Dr. Diego Bohórquez: The Science of Your Gut Sense & the Gut-Brain Axis

Please note that this transcript is not in its final form and will be edited.

请注意，本成绩单并非最终版本，将进行编辑。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.

欢迎来到休伯曼实验室播客，我们在这里讨论科学和基于科学的日常生活工具。

I'm Andrew Huberman and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.

我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。

My guest today is Dr. Diego Borque.

今天我的客人是迭戈·博尔克博士。

Dr. Diego Borque is a professor of medicine and neurobiology at Duke University.

迭戈·博克博士是杜克大学医学和神经生物学教授。

He did his training in gastrointestinal physiology and nutrition and later neuroscience, and by combining that unique training and expertise, he's considered a pioneer and leader in so-called gut sensing or the gut brain axis.

他接受了胃肠生理学和营养学以及后来的神经科学方面的培训，通过结合独特的培训和专业知识，他被认为是所谓的肠道感知或肠脑轴的先驱和领导者。

Now, when most people hear the words gut-brain axis, they immediately think of the so-called microbiome, which is extremely important, but that is not the topic of Dr. Borque expertise.

现在，当大多数人听到肠脑轴这个词时，他们立即想到所谓的微生物组，这是极其重要的，但这不是博克博士专业知识的主题。

Dr. Borque focuses on the actual sensing that occurs within one's gut, just as one would sense light with their eyes or sound waves with their ears for hearing.

博尔克博士专注于人的肠道内发生的实际感知，就像人用眼睛感知光或用耳朵感知声波一样。

Our gut contains receptors that respond to specific components of food, including amino acids, fats, sugars, and other aspects of food including temperature, acidity, and other micronutrients that are contained in food that give our gut the clear picture of what is happening at the level of the types and qualities of food that we ingest, and then communicate that below our conscious detection to our brain in order to drive specific patterns of thinking, emotion and behavior.

我们的肠道含有对食物的特定成分做出反应的受体，包括氨基酸、脂肪、糖和食物的其他方面，包括温度、酸度和食物中含有的其他微量营养素，这些受体使我们的肠道清楚地了解我们摄入的食物类型和质量水平上发生的情况，然后在我们有意识的检测下将其传达给我们的大脑，以驱动特定的思维、情绪和行为模式。

And of course, everybody has heard of our so-called gut sense or our ability to believe or feel certain things based on perceptions that are below or somehow different from conventional language.

当然，每个人都听说过我们所谓的直觉，或者我们基于低于或某种程度上不同于传统语言的感知来相信或感受某些事物的能力。

Today, Dr. Borque teaches us about all aspects of gut sensing, how it occurs at the level of specific neurons and neural circuits, how the brain responds to that, how specific foods and components of food impact not just our feeling of digestion or feeling good or bad about what we ate, but indeed how we feel overall, how safe we feel, how excited we feel, whether or not we feel depressed or sad, angry, or happy.

今天，博克博士向我们讲述肠道感知的各个方面，它如何在特定神经元和神经回路水平上发生，大脑如何对此做出反应，特定食物和食物成分如何影响我们的消化感觉或对所吃食物的感觉好坏，而且影响我们的整体感觉，我们的安全感如何，我们的兴奋程度，我们是否感到沮丧或悲伤，愤怒或快乐。

Today's discussion, I promise you, is unique among all discussions of neuroscience, at least that I've heard previously in that it combines two seemingly disparate fields, nutrition and neuroscience.

我向你们保证，今天的讨论在所有神经科学讨论中是独一无二的，至少我以前听说过，因为它结合了两个看似不同的领域：营养学和神经科学。

Indeed, today's discussion gets into how different foods and food combinations impact how we feel and what we crave and what we tend to avoid.

事实上，今天的讨论涉及不同的食物和食物组合如何影响我们的感觉以及我们渴望什么和我们倾向于避免什么。

We also get to hear the absolutely extraordinary story of Dr. Borches upbringing in the Amazon jungle and how his knowledge and intuition about plants has influenced his science and how the incredible science that his laboratory is doing relates to all of us and our ability to better tap into our gut sense.

我们还可以听到博尔什博士在亚马逊丛林中成长的绝对非凡的故事，以及他对植物的知识和直觉如何影响他的科学，以及他的实验室正在进行的令人难以置信的科学如何与我们所有人以及我们更好地利用我们的直觉的能力相关。

Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research walls at Stanford.

在开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究墙是分开的。

It is however part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science related tools to the general public.

然而，我的愿望和努力的一部分是向公众提供有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本消费者信息。

In keeping with that theme, I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast.

为了与这个主题保持一致，我要感谢今天播客的赞助商。

Our first sponsor is JoVE.

我们的第一个赞助商是 JoVE。

JoVE makes medical grade red light therapy devices.

JoVE 生产医疗级红光治疗设备。

Now, if there's one thing that I've consistently emphasized on this podcast, it's the incredible impact that light meaning photons can have on our mental health and physical health.

现在，如果我在这个播客中一直强调一件事，那就是光意义光子对我们的心理健康和身体健康产生的令人难以置信的影响。

Red and near infrared light has been shown to have profound effects on improving cell health, which can help with faster muscle recovery, boosting healthier skin, reducing pain and inflammation, enhancing sleep, and much more.

红光和近红外光已被证明对改善细胞健康具有深远的影响，有助于更快的肌肉恢复、促进更健康的皮肤、减少疼痛和炎症、增强睡眠等等。

What sets Juve apart is that it uses clinically effective wavelengths, emits a safe and effective dose of red and near infrared light, and most importantly, offers the only true medical grade red light panel available.

Juve 的与众不同之处在于，它使用临床有效的波长，发射安全有效剂量的红光和近红外光，最重要的是，提供唯一真正的医疗级红光面板。

I personally try to use the handheld juve Go unit as it's called every day and especially when I'm on the road traveling.

我个人尝试使用手持式 juve Go 设备，因为它每天都被称为，尤其是当我在路上旅行时。

If you'd like to try JoVE, you can go to jove.com/huberman.

如果您想尝试 JoVE，可以访问 jove.com/huberman。

That's JOO vv.com/huberman.

那是 JOO vv.com/huberman。

JoVE is offering an exclusive discount to Huberman Lab podcast listeners with up to $400 off jev products.

JoVE 为 Huberman Lab 播客听众提供高达 400 美元的 jev 产品独家折扣。

Again, that's jo.com/huberman.

再说一遍，这是 jo.com/huberman。

Today's episode is also brought to us by element.

今天的剧集也是元素给我们带来的。

Element is an electrolyte drink that has everything you need.

Element 是一种电解质饮料，拥有您所需的一切。

That means the electrolytes, sodium, magnesium, and potassium in the correct amounts and ratios and nothing you don't, which means no sugar.

这意味着电解质、钠、镁和钾的含量和比例正确，没有任何不合适的东西，这意味着没有糖。

Now, I and others on this podcast have talked about the critical importance of hydration for proper brain and body functioning.

现在，我和这个播客中的其他人讨论了水合作用对于大脑和身体正常功能的至关重要性。

Even a slight degree of dehydration can diminish cognitive and physical performance.

即使是轻微程度的脱水也会降低认知和身体表现。

It's also important that you get adequate electrolytes.

获得充足的电解质也很重要。

The electrolytes, sodium, magnesium, and potassium are critical for the functioning of all the cells in your body, especially your neurons, your nerve cells.

电解质、钠、镁和钾对于体内所有细胞的功能至关重要，尤其是神经元、神经细胞。

Drinking element dissolved in water makes it very easy to ensure that you're getting adequate hydration and adequate electrolytes.

饮用溶解在水中的元素可以很容易地确保您获得足够的水分和电解质。

To make sure I'm getting proper amounts of hydration and electrolytes, I dissolve one packet of element in about 16 to 32 ounces of water when I wake up in the morning and I drink that basically first thing in the morning.

为了确保我获得适量的水合作用和电解质，当我早上醒来时，我将一包元素溶解在大约 16 至 32 盎司的水中，并且我基本上早上第一件事就是喝它。

I'll also drink element dissolved in water during any kind of physical exercise I'm doing, especially in hot days when I'm sweating a lot, losing water and electrolytes.

我还会在进行任何体育锻炼时饮用溶解在水中的元素，尤其是在炎热的日子里，当我出汗很多、失去水分和电解质时。

They have a bunch of different great tasting flavors of element.

他们有一堆不同的美味元素。

My favorite is the watermelon, although I confess, I also like the raspberry and the citrus.

我最喜欢的是西瓜，虽然我承认，我也喜欢覆盆子和柑橘。

Basically, I like all the flavors and Element has also just released a new line of canned sparkling element.

基本上，我喜欢所有的口味，Element 也刚刚发布了一系列新的罐装起泡元素。

So these aren't the packets you dissolve in water.

所以这些不是溶解在水中的小包。

These are cans of element that you crack open like any other canned drink, like a soda, but you're getting your hydration and your electrolytes with no sugar.

这些是元素罐，您可以像其他罐装饮料（例如苏打水）一样将其打开，但您可以在不加糖的情况下补充水分和电解质。

If you'd like to try Element, you can go to drink element spelled LMN t.com/huberman to claim a free element sample pack with a purchase of any element drink mix.

如果您想尝试 Element，您可以前往“drink element”（拼写为 LMN t.com/huberman），购买任何 element 混合饮料即可领取免费的 element 样品包。

Again, that's drink element.com/huberman to claim a free sample pack.

再次强调，请访问 element.com/huberman 索取免费样品包。

Today's episode is also brought to us by Helix Sleep.

今天的节目也是由 Helix Sleep 为我们带来的。

Helix Sleep makes mattresses and pillows that are of the absolute highest quality.

Helix Sleep 生产绝对最高品质的床垫和枕头。

Now, I've spoken many times before on this and other podcasts about the fact that getting a great night's sleep is the foundation of mental health, physical health and performance.

现在，我之前已经在这个播客和其他播客中多次谈到这样一个事实：睡个好觉是心理健康、身体健康和表现的基础。

When we aren't doing that on a consistent basis, everything suffers and when we are sleeping well and enough, our mental health, physical health and performance in all endeavors improves markedly helix.

当我们不能始终如一地做到这一点时，一切都会受到影响，而当我们睡眠良好且充足时，我们的心理健康、身体健康和所有努力的表现都会显着改善。

Mattresses are different in that they are customized to your unique sleep needs.

床垫的不同之处在于它们是根据您独特的睡眠需求定制的。

So if you go to the Helix website, you take a brief two minute quiz and it asks you questions such as, do you sleep on your back, your side of your stomach, do you tend to run hot or cold during the night?

因此，如果您访问 Helix 网站，您会进行一个两分钟的简短测试，它会问您一些问题，例如，您是否仰睡、侧卧睡、您晚上会感到热还是冷？

Things of that sort.

诸如此类的事情。

Maybe you know the answers to those questions, maybe you don't.

也许您知道这些问题的答案，也许您不知道。

Either way, helix will match you to the ideal mattress for you.

无论哪种方式，Helix 都会为您匹配理想的床垫。

For me, that turned out to be the Dusk Mattress.

对我来说，这就是黄昏床垫。

I started sleeping on a dusk mattress about three and a half years ago, and it's been far and away the best sleep that I've ever had because it's customized to my unique sleep needs.

大约三年半前，我开始睡在黄昏床垫上，这无疑是我睡过的最好的睡眠，因为它是根据我独特的睡眠需求定制的。

So if you go to helix sleep.com/huberman and take that brief two minute quiz, you can figure out what mattress is ideal for your unique sleep needs for the remainder of this month.

因此，如果您访问 helix sleep.com/huberman 并进行两分钟的简短测验，您就可以找出哪种床垫最适合您本月剩余时间的独特睡眠需求。

May, 2024 Helix is giving up to 30% off mattresses and two free pillows as part of their Memorial Day offer.

2024 年 5 月，作为阵亡将士纪念日优惠的一部分，Helix 将提供高达 30% 的床垫折扣和两个免费枕头。

Simply go to helix sleep.com/huberman to get 30% off and two free pillows.

只需访问 helix sleep.com/huberman 即可享受 30% 折扣和两个免费枕头。

And now for my discussion with Dr. Diego Borque, Dr. Diego Borque,

现在我与迭戈博克博士进行讨论，迭戈博克博士，

Great to have you here.

很高兴你来到这里。

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

Thank you for having me, Andrew.

谢谢你邀请我，安德鲁。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I am super excited to learn from you today as I know everyone else is, and if they don't realize why soon they will, which is that you work on one of the more fascinating aspects of us, which is our gut, our gut sensing, the gut-brain axis, which I think most people don't realize is nearby, but separate from the so-called microbiome.

