常是具有挑战性的，因为我的孩子只是在那里等待。
Well, my youngest kid is waiting there.
嗯，我最小的孩子正在那里等着。
My oldest kid is now in her room doing her own thing.
我最大的孩子现在在她的房间里做她自己的事情。
But they want to play right away, and I need some time just to decompress.
但他们想马上比赛，而我需要一些时间来减压。
But then once I do, I've got to lean further into that state.
但一旦我这样做了，我就必须进一步倾向于这种状态。
And so that is shifting and understanding how to shift.
这就是转变以及理解如何转变。
That's a different kind of shift, but it is all about shifting our states to meet our goals and trying to understand how to do that well.
这是一种不同类型的转变，但这一切都是为了改变我们的州以实现我们的目标，并试图了解如何做好这一点。
And I think that is the subtext to everything that we are talking about here.
我认为这就是我们在这里讨论的一切的潜台词。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
It's such an important aspect of life, and I do think that everyone would do well to evaluate for themselves how quickly, well, not well, not trying to place a grade on it, but how quickly or slowly one transitions into and out of states.
这是生活中如此重要的一个方面，我确实认为每个人都应该很好地自己评估一下自己的转变速度有多快、好坏，不是试图给它打分，而是评估一个人进入和离开状态的速度有多快或有多慢。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
How much of your thoughts and emotions and experience you're carrying forward from one context to the next.
你有多少想法、情感和经验从一种情境转移到了另一种情境。
I think about that a lot, and it's something that I try and work with a lot, especially arriving home and there's people at home, and you-
我经常思考这个问题，这是我经常尝试和处理的事情，尤其是回到家时，家里有人，而你-
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
want to engage in a particular way.
想要以某种特定的方式参与。
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
And there's actually a framework to help people do this that I really like, and it's interesting because you mentioned the military earlier, and there's a wonderful corollary, and I haven't experienced this too often in my life where I see something in science that scaffolds onto a practice that another organization, in this case, the military, implements to help people, number one, identify what are their, in the context of what we're talking about, what are their emotion regulation goals?
实际上有一个框架可以帮助人们做到这一点，我真的很喜欢，这很有趣，因为你之前提到了军队，并且有一个美妙的推论，我一生中并没有经常经历过这种情况，我在科学中看到一些东西可以建立在另一个组织（在这种情况下是军队）的实践上，以帮助人们，第一，在我们正在谈论的背景下，确定他们的情绪调节目标是什么？
What are their shifting goals?
他们不断变化的目标是什么？
And how do you go from having those goals to bringing them to fruition?
您如何从拥有这些目标到实现它们？
And so in the military, like special forces before they have complicated operations, they will often first think about, okay, what's our goal?
因此，在军队中，就像特种部队一样，在进行复杂的行动之前，他们通常会首先思考，好吧，我们的目标是什么？
What's the outcome we hope to achieve?
我们希望达到什么结果？
Then what are the obstacles that we can anticipate that might undermine our ability to achieve that goal?
那么我们可以预见哪些障碍可能会削弱我们实现这一目标的能力呢？
And they'll go around the room and the person in charge will cold call, Socratic style on folks, like what is the potential obstacle?
他们会在房间里走来走去，负责人会以苏格拉底式的方式冷酷地打电话给人们，比如潜在的障碍是什么？
And then for every obstacle that they identify, they come up with a very specific, if this happens, then we will do this.
然后，对于他们发现的每个障碍，他们都会提出一个非常具体的方案，如果发生这种情况，那么我们就会这样做。
And they have multiple if/then plans for each of those different obstacles.
他们针对每个不同的障碍都有多个“如果/那么”计划。
So if we go back to the research landscape, there's a technique called WOOP.
因此，如果我们回到研究领域，就会发现有一种称为 WOOP 的技术。
Have you ever heard of this?
你听说过这个吗？
Okay, so WOOP's an acronym, and I promised you I wouldn't use any acronyms, but this is a useful one to rem-- it's a mnemonic to remember something.
好的，WOOP 是一个缩写词，我向你保证我不会使用任何缩写词，但是这是一个有用的缩写词——它是记住某些东西的助记符。
So, how do you go from knowing to doing?
那么，如何从知道到行动呢？
WOOP is designed to help you do that.
WOOP 旨在帮助您做到这一点。
Because what it is explicitly designed to do is target each of the places where goal pursuit often breaks down.
因为它的明确设计目的是针对目标追求经常失败的每个地方。
Step one: what's your wish?
第一步：你的愿望是什么？
What's the thing you hope to accomplish?
你希望完成什么事情？
Let's be really clear about what that goal is.
让我们明确一下这个目标是什么。
We often don't stop to even think about what our specific concrete goals are.
我们常常不会停下来思考我们的具体目标是什么。
Okay, now that we have that goal, let's give ourselves some opportunity to energize.
好吧，现在我们有了这个目标，让我们给自己一些激励的机会。
What is the outcome we hope to achieve if we fulfill that goal?
如果我们实现这个目标，我们希望实现什么结果？
And what that's doing is giving us this motivation now, really energizing us to pursue it even further.
这给了我们现在的动力，真正激励我们进一步追求它。
Okay, we've got the outcome.
好的，我们已经得到结果了。
But now let's get realistic.
但现在让我们现实一点。
What are the obstacles?
有哪些障碍？
What are the internal obstacles that might prevent me from achieving those goals?
可能阻止我实现这些目标的内部障碍是什么？
Right?
正确的？
So let's say my wish is to be more present with my family after work.
假设我的愿望是下班后能更多地陪伴家人。
The outcome that I hope to achieve is to be a better father, a better husband, to have a richer social life in those regards.
我希望实现的结果是成为一个更好的父亲，一个更好的丈夫，在这些方面拥有更丰富的社交生活。
Now what are the obstacles?
现在有什么障碍？
Okay, internal obstacles, I got plenty.
好吧，内部障碍，我有很多。
Right?
正确的？
Like the temptation to check my email and get to inbox zero before the night is done.
就像在晚上结束之前检查我的电子邮件并进入收件箱零的诱惑一样。
Or I love my science, and I also want to do some of that work.
