Dr. Duncan French: How to Exercise for Strength Gains & Hormone Optimization
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.
欢迎来到休伯曼实验室播客，我们在这里讨论科学和基于科学的日常生活工具。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.
我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。
Today I have the pleasure of introducing Dr. Duncan French as my guest on the Huberman Lab podcast.
今天，我很荣幸地介绍邓肯·弗伦奇博士作为我的休伯曼实验室播客的嘉宾。
Dr. French is the Vice President of Performance at the UFC Performance Institute, and he has over 20 years of experience working with elite, professional and Olympic athletes.
French 博士是 UFC 表演学院的表演副总裁，拥有 20 多年与精英、职业和奥运会运动员合作的经验。
Prior to joining the UFC, French was the Director of Performance Sciences at the University of Notre Dame, and he has many, many quality peer-reviewed studies to his name, exploring, for instance, how the particular order of exercise, whether or not one performs endurance exercise prior to resistance training or vice versa, how that impacts performance of various movements and endurance-training protocols, as well as the impact on hormones such as testosterone, estrogen, and some of the stress hormones such as cortisol.
在加入 UFC 之前，French 是圣母大学的表现科学部主任，他以自己的名义进行了许多高质量的同行评审研究，例如探索运动的特定顺序，是否在阻力训练之前进行耐力训练，反之亦然，这如何影响各种运动的表现和耐力训练方案，以及对睾酮、雌激素等激素和皮质醇等一些压力激素的影响。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
He's also done fascinating work exploring how neurotransmitters, things like dopamine and epinephrine, also called adrenaline, can impact hormones and how hormones can impact neurotransmitter release.
他还做了一些有趣的工作，探索神经递质（如多巴胺和肾上腺素，也称为肾上腺素）如何影响激素，以及激素如何影响神经递质释放。
What's particularly unique about Dr. French's work is that he's figured out specific training protocols that can maximize, for instance, testosterone output or reduce stress hormone output in order to maximize the effects of training in the short term and in the long term.
French 博士的工作特别独特之处在于，他制定了具体的训练方案，可以最大限度地提高睾丸激素的输出或减少应激激素的输出，从而最大限度地提高短期和长期训练的效果。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So today, you're going to learn a lot of protocols, whether or not you're into resistance training or endurance training.
所以今天，无论您是否进行阻力训练或耐力训练，您都将学习很多协议。
You will learn, for instance, how to regulate the duration of your training and the type of training that you do in order to get the maximum benefit from that training over time.
例如，您将学习如何调节培训的持续时间和培训的类型，以便随着时间的推移从培训中获得最大的收益。
So whether or not you are somebody who just exercises recreationally for your health, whether or not you're an amateur or professional athlete, or whether or not you're just trying to maximize your health through the use of endurance and/or resistance training, today's discussion will have a wealth of takeaways for you.
因此，无论您是否只是为了健康而进行休闲锻炼，无论您是业余运动员还是职业运动员，或者无论您是否只是想通过耐力和/或阻力训练来最大化您的健康，今天的讨论都会为您带来丰富的收获。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There are only a handful of people working at the intersection of elite performance, mechanistic science and that can do so in a way that leads to direct immediately applicable protocols that anybody can benefit from.
只有少数人在精英绩效和机械科学的交叉点上工作，并且能够以一种直接立即适用的协议的方式做到这一点，任何人都可以从中受益。
Dr. French also provides some incredibly important insights about the direction that sport and exercise are taking in the world today and their applications towards performance and health.
弗伦奇博士还就当今世界体育和锻炼的发展方向及其在表现和健康方面的应用提供了一些极其重要的见解。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.
在开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。
It is however, part of my desire and effort to bring at zero-cost-to-consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public.
然而，我的愿望和努力的一部分是以零成本的方式向公众提供有关科学和科学相关工具的信息。
In keeping with that theme, I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast.
为了与这个主题保持一致，我要感谢今天播客的赞助商。
And now my conversation with Dr. Duncan French.
现在是我与邓肯·弗伦奇博士的对话。
Great to see you again.
很高兴再次见到你。
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
Likewise.
同样。
Thank you.
谢谢。
I don't often have many Stanford professors in the Performance Institute, so I'm really excited.
我在表演学院的斯坦福大学教授并不多，所以我真的很兴奋。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, well, this place is amazing, and you have a huge role in making it what it is.
哦，好吧，这个地方太棒了，你在让它成为现在这个样子的过程中发挥着巨大的作用。
The reason I'm so excited to talk with you is that, yeah, you're one of these rare beasts that you have been involved in human performance and athletic performance at the collegiate level.
我很高兴与您交谈的原因是，是的，您是在大学水平上参与人类表现和运动表现的稀有野兽之一。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You are obviously very involved in MMA now in the UFC Performance Institute, and you also had the fortunate experience, I like to think, of doing a PhD in ...
显然，你现在在 UFC 表演学院非常热衷于 MMA，我想你也有过在……攻读博士学位的幸运经历。
What exactly was the PhD in?
博士到底是做什么的？
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
It was exercise physiology.
这是运动生理学。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Exercise physiology.
运动生理学。
So you're familiar also with designing studies, control groups, all the sorts of things that, in my opinion anyway, are kind of lacking from the Internet, social media version of exercise science, which is, that people throw out all sorts of ideas about how people should be training, what they should be doing and eating and not eating and doing.
所以你也熟悉设计研究、对照组，以及各种各样的事情，无论如何，在我看来，互联网、社交媒体版本的运动科学缺乏这些东西，也就是说，人们抛出各种各样的想法，关于人们应该如何训练、应该做什么、应该吃什么、不应该吃什么和做什么。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And certainly science doesn't have all the answers, but I just think it's so rare to find somebody that's at the convergence of all those different fields.
当然，科学并不能给出所有的答案，但我只是认为很难找到能够融合所有这些不同领域的人。
And so I have a lot of questions for you today that I'm sure the audience are going to be really interested in.
所以今天我有很多问题要问你们，我相信观众会对这些问题非常感兴趣。
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
Well, listen, I mean, I appreciate that.
嗯，听着，我的意思是，我很欣赏这一点。
It's very humbling, and yeah, I've worked hard to get to where I am, but I've always tried to be authentic, and I think authenticity comes alongside an academic rigor and objectivity and insight and knowledge base.
这是非常令人谦卑的，是的，我努力工作才达到现在的水平，但我一直试图保持真实，我认为真实性伴随着学术严谨性、客观性、洞察力和知识基础。
At the end of the day, it's about having confidence, having expertise, and being able to deliver that expertise to, in my world, to athletes.
归根结底，这就是要有信心，有专业知识，并能够将这些专业知识传授给我的世界里的运动员。
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
And I think that's what I've always tried to do.
我想这就是我一直在努力做的事情。
I've tied to have many strings to my bow so that I can talk with many different hats on.
我在弓上绑了很多绳子，这样我就可以戴着很多不同的帽子说话。
One day I'm talking to a coach, next day I'm talking to an athlete, the next day I'm talking to a CEO, the next day I'm talking to an academic professor.
有一天我在和一位教练交谈，第二天我在和一位运动员交谈，第二天我在和一位首席执行官交谈，第二天我在和一位学术教授交谈。
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
So I think being able to wear those different hats is certainly a skill set that I've tried to build throughout my career.
因此，我认为能够担任这些不同的角色无疑是我在整个职业生涯中努力培养的一项技能。
And I like to say I've been blessed to work with, I think it was 36 different professional or Olympic sports, last time I counted.
我想说，我很幸运能够与 36 个不同的职业或奥林匹克运动项目一起工作，我上次统计过。
So yeah, it's been a wild ride.
是的，这是一次疯狂的旅程。
It's been great.
太棒了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Which of those sports was the most unusual?
其中哪一项运动最不寻常？
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
I've worked with Crown Green bowling, which I don't know, as an American guy, I don't know.
我曾在皇冠格林保龄球馆工作过，我不知道，作为一个美国人，我不知道。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I've never heard of it.
我从来没有听说过。
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
Basically, imagine a 20 foot by 20 foot square of turf with a small raise in the middle, the crown.
基本上，想象一块 20 英尺 x 20 英尺见方的草坪，中间有一个小凸起，即冠部。
So it slopes to the edges and then you throw out a white jack, a smaller ball, and then you roll out larger balls to try and get closest to the jack.
所以它会向边缘倾斜，然后你扔出一个白色的杰克，一个较小的球，然后你推出较大的球，尝试靠近杰克。
It's a very European thing, let's say.
可以说，这是一件非常欧洲的事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Interesting.
有趣。
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
But yeah, sports performance to crown green bowling.
但是，是的，运动表现为绿色保龄球加冕。
There you go.
就这样吧。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
All right.
好吧。
Wow.
哇。
And then to mix martial arts fighters and everything in between.
然后混合武术战士和介于两者之间的一切。
So along those lines, could you give us a little bit of your background.
因此，您能给我们介绍一下您的背景吗？
To start out, where are you from originally?
首先，你来自哪里？
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
Yeah, I'm from the northeast of England, so I'm from a town called Harrogate, which is in Yorkshire, which is a northern kind of area of-
是的，我来自英格兰东北部，所以我来自约克郡的一个叫哈罗盖特的小镇，这是一个北部地区-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Nice sunny weather all year long?
一年四季阳光明媚的好天气？
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
Yeah, you can imagine with the two weeks of summer that we get?
是的，你能想象我们夏天的两周吗？
But yeah, I mean, I did my undergraduate studies there in sports science.
但是，是的，我的意思是，我在那里完成了体育科学的本科学习。
I did teacher training to be a physical education teacher after that, like most people, and then worked as a high school physical education teacher.
之后，我像大多数人一样，接受了成为一名体育老师的教师培训，然后担任了一名高中体育老师。
Great experience working with kids, developing athletic qualities.
与孩子们一起工作、培养运动素质的丰富经验。
But something in the back of my mind, I wanted more, I wanted to be at the higher end of elite sports.
但在我内心深处，我想要更多，我想处于精英运动的高端。
I was a failed athlete, like many people.
和很多人一样，我是一名失败的运动员。
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
I represented my country in different sports and things, but I never made it professionally.
我代表我的国家参加了不同的运动和活动，但我从未成为职业选手。
So that little seed was sewn in as much as I then started to reach out to different areas to do a PhD, whether it was in the U.K. or also chance my arm, took a punt, see if I could get over to the States.
所以，那颗小小的种子就被埋下了，然后我开始去不同的地区攻读博士学位，无论是在英国，还是碰巧我的手臂，赌一把，看看我是否可以去美国。
All my buddies were going on gap years after they finished university, or whatever, and going to Bali and hanging out, or whatever, traveling through Thailand.
我所有的朋友在大学毕业后都会度过间隔年，或者其他什么，去巴厘岛闲逛，或者其他什么，穿越泰国。
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
And I figured, well, I've always loved the States and can I go and kill two birds with one stone and do something academic, continue my studies, but also doing a different environment and get some life experience?
我想，好吧，我一直很喜欢美国，我可以去一石二鸟，做点学术的事情，继续我的学业，同时也做一些不同的环境，获得一些生活经验吗？
And many, many rejections, as I'm sure you're kind of aware from different professors, whether it was Rodger or William Kramer-
还有很多很多拒绝，我相信你从不同的教授那里都知道，无论是罗杰还是威廉·克莱默——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So you just wrote to these folks?
所以你刚刚写信给这些人？
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
I just cold called and sent out information and said, "Yeah, so have you got any opportunities?" Push back from more, but dogged and kept asking.
我只是冷不丁地打电话发信息说：“是的，那你有机会吗？”虽然遭到更多拒绝，但仍坚持不懈地询问。
And yeah, Dr. William Kramer, who was at Ball State University in Indiana at the time, a muscle neuroendocrinologist and researcher in muscle physiology using resistance training.
是的，当时就职于印第安纳州鲍尔州立大学的威廉·克莱默博士是一位肌肉神经内分泌学家和抗阻训练肌肉生理学研究员。
He basically said, "Listen, I can guarantee your funding for the first year of your studies, but not the next three."
他基本上是说，“听着，我可以保证你第一年学习的资金，但不能保证接下来三年的资金。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sounds like a typical academic response, "I can take care of you, but not that well, necessarily." Right?
听起来像是典型的学术反应：“我可以照顾你，但不一定照顾得那么好。”正确的？
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
Yeah.
是的。
Spoke to my parents and said, "Hey, can we take a punt?" And they were great in supporting me.
我对我的父母说：“嘿，我们可以赌一下吗？”他们非常支持我。
And yeah, long story short, came out to begin my PhD at Ball State.
是的，长话短说，我在鲍尔州立大学开始了我的博士学位。
After a year, Dr. Kramer transferred to UConn, Connecticut, in Storrs, in the northeast there, and I transferred with him and, yeah, four great years with my PhD and getting my PhD with a really prolific research group that looked at neuroendocrinology, hormonal work, but using resistance training primarily as an exercise stressor as a major mechanism.
一年后，克莱默博士转到康涅狄格州东北部斯托尔斯的康涅狄格大学，我和他一起转学，是的，我度过了四年美好的博士学位，并在一个非常多产的研究小组中获得了博士学位，该研究小组研究神经内分泌学、激素工作，但主要使用阻力训练作为运动压力源作为主要机制。
And then looking at all the different physiologies off the back of resistance training.
然后观察抗阻训练后的所有不同生理机能。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You guys were enormously productive.
你们的工作效率非常高。
I found dozens of papers on how weight training impacts hormones, and your name's on all of them, and it's remarkable.
我找到了几十篇关于重量训练如何影响荷尔蒙的论文，所有这些论文上都有你的名字，这很了不起。
I have a question about this.
我对此有一个疑问。
I'll just inject a question about weight training and hormones.
我只想提出一个关于重量训练和荷尔蒙的问题。
You hear this all the time, that doing these big, heavy compound movements or resistance training increases androgens, things like testosterone, DHT, DHEA, and so forth.
你经常听到这样的话，说做这些大而重的复合运动或阻力训练会增加雄激素，比如睾酮、双氢睾酮、脱氢表雄酮等。
Does anyone know how that actually happens?
有谁知道这实际上是如何发生的？
What about move ...
搬家怎么办...
what is it about engaging motor neurons under heavy loads sends a signal to the endocrine system, "Hey, release testosterone." I've never actually been able to find that in a textbook.
重负荷下的运动神经元会向内分泌系统发送信号：“嘿，释放睾酮。”我实际上从未在教科书中找到过这一点。
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
Yeah, well ...
是的，好吧...
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And how can I do more of that?
我怎样才能做得更多？
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
As much as I know, and again, I'm digging out into the annals of Duncan French's kind of brain now.
据我所知，我现在正在深入挖掘邓肯·弗伦奇的大脑编年史。
But yeah, I mean, I think it's the stress response, right?
但是，是的，我的意思是，我认为这是压力反应，对吗？
Its mechanical stress and it's metabolic stress.
它是机械应力和代谢应力。
And the downstream regulation of testosterone release at the gonads comes from many different areas.
性腺睾酮释放的下游调节来自许多不同的领域。
My work primarily looked at catecholamines and sympathetic arousal.
我的工作主要关注儿茶酚胺和交感神经的兴奋。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So things like epinephrine, adrenaline?
那么肾上腺素、肾上腺素之类的东西吗？
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
Correct, yeah, epinephrine, adrenaline, noradrenaline.
正确，是的，肾上腺素，肾上腺素，去甲肾上腺素。
How they were signaling the cascade using the HPA axis, releasing cortisol.
他们如何使用 HPA 轴发出级联信号，释放皮质醇。
And then looking at how that also influenced the adrenal medulla to release androgens and then signaling that the gonads-
然后看看这如何影响肾上腺髓质释放雄激素，然后向性腺发出信号——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That raises an interesting question, so presumably weight training in women, people who don't have testes, also it increases testosterone?
这就提出了一个有趣的问题，那么对于没有睾丸的女性来说，举重训练是否也会增加睾丸激素？
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And is that purely through the adrenals, when women lift weights their adrenal glands release testosterone?
当女性举重时，肾上腺会释放睾酮，这纯粹是通过肾上腺吗？
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
I mean, that is the only area of testosterone release for females.
我的意思是，这是女性睾酮释放的唯一区域。
And yes, it's the same downstream cascade.
是的，这是相同的下游级联。
Obviously the extent to which it happens is significantly less in females, but there's good data out there that shows females can increase their anabolic environment, their internal anabolic milieu, using resistance training as a stressor.
显然，这种情况在女性中发生的程度要小得多，但有充分的数据表明，女性可以使用阻力训练作为压力源来增加其合成代谢环境，即内部合成代谢环境。
And then they get the consequent muscle tissue growth, whether it's tendon-ligament adaptations, the beneficial consequences of resistance training, which is driven by anabolic stimuli.
