Dr. Elissa Epel: Control Stress for Healthy Eating, Metabolism & Aging

Elissa Epel 博士：控制压力促进健康饮食、新陈代谢和衰老

2023-04-03 | 官方页面 YouTube 官方音频

This transcript may not be in its final form and may be updated.

本成绩单可能不是最终版本，并且可能会更新。

Andrew Huberman: Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science based tools for everyday life.

Andrew Huberman：欢迎来到 Huberman 实验室播客，我们在这里讨论科学和基于科学的日常生活工具。

I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.

我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。

Today, my guest is Dr. Elissa Epel.

今天，我的嘉宾是艾丽莎·埃佩尔博士。

Dr. Epel is a professor of psychiatry and behavioral sciences at the University of California, San Francisco.

埃佩尔博士是旧金山加利福尼亚大学精神病学和行为科学教授。

She is also the director of the Center on Aging, Metabolism, and Emotions (AME).

她还是衰老、新陈代谢和情绪中心（AME）的主任。

Dr. Epel's laboratory focuses on stress and the many impacts that it has on our brain and body, both negative and positive.

埃佩尔博士的实验室专注于压力及其对我们的大脑和身体的许多影响，包括消极和积极的影响。

For instance, her laboratory has shown that particular forms of stress change our telomeres, which are a component of the genetic machinery of our cells that impacts how quickly our cells and therefore we age.

例如，她的实验室表明，特定形式的压力会改变我们的端粒，端粒是我们细胞遗传机制的一个组成部分，会影响我们细胞的速度，从而影响我们衰老的速度。

We also discuss exciting work from Dr. Epel's laboratory exploring how stress impacts our behavioral choices, in particular which foods we elect to eat and how we experience those foods.

我们还讨论了埃佩尔博士实验室的令人兴奋的工作，探索压力如何影响我们的行为选择，特别是我们选择吃哪些食物以及我们如何体验这些食物。

Today, you'll learn how stress, and your interpretation of your stress impacts the different aspects of your biology and psychology.

今天，您将了解压力以及您对压力的解释如何影响您的生物学和心理学的不同方面。

You'll also learn about several important stress interventions that Dr. Epel's laboratory has explored, including meditation and breath work, can profoundly influence the way that stress impacts your brain and body, both for better or for worse.

您还将了解埃佩尔博士实验室探索的几种重要的压力干预措施，包括冥想和呼吸练习，它们可以深刻地影响压力对您的大脑和身体的影响，无论是好还是坏。

She's also explored how specific dietary interventions, such as omega-3 fatty acid intake, impacts stress and our response to stress.

她还探讨了特定的饮食干预措施（例如 omega-3 脂肪酸的摄入量）如何影响压力以及我们对压力的反应。

And a key and important feature, I believe, of Dr. Epel's work is how stress and stress interventions vary in their effectiveness, depending on whether or not the subjects in her experiments are male versus female and their social status.

我认为，埃佩尔博士工作的一个关键且重要的特点是压力和压力干预措施的有效性如何变化，这取决于她实验中的受试者是男性还是女性以及他们的社会地位。

By the end of today's episode, I assure you, you will have a much more thorough understanding of what stress is and how it changes our biology and psychology, as well as the specific stress interventions that are going to be most optimal for you in reducing the negative effects of stress on the aging process and on negative behavioral choices, and also how to leverage stress in order to maximize the positive effects that stress can have on cellular metabolism, mental health, physical health, and performance.

我向您保证，在今天的节目结束时，您将更全面地了解压力是什么以及它如何改变我们的生物学和心理学，以及最适合您的具体压力干预措施，以减少压力对衰老过程和消极行为选择的负面影响，以及如何利用压力以最大限度地发挥压力对细胞代谢、心理健康、身体健康和表现的积极影响。

To learn more about the work from Dr. Epel's Laboratory, as well as to learn more about her books entitled the Telomere Effect and now, more recently, The Stress Prescription, you can find links to those in the show note captions.

要了解有关 Epel 博士实验室的工作的更多信息，以及有关她题为《端粒效应》和最近出版的《压力处方》的书籍的更多信息，您可以在节目注释标题中找到指向这些内容的链接。

Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.

在开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。

It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science related tools to the general public.

然而，我的愿望和努力的一部分是向公众提供有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本消费者信息。

In keeping with that theme, I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast.

为了与这个主题保持一致，我要感谢今天播客的赞助商。

Our first sponsor is LMNT.

我们的第一个赞助商是LMNT。

LMNT is an electrolyte drink with everything you need and nothing you don't.

LMNT 是一种电解质饮料，包含您需要的一切，没有您不需要的东西。

That means plenty of salt, magnesium and potassium, the so called electrolytes, and no sugar.

这意味着需要大量的盐、镁和钾，即所谓的电解质，并且不含糖。

Now, salt, magnesium and potassium are critical to the function of all the cells in your body, in particular to the function of your nerve cells, also called neurons.

现在，盐、镁和钾对于体内所有细胞的功能至关重要，特别是对于神经细胞（也称为神经元）的功能。

In fact, in order for your neurons to function properly, all three electrolytes need to be present in the proper ratios.

事实上，为了使神经元正常运作，所有三种电解质都需要以适当的比例存在。

And we now know that even slight reductions in electrolyte concentrations or dehydration of the body can lead to deficits in cognitive and physical performance.

我们现在知道，即使电解质浓度轻微降低或身体脱水也会导致认知和身体表现缺陷。

LMNT contains a science backed electrolyte ratio of 1000 milligrams.

LMNT 含有科学支持的电解质比例为 1000 毫克。

That's 1 gram of sodium, 200 milligrams of potassium, and 60 milligrams of magnesium.

即 1 克钠、200 毫克钾和 60 毫克镁。

I typically drink LMNT first thing in the morning when I wake up in order to hydrate my body and make sure I have enough electrolytes.

我通常早上起床后第一件事就是喝 LMNT，为身体补充水分并确保有足够的电解质。

And while I do any kind of physical training and after physical training as well, especially if I've been sweating a lot.

当我进行任何形式的体育训练时以及体育训练后，尤其是当我出汗很多时。

If you'd like to try LMNT, you can go to drinklmnt.

如果你想尝试LMNT，你可以去drinklmnt。

That's drinklmnt.com/huberman to claim a free LMNT sample pack with your purchase.

您可以通过 Drinklmnt.com/huberman 在购买时索取免费的 LMNT 样品包。

Again, that's drinklmnt.com/huberman.

再说一遍，这是 Drinklmnt.com/huberman。

Today's episode is also brought to us by Waking Up.

今天的节目也是由Wakeing Up为我们带来的。

Waking Up is a meditation app that includes hundreds of meditation programs, mindfulness trainings, Yoga Nidra sessions, and NSDR (Non-Sleep Deep Rest) protocols.

Waking Up 是一款冥想应用程序，其中包括数百个冥想计划、正念训练、瑜伽休息课程和 NSDR（非睡眠深度休息）协议。

I started using the Waking Up app a few years ago because even though I've been doing regular meditations since my teens and I started doing Yoga Nidra about a decade ago, my dad mentioned to me that he had found an app, turned out to be the Waking Up app, which could teach you meditations of different durations and that had a lot of different types of meditations to place the brain and body into different states and that he liked it very much.

So I gave the Waking Up app a try and I too found it to be extremely useful because sometimes I only have a few minutes to meditate, other times I have longer to meditate.

所以我尝试了“Wake Up”应用程序，我也发现它非常有用，因为有时我只有几分钟的时间来冥想，有时我有更长的时间来冥想。

And indeed, I love the fact that I can explore different types of meditation to bring about different levels of understanding about consciousness, but also to place my brain and body into lots of different kinds of states depending on which meditation I do.

I also love that the Waking Up app has lots of different types of Yoga Nidra sessions.

我还喜欢“唤醒”应用程序有许多不同类型的瑜伽休息课程。

For those of you who don't know, Yoga Nidra is a process of lying very still.

对于那些不知道的人来说，瑜伽休息术是一个非常安静地躺着的过程。

But keeping an active mind, it's very different than most meditations.

但保持积极的心态，这与大多数冥想有很大不同。

And there's excellent scientific data to show that Yoga Nidra, and something similar to it called Non-Sleep Deep Rest, or NSDR, can greatly restore levels of cognitive and physical energy, even with just a short ten minute session.

有出色的科学数据表明，瑜伽休息术以及类似的非睡眠深度休息 (NSDR) 可以极大地恢复认知和身体能量水平，即使只是短短的十分钟课程。

If you'd like to try the Waking Up app, you can go to wakingup.com/huberman and access a free 30 day trial.

如果您想尝试 Waking Up 应用程序，可以访问 wakingup.com/huberman 并免费试用 30 天。

Again, that's wakingup.com/huberman to access a free 30 day trial.

再次强调，访问 wakingup.com/huberman 即可获得 30 天免费试用。

And now for my discussion with Dr. Elissa Epel.

现在我与 Elissa Epel 博士进行讨论。

Dr. Epel, welcome.

Elissa Epel: Thank you.

Andrew Huberman: So great to have you here.

安德鲁·休伯曼：很高兴你能来到这里。

We have colleagues in common and topics of interest related to our laboratories in common.

我们有共同的同事，也有与实验室相关的共同兴趣话题。

So I've got a lot of questions today.

所以我今天有很多问题。

I'd love to just kick off by you explaining a little bit about the different forms of stress we hear stress.

我很乐意首先解释一下我们听到的压力的不同形式。

Stress is bad.

压力是不好的。

Stress can kill us.

No one likes to feel stressed, etc. But as you and I both know, that's not the entire picture.

没有人喜欢感到压力等等。但正如你和我都知道的那样，这还不是全部。

So we'd love for you to just educate us a bit on what stress is and what it isn't, where it can be problematic and where perhaps it can even be beneficial.

因此，我们希望您能告诉我们什么是压力、什么不是压力、压力在哪里可能会带来问题、在哪里甚至可能是有益的。

Elissa Epel: So as a stress scientist, it is a word I use a lot, but it has to be broken down because it has so many different kind of dimensions and meanings.

Elissa Epel：作为一名压力科学家，我经常使用这个词，但它必须被分解，因为它有很多不同的维度和含义。

So there's good and bad stress, there's acute and chronic stress.

因此，压力有好的和坏的，有急性的和慢性的。

And technically, it just means anytime we feel overwhelmed that we feel like the demands are too much for our resources.

从技术上讲，这只是意味着每当我们感到不知所措时，我们都会觉得对我们的资源的需求太多了。

So that's kind of a very technical way to put it.

这是一种非常技术性的表达方式。

But really, so much of life is about meeting challenges, and we're never going to get rid of different stressful situations in life.

但实际上，生活的大部分内容就是迎接挑战，我们永远无法摆脱生活中不同的压力情况。

If anything, they are increasing.

如果说有什么不同的话，那就是它们正在增加。

And so it really comes down to not the stressors of what happens to us, but really how we respond, the stress response.

因此，归根结底，问题不在于我们所遭遇的压力源，而在于我们如何应对，即压力反应。

So that's a distinction that we're still trying to get the field to talk about stress in a more specific way so that we can think about, well, what situations are in your life.

因此，这是一个区别，我们仍在努力让该领域以更具体的方式谈论压力，以便我们可以思考，嗯，你生活中的情况。

They might be difficult, ongoing situations, like caregiving or work stress or worrying about health, your own or someone's.

它们可能是困难的、持续的情况，比如照顾或工作压力或担心你自己或某人的健康。

And then there's how are you coping with it?

然后你是如何应对的？

So when something happens, we mount a stress response and we recover.

因此，当事情发生时，我们会产生压力反应并恢复。

And that's beautiful.

那很漂亮。

No harm done.

没有造成任何伤害。

We need that.

我们需要那个。

That's why we're here, still alive.

这就是我们还活着的原因。

Is that survival response?

这就是生存反应吗？

It's a problem these days of just, we keep it alive in our head.

如今，这是一个问题，但我们一直把它记在脑子里。

We keep it alive with our thoughts.

我们用我们的思想让它保持活力。

Our thoughts are the most common form of stress.

我们的想法是最常见的压力形式。

Andrew Huberman: Even though I expected we would get into tools to combat stress a little bit later, since you have now told us that our thoughts are the biggest sort of propagator of internal stress, what, to your knowledge, is the best way, or what are the best ways for us to manage overthinking and ruminating on stressful topics?

安德鲁·胡伯曼：尽管我预计我们稍后会使用对抗压力的工具，但既然你现在告诉我们，我们的思想是内部压力的最大传播者，据你所知，什么是最好的方法，或者什么是我们管理过度思考和反思压力话题的最佳方法？

Because I certainly experience stress, and when I do, I have tools related to breath work, running, exercise, sleep, Non-Sleep Deep Rest.

因为我确实经历过压力，当我经历压力时，我有与呼吸工作、跑步、锻炼、睡眠、非睡眠深度休息相关的工具。

I'm a huge fan of all these sorts of things, but when we succumb to stress and the thinking patterns take over where the gears are turning and they won't stop turning, what does the science tell us about ways to manage those thoughts?

Should we work with them in the sense that we try and rationalize or understand the basis of the stress?

我们是否应该与他们合作，尝试合理化或理解压力的根源？

Or should we try and divert our thinking away?

或者我们应该尝试转移我们的思维？

Or is there some other tool that I'm unaware of?

或者还有其他我不知道的工具吗？

Elissa Epel: Yes, both.

Elissa Epel : .

So I like to bin it in three categories.

所以我喜欢把它分为三类。

So one is, well, I'll just say, first of all, we have to have some awareness of how our mind works, or we're just like a subject to thinking our thoughts are real thinking, that it's helpful to keep ruminating and problem solving, because that's our tendency is to go toward whatever we think there's threat or risk, and to problem solve that.

所以，好吧，我只想说，首先，我们必须对我们的思维如何运作有一定的认识，否则我们就像一个认为我们的想法是真实想法的主体，不断思考和解决问题是有帮助的，因为我们的倾向是走向我们认为存在威胁或风险的任何事物，并解决问题。

We could just be stuck there all day in this kind of threat mode or red mind state.

我们可能会整天陷入这种威胁模式或红色思维状态。

And that's just a shame.

We don't need to turn on that stress response all the time.

我们不需要一直开启压力反应。

But that's where we are as a society.

但这就是我们作为一个社会的处境。

So that's why I wrote The Stress Prescription.

Take any survey, even pre pandemic, and people feel, the majority of people feel an overwhelming amount of stress.

进行任何调查，即使是在大流行之前，人们都会感到，大多数人都感受到了巨大的压力。

So even this past year, 46% of adults report feeling overwhelmed by stress.

因此，即使在过去的一年里，仍有 46% 的成年人表示感到压力重重。

And then you break it down, you're like, ooh, this is really bad for young adults and women and people of color.

然后你把它分解，你会想，哦，这对年轻人、女性和有色人种来说真的很糟糕。

So we have these groups that are targeted for marginalization that are feeling an extremely high amount of stress in most of those subgroups.

因此，我们有这些被边缘化的群体，他们中的大多数都感受到了极大的压力。

Andrew Huberman: Wouldn't you argue that most everyone is feeling more stressed now?

安德鲁·胡伯曼：你不认为大多数人现在都感到压力更大吗？

Or is it just, what do the data say?

或者只是数据说明了什么？

Elissa Epel: Yeah, so I think that we come with different levels of awareness of our stress.

艾丽莎·埃佩尔：是的，所以我认为我们对压力的认识程度不同。

And so when I find someone who really doesn't feel a lot of stress, sometimes I can see right through that and they're just not aware.

因此，当我发现某人确实没有感受到很大压力时，有时我可以直接看穿这一点，而他们只是没有意识到。

And sometimes it really is true.

有时这确实是真的。

They're often in a different stage of life and they control their environment a lot and they've been through a lot.

他们通常处于人生的不同阶段，他们对环境的控制力很强，并且经历了很多事情。

I mean, one of the big patterns in the population levels of stress is that the older people are less stressed, period.

我的意思是，人口压力水平的主要模式之一是老年人的压力较小。

If you're over 65, you have been through so much, solved so much.

如果你已经超过 65 岁，你已经经历了很多事情，解决了很多问题。

You just have a better perspective on life and on stressors.

你只是对生活和压力有更好的看法。

And then our adults, our young adults have like, four times the level of stress as our older adults.

然后我们的成年人、年轻人的压力水平是老年人的四倍。

We don't have to wait till we get older but there certainly is true wisdom and resilience that comes with age for many people.

我们不必等到变老，但对于许多人来说，随着年龄的增长，确实会有真正的智慧和韧性。

Often we're so used to feeling daily stress from our urban and modern life that we don't notice it.

通常，我们已经习惯了城市和现代生活中的日常压力，以至于我们没有注意到它。

We're just used to it.

我们只是习惯了。

And so we're going through the day with kind of like clenched hands.

所以我们会紧握双手度过这一天。

And just for listeners, just even just taking a check in now and noticing how you might be holding stress in your body, that's a huge clue.

对于听众来说，即使现在只是检查一下并注意你的身体如何承受压力，这也是一个巨大的线索。

It's a huge place where we accumulate tension.

这是一个让我们积累压力的巨大地方。

So we might not be aware that we're stressed, but we're clenching our hands.

所以我们可能没有意识到我们有压力，但我们正在紧握双手。

And in fact, my taxi driver who drove me here let me know that he's exactly that point, that he doesn't realize he's stressed until he realizes that he's tensing his shoulders and his fists.

事实上，开车送我来这里的出租车司机告诉我，他正是这样的人，他没有意识到自己有压力，直到他意识到自己的肩膀和拳头绷紧了。

And so great signal, doing a check in to notice where in our body we're holding stress is step one to releasing it.

这是一个很好的信号，检查一下我们身体的哪个部位承受着压力，这是释放压力的第一步。

Andrew Huberman: So going back to this notion of overthinking, what are the tools that are most efficient for dealing with overthinking or ruminating when people just can't seem to let go of the thing that's the stress or thinking about not the stress in their body, but the thing that caused the stress, the difficult conversation, the thing that irked them on social media or in their personal life or professional life, or simply out in the world.

Elissa Epel: So I wish I had one answer, but I'm going to say lots of strategies tackle that.

Elissa Epel：所以我希望我有一个答案，但我想说有很多策略可以解决这个问题。

And so in those three bins, one are top down strategies of awareness and things that we can say to ourselves, since our beliefs and mindsets can really help us release stress, view stress more positively.

The second bucket is not that the mind changes the body, but the body changes the mind.

第二桶不是思想改变身体，而是身体改变思想。

And those are the set of strategies that you tend to use the most.

这些是您最常使用的策略集。

Right.

正确的。

We're working stress out of the body.

我们正在消除体内的压力。

We're metabolizing it, we're burning it up, and we get relief.

我们正在代谢它，我们正在燃烧它，然后我们得到缓解。

It changes our amygdala activity and moves us to more an experiential state where we're more in our somatosensory cortex.

它改变了我们的杏仁核活动，让我们进入更多的体验状态，更多地处于体感皮层中。

And then the third bucket is change the scene.

然后第三个桶是改变场景。

Just getting away from all the stress triggers that we have in our office or in the city.

只是远离我们在办公室或城市中的所有压力触发因素。

And being in an environment that we find calming, it might even be just be a corner of the house.

在一个我们觉得平静的环境中，它甚至可能只是房子的一个角落。

But implanting what I call safety signals.

但植入我所说的安全信号。

We're just these animals that are conditioned to signals, whether we're aware of it or not.

我们只是这些习惯于信号的动物，无论我们是否意识到这一点。

So having things like comforting pets, pictures, smells, music, why not?

那么拥有一些诸如安慰宠物、图片、气味、音乐之类的东西，为什么不呢？

We need those.

我们需要那些。

They help.

他们帮忙。

They add up.

Andrew Huberman: Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。

I like the idea of having a small physical space.

我喜欢拥有一个小物理空间的想法。

Or I suppose it could be a large physical space.

But for most people who don't have the resources, some small, predesignated physical space that represents a safe zone and creating, or I should say, populating that safe zone with things.

但对于大多数没有资源的人来说，一些小的、预先指定的物理空间代表了一个安全区，并创造了，或者我应该说，用东西填充了这个安全区。

As you said, as a visual neuroscientist, originally, I guess, now I study stress.

正如你所说，作为一名视觉神经科学家，我想，最初我现在研究压力。

But as a visual neuroscientist, we know that photographs are extremely powerful cues for the memory system, especially actual physical photographs.

And I believe there is some work on this.

我相信这方面有一些工作。

That if people keep a photograph of something that draws positive memories, that that photograph actually, they keep it with them.

如果人们保留一张能引起积极记忆的东西的照片，那么实际上，他们就会随身携带这张照片。

That it actually can be a positive cue for alleviating stress and just enhancing mood.

它实际上可以成为缓解压力和改善情绪的积极暗示。

This is probably done less so nowadays because everyone keeps things on their phones and it's just kind of a scroll through.

现在这种做法可能已经很少了，因为每个人都把东西保存在手机上，而且只是滚动浏览。

But in any event, when we talk about stress, it's clear that there's short term, medium term, long term stress.

但无论如何，当我们谈论压力时，很明显存在短期、中期和长期压力。

You've studied all these different forms of stress.

您已经研究了所有这些不同形式的压力。

If you would be so kind as to just give us an overview of the different forms of stress, how we can learn to recognize those.

如果您愿意向我们概述一下不同形式的压力，以及我们如何学习识别这些压力。

And then I'd love to transition from there into talking about some of the work that you've been doing on stress and stress related eating and stress and how it relates to aging in particular.

But before we do that, to make sure everyone's on the same page, if you could just pepper our minds with knowledge about stress in all its beautiful and not so beautiful forms.

但在我们这样做之前，为了确保每个人都在同一页面上，如果你能让我们的头脑充满关于压力的所有美丽和不那么美丽形式的知识。

Elissa Epel: So when we think about stress, we usually think feeling stress, reporting stress, and that's important.

Elissa Epel：所以当我们想到压力时，我们通常会想到感受压力、报告压力，这很重要。

What our body is doing is also important, and it's not always related to our mind.

