Dr. E.J. Chichilnisky: How the Brain Works, Curing Blindness & How to Navigate a Career Path
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.
欢迎来到休伯曼实验室播客，我们在这里讨论科学和基于科学的日常生活工具。
I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.
我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。
My guest today is Dr. EJ Chichilnisky.
今天我的嘉宾是 EJ Chichilnisky 博士。
Dr. EJ Chichilnisky is a professor of neurosurgery, ophthalmology, and neuroscience at Stanford University.
EJ Chichilnisky 博士是斯坦福大学神经外科、眼科和神经科学教授。
He is one of the world's leading researchers trying to understand how we see the world around us.
他是世界领先的研究人员之一，致力于了解我们如何看待周围的世界。
That is, how visual perception occurs, and then applying that information directly to the design of neural prostheses, literally robotic eyes that can allow blind people to see once again.
也就是说，视觉感知是如何发生的，然后将这些信息直接应用到神经假体的设计中，神经假体是真正的机器人眼睛，可以让盲人再次看到东西。
Today's discussion is a very important one for anyone who wants to understand how their brain works.
对于任何想要了解大脑如何运作的人来说，今天的讨论非常重要。
Indeed, EJ spells out in very clear terms exactly how the world around us is encoded by the neurons, the nerve cells within our brain, in order to create these elaborate visual images that we essentially see within our minds.
事实上，EJ 以非常清晰的术语准确地阐明了我们周围的世界是如何由神经元（我们大脑中的神经细胞）编码的，以便创建我们在头脑中本质上看到的这些复杂的视觉图像。
And with that understanding, he explains how that can be applied to engineer specific robotic AI and machine learning devices that can allow human brains not only to see once again in the blind, but also to perceive things that typical human brains can't, and indeed for memory to be enhanced and for cognition to be enhanced.
有了这种理解，他解释了如何将其应用于设计特定的机器人人工智能和机器学习设备，这些设备不仅可以让人类大脑在盲人中再次看到东西，而且可以感知典型人类大脑无法感知的事物，并且确实可以增强记忆和认知。
This is the direction that neuroscience is going, and in the course of today's discussion, we have the opportunity to learn from the world expert in these topics where the science is now and where it is headed.
这是神经科学的发展方向，在今天的讨论过程中，我们有机会向这些主题的世界专家学习科学现在的现状和发展方向。
During today's discussion, we also get heavily into the topic of how to select one's professional and personal path.
在今天的讨论中，我们还深入探讨了如何选择职业和个人道路的话题。
And indeed, you'll learn from Dr. Chichilnisky that he has a somewhat unusual path both into science and through science.
事实上，您将从 Chichilnisky 博士那里了解到，他在进入科学和通过科学方面都有一条不同寻常的道路。
So for those of you that believe that everyone that's highly accomplished in their career always knew exactly what they wanted to do at every stage, you'll soon learn that that is absolutely not the case with EJ.
因此，对于那些相信每个在职业生涯中取得巨大成就的人总是清楚地知道自己在每个阶段想要做什么的人来说，您很快就会发现 EJ 的情况绝对不是这样。
He describes wandering through three different graduate programs, taking several years off from school in order to dance.
他描述了自己在三个不同的研究生课程中徘徊的经历，为了跳舞而休学了几年。
Yes, you heard that correctly, to dance.
是的，你没有听错，就是跳舞。
And how that wandering, and indeed dancing, helped him decide exactly what he wanted to do with his professional life and exactly what specific problems to try and tackle in the realm of neuroscience and medicine.
以及这种徘徊，实际上是跳舞，如何帮助他准确地决定他想在自己的职业生涯中做什么，以及在神经科学和医学领域尝试解决哪些具体问题。
It's a discussion that I'm certain that everybody, scientist or no, young or old, can benefit from and can apply the specific tools that EJ describes in their own life and pursuits.
我确信每个人，无论是否是科学家，无论年轻还是年长，都可以从这次讨论中受益，并且可以在自己的生活和追求中应用 EJ 描述的特定工具。
Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.
在开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。
It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public.
然而，我的愿望和努力的一部分是向公众提供有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本消费者信息。
In keeping with that theme, I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast.
为了与这个主题保持一致，我要感谢今天播客的赞助商。
And now for my discussion with Dr. EJ Chichilnisky.
现在我与 EJ Chichilnisky 博士进行讨论。
Dr. EJ Chichilnisky, welcome.
EJ Chichilnisky 博士，欢迎光临。
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
Good to see you.
很高兴见到你。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
For the audience, we are friends.
对于观众来说，我们是朋友。
We go way back.
我们回到过去。
EJ has been a few years or more ahead of me in the science game, and the best way to describe you and your work, EJ, is you're an astronaut.
EJ 在科学领域领先我几年甚至更多，描述你和你的工作的最好方式，EJ，就是你是一名宇航员。
You go places no one else has been willing to go before.
你去了以前没有人愿意去的地方。
You develop new technologies in order to do that, all with the bold mission of trying to understand how the nervous system, which of course includes the brain, works and how to make it better with engineering.
为了做到这一点，你开发了新技术，所有这些都带着大胆的使命，试图了解神经系统（当然包括大脑）如何工作，以及如何通过工程使其变得更好。
So today, we are going to get into all of that, but just to start off and get everybody on the same page, maybe we could just take a moment and talk about the brain and nervous system and what it consists of that allows it to do all the sorts of things that we're going to get into, like see things in our environment and respond to those things in our environment.
所以今天，我们将讨论所有这些，但为了让每个人都达成共识，也许我们可以花点时间讨论一下大脑和神经系统，以及它的组成部分，它允许它做我们将要讨论的所有事情，比如看到我们环境中的事物并对我们环境中的这些事物做出反应。
So at risk of throwing too much at you right out the gate, what's your one-to-five minute version of how the brain works?
那么，冒着一开始就向你扔太多东西的风险，你用一到五分钟的时间来了解大脑是如何运作的？
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
Oh, I don't have a one-to-five minute version of how the brain works, but I can tell you how I think vision is initiated in the brain.
哦，我没有一到五分钟的大脑如何工作的版本，但我可以告诉你我认为视觉是如何在大脑中启动的。
And you and I go back a long way, so we have a lot of common understanding about this, but I'll narrate it from scratch, if that makes sense.
你和我可以追溯到很久以前，所以我们对此有很多共同的理解，但如果有道理的话，我会从头开始叙述。
So vision is initiated in the retina of the eye, which is a sheet of neural tissue at the rear of the eye that captures the light that is incident on the eye, that comes in through the eye, transforms that light into electrical signals, processes those electrical signals in interesting ways and changes them up, and then sends that visual information to the brain, where it is used to bring about our sense of vision.
因此，视觉是在眼睛的视网膜中启动的，视网膜是眼睛后部的一层神经组织，它捕获入射到眼睛上的光线，通过眼睛进入，将光线转化为电信号，以有趣的方式处理这些电信号并改变它们，然后将视觉信息发送到大脑，在那里它被用来带来我们的视觉感。
And you asked me about the one to five minute version of how the brain works.
你问我关于大脑如何运作的一到五分钟版本。
I don't know, but I do know that the brain receives all these patterns of electrical activity coming out of these nerve cells in the retina and somehow assembles that into our visual experience, whether that be responding to things coming at us or our circadian rhythms that govern our sleep and behavior, or identifying objects for prey or avoiding predators or appreciating beauty.
我不知道，但我确实知道大脑接收来自视网膜神经细胞的所有这些电活动模式，并以某种方式将其组装成我们的视觉体验，无论是对向我们袭来的事物做出反应，还是对控制我们睡眠和行为的昼夜节律做出反应，或者识别猎物的物体或躲避捕食者或欣赏美。
And what we know is that the brain receives a fantastically complex set of signals from the retina and puts that all together into our visual experience, and we are very visual creatures, obviously.
我们知道，大脑从视网膜接收一组极其复杂的信号，并将这些信号整合到我们的视觉体验中，显然，我们是视觉生物。
So I think that's a big part of how the brain works, because so much of what we do revolves around vision, revolves around how the brain puts together these signals coming out of the retina, and I would love to understand how that works.
所以我认为这是大脑工作原理的一个重要部分，因为我们所做的很多事情都围绕着视觉，围绕着大脑如何将来自视网膜的这些信号组合在一起，我很想了解它是如何工作的。
At the moment, I don't, and what we're trying to do is get a really complete understanding of how that begins in the retina and then how we can restore it in those who have lost sight.
目前，我还没有，我们正在努力做的是真正全面地了解视网膜是如何开始的，以及如何在失明的人身上恢复它。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Why focus on this issue in the retina, this thin set of layers of neurons that line the back of the eye?
为什么要关注视网膜（排列在眼睛后部的一层薄薄的神经元）的这个问题？
Why explore vision there?
为什么要在那里探索视觉？
Obviously, there are centers within the brain that, of course, contain neurons, nerve cells that are involved in vision.
显然，大脑内有一些中心，其中包含与视觉有关的神经元和神经细胞。
If one wants to understand visual perception, and I agree, by the way, that visual perception is one of the most dominant forces in the quality and experience of our life, why focus on the retina?
如果一个人想了解视觉感知，顺便说一句，我同意视觉感知是我们生活质量和体验中最主要的力量之一，那么为什么要关注视网膜呢？
Why not focus on the visual cortex or the visual thalamus?
为什么不关注视觉皮层或视觉丘脑呢？
What's so special about the retina?
视网膜有什么特别之处？
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
Well, we have to focus on all of it because understanding the retina won't give us a full understanding of how all this works, obviously.
好吧，我们必须关注所有这些，因为显然了解视网膜并不能让我们完全理解这一切是如何工作的。
And if you don't have your visual cortex and visual thalamus, you won't see.
如果你没有视觉皮层和视觉丘脑，你就看不到东西。
But if you don't have your retina, you also won't see.
但如果你没有视网膜，你也看不到东西。
You won't even have a chance to see.
你连看的机会都没有。
So I focus on the retina because I enjoy the possibility that we can really understand a piece of the nervous system in my lifetime, in our lifetimes.
所以我专注于视网膜，因为我喜欢在我的一生中，在我们的一生中，我们能够真正理解神经系统的一部分的可能性。
We can understand it so well that we can build it, replace it, restore its function.
我们可以很好地理解它，以至于我们可以建造它、替换它、恢复它的功能。
That's farther off in the central regions of the brain.
那是在大脑中央区域较远的地方。
That's going to be quite a bit harder.
这将会变得相当困难。
I find satisfaction in really understanding something so well that I can write down in a mathematical formula what it's doing, that I can test my hypotheses up and down, and yes, we really get how this little machine works, and that I can engineer devices to replace the function of that circuit when it's lost.
我对真正理解某件事感到满足，以至于我可以用数学公式写下它在做什么，我可以上下测试我的假设，是的，我们真的了解这台小机器是如何工作的，并且我可以设计设备来替换该电路丢失时的功能。
That, to me, is just deeply satisfying.
对我来说，这就是深深的满足。
But there also is a really fundamental role for people who want to go and do more exploratory work in the visual brain, as you mentioned, in the visual cortex, in the thalamus, and other places.
但对于那些想要在视觉大脑中进行更多探索性工作的人来说，正如你提到的，在视觉皮层、丘脑和其他地方，也起着非常重要的作用。
Because ultimately, those retinal signals won't lead to anything if those areas aren't putting it all together to govern our perception and ultimately our behavior.
因为最终，如果这些区域不能将所有信号组合在一起来控制我们的感知并最终控制我们的行为，那么这些视网膜信号将不会产生任何结果。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So let's talk about the retina in its full beauty and detail.
那么让我们来谈谈视网膜的全部美丽和细节。
Three layers of cells that line the back of the eye like a pie crust somehow take light that comes into the eye.
眼睛后部的三层细胞像馅饼皮一样排列，以某种方式吸收进入眼睛的光线。
The lens focuses that light.
镜头聚焦光线。
If it doesn't do that well, we put lenses in front of our eyes, such as contact lenses or spectacles, and somehow takes that light and transforms it, as you said, into neural signals and processes that within the retina.
如果效果不佳，我们会将镜片放在眼睛前面，例如隐形眼镜或框架眼镜，然后以某种方式吸收光线并将其转换为神经信号并在视网膜内进行处理。
So let's take a deep dive into the retina and do so with the understanding, at least my understanding is that in part thanks to your work and the work of others, this is perhaps the best understood piece of the brain.
因此，让我们深入研究视网膜，并带着理解来这样做，至少我的理解是，部分归功于您和其他人的工作，这可能是大脑中最好理解的部分。
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
Yes.
是的。
I think it's a solid argument that it's the best understood piece of the brain, and we'll turn back to that in a minute.
我认为这是一个可靠的论据，它是大脑中最容易理解的部分，我们稍后会回到这个话题。
So the retina begins with a sheet of cells called the photoreceptor cells that are highly specialized.
因此，视网膜始于一层高度特化的细胞，称为感光细胞。
These are cells that essentially don't exist anywhere else in the brain, and what they do is transform light energy into electrical signals in neurons.
这些细胞基本上不存在于大脑其他任何地方，它们的作用是将光能转化为神经元中的电信号。
Very specialized, very demanding cells.
非常专业、要求非常高的细胞。
They require a lot of maintenance, and they die relatively easily, which is what gives rise to some of the forms of blindness.
它们需要大量的维护，而且相对容易死亡，这就是导致某些形式失明的原因。
Those are the, you might call them pixel detectors.
这些就是，你可以称之为像素探测器。
They're tiny cells called photoreceptors that each one captures light from a particular location in the world.
它们是一种称为光感受器的微小细胞，每个细胞都能捕捉来自世界特定位置的光线。
That sheet of cells has done that initial transduction process where light is converted into neural signals that the brain can then begin to work with.
那片细胞已经完成了最初的转导过程，其中光被转换成神经信号，然后大脑可以开始处理这些信号。
The second layer is responsible for processing, adjusting, changing, mixing and matching, comparing signals in different neurons, many complex operations that we're still trying to understand, and consists of dozens of distinct cell types that extract features, if you will, of the visual world from the elementary pixels represented in the photoreceptor cells.
第二层负责处理、调整、改变、混合和匹配、比较不同神经元中的信号以及我们仍在试图理解的许多复杂操作，并且由数十种不同的细胞类型组成，如果你愿意的话，它们可以从感光细胞中表示的基本像素中提取视觉世界的特征。
So that second layer is receiving the input from that sheet of photoreceptors and picking stuff out of it.
因此，第二层正在接收来自光感受器片的输入并从中提取内容。
The third layer of cells is the so-called retinal ganglion cells.
第三层细胞是所谓的视网膜神经节细胞。
That's the only term that probably will come up repeatedly in this conversation.
这是本次对话中可能会反复出现的唯一术语。
So for your viewers and listeners, these retinal ganglion cells are the ones who are responsible for taking the signals that are there in the retina and sending them to the brain so that the process of vision can begin.
因此，对于观众和听众来说，这些视网膜神经节细胞负责接收视网膜中的信号并将其发送到大脑，以便开始视觉过程。
They are the messengers, if you will, from the retina to the brain.
如果你愿意的话，它们是从视网膜到大脑的信使。
The retinal ganglion cells, and there are about 20 different types in humans, are again, feature extractors.
人类的视网膜神经节细胞大约有 20 种不同类型，它们也是特征提取器。
They pick out different bits and pieces of the visual scene and send interesting stuff to the brain, trying to leave out the uninteresting stuff.
他们挑选出视觉场景的不同片段，并将有趣的东西发送到大脑，试图忽略不感兴趣的东西。
And the 20 or so cell types all pick out different types of information from the visual scene.
这20种左右的细胞类型都从视觉场景中挑选出不同类型的信息。
You can sort of think of them as Photoshop filters, each cell type in the retina.
您可以将它们视为 Photoshop 滤镜，即视网膜中的每种细胞类型。
Again, about 20 different ganglion cell types.
同样，大约有 20 种不同的神经节细胞类型。
Each type represents the full scene, the entire visual world, but picks out different features.
每种类型代表整个场景、整个视觉世界，但挑选出不同的特征。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Such as?
比如？
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
Some cells pick out spatial detail, tiny little points of light, almost.
有些细胞几乎能辨别出空间细节，即微小的光点。
Some cells pick out and signal information about things that are moving in the visual world.
一些细胞挑选并发出关于视觉世界中移动的事物的信息。
Some cells pick out information that's been captured about different wavelengths from the photoreceptor cells, and thereby giving us our sensations of color, and probably more things in those 20 different ganglion cell types that we don't fully understand.
一些细胞从感光细胞中挑选出不同波长的信息，从而为我们提供颜色感觉，以及可能在这 20 种不同的神经节细胞类型中提供更多我们不完全理解的东西。
The result then is that the retina has this sort of a representation of the visual world, but it has 20 different representations, not one.
结果是，视网膜具有视觉世界的这种表征，但它有 20 种不同的表征，而不是一种。
It's not one picture that comes out of the retina and gets sent to the brain.
它不是从视网膜发出并发送到大脑的一张图片。
No. It's 20 different pictures, and you can think of them maybe as 20 different photoshopped pictures, but one of them has the edges highlighted, one of them has the colors highlighted, one of them has movement encoded in it.
不。这是 20 张不同的图片，您可以将它们视为 20 张不同的 Photoshop 图片，但其中一张突出显示了边缘，其中一张突出显示了颜色，其中一张包含了运动编码。
And somehow, these filters send the information to many different targets in the brain, and then our brain puts it all together, and then we have a cohesive sense of the visual world, which is the remarkable feature that we really don't understand.
不知何故，这些过滤器将信息发送到大脑中的许多不同目标，然后我们的大脑将它们组合在一起，然后我们对视觉世界有了一种有凝聚力的感觉，这是我们真正不理解的显着特征。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Amazing.
太棒了。
Is it fair for those that don't work with Photoshop to think about these different Photoshop filters, perhaps as different movies of the visual world?
对于那些不使用 Photoshop 的人来说，将这些不同的 Photoshop 滤镜视为视觉世界的不同电影是否公平？
One movie contains the outlines of objects and people and things.
一部电影包含物体、人和事物的轮廓。
Another movie is showing the motion of blobs in the environment, meaning whatever's moving in the environment is kind of just represented as blobs.
另一部电影展示了环境中斑点的运动，这意味着环境中移动的任何东西都被表示为斑点。
Another movie is just the color in the environment.
另一部电影只是环境中的颜色。
And then all of those, what I'm calling movies, are sent into the brain, and then the brain somehow combines those in ways that allow us to see each other and see cars and objects and recognize faces.
然后所有这些，我称之为电影，都被发送到大脑，然后大脑以某种方式将这些组合起来，使我们能够看到彼此，看到汽车和物体并识别面孔。
Is that one way to think about it?
这是一种思考方式吗？
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
That's exactly how I think about it.
我就是这么想的。
Maybe it's a better way to say it, yeah.
也许这是一个更好的表达方式，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, I like the Photoshop filter analogy.
不，我喜欢 Photoshop 滤镜的比喻。
Just for those that don't work with Photoshop, I just think that the movie analogy might be a decent alternative.
对于那些不使用 Photoshop 的人来说，我只是认为电影类比可能是一个不错的选择。
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
How the retina works is an example, we think, of how all sensory systems work.
我们认为，视网膜的工作原理是所有感觉系统工作原理的一个例子。
There's an initial representation in a specialized cell type that is responsible for and capable of extracting physical features from the world.
一种特殊的细胞类型有一个最初的表征，它负责并能够从世界中提取物理特征。
And then neural circuits in the brain use that information in different ways to grab stuff out of the visual world.
然后大脑中的神经回路以不同的方式使用这些信息从视觉世界中获取东西。
In the auditory system, the sound world is represented also in specialized cells that capture sound energy and transduce that into neural signals.
在听觉系统中，声音世界也以捕获声音能量并将其转换为神经信号的专门细胞来表示。
And then subsequent stages of processing in the auditory system pick out different features of our auditory world.
然后听觉系统的后续处理阶段会挑选出我们听觉世界的不同特征。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Like the frequency, how high or how low a tone is.
就像频率一样，音调有多高或多低。
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The direction it's coming from.
它来自的方向。
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
Right.
对。
The movement of it, how loud it is, different features are extracted.
它的运动、声音有多大，都会提取不同的特征。
So we think the visual system is just an example of how the external world is represented in our brain.
所以我们认为视觉系统只是外部世界如何在我们的大脑中呈现的一个例子。
And of course, in some sense, a philosophical approach to the brain is really saying, well, there's the sensory world, and then there's the actions we take, and there's almost nothing else that we really know other than those two things.
当然，从某种意义上说，大脑的哲学方法实际上是在说，有感官世界，然后有我们采取的行动，除了这两件事之外，我们几乎不知道任何其他事情。
How the sensory world comes in, and then finally it results in our action.
感官世界如何进入，最终导致我们的行动。
That's what our brain is about.
这就是我们大脑的作用。
Because vision is so important for people, I find it absolutely compelling and fascinating.
因为视觉对人们来说非常重要，所以我发现它绝对引人注目且令人着迷。
As an example, as you know well, many people study rodents to understand how different aspects of the brain work.
举个例子，众所周知，许多人研究啮齿类动物以了解大脑不同方面的工作原理。
And rodents are interesting animals and do all sorts of really cool things, but they interact with the world differently than we do.
啮齿动物是有趣的动物，可以做各种很酷的事情，但它们与世界的互动方式与我们不同。
In a lot of ways, they sense by smelling, they identify objects by smelling, and they navigate with their whiskers to a large extent.
在很多方面，它们通过嗅觉来感知，通过嗅觉来识别物体，并且在很大程度上用胡须来导航。
We don't do any of that.
我们不做任何事情。
You don't navigate with your whiskers, at least I don't think you do.
你不会用你的胡须来导航，至少我不认为你会这样做。
You don't recognize me when I walk in the room by my smell.
