Dr. Eddie Chang: The Science of Learning & Speaking Languages

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.

欢迎来到休伯曼实验室播客，我们在这里讨论科学和基于科学的日常生活工具。

I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.

我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。

Today, my guest is Dr. Eddie Chang.

今天，我的嘉宾是Eddie Chang 博士。

Dr. Eddie Chang is the chair of the neurosurgery department at the University of California at San Francisco.

Eddie Chang 博士是加州大学旧金山分校神经外科系主任。

Dr. Chang's clinical group focuses on the treatment of movement disorders, including epilepsy.

张医生的临床小组专注于运动障碍的治疗，包括癫痫。

He is also a world expert in the treatment of speech disorders and relieving paralysis that prevents speech and other forms of movement and communication.

他也是治疗言语障碍和缓解妨碍言语及其他形式的运动和交流的瘫痪的世界专家。

Indeed, his laboratory is credited with discovering ways to allow people who have fully locked-in syndrome, that is, who cannot speak or move, to communicate through computers and AI devices in order to be able to speak to others in their world and understand what others are saying to them.

事实上，他的实验室因发现了一些方法，可以让患有完全锁定综合症的人（即无法说话或移动的人）通过计算机和人工智能设备进行交流，以便能够与他们世界中的其他人交谈并理解其他人对他们说的话。

It is a truly remarkable achievement that we discuss today.

我们今天讨论的确实是一项了不起的成就。

In addition to his discoveries about critical periods, which are periods of time during one's life when one can learn things, in particular languages, with great ease as opposed to later in life, and we talk about the basis of things like bilingualism and trilingualism.

除了他对关键时期的发现之外，关键时期是一个人一生中可以比晚年更轻松地学习事物（特别是语言）的时期，我们还讨论了双语和三语等事物的基础。

We talk about how the brain controls movement of the very muscles that allow for speech and language, and how those can be modified over time.

我们讨论大脑如何控制允许言语和语言的肌肉的运动，以及这些肌肉如何随着时间的推移而改变。

We also talk about stutter, and we talk about a number of aspects of speech and language that give insight into not just how we create this incredible thing called speech or how we understand speech and language, but how the brain works more generally.

我们还谈论口吃，我们谈论言语和语言的许多方面，这些方面不仅让我们深入了解我们如何创造称为言语的令人难以置信的事物或我们如何理解言语和语言，还让我们深入了解大脑如何更广泛地工作。

Dr. Chang is also one of the world leaders in bioengineering.

张博士也是生物工程领域的世界领袖之一。

That is, the creation of devices that allow the brain to function at super physiological levels and that can allow people with various syndromes and disorders to overcome their deficits.

也就是说，创造能够让大脑在超生理水平上发挥作用的设备，并且可以让患有各种综合症和疾病的人克服他们的缺陷。

So if you are somebody who is interested in how the brain works normally, how it breaks down, and how it can be repaired, and if you are interested in speech and language, reading, and comprehension of information of any kind, today's episode ought to include some information of deep interest to you.

因此，如果您对大脑如何正常工作、如何崩溃以及如何修复感兴趣，并且对言语、阅读和理解任何类型的信息感兴趣，那么今天的节目应该包含一些您深感兴趣的信息。

Dr. Chang is indeed the top of his field in terms of understanding these issues of how the brain encodes speech and language and creates speech and language, and as I mentioned, movement disorders and epilepsy.

在理解大脑如何编码言语和语言以及创造言语和语言以及正如我提到的运动障碍和癫痫等问题方面，张博士确实是其领域的顶尖人物。

We even talk about things such as the ketogenic diet, the future of companies like Neuralink, which are interested in bioengineering and augmenting the human brain, and much more.

我们甚至谈论生酮饮食、Neuralink 等对生物工程和增强人类大脑感兴趣的公司的未来等等。

One thing that I would like to note is that in addition to being a world-class neuroscience researcher and world-class clinician neurosurgeon and chair of neurosurgery, Dr. Eddie Chang has also been a close personal friend of mine since we were nine years old.

我想指出的一件事是，Eddie Chang 医生除了是一位世界一流的神经科学研究人员、世界一流的临床神经外科医生和神经外科主任之外，从我们九岁起就一直是我的亲密朋友。

We attended elementary school together, and we actually had a science club when we were nine years old, focused on a very particular topic.

我们一起上小学，九岁时我们实际上成立了一个科学俱乐部，专注于一个非常特殊的主题。

You'll have to listen in to today's episode to discover what that topic was and what membership to that club required.

您必须收听今天的节目才能了解该主题是什么以及该俱乐部的会员资格要求。

That aside, Dr. Chang is an absolute phenom with respect to his scientific prowess, that is, both his research and his clinical abilities, and he's one of these rare individuals that whenever he opens his mouth, we learn.

除此之外，就他的科学实力而言，即他的研究和他的临床能力而言，张博士绝对是一位杰出人物，他是每当他开口时我们都会了解到的稀有人物之一。

Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.

在开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。

It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public.

然而，我的愿望和努力的一部分是向公众提供有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本消费者信息。

In keeping with that theme, I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast.

为了与这个主题保持一致，我要感谢今天播客的赞助商。

And now for my discussion with Dr. Eddie Chang.

现在我与 Eddie Chang 博士进行了讨论。

Eddie, welcome.

艾迪，欢迎。

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

Hi.

嗨。

Hi, Andrew.

嗨，安德鲁。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Great to be here with you.

很高兴和你在一起。

This has been a long time coming.

这已经是很长一段时间了。

Just to come clean, we've known each other since we were nine years old.

坦白说，我们从九岁起就认识了。

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But then there was a long gap in which we didn't talk to one another.

但后来有很长一段时间我们没有互相交谈。

I heard things about you, and presumably you heard a thing or two about me, for better or for worse.

我听说过关于你的事情，想必你也听说过关于我的一两件事，无论好坏。

And then we reconnected years later when I was a PhD student and you were a medical student.

几年后，当我还是一名博士生，而你是一名医学生时，我们又重新建立了联系。

We literally ran into each other in the halls of University of California, San Francisco, where you're now the Chair of Neurosurgery.

我们确实是在旧金山加利福尼亚大学的大厅里相遇的，您现在是该大学的神经外科主任。

So it all comes full circle.

这样一切就圆满了。

When you were at UCSF, you were working with Mike Merzenich, and I know that name might not be familiar to a lot of people, but he's sort of synonymous with neuroplasticity, the ability of the brain and nervous system to change in response to experience.

当你在加州大学旧金山分校时，你与迈克·梅泽尼奇（Mike Merzenich）一起工作，我知道这个名字可能对很​​多人来说并不熟悉，但他有点像神经可塑性的代名词，即大脑和神经系统根据经验而改变的能力。

So for our listeners, I would just love for you to give a brief overview of what you were doing at that time, because I find that work so fascinating, and it really points to some of the things that can promote and maybe hinder our brain's ability to change.

因此，对于我们的听众来说，我希望您能简要概述一下您当时所做的事情，因为我发现这项工作非常有趣，而且它确实指出了一些可以促进或可能阻碍我们大脑改变能力的事情。

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

Oh, wow.

哦，哇。

That's fantastic.

太棒了。

So we did bump into each other serendipitously back then, and at the time, I was a medical student at UCSF studying with Mike Merzenich.

所以我们当时确实偶然相遇了，当时我是加州大学旧金山分校的一名医学生，师从迈克·梅泽尼奇(Mike Merzenich)。

In particular, I was studying how the brain organizes when you have patterns of sound.

特别是，我正在研究当你有声音模式时大脑如何组织。

And in particular, we were studying the brain of rodents and trying to understand how different sound patterns organize the frequency representation from low to middle to high-frequency maps in the brains of baby rodents.

特别是，我们正在研究啮齿动物的大脑，并试图了解不同的声音模式如何组织幼年啮齿动物大脑中从低频到中频到高频的频率表示。

And one of the things that I was very interested in was trying to understand how the patterns of the natural environment, let's say the vocalizations of the environment that the rat pups were raised in or just the natural sounds that they hear, how that shapes the structure of the brain.

我非常感兴趣的一件事是试图了解自然环境的模式，比如说幼鼠生长的环境的发声或它们听到的自然声音，如何塑造大脑的结构。

And one of the things we did was to try and experiment where we raised some of these rat pups in white noise, continuous white noise, that was essentially masking all of those environmental sounds.

我们所做的一件事就是尝试和实验，我们在白噪音中饲养一些幼鼠，连续的白噪音，这基本上掩盖了所有这些环境声音。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And what was the consequence of animals being raised in white noise environment?

而在白噪音环境下饲养动物会产生什么后果呢？

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

Well, one of the things that we didn't expect but we found, which is quite striking, is that there's this early period in brain development where we're very susceptible to the patterns that we hear or see.

好吧，我们没有预料到但我们发现的一件事非常惊人，那就是在大脑发育的早期阶段，我们非常容易受到我们听到或看到的模式的影响。

In neuroscience, we call this a critical period or a sensitive period.

在神经科学中，我们称之为关键期或敏感期。

And we have this for our eyes, but we also have it for our ears.

我们的眼睛有这个，但我们的耳朵也有它。

And one of the most striking examples of this is that any human can essentially grow up in a culture where they hear different speech sounds from one language to another, and it's like after a couple of years, you lose sensitivity to sounds that are not part of your native language, and you have high sensitivity for the languages of your native culture.

最引人注目的例子之一是，任何人本质上都可以在一种文化中长大，在这种文化中，他们会听到从一种语言到另一种语言的不同语音，就像几年后，你对不属于你的母语的声音失去敏感性，而你对你的母语文化的语言有很高的敏感性。

And that's pretty extraordinary that human brain has that flexibility, yet at the same time has that specialization for language.

人类大脑具有这种灵活性，同时又具有语言的专业性，这是非常了不起的。

And so we were trying to think about how do we model this, for example, in rodents who obviously don't speak, but we're just understanding how sounds and environmental sounds modulate and organize the auditory cortex.

因此，我们试图思考如何对此进行建模，例如，在显然不会说话的啮齿动物中，但我们只是了解声音和环境声音如何调节和组织听觉皮层。

And one of the things that we found that was quite striking was that if you basically mask environmental sounds from these rat pups, the critical period, this sensitive period where it's open to plasticity, it's open to change, it's open to reorganization, that window can stay open much, much longer.

我们发现非常引人注目的一件事是，如果你基本上掩盖这些老鼠幼崽的环境声音，那么关键时期，这个敏感时期，它对可塑性、对变化、对重组开放，这个窗口可以保持打开的时间长得多。

And in one way it sounds like that's a good thing, but on the other hand, it's also a retardation.

从一方面来说，这听起来是一件好事，但另一方面，这也是一种迟缓。

It slowed the maturation of the auditory cortex.

它减缓了听觉皮层的成熟。

It was ready to close when these rat pups were really young, but by raising them in white noise, we found out that you could keep it open for months beyond the time period that it normally closes.

当这些老鼠幼崽还很小的时候，它就已经准备好关闭了，但是通过在白噪音中饲养它们，我们发现你可以将它保持打开状态，比它通常关闭的时间长几个月。

And so I think one of the things it taught me was that it's not just about the genetic programming that specifies some of this sensitive period, but it's also a little bit about the nature of the sounds that we hear that help keep that window for the critical period open and closed.

因此，我认为它教会我的一件事是，这不仅仅是关于指定某些敏感时期的基因编程，而且还与我们听到的声音的性质有关，这些声音有助于在关键时期保持该窗口的打开和关闭。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It's fascinating, and I know it's difficult to make a direct leap from animal research to human research, but if we could speculate a little bit, I can imagine that some people grow up in homes where there's a lot of shouting and a lot of inflection.

这很有趣，我知道从动物研究直接跨越到人类研究是很困难的，但如果我们能稍微推测一下，我可以想象有些人是在充满喊叫和变化的家庭中长大的。

Maybe people are very verbose.

也许人们很啰嗦。

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Maybe others grow up in a home where it's quieter and more peaceful.

也许其他人在一个更安静、更平和的家庭中长大。

Some people are going to grow up in cities.

有些人将在城市长大。

I just came back from New York City, it's like all night long there's honking and sirens, and it's just nonstop.

我刚从纽约回来，就像整夜都有喇叭声和警笛声，而且不间断。

And then I return here where it's quite quiet at night.

然后我回到这里，那里晚上很安静。

Can we imagine that the human brain is going to be shaped differently depending on whether or not one grows up in one environment or another?

我们能否想象，根据一个人是否在一种环境或另一种环境中长大，人脑的形状会有所不同？

And would that impact their tendency to speak in a certain way as well as hear in a certain way?

这会影响他们以某种方式说话和以某种方式聆听的倾向吗？

What do we know about that?

我们对此了解多少？

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

Well, I think that from my perspective, it's really clear that those sounds that we are exposed to from the very earliest time, even in utero, in the womb, where the sound is hearing the mother or father or friends around while in the womb actually will influence how these things organize.

嗯，我认为从我的角度来看，很明显，我们从最早的时候就接触到的那些声音，即使是在子宫里，在子宫里，在子宫里听到母亲、父亲或朋友周围的声音实际上会影响这些事物的组织方式。

And so there's no question that the sounds that we hear are going to have some influence, and those sounds are going to structure the way that those neural networks actually lay down and will forever influence how you hear sounds.

因此，毫无疑问，我们听到的声音将会产生一些影响，这些声音将构建这些神经网络实际放置的方式，并将永远影响你听到声音的方式。

And speech and language is probably one of the most profound examples of that.

言语和语言可能是最深刻的例子之一。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I get a lot of questions about the use of white noise during sleep.

我收到很多关于睡眠期间使用白噪音的问题。

In particular, people want to know whether or not using a white noise machine or a machine or a program that makes the sound of waves, for instance, if it assists their infant in sleeping, is it going to be bad for them because it's flooding the auditory system with a bunch of essentially white noise or disorganized noise?

特别是，人们想知道使用白噪声机器或发出波浪声的机器或程序是否有助于婴儿睡眠，是否会对他们有害，因为它会用一堆本质上是白噪声或杂乱的噪声淹没听觉系统？

Do we have an answer to that question?

这个问题我们有答案吗？

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

Not yet.

还没有。

I think that what you're asking is a really important question because parents are using white noise generators almost universally now, and for good reasons.

我认为你问的是一个非常重要的问题，因为现在父母几乎普遍使用白噪声发生器，并且有充分的理由。

It is hard to have kids up at night.

晚上养孩子很难。

I've got three kids of my own and was very tempted to think about how to use some of these tools to just soothe them and get them to bed, especially when I was so tired and exhausted.

我自己有三个孩子，我很想考虑如何使用其中一些工具来安抚他们并让他们上床睡觉，尤其是当我如此疲倦和疲惫时。

But I think that there is a cost to think a little bit about.

但我认为需要考虑一下成本。

We're not exposed to continuous white noise naturally.

我们自然不会接触到连续的白噪声。

There is a value to having really salient, structured sounds that are part of our natural environment to actually have the brain develop normally.

拥有真正显着的、结构化的声音是我们自然环境的一部分，对于大脑的正常发育来说是有价值的。

So, whether or not that has an impact while you're sleeping, it's not clear.

因此，尚不清楚这是否会对您睡眠时产生影响。

I don't think that those studies have been done.

我认为这些研究还没有完成。

What was really clear was that if you raise these baby rats in continuous white noise, not super loud, but just enough to mask the environmental sounds, that that was enough to keep the auditory cortex, the part of the brain that hears, in this really delayed state, which could essentially slow down the development and maturation of the brain.

真正清楚的是，如果你在连续的白噪音中饲养这些小老鼠，声音不是很大，但足以掩盖环境声音，就足以使听觉皮层（大脑中负责听声音的部分）处于这种真正延迟的状态，这实际上会减慢大脑的发育和成熟。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And one could probably assume that slowing the maturation of areas of the brain that are responsible for hearing might, I want to underscore, might impact one's ability to speak.

我想强调的是，人们可能会认为，减缓负责听力的大脑区域的成熟可能会影响一个人的说话能力。

Right?

正确的？

Because isn't it the case that if people can't hear, they actually have a harder time enunciating in a particular way?

因为如果人们听不见，他们实际上就很难以某种特定的方式发音，这不是吗？

Is that right?

是这样吗？

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

If I were to not be able to hear my own voice, would my speech patterns change?

如果我听不到自己的声音，我的说话方式会改变吗？

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

Well, I think part of it is that over time we develop sensitivity to the very specific speech sounds in a given language, and the sensitivity improves as we hear more and more and more of it.

嗯，我认为部分原因是，随着时间的推移，我们对特定语言中非常具体的语音变得敏感，并且随着我们听到越来越多的声音，敏感度也会提高。

And then on the other hand, we lose sensitivity to other speech sounds at the same time.

另一方面，我们同时失去了对其他语音的敏感性。

But as part of that process, we also have a selectivity, a gain, a specialization even for those sounds, even relative to noise, noisy backgrounds and things like that.

但作为这个过程的一部分，我们甚至对这些声音，甚至相对于噪音、嘈杂的背景和类似的东西，也有选择性、增益和专业化。

I tend to think about it like what is the signal-to-noise ratio?

我倾向于思考什么是信噪比？

And so the brain has its own ways of trying to increase that signal-to-noise ratio in order to make it more clear.

因此，大脑有自己的方式来尝试提高信噪比，以使其更加清晰。

Part of that is how we hear and how it lays down a foundation for that signal-to-noise ratio.

其中一部分是我们如何听到以及它如何为信噪比奠定基础。

And so you can imagine a child that's raised continuously in white noise would be really deprived of those kind of sounds that are really necessary for it to develop properly.

所以你可以想象，一个在白噪音中不断长大的孩子实际上会被剥夺正常发育所必需的那些声音。

So I think with regard to those tools for babies, I think we should study.

所以我认为对于婴儿的那些工具，我认为我们应该学习。

We should try to understand this definitively.

我们应该尝试明确地理解这一点。

I think what we saw in rodents would tell us that there is potential, things that we should be concerned about, but again, it's not really clear if you're just using at night whether it has those effects.

我认为我们在啮齿动物身上看到的情况会告诉我们，它是有潜力的，是我们应该关注的事情，但同样，目前还不清楚如果你只是在晚上使用它是否会产生这些影响。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I guess the critical question that a number of people are going to be asking is, did you decide to use a white noise machine or not to help keep any of your three children asleep?

我想很多人会问的关键问题是，您是否决定使用白噪音机来帮助您的三个孩子中的任何一个保持睡眠？

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Well, I think the short answer is no. I obviously did a lot of work thinking and work on this and thought about it carefully.

嗯，我认为简短的答案是否定的。显然，我在这方面做了很多思考和工作，并仔细考虑过。

But there are other kinds of noise, or I wouldn't even call it noise, other sounds that you can use that can be equally soothing to a baby.

但还有其他类型的噪音，或者我什至不会称其为噪音，您可以使用其他声音同样可以安抚婴儿。

It's just that white noise has no structure and what it's doing is essentially masking out all of the natural sounds.

只是白噪声没有结构，它所做的本质上是掩盖所有自然声音。

And I think the goal should really be about how do we replace that with other more natural sounds that structure the brain in the way that we want to be more healthy.

我认为我们的目标实际上应该是如何用其他更自然的声音来取代它，这些声音以我们想要的更健康的方式构建大脑。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Well, I know that after you finished your medical training, you went on to, of course, specialize in neurosurgery, and last I checked, you spend most of your days either running your laboratory or in the clinic or running the department.

嗯，我知道，在你完成医学培训后，你当然会继续专攻神经外科，最后我查了一下，你大部分时间要么在实验室、在诊所，要么在管理部门。

And your clinical work and your laboratory work involves often removing pieces of the skull of humans and going in and either removing things or stimulating neurons, treating various ailments of different kinds.

你的临床工作和实验室工作经常涉及去除人类头骨的碎片，然后进入并去除东西或刺激神经元，治疗各种不同类型的疾病。

But your main focus these days, of course, is the neurobiology of speech and language.

当然，您现在的主要关注点是言语和语言的神经生物学。

And so for those that aren't familiar, could you please distinguish for us speech versus language in terms of whether or not different brain areas control them?

那么对于那些不熟悉的人，您能否为我们区分语音和语言是否由不同的大脑区域控制？

And I know that there's a lot of interest in how speech and language and hearing all relate to one another.

我知道人们对言语、语言和听觉如何相互关联非常感兴趣。

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And then we'll talk a bit about, for instance, emotions and how facial expressions could play into this or hand gestures, et cetera.

然后我们将讨论一些例如情绪以及面部表情如何影响情绪或手势等。

But for the uninformed person, and for me, to be quite direct, what are the brain areas that control speech and language?

但对于不知情的人来说，对于我来说，相当直接地说，控制言语和语言的大脑区域是什么？

What are they really?

它们到底是什么？

And especially in humans, how are they different?

尤其是在人类中，它们有何不同？

We have such sophisticated language compared to a number of other species.

与许多其他物种相比，我们拥有如此复杂的语言。

What does all this landscape look like in there?

那里的风景是什么样的？

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Well, that's a fascinating question, and I'm going to just try to connect a couple of the dots here, which is that in that earlier work during medical school, I was doing a lot of what we call neurophysiology, putting electrodes into the auditory cortex and understanding how the brain responds to sounds.

嗯，这是一个有趣的问题，我将尝试在这里连接几个点，那就是在医学院的早期工作中，我做了很多我们所谓的神经生理学的工作，将电极放入听觉皮层并了解大脑如何对声音做出反应。

And that's how we actually mapped out these things about the sensitivity to sensitive periods.

这就是我们实际上如何规划出有关敏感期敏感性的这些事情。

That experience with Mike Merzenich and thinking about how plasticity is regulated in the brain, in particular about how sound is represented by brain activity, was something that was really formative for me.

与迈克·梅泽尼奇（Mike Merzenich）的经历以及对大脑中可塑性如何调节的思考，特别是关于声音如何由大脑活动表示的问题，对我来说确实是有影响的。

And because I was a medical student and I was going back to my medical studies, it was that in combination with seeing some awake brain surgeries that our department is really well known for.

因为我是一名医科学生，我要回去继续我的医学研究，所以结合看到一些清醒的脑部手术，我们科室真正闻名。

One of my mentors, Mitch Berger, really pioneered these methods for taking care of patients with brain tumor and be able to do these surgeries safely by keeping patients awake and by mapping out language.

我的导师之一米奇·伯杰 (Mitch Berger) 真正开创了这些治疗脑肿瘤患者的方法，并能够通过让患者保持清醒和制定语言来安全地进行这些手术。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So they're talking and listening, and you're essentially in conversation with these patients while there's a portion of their skull removed, and you are stimulating or, in some cases, removing areas of their brain.

所以他们在说话和倾听，而你基本上是在与这些患者交谈，而他们的部分头骨被移除，你正在刺激，或者在某些情况下，移除他们的大脑区域。

Is that right?

是这样吗？

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

That's exactly right.

完全正确。

And the only thing off there is it's not essentially.

唯一的事情是它本质上不是。

It is just that.

就是这样。

The only difference between the conversation that I might have with my patient who's undergoing awake brain surgery is that I can't see their face and they can't see my face.

我与正在接受清醒脑部手术的患者进行对话的唯一区别是，我看不到他们的脸，他们也看不到我的脸。

We actually have a sterile drape that actually separates the operating field, and they're looking and interacting with our neuropsychologist.

我们实际上有一个无菌手术单，实际上将手术区域分开，他们正在观察我们的神经心理学家并与之互动。

But I can talk to them and they can hear my voice and vice versa.

但我可以与他们交谈，他们也可以听到我的声音，反之亦然。

And it's a really, really important way of how we can protect some of those areas that are really critical for language.

这是我们保护某些对语言至关重要的领域的非常非常重要的方式。

At the same time, accomplish the mission of getting the seizures under control or getting a brain tumor removed.

同时，完成控制癫痫发作或切除脑肿瘤的任务。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And is that because occasionally you'll encounter a brain area, maybe you're stimulating or considering removing that brain area, and suddenly a patient will start stuttering or will have a hard time formulating a sentence?

这是因为偶尔你会遇到一个大脑区域，也许你正在刺激或考虑去除该大脑区域，突然病人会开始口吃或很难说出一个句子？

Is that essentially what you're looking for?

这本质上是您要寻找的吗？

You're looking for regions in which it is okay or not okay to probe.

您正在寻找可以或不可以探测的区域。

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

Exactly.

正是如此。

So the first thing that we do is that we use a small electrical stimulator to probe different parts of the areas that we think might be related and important for language or talking or even movements of your arm and leg.

因此，我们要做的第一件事是使用小型电刺激器来探测我们认为可能与语言或说话甚至手臂和腿部的运动相关且重要的区域的不同部分。

That's what we call brain mapping.

这就是我们所说的大脑图谱。

And we use a small electrical current that's delivered through a probe that we can just put at each spot.

我们使用通过探针传递的小电流，我们可以将探针放置在每个点上。

And the areas that we're really interested in are, of course, the areas that are right around the part that is pathological, the part that's injured or the part that has a brain tumor that we want to remove.

当然，我们真正感兴趣的区域是病理部分、受伤部分或我们想要切除的脑肿瘤部分周围的区域。

So we can apply that probe and transiently, meaning temporarily activate it.

因此，我们可以应用该探测器并暂时激活它。

So if you're stimulating the part of the brain that controls the hand, the hand will move.

因此，如果你刺激大脑中控制手的部分，手就会移动。

It will jerk.