或者我热爱我的科学，我也想做一些这样的工作。
Or maybe I'm going to get distracted by friends who call.
或者也许我会被打电话的朋友分散注意力。
All of those things are obstacles that might get in the way Of me achieving the goal of being more present with my family.
所有这些事情都是障碍，可能会妨碍我实现更多地与家人在一起的目标。
Now, the final step, let me come up with an if-then plan.
现在，最后一步，让我想出一个“如果-那么”计划。
If I'm tempted to check my email after 7:00 or 8:00, then I'm going to remind myself about how important it is to be a dad.
如果我想在 7:00 或 8:00 之后查看电子邮件，那么我会提醒自己成为一名父亲是多么重要。
So I'll do a little reframing.
所以我会做一些重构。
If someone calls after 9:00 PM and I'm engaging in activity with my kids, then I'm going to politely decline.
如果晚上 9:00 之后有人打电话，而我正在和孩子们一起活动，那么我会礼貌地拒绝。
And you can imagine coming up with all sorts of plans for different levels of sophistication.
您可以想象针对不同复杂程度提出各种计划。
What those if-then plans do is they try to make emotion regulation automatic because they identify a specific trigger, if, that's the if, if this happens, and then they pair that trigger with a response.
这些“如果-那么”计划所做的是，他们试图使情绪调节自动进行，因为他们确定了一个特定的触发因素，如果，那就是如果，如果发生这种情况，然后他们将该触发因素与反应配对。
If, then.
如果，那么。
If, then.
如果，那么。
You rehearse that.
你排练一下。
And this way, when the trigger occurs, boom.
这样，当触发发生时，轰隆隆。
You don't have to stop and think, "What should I do?
你不必停下来思考：“我应该做什么？
How should I behave?" You've got the plan, and you implement it.
我该怎么表现？”你已经制定了计划，并且执行它。
I've got if-then plans for chatter.
我已经有了聊天的“如果-那么”计划。
If the chatter strikes, then I do distant self-talk and mental time travel.
如果喋喋不休，我就会进行遥远的自言自语和精神时间旅行。
If the chatter is too overwhelming and those two tools don't work, then I go to nature, and I go to my chatter advisors.
如果喋喋不休的话题太多，而这两个工具不起作用，那么我就会去大自然，然后去找我的喋喋不休的顾问。
And so I have these if-then plans that are linked up with my goals.
所以我有这些与我的目标相关的“如果-那么”计划。
And that's an important technology that I think we can invite people to try to exercise in their own lives to make it more likely that they will achieve their regulatory goals.
这是一项重要的技术，我认为我们可以邀请人们尝试在自己的生活中运用它，以使他们更有可能实现监管目标。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I love it.
我喜欢它。
So WOOP, spelled W-O-O-P, the W, if I have this correct, is what's the goal?
那么 WOOP，拼写为 W-O-O-P，W，如果我没记错的话，目标是什么？
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
What's your wish?
你的愿望是什么？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What's your wish?
你的愿望是什么？
The first O is the opportunity to energize yourself around achieving that wish, AKA motivation.
第一个 O 是为实现这一愿望而激励自己的机会，又称动机。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
That's right.
没错。
What's the outcome you hope to achieve?
您希望达到什么结果？
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Great.
太棒了。
Okay.
好的。
Even better because of what you said was shorter.
更好的是因为你说的更短。
The first O is what's the outcome you hope to achieve?
第一个O是你希望达到的结果是什么？
The second O, what are the obstacles you can anticipate?
第二个O，你可以预见到的障碍是什么？
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
That's right.
没错。
And in the research space, it's mostly been personal obstacles, but you can generalize out as the Navy SEALs do, as an example.
在研究领域，这主要是个人障碍，但你可以像海豹突击队那样进行概括，例如。
That's the branch of the military I was referring to that essentially uses a similar kind of framework to, now you have me self-conscious about using the word optimize, to optimize the way they respond to missions and challenges.
这就是我所指的军事部门，它本质上使用类似的框架，现在你让我自觉地使用“优化”这个词来优化他们应对任务和挑战的方式。
So they're not only dealing with internal obstacles, obviously, but also ones from the world around them.
因此，显然，他们不仅要应对内部障碍，还要应对来自周围世界的障碍。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Don't worry about using the word optimize.
不用担心使用“优化”这个词。
You did it optimally, and we'll soon squelch any pejorative around optimize during this episode.
你做得很好，我们很快就会在这一集中消除任何关于优化的贬义词。
And then the P in WOOP is the plan, an if-then plan.
然后WOOP中的P就是计划，一个如果-那么计划。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So it's not a vague plan.
所以这不是一个模糊的计划。
It's a very specific plan so that you know exactly which strategies and steps to implement should A occur, B occur, C occur.
这是一个非常具体的计划，以便您确切地知道如果 A 发生、B 发生、C 发生时要实施哪些策略和步骤。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
That's right.
没错。
And so it's a general framework, which in part is I think why it has so much value, and there's research behind this showing it can help people achieve various kinds of goals.
所以这是一个通用框架，我认为这在一定程度上是它具有如此大价值的原因，并且背后的研究表明它可以帮助人们实现各种目标。
Now, there of course will be many situations that you have not developed WOOPs for, and that's okay because you're going to have all of these other tools in your toolbox to manage those situations on the fly when they occur.
现在，当然会有很多情况您还没有开发 WOOP，这没关系，因为您的工具箱中将拥有所有这些其他工具，可以在这些情况发生时即时管理它们。
But then once you encounter new situations and you discover what tools are effective, then you learn.
但是，一旦您遇到新情况并发现哪些工具有效，您就会学习。
You create your WOOP, and then you could become more strategic, automatic, and effortless with how you engage them down the road.
你创建了你的 WOOP，然后你就可以在与他们互动的方式上变得更有战略性、自动化和毫不费力。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Earlier, you mentioned attentional spotlights, and I'm fascinated by this.
早些时候，您提到了注意力聚光灯，我对此很着迷。
I know that most people hear that we can't multitask, but primates, again, of which we are, old world primates in particular, can do covert attention.