当我走进房间时，你凭着气味认不出我。
No, you use vision for all that.
不，你要利用视觉来实现这一切。
And we humans use vision, so it's a really fundamental aspect of who we are as biological creatures.
我们人类使用视觉，所以这是我们作为生物的一个非常基本的方面。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I wonder if, just for sake of entertainment, we could think about how the human retina, and therefore vision in our species, differs a little bit from some extreme examples of vision in other species.
我想知道，仅仅为了娱乐，我们是否可以考虑一下人类的视网膜以及我们物种的视觉与其他物种的视觉的一些极端例子有何不同。
Not to make this a comparative or zoological exploration, but just to really illustrate the fact that the specific cell types within our retinas create a visual representation of the outside world that can be, and often is, very different from that of other species.
并不是为了进行比较或动物学探索，而是为了真正说明这样一个事实：我们视网膜内的特定细胞类型创建了外部世界的视觉表示，这种表示可能而且通常与其他物种非常不同。
For instance, or at least my understanding, is that the mantis shrimp sees, I don't know, 60 to 100 different variations of each color that we are essentially blind to because their photoreceptors can detect very subtle differences in red, for instance, long wavelengths of light, what most people refer to as red.
例如，或者至少我的理解是，螳螂虾看到的每种颜色有 60 到 100 种不同的变化，而我们基本上看不到这些变化，因为它们的光感受器可以检测到红色的非常细微的差异，例如长波长的光，大多数人称之为红色。
Pit vipers can sense heat emissions, essentially with their eyes, but also other organs.
响尾蛇可以感知热量排放，主要是用眼睛，但也可以用其他器官。
And on and on.
不断地。
I raise this because I think the human neural retina is such an incredible example of extracting features from the visual world that then we recreate.
我提出这个问题是因为我认为人类神经视网膜是一个令人难以置信的例子，它从视觉世界中提取特征，然后我们重新创建。
But I think it's also worth reminding everyone and ourselves that it's not a complete representation of what's out there.
但我认为这也值得提醒每个人和我们自己，这并不能完全代表现有的情况。
There's a lot in light that we don't see because our neural retina just can't turn it into electrical signals, right?
有很多光我们看不到，因为我们的神经视网膜无法将其转化为电信号，对吧？
Do you want to give some examples of what we can't see?
你想举一些我们看不到的例子吗？
And if any particular examples from the animal kingdom delight you, feel free to throw those out.
如果动物王国中有任何特定的例子让您感到高兴，请随意将其扔掉。
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
Well, one thing, you mentioned color.
嗯，有一件事，你提到了颜色。
We experience a rich sensation of color when we look at the world and say, "Wow, I see all these colors." That's immediate, and that's just how we talk about it.
当我们观察世界并说“哇，我看到了所有这些颜色”时，我们会体验到丰富的色彩感觉。这是直接的，这就是我们谈论它的方式。
But in fact, we have very little information about color.
但事实上，我们对颜色的了解非常少。
Color is a very high-dimensional, complex thing.
颜色是一个非常高维、复杂的东西。
Or wavelength, I should say.
我应该说，或者波长。
Wavelength information really is about how much energy there is in the light around us at different wavelengths.
波长信息实际上是关于我们周围不同波长的光中有多少能量。
We only have three sort of snapshots of that in our retinas with the three different types of photoreceptor cells that are sensitive to different bands of the wavelength spectrum.
我们的视网膜中只有三种快照，其中三种不同类型的感光细胞对不同的波长谱带敏感。
Three is not a lot.
三个并不算多。
As you just said, other creatures have many more ways of capturing wavelength information.
正如你刚才所说，其他生物有更多捕获波长信息的方法。
And one way you can verify for yourself that we just have three is to realize that if you look at your TV, there are only three primaries on your TV.
您可以亲自验证我们只有三个的一种方法是，如果您看一下电视，就会发现电视上只有三个原色。
There's a red, there's a green, and there's a blue.
有一个红色，有一个绿色，还有一个蓝色。
That's it.
就是这样。
And from those three primaries The entire richness of the experience on your TV set is composed.
电视机上丰富的体验就是由这三项原色组成的。
So with just those three things, you basically are able to create any human visual sensation, while the mantis shrimp would be like, "That's nothing.
因此，只要有了这三件事，你基本上就能够创造出任何人类视觉感觉，而螳螂虾会说，“那没什么。
There's so much more stuff out there that's not represented on this TV." If you could speak to the mantis shrimp.
还有很多东西没有在这台电视上呈现。”如果你能和螳螂虾说话就好了。
Another thing we maybe don't see, another example of a difference in the animal kingdom is, so again, taking rodents as an example, one of the things that rodents have to do is to not be hunted by birds that are coming down toward them.
另一件我们可能没有看到的事情，动物界差异的另一个例子是，再次以啮齿动物为例，啮齿动物必须做的事情之一就是不要被飞向它们的鸟类猎杀。
And so it appears that there are cells in the retina that seem to be quite sensitive to looming, to something dark that's getting bigger, like a shadow coming from a bird coming down at you.
因此，视网膜中的某些细胞似乎对若隐若现的事物、变大的黑暗事物非常敏感，比如一只鸟向你飞来的影子。
We don't know for sure that this is exactly what causes animals to avoid being eaten by birds, but there's interesting evidence in that direction.
我们不确定这是否正是导致动物避免被鸟类吃掉的原因，但在这方面有有趣的证据。
That's not really a big thing for us, for humans, as far as I know.
据我所知，这对我们、对人类来说并不是什么大事。
We're not typically hunted by huge birds, so that's not a thing we need.
我们通常不会被大型鸟类猎杀，所以这不是我们需要的东西。
And I think that's where it comes back to where you were headed, if I understand right, which is we occupy different biological niches, we and the mantis shrimp and the rodents, and our visual systems reflect that.
我认为这就是回到你要去的地方，如果我理解正确的话，那就是我们占据不同的生物位，我们、螳螂虾和啮齿动物，我们的视觉系统反映了这一点。
We have different stuff that we're looking for in our visual environment than other creatures are.
我们在视觉环境中寻找的东西与其他生物不同。
And so our eyes are different, and that's one of the reasons that we emphasize work on the human retina, as opposed to certain other animal species that would be less clearly relevant to the visual experience you and I have.
因此，我们的眼睛是不同的，这就是我们强调对人类视网膜进行研究的原因之一，而不是与你我的视觉体验不太相关的某些其他动物物种。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So let's talk about these incredible experiments that your laboratory has been doing for several decades now.
那么，让我们来谈谈您的实验室几十年来一直在做的这些令人难以置信的实验。
I've had the privilege of sitting in on some of these experiments, and they are very involved- ...
我有幸参加了其中一些实验，他们非常投入——......
to say the least.
至少可以说。
If you could just walk us through one of these experiments, I think the audience would appreciate understanding what goes into, quote-unquote, trying to understand what's going on in the electrical activity of these specific retinal cell types, the retinal ganglion cells in particular.
如果你能引导我们完成其中一个实验，我想观众会很高兴理解其中的内容，引用不引用，试图理解这些特定视网膜细胞类型，特别是视网膜神经节细胞的电活动中发生了什么。
What does this look like?
这看起来像什么？
You're in your laboratory at Stanford, and you get a phone call.
你在斯坦福大学的实验室里，接到一个电话。
Someone says, "I got a retina." What happens next?
有人说：“我有视网膜。”接下来会发生什么？
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
We scramble like crazy.
我们疯狂地争抢。
We drop everything we're doing, cancel all our appointments, and get ourselves ready for 48 hours of nonstop work down in the lab, getting as much data as we possibly can from the retina.
我们放下手中的一切，取消所有的预约，做好在实验室 48 小时不间断工作的准备，从视网膜获取尽可能多的数据。
The most exciting example of what you just said is when we get a human retina.
你刚才所说的最令人兴奋的例子是当我们获得人类视网膜时。
When, for example, there's a donor who has died, and the retina is available for research, we jump at that opportunity.
例如，当一名捐赠者去世，而视网膜可供研究时，我们就会抓住这个机会。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
How soon after the person is deceased do you need to get the eye globe, the eyeball, in order to get the retina in a condition that would allow you to record electrical signals from it?
人死后多久您需要取出眼球，以使视网膜处于可以记录电信号的状态？
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
A few minutes.
几分钟。
Just a few minutes.
只需几分钟。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So you're waiting in the hospital?
那你在医院等着吗？
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
The way we typically get these eyes is from brain-dead individuals, so people who are legally and medically dead, but their hearts are still pumping, and therefore, their retinas are still alive and functioning.
我们通常从脑死亡的人身上获得这些眼睛，这些人在法律上和医学上都已经死亡，但他们的心脏仍在跳动，因此他们的视网膜仍然活着并发挥作用。
When those individuals are used, the bodies of those individuals are used for organ donations, we can benefit from that organ donation setup that organ distribution centers do to save many people's lives, and also to promote research.
当这些人被使用时，这些人的身体被用于器官捐赠，我们可以从器官分配中心的器官捐赠设置中受益，以挽救许多人的生命，并促进研究。
So we sometimes get those retinas, and that begins the experiment for us.
所以我们有时会得到这些视网膜，这就是我们实验的开始。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm going to ask for a few more details here just to put the picture in people's minds.
我想在这里询问更多细节，只是为了让人们记住这幅图景。
And not to be gruesome, I just really want people to understand what's involved here.
并不是要可怕，我只是想让人们了解这里涉及的内容。
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So you'll get a call.
所以你会接到电话。
We've got a patient who is soon to be deceased.
我们有一位即将去世的病人。
They've consented to giving their eye globes, their eyeballs-
他们同意捐出他们的眼球，他们的眼球——
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
for research so that you can study the human retina.
用于研究，以便您可以研究人类视网膜。
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is it you who goes over and takes the eyes out?
是你走过去把眼睛挖出来的吗？
Does somebody do that or hand them to you in a bucket of ice?
有人这样做或者把它们放在冰桶里递给你吗？
I'm sorry if I'm making people queasy at all, but this is, folks, how one goes about trying to understand how the human brain works.
如果我让大家感到不舒服，我很抱歉，但这就是人们试图理解人类大脑如何运作的方式。
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
Absolutely, and this is also how you go about donating your heart so that you can save somebody else's life who needs a heart transplant.
当然，这也是您捐献心脏的方式，这样您就可以挽救需要心脏移植的其他人的生命。
The same incredible organizations that do the harvesting of the tissue for us, their primary goal is to do that for organ donations to save lives.
同样令人难以置信的组织为我们收集组织，他们的主要目标是通过器官捐赠来拯救生命。
They save lives every day.
他们每天都在拯救生命。
These people are incredible.
这些人太不可思议了。
Donor Network West is one of those organizations, the one that we work with.
Donor Network West 就是这些组织之一，也是我们合作的组织之一。
They're really amazing.
他们真的很棒。
So their technicians or a retinal surgeon will take the eye out, give it to myself or somebody from my lab, who will bring it back to the lab, and we have a way to keep the eye alive and functioning, just the eye by itself.
因此，他们的技术人员或视网膜外科医生会将眼睛取出，交给我自己或我实验室的某个人，他们将把它带回实验室，我们有办法保持眼睛的活力和功能，只是眼睛本身。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is this always at Stanford, or do you sometimes travel elsewhere?
总是在斯坦福大学，还是有时会去其他地方旅行？
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
Local hospitals up to an hour away.
距离当地医院最多一小时路程。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So then you drive them back.
然后你就把他们赶回来。
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
We drive them back.
我们把他们赶回去。
It's the Retina Express.
这是视网膜快车。
And when we're bringing back the Retina Express, again, it's all hands on deck in our lab.
当我们再次推出 Retina Express 时，实验室里的所有人都齐心协力。
We are scrambling, setting up all of our equipment, getting everything ready.
我们正在抓紧时间，架设所有设备，准备好一切。
You've been at these experiments.
你已经参与过这些实验。
They're intense, and they really are 48-hour marathons of incredible activity by really dedicated individuals.
它们非常激烈，而且确实是 48 小时的马拉松，由真正敬业的个人进行令人难以置信的活动。
So we might get those eyes sometimes again at 2:00 in the morning.
因此，有时我们可能会在凌晨 2:00 再次看到这些眼睛。
That's common.
这很常见。
And from that 2:00 in the morning time begins the experiment.
从凌晨2:00开始实验。
So we bring the eyes back, we open them up, and we have access to the rear of the eye, which is where the retina is.
所以我们把眼睛带回来，打开它们，然后我们就可以接触到眼睛的后部，也就是视网膜所在的地方。
It's a thin sheet of neural tissue at the back part of the eye.
它是眼睛后部的一层薄薄的神经组织。
We hemisect the eye, cut it in half so that we can see the back.
我们将眼睛切成两半，这样我们就可以看到背面。
It's like half of a globe, if you will.
如果你愿意的话，它就像半个地球。
And then we put in relaxing cuts and lay it out flat so we can see what we're working with.
然后我们进行放松的剪辑并将其平放，这样我们就可以看到我们正在处理的内容。
And we take little segments of retina out in the subsequent 48 hours, cut them out, maybe a three-by-three millimeter piece of the retina, a little chunk of retinal tissue, and bring it into an electrophysiology recording and stimulation apparatus that allows us to interact with it.
在接下来的 48 小时内，我们取出一小块视网膜，将它们切下来，也许是一块三乘三毫米的视网膜，一小块视网膜组织，然后将其放入电生理学记录和刺激装置中，使我们能够与其互动。
And we do two types of experiments with that.
我们对此做了两种类型的实验。
So this electrophysiological recording and stimulation apparatus is very custom-built by our physics collaborators who have developed high-end equipment.
因此，这种电生理记录和刺激设备是由我们开发高端设备的物理合作者定制的。
It allows us to record and stimulate through 512 channels simultaneously at very high density.
它允许我们通过 512 个通道以非常高的密度同时记录和刺激。
This is pretty high-end stuff in terms of technology for interrogating and manipulating the electrical signals in the retina.
就询问和操纵视网膜电信号的技术而言，这是相当高端的东西。
That's what we specialize in in my lab.
这就是我们实验室的专长。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Can I just ask a question about this device?
我可以询问有关此设备的问题吗？
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I've seen it before.
我以前见过。
It's very small.
它非常小。
As you mentioned, you're recording from a few millimeters square of the retina from this recently deceased patient.
正如您所提到的，您正在从这位最近去世的患者的几毫米见方的视网膜上进行记录。
It looks a little bit like a bed of nails, right?
它看起来有点像钉床，对吧？
Like tiny little micro wires all arranged very closely to one another.
就像微小的微电线一样，彼此排列得非常紧密。
You got the retina laying down on top of it.
你把视网膜放在它上面。
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And that bed of nails can extract, meaning record, the electrical signals that are coming out of the retinal ganglion cells.
指甲床可以提取（即记录）从视网膜神经节细胞发出的电信号。
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And the retina is still alive, so you are in a position to shine light on it and essentially make it behave in the same way it would if it were still lining the back of a-
视网膜仍然活着，所以你可以用光照射它，本质上使它的行为方式与它仍然衬在一个-的背面相同。
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
healthy, alive person's eye.
健康、有活力的人的眼睛。
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
That is the beauty of these experiments.
这就是这些实验的美妙之处。
So because we can keep the retina alive and happy, and because the retinal ganglion cells, the cells that are the ones that message the visual information to the brain, are on the surface, we can put them right next to the electrodes, and we can record their electrical activity.
因为我们可以让视网膜保持活跃和快乐，并且因为视网膜神经节细胞（向大脑传递视觉信息的细胞）位于表面，所以我们可以将它们放在电极旁边，我们可以记录它们的电活动。
In other words, we record the signal that those cells would have sent to the brain if they were still in the living person.
换句话说，我们记录了这些细胞如果还在活人体内就会发送到大脑的信号。
And at the same time, as you said, we can focus an image that we create on a computer display onto the retina.
同时，正如您所说，我们可以将在计算机显示器上创建的图像聚焦到视网膜上。
So we're treating the retina, if you will, as a little electronic circuit, which it almost is, honestly, delivering light to the photoreceptor cells so that they are electrically excited, and then recording the electrical activity that the retina is sending out, if you will.
因此，如果你愿意的话，我们将视网膜视为一个小电子电路，老实说，它几乎就是将光传递给感光细胞，使它们受到电激发，然后记录视网膜发出的电活动（如果你愿意的话）。
That allows us to study how the retina works normally.
这使我们能够研究视网膜如何正常工作。
What we also do with that same electrical apparatus is turn around and pass current through those electrodes in order to see if we can activate those ganglion cells directly with no light, just electrodes.
我们还用相同的电气设备做的就是转动并让电流通过这些电极，以便看看我们是否可以在没有光的情况下仅用电极直接激活这些神经节细胞。
Why do we do that?
我们为什么要这么做？
We do that because it allows us to design future methods of restoring vision by electrical stimulation of the retina, which we'll probably talk about in a few minutes.
我们这样做是因为它使我们能够设计未来通过电刺激视网膜来恢复视力的方法，我们可能会在几分钟内讨论这一点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Let's take this moment to talk a little bit about cell types.
让我们借此机会谈谈细胞类型。
So you mentioned there are about 20 different types of these retinal ganglion cells, what we may refer to in brief as RGCs.
您提到大约有 20 种不同类型的视网膜神经节细胞，我们可以简称为 RGC。
So retinal ganglion cells, RGC, same thing.
视网膜神经节细胞，RGC，同样的东西。
And as you mentioned, these cover the entire retina so that if each cell type is extracting a different set of features from the visual world, motion, color, specific colors, et cetera, that essentially no location in the world around us fails to be represented by these cells.
正如您所提到的，这些细胞覆盖了整个视网膜，因此，如果每种细胞类型从视觉世界、运动、颜色、特定颜色等中提取一组不同的特征，那么基本上我们周围世界中的任何位置都不能被这些细胞所代表。
Put differently, these cells are looking everywhere.
换句话说，这些细胞无处不在。
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
Each cell type is looking everywhere.
每种细胞类型都在到处寻找。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Each cell type is looking everywhere, so that if movement occurs in any region of our visual world, we are in a position to detect it.
每种细胞类型都会四处寻找，因此，如果我们视觉世界的任何区域发生运动，我们就能够检测到它。
But maybe we could talk a little bit about cell types.
但也许我们可以谈谈细胞类型。
Cell types is such an important theme in the field of neuroscience and indeed in all of biology, but it's actually not something we have talked about very much on this podcast before, either in solo episodes or in guest episodes.
细胞类型是神经科学领域乃至整个生物学领域的一个重要主题，但实际上我们之前在这个播客中并没有过多讨论过它，无论是在单独节目中还是在客座节目中。
I don't have any specific reason for that.
我对此没有任何具体原因。
We've talked about brain areas, prefrontal cortex, basal ganglia, anterior midcingulate cortex, and on and on.
我们已经讨论过大脑区域、前额皮质、基底神经节、前扣带回皮质等等。
We've talked about neural circuits.
我们已经讨论过神经回路。
But we've never really talked about cell types.
但我们从未真正讨论过细胞类型。
So the ganglion cells-
所以神经节细胞——
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
Brother, you let me down.
兄弟，你让我失望了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Huh?
啊？
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
No talking about cell types.
不谈论细胞类型。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, but that's why you're here.
好吧，但这就是你来这里的原因。
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
That's why I'm here.
这就是我在这里的原因。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's why you're here.
这就是你在这里的原因。
Tell us about cell types.
告诉我们有关细胞类型的信息。
How do you figure out if you have a cell type?
如何判断自己是否有某种细胞类型？
How do you know if it's a cell type?
你怎么知道它是否是一种细胞类型？
Or is it the shape?
或者是形状？
Is it how it responds?
它是这样回应的吗？
How do you know if you have a cell type?
你怎么知道你是否有某种细胞类型？
What's this about?
这是关于什么的？
And I want to just put in the back of this question, or rather in the back of people's minds, that this issue of cell types is not just an issue pertinent to the retina.
我想在这个问题的背后，或者更确切地说，在人们的脑海中，细胞类型的问题不仅仅是与视网膜有关的问题。
This is an issue that is critical to understanding how the brain works.
这是一个对于理解大脑如何工作至关重要的问题。
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's critical to understanding consciousness.
这对于理解意识至关重要。
I know a lot of people are like, "What is consciousness?" Right?
我知道很多人都会问“什么是意识？”正确的？
We're not going there just yet.
我们暂时还不会去那里。
But what are cell types?
但什么是细胞类型呢？
How do you determine if you have a cell type, and why is this so important to understanding how the brain works?
如何确定自己是否具有某种细胞类型？为什么这对于理解大脑的工作原理如此重要？
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
Yeah.
是的。
As you said, as far as we understand, every single brain circuit is full of very distinct cell types.
正如你所说，据我们所知，每个大脑回路都充满了非常不同的细胞类型。
And those cell types are distinguished by their genetic expression, their shapes and sizes, which other cells they do contact and which cells they don't contact, where they send their information to in other parts of the brain, and what they represent.
这些细胞类型的区别在于它们的基因表达、它们的形状和大小、它们接触的其他细胞和它们不接触的其他细胞、它们将信息发送到大脑其他部分的位置以及它们代表什么。
And as far as we know, this is true throughout the brain.
据我们所知，整个大脑都是如此。
And it's true in the retina, the different ganglion cell types, retinal ganglion cell types, about 20 of them, each of which is looking at the whole visual scene, extracts different stuff.
在视网膜中也是如此，不同的神经节细胞类型，视网膜神经节细胞类型，大约有 20 种，每种细胞都在观察整个视觉场景，提取不同的东西。
This cell type one extracts one thing, cell type two extracts something else, but they all represent the entire visual scene.
这种细胞类型一提取一种东西，细胞类型二提取另一种东西，但它们都代表整个视觉场景。
But those cell types we know from lots of beautiful work, work that you're closely connected to and some of which you've done.