然后他们得到随之而来的肌肉组织生长，无论是肌腱韧带的适应，还是由合成代谢刺激驱动的阻力训练的有益结果。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I have two questions about that.
我对此有两个问题。
The first one is something that you mentioned, which is that the androgens, the testosterone, comes from the adrenals under resistance loads in women.
第一个是你提到的，雄激素，睾酮，来自女性抵抗负荷下的肾上腺。
Is the same true in men?
男性也是如此吗？
I mean, we hear that the testes produce testosterone when we weight train, for men that have testes, but do we know whether or not it's the adrenals or the testes in men that are increasing testosterone?
我的意思是，我们听说，对于有睾丸的男性来说，当我们举重训练时，睾丸会产生睾酮，但我们是否知道男性的肾上腺或睾丸是否会增加睾酮？
More or both, a little bit from each?
更多还是两者兼而有之，各取一点？
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
The field is divided presently, and as much as understanding the acute adrenergic response in terms of anabolic response to exercise in an acute phase, and the exposure to a stimulus that is stress driven, which might be partly from the adrenal glands, partly from the gonads, versus a longitudinal exposure to anabolic environments, which is primarily driven by obviously the gonads and to release the endocrine environment from testosterone release at the gonads.
目前，该领域存在分歧，就像理解急性期对运动的合成代谢反应方面的急性肾上腺素反应一样，以及暴露于压力驱动的刺激（可能部分来自肾上腺，部分来自性腺）与纵向暴露于合成代谢环境（显然主要由性腺驱动，并从性腺释放睾酮释放内分泌环境）之间进行比较。
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
So the field is split in terms of how exercise is promoting hypertrophy — muscle tissue growth, and whether that is very much an adrenal stimuli, or if that's significant enough in these acute responses versus the longitudinal exposure, just elevated basal levels of anabolic testosterone habitual level.
因此，这个领域在运动如何促进肥大——肌肉组织生长，以及这是否很大程度上是一种肾上腺刺激，或者是否在这些急性反应与纵向暴露中足够显着，只是提高了合成代谢睾酮习惯水平的基础水平方面存在分歧。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So it sounds like with most things, it's probably both, probably adrenals and the gonads.
所以听起来大多数东西，可能都是肾上腺和性腺。
And then you mentioned that testosterone can have enhancing effects or growth effects on tendon and ligament also.
然后你提到睾酮也可以对肌腱和韧带产生增强作用或生长作用。
You don't often hear about that, people always think testosterone, muscle, but testosterone has a lot of effects on other tissues that are important for performance, it sounds like.
你不经常听说这个，人们总是认为睾酮、肌肉，但听起来睾酮对其他对表现很重要的组织有很多影响。
What's the story there?
那里有什么故事？
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
I mean, I think the testosterone hormone is ...
我的意思是，我认为睾酮激素是......
I mean, listen, there's androgen receptors on neural tissue, on neural axons.
我的意思是，听着，神经组织、神经轴突上有雄激素受体。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Pretty much everywhere?
几乎到处都是？
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
Exactly.
正是如此。
So the binding capacity of testosterone and influence in different tissues within the body, I've touched on muscle tissue, but the ligaments, the tendons, even bone, to some extent.
因此，睾酮的结合能力以及对体内不同组织的影响，我已经触及了肌肉组织，但在某种程度上也触及了韧带、肌腱，甚至骨骼。
Testosterone has potential to influence that in terms of removing osteopenic kind of characteristics, et cetera.
睾酮有可能在消除骨质减少的特征等方面产生影响。
So yeah, it's a magic hormone, let's say, with many, many end impacts in terms of adaptation.
所以，是的，它是一种神奇的激素，可以说，在适应方面有很多很多的最终影响。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I definitely want to get back to your trajectory, but as long as we're on the interactions between androgens, testosterone and its derivatives, and different tissues, from the work that you did as a PhD student and throughout your career, could you say that there's some general principles of training that favor testosterone production in terms of ...
我绝对想回到你的轨迹，但只要我们研究雄激素、睾酮及其衍生物和不同组织之间的相互作用，从你作为博士生所做的工作和整个职业生涯来看，你能否说存在一些有利于睾酮产生的一般训练原则......
that somebody who's not an elite athlete could use?
非精英运动员可以使用的吗？
Somebody who's already adapted to weight training somewhat?
有人已经有点适应重量训练了吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They know the difference between a dumbbell and a barbell, and they know the various movements; they're not going to damage themselves.
他们知道哑铃和杠铃的区别，也知道各种动作；他们不会伤害自己。
But once they're doing that, I mean, I've heard shorter sessions are better than longer sessions, but in rep loads now, there's a lot of parameter space.
但一旦他们这样做了，我的意思是，我听说较短的会话比较长的会话更好，但在现在的代表负载中，有很多参数空间。
But if you were going to throw out some of the parameters that you think are most important to pay attention to, for the typical person who's trying to use weight training to build or maintain muscle, lose body fat, so body recomposition and/or stay strong and healthy for sports of a different kind?
但是，对于那些试图通过举重训练来增强或维持肌肉、减少体内脂肪、从而使身体重组和/或保持强壮和健康以进行不同类型运动的典型人来说，如果您打算抛弃一些您认为最需要注意的参数呢？
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
Yeah, so the work that, obviously I was exposed to back in my PhD, it was a double-edged sword.
是的，显然我在博士期间接触过的工作是一把双刃剑。
And as much as testosterone is really stimulated by an intensity factor and also a volume factor, now growth hormone is a little bit different.
尽管睾丸激素确实受到强度因素和体积因素的刺激，但现在生长激素有点不同。
That's largely driven by an intensity factor alone.
这很大程度上是由强度因素驱动的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, really?
哦，真的吗？
I always thought that growth hormone was driven by volume, which just goes to show you-
我一直认为生长激素是由体积驱动的，这只是向你展示-
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
Maybe I've got it wrong.
也许我理解错了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, no, no, no. I think you're probably right, which just goes to show you that most of what's out there on the Internet is completely ...
不，不，不，不。我认为你可能是对的，这只是向你表明互联网上的大部分内容完全是......
Not only is it wrong, it's usually backwards.
它不仅是错误的，而且通常是倒退的。
So no, trust your instinct, because I think people just make this stuff up, right?
所以不，相信你的直觉，因为我认为人们只是编造这些东西，对吗？
Because it's very hard to measure growth hormone and testosterone, and I can't imagine most of the stuff that I see out there, they're taking drips and measuring free versus bound and all this kind of stuff.
因为测量生长激素和睾酮非常困难，而且我无法想象我看到的大多数东西，他们正在滴注并测量游离与结合以及所有此类的东西。
But that's what you do in laboratories, right?
但这就是你在实验室所做的，对吧？
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
Yeah.
是的。
You look at total composition, then you look at how much of that is free circulating in the system, how much is bound and therefore biologically active bound to receptor creating adaptation.
你观察总成分，然后观察其中有多少在系统中自由循环，有多少是结合的，因此生物活性与受体结合，产生适应。
But yeah, coming back to testosterone, in terms of the training strategies, it's largely driven by both an intensity and a volume factor.
但是，是的，回到睾丸激素，就训练策略而言，它很大程度上是由强度和体积因素驱动的。
So if you look at many of the exercise interventions that we use to try and investigate and interrogate testosterone, it was usually a six by 10 protocol.
因此，如果你看一下我们用来尝试调查和询问睾酮激素的许多运动干预措施，你会发现它通常是 6 x 10 的方案。
So you're touching-
所以你正在触摸-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Six by 10, meaning?
六乘十，是什么意思？
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
Six sets of 10 repetitions, which is quite a large ...
六组，每组 10 次重复，这是相当大的......
you know, 60 repetitions is quite a large volume for a single exercise.
要知道，对于单次练习来说，60次重复是相当大的练习量了。
And that was usually pitched at about 80% of the one-repetition max intensity.
这通常是一次重复最大强度的 80% 左右。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So 80% of the one-rep max, six sets of 10 reps separated by rest of-
因此，最多 1 次重复的 80% 是六组，每组 10 次，其余的分开-
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
Two minutes.
两分钟。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Two minutes, which is actually pretty fast, at least to me.
两分钟，实际上相当快，至少对我来说。
Anytime you see these two to three minutes when you're actually watching the clock, those two-minute rest periods go by pretty fast.
每当你真正看着时钟时看到这两到三分钟，那两分钟的休息时间就过得很快。
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
By the third, fourth set, you're dying for more.
到了第三、第四盘，你会渴望更多。
And I think we formulated that kind of exercise protocol to really target the release of testosterone and try and drive up these anabolic environments to study the endocrine consequences.
我认为我们制定了这种锻炼方案，真正针对睾酮的释放，并尝试推动这些合成代谢环境以研究内分泌后果。
But I think that's the type of protocol that is most advantageous for driving anabolic environment.
但我认为这是最有利于驱动合成代谢环境的协议类型。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And that was it for the workout.
这就是锻炼的内容。
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
Yeah, I mean, we would do that in a back squat.
是的，我的意思是，我们会通过后蹲来做到这一点。
So a multijoint, challenging exercise — multimuscle, multijoint — 80% loads of your one-repetition max and then six by 10.
因此，这是一项多关节、具有挑战性的运动——多肌肉、多关节——一次重复最大负荷的 80%，然后是 6 x 10。
We did play around with your classic German volume type 10 by 10 kind of protocols, but they were just unsustainable at that 80%.
我们确实尝试过经典的德语卷类型 10 x 10 类型的协议，但它们在 80% 的情况下是不可持续的。
The key to what we also did was, we always adjusted the loads to make sure that it was 10 repetitions that were sustained.
我们所做的事情的关键是，我们总是调整负载以确保能够持续 10 次重复。
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
So if the load was too high, and an athlete or participant had to drop the weights on the six repetition, we would unload the bar and make sure they completed the 10 repetitions.
因此，如果负荷太高，运动员或参与者必须在六次重复中放下重量，我们就会卸下杠铃并确保他们完成 10 次重复。
Bringing me back to the point of, it's an intensity and a volume derivative that is going to be most advantageous for testosterone release.
让我回到这一点，强度和体积导数对于睾酮释放最有利。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's really interesting.
这真的很有趣。
And one thing that you mentioned there that is especially interesting to me, which is, you said when you go from six sets of 10 repetitions to 10 sets of 10 repetitions, it's not as beneficial and might even be counterproductive.
你在那里提到的一件事对我来说特别有趣，那就是，你说当你从 6 组 10 次重复变成 10 组 10 次重复时，它并没有那么有益，甚至可能适得其反。
But to me, the difference between six and 10 sets is only four sets.
但对我来说，6 组和 10 组之间的区别只是 4 组。
It doesn't even sound that much.
听起来甚至没有那么多。
So that sort of hints at the possibility that the thresholds for going from a workout that increases testosterone to a workout that diminishes testosterone is actually a pretty narrow margin.
因此，这暗示着从增加睾酮激素的锻炼到减少睾酮激素的锻炼的阈值实际上是相当窄的。
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
Yeah.
是的。
And I think it comes back to that intensity factor.
我认为这又回到了强度因素。
Then what we saw, that 10 by 10 protocol really sees pretty significant drop-offs in the load.
然后我们看到，10 x 10 协议确实看到了负载的显着下降。
And again, we're trying to stimulate with intensity, with mechanical strain through intensity as well as metabolic strain through volume.
再次，我们试图通过强度进行刺激，通过强度进行机械应变，通过体积进行代谢应变。
And I think that's the paradigm that you've got to look at is that the mechanical load has to come from the actual weight on the bar, and the volume is the metabolic stimulus.
我认为你必须考虑的范式是机械负荷必须来自杠铃上的实际重量，而体积是代谢刺激。
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
How much are we driving lactate, how much are we driving glycogenolysis, in terms of that type of energy system for executing a 10 by 10 protocol?
就执行 10 x 10 方案的能量系统类型而言，我们在多大程度上驱动乳酸，我们在多大程度上驱动糖原分解？
And what we often saw was just a significant reduction in the intensity capabilities of an athlete to sustain that.
我们经常看到的是运动员维持这种强度的能力显着下降。
So we shortened the volume to try and maintain the intensity.
因此我们缩短了音量以尝试保持强度。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Interesting.
有趣。
And you could imagine just taking very long rest, keeping the session ...
你可以想象只是长时间休息，保持训练......
being a big lazy bear in the training.
在训练中成为一只大懒熊。
I sometimes do this, I tell myself I'm going to work out for 45 minutes and then two hours later I'm done.
我有时会这样做，我告诉自己我要锻炼 45 分钟，然后两个小时后我就完成了。
But not because I was huffing and puffing the whole time, but because I was training really slowly.
但这并不是因为我一直在气喘吁吁，而是因为我训练得非常缓慢。
Is there any evidence that training slowly can offset some of the negative effects of doing a lot of volume?
有没有证据表明缓慢训练可以抵消大量训练带来的一些负面影响？
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
Well, it's an old adage of ...
嗯，这是一句古老的格言……
Two responses to your question.
对你的问题的两个回答。
I mean, the first one I would say, there's a difference between 10 sets of six and six sets of 10.
我的意思是，我要说的第一点是，10 组 6 组和 6 组 10 组之间是有区别的。
And I think that comes back to the volume conversation.
我认为这又回到了音量对话。
Six sets of 10 is driving up metabolic stimulus.
六组，每组 10 次，可以促进新陈代谢。
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
If you're doing 10 sets of six, you can probably take it to a higher intensity, but you're not going to get the same metabolic load.
如果您进行 10 组，每组 6 组，您可能可以提高强度，但您不会获得相同的代谢负荷。
You're not going to get the same internal metabolic environment that drives the lactate release that there will then signal further anabolic testosterone release because of the lactate in your body.
您不会获得相同的内部代谢环境来驱动乳酸释放，然后由于体内的乳酸而发出进一步合成代谢睾酮释放的信号。
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
That's a key consideration.
这是一个关键的考虑因素。
The rest is often the consideration that's overlooked out there in general population, and in many sporting environments, that the rest is as important a program in variable as the load and the intensity, the load, the volume, et cetera.
休息通常是一般人群和许多运动环境中被忽视的考虑因素，休息与负荷和强度、负荷、体积等一样重要。
And yes, if you extend the volume, if you extend the duration of your rest periods, what you're ultimately doing is influencing that metabolic stimulus, again.
是的，如果你增加运动量，如果你延长休息时间，你最终所做的就是再次影响新陈代谢刺激。
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
You're allowing the flushing of the body, the removal of waste products, lactate to be removed from the body, and then the metabolic environment is reduced.
你可以让身体冲洗，排除废物，乳酸从体内排出，然后代谢环境就会减少。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So if I understand correctly, you want to create a metabolic stress?
所以如果我理解正确的话，你想制造代谢压力？
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So the way that I've been training slow and lazy is not necessarily the best way to go.
所以我一直缓慢而懒惰的训练方式并不一定是最好的方式。
I could, in theory, do a 45 or 60 minute session where I pack in more work per unit time.
理论上，我可以进行 45 或 60 分钟的课程，在单位时间内我可以完成更多的工作。
I'm not going to be able to quote, unquote "Perform as well." I won't be able to lift as much.
我无法引用或取消引用“也执行”。我将无法举起那么多东西。
I have to unweight the bar between sets, or maybe even during sets if I have someone who could do that.
我必须在组间减轻杠铃的重量，或者甚至在组间减轻重量，如果我有人能做到这一点的话。
But it sounds like that's the way to go.
但听起来这就是要走的路。
So the old adage of, high intensity, short duration is probably the way to go.
因此，古老的格言“高强度、短持续时间”可能是正确的选择。
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
Correct.
正确。
And in layman's terms, if the same objective, the same training goal is just muscle tissue growth, and we're not talking about maximal strength or any of those type of parameters, we're just talking about growing muscle.
通俗地说，如果相同的目标、相同的训练目标只是肌肉组织生长，我们不是在谈论最大力量或任何此类参数，我们只是在谈论肌肉增长。
If there's an athlete A, and he does six sets of 10 with two minutes rest, and there's athlete B that does six sets of 10 with three minutes rest, athlete A will likely see the highest muscle hypertrophy gains because of the metabolic stimulus that they're driving with the shorter rest periods.
如果运动员 A 做 6 组，每组 10 次，休息 2 分钟，而运动员 B 做 6 组，每组 10 次，休息 3 分钟，那么运动员 A 可能会看到最高的肌肉肥大增益，因为他们在较短的休息时间下进行代谢刺激。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Interesting.
