Dr. Erich Jarvis: The Neuroscience of Speech, Language & Music
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.
欢迎来到休伯曼实验室播客，我们在这里讨论科学和基于科学的日常生活工具。
I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.
我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。
Today, my guest is Dr. Erich Jarvis.
今天，我的客人是埃里希·贾维斯博士。
Dr. Jarvis is a professor at The Rockefeller University in New York City, and his laboratory studies the neurobiology of vocal learning, language, speech disorders, and remarkably, the relationship between language, music, and movement, in particular dance.
贾维斯博士是纽约市洛克菲勒大学的教授，他的实验室研究声乐学习、语言、言语障碍的神经生物学，尤其是语言、音乐和运动（尤其是舞蹈）之间的关系。
His work spans from genomics, so the very genes that make up our genome and the genomes of other species that speak and have language, such as songbirds and parrots, all the way up to neural circuits, that is the connections in the brain and body that govern our ability to learn and generate specific sounds and movements coordinated with those sounds, including hand movements, and all the way up to cognition.
他的工作涵盖基因组学，即构成我们基因组的基因以及其他会说话和有语言的物种的基因组，例如鸣禽和鹦鹉，一直到神经回路，即大脑和身体中控制我们学习和产生与这些声音协调的特定声音和动作（包括手部动作）的能力的连接，一直到认知。
That is our ability to think in specific ways based on what we are saying and the way that we comprehend what other people are saying, singing, and doing.
这是我们根据自己所说的话以及理解他人所说、所唱和所做的方式以特定方式思考的能力。
As you'll soon see, I was immediately transfixed and absolutely enchanted by Dr. Jarvis's description of his work and the ways that it impacts all the various aspects of our lives.
正如您很快就会看到的那样，贾维斯博士对他的工作及其影响我们生活各个方面的方式的描述立即让我惊呆了，并且完全着迷。
For instance, I learned from Dr. Jarvis that as we read, we are generating very low levels of motor activity in our throat.
例如，我从贾维斯博士那里了解到，当我们阅读时，我们喉咙中的运动活动水平非常低。
That is, we are speaking the words that we are reading at a level below the perception of sound or our own perception of those words.
也就是说，我们正在以低于声音感知或我们自己对这些单词的感知的水平说出我们正在阅读的单词。
But if one were to put an amplifier to measure the firing of those muscles in our vocal cords, we'd find that as we're reading information, we are actually speaking that information.
但是，如果要放置一个放大器来测量声带中这些肌肉的发射，我们会发现当我们阅读信息时，我们实际上是在说出该信息。
And as I learned, and you'll soon learn, there's a direct link between those species in the world that have song and movement, which many of us would associate with dance, and our ability to learn and generate complex language.
据我所知，你很快就会了解到，世界上那些有歌曲和动作的物种（我们许多人会将其与舞蹈联系起来）与我们学习和生成复杂语言的能力之间存在直接联系。
So for people with speech disorders like stutter, or for people who are interested in multiple language learning, bilingual, trilingual, et cetera, and frankly, for anyone who is interested in how we communicate through words, written or spoken, I'm certain today's episode is going to be an especially interesting and important one for you.
因此，对于患有口吃等语言障碍的人，或者对多语言学习（双语、三语等）感兴趣的人，坦率地说，对于任何对我们如何通过书面或口语进行交流感兴趣的人，我确信今天的这一集对您来说将是特别有趣和重要的一集。
Dr. Jarvis's work is so pioneering that he has been awarded truly countless awards.
贾维斯博士的工作非常具有开创性，因此他获得了无数奖项。
I'm not going to take our time to list off all the various important awards that he's received, but I should point out that in addition to being a decorated professor at The Rockefeller University, he is also an investigator with the Howard Hughes Medical Institute, the so-called HHMI.
我不会花时间列出他获得的所有各种重要奖项，但我应该指出，除了是洛克菲勒大学的荣誉教授之外，他还是霍华德休斯医学研究所（即所谓的 HHMI）的研究员。
And for those of you that don't know, HHMI investigators are selected on an extremely competitive basis that they have to re-up.
对于那些不知道的人来说，HHMI 调查员的选拔是在极其激烈的竞争基础上进行的，他们必须重新组建。
That is, they have to re-compete every five years.
也就是说，他们必须每五年重新比赛一次。
They actually receive a grade every five years that dictates whether or not they are no longer a Howard Hughes investigator, or whether or not they can advance to another five years of funding for their important research.
实际上，他们每五年都会收到一个等级，决定他们是否不再是霍华德休斯的调查员，或者他们是否可以为他们的重要研究再获得五年的资助。
And indeed, Howard Hughes investigators are selected not just for the rigor of their work, but for their pioneering spirit and their ability to take on high-risk, high-benefit work, which is exactly the kind of work that Dr. Jarvis has been providing for decades now.
事实上，霍华德·休斯研究人员的选择不仅是因为他们工作的严谨性，还因为他们的开拓精神和承担高风险、高收益工作的能力，而这正是贾维斯博士几十年来一直从事的工作。
Again, I think today's episode is one of the more unique and special episodes that we've had on the Huberman Lab podcast.
再说一遍，我认为今天的节目是我们在 Huberman 实验室播客上播出的最独特、最特别的节目之一。
I single it out because it really spans from the basic to the applied, and Dr. Jarvis's story is an especially unique one in terms of how he arrived at becoming a neurobiologist.
我之所以把它挑出来，是因为它确实涵盖了从基础到应用的各个方面，而且贾维斯博士的故事在他如何成为一名神经生物学家方面是一个特别独特的故事。
So for those of you that are interested in personal journey and personal story, Dr. Jarvis's is truly a special and important one.
因此，对于那些对个人旅程和个人故事感兴趣的人来说，贾维斯博士的确实是一个特别且重要的地方。
Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.
在开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。
It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public.
然而，我的愿望和努力的一部分是向公众提供有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本消费者信息。
In keeping with that theme, I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast.
为了与这个主题保持一致，我要感谢今天播客的赞助商。
And now for my discussion with Dr. Erich Jarvis.
现在我与埃里希·贾维斯博士进行了讨论。
Erich, so great to have you here.
埃里希，很高兴你能来到这里。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Thank you.
谢谢你。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Very interested in learning from you about speech and language.
非常有兴趣向您学习言语和语言。
And even as I ask the question, I realize that a lot of people, including myself, probably don't fully appreciate the distinction between speech and language, right?
即使我问这个问题，我也意识到很多人，包括我自己，可能并不完全理解言语和语言之间的区别，对吗？
Speech I think of as the motor patterns, the-
我认为言语是运动模式，-
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
the production of sound that has meaning, hopefully.
希望能够产生有意义的声音。
And language, of course, come in various languages and varieties of ways of communicating.
当然，语言有多种语言和多种交流方式。
But in terms of the study of speech and language and thinking about how the brain organizes speech and language, what are the similarities?
但就言语和语言的研究以及思考大脑如何组织言语和语言而言，有哪些相似之处呢？
What are the differences?
有什么区别？
How should we think about speech and language?
我们应该如何思考言语和语言？
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Well, I'm glad you invited me here, and I'm also glad to get that first question, which I consider a provocative one.
嗯，我很高兴你邀请我来这里，我也很高兴收到第一个问题，我认为这是一个挑衅性的问题。
The reason why, I've been struggling, what is the difference with speech and language for many years, and realize why am I struggling is because there are behavioral terms, let's call them psychologically, psychology-developed kind of terms, that don't actually align exactly with brain function.
多年来，我一直在挣扎，言语和语言有什么区别，并意识到我为何挣扎，是因为有一些行为术语，让我们称它们为心理学、心理学发展的术语，实际上与大脑功能并不完全一致。
Right?
正确的？
And the question, is there a distinction between speech and language?
问题是，言语和语言之间有区别吗？
And when I look at the brain of work that other people have done, work we have done, also comparative with animal models, like those who can imitate sounds like parrots and songbirds, I start to see there really isn't such a sharp distinction.
当我观察其他人所做的工作以及我们所做的工作时，也将其与动物模型进行比较，例如那些可以模仿鹦鹉和鸣禽等声音的人，我开始发现实际上并没有那么明显的区别。
So to get at what I think is going on, let me tell you how some people think of it now, that there's a separate language module in the brain that has all the algorithms and computations that influence the speech pathway on how to produce sound, and the auditory pathway on how to perceive and interpret it for speech or for sound that we call speech.
因此，为了了解我认为正在发生的事情，让我告诉你现在有些人是如何看待它的，大脑中有一个单独的语言模块，它具有影响语音通路如何产生声音的所有算法和计算，以及影响听觉通路如何感知和解释语音或我们称之为语音的声音的听觉通路。
And it turns out, I don't think there is any good evidence for a separate language module.
事实证明，我认为没有任何好的证据支持单独的语言模块。
Instead- There is a speech production pathway that's controlling our larynx, controlling our jaw muscles, that has built within it all the complex algorithms for spoken language.
相反，有一条语音产生路径控制着我们的喉部，控制着我们的下巴肌肉，它内置了所有复杂的口语算法。
And there's the auditory pathway that has built within it all the complex algorithms for understanding speech, not separate from a language module.
还有听觉通路，它内置了所有用于理解语音的复杂算法，而不是与语言模块分开。
And this speech production pathway is specialized to humans and parrots and songbirds, whereas this auditory perception pathway is more ubiquitous amongst the animal kingdom, and this is why dogs can understand sit, come here boy, get the ball, and so forth.
这种言语产生途径专门针对人类、鹦鹉和鸣禽，而这种听觉感知途径在动物王国中更为普遍，这就是为什么狗可以理解“坐下”、“来这里男孩”、“拿球”等等。
Dogs can understand several hundred human speech words.
狗可以理解数百个人类语言单词。
Great apes, you can teach them for several thousand, but they can't say a word.
大猿，你可以教他们几千，他们却一句话也说不出来。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Fascinating.
令人着迷。
Because you've raised a number of animal species early on here, and because I have basically an obsession with animals since the time I was very small, I have to ask, which animals have language?
因为你们很早就在这里养了很多动物，而且我从小就对动物很着迷，所以我想问，哪些动物有语言？
Which animals have modes of communication that are sort of like language?
哪些动物具有类似于语言的交流方式？
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I've heard whale songs.
我听过鲸鱼的歌声。
I don't know what they're saying.
我不知道他们在说什么。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They sound very beautiful, but they could be insulting each other for all I know.
它们听起来很美丽，但据我所知，它们可能是在互相侮辱。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And they very well may be.
他们很可能是这样。
Dolphins, birds.
海豚、鸟类。
What do we understand about modes of communication that are like language but might not be what would classically be called language?
对于类似于语言但可能不是传统意义上的语言的交流模式，我们有何理解？
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Yes.
是的。
Right.
正确的。
So modes of communication that people would define as language, in a very narrow definition, they would say production of sound, so speech.
人们将沟通方式定义为语言，在非常狭隘的定义中，他们会说声音的产生，即语音。
But what about the hands, to gesturing with the hands?
但是手呢，用手打手势呢？
What about a bird who is doing aerial displays in the air, communicating information through body language, right?
一只在空中进行空中表演、通过肢体语言传达信息的鸟怎么样，对吗？
Well, I'm going to go back to the brain.
好吧，我要回到大脑了。
So what I think is going on is for spoken language, we're using the speech pathway and all the complex algorithms there.
所以我认为对于口语来说，我们正在使用语音路径和所有复杂的算法。
Next to the brain regions that are controlling spoken language are the brain regions for gesturing with the hands.
控制口语的大脑区域旁边是负责用手打手势的大脑区域。
And that hand parallel pathway has also complex algorithms that we can utilize.
手并行路径也有我们可以利用的复杂算法。
And some species are more advanced in these circuits, whether it's sound or gesturing with hands, and some are less advanced.
有些物种的这些电路更加先进，无论是声音还是手势，而有些物种则不太先进。
Now, we humans and a few others are the most advanced for the speech sounds or the spoken language, but a non-human primate can produce gesturing in a more advanced form than they can produce sound.
现在，我们人类和其他一些人在语音或口语方面是最先进的，但非人类灵长类动物可以以比发出声音更先进的形式做出手势。
I'm not sure I got that across clearly.
我不确定我是否清楚地表达了这一点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No.
不。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Just to say that humans are the most advanced at spoken language, but not necessarily as big a difference at gestural language compared to some other species.
只是说人类在口语方面是最先进的，但与其他一些物种相比，在手势语言方面不一定有那么大的差异。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Very clear and very interesting, and immediately prompts the question: have there been brain imaging or other sorts of studies evaluating neural activity in the context of cultures and languages, at least that I associate with a lot of hand movement, like Italian-
非常清晰，非常有趣，并立即提出了一个问题：是否有大脑成像或其他类型的研究评估文化和语言背景下的神经活动，至少我与很多手部动作相关联，例如意大利语-
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
versus, I don't know, maybe you could give us some examples of cultures where language is not associated with as much overt hand movement.
相反，我不知道，也许你可以给我们一些文化的例子，在这些文化中，语言与明显的手部动作没有关联。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Yes.
是的。
So as you and I are talking here today, and people who are listening but can't see us, we're actually gesturing with our hands as we talk, without knowing it or doing it unconsciously.
因此，当你和我今天在这里讲话时，那些正在听但看不到我们的人，我们在讲话时实际上是在做手势，但我们不知道或无意识地这样做。
And if we were talking on a telephone, I would have one hand here, and I would be gesturing with the other hand without even you seeing me, right?
如果我们通过电话交谈，我会一只手放在这里，而我会用另一只手做手势，甚至你都看不到我，对吗？
And so why is that?
那么这是为什么呢？
Some have argued, and I would agree based upon what we've seen, is that there's an evolutionary relationship between the brain pathways that control speech production and gesturing.
有些人认为，根据我们所看到的情况，我同意，控制言语产生和手势的大脑通路之间存在进化关系。
And the brain regions I mentioned are directly adjacent to each other.
我提到的大脑区域是直接相邻的。
And why is that?
这是为什么呢？
I think that the brain pathways that control speech evolved out of the brain pathways that control body movement.
我认为控制言语的大脑通路是从控制身体运动的大脑通路进化而来的。
All right?
好的？
And when you talk about Italian, French, English, and so forth, each one of those languages come with a learned set of gestures that you can communicate with.
当你谈论意大利语、法语、英语等时，每一种语言都带有一套习得的手势，你可以用它们进行交流。
Now, how is that related to other animals?
现在，这与其他动物有何关系？
Well, Coco, a gorilla who was raised with humans for 39 years or more, learned how to do gesture communication, learned how to sign language, so to speak, right?
好吧，可可，一只与人类一起长大了 39 年或更长时间的大猩猩，学会了如何进行手势交流，学会了如何手语，可以这么说，对吗？
But Coco couldn't produce those sounds.
但可可无法发出这些声音。
Coco could understand them as well by seeing somebody sign or hearing somebody produce speech, but Coco couldn't produce it with her voice.
可可也可以通过看到某人的手语或听到某人的讲话来理解它们，但可可无法用她的声音来表达。
And so what's going on there is that a number of species, not all of them, a number of species have motor pathways in the brain where you can do learned gesturing, rudimentary language, if you want, say, with your limbs, even if it's not as advanced as humans.
所以那里发生的事情是，许多物种，不是全部，许多物种在大脑中都有运动通路，如果你愿意，比如用你的四肢，你可以在其中学习手势和基本语言，即使它不像人类那么先进。
But they don't have this extra brain pathway for the sound, so they can't gesture with their voice in the way that they gesture with their hands.
但他们没有这种额外的大脑通路来处理声音，所以他们不能像用手做手势那样用声音做手势。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I see.
我明白了。
One thing that I've wondered about for a very long time is whether or not primitive emotions and primitive sounds are the early substrate of language, and whether or not there's a bridge that we can draw between those in terms of just the basic respiration systems associated with different extreme feelings.
我长期以来一直想知道的一件事是，原始情感和原始声音是否是语言的早期基础，以及我们是否可以通过与不同极端感觉相关的基本呼吸系统在它们之间架起一座桥梁。
Here's the way I'm imagining this might work.
这就是我想象的可行方式。
When I smell something delicious, I typically inhale more.
当我闻到美味的东西时，我通常会吸入更多。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I might say, "Mm," or something like that.
我可能会说“嗯”或者类似的话。
Whereas if I smell something putrid, I typically turn away, I wince, and I will exhale, sort of like turn away, try not ingest those molecules or inhale those molecules.
然而，如果我闻到腐臭的味道，我通常会转过身去，我会皱起眉头，然后呼气，有点像转过身来，尽量不要摄入或吸入这些分子。
I could imagine that these are the basic dark and light contrasts of the language system.
我可以想象这些是语言系统的基本明暗对比。
And as I say that, I'm saying that from the orientation of a vision scientist who thinks of all visual images built up in a very basic way of a hierarchical model of the ability to see dark and light.
正如我所说，我是从一位视觉科学家的角度出发，他认为所有视觉图像都是以一种非常基本的方式建立起来的，即看到黑暗和光明的能力的分层模型。
So I could imagine this kind of primitive to more sophisticated pyramid of sound to language.
所以我可以想象这种从原始到更复杂的声音到语言的金字塔。
Is this a crazy idea?
这是一个疯狂的想法吗？
Do we have any evidence this is the way it works?
我们有任何证据证明这就是它的运作方式吗？
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
No, it's not a crazy idea, and in fact, you hit upon one of the key distinctions in the field of research that I had started out in, which is vocal learning research.
不，这不是一个疯狂的想法，事实上，你偶然发现了我开始研究领域的一个关键区别，那就是声乐学习研究。
So, for vocal communication, you have most vertebrate species vocalize, but most of them are producing innate sounds that they're born with producing.
因此，对于声音交流，大多数脊椎动物都会发声，但它们中的大多数都会发出与生俱来的声音。
That is babies crying, for example, or dogs barking.
例如，这是婴儿的哭声或狗的叫声。
And only a few species have learned vocal communication, the ability to imitate sounds, and that is what makes spoken language special.
只有少数物种学会了声音交流，即模仿声音的能力，这就是口语的特殊之处。
When people think of what's special about language, it's the learned vocalizations.
当人们想到语言的特别之处时，那就是习得的发声。
That is what's rare.
这才是罕见的。
And so this distinction between innateness and learned, is more of a bigger dichotomy when it comes to vocalizations than for other behaviors in the animal kingdom.
因此，与动物王国的其他行为相比，先天性和后天性之间的区别在发声方面更像是一个更大的二分法。
And, when you go in the brain, you see it there as well.
而且，当你进入大脑时，你也会在那里看到它。
And so all the things you talked about, the breathing, the grunting, and so forth, a lot of that is handled by the brain stem circuits, right around the level of your neck and below, like a reflex kind of thing.