我非常高兴今天能向您学习，因为我知道其他人也是如此，如果他们没有意识到为什么很快他们就会意识到，那就是您正在研究我们更迷人的方面之一，那就是我们的肠道，我们的肠道感应，肠脑轴，我认为大多数人没有意识到它就在附近，但与所谓的微生物组分开。

So we're not talking about the microbiome, a very interesting and important topic of course, but we are going to talk about this thing that we call our gut sense and how it impacts everything from our cravings to our brain health and our cognition.

所以我们不是在谈论微生物组，这当然是一个非常有趣和重要的话题，但我们将讨论我们称之为肠道感觉的东西，以及它如何影响从我们的渴望到我们的大脑健康和我们的认知的一切。

So once again, welcome and I'll just want to kick things off by asking you to educate us, explain what is this gut brain axis that we hear about and what's going on in our gut besides digestion.

再次欢迎大家，我只想请您教育我们，解释一下我们听到的肠脑轴是什么，以及除了消化之外我们的肠道中还发生了什么。

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

Well, Andrew, thank you so much for having me here.

嗯，安德鲁，非常感谢你邀请我来到这里。

Thrilled to be here.

很高兴来到这里。

I knew that since we met a few years ago that we'll have this ongoing conversation and a great conversation.

我知道自从我们几年前见面以来，我们将会进行持续不断的对话，而且会是一次愉快的对话。

The gut and the brain, people call it an axis because traditionally thought to be an imaginary line that was connected through hormones.

肠道和大脑，人们称之为轴，因为传统上认为这是一条通过激素连接的假想线。

So since 1902 when the first hormone secretine was reported by Bailey and Sterling, it was known that when we eat then hormones, these molecules in the gut are released and then they will enter the bloodstream and then eventually will have a cause in distant organs.

因此，自从 1902 年 Bailey 和 Sterling 报道了第一个激素分泌素以来，人们就知道，当我们吃激素时，肠道中的这些分子就会被释放，然后它们会进入血液，最终会在远处的器官中产生作用。

And for the next hundred or so years, the field focus on the hormones.

在接下来的大约一百年里，该领域的焦点集中在激素上。

And as a consequence, there was no direct line of communication between the gut and the brain.

因此，肠道和大脑之间没有直接的沟通线路。

But as often I say, you don't say or we don't say the nose, brain axi or the eye brain axis, right?

但正如我经常说的，你不说或者我们不说鼻子、脑轴或眼脑轴，对吧？

And all of the organs are in sync working in sync.

所有的器官都同步工作。

So in the gut there are also some sensory cells that are able to detect the outside world and then quickly communicated that information to the brain.

因此，在肠道中也有一些感觉细胞能够感知外界，然后快速将信息传递给大脑。

And I say the outside world because the gut is the only organ that passes throughout our body, but it is still exposed to the outside.

我说外面的世界，因为肠道是我们身体唯一经过的器官，但它仍然暴露在外面。

If you think about it, if you will swallow a marble, it still has the chance to get out.

想想看，如果你吞下一颗弹珠，它仍然有机会出去。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Please don't do that anybody.

请任何人都不要这样做。

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

But is it still exposed to the surface?

但它仍然暴露在表面吗？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You're right.

你是对的。

I never thought about the gut as the organ that is in contact with the outside world, unlike our heart, which is not in direct contact with the outside worlds or our liver or our pancreas, but the gut is

我从来没有想过肠道是与外界接触的器官，不像我们的心脏，它不与外界或我们的肝脏或胰腺直接接触，但肠道是

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

The gut.

肠道。

And if you think about it, it is just separated by some compartments that have all of these valves, the gls, the gastro surface gel junction, the pylori, the IAL junction, the rectum.

如果你仔细想想，它只是被一些隔室隔开，这些隔室具有所有这些阀门，胃镜，胃表面凝胶连接处，幽门，IAL连接处，直肠。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So these are the sequences of valves of chambers with valves between them that food passes through air passes through, and within each, as I understand it, there are different functions related to digestion, but I think where you're taking us is that there are different modes of sensing what's coming through and signaling to the brain and other organs what's going on in the outside world by what's sensed coming through that passage.

这些是一系列的腔室阀门序列，它们之间有阀门，食物通过空气通过，在每个阀门内部，据我了解，有与消化相关的不同功能，但我认为你要带我们的是，有不同的模式来感知正在通过的东西，并向大脑和其他器官发出信号，通过通过该通道感知到的外部世界正在发生什么。

Is that correct?

这是正确的吗？

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

That's correct.

这是正确的。

And if we think about it, when we swallow something, literally we have to trust our gut.

如果我们想一想，当我们吞下一些东西时，我们实际上必须相信我们的直觉。

Perhaps that's why we use this phrase, trust your gut, because after that, there's not much that you can do at least in regular humans, that you can do consciously to expel something that perhaps is poisonous or toxic.

也许这就是我们使用这句话的原因，相信你的直觉，因为在那之后，至少对普通人来说，你无能为力，你可以有意识地排出一些可能有毒或有毒的东西。

It is the gut that has to make that distinction and then usually accommodate things for absorption or let them pass through digestion, and then ultimately they will be secreted.

肠道必须做出这种区分，然后通常会容纳物质以供吸收或让它们通过消化，然后最终它们会被分泌出来。

Right.

正确的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So if you could describe for us the architecture that is the cells that respond to things in the gut and where they send that information and how they send that information.

因此，如果您能为我们描述一下细胞的结构，即对肠道中的事物做出反应的细胞以及它们发送信息的位置以及发送信息的方式。

What is this thing that we call gut sensing made up of?

我们称之为肠道感应的东西是由什么组成的？

What's the parts list?

零件清单是什么？

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

So the parts list has been evolving recently and while some of the elements we have known for a while, but in general what we're talking about, because it is an external surface, it is lined by a single layer of cells that are called epithelial cells.

因此，零件清单最近一直在发展，虽然我们已经知道一些元素有一段时间了，但总的来说，我们所讨论的是，因为它是一个外表面，所以它由一层称为上皮细胞的细胞排列。

And essentially these cells are exposed to the outside world, but they also are attached in a little membrane and they are the ones that interface with the inside of the body.

本质上，这些细胞暴露于外界，但它们也附着在一层小膜中，并且它们是与身体内部接触的细胞。

So in the stomach we have an stratified epithelium, for instance, that is thicker so it can survive digestion, chemicals and other things like harsh environment.

例如，在胃中，我们有一层较厚的复层上皮，因此它可以在消化、化学物质和其他恶劣环境等条件下生存。

And in the intestine we have a little bit more of more delicate epithelial layer.

在肠道中，我们有更多更脆弱的上皮层。

And we think these epithelial layer, there are several different cell types, and one of those is the, so-called enteroendocrine cell, to put it in more simple terms, is a gut endocrine cell or a gut cell that releases hormones.

我们认为这些上皮层有几种不同的细胞类型，其中一种是所谓的肠内分泌细胞，更简单地说，是肠道内分泌细胞或释放激素的肠道细胞。

The term was coined in 1938 by a German physician.

该术语是由一位德国医生于 1938 年创造的。

His name was Frederick Fater.

他的名字叫弗雷德里克·法特。

And at that time it was a major advancement in our understanding of physiology because he came up with the idea that the organs were not only communicating to organs, in fact, there were cells within the organs that were communicating to other organs through the release of some of these endocrine factors, these neuromodulators or these neuropeptides that we know as hormones.

当时这是我们对生理学理解的重大进步，因为他提出了这样的想法：器官不仅与器官进行通信，事实上，器官内的细胞通过释放一些内分泌因子、神经调节剂或我们称为激素的神经肽与其他器官进行通信。

And so he named the diffuse endocrine system of the gut, and then he came up with this word enter endocrine cell.

于是他将弥漫性内分泌系统命名为肠道，然后他又想到了进入内分泌细胞这个词。

And these cells are these pairs at a ratio of roughly speaking like one to 1000 epithelial cells throughout the digestive tract.

这些细胞在整个消化道中的比例大致为 1 比 1000 个上皮细胞。

And we thought for the longest time that these cells were not connecting directly to the nervous system that they will release these neuromodulators and the neuromodulators through diffusion will act on receptors into some of the nerve terminals.

我们长期以来认为这些细胞并没有直接连接到神经系统，它们会释放这些神经调节剂，而神经调节剂通过扩散作用于某些神经末梢的受体。

And that is true, that is a very well established system.

确实如此，这是一个非常完善的系统。

But in 2015, we made an observation that some of these cells anywhere from one third to two thirds of these cells, it depends on the type of systems that you use to identify, they were contacting directly the nervous system.

但在 2015 年，我们观察到，其中有三分之一到三分之二的细胞，这取决于你用来识别的系统类型，它们直接接触神经系统。

And that brought up a new dimension of how it is that the gut could be communicating to the brain because as you know in the brain, the synapses are the ones that are most predominant.

这就提出了肠道如何与大脑进行交流的新维度，因为正如你所知，在大脑中，突触是最主要的。

However, there is a lot of neuromodulation from endocrine functions in the brain too.

然而，大脑中的内分泌功能也有很多神经调节作用。

So in the gut this was not well described.

所以在内心深处，这并没有得到很好的描述。

There had been historically a few examples that these cells may be make in synaptic context, but they had not been studied.

历史上曾有一些例子表明这些细胞可能是在突触环境中产生的，但尚未对其进行研究。

And perhaps one of the main reasons why they hadn't been studied is because the tools were not there.

也许没有对它们进行研究的主要原因之一是因为没有工具。

And if you recall in 1990s with the advancement of green fluorescence protein as one of the main molecules to attack cells, now all of a sudden there was a revolution in biology because you could identify the cells, you can take them out, you can do a transcriptomic analysis to see what genes they express.

如果你还记得 20 世纪 90 年代，随着绿色荧光蛋白成为攻击细胞的主要分子之一，现在生物学突然发生了一场革命，因为你可以识别细胞，可以将它们取出，可以进行转录组分析，看看它们表达什么基因。

You could co-culture them, you can modify their genome, and then you can start to interrogate what is their contribution to the entire body.

你可以共培养它们，你可以修改它们的基因组，然后你可以开始询问它们对整个身体的贡献是什么。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I'll just interrupt you for a second just to make sure that I and everyone else is on board.

我会打断您一下，以确保我和其他人都同意。

So if I understand correctly, it's long been known that there are cells that are in these layers of the got in the intestine, and it's long been appreciated that as food passes through these cells somehow can sense the chemical constituents of the food as it gets broken down and then release hormones into the bloodstream that could influence the brain.

因此，如果我理解正确的话，人们早就知道肠道的这些层中有细胞，而且人们很早就认识到，当食物通过这些细胞时，它们可以以某种方式感知食物分解时的化学成分，然后将激素释放到血液中，从而影响大脑。

Those hormones could travel and influence things far away.

这些激素可以传播并影响远处的事物。

In fact, for those that don't know, endocrine generally mean signaling at a distance between cells.

事实上，对于那些不知道的人来说，内分泌通常意味着细胞之间一定距离的信号传导。

So between gut and brain or gut and liver, it can also mean local effects.

因此，在肠道与大脑或肠道与肝脏之间，它也可能意味着局部效应。

So hormones, endocrine effects can also be local.

所以激素、内分泌的影响也可以是局部的。

But if I also understand you correctly, it was only about 15 years ago when you mentioned green fluorescent protein.

但如果我没理解错的话，你提到绿色荧光蛋白只是大约 15 年前。

We should probably just tell the tale in a few sentences.

我们也许应该用几句话来讲述这个故事。

This is an amazing story in biology where if you've ever seen fluorescent jellyfish, that's because they express a gene for so-called green fluorescent protein, and biologists have hijacked that gene sequence and put it into mice, and now actually other organisms as well, which allows you to see individual cells and cell types.

这是生物学中的一个令人惊奇的故事，如果你见过荧光水母，那是因为它们表达了所谓的绿色荧光蛋白的基因，生物学家劫持了该基因序列并将其放入小鼠体内，现在实际上也放入了其他生物体中，这使您可以看到单个细胞和细胞类型。

So these cells release hormones, the hormones influence the brain and other organs.

这些细胞会释放激素，这些激素会影响大脑和其他器官。

And now I think you're going to tell us that they also are able to make direct communication lines with other organs as well.

现在我想你会告诉我们，它们也能够与其他器官建立直接通讯线路。

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

Correct.

正确。

So maybe here it's fitting how it is that I got into starting studying the system.