有趣。
And for all the years that I've spent exploring exercise science and trying to get this information from the Internet in various places, this is the first time it's ever been told to me clearly.
多年来，我一直在探索运动科学，并试图从不同地方的互联网上获取这些信息，这是第一次有人清楚地告诉我这些信息。
So basically I need to put my ego aside and I need to not focus so much on getting as many reps with a given weight and keep the rest restricted, about two minutes, get the work in, and then I'll derive the benefits?
所以基本上我需要把我的自我放在一边，我不需要太专注于在给定的重量下获得尽可能多的代表，并限制休息，大约两分钟，开始工作，然后我会得到好处？
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
I mean, you've absolutely nailed it, to be honest.
我的意思是，说实话，你绝对做到了。
And again, if you think about human nature and how we approach ...
再说一次，如果你考虑一下人性以及我们如何处理......
We're inherently lazy as humans, we want to take that rest.
作为人类，我们本质上是懒惰的，我们想要休息。
We want to take the time out to recover and feel refreshed, but we're trying to create a training stimulus.
我们想要抽出时间来恢复并感到精神焕发，但我们正在努力创造一种训练刺激。
We're trying to create a very specific stimulus internal to the body, and that is often driven by the metabolic environment at that moment in time.
我们试图在身体内部创造一种非常特定的刺激，这通常是由当时的代谢环境驱动的。
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
Now, if we allow the metabolic environment to change by extending the rest periods, we're not going to see as beneficial gains at the end of it.
现在，如果我们通过延长休息时间来改变代谢环境，那么最终我们不会看到任何有益的收获。
So it is very much a motivational and ego thing, rather than saying, "Okay, I'm going to push my loads as high as I can and really challenge maximal strength, do fewer repetitions, take longer periods of time." It's a completely different approach to training.
因此，这在很大程度上是一种激励和自我的事情，而不是说：“好吧，我将尽我所能地提高我的负荷，真正挑战最大力量，减少重复次数，花更长的时间。”这是一种完全不同的训练方法。
It's a different end goal.
这是一个不同的最终目标。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Interesting.
有趣。
And you mentioned lactate, so it seems still a bit controversial as to what actually triggers hypertrophy.
你提到了乳酸，所以对于真正引发肥大的因素似乎仍然存在争议。
You hear about lactate buildup or people, the common language is the muscle gets torn and then repairs, but I don't know, does the muscle actually tear?
你听说过乳酸堆积或人们，常见的语言是肌肉被撕裂然后修复，但我不知道，肌肉真的撕裂吗？
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
I mean, microtrauma.
我的意思是，微创伤。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Microtrauma.
微创伤。
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
Disruption of the mic, within the muscle tissue, for sure.
当然，肌肉组织内的麦克风会受到破坏。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Interesting.
有趣。
And we're talking now about nondrug-assisted people who, let's just say, let's define our terms here, whose testosterone levels are within the range of somewhere between 300 and 1500, or whatever, 1200.
我们现在谈论的是非药物辅助的人，我们在这里定义一下我们的术语，他们的睾酮水平在 300 到 1500 之间，或者 1200 之间。
Because it does seem that athletes who take high levels of exogenous androgens can do more work and just get protein synthesis from just doing work.
因为服用高水平外源性雄激素的运动员确实可以做更多的工作，并且只是通过工作来合成蛋白质。
I've seen these guys in the gym.
我在健身房里见过这些人。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The signs are not that hard to spot where they're just doing a ton of volume, not necessarily moving that much weight.
这些迹象并不难发现，它们只是做了大量的运动，而不一定移动那么大的重量。
They're just bringing blood into the tissue.
他们只是将血液带入组织。
And then they're loading up on ...
然后他们正在加载......
They're eating a ton of protein, presumably because they're basically in puberty part 15, right?
他们吃了大量的蛋白质，大概是因为他们基本上正处于青春期第 15 部分，对吧？
They've got their 15th round of puberty where during puberty you are a protein-synthesis machine.
他们已经进入了第 15 轮青春期，在青春期，你是一台蛋白质合成机器。
To me, that's pretty clear about puberty.
对我来说，青春期的情况非常清楚。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Interesting.
有趣。
And then I know the audience likes to try protocol, so that you described a protocol very nicely.
然后我知道观众喜欢尝试协议，所以你很好地描述了协议。
What about day-to-day recovery?
日常恢复怎么样？
I mean, can the workout that you described as intense but short, how many days a week can the typical person do that and sustain progress?
我的意思是，你所描述的剧烈但短暂的锻炼，一般人每周可以做多少天并保持进步？
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
Yeah, I mean I think that comes back to your training age and your training history.
是的，我的意思是我认为这可以追溯到你的训练年龄和你的训练历史。
Obviously there's a resilience and a robustness with an incremental training age.
显然，随着训练年龄的增加，会产生弹性和稳健性。
So that's not a protocol that I would advise anyone to go out and start tomorrow.
所以这不是我建议任何人明天就开始的协议。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They'll be mopping them off the gym floor.
他们会把体育馆地板上的它们擦掉。
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
But at the same time, it's also relative, right?
但同时，它也是相对的，对吧？
So 80% of your maximum at a young training age is still 80% versus ...
因此，在年轻训练年龄时，你的最大值的 80% 仍然是 80%，而......
I've been training 10 years.
我已经训练了10年了。
It's still 80%.
仍然是80%。
But yes, the mechanical load is going to be significant, is just more tonnage, right?
但是，是的，机械负载将会很大，只是吨位更大，对吗？
But yeah, I think a protocol like that, we would look at two times a week.
但是，是的，我认为像这样的协议，我们每周会看两次。
Something that's pretty intensive like that, because again, it comes back to the point you make is that you really need to be, on a better term, suffering a little bit through that type of protocol, both in terms of the challenge of the load, but also being able to tolerate the metabolic stress that you're exposed to.
像这样相当密集的事情，因为再次回到你提出的观点，从更好的角度来说，你确实需要通过这种类型的方案承受一点痛苦，无论是在负荷的挑战方面，还是能够忍受你所面临的代谢压力。
It's a bit of a sicko feeling, right?
有点恶心的感觉，对吧？
Because of the lactate that you're driving up.
因为你的乳酸升高了。
So I wouldn't promote as an athlete doing that type of modality multiple times unless you are from the realms of bodybuilding.
所以我不会提倡作为一名运动员多次进行这种类型的训练，除非你来自健美领域。
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
And then you're really ...
然后你真的...
That's the sole purpose of what you're trying to achieve.
这是您想要实现的唯一目的。
Most athletes in most sports have diverse requirements, in terms of outcomes that they're trying to achieve.
大多数运动项目中的大多数运动员对于他们想要达到的结果都有不同的要求。
They're not just targeting muscle growth.
他们的目标不仅仅是肌肉生长。
Muscle growth is a conduit to increased strength, increased power and increased speed, obviously.
显然，肌肉生长是增加力量、增加力量和增加速度的途径。
So yes, trying to get a bigger cross section area of a muscle means that we can produce more force into the ground, or wherever it may be, if we're a locomotive athlete.
所以，是的，如果我们是一名机车运动员，尝试获得更大的肌肉横截面积意味着我们可以向地面或任何地方产生更多的力。
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
But usually sports men and women are not just purely seeking muscle growth.
但通常运动员不仅仅只是追求肌肉增长。
They look for different facets of muscle endurance or maximum muscle power, muscle strength.
他们寻找肌肉耐力或最大肌肉力量、肌肉力量的不同方面。
So then you've got to be very creative in how you build the workout.
因此，你必须在如何进行锻炼方面非常有创意。
If it's a bodybuilder, absolutely.
如果是健美运动员的话，绝对可以。
They're chasing muscle growth and they're going to do so with these types of protocols, which sees high intensities and high volumes of workload on a pretty regular basis.
他们追求肌肉增长，他们将通过这些类型的方案来实现这一目标，这些方案会定期进行高强度和高工作量。
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
If it's just somebody ...
如果只是某人的话...
a weekend warrior that wants to keep in shape and look good, I would say two times a week for a really challenging workout like that, and then flex the other types of workouts within the week to have more of a volume emphasis, where you reduce the intensity and you might just look at larger rep ranges from 12 to 15 to 20.
对于一个想要保持体形、看起来不错的周末勇士来说，我会说每周两次进行像这样真正具有挑战性的锻炼，然后在一周内调整其他类型的锻炼以更加强调训练量，在这种情况下，你可以降低强度，你可能只需要考虑更大的重复范围，从 12 到 15 到 20。
Another workout where you're looking at reducing the volume but increasing the intensity and really trying to drive different stimulus to give you more endpoints of success.
另一种锻炼方法是减少训练量，但增加强度，并真正尝试驱动不同的刺激，为您带来更多成功的终点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Great.
太棒了。
No, that's really informative.
不，这确实很有信息。
Along the lines of androgens and intensity, when I think intensity, I think epinephrine, adrenaline, and since you have a background in catecholamines and testosterone, last time I was here at the UFC Performance Institute, we had a brief conversation, and I want to make sure I got the details right, that in the short term, and a big increase in stress hormone can lead to an increase in testosterone, like a parachute jump.
沿着雄激素和强度的思路，当我想到强度时，我会想到肾上腺素、肾上腺素，而且由于你有儿茶酚胺和睾酮的背景，上次我在UFC表现研究所，我们进行了一次简短的交谈，我想确保我得到的细节是正确的，在短期内，压力激素的大幅增加会导致睾酮的增加，就像跳伞一样。
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
Correct.
正确。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So stress can promote the release of testosterone?
那么压力可以促进睾丸激素的释放吗？
That was news to me.
这对我来说是新闻。
We always hear about stress suppressing testosterone, stress suppressing the immune, all these terrible things.
我们总是听说压力会抑制睾丸激素，压力会抑制免疫，所有这些可怕的事情。
But in the short term, you're saying it can actually increase the release of testosterone.
但从短期来看，你说它实际上可以增加睾酮的释放。
So I have that right?
那我有这个权利吗？
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
Correct.
正确。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And so then the second question is, does my cognitive interpretation of the stressor make a difference?
那么第二个问题是，我对压力源的认知解释会产生影响吗？
In other words, if I voluntarily jump out of a plane with a parachute, does it have a different effect on my testosterone than if you shove me out of the plane against my will?
换句话说，如果我自愿带着降落伞从飞机上跳下来，这对我的睾丸激素的影响是否与你违背我的意愿将我推出飞机的效果不同？
Well, presumably with a parachute too.
嗯，大概也有降落伞。
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
So this was what all my PhD work was looking at, was the exposure to a stressor and the prearousal of how your body essentially prepares for that stressor and then how it manages it throughout the exposure to the stress.
所以这就是我所有的博士工作所关注的，是暴露在压力源下，以及你的身体如何为该压力源做好准备的前期准备，以及在整个暴露于压力源的过程中如何管理它。
And it was actually motivated from parachute jumpers.
它实际上是受到跳伞运动员的启发。
There was an older study looking at parachute jumpers into combat.
有一项较早的研究着眼于跳伞者参加战斗。
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
And then they were studying the cortisol, the stress response, and the epinephrine response of these parachute jumpers.
然后他们研究了这些跳伞者的皮质醇、压力反应和肾上腺素反应。
So we got us thinking about, "Hold on.
所以我们开始思考，“坚持住。
There's certain workouts that you do that are just daunting." It's like, "Okay, it's squat Saturday." Or whatever it may be, "Oh my gosh, this is going to destroy me."
有些训练是令人畏惧的。”就像，“好吧，周六深蹲。”或者不管是什么，“天哪，这会毁了我。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or, "I have to talk to this person I don't want to talk to." Right?
或者，“我必须和这个我不想说话的人说话。”正确的？
Or, I mean, something?
或者，我的意思是，有什么？
Or PhD dissertation?
还是博士论文？
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Exam or something?
考试什么的？
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
Even public speaking or whatever it may be.
甚至公开演讲或其他任何形式。
Now, we used a resistance-training protocol that these athletes knew was going to be very, very challenging.
现在，我们使用了阻力训练方案，这些运动员知道这将是非常非常具有挑战性的。
There's going to have some anxiety to doing it.
这样做会产生一些焦虑。
They knew there were going to be some physical distress from doing it, and therefore their mindset of how they were going to approach that was already set.
他们知道这样做会给身体带来一些痛苦，因此他们对于如何处理这一问题的心态已经确定。
So what we saw 15 minutes prior to the start of an exposure to the workout that the epinephrine, the noradrenaline, the adrenaline was already starting to prepare the body sympathetically to go into what it knew was going to be a very, very challenging workout.
因此，我们在锻炼开始前 15 分钟看到，肾上腺素、去甲肾上腺素、肾上腺素已经开始让身体做好准备，进入它知道这将是一项非常非常具有挑战性的锻炼。
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
So, that brings you back to exercise preparation.
那么，这会让你回到运动准备。
Preparation for certain competition, preworkout routines, the use of music, all these different things that we know can now, anecdotally, in the gym we put into place.
某些比赛的准备、训练前的例行公事、音乐的使用，所有这些我们知道的不同的事情现在都可以在我们的健身房中落实到位。
But the data that I presented showed that it was the first of its kind to show this link between epinephrine and norepinephrine release and arousal and then consequent performance.
但我提供的数据表明，这是首次证明肾上腺素和去甲肾上腺素释放、唤醒以及随后的表现之间的联系。
So force output throughout the workout was intimately linked.
因此，整个训练过程中的力量输出是密切相关的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So what was the takeaway there?
那么那里的外卖是什么？
Is it beneficial for people to get a little stressed about the upcoming impending event, whether or not it's a lift in the gym, or whether or not it's talking to somebody that you might be intimidated to talk to, or an exam?
人们对即将发生的事件感到一点压力是否有益，无论是在健身房举重，还是与你可能害怕与之交谈的人交谈，或者是考试？
Is the stress good for performance or is it harmful?
压力对表现有好处还是有害？
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
Yeah, and I think that's a great question, and I think I can only talk to physical exertion, which is what we were exploring.
是的，我认为这是一个很好的问题，我想我只能谈论体力消耗，这就是我们正在探索的内容。
And I don't want to tread on the toes of the psychologists with flow state and these types of things, because clearly-
我不想用心流状态和这类事情来触怒心理学家，因为很明显——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think you're in the position of scientific strength on this one.
我认为你在这方面具有科学实力。
I think you have the leverage.
我认为你有筹码。
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
All right.
好吧。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I have a lot of friends in that community, as I'll just say, as a buffer to the answer you're about to give, that there's very little science around flow, and there's very little neuroscience related to most psychological states anyway.
我在那个社区里有很多朋友，正如我要说的，作为你即将给出的答案的缓冲，关于心流的科学很少，而且与大多数心理状态相关的神经科学也很少。
So I think we've got a lot of degrees of freedom here.
所以我认为我们在这里有很多自由度。
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
All right.
好吧。
I can breathe easier.
我可以呼吸更轻松了。
Thank you for that.
谢谢你。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, I'll be, "Anything you like, credit Duncan, anything you dislike, send the mean comments to me."
是的，我会说，“任何你喜欢的东西，归功于邓肯，任何你不喜欢的东西，都可以将刻薄的评论发送给我。”
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
I think from my data, certainly the greater arousal, the higher the performance was from a physical exertion perspective.
我认为从我的数据来看，从体力消耗的角度来看，唤醒程度越高，表现就越高。
And I think that was the intriguing part of some of my findings where there's definitely an individual biokinetics to some of these hormonal kind of releases.
我认为这是我的一些发现中有趣的部分，其中一些激素释放肯定存在个体生物动力学。
And as much as those guys that had the highest adrenergic response in terms of epinephrine release, norepinephrine release, also sustained force output through a longer period of the workout than those that didn't.
那些在肾上腺素释放、去甲肾上腺素释放方面具有最高肾上腺素反应的人，也比那些没有的人在更长的锻炼时间内维持力量输出。
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
So the individuals that had a lower stimulus of the sympathetic arousal, let's say, certainly didn't perform as well throughout the workout.
因此，可以说，交感神经兴奋刺激较低的人在整个锻炼过程中肯定表现不佳。
Now the intriguing thing then becomes, okay, and I think this really segues into what we're doing here with combat athletes, with mixed martial artists.
现在有趣的事情就变成了，好吧，我认为这确实与我们在这里与格斗运动员和混合武术家所做的事情有关。
There's a philosophy, there's a paradigm now, for myself, in terms of the exposure, in terms of the repeat exposure.
对于我自己来说，就曝光而言，就重复曝光而言，现在有一种哲学，有一种范式。
The more you do that challenging workout, do you get the same psychological stimulus?