我知道大多数人都听说我们不能同时处理多项任务，但是灵长类动物，尤其是旧世界的灵长类动物，可以进行隐蔽的注意力。
If I were not completely focused on you, I could focus an attentional spotlight on you and your voice and pay attention to you, but I could also monitor components of the room.
如果我没有完全专注于你，我可以将注意力集中在你和你的声音上并注意你，但我也可以监视房间的各个部分。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I can merge those spotlights.
我可以合并那些聚光灯。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I can divorce those spotlights.
我可以摆脱那些聚光灯。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But it's very hard to generate three kind of compatible attentional spotlights at once.
但同时产生三种兼容的注意力聚光灯是非常困难的。
It seems like we kind of have two.
看来我们有两个。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Maybe some people can manage three, but I'm betting most people can't manage more than three.
也许有些人可以管理三个，但我敢打赌大多数人不能管理超过三个。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Well, and I think it becomes especially difficult to manage even one when you're experiencing an emotional episode that is essentially hijacking your attention.
嗯，我认为，当你正在经历一场本质上劫持了你的注意力的情绪事件时，管理就会变得特别困难。
And attention's really important to talk about for a few reasons.
出于以下几个原因，谈论注意力确实很重要。
So number one, as a species, we have the most sophisticated attention deployment system on the planet, right?
那么第一，作为一个物种，我们拥有地球上最复杂的注意力部署系统，对吧？
We have the ability to strategically deploy our attention.
我们有能力战略性地部署我们的注意力。
So we can willfully place it on the things we want or yank it away from the things we don't want, or we can saccade our attention back and forth.
因此，我们可以随意地将它放在我们想要的东西上，或者将它从我们不想要的东西上拉开，或者我们可以来回扫视我们的注意力。
When it comes to emotion, though, we're often taught certain maxims about how to deploy our attention that I think can sometimes be problematic because they fall into the category of prescriptive advice about magic pills.
然而，当谈到情感时，我们经常被教导某些关于如何部署注意力的格言，我认为这些格言有时可能会出现问题，因为它们属于关于神奇药丸的规定性建议的范畴。
So often we hear, for example, that when it comes to chatter or really big emotions, things that you're anxious about or fearful, you should not avoid the problem.
例如，我们经常听到，当涉及到喋喋不休或非常大的情绪时，您担心或害怕的事情，您不应该回避这个问题。
You should focus on it.
你应该专注于它。
And there's been a lot of research on this, and what we have learned is, on the one hand, chronically avoiding things is not good.
关于这一点已经有很多研究，我们了解到，一方面，长期回避事情是不好的。
It's associated with all sorts of negative outcomes for our emotional lives and beyond, our physical lives, too, our health.
它与我们的情感生活以及其他方面、我们的物质生活以及我们的健康的各种负面结果有关。
But oftentimes, the signature for adaptively coping with emotional curveballs is being able to focus on the problem at hand Deploy your attention elsewhere, take a break, and then come back to it.
但通常情况下，适应性应对情绪曲线球的标志是能够专注于手头的问题，将注意力转移到其他地方，休息一下，然后再回来处理。
And so this was a question actually I learned from my grandmother inadvertently.
所以这实际上是我无意中从我祖母那里学到的一个问题。
My grandmother was this very interesting woman who grew up in Poland during World War II, had her entire family slaughtered during the war, one of these kind of devastating experiences, lived in the forest for years, back and forth, all this terrible stuff, family massacred and so forth.
我的祖母是一位非常有趣的女人，她在第二次世界大战期间在波兰长大，她的整个家庭在战争期间被屠杀，这是一种毁灭性的经历，她在森林里生活了很多年，来来回回，所有这些可怕的事情，家庭被屠杀等等。
And growing up, she made it out of the war, moved to the States.
在成长过程中，她摆脱了战争，搬到了美国。
I remember being just so exceptionally curious about what she experienced and how she was able to overcome it.
我记得我对她经历过的事情以及她如何克服它感到非常好奇。
And whenever I would ask her questions about this, she would always say, "Don't ask me why or what happened.
每当我问她有关此事的问题时，她总是说：“不要问我为什么或发生了什么。
Why is a crooked letter." That was a phrase she would use, which was really interesting because she didn't speak English very well at all, heavily accented language, but she'd mastered this curious idiom.
怎么字是歪的。”这是她会使用的一个短语，这真的很有趣，因为她的英语说得不太好，口音很重，但她已经掌握了这个奇怪的习语。
Why is a crooked letter?
字母为什么是歪的？
In other words, nothing good comes from dredging up the past or really trying to understand things.
换句话说，挖掘过去或真正尝试理解事物不会带来任何好处。
Your life is awesome.
你的生活真棒。
You're in a safe place.
你在一个安全的地方。
You have a loving family.
你有一个充满爱的家庭。
Just enjoy life.
只是享受生活。
So she's trying to shelter me.
所以她想庇护我。
So she, for most of the time that I would know her during the year, she would never focus on this horrific event that she experienced except one day a year, there would be this remembrance day, and we'd all pile into a synagogue, and we'd talk about, or I would listen to them talk about their experiences, and the emotions would come out.
所以，在我一年中认识她的大部分时间里，她从来不会把注意力集中在她经历的这个可怕的事件上，除了一年中的某一天，会有这个纪念日，我们都会挤进一个犹太教堂，我们会谈论，或者我会听他们谈论他们的经历，情绪就会出来。
So she would dose her exposure to the emotional information.
所以她会减少接触情感信息的机会。
Turns out what she was doing is she was being strategic in how she deployed her attention.
事实证明，她正在做的是，她正在战略性地部署自己的注意力。
She was focusing on the emotional issue at times when it was productive for her, but at other times when it didn't serve her well, she occupied her attention with other kinds of thoughts and experiences.
有时，当情感问题对她有益时，她会专注于情感问题；但有时，当这对她没有好处时，她就会用其他类型的想法和经历来占据注意力。
And a large literature is now beginning to emerge, which shows that this capacity to be flexible in how we wield our attention when it comes to sources of emotional struggles, can be a really, really useful asset.