但是我们从许多精彩的工作中了解到这些细胞类型，这些工作与您密切相关，并且您已经完成了其中一些工作。
Those cell types have different morphology, different shapes and sizes, different patterns of gene expression, different targets in the brain.
这些细胞类型具有不同的形态、不同的形状和大小、不同的基因表达模式以及大脑中的不同目标。
They send their outputs to different places in the brain.
他们将输出发送到大脑的不同位置。
So really, to study the retina without understanding cell types, you're lost right away.
所以说真的，在不了解细胞类型的情况下研究视网膜，你很快就会迷失方向。
You have to know what's going on with the cell types, otherwise you can't make sense of this retinal signal.
你必须知道细胞类型发生了什么，否则你无法理解这种视网膜信号。
We identify them in two ways, and they're for different purposes.
我们以两种方式识别它们，它们有不同的目的。
The basic way we identify the different cell types is their function, because we study their function.
我们识别不同细胞类型的基本方法是它们的功能，因为我们研究它们的功能。
We study how they respond to light images, and we can clearly separate them out.
我们研究它们对光图像的反应，并且可以清楚地将它们区分开来。
And in fact, it's a simple thing to say, but it's really true.
而事实上，这句话说起来很简单，但却是千真万确的。
Our 512-electrode array technology, which you've seen in our lab and stuff that we developed with collaborators about 20 years ago, was crucial for this.
我们的 512 电极阵列技术（您已经在我们的实验室中看到过）以及大约 20 年前我们与合作者开发的技术对此至关重要。
Because with that 512-electrode technology, we could see many cells of each type, and we could clearly parse them apart from one another.
因为利用 512 电极技术，我们可以看到每种类型的许多细胞，并且可以清楚地将它们彼此分开。
Whereas previous studies working on one cell at a time had great difficulty doing that.
而之前的研究一次只针对一个细胞进行这项工作却非常困难。
So with our technology, with 512 electrodes, we record hundreds of cells simultaneously.
因此，利用我们的技术，通过 512 个电极，我们可以同时记录数百个细胞。
We can say, "Oh, there's 20 of these, there are 50 of those, there's 26 of those, and here they are," and we can just set them in different bins and say, "Okay.
我们可以说，“哦，有 20 个，有 50 个，有 26 个，它们就在这里，”我们可以将它们放在不同的垃圾箱中，然后说，“好吧。
This is what's present in this retina," just what the information is they're extracting.
这就是视网膜中存在的内容，”这正是他们正在提取的信息。
There's another purpose, again, referring forward to the neuroengineering aspect.
还有另一个目的，再次涉及神经工程方面。
We need to identify the cell types, not just based on what visual information they carry, but based on their electrical features, electrical properties of the cells.
我们需要识别细胞类型，不仅仅是基于它们携带的视觉信息，而是基于它们的电学特征、细胞的电学特性。
Cells, as you know, neurons are electrical cells.
细胞，如你所知，神经元是电细胞。
They fundamentally receive and transmit electrical information, and the way that they do that has a distinctive electrical signature.
它们从根本上接收和传输电信息，并且它们的接收和传输方式具有独特的电信号。
That turns out to be super important for developing devices to restore vision.
事实证明，这对于开发恢复视力的设备非常重要。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Could you explain how you determine what a given cell type does, its electrical properties?
您能解释一下如何确定给定细胞类型的功能及其电特性吗？
Let's just draw a mental image for people.
让我们为人们画一个心理形象吧。
The retina's taken out of this deceased individual, put down on this bed of nails of electrodes.
死者的视网膜被取出，放在电极钉床上。
Those electrodes can detect electrical signals within the ganglion cells.
这些电极可以检测神经节细胞内的电信号。
You are able to shine light onto the retina and see how the retinal ganglion cells respond, meaning what electrical signals they would transmit to the brain if they were still connected to a brain.
您可以将光照射到视网膜上，观察视网膜神经节细胞如何反应，这意味着如果它们仍然与大脑相连，它们会向大脑传输什么电信号。
They're not connected to a brain in the experiment.
在实验中它们没有连接到大脑。
They're sitting there-
他们坐在那里——
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
But they're trying.
但他们正在努力。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But they're trying.
但他们正在努力。
I could imagine playing those cells a movie of, I don't know, a checkerboard, where every square on the checkerboard goes from white to black to gray.
我可以想象将这些单元格播放成一部（我不知道）棋盘的电影，棋盘上的每个方块都从白色到黑色到灰色。
We could do that.
我们可以做到这一点。
I could play a cartoon.
我可以播放动画片。
I could show it this year's Academy Award winner for Best Picture.
我可以展示今年奥斯卡最佳影片奖得主。
But how do you decide what to show the retina?
但如何决定向视网膜显示什么内容呢？
This is a human being's retina, after all.
毕竟这是人类的视网膜。
Presumably, it looked at things that are relevant to human beings until that person died.
据推测，它研究的是与人类相关的事物，直到那个人去世为止。
But how do you determine cell-type electrical signals if you don't know what specific things to show it?
但是，如果您不知道要显示哪些具体内容，如何确定细胞类型的电信号呢？
You're going to show it, I don't know, Disney movies?
我不知道你会放映迪士尼电影吗？
What do you show it?
你给它展示什么？
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
So what we show now reflects the fact that we've built up a lot of information, and our work stands on the shoulders of many scientists who have studied the retina for decades to figure out what different cell types respond to.
因此，我们现在展示的内容反映了这样一个事实：我们已经积累了大量信息，而且我们的工作是站在许多科学家的肩膀上，他们研究了视网膜数十年，以找出不同细胞类型的反应。
And we know that certain cell types respond primarily to increments of light, when light gets brighter than it was.
我们知道，当光线变得比以前更亮时，某些细胞类型主要对光线的增加做出反应。
So a change from a certain brightness to a higher brightness, this particular cell type fires.
因此，从一定亮度到更高亮度的变化，这种特定的细胞类型会放电。
Another cell type fires, or sends spikes to the brain, when it gets darker.
当天色变暗时，另一种细胞类型会放电，或向大脑发送尖峰信号。
Some cell types respond primarily to large targets in the visual world.
某些细胞类型主要对视觉世界中的大目标做出反应。
Other cell types respond better to small targets in the visual world.
其他细胞类型对视觉世界中的小目标反应更好。
Some cell types respond to different wavelengths of light that we can identify.
某些细胞类型对我们可以识别的不同波长的光做出反应。
There exist certain cell types that are still poorly understood that respond to movement.
某些细胞类型对运动有反应，但人们对此仍知之甚少。
So we can tailor visual stimuli to types that we kind of already know about because of much preceding research.
因此，我们可以根据之前的大量研究，将视觉刺激定制为我们已经了解的类型。
That's not actually how we do it in our experiments for the most part.
实际上，我们在大部分实验中并不是这样做的。
Instead, we use a very unbiased flickering checkerboard pattern, as it turns out, which is a really efficient, unbiased way to sample many cells simultaneously, so that in a half hour of electrical recording from a retina, we can figure out what all the 512 or so cells are that we're recording and know all of their types.
相反，我们使用一种非常公正的闪烁棋盘图案，事实证明，这是一种非常有效、公正的方法，可以同时对许多细胞进行采样，这样在视网膜的电记录半小时内，我们就可以弄清楚我们正在记录的所有 512 个左右的细胞是什么，并知道它们的所有类型。
And the way we do that is to play essentially random garbage TV snow-type image to the retina for a period of time and determine which bits of brightening or darkening or movement or whatever in that random garbage activated this particular cell by looking at average across the half-hour recording and saying, "Oh, it looks like this cell was always firing when it became bright in this region of the screen.
我们这样做的方法是在视网膜上播放基本上随机的垃圾电视雪型图像一段时间，并通过观察半小时记录的平均值来确定随机垃圾中的哪些变亮或变暗或运动或其他什么激活了这个特定的细胞，然后说：“哦，看起来这个细胞在屏幕的这个区域变亮时总是在放电。
That must be an on cell sensitive to light in this region of the screen," and so on.
那一定是一个对屏幕这个区域的光敏感的电池，”等等。
So we have sophisticated, efficient ways of doing it, but it all comes back to these basic things about what features in the visual world tend to cause a given cell to send a signal to the brain.
因此，我们有复杂、有效的方法来做到这一点，但这一切都回到了这些基本问题，即视觉世界中的哪些特征往往会导致给定细胞向大脑发送信号。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
是的，这很有意义。
So you take essentially what you called random garbage, snow, white, black, and gray pixels on a screen.
因此，您本质上是在屏幕上获取所谓的随机垃圾、雪、白色、黑色和灰色像素。
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The retina views that, and then the cells in the retina will respond every once in a while with an electrical potential.
视网膜看到这一点，然后视网膜中的细胞每隔一段时间就会做出电位反应。
They'll fire, as we say.
正如我们所说，他们会开火。
Spike, it's sometimes called.
斯派克，有时也被称为。
And then you take sort of a forensic approach a bit later.
然后你稍后会采取某种取证方法。
You look back in time and you say, "What was the arrangement of pixels in this random garbage right before this cell fired an electrical potential?"
当你回顾过去时，你会说：“在这个细胞发射电势之前，这个随机垃圾中的像素是如何排列的？”
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
A spike.
一个尖峰。
And then from that, you can reconstruct the preferred stimulus.
然后，您可以据此重建首选刺激。
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You can say, "Oh, this cell and cells around it seem to like motion of things going in a particular direction," for instance.
例如，你可以说，“哦，这个细胞和它周围的细胞似乎喜欢物体朝特定方向运动”。
And how do you know that the cell doesn't also like a bunch of other stuff that you didn't pick up on using this random garbage?
你怎么知道细胞不喜欢你在使用这些随机垃圾时没有发现的一堆其他东西？
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
Yeah, two things.
是的，有两件事。
First, let me just say for the record, we don't record from these cells that signal motion in particular directions.
首先，我郑重声明一下，我们不会记录这些细胞向特定方向发出的运动信号。
They are an elusive cell type that is best understood in rodents and other creatures, and not well understood in the primate, as you know.
正如你所知，它们是一种难以捉摸的细胞类型，在啮齿类动物和其他生物中最容易被理解，但在灵长类动物中却不太被理解。
Although some people are discovering potential cells of that type now, and have recently discovered them.
尽管现在有些人正在发现这种类型的潜在细胞，并且最近才发现它们。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay, so let's say cells that respond to-
好吧，让我们说细胞有反应-
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
Small bright-
小亮-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Like spots that are red that go from dim red to bright red.
就像红色斑点从暗红色变成亮红色。
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
So we can go through that colored TV snow and pick out the cells that responded to a transition of the kind you described from Darker to lighter or from greener to redder or something like that.
因此，我们可以浏览彩色电视雪花并挑选出对您所描述的从较深到较亮或从较绿到较红或类似的转变做出反应的细胞。
Cells tend to respond to transitions in the visual scene rather than static imagery.
细胞倾向于对视觉场景的转变做出反应，而不是对静态图像做出反应。
And so we can pick that stuff out.
这样我们就可以把这些东西挑出来。
But you ask the question, well, gee, is the TV snow going to capture everything about what these cells are doing?
但你问一个问题，好吧，天哪，电视雪花会捕捉到这些细胞正在做什么的一切吗？
That's a really important question that I want to just mention more.
这是一个非常重要的问题，我想多提一下。
Quite likely not.
很可能不会。
That's a scientific instrument.
那是一个科学仪器。
It's an unbiased way to sample a whole bunch of cells, first cut look at, generally speaking, what are they up to.
这是一种对整堆细胞进行采样的无偏见方法，首先观察一下，一般来说，它们在做什么。
But that doesn't mean we've really captured their role in natural visual perception, because actually, you don't go through the world perceiving visual snow.
但这并不意味着我们真正捕捉到了它们在自然视觉感知中的作用，因为实际上，你不会通过世界感知视觉雪。
You go through the world perceiving objects and meals and mates and targets and all these things, right?
你走遍世界，感知物体、食物、伴侣、目标以及所有这些东西，对吗？
So the study of how the retina responds to more naturalistic visual stimuli, in my lab and in many other labs around the world, is really getting off the ground now.
因此，在我的实验室和世界各地的许多其他实验室中，关于视网膜如何响应更自然的视觉刺激的研究现在确实取得了进展。
And I would say we have limited understanding.
我想说我们的理解有限。
I would say we know that our simple laboratory experiments with the TV snow don't capture the whole story.
我想说的是，我们知道我们对电视雪进行的简单实验室实验并不能说明整个故事。
There's more.
还有更多。
There are about 20 different cell types in the retina.
视网膜中有大约 20 种不同的细胞类型。
We have basic characterizations of seven of them, if you count a certain way.
如果你以某种方式计算的话，我们有其中七个的基本特征。
We know that there are another 15 or so lurking right behind the curtain that we've started to sample.
我们知道，我们已经开始采样的幕后还潜藏着另外 15 个左右的样本。
We don't know what naturalistic targets they respond to in the visual life of the animal.
我们不知道它们在动物的视觉生活中对什么自然目标做出反应。
That's work that's underway.
这项工作正在进行中。
Exciting, interesting work because we know that they've got to be there for something.
这是令人兴奋、有趣的工作，因为我们知道他们必须为某些事情而存在。
One way to think of it, I'm pretty sure you think of it this way too, is that the retina is a highly evolved organ with a lot of evolutionary pressure for it to be efficient, to have a small optic nerve sending to the brain.
一种思考方式，我很确定你也这么想，是视网膜是一个高度进化的器官，它面临着很大的进化压力，它需要高效，有一个小的视神经发送到大脑。
It's probably the case that there's no accidental stuff sitting around in the retina that's vestigial and sending information to the brain.
可能的情况是，视网膜中没有偶然的东西残留下来并向大脑发送信息。
It's probably the case that those signals are all doing something important for our visual behavior, for our well-being, for our sleep, all sorts of stuff.
情况可能是这样的，这些信号都对我们的视觉行为、我们的健康、我们的睡眠以及各种各样的事情发挥着重要作用。
And the field is still trying to figure that out.
该领域仍在试图解决这个问题。
These are the big mysteries, I think, in terms of the retina.
我认为这些是视网膜方面的大谜团。
What are those signals exactly in all those different cell types?
在所有这些不同的细胞类型中，这些信号到底是什么？
What different behaviors and aspects of our life do they control?
它们控制着我们生活的哪些不同行为和方面？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What is the wildest cell type you've ever encountered?
您遇到过的最疯狂的细胞类型是什么？
What did it do?
它做了什么？
What did it respond to?
它回应了什么？
That's what I mean when I say wildest.
这就是我说最狂野的意思。
It cells retinal ganglion cells that respond to increasingly red portions of the visual scene or decreasingly green portions of the visual scene.
它的视网膜神经节细胞对视觉场景的红色部分逐渐增加或视觉场景的绿色部分逐渐减少做出反应。
Okay, cool.
好吧，酷。
That seems cool.
看起来很酷。
Around the time of Christmas, that's useful, and it's useful on other days of the year as well.
在圣诞节前后，这很有用，在一年中的其他日子也很有用。
But given that the retina is indeed the best understood piece of the brain, and given that you have 20 cell types, 20 isn't 20 million.
但考虑到视网膜确实是我们最了解的大脑部分，并且考虑到有 20 种细胞类型，20 种细胞并不等于 2000 万种。
It seems tractable.
看起来很容易处理。
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You probably get understanding it in its entirety, or understanding them in their entirety, excuse me.
你可能会完全理解它，或者完全理解它们，对不起。
One would like to know what stuff are we paying attention to at the level of the retina?
人们想知道我们在视网膜层面关注什么？
Are there spiral cells that spiral stuff in the environment?
环境中是否存在使物质旋转的螺旋细胞？
Are there cells that like emojis?
是否存在喜欢表情符号的细胞？
What's going on in there?
里面发生了什么事？
You spend a lot of time doing this.
你花了很多时间来做这件事。
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
We do.
我们做到了。
We spend a lot of time doing this.
我们花了很多时间来做这件事。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
After all, you give up two nights sleep, which is kind of incredible, by the way.
毕竟，你放弃了两个晚上的睡眠，顺便说一句，这有点令人难以置信。
I'll just take a moment here and just say, for a guy that's been doing this for this long with these sleepless nights, you look pretty good.
我只想在这里花一点时间说，对于一个在这些不眠之夜一直这样做了这么长时间的人来说，你看起来相当不错。
You look pretty rested.
你看起来很休息。
You know?
你知道？
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
I go home before the graduate students do.
我比研究生们先回家。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, they stay up.
哦，他们熬夜了。
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
They stay up.
他们熬夜。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You used to stay up.
你曾经熬夜。
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
I used to stay up until my mid-40s.
我曾经熬夜到40多岁。
I was in there doing the all-nighter type things.
我在那里做通宵之类的事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Got it.
明白了。
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
And maybe you can help me figure out my sleep patterns better so I can do-
也许你可以帮助我更好地了解我的睡眠模式，这样我就可以-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, we can talk about that this episode.
是的，我们可以在这一集讨论这个问题。
We can talk about how to pull all-nighters and still survive.
我们可以讨论如何熬夜并仍然生存。
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Done plenty of those.
做了很多这些。
But yeah, lots at stake here.
但是，是的，这里有很多利害关系。
There's a human retina, meaning a human gave up their eyeballs for this experiment after they died, of course.
当然，有人类的视网膜，这意味着人类在死后放弃了眼球来进行这项实验。
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You've got many people on this.
你有很多人在这方面。
These sorts of experiments are very expensive.
这类实验非常昂贵。
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
A lot of fancy equipment, a lot of salaries to try and figure this stuff out.
很多花哨的设备，很多薪水来尝试解决这个问题。
This is the chief mission of the National Eye Institute.
这是国家眼科研究所的主要使命。
There's a lot of tax dollars.
有很多税钱。
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This is, in my opinion, as important as the space program, probably more important, in my opinion, restoring vision to the blind-
在我看来，这与太空计划一样重要，在我看来，可能更重要的是恢复盲人的视力——
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
obviously.
显然。
So what are you finding in there?
那么你在那里发现了什么？
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
Yep, and we have the privilege of being on the front lines of that, funded by the National Eye Institute and other institutions to be out there figuring out what's going on in this human retina.
是的，我们有幸站在这方面的最前线，在国家眼科研究所和其他机构的资助下，我们能够弄清楚人类视网膜中发生了什么。
I'm with you on that.
我同意你的观点。
So I'll tell you how we go about it these days.
所以我会告诉你这些天我们是如何做的。
There are about seven cell types that we understand pretty well what they're doing.
我们非常了解大约七种细胞类型的作用。
They're not complicated.
它们并不复杂。
They just have different properties, color, size, this kind of thing, temporal properties, their timing of their signals.
它们只是有不同的属性，颜色，大小，时间属性，信号的时间。
And those seven cell types we understand pretty well, but we're trying to really nail down the details.
我们对这七种细胞类型了解得非常清楚，但我们正在努力真正确定细节。
Why?
为什么？
Because of neuroengineering for vision restoration.
因为神经工程可以恢复视力。
Then there's another, I'm going to say, 15 or so.
然后还有一个，我想说，大约有 15 个。
And the anatomists, the people who study the shapes and sizes of the cells, have long known that there were more cell types lurking in the retinal circuitry, but their function has not been known.
解剖学家，即研究细胞形状和大小的人，很早就知道视网膜回路中潜伏着更多的细胞类型，但它们的功能尚不清楚。
And because we didn't have many recordings from them, we didn't have electrical recordings in response to light that would tell us what they naturally do.
因为我们没有太多它们的记录，所以我们没有对光做出反应的电子记录来告诉我们它们自然会做什么。
We've actually had a breakthrough in the last few years led by a senior researcher in my lab named Alexandra Kling, who has figured out that there's another 15 or so cell types lurking in those recordings that if we look more carefully, they're there.
事实上，在过去几年里，我们在实验室一位名叫 Alexandra Kling 的高级研究员的带领下取得了突破，她发现这些记录中还潜藏着另外 15 种左右的细胞类型，如果我们仔细观察，就会发现它们就在那里。
And they have crazy properties.
他们拥有疯狂的特性。
And so the crazy properties I can tell you about have to do with the spatial region of the visual world that they respond to.
因此，我可以告诉你的疯狂特性与它们响应的视觉世界的空间区域有关。
The well-known cell types that you know and I know from the textbooks Kind of respond to a circular spot in the visual world.
你和我从教科书上知道的众所周知的细胞类型有点对视觉世界中的圆形点做出反应。
If there's light in this little circular area, they'll fire a spike.
如果这个小圆形区域有光，它们就会发射尖刺。
If there's no light there, they don't care.
如果那里没有光，他们也不在乎。
Well, okay, some cells it's not quite circular.
好吧，有些细胞并不完全是圆形的。
Some cells respond to the light that's there and the difference from the light that's around it.
有些细胞会对那里的光以及与周围光的差异做出反应。
So if it's brighter than the light that's nearby, then you get a big response.
因此，如果它比附近的光更亮，那么您就会得到很大的响应。
The new cell types are more puzzling than that.
新的细胞类型比这更令人费解。
Some of them respond to three or four blobs in the visual world.
其中一些对视觉世界中的三四个斑点做出反应。
That's kind of strange, unexpected.
这有点奇怪，出乎意料。
Definitely unexpected based on the textbooks.
根据教科书绝对出乎意料。
And the newest ones are weirder yet.
而最新的则更奇怪。
Some of them, their visual response profiles, that is the region of the visual world that they are sensitive to light in, almost has a spidery shape, almost like the dendrites of a cell, like the processes of a cell.
其中一些，它们的视觉反应轮廓，即它们对光敏感的视觉世界区域，几乎具有蜘蛛状的形状，几乎像细胞的树突，像细胞的突起。
And some of them have blobby light sensitivity.
其中一些具有斑点光敏感性。
They're sensitive to light increments here and decrements there, and increments here and decrements there, and some blue light over here and blue light over here.