我们的身体在做什么也很重要，而且它并不总是与我们的思想有关。

So measuring levels of the nervous system and how vigilant we are is another way that we can understand stress.

因此，测量神经系统的水平以及我们的警惕程度是我们了解压力的另一种方式。

And that's particularly important and interesting because that's how stress gets under the skin.

这是特别重要和有趣的，因为这就是压力如何渗透到皮肤之下的。

And we might not be aware, we might report stress, but we're still holding tension and being much more sympathetically dominated, meaning that our body is vigilant and scanning for cues and we don't feel safe.

我们可能没有意识到，我们可能会报告压力，但我们仍然保持紧张，并且更加受同情心支配，这意味着我们的身体保持警惕并寻找线索，我们感到不安全。

And so we're mobilizing a lot more energy than we need to.

因此，我们动员的能量比我们需要的多得多。

And stress is so expensive to the body.

The stress response uses a tremendous amount of energy, ATP, that's made by your mitochondria.

应激反应需要消耗大量由线粒体产生的能量 ATP。

And if we have that kind of vigilant stress response on all day, we're just going to feel exhausted, and we all feel exhausted at this stage of the kind of long shadow of the pandemic.

And it's really no mystery because we're not good at turning the stress response off.

这其实并不神秘，因为我们不擅长关闭压力反应。

And that's what we want to really focus on, is understanding.

这就是我们真正想要关注的，那就是理解。

We need to mount a big stress response to cope with things when we need extra energy, but then we can actually let our body relax and we can turn it off, and that's where the rumination comes, and we want to catch ourselves rehearsing and reliving stress or worrying about the next thing, saying, right now I'm safe.

And there's the breathing strategies.

还有呼吸策略。

I'm right with you.

Where those are the most direct and fast path to reducing stress in the body, period.

这些是减轻身体压力最直接、最快速的途径。

Andrew Huberman: Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。

Our colleague David Spiegel, our associate chair of psychiatry at Stanford, and also a colleague of yours as well, has, I think, said it best, which is that breathing is unique among the functions of the brain, because it really originates as a brain function and then extends, of course, to the body in that it represents a bridge between the conscious and the unconscious, because at any given moment, we're breathing, and of course, at any given moment, we can take control of our breathing.

There are very few brain circuits that impact the body in that way.

很少有大脑回路能以这种方式影响身体。

Like, I can't suddenly just change my rate of digestion because I decide to.

就像，我不能突然改变我的消化速度，因为我决定这样做。

But we can do that with breathing.

但我们可以通过呼吸来做到这一点。

We will definitely get into some of the work that you've been doing on breath, work particular.

我们肯定会参与一些你一直在做的工作，特别是工作。

I know you have a study that's actually explored the Wim Hof Method quite directly, one of the few studies that I'm aware of that's done that.

我知道你们有一项研究实际上非常直接地探索了 Wim Hof 方法，这是我知道的为数不多的研究之一。

So we'll get to that a little bit later.

我们稍后再讨论这个问题。

So you describe stress as a way that the body and mind mobilize energy.

所以你将压力描述为身体和思想调动能量的一种方式。

Elissa Epel: Yeah, and I didn't quite answer your question.

Elissa Epel：是的，我没有完全回答你的问题。

So there's that acute stress response when everything, every hormone and cell in our body is having a stress response, and that is allowing us to reorient, focus, problem solve.

It's really beautiful how much we can increase our capacity to do things during stress, and then if it lasts minutes or hours, we eventually recover.

And that is what happens all day.

这就是一整天发生的事情。

To small extents.

With daily stressors, we don't necessarily get so threatened that we release a lot of cortisol, but our nervous system is going up and down all day.

Then there's kind of moderate stressful events that maybe take days or months to cope with.

然后是一些中等程度的压力事件，可能需要几天或几个月的时间来应对。

And what's important there is that noticing, like right now, am I really coping acutely with something, or can I restore?

重要的是要注意，就像现在一样，我是否真的在认真应对某些事情，或者我可以恢复吗？

So that kind of daily restoration is very important.

所以这种日常的恢复是非常重要的。

And then there are chronically stressful situations that go on for years.

还有持续多年的长期压力情况。

Many of us, not all of us, but many of us have those in our life.

我们很多人，不是所有人，但我们很多人的生活中都有这样的人。

These are situations, I'll just use caregiving as an example that we can't change.

这些都是我们无法改变的情况，我仅以护理为例。

We can't change other people.

We can't change certain situations or resources, and we can be thinking about them chronically, problem solving, trying to wish things were different.

Or we can use acceptance, radical acceptance strategies, and other strategies to live well with them.

或者我们可以使用接受、激进的接受策略以及其他与他们和平相处的策略。

That's a really important strategy for people who feel like their life is going to be stressful forever because of X or Y.

对于那些因为 X 或 Y 感觉自己的生活将永远充满压力的人来说，这是一个非常重要的策略。

That's not true.

那不是真的。

You have a harder life, you're going to do more coping, but you can actually be dealing with uncontrollable chronic stress in ways that it's not going to take that toll on your body.

I mean, I study chronic stress and how it accelerates cell aging, and I can tell you there's so much variance between people.

我的意思是，我研究慢性压力以及它如何加速细胞衰老，我可以告诉你人与人之间存在很大差异。

People are so different.

人们是如此不同。

So among caregivers, some of them look as biologically young or younger than our controls, people with no identifiable, big, tough situation in their life.

Andrew Huberman: I love to hear about the lack of inevitability around aging and stress.

Andrew Huberman：我喜欢听到关于衰老和压力缺乏必然性的说法。

I realize that there's a big landscape of discussion around aging and stress for us to cover.

我意识到围绕衰老和压力有一个很大的讨论领域需要我们讨论。

But since you brought it up in one of your papers, there's a beautiful graph.

但既然你在一篇论文中提出了这个问题，就有了一张漂亮的图表。

And since a lot of people are listening, not watching, and we don't use visual diagrams for that reason, I'll try and explain this as best I can.

由于很多人都在听，而不是在看，因此我们不使用可视化图表，我将尽力解释这一点。

You distinguish between optimal aging, typical aging, and accelerated aging.

您可以区分最佳老化、典型老化和加速老化。

I think everyone I can imagine would want optimal aging, right?

我想我能想象到的每个人都会想要最佳的衰老状态，对吗？

Certainly not accelerated aging.

And what's interesting about this graph in your paper is that while, of course, it appears that toxic stress, chronically unmitigated stress that makes us feel like we are at the world's mercy or the other people's mercy, will accelerate aging.

你论文中这张图的有趣之处在于，当然，有毒的压力、长期得不到缓解的压力会让我们感觉自己受到世界的摆布或他人的摆布，但它似乎会加速衰老。

Turns out that underexposure to stress leads to more rapid aging than what you describe as ideal amounts of stress.

事实证明，与您所描述的理想压力量相比，压力不足会导致更快的衰老。

In other words, that no, stress is not the answer rather, to have some stress is ideal if you want to have so called optimal aging.

换句话说，不，压力并不是答案，如果你想拥有所谓的最佳衰老，那么有一些压力是理想的选择。

Can you explain a little bit about the mechanisms behind that?

Maybe this is a good opportunity also to tell us about your telomere work.

也许这也是向我们介绍您的端粒工作的好机会。

So the questions are, how does one measure optimal versus accelerated aging?

那么问题是，如何衡量最佳老化与加速老化？

And why would it be that some stress is better than no stress when it comes to aging, ideally.

为什么在理想情况下，在衰老方面，有压力比没有压力要好？

Elissa Epel: So having no stress means we're not really living like, we're not engaging in the gifts of life, which are inevitably have some challenge and risk.

Elissa Epel：因此，没有压力意味着我们没有真正生活，我们没有享受生命的礼物，这不可避免地会带来一些挑战和风险。

And let me give you an example.

让我举个例子。

One study took elderly people who have retired, and society kind of labels them as you're kind of done with your meaningful work in life, and you are pretty much not able to contribute to society.

一项研究以退休的老年人为对象，社会给他们贴上这样的标签：你已经完成了生活中有意义的工作，你几乎无法为社会做出贡献。

I mean, there's so many negative stereotypes that people then kind of embody and then live.

我的意思是，有很多负面的刻板印象，人们会体现出来然后生活。

And this program brought them to work in schools and tutor young at risk students.

这个项目让他们到学校工作并辅导处于危险中的年轻学生。

And what happened to them is they went from feeling maybe safe and understressed to feeling challenged, but generative.

他们身上发生的事情是，他们从感到安全和压力不足，转变为感到受到挑战，但富有创造力。

They were feeling more purpose.

他们感觉更有目标了。

They were feeling like they were growing, and they were feeling like their day had more meaning.

他们感觉自己在成长，感觉自己的一天变得更有意义。

They had more relationships.

他们有了更多的关系。

They had these caring relationships with the students.

The students had all sorts of issues and troubles, drugs and maybe not having lunch, poverty.

学生们遇到了各种各样的问题和麻烦，吸毒，也许还没有吃午饭，还有贫困。

And so they felt the stress of that.

所以他们感受到了压力。

But they also saw how much they could help with their support and their tutoring.

And in this study, they took images of the hippocampus.

在这项研究中，他们拍摄了海马体的图像。

And those who engaged in the program, particularly the men, actually had growth of their hippocampus during this program.

而那些参与该项目的人，尤其是男性，在该项目期间实际上他们的海马体有所增长。

So at any stage in life, we can be growing and challenging ourselves, even in our much later years and growing our brain.

因此，在人生的任何阶段，我们都可以成长并挑战自己，即使是在晚年，我们的大脑也在不断成长。

And you know, more than anyone, like, what does that hippocampal growth mean for their well being and their cognitive function?

你比任何人都更清楚，海马体的生长对他们的健康和认知功能意味着什么？

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, it's interesting that hippocampus, of course, a brain area involved in formation and recall of memories, mostly formation of memories, is super interesting because it's so plastic, it's so amenable to the addition of new memories.

I think the most striking study, to me is the one, and I should point out that most of the data say that the addition of new neurons is not the main reason for improvements in memory, but it is one of them.

But Rusty Gage down at the Salk Institute did a study in the, I think the early 2000s where they took terminally ill people, and these people agreed to have their bodies injected with a dye that would label new neurons.

And then after they died, their brains were processed, and they didn't die.

From the dye injection, by the way, folks, they died from other causes.

顺便说一句，伙计们，从注射染料开始，他们就死于其他原因。

They were terminally ill.

他们已病入膏肓。

And what they discovered was that even in terminally ill, and some of these people were quite old, those people were still generating new neurons, especially in the context of still trying to learn and acquire new information.

Of course they're dead, so they can't apply that information after that.

But of course, none of us can.

但当然，我们谁也做不到。

Right?

正确的？

None of the information that.

没有任何信息表明。

Elissa Epel: Elissa Epel : But why not?

艾丽莎·埃佩尔：艾丽莎·埃佩尔：但为什么不呢？

Up to when you die, right?

直到你死的时候，对吗？

Andrew Huberman: Absolutely.

安德鲁·休伯曼：当然。

Elissa Epel: One other example of this, my colleague Dave Almeida.

He measures daily stressful events in huge national populations, and a small percentage of people report no stressors.

他测量了大量全国人口中每天发生的压力事件，一小部分人表示没有压力源。

And so you wonder what's happening?

所以你想知道发生了什么？

Are they not engaging in life?

他们不参与生活吗？

Are they really not having stressors?

他们真的没有压力吗？

It looks like it's not just that they're not getting stressed by things, they're not really going out and doing much.

And what he found is that their level of kind of memory and cognition, their cognitive health was significantly lower.

他发现他们的记忆和认知水平以及认知健康状况明显较低。

So you can imagine the hippocampal, the lack of those neuroprogenetor cells, they're just not being stimulated.

所以你可以想象海马体缺乏那些神经祖细胞，它们只是没有受到刺激。

Andrew Huberman: It's super interesting.

安德鲁·休伯曼：这非常有趣。

I wasn't aware of that result, so I appreciate you sharing it.

我不知道这个结果，所以我很感谢你分享它。

I almost have to wonder if it's like exercise, where so many people, I think now everybody hopefully understands that exercise is going to lower blood pressure, reduce resting heart rate, improve musculoskeletal function and bone density, all that stuff.

But that if you took a snapshot of the bodily response during exercise, blood pressure is way, way up, heart rate is way, way up, stress hormones are way up, cortisol is through the roof during a hard workout immediately afterwards.

但如果你拍一张运动过程中身体反应的快照，你会发现血压急剧上升，心率急剧上升，压力荷尔蒙急剧上升，皮质醇在剧烈运动后立即飙升。

And yet that sets in motion a series of adaptations that brings you to a better place most of the time.

I almost wonder if stress is the same.

我几乎想知道压力是否相同。

Is there any evidence that short bouts of stress, provided that they're managed well, meaning that we don't spend the next 24 or 48 hours ruminating on the stressor, but that we're able to move through the stressor and resolve it in some way that that's actually beneficial for us because of the mobilization of energy stores and maybe even changing our threshold for reacting to stressors in the future.

有没有证据表明，只要管理得好，短暂的压力就意味着我们不会在接下来的 24 或 48 小时里反复思考压力源，而是能够克服压力源并以某种对我们实际上有益的方式解决它，因为能量储存的调动，甚至可能改变我们未来对压力源做出反应的阈值。

Elissa Epel: It's a great question, and it's one that I have been chewing on for a while, because we know, as you said, that physical stressors, when they're short and repeated, like high intensity interval training, they are promoting not just aerobic fitness, but stress fitness.

People feel less rumination, less depression, less anxiety.

人们感觉更少的沉思、更少的抑郁、更少的焦虑。

So they're kind of tuning up the nervous system.

所以他们是在调整神经系统。

What about psychological stressors?

心理压力源怎么办？

And we know two things.

我们知道两件事。

So one is, I do think that there is a level of engagement with moderate stressors, that when we are used to them, we get fit and our stress resilience builds, meaning we're less threatened by them.

So let me go deep into that.

让我深入探讨一下。

Two people can approach the exact same stressor, and one person is having a pretty overreactive stress response where they basically are feeling their survival is threatened.

So it's high cortisol, high vasoconstriction, and blood pressure goes up equally in both.

But the person who's feeling super threatened, either their survival or their social survival of their ego, their blood pressure went up because of the vasoconstriction.

The other person who is viewing the same stressor as I can do this.

This is a great challenge and opportunity.

这是一个巨大的挑战和机遇。

I have what it takes.

我有需要的东西。

Those types of thoughts generate a different hemodynamic response, which is actually more cardiac output.

So blood pressure is going up, but in this healthier way, more oxygenation to the brain, better problem solving, they're able to maintain this positive outlook.

So we've measured this threat challenge response in many lab studies, and we know lots of things.

So if you're having more of the challenge response at the end of it, you're less inflamed.

So just in the lab, within an hour or two, we see that they didn't trigger all that pro inflammatory response, and their telomeres tend to be longer, which is a measure we can talk more about.

But basically it looks like they have a slower speed of aging.

Andrew Huberman: That is super interesting.

安德鲁·休伯曼：这非常有趣。

You call this a stress challenge response.

您将其称为压力挑战反应。

Elissa Epel: So we could call this kind of to be really simplistic, two types of psychological stress response.

Feeling threatened like you're going to fail, you're embarrassed.

That social pain response, we know well, that feels terrible, but also that huge stress response, when we feel it in our stomach, our heart is pounding.

It's just an over exaggerated response.

这只是一个过于夸张的反应。

That response biologically is different, and the thoughts that go with it are different, and we recover a lot slower.

And then there's the challenge response, which is this.

It's more of that kind of activated excited response.

And the beauty is that there are lots of studies out there done by emotions and social psychologists that tilt people toward the challenge response.

We can actually promote that challenge response.

我们实际上可以促进这种挑战的应对。

And so when you asked about is it good to have a repeated stress response?

Yes, if it's manageable, right?

是的，如果它是可以管理的，对吗？

Then we're kind of building the muscle of stress resilience.

Andrew Huberman: I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, Athletic Greens.

Athletic Greens, now called AG1, is a vitamin mineral probiotic drink that covers all of your foundational nutritional needs.

Athletic Greens（现称为 AG1）是一种维生素矿物质益生菌饮料，可满足您的所有基本营养需求。

I've been taking Athletic Greens since 2012, so I'm delighted that they're sponsoring the podcast.

我自 2012 年以来一直在服用 Athletic Greens，所以我很高兴他们赞助这个播客。

The reason I started taking Athletic Greens, and the reason I still take Athletic Greens once or usually twice a day is that it gets me the probiotics that I need for gut health.

Our gut is very important.

我们的直觉非常重要。

It's populated by gut microbiota that communicate with the brain, the immune system, and basically all the biological systems of our body to strongly impact our immediate and long term health.

And those probiotics and Athletic Greens are optimal and vital for microbiotic health.

In addition, Athletic Greens contains a number of adaptogens, vitamins and minerals that make sure that all of my foundational nutritional needs are met.

And it tastes great.

而且味道好极了。

If you'd like to try Athletic Greens, you can go to athleticgreens.com/huberman and they'll give you five free travel packs.That make it really easy to mix up Athletic Greens while you're on the road, in the car, on the plane, etc. And they'll give you a year supply of vitamin D3 K2.

如果您想尝试 Athletic Greens，您可以访问 Athletic Greens.com/huberman，他们会为您提供 5 个免费旅行包。这让您在路上、车里、飞机上等时很容易混合 Athletic Greens。而且他们还会为您提供一年的维生素 D3 K2。

Again, that's athleticgreens.com/huberman to get the five free travel packs and the year supply of vitamin D3 K2

What are the sorts of things that people I can do in order, including me, I should say can do in order to wage that challenge response?

Is this purely based on mindset?

这纯粹是基于心态吗？

Like, instead of saying, why me, why this, why now?

I can't believe this is happening.

我不敢相信这一切正在发生。

Is it a mental pivot to, okay, this is a great opportunity for growth.

I don't know how I'm going to manage this, but I'll manage this.

You want to stop me, you got to kill me type of, type of mindset, is that the switch that then the body follows?

Because this is an interesting instance where most all the stress mitigation work that my lab does is focused on using the body to control the mind.

But here we're talking about the mind controlling the body first and then the body following suit, which I find equally fascinating.

So are there some specific mental scripts that people follow, and are we all able to follow those scripts?

Elissa Epel: Yes, to some extent.

艾丽莎·埃佩尔：是的，在某种程度上。

We control the script.

我们控制剧本。

We can use that script to prepare ourselves going into a stressful situation, and we can use it at any point during the stressor.

So some of us are just wired to have a big threat response period.

Maybe it's epigenetics we've inherited.

也许这是我们遗传的表观遗传学。

Maybe it's early trauma that has shaped us to have this exaggerated emotional response.

And yes, we and others have found that trauma sensitizes our emotional stress response so that we are feeling more threatened.

But that's okay, because that's the part we can't control.

And we just have to have a lot of self compassion and awareness that, okay, this is what I do.

My body reacts like this.

我的身体有这样的反应。

But what happens next?

但接下来会发生什么呢？

That's when we can start to use those statements.

Self comforting, self compassion, distancing.

自我安慰，自我同情，疏远。

There's all sorts of statements that allow us to then recover more quickly.

有各种各样的说法可以让我们更快地恢复。

Andrew Huberman: So when we want to shift from a threatened response to a kind of challenged response, are there any data that dictate whether or not we should keep those statements in our head, write them down, say them out loud?

安德鲁·胡伯曼：那么，当我们想要从威胁性反应转变为挑战性反应时，是否有任何数据可以决定我们是否应该将这些陈述记在脑海中，写下来，大声说出来？

I guess what I'm trying to do here is trying to get to a little bit more of the meat of the actionable, since a lot of our listeners, I think, will be, as I am, very excited about the idea that a mere shift in our mentality about stress can give us the opposite outcome.

我想我在这里想做的是尝试更多地了解可操作的内容，因为我认为我们的很多听众都会像我一样，对这样的想法感到非常兴奋：仅仅改变我们对压力的心态就会给我们带来相反的结果。

Before, you were talking about vasoconstriction and inflammation and all these bad things, to put it lightly.

And then in the challenge response to stress, getting the exact opposite, more vasodilation, more resources used, and more positive effects on the brain.

然后，在对压力的挑战反应中，得到完全相反的结果：更多的血管舒张，使用更多的资源，并对大脑产生更积极的影响。

If you can recall from the papers.

If not, that's fine.

如果没有，那也没关系。

But I'm just curious what those specific tools might be.

Elissa Epel: Every statement you said, Andrew, is good.

It's a good one.

这是一件好事。

The whole trick here is that people need to find the strength statements, the stress shields, I call them, that fit them, that feels right, and that they believe.

这里的整个技巧是，人们需要找到适合他们、感觉正确并且他们相信的力量陈述，我称之为压力盾牌。

And so I list a bunch of options in chapter three, which is called Be the lion instead of the gazelle.

So the lion and gazelle are both high blood pressure, high stress, and the lion's chasing the gazelle.

But the gazelle is having this total threat vasoconstriction response because she might die.

但瞪羚正在产生这种完全的威胁性血管收缩反应，因为她可能会死。

Lion might get dinner, right?

狮子可能会吃晚饭，对吧？

So it's needing to mount the stress response because it's so excited to get the tasty dinner for the next few days.

所以它需要加强压力反应，因为它很高兴能在接下来的几天里吃到美味的晚餐。

And so the lion is having that challenge response.

所以狮子正在做出这种挑战反应。

And so we can remind ourselves, be the lion.

It's not that we're always lion or gazelle.

这并不是说我们总是狮子或瞪羚。

We get to shape that.

我们要塑造它。

And so some of those statements are, let's say, right when we're going into it.

List your resources.

列出你的资源。

Why have you ever dealt with any situation like this, remind yourself of past successes.

Remind yourself of someone you can call or text or feel supported by.

Remind yourself that this outcome is not going to affect your life in ten years or five years.

提醒自己，这个结果不会影响你十年或五年的生活。

That's a distancing kind of perspective taking.

这是一种疏远的观点采择。

So there's all these strategies, and you got to use what works for you, telling yourself, I got this, I can do it, I can get through it, I have what it takes.