它会抽搐。

Sometimes a fist will be made, something like that.

有时会握拳头之类的。

Other times, while someone is counting or just saying the days of the week, you can stimulate in a different area that stops their speech altogether.

其他时候，当某人正在数数或只是说出一周中的日子时，您可以刺激另一个区域，使他们完全停止说话。

That's what we call speech arrest.

这就是我们所说的言论逮捕。

Or if someone is looking at pictures and they're describing the pictures and you stimulate in a particular area, they stop speaking, or the words start coming out slurred, or they can't remember the name of the object that they're seeing in the picture.

或者，如果有人正在看图片，他们正在描述图片，而你刺激了某个特定区域，他们就会停止说话，或者说的话开始含糊不清，或者他们记不起他们在图片中看到的物体的名称。

These are all things that we're listening really carefully While we apply that focal stimulation.

这些都是我们在施加焦点刺激时非常仔细地聆听的事情。

That's what we call brain mapping.

这就是我们所说的大脑图谱。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

What are some of the more surprising or maybe even if you want to offer, what are the more outrageous examples of things that people have suddenly done or failed to be able to do as a consequence of this brain mapping?

有哪些更令人惊讶的事情，或者即使你想提供，有哪些更令人震惊的例子，说明人们由于这种大脑映射而突然做了或无法做的事情？

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

Well, I think the thing to me that has been the most striking is that some of these areas you stimulate and altogether, you can shut down someone's talking.

嗯，我认为对我来说最引人注目的是，你刺激其中一些区域，并且总的来说，你可以阻止某人的谈话。

So person says, "I wanted to say it, but I couldn't get the words out." And even though I've seen this thousands of times now, it's still exciting every time that I see it because it's exciting because you're seeing the brain.

所以有人说：“我想说，但我说不出来。”尽管我现在已经看过数千次了，但每次看到它仍然很令人兴奋，因为它很令人兴奋，因为你看到了大脑。

It's a physical organ.

它是一个身体器官。

It's part of the body.

它是身体的一部分。

Outside of the veins, on top of it, doesn't look like a machine.

在静脉之外，在它的顶部，看起来不像一台机器。

But when you do something like that and you focally change the way it works, and you see that because a person can't talk anymore, and they say, "I know what I want to say, but I couldn't get the words out," you're confronted with this idea that, that organ is the basis of speech and language, and way beyond that, obviously.

但是，当你做类似的事情并且你集中改变它的工作方式时，你会看到，因为一个人不能再说话了，他们说，“我知道我想说什么，但我无法说出来”，你会面临这样的想法，即该器官是言语和语言的基础，显然远远超出了这一点。

For all the other functions that we have for thinking and feeling our emotions, everything.

对于我们思考和感受情绪的所有其他功能，一切。

So that to me is a constant reminder of this really special thing that the brain does, which is compute so many of the things that we do, and in particular in the area around speech and language, generating words.

所以对我来说，这不断提醒我大脑所做的一件非常特别的事情，它会计算我们所做的许多事情，特别是在语音和语言领域，生成单词。

Something that is really unique to our species is just extraordinary to see.

对于我们这个物种来说，真正独特的东西是非同寻常的。

Again, even though I've seen it thousands of times, it's just having that connection because it doesn't look like a machine, but it is doing something that is quite complicated, precise, and remarkable.

再说一次，尽管我已经看过它数千次，但它只是有这种联系，因为它看起来不像一台机器，但它正在做一些非常复杂、精确和非凡的事情。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Do you ever see emotional responses from stimulation in particular areas?

您是否曾看到特定区域受到刺激后的情绪反应？

And do you ever hear or see emotional responses that are associated with particular types of speech?

您是否曾听到或看到与特定类型的演讲相关的情绪反应？

Because for instance, curse words-

因为例如咒骂的话——

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

are known to-- People with Tourette's often will curse.

众所周知——患有抽动秽语症的人经常会咒骂。

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

Sure.

当然。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Not always, but sometimes they'll have tics or other things.

并非总是如此，但有时他们会出现抽搐或其他症状。

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But what I learned from a colleague of ours is that curse words have a certain structure to them.

但我从一位同事那里了解到，脏话有一定的结构。

There's usually a heavy or kind of a sharp consonant up front, right, that allows people, at least as it was described to me, to have some sort of emotional release.

前面通常有一个沉重的或尖锐的辅音，对吧，这可以让人们，至少正如我所描述的那样，得到某种情感的释放。

It's not a word like murmur-

这不是低语之类的词——

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

which has a kind of a soft entry.

它有一种软入口。

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Here, I'm not using the technical language.

在这里，我没有使用技术语言。

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And you pick your favorite curse word out there, folks.

伙计们，你可以选择你最喜欢的咒语。

I'm not going to shout out any now or say any now.

我现在不会大声喊叫或说任何话。

But that certain words have a structure to them that because of the motor patterns that are involved in saying that word-

但是某些单词有一个结构，因为说这个单词时涉及到运动模式——

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

you could imagine has an emotional response unto itself.

你可以想象它本身有一种情绪反应。

So when stimulating or when blocking these different brain areas, do you ever see people get angry or sad or happy or more relaxed?

那么，当刺激或阻断这些不同的大脑区域时，你是否见过人们变得生气、悲伤、快乐或更放松？

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

Oh, well, definitely I've seen cases where you can invoke anxiety, stress.

哦，好吧，我确实见过一些会引发焦虑和压力的案例。

And I think that there are also areas that you can stimulate, and you can also evoke the opposite of that, sort of like a calm state.

我认为还有一些区域是你可以刺激的，你也可以唤起相反的感觉，有点像平静的状态。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I think that brain area is slightly hyperactive in you, or at least more than me.

我认为你的大脑区域有点过度活跃，或者至少比我更活跃。

In all the years I've known you, you've always been, at least externally, a very calm person.

在我认识你的这些年里，至少在外表上，你一直是一个非常冷静的人。

I always find it amazing that you work on speech and language-

我总是觉得你在言语和语言方面的研究很神奇——

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

and you have a very calming voice, right?

你的声音非常平静，对吧？

And I'm being really serious.

我是认真的。

I think that there's a huge variation there, right, in terms of how people speak and how they accent words.

我认为人们的说话方式和重音方式存在巨大差异，对吧。

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

Absolutely.

绝对的。

Yeah.

是的。

So there are areas, for example, the orbitofrontal cortex, that we showed that if you stimulate there, the orbitofrontal cortex is a part of the brain that's above the eyes, that's why they call it orbitofrontal, meaning it's above the eye or the orbit, and in the frontal lobe, and it's this area right in here.

所以有些区域，例如，眶额皮质，我们表明，如果你刺激那里，眶额皮质是大脑位于眼睛上方的一部分，这就是为什么他们称之为眶额皮质，意思是它位于眼睛或眼眶上方，位于额叶，而这个区域就在这里。

It has really complex functions.

它的功能非常复杂。

It's really important for learning and memory.

这对于学习和记忆非常重要。

But one of the things that we observed is when you stimulate in there, people tended to have a reduction in their stress.

但我们观察到的一件事是，当你刺激那里时，人们的压力往往会减轻。

And it was very much related to their state of being, meaning that if someone was already kind of feeling normal and you stimulate there, it didn't do much.

这与他们的存在状态有很大关系，这意味着如果某人已经感觉正常并且你刺激那里，那并没有多大作用。

But if someone was in a very anxious state, it actually relieved that.

但如果一个人处于非常焦虑的状态，它实际上会缓解这种情况。

And then we've seen the corollary of that, which is true, too, which is that there are other areas like the amygdala or parts of the insula, that if you stimulate, you can cause an acute temporary anxiety, a nervous feeling.

然后我们看到了这个推论，这也是正确的，那就是还有其他区域，例如杏仁核或岛叶的一部分，如果受到刺激，就会引起急性暂时的焦虑，紧张的感觉。

Or if you stimulate insula, people can have an acute feeling of disgust.

或者，如果刺激脑岛，人们就会产生强烈的厌恶感。

So, the brain has different functions and these different nodes that help process the way we feel.

因此，大脑具有不同的功能和不同的节点来帮助处理我们的感受。

Certainly, I think that to some degree, neuropsychiatric conditions reflect an imbalance of the electrical activities in these areas.

当然，我认为在某种程度上，神经精神疾病反映了这些区域电活动的不平衡。

One of the things that was something I will never forget was taking care of a young woman with uncontrolled seizures.

我永远不会忘记的一件事是照顾一位癫痫发作不受控制的年轻女子。

We call that epilepsy.

我们称之为癫痫症。

It's a medical condition where someone has uncontrolled electrical activity in the brain.

这是一种大脑电活动不受控制的疾病。

Sometimes you can see that as convulsions, where people are shaking and lose consciousness.

有时你可以将其视为抽搐，人们在颤抖并失去知觉。

There are other kind of seizures that people can have where they don't lose consciousness, but they can have experiences that just come out of nowhere.

还有其他类型的癫痫发作，人们可能不会失去意识，但他们可能会有莫名其妙的经历。

And it's just as a result of electrical activity coming from the brain.

这只是大脑电活动的结果。

And about six years ago, I took care of a young woman who was diagnosed psychiatrically with anxiety disorder for several years.

大约六年前，我照顾了一位年轻女子，她被诊断出患有焦虑症多年。

It turns out that it wasn't really an anxiety disorder, it was actually that she had underlying seizures and epilepsy activating a part of her brain that evokes anxious feelings.

事实证明，这并不是真正的焦虑症，实际上是她有潜在的癫痫发作和癫痫激活了她大脑的一部分，引起了焦虑感。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

How was that discovered?

这是怎么被发现的？

Because I know a lot of people out there have anxiety.

因为我知道很多人都有焦虑。

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

In the absence of a brain scan, how or why would one suspect that maybe they have a tumor or some other condition that was causing those neurons to become hyperactive?

在没有进行脑部扫描的情况下，人们如何或为何会怀疑自己可能患有肿瘤或其他导致这些神经元变得过度活跃的疾病？

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

Yeah, that's really important because so many people have anxiety, and the vast, vast majority are not having that because they're having seizures in the brain.

是的，这真的很重要，因为很多人都有焦虑症，而绝大多数人却没有焦虑症，因为他们的大脑出现了癫痫发作。

I think one of the ways that this was diagnosed was that the nature of when she was having these panic attacks was not triggered by anything.

我认为诊断这种情况的方法之一是，她惊恐发作的本质不是由任何事情引发的。

They would just happen spontaneously.

它们会自发地发生。

And that's what can happen with seizures sometimes.

这就是癫痫发作有时会发生的情况。

They just come out of nowhere.

他们只是凭空出现。

We don't fully understand what can trigger them, but they weren't things that were typically anxiety-provoking.

我们并不完全了解什么会触发它们，但它们并不是通常会引起焦虑的事情。

This is something that just happened all of a sudden.

这是突然发生的事情。

And because you brought it up, this is not something that you can see on an MRI.

因为你提出了这个问题，所以这不是你可以在 MRI 上看到的东西。

We could not see and look at the structure of her brain with an MRI that she was having seizures.

我们无法通过核磁共振看到并观察她的大脑结构，表明她患有癫痫发作。

The only way that we could actually prove this was actually putting electrodes into her brain and proving that these attacks that she was having were localized to a part called the amygdala.

我们真正能证明这一点的唯一方法是将电极放入她的大脑中，并证明她所遭受的这些攻击仅限于杏仁核的部分。

It's a medial part of the temporal lobe, which is here, and associating the electrical activity that we were seeing on those electrodes with the symptoms that she had.

它是颞叶的内侧部分，就在这里，并将我们在这些电极上看到的电活动与她的症状联系起来。

And she ultimately needed a kind of surgery where she was awake in order to remove this safely.

她最终需要在清醒的情况下进行某种手术，才能安全地移除它。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Speaking of epilepsy, a number of people out there have epilepsy or know people who do.

说到癫痫症，很多人都患有癫痫症或认识患有癫痫症的人。

Are the drugs for epilepsy satisfactory?

治疗癫痫的药物效果好吗？

I think about things like Depakote and-

我想到像 Depakote 这样的东西和-

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

and adjusting the excitation and inhibition of the brain.

并调节大脑的兴奋和抑制。

Are there good drugs for epilepsy?

有治疗癫痫的好药吗？

We know there are-

我们知道有——

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

not great drugs for a lot of other conditions, but-- And how often does one need neurosurgery in order to treat epilepsy, or can it be treated most often just using pharmacology?

对于许多其他疾病来说，这并不是很好的药物，但是——为了治疗癫痫，一个人需要多久进行一次神经外科手术，或者最常使用药物来治疗它？

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Great question.

很好的问题。

Well, a lot of people have seizures that can be completely controlled by their medications, a lot.

嗯，很多人的癫痫发作可以通过药物完全控制。

But there's about one-third of people who have epilepsy, which we define as anyone who's had three or more seizures, that about a third of them actually don't have control with all of the modern medications that we have nowadays.

但大约有三分之一的癫痫患者（我们将其定义为癫痫发作过三次或多次的人），其中大约三分之一的人实际上无法使用我们现在拥有的所有现代药物来控制癫痫。

And some of the data suggests that if you have two or three medications, it actually doesn't matter necessarily which of the anti-seizure medications it is, but there is data suggests if you've just tried two or three, the fourth, fifth, sixth, and beyond is not likely to help control it.

一些数据表明，如果您服用两种或三种药物，实际上使用哪种抗癫痫药物并不重要，但有数据表明，如果您只尝试了两种或三种药物，则第四种、第五种、第六种以及更多药物不太可能有助于控制癫痫发作。

So, we are in a situation, unfortunately, where a lot of the medications are great for some people, but for another subset, they can't control it, and it comes from a particular part of the brain.

因此，不幸的是，我们处于一种情况，许多药物对某些人来说很好，但对于另一部分人来说，他们无法控制它，而且它来自大脑的特定部分。

Now, fortunately, in that subset, there's another part of that group that can benefit from a surgery that actually either removes that part of the brain, and nowadays we'll use stimulators now to sometimes put electrical stimulation in that part of the brain to help reduce the seizures.

现在，幸运的是，在这个子集中，该群体的另一部分可以从实际上切除大脑那部分的手术中受益，现在我们现在将使用刺激器有时对大脑的那部分进行电刺激，以帮助减少癫痫发作。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And you said a third of people with epilepsy might need neurosurgery.

您说三分之一的癫痫患者可能需要神经外科手术。

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

Well, what I mean by that is they continue to have seizures that are not controlled by all medications, and there's going to be another subset of those that may benefit from a surgery.

嗯，我的意思是，他们仍然会出现癫痫发作，而所有药物都无法控制他们的癫痫发作，并且其中还有另一部分人可能会从手术中受益。

It's probably not that whole third, it's a subset of that.

它可能不是整个三分之一，而是其中的一个子集。

It's just to say that epilepsy can be really hard to get fixed, and for people where the seizures come from one spot or an area, then surgery can do great.

只是说，癫痫病确实很难治愈，对于癫痫发作来自某个部位或某个区域的人来说，手术可以起到很好的作用。

If it comes from multiple areas or if it comes from the whole brain, then we have to think about other methods to control it.

如果它来自多个区域或者来自整个大脑，那么我们就必须考虑其他方法来控制它。

Fortunately, nowadays, there's actually other ways.

幸运的是，现在实际上还有其他方法。

Surgery now to us doesn't just mean removing part of the brain.

现在手术对我们来说不仅仅意味着切除部分大脑。

Half of what we do now is use stimulators that modulate the state of the brain that can help reduce the seizures.

我们现在所做的一半工作是使用刺激器来调节大脑状态，从而帮助减少癫痫发作。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I've heard before that the ketogenic diet was originally formulated in order to treat epilepsy, and in particular in kids.

我之前听说生酮饮食最初是为了治疗癫痫症，特别是儿童癫痫症而制定的。

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Is that true?

这是真的吗？

And why would being in a ketogenic state with low blood glucose reduce seizures?

为什么处于低血糖的生酮状态会减少癫痫发作？

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

That's a great question.

这是一个很好的问题。

And to be honest, I don't know actually if it was originally designed to treat seizures.

老实说，我实际上不知道它最初是否是为了治疗癫痫发作而设计的。

But I can tell you for sure that for some people, just like with some medications, it can be a life-changing thing.

但我可以肯定地告诉你，对于某些人来说，就像某些药物一样，它可能会改变生活。

It can completely change the way that the brain works.

它可以彻底改变大脑的工作方式。

And it's not something that's for everybody, but for some people, there's no question it has some very beneficial effects.

它并不适合所有人，但对于某些人来说，毫无疑问它有一些非常有益的影响。

I think it's to be determined still why and how that works.

我认为仍然有待确定其为何以及如何发挥作用。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

I've heard similar things about the ketogenic diet for people with Alzheimer's dementia, that there's nothing particularly relevant about ketosis to Alzheimer's per se, but because Alzheimer's changes the way that neurons metabolize energy-

我听说过关于阿尔茨海默氏痴呆症患者的生酮饮食的类似说法，酮症与阿尔茨海默氏症本身没有什么特别相关的，但因为阿尔茨海默氏症改变了神经元代谢能量的方式——

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

that shifting to an alternate fuel source can sometimes make people feel better, and so a number of people are now trying it.

转向替代燃料有时会让人们感觉更好，因此许多人现在正在尝试。

But it's not as if blood glucose and having carbohydrates is causing Alzheimer's.

但这并不是说血糖和碳水化合物会导致阿尔茨海默病。

And people get confused often that just because something can help doesn't mean that the opposite is harming somebody.

人们常常感到困惑，仅仅因为某些东西可以帮助别人，并不意味着相反的东西就会伤害别人。

So I find this really interesting.

所以我觉得这真的很有趣。

Sometime I'll check back with you about what's happening in terms of ketogenic diets and epilepsy.

有时间我会和你一起回顾一下生酮饮食和癫痫方面的进展。

But it You said that in some cases it can help.

但你说过，在某些情况下它会有所帮助。

Has that observation been made both for children and for adults?

对儿童和成人都进行过这样的观察吗？

Because I thought that originally the ketogenic diet for epilepsy was really for pediatric epilepsy.

因为我以为生酮饮食治疗癫痫本来就是针对小儿癫痫的。

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

Yeah, that's right.

是的，没错。

So a lot of its focus has really been on kids with epilepsy, but certainly it's a safe thing to try, so a lot of adults will try it as well.

因此，它的重点实际上是针对患有癫痫的儿童，但尝试起来肯定是安全的，所以很多成年人也会尝试。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Interesting.

有趣。

I'm curious about epilepsy for another reason.

我对癫痫感到好奇还有另一个原因。

I was taught that epilepsy is an imbalance in the excitation and inhibition in the brain.

我被告知癫痫是大脑兴奋和抑制的不平衡。

So you think about these electrical storms-

所以你想想这些雷暴——

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

that give people either grand mal shaking and kind of in convulsions.

这会让人们要么剧烈颤抖，要么抽搐。

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But years ago, I was reading a book, a wonderful book actually, called Einstein in Love by Dennis Overbye.

但几年前，我正在读一本书，实际上是一本很棒的书，名叫丹尼斯·奥弗拜（Dennis Overbye）写的《恋爱中的爱因斯坦》。

It was about Einstein and his personal life.

这是关于爱因斯坦和他的个人生活的。

People who knew him claim that he would sometimes walk along, and then every once in a while would just stop and kind of stare off into space for anywhere from a minute to three to five minutes.

认识他的人声称，他有时会走路，然后每隔一段时间就会停下来，凝视太空一分钟到三到五分钟。

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

Mm.

嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And it was speculated that he had absence seizures.

据推测他患有失神发作。

What is an absence seizure?

什么是失神发作？

And the reason I ask is I occasionally will be walking along and I'll be thinking-

我问的原因是我偶尔会一边走一边想——

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

about something and I'll stop, but in my mind, I think I'm thinking during that time, but I realize that if I were to see myself from the outside, it might appear that I was just kind of absent.

我会停下来，但在我的脑海里，我想那段时间我正在思考，但我意识到，如果我从外面看自己，可能会显得我只是有点缺席。

What is an absence seizure?

什么是失神发作？

Because it's so strikingly different in its description from, say, a grand mal convulsive seizure.

因为它的描述与大发作等疾病的描述截然不同。

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

Sure.

当然。

Well, like I mentioned before, depending on how the seizure activity spreads in the brain or how it actually propagates, if it stays in one particular spot and doesn't spread to the entire brain, it can have really different manifestation.

嗯，就像我之前提到的，根据癫痫发作活动如何在大脑中传播或实际上如何传播，如果它停留在一个特定的位置并且没有传播到整个大脑，它可能会有非常不同的表现。

It can represent really differently.

它可以代表真正不同的东西。

So absence seizure is just one category of different kind of seizures where you can lose consciousness, basically, and what I mean by that is that you're not fully aware of what's going on in your environment, okay?

因此，失神癫痫发作只是不同类型癫痫发作的一类，基本上，您可能会失去意识，我的意思是，您不完全了解周围环境中发生的情况，好吗？

So you're sort of taken offline temporarily from consciousness, but you could still be, for example, standing.

因此，你的意识暂时脱离了正常状态，但你仍然可以保持站立状态。

And to people who are not paying attention, they may not even be aware that that's happening.

对于那些不注意的人来说，他们甚至可能没有意识到这种情况正在发生。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

What are some other types of seizures?

还有哪些其他类型的癫痫发作？

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

Well, I think some of the other kinds are, the classic ones are temporal lobe seizures.

嗯，我认为其他一些类型是，典型的是颞叶癫痫发作。

So these are ones that come from the medial structures like the amygdala and hippocampus.

这些来自杏仁核和海马体等内侧结构。

Oftentimes, people, when they have seizures coming from that, they may taste something very unusual, like a metallic taste, or smell something like the smell of burning toast, something like that.

通常，当人们因此癫痫发作时，他们可能会尝到一些非常不寻常的东西，比如金属味，或者闻到烤面包的味道，类似的东西。

There are some people with temporal lobe seizures will have déjà vu.

有一些颞叶癫痫发作的人会有似曾相识的感觉。

They will have that experience that you've been somewhere before.

他们会有你以前去过某个地方的经历。

But that's just a precursor to the seizure.

但这只是癫痫发作的前兆。

And it just highlights that when people have seizures coming from these areas, they sometimes hijack what that part of the brain is really for.

它只是强调，当人们从这些区域癫痫发作时，他们有时会劫持大脑该部分的真正用途。

So the amygdala and hippocampus, for example, are really important for learning and memory.

例如，杏仁核和海马体对于学习和记忆非常重要。

It's not surprising that when people have seizures there, that it can evoke a feeling of déjà vu, or that it can evoke a feeling of anxiety.

毫不奇怪，当人们在那里癫痫发作时，会引起似曾相识的感觉，或者会引起焦虑的感觉。

And the areas that are right next to it, for example, these areas are really important for processing smell.

比如说它旁边的区域，这些区域对于处理气味来说非常重要。

So these areas are right next to each other, so you can have these kind of complex set of symptoms, the weird taste, the smell of toast, and then a feeling of déjà vu.

所以这些区域是彼此相邻的，所以你可能会有这些复杂的症状，奇怪的味道，烤面包的味道，然后有一种似曾相识的感觉。

That's classic for temporal lobe seizure, and it's because those parts of the brain that process those functions are right next to each other.

这是颞叶癫痫发作的典型情况，因为处理这些功能的大脑部分彼此相邻。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I'm told that I've had nocturnal seizures, and I've woken up sometimes from sleep having felt as if I was having a convulsion, the sort of sense of buzzing in the back of the head.

有人告诉我，我有夜间癫痫发作的症状，有时我会从睡梦中醒来，感觉自己好像在抽搐，有一种后脑勺嗡嗡作响的感觉。

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

Mm.

嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

This happened to me two or three times in college.

这种事在我大学里发生过两三次。

Well, I woke up, and my girlfriend was very distraught, like, "You were having a seizure." I was having a full convulsion in my sleep.

好吧，我醒了，我的女朋友非常心烦意乱，就像，“你癫痫发作了。”我在睡梦中全身抽搐。

Is that correct?

这是正确的吗？

Is there such a thing as nocturnal seizures?

是否存在夜间惊厥这样的情况？

What do they reflect?

它们反映了什么？

They eventually stopped happening, and I couldn't tether them to any kind of life event.

它们最终不再发生，我无法将它们与任何生活事件联系起来。

I wasn't doing any kind of combat sport or anything at the time.

当时我没有参加任何类型的格斗运动或其他任何事情。

I wasn't drinking alcohol much.

我没有喝太多酒。

It's never really been my thing.

这从来都不是我的事。

What are nocturnal seizures about?

夜间惊厥是怎么回事？

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

Oh, well-

哦，好吧——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And do I need brain surgery?

我需要进行脑部手术吗？

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

Nocturnal seizures are just another form.

夜间癫痫发作只是另一种形式。

Again, epilepsy and seizures can have so many different forms, and not just where in the brain, but also when they happen.

同样，癫痫和癫痫发作可以有多种不同的形式，不仅在大脑的哪个部位，而且在发生的时间也不同。

And there are some people who, for whatever reason, it's very timed to the circadian rhythm.

有些人，无论出于何种原因，都非常符合昼夜节律。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm.

嗯。

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

There's actually not just happening at night, but a certain period at night when people are in a certain stage of sleep that the brain is in a state that it's vulnerable to having a seizure.

事实上，不仅发生在晚上，而且在晚上的某个时段，当人们处于睡眠的某个阶段时，大脑处于一种容易癫痫发作的状态。

And so that's basically just one form of that.