你越多地进行具有挑战性的锻炼，你会得到同样的心理刺激吗？
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
Do you still get the same stress response?
你还会得到同样的压力反应吗？
And the assumption is, unlikely.
这个假设是不可能的。
You accommodate, you become accustomed to the stressor, your body will therefore adapt.
你适应了，你就习惯了压力源，你的身体也会因此适应。
And that's the classic overload principle.
这就是经典的过载原理。
You then need to take the stressor down a different route.
然后你需要通过不同的途径来缓解压力。
But I think when you look at the athletes that we work with here, it's a fistfight at the end of the day.
但我认为，当你看看我们在这里合作的运动员时，你会发现，归根结底，这是一场打斗。
That's nothing more stressful than that.
没有什么比这更有压力了。
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
But I think just the exposure to the rigors of training, to understand the bad positions, the bad situations, to know that they can get out of certain situations, out of certain submission holds, or whatever it may be.
但我认为只是接受严格的训练，了解糟糕的位置，糟糕的情况，知道他们可以摆脱某些情况，摆脱某些屈服状态，或者任何可能的情况。
I think that really ties in with some of my PhD work in terms of what these guys do to approach what is a really challenging sport in arena in mixed martial arts.
我认为这确实与我的一些博士工作有关，这些人在综合武术竞技场上所做的工作是一项真正具有挑战性的运动。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, it's definitely the extreme of what's possible in terms of asking, does stress favor or hinder performance?
是的，这绝对是一个极端的问题，压力会促进还是阻碍绩效？
Because yeah, like you said, at the end of the day, it's someone trying to hurt you as much as they possibly can within the bounds of the rules, and you're trying to do the same.
因为是的，就像你说的，归根结底，有人试图在规则范围内尽可能多地伤害你，而你也在尝试做同样的事情。
So I find that your thesis work fascinating were you never to be at the UFC Performance Institute, luckily they made the right choice and brought you here, but were you have never to come here, I was still fascinated by this because over and over we hear that stress is bad, stress is bad, stress is bad.
所以我发现你的论文工作很有趣，如果你从来没有在UFC表演学院，幸运的是他们做出了正确的选择并把你带到了这里，但如果你从来没有来这里，我仍然对此着迷，因为我们一遍又一遍地听说压力是不好的，压力是不好的，压力是不好的。
But everything I read from the scientific literature is that stress, and epinephrine in particular, is coupled to the testosterone response to performance and to adaptation, provided it doesn't go on too long.
但我从科学文献中读到的所有内容都是，压力，尤其是肾上腺素，与睾酮对表现和适应的反应有关，只要压力不会持续太久。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So unless I'm saying something that violates that.
所以除非我说的话违反了这一点。
I mean, that's your work.
我的意思是，那是你的工作。
So it's really important and beautiful work, and I refer to it often, so I'm just glad that we could bolt that down because I think people need to know this, that discomfort is beneficial.
所以这是非常重要和美丽的工作，我经常提到它，所以我很高兴我们可以把它固定下来，因为我认为人们需要知道这一点，不适是有益的。
Now, there's another side to this that I want to ask about, which is the use of cold in particular, things like ice baths, cold showers, or any other type of cold temperature exposure.
现在，我想问的是另一方面，特别是冷的使用，例如冰浴、冷水淋浴或任何其他类型的低温暴露。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In theory, that's stress also, it's epinephrine.
从理论上讲，这也是压力，是肾上腺素。
And so how should one think about the use of cold for recovery?
那么人们应该如何考虑使用寒冷来恢复呢？
So if it's stress, if cold causes stress, then how is cold used for recovery?
那么，如果是压力，如果寒冷导致压力，那么如何利用寒冷来恢复呢？
That's what I don't understand.
这就是我不明白的地方。
And maybe you just want to share your thoughts on that.
也许您只是想分享您对此的想法。
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
Yeah, no, and I think it's a great question, and I think the jury is still out there, certainly knowing some of the conversations that we've been having.
是的，不，我认为这是一个很好的问题，而且我认为陪审团仍然在那里，当然知道我们一直在进行的一些对话。
But I think when we talk about stress, it's your classic fight, flight or freeze approach, and throwing your body into a cold tub, an ice bath or whatever it may be, certainly is going to have a physiological stress response.
但我认为，当我们谈论压力时，这是典型的战斗、逃跑或冻结方法，将你的身体扔进冷水浴缸、冰浴或任何可能的东西中，肯定会产生生理压力反应。
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
Now, people are using that for different end goals.
现在，人们将其用于不同的最终目标。
And again, I think that's where the narrative has to be explained.
再说一次，我认为这就是必须解释叙述的地方。
If you are using this stress specifically to manage the mindset, to use it as a specific stress stimulus, that's the same as me doing six by 10, 80%.
如果你专门使用这种压力来管理心态，将其用作特定的压力刺激，那就和我做 6 x 10、80% 一样。
You're just trying to find something to disrupt the system to do something that's very, for want of a better term, painful, discomfort, whatever.
你只是想找到一些东西来扰乱系统，去做一些非常痛苦、不舒服的事情，因为缺乏更好的术语。
You're just finding a stressor and then being able to manage the mindset.
你只是找到一个压力源，然后能够管理心态。
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
But if you're using cold, specifically from a physiological perspective, to promote redistribution of blood flow to different vascular areas of muscle that you feel have gone through a workout that are damaged, or whatever it may be, I think we've got to understand what that stress mechanism is.
但如果你使用寒冷，特别是从生理角度来看，来促进血流重新分配到肌肉的不同血管区域，而你觉得这些肌肉经过锻炼后受到了损伤，或者无论是什么，我认为我们必须了解压力机制是什么。
And the data, the literature is certainly still out there with respect to cryotherapy and cold baths and some of these cold exposures in terms of what they do at the level of the muscle tissue, if that's the target.
关于冷冻疗法和冷水浴以及其中一些冷暴露在肌肉组织水平上的作用（如果这是目标的话），数据、文献肯定仍然存在。
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
If you're trying to promote a flushing mechanism or you're trying to promote redistribution of the blood flow, what you've got to understand is that cold is going to clamp down every part of the vascular system, and we've really got to understand how the muscle would be redistributed to areas of interest.
如果你想促进冲洗机制或促进血流重新分布，你必须明白寒冷会抑制血管系统的每个部分，我们真的必须了解肌肉如何重新分布到感兴趣的区域。
So I think the stress response is a real thing with respect to cold exposure, but I think the narrative around what are you using the cold for has to precede the conversation because, yes, it's like putting your hand over a hot coal.
所以我认为压力反应对于寒冷暴露来说是真实存在的，但我认为关于你使用寒冷的目的的叙述必须在谈话之前进行，因为，是的，这就像把你的手放在热煤上一样。
That's the same way as jumping in a cold bath is.
这和跳冷水浴是一样的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think most people don't realize that you're going to get the epinephrine release from holding your hand up too close to a flame, and you're going to get it from getting in the ice bath-
我想大多数人都没有意识到，如果你的手离火焰太近，你会释放肾上腺素，而你会因为进入冰浴而释放肾上腺素——
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
And your body doesn't know the difference.
而你的身体并不知道其中的区别。
It is a primordial kind of physiological response that it's created over millions and millions of years.
这是一种原始的生理反应，是数百万年来产生的。
And I think that physiology is not changing, and it's fixed in a particular way right now that it doesn't understand the difference between whether it's six by 10 doing a challenging workout over here, whether it's putting my hands on the hot coal, whether it's a lion standing in front of me, or whatever.
我认为生理学并没有改变，它现在以一种特定的方式固定下来，它不明白在这里进行具有挑战性的六乘十的锻炼之间的区别，是否将我的手放在热煤上，是否有一头狮子站在我面前，或者其他什么。
That epinephrine response from the level of the brain down to the whole signaling cascade is the same.
从大脑水平到整个信号级联的肾上腺素反应都是相同的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And cold, I've heard, can actually prevent some of the beneficial effects of training, that it can actually get in the way of muscle growth, et cetera.
我听说，寒冷实际上可以阻止训练的一些有益效果，它实际上可以阻碍肌肉生长等等。
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
Yeah, there's some pretty robust data out there now showing that it definitely has an influence on performance variables like strength and power, in particular, but absolutely in terms of muscle hypertrophy, and there's a big kind of theme in the world of athletic performance right now in terms of periodization of cold exposure as a recovery modality.
是的，现在有一些相当可靠的数据表明，它肯定会对力量和爆发力等表现变量产生影响，特别是在肌肉肥大方面，而且目前在运动表现领域有一个很大的主题，即周期性冷暴露作为一种恢复方式。
When do you use cold?
什么时候用冷气？
Should you be using cold for recovery in periods of high training load when you're actually pursuing maybe general preparatory work?
当你实际上在进行一般的准备工作时，你是否应该在高训练负荷期间使用寒冷来恢复？
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
We're actually trying to pursue muscle growth.
我们实际上是在努力追求肌肉增长。
Well, that's usually where you get the most sore.
嗯，这通常是你最痛苦的地方。
It's usually where you feel the most fatigued, but it's probably not the most beneficial approach to using an ice bath in that scenario because you're dampening, you're dulling the mTOR pathway and the hypertrophic signaling pathway.
这通常是您感到最疲劳的地方，但在这种情况下使用冰浴可能不是最有益的方法，因为您会抑制、减弱 mTOR 通路和肥大信号通路。
Whereas in a competition phase, where actually quality of exercise and quality of execution of skill and technical work has to be maintained, you want to throw the kitchen sink of recovery capabilities and recovery interventions in that scenario because now the muscle building activity should be in the bank.
然而在比赛阶段，实际上必须保持锻炼的质量以及技能和技术工作的执行质量，在这种情况下你想把恢复能力和恢复干预措施扔到厨房，因为现在肌肉建设活动应该放在银行里。
That should have been done in the general preparatory work, and now you're focusing on technical execution.
本来应该在一般准备工作中完成的，现在你专注于技术执行。
So you're absolutely right.
所以你是完全正确的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, it's interesting.
不，这很有趣。
So if I understand correctly, if I want to maximize muscle growth or power or improvements and adaptations, then the inflammation response, the delayed onset muscle soreness, all the stuff that's uncomfortable and that we hear is so terrible is actually the stimulus for adaptation.
所以，如果我理解正确的话，如果我想最大化肌肉生长或力量或改善和适应，那么炎症反应、延迟性肌肉酸痛、所有不舒服的东西以及我们听到的如此可怕的东西实际上都是适应的刺激物。
And so using cold in that situation might short circuit my progress?
那么在这种情况下使用寒冷可能会缩短我的进度？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I don't know that I'll ever do this, but if I were to do an Ironman, or something, or run a marathon, under those conditions, I'm basically coming to the race, so to speak, with all the power and strength I'm going to have.
我不知道我是否会这样做，但如果我要参加铁人三项赛，或者其他什么，或者跑马拉松，在这些条件下，我基本上会带着我将拥有的所有力量和力量参加比赛。
And so there, reducing inflammation is good because it's going to allow me to perform more work, essentially?
那么，减少炎症是有好处的，因为它本质上可以让我做更多的工作？
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
Absolutely, yeah.
绝对是的。
You have to be strategic about when you use some of these interventions, and the time when you're preparing for a competition is not the appropriate time, excuse me, is the appropriate time when you want to drive recovery and make sure that your body is optimized when you're far away from a competition date or out of season, or whatever it may be, and you're really trying to just tear up the body a little bit to allow it to do its natural healing and adaptation processes to take place.
当你使用其中一些干预措施时，你必须有策略，对不起，当你准备比赛的时候不是合适的时间，是你想要推动恢复并确保你的身体在远离比赛日期或淡季或任何可能的情况时得到优化的合适时间，你真的试图稍微撕裂身体，让它进行自然的愈合和适应过程。
Well, you don't want to negate that.
好吧，你不想否认这一点。
You want the body to optimize its internal recovery, and that's how muscle growth is going to happen.
你希望身体优化其内部恢复，这就是肌肉生长的方式。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So interesting.
太有趣了。
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
There's a time kind of consideration that you need to make with these interventions, for sure.
当然，您需要对这些干预措施进行时间考虑。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
At the UFC Performance center, are the fighters periodizing their cold exposure, or are they just doing cold at will?
在UFC表演中心，拳手们是在周期性地进行寒冷暴露，还是只是随意地进行寒冷暴露？
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
Well, it's not just the UFC, and again, I talk about my personal experiences with different sports.
嗯，不仅仅是UFC，我再次谈论我在不同运动中的个人经历。
I think just education around where science is at and our understanding of concepts like the use of cold exposure for recovery, ice baths.
我认为只是围绕科学的所在以及我们对概念的理解进行教育，例如使用冷暴露来恢复、冰浴。
Everyone wants to jump in an ice bath, but I think as we've stepped back and scientists have started to figure out and look at some of the data, we're now more intuitive about, "Well actually that might not be the best or the most optimal approach."
每个人都想跳进冰浴中，但我认为，随着我们退后一步，科学家们开始弄清楚并查看一些数据，我们现在更加直观地认识到，“实际上，这可能不是最好或最优化的方法。”
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
And I think that's any given sport.
我认为任何特定的运动都是如此。
So yes, certainly here at the UFC we're trying to educate our athletes around appropriate timing.
所以，是的，在 UFC，我们当然正在努力在适当的时机教育我们的运动员。
And it's the same with nutrition, it's the same with an ice bath intervention.
营养方面也是如此，冰浴干预也是如此。
It's the same with lifting weights.
举重也是如此。
It's the same with going for a run or working out on the bike.
跑步或骑自行车锻炼是一样的。
There's tactics to when you do things and when you don't do things, and I think stress and cold exposure, we have to have a consideration around that as well.
当你做事和当你不做事时有策略，我认为压力和寒冷暴露，我们也必须对此进行考虑。
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
But it's not just MMA fighters, that's any athlete.
但不仅仅是综合格斗选手，所有运动员都是如此。
And I think it's the best professionals, the most successful professionals, do that really well.
我认为最好的专业人士、最成功的专业人士在这方面做得非常好。
They listen, number one, they educate themselves, and then they build structure.
第一，他们倾听，他们自我教育，然后他们建立结构。
And I think at the most elite level, we always talk about it here at the UFC, but the most elite level, you're not necessarily training harder than anybody else.
我认为在最精英级别，我们总是在 UFC 谈论它，但在最精英级别，你不一定比其他人更努力地训练。
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
Everybody in the UFC trains hard.
UFC 的每个人都刻苦训练。
Everyone is training super hard, but the best athletes, the true elite levels are the ones that can do it again and again and again on a daily basis and sustain a technical output for skill development.
每个人都在非常努力地训练，但最好的运动员、真正的精英水平是那些能够每天一次又一次地训练并维持技能发展的技术输出的人。
Therefore, their skills can improve, or physical development, their physical attributes can improve.
因此，他们的技能可以提高，或者身体发育，他们的身体属性可以提高。
So that ability to reproduce on a day-to-day basis falls into a recovery conversation.
因此，日常繁殖的能力属于恢复对话。
Now, when is the right time to use something like an ice bath and when isn't is part of the high-performance conversation for sure.
现在，什么时候适合使用冰浴之类的东西，什么时候不适合，这肯定是高性能对话的一部分。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So really they're scientists, they're building structure, they're figuring out variables.
所以他们实际上是科学家，他们正在构建结构，他们正在计算变量。
But it sounds like the ability to do more quality work over time is one of the key barriers.
但随着时间的推移，完成更多高质量工作的能力似乎是主要障碍之一。
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
I mean, it's fundamental.
我的意思是，这是根本性的。
I mean, garbage in, garbage out.
我的意思是，垃圾进来，垃圾出去。
Quality in quality out.
品质源于品质，品质源于品质。
But in our sport, I talk about mixed martial arts, it's truly a decathlon of combat.
但在我们的运动中，我谈论的是综合武术，它确实是一项十项全能的格斗比赛。
So there's so many different attributes, whether it's a grappling, whether it's a wrestling, whether it's the transition work, whether it's a stand up striking.
所以有很多不同的属性，无论是擒抱，无论是摔跤，无论是过渡工作，无论是站立攻击。
So the different facets of a training program in this sport are significantly large compared to something like a wide receiver in football.
因此，与足球中的外接手相比，这项运动的训练计划的不同方面要大得多。
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
And that's no disrespect for wide receivers, but they run routes, they're going to run a route, a passing tree, and that's all they need to do.
这并不是对外接手的不尊重，但他们会跑路线，他们会跑路线，一棵传球树，这就是他们需要做的。
These guys have to be on the ground, they've got to be great on the ground, they've got to be great standing up, they've got to be great with their back against the fence.