所以也许我开始研究这个系统是合适的。

And as you know, between the nineties and the early two thousands, there was an explosion in tools to study the brain and neural circuitry and the connection of neurons and each one of the neurons, because up until the 1990s, the tools were limited electrophysiology behavior.

如您所知，在 20 世纪 90 年代到 2000 年代初期，研究大脑和神经回路以及神经元和每个神经元之间的连接的工具出现了爆炸式增长，因为直到 20 世纪 90 年代，这些工具还仅限于电生理学行为。

But then not only we had a green fluorescence protein, we had optogenetics, we had a rabies modified to be able to trace how it is the neurons connect at one synapse, which it was a dream.

但我们不仅有了绿色荧光蛋白，我们还拥有光遗传学，我们还对狂犬病进行了改造，使其能够追踪神经元如何在一个突触处连接，这简直是一个梦想。

I think that in fact, that was the dream of Francis Creek when he was at the S.

我认为事实上，这就是弗朗西斯·克里克在南加州大学时的梦想。

He talk about having the way to control,

他谈到有办法控制，

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

For those that don't know, Creek One was a to the Nobel Prize for the discovery of the structured DNA, but then later in his career developed an obsession for neuroscience.

也许有人不知道，Creek One 因发现结构化 DNA 而获得诺贝尔奖，但后来在他的职业生涯中对神经科学产生了痴迷。

And yeah, he daydreamed out loud about having tools to visualize individual connections in the nervous system.

是的，他大声梦想着拥有能够可视化神经系统中个体连接的工具。

And as Diego is pointing out, scientists have hijacked the rabies virus, which hops between neurons labeled the rabies virus with things that glow fluorescent.

正如迭戈所指出的，科学家们劫持了狂犬病病毒，它在用荧光物质标记狂犬病病毒的神经元之间跳跃。

And in doing so, we now understand a lot about what Crick dreamed for, which was the ability to see different specific connections in the nervous system.

通过这样做，我们现在对克里克的梦想有了很多了解，即能够看到神经系统中不同的特定联系。

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

Yes.

是的。

So then you could isolate the cells and then you could do sequencing technology to see what are the genes that these cells are expressing, and then you can start to understand the makeup of the cells.

然后你可以分离细胞，然后你可以使用测序技术来查看这些细胞表达的基因是什么，然后你就可以开始了解细胞的构成。

In 2009, Hans CL is a scientist in the Netherlands, the beautiful experiment.

2009年，荷兰科学家Hans CL进行了美丽的实验。

He discovered these factors that will trigger a receptor of the stem cells in the intestinal epi epithelium and will form literally a mini gut in a dish.

他发现这些因子将触发肠上皮细胞中干细胞的受体，并在培养皿中形成真正的迷你肠道。

These cells will be all lined up and then they will have lumen.

这些细胞将全部排列起来，然后它们就会有内腔。

And I remember seeing some of these papers coming out when I was a PhD student and I was already studying the gut.

我记得当我还是一名博士生时，我看到了其中一些论文的发表，当时我已经在研究肠道了。

So it was inspiring to see all of the things that all of a sudden you could do.

因此，突然间看到你可以做的所有事情是令人鼓舞的。

So when I began studying the cells immediately by isolating the cells and simply observing the cells in the native tissue of these mice models, it quickly became evident that some of the cells had a very peculiar anatomy.

因此，当我立即开始通过分离细胞并简单地观察这些小鼠模型的天然组织中的细胞来研究细胞时，很快就发现一些细胞具有非常奇特的解剖结构。

Some of them had this very prominent arms at the base, literally like in the Sistine Chapel atom, reaching out to gut with a hand, the cells will have that type of anatomical features and even ending with a little hand at the end of that arm.

其中一些细胞的底部有非常突出的手臂，就像西斯廷教堂的原子一样，用手伸向肠道，细胞将具有这种类型的解剖特征，甚至在手臂的末端有一只小手。

And obviously I immediately thought, why would a cell that it is supposed to react to food and release hormones into the bloodstream or just in the vicinity, will invest so much energy into developing an arm?

显然我立即想到，为什么一个应该对食物做出反应并将激素释放到血液中或附近的细胞会投入如此多的能量来发育手臂？

So then I started to look, well, perhaps it is because it's providing a breach directly into the vasculature, into the vessels to put the hormones into the bloodstream grown.

所以然后我开始寻找，嗯，也许是因为它提供了一个直接进入脉管系统的缺口，进入血管，将激素放入生长的血液中。

I couldn't find that direct connection.

我找不到那种直接联系。

So then I started to study, perhaps they were associated with the nervous system, and that's how we made some of the first observations that some of them with the arm or without the arm, they will have a more intimate relationship with nerve fibers.

所以后来我开始研究，也许它们与神经系统有关，这就是我们如何进行一些初步观察，其中一些有手臂或没有手臂，它们会与神经纤维有更密切的关系。

And that of course open up a bunch of new questions.

这当然会带来一系列新问题。

But the first thing that we had to do, it was to come up with a name for this foot and it kind of became organic.

但我们要做的第一件事就是给这只脚起一个名字，它就变得有机了。

And I want to highlight this because I think that as we go through the discovery trajectory, we don't realize the need to also engineer language, how we go about languages.

我想强调这一点，因为我认为，当我们经历发现轨迹时，我们没有意识到也需要设计语言，以及我们如何处理语言。

We start to attach words that we already knew and we start to put them together to describe something that new that we are observing.

我们开始附加我们已经知道的单词，并将它们组合在一起来描述我们正在观察的新事物。

And I say this because at the very beginning with my mentor, we will start to call these little feet first we call them axon, which is the term for the long extending branches of the neurons, the main branches of the neurons.

我这么说是因为一开始和我的导师一起，我们会开始称呼这些小脚，首先我们称它们为轴突，这是神经元的长延伸分支的术语，神经元的主要分支。

So we'll call them axon because they looked like a baby axon, but then we call them also like pseudopod because it was like a pod, but it was pseudo.

所以我们称它们为轴突，因为它们看起来像一个婴儿轴突，但我们也称它们为伪足，因为它就像一个豆荚，但它是伪的。

And at some point, and it was coming from some cells in the kidneys that they're called pod podia or something like that.

在某些时候，它来自肾脏中的一些细胞，它们被称为荚膜或类似的东西。

So it was axon like pseudo pod, like basal process to describe that it was on the base.

所以它是像轴突一样的伪豆荚，像基突一样描述它在基部上。

So at some point it became so long that we couldn't fit it in an abstract, it's

所以在某些时候它变得太长以至于我们无法用抽象的方式来概括它，它是

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

A bit of a mouthful.

有点拗口。

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

So we began thinking about it, and then eventually I came up with a term I thought like, ah, po.

所以我们开始思考这个问题，最后我想出了一个词，我想，啊，po。

And I remember pitching it to my mentor and he said, let me think about the weekend.

我记得我把这个想法告诉了我的导师，他说，让我想想这个周末。

And on a Monday he came in and he said, it has a ring to it, I think that we should use it.

星期一，他进来说，它很有用，我认为我们应该使用它。

But essentially the thought was that if these cells are contacting, then perhaps they are passing information directly onto the nervous system.

但本质上的想法是，如果这些细胞正在接触，那么它们也许正在将信息直接传递到神经系统。

And that is very different than just spewing neuromodulators in the vicinity and hoping that some of those catch the nervous system.

这与仅仅在附近喷射神经调节剂并希望其中一些神经系统受到影响是非常不同的。

And like I said, while that still exists, and I think that is just matter of space and time, they modulate these terminals in a different space and time, the hormones, but the transmission, the neuro transmission is directly and more precise in space and time.

正如我所说，虽然这种情况仍然存在，但我认为这只是空间和时间的问题，它们在不同的空间和时间、激素中调节这些终端，但传输、神经传输在空间和时间上是直接的、更精确的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Could I just interrupt for a moment please?

我可以打扰一下吗？

So hormone signaling, endocrine signaling generally is slower than the forms of communication directly between neurons could be on the order of seconds, but typically on the orders of minutes or hours, whereas neural communication on the order of milliseconds.

因此，激素信号传导、内分泌信号传导通常比神经元之间的直接通信形式慢，可能约为几秒，但通常约为几分钟或几小时，而神经通信约为毫秒。

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

Correct.

正确。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So if I understand correctly, these what you decide to call neuro pod cells, and thank you for shortening the name from the other description line, the gut.

所以，如果我理解正确的话，这些你决定称之为神经荚细胞，并且感谢你缩短了另一条描述线“肠道”的名称。

Are we talking about everything from esophagus down to the stomach to the intestine, or is it just at the level of the stomach and intestine?

我们谈论的是从食道到胃再到肠道的所有部分，还是仅仅在胃和肠道的层面？

Where do they exist?

它们存在于哪里？

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

So this is where the conversation becomes expansive because these neuro pods or causes of these neuro pods, so these neuro pods are simply a specialized epithelial cells, meaning that are electrically excitable that they can discharge electricity, but they are, these type of cells are in every single epithelial cell or epithelial layer of the body because that's how the body creates a representation of the world through sensor cells that are equipped to detect the outside world, meaning that they can be exposed to fluctuations in temperature fluctuations in pH fluctuations in concentrations, and then they quickly can generate a chemo electrical coat that they pass it on to the nervous system.

因此，这就是对话变得广泛的地方，因为这些神经豆荚或这些神经豆荚的原因，所以这些神经豆荚只是一种特殊的上皮细胞，这意味着它们可以被电兴奋，可以放电，但它们是，这些类型的细胞存在于身体的每个上皮细胞或上皮层中，因为这就是身体如何通过能够检测外界的传感器细胞创建世界的表示，这意味着它们可以暴露在温度波动、pH值波动的波动中。浓度，然后它们很快就能产生化学电层，并将其传递到神经系统。

And then ultimately the brain integrates that and says like, Ooh, my belly is feeling good, but I'm feeling cold in the skin.

然后最终大脑将其整合起来并说，哦，我的肚子感觉很好，但我感觉皮肤很冷。

And that is thanks to all of these epithelial cells that they are even in tasting so to speak, the cerebral spinal fluid inside of the spinal cord and the ventricles, they are inside of the inner ears, the taste, the taste pads.

这要归功于所有这些上皮细胞，它们甚至可以说是在品尝，脊髓和心室内部的脑脊髓液，它们在内耳内部，味道，味垫。

So it is, and in fact, there's a beautiful book from the seventies from some Japanese scientists, Fujita Canon ic, who called the cells para neurons.

确实如此，事实上，日本科学家 Fujita Canon ic 在七十年代出版了一本精美的书，他将这些细胞称为副神经元。

And their whole concept is that there was not such a discrete distinction between an entire neuron that lives inside of the brain or the central nervous system and a neuro epithelial or a neuroendocrine cell that leaves exposed to the outside simply that there is a continuum of adaptation.

他们的整个概念是，生活在大脑或中枢神经系统内部的整个神经元与暴露在外部的神经上皮或神经内分泌细胞之间并没有如此明显的区别，只是存在一个连续的适应过程。

So the organism can bring the information from outside, inside, into the body to be able to process it and then process it and then guide behavior.

因此，有机体可以将来自外部、内部的信息带入体内，以便能够处理它，然后处理它，然后指导行为。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So based on the way you describe it, we have these neuro pod cells that line our gut, and we also have these similar cell types in the other organs of the body.

因此，根据您描述的方式，我们的肠道内有这些神经荚细胞，并且在身体的其他器官中也有这些类似的细胞类型。

And these cells are responding to the chemical constituents of what we eat as the food is broken down also to the temperature of the environment to the pH.

当食物分解时，这些细胞会对我们所吃食物的化学成分做出反应，也会对环境温度和 pH 值做出反应。

That is how relatively basic or acidic something is that we ate and presumably to other features in our environment as well.

这就是我们吃的东西的相对碱性或酸性程度，大概也与我们环境中的其他特征有关。

And all of that information is activating these cells to some degree or another, and then we're releasing hormones into our body as a consequence.

所有这些信息都会在某种程度上激活这些细胞，然后我们就会向体内释放激素。

But also there's a direct line to the brain, and we're not necessarily aware of all of this happening.

但也有一条直接连接到大脑的线路，我们不一定知道所有这一切的发生。

I mean, until you describe it, I think most of us have not been aware that this is happening,

我的意思是，在你描述之前，我想我们大多数人都没有意识到这种情况正在发生，

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

And we probably shouldn't be aware, as I often say, if you and I are having a conversation, we probably shouldn't be aware of macrophage in the spleen that is chasing this bacterium that got inside of the lettuce that we swallow it at launch.

