Dr. Ellen Langer: Using Your Mind to Control Your Physical Health & Longevity
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.
欢迎来到休伯曼实验室播客，我们在这里讨论科学和基于科学的日常生活工具。
I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.
我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。
My guest today is Dr. Ellen Langer.
今天我的客人是艾伦·兰格博士。
Dr. Ellen Langer is a professor of psychology at Harvard University and one of the world's leading pioneers in the mind-body connection.
艾伦·兰格博士是哈佛大学心理学教授，也是身心联系领域的世界领先先驱之一。
More specifically, how our thoughts impact our health.
更具体地说，我们的想法如何影响我们的健康。
Dr. Ellen Langer was one of the first people to systematically explore the mind-body connection with scientific rigor.
艾伦·兰格博士是最早以科学严谨的方式系统探索身心联系的人之一。
Her laboratory has made a large number of truly fascinating findings.
她的实验室取得了大量真正令人着迷的发现。
For instance, today you'll learn about a study that Dr. Langer did in which she brought quite old people into her laboratory, or rather, she designed a laboratory such that people lived in this laboratory, but the laboratory itself was designed to resemble the environment, everything from the types of furniture, the types of dishes, the types of music, et cetera, that those people had lived in 20 years prior.
例如，今天你会了解到兰格博士所做的一项研究，她把年纪很大的人带进她的实验室，或者更确切地说，她设计了一个实验室，让人们住在这个实验室里，但实验室本身的设计与环境相似，从家具类型、菜肴类型、音乐类型等等，都是这些人20年前生活过的。
When those subjects lived in that laboratory for less than one week, the change in the environment and their interaction with that environment led them to have far more mobility, better cognitive function, and a large number of other markers of biological aging reversed, which is absolutely remarkable and speaks to the incredible power that the mind has over our biology.
当这些受试者在实验室里生活不到一周时，环境的变化以及他们与环境的相互作用使他们拥有更大的活动能力、更好的认知功能，并且大量其他生物衰老标志物被逆转，这绝对是非凡的，并且说明了思想对我们的生物学具有令人难以置信的力量。
That's just one example of the sorts of experiments that Dr. Langer has done, again, with a tremendous amount of scientific rigor.
这只是兰格博士再次以极高的科学严谨性所做的各种实验的一个例子。
So today, Dr. Langer and I talk about how the acquisition of knowledge, just simply learning about certain biological mechanisms, as well as your mindset about various aspects of your health and wellbeing, can powerfully dictate your health and wellbeing.
所以今天，兰格博士和我讨论了知识的获取，仅仅了解某些生物机制，以及你对健康和福祉各个方面的心态，如何能够有力地决定你的健康和福祉。
We talk about longevity, we talk about exercise and weight loss.
我们谈论长寿，我们谈论锻炼和减肥。
We talk about infectious disease.
我们谈论传染病。
In fact, we also talk about how mindset can impact cancer outcomes, or rather, overcoming cancer.
事实上，我们还讨论了心态如何影响癌症结果，或者更确切地说，如何影响癌症的克服。
We discuss examples, mechanisms, and practical application of those mechanisms.
我们讨论示例、机制以及这些机制的实际应用。
By the end of today's episode, I assure you that Dr. Ellen Langer will change the way that you think about the mind-body connection, the way you think about your health, and I assure you it's not all just about positive thinking.
在今天的节目结束时，我向您保证，艾伦·兰格博士将改变您对身心联系、健康的看法，而且我向您保证，这不仅仅是积极思考。
In fact, Dr. Ellen Langer gets us to think differently about scientific questions, our health, and just about everything else in the world.
事实上，艾伦·兰格博士让我们以不同的方式思考科学问题、我们的健康以及世界上的其他一切。
You'll soon see she has a quite unique way of thinking, not just about science and health, but also about life in general and what makes for a truly good life.
你很快就会发现她有一种非常独特的思维方式，不仅涉及科学和健康，还涉及一般生活以及如何创造真正美好的生活。
Dr. Ellen Langer is a true luminary and pioneer in this area of mind-body health, and she's a fabulous teacher as well.
艾伦·兰格博士是身心健康领域真正的杰出人物和先驱，她也是一位出色的老师。
Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.
在开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。
It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public.
然而，我的愿望和努力的一部分是向公众提供有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本消费者信息。
In keeping with that theme, this episode does include sponsors.
为了与这个主题保持一致，这一集确实有赞助商。
And now for my discussion with Dr. Ellen Langer.
现在我与艾伦·兰格博士进行讨论。
Dr. Ellen Langer, welcome.
艾伦·兰格博士，欢迎光临。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Thank you, Andrew.
谢谢你，安德鲁。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So great to have you here.
很高兴你能来到这里。
There's so many topics that you've worked on and shed light on that impact our daily lives and our internal world and our external world and how they interact.
您研究并阐明了许多主题，这些主题影响着我们的日常生活、我们的内部世界和外部世界以及它们如何相互作用。
I want to know your definition of mindfulness, and it could take on practical forms, theoretical forms.
我想知道你对正念的定义，它可以采取实践形式、理论形式。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
No, I'll make it very simple.
不，我会让事情变得非常简单。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
That when most people hear the word mindful, sadly, they think of meditation.
可悲的是，当大多数人听到“正念”这个词时，他们会想到冥想。
Meditation is great, but it's not mindful.
冥想很棒，但它不是正念。
You meditate in order to result in post-meditative mindfulness, okay?
你冥想是为了获得冥想后的正念，好吗？
So it's a practice.
所以这是一种练习。
Mindfulness, as I study it, is a way of being.
据我研究，正念是一种存在方式。
It's not a practice.
这不是一种练习。
It's the simple process of noticing.
这是一个简单的注意过程。
Now, you can get there in one of two ways.
现在，您可以通过两种方式之一到达那里。
Bottom left is actively notice three new things about the person you live with.
左下角是积极注意与您住在一起的人的三件新事情。
Walk outside, notice three new things.
走到外面，注意到三件新事物。
Each time you do this, you see that you didn't know the thing you thought you knew as well as you thought you knew it.
每次你这样做时，你都会发现你并不像你认为自己知道的那样了解你认为你知道的事情。
But you can also do it top-down.
但您也可以自上而下地进行。
Top-down is recognize that everything is always changing.
自上而下是认识到一切都在不断变化。
Everything looks different from different perspectives.
从不同的角度来看，一切看起来都不一样。
Uncertainty is the rule.
不确定性是规则。
It's not the exception.
这不是例外。
So when you know you don't know, then you naturally tune in.
因此，当您知道自己不知道时，您自然会调整。
So one of the things, I've said this so many times, maybe this will be the last.
所以有一件事，我已经说过很多次了，也许这将是最后一次。
One of the things we think we know best is how much is one plus one, Andrew?
我们认为我们最了解的事情之一是一加一是多少，安德鲁？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm going to assume it's still two.
我假设它仍然是两个。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Two.
二。
Not always.
并非总是如此。
If you add one wad of chewing gum to one wad of chewing gum, one plus one is one.
如果将一团口香糖加到一团口香糖中，一加一就是一。
You add one cloud to one cloud, one plus one is one.
一朵云加一朵云，一加一就是一。
This is interesting.
这很有趣。
Somebody sent this to me the other day.
前几天有人发给我这个。
If you take one pizza and you add one pizza, one plus one is two.
如果您拿一份披萨并添加一份披萨，则一加一等于二。
You take one lasagna, and you add one lasagna, one plus one is one.
你拿一份烤宽面条，然后添加一份烤宽面条，一加一就是一。
It's just a bigger lasagna, right?
这只是一个更大的烤宽面条，对吧？
You take one puddle and you add, let's say I have two puddles there, and you add some water in between.
你拿一个水坑，然后添加，假设我那里有两个水坑，你在中间添加一些水。
Now you have one plus one plus one is one.
现在你有一加一加一就是一。
Okay, so the point of it is that in the real world, one plus one probably doesn't equal two as more often as it does.
好吧，重点是，在现实世界中，一加一等于二的情况可能并不常见。
And since you're an educated individual, you might know that one plus one equals two if you're using the base 10 number system.
由于您是一个受过教育的人，如果您使用以 10 为基数的数字系统，您可能知道一加一等于二。
If you're using the base two number system, one plus one is written as 10.
如果您使用以二为基数的数字系统，则一加一写为 10。
Oh my goodness.
天哪。
Somebody asks you how much is one plus one, should you say one, two, 10?
有人问你一加一是多少，你应该说一、二、10吗？
And the point is that when you know you don't know, then you pay attention.
重点是，当你知道自己不知道时，你就会注意。
In this context, let me see.
在这种情况下，让我看看。
I'll be a smartass and I'll say one.
我会成为一个聪明人，我会说一个。
Or in this context, I know the person wants me to be obedient and I'll say two, so on and so forth.
或者在这种情况下，我知道这个人希望我服从，我会说两个，依此类推。
So when you don't know, you pay attention.
所以当你不知道的时候，你要注意。
When you pay attention, you have choices that otherwise you're blind to.
当你集中注意力时，你就会有一些选择，否则你会视而不见。
It makes a very big difference.
这有很大的不同。
So when you're mindful, you don't know.
所以当你有正念时，你不知道。
You actively notice.
你主动注意到。
As you're noticing, the neurons are firing, and 50 years of research has shown that it's literally and figuratively enlightening.
正如您所注意到的，神经元正在放电，50 年的研究表明，它确实具有启发性。
And if you're going to do something, show up for it.
如果你想做某事，就表现出来。
Now, the problem is that most people are mindless almost all the time, and they're totally oblivious to it.
现在的问题是，大多数人几乎一直都是无意识的，他们完全没有意识到这一点。
When you're not there, you're not there to know you're not there.
当你不在那里时，你不在那里也不知道你不在那里。
And most people are just not there.
而大多数人就是不在那里。
Now you want to ask me, how does that happen?
现在你想问我，这是怎么发生的？
Well, we're taught that.
嗯，我们是这么被教导的。
Schools, I think, are the biggest culprit.
我认为学校是最大的罪魁祸首。
Schools are teaching us absolute answers.
学校教给我们绝对的答案。
One plus one is two.
一加一等于二。
Virtually everything that we're taught is as if the world is constant and going to stay that way, and the answer today is going to be the same answer as tomorrow.
事实上，我们所学到的一切都好像世界是恒定的，并且将保持这种状态，今天的答案将与明天的答案相同。
And so that certainty leads us not to notice.
因此，这种确定性导致我们没有注意到。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
How did you come to realize this thing that we call mindfulness?
你是如何认识到我们称之为正念的东西的？
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I mean, certainly in the last 20 years, the notion of meditation as a valuable practice has become pretty-
我的意思是，当然在过去 20 年里，冥想作为一种有价值的练习的概念已经变得相当——
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Common
常见
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
common.
常见的。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And prior to that, it was considered a little bit-
而在此之前，它被认为是有点——
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Let me answer
让我来回答
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
alternative, hippy-dippy.
另类，嬉皮士。
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Let me answer.
让我来回答一下。
Okay, so it's very funny.
好吧，这很有趣。
I'm glad in some ways, I don't remember who this person was, but I started studying mindlessness, and I found myself, I'd walk into a mannequin, I'd apologize, all sorts of things like that, and I thought, "Well, this is kind of interesting to me." I'm speaking to somebody, we don't know who it was anymore, who said to me, "You are what you study." I said, "Okay." So then I switched it around from being mindless to being mindful.
在某些方面我很高兴，我不记得这个人是谁，但我开始研究无意识，我发现自己，我会走进一个人体模型，我会道歉，诸如此类的事情，我想，“嗯，这对我来说有点有趣。”我正在和某人说话，我们已经不知道是谁对我说：“你所研究的就是你。”我说：“好吧。”所以我把它从无意识转变为有意识。
At that point then I found out about meditation and Buddhism and all of this, and started to learn about another way of being.
那时我发现了冥想和佛教以及所有这些，并开始学习另一种存在方式。
What was exciting to me was that I had gotten through this Western scientific mode, so to speak, to many of the same consequences as the Buddhists had talked about for thousands of years.
让我兴奋的是，我已经通过了这种西方科学模式，可以说，得到了佛教徒几千年来所谈论的许多相同的结果。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's interesting how now in Western society, we embrace this idea of presence, but it gets merged with these kind of more rigid terms like focus and attention.
有趣的是，现在在西方社会，我们接受这种存在的想法，但它与诸如焦点和注意力等更严格的术语融合在一起。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah, no, focus is actually mindless.
是的，不，专注实际上是无意识的。
So it's interesting.
所以这很有趣。
Focus on your finger.
专注于你的手指。
Now, if you're concentrating and focusing, what you're going to notice is that your fingers, the image is moving around.
现在，如果您集中注意力，您会注意到您的手指，图像正在四处移动。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Right?
对吗？
And so when we try to hold something still, that's the wrong thing.
因此，当我们试图保持某物静止时，那就是错误的。
You shouldn't tell people to focus.
你不应该告诉人们要集中注意力。
Now, instead of focus, look at your finger mindfully.
现在，不要集中注意力，而是专心地看着你的手指。
That means you're going to notice new things.
这意味着你会注意到新事物。
"That's an ugly little finger," and "What is that line there?" And, "Why is this red?" And when you're doing that, when you're actively noticing, the image stays still.
“那是一个丑陋的小手指”和“那条线是什么？”还有，“为什么是红色的？”当你这样做时，当你积极注意时，图像会保持静止。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
So when we give people instructions in school, focus, they think as a camera, hold it still.
因此，当我们在学校给人们指示时，聚焦，他们认为就像相机一样，保持不动。
And whenever we're trying to hold ourselves, the image, anything still, we're going to be performing suboptimally.
每当我们试图保持自己、形象或任何事物静止时，我们的表现就会不佳。
We need to let things vary.
我们需要让事情发生变化。
Things are always changing.
事情总是在变化。
So what happens is we confuse the stability of our mindsets, we're holding something still in our heads, with the stability of the underlying phenomena.
因此，我们混淆了心态的稳定性（我们头脑中仍然保留着一些东西）和潜在现象的稳定性。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So mindfulness as a practice of presence and exploration is perhaps-
因此，正念作为一种存在和探索的实践也许是——
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Sure.
当然。
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
a slightly better, perhaps, way to think about it?
也许有一种更好的思考方式？
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah, but it's not a practice.
是的，但这不是一种练习。
You see, once you accept that everything is uncertain, then you just tune in.
你看，一旦你接受一切都是不确定的，那么你就可以调整。
You only don't tune in when you think you know.
只有当您认为自己知道时，您才不会收听。
So if you were going to come visit me in Cambridge, you've never been to my house, you don't have to practice anything.
所以如果你要去剑桥看我，你从来没有去过我家，你不需要练习任何东西。
You walk in, you'll notice things, just, "Did she do that painting?
你走进去，你会注意到一些事情，只是，“那幅画是她画的吗？
What is that?" "Oh, look what she's reading."
那是什么？” “哦，看看她在读什么。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There's two dogs here.
这里有两只狗。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
You'll notice-
你会注意到——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
...
...
without having to do any work.
无需做任何工作。
And that's the important thing because in the way I keep differentiating mindfulness as I study it with meditation, meditation is a practice.
这很重要，因为当我研究正念和冥想时，我不断区分正念，冥想是一种练习。
For some people to sit still 20 minutes twice a day is work.
对于一些人来说，每天两次静坐 20 分钟就是一种工作。
Mindfulness, as I study it, is what you do when you're having fun.
据我研究，正念就是你在享受乐趣时所做的事情。
You can't have fun unless you're actively noticing, right?
除非你主动注意，否则你就无法享受乐趣，对吧？
So in fact, this act of noticing is energy begetting, not consuming.
所以事实上，这种注意的行为是能量的产生，而不是消耗。
So it feels good.
所以感觉很好。
It's the essence of when you're doing, when you're having the most fun.
这是当你在做事、当你玩得最开心的时候的本质。
It's good for you, and it's so easy that I can't see any reason why anybody wouldn't embrace it.
这对你有好处，而且很容易，我看不出有什么理由不让人接受它。
That it's good for you.
这对你有好处。
When you're mindful, people find you more appealing, charismatic.
当你用心时，人们会发现你更具吸引力、更有魅力。
When you're mindful, the products you produce are enhanced, and it's healthier.
当您用心时，您生产的产品会得到增强，而且更加健康。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, BetterHelp.
我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商 BetterHelp。
BetterHelp offers professional therapy with a licensed therapist carried out entirely online.
BetterHelp 提供由持证治疗师完全在线进行的专业治疗。
Now, I personally have been doing therapy weekly for well over 30 years.
现在，我个人每周进行治疗已有 30 多年了。
Initially, I didn't have a choice.
最初，我别无选择。
It was a condition of being allowed to stay in school.
这是被允许留在学校的一个条件。
But pretty soon I realized that therapy is an extremely important component to one's overall health.
但很快我就意识到治疗对于一个人的整体健康来说是极其重要的组成部分。
In fact, I consider doing regular therapy just as important as getting regular exercise, which of course, I also do every week.
事实上，我认为定期治疗和定期锻炼一样重要，当然，我每周都会这样做。
There are essentially three things that great therapy provides.
伟大的治疗本质上可以提供三件事。
First of all, it provides a good rapport with somebody that you can trust and talk to about pretty much any issue with.
首先，它与您可以信任的人建立了良好的融洽关系，并且可以与您谈论几乎任何问题。
Second of all, it can provide support in the form of emotional support and directed guidance.
其次，它可以以情感支持和定向指导的形式提供支持。
And third, expert therapy can provide useful insights, insights that allow you to better not just your emotional life and your relationship life, but of course, also the relationship to yourself and your professional life, and to all sorts of goals.
第三，专家治疗可以提供有用的见解，这些见解不仅可以让您改善您的情感生活和人际关系生活，当然还可以改善您与自己和职业生活以及各种目标的关系。
BetterHelp makes it very easy to find an expert therapist with whom you resonate with and that can provide you those three benefits that come from effective therapy.
BetterHelp 让您可以轻松找到与您产生共鸣的专家治疗师，并且可以为您提供有效治疗带来的三大好处。
Also, because BetterHelp allows for therapy to be done entirely online, it's super time efficient and easy to fit into a busy schedule.
此外，由于 BetterHelp 允许完全在线进行治疗，因此它的时间效率非常高，并且很容易适应繁忙的日程。
If you'd like to try BetterHelp, you can go to betterhelp.com/huberman to get 10% off your first month.
如果您想尝试 BetterHelp，可以访问 betterhelp.com/huberman，第一个月可享受 10% 的折扣。
Again, that's betterhelp.com/huberman.
再说一次，这是 betterhelp.com/huberman。
Today's episode is also brought to us by Helix Sleep.
今天的节目也是由 Helix Sleep 为我们带来的。
Helix Sleep makes mattresses and pillows that are customized to your unique sleep needs.
Helix Sleep 生产根据您独特的睡眠需求定制的床垫和枕头。
Now, I've spoken many times before on the Huberman Lab podcast and elsewhere about the fact that getting a great night's sleep is the foundation of mental health, physical health, and performance.
我之前在 Huberman Lab 播客和其他地方多次谈到过这样一个事实：睡个好觉是心理健康、身体健康和表现的基础。
Now, the mattress you sleep on makes a huge difference in terms of the quality of sleep that you get each night.
现在，您所睡的床垫会对您每晚的睡眠质量产生巨大影响。
How soft it is, how firm it is, how breathable it is, the temperature all play into your comfort and needs to be tailored to your unique sleep needs.
它的柔软度、硬度、透气度、温度都会影响您的舒适度，并且需要根据您独特的睡眠需求进行定制。
If you go to the Helix website, you'll take a brief two-minute quiz, and it will ask you questions such as, do you tend to sleep on your back, your side, or your stomach?
如果您访问 Helix 网站，您将接受一个两分钟的简短测验，它会问您诸如此类的问题：您倾向于仰卧、侧卧还是俯卧？
It will also ask you, do you tend to run hot or cold during the night or the early part of the night, et cetera.
它还会询问您，您在夜间或半夜是否容易发热或感冒，等等。
Things of that sort.
诸如此类的事情。
Maybe you know the answers to those questions, maybe you don't, but either way, Helix will match you to the ideal mattress for you.
也许您知道这些问题的答案，也许您不知道，但无论哪种方式，Helix 都会为您匹配理想的床垫。
For me, that turned out to be the Dusk mattress, D-U-S-K.
对我来说，这就是 Dusk 床垫，D-U-S-K。
I started sleeping on the Dusk mattress about three and a half years ago, and it's been far and away the best sleep that I've ever had.
大约三年半前，我开始睡在 Dusk 床垫上，这无疑是我睡过的最好的睡眠。
It's absolutely clear to me that having a mattress that's right for you does improve one's sleep.
我非常清楚，拥有适合您的床垫确实可以改善睡眠。
If you'd like to try Helix, you can go to helixsleep.com/huberman, take that two-minute sleep quiz, and Helix will match you to a mattress that is customized for your unique sleep needs.
如果您想尝试 Helix，可以访问 helixsleep.com/huberman，参加两分钟的睡眠测验，Helix 将为您匹配专为您独特的睡眠需求定制的床垫。
Right now, Helix is giving up to 25% off all mattress orders.
目前，Helix 为所有床垫订单提供高达 25% 的折扣。
Again, that's helixsleep.com/huberman to get up to 25% off.
再次强调，helixsleep.com/huberman 提供高达 25% 的折扣。
I think for a lot of people, a practice of meditation feels like the best or most obvious gateway into this thing that we're calling mindfulness.
我认为对于很多人来说，冥想练习感觉像是进入我们所说的正念的最好或最明显的门户。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
It's one way, and I'm not demeaning it.
这是一种方式，我并不是贬低它。
I did some research in the '80s on meditation.
我在八十年代做了一些关于冥想的研究。
It's wonderful, it's just different.
太棒了，只是不同而已。
And they're not mutually exclusive.
而且它们并不相互排斥。
You can do both.
你可以两者都做。
And part of the advantage of meditating possibly has nothing to do with the meditation.
冥想的部分好处可能与冥想无关。
Why are you going to meditate?
你为什么要冥想？
You say you want to be a kinder, nicer person.
你说你想成为一个更善良、更友善的人。
You could just be kinder or nicer, but now if you're going to go to this trouble, 20 minutes twice a day, you're going to sit up and take notice and be a kinder, nicer person.
你可以变得更友善或更友善，但现在如果你要解决这个问题，每天两次 20 分钟，你就会坐起来并注意并成为一个更友善、友善的人。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So maybe it's the time investment as opposed to-
所以也许这是时间投资而不是-
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Part
部分
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
something specific about the meditation practice.
关于冥想练习的一些具体内容。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's a heretical idea in the world of wellness.
这在健康界是一个异端思想。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But of course-
但当然——
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
But they're not mutually exclusive.
但它们并不相互排斥。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
So I'm not denying some of the more inherent properties, let's say, but there's this other piece to it.
所以我并不是否认一些更固有的属性，但是还有其他的部分。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I love the way that you look at things that we take for granted as operating one way through this different perspective.
我喜欢你通过这种不同的视角来看待我们认为理所当然的事情的方式。
Our mutual friend Allie Crum told me the story that at one point she was in a conversation with you, and you said, "Well, maybe exercise and all its effects on our health is just an epiphenomenon."
我们共同的朋友艾莉·克拉姆告诉我这个故事，有一次她正在与你交谈，你说：“好吧，也许锻炼及其对我们健康的所有影响只是一种附带现象。”
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Could you talk a little bit more about that?
您能多谈谈吗？
I think, first of all, I don't think most people are familiar with what epiphenomena are, but this idea of looking at things through a different portal seems so valuable, regardless of what the experimental outcome turned out to be, and perhaps we should touch on that experimental outcome about labor versus non-labor.
我认为，首先，我认为大多数人并不熟悉副现象是什么，但这种通过不同门户看待事物的想法似乎非常有价值，无论实验结果如何，也许我们应该谈谈关于劳动与非劳动的实验结果。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
There's so much there, right?
那里有这么多，对吧？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
I don't know where to go.
我不知道该去哪里。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, first of all-
嗯，首先——
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
You want to talk about the research with Allie?
你想和艾莉谈谈研究吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, let's talk about the study.
是啊，我们来谈谈研究吧。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Before we get to the study, though, let's go to the reason for the study-
不过，在开始研究之前，让我们先了解一下这项研究的原因——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
...
...
way back when.
很久以前。
All right.
好的。
So there's so many paths I can take here.
所以我在这里可以走很多路。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Let's take them all.
让我们把它们全部带走吧。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Okay.
好的。
We'll start with one.
我们将从一个开始。
So I did some research back in the '70s with people in nursing homes.
所以我在 70 年代对疗养院的人们做了一些研究。
And why did I do that?
我为什么要这么做？
Because I had somebody in the family who was in a nursing home, and it was very distressing to see people just sitting there doing nothing and barely existing.
因为我家里有人住在疗养院里，看到人们只是坐在那里无所事事，几乎不存在，这是非常令人痛苦的。
And so we had the idea that if we gave people choices, that might get them more engaged in their living.
因此我们的想法是，如果我们为人们提供选择，可能会让他们更加投入到自己的生活中。
And so we did that.
所以我们就这么做了。
We gave people encouragement to decide where to see people, whether to visit them in your room, in the lounge.
我们鼓励人们决定在哪里见人，是在你的房间还是在休息室拜访他们。
You have to remember, you can't go into an establishment, a business, and turn the whole power structure around.
你必须记住，你不可能进入一个机构、一家企业，然后扭转整个权力结构。
So within reason, we came up with choices people could make.
因此，在合理范围内，我们提出了人们可以做出的选择。
We gave them an opportunity to see a movie.
我们给了他们看电影的机会。
You could see it on Tuesday or Thursday.
你可以在周二或周四看到它。
We gave them a plant to take care of.
我们给了他们一株植物来照顾。
All right?
好的？
The comparison group, the tender loving care group, we told them, "People will be visiting you, and we'll set it up so you'll be visiting in the lounge." Everything was controlled in that way.
对照组，温柔的关爱组，我们告诉他们，“人们会拜访你，我们会安排好，这样你就可以在休息室拜访。”一切都是这样控制的。
"You can see a movie, and we'll let you know if you're going to see it on Tuesday or Thursday.
“你可以看电影，如果你想在周二或周四看，我们会通知你。
Here's a plant, and the nurses will care for it for you." All right.
这是一株植物，护士会帮你照顾它。”好的。
So we do this.
所以我们这样做。
We come back, I think it was three weeks.
我们回来了，我想已经是三个星期了。
Gee, I don't remember.
哎呀，我不记得了。
It's been so long.
已经过去这么久了。
18 months later.
18个月后。
First we took initial measures, come back 18 months later, those people who were given these choices lived longer.
首先我们采取了初步措施，18个月后回来，那些被给予这些选择的人活得更长了。
And that was the beginning of all of my work on health in some sense.
从某种意义上说，这就是我所有健康工作的开始。
How could it be that making choices results in a longer life?
为什么做出选择就能延长寿命呢？
All right.
好的。
So what is there about choice making?
那么，关于选择有什么意义呢？
And then the choices were Mickey Mouse choices.
然后选择就是米老鼠的选择。
You always have choice available, too.
您也始终有选择。
You can turn on a light switch, you can do it with your right hand, your left hand, one finger, three fingers, lift your foot.
你可以打开电灯开关，你可以用右手，左手，一根手指，三根手指，抬起脚。
So many choices that you can bring to the table.
您可以带来如此多的选择。
If choice making is good for you, why don't people do this?
如果做出选择对你有利，为什么人们不这样做呢？
And that got me more into the mindlessness and mindfulness work now.
这让我现在更多地投入到无意识和正念的工作中。
Okay, so we have people living longer.
好的，所以我们有人活得更长。
How can it be that you're making choices, your mind is active, and your body complies?
怎么可能是你在做出选择，你的思想是活跃的，你的身体是服从的？
And so then I thought about it, not in one fell swoop, but realized that this whole notion of mind and body, these are just words.
然后我想了一下，不是一下子就想到的，而是意识到这整个身心的概念，这些只是文字而已。
We come together, here I am, all of me, my fingers, my shoulders, my thoughts as one thing.
我们走到一起，我在这里，我的全部，我的手指，我的肩膀，我的思想合而为一。
And if we put the mind and body back together, then the amount of control we have is enormous, right?
如果我们把思想和身体重新整合在一起，那么我们拥有的控制力是巨大的，对吗？
Wherever I put my mind, I'm also putting my body.
无论我把我的思想放在哪里，我也会把我的身体放在哪里。
So in the mindful body Which started off as a memoir.
因此，在正念身体中，这本书最初是一本回忆录。
I have lots of stories that show the leading up to this idea.
我有很多故事可以说明这个想法的形成过程。
Let me just tell you two very quickly.
让我快速告诉你们两个。
One was I got married, Andrew, you won't believe it.
一是我结婚了，安德鲁，你不会相信。
I was obscenely young.
我当时太年轻了。
And you'll find out if you read the book, I was even younger than admitted because I was secretly married years before that.
如果你读过这本书，你就会发现，我比承认的还要年轻，因为几年前我就秘密结婚了。
Okay.
好的。
So I go, I'm 19 years old, I think.
所以我走了，我想我已经19岁了。
I go to Paris on my honeymoon.
我去巴黎度蜜月。
We go into this restaurant, and I order a mixed grill.
我们走进这家餐厅，我点了一份混合烧烤。
One of the foods there was a pancreas.
其中一种食物是胰腺。
My then-husband, who was more sophisticated than I, more worldly, I said, "Which of these is the pancreas?" He says, "That." So I eat everything.
我当时的丈夫比我更世故，更世俗，我说：“其中哪个是胰腺？”他说：“那个。”所以我什么都吃。
I'm a big eater.
我是个大胃王。
Now comes the moment of truth.
现在到了关键时刻。
Can I eat the pancreas?
胰脏可以吃吗？
Why I thought that being married meant I had to eat the pancreas, I still haven't figured out.
为什么我认为结婚就意味着我必须吃掉胰腺，我仍然不明白。
But anyway, I start eating it, and he starts laughing.
但无论如何，我开始吃它，他开始笑。
Not good for newlyweds.
不适合新婚夫妇。
And I ask him, "Why are you laughing?" He said, "Because that's chicken.
我问他：“你为什么笑？”他说：“因为那是鸡。
You ate the pancreas a long time ago." So I made myself sick.
你很久以前就吃掉了胰脏。”所以我让自己生病了。
Okay.
好的。
The other side of that, my mother had breast cancer that had metastasized to her pancreas, and then magically it was gone.
另一方面，我母亲患有乳腺癌，已经转移到胰腺，然后神奇地消失了。
Somehow she had made herself well.
不知怎的，她已经让自己康复了。
So I had many of these sorts of experiences and talk about mind-- I've been talking about this since, gosh, when did we first?
所以我有很多这样的经历并谈论心灵——我从那时起就一直在谈论这个，天哪，我们什么时候第一次谈论这个？
Since '79.
从79年开始。
So now people are talking about mind-body connection.
所以现在人们正在谈论身心联系。
It's not a connection.
这不是一种联系。
If you're talking about a connection between two things, it says they're separate, and you still have to deal with what's connecting them.
如果你谈论的是两件事之间的联系，那就说明它们是分开的，而你仍然需要处理连接它们的因素。
When you put them back together, it's one thing.
当你把它们重新组合在一起时，这是一回事。
You don't have to deal with that mediator.
你不必与那个调解人打交道。
And so the study you're asking me about, which I'm surprised, I'm having a junior moment that I actually remembered the question you asked rather than a senior moment that before I tell you about the study with Allie, the first study we did testing this mind-body unity was a counterclockwise study.
所以你问我的研究，我很惊讶，我在初级时刻，我实际上记得你问的问题，而不是在我告诉你关于艾莉的研究之前的高级时刻，我们测试这种身心统一性的第一项研究是逆时针研究。
So here what we did was we took elderly men.
所以我们在这里所做的就是带上了老人。
We were going to have them live in a retreat that had been retrofitted to 20 years earlier and had them live there as if they were their younger selves.
我们打算让他们住在一个经过改造的静修处，这个静修处是20年前的样子，让他们住在那里，就像年轻时的自己一样。
So they talked about things from the past as if they were just unfolding.
所以他们谈论过去的事情就好像它们刚刚展开一样。
And the results were incredible.
结果令人难以置信。
Their vision improved, their hearing improved, their memory, their strength, and they looked noticeably younger.
他们的视力、听力、记忆力、体力都得到改善，而且看起来明显更年轻。
So that was very exciting and began all this mind-body unity work.
所以这非常令人兴奋，并开始了所有这些身心统一的工作。
Now comes the study that you're talking about with Allie, where in the conversation that she and I had, she was my student, and she made proclamations about exercise and any proclamation, this is the short answer to your question, anybody proclaims anything, my mind immediately goes to, "Well, when might not that be true?" I'm starting to pick up on that.
现在是你和艾莉谈论的研究，在她和我的谈话中，她是我的学生，她发表了关于锻炼和任何声明的声明，这是对你的问题的简短回答，任何人声明任何东西，我的头脑立即想到，“好吧，什么时候这不是真的？”我开始意识到这一点。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
It's a gimmick, I guess.
我猜这是一个噱头。
It's a gift is what it is.
这就是一份礼物。
Okay.
好的。
Yeah.
是的。
And so the question was that how important was the understanding of exercise to the effects of exercise?
那么问题是，了解运动对于运动的效果有多重要？
So we take chamber maids, and interestingly, the first question we ask is, how much exercise do you get?
所以我们找了女服务员，有趣的是，我们问的第一个问题是，你的运动量是多少？
And they say they don't get very much exercise because to them, exercise is what you do after work, because that's what the surgeon general who sits behind a desk all day says.
他们说他们没有得到太多锻炼，因为对他们来说，锻炼就是下班后做的事情，因为这就是整天坐在办公桌后面的卫生局局长所说的。
So you would imagine whether they realized they were getting exercise or not, since they're getting so much exercise, that they're going to be healthier than other people who are not getting that.
所以你可以想象他们是否意识到自己正在锻炼，因为他们进行了如此多的锻炼，所以他们会比其他没有锻炼的人更健康。
And they weren't.
但他们没有。
That's interesting.
那很有意思。
So now we divide them into two groups, very simple study.
所以现在我们把他们分成两组，非常简单的研究。
Randomly divide them into two groups, and one group, we simply teach them their work is exercise.
将他们随机分为两组，其中一组，我们简单地教他们，他们的工作就是锻炼。
Making a bed is like working in this machine at the gym, doing the windows, whatever.
铺床就像在健身房的这台机器上工作，修理窗户等等。
So you have two groups, one who thinks their work is exercise, one who doesn't realize.
所以你有两组人，一组人认为他们的工作是锻炼，一组人没有意识到。
We take many, many measures, and they're not eating any differently, one group from the other.
我们采取了很多很多措施，他们的饮食并没有任何不同，一组与另一组。
They're not working any harder.
他们不再更加努力地工作。
Nevertheless, the group that changed their mind and now saw their work as exercise lost weight.
然而，改变主意并将工作视为锻炼的小组却减肥了。
There was a change in waist-to-hip ratio, body mass index, and their blood pressure came down.
腰臀比、体重指数发生了变化，血压也下降了。
Remarkable.
卓越。
Yeah.
是的。
And what I don't usually talk about when I start talking about this is that this was a test of the nocebo effect.
当我开始谈论这个时，我通常不会谈论的是这是对反安慰剂效应的测试。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Most people know what a placebo is.
大多数人都知道什么是安慰剂。
You take something that's nothing, and it has the effect as if it's something.
你拿了一些无足轻重的东西，它却产生了好像有东西一样的效果。
You take a sugar pill thinking it's strong medication, and it plays out as if it was.
你服用一颗糖丸，认为它是强效药物，而它的作用就好像它是强效药物一样。
A nocebo is the reverse.
反安慰剂则相反。
You're taking something, so here you're doing the exercise, but you don't realize it, and it gets rid of the effect.
你正在服用一些东西，所以你在这里做练习，但你没有意识到，它就消除了效果。
An early study on this was, I don't remember who did it.
对此的早期研究是，我不记得是谁干的。
Now it was a senior moment.
现在是一个高级时刻。
People were given ipecac, and ipecac is supposed to make you vomit.
人们服用了吐根，而吐根应该会让你呕吐。
So if you accidentally had poison or whatever, you'd take ipecac and vomit.
所以如果你不小心中毒了或者其他什么，你就会吃吐根然后呕吐。
So people are given ipecac, people have a problem vomiting, and they're told the ipecac will stop their vomiting.
因此，人们会服用吐根，当人们出现呕吐问题时，他们会被告知吐根会阻止呕吐。
And it stops their vomiting.