所以这基本上只是其中的一种形式。

Again, it's not just about where it's coming from, but also when it's happening and how that's timed with other things that are happening with the body.

再说一次，这不仅仅是关于它来自哪里，还包括它何时发生以及它如何与身体发生的其他事情同步。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Interesting.

有趣。

Well, it eventually stopped happening, so I stopped worrying about it.

好吧，它最终不再发生，所以我不再担心它。

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But I haven't had seizures since.

但从那以后我就再没有癫痫发作过。

Returning to speech and language, when I was getting weaned in neuroscience, I learned that we have an area of the brain for producing speech, and we have an area of the brain for comprehending speech.

回到言语和语言，当我开始学习神经科学时，我了解到我们的大脑有一个区域用于产生言语，我们也有一个大脑区域用于理解言语。

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

What's the story there?

那里有什么故事？

Is it still true that we have a Broca's and a Wernicke's area?

我们仍然有布罗卡区和韦尼克区吗？

Those are names of neurologists, presumably, or neurosurgeons-

这些大概是神经科医生或神经外科医生的名字——

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

that discovered these different brain areas.

发现了这些不同的大脑区域。

Maybe you could familiarize us with some of the sort of textbook version of how speech and language are organized in the brain, maybe share with us a little bit of the lesion studies that led to that understanding, and then I would love to hear a bit about what your laboratory is discovering about how things are actually organized, because from some discussions you and I have had over the last year or so, it seems like...

也许你可以让我们熟悉一些关于大脑中言语和语言如何组织的教科书版本，也许可以与我们分享一些导致这种理解的损伤研究，然后我很想听听你的实验室正在发现的关于事物实际上是如何组织的，因为从你和我在过去一年左右的一些讨论来看，似乎......

Well, let's just be blunt.

好吧，让我们直言不讳。

It seems that much of what we know from the textbooks could be wrong.

看来我们从教科书上学到的很多知识可能都是错误的。

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

Well I love that question because for me, it's very central to the research we do, and it's where the intersection between what we do in the laboratory and our research interfaces with what I see in patients.

嗯，我喜欢这个问题，因为对我来说，它对于我们所做的研究非常核心，也是我们在实验室所做的工作和我们的研究与我在患者身上看到的结果之间的交叉点。

And one of the things that fascinated me early on in my medical training was in doing some of these brain mapping or watching them with my mentor or taking care of patients that had brain tumors in a certain part of the brain, was that a lot of times what I was seeing in a patient did not correlate with what I was taught in medical school.

在我的医学培训早期，让我着迷的一件事是做一些大脑绘图或与我的导师一起观察它们，或者照顾大脑某个部位患有脑肿瘤的患者，很多时候我在患者身上看到的情况与我在医学院所教的内容并不相关。

And some people will think, well, this might be an exception.

有些人会想，好吧，这可能是一个例外。

But after you see it for a couple of times, and if you're kind of interested in this problem, it poses a serious challenge to what you've learned and how you think about how these things operate.

但在你看过几次之后，如果你对这个问题有点感兴趣，它会对你所学到的知识以及你如何思考这些事物如何运作提出严峻的挑战。

And that actually got me really interested in trying to figure this out because earlier we talked about just this extraordinary thing that the brain is doing to create words and sentences, and that's the process by which I'm getting ideas out from my mind into yours.

这实际上让我非常有兴趣尝试弄清楚这一点，因为之前我们讨论过大脑正在做的创造单词和句子的非凡事情，这就是我将想法从我的头脑转移到你的头脑的过程。

It's an incredible thing, right?

这是一件令人难以置信的事情，对吧？

It's the basis of communication, high information communication between two individuals that's really unique to humans.

这是沟通的基础，两个人之间的高信息沟通，这对人类来说是独一无二的。

So in historical times, how this works has been very controversial from day one of neuroscience.

因此，在历史时期，从神经科学诞生的第一天起，它的工作原理就一直备受争议。

A long time ago, people thought the bumps on your head corresponded to the different faculties of the mind.

很久以前，人们认为头上的肿块对应于心灵的不同官能。

So, for example, if you had a bump here, it might be corresponding to intelligence or another one over here to vision and these kind of things.

所以，举例来说，如果你在这里有一个肿块，它可能对应于智力或另一个对应于视觉和此类事物的东西。

That's what we nowadays call phrenology and that was kind of the starting point.

这就是我们现在所说的颅相学，这就是一个起点。

A lot of that has been, of course, debunked, but when you see those little statues of different brain partitions on someone's head, that's essentially how people were thinking about how the brain worked back then, a couple of hundred years ago.

当然，其中很多都已经被揭穿了，但是当你看到某人头上不同大脑分区的小雕像时，这基本上就是人们在几百年前思考大脑如何工作的方式。

Modern neuroscience began when-- actually, it was very much related to the discovery of language.

现代神经科学始于——实际上，它与语言的发现密切相关。

So modern neuroscience meaning moving beyond this idea that the bumps on the scalp corresponded to the faculties of the mind.

因此，现代神经科学的意义超越了这样的观念：头皮上的肿块对应于心灵的能力。

But there were things that actually were in the brain themselves, and they weren't corresponding to things that you could see superficially, like on the scalp or externally.

但有些东西实际上就在大脑本身中，它们与你表面上看到的东西并不对应，比如在头皮上或外部。

That it was something about the brain itself.

这是关于大脑本身的事情。

It seems so obvious now, but back then, this was the big academic debate.

现在看来这是显而易见的，但在当时，这是学术界的一场大争论。

And the first observation that I think really was really impactful in the area of language was an observation by a French neurosurgeon named Pierre Broca.

我认为在语言领域真正有影响力的第一个观察是法国神经外科医生皮埃尔·布罗卡（Pierre Broca）的观察。

And what he observed was that in a patient, not that he did surgery, but that he had seen and taken care of, that the person couldn't talk.

他观察到，在一个病人身上，不是他做了手术，而是他看过并照顾过，这个人不会说话。

And in particular, they called this individual Tan because the only words that he could produce was Tan.

特别是，他们称这个人为“谭”，因为他唯一能说出的词就是“谭”。

For the most part, he could generally understand the kind of things that people were asking him about, but the only thing that he could utter from his mouth were these words, Tan.

人们问他的问题，他大体上都能听懂，但他嘴里唯一能说出来的就是这几个字，谭。

And what eventually had happened was this individual passed away, and the way that neuroscience was done back then was basically to wait until that happened and then to remove the brain and to see what part of the brain was affected in this patient that they called Tan.

最终发生的事情是这个人去世了，当时神经科学的方法基本上是等到这种情况发生，然后取出大脑，看看这个被他们称为谭的病人的大脑的哪一部分受到影响。

And what Broca found was that there was a part in the left frontal lobe.

布罗卡发现，左额叶有一部分。

So the frontal lobe is this area like I described earlier, which is up behind our forehead, up here.

所以额叶就是我之前描述的这个区域，它位于我们前额后面，在这里。

And in the back of that frontal lobe, he claimed that this was the seat of articulation in the brain.

他声称额叶的后部是大脑的关节部位。

He literally used something like that in French, the seat of articulation, meaning that this is the part of the brain that is responsible for us to generate words.

他用的字面意思是法语中的“发音部位”，意思是大脑中负责生成单词的部分。

About 50 years later, the story becomes more complicated with a German neurologist named Carl Wernicke.

大约 50 年后，故事因一位名叫卡尔·韦尼克 (Carl Wernicke) 的德国神经学家而变得更加复杂。

And what Wernicke described was a different set of symptoms in patients that he observed, a different phenomenon where people could produce words, and they were fluent in the sense that they sound like they could be real words, but from a different language, for example.

韦尼克所描述的是他观察到的患者的一组不同症状，一种不同的现象，人们可以说出单词，并且他们很流利，因为它们听起来像是真实的单词，但来自不同的语言，例如。

And some of us call that word salad or jargon.

我们中的一些人称这个词为沙拉或行话。

It's essentially they were making up words, but it was not intentional.

本质上他们是在编造词语，但并不是故意的。

It's just the way that the words came out.

这句话就是这么说出来的。

But in addition to that, he observed that these people also could not understand what was being said to them.

但除此之外，他观察到这些人也无法理解对他们说的话。

So, we could be having a conversation and I'd be asking you, "Am I a woman?" And you might nod your head, just because you're not processing the question.

所以，我们可能在谈话时我会问你，“我是女人吗？”你可能会点头，只是因为你没有处理这个问题。

And so, here are two observations.

因此，这里有两个观察结果。

One is that the frontal lobe is important for articulating speech, creating the words, and expressing them fluently.

一是额叶对于清晰言语、创造词语和流利表达非常重要。

And then a different part of the brain called the left temporal lobe, which is this area right above my ear.

然后大脑的另一个部分称为左颞叶，也就是我耳朵正上方的区域。

That is an area that I think was claimed to be really important for understanding So the two major functions in language, to speak and to understand, were kind of pinned down to that.

我认为这是一个对于理解非常重要的领域，因此语言的两个主要功能，即说话和理解，在某种程度上是固定的。

And we've had that basic idea in the textbooks for over 200 years.

200 多年来，我们的教科书里一直有这个基本概念。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Certainly what I was taught.

当然是我被教导的。

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

Is that right?

是这样吗？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Oh, every-- Yeah.

哦，每个——是的。

And certainly we still teach-

当然，我们仍然教导——

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

undergraduates, graduate students, and medical students that.

本科生、研究生和医学生。

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

Well, that's what I learned, too, in medical school.

嗯，这也是我在医学院学到的。

And what I saw in reality when I started taking care of patients was that it's not so simple.

当我开始照顾病人时，我在现实中看到事情并不那么简单。

In fact, part of it is fundamentally wrong.

事实上，其中一部分是根本错误的。

So just in a nutshell, nowadays, after looking at this very carefully over hundreds of patients, we've shown that surgeries, for example, in the posterior part of the frontal lobe, a lot of times people have no problem talking at all whatsoever after those kind of surgeries.

简而言之，如今，在对数百名患者进行了仔细研究之后，我们发现，例如在额叶后部进行的手术，很多时候人们在进行此类手术后说话完全没有问题。

And that it's a different part of the brain, what we call the precentral gyrus.

它是大脑的不同部分，我们称之为中央前回。

The precentral gyrus is a part of the brain that is intimately associated with the motor cortex.

中央前回是大脑的一部分，与运动皮层密切相关。

The motor cortex is the part of the brain that has a map of your entire body, so that it has a part that corresponds to your feet, it has a part that corresponds to your hands.

运动皮层是大脑中拥有整个身体地图的部分，因此它有一个部分对应于你的脚，它有一个部分对应于你的手。

But then there's another part that comes out more laterally on the side of the brain that corresponds to your lips, your jaw, your larynx.

但大脑的另一侧则有另一部分，对应于你的嘴唇、下巴和喉部。

And we have seen that when patients have surgeries or injuries to that part of the brain, it actually can really interrupt language.

我们已经看到，当患者对大脑的该部分进行手术或受伤时，实际上确实会中断语言。

So it's not as simple as just moving the muscles of the vocal tract, but it's also important for formulating and expressing words.

所以它不仅仅是移动声道肌肉那么简单，而且对于表达和表达单词也很重要。

So that's Broca's area that I think the field now recognizes, not just because of our work, but many other people that have studied this in stroke and beyond, is that the idea that that is the basis of speaking in Broca's area is fundamentally wrong right now.

因此，我认为该领域现在认识到布罗卡区，不仅因为我们的工作，而且因为许多其他在中风及其他领域研究过这一点的人，认为这是布罗卡区讲话基础的想法目前从根本上是错误的。

And we have to figure out how to correct the textbooks that we kind of understand that so that we can continue to make progress.

我们必须弄清楚如何纠正我们所理解的教科书，以便我们能够继续取得进步。

Now, in terms of the other major area that we call Wernicke's area, in the posterior temporal lobe, that has held, I think, quite legitimately for some time.

现在，就我们称为韦尼克区的另一个主要区域而言，位于后颞叶，我认为该区域已经相当合理地存在了一段时间。

So that is an area that you have to be super careful when you do surgery there.

因此，在该区域进行手术时必须非常小心。

That's an area where if you have a mistake there and you cause a stroke or you remove too much of the tumor there, you go too far beyond it, then the person can be really, really hurt.

在这个区域，如果你犯了一个错误，导致了中风，或者你切除了太多的肿瘤，你的行为超出了它的范围，那么这个人就会受到真正的伤害。

They'll have a condition that we call aphasia, where they may not be able to understand words, they may not be able to remember the word that they're trying to say.

他们会患有一种我们称之为失语症的病症，他们可能无法理解单词，他们可能无法记住他们想说的单词。

They know what they're trying to say, but they can't remember the precise word that goes with the object that they're trying to think of.

他们知道他们想说什么，但他们记不起与他们想要想到的对象相关的确切词。

They may even produce words that I described before are like word salad or very jargony.

他们甚至可能会产生我之前描述的单词沙拉或非常行话的单词。

So they might say something like, "Tamirani." That's not a real word, but it sounds like it could be.

所以他们可能会说“Tamirani”之类的话。这不是一个真正的词，但听起来可能是这样。

And that's just because that part of the brain has some role not just in understanding what we hear, but also actually has a really important role in sending the commands to different parts of the brain to control what we say.

那只是因为大脑的这一部分不仅在理解我们听到的内容方面发挥着一定的作用，而且实际上在向大脑的不同部分发送命令以控制我们所说的话方面也发挥着非常重要的作用。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Not long ago, you and me and my good friend Rick Rubin were having a conversation about medicine and science, and Rick asked the question, "What percentage of what you learned in graduate and/or medical school do you think is correct?" And you had a very interesting answer.

不久前，你和我以及我的好朋友里克·鲁宾(Rick Rubin)正在谈论医学和科学，里克问了这样一个问题：“你认为你在研究生和/或医学院学到的知识中有多少比例是正确的？”你有一个非常有趣的答案。

Would you share it with us?

您愿意与我们分享吗？

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

I don't know.

我不知道。

I don't remember the exact, but I would say that with regard to the brain in particular, I would say about 50% gets it right and accurate and is helpful.

我不记得确切的数字了，但我想说，特别是在大脑方面，我想说大约 50% 的人做得正确、准确，而且很有帮助。

But another 50% is just the approximation and oversimplification of what's going on.

但另外 50% 只是对实际情况的近似和过度简化。

The example that we talked about, language, is just an example of that.

我们谈到的例子，语言，只是其中的一个例子。

It's just there are things that make it easier to learn and easier to teach and easier to even think about.

只是有些东西让它更容易学习、更容易教学、甚至更容易思考。

And that's probably why we continue teaching in the way that we do.

这可能就是我们继续以现有方式进行教学的原因。

But I think as time goes on, the complexity of reality of how the brain works is well, first of all, we're still trying to figure it out.

但我认为随着时间的推移，大脑如何运作的现实的复杂性是好的，首先，我们仍在试图弄清楚它。

And second of all, it is complex, and it's still incomplete story.

其次，它很复杂，而且仍然是一个不完整的故事。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It's early days, and we'll get into some of the technical advances that are allowing some correction of the errors that the field has made.

现在还处于早期阶段，我们将了解一些技术进步，这些进步可以纠正该领域所犯的错误。

And look, no disrespect to the brain explorers that came before us, and the ones that come after us will correct us, right?

看，这并不是对我们之前的大脑探索者的不尊重，我们之后的人会纠正我们，对吧？

That's the way the game is played.

游戏就是这样玩的。

But what I'm hearing is that there are certain truths that people accept, and then there's about half of the information that is still open for debate and maybe even for complete revision.

但我听到的是，人们接受了某些事实，然后大约有一半的信息仍然有待辩论，甚至可能需要彻底修改。

One thing that I learned about language and the neural circuits underlying language is that it's heavily lateralized, that these structures, Broca's and Wernicke's and other structures in the brain responsible for speech and comprehension of speech, sit mainly on one side of the brain, but they do not have a mirror representation or another equivalent area on the opposite side of the brain.

关于语言和语言背后的神经回路，我了解到的一件事是，它是严重偏侧化的，这些结构，布罗卡结构和韦尼克结构以及大脑中负责言语和言语理解的其他结构，主要位于大脑的一侧，但它们在大脑的另一侧没有镜像表征或另一个等效区域。

And for those that haven't poked around in a lot of brains, certainly you, Eddie, have done far more of that than I have, but I've done my fair share in non-human species and a little bit in humans.

对于那些没有深入研究过的人来说，埃迪，你在这方面所做的事情肯定比我多得多，但我在非人类物种方面做了我应有的贡献，在人类方面也做了一点。

Almost every structure has a matching structure on the other side of the brain.

几乎每个结构在大脑的另一侧都有一个匹配的结构。

So when we say the hippocampus, we really mean two hippocampi, one on each side of the brain.

因此，当我们说海马体时，我们实际上指的是两个海马体，大脑的每一侧各一个。

But language, I was taught, is heavily lateralized.

但我被教导，语言是严重偏侧化的。

That is, that there's only one.

也就是说，只有一个。

So that raises two questions.

这就提出了两个问题。

One, is that true?

一、这是真的吗？

And if it is true, then what is the equivalent real estate on the opposite side of the brain doing?

如果这是真的，那么大脑另一侧的同等空间在做什么？

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

If it's not doing the same function that the one on the, say, the left side is performing.

如果它执行的功能与左侧的功能不同。

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

Well, that's one of those things that is, again, mostly true, not 100%.

嗯，这是其中一件大部分是正确的事情，但不是 100%。

And what I mean by that is that it's complicated.

我的意思是它很复杂。

So for people who are right-handed, 99% of the time, the language part of the brain is on the left side.

所以对于惯用右手的人来说，99%的时候，大脑的语言部分都在左侧。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And what is the equivalent brain area on the right side doing if it's not doing language?

如果右侧大脑区域不处理语言，它会做什么？

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

Well, the thing that's incredible is if you look at the right side and you look at it very carefully, either under an MRI or you actually look at the brain under slides at a microscope, it looks very, very similar.

嗯，令人难以置信的是，如果你仔细观察右侧，无论是在 MRI 下还是在显微镜下的幻灯片下观察大脑，它看起来都非常非常相似。

It's not identical, but it looks very, very similar.

它并不完全相同，但看起来非常非常相似。

All the gyri, which are the bumps on the brain that have the different contours, and the valleys that we call sulci, those all look basically the same, like there is a mirror anatomy on the left and right side.

所有的脑回，即大脑上具有不同轮廓的凸起，以及我们称为脑沟的山谷，它们看起来基本相同，就像左侧和右侧有一个镜像解剖结构。

And so it's not been so clear what's so special actually about the left side to house language.

因此，尚不清楚左侧语言到底有什么特别之处。

But what we do know, and this is what we use all the time in assessing and figuring out this before surgery, is if you're right-handed, 99% of the time the language is going to be on the left side of the brain.

但我们确实知道，这也是我们在手术前评估和弄清楚这一点时一直使用的方法，如果您是右利手，则 99% 的时间语言将位于大脑的左侧。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Is handedness genetic in any way?

惯用手有遗传因素吗？

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

When I grew up, a pen or a pencil or a crayon was placed into my hand, presumably, or I started using...

当我长大后，大概，一支钢笔、一支铅笔或一支蜡笔被放在我的手中，或者我开始使用......

My father was left-handed, and then where he grew up in South America, they forced him to force himself to become right-handed.

我父亲是左撇子，在他长大的南美洲，他们强迫他强迫自己变成右撇子。

They actually used to restrict the movement of his left hand, so he was forced to write.

他们竟然限制了他的左手的活动，让他被迫写字。

And then you have hook lefties-

然后你就有左撇子-

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

and hook righties.

和勾右手。

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I know this is a deep dive, and we probably don't want to go into every derivation of this.

我知道这是一个深入的研究，我们可能不想深入研究它的每一个推导过程。

But so for somebody who's left-handed, naturally just starts writing with the left hand, there's some genetic predisposition to being left-handed?

但是对于左撇子来说，自然而然地开始用左手写字，是否存在左撇子的遗传倾向？

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

Absolutely.

绝对的。

No question about it.

毫无疑问。

Handedness is not entirely, but strongly genetic.

惯用手并不完全是遗传因素，但具有很强的遗传性。

So there is something that ties all of this.

所以有一些东西将这一切联系在一起。

And what does handedness, for example, have to do with where the part of your brain that controls language?

例如，惯用手与大脑中控制语言的部分有什么关系？

Well, it turns out that the parts that control the hand are very close to the areas that really are responsible for the vocal tract.

事实证明，控制手的部分与真正负责声道的区域非常接近。

Again, part of the motor cortex and part of this brain area called the precentral gyrus.

同样，运动皮层的一部分和该大脑区域的一部分称为中央前回。

And there are some theories that because of their proximity, that these parts of the brain might develop together early in utero, and they might have a head start compared to the right side.

有一些理论认为，由于大脑的这些部分很接近，它们可能在子宫早期就一起发育，并且与右侧相比，它们可能会领先。

And because they have a head start, that things solidify there.

因为他们有一个领先的优势，所以事情就在那里巩固下来。

This is one theory of why this happens.

这是为什么会发生这种情况的一种理论。

In people who are left-handed, it still turns out that the vast majority of people have language on the left side, but it's not 99%, it's more like 70%.

在左利手的人中，事实证明绝大多数人的语言都在左侧，但不是 99%，更像是 70%。

So if you're left-handed, it's still more likely that the language part of your brain is going to be on the left side, but there's going to be a greater proportion, maybe 20%, 30%, where it's either in both hemispheres or on the right side.

因此，如果你是左撇子，那么你大脑的语言部分更有可能位于左侧，但比例更大，可能是 20%、30%，它要么位于两个半球，要么位于右侧。

And just to make this a little bit more interesting is that when people have strokes on the left side, and if they're lucky enough to recover from those strokes, sometimes that involves reorganization, this term that we called plasticity earlier, where the areas around where the stroke take on that new function in a way that they didn't have before.

让这更有趣的是，当人们左侧中风时，如果他们足够幸运能够从中风中恢复，有时这会涉及重组，这个术语我们之前称为可塑性，中风周围的区域以一种以前没有的方式发挥新功能。

That can certainly happen in the left hemisphere.

这肯定会发生在左半球。

But there are also instances where the right hemisphere can also start to take on the function of language, when it was once on the left and then transfers to the right.

但在某些情况下，右半球也可以开始承担语言功能，当时它曾经位于左侧，然后转移到右侧。

So the thing that I think about a lot is that the machinery probably exists on both sides, but we don't use them together all the time.

所以我经常思考的事情是，机器可能两边都存在，但我们并不总是一起使用它们。

In fact, we may strongly bias one side or the other, just like we use our two hands in very, very different ways.

事实上，我们可能会对一侧或另一侧产生强烈的偏见，就像我们以非常非常不同的方式使用两只手一样。

It's a little bit the same with the brain.

这与大脑有点相似。

Well, it's because of what we do with the brain that actually is why we use the hands in different ways.

嗯，正是因为我们用大脑所做的事情，实际上就是我们以不同方式使用双手的原因。

And the same thing goes for language, which is, again, the substrates, the organ, the language organ, the part of the brain that process it probably has very similar machinery on the left side as the right, and the right may have the capability to do it.

同样的情况也适用于语言，同样，它是基底、器官、语言器官、处理语言的大脑部分，左侧可能与右侧具有非常相似的机制，而右侧可能有能力做到这一点。

But in real everyday use, the brain specializes one of the sides in order for us to use it functionally.

但在实际的日常使用中，大脑会将其中一侧专门化，以便我们能够有效地使用它。

That's a theory.

这是一个理论。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You're bilingual, correct?

你是双语者，对吗？

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You speak English and Chinese?

你会说英语和汉语吗？

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

For people that are bilingual and that learn two or more lang-- well, bilingual is two, obviously, but learn both languages or let's say more languages from an early time in life, do they use the same brain area to generate that language?

对于双语并且学习两种或多种语言的人来说——嗯，双语显然是两种语言，但是从小就学习两种语言，或者说更多的语言，他们是否使用相同的大脑区域来生成该语言？

Or perhaps they use the left side to speak English and the right side to speak Chinese?

或者他们用左边说英语，用右边说中文？

Do we know anything about bilingualism in the brain?

我们对大脑中的双语了解吗？

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

I think we know a lot about bilingualism in the brain.

我认为我们对大脑中的双语现象了解很多。

The answers are still out there, the final answers on it, and part of the answer is yes, absolutely, we use some parts of the brain very similarly.

答案仍然在那里，最终的答案，部分答案是肯定的，绝对的，我们使用大脑的某些部分非常相似。

We actually have a study in the lab right now where we're looking at this, where people who speak one language or another or bilingual, and we're looking at how the brain activity patterns occur when they're hearing one language versus the other.

事实上，我们现在在实验室里有一项研究，我们正在研究这个问题，当人们说一种语言或另一种语言或双语时，我们正在研究当他们听到一种语言与另一种语言时大脑活动模式是如何发生的。

And what's striking to see, actually, is how overlapping they really can be, even though the person may have no idea of the language that they're hearing, the English part of the brain is still processing that and maybe trying to interpret it through an English lens, for example.

事实上，令人惊讶的是它们实际上是多么重叠，即使人们可能不知道他们所听到的语言，但大脑的英语部分仍在处理它，并且可能试图通过英语镜头来解释它。

So the short answer is that with bilingualism, there are shared circuitry.