它们对这里的光增量和那里的减量、这里的增量和那里的减量以及这里的一些蓝光和这里的蓝光敏感。
We don't understand these cells.
我们不了解这些细胞。
To be clear, the seven that we understand reasonably well and are trying to just pin down and really nail for vision restoration, the sort of first cut at cell type specific vision restoration, those ones don't have these weird properties.
需要明确的是，我们对这七个了解得相当清楚，并且正在努力确定并真正确定视力恢复，即细胞类型特定视力恢复的第一步，这些细胞不具有这些奇怪的特性。
They're a little simpler to understand.
它们更容易理解一些。
But we're just working out all the details of the timing of the responses and all that.
但我们只是在制定回复时间等所有细节。
These new ones, we don't know what's going on with them.
这些新人，我们不知道他们发生了什么。
So we're doing experiments.
所以我们正在做实验。
Those seven cell types constitute maybe 70% of all the neurons that send visual information from the eye to the brain.
这七种细胞类型可能占所有从眼睛向大脑发送视觉信息的神经元的 70%。
So we think it's a really solid target for vision restoration to work with the simple ones.
因此，我们认为与简单的目标一起工作是视力恢复的一个非常可靠的目标。
And so when I say that I think that the retina is the best understood circuit in the nervous system, I'm talking about those seven cell types, which we know a lot about what they do.
因此，当我说我认为视网膜是神经系统中最容易理解的回路时，我指的是这七种细胞类型，我们对它们的作用了解很多。
We really do know a lot.
我们确实知道很多。
It's not done, but we know a lot.
虽然还没有完成，但我们已经知道很多了。
I'm not talking about the other 15 cell types, which are a minority of the population, but seem to be doing very strange and surprising things that are yet to be determined.
我不是在谈论其他 15 种细胞类型，它们只占细胞总数的少数，但它们似乎正在做一些非常奇怪和令人惊讶的事情，这些事情尚未确定。
So it's a mix.
所以这是一个混合体。
We know some really good stuff, and then there's really some deep mysteries out there about these other cell types.
我们知道一些非常好的东西，而且关于这些其他细胞类型确实存在一些深奥的谜团。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So we've been talking a lot about how to understand the signals that the retina is sending the brain, and I know your lab has done incredible work in this arena and figured out a number of the different signals as you described some of the features that the different cell types are extracting just a moment ago, these blobs of different colors, et cetera.
因此，我们一直在讨论如何理解视网膜向大脑发送的信号，我知道你们的实验室在这个领域做了令人难以置信的工作，并找出了许多不同的信号，正如您刚才描述的不同细胞类型提取的一些特征，这些不同颜色的斑点等等。
What good is this to the everyday person, right?
这对于常人来说有什么好处呢？
In addition to wanting to understand how we see, what sorts of medical applications can this provide in terms of potentially restoring vision to the blind?
除了想要了解我们如何看到之外，这在潜在恢复盲人视力方面还能提供哪些医疗应用？
But perhaps even larger theme is this notion of neuroengineering, right?
但也许更大的主题是神经工程的概念，对吧？
Taking this information and creating devices that can help our nervous system function better, maybe even function at supraphysiological levels.
利用这些信息并创建可以帮助我们的神经系统更好地发挥作用的设备，甚至可以在超生理水平上发挥作用。
I know there's a lot of interest in this these days, in part due to Neuralink, right?
我知道最近人们对此很感兴趣，部分原因是 Neuralink，对吗？
Because Elon's out there front-facing, very vocal about his vision of the, no pun intended, of chips being implanted in people's brains that would allow them to be in conversation with 100 people at the same time just by hearing those voices in the head, maybe filtering things out so it doesn't sound like a clamor of 100 different voices.
因为埃隆在前面非常直言不讳地表达了他的愿景，没有双关语，芯片被植入人们的大脑中，使他们能够通过听到大脑中的声音同时与 100 个人进行对话，也许可以过滤掉一些东西，这样听起来就不会像是 100 种不同声音的喧嚣。
Perhaps giving people super memory.
也许给人超强的记忆力。
I mean, sky's the limit.
我的意思是，天空才是极限。
No one really knows where this is all headed.
没有人真正知道这一切将走向何方。
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You're working in what we call a very constrained system, where it has specific properties that you're trying to understand, and once you understand those, you can start to think about real applications of what's possible.
您正在我们所说的非常受限的系统中工作，该系统具有您试图理解的特定属性，一旦您理解了这些属性，您就可以开始考虑可能的实际应用。
Like could you create a visual system that can extract more color features from the world that no other human can see?
就像你能创建一个视觉系统，可以从世界中提取更多其他人看不到的颜色特征吗？
Can you restore pattern vision to somebody who is essentially blind and dependent on a cane or a dog or, God forbid, can't even leave their house because they can't see anything at all?
你能否让那些本质上失明、依赖拐杖或狗生活的人恢复模式视觉，或者，上帝保佑，因为他们根本看不到任何东西而甚至无法离开自己的房子？
Where is this headed?
这是要去哪里？
What is the information useful for?
这些信息有什么用？
And perhaps we should frame that first within the medical rehabilitative context of repairing or restoring vision, rather, and then get into the more kind of sci-fi type neuroengineering stuff.
也许我们应该首先在修复或恢复视力的医疗康复背景下构建这个框架，然后再进入更多科幻类型的神经工程内容。
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
Yeah, this really is my passion these days, turning that corner.
是的，这确实是我这些天的热情所在，扭转了这个困境。
Continuing to figure out the mysteries in the retina, but also saying, "Wait a second, we actually know quite a lot about this.
继续弄清楚视网膜的奥秘，同时也说：“等一下，我们实际上对此了解得很多。
Shouldn't this be the first place that we can solve problems like restoring vision, restoring function, or augmenting our function?" I think it should be.
这不应该是我们解决诸如恢复视力、恢复功能或增强功能等问题的第一个地方吗？”我认为应该如此。
The concept of how to do this is straightforward and not invented by us in any way, and that is the following.
如何做到这一点的概念很简单，并且不是我们以任何方式发明的，如下所示。
One of the major sources of blindness in the Western world is loss of the photoreceptor cells that capture light.
西方世界失明的主要原因之一是捕捉光线的感光细胞的丧失。
Macular degeneration and retinitis pigmentosa are two well-known ailments that give rise to vision loss.
黄斑变性和色素性视网膜炎是两种导致视力丧失的众所周知的疾病。
And the vision loss is because the cells that capture light in the first place, that we talked about earlier, die off.
视力丧失是因为我们之前讨论过的首先捕获光的细胞死亡。
So you're no longer sensitive to light, and then you're blind.
所以你对光不再敏感，然后你就失明了。
The concept is that you may be able to bypass those early sections of the retina that capture the light and process the signals, and instead build an electronic implant that connects up directly to the retinal ganglion cells.
这个概念是，你也许能够绕过视网膜捕捉光和处理信号的早期部分，而是构建一个直接连接到视网膜神经节细胞的电子植入物。
And this electronic implant would do the following.
这个电子植入物将执行以下操作。
It would capture the light using a camera, which is relatively easy.
它会使用相机捕捉光线，这相对容易。
It would process the visual information in a manner similar to the way that the retina normally does, as similar as possible.
它会以与视网膜正常情况类似的方式处理视觉信息，并尽可能相似。
And then it would electrically activate the retinal ganglion cells by passing current and causing the ganglion cells to fire spikes and send those spikes to the brain.
然后，它会通过电流来电激活视网膜神经节细胞，使神经节细胞发射尖峰并将这些尖峰发送到大脑。
And if we do this really well, we can essentially replace those first two layers of the retina and piggyback onto the third layer and say, "Okay, we're just jumping right into that third layer.
如果我们做得很好，我们基本上可以替换视网膜的前两层并搭载到第三层上，然后说：“好吧，我们只是直接跳到第三层。
We're going to force those ganglion cells to send reasonable visual signals to the brain, and then the brain is going to think it got a natural visual signal and proceed accordingly." That's the concept This is not our idea.
我们将迫使这些神经节细胞向大脑发送合理的视觉信号，然后大脑就会认为它收到了自然的视觉信号并相应地进行。”这就是概念，这不是我们的想法。
People have had this concept for decades, and some people have even started to make it work in human patients.
人们已经有了这个概念几十年了，有些人甚至开始让它在人类患者身上发挥作用。
And what I mean by that is implanting electrodes on the retina, stimulating and causing people who have been profoundly blind for decades to see visual sensation, blobs and streaks of light in their visual world that are reproducible.
我的意思是在视网膜上植入电极，刺激并导致几十年来严重失明的人们在他们的视觉世界中看到可再现的视觉感觉、斑点和光条纹。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So that's happening now.
所以现在就发生了这种情况。
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
That's happened.
事情就这样发生了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
People who were at once blind-
那些立刻失明的人——
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
are able to see objects.
能够看到物体。
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
Are able to see crude blobs and flashes of light.
能够看到粗糙的斑点和闪光。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In ways that allow them to navigate their world better.
让他们更好地驾驭自己的世界。
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
A little bit.
一点点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Avoid a coffee table.
避免使用咖啡桌。
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
Maybe, or at least see a bright window and a dark wall and be able to point to that bright window or the bright doorway and a dark wall, something like that.
也许，或者至少看到一扇明亮的窗户和一堵黑暗的墙壁，并能够指出那扇明亮的窗户或明亮的门口和一堵黑暗的墙壁，类似的东西。
So it's a glass half full, half empty story that I'd like to turn attention to in this conversation because I think it's very exciting.
所以这是一个半满半空的故事，我想在这次谈话中把注意力转向它，因为我认为它非常令人兴奋。
Yes, you can see stuff by artificially electrically stimulating the ganglion cells, and you can see stuff that actually helps you interact with your world a tiny little bit.
是的，你可以通过人工电刺激神经节细胞来看到东西，并且你可以看到实际上可以帮助你与世界互动的东西。
So great, that's the glass half full.
太棒了，杯子已经满了一半。
The glass half empty is it's nothing remotely resembling what we understand as naturalistic vision, where we see fine spatial detail and color and objects and can navigate complex environments and all that stuff.
半空的玻璃与我们所理解的自然视觉完全不同，在自然视觉中我们可以看到精细的空间细节、颜色和物体，并且可以导航复杂的环境和所有这些东西。
No chance.
没有机会。
You can't do anything remotely like that.
你不能像那样远程做任何事情。
You can see that there's a bright doorway over that way and turn toward it, which is a helpful step in your human experience, but there's a long way to go.
你可以看到那条路有一个明亮的门口，然后转向它，这对你的人类经验来说是有益的一步，但还有很长的路要走。
So the question is why does this existing technology fail to give us high-quality vision?
那么问题是，为什么现有的技术无法给我们带来高质量的视觉呢？
What's needed to give us high-quality vision?
为我们提供高质量的视觉需要什么？
And this is the piece I'm really passionate about.
这是我真正热爱的作品。
It turns out that the devices that have been implanted in humans so far by pioneering bioengineers who did really hard stuff were fairly simple devices that treated the retina as if it's a camera, that is just a grid of pixels.
事实证明，迄今为止，由先驱生物工程师植入人类体内的设备相当简单，它们将视网膜视为相机，只是一个像素网格。
And they put a grid of electrodes down there, and they stimulated it according to the pixels in the visual world and thought, "Well, hopefully, that will cause the retina to do the right thing and send a nice piece of visual information to the brain and initiate vision." Unfortunately, they left the science on the table, and this is actually what I'm dedicating the next phase of my career to, bringing the science that we know, that we talked about to the table for vision engineering.
他们在那里放了一个电极网格，根据视觉世界中的像素刺激它，并认为，“好吧，希望这将使视网膜做正确的事情，并向大脑发送一条很好的视觉信息并启动视觉。”不幸的是，他们把科学留在了桌面上，这实际上是我职业生涯下一阶段的目标，将我们所知道的、我们谈论过的科学带到视觉工程的桌面上。
And in particular, the fact that there really are 20 or so distinct cell types, and they send different types of visual information to the different targets in the brain.
特别是，事实上确实有 20 种左右不同的细胞类型，它们向大脑中的不同目标发送不同类型的视觉信息。
I like to think of them a little bit as an orchestra playing a symphony.
我喜欢把他们想象成一个演奏交响乐的管弦乐队。
Each different cell type has its particular score.
每种不同的细胞类型都有其特定的分数。
The violins do one thing.
小提琴只做一件事。
The oboes do something else.
双簧管还有别的事情。
It's a very organized signal coming out of the retina, presenting to the brain this complex pattern of electrical activity that the brain assembles into our visual experience.
这是从视网膜发出的非常有组织的信号，向大脑呈现这种复杂的电活动模式，大脑将其组装成我们的视觉体验。
Well, current retinal implants, unfortunately, are too crude to do anything like that.
不幸的是，目前的视网膜植入物还太粗糙，无法做这样的事情。
The conductor has just scattered the sheet music everywhere, and people are playing whatever.
指挥刚刚把乐谱撒得到处都是，人们就随便弹奏。
It's cacophony.
这是不和谐的声音。
Okay?
好的？
You can maybe recognize a tune in there a little bit sometimes, navigate toward a doorway, but you're not going to get the full richness of the experience by ignoring the different cell types.
有时你也许可以认出其中的一首曲子，然后走向门口，但你不会通过忽略不同的细胞类型来获得完整丰富的体验。
And I'm so passionate about this, in part for reasons that a little bit are similar to your reasons for doing this kind of work that you do, which I think is great.
我对此非常热衷，部分原因与您从事此类工作的原因有点相似，我认为这很棒。
Which is, I feel we have a mission to give back as scientists, to take all this stuff we've been talking about because we find it so interesting and cool, and to deliver something to the society that has allowed us to explore these fascinating areas.
也就是说，我觉得我们有一个使命，作为科学家回馈社会，接受我们一直在谈论的所有这些东西，因为我们发现它是如此有趣和酷，并向社会提供一些东西，使我们能够探索这些迷人的领域。
And in our case, in the case of my lab and what we've done, it's to turn around and say, "Wait a second.
就我们的情况而言，就我的实验室以及我们所做的事情而言，就是转身说：“等一下。
We understand that there's these different cell types.
我们知道存在这些不同的细胞类型。
We understand a lot about what they do.
我们非常了解他们的工作。
None of this information appears in current retinal implants.
这些信息都没有出现在当前的视网膜植入物中。
Can't we do better by using the science to restore vision in a way that respects the circuitry of the retina?" That's what we're trying to do.
我们不能通过利用科学以尊重视网膜电路的方式恢复视力来做得更好吗？”这就是我们正在努力做的事情。
And the mismatch is intense.
而且这种不匹配非常严重。
I told you when we were chatting before that nothing that we have learned about the retina since the founding of the National Eye Institute in 1968 is incorporated into the existing retinal implants.
我之前聊天的时候就告诉过你，自1968年国家眼科研究所成立以来我们所学到的关于视网膜的知识都没有被纳入现有的视网膜植入物中。
Nothing.
没有什么。
We've learned a ton about the retina.
我们已经了解了很多关于视网膜的知识。
Your research was funded by the National Eye Institute.
您的研究由国家眼科研究所资助。
My research is funded by National Eye Institute, a fantastic organization that allows us to learn all these things.
我的研究由国家眼科研究所资助，这是一个很棒的组织，让我们能够学习所有这些东西。
How is this showing up in the neuroengineering to restore vision to people?
这在恢复人们视力的神经工程中是如何体现的？
Well, currently, it's not, and so we're trying to do that.
嗯，目前还没有，所以我们正在努力做到这一点。
Now, doing that turns out to be hard, and maybe we'll talk about that.
现在，事实证明这样做很困难，也许我们会讨论一下。
It's a technological feat that's really challenging.
这是一项真正具有挑战性的技术壮举。
You have to build a device that you can implant in a human that can recognize the distinct cell types, see where they are, stimulate them separately from one another, and conduct this orchestra to create a musical score that reasonably closely resembles the natural one.
你必须建造一种可以植入人体的设备，它可以识别不同的细胞类型，查看它们的位置，分别刺激它们，并指挥这个管弦乐队创造出与自然细胞相当相似的乐谱。
That's what we're all about doing.
这就是我们要做的事情。
And as it turns out, and maybe we'll talk about that separately, that mission of being able to restore the patterns of activity that the retina normally creates also has extremely exciting spinoffs in three directions.
事实证明，也许我们会单独讨论这一点，能够恢复视网膜通常产生的活动模式的使命也在三个方向上产生了极其令人兴奋的副产品。
One of them is understanding better how the brain puts the signals together.
其中之一是更好地理解大脑如何将信号组合在一起。
That's research for the brain.
那是针对大脑的研究。
The second one is augmenting vision, creating novel types of visual sensations that weren't possible before, and maybe doing something along the Elon Musk lines of delivering more visual information than was ever possible.
第二个是增强视觉，创造以前不可能的新型视觉感觉，也许可以沿着埃隆·马斯克的路线做一些事情，提供比以往更多的视觉信息。
And third, figuring out how to interface to the brain more broadly.
第三，弄清楚如何更广泛地与大脑交互。
Because as you and I know The structure of the retina is very much representative of the structure of many brain areas.
因为正如你和我所知，视网膜的结构非常能代表许多大脑区域的结构。
And if we're going to figure out how to interface to the visual cortex, we darn well better figure out how to interface to the retina first.
如果我们要弄清楚如何与视觉皮层连接，我们最好先弄清楚如何与视网膜连接。
That's what we're all about doing in my lab these days, is figuring out how to do that well.
这就是我们这些天在实验室所做的事情，就是弄清楚如何做好这一点。
That's a mixed science and engineering effort.
这是科学和工程的混合努力。
We've done about 15 years of basic science on that.
我们对此进行了大约 15 年的基础科学研究。
How do we stimulate cells?
我们如何刺激细胞？
How do we recognize cells?
我们如何识别细胞？
How are we going to build a device that does all this and talks to the cells in this way?
我们如何构建一个能够完成所有这些工作并以这种方式与细胞对话的设备？
And I can go into lots of gory detail about it, but that's what we've been doing the basic research on.
我可以详细讨论它，但这就是我们一直在做的基础研究。
In the last few years, we've worked at Stanford with fantastic engineers from various disciplines, electrical engineers, material scientists, others, to figure out how to put together the pieces and build an implant that can do this in a living human.
在过去的几年里，我们在斯坦福大学与来自不同学科的优秀工程师、电气工程师、材料科学家和其他人合作，找出如何将各个部分组合在一起并构建一个可以在活人身上做到这一点的植入物。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So is the idea to build a robotic retina?
那么这个想法是建造一个机器人视网膜吗？
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
To build essentially an artificial retina that could be put into the eye of a blind person, or even put into the eye of a sighted person that would fundamentally change their ability to see, or in the latter case, enhance their ability to extract things from the visual world that they would otherwise not be able to see.
本质上是构建一个人造视网膜，可以放入盲人的眼睛中，甚至可以放入视力正常的人的眼睛中，从根本上改变他们的视觉能力，或者在后一种情况下，增强他们从视觉世界中提取他们无法看到的东西的能力。
Like seeing twice as far, getting hawk-like resolution of the visual world.
就像看得两倍远，获得视觉世界鹰般的分辨率。
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Which that would be cool.
那会很酷。
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Could be distracting.
可能会分散注意力。
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm not sure I want to see the fine movements of a piece of paper in somebody's notebook from across a cafe as they flutter the pages.
我不确定我是否想在咖啡馆对面看到某人笔记本上的一张纸在纸页上飘动时的精细动作。
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
But you might want to for a moment.
但你可能想暂时这样做。
There might be a moment when you want to.
也许有一天你会想要这样做。
And if you have an electronic device that you can control, that you can dial in to sense different aspects of the visual world by your choice, you might be like, "Yeah, that's pretty cool.
如果你有一个可以控制的电子设备，你可以通过你的选择来感知视觉世界的不同方面，你可能会说，“是的，那太酷了。
I want to be able to do that right now." There's an example I like to give which I think maybe is helpful for interpreting what we're talking about when we say being able to do more things with the optic nerve.
我希望现在就能做到这一点。”我想举一个例子，我认为当我们说能够用视神经做更多事情时，它可能有助于解释我们所谈论的内容。
You gave the example of many voices and stuff.
你举了很多声音和东西的例子。
Here's an example that I like.
这是我喜欢的一个例子。
We know that we can drive down the road and have a phone call hands-free and do that quite safely.
我们知道我们可以开车在路上免提打电话，而且非常安全。
Pretty safely, right?
很安全，对吧？
And why?
为什么？
Because you're tapping in, you've got two types of signals coming into your brain, your visual signal of the cars on the freeway, any one of which could kill you in an instant, so it's important.
因为你正在窃听，你的大脑会收到两种类型的信号，即高速公路上汽车的视觉信号，其中任何一种信号都可能瞬间杀死你，所以它很重要。
And the sound coming into your ears, which carries the voice of your girlfriend, who's telling you something that you're interested in hearing.
声音传入你的耳朵，其中包含你女朋友的声音，她正在告诉你一些你感兴趣的事情。
And these are different parts of the brain processing this information.
这些是大脑处理这些信息的不同部分。
And so you can do both of these things at the same time because there's no interference.
所以你可以同时做这两件事，因为没有干扰。
One part of the brain's working, doing one thing, another part's doing something else, you're good.
大脑的一部分在工作，做一件事，另一部分在做另一件事，你很好。
What you can't do is to read your texts and drive down the freeway at the same time.
你不能做的就是一边阅读短信，一边开车上高速公路。
That's not good.
那不好。
Because now that visual system of yours that needs to be detecting these fast-moving, dangerous objects is being distracted by looking at the text, and you might die, and some other people might die with you.
因为现在你的视觉系统需要检测这些快速移动的危险物体，但由于查看文本而分散了注意力，你可能会死，其他一些人可能会和你一起死。
So-
所以——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I see a lot of people texting and driving.