现在开始出现大量文献，这些文献表明，当涉及到情感斗争的根源时，我们灵活运用注意力的能力可能是一项非常非常有用的资产。
And so I think it's important to remind folks that these blunt prescriptions to always approach a thing, a problem, or always avoid it, they aren't always true, and that often the magic that surrounds emotion regulation, I mean the magic not supernaturally, but the beauty surrounding it, is in being really facile in how we can deploy our attention.
因此，我认为重要的是要提醒人们，这些直率的处方总是处理一件事、一个问题，或者总是避免它，它们并不总是正确的，而且通常围绕情绪调节的魔力，我的意思不是超自然的魔力，而是它周围的美丽，在于我们能够真正轻松地部署我们的注意力。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Really appreciate you sharing that personal anecdote.
非常感谢您分享个人轶事。
I've long struggled with the fact that so many of the sayings that we're fed, like, "Absence makes the heart grow fonder." Oh, yeah?
长期以来，我一直在与这样一个事实作斗争：我们被灌输的许多俗语，比如“缺席使心变得更亲近”。哦，是吗？
Well, I also heard, "Out of sight, out of mind," so which one is it?
嗯，我还听说过“眼不见心不烦”，那么到底是哪一个呢？
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And that's why eventually I became a scientist.
这就是为什么我最终成为一名科学家。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because it's both, right?
因为两者都是，对吗？
And you can see this in the fields of nutrition and exercise.
你可以在营养和运动领域看到这一点。
There are certain core truths, and I think the goal is always to get to those core truths.
有一些核心真理，我认为目标始终是达到这些核心真理。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then there's some flexibility around those truths.
然后围绕这些事实存在一些灵活性。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There's margins of error.
存在误差范围。
I love what she shared, "Why is a crooked letter?" It reminds me of the Bob Dylan, "Don't Look Back."
我喜欢她分享的内容：“为什么一封信是歪的？”这让我想起了鲍勃·迪伦的《Don’t Look Back》。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
These are profound questions.
这些都是深刻的问题。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
How much of our consciousness should we use to enforce that we don't spend time thinking about the past and therefore miss out on the present and creating a best possible future?
我们应该用多少意识来强制我们不花时间思考过去，从而错过现在并创造一个最好的未来？
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And yet we don't want elements from the past to kind of ferret into our psyche and then show up in ways that are destructive.
然而，我们不希望过去的元素进入我们的心灵，然后以破坏性的方式出现。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So it's a complicated dance.
所以这是一个复杂的舞蹈。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Oh, our emotional lives are anything but straightforward, but we do have guideposts to steer us in how we deploy our attention.
哦，我们的情感生活绝非直截了当，但我们确实有路标来指导我们如何部署注意力。
And so a couple of common heuristics that I like to use and describe to folks is, so let's say something bad happens, and you divert your attention away.
我喜欢向人们使用和描述的一些常见启发法是，假设发生了一些不好的事情，你转移了注意力。
You distract with a positive distraction, not a harmful distraction, and then the problem doesn't resurface.
你用积极的干扰而不是有害的干扰来分散注意力，然后问题就不会再次出现。
Keep going.
继续前进。
You don't have to go back in time.
你不必回到过去。
I experienced some friction sometimes with my dad around this issue.
有时我和父亲在这个问题上会发生一些摩擦。
So my parents were divorced, and I dealt with the baggage surrounding that experience earlier in my life, and when I think about it now, I don't get upset.
所以我的父母离婚了，我早年就处理了围绕那段经历的包袱，现在回想起来，我并没有感到沮丧。
I understand why it happened.
我明白为什么会这样。
I love both of my parents.
我爱我的父母。
I've moved on.
我已经继续前进了。
I'm well-adjusted.
我已经适应得很好了
But my dad likes to talk about this a lot whenever we speak, and he will often bring it up.
但每次我们说话的时候，我爸爸就很喜欢谈论这个，他也经常会提起这件事。
And when he does, I'm like, "Well, we don't have to talk about it.
当他这样做时，我会说：“好吧，我们不必谈论它。
I'm actually totally fine.
我其实完全没问题。
This isn't a source of ongoing distress." Sometimes we're able to make sense of what has happened to us and move on with our lives, and when that happens, that's our cognitive machinery operating really, really well.
这并不是持续困扰的根源。”有时我们能够理解发生在我们身上的事情并继续我们的生活，当这种情况发生时，我们的认知机制就运转得非常非常好。
We don't have to go back and revisit every single thing.
我们不必回去重新审视每件事。
If, on the other hand, we are trying to get a mental break, we're distracting, and we find thoughts about these experiences continually intruding into our awareness and being distracting, that is then a cue.
另一方面，如果我们试图让精神休息一下，我们就会分散注意力，并且我们发现有关这些经历的想法不断侵入我们的意识并分散我们的注意力，这就是一个暗示。
Okay, well, let's focus in on it.
好吧，那我们重点说一下吧。
And then once you focus in on it, of course, there are multiple ways you can engage with that experience.
当然，一旦你专注于它，你就可以通过多种方式参与这种体验。
Sometimes just bathing yourself in the emotional pain can be useful for facilitating a kind of what we would call habituation, so getting used to the discomfort and realizing it's not so bad to be in the presence of those negative thoughts.
有时，只是让自己沐浴在情感痛苦中，有助于促进一种我们所说的习惯，所以习惯这种不适，并意识到存在这些消极想法并不是那么糟糕。
Maybe you want to reframe how you think about the circumstance, and we have wonderful cognitive apparatus to help us reframe things.
也许你想重新构建你对这种情况的看法，而我们有很棒的认知装置来帮助我们重新构建事物。
We can look at it from different perspectives.
我们可以从不同的角度来看待它。
We can focus on the silver lining.
我们可以专注于一线希望。
We can contextualize it.
我们可以将其结合起来。
So you have lots of tools to engage with things once you refocus, but you don't always need to refocus on the problem.
因此，一旦您重新集中注意力，您就有很多工具可以处理事情，但您并不总是需要重新集中精力解决问题。
So you want to be flexible.
所以你要保持灵活性。
Flexibility in how you deploy your attention is really the mantra that I personally live by based on what I know of how all of this works.