所以有所有这些策略，你必须使用对你有用的方法，告诉自己，我明白了，我能做到，我能度过难关，我有能力。

Those are all good shields.

这些都是很好的盾牌。

And another set is some of us feel really stressed out by stress.

另一组是我们中的一些人因压力而感到压力很大。

Like, once we feel our heart racing, that leads to, oh, no, this is bad for me.

就像，一旦我们感到心跳加速，就会导致，哦，不，这对我不好。

And so rather than getting stressed by stress, we actually want to remind ourselves that this stress response is empowering.

This is going to help me cope.

这将帮助我应对。

My body is excited.

我的身体很兴奋。

My body is doing just what it should right now.

So that reframing in studies by Wendy Mendes and others, my colleagues who do this reappraisal research, they have basically trained people to view stress as positive.

因此，温迪·门德斯（Wendy Mendes）和其他人（我的同事们进行了这项重新评估研究）的研究重新构建，他们基本上训练了人们将压力视为积极的。

During the stressful situations in the lab, people do better, they perform better, they feel more positive emotion, they problem solve better, they recover more quickly.

在实验室的压力情况下，人们会做得更好，表现更好，感受到更积极的情绪，更好地解决问题，恢复得更快。

So, pretty powerful stuff.

所以，非常强大的东西。

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, that is powerful stuff.

I'm wondering if we can talk about the relationship between stress and eating.

我想知道我们是否可以谈谈压力和饮食之间的关系。

And I think that's also a great opportunity for us to talk about the opioid system.

A lot of people are familiar with the so called opioid epidemic and opioid crisis.

很多人都熟悉所谓的阿片类药物流行病和阿片类药物危机。

Sadly, far too many people are dying of fentanyl overdoses.

可悲的是，太多人死于芬太尼过量。

And we all know about the OxyContin epidemic and all of these people addicted to opioids.

我们都知道奥施康定流行病和所有这些对阿片类药物成瘾的人。

And that's not really what this is about.

这并不是真正的目的。

What we're about to talk about is the fact that we have an opioid system within us, that is, neurons and other cell types that can release substances into our brain and body that make us feel less pain and make us feel sedated, but at a healthy level.

我们要谈论的是，我们体内有一个阿片类药物系统，即神经元和其他细胞类型，可以向我们的大脑和身体释放物质，使我们感觉减轻疼痛，让我们感到镇静，但处于健康水平。

And yet there are a lot of things besides drugs that can activate this opioid system.

然而，除了药物之外，还有很多东西可以激活这种阿片类药物系统。

I think sex activates the endogenous opioid system.

我认为性会激活内源性阿片系统。

As far as I last read, there was a paper out recently, but also food can do it, and again, to healthy levels, provided the context is healthy, of course.

据我上次读到的，最近有一篇论文发表，但食物也可以做到这一点，而且，当然，前提是健康的环境。

What is the relationship between stress and eating and eating and the opioid system?

压力和饮食以及饮食和阿片类药物系统之间有什么关系？

Elissa Epel: Stress and eating is an interesting one.

Elissa Epel：压力和饮食是一件有趣的事情。

So most people, when they feel stressed, or I'm just going to ask you, do you eat more or less when you're stressed?

所以大多数人，当他们感到有压力的时候，或者我只是想问你，当你有压力的时候，你会吃得更多还是更少？

Andrew Huberman: Less, definitely.

I feel like I can go two, three days without food when I'm really stressed.

当我真的有压力时，我觉得我可以两三天不吃东西。

But I came up in a profession where, sadly for me, all nighters were part of the regular until pretty recently, a couple of years ago, when I just called an end to that.

但对我来说，遗憾的是，在我从事的职业中，通宵达旦一直是常态，直到最近，几年前，我才宣布结束这种情况。

And no, it wasn't just because of procrastination.

不，这不仅仅是因为拖延。

It was just work overload.

这只是工作超负荷。

But I can go a long period of time without eating, although I love to eat, so I do point out that I do love to eat.

但我可以很长一段时间不吃东西，虽然我很爱吃，所以我确实指出我确实很爱吃。

Elissa Epel: And what does the body feel like when you're in that stress state when you're not even hungry?

Elissa Epel：当你处于压力状态且甚至不饿时，身体感觉如何？

You're kind of shut down in your digestion.

你的消化功能有点停止了。

Andrew Huberman: That I have enough energy from my neural resources, from adrenaline.

安德鲁·胡伯曼：我的神经资源和肾上腺素有足够的能量。

And generally those periods of time when I'm not hungry coincide with a hyper focus on the stressor, the deadline, whatever it is in life that needs tending to.

一般来说，当我不饿的时候，我会高度关注压力源、截止日期，以及生活中需要处理的任何事情。

And food just doesn't appeal to me as much.

It doesn't taste as good, and it's not as enticing.

味道没那么好，也没那么诱人。

Elissa Epel: Yeah.

艾丽莎·埃佩尔：是的。

So we think that your type of body temperament is high sympathetic.

所以我们认为您的体质类型是高同情心。

And so when you have a big stress response, your digestion is pretty much shut down.

因此，当你有很大的压力反应时，你的消化系统几乎就会停止运转。

Like it would be the opposite.

好像情况正好相反。

Eating would be the opposite of what your body is telling you to do.

饮食与你的身体告诉你的行为相反。

Andrew Huberman: I'm just going to.

安德鲁·休伯曼：我正要去。

Forgive me for interrupting.

请原谅我打扰。

For those of you hearing sympathetic, we're not talking about sympathy.

对于那些听到同情的人，我们不是在谈论同情。

We're talking about the sympathetic arm of the autonomic nervous system, which is the so called fight or flight arm, as opposed to the parasympathetic.

In any event, sorry to interrupt, but want to make sure that sometimes people hear sympathy and then they think, emotional sympathy.

无论如何，很抱歉打扰，但希望确保有时人们听到同情，然后他们思考，情感上的同情。

I like to think I have that, too.

我喜欢认为我也有这个。

Okay.

好的。

Elissa Epel : So I tend to lean more towards the sympathetic, meaning more alertness, arousal on the seesaw of the autonomic nervous system.

Elissa Epel：所以我更倾向于交感神经，这意味着自主神经系统更加警觉、唤醒。

Elissa Epel: And I'm a high sympathetic reactor.

I lose weight when I go through, like writing my dissertation.

当我经历诸如写论文之类的事情时，我的体重就会减轻。

I look like a skeleton at the end.

我最后看起来就像一具骷髅。

But that's not what most people complain about.

It's not weight loss.

这不是减肥。

Most people complain about overeating or binge eating when they're emotional, when they're stressed.

大多数人在情绪激动或有压力时都会抱怨暴饮暴食。

And so that's the more common pattern.

And that looks different both in the brain and biologically.

这在大脑和生物学上看起来都是不同的。

And so what it looks like is that the stress response is driving cravings and also, let's say, high insulin or an insulin resistant state.

因此，看起来压力反应正在推动食欲，并且，比如说，高胰岛素或胰岛素抵抗状态。

And what goes along with that is tending to be overweight or have obesity.

随之而来的是超重或肥胖的趋势。

And so just by, whether it's through conditioning or genetics, having that kind of larger body with a big stress eating temperament, that is a challenge in life.

因此，无论是通过调节还是遗传，拥有那种更大的身体和巨大的压力饮食气质，这就是生活中的挑战。

And I've worked with people with different eating conditions, eating disorders, binge eating.

我和有不同饮食条件、饮食失调、暴饮暴食的人一起工作过。

And what's hard about it is, number one, it's very common in normatives to just feel like you can't feel satiated.

困难的是，第一，在规范中，感觉无法感到满足是很常见的。

So it's this compulsive eating tendency that stress brings you to.

所以，正是压力让你产生了这种强迫性的饮食倾向。

What it means we measure this, it's very easy to measure.

这意味着我们测量这个，它很容易测量。

It means that people feel like they can't control their eating.

这意味着人们感觉无法控制自己的饮食。

They don't get full, they think about food a lot.

他们吃不饱，他们想很多食物。

And so stress kind of exacerbates that tendency.

And that is a, you know, it's a.

It's a common phenotype.

这是一种常见的表型。

Like, we've studied it, and maybe 50% of people with obesity have that.

就像我们研究过的那样，也许 50% 的肥胖者都有这种情况。

Do lean people have that?

Some.

一些。

Not many, like less than 20%.

But what they also have is this tremendous kind of what we call dietary strain or control over their eating.

但他们也有这种巨大的我们所说的饮食压力或对饮食的控制。

So they are able to not overeat, even though they're thinking about food a lot.

因此，即使他们经常考虑食物，也不会吃得过多。

So that explains that unusual body of someone who really still has those compulsive traits.

这就解释了为什么一个人的身体不寻常，但实际上仍然具有那些强迫性特征。

So why does this matter?

那么为什么这很重要呢？

This makes it really hard to eat well, because when you're stressed, you're craving the comfort food, the high fat, high sugar, high salt, depending on your temperament.

And that means with repeated bouts of stress, you're just going to be gaining weight, and particularly in the intra abdominal area.

这意味着，在反复承受压力的情况下，你的体重只会增加，尤其是腹部区域。

That's what we've seen.

这就是我们所看到的。

We've seen it cross sectionally, we've seen it in rat studies and mice studies, and now we've seen it in people and many studies for about ten years.

I studied this, and the question was, is what's happening in people the same thing that's happening in mice?

我研究了这个，问题是，人类身上发生的事情和老鼠身上发生的事情是一样的吗？

If you stress them out and you give them Oreos, the mice develop binge eating.

如果你给它们施加压力并给它们奥利奥，它们就会暴饮暴食。

They get really compulsive, and they get this terrible metabolic health profile, metabolic syndrome, where their belly fat basically expands like a cushion.

他们变得非常强迫，他们的代谢健康状况很糟糕，即代谢综合症，他们的腹部脂肪基本上像垫子一样膨胀。

And that's because that's this really good, immediate source of energy during stress.

那是因为这是压力期间非常好的、直接的能量来源。

So we're really well wired to, if our body thinks we're under chronic stress, we're going to store stress, fat or abdominal fat, so that we can just mobilize that in a second.

所以我们真的很清楚，如果我们的身体认为我们处于慢性压力之下，我们就会储存压力、脂肪或腹部脂肪，这样我们就可以在一秒钟内动员起来。

And then the second question we've asked is, can you reverse that with different interventions?

我们问的第二个问题是，你能通过不同的干预措施来扭转这一局面吗？

Can you block the compulsive eating?

你能阻止强迫性饮食吗？

So I can tell you what we found there, but the opioid system that you mentioned is certainly involved.

所以我可以告诉你我们在那里发现了什么，但你提到的阿片类药物系统肯定与此有关。

And in studies with lean people and people with obesity, my colleague, Rajita Sinha at Yale, has basically found that when you stress them out, people with obesity are having a different reward response.

在针对瘦人和肥胖者的研究中，我的耶鲁大学同事 Rajita Sinha 基本上发现，当你给他们施加压力时，肥胖者会产生不同的奖励反应。

And the more insulin resistant they are, the more their reward center lights up during stress.

他们的胰岛素抵抗力越强，他们的奖励中心在压力下就越活跃。

Andrew Huberman: And what's causal there?

Andrew Huberman：这其中有什么因果关系吗？

Like, what's the chicken?

比如，什么是鸡？

What's the egg?

鸡蛋是什么？

Because I can imagine these were people that at one time were not obese who got stressed.

因为我可以想象这些人曾经并不肥胖，但现在却感到压力很大。

The opioid system reacted in a particularly potent way to food, and they were able to clamp their stress, and so then they become binge eaters in the context of stress.

阿片类药物系统对食物的反应特别强烈，他们能够抑制压力，因此他们在压力下会暴食。

And that leads to insulin insensitivity.

这会导致胰岛素不敏感。

Elissa Epel: Exactly.

艾丽莎·埃佩尔：没错。

Andrew Huberman: I could also imagine that they were insulin insensitive.

Andrew Huberman：我也可以想象他们对胰岛素不敏感。

Therefore, they need to eat more in order to feel kind of an increase in satiety, as we know this now, based on brain and body mechanisms.

因此，他们需要吃得更多，才能感觉到饱腹感增加，正如我们现在所知道的，基于大脑和身体机制。

And then that set off a cascade of things leading to obesity.

然后引发了一系列导致肥胖的事件。

Not that it necessarily matters, but what's causal, do we know if--

这并不一定重要，但因果关系是什么，我们是否知道——

Elissa Epel: I think it really does matter.

Elissa Epel：我认为这确实很重要。

I think there's been a mistake of kind of confounding all obesity with food addiction and metabolic disease, and it's completely heterogeneous.

我认为将所有肥胖与食物成瘾和代谢疾病混为一谈是错误的，而且它是完全异质的。

So I think it's the developmental path that you're describing, which is that there's a tendency toward having a bigger reward response and hunger during stress.

所以我认为这就是你所描述的发展路径，即在压力下倾向于产生更大的奖励反应和饥饿感。

So it becomes a way of coping a lifestyle, and that is a pathway toward obesity.

因此，它成为应对生活方式的一种方式，也是通向肥胖的途径。

And so some obese people have a dysregulated stress response, but not all of them.

因此，一些肥胖者的压力反应失调，但并非全部。

I mean, it really is a certain type of person.

我的意思是，这确实是某种类型的人。

So that's why we target people with cravings in all of our intervention studies.

这就是为什么我们在所有干预研究中都针对有烟瘾的人。

Now we want to know who has more of the compulsive eating type because they need a different set of skills to cope with stress and to lose weight, if that's their goal.

现在我们想知道谁有更多的强迫性饮食类型，因为他们需要一套不同的技能来应对压力和减肥（如果这是他们的目标）。

Andrew Huberman: There's a drug I'm sure you're familiar with, naltrexone, which can block the opioid receptor.

Andrew Huberman：我相信有一种药物你很熟悉，纳曲酮，它可以阻断阿片受体。

It's used to block the opioid receptor in the context of different types of addiction.

它用于在不同类型的成瘾情况下阻断阿片受体。

Have people tried to use naltrexone in the context of binge eating?

人们是否尝试过在暴饮暴食的情况下使用纳曲酮？

And does it help people lose weight because it presumably reduces some of the rewarding properties of food?

它是否可以帮助人们减肥，因为它可能会减少食物的一些有益特性？

Elissa Epel: That's one of the very few drug combinations that has been used for binge eating.

Elissa Epel：这是极少数用于暴饮暴食的药物组合之一。

So it was a combination of naltrexone and Wellbutrin.

所以它是纳曲酮和维布特林的组合。

And I'm not sure at this moment how much that's favored for binge eating, but certainly the early trials showed that it really does damp down on the compulsive eating.

目前我还不确定它对暴饮暴食有多大影响，但早期的试验确实表明它确实可以抑制暴饮暴食。

Andrew Huberman: Interesting.

安德鲁·休伯曼：有趣。

So is that a commonly prescribed kit of drugs now for obesity?

那么，这是现在治疗肥胖症的常用药物吗？

I know There's a lot of excitement nowadays about these semiglutide analogues, because they do seem very effective in blocking hunger, especially in type two diabetics.

我知道现在人们对这些半鲁肽类似物感到非常兴奋，因为它们似乎在阻止饥饿方面非常有效，尤其是对于二型糖尿病患者。

I don't know if you're familiar with, but, right, there's all the rage, mostly because people saw the before and after photos of Elon.

我不知道你是否熟悉，但是，对，这很风靡，主要是因为人们看到了埃隆前后的照片。

He had his shirt off on a boat, and there were some not so nice comments made about him.

他在船上脱掉了衬衫，有人对他发表了一些不太好的评论。

And then sometime later, he was quite a bit lighter, and he announced that he had been taking one of these semiglutide agonists.

过了一段时间，他的体重减轻了很多，他宣布自己正在服用其中一种半鲁肽激动剂。

Elissa Epel: Yeah, I really hope that we come up with safe and effective drugs.

Elissa Epel：是的，我真的希望我们能研制出安全有效的药物。

And one thing to think about is that the challenge that we all have, particularly if we're prone to obesity, is the toxic food environment and particularly the refined sugar.

需要考虑的一件事是，我们所有人都面临的挑战，特别是如果我们容易肥胖的话，就是有毒的食品环境，尤其是精制糖。

And regardless of what we're on metformin or one of these drugs, we override it with our diet.

无论我们服用二甲双胍或其中一种药物，我们都会通过饮食来克服它。

And really, the improved nutrition is the only way to solve it as a public health problem.

事实上，改善营养是解决这一公共卫生问题的唯一途径。

I mean, the drug companies are saying everyone with a certain BMI should be on one of these new drugs, and it's just rubbish, and it's not going to lead to long term health.

我的意思是，制药公司说每个具有一定体重指数的人都应该服用其中一种新药，但这只是垃圾，不会带来长期健康。

Andrew Huberman: Well, I know you have a colleague there at UCSF, Dr. Robert Lustig, who's been talking about sugars and hidden sugars for years and the problems with that.

安德鲁·胡伯曼：嗯，我知道你在加州大学旧金山分校有一位同事，罗伯特·勒斯蒂格博士，他多年来一直在谈论糖和隐藏的糖以及与之相关的问题。

And we don't want to demonize sugar as the only cause of the obesity epidemic, but it's certainly one of them.

我们不想将糖妖魔化为肥胖流行的唯一原因，但它确实是其中之一。

At least that's my belief, according to the data.

根据数据，至少这是我的信念。

Elissa Epel: Yes.

艾丽莎·埃佩尔：是的。

And Rob is the biggest proponent of helping people understand the big problem.

罗布是帮助人们理解这个大问题的最大支持者。

And the root is in the processed food and the sugar, and that the drugs don't touch, that we override effects of any drugs with our diet.

根源在于加工食品和糖，药物不接触，我们用饮食来克服任何药物的影响。

It's been a losing battle, really, because of the force of big food and big pharma.

这确实是一场失败的战斗，因为大食品和大制药公司的力量。

So let me go back to the compulsive eating.

让我回到强迫性饮食。

So there are some clues about how to break that cycle.

因此，有一些关于如何打破这个循环的线索。

So one is, in our weight loss trials or our healthy mindful eating trials, we find that mindful eating is not going to cause a lot of weight loss, period.

因此，在我们的减肥试验或健康的正念饮食试验中，我们发现正念饮食不会导致大量体重减轻。

But the people who benefit most from learning this kind of calm self regulation, where you check in with your hunger, you slow down, you increase your awareness of your body, so interoceptive awareness, that type of skill is really critical for people with compulsive eating.

但是，从学习这种平静的自我调节中获益最多的人，你会检查自己的饥饿感，放慢速度，提高对身体的意识，因此内感受意识，这种技能对于强迫性饮食的人来说确实至关重要。

And so in our trials, we find that people with compulsive eating, if they get randomized to the mindful eating, they do better in terms of their insulin resistance and their glucose and their long term weight loss.

因此，在我们的试验中，我们发现患有强迫性饮食的人，如果他们被随机分配到正念饮食，他们在胰岛素抵抗、血糖和长期体重减轻方面会做得更好。

So that's one good clue.

所以这是一个很好的线索。

Another is the positive stress pathway looks important for breaking the compulsive eating cycle.

另一个原因是，积极的压力途径对于打破强迫性饮食循环似乎很重要。

So, high intensity interval training, or maybe some of these other ways that we've been talking about to increase the bodily stress in these short term ways to metabolize stress in our body can help with the cravings.

因此，高强度间歇训练，或者我们一直在谈论的一些其他增加身体压力的方法，以这些短期的方式代谢我们体内的压力，可以帮助缓解对食物的渴望。

Andrew Huberman: So what would that look like in the context of, let's say somebody has the opposite phenotype to me, they get stressed and they find themselves reaching for snack food, or that they simply can't reach satiety.

安德鲁·休伯曼：那么，假设某人的表型与我相反，他们感到压力，发现自己伸手去吃零食，或者根本无法达到饱腹感，那么这会是什么样子。

They just want to eat and eat and eat.

他们只是想吃、吃、吃。

What are some of the, aside from naltrexone and Wellbutrin and some of these prescription approaches?

除了纳曲酮和维布特林以及其中一些处方方法之外，还有哪些？

Because I always say, while I certainly value prescription drugs in certain contexts, I always feel like behaviors should come first do's and don'ts, then nutrition, then supplementation, and then if and only if it's still needed, prescription drugs.

因为我总是说，虽然我在某些情况下当然重视处方药，但我总觉得行为应该首先是该做什么和不该做什么，然后是营养，然后是补充品，然后当且仅当仍然需要时才使用处方药。

But that's just my bias, based on my observation.

但这只是我的偏见，基于我的观察。

Elissa Epel: Reasonable.

艾丽莎·埃佩尔：合理。

Andrew Huberman: I like to think so.

安德鲁·休伯曼：我喜欢这样认为。

It starts at a zero cost endeavor.

它从零成本开始。

I mean, behaviors require time, but it certainly includes everybody, not just those that have insurance or that live in a particular region of the US or the world.

我的意思是，行为需要时间，但它肯定包括每个人，而不仅仅是那些拥有保险或居住在美国或世界特定地区的人。

So anyway, that's my bias, and at least for the time being, I'm sticking with it.

所以无论如何，这是我的偏见，至少目前，我会坚持下去。

It's the basis of a lot of what we talk about on this podcast.

这是我们在这个播客中谈论的很多内容的基础。

But nonetheless, if somebody is finding themselves in that category of binge eating, or heading towards binge eating, or using food to comfort or alleviate stress, how should they intervene in their own thoughts and behavior?

但尽管如此，如果有人发现自己属于暴饮暴食的范畴，或者正走向暴饮暴食，或者用食物来安慰或缓解压力，他们应该如何干预自己的想法和行为？

Elissa Epel: We talked about the bins, top down strategies, changing the body, changing the scene.

Elissa Epel：我们讨论了垃圾箱、自上而下的策略、改变身体、改变场景。

We need all of those.

我们需要所有这些。

I mean, the compulsive drive to eat is one of our strongest impulses, if we've developed that pathway.

我的意思是，如果我们已经发展了这条途径，那么强迫性地吃东西就是我们最强烈的冲动之一。

And so we train people, for example, in mindful awareness of separating out emotions from hunger, so they get really wrapped up together.