所以你谈论的所有事情，呼吸，咕噜声等等，很多都是由脑干回路处理的，就在你脖子的水平周围和下面，就像一种反射一样的东西。
Or even some emotional aspects of your behavior in the hypothalamus and so forth.
甚至是你下丘脑行为的一些情感方面等等。
But for a learned behavior, learning how to speak, learning how to play the piano, teaching a dog to learn how to do tricks, is using the forebrain circuits.
但对于后天习得的行为，学习如何说话、学习如何弹钢琴、教狗学习如何表演技巧，都是在使用前脑回路。
And what has happened is that there's a lot of forebrain circuits that are controlling learning how to move body parts in these species, but not for the vocalizations.
所发生的情况是，在这些物种中，有很多前脑回路正在控制学习如何移动身体部位，但不是为了发声。
But in humans, and in parrots, and some other species, somehow, we acquired circuits where the forebrain has taken over the brain stem, and now using that brain stem not only to produce the innate behaviors or vocal behaviors, but the learned ones as well.
但在人类、鹦鹉和其他一些物种中，不知何故，我们获得了前脑接管脑干的回路，现在利用脑干不仅产生先天的行为或声音行为，还产生后天习得的行为。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do we have any sense of when modern or sophisticated language evolved?
我们是否知道现代或复杂的语言何时演变？
Thinking back to the species that we evolved from and even within Homo sapiens-
回想一下我们进化而来的物种，甚至是智人内部的物种——
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
has there been an evolution of language?
语言有进化吗？
Has there been a devolution of language?
语言有权力下放吗？
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
I would say, and to be able to answer that question, it does come with the caveat that I think we humans overrate ourselves compared to other species.
我想说，为了能够回答这个问题，我确实需要注意的是，我认为与其他物种相比，我们人类高估了自己。
And so it makes even scientists go astray in trying to hypothesize when you, especially don't find fossil evidence of language that easily out there, in terms of what happened in the past.
因此，即使是科学家在试图做出假设时也会误入歧途，尤其是当你无法轻易地找到关于过去发生的事情的语言化石证据时。
Amongst the primates, which we humans belong to, we are the only ones that have this advanced vocal learning ability.
在我们人类所属的灵长类动物中，我们是唯一拥有这种高级发声学习能力的动物。
Now it was assumed that it was only Homo sapiens.
现在人们认为这只是智人。
Then you can go back in time now, based upon genomic data, not only of us living humans, but of the fossils that have been found for Homo sapiens, of Neanderthals, of Denisovan individuals, and discover that our human ancestors supposedly hybridized with these other hominid species.
然后你现在可以根据基因组数据回到过去，不仅是我们活着的人类，而且是已发现的智人、尼安德特人、丹尼索瓦人的化石，并发现我们的人类祖先据称与这些其他原始人类物种杂交。
And it was assumed that these other hominid species don't learn how to imitate sounds.
人们认为这些其他原始人类物种不学习如何模仿声音。
I don't know of any species today that's a vocal learner that can have children with a non-vocal learning species.
我不知道今天有哪个物种能够与非声音学习物种生下孩子。
I don't see it.
我没看到。
Doesn't mean it didn't exist.
并不意味着它不存在。
And when we look at the genetic data from these ancestral hominids, where we can look at genes that are involved in learned vocal communication, they have the same sequence as we humans do for genes that function in speech circuits.
当我们查看这些原始人类祖先的遗传数据时，我们可以查看与学习的声音交流有关的基因，它们与我们人类在语音回路中发挥作用的基因具有相同的序列。
So I think Neanderthals had spoken language.
所以我认为尼安德特人有口语。
I'm not going to say it's as advanced as what it is in humans, I don't know.
我不会说它和人类一样先进，我不知道。
But I think it's been there for at least between 500,000 to a million years, that our ancestors had this ability, and that we've been becoming more and more advanced with it culturally and possibly genetically.
但我认为我们的祖先拥有这种能力至少已经存在了 50 万到一百万年，而且我们在文化上和可能在基因上都变得越来越先进。
But I think it's evolved sometime in the last 500,000 to a million years.
但我认为它是在过去 50 万到 100 万年的某个时候进化而来的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Incredible.
难以置信。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Maybe we could talk a little bit more about the overlap between brain circuits that control language and speech in humans and other animals.
也许我们可以更多地讨论人类和其他动物控制语言和言语的大脑回路之间的重叠。
I was weaned in the neuroscience era where bird song and the ability of birds to learn their tutor song was, and still is, a prominent field-
我是在神经科学时代断奶的，在那个时代，鸟鸣和鸟类学习导师鸣叫的能力过去是、现在仍然是一个突出的领域——
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
subfield of neuroscience.
神经科学的子领域。
And then, of course, neuroimaging of humans speaking and learning, et cetera.
当然，还有人类说话和学习的神经影像学等等。
And this notion of a critical period, a time in which language is learned more easily than it is later in life.
还有这个关键时期的概念，在这个时期，学习语言比晚年更容易。
And the names of the different brain areas were quite different.
而且不同脑区的名称也大不相同。
If one opens the textbooks, we hear Wernickes and Brocas for the humans, and you look at the bird stuff, I remember-
如果有人打开教科书，我们会听到韦尼克斯和布罗卡斯代表人类，而你看看鸟类的东西，我记得——
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
HVC
高压气相色谱
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
robust archstratum area X.
坚固的基层区域 X.
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
That's right.
没错。
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Et cetera.
等等。
But, for most of our listeners, those names won't mean a whole lot.
但是，对于我们大多数听众来说，这些名字并没有多大意义。
But in terms of homologies between areas, in terms of function, what do we know?
但就区域之间的同源性而言，就功能而言，我们知道什么呢？
And how similar or different are the brain areas controlling speech and language in, say, a songbird and a young human child?
比如说，鸣禽和人类儿童控制言语和语言的大脑区域有何相似或不同？
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So going back to the 1950s or, and even a little earlier, and Peter Marler and others who got involved in neuroethology, the study of neurobiology of behavior in a natural way, right?
那么，回到 20 世纪 50 年代，或者甚至更早一些，彼得·马勒 (Peter Marler) 和其他参与神经行为学的人，以自然的方式研究行为的神经生物学，对吗？
They started to find that behaviorally, there are these species of birds, like songbirds and parrots, and now we also know hummingbirds, just three of them, out of the 40-something bird groups out there on the planet, orders, that they can imitate sounds like we do.
他们开始发现，在行为上，有这些鸟类，比如鸣禽和鹦鹉，现在我们也知道了蜂鸟，在地球上 40 多种鸟类中，只有蜂鸟中的三种，它们可以像我们一样模仿声音。
And so that was a similarity.
这就是相似之处。
In other words, they had this kind of behavior that's more similar to us than chimpanzees have with us, or than chickens have with them, right?
换句话说，他们的这种行为与我们的行为比黑猩猩与我们的行为更相似，也比鸡与它们的行为更相似，对吗？
They're closer relatives.
他们是更近的亲戚。
And then they discovered even more similarities, these critical periods, that if you remove a child, this unfortunately happens where a child is feral, and is not raised with human and goes through their puberty phase of growth, it becomes hard for them to learn a language as an adult.
然后他们发现了更多的相似之处，这些关键时期，如果你把一个孩子移走，不幸的是，这种情况发生在一个孩子是野性的，没有与人类一起抚养并经历青春期成长阶段的地方，他们成年后很难学习语言。
So there's this critical period where you learn best, and even later on, when you're in regular society, it's hard to learn.
所以在这个关键时期，你学得最好，甚至后来，当你进入正常社会时，就很难学了。
Well, the birds undergo the same thing.
嗯，鸟类也会经历同样的事情。
And then it was discovered that if they become deaf, we humans become deaf, our speech starts to deteriorate without any kind of therapy.
然后人们发现，如果他们聋了，我们人类也会聋，在没有任何治疗的情况下，我们的语言能力就会开始恶化。
If a non-human primate or, let's say, a chicken becomes deaf, their vocalizations don't deteriorate.
如果非人类灵长类动物，或者比方说，鸡聋了，它们的发声能力不会恶化。
Very little, at least.
至少很少。
Well, this happens in the vocal learning birds.
嗯，这种情况发生在学习发声的鸟类身上。
So there were all these behavioral parallels that came along in a package, and then people looked into the brain, Fernando Nottebohm, my former PhD advisor, and began to discover the Area X you talked about, the robust nucleus of the archipallium.
因此，所有这些行为上的相似之处都集中在一起，然后人们研究了我的前博士生导师费尔南多·诺特博姆（Fernando Nottebohm）的大脑，并开始发现你谈到的 X 区，即群岛的强大核心。
And these brain pathways were not found in the species who couldn't imitate, so there was a parallel here.
而这些大脑通路在无法模仿的物种中并没有发现，所以这里有一个相似之处。
And then, jumping many years later, I started to dig down into these brain circuits to discover that these brain circuits have parallel functions with the brain circuits for humans, even though they're by a different name, like Broca's and laryngeal motor cortex.
然后，多年后，我开始深入研究这些大脑回路，发现这些大脑回路与人类的大脑回路具有平行的功能，尽管它们的名称不同，例如布罗卡和喉部运动皮层。
And most recently, we discovered not only the actual circuitry and the connectivity are similar, but the underlying genes that are expressed in these brain regions in a specialized way, different from the rest of the brain, are also similar between humans and songbirds and parrots.
最近，我们发现，人类与鸣禽和鹦鹉之间不仅实际电路和连接相似，而且这些大脑区域以不同于大脑其他部分的特殊方式表达的潜在基因也相似。
So all the way down to the genes, and now we're finding the specific mutations are also similar.
所以一直到基因，现在我们发现特定的突变也很相似。
Not always identical, but similar.
并不总是相同，但相似。
Which indicates remarkable convergence for a so-called complex behavior in species separated by 300 million years from a common ancestor.
这表明，与共同祖先相距 3 亿年的物种之间所谓的复杂行为存在显着的趋同。
And not only that, we are discovering that mutations in these genes that cause speech deficits in humans, like in FOXP2, if you put those same mutations or similar type of deficits in these vocal learning birds, you get similar deficits.
不仅如此，我们发现这些基因的突变会导致人类语言缺陷，就像 FOXP2 中的那样，如果你在这些声音学习鸟类中放置相同的突变或类似类型的缺陷，你会得到类似的缺陷。
So convergence of the behavior is associated with similar genetic disorders of the behavior.
因此，行为的趋同与类似的行为遗传疾病有关。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Incredible.
难以置信。
I have to ask, do hummingbirds sing or do they hum?
我想问一下，蜂鸟是唱歌还是嗡嗡声？
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Hummingbirds hum with their wings and sing with their syrinx.
蜂鸟用翅膀嗡嗡作响，用鸣管歌唱。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In a coordinated way?
以协调的方式？
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
In a coordinated way.
以协调的方式。
There are some species of hummingbirds, that actually will, Doug Ashler showed this, that will flap their wings and create a slapping sound with their wings that's in unison with their song.
道格·阿什勒（Doug Ashler）表示，有些种类的蜂鸟实际上会拍打翅膀，并用翅膀发出与它们的歌声一致的拍打声。
And you would not know it, but it sounds like a particular syllable in their songs, even though it's their wings and their voice at the same time.
你不会知道，但这听起来像是他们歌曲中的一个特定音节，尽管它同时是他们的翅膀和声音。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hummingbirds are clapping to their song.
蜂鸟正随着它们的歌声拍手。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Clapping.
鼓掌。
They're snapping their wings together, in unison with the song to make it like if I'm going and I banged on the table.
它们拍打翅膀，与歌曲齐声，就像我要走时敲击桌子一样。
Except they make it almost sound like their voice with their wings.
只是它们听起来几乎就像是用翅膀发出的声音。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Incredible.
难以置信。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm-
我是——
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
And they got some of the smallest brains around
他们有一些最小的大脑
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I guess as a kid you would say mind blown.
我猜小时候你会说心碎了。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Incredible.
难以置信。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Incredible.
难以置信。
I love hummingbirds, and I always feel like it's such a special thing to get a moment to see one, because they move around so fast, and they flit away-
我喜欢蜂鸟，我总觉得能有时间看到蜂鸟是一件很特别的事情，因为它们移动得如此之快，然后就飞走了——
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
so fast in these ballistic trajectories.
这些弹道轨迹如此之快。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That when you get to see one stationary for a moment, or even just hovering there, you feel like you're extracting so much from their little microcosm of life.
当你看到一个静止的物体片刻，甚至只是悬浮在那里时，你会觉得自己从它们生命的小缩影中汲取了很多东西。
But now I realize they're playing music, essentially.
但现在我意识到他们本质上是在演奏音乐。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Right.
对。
Exactly.
确切地。
And what's amazing about hummingbirds, and I'm going to say vocal learning species in general, is that for whatever reason, they seem to evolve multiple complex traits.
蜂鸟（我想说的是一般的声音学习物种）的惊人之处在于，无论出于何种原因，它们似乎进化出了多种复杂的特征。
This idea that the evolving language, spoken language in particular, comes along with a set of specializations.
这种观点认为，不断发展的语言，特别是口语，伴随着一系列专业化。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Incredible.
难以置信。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
When I was coming up in neuroscience, I learned that, I think it was the work of Peter Marler, that young birds learn, songbirds, learn their tutor's song, and learn it quite well, but that they could learn the song of another tutor.
当我进入神经科学领域时，我了解到，我认为这是彼得·马勒的工作，幼鸟学习，鸣禽学习他们导师的歌曲，并且学得很好，但他们可以学习另一位导师的歌曲。
In other words, they could learn a different, and for the listeners, I'm doing air quotes here, a different language, a different bird song.
换句话说，他们可以学习不同的，对于听众来说，我在这里做空中引语，一种不同的语言，一种不同的鸟鸣。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Different than their own species song.
与自己物种的歌曲不同。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But never as well as they could learn their own natural genetically linked song.
但他们永远无法像他们一样学习自己的自然遗传歌曲。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Genetically linked, meaning that it would be like me being raised in a different culture, and that I would learn the other language, but not as well as I would have learned English.
基因相关，这意味着就像我在不同的文化中长大一样，我会学习另一种语言，但不如我学英语那么好。
This is the idea.
这就是想法。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is that true?
这是真的吗？
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
That is true, yes.
确实如此，是的。
And that's what I learned growing up as well, and talked to Peter Marler himself about before he passed.
这也是我在成长过程中学到的，并在彼得·马勒去世前与他本人谈论过。
He used to call it the innate predisposition to learn.
他过去称之为学习的先天倾向。
All right?
好的？
So which would be kind of the equivalent in the linguistic community of universal grammar.
因此，这在普遍语法的语言界中是等价的。
There is something genetically influencing our vocal communication on top of what we learn culturally.
除了我们所学到的文化之外，还有一些基因因素会影响我们的声音交流。
And so there's this balance between the genetic control of speech, or a song in these birds, and the learned cultural control.
因此，这些鸟类的语言或歌曲的遗传控制与习得的文化控制之间存在着这种平衡。
And so yes, if you were to take in this case, we actually tried this at Rockefeller later on, take a zebra finch and raise it with a canary, it would sing a song that was sort of like a hybrid in between.
所以，是的，如果你要考虑这种情况，我们后来在洛克菲勒尝试过，把一只斑胸草雀和金丝雀一起饲养，它会唱一首有点像两者之间的混合体的歌曲。
We call it a caninch.
我们称其为caninch。
And vice versa for the canary, because there's something different about their vocal musculature or the circuitry in the brain.
对于金丝雀来说反之亦然，因为它们的声音肌肉组织或大脑回路有所不同。
And with a zebra finch, even with a closely related species, if you were to take a zebra finch, a young animal, and in one cage next to it place its own species, adult male.
对于斑胸草雀，即使是密切相关的物种，如果你要带一只斑胸草雀，一种幼小的动物，并在它旁边的一个笼子里放置它自己的物种，即成年雄性。
And in the other cage, place a Bengalese finch next to it, it would preferably learn the song from its own species neighbor.
在另一个笼子里，在它旁边放一只孟加拉雀，它最好从它自己的物种邻居那里学习这首歌。
But if you remove its neighbor, it would learn that Bengalese finch very well.
但如果你把它的邻居移走，它就会知道孟加拉雀非常好。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Fantastic.
太棒了。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
So, it has something to do with also the social bonding with your own species.
所以，它也与你们自己物种的社会联系有关。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Incredible.
难以置信。
That raises a question that based on something I also heard, but I don't have any scientific peer-reviewed publication to point to, which is this idea of pidgin, not the bird, but this idea of when multiple cultures and languages converge in a given geographic area, that the children of all the different native languages will come up with their own language.
这提出了一个基于我也听到的问题，但我没有任何科学的同行评审出版物可以指出，这就是洋泾浜的想法，而不是鸟，而是当多种文化和语言在特定地理区域融合时，所有不同母语的孩子都会想出自己的语言。
I think this was in island culture, maybe in Hawaii-
我认为这是岛屿文化，也许是在夏威夷——
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
called Pidgin-
称为洋泾浜语-
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
which is sort of a hybrid of the various languages that their parents speak at home, and that they themselves speak.
这是他们父母在家里说的各种语言以及他们自己说的各种语言的混合体。
And that somehow Pidgin, again, not the bird, but a language called Pidgin for reasons I don't know, harbors certain basic elements of all language.
不知何故，洋泾浜语，不是鸟，而是一种被称为洋泾浜语，出于我不知道的原因，拥有所有语言的某些基本元素。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is that true?
这是真的吗？
Is that not true?
这不是真的吗？
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
I haven't studied enough myself in terms of Pidgin specifically, but in terms of cultural evolution of language and hybridization between different cultures and so forth, even amongst birds with different dialects, and you bring them together.
我自己在洋泾浜语方面还没有进行足够的研究，但是在语言的文化演变和不同文化之间的杂交等方面，甚至在具有不同方言的鸟类中，你把它们放在一起。
What is going on here is cultural evolution remarkably tracks genetic evolution.
这里发生的事情是文化进化显着地追踪基因进化。
So if you bring people from two separate populations together that have been in their separate populations evolutionarily at least for hundreds of generations, so someone speaking Chinese, someone speaking English, and that child then is learning from both of them, yes, that child's going to be able to pick up and merge phonemes and words together in a way that an adult wouldn't.
因此，如果你把来自两个不同种群的人聚集在一起，他们在各自的种群中至少进化了数百代，所以有人说中文，有人说英语，然后那个孩子正在向他们学习，是的，那个孩子将能够以成年人无法做到的方式拾取音素和单词并将其融合在一起。
Because why they're experiencing both languages at the same time during their critical period, years, in a way that adults would not be able to experience.
因为为什么他们在关键时期、几年里同时体验两种语言，以成年人无法体验的方式。
And so you get a hybrid, and the lowest common denominator is going to be what they share.
所以你得到了一个混合体，最低的共同点就是它们的共同之处。
And so the phonemes that they've retained in each of their languages is what's going to be, I imagine, used the most.