根据我对这一切如何运作的了解，灵活地部署注意力确实是我个人的座右铭。
There are a couple of caveats I want to throw out there When I'm talking about distraction and avoiding, I'm talking about healthy distractions, healthy avoidance.
我想提出一些警告，当我谈论分心和避免时，我谈论的是健康的分心、健康的回避。
There are unhealthier forms of avoidance that we know definitively are not productive, like substance abuse.
我们知道，有一些不健康的回避方式毫无成效，比如药物滥用。
We also know that if you adopt a blunt rule of always just chronically avoiding, not good.
我们还知道，如果你采取生硬的规则，总是长期回避，那就不好了。
So you want to be balanced.
所以你想要保持平衡。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Could we add to the list of tools for avoidance that tend to be unhealthy?
我们可以添加一些避免不健康的工具吗？
And this isn't one that I default to, but I know someone that told me that she used to default into overconsumption of story.
这不是我默认的，但我知道有人告诉我，她过去常常默认过度消费故事。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Like of audiobooks, not that audiobooks are bad, but of fiction audiobooks, and just kind of when there was a problem, rather than dealing with the problem, overindulgence in narratives that would just consume the mind.
就像有声读物一样，并不是说有声读物不好，而是小说有声读物，只是当出现问题时，而不是解决问题，过度沉迷于叙述只会消耗心灵。
I guess any behavior where we're not dealing with the kind of itch that we probably need to scratch, at least for a short while-
我想任何我们没有处理我们可能需要挠痒的痒的行为，至少在短时间内-
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
is probably going to be maladaptive in the long run.
从长远来看可能会出现适应不良。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
You want to listen to what your mind and body are telling you.
你想听听你的思想和身体在告诉你什么。
And so if you find that the problem keeps resurfacing, that's a cue you need to engage and deal with it.
因此，如果您发现问题不断出现，则表明您需要参与并处理它。
But a lot of the experiences we have on a daily basis which may not be positive, negative experiences, as time moves on, sometimes that's all we need to keep going with our lives.
但是，随着时间的推移，我们每天经历的很多经历可能不是积极的，也可能是消极的经历，有时这就是我们继续生活所需的全部。
And we do see in the literature that when you impose a particular view on folks, like you have to do it this way, that tends not to work out very well.
我们确实在文献中看到，当你将特定的观点强加给人们时，比如你必须这样做，结果往往不会很好。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Most of what we've been discussing today is one's emotional life and experience and chatter and inner narratives with oneself and their environment, technology, nature, and to some extent, relationships.
我们今天讨论的大部分内容是一个人的情感生活和经历，以及与自己和他们的环境、技术、自然以及某种程度上的关系的闲聊和内心叙述。
But one powerful aspect of emotions that I think a lot of people wonder about and frankly participate in is this notion of emotional contagion.
但我认为很多人都想知道并坦率地参与情感的一个强大方面，那就是情感传染的概念。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Both positive and negative.
既有积极的也有消极的。
I think of, you mentioned football's big in Michigan, right?
我想，你提到密歇根州的足球很盛行，对吧？
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I remember from the movie "The Big Chill," they actually go out and play football.
我记得电影《大寒》中，他们实际上出去踢足球。
I think they were all alum of University of Michigan.
我认为他们都是密歇根大学的校友。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
It's a religion in-
这是一种宗教——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
...
...
the city that I live in.
我居住的城市。
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is it, right?
是吗？
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
And how many people go to one of these games?
有多少人去看其中一场比赛？
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
It's called The Big House, actually the largest football stadium in the country.
它被称为“大房子”，实际上是该国最大的足球场。
So close to 110,000.
如此接近110,000。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Whoa.
哇哦。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's a lot of people.
那是很多人。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
It's a lot of people, and we sing in unison.
人很多，我们齐声唱歌。
And I never really was into football before moving to Ann Arbor, and now I embrace it.
在搬到安娜堡之前我从未真正喜欢过足球，但现在我拥抱了它。
It helps when you're the national championships, which we were champions, which we were last year.
当你参加全国锦标赛时，这会有所帮助，我们去年是冠军。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Congratulations.
恭喜。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
We're working on it this year.
今年我们正在努力。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Cool.
酷。
Maybe sometime I'll go to a game.
也许有一天我会去看一场比赛。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I don't dislike football.
我并不讨厌足球。
I like football.
我喜欢足球。
I don't think I've ever been to a professional football game.
我想我从来没有看过职业足球比赛。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Oh, we should definitely have you out there.
哦，我们绝对应该让你在那里。
It is a load of fun.
这很有趣。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
I'll skip one game of the Globetrotter season- ...
我将跳过环球旅行者赛季的一场比赛 - ...
to go to a Michigan game.
去看密歇根州的比赛。
Emotional contagion occurs in football stadiums.
情绪传染发生在足球场。
It occurs in digesting news.
它发生在消化新闻时。
We just had an election, so a lot of emotional contagion in essentially opposite directions post-election.
我们刚刚举行了一次选举，因此选举后很多情绪在本质上朝着相反的方向蔓延。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And on and on.
不断地。
What do we know about emotional contagion?
我们对情绪传染了解多少？
It makes sense to me why we would be so prone to it, but where are the sort of rumble strips, so to speak, and the ditch on emotional contagion?
对我来说，为什么我们如此容易出现这种情况是有道理的，但是可以说，那种隆隆声带和情绪传染的沟渠在哪里呢？
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's a driving analogy.
这是一个驾驶的比喻。
The rumble strips are the go, go, go, go, go, go that when you start to drift towards the ditch.
当你开始漂向沟渠时，隆隆声带就是“走，走，走，走，走，走”。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Obviously the ditch is losing control in the negative direction-
显然沟渠正在向负方向失去控制——
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
maladaptive direction.
适应不良的方向。
But how can we start to identify the rumble strips in emotional contagion?
但我们怎样才能开始识别情绪传染中的隆隆声呢？
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So emotional contagion is a very powerful phenomenon.
所以情绪传染是一种非常强大的现象。
Emotions can spread within seconds.
情绪可以在几秒钟内传播。
We tend to catch emotions more quickly when we're not sure of how we should be thinking or feeling in a particular situation, so we often are referencing other people in those instances as a source of information.