这些人必须在地面上，他们必须在地面上表现出色，他们必须站起来表现出色，他们必须在背靠栅栏时表现出色。
So there's so many different kinds of facets to our sport.
所以我们的运动有很多不同的方面。
So managing the distribution of all the training components is one of the biggest challenges of mixed martial arts.
因此，管理所有训练内容的分配是综合武术的最大挑战之一。
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
And the best guys get that right.
最优秀的人都能做到这一点。
They allow their body to optimize the training, and remember, why are we doing training?
他们让自己的身体优化训练，并记住，我们为什么要训练？
We're doing training for technical and tactical improvement.
我们正在进行技术和战术改进的训练。
Now, if your body is fatigued or you just can't expose yourself to more tactical development or technical development, then you're essentially doing yourself a disservice.
现在，如果您的身体感到疲劳，或者您无法让自己接受更多的战术发展或技术发展，那么您实际上是在伤害自己。
You're going to be behind the curve with respect to those guys that can reproduce that day in, day out.
与那些能够日复一日地复制的人相比，你将落后于那些人。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
On the topic of skill development, regardless of sport, we hear all the time, and it certainly is intuitive to me, that the person who can focus the best will progress the fastest.
关于技能发展的话题，无论什么运动，我们总是听到这样的说法：最专注的人进步最快，这对我来说当然是直观的。
But it's kind of interesting, sometimes I talk to athletes and they seem a little bit laid back about their training sometimes, and yet they obviously know how to flip the switch and they can really dial in the intensity.
但这很有趣，有时我与运动员交谈，他们有时似乎对训练有点悠闲，但他们显然知道如何翻转开关，并且可以真正调整强度。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do you think that there are optimal protocols for skill learning in terms of physical skill learning?
您认为在身体技能学习方面是否存在最佳的技能学习方案？
Could it ever be parameterized, like the six sets of 10 reps?
它可以参数化吗，比如六组，每组 10 次？
And this gets to the heart of neuroplasticity, which is still, it's not a black box, but it's kind of a black box with portions of it illuminated, I like to say.
这触及了神经可塑性的核心，我想说，它仍然不是一个黑匣子，但它是一个部分被照亮的黑匣子。
But what are your thoughts on skill development?
但您对技能发展有何看法？
For somebody that wants to get better at a sport, do you recommend a particularly long or short training session?
对于想要在某项运动上取得更好成绩的人，您会推荐特别长还是特别短的训练课程吗？
Does intensity matter or is it just reps?
强度重要还是只是次数？
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
Yeah, I think, no, it's not a volume-driven exercise.
是的，我想，不，这不是一个以训练量为导向的练习。
It's a quality-driven exercise.
这是一项以质量为导向的练习。
Listen, my expertise is not in motor learning and motor skill acquisition.
听着，我的专长不是运动学习和运动技能获取。
I tend to default to Dr. Gabriele Wulf, here at UNLV, for that.
为此，我倾向于默认内华达大学拉斯维加斯分校的 Gabriele Wulf 博士。
She's one of the leading proponents in this area.
她是该领域的主要支持者之一。
But if you look at true skill development, it is about rehearsal of accurate movement, accurate movement mechanics.
但如果你关注真正的技能发展，就会发现它是关于准确动作、准确动作力学的排练。
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
And as soon as that becomes impacted by fatigue or inaccurate movement, you're now losing the motor learning.
一旦受到疲劳或不准确运动的影响，你就会失去运动学习能力。
You're losing the accuracy of the skill that ...
你正在失去技能的准确性......
People can call it muscle memory or whatever they want.
人们可以将其称为肌肉记忆或任何他们想要的名称。
But essentially you're grooving neural axons to create movement patterns, and they're situational throughout the sport.
但本质上，你是在刻划神经轴突来创建运动模式，并且它们在整个运动中都是情境性的。
Whether it's a Cruyff turn in soccer or a jump shot in basketball or a full hand down the line.
无论是足球中的克鲁伊夫转身，篮球中的跳投，还是全手投篮。
You can carve out that particular posture and position and skill, and you can isolate it, and you can drill it again and again and again.
你可以塑造出特定的姿势、位置和技巧，你可以将它孤立出来，你可以一次又一次地练习它。
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
Now, as soon as fatigue is influencing that repetition, it's time to stop.
现在，一旦疲劳影响了这种重复，就该停止了。
And the best coaches understand that.
最好的教练都明白这一点。
They understand that it's quality over quantity when it comes to skill acquisition.
他们明白，在技能获取方面，质量重于数量。
So to answer your question, in a roundabout way, I would say yes, it's shorter sessions that are very high quality, and I think the best athletes, in my experience, are the ones that consciously and cognitively are aware of it at every moment of the training session.
因此，以一种迂回的方式回答你的问题，我会说是的，较短的训练质量非常高，而且我认为，根据我的经验，最好的运动员是那些在训练中的每时每刻都有意识和认知地意识到这一点的人。
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
They should leave the training session not necessarily just physically fatigued, but mentally fatigued, because they're completely engaged in the learning process.
他们在结束训练时不仅会感到身体疲劳，而且会感到精神疲劳，因为他们完全沉浸在学习过程中。
The problem then becomes, okay, if we just do lots of 30-minute sessions, we got to do a lot of 30-minute sessions to get the volume exposure of the repetition and the rehearsal of this skill again and again and again.
那么问题就变成了，好吧，如果我们只是进行大量 30 分钟的训练，我们就必须进行大量 30 分钟的训练，以一次又一次地重复和排练这项技能。
So it's a bit of a paradox.
所以这有点悖论。
It's a bit of a double-edged sword, but a three-hour session versus a 90-minute session, we'll take the 90-minute session any day when it comes to skill acquisition because that's going to be driven by quality over quantity.
这有点像一把双刃剑，但是 3 小时的课程与 90 分钟的课程相比，在技能获取方面我们随时都会选择 90 分钟的课程，因为这将由质量而非数量驱动。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Training and skill learning is incredibly mentally fatiguing.
培训和技能学习令人难以置信的精神疲劳。
I've often wondered why when one works out hard, whether or not it's with a run or with the weights, why it's hard to think later in the day?
我经常想知道为什么当一个人努力锻炼时，无论是跑步还是举重，为什么在一天晚些时候就很难思考？
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, there really does seem to be something to it.
是的，似乎确实有一些东西。
And I've wondered, is it depletion of adrenaline, dopamine?
我想知道，这是肾上腺素、多巴胺的耗尽吗？
I sometimes think it might be dopamine.
有时我想这可能是多巴胺。
And here I'm totally speculating, I don't have any data to support this, but if you hit a really hard workout or run early in the day, oftentimes the brain just doesn't want to do hard mental work, which gives me great admiration for these athletes that are drilling their mind and body all day every day with breaks.
在这里我完全是猜测，我没有任何数据支持这一点，但是如果你进行了非常艰苦的锻炼或在一天中早些时候跑步，通常大脑只是不想做艰苦的脑力工作，这让我非常钦佩这些运动员，他们每天都在休息时锻炼他们的思想和身体。
So what are your thoughts?
那么你的想法是什么？
What leads to the mental fatigue after physical performance?
是什么原因导致体育锻炼后精神疲劳？
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
Well, again, I don't want to talk out ...
好吧，我又不想说话了……
I'm talking to the man here-
我正在和这里的那个人说话——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, we're just two scientists speculating on this point.
好吧，我们只是两位科学家对这一点的推测。
Up until now, you've been giving us concrete peer-reviewed study-based feedback on my questions.
到目前为止，您一直在针对我的问题向我们提供基于同行评审的、基于研究的具体反馈。
But if we were to speculate, I mean, I think this is a common occurrence.
但如果我们推测的话，我的意思是，我认为这是一种常见现象。
People think if I get that really good workout in the morning, I feel better all day.
人们认为如果我早上锻炼得很好，我一整天都会感觉更好。
Right?
正确的？
That's true.
这是真的。
Unless that workout is really intense or really long.
除非锻炼真的很激烈或很长时间。
And then the mind just somehow won't latch on to mental work quite as well.
然后，不知何故，头脑就无法很好地专注于脑力工作。
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
I mean, just philosophically.
我的意思是，只是哲学上的。
And I think there's a, coming back to this kind of stress consideration, like a public speaking or taking an exam.
我认为，回到这种压力考虑，比如公开演讲或参加考试。
I mean, if you have an amazing coach who is setting up training in a particular way, it's challenging.
我的意思是，如果你有一位出色的教练，他以特定的方式安排训练，那就很有挑战性。
There's a strain related to it.
有一个与之相关的压力。
And I'm not talking physical strain.
我说的不是身体压力。
I'm talking, figuring things out, figuring out the skill.
我在说话，弄清楚事情，弄清楚技能。
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
And I think that can be stressful.
我认为这可能会带来压力。
The learning process can be stressful.
学习过程可能会有压力。
So we've touched on stress.
我们已经谈到了压力。
I also think if they hit the right technique, that reward center in the brain, that dopamine shot is going to fly up there.
我还认为，如果他们采用了正确的技术，即大脑中的奖励中心，多巴胺就会飞到那里。
And there's only so many times that we can get that before that becomes dampened.
在这种情况被削弱之前，我们只能得到这么多次。
And I think there's an energetic piece to it.
我认为其中有一个充满活力的部分。
There's the fueling of the brain, there's the carbohydrate-fueling exercise that actually, the strategy around how you fuel for learning and fuel for physical training is actually pretty similar.
有为大脑提供能量，有为碳水化合物提供能量的运动，实际上，为学习提供能量的策略和为体育训练提供能量的策略实际上非常相似。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Glucose.
葡萄糖。
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
It's glucose, it's sugar, at the end of the day.
归根结底，它是葡萄糖，它是糖。
So are you fueling accordingly around your training sessions, be that very physical?
那么，你在训练期间是否相应地补充能量，是不是非常体力消耗？
Because everyone thinks, "Okay, I'm going to jump on the treadmill, and I'm going to bang out 15 sprints at max effort, and I'm going to be dropping off and lying on the floor at the end of it, I need to refuel."
因为每个人都会想，“好吧，我要跳上跑步机，我要尽最大努力冲刺 15 次，最后我要倒在地板上，我需要补充能量。”
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
Well, what about the refueling of the brain?
那么，给大脑补充能量怎么样？
In a very demanding exercise or drilling session where you're looking at technique that you're trying to figure out, that's very challenging for your mind to figure out the complexity of it that still needs to be fueled or refueled afterwards.
在一项要求非常高的练习或训练过程中，你正在研究你想要弄清楚的技术，这对你的大脑来说是非常具有挑战性的，要弄清楚它的复杂性，而之后仍然需要补充或补充能量。
And I think that's obviously ...
我认为这显然是......
Might be an area where athletes do themselves a disservice by not appropriately fueling from what might be considered to be a lower-intensity session.
可能是运动员在低强度训练中没有适当补充能量而对自己造成伤害的领域。
But the cognitive challenge has been significantly high.
但认知挑战非常高。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So they're doing skill work or drill work, and it's taxing the brain.
所以他们正在做技能工作或训练工作，这对大脑来说是一种负担。
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
Correct.
正确。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And they're thinking, "Oh, I wasn't pushing hard lifts or doing sprints, so I can just go off the rest of my day." But then their mind is drifting.
他们会想，“哦，我没有进行高强度举重或短跑，所以我可以在剩下的时间里休息。”但随后他们的思想就开始漂移。
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
Yeah, I speculate.
是的，我推测。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That seems very reasonable.
这看起来很有道理。
I mean, I know that here and presumably with the other athletes you've worked with, nutrition is a huge aspect of that.
我的意思是，我知道在这里，大概还有与你合作过的其他运动员，营养是其中的一个重要方面。
And I think the general public can learn a lot from athletic nutrition because at the end of the day, the general public is trying to attend to their kids, attend to their work, whether or not they're lawyers or whatever, they need to focus.
我认为公众可以从运动营养中学到很多东西，因为归根结底，公众都在努力照顾他们的孩子，照顾他们的工作，无论他们是律师还是其他什么，他们都需要集中注意力。
Nutrition is a barbed wire topic.
营养是一个铁丝网话题。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But since we're free to do what we would do if we were just sitting in each other's offices, which is to just speculate a bit.
但既然我们可以自由地做我们坐在彼此办公室里会做的事情，这只是猜测一下。
For the typical person, do you think these low-carbohydrate diets, typical person who exercises, runs, swims, yoga, lifts, weights, maybe not all those things, but some collection of those, pushes themselves to do those things and to do them well, but isn't necessarily a highly competitive athlete.
对于典型的人来说，你认为这些低碳水化合物饮食，典型的锻炼、跑步、游泳、瑜伽、举重、举重的人，也许不是所有这些事情，而是其中一些事情的集合，迫使自己做这些事情并把它们做好，但不一定是一个高度竞争的运动员。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do you think that nutrition that doesn't include a lot of glucose, doesn't include a lot of carbohydrates, is a problem?
您认为不含大量葡萄糖、不含大量碳水化合物的营养有问题吗？
Or is it okay?
或者可以吗？
What do you recommend for athletes?
您对运动员有何建议？
What do you recommend for typical people?
您对普通人有何建议？
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
Yeah, again, disclaimer, I'm not a dietician, but I-
是的，再次声明，我不是营养师，但我-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's okay.
没关系。
The dieticians don't know what to recommend to athletes either.
营养师也不知道该向运动员推荐什么。
And I say that from having spent a lot of time with the literature now, it's a complete mess.
我说，从现在花了很多时间研究文献来看，这完全是一团糟。
It's like, I thought we didn't understand anything about the brain.
就像，我以为我们对大脑一无所知。
The nutrition science stuff is all over the place.
营养科学的东西无处不在。
So I think we have, again, large freedom, right?
所以我认为我们再次拥有很大的自由，对吗？
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
Right.
对。
I mean, think it comes down to metabolic efficiency.
我的意思是，我认为这取决于新陈代谢效率。
So we would never advocate a high ...
所以我们永远不会提倡高...
Never say never.
永远不要说永远。
Right?
正确的？
Okay.
好的。
But we rarely advocate a high-performance athlete in a high-intensity intermittent sport like MMA being totally ketogenic.
但我们很少提倡高水平运动员在 MMA 这样的高强度间歇性运动中完全生酮。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do not recommend that?
不推荐吗？
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
No, because at the end of the day, some of those high-intensity efforts usually require carbohydrate fueling for the high energy.
不，因为归根结底，一些高强度的训练通常需要碳水化合物来补充能量。
The energy to produce at those high intensities.
在高强度下产生的能量。
So we try to navigate around that.
所以我们尝试绕过这个问题。
Now listen, there are fighters in the UFC and elsewhere.
现在听着，UFC 和其他地方都有拳手。
Matt Brown is a great example who promotes the ketogenic approach and it works for him.
马特·布朗（Matt Brown）是推广生酮方法的一个很好的例子，而且这种方法对他很有效。
But we look at the science and the nature, the characteristics of our sport, and we don't necessarily promote that.
但我们着眼于科学和本质，以及我们运动的特点，但我们并不一定会提倡这一点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Can I interrupt you real quick?
我可以很快打断你吗？
What about ketones for people that are ingesting carbohydrates?
对于摄入碳水化合物的人来说，酮怎么样？
This is an interesting area because people always hear ketones and they think, "Oh, I have to be ketogenic to benefit from taking ketones." But there are a number of athletes, and recreational athletes now as well, taking liquid or powder-based ketones even though they do eat rice and oatmeal and bread and other things.
这是一个有趣的领域，因为人们总是听到酮，他们就会想，“哦，我必须生酮才能从服用酮中受益。”但现在有许多运动员和休闲运动员服用液体或粉末状酮，尽管他们确实吃米饭、燕麦片、面包和其他东西。
So are there any known benefits of ketones, even if one is not in a state of ketosis?
那么，即使一个人没有处于酮症状态，酮是否有任何已知的好处呢？
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
So the use of ketones that I'm primarily aware of in our sport is after the event, in terms of the brain health, with athletes potentially taking trauma to the brain, et cetera, and looking to maintain the fueling and the energy supply to the brain.
因此，我在我们的运动中主要意识到酮的使用是在赛后，就大脑健康而言，运动员可能会受到大脑创伤等，并希望维持大脑的燃料和能量供应。
But yes, it's probably a little bit on my so I don't want to talk on that because I'm not fully familiar with that.
但是，是的，这可能有点影响我，所以我不想谈论这个，因为我对此并不完全熟悉。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, I've heard that ketones after a head injury can provide a buffering component.
嗯，我听说头部受伤后酮可以提供缓冲成分。
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
Correct.
正确。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's not going to reverse brain damage, but it might be able to offset some of the microdamage.