它可以阻止他们的呕吐。
So many placebo studies where you take people, they're rubbed with a leaf that they think is poison ivy, so it either is poison ivy, or it's not poison ivy.
在很多安慰剂研究中，你让人们用一片他们认为是毒葛的叶子摩擦他们，所以它要么是毒葛，要么不是毒葛。
You think it's poison ivy, or you don't think it's poison ivy, and your body reacts to your thoughts.
你认为它是毒葛，或者你不认为它是毒葛，你的身体会对你的想法做出反应。
If you think it's not poison ivy, you don't get the rash.
如果你认为这不是毒葛，你就不会出现皮疹。
If you think it is poison ivy, you do.
如果您认为它是毒藤，那么您就是这么做的。
Spectacular.
壮观。
Yeah.
是的。
And so we've been studying this forever.
所以我们一直在研究这个问题。
I think that placebos are probably our very strongest medicine.
我认为安慰剂可能是我们最有效的药物。
Although, it's interesting that- When people think that they were given a placebo, they get very upset.
不过，有趣的是，当人们认为自己服用的是安慰剂时，他们会感到非常沮丧。
They should be excited, because if the placebo didn't cure you, who cured you?
他们应该感到兴奋，因为如果安慰剂不能治愈你，谁治愈了你？
You did it yourself.
你自己做的。
But placebos have gotten a bad rap, I think primarily because of the pharmaceutical companies, right?
但安慰剂的名声不好，我想主要是因为制药公司，对吧？
You want to bring a drug to market, the way you do that is you have to run an experiment where the drug outperforms the placebo.
如果你想将一种药物推向市场，你必须进行一项实验，让药物的效果优于安慰剂。
And when it doesn't, damn it, I can't make all those billions of dollars without saying, "Wow, this sugar pill is mighty strong."
如果没有，该死的，我赚了几十亿美元就不能不说：“哇，这糖丸太强大了。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I want to talk about three themes that you raised.
我想谈谈您提出的三个主题。
The first one is this mind-body notion.
第一个是身心概念。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And now, even as I say it, mind-body, I feel like a hint of guilt because I completely agree that the division of mind and body is one of the greatest mistakes of thinking in psychology and Western medicine that ever existed.
现在，即使我这么说，“身心”，我也感到一丝内疚，因为我完全同意，心灵和身体的划分是心理学和西方医学有史以来最大的思维错误之一。
In fact, a lot of my secret mission in this podcast is to remind people every single episode, it seems, that the brain and body are connected bidirectionally through the nervous system, but other systems too.
事实上，我在这个播客中的很多秘密任务似乎是在每一集提醒人们，大脑和身体通过神经系统双向连接，但其他系统也是如此。
There's no single system, hormone system, nervous system, immune system-
没有单一的系统，激素系统，神经系统，免疫系统——
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Right, it's all one
对了，都是一
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that doesn't cross the blood-brain barrier and go back and forth.
它不会穿过血脑屏障并来回移动。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
It's all because of Descartes.
这一切都是因为笛卡尔。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Descartes was out to dinner, and the waitress asked him if he wanted a salad, and he said, "I think not," and he disappeared.
笛卡尔出去吃晚饭，女服务员问他是否想要沙拉，他说：“我想不需要。”然后他就消失了。
I think I, therefore I am.
我想我，故我在。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I was about to ask, how was it that you-
我正想问，你怎么——
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
And after that, Andrew, I say this is not my day job, so I don't have to be funny.
之后，安德鲁，我说这不是我的日常工作，所以我不必搞笑。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I love it.
我喜欢它。
I've spent a lot of time trying to learn the history of medicine and the-
我花了很多时间尝试学习医学史和-
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
merge of philosophy and medicine.
哲学与医学的融合。
There's a wonderful book that if anyone is suffering from insomnia, they should check out because it's extremely detailed and difficult to listen to or read, but it's called "The Prince of Medicine," which basically details all the reasons why we are so confused about how medicine is done and should be done.
有一本很棒的书，如果有人患有失眠症，他们应该看看，因为它非常详细，很难听或读，但这本书叫《医学王子》，它基本上详细介绍了我们对如何做医学和应该做医学感到如此困惑的所有原因。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Interesting.
有趣。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it has to do with rules and restrictions and cultural conventions, and it's a whole barbed wire mess, basically.
这与规则、限制和文化习俗有关，基本上是一团乱七八糟的铁丝网。
But it includes this mess that was created for us, which is this idea that somehow because the brain is perhaps the seat of our consciousness, to many people, they believe that.
但它包括为我们制造的混乱，这个想法不知何故因为大脑可能是我们意识的所在地，对很多人来说，他们相信这一点。
But certainly, if I were to lose a few fingers on my left hand, I'm not sure I would fundamentally be a different person, but if I lost a few millimeters, or the equivalent amount of real estate in my brain, my personality could very well change, perhaps for the better- ...
但当然，如果我失去左手的几根手指，我不确定我会从根本上成为一个不同的人，但如果我失去几毫米，或者我大脑中同等数量的空间，我的性格很可能会改变，也许会变得更好......
some would say, and are probably now hoping for that event.
有些人会说，并且现在可能正在期待这一事件。
But all kidding aside, I think the mind-body distinction has really poisoned-
但抛开开玩笑不谈，我认为身心的区别确实有毒了——
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
our thinking about what's possible, and the other experiments that you described point to what's possible.
我们对可能性的思考，以及您描述的其他实验都表明了可能性。
And I want to talk about those, but maybe if we could just hover on this notion of mind and body as a single thing, that there's an us.
我想谈谈这些，但也许如果我们能把思想和身体作为一个整体的概念徘徊，那就是有一个我们。
I don't want to get too philosophical here, but that there's an us, and our body carries us forward in motor behavior.
我不想在这里变得太哲学化，但有一个我们，我们的身体在运动行为中带动我们前进。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Well-
嗯-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But how should we conceptualize the self if we don't have a mind-body distinction?
但是，如果我们没有身心区分，我们应该如何概念化自我呢？
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
I don't know why that's a problem.
我不知道为什么这是一个问题。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, I think-
嗯，我想——
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
I am who I am-
我就是我——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
...
...
period.
期间。
How does that change whether we want to see me as having a mind, body, and elbows?
如果我们想要看到我有思想、身体和肘部，这会如何改变？
So explain to me, and then I will explain to you.
所以你先给我解释一下，然后我再给你解释。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Well, what I love is-- I'm going to first reflect.
嗯，我喜欢的是——我首先要反思。
What I love is the flexibility of your thinking around these things.
我喜欢的是你对这些事情思考的灵活性。
Again, it's like maybe exercise, the effects of exercise are epiphenomena.
再说一次，这就像锻炼一样，锻炼的效果是附带现象。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So in thinking about mind-body, I can't get my, no pun intended, my head around this distinction that if I lose a certain piece of my body, I'm not fundamentally changed.
因此，在思考身心时，我无法理解这样的区别：如果我失去了身体的某一部分，我并没有从根本上改变。
But if I lose a piece of neural real estate, I'm fundamentally different.
但如果我失去了一块神经空间，我就会完全不同。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Well, that's-
嗯，那就是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's the only thing that anchors me to the-
这是唯一让我坚定的——
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah, but that's not-
是的，但这不是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
idea that they're separate
认为他们是分开的
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Why is that true?
为什么这是真的？
If let's say you're an athlete and you lose two of your fingers, you're not going to be performing in the same way that you performed in the past, and surely you'd end up different.
如果你是一名运动员，并且失去了两根手指，那么你的表现将不会像过去那样，而且你的结局肯定会有所不同。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
I'll buy that explanation.
我会买那个解释。
Yeah.
是的。
I'm just trying to probe this because I think nowadays people think, "Oh, if I breathe in a certain way, I'll change my state of mind," which is true.
我只是想探究这个问题，因为我认为现在人们会想，“哦，如果我以某种方式呼吸，我就会改变我的心态，”这是事实。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
If I think differently, get stressed or relaxed, I'll change the way that I breathe.
如果我有不同的想法，感到有压力或放松，我会改变我的呼吸方式。
I think that we're starting to understand the bidirectionality of these things.
我认为我们开始理解这些事物的双向性。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
I think some of the, even the work with the brain, where to assess-- This neuroscience now is crazy with fMRIs.
我认为有些，甚至是大脑的工作，在哪里评估——现在的神经科学对功能磁共振成像很疯狂。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
No matter what happens, you want to see what's going on in the brain.
无论发生什么，你都想看看大脑中发生了什么。
And I think that implicitly, in a backwards way, that leads people away from realizing that whatever you're looking for is probably manifested every place.
我认为，这隐含地、以一种倒退的方式，让人们无法意识到你所寻找的任何东西可能都在每个地方都有体现。
I had this experience.
我有过这样的经历。
I like doing strange things, and I was out in Kansas City, and so somebody said there's an iridologist.
我喜欢做奇怪的事情，当时我在堪萨斯城，所以有人说那里有一位虹膜学家。
What is an iridologist?
什么是虹膜科医生？
Sure, for fun, we'll go to the iridologist.
当然，为了好玩，我们会去看虹膜科医生。
So this person is looking in my eye, my iris, that's the iridologist part, and she said, " You have a problem with your gallbladder." I thought, "Okay, that's great." Okay, so we leave and have my time.
所以这个人正在看我的眼睛，我的虹膜，这是虹膜科医生的部分，她说，“你的胆囊有问题。”我想：“好吧，那太好了。”好吧，我们离开并享受我的时间。
I go back home, and I had a problem with my gallbladder.
我回到家，我的胆囊出现了问题。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Really?
真的吗？
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Everything is everywhere.
一切都无处不在。
The problem is we don't have the technology to notice it.
问题是我们没有技术来注意到它。
So when you're happy, your skin is different from when you're not happy, but who can see such small distinctions?
所以当你快乐的时候，你的皮肤和你不快乐的时候是不一样的，但是谁能看到这么小的区别呢？
But it's there.
但它就在那里。
All we do is look to see where the brain is different.
我们所做的就是看看大脑的不同之处。
It's all one.
都是一。
Anything, I believe, anything that's happening on any level is simultaneously, not sequentially, more or less happening on every level So a teardrop of sadness biochemically is different from a teardrop of joy.
我相信，任何层面上发生的任何事情都是同时发生的，而不是顺序发生的，或多或少地在每个层面上发生。因此，从生化角度来看，悲伤的泪珠与喜悦的泪珠不同。
And so it's all there, we just have to notice.
所以一切都在那里，我们只需要注意即可。
I have no memory now of what it was you said that led to that on my part, but I'm glad I said it anyway.
我现在不记得你说了什么导致我这么做，但我很高兴我还是说了这句话。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, we're probing mind, body, and their interconnectedness.
好吧，我们正在探索思想、身体以及它们之间的相互联系。
And so this iridologist, I've never heard that term before.
这位虹膜科医生，我以前从未听说过这个词。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This iridologist, based on what we were discussing a few moments ago, it could be that the suggestion that there was a problem with your gallbladder led to a problem with your gallbladder, or do you think that she had some, or he had some diagnostic knowledge?
这位虹膜科医生，根据我们刚才讨论的情况，可能是你胆囊有问题的暗示导致你胆囊有问题，或者你认为她有一些，或者他有一些诊断知识？
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
I hadn't even considered the former, which is strange to me.
我什至没有考虑过前者，这对我来说很奇怪。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
No, I just assumed that she was seeing something.
不，我只是假设她看到了什么。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
And I don't know, but your idea-- But either way is fascinating, right?
我不知道，但你的想法——但无论哪种方式都很有趣，对吧？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
By somebody suggesting you have a gallbladder problem, to have a gallbladder problem.
有人建议您有胆囊问题，有胆囊问题。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's wild.
那太疯狂了。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What are your thoughts on things like acupuncture?
您对针灸之类的事情有何看法？
And when I think about acupuncture, I'm not just thinking about the needles.
当我想到针灸时，我想到的不仅仅是针。
The few times I've been to an acupuncturist, the first thing they do is they ask you to stick out your tongue.
我去过针灸师几次，他们做的第一件事就是让你伸出舌头。
They are able to diagnose-
他们能够诊断——
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Oh
噢
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
tongue texture and color, and maybe they're-- Yeah.
舌头的质地和颜色，也许它们是——是的。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
I think everything is everywhere, although I teach health psych at Harvard, and there's some data on it being mostly placebo.
我认为一切都无处不在，尽管我在哈佛大学教授健康心理学，并且有一些数据主要是安慰剂。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
And that sounds like a downer, but most of everything is placebo.
这听起来像是一种令人沮丧的东西，但大多数东西都是安慰剂。
What does that mean?
这意味着什么？
That virtually everything is controlled by our thoughts, and we need to embrace that to make the changes that most of us desire.
事实上一切都由我们的思想控制，我们需要接受这一点才能做出我们大多数人渴望的改变。
So in other words, going to an acupuncturist itself means I want to find the answers-
换句话说，去看针灸师本身就意味着我想找到答案——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
...
...
and seek and you are more likely to find.
去寻找，你就更有可能找到。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
And then you're in a position to improve.
然后你就可以进步了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Might I ask what happened with your mom's mindset or life-
我可以问一下你妈妈的心态或生活发生了什么吗-
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Oh
噢
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
or psychological life that you think led to the-
或你认为导致-的心理生活
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
No, it's an N of 1.
不，这是 1 的 N。
It's very hard to know.
这很难知道。
I knew that when she got sick, I believed at that point that being anything negative was going to work in the opposite direction.
我知道，当她生病时，我相信任何消极的事情都会产生相反的效果。
And so I wouldn't let anybody in to see her who wasn't uplifting.
所以我不会让任何人进来见她，如果她不乐观的话。
There's no way of knowing if any of that mattered or not.
没有办法知道这些是否重要。
I went and got her a very expensive set of golf clubs.
我去给她买了一套非常昂贵的高尔夫球杆。
She wasn't a big golfer, but my reasoning was that I must believe she's going to be better or why would I have spent the money?
她不是一个高尔夫球高手，但我的理由是我必须相信她会变得更好，否则我为什么要花这笔钱呢？
Her reasoning was my reasoning must be that if I get these, she'll think that ...
她的理由是我的理由一定是如果我得到这些，她会认为......
So it didn't work, but we had these golf clubs that were never used.
所以它不起作用，但我们有这些从未使用过的高尔夫球杆。
I don't know.
我不知道。
I believe that we have more control.
我相信我们有更多的控制权。
At that point, I hadn't done all of these experiments that might have led me to push even harder.
那时，我还没有完成所有这些可能会让我更加努力的实验。
It was kind of funny, though, because the way I had cognized everything back then was the importance of perceived control.
不过，这有点有趣，因为我当时认知一切的方式就是感知控制的重要性。
And so I had these data people living longer and so on.
所以我得到了这些数据，人们的寿命更长等等。
And yet, mindlessly, I virtually took over her life, deciding who can see her, what she can do.
然而，不知不觉中，我实际上接管了她的生活，决定谁可以看到她，她可以做什么。
But I don't know, and I don't think there would've been, with just one person, any way of knowing what led to the disease going away.
但我不知道，而且我认为仅凭一个人就不可能有任何方法知道是什么导致了这种疾病的消失。
But the fact that it went away was crucial to me.
但它消失的事实对我来说至关重要。
I think that we have to talk about the myths in medicine, that what people need to understand is that all science are probabilities.
我认为我们必须谈论医学上的神话，人们需要了解的是所有科学都是概率。
An experiment doesn't give you absolute facts.
实验并不能给你绝对的事实。
And we teach these probabilities as if they're absolute, and give up a great deal of control by doing so.
我们教授这些概率就好像它们是绝对的一样，并通过这样做放弃了大量的控制。
Now, you asked me before about how I came to certain things.
现在，你之前问过我是如何得出某些事情的。
Let me go back to an answer I should have given you.
让我回到我应该给你的答案。
Many years ago, I was at a horse event, and this man asked me would I watch his horse for him because he wants to get his horse a hot dog.
许多年前，我参加一个赛马活动，这个人问我可以帮他看管他的马吗，因为他想给他的马买个热狗。
Hot dog?
热狗？
I'm a straight A student.
我是全A学生。
What is he, crazy?
他是什么人，疯了吗？
Horses don't eat meat.
马不吃肉。
"Sure, I'll watch your horse." He comes back with the hot dog, and the horse ate it.
“当然，我会看管你的马的。”他带着热狗回来，马吃了它。
And that's when I realized everything I thought I knew could be wrong.
就在那时我意识到我认为我所知道的一切都可能是错误的。
And I thought, what does it mean, horses don't eat meat?
我想，马不吃肉是什么意思？
How many horses were tested, and what were they tested with?
测试了多少匹马，测试了什么？
How much meat mixed with how much grain, and what kind of grain?
多少肉与多少谷物混合，以及哪种谷物？
And how big are these horses?
这些马有多大？
And when was the last-- And so on, and it all opened up, and I said, how could we make such a statement, horses don't eat meat?
最后一次是什么时候——等等，一切都展开了，我说，我们怎么能做出这样的声明，马不吃肉？
But when you think about science, then imagine if you did the experiment and you're trying to teach somebody what you found, you say, "These particular horses who hadn't eaten for three days were given this grain, and under those circumstances, 80% of them didn't eat meat." That's a mouthful, right?
但是当你思考科学时，想象一下，如果你做了这个实验，并且你试图教别人你的发现，你会说，“这些三天没有吃东西的特殊马被给予了这种谷物，在这种情况下，80％的马不吃肉。”那是一口，对吧？
You can't communicate that way-
你们不能这样沟通——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
...
...
so you abbreviate it.
所以你把它缩写了。
Horses don't eat meat.
马不吃肉。
So it's not in the telling that's the problem, it's in the receiving of the information.
所以问题不在于讲述，而在于信息的接收。
We have to know that these things are just not true to the one.
我们必须知道这些事情并不真实。
But it's very important because every time you're given a diagnosis, you take the diagnosis as real.
但这非常重要，因为每次您得到诊断时，您都会将其视为真实的诊断。
Well, it's not the case that they can be sure that all of these symptoms mean you have this disease.
嗯，他们并不能确定所有这些症状都意味着你患有这种疾病。
And if you have, quote, "this disease," we don't know that all of the people who have it are going to follow, and it becomes very unlikely when you turn it all inside out that way.
如果你患有，引用“这种疾病”，我们不知道所有患有这种疾病的人都会跟随，当你以这种方式把它彻底翻转时，它就变得非常不可能。
And so another part of this that we can get into or not is people's understanding probabilities in general, and that you can't predict Now, people ask for answers all the time.
因此，我们可以了解或不了解的另一部分是人们对一般概率的理解，而你无法预测现在，人们一直在寻求答案。
Even the how much is one and one?
甚至一加一是多少？
Should I have the surgery?
我应该接受手术吗？
What is the disease that I have?
我得的是什么病？
And by recognizing that all information that's given is for the group, not for the individual.
并且认识到所提供的所有信息都是针对群体的，而不是针对个人的。
A few examples of this that's kind of funny.
举几个例子，这有点有趣。
I say, so Michael Jordan and I are going to have a foul shooting contest.
我说，所以迈克尔·乔丹和我要进行一场罚球比赛。
We each get to shoot one basket.
我们每人投篮一次。
Who's going to win?
谁会赢？
Well, most people are just going to quickly say Michael Jordan.
好吧，大多数人很快就会说迈克尔·乔丹。
All right?
好的？
How much money are you willing to bet on this?
你愿意为此赌多少钱？
One shot each.
每人一枪。
Million dollars.
百万美元。
I'll give you a million dollars if Ellen Langer wins, or I'll give you a million dollars if Michael Jordan wins.
如果艾伦·兰格获胜，我将给你一百万美元；如果迈克尔·乔丹获胜，我将给你一百万美元。
You give me half a million dollars if Ellen Langer wins.
如果艾伦·兰格获胜，你给我五十万美元。
First, you think you'll take the bet, but when you think about it, no, he sometimes misses.
首先，你以为你会下注，但仔细想想，不，他有时会输。
She sometimes makes the basket.
她有时会做篮子。
Maybe he had a fight with his wife, didn't sleep well.
可能是跟老婆吵架了，没睡好。
Maybe she's in top form, and this is now the moment she's going to make that basket.
也许她正处于最佳状态，现在正是她投篮的时刻。
Or make it simple.
或者让它变得简单。
He said to himself, "Let the older woman win.
他对自己说：“让年长的女人赢吧。
Why not?" Really.
为什么不呢？”真的。
And when you think of all the reasons why it could be the case that I could win, all of a sudden, you become less certain.
当你想到我可能获胜的所有原因时，你突然变得不那么确定了。
Now, certainly, if we were shooting 100 baskets, he would win.
现在，当然，如果我们投 100 个篮子，他就会赢。
Let me give you another example I use too often because I don't know which of these will feel right.
让我再举一个我经常使用的例子，因为我不知道哪一个感觉合适。
You go to a Mercedes parking lot, or pick your favorite car, and let's say there are 100 cars there.
你去奔驰停车场，或者选择你最喜欢的车，假设那里有 100 辆车。
You choose one, and if it starts, I will give you a million dollars.
你选一个，如果开始的话，我会给你一百万美元。
If it doesn't start, you give me your full life savings, assuming it's under a million, capped at a million.
如果没有开始，你就把你一生的积蓄都给我，假设不到一百万，上限一百万。
All right?
好的？
Now, Mercedes are wonderful cars.
现在，梅赛德斯是很棒的汽车。
Nobody is going to take that bet.
没有人会接受这个赌注。
Everybody knows sometimes it doesn't work.
每个人都知道有时它不起作用。
Sometimes the genius gets something wrong.
有时天才也会犯错。
Sometimes the car is a lemon, and so on.
有时汽车是柠檬，等等。
So what we mean when we say, if you were going to start 100 cars, most of them are going to start, but you can't predict which one isn't going to.
所以当我们说如果你要启动 100 辆汽车时，大多数汽车都会启动，但你无法预测哪一辆不会启动。
Well, in life, I'm happy if an operation is good for most people.
嗯，在生活中，如果手术对大多数人都有好处，我会很高兴。
I want to know, is it going to work for me?
我想知道，它对我有用吗？
And there's no way to know that.
没有办法知道这一点。
You can never predict the individual case.
你永远无法预测个案。
But Andrew, we don't have to worry about that because you can always predict or control your reaction to whatever is happening.
但是安德鲁，我们不必担心这一点，因为你总是可以预测或控制你对发生的任何事情的反应。
So it doesn't matter as much.
所以这并不重要。
You see, if I can be happy whether this occurs or the opposite occurs, I care less about which way it turns out.
你看，如果无论发生这种情况还是发生相反情况我都能感到高兴，我就不在乎结果如何。
But right now, we're all brought up in a world where we have these good things, we have these bad things.
但现在，我们都在一个有好有坏的世界里长大。
You've got to kill yourself to get the good things, step over whoever you can to avoid the bad things.
你必须自杀才能得到好的东西，你必须超越任何人才能避免坏的事情。
Once you recognize that's all in your head, you just be still.
一旦你认识到这一切都在你的脑海里，你就保持安静。
My favorite example, this for me was so funny.
我最喜欢的例子，这对我来说太有趣了。
I'm doing one of these podcasts over Zoom, and I'm trying to explain that evaluation is in your head, not in the things you're evaluating.
我正在通过 Zoom 制作一个播客，我试图解释评估是在你的头脑中，而不是在你正在评估的事物中。
I say as an example, so if the internet went out right now, wouldn't be terrible.
我举个例子，如果现在互联网断了，也不会太糟糕。
I'd go have lunch.
我要去吃午饭。
The internet went out just at that moment, and I did have lunch because I had put the suggestion in my mind.
就在那时互联网断了，我确实吃了午饭，因为我已经把这个建议记在心里了。
Most things don't matter.
大多数事情并不重要。
We don't recognize that, and I have a few one-liners that if people understand or care about nothing else that I've said, take this to heart, that next time you're stressed, ask yourself, is it a tragedy or an inconvenience?
我们不认识到这一点，我有几句俏皮话，如果人们不理解或不关心我所说的其他任何事情，请牢记这一点，下次当你感到压力时，问问自己，这是一场悲剧还是一种不便？
It's almost never a tragedy.
这几乎从来都不是悲剧。
And so then you breathe.
然后你呼吸。
So I failed the test, I dented the car, I missed the bus, whatever it is.
所以我没通过测试，我把车撞凹了，我错过了公共汽车，不管是什么。
So what?
所以呢？
And so you take a deep breath and come back to yourself and realize that most of the things that make us crazed are unnecessary.
于是你深吸一口气，回过神来，意识到大多数让我们疯狂的事情都是不必要的。
You get a lot of this as you get older, but I teach my students this early on.
随着年龄的增长，你会得到很多这样的东西，但我很早就教我的学生。
Why wait?
为什么要等？
Why wait to recognize that you're the one who's almost always your worst enemy?
为什么要等到承认你几乎总是你最大的敌人呢？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd like to take a quick break and thank our sponsor, AG1.
我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商 AG1。
AG1 is an all-in-one vitamin mineral probiotic drink with adaptogens.
AG1 是一种含有适应原的一体化维生素矿物质益生菌饮料。
I've been taking AG1 daily since 2012, so I'm delighted that they're sponsoring this podcast.
自 2012 年以来，我每天都服用 AG1，所以我很高兴他们赞助这个播客。
The reason I started taking AG1, and the reason I still take AG1, is because it is the highest quality and most complete foundational nutritional supplement.
我开始服用 AG1 的原因，以及我仍然服用 AG1 的原因，是因为它是最高品质和最完整的基础营养补充剂。
What that means is that AG1 ensures that you're getting all the necessary vitamins, minerals, and other micronutrients to form a strong foundation for your daily health.
这意味着 AG1 可确保您获得所有必需的维生素、矿物质和其他微量营养素，为您的日常健康奠定坚实的基础。
AG1 also has probiotics and prebiotics that support a healthy gut microbiome.
AG1 还含有支持健康肠道微生物群的益生菌和益生元。
Your gut microbiome consists of trillions of microorganisms that line your digestive tract and impact things such as your immune system status, your metabolic health, your hormone health, and much more.
您的肠道微生物组由数万亿微生物组成，这些微生物排列在您的消化道中，并影响您的免疫系统状态、代谢健康、激素健康等。
So I've consistently found that when I take AG1 daily, my digestion is improved, my immune system is more robust, and my mood and mental focus are at their best.
因此，我一直发现，当我每天服用 AG1 时，我的消化能力得到改善，我的免疫系统更加强大，我的情绪和精神集中度也处于最佳状态。
In fact, if I could take just one supplement, that supplement would be AG1.
事实上，如果我只能服用一种补充剂，那么该补充剂就是 AG1。
If you'd like to try AG1, you can go to drinkag1.com/huberman to claim a special offer.
如果您想尝试 AG1，可以访问 Drinkag1.com/huberman 申请特别优惠。
They'll give you five free travel packs plus a year's supply of vitamin D3 K2 with your order of AG1.
您订购 AG1 时，他们将赠送您五个免费旅行包以及一年的维生素 D3 K2。
Again, go to drinkag1.com/huberman to claim this special offer.
请再次访问 Drinkag1.com/huberman 领取此特别优惠。
Today's episode is also brought to us by Joovv.
今天的节目也是Joovv给我们带来的。
Joovv makes medical-grade red light therapy devices.
Joovv 生产医疗级红光治疗设备。
Now, if there's one thing that I have consistently emphasized on this podcast, it is the incredible impact that light can have on our biology.
现在，如果我在这个播客中一直强调一件事，那就是光对我们的生物学产生的令人难以置信的影响。
Now, in addition to sunlight, red light and near-infrared light sources have been shown to have positive effects on improving numerous aspects of cellular and organ health, including faster muscle recovery, improved skin health and wound healing, improvements in acne, reduced pain and inflammation, even mitochondrial function, and improving vision itself.
现在，除了阳光之外，红光和近红外光源已被证明对改善细胞和器官健康的许多方面具有积极作用，包括更快的肌肉恢复、改善皮肤健康和伤口愈合、改善痤疮、减少疼痛和炎症，甚至线粒体功能，以及改善视力本身。
What sets Joovv lights apart, and why they're my preferred red light therapy device, is that they use clinically proven wavelengths, meaning specific wavelengths of red light and near-infrared light in combination to trigger the optimal cellular adaptations.
Joovv 灯的与众不同之处以及它们成为我首选红光治疗设备的原因在于它们使用经过临床验证的波长，这意味着特定波长的红光和近红外光相结合可以触发最佳的细胞适应。
Personally, I use the Joovv whole body panel about three to four times a week, and I use the Joovv handheld light both at home and when I travel.
就我个人而言，我每周大约使用 Joovv 全身面板三到四次，在家和旅行时我都会使用 Joovv 手持灯。
If you'd like to try Joovv, you can go to Joovv, spelled J-O-O-V-V, .com/huberman.
如果您想尝试 Joovv，可以访问 Joovv，拼写为 J-O-O-V-V，.com/huberman。
Joovv is offering an exclusive discount to all Huberman Lab listeners, with up to $400 off Joovv products.
Joovv 为所有 Huberman Lab 听众提供独家折扣，Joovv 产品最高可享受 400 美元折扣。
Again, that's Joovv, spelled J-O-O-V-V, .com/huberman to get up to $400 off.
同样，这是 Joovv，拼写为 J-O-O-V-V，.com/huberman 最高可享受 400 美元折扣。
So much of our developmental wiring is based on learning how to predict what's going to happen next.
我们的发展线路很大程度上是基于学习如何预测接下来会发生什么。
You think about object constancy, that kids of a certain age, you put a ball behind your back, they think it disappeared.
你想想物体恒常性，某个年龄的孩子，你把一个球放在背后，他们认为它消失了。
Eventually, they realize just because you moved your arm and the ball behind your back doesn't mean that the ball is gone.
最终，他们意识到仅仅因为你移动了手臂并且将球放在背后并不意味着球就消失了。
This kind of thing.
这种事。
The brain-
大脑——
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
But sadly, though, then they believe the ball is still there, when in fact the ball may be gone.
但遗憾的是，他们相信球仍然在那里，而实际上球可能已经消失了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
True.
确实如此。
Right.
正确的。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Okay, so-
好吧，那么——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There's always a portal to a different outcome.
总有一个通往不同结果的门户。
And I'm catching onto your mode of thinking here.
我在这里理解了你的思维模式。
This is actually what I'm trying to do.
这实际上就是我正在尝试做的事情。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
All right.
好吧。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because I think the brain is a prediction-making machine, in addition to doing other things.
因为我认为大脑除了做其他事情之外，还是一个预测机器。
It regulates heartbeat, all the autonomic stuff, heartbeat, digestion, et cetera.
它调节心跳、所有自主神经、心跳、消化等等。
It remembers things, and it's a prediction-making machine.
它能记住事情，而且是一台预测机器。
At least those three things.
至少这三件事。
I feel like the prediction-making aspect of our neural circuitry is what leads us to this notion of having control or wanting control, because I think a lot of what's happening in our conversation, in the backdrop of these experiments is, to what extent do we have control over outcomes?
我觉得我们的神经回路的预测方面是导致我们产生控制或想要控制的概念的原因，因为我认为在我们的谈话中，在这些实验的背景下发生的很多事情是，我们在多大程度上可以控制结果？
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Well, it's interesting because our mindlessness, which results, I think, in part, to hold onto things, to have control, is the very thing that deprives us of control.
嗯，这很有趣，因为我认为，我们的无意识在一定程度上导致了抓住事物、控制事物，而正是这种无意识剥夺了我们的控制权。
Because again, things are changing, and you're holding it still in your mind.
因为事情正在发生变化，而你却把它牢记在心。
So you're living with somebody, or you meet somebody, and right away you decide what, size that person up, so now you can control your interactions with them.
所以你和某人住在一起，或者你遇到了某人，你立即决定做什么，评估那个人，所以现在你可以控制与他们的互动。
But what you're doing is ignoring all the times the person is not like that, and all the ways that the relationship could have otherwise grown.
但你所做的就是忽略这个人不是那样的所有时候，以及关系本来可以发展的所有方式。
That we, in general-- I have a psychological treatment for chronic illness.
总的来说，我们对慢性病有心理治疗。
It's all based on the same idea of change.
这一切都基于相同的变革理念。
Things are changing.
事情正在发生变化。
We're always holding it still.
我们始终坚守着它。
And so you have the illusion that you're controlling things.
所以你会有一种错觉，认为你正在控制一切。
But in fact, you're giving up control by not recognizing, for yourself or somebody else, all of our statements of, "We can't do," or, "We can do." You can't know whether you can or you can't.
但事实上，如果你没有为自己或其他人认识到我们所有的“我们做不到”或“我们能做”的陈述，那么你就放弃了控制权。你无法知道你是否可以。
The fact that you did it doesn't mean that you can do it again.
你做过的事实并不意味着你可以再做一次。
The fact that you couldn't do it doesn't mean you couldn't do it in the future.
你做不到的事实并不意味着你将来也做不到。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I feel like close to the end of each year, which we just passed recently, these lists come out.
我觉得每年临近年底，我们最近刚刚过去，这些清单都会出来。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Oh, these resolutions are so mindless.
哦，这些决议真是无脑啊。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yes.
是的。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
But they're more than just mindless.
但他们不仅仅是盲目的。
They deny that what we did made sense or else we wouldn't have done it.
他们否认我们所做的事情是有意义的，否则我们就不会这样做。
That one thing, that I've told you, is more important to me than anything else that I came to over all these years of studying.
我告诉过你的这一件事对我来说比我这些年学习中学到的任何事情都更重要。
So you're going to resolve that you're going to, I don't know, stop drinking, you're going to go to the gym, whatever these New Year's resolutions are, suggests that what you were doing instead of that thing you think you should be doing was not something you should have been doing.
所以你要下定决心，我不知道，你要戒酒，你要去健身房，无论这些新年决心是什么，都表明你正在做的事情而不是你认为你应该做的事情不是你应该做的事情。
And I think that's never the case.
我认为事实并非如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I woke up early this morning, and my first thoughts of the day, I like to think have some importance for something.
我今天早上很早就醒了，今天我的第一个想法是，我喜欢认为某件事有一定的重要性。
Who knows?
谁知道？
It's when my mind seems clearest for at least a nanosecond.
当我的头脑看起来最清晰的时候至少有那么一纳秒。
And my first thought was that the pattern that I seem to be perpetually in is one of whatever I'm doing, unless I'm podcasting or reading a research paper, that my mind is constantly flitting to the other things that I think I should be doing.
我的第一个想法是，我似乎永远处于的模式是，无论我在做什么，除非我在播客或阅读研究论文，否则我的思绪会不断地转移到我认为我应该做的其他事情上。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah, that's sad.
是的，这很伤心。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's sad.
很伤心。
And it's something I've been working on for a very long time.
这是我长期以来一直致力于的事情。
And I'm able to hold my, for lack of a better word, attention on things to accomplish tasks in my life and to be present with people, as it were.
而且我能够（找不到更好的词来形容）将注意力集中在事物上，以完成我生活中的任务并与人们在一起。
But I thought-
但我想——
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
No, let's go back a step-
不，让我们退一步——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
...
...
because we both said it was sad.
因为我们都说这很悲伤。
Why is it sad?
为何悲伤？
I'm reconsidering.
我正在重新考虑。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Well-
嗯-
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
That to be able to think of five different things instead of one-
能够想到五种不同的事物而不是一种——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's dreadful
太可怕了
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
...
...
could be an asset.
可能是一种资产。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
It could be an asset.
它可能是一种资产。
I think that for me, what I realize is most of the shoulds are just total lies.
我认为对我来说，我意识到大多数“应该”完全是谎言。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And also they don't-
而且他们也不——
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They're just lies.
它们只是谎言。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They're not actually coming from a sc-- I'm not hearing other people's voices in my head.
它们实际上并不是来自 SC——我脑子里没有听到其他人的声音。
"You should do this." It's not parental narrative or anything.
“你应该这样做。”这不是父母的叙述或任何东西。
It's just contamination of a useless type.
这只是无用类型的污染。
It's not like listening to the radio.
这不像听广播。
I used to listen to the radio while I'd make dinner or something, and it was so pleasant, right?
我过去常常一边做晚饭什么的一边听收音机，那真是太令人愉快了，对吧？
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You hear an evening discussion about the news or a talk show or whatever on the radio while cooking, and so that kind of- "distraction" felt really meaningful.
你在做饭时会听到晚上关于新闻或脱口秀或其他节目的讨论，所以这种“分散注意力”感觉非常有意义。
I felt like when I lived alone, that I had other people in the room with me.
当我独自生活时，我感觉房间里还有其他人和我在一起。
This is different.
这是不同的。
It feels as if it detracts from some essence of the behavior that I'm in, even if the behavior is just getting out of bed in the morning.