当我们不确定在特定情况下应该如何思考或感受时，我们往往会更快地捕捉到情绪，因此我们经常在这种情况下引用其他人作为信息来源。
The people around us, of course, are a rich source of information.
当然，我们周围的人是丰富的信息来源。
This is also why we compare ourselves to other people so frequently, right?
这也是我们如此频繁地将自己与其他人进行比较的原因，对吧？
We're trying to learn something about how to respond.
我们正在尝试了解如何应对。
And we know it can have these cascading effects, both in everyday life, in both the positive and the negative direction.
我们知道它会在日常生活中产生积极和消极的连锁反应。
But also, in the digital world, we see these emotions that can spread really fast, too.
而且，在数字世界中，我们看到这些情绪也可以快速传播。
So it's a very powerful phenomenon.
所以这是一个非常强大的现象。
It's one I'm often very attentive to when I come into the classroom.
当我走进教室时，我经常非常注意这一点。
You tend to not want to have a negative mood spread through an audience when you are teaching to them, and so you're sensitive to certain kinds of displays or tones that might convey that kind of emotional response.
当您向观众授课时，您往往不希望负面情绪在观众中传播，因此您对可能传达这种情绪反应的某些类型的展示或语气很敏感。
And I think it's something that we need to be increasingly aware of, especially when we're working in any kind of group context.
我认为我们需要越来越意识到这一点，尤其是当我们在任何类型的团队环境中工作时。
Like when you're working on a team, it is really important to keep the team at the level of emotional tone that you feel.
就像当你在一个团队中工作时一样，让团队保持你所感受到的情绪基调非常重要。
If you're the leader or even just a member of this team that is committed to it, you want to keep that tone at the most productive level, because if it dips below or above, that can sabotage how well you perform.
如果你是领导者，甚至只是这个致力于此的团队的成员，你希望将这种基调保持在最有成效的水平，因为如果它低于或高于，就会破坏你的表现。
And there's a lot of research on that.
这方面有很多研究。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Both from directing my laboratory for a good number of years and from teaching and from certainly the podcast, which is a small team of seven of us, I'm familiar with what you just described, and also from being a camp counselor.
无论是多年来指导我的实验室、教学还是播客（我们是一个由七个人组成的小团队），我都很熟悉你刚才描述的内容，也来自作为一名营地辅导员。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's probably where I learned it, being a summer camp counselor when I was in college.
这可能就是我在大学时担任夏令营辅导员时学到的。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That if you get Two or three kids that are really pissed off about what you have to do over the next couple of hours-
如果你有两三个孩子对你在接下来的几个小时内要做的事情感到非常生气-
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Oh
噢
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
it can send everything south.
它可以将一切传送到南方。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
You have to nip that in the bud right away.
你必须立即将其消灭在萌芽状态。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
You have to repair that immediately.
你必须立即修复它。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
And I'm very attentive to this when I am in group contexts, especially when I'm leading those groups, those teams, those labs.
当我在团队环境中时，特别是当我领导这些团队、团队、实验室时，我会非常注意这一点。
Really making sure that that kind of negative mojo does not spread.
真正确保这种负面魔力不会传播。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do you think nowadays, on university campuses, there's more of a tendency for students to raise their hands and say, "Let's spark an issue"?
您认为现在在大学校园里，学生是否更倾向于举手说“让我们引发一个问题”？
And I'll just preface this by saying, a guy that I worked for as an undergraduate, a physiologist, he told me that when he was teaching during the Vietnam War era, he would be in the middle of a lecture about cold thermogenesis physiology, his area of expertise, and someone would just stand up and say, "What about the war in Vietnam?" And I remember him telling me that story.
我只想在序言中说，我本科时工作的一个人，一名生理学家，他告诉我，当他在越南战争时期教书时，他会在讲授冷生热生理学，这是他的专业领域，有人会站起来说，“越南战争怎么样？”我记得他给我讲过这个故事。
I thought, "That's outrageous.
我想：“这太离谱了。
Really?" He said, "Oh, yeah, all the time." And you would have to stop-
真的吗？”他说：“哦，是的，一直都是。”而你必须停下来——
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and have to acknowledge it and let them have their expression.
并必须承认这一点并让他们表达自己的意见。
I thought, "Well, that's wild." Now we're living in times when-
我想：“嗯，这太疯狂了。”现在我们生活在这样的时代——
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that's not all that unusual in the university classroom-
这在大学课堂上并不罕见——
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and on campuses.
和在校园里。
So and online.
所以，在线。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So, it's interesting that that previous example from the 1960s, '70s-
所以，有趣的是，之前 20 世纪 60 年代、70 年代的例子——
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Is now relevant, yeah
现在是相关的，是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
now very relevant again.
现在又非常相关了。
So, do we let people emote?
那么，我们让人们表达情感吗？
Or, as a summer camp counselor, someone pulled me aside and said, "These kids have a lot of energy, and my only advice is be a channel, not a dam."
或者，作为夏令营辅导员，有人把我拉到一边说：“这些孩子精力充沛，我唯一的建议是成为一个渠道，而不是一个水坝。”
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Something that I never forgot.
我永远不会忘记的事情。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's very useful in other areas of life, too.
它在生活的其他领域也非常有用。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Be a channel, not a dam.
成为渠道，而不是水坝。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So how do you be a channel, not a dam, when people are having the need to externalize negative stuff, and it holds the potential for emotional contagion?
那么，当人们需要将负面事物外化，并且它具有情绪传染的潜力时，你如何成为一个渠道，而不是一个水坝呢？
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Well, I haven't experienced firsthand the phenomenon that you're describing in the classroom, but obviously a lot of my colleagues have, and we see this playing out in lots of universities.
嗯，我没有亲身经历过你在课堂上描述的现象，但显然我的很多同事都经历过，而且我们看到这种情况在很多大学上演。
These are very turbulent times.
这是一个非常动荡的时期。
Turbulence activates emotion, and we know, going back to an earlier part of our conversation, when people experience strong emotions are often motivated to share those emotions with other people.
动荡会激活情绪，我们知道，回到我们谈话的早期部分，当人们经历强烈的情绪时，往往会被激励与其他人分享这些情绪。
That often takes the form of vocalizing them, and that can elicit contagion throughout.