我们可能不应该意识到，正如我经常说的，如果你和我正在交谈，我们可能不应该意识到脾脏中的巨噬细胞正在追逐这种细菌，这种细菌进入了我们在发射时吞下的生菜内部。

You just do your thing so we can keep communicating except

你只管做你的事，这样我们就可以继续沟通，除了

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Maybe don't eat more of that lettuce, which is the That's right.

也许那个生菜就不要多吃了，这是对的。

Okay.

好的。

So you discovered these neuro pod cells.

所以你发现了这些神经荚细胞。

That's right.

这是正确的。

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

Or I describe them, you

或者我描述他们，你

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Describe them and you had in hand some tools to selectively label them.

描述它们，你就掌握了一些工具来选择性地标记它们。

What did that reveal about their connectivity with?

这揭示了他们之间的什么联系？

You're referring to it as the nervous system, which I love because a resounding theme on this podcast, as I always say, brain and spinal cord and all the connections to the body and back again is the nervous system.

你把它称为神经系统，我喜欢它，因为这个播客的一个响亮的主题，正如我常说的，大脑和脊髓以及与身体和身体的所有连接都是神经系统。

But what did you discover in terms of the connections with the brain proper?

但是你在与大脑本身的联系方面发现了什么？

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

Here is where the tools started to make a big difference.

这就是工具开始发挥巨大作用的地方。

All of a sudden you could see the resolution of a receptor inside of a cell using certain type of microscopes.

突然之间，您可以使用某种类型的显微镜看到细胞内受体的分辨率。

So I remember that one of the first questions that I will always get drill on how these laugh meetings can get intense.

所以我记得我总是要练习的第一个问题就是这些欢笑会议如何变得激烈。

When I would bring data and showing just very simple immunohistochemistry meaning labeling to see how the cells were interacting with the nervous system, then I will show some of the images.

当我带来数据并显示非常简单的免疫组织化学意味着标记以查看细胞如何与神经系统相互作用时，然后我将显示一些图像。

Then the other scientists will say, well, yeah, those are nice images, but remember that contact does not mean connection.

然后其他科学家会说，嗯，是的，这些都是不错的图像，但请记住，接触并不意味着联系。

And I went thinking about that at the very beginning.

我从一开始就考虑过这个问题。

I thought that it was silly semantics, but I specifically remember that there was one time I was running and I was thinking, how do you demonstrate connection between two cells?

我认为这是愚蠢的语义，但我特别记得有一次我在跑步时在想，如何展示两个细胞之间的联系？

And then I thought that since we had the ability to identify these cells by fluorescence, we could isolate them based on their fluorescence and what will happen if we put them in front of a sensory neuron and then just record them inside of a microscope over time.

然后我想，既然我们有能力通过荧光识别这些细胞，我们就可以根据它们的荧光来分离它们，以及如果我们将它们放在感觉神经元前面，然后随着时间的推移在显微镜内记录它们会发生什么。

And I thought maybe they will get close to each other and then we can go and do some more labeling and show that they are contacting or connecting.

我想也许他们会彼此接近，然后我们可以去做更多的标记并表明他们正在联系或联系。

But much to our surprise, we actually saw that in real time, when you isolate them from the mouse and you put them in a dish, they both look like these round circles, but after a few hours, not only they get close to each other, but they recapitulate the circuitry in the dish.

但令我们惊讶的是，我们实际上实时看到，当你将它们与鼠标分离并将它们放入培养皿中时，它们看起来都像这些圆形，但几个小时后，它们不仅彼此靠近，而且再现了培养皿中的电路。

Literally they form like two grains in a dish, the gut and the brain in a dish.

从字面上看，它们的形状就像盘子里的两粒谷物，盘子里的肠道和大脑。

Amazing.

惊人的。

And that was an eyeopener.

这真是令人大开眼界。

I still remember it was somewhere, I think it was like June 27th, 2012 when I saw that experiment because it opened my eyes to so many different things.

我仍然记得那是在某个地方，我想大概是 2012 年 6 月 27 日我看到那个实验的时候，因为它让我看到了很多不同的事情。

One, it was that these cells are not static because since we have been seeing them for decades just in slices or fixed tissue, we have lost the notion that this thing is constantly moving, right?

第一，这些细胞不是静态的，因为几十年来我们一直在切片或固定组织中看到它们，我们已经失去了这个东西在不断移动的概念，对吗？

The

的

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Cells are actually moving,

细胞实际上是在运动的，

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

The cells are actually moving.

细胞实际上是在移动的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So these cells line the gut, meaning they're along the walls of the gut and intestine,

所以这些细胞排列在肠道内，这意味着它们沿着肠道和肠壁，

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

The intestine,

肠道，

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

They reach a hand into the gut to sense whatever chemicals are there,

他们把手伸进肠道来感知那里的化学物质，

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

And they have little clia, little hair or microbially that is literally little hair that is exposed to the lumen.

它们几乎没有什么皮亚、很少的毛发或微生物，实际上就是暴露在管腔中的很少的毛发。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So the lumen folks is the cavity, the empty cavity of the gut, not empty, but the internal part.

所以管腔人家就是腔，肠子的空腔，不是空的，而是内部的部分。

And so they're sensing the chemicals there and you're saying they can move and they're sending a process.

所以他们感觉到那里的化学物质，你说他们可以移动并且他们正在发送一个过程。

By the way, folks, anytime you don't know whether or not something is a dendrite or an axon, just call it a process.

顺便说一句，朋友们，任何时候你不知道某物是树突还是轴突，就称它为过程。

You'll get it right.

你会做对的。

A process up to the brain

到达大脑的过程

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

Underneath that will connect to the nervous system.

在其下面将连接到神经系统。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I see.

我明白了。

So through a series of stations.

就这样经过一系列的站。

Yeah.

是的。

Okay, amazing.

好吧，太棒了。

So what we're talking about here is Diego's discovery of a pathway from the gut to the brain that essentially allows sensing of what's happening in the gut to inform feelings,

所以我们在这里讨论的是迭戈发现了一条从肠道到大脑的通路，它本质上允许感知肠道中发生的事情来传达感受，

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

Decisions.

决定。

That's correct, yeah.

这是正确的，是的。

So that was the first experiment showing in addition, right?

所以这是第一个实验显示了加法，对吗？

The next experiment was, well, does it happen in the mouse?

下一个实验是，这会发生在老鼠身上吗？

And then through a series of, I have a friend neuroscientist that she calls these rabies gymnastics because you have to put in some genes and make things work.

然后通过一系列，我有一位神经科学家朋友，她称这些为狂犬病体操，因为你必须放入一些基因并使事情发挥作用。

Then we demonstrated that these cells, that the virus will be capable of infecting these cells specifically instead of infecting the other epithelial cells, it will infect these new epithelial cells because rabies likes neurons.

然后我们证明这些细胞，病毒将能够特异性感染这些细胞，而不是感染其他上皮细胞，它会感染这些新的上皮细胞，因为狂犬病喜欢神经元。

And then it will jump from that cell into a nerve fiber.

然后它会从该细胞跳入神经纤维。

And these rabies can only jump one connection.

而这些狂犬病只能跳跃一个连接。

And what it was surprising is that the fluorescence from that rabies will show up in the brainstem and in the bodies of the cells that are in the no ganglia, which is this cluster where the cell bodies of the neurons of the vagus nerve are located right underneath the neck, meaning that there was just one stop between the surface of the intestine and the brainstem, the two cells were connecting that space.

令人惊讶的是，狂犬病发出的荧光会出现在脑干和无神经节的细胞体内，无神经节是迷走神经神经元细胞体位于颈部正下方的簇，这意味着肠道表面和脑干之间只有一站，这两个细胞连接着该空间。

So obviously the information that was an anatomical basis for the information to travel very rapidly up into the brain and rapidly in the subconscious, right?

很明显，这些信息是信息快速进入大脑并快速进入潜意识的解剖学基础，对吗？

We're not necessarily aware of it, although I've read that there are some instances in which people become more aware of it, either in atypical fashion or with meditation and other things that people can become aware.

我们不一定意识到这一点，尽管我读到，在某些情况下，人们会更加意识到这一点，要么以非典型的方式，要么通过冥想和其他人们可以意识到的事情。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yes, people definitely can become more aware of their so-called interoception, what's going at the level of their heartbeat frequency or their gut sensing if they spend time on it.

是的，如果人们花时间的话，他们肯定可以更加了解他们所谓的内感受，即他们的心跳频率或肠道感知的水平。

Some people, as you mentioned, develop an almost pathologic sense of interoception such that they have trouble navigating normal life because they're so aware of what's going on inside their body.

正如您所提到的，有些人会产生一种近乎病态的内感受，以至于他们在正常生活中遇到困难，因为他们太清楚自己体内发生的事情。

This is actually an interesting issue in the field of psychiatry.

这实际上是精神病学领域一个有趣的问题。

My colleagues in psychiatry at Stanford tell me that some people with a lot of anxiety, for instance, are so aware of their heartbeat that it becomes disruptive and distracting to them.

我在斯坦福大学精神病学领域的同事告诉我，例如，一些非常焦虑的人非常清楚自己的心跳，以至于心跳会扰乱他们并分散他们的注意力。

So it's not always the case that it's better to become more aware of your internal processing.

因此，更多地了解你的内部处理过程并不总是更好。

Sometimes it can be deleterious.

有时它可能是有害的。

Other times it can be good for us.

其他时候这对我们来说可能有好处。

Some people are very unaware of what's happening in their body, and they need to develop more awareness of that.

有些人非常不知道自己的身体正在发生什么，他们需要对此有更多的认识。

I feel like as long as we're talking about rabies, we should have a little bit of fun and explain to people something about rabies viruses, because what we've been talking about is the use of viruses as experimental tools in order to take a virus, basically attach or put something in so that whatever cell is infected by it glows a certain color so you can see the cells and visualize the circuitry.

我觉得只要我们在谈论狂犬病，我们就应该有一点乐趣，并向人们解释一些关于狂犬病病毒的事情，因为我们一直在谈论的是使用病毒作为实验工具来获取病毒，基本上是附加或放入一些东西，这样任何被它感染的细胞就会发出某种颜色，这样你就可以看到细胞并可视化电路。

But as long as we're talking about rabies, I feel like it's such a word that has such salience.

但只要我们谈论狂犬病，我就觉得这个词非常显着。

The rabies virus, which exists in nature is amazing because I don't know if it has a consciousness, but it essentially propagates between animals by way of the animals that have it bite, they become more aggressive, they bite a target animal, the virus gets in, it's picked up by the nerve terminals and is carried back from one cell to the next across synaptic connections, synapses that get little gaps between neurons.

自然界中存在的狂犬病病毒很神奇，因为我不知道它是否有意识，但它本质上是通过被它咬伤的动物在动物之间传播的，它们变得更具攻击性，它们咬伤目标动物，病毒进入，被神经末梢接收，并通过突触连接从一个细胞传回下一个细胞，突触在神经元之间的间隙很小。

And what Dr. Diego Burque has been telling us is that scientists have engineered the rabies virus so that it only jumps one station and then stops.

迭戈·伯克博士告诉我们的是，科学家们对狂犬病病毒进行了改造，使其只跳过一站，然后就停止了。

You can do this by modifying the coat protein.

您可以通过修改外壳蛋白来做到这一点。

There's a bunch of fun virology that can be done to do that.

有很多有趣的病毒学可以做到这一点。

But what I find amazing about rabies virus, and there's a great book by the way, called rabid, which is essentially a history of the study of rabies, is that once it travels from the site of the bite up to the brain, what does it do?

但我发现狂犬病病毒的神奇之处在于，一旦狂犬病病毒从咬伤部位传播到大脑，它会做什么？

It changes the brain to make the now infected animal or person more aggressive so that then they go bite somebody else.

它改变大脑，使现在被感染的动物或人更具攻击性，这样他们就会去咬别人。

So I mean, in some ways the viruses have a kind of unconscious genius to them.

所以我的意思是，在某些方面，病毒有一种无意识的天赋。

What's the best way to get from one animal to the next?

从一种动物转移到另一种动物的最佳方式是什么？

Well, there are a number of different ways, but one way is to just make that animal more aggressive so it goes and bites things

嗯，有很多不同的方法，但一种方法是让动物变得更具攻击性，这样它就会去咬东西

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

Wild.

狂野。

Make the animal work for you,

让动物为你工作，

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Make the animal work for you, right?

让动物为你工作，对吗？

It's almost exploitive, right?

这几乎是剥削性的，对吧？

It exploits a certain circuitry in the nervous system.

它利用神经系统中的某些电路。

I'd like to take a brief break and acknowledge our sponsor ag one.