例如，我们训练人们有意识地将情绪与饥饿分开，这样他们就能真正地融为一体。

So just labeling how you're feeling, labeling your hunger from one to ten, and figuring out, am I really hungry, or is it boredom that helps people?

所以只需标记你的感受，将你的饥饿标记为从一到十，然后弄清楚，我真的饿了，还是无聊可以帮助别人？

And if you do that check in right before you eat, that helps the most.

如果你在吃饭前检查一下，那就最有帮助了。

So that's the top down, mindful check in.

这就是自上而下、细心的检查。

The other thing we help people do is ride the craving, surf the urge.

我们帮助人们做的另一件事是驾驭渴望，驾驭冲动。

So we deal a lot with soda drinkers, and it is addictive, and there is nothing worse than drinking sugared soda for our body.

所以我们经常和喝汽水的人打交道，汽水很容易让人上瘾，没有什么比喝含糖汽水对我们的身体更糟糕的了。

So we help people by having them watch their craving pass and knowing that it's a matter of time, that they can surf the urge without jumping too consuming.

因此，我们帮助人们观察自己的渴望，并知道这只是时间问题，他们可以在不过度消耗的情况下满足这种渴望。

And so that practice helps some people, especially with practice, the push ups, the taking a walk, the changing the scene, getting away from food is always going to be a huge, strong strategy if you can get yourself away from it.

因此，这种练习对一些人有帮助，尤其是通过练习，俯卧撑、散步、改变场景、远离食物总是一个巨大而有力的策略，如果你能让自己远离它的话。

The problem is, as you know, is that the cravings get you to the buffet, they drive you to the soda, etc. And so just creating safe environments, both at home and in the workplace where you don't have soda, is really important.

正如你所知，问题是，渴望让你去吃自助餐，它们驱使你去喝苏打水等等。因此，无论是在家里还是在工作场所，在没有苏打水的情况下，创造安全的环境非常重要。

So we tried that at UCSF, my colleagues and I, including Rob Lustig, the anti sugar doctor, we just saw the absurdity of being a medical center.

所以我们在加州大学旧金山分校尝试过，我和我的同事，包括抗糖医生罗布·勒斯蒂格（Rob Lustig），我们只是看到了作为医疗中心的荒谬之处。

People come with these chronic diseases, and what are they served in the cafeteria or even at their bedside?

人们患有这些慢性疾病，他们在食堂甚至床边吃什么？

Sugared Coke.

加糖可乐。

Andrew Huberman: In the hospital.

安德鲁·休伯曼：在医院里。

Elissa Epel: In the hospital.

艾丽莎·埃佩尔：在医院里。

And so my colleague Laura Schmidt, who's partly responsible for the soda tax, she rallied.

因此，我的同事劳拉·施密特（Laura Schmidt）（她对苏打水税负有部分责任）站了起来。

We went top down to administration, but bottom up to vendors, got rid of all the soda in all of our hospitals and campuses.

我们自上而下到行政部门，但自下而上到供应商，取消了我们所有医院和校园中的所有苏打水。

And we found two things.

我们发现了两件事。

Number one, people who were heavy drinkers lost weight in the most important place, their waist.

第一，酗酒者最重要的部位——腰部——的体重减轻了。

Andrew Huberman: Heavy soda drinkers?

安德鲁·休伯曼：大量喝苏打水的人？

Elissa Epel: So when we took it out of the workplace, their health improved.

Elissa Epel：所以当我们把它带出工作场所时，他们的健康状况得到了改善。

And number two, those with compulsive eating, they score high on our little scale for reward based drive.

第二，那些有强迫性饮食的人，他们在我们基于奖励的驱动力的小尺度上得分很高。

It didn't help them.

这对他们没有帮助。

So then we randomize half of them to get some extra boost.

因此，我们将其中一半随机化以获得额外的提升。

We call it motivational interviewing, where we're really supporting them more and helping them think of goals like being with their grandchildren, not getting diabetes.

我们称之为激励性访谈，我们真正为他们提供更多支持，并帮助他们思考目标，例如与孙辈在一起，而不是患上糖尿病。

And that little bit of support helped them tremendously.

一点点的支持对他们帮助很大。

And so now we are trying to roll that out in a big controlled trial.

所以现在我们正试图在一项大型对照试验中推广这一点。

But at least 100 hospitals have adopted the stop selling sugary drinks because people don't want to be sick, but they can't help it if they have the reward drive and if they have the compulsivity.

但至少有100家医院已经采取了停止销售含糖饮料的措施，因为人们不想生病，但如果他们有奖赏驱动力，如果他们有强迫性，他们就无法控制。

And it's right there at work, we're just working against health.

就在工作中，我们所做的只是损害健康。

Andrew Huberman: That's super interesting.

安德鲁·休伯曼：这非常有趣。

I think that for most of us, we think about soda as the kind of thing that maybe we have every once in a while, or that we drank more when we were kids.

我认为对于我们大多数人来说，我们认为苏打水是我们偶尔喝的东西，或者是我们小时候喝得更多的东西。

I seemed to have lost my appetite for soda at some point.

我似乎在某个时刻失去了对苏打水的胃口。

Elissa Epel: You just know too much.

艾丽莎·埃佩尔：你知道的太多了。

Elissa Epel : Andrew Huberman: Teen years, maybe, or just at some point, I started to feel like there were better alternatives.

艾丽莎·埃佩尔（Elissa Epel）：安德鲁·休伯曼（Andrew Huberman）：青少年时期，也许，或者只是在某个时候，我开始觉得有更好的选择。

Elissa Epel: Like what?

艾丽莎·埃佩尔：比如什么？

People want ideas?

人们想要想法吗？

Elissa Epel : Andrew Huberman: Well, full confession.

艾丽莎·埃佩尔（Elissa Epel）：安德鲁·休伯曼（Andrew Huberman）：嗯，完全坦白。

I mean, most of my non water beverage consumption is going to be either coffee, usually black coffee, or nowadays I sometimes will throw some ketones in there.

我的意思是，我消耗的大部分非水饮料要么是咖啡，通常是黑咖啡，要么现在我有时会在里面加入一些酮。

Not because I'm on a ketogenic diet, but I do feel like it makes my level of focus and cognition--

不是因为我在吃生酮饮食，而是我确实觉得它提高了我的注意力和认知水平——

Is that what you were pouring in this morning?

这就是你今天早上倒的东西吗？

Yeah, I do use it before podcasts, and we were prepping for podcasts.

是的，我确实在播客之前使用它，我们正在为播客做准备。

There are good data showing that we can all utilize ketones as a brain fuel, even if we're not on ketogenic diet.

有充分的数据表明，即使我们没有进行生酮饮食，我们都可以利用酮作为大脑燃料。

That's clear to me based on my experience and the data as I see them and understand them.

根据我的经验和我看到并理解的数据，我很清楚这一点。

Or yerba mate tea, which is just a caffeinated tea from South America, which I like very much.

或者马黛茶，这是一种来自南美的含咖啡因的茶，我非常喜欢。

However, I am guilty of drinking the occasional diet soda every once in a while, and I know, know some of my audience will just gasp, how could I do that?

然而，我对偶尔喝点无糖汽水感到内疚，我知道，我知道我的一些观众会喘不过气来，我怎么能这么做呢？

But we're talking about the occasional Diet Coke.

但我们谈论的是偶尔喝的健怡可乐。

Elissa Epel: Diet soda?

艾丽莎·埃佩尔：无糖汽水？

Andrew Huberman: The occasional Diet Coke, mostly because I don't like the taste of sugary soda, and I actually really like the taste of Diet soda.

Andrew Huberman：偶尔喝点健怡可乐，主要是因为我不喜欢含糖汽水的味道，而我其实很喜欢健怡汽水的味道。

Aspartame is a particularly rewarding taste for me, and as a consequence, I try and avoid drinking it more than I might have a can of Diet Coke once a month, maximum, usually on a plane or something like that.

阿斯巴甜对我来说是一种特别有益的味道，因此，我尽量避免喝它的次数超过每月一次喝一罐健怡可乐的次数，通常是在飞机上或类似的地方。

So that's the extent of it.

这就是它的范围。

But if I have the choice between a really great coffee and a soda, it's going to be coffee or yerba mate and a soda, it's going to be yerba mate or food and soda, I'm going to eat instead.

但如果我可以在一杯很棒的咖啡和一杯苏打水之间做出选择，我会选择咖啡或马黛茶和苏打水，我会选择马黛茶或食物和苏打水，我会选择吃东西。

And so that's me.

这就是我。

But I do recall as a teenager, soda was kind of a default.

但我确实记得十几岁的时候，苏打水是默认的。

You just kind of like, go to the soda fountain and fill the drink.

你只是喜欢去冷饮柜倒满饮料。

It felt like such a rewarding thing.

感觉这是一件非常值得的事情。

And I think the reason we're drilling into this more deeply is it sounds to me, based on what you said earlier in my read of the literature, also brings me the idea that drinking sugar in the form of liquid is one of the worst things that we can do in terms of our bodily regulation of insulin and glucose.

我认为我们更深入地研究这个问题的原因是，根据你之前在我阅读的文献中所说的，这对我来说听起来也让我意识到，就身体对胰岛素和葡萄糖的调节而言，饮用液体形式的糖是我们能做的最糟糕的事情之一。

I don't want to use the words empty calories, because that's kind of a loaded phrase, but it is essentially empty calories.

我不想使用空卡路里这个词，因为这是一个负载词，但它本质上是空卡路里。

It doesn't.

事实并非如此。

Elissa Epel: Well, it's harmful calories.

艾丽莎·埃佩尔：嗯，这是有害的卡路里。

They're not empty.

它们不是空的。

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, I mean, there are no amino acids in there, there are no essential fatty acids, and there aren't many carbohydrates that you can really utilize for long term bouts of mental or physical work.

安德鲁·休伯曼：是的，我的意思是，里面没有氨基酸，没有必需脂肪酸，也没有多少碳水化合物可以真正用于长期的脑力或体力工作。

Do you view soda as one of the worst, certainly not the best, but one of the worst culprits out there.

您是否认为苏打水是最糟糕的饮料之一，当然不是最好的，但也是最糟糕的罪魁祸首之一？

I mean, it is really prominent, especially nowadays.

我的意思是，它确实很突出，尤其是在当今。

Also, we should include energy drinks a lot of kids, especially males.

此外，我们应该让很多孩子，尤其是男性，喝能量饮料。

By the way, this is crazy.

顺便说一下，这太疯狂了。

It's almost 95% of energy drink consumption is males.

几乎95%的能量饮料消费是男性。

Elissa Epel: Interesting.

艾丽莎·埃佩尔：有趣。

Andrew Huberman: And I don't know why it is.

Andrew Huberman：我不知道为什么会这样。

Maybe it's the packaging or how the marketing has been pitched.

也许是包装或营销方式的问题。

But by the way, as soon as I say that, someone will be in the YouTube comments telling me that that's completely false, but we can point you to the data.

但顺便说一句，我一这么说，YouTube 评论中就会有人告诉我这完全是错误的，但我们可以向您提供数据。

So what are your thoughts on sugary drinks and what that's doing?

那么您对含糖饮料有何看法以及它的作用是什么？

Do you think this is a reaction to how much stress people are experiencing?

您认为这是对人们承受的压力的反应吗？

Is this like people's attempt to inoculate their stress?

这是否就像人们试图宣泄压力一样？

Or is it simply that it tastes good and it's easy to consume and it's relatively inexpensive?

或者只是因为味道好、容易食用、价格相对便宜？

Elissa Epel: People have not, and we have not really studied the sugary drinks in the same way we have studied the comfort food and the binge eating.

Elissa Epel：人们没有，我们也没有像研究舒适食品和暴饮暴食那样真正研究含糖饮料。

And so my guess is that it is part of a stress response.

所以我的猜测是这是压力反应的一部分。

But even more than that, it's part of the hedonic cycle.

但更重要的是，它是享乐循环的一部分。

So when you get the sugar, especially if it's packed with caffeine, that's going to be a more addictive drink.

因此，当你喝到糖时，特别是如果它富含咖啡因，这将是一种更容易上瘾的饮料。

You get this really feel good response right away, and then you get the low and it's the hedonic withdrawal, which is this.

你立刻就会得到这种感觉很好的反应，然后你就会感到低落，这就是享乐退缩，就是这样。

You actually feel bad when it's been a while since you've had it.

当你已经有一段时间没有吃过它时，你实际上会感觉很糟糕。

And so then it drives the compulsivity.

所以它驱动了强迫性。

You want it again because.

你又想要它，因为。

Not because you want to feel good.

不是因为你想要感觉良好。

You want to get rid of feeling bad.

你想摆脱糟糕的感觉。

So that's what happens with both food addiction and we think that happens with sugary drinks.

这就是食物成瘾所发生的情况，我们认为含糖饮料也会发生这种情况。

Now, let me tell you that when you asked, is a sugary drink one of the worst things we can do for our health?

现在，让我告诉你，当你问，含糖饮料是我们对健康最糟糕的事情之一吗？

Yes, because sugary food doesn't go to our brain as quickly as a liquid sugar, a sugary drink.

是的，因为含糖食物不像液态糖、含糖饮料那样快速进入我们的大脑。

So think about cocaine and crack.

所以想想可卡因和快克。

Crack goes to the brain immediately, and it's that much more addictive.

快克立即进入大脑，而且更容易上瘾。

That's how we think of liquid sugar.

这就是我们对液体糖的看法。

Andrew Huberman: The view on sugar, I think, is starting to change.

Andrew Huberman：我认为，人们对糖的看法正在开始改变。

And I think in the years to come, provided folks like you and Dr. Lustig continue to be vocal about it, which I hope you will, I think it's going to shift things quite a bit.

我认为，在未来的几年里，只要像您和勒斯蒂格博士这样的人继续对此发声（我希望您会这样做），我认为这将大大改变事情。

I look at it a little bit like trans fats.

我认为它有点像反式脂肪。

When I was growing up, people ate margarine, and now trans fats are banned in many cities.

在我成长的过程中，人们吃人造黄油，现在许多城市都禁止使用反式脂肪。

It's kind of incredible how these things have changed over time.

随着时间的推移，这些事情发生了怎样的变化，真是令人难以置信。

And it requires an effort, not just on social media, but podcasts and I think also lobbying our politicians, really getting them to understand just how pernicious this stuff is.

这需要努力，不仅在社交媒体上，而且在播客上，我认为还需要游说我们的政客，真正让他们了解这些东西有多么有害。

Elissa Epel: There's a lot of social norms that go into what's good for all of us as a group or community.

Elissa Epel：有很多社会规范对我们所有人作为一个群体或社区都有好处。

And what's personal choice gets very fiery.

个人选择变得非常激烈。

I've heard a colleague talking about how bringing junk food or soda to work is like passive smoking.

我听一位同事说，带垃圾食品或苏打水上班就像被动吸烟一样。

You're like, you're bringing something in that's going to pollute other people's health and you shouldn't do it.

你就像，你带了一些会污染其他人健康的东西，你不应该这样做。

So that's much more edgy and people will fight them on that.

所以这更加尖锐，人们会因此而与他们作斗争。

But the basic reality is, yeah, we're going to eat the donuts if they're in front of us.

但基本的现实是，是的，如果甜甜圈在我们面前，我们就会吃掉它们。

And so it is much more considerate to bring a bowl of fruit.

所以带一碗水果就更体贴了。

Andrew Huberman: I do love a good donut.

安德鲁·休伯曼：我确实喜欢好吃的甜甜圈。

Elissa Epel: Oh, me too that's my weakness.

Elissa Epel：哦，我也是，这是我的弱点。

Andrew Huberman: Cue the certain circuit in my brain.

Andrew Huberman：提示我大脑中的特定回路。

I'm glad you brought up smoking.

我很高兴你提到吸烟。

I don't want to take us off topic, but as long as we're venturing into these general, or I should say more general and yet really important themes around public health and food, I learned something interesting about smoking and why so few people now smoke.

我不想让我们偏离主题，但只要我们冒险进入这些一般性的话题，或者我应该说更普遍但又非常重要的公共卫生和食品主题，我就学到了一些关于吸烟的有趣知识，以及为什么现在吸烟的人这么少。

I always thought that the campaigns around smoking and how terrible it is for us, showing pictures of lungs that are caked with all this tar and cancer and all this stuff was the effective message.

我一直认为围绕吸烟及其对我们来说有多可怕的运动，展示肺部结块的焦油和癌症以及所有这些东西的照片是有效的信息。

But what I learned was that one of the most effective messaging systems in the battle against smoking was to get young people to stop smoking, not by telling them it was bad for them, but by showing them videos of these rich men sitting around tables cackling about the fact that they're making so much money on the health problems of other people because of smoking.

但我了解到，与吸烟作斗争的最有效的信息系统之一是让年轻人戒烟，不是告诉他们吸烟对他们有害，而是向他们播放这些富人围坐在桌子旁咯咯笑的视频，告诉他们他们因为吸烟而在其他人的健康问题上赚了很多钱。

In other words, what they did is they made being a non smoker, anti establishment.

换句话说，他们所做的就是成为一个不吸烟者、反体制人士。

And so I find it very interesting.

所以我觉得这很有趣。

Anytime there's something like soda or highly processed foods that are so woven into the establishment, it seems like we can tell people until we're blue in the face about all the health concerns with these things.

每当有像苏打水或高度加工食品这样的东西融入到企业中时，我们似乎都可以告诉人们这些东西带来的所有健康问题，直到我们脸色发青。

Sugar is bad and this is bad.

糖不好，这也不好。

Highly processed food is bad.

高度加工的食品是不好的。

Some people might change their behavior, but it seems like for the younger generation, the thing that's most effective is to activate their sense of rebellion.

有些人可能会改变自己的行为，但对于年轻一代来说，似乎最有效的就是激活他们的叛逆意识。

This has been true for probably hundreds of thousands of years, but it's certainly true in the last hundred years.

这可能已经有数十万年了，但在过去的一百年里确实如此。

And let them see that there is a very strong big food, sometimes big pharma, but certainly big food system that is working against them, and that in order to take control of their health, actually we want to activate their sense of rebellion so that they're like, no, I'm going to take excellent care of myself.

让他们看到，有一个非常强大的大食品，有时是大制药公司，但肯定是大食品系统正在对他们不利，为了控制他们的健康，实际上我们想激活他们的叛逆感，这样他们就会说，不，我要好好照顾自己。

I'm not going to fall victim to this monetary scheme.

我不会成为这个货币计划的受害者。

And here I'm not pointing to any conspiracy.

在这里我并不是指任何阴谋。

I mean, this has been seen with smoking.

我的意思是，这在吸烟时就已经出现过。

This has been seen with a number of different pharmaceuticals.

许多不同的药物都出现了这种情况。

Again, not all pharmaceuticals are bad.

再说一遍，并非所有药物都是不好的。

This is true of a number of different aspects of kind of big marketing.

对于大型营销的许多不同方面来说都是如此。

Elissa Epel: Absolutely.

艾丽莎·埃佩尔：当然。

It's like pull the blinders off, let people know that we're vulnerable to all the marketing and that there really are suppression of data behind a lot of it.

这就像拉掉眼罩，让人们知道我们很容易受到所有营销的影响，而且很多营销背后确实存在数据压制。

So it's happening with eating disorders, too.

饮食失调也会发生这种情况。

Eric Stice, who's at Stanford with you, has been using this method, we call it dissonance, showing people with eating disorders how the food industry has been manipulative and has tried to design food for addiction for the highest bang for the buck with dopamine, etc. And so that has helped reduce eating disorders in these studies, and it has even helped reduce reward drive.

和你一起在斯坦福大学的埃里克·斯蒂斯（Eric Stice）一直在使用这种方法，我们称之为不和谐，向患有饮食失调症的人展示食品工业是如何操纵的，并试图通过多巴胺等设计出最高性价比的成瘾食品。因此，这有助于减少这些研究中的饮食失调症，甚至有助于减少奖励驱动。

Isn't that amazing that the dissonance could do that?

不和谐音能做到这一点，这不是很神奇吗？

Andrew Huberman: So interesting.

安德鲁·休伯曼：太有趣了。

Yeah, I think what it's telling us is that few things are as strong as the "no, I won't".

是的，我认为它告诉我们的是，没有什么比“不，我不会”更强烈的了。

I refuse to response in terms of changing behavior, especially when there's something to push against.

我拒绝以改变行为的方式做出回应，尤其是当有一些事情需要反对时。

So it's not just a battle with ourselves.

所以这不仅仅是我们与自己的战斗。

I want the soda, but I'm not going to drink it.

我想要苏打水，但我不会喝。

I want it, but I want it because you are making me think I want it.

我想要它，但我想要它，因为你让我觉得我想要它。

I don't actually want that.

我其实并不想要那样。

So I don't know, maybe this is getting me back into my teenage mindset.

所以我不知道，也许这让我回到了青少年时期的心态。

But I think a sense of rebellion, provided it's in the direction of health, one's own health and the health of others, of course, can be a positive thing.

但我认为，叛逆感，只要是朝着健康、自己和他人健康的方向发展，当然可以是一件积极的事情。

Elissa Epel: Well, we do that with the mindful eating.

艾丽莎·埃佩尔：嗯，我们通过正念饮食来做到这一点。

We have them bring in the junkiest processed food they can think of like a Twinkie, and eat that really slowly and mindfully.

我们让他们带来他们能想到的最垃圾的加工食品，比如奶油夹心蛋糕，然后慢慢地、用心地吃。

And few people finish it.

而且很少有人能完成它。

They're like, that actually wasn't nearly as good as the picture of it and the idea of it.

他们认为，这实际上并不像它的图片和它的想法那么好。

And so it's like that reward predictive error that you've talked about where they think the brain is driving them to have it because of the advertising and their expectation that they'll feel good.

这就像你谈到的奖励预测错误，他们认为大脑驱使他们这样做，因为广告和他们对自己感觉良好的期望。

But if they're really paying attention, it's a very disappointing experience.