因此，我想，他们在每种语言中保留的音素将是使用最多的音素。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Interesting.
有趣。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So we've got brain circuits in songbirds and in humans that in many ways are similar, perhaps not in their exact wiring-
所以我们发现鸣禽和人类的大脑回路在很多方面是相似的，也许不是在精确的线路上——
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
but in their basic contour of wiring.
但在其布线的基本轮廓中。
And genes that are expressed in both sets of neural circuits in very distinct species that are responsible for these phenomenon we're calling speech and language.
在非常不同的物种的两组神经回路中表达的基因导致了我们称之为言语和语言的现象。
What sorts of things are those genes controlling?
这些基因控制着什么样的事情？
I could imagine they were controlling the wiring of connections between brain areas.
我可以想象他们正在控制大脑区域之间的连接线路。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Yeah, mm-hmm.
是的，嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Essentially a map of a circuit.
本质上是电路图。
Basically, like an engineer would design a circuit for speech and language, nature designed the circuit-
基本上，就像工程师设计语音和语言电路一样，大自然设计了电路 -
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
for speech and language.
用于言语和语言。
But presumably other things too, like the ability to connect motor patterns within the throat, of muscles within the throat, and the control of the tongue.
但想必还有其他的东西，比如连接喉咙内的运动模式、喉咙内的肌肉以及舌头的控制的能力。
What are these genes doing?
这些基因在做什么？
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
You're pretty good.
你很不错。
Yeah, you've made some very good guesses there that make sense.
是的，您已经做出了一些非常有道理的猜测。
So yes.
所以是的。
One of the things that differ in the speech pathways of us and the song pathways of birds is some of the connections are fundamentally different than the surrounding circuits.
我们的言语路径和鸟类的鸣叫路径的不同之处之一是某些连接与周围的电路有根本的不同。
Like a direct cortical connection from the areas that control vocalizations in the cortex to the motor neurons that control the larynx in humans, or the syrinx in birds.
就像从皮层控制发声的区域到控制人类喉部或鸟类鸣管的运动神经元的直接皮层连接一样。
And so we actually made a prediction that since some of these connections differ, we're going to find genes that control neuroconnectivity, and that specialize in that function, that differ.
所以我们实际上做出了一个预测，由于其中一些连接不同，我们将找到控制神经连接的基因，并且专门从事该功能的基因，是不同的。
And that's exactly what we found.
这正是我们的发现。
The genes that control what we call axon guidance and form instant connections.
控制我们所说的轴突引导并形成即时连接的基因。
And what was interesting, it was sort of in the opposite direction than we expected.
有趣的是，它的方向与我们预期的相反。
That is, some of these genes, actually a number of them that control neuroconnectivity, were turned off in the speech circuit.
也就是说，其中一些基因，实际上是控制神经连接的一些基因，在言语回路中被关闭。
All right.
好的。
And it didn't make sense to us at first until we started to realize the function of these genes are to repel connections from forming, so repulsive molecules.
起初这对我们来说没有意义，直到我们开始意识到这些基因的功能是排斥连接形成，因此排斥分子。
And so when you turn them off, they allow certain connections to form that normally would have not formed.
因此，当你关闭它们时，它们会允许形成某些通常不会形成的连接。
So by turning it off, you got a gain-of-function for speech.
因此，通过关闭它，你可以获得语音功能。
All right?
好的？
Other genes that surprised us were genes involved in calcium buffering, neuroprotection, like a parvalbumin or a heat shock protein.
其他令我们惊讶的基因是涉及钙缓冲、神经保护的基因，如小清蛋白或热休克蛋白。
So when your brain gets hot, these proteins turn on.
因此，当你的大脑变热时，这些蛋白质就会启动。
And we couldn't figure out for a long time, why is that the case.
我们很长一段时间都想不通，为什么会这样。
And then the idea popped to me one day, I said, "Ah." When I heard the larynx is the fastest-firing muscles in the body.
然后有一天我突然想到了这个想法，我说：“啊。”当我听到喉咙是身体中发射最快的肌肉时。
All right?
好的？
In order to vibrate sound and modulate sound in the way we do, you have to move those muscles three to four to five times faster than just regular walking or running.
为了以我们的方式振动声音和调制声音，您必须以比常规步行或跑步快三到四到五倍的速度移动这些肌肉。
And so When you stick electrodes in the brain areas that control learned vocalizations in these birds, and I think in humans as well, those neurons are firing at a higher rate to control these muscles.
因此，当你将电极插入这些鸟类（我认为人类也如此）控制习得发声的大脑区域时，这些神经元会以更高的速率放电来控制这些肌肉。
And so what is that going to do?
那么那会做什么呢？
You're going to have lots of toxicity in those neurons unless you upregulate molecules that take out the extra load that is needed to control the larynx.
除非你上调分子来消除控制喉部所需的额外负荷，否则这些神经元中将会有很多毒性。
And then finally, a third set of genes that specialize in the speech circuit are involved in neuroplasticity.
最后，专门研究言语回路的第三组基因与神经可塑性有关。
Neuroplasticity meaning allowing the brain circuits to be more flexible, so you can learn better.
神经可塑性意味着让大脑回路更加灵活，这样你就能学得更好。
And why is that?
这是为什么呢？
I think learning how to produce speech is a more complex learning ability than, say, learning how to walk or learning how to do tricks and jumps and so forth that dogs do.
我认为学习如何发出言语是一种比狗学习如何走路或学习如何做技巧和跳跃等更复杂的学习能力。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
It's interesting as you say that because I realized that many aspects of speech are sort of reflexive.
正如你所说，这很有趣，因为我意识到言语的许多方面都是反射性的。
I'm not thinking about each word I'm going to say.
我不会考虑我要说的每一个字。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They just sort of roll out of my mouth, hopefully with some forethought.
它们只是从我嘴里滚出来，希望是经过深思熟虑的。
We both know people that seem to think less, fewer synapses between their brain and their mouth than others, right?
我们都知道有些人似乎比其他人思考得更少，大脑和嘴巴之间的突触也更少，对吗？
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
A lot of examples out there.
那里有很多例子。
And some people are very deliberate in their speech.
而且有些人说话很刻意。
But nonetheless, much of speech has to be precise, and some of it less precise.
但尽管如此，许多言论必须准确，而有些则不太准确。
In terms of plasticity of speech and the ability to learn multiple languages, but even just one language, what's going on in the so-called critical period?
就言语的可塑性和学习多种语言甚至一种语言的能力而言，在所谓的关键时期发生了什么？
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So my niece speaks Spanish.
所以我的侄女会说西班牙语。
She's Guatemalan, speaks Spanish and English incredibly well.
她是危地马拉人，西班牙语和英语说得非常好。
She's 14 years old.
她今年 14 岁。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I've struggled with Spanish my whole life.
我一生都在与西班牙语作斗争。
My father is bilingual.
我父亲是双语者。
My mother is not.
我妈妈不是。
I've tried to learn Spanish as an adult.
我成年后曾尝试学习西班牙语。
It's really challenging.
这真的很有挑战性。
I'm told that had I learned it when I was eight, I would be better off.
有人告诉我，如果我八岁时就学会了，我的生活会更好。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or it would be installed within me.
或者它会被安装在我体内。
So the first question is: is it easier to learn multiple languages without an accent early in life?
所以第一个问题是：在生命早期学习没有口音的多种语言是否更容易？
And if so, why?
如果是这样，为什么？
And then the second question is: if one can already speak more than one language as a consequence of childhood learning, is it easier to acquire new languages later on?
那么第二个问题是：如果一个人在童年学习的过程中已经能够说一种以上的语言，那么以后学习新语言是否会更容易？
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
So the answer to both of those questions is yes.
所以这两个问题的答案都是肯定的。
But to explain this, I need to let you know, actually, the entire brain is undergoing a critical period development, not just the speech pathways.
但为了解释这一点，我需要让你知道，实际上，整个大脑正在经历一个关键时期的发展，而不仅仅是言语通路。
And so it's easier to learn how to play a piano.
因此学习弹钢琴会更容易。
It's easier to learn how to ride a bike for the first time, and so forth, as a young child than it is later in life.
在年幼的时候第一次学习如何骑自行车比在以后的生活中更容易。
What I mean easier, in terms of when you start from first principles of learning something.
我的意思是更容易，指的是当你从学习某样东西的首要原则开始时。
So the very first time, if you're going to learn Chinese as a child versus the very first time you learn Chinese as an adult, or learning to play piano as a child versus an adult.
所以，如果你第一次学习中文是作为一个孩子，而不是你第一次学习中文是作为一个成年人，或者学习弹钢琴，作为一个孩子，而不是成人。
But the speech pathways, or let's say speech behavior, I think has a stronger critical period change to it than other circuits.
但我认为言语通路，或者说言语行为，比其他回路具有更强的关键期变化。
And what's going on there in general?
那里总体上发生了什么？
Why do you need a critical period to make you more stable, to make you more stubborn, so to speak?
为什么你需要一个关键期来让你变得更加稳定，可以说让你变得更加固执呢？
The reason I believe is that the brain can only hold so much information.
我相信的原因是大脑只能容纳这么多信息。
And, if you are undergoing rapid learning to acquire new knowledge, you also have to dump stuff, put memory or information in the trash, like in a computer.
而且，如果你正在经历快速学习以获取新知识，你还必须转储东西，将内存或信息放入垃圾箱，就像在计算机中一样。
You only have so many gigabases of memory.
你只有那么多千兆字节的内存。
And so therefore, plus also for survival, you don't want to keep forgetting things.
因此，加上为了生存，你不想一直忘记事情。
And so the brain is designed, I believe, to undergo this critical period and solidify the circuits with what you learned as a child, and you use that for the rest of your life.
因此，我相信，大脑的设计就是为了经历这个关键时期，并用你小时候学到的知识来巩固电路，并在你的余生中使用它。
And we humans stay even more plastic in our brain functions, controlled by a gene called SRGAP2.
我们人类的大脑功能具有更强的可塑性，由 SRGAP2 基因控制。
We have an extra copy of it that leaves our speech circuit and other brain regions in a more immature state throughout life compared to other animals.
与其他动物相比，我们有一个额外的副本，使我们的言语回路和其他大脑区域在一生中处于更不成熟的状态。
So we're more immature.
所以我们还比较不成熟。
We're still juvenile-like compared to other animals.
与其他动物相比，我们还很幼稚。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I knew it.
我知道。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
But we still go through the critical periods like they all do.
但我们仍然像他们一样经历关键时期。
And now the question you asked about if you learn more languages as a child, is it easier to learn as an adult?
现在你问的问题是，如果你小时候学的语言越多，长大后学起来会更容易吗？
And that's a common finding out there in the literature.
这是文献中常见的发现。
There are some that argue against it, but for those that support it, the idea there is you are born with a set of innate sounds you can produce, of phonemes, and you narrow that down because not all languages use all of them.
有些人反对它，但对于那些支持它的人来说，这个想法是，你生来就有一组可以发出的固有声音，即音素，你可以缩小范围，因为并非所有语言都使用所有这些声音。
And so you narrow down the ones you use to string the phonemes together into words that you learn, and you maintain those phonemes as an adult.
因此，你缩小了用于将音素串成你所学单词的范围，并在成年后保留这些音素。
And here comes along another language that's using those phonemes or in different combinations you're not used to.
另一种语言正在使用这些音素或以您不习惯的不同组合出现。
And therefore, it's like starting from first principles.
因此，这就像从第一原则开始。
But if you already have them in multiple languages that you're using, then it makes it easier to use them in another third or fourth language.
但是，如果您已经拥有正在使用的多种语言版本的它们，那么在其他第三种或第四种语言中使用它们会更容易。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I see.
我明白了。
Incredible.
极好的。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
So it's not like your brain has maintained greater plasticity, as your brain has maintained greater ability to produce different sounds that then allows you to learn another language faster.
因此，这并不是说您的大脑保持了更大的可塑性，而是您的大脑保持了产生不同声音的更大能力，从而使您可以更快地学习另一种语言。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Got it.
明白了。
Are the hand gestures associated with sounds or with meanings of words?
手势与声音或词义相关吗？
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
I think the hand gestures are associated with both the sounds and the meaning.
我认为手势与声音和含义相关。
When I say sound, like if you are really angry and you are making a loud screaming noise, you may make hand gestures that look like you're going to beat the wall, because you're making loud sounds and loud gestures.
当我说声音时，比如如果你真的很生气并且发出大声尖叫声，你可能会做出看起来要敲打墙壁的手势，因为你正在发出响亮的声音和响亮的手势。
But if you want to explain something like, "Come over here" What I just do now to you, for those who can't see me, I swung my hand towards you and swung it here to me.
但如果你想解释类似“过来这里”之类的话，我现在对你所做的事情，对于那些看不到我的人，我向你挥动了我的手，并向我挥动了它。
That has a meaning to it, to come here.
来到这里是有意义的。
So just like with the voice, the hand gestures are producing both qualities of sounds.
因此，就像声音一样，手势也会产生声音的两种品质。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And for people that speak multiple languages, especially those that learn those multiple languages early in development, do they switch their patterns of motor movements according to, let's say, going from Italian to Arabic, or from Arabic to French, in a way that matches the precision of language that they're speaking?
对于说多种语言的人来说，尤其是那些在发育早期学习多种语言的人，他们是否会根据他们所说的语言的精确性，例如从意大利语到阿拉伯语，或从阿拉伯语到法语来转换他们的运动模式？
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
You know what?
你知道吗？
You just asked me a question I don't know the answer to.
你刚刚问了我一个我不知道答案的问题。
I would imagine that would make sense because of switching, in terms of sometimes people might call this code switching, even different dialects of the same language.
我认为这是有意义的，因为有时人们可能会称之为代码切换，甚至是同一语言的不同方言。
Could you do that with your gestures?
你能用手势做到这一点吗？
I imagine so, but I really don't know if that's true or not.
我想是的，但我真的不知道这是真的还是假的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, I certainly don't know from my own experience because I only speak one language.
嗯，根据我自己的经验，我当然不知道，因为我只说一种语言。
To go a little bit into the abstract, but not too far, what about modes of speech and language that seem to have a depth of emotionality and meaning, but for which it departs from structured language?
稍微抽象一点，但不要太远，那些似乎具有深度情感和意义但又偏离结构化语言的言语和语言模式又如何呢？
Here's what I mean.
这就是我的意思。
Poetry.
诗。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think of musicians, like there's some Bob Dylan songs that to me, I understand the individual words.
我想到音乐家，就像鲍勃·迪伦的一些歌曲一样，对我来说，我理解其中的各个单词。
I like to think there's an emotion associated with it, at least I experience some sort of emotion, and I have a guess about what he was experiencing.
我喜欢认为有一种情感与之相关，至少我经历了某种情感，并且我猜测他正在经历什么。
But if I were to just read it linearly without the music and without him singing it or somebody singing it like him, it wouldn't hold any meaning.
但如果我只是线性地阅读它，没有音乐，没有他演唱，或者没有像他一样演唱的人，那么它就没有任何意义。
So in other words, words that seem to have meaning, but not associated with language, but somehow tap into an emotionality.
换句话说，这些词似乎有意义，但与语言无关，但以某种方式激发了情感。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Yep, absolutely.
是的，绝对是。
So, we call this difference semantic communication, communication with meaning, and effective communication, communication that has more of an emotional feeling content to it, but not with the semantics.
因此，我们将这种差异称为“语义沟通”、“有意义的沟通”和“有效沟通”，即更多包含情感内容但不包含语义的沟通。
And the two can be mixed up, like with singing words that have meaning, but also have this effective emotional, you just love the sound of the singer that you're hearing.
两者可以混合起来，就像唱歌时有意义，但也有这种有效的情感，你只是喜欢你所听到的歌手的声音。
And initially, psychologists, scientists in general thought that these were going to be controlled by different brain circuits.
最初，心理学家和科学家普遍认为这些将由不同的大脑回路控制。
And it is the case, there are emotional brain centers in the hypothalamus, in the cingulate cortex, and so forth, that do give tone to the sounds.
情况确实如此，下丘脑、扣带皮层等处都有情绪大脑中心，它们确实为声音提供了音调。
But I believe, based upon imaging work and work we see in birds, when birds are communicating semantic information in their sounds, which is not too often, but it happens, versus effective communication, sing because I'm trying to attract a mate, my courtship song, or defend my territory.
但我相信，基于成像工作和我们在鸟类身上看到的工作，当鸟类在声音中交流语义信息时，这种情况并不常见，但它发生了，而不是有效的交流，唱歌是因为我试图吸引配偶，我的求爱歌曲，或捍卫我的领地。
It's the same brain circuits.
这是相同的大脑回路。
It's the same speech-like or song circuits are being used in different ways.
同样的类似语音或歌曲的电路被以不同的方式使用。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
A friend of mine who's also a therapist said to me, "It's possible to say I love you with intense hatred, and to say I hate you with intense love."
我的一位治疗师朋友对我说：“可以用强烈的仇恨说我爱你，也可以用强烈的爱说我恨你。”
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And reminded me that it's possible to hear both of those statements in either way.
并提醒我，无论以哪种方式都可以听到这两种说法。
So, I guess it's not just limited to song or poetry.
所以，我想这不仅仅限于歌曲或诗歌。
There's something about the intention and the emotional context in which something's spoken, that it can heavily shape the way that we interpret what we hear.
说话的意图和情感背景会在很大程度上影响我们解释所听到内容的方式。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
That's right.
没错。
And I consider all of that actually meaning, even though I've defined it as, as people commonly do, semantic and effective communication.
我认为所有这些实际上都是有意义的，尽管我像人们通常所做的那样将其定义为语义和有效的沟通。
Effective communication to say, "I hate you," but meant love, right, does have emotional meaning to it.
有效的沟通说“我恨你”，但意味着爱，对吧，确实具有情感意义。
And so, one's more like an object kind of meaning or an abstract kind of meaning.
因此，一个人更像是一种对象意义或一种抽象意义。
There's several other points here I think it's important for those listening out there to hear, is that when I say also this effective and semantic communication being used by similar brain circuits, it also matters the side of the brain.
这里还有其他几点，我认为对于那些倾听的人来说很重要的是，当我说类似的大脑回路使用这种有效的语义交流时，大脑的一侧也很重要。
In birds and in humans, there's left-right dominance for learned sound communication.
在鸟类和人类中，习得的声音交流存在左右优势。
So the left in us humans is more dominant for speech, but the right has a more balance for singing or processing musical sounds as opposed to processing speech.
因此，我们人类的左翼在言语方面更占主导地位，但与处理言语相比，右翼在唱歌或处理音乐声音方面更具平衡性。
Both get used for both reasons.
两者都因两个原因而被使用。
And so when people say your right brain is your artistic brain and your left brain is your thinking brain, this is what they're referring to.
因此，当人们说你的右脑是你的艺术脑，你的左脑是你的思考脑时，他们指的就是这个。
And so that's another distinction.