我想短暂休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商。

By now, most of you have heard me tell my story about how I've been taking ag one once or twice a day every day since 2012.

到目前为止，你们中的大多数人都已经听过我讲述自 2012 年以来我如何每天服用一到两次 ag one 的故事。

And indeed that's true.

确实如此。

I started taking ag one, and I still take ag one once or twice a day because it gives me vitamins and minerals that I might not be getting enough of from whole foods that I eat as well as adaptogens and micronutrients.

我开始服用 ag one，现在我仍然每天服用一到两次，因为它为我提供了维生素和矿物质，而我可能无法从我吃的天然食物中获取足够的维生素和矿物质，以及适应原和微量营养素。

And those adaptogens and micronutrients are really critical because even though I strive to eat most of my foods from unprocessed or minimally processed whole foods, it's often hard to do so, especially when I'm traveling and especially when I'm busy.

这些适应原和微量营养素非常重要，因为尽管我努力吃未加工或最低限度加工的天然食品中的大部分食物，但通常很难做到这一点，尤其是当我在旅行时，尤其是当我很忙时。

So by drinking a packet of ag one in the morning, and oftentimes also again in the afternoon or evening, I'm ensuring that I'm getting everything I need.

因此，通过早上喝一包，并且经常在下午或晚上再喝一次，我可以确保我得到了我需要的一切。

I'm covering all of my foundational nutritional needs, and I like so many other people that take ag one regularly just report feeling better.

我满足了我所有的基本营养需求，而且我和很多其他定期服用 ag 的人一样，只是报告感觉更好了。

And that shouldn't be surprising because it supports gut health.

这并不奇怪，因为它支持肠道健康。

And of course, gut health supports immune system health and brain health, and it's supporting a ton of different cellular and organ processes that all interact with one another.

当然，肠道健康支持免疫系统健康和大脑健康，并且支持大量相互相互作用的不同细胞和器官过程。

So while certain supplements are really directed towards one specific outcome, like sleeping better or being more alert, AG one really is foundational nutritional support.

因此，虽然某些补充剂确实针对一种特定的结果，例如睡得更好或更加警觉，但 AG 确实是基础营养支持。

It's really designed to support all of the systems of your brain and body that relate to mental health and physical health.

它的真正目的是支持与心理健康和身体健康相关的大脑和身体的所有系统。

If you'd like to try ag one, you can go to drink ag one.com/huberman to claim a special offer.

如果您想尝试 ag one，可以前往 Drink ag one.com/huberman 申请特别优惠。

They'll give you five free travel packs with your order plus a year supply of vitamin D three K two.

您订购后，他们将赠送您 5 个免费旅行套装，外加一年的维生素 D 3 K 2 份。

Again, that's drink ag one.com/huberman.

再说一遍，这是 Drink ag one.com/huberman。

Okay, so you identified these, you said, described, but I'll say discovered that's what happened.

好吧，你确定了这些，你说，描述了，但我会说发现了，这就是发生的事情。

You discovered these cells, you label their connections.

你发现了这些细胞，你标记了它们的连接。

You see that there's just two stations between these cells or one station really between these cells and the brain.

你会看到这些细胞之间只有两个站，或者这些细胞和大脑之间实际上只有一个站。

And so now these cells can sense chemicals in the gut that are the consequence of the breakdown of food and send that information directly to the brain.

因此，现在这些细胞可以感知肠道中食物分解产生的化学物质，并将该信息直接发送到大脑。

What does the brain do with that information?

大脑如何处理这些信息？

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

So here comes the key experiment, and this was building obviously on the work of other scientists that had already described that the gut had some receptors for sugars, specifically for glucose, for other nutrients around this area.

所以关键的实验来了，这显然是建立在其他科学家的工作基础上的，他们已经描述了肠道有一些糖受体，特别是葡萄糖受体，以及该区域周围的其他营养物质受体。

In the early two thousands when we were starting to be able to identify some of these cells, then it quickly became obvious that these cells, these enteroendocrine cells throughout the lining of the stomach, intestine, colon, they had multiple receptors for multiple nutrients.

在两千年初期，当我们开始能够识别其中一些细胞时，很快就发现这些细胞，这些遍布胃、肠、结肠内壁的肠内分泌细胞，它们具有多种营养物质的多种受体。

Like we have the macronutrients, for instance, sugars, fats, proteins, but within them we have a repertoire of molecules, multiple lipids, multiple types of sugars, and so on and so forth.

就像我们有大量营养素一样，例如糖、脂肪、蛋白质，但在它们内部我们有一系列分子、多种脂质、多种类型的糖等等。

And these cells, depending on their location, they will express different types of receptors or a combination of those receptors.

这些细胞根据其位置的不同，会表达不同类型的受体或这些受体的组合。

And I say that depending on the location, because when we're eating, let's say an apple, the apple is going to be partially undigested by the time that it enters intestine, but by the time that it gets to the colon, most of those nutrients have being absorbed and perhaps only fibers are surviving to feed off most of the microbes that live in the colon.

我说这取决于位置，因为当我们吃苹果时，苹果在进入肠道时将部分未消化，但当它到达结肠时，大部分营养物质已被吸收，也许只有纤维能够存活下来以喂养结肠中的大多数微生物。

So the gut has evolved to mirror and to become a Velcro to the molecules that will be in that specific space.

因此，肠道已经进化为镜像并成为该特定空间中分子的尼龙搭扣。

So it will detect, so it detect sugars more in the proximal intestine, but fibers or fermented by products more in the distal intestine or in the colon, like short chain fatty acids, but rate propionate and so on and so forth.

所以它会检测，所以它在近端肠道中更多地检测糖，但在远端肠道或结肠中更多地检测纤维或发酵副产品，如短链脂肪酸，但丙酸等。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

What other kinds of nutrients do these pot cells detect from food?

这些盆细胞还从食物中检测到哪些其他营养物质？

So you mentioned sugars, you mentioned fermentation, presumably short and long chain fatty acids.

所以你提到了糖，你提到了发酵，大概是短链和长链脂肪酸。

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

Yes.

是的。

The short answer is that I think that in due time we are going to realize that they detect just about every single thing that we put on our mouths every day that they have some, either a specific receptor that is dedicated to it or a combination of receptors to be able to detect some of these compounds.

简而言之，我认为在适当的时候我们会意识到它们几乎可以检测到我们每天放在嘴里的每一件东西，它们有一些，要么是专门针对它的特定受体，要么是能够检测其中一些化合物的受体组合。

And not only the chemical compounds, but also an area that I think that is going to be fascinating in the future is the mechanical extens plus the adjustment in temperature as the time starts to flow from the mouth into the colon.

不仅是化合物，而且我认为未来会令人着迷的一个领域是机械延伸加上随着时间开始从口腔流入结肠而进行的温度调整。

For instance, I heard this from a bioengineer and not long ago, that was engineering artificial gut and a stomach, and he shared with me a piece of information that I was not aware of, that the sofa has to adjust the temperature of the food very rapidly within seconds into physiological temperature of the inside of the body.

例如，不久前，我从一位生物工程师那里听到了这样的话，那就是工程人造肠道和胃，他与我分享了一条我不知道的信息，即沙发必须在几秒钟内非常迅速地将食物的温度调节到身体内部的生理温度。

So if we are having hot coffee within a couple of seconds, it has to be at the physiological temperature of the body by the time that it gets into the stomach.

因此，如果我们在几秒钟内喝到热咖啡，那么当它进入胃时，它必须达到身体的生理温度。

And all of that happens in very rapidly in the S.

所有这一切在 S 地区都发生得非常快。

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So if I understand correctly, these neuro pod cells have a variety of different receptors depending on where they are located along the trajectory from the mouth to the rectum.

因此，如果我理解正确的话，这些神经荚细胞具有多种不同的受体，具体取决于它们沿着从口腔到直肠的轨迹的位置。

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

That's correct.

这是正确的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And some are sensing sugar, some are sensing temperature, some are sensing pH.

有些是感应糖分，有些是感应温度，有些是感应 pH 值。

So relative acidity, some are sensing amino acids presumably.

因此，相对酸度，一些人可能正在感知氨基酸。

I mean, I've heard it said, and I believe there's a researcher down in Australia who has been very bullish on the theory that we are not exclusively, but we are predominantly amino acid foraging machines because we need amino acids for all sorts of important biological processes.

我的意思是，我听说过，我相信澳大利亚有一位研究人员非常看好这样的理论，即我们不仅是氨基酸觅食机器，而且主要是氨基酸觅食机器，因为我们需要氨基酸来进行各种重要的生物过程。

And these cells are essentially evaluating how much sugar, how much leucine, how much short chain fatty acid, how much essential fatty acids of different kinds, and then making changes to the gut itself, but then presumably signaling that information elsewhere in the body.

这些细胞本质上是在评估有多少糖、多少亮氨酸、多少短链脂肪酸、多少不同种类的必需脂肪酸，然后对肠道本身进行改变，然后可能会向身体其他部位发出这些信息。

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

So here I'm going to give you something that will get your gut churning, so to speak.

所以在这里我要给你一些可以让你肠胃翻腾的东西，可以这么说。

So these cells have to make sense not only of the molecule that had been adjusted, meaning the chemistry of the molecule, let's say if it's glucose, it has to make sense a little bit of the taste.

因此，这些细胞不仅必须理解已调整的分子，这意味着分子的化学性质，比如说，如果是葡萄糖，它还必须理解一点味道。

Is it sweet?

甜吗？

Is it bitter?

苦吗？

Then it has to take into account how much of the molecule is absorbed inside of the cell.

然后必须考虑有多少分子被细胞内部吸收。

That's the second layer of integration.

这是集成的第二层。

Then once the cell has eaten that molecule, so to speak, then that molecule will be digested inside of the cell to release a TP or some other compound.

然后，一旦细胞吃掉了该分子，可以这么说，该分子就会在细胞内部被消化，释放出 TP 或其他化合物。

A TP is for energy, for instance, that has also have to be taken into account.

例如，TP 代表能源，这也必须考虑在内。

For instance, in glucose, glucose activates the TAs one or three, which is a sweet taste receptor.

例如，在葡萄糖中，葡萄糖会激活一或三个TA，这是一种甜味受体。

Then the glucose is absorbed by some of the sodium glucose transporters, which are active transporters, and this transporters depolarize the cell.

然后葡萄糖被一些钠葡萄糖转运蛋白吸收，这些转运蛋白是活性转运蛋白，并且这些转运蛋白使细胞去极化。

And then once glucose gets inside of the cell, glucose enters the TCA cycle is metabolized and then produces a TP.

然后，一旦葡萄糖进入细胞内部，葡萄糖就会进入TCA循环进行代谢，然后产生TP。

And the A TP farther activates another voltage gated channel, farther depolarize in the cell, and then the cell releases in turn a transmitter, for instance, glutamate that very rapidly tells the vagus nerve within milliseconds, I got sugar, and it tells it in two phases because that glutamate will activate two different type of receptors, ionotropic, which are very fast, and metabotropic, which are a little bit more delayed.

A TP进一步激活另一个电压门控通道，在细胞中进一步去极化，然后细胞依次释放一种递质，例如谷氨酸，它在几毫秒内非常迅速地告诉迷走神经，我得到了糖，它分两个阶段告诉它，因为谷氨酸会激活两种不同类型的受体，离子型受体，速度非常快，而代谢型受体，稍微延迟一点。

But then the metabolism of that glucose that produces the A TP and farther the polarizes the cell, we believe that it will cause the release of the hormone of the neuropeptide.

但随后葡萄糖的代谢会产生 A TP 并进一步使细胞极化，我们相信它将导致神经肽激素的释放。

So then the neuropeptide comes on top of that and gives you that full experience of what it means to consume sugar.

因此，神经肽就在此基础上，让您充分体验消耗糖的含义。

So that happens at the level of one cell and at the level of one molecule.

所以这发生在一个细胞水平和一个分子水平上。

So imagine all of the computation that the gut has to be making for each one of the molecules throughout the digestive tract.

因此，想象一下肠道必须对整个消化道中的每一种分子进行的所有计算。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So if I stand back from this picture, what I get is there are very interesting cell types that line our gut that are evaluating all of the not just macronutrients, proteins, fats and carbohydrates, but micronutrients within the food we eat as well as some of the other qualitative features, temperature for instance, maybe even quality of the amino acids or the sugars, simple versus complex sugars, et cetera.

因此，如果我从这张照片上退一步，我会得到的是，我们的肠道内有非常有趣的细胞类型，它们不仅评估大量营养素、蛋白质、脂肪和碳水化合物，还评估我们所吃食物中的微量营养素以及其他一些质量特征，例如温度，甚至可能是氨基酸或糖的质量、简单糖与复杂糖等。

If we could just further zoom out for a moment and take a human perspective on this at the level experience, I once heard you tell a story about someone you knew who changed their gut radically and that changed their entire perceptual experience of food, including certain cravings.