它不会逆转脑损伤，但可能能够抵消一些微损伤。
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
So, that's how we use it just to sustain the energy supply to the brain that might be compromised through brain trauma.
所以，这就是我们如何使用它来维持大脑的能量供应，而这可能会因脑外伤而受到损害。
So that's why we use ketones.
这就是我们使用酮的原因。
To come back to the original question, if it's a general population, then yes, I think there's a place to argue that actually being on a ketogenic diet at times, and maybe that's a cycling exercise, maybe not.
回到最初的问题，如果是一般人群，那么是的，我认为有一个地方可以争论，有时实际上是在进行生酮饮食，也许这是一种骑自行车运动，也许不是。
I don't mean cycling on a bike, I mean cycling ketosis is beneficial because I think it's going to lead to better metabolic management and metabolic efficiency.
我并不是说骑自行车，我的意思是骑自行车酮症是有益的，因为我认为它将带来更好的代谢管理和代谢效率。
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
Those lower intensities where we should be fueling our metabolism with lipids and fats.
在那些较低的强度下，我们应该用脂质和脂肪来促进新陈代谢。
Clearly the Western diet and the modern day diet is heavily driven by processed foods and carbohydrates that people become predisposed to utilization of that fuel source, above lipid use, fat use, intensities that are very low.
显然，西方饮食和现代饮食在很大程度上是由加工食品和碳水化合物驱动的，人们倾向于利用这种燃料来源，而不是脂质使用、脂肪使用，强度非常低。
So some of our data with the fighters shows that as well.
我们与战斗机的一些数据也表明了这一点。
But I think the challenge for us is that we're working with a clientele that require high intensity bouts of effort.
但我认为我们面临的挑战是我们正在与需要高强度努力的客户合作。
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
So fueling appropriately is very important for that.
因此，适当补充能量对此非常重要。
Now, we use tactics here where we essentially have athletes on what you would say is it largely a ketogenic diet, but then we will fuel carbohydrates around training sessions.
现在，我们在这里使用的策略是让运动员基本上采用生酮饮食，但随后我们将在训练期间补充碳水化合物。
So we'll do very timed exposure to carbohydrates.
所以我们会非常定时地接触碳水化合物。
So it's not-
所以这不是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Post training?
后期培训？
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
Post training.
后期培训。
Immediately, pre, during, and then immediately post, and then the rest of their diets, breakfast, lunch and dinner are what would look like ketogenic-type approaches.
立即、赛前、赛中、赛后，以及其余的饮食，早餐、午餐和晚餐，看起来都像是生酮型方法。
So we're trying to be very tactical in the exposure to maximize the intensity for the training and then return to a metabolically efficient diet, which is heavily reduced in carbohydrate because we've fueled the sessions that need it.
因此，我们在暴露方面采取非常策略性的做法，以最大限度地提高训练强度，然后恢复代谢高效的饮食，这种饮食中碳水化合物的含量大大减少，因为我们已经为需要它的训练提供了能量。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, I'm smiling because once again, this place, the UFC Performance center is doing things scientifically, and I'm pleased to hear that because to me, this idea that the ketogenic diet is the best and only diet, or carbohydrates and low protein diets are the best diet.
哦，我笑了，因为再一次，这个地方，UFC表演中心正在科学地做事，我很高兴听到这个，因为对我来说，生酮饮食是最好的也是唯一的饮食，或者碳水化合物和低蛋白饮食是最好的饮食。
It's ludicrous.
这太可笑了。
Then you mentioned metabolic efficiency.
然后你提到了代谢效率。
I think some people might be familiar with that term, some perhaps not.
我想有些人可能熟悉这个词，有些人可能不熟悉。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But the way I understand metabolic efficiency is that you teach the body to use fats by maybe doing long bouts of cardio, maybe lowering carbohydrates a bit.
但我理解代谢效率的方式是，你可以通过长时间的有氧运动，或者稍微降低碳水化合物来教会身体使用脂肪。
So teaching the body to tap into its fat storage for certain periods of training.
因此，教导身体在某些训练期间利用其脂肪储存。
And then you also teach the body to utilize carbohydrates by supplying carbohydrates immediately after training and before training.
然后，您还可以通过在训练后和训练前立即提供碳水化合物来教会身体利用碳水化合物。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You teach the body to use ketones, and then you use them at the appropriate time as opposed to just deciding that one of these fuel sources is good and all the others are bad or dispensable.
你教身体使用酮，然后在适当的时间使用它们，而不是仅仅决定这些燃料来源之一是好的，而所有其他的都是坏的或可有可无的。
Do I have that correct?
我说的对吗？
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
You nailed it.
你成功了。
I mean, Bob Seebohar, formally of USA Triathlon, is the guy that kind of came up with the concept of metabolic efficiency.
我的意思是，鲍勃·西博哈（Bob Seebohar），美国铁人三项赛的正式成员，是提出代谢效率概念的人。
But yes, you're absolutely right.
但是，是的，你是绝对正确的。
I mean, at low intensities of exercise or just day-to-day living, we shouldn't be tapping into our carbohydrate fuel sources extensively.
我的意思是，在低强度运动或日常生活中，我们不应该广泛利用碳水化合物燃料来源。
That's for higher intensity work, or the fight-or-flight needs of stress.
这是为了更高强度的工作，或者压力的战斗或逃跑的需要。
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
If athletes or any individual has a high-carbohydrate diet, they're going to start to become predisposed to utilizing that fuel source preferentially.
如果运动员或任何人有高碳水化合物饮食，他们将开始倾向于优先利用这种燃料来源。
Now, a low intensity, that can be problematic, certainly for an athlete, because if they preferentially use carbohydrate at lower intensity, when the exercise demand goes to a higher intensity, they've already exhausted their fuel stores.
现在，低强度可能会产生问题，尤其是对于运动员来说，因为如果他们优先使用较低强度的碳水化合物，那么当运动需求达到较高强度时，他们已经耗尽了能量储备。
They can't draw upon fat because the oxidization of that fat is just too slow.
它们无法吸收脂肪，因为脂肪的氧化速度太慢。
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
So they're essentially now become fatigued because they've already utilized the carbohydrate stores.
所以他们现在基本上变得疲劳了，因为他们已经利用了碳水化合物的储存。
So what we try to do, yes, through diet manipulation and a little bit of exercise manipulation is, as you say, teach the body or train the body to preferentially use a specific fuel source — fat, obviously at lower intensities, and carbohydrate at high intensities.
所以我们试图做的，是的，通过饮食控制和一点运动控制，正如你所说，教导身体或训练身体优先使用特定的燃料来源——脂肪，显然在较低强度下，碳水化合物在高强度下。
And when we look at ...
当我们看到...
specifically the crossover point between the two tells a lot in terms of how an athlete is ultimately ...
特别是两者之间的交叉点很大程度上说明了运动员最终的表现......
how their metabolism is working.
他们的新陈代谢如何运作。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, again, I'm smiling because I love this because it's grounded in something real and scientific, which is that we have these different fuel sources.
好吧，我再次微笑，因为我喜欢这个，因为它基于真实和科学的东西，那就是我们拥有这些不同的燃料来源。
The body can adapt to use any number of them or one of them.
身体可以适应使用任意数量的它们或其中的一种。
I think most people are looking for that one pattern of eating, that one pattern of exercising that's going to be best for them or sustain them.
我认为大多数人都在寻找一种最适合他们或维持他们的饮食模式、锻炼模式。
And they often look back to the time when they felt so much better switching from one thing to the next.
他们经常回顾从一件事切换到另一件事时感觉好多了的时光。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But the adaptation process itself is also key, right?
但适应过程本身也很关键，对吧？
Teaching the body.
教导身体。
So if we were to just riff on this just a little bit further, if somebody, I'll use myself as an example since I can only speculate what other people's current nutrition protocols are.
因此，如果我们要进一步讨论这个问题，如果有人的话，我会用自己作为例子，因为我只能推测其他人当前的营养方案是什么。
But if somebody is eating in a particular way and they want to try this kind of periodization of nutrition, could one say, "Okay, for a few weeks I'm going to do more high-intensity interval training and weight training, and I'm going to eat a bit more carbohydrate because I'm depleting more glycogen?"
但是，如果有人以某种特定的方式饮食，并且想要尝试这种营养周期化，人们可以说，“好吧，几周内我将进行更多的高强度间歇训练和重量训练，并且我将吃更多的碳水化合物，因为我会消耗更多的糖原？”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Then if I switch to a phase of my training where I'm doing some longer runs, maybe I'm training less, maybe I'm just working at my desk a little bit more, then I might switch to a lower-carbohydrate diet.
然后，如果我切换到训练的一个阶段，进行更长距离的跑步，也许我训练较少，也许我只是在办公桌前工作多一点，那么我可能会改用低碳水化合物饮食。
Do I have that right?
我有这个权利吗？
And then if I'm going to enter a competition of some sort, certainly not UFC, right, or MMA of any kind, to be clear, not because it isn't a wonderful sport, but because that wouldn't be good for my other profession.
然后，如果我要参加某种比赛，当然不是 UFC，或者任何类型的 MMA，需要明确的是，不是因为这不是一项精彩的运动，而是因为这对我的其他职业不利。
But if I were going to do that, then I would think about stacking carbohydrates and fats.
但如果我要这样做，那么我会考虑堆积碳水化合物和脂肪。
Do I have that more or less right?
我或多或少有这样的权利吗？
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
I mean, yeah, you said it eloquently.
我的意思是，是的，你说得很有说服力。
At the end of the day, you're consciously understanding what the exposure to physical exertion is, and you're flexing your diet accordingly.
一天结束时，您会有意识地了解体力消耗的情况，并相应地调整饮食。
And I think that's-
我认为那就是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So it's need-based eating?
那么这是基于需求的饮食吗？
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
Exactly, for one of better terms; you can call it whatever fancy terminology there is out there.
确切地说，是为了更好的说法之一；你可以用任何花哨的术语来称呼它。
But yes, it's needs-based eating.
但是，是的，这是基于需求的饮食。
But you're very conscious and cognizant of what is my current exercise status.
但你非常清楚并了解我目前的锻炼状况。
If I'm taking some time off, then don't gorge on the carbohydrates.
如果我要休息一段时间，那就不要狼吞虎咽地吃碳水化合物。
We probably need to cut ...
我们可能需要削减...
It's going to be lower-intensity work or even just habitual day-to-day walking around doing your groceries.
这将是低强度的工作，甚至只是习惯性地每天走来走去买杂货。
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
That doesn't require massive amounts of glycogen storage and carbohydrate fueling.
这不需要大量的糖原储存和碳水化合物补充。
So you can potentially go more ketogenic in nature, oxidizing lipids for that fuel.
因此，您本质上可能会更加生酮，氧化脂质作为燃料。
If you are in a high period of high-intensity training, then you have to consciously flex your diet to support that.
如果您正处于高强度训练的高时期，那么您必须有意识地调整饮食来支持这一点。
That's not normal.
这不正常。
You've made a change, you've elevated the demands.
你做出了改变，你提高了要求。
So the fueling requirements, not only fuel in the exercise, but the regenerative requirements of your body after that type of work is going to be really important as well.
因此，能量需求，不仅是运动中的能量，而且在此类工作之后身体的再生需求也非常重要。
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
So yes, take on more carbohydrates.
所以，是的，摄入更多碳水化合物。
So I think it's consciously interpreting the nature of your diet against where you are at any moment in time.
所以我认为这是有意识地根据你在任何时刻的情况来解释你的饮食本质。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think the listeners in my podcast generally are experimenters, and they are scientists of themselves, which makes me happy, obviously.
我认为我的播客中的听众通常都是实验者，他们自己就是科学家，这显然让我很高兴。
And I like to think that they're paying attention to the changes they're making and how they're affecting themselves, and they seem more open to trying things, provided they can do it safely, and seeing what works for them.
我喜欢认为他们正在关注他们正在做出的改变以及他们如何影响自己，他们似乎更愿意尝试一些事情，只要他们能够安全地做到这一点，并看看什么对他们有用。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I'm certainly going to try some of the change up.
我当然会尝试一些改变。
I'm also really a creature of habit and I think talking to you today, I realize I'm probably doing a number of things truly wrong in my training, but also that I don't tend to vary my nutrition with my training quite as much as I should.
我也是一个习惯性的人，我想今天和你们交谈，我意识到我在训练中可能做了很多真正错误的事情，但我也没有像我应该的那样在训练中改变我的营养。
I'm just locked into a protocol.
我只是被束缚在一个协议中。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We covered a number of things related to your PhD thesis work, but I cut you off early on related to your trajectory after you finished your thesis.
我们讨论了许多与你的博士论文工作相关的事情，但我在你完成论文后很早就切断了与你的轨迹相关的内容。
Yeah, I know you were at Notre Dame for a while.
是的，我知道你在巴黎圣母院待了一段时间。
Was that your first spot after your PhD thesis?
这是您博士论文后的第一个职位吗？
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
No, no, I basically finished my PhD, and I dropped into the British Olympic system for about 14 years.
不不，我基本上完成了博士学位，并投入英国奥林匹克体系大约14年。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh my.
天哪。
Okay.
好的。
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
I've done three full Olympic cycles with different sports and largely a strength and conditioning coach and as a practitioner.
我已经完成了三个完整的奥运会周期，涉及不同的运动项目，主要是体能教练和练习者。
I was always working in universities, in academia alongside in terms of continuing to publish and write and do research and teach as well because I enjoy teaching.
我一直在大学、学术界工作，同时继续出版、写作、研究和教学，因为我喜欢教学。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That explains the volume of publications.
这就解释了出版物的数量。
I don't think people realize the work that goes into getting a quality peer-reviewed publication.
我认为人们没有意识到获得高质量的同行评审出版物所需要付出的努力。
It's not ...
这不是...
what do they call it now on Instagram?
他们现在在 Instagram 上怎么称呼它？
"Anecdata," where people do something, they have this experience and then they put in the world that it's ...
“轶事”，人们做某事，他们有这种经验，然后他们把它告诉世界......
Anecdata are, I don't even know that we should call it data.
轶事是，我什至不知道我们应该称其为数据。
But 14 years in working with the British Olympic team?
但与英国奥运代表队共事了 14 年？
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
Yeah.
是的。
So whether it was GB boxing, primarily with the Beijing cycle, but also lightweight rowers and gymnastics, and for the London Olympic Games, that cycle, I was the lead strength and conditioning and physical performance coach for British basketball.
因此，无论是英国拳击（主要是北京周期），还是轻量级赛艇和体操，以及伦敦奥运会（该周期），我都是英国篮球的首席体能教练和体能教练。
So GB basketball, I had about three years in the English Premier League with Newcastle United and the soccer team.
在英国篮球方面，我在英超联赛中为纽卡斯尔联队和足球队效力了大约三年。
And then for the Rio Olympic cycle, I was with Great Britain Taekwondo.
然后在里约奥运会周期，我参加了英国跆拳道队。
So again, another combat sport.
又是另一项格斗运动。
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
After I'd finished there, I kind of moved to the University of Notre Dame, where I went into more of a managerial position, working across all the different technical services, medical nutrition, strengthening, conditioning, psychology, whatever, sport science, whatever it may be.
在那里完成学业后，我搬到了圣母大学，在那里我担任了更多的管理职位，涉及所有不同的技术服务、医疗营养、力量、体能、心理学等等，运动科学，无论是什么。
And as the Director of Performance Sciences for Notre Dame athletics.
并担任圣母大学体育运动表现科学总监。
And then after about 16 months there, the UFC came knocking and they recruited me out of Notre Dame.
在那里呆了大约 16 个月后，UFC 来敲门，他们从圣母大学招募了我。
So it's been a great ride, and lots of athletes have taught me a lot along the way.
所以这是一次很棒的旅程，一路上很多运动员教会了我很多东西。
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
Lots of coaches; "Every day is a school day." I still try and keep that mentality, and in this world we call it "white-belt mentality." I'm a PhD.
教练很多； “每天都是上学日。”我仍然努力保持这种心态，在这个世界上我们称之为“白带心态”。我是一名博士。
I've got 25 years of experience in high-performance sport, but I still learn every single day from these people out on the mats and in the ring, and it's impressive to see what they do.
我在高性能运动领域拥有 25 年的经验，但我仍然每天都在垫子上和擂台上向这些人学习，看到他们所做的事情令人印象深刻。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, it certainly is.
是的，确实如此。
I got introduced to MMA just a few years ago.
几年前我才接触到 MMA。
I think the first time I came out here was one of the first times I'd heard of MMA, because I was kind of in my laboratory and nose down.