但如果他们真的注意到的话，这将是一次非常令人失望的经历。

Versus we also have people savor a piece of good chocolate, whichever they like, milk or dark.

与此相反，我们还让人们品尝一块优质巧克力，无论他们喜欢什么，牛奶巧克力还是黑巧克力。

And that experience teaches them to eat slowly and really enjoy small amounts of rewarding food so that they don't need to feel full and binge.

这种经历教会他们慢慢吃东西，真正享受少量有益的食物，这样他们就不需要感到饱和暴饮暴食。

Andrew Huberman: So interesting.

安德鲁·休伯曼：太有趣了。

Dark or milk chocolate dark?

黑巧克力还是牛奶巧克力黑？

Elissa Epel: Dark.

艾丽莎·埃佩尔：黑暗。

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, I actually like the 100% chocolate.

Andrew Huberman：是的，我实际上喜欢 100% 巧克力。

There's one brand of Venezuelan chocolate that's 100%, which sounds, it might sound awful, but it's actually quite good.

有一种品牌的委内瑞拉巧克力是 100% 的，听起来可能很糟糕，但实际上相当不错。

I think that was the first time I could actually taste the real elements of chocolate.

我想那是我第一次真正品尝到巧克力的真正成分。

Elissa Epel: Interesting.

艾丽莎·埃佩尔：有趣。

Yeah.

是的。

That is not rewarding.

那是没有回报的。

It's way too bitter for me.

这对我来说太苦了。

I need the mouthfeel.

我需要的是口感。

Give me some fat in it.

给我一些脂肪在里面。

Andrew Huberman: It's hard to find, but it's out there.

Andrew Huberman：很难找到，但它就在那里。

So while we're talking about stress eating, obesity and here, we've also broadened the discussion to include different generations.

因此，当我们在这里谈论压力饮食、肥胖时，我们还将讨论范围扩大到包括不同的世代。

We're talking about teens and adults.

我们正在谈论青少年和成人。

I'd love for you to share with us your findings around this study that you did of pregnant women and how stress and pregnancy and different patterns of eating and physiological changes that people experience during pregnancy.

我希望您能与我们分享您对孕妇所做的这项研究的发现，以及压力与怀孕以及人们在怀孕期间经历的不同饮食模式和生理变化的关系。

Could you share with us what those findings were?

您能与我们分享一下这些发现吗？

Because I think those are relevant not just to people who are pregnant or planning to become pregnant, but to everybody, because I think they shed light on how we manage stress and sometimes how we fail to manage stress.

因为我认为这些不仅与怀孕或计划怀孕的人相关，而且与每个人相关，因为我认为它们揭示了我们如何管理压力，以及有时我们如何无法管理压力。

Elissa Epel: Yeah.

艾丽莎·埃佩尔：是的。

So with overweight and obesity, we know we can't just change calories.

因此，对于超重和肥胖，我们知道我们不能仅仅改变卡路里。

It's just not going to work.

这是行不通的。

The next stressful event is going to come along and people will go back to what their brain is driving them to do is to binge on comfort food.

下一个压力事件将会出现，人们会回到大脑驱使他们做的事情，那就是暴饮暴食安慰食物。

And so we've done these interventions with men and women that show that we can help them regulate using some of these mindful eating strategies.

因此，我们对男性和女性进行了这些干预措施，表明我们可以帮助他们使用一些正念饮食策略进行调节。

Checking in.

正在办理登机手续。

We wanted to do this with pregnant women because when you have excess weight and you're pregnant, you're really vulnerable to gaining excessive weight during pregnancy, which is not healthy for the mom or the offspring.

我们希望对孕妇进行这项研究，因为当您体重超重并且怀孕时，您在怀孕期间很容易体重增加过多，这对母亲或后代都不健康。

So we did this study.

所以我们做了这项研究。

It took us probably ten years total to get the grant and recruit groups of ten women who are pregnant in the same stage and give them this training in mindful eating, mindful nutrition, stress reduction.

我们总共花了大概十年的时间才获得资助，并招募了十名处于同一阶段怀孕的女性，并对她们进行了正念饮食、正念营养和减压方面的培训。

And then my colleague Nikki Bush has been following the babies for, I think it's been almost ten years since then.

然后我的同事尼基布什一直在跟踪这些婴儿，我想从那时起已经快十年了。

And here's what we found.

这就是我们的发现。

First of all, we couldn't stop excess weight gain.

首先，我们无法阻止体重过度增加。

The women in the control group gained, about 60% of them gained excess weight during pregnancy, and same with our mindful group.

对照组的女性体重增加了，大约60%的女性在怀孕期间体重增加，与我们正念组的情况相同。

So maybe it's end of story.

所以也许故事就结束了。

You'd stop there and say, it fails, don't do it.

你会在那里停下来说，它失败了，不要这样做。

There have been so many beautiful developments in the women who got the training that we just keep are being shocked by how impactful this stress reduction training was.

接受我们持续培训的女性取得了如此多的美好进步，她们对这种减压培训的影响力感到震惊。

It was just two months of their life, but pregnancy is a very critical period when these women were changing their habits, and they're very motivated to help their baby.

虽然这只是她们生命中的两个月，但怀孕是这些女性改变习惯的非常关键的时期，她们非常积极地帮助自己的宝宝。

So here's what we found.

这就是我们的发现。

Within that first month of the intervention, they all got this oral glucose tolerance test.

在干预的第一个月内，他们都进行了口服葡萄糖耐量测试。

So they got a blood test to see how well their body was metabolizing food sugar.

因此，他们进行了血液测试，看看他们的身体代谢食物糖的情况如何。

And so it's like a prebiote diabetes test.

这就像益生元糖尿病测试。

And what we found was that twice as many women in the no treatment control group had impaired glucose tolerance during pregnancy.

我们发现，未接受治疗的对照组中有两倍的女性在怀孕期间出现糖耐量受损。

It's a common high risk.

这是一种常见的高风险。

And half that many women had this in the mindfulness group.

正念小组中有一半的女性有这种情况。

So by reducing stress, they improved their insulin sensitivity during pregnancy.

因此，通过减轻压力，她们提高了怀孕期间的胰岛素敏感性。

So imagine what that's doing to the baby, too.

所以想象一下这对婴儿也会造成什么影响。

Then the babies have come out with less obesity, less illnesses in their first year of life, and more of this kind of healthy stress response when they've been stressed out in the lab study.

然后，这些婴儿在出生后第一年的肥胖率和患病率都降低了，而且当他们在实验室研究中承受压力时，这种健康的压力反应也会更多。

And so then eight years later, we looked at the mental health of the mom.

八年后，我们研究了这位母亲的心理健康状况。

So right after the intervention, eight weeks later, everyone in our mindfulness stress reduction group felt great.

因此，干预结束后，即八周后，我们正念减压小组的每个人都感觉很棒。

They felt less depressed, they had less stress and less anxiety.

他们感到不那么沮丧，压力和焦虑也更少。

That's what you'd expect, right?

这就是你所期望的，对吧？

I mean, they'd just gone to a weekly class.

我的意思是，他们刚刚参加了每周一次的课程。

They got all the support.

他们得到了所有人的支持。

But eight years later, they still showed improved mental health.

但八年后，他们的心理健康状况仍然有所改善。

Every year that we measured them, they still looked better.

每年我们测量它们时，它们看起来仍然更好。

So it's probably one of the longest studies looking at long term effects of a mindfulness training.

因此，这可能是关注正念训练的长期影响的最长的研究之一。

And I don't think it was a coincidence that it was during pregnancy.

我不认为这是在怀孕期间的巧合。

I think this is a very important time to have these skills.

我认为现在是掌握这些技能的非常重要的时刻。

And being in a group adds that social support piece that we know is powerful.

我们知道，加入一个团体可以增加强大的社会支持。

Andrew Huberman: It's an incredible result.

Andrew Huberman：这是一个令人难以置信的结果。

Could you share with us what the mindfulness intervention was and when it was initiated, when it was stopped?

您能否与我们分享一下正念干预是什么以及何时开始、何时停止？

So we're talking about ten minutes a day of meditation.

所以我们谈论的是每天十分钟的冥想。

As many details as you can possibly give us, because I know, even though I don't think I'll ever be pregnant, I don't plan on it.

您可以向我们提供尽可能多的细节，因为我知道，即使我认为我不会怀孕，我也不打算怀孕。

Elissa Epel : Elissa Epel: You never know.

艾丽莎·埃佩尔 : 艾丽莎·埃佩尔：你永远不知道。

Andrew Huberman: Well, yeah, zero minus one probability in my mind, but anyway, maybe other people have other ideas for me, but zero minus one probability in my mind.

Andrew Huberman：嗯，是的，我心中有零减一的概率，但无论如何，也许其他人对我有其他想法，但我心中有零负一的概率。

And yet I'm very interested in this mindfulness intervention because it sounds like a very potent one, so much so that it's having a multigenerational impact.

然而，我对这种正念干预非常感兴趣，因为它听起来是一种非常有效的干预，以至于它对多代人产生了影响。

So how many minutes a day?

那么每天多少分钟呢？

How many days per week?

每周有几天？

Elissa Epel: They met once a week.

Elissa Epel：他们每周见一次面。

They had little reminder cards.

他们有小提醒卡。

I mean, we need all the reminders we can post-its on the fridge, timers in our phone to do this mindful check in.

我的意思是，我们需要所有可以贴在冰箱上的提醒、手机上的计时器来进行这种细心的登记。

And so they were, during the week doing this check in, and it was simply a mindful check in, closing their eyes and feeling their body, feeling their labeling their emotions.

因此，他们在一周内进行了这种检查，这只是一次用心的检查，闭上眼睛，感受他们的身体，感受他们标记自己的情绪。

So it was mindful breathing, and then it was some movement, and we taught them prenatal yoga.

所以这是正念呼吸，然后是一些运动，我们教他们产前瑜伽。

But really, any mind body movement, people like different things.

但实际上，任何身心运动，人们喜欢的东西都是不同的。

There's qigong, there's even just slow walking would have worked.

有气功，就是慢走也行。

So it was mindful check in.

所以入住时很用心。

Breathe, move my body.

呼吸，移动我的身体。

That's what the reminder card said.

提醒卡上是这么说的。

So close your eyes and look inside.

所以闭上眼睛看看里面。

Do slow breathing.

做缓慢的呼吸。

They also put their hands on their belly, and so they felt that they were taking care of their baby, and then more movement.

他们还把手放在肚子上，这样他们就觉得自己在照顾宝宝，然后就多运动了。

So they did increase their walking.

所以他们确实增加了步行量。

And the mindful check ins are, as we were talking about at the very beginning, I would say necessary, but not sufficient.

正如我们一开始所讨论的那样，我认为用心检查是必要的，但还不够。

We've got to stop during the day and check in and look inside.

我们必须在白天停下来检查并看看里面。

If we're not aware of where our mind is, we are just subject to believing the stressful thoughts, thinking that we need to keep ruminating.

如果我们不知道自己的思想在哪里，我们就会容易相信那些有压力的想法，认为我们需要不断反思。

They're sticky thoughts.

它们是粘性的想法。

So the mindful check in is really important.

因此，细心的检查非常重要。

And then I think the breathing, as we've talked about, is probably the more direct way that they're influencing the prenatal environment, the uterine environment, to reduce the stress that the baby's being exposed to.

然后我认为，正如我们所讨论的，呼吸可能是他们影响产前环境、子宫环境的更直接方式，以减少婴儿所承受的压力。

And the movement refocuses us from our mind and our ruminative thoughts to the experiences, to what we feel in the body.

这个运动将我们的注意力从我们的思想和沉思的想法重新集中到经验和我们身体的感受上。

There's even been a study that showed that overweight people with a lot of cravings, if they do the body scan, that's simply focusing on the body from the head to the toe.

甚至有一项研究表明，超重的人有很多渴望，如果他们进行身体扫描，那就只是关注从头到脚的身体。

We're just reminding ourselves to focus on each part of the body, breathe into it, release tension.

我们只是提醒自己关注身体的每个部位，吸气，释放紧张。

It's very basic and simple.

这是非常基本和简单的。

The body scan significantly reduced cravings.

身体扫描显着减少了食欲。

I mean, to me, that's really hard to reduce cravings.

我的意思是，对我来说，减少渴望真的很难。

So, like, just that refocusing on the body took away stress, anxiety, self referential thoughts, that kind of our favorite topic.

所以，就像，重新关注身体就能消除压力、焦虑、自我参照的想法，这些都是我们最喜欢的话题。

Thinking about ourself, thinking negative thoughts about ourself, to relaxing, feeling, ease, feeling well being.

思考我们自己，思考关于我们自己的消极想法，放松、感觉、轻松、感觉幸福。

Andrew Huberman: I can't help but ask about what that body skin might have been doing at a little bit more of a mechanistic level.

Andrew Huberman：我忍不住要问，身体皮肤在机械层面上可能做了什么。

Some of the listeners might be familiar with these terms, but some won't.

有些听众可能熟悉这些术语，但有些则不熟悉。

So I'll just briefly define them.

所以我将简单地定义它们。

We can perceive things in terms of exteroception or basically paying attention to and focusing on things beyond the confines of our skin or interoception.

我们可以通过外感受来感知事物，或者基本上关注并聚焦于我们皮肤或内感受范围之外的事物。

I realize you know all this, but for their sake.

我知道你知道这一切，但都是为了他们。

Elissa Epel: No one really understands interoception go for it.

Elissa Epel：没有人真正理解内感受，去尝试吧。

Elissa Epel : Andrew Huberman: So an interoception, essentially the sensory innervation of the internal organs of our own skin, that includes proprioception, which is our knowledge or our sense of where our limbs are, where we are relative to gravity, all that stuff.

艾丽莎·埃佩尔：安德鲁·休伯曼：所以，内感受，本质上是我们自己皮肤内部器官的感觉神经支配，包括本体感觉，这是我们对四肢在哪里的知识或感觉，我们相对于重力的位置，所有这些东西。

And it raises this body scan result.

它提高了身体扫描结果。

That is, the fact that brief body scan can reduce cravings raises this question in my mind, which is, is craving a heightened sense of interoception or heightened sense of exteroception?

也就是说，简短的身体扫描可以减少渴望的事实在我的脑海中提出了这个问题，即渴望是增强的内感受还是增强的外感受？

So I could think of one form of craving where, for instance, the donut, again, donuts for me, is in front of me, and I'm thinking that I want that.

所以我可以想到一种形式的渴望，例如，甜甜圈，对我来说，甜甜圈就在我面前，我想我想要它。

And so I'm almost in complete exteroception, but I'm tethered to it, like my internal world is tethered to the donut.

所以我几乎完全处于外感状态，但我被它束缚住了，就像我的内心世界被束缚在甜甜圈上一样。

Elissa Epel : It's almost like the donut is in control of me briefly, and then I eat it.

Elissa Epel：这几乎就像甜甜圈短暂地控制了我，然后我就把它吃了。

Elissa Epel: It hijacks your prefrontal cortex.

Elissa Epel：它劫持了你的前额皮质。

Andrew Huberman: It's hijacked everything.

Andrew Huberman：它劫持了一切。

Yeah.

是的。

And then if I do a body scan.

然后如果我做身体扫描。

So I'm putting myself in this experiment in a kind of hypothetical scenario, I'm putting myself into this experiment.

所以我将自己置于一种假设场景中的实验中，我将自己置于该实验中。

I do a body scan, which without question, is shifting me more towards interoception, right?

我做了身体扫描，毫无疑问，这让我更倾向于内感受，对吧？

I'm focusing on my skin, my heart rate, all these things, interoception.

我专注于我的皮肤，我的心率，所有这些东西，内感受。

So I could see how that would draw my attention off of the external stimulus and reduce craving.

所以我可以看到这将如何将我的注意力从外部刺激上转移并减少渴望。

And that makes me wonder whether or not craving is a form of exteroception, where our interoception is just exquisitely locked to exteroception.

这让我想知道渴望是否是外感受的一种形式，我们的内感受恰好与外感受紧密相连。

And if so, because I do think this is a remarkable result, it is very hard to stop cravings.

如果是这样，因为我确实认为这是一个了不起的结果，所以很难停止渴望。

I mean, we had a guest on here, a former colleague of mine at Stanford, who's now the chair of neurosurgery at UPenn School of Medicine, which is Casey Halpern.

我的意思是，我们这里有一位客人，我在斯坦福大学的前同事，现任宾夕法尼亚大学医学院神经外科主任的凯西·哈尔彭 (Casey Halpern)。

I mean, they literally drill down through the skull of people who have binge eating disorder and start stimulating different brain areas because these people are so out of control in terms of their binge eating.

我的意思是，他们从字面上钻进患有暴食症的人的头骨并开始刺激不同的大脑区域，因为这些人的暴食行为是如此失控。

I mean, that's the kind of intervention that is considered necessary for a lot of folks who binge eat.

我的意思是，对于许多暴饮暴食的人来说，这种干预被认为是必要的。

So here you're telling me a body scan in some individuals can reduce that.

所以你在这里告诉我，对某些人进行身体扫描可以减少这种情况。

And I have to wonder whether or not it's somehow breaking that interoceptive, exteroception tether.

我想知道它是否以某种方式打破了内感受和外感受的束缚。

Anyway, I'm speculating here, but I'd love your thoughts on craving and binging and breaking binging.

无论如何，我在这里进行推测，但我很想听听你对渴望、暴饮暴食和打破暴饮暴食的想法。

Do you think that there are behavioral interventions that could be layered on top of body scans.

您认为在身体扫描的基础上还可以采取行为干预措施吗？

Should we all be doing body scans routinely?

我们都应该定期进行身体扫描吗？

Elissa Epel: Yes, why not?

艾丽莎·埃佩尔：是的，为什么不呢？

And some people aren't going to like that.

有些人不会喜欢这样。

Lying down is maybe not comfortable, and so any mind body activity is going to do the same.

躺着可能不太舒服，所以任何身心活动都会有同样的情况。

It's going to be, I think, breaking that link that you talked about.

我认为，这将打破你谈到的那个链接。

Andrew Huberman: Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。

I find this whole interoceptive exteroception balance thing one of the more interesting conversations these days in neuroscience, because we're finally starting to understand what some of the circuitries are, and they do link to these reward pathways.

我发现整个内感受外感受平衡问题是当今神经科学中最有趣的对话之一，因为我们终于开始了解一些电路是什么，并且它们确实与这些奖励途径相关。

In any event, getting back to the relationship between stress and food and maybe even just weaving back a little bit to the opioid system.

无论如何，回到压力和食物之间的关系，甚至可能只是稍微回到阿片类药物系统。

Have there been any long term studies of stress intervention?

有没有关于压力干预的长期研究？

In the studies that we do in our laboratory, we get people for a month.

在我们实验室进行的研究中，我们让人们进行一个月的研究。

They do one intervention, we swap them to another intervention and get a month.

他们进行一项干预，我们将他们换成另一项干预，并获得一个月的时间。

We analyze data.

我们分析数据。

Takes a couple of years to do all that, but we write papers and we move on.

完成这一切需要几年的时间，但我们写完论文然后继续前进。

Sounds like your laboratory has been involved in doing a lot of studies where you're examining people over a very long period of time, even their children.

听起来你们的实验室已经参与了很多研究，在很长一段时间内对人们进行检查，甚至是他们的孩子。

What can we learn about the long term outcomes of things like body scans, meditation, and then we'll get into breath work.

我们可以从身体扫描、冥想等长期结果中了解到什么，然后我们将开始呼吸工作。

Elissa Epel: There haven't been that many long term studies of stress interventions.

Elissa Epel：目前还没有太多关于压力干预的长期研究。

Now that you mention it, I think the meditation studies are probably the best example.

既然你提到了这一点，我认为冥想研究可能是最好的例子。

There are some studies that have either followed people who have taken up meditation or just these cross sectional studies where you compare a long term meditator to someone who's never meditated, and they are interesting.

有一些研究要么跟踪那些开始冥想的人，要么只是这些横断面研究，将长期冥想者与从未冥想过的人进行比较，它们很有趣。

I mean, let's talk about the cross sectional studies.

我的意思是，让我们谈谈横断面研究。

You're already studying someone who eats like, kale chips instead of potato chips.

你已经在研究一个吃羽衣甘蓝片而不是薯片的人。

So there's a lot of differences in who decides to be a meditator.

因此，决定成为冥想者的人有很多差异。

In terms of the health and biology, we have found that there is slower biological aging, and other people have found that in these meditation interventions, we do the short term ones, the inflammatory pathways of gene expression are dampened way down.

在健康和生物学方面，我们发现生物衰老速度较慢，其他人也发现，在这些冥想干预中，我们进行短期干预，基因表达的炎症途径被大大抑制。

And cross sectionally, other people like Elizabeth Hoge, have found longer telomeres in the meditators versus the controls.

从横截面来看，伊丽莎白·霍格等其他人发现冥想者的端粒比对照组更长。

So we haven't really found telomere lengthening in our short term meditation studies, but we do find boosts in telomerase activity, which is this enzyme that protects our cell aging, slows our cell aging, rebuilds the telomeres.

因此，在短期冥想研究中，我们并没有真正发现端粒延长，但我们确实发现端粒酶活性增强，这种酶可以保护我们的细胞衰老，减缓细胞衰老，重建端粒。

So those are studies that suggest if someone were to continue meditating, they might keep up that slower rate of aging.

这些研究表明，如果有人继续冥想，他们可能会保持较慢的衰老速度。

So there's one study we did which I think was particularly fun.

我们做了一项我认为特别有趣的研究。

We went to retreat center where Deepak Chopra leads this one week transcendental meditation retreat.

我们去了静修中心，迪帕克·乔普拉 (Deepak Chopra) 在那里主持了为期一周的超然冥想静修。

So people got a mantra, and they were focusing for probably 8 hours a day on different yoga, meditation, and reflective exercises.

所以人们得到了一个咒语，他们每天大约花 8 个小时专注于不同的瑜伽、冥想和反思练习。

And then we had half the group just walk around the resort, take walks, hear some boring health talks.

然后我们有一半的人在度假村周围散步，散步，听一些无聊的健康讲座。

So that was our control group.