感觉好像它损害了我行为的某些本质，即使这种行为只是早上起床。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Wait, so let me be clear.
等等，让我说清楚。
You get out of bed-
你起床——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
...
...
or start to get out of bed, and you have several thoughts.
或者开始起床，你有几个想法。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yep.
是的。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
And those thoughts bother you?
这些想法困扰着你吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Um-
嗯-
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Or they prevent you from getting out of bed?
或者他们阻止你起床？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, but they feel intrusive.
不，但他们感觉很打扰。
They don't feel welcome.
他们感觉不受欢迎。
Because I know what I'm going to do each day.
因为我知道我每天要做什么。
I have a policy for myself of doing one work thing each day, maybe in one or two blocks, and I try and really put everything I have into those.
我为自己制定了一项政策，每天只做一件工作，也许在一两个街区内，我会尝试并真正投入我所拥有的一切。
It's kind of a recent evolution of not trying to do three things in a day.
这是一种最近的演变，不再试图在一天内做三件事。
Maybe it's a function of getting older, but I get so much more satisfaction and get truly so much more done from just doing one thing in my work life each day.
也许这是年龄增长的结果，但每天在工作生活中只做一件事，我就会得到更多的满足感，并真正完成更多的事情。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
I don't even understand the one thing idea.
我什至不明白“一件事”的想法。
You know, that people talk about multitasking-
你知道，人们谈论多任务处理——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
...
...
which is what you're saying, and you're better not to multitask, but you're always multitasking, right?
这就是你所说的，你最好不要同时处理多项任务，但你总是同时处理多项任务，对吧？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
I mean, I'm moving my hands while I'm talking to you, and I'm sort of thinking, and fixing my back in the seat today.
我的意思是，我在和你说话的时候正在移动我的手，我正在思考，今天我把我的背固定在座位上。
There are always lots of things going on.
总是有很多事情发生。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
And I think that also tasks, so let's say you're a kid and you're doing your social studies homework.
我认为这也是任务，所以假设你是一个孩子，你正在做社会研究作业。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
And then you're doing your math homework.
然后你就要做你的数学作业。
And you go back and forth.
然后你来回走动。
So are you multitasking?
那么你是否同时处理多项任务呢？
It depends.
这取决于。
If you see yourself as multitasking, then you're drawing boundaries between your math and your social studies.
如果你认为自己可以同时处理多项任务，那么你就在数学和社会研究之间划定了界限。
If you see yourself as doing homework, it's all part of the same thing.
如果你认为自己正在做作业，那么这都是同一件事的一部分。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
And so there's always a way that the task can be grouped as a single unit, or you can see anything as multitasking.
因此，总有一种方法可以将任务分组为一个单元，或者您可以将任何事情视为多任务处理。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
When you see it as multitasking, you're suggesting to yourself that there's going to be some conflict, there's some reason I'm leaving this to go to this.
当您将其视为多任务处理时，您就向自己暗示将会出现一些冲突，因此我有理由离开这个而继续这个。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, maybe I'm running the script backwards.
好吧，也许我正在向后运行脚本。
Let me put it differently.
让我换个说法。
The level of satisfaction that I feel from having, say, worked on a chapter of my book for a couple of hours-
比如说，我花了几个小时完成书中的一章，所感受到的满足感——
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
or even 45 minutes, or from going for a run without my phone and just enjoying the run, it still blows me away how much I enjoy things that would fall under the category of simple things or-
甚至 45 分钟，或者不带手机去跑步，只是享受跑步，这仍然让我震惊，我是多么喜欢那些属于简单事物类别的事情，或者-
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Sure
当然可以
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
things that I experience in isolation-
我孤立地经历的事情——
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
as compared to how little I enjoy and sometimes reflect on how punishing "multitasking" is.
相比之下，我很少享受“多任务处理”，有时甚至会反思“多任务处理”是多么痛苦。
Like-
就像-
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
It depends on-
这取决于——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Being in a text conversation while I'm walking on the beach.
当我在海滩上散步时正在进行短信对话。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
No, but when you're texting while you're on the beach, probably it's some kind of work text, right?
不，但是当您在海滩上发短信时，可能是某种工作短信，对吗？
There's-
有——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
...
...
something about it, and why are you doing it when you're on the beach?
关于这件事，你为什么在海滩上这样做？
Because I can easily imagine, oh, I'm on the beach.
因为我很容易想象，哦，我在海滩上。
It's wonderful.
太棒了。
Let me text Andrew and say, "Andrew, you're right.
让我给安德鲁发短信说：“安德鲁，你是对的。
This time on the beach is wonderful." And texting wouldn't take away from it.
这次在海滩上的时光真是太棒了。”短信并不能消除它。
My life is much simpler.
我的生活简单多了。
To me, all you have are moments.
对我来说，你所拥有的只是瞬间。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
That's it.
就是这样。
And if you make the moment matter, then the moment matters.
如果你让这一刻变得重要，那么这一刻就很重要。
And you can't make it matter more.
你不能让它变得更重要。
It matters or it doesn't matter.
重要或不重要。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
And so the question, when you're lost doing, or found really, I don't want to say lost when we're writing.
所以问题是，当你在做事时迷失了，或者发现真的，我不想在我们写作时说迷失。
I find myself when I'm writing.
当我写作的时候，我找到了自己。
But when you're engaged in an activity, you're making each of those moments matter.
但当你从事一项活动时，你就会让每一个时刻都变得很重要。
But they should matter as much-- I had this thought that I would help people who were stressed, and I would say to them, okay, so assuming that their vision is reasonable, just thread a needle.
但它们也应该同样重要——我有这样的想法，我会帮助那些有压力的人，我会对他们说，好吧，所以假设他们的愿景是合理的，那就穿针引线吧。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Threading the needle.
穿针。
And then I'd ask them how they felt.
然后我会问他们感觉如何。
And everybody's going to feel fine because you're actively engaged and doing something.
每个人都会感觉良好，因为你积极参与并做某事。
You're not engaged in what people call monkey brain or whatever, worrying about tomorrow, worrying about so on.
你不会陷入人们所谓的猴脑或其他什么的状态，担心明天，担心诸如此类的事情。
So to go back to your three things, it's like the text on the beach is not an I love you text, because I don't see why that would distract you.
回到你的三件事，就像海滩上的文字不是我爱你的文字，因为我不明白为什么这会分散你的注意力。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
I could imagine-
我可以想象——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
...
...
being anywhere doing multiple things-
随时随地做多件事——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
...
...
where I'm sharing what I'm doing-
我正在分享我正在做的事情-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
...
...
but I'm not seeing them, oh, I have to do this work thing.
但我没有看到他们，哦，我必须做这项工作。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
And then the question is, why see the work thing that way?
那么问题来了，为什么要这样看待工作呢？
And especially someone like you, where you don't need any of this anymore anyway.
尤其是像你这样的人，无论如何你都不再需要这些了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, yeah, that's a discussion unto itself.
嗯，是的，这本身就是一个讨论。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
No, but it's important.
不，但这很重要。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, it's true.
是的，这是真的。
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
And so that if it's all fun, it doesn't matter.
因此，如果一切都很有趣，那就没关系。
I was on this panel in Australia.
我是澳大利亚这个小组的成员。
Well, first, each of us gave a talk, some big shots.
嗯，首先，我们每个人都发表了演讲，一些大人物。
And then, unbeknownst to us, they brought us all out.
然后，在我们不知情的情况下，他们把我们都带了出来。
And so we're sitting there, and I'm the last one to be asked, and the question was, "What's on your bucket list?" And so the first person answers, what's on the next person, and we get five.
所以我们坐在那里，我是最后一个被问到的人，问题是，“你的愿望清单上有什么？”所以第一个人回答，下一个人有什么，我们得到五个。
Now it's my turn, so I've had some time to think about this.
现在轮到我了，所以我有时间考虑这个问题。
And my first thought, I don't have a bucket list.
我的第一个想法是，我没有愿望清单。
But of course, you know that I'm going to say, "Well, it's good not to have a bucket list, or else I'd have a bucket list." So then I'm able to say why I don't have a bucket list.
但当然，你知道我会说，“好吧，最好没有遗愿清单，否则我就会有一个遗愿清单。”这样我就可以说出为什么我没有愿望清单了。
If you imagine you're like a glass, and the water is full, or whatever, vodka in this case.
如果你想象你就像一个玻璃杯，水已经满了，或者其他什么，在这种情况下是伏特加。
That it's full, it's full, you can't do more than that.
它已经满了，它已经满了，你不能做更多的事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
And so if the moment is meaningful, you don't have to be writing that book, being in love, on a vacation in Paris- And so I think we have all these crazy notions, even the idea of, and I've talked about this before, work-life balance.
所以，如果这个时刻有意义，你就不必写那本书，恋爱，去巴黎度假——所以我认为我们有所有这些疯狂的想法，甚至是我之前谈到过的工作与生活平衡的想法。
Ooh, that's scary to me.
哦，这对我来说很可怕。
What that says, what life really means is some joy, right?
这就是说，生活真正的意义就是一些快乐，对吧？
Other than just doing work 24/7, or however long people work.
不仅仅是 24/7 工作，或者无论人们工作多长时间。
Not 24/7.
不是 24/7。
What is it?
它是什么？
Three and a half or anyway.
三个半或者无论如何。
It suggests that the work that we're doing has to be aversive, and because it's aversive, the only way to have the good life is to add this fun time, and I think that's sad.
它表明我们正在做的工作必须是令人厌恶的，并且因为它是令人厌恶的，所以拥有美好生活的唯一方法就是增加这种有趣的时间，我认为这是可悲的。
I think it's sad that people think life has to be stressful, that work has to be unpleasant.
我认为人们认为生活一定有压力，工作一定不愉快，这是可悲的。
That no matter what you're doing, I believe there's a way of doing it so that it's fun.
无论你在做什么，我相信总有一种方法可以让它变得有趣。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, I love that notion.
嗯，我喜欢这个想法。
I will routinely find these articles just get served up to me in my Google feed or something.
我经常会发现这些文章只是在我的 Google feed 或其他东西中提供给我。
Like the five things that people regret most on their deathbed.
就像人们临终前最后悔的五件事一样。
I think these lists are terrible.
我认为这些清单很糟糕。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
I do, too.
我也是。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think they're terrible, because without fail, the number one, two, or three is always, "I wish I hadn't worked as much."
我认为它们很糟糕，因为毫无疑问，第一、第二或第三总是“我希望我没有那么努力”。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I've derived tremendous-
我得到了巨大的——
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Me too
我也是
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
pleasure from my work, but also tremendous relationships-
我从工作中得到乐趣，而且还有巨大的关系-
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Sure
当然可以
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
tremendous levels of insight into what I think are insights anyway.
无论如何，对我认为是洞察力的洞察力有着巨大的洞察力。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Well, clear.
嗯，清楚了。
You wouldn't be having the experience now.
你现在不会有这种经历了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, exactly.
是的，完全正确。
Exactly.
确切地。
I'm constantly in pinch me moments-
我总是处于夹缝中的时刻-
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
with the podcast.
与播客。
That was also true when I was running my lab, and then I decided to transition more to this and to other things.
当我运行我的实验室时也是如此，然后我决定更多地转向这个和其他事情。
But this notion that one wishes they'd worked less-
但人们希望自己少工作一点的想法——
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
it's such a sad thing to even think about.
这是一件令人悲伤的事情。
But it also implies that somebody who enjoys their work doesn't enjoy their family or their relationships-
但这也意味着喜欢工作的人并不喜欢他们的家庭或人际关系——
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and that certainly isn't true-
这当然不是真的——
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
either.
要么。
So there are all these assumptions that are written into these lists.
因此，所有这些假设都被写入这些列表中。
I'm actually quite opposed to lists of that sort in a short media article form because I think, A, it clearly doesn't change behavior.
实际上，我非常反对以简短的媒体文章形式列出此类列表，因为我认为，A，它显然不会改变行为。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
People have been talking about drink less.
人们一直在谈论少喝酒。
Well, smoking was eradicated mostly from this country through different mechanisms.
嗯，这个国家的吸烟大部分是通过不同的机制根除的。
But sleep more, stress less.
但多睡觉，少压力。
These lists come out, and they don't change behavior at all.
这些清单一出来，就根本不会改变人们的行为。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Not only that, but even a discussion about, let's say somebody likes sleep, and I find it outrageous.
不仅如此，即使是关于，比方说有人喜欢睡觉的讨论，我也觉得这是令人无法容忍的。
We might even disagree on this here, but when people say, "How much sleep do you need?" Now, to me, if I just ran a marathon, that night, I probably need a different amount of sleep than if I stayed in bed, eating candy, watching movies all day.
我们甚至可能在这一点上存在分歧，但是当人们问“你需要多少睡眠？”时现在，对我来说，如果我只是跑了一场马拉松，那晚我需要的睡眠时间可能与整天躺在床上吃糖果、看电影相比需要不同的睡眠时间。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
And my age, everything-
还有我的年龄，一切——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
...
...
should play a part in this.
应该在这方面发挥作用。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
If I relax in the two or three hours before going to sleep-
如果我在睡觉前的两三个小时放松一下——
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
That's it
就是这样
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
especially if I dim the lights-
尤其是如果我把灯调暗的话-
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I actually require a full two to three hours less of sleep to wake up-
我实际上需要少睡两到三个小时才能醒来-
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
feeling refreshed.
感觉神清气爽。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
My criteria is what does it take to wake up feeling reasonably refreshed?
我的标准是怎样才能醒来时感觉神清气爽？
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
So to go back to the mind-body unity studies, we have a study where we have people in a sleep lab.
回到身心统一研究，我们进行了一项让人们在睡眠实验室进行的研究。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
They wake up and the clock tells them they got two hours more sleep than they actually got, two hours fewer, or the amount of sleep they got.
他们醒来后，时钟告诉他们，他们的睡眠时间比实际多了两个小时，少了两个小时，或者是他们的睡眠时间。
Biological and cognitive functioning follow perceived amount of sleep.
生物和认知功能取决于感知的睡眠量。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
This is such an important study.
这是一项非常重要的研究。
I was going to bring it up later, but I'm so glad you brought it up now.
我原本打算稍后再提出来，但我很高兴你现在提出来。
These days, a tremendous number of people are tracking their sleep.
如今，大量的人正在追踪他们的睡眠。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I do it through my Eight Sleep mattress cover.
我是通过我的八睡床垫套来做到这一点的。
I love getting my sleep score.
我喜欢得到我的睡眠分数。
I like to see what I got.
我喜欢看看我得到了什么。
People do it with the Oura Ring or the Whoop Band or pick your favorite technology nowadays.
人们用 Oura Ring 或 Whoop Band 来做到这一点，或者选择你最喜欢的技术。
Or Apple Watch, whatever.
或者Apple Watch，等等。
If I understand this study correctly, the perception of how much sleep people got based on their knowledge of a number-
如果我正确理解这项研究，人们对睡眠时间的感知是基于他们对数字的了解——
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
a score, et cetera, dictates their-
分数等等决定了他们——
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Exactly
正是如此
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
cognitive performance and their physical wellbeing.
认知表现和身体健康。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This runs countercurrent to everything in the-
这与世界上的一切背道而驰——
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
wellness biohacking-
健康生物黑客-
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
movement.
运动。
It jibes, however, with the data that I'm aware of, I think it was a sleep lab at Stanford, that for instance, positive anticipation of next day events-
然而，根据我所知道的数据，我认为这是斯坦福大学的一个睡眠实验室，例如，对第二天事件的积极预期-
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
reduces your sleep need-
减少您的睡眠需求-
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Mm
毫米
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and improves the quality-
并提高质量-
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
of your sleep.
你的睡眠。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Just being excited for the next day-
只是为了第二天而兴奋——
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
can make it such that the five hours you got-
可以让你得到的五个小时-
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
is sufficient.
就足够了。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
The funniest thing is that if you have to wake up early in the morning to make a flight, okay, so you have to get up at 4:30 in the morning to make a flight, what most people will do is go to sleep early-
最搞笑的是，如果你必须早上起床赶飞机，好吧，那么你必须在凌晨4:30起床赶飞机，大多数人会做的就是早点睡觉——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm
毫米
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
...
...
the night before so they can wake up early.
前一天晚上，这样他们就可以早起。
But they're not going to be able to fall asleep because the amount of sleep they need is dictated by the day before, not the day to come.
但他们将无法入睡，因为他们需要的睡眠量是由前一天决定的，而不是由后一天决定。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, I do think that there was a "I'll sleep when I'm dead" mindset that was diminishing people's health for a while.
嗯，我确实认为，“我死后我会睡觉”的心态在一段时间内损害了人们的健康。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I do think it's great that books like Matt Walker's "Why We Sleep," et cetera, came out, although that book focused more on the bad things that happen if you don't sleep enough.
我确实认为马特·沃克（Matt Walker）的《我们为什么睡觉》等书的问世很棒，尽管那本书更多地关注的是如果你睡眠不足会发生的坏事。
And I think Matt, who's done a series on here about sleep, would now say it's great that we're now focused largely on the things that one can do to get agency over one's sleep.
我认为马特在这里写了一系列关于睡眠的文章，他现在会说，我们现在主要关注人们可以做的事情来获得对睡眠的代理权，这很好。
But I think that there's such a thing as creating a-
但我认为有这样的事情，比如创造一个——
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Problem
问题
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
sleep need anxiety, and then people-
睡眠需要焦虑，然后人们——
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Can't sleep because they're anxious or-
无法入睡，因为他们焦虑或者-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, we're not going to dissolve into a puddle of our own tears-
是的，我们不会化成自己的泪水——
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
on one poor night's sleep.
一晚睡不好。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
No.
不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
But it's also that if you're not sleeping, what is the reason for that?
但如果你不睡觉，那是什么原因呢？
And if you're stressed, obviously it's the stress that's the problem, not the number of hours sleep you're getting.
如果你有压力，显然问题出在压力上，而不是你的睡眠时间。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, I always say if you're going to get less than your typical or required night's sleep, hopefully it's for good reasons.
好吧，我总是说，如果您的睡眠时间低于正常或所需的睡眠时间，希望这是有充分理由的。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hopefully, you're having a good time.
希望您玩得开心。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's when you get the fire alarm in the middle of the night that it becomes, as you said, stressful.
正如您所说，当您在半夜听到火警时，就会感到压力很大。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd like to just- Briefly go back to the counterclockwise study.
我想简单地回到逆时针研究。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Could you describe a little bit more about the practical aspects of that study?
您能否更多地描述一下该研究的实际情况？
So these were people who, let's say, were on average how old?
那么这些人的平均年龄是多少？
Was it somewhere between 30 and 50?
是在 30 到 50 之间吗？
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
No.
不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No?
没有？
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
The counterclockwise?
逆时针？
No, these were people who were 80.
不，这些人已经80岁了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, 80.
哦，80。
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Excuse me.
对不起。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
But also that was when 80 was 80, not the new 60.
但那也是80后的80后，而不是新的60后。
They were old.
他们老了。
In fact, I remember when I was interviewing people to see if they could be in the study.
事实上，我记得当我采访人们，看看他们是否可以参与这项研究时。
So they're down the hall, I'm in my office, and I see them, and they look like they're not going to make it down the hall to the office.
所以他们在大厅里，我在办公室里，我看到了他们，他们看起来好像不会沿着大厅到达办公室。
And I'm saying to myself, "Why am I doing this?" That I'm taking on too much.
我对自己说：“我为什么要这样做？”我承担了太多。
In fact, had I realized all the responsibility at that point that I was actually assuming, I probably wouldn't have done it.
事实上，如果我当时意识到我实际上承担的所有责任，我可能就不会这么做了。
I was in charge of these people's lives, everything about them for this five days without knowing these people, without a full medical support system or whatever.
在这五天里，我负责这些人的生活，他们的一切，但我并不认识这些人，也没有完整的医疗支持系统或其他什么。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
If one or two of them had died, you could end up in a mess.
如果他们中的一两个死了，你就会陷入混乱。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
So I was fortunate that none of that happened.
所以我很幸运，这一切都没有发生。
But no, so they were old.
但不，所以他们老了。
And it was interesting because they show up, and they look really-- Now it'd probably be somebody 105.
这很有趣，因为他们出现了，而且看起来真的——现在可能是某个 105 号的人。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wow.
哇。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
That's the way they presented.
这就是他们呈现的方式。
And you'd speak to the person, and usually the adult daughter would do the answering rather than...
你会和这个人说话，通常是成年女儿会回答而不是......
So they were coddled, they were presumed to have all sorts of problems and so on.
所以他们被宠坏了，他们被认为有各种各样的问题等等。
Almost instantly when they got there, they changed.
当他们到达那里时，他们几乎立刻就变了。
The feeling was almost palpable.
这种感觉几乎是显而易见的。
Now, I did this thing, it wasn't good science.
现在，我做了这件事，这不是好的科学。
So the first group that we took there was the reminiscent group.
所以我们带去的第一组是回忆组。
This was a group where they were going to reminisce for that week.
他们将在这个小组中回忆那一周的经历。
So they always knew now was now and then was then, right?
所以他们总是知道现在就是现在，过去就是过去，对吗？
That was a control group.
那是对照组。
We get to the retreat, and I'm in this van-- Oh, people need to understand, the study was back before Google, before we had the internet.
我们到达静修处，我在这辆货车里——哦，人们需要明白，这项研究是在谷歌出现之前、在我们拥有互联网之前进行的。
So when I am playing music in the van going to the event, music from the past, this was a major thing to find this.
所以当我在去参加活动的车里播放音乐时，过去的音乐，这是发现这一点的一件大事。
Now it takes two minutes.
现在需要两分钟。
You ask Chad lately, "Give me the 10 best songs back 20 years ago." At any rate, so I'm on the bus with them, music from the past playing.
你最近问查德，“给我 20 年前最好的 10 首歌曲。”无论如何，我和他们一起在公共汽车上，播放着过去的音乐。
We get very close to the retreat, and all of a sudden I realize that, I was sexist at the time, oblivious, that none of my male graduate students were with me.
我们离静修会很近了，突然我意识到，我当时是性别歧视者，没有注意到我的男研究生没有和我在一起。
That meant I had seven old men and at least seven heavy suitcases.
这意味着我有七个老人和至少七个沉重的手提箱。
There was no way that I was going to carry their suitcases upstairs.
我不可能把他们的行李箱搬上楼。
So, unplanned for, we get off the bus, and I say, "You're in charge of your own suitcase.
所以，出乎意料的是，我们下了车，我说：“你自己负责你的手提箱。
I don't care if you move it an inch at a time to get it to your room, or you unpack it here a shirt at a time.
我不在乎你是否一次将它移动一英寸以将其送到你的房间，或者你一次将它拆开一件衬衫。
However you want to do it." Now imagine nothing else, the difference between somebody who's coddled, who's not even thought to be able to respond to a question, where the daughter or son would answer for them, to now they're in charge of their whole lives.
不管怎样，你想这么做。”现在别想像其他人了，一个被溺爱的人，一个甚至不被认为能够回答问题的人，女儿或儿子会为他们回答的人，与现在他们掌控自己一生的人之间的区别。
And that meant that even the comparison group was going to do well, which they did, just not quite as well as the other group.
这意味着即使是对照组也会做得很好，他们确实做到了，只是不如另一组。
And for me, that was fine because, as you mentioned before, my work is all about possibility.
对我来说，这很好，因为正如你之前提到的，我的工作就是关于可能性。
I'm not interested in describing what is.
我对描述是什么不感兴趣。
I'm interested in seeing what may be.
我有兴趣看看可能是什么。
So if I got one monkey to say, "Hey, Ellen, that's nonsense," that would be fine if we couldn't train the rest of them.
因此，如果我让一只猴子说：“嘿，艾伦，那是胡说八道”，如果我们不能训练其余的猴子，那也没关系。
But it would lead us to different views of language.
但这会导致我们对语言产生不同的看法。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I love this approach to science of seeing what may be.
我喜欢这种观察可能发生的科学方法。
I have to say, there's this little script running in the back of my mind, and now I'm not going to judge it.
我不得不说，这个小剧本在我的脑海里运行，现在我不打算评判它。
The sorts of experiments and the general line of inquiry that you've been involved in for some time now, to me, runs countercurrent to my perception of, I'm just going to be honest because I'm a West Coast guy, the Harvard campus and the idea that science is done in a particular way.
对我来说，你已经参与了一段时间的各种实验和一般的调查路线与我的看法背道而驰，我只是说实话，因为我是西海岸人，哈佛校园以及科学是以特定方式完成的想法。
A very brief anecdote.
一个非常简短的轶事。
The folks that founded the Esalen Institute in Big Sur were at Stanford at one point.
在大苏尔创立伊莎伦研究所的人曾经在斯坦福大学工作。
They weren't professors, but there's a story, and I believe the story, that they had proposed at that time a class on mindfulness and breathing to bring Stan Graf through and some other people.
他们不是教授，但有一个故事，我相信这个故事，他们当时提议开设一门关于正念和呼吸的课程，以帮助斯坦·格拉夫和其他一些人度过难关。
And this was probably the late '70s, early '80s.
这可能是 70 年代末、80 年代初。
And whatever the cultural norms were at Stanford at that time, they claim they were basically run off campus and went and started Esalen.
不管当时斯坦福大学的文化规范是什么，他们声称他们基本上是在校园之外创办了伊莎兰。
I don't know if it's a true story-
不知道是不是真实的故事
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
No
否
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
but I like the story anyway.
但无论如何我喜欢这个故事。
My lab at Stanford ran a study on particular patterns of breathing, along with David Spiegel, and how it can be used to self-adjust stress levels and reduce stress levels.
我在斯坦福大学的实验室与大卫·斯皮格尔（David Spiegel）一起进行了一项关于特定呼吸模式的研究，以及如何利用它来自我调节压力水平和降低压力水平。
Okay, and nowadays, there's grants given for this kind of stuff-
好吧，现在，这类事情都有拨款——
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and meditation.
和冥想。
So there's been a huge shift in the academic cultural milieu.
因此，学术文化环境发生了巨大的转变。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But given that you've been seeing what may be types of studies for a number of years at a campus that I consider is more kind of like East Coast dyed-in-the-wool notions of how science is done-
但考虑到你多年来一直在校园里看到什么类型的研究，我认为这更像是东海岸关于科学如何进行的彻底的概念——
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I want to know, A, how was it received early on?
我想知道，A，早期收到的怎么样？
B, did you care?
B，你关心吗？
C Is it in your nature, and has it always been in your nature to kind of test the elements?
C 测试元素是你的本性吗？你的本性一直都是这样吗？
Because I sense, but I could be completely wrong because I'm not a psychologist, that-
因为我感觉到，但我可能完全错了，因为我不是心理学家，那-
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
I'm an iconic class?
我是一个标志性的班级吗？
No
否
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that you delight in kind of not poking the bear, but playing with ideas that are kind of heretical.
你不喜欢戳熊，而是喜欢玩弄异端的想法。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Well, I would use the methods of the field.
好吧，我会使用该领域的方法。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
It was just the questions that were different.
只是问题不同而已。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
So they weren't seen to be quite as different as you're suggesting.
所以他们并没有被认为像你所建议的那么不同。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Did any of your colleagues think like-
你的同事有没有这样想——
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
No.
不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Great.
太棒了。
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
No.
不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I love hearing that.
我喜欢听这个。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
But, you know-
但是，你知道——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because it shatters my notions-
因为它打破了我的观念——
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
of kind of, East Coast Ivy League academia.
东海岸常春藤盟校学术界。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
No, they didn't to me.
不，他们没有对我这么做。
I mean, perhaps behind my back, but-
我的意思是，也许在我背后，但是-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, clearly it's worked out.
嗯，显然已经解决了。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And nowadays-
而如今——
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
there are multiple labs at Harvard working on happiness, you know-
哈佛大学有多个实验室致力于幸福，你知道——
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
working on mindfulness-
致力于正念——
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and I mean, you've pioneered an entire field-
我的意思是，你开创了整个领域——
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in a way.
在某种程度上。
But I'm more interested in the way of thinking, that was the-
但我更感兴趣的是思维方式，那就是——
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Well, so it's interesting-
嗯，所以这很有趣——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Was the-
是——
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
So, okay
那么，好吧
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
eight-year-old Ellen Langer-
八岁的艾伦·兰格——
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
like, "Well, maybe cookies are the-
就像，“好吧，也许饼干是——
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
are the nutritious stuff," you know?
都是有营养的东西，”你知道吗？
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
No, I understand.
不，我明白。
So I seem to be, come hell or high water, I'm going to do it.
所以我觉得，无论风雨无阻，我都会这么做。
I'm not like that at all.
我根本不是那样的人。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Interesting.
有趣。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
More now that I'm older.
现在我年纪大了，更多了。
But I tell a story, I don't remember what the exact point was, in "The Mindful Body" where I'm at the dentist.
但我讲了一个故事，我不记得在“正念的身体”中我去看牙医的确切要点是什么。
I'm a little kid.
我是个小孩子。
I don't remember how old.
我不记得几岁了。
And I remember my mother came in, and the dentist told my mother what a good patient I was.
我记得我妈妈进来了，牙医告诉我妈妈我是一个多么好的病人。
And all I remember was my saying, "What were the other kids doing?" You know?
我只记得我说：“其他孩子在做什么？”你知道？
So it wasn't as if I made a choice.
所以我并没有做出选择。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, wow.
哦，哇。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
I could do this, or I could do...
我可以这样做，或者我可以...
It never occurred to me.
我从来没有想到过。
And so lots of these ideas are not against or what.
所以很多这些想法并不反对或什么。
I don't know where they come from.
我不知道他们从哪里来。
I know Lee Ross when, so Lee was a professor at Stanford, and I remember having a conversation where he said, "Ellen, you're from Mars." And I said, "I'm not so different." He says, "Okay, so you're a normal, not an exceptional Martian, but you're still a Martian." And then a colleague had a conversation with so-- And I was flattered by this, but I think it wasn't meant to be flattering because they were worried what my reaction was.
我认识李·罗斯的时候，李是斯坦福大学的一名教授，我记得有一次谈话中他说：“艾伦，你来自火星。”我说：“我并没有那么不同。”他说：“好吧，所以你是一个正常的火星人，不是一个特殊的火星人，但你仍然是一个火星人。”然后一位同事与这样的人进行了交谈，我对此感到受宠若惊，但我认为这并不是受宠若惊，因为他们担心我的反应。
Was that I'm from a different time, and so that plays differently if you're aware.
是因为我来自不同的时代，所以如果你意识到的话，情况会有所不同。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
So like when I started painting, I was breaking the rules to some people's minds.
就像我开始绘画时一样，我打破了一些人的思维规则。
But no, I didn't know the rule.
但不，我不知道规则。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
And so I was just doing what felt natural.
所以我只是做感觉自然的事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Well, I have to introduce you to my good friend Rick Rubin, who's been on this podcast a few times because he wrote "The Creative Act." He's basically, his life has been spent trying to pull out the best creative works from musicians and he's been involved-
好吧，我必须向您介绍我的好朋友 Rick Rubin，他曾多次出现在这个播客上，因为他写了“The Creative Act”。基本上，他的一生都在努力从音乐家那里提取出最好的创意作品，而他也参与其中——
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in other things, too.
在其他事情上也是如此。
And he just has a kind of supernatural level of ability to do this, and he keeps coming back to this thing in our discussions, but also in his book and elsewhere about how the greatest impediment to the creative process is to think about the publicity or cultural milieu-
他只是有一种超自然的能力来做到这一点，他在我们的讨论中不断地回到这件事上，而且在他的书和其他地方也谈到了创作过程的最大障碍是如何考虑宣传或文化环境——
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Mm
毫米
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that it's going to exist in.
它将存在于.
That he really believes that these things are-
他真的相信这些东西是——
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Well
嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
offerings-
供品-
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
to God, to the universe, to whatever, that come through us, and that the barrier is, it's almost like the self-awareness is the barrier.
对于上帝，对于宇宙，对于任何通过我们而来的事物，障碍就是，这几乎就像自我意识就是障碍。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So, one of the earlier titles of "The Mindful Body" was Who Says So?
所以，《正念身体》的早期标题之一是《谁这么说？》
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Love it.
喜欢它。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
And realizing that everything that is was at one point a decision-
并意识到一切都在某个时刻是一个决定——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
...
...
made by people with different motives-
由怀有不同动机的人们所创造——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
...
...
different histories-
不同的历史——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
...
...
different needs.
不同的需求。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
And, when you put people, as I say, back in the equation, everything becomes mutable.
而且，正如我所说，当你将人重新纳入考虑范围时，一切都变得不稳定。
Everything.
一切。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
And so here's where I am different from many other people, for better or worse, I think in this case for better, that everything can be changed.
所以这就是我与许多其他人不同的地方，无论好坏，我认为在这种情况下更好，一切都可以改变。
You tell me you meet this woman and she's too heavy.
你告诉我你遇到了这个女人，她太重了。
Weight can be lost, hair can be grown , everything can be changed.
体重可以减轻，头发可以长出，一切都可以改变。
So I give a talk when I was very young, and I'm here on the stage, and the audience is all the way back here.
所以我很小的时候就做过一次演讲，我在舞台上，观众们都回到这里。
And I knew that was going to make me nervous.
我知道这会让我紧张。
So what I did was move all the chairs to be closer to me.
所以我所做的就是把所有的椅子移到离我更近的地方。
Now, if you said to anybody, "Can you move the chairs?" Everybody would say, "Of course." But mindlessly, it doesn't occur to you.
现在，如果你对任何人说：“你能搬动椅子吗？”每个人都会说：“当然。”但无意识地，你不会想到这一点。
It doesn't occur to you that what is doesn't have to be as it is.
你没有想到，现状不一定是它本来的样子。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
And the older I get, the more malleable everything seems to be.
随着年龄的增长，一切似乎都变得更具可塑性。
Even a thing, to go back to, I don't know why this comes to mind, but it does.
即使是一件事，回到过去，我不知道为什么会想到这个，但确实如此。
If an insurance company is making a decision about what drugs to insure.
如果保险公司正在决定承保哪些药物。
Now, who said that this disorder is better or more worthy than that disorder?
现在，谁说这种疾病比那种疾病更好或更有价值呢？
I say, so these are people making this decision.
我说，所以这些是做出这个决定的人。
So imagine that you have a group of nuns, they are the committee making the decision, versus a group of lusty 50-year-old men, and they're deciding whether people should be reimbursed for Viagra, for example.
因此，想象一下，你有一群修女，她们是做出决定的委员会，而不是一群精力充沛的 50 岁男人，她们正在决定人们是否应该报销伟哥等费用。
And that's what it's all about.
这就是全部内容。
That when you recognize that whatever is could be different, as meetings-- And I deal with this when I give lectures.
当你认识到无论什么事情都可能会有所不同，就像会议一样——我在演讲时会处理这个问题。
At some point I might say, look in the audience and see if there's usually a man.
在某些时候我可能会说，看看观众席中是否通常有一个男人。
"Is there a man here who's about 6'5"?" Somebody always there.
“这里有一个大约 6 英尺 5 英寸的男人吗？”总有人在那里。
I don't know why 6'5" men find me attractive.
我不知道为什么 6 英尺 5 英寸的男人觉得我有吸引力。
I don't know why.
我不知道为什么。
Anyway, I invite him to the stage, and then we look ridiculous.
不管怎样，我邀请他上台，然后我们看起来很可笑。
I'm 5'3", he's 6'5".
我身高 5 英尺 3 英寸，他身高 6 英尺 5 英寸。
And, I ask him to put his hand in.
而且，我请他把手伸进去。
Puts his hand up.
举起手来。
His hand is three inches larger than mine.
他的手比我的大三英寸。
And then I just raise the question, should we do anything physical the same?
然后我提出一个问题，我们是否应该做一些同样的身体活动？
And it's ridiculous.
这很荒谬。
But one of us is teaching how to do it.
但我们中的一个人正在教如何做到这一点。
So the more different you are from the person who wrote the rule, the more important it is for you not to mindlessly follow the rule.
因此，你与制定规则的人越不同，你就越不能盲目地遵守规则。
So you don't hold the tennis racket like this if your hand is half the size of the person who, or twice the size or anything else.
因此，如果你的手只有人的一半大小，或者两倍大小或其他任何东西，你就不会像这样握住网球拍。
And people don't realize it, that everything that is was a decision.
人们没有意识到，一切都是一个决定。
For something to be a decision means there was uncertainty.
对于某件事来说，做出决定就意味着存在不确定性。
As soon as the decision is made, we forget all that uncertainty and act as if this is the way it's supposed to be.
一旦做出决定，我们就会忘记所有的不确定性，并表现得好像事情本来就是这样的。
An example I often use, tennis.