我想我第一次来到这里是我第一次听说 MMA，因为我有点在实验室里低着头。
And it's a really interesting sport, because it incorporates so many different types of movement.
这是一项非常有趣的运动，因为它包含了许多不同类型的运动。
As you said, it's not just standup boxing, it's not just kicking, it's ground game, everything.
正如你所说，这不仅仅是站立拳击，不仅仅是踢腿，它是地面比赛，一切。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I'm still learning about it.
我仍在学习它。
But as you mentioned, going in with that beginner's mind, white-belt mentality, what has been the most surprising thing for you in terms of being exposed to MMA, in particular, as opposed to other sports?
但正如您提到的，带着初学者的心态、白带心态，在接触 MMA 方面，特别是与其他运动相比，最令您惊讶的事情是什么？
What's unique about MMA fighters besides that they have this huge variety of tactical skills that they have to learn and perfect?
除了拥有必须学习和完善的多种多样的战术技能之外，综合格斗选手还有什么独特之处呢？
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
Yeah, that's a great question.
是的，这是一个很好的问题。
I would say two things.
我想说两件事。
I'm going to answer two questions.
我要回答两个问题。
One actually reiterates what you've already said.
实际上重复了你已经说过的话。
The degrees of freedom in mixed martial arts are exponential, like no other sport.
与其他运动不同，综合格斗的自由度是指数级的。
We've got 11 different weight classes, we have men's classes, we have women's classes, we have kickboxers, wrestlers, jujitsu fighters, judokas — like karate fighters.
我们有 11 个不同的体重级别，我们有男子级别，我们有女子级别，我们有跆拳道运动员、摔跤运动员、柔术运动员、柔道运动员——比如空手道运动员。
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
The stylistic backgrounds are infinite.
风格背景是无限的。
We're a weight classification sport.
我们是一项体重分级运动。
There's a whole issue relating to making weight and then rebounding to fight about 24 to 30 hours.
增加体重然后反弹以参加大约 24 到 30 小时的战斗是一个完整的问题。
Just the variability in this sport, the considerations that you have to make are unprecedented compared to any of the sport that I've worked with.
只是这项运动的可变性，与我参与过的任何运动相比，你必须考虑的因素是前所未有的。
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
And a lot of them go against and are the antithesis of what you would expect for a high performance.
其中许多与您对高性能的期望背道而驰。
In terms of, we don't always have a very clearly defined competition schedule.
就而言，我们并不总是有一个非常明确的比赛时间表。
Once these guys fight, they don't necessarily know when their next fight's going to be.
一旦这些家伙打起来，他们不一定知道下一次战斗会在什么时候。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What's the closest spacing of a fight?
一场战斗的最近距离是多少？
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
I mean, listen, I think the record is around just over a month, I believe.
我的意思是，听着，我相信这张唱片只有一个多月了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh goodness.
噢，天啊。
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
So, that's a quick turnaround.
所以，这是一个快速的转变。
But most of these guys are fighting three or four times a year.
但这些人中的大多数人每年都会打架三四次。
Three times a year is pretty normal.
一年三次很正常。
The bigger fights, maybe two times a year.
更大的战斗，也许一年两次。
But invariably the guys don't know when that next date is going to be.
但他们总是不知道下一次约会是什么时候。
So we're in this gray area of, "Okay, what do we do?
所以我们处于这个灰色地带，“好吧，我们该怎么办？
Are we taking some time off?
我们要休息一段时间吗？
Are we just going to do some general prep work?
我们只是要做一些一般性的准备工作吗？
Are we going to try and keep the knife sharpened in case I get-
我们是否要尝试让刀保持锋利，以防我——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I didn't realize this, in that way it's a lot like Special Operations.
我没有意识到这一点，这很像特种作战。
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
You don't know when the call is going to happen.
你不知道什么时候会接到电话。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They have to be ready at all times.
他们必须时刻做好准备。
There isn't this like, "Let's get ready for season."
不会有“让我们为赛季做好准备”之类的话。
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
Right.
对。
When I was with the British Olympic Association, I knew it was the British Open, the Spanish Open, the French Open, the European Championships, the Israeli Open, the American Open, the Canadian Open, the Olympic Games and I could-
当我在英国奥林匹克协会工作时，我知道这是英国公开赛、西班牙公开赛、法国公开赛、欧洲锦标赛、以色列公开赛、美国公开赛、加拿大公开赛、奥运会，我可以-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's the circuit in your brain-
这是你大脑中的电路——
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
You just plan where all the targets are going to be.
您只需计划所有目标的位置即可。
Here, it's a moving target because you might be just hanging out doing some general prep work and then you might get a short notice fight to give you a quick call, and in six weeks or five weeks and "Okay, I've got to ramp everything up really quickly." So that's a real challenge in terms of just managing all these different components of mixed martial arts alone.
在这里，这是一个不断变化的目标，因为你可能只是闲逛做一些一般性的准备工作，然后你可能会在短时间内接到通知，给你一个快速的电话，在六周或五周内，“好吧，我必须迅速加快一切。”因此，就单独管理混合武术的所有这些不同组成部分而言，这是一个真正的挑战。
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
To come back to your question, the other thing which is truly fascinating about these individuals is just their mental resilience, and again we've touched on it in the talk, but the ability to do what they do on a daily basis, to look at all the different skill sets that they have to try and engage in and bring into their training.
回到你的问题，这些人真正令人着迷的另一件事是他们的心理弹性，我们在演讲中再次谈到了这一点，但他们每天所做的事情的能力，看看他们必须尝试和参与的所有不同技能组合，并将其带入他们的培训。
To do that and embrace the grind, embrace the process of just learning the physical side of our sport is unprecedented.
要做到这一点并拥抱磨砺，拥抱学习我们运动的身体方面的过程是前所未有的。
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
But the mental side, we have a funny saying, we always say it's 90% mental apart from the 60% that's physical.
但在精神方面，我们有一个有趣的说法，我们总是说 90% 是精神方面的，除了 60% 是身体方面的。
So it's just more and more and more.
所以它只是越来越多。
And these guys' ability to just do that on a daily basis is very impressive.
这些人每天都能做到这一点的能力令人印象深刻。
Their resilience, their internal drive in their resilience, is really impressive to see.
他们的韧性，他们韧性的内在动力，确实令人印象深刻。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
All the fighters I've met on here have been really terrific.
我在这里遇到的所有战士都非常出色。
It's interesting, every time I meet a fighter ...
有趣的是，每次我遇到战士时......
it shouldn't be surprising, where they're often very soft spoken, right?
这并不奇怪，因为他们说话通常都很轻声，对吧？
They're always extremely polite.
他们总是非常有礼貌。
And fighting comes from a very primitive portion of the brain but a large portion of the brain nonetheless.
战斗来自大脑的一个非常原始的部分，但仍然是大脑的很大一部分。
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
But I think that's another skill is that switch.
但我认为另一个技能就是转换。
And again, that's the recoverability piece.
再说一遍，这是可恢复性部分。
You cannot be type A, or you cannot be supercharged 24 hours a day because you're going to just fry your system.
你不能成为A型，或者你不能一天24小时都处于超负荷状态，因为你只会把你的系统烧坏。
And I think that's something else where we are really trying to manage this whole process, be it through nutritional interventions, be it through education around sleep, be it through training program management, be it through psychological interventions.
我认为这是我们真正试图管理整个过程的另一件事，无论是通过营养干预，无论是通过睡眠教育，无论是通过培训计划管理，还是通过心理干预。
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
You could look at fighters and say, "These guys are go.
你可以看着战士们说：“这些家伙走了。
Like, they're red alert and they'll run through a brick wall." But actually again, their ability to turn it on and off means that they can do what they do.
就像，他们处于红色警报状态，他们会穿过砖墙。”但实际上，他们打开和关闭它的能力意味着他们可以做他们所做的事情。
They can bring it down and be very normal, very, very polite, very accommodating.
他们可以淡定下来，表现得非常正常、非常非常有礼貌、非常包容。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Maybe even better than most people.
也许比大多数人还要好。
Because one of the reasons I'm obsessed with human performance and high performance and people like fighters and elite military, or even bodybuilders, for that matter, is that they experiment.
因为我痴迷于人类表现和高性能以及像战士和精英军人，甚至健美运动员这样的人，原因之一是他们进行实验。
They find the outer limits of what's possible.
他们发现了可能性的外部极限。
But one of the things that they have discovered is, as you're describing, this ability to toggle between high-alert states and calm states.
但正如您所描述的，他们发现的一件事是这种在高度警戒状态和平静状态之间切换的能力。
Most typical people can't do this.
大多数普通人都做不到这一点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They see something that upsets them on the Internet or something on the news, or some external event pressures down on them, and they're stressed for many, many days and weeks.
他们在互联网上或新闻中看到一些令他们不安的事情，或者一些外部事件给他们带来压力，他们在很多很多天和几周内都承受着压力。
And sometimes it goes pathological.
有时它会变得病态。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I don't say this as a criticism, it's just that most human beings, within our species, most members of our species never learn to either flip the switch or to just voluntarily toggle between states.
我这么说并不是为了批评，只是我们物种中的大多数人类，我们物种的大多数成员从来没有学会打开开关或只是自愿在状态之间切换。
I think athletes learn how to do that extremely well.
我认为运动员学会了如何做得非常好。
And it sounds like MMA fighters do that even better than perhaps many other athletes.
听起来综合格斗选手在这方面甚至比许多其他运动员做得更好。
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
I mean, yeah, there's the odd one or two that we struggle with, but I think in terms of that chronic exposure, we see that coming from challenges around cyclical weight cutting and metabolic disruption and metabolic injury, not necessarily from the psychological drive.
我的意思是，是的，我们遇到了一两个奇怪的问题，但我认为就长期暴露而言，我们看到它来自周期性减肥、代谢紊乱和代谢损伤的挑战，不一定来自心理驱动。
They do understand that this is a job for them, and the time on the mats, most of them can turn it off a little bit and downgrade things when they're off the mats.
他们确实明白这对他们来说是一份工作，而且在垫子上的时间里，他们中的大多数人都可以把它关掉一点，并在离开垫子时降低等级。
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
It's impressive to see because again, because as a layman just looking in at the fight game, you think it's going to be crazy, chaotic, a hundred miles an hour every hour of every day.
再次看到它令人印象深刻，因为作为一个外行，只要观看格斗游戏，你就会认为这将是疯狂的、混乱的、每天每小时一百英里的速度。
But that's clearly not the case.
但事实显然并非如此。
They manage their energy and their efforts pretty well.
他们很好地管理自己的精力和努力。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So it's a little bit like science, although maybe scientists could take a lesson from it.
所以这有点像科学，尽管科学家们也许可以从中吸取教训。
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
Yeah, it's evidence-based practice or practice-based evidence.
是的，这是基于证据的实践或基于实践的证据。
Right?
对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I like that.
我喜欢这样。
That's good.
那很好。
A couple more questions.
还有几个问题。
I can't help myself.
我无法自拔。
I know we talked about temperature earlier when we discussed cold, but I can't help myself.
我知道我们之前讨论寒冷时谈到了温度，但我无法控制自己。
I have to ask you about heat, because earlier we were having a conversation about heat adaptation, about how long does it take for the human body or athlete or typical person that's maybe exploring sauna, or things of that sort, to learn to be a better sweater.
我必须问你关于热的问题，因为早些时候我们正在讨论热适应，关于人体或运动员或可能正在探索桑拿或类似事物的普通人需要多长时间才能学会穿更好的毛衣。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It sounds like something none of us would want to do.
这听起来像是我们谁都不想做的事情。
We all want to stay cool, calm and collected.
我们都希望保持冷静、冷静和镇定。
But one of the reasons to deliberately expose oneself to heat is for things like growth hormone release, et cetera.
但故意让自己暴露在高温下的原因之一是为了释放生长激素等。
We talked about this, but a couple questions.
我们讨论了这个问题，但有几个问题。
One is heat exposure stress in the same way that the ice bath or cold exposure is stress?
一种是热暴露压力，就像冰浴或冷暴露是压力一样吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The second one, is there any difference there that's important?
第二个，有什么重要的区别吗？
And the other one is, how does one get better at heat adaptation?
另一个问题是，如何更好地适应热？
Or at least what are you doing with the fighters to get them better at dealing with heat?
或者至少你正在对战士们做些什么来让他们更好地应对高温？
How long does that take?
这需要多长时间？
So the first question, just because I threw three questions at you, is heat stress like cold is stress?
所以第一个问题，因为我向你提出了三个问题，热应激和冷应激一样都是应激吗？
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
Yeah, I think it is.
是的，我想是的。
And I think heat shock proteins, for example, are driven by that stressful exposure to a change in environment.
例如，我认为热休克蛋白是由环境变化带来的压力所驱动的。
So I think we do graded response in terms of heat-acclimation strategies.
所以我认为我们在热适应策略方面做了分级反应。
But yes, we've touched on it earlier in the conversation.
但是，是的，我们在早些时候的谈话中已经谈到过它。
For me, heat is still a stressor, and if it's managed incorrectly, you can have detrimental responses rather than beneficial responses.
对我来说，高温仍然是一种压力源，如果处理不当，你可能会产生有害的反应，而不是有益的反应。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So barring like hypothermia and death, I mean obviously, heat up the brain too much, people will have seizures and die; you'll lose neurons.
因此，除非体温过低和死亡，我的意思是，显然，大脑过度升温，人们会癫痫发作并死亡；你会失去神经元。
But what's the right way to acclimate heat?
但是适应热量的正确方法是什么？
Taking into account that people should check with their doctor, et cetera.
考虑到人们应该咨询医生等等。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We do all these disclaimers, but let's just say I want to get better at dealing with heat, or I want to extract more benefit from heat.
我们做了所有这些免责声明，但我们只是说我想更好地处理热量，或者我想从热量中获取更多好处。
I mean, how many minutes a day are people typically exposing themselves to heat?
我的意思是，人们通常每天将自己暴露在高温下多少分钟？
How often and over what periods of time?
多久一次以及在什么时间段内进行？
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
So we normally start with about 15 minutes of exposure.
所以我们通常从大约 15 分钟的曝光开始。
Now if someone's really lacking acclimation to heat, you can do that in three five-minute efforts.
现在，如果有人确实不适应炎热的天气，你可以通过三个五分钟的努力来做到这一点。
Do you know what I mean?
你知道我的意思吗？
And actually-
而实际上——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This hot sauna?
这热桑拿？
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
Yeah, hot sauna, take time to step out-
是的，热桑拿，花点时间出去——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
200 degrees or something Fahrenheit?
200 度还是华氏度？
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
Yeah, 200 Fahrenheit.
是的，200 华氏度。
And we try to work up to 30 to 40 minutes to 45 minutes in the sauna, continuous.
我们尝试在桑拿房中连续工作 30 至 40 分钟至 45 分钟。
Now we have to understand what's the advantage of heat acclimation for our athletes.
现在我们必须了解热适应对我们的运动员有什么好处。
Ultimately, their ability to sweat and to lose body fluids is going to be advantageous to their weight-cut process, their ability to make weight.
最终，他们出汗和流失体液的能力将有利于他们的减肥过程和增加体重的能力。
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
It is a technique that some of these guys adopt.
这是其中一些人采用的一种技术。
So if you don't have high sweat rates, it means you're going to have to sit in the sauna for longer and longer and longer to get the same delta in sweat release.
因此，如果您的出汗率不高，则意味着您必须在桑拿房中坐的时间越来越长，才能获得相同的出汗量。
So the more acclimated you are, the more your body is thermogenically adapted.
因此，您越适应，您的身体就越能适应产热。
The more sweat glands you have, there's more pause.
汗腺越多，停顿时间就越长。
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
You can sweat more and therefore you'll lose that fluid quicker, and you spend less time in the sauna.
您可以出更多汗，因此您会更快地流失水分，并且您在桑拿浴室中花费的时间也更少。
So that's why we do it, to try and promote and to limit the exposure.
这就是我们这样做的原因，尝试推广并限制曝光。
And it comes back to your first question.
这又回到了你的第一个问题。
Is it a stressor?
这是一个压力源吗？
Absolutely, it's a stressor if you've got to spend two hours over a four-hour period, two hours of it sat in a sauna because you-
当然，如果你必须在四小时内花两个小时，其中两个小时坐在桑拿房里，这就是一个压力源，因为你——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Where the phone doesn't work, so you can't divorce them from their phone and that's a stressor in itself.
当手机无法使用时，你就无法将他们与手机分开，这本身就是一个压力源。
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
I mean, yes, I think what we do is like anything, we build up in temperature, but we build up in volume of exposure.