我看到很多人边开车边发短信。
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
Yeah.
是的。
That's why I like to point out this example, to remind people you can't do it well.
这就是为什么我想指出这个例子，提醒人们你做不好。
It's like-
这就像——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You can't do well.
你不可能做得很好。
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
You're probably talking
你可能正在说
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, it used to be, we'll just take a brief tangent here into this topic.
是的，过去是这样，我们只是简单切入这个主题。
A few years back, there were a lot of news articles, a lot of discussion about texting and driving, a lot of attention to getting people to stop texting and driving.
几年前，有很多新闻文章，很多关于发短信和开车的讨论，很多关注让人们停止发短信和开车。
I've seen a few people pulled over for texting and driving before, but I would say texting and driving is rampant.
我以前见过一些人因为发短信而开车而被拦下来，但我想说的是，边开车边发短信的现象很猖獗。
Reading what's on one's phone-
读取手机上的内容 -
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
while driving is rampant.
而驾驶却很猖獗。
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
All you have to do is be on the freeway here in Los Angeles, look in the car next to you.
您所要做的就是在洛杉矶的高速公路上，看看旁边的车。
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
Yep.
是的。
Look where they're looking.
看看他们在看哪里。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And be going reading and texting while driving.
并在开车时阅读和发短信。
Presumably, when they're doing that, they're just using their peripheral vision to detect any kind of motion.
据推测，当他们这样做时，他们只是利用周边视觉来检测任何类型的运动。
And no doubt this has caused the deaths of many people.
毫无疑问，这导致了许多人的死亡。
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
Yeah.
是的。
Change lanes.
改变车道。
Get away from them.
远离他们。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
And that's just like that other driver.
这就像其他司机一样。
So here's the thing, and I say this a bit tongue in cheek, but it's sort of a real example.
事情就是这样，我这么说有点开玩笑，但这是一个真实的例子。
It may be that if we harness the different cell types in the retina to deliver different visual information to different cell types, like the image of the text on your screen to a certain cell type that you know, the so-called midget cells.
如果我们利用视网膜中的不同细胞类型向不同的细胞类型传递不同的视觉信息，就像屏幕上的文本图像传递给你所知道的某种细胞类型（所谓的侏儒细胞）一样。
Or the motion of the objects in the visual scene, the cars, to a different cell type that you know.
或者视觉场景中物体（汽车）的运动到您所知道的不同细胞类型。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Called midget cells, by the way, folks, because they're very, very small.
顺便说一句，伙计们，它们被称为“侏儒细胞”，因为它们非常非常小。
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
Yes.
是的。
And named by anatomists decades ago.
几十年前由解剖学家命名。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
So we carry that nomenclature forward.
因此，我们继续沿用这一术语。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sure.
当然。
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
And the parasol cells, which are different cells that you can potentially encode the movement of the cars in the parasol cells.
还有遮阳伞单元，它们是不同的单元，您可以在遮阳伞单元中对汽车的运动进行编码。
And if those two systems are operating independently, which we sort of think they may be, from research that you know very well from your extensive studies in vision, maybe we can do those two things safely at the same time.
如果这两个系统是独立运行的，我们认为它们可能是独立运行的，根据你们对视觉的广泛研究所了解的研究，也许我们可以同时安全地做这两件事。
Now, by the way, that's not my research goal, to text and drive at the same time, just to be clear.
顺便说一句，同时发短信和开车并不是我的研究目标，只是澄清一下。
But it's a very tangible, real-world example of if we do really have parallel pathways that can be modulated and controlled independently of one another, this opens the door to streaming all kinds of visual information in parallel into our very high bandwidth visual systems.
但这是一个非常切实的、现实世界的例子，如果我们确实拥有可以相互独立调制和控制的并行路径，这将为将各种视觉信息并行传输到我们的高带宽视觉系统打开一扇大门。
That wasn't possible during evolution because we didn't have control over the cell types.
这在进化过程中是不可能的，因为我们无法控制细胞类型。
So I think of that as the world of visual augmentation, and it starts to get interesting if the different cell types are behaving in an independent way when they transmit visual information to the brain.
所以我认为这是视觉增强的世界，如果不同的细胞类型在将视觉信息传输到大脑时以独立的方式表现，它就会开始变得有趣。
Now, how are we going to figure that out?
现在，我们该如何解决这个问题呢？
Well, we need a device that can stimulate the different cells independently and then study that to see whether people can do this kind of thing, right?
嗯，我们需要一种可以独立刺激不同细胞的设备，然后研究它，看看人们是否可以做这种事情，对吗？
What's that device?
那个装置是什么？
The artificial retina.
人造视网膜。
The same implant I'm telling you about that can restore vision to people because it's an electronic device that can dial up the activity in the different cell types.
我告诉你的同一个植入物可以恢复人们的视力，因为它是一种电子设备，可以调节不同细胞类型的活动。
That same device is what we can use as a research instrument to understand if the different pathways are parallel, if the signals interact with one another, and explore how the brain receives that information.
我们可以将同一设备用作研究工具，以了解不同的通路是否平行、信号是否相互相互作用，并探索大脑如何接收该信息。
And then we can use that to explore, can we augment vision and allow ourselves to have newer visual sensations that we don't even know what that would look like.
然后我们可以用它来探索，我们是否可以增强视力并让自己拥有更新的视觉感觉，而我们甚至不知道那会是什么样子。
We don't even understand what it would look like to us to see those sensations, but it might be able to deliver lots of information to our brain.
我们甚至不知道看到这些感觉会是什么样子，但它可能能够向我们的大脑传递大量信息。
And if we can do all those things Then we can take that same set of tools and engineering technologies into the brain to access different cell types as well.
如果我们能做到所有这些事情，那么我们就可以将同一组工具和工程技术引入大脑，以访问不同的细胞类型。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So to just summarize a little bit of the linear flow here of what you've done.
因此，这里只是总结一下您所做工作的线性流程。
You started off with the understanding that the neural retina is perhaps the best place to try and understand how the brain works because of its arrangement, the cell types, et cetera.
您首先了解到神经视网膜可能是尝试和理解大脑如何工作的最佳位置，因为它的排列、细胞类型等。
You spend a number of decades doing these wild experiments on human retinas and other retinas, recording the different cell types with these high density, what I call bed of nails.
你花了几十年的时间在人类视网膜和其他视网膜上进行这些野生实验，以这些高密度记录不同的细胞类型，我称之为指甲床。
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
Two and a half decades.
两个半世纪了。
Not that old.
没那么老。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Two and a half decades.
两个半世纪了。
It's your robustness that matters, EJ, and you have plenty of it.
重要的是你的稳健性，EJ，你拥有足够的稳健性。
You figured out what the cell types are, so then you gained an understanding of how light is transformed into different types of electrical signals that encode different features in the visual scene.
您弄清楚了细胞类型是什么，然后您就了解了光如何转化为不同类型的电信号，这些信号编码视觉场景中的不同特征。
Then comes the challenge of developing neuroengineering tools to try and stimulate the specific cell types in a way that more or less mimics their normal patterns of activation.
接下来的挑战是开发神经工程工具，尝试以或多或少模仿特定细胞类型正常激活模式的方式刺激它们。
Not activating a huge piece of retina so that the cells that like increases in redness are also being stimulated with the cells that like edges in a way that would create some shmuey, like crazy representation of the outside world.
不激活一大片视网膜，这样喜欢红色增加的细胞也会受到喜欢边缘的细胞的刺激，从而产生一些闷闷不乐的感觉，就像外部世界的疯狂表现一样。
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No. You want the same precision that light stimulation of these cells in the intact human eye provides in this explanted retina, this retina on this bed of nails.
不。您需要与完整人眼中这些细胞的光刺激在移植的视网膜（指甲床上的视网膜）中提供的相同的精度。
But then a device that essentially can mimic what the retina does, and you needed to do all that earlier work, understanding what does the normal retina do, what does the healthy retina do, in order to try and develop this prosthetic device to either restore vision or, because it puts you in the position of being able to stimulate cells however you want, in theory, you could create a situation in a human where the cells that respond to, I don't know, outlines of objects are hyperactive so that the person could effectively see objects in one's environment better than anyone else.
但是，一个基本上可以模仿视网膜功能的设备，你需要做所有早期的工作，了解正常视网膜的作用，健康的视网膜的作用，以便尝试开发这种假体装置来恢复视力，或者，因为它使你能够按照你想要的方式刺激细胞，理论上，你可以在人类中创造一种情况，其中对物体轮廓做出反应的细胞非常活跃，这样人们就可以有效地看到物体一个人的环境比谁都好。
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Could perceive, I know motion is a tricky one, but motion better than anyone else.
可以感知，我知道运动是一件棘手的事情，但运动比任何人都好。
Could see detail in the visual world that no one else could detect.
可以看到视觉世界中其他人无法察觉的细节。
We're not talking about turning people into mantis shrimp, but the analogy works because mantis shrimp can see things that we can't and vice versa.
我们并不是在谈论把人变成螳螂虾，但这个类比是有效的，因为螳螂虾可以看到我们看不到的东西，反之亦然。
And so what you're talking about here is neural augmentation through the use of engineering.
所以你在这里谈论的是通过工程的使用来增强神经。
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
Yep.
是的。
And we often do talk about it as sci-fi because the sci-fi writers have been writing about this for decades.
我们经常把它当作科幻小说来谈论，因为科幻作家几十年来一直在写这个。
It's not sci-fi anymore.
这不再是科幻小说了。
It's straight up sci right now.
现在是直接科学。
We just need to build the instrumentation and start working with those experiments to figure out how to make it work.
我们只需要构建仪器并开始进行这些实验以弄清楚如何使其发挥作用。
I think we have a responsibility to do this because this is the way we take this kind of information, all that's been learned about the visual system by the National Eye Institute since 1968, and all the people that it's funded to do this research, and turn the corner and make a difference for humanity with it.
我认为我们有责任这样做，因为这就是我们获取此类信息的方式，以及国家眼科研究所自 1968 年以来关于视觉系统的所有知识，以及所有受其资助进行这项研究的人，并利用它来扭转局面，为人类带来改变。
And I assume and think that humanity will be leveraging nervous system knowledge to build all sorts of devices that we can interface to the world with.
我假设并认为人类将利用神经系统知识来构建我们可以与世界连接的各种设备。
I don't know Elon Musk, but I think he's right about that, that that's where we're headed.
我不认识埃隆·马斯克，但我认为他是对的，这就是我们的发展方向。
It should be done well.
应该做好。
It's important to do it well.
做好这件事很重要。
We will hopefully be more connected to truth in the world if we're able to build devices that give us better sensations, more acute understanding of what's going on out there, better abilities to make decisions and all that, let alone just see stuff.
如果我们能够制造出能够给我们更好的感觉、更敏锐地理解外面发生的事情、更好的决策能力等等的设备，我们将有望更加接近世界的真相，更不用说仅仅看到东西了。
So that frontier of developing technologies to allow our brains and our visual systems initially and then other parts of our brains to do things better is unbelievably exciting.
因此，开发技术的前沿是让我们的大脑和视觉系统首先让我们的大脑和我们的视觉系统，然后让我们大脑的其他部分做得更好，这是令人难以置信的令人兴奋。
It is sci-fi, but I just want to emphasize, I think it's the responsible way to go to think about how to do that well.
这是科幻小说，但我只是想强调，我认为这是负责任的方式去思考如何做好这一点。
All technologies that we develop can be used for good or for ill, and I'm sure some of your listeners who are a lot of very passionate, thinking people out there thinking about neuroscience and the implications worry, "What does this mean?
我们开发的所有技术都可以用于好事或坏事，我相信你们的一些听众中有很多非常热情、有思想的人在思考神经科学及其影响，他们担心，“这意味着什么？
We're going to be introducing electronic circuits in our brains to do stuff?" Yeah, well, we will.
我们要在大脑中引入电子电路来完成任务？”是的，好吧，我们会的。
It's pretty much clear that humanity will do that.
很明显，人类会这么做。
And so in any technology development, you have to think about, well, how do you do it well?
因此，在任何技术开发中，你都必须思考，如何才能做好？
How do you do it for good?
你如何做到这一点？
There are popular movies right now about technology development, such as understanding the structure of the atom, and that technology development can be used for good or for ill, to blow up cities or to save civilizations.
现在有一些关于技术发展的热门电影，例如了解原子的结构，以及技术发展可以用于好事或坏事，可以炸毁城市或拯救文明。
How's it going to go?
进展如何？
Well, I think as scientists, we're responsible for advancing that in a thoughtful and meaningful way.
嗯，我认为作为科学家，我们有责任以一种深思熟虑且有意义的方式推进这一进程。
I think we can do this in the retina.
我认为我们可以在视网膜上做到这一点。
It is the place to start.
这是起点。
I'm curious what you think, actually, as a scientist.
我很好奇你作为一名科学家的真实想法。
Your background is in this field or very close field to mine.
你的背景是这个领域或者与我的领域非常接近。
I know you speak with all sorts of scientists on this podcast, but this is pretty much your field, or very close.
我知道你在这个播客上与各种各样的科学家交谈，但这几乎是你的领域，或者非常接近。
Not the neuroengineering part, but understanding the retina.
不是神经工程部分，而是了解视网膜。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
And I'm curious if you agree that this is the place to start doing this stuff.
我很好奇你是否同意从这里开始做这些事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You're the first guest to ever ask me a question on this podcast during a guest interview.
您是第一个在客座采访期间在这个播客上问我问题的嘉宾。
I think this would be a fun place to both answer and riff on this a little bit because first of all, I think the retina is absolutely the place to start because we understand so much of what it does, what the cell types are.
我认为这将是一个有趣的地方来回答和重复这个问题，因为首先，我认为视网膜绝对是一个起点，因为我们了解它的很多功能，细胞类型是什么。
But maybe by comparison, a different brain region, the hippocampus, which is involved in the formation of memories and other stuff, but formation of memories about what one did the previous day, what one did many years ago, et cetera, is an area that I think anytime the conversation about neural prosthetics or neuroengineering or neural augmentation comes up, people think, "Oh, wouldn't it be cool to have a little stimulating device in the hippocampus, and then if I want to remember a bunch of information from a page or from a lecture, I just stimulate, and then voila, all the information is batched in there?" While that's an attractive idea I think it's worth pointing out right now that sure, there is a pretty decent understanding of the different cell types in terms of their shapes, some of their electrical properties of the hippocampus, but there is in no way, shape, or form the depth of understanding about the hippocampus and what the individual cell types do and what the different layers of it do that one has for the neural retina.
但也许相比之下，另一个大脑区域——海马体，它参与记忆和其他东西的形成，但形成关于前一天做了什么、多年前做了什么等等的记忆，是一个我认为每当有关神经修复或神经工程或神经增强的谈话出现时，人们都会想的区域，“哦，在海马体中有一个小刺激装置不是很酷吗？然后如果我想记住一页上的一堆信息或者从讲座中，我只是刺激，然后瞧，所有的信息都在那里批处理？”虽然这是一个有吸引力的想法，但我认为现在值得指出的是，人们对不同细胞类型的形状、海马体的一些电特性有了相当不错的了解，但对海马体、单个细胞类型的作用以及它的不同层对神经视网膜的作用没有任何方式、形状或形成深度的理解。
So what we're really saying is if you stimulate the hippocampus, you'll likely get an effect, but it's unclear what the effect is, and it's not clear how to stimulate.
所以我们真正想说的是，如果你刺激海马体，你很可能会产生效果，但目前还不清楚效果是什么，也不清楚如何刺激。
That's, to me, the best reason to focus on the retina, because you know what the cell types are, thanks to the work of your laboratory and many other laboratories.
对我来说，这是关注视网膜的最佳理由，因为由于你们实验室和许多其他实验室的工作，你们知道细胞类型是什么。
You know what sorts of stimulation matter, and it provides the perfect test bed for this whole business of neural augmentation, neuroengineering.
你知道什么样的刺激很重要，它为神经增强、神经工程的整个业务提供了完美的测试平台。
I think there's also a bigger discussion to just frame this in, which is so much of what we discuss on this podcast with guests and in solo episodes, relates to things like dopamine, neuromodulators, serotonin.
我认为还有一个更大的讨论来框架这一点，这是我们在这个播客上与嘉宾和独奏节目中讨论的很多内容，涉及多巴胺、神经调节剂、血清素等东西。
Everyone is interested in these things because they can profoundly change the way that we perceive and interact with the world.
每个人都对这些事物感兴趣，因为它们可以深刻地改变我们感知世界和与世界互动的方式。
But one only has to look to the various pharmaceuticals that increase or decrease these neuromodulators and know that indeed, those pharmaceuticals can be immensely beneficial to certain individuals.
但人们只需关注增加或减少这些神经调节剂的各种药物，就知道这些药物确实对某些个体非常有益。
I want to be clear about that.
我想澄清这一点。
But that whatever, quote-unquote, side effects one sees or lack of effect over time is because those receptors are everywhere around the brain, so you can't just increase dopamine in the brain and expect to only get one specific desired effect.
但不管怎样，随着时间的推移，人们看到的副作用或缺乏效果是因为这些受体遍布大脑周围，所以你不能只增加大脑中的多巴胺，然后期望只获得一种特定的预期效果。
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So the reason you're here today is not because we both worked on the retina, and it's not because we happen to also be friends.
所以你今天来这里的原因并不是因为我们都在视网膜上工作，也不是因为我们碰巧也是朋友。
It's because, to my mind, your laboratory represents the apex of precision in terms of trying to figure out what a given piece of the brain, in your case, the neural retina, does, parse all its different components, and then use that knowledge to create a real-world technology that can actually tickle and probe and stimulate that piece of the brain in a way that's meaningful, not just sending electrical activity in.
这是因为，在我看来，你们的实验室在试图弄清楚大脑的某个特定部分（在你的例子中，即神经视网膜）做什么方面代表了精确度的顶峰，解析其所有不同的组成部分，然后利用这些知识来创建一种现实世界的技术，这种技术实际上可以以一种有意义的方式刺激、探测和刺激大脑的那部分，而不仅仅是发送电活动。
And that, to me, is so important.
这对我来说非常重要。
I think if we were going to think about levels of specificity for manipulating the human brain to get an effect, you would say, okay, crudest would be drugs.
我认为，如果我们要考虑操纵人脑以获得效果的特异性水平，你会说，好吧，最原始的是药物。
Take a drug, increases serotonin, which might bind to particular receptors.
服用药物会增加血清素，血清素可能与特定受体结合。
Let's take the drug psilocybin.
让我们服用裸盖菇素药物。
A lot of excitement about psilocybin.
关于裸盖菇素的很多兴奋。
We know that can lead to increased connectivity between different brain regions at rest.
我们知道这可以增强休息时不同大脑区域之间的连接性。
There is some demonstrated clinical benefit.
有一些已证实的临床益处。
There's also some potential hazards, but it's very broad scale.
还有一些潜在的危险，但范围非常广泛。
We don't know what's happening when the person is thinking about a piece of moss expanding into an image and a memory of their childhood, or it's like a million different things are happening there.
我们不知道当一个人思考一块苔藓扩展成一个图像和童年记忆时会发生什么，或者就像那里正在发生一百万种不同的事情。
And then at the other far extreme is the kind of experiment that you're talking about, stimulating one known type of retinal cell, seeing what that means for visual processing, or modeling what that means for visual processing, and then building a device that can do exactly that, and then maybe ramp it up 20%, 50%.
另一个极端是你所说的那种实验，刺激一种已知类型的视网膜细胞，看看这对视觉处理意味着什么，或者模拟这对视觉处理意味着什么，然后构建一个可以做到这一点的设备，然后可能将其提高 20%、50%。
Because I think that represents the first step into, okay, how would you stimulate the hippocampus to create a super memory?
因为我认为这代表了第一步，好吧，你将如何刺激海马体创造超级记忆？
Would you stimulate a particular cell type in a particular way?
你会以特定的方式刺激特定的细胞类型吗？
And to my knowledge, despite the immense excitement about the hippocampus, and understandably so, there just isn't that precision of understanding yet.
据我所知，尽管人们对海马体感到非常兴奋，而且这是可以理解的，但人们对它的理解还没有那么精确。
So forgive the long answer, but you asked me a question on this podcast-
所以请原谅这个长答案，但你在这个播客上问了我一个问题 -
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
Love that answer
喜欢这个答案
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I'm going to give you a long answer.
我要给你一个很长的答案。
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
Yeah, and specificity is what you're talking about, and we need technology to do that, to modulate neural circuits in a highly specific way.
是的，特异性就是你所说的，我们需要技术来做到这一点，以高度特异性的方式调节神经回路。
We've got to start with the piece of the neural circuit we understand best and we have best access to.
我们必须从我们最了解、最容易接触到的神经回路开始。
That's the retina.
那是视网膜。
It's sitting right there on the surface.
它就在表面上。
We can get right into it and install devices.
我们可以直接进入并安装设备。
We know so much about it.
我们对此了解很多。
That's the place to start, the place that we understand.
这是我们理解的起点，也是我们理解的地方。
Build electronics that is adaptive, that senses what circuit it's embedded in and responds appropriately.
构建自适应电子设备，能够感知其嵌入的电路并做出适当的响应。
It's not just electronics you stick in there, and it does something, and that's it.
它不仅仅是你粘在那里的电子产品，它还能做一些事情，仅此而已。
No. It first figures out who it's talking to-
不。它首先弄清楚它正在和谁说话——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm
毫米
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
...
...
and then learns to speak the language of the nearby neural circuitry.
然后学习说附近神经回路的语言。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So a smart device.
所以是一个智能设备。
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
Smart device.
智能设备。
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Let's push on that a little bit.
让我们稍微推动一下。
So you put a little chip onto the retina that can stimulate specific cell types.
所以你在视网膜上放了一个小芯片，可以刺激特定的细胞类型。
Is there a way that it can use AI, machine learning-
有没有一种方法可以使用人工智能、机器学习-
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that it can learn something about the tissue it happens to be in contact with?