如果我们能进一步缩小视野，从人类的角度来看待这个问题，我曾经听你讲过一个故事，讲的是你认识的一个人彻底改变了他们的直觉，这改变了他们对食物的整个感知体验，包括某些渴望。

Would you mind sharing that story?

你介意分享那个故事吗？

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

Yes.

是的。

Thank you for bringing that story, Andrew.

谢谢你带来这个故事，安德鲁。

That story is very personal to me.

这个故事对我来说非常个人化。

I often say when I get on stage that we are constantly influenced by two things in life.

我经常说，当我登上舞台时，我们不断受到生活中两件事的影响。

The food that we eat and the people that we meet.

我们吃的食物和我们遇到的人。

Now we have known each other, but now we meet in person and we are knowing other people.

现在我们已经认识了，但现在我们亲自见面，我们正在认识其他人。

And I remember that when I was starting my PhD in nutrition at North Carolina State University.

我记得当我开始在北卡罗来纳州立大学攻读营养学博士学位时。

So I didn't grow up in the United States, I grew up in Ecuador, and I was invited to my first Thanksgiving celebration.

所以我不是在美国长大的，我是在厄瓜多尔长大的，我被邀请参加我的第一次感恩节庆祝活动。

So I sat at dinner and as we began chatting with the people that were next to each other, all of a sudden I was enthralled in this conversation of a woman telling me this story about her experience with gastric bypass surgery for treating obesity.

所以我坐在晚餐时，当我们开始与相邻的人聊天时，突然间，我被一位女士的谈话所吸引，她向我讲述了她通过胃绕道手术治疗肥胖的经历的故事。

So gastric bypass surgery was begun to be developed by surgeons in the sixties and by the nineties it had become a mainstream type of surgery for the treatment of chronic obesity.

因此胃绕道手术于六十年代开始被外科医生开发，到九十年代已成为治疗慢性肥胖症的主流手术类型。

So she told me that there were primarily three things that happened.

所以她告诉我主要发生了三件事。

She said, well, within six months of the surgery I had lost about 40% of body weight.

她说，手术后六个月内，我的体重减轻了约 40%。

She said I was about 300 pounds.

她说我大约有300磅。

You do the math.

你算一下。

So it was a

所以这是一个

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Significant

重大

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

Amount.

金额。

Yeah, significant amount.

是的，数额很大。

She said, we think one week of the surgery my diabetes was gone.

她说，我们认为手术一周后我的糖尿病就消失了。

She said, I did not need more insulin shots, so I had the same reaction that you're having.

她说，我不需要更多的胰岛素注射，所以我有和你一样的反应。

I was like, I don't know much about diabetes, but I know that it is a major health burden.

我当时想，我对糖尿病了解不多，但我知道这是一个重大的健康负担。

But the thing that really caught my eye was when she said, but since you're starting nutrition, I want you to answer this to me.

但真正引起我注意的是她说，但既然你开始营养，我希望你回答我这个问题。

She said, why is it that before the surgery I could not even look at Sony side app X?

她说，为什么手术前我连索尼端应用程序X都看不了？

She said, just looking at the yolk will make me queasy, but after the surgery, not only I can eat Sony side app X, I actually have a craving for the yolk.

她说，光是看着蛋黄就会恶心，但手术后，我不但能吃Sony side app X，我居然对蛋黄产生了渴望。

She said, every time we go on Saturday to a restaurant for breakfast, I will take the toast and I will actually clean the plate of the yolk.

她说，每次我们周六去餐厅吃早餐时，我都会拿着吐司，实际上我会把盘子里的蛋黄清理干净。

So how is it that rewiring the gut alter my perception of flavor, alter my cravings and my mind to get the yolk she said,

那么，重新连接肠道是如何改变我对味道的感知，改变我的渴望和我的想法以获得蛋黄的，她说，

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And even inverted her sense of what was aversive versus a competitive?

甚至颠倒了她对什么是厌恶与竞争的感觉？

And I guess for those of us that don't know, meaning me, I understand the gastric bypass surgery involves the removal of a portion of the gut.

我想对于我们这些不知道的人来说，也就是我，我知道胃绕道手术涉及切除一部分肠道。

How much gut tissue do they actually take?

他们实际上消耗了多少肠道组织？

Is it centimeters, inches?

是厘米、英寸吗？

The gut's a long distance.

肠子的距离很远。

So what do they do for gastric bypass?

那么他们在胃绕道手术中做了什么？

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

In simple terms, the most, the classic surgery is called ruin y, gastric bypass surgery, which involves a reduction of the stomach and shortcutting the connection of the stomach to the intestine.

简单来说，最经典的手术叫做毁坏y，胃绕道手术，它涉及缩小胃并缩短胃与肠道的连接。

So you'll cut one third, which will be the duodenum, one third of that will be cut, and then that portion will be reconnected to the stomach, meaning that you're short circuiting the gut.

因此，您将切掉三分之一，即十二指肠，其中的三分之一将被切掉，然后该部分将重新连接到胃，这意味着您正在使肠道短路。

And the whole idea was at the very beginning was like, well, if we reduce the surface that is exposed to food, then we can reduce body weight by the simply reduction of surface that is exposed to the food that is absorbed.

一开始的整个想法是，如果我们减少暴露于食物的表面，那么我们可以通过简单地减少暴露于被吸收食物的表面来减轻体重。

And what it became very clear is that well before the body weight changes got taken place, there was already some dramatic changes in physiology like the hormones, the neuropeptides that were released from the intestine in response to nutrients.

非常清楚的是，早在体重发生变化之前，生理学就已经发生了一些巨大的变化，比如激素、肠道响应营养物质而释放的神经肽。

It will change very rapidly.

它会改变得非常快。

Then as I mentioned, the food choices will change, diabetes will be resolved.

然后正如我提到的，食物选择将会改变，糖尿病将会得到解决。

So then it became obvious that it was not necessarily just the reduction in the surface of the gut.

所以很明显，这不一定只是肠道表面的减少。

So that's one of the main surgeries.

这是主要手术之一。

The other one, as I understand is vertical is leaf gastrectomy.

另一种，据我了解是垂直的，是叶胃切除术。

And this vertical is leaf gastrectomy is simply a reduction in the size of the stomach.

而这种垂直叶胃切除术，简单来说就是缩小胃的大小。

So it is now the stomach is very tiny, and the idea is that will accumulate less, it could haul less food, and then the food will go very rapidly into the intestine.

所以现在胃非常小，我们的想法是积累得更少，它可以拖拽更少的食物，然后食物会很快进入肠道。

And what is becoming very obvious is that there is a rapid change in the sensory function of the gastrointestinal tract.

非常明显的是，胃肠道的感觉功能发生了快速变化。

So the gut seems to rapidly shift, perhaps become more so to speak in general terms, more sensitive to the presence of nutrients.

因此，肠道似乎正在迅速发生变化，一般来说，也许变得更加敏感，对营养物质的存在更加敏感。

Right.

正确的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Interesting.

有趣。

So this woman that you met at Thanksgiving had gastric bypass surgery, and presumably I think it's fair to assume a good number of these pot cells that sense different nutrients were removed, and as a consequence, she completely shifted her craving of a particular food.

所以你在感恩节遇到的这位女士接受了胃绕道手术，大概我认为可以公平地假设大量感知不同营养物质的罐细胞被去除，因此，她完全改变了对某种特定食物的渴望。

And is there any sense whether or not, no pun intended, the lack of sensing of what was in sunnyside egg yolks was somehow related to a shift in appetite or something else?

没有任何双关语的意思，对阳光蛋黄中的成分缺乏感知是否与食欲的变化或其他什么有关？

Or is it merely a qualitative, albeit a dramatic qualitative shift in what she craved?

或者这只是她所渴望的东西的一种质的转变，尽管是一种戏剧性的质的转变？

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

So two contextual pieces of information.

这是两条上下文信息。

So I remember leaving that dinner and I was like, whoa, this is major.

所以我记得离开那顿晚餐时我就想，哇，这很重要。

I am sure that people have written about this or done research.

我确信人们已经写过相关文章或做过研究。

And I realized that it was very little was known.

我意识到人们对此知之甚少。

Even gastroenterologists knew very little about this.

甚至胃肠病学家对此也知之甚少。

The first clinical report that the alteration in food choices was common in these patients came out I believe in 2011.

我相信第一份临床报告发布于 2011 年，表明食物选择的改变在这些患者中很常见。

And then later on, a scientist replicated that even in rats or in mice, we have done it in the laboratory and consistently they change their food preferences, their food choices.

后来，一位科学家重复说，即使是在大鼠或小鼠身上，我们也在实验室里做到了这一点，并且它们不断地改变他们的食物偏好和食物选择。

So in recent years, we have been studying that system.

所以近年来我们一直在研究这个系统。

And I'll tell you that in 2022, this is another important contextual piece that we have not gotten to it.

我会告诉你，到 2022 年，这是我们尚未了解的另一个重要的背景内容。

So after we found, and we described that the cells were connecting to the nervous system and that they were sending information up to the brain very rapidly, the challenge was, well, if this is a sense, what behavior is affecting, how is it that is affecting the responses of the organism?

因此，在我们发现并描述细胞与神经系统相连并且它们非常快速地向大脑发送信息之后，挑战是，如果这是一种感觉，那么什么行为正在影响，它是如何影响有机体的反应的？

And that took a little bit of a technical hurdle, and here is where optogenetics comes in.

这需要一点技术障碍，这就是光遗传学的用武之地。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah, please explain for people what optogenetics is in at least at a top contour level.

是的，请向人们解释一下光遗传学至少在顶层轮廓水平上的含义。

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

So optogenetics in 2005, professor Carl Dero, er, Boyden and other scientists had been able to make this dream of an experiment, which he was isolated, the genes that encode for these opsin that are sensitive to specific wavelengths of light and put them into neurons.

所以光遗传学在2005年，卡尔·德罗教授，呃，博伊登和其他科学家已经能够实现这个实验的梦想，他分离出了编码这些对特定波长的光敏感的视蛋白的基因，并将它们放入神经元中。

And now by turning that light, they could make the neuron activate.

现在，通过打开灯，他们可以激活神经元。

And then ultimately then later on they went on to describe that that could be used to control a specific cells that are regulating behavior and then by that define what cells are orchestrating certain type of behaviors like movement, food intake, thirst, anxiety, so on and so forth.

最后，他们接着描述了可以用来控制调节行为的特定细胞，然后通过它定义哪些细胞正在协调某些类型的行为，如运动、食物摄入、口渴、焦虑等等。

So in 2014, we began trying to adapt that technology to the gut.

因此，2014 年，我们开始尝试将该技术应用于肠道。

And very quickly we realized that the way that light was brought into the brain was through a fiber optic cable that was rigid.

很快我们就意识到光进入大脑的方式是通过一根刚性的光缆。

And in the brain it helps that it's actually rigid, but in the gut it doesn't help because the gut is constantly moving and so on and so forth.

在大脑中，它实际上是刚性的，这有帮助，但在肠道中，这没有帮助，因为肠道在不断移动等等。

So it's not compatible for running those experiments.

所以它不兼容运行这些实验。

And here's where I usually say, we really don't know what is going on because some forces move around us.

这就是我通常说的，我们真的不知道发生了什么，因为有些力量在我们周围移动。

And in 2017, professor Paul, Eva from MIT came to give a talk at Duke and she reached out to me and literally she came.

2017 年，麻省理工学院的保罗·伊娃教授来杜克大学发表演讲，她联系了我，她确实来了。

And as we were chatting, she said, Diego, I see that you're working between in this interface of the gut and the brain, and I have this fiber year optic that is flexible.

当我们聊天时，她说，迭戈，我看到你在肠道和大脑的界面之间工作，我有这个灵活的光纤年光学器件。

Will you have any use for it?

你会用它吗？

So with that fiber optic, that made a big difference to study, interrogate the function of these cells to behavior.

因此，有了光纤，这对研究、询问这些细胞的功能和行为产生了很大的影响。

So when we were able to put those options, the light sensitive proteins inside of these neuro pods, and now when we turn the light on to shut off the cells very rapidly, we found something very interesting.