我经常举一个例子，网球。
And everybody, when you think about this, nobody's going to argue that, of course, the rules to tennis weren't handed down from the heavens.
每个人，当你想到这一点时，没有人会争辩说，网球规则当然不是从天上下来的。
Somebody decided it should be two serves, and that's fine.
有人认为应该是两次发球，这很好。
But for me, three serves would be better.
但对我来说，三份会更好。
The first time I kill it, doesn't go in.
第一次杀的时候进不去
Now I'm afraid to try to kill it again and learn from that because I don't want to double fault.
现在我害怕再次尝试杀死它并从中吸取教训，因为我不想犯双重错误。
So I have a little wuss second serve.
所以我的二发有点糟糕。
If I had three serves, I kill it, it doesn't go in.
如果我发了三球，我就把它杀掉，它不会进。
Now I learn from it, I kill it again, but I'm getting a little better, and I still have my backup third serve.
现在我从中吸取了教训，我再次击杀了它，但我已经好一点了，而且我仍然有我的备用三发。
All right, so what is the point of that?
好吧，那么这有什么意义呢？
That if I wrote the rules to the game, I would be a better tennis player.
如果我为比赛制定规则，我就会成为一名更好的网球运动员。
You would be better at whatever you're writing the rules to.
无论你编写规则的内容是什么，你都会做得更好。
So you think differently about yourself.
所以你对自己的看法不同。
You don't feel bad about it.
你不会为此感到难过。
In fact, when people play tennis with me, we often play three serves.
事实上，当人们和我一起打网球时，我们经常打三发球。
Why not?
为什么不呢？
Everything about it is up for grabs.
关于它的一切都可以争夺。
And so what happens is the lower down you are on the totem pole, the fewer of these things, games, ways of being that you yourself have created, the more you're trying to fit yourself into some form that isn't so comfortable.
因此，你在图腾柱上的位置越低，你自己创造的这些东西、游戏和生活方式就越少，你就越试图让自己适应某种不太舒服的形式。
So we need to appreciate that rules, laws, everything was just somebody's decision about how things should be.
所以我们需要认识到，规则、法律、一切都只是某人关于事情应该如何发展的决定。
And don't violate them purposely, but if they don't fit, legality is not the same thing as morality.
并且不要故意违反它们，但如果它们不符合，合法性就不是道德了。
By law, one was not allowed interracial marriage.
根据法律，不允许异族通婚。
By law, one was not allowed to be gay.
根据法律，一个人不可以是同性恋。
By law, so on and so forth, one wasn't allowed to drink at one point, and so on.
根据法律等等，一个人在某一时刻是不允许喝酒的，等等。
These are not moral issues.
这些不是道德问题。
These are a group of people who are making a decision for the rest of us.
这些人正在为我们其他人做出决定。
If it doesn't hurt, fine.
如果不疼的话就好了
But if it does, fight it, deviate, at least live the life you want to live.
但如果确实如此，那就反抗、偏离，至少过上你想要的生活。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, Function.
我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商之一 Function。
Last year, I became a Function member after searching for the most comprehensive approach to lab testing.
去年，在寻找最全面的实验室测试方法后，我成为了 Function 成员。
Function provides over 100 advanced lab tests that give you a key snapshot of your entire bodily health.
Function 提供 100 多项高级实验室测试，为您提供整个身体健康状况的关键快照。
This snapshot offers you with insights on your heart health, hormone health, immune functioning, nutrient levels, and much more.
此快照为您提供有关心脏健康、激素健康、免疫功能、营养水平等方面的见解。
They've also recently added tests for toxins, such as BPA exposure from harmful plastics, and tests for PFAS, or forever chemicals.
他们最近还增加了毒素测试，例如有害塑料中的 BPA 暴露，以及 PFAS 或永久化学物质的测试。
Function not only provides testing of over 100 biomarkers key to your physical and mental health, but it also analyzes these results and provides insights from top doctors who are expert in the relevant areas.
Function 不仅提供对您的身心健康至关重要的 100 多种生物标记物的测试，而且还分析这些结果并提供相关领域专家的顶级医生的见解。
For example, in one of my first tests with Function, I learned that I had elevated levels of mercury in my blood.
例如，在我第一次使用 Function 进行测试时，我发现我的血液中汞含量升高。
Function not only helped me detect that but offered insights into how best to reduce my mercury levels, which included limiting my tuna consumption, I'd been eating a lot of tuna, while also making an effort to eat more leafy greens and supplementing with NAC, N-acetylcysteine, both of which can support glutathione production and detoxification.
功能不仅帮助我发现了这一点，还提供了如何最好地降低汞含量的见解，其中包括限制我的金枪鱼消费，我一直在吃大量金枪鱼，同时还努力多吃绿叶蔬菜并补充 NAC、N-乙酰半胱氨酸，这两者都可以支持谷胱甘肽的产生和解毒。
And I should say, by taking a second Function test, that approach worked.
我应该说，通过进行第二次功能测试，这种方法奏效了。
Comprehensive blood testing is vitally important.
全面的血液检测至关重要。
There are so many things related to your mental and physical health that can only be detected in a blood test.
有很多与您的心理和身体健康相关的事情只能通过血液检查来检测。
The problem is blood testing has always been very expensive and complicated.
问题是血液检测一直非常昂贵且复杂。
In contrast, I've been super impressed by Function's simplicity and at the level of cost.
相比之下，Function 的简单性和成本水平给我留下了深刻的印象。
It is very affordable.
这是非常实惠的。
As a consequence, I decided to join their scientific advisory board, and I'm thrilled that they're sponsoring the podcast.
因此，我决定加入他们的科学顾问委员会，我很高兴他们赞助了这个播客。
If you'd like to try Function, you can go to functionhealth.com/huberman.
如果您想尝试 Function，可以访问 functionhealth.com/huberman。
Function currently has a wait list of over 250,000 people, but they're offering early access to Huberman Podcast listeners.
Function 目前有超过 250,000 人的等候名单，但他们正在为 Huberman 播客听众提供早期访问服务。
Again, that's functionhealth.com/huberman to get early access to Function.
同样，可以通过 functionhealth.com/huberman 提前访问 Function。
I feel like one of the major detriments to living the way that you're describing, which by the way, has tremendous gravitational pull in my mind.
我觉得按照你所描述的方式生活的主要危害之一，顺便说一句，这在我的脑海中具有巨大的引力。
It's such a better way to go through life, right?
这是一种更好的生活方式，对吗？
And I subscribe also to this notion that pretty much everything was made up besides the laws of nature.
我也同意这样的观点：除了自然法则之外，几乎所有事物都是虚构的。
Right?
正确的？
To me, physics is real and-
对我来说，物理是真实的并且——
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Okay
好的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
chemistry is real.
化学是真实的。
Biology is real.
生物学是真实的。
It gets tricky because-
这变得很棘手，因为——
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
They're all real, but it's our understanding of them that varies.
它们都是真实的，但我们对它们的理解有所不同。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
So we haven't worked out all of physics yet-
所以我们还没有弄清楚所有的物理知识-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sure
当然可以
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
...
...
or biology or any of these other things, so I don't think that we should set these aside and say, "Those rules we should follow come hell or high water."
或生物学或任何其他事物，所以我认为我们不应该把这些放在一边并说：“我们应该遵循的规则无论是地狱还是高潮。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Seeing what may be-- I could say, listen, because of the laws of gravity, objects fall down, not up.
看看可能会发生什么——我可以说，听着，由于万有引力定律，物体会下落，而不是向上。
But of course, there are-
但当然，还有——
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
But yes
但是是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
we could create exceptions to that.
我们可以为此创造例外。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But that humans make up all sorts of rules.
但人类制定了各种各样的规则。
Culture dictates-
文化决定——
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
groupthink dictates.
群体思维决定了。
And it seems that one of the major detriments to living in this freer way, this more exploratory way that we're talking about today, is this whole thing of theory of mind.
我们今天讨论的这种更自由、更具探索性的生活方式的主要危害之一似乎就是整个心理理论。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That we are able, for better or worse, to get into the minds of others, and in some cases, create ideas, true or not, about how we will be judged if we do A, B, or C.
无论好坏，我们都能够了解他人的想法，并且在某些情况下，能够创造出一些想法，无论真假，如果我们做了 A、B 或 C，我们将如何评判。
And in doing so-
在这样做的过程中——
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Oh
噢
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
we give up some real estate.
我们放弃一些房地产。
We give up some-
我们放弃一些——
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Okay, so that's perfect-
好吧，那就完美了——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
...
...
Andrew, because We think we know, but are oblivious to the fact that everything, it's a big statement, behavior can be understood in equal dimensions, equal potency as good or bad.
安德鲁，因为我们认为我们知道，但忽视了这样一个事实：一切，这是一个大的陈述，行为可以在相同的维度、相同的效力（好或坏）中被理解。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Now, so that I can control what you're thinking.
现在，这样我就可以控制你的想法了。
So you think that I'm gullible.
所以你认为我很容易受骗。
You could persuade me that I'm gullible.
你可以让我相信我很容易受骗。
I can try my hardest not to be gullible, but I'm going to eventually be gullible.
我可以尽我最大的努力不被骗，但我最终还是会被骗。
And the reason for that is that I value being trusting.
原因是我重视信任。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
And as long as I value being trusting, I'm going to be seen as gullible.
只要我重视信任，我就会被视为容易上当受骗。
As long as you value being flexible, you're going to be inconsistent.
只要你重视灵活性，你就会前后矛盾。
As long as you value being stable, you're going to be seen as boring, and so on.
只要你重视稳定，你就会被视为无聊，等等。
And so this is what I said to you before in different terms, that with all that I've studied, found interesting over all these decades, the thing that meant the most to me was the realization that behavior makes sense from the actor's perspective, or the actor wouldn't do it.
这就是我之前用不同的术语对你们说的，这几十年来我研究过的所有东西都很有趣，对我来说最重要的是认识到从演员的角度来看，行为是有意义的，否则演员就不会这样做。
Now, if you think about that, that means every single time you're demeaning somebody or yourself, or you're coming up with a New Year's resolution, what you're doing is denying the sense of what you were doing and saying, "Oh, you should have done something different." Okay.
现在，如果你想一想，这意味着每次你贬低某人或你自己，或者你想出一个新年决心时，你所做的就是否认你所做的事情的意义，并说，“哦，你应该做一些不同的事情。”好的。
Once you realize that your behavior makes sense, you like yourself more when you're realizing that in any relationship, anything that's difficult is difficult because one of you thinks there's a right way and is denying the other person's perspective.
一旦你意识到自己的行为是有道理的，当你意识到在任何关系中，任何困难都是困难的，因为你们中的一个人认为有正确的方法并否认另一个人的观点时，你就会更喜欢自己。
We did this thing so many years ago.
我们很多年前就做过这件事。
I gave people a list of, I don't remember, it was 200 or 300 behavior descriptions, and said, "Circle those things about yourself that you keep trying to change, but you keep failing at." So for me, I'd circle impulsive, gullible.
我给了人们一份清单，我不记得了，有 200 或 300 种行为描述，然后说，“圈出那些关于你自己的、你一直试图改变但总是失败的事情。”所以对我来说，我会冲动、容易上当受骗。
I won't tell you the rest.
剩下的我不会告诉你。
Okay.
好的。
Then you turn the page over and in a mixed-up random order are the positive versions of each of these.
然后你翻过这一页，就会以一种混合的随机顺序排列出每一个的正面版本。
Now people are asked, circle those things you really value about yourself, my spontaneity and my being trusting.
现在人们被要求圈出那些你真正看重自己的东西，我的自发性和我的信任。
And as long as I value being spontaneous, I'm going to appear impulsive, and so on.
只要我重视自发性，我就会显得冲动，等等。
And so now that I have more respect for myself because what I did made sense, I carry myself differently.
现在我对自己更加尊重，因为我所做的事情是有意义的，我以不同的方式对待自己。
I'm not doing what you were just suggesting before, where I'm tormenting myself and so on.
我没有做你之前建议的那样，我在折磨自己等等。
And the people I'm with-- There's a lot in "The Mindful Body" that deals with language and only a fraction of the sensitivity I seem to have to language in a different way from the way linguists would study it.
和我在一起的人——《正念身体》中有很多内容涉及语言，而我似乎对语言的敏感性只有一小部分，与语言学家研究语言的方式不同。
But you have things, let's say forgiveness.
但你有事情，比如说宽恕。
We have all these terms that seem good, and you know because you've figured me out now that if you say it's good, I'm going to find a way it's bad.
我们有所有这些看起来不错的术语，你知道，因为你现在已经明白了，如果你说它很好，我就会找到一种它很糟糕的方法。
If you say it's bad, I'm going to-- Good.
如果你说不好，我就——好。
Okay, so this is one of those.
好的，这就是其中之一。
I don't want anybody, certainly not the person closest to me, to ever forgive me.
我不希望任何人，当然不是我最亲近的人，原谅我。
I want to be understood.
我想要被理解。
And if you understand, there's no reason to forgive me because my behavior will make sense, or else I wouldn't do it.
如果你明白的话，就没有理由原谅我，因为我的行为是有意义的，否则我不会这样做。
Okay.
好的。
So how did this come about?
那么这是怎么发生的呢？
I was asked to give a sermon.
我被邀请去布道。
I'm Jewish, I have to go to this church because I say yes to everything, and I'm going to give a sermon.
我是犹太人，我必须去这座教堂，因为我对一切都说“是”，而且我要布道。
What am I going to talk about?
我要谈什么？
I know nothing about religion.
我对宗教一无所知。
What am I talking about?
我在说什么？
Forgiveness.
饶恕。
It's not religion, but it sounds religiousy.
这不是宗教，但听起来很宗教。
All right, I'll think about forgiveness.
好吧，我会考虑原谅。
So I think about forgiveness, and what I came up with was sacrilegious, some would think.
所以我想到了宽恕，有些人会认为我的想法是亵渎的。
If you ask 10 people, is forgiveness good or bad, what are they going to tell you?
如果你问 10 个人，宽恕是好是坏，他们会告诉你什么？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They're going to tell you it's good.
他们会告诉你这很好。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
It's good.
很好。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
If you ask 10 people, is blame good or bad, what are they going to say?
如果你问 10 个人，责备是好事还是坏事，他们会怎么说？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They're going to say bad.
他们会说不好。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
It's bad.
这很糟糕。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
But you can't forgive unless you first blame.
但除非你先责怪，否则你无法原谅。
So our forgivers are our blamers.
所以我们的宽恕者也是我们的责备者。
That's interesting.
那很有意思。
Now, do you blame people for good things or bad things?
现在，你会因为好事还是坏事而责怪别人吗？
You blame people for bad things, but things in and of themselves aren't good or bad.
你责备别人做坏事，但事情本身并没有好坏之分。
So what happens is the people who see the world negatively, who blame, then forgive, hardly divine.
因此，所发生的事情就是那些消极地看待世界的人，他们先责备，然后原谅，几乎不神圣。
Now, if you blame, it's better to forgive than not forgive.
现在，如果你责怪，原谅比不原谅要好。
But if you understand why the person did what they did, it obviates the necessity for blame, which then obviates the necessity for forgiveness.
但如果你理解这个人为什么这么做，就消除了责备的必要性，也就消除了宽恕的必要性。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd love to bypass blame.
我很想避开责备。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Well, I think that's the way to do it, is to recognize in a more open-minded way, the motivations that people have vary, the consequences.
嗯，我认为这就是做到这一点的方法，是以一种更开放的方式认识到人们的动机和后果各不相同。
No matter what you do, whatever negative thing it seems, positive things will follow if you allow them and you look at it that way.
无论你做什么，无论看起来有什么消极的事情，如果你允许它们并且你以这种方式看待它，积极的事情就会随之而来。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Can I ask you to-
我可以请你-
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
No. Oh, that's right, it's your podcast.
不，哦，没错，这是你的播客。
Yes, you can.
是的，你可以。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's definitely not my podcast.
这绝对不是我的播客。
We're here together.
我们在一起。
Could I ask you for any reflections that come up around this recent thought train I was on?
我可以问你对我最近的想法有什么看法吗？
I was laughing at the fact that our species, for whatever reason, seems to keep wanting to build technologies, and that much of our effort these days is focused on trying to undo some of the ills of the technologies that we've developed.
我嘲笑这样一个事实：无论出于何种原因，我们的物种似乎一直想要开发技术，而我们这些天的大部分努力都集中在试图消除我们所开发的技术的一些弊病上。
So I use smartphones, and I love them, and I use social media, and I think it's terrific for certain things.
所以我使用智能手机，我喜欢它们，我使用社交媒体，我认为它对于某些事情来说非常棒。
But of course, these things have issues, just like the automobile created issues, the television created issues-
但当然，这些东西都有问题，就像汽车产生问题、电视产生问题一样——
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and on and on.
等等。
Okay.
好的。
Fossil fuels and all of this.
化石燃料等等。
People would debate fossil fuels, but anyway, you get the point.
人们会争论化石燃料，但无论如何，你明白了。
Every technology brings with it some convenience or some way that humans have been able to overcome nature in some way or work with nature.
每项技术都带来了一些便利或某种方式，使人类能够以某种方式克服自然或与自然合作。
We can't fly, so we build planes.
我们不会飞，所以我们造飞机。
Okay.
好的。
And I just decided to look at this through a different lens.
我只是决定从不同的角度来看待这个问题。
This is amazing.
这太棒了。
We're sending rockets into space.
我们正在将火箭送入太空。
We'll probably colonize Mars not too long from now if Elon figures it out, and I get the sense that he probably will.
如果埃隆想出来的话，我们可能会在不久之后殖民火星，而且我感觉他可能会的。
We got AI just this last week.
上周我们就得到了人工智能。
There's this whole-
整个是这样的——
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Chinese thing.
中国的东西。
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
AI thing.
人工智能的事情。
And so then I started thinking, at what point do we just stop?
然后我开始思考，我们什么时候停止？
And the answer is pretty clear.
答案很清楚。
It's unlikely that humans are ever going to stop this itch to develop technology.
人类不可能停止这种开发技术的渴望。
And I thought, wow, we're the only species that does this.
我想，哇，我们是唯一能做到这一点的物种。
If the raccoons get together and they think, "Okay, let's figure out how to pick locks." Actually how to pick locks-
如果浣熊聚集在一起，他们会想：“好吧，让我们想想如何撬锁。”其实如何开锁——
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Mm
毫米
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
as opposed to just go in through crawl spaces.
而不是仅仅通过狭窄的空间进入。
If they've been working on that, they're still failing miserably, as far as I know.
据我所知，即使他们一直在努力做到这一点，他们仍然会惨败。
So it's something so unique to our species, among the old world primates, to develop technologies.
因此，在旧世界的灵长类动物中，开发技术对于我们这个物种来说是非常独特的。
Other animals do it.
其他动物也会这么做。
Crows do it, other primates do it, but we are really the utmost example of this.
乌鸦这样做，其他灵长类动物也这样做，但我们确实是最好的例子。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I just wonder, what do you think the human compulsion is to develop technologies?
我只是想知道，您认为人类开发技术的冲动是什么？
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
I don't think there's a compulsion to develop anything in particular.
我不认为有必要开发任何特定的东西。
I think there's a compulsion to develop.
我认为有一种发展的冲动。
There's a compulsion, I wouldn't call it compulsion because that sounds negative, but I think that-
有一种强迫症，我不会称之为强迫症，因为这听起来很负面，但我认为-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
A drive.
一个驱动器。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
All mindfulness is, is noticing new things, creating new things.
所有的正念都是注意到新事物、创造新事物。
With that creation, we're maximally alive.
有了这样的创造，我们就可以最大限度地活着。
And so if we happen to be on the technology train, then it's technology that's going to get our attention.
因此，如果我们碰巧坐上了技术列车，那么技术就会引起我们的注意。
The people who are in other areas, whether it's creating music, doing what you and I do, it doesn't seem to me any different in principle.
其他领域的人，无论是创作音乐，还是做你我所做的事情，在我看来原则上没有什么不同。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What do you think that's about?
你认为这是关于什么的？
I'm not asking us to go into evolutionary psychology, but what do you think it is that humans have this generative spirit in their mind-body, same thing, to express and to create things that have some durability in time or that are just an expression of where we are?
我不是要求我们进入进化心理学，但你认为人类在他们的心身中具有这种生成精神，同样的东西，来表达和创造具有一定时间持久性的东西，或者只是我们所处位置的表达？
It's so unusual.
这太不寻常了。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
But I don't think that its durability is what matters.
但我认为它的耐用性并不重要。
I think then that becomes a social construction.
我认为这将成为一种社会建构。
What is the group, the Asians, monks, who are going to create art and, as soon as it's finished, then you bring it down to the water and to show that nothing lasts.
亚洲人、僧侣们正在创造艺术，一旦完成，你就会把它带到水里，以表明没有什么是永恒的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Sand castle, no selfie-
沙堡，禁止自拍——
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Sandca-- yeah
桑德卡——是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I call it.
我称之为。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sand castle, no selfie.
沙堡，不准自拍。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You're just doing it to do it.
你只是为了做而做。
I actually do a lot of writing these days that in my brain I've always called sand castle, no selfie.
这些天我实际上写了很多东西，在我的大脑中我一直称之为沙堡，没有自拍。
It's getting washed away, and then someone says, "Well, you could take a photo of it." And it's like, "Nope." Actually, I just do it.
它被冲走了，然后有人说：“好吧，你可以给它拍张照片。”就像，“不。”其实我只是这么做而已。
It's just a practice of getting out what I feel I need to get out.
这只是一种表达我觉得我需要表达的东西的练习。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Well, so for my mindfulness book, which I wrote way back when, the secretary I had then was a wonderful guy, but didn't know anything about computers, and I knew less.
嗯，对于我的正念书来说，我很久以前就写了这本书，当时的秘书是一个很棒的人，但对计算机一无所知，而我知道的也更少。
And so I would give him something and I'd say, "Insert this page 20," whatever.
所以我会给他一些东西，然后我会说，“插入第 20 页”，无论如何。
And he would just sort of randomly, because he didn't know what he was doing either, and then at some point, he lost an entire draft of the book.
他会有点随机，因为他也不知道自己在做什么，然后在某个时候，他丢失了这本书的整个草稿。
So sort of imagine.
这么想象一下。
And my first thought was probably more typical than my second thought, which is to go crazy, "Oh my God!" And then I said to myself, "What makes me think that that draft was better than the next draft that I can come up with?" In some sense, a version of your who cares.
我的第一个想法可能比我的第二个想法更典型，那就是发疯，“天哪！”然后我对自己说：“是什么让我认为那个草案比我能想出的下一个草案更好？”从某种意义上说，这是你关心的一个版本。
And then I just started working on it again.
然后我又开始研究它。
At some point, when you're writing these research papers, I think most people come to the point where first numbers count, right?
在某些时候，当你写这些研究论文时，我想大多数人都会意识到第一个数字很重要，对吗？
How many publications.
发表了多少篇文章。
Then at some point, the game changes, and you don't care about the number, and that's freeing.
然后在某个时刻，游戏发生了变化，你不再关心数字，这就是自由。
And so it seems a little similar.
所以看起来有点相似。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
I think that for people to recognize that that excitement can be gotten, the threading of the needle, as I said before, would make much of life feel different.
我认为，正如我之前所说，如果人们认识到这种兴奋是可以获得的，那么穿针引线会让生活的大部分感觉不同。
So we did, this is going to seem strange kind of answer here, but we took people who didn't like rap music, people who didn't like football, people who didn't like art.
所以我们就这样做了，这似乎是一种奇怪的答案，但我们选择了不喜欢说唱音乐的人，不喜欢足球的人，不喜欢艺术的人。
Okay, so a lot of haters.
好吧，有很多讨厌的人。
People who don't like anything.
什么都不喜欢的人。
One group is just given the activity.
一组只接受这项活动。
The next group is asked to notice one new thing about it.
下一组被要求注意一件新的事情。
The next group, three new things about it.
下一组是关于它的三个新事物。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They're doing it or observing it?
他们正在做或正在观察吗？
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Well, if it's football, they're observing.
好吧，如果是足球，他们就会观察。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
It doesn't matter if you're observing the rear ends-
如果你观察后端并不重要 -
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
...
...
of the football players.
的足球运动员。
Just noticing new things.
只是注意到新事物。
And the more you notice, the more you like what you're noticing.
你注意到的越多，你就越喜欢你所注意到的东西。
And to recognize that that's how simple it is.
并认识到事情就是这么简单。
Now, most people, especially when you're younger, you're waiting for something to pull you.
现在，大多数人，尤其是当你年轻的时候，你都在等待一些东西来拉动你。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Something to grab me and get me all excited.
有什么东西可以抓住我，让我兴奋不已。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
And how freeing if people were taught that you could grab it, whatever the it is-
如果人们被教导你可以抓住它，无论它是什么，那是多么自由——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
...
...
just by noticing.
只是通过注意。
You don't have to hold on to the thing you're holding onto when you're recognizing that you could hold onto the next thing.
当你认识到你可以抓住下一件事时，你就不必抓住你正在抓住的东西。
And I saw this "Seinfeld," this was so funny, I thought.
我看了这部《宋飞正传》，我想这太有趣了。
It must've been old "Seinfeld." After the show, he does a five-minute stand-up, and I'm going to Not do it as well as he, but nor should I.
一定是老歌《宋飞正传》。演出结束后，他做了五分钟的站立表演，我不会做得像他那么好，但我也不应该。
And he says, "What is this thing with appetites?" You go out to dinner and people say, "Don't eat the bread, you're going to spoil your appetite." There's so many appetites.
他说：“食欲是什么东西？”你出去吃饭，人们说：“别吃面包，你会破坏胃口的。”胃口真大啊
You spoil this one, there's another one right behind it.
你破坏了这个，后面还有另一个。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
And if you realize that that high, that total engagement, the passion you were feeling, was not a result of anything particular about the person, the context, how freeing it would be.
如果你意识到那种高度、那种全身心的投入、你所感受到的激情，并不是任何特定的人、环境的结果，那将会是多么的自由。
It'd be easy to let things go knowing that you can have that a moment later.
知道你稍后可以拥有它，就很容易把事情放手。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This is why at some point in my life, I'm going to tell my team six months and I'm done, and I'm going to go do art.
这就是为什么在我生命中的某个时刻，我会告诉我的团队六个月后我就完成了，我要去做艺术了。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Oh.
哦。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I just don't want to scare anybody.
我只是不想吓到任何人。
But I love the idea of being able to switch venue and possibly to even change identity, which is something I'd like to talk to you about.
但我喜欢能够改变场地，甚至可能改变身份的想法，这是我想和你谈谈的事情。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Well, the art is kind of interesting, that I started painting when I was about 50.
嗯，艺术有点有趣，我在 50 岁左右就开始画画了。
And I was one of those kids who couldn't draw.
我是那些不会画画的孩子之一。
And I'm going to have someone think of education.
我将请人考虑教育问题。
What mark might I have made on a page that would've led an elementary school teacher to lead me to believe that I had no artistic ability?
我在一页上做了什么标记，会让小学老师相信我没有艺术能力？
When you think of a difference between a Mondrian, a Rembrandt, people so different, that it's sinful for people to think they know how things should be, so they know who can do it and who can't, as if there's only one way to do whatever it is.
当你想到蒙德里安和伦勃朗之间的区别时，人们如此不同，以至于人们认为他们知道事情应该如何，所以他们知道谁能做到，谁不能，好像只有一种方法可以做任何事情，这是有罪的。
And I had this experience, and it was very clear in my mind.
我也有过这样的经历，我的心里也非常清楚。
So I have this painting, and I have this friend who is an art collector.
所以我有这幅画，我有一位艺术收藏家朋友。
She drinks a little too much.
她喝得有点多了。
She came over for a visit, and she saw the painting, a very early painting of mine.
她过来参观，她看到了这幅画，是我很早期的画。
And she looks at it and goes, "Ellen, there's something there." This is the important part.
她看着它，说道：“艾伦，那里有东西。”这是重要的部分。
Just, "Now, don't go thinking you're Rembrandt." Which wasn't nice, but she-
只是，“现在，别以为你是伦勃朗。”这不太好，但是她——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Not nice
不太好
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
...
...
had a little too much, but it didn't matter.
吃得有点太多了，不过没关系。
But my response was so important to me.
但我的回答对我来说非常重要。
I didn't say it because I didn't think it would go over well, but I said, "And Rembrandt isn't me." Now, I would rather be the very best Ellen Langer than the 500,000th, 5 millionth, whatever, Rembrandt.
我没有这么说，因为我认为这不会得到很好的结果，但我说，“伦勃朗不是我。”现在，我宁愿成为最好的艾伦·兰格，也不愿成为第 50 万个、第 500 万个伦勃朗。
And when you recognize that quality is a decision people are making, there is no absolute standard.
当您认识到质量是人们做出的决定时，就不存在绝对的标准。
If you know anything about art, let's take even the Impressionists, for people who pay so much money today, they were all rejected in their day.
如果你对艺术有所了解，甚至以印象派画家为例，因为今天付了这么多钱的人，在他们那个时代都被拒绝了。
When you realize that in some ways, and my work has suggested this to me, that if you're present when you're doing it, you're mindful when you're doing it, somehow that reveals itself in what you're doing.
当你在某些方面意识到这一点时，我的工作向我暗示了这一点，如果你在做这件事时在场，那么你在做这件事时就会保持专注，不知何故，这会在你所做的事情中显现出来。
And whether or not it does, you're putting yourself on that canvas, and it's great fun.
不管是否如此，你都会把自己放在画布上，这非常有趣。
It's exhilarating.
真是令人兴奋。
And when somebody belittles it, it's strange to me.
当有人贬低它时，我觉得很奇怪。
Where are those criteria coming from?
这些标准从何而来？
No different from in schools.
和学校里没啥区别。
I'm very much in favor of trying to create mindful education because, as I said before, I think that it's our system of education that has caused most of the mindlessness.
我非常赞成尝试创建正念教育，因为正如我之前所说，我认为是我们的教育体系造成了大部分的无意识现象。
And a slide that I put on when I give some of these talks, in my view, that virtually, I don't really mean virtually, I have to say it because I'm an academic, right?
在我看来，我在做一些演讲时放的一张幻灯片，实际上，我并不是说实际上，我必须这样说，因为我是一名学者，对吗？
All.
全部。
I believe all of our ills, all of them, Andrew, personal, interpersonal, professional, global, are the indirect or direct effect of our mindlessness.
我相信我们所有的疾病，安德鲁，所有的个人的、人际的、职业的、全球的疾病，都是我们无意识的间接或直接影响。
So here we have schools all over the country teaching these absolutes, propagated in magazines, newspapers, taught by our parents, taught to each other, all that are limiting us and causing the problems that we keep trying to solve.
因此，全国各地的学校都在教授这些绝对的知识，在杂志、报纸上传播，由我们的父母教授，互相教授，所有这些都限制了我们，并造成了我们一直试图解决的问题。
And how easy it would be if we just acknowledge everybody doesn't know something, everybody knows something else, everybody can't do something, everyone can do something else.
如果我们承认每个人都不知道某些事，每个人都知道某些事，每个人都不能做某些事，每个人都可以做某些事，那该多容易啊。
So when you're grading that paper and you're so sure that this paper just doesn't make it, to presume that every smart person in the world would evaluate that the same way, I find distasteful.
因此，当你对这篇论文进行评分并且你非常确定这篇论文没有通过时，假设世界上每个聪明的人都会以同样的方式评估它，我觉得很令人反感。
So constantly, you give tests in school to find out what people don't know.
因此，你经常在学校进行测试以找出人们不知道的内容。
Give tests to find out what they do know.
进行测试以了解他们所知道的内容。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Turns out it's the best way to learn.
事实证明这是最好的学习方式。
I researched an episode, a solo episode of this podcast I did, and to figure out what are the best ways to study and learn.
我研究了我制作的这个播客的一集，一个独奏集，并找出最好的学习方法。
It was based on a course that I had guest lectured in at Stanford.
它是基于我在斯坦福大学客座讲授的一门课程。
It turns out, we have to be careful now.
事实证明，我们现在必须小心了。
I have to be careful with saying things like the best.
我必须小心地说出最好的话。
One of the-
其中之一——
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
most effective ways to learn is to self-test for what one knows and doesn't know.
最有效的学习方法是自我测试自己知道什么和不知道什么。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But not for sake of evaluation, but for sake of-
但不是为了评价，而是为了——
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Sure
当然可以
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
enhancing recall and depth of-
增强记忆力和深度-
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Sure
当然可以
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
consolidation.
巩固。
And I think all of us, at least in this country-
我认为我们所有人，至少在这个国家——
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Well, but I'm saying something a little different.
好吧，但我说的有些不同。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Is you're saying how to remember-
你是说如何记住-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
...
...
which I agree with that completely.
我完全同意这一点。
But I'm saying that when we're testing people, we, whoever the we is, decided what is important to know-
但我想说的是，当我们测试人们时，我们，无论我们是谁，都会决定要知道什么是重要的——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm
毫米
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
...
...
to see does that student know that, ignoring all the other things that student must know.
看看该学生是否知道这一点，忽略学生必须知道的所有其他事情。
I said this before that I was lecturing in South Africa, and they put me up in this very fancy hotel, and I had taken a few hours off, and I was down by the pool.
我之前说过，我在南非讲课，他们把我安置在一家非常高档的酒店，我休息了几个小时，就在泳池边。
And there was this enormous amount of the hotel space, real estate, that was totally unused.
酒店有大量的空间、房地产完全没有被使用。
The only person who knew that was the lowly cabana boy, whom nobody is going to ask what his opinion is.
唯一知道这一点的人是那个卑微的小屋男孩，没有人会问他的意见是什么。
Everybody has a perspective that can add to the larger piece.
每个人都有自己的观点，可以为更大的作品增添内容。
And by having this idea, those of us on top, we really know people expect-- And I was given this genius award, and shortly afterwards, every time, they say, "And you're supposed to be a genius?" I never claimed.
通过有了这个想法，我们这些在上面的人，我们真的知道人们期望——我被授予了这个天才奖，不久之后，每次，他们都会说，“你应该是一个天才吗？”我从来没有声称过。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The danger of awards that carry things, titles like genius-
带有东西的奖项的危险，像天才这样的头衔——
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
or even Nobel.
甚至诺贝尔奖。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm not going to poke at my few friends that happen to have Nobels because they've done beautiful work, but it's rare that people who get Nobels do much after that.
我不会因为我的几个恰好获得诺贝尔奖的朋友做出了出色的工作而嘲笑他们，但获得诺贝尔奖的人在获得诺贝尔奖之后却做出了很多贡献，这是很少见的。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Do anything else.
做点别的事吧。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They become great sources of fundraising for universities.
它们成为大学筹款的重要来源。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So you get leveraged for that.
所以你可以利用这一点。
And I don't think anyone's going to shed a tear for a Nobel Prize winner here.
我认为这里没有人会为诺贝尔奖获得者流泪。
But this brings me to this notion of labels.
但这让我想到了标签的概念。
Not just rankings and performance, but labels.
不仅仅是排名和表现，还有标签。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We-
我们——
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Labels hide all the ambiguity.
标签隐藏了所有的歧义。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
So we can use grades.
所以我们可以使用等级。
When I give a student an A versus a B, it sounds like they're very different.
当我给学生 A 和 B 的评分时，听起来他们有很大不同。
But imagine, and I've studied this with respect to health, that the person who gets an 89, so you go from an 80 to an 89, you get a B, a 90 to 100, you get an A.
但想象一下，我已经研究了健康方面的问题，一个人得到了 89 分，所以你从 80 到 89，你得到 B，从 90 到 100，你得到 A。
Nobody in their right mind would think there's a real difference between the person who's gotten the 89 and the person who's gotten the 90.
头脑正常的人不会认为得 89 分的人和得 90 分的人之间有真正的区别。
But their worlds become very different.
但他们的世界变得非常不同。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
All the ambiguity is hidden.
所有的暧昧都被隐藏了。
We've studied this, and it's the borderline effect, as we call it, where, so imagine, let's say you and I take an IQ test, and for argument's sake, that you get a 70, so you're normal.
我们已经研究过这个问题，这就是我们所说的边缘效应，想象一下，假设你和我参加了一次智商测试，出于争论的目的，你得到了 70 分，所以你是正常的。
I get a 69, so I'm cognitively deprived.
我得了 69 分，所以我的认知能力被剥夺了。
I could have sneezed and read the question wrong.
我可能会打喷嚏并读错问题。
I could have come up with multiple answers that could have been better than the one that got the question and the person who wrote the question, and so on.
我本可以想出多个答案，这些答案可能比提出问题的人和写问题的人更好，等等。
But now we're put into two different categories.