它可以了解它所接触的组织的一些信息？
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
In the simplest possible way, the device works in three simple steps.
该设备以最简单的方式工作，只需三个简单的步骤。
Step number one, record electrical activity, which is what we do in our lab in a room full of equipment, but this is a two-millimeter size chip implanted in your eye.
第一步，记录电活动，这就是我们在实验室里在一个装满设备的房间里所做的事情，但这是植入您眼睛中的两毫米大小的芯片。
Record the electrical activity.
记录电活动。
Just recognize what cells are there, when they're firing, what electrical properties they have to identify the cells and cell types in this specific circuit in this human.
只需识别那里有哪些细胞，它们何时放电，它们具有哪些电特性，即可识别该人体特定电路中的细胞和细胞类型。
That's step one.
这是第一步。
Step two, stimulate and record.
第二步，刺激并记录。
So you figure out, oh, this electrode activates cell number 14 with 50% probability.
所以你会发现，哦，这个电极以 50% 的概率激活 14 号细胞。
This electrode activates cell number 12 if you pass a microamp of current with this probability, and so on.
如果您以此概率通过一微安的电流，则该电极会激活 12 号细胞，依此类推。
You make a big table that tells you how these electrodes talk to these cells in your circuit.
您制作了一张大表，告诉您这些电极如何与电路中的这些细胞通信。
That's step two, calibrate the stimulation by stimulation and recording.
这是第二步，通过刺激和记录来校准刺激。
Then finally, when you have a visual image and you want to represent it in the pattern of activity of these cells, you say, okay, I know from decades of basic science what these cells ought to be doing with this image that's coming in.
最后，当你有一个视觉图像并且你想用这些细胞的活动模式来表示它时，你会说，好吧，我从数十年的基础科学中知道这些细胞应该对传入的图像做什么。
I know exactly what they ought to be doing.
我清楚地知道他们应该做什么。
That's what the science has been telling us.
这就是科学告诉我们的。
We've been studying the neural code for decades to understand this.
为了理解这一点，我们已经研究了神经编码数十年。
I know what they should do.
我知道他们应该做什么。
Use my device with my calibration, where I know where the cells are, I know how the electrodes talk to them, and bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, activate them in the correct sequence.
使用我的设备进行校准，我知道细胞在哪里，我知道电极如何与它们对话，并且按正确的顺序激活它们。
That's what I think of as a smart device, a device that stimulates and records, and then finally stimulates.
这就是我所认为的智能设备，一个刺激、记录、然后最终刺激的设备。
Yes, AI is part of that.
是的，人工智能是其中的一部分。
Of course, it is, because this is a very complex Transformation, if you will, from the external visual world to the patterns of activity of these cells.
当然是的，因为如果你愿意的话，这是一个非常复杂的转变，从外部视觉世界到这些细胞的活动模式。
It's not easy to write down in just a few lines of code or in a few equations.
仅用几行代码或几个方程式来写下来并不容易。
It's complicated.
情况很复杂。
And AI is really helpful for that.
人工智能对此确实很有帮助。
And learning by stimulating and recording and aggregating information quickly so that you can then use the device, that's absolutely a part of the engineering.
通过刺激、记录和快速聚合信息来学习，以便您可以使用该设备，这绝对是工程的一部分。
Let me be clear, the AI doesn't help us to understand.
让我澄清一下，人工智能并不能帮助我们理解。
It's just an engineering tool that helps us to capture what this thing normally does, and then go ahead and execute and make it do the thing it should normally do.
它只是一个工程工具，可以帮助我们捕获这个东西通常会做什么，然后继续执行并让它做它通常应该做的事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I hope people will appreciate this example.
我希望人们会欣赏这个例子。
Perhaps not, but goodness, I don't know, 40, 50 years ago, but still today, one treatment for depression is electric shock therapy.
也许不是，但天哪，我不知道，40、50年前，但直到今天，治疗抑郁症的一种方法就是电击疗法。
A very, on the face of it, barbaric treatment, but effective in certain conditions.
从表面上看，这是一种非常野蛮的治疗方法，但在某些情况下却很有效。
It's still used for a reason.
它仍然被使用是有原因的。
But it can appear barbaric, right?
但这可能显得很野蛮，对吧？
People have a bite device so they don't bite through their tongue or their lips.
人们有咬合装置，这样他们就不会用舌头或嘴唇咬东西。
They're strapped down and they stimulate the whole brain, just stimulate all neurons in the brain, essentially.
它们被束缚住，刺激整个大脑，本质上只是刺激大脑中的所有神经元。
There's a huge dump of neurotransmitters and neuromodulators and-
这里有大量的神经递质和神经调节剂，而且——
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
It's like drugs.
这就像毒品。
It's completely nonspecific stimulation-
这完全是非特异性刺激——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right
右
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
...
...
effectively, right?
有效，对吧？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Probably even less specific than drugs.
可能甚至不如药物那么具体。
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
Maybe.
也许吧。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And yet, the clinical outcomes from electric shock therapy, in some cases, are pretty impressive.
然而，在某些情况下，电击疗法的临床结果非常令人印象深刻。
Like people-
像人一样——
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
the brain is, quote-unquote, "reset." They still remember who they are, but presumably through the release of neuromodulators like dopamine, serotonin, acetylcholine in a very nonspecific way, there has been some symptom relief in some cases.
大脑正在“重置”。他们仍然记得自己是谁，但可能是通过以非常非特异性的方式释放多巴胺、血清素、乙酰胆碱等神经调节剂，在某些情况下症状有所缓解。
What you're talking about is really the opposite extreme.
你说的其实是相反的极端。
Before I said pharmaceuticals that tickle a particular neuromodulator pathway would be the opposite extreme.
之前我说过刺激特定神经调节途径的药物将是相反的极端。
I think electric shock therapy is probably the most extreme.
我认为电击疗法可能是最极端的。
Where is this whole business of neural prostheses going outside of the visual system?
视觉系统之外的神经假体的整个业务在哪里？
Right now, I can imagine that there are little stimulators in the spinal cord for sake of restoring movement to paralyzed people.
现在，我可以想象，为了让瘫痪的人恢复运动，脊髓中几乎没有刺激器。
I realize this is not your field, but are you seeing impressive stuff there, or is it still really, really early days?
我意识到这不是您的领域，但是您是否在那里看到了令人印象深刻的东西，或者它仍然非常非常早期吗？
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
There's absolutely impressive stuff, particularly, for example, people reading out signals from the motor cortex or the language cortex in order to help people to communicate or to move cursors on screens in order to interact with devices.
这绝对是令人印象深刻的东西，特别是，例如，人们读出来自运动皮层或语言皮层的信号，以帮助人们交流或移动屏幕上的光标以与设备交互。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
These are paralyzed people.
这些都是瘫痪的人。
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
Yeah, excuse me.
是的，对不起。
Paralyzed people who can't interact with technology the way that we do.
无法像我们一样与技术互动的瘫痪者。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
But with their thoughts, can send signals through an electronic device that can be used to control a mouse on a screen and have them connect to the Internet.
但通过他们的思想，可以通过电子设备发送信号，该电子设备可用于控制屏幕上的鼠标并使他们连接到互联网。
That's a huge deal to be able to have people do that.
能够让人们这样做是一件大事。
Imagine how life-changing it would be to be able to communicate if you couldn't before.
想象一下，如果您以前无法沟通，那么现在能够沟通将给您的生活带来多大的改变。
So there are wonderful examples of that.
所以有很多很棒的例子。
You know of them, so do I.
你知道他们，我也知道。
The work of Krishna Shenoy and Jamie Henderson at Stanford is one beautiful example over the recent years.
斯坦福大学的 Krishna Shenoy 和 Jamie Henderson 的工作就是近年来的一个很好的例子。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Eddie Chang.
艾迪·张.
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
Eddie Chang doing stuff now.
艾迪·张现在正在做事。
Neuralink doing this kind of stuff that built on the work of Shenoy and Henderson and stuff.
Neuralink 做的这类事情是建立在 Shenoy 和 Henderson 等人的工作基础上的。
So that's great.
那太好了。
Stimulating in spinal circuits, as you said, for creating rhythmic movements.
正如你所说，刺激脊髓回路以产生有节奏的运动。
That's happening.
这就是正在发生的事情。
So this is an enormous space, and in each case, what you said, I think, is really highly relevant, that electroshock therapy, you can think of that as, look, let's say your computer is not behaving right.
所以这是一个巨大的空间，在每种情况下，我认为你所说的都非常相关，即电击疗法，你可以将其视为，看，假设你的计算机运行不正常。
You can reboot it.
您可以重新启动它。
Might work.
可能有用。
Then it'll start not working again, then you have to reboot it again.
然后它将再次开始无法工作，然后您必须再次重新启动它。
Well, how often do you want to reboot your computer?
那么，您想多久重新启动一次计算机？
It gets a little inconvenient to be rebooting your computer every five minutes.
每五分钟重新启动一次计算机会有点不方便。
Maybe you want to go in and actually diagnose this thing and put in a piece of software that fixes the thing that was going wrong instead of rebooting your computer every five minutes, right?
也许您想进去实际诊断这个问题，然后安装一个软件来修复出现的问题，而不是每五分钟重新启动一次计算机，对吧？
And I think of electric shock therapy a little bit as a reboot.
我认为电击疗法有点像重启。
It's at that level.
就在那个水平。
So we want to intervene more specifically.
所以我们想进行更具体的干预。
How do you do that?
你是怎么做到的？
Well, you have to understand the software in order to do that.
那么，您必须了解该软件才能做到这一点。
You have to have specificity controlling this thing in your computer.
你必须在你的计算机中专门控制这个东西。
Not this, this, this, this, or this.
不是这个，这个，这个，这个，或者这个。
This particular thing that's going wrong, you got to interfere with that and change it and modulate it.
这个特别的事情出了问题，你必须干预它，改变它并调节它。
Well, that's what understanding the neural circuit is about.
嗯，这就是理解神经回路的意义所在。
That's what building specific hardware that can activate specific cells is about.
这就是构建可以激活特定细胞的特定硬件的目的。
That's in the case of the retina, again, it's just so obvious that it's right in front of us to do this stuff, and it's right in front of us to take us into augmentation, to giving us better senses.
就视网膜而言，它是如此明显，它就在我们面前做这些事情，它就在我们面前带领我们进行增强，为我们提供更好的感官。
A fun example I like, it's an interesting topic because the National Institutes of Health that funds a lot of research that goes in this direction tends to not be interested in augmenting our senses.
我喜欢一个有趣的例子，这是一个有趣的话题，因为资助大量朝这个方向研究的美国国立卫生研究院往往对增强我们的感官不感兴趣。
They draw a line more or less at saying, "Look, we're trying to restore what we were as humans, not create a new kind of human." And that's an interesting question because I don't think there is an actual line, a bright line between those things.
他们或多或少地划出了一条界限：“看，我们正在努力恢复人类的本来面目，而不是创造一种新的人类。”这是一个有趣的问题，因为我认为这些事物之间不存在真正的界限，清晰的界限。
I don't think there's a bright line between those two things.
我认为这两件事之间没有明确的界限。
The finest example I know is that even in the very crudest visual restoration devices, you have to actively suppress the infrared sensitivity of your camera to not have infrared vision.
我知道的最好的例子是，即使在最原始的视觉恢复设备中，您也必须主动抑制相机的红外灵敏度，才能不具有红外视觉。
Why?
为什么？
Because many cameras are sensitive to infrared light.
因为很多相机对红外光都很敏感。
So in other words, if you don't put an infrared filter in front of your camera, you're going to have some infrared vision.
换句话说，如果你不在相机前放置红外滤光片，你就会有一些红外视觉。
Maybe it won't help you very much, whatever.
无论如何，也许它不会对你有太大帮助。
I'm just trying to say, as soon as you start building devices to restore sensations, building electronic devices, augmentation is right around the corner.
我只是想说，一旦你开始制造恢复感觉的设备，制造电子设备，增强技术就指日可待。
It'll creep up on you real fast.
它会很快地爬到你身上。
So I think you can't even really draw a line.
所以我认为你甚至无法真正划清界限。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Throughout today's discussion, we've been thinking of the brain as kind of a, the rest of the brain, I should say, because the neural retina is two pieces of the brain extruded out into the eye globes during development.
在今天的讨论中，我应该说，我们一直将大脑视为大脑的其余部分，因为神经视网膜是大脑在发育过程中突出到眼球的两部分。
I like to remind people of that over and over.
我喜欢一遍又一遍地提醒人们这一点。
When you're looking at somebody's eyes, you are looking at two pieces of their brain.
当你看着某人的眼睛时，你就是在看他们大脑的两个部分。
There's no debate about that, but most people don't realize that You'll never look at anyone the same way again.
对此没有争议，但大多数人没有意识到你永远不会再以同样的方式看待任何人。
But this is the reason why you can tell so much about people's inner state from their eyes.
但这就是为什么你可以从人们的眼睛看出很多内心状态的原因。
Somebody who's sleep deprived, it's not just about the droopiness of their eyelids or the circles under their eyes.
对于睡眠不足的人来说，这不仅仅是眼睑下垂或黑眼圈的问题。
There's an aliveness to the eyes.
眼睛里有一种生机。
The yogis talk about people that show up at the level of their eyes as opposed to sunk back into their brain.
瑜伽修行者谈论的人是在他们的眼睛的水平上显现出来的，而不是沉入他们的大脑中的。
These are very abstract concepts, but they-
这些都是非常抽象的概念，但它们——
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
And there's some very non-abstract stuff these days, looking through the eye at the retina the way ophthalmologists do.
现在有一些非常非抽象的东西，就像眼科医生那样通过眼睛观察视网膜。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
And there's a lot of diagnostic capability just in those images of the retina that are-
视网膜图像具有很多诊断能力——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, right.
哦，对了。
I'm glad you brought this up.
我很高兴你提出这个问题。
There's some interesting and increasing evidence that looking at the neural retina, because it is a piece of the brain with neurons that have the potential to both thrive or degenerate, that looking at the neural retina, which one can do with these new technologies, can provide a window into whether or not there are forms of degeneration such as Alzheimer's and other forms of neurodegeneration deeper within the brain that one can't image directly because of the thick opacity of the skull.
有一些有趣且越来越多的证据表明，观察神经视网膜，因为它是大脑的一部分，其中有神经元，有可能繁荣或退化，通过这些新技术观察神经视网膜，可以提供一个窗口，了解大脑深处是否存在诸如阿尔茨海默病和其他形式的神经退行性疾病，因为头骨很厚的不透明性，人们无法直接成像。
Right?
正确的？
So, in other words, imaging the eye in order to determine if someone is developing Alzheimer's.
换句话说，通过对眼睛进行成像来确定某人是否患有阿尔茨海默病。
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
Because you have a direct view into a little piece of the brain.
因为你可以直接看到大脑的一小部分。
It's a good signal.
这是一个很好的信号。
It can help you figure stuff out about what's going on in your brain, even beyond the sunken eyes.
它可以帮助您了解大脑中正在发生的事情，甚至超越凹陷的眼睛。
Absolutely.
绝对地。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Amazing.
太棒了。
So, I think the rest of the brain piece is also really interesting, and maybe here we can go semi-neurophilosophical.
所以，我认为大脑的其余部分也非常有趣，也许在这里我们可以进行半神经哲学。
There are clearly parts of the brain that are involved in essential, what I call housekeeping functions, regulating respiration, keeping us breathing, keeping our heart beating, digestion, responding to threats in some sort of basic way, like through the secretion of adrenaline and giving us the potential to move.
显然，大脑的某些部分涉及基本功能，我称之为管家功能，调节呼吸，保持我们的呼吸，保持我们的心跳，消化，以某种基本方式应对威胁，例如通过分泌肾上腺素并赋予我们移动的潜力。
But a lot of the brain is capable of plasticity.
但大脑的很多部分都具有可塑性。
And one wonders if you were to, for instance, develop a retinal prosthesis that would allow me to see with twice the level of detail that I currently can, would my adult brain be capable of dealing with that information?
人们想知道，例如，如果你要开发一种视网膜假体，使我能够以目前两倍的细节水平看到东西，我的成年大脑是否有能力处理这些信息？
We're talking about twice as much information coming in, same brain tissue on the receiving end.
我们谈论的是接收端相同的脑组织接收到两倍的信息。
Can it make sense of it?
能明白其中的道理吗？
Do we have any idea if it can make sense of it?
我们知道它是否有意义吗？
Are there experiments that speak to that?
有实验证明这一点吗？
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
Yeah, that's a fantastic and interesting question.
是的，这是一个奇妙而有趣的问题。
It makes you think about neural development all over again, right?
这让你重新思考神经发育，对吗？
And I take some inspiration on that from the work of someone you know, Eric Knudsen, who discovered that there is plasticity beyond the periods of time.
我从你认识的人埃里克·克努森（Eric Knudsen）的工作中得到了一些灵感，他发现超越时间段的可塑性。
He discovered many wonderful things, but there's plasticity well beyond the period of time that we thought that there was plasticity in certain animals, and in particular, that if you make gradual adjustments to the sensory world, you can exhibit plasticity that you can't see if you make an abrupt adjustment.
他发现了很多奇妙的东西，但可塑性远远超出了我们认为某些动物具有可塑性的时期，特别是，如果你对感官世界进行逐步的调整，你可以表现出突然调整时看不到的可塑性。
So plasticity is there, it just has to be brought on by more subtle manipulations that take you from A to B in little incremental steps, and if you take those incremental steps, you can see the adult plasticity.
所以可塑性是存在的，它只需要通过更微妙的操作来实现，这些操作可以让你以小的增量步骤从 A 到 B，如果你采取这些增量步骤，你就可以看到成人的可塑性。
So coming to your question, is the brain capable of receiving the kind of extra information we provide it?
那么，说到你的问题，大脑是否能够接收我们提供的额外信息？
Could be that if we just show up on day one, bam, try to deliver twice the visual resolution or whatever, your visual system, it could be that if we try to deliver twice the visual resolution on day one, it won't work.
可能是，如果我们只是在第一天出现，砰，尝试提供两倍的视觉分辨率或其他什么，你的视觉系统，如果我们尝试在第一天提供两倍的视觉分辨率，它可能不会工作。
It won't look sensible to you.
这对你来说看起来不太明智。
But if we gradually introduce it, by the way that we're dialing up the resolution, we may be able to get there.
但如果我们逐步引入它，通过提高分辨率的方式，我们也许能够实现这一目标。
And there are fascinating studies to be done.
还有一些有趣的研究有待完成。
You think about spike timing-dependent plasticity, a term that your viewers may not all know, but is related to how neurons adjust their strength of connectivity to one another according to the timing of the signals in those cells.
您会想到尖峰时间依赖性可塑性，您的观众可能并不都知道这一术语，但它与神经元如何根据这些细胞中信号的时间调整彼此的连接强度有关。
Mechanisms like that tell us, wow, the brain really cares about the very precise timing of stuff, and to the degree that that influences the way that neurons do or don't strengthen their connections to one another.
这样的机制告诉我们，哇，大脑真的很关心事物的精确时间，并且在某种程度上影响神经元加强或不加强彼此联系的方式。
It's so fundamental in everything from memory to visual function, what have you.
它对于从记忆到视觉功能的一切事物都是如此基础，你有什么。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This relates to fire together, wire together, although it highlights the together part.
这与一起火、一起电线有关，尽管它强调了一起的部分。
How closely in time do two neurons need to be active in order for them to subsequently increase their connectivity?
两个神经元需要多长时间处于活动状态才能随后增加其连接性？
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
And indeed, one of them needs to be active a little bit before the other one in order for it to work optimally, right?
事实上，其中一个需要比另一个先活跃一点才能使其发挥最佳效果，对吗？
So what I envision is that when we have full control of the neural code with an electronic implant that can talk to the cells and do all the things that I said, and we can really control the neural code coming out of the retina, we can then start to play games and dial up that neural code very slowly and teach the remaining brain how to understand these signals.
所以我的设想是，当我们通过电子植入物完全控制神经代码时，它可以与细胞对话并完成我所说的所有事情，并且我们可以真正控制从视网膜发出的神经代码，然后我们可以开始玩游戏并非常缓慢地拨出神经代码并教剩余的大脑如何理解这些信号。
Not introduce some crazy thing from day one, no, just gradually teach.
不要从第一天开始就介绍一些疯狂的事情，不，只是逐渐教授。
Isn't that how we do everything well?
我们不就是这样做好每一件事吗？
Isn't that how plasticity works?
可塑性不就是这样发挥作用的吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I love the subtlety and the rationality of your example because so much of what we see in the Internet and on the news is chips inserted into the brain to create super memory or conversations between 50 people at the same time without anyone speaking, just hearing other people's thoughts by way of neural signals being passed from one to the next.
我喜欢你举的例子的微妙性和合理性，因为我们在互联网和新闻中看到的很多内容都是植入大脑的芯片，可以在50个人之间同时创建超级记忆或对话，而无需任何人说话，只是通过神经信号从一个人传递到另一个人来听到其他人的想法。
But yet another reason why you're here today is because you represent the realistic, grounded, incremental approach to really parsing this whole thing of how the brain works and how one then goes about engineering devices to augment the human brain.
但你今天来到这里的另一个原因是因为你代表了一种现实的、扎根的、渐进的方法来真正解析大脑如何工作以及如何设计设备来增强人类大脑。
And as you just pointed out, it's not going to be done by just sticking electrodes in and stimulating and seeing what happens.
正如您刚才指出的，仅仅插入电极并刺激并观察会发生什么是无法完成的。
In fact, those experiments were done in the 1960s.
事实上，这些实验是在 20 世纪 60 年代完成的。
People like Robert Heath would put electrodes into the brain during neurosurgery, stimulate, and just see what the patient would do or what they reported thinking.