所以简短的回答是，双语意味着共享电路。

There's this shared machinery in the brain that allows us to process both.

大脑中有一个共享的机制，可以让我们同时处理这两者。

But it's not identical.

但它并不完全相同。

It's the same part of the brain, but what it's doing with the signals can be very different.

这是大脑的同一部分，但它对信号的处理可能非常不同。

And what I mean by that precisely is not the instantaneous detecting of one sound to the next, but the memory of the sequences of those particular sounds that give rise to things like words and meaning.

我的意思并不是即时检测一个声音到下一个声音，而是对那些产生诸如单词和意义之类的特定声音的序列的记忆。

That can be highly variable from one individual to the next, and those neurons are very sensitive to the sequences of the sounds, even though the sounds themselves might have some overlap between languages.

每个人的情况可能存在很大差异，而且这些神经元对声音的顺序非常敏感，尽管声音本身可能在语言之间有一些重叠。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Fascinating.

令人着迷。

Okay, so we've talked about brain areas and a little bit about lateralization.

好的，我们已经讨论了大脑区域和一些偏侧化。

I want to get back to the hands and some things related-

我想回到手和一些相关的事情-

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

Right

右

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

to emotion in a little bit.

一点点地感动。

But maybe now we could go into those brain areas-

但也许现在我们可以进入那些大脑区域——

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

Okay

好的

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

and start to ask the question: what exactly is represented or mapped there?

并开始问一个问题：那里到底代表或映射了什么？

And for people who perhaps aren't familiar with brain mapping and representation in receptive fields, perhaps the simplest analogy might be the visual system, where I look at your face, I know you, I recognize you, and certainly there are brain areas that are responsible for face recognition.

对于那些可能不熟悉大脑映射和感受野表征的人来说，也许最简单的类比可能是视觉系统，我看着你的脸，我认识你，我认出你，当然还有负责面部识别的大脑区域。

But the fact that I know that that's your face, and for those listening, I'm looking at Eddie's face.

但事实上我知道那是你的脸，对于那些听的人来说，我正在看着埃迪的脸。

The fact that I know that that's your face at all is because we are well aware that there are cells that represent edges and that represent dark and light, and those all combine in what we call a hierarchical structure.

事实上，我知道那是你的脸，因为我们很清楚，有代表边缘、代表黑暗和光明的细胞，而这些细胞都组合成我们所说的分层结构。

They sort of build up from basic elements as simple as little dots, but then lines and things that move, et cetera, to give a coherent representation of the face.

它们是由像小点这样简单的基本元素构建起来的，然后是线条和移动的东西等等，以给出面部的连贯表示。

When I think about language, I think about words and just talking.

当我想到语言时，我想到的是文字和说话。

If I sit down to do a long podcast or I think about asking you a question, I don't even think about the words I want to say very much.

如果我坐下来做一个很长的播客或者我想问你一个问题，我什至不会想太多我想说的话。

I have to think about them a little bit, one would hope.

人们希望我必须稍微考虑一下它们。

But I don't think about individual syllables unless I'm trying to accent something, or it's a word that I have a particular difficulty saying, or I want to change the cadence, et cetera.

但我不会考虑单个音节，除非我想强调某些东西，或者这是一个我说起来特别困难的单词，或者我想改变节奏，等等。

So what's represented in the neurons, the nerve cells in these areas?

那么这些区域的神经元、神经细胞代表什么？

Are they representing vowels, consonants?

它们代表元音、辅音吗？

And how do things like inflection, like I occasionally will poke fun at upspeak.

诸如语调变化之类的事情是如何做到的，就像我偶尔会取笑上调一样。

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

Mm.

嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But there's, I think, a healthy, a normal version of upspeak where somebody's asking a question.

但我认为，有人提出问题时，有一种健康、正常的夸夸其谈的形式。

Like for instance, "What is that?" That's an appropriate use of upspeak, as opposed to saying something that is not a question and putting a lilt at the end of the sentence.

例如，“那是什么？”这是正确使用升调的方式，而不是说一些不是问题的内容并在句末轻快地说话。

Then we call that upspeak, which doesn't fit with what the person is saying.

然后我们称之为夸夸其谈，这与这个人所说的不符。

So what in the world is contained in these brain areas?

那么这些大脑区域到底包含着什么呢？

What is represented, to me, is perhaps one of the most interesting questions, and I know this lands square in your wheelhouse.

对我来说，所代表的内容可能是最有趣的问题之一，我知道这在你的驾驶室中是正确的。

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

Sure.

当然。

Let's get into this, Andrew, because this is one of the most exciting stuff that's happening right now, is understanding how the brain processes these exact questions.

让我们开始吧，安德鲁，因为这是现在发生的最令人兴奋的事情之一，就是了解大脑如何处理这些确切的问题。

And you asked me earlier, what is the difference between speech and language?

您之前问我，言语和语言有什么区别？

Speech corresponds to the communication signal.

语音对应于通信信号。

It corresponds to me moving my mouth and my vocal tract to generate words, and you're hearing these as an auditory signal.

它对应于我移动我的嘴和声道来生成单词，并且您将这些作为听觉信号听到。

Language is something much broader.

语言是更广泛的东西。

So it refers to what you're extracting from the words that I'm saying.

所以它指的是你从我所说的话中提取的内容。

We call that pragmatics, and sort of are you getting the gist of what I'm saying?

我们称之为实用主义，你明白我所说的要点了吗？

There's another aspect of it that we call semantics.

它还有另一个方面，我们称之为语义。

Do you understand the meaning of these words and the sentences?

你明白这些单词和句子的意思吗？

There's another part that we call syntax, which refers to how the words are assembled in a grammatical form.

还有另一部分我们称之为语法，它指的是单词如何以语法形式组装。

So those are all really critical parts of language, and speech is just one form of language.

所以这些都是语言真正关键的部分，而言语只是语言的一种形式。

There's many other forms, like sign language, reading.

还有许多其他形式，例如手语、阅读。

Those are all important modalities for reading.

这些都是重要的阅读方式。

Our research really focuses on this area that we're calling speech.

我们的研究真正集中在我们称之为语音的这个领域。

Again, the production of this audio signal, which you can't see, but your microphones are picking up.

同样，该音频信号的产生，您看不到，但您的麦克风正在拾取。

There are these vibrations in the air that are created by my vocal tract that are picked up by the microphone, in the case of this recording, but also picked up by the sensors in your ear.

空气中的这些振动是由我的声道产生的，在这段录音中，麦克风会拾取这些振动，但你耳朵中的传感器也会拾取这些振动。

The very tiny vibrations in your ear are picking that up and translating that into electrical activity.

你耳朵里非常微小的振动会接收到这些信号并将其转化为电活动。

And what the ear does at the periphery is translates all sounds into different frequencies.

耳朵在外围的作用是将所有声音转换成不同的频率。

So its main thing to do is to take a speech signal or any other kind of sound and decompose it, meaning separate that sound into different kind of signals.

因此，它的主要任务是获取语音信号或任何其他类型的声音并将其分解，这意味着将声音分离为不同类型的信号。

And in the case of hearing, what it's doing is separating it out into low, middle, high frequencies at a very high resolution.

就听觉而言，它所做的就是以非常高的分辨率将其分离为低、中、高频。

It's doing it very quickly, and it's doing it in a really fine way to separate all of those different sounds.

它的速度非常快，并且以一种非常好的方式来分离所有这些不同的声音。

So if you look at the periphery near the nerve that goes to your ear, those nerve fibers, some of them are tuned to low frequency, some of them are tuned to high frequency, some of them are tuned to the middle frequencies.

因此，如果你观察靠近耳朵的神经的外围，那些神经纤维，其中一些被调谐到低频，一些被调谐到高频，其中一些被调谐到中频。

And that is what your ear is doing.

这就是你的耳朵正在做的事情。

It's taking these words and splitting them up into different frequencies.

它将这些单词分成不同的频率。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And for those of you out there that aren't familiar with thinking about things in the so-called frequency space, bass tones would be lower frequencies and high-pitched tones would be higher frequencies, just to make sure everyone's on the same page.

对于那些不熟悉在所谓的频率空间中思考事物的人来说，低音音调将是较低的频率，高音调将是较高的频率，只是为了确保每个人都在同一页面上。

So the sound of my voice, the sound of your voice, or any sound in the environment is being broken down into these frequencies.

因此，我的声音、你的声音或环境中的任何声音都被分解为这些频率。

Are they being broken down into very narrow channels of frequency, or are they, I want to avoid nomenclature here, or are they Or are they being binned as fairly broad frequencies?

它们是否被分解为非常狭窄的频率通道，或者它们是，我想在这里避免命名，还是它们或者它们被分类为相当宽的频率？

Because we know low, medium, and high, but for instance, I can detect whether or not something's approaching me or moving away from me, depending on whether or not it sweeps louder or

因为我们知道低、中、高，但例如，我可以检测到某物是否正在接近我或远离我，这取决于它是否扫得更响亮或更响亮。

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

towards or away.

朝向或远离。

It's subtle, and of course, it's combined with what I see and my own movement, but how finely sliced is our perception of the auditory world?

它很微妙，当然，它与我所看到的和我自己的动作结合在一起，但我们对听觉世界的感知有多精细？

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

Oh, extraordinarily precise.

噢，异常精确。

We take these millisecond cues, the millisecond differences between the sound coming to one ear, let's say your right ear versus your left, to understand what direction that sound came from.

我们利用这些毫秒线索，即传到一只耳朵（比如说你的右耳和左耳）的声音之间的毫秒差异，来了解声音来自哪个方向。

Those are only millisecond differences, and that's how precise this works.

这些只是毫秒的差异，这就是它的精确度。

But on the other hand, it does a lot of computation on this.

但另一方面，它对此进行了大量的计算。

It does a lot of analysis as you go up, and a lot of our work is focused on the part of the brain that we call the cortex.

当你向上时，它会进行大量分析，我们的很多工作都集中在我们称为皮质的大脑部分。

The cortex is the outermost part of the brain where we believe that sounds are actually converted into words and language.

皮层是大脑的最外层部分，我们相信声音实际上在这里转化为单词和语言。

So there's this transformation where at the ear, words are decomposed and turned into these elemental frequency channels, and then as it goes up through the auditory system, hits the cortex.

因此，在耳朵里，单词被分解并转化为这些基本频率通道，然后当它向上穿过听觉系统时，到达皮质。

There are some things that happen, obviously, before it gets to the cortex.

显然，在到达大脑皮层之前会发生一些事情。

But when it gets to cortex, there's something special going on, which is that that part of the brain is looking for specific sounds.

但当它到达皮层时，就会发生一些特殊的事情，那就是大脑的那部分正在寻找特定的声音。

And specifically, what I mean by that is the sounds of human language, so the ones that are the different consonants and vowels in a different language.

具体来说，我的意思是人类语言的声音，即不同语言中的不同辅音和元音。

One of the ways that we have studied this is looking in patients who have epilepsy, and in a lot of these cases where the MRI looks completely normal, we have to put electrodes surgically on a part of the brain.

我们研究这一问题的方法之一是观察癫痫患者，在很多 MRI 看起来完全正常的病例中，我们必须通过手术将电极放置在大脑的一部分上。

The temporal lobe is a very, very common place.

颞叶是一个非常非常常见的地方。

So we've done a lot of our work looking at how the temporal lobe processes speech sounds because we're looking for where the seizures start, but then we're also doing brain mapping for language and speech so we can protect those areas.

因此，我们做了很多工作来研究颞叶如何处理语音，因为我们正在寻找癫痫发作的起始位置，但我们也在对语言和言语进行大脑绘图，以便我们可以保护这些区域。

We want to identify the areas that we want to remove to cure someone's seizures, but we also want to figure out the areas that are important for speech and language to protect those so that we can do a surgery that's effective and safe.

我们想要确定要切除的区域来治愈某人的癫痫发作，但我们也想找出对言语和语言重要的区域以保护这些区域，以便我们可以进行有效且安全的手术。

And so in our research, and why it's become a really important addition to our knowledge, is that we have electrodes directly recording from the human brain surface.

因此，在我们的研究中，以及为什么它成为我们知识的一个非常重要的补充，是因为我们有直接从人脑表面记录的电极。

A lot of technology we work with right now is recording on the order of millimeters, and they can record millisecond time resolution of neural activity.

我们现在使用的很多技术都是以毫米为单位进行记录，它们可以记录神经活动的毫秒时间分辨率。

And what we see is extraordinary patterns of activity when people hear words and sentences.

当人们听到单词和句子时，我们看到的是非凡的活动模式。

If you look at that part of the brain that we call Wernicke's area, in this part of the temporal lobe, this whole area lights up when you hear words or speech.

如果你观察大脑中我们称之为韦尼克区的那部分，即颞叶的这一部分，当你听到单词或讲话时，整个区域都会亮起。

And it's not in a way that is like a general light bulb warming up and it's generally lit up, but what you actually see is something much, much more complicated, which is a pattern of activity.

它不像一般的灯泡升温并通常会亮起来，但你实际看到的是更复杂的东西，这是一种活动模式。

And what we've done in the last 10 years is try to understand what does that pattern come from, and if we were to look at each individual site from that part of the brain, what would we see?

过去 10 年我们所做的就是尝试了解这种模式的来源，如果我们从大脑的该部分观察每个单独的部位，我们会看到什么？

What parts of words are being coded by electrical activity in those parts of the brain?

大脑这些部分的电活动正在编码单词的哪些部分？

Remember, the cortex is using electrical activity to transmit information and do analysis, and what we're doing is we're eavesdropping on this part of the brain as it's processing speech to try to understand what each individual site is doing.

请记住，皮层使用电活动来传输信息并进行分析，而我们正在做的是在大脑的这一部分处理语音时窃听它，以尝试了解每个单独的站点正在做什么。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And what are those sites doing?

这些网站在做什么？

Or could you give us some examples of what those sites are doing?

或者您能给我们举一些例子来说明这些网站正在做什么吗？

So for instance, are they sites that are specific for, or we could say even listening for consonants or for vowels or for inflection or for emotionality?

例如，它们是专门针对辅音、元音、音调变化还是情感的网站吗？

What's in there?

里面有什么？

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

Okay, well-

好吧，好吧——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

What makes these cells fire?

是什么让这些细胞着火？

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

What gets them excited-

是什么让他们兴奋——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah

是啊

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

...

...

what gets them going is hearing speech.

让他们前进的是听到演讲。

In particular, there are some of these really focal sites, again, just on the order of a millimeter or at some level, single neurons, that are tuned to consonants.

特别是，其中有一些真正的焦点位置，再次，只是在毫米的数量级或在某种程度上，单个神经元，被调整为辅音。

Some are tuned to vowels.

有些调整为元音。

Some are tuned to particular features of consonants.

有些是针对辅音的特定特征进行调整的。

What I mean by that are different categories of consonants.

我的意思是不同类别的辅音。

There's a class of consonants that we call plosive consonants.

有一类辅音我们称为爆破辅音。

There's a little bit of linguistic jargon, but I'm going to make a point here with that, is that certain classes of sounds, when you make them, it requires you to actually close your mouth temporarily.

有一些语言术语，但我要在这里强调一点，就是某些类别的声音，当你发出它们时，它需要你暂时闭上嘴。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Now I'm going to be thinking about this.

现在我要考虑这个问题。

So plosive, like saying the word plosive requires that.

如此爆破音，就像说爆破音这个词需要这样。

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

Exactly.

正是如此。

So what's cool about that is that we actually have no idea what's going on in our mouth when we speak.

很酷的一点是，当我们说话时，我们实际上并不知道嘴里在说什么。

We really have no idea.

我们真的不知道。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Some people definitely have no idea.

有些人肯定不知道。

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Well, not just in terms of what you're saying sometimes-

好吧，不只是就你有时所说的而言-

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Sure

当然可以

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

...

...

but actually how you're actually moving-

但实际上你实际上是如何移动的-

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right

右

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

...

...

the different parts of vocal tract.

声道的不同部分。

And I have a feeling if we actually required understanding, we would never be able to speak because it's so complex.

我有一种感觉，如果我们真的需要理解，我们将永远无法说话，因为它是如此复杂。

It's such a complex feat.

这是一项非常复杂的壮举。

Some people would say it's the most complex motor thing that we do as a species, is just speaking.

有些人会说，说话是我们作为一个物种所做的最复杂的运动。

Not the extreme feats of acrobatics or athleticism, but-

不是杂技或运动的极限技艺，而是——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Oh, and especially-

哦，尤其是——

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

...

...

just speaking

只是说话

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

well, and especially when one observes opera or people who, freestyle rappers.

好吧，尤其是当人们观察歌剧或自由式说唱歌手时。

And of course, it's not just the lips, it's the tongue.

当然，不仅仅是嘴唇，还有舌头。

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And you've mentioned two Other structures, pharynx and larynx are the main ones that the-

你提到了两个其他结构，咽和喉是主要的结构-

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

Can you tell us, just educate us at a superficial level what does pharynx and larynx do differentially?

您能否简单地告诉我们，咽和喉的作用有何不同？

Because I think most people aren't going to be familiar with that.

因为我认为大多数人不会熟悉这一点。

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

Okay, sure.

好吧，当然。

So I'll talk primarily about the larynx here for a second, which is that if you think about when we're speaking, really what we're doing is we're shaping the breath.

所以我在这里主要谈谈喉部，如果你想想我们说话的时候，我们实际上所做的是塑造呼吸。

So even before you get to the larynx, you got to start with the expiration.

因此，即使在到达喉部之前，您也必须从呼气开始。

So we fill up our lungs, and then we push the air out.

所以我们填满肺部，然后将空气排出。

That's a normal part of breathing.

这是呼吸的正常部分。

And what is really amazing about speech and language is that we evolved to take advantage of that normal physiologic thing at a larynx.

言语和语言真正令人惊奇的是，我们进化到能够利用喉部的正常生理功能。

And what the larynx does is that when you're exhaling, it brings the vocal folds together.

喉部的作用是，当你呼气时，它将声带聚集在一起。

Some people call them vocal cords.

有些人称它们为声带。

They're not really cords, they're really vocal folds.

它们实际上并不是声带，而是声带。

They're two pieces of tissue that come together, and a muscle brings them together.

它们是结合在一起的两块组织，并且肌肉将它们连接在一起。

And then what happens is when the air comes through the vocal folds, when they're together, they vibrate, at really high frequencies, like 100 to 200 hertz.

然后发生的事情是，当空气穿过声带时，当它们在一起时，它们会以非常高的频率（例如 100 到 200 赫兹）振动。

Yours is probably about 100 hertz.

你的频率可能约为 100 赫兹。

The average-

平均-

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Whereas yours is 200 .

而你的是 200 。

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

No. Most male voices are around 100, okay?

不会。大多数男声都在 100 左右，好吗？

And then the average female voice is around 200 hertz.

然后平均女性声音约为 200 赫兹。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Oh, and as you know, I've always had the same voice.

哦，如你所知，我一直有同样的声音。

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

This was a point of shame when I was a kid.

这是我小时候的耻辱。

Folks, my voice never changed.

各位，我的声音从未改变。

I always had the same voice.

我总是有同样的声音。

This is a discussion for another time.

这是另一次讨论。

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Well, it's a great voice, a great baritone voice.

嗯，这是一个很棒的声音，一个很棒的男中音。

But I know in your voice, it's a low-frequency voice, and the reason why men and women generally have different voice qualities is it has to do with the size of the larynx and the shape of it.

但我知道你的声音是低频的声音，而男女之所以普遍音质不同，是与喉部的大小和形状有关。

Okay, so in general, men have a larger voice box or larynx, and the vibrating frequency, the resonance frequency of the vocal folds when the air comes through them is about 100 hertz for men and about 200 for women.

好吧，一般来说，男性的声带或喉部较大，振动频率，即空气通过声带时的共振频率，男性约为 100 赫兹，女性约为 200 赫兹。

So what happens is, okay, so you take a breath in, and then as the air is coming out, the vocal folds come together, and the air goes through.

所以发生的事情是，好吧，所以你吸气，然后当空气呼出时，声带聚集在一起，空气通过。

That creates the sound of the voice that we call voicing, and that's the energy of your voice.

这就产生了我们称之为发声的声音，这就是你声音的能量。

It's not just your voice characteristic, it's the energy of your voice is coming from the larynx there.

这不仅仅是你的声音特征，而是你声音的能量来自那里的喉部。

It's a noise.

这是一个噪音。

And then it's the source of the voice.

然后就是声音的来源。

And then what happens is that energy, that sound goes up through the parts of the vocal tract, like the pharynx, into the oral cavity, which is your mouth and your tongue and your lips.

然后发生的事情是，能量、声音通过声道的各个部分（比如咽部）上升到口腔，也就是你的嘴、你的舌头和你的嘴唇。

And what those things are doing is that they're shaping the air in particular ways that create consonants and vowels.

这些东西的作用是，它们以特定的方式塑造空气，从而产生辅音和元音。

So that's what I mean by shaping the breath.

这就是我所说的塑造呼吸的意思。

It just starts with this exhalation.

它只是从这个呼气开始。

You generate the voice in the larynx, and then everything above the larynx is moving around, just like the way my mouth is doing right now, to shape that air into particular patterns that you can hear as words.

你在喉部发出声音，然后喉部上方的所有东西都在移动，就像我的嘴现在所做的那样，将空气塑造成特定的模式，你可以像单词一样听到。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Fascinating, and immediately makes me wonder about more primitive or non-learned vocalizations, like crying or laughter.

令人着迷，立即让我想知道更原始或非习得的发声，例如哭泣或笑声。

Babies will cry, babies will show laughter.

婴儿会哭，婴儿会笑。

Are those sorts of vocalizations produced by the language areas, like Wernicke's, or do they have their own unique neural structures?

这些发声是由语言区域产生的，就像韦尼克那样，还是它们有自己独特的神经结构？

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

Yeah, interesting question.

是的，有趣的问题。

So we call those vocalizations.

所以我们称之为发声。

A vocalization is basically where someone can create a sound, like a cry or a moan, that kind of sound, and it also involves the exhalation of air.

发声基本上是指某人可以发出声音，例如哭泣或呻吟之类的声音，并且还涉及呼气。

It also involves some phonation at the level of the larynx where the vocal folds come together to create that audible sound.

它还涉及喉部的一些发声，声带聚集在一起产生可听见的声音。

But it turns out that those are actually different areas.

但事实证明，这些实际上是不同的领域。

So people who have injuries in the speech and language areas oftentimes can still moan.

因此，言语和语言区域受伤的人通常仍然会呻吟。

They can still vocalize, and it is a different part of the brain.

他们仍然可以发声，而且这是大脑的不同部分。

I would say an area that even non-human primates have that can be specialized for vocalization.

我想说的是，即使是非人类灵长类动物也有专门用于发声的区域。

It's a different form of communication than words, for example.

例如，这是一种与语言不同的交流形式。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

The intricacy of these circuits in the brain and their connections to the pharynx and larynx, it's almost overwhelming in terms of thinking about just how complicated it must be, and yet some general features and principles are starting to emerge from your work and from the work of others.

大脑中的这些回路及其与咽和喉的连接的复杂性，在思考它必须有多么复杂方面几乎是压倒性的，然而一些一般特征和原则开始从你和其他人的工作中浮现出来。

If we think about that work and we think about, for instance, Wernicke's area, if I were to record from neurons in Wernicke's area at different locations, would I find that there's any kind of systematic layout?

如果我们考虑这项工作，例如韦尼克区，如果我要记录韦尼克区不同位置的神经元，我会发现存在某种系统布局吗？

For instance, in terms of, we talked about sound frequency.

例如，就声音而言，我们谈到了声音频率。

We know that low frequencies are represented at one end of a structure and high frequencies at the other.

我们知道低频代表结构的一端，高频代表另一端。

This is true actually, at least from my earlier training, within the ear itself, within the cochlea.

事实上，至少从我早期的训练来看，在耳朵本身、耳蜗内确实如此。

The early work of von Bekesy and from cadavers, right?

冯·贝克西的早期作品来自尸体，对吧？

They actually figured this out from dead people, which is incredible.

他们居然从死人身上找出了这一点，这真是令人难以置信。

A fascinating literature people should look up.

人们应该查阅的引人入胜的文献。

And in the visual system, we know that, for instance, visual position, where things are, is mapped systematically.

例如，在视觉系统中，我们知道视觉位置（事物所在的位置）是系统映射的。

In other words, neurons that sit next to each other in the brain represent portions of visual space that are next to each other in the real world.

换句话说，大脑中彼此相邻的神经元代表了现实世界中彼此相邻的视觉空间部分。

What is the organization of language in areas like Wernicke's and Broca's?

韦尼克区和布罗卡区等区域的语言组织是怎样的？

For instance, I think of the vowels, A, E, I, O, U As a kind of a coherent unit, but do I find the A neurons are next to the E neurons or next to the-- Or the A, E, I, O, U, is that vowel representation also laid out in order, or is it kind of salt and pepper?

例如，我认为元音 A、E、I、O、U 是一种连贯的单元，但我是否发现 A 神经元紧邻 E 神经元或紧邻——或者 A、E、I、O、U，元音表示也是按顺序排列的，还是有点盐和胡椒？

Is it random?

是随机的吗？

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

That's been one of the most important questions we've been trying to answer for the past decade.

这是过去十年来我们一直试图回答的最重要的问题之一。

So there is a part of the brain that we call the primary auditory cortex, and the primary auditory cortex is deep in the temporal lobe.