但现在我们被分为两个不同的类别。
And because I'm cognitively deficient, I'm not given the training that I should be given.
因为我有认知缺陷，所以我没有得到应有的培训。
I no longer think well of myself.
我不再对自己有好感了。
And so if you ask me to read certain things, I'd probably opt-out, and so on.
因此，如果你要求我阅读某些内容，我可能会选择退出，等等。
And in a very short time, the difference between us becomes very real.
在很短的时间内，我们之间的差异就变得非常真实。
Well, it's the same thing with a medical diagnosis.
嗯，这与医学诊断是一样的。
There is always somebody who's right below the border who has it, or we'll say who doesn't have it, above and below, and the person right above or at that has it, where the two scores are not meaningfully different, but where one then is told they have the disease and the other not, and the difference becomes real over time.
总是有人在边界的正下方患有这种疾病，或者我们会说谁没有这种疾病，在上面和下面，而在正上方或正上方的人患有这种疾病，这两个分数没有显着的差异，但是一个人被告知他们患有这种疾病，而另一个则没有，随着时间的推移，这种差异变得真实。
And so we have data supporting that, and it's almost just a Gedanken experiment, a thought experiment.
所以我们有数据支持这一点，这几乎只是一个格丹肯实验，一个思想实验。
At some point, you have to put a limit and say-
在某些时候，你必须设定一个限制并说——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sure
当然可以
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
...
...
but you need to always know that it's made up.
但你需要始终知道它是编造的。
So what is the expiration date for this can of food?
那么这罐食品的保质期是多少天呢？
Well, there are people who actually go through their shelves and throw these things out because it's two weeks old, not realizing how did they come up with that date in the first place?
好吧，有些人实际上会翻遍货架并把这些东西扔掉，因为它们已经两周了，却没有意识到他们一开始是如何想出这个日期的？
Anyway.
反正。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
But to go back to what you were saying, and let me remind you now because I'm having the junior moment, that labels, names of things, these categories help us organize things, but more often or as often, hold things still and cause problems.
但回到你刚才所说的，让我现在提醒你，因为我正处于初级阶段，标签、事物名称、这些类别可以帮助我们组织事物，但更多时候或经常使事物保持静止并导致问题。
I did that first study way back when called A Patient by Any Other Name.
早在我被称为“任何其他名字的病人”时，我就进行了第一项研究。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
And we made a videotape of a person being interviewed and showed it to therapists who were either behavior therapists or Freudian types, and the person on the tape was called either a patient or a job applicant, so the exact same tape.
我们制作了一个接受采访的人的录像带，并将其展示给行为治疗师或弗洛伊德类型的治疗师，录像带上的人被称为患者或求职者，所以完全相同的录像带。
When we called the person a patient, they were seen as having hidden this and problems and that, and so on.
当我们称这个人为病人时，他们被认为隐藏了这个、问题等等。
When the person was called a job applicant, they were seen as well-adjusted.
当这个人被称为求职者时，他们被认为适应得很好。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I have a friend who was in elite, elite special operations for a number of years.
我有一个朋友，他在精英特种部队工作了很多年。
Very smart guy, very philosophical, and he once said to me, for reasons that I don't recall, he said, "The two most powerful but also dangerous words in the English language are 'I am.'" Because anything that follows the words "I am" will completely constrain your notions of what's possible and what's not possible.
非常聪明的人，非常有哲理，他曾经对我说，出于我不记得的原因，他说，“英语中两个最强大但也最危险的词是‘我是’。”因为“我是”这个词后面的任何内容都会完全限制你关于什么是可能的和什么是不可能的概念。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I said, "Why are you telling me this?" Right?
我说：“你为什么告诉我这个？”正确的？
Because I pointed out that he was from special operations.
因为我指出他是特种部队的。
He said that he and his teammates had a mode of refreshing their mindset around particular operations that were, because of the division of the military he was in, et cetera, it was quite varied.
他说，他和他的队友有一种围绕特定行动刷新思维的模式，因为他所在的军队的划分等原因，它是多种多样的。
It wasn't like they were just doing one type of thing.
他们并不只是在做一类事情。
They had to be very adaptive.
他们必须具有很强的适应性。
And he said that they had to completely wipe away this "I am" component of their vocabulary, except as it related to the word adaptive.
他说，他们必须完全消除词汇中的“我是”成分，除非它与“适应性”一词相关。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It was like, "I am adaptive." But there was never a title to who they were or what they were once they entered the context of a planning execution of one of these operations.
就像是，“我有适应能力。”但一旦他们进入其中一项行动的计划执行范围，他们是谁或他们是什么，就再也没有一个头衔了。
Very interesting way of thinking about identity, how it shapes mindset, how it constrains it and opens doors.
这是一种非常有趣的思考身份的方式，它如何塑造心态，如何约束心态并打开大门。
And converts things into action and, or failure to execute.
并将事情转化为行动或执行失败。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
I found it very intriguing because here's a guy I wouldn't normally think of this stuff, but it turned out, he said that was a very potent tool for them.
我发现这非常有趣，因为这是一个我通常不会想到这些东西的人，但事实证明，他说这对他们来说是一个非常有效的工具。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Well, I think that as soon as you're learning something, and if you have your sense of as if you're going to be the same person over the next 70 years, for example.
嗯，我认为，例如，一旦你在学习一些东西，并且如果你有一种感觉，就好像你在接下来的 70 年里还是同一个人。
We don't actually cognize that, but without literally realizing that you're not going to be the same person, and you take in whatever you've just learned and continue doing it the exact same way.
我们实际上并没有意识到这一点，但并没有真正意识到你不会成为同一个人，你会接受你刚刚学到的一切，并继续以完全相同的方式去做。
We go back to tennis.
我们回到网球。
You learn the game of tennis when you're 15, and now you're 40.
你 15 岁的时候就开始学习网球，现在你已经 40 岁了。
You shouldn't be doing any of it the same way.
你不应该以同样的方式做任何事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Why do you think we get so-
你认为我们为什么会这样-
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
And now you're 80.
现在你80岁了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Again, and so what happens is your performance is not going to be as good as it could be because the 80-year-old body's trying to do it as if it's a 15-year-old-
再说一次，所以你的表现不会那么好，因为 80 岁的身体试图像 15 岁的人一样做事——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm
毫米
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
...
...
rather than taking advantage of, there are positive things that happen as you get older.
随着年龄的增长，一些积极的事情会发生，而不是利用。
They're not all negative.
它们并不都是消极的。
If I'm playing tennis with, I don't know, a 15-year-old kid, I'm going to win without having to move very much because they don't know what they're doing.
如果我和一个 15 岁的孩子打网球，我不知道，我不用移动太多就能赢，因为他们不知道自己在做什么。
You know?
你知道？
So that you don't need the same skills, the more experience you have with the task, necessarily, at least.
因此，您不需要相同的技能，至少，您在执行任务方面拥有的经验越多。
You see what I'm saying is that we freeze our own behavior.
你看我的意思是我们冻结自己的行为。
Every time you learn-- The way we learn everything, it boggles the mind.
每次你学习——我们学习一切的方式，都会令人难以置信。
You learn how to drive, and then you freeze the way you're learning how to drive when you know the least about how to drive.
你学习如何驾驶，然后当你对如何驾驶知之甚少时，你就冻结了学习如何驾驶的方式。
And that's the way you're going to do it for the rest of your life.
这就是你余生都会这样做的方式。
A driving thing, just as a, not really apropos of anything except in the car, that if you're driving on ice, what do you do?
驾驶的事情，就像一个，除了在车里之外，与任何其他事情无关，如果你在冰上驾驶，你会做什么？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well-
嗯-
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Your car starts to skid.
你的车开始打滑。
You're driving on ice.
你在冰上开车。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, I know what you-
好吧，我知道你-
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
I know California, you don't pay attention.
我知道加州，你不注意。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I know what you don't do.
我知道你不做什么。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
What?
什么？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You don't slam on the brakes.
你不用猛踩刹车。
You slowly come off the gas.
你慢慢地关掉油门。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Okay, now that's-
好吧，现在是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I've driven on the East Coast a little bit.
我在东海岸开车过一段时间。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
That's exactly wrong, Andrew.
这是完全错误的，安德鲁。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Really?
真的吗？
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
That used to be the case.
过去就是这样。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
You see?
你看到了吗？
So you've heard this is the way we learn everything.
你一定听说过，这就是我们学习一切的方式。
You start on the way things are right now, that when you skid, we were told that what you're supposed to do is gently hit the brake and turn into the curb.
你从现在的情况开始，当你打滑时，我们被告知你应该做的就是轻轻踩刹车并转入路边。
Now that there are anti-lock brakes, the only way, the safest way to stop that car is to jam on those brakes.
现在有了防抱死刹车，唯一、最安全的停车方法就是踩刹车。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hmm.
嗯。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
So, but just think about it because this is the way we learn everything.
所以，但请想一想，因为这是我们学习一切的方式。
You learn, in this case, you're learning how to drive for safety's sake.
在这种情况下，你会了解到，为了安全起见，你正在学习如何驾驶。
And then you mindlessly continue that, and it becomes very unsafe.
然后你盲目地继续这样做，这就变得非常不安全。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Well-
嗯-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I didn't get the memo.
我没有收到备忘录。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Okay, no, most people don't.
好吧，不，大多数人都不会。
That's why I brought it up now-
这就是为什么我现在提出来——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
...
...
seeming apropos of almost nothing.
看起来几乎毫无意义。
But we need to understand that things are changing and pay attention to the way that they're changing, and change with it.
但我们需要了解事物正在发生变化，并关注它们变化的方式，并随之改变。
And the more you hold yourself, you're talking about identity, the more you hold yourself still, the harder that's going to be.
你越坚持自己，你就在谈论身份，你越坚持自己不动，这就会变得越困难。
I'm much older, as most people are, than I used to be, but I don't have any sense of age.
和大多数人一样，我比以前老了很多，但我没有任何年龄感。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hmm.
嗯。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
I really don't.
我真的不知道。
In fact, the other day, and the other day now means years ago , I was helping this woman with something, and somebody dear to me said, "You're probably 20 years older than she is." I had no sense.
事实上，前几天，现在的前几天意味着几年前，我正在帮助这个女人做某事，我亲爱的一个人说，“你可能比她大 20 岁。”我没有任何感觉。
I thought I was helping this old person.
我以为我是在帮助这位老人。
Age is just not a relevant factor for me.
年龄对我来说不是一个相关因素。
Sometimes you want to be aware of age.
有时您想了解年龄。
We did some research where we have people who, there are cues in the environment that often tell us how old we are, and those are not always so good.
我们做了一些研究，环境中的一些线索经常告诉我们我们的年龄，但这些线索并不总是那么好。
So, for example, if I, at my age, I'm in a fancy store and I go to buy, let's say a dress, or a skirt, okay, it would be inappropriate for me to buy a mini skirt.
所以，举例来说，如果我在我这个年纪，在一家高档商店，我去买一件衣服，或者一条裙子，好吧，我买迷你裙是不合适的。
I'm too old to be wearing almost nothing there.
我太老了，几乎什么都不穿。
Right?
正确的？
So clothing tells you how old the person is.
所以衣服可以告诉你这个人的年龄。
Now, we did research, just archival research, with people who wore uniforms.
现在，我们对穿制服的人进行了研究，只是档案研究。
That if you're wearing a uniform from the first day you start working, you're there 30 years, there's no difference.
如果你从开始工作的第一天起就穿着制服，那么你已经工作了 30 年，没有什么区别。
Okay?
好的？
There's no age-relevant cue.
没有与年龄相关的线索。
And in those situations, are healthier.
在这些情况下，人会更健康。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Really?
真的吗？
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Because they're not getting the cue that they're old.
因为他们没有意识到自己已经老了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, Our Place.
我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商之一，我们的地方。
Our Place makes my favorite pots, pans, and other cookware.
我们的地方生产我最喜欢的锅、平底锅和其他炊具。
Now, I've discussed on this podcast before that the PFAS, or forever chemicals like Teflon, have been linked to major health issues such as endocrine disruption, that means hormone disruption, gut microbiome disruption, fertility issues, and many other health problems.
现在，我之前在这个播客中讨论过，PFAS，或者像聚四氟乙烯这样的永久性化学物质，与内分泌干扰等重大健康问题有关，这意味着激素干扰、肠道微生物组破坏、生育问题和许多其他健康问题。
So it's really important to avoid them.
因此，避免它们非常重要。
This is why I recently fell in love with Our Place products, especially one of their cooking pans, the Titanium Always Pan Pro.
这就是为什么我最近爱上了 Our Place 产品，尤其是他们的一款烹饪锅，Titanium Always Pan Pro。
Our Place products are made with the highest quality materials and are all PFAS and toxin-free.
我们的 Place 产品采用最优质的材料制成，不含 PFAS 和毒素。
They're beautifully designed and function extremely well for all your cooking needs.
它们设计精美，功能非常好，可满足您的所有烹饪需求。
Most mornings, I cook eggs in it, I cook ground beef in it, ground venison, and the titanium pan is also designed in a way that allows eggs and meat to cook perfectly without sticking to the pan.
大多数早晨，我都会用它煮鸡蛋、碎牛肉、碎鹿肉，而且钛锅的设计也可以让鸡蛋和肉完美烹饪，而不会粘在锅上。
It's extremely easy to clean, and like all Our Place products, it's nice to look at when sitting on the counter or on the stove.
它非常容易清洁，并且像所有 Our Place 产品一样，放在柜台或炉子上时看起来很漂亮。
For a limited time, Our Place is offering an exclusive 20% discount on their innovative Titanium Always Pan Pro, designed to last a lifetime and completely toxin-free.
在有限的时间内，Our Place 为其创新的 Titanium Always Pan Pro 提供 20% 的独家折扣，该产品专为终身使用且完全无毒而设计。
Visit fromourplace.com/huberman and use the code SAVEHUBERMAN20 to claim the offer.
请访问 fromourplace.com/huberman 并使用代码 SAVEHUBERMAN20 领取优惠。
So if one has parents, let's say, who are "slowing down a bit," and they're talking a little bit about some aches and pains, and there's a stairwell in the house, for instance, and they're starting to say things like, "At some point, we're either going to have to move into a place that doesn't have a stairwell or put one of those chair lift things-
所以，如果一个人的父母，比方说，他们“放慢一点”，他们会谈论一些疼痛，例如，房子里有一个楼梯间，他们会开始说这样的话，“在某些时候，我们要么不得不搬到一个没有楼梯间的地方，要么放一个升降椅的东西——
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Oh, terrible
哦，太可怕了
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
or maybe just move into the downstairs."
或者干脆搬到楼下去。”
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do you think that in just thinking about that, they're going to accelerate the-
你认为只要考虑一下这一点，他们就会加速——
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Well, it's-
嗯，这是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
demise of their locomotor ability?
他们的运动能力丧失了吗？
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah, I do actually.
是的，我确实这样做。
I think that when we start entertaining these negative thoughts and evaluating ourselves, we're always going to find evidence.
我认为，当我们开始接受这些消极想法并评估自己时，我们总是会找到证据。
As you get older, you start, "Oh my God, am I forgetful?" So you pay attention each time you forget, and that makes it even worse.
随着年龄的增长，你会开始想：“天啊，我是不是健忘了？”所以每次忘记的时候你都会注意，这会让事情变得更糟。
When I said to my students in this health class, smart kids at Harvard, this is on Thursday, I teach Tuesday and Thursday, I said, "What was the last thing I said in class on Tuesday?" Nobody remembers.
当我在健康课上对我的学生们，哈佛的聪明孩子们说，今天是星期四，我在星期二和星期四教课时，我说，“我星期二在课堂上说的最后一句话是什么？”没有人记得。
I said, "You must be getting dementia." All right.
我说：“你一定得痴呆了。”好的。
So that when a young person forgets-
所以当一个年轻人忘记了——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
...
...
it's okay, they don't pay any attention to the forgetting.
没关系，他们不关心遗忘。
As you get older and you forget-
随着年龄的增长，你会忘记——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
...
...
you get less involved in what you're doing.
你对自己正在做的事情的参与度会降低。
If you're trying to learn something, you have the competing part of you saying that you're not going to remember this, and so on.
如果你想学习一些东西，你内心的竞争部分就会说你不会记住这一点，等等。
And independent of all of this, I think a lot of the loss in memory has nothing to do with memory.
与所有这些无关，我认为很多记忆丧失与记忆无关。
When I was young, and you're introducing me to people, I thought it was important for me to remember their names.
当我年轻的时候，当你把我介绍给人们时，我认为记住他们的名字对我来说很重要。
Andrew, I know doesn't speak well of me.
安德鲁，我知道他没说我好话。
I don't really care.
我真的不在乎。
You're going to introduce me to five of your-- what do I care?
你要把我介绍给你的五个人——我在乎什么？
If I'm going to need their names, chances are I will meet them again, right?
如果我需要他们的名字，我很可能会再次见到他们，对吗？
So afterwards, if you say to me, "Remember Jim," and I say to you, "Which one was Jim?" It wasn't that I forgot.
所以之后，如果你对我说，“还记得吉姆吗？”我对你说，“哪一个是吉姆？”并不是我忘记了。
To forget means I had to have learned it in the first place.
忘记意味着我必须首先学会它。
And so if you don't learn it in the first place because you don't care, because your values change as you get older, then it's not a matter of forgetting when you don't know it in the second place.
因此，如果你一开始不学习它是因为你不在乎，因为你的价值观随着年龄的增长而改变，那么当你一开始就不知道它时，这就不是什么忘记的问题了。
And I think that if we turn it around, because now I'm doing this because I know you expect it of me, and we say, what if you remembered everything?
我认为如果我们扭转局面，因为现在我这样做是因为我知道你对我有这样的期望，我们说，如果你记住了一切怎么办？
Everything.
一切。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That'd be terrible.
那太糟糕了。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
How would you get through-
你将如何度过——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That'd be dreadful
那将是可怕的
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
...
...
you wouldn't get to experience anything new.
你不会体验到任何新的东西。
So forgetting serves a purpose.
所以遗忘是有目的的。
And I used to think I never tested this, and now I came up with this years ago, and I think it's probably wrong, but it's kind of fun, that people, as they get older, they become hard of hearing.
我曾经以为我从未测试过这个，现在我几年前想出了这个，我认为这可能是错误的，但这很有趣，随着人们年龄的增长，他们会变得听力困难。
But it also happens that the older you get, the more you realize nobody is really saying anything.
但也有一种情况是，你年纪越大，你就越意识到没有人真正在说什么。
And so being hard of hearing protects you from a lot of that-
因此，听力困难可以保护你免受很多伤害——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
...
...
noise.
噪音。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, my grandfather used to just turn off his hearing aid.
是的，我祖父过去常常关掉他的助听器。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Turn it off, yeah.
关掉它，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I've always had glasses for reading at night when my eyes would get fatigued or something, but recently it came to my awareness that my vision at a distance is very, very sharp.
我一直在晚上看书时戴眼镜，那时我的眼睛会感到疲劳什么的，但最近我发现我的远距离视力非常非常敏锐。
I'm like an eagle.
我就像一只鹰。
I can read numbers-
我能读懂数字——
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
very far away.
很远。
But my vision up close has been diminishing.
但我的近距离视力一直在减弱。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I find myself straining a bit more even than this, so I started wearing eyeglasses.
我发现自己比这更紧张，所以我开始戴眼镜。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Or you should have the book further away.
或者你应该把书放在远一点的地方。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or I should have the book further away, but I've just defaulted to eyeglasses.
或者我应该把书放在远一点的地方，但我只是默认了眼镜。
But I realized that because I understand the neuroplasticity of the visual system, that I'm certainly accelerating the demise of my near vision-
但我意识到，因为我了解视觉系统的神经可塑性，所以我肯定会加速我近视力的消亡——
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
by wearing glasses.
通过戴眼镜。
And so I'm trying to balance the two.
所以我正在努力平衡两者。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Well, do you know our vision study?
那么，你知道我们的视力研究吗？
This is kind of fun.
这很有趣。
So I'm in the doctor's office, and like everybody else, I'm given the Snellen eye chart.
所以我在医生的办公室里，和其他人一样，我拿到了斯内伦视力表。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
The Snellen is the letters-
斯内伦是字母-
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
The letters.
字母。
Exactly
正是如此
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and numbers, yeah.
和数字，是的。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Okay.
好的。
But I'm different from most people, and I resent that the letters are getting smaller and smaller because it's creating an expectation that soon I won't be able to see.
但我与大多数人不同，我对字母变得越来越小感到不满，因为它产生了一种我很快就看不到的期望。
So I ask what would happen if the letters got larger and larger, which would be to change the expectation that soon I will be able to see.
所以我问如果字母变得越来越大会发生什么，这将改变我很快就能看到的期望。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
So when we do that, people are able to see what they weren't able to see before.
因此，当我们这样做时，人们能够看到他们以前看不到的东西。
Now, most of us have trouble around two-thirds of the way down the chart.
现在，我们大多数人在图表的三分之二左右都遇到了麻烦。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
So what we did was start the chart a third of the way down-
所以我们所做的就是从图表的三分之一处开始-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
...
...
so the letters are smaller than on top.
所以字母比上面的小。
So now two-thirds of the way down that starting point, the letters are really small.
现在，在起点的三分之二处，字母真的很小了。
And what happens is, again, people can see what they couldn't see before.
结果再次发生的是，人们可以看到以前看不到的东西。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Awesome.
太棒了。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So the idea that your vision has to get worse, I think there are many, many instances where that's not the case, but also the whole test of vision is bizarre.
因此，你的视力必须变得更糟的想法，我认为有很多很多情况并非如此，而且整个视力测试也很奇怪。
How often in your life are you looking at letters that make no sense?
在你的生活中，你有多少次看到毫无意义的信件？
If I don't want to see you, I'm going to see you a lot sooner to be able to run away from you.
如果我不想见你，我会早点见到你，以便能够逃离你。
If I'm hungry, I can see the restaurant sign-
如果我饿了，我可以看到餐厅的招牌——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
...
...
much quicker than if I'm not hungry.
比我不饿的时候快得多。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
I see things in color that are different in black and white-
我看到的东西是彩色的，与黑白不同——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right
右
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
...
...
so on and so forth.
等等。
And to lose all of that with a two-dimensional eye test seems to me-- And again, we haven't touched on this, but it's probably important with respect to vision, it's true with everything.
在我看来，二维视力测试会失去所有这些——再说一次，我们还没有触及这一点，但这对于视力来说可能很重要，对于一切都是如此。
In fact, I tell people, "You're wearing glasses.
事实上，我告诉人们，“你戴着眼镜。
Try it without glasses.
不戴眼镜试试。
You want to see when you can see and when you can't see." With almost everything, we again Hold things still when they're varying.
你想看看什么时候能看见，什么时候看不见。”对于几乎所有事物，我们都会在事物发生变化时保持静止。
Now, what I mean by this is that, let's say with vision, my guess is that 11 o'clock in the morning, my vision is better than at 7 o'clock at night.
现在，我的意思是，就视力而言，我的猜测是，早上 11 点，我的视力比晚上 7 点更好。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The data's a yes.
数据是肯定的。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
It'd be hard for it not.
不这样就很难了。
So what does this say?
那么这说明了什么？
This says maybe I should either have a nap.
这说明也许我应该小睡一下。
I don't nap, so I should have an energy bar.
我不午睡，所以我应该吃能量棒。
And even an energy bar is cued.
甚至能量棒也会被提示。
It's just a candy bar, but you call it an energy bar, you're allowed to eat it.
它只是一块糖果，但你称它为能量棒，你可以吃它。
It's like you take a piece of cake, put it in a muffin tin, it's called a muffin.
就像你拿一块蛋糕，把它放在松饼罐里，它就被称为松饼。
It's healthier than the piece of cake.
它比小菜一碟更健康。
Anyway, all that be that as it may.
无论如何，一切就这样吧。
That a great amount of control over our physical well-being comes about by attention to variability, which is just a fancy way of talking about mindfulness.
对身体健康的大量控制来自于对可变性的关注，这只是谈论正念的一种奇特方式。
Mindfulness is noticing change.
正念是注意到变化。
That's what it means to be variable.
这就是可变的意思。
All right, so if you took your glasses off and you saw for yourself, what are the times, what are the moments that you're having-- I'm not talking about people who are almost blind, where I can't see and when I can see.
好吧，如果你摘下眼镜，亲眼看看，现在是什么时候，你正在经历什么时刻——我不是在谈论那些几乎失明的人，我在哪里看不见，什么时候能看见。
And then you ask yourself why.
然后你问自己为什么。
And that it may be the case that it's a particular font or, more likely, that you're tired, and then you have other options.
可能是它是一种特定的字体，或者更可能的是，你累了，然后你有其他选择。
But once you start wearing them, it's like taking a laxative.
但一旦你开始佩戴它们，就像服用了泻药一样。
Take a laxative once, it's fine.
吃一次泻药就好了。
If you're taking a laxative all the time, you're teaching your body to depend on the laxative.
如果您一直服用泻药，那么您就是在教导您的身体依赖泻药。
We teach ourselves by some of these things that are supposed to be helpful, and we teach ourselves to need them in ways we otherwise wouldn't.
我们通过一些被认为有帮助的事情来教导自己，并教导自己以我们原本不需要的方式需要它们。
And so we did this attention to symptom variability with big diseases.
因此，我们关注重大疾病的症状变异性。
So when you have a chronic illness, first way most people understand chronic illness is that there's nothing that can be done about it.
因此，当您患有慢性病时，大多数人对慢性病的第一个理解就是对此无能为力。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, the word chronic implies that.
是的，慢性这个词暗示着这一点。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
But all it means is the medical world doesn't have a fix.
但这仅意味着医学界没有解决办法。
It doesn't mean there's nothing can be done.
这并不意味着我们无能为力。
Now, you have your symptoms with the chronic illness.
现在，您出现了慢性疾病的症状。
The presumption most of the time, I would think, is that the symptoms are going to stay the same or get worse.
我认为，大多数时候的假设是症状将保持不变或变得更糟。
Nothing only moves in one direction.
没有什么东西只会朝一个方向移动。
Sometimes it's a little better, sometimes a little-- The stock market, if it's going up, it doesn't go up in a straight line.
有时好一点，有时好一点——股市如果上涨，它不会直线上涨。
It goes up, down a little, up, and so on.
它上升，下降一点，上升，等等。
All right.
好的。
So when it's better, why is it better?
那么，当它更好时，为什么会更好呢？
So we do this.
所以我们这样做。
We call people periodically, and we simply ask them, "How is the symptom now?
我们定期给人们打电话，只是问他们：“现在症状怎么样？
Is it better or worse than the last time we called, and why?" Several things happen.
比我们上次打电话时好还是坏，为什么？”发生了几件事。
The first, by engaging in the whole process, people feel less helpless, and that turns out to be good for your health.
首先，通过参与整个过程，人们会感到不那么无助，这对你的健康有益。
Second, once you start noticing that now it's a little better, or it can even be a little worse, you feel better because you thought that it was always maximally, I'm always in pain, I'm always stressed, whatever it is.
其次，一旦你开始注意到现在情况好一点了，甚至可能更糟了一点，你就会感觉好多了，因为你认为它总是最大化，我总是处于痛苦之中，我总是感到压力，无论是什么。
Third, or whatever I'm up to, by asking the question, why now is it better or worse than before, you engage in a mindful search.
第三，或者无论我在做什么，通过问这个问题，为什么现在比以前更好或更差，你会进行认真的搜索。
And I have decades of evidence that that mindfulness itself, the neurons are firing, that itself is good for your health.
我有数十年的证据表明，正念本身，神经元正在放电，本身对您的健康有益。
And then finally, I believe you're more likely to find a solution if you're looking for one.
最后，我相信如果您正在寻找解决方案，您更有可能找到解决方案。
So we've done this with multiple sclerosis, chronic pain, Parkinson's, stroke, biggies, and in each case have very positive results.
因此，我们已经针对多发性硬化症、慢性疼痛、帕金森病、中风、大病进行了这种治疗，并且在每种情况下都取得了非常积极的结果。
And the good thing about these sorts of things is that there are no negative side effects.
这类事情的好处是没有负面影响。
And it doesn't mean that you have to stop doing any medical procedures you may be doing.
这并不意味着您必须停止正在进行的任何医疗程序。
But you're back in charge of your own healthcare.
但您又可以负责自己的医疗保健了。
Why does this hurt now?
为什么现在会痛？
Stress.
压力。
There are some people who think they're stressed all the time.
有些人认为自己一直都有压力。
Nobody is anything all the time.
没有人始终是任何东西。
So I call you, Andrew, and I say, "How stressed are you now and why?" And we go through this over time, and then you find out you're stressed when you're talking to Ellen Langer.
所以我打电话给你，安德鲁，我说，“你现在压力有多大，为什么？”随着时间的推移，我们会经历这个过程，然后你会发现，当你与艾伦·兰格交谈时，你感到压力很大。
Well, then the solution is easy.
那么解决办法就很简单了。
Don't talk to me.
别跟我说话。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I've been thinking about deadlines a lot lately, and we hear stories of people being told, "I need this done in 15 days." And if people are forced to do it in 15 days, somehow they're able to get it done in 15 days.
最近我经常考虑截止日期，我们听到人们被告知“我需要在 15 天内完成这件事”的故事。如果人们被迫在 15 天内完成，他们无论如何都能在 15 天内完成。
And certainly, there are limits to this.
当然，这也是有限制的。
If you told me I need to write 1,000 pages in five minutes, there would be very little on each page.
如果你告诉我我需要在五分钟内写 1000 页，那么每一页上的内容都很少。
But staying within the bounds of reason of what we're talking about when we say there's a deadline in X number of days, why do you think it is that our perception of what's possible tends to scale with, A, what's been done before, so precedent or no precedent.
但是，当我们说 X 天的最后期限时，请保持在我们所讨论的理性范围内，为什么你认为我们对可能性的看法往往会随着，A，以前做过的事情而变化，所以有先例或没有先例。
The four-minute mile, for instance.
例如，四分钟一英里。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Until Banister broke it, no one else broke it.
在巴尼斯特打破它之前，没有其他人打破它。
He broke it.
他打破了它。
Lots of people have broken it since, and did immediately afterwards.
从那时起，很多人都打破了它，并且随后立即这样做了。
So what do you think about this notion of what's possible in terms of preordained human decision constraints?
那么，您如何看待这种在预定的人类决策限制方面可能发生的事情的概念？
Like, no one can break the four-minute mile.
就像，没有人能打破四分钟一英里。
Someone breaks the four-minute mile, now we reset to a new reality in time and in capability.
有人打破了四分钟一英里，现在我们在时间和能力上重新设定了一个新的现实。
Because I feel like much of what we believe about ourselves is also constrained by our beliefs about the outside world.
因为我觉得我们对自己的大部分信念也受到我们对外部世界的信念的限制。
And as you pointed out earlier, all of that's just a human script that is the play we're all in.
正如您之前指出的，所有这一切都只是人类的剧本，这就是我们所参与的戏剧。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
I think that the first part is what guides most of us is what's been done before.
我认为第一部分指导我们大多数人的是以前做过的事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
And the fact that nobody has done it, to me, means nothing, but to a lot of people-- See, people create theories working backwards.
事实上，没有人做到这一点，对我来说，没有任何意义，但对很多人来说——看，人们创造了逆向工作的理论。
Which is they often take what is and then derive rules to explain why it has to be like that.
他们经常采取现状，然后推导出规则来解释为什么它必须是这样的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Once you believe it has to be like that, then it doesn't occur to you to do anything other than that.
一旦你相信事情必须如此，那么你就不会想到做除此之外的任何事情。
But if we start off with the notions of science that I was talking about before, that it's all just probability, no absolutes, then it wouldn't occur to you to stay within the rigid boundaries.
但如果我们从我之前谈到的科学概念开始，一切都只是概率，没有绝对，那么你就不会想到要停留在严格的界限内。
Not the best answer, but the only one that came to mind.
这不是最好的答案，但却是我想到的唯一答案。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, it's a great answer.
不，这是一个很好的答案。
I'm trying to think about the use of the scientific method, which is what you use-
我正在尝试考虑科学方法的使用，这就是你所使用的-
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in your lab and in your research.
在您的实验室和研究中。
And why it is that you haven't, it seems, challenged the scientific method itself, except at the level of what hypothesis you're going to test.
为什么你似乎没有挑战科学方法本身，除了你要检验的假设层面。
In order to do great science, at some point you need statistics-
为了进行伟大的科学研究，在某些时候你需要统计数据——
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
you need sample size to be sufficient.
你需要样本量足够。
The rigor of your studies is as important as the originality of the questions you're asking.
你学习的严谨性与你提出的问题的原创性同样重要。
And so it seems that you've embraced the scientific method as-
所以看来你已经接受了科学方法——
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Well, no
嗯，不
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
at least useful.
至少有用。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
No-
不-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
...
...
that's the key.
这是关键。
That to me, it's a means of speaking to certain people.
对我来说，这是与某些人交谈的一种方式。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
And it carries with a certain gravitas.
它带有一定的庄严感。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
But I by no means feel that it's giving answers that are any more absolute.
但我绝不认为它给出的答案更加绝对。
Well, as I said before, that all of the answers are probabilities.
好吧，正如我之前所说，所有答案都是概率。
So it's just a language to use.
所以它只是一种使用的语言。
The counterclockwise study was criticized because I didn't publish it in a standard journal because my assumption of the com-- It's very hard if you're doing something over a week's time to control for every possibility.
逆时针研究受到批评，因为我没有在标准期刊上发表它，因为我对 com 的假设 - 如果你在一周以上的时间里做某件事来控制每种可能性，这是非常困难的。
And what I was trying to do in that study was to show that vision, for example, can be improved, that lots of the things that people presume are wired in, as you get older, it gets worse and worse, that just doesn't have to be that way.
我在这项研究中试图做的是证明视力是可以改善的，人们认为很多事情都是与生俱来的，随着年龄的增长，情况会变得越来越糟，但事实并非如此。
But I'm having trouble remembering now because I know that I was going to write a paper taking the whole science of science apart and never did.
但我现在记不清了，因为我知道我本来要写一篇论文，将整个科学科学分开，但我从未这样做过。
And if I had written the paper, I'd probably remember what I was going to say and answer your question.
如果我写了这篇论文，我可能会记住我要说的话并回答你的问题。
But it's a good one.
但这是一件好事。
But I don't think that there's anything that is described as absolute that's going to be right, whether it's physics, even physics, biology, psychology, anything, that our methods can only take us so far.
但我不认为任何被描述为绝对的东西都是正确的，无论是物理学，甚至物理学、生物学、心理学，任何东西，我们的方法只能带我们到目前为止。
And the people who get beyond that are the people who don't presume that that's as far as you can go.
那些超越这一点的人是那些不认为这就是你能走多远的人。
If you can go this way, you can go a little further.
如果你能走这条路，你就能走得更远一些。
I was a chemistry major when I was an undergraduate, and the problem was I practiced Jewish chemistry, which was a little is good, a little more is better, which is not the way to do chemistry.
我本科时学的是化学专业，问题是我练习了犹太化学，犹太化学有点好，多一点更好，这不是化学的方法。
But I don't know what it is that leads some people to be rigid and to take everything that is told to them as if it must be, and what it is that led me to a different way of being and testing it, or just thinking that some of the things that people say just made no sense to me.
但我不知道是什么导致一些人变得僵化，把告诉他们的一切都视为必须如此，也不知道是什么导致我采取不同的存在方式和测试它，或者只是认为人们所说的一些事情对我来说毫无意义。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Not long ago, we went through one of the biggest public health crises of at least my lifetime.
不久前，我们经历了至少我一生中最大的公共卫生危机之一。
And at least two major controversies arose.
至少出现了两个重大争议。
One was the extent to which masks should or shouldn't be worn and are useful or no. The other is about the so-called vaccines.
一是在多大程度上应该戴或不应该戴口罩以及是否有用。另一个是关于所谓的疫苗。
And this is-
这是——
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
No, I think those are beautiful examples because one can make an argument that you should wear masks, but the other side also makes sense.
不，我认为这些都是很好的例子，因为人们可以提出你应该戴口罩的论点，但另一面也有道理。
The way masks were preventing even non-verbal communication, which is very important, and important to people's health, right?
口罩甚至阻止了非语言交流，这对人们的健康非常重要，对吧？
Your relationships are not an inconsequential part of your well-being.
你的人际关系并不是你幸福的一个无关紧要的部分。
And vaccines, there is no treatment that's going to be good for everybody.
至于疫苗，没有一种治疗方法对每个人都有好处。
Somebody very close to me, if given Dexedrine, puts her to sleep.