像罗伯特·希思这样的人会在神经外科手术中将电极放入大脑中，进行刺激，然后看看病人会做什么或他们报告的想法。
Nowadays, that's done still, but with a lot more precision and intention, and we've moved far beyond
如今，这仍然是这样做的，但更加精确和意图，我们已经远远超出了
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
By the way, I just want to say, those were important first experiments.
顺便说一句，我只想说，这些是重要的第一个实验。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, they're cool experiments.
是的，他们是很酷的实验。
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
That's the first thing you got to do.
这是你要做的第一件事。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Keith was a rather, let's be honest, not the most savory character.
老实说，基思并不是一个最令人愉快的角色。
He embarked on some experiments that had a social agenda to them and was a pretty, at least by my read, was not the kind of person I'd want to spend time with, to say the least.
他开始了一些有社会议程的实验，至少从我看来，他是一个漂亮的人，至少可以说，他不是那种我愿意与之共度时光的人。
But you're right, those experiments were critical because like electric shock therapy, like the formulation of drugs that can massively increase certain neuromodulators or decrease them, they led to some level, crude, but some level of understanding about how the brain works, which is what we're really talking about today.
但你是对的，这些实验至关重要，因为就像电击疗法一样，就像配制可以大量增加或减少某些神经调节剂的药物一样，它们导致了对大脑如何工作的某种程度的、粗略的但一定程度的理解，这就是我们今天真正讨论的内容。
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But you represent the, as I said, the astronauts of this.
但正如我所说，你们代表了这一切的宇航员。
Astronauts don't go into space and just kind of blast off and see where they end up.
宇航员不会进入太空，只是升空看看他们最终会去哪里。
There's math, there's physics, there's computer science.
有数学，有物理，有计算机科学。
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
Sensors, cameras.
传感器、摄像头。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's right.
没错。
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
Looking, where are we about to land here on the Moon?
看看我们要在月球的什么地方着陆？
Is there a crater here or not?
这里到底有没有火山口？
What's around us?
我们周围有什么？
We should sense what's there and then make our decisions accordingly.
我们应该感知那里存在什么，然后做出相应的决定。
And our electronic implants in the brain, really, we should make them smart.
我们大脑中的电子植入物确实应该让它们变得聪明。
Why make them dumb?
为什么要让他们变傻呢？
We're smarter than that.
我们比那更聪明。
We can build implants that can sense what's around them and change their patterns of activity accordingly.
我们可以制造能够感知周围事物并相应改变其活动模式的植入物。
I use a metaphor sometimes.
我有时会用一个比喻。
If you go as an American who doesn't speak Chinese to China, and you start yelling in English, maybe somebody will, to learn which way to go on the street, somebody might understand you at some point and help you out, but it's going to be a not very effective way to get around.
如果你作为一个不会说中文的美国人去中国，你开始用英语大喊大叫，也许有人会，为了了解在街上该走哪条路，有人可能会在某些时候理解你并帮助你，但这将不是一种非常有效的出行方式。
It's way better if you speak the language, you talk to people and ask them where to go.
如果你会说当地语言，与人们交谈并询问他们要去哪里，那就更好了。
So that's what we need to know.
这就是我们需要知道的。
We need to say, "Look, we have the science.
我们需要说：“看，我们有科学。
We have incredible devices we can engineer.
我们拥有可以设计的令人难以置信的设备。
We have AI now that even helps us to do this query of the outside world and turn it into a smarter instrument.
我们现在拥有人工智能，甚至可以帮助我们对外界进行查询，并将其变成更智能的工具。
Make our instruments smart.
让我们的仪器变得智能化。
Make them so they know how to talk to the brain.
让它们知道如何与大脑对话。
Don't expect that the brain is just going to wrap itself around your simple electronic device.
不要指望大脑只会将自己包裹在简单的电子设备周围。
No, make a smart device." That's what we want to make, a smart retinal implant.
不，制造一个智能设备。”这就是我们想要制造的，智能视网膜植入物。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Maybe we could just take a couple of minutes and talk a little bit about you and some of the things that have led to your choice to go in this direction.
也许我们可以花几分钟时间谈谈您以及导致您选择朝这个方向发展的一些事情。
So did you always know you wanted to be a neuroscientist from the time you started college?
那么，从你上大学的时候起，你就一直知道你想成为一名神经科学家吗？
What was your trajectory?
你的轨迹是什么？
I should know this, but you were an undergraduate at-
我应该知道这一点，但你是一名本科生——
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
At Princeton
在普林斯顿
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
at Princeton, that right.
在普林斯顿大学，没错。
Studying?
学习？
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
Math.
数学。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Math.
数学。
So you could have just done all your work with a piece of paper and a pen, but you had to try and engineer all these electrodes.
因此，您可以用一张纸和一支笔完成所有工作，但您必须尝试设计所有这些电极。
Okay, that's a pen and paper pen.
好吧，这是笔和纸笔。
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
I took a very random route.
我走了一条非常随意的路线。
I studied math as an undergrad.
我本科时学的是数学。
I spent a few years running around playing music and traveling and living a bohemian life.
我花了几年时间到处演奏音乐、旅行，过着波西米亚式的生活。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Ooh, tell me more about that.
哦，告诉我更多有关这件事的信息。
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
Oh, I basically just told you all I'm going to tell.
哦，我基本上只是告诉了你我要告诉的一切。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Following the Grateful Dead.
追随感恩而死者。
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
No, not quite following them, but that was an important part of the story and inspired my music.
不，我不太关注他们，但那是故事的重要组成部分，并激发了我的音乐灵感。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Was that an important part of your personal development?
这是您个人发展的重要组成部分吗？
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
Very much so.
非常如此。
Free expression, dance, music, creative, exploratory music, all that kind of stuff.
自由表达、舞蹈、音乐、创意、探索性音乐，诸如此类。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Such a contrast to the EJ that comes forward when we're talking about the precision of neural stimulation in specific retinal cell types.
当我们谈论特定视网膜细胞类型的神经刺激的精确度时，与 EJ 形成了鲜明的对比。
But I think it's useful for people to hear, both young and old, that one's nervous system can be partitioned into these different abilities, to go and dance and travel, and you weren't doing anything academic at that time.
但我认为，无论年轻人还是老年人，听到一个人的神经系统可以分为这些不同的能力，去跳舞和旅行，这对人们很有用，而且当时你没有做任何学术上的事情。
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
No, for a few years, I wasn't doing that.
不，有几年我没有这样做。
Programming computers to make a living.
编程计算机以谋生。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Uh-huh.
嗯嗯。
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
And then I started three different PhD programs at Stanford before I settled.
然后我在斯坦福大学开始了三个不同的博士课程，然后才安顿下来。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Simultaneously?
同时？
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
No.
不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh my goodness.
天哪。
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
In sequence.
按顺序。
I started in the math PhD program.
我开始攻读数学博士课程。
I learned that was not really for me.
我知道这并不适合我。
And I started in an economics PhD program in the business school there, and I realized after less than a year, that was not for me.
我开始在那里的商学院攻读经济学博士学位，不到一年我就意识到，这不适合我。
I worked in a startup company for a while.
我在一家初创公司工作过一段时间。
I did a lot of stuff for a few years and it took some settling.
几年来我做了很多事情，需要一些时间来解决。
But then I decided to go into neuroscience, and there were a couple formative things.
但后来我决定进入神经科学领域，有一些影响深远的事情。
One is that I had gotten a really formative experience as an undergraduate from a wonderful guy called Don Ready, who taught an introductory neuroscience course, who was a really inspiring mentor.
其中之一是，作为一名本科生，我从一位名叫唐·雷迪 (Don Ready) 的好人那里获得了一次非常有影响力的经历，他教授了一门神经科学入门课程，他是一位非常鼓舞人心的导师。
And then when I was at Stanford, I met Brian Wandell, my PhD advisor, and I was inspired by him.
然后，当我在斯坦福大学时，我遇到了我的博士生导师布莱恩·旺德尔（Brian Wandell），我受到了他的启发。
I didn't know why he was studying what he was studying, but I just knew I wanted to learn from this man, and I wanted to study with him.
我不知道他为什么要研究他正在研究的东西，但我只知道我想向这个人学习，我想和他一起学习。
I just knew this was the person who should be my mentor.
我只知道这个人应该是我的导师。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Based on something about him.
根据他的一些事情。
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Can I ask you about these three PhD programs?
我可以向您询问这三个博士项目吗？
Because I think people hear, or see what you're doing, and probably imagine a very linear trajectory.
因为我认为人们听到或看到你在做什么，并且可能会想象出一个非常线性的轨迹。
But now I'm hearing you toured around playing music, then you start a PhD program, nope, then another one, nope, then another one.
但现在我听到你到处演奏音乐，然后你开始了一个博士课程，不，然后是另一个，不，然后是另一个。
Without getting into all the details, were there nights spent lying awake thinking, "What am I going to do with my life?" Or did you have the sense that you knew you wanted to do something important, you just hadn't found the right fit for you?
在不深入了解所有细节的情况下，是否有过夜晚彻夜难眠地思考“我该怎么办我的生活？”或者您是否有一种感觉，您知道自己想做一些重要的事情，但您只是没有找到适合您的人选？
How much anxiety on a scale of one to 10, 10 being total panic, did you experience at the apex of your anxiety in that kind of wandering?
在这种徘徊中，你在焦虑的顶峰经历过多少焦虑（从 1 到 10），10 代表完全恐慌？
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
Am I allowed to go above 10?
我可以超过 10 吗？
Like turning up the amp to 11?
喜欢把放大器调到 11 吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sure.
当然。
I just think it's really important for people to hear-
我只是认为让人们听到真的很重要-
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
whether or not they want to be scientists or not, this idea that people that are doing important things in the world, in my view, rarely if ever, understood that that's the thing that they were going to be doing.
无论他们是否想成为科学家，在我看来，那些在世界上做重要事情的人很少（如果有的话）明白这就是他们要做的事情。
There was some wandering about.
有一些徘徊。
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
That sure seems like it, doesn't it?
看起来确实是这样，不是吗？
Yeah, I experience the same when I talk to other people, and it seems like that.
是的，当我和其他人交谈时，我也有同样的经历，看起来就是这样。
And for sure for me.
对我来说肯定是这样。
It just took a while of trying different things to see, number one, what I was really good at, and where I felt I could make a difference, and I realized I studied math and I was okay at math, but I have known mathematicians who are really talented, gifted mathematicians, the one who really make a difference.
只是花了一段时间尝试不同的事情才发现，第一，我真正擅长什么，我觉得我可以在哪些方面有所作为，我意识到我学的是数学，而且我的数学还不错，但我认识一些数学家，他们是真正有才华、有天赋的数学家，他们真正有所作为。
I wasn't going to be one of those people.
我不会成为那些人中的一员。
Likewise, playing music.
同样，播放音乐。
I don't have that intrinsic talent.
我没有那种内在的天赋。
It's fun.
很有趣。
I can play songs in front of people and do stuff.
我可以在人们面前演奏歌曲并做一些事情。
I like it and stuff like that, but I don't have that kind of talent.
我喜欢它之类的东西，但我没有那种天赋。
In fact, I'll say something that I say to friends sometimes, and you're a good friend of mine.
事实上，我有时会对朋友说一些话，你是我的好朋友。
If I had the talent to get a few thousand people on their feet dancing by playing music, I'd probably just do that.
如果我有能力通过演奏音乐让几千人站起来跳舞，我可能就会这么做。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Really?
真的吗？
As long as we've been friends, I knew none of this.
当我们还是朋友的时候，我对这些一无所知。
I knew none of this, mostly because I think we always end up talking about neuroscience-
我对此一无所知，主要是因为我认为我们最终总是谈论神经科学——
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
Yeah.
是的。
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
or other aspects of our life.
或我们生活的其他方面。
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But I didn't know...
但我不知道...
I know a great many things about you, but I had no idea.
我知道很多关于你的事情，但我却一无所知。
It's so interesting.
太有趣了。
Do you still do dance?
你还跳舞吗？
We had Eric Jarvis on the podcast, by the way, professor at Rockefeller who at one point was studying speech in birds-
顺便说一句，我们的播客中有埃里克·贾维斯（Eric Jarvis），他是洛克菲勒大学的教授，他曾经研究过鸟类的语言——
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and song in birds, and then he's done a great many other things now in genetics of vocalization.
和鸟类的歌唱，然后他现在在发声遗传学方面做了很多其他的事情。
And he actually danced with, or was about to dance with, the Alvin Ailey Dance Company.
他实际上与阿尔文·艾利舞蹈团一起跳舞，或者即将与阿尔文·艾利舞蹈团一起跳舞。
So he a really, really talented dancer.
所以他是一个非常非常有才华的舞者。
And so, dance seems to be a theme that comes up among the neuroscience guests on this podcast.
因此，舞蹈似乎是这个播客的神经科学嘉宾中出现的一个主题。
Do you still dance?
你还跳舞吗？
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
Yeah, I love to dance.
是的，我喜欢跳舞。
I'm a freeform dancer.
我是一名自由舞者。
I'm not a skilled dancer.
我不是一个熟练的舞者。
But I love music, I love dancing, I think it's part of the human spirit, and someday we'll understand the neuroscience behind dancing, right?
但我喜欢音乐，我喜欢舞蹈，我认为这是人类精神的一部分，有一天我们会理解舞蹈背后的神经科学，对吗？
Dancing's a universal human thing in all cultures.
舞蹈是所有文化中人类的普遍现象。
What is this dancing thing?
这是什么跳舞的东西？
Why do we do this and other creatures don't?
为什么我们这样做而其他生物不这样做？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, Jarvis thinks that perhaps it's one of the more early forms of language, and that song came before spoken language.
好吧，贾维斯认为这也许是更早期的语言形式之一，而那首歌出现在口语之前。
It's sort of interesting that birds that can actually recreate human speech oftentimes have the ability to dance as well.
有趣的是，实际上可以重现人类语言的鸟类通常也有跳舞的能力。
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
Oh, wow.
哦，哇。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And so there's some commonality-
所以有一些共同点——
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
Wow, I got to listen to that
哇，我得听听这个
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
of circuitry there.
那里的电路。
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Anyway, we'll provide a link to that episode.
无论如何，我们将提供该剧集的链接。
Jarvis is a really interesting guy.
贾维斯是一个非常有趣的人。
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
I would love to hear that.
我很想听听这个。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
But if I may, I'd like to riff on that in a different way.
但如果可以的话，我想以不同的方式重复一下这一点。
I did spend some time wandering around, as many people do, and I think particularly for your young listeners and viewers who don't know, "Wow, could I ever be a scientist and develop new things, stuff like that?" Yes, you can.
我确实花了一些时间四处闲逛，就像很多人一样，我想特别是对于那些不知道“哇，我能成为一名科学家并开发新事物之类的东西吗？”的年轻听众和观众来说。是的，你可以。
And if you're messing around in your life trying this, trying that, and trying the other thing, definitely stick with it.
如果你在生活中尝试这个、尝试那个、尝试其他的事情，一定要坚持下去。
Keep looking for the thing that works for you.
继续寻找适合你的东西。
I really deeply believe that.
我真的深深地相信这一点。
You got to play around.
你得去玩玩。
You got to find what it is that works for you.
你必须找到适合你的东西。
Interestingly enough, at least it's interesting for me, I spent a lot of years studying the retina in a pure basic science, just curiosity driven research way, as you and I have both done in the past.
有趣的是，至少对我来说很有趣，我花了很多年的时间以纯基础科学的方式研究视网膜，只是好奇心驱动的研究方式，就像你和我过去所做的那样。
And as it turned out, I learned all the stuff I needed to know about the retina to develop a high fidelity adaptive retinal implant of the type that I'm talking about in that process, the technology, the stimulation, recording, figuring out the cell types, how do you stimulate, all this stuff.
事实证明，我学到了关于视网膜的所有知识，以开发我在该过程中正在谈论的那种类型的高保真自适应视网膜植入物，技术，刺激，记录，弄清楚细胞类型，如何刺激，所有这些东西。
I learned all that stuff, and I have come to a point in my life where I realize, wow, if somebody's going to do what I think needs to be done, which is to take everything we've learned about the retina and instantiate that in smart technology that can restore vision and do all the things we've been talking about, who are the people in the world who have the right training and background and know-how to do that stuff?
我学到了所有这些东西，我已经到了人生的一个阶段，我意识到，哇，如果有人要做我认为需要做的事情，那就是利用我们所学到的关于视网膜的一切，并在可以恢复视力并完成我们一直在谈论的所有事情的智能技术中实例化它，世界上有哪些人拥有正确的培训、背景和知识来做到这一点？
I'm one of them.
我是其中之一。
I know that.
我知道。
And it's totally by chance that I picked up and learned, or it seems by chance, that I picked up and learned the things that I need to know for this.
我学习并学习这完全是偶然的，或者看起来是偶然的，我学习并学习了我需要知道的东西。
But I definitely have the right know-how to do this based on all my training and the research that I've done.
但根据我所有的培训和所做的研究，我绝对拥有正确的专业知识来做到这一点。
And it feels accidental sometimes.
有时感觉很偶然。
I look back on my own history, I'm like, "How did I get here where this is obviously the thing I need to do?
我回顾自己的历史，我想，“我是怎么走到这一步的，这显然是我需要做的事情？
Was this on purpose?" It didn't seem like it was on purpose, but now I got to do this because I know what needs to be done, and it's something that needs to be done.
这是故意的吗？”看起来不像是故意的，但现在我必须这样做，因为我知道需要做什么，而且这是需要做的事情。
So that's my mission for the coming decade or so.
这就是我未来十年左右的使命。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wild.
狂野。
I knew you had this engineer, mathy, geeky neuroscience.
我知道你有一位工程师，数学，神经科学。
I don't want to say geeky because it may sound like I'm not right there-
我不想说“极客”，因为这听起来好像我不在那儿——
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
We love geeks
我们爱极客
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in the same raft with you, but I didn't know about this more free-spirited, move in all directions depending on what one feels in the moment, dancing EJ.
与你同舟共济，却不知道还有这样更自由奔放，随心所欲，跳着EJ。
It's very cool.
非常酷。
Are you still a absolute level 11 coffee snob?
你还是一个绝对的 11 级咖啡势利小人吗？
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Yeah.
是的。
I used to go to meetings, and EJ would bring his own coffee maker and coffee to meetings.
我过去常去开会，EJ 会带着他自己的咖啡机和咖啡去开会。
We're not talking about an espresso machine.
我们不是在谈论浓缩咖啡机。
We're talking about extreme levels of coffee snobbery.
我们谈论的是极端程度的咖啡势利。
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
A press pot.
压壶。
The correct ground coffee.
正确的研磨咖啡。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
The correct kind of press pot.
正确的压壶类型。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Good.
很好。
I expect nothing less.
我的期望丝毫不减。
Proof that not all circuits in the brain are neuroplastic, nor should they be.
证明并非大脑中的所有回路都是神经可塑性的，也不应该是。
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But to bridge off of that in a more serious way, despite the free exploration aspect to yourself, and that hopefully other people don't suppress, it seems like you really are good at knowing your taste.
但以更严肃的方式弥补这一点，尽管你自己有自由探索的方面，并且希望其他人不要压制，但看起来你确实很擅长了解自己的品味。
I think it was the great Marcus Meister, a colleague of ours who has also worked on the neural retina extensively, of course, who once said that there's a coding system in the brain that leads to either the perception, the feeling of yum, yuck, or meh, and that so much of life is being able to register that in terms of who you interact with and how, and the choices or problems to work on.
我认为是伟大的马库斯·梅斯特（Marcus Meister），我们的一位同事，当然，他也对神经视网膜进行了广泛的研究，他曾经说过，大脑中有一个编码系统，可以导致感知、“嗯”、“恶心”或“嗯”的感觉，而生活的大部分内容就是能够根据你与谁互动、如何互动、以及需要解决的选择或问题来记录这一点。
It seems like you have a very keen sense of, like, "Yes, that," and you move toward that.
看起来你有一种非常敏锐的感觉，比如“是的，就是那个”，然后你就朝着那个方向前进。
You've always been very goal-directed since the time I've known you, and you've picked such a huge problem, but going about it in such a precise way, hence the analogy to the space mission.
自从我认识你以来，你一直非常有目标导向，你选择了一个如此巨大的问题，但以如此精确的方式解决它，因此类似于太空任务。
So when you experience that May I ask, does it come about as a thought?
那么，当你体验到这种情况时，请问，它是作为一个想法出现的吗？
Like, "Oh, yeah, that has to be the thing," or is it like a whole body sensation?
就像，“哦，是的，一定是这样的”，或者是一种全身的感觉？
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
What a great question.
多么好的问题啊。
I love that question.
我喜欢这个问题。
I have two things to say to that.
对此我有两件事要说。
The first is that for me, it's all feeling.
首先，对我来说，一切都是感觉。
I don't make hardly any decisions out of thoughts.
我几乎不会凭自己的想法做出任何决定。
I think, I process, I put it all into the hopper, and the hopper comes out and spits out a feeling.
我想，我处理，我把它全部放进料斗里，料斗出来，吐出一种感觉。
And the feeling's like, "Yeah, that's the thing to do." 100%.
感觉就像是，“是的，那就是要做的事。” 100%。
And I know not everybody's like me.
我知道不是每个人都像我一样。
Lots of people aren't like me, and particularly lots of scientists aren't like me.
很多人不像我，尤其是很多科学家不像我。
But I definitely roll that way.
但我绝对会那样做。
That is absolutely how I work.
这绝对是我的工作方式。
There's something that's related to that that I think is philosophically and in terms of personal development and spiritual development stuff, I think is quite relevant, that I think you'll relate to.
我认为有一些与哲学相关的东西，就个人发展和精神发展而言，我认为非常相关，我认为你会涉及到。
My favorite aphorism is know thyself, the oracle.
我最喜欢的格言是认识你自己，神谕。
Because if you don't know yourself, you can't do anything.