这是另一个区别。
A second thing that's useful to know is that all vocal learning species use their learned sounds for this emotional, effective kind of communication.
第二件有用的事情是，所有学习声音的物种都使用他们学到的声音来进行这种情感上的、有效的交流。
But only a few of them, like humans and some parrots and dolphins, use it for the semantic kind of communication, we're calling speech.
但只有少数动物，比如人类、一些鹦鹉和海豚，将其用于语义交流，我们称之为语音。
And that has led a number of people to hypothesize that the evolution of spoken language, of speech, evolved first for singing, for this more emotional mate attraction, like the Jennifer Lopez, the Ricky Martin kind of songs, and so forth.
这导致许多人推测，口语、演讲的进化首先是为了唱歌，为了这种更情感化的伴侣吸引力，比如詹妮弗·洛佩兹、瑞奇·马丁的歌曲等等。
And then later on it became used for abstract communication like we're doing now.
后来它被用于抽象通信，就像我们现在所做的那样。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
How interesting.
多么有趣啊。
Well, that's a perfect segue for me to be able to ask you about your background, and motor control, not only of the hands, but of the body.
嗯，这对我来说是一个完美的过渡，能够询问你的背景和运动控制，不仅是手的，还有身体的。
So you have a number of important distinctions to your name, but one of them is that you were a member of the Alvin Ailey Dance School of Dance.
所以你的名字有很多重要的区别，但其中之一是你是阿尔文·艾利舞蹈学院的成员。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
School of Dance.
舞蹈学院。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So you're an accomplished and quite able dancer, right?
所以你是一个很有成就并且很有能力的舞者，对吧？
Tell us a little bit about your background in the world of dance and how it informs your interest in neuroscience, excuse me, and perhaps even how it relates specifically to your work on speech and language.
请告诉我们一些您在舞蹈领域的背景，以及它如何激发您对神经科学的兴趣，对不起，甚至可能是它与您在言语和语言方面的工作有何具体关系。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Yes.
是的。
Well, it's interesting in that this kind of history even goes before my time.
有趣的是，这种历史甚至早于我的时代。
So in my family, my mother and father's side, they both went to the High School of Music and Art here in New York City.
因此，在我的家庭中，我的父母，他们都去了纽约市的音乐与艺术高中。
And particularly my mother's family, going back multiple generations, they were singers.
尤其是我母亲的家族，他们的几代人都是歌手。
And I even did my family genealogy and found out not only we have some relationships to some well-known singers, distant relationships like Thelonious Monk, but going back to the plantations in North Carolina and so forth, my ancestors were singers in the church for the towns and so forth.
我什至查了我的家谱，发现我们不仅与一些著名歌手有一些关系，像塞隆尼斯·蒙克这样的远亲，而且回到北卡罗来纳州的种植园等等，我的祖先是城镇教堂里的歌手等等。
And this somehow got passed on multiple generations to my family, and I thought I was going to grow up and be a famous singer, right?
这不知怎的就传给了我的家人好几代人，我以为我长大后会成为一名著名的歌手，对吧？
And me and my brothers and sister formed a band when we were kids and so forth.
当我们还是孩子的时候，我和我的兄弟姐妹组建了一支乐队。
But it turned out that I didn't inherit the singing talents of some of my other family members, even though I was okay.
但事实证明，尽管我还不错，但我并没有继承其他一些家庭成员的歌唱天赋。
But not like my brother, not like my mother or my aunts and my cousin, Putahfe, who's now a talented Native American singer.
但不像我的兄弟，不像我的母亲、阿姨和我的表弟普塔菲，她现在是一位才华横溢的美国原住民歌手。
That then influenced me to do other things, and I started competing in dance contests.
这影响了我做其他事情，我开始参加舞蹈比赛。
Actually, this is around the time of Saturday Night Fever, and as a teenager.
事实上，那是在周六夜热期间，当时还是个青少年。
And I started winning dance contests, and I thought, "Oh, I can dance." And I auditioned for the High School of Performing Arts, and I got in here in New York City, and got into ballet dance, and got in, right?
我开始赢得舞蹈比赛，我想，“哦，我可以跳舞。”我参加了表演艺术高中的试镜，然后我进入了纽约市，开始学习芭蕾舞，然后就进入了，对吗？
And thought, "If I learn ballet, I can learn everything else." It was that idea, if you learn something classical, it can teach you for everything else.
并想：“如果我学习芭蕾，我就可以学习其他一切。”就是这样的想法，如果你学习一些经典的东西，它可以教你其他的一切。
And I was, yeah, at Alvin Ailey Dance School, Joffrey Ballet Dance School, and at the end of my senior concert, I had this opportunity to audition for the Alvin Ailey Dance Company, and I had an opportunity to go to college.
是的，我在阿尔文·艾利舞蹈学校、乔弗里芭蕾舞学校，在我的高级音乐会结束时，我有机会参加阿尔文·艾利舞蹈团的试镜，我有机会上大学。
And I also fell in love with another passion that my father had, which was science.
我还爱上了父亲的另一项热情，那就是科学。
And so I liked science in high school, and I found an overlap also between the arts and sciences.
所以我在高中时喜欢科学，而且我发现艺术和科学之间也有重叠。
Both require creativity, hard work, discipline, new discovery.
两者都需要创造力、勤奋、纪律和新发现。
Both weren't boring to me.
两者对我来说都不无聊。
And the one decision I made at that senior dance concert was, when talking to the Alvin Ailey recruiter and thinking about it, I have to make a decision.
我在那场高级舞蹈音乐会上做出的一个决定是，当我与阿尔文·艾利的招聘人员交谈并思考这个问题时，我必须做出一个决定。
And I thought something my mother taught me, because she was growing up in the 1960s cultural revolution, "Do something that has a positive impact on society." And I thought that I can do that better as a dancer than a scientist.
我认为我的母亲教过我一些话，因为她是在 20 世纪 60 年代的文化大革命中长大的，“做一些对社会有积极影响的事情。”我认为作为一名舞者我可以比作为一名科学家做得更好。
So now jump, I get into college, undergraduate school.
所以现在跳跃，我进入大学，本科学校。
I major in molecular biology and mathematics.
我的专业是分子生物学和数学。
I decide I want to be a biologist.
我决定要成为一名生物学家。
Got into graduate school, wanted to study the brain at the Rockefeller University.
进入研究生院，想在洛克菲勒大学研究大脑。
So I went from Hunter College to Rockefeller University, and so now I got to the brain.
所以我从亨特学院去了洛克菲勒大学，现在我进入了大脑。
And why did I choose the brain?
为什么我选择大脑？
Is because it controls dancing.
是因为它控制着舞蹈。
But there wasn't anybody studying dancing, and I wanted to study the brain, something that it does that's really interesting and complex.
但没有人研究舞蹈，而我想研究大脑，它所做的事情非常有趣和复杂。
And I thought, "Ah, language is what it does." You couldn't study that in mice.
我想，“啊，语言就是它的作用。”你无法在老鼠身上研究这一点。
You couldn't study it in non-human primates, but these birds do this wonderful thing that Fernando Nottebohm was studying at Rockefeller, and so that's what got me into the birds.
你无法在非人类灵长类动物身上进行研究，但这些鸟类做了费尔南多·诺特博姆在洛克菲勒大学研究的奇妙事情，所以这就是让我进入鸟类领域的原因。
And then jumping now 15 years later, yeah, that's right, even after I'm into now having my own lab studying vocal learning in these birds as a model for language in humans, it turns out that Ani Patel and others have discovered that only vocal learning species can learn how to dance.
15 年后的今天，是的，没错，即使我现在开始建立自己的实验室，研究这些鸟类的发声学习，将其作为人类语言的模型，事实证明，阿尼·帕特尔和其他人发现，只有发声学习物种才能学习如何跳舞。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is that right?
是这样吗？
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
That's right.
没错。
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So I've seen these, just scrolling through the files here in my mind.
所以我已经看到了这些，只是在脑海中滚动浏览这些文件。
I think about every once in a while, I love parrots.
我偶尔会想，我喜欢鹦鹉。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Every once in a while, someone will send me one of these little Instagram or Twitter videos of a parrot doing what looks to me like dance.
每隔一段时间，就会有人给我发一些 Instagram 或 Twitter 上的小视频，视频中一只鹦鹉正在做在我看来像是跳舞的事情。
Typically, it's a cockatoo.
通常是凤头鹦鹉。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
With even foot stomping to-
均匀地跺脚——
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
the sound and-
声音和——
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
A famous one called Snowball out there, but there are many Snowballs out there.
那里有一个著名的雪球，但那里有很多雪球。
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
All the dancing birds are named Snowball?
所有跳舞的鸟都叫雪球？
That's an interesting tactic.
这是一个有趣的策略。
So only animals with language dance.
所以只有有语言的动物才会跳舞。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Vocal learning, in particular, the ability to imitate sounds.
声音学习，特别是模仿声音的能力。
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Incredible.
难以置信。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Yes.
是的。
And this now is bringing my life full circle, right?
现在这让我的生活圆满了，对吗？
And so when that was discovered in 2009, at that same time in my lab at Duke, we had discovered that vocal learning brain pathways in songbirds as well as in humans, and in parrots, right, like Snowball, are embedded within circuits that control learning how to move.
因此，当 2009 年发现这一点时，同时在我杜克大学的实验室中，我们发现鸣禽、人类以及鹦鹉（就像雪球）的发声学习大脑通路嵌入在控制学习如何移动的电路中。
And that led us to a theory we call the brain pathway or motor theory of vocal learning origin, where the brain pathways for vocal learning and speech evolve by a whole duplication of the surrounding motor circuits involving learning how to move.
这使我们得出了一种称为声音学习起源的大脑通路或运动理论的理论，其中声音学习和言语的大脑通路是通过周围运动回路的整体复制而进化的，其中涉及学习如何移动。
Now, how does that explain dance, right?
现在，这如何解释舞蹈，对吧？
Well, when Snowball, the cockatoos, are dancing, they're using the brain regions around their speech-like circuits to do this dancing behavior.
好吧，当雪球（凤头鹦鹉）跳舞时，它们会利用其类似语言电路周围的大脑区域来完成这种舞蹈行为。
And so what's going on there?
那么那里发生了什么？
What we hypothesize, and now like to test, is that when speech evolved in humans and the equivalent behavior in parrots and songbirds, it required a very tight integration in the brain regions that can hear sound With the brain regions that control your muscles from moving your larynx and tongue and so forth for producing sound.
我们假设并且现在想要测试的是，当人类进化出语言以及鹦鹉和鸣禽的类似行为时，需要非常紧密地整合可以听到声音的大脑区域与控制肌肉移动喉部和舌头等以产生声音的大脑区域。
And that tight auditory-motor integration, we argue, then contaminated the surrounding brain regions.
我们认为，这种紧密的听觉运动整合随后污染了周围的大脑区域。
And that contamination of the surrounding brain regions now allows us humans, in particular, and parrots, to coordinate our muscle movements of the rest of the body with sound in the same way we do for speech sounds.
现在，周围大脑区域的污染使我们人类，尤其是鹦鹉，能够像我们处理语音一样，通过声音来协调身体其他部分的肌肉运动。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well-
嗯-
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
So we're speaking with our bodies when we dance.
所以当我们跳舞时，我们是在用我们的身体说话。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Incredible.
难以置信。
And I have to say that as poor as I am at speaking multiple languages, I'm even worse at dancing.
我不得不说，尽管我不擅长说多种语言，但我更不擅长跳舞。
So-
所以——
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
But I guarantee you're better than a monkey.
但我保证你比猴子强。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But not Snowball the cockatoo.
但凤头鹦鹉雪球则不然。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Maybe not Snowball.
也许不是雪球。
On YouTube, we have a video where there's some scientists dancing with Snowball.
在 YouTube 上，我们有一段视频，其中一些科学家与雪球跳舞。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, wow.
哦，哇。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
And you'll see Snowball's doing better than some of the scientists.
你会发现斯诺鲍比一些科学家做得更好。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Well, as long as I'm not the worst of all scientists at dancing.
好吧，只要我不是所有科学家中跳舞最差的。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There's always neuroplasticity.
神经可塑性总是存在的。
May it save me someday.
愿有一天它能拯救我。
You said something incredible that I completely believe, even though I have, let's just say minimum dancing ability.
你说了一些我完全相信的不可思议的话，尽管我有，就说最低限度的舞蹈能力吧。
Okay?
好的？
I can get by at a party or wedding without complete embarrassment, but I don't have any structured training.
我可以在聚会或婚礼上毫无尴尬地度过，但我没有接受过任何结构化的培训。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So the body clearly can communicate with movement.
所以身体显然可以通过运动进行交流。
As a trained dancer and knowing other trained dancers, I always think of dance and bodily movement and communication through bodily movement as a form of a wordlessness, like a state of wordlessness.
作为一名受过训练的舞者和认识其他受过训练的舞者，我总是认为舞蹈和身体运动以及通过身体运动进行的交流是一种无言的形式，就像一种无言的状态。
In fact, the few times when I think that maybe I'm actually dancing modestly well for the context that I'm in, or I see other people dancing and they seem to just be very much in the movement, it's almost like a state of non-language, non-spoken language.
事实上，有几次，当我想到也许我实际上在我所处的环境中跳舞得不错，或者我看到其他人跳舞而他们似乎只是在跳舞时，这几乎就像一种非语言、非口语的状态。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And yet what you're telling me is that there's a direct bridge at some level between the movement of the body and language.
然而你告诉我的是，身体运动和语言之间在某种程度上存在着直接的桥梁。
So is there a language of the body that is distinct from the language of speech?
那么是否存在一种不同于言语的身体语言呢？
And if so, or if not, how do those map onto one another?
如果是这样，或者如果不是，它们如何相互映射？
What does that Venn diagram look like?
维恩图是什么样的？
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So, let me define first dance in this context of vocal learning species.
因此，让我在声乐学习物种的背景下定义第一支舞蹈。
This is the kind of dancing that we are specialized in doing, and the vocal learning species are specialized in doing, is synchronizing body movements of muscles to the rhythmic beat of music.
这是我们专门做的舞蹈，也是声乐学习物种专门做的，就是让肌肉的身体动作与音乐的节奏节拍同步。
And for some reason, we like doing that.
出于某种原因，我们喜欢这样做。
We like synchronizing to sound, and doing it together as a group of people.
我们喜欢与声音同步，并作为一群人一起做。
And that kind of communication amongst ourselves is more like the effective kind of communication I mentioned earlier, unlike the semantic kind.
而我们之间的这种沟通更像是我之前提到的有效沟通，而不是语义沟通。
So we humans are using our voices more for the semantic abstract communication, but we're using learned dance for the effective emotional bonding kind of communication.
因此，我们人类更多地使用我们的声音来进行语义抽象交流，但我们使用学到的舞蹈来进行有效的情感联系类型的交流。
It doesn't mean we can't communicate semantic information in dance, and we do it.
这并不意味着我们不能在舞蹈中传达语义信息，但我们确实做到了。
But it's not as popular.
但它并不那么受欢迎。
Like a ballet, in "The Nutcracker," it is popular where they are communicating, the Arabian guy comes out, which I was the Arabian guy in the ballet Nutcracker, that's how I remember.
就像芭蕾舞剧一样，在《胡桃夹子》里，很流行他们在交流的地方，阿拉伯人出来了，我就是芭蕾舞剧《胡桃夹子》里的阿拉伯人，我就是这样记得的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, yeah?
哦，是吗？
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Yeah, for the Westchester Ballet Company when I was a teenager.
是的，当我十几岁的时候，在威彻斯特芭蕾舞团工作过。
We're trying to communicate meaning in our ballet dance, and it can go on with a whole story and so forth.
我们试图在芭蕾舞中传达意义，它可以延续整个故事等等。
But people don't interpret that as clearly as speech.
但人们并不像言语那样清楚地解释它。
They're seeing the ballet with semantic communication with a lot of emotional content.
他们看到的芭蕾舞剧具有语义交流和大量情感内容。
Whereas you go out to a club, you're not communicating, "Okay, how are you feeling today?
当你去俱乐部时，你不会交流：“好吧，你今天感觉怎么样？
Tell me about your day," and so forth.
告诉我你的一天，”等等。
You're trying to synchronize with other people in an effective way.
您正在尝试以有效的方式与其他人同步。
And I think that's because the dance brain circuit inherited the more ancient part of the speech circuit, which was for singing.
我认为这是因为舞蹈大脑回路继承了语音回路的更古老的部分，即唱歌。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I always had the feeling that with certain forms of music, in particular opera, but any kind of music where there are some long notes sung, that at some level there was a literal resonance created between the singer and the listener.
我总有一种感觉，对于某些形式的音乐，特别是歌剧，但任何一种唱长音符的音乐，在某种程度上，歌手和听众之间都会产生真正的共鸣。
Or I think of the deep voice of a Johnny Cash, or where at some level you can almost feel the voice in your own body.
或者我想到约翰尼·卡什低沉的声音，或者在某种程度上你几乎可以感觉到自己身体里的声音。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And in theory, that could be the vibration or the firing of the phrenic nerve controlling the diaphragm for all I know.
理论上，据我所知，这可能是控制膈肌的膈神经的振动或放电。
Is there any evidence that there's a coordination between performer and audience at the level of mind and body?
有没有证据表明表演者和观众在身心层面上存在协调？
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
I'm going to say possibly yes.
我会说可能是的。
And the reason why is because I just came back from a conference on the neurobiology of dance.
原因是我刚刚从舞蹈神经生物学会议回来。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Clearly, I'm going to the wrong meetings.
显然，我去参加了错误的会议。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
A colleague-
一位同事——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Vision science can be so boring.
视觉科学可能很无聊。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Yes.
是的。
One of my colleagues, Tecumseh Fitch and Jonathan Fritz, they organized a particular section on this conference in Virginia.
我的一位同事 Tecumseh Fitch 和 Jonathan Fritz 在弗吉尼亚州的这次会议上组织了一个特别的部分。
And this is the first time I was in the room with so many neuroscientists studying the neurobiology of dance.
这是我第一次和这么多神经科学家一起在一个房间里研究舞蹈的神经生物学。
It's a new field now, in the last five years.
过去五年里，这是一个新领域。
And there was one lab where they were putting EEG electrodes on the dancers, on two different dancers partnering with each other, as well as the audience seeing the dance.
在一个实验室中，他们将脑电图电极放置在舞者身上、两个相互合作的不同舞者身上以及观看舞蹈的观众身上。
And some argued, okay, if you're listening to the music as well, how you're responding, because you're asking a question about music and I'm giving you an answer about dance.
有些人争论说，好吧，如果你也在听音乐，你会如何回应，因为你在问一个关于音乐的问题，而我正在给你一个关于舞蹈的答案。
And what they found is that the dancers, when they resonated with each other during the dance, or the audience listening to the dancers and the music, there is some resonance going on there that they've scored as higher resonance.