和我很亲近的人，如果给她服用 Dexedrine，就能让她入睡。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Dexedrine is basically speed.
右旋糖酐基本上是速度。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Puts her to-- And so when we recognize the uncertainty inherent in all of these things, I think we don't mandate things in quite the same way.
让她——所以当我们认识到所有这些事情固有的不确定性时，我认为我们不会以完全相同的方式强制执行事情。
Now, you can mandate that people wear masks, but it shouldn't be that people wear masks because we're absolutely certain that masks should be worn.
现在，你可以强制人们戴口罩，但不应该是人们戴口罩，因为我们绝对确定应该戴口罩。
There are other arguments to be made why people should wear masks.
为什么人们应该戴口罩还有其他争论。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or not wear masks.
或者不戴口罩。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Or not wear masks.
或者不戴口罩。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Whatever the case is going to be.
无论情况如何。
I think it's important that in the medical world, that I think-- I gave this talk at one point, and I thought I was talking to 5,000 women with breast cancer.
我认为在医学界，我认为这一点很重要——我曾经做过这个演讲，我以为我正在与 5,000 名患有乳腺癌的女性交谈。
And it turned out there were lots and lots of physicians there.
事实证明那里有很多很多医生。
If I had known that, I might have spoken a little differently.
如果我知道这一点，我的说法可能会有所不同。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I've been in that circumstance.
我也曾遇到过这样的情况。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
And instead afterwards, I said, "Oh my goodness," because I was not flattering.
相反，事后我说：“哦，天哪”，因为我没有奉承。
I have great respect for most of these people.
我非常尊重其中的大多数人。
But then I found out afterwards that they were thrilled because they know they don't know.
但后来我发现他们很兴奋，因为他们知道自己不知道。
And operating on the world with an awareness that you You can't be sure leads to a different humility, a different way of appreciating other people when they disagree with you, and so on.
带着“你无法确定”的意识来对待世界，会带来不同的谦逊，当别人与你意见不同时，也会以不同的方式欣赏他们，等等。
And I don't know how you do that at the higher level, government and so on.
我不知道你在更高级别、政府等方面是如何做到这一点的。
But this is maybe a silly example, but meaningful to me.
但这可能是一个愚蠢的例子，但对我来说很有意义。
So I spend a lot of time in Mexico, and there's this very busy intersection, and there are no stop signs, there are no traffic lights, and there are no accidents, because everybody knows there's no traffic light, there's no stop sign.
所以我在墨西哥呆了很多时间，那里有一个非常繁忙的十字路口，没有停车标志，没有红绿灯，也没有事故，因为每个人都知道没有红绿灯，没有停车标志。
You have to pay attention to what's going on.
你必须注意正在发生的事情。
So lots of these rules and laws divert attention to as if there's only one thing that matters.
因此，许多规则和法律转移了人们的注意力，就好像只有一件事是重要的。
So when you're told to drive 60 miles an hour, what does that mean?
那么，当您被告知要以每小时 60 英里的速度行驶时，这意味着什么？
And that if you drive 70, you're going to get a ticket.
如果你开车 70 英里，你就会收到罚单。
Okay, so if you're not afraid of getting the ticket, but there are other considerations to how fast you might go.
好吧，如果您不怕抢到票，但还有其他因素需要考虑您的行驶速度。
The quality of your car, the quality of the roads, is it raining at the moment?
你的汽车质量，道路质量，现在正在下雨吗？
How uncomfortable or comfortable the passengers are.
乘客的不舒服或舒适程度。
And all of this, and much more, gets lost by having the rule 60, as if that somehow is an absolute truth.
所有这一切，以及更多的东西，都因为规则 60 而消失了，就好像这在某种程度上是绝对真理一样。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, and experience matters, at least in my view.
是的，经验很重要，至少在我看来。
So for instance, going back to vaccines, right?
比如说，回到疫苗，对吧？
I'm not trying to create unnecessary-
我并不是想创造不必要的-
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
controversy here, but it's absolutely clear to me that there are people who believe that, for instance, the COVID vaccines were immensely valuable.
这里存在争议，但我绝对清楚有人相信，例如，新冠疫苗非常有价值。
On the whole, it saved lives, et cetera.
总的来说，它拯救了生命等等。
And there are other people who are absolutely convinced that the vaccines caused injury, perhaps to them or to people that they know.
还有其他人绝对相信疫苗对他们或他们认识的人造成了伤害。
And both sides, as it were, seem to know a lot about-
双方似乎都了解很多——
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Their side
他们这边
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
their side.
他们这边。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And so the discussions aren't really discussions-
所以讨论并不是真正的讨论——
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
because the people that felt that they had a vaccine injury know an immense amount-
因为那些感觉自己受到疫苗伤害的人知道很多——
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
about that injury, the context-
关于那次受伤，背景是——
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Sure
当然可以
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and others who had it.
以及其他拥有它的人。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The people who had a different experience of the vaccines or have a different stance of the COVID vaccine know a tremendous amount about the statistics and maths of what the general outcomes were-
对疫苗有不同经历或对新冠疫苗有不同立场的人对一般结果的统计和数学了解很多——
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
as a consequence.
结果。
Okay, so it's futile, right?
好吧，所以这是徒劳的，对吧？
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's not a meaningful discussion, and then what ends up happening-
这不是一个有意义的讨论，然后最终会发生什么——
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
But it didn't have to be that way.
但事情本来不必如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
We go back to the beginning, and in school, you're asked a question and expected to give a single answer.
我们回到最初，在学校里，你会被问到一个问题，并期望你给出一个答案。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Life would be so different for us as we grow up if you gave multiple answers to whatever the question was.
如果你对任何问题给出多个答案，随着我们的成长，生活对我们来说将会如此不同。
That immediately would make clear that there are alternative perspectives.
这立即表明存在其他观点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Yep.
是的。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Just a very simple change in schools.
只是学校的一个非常简单的改变。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, then, I'd like to challenge an idea, since that seems to be challenging assumptions.
那么，我想挑战一个想法，因为这似乎挑战了假设。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
One of my ideas?
我的想法之一？
No.
不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, not one of your ideas.
不，这不是你的想法之一。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Oh, good.
哦，很好。
Then it wouldn't challenge me.
那么它就不会挑战我了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd like to challenge the assumption that as people get older, they become more set in their ways.
我想挑战这样一种假设：随着年龄的增长，人们的生活方式会变得更加固定。
Because many times today, I'm hearing that as one, and I'm getting older, I now can say I'm so happy, I can say I'm almost 50.
因为今天很多次，我作为一个人听到这样的话，而且我年纪越来越大了，我现在可以说我很高兴，我可以说我快50岁了。
I actually love getting older.
我其实很喜欢变老。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
You're a baby.
你还是个婴儿。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I feel better now.
我现在感觉好多了。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Me too.
我也是。
Me too.
我也是。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I feel better now at almost 50 than I did in my 20s.
我现在快 50 岁了，感觉比 20 多岁时好多了。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Psychologically and physically.
心理上和身体上。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I felt great then.
那时我感觉很棒。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So I challenge the assumption that we get worse with age.
所以我对“随着年龄的增长我们会变得更糟”的假设提出质疑。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah, no, I'm with you.
是的，不，我和你在一起。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
And I'm much older than you are.
而且我比你大很多。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So do we get set in our ways, or maybe we're more flexible-
那么我们是按自己的方式固定，还是更灵活——
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in our thinking.
在我们的思维中。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
I think that the older you are, and say you've tried different ways of doing something, and there's a particular way that works for you.
我认为随着年龄的增长，你已经尝试过不同的做事方式，并且有一种特定的方式适合你。
And it doesn't matter if the other way is faster, is prettier, is whatever.
另一种方式是否更快、更漂亮等等都没关系。
This works.
这有效。
And so you can be seen as set in your way because you know it doesn't really matter.
所以你会被视为固守自己的方式，因为你知道这并不重要。
I could do it that way, that way, or this way.
我可以那样做，那样做，或者这样做。
I'm going to continue to do it this way.
我将继续这样做。
I think as you get older, presumably, you've had more mindful experience, because if you're a robot, you're not going to be learning anything, and getting more set or less set is an irrelevant question.
我认为，随着年龄的增长，你可能会有更多的正念体验，因为如果你是一个机器人，你就不会学到任何东西，而获得更多或更少的设置是一个无关紧要的问题。
But I remember, this goes back to the pancreas, my not eating the pancreas.
但我记得，这要追溯到胰腺，我不吃胰腺。
I really believed I had to eat that pancreas to show that I was all grown up.
我真的相信我必须吃掉那个胰腺才能表明我已经长大了。
So you get a little older, and you realize.
所以当你长大一点，你就会意识到。
I wrote this blog once a long time ago where you're two years old, and you fall, and you're screaming bloody murder because you scraped your leg.
很久以前我写过这个博客，当时你两岁，你摔倒了，你尖叫着该死的谋杀，因为你擦伤了你的腿。
And then you're seven years old, and Johnny or Janie didn't send you a Valentine, and you're distraught.
然后你七岁了，约翰尼或珍妮没有给你寄情人节礼物，你心烦意乱。
And then you're 13 years old, and you have a pimple, and oh my god, no one's ever going to find me attractive.
然后你 13 岁了，长了一个痘痘，天哪，没人会觉得我有魅力。
And it goes on and on, and at some point, this was all kind of silly.
这样的事情一直持续着，在某些时候，这一切都有点愚蠢。
And with that, you become easier, but sometimes that easier can be misunderstood by others.
这样，你就会变得更容易，但有时这种更容易会被别人误解。
So let me give you an example.
让我举个例子。
And I talk about this in the book when I talk about three levels.
我在书中谈到三个层次时也谈到了这一点。
And the example I use, The New Yorker is a wonderful magazine.
我举的例子是，《纽约客》是一本很棒的杂志。
But let's say we have three levels.
但假设我们有三个级别。
Level one, people who don't read The New Yorker.
第一级，不读《纽约客》的人。
Level two, people who read The New Yorker.
第二级，读《纽约客》的人。
Level three, people who don't read The New Yorker anymore.
第三级，不再读《纽约客》的人。
We could have them read it again, but let's just skip for now.
我们可以让他们再读一遍，但我们现在就跳过吧。
Okay?
好的？
Level one, not reading, and those not reading it anymore are very different.
第一级，不读和不再读的人有很大不同。
But they're seen as the same by the level twos.
但在二级人员看来，他们是一样的。
Level two people are the bane of my existence.
二级人是我存在的祸根。
All right.
好的。
So let's say you're young, you're uninhibited, level one.
假设你还年轻，不羁，一级。
Then you're like most people, you become very inhibited Then hopefully you get to a certain point in life, you say, "Who cares?" And you become disinhibited.
然后你就像大多数人一样，你变得非常压抑，然后希望你能到达人生的某个阶段，你说，“谁在乎呢？”你变得不受约束。
Not uninhibited, because you know the rule, you're just choosing not to follow it.
并不是不羁，因为你知道规则，只是你选择不遵守它。
But those at the level two will see the level three and think they're level ones, because you can't see beyond your own level of development.
但那些处于第二级的人会看到第三级并认为他们是第一级，因为你无法看到超越自己发展水平的东西。
When I was young, especially if I'm on an important show like yours, Andrew, and we just took a break for a minute and if I had eaten something and I got a spot on my sweater, I'd sit like this, not even realizing how stupid does this look, right?
当我年轻的时候，尤其是当我参加像你这样的重要节目时，安德鲁，我们只是休息了一分钟，如果我吃了东西并且我的毛衣上有一个污点，我会像这样坐着，甚至没有意识到这看起来有多愚蠢，对吧？
But that no one should see that I got...
但不应该让任何人看到我...
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
God forbid you're human, you spilled a piece of food.
上帝保佑你是人类，你洒了一块食物。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
You get to a certain, who cares?
你达到了某个目标，谁在乎呢？
So I do this thing with my students and it's very simple, but it has a very big effect on them, where I tell them, "You can't come to class next week unless you're wearing two different shoes." It's very hard.
所以我和我的学生一起做这件事，虽然很简单，但对他们有很大的影响，我告诉他们，“除非你穿两双不同的鞋子，否则你下周不能来上课。”这很难。
Some won't come to class.
有些人不会来上课。
Most come.
大多数都来了。
Then a large majority wear two different shoes that look the same.
然后，大多数人会穿两双看起来相同的不同鞋子。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Two different black sneakers that-
两款不同的黑色运动鞋——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They get it.
他们明白了。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
And then you have the bold where you got a red and a black sneaker.
然后是大胆的红色和黑色运动鞋。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's cool.
太酷了。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
And we talk about and they, nobody even notice.
我们谈论他们，甚至没有人注意到。
And if they notice, what are they noticing?
如果他们注意到了，他们注意到了什么？
Somebody who knows you is not going to judge you differently because you're wearing two different...
认识你的人不会因为你穿着两件不同的衣服而对你做出不同的评价...
They're going to assume there's some reason for it.
他们会认为这是有原因的。
And those who don't know you, don't know you, so what do you care?
而那些不认识你的人，也不认识你，那你在乎什么呢？
So this wonderful young woman, I do this in my seminar as well, that was in the lecture class.
这位出色的年轻女士，我也在我的研讨会上（在讲座课上）这样做了。
She comes in, she goes, "Professor Langer, you won't believe what happened." I said, "What happened?" She said, "I'm in the elevator.
她进来后说道：“兰格教授，你不会相信发生了什么。”我说：“发生什么事了？”她说：“我在电梯里。”
There's this guy.
有这个人。
He looks at my feet, he looks at my face, he looks at my feet, he looks at my face, he looks at my feet, and he points and he says, 'Was that intentional?' You know what I did?" I said, "No. What did you do?" She said, "I looked at his feet, I looked at his face, I looked at his feet, I looked...
他看着我的脚，他看着我的脸，他看着我的脚，他看着我的脸，他看着我的脚，他指着我说，“这是故意的吗？”你知道我做了什么吗？”我说：“没有。你做了什么？”她说：“我看着他的脚，我看着他的脸，我看着他的脚，我看着......
I pointed to his feet and said to him, 'Was that...'"
我指着他的脚对他说，‘那是不是……’”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So good.
太好了。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
And when people recognize that everything is sort of, in some sense, up for grabs, that none of it really matters, it's so freeing.
当人们认识到一切在某种意义上都是可以争夺的，一切都不重要时，它是如此自由。
And there's so many ways that we constrict ourselves.
我们有很多方式来限制自己。
And to make it an answer to your question, hopefully, you get older and you realize that most of this, it just doesn't matter.
为了回答你的问题，希望当你长大后你会意识到，这一切并不重要。
Now, you can learn that when you're younger.
现在，你可以在年轻的时候学习这一点。
All you need to do is recognize that those people who you think are thinking you're X, there are other people who are going to go, "Yay, you're X." That you may love me because I'm trusting, you may dislike me because I'm gullible.
你需要做的就是认识到，那些你认为认为你是 X 的人，还有其他人会说：“是的，你是 X。”你可能因为我信任而爱我，你可能因为我容易受骗而不喜欢我。
So you can't please everybody, not because your behavior is unpleasant, but because all of it is up for their own definition, and you can't control the way they're going to see it.
所以你不能取悦所有人，不是因为你的行为令人不快，而是因为这一切都取决于他们自己的定义，而你无法控制他们的看法。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's like our sense of justice kind of gets in the way sometimes.
就好像我们的正义感有时会成为障碍。
Sense of justice can be very important in society, so don't get me wrong.
正义感在社会中非常重要，所以请不要误会我的意思。
But, for instance, recently I had an experience where a news story came out.
但是，例如，最近我有一次新闻报道的经历。
It wasn't about me.
这不是关于我的。
But-
但是——
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
And those are the only ones you read, right?
这些是你唯一读过的，对吧？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No. But it came out and the headline was, well, I'm just going to say what it was, that so and so's home, this famous person's home, was destroyed in the LA fires.
不。但它出来了，标题是，好吧，我只想说那是什么，某某的家，这位名人的家，在洛杉矶大火中被毁了。
Had a description of what had happened.
对所发生的事情进行了描述。
It had a photograph of the home before and after the devastation.
上面有一张房屋被毁之前和之后的照片。
And I immediately got upset because that was not their home.
我立即感到不安，因为那不是他们的家。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Oh.
哦。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That was my home.
那是我的家。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Oh, my goodness.
哦，天哪。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay, now, I hadn't lived in that home in a while, so there was no reason for them to say that it was my home.
好吧，我已经有一段时间没住在那个家了，所以他们没有理由说那是我的家。
I wasn't upset that they didn't say it was my home.
我并不因为他们没有说那是我的家而感到不安。
But there was my Toyota 4Runner parked in the driveway.
但我的丰田 4Runner 停在车道上。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Oh, wow.
哦，哇。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Basically, the whole thing was made up.
基本上，整个事情都是编出来的。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
It was negative.
结果是否定的。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I actually know the reporter because they had tried to contact me once before.
我实际上认识这位记者，因为他们之前曾尝试联系过我一次。
They had somehow got ahold of my phone number, which frustrates me, in addition to that.
他们以某种方式掌握了我的电话号码，这让我很沮丧。
And I realized-
我意识到——
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
That was my fault.
那是我的错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I realized they're just making up lies.
我意识到他们只是在编造谎言。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They're not even attempting to fact-check.
他们甚至没有尝试进行事实核查。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Now, this was a minor thing, whose home it was, perhaps.
现在，这只是一件小事，也许这是谁的家。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But they made a bunch of issues around this.
但他们围绕这个提出了很多问题。
And then another article came out about this person, and another one, and basically, I don't believe anything that I read-
然后又出现了关于这个人的另一篇文章，还有另一篇文章，基本上，我不相信我读到的任何内容——
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
certainly from that particular venue.
当然是从那个特定的地点。
And then I started to realize that probably half or more of what we read in traditional popular press is just made up.
然后我开始意识到，我们在传统大众媒体上读到的内容可能有一半或更多都是编造的。
And no one's fact-checking this stuff because how could they?
没有人对这些东西进行事实核查，因为他们怎么可能呢？
How could they know?
他们怎么知道？
And of course, I'm not going to pursue this in any kind of legal way.
当然，我不会以任何合法方式追求这一点。
I don't really care.
我真的不在乎。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But my sense of justice is what frustrated me.
但我的正义感却让我感到沮丧。
And as soon as I went-
我一去——
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
But what difference does it make?
但这有什么区别呢？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
but that's actually kind of funny.
但这实际上有点有趣。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This reporter, so desperate for a story-
这位记者，非常渴望一个故事——
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Sorry
抱歉
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and to capitalize on the horrible events, felt that they needed to do it.
为了利用这些可怕的事件，他们觉得他们需要这样做。
And I thought, this is ridiculous, and our species is just so weird.
我想，这太荒谬了，我们这个物种真是太奇怪了。
This is what I always default to in the end-
这就是我最后总是默认的-
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
whether or not it's about technology, about something else.
无论是关于技术还是其他事情。
Real tragedies are real tragedies, and when those happen, as the fires were, it upsets me, but so much of what grabs our attention and the drama of things is just humans being ridiculous.
真正的悲剧就是真正的悲剧，当这些事情发生时，就像火灾一样，它让我感到不安，但吸引我们注意力的事情和事情的戏剧性只是人类的荒谬。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sometimes lying, sometimes in service to one thing, or pretending it's in service to justice when in fact it's in service to themselves or a combination of things.
有时撒谎，有时是为了一件事，或者假装是为了正义，而实际上是为了他们自己或几件事的组合。
And I think as I've hit this, what I hope is a new vista-
我想当我达到这个目标时，我希望看到一个新的景象——
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Almost 50
快50了
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in my life, I'm thinking to myself, wow, we're really obvious.
在我的生活中，我对自己说，哇，我们真的很明显。
We're so obviously silly.
我们显然很愚蠢。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The game...
游戏...
I bring up Rick Rubin again.
我再次提到里克·鲁宾。
He has this saying that he repeats over and over to me.
他对我一遍又一遍地重复这句话。
He said, "There are only two truths Nature and professional wrestling.
他说：“只有两个真理：自然和职业摔角。
He loves professional wrestling.
他热爱职业摔跤。
He watches hours and hours of professional wrestling.
他观看了好几个小时的职业摔角比赛。
And I said, "Why do you do that?"
我说：“你为什么这么做？”
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Isn't that-
那不是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
He said, "It's made up and everyone knows it's made up."
他说：“这是编造的，每个人都知道这是编造的。”
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
But it doesn't matter, because the dance of-
但这并不重要，因为舞蹈——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Which is why it actually is-
这就是为什么它实际上是-
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
one of the few things that's real.
为数不多的真实事物之一。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because we all know it's made up.
因为我们都知道这是编出来的。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So whether or not they become allies or they become enemies in a given match, or whether or not somebody breaks the rules and the ref pretends they don't see, it's theater.
因此，无论他们在一场特定的比赛中是否成为盟友或成为敌人，或者是否有人违反规则而裁判假装他们没有看到，这都是戏剧。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it's designed to show you the theater that is human nature.
它旨在向您展示人性的戏剧。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd never had any appreciation for professional wrestling.
我从来没有欣赏过职业摔跤。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Well, and-
嗯，还有——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But he's right.
但他是对的。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's just-- And so once you start looking, it's all made up.
只是——所以一旦你开始寻找，一切都是编造出来的。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
No, if you ask yourself-- Well, it doesn't have to be made up or not.
不，如果你问自己——嗯，它不一定是编出来的。
If you ask yourself what difference does it make?
如果你问自己这有什么区别？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The wrestling?
摔跤？
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
No, any of it.
不，任何一个。
So it's your house, it's somebody else's house.
所以这是你的房子，也是别人的房子。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Exactly.
正是如此。
I realized I was the one being ridiculous.
我意识到我才是那个可笑的人。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm upset because there's some injustice.
我很沮丧，因为有一些不公平的事情发生。
Because what?
因为什么？
Because I don't want my forerunner in a news article-
因为我不想让我的先驱出现在新闻文章中——
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
about someone else's home.
关于别人家的事。
Maybe that person had a home that looked very similar.
也许那个人有一个看起来非常相似的家。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But I guess it was the break with my assumption that the traditional media-
但我想这打破了我的假设，即传统媒体——
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
But there's some-- Yeah
但有一些——是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
tries to get things right.
努力把事情做好。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That they at least try.
他们至少尝试过。
And in this case, the person clearly didn't even try.
而在这种情况下，这个人显然根本就没有尝试过。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Wasn't trying.
没有尝试。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They had access to the real information.
他们可以获得真实的信息。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
But if you say there's-
但如果你说有——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They chose to lie
他们选择了谎言
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
...
...
if you say there's something to be learned, regardless of whether it's true or not.
如果你说有东西要学，不管它是真是假。
I thought you were going someplace else with this, so my mind wanted to-- I thought you were talking about the tragedy of a fire, which is an example I use in "The Mindful Body" to show that events are not good, bad.
我以为你会带着这个去别的地方，所以我的思想想要——我以为你在谈论一场火灾的悲剧，这是我在“正念身体”中使用的一个例子，以表明事件不是好是坏。
Rather, our view of the event is what makes it good or bad.
相反，我们对事件的看法决定了事件的好坏。
And so I had this experience.
所以我就有了这样的经历。
I was at a friend's house for dinner.
我在朋友家吃晚饭。
I come back late, which never happens.
我回来晚了，这种事从来没有发生过。
And all of my neighbors were outside because my house had burned down.
因为我的房子被烧毁了，所以我所有的邻居都在外面。
And which is pretty scary.
这非常可怕。
Okay.
好的。
A couple of funny things happened.
发生了几件有趣的事情。
They said they were able to save my dogs, which, that wasn't funny, that was wonderful.
他们说他们能够拯救我的狗，这并不好笑，但这真是太棒了。
But they couldn't save the parrot.
但他们没能拯救这只鹦鹉。
I said, "Parrot?
我说：“鹦鹉？
I didn't have a parrot." Well, Roger Brown, when he was alive, gave me this stuffed parrot That was in a cage.
我没有养鹦鹉。”好吧，罗杰·布朗在世时，给了我这只关在笼子里的毛绒鹦鹉。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, my.
哦，我的。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Okay, it was on the-- They couldn't save-
好吧，那是在——他们无法拯救——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
As a kid who owned parrots-
作为一个拥有鹦鹉的孩子——
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
They couldn't save-
他们无法拯救——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I was frightened for a moment
我一瞬间被吓到了
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
...
...
couldn't save the parrot.
没能拯救鹦鹉。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
So now I stay at a friend's house, and the next day I call the insurance company, and the person comes over, and he said this was the first time in his 20-year career that the damage was worse than the call.
所以现在我住在朋友家，第二天我给保险公司打电话，那个人过来了，他说这是他20年职业生涯中第一次损失比打电话的还要严重。
Most people, "Oh my God, oh my God, it's not so bad here." I had already lost everything, so it didn't make sense to throw my sanity away after it.
大多数人都会说：“天哪，天哪，这里没那么糟糕。”我已经失去了一切，所以失去理智是没有意义的。
Okay, so that's the first thing.
好的，这是第一件事。
I move into the Charles Hotel, and I'm a sight to be seen with my two little dogs.
我搬进了查尔斯酒店，我和我的两只小狗成了一道风景。
And it's Christmas, then all the presents coming in, were burned, all the ones going out.
圣诞节到了，所有进来的礼物都被烧毁了，所有的礼物都被扔掉了。
It's now Christmas Eve, and I go out for dinner, and I come back to the hotel room, and it's full of gifts.
现在是平安夜，我出去吃晚饭，回到酒店房间，里面装满了礼物。
Not from the owner of the hotel, not from the management, but from the so-called little people, the chambermaids, the people who parked my car, the waiters and waitresses.
不是来自酒店老板，不是来自管理层，而是来自所谓的小人物、女服务员、帮我停车的人、服务员。
Andrew, I tell you, I could not tell that story for months, maybe years, without it bringing tears to my eyes.
安德鲁，我告诉你，我几个月甚至几年都无法讲述这个故事而不让我热泪盈眶。
It was beautiful.
很漂亮。
Every Christmas, I'm reminded about what feels to me the basic goodness of people.
每年圣诞节，我都会想起人们的基本善良。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
And I couldn't tell you, except for one thing, what I lost in that fire.
除了一件事之外，我无法告诉你我在那场火灾中失去了什么。
So-
所以——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
One stuffed parrot.
一只毛绒鹦鹉。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
No, that I don't remember that until right now.
不，直到现在我才记得。
No, it was kind of fun.
不，这很有趣。
I was going to be teaching, as soon as school began again, a large lecture class, and all my notes were burned.
学校一开学，我就要去教一门大型讲座，但我所有的笔记都被烧毁了。
So all my God, what am I going to do?
那么天哪，我该怎么办？
And so what I did was I called a student who got an A in the course the year before, borrowed her notes, and admitted those, and taught the course.
所以我所做的就是打电话给一位前一年在课程中获得 A 的学生，借用了她的笔记，并承认了这些笔记，并教授了这门课程。
But, and it was the best course I ever taught because I was not relying on anything that I would then repeat in any absolute-- I was totally there for each lecture.
但是，这是我教过的最好的课程，因为我不依赖任何我会绝对重复的东西——我完全在场，听完每一堂课。
But the-
但是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What do you think it is about hard events that are life-changing, that anchor our mindfulness?
您认为那些改变生活、锚定我们正念的艰难事件是什么？
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
No. I don't think that they necessarily are.
不，我认为不一定是。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
I think that if something happens, you should take advantage of it and learn something from it.
我认为，如果发生了什么事，你应该利用它并从中学习一些东西。
And so there's data, not from my lab or yours, but that people who have heart attacks, when you live through a heart attack or a stroke, all of a sudden you realize, gee, this is not going to go on forever.
所以有数据，不是来自我的实验室或你的实验室，而是心脏病发作的人，当你经历心脏病发作或中风时，你突然意识到，天哪，这种情况不会永远持续下去。
I've got to start living.
我得开始生活了
And it's a shame.
这是一种耻辱。
I think most people are sealed in unlived lives.
我认为大多数人都被封印在未曾经历过的生活中。
And that you need a heart attack to wake you up or somebody else's death.
并且你需要心脏病发作才能唤醒你或其他人的死亡。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
My postdoc advisor, well, all three of my advisors died, suicide, cancer, cancer.
我的博士后导师，好吧，我的三位导师都死了，自杀，癌症，癌症。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So the joke is, you don't want me to work for you.
所以笑话是，你不想让我为你工作。
But in all ser-- And I was very close with the middle one, but the last one as well.
但总的来说，我非常接近中间的一个，但最后一个也是如此。
And he died of pancreatic cancer-
他死于胰腺癌——
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
as it were.
原来如此。
And we did multiple fes thrifts for him.
我们为他做了很多节俭活动。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Celebrations of life, right?
庆祝生命，对吗？
There's like in academia, they can't get enough fesh thrifts and this.
就像在学术界，他们无法获得足够的鱼类节俭之类的东西。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I'll never forget Ben getting up the celebration of life in front of all the big ups at Stanford and all these people, and editors flew in.
我永远不会忘记本在斯坦福大学的所有大人物和所有这些人以及编辑们飞来的面前庆祝生命。
They were like, over 200 people there.
他们大概有 200 多人。
President of Stanford was there.
斯坦福大学校长也在场。
And he said, "If I had known that I was going to be so celebrated and that people were going to be so kind to me, I would've died a lot earlier.
他说：“如果我知道我会受到如此的庆祝，人们会对我如此友善，我会早死很多。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Stayed home.
呆在家里。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That was the first thing he said.
这是他说的第一句话。
And the second thing he said is, "If I could do it over again," one of these if I could do it over again things, he said, "I would have never agreed to review so many papers, review so many grants, and I would've eaten a lot more sushi and a lot more ice cream." And that was it.
他说的第二件事是，“如果我能重来一次”，其中一件如果我能重来的事情，他说，“我永远不会同意审查这么多论文，审查这么多资助，我会吃更多的寿司和更多的冰淇淋。”就是这样。
He had a good relationship with death.
他与死亡的关系很好。
I interviewed him for hours, even before I had a podcast.
我采访了他几个小时，甚至在我做播客之前。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah, I don't think people-
是的，我不认为人们——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
He knew he was going to die, and he was okay with it
他知道自己会死，但他也坦然接受
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
...
...
when people are afraid of death, I don't think it's really death that they're afraid of.
当人们害怕死亡时，我不认为他们真正害怕的是死亡。
They're afraid of pain.
他们害怕疼痛。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
And having no control at that moment.
并且在那一刻无法控制。
The old people I know, and studying this for so long, I know lots of very old people, none of them seem to be afraid of death.
我认识的老人，研究了这么久，我认识很多很老的人，他们似乎都不害怕死亡。
In fact, I ended my "Counterclockwise" book with a conversation I was having with a friend who was 90-something, and she said, "You know, Ellen, I'm not afraid of dying, but living is such fun." And I think that that's the way most of us should be.
事实上，我以与一位 90 多岁的朋友的对话结束了我的《逆时针》书，她说：“你知道，艾伦，我并不害怕死亡，但生活是如此有趣。”我认为我们大多数人都应该这样做。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
But there's something I wanted to say that we touched on before, and it's not really relevant now, but I'll find a way to make it relevant, about spontaneous remissions.
但我想说的是，我们之前谈到过一些事情，现在已经不太相关了，但我会找到一种方法让它变得相关，关于自发缓解。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
And I said that with my mother, there was a spontaneous remission, and the medical world can't study spontaneous remissions or doesn't study, so they seem infrequent.
我说我母亲有自发缓解，医学界不能研究自发缓解或不研究，所以它们看起来很少见。
And I think that how frequent does something have to be to give people a sense of hope that it's possible?
我认为某件事必须发生多频繁才能让人们产生希望它是可能的感觉？
I don't think it has to be an everyday occurrence.
我认为这不一定是每天都会发生的事情。
Of course, the more frequent it is, the more likely and then...
当然，越频繁，可能性就越大……
But when I think about spontaneous remissions, and I personally think that they're much more common than the medical world is likely to believe.
但当我想到自发缓解时，我个人认为它们比医学界想象的要普遍得多。
Once you're in a hospital, life is very different from the way your health is once you're out of the hospital.
入院后的生活与出院后的健康状况有很大不同。
I don't mean that you're sick in one case and not sick in the other.
我并不是说你在一种情况下生病了，而在另一种情况下则没有生病。
But the attention that's given to it, the degree to which things become self-fulfilling prophecies.
但人们对它的关注程度，以及事情成为自我实现预言的程度。
I think that if you believe that cancer is a killer, which is what people used to believe, then I think there are many ways that the cancer becomes a death sentence, that the body learns to-- Well, even in a very mundane way, if you think you're going to die, you don't do those things that keep you alive.
我认为，如果你相信癌症是杀手，这是人们过去所相信的，那么我认为癌症有很多方式会成为死刑，身体会学会——好吧，即使以一种非常平凡的方式，如果你认为你会死，你就不会做那些让你活下去的事情。
You're not going to go out and get exercise-
你不会出去锻炼——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
...
...
for example, if you thought that was good for you.
例如，如果您认为这对您有好处。
You're then going to die anyway.
无论如何你都会死。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The will to live is a very interesting thing.
生存意志是一件非常有趣的事情。
These superagers, the people that-
这些超级老人，那些人——
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
fall into that category.
属于这一类。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Oh, I hate that.
哦，我讨厌那样。
No, I'm sure.
不，我确定。
Super memorizers, super tasters.
超级记忆力，超级品味者。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
As soon as we make a group of people the super group-
一旦我们把一群人变成超级团体——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
...
...
that says that whatever they're able to do is not available to everybody else.
这就是说，无论他们能做什么，其他人都无法做到。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh.
哦。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
And I don't think that there's any evidence for that.
我认为没有任何证据证明这一点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Well, I align with you on that stance.
嗯，我在这个立场上与你保持一致。
I used the name only because they're sometimes referenced-
我使用这个名字只是因为它们有时会被引用-
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
as such.
如此。
But a focus of the podcast recently has been to emphasize that in that group and others, there's a brain area that's available to everybody because everybody has it, which is this anterior midcingulate cortex, which is activated when people embrace new forms of learning and challenges.
但播客最近的一个焦点是强调，在这个群体和其他群体中，有一个大脑区域可供每个人使用，因为每个人都有它，这就是前中扣带皮层，当人们接受新形式的学习和挑战时，它就会被激活。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it does seem to correlate with maintaining cognitive function-
它似乎确实与维持认知功能相关 -
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
into later age.
进入晚年。
And it's roped into, excuse me, neurally, it is roped into, it's linked up with the dopamine reward circuitry and other circuitries in a way that ties it somewhat to this notion of the will to live being-
对不起，它在神经上被束缚住了，它与多巴胺奖励回路和其他回路联系在一起，在某种程度上将其与生命意志的概念联系起来——
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
related to the embracing new learnings, or at least new challenges.
与接受新的学习，或者至少是新的挑战有关。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Do you know that there was a story way back when, so there's this mental facility, and people are on what's in the vernacular called the hopeless ward.
你知道吗，很久以前有一个故事，所以有一个精神病院，人们住在白话里称为“绝望病房”的地方。
And then they wanted to renovate the ward, so they move all of the people.
然后他们想翻新病房，所以他们把所有的人都搬走了。
So you're in the hopeless ward, now you're in a hopeful, without it being called that.
所以你在绝望的病房里，现在你在充满希望的病房里，虽然不这么称呼。
Then the renovation is finished, and people are returned to their old rooms, and many unexpected deaths occurred.
然后装修完成，人们又回到原来的房间，发生了很多意想不到的死亡事件。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This makes me wonder why we have names for hospitals, like Hospital for Sick Children.
这让我想知道为什么我们给医院起名字，比如病童医院。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I've always been bothered by that title.
我一直被这个标题所困扰。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sorry for anyone that's been treated there and had a great experience, because I imagine it's a great hospital, but-
对于那些在那里接受治疗并获得美好体验的人感到抱歉，因为我认为那是一家很棒的医院，但是-
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
No, did you read "The Mindful Body?" I talk about a mindful hospital, which would be different from the ground up, and am now trying to, in Mexico, Canada, and in the States, Minnesota, trying to put up at least start with a mindful emergency ward and then become a whole mindful hospital.
不，你读过《正念身体》吗？我谈论的是一个正念医院，它从一开始就不同，现在我正在努力，在墨西哥、加拿大和美国明尼苏达州，尝试至少从一个正念急诊室开始，然后成为一个完整的正念医院。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Why don't they call-
他们为什么不打电话——
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
It should be very different.
应该是非常不同的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
For the reasons that I'm presuming you're getting at, but do you know anybody who's ever walked through a hospital door that isn't stressed?
出于我猜你正在理解的原因，但你知道有谁曾经毫无压力地走进医院的大门吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No.