这就是我们的对照组。

And what we found from the study was that in the short run a week later, everyone felt fantastic after the week.They weren't allowed to bring their laptop and work, and they ate this great anti inflammatory diet, an ayurvedic diet, and then the gene expression pathways were like night and day from day one to the last day.

我们从研究中发现，在一周后的短期内，每个人都感觉棒极了。他们不被允许带笔记本电脑去工作，他们吃了这种很棒的抗炎饮食，阿育吠陀饮食，然后基因表达途径从第一天到最后一天就像白天和黑夜一样。

And our model of machine learning model was able to identify people over 90%, it could say whether they were on day one or day seven.

我们的机器学习模型能够识别超过 90% 的人，可以识别他们是第一天还是第七天。

And the difference really emerged over the long run.

从长远来看，差异确实显现出来。

We went and we followed them about ten months later, and we found that not everyone felt great.

大约十个月后，我们去了并跟踪他们，发现并不是每个人都感觉很好。

Ten months later, the group who learned meditation still had lower depression, but the control group bounced right back up.

十个月后，学习冥想的小组的抑郁症仍然较低，但对照组的抑郁症却迅速反弹。

And then we looked a little bit further and we saw that people with early adversity benefited the most from the meditation condition.

然后我们看得更远一点，我们发现早期经历逆境的人从冥想条件中受益最多。

Andrew Huberman: What was the meditation condition?

Andrew Huberman：冥想的条件是什么？

How long per day?

每天多长时间？

Elissa Epel: Yeah, well, so they learned transcendental, primordial sound meditation, which is similar to TM, where you're focused attention on a word over and over, but there's also more awareness of the body.

Elissa Epel：是的，嗯，所以他们学习了超验的、原始的声音冥想，这与 TM 类似，你一遍又一遍地将注意力集中在一个词上，但也有更多的身体意识。

And that was, I couldn't say how many minutes a day, but it was on and off during the day.

那就是，我不能说一天有多少分钟，但它在白天时断时续。

Andrew Huberman: Okay, so repeatedly, but for a fairly short period of time.

Andrew Huberman：好的，如此反复，但时间相当短。

One week?

一周？

Elissa Epel: Yeah.

艾丽莎·埃佩尔：是的。

Right.

正确的。

Andrew Huberman: Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。

I've never done one of these extended meditation retreats.

我从来没有做过任何一次这样的长时间冥想静修。

Elissa Epel: Are you interested?

艾丽莎·埃佩尔：你有兴趣吗？

Andrew Huberman: Well, various people in my life have told me that I needed to go do a silent meditation, but they probably were emphasizing the silent part.

安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯，我生活中的很多人都告诉我，我需要进行静默冥想，但他们可能强调的是静默部分。

Elissa Epel: I recommend them.

艾丽莎·埃佩尔：我推荐他们。

I think they're amazing ways to get to know the mind and to really calm the body in ways like a quantum shift in our level of stress that we don't get.

我认为它们是了解心灵并真正平静身体的奇妙方法，就像我们无法感受到的压力水平的量子转变一样。

It's very hard to get in short belts.

穿短腰带是非常困难的。

Andrew Huberman: I do a daily meditation practice, but it's a relatively brief meditation practice.

Andrew Huberman：我每天都会进行冥想练习，但这是一个相对简短的冥想练习。

I do tend to focus more on things like deliberate cold exposure and breath work and exercise and sunlight and all the things I talk about on the podcast, but I'm certainly not averse to doing a longer meditation.

我确实倾向于更多地关注诸如刻意的寒冷暴露、呼吸工作、锻炼和阳光以及我在播客上谈论的所有事情，但我当然不反对进行更长时间的冥想。

Are all of these TM meditations?

这些都是TM冥想吗？

Are they silent meditations?

它们是静默的冥想吗？

And they range from, what, two days to a week?

范围从两天到一周不等？

Is that--

那是不是——

Elissa Epel: Well, the retreats, you can always find a retreat that's half a day, one day a week, two weeks.

Elissa Epel：嗯，静修，你总能找到半天、每周一天、两周的静修。

So you don't go right into a two week, you work up to it.

所以你不要直接进入两周，而是要努力做到这一点。

So the longest I've ever done is a two week silent meditation retreat.

所以我做过的最长的一次是两周的静默冥想静修。

And that was after ten years of doing yearly shorter retreats.

那是在每年进行较短的闭关十年之后。

And then when you.

然后当你。

I think it would be too hard and stressful if you haven't been able to.

我认为如果你做不到的话，那就太难了，压力也太大了。

I mean, meditation can be stressful if you think that you're failing at it.

我的意思是，如果你认为自己失败了，冥想可能会给你带来压力。

You need to have kind of developed the skill a little bit before you go on the retreats.

在参加静修之前，你需要稍微发展一下这项技能。

And so lots of classes can do that in online.

所以很多课程都可以在网上做到这一点。

But I think the short bouts every day, that is what is the most important message for people for managing daily stress.

但我认为每天的短暂锻炼对于人们管理日常压力来说是最重要的信息。

And that's in The Stress Prescription.

这就是《压力处方》中的内容。

It's very much about how we can do short daily nudges to reduce our stress arousal.

这在很大程度上是关于我们如何每天进行短暂的推动来减少我们的压力唤醒。

So breathing is one of the best body based examples of getting right there, but there are other ways.

因此，呼吸是实现这一目标的最佳基于身体的例子之一，但还有其他方法。

So being in nature, that's a really strong stimulus, an environment that sends all sorts of safety signals to us.

因此，在大自然中，这是一个非常强烈的刺激，一个向我们发送各种安全信号的环境。

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, certainly it's not an either or, but it seems like nowadays a lot of the discussion that used to be had around meditation and its ability to evoke neuroplasticity and things of that sort has shifted over to an increased focus on psychedelics.

安德鲁·休伯曼：是的，当然这不是一个非此即彼的问题，但现在似乎很多过去围绕冥想及其唤起神经可塑性的能力和类似事物的讨论已经转向对迷幻药的更多关注。

This is a common theme on this podcast, but it just seems like in taking the pulse of social media and the landscape out there, there's so much excitement about psilocybin, both in microdose and macro dose and MDMA and some of the other trials that are out there, that many people are starting to forget the incredibly rich and vast literature supporting the use of even brief meditation practices for reshaping the mind.

这是这个播客的一个常见主题，但似乎在把握社交媒体和外部环境的脉搏时，裸盖菇素（无论是微剂量、大剂量、摇头丸还是其他一些试验）都令人兴奋，以至于许多人开始忘记那些极其丰富和庞大的文献，这些文献支持使用哪怕是简短的冥想练习来重塑心灵。

So I'm glad that we're talking about meditation.

所以我很高兴我们正在谈论冥想。

Elissa Epel: But I mean, even going into plant medicine experiences is enhanced if you have a little bit of training in metacognition, how to view the mind and thoughts, you can observe the whole experience with that much more kind of calmness, skill and wisdom.

艾丽莎·埃佩尔：但我的意思是，如果你接受过一些元认知、如何看待思想和思想的训练，即使进入植物医学体验也会得到增强，你可以以更加冷静、技巧和智慧的方式观察整个体验。

Knowing this is just the mind doing these cool things so they're not separate.

知道这只是头脑在做这些很酷的事情，所以它们不是分开的。

And then I think the psilocybin experiences enhance daily meditation, so they really go well together.

然后我认为裸盖菇素的体验可以增强日常冥想，所以它们真的很相配。

Andrew Huberman: Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。

And just as a little editorial on psychedelics, what's interesting, I think about the clinical data, is that we think of the psychedelic journey as the time in which all the changes occur, because it has all these properties of hallucinations and altered thinking, etc, that acts as kind of a gravitational pull around our ideas about what psychedelics do.

就像关于迷幻药的一点社论一样，我认为临床数据的有趣之处在于，我们认为迷幻之旅是所有变化发生的时间，因为它具有幻觉和思维改变等所有这些特性，这就像一种引力，围绕着我们对迷幻药作用的想法。

But it's actually in the window after the psychedelic journey that the actual rewiring of the brain takes place.

但实际上，在迷幻之旅结束后，大脑才真正进行了重新布线。

So when people talk about integration afterwards, they're not just talking about the few hours where they're parachuting back down to typical consciousness, let's call it that, but that there's these long, perhaps even weeks or month long tail of plasticity.

因此，当人们在事后谈论整合时，他们不仅仅是在谈论他们空降到典型意识的几个小时，让我们这么称呼它，而是有这些长的、甚至可能是几周或一个月的可塑性尾巴。

And that's actually when most of the rewiring is happening, which I find really interesting, which is not unlike meditation, where, sure, in one bout of meditation, you might see an adjustment or rewiring of the brain, but at least from the book Altered Traits, which I'm a big fan of, talked about these daily, repeated short meditations, or these longer TM retreats, as they're sometimes called in, inducing this big time brain plasticity.

事实上，大部分的重新布线正在发生，我觉得这非常有趣，这与冥想没有什么不同，当然，在一轮冥想中，你可能会看到大脑的调整或重新布线，但至少从我非常喜欢的《改变的特质》一书中谈到了这些日常的、重复的短暂冥想，或者这些有时被称为较长时间的TM静修，引发了这次重要的大脑可塑性。

All right, well, now I'm going to have to do it, and I'll report back to everybody what my experience was, although I might do it silently.

好吧，好吧，现在我必须这么做了，我会向大家报告我的经历，尽管我可能会默默地做。

I'd love to talk a little bit about some of the other health metrics that you've explored, not just in the context of mindfulness, but I'm particularly intrigued by a graph here.

我很想谈谈您探索过的其他一些健康指标，不仅仅是在正念的背景下，但我对这里的图表特别感兴趣。

I'm showing my really nerdy side.

我正在展示我真正书呆子的一面。

There's a graph in one of your papers.

你的一篇论文中有一张图表。

It's the Picard paper, 2018.

这是皮卡德论文，2018 年。

We will provide a link to this in the show.

我们将在节目中提供此内容的链接。

Note captions if people want to take a look, but it essentially describes the relationship between mitochondrial health and mood in the context of people who have different type of mood tendencies.

如果人们想看的话请注意说明文字，但它本质上描述了在具有不同类型情绪倾向的人的背景下线粒体健康与情绪之间的关系。

If you would be willing to just kind of describe the top contour of that study and some of the points that you find most interesting, I think it's a fascinating study, and I'm so glad you did it, but I'll let you tell us about it.

如果您愿意描述该研究的总体轮廓以及您认为最有趣的一些要点，我认为这是一项令人着迷的研究，我很高兴您做到了，但我会让您告诉我们。

Elissa Epel: Yeah, we've done these in depth studies where we are looking at people under a lot of daily demand caregivers.

Elissa Epel：是的，我们已经做了这些深入的研究，我们正在研究那些需要大量日常护理的人。

And then we look at normal people, parents of neurotypical children who still have a lot of stress.

然后我们看看正常人，神经质孩子的父母，他们仍然承受着很大的压力。

But we then ask, do people under chronic stress have accelerated aging?

但我们接着问，长期承受压力的人会加速衰老吗？

So we look at telomeres, epigenetics, mitochondrial health, and then what explains those who look really good, who look resilient and don't look vulnerable?

因此，我们关注端粒、表观遗传学、线粒体健康，然后如何解释那些看起来非常好、看起来有弹性并且看起来并不脆弱的人？

And so then we can find out what's the magic sauce in the day that protects them from chronic stress.

这样我们就可以找出一天中保护他们免受慢性压力的神奇方法。

So Martin Picard, my colleague who has been obsessed with mitochondrial health as a pathway to understanding both stress and really, health and disease, he has developed a way to measure mitochondrial health in humans.

因此，我的同事马丁·皮卡德（Martin Picard）一直痴迷于将线粒体健康作为理解压力以及真正的健康和疾病的途径，他开发了一种测量人类线粒体健康的方法。

So we can measure a bunch of enzymes, and then we can adjust it for how many mitochondria we have.

所以我们可以测量一堆酶，然后我们可以根据我们拥有的线粒体数量来调整它。

So we have this really nice index we can get from the blood.

所以我们可以从血液中获得这个非常好的指数。

And in this study of young mothers who had either typical children or children with autism, we found that the caregiving moms had significantly lower or dampened mitochondrial activity.

在这项针对有典型孩子或患有自闭症孩子的年轻母亲的研究中，我们发现照顾孩子的母亲的线粒体活性显着降低或减弱。

What that means is they can't produce as much energy.

这意味着它们无法产生那么多的能量。

So if they're feeling more exhausted from the chronic stress, we know a it was quite dramatic.

因此，如果他们因长期压力而感到更加疲惫，我们知道这是相当戏剧性的。

Martin commented, Some of those low levels even looked like people with some genetic reasons to have low mitochondrial activity.

马丁评论说，其中一些低水平甚至看起来像是由于某些遗传原因线粒体活性较低的人。

But here's the beauty of that study.

但这就是这项研究的美妙之处。

We then get to look within their day at their mood and ask, well, what about the caregivers who have really great mitochondrial enzymes and thus should be making a lot of ATP?

然后我们会观察他们一天中的情绪，并问，那么，那些拥有非常好的线粒体酶并因此应该产生大量 ATP 的护理人员呢？

They had more positive emotions, both waking up and in the evening, but especially in the evening.

无论是早上还是晚上，他们都有更积极的情绪，但尤其是在晚上。

And what's so interesting that is all of these daily diary studies of stress and mood.

有趣的是所有这些关于压力和情绪的日常日记研究。

One of the things we know that matters for long term health is how positive you feel at night, especially on a stressful day.

我们知道，对长期健康至关重要的一件事是您在晚上的积极情绪，尤其是在充满压力的一天。

So at the end of a stressful day, can you muster some feelings of content, ease, confidence, joy?

那么，在紧张的一天结束时，您能唤起一些满足、轻松、自信、快乐的感觉吗？

Do you have any of that or has it just wiped out your positivity?

你有这样的经历吗？还是它已经抹去了你的积极性？

And so for people who feel either lower negative or higher positive, they tend to have better health trajectories.

因此，对于那些感觉较低消极或较高积极的人来说，他们往往有更好的健康轨迹。

So like a decade later, less depression, less heart disease, less early death.

十年后，抑郁症、心脏病、早逝都会减少。

So that's why we care so much about daily moods.

这就是为什么我们如此关心日常情绪。

And in our study, it looked like the daily mood was really quite correlated with the mitochondrial levels that same day.

在我们的研究中，看起来日常情绪确实与当天的线粒体水平非常相关。

Then we measured mood like days away from that and it was much less correlated.

然后我们测量了距离那几天的情绪，结果相关性要小得多。

So it's just our first study on this, but it really leads us to think that our mitochondria are sensitive to our thoughts and our feelings, probably on a daily basis.

所以这只是我们对此的第一次研究，但它确实让我们认为我们的线粒体对我们的想法和感受很敏感，可能每天都很敏感。

Andrew Huberman: Incredible.

安德鲁·休伯曼：难以置信。

So for those of us that find ourselves in a state of chronic stress, and here I'm talking about the kind of stress that you mentioned before, which is there is unlikely to be a simple solution, like we're just going to be grappling with this thing.

因此，对于我们这些发现自己处于慢性压力状态的人来说，在这里我谈论的是您之前提到的那种压力，这不太可能有一个简单的解决方案，就像我们将要努力解决这个问题一样。

And you mentioned the words radical acceptance, which I'd like to drill into a little bit too, because this is a theme in the self help literature and it's a theme now, I think, in the formal psychology literature.

你提到了“彻底接受”这个词，我也想深入探讨一下，因为这是自助文学中的一个主题，我认为，现在也是正式心理学文献中的一个主题。

I actually was talking to a dialectical psychology expert recently.

我最近实际上正在和一位辩证心理学专家交谈。

I think that's the correct title?

我认为这是正确的标题？

Elissa Epel: Dialectical Behavioral Therapy?

艾丽莎·埃佩尔：辩证行为疗法？

Andrew Huberman: Correct.

安德鲁·休伯曼：正确。

Yeah.

是的。

Thank you.

谢谢。

Elissa Epel: That's a common great one.

Elissa Epel：这是一个常见的伟大的。

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, you're correct.

安德鲁·休伯曼：是的，你是对的。

I was grasping and that's correct.

我正在抓住，这是正确的。

And they were talking about some of the misconceptions about radical acceptance, because I think a lot of people hear the words radical acceptance, at least is what they told me and think, oh, that means that you have to just accept what is and deal with it.

他们正在谈论一些关于激进接受的误解，因为我认为很多人听到激进接受这个词，至少是他们告诉我的，并认为，哦，这意味着你必须接受现状并处理它。

There's another form of radical acceptance, which is, I radically accept the fact that I'm not going to deal with this, right.

还有另一种形式的彻底接受，也就是说，我彻底接受我不会处理这个问题的事实，对吧。

I'm going to walk away from it.

我要远离它。

But what you're talking about is chronic stress of the sort that really the stressor, the fact that a very close relative or family member is dealing with a lifelong condition, or the fact that we can't extract ourselves from a situation that we are not in full agency to remove the stressor.

但你所说的是慢性压力，这种压力才是真正的压力源，一个非常亲密的亲戚或家庭成员正在应对终生的状况，或者我们无法摆脱我们无法完全消除压力源的情况。

That radical acceptance of that fact then can ratchet into an understanding of, okay.

对这一事实的彻底接受可以逐渐加深对“好吧”的理解。

And yet there are tools that we can use to not just offset the negative health effects, but maybe even thrive in the context of this, essentially turning what initially was thought of as a curse into a blessing, at least biologically speaking.

然而，我们可以使用一些工具，不仅可以抵消对健康的负面影响，甚至可以在这种情况下蓬勃发展，从本质上将最初被认为是诅咒的东西变成祝福，至少从生物学角度来说是这样。

What are the data around the practices that can help make that conversion possible?

有哪些实践数据可以帮助实现这种转变？

I realize there's a lot of psychological work that needs to be done.

我意识到有很多心理工作需要做。

Ongoing.

正在进行中。

People need coping mechanisms, support groups.

人们需要应对机制、支持团体。

Always better to have more social support than less, of course.

当然，拥有更多的社会支持总是比更少的社会支持更好。

But are we again talking about a daily mindfulness practice, or is it daily mindfulness of a certain type?

但我们是在谈论日常正念练习，还是某种类型的日常正念？

What do we know about best practices for mitigating these essentially non negotiable stressors?

对于缓解这些本质上不可协商的压力源的最佳实践，我们了解多少？

Elissa Epel: It's a great question and it's not a quick answer.

Elissa Epel：这是一个很好的问题，但不是一个快速的答案。

I think it is partly how we view life and our purpose in our own life.

我认为这在一定程度上是我们如何看待生活以及我们生活的目的的。

What's this game that we were born into?

我们出生的这个游戏是什么？

And even just the idea that bad things shouldn't happen sets us up for vulnerability, to feel victimized, to feel like we can't accept bad things that have happened.

即使只是“坏事不应该发生”的想法也会让我们变得脆弱，感到受害，感觉我们无法接受已经发生的坏事。

Just stepping back and asking everyone listening, do you have a situation in your life that is unwanted and you can't change?

退后一步，问问在场的每个人，你的生活中是否存在不受欢迎且无法改变的情况？

It could be small, it could be huge.

它可能很小，也可能很大。

How much time do you spend thinking about this?

你花了多少时间思考这个问题？

The more we spend time trying to problem solve or worry or just wishing things were different, the more we are creating a chronic stress state.

我们花越多时间尝试解决问题、担心或只是希望事情有所不同，我们就越会造成慢性压力状态。

And so just even taking that first kind of step back to get perspective on what are the situations in my life that stress me out?

那么，哪怕只是退后一步，看看生活中哪些情况给我带来了压力呢？

And which of these can I circle those that I can't change?

我可以圈出哪些是我无法改变的？

They're on my list, so they're on my mind.

他们在我的名单上，所以他们在我的脑海里。

They're still upsetting.

他们仍然心烦意乱。

They haven't receded in the background, they haven't gone away.

他们并没有在背景中退去，他们并没有消失。

Just that recognition of this isn't going to go away is incredibly powerful because we can, as I say, put the baggage down and give ourselves some relief and some freedom from the big space it holds in our mind and in our body.

认识到这一点不会消失，这是非常强大的，因为正如我所说，我们可以放下包袱，给自己一些缓解和自由，摆脱它在我们的思想和身体中占据的巨大空间。

And this is not a one time thing, it's a practice.

这不是一次性的事情，而是一种实践。

Radical acceptance is something we practice over and over to help us loosen our grip on unwanted situations, on letting them control our well being and taking up this mental real estate that's so precious our attention.

彻底的接受是我们一遍又一遍地练习的东西，它可以帮助我们放松对不想要的情况的控制，让它们控制我们的健康，并占据我们如此宝贵的注意力的心理空间。

So there are statements that we can say that help us, and there are a few metaphors.

因此，我们可以说一些对我们有帮助的陈述，还有一些隐喻。

So I'm an expert at this because I'm a caregiver and I often need to refocus from wishing things were different, trying to solve things, to really radical acceptance of this is how things are right now, this is the reality.

所以我是这方面的专家，因为我是一名看护者，我经常需要重新集中注意力，从希望事情有所不同，试图解决问题，到真正彻底接受现在的情况，这就是现实。

And by just reminding ourselves that there is freedom within that, that there are things that you can do, you can actually live better, live well with these situations.

只要提醒自己，其中存在着自由，你可以做一些事情，你实际上可以生活得更好，在这些情况下生活得很好。

So let me tell you what we found from our caregivers.

让我告诉您我们从护理人员那里发现了什么。

We measure where their mind is at night.

我们测量他们晚上的心思。

We ping them and we say in the last five minutes, how much have you been wishing things were different?

我们对他们进行 ping 操作，并在过去五分钟内说，您有多希望事情有所不同？

How much have you been engaged and focused in what you're doing right before we pinged you?

在我们联系您之前，您对正在做的事情有多少投入和专注？

And just those two questions tell us so much about that person's well being.

仅仅这两个问题就能告诉我们很多关于这个人的健康状况的信息。

And actually, yes, the caregivers are doing more of what i'll call suffering, wishing things were different, not being present for their lives.