所以大脑中有一个部分我们称之为初级听觉皮层，初级听觉皮层位于颞叶深处。

And if you looked at that part of the brain, there is a map of different sound frequencies.

如果你观察大脑的那个部分，就会发现有一张不同声音频率的地图。

So if you look at the front of that primary auditory cortex, you'll find low-frequency sounds.

因此，如果您观察初级听觉皮层的前部，您会发现低频声音。

And then as you march backwards in that cortex, it goes from low to medium to high frequencies.

然后，当你在该皮层中向后行进时，它会从低频到中频再到高频。

It's organized in this really nice and orderly way.

它的组织方式非常好且有序。

And it turns out there's just not just one, there's mirrors of that tone frequency map in the primary auditory cortex.

事实证明，初级听觉皮层中不仅存在一个音调频率图的镜像。

The areas that are really important for speech are on the side of that.

对演讲真正重要的区域就在旁边。

And we now think that speech can go straight to the speech cortex without having to go through the primary auditory cortex, that it has its own pathway to get to the part of the brain that processes speech.

我们现在认为语音可以直接到达语音皮层，而不必经过初级听觉皮层，它有自己的路径到达大脑处理语音的部分。

And when we've looked at that question about is there a map, the short answer is yes, there is a map.

当我们研究“是否有地图”这个问题时，简短的回答是“有”，有地图。

But it is not structured universally across all people in a way that we can clearly see right now.

但它并没有以我们现在可以清楚地看到的方式普遍适用于所有人。

It is like a salt and pepper map of the different features in speech.

它就像语音中不同特征的盐和胡椒图。

So before we talked about these sounds that are called plosives.

在我们讨论这些被称为爆破音的声音之前。

You make a plosive when the mouth or something in the oral cavity closes temporarily.

当嘴或口腔中的某物暂时闭合时，您会发出爆破音。

And when it opens, that creates that fast plosive sound.

当它打开时，就会产生快速的爆破声。

So when you say dad or the ball, like the V in ball, that kind of thing, you will notice that your lips actually close, and then it's the release of that that creates that particular sounds.

所以当你说“爸爸”或“球”时，比如“球”中的“V”之类的东西，你会注意到你的嘴唇实际上是闭合的，然后释放它就会产生那种特殊的声音。

Okay, so those are the sounds that we call plosive.

好的，这些就是我们所说的爆破音。

Those are like badaga, pataka.

这些就像 badaga、pataka。

Those are a certain class of consonants that we call plosive sounds.

这些是一类辅音，我们称之为爆破音。

There's another class of sounds that we call fricatives in linguistics.

还有另一类声音，我们在语言学中称为摩擦音。

Fricatives are created by turbulence in the airstream as it comes out through the mouth.

摩擦音是由从嘴里出来时气流的湍流产生的。

And the way that we make that turbulence is getting the mouth and the lips to close almost until they're completely shut.

我们制造这种湍流的方式是让嘴巴和嘴唇几乎闭合，直到完全闭合。

Or putting the tongue to near the teeth to almost get it completely shut, but just have a narrow aperture.

或者将舌头放在牙齿附近，几乎使其完全闭合，但只有一个狭窄的缝隙。

That creates a turbulence in the airflow that we perceive as a high-frequency sound.

这会在气流中产生湍流，我们将其视为高频声音。

So those are the sounds like sha and tha, those kind of things.

这些就是 sha 和 tha 之类的声音。

If you look at the frequencies, they're higher frequencies, and those are created by specific movements that you constrict the airflow to create turbulence, and we hear it as sha, sa, tha.

如果你看一下频率，你会发现它们是更高的频率，这些频率是由特定的运动产生的，你压缩气流以产生湍流，我们听到的声音是“sha”，“sa”，“tha”。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So if I say that.

所以如果我这么说的话。

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

Exactly.

正是如此。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And as opposed to a plosive where I'd say explosive.

与我所说的爆炸性的爆破音相反。

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Now, of course, I'm emphasizing here.

当然，现在我在这里强调。

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Well, this explains something and solves a mystery, which is recently I've been fascinated by the work of a physician scientist back east, Dr. Shanna Swan, who's done a lot of work on things that are contained in pesticides and foods that are changing hormone levels, and she refers to phthalates-

嗯，这解释了一些事情并解决了一个谜团，最近我对东部一位医学科学家 Shanna Swan 博士的工作很着迷，她对农药和食品中所含的改变激素水平的物质做了很多工作，她指的是邻苯二甲酸盐——

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

which is spelled P-- So it's both a plosive and-

拼写为 P——所以它既是爆破音，又是——

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

a tha.

阿塔。

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So it's combining the two, and it's one of the most difficult words in the English language to pronounce, second only perhaps to the correct pronunciation of ophthalmology.

所以它是两者的结合，它是英语中最难发音的单词之一，也许仅次于眼科的正确发音。

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So it's a combination of a plosive and one of these tha sounds, and that's probably why it's difficult.

所以它是爆破音和其中一个 tha 声音的组合，这可能就是它困难的原因。

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

That's exactly right.

完全正确。

In fact, we have a term for that.

事实上，我们对此有一个术语。

That's called a consonant cluster.

这就是所谓的辅音簇。

So sometimes syllables will just have one consonant.

所以有时音节只有一个辅音。

But when we start stacking certain syllables in a sequence, and there's rules that actually govern which consonants can be in a particular sequence for a given language, that makes it more complicated.

但是，当我们开始按序列堆叠某些音节时，并且存在实际控制哪些辅音可以处于给定语言的特定序列中的规则，这使得它变得更加复杂。

And certain languages have a lot more consonant clusters than others.

某些语言比其他语言有更多的辅音簇。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

For instance?

例如？

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

So for instance, Russian, for example, has a lot of consonant clusters.

例如，俄语有很多辅音簇。

English has a lot of them.

英语有很多这样的。

There are other languages that have very, very few.

还有其他语言的数量非常非常少。

For example, Hawaiian.

例如夏威夷语。

Hawaiian has an inventory of about 12 to 14 different phonemes, 14 different consonants and vowels.

夏威夷语有大约 12 到 14 个不同的音素、14 个不同的辅音和元音。

English, on contrast, has about 40 different consonants and vowels.

相比之下，英语有大约 40 个不同的辅音和元音。

So languages have different inventories.

所以语言有不同的库存。

They can overlap for sure, but different languages use different sound elements, combine and recombine those elements to give rise to different words and meanings.

它们肯定可以重叠，但不同的语言使用不同的声音元素，组合和重新组合这些元素以产生不同的单词和含义。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Can we say that there is a most complicated language out there, or among the most complicated, would it be Russian?

我们是否可以说世界上有一种最复杂的语言，或者最复杂的语言之一，它会是俄语吗？

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

It's definitely high up there.

那里肯定很高。

English is up there, too, actually.

事实上，英语也在那里。

Yeah, German as well.

是的，还有德国人。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And in terms of learning multiple languages during development, my understanding is that if one wants to become bilingual or trilingual, best to learn those languages simultaneously during development, ideally before age 12, if one hopes to not have an accent in speaking them later.

至于在发展过程中学习多种语言，我的理解是，如果一个人想成为双语或三语者，最好在发展过程中同时学习这些语言，最好是在12岁之前，如果一个人希望以后说这些语言时不会有口音。

Is that correct, or do you want to revise that now?

这是正确的吗？或者您现在想修改吗？

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

Well, basically, the earlier and-- The earlier is better.

嗯，基本上，越早——越早越好。

The more intense it is and the more immersive it is.

越是强烈，越是身临其境。

The longer that you can be exposed to that is really important.

您接触这一点的时间越长，这一点非常重要。

A lot of people can get exposed to it early and basically lose it.

很多人可能很早就接触到它，但基本上就失去了它。

Even though it's quote unquote during that sensitive period, unless it's maintained, it can be very easily lost.

即使在敏感时期它被引用了，但除非维护它，否则它很容易丢失。

Then I think another aspect of it that's very interesting is some of the social Requirements for it too.

然后我认为它的另一个非常有趣的方面是它的一些社会要求。

It's pretty clear that you can only go so far, just listening to these sounds from a tape recording or something like that.

很明显，你只能走这么远，只是听录音带或类似的东西中的这些声音。

There's something extra about real human interactions that activates the brain's sensitivity to different speech sounds, allows us to become specialized for them, for a given language.

真实的人类互动有一些额外的东西，它可以激活大脑对不同语音的敏感性，使我们能够专门针对它们、针对特定的语言。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So returning to what's mapped, what the representations are in the brain.

那么回到映射的内容，即大脑中的表征。

I'm starting to get a picture now based on these plosives and these "th" sounds.

我现在开始根据这些爆破音和这些“th”音来了解情况。

And what I find so interesting and logical about that is it maps to the motor structures and the actual pronunciation of the sounds, not necessarily to the meaning of the individual words.

我发现如此有趣且符合逻辑的是，它映射到运动结构和声音的实际发音，而不一定映射到单个单词的含义。

Now, of course, it's related to the meaning of the individual words, but it makes good sense to me why something as complex as language, both to understand and to generate, would map to something that is essentially motor in design because, as you point out, I have to generate these sounds, and I have to hear them generated from others.

现在，当然，它与各个单词的含义有关，但对我来说，为什么像语言这样复杂的东西，既要理解又要生成，会映射到本质上是设计中的运动的东西，因为正如你所指出的，我必须生成这些声音，并且我必须听到其他人生成的声音，这对我来说很有意义。

However, there's reading and there's writing, and writing is certainly motor.

然而，有阅读，也有写作，而写作当然是运动性的。

Reading involves some motor commands of the eyes, et cetera.

阅读涉及眼睛的一些运动命令等等。

Where do reading and writing come into this picture?

阅读和写作在这幅图景中从何而来？

Are they in parallel with, as we would say in neuroscience, or are they embedded within the same structures?

它们是平行的，就像我们在神经科学中所说的那样，还是嵌入在相同的结构中？

Are they part of the same series of computations?

它们是同一系列计算的一部分吗？

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

Yeah.

是的。

So, to address the first part is that we've got this map of these different parts of consonants and vowels, and when we look at how they lay out in this part of the brain that we call Wernicke's area, we've spent a lot of time really just dissecting this millimeter by millimeter.

因此，为了解决第一部分，我们已经得到了辅音和元音这些不同部分的地图，当我们观察它们在我们称为韦尼克区的大脑部分中的布局时，我们花了很多时间实际上只是一毫米一毫米地解剖。

The term that you used is very apropos.

您使用的术语非常恰当。

It's salt and pepper.

这是盐和胡椒。

It's not random.

这不是随机的。

There is this kind of selectivity to these individual speech sounds, and one point I want to make about it is this, is that in English, for example, there are about 40 different phonemes.

这些单独的语音存在这种选择性，我想指出的一点是，例如，在英语中，大约有 40 个不同的音素。

Phonemes are just consonants or vowels or individual speech segments.

音素只是辅音、元音或单个语音片段。

But these articulatory features that you refer to, for example, the characteristic sounds that are generated by specific movements in the mouth.

但是，您所指的这些发音特征，例如，由口腔中的特定运动产生的特征声音。

You can more or less reduce that to about 12 different features, okay?

您可以或多或少地将其减少到大约 12 个不同的功能，好吗？

These are specific movements of the tongue, the jaw, the lips, the larynx.

这些是舌头、下巴、嘴唇、喉部的特定运动。

There are about 12 of these movements.

这些动作大约有12个。

And just like you said, Andrew, by themselves, they have no meaning.

就像你说的，安德鲁，它们本身没有任何意义。

They're just movements.

它们只是动作。

But what's incredible about it is that you take these 12 movements and you put them in combinations and you start putting them in sequence.

但令人难以置信的是，你将这 12 个动作组合起来，然后开始按顺序排列。

We, as humans, use those 12 set of features to generate all words.

作为人类，我们使用这 12 组特征来生成所有单词。

And because we can generate nearly an infinite number of words with that code of just 12 features, we have something that generates essentially all possible meaning.

因为我们可以用仅 12 个特征的代码生成几乎无限数量的单词，所以我们拥有可以生成基本上所有可能含义的东西。

Because that's what we do as humans, we generate meanings.

因为这就是我们作为人类所做的事情，我们创造了意义。

I'm trying to communicate one idea to another, which to me is extraordinary.

我试图将一个想法传达给另一个想法，这对我来说是非凡的。

A parallel would be, for example, DNA.

例如，DNA 就是一个类似的例子。

There's four base pairs in DNA, but with those four base pairs in a specific sequence can generate an entire code for life.

DNA中有四个碱基对，但是通过这四个碱基对的特定序列可以生成生命的完整代码。

And speech is the same way.

言语也是如此。

It's like you've got these fundamental elements that by themselves have no meaning, but when you put them together, give rise to every possible meaning.

就好像你拥有这些基本元素，它们本身没有任何意义，但是当你把它们放在一起时，就会产生所有可能的意义。

So with regard to your second point about reading and writing, it's a fascinating question.

所以关于你关于阅读和写作的第二点，这是一个有趣的问题。

Speech and language is part of who we are as humans.

言语和语言是我们人类的一部分。

That's part of how we evolved, and it's hardwired and molded by experience.

这是我们进化的一部分，它是根深蒂固的，是由经验塑造的。

Reading and writing are a human invention.

阅读和写作是人类的发明。

It's something that was added on to the architecture of the brain.

它是添加到大脑结构中的东西。

And because reading and writing are fairly recent in human evolution, it's essentially too quick for anything to have a dramatic change in, let's say, a new brain area or some kind of specialization.

而且，由于阅读和写作在人类进化中相当晚近，所以对于任何事物来说，比如说新的大脑区域或某种专业化，发生巨大的变化都太快了。

Instead, what happens is that whenever any kind of behavior becomes ultra-specialized, in any of us or any organism, we can sort of take some areas that are normally involved with vision, for example, and specialize it for the purpose of reading.

相反，每当我们任何人或任何有机体的任何一种行为变得超专业化时，我们就可以采取一些通常与视觉相关的领域，例如，并将其专门用于阅读的目的。

So all of us have a part of our brain in the back of the temporal lobe that interfaces with occipital visual cortex that we call a visual word form area.

因此，我们所有人的大脑都有一个位于颞叶后部的部分，它与枕叶视觉皮层相连，我们称之为视觉词形区域。

There's actually a part of the brain that is very sensitive to seeing words, either typed or handwritten.

实际上，大脑的一部分对看到的文字非常敏感，无论是打字的还是手写的。

There's a part of the brain that also is sensitive to seeing things like faces.

大脑的一部分对看到面孔等事物也很敏感。

So these are things that are all conditioned on what's important to survive.

所以这些都是以生存的重要性为条件的。

So reading and writing are an invention, and there are things that have mapped to functions that the brain already has.

因此，阅读和写作是一项发明，有些东西已经映射到大脑已有的功能。

And one of the really important things about reading and writing is that when we learn to read and write, especially with the reading part, it maps to the part of the brain that we've been talking about, which is the part that's processing speech sounds.

关于阅读和写作真正重要的事情之一是，当我们学习阅读和写作时，尤其是阅读部分，它会映射到我们一直在谈论的大脑部分，即处理语音的部分。

So some of us kind of think about it, these are two different things.

所以我们中的一些人想一想，这是两件不同的事情。

One is hearing sounds through your ears, the other is reading, where you're actually seeing things through your eyes and then getting into the language system.

一种是通过耳朵听到声音，另一种是阅读，你实际上是通过眼睛看到事物，然后进入语言系统。

Well, it turns out That the auditory speech cortex is the primal and primitive fundamental area that's really important for speech.

事实证明，听觉言语皮层是对言语非常重要的原始基本区域。

And what happens with the reading is once it gets through that visual cortex, it's going to try to map those reading signals to the part of the brain that's trying to make sense of sounds, the sounds of words, what we call phonology.

阅读时发生的事情是，一旦它通过视觉皮层，它就会尝试将这些阅读信号映射到大脑中试图理解声音、单词的声音，即我们所说的音韵学的部分。

Now, why is this important?

现在，为什么这很重要？

It has a lot of relevance to how we learn to write.

它与我们如何学习写作有很大关系。

And in some kids with dyslexia, dyslexia is a neurological condition where a child, in some cases an adult, has trouble reading, for example.

在一些患有阅读障碍的孩子中，阅读障碍是一种神经系统疾病，例如，儿童（有时是成人）在阅读方面存在困难。

And in many of those cases, it's because that mapping between how we see the words to the way that the brain processes the sounds is something different.

在许多情况下，这是因为我们看待单词的方式与大脑处理声音的方式之间的映射是不同的。

It's a little bit different than people who can read really well.

这与阅读能力很强的人有点不同。

So when you're reading, a lot of times, you're actually activating the part of the brain that is processing the words that you hear.

因此，当你阅读时，很多时候，你实际上是在激活大脑中处理你听到的单词的部分。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

What is the current treatment for dyslexia?

目前阅读障碍的治疗方法是什么？

I've heard that it's a deficit in some of the motion processing systems of the visual system.

我听说这是视觉系统的某些运动处理系统的缺陷。

People, their eyes are jumping as opposed to more linear reading across, or I suppose if it were Chinese, it would be I don't want to presume people are always reading English, or I suppose if it's Hebrew, they're going from the opposite side of the page.

人们，他们的眼睛在跳跃，而不是更线性的阅读，或者我想如果是中文，我不想假设人们总是在阅读英语，或者我想如果是希伯来语，他们会从页面的另一侧阅读。

What can be done for dyslexia, and do any of the modern treatments for dyslexia involve changing things from the speech side as opposed to just the, quote-unquote, reading side, given that speech and reading are interconnected?

可以为阅读障碍做些什么？考虑到言语和阅读是相互关联的，现代阅读障碍的治疗方法是否涉及从言语方面进行改变，而不是仅仅从阅读方面进行改变？

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

Yeah, absolutely.

是的，绝对是。

So again, I think in the beginning, people might have thought this was purely a visual abstraction or something really just about the visual system, but there's been more recognition that it could be both, or it could be either, depending on the particular instance.

所以，我认为一开始，人们可能认为这纯粹是一种视觉抽象或真正与视觉系统有关的东西，但人们更多地认识到它可能是两者，也可能是其中之一，具体取决于特定的情况。

It's very clear that there are many kids with dyslexia where the problem is a problem of phonological awareness.

很明显，有许多患有阅读障碍的孩子，其问题在于语音意识的问题。

So it can be very hard to detect because they may understand the words that you were saying, but because the brain is so good at pattern recognition, sometimes even if the individual speech sounds are not crystal clear, it can compensate that so that you can have an individual who can hear the words but not be able to essentially hear them when they're reading those same words.

因此，它可能很难被发现，因为他们可能理解你所说的单词，但由于大脑非常擅长模式识别，有时即使单个语音听起来不太清晰，它也可以补偿这一点，这样你就可以让一个人可以听到这些单词，但在阅读相同单词时基本上无法听到它们。

And so what can happen with that is that you can have this disconnection between what they're seeing and what they need in order to hear it as words and process it as language.

因此，可能会发生的情况是，你可能会在他们所看到的内容与他们需要的内容之间出现这种脱节，以便将其作为单词来听到并将其作为语言进行处理。

And so skilled readers usually need that route first.

因此熟练的读者通常首先需要这条路线。

They've got to map the vision to the sound in order to get that sort of foundation.

他们必须将视觉与声音对应起来才能获得这样的基础。

But then over time, the reading has its direct connection to the language parts of the brain, and we don't necessarily always need to map to sounds.

但随着时间的推移，阅读与大脑的语言部分有直接的联系，我们不一定总是需要映射到声音。

You can basically develop a parallel route.

基本上你可以开发一条并行的路线。

And we, as readers, actually use both all the time.

作为读者，我们实际上一直在使用两者。

So, for example, if it's a new word that you've never seen before, sometimes you try to pronounce it in your mind and try to hear what that word is.

因此，举例来说，如果这是一个您以前从未见过的新单词，有时您会尝试在脑海中发音并尝试听出该单词是什么。

Even though you're not actually saying it, you're trying to just generate what those sounds might be like.

即使你实际上并没有这么说，你只是试图产生这些声音可能是什么样的。

And that's the part where we're kind of relying on how we learn to read in the first place, which is mapping those word images to the sounds that go along with them.

这就是我们首先依赖于学习阅读方式的部分，即将这些单词图像映射到伴随它们的声音。

But in other times, if you're a really proficient reader, you're just seeing the words, and you can map them directly to meaning without having to go through that process.

但在其他时候，如果您是一位真正熟练的读者，您只需看到单词，就可以将它们直接映射到含义，而无需经历该过程。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah, I'm a big fan of listening to audiobooks, and of course, I also listen to podcasts quite a lot.

是的，我非常喜欢听有声读物，当然，我也经常听播客。

But I also am a strong believer, based on the research that I've seen, that reading books, physical books, could be on Kindle, I suppose, but reading a physical book is useful for being able to articulate well and structure sentences and build what are essentially paragraphs, which is what I'm required to do when I do solo episodes of the podcast.

但我也坚信，根据我所看到的研究，我认为阅读书籍、实体书可以在 Kindle 上进行，但阅读实体书对于能够很好地表达、结构句子和构建本质上的段落很有用，这就是我在制作播客的独立剧集时需要做的事情。

I've noticed over the years as text messaging has become more popular, and there's essentially an erosion of punctuation or the need to have complete sentences, and now that's sort of transferred to email as well.

多年来我注意到，随着短信变得越来越流行，标点符号基本上被侵蚀或需要完整的句子，现在这也转移到了电子邮件中。

It's become acceptable to just say fragmented sentences in email, and it seems likely that it's starting to impact the way that people speak as well.

在电子邮件中只说零碎的句子已经变得可以接受，而且它似乎也开始影响人们说话的方式。

And I don't think this has anything to do with intelligence or education level, but are you aware of any evidence that how we read and what we read and whether or not we consume information purely through reading or mainly through auditory sources, does it change the way that we speak?

我不认为这与智力或教育水平有任何关系，但你是否知道有任何证据表明我们如何阅读和阅读什么，以及我们是否纯粹通过阅读或主要通过听觉来源来消费信息，这是否会改变我们说话的方式？

Because after all, Wernicke's and Broca's area and the other auditory and speech production areas are heavily intermeshed, and so it would make perfect sense to me that what we hear and the patterns of sound that are being communicated to us would also change the way that we speak.

因为毕竟，韦尼克区和布罗卡区以及其他听觉和言语产生区域紧密相连，因此对我来说，我们听到的内容和传达给我们的声音模式也会改变我们说话的方式，这是完全合理的。

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

Yeah.

是的。

That's a really fascinating point.

这是一个非常有趣的点。

There's this idea that there's this proper way to speak, that there's the right way, for example.

例如，有一种想法认为有正确的说话方式，有正确的方式。

What are the appropriate-- For example, in school, you're oftentimes told, "You should say it like this, not say it like that." And every language kind of has that.

什么是合适的——例如，在学校，你经常被告知，“你应该这样说，而不是那样说。”每种语言都有这一点。

It turns out that that's really unnatural.

事实证明，这实在是太不自然了。

Languages, and speech in particular, change over time.

语言，尤其是言语，会随着时间而变化。

It evolves And it can happen very quickly.

它会不断发展并且发生得非常快。

The things that we call dialects, for example, are just different ways of speaking, and someone can just be in one environment and change from one dialect to another.

例如，我们所说的方言只是不同的说话方式，某人可以在一种环境中从一种方言变为另一种方言。

Or in some people, it kind of is really fixed.

或者对某些人来说，它确实是固定的。

And there's this idea that in school that we're told that there's this right way, but in reality, that's not true.

有这样一种想法，在学校里我们被告知有这种正确的方法，但实际上，事实并非如此。

Language change and speech change is completely normal and happens all the time, and it can be really dramatic.

语言的变化和言语的变化是完全正常的，并且一直在发生，而且可能非常戏剧性。

Certain cultures and communities, if they are isolated, they can develop a whole new language, a whole new set of words, for example, and new ways and dialects that are independent from people to the point where it's unintelligible even to others.

某些文化和社区，如果它们是孤立的，它们可以发展出一种全新的语言，例如一套全新的单词，以及独立于人们的新方式和方言，甚至到了其他人都无法理解的地步。

And so, the basic idea is that sound change is part of the way it works, and the brain is very sensitive to those kind of changes.

因此，基本思想是声音变化是其工作方式的一部分，而大脑对这些变化非常敏感。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Speaking of learning new languages, I'm assuming it's possible to learn new languages throughout the lifespan, correct?

说到学习新语言，我假设在一生中学习新语言是可能的，对吗？

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I've also heard these kind of fantastical stories of somebody has a stroke and then suddenly, spontaneously can speak French fluently, whereas prior to the stroke, they could not.

我也听过这样的奇幻故事：某人中风了，然后突然自发地可以流利地说法语，而在中风之前，他们却不能。

Is there any merit to those stories whatsoever?

这些故事有什么价值吗？

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

No.

不。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I find it very hard to believe that there was a complete map representation of a language in somebody's brain that they were completely unaware of, and then because of damage to a brain area, that capacity to speak that language was somehow unveiled.

我发现很难相信某人的大脑中存在一种他们完全不知道的语言的完整地图表示，然后由于大脑区域受损，说该语言的能力以某种方式被揭示出来。

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It just seems too wild, and I don't want to say good to be true because nobody wants a stroke, but it just seems outrageously implausible.

这看起来太疯狂了，我不想说好得令人难以置信，因为没有人想要中风，但这似乎令人难以置信。

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

Well, there are aspects of that that certainly are implausible.