他们发现，当舞者在舞蹈中彼此产生共鸣时，或者当观众聆听舞者和音乐时，会产生一些共鸣，他们会获得更高的共鸣。
Their brain activity with these wireless EEG signals are showing something different.
他们的大脑活动与这些无线脑电图信号显示出不同的东西。
And so that's why I say possibly, yet it needs more rigorous study.
这就是为什么我说可能，但它需要更严格的研究。
And this is some stuff they published, but it's not prime time yet.
这是他们发布的一些东西，但现在还不是黄金时段。
But they're trying to figure this out.
但他们正在努力解决这个问题。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I love it.
我喜欢它。
So at least if I can't dance well, maybe I can hear and feel what it is to dance-
所以至少如果我跳舞跳得不好，也许我能听到并感受到跳舞是什么——
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in a certain way.
以某种方式。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
That's right.
没错。
And some people will think that even songs that they hear, and they can almost sing to themselves in their own head, and they know what they want it to sound like, and you know when it really sounds good what it sounds like, but they can't get their voice to do it.
有些人会认为，即使是他们听到的歌曲，他们几乎可以在自己的脑海里唱给自己听，他们知道自己想要听起来像什么，你知道当它真的听起来不错时听起来像什么，但他们无法让自己的声音做到这一点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
For those listening, I'm raising my hand.
对于那些正在听的人，我举手。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No musical ability.
没有音乐能力。
Others in my household have tremendous musical ability with instruments and with voice, but not me.
我家里的其他人在乐器和声音方面都有出色的音乐能力，但我没有。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
And so this is one of my selfish goals of trying to find the genetics of why can some people sing really well and some not.
所以这是我自私的目标之一，试图找到为什么有些人唱歌很好而有些人却唱不好的遗传学。
Is there some genetic predisposition to that?
这是否有某种遗传倾向？
And then can I modify my own muscles or brain circuits to sing better?
然后我可以修改自己的肌肉或大脑回路来唱得更好吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You're still after the singing.
你还在歌声之后。
I guess this is what happens when siblings vary in proficiency is that-
我想这就是当兄弟姐妹的熟练程度不同时会发生的情况是——
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that competitiveness amongst brothers and sisters never goes away.
兄弟姐妹之间的竞争永远不会消失。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
I've been trying to be as good as my brother Mark and Victor for my entire life.
我一生都在努力成为像我的兄弟马克和维克多一样优秀的人。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Watch out, Mark and Victor, he's coming for you with neuroscience to back him.
小心，马克和维克多，他会用神经科学来支持他。
Earlier you said that you discovered that you could dance.
早些时候你说你发现你可以跳舞。
That caught my ear.
这引起了我的注意。
It sounds like you didn't actually have to-- I'm not suggesting you didn't work hard at it-
听起来你实际上不必--我并不是说你没有努力工作--
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
but that at the moment where you discovered it, it just sort of was a skill that you had, that up until that point you didn't target a life in the world of dance.
但在你发现它的那一刻，它只是你所拥有的一项技能，直到那时你并没有以舞蹈世界为目标。
But the fact that you, quote unquote, "discovered" that you could dance really well-
但事实是，你，引用不引用，“发现”你可以跳得很好-
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and then went to this incredible school of dance and did well tells me that perhaps there is an ability that was built up in childhood-
然后去了这所令人难以置信的舞蹈学校，表现很好告诉我，也许有一种能力是在童年时建立起来的——
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and/or that perhaps we do all have different genetic leanings for different motor functions.
和/或也许我们对不同的运动功能都有不同的遗传倾向。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Well, for me, both explanations could be possible.
嗯，对我来说，两种解释都有可能。
For the first, I grew up in a family listening to Motown songs, dancing at parties and so forth, family parties, an African American family, basically.
首先，我是在一个听摩城歌曲、在聚会上跳舞等的家庭长大的，家庭聚会，基本上是一个非裔美国人家庭。
And so I grew up dancing from a young child.
所以我从小就跳舞。
But this discovery, maybe dancing even more so in terms of a talent.
但这个发现，或许在舞蹈方面更具有天赋。
The genetic component, if it really exists, I don't know.
遗传成分，如果真的存在，我不知道。
With my 23andMe results, it says I have the genetic substitutions that are associated with high-intensity athletes and fast-twitch muscles.
根据我的 23andMe 结果，它表明我具有与高强度运动员和快肌收缩相关的基因替代。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
And who knows, maybe that could have something to do with me being able to synchronize my body to rhythmic sounds maybe better than some others.
谁知道呢，也许这可能与我能够比其他人更好地将我的身体与有节奏的声音同步有关。
It turns out that my genetics also show that I have a genetic substitute that makes it hard for me to sing on pitch.
事实证明，我的基因也表明我有一种基因替代品，这使得我很难在音高上唱歌。
And so that does correlate with my...
所以这确实与我的......
Even though I can sing on this pitch, especially if I hear a piano or it's kind of playing it, but maybe that's why my siblings, who didn't have that genetic predisposition in his 23andMe results, it could go along with the genetic component as well.
尽管我可以用这个音调唱歌，尤其是当我听到钢琴声或钢琴演奏时，但这也许就是为什么我的兄弟姐妹在 23andMe 的结果中没有这种遗传倾向，但它也可能与遗传因素有关。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm imagining family gatherings with 23andMe data and intense arguments about it.
我想象着家庭聚会上有 23andMe 的数据以及对此进行的激烈争论。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Innate and learned ability.
天生的和后天习得的能力。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Fun.
有趣。
Love to be in attendance.
喜欢参加。
I'm not inviting myself to your Thanksgiving dinner, by the way, but I suppose I am.
顺便说一句，我不会邀请自己参加你们的感恩节晚餐，但我想我是。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
You're welcome to.
欢迎您来。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thank you.
谢谢你。
I'll bring my 23andMe data.
我会带上我的 23andMe 数据。
I'd love to chat a moment about facial expression.
我很想聊聊面部表情。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because that's a form of motor pattern that I think for most people out there just think about smiling and frowning, but there are, of course, thousands if not millions of microexpressions and things of that sort, many of which are subconscious.
因为这是一种运动模式，我认为对于大多数人来说，只会想到微笑和皱眉，但当然，有数千甚至数百万的微表情和类似的东西，其中许多是潜意识的。
And we are all familiar with the fact that when what somebody says doesn't match some specific feature of their facial expression, that mismatch can cue our attention.
我们都熟悉这样一个事实：当某人所说的话与他们面部表情的某些特定特征不匹配时，这种不匹配会引起我们的注意。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Especially among people that know each other very well.
尤其是在彼此非常了解的人之间。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Like somebody will say, "Well, you said that, but your right eye twitched a little bit in a way that tells me that you didn't really mean that." These kinds of things.
就像有人会说，“好吧，你这么说，但你的右眼有点抽搐，这告诉我你并不是真的那个意思。”诸如此类的事情。
Or in the opposite example, when the emotionality and the content of our speech is matched to a facial expression, there's something that's just so wonderful about that because it seems like everything's aligned.
或者在相反的例子中，当我们演讲的情感和内容与面部表情相匹配时，就会有一些非常美妙的事情，因为看起来一切都是一致的。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So how does the motor circuitry that controls facial expression map onto the brain circuits that control language, speech, and even bodily and hand movements?
那么，控制面部表情的运动电路如何映射到控制语言、言语甚至身体和手部运动的大脑电路上呢？
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
You ask a great question because we both know some colleagues like Winrich Freiwald at Rockefeller University who study facial expression and the neurobiology behind it.
你问了一个很好的问题，因为我们都认识像洛克菲勒大学的 Winrich Freiwald 这样的同事，他们研究面部表情及其背后的神经生物学。
And now we both share some students that we're co-mentoring and talk about this same question that you brought up.
现在我们分享了一些我们共同指导的学生，并讨论了您提出的同一问题。
And what I'm learning a lot is that non-human primates have a lot of diversity in their facial expression like we humans do.
我学到的很多东西是，非人类灵长类动物的面部表情和我们人类一样有很多多样性。
And what we know about the neurobiology of brain regions controlling those muscles of the face is that these non-human primates and some other species that don't learn how to imitate vocalizations, they have strong connections from the cortical regions to the motor neurons that control facial expressions, but absent connections or weak connections to the motor neurons that control the voice.
我们对控制面部肌肉的大脑区域的神经生物学了解是，这些非人类灵长类动物和其他一些不学习如何模仿发声的物种，它们从皮质区域到控制面部表情的运动神经元有很强的连接，但与控制声音的运动神经元缺乏连接或连接较弱。
So I think our diverse facial expression, even though it's more diverse in these non-human primates, there was already a preexisting diversity of communication, whether it's intentional or unconscious, through facial expression in our ancestors.
所以我认为我们多样化的面部表情，尽管在这些非人类灵长类动物中更加多样化，但在我们的祖先中，已经存在通过面部表情进行的交流的多样性，无论是有意的还是无意识的。
And on top of that, we humans now add the voice along with those facial expressions.
最重要的是，我们人类现在添加了声音和面部表情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I see.
我明白了。
And in terms of language learning when we're kids, children fortunately are not told to fake their expressions or to smile when they say, "I'm happy."
就我们小时候的语言学习而言，幸运的是，孩子们在说“我很高兴”时没有假装表情或微笑。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So at some point, everybody learns, for better or for worse, how to untangle these different components of hand movement, body posture, speech, and-
因此，在某些时候，无论好坏，每个人都会学习如何理清手部动作、身体姿势、言语的这些不同组成部分，以及——
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
facial expression.
面部表情。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But in their best form, I would say, assuming that the best form is always-- I guess there are instances where, for safety reasons, one might need to feign some of these aspects of language.
但我想说，假设最好的形式总是——我想在某些情况下，出于安全原因，人们可能需要假装语言的某些方面。
But in most cases, when those are aligned, it seems like that could reflect that all the different circuitries are operating in parallel, but that the ability to misalign these is also a powerful aspect to our maturation.
但在大多数情况下，当这些对齐时，似乎可以反映出所有不同的电路都是并行运行的，但错位这些电路的能力也是我们成熟的一个强大方面。
I even think of theater, for instance, where deliberate disentangling of these areas is important, but also we know when an actor, when it feels real.
例如，我什至想到戏剧，其中故意解开这些领域很重要，但我们也知道什么时候是演员，什么时候感觉真实。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And when bad acting is oftentimes when the facial expression or body posture just doesn't quite match what we're hearing.
糟糕的表演通常是面部表情或身体姿势与我们听到的不太相符。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So are these skills that people learn and acquire according to adaptability and profession, or do you think that all children and all adults eventually learn how to couple and uncouple these circuits-
那么这些技能是人们根据适应性和职业来学习和获得的，还是你认为所有的孩子和所有的成年人最终都会学会如何耦合和解耦这些电路——
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
a little bit?
一点点？
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Yeah, I think it's this similar argument I mentioned earlier about the innate and learned for the vocalizations.
是的，我认为这与我之前提到的关于先天和后天发声的类似论点有关。
And by the way, when I say we humans have facial expressions associated with our vocalizations in a different way than primates, non-human primates, it's the learned vocalizations I'm talking about.
顺便说一句，当我说我们人类的面部表情与我们的发声相关时，其方式与灵长类动物、非人类灵长类动物不同，我所说的是习得的发声。
So there is a common view out there that facial expressions in non-human species, like non-human primates, or you can have them in birds too, are innate.
因此，人们普遍认为，非人类物种（例如非人类灵长类动物）的面部表情是与生俱来的，或者鸟类也有面部表情。
All right?
好的？
And so they're reflexive controlled.
所以他们是反射性控制的。
I don't believe that.
我不相信。
I think there's some learned component to it, and I think we have more learning component to it as well.
我认为其中有一些学习的成分，而且我认为我们也有更多的学习成分。
But we also have an innate component.
但我们也有一个与生俱来的成分。
And so if you try to put your hands behind your back and hold your fists, or even just not, and try to speak and try to communicate, it's actually harder to do.
因此，如果你试图把手放在背后并握紧拳头，或者甚至不这样做，并尝试说话并尝试沟通，那么实际上更难做到。
You have to force yourself or put it by your side.
你必须强迫自己，或者把它放在你身边。
This comes naturally.
这是自然而然的。
Facial expressions comes naturally because there is an innate component.
面部表情是自然而然的，因为有与生俱来的成分。
And yes, you have to learn how to dissociate the two, communicate something angry with your hands or with your face, but politely with your voice.
是的，你必须学会如何将两者分开，用你的手或你的脸来表达愤怒，但有礼貌地用你的声音。
It's very hard to separate at those two because there is that innate component that brings them together.
这两者很难分开，因为有一种内在的成分将它们结合在一起。
So it's like an email, too.
所以它也像一封电子邮件。
You're emailing and someone says something by email.
您正在发送电子邮件，有人通过电子邮件说了一些话。
Someone can interpret that angrily or gently, and it becomes ambiguous.
有人可以愤怒地或温和地解释它，它就会变得模棱两可。
The facial expressions get rid of that ambiguity.
面部表情消除了这种歧义。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm so glad you brought that up because my next question was, and is about written language.
我很高兴你提出这个问题，因为我的下一个问题是关于书面语言的。
The first question I'll ask is, when you write, either type or write things out by hand, do you hear the content of what you want to write in your head?
我要问的第一个问题是，当你写作时，无论是打字还是手写，你能在脑海中听到你想写的内容吗？
Just you personally.
只是你个人。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Yes, I do.
是的，我愿意。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
And I know that I do because I was trying to figure out a debate about this issue and trying to resolve the debate with my own self-experimentation on me.
我知道我这样做是因为我试图找出关于这个问题的辩论，并试图通过我自己的自我实验来解决辩论。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I ask that because a quite well-known colleague of ours, Karl Deisseroth at Stanford, who's been on this podcast, and is of optogenetics fame and psychiatry fame, et cetera.
我这么问是因为我们的一位非常知名的同事，斯坦福大学的 Karl Deisseroth，曾参加过这个播客，并且在光遗传学和精神病学等领域享有盛誉。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Yep.
是的。
And I know him.
我认识他。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
He sends his regards.
他致以问候。
Yeah.
是的。
And told me that his practice for writing and for thinking involves a quite painful process of forcing himself to sit completely still and think in complete sentences, to force thinking in complete sentences.
他告诉我，他的写作和思考练习是一个相当痛苦的过程，强迫自己完全安静地坐着，用完整的句子思考，强迫自己用完整的句子思考。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And when he told me that, I decided to try this exercise, and it's quite difficult.
当他告诉我这些时，我决定尝试这个练习，这非常困难。
First of all, it's difficult for the reason that you mentioned, which is that with many thoughts, I want to look around, and I start to gesticulate with my hands.
首先，你提到的原因是很难，就是我有很多想法，我想环顾四周，我开始用手比划。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So there it is again, the connection between language and hand movement, even if one isn't speaking.
所以，语言和手部动作之间的联系再次出现，即使一个人不说话。
And the other part that's challenging is I realized that while we write in complete sentences, most of the time, we'll talk about how that's changing now in-
另一件具有挑战性的部分是我意识到，虽然我们写的是完整的句子，但大多数时候，我们会讨论现在的情况是如何变化的——
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
texting, et cetera, that we don't often think in complete sentences, and specifically in simple declarative sentences.
发短信等等，我们通常不会用完整的句子来思考，特别是简单的陈述句。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That a lot of our thoughts would be, if they were written out onto a page, would look pretty much like passive language that a good copy editor or a good editor would say, "Ugh, we need to cross this out and make this simple and declarative." So what I'm getting at here is what is the process of going from a thought to language to written word?
我们的很多想法如果写在纸上，看起来很像被动语言，一个好的文案编辑或一个好的编辑会说，“呃，我们需要把它划掉，让它变得简单和声明性。”那么我在这里想了解的是从思想到语言再到书面文字的过程是什么？
And I also wanted to touch on handwritten versus typed, but thought to language to written word.
我还想谈谈手写与打字，以及思想到语言到书面文字。
What's going on there?
那里发生了什么事？
What do we know about the neural circuitry?
我们对神经回路了解多少？
And I was going to ask, why is it so hard?
我想问，为什么这么难？
But now I want to ask, why is this even possible?
但现在我想问，为什么这可能？
It seems like a very challenging neural computational problem.
这似乎是一个非常具有挑战性的神经计算问题。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
And coming from the linguistic world, and even just the regular neurobiology world, going back to something I said before about a separate language module in the brain, there was this thought or hypothesis that this language module has all these complex algorithms to them, and they're signaling to the speech circuit How to produce the sounds, the hand circuit, how to write them or gesture, the visual pathway on how to interpret them from reading, and the auditory pathway for listening.
来自语言世界，甚至只是常规的神经生物学世界，回到我之前所说的关于大脑中独立语言模块的事情，有这样的想法或假设，即这个语言模块拥有所有这些复杂的算法，它们向语音回路发出信号，告诉它们如何产生声音，手部回路，如何书写或手势，如何从阅读中解释它们的视觉通路，以及聆听的听觉通路。
I don't think that's the case.
我认为情况并非如此。
All right?
好的？
And that this thinking where there's this internal speech going on.
这种想法发生在内部演讲中。
What I think is going on is, to explain what you're asking, is about...
我认为正在发生的是，为了解释你所问的问题，是关于......
I'm going to take it from the perspective of reading something.
我将从阅读某些东西的角度来看待它。
You read something on a paper, the signal from the paper goes through your eyes, it goes to the back of your brain to your visual cortical regions eventually, and then you now got to interpret that signal in your visual pathway of what you're reading.
你在纸上阅读一些内容，纸上的信号通过你的眼睛，最终到达你的大脑后部到你的视觉皮层区域，然后你现在必须在你正在阅读的内容的视觉通路中解释该信号。
How are you going to do that in terms of speech?
在演讲方面你打算如何做到这一点？
That visual signal then goes to your speech pathway in the motor cortex in front here in Broca's area, and you silently speak what you read in your brain without moving your muscles.
然后，该视觉信号进入布罗卡区前方运动皮层的言语通路，您可以默默地说出您在大脑中读到的内容，而无需移动肌肉。
And sometimes, actually, if you put electrodes, EEG, EMG electrodes on your laryngeal muscles, even on birds you can do this, you'll see activity there while you're reading or trying to speak silently even though no sound's coming out.
有时，实际上，如果你把电极、脑电图、肌电图电极放在你的喉部肌肉上，即使是在鸟类身上，你也可以这样做，当你阅读或试图无声说话时，即使没有声音发出，你也会看到那里的活动。
And so your speech pathway is now speaking what you're reading.
所以你的言语路径现在正在说出你正在阅读的内容。
Now to finish it off, that signal is sent to your auditory pathway so you can hear what you're speaking in your own head.
现在，为了完成它，该信号被发送到您的听觉通路，这样您就可以听到自己在脑海中所说的话。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's incredible.