我的意思是，是的，我认为我们所做的就像任何事情一样，我们增加了温度，但我们增加了暴露量。
So we start with 15 minutes and then we just try to add on and add on across a time.
所以我们从 15 分钟开始，然后我们尝试在一段时间内不断地增加。
And now for us, we kind of found about 14 in sauna exposures starts to really then drive the adaptations that we're looking for.
现在对我们来说，我们发现大约 14 次桑拿浴开始真正推动我们正在寻找的适应。
So it's not a quick fix.
所以这不是一个快速解决方案。
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
A heat acclimation strategy has to happen long before fight week or long before the fights.
热适应策略必须在比赛周前或比赛前很久进行。
This is a process that has to begin eight to 10 weeks before the fight so that we can actually get that adaptation and that tolerance to the stressor to exposure of heat.
这个过程必须在比赛前八到十周开始，这样我们才能真正适应并耐受高温带来的压力。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That is interesting.
这很有趣。
Until today, when we talked about this earlier and again now.
直到今天，当我们早些时候和现在再次谈论这个问题时。
I didn't realize, but it makes perfect sense now that I hear it, that heat adaptation is possible, that you basically can train the body to become better at cooling itself, which is what sweating is.
我没有意识到，但现在我听到它是完全有道理的，热适应是可能的，你基本上可以训练身体更好地自我冷却，这就是出汗。
I mean I should have known that before, but you know, don't see that in the textbooks.
我的意思是我之前就应该知道这一点，但是你知道，在教科书中没有看到这一点。
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
I mean listen, it's the same as the ketogenic conversation.
我的意思是听着，这和生酮对话是一样的。
You're training your body to be more metabolic efficient.
您正在训练您的身体以提高新陈代谢效率。
You're training your body to tolerate heat more.
您正在训练您的身体以更好地耐受热量。
You're training your body ...
你在锻炼身体...
The body is, as an organism, as an organic system, it's hugely adaptable, it's hugely plastic.
身体作为一个有机体，作为一个有机系统，它具有巨大的适应性，它具有巨大的可塑性。
But I think the skill is understanding the whens, the whys, and the where ofs, in terms of changing the overload, changing the stimulus to drive specific adaptation.
但我认为这项技能是理解何时、为何、何地，改变超载，改变刺激以推动特定的适应。
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
And philosophically how we go about our work here, we talk about adaptation-led programming.
从哲学上讲，我们如何在这里开展工作，我们谈论以适应为主导的编程。
Now adaptation-led programming fits into every single category, not just lifting weights or running track.
现在，以适应为主导的编程适合每个类别，而不仅仅是举重或跑步。
It fits into nutrition, it fits into sitting in a sauna, it fits into being in a cold bath or not.
它适合营养，适合坐在桑拿浴室，适合或不适合洗冷水澡。
It fits into so many different things because we're driven by scientific insights and that's how we really want to go about our business.
它适用于许多不同的事物，因为我们受到科学见解的驱动，这就是我们真正想要开展业务的方式。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I love it.
我喜欢它。
I love this concept of adaptation-led programming and doing that, not just in the context of throwing another plate on the bar, or something like that, but in every aspect of one's training and performance.
我喜欢这种以适应为主导的编程概念，并这样做，不仅仅是在酒吧上扔另一个盘子或类似的东西，而是在一个人的训练和表现的各个方面。
And I think there's a lot here that's applicable to the recreational athlete too.
我认为这里有很多内容也适用于休闲运动员。
Would you say that ...
你会说...
what comes to mind is 12 weeks.
我想到的是12周。
It feels like 12 weeks is a nice block of time for someone to try something in terms of ...
感觉 12 周对于某人来说是一个很好的时间来尝试一些东西......
To try something new, see how they adapt, and then maybe switch to something new.
尝试新事物，看看它们如何适应，然后也许会转向新事物。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I realize that it's very hard to throw a kind of pan time frame around something, but in terms of, if someone wanted to experiment with heat adaptation or experiment with cold adaptation or change up their training regimen or diet and look at metabolic efficiency.
我意识到，很难对某件事制定一个平移的时间框架，但就而言，如果有人想尝试热适应或冷适应或改变他们的训练方案或饮食并观察代谢效率。
Do you think 12 weeks is a good period of time to really give something a thorough go and gain an understanding of how or how poorly something works for oneself?
您认为 12 周是真正彻底尝试某件事并了解某件事对自己效果如何或有多差的好时期吗？
Or would you say eight is enough, or three?
或者你说八个就够了，还是三个？
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
I mean, that's the, "How long is a piece of string?" kind of response, right?
我的意思是，这就是“一根绳子有多长？”一种回应，对吗？
I mean, yes, if we're just talking arbitrary normal-
我的意思是，是的，如果我们只是谈论任意正常的-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Recreational experiment.
休闲实验。
Yeah.
是的。
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
Three months exposure, 12-week training strategy, 12-week intervention is more than adequate to say for 99% of things that change within the body that physiologically adapt to a training stimulus or an overload stimulus, you're going to start to see either regression or progression, beneficial or detrimental effects within three months.
三个月的暴露、12 周的训练策略、12 周的干预足以说明，对于在生理上适应训练刺激或超负荷刺激的体内 99% 的变化，您将在三个月内开始看到退化或进展、有益或有害的影响。
Absolutely.
绝对的。
I would say so.
我会这么说。
Now listen, I say that in as much as we do training blocks here that are three weeks long-
现在听着，我说我们在这里进行为期三周的训练-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So that's because of this constraint that sometimes people suddenly have to ...
因此，正是由于这种限制，有时人们突然不得不......
They get the call to fight?
他们接到战斗的电话了吗？
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
Correct.
正确。
Yeah.
是的。
So it's super condensed, and in that scenario, we're always conscious of, is their body or this individual ...
所以它是超级浓缩的，在那种情况下，我们总是意识到，是他们的身体还是这个人......
do they have the ability to tolerate that super overload, that super condensed exposure?
他们有能力忍受那种超负荷、超浓缩的暴露吗？
Now we might be doing that purposefully.
现在我们可能是有目的地这样做的。
We might be trying to do an overreaching strategy where we're really trying to damage or flex something, and I don't mean negatively damage, but we're trying to damage tissue to really get an active response versus more drawn out 12 weeks strategy, which is more coherent, more planned out, more structured in nature.
我们可能试图采取一种过度的策略，我们真的试图破坏或弯曲某些东西，我并不是指负面损害，而是我们试图破坏组织以真正获得积极的反应，而不是更持久的 12 周策略，后者本质上更连贯、更有计划性、更有结构性。
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
But for all your listeners, I would say 12 weeks to engage in a process of trying to change and adapt your body or expose yourself to something is more than sufficient to see if it's going to be the right approach for you.
但对于所有听众来说，我想说的是，花 12 周的时间来尝试改变和适应你的身体，或者让自己接触一些东西，足以看看它是否适合你。
And I think the individual interpretation always has to be considered.
我认为始终必须考虑个人的解释。
And I think that's where it comes back to be a thinking man's athlete or be a thinking man's trainer of someone that's going through exercise.
我认为这就是成为一个有思想的人的运动员或成为有思想的人的训练师的地方。
You have to consciously understand where your body's at in any moment in time.
你必须有意识地了解你的身体在任何时刻的位置。
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
You've got to be real with yourself.
你必须对自己诚实。
You create a journal, create a log of your training, create a log of your feelings, your subjective feedback of how you felt, your mood, your sleep, your-
你创建一本日记，创建你的训练日志，创建你的感受日志，你对你的感受的主观反馈，你的心情，你的睡眠，你的——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do your athletes do that?
你们的运动员这样做吗？
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
Yeah, we try to promote that, because again, that's part of this process.
是的，我们努力促进这一点，因为这也是这个过程的一部分。
Maybe 12 weeks for you, but I might get the same responses in eight weeks.
对你来说可能需要 12 周，但我可能会在 8 周内得到相同的答复。
And I think that's another critical theme here, is we could put 15 guys on the mats and give them the same workout, and there's going to be 15 different responses to that same workout because the human organism is so complex, and in nature that it's going to adapt differently.
我认为这是另一个关键主题，我们可以让 15 个人坐在垫子上，给他们进行相同的锻炼，而对相同的锻炼会有 15 种不同的反应，因为人体有机体是如此复杂，而且本质上它会以不同的方式适应。
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
Some people will tolerate it, some people are going to be challenged by it, some people have got a metabolic makeup that's going to promote it.
有些人会忍受它，有些人会受到它的挑战，有些人的新陈代谢结构会促进它。
Some people are metabolically challenged by it.
有些人的新陈代谢因此受到挑战。
There's just so many different things that we have to consider, and that's what we try to do here.
我们必须考虑很多不同的事情，这就是我们在这里尝试做的事情。
The cross we bear is that we try to understand on an individual level how to optimize athletic performance.
我们承受的十字架是我们试图在个人层面上了解如何优化运动表现。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think it's terrific and the athletes here are so fortunate to have this and most people out there ...
我认为这太棒了，这里的运动员和大多数人都非常幸运能拥有这个......
I've certainly been trying to encourage people to learn some science and some mechanism and become scientists of their own pursuits, whether or not skill learning or athletic pursuit, et cetera.
我当然一直在努力鼓励人们学习一些科学和一些机制，并成为自己追求的科学家，无论是技能学习还是运动追求等等。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
As a sort of a final question, what are some things about the UFC, or something about the UFC, that perhaps people don't know in terms of its overall mission or what you guys are trying to do here?
作为最后一个问题，关于 UFC 的一些事情，或者关于 UFC 的一些事情，人们可能不知道它的总体使命，或者你们在这里试图做什么？
I think I've become a fan of MMA, and I am more and more as time moves on.
我想我已经成为MMA的粉丝了，而且随着时间的推移我越来越喜欢。
Some people might be into MMA, some people not into watching MMA.
有些人可能喜欢 MMA，有些人不喜欢看 MMA。
But what are some things that UFC is interested in and doing that most people might not know about it and certainly, I might not know about?
但是 UFC 感兴趣并正在做的事情有哪些是大多数人可能不知道、当然我也可能不知道的？
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
Yeah, I mean, I think we try to be cutting edge.
是的，我的意思是，我认为我们努力走在前沿。
We try to be super progressive.
我们努力变得超级进步。
We think we've got an amazing platform here, particularly at the Performance Institute, to do some really cool things that can inform many different people.
我们认为我们在这里拥有一个令人惊叹的平台，特别是在表演学院，可以做一些非常酷的事情，可以为许多不同的人提供信息。
And that doesn't just mean the 600 or so athletes that are on our global roster.
这不仅仅意味着我们全球名册上的 600 名左右运动员。
What we're trying to do is influence global community around optimizing human performance.
我们正在努力做的是围绕优化人类绩效影响全球社区。
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
So at any moment in time, we're engaging in different technologies with different vendors, different partners, exploring opportunities to learn more, share data, understand what's the best mechanisms for interpreting your body, interpreting how your body's responding to training, interpreting your nutrition, or whatever it may be.
因此，在任何时候，我们都在与不同的供应商、不同的合作伙伴合作使用不同的技术，探索了解更多信息、共享数据、了解解释您的身体的最佳机制、解释您的身体对训练的反应、解释您的营养或其他任何内容的机会。
We get, we're in a really privileged position to do that.
我们知道，我们确实处于一个非常有利的位置来做到这一点。
But we've also, hence you've been here today, we're also trying to venture into some really cool areas of science and research that's got applicability that you can take from high performance athletes and apply to yourself, to Joe Blow walking down the street out there, that is really interesting.
但我们也，因此你们今天也来到了这里，我们也在尝试进入一些非常酷的科学和研究领域，这些领域具有适用性，您可以从高性能运动员那里获得这些适用性并应用到自己身上，适用于走在街上的乔·布洛（Joe Blow），这真的很有趣。
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
And that's everything from, whether it's CBD and psychedelics through to different technologies for thermal monitoring and Bluetooth heart rate monitoring, or whatever it may be, through to data management, et cetera.
这包括一切，无论是 CBD 和迷幻药，还是不同的热监测和蓝牙心率监测技术，或者无论是什么，再到数据管理等等。
And anything in between.
以及介于两者之间的任何东西。
We've got some great partners on the nutrition side, on the psychology side, on the data side.
我们在营养方面、心理学方面和数据方面都有一些很棒的合作伙伴。
And I think we always try to just push the envelope a little bit more.
我认为我们总是尝试进一步挑战极限。
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
I think we keep our core mission with our athletes, but I think a lot of what we do, hence your podcast, and an amazing platform.
我认为我们与运动员一起履行我们的核心使命，但我认为我们所做的很多事情，因此你的播客和一个令人惊叹的平台。
You do such a great job of it; that we can all learn and take from the elite and interpret how it might help us and just in the general population.
你做得非常好；我们都可以向精英学习和借鉴，并解释它如何帮助我们以及普通民众。
So I think that's our North Star, is to provide our athletes the best integrated service of care, but we also want to influence just the global community and put UFC at the forefront of that.
所以我认为这就是我们的北极星，为我们的运动员提供最好的综合护理服务，但我们也希望影响全球社区，并将 UFC 置于最前沿。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's great.
太好了。
Well, you guys are certainly doing it.
嗯，你们肯定在这么做。
We can't let the cat out of the bag just yet, but the things that we're gearing up to do with my laboratory and the work together.
我们现在还不能透露秘密，但我们正在准备与我的实验室和合作一起完成这些事情。
Hopefully we'll be able to talk about that and share that in the year to come.
希望我们能够在来年讨论并分享这一点。
But we're very excited about that.
但我们对此感到非常兴奋。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And Duncan, look, I have this filter that I use when I talk to people, academics or otherwise, which is some people, they open their mouth and it doesn't make much difference.
邓肯，你看，当我与人、学者或其他人交谈时，我会使用这个过滤器，有些人，他们张开嘴，并没有多大区别。
But when you speak, I learn so much.
但当你说话时，我学到了很多东西。
I'm going to take the protocols that I've heard about today, I'm going to think about how I'm training and how I could train differently and better, how I'm eating, how I could eat differently and better, for sake of performance and just in general.
我将采用我今天听到的协议，我将思考我如何训练以及如何以不同的方式更好地训练，我如何饮食，我如何以不同的方式饮食并且更好，为了表现和总体而言。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thank you so much for your time, your scientific expertise, the stuff you're doing in the practical realm.
非常感谢您的宝贵时间、您的科学专业知识以及您在实践领域所做的事情。
It's immense.
这是巨大的。
So hopefully we can do it again.
所以希望我们能再次做到这一点。
Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰奇：
Yes, thank you.
是的，谢谢。
This has been a blast.
这真是太棒了。
I appreciate it.
我很感激。
And yeah, keep doing what you're doing because I know there's a lot of people out there that love the platform.
是的，继续做你正在做的事情，因为我知道有很多人喜欢这个平台。
So thanks for the invite.
谢谢你的邀请。
It's been awesome.
太棒了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thank you.
谢谢你。
Thanks so much.
非常感谢。
Thank you for joining me for my conversation with Dr. Duncan French.
感谢您参加我与邓肯·弗伦奇博士的对话。
I hope you found it as insightful and informative as I did.
我希望您能像我一样发现它富有洞察力和信息。
If you're enjoying this podcast and/or learning from it, please subscribe to our YouTube channel.
如果您喜欢这个播客和/或从中学习，请订阅我们的 YouTube 频道。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Please also leave us a comment or a suggestion of a future topic or future guests that you'd like us to have on the Huberman Lab podcast.
还请给我们留下您希望我们在 Huberman 实验室播客上看到的未来主题或未来嘉宾的评论或建议。
In addition, please subscribe to our podcast on Apple and Spotify, and on Apple you can leave us up to a five-star review.
此外，请订阅我们在 Apple 和 Spotify 上的播客，在 Apple 上您可以给我们留下五星级的评论。
Please also check out the sponsors that we mentioned at the beginning of this episode.
另请查看我们在本集开头提到的赞助商。
That's a terrific way to support this podcast.
这是支持这个播客的好方法。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd also like to mention that if you're not already following us on Instagram at Huberman Lab, you might want to do so there.
我还想提一下，如果您还没有在 Huberman Lab 的 Instagram 上关注我们，您可能想在那里关注我们。
I do brief science tutorials and offer science-based protocols for all sorts of things that are often separate from the protocols and information covered on the Huberman Lab podcast.
我提供简短的科学教程，并为各种事物提供基于科学的协议，这些协议和信息通常与 Huberman 实验室播客中涵盖的协议和信息分开。
We're also on Twitter as Huberman Lab.
我们在 Twitter 上的名称也为 Huberman Lab。
And last and certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.
最后也是最重要的一点，感谢您对科学的兴趣。