因为如果你不了解自己，你就什么也做不了。
You don't even know where to go.
你甚至不知道该去哪里。
You can't even orient yourself at the next thing in your life.
你甚至无法为自己人生中的下一件事定位。
And I think it deserves to have two corollaries that go with it, or addenda.
我认为它应该有两个与之相伴的推论或附录。
Know thyself, be thyself, which is not easy.
认识你自己，做你自己，这并不容易。
It's not easy to really be yourself in this world.
在这个世界上真正做自己并不容易。
There are all sorts of things telling us to be something other than what we are.
有各种各样的事情告诉我们要成为不同于我们本身的人。
And the third one is love thyself.
第三个是爱自己。
And you know, having gone through much exploration of yourself and your life and your values and me too, and all the things we've talked about over time, that's not easy.
你知道，在对你自己、你的生活、你的价值观和我以及我们随着时间的推移讨论的所有事情进行了大量探索之后，这并不容易。
Some of us are not necessarily programmed to love ourselves, and it's a skill.
我们中的一些人不一定天生就会爱自己，但这是一种技能。
And I try my best to be with those three things all the time.
我尽我最大的努力始终与这三件事在一起。
Know thyself, be thyself, love thyself.
认识你自己，做你自己，爱你自己。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Could you elaborate a little bit more on your process for the third?
您能详细说明一下第三次的流程吗？
This is a concept that has been very challenging for me and I think for many other people.
这个概念对我和其他许多人来说都是非常具有挑战性的。
And it gets kind of opaque when it starts getting conflated with self-respect and et cetera, like loving thyself.
当它开始与自尊等（比如爱自己）混为一谈时，它就会变得有点不透明。
Do you have practices?
你有实践吗？
Do you meditate?
你冥想吗？
Do you journal?
你写日记吗？
Do you spend time trying to cultivate a love for self?
你花时间尝试培养对自己的爱吗？
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
Yeah.
是的。
I meditate in an informal way in the morning with my coffee.
早上我会一边喝咖啡一边进行非正式的冥想。
Every morning, I make a fantastic cup of coffee.
每天早上，我都会煮一杯美味的咖啡。
And I sit with it-
我和它坐在一起——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I believe you
我相信你
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
...
...
for five or 10 minutes and take in my world as it's coming toward me, and as I come into the day and come into consciousness, I meditate like that.
花五到十分钟，感受我的世界，当它向我走来时，当我进入白天并进入意识时，我就这样冥想。
And I have a Ashtanga-related yoga practice.
我有一个与阿斯汤加相关的瑜伽练习。
Many of your viewers and listeners will know about Ashtanga yoga.
许多观众和听众都会了解阿斯汤加瑜伽。
It's a very physical, spiritual, traditional yoga practice that has a deep meditative and breath-focused component.
这是一种非常注重身体和精神的传统瑜伽练习，具有深度冥想和专注于呼吸的成分。
I know you've had lots of episodes and discussion about the breath and the importance of that for awareness.
我知道你们已经有很多关于呼吸的剧集和讨论以及呼吸对于意识的重要性。
At the end of many Western yoga practices, you end with namaste, which is expressing your respect for the connectedness of what is in front of you to the whole universe, and what's common to all of us and everything.
在许多西方瑜伽练习结束时，你都会以合十礼结束，这表达了你对眼前事物与整个宇宙的联系的尊重，以及对我们所有人和一切事物的共同之处的尊重。
And I usually practice yoga by myself.
我通常自己练习瑜伽。
And when I say namaste at the end of my yoga practice, a part of that is to myself.
当我在瑜伽练习结束时说合十礼时，其中一部分是对我自己说的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Earlier when I asked you about how you guide your decisions, you said it's all feel, and you provided a beautiful description as to how and why that occurs for you, and your trust in that.
早些时候，当我问你如何指导你的决定时，你说这都是感觉，并且你提供了一个漂亮的描述，说明了这种情况如何以及为何发生在你身上，以及你对此的信任。
I don't recall you saying whether or not the feeling is in your head or it's a whole body feeling.
我不记得你说过这种感觉是在你的头脑中还是全身的感觉。
Does it have a particular signature to it that you'd be willing to share?
它有您愿意分享的特定签名吗？
Is it excitement that makes you want to get up and move, or is it a stillness?
是兴奋让你想要站起来走动，还是因为寂静？
I ask because we've been talking throughout today's episode about the precision of neural coding and these signals that are at the level of individual cells, and yet when it comes to feeling, we actually have a pretty crude map, and certainly a deficit in language to explain what this feeling thing is.
我问这个问题是因为我们在今天的节目中一直在谈论神经编码的精确性和这些位于单个细胞水平的信号，但当谈到感觉时，我们实际上有一个相当粗糙的地图，并且肯定缺乏语言来解释这种感觉是什么。
And I know that people experience life and feelings differently, but I think it's often insightful when somebody with your understanding of the nervous system and yourself can share a bit.
我知道人们对生活和感受的体验不同，但我认为，当像你一样了解神经系统和你自己的人能够分享一些东西时，这通常是富有洞察力的。
What does it feel like?
感觉如何？
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
I love that question, and it relates to something you said to me years ago.
我喜欢这个问题，它与你多年前对我说过的话有关。
What it feels like is ease.
给人的感觉就是轻松。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hmm.
嗯。
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
And I remember years ago when we were talking about challenging things that each of us was facing in our lives, you said to me something like, "I wish for you some ease with all of this." It was very moving, touching, as that's what a good friend does, is to give that to somebody who they love.
我记得几年前，当我们谈论我们每个人在生活中面临的挑战时，你对我说，“我希望你能轻松应对这一切。”这是非常令人感动、感人的，因为这就是一个好朋友所做的，就是把它送给他们所爱的人。
And it sticks with me probably 10 years later.
大概 10 年后，它仍然萦绕在我的心头。
So, the feeling I feel when I'm on the path that makes sense for me is ease.
所以，当我走在对我来说有意义的道路上时，我的感觉是轻松。
It's just, "Okay.
只是，“好吧。
This is it."
就是这样。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I love that.
我喜欢那个。
I don't actually recall that specific conversation because we had many, many conversations sitting in your yard in San Diego on those plastic chairs with my bulldog, Costello, hanging out.
我实际上不记得那次具体的谈话，因为我们坐在圣地亚哥你院子里的塑料椅子上，和我的斗牛犬科斯特洛闲逛，进行了很多很多谈话。
By the way, folks, EJ knew Costello, my bulldog mastiff, very well, and He was not a huge fan of dogs prior to meeting Costello, but Costello flipped him.
顺便说一句，各位，EJ 非常了解我的斗牛犬獒科斯特洛，在见到科斯特洛之前，他并不是狗的忠实粉丝，但科斯特洛把他甩了。
He became at least a Costello lover.
他至少成为了科斯特洛的情人。
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
I love Costello.
我爱科斯特洛。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
I'll never forget him.
我永远不会忘记他。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
He embodied ease.
他体现了轻松。
Yeah.
是的。
He did nothing but sleep and eat.
他除了睡觉和吃饭什么也不做。
He embodied energetic efficiency.
他体现了精力充沛的效率。
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
And everybody loves him.
每个人都爱他。
Everybody who gets to be in the same room with him loves him.
每个与他共处一室的人都喜欢他。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
The people I just spoke to in your setup here-
我刚刚在你的设置中与我交谈过的人-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
...
...
your colleagues.
你的同事。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
Yeah, I could see why.
是的，我明白为什么。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
And you have a beautiful photo of him hanging there.
你还挂着一张他的漂亮照片。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
He's a-
他是一个——
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
What a creature
什么生物啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
a great memory, definitely embedded in my nervous system.
一段美好的记忆，绝对融入了我的神经系统。
I often choke up when I think about him, but I want to be clear, because I've already cried once about him on a different podcast.
当我想到他时，我经常哽咽，但我想澄清一下，因为我已经在另一个播客上为他哭过一次。
I don't want to do that today.
我今天不想这样做。
They're not tears of sadness.
它们不是悲伤的泪水。
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
No.
不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's this crazy thing like I love him so much, I just kind of want to explode.
这是一件疯狂的事情，就像我如此爱他，我简直想爆炸。
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So damn it, Costello got me again.
该死的，科斯特洛又抓住了我。
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And publicly, again.
再次公开。
So-
所以——
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
I'm glad to witness it
我很高兴见证它
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
he's someplace laughing.
他在某个地方在笑。
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So, I love that.
所以，我喜欢这样。
And I think, do you think it's worth kids and adults learning to recognize those kind of states, those signals that tell them they're on the right path by paying attention to, I don't know, like we said, there's sort of a deficit of language, like ease is in the body, ease is in the mind.
我认为，你认为孩子和成年人值得学习识别这些状态，那些告诉他们走在正确道路上的信号，我不知道，就像我们说的，语言存在某种缺陷，就像身体轻松，心灵轻松。
It's the release of...
这是释放...
It's not even worth exploring verbally because it's such a whole body, whole nervous system thing.
它甚至不值得口头探索，因为它涉及整个身体、整个神经系统。
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
Yeah.
是的。
I feel like I actually was thinking about it.
我感觉我真的在思考这个问题。
I was giving advice to a young fellow who is applying to graduate school recently, and had a Zoom call with him about stuff.
我最近给一位正在申请研究生院的年轻人提供建议，并与他进行了 Zoom 电话讨论。
And he had received some good advice from some other people, and then I gave him some advice.
他从其他人那里得到了一些好的建议，然后我给了他一些建议。
And I saw him speak and emote and with body language drop into like, "Oh, yeah, that makes sense.
我看到他说话、表情和肢体语言，比如，“哦，是的，这是有道理的。
Yeah." That feeling.
是的。”那种感觉。
Of course.
当然。
Kind of the of course.
有点当然。
And I think if you can teach people to do that, I don't know if the verbal communication of that is going to, like you said, is that going to do anything?
我认为，如果你可以教人们这样做，我不知道口头交流是否会像你说的那样，会起到任何作用？
But can you at least observe it in them as a teacher, as a mentor, and do things and when you know when you've done it because you see them drop into ease.
但你至少可以作为一个老师、一个导师在他们身上观察到这一点，并做一些事情，当你知道你什么时候完成了，因为你看到他们变得轻松自在。
Do you think you can detect ease in people by looking at them and seeing their body language and everything?
你认为你可以通过观察人们、观察他们的肢体语言和一切来发现他们的轻松程度吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's got to be an amalgam of different things.
它必须是不同事物的混合体。
The cadence of their breathing, their pupil size.
他们呼吸的节奏，瞳孔的大小。
It's not worth dissecting.
不值得剖析。
This is an experiment-
这是一个实验——
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I would not want to run.
我不想跑。
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But I wouldn't want to bring people into a laboratory and figure out what pupils of the eye dynamics combined with certain rhythms of breathing, relaxation of the shoulders, because-
但我不想带人们进入实验室并弄清楚瞳孔的动态与某些呼吸节律、肩膀的放松相结合，因为——
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
It's too beautiful for that, isn't it?
这太漂亮了，不是吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's too beautiful and it's too nuanced, and it's different when we're in motion versus when we're lying down.
它太美丽了，太细致了，而且当我们运动时和躺着时，它是不同的。
Science is capable of a great many things, but I don't think needs to be pointed at every aspect of human experience.
科学能够做很多事情，但我认为不需要指出人类经验的每个方面。
I think some of these things are simply worth allowing to just be.
我认为其中一些事情是值得允许的。
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
Do you feel the same way about when you have a feeling about a person, you meet somebody, and their energy just captures you?
当你对一个人有感觉，遇到某人，而他们的能量吸引了你时，你是否也有同样的感觉？
It's like, "Wow, what a cool person.
就像，“哇，多么酷的一个人啊。
What amazing energy." Do you want to know the science behind that?
多么惊人的能量啊。”你想知道这背后的科学原理吗？
I don't.
我不知道。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, I don't.
不，我不。
I think that the word that comes to mind when I experience somebody like that or something like a beautiful animal, or you see something, the movement of something, or a beautiful piece of music or something is, the word just behold.
我认为，当我经历这样的人或美丽的动物之类的东西，或者你看到某物，某物的运动，或一首美丽的音乐或某物时，我脑海中浮现的词就是“看”这个词。
Yeah.
是的。
I just want to stop and take in as much of it as possible.
我只想停下来，尽可能多地吸收它。
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
And here's something I know you've done, but I'm checking to make sure I really got this right.
我知道你已经做了以下事情，但我正在检查以确保我确实做对了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Uh-oh.
呃哦。
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
Because I've done it, too.
因为我也做过。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Uh-oh.
呃哦。
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
Because we sometimes get human retinas for doing our experiments, the first thing that happens when we get the human retina, we bring it back to our lab.
因为我们有时会得到人类视网膜来进行实验，当我们得到人类视网膜时，发生的第一件事就是把它带回实验室。
It's a big production.
这是一个大制作。
Everybody's getting ready to go.
大家都准备出发了。
A whole bunch of moving parts going on.
一大堆活动部件正在发生。
We have to open up the eye and look into it to see what condition it's in.
我们必须睁开眼睛观察它，看看它处于什么状态。
And it's typically with a dissecting scope on a chair, and it's open, sitting on a chair, dissecting scope, looking down, look into the eye.
通常，椅子上有一个解剖镜，它是打开的，坐在椅子上，解剖镜，向下看，看着眼睛。
It is so beautiful.
它是如此美丽。
It's breathtaking.
真是令人叹为观止。
Each time.
每次。
I've looked at the retina I don't know how many times.
我已经不知道看了多少次视网膜了。
Each time, wow, this is what's initiating all the visual experiences I've ever had in my life, or that person ever had in their life, right?
每次，哇，这就是我一生中或那个人一生中所拥有的所有视觉体验的开始，对吗？
And the beauty just keeps coming.
美丽不断涌现。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I love it.
我喜欢它。
And I love it because you're talking about a behold moment that isn't just to entertain your curiosity.
我喜欢它，因为你谈论的是一个观看时刻，而不仅仅是为了满足你的好奇心。
Sure, it's that.
当然，就是这样。
You want to understand how the brain works.
你想了解大脑是如何工作的。
But also, a behold moment that leads from that desire to understand to a deep level of understanding now, after more than two decades of exploration, to a mission and service to humanity.
而且，经过二十多年的探索，一个令人惊叹的时刻从渴望理解到现在的深刻理解，再到为人类服务的使命和服务。
Restore vision to the blind, develop neuroprostheses and other types of neuroengineering technologies that will allow the human brain to function better than it would otherwise.
恢复盲人的视力，开发神经假体和其他类型的神经工程技术，使人类大脑比其他技术更好地发挥作用。
So there's real purpose there, too.
所以那里也有真正的目的。
So it represents a kind of a perfect ecosystem of, it's not just about delighting in something and spending one's time there.
所以它代表了一种完美的生态系统，不仅仅是喜欢某件事并在那里度过时光。
There's a real mission there.
那里有一个真正的使命。
So, I love it.
所以，我喜欢它。
Well, EJ, Dr. Chichonni ski.
嗯，EJ，Chichonni 博士滑雪。
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
Dr. Huberman.
休伯曼博士。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I rarely get called that these days.
这些天我很少被这样称呼。
When I invited you here today, I was absolutely sure that our listeners and viewers were going to get a absolutely world-class explanation of how the nervous system works, and the retina and the visual system in particular, and that it would be delivered with the utmost clarity, which it was.
当我今天邀请你们来到这里时，我绝对确信我们的听众和观众将获得关于神经系统，特别是视网膜和视觉系统如何工作的绝对世界级的解释，并且将以最清晰的方式提供，事实确实如此。
So, thank you.
所以，谢谢你。
I know there's been so much learning in and around that, and you beautifully framed for us what that means in terms of the larger understanding of how the nervous system works, and what you and other laboratories are now in a position to really do with that information And the technologies that are being built and that will be built.
我知道在这方面和周围有很多学习，你为我们完美地描述了这对于我们更广泛地理解神经系统如何工作意味着什么，以及你和其他实验室现在能够真正利用这些信息做什么以及正在构建和将要构建的技术。
And the purpose in bringing you here today was just that, but not that alone.
今天带你们来到这里的目的就是为了这个，但不仅仅是这个。
I think we hear so much about the brain and how it works, and everyone wants to have tools and protocols to function better.
我认为我们对大脑及其工作原理了解得太多，每个人都希望拥有工具和协议来更好地发挥作用。
But it's clear that the work that you're doing is headed in a direction that's going to vastly expand the possibilities for sake of treating human disease and for expanding human experience.
但很明显，你们正在做的工作正朝着一个方向发展，即极大地扩展治疗人类疾病和扩大人类经验的可能性。
I'm certain of that.
我确信这一点。
What I did not expect, however, was that when I wrote down one bullet point, well, actually two, I wrote, "Still a coffee snob?" Question mark.
然而，我没想到的是，当我写下一个要点时，好吧，实际上是两个，我写道：“仍然是一个咖啡势利小人吗？”问号。
The answer is yes.
答案是肯定的。
And yoga.
还有瑜伽。
That we would end up in territory where you would share some of your experience that I myself was not aware of about this, a bit of a wandering of three different PhD programs and of this cultivation of an intuitive sense of beauty and taste and preference that, the way you described it, takes you out of your rational mind and into the aspects of your nervous system that just really act as a compass toward what is absolutely right for you.
我们最终会进入一个领域，你会分享你的一些我自己不知道的经历，在三个不同的博士课程中徘徊，以及这种对美感、品味和偏好的直觉培养，按照你所描述的方式，让你脱离理性思维，进入神经系统的各个方面，这些方面真正充当指南针，找到绝对适合你的东西。
And we're all so lucky that what's absolutely right for you turns out to also be what's absolutely right and beneficial for the world.
我们都很幸运，对你来说绝对正确的事情也对世界来说是绝对正确和有益的。
So thank you for coming here today.
谢谢你今天来到这里。
Thank you for sharing your knowledge and your heart, and for doing it with such an incredible degree of openness and respect.
感谢您分享您的知识和内心，并以如此令人难以置信的开放和尊重的态度来做这件事。
So thank you so much.
非常感谢。
Dr. E.J.
E.J.博士
Chichilnisky:
奇奇尔尼斯基：
Thank you, Andrew.
谢谢你，安德鲁。
It's a great pleasure.
真是太高兴了。
Really appreciate it.
真的很感激。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. EJ Chichilnisky.
感谢您参加今天与 EJ Chichilnisky 博士的讨论。
To learn more about the work in the Chichilnisky Lab and to find links to EJ's social media handles, please see the links in the show note captions.
要了解有关 Chichilnisky 实验室工作的更多信息并查找 EJ 社交媒体句柄的链接，请参阅节目注释标题中的链接。
If you're learning from and/or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel.
如果您正在学习和/或喜欢此播客，请订阅我们的 YouTube 频道。
That's a terrific zero-cost way to support us.
这是支持我们的绝佳零成本方式。
In addition, please subscribe to the podcast on both Spotify and Apple.
此外，请在 Spotify 和 Apple 上订阅该播客。
And on both Spotify and Apple, you can leave us up to a five-star review.
在 Spotify 和 Apple 上，您都可以给我们五星级的评价。
Please check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode.
请查看今天节目开头和整个节目中提到的赞助商。
That's the best way to support this podcast.
这是支持这个播客的最佳方式。
If you have questions for me or comments about the podcast or guests you'd like me to consider or topics you'd like me to consider for the Huberman Lab podcast, please put those in the comments section on YouTube.
如果您对我有疑问，或者对您希望我考虑的播客或嘉宾有意见，或者您希望我为 Huberman Lab 播客考虑主题，请将这些意见放在 YouTube 的评论部分。
I do read all the comments.
我确实阅读了所有评论。
If you're not already following me on social media, I am hubermanlab on all social media platforms.
如果您还没有在社交媒体上关注我，我是所有社交媒体平台上的 hubermanlab。
So that's Instagram, X, Twitter, LinkedIn, Facebook, and Threads.
这就是 Instagram、X、Twitter、LinkedIn、Facebook 和 Threads。
And at all of those places, I discuss science and science-related tools, some of which overlap with the content of the Huberman Lab podcast, but much of which are distinct from the content of the Huberman Lab podcast.
在所有这些地方，我讨论了科学和与科学相关的工具，其中一些与胡伯曼实验室播客的内容重叠，但其中大部分与胡伯曼实验室播客的内容不同。
So again, it's hubermanlab on all social media channels.
再说一次，所有社交媒体渠道上都是 hubermanlab。
If you haven't already subscribed to our Neural Network Newsletter, the Neural Network Newsletter is our zero-cost monthly newsletter that has podcast summaries and protocols in the form of brief one to three-page PDFs that spell out for you in very clear terms how, for instance, to optimize your physical health, how to optimize dopamine, how to improve your sleep, how to learn better through neuroplasticity, deliberate cold exposure, heat exposure, and on and on.
如果您还没有订阅我们的神经网络时事通讯，神经网络时事通讯是我们的零成本月度时事通讯，其中包含一到三页 PDF 形式的播客摘要和协议，以非常清晰的方式为您阐明如何优化身体健康、如何优化多巴胺、如何改善睡眠、如何通过神经可塑性、刻意的冷暴露、热暴露等来更好地学习。
Again, all completely zero cost.
再次强调，一切完全零成本。
To sign up for the Neural Network Newsletter, you simply go to hubermanlab.com, go to the Menu tab, scroll down to Newsletter, and enter your email.
要注册神经网络新闻通讯，您只需访问 hubermanlab.com，转到“菜单”选项卡，向下滚动到新闻通讯，然后输入您的电子邮件。
We do not share your email with anybody.
我们不会与任何人分享您的电子邮件。
Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. EJ Chichilnisky.
再次感谢您参加今天与 EJ Chichilnisky 博士的讨论。
And last but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.
最后但并非最不重要的一点是，感谢您对科学的兴趣。