这通常采取发声的形式，这可以引起整个过程的传染。
And so now we're beginning to actually understand how the emotional processes are making their way through people, groups, and societies.
所以现在我们开始真正理解情感过程是如何在人、群体和社会中发挥作用的。
What should you do in those circumstances?
在这种情况下你应该做什么？
Well, I think it depends a lot on the context and what the nature of the emotional response is, and is the emotion becoming really counterproductive or harmful?
嗯，我认为这在很大程度上取决于背景和情绪反应的本质是什么，情绪是否真的会适得其反或有害？
And there are differing views about when you should intervene and how to do it.
对于何时应该干预以及如何干预存在不同的看法。
I think in general, though, you bring the playbook of always wanting to validate your emotional experience as a genuine response that you are having to the situation.
不过，我认为总的来说，你总是想验证你的情感体验，作为你对这种情况的真实反应。
In most cases, yes, we can try to purposefully experience an emotion in a duplicitous way, but I think in a lot of cases, the kinds of phenomena we're talking about, these are just honest emotional reactions.
在大多数情况下，是的，我们可以尝试以两面性的方式有目的地体验一种情绪，但我认为在很多情况下，我们正在谈论的各种现象，这些只是诚实的情绪反应。
These are really difficult times, and I think trying to understand where those emotions are coming from is often a really great first step.
现在是非常困难的时期，我认为尝试了解这些情绪从何而来通常是非常好的第一步。
I mentioned to you before we started talking, Matt, I had this wonderful conflict mediator come to one of my classes recently to talk about how do you not just engage with emotional groups, but how do you engage with emotional groups at the same time that are having emotions because of one another?
在我们开始谈话之前，我向你提到过，马特，我最近请了一位出色的冲突调解员来到我的一堂课上，谈论你如何不仅与情绪群体打交道，而且如何与因彼此而产生情绪的情绪群体打交道？
And the approach that she has found to be very successful in her career as a mediator is to ask folks to train them not to enter conversations to try to change each other's minds, but to enter those conversations with a state of humility and curiosity and genuine interest in first and foremost trying to just understand the other group's position.
她发现在她作为调解人的职业生涯中非常成功的方法是要求人们训练他们不要进入对话以试图改变彼此的想法，而是以谦逊、好奇和真正感兴趣的状态进入这些对话，首先尝试了解对方的立场。
I haven't done that myself, but it strikes me as a pretty viable approach to a first step to having conversations about difficult issues.
我自己还没有这样做过，但我觉得这是就困难问题进行对话的第一步的相当可行的方法。
And it makes me think about how in the lab, we often define wisdom.
这让我思考在实验室中我们经常如何定义智慧。
So wisdom is this concept of it indexes how well you are able to deal with social situations involving uncertainty.
所以智慧这个概念反映了你处理涉及不确定性的社交情况的能力。
We don't know how these social situations are going to play out, and wise individuals are skillful in navigating those circumstances.
我们不知道这些社交情况将如何发展，而聪明的人善于应对这些情况。
How do you define wisdom?
你如何定义智慧？
What are its features?
其特点是什么？
Well, a few of its core features are humility, recognizing that I don't know everything, a commitment to perspective-taking, putting myself in the other person's shoes, dialecticism, recognizing that the world is constantly in flux and circumstances are changing, and we need to be aware of that.
嗯，它的一些核心特征是谦虚，认识到我并不知道一切，致力于换位思考，设身处地为他人着想，辩证法，认识到世界在不断变化，环境在变化，我们需要意识到这一点。
And then also a general orientation towards the social good, doing good in the world.
然后还有对社会公益、在世界上行善的总体定位。
And it strikes me that entering these difficult situations with that kind of mindset is potentially productive for bridging divides.
让我印象深刻的是，以这种心态进入这些困难的局面可能会有效地弥合分歧。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I love that.
我喜欢那个。
And what an appropriate area for us to round up in.
这是一个多么适合我们聚集的地方啊。
I think that right now, clearly things are tense, but what you've talked about today, and at least from what I understand of how the human mind works in and around emotions, our own and observing others and potentially contagion, is that these tools can really help us do better, that they're not just research papers, they are implementable ...
我认为现在，显然事情很紧张，但你今天谈到的，至少从我对人类思维如何在情感、我们自己的、观察他人的以及潜在的传染中运作的理解来看，这些工具确实可以帮助我们做得更好，它们不仅仅是研究论文，它们是可以实施的......
chunks of knowledge, and in some cases, such as what you've discussed today, real gems.
大量的知识，在某些情况下，比如你今天讨论的，是真正的瑰宝。
So for that reason, and for taking the time out of your research schedule, I mean, you're a researcher, you're a teacher, you're a dad, you're a husband, you do many things.
因此，出于这个原因，为了从你的研究日程中抽出时间，我的意思是，你是一名研究员，你是一名老师，你是一个父亲，你是一个丈夫，你做了很多事情。
You make it to football games somehow also and to the gym, where you don't drop dumbbells on people's faces intentionally-
你也能以某种方式参加足球比赛和健身房，在那里你不会故意把哑铃扔到人们脸上——
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
I do not
我不
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
because you realize the dire consequences.
因为你意识到了可怕的后果。
You're just doing a ton of amazing work in the world.
你只是在世界上做了很多令人惊奇的工作。
I'd heard about and read "Chatter" some time ago, and I just think it's incredible what you've brought to people's attention that has always, no pun intended, been on and in their minds.
我不久前听说过并读过《Chatter》，我只是觉得你让人们注意到的东西令人难以置信，而且一直在他们的脑海中，没有双关语的意思。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I'm sure there are others in your field, but I want to specifically thank you on behalf of myself and everyone listening and watching for paying so much careful research attention and public education attention to this thing that we call chatter, and the inner voice, and emotion regulation because this is really what makes up our lives.
我确信在你的领域还有其他人，但我想代表我自己和每个听众和观看者特别感谢你对我们所说的喋喋不休、内心的声音和情绪调节给予如此仔细的研究关注和公共教育关注，因为这确实构成了我们的生活。
It's as important, in my mind, certainly as cardiovascular health or any other aspect of mental or physical health.