嗯，有些方面确实令人难以置信。

So I don't know of any true case that I've ever seen or experienced myself or even read about where, for example, there was an injury to the brain that resulted in loss of, well, essentially a gain of function, meaning just all of a sudden start speaking another language.

所以我不知道我自己见过或经历过什么真实的案例，甚至没有读过任何关于大脑受伤导致功能丧失的真实案例，也就是说突然开始说另一种语言。

So, for example, if you had a stroke and you never spoke French, and then you had it, and then all of a sudden you're speaking.

举个例子，如果你中风了，而你从来不说法语，然后你中风了，然后突然你就开始说话了。

That I've never heard of, never seen.

我从来没有听说过，也没有见过。

However, there is a condition that is well acknowledged, and I have seen one case of this called a foreign accent syndrome.

然而，有一种情况是众所周知的，我见过一个这样的案例，称为外国口音综合症。

It's peculiar because there are people who have an injury to the part of the brain where it sounds like they're starting to speak this other language.

这很奇怪，因为有些人的大脑部分受伤，听起来他们开始说另一种语言。

But they're not actually speaking the language.

但他们实际上并没有说这种语言。

It just sounds like it.

听起来就是这样。

And this goes back to what we were talking about earlier, about these areas that are really important for speech control of the vocal tract, this area in the precentral gyrus.

这又回到了我们之前讨论的内容，关于这些对于声道言语控制非常重要的区域，即中央前回的区域。

People have documented where patients have had strokes there, and after that, it sounds like they're speaking Spanish as opposed to English, or it sounds like they have the intonational properties of French or Russian as compared to their original native language.

人们已经记录了那里的患者中风的情况，之后，听起来他们说的是西班牙语而不是英语，或者听起来他们的语调特性与他们原来的母语相比是法语或俄语。

They're not learning all the rest of it, like the meaning and the grammar, et cetera, but they're adopting some of the phonology, and part of that is just because it's not working the way it normally does.

他们没有学习其余的所有内容，例如含义和语法等，但他们正在采用一些音韵学，其中部分原因只是因为它没有按照通常的方式工作。

So there is something actually called a foreign accent syndrome that people can have after a stroke.

因此，人们在中风后可能会出现一种实际上称为外国口音综合症的疾病。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Interesting.

有趣。

I'm curious about auditory memory.

我对听觉记忆很好奇。

When I was a kid, I used to get into bed at night, and I'd close my eyes, and I would replay conversations that I had heard during the day or people's voices.

当我还是个孩子的时候，我常常在晚上上床睡觉，闭上眼睛，我会重放白天听到的对话或人们的声音。

I actually can remember calling your house when we were young kids, and because I don't speak any Chinese, but I'd have to ask for you.

事实上，我记得我们小时候给你家打电话，因为我不会说中文，但我不得不找你。

I'd say, I think it was Eddie .

我想说，我认为是艾迪。

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And then someone, whoever answered the phone would go get you, and then I'd say which I believe means thank you, right?

然后有人，无论是谁接电话，都会去接你，然后我会说，我相信这意味着谢谢，对吧？

That's the total of the Chinese that I speak, by the way.

顺便说一句，这就是我所说的中文的总数。

But I will never forget that.

但我永远不会忘记这一点。

I'll just never forget it.

我永远不会忘记它。

I hope.

我希望。

I suppose if I have a stroke or something of that sort, at some point I'll forget it, and I won't know that I've forgotten it.

我想如果我中风或类似的事情，在某个时候我会忘记它，而且我不会知道我已经忘记了它。

But in all seriousness, I remember that to this day.

但说实话，我至今还记得那件事。

I couldn't spell that out.

我无法拼写出来。

I wouldn't know how.

我不知道怎么办。

Certainly not in Chinese, but even a transliteration I couldn't do using English letters.

当然不是中文，但即使是音译我也无法使用英文字母。

Where are memories of sounds stored?

声音记忆存储在哪里？

Because within our days and across our lives, we have an infinite number of auditory experiences, just like we have an infinite number of visual experiences.

因为在我们的日子和一生中，我们有无数的听觉体验，就像我们有无数的视觉体验一样。

Where are they stored, and what is the structure of their storage?

它们存储在哪里，存储结构是什么？

What am I calling upon, besides, of course, the motor commands that are required to say what I just said in Chinese, which I won't repeat again because I somehow managed to get it right the first time, or at least not terribly wrong, then I don't want to botch it the second time.

当然，除了用中文说出我刚才所说的话所需的运动命令之外，我还呼吁什么，我不会再重复了，因为我第一次就成功地做到了，或者至少不是严重错误，然后我不想第二次搞砸了。

Where is that stored, and how does that work?

它存储在哪里，它是如何工作的？

And more importantly, as I speak my native language, English, am I pulling from a memory bank?

更重要的是，当我说我的母语英语时，我是否从记忆库中提取信息？

Because it doesn't feel like it.

因为感觉不太像。

I'm just telling you what I want to say.

我只是告诉你我想说的话。

I'm doing my best to communicate clearly and succinctly.

我正在尽力清晰、简洁地进行沟通。

Usually not so good at the succinct part.

通常不太擅长简洁部分。

But where is the bank of information?

但信息银行在哪里呢？

On my keyboard, on my computer, I have the letters, and I have certain elements of punctuation in the space.

在我的键盘上，在我的电脑上，我有字母，并且在空格中有某些标点符号。

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

What am I pulling from?

我从中汲取什么？

Am I pulling from those plosives?

我是不是从那些爆破音中拉出来了？

But if so, how can I do it so quickly?

但如果是这样，我怎样才能这么快做到呢？

Even for people that speak slowly, it appears more or less fluid.

即使对于说话速度很慢的人来说，也或多或少显得流畅。

This, to me, is overwhelmingly impressive that the brain can do that.

对我来说，大脑能够做到这一点真是令人印象深刻。

How does it do that?

它是如何做到的？

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

Well, first of all, I am impressed that 35 years later

嗯，首先，让我印象深刻的是 35 年后

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Well, I had to get a hold of you.

好吧，我必须抓住你。

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

Yeah.

是的。

So I am impressed 35 years later that you can still remember that.

35年后你仍然记得那件事，这让我印象深刻。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But only that.

但仅此而已。

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

That's fine.

没关系。

But I'm still very impressed.

但我仍然印象深刻。

But it clearly was something important to you.

但这显然对你来说很重要。

And so the short answer is that memory is very distributed.

所以简短的回答是内存是非常分散的。

So it's almost like the question that you asked me is ill-posed because you asked me where.

所以你问我的问题几乎是不恰当的，因为你问我在哪里。

Well, it's not one specific area.

嗯，这不是一个特定区域。

It's actually really distributed.

它实际上是真正分布式的。

It's not just one particular area.

这不仅仅是某一特定领域。

In fact, I'm fairly certain that if we were to injure that part of the brain called the Wernicke's area, you may still even have memories of that.

事实上，我相当确定，如果我们伤害了大脑中被称为韦尼克区的部分，你甚至可能仍然对此有记忆。

People can have injuries of Broca's area or certainly the precentral gyrus and be able to sing "Happy Birthday," for example, when it's embedded in melody or highly rehearsed things like counting, despite not being able to speak, which is incredible, right?

人们可以在布罗卡区或中央前回受伤的情况下唱“生日快乐”，例如，当它嵌入旋律或高度排练的事情（例如计数）时，尽管无法说话，这令人难以置信，对吧？

It's like you can see a patient, for example, who can't really put together a sentence.

例如，就像你看到一个病人，他无法真正组织一个句子。

You ask them, "How are you feeling today?" They can't even utter a word, but then you ask them to count sometimes, and they'll get up to any number, really.

你问他们：“你今天感觉怎么样？”他们甚至不能说一个字，但有时你让他们数数，他们真的会数到任何数字。

And so there are some things that are really built into our motor memory, and it's distributed.

因此，有些东西确实内置于我们的运动记忆中，并且是分布式的。

It's not one particular part of the brain.

它不是大脑的某一特定部分。

It's actually multiple areas where that memory is distributed.

实际上，内存分布在多个区域。

And thank God that's the way it is, because it's very rare in the kind of surgeries that I do, where you go and you remove a piece of the brain, that someone forgets these kind of long-term memories or these long-term motor skills that they have.

感谢上帝，事情就是这样，因为在我所做的那种手术中，你去切除大脑的一块，很少有人忘记他们拥有的这些长期记忆或这些长期运动技能。

That's very, very rare.

这是非常非常罕见的。

It's the number one question a patient will ask me, like, "Am I going to be the same?

这是病人问我的第一个问题，比如，“我还会像以前一样吗？

Am I going to remember my wife," or, "Am I going to remember these thoughts of my birthday when I was 10 years old?" And I've never really seen that kind of severe amnesia, unless it's a very, very severe injury that involves almost the entire brain.

我会记得我的妻子吗？”或者，“我会记得我10岁时生日时的这些想法吗？”我从来没有真正见过那种严重的失忆症，除非这是一种非常非常严重的损伤，几乎涉及到整个大脑。

And thank God.

感谢上帝。

So a lot of that information is really distributed across the entire brain.

所以很多信息实际上分布在整个大脑中。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Speaking of storage of and ability to speak, you are doing some amazing work and have achieved some pretty incredible, well-deserved recognition for your work in bringing language out of paralyzed people.

说到存储能力和说话能力，您正在做一些令人惊叹的工作，并且在使瘫痪者恢复语言方面取得了一些令人难以置信的、当之无愧的认可。

Essentially allowing people who are locked into a paralyzed state or otherwise unable to articulate speech using brain machine interface, essentially translating the neural activity of areas of the brain that would produce speech into hardware, wires, and things of that sort, artificial, non-biological tools in order to allow paralyzed people to communicate.

本质上是让那些陷入瘫痪状态或无法用脑机接口表达言语的人，本质上是将大脑中产生言语的区域的神经活动转化为硬件、电线和诸如此类的人工非生物工具，以便让瘫痪的人能够进行交流。

We will provide a link to some of the popular press coverage of that work in the original papers.

我们将在原始论文中提供该作品的一些热门新闻报道的链接。

But if you would be so kind as to tell us what those experiments look like, who these people are who are locked in and that you allow to communicate.

但如果你能好心地告诉我们这些实验是什么样的，这些被锁定的人是谁，以及你允许他们进行交流。

And then especially interesting to me are some of the directions that you're taking this now, which is beyond just people being able to think about what they want to say and words coming out on a screen or through a microphone, but actually making the interactions between these people in the real world more elaborate and more real.

对我来说特别有趣的是你现在采取的一些方向，这不仅仅是人们能够思考他们想说的话以及屏幕或麦克风上发出的话语，而是实际上使现实世界中这些人之间的互动更加复杂和真实。

If that seems mysterious to people, I'm going to let Eddie tell you what they're doing with this rather than put any more detail on it.

如果这对人们来说似乎很神秘，我会让埃迪告诉你他们正在做什么，而不是提供更多细节。

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

Oh, okay.

哦，好吧。

Well, thanks for asking about this.

嗯，谢谢你问这个问题。

This has really been some of the exciting recent work from the lab.

这确实是实验室最近令人兴奋的一些工作。

So for the last decade, we've really been focusing on the basic science, meaning trying to understand how the brain extracts and produces speech sounds and words.

因此，在过去的十年中，我们一直专注于基础科学，这意味着试图了解大脑如何提取和产生语音和单词。

We've done a lot of work trying to figure out how these parts of the brain control these individual elements that give rise to all words and meanings.

我们做了很多工作，试图弄清楚大脑的这些部分如何控制产生所有单词和含义的各个元素。

And so it was about six years ago where we realized we actually have a pretty good idea of how this code works.

大约六年前，我们意识到我们实际上非常了解这段代码的工作原理。

We had identified all of these different elements that we could decode in epilepsy patients, for example, when they had electrodes on the brain as part of their surgeries.

我们已经确定了可以在癫痫患者身上解码的所有这些不同元素，例如，当他们在手术中在大脑上植入电极时。

We could decode all of the different consonants and vowels of English.

我们可以解码英语中所有不同的辅音和元音。

That was about six years ago.

那是大约六年前的事了。

So a natural question was this, which is, if we understand that electrical code, can we use that to help someone who is paralyzed and can't get those signals out of the brain to speak normally?

所以一个自然的问题是，如果我们理解了电码，我们可以用它来帮助瘫痪且无法从大脑中获取这些信号的人正常说话吗？

And that's in the setting of people who are paralyzed.

这是在瘫痪者的情况下。

So there are a series of conditions.

所以就有了一系列的条件。

They include things like brainstem stroke.

其中包括脑干中风等疾病。

The brainstem is the part of the brain that connects the cerebrum, which is the top part, does our thinking and a lot of the motor control, speech, language, everything.

脑干是大脑中连接大脑的部分，位于顶部，负责我们的思考以及许多运动控制、言语、语言等等。

And the brainstem is what connects that to the spinal cord and the nerves that go out to the face and vocal tract.

脑干将其与脊髓以及通向面部和声道的神经连接起来。

So if you have a stroke there, basically, you could be thinking all the wild, creative, intelligent thoughts you have in the mind, in the cerebrum, but you can't get them out into words, or you can't get them out to your hand to write them down.

所以，如果你中风了，基本上，你可能会在头脑中、大脑中思考所有疯狂的、创造性的、聪明的想法，但你不能把它们变成文字，或者你不能把它们写到你的手上。

So that's a very severe form of paralysis called brainstem stroke.

这是一种非常严重的瘫痪形式，称为脑干中风。

There's another kind of conditions that we call neurodegenerative, where the nerve cells die, basically, or atrophy in a condition called ALS.

还有另一种疾病，我们称之为神经退行性疾病，神经细胞基本上会死亡，或者萎缩，称为 ALS。

And that's a very severe form of paralysis.

这是一种非常严重的瘫痪形式。

In its extreme form, people essentially lose all voluntary movement.

在极端情况下，人们基本上失去了所有自愿运动。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So Stephen Hawking would be a good example of someone with ALS, Lou Gehrig's disease?

那么史蒂芬·霍金就是 ALS（肌萎缩侧索硬化症）患者的一个很好的例子吗？

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

He's an example of someone who had ALS, but not a great example of what typical course of ALS.

他是 ALS 患者的一个例子，但并不是 ALS 典型病程的一个很好的例子。

So for reasons not clear, the progression of his disease largely stabilized to the point where he could twitch, as a cheek muscle or move his eyes, let's say.

因此，由于尚不清楚的原因，他的疾病进展基本上稳定到他可以抽搐的程度，比如说脸颊肌肉或移动眼睛。

In most people, it's very rapid, and many people, they die from it, actually, within a couple of years of diagnosis.

对于大多数人来说，这种病的发病速度非常快，实际上，许多人在诊断后几年内就死于这种病。

So-

所以——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah, he lived a long time in that.

是的，他在其中生活了很长时间。

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

He lived a long time.

他活了很长一段时间。

And-

还有——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

That slanted over state in his wheelchair

坐在轮椅上倾斜的状态

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

Right.

对。

Exactly.

确切地。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

But he wasn't breathing through a tube in his throat, for example, because people with severe ALS, the muscles to their diaphragm and their lungs essentially give out as well.

但他并不是通过喉咙里的管子呼吸，因为患有严重肌萎缩侧索硬化症的人，膈肌和肺部的肌肉基本上也会衰竭。

They get weakness there, and then they can't breathe anymore.

他们那里变得虚弱，然后就无法呼吸了。

So that's another form of paralysis.

这是另一种形式的瘫痪。

And so in our field, these are kind of like the most devastating things that can happen.

因此，在我们的领域，这些有点像可能发生的最具破坏性的事情。

I'm not going to really try to compare, like, what's worse, having a brain tumor or a stroke.

我不会真正尝试比较，比如，更糟糕的是，患有脑肿瘤或中风。

It's all bad.

一切都很糟糕。

But this condition of what we call being locked in refers to this idea that you can have completely intact cognition and awareness, but have no way to express that, no voluntary movement, no ability to speak.

但我们所说的被锁住的这种状态，是指你可以有完整完整的认知和意识，但没有办法表达出来，没有随意的动作，没有说话的能力。

And that is devastating because, psychologically and socially, you're completely isolated.

这是毁灭性的，因为无论在心理上还是在社交上，你都完全被孤立了。

That's what we call locked-in syndrome.

这就是我们所说的锁定综合症。

And it's devastating.

这是毁灭性的。

I've seen that throughout my career, and it's really heartbreaking because you know that the person is there, but you can't see, and they can't communicate.

我在整个职业生涯中都看到过这种情况，这真的很令人心碎，因为你知道这个人就在那里，但你看不到，他们也无法沟通。

So we've been studying this patterning of electrical activity for consonants and vowels.

所以我们一直在研究辅音和元音的电活动模式。

And essentially, once we figured out a lot of these codes for the individual phonetic elements, we took a little bit of a detour, or at least part of the lab started to focus on this very specific question.

从本质上讲，一旦我们弄清楚了各个语音元素的大量代码，我们就走了一点弯路，或者至少实验室的一部分开始关注这个非常具体的问题。

For people who have these kind of paralysis, could we intercept those signals from the brain, the cerebral cortex, as someone is trying to say those words, and then can we intercept them and then have them taken out of the brain through wires to a computer that are going to interpret those signals and translate them into words?

对于患有这种瘫痪的人来说，当有人试图说出这些单词时，我们是否可以拦截来自大脑、大脑皮层的信号，然后我们可以拦截它们，然后通过电线将它们从大脑中取出到计算机，计算机将解释这些信号并将其翻译成单词？

So about three years ago, we started a clinical trial.

大约三年前，我们开始了一项临床试验。

It's called the BRAVO trial.

这就是所谓的 BRAVO 审判。

It's still underway.

目前仍在进行中。

And the first participant in the BRAVO trial was a man who had been paralyzed for 15 years.

BRAVO 试验的第一位参与者是一名瘫痪 15 年的男子。

When he was about 20 years old, he came to the United States, was actually working in Sonoma area, and he was in a car accident, and he actually walked out of the hospital the day after that car accident.

当他20岁左右的时候，他来到美国，实际上是在索诺玛地区工作，他遭遇了一场车祸，而他实际上在车祸发生后的第二天就走出了医院。

But the next day, had a complication related to it where he had a very large stroke in the brain stem, and that turned out to be devastating.

但第二天，他出现了与此相关的并发症，脑干发生了严重中风，结果是毁灭性的。

He didn't wake up from that stroke for about a week.

他大约一周没有从中风中醒来。

He was in a coma for about a week, and when he woke up from that coma, he realized that he couldn't speak or move his arms or legs.

他昏迷了大约一周，当他从昏迷中醒来时，他意识到自己无法说话，也无法移动手臂或腿。

And as he told me or communicated to us, that was absolutely devastating.

正如他告诉我或与我们交流的那样，这绝对是毁灭性的。

He wanted really to die at that time.

那个时候他真的很想死。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Could he blink his eyes or move his mouth in any way?

他可以眨眼睛或以任何方式动动嘴吗？

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

He could blink his eyes.

他可以眨眼睛。

He had some limited mouth movements, but couldn't produce any intelligible speech.

他的嘴部动作有限，但无法发出任何可理解的言语。

It was completely slurred and incomprehensible.

完全是含糊不清、无法理解的。

And he survived this injury.

他在这次受伤中幸存下来。

A lot of people who have that kind of stroke just don't survive.

很多患有这种中风的人都无法生存。

But he survived, and I also realized that he's just an incredible person, like a force of nature in terms of his optimism, in terms of his ability to make friends despite his condition.

但他活了下来，我也意识到他是一个令人难以置信的人，就他的乐观主义而言，就他在尽管身体状况不佳的情况下结交朋友的能力而言，就像一股自然的力量。

The way he actually communicates, because he has a little bit of residual neck movements, is that he improvised and had his friends basically put a stick attached to his baseball cap.

他实际交流的方式，因为他有一点残留的颈部运动，是他即兴创作的，让他的朋友基本上在他的棒球帽上绑了一根棍子。

And because he could move his neck, he would essentially type out letters on a keyboard screen to get out words.

因为他可以移动脖子，所以他基本上可以在键盘屏幕上输入字母来输出单词。

In fact, this is how he communicated, was through a device that he would essentially peck out letters one by one by moving his neck to control this stick attached to his baseball cap.

事实上，这就是他的交流方式，通过一种装置，他通过移动脖子来控制附在棒球帽上的棍子，将字母逐个啄出。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

How many years did he use that method of communication until-

他用这种通讯方式多少年了，直到——

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

For about 15 years.

大约15年了。

He hadn't really spoken for about 15 years.

他大约有15年没有真正说过话了。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Oh, goodness.

哦，天哪。

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

Yeah.

是的。

So, it was a devastating injury, but there's something to be said about the human spirit, and if there's anyone who embodies it, it is Pancho, that's his nickname, the first participant in our trial.

所以，这是一次毁灭性的伤害，但关于人类精神还是有话可说的，如果说有谁体现了这种精神的话，那就是潘乔，这是他的绰号，也是我们试验的第一个参与者。

He has that human spirit.

他有那种人文精神。

He persevered, and in fact could thrive in his community, basically, and friends, be able to communicate in this very slow and inefficient way.

他坚持了下来，实际上基本上可以在他的社区中蓬勃发展，而朋友们也能够以这种非常缓慢且低效的方式进行交流。

Maybe part of that spirit is why he volunteered to be the first person in this trial.

也许这种精神的一部分就是他自愿成为这次审判的第一人的原因。

It was a clinical trial, an experiment.

这是一项临床试验，一项实验。

It was a study.

这是一项研究。

This is not an approved therapy by any means.

无论如何，这都不是一种被批准的疗法。

This was really something that had not been done before and we had a lot of ideas about it, but we didn't know.

这确实是以前没有做过的事情，我们对此有很多想法，但我们不知道。

We had proven a lot of this could be true in some people who are normally speaking.

我们已经证明，对于一些正常说话的人来说，这可能是真的。

But to actually put into someone who's paralyzed, number one, where we don't know the code is the same, and number two is someone who's not been speaking for 15 years, whether those signals are actually still there or not.

但实际上，对于一个瘫痪的人来说，第一，我们不知道代码是相同的，第二，是一个已经 15 年没有说话的人，无论这些信号实际上是否仍然存在。

So it was part of a clinical trial.

所以这是临床试验的一部分。

It was something that our hospital and also the FDA had to approve and looked at very carefully.

这是我们医院和 FDA 必须批准并仔细研究的事情。

But given a lot of the work that we had done, there was some basis for why this might work.

但考虑到我们所做的大量工作，我们有一些基础可以解释为什么这可能有效。

And so about two and a half years ago, we did a surgery where we implanted electrodes onto the parts of the brain that we've been talking about, these areas that control the vocal tract, the areas that control the larynx, the areas that control the lips and tongue and jaw movements when we normally speak.

大约两年半前，我们做了一次手术，将电极植入到我们一直在谈论的大脑部分，这些区域控制着声道，控制着喉部，控制着我们正常说话时嘴唇、舌头和下巴运动的区域。

These are areas that presumably may be active, that was our hope, in his brain, but he just couldn't get those out to control his mouth in a normal way.

我们希望他的大脑中这些区域可能是活跃的，但他就是无法以正常方式让这些区域控制他的嘴。

And he underwent a surgery, a brain surgery.

他接受了手术，脑部手术。

We put an electrode array and we connected it to a port that was screwed to his skull.

我们放置了一个电极阵列，并将其连接到一个用螺丝固定在他头骨上的端口。

And the port actually goes through his scalp, and he's lived with this now for the last three years.

端口实际上穿过了他的头皮，过去三年来他一直忍受着这种情况。

It is a risk of infection.

这是有感染风险的。

These ports eventually have to become wireless in the future.

这些端口最终必须在未来实现无线化。

But we figured out a way to keep that port there, where we can essentially connect him to a computer through that port.

但我们找到了一种方法来保留该端口，这样我们基本上可以通过该端口将他连接到计算机。

So he has an electrode array that's implanted over the part of his brain that's important for speech.

因此，他在大脑中对言语很重要的部分植入了一个电极阵列。

It's connected to a port.

它连接到一个端口。

And then we connect a wire to that port that translates those, what we call analog brainwaves, and converts them into digital signals.

然后我们将一根电线连接到该端口，将这些信号（我们称之为模拟脑电波）转换为数字信号。

And then a computer takes those digital signals from those individual sites from the speech cortex and translates those into words.

然后计算机从语音皮层的各个站点获取这些数字信号，并将其翻译成单词。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Can you describe for us the first time that Pancho spoke through this engineered device?

您能为我们描述一下潘乔第一次通过这个工程设备说话的情况吗？

What was that experience like for you?

那次经历对你来说是什么样的？

And at least from what he conveyed to you, what was that experience like for him?

至少从他向你传达的信息来看，他的经历是什么样的？

This is somebody who was essentially locked in except for this rather crude pecking device.

除了这个相当简陋的啄食装置之外，这个人本质上是被锁在里面的。

Although I'm thoroughly impressed by how adaptive or adaptable Pancho was and his friends engineering that device for him is really nothing short of clever.

尽管潘乔的适应性或适应性给我留下了深刻的印象，但他的朋友为他设计的这个装置确实非常聪明。

And, because otherwise he would be truly locked in.

而且，因为否则他就会真正被锁在里面。

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right.

对。

But what was that moment like?

但那一刻是什么样的呢？

I can only imagine.

我只能想象。

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

That moment was incredible.