这太不可思议了。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
And this is why it's complicated, because you're using three different pathways, the visual, the speaking motor one, and the auditory to read.
这就是为什么它很复杂，因为你使用三种不同的途径，视觉、说话运动和听觉来阅读。
Oh, and then you got to write, right?
哦，然后你必须写，对吧？
Okay, here comes the fourth one.
好的，第四个来了。
Now the hand area next to your speech pathway has got to take that auditory signal or even the adjacent motor signals for speaking and translate it into a visual signal on paper.
现在，靠近言语通道的手部区域必须接收听觉信号，甚至邻近的运动信号来说话，并将其转化为纸上的视觉信号。
So you're using at least four brain circuits, which includes the speech production and the speech perception pathways to write.
所以你至少使用了四个大脑回路，其中包括言语产生和言语感知通路来写作。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Incredible.
难以置信。
And finally explains to me why when I...
最后向我解释为什么当我...
So I was weaned teaching undergraduates, graduate students, and medical students, and I've observed that when I'm teaching, I have to stop speaking if I'm going to write something on the board.
所以我开始教本科生、研究生和医学院的学生，我观察到，当我教学时，如果我要在黑板上写点什么，我就必须停止说话。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I just have to stop all speaking completely.
我只需要完全停止说话。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It turns out this is an advantage because it allows me to catch my voice, it allows me to slow down a bit, breathe and inhale some oxygen and so on, because I tend to speak quickly if I'm not writing something out.
事实证明这是一个优势，因为它可以让我听清自己的声音，可以让我放慢一点速度，呼吸并吸入一些氧气等等，因为如果我不写东西，我往往会说得很快。
So there's a break in the circuitry for me, or at least they are distinct enough that I have to stop and then write something down.
所以我的电路出现了中断，或者至少它们足够明显，我必须停下来写下一些东西。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Yes, that does imply competing brain circuits for your conscious attention.
是的，这确实意味着大脑回路会争夺你的意识注意力。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We have colleagues up at Columbia Med who are known, at least in our circles, for voice dictating their papers, not writing them out.
我们在哥伦比亚医学院有一些同事，至少在我们的圈子里，他们以用声音听写论文而不是写出来而闻名。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But just speaking into a voice recorder.
但只是对着录音机说话。
I've written papers that way.
我就是这样写论文的。
It doesn't feel quite as natural for me as writing things out.
对我来说，这不像把事情写下来那么自然。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But not because I can go quickly from thought to language to typing.
但这并不是因为我可以快速从思想到语言再到打字。
I type reasonably fast.
我打字速度相当快。
I can touch type now.
我现在可以触摸打字了。
I think I taught myself.
我想我自学了。
I never took a touch typing-
我从来没有接触过打字-
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
course.
当然。
It just sort of happened.
它就这么发生了。
Now my motor system seems to know where the keys are with enough accuracy that it works.
现在我的运动系统似乎足够准确地知道按键在哪里，可以正常工作。
This is remarkable to me that any of us can do this.
对我来说这是很了不起的，我们任何人都可以做到这一点。
But when it comes to writing, what I've found is that if my rate of thought and my rate of writing are aligned nicely, things go well.
但当谈到写作时，我发现如果我的思考速度和写作速度很好地结合起来，事情就会进展顺利。
However, if I'm thinking much faster than I can write, that's a problem, and certainly if I'm thinking more slowly than I want to write, that's also a problem.
然而，如果我的思考速度比我的写作速度快得多，那就是一个问题，当然，如果我的思考速度比我想写的速度慢，那也是一个问题。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And the solution for me has been to write with a pen.
对我来说，解决方案就是用笔写字。
I'm in love with these, and I have no relationship to the company, at least not now, although if they want to work with us.
我爱上了这些，而且我与公司没有任何关系，至少现在没有，尽管如果他们想与我们合作。
I love these Pilot V5, V7s not necessarily because of the ink or the feel, although I like that as well, but because of the rate that it allows me to write.
我喜欢这些 Pilot V5、V7 不一定是因为墨水或手感，虽然我也喜欢这一点，但因为它让我写字的速度。
They write very well slowly, and they write very well quickly.
他们慢写得很好，快写得也很好。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And so I have this theory, supported only by my own anecdata, no peer-reviewed study, that writing by hand is fundamentally different than typing out information.
因此，我有这样的理论，仅由我自己的轶事支持，没有经过同行评审的研究，手写与打字信息根本不同。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is there any evidence that this motor pathway for writing is better or somehow different than the motor pathway for typing?
是否有任何证据表明这种书写运动通路比打字运动通路更好或有所不同？
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Yeah, that's interesting.
是的，这很有趣。
And I don't know of any studies.
而且我不知道有什么研究。
I have my own personal experience as well, but trying to put this into the context, if I had to design an experiment to test a hypothesis here to explain your experience and mine is that writing by hand, I would argue, requires a different set of less skills with the fingers than typing.
我也有自己的个人经历，但试图将其融入到上下文中，如果我必须设计一个实验来检验一个假设来解释你和我的经历，我认为，手写需要一套不同的手指技能，而不是打字。
So you have to coordinate your fingers more in opposite directions and so forth with typing.
因此，打字时您必须在相反方向上更多地协调手指等等。
But also writing by hand requires more arm movement.
但手写也需要更多的手臂运动。
And so therefore, I would argue that the difficulty there could be in the types of muscles and the fine motor control you need of those muscles, along with speaking in your brain at the same time.
因此，我认为困难可能在于肌肉的类型和这些肌肉所需的精细运动控制，以及同时在大脑中说话。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So basically, I'm coarse, I'm a brute.
所以基本上，我很粗鲁，我是一个野蛮人。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And so it makes sense that a more primitive writing device would work.
因此，更原始的书写设备能够发挥作用是有道理的。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Yes.
是的。
But let me add to this in terms of my own personal experience, right?
但让我根据我自己的个人经历补充一下，对吗？
What I find is I can write something faster by hand for a short period of time compared to typing And that is because I think I run out of the energy in my arm movements faster than I run out of muscle energy in my finger movements.
我发现，与打字相比，我可以在短时间内用手写一些更快的东西，这是因为我认为我在手臂运动中耗尽能量的速度比在手指运动中耗尽肌肉能量的速度更快。
And I think it takes a longer time for us to write words with our fingers, because in terms of the speech.
我认为我们用手指写字需要更长的时间，因为就演讲而言。
So I think your writing, whether it's by hand or typing into your speech, it only will align very well if you can type as fast as you can speak or write as fast as you can speak in your head.
所以我认为你的写作，无论是手写还是在演讲中打字，只有当你打字的速度和说话的速度一样快，或者写的速度和你在脑子里说话的速度一样快时，它才会很好地对齐。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I love it.
我喜欢它。
So what you've done, if I understand correctly, is created a bridge between thought and writing, and that bridge is speech.
所以，如果我理解正确的话，你所做的就是在思想和写作之间架起了一座桥梁，而这座桥梁就是言语。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
That bridge is speech.
这座桥梁就是言语。
That's right.
这是正确的。
When you're writing something out, you're speaking it to yourself, and if you're speaking faster than you can type, you got a problem.
当你写出一些东西时，你就是在自言自语，如果你说话的速度比打字的速度快，那么你就会遇到问题。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Interesting.
有趣。
I do a number of podcast episodes that are not with guests, but solo episodes.
我制作了一些播客节目，这些节目不是与嘉宾一起，而是单独播放。
And as listeners know, these are very long episodes, often two or more hours.
正如听众所知，这些剧集都很长，通常是两个小时或更长时间。
And we joke around the podcast studio that I will get locked into a mode of speech where some of it is more elaborative and anecdotal, and then I'll punch out simple declarative sentences.
我们在播客工作室里开玩笑说，我会陷入一种讲话模式，其中一些内容更加详尽和轶事，然后我会打出简单的陈述性句子。
I find it very hard to switch from one module to the next.
我发现从一个模块切换到下一个模块非常困难。
The thing that I have done in order to make that transition more fluid and prep for those podcast episodes is actually to read the lyrics of songs-
为了使这种过渡更加流畅并为那些播客剧集做好准备，我所做的事情实际上是阅读歌曲的歌词 -
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and to sing them in my head as a way of warming up my vocal cords.
并在脑海中唱出它们作为温暖声带的一种方式。
But luckily for those around me, when I do that, I'm not actually singing out loud.
但幸运的是，对于我周围的人来说，当我这样做时，我实际上并没有大声唱歌。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And so what you're telling me supports this idea that even when we are imagining singing or writing in our mind, we are exercising our vocal cords.
所以你告诉我的内容支持了这个观点，即即使我们在脑海中想象唱歌或写作，我们也在锻炼我们的声带。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
You're actually getting little low potentials of electrical currents reaching your muscles there, which also means you're exercising your speech brain circuits too, without actually going with the full volume activity in the muscles.
实际上，到达肌肉的低电位电流很少，这也意味着您也在锻炼您的言语大脑回路，而实际上并没有进行肌肉的全部活动。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Incredible.
难以置信。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
And this idea of singing helps you as well, even with Parkinson's patients and so forth, when they want to say something, singing or listening to music helps them move better.
唱歌的想法也对你有帮助，即使是帕金森病患者等，当他们想说些什么时，唱歌或听音乐可以帮助他们更好地移动。
And the idea there is that the brain circuits for singing, or let's say the function of the brain circuits for speech being used for singing first is the more ancestral trait, and that's why it's easier to do things with singing sometimes than it is with speaking.
那里的想法是，唱歌的大脑回路，或者说首先用于唱歌的语音大脑回路的功能是更古老的特征，这就是为什么有时用唱歌做事比用说话更容易。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I love it.
我喜欢它。
Stutter is a particularly interesting case, and one that every once in a while I'll get questions about this from our audience.
口吃是一个特别有趣的案例，每隔一段时间我就会从观众那里听到关于这个问题的问题。
Stutter is complicated in a number of ways, but culturally, and my understanding from these emails that I receive is that stutter can often cause people to hide and speak less.
口吃在很多方面都很复杂，但从文化角度来看，我从收到的这些电子邮件中了解到，口吃往往会导致人们隐藏和少说话。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because it can be embarrassing, and we are often not patient with stutter.
因为这可能会令人尴尬，而且我们常常对口吃没有耐心。
We also have the assumption that if somebody's stuttering, that their thinking is slow.
我们还假设，如果一个人口吃，那么他的思维就很慢。
But it turns out there are many examples historically of people who could not speak well, but who were brilliant thinkers.
但事实证明，历史上有很多例子表明，虽然说话不好，但他们却是杰出的思想家。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I don't know how well they could write, but they found other modes of communication.
我不知道他们能写得多好，但他们找到了其他沟通方式。
I realize that you're not a speech pathologist or therapist, but what is the current neurobiological understanding of stutter, and what's being developed in terms of treatments for stutter?
我知道您不是言语病理学家或治疗师，但目前对口吃的神经生物学理解是什么？口吃治疗方面正在开发什么？
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So we actually accidentally came across stuttering in songbirds, and we've published several papers on this to try to figure out the neurobiological basis.
所以我们实际上无意中发现了鸣禽的口吃现象，我们已经发表了几篇关于此问题的论文，试图找出其神经生物学基础。
The first study we had was a brain area called the basal ganglia, or the striatum part of the basal ganglia, involved in coordinating movements, learning how to make movements.
我们的第一项研究是一个称为基底神经节或基底神经节纹状体部分的大脑区域，它参与协调运动，学习如何进行运动。
When it was damaged in a speech-like pathway in these birds, what we found is that they started to stutter as the brain region recovered.
当这些鸟类的类似语言的通路受损时，我们发现，随着大脑区域的恢复，它们开始口吃。
And unlike humans, they actually recovered after three or four months.
与人类不同的是，它们实际上在三四个月后就康复了。
And why is that the case?
为什么会这样呢？
Because bird brains undergoes new neurogenesis in a way that human or mammal brains don't.
因为鸟类的大脑会经历新的神经发生，而人类或哺乳动物的大脑则不会。
And it was the new neurons that were coming in into the circuit, but not quite with the right proper activity, was resulting in this stuttering in these birds.
正是新的神经元进入了回路，但没有完全发挥正确的活动，导致了这些鸟的口吃。
And after it was repaired, not exactly the old song came back after the repair, but still, it recovered a lot better.
而且修复之后，虽然不完全是老歌修复回来了，但是，还是恢复的好很多了。
And it's now known, they call this neurogenic stuttering in humans, with damage to the basal ganglia or some type of disruption to the basal ganglia at a young age also causes stuttering in humans.
现在人们知道，他们称之为人类神经源性口吃，基底神经节受损或基底神经节在年轻时受到某种类型的破坏也会导致人类口吃。
And even those who are born with stuttering, it's often the basal ganglia that's disrupted than some other brain circuit, and we think the speech part of the basal ganglia.
即使是那些天生口吃的人，也常常是基底神经节比其他大脑回路受到干扰，我们认为言语是基底神经节的一部分。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Can adults who maintain a stutter from childhood repair that stutter?
从小就有口吃的成年人可以修复口吃吗？
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
They can repair it with therapy, with learning how to speak slower, learning how to tap out a rhythm during stutter.
他们可以通过治疗来修复它，学习如何放慢说话速度，学习如何在口吃时敲出节奏。
And yeah, I'm not a speech pathologist, but I started reading this literature and talking to others, colleagues who actually study stuttering.
是的，我不是言语病理学家，但我开始阅读这些文献并与其他真正研究口吃的同事交谈。
So yes, there are ways to overcome the stuttering through behavioral therapy.
所以，是的，有一些方法可以通过行为疗法来克服口吃。
And I think all of the tools out there have something to do with sensory-motor integration.
我认为所有的工具都与感觉运动整合有关。
Controlling what you hear with what you output in a thoughtful, controlled way helps reduce the stuttering.
以深思熟虑、可控的方式控制你听到的内容和你输出的内容有助于减少口吃。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There are a couple examples from real life that I want to touch on, and one is somewhat facetious, but now I realize is a serious neurobiological issue.
我想谈几个现实生活中的例子，其中一个有点搞笑，但现在我意识到这是一个严重的神经生物学问题。
Serious meaning, I think, interesting, which is that every once in a while I will have a conversation with somebody who says the last word of the sentence along with me.
我想，严肃的意思很有趣，那就是每隔一段时间我就会和一个和我一起说这句话最后一个字的人交谈。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it seems annoying in some instances, but I'm guessing this is just a breakthrough of the motor pattern that they're hearing what I'm saying very well.
在某些情况下这似乎很烦人，但我猜这只是运动模式的突破，他们很好地听到了我所说的话。
So I'm going to interpret this kindly and think they're hearing what I'm saying, they're literally hearing it in their mind-
所以我会善意地解释这一点，并认为他们正在听到我所说的话，他们确实在脑海中听到了-
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and they're getting that low-level electrical activity to their throat, and they're just joining me in the enunciation of what I'm saying, probably without realizing it.
他们的喉咙里有低水平的电活动，他们只是和我一起发音，可能没有意识到。
Can we assume that that might be the case?
我们可以假设情况可能是这样吗？
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Well, I wouldn't be surprised.
嗯，我不会感到惊讶。
So the motor theory of speech perception, where this idea originally came, what you hear is going through your speech circuit and then also activating those muscles slightly.
因此，言语感知的运动理论，这个想法最初是从你听到的声音通过你的言语回路，然后稍微激活那些肌肉。
So yes.
所以是的。
So one might argue, okay, is that speech circuit now interpreting what that person is speaking, now you listening to me, and is going to finish it off because it's already going through their brain and they can predict it?
所以有人可能会说，好吧，语音电路现在正在解释那个人在说什么，现在你在听我说话，并且会结束它，因为它已经通过了他们的大脑并且他们可以预测它？
That would be one theory.
这只是一种理论。
I don't think the verdict out there is known, but that's one.
我认为目前的判决尚不清楚，但事实就是如此。
The other is synchronizing turn-taking in the conversation where you're acknowledging that we understand each other by finishing off what I say.
另一个是在对话中同步轮流，你通过完成我所说的话来承认我们彼此理解。
And it's almost like a social bonding kind of thing.
这几乎就像一种社会联系。
The other could be, I want the person to shut up so I can speak as well and take that turn.
另一种可能是，我希望那个人闭嘴，这样我也可以说话并轮流发言。
And each pair of people have a rhythm to their conversation.
每一对人的谈话都有一个节奏。
And if you have somebody who's over-talkative versus under-talkative or vice versa, that rhythm can be lost in them finishing ideas and going back and forth.
如果有人话多或话少，反之亦然，那么他们在完成想法和来来回回时可能会失去节奏。
But I think having something to do with turn-taking as well makes a lot of sense.
但我认为与轮流有关也很有意义。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I have a colleague at Stanford who says that interruption is a sign of interest.
我在斯坦福大学的一位同事说，打扰是兴趣的表现。
I'm not sure that everyone agrees.
我不确定每个人都同意。
I think it's highly contextual.
我认为这是高度相关的。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But there is this form of a verbal nod-
但有一种口头点头的形式——
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
of saying, "Mm-hmm," or things of that sort.
说“嗯嗯”或诸如此类的话。
And there are many of these.
其中有很多。
And I'm often told by my audience that I don't interrupt my guests and things of that sort.
我的听众经常告诉我，我不会打断我的客人或类似的事情。
Oftentimes, I'll just get caught in the natural flow of the conversation.
很多时候，我会陷入自然的谈话之中。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But-
但是——
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Well, I think we've had pretty good turn-taking here, I hope.
好吧，我希望我们在这里进行了很好的轮流。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So far, so good.
到目前为止，一切都很好。
I'm glad-
我很高兴-
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
I feel that way
我有这样的感觉
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I'm glad you feel that way because especially in the context of a discussion about language-
我很高兴你有这样的感觉，因为尤其是在讨论语言的背景下——
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
this seems important.
这似乎很重要。
Texting is a very, very interesting evolution of language because what you've told us is that we have a thought, it's translated into language.
发短信是一种非常非常有趣的语言演变，因为你告诉我们的是我们有一个想法，它被翻译成语言。
It might not be complete sentences, but texting, I have to imagine this is the first time in human evolution where we've written with our thumbs.
它可能不是完整的句子，但发短信，我想这是人类进化中第一次用拇指写字。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So it seems more primitive to me than typing with fingers or with hands-
所以对我来说这比用手指或手打字更原始-
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
but hey, who am I to judge the evolution of our species in one direction or the other?
但是，嘿，我有什么资格来判断我们物种朝一个方向或另一个方向的进化呢？
But the shorthand, often grammatically deficient, incomplete sentence form of texting is an incredible thing to see.
但短信的速记、通常语法上有缺陷、不完整的句子形式是一件令人难以置信的事情。
Early in relationships, romantic relationships, people will often evaluate the other's text and their ability to use proper grammar and spelling, et cetera.