事实上，是的，护理人员正在做更多我称之为痛苦的事情，希望事情有所不同，而不是在他们的生活中。

But regardless of that difference, whether people are a caregiver or not, this negative mind wandering state of not being present for your evening, wishing things were different instead of being engaged, predicts more unhappiness.

但不管这种差异如何，无论人们是否是看护者，这种消极的走神状态（晚上不在场、希望事情有所不同而不是投入其中）预示着更多的不快乐。

It predicts shorter telomeres.

它预测端粒较短。

So it suggests that it's a pattern that has gone on for days, months and years that has been wearing on them.

因此，这表明这种模式已经持续了数天、数月和数年，并一直在他们身上磨损。

And so some of the metaphors that I think are helpful for this are thinking of yourself.

因此，我认为对此有帮助的一些比喻是想想你自己。

Think of this unwanted situation and think of how you're pulling a rope that's attached to a brick wall, and you're doing that because you care.

想想这种不受欢迎的情况，想想你是如何拉动一根系在砖墙上的绳子的，你这样做是因为你在乎。

You want things to be better for yourself or this person or a group.

你希望自己、这个人或一个团体的事情变得更好。

I mean, it's something you're passionate about.

我的意思是，这是你热衷的事情。

And so you're pulling and pulling, and every day you're pulling and you can't move that brick wall.

所以你一直在拉啊拉，每天你都在拉，但你无法移动那堵砖墙。

So the only thing that's happening is that you're chafing your hands, that chronic tension.

所以唯一发生的事情就是你的手在摩擦，那种长期的紧张。

What if you just drop the rope?

如果你把绳子掉下来怎么办？

I say that to myself, drop the rope.

我对自己说，放下绳子。

When I start getting going on, trying to solve unsolvable problems.

当我开始继续前进时，尝试解决无法解决的问题。

The brick wall is still there.

砖墙还在那里。

It's never going to move.

它永远不会移动。

Yet my hands are free and so I can be freed up to live in the ways that I do have control over, to do things that help around the edges.

然而，我的双手是自由的，所以我可以自由地以我能控制的方式生活，做一些有帮助的事情。

So I was just talking with someone who's just so concerned about their aging parents and them not getting the care they need, not taking care of themselves.

所以我只是在和一个非常担心年迈父母的人交谈，他们担心他们得不到所需的照顾，无法照顾自己。

Things aren't going well, but there was so little that they could do to help their parents.

事情进展不顺利，但他们能帮父母做的却很少。

And so by dropping the rope for them meant realizing there were things they could do.

因此，为他们放下绳子意味着他们意识到他们可以做一些事情。

Being present, being loving, doing the little bit of care that they could from a distance was all they could do.

他们能做的就是在场、充满爱心、在远处做些许的关心。

And that's enough.

这就足够了。

That loving presence is like a gift that we don't realize that we always have that to give.

这种爱的存在就像一份礼物，我们没有意识到我们总是可以给予它。

Andrew Huberman: Where do you think the tendency for us to try and pull on brick walls comes from?

安德鲁·胡伯曼：你认为我们尝试拉砖墙的倾向从何而来？

I mean, it's so non adaptive.

我的意思是，它的适应性太差了。

And I've also heard it stated that people do this in the reverse direction too, meaning in time, trying to control the past through current behaviors as well as trying to control the future.

我还听说人们也在相反的方向上这样做，即及时地，试图通过当前的行为控制过去，也试图控制未来。

Elissa Epel: So give me an example of that.

Elissa Epel：请举个例子。

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, this is something I learned from a guest we had on here.

Andrew Huberman：是的，这是我从我们这里的一位客人那里了解到的。

Dr. Paul Conti is a psychiatrist, extremely skilled psychiatrist, who wrote a book on trauma, which I think is the best book on trauma, frankly.

保罗·孔蒂博士是一位精神病学家，非常熟练的精神病学家，他写了一本关于创伤的书，坦率地说，我认为这是关于创伤的最好的书。

And he talked about how the limbic system that engages these fight or flight responses has no sense of time.

他还谈到了参与这些战斗或逃跑反应的边缘系统如何没有时间感。

And that's why developmental scripts get reactivated.

这就是开发脚本被重新激活的原因。

In particular, parent child or caretaker child neural circuits that were engaged in those relationships when we were really young get reactivated in adult relationships.

特别是，当我们很小的时候参与这些关系的父母孩子或看护孩子的神经回路在成年关系中被重新激活。

I mean, in some sense it doesn't make any sense.

我的意思是，从某种意义上来说，这没有任何意义。

Like why wouldn't the human mind have separate circuits for adult, like romantic attachment versus child parent attachment?

就像为什么人类的大脑不会对成人有不同的回路，比如浪漫依恋与儿童父母依恋？

This is all sounding very Freudian, and yet when you look at the neuroimaging, it's like you get one set of circuits for understanding of relationship.

这一切听起来非常弗洛伊德式的，然而当你观察神经影像时，就像你得到了一组用于理解关系的回路。

Of course, you adjust according to context and they get repurposed.

当然，你可以根据情况进行调整，它们就会被重新调整用途。

You don't just set that aside, say that was for childhood.

你不能把它放在一边，说那是为了童年。

What he said was that the limbic system and the stress system when it's activated distorts our perception of time.

他说的是边缘系统和压力系统被激活时会扭曲我们对时间的感知。

And that this is what he was saying, leads to what's sometimes called the repetition compulsion.

这就是他所说的，导致了有时所谓的强迫性重复。

People try and will repeat the same place themselves into mildly to severely traumatic circumstances over and over again, despite the presence of a trauma.

尽管存在创伤，人们还是会一次又一次地尝试并将自己置于轻度至严重的创伤环境中。

It doesn't have to be childhood trauma.

它不一定是童年创伤。

You think, well, that doesn't make any sense.

你认为，好吧，这没有任何意义。

It's like the most illogical thing in the world.

这就像世界上最不合逻辑的事情。

You get burned on the stove, and you keep going back to the stove.

你在炉子上被烧伤，然后又不断地回到炉子边。

And the idea is that these circuits, when they get activated, really engage entire cognitive scripts that make it very hard to escape.

这个想法是，当这些回路被激活时，它们确实会参与整个认知脚本，使其很难逃脱。

It's like it pulls you into a story that is exquisitely hard to get away from.

就好像它把你带入一个难以摆脱的故事之中。

And so that this repetition compulsion is an attempt to try and rewrite the story.

因此，这种强迫性重复是一种尝试重写故事的尝试。

And this is a theory not just of Freudian psychology, but kind of modern trauma and neuroscience informed trauma therapies.

这不仅是弗洛伊德心理学的理论，也是现代创伤和神经科学的创伤治疗理论。

In any event, as you describe this pulling on a brick wall, I find it a very compelling image and one that makes total sense to try and drop the rope, as you describe it, because of the incredibly high energetic demand that pulling on that rope represents.

无论如何，当你描述拉动砖墙上的动作时，我发现这是一个非常引人注目的图像，并且正如你所描述的那样，尝试放下绳子是完全有意义的，因为拉动绳子代表了令人难以置信的高能量需求。

As you said, it's sort of a way of diverting resources towards something that has no conclusion.

正如你所说，这是一种将资源转移到没有结论的事情上的方式。

And in dropping the rope, you can divert those resources towards other things.

放下绳子后，你可以将这些资源转移到其他事情上。

So I was just curious.

所以我只是好奇。

Again, I wasn't consulted the design phase, and I'm assuming you weren't either.

再说一次，我没有在设计阶段咨询过，我猜你也没有咨询过。

But I wonder what in us as scientists, I'm just kind of doing the Gedankenexperiment here.

但我想知道作为科学家，我只是在这里做格丹肯实验。

I wonder what in us as human beings compels us to try and change what we, the unchangeable.

我想知道作为人类，我们身上有什么力量迫使我们去尝试改变那些我们无法改变的东西。

Elissa Epel: We really, really love control, and we want to control the future, not just because it makes us feel powerful and happy, but because then we can relax if we know what's going to happen next, if it's predictable, we're that much happier, we're not vigilant and looking ahead and being prepared for what might happen.

Elissa Epel：我们真的非常喜欢控制，我们想要控制未来，不仅因为它让我们感到强大和快乐，而且因为如果我们知道接下来会发生什么，我们就可以放松，如果它是可预测的，我们会更快乐，我们不会保持警惕，展望未来，为可能发生的事情做好准备。

So let me ask you that.

那么让我问你这个问题。

So I have two whole chapters in The Stress Prescription.

所以我在《压力处方》中有整整两章。

One is on uncertainty and one is on control.

一种是不确定性，一种是控制性。

And these drive us crazy until we can somewhat master and understand how little control we have and how much uncertainty there is and will always be.

这些让我们发疯，直到我们能够在一定程度上掌握和理解我们拥有的控制权是多么少，以及存在并将永远存在多少不确定性。

So let me ask you this.

那么让我问你这个问题。

If you couldn't plan your day tomorrow, and you wanted to know with certainty what your plans were, what was going to happen, how much ease and relaxation would you feel at the not knowing what's going to happen tomorrow?

如果你无法计划明天的一天，而你想确切地知道你的计划是什么，将会发生什么，那么当你不知道明天会发生什么时，你会感到多么轻松和放松？

Andrew Huberman: Very little.

安德鲁·休伯曼：很少。

Elissa Epel: So, like, on a one through ten scale, how much would that drive you crazy?

Elissa Epel：那么，从一到十的范围内，这会让你发疯多少？

Tomorrow?

明天？

Andrew Huberman: Saturday.

安德鲁·休伯曼：星期六。

So I'm a little more flexible.

所以我比较灵活一点。

Elissa Epel: Monday.

艾丽莎·埃佩尔：周一。

Andrew Huberman: Oh, no, Mondays are mine.

安德鲁·休伯曼：哦，不，星期一是我的。

I own Monday.

我拥有星期一。

Elissa Epel : No, I'm kidding.

艾丽莎·埃佩尔：不，我在开玩笑。

I'm just kidding.

我只是在开玩笑。

I love Mondays.

我喜欢星期一。

It's always been my favorite day of the week, even when I was in school.

这一直是我一周中最喜欢的一天，即使是在我上学的时候。

Yeah, that would be a six out of ten.

是的，十分之六。

Elissa Epel: And that's not unusual.

Elissa Epel：这并不罕见。

And we have a scale to measure how comfortable people are with certainty and what we already knew was that being comfortable with uncertainty is a beautiful but rare resilience factor.

我们有一个量表来衡量人们对确定性的适应程度，我们已经知道，对不确定性感到满意是一个美丽但罕见的弹性因素。

People who tolerate uncertainty have much less anxiety and depression.

能够容忍不确定性的人的焦虑和抑郁要少得多。

And when stressful things happen, they get over it more quickly.

当有压力的事情发生时，他们会更快地克服它。

So we measured this during the pandemic, and what we found was that intolerance of uncertainty pretty strongly predicted pandemic anxiety, PTSD, depression, and distress about the fires, the climate situation in California.

因此，我们在大流行期间对此进行了测量，我们发现，对不确定性的不容忍非常强烈地预测了大流行焦虑、创伤后应激障碍、抑郁以及对加州火灾和气候状况的痛苦。

So this is interesting.

所以这很有趣。

I mean, is this like a fixed personality and we're just stuck with our rigidity around wanting certainty?

我的意思是，这是否就像一种固定的个性，而我们只是陷入了对确定性的僵化之中？

Or is this something that, like a muscle that we can build?

或者这是我们可以锻炼的东西，就像肌肉一样？

So I think it's the latter.

所以我认为是后者。

And I think there are practices we can do that help us feel ease with the uncertain future.

我认为我们可以采取一些做法来帮助我们轻松应对不确定的未来。

Some of these mindful check ins, noticing that we are carrying around uncertainty stress is one way.

其中一些注意检查，注意到我们正在承受不确定性压力是一种方法。

And then reframing uncertainty as the beauty of the mystery of life and the freedom that we can feel when we realize we don't control tomorrow, we just go with it and we do our best.

然后将不确定性重新定义为生命的神秘之美，以及当我们意识到我们无法控制明天时我们可以感受到的自由，我们只是顺其自然并尽力而为。

And what delight there is in just viewing things with curiosity and just seeing what emerges.

带着好奇心观察事物并观察所发生的事情是多么令人高兴啊。

So even just our posture.

所以即使只是我们的姿势。

Well, here's an exercise for dealing with uncertainty.

嗯，这是一个处理不确定性的练习。

Instead of kind of that alert posture when we're trying to take it all in and predict the next second and just lean back and take some slow breaths, we know that's going to help orient us and realize that we can actually face time in that way by letting it come to us and receiving what happens.

当我们试图接受一切并预测下一秒，然后向后靠并缓慢呼吸时，我们知道这将帮助我们定位并意识到我们实际上可以通过让时间来到我们身边并接受所发生的事情来以这种方式面对时间，而不是那种警觉的姿势。

And that's a completely different body stance than our usual go mode during the day.

这是一种与我们白天通常的行走模式完全不同的身体姿势。

And that's just a way of saying I am in a receptive mode and I'm going to just be curious about what arises.

这只是表达我处于接受模式的一种方式，我只是对发生的事情感到好奇。

And so I actually learned that on a meditation retreat because I tend to be Type A, and I'll leave a retreat going from very relaxed to that leaning forward tense of where's the to do list?

所以我实际上在冥想静修中了解到了这一点，因为我倾向于 A 型，我会在静修中从非常放松到前倾紧张，问待办事项清单在哪里？

And so carrying with me that posture of, like, just see, let time unfold as it will without trying to control things.

所以我带着这样的态度，就像，只是看，让时间自然展开，而不是试图控制事物。

Andrew Huberman: It's really interesting.

安德鲁·休伯曼：这真的很有趣。

It gets right to the heart of something that I spent a lot of time thinking about in the context of stress management and also just general thriving, which is that I think that about half of the messages that we get relate to stress and mind body interventions relate to adopting this forward center of mass.

它直击我花了很多时间在压力管理和总体繁荣的背景下思考的核心问题，那就是我认为我们收到的有关压力和身心干预的信息中约有一半与采用这种前向质心有关。

This idea of, okay, stress can give us early dementia, stress can limit our sleep, stress can impair our cognition, or stress can make us more resilient.

这种想法是，好吧，压力会让我们早期痴呆，压力会限制我们的睡眠，压力会损害我们的认知，或者压力可以让我们更有弹性。

Stress can activate all sorts of positive anti inflammatory pathways as well, that the mindset matters and here.

压力也可以激活各种积极的抗炎途径，心态很重要，在这里。

I'm doing a terrible job of it, but I'm trying to scrape off and capture the top contour of the beautiful work of my colleague, Dr. Alia Crum.

我做得很糟糕，但我正在努力刮掉并捕捉我的同事阿莉亚·克拉姆博士美丽作品的顶部轮廓。

Elissa Epel: Love her work.

艾丽莎·埃佩尔：热爱她的工作。

Andrew Huberman: Who's been on this podcast, and is a huge fan of her work as well.

Andrew Huberman：谁参加过这个播客，并且也是她作品的忠实粉丝。

And that mindset matters because it shapes physiology for sure.

这种心态很重要，因为它肯定会塑造生理学。

Her data point to that.

她的数据表明了这一点。

So there are these kind of forward, center of mass type approaches, and these are abundant on social media.

因此，存在着这种向前的、群众中心类型的方法，这些方法在社交媒体上很丰富。

Different people come to mind, different archetypes really have emerged, millions and millions of followers that are the archetypes of when challenge arises, you smash into it, you go through it.

不同的人浮现在脑海中，不同的原型确实出现了，数以百万计的追随者是挑战出现时的原型，你冲向它，你经历它。

And then on the other hand, there are these stress mitigation techniques, both mental and physical, body oriented, mind oriented, etc, that are more of the sort that you described, that they're not being back on your heels, so to speak, like letting things bulldoze you.

另一方面，还有这些缓解压力的技巧，无论是精神上的还是身体上的，以身体为导向的，以思想为导向的，等等，它们更像是你所描述的那种，他们不会追随你，可以这么说，就像让事情推倒你一样。

But are more of this receptive mode and more of an awareness mode?

但更多的是这种接受模式和更多的意识模式吗？

Elissa Epel: Exactly.

艾丽莎·埃佩尔：没错。

Andrew Huberman: And I think that since here we are at the table to researchers who focus on these issues a lot, do you think it's fair for us to adopt a sort of a general framework and model that perhaps people can adopt for themselves if they like that?

安德鲁·休伯曼：我认为，既然我们在这里与经常关注这些问题的研究人员坐在一起，你认为我们采用一种人们可以自己采用的通用框架和模型是否公平？

Of course, it's not an either or, but that having both of these in one's kit of tools could be valuable because one is less energetically demanding, but, of course, offers less opportunity for agency, or at least apparently so that's the leaning back.

当然，这不是一个非此即彼的问题，而是将这两种工具都包含在一个人的工具箱中可能很有价值，因为一个人的精力要求较低，但当然，为代理提供的机会较少，或者至少显然是这样的。

And then the other certainly gives an opportunity for agency.

然后另一个肯定会提供代理机会。

But we know from 100 years or more of psychology and psychiatric literature and from the emerging literature on stress mitigation that it's work.

但我们从 100 多年的心理学和精神病学文献以及有关缓解压力的新兴文献中知道，它是有效的。

It's not something that is without a cost.

这不是没有成本的事情。

It can get you far better results than it were you to just let stress bulldoze you.

与让压力压倒你相比，它可以给你带来更好的结果。

But that it's work.

但这是工作。

And so we have to emphasize that work in very deliberate ways.

因此，我们必须强调以非常审慎的方式开展工作。

Elissa Epel: Exactly.

艾丽莎·埃佩尔：没错。

I couldn't agree more.

我完全同意。

It's work.

这是工作。

When we know it's productive, we should work.

当我们知道它富有成效时，我们就应该工作。

And when we know there's a brick wall, we should let go.

当我们知道有一堵砖墙时，我们就应该放手。

So I like this forward mass idea.

所以我喜欢这个前卫的大众想法。

I think of it as you muscle it and or you release it, and we need both.

我认为当你加强它或释放它时，我们两者都需要。

And so that letting go is a really important, wise, discerning way to mitigate stress in the right situations, in the right time.

因此，放手是一种非常重要、明智、有洞察力的方法，可以在正确的情况、正确的时间减轻压力。

And we can't muscle through everything.

我们无法强行解决所有问题。

So another way I like to think about it is just the waves of life.

所以我喜欢思考的另一种方式就是生命的波浪。

We are in an ocean, and we have small waves, we have big waves, some of these tidal waves are going to hit all of us, the global stressors, the climate disasters that will come.

我们身处海洋，有小浪，也有大浪，其中一些潮汐波将袭击我们所有人，全球压力源，即将到来的气候灾难。

And so when we're not in the middle of a wave, which is when we need to muscle it, we're between waves.

因此，当我们不在波浪中间时，即当我们需要增强力量时，我们就处于波浪之间。

How much control do we have to fight the tide there?

我们有多少控制权来对抗那里的浪潮？

Some.

一些。

It's not black or white.

它不是黑色或白色。

We can't fight a rip tide.

我们无法对抗激流。

We need to go the direction of the tide, but we can have some control in our direction.

我们需要顺着潮流的方向前进，但我们可以对自己的方向进行一些控制。

And it kind of goes back to our colleague Robert Sapolsky's very biologically based idea of us having, he's a little bit extreme with it, no free will.

这可以追溯到我们的同事罗伯特·萨波尔斯基（Robert Sapolsky）基于生物学的想法，他认为我们没有自由意志，他对此有点极端。

We are influenced by all of these things around us, as well as all of our biological, I'll say brilliant evolutionary animal instincts.

我们受到周围所有事物的影响，以及我们所有的生物本能，我想说的是出色的进化动物本能。

So, given all of that, we have some deterministic forces on us, and within that, we get to ease up between the waves.

因此，考虑到所有这些，我们有一些确定性的力量，在这种力量中，我们可以在波浪之间放松下来。

When we can, we get to change our direction, but we're always going to be hit by the next wave.

当我们可以的时候，我们可以改变方向，但我们总是会受到下一波浪潮的打击。

And so it's this skillful surfing or navigating that we can do better when we realize when we control things, when we can't, when we can truly feel safe and have ease, versus when we need to kind of gently paddle.

因此，当我们意识到什么时候我们可以控制事物，什么时候我们不能控制事物，什么时候我们可以真正感到安全和轻松，而不是当我们需要轻轻划桨时，我们就能在这种熟练的冲浪或导航中做得更好。

Andrew Huberman: What do you think is the value of journaling and placing one's own narrative on stressful circumstances, especially these non negotiable circumstances?

安德鲁·休伯曼：你认为在有压力的情况下，尤其是在这些不可协商的情况下写日记和讲述自己的故事有什么价值？

Again, I'm fascinated by these because I think it's a category of stress that's not often talked about and yet is so prominent.

再说一次，我对这些很着迷，因为我认为这是一种不常被谈论但又如此突出的压力类别。

Some people say, okay, dealing with short term stress.

有些人说，好吧，处理短期压力。

Okay, well, my lab would say, like, use physiological size or raise your stress threshold, and we'll get back to that in a little bit as it relates to the work you're doing with breath work.

好吧，我的实验室会说，比如，使用生理尺寸或提高你的压力阈值，我们稍后会回到这个问题，因为它与你正在做的呼吸工作有关。

But so many stressors are going to take a year, five years, we don't know the uncertainty that you mentioned earlier or the certainty that this is going to go on forever.

但如此多的压力源将需要一年、五年的时间，我们不知道你之前提到的不确定性或这种情况将永远持续下去的确定性。

And so for people that are listening to this and that want to start to adopt practices, do you think that spending some time creating a written or a spoken narrative is helpful?

因此，对于正在聆听此内容并想要开始采取实践的人来说，您认为花一些时间创建书面或口头叙述有帮助吗？

I mean, we hear this, but are there any data that support the use of journaling as a tool?

我的意思是，我们听到了这个，但是有没有任何数据支持使用日记作为工具？

I seem to recall that there are a few studies out there, but I can't remember exactly.