那一刻真是难以置信。

It was truly incredible, to be able to see him try to get out a word that was, for all practical purposes, unintelligible, but to be able to take the brain activity and to translate it into text on a screen.

能够看到他试图说出一个实际上难以理解的单词，但能够捕捉大脑活动并将其翻译成屏幕上的文本，这确实令人难以置信。

And that's what we did.

这就是我们所做的。

We took those brainwaves, we put them through machine learning or artificial intelligence algorithm that can pick up these very, very subtle patterns, you can't actually see them with your eye in the brain activity, and translate those into words.

我们获取了这些脑电波，将它们放入机器学习或人工智能算法中，这些算法可以拾取这些非常非常微妙的模式，你实际上无法用眼睛在大脑活动中看到它们，并将它们翻译成文字。

And I remember seeing this happening for the first time.

我记得第一次看到这种情况发生。

It doesn't happen immediately.

它不会立即发生。

This is something that took weeks to train the algorithm to interpret it correctly.

这需要花费数周的时间来训练算法以正确解释它。

But what was incredible about it was to see how he reacted.

但令人难以置信的是看到他的反应。

And he would be prompted to say a given word, like "outside," for example, and then he would think about it, try to say it, and finally those words would appear on the screen.

系统会提示他说出一个给定的单词，例如“外面”，然后他会思考它，尝试说出来，最后这些单词就会出现在屏幕上。

And what was really amazing about it was you could really tell that he got a kick out of it because he would start to giggle.

真正令人惊奇的是，你真的可以看出他很高兴，因为他会开始咯咯笑。

His body would shake in a way, and his head would shake in a way that he would start to giggle, and that was cool to see.

他的身体会晃动，他的头会晃动，他会开始咯咯地笑，这看起来很酷。

But then I also realized that when he was giggling, it kind of screwed up the next words' decoding.

但后来我也意识到，当他咯咯地笑时，它有点搞砸了接下来的单词的解码。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Is that a bug you've since fixed?

这是一个你已经修复的错误吗？

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

No, we haven't fixed that.

不，我们还没有解决这个问题。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Interesting.

有趣。

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

We haven't fixed that, so it's easier just to tell him to stop giggling.

我们还没有解决这个问题，所以告诉他别咯咯笑会更容易。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So what was the first word that he said?

那么他说的第一句话是什么？

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

Well, I think one of the first sentences that he put together was, "Can you get my family outside?" And-

嗯，我想他说的第一句话是：“你能带我的家人出去吗？”还有——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Meaning get them out of the room?

意思是让他们离开房间？

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

No, no.

不，不。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

All these years, he wanted to get away from his family?

这些年，他就想逃离家人吗？

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

No, I think what he meant was can you get them-

不，我想他的意思是你能得到它们吗——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Bring them in

把他们带进来

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

...

...

bring them in.

把他们带进来。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

And so the way this worked was we trained this computer to recognize 50 words.

因此，我们的工作方式是训练这台计算机识别 50 个单词。

We started with a very small vocabulary, that's expanding as we speak.

我们一开始的词汇量很小，随着我们说话，词汇量不断扩大。

I think that this is just a matter of time before these vocabularies become much, much larger.

我认为这些词汇量变得越来越大只是时间问题。

But we started with a 50 set of words.

但我们从 50 组单词开始。

We created essentially all the possible sentences that you could generate from those 50 words.

我们基本上创建了您可以从这 50 个单词生成的所有可能的句子。

Why that was important was you can use all those possible sentences to create a computational model, a computer model, of all the different word combinations to give different sentences, given those 50 words, and then you can essentially do what we call autocorrect.

为什么这很重要，因为你可以使用所有这些可能的句子来创建一个计算模型，一个计算机模型，用所有不同的单词组合来给出不同的句子，给定这 50 个单词，然后你基本上可以做我们所说的自动更正。

It's the same kind of thing that we do when you're texting, for example, you get the wrong letter in there, but your phone actually knows, because of its context, what to correct it.

这与我们在发短信时所做的事情是一样的，例如，您收到了错误的字母，但您的手机实际上根据其上下文知道如何纠正它。

So because the decoding is not 100% correct all the time, in fact, it's far from that, it's really helpful to have these other features like autocorrect, the stuff that we use routinely now with texting that makes it correct and then updates it.

因此，因为解码并不是始终 100% 正确，事实上，远非如此，拥有自动更正等其他功能确实很有帮助，我们现在在短信中经常使用这些功能，使其正确，然后更新它。

So it's a combination of a lot of things.

所以这是很多事情的结合。

It's the AI that is translating those brain activity patterns, but it's also things that we've learned from speech and speech technologies that you put all together and then all of a sudden it starts to work.

人工智能正在翻译这些大脑活动模式，但它也是我们从语音和语音技术中学到的东西，你把它们放在一起，然后突然开始工作。

And so, we were really excited because that was the first time that someone was paralyzed and could create words and sentences that was just decoded from the brain activity.

所以，我们真的很兴奋，因为这是第一次有人瘫痪并且可以创造出刚刚从大脑活动解码的单词和句子。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Incredible.

难以置信。

And I know you're very humble, but I'm going to embarrass you by saying I always knew you were destined for great things since the early age of nine when we first became friends.

我知道你很谦虚，但我会让你感到尴尬的是，从九岁我们第一次成为朋友开始，我就一直知道你注定会成就伟大的事情。

But when I read the news coverage of your work with Pancho and the release of this language from this locked-in patient, it literally brought tears to my eyes because it's an interesting thing as fellow neuroscientists, we explore the brain, and we try and find mechanisms, and we try and compare those to what other people find, and find truths and principles and build up from those.

但是，当我读到你与潘乔合作的新闻报道以及这位被锁住的病人释放出这种语言时，我真的热泪盈眶，因为作为神经科学家同行，这是一件有趣的事情，我们探索大脑，我们尝试找到机制，我们尝试将它们与其他人发现的进行比较，找到真理和原则，并从中建立起来。

But pretty rarely is there a case where that route of exploration leads to something of clinical significance within one's own lifetime.

但很少有这种探索途径会在一个人的一生中产生具有临床意义的东西。

That's the reality of science, and oftentimes it's a very distributed process.

这就是科学的现实，而且通常是一个非常分散的过程。

But in this case, it's been a magnificent thing to see you move along this trajectory, parsing these language and speech areas, and then to also do the clinical work in parallel.

但在这种情况下，看到你沿着这条轨迹前进，解析这些语言和语音领域，然后同时进行临床工作，这是一件了不起的事情。

Speaking of which, these days, we hear a lot about Neuralink, Elon Musk's company.

说到这里，这些天我们听到了很多关于埃隆·马斯克的公司 Neuralink 的消息。

A neurosurgeon that came up briefly through my lab, but I can't take any credit for what he knows or does, which is Matt MacDougall is the neurosurgeon at Neuralink.

马特·麦克杜格尔（Matt MacDougall）是 Neuralink 的神经外科医生，他曾在我的实验室短暂露过面，但我不能将他的知识或所做的事情归功于他。

There's some other excellent neuroscientists there and engineers there.

那里还有其他一些优秀的神经科学家和工程师。

We hear a lot about Neuralink because while brain machine interface of the sort that you do and that other laboratories do has been going on for a long time, there's been some press around Neuralink about the promise of what brain machine interface could do.

我们听到了很多关于 Neuralink 的消息，因为虽然你们和其他实验室所做的脑机接口已经持续了很长时间，但围绕 Neuralink 的一些媒体报道了脑机接口的前景。

For instance, early in our discussion, you talked about how language is constrained by these sound waves, and typically, it's a few people communicating, or one person with many people through a podcast, for instance, or a speech.

例如，在我们讨论的早期，您谈到了语言如何受到这些声波的限制，通常是几个人进行交流，或者一个人与很多人通过播客或演讲进行交流。

But the idea has been thrown out there that through the use of stimulating chips or through other brain machine devicing, that perhaps one could internalize 50 conversations in parallel.

但有人提出这样的想法：通过使用刺激芯片或其他脑机设备，也许一个人可以同时内化 50 个对话。

50x communication.

50 倍通信。

Or that the memory systems could be augmented to remember 10 times as much information or even twice as much information in a given period of time.

或者，记忆系统可以增强，在给定时间内记住 10 倍甚至两倍的信息。

My understanding of what they're doing at Neuralink, which is admittedly crude and from the outside, a few discussions with people there, is that they, too, are going to pursue clinical goals first.

我对他们在 Neuralink 所做的事情的理解是，他们也将首先追求临床目标，从外部来看，这确实是粗糙的，与那里的人进行了一些讨论。

Things like trying to generate smooth movement in a Parkinsonian patient, trying to adjust movement patterns in someone with Huntington's disease, for instance, things of that sort, before they embark on the more sci-fi-like explorations of 50xing communication or doubling memory capacity and these kinds of things.

例如，在他们开始对 50 倍通信或加倍记忆容量等更科幻的探索之前，尝试让帕金森病患者产生平稳的运动，尝试调整亨廷顿病患者的运动模式之类的事情。

Although, I don't know, they may be doing all of those things in parallel.

虽然我不知道，他们可能正在并行做所有这些事情。

What are your thoughts about super capabilities of the brain, or I don't even know what word to use, supercharging the brain, giving the brain functions for which we've never observed before in human history.

你对大脑的超能力有什么看法，或者我什至不知道该用什么词来形容，给大脑增压，赋予大脑我们在人类历史上从未观察到的功能。

We have our Einsteins and our Feynmans and our Merzenichs and it's unclear who to put in along that line side by side.

我们有爱因斯坦、费曼和梅泽尼奇，但尚不清楚该将谁并列放在一起。

There are Michael Jordans, et cetera, but we've never heard of or seen somebody who can jump 20 feet in the air, or we've heard of people who have photographic memories, but I don't know that we are aware of any human being in history who could memorize the entire Library of Congress or all the works within the Vatican within an hour.

有迈克尔·乔丹等等，但我们从未听说过或见过有人能在空中跳跃20英尺，或者我们听说过有过目不忘的人，但我不知道历史上有哪个人能在一小时内记住整个国会图书馆或梵蒂冈内的所有作品。

Anyway, you get the idea.

无论如何，你明白了。

What are your thoughts about manipulating neural circuitry to achieve superhuman or super physiological functions?

您对操纵神经回路以实现超人或超生理功能有何看法？

Are we there or should we even be thinking about that?

我们是否存在或者我们是否应该考虑这一点？

Is it possible given that neurons simply communicate through electrical activity and electrical activity can be engineered outside of the brain?

鉴于神经元只是通过电活动进行交流，并且电活动可以在大脑外部进行设计，这是否可能？

How do you think about it?

你觉得怎么样？

And here we don't even have to think about Neuralink in particular.

在这里，我们甚至不必特别考虑 Neuralink。

It's just but one example of companies and people in laboratories that are quite understandably considering all this.

这只是公司和实验室人员考虑这一切的一个例子，这是可以理解的。

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

Well, it's a really interesting time right now.

嗯，现在真是一个有趣的时刻。

The science has been going on for decades.

这门科学已经持续了几十年。

The work that we've done in this field that you call brain machine interface, it's been going on for a while, and a lot of the early work was just trying to restore things like arm movement or having people or monkeys control a computer cursor, for example, on the screen.

我们在这个被称为脑机接口的领域所做的工作已经进行了一段时间，很多早期的工作只是试图恢复诸如手臂运动或让人或猴子控制计算机光标（例如在屏幕上）之类的东西。

That's been going on for decades.

这种情况已经持续了几十年。

What's been really new is that industry is now involved, and some of this is now becoming commercialized, and we're starting to see us now cross over to this field where it's no longer just research, that we're talking about medical products that are designed to be surgically implanted.

真正新鲜的是，工业界现在参与进来，其中一些现在已经商业化，我们开始看到我们现在跨入这个领域，它不再只是研究，我们正在谈论旨在通过手术植入的医疗产品。

In some cases, there's people doing this kind of work non-invasively as well, that don't require surgery.

在某些情况下，有人也以非侵入性方式进行此类工作，不需要手术。

The specific question that you are asking about is an area that we call augmentation.

您所问的具体问题是我们称之为增强的领域。

So can you build a device that essentially enhances someone's ability beyond supernormal, super memory, super communication speeds beyond speech, for example?

那么，你能否制造出一种设备，从本质上增强某人的能力，超越超常、超强记忆力、超越语音的超强通信速度等？

I guess superior precision athletic abilities.

我猜想是卓越的精准运动能力。

I think that these are very serious kind of questions to be asking now because, as you mentioned, the pathway so far is really to focus on these medical applications.

我认为现在要问这些是非常严肃的问题，因为正如您所提到的，到目前为止的途径实际上是专注于这些医疗应用。

I personally don't think that we've thought enough, actually, about what these kind of scenarios are going to look like, and I don't think we've thought through all the ethical implications of what this means For augmentation in particular.

我个人认为，实际上，我们对这些场景将会是什么样子进行了足够的思考，而且我认为我们还没有充分考虑到这对于增强来说意味着什么的所有伦理含义。

There's part of this that is not new at all.

其中有一部分根本不是什么新鲜事。

Humans throughout history have been doing things to augment our function.

纵观历史，人类一直在做一些事情来增强我们的功能。

Coffee, nicotine, all kinds of things, all kinds of medications that cross over from medical to consumer.

咖啡、尼古丁、各种东西、各种从医疗到消费者的药物。

That is everywhere.

那无处不在。

So the pursuit of augmentation or performance or enhancement is really not a new thing.

因此，追求增强或性能或增强实际上并不是什么新鲜事。

The questions really, as they relate to neurotechnologies, for example, have to do with the invasive nature.

例如，这些问题实际上与神经技术有关，与侵入性有关。

For example, if these technologies require surgery, for example, to do something that is not for a medical application.

例如，如果这些技术需要手术，例如，来做一些不用于医疗应用的事情。

Again, there, that is not exactly new territory either.

再说一次，这也不完全是新领域。

People do that routinely for cosmetic kind of procedures, for physical appearance, not necessarily cognitive.

人们通常这样做是为了美容，为了外表，而不一定是为了认知。

So I do think that provided the technology continues to emerge the way that it does, that it's going to be around the corner, and it probably is not going to be in ways that are super obvious.

所以我确实认为，只要这项技术继续以现在的方式出现，它就会指日可待，而且可能不会以非常明显的方式出现。

I don't think it's going to be like, can we easily memorize every fact in the world?

我不认为我们能轻易记住世界上的每一个事实吗？

But in forms that are going to be much more incremental and maybe more subtle.

但形式将更加渐进，也许更加微妙。

In many ways, we already have that now.

在很多方面，我们现在已经做到了。

Like, for example, you don't have to have a neural interface embedded in your brain to get essentially access to all information in the world.

例如，您不必在大脑中嵌入神经接口即可基本上访问世界上的所有信息。

You just have to have your iPhone.

你只需要拥有你的 iPhone 即可。

Whether you could do it faster through a brain interface, I definitely wouldn't rule that out.

无论你是否可以通过大脑接口更快地做到这一点，我绝对不会排除这种可能性。

But think about this, that the systems that we have already to speak and to communicate have evolved over thousands and millions of years, and they're supported by neural structures that have bandwidth of millions of neurons.

但想一想，我们已经能够说话和交流的系统已经进化了数千年和数百万年，并且它们得到了具有数百万个神经元带宽的神经结构的支持。

There's no technology that exists right now that people are thinking about that are in commercial form, certainly, not even in research labs, that come anywhere close to what has been evolved for those natural purposes.

目前，人们正在考虑的技术还没有以商业形式存在，当然，即使是在研究实验室中，也没有任何技术可以接近为这些自然目的而进化的技术。

So I'm essentially saying two sides of this, which is we're already getting into this now.

所以我本质上是说这个问题的两个方面，那就是我们现在已经开始讨论这个问题了。

This is not new territory, this topic of augmentation, both physical and cognitive.

这并不是一个新领域，这个主题是身体和认知方面的增强。

We've already surpassed that.

我们已经超越了。

That's part of what humans do in general.

这是人类一般行为的一部分。

But we are entering this area of enhanced cognition, these areas that I think the technology is going to be the rate-limiting step in how far we can go, and we have not had the full conversations about, number one, is this what we actually want?

但我们正在进入这个增强认知的领域，我认为这些领域的技术将成为我们能走多远的限速步骤，而我们还没有进行完整的对话，第一，这是我们真正想要的吗？

Is this going to be good for society?

这对社会有好处吗？

Who gets access to this technology?

谁可以获得这项技术？

These are all things that are going to become real-world problems.

这些都将成为现实世界的问题。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

There's certainly a lot to consider.

当然有很多事情需要考虑。

In thinking about augmentation and another theme that I've yet to ask you about, but I'm extremely curious about, which is facial expressions.

在思考增强和另一个主题时，我还没有问过你，但我非常好奇，那就是面部表情。

Before we talk about the relationship between the musculature of the face and language and the communication of emotion, I'd love for you to, if you would, touch on a little bit of what you're doing with patients like Pancho to move beyond somebody who's locked in being able to type out words on a screen with their thoughts.

在我们讨论面部肌肉组织和语言以及情感交流之间的关系之前，如果您愿意的话，我希望您能谈谈您对像潘乔这样的患者所做的一些事情，以超越那些只能用自己的想法在屏幕上打出文字的人。

There's a rich array of information contained within the face and facial expression, and while somebody like Pancho going from having to be completely locked in to being able to peck out letters on a keyboard to being able to just think of those letters and having them spelled out, that's a tremendous set of leaps forward towards normalcy.

面部和面部表情中包含着丰富的信息，虽然像潘乔这样的人从必须完全锁定到能够在键盘上敲出字母，再到能够想到这些字母并将它们拼写出来，这是向正常状态迈进的巨大飞跃。

It's still far and away different than Pancho speaking with his mouth, which I think, knowing some people who are restricted, who are quadriplegic, a lot of what they struggle with in the real world is actually a height difference sometimes because they're seated while other people are standing.

这与潘乔用嘴说话仍然有很大不同，我认为，我知道一些受到限制的人，四肢瘫痪的人，他们在现实世界中遇到的很多困难实际上有时是身高差异，因为他们是坐着的，而其他人是站着的。

This actually, we don't often think about this, but to always have to look up to communicate with people is a very different interface in the world.

实际上，我们并不经常考虑这一点，但总是必须抬头才能与人交流，这是世界上一个非常不同的界面。

They manage quite well, of course, but could you tell us what you're doing in terms of merging the brain machine interface with extraction of speech signals from people who are locked in, like Pancho, with facial expressions?

当然，他们管理得很好，但是您能告诉我们您在将脑机接口与提取像潘乔这样被锁定的人的语音信号与面部表情相结合方面做了什么吗？

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

Sure.

当然。

Yeah.

是的。

Well, like we described before, progress is being made.

嗯，就像我们之前描述的那样，正在取得进展。

The proof of principle is out there that you can decode speech.

原理证明已经证明你可以解码语音。

That will continue to optimize, and I'm very confident that that's going to improve very, very quickly in the coming years to the point where it's not just a small vocabulary, but a large vocabulary and at reasonable rates at a level that's going to be really helpful.

这将继续优化，我非常有信心，在未来几年里，这将非常非常快地改善，不仅仅是词汇量小，而是词汇量大，并且以合理的速度达到真正有帮助的水平。

I'm very optimistic about that.

我对此非常乐观。

I think it's the right time to start really thinking about a broader vision of what communication really is.

我认为现在是开始真正思考沟通真正含义的更广阔视野的正确时机。

So, for example, I'm here with you in person.

举例来说，我亲自和你们在一起。

We could have done this virtually, probably.

也许我们实际上可以做到这一点。

It's pretty easy to do that.

这很容易做到。

We could have recorded this really separate, but there is something about being able to actually see your expressions and to understand other forms of communication.

我们本来可以单独记录这一点，但能够真正看到你的表情并理解其他形式的交流是有好处的。

So another really important one is non-verbal.

因此，另一个非常重要的因素是非语言的。

The expressions that you're making.

你正在做的表情。

For example, if you have a quizzical look on your face, if I'm saying something not clear, that's a sign to me that I need to rephrase it or to say it in a different way or to slow down, for example.

例如，如果你脸上露出疑惑的表情，如果我说了什么不清楚的话，这对我来说就是一个信号，表明我需要重新措辞或以不同的方式说或放慢速度。

Or if there's something that really excites you, I want to continue to say more about it and talk more in detail essentially about a given thing.

或者，如果有什么事情真的让你兴奋，我想继续说更多，并更详细地讨论特定的事情。

So facial expressions actually are a really important part of the way we speak, and there's two things.

因此，面部表情实际上是我们说话方式中非常重要的一部分，有两件事。

It's not just the expressions of how you're feeling and perceiving what I'm saying, but it's also Seeing my mouth move and your eyes actually seeing my mouth move and my jaw move in a particular way, that actually allows you to hear those sounds better.

这不仅仅是你的感受和感知我所说的话的表达，而且是看到我的嘴在移动，你的眼睛实际上看到我的嘴在移动，我的下巴以特定的方式移动，这实际上可以让你更好地听到这些声音。

So having both the visual information, but also the sounds go into your brain is going to improve intelligibility, also make it more natural.

因此，让视觉信息和声音进入你的大脑将提高清晰度，也使其更加自然。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And memory for what is spoken?

以及对所说内容的记忆力？

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

Perhaps.

也许吧。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So here's a call for people not just listening to podcasts, but watching them and listening to them on YouTube, I suppose, if we were to translate this to-

所以这里呼吁人们不仅要听播客，还要在 YouTube 上观看和收听播客，我想，如果我们将其翻译为——

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

Exactly

正是如此

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

the real world.

现实世界。

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

Exactly.

正是如此。

And the reason why we're also very interested in this idea of not just having text on a screen, but essentially a fully computer-animated face, like an avatar of the person's speech movements and their facial expressions, is going to be a more complete form of expression.

我们之所以对这个想法非常感兴趣，不仅是在屏幕上显示文本，而且本质上是一个完全由计算机动画的面孔，就像人的言语动作和面部表情的化身一样，这将是一种更完整的表达形式。

Now, you can imagine right now that might just be someone looking at a computer screen interpreting these signals.

现在，您现在可以想象，可能只是有人看着计算机屏幕来解释这些信号。

But I think the way things are going in the next couple of years, a lot more of our social interactions, more than even now, are going to move into this digital virtual space.

但我认为未来几年事情的发展方式，我们更多的社交互动，甚至比现在更多，将进入这个数字虚拟空间。

And of course, most people are thinking about what that means for most consumers, but it also has really important implications for people who are disabled, right?

当然，大多数人都在思考这对大多数消费者意味着什么，但它对残疾人也有非常重要的影响，对吗？

And how are they going to participate in that?

他们将如何参与其中？

And so we're thinking really about for people like Pancho and other people who are paralyzed, what other forms of BCI can we do in order to help improve their ability to communicate?

因此，我们真正思考的是，对于像潘乔这样的人以及其他瘫痪的人，我们可以采取哪些其他形式的脑机接口来帮助提高他们的沟通能力？

So one is essentially building out more holistic avatars.

因此，人们本质上是在构建更全面的化身。

Things that can essentially decode their expressions or the movements associated with their mouth and jaw when they actually speak to improve that communication.

当他们真正说话时，这些东西可以本质上解码他们的表情或与他们的嘴和下巴相关的动作，以改善沟通。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So do you envision a time not too long from now where instead of tweeting out something in text, I'll type it out, but my avatar will just say it.

那么，你是否想象在不久的将来，我将不再以文本方式在推特上发布某些内容，而是将其打印出来，但我的头像只会说出来。

It'll be an image of my avatar saying whatever it is I happen to be tweeting at that moment.

这将是我的头像的图像，上面写着我当时碰巧发推文的内容。

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

That's what we're working on, yeah.

这就是我们正在努力的，是的。

So I don't think that that...

所以我不认为那...

That is going to happen, and it's going to happen soon, and there's a lot of progress in that.

这将会发生，而且很快就会发生，而且这方面已经取得了很多进展。

And again, we're just trying to enrich the field of communication expression to make it more normal.

再说一遍，我们只是想丰富传播表达的领域，让它变得更加常态。

And we actually think that having that kind of avatar is a way of getting feedback to people learning how to speak through a speech neuroprosthetic.

事实上，我们认为拥有这种化身是为人们通过语音神经假体学习如何说话提供反馈的一种方式。

That's the device that we call it.

这就是我们所说的设备。

It's a speech neuroprosthetic.

这是一个言语神经假体。

That that is going to be the way that can help people learn how to do it the quickest.

这将是帮助人们学习如何最快做到这一点的方法。

Not necessarily trying to say words and having it come on a screen, but actually have people embody, feel like it's part of themselves, or that they are directly controlling that illustration or animation.

不一定是试图说出文字并将其显示在屏幕上，而是实际上让人们体现出来，感觉它是他们自己的一部分，或者他们直接控制该插图或动画。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

This idea of an avatar speaking out what we would otherwise write is fascinating to me.

一个化身说出我们本来会写的东西的想法对我来说很着迷。

On Instagram, I post videos.

我在 Instagram 上发布视频。

I don't filter them, but I know there's a lot of discussion nowadays about people using filters to make their skin look different or the lighting look different.

我不过滤它们，但我知道现在有很多关于人们使用过滤器使他们的皮肤看起来不同或灯光看起来不同的讨论。

A lot of filtering and also the use of captions, so that essentially what you end up with is somewhere between an actual raw video of what was spoken and an avatar version of it.