因此，当我们能够将这些选项，即这些神经荚内部的光敏蛋白，现在当我们打开灯以非常快速地关闭细胞时，我们发现了一些非常有趣的东西。

So normally animals, when you give them the choice between a sweetener, which is the void of caloric value,

所以通常情况下，当你让动物在甜味剂（没有热量值）之间做出选择时，

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So like a aspartame or Splenda or stevia or something,

就像阿斯巴甜、 Splenda 或甜叶菊之类的，

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

And you give them sugar, table sugar, the animal invariably will go to sugar.

如果你给它们糖，食糖，动物总是会吃糖。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

They prefer sugar.

他们更喜欢糖。

They

他们

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

Prefer sugar.

更喜欢糖。

If they have never seen sugar, it will take them a little bit more time, but regularly by the second day is within 90 seconds that they detect what is sugar.

如果他们从未见过糖，他们会花费更多的时间，但通常到第二天，他们就会在 90 秒内检测到什么是糖。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So they're drinking out of one tube, they get some water with stevia, they drink out of another tube water with sugar, and they invariably prefer the water with sugar.

所以他们用一根管子喝水，他们喝一些含甜叶菊的水，用另一根管子喝加糖的水，他们总是更喜欢加糖的水。

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

That's correct.

这是正确的。

And people have described this phenomenon for a while.

人们描述这种现象已经有一段时间了。

And in fact in 2007, there was an elegant experiment done by Professor Ivan de at Duke University in which the sweet taste receptors were, all the taste receptors were genetically erased and the animals were not capable of distinguishing the sweetener from the water, but they could still distinguish sugar from water, meaning that there was something else that was detecting the sugar.

事实上，在2007年，杜克大学的伊万德教授做了一个巧妙的实验，其中甜味受体，所有的味觉受体都被基因删除，动物无法区分甜味剂和水，但它们仍然可以区分糖和水，这意味着有其他东西在检测糖。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So just to make sure people are on board, an experiment where sensing of sweet taste at the level of the mouth is eliminated does not disrupt the preference for sugar water.

因此，为了确保人们同意，一项消除口腔甜味感觉的实验不会破坏人们对糖水的偏好。

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

Correct.

正确。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Which means that there's something going on below the depth of consciousness that causes mammals, presumably us included, to prefer things that have sugar.

这意味着在意识深处正在发生一些事情，导致哺乳动物（大概也包括我们）更喜欢含糖的东西。

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

Yes.

是的。

And then Professor Tony Sclafani, he had been studying these behaviors and he went in so far to suggest that perhaps these sodium glucose transporters are some of the ones that are detecting the sugar as it enters intestine.

然后托尼·斯克拉法尼教授，他一直在研究这些行为，到目前为止他认为这些钠葡萄糖转运蛋白可能是在糖进入肠道时检测糖的一些转运蛋白。

And that's what is causing the behavior.

这就是导致这种行为的原因。

So we began working on the system.

所以我们开始研究这个系统。

We wonder could these cells be the ones that are guiding that behavior?

我们想知道这些细胞是否是引导这种行为的细胞？

And around the time that we published this work, professor Charles Zucker at Columbia, also farther advanced that area by building on the previous work and demonstrated that there were a population of neurons in the brainstem that were integrating this information from the gut.

在我们发表这项研究的时候，哥伦比亚大学的 Charles Zucker 教授也在之前的研究基础上进一步推进了这一领域，并证明脑干中有一群神经元正在整合来自肠道的信息。

And by that, the gut and the brain were guiding this behavior.

由此，肠道和大脑正在引导这种行为。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And it is true that from the earliest of ages, we crave sugar, or at least if we are exposed to the taste of sugar, it tends to drive seeking of more sugar.

确实，从很小的时候起，我们就渴望糖，或者至少如果我们接触到糖的味道，它往往会促使我们寻求更多的糖。

I mean, you can see that in babies even.

我的意思是，你甚至可以在婴儿身上看到这一点。

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

Correct.

正确。

And as I usually say, I call it instinctively because our mother doesn't have to teach us a Diego.

正如我通常所说，我本能地称之为，因为我们的母亲不必教我们迭戈。

That is glucose.

那就是葡萄糖。

It may present us in some ways, but at the end of the day, I have to go and get my glucose, get my amino acids right?

它可能以某些方式呈现给我们，但在一天结束时，我必须去获取我的葡萄糖，获取我的氨基酸，对吗？

Because eating is very simple.

因为吃饭很简单。

We are just trying to solve this issue of getting our carbons, getting our nitrogen, getting our phosphorus, our potassium, our sodium, and our chloride in so many different ways, shape or forms.

我们只是想解决这个问题，以多种不同的方式、形状或形式获取碳、氮、磷、钾、钠和氯化物。

So I went back to the experiment, the key experiment.

所以我回到了实验，关键的实验。

So when we were able to put these options and bring the light and shut off these cells very rapidly, when we had presented the animal with a choice of sweetener over sugar, then all of a sudden the animal became blind to the solutions.

因此，当我们能够提供这些选项并非常快速地打开光并关闭这些细胞时，当我们向动物提供甜味剂而不是糖的选择时，动物突然对解决方案变得视而不见。

It couldn't discern between the stevia so to speak, or the sweetener from the actual sugar

它无法区分甜叶菊或甜味剂与实际的糖

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And the entire manipulation.

以及整个操纵。

The experimental manipulation that is occurring at the level of the gut,

发生在肠道水平的实验操作，

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

The intestine that's right after the stomach.

肠就在胃的后面。

It's like just a small portion of the intestine.

它就像肠道的一小部分。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So if we make an attempt to transfer this to the human real world experience, if I have some ice cream, it tastes sweet.

因此，如果我们尝试将其转移到人类现实世界的体验中，如果我有一些冰淇淋，它尝起来是甜的。

I like it.

我喜欢它。

And now I'm thinking about it and I'm craving it just a little bit.

现在我想起来了，我有点渴望它。

I don't have a huge craving for sweets, but I do like some of them.

我对甜食没有太大的渴望，但我确实喜欢其中的一些。

So eating ice cream, it tastes sweet.

所以吃冰淇淋，味道是甜的。

The tendency is to crave more.

趋势是渴望更多。

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

That's

那是

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Correct.

正确。

You have to eat a lot of ice cream before you're truly full.

你必须吃很多冰淇淋才能真正吃饱。

And most people self-regulate or their parents regulate for them by limiting the number of scoops or something.

大多数人会自我调节，或者他们的父母会通过限制勺子的数量或其他方式来为他们进行调节。

And that sweet taste is part of the motivator.

那种甜味是动力的一部分。

But what you're saying is that as the ice cream enters the gut, there are neuro pod cells there that are also sensing the sugar and signaling to the brain, and the brain is responding to pursue more of that sweet containing substance.

但你的意思是，当冰淇淋进入肠道时，那里的神经荚细胞也会感知糖并向大脑发出信号，而大脑会做出反应以追求更多含有甜味的物质。

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

That's

那是

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Correct.

正确。

And it's happening below our awareness.

它发生在我们的意识之下。

It is independent from the sweet taste of the ice cream.

它与冰淇淋的甜味无关。

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

Correct.

正确。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

The conscious sweet

有意识的甜蜜

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

Taste, the conscious sweet taste, which if you think about it, it's not fully conscious, right?

味道，有意识的甜味，如果你仔细想想，它并不是完全有意识的，对吧？

As what we detect of the world.

正如我们所发现的世界。

It's just a very tiny little portion, even sight.

这只是很小的一部分，甚至是视线。

We think we are looking for light, but I don't know what is happening behind my back.

我们以为我们在寻找光明，但我不知道背后发生了什么。

I trust that everything is going.

我相信一切都会顺利。

So when we shut off these cells, the animal and as I usually say, became blind to the sugars because it's kind of like akin to having turn off the cells that are able to detect light, the wavelength of light for us to be able to discern color.

因此，当我们关闭这些细胞时，正如我通常所说，动物对糖变得盲目，因为这有点类似于关闭能够检测光的细胞，光的波长使我们能够辨别颜色。

And it's not that the animal is losing its memory because then if you remove the light and now the cells are functional again, then the animal again is able to distinguish one solution over the other.

这并不是说动物正在失去记忆，因为如果你去掉光，现在细胞又恢复了功能，那么动物又能够区分一种溶液和另一种溶液。

And then we did a couple more experiments in there.

然后我们在那里做了更多实验。

And what happens, we do the reverse and we turn on the cells now.

接下来会发生什么，我们做相反的事情，现在打开细胞。

And the fascinating thing is that when we turn on the cells, now the mouse will eat the sweetener as if it will be sugar.

令人着迷的是，当我们打开细胞时，老鼠会像吃糖一样吃甜味剂。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Interesting.

有趣。

So the activation of these cells makes the crave non caloric sweetener or low calorie sweetener as if it were sugar.

因此，这些细胞的激活使得人们渴望无热量甜味剂或低热量甜味剂，就好像它是糖一样。

But is it blinding them to the difference between sugar and low calorie sweetener?

但这是否让他们看不到糖和低热量甜味剂之间的区别？

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

So here's another piece of information.

这是另一条信息。

If we'll offer them water and we'll turn on the cells, the animal will drink the water as if it will be sugar, like it will be appetizing

如果我们给它们提供水并打开细胞，动物就会像喝糖一样喝水，就像喝水会开胃一样

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Even though it's just plain water.

虽然只是白开水。

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

Yes.

是的。

And what is becoming very obvious is that the gut has this sense at the most basic level.

非常明显的是，肠道在最基本的层面上具有这种感觉。

What the senses are doing is calculating a couple of things.

感官所做的就是计算一些事情。

One is in the salience of the stimulus is like how intense is the stimulus?

一是刺激的显着性，比如刺激的强度有多大？

And the other one is the valence of the stimulus is a pleasurable or painful, so to speak.

另一个是刺激的效价是愉快的还是痛苦的，可以这么说。

In broad terms, and I say this because on the pain side, professor David Julius, professor Holly Ingram, Jim, by at UCSF, they have done some beautiful work demonstrating that there are these serotonin releasing cells specifically in the colon.

从广义上讲，我这样说是因为在疼痛方面，加州大学旧金山分校的大卫·朱利叶斯教授、霍利·英格拉姆教授、吉姆教授做了一些出色的工作，证明结肠中存在这些专门释放血清素的细胞。

They have focused in the colon that they coupled to nerve fibers of the spinal cord.

他们将注意力集中在与脊髓神经纤维连接的结肠上。

And when they are activated, now all of a sudden they drive what we call in the clinical realm visceral hypersensitivity.

当它们被激活时，它们会突然导致我们在临床领域所说的内脏过敏。

So they are responsible for triggering the hypersensitivity of the nerve fibers, the colonic nerve fibers, because they detect noxious stimuli, and then ultimately they gate that noxious stimuli and pass it on to the nerve fiber in broad terms as painful stimulus.

因此，它们负责触发神经纤维、结肠神经纤维的超敏性，因为它们检测到有害刺激，然后最终它们控制有害刺激并将其作为疼痛刺激广义地传递到神经纤维。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So is this irritable bowel syndrome?

那么这是肠易激综合症吗？

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

It is.

是的。

We could call it as the biological basis of what could degenerate into irritable bowel syndrome and so on and so forth, or these chronicle gi, they call them disorders of gut-brain interactions in the clinic.

我们可以将其称为可能退化为肠易激综合症等疾病的生物学基础，或者这些慢性胃肠病，他们在临床上称之为肠脑相互作用障碍。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I'd like to take a brief break and acknowledge our sponsor Inside Tracker.

我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商 Inside Tracker。

Inside Tracker is a personalized nutrition platform that analyzes data from your blood and DNA to help you better meet your personal health goals.

Inside Tracker 是一个个性化营养平台，可分析您的血液和 DNA 数据，帮助您更好地实现个人健康目标。

Now, I've long been a believer in getting regular blood work done for the simple reason that many of the factors that impact your immediate and long-term health can only be analyzed with a quality blood test.

现在，我长期以来一直相信定期进行血液检查，原因很简单，影响您当前和长期健康的许多因素只能通过高质量的血液测试来分析。

Now, the problem with a lot of blood tests out there is that you get information back about metabolic factors, lipids and hormones and so forth, but you don't know what to do with that information.

现在，许多血液测试的问题是，您会得到有关代谢因素、脂质和激素等的信息，但您不知道如何处理这些信息。

With Inside Tracker, they have a very easy to use online platform that allows you to see the results of your blood test and then offers you various actionable tools such as behavioral tools, nutritional tools, and supplementation tools that can help you move those values from your tests into the ranges that are optimal for you.

通过 Inside Tracker，他们有一个非常易于使用的在线平台，让您可以查看血液测试的结果，然后为您提供各种可行的工具，例如行为工具、营养工具和补充工具，可以帮助您将测试中的这些值转移到最适合您的范围。

If you'd like to try inside Tracker, you can go to inside tracker.com/huberman to get 10% off their new subscription model, which has significantly reduced prices.