我好像记得有一些研究，但我记不太清了。

Elissa Epel: Yeah, definitely.

艾丽莎·埃佩尔：是的，当然。

Creating a coherent narrative is critical to our ability to make sense, find meaning, find resolution, have a social identity around our lived experience, what happens to us.

创造一个连贯的叙述对于我们理解、寻找意义、找到解决办法、围绕我们的生活经历和发生在我们身上的事情拥有社会认同的能力至关重要。

So narrative is kind of everything, right?

所以叙事就是一切，对吗？

In stress research, it's not what happens to us, it's how we're interpreting it and how we're responding to it.

在压力研究中，重要的不是发生在我们身上的事情，而是我们如何解释它以及我们如何应对它。

And I've heard you say the exact same thing when you've talked about what is stress, it's really what narrative we're creating around it.

当你谈论什么是压力时，我听到你说过完全相同的事情，这确实是我们围绕它创造的叙述。

So I think a narrative of purpose fill in the blank about what's meaningful to you.

所以我认为目的性叙述可以填补对你来说有意义的空白。

But that is why we're different than just the rats that we study or the monkeys.

但这就是为什么我们与我们研究的老鼠或猴子不同。

They have these amazing stress responses that we have them, too, and we can't control that.

他们有这些惊人的压力反应，我们也有，但我们无法控制。

But we have the ability to do this projection to the future, to ask, what is our purpose in life?

但我们有能力对未来进行预测，问问自己，我们人生的目的是什么？

To see and know that we are going to die, and we can have some control over how we live and maybe even how we die and how we want to be remembered.

看到并知道我们将要死亡，我们可以对我们的生活方式，甚至我们如何死亡以及我们希望如何被记住有一定的控制。

That is so beautiful.

那真是太美丽了。

That helps us rise above this being monkeys in clothes.

这有助于我们超越穿衣服的猴子。

Andrew Huberman: I'd love, before we wrap, for us to return to this question about breath work and the study that you're doing.

Andrew Huberman：在结束之前，我希望我们能回到关于呼吸工作和您正在进行的研究的问题。

I've known about your work for a very long time, admired it for a very long time.

我很早以前就知道你的作品，很欣赏它。

And one of the things that excited me about being able to sit down with you today is that our laboratories studied breath work.

今天能够坐下来和你们一起让我感到兴奋的事情之一是我们的实验室研究了呼吸工作。

Your laboratory is studying breath work.

你的实验室正在研究呼吸工作。

And I know that you've been doing a study on the so called Wim Hof Method, which I'll let you familiarize our listeners to.

我知道您一直在研究所谓的维姆霍夫方法，我会让您熟悉我们的听众。

Some of them are familiar with the Wim Hof Method, others are not.

他们中的一些人熟悉 Wim Hof 方法，另一些人则不熟悉。

I think a lot of people think of Wim in terms of his role as the Iceman because of cold exposure.

我想很多人都会因为暴露在寒冷中而想到维姆扮演的冰人角色。

But of course, he has breath work practices that mirror things like tumo breathing and other things.

当然，他的呼吸练习也与肿瘤呼吸等类似。

But maybe you could tell us a little bit about what you're doing there and what you're interested in discovering.

但也许你可以告诉我们一些你在那里做什么以及你有兴趣发现什么。

I realize it's too early to give us the results, but hopefully they'll come back and do that at another time.

我意识到现在给我们结果还为时过早，但希望他们能在其他时间回来做这件事。

But what is the study?

但研究的是什么？

What motivated the study?

这项研究的动机是什么？

And maybe I can convince you to give us a little teaser of what you're discovering.

也许我可以说服你给我们一些你所发现的预告片。

Elissa Epel: Elissa Epel : So for many years, I mean I think my first paper when I was a graduate student with Bruce McEwen was about this idea of positive physiological stress.

Elissa Epel：Elissa Epel：多年来，我的意思是，当我还是 Bruce McEwen 的研究生时，我的第一篇论文就是关于积极的生理压力的想法。

And so I've always been wanting to really understand what's positive stress?

所以我一直想真正了解什么是积极压力？

How can we induce it?

我们怎样才能诱导它呢？

And instead, for too many years, I've been studying the dark side, toxic stress, trauma, caregiving, and how that can take a toll on the body without the right resilience and resources.

相反，多年来，我一直在研究阴暗面、有毒压力、创伤、护理，以及如果没有适当的弹性和资源，这些会对身体造成怎样的损害。

And now I'm very excited about the opportunity to just focus on different ways that we can stress out our body and mind in short term bursts that might promote stress resilience.

现在我很兴奋有机会专注于不同的方式，我们可以在短期内释放我们的身心压力，从而提高抗压能力。

And the body based strategies are concrete.

基于身体的策略是具体的。

They're quick.

他们很快。

They're also my favorite strategies.

它们也是我最喜欢的策略。

I probably have internalized a lot of the mindsets and the things that I've learned from meditation.

我可能已经内化了很多心态以及我从冥想中学到的东西。

And what I feel the biggest bang for the buck is if I'm waking up, like, super jittery with a big stress response because of X or Y.

我觉得最划算的是，如果我醒来时，因为 X 或 Y 而感到超级紧张，并产生巨大的压力反应。

It is actually something like a HIIT type workout or taking the dogs for a really brisk walk or burning up.

它实际上类似于 HIIT 类型的锻炼，或者带狗进行真正的快走或燃烧。

That energy in my body is a very big effect size for me personally.

我体内的能量对我个人来说影响非常大。

Everyone has their different ways that they can see the biggest shifts in daily stress.

每个人都有不同的方式来看待日常压力的最大变化。

So I've been looking for ways to create positive stress besides exercise.

所以我一直在寻找除了运动之外创造积极压力的方法。

We all know about exercise, and I met Wim Hof at a meeting where we talked kind of back to back.

我们都知道锻炼，我在一次会议上认识了 Wim Hof，我们在会上进行了背靠背的交谈。

And so I had kind of heard something about crazy Iceman climbing up the Himalayas.

所以我听说过一些关于疯狂的冰人攀登喜马拉雅山的事情。

Andrew Huberman: He has 27 or more world records for that sort of thing.

Andrew Huberman：他在此类事情上拥有 27 项或更多世界纪录。

Elissa Epel: I got to do the breathing with him during this conference, and I just felt like elation afterward.

艾丽莎·埃佩尔（Elissa Epel）：在这次会议期间我必须和他一起呼吸，之后我感到很高兴。

I was like, what was that?

我当时想，那是什么？

And then he heard about telomeres, and he was like, I need to know if my method is affecting cell aging.

然后他听说了端粒，他说，我需要知道我的方法是否会影响细胞衰老。

He loves research, and so he helped us design a study that we've been working on at UCSF with my colleagues Wendy Mendes and Aric Prather.

他热爱研究，因此他帮助我们设计了一项研究，我们一直在加州大学旧金山分校与我的同事 Wendy Mendes 和 Aric Prather 一起进行这项研究。

It's been many years, and it's funded by the John W.

已经很多年了，它是由约翰·W·肯尼迪基金会资助的。

Brick Foundation, which is very focused on what are non drug ways that we can help mental health.

布里克基金会非常关注可以帮助心理健康的非药物方式。

So it was a very good fit for all of us to come together, design the study, and we have been basically comparing low arousal relaxation methods, mindfulness, slow breathing, to positive stress, exercise, and Wim Hof Method.

因此，我们所有人聚在一起设计这项研究非常适合，我们基本上将低唤醒放松方法、正念、缓慢呼吸、积极压力、锻炼和维姆霍夫方法进行了比较。

And one of the things that we've learned in a big way is that regardless of whether we're creating deep states of ease or hormetic stress in the body, that short term burst of either aerobic activity or the extreme breathing people feel better, period.

我们学到的重要一件事是，无论我们是在体内创造深度的放松状态还是毒物兴奋状态，短期爆发的有氧活动或极限呼吸都会让人感觉更好，就这样。

So three weeks later, after this experiment of doing their practice every day, they were either randomly assigned to the high arousal or the low arousal.

三周后，在每天进行练习的实验之后，他们被随机分配到高唤醒度或低唤醒度组。

The level of stress, anxiety, and depression fell dramatically in everyone.

每个人的压力、焦虑和抑郁程度都急剧下降。

So many paths to changes in stress.

改变压力的途径有很多。

There are probably very different physiological pathways, and we can talk about that more when we get to really look in depth at our physiological data as well as our blood based data.

可能存在非常不同的生理途径，当我们真正深入研究我们的生理数据以及基于血液的数据时，我们可以更多地讨论这一点。

But what we do know is that the Wim Hof Method did create daily positive emotion that increased over time, just like your study on sighing and so even though there were different mechanisms, they were selectively boosting feelings of positivity.

但我们所知道的是，维姆霍夫方法确实创造了日常积极情绪，并且随着时间的推移而增加，就像你对叹息的研究一样，所以即使有不同的机制，它们也有选择地增强积极情绪。

I love that.

我喜欢那个。

That's very unusual to get a very selective positive effect.

获得非常有选择性的积极效果是非常不寻常的。

Andrew Huberman: Super interesting.

安德鲁·休伯曼：超级有趣。

I can't wait to hear more about the data.

我迫不及待地想了解更多有关数据的信息。

So I gather, and by the way, no is a perfectly fine answer.

所以我想，顺便说一下，“不”是一个非常好的答案。

I gather that you're not going to tell us about whether or not there are telomere changes yet, or maybe that's not possible to detect in this kind of short term study.

我猜你不会告诉我们端粒是否发生变化，或者在这种短期研究中可能无法检测到端粒变化。

Elissa Epel: So what we are going to look at, we don't really think that telomeres can change very quickly and telomerase may, so we're going to look at mitochondrial enzymes, telomerase and gene expression patterns.

Elissa Epel：所以我们要研究的是，我们并不认为端粒可以很快改变，而端粒酶可以，所以我们将研究线粒体酶、端粒酶和基因表达模式。

And as you know, we can look at many different mechanisms and pathways with gene expression patterns, especially with these new kind of assays where you can look at 7000 different proteins like the somalogic.

如您所知，我们可以通过基因表达模式研究许多不同的机制和途径，特别是通过这些新型检测，您可以检测 7000 种不同的蛋白质，例如躯体学蛋白。

And so we'll get to see, well, what's the pattern?

所以我们会看到，嗯，模式是什么？

Did we really change patterns of acute stress with these different types of stress resilience interventions?

通过这些不同类型的抗压能力干预措施，我们真的改变了急性压力的模式吗？

And in terms of the physiological reactivity, there are ways that we can examine both the stress response system, the sympathetic nervous system and the parasympathetic response system.

在生理反应方面，我们可以通过多种方法来检查应激反应系统、交感神经系统和副交感神经系统。

And I will tell you that while we're still preparing the results, there were very different profiles from the different interventions that make us think that there's a lot of specificity.

我会告诉你，虽然我们仍在准备结果，但不同干预措施的情况非常不同，这让我们认为存在很多特殊性。

Even though everyone feels better the way that they got there is very different ways that we're impacting both the nervous system and the brain.

尽管每个人都感觉更好，但我们影响神经系统和大脑的方式却截然不同。

Andrew Huberman: Incredible.

安德鲁·休伯曼：难以置信。

And I have to say, when I heard that you were studying Wim Hof Method, I was positively delighted because I find that there are so few serious researchers in the realm of modern science that are both explorers and then take what they've gleaned from those explorations and then take it to the laboratory and put rigor on those and really try and parse mechanism with, of course, all the open mindedness to whatever the outcome happens to be, right?

我不得不说，当我听说你正在研究维姆·霍夫方法时，我非常高兴，因为我发现在现代科学领域很少有严肃的研究人员既是探索者又是探索者，然后把他们从这些探索中收集到的东西带到实验室，并对其进行严格的测试，并真正尝试和解析机制，当然，无论结果如何，都保持开放的态度，对吗？

I mean, good science involves necessarily asking questions alone, but raising hypotheses and being comfortable for those hypotheses to be correct or not correct.

我的意思是，好的科学必然涉及单独提出问题，但提出假设并接受这些假设的正确或不正确。

And I find your work to be just so incredibly creative and brave in that way.

我发现你的工作在这方面非常有创造力和勇敢。

And I love the way that you've meshed different aspects of your own personal journey into these different practices.

我喜欢您将个人旅程的不同方面融入这些不同实践的方式。

I don't know what came first, the science or the practices, but I have my guesses.

我不知道科学和实践哪个先出现，但我有我的猜测。

But I must say it's very refreshing.

但我必须说它非常令人耳目一新。

And I think it's exactly what the world needs right now in terms of tools for mental health and physical health, because far too many studies try and isolate variables without understanding a larger context of like what are the different types of stressors?

我认为这正是世界现在所需要的心理健康和身体健康工具，因为太多的研究试图隔离变量，而不了解更大的背景，例如不同类型的压力源是什么？

And clearly you're addressing that.

显然你正在解决这个问题。

Or there's this thing, breath work that some people might think, oh, you know, the Iceman Wim Hof, it's really esoteric and kind of crazy.

或者有这样的东西，呼吸练习，有些人可能会认为，哦，你知道，冰人 Wim Hof，它真的很深奥，有点疯狂。

I'm certainly not saying that.

我当然不是这么说的。

But you say, well, what are the critical elements from that that we might be able to extract to understand this positive you stress phenomena?

但你说，我们可以从中提取哪些关键要素来理解这种积极的压力现象？

So I want to first of all, just say thank you for doing the incredibly important work you do.

首先，我想对你们所做的极其重要的工作表示感谢。

Elissa Epel: And thank you, we were so delighted to see the paper you did with David Spiegel and to know that you're pursuing this path.

Elissa Epel：谢谢您，我们很高兴看到您与 David Spiegel 合作的论文，并知道您正在走这条路。

And it's very reassuring with your rigor and your depth of background.

你的严谨和背景深度让人非常放心。

I agree with you.

我同意你的看法。

These are the types of studies we need, releasing the inherent power of rejuvenation that's in our body.

这些是我们需要的研究类型，释放我们体内固有的复兴力量。

It's relatively untapped in these rigorous, controlled studies.

在这些严格的对照研究中，这一点相对尚未开发。

And we just can't reduce inflammation with a drug.

我们无法用药物来减轻炎症。

We can't reduce stress with a drug.

我们无法通过药物来减轻压力。

We desperately need to learn how to use the whole range of the nervous system, from the acute stress to the deep relaxation, to heal and to promote these healthy, resilient states.

我们迫切需要学习如何利用整个神经系统，从急性压力到深度放松，来治愈和促进这些健康、有弹性的状态。

Andrew Huberman: I couldn't agree more.

Andrew Huberman：我完全同意。

And UCSF is very, very fortunate to have you.

加州大学旧金山分校非常非常幸运有你们。

And should they ever forget that, please come to Stanford instead.

如果他们忘记了这一点，请来斯坦福大学。

Maybe we can recruit you away from UCSF.

也许我们可以从加州大学旧金山分校招募你。

And I'm here, I'm being friendly to my colleagues at UCSF, but they better treat you right, or else we're coming for you.

我在这里，我对加州大学旧金山分校的同事很友好，但他们最好善待你，否则我们就会来找你。

And I also just want to thank you for taking the time today to share this information.

我还要感谢您今天抽出时间分享这些信息。

Also, you've written wonderful books.

另外，你写了很棒的书。

We will provide a link to the newest one.

我们将提供最新版本的链接。

And I'll of course, cue people to that because it sounds like a very rich source of information and actionable tools that people can take in terms of mitigating stress.

当然，我会提示人们这一点，因为这听起来像是一个非常丰富的信息来源和人们可以用来缓解压力的可行工具。

And I love the idea that there's this discussion about certainty and control, two elements that are very prominent in my life, for better or for worse.

我喜欢这样的想法：关于确定性和控制力的讨论，无论好坏，这两个因素在我的生活中非常突出。

Elissa Epel : Elissa Epel: All of us.

艾丽莎·埃佩尔：艾丽莎·埃佩尔：我们所有人。

All of us.

我们所有人。

Andrew Huberman: Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。

And so really thank you for the work you're doing.

非常感谢您所做的工作。

Thank you for taking the time to share that work through books and through podcasts, and especially today on this one.

感谢您花时间通过书籍和播客分享这项工作，特别是今天的这一工作。

I know I speak on behalf of many, many people, and I just really want to extend my gratitude.

我知道我代表很多很多人发言，我真的想表达我的谢意。

Elissa Epel: Thank you so much.

艾丽莎·埃佩尔：非常感谢。

And thank you for your podcast.

感谢您的播客。

Andrew Huberman: Well, it's a labor of love and it's days like today and discussions like this that make it worthwhile.

安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯，这是一种爱的劳动，像今天这样的日子和这样的讨论让它变得值得。

So thank you.

所以谢谢你。

Elissa Epel: Thanks, Andrew.

艾丽莎·埃佩尔：谢谢，安德鲁。

Andrew Huberman: Thank you for joining me for today's discussion all about stress, aging, and metabolism with Dr. Elissa Epel.

Andrew Huberman：感谢您今天与我一起与 Elissa Epel 博士讨论压力、衰老和新陈代谢。

I hope you enjoyed the conversation as much as I did.

我希望你和我一样喜欢这次谈话。

If you'd like to learn more about Dr. Epel's laboratory's work, or if you'd like to learn about her books, such as the Telomere Effect and The Stress Prescription, please see the links in the show note captions.

如果您想了解有关 Epel 博士实验室工作的更多信息，或者想了解她的书籍，例如《端粒效应》和《压力处方》，请参阅节目注释标题中的链接。

If you're learning from and or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel.

如果您正在学习或喜欢此播客，请订阅我们的 YouTube 频道。

That's a terrific zero cost way to support us.

这是支持我们的绝佳零成本方式。

In addition, please subscribe to the podcast on Spotify and Apple.

此外，请订阅 Spotify 和 Apple 上的播客。

And in addition, on both Spotify and Apple, you can leave us up to a five star review.

此外，您还可以在 Spotify 和 Apple 上给我们留下五星级的评价。

If you have questions for me or topics you'd like me to cover on the Huberman Lab Podcast, or guests that you'd like me to consider inviting on the Huberman Lab Podcast, please put that in the comments on YouTube.

如果您对我有疑问，或者您希望我在 Huberman 实验室播客上介绍主题，或者您希望我考虑邀请嘉宾参加 Huberman 实验室播客，请在 YouTube 上发表评论。

I do read all the comments.

我确实阅读了所有评论。

In addition, please check out the sponsors mentioned at beginning and throughout today's episode.

此外，请查看今天节目开头和整个节目中提到的赞助商。

That's the best way to support this podcast.

这是支持这个播客的最佳方式。

Not so much on today's episode, but on various previous episodes of the Huberman Lab Podcast, we discuss supplements.

今天的节目不多，但在 Huberman 实验室播客的前几集中，我们讨论了补充剂。

While supplements aren't necessary for everybody, many people derive tremendous benefit from them for things like enhancing sleep, focus, and hormone support.

虽然补充剂并不是每个人都需要的，但许多人从它们中获得了巨大的好处，例如增强睡眠、注意力和激素支持。

The Huberman Lab Podcast is proud to have partnered with Momentous supplements.

Huberman 实验室播客很荣幸与 Momentous 补充剂合作。

If you'd like to hear more about the supplements discussed on the Huberman Lab Podcast, please go to livemomentous, spelled O-U-S.com/huberman.

如果您想了解有关 Huberman 实验室播客中讨论的补充剂的更多信息，请访问 livemomentous（拼写为 O-U-S.com/huberman）。

Again, that's livemomentous.com/huberman.

再说一遍，这是 livemomentous.com/huberman。

If you're not already following the Huberman Lab Podcast on social media, we are hubermanlab on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, and LinkedIn.

如果您还没有在社交媒体上关注 Huberman Lab 播客，请关注我们在 Instagram、Twitter、Facebook 和 LinkedIn 上的 hubermanlab。

And on all those places, I focus on material that somewhat overlaps with content from the Huberman Lab Podcast, but often is distinct from the content covered on the Huberman Lab Podcast.

在所有这些地方，我关注的材料与胡伯曼实验室播客的内容有些重叠，但通常与胡伯曼实验室播客中涵盖的内容不同。

So again, it's hubermanlab on all social media channels.

再说一次，所有社交媒体渠道上都是 hubermanlab。

For those of you that haven't already subscribed to our so called Neural Network Newsletter, this is a completely zero cost monthly newsletter that has summaries of podcast episodes and so called Toolkits.

对于那些还没有订阅我们所谓的神经网络通讯的人来说，这是一份完全零成本的每月通讯，其中包含播客剧集的摘要和所谓的工具包。

Toolkits are lists of about a page to two pages long that give the critical tools, for instance, for optimizing sleep, or for neuroplasticity or deliberate cold exposure or deliberate heat exposure, optimizing dopamine.

工具包是大约一页到两页长的列表，提供了关键工具，例如，用于优化睡眠、神经可塑性或有意冷暴露或有意热暴露、优化多巴胺。

Again, all available to you at zero cost.

同样，所有这些都可以零成本提供给您。

You simply go to hubermanlab.com.

您只需访问 hubermanlab.com 即可。

Go to the menu tab in the corner, scroll down to newsletter.

转到角落的菜单选项卡，向下滚动到新闻通讯。

You provide us your email.

您向我们提供您的电子邮件。

We do not share your email with anybody.

我们不会与任何人分享您的电子邮件。

And in addition to that, there are samples of toolkits on the hubermanlab.com website, again under newsletter, and you don't even have to sign up to access those.

除此之外，在 hubermanlab.com 网站上（同样在时事通讯下）还有工具包示例，您甚至无需注册即可访问这些示例。

But I think most people do end up signing up for the newsletter because it's rich with useful information.

但我认为大多数人最终都会订阅时事通讯，因为它包含丰富的有用信息。

And again, completely zero cost.

再说一遍，完全零成本。

Thank you again for joining joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Elissa Epel, all about stress, aging, and metabolism.

再次感谢您参加今天与 Elissa Epel 博士的讨论，讨论的主题是压力、衰老和新陈代谢。

And last but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.

最后但并非最不重要的一点是，感谢您对科学的兴趣。