在恋爱关系的早期，人们经常会评估对方的文本以及他们使用正确语法和拼写等的能力。
This often quickly degrades, and there's an acceptance that we're just trying to communicate through shorthand.
这通常很快就会退化，并且人们认为我们只是试图通过速记进行交流。
Almost military-like shorthand, internally consistent between people, but there's no general consensus of what things mean.
几乎像军事一样的速记，人们之间内部一致，但对于事物的含义却没有达成普遍共识。
But WTFs and OMGs and all sorts of things.
但WTF和OMG以及各种各样的事情。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I wonder sometimes whether or not we are getting less proficient at speech because we are not required to write and think in complete sentences.
有时我想知道我们是否在言语方面变得不那么熟练，因为我们不需要用完整的句子来写作和思考。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm not being judgmental here.
我在这里并不是要做出评判。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I see this in my colleagues.
我在同事身上看到了这一点。
I see this in myself.
我在自己身上看到了这一点。
This is not a judgment of the younger generation.
这不是年轻一代的判断。
I also know that slang has existed for decades, if not hundreds of years.
我还知道俚语已经存在了几十年，甚至数百年。
But I also know that I don't speak the same way that I did when I was a teenager because I've suppressed a lot of that slang, not because it's inappropriate or offensive, although some of it was, frankly, but because it's out of context.
但我也知道，我说话的方式与我十几岁的时候不同，因为我压抑了很多俚语，不是因为它们不合适或冒犯性，尽管坦率地说，其中有些是，但因为它断章取义。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So what do you think is happening to language?
那么你认为语言正在发生什么变化呢？
Are we getting better at speaking, worse at speaking?
我们的说话能力是变得更好还是更差？
And what do you think the role of things like texting and tweeting and shorthand communication, hashtagging, what's that doing to the way that our brains work?
你认为短信、推特、速记通讯、主题标签等事物的作用是什么？它们对我们大脑的工作方式有何影响？
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
I think that, one, in terms of measuring your level of sophistication intelligence and you say OMG, I think that also could be a cultural thing that, ah, you belong to the next generation or you're being cool if you're an older person using OMG and other things that the younger generation would use.
我认为，一，在衡量你的复杂智力水平方面，你说天哪，我认为这也可能是一种文化，啊，你属于下一代，或者如果你是一个老年人，使用天哪和年轻一代会使用的其他东西，你就很酷。
But if I really think about it clearly, texting actually has allowed for more rapid communication amongst people.
但如果我认真思考一下，短信实际上让人们之间的沟通变得更加快捷。
I think without the invention of the phone before then or texting back and forth, you had to wait days for a letter to show up.
我想如果在那之前没有电话或来回发短信的话，你必须等待几天才能收到一封信。
You couldn't call somebody on the phone and talk as well.
你不能打电话给某人并交谈。
And so this rapid communication, in terms of the rapid communication of writing in this case.
因此，这种快速沟通，就本例中写作的快速沟通而言。
So I think actually it's more like a use it or lose it kind of a thing with the brain.
所以我认为实际上这更像是一个使用它或失去它的大脑之类的事情。
The more you use a particular brain region or circuit, the more enhanced.
您使用特定大脑区域或回路的次数越多，增强的效果就越多。
It's like a muscle.
它就像一块肌肉。
The more you exercise it, the more healthier it is, the bigger it becomes, and the more space it takes, and the more you lose something else.
你锻炼得越多，它就越健康，它就变得越大，占用的空间就越大，你失去的东西就越多。
So I think texting is not decreasing the speech prowess or the intellectual prowess of speech.
所以我认为发短信并不会降低演讲能力或演讲的智力能力。
It's converting it and using it a lot in a different way.
它正在以不同的方式转换和使用它。
In a way that may not be as rich in regular writing because you can only communicate so much nuance in short-term writing.
在某种程度上，常规写作可能没有那么丰富，因为你只能在短期写作中传达如此多的细微差别。
But whatever is being done, you got people texting hours and hours and hours on the phone.
但无论采取什么措施，人们都会不断地发短信、打电话。
So your thumb circuit is going to get pretty big, actually.
所以你的拇指电路实际上会变得相当大。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I do wonder whether...
我确实想知道是否...
Many people have lost their jobs based on tweets.
许多人因为推文而失业。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The short latency between thought and action and distribution of one's thoughts is incredible.
思想与行动之间的短暂延迟以及思想的分布是令人难以置信的。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I'm not just talking about people who apparently would have poor prefrontal top-down control.
我所说的不仅仅是那些明显前额叶自上而下控制能力较差的人。
This is geek speak, by the way, for people that lack impulse control.
顺便说一句，这是极客的说法，针对那些缺乏冲动控制的人。
But high-level academics, I'm not going to point fingers at anyone, but examples of where you see these tweets and you go, "What were they thinking?"
但是高水平的学者，我不会指责任何人，而是举例说明你在哪里看到这些推文，然后你会问：“他们在想什么？”
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So presumably there's an optimal strategy between the thought, speech, motor pathway.
所以想必在思想、言语、运动路径之间存在一个最佳策略。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Especially when the motor pathway engages communication with hundreds of thousands of people, and retweets in particular, and the cut and paste function and the screenshot function are often the reason why speech propagates.
尤其是当运动通路与数十万人进行交流，尤其是转发时，剪切粘贴功能和屏幕截图功能往往是语音传播的原因。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So to me, it's a little eerie just that the neural circuitry can do this and that we are catching up a little bit more slowly to the technology, and you've got these casualties of that mismatch.
所以对我来说，神经回路可以做到这一点，而且我们追赶这项技术的速度有点慢，而且你已经因为这种不匹配而遭受了这些伤亡，这有点奇怪。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
I think that's a good adjective to use, the casualties of what's going on.
我认为这是一个很好的形容词，正在发生的事情造成的伤亡。
Because, yes, it is the case with texting, what you're really losing there is less so the ability to write, but more the ability to interpret what is being written, and you can under-interpret something that somebody means.
因为，是的，发短信就是这种情况，你真正失去的不是写作的能力，而是解释所写内容的能力，而且你可能会低估某人的意思。
On the flip side of that, if somebody's writing something very quick, they could be writing more instinctually their true meaning.
另一方面，如果有人写得很快，他们可能会更本能地写出真正的含义。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
And they don't have time to modify and color code what they're trying to say, and that's what they really feel, as opposed to, say, in a more nuanced way.
他们没有时间修改和着色他们想要表达的内容，而这就是他们真正的感受，而不是以更微妙的方式。
So I think both sides of that casualty are present.
所以我认为双方都存在伤亡。
And that's a downturn, an unintended negative consequence of short word communication.
这就是一种低迷，是短词交流的意外负面后果。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, I agree that this whole phenomenon could be netting people that normally would only say these things out loud once inside the door of their own home.
是的，我同意这整个现象可能会吸引那些通常只会在自己家门口大声说出这些话的人。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or not at all.
或者根本没有。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's an interesting time that we're in.
我们正处于一个有趣的时刻。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Vis-à-vis speech and language and motor patterns.
针对言语、语言和运动模式。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
It's a part of the human evolution for language.
这是人类语言进化的一部分。
I think this is all part of our evolution.
我认为这都是我们进化的一部分。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's right.
没错。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So for those of you thinking terrible thoughts, please put them in the world and be a casualty.
因此，对于那些有可怕想法的人，请将它们放入世界中并成为受害者。
And for those of you that are not, please be very careful with how proficient your thought to language to motor action goes.
对于那些不熟悉的人，请非常小心你的思想、语言和动作的熟练程度。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Maybe the technology companies should install some buffers, some AI-based buffers.
也许科技公司应该安装一些缓冲区，一些基于人工智能的缓冲区。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Right, that's taking some EG signals from your brain while you're texting to say, "Okay, this is not a great thought.
是的，当你发短信说：“好吧，这不是一个好主意时，就会从你的大脑中获取一些 EG 信号。
Slow down."
慢点。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Or, "This doesn't reflect your best state."
或者，“这并不能反映你的最佳状态。”
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That brings me to what was going to be the next question anyway, which is, we are quickly moving toward a time where there will be an even faster transition from thought to speech to motor output, and maybe won't require motor output.
这让我想到了下一个问题，那就是，我们正在迅速迈向一个时代，从思想到言语再到运动输出的转变将会更快，而且可能不需要运动输出。
What I'm referring to here is some of the incredible work of our colleagues, Eddie Chang at UCSF and others who are taking paralyzed human beings and learning to translate the electrical signals of neurons in various areas, including speech and language areas, to computer screens that type out what these people are thinking.
我在这里指的是我们的同事、加州大学旧金山分校的埃迪·张和其他人所做的一些令人难以置信的工作，他们正在研究瘫痪的人，并学习将各个区域（包括言语和语言区域）神经元的电信号翻译到计算机屏幕上，从而输入这些人的想法。
In other words, paralyzed people can put their thoughts into writing.
换句话说，瘫痪的人可以把自己的想法写下来。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's a pretty extreme and wonderful example of recovery of function-
这是功能恢复的一个非常极端和精彩的例子-
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that is sure to continue to evolve.
这肯定会继续发展。
But I think we are headed toward a time not too long from now where my thoughts can be translated into words on a page if I allow that to happen.
但我认为，在不久的将来，如果我允许这种情况发生，我的想法就可以转化为纸上的文字。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Yeah, and Eddie Chang's work, which I admire quite a bit and cite in my papers, I think he's really one of those at the leading edge of trying to understand within humans the neurobiology of speech.
是的，我非常欣赏艾迪·张（Eddie Chang）的工作，并在我的论文中引用了他的工作，我认为他确实是试图理解人类言语神经生物学的前沿人士之一。
And he may not say it directly, but I talked to him about this, it supports this idea that the speech circuit and the separate language module, I don't really think that there's a separation there.
他可能不会直接说出来，但我和他谈过这一点，它支持了这个想法，即语音电路和单独的语言模块，我真的不认为那里有分离。
So with that knowledge, yes, in putting electrodes in the human brain and then translating those electrical signals to speech currents, yeah, we can start to tell what is that person thinking.
因此，有了这些知识，是的，将电极放入人脑中，然后将这些电信号转换为语音电流，是的，我们可以开始判断那个人在想什么。
Why?
为什么？
Because we often think in terms of speech, and without saying words, and that's a scary thought.
因为我们经常用言语来思考，而不是用言语来思考，这是一个可怕的想法。
And now imagine if you can now translate those into a signal that transmits something wirelessly, and someone from some distant part of the planet is hearing your speech from a wireless signal without you speaking.
现在想象一下，如果您现在可以将这些转换为无线传输的信号，那么来自地球某个遥远地方的人就可以在您不说话的情况下通过无线信号听到您的讲话。
So probably that won't be done in an ethical way.
所以这可能不会以道德的方式进行。
Who knows?
谁知道？
But the ethics of doing that probably might not happen, but who knows?
但这样做的道德可能不会发生，但谁知道呢？
We have these songbirds.
我们有这些鸣禽。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
If we apply the same technique to them, we can start to hear what they're singing in their dreams or whatever, even though they don't produce sound.
如果我们对他们应用同样的技术，我们就可以开始听到他们在梦中或其他什么地方唱的歌，即使他们不发出声音。
So we can find out by testing on them.
所以我们可以通过对它们进行测试来找出答案。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's coming.
它来了。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
One way or another, it's coming.
无论如何，它即将到来。
For those listening who are interested in getting better at speaking and understanding languages, are there any tools that you recommend?
对于那些有兴趣提高口语和理解语言能力的听众，您有推荐的工具吗？
And here again, I realize you're not a speech therapist, but here I'm not thinking about ameliorating any kind of speech deficiency, I'm thinking- For instance, do you recommend that people read different types of writing?
在这里，我再次意识到你不是言语治疗师，但在这里我并不是在考虑改善任何类型的言语缺陷，我在想 - 例如，你是否建议人们阅读不同类型的写作？
Would you recommend that people learn how to dance in order to become better at expressing themselves verbally?
您是否会建议人们学习跳舞以更好地口头表达自己？
And feel free to have some degrees of freedom-
并且随意拥有一定程度的自由-
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in this answer.
在这个答案中。
These are obviously not peer-reviewed studies that we're referring to, although they may be.
这些显然不是我们所指的同行评审研究，尽管它们可能是。
But I'm struck by the number of things that you do exceedingly well, and I can't help but ask, well, the singing, which I realize your brother didn't pay me to say this, may not be quite as good as your brother's yet.
但我对你做得非常出色的事情感到震惊，我忍不住问，好吧，唱歌，我意识到你哥哥没有付钱让我这么说，可能还没有你哥哥的那么好。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But you'll surpass him, I'm guessing at some point.
但我猜你会在某个时候超越他的。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Getting there.
到达那里。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Nice.
不错。
Exactly.
确切地。
There you go.
就这样吧。
Should kids learn how to dance and read hard books and simple books?
孩子们应该学习如何跳舞、阅读硬性书籍和简单的书籍吗？
What do you recommend?
你有什么建议吗？
Should adults learn how to do that too?
成年人也应该学习如何做到这一点吗？
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Everyone wants to know how to keep their brain working better, so to speak, but also I think people want to be able to speak well, and people want to be able to understand well.
可以这么说，每个人都想知道如何让自己的大脑更好地运转，但我认为人们也希望能够说得好，人们希望能够很好地理解。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So what I've discovered personally is that when I switched from pursuing a career in science from a career in dance, I thought one day I would stop dancing.
所以我个人发现，当我从舞蹈事业转向科学事业时，我想有一天我会停止跳舞。
But I haven't, because I find it fulfilling for me, just as a life experience.
但我没有，因为我发现它对我来说很充实，就像一种人生经历。
So ever since I started college, my late teens and early 20s, I kept dancing even till this day.
所以自从我上大学，十几岁二十出头的时候，我就一直跳舞，直到今天。
And there've been periods of time, like during the pandemic, where I slowed down on dancing and so forth.
有一段时间，比如在大流行期间，我放慢了跳舞的速度等等。
And when you do that, you realize, okay, there are parts of your body where your muscle tone decreases a little bit, or you could start to gain weight.
当你这样做时，你会意识到，好吧，你身体的某些部位的肌肉张力会稍微下降，或者你可能会开始增加体重。
I somehow don't gain weight that easily, and I think it's related to my dance, if that's meaningful to your audience.
不知怎的，我的体重不容易增加，我认为这与我的舞蹈有关，如果这对你的观众有意义的话。
But what I found is, in science, we like to think of a separation between movement and action and cognition.
但我发现，在科学中，我们喜欢将运动、行动和认知分开。
And there is a separation between perception and production.
感知和生产之间存在分离。
Cognition being perception, production being movement.
认知是感知，生产是运动。
Right?
正确的？
But if the speech pathways is next to the movement pathways, what I discover is by dancing, it is helping me think.
但如果言语通路与运动通路相邻，我发现通过跳舞，它可以帮助我思考。
It is helping keeping my brain fresh.
它有助于让我的大脑保持新鲜。
It's not just moving my muscles.
这不仅仅是移动我的肌肉。
I'm moving or using the circuitry in my brain to control a whole big body.
我正在移动或使用大脑中的电路来控制整个大身体。
You need a lot of brain tissue to do that.
你需要大量的脑组织才能做到这一点。
And so I argue, if you want to stay cognitively intact into your old age, you better be moving, and you better be doing it consistently, whether it's dancing, walking, running, and also practicing speech.
所以我认为，如果你想在老年时保持认知完整，你最好多运动，而且最好坚持不懈地运动，无论是跳舞、散步、跑步还是练习演讲。
Oratory speech and so forth, or singing, is controlling the brain circuits that are moving your facial musculature, and it's going to keep your cognitive circuits also in tune.
演讲等，或者唱歌，正在控制移动你的面部肌肉组织的大脑回路，它也会让你的认知回路保持协调。
And I'm convinced of that from my own personal experience.
我从自己的个人经历中确信这一点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
For me, long, slow runs are a wonderful way to kind of loosen the joints for long podcasts.
对我来说，长距离、慢速的跑步是一种放松长播客关节的好方法。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Especially the solo podcasts, which can take many hours to record.
尤其是独奏播客，可能需要花费很多小时来录制。
And, without those long, slow runs, at least the day before or even the morning of, I don't think I could do it.
而且，如果没有那些长距离、缓慢的跑步，至少在前一天甚至早上，我认为我无法做到这一点。
At least not as well.
至少不那么好。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
All right.
好吧。
Well, you're experiencing something similar.
嗯，你正在经历类似的事情。
So that's an N of two.
所以这是两个的 N。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
N of two.
两个中的 N 个。
I'm tempted to learn how to dance because there are a lot of reasons to learn how to dance.
我很想学习如何跳舞，因为有很多学习如何跳舞的理由。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
People can use their imagination.
人们可以发挥自己的想象力。
I definitely want to get the opportunity to talk about some of the newer work that you're into right now-
我绝对希望有机会谈论您现在正在进行的一些新工作 -
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
about genomes of animals.
关于动物基因组。
As you perhaps can tell from my quite authentic facial expressions, I adore the animal kingdom.
你也许可以从我非常真实的面部表情中看出，我喜欢动物王国。
I just find it amazing, and it's the reason I went into neurobiology, in part.
我觉得这太神奇了，这也是我进入神经生物学的部分原因。
So many animals, so many different patterns of movement, so many body plans, so many specializations.
如此多的动物，如此多不同的运动模式，如此多的身体计划，如此多的专业化。
What is the value of learning the genomes of all these animals?
了解所有这些动物的基因组有什么价值？
I can think of conservation-based schemes of trying to preserve these precious critters.
我可以想到以保护为基础的计划来尝试保护这些珍贵的生物。
But what are you doing with the genomes of these animals?
但你正在用这些动物的基因组做什么呢？
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What do you want to understand about their brain circuits, and how does this relate to some of the discussion we have been having up until now?
你想了解他们的大脑回路的哪些方面？这与我们迄今为止所进行的一些讨论有何关系？
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
I've gotten very heavily involved in genomes, not just to get at an individual gene involved in the trait of interest like spoken language.
我对基因组的研究非常深入，不仅仅是为了获取与口语等感兴趣的特征相关的单个基因。
But I realized that nature has done natural experiments for us.
但我意识到大自然为我们做了自然实验。
With all these species out there with these various traits, and the one that I'm studying, like vocal learning, has evolved multiple times among the animal kingdom.
所有这些物种都具有不同的特征，而我正在研究的特征，比如声音学习，在动物王国中已经进化了多次。
Even if it's rare, it's multiple times.
即使很少见，但也有很多次。
And similar genetic changes occurred in those species.
这些物种也发生了类似的基因变化。
But to find out what those genetic changes that are associated with the trait of interest and not some other trait, like flying in birds as opposed to singing, you have to do what's called comparative genomics, even in the context of studying the brain.