不。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
No.
不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Only walking out.
只能走出去。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
No, and I believe that stress is by far the major killer.
不，我相信压力是迄今为止的主要杀手。
It's a very extreme position, Andrew.
这是一个非常极端的立场，安德鲁。
I was going to do this work with people in China before COVID.
在新冠疫情爆发之前，我就打算和中国人一起做这项工作。
We take, let's say, a few hundred people who are just diagnosed with cancer, varied the cancer, and we find out how stressed they are.
比方说，我们选取了几百名刚刚被诊断出患有癌症的人，对癌症进行了不同的检查，然后我们发现他们的压力有多大。
And nobody's going to be happy Being told they have cancer.
当被告知自己患有癌症时，没有人会高兴。
So we give them a little while, let's give them three weeks to adjust to it.
所以我们给他们一点时间，给他们三周的时间来适应。
Then we measure their stress level every three, four weeks.
然后我们每三、四个星期测量一次他们的压力水平。
I believe the stress level will predict the course of the disease over and above nutrition, genetics, and treatment.
我相信压力水平比营养、遗传学和治疗更能预测疾病的进程。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
And stress is psychological, which takes me back to how all of this can be controlled by our minds.
压力是心理上的，这让我回到了如何通过我们的思想来控制这一切的问题。
But anyway, so you go to a hospital, the first thing you are is stressed.
但无论如何，等你去医院，你首先感受到的就是压力。
You have the people working in the hospital who, especially during COVID, but it was always the case, suffer an enormous amount of burnout.
医院里的工作人员，特别是在新冠疫情期间，但情况总是如此，他们遭受了巨大的倦怠。
Well, what is burnout?
那么，什么是倦怠？
You don't get burnout if you're mindful.
如果你用心的话，你就不会感到倦怠。
If I'm seeing you every day and I'm presuming you're the same Andrew I've seen before, your symptoms are basically the same as, "How are you, Andrew?" I take your temperature, everything is pretty much the same, it can be exhausting because I'm not getting anything.
如果我每天都见到你，并且我假设你就是我以前见过的那个安德鲁，那么你的症状基本上就是“你好吗，安德鲁？”我量了你的体温，一切都差不多，这可能会让我筋疲力尽，因为我什么也没得到。
If, on the other hand, I'm noticing all the new things about you, then I'm being fed, and my neurons are firing, and I'm not going to burn out.
另一方面，如果我注意到关于你的所有新事物，那么我就会得到满足，我的神经元就会放电，我就不会精疲力竭。
Then we have lots of simple things.
然后我们就有很多简单的事情。
So when I was talking to Atul one day, who did some wonderful work on checklists.
因此，有一天，当我与 Atul 交谈时，他在清单方面做了一些出色的工作。
And, in surgery, for instance, if they have a checklist, there are many fewer errors that are made.
例如，在外科手术中，如果他们有一份检查清单，那么所犯的错误就会少得多。
But he had just sent the last draft to the publisher, so he wasn't going to be able to change it.
但他刚刚将最后一份草稿发送给出版商，所以他无法更改它。
I said, "We need a mindful checklist." What is a mindful checklist?
我说：“我们需要一份仔细的清单。”什么是正念清单？
And you remember when we used to travel, and you come back to the States, and you had to fill out these forms, and, "You bringing any livestock?" "No." "Do you have any fruits and vegetables?" You answer three of these, and you don't answer any of the other, you just know it's no, no, no, all the way down the list.
你还记得我们过去旅行时，你回到美国，你必须填写这些表格，然后，“你带牲畜吗？” “不。” “你有水果和蔬菜吗？”你回答了其中的三个，而你不回答其他任何一个，你只知道它是不，不，不，一直在列表中。
So a checklist, and even the checklist in aviation, the pilot, co-pilot, flaps up, throttle open, anti-ice off.
所以有一个检查表，甚至航空界的检查表，飞行员、副驾驶、襟翼打开、油门打开、防冰关闭。
It becomes mindless.
它变得无意识。
So remember the plane that was going from-- The Air Florida flight going from Florida to Washington, DC, so that's one warm climate to another warm climate, and they go flaps up, throttle open, anti-ice off, but there was snow in DC, an unusual event.
所以请记住，佛罗里达航空公司的航班从佛罗里达飞往华盛顿特区，从一个温暖的气候到另一个温暖的气候，飞机打开襟翼，打开油门，关闭防冰装置，但华盛顿下雪了，这是一个不寻常的事件。
The plane crashed because the de-icer was turned off, and people were killed.
飞机因除冰器关闭而坠毁，造成人员死亡。
And the point of it is that a checklist, while better than no checklist, there's a better-than-better way, and we talk a lot about that in "The Mindful Body," that the checklist needs to be a mindful checklist.
重点是，清单虽然比没有清单好，但有一种比更好更好的方法，我们在“正念身体”中谈论了很多，清单需要是一个正念清单。
So not, "Is Andrew in bed?" "Yes." "What position is Andrew in, in the bed?" Not, or, "Does Andrew have two eyes?" But, "How much liquid can you see?"
所以不是“安德鲁在床上吗？” “是的。” “安德鲁在床上处于什么位置？”不是，或者，“安德鲁有两只眼睛吗？”但是，“你能看到多少液体？”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So not yes, no. Going beyond yes, no.
所以不是是，不是。超越是、否。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Where you can only answer the question if you're actually looking at the person.
只有当你真正看着这个人时，你才能回答这个问题。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
So then you're noticing.
那么你注意到了。
Now, the wonderful thing about that is if I'm noticing you and being mindful about aspects of you, you feel noticed.
现在，最美妙的事情是，如果我注意到你并留意你的某些方面，你就会感到被注意到。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
And that's the way you feel cared for.
这就是你感受到被关心的方式。
And then the relationship grows.
然后关系就会发展。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It keeps coming back to powers of observation-
它不断回到观察力——
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
asking questions, depth as opposed to speed.
提出问题，深度而不是速度。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
These seem to be the basic contour of it, yeah?
这些似乎是它的基本轮廓，是吗？
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yes, but it all follows from recognizing you don't know.
是的，但这一切都源于认识到你不知道。
So how do we get people to actually look for the changes in people?
那么我们如何让人们真正发现人的变化呢？
When I was talking about attention to symptom variability, and I said before, imagine you're with somebody who you think they're losing it, they're forgetting.
当我谈到对症状变异性的关注时，我之前说过，想象一下，你和一个你认为他们正在失去这种感觉的人在一起，他们正在忘记。
Now, if you think they're forgetting, you become intolerant every time they forget something because you forgot that it's not willful.
现在，如果你认为他们忘记了，那么每当他们忘记某件事时，你就会变得不宽容，因为你忘记了这不是故意的。
They really just don't remember, number one.
他们真的只是不记得了，第一。
Number two, the only time you're paying attention is when they're forgetting.
第二，你唯一要注意的时候就是他们忘记的时候。
So you've not attended to all the times they're remembering.
所以你并没有关注他们所记得的所有时间。
So the problem seems worse.
所以问题似乎更严重了。
But if you were, in fact, attending to when are they misremembering, what are the circumstances, and you catch it early, you say that the person doesn't forget everything.
但如果你事实上注意到他们什么时候记错了，在什么情况下记错了，而且你很早就发现了，你就会说这个人不会忘记一切。
They forget, I don't know, questions about restaurants, for example.
例如，我不知道他们忘记了有关餐馆的问题。
Well, then, probably they don't care.
好吧，那么，他们可能不在乎。
I'm going to be happy.
我会很高兴。
I'm an eater.
我是个吃货
I'm going to be happy wherever we go.
无论我们去哪里我都会很开心。
And so unless we're going to some place that's phenomenally expensive, or we have to travel, whether we went to restaurant A, B, or C, I might not remember.
所以除非我们要去某个非常昂贵的地方，或者我们必须旅行，否则我们是否去了A、B或C餐厅，我可能不记得了。
For you, since you're very discerning, you're going to know you had a wonderful meal here and a horrible meal in the other three places.
对你来说，既然你很有眼光，你就会知道你在这里吃了一顿美餐，而在其他三个地方吃了一顿糟糕的饭。
So for you, it matters.
所以对你来说，这很重要。
The point is, when somebody doesn't know, why don't they know?
关键是，当有人不知道时，他们为什么不知道？
And if you immediately assume it's because of dementia, you have a catchall and are missing all of the subtleties that, in fact, would lead to different diagnoses.
如果你立即认为这是因为痴呆症，那么你就笼统地说了，而忽略了所有实际上会导致不同诊断的微妙之处。
And so the same thing in the nurse or doctor attending to the patient.
照顾病人的护士或医生也是如此。
If they're attending to the changes and asking themselves why the smaller changes and the things that are not changing.
如果他们关注这些变化并问自己为什么会有较小的变化和没有变化的事情。
I had a student many years ago who had MS, and when somebody would ask her how she is, "She's great." And then one person then said, "But how could you be great?" She goes, "My arms work, my head is working," and went through all the parts of her that are not suffering.
许多年前，我有一个学生患有多发性硬化症，当有人问她怎么样时，“她很棒。”然后一个人接着说：“但是你怎么能伟大呢？”她说，“我的手臂在工作，我的头脑也在工作”，并检查了她身上所有没有受苦的部分。
So you can always attend to what's wrong.
这样您就可以随时关注问题所在。
You can't attend to everything.
你不可能包办一切。
Playing tennis, you could attend to the wonderful shots you made, you can attend to the faults, and that's going to lead to very different states, right?
打网球时，你可以关注自己的精彩击球，也可以关注错误，这会导致截然不同的状态，对吗？
If I attend to every time I hit that ball in a way I didn't think I could hit, I'm going to learn something from it and be motivated to try it again.
如果我每次都以一种我认为自己无法击球的方式进行击球，我就会从中学到一些东西，并有动力再次尝试。
If I attend to every time I screwed up, I'm going to be embarrassed, I'm going to be afraid to expand and experience new things.
如果每次我搞砸了，我都会感到尴尬，我会害怕扩展和体验新事物。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I feel like-
我觉得——
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
I've just combined 12 different areas here.
我刚刚在这里组合了 12 个不同的区域。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, but masterfully.
是的，但是很熟练。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
That's all good.
这一切都很好。
That's good to know.
很高兴知道这一点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Masterfully.
巧妙地。
And what I realized is that we're Always to some extent in choice, as they say.
我意识到，正如他们所说，我们总是在某种程度上做出选择。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I think to some people, that will feel freeing.
我认为对某些人来说，这会感到自由。
Like, I'm always in choice.
就像，我总是在选择。
My house burned down.
我的房子被烧毁了。
Well, who knows what newness that will bring, these kinds of things.
好吧，谁知道会带来什么新鲜事，诸如此类的事情。
But to some people-
但对于某些人来说——
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Only if they believe that there's a right answer.
只有当他们相信有正确答案时。
If you believe there's a right answer, you want someone, "Give me that answer.
如果你相信有一个正确的答案，你需要有人，“给我那个答案。
Which surgery should I have?
我应该接受哪种手术？
Oh my God, I'm supposed to have a house.
天哪，我应该有一个房子。
The house burned, life is over." But if you realize that any experience is only experience through you, and provides opportunities.
房子被烧毁了，生命就结束了。”但是如果你意识到任何经历都只是通过你的经历，并且提供了机会。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I can certainly adopt that.
我当然可以采纳。
I also can feel the parts of me that I assume are what other people experience as well, which is that when one has so many degrees of freedom over how to respond-
我也能感觉到我身上的某些部分，我认为其他人也经历过这种情况，那就是，当一个人在如何回应方面有如此多的自由度时——
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Sure
当然可以
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that itself can feel a bit overwhelming.
这本身就让人感觉有点难以承受。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
No, of course.
不，当然。
So when Erich Fromm wrote "Escape from Freedom," it was that same idea that you can be paralyzed by so many choices.
因此，当埃里希·弗洛姆（Erich Fromm）写下《逃离自由》（Escape from Freedom）时，同样的想法是，你可能会因太多的选择而陷入瘫痪。
But I think that's wrong.
但我认为这是错误的。
I think you're only paralyzed by the choices if implicitly you believe there's a right and a wrong choice.
我认为，只有当你暗自相信选择有对有错时，你才会对选择感到不知所措。
And when you recognize that they're all equal, it just doesn't matter.
当你认识到他们都是平等的时候，一切都不再重要了。
It's easy to choose them.
选择它们很容易。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So it's choose your own adventure.
所以这是选择你自己的冒险。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Yeah.
是的。
Or make whatever you're doing an adventure.
或者让你正在做的任何事情都成为一次冒险。
If I can't be near the one I love, I should love the one I'm near.
如果我不能靠近我所爱的人，我就应该爱我所靠近的人。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
At one time, that was considered-
一度被认为是——
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
I know
我知道
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
okay.
好的。
Well, nowadays, there are a couple things that are more complicated, I would argue.
嗯，我认为现在有一些事情变得更加复杂。
One, earlier you mentioned coddling of people that are-
一，之前你提到过溺爱那些——
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Elderly
老人
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
aged, elderly.
年长的，年长的。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
I hate that word now that I'm 77.
我现在 77 岁了，讨厌这个词。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, you are-
嗯，你是——
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
But I'm a super senior.
但我已经是超级前辈了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No one would guess that you're 77, and yeah, your vitality is undeniable.
没有人会猜到您已经 77 岁了，是的，您的活力是不可否认的。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Oh.
哦。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This notion of coddling.
这种溺爱的观念。
Jonathan Haidt wrote the "Coddling of the American Mind," "Anxious Generation." I have to wonder what it's like for kids growing up nowadays, and teenagers constantly being told about this disorder and that disorder, and-
乔纳森·海特（Jonathan Haidt）撰写了《美国心灵的溺爱》、《焦虑的一代》。我想知道现在长大的孩子是什么样的，青少年不断被告知这种疾病和那种疾病，而且-
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and the idea that if you meet 5 out of 10 of the menu of criteria, that you might even be this thing.
如果你符合标准中的十分之五，那么你甚至可能成为这样的人。
You are blank, as opposed to just having blank or struggling with blank.
你是空白的，而不是只是空白或与空白作斗争。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Everything is...
一切都是...
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
And we certainly over-prescribe medication in this country, certainly compared to other countries.
与其他国家相比，我们在这个国家确实开出过多的药物。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The vast amount of antidepressant and anti-anxiety-
大量的抗抑郁药和抗焦虑药
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
medication is consumed in the United States.
在美国消费药物。
And certainly, those medications can be valuable for people, I would argue, but they are over-prescribed, I would also argue.
当然，我认为这些药物对人们来说可能很有价值，但我也认为它们的处方过多。
So my question is, if one grows up being told that they are fragile, that there's threat everywhere, or even that there's threat everywhere on social media.
所以我的问题是，如果一个人在成长过程中被告知自己很脆弱，到处都存在威胁，甚至社交媒体上到处都存在威胁。
Let's just push into that dent a little bit, too, because that's Jonathan's idea.
让我们也稍微推进一下这个凹痕，因为这是乔纳森的想法。
Sitting here talking to you, that now has me thinking, well, maybe my 18-year-old niece is perfectly capable of navigating this online landscape, and it's just me who's not capable of it, and so I'm going to decide that she's-
坐在这里和你说话，现在我在想，好吧，也许我 18 岁的侄女完全有能力驾驭这个在线环境，而只有我没有能力，所以我要决定她——
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
struggling.
挣扎。
But maybe kids aren't getting enough physical activity, one could argue, on the basis of data.
但根据数据，人们可能会争辩说，孩子们可能没有得到足够的体育活动。
But do you see where I'm going here?
但你明白我要去哪里吗？
When one can pivot to different lenses to look-
当一个人可以转向不同的镜头来观看时——
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Sure
当然可以
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
at something through, it increases the number of options.
在某件事上，它增加了选择的数量。
But then at some point, we have to decide, are we coddling our kids too much?
但到了某个时候，我们必须决定，我们是否过于溺爱孩子了？
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or are we not coddling them too much?
还是我们没有太溺爱他们？
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
It reminds me of an argument back, oh, I guess when I was your age.
这让我想起了一次争论，哦，我猜当我像你这个年纪的时候。
And the question was violence on TV.
问题是电视上的暴力行为。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
And were kids being exposed to this violence becoming more violent?
遭受这种暴力的孩子是否会变得更加暴力？
And I never quite understood it because if you were my child and we were sitting there watching this violence, I'd go, "Oh, ow!" And you would see that my reaction to it was negative, and you'd learn not to engage in that or to recognize the effects on other people.
我从来不太理解这一点，因为如果你是我的孩子，而我们坐在那里观看这场暴力事件，我会说，“哦，哦！”你会发现我对此的反应是消极的，你会学会不参与其中或认识到对其他人的影响。
What I'm saying is that rather than the medium being the message, people say to me, "Is technology good?" Technology isn't anything.
我想说的是，人们对我说，“技术好吗？”，而不是传达信息的媒介。技术什么都不是。
They're tools.
它们是工具。
And if they're used mindfully, they're good.
如果用心使用它们，它们会很好。
If they're used mindlessly, they're not good.
如果盲目地使用它们，那就不好了。
And so I think it's silly.
所以我认为这很愚蠢。
There's data showing that college kids, for example, who use a lot of social media, have lower self-esteem and all of this.
有数据显示，例如，使用大量社交媒体的大学生的自尊心较低等等。
And I present this to them and I say, "This is silly.
我把这个展示给他们并说：“这很愚蠢。
You're not now going to get off Facebook because of these data.
你现在不会因为这些数据而离开 Facebook。
But let's look at it.
但让我们看看它。
You're Harvard students, for God's sakes.
看在上帝的份上，你们是哈佛的学生。
Why is it that you're only going to post the picture where you look the prettiest?" Have the nerve to turn it around.
为什么你只晒你最漂亮的地方的照片？”有勇气扭转局面。
"Hey, would you believe what I looked like last night?" When you're having that bad hair day or something didn't go well, just have the guts to do that.
“嘿，你相信我昨晚的样子吗？”当你的发型很糟糕或者事情进展不顺利时，只要有勇气去做就可以了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
So it's not the social media, it's the lying or the mistaken assumption when you see all of the successes, that that's the more general truth.
所以这不是社交媒体的问题，而是当你看到所有成功时的谎言或错误的假设，这是更普遍的事实。
Everybody but you is having these successes.
除了你之外，每个人都取得了这些成功。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Certainly, social media gives it a literal score for followers and likes-
当然，社交媒体为追随者和喜欢给出了字面上的分数——
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and things of that sort.
以及诸如此类的事情。
So it's thumbs up, thumbs down, literally scoring performance-
所以这是竖起大拇指，竖起大拇指，实际上是对表现进行评分——
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in terms of what other people think.
就其他人的想法而言。
It's certainly training those circuits-
它肯定是在训练那些电路——
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
very robustly, whereas-
非常稳健，而-
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
But if people learn the three levels that I was explaining before, then you'd see that what looks like is not very good, in fact, may be quite something.
但如果人们了解了我之前解释的三个层次，那么你就会发现看起来不太好，事实上可能很不错。
You have people who are poor, and they can't spend a lot of money on their appearance, and then you have everybody else who's spending a lot of money on their appearance.
有些人很穷，他们不能在外表上花很多钱，然后还有其他人在外表上花很多钱。
Then you have some of these very, very rich people Yeah.
然后你就有一些非常非常富有的人 是的。
I had this editor for Mindfulness, wonderful woman.
我有一位正念编辑，很棒的女人。
She's recently died.
她最近去世了。
And the first time we went out, this is when I was young, and it was wonderful how they're going to send me all these free books, and they take me out all the time to get me to publish with this company as opposed to that company.
我们第一次出去，那是在我年轻的时候，他们会寄给我所有这些免费书籍，真是太棒了，他们一直带我出去，让我在这家公司而不是那家公司出版。
And I'll never forget this.
我永远不会忘记这一点。
We go for this meal, and she looked poor.
我们去吃这顿饭，她看起来很穷。
So I didn't eat anything.
所以我什么也没吃。
I chose the cheapest thing on the menu because I knew she was paying.
我选择了菜单上最便宜的东西，因为我知道她付钱了。
Then I found out she was one of the richest people in New England.
然后我发现她是新英格兰最富有的人之一。
So that's the level three, where you have so much, you hide it.
这就是第三级，你有很多东西，你就把它隐藏起来。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, this is interesting because when I was growing up, unless people had money to purchase things, they would drive older cars and things like that.
嗯，这很有趣，因为在我成长的过程中，除非人们有钱购买东西，否则他们会开旧车之类的东西。
With credit, that changed.
有了信用，情况就改变了。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I have friends who like to wear very fancy watches.
我有一些朋友喜欢佩戴非常精美的手表。
I also have friends who have far more money than them and choose to wear no watch.
我也有朋友比他们有钱得多，却选择不戴手表。
So it's getting harder-
所以越来越难了——
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
to discern, except at the extremes, of course.
当然，除了极端情况之外。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's getting harder to discern who has what, and-
辨别谁拥有什么变得越来越困难，而且——
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
maybe that's a good thing.
也许这是一件好事。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
I would think so.
我也这么认为。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Again, at the extremes, it's obvious.
同样，在极端情况下，这是显而易见的。
The homeless issue in Los Angeles and everywhere in California is so troubling and so sad, what's happening.
洛杉矶和加州各地的无家可归者问题是如此令人不安和悲伤，正在发生的事情。
But setting that aside, I think nowadays we have less information about people's values, even just by looking at them.
但抛开这一点，我认为现在我们对人们价值观的了解越来越少，即使只是通过观察也是如此。
When I was growing up, if somebody wore a particular T-shirt with a particular band, you kind of knew if you were part of the same group.
在我成长的过程中，如果有人穿着带有特定乐队的特定 T 恤，你就知道自己是否属于同一团体。
All of that's gone now.
现在这一切都消失了。
It's all leveled.
都平整了
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
But people could be asked at any stage, why is somebody dressed this way?
但人们在任何阶段都可能会被问到，为什么有人穿成这样？
Why is somebody doing what they're doing?
为什么有人做他们正在做的事情？
And when asked now, you're only given a single answer.
现在当你被问到时，你只会得到一个答案。
When you're given multiple answers, you see the three levels.
当您获得多个答案时，您会看到三个级别。
They're doing it for this wonderful reason, for this awful reason.
他们这样做是出于这个美妙的原因，也是出于这个可怕的原因。
It has this meaning and that meaning.
有这个意义，也有那个意义。
And that's what you want, things to be obscured.
这就是你想要的，让事情变得模糊。
You don't want to be pigeonholed.
你不想被归类。
Because if you think you know what I'm going to say because of this belief of who I am, you're not going to listen to me, and then we're not going to have a conversation that's going to be interesting, and that's a waste.
因为如果你因为相信我是谁而认为你知道我要说什么，你就不会听我的，然后我们就不会进行有趣的对话，这是一种浪费。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I know that you're not a fan of particular activities as a way to increase longevity or particular activities as a way to increase mindfulness, but could we say that having somewhat of a mindset of playfulness with ideas-
我知道你不喜欢通过特定的活动来延长寿命，也不喜欢通过特定的活动来提高正念，但我们是否可以说，对想法有一种玩乐的心态——
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Oh, without question
哦，毫无疑问
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and one's environment could potentiate longevity?
环境可以延长寿命吗？
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Sure.
当然。
So I have these lyrics in the book of a friend of mine, Zoe Lewis, wonderful entertainer, and she sings a song that I just love, "You're Never Too Old to Be Young." And sure, I think that one should be playful to be playful.
所以我把这些歌词放在我的朋友佐伊·刘易斯（Zoe Lewis）的书中，她是一位出色的艺人，她唱了一首我很喜欢的歌，“你永远不会太老而不能年轻”。当然，我认为一个人应该是好玩的。
Now, a side effect of that is I think you'll be happier and healthier.
现在，它的副作用是我认为你会更快乐、更健康。
And if you're happier and healthier, I think you'll live longer.
如果你更快乐、更健康，我想你会活得更久。
But the reason to do it, the problem with most people now is that everything they're doing is for some other reason.
但这样做的原因，现在大多数人的问题是，他们所做的一切都是出于其他原因。
I'm taking this medication so that eventually.
我最终会服用这种药物。
I'm going to the gym so that eventually.
我最终会去健身房。
I think who knows what's going to happen eventually.
我想谁知道最终会发生什么。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I feel lucky that I enjoy exercise and always have, but if I didn't, I don't know what that-
我很幸运，因为我喜欢锻炼并且一直如此，但如果我不这样做，我不知道那会是什么-
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Oh, how you'd get yourself...
哦，你怎么会让自己...
Yeah.
是的。
I don't like exercise that's exercise.
我不喜欢运动，那只是运动。
I was telling somebody this story, actually, just yesterday.
事实上，就在昨天，我正在给别人讲这个故事。
So I was visiting friends this is many years ago in Vero Beach, and they said in the morning, "Let's go to Captain Jack's." So I'm thinking, Captain Jack's, it's going to be breakfast, and I'm thinking, I'm going to have a big breakfast.
很多年前，我在维罗海滩拜访朋友，他们早上说：“我们去杰克船长家吧。”所以我想，杰克船长的，这将是早餐，我想，我要吃一顿丰盛的早餐。
Why not?
为什么不呢？
We're going to take a long walk to get there, and I'm very excited about it.
我们要步行很长一段路才能到达那里，对此我感到非常兴奋。
So we get down to the beach, and we're walking to Captain Jack's, and then there's this stick in the sand that says on it, "Captain Jack's." All it is was the endpoint to our walk.
所以我们到了海滩，步行去杰克船长家，然后沙子里有一根棍子，上面写着“杰克船长家”。这只是我们步行的终点。
Well, for me, if I had known the walk was just for the walk, I probably would've enjoyed it much less.
好吧，对我来说，如果我知道散步只是为了散步，我可能就不会那么喜欢它了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
That if I'm in Paris and shopping or window shopping, I walk 10 miles a day and enjoy myself thoroughly.
如果我在巴黎购物或逛街，我每天会步行 10 英里，并且彻底享受生活。
But if you said, "Let's go for a walk of even five miles," and it's just to walk, now this is mindless.
但如果你说：“我们去散散步吧，哪怕是五英里”，而只是步行，那么这就是无意识的。
I'm not suggesting this is a good thing.
我并不是说这是一件好事。
But activities that are meant to be fun and that are easy to engage in are fun, will be good for you.
但那些有趣且易于参与的活动对你来说是有好处的。
And if you see it as exercise, if you're doing it for some other reason, it's a shame because even the exercise for exercise sake should...
如果你将其视为锻炼，如果你出于其他原因这样做，那就太可惜了，因为即使是为了锻炼而进行的锻炼也应该......
I won't do it if it isn't fun.
如果不好玩我就不会做。
I don't know if that's a privileged position.
我不知道这是否是一种特权。
Now, that's not that I say I won't do it if it isn't fun.
现在，我并不是说如果不有趣我就不做。
I think that this is something that I do well, is to make almost anything be fun.
我认为这是我擅长的事情，就是让几乎所有事情变得有趣。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, that's a great skill.
嗯，这是一项很棒的技能。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I was talking to my mom last night, and she was saying, "Not much is happening here." And I kept saying, "No, tell me, what are you guys up to?" It'd been a while, and she said, "Well, I don't have this big exciting life." And I said, "What's going on?" And she said, "Okay, well, if you really want to know, there's this new plant weed that's growing in the garden." And she started explaining to me this really interesting weed that has these little yellow flowers.
昨晚我和妈妈说话，她说：“这里没什么事情发生。”我一直说：“不，告诉我，你们在做什么？”已经有一段时间了，她说：“好吧，我的生活不再那么令人兴奋了。”我说：“发生了什么事？”她说：“好吧，如果你真的想知道的话，花园里正在生长这种新的植物杂草。”她开始向我解释这种非常有趣的杂草，它有黄色的小花。
And my mom loves gardening, and so-
我妈妈喜欢园艺，所以-
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
she delights in gardening, and I was delighting in her delight.
她喜欢园艺，我也为她的乐趣而感到高兴。
And when she was done, I said-
当她说完后，我说——
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Well, that's something
嗯，那是个东西
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
"That's actually the kind of thing I'd love to talk about-
“这实际上是我很想谈论的事情——
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and hear more about," because I also know my own experience.
并听到更多”，因为我也知道我自己的经历。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So I didn't need to talk about what's going on on the podcast or what's going on-
所以我不需要谈论播客上发生了什么或者正在发生什么-
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in my daily life, or the incredible breeds of dogs that I'm considering getting, maybe all of them, because I was interested in what was going on in her garden.
在我的日常生活中，或者我正在考虑养的令人难以置信的狗品种，也许是所有这些，因为我对她花园里发生的事情很感兴趣。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And so what was trivial to her was actually interesting to me, and it-
所以对她来说微不足道的事情实际上对我来说很有趣，而且它——
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
represented a really good bridge to a number of things.
代表了通往许多事物的真正良好的桥梁。
I have to say that we were talking earlier about How one frames past, present, and future.
我不得不说，我们之前讨论的是如何构建过去、现在和未来。
I don't know if we were talking about it in that way, but in thinking about age, longevity, and what's possible, the word that came to mind that I'd like to just pressure test a little bit is nostalgia.
我不知道我们是否以这种方式谈论它，但在思考年龄、寿命和可能性时，我想到的我想稍微测试一下的词是怀旧。
And I have this feeling, and I hope I'm wrong because I've been wrong about most things today in a way that I'm learning from, that nostalgia can be perhaps kind of a dangerous line of thinking.
我有这种感觉，我希望我是错的，因为我今天在大多数事情上都错了，我从中学到了，怀旧可能是一种危险的思维方式。
This idea that things used to be great-
这个想法认为事情曾经很棒-
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Oh, yeah
哦，是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
but now they're not.
但现在他们不是了。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Why can't they be like they were?
为什么他们不能像以前那样呢？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And why can't they--
为什么他们不能——
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I thought to myself, what a terrible-
我心想，多么可怕——
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
sense or emotion.
感觉或情感。
And it led me to some practical questions like should we go to high school reunions?
这让我想到了一些实际问题，比如我们应该去参加高中聚会吗？
And I thought, well, no, if all we're going to do is embrace nostalgia.
我想，好吧，不，如果我们要做的就是拥抱怀旧的话。
Yes, if it makes us feel like we're 19 again.
是的，如果这能让我们感觉自己又回到了 19 岁。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yes, exactly.
是的，完全正确。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This kind of thing.
这种事。
And here-
还有这里——
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
you can substitute reunions with should I look at photo albums?
你可以用“我应该看相册吗”来代替“聚会”？
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I don't know how I feel about photos from the past.
不知道现在看到以前的照片有什么感觉。
I used to collect them and cherish them, and now sometimes when I look at them, it just makes me long for something, and I think I need to learn how to pivot through that.
我曾经收集它们并珍惜它们，现在有时当我看着它们时，它只会让我渴望一些东西，我想我需要学习如何解决这个问题。
So what are your thoughts on nostalgia and just notions of how we think about our past in general?
那么，您对怀旧以及我们如何看待过去的看法有何看法？
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Well, I don't think they're very different from what you've already covered.
嗯，我认为它们与您已经介绍过的内容没有太大不同。
In that fire, I lost all the photos, and it didn't occur to me that I had lost all of them for years because I didn't look at them.
在那场火灾中，我丢失了所有的照片，我没有想到我已经丢失了所有这些照片，因为我没有看过它们。
Period.
时期。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So I get an awful lot-
所以我得到了很多——
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I found a lot of that, so that's very true.
我发现了很多这样的事情，所以这是真的。
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
I think when I was young, some of my friends were keeping a diary, and I never kept a diary.
我想当我年轻的时候，我的一些朋友都在写日记，而我从来不写日记。
And so then my feeling was I'd rather just be living than recording, but it depends on how you record it.
所以我的感觉是我宁愿活着也不愿录音，但这取决于你如何录音。
If you're reliving it while you're recording it, then you're living.
如果你在录制的同时重温它，那么你就还活着。
It's the same thing.
这是同样的事情。
One activity is really no better than another if you're doing it mindfully.
如果你用心去做，一项活动实际上并不比另一项更好。
Now, this is hard for people to accept.
现在，人们很难接受这一点。
And if I say to you that if you're cleaning a toilet, that the distinctions you're drawing are no better or worse than if you're trying to come up with a theory of relativity or understand Einstein's theory of relativity.
如果我对你说，如果你正在打扫厕所，那么你所做出的区分并不比你试图提出相对论或理解爱因斯坦的相对论更好或更坏。
A distinction is a distinction is a distinction.
区别就是区别就是区别。
And so that's why these little things that you're noticing, your mother's weed, is no less important, although she thought you might see it as less important, than your having just interviewed somebody that she thought was phenomenal.
因此，这就是为什么你注意到的这些小事，你母亲的大麻，与你刚刚采访了她认为非凡的人一样重要，尽管她认为你可能认为它不那么重要。
Once you notice, you notice, and that's the whole ballgame.
一旦你注意到了，你就会注意到，这就是整个游戏。
And there's always something to notice.
而且总有一些事情需要注意。
And if you're noticing it without the stress overlay that some people add to their lives, which I can understand, it's no different from a game.
如果你注意到它，而没有一些人给他们的生活带来的压力，我可以理解，这与游戏没有什么不同。
I use this example, and I think that my students must think I'm crazy.
我用这个例子，我想我的学生一定认为我疯了。
So if I believe that, I should come up with a different example.
所以如果我相信这一点，我应该想出一个不同的例子。
But you're flossing your teeth.
但你正在用牙线清洁牙齿。
Now, you can floss your teeth mindlessly, in which case you resent being there, you're spending the time because you're thinking that it's good for you, but you'd rather be doing something else.
现在，你可以不假思索地用牙线清洁牙齿，在这种情况下，你会怨恨在那里，你花时间是因为你认为这对你有好处，但你宁愿做其他事情。
You're not there.
你不在那儿。
You're flossing, but your mind is thinking about a party you're going to go to, for example.
例如，您正在使用牙线，但您的心思却在想着您要去参加的聚会。
To me, make it fun.
对我来说，让它变得有趣。
It's so easy.
太容易了。
You play little games like can I predict how much junk is going to come out, and which teeth, which part.
你可以玩一些小游戏，比如我能预测会有多少垃圾，以及哪些牙齿、哪个部分。
Everything can be made into a game.
一切都可以做成游戏。
I had this-- You can maybe figure out how to bring this product to market, but I have so many of these.
我有这个——你也许可以弄清楚如何将该产品推向市场，但我有很多这样的产品。
It's called Wego, a way of training your child to use the toilet.
它叫Wego，是一种训练孩子使用厕所的方法。
And so it's not very hard.
所以这并不是很难。
You could sell these little vials of chemicals that when you add it, a few drops to urine, it changes color.
你可以出售这些小瓶化学物质，当你将其添加到尿液中时，它会改变颜色。
But so each of these vials will change the color to a different color.
但因此每个小瓶都会将颜色变成不同的颜色。
And the kid-
还有那个孩子——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think adults would buy that.
我想大人都会买的。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
And the kid has to guess, either to the parent or just for themselves, is this going to be yellow, green, blue?
孩子必须猜测，无论是对父母还是自己，这会是黄色、绿色、蓝色吗？
It becomes fun.
它变得有趣。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Gamifying things is one of the great pleasures of parenting.
将事物游戏化是为人父母的最大乐趣之一。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And earlier you were talking about, what do your grandkids call you?
之前您谈到，您的孙子们怎么称呼您？
You're the-
你是——
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Cosmic leader.
宇宙领袖。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Cosmic leader.
宇宙领袖。
You can play these games with them, and then they reach their adolescent and teen years, and then they claim they don't like those games.
你可以和他们一起玩这些游戏，然后他们到了青少年时期，然后他们声称他们不喜欢这些游戏。
But as a former child and then teen, now I delight in some of the games-
但作为一个曾经的孩子和青少年，现在我喜欢一些游戏——
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Sure
当然可以
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that my parents played-
我父母玩过的——
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
with me when I was little because it brings me back to the notions of-
小时候和我在一起，因为它让我回想起-
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
imagination.
想象力。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
No. I think that one of the worst things that the world teaches us is that we have work and we have play, as if these are two distinct categories.
不，我认为这个世界教给我们的最糟糕的事情之一就是我们有工作，我们有娱乐，就好像这是两个截然不同的类别。
In fact, I think if you were to ask somebody just one question to determine how mindful they are, it might be how much do you need a vacation?
事实上，我认为如果你只问某人一个问题来确定他们的专注程度，可能会是你需要多少假期？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I've never taken one, so yeah.
我从来没有拿过，所以是的。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
No. But need and want are two different things.
不。但是需要和想要是两个不同的东西。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
And if I really need a vacation, that means my working is being done mindlessly, and that's a shame.