大量的过滤以及字幕的使用，所以基本上你最终得到的内容介于所讲内容的实际原始视频和它的化身版本之间。

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

If the mismatch between what's spoken and what's in the caption is too dramatic, then it doesn't quite work.

如果所说的内容和标题中的内容之间的不匹配太严重，那么它就不太有效。

But I watch these carefully when people use captions, and oftentimes there's a smoothing of what was said into the caption, so it seems much more succinct and accurate.

但当人们使用标题时，我会仔细观察这些内容，并且通常会对标题中的内容进行平滑处理，因此看起来更加简洁和准确。

Oftentimes, the reverse is also true, where the caption is inaccurate, and then it creates this kind of jarring mismatch.

通常情况下，反之亦然，即标题不准确，然后就会造成这种不和谐的不匹配。

In any case, I think this aspect in the clinical realm of using an avatar to allow people like Pancho to essentially be a face that communicates through spoken language from an avatar that looks like them is fascinating and indeed important, and I think how avatars emerge in social spaces is going to be really fascinating.

无论如何，我认为在临床领域，使用化身让像潘乔这样的人本质上成为一张面孔，通过与他们相似的化身进行口语交流是令人着迷的，而且确实很重要，而且我认为化身如何在社交空间中出现将非常令人着迷。

I get a lot of questions about stutter.

我收到很多关于口吃的问题。

I think that for people who have a stutter, it is itself anxiety-provoking.

我认为对于口吃的人来说，这本身就令人焦虑。

Is stutter related to anxiety?

口吃与焦虑有关吗？

If one has a stutter, what can they do?

如果一个人口吃，他们可以做什么？

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Does stutter reflect some underlying neurologic phenomenon that might distinguish between one kind of stutter and another?

口吃是否反映了一些潜在的神经系统现象，可以区分一种口吃和另一种口吃？

What can people with stutter do if they'd like to relieve their stutter?

口吃患者想要缓解口吃问题可以做什么？

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Great question.

很好的问题。

Stutter is a condition where the words can't come out fluently.

口吃是指言语不能流利地说出来的情况。

So you have all the ideas, you've got the language intact.

所以你有了所有的想法，你就拥有了完整的语言。

Remember, we talked about this distinction between language and speech.

请记住，我们讨论过语言和言语之间的区别。

Stuttering is a problem of speech, right?

口吃是说话的问题吧？

So the ideas, the meanings, the grammar, it's all there, and people stutter, but they can't get the words out fluently.

所以思想、意义、语法，全都在那里，人们会结巴，但他们无法流利地说出单词。

So that's a speech condition, and in particular, it's a condition that affects articulation, specifically about controlling the production of words in this really coordinated kind of movements that have to happen in the vocal tract to produce fluent speech.

这是一种言语条件，特别是一种影响发音的条件，特别是在这种真正协调的运动中控制单词的产生，这些运动必须发生在声道中才能产生流利的语音。

And stuttering is a condition where people have a predisposition to it.

口吃是人们有口吃倾向的一种情况。

So there's an aspect of stuttering, you are a stutterer or you're not a stutterer, right?

所以口吃有一个方面，你是一个口吃者，还是你不是一个口吃者，对吧？

But people who stutter don't stutter all the time either.

但口吃的人也不会一直口吃。

So you could be a stutterer who stutters at some times but not others.

因此，您可能是一个口吃者，有时会口吃，但有时却不会。

And really, the main link between stuttering and anxiety is that anxiety can provoke it and make it worse.

事实上，口吃和焦虑之间的主要联系是焦虑会引发口吃并使情况变得更糟。

That's certainly true, but it's not necessarily caused by anxiety.

这当然是事实，但这不一定是由焦虑引起的。

It can essentially trigger it or make it worse, but it's not the cause of it, per se.

它本质上可以触发它或使情况变得更糟，但它本身并不是它的原因。

So the cause of it is still really not clear, but it does have to do with these kind of brain functions that we've been talking about earlier, which is that in order to produce normal fluent speech, we're not even conscious of what is going on in our mouths, in our larynx.

所以其原因仍然不清楚，但它确实与我们之前讨论过的大脑功能有关，即为了产生正常流利的言语，我们甚至没有意识到我们的嘴里、我们的喉部正在发生什么。

We're not conscious, and if we were, we would not be able to speak because it's too complex, it's too precise.

我们没有意识，如果有的话，我们就无法说话，因为它太复杂、太精确。

It's something that we have really developed the abilities to do, and we do it naturally, right?

这是我们真正有能力去做的事情，我们自然而然地去做，对吗？

It's part of our programming and part of what we learn inherently, innate, it's just through exposure.

这是我们编程的一部分，也是我们内在学习的一部分，与生俱来，只是通过接触。

So stuttering is essentially a breakdown at certain times in that machinery being able to work in a really coordinated way.

因此，口吃本质上是机器在某些时候无法以真正协调的方式工作的故障。

You can think about the operations of these areas that are controlling the vocal tract.

你可以想想这些控制声道的区域的运作。

Let's say speech is like a symphony.

假设演讲就像一首交响乐。

In order for it to come out normally, you've got to have not just one part, the larynx, but the lips, the jaw.

为了让它正常出来，你不仅要有喉部这一部分，还要有嘴唇和下巴。

They can't be doing their own thing.

他们不能做自己的事。

They have to be very, very precisely activated and very, very precisely controlled in a way to actually create words.

它们必须被非常非常精确地激活和非常非常精确地控制，才能真正创造出单词。

And so in stuttering, there's a breakdown of that coordination.

因此，在口吃的过程中，协调性就会被破坏。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

If somebody has a stutter, is it better to address that early in life when there's still neuroplasticity that is very robust?

如果有人有口吃，那么在生命早期就解决这个问题是否更好，因为神经可塑性仍然非常强大？

And if so, what's the typical route for treatment?

如果是这样，典型的治疗途径是什么？

I have to imagine it's not brain surgery, typically.

我必须想象这通常不是脑部手术。

I'm guessing there are speech therapists that people can talk to, and they can help them work out where they're getting stuck in the relationship to anxiety.

我猜人们可以与言语治疗师交谈，他们可以帮助他们找出与焦虑的关系中陷入困境的地方。

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

Yeah, exactly.

是的，完全正确。

Part of it is about that anxiety, but a lot of it really has to do with therapy to sort of work through and think of tricks, basically, sometimes to create conditions where you can actually get the words to come out.

部分原因与焦虑有关，但很大程度上确实与治疗有关，以解决问题并想出技巧，基本上，有时是为了创造条件，使您能够真正说出话来。

Some forms of stuttering are really initiation problems.

某些形式的口吃确实是入门问题。

Just getting started itself is very hard.

刚开始本身就非常困难。

You want to start with the initial vowel or consonant, but it won't emit.

您想从初始元音或辅音开始，但它不会发出。

And so a lot of the therapy is really just focusing on how do you create the conditions for that to happen.

因此，很多治疗实际上只是关注如何为这种情况的发生创造条件。

There's another aspect to it that I find very interesting, is that the feedback, essentially, what we hear ourselves say, for example, and every time that I say a word, I'm also hearing what I'm saying, so that's what we call auditory feedback.

我觉得还有一个非常有趣的方面，那就是反馈，本质上是我们听到自己说的话，例如，每次我说一个词时，我也会听到我在说什么，所以这就是我们所说的听觉反馈。

That turns out to be very important, and sometimes when you change that, it can actually change the amount someone stutters, for better or for worse.

事实证明这一点非常重要，有时当你改变这一点时，它实际上可以改变某人口吃的程度，无论好坏。

And it's giving us a clue that the brain is not just focused on sending the commands out, but it's also possibly interacting with the part that is hearing the sounds, and there's something might be going on in that connection that breaks down when stuttering occurs.

它给我们提供了一个线索，即大脑不仅专注于发送命令，而且还可能与听到声音的部分进行交互，并且当口吃发生时，这种联系可能会发生一些变化。

So there are individuals that are stutterers, but they don't stutter all the time.

所以有些人是口吃的，但他们并不是一直口吃。

In those instances, there's something happening in those particular moments where this very, very precise coordination needs to happen in the brain in order to get the words out fluently.

在这些情况下，在特定时刻会发生一些事情，大脑中需要进行非常非常精确的协调，才能流畅地说出单词。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

We talked a little bit about caffeine and why you avoid it.

我们讨论了一些关于咖啡因以及为什么要避免它的问题。

Because your work requires such precision and calm, and frankly, to me, it seems like you're running a lot of operations and, no pun intended, in parallel when you're doing surgery, not just thinking about where to direct the instruments, but also thinking like a chess player, several steps down the line, what could happen, what if, if then type thinking.

因为你的工作需要如此精确和冷静，坦率地说，对我来说，你似乎在做很多手术，没有双关语的意思，在做手术时并行进行，不仅考虑将仪器引导到哪里，而且还像棋手一样思考，一步一步走下去，可能会发生什么，如果，如果然后输入思考。

What are some of the other practices and tools that you use to put yourself into state for optimal neurosurgery or for thinking about scientific problems for that matter?

您还使用哪些其他实践和工具来使自己处于最佳神经外科手术状态或思考相关科学问题？

We keep threatening to go running together, but I know you run, correct?

我们一直威胁要一起跑步，但我知道你会跑步，对吗？

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Do you find running to be an essential part of your state regulation?

您认为跑步是您所在州监管的重要组成部分吗？

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

Absolutely.

绝对的。

Yeah.

是的。

So for me, most exercise that I do, I really don't do for physical reasons, I do it for mental reasons.

所以对我来说，我所做的大多数锻炼并不是出于身体原因，而是出于精神原因。

I can tell, for example, if I don't go on a run or a swim just after a day or two, and it can have translation, for example, in the way I feel in the operating room or even the way I interact with other people.

例如，我可以判断，如果我在一两天后没有去跑步或游泳，并且它可以进行翻译，例如，我在手术室的感觉，甚至是我与其他人互动的方式。

So there's no question that the mind and body are deeply connected.

因此，毫无疑问，心灵和身体是紧密相连的。

And for me personally, being able to have opportunity to disconnect for a while, it turns out to be really, really important.

对我个人来说，能够有机会暂时断开连接，这真的非常非常重要。

Now, the operating room for me is another space, kind of like running or swimming, where I'm disconnected from the rest of the world.

现在，手术室对我来说是另一个空间，有点像跑步或游泳，在那里我与世界其他地方隔绝。

I don't bring my cellphone into the operating room.

我不会把手机带进手术室。

I'm disconnected from the external world for that time that I'm in the surgery, and all I am doing is just focusing.

在手术期间，我与外部世界隔绝了，我所做的只是集中注意力。

Now, that doesn't mean that I'm having complex thoughts or doing something very complicated.

现在，这并不意味着我有复杂的想法或做一些非常复杂的事情。

Sometimes it is like that, but it's not always like that.

有时是这样，但并不总是这样。

There are things that we do in surgery that are routine and rote and are from muscle memory.

我们在手术中所做的一些事情是常规的、死记硬背的，并且来自肌肉记忆。

So for example, suturing skin or doing certain kinds of dissection or drilling part of the bone, for example.

例如，缝合皮肤或进行某些类型的解剖或在骨头的一部分上钻孔。

These are all things that become very rote after a time.

这些事情在一段时间后就会变得非常死记硬背。

So for me, even being in the operating room actually can sometimes fulfill that purpose.

所以对我来说，即使是在手术室里，有时实际上也能实现这个目的。

So I really look forward to being in the operating room because that intense focus allows me to sort of disconnect from all the other things that I'm worrying about that are happening on the outside world.

所以我真的很期待进入手术室，因为这种高度的专注让我能够与外界发生的所有其他我担心的事情脱节。

We all have those kind of things that happen, and I'm certainly no exception to that.

我们都会遇到这样的事情，我当然也不例外。

But strangely, the operating room for me is a sanctuary.

但奇怪的是，手术室对我来说是一个避难所。

I love being there because we have some control over the environment.

我喜欢呆在那里，因为我们对环境有一定的控制力。

I know what is there.

我知道那里有什么。

I know the anatomy of the brain.

我知道大脑的解剖结构。

My motions are going through routines.

我的动作正在按惯例进行。

And so for me, that's not actually very different than going on a run and letting my legs move in specific ways.

所以对我来说，这实际上与跑步并让我的双腿以特定的方式移动没有什么不同。

It's just the same thing for my hands.

这对我的手来说也是一样的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Do you listen to music or audiobooks when you run, or are you divorced from technology when you run?

你跑步时会听音乐或有声读物，还是跑步时会脱离科技？

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

Well, music helps me just stay motivated and distracted from being out of breath and other things.

嗯，音乐可以帮助我保持动力，分散注意力，避免上气不接下气和其他事情。

And for me, it's a way just to catch up with the world.

对我来说，这只是赶上世界的一种方式。

So sometimes I do, but I do notice that I don't run as well, for example.

所以有时我会这样做，但我确实注意到我跑步的效果不太好，例如。

In the operating room, it's a little different.

在手术室里，情况有点不同。

Different surgeons have preferences.

不同的外科医生有偏好。

I'm more of the camp where I don't like any distraction whatsoever.

我比较喜欢集中营，不喜欢任何干扰。

I like people to be able to hear the words that I'm saying without having background noise.

我希望人们能够在没有背景噪音的情况下听到我所说的话。

I don't really think about relying on music or other things to try to put me in a state of mind.

我并没有真正想过依靠音乐或其他东西来试图让我进入一种精神状态。

I think just being there alone and just trying to treat it the way it is, it's a sacred moment where someone's life is really directly under your hands.

我认为，只是独自一人在那里，并试图按其本来的方式对待它，这是一个神圣的时刻，某人的生命实际上直接掌握在你的手中。

That enough kind of focuses me very quickly, and I like that.

这足以让我很快集中注意力，我喜欢这样。

It really detaches me from a lot of things that are preoccupying me.

它确实让我摆脱了很多让我全神贯注的事情。

And for those couple of hours that we have a surgery, we're just focused on one thing only.

在我们进行手术的那几个小时里，我们只专注于一件事。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It's fantastic.

太棒了。

Again, I think of in the range of brain explorers, the neurosurgeons, those of your profession, are to me like the astronauts of neuroscience because they're really going to the farthest reaches possible and they're testing and probing and really at the front edge of discovering from the species that we arguably care about the most, which is humans.

再说一遍，我认为在大脑探索者的范围内，神经外科医生，你们这个职业的人，对我来说就像神经科学的宇航员，因为他们真的要去尽可能远的地方，他们正在测试和探索，并且真正处于从我们可以说最关心的物种（人类）中发现的最前沿。

Eddie, I have to say, from the first time we became friends, 38 years ago?

艾迪，我不得不说，从我们第一次成为朋友开始，38年前？

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

Something like that.

类似的事情。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Something like that.

类似的事情。

I'm almost reluctant to say, so I only reveal it in part that Eddie and I became friends because both he and I shared a love of birds, and we had a club at our school of which there were only two members, Eddie and I.

我几乎不愿意说，所以我只透露了一部分，埃迪和我成为朋友是因为我和他都热爱鸟类，而且我们学校有一个俱乐部，只有两个成员，埃迪和我。

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

Small club.

小俱乐部。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Small club.

小俱乐部。

There was one honorary member, and there were certain requirements for being in this club that we won't reveal.

有一名荣誉会员，加入这个俱乐部有一些我们不会透露的要求。

We took a pact of secrecy, and we're going to obey that pact of secrecy.

我们签订了保密协议，我们将遵守该保密协议。

But to be sitting here with you today, for me is an absolute thrill.

但今天能和大家坐在一起，对我来说绝对是一种兴奋。

Not just because we've been friends for that long or that we got reacquainted through literally the halls of medicine and science, but because I really do see what you're doing as really representing that front absolute cutting edge of exploration and application.

不仅仅是因为我们已经是这么久的朋友了，或者我们是通过医学和科学的殿堂重新认识的，而是因为我确实看到你所做的事情真正代表了探索和应用的绝对前沿。

The story of Pancho is but one of your many patients that has derived tremendous benefit from your work.

潘乔的故事只是您从您的工作中获得巨大益处的众多患者之一。

And now as a chair of a department, you of course work alongside individuals who are also doing incredible work in the spinal cord, et cetera.

现在，作为一个部门的主席，您当然会与在脊髓等领域做出令人难以置信的工作的人一起工作。

So on behalf of myself and everyone listening, I just really want to thank you for joining us today to share this information.

因此，我谨代表我自己和所有听众，衷心感谢您今天加入我们分享此信息。

We will certainly have you back because there's an entire list of other questions we didn't have time to get to, but also just for the work you do.

我们一定会让您回来，因为我们没有时间回答一整套其他问题，但也只是为了您所做的工作。

It's truly spectacular.

真是太壮观了。

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

Andrew, thanks so much.

安德鲁，非常感谢。

I'm very humbled, basically, by what you just said, and I feel that it's really an extraordinary honor, actually, and privilege to be here with you and reconnect and talk about all these ideas.

基本上，我对你刚才所说的话感到非常谦卑，实际上，我觉得能和你在一起并重新建立联系并谈论所有这些想法真的是一种非凡的荣幸。

It's probably not random that we ended up in similar spots and interests, I think, when we were kids.

我想，当我们还是孩子的时候，我们有相似的地方和兴趣，这可能不是随机的。

It starts with some deep interests and kind of nerding out on topics, and it's probably not a coincidence that we have such deep interests in this work now.

它始于一些深厚的兴趣和对话题的钻研，我们现在对这项工作有如此深厚的兴趣可能并非巧合。

I just feel really lucky to be able to do what I do.

我只是觉得自己很幸运能够做我所做的事情。

It's fun every day, almost every day, be able to go to work and take care of folks and learn at the same time, and then just close the loop.

每天都很有趣，几乎每天，能够去工作、照顾别人、同时学习，然后就形成了闭环。

How do we apply the knowledge that we learn one day to someone who comes in next week?

我们如何将一天学到的知识应用到下周进来的人身上？

It's really fun.

真的很有趣。

And we don't know everything.

我们并不知道一切。

We're not even close to it.

我们距离它还很远。

But the journey to figure this out is really extraordinary.

但弄清楚这一点的旅程确实非同寻常。

Like you said, it's exploring new lands, literally in the operating room when I'm looking at the exposed cortex, trying to understand, is it safe to walk down this part of the cortical landscape or this other trail?

就像你说的，它正在探索新的土地，实际上是在手术室里，当我看着暴露的皮质时，试图理解，沿着皮质景观的这一部分或其他路径行走是否安全？

Which one is going to be the one that is going to be safe versus the other that results in paralysis and inability to talk?

哪一种是安全的，而另一种会导致瘫痪和无法说话？

Well, maybe I shouldn't call it fun, but it's very important, too, in addition to being really intellectually important for how we understand how the brain works.

好吧，也许我不应该称其为有趣，但它也非常重要，除了在智力上对于我们如何理解大脑如何工作非常重要之外。

And so, yeah, I feel just really lucky to be in that opportunity.

所以，是的，我真的很幸运能有这个机会。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And we're lucky to have you being one of the people doing it, so thank you ever so much.

我们很幸运你能成为这样做的人之一，所以非常感谢你。

Dr. Eddie Chang:

张艾迪博士：

Thanks.

谢谢。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Thank you for joining me today for my discussion with Dr. Eddie Chang.

感谢您今天加入我与 Eddie Chang 博士的讨论。

If you'd like to learn more about his research into the neuroscience of speech and language and bioengineering, his treatment of epilepsy, and other aspects and diseases and disorders of the brain, please check out the links in our show note captions.

如果您想了解更多关于他在言语和语言神经科学以及生物工程方面的研究、他对癫痫的治疗以及其他方面以及大脑疾病和紊乱的信息，请查看我们的节目注释标题中的链接。

We have links to his laboratory website, his clinical website, and other resources related to his critical research as well.

我们有他的实验室网站、临床网站以及与他的批判性研究相关的其他资源的链接。

If you're learning from and are enjoying the Huberman Lab Podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel.

如果您正在学习并喜欢 Huberman 实验室播客，请订阅我们的 YouTube 频道。

That's a terrific zero-cost way to support us.

这是支持我们的绝佳零成本方式。

In addition, please subscribe to the Huberman Lab Podcast on Spotify and Apple.

此外，请订阅 Spotify 和 Apple 上的 Huberman Lab 播客。

And on both Spotify and Apple, you also have the opportunity to leave us up to a five-star review.

在 Spotify 和 Apple 上，您还有机会给我们留下五星级的评价。

If you have questions for us or comments about the information we've covered or suggestions about future guests, please put those in the comments section on YouTube.

如果您对我们有任何疑问或对我们所报道的信息有意见或对未来嘉宾有建议，请在 YouTube 的评论部分中提出。

We do read all the comments.

我们确实阅读了所有评论。

Please also check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning of today's episode.

另请查看今天节目开头提到的赞助商。

That's the best way to support the Huberman Lab Podcast.

这是支持 Huberman 实验室播客的最佳方式。

Not so much today, but in many previous episodes of the Huberman Lab Podcast, we talk about supplements.

今天不多，但在休伯曼实验室播客的许多前几集中，我们谈论了补充剂。

While supplements aren't necessary for everybody, many people derive tremendous benefit from them for things like enhancing sleep and focus and hormone optimization.

虽然补充剂并不是每个人都需要的，但许多人从它们中获得了巨大的好处，例如增强睡眠、注意力和荷尔蒙优化。

The Huberman Lab Podcast has partnered with Momentous Supplements.

Huberman 实验室播客与 Momentous Supplements 合作。

If you'd like to see the supplements that the Huberman Lab Podcast has partnered with Momentous on, you can go to livemomentous, spelled O-U-S, so livemomentous.com/huberman, and there you'll see a number of the supplements that we talk about regularly on the podcast.

如果您想查看 Huberman 实验室播客与 Momentous 合作的补充品，您可以访问 livemomentous，拼写为 O-U-S，即 livemomentous.com/huberman，在那里您会看到我们在播客上定期讨论的一些补充品。

I should just mention that that catalog of supplements is constantly being updated.

我只想提一下，补充剂目录正在不断更新。

As mentioned at the beginning of today's episode, the Huberman Lab Podcast has now launched a premium channel.

正如今天节目开头提到的，胡伯曼实验室播客现在推出了一个付费频道。

That premium channel will feature monthly AMAs, or Ask Me Anythings, where I answer your questions in depth, as well as other premium resources.

该高级频道将提供每月 AMA（即“问我任何问题”）以及其他高级资源，我将在其中深入回答您的问题。

If you'd like to subscribe to the premium channel, you can simply go to hubermanlab.com/premium.

如果您想订阅高级频道，只需访问 hubermanlab.com/premium。

I should mention that the proceeds from the premium channel go to support the standard Huberman Lab Podcast, which will continue to be released every Monday per usual, as well as supporting various research projects done on humans to create the sorts of tools for mental health, physical health, and performance that you hear about on the Huberman Lab Podcast.

我应该提到的是，高级频道的收益将用于支持标准的胡伯曼实验室播客，该播客将继续每周一照常发布，并支持各种针对人类进行的研究项目，以创建您在胡伯曼实验室播客上听到的各种针对心理健康、身体健康和表现的工具。

Again, it's hubermanlab.com/premium to subscribe.

再次强调，可以通过 hubermanlab.com/premium 进行订阅。

It's $10 a month or $100 per year.

每月 10 美元或每年 100 美元。

If you haven't already subscribed to our zero-cost newsletter, we have what is called the Neural Network Newsletter.

如果您还没有订阅我们的零成本时事通讯，我们有所谓的神经网络时事通讯。

You can subscribe by going to hubermanlab.com, go to the menu, and click on Newsletter.

您可以通过访问 hubermanlab.com 进行订阅，进入菜单，然后单击新闻通讯。

Those newsletters include summaries of podcast episodes, lists of tools from the Huberman Lab Podcast, and if you'd like to see previous newsletters we've released, you can also just go to hubermanlab.com, click on Newsletter in the menu, and you'll see various downloadable PDFs.

这些时事通讯包括播客剧集摘要、Huberman Lab 播客中的工具列表，如果您想查看我们之前发布的时事通讯，您也可以访问 hubermanlab.com，单击菜单中的时事通讯，您将看到各种可下载的 PDF。

If you want to sign up for the newsletter, we just ask for your email.

如果您想订阅时事通讯，我们只需提供您的电子邮件即可。

We do not share your email with anybody, and again, it's completely zero cost.

我们不会与任何人分享您的电子邮件，而且这完全是零成本。

If you're not already following me on social media, it's hubermanlab on Twitter, on Facebook, and on Instagram.

如果您还没有在社交媒体上关注我，请关注 Twitter、Facebook 和 Instagram 上的 hubermanlab。

And at all three of those places, I cover topics and subject matter that are sometimes overlapping with the information covered on the Huberman Lab Podcast, but that's often distinct from information on the Huberman Lab Podcast.

在所有这三个地方，我介绍的主题和主题有时与胡伯曼实验室播客中涵盖的信息重叠，但这通常与胡伯曼实验室播客上的信息不同。

Again, it's hubermanlab on all social media channels.

再说一遍，所有社交媒体渠道上都是 hubermanlab。

Thank you once again for joining me today for the discussion about the neuroscience of speech, language, epilepsy, and much more with Dr. Eddie Chang.

再次感谢您今天与我一起与 Eddie Chang 博士讨论言语、语言、癫痫等神经科学。

And as always, thank you for your interest in science.

一如既往，感谢您对科学的兴趣。