在我看来，它当然与心血管健康或心理或身体健康的任何其他方面一样重要。
So on behalf of myself and everyone listening and watching, thank you so much.
我谨代表我自己以及所有聆听和观看的人，非常感谢你们。
Please come back again because your research is evolving.
请再次回来，因为您的研究正在不断发展。
We'd love to hear about the next steps.
我们很想知道接下来的步骤。
We'll definitely provide links to your work and to the upcoming book, which comes out in February of 2025.
我们一定会提供您的作品和即将出版的新书的链接，该书将于 2025 年 2 月出版。
Do you want to tell us the title of the book?
您想告诉我们这本书的书名吗？
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
That's right.
没错。
It's called "Shift: Managing Your Emotions So They Don't Manage You."
它被称为“转变：管理你的情绪，这样他们就不会管理你”。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Great, and presumably, it's available for presale now or soon?
太棒了，想必它现在或很快就可以预售了？
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay, great.
好的，太好了。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
It's available, and it is essentially designed-- It is written to kind of just open the book on what emotions are, what we often get wrong about them, and what are the tools that we have to rein them in.
它是可用的，而且本质上是经过设计的——它的编写只是为了打开这本书，了解什么是情绪、我们对情绪经常犯的错误以及我们必须控制情绪的工具是什么。
And my hope is that it addresses this big problem that I think we've been facing for a while, which is how to wrangle these emotions that sometimes get the best of us.
我希望它能解决我们长期以来一直面临的一个大问题，即如何处理这些有时会让我们变得最好的情绪。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Great.
太棒了。
Well, I am personally going to order a copy by presale.
好吧，我个人打算通过预售订购一本。
I insist on that.
我坚持这一点。
I don't take free copies.
我不接受免费副本。
I buy books because I'm a believer in books.
我买书是因为我是书的信徒。
So thank you for writing "Shift," and come back and talk to us again.
感谢您写下“Shift”，并再次回来与我们交谈。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Well, thanks for having me.
嗯，谢谢你邀请我。
It was an incredible conversation, so appreciate it.
这是一次令人难以置信的谈话，所以很感激。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I feel the same way.
我也有同样的感觉。
Thank you so much.
太感谢了。
Dr. Ethan Kross:
伊森·克罗斯博士：
Thank you.
谢谢你。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Ethan Kross.
感谢您参加今天与 Ethan Kross 博士的讨论。
I hope you found it to be as informative and as actionable as I did.
我希望您能像我一样发现它内容丰富且具有可操作性。
To learn more about Dr. Kross's work and to find links to his previous book, "Chatter", as well as his forthcoming book, "Shift: Managing Your Emotions So They Do Not Manage You", please see the show note captions.
要了解有关克罗斯博士的工作的更多信息，并找到他之前的书《Chatter》以及他即将出版的书《转变：管理你的情绪，这样他们就不会管理你》的链接，请参阅节目注释标题。
If you're learning from and/or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel.
如果您正在学习和/或喜欢此播客，请订阅我们的 YouTube 频道。
That's a terrific zero-cost way to support us.
这是支持我们的绝佳零成本方式。
Please also click the follow button for the Huberman Lab podcast on both Spotify and Apple.
另请点击 Spotify 和 Apple 上 Huberman Lab 播客的关注按钮。
And on both Spotify and Apple, you can leave us up to a five-star review.
在 Spotify 和 Apple 上，您都可以给我们五星级的评价。
Please also check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode.
另请查看今天节目开头和整个节目中提到的赞助商。
That's the best way to support this podcast.
这是支持这个播客的最佳方式。
And if you have questions for me or comments about the podcast, or you have topics or guests you'd like me to consider for the Huberman Lab podcast, please put those in the comments section on YouTube.
如果您对我的播客有任何疑问或评论，或者您希望我在 Huberman Lab 播客中考虑一些主题或嘉宾，请将这些内容放入 YouTube 的评论部分。
I do read all the comments.
我确实阅读了所有评论。
And if you're not already following me on social media, I am Huberman Lab on all social media platforms.
如果您还没有在社交媒体上关注我，我是所有社交媒体平台上的 Huberman Lab。
So that's Instagram, X, formerly known as Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, and Threads.
这就是 Instagram、X，以前称为 Twitter、Facebook、LinkedIn 和 Threads。
And on all those platforms, I discuss science and science-related tools, some of which overlaps with the content of the Huberman Lab podcast, but much of which is distinct from the content on the Huberman Lab podcast.
在所有这些平台上，我讨论科学和与科学相关的工具，其中一些与胡伯曼实验室播客的内容重叠，但其中大部分与胡伯曼实验室播客的内容不同。
Again, that's Huberman Lab on all social media platforms.
再说一次，这就是所有社交媒体平台上的 Huberman Lab。
And if you haven't already subscribed to our Neural Network Newsletter, the Neural Network Newsletter is a zero-cost monthly newsletter that includes everything from podcast summaries to protocols in the form of brief one to three-page PDFs.
如果您还没有订阅我们的神经网络新闻通讯，神经网络新闻通讯是一份零成本的每月新闻通讯，其中包括从播客摘要到简短的一到三页 PDF 形式的协议的所有内容。
So these are protocols that describe the essential steps to take, for instance, to optimize your sleep, to improve your dopamine regulation, for deliberate cold exposure, deliberate heat exposure, all of which is available completely zero cost.
因此，这些协议描述了要采取的基本步骤，例如，优化睡眠、改善多巴胺调节、故意冷暴露、故意热暴露，所有这些都是完全零成本的。
You simply go to hubermanlab.com, go to the Menu tab in the corner, scroll down to Newsletter, and provide your email.
您只需访问 hubermanlab.com，转到角落的“菜单”选项卡，向下滚动到新闻通讯，然后提供您的电子邮件即可。
And I should point out that we do not share your email with anybody.
我应该指出，我们不会与任何人分享您的电子邮件。
Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Ethan Kross.
再次感谢您参加今天与 Ethan Kross 博士的讨论。
And last but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.
最后但并非最不重要的一点是，感谢您对科学的兴趣。