如果我真的需要休假，那就意味着我的工作是盲目的，这是一种耻辱。
If you can't find a way to do it so you enjoy it, go someplace else.
如果你找不到一种方法让你享受它，那就去别的地方。
It's not worth the price you're paying.
这不值得你付出的代价。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And for people that say, "Well, that's a luxury.
对于那些说“嗯，这是一种奢侈”的人来说。
I need to work in order to survive and feed my family, et cetera-"
我需要工作才能生存并养活我的家人等等——”
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
how does one reconcile that?
如何调和这一点？
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Well, then learn how to make it fun.
好吧，那就学习如何让它变得有趣。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
That Anything can be made fun.
任何事情都可以变得有趣。
Just you make it a game.
只要你把它变成一个游戏。
You try to figure out, guess what's going to happen, see can you do it differently from the last time?
你试着弄清楚，猜猜会发生什么，看看你能做得与上次不同吗？
Can you do it with your eyes closed?
你能闭着眼睛做吗？
It's fun.
很有趣。
You get down, not related to your work, but you get down on all fours and see the world that your cat or your dog sees.
你趴下，与你的工作无关，但你趴下，看到你的猫或你的狗所看到的世界。
Close the lights and see what it's like being blind.
关上灯，看看失明是什么感觉。
Try to get through the day without hearing.
尝试在没有听到任何声音的情况下度过这一天。
I wanted to do this thing 50 years ago, which was to create a building that simulated old age.
50年前我就想做这件事，就是建造一座模拟老年的建筑。
And so if you took the 50-year-old and they spent even a short time in that building where it's colder than usual because there's less oxygen in your blood, your field of vision narrows, that they would expand each of their abilities at a time that it's easy.
因此，如果你带着一个 50 岁的人，他们在那栋比平常更冷的大楼里呆了很短的时间，因为你的血液中的氧气较少，你的视野变窄，他们就会在很容易的时候扩展他们的每项能力。
But the problem with that was a 50-year-old doesn't want to imagine being 80 years old.
但问题是 50 岁的人不想想象自己 80 岁的样子。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You've done some beautiful studies on healing and time perception.
你在治疗和时间感知方面做了一些精彩的研究。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Could you just describe that experiment?
你能简单描述一下那个实验吗？
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I love this paper.
我喜欢这张纸。
I love this experiment so much.
我非常喜欢这个实验。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Peter Ungerleider and I did this, my graduate student.
我的研究生 Peter Ungerleider 和我做了这件事。
We inflict a wound.
我们造成伤口。
Now, it would've been more dramatic if we could really cut you up, but we're not sadists, and even if we were, the review committees wouldn't let us do it.
现在，如果我们真的能把你切开，那就更戏剧化了，但我们不是虐待狂，即使我们是，审查委员会也不会让我们这样做。
So it's a minor wound, but it's still a wound.
所以这是一个小伤口，但它仍然是一个伤口。
And we have people individually sitting in front of a clock.
我们让人们单独坐在时钟前。
Unbeknownst to them, for a third of the people, the clock is going twice as fast as real-time.
他们不知道的是，对于三分之一的人来说，时钟的速度是实时速度的两倍。
For another third of the people, it's going half as fast as real-time.
对于另外三分之一的人来说，速度只有实时速度的一半。
And for the last third, it's going real-time.
最后三分之一是实时的。
And the question is, most people would assume that wound's going to heal how that wound heals.
问题是，大多数人都会认为伤口会如何愈合。
It has nothing to do with the perception of time.
这与时间观念无关。
But it turns out that it healed based on clock time.
但事实证明，它是根据时钟时间治愈的。
Now, when you add that to some of the things that we've already said, you end up with a very different picture.
现在，当你将其添加到我们已经说过的一些内容中时，你最终会得到一幅非常不同的画面。
You broke your arm, and you ask the doctor, "How long is it going to take to heal?" How does he know, or she know?
你摔断了手臂，你问医生：“需要多长时间才能痊愈？”他怎么知道，或者她怎么知道？
It's a ridiculous question.
这是一个可笑的问题。
Lots of people have broken arms.
很多人的手臂都骨折了。
Even if this were somebody who studied broken arms and he stopped studying yesterday, today, there are new people with broken arms that might have different rates of healing.
即使这是一个研究断臂的人，他昨天停止了学习，今天，也会有新的断臂人，他们的愈合速度可能会不同。
But people give an answer, and depending on the way the doctor gives that answer, I think is important, because if the doctor says, "It's going to take you," and I'm making this, I don't know how long it takes, "It's going to take you a month," you organize yourself in such a way that it's going to take a month.
但是人们会给出答案，并且取决于医生给出答案的方式，我认为这很重要，因为如果医生说，“这将需要你，”而我正在做这个，我不知道需要多长时间，“这将花费你一个月的时间，”你以这样的方式组织自己，这将需要一个月的时间。
But I think if the doctor instead, which is what I would recommend, said, "We really don't know.
但我认为，如果医生（我建议这样做）说：“我们真的不知道。
Some people heal faster than others.
有些人比其他人康复得更快。
The fastest healing time that I personally know of is," let's say, "two weeks.
据我个人所知，最快的愈合时间是，”比方说，“两周。
And if you can heal faster than that, then good for you.
如果你能比这更快地康复，那对你有好处。
And if not, it's fine also." Because there are advantages to not healing that people don't realize.
如果没有，也没关系。”因为不治愈的好处是人们没有意识到的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
If you've broken your right arm and it's taking a long time to heal, that means you're using your left arm.
如果您的右臂骨折并且需要很长时间才能愈合，则意味着您正在使用左臂。
And if you're using your left arm, you're exercising the right side of your brain, which is going to be good for many tasks.
如果你使用左臂，你就是在锻炼你的右脑，这对许多任务都有好处。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
I don't know how we ended up right-handed or left-handed.
我不知道我们是怎么变成右撇子或左撇子的。
Are you ambidextrous?
你双手灵巧吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm right-handed.
我是右撇子。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'll occasionally go into hook righty, but I'm a righty.
我偶尔会用右手勾拳，但我是个右撇子。
My dad was naturally left-handed.
我父亲天生是左撇子。
They forced him to be right-handed.
他们强迫他用右手。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Oh, interesting.
哦，有趣。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Because I'm sort of ambidextrous-
因为我有点双手灵巧——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm
毫米
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
...
...
mostly right-handed.
大多是右手。
But people don't realize that if you're using your right hand, it's controlled by the left part of your brain, your left hand, the right part of your brain, and wouldn't it be nice to exercise both parts of our brain?
但人们没有意识到，如果你用右手，它是由你的左脑控制的，你的左手，你的右脑，锻炼我们的左右脑不是很好吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
And so we're doing research where we get people-- This is really interesting because it's not just using-- So this work was begun, gosh, I can't tell you how many years ago, and for one reason or another, never got finished.
所以我们正在做研究，我们让人们——这真的很有趣，因为它不仅仅是使用——所以这项工作是在多少年前开始的，天哪，我不能告诉你多少年前，由于这样或那样的原因，从未完成。
Initially, it was just getting people to use their right or their left hand.
最初，只是让人们使用右手或左手。
Now it's more sophisticated, where it's using your left hand with an awareness that you're using it or not.
现在它更加复杂，它使用你的左手，并意识到你是否使用它。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
And I think that the effect on the brain will only obtain if you're aware.
我认为只有当你意识到时，才会对大脑产生影响。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, this fits so beautifully.
哦，这太合适了。
I don't want to spend too much time on this, and you're probably aware of these experiments, but just for sake of our listeners, that you probably know that your colleagues at Harvard, David Hubel and Torsten Wiesel, won the Nobel Prize for brain plasticity, critical periods of vision, et cetera.
我不想在这上面花太多时间，你可能知道这些实验，但只是为了我们的听众，你可能知道你在哈佛大学的同事戴维·胡贝尔和托斯顿·威塞尔因大脑可塑性、视觉关键期等方面获得了诺贝尔奖。
And they had this sort of doctrine that they stated in the '80s, and it lasted until the, gosh, early and mid-2000s, that there was no significant brain plasticity in adult humans, that it literally shut down.
他们在 80 年代提出了这种学说，一直持续到天哪，2000 年代初和中期，成年人的大脑不存在显着的可塑性，它实际上已经关闭了。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Oh, that's wrong.
哦，那是错误的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mike Merzenich and a guy named Greg Recanzone at UCSF did these beautiful studies, I'll try and describe this really quickly, where they would have their subjects pay attention to little bumps on a rotating drum of different coarseness or fineness, and then there was a tone playing in the room.
加州大学旧金山分校的迈克·梅泽尼奇 (Mike Merzenich) 和一个名叫格雷格·雷坎佐 (Greg Recanzone) 的加州大学旧金山分校的人做了这些精彩的研究，我将尝试快速描述这一点，他们让受试者注意不同粗度或细度的转鼓上的小颠簸，然后房间里响起一种音调。
And if they were told to discriminate when the bumps were changed from coarse to just slightly less coarse or more coarse, the subject would signal, okay, that happened.
如果他们被告知要区分凹凸何时从粗糙变为稍微不那么粗糙或变得更粗糙，受试者会发出信号，好吧，这发生了。
And then over time, the area of the brain responsible for touch in adults-
然后随着时间的推移，成年人负责触觉的大脑区域——
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Hands
手
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
expanded the map of that.
扩大了它的地图。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So adult plasticity.
所以成人的可塑性。
What was very interesting, however, is if they did the exact same thing, but they were told to attend to slight changes in the frequency of the tone, it didn't matter what they were doing with their fingers.
然而，非常有趣的是，如果他们做了完全相同的事情，但他们被告知要注意音调频率的细微变化，那么他们用手指做什么并不重要。
The auditory cortex changed-
听觉皮层发生了变化——
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and the somatosensory, the touch-
以及体感、触觉——
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
map didn't.
地图没有。
And so it's proof positive that it's not just a behavior in adulthood, but the combination-
因此，这证明这不仅仅是成年后的一种行为，而是两者的结合——
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
And awareness of
以及意识
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
of behavior and awareness of the-
的行为和意识——
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
shift in perception-
观念的转变——
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that drives adult plasticity.
驱动成人的可塑性。
And I find those studies to be, well, first of all, they aren't discussed enough, that that feature isn't discussed enough, and second of all, it basically says that awareness is the gate-
我发现这些研究，首先，它们没有得到足够的讨论，这个功能没有得到足够的讨论，其次，它基本上说意识是大门——
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
to brain change.
大脑的改变。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I think that fits perfectly-
我认为这非常适合——
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
with everything that you've been talking about.
以及你一直在谈论的一切。
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
I don't see how it could be otherwise, actually.
事实上，我不明白事情会怎样。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
But to go back to the doctor telling you how long it's going to heal, it tends to be now a self-fulfilling prophecy.
但回到医生那里告诉你它需要多长时间才能痊愈，现在这往往是一个自我实现的预言。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
So given that doctors have this influence over us, they need to be more responsible in the information they're given.
因此，鉴于医生对我们有这种影响，他们需要对所提供的信息更加负责。
And we can't know how long it's going to take to heal.
而且我们不知道需要多长时间才能痊愈。
People today are different from people 20 years ago.
今天的人与20年前的人不同。
They ate different things, the activities were different, the air was different, and so on.
他们吃的东西不同，活动不同，空气不同，等等。
And so from where are these norms derived?
那么这些规范从何而来呢？
In fact, whenever I speak to anybody, I get lots of calls from people who are given these dread diagnoses, and the first thing I tell them is it takes so long to do these studies And then it takes forever to analyze the data, and then it takes another forever to publish it, and then eventually when you're going to hear about it, it's already old news.
事实上，每当我和任何人交谈时，我都会接到很多被诊断出这些可怕诊断的人的电话，我告诉他们的第一件事就是这些研究需要很长时间才能完成，然后需要很长时间来分析数据，然后又需要很长时间才能发布它，最后当你要听到它时，它已经是旧闻了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
So the information you're reading now was true for people who lived 10 years ago.
所以你现在读到的信息对于生活在 10 年前的人来说是正确的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Ah.
啊。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
10 years is a lot.
10年已经很多了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It is a lot.
这是很多。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
A lot of things happening.
很多事情发生了。
And always with the intention of getting people to be less absolute in their understanding of any of this, so that they can imagine all sorts of possibilities.
其目的始终是让人们对这一切的理解不那么绝对，这样他们就可以想象各种可能性。
But even the thing that I just said a moment before, that it's important for people to realize the advantage in using their left hand if they're right-handed, or their right hand if they're left-handed.
但即使是我刚才所说的，对于人们来说，认识到如果他们是右撇子则使用左手的优势，或者如果他们是左撇子则使用右手的优势也很重要。
And then at the same time recognizing that when they break a leg, when somebody breaks a leg, that forces you to do everything differently.
然后同时认识到，当他们摔断腿时，当有人摔断腿时，这会迫使你以不同的方式做每件事。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
And if you attend to that, that can be a wonderful thing.
如果你注意到这一点，那将是一件很棒的事情。
I don't know how I got to see these things, or it's very strange to me when I think of what things have influenced me.
我不知道我是怎么看到这些东西的，或者说当我想到那些东西影响了我的时候，我感到很奇怪。
I don't know how old I was, Andrew, but I'm watching this thing on television, and there's this woman who has no arms who's got a knife between her toes who's slicing a tomato.
我不知道我当时多大了，安德鲁，但我在电视上看这件事，有个没有手臂的女人，脚趾间插着一把刀，正在切西红柿。
And it's a lot of years.
而且已经很多年了。
I've seen and done a lot of things, but for me to remember that.
我见过很多事，做过很多事，但我要记住这一点。
And that even when we're taught to do something, we're taught a single way.
即使当我们被教导要做某事时，我们也被教导以单一的方式。
It's so much more fun to be taught multiple ways.
以多种方式进行教学要有趣得多。
When I hurt my right arm, I'm playing tennis poorly, but I'm still playing with my left hand.
当我右臂受伤时，我的网球打得不好，但我仍然用左手打球。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We have such a deficit model of life.
我们有这样一种赤字的生活模式。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yes, yeah.
是的，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And this also fits with the Kahneman stuff, right?
这也符合卡尼曼的观点，对吧？
That people will work much harder to avoid a loss than they will for a gain, and it seems to be-
人们会更加努力地避免损失，而不是为了获得收益，而这似乎是——
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Well, see, now that's interesting because when I go to teach that, I have so much trouble keeping track of what's the loss and what's the gain-
好吧，看，现在这很有趣，因为当我去教这个时，我很难跟踪损失和收获是什么——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm
毫米
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
...
...
because I don't see the world that way.
因为我不那样看世界。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You've transcended the typical notion of loss and gain.
你已经超越了典型的得与失的概念。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Well, whether I've transcended or not, I just think differently.
嗯，无论我是否超越，我只是想法不同而已。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
But everybody accepts that.
但每个人都接受这一点。
And to see the gain in the so-called loss, or the loss in the so-called gain-
而要在所谓的损失中看到增益，或者在所谓的增益中看到损失——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
...
...
you just end up with a very different world.
你最终会得到一个完全不同的世界。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Well, I'm not as evolved in that aspect, certainly others as well, as you are, but when I started my lab, I used to teach my students something, which was, "Okay, we're going to get a lot more rejections and have to do a lot more revisions than we are going to get acceptances on papers and grants.
嗯，我在这方面并不像你那样进步，当然其他人也一样，但是当我开始我的实验室时，我曾经教过我的学生一些东西，那就是，“好吧，我们会收到更多的拒绝，并且必须做更多的修改，而不是我们在论文和资助上获得的接受。
So the best thing that you can do," which is what I had to do for myself, one of the best things you might consider, would've been a gentler way to say it, but I said, "One of the best things you can do," because that's the way I talk sometimes, "is to create a long arc of positive feedback loops when something good happens."
因此，你能做的最好的事情，”这就是我必须为自己做的事情，你可能会认为最好的事情之一，会是一种更温和的表达方式，但我说，“你能做的最好的事情之一，”因为这就是我有时说话的方式，“就是当好事发生时，创造一个长弧形的积极反馈循环。”
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
"But that when something negative happens, let yourself feel it acutely, and then move on fast."
“但是当消极的事情发生时，让自己敏锐地感受到它，然后快速前进。”
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And so if I were to plot this, it would basically be like an accepted paper will delight me and motivate me for many, many months, if not years.
因此，如果我要绘制这个图，基本上就像一篇被接受的论文会让我高兴并激励我很多很多个月，甚至几年。
But a rejection or a tough revision where we're looking at another year or two of experiments, I'd allow myself maybe a day and a half of just being utterly crushed, and then right back to it.
但是，当我们考虑再进行一两年的实验时，如果遭到拒绝或进行艰难的修改，我可能会让自己被彻底压垮一天半的时间，然后再回到原来的状态。
And it-
还有它——
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah, but another way, when I say put people back in the equation, that's what you need to teach them.
是的，但另一种方式，当我说把人们重新纳入等式时，这就是你需要教给他们的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Which is the responses you're getting, these reviews are not from a bunch of sages in the sky-
这就是你得到的回复，这些评论不是来自一群天上的圣人——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Certainly not
当然不是
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
...
...
all-knowing people.
无所不知的人。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Certainly not.
当然不是。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
They're just a group of people.
他们只是一群人。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
A group of people with different biases and so on.
一群有着不同偏见的人等等。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
And it doesn't mean you were wrong.
这并不意味着你错了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
And reviews, and I learned from my postdoc advisor, and I love this, is he used to say, "Reviews always make papers better.
还有评论，我从我的博士后导师那里学到了这一点，我喜欢这一点，他常说，“评论总是能让论文变得更好。
Even if you hate them, they always make papers better.
即使你讨厌他们，他们总是能让论文变得更好。
They never make papers worse." Sometimes they make papers a little bit harder to track because there's-
他们永远不会让论文变得更糟。”有时它们会让论文变得更难追踪，因为-
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
this weird figure put in just to satisfy-
这个奇怪的数字只是为了满足-
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Satisfy, yeah
满足吧
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
a reviewer.
审稿人。
You're like, "What is this?" But everyone eventually realizes what that figure is about anyway.
你会说，“这是什么？”但无论如何，每个人最终都会意识到这个数字的含义。
And so I adopted the idea that reviews, red ink, critical feedback are just ways of getting better.
所以我接受了这样的想法：评论、亏损、批评性反馈只是变得更好的方法。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Which has also been essential in the podcasting sphere, because if I've ever gotten anything wrong, believe me, I hear about it in the comments, and sometimes it can be embarrassing, but you just look at it as an opportunity-
这在播客领域也很重要，因为如果我犯了任何错误，请相信我，我在评论中听到了它，有时它可能会很尴尬，但你只需将其视为一个机会 -
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
to address your humanness and move forward.
解决你的人性并继续前进。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Correct it and move forward.
纠正它并继续前进。
But I think a lot of people try and maintain this air of perfection, like they're some sort of Fabergé egg.
但我认为很多人都试图保持这种完美的氛围，就像它们是某种法贝热彩蛋一样。
That instead of living life like a work of art where it has dimples and cracks and acne and all the rest, and it's human, I think a lot of people want to present themselves to the world like a Fabergé egg, like this just absolutely flawless.
我认为很多人不想像一件艺术品一样生活，那里有酒窝、裂缝、痤疮等等，而且它是人性的，我认为很多人都想像法贝热彩蛋一样向世界展示自己，就像这样绝对完美。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah, but the problem with that is going out the next day.
是的，但问题是第二天就会出现。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
You can be that Fabergé egg on day one-
第一天你就可以成为那个法贝热彩蛋——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
...
...
but now you've got to maintain that.
但现在你必须保持这一点。
The first paper that I published came back without a comment.
我发表的第一篇论文没有发表任何评论。
Without a comment.
没有评论。
Not a correction, not a typo.
不是更正，也不是打字错误。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What a dangerous thing to happen.
这是多么危险的事情啊。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
It was awful.
太糟糕了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
That was not my experience.
那不是我的经历。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
No, exactly.
不，确切地说。
Well, it set me up-
嗯，它让我——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
...
...
for expectations.
为了期望。
What do you mean when you...
当你...时你是什么意思？
For the next one.
为了下一篇。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
But I think also that it's once you recognize that this is an opinion-
但我也认为，一旦你认识到这是一种观点——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
...
...
rather than a statement of fact-
而不是事实陈述——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
...
...
and then what I tell my students is that when you get a comment, it doesn't mean that the comment is right.
然后我告诉我的学生的是，当你收到评论时，并不意味着该评论是正确的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
It means that whatever you wrote wasn't appreciated in the way you wanted it to be appreciated.
这意味着无论你写的是什么，都没有以你希望的方式得到欣赏。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
And they're guessing at, well, if you did it this way rather than that way.
他们猜测，好吧，如果你这样做而不是那样。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Papers that are not accepted today may be accepted tomorrow, the same paper.
今天没有被接受的论文明天可能会被接受，同样的论文。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
I can't tell you how many times people say, "It can't be," and then it becomes the standard.
我无法告诉你有多少次人们说“这不可能”，然后它就成为了标准。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
You know.
你知道。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You mean in terms of a field and what's-
你的意思是在一个领域以及什么是-
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
what's acceptable?
什么是可以接受的？
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah, or just-- Yeah.
是的，或者只是——是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Things have certainly changed.
事情确实发生了变化。
And look, you've done a tremendous amount to pioneer that change.
看，你已经为引领这一变革付出了巨大的努力。
It's not one study or 10 study or 20 studies.
这不是一项研究、10 项研究或 20 项研究。
There's now a catalog of incredibly groundbreaking work that you've, I don't know if you used intentionally or you're just following your interests, but that have transformed the way that we think about-
现在你已经有了一系列令人难以置信的开创性工作，我不知道你是故意使用的还是只是在追随你的兴趣，但这已经改变了我们思考的方式 -
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Hmm
嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
the mind and its role in our physiology and so on.
心灵及其在我们生理中的作用等等。
I was hoping to get your reflections on something that I sometimes say that's probably wrong, but that is helpful to me because, and hopefully to other people too, because it I think captures some of the circuit dynamics related to reward and reinforcement, and it sometimes resurfaces on the internet, that addiction, among other things, is a progressive narrowing of the things that bring someone pleasure.
我希望得到你们对我有时说的可能是错误的事情的反思，但这对我有帮助，希望对其他人也有帮助，因为我认为它捕捉到了与奖励和强化相关的一些回路动态，有时它会在互联网上重新出现，即成瘾，除其他外，是一种逐渐缩小给某人带来快乐的事物。
And I used to attach to that statement, enlightenment, if there is such a thing, is a progressive broadening of the things that bring us pleasure.
我曾经坚持这样的说法：启蒙，如果有这样的事情的话，就是逐渐扩大给我们带来快乐的事物。
And one thing that struck me throughout today's conversation is that it seems like you're able to look at pretty much anything through a bunch of different facets, take on other points of view, so strong theory of mind, while holding onto your own-
在今天的谈话中，让我印象深刻的一件事是，你似乎能够通过一堆不同的方面来看待几乎任何事情，接受其他观点，如此强大的心理理论，同时坚持自己的观点——
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Yeah, I won't let go
是的，我不会放手
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
perceptions.
的看法。
You're not drifting off from yourself.
你并没有偏离自己。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
No.
不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You're remaining of self, but taking on other perspectives, and that flexibility of thinking and that expansiveness, like looking at things as good, bad, maybe, I don't know what's true or what could be true, and really challenging preconceived notions, seems very powerful.
你保持自我，但采取其他观点，思维的灵活性和扩张性，就像看待事物是好是坏，也许，我不知道什么是真的或什么可能是真的，并且真正挑战先入为主的观念，似乎非常强大。
Do you believe in enlightenment?
你相信开悟吗？
And was-
并且是——
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Sure, yeah
当然，是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
the description I just gave anything like what-
我刚刚给出的描述是这样的-
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
No, no
不，不
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
the way you envision it?
是你想象的那样吗？
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
No, I'm very flattered.
不，我很受宠若惊。
I think that when you're walking around and you don't see and all of a sudden you see you can say that you're enlightened.
我认为，当你四处走动时，你看不到，突然间你看到了，你可以说你开悟了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
I guess in a not so grandiose way that that simple thing that I keep saying, recognizing that behavior makes sense-
我想，以一种不那么宏大的方式，我一直在说的那件简单的事情，认识到行为是有道理的——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
...
...
leads you to such a different view of people.
让你对人有如此不同的看法。
You don't have people who are good and bad, people who are addicted and not addicted.
没有好人和坏人，没有上瘾的人和不上瘾的人。
You don't have A students and failing students.
你没有优秀的学生和不及格的学生。
Everything just organizes itself differently, and you come to appreciate the individual talents that people have.
一切都以不同的方式组织起来，你会开始欣赏人们所拥有的个人才能。
And when you can do that, I don't know if you want to call the person enlightened, but life just is easier-
当你能做到这一点时，我不知道你是否想称这个人开悟，但生活会变得更容易——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
...
...
and nicer.
和更好。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
It's nicer to walk outside and be trusting of people and not to be afraid of this bastard or that one who's going to come and get you.
走出去并信任别人而不是害怕这个混蛋或那个会来抓你的人会更好。
I went to, with a friend, this was so many years ago, to an AA meeting to see what it was like.
很多年前，我和一个朋友去参加了 AA 会议，看看会是什么样子。
And I had left my pocketbook over here, wherever that is, which you can see.
我把我的钱包留在这里了，无论它在哪里，你都可以看到。
And we walked over here-
然后我们就走到了这里——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
...
...
for whatever reason.
无论出于何种原因。
And I said, "Ah, I left my pocketbook over there." And then I thought, so what?
我说：“啊，我把钱包落在那儿了。”然后我想，那又怎样？
If somebody takes it, they probably need it more than I do.
如果有人拿走了它，他们可能比我更需要它。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
And it was so freeing just not to care about all these things that somehow we're implicitly, sometimes explicitly taught to care about, and always evaluating ourselves.
不去关心所有这些事情真是太自由了，不知何故，我们被隐含地、有时是明确地教导要关心并总是评估自己。
That little song, feeling that let me sing.
那首小歌，让我唱的感觉。
I enjoy sing-- I can't carry a tune, so what?
我喜欢唱歌——我唱不准，那又怎样？
Why should somebody make me feel bad about singing?
为什么有人要让我对唱歌感到难过？
And maybe I'll become a better singer, or maybe I'll sing in some way that'll teach somebody some new trick that they hadn't thought about before because of my inadequacy.
也许我会成为一名更好的歌手，或者也许我会以某种方式唱歌，教别人一些他们以前因为我的不足而没有想到的新技巧。
Why are people evaluating themselves at every moment rather than feeling good about the things they know that they can do?
为什么人们每时每刻都在评估自己，而不是对他们知道自己能做的事情感到满意？
And who decides what's important to be able to do?
谁来决定能够做什么是重要的？
I don't know how to most articulately share it, but it's just a very different life.
我不知道如何最清楚地表达它，但这只是一种非常不同的生活。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
A life where you don't-- I just don't believe that stress is necessary.
一种你不需要的生活——我只是不相信压力是必要的。
I don't believe that there's anybody in this world that's better than I am.
我不相信这个世界上还有比我更好的人。
But I also don't believe I'm better than anybody else.
但我也不相信我比其他人更好。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hmm.
嗯。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
It's very different, where everything, especially among those of us who are academics, where every minute you're given a grade, and even the number of papers you got accepted determines your pecking order and so on.
这是非常不同的，一切事情，尤其是我们这些学者，每一分钟你都会得到一个分数，甚至你被接受的论文数量都决定了你的排名等等。
It's all so silly.
这一切都是那么愚蠢。
And then you have the money people, and I have $20 billion, so I'm better off than people, I'm a better person than people who have $10 billion.
然后你有钱，人们，我有200亿美元，所以我比人们过得更好，我比那些拥有100亿美元的人更好。
It's sad to me when in fact, I think all of it is engaged in order to feel good about yourself.
让我感到难过的是，事实上，我认为所有这些都是为了让自己感觉良好。
That's all.
就这样。
Why do I need that money?
我为什么需要这笔钱？
Why do I need those A's?
为什么我需要那些 A？
Why do I need those successes so that I'll like myself?
为什么我需要这些成功才能喜欢自己？
Just like yourself.
就像你自己一样。
Recognize that you're likable.
认识到你是讨人喜欢的。
Why not?
为什么不呢？
That may seem simple-minded, but it's gotten me to wherever I am.
这可能看起来很简单，但它让我走到了现在的地方。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It has indeed, and it's helped a tremendous number of people, both in the form of scientific findings, which are then shared with people through books and through podcasts, and I'm just so grateful that you came here today to share with us.
它确实以科学发现的形式帮助了很多人，然后通过书籍和播客与人们分享，我非常感谢您今天来到这里与我们分享。
This is really as vast as it's been- ...
这实在是太庞大了——……
just a subset of the discoveries that you've made.
这只是您所发现的一部分。
So, a couple of things.
所以，有几件事。
First of all, thank you for coming here today.
首先，感谢您今天来到这里。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
It's been my pleasure.
这是我的荣幸。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I've thoroughly enjoyed this, and I love your work, and it's caused me to think differently about things, and today's discussion is going to make me, and I know so many other people, think differently about everything.
我非常喜欢这个，我喜欢你的工作，它让我对事物有了不同的思考，今天的讨论将使我，以及我认识的很多其他人，对一切事情有不同的思考。
Very few discussions at all will make me rethink my thinking about everything.
很少有讨论会让我重新思考我对一切的想法。
This one certainly will.
这个肯定会的。
And also for continuing to do the work that you're doing.
也为了继续做你正在做的工作。
It's clear that you embody and live the discoveries that you make, and it's not just an academic pursuit that then allows you to appropriately collect all the amazing awards and titles, but that it really serves and that you live it.
很明显，你体现并生活在你所做出的发现中，这不仅仅是一种学术追求，然后让你适当地收集所有令人惊叹的奖项和头衔，而是它真正服务并且你生活它。
So thank you for that as well.
所以也谢谢你。
And then two more questions, very briefly.
然后还有两个问题，非常简短。
The first one is would you-
第一个是你愿意——
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
It doesn't matter how long the question is, it's the answer that matters, right?
问题有多长并不重要，重要的是答案，对吧？
So you asked me the brief question for a long answer.
所以你问了我一个简短的问题，以获得一个长答案。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, the floor is yours, but would you consider coming back-
好吧，地板是你的，但你会考虑回来吗-
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Oh, sure
哦，当然
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
again to share with us some additional findings is the second to last question, and then I'm just thinking that maybe the last question is so that it sticks in people's minds, would you be willing to share the song?
再次与我们分享一些额外的发现是倒数第二个问题，然后我只是想也许最后一个问题是为了让它留在人们的脑海中，你愿意分享这首歌吗？
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Oh, Andrew.
哦，安德鲁。
All right.
好的。
Yes, I'm going to sing this.
是的，我要唱这首歌。
Now you have to remember, though, that I'm singing this because I think singing is fun and it shouldn't matter how good a voice you have, okay?
但现在你必须记住，我唱这首歌是因为我认为唱歌很有趣，你的声音有多好并不重要，好吗？
So here we go.
那么我们开始吧。
This is to the old Sara Lee commercial, and everybody doesn't like something, but nobody doesn't like Sara Lee.
这是莎拉·李的旧广告，每个人都不喜欢某些东西，但没有人不喜欢莎拉·李。
Right.
正确的。
Everybody doesn't know something, but everyone knows something else.
每个人都不知道某些事情，但每个人都知道其他事情。
Everyone can't do something, but everyone can do something else.
每个人都不能做某事，但每个人都可以做其他事。
So what have I lost by singing that?
那么我唱这首歌失去了什么？
I know I can't sing, now you know I can't sing, but do you think my not being able to sing means I can't write, think, or do whatever it is that I do better than singing?
我知道我不会唱歌，现在你知道我不会唱歌，但你认为我不会唱歌意味着我不能写作、思考或做任何比唱歌更好的事情吗？
No, of course not.
不，当然不是。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I love the song, and thanks for saying you'll come back again.
我喜欢这首歌，谢谢你说你会再次回来。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thank you so much.
非常感谢。
Dr. Ellen Langer:
艾伦·兰格博士：
Thanks for having me.
谢谢你有我。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Ellen Langer.
感谢您参加今天与艾伦·兰格博士的讨论。
I hope you found it to be as fascinating as I did.
我希望你和我一样觉得它很有趣。
To learn more about Dr. Langer's work, to find links to her books and workshops and other resources, please see the show note captions.
要了解有关兰格博士的工作的更多信息，找到她的书籍和研讨会以及其他资源的链接，请参阅节目注释标题。
If you're learning from and/or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel.
如果您正在学习和/或喜欢此播客，请订阅我们的 YouTube 频道。
That's a terrific zero-cost way to support us.
这是支持我们的绝佳零成本方式。
In addition, please click follow for the podcast on both Spotify and Apple, and on both Spotify and Apple, you can leave us up to a five-star review.
另外，请在 Spotify 和 Apple 上点击关注该播客，在 Spotify 和 Apple 上，您都可以给我们留下五星级的评论。
If you have questions for me or comments about the podcast or guests or topics you'd like me to consider for the Huberman Lab podcast, please put those in the comments section on YouTube.
如果您对我有疑问，或者对播客或嘉宾有意见，或者您希望我为 Huberman Lab 播客考虑的主题，请将这些内容放在 YouTube 的评论部分。
I do read all the comments.
我确实阅读了所有评论。
Please also check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode.
另请查看今天节目开头和整个节目中提到的赞助商。
That's the best way to support this podcast.
这是支持这个播客的最佳方式。
For those of you that haven't heard, I have a new book coming out.
对于那些还没有听说过的人，我即将出版一本新书。
It's my very first book.
这是我的第一本书。
It's entitled "Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body." This is a book that I've been working on for more than five years, and that's based on more than 30 years of research and experience, and it covers protocols for everything from sleep to exercise to stress control, protocols related to focus and motivation, and of course, I provide the scientific substantiation for the protocols that are included.
它的标题是“协议：人体操作手册”。这是我花了五年多时间编写的一本书，它基于 30 多年的研究和经验，涵盖了从睡眠到运动到压力控制的各个方面的方案，以及与注意力和动机相关的方案，当然，我还为所包含的方案提供了科学依据。
The book is now available by presale at protocolsbook.com.
该书现已在protocolbook.com 上预售。
There you can find links to various vendors.
在那里您可以找到各个供应商的链接。
You can pick the one that you like best.
您可以选择您最喜欢的一个。
Again, the book is called "Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body." If you're not already following me on social media, I am Huberman Lab on all social media platforms.
同样，这本书的名字是“协议：人体操作手册”。如果您还没有在社交媒体上关注我，我是所有社交媒体平台上的 Huberman Lab。
So that's Instagram, X, formerly known as Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, and Threads.
这就是 Instagram、X，以前称为 Twitter、Facebook、LinkedIn 和 Threads。
And on all those platforms, I discuss science and science-related tools, some of which overlaps with the content of the Huberman Lab podcast, but much of which is distinct from the content on the Huberman Lab podcast.
在所有这些平台上，我讨论科学和与科学相关的工具，其中一些与胡伯曼实验室播客的内容重叠，但其中大部分与胡伯曼实验室播客的内容不同。
Again, that's Huberman Lab on all social media platforms.
再说一次，这就是所有社交媒体平台上的 Huberman Lab。
And if you haven't already subscribed to our Neural Network Newsletter, the Neural Network Newsletter is a zero-cost monthly newsletter that includes podcast summaries as well as what we call protocols in the form of one to three-page PDFs that cover everything from how to optimize your sleep, how to optimize dopamine, deliberate cold exposure.
如果您还没有订阅我们的神经网络时事通讯，神经网络时事通讯是一份零成本的月度时事通讯，其中包括播客摘要以及我们所说的一到三页 PDF 形式的协议，涵盖从如何优化睡眠、如何优化多巴胺、故意冷暴露等所有内容。
We have a foundational fitness protocol that covers cardiovascular training and resistance training.
我们有一个基本的健身方案，涵盖心血管训练和阻力训练。
All of that is available completely zero cost.
所有这些都是完全零成本可用的。
You simply go to hubermanlab.com, go to the Menu tab in the top right corner, scroll down to Newsletter, and enter your email.
您只需访问 hubermanlab.com，转到右上角的“菜单”选项卡，向下滚动到新闻通讯，然后输入您的电子邮件即可。
And I should emphasize that we do not share your email with anybody.
我要强调的是，我们不会与任何人分享您的电子邮件。
Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Ellen Langer.
再次感谢您参加今天与艾伦·兰格博士的讨论。
And last but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.
最后但并非最不重要的一点是，感谢您对科学的兴趣。