但要找出哪些基因变化与感兴趣的特征相关，而不是与其他特征相关，例如鸟类飞行而不是唱歌，你必须进行所谓的比较基因组学，即使是在研究大脑的背景下。
And you need their genomes to compare the genomes and do a GWAS, a genome-wide association study, not just within a species like humans, but across species.
你需要他们的基因组来比较基因组并进行 GWAS，即全基因组关联研究，不仅是在人类等物种内，而且是跨物种。
And so you need good genomes to do that.
所以你需要良好的基因组才能做到这一点。
Plus, I've discovered I'm also interested in evolution and origins.
另外，我发现我也对进化和起源感兴趣。
How did these species come about a similar trait in the last 300 million years or 60 million years, depending on who you're talking about?
在过去的 3 亿年或 6000 万年里，这些物种是如何产生相似的特征的，这取决于你说的是谁？
And you need a good phylogenetic tree to do that.
你需要一个良好的系统发育树来做到这一点。
And to get a good phylogenetic tree, you also need their genomes.
为了获得良好的系统发育树，您还需要他们的基因组。
And so, because of this, I got involved in large-scale consortiums to produce genomes Of many different species, including my vocal learners and their closest relatives that I'm fans of.
因此，正因为如此，我参与了大型联盟，以生产许多不同物种的基因组，包括我的声音学习者和我所喜爱的它们的近亲。
But I couldn't convince the funding agencies to give me the money to do that just for my own project.
但我无法说服资助机构为我自己的项目提供资金。
But when you get a whole bunch of people together who want to study various traits, heart disease, or loss and gain of flight and so forth, suddenly we all need lots of genomes to do this.
但是，当你把一大群人聚集在一起，想要研究各种性状、心脏病、或飞行能力的丧失和获得等时，突然间我们都需要大量的基因组来做到这一点。
And so now that got me into a project to lead something called the Vertebrate Genomes Project to eventually sequence all 70,000 species on the planet.
因此，现在我参与了一个名为“脊椎动物基因组计划”的项目，最终对地球上所有 70,000 个物种进行测序。
And Earth Biogenome Project, all eukaryotic species, all two million of them.
还有地球生物基因组计划，所有真核物种，总共两百万个。
And to no longer be in a situation where I wish I had this genome, now we have the genetic code of all life on the planet, create a database of all their traits, and find the genetic association with everything out there that makes a difference from one species to another.
为了不再处于我希望拥有这个基因组的境地，现在我们拥有了地球上所有生命的遗传密码，创建了它们所有特征的数据库，并找到了与一个物种与另一个物种之间存在差异的所有事物的遗传关联。
One more piece of the equation to add to this story is what I didn't realize as a neuroscientist were that these genomes are not only incomplete, but they have lots of errors in them.
作为一名神经科学家，我没有意识到这些基因组不仅不完整，而且还存在很多错误。
False gene duplications where mother and father chromosomes were so different from each other that the genome algorithm, assembly algorithms, treated them as two different genes in this part of the chromosome.
错误的基因重复，其中母亲和父亲染色体彼此如此不同，以至于基因组算法、组装算法将它们视为染色体这一部分中的两个不同基因。
So there are a lot of these false duplicated genes that people thought were real, but were not, or missing parts of the genome because the enzymes used to sequence the DNA couldn't get through this regulatory region that folded up on itself, and made it hard to sequence.
因此，有很多人们认为是真实的虚假重复基因，但实际上并非如此，或者基因组中缺失了部分基因，因为用于测序 DNA 的酶无法通过这个自我折叠的调节区域，导致测序变得困难。
And so I end up in these consortiums, pulling in the genome sequencing companies, developing the technology to work with us to improve it further, and the computer science guys who then take that data and that technology and try to make the complete genomes and make the algorithms better to produce what we now just did recently, led by an effort by Adam Phillippy, is the first human telomere to telomere genome with no errors, all complete, no missing sequence.
所以我最终加入了这些联盟，吸引了基因组测序公司，开发技术与我们合作进一步改进它，然后计算机科学人员利用这些数据和技术，尝试制作完整的基因组，并使算法更好，以产生我们最近所做的事情，在 Adam Phillippy 的努力下，是第一个没有错误、完整、没有缺失序列的人类端粒到端粒基因组。
And now we're trying to do the same thing with vertebrates, and other species.
现在我们正尝试对脊椎动物和其他物种做同样的事情。
Actually, we improved that even before we got to what we call telomere to telomere, from one end of the chromosome to another.
事实上，我们甚至在实现所谓的端粒到端粒、从染色体的一端到另一端之前就已经改进了这一点。
And what we're discovering is in this dark matter of the genome that was missing before, turns out to be some regulatory regions that are specialized in vocal learning species, and we think are involved in developing speech circuits.
我们发现，在之前缺失的基因组暗物质中，原来是一些专门负责声音学习物种的调节区域，我们认为它们参与了语音回路的发育。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Incredible.
难以置信。
Well, so much to learn, and that we're going to learn from this information.
嗯，有很多东西需要学习，我们将从这些信息中学习。
Early on in these genome projects and connectome projects, I confess I was a little bit cynical.
在这些基因组项目和连接组项目的早期，我承认我有点愤世嫉俗。
This would be about 10, 15 years ago.
这大概是10、15年前的事了。
I thought, "Okay, necessary, but not sufficient for anything."
我想：“好吧，有必要，但还不够。”
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We need it, but it's not clear what's going to happen.
我们需要它，但尚不清楚会发生什么。
But you just gave a very clear example of what we stand to learn from this kind of information.
但你刚刚给出了一个非常清楚的例子，说明我们可以从此类信息中学到什么。
And I know from the conservation side, there's a huge interest in this because even though we would prefer to keep all these species alive rather than clone them, these sorts of projects do offer the possibility of potentially recreating species that were lost-
我知道，从保护方面来看，人们对此非常感兴趣，因为尽管我们更愿意让所有这些物种存活而不是克隆它们，但此类项目确实提供了重新创造消失物种的可能性——
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
due to our own ignorance or missteps or what have you.
由于我们自己的无知或失误或其他原因。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Yes.
是的。
And along those lines, because we got involved in genomics, some of the first species that we start working on are critically endangered species.
沿着这些思路，因为我们涉足基因组学，我们开始研究的一些物种是极度濒危物种。
And I'm doing that not only for perspectives to understand their brains and the genes involved in their brain function, but I feel like it's a moral duty.
我这样做不仅是为了了解他们的大脑和参与大脑功能的基因，而且我觉得这是一种道德义务。
So the fact that now I've become more involved in genome biology and have helped develop these tools for more complete genomes, let's capture their genetic code now before they're gone.
事实上，现在我更多地参与了基因组生物学，并帮助开发了这些工具以获得更完整的基因组，让我们在它们消失之前捕获它们的遗传密码。
And could we use that information to resurrect the species at some future time, if not in my lifetime, in some time in the future and generations ahead of us?
我们是否可以利用这些信息在未来的某个时间复活这个物种，如果不是在我有生之年，或者在未来的某个时间以及我们之前的几代人？
And so, in anticipation of that, we create a database we call the Genome Ark, and no pun intended, like Noah's Ark, meant to store the genetic code as complete genome assemblies as possible for all species on the planet, to be used for basic science, but also at some point in the future.
因此，为了预见到这一点，我们创建了一个数据库，我们称之为基因组方舟，没有双关语，就像诺亚方舟一样，旨在将地球上所有物种的遗传密码存储为尽可能完整的基因组组合，用于基础科学，但也可在未来的某个时候使用。
And because of that, funding agencies or private foundations that are interested in conservation have been reaching out to me now, a neuroscientist, to help them out in producing high-quality genome data of endangered species that they can use, like Revive and Restore, who want to resurrect the passenger pigeon, or Colossal, who wants to resurrect the wooly mammoth.
正因为如此，对保护感兴趣的资助机构或私人基金会现在一直在联系我这个神经科学家，帮助他们生成可供他们使用的濒危物种的高质量基因组数据，比如Revive and Restore，他们想要复活旅鸽，或者Colossal，想要复活长毛猛犸象。
And so we're producing high-quality genomes for these groups for their conservation projects.
因此，我们正在为这些群体的保护项目生产高质量的基因组。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What a terrific and important initiative.
这是多么了不起且重要的举措啊。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I think for those listening today, they now certainly understand the value of deeply understanding the brain structures and genomes of different species.
我认为对于今天的听众来说，他们现在肯定明白深入了解不同物种的大脑结构和基因组的价值。
Because I confess, even though I knew a bit of the songbird literature, and I certainly understand that humans have speech and language, I had no idea that there was so much convergence of function, structure, and genomes.
因为我承认，尽管我了解一些鸣禽文学，并且我当然了解人类有言语和语言，但我不知道功能、结构和基因组有如此多的趋同。
And to me, I feel a lot more like an ape than I do a songbird.
对我来说，我感觉自己更像一只猿，而不是一只鸣禽。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And yet here we are with the understanding that there's a lot more similarity between songbirds and humans than I certainly ever thought before.
然而，我们现在了解到，鸣禽和人类之间的相似性比我以前想象的要多得多。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Something very close to home for us humans, I can give you an example of, is evolution of skin color.
我可以给你举个例子，对于我们人类来说，肤色的演变是非常贴近的事情。
In skin color, we use it unfortunately for racism and so forth.
不幸的是，在肤色方面，我们将其用于种族主义等。
We use it also for good things, to let in more light or let out less light, depending on the part of the planet our population evolved in.
我们也用它来做好事，让更多的光进入或更少的光，这取决于我们的人口在地球上进化的部分。
And most people think dark-skinned people all evolved from the same dark-skinned person, and light-skinned people all evolved from the same light-skinned person, but that's not the case.
大多数人认为深色皮肤的人都是从同一个深色皮肤的人进化而来的，而浅色皮肤的人都是从同一个浅色皮肤的人进化而来的，但事实并非如此。
Dark skin and light skin amongst humans has evolved independently multiple times, like in the Pacific Islands versus Africa.
人类的深色皮肤和浅色皮肤已经独立进化了多次，就像太平洋岛屿与非洲一样。
And it's just depending on the angle of light hitting the Earth as to whether you need more protection from the sun or less protection, that's also associated with vitamin D synthesis in the skin.
您是否需要更多或更少的防晒保护，取决于光线照射到地球的角度，这也与皮肤中维生素 D 的合成有关。
And each time where darker or lighter skin evolved independently, it hit the same gene, the melanin-
每次深色或浅色皮肤独立进化时，都会撞击同一个基因，即黑色素。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Melanin
黑色素
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
...
...
melanin receptors.
黑色素受体。
That's right.
这是正确的。
Yes.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Genes that are involved in melanin formation.
参与黑色素形成的基因。
And so those genes evolve some of the same mutations, even in different species.
因此，即使在不同的物种中，这些基因也会进化出一些相同的突变。
It's not just humans.
不仅仅是人类。
In equatorial regions, there are darker-skinned animals than going away from the equator.
在赤道地区，有比远离赤道地区肤色更深的动物。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, right.
哦，对了。
I think of Arctic foxes and things of that sort.
我想到了北极狐之类的东西。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
That's right.
没错。
Polar bears.
北极熊。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
And so some of the same genes are used in an evolutionary perspective to evolve in a similar way within and across species.
因此，从进化的角度来看，一些相同的基因在物种内和物种间以相似的方式进化。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Incredible.
难以置信。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
And that's the same thing happening in the brain, too.
大脑中也发生同样的事情。
Language is no exception.
语言也不例外。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, I have to say, as somebody who is a career neuroscientist, but as I mentioned several times, who also adores the animal kingdom, but is also obsessed with speech and language, and at a distance, not as a practitioner of music and dance, this has been an incredible conversation and opportunity for me to learn.
好吧，我不得不说，作为一名职业神经科学家，但正如我多次提到的，他也热爱动物王国，但也痴迷于言语和语言，而且在远处，而不是作为音乐和舞蹈的从业者，这对我来说是一次令人难以置信的对话和学习机会。
I know I speak for a tremendous number of people when I just really want to say thank you for joining us today.
我知道我代表了很多人，我真的很想说谢谢你们今天加入我们。
You are incredibly busy.
你非常忙。
It's clear from your description of your science and your knowledge base that you are involved in a huge number of things.
从您对您的科学和知识库的描述中可以清楚地看出您参与了大量的事情。
Very busy, so thank you for taking the time to speak to all of us.
非常忙碌，所以感谢您抽出时间与我们所有人交谈。
Thank you for the work that you're doing, both on speech and language, but also this important work on genomes and conservation of endangered species and far more.
感谢您在语音和语言方面所做的工作，也感谢您在基因组和濒危物种保护等方面所做的重要工作。
And I have to say, if you would agree to come back and speak to us again sometime, I'm certain that if we were to sit down even six months or a year from now, there's going to be a lot more to come.
我不得不说，如果您同意有一天再次回来与我们交谈，我确信如果我们从现在起六个月或一年后坐下来，将会有更多的事情发生。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Yeah, we have some things cooking.
是的，我们正在煮一些东西。
And thank you for inviting me here to get the word out to the community of what's going on in the science world.
感谢您邀请我来到这里，向社区宣传科学界正在发生的事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, we're honored and very grateful to you, Erich.
嗯，我们很荣幸也非常感谢你，埃里希。
Thank you.
谢谢。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
You're welcome.
不客气。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thank you for joining me today for my discussion with Dr. Erich Jarvis.
感谢您今天加入我与埃里希·贾维斯博士的讨论。
If you'd like to learn more about his laboratory's work, you can go to Jarvis Lab, spelled J-A-R-V-I-S Lab, all one word, jarvislab.net.
如果您想了解有关他实验室工作的更多信息，您可以访问 Jarvis Lab，拼写为 J-A-R-V-I-S Lab，全是一个词，jarvislab.net。
And there you can learn about all the various studies taking place in his laboratory, as well as some of the larger overarching themes that are driving those studies, including studies on human genomics and animal genomics that surely are going to lead to the next stage discoveries of how we learn and think about and indeed use language.
在那里，您可以了解他的实验室中进行的所有各种研究，以及推动这些研究的一些更大的总体主题，包括对人类基因组学和动物基因组学的研究，这些研究肯定会导致我们如何学习、思考和使用语言的下一阶段发现。
If you're learning from and/or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel.
如果您正在学习和/或喜欢此播客，请订阅我们的 YouTube 频道。
That's a simple zero-cost way to support us.
这是支持我们的一种简单的零成本方式。
Please also subscribe to the podcast on Spotify and Apple.
另请订阅 Spotify 和 Apple 上的播客。
And on both Spotify and Apple, you have the opportunity to leave us up to a five-star review.
在 Spotify 和 Apple 上，您都有机会给我们留下五星级的评价。
If you have questions or comments or suggestions about topics you'd like us to cover or guests you'd like us to interview on the Huberman Lab Podcast, please put those in the comments section on YouTube.
如果您对希望我们在 Huberman 实验室播客上报道的主题或采访嘉宾有疑问、意见或建议，请将这些问题放入 YouTube 的评论部分。
We do read all those comments, and we do take them to heart.
我们确实阅读了所有这些评论，并且确实将它们牢记在心。
Please also check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning of today's podcast, and check out Momentous Supplements, our new partners in the supplement space, and check out Athletic Greens.
另请查看今天播客开头提到的赞助商，查看我们在补充剂领域的新合作伙伴 Momentous Supplements，以及 Athletic Greens。
That's the best way to support this podcast.
这是支持这个播客的最佳方式。
If you're not already following us on social media, please do so.
如果您还没有在社交媒体上关注我们，请这样做。
We are hubermanlab on Twitter, and we are also hubermanlab on Instagram, and both places I cover science and science-related tools, some of which overlap with the content of the Huberman Lab podcast, but much of which is unique from the content covered on the Huberman Lab podcast.
我们在 Twitter 上是 hubermanlab，在 Instagram 上也是 hubermanlab，我在这两个地方都介绍了科学和科学相关工具，其中一些内容与 Huberman Lab 播客的内容重叠，但其中很多内容与 Huberman Lab 播客所涵盖的内容是独特的。
Again, that's hubermanlab on Instagram and hubermanlab on Twitter.
同样，这是 Instagram 上的 hubermanlab 和 Twitter 上的 hubermanlab。
Please also check out our Neural Network monthly newsletter.
另请查看我们的神经网络每月通讯。
This is a newsletter that has summaries of podcast episodes.
这是一份包含播客剧集摘要的时事通讯。
It also includes a lot of actionable protocols.
它还包括许多可操作的协议。
It's very easy to sign up for the newsletter.
订阅时事通讯非常容易。
You go to hubermanlab.com, click on the menu, go to Newsletter.
您访问 hubermanlab.com，单击菜单，转到新闻通讯。
You supply your email, but we do not share your email with anybody.
您提供您的电子邮件，但我们不会与任何人分享您的电子邮件。
We have a very clear and rigorous privacy policy, which is we do not share your email with anybody.
我们有非常明确和严格的隐私政策，即我们不会与任何人分享您的电子邮件。
And the newsletter comes out once a month, and it is completely zero cost.
而且简讯每月出一期，而且完全是零成本。
Again, just go to hubermanlab.com and go to the Neural Network newsletter.
同样，只需访问 hubermanlab.com 并访问神经网络新闻通讯。
I'd also like to point out that the Huberman Lab podcast has a Clips channel.
我还想指出 Huberman Lab 播客有一个 Clips 频道。
So these are brief clips, anywhere from three to 10 minutes, that encompass single concepts and actionable protocols related to sleep, to focus, interviews with various guests.
因此，这些都是简短的剪辑，从三到十分钟不等，包含与睡眠相关的单一概念和可操作的协议，重点是对不同嘉宾的采访。
We talk about things like caffeine, when to drink caffeine relative to sleep, alcohol, when and how and if anyone should ingest it relative to sleep, dopamine, serotonin, mental health, physical health, and on and on.
我们谈论咖啡因、与睡眠相关的何时喝咖啡因、酒精、与睡眠相关的何时、如何以及是否应该摄入咖啡因、多巴胺、血清素、心理健康、身体健康等等。
All the things that relate to the topics most of interest to you.
与您最感兴趣的主题相关的所有内容。
You can find that easily by going to YouTube, look for Huberman Lab Clips in the search area, and it will take you there.
您可以通过访问 YouTube 轻松找到该内容，在搜索区域中查找 Huberman Lab Clips，它会带您到那里。
Subscribe, and we are constantly updating those with new clips.
订阅，我们会不断更新新剪辑。
This is especially useful, I believe, for people that have missed some of the earlier episodes, or you're still working through the back catalog of Huberman Lab podcast, which admittedly can be rather long.
我相信，对于那些错过了一些早期剧集的人，或者您仍在浏览 Huberman Lab 播客的后台目录的人来说，这特别有用，诚然，该目录可能相当长。
And last but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.
最后但并非最不重要的一点是，感谢您对科学的兴趣。