如果您想尝试 Inside Tracker，可以访问 inside tracker.com/huberman 享受其新订阅模式 10% 的折扣，该模式大幅降低了价格。

Again, that's inside tracker.com/huberman to get 10% off.

同样，在 tracker.com/huberman 内可享受 10% 的折扣。

As a neuroscientist, I was trained to think about the neural retina, the light sensing tissue at the back of the eye, the cochlea, the essentially mechano sensory cells in the inner ear that respond to sound waves, not directly, but through a number of different transducers and this kind of thing.

作为一名神经科学家，我接受的训练是思考神经视网膜、眼睛后部的光传感组织、耳蜗、内耳中本质上对声波做出反应的机械感觉细胞，不是直接反应，而是通过许多不同的传感器和类似的东西。

And then of course, where you are all familiar with the skin and that it responds to pressure, light, touch, tickle, itch, et cetera.

当然，你们都熟悉皮肤，它会对压力、光线、触摸、痒痒等做出反应。

What I'm understanding, based on what you're telling me is that all along the pathway from our mouth to our rectum, we have sensory cells that are evaluating the chemical constituents of the foods that we eat, emitting broad, maybe even crude, slow signals in the form of hormones to change our appetite, our feelings of wellbeing, maybe our feelings of not wellbeing, but also sending direct signals to the brain to drive certain types of thinking, emotions and behavior.

根据你告诉我的情况，我的理解是，从我们的口腔到直肠的整个过程中，我们都有感觉细胞，它们正在评估我们所吃食物的化学成分，以激素的形式发出广泛的、甚至可能是粗暴的、缓慢的信号来改变我们的食欲、我们的幸福感，也许是我们不幸福的感觉，但也向大脑发送直接信号，以驱动某些类型的思维、情绪和行为。

What sorts of thoughts, emotions, and behaviors are foods known to evoke through this pathway from the gut?

已知食物会通过肠道的这条途径唤起什么样的想法、情绪和行为？

Because the story about your friend that had the gastric bypass and then changed the relationship completely to the craving of, or the aversion to Sunnyside eggs indicates that it's a pretty crude, as I'm describing a system to begin with, but it ultimately converges on pretty fine scale decision making.

因为关于你朋友的故事，他做了胃绕道手术，然后完全改变了对阳光鸡蛋的渴望或厌恶，这表明它是一个相当粗糙的系统，正如我一开始描述的系统一样，但它最终会集中在相当精细的规模决策上。

You order this and you avoid that you really like this and you really are almost nauseous at the thought of something else that's pretty high level decisions.

你点了这个，你避免说你真的很喜欢这个，一想到其他一些相当高级别的决定，你真的几乎感到恶心。

It might not seem like it to most, but it's impacting significant behavior or impacting behavior at a significant level.

对于大多数人来说，它可能看起来不像，但它正在影响重要的行为或在很大程度上影响行为。

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

That's correct, and when I think about that specific example is that after there has been this rewiring of the intestine, then now the intestine is very sensitive, so to speak to the stimuli and when those lipids from the yolk start to enter intestine, if that sensitivity has changed, meaning it could have changed in how fast it reacts to the stimulus or how fast it communicates to the stimulus and how sensitive it is to the saliency or the strength of the stimulus, it could communicate that what it used to be repulsive with a tiny little bit of amount.

这是正确的，当我想到这个具体的例子是，在肠道重新布线之后，现在肠道对刺激非常敏感，当蛋黄中的那些脂质开始进入肠道时，如果这种敏感性发生了变化，这意味着它对刺激的反应速度或与刺激的沟通速度以及对刺激的显着性或强度的敏感度可能会发生变化，它可以传达出它过去的情况一点点的量就令人厌恶。

Now it is actually pleasurable with a tiny little bit of amount, and here's a clear example.

现在，只要一点点的钱，实际上就很令人愉快，这是一个明显的例子。

So it has been very, well, I'll say that it has been documented in the clinic that patients that undergone gastric bypass surgery, they're actually more prone.

所以，我想说，临床上有记录显示，接受过胃绕道手术的患者实际上更容易发生胃绕道手术。

I think that it goes from two to sevenfold, the likelihood that they become and they will develop alcoholism.

我认为他们酗酒的可能性从两倍到七倍。

Really?

真的吗？

Yes, because now the way that they describe it is like, well, either before I didn't like wine, and then now after a few months of a surgery, I'll have one glass of wine, and then all of a sudden I found myself going to 2, 3, 4, and then they will become either more sensitive, it's still not known the entire biology, but they will become either not only more sensitive but more attracted to that type of stimulus.

是的，因为现在他们描述的方式就像是，要么在我不喜欢酒之前，然后现在在手术几个月后，我会喝一杯酒，然后突然我发现自己要喝2、3、4，然后他们会变得更加敏感，整个生物学仍然不为人所知，但他们不仅会变得更加敏感，而且更容易被那种类型的刺激所吸引。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I can't help but ask about ozempic manjaro and GLP one glucagon-like peptide one analogs, which are really out of all the rage right now, at least for discussion.

我忍不住要问一下 ozempic manjaro 和 GLP 一种胰高血糖素样肽一种类似物，它们现在确实已经过时了，至少在讨论中是这样。

But many, many, many millions of people are now taking this for treatment of diabetes and for weight loss.

但现在有数以百万计的人正在服用这种药物来治疗糖尿病和减肥。

My understanding is that GLP one acts at the level of the brain, the hypothalamus to reduce hunger, but also at the level of the gut to give the sensation of more gastric distension.

我的理解是，GLP 一在大脑、下丘脑层面发挥作用，以减少饥饿感，但也在肠道层面发挥作用，产生更多胃扩张的感觉。

Is there any knowledge of whether or not GLP one interacts with the neuro pod cells and this pathway that you're describing given what these neuro pod cells do for craving or aversion?

考虑到这些神经荚细胞对渴望或厌恶的作用，是否知道 GLP 是否与神经荚细胞相互作用以及您所描述的这一途径？

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

Yes.

是的。

That's a complimentary question, and in fact, when I got into a study in this field 15 years ago, the study among scientists in this area, glucagon-like peptide, was already very popular in the study.

这是一个互补的问题，事实上，当我15年前进入这个领域的研究时，这个领域的科学家们的研究，胰高血糖素样肽，在研究中就已经很热门了。

In fact, in this area, people were very focused on the study of this peptide, and they were very focused on the study of this peptide because it was one of the most potent stimulators of insulin release in the pancreas after gastric bypass surgery, it will actually increase its amount in circulating levels, and there were already some studies suggesting that the effect of these glucagon-like peptide, it was actually not through the circulation, but more in a localized action onto nerve fibers, especially of the vagus nerve.

事实上，在这个领域，人们非常关注这种肽的研究，他们非常关注这种肽的研究，因为它是胃绕道手术后胰腺中胰岛素释放最有效的刺激剂之一，它实际上会增加其在循环水平中的量，而且已经有一些研究表明，这些胰高血糖素样肽的作用，实际上不是通过循环，而是更多地作用于神经纤维，特别是迷走神经。

So there was already some ongoing discussion about this, and certainly some of these enteroendocrine cells, these neuroendocrine cells, particularly at least in animals, I think is more distal in the digestive tract, that they do release these glucagon lip peptide one in response to primarily all of the macronutrients, but primarily sugar.

因此，已经对此进行了一些持续的讨论，当然还有一些肠内分泌细胞，这些神经内分泌细胞，特别是至少在动物中，我认为它们位于消化道的更远端，它们确实释放这些胰高血糖素唇肽之一，以响应主要所有的常量营养素，但主要是糖。

And then these glucagon-like peptide one will act on specific receptors of the nerve terminals and then will trigger some of the behaviors.

然后这些胰高血糖素样肽就会作用于神经末梢的特定受体，进而引发一些行为。

It also thought that it acts at the level of the brainstem, and what it will potentiate is the reduction of appetite.

它还认为它在脑干水平起作用，并且它会增强食欲的降低。

So I say that this is a complimentary question because what is happening in the first few milliseconds is the actual choice and the actual feeling of how you feel about food and what is happening in the minutes, two hours later is the amount, how much you can eat and when you should stop.

所以我说这是一个补充性的问题，因为在最初的几毫秒内发生的事情是你对食物的实际选择和真实感受，以及几分钟内发生的事情，两小时后是数量，你可以吃多少以及何时应该停止。

Because after four hours, you're going to come back and feel again, the tickling of the gut because the gut starts to churn again, and it starts to call for food.

因为四个小时后，你会回来再次感觉到肠道发痒，因为肠道再次开始搅动，并且开始需要食物。

Remember, it has to fit two giant organisms, the host itself, but also the micros that are inside.

请记住，它必须适合两个巨大的生物体，即宿主本身，以及内部的微生物。

So it has to keep, so to speak, that hunger going every four hours or so.

因此，可以说，它必须保持每四个小时左右出现一次饥饿感。

So that's why the hormones are more acting on the cyclical circadian way, but the transmitters are acting in this very fast responsive way of the precise stimuli in specific regions, the gastrointestinal tract.

这就是为什么激素更多地以周期性昼夜节律方式起作用，但发射器以这种非常快速响应的方式对特定区域（胃肠道）的精确刺激起作用。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So these neuroendocrine cells are releasing GLP one or responding to GLP

所以这些神经内分泌细胞正在释放一种 GLP 或对 GLP 做出反应

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

One.

一。

They're releasing GLP one,

他们正在发布 GLP 一项，

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

They're releasing GLP one to shut down, transiently shut down hunger,

他们正在释放 GLP 一种来消除、暂时消除饥饿，

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

And probably there is some interaction between the cells that they are having.

细胞之间可能存在某种相互作用。

The technical term is auto cream, or they are having power cream between the cells neuromodulation, but primarily, let's say they respond to the stimulus and release GLP one onto the nerve fiber.

技术术语是自动霜，或者它们在细胞神经调节之间具有动力霜，但首先，假设它们对刺激做出反应并将 GLP 释放到神经纤维上。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I have a theory for which I have no direct data, but I'd like your thoughts on having spoken to a lot of people that work on nutrition, but also gut brain access today and microbiome in previous episodes, that one of the key things that a human learns somewhat unconsciously, but also consciously is the relationship between a given food, which macronutrients it contains the ratios of carbohydrate, protein, and fat, the taste of that food, the amount of that food translated into calories, but also physical volume.

我有一个理论，我没有直接的数据，但我想听听你们对我的看法，我和很多从事营养研究的人进行了交谈，但也了解了今天的肠道大脑通路和前几集中的微生物组，人类在某种程度上无意识但也有意识地学到的关键知识之一是给定食物之间的关系，其中含有碳水化合物、蛋白质和脂肪的比例，该食物的味道，该食物转化为卡路里的量，还有物理体积。

And then the micronutrients, why do I say this?

然后是微量营养素，为什么这么说呢？

Well, there are a growing number of studies showing that the ingestion of highly processed food leads to the intake of excess calories or more calories than if one consumes foods in their more natural form.

越来越多的研究表明，摄入高度加工的食品会导致摄入过量的热量，或者比摄入更天然形式的食物摄入更多的热量。

Single ingredient foods or two ingredient foods are very different than a food that has a bunch of different things in it.

单一成分的食物或两种成分的食物与含有多种不同成分的食物有很大不同。

And it seems to me that if we were to look back into our evolution, sure, people were making stews and soups and things for a long time.

在我看来，如果我们回顾我们的进化，当然，人们很长时间以来都在做炖菜、汤之类的东西。

Presumably the sandwich came about through either desire for convenience or taste or both putting meats protein in between two pieces of bread, something of that sort by definition of a sandwich, maybe some vegetables in there as well, some cheese.

据推测，三明治的出现是为了方便或口味，或者两者都将肉类蛋白质放在两片面包之间，根据三明治的定义，可能还有一些蔬菜，一些奶酪。

But that what this whole pathway along the gut is trying to do, it seems is to deconstruct what's coming in, what's here and shaping choices as you mentioned about food choice, including the amount of food to further consume and whether or not to return to that food or to avoid it.

但是，沿着肠道的整个路径试图做的事情，似乎是解构即将到来的东西、这里的东西，并塑造你所提到的食物选择的选择，包括进一步消耗的食物量以及是否返回该食物或避免它。

And at That's correct, the extremes, it seems pretty straightforward, and this is a very classically described case, right?

这是正确的，极端的情况，看起来非常简单，这是一个非常经典的描述案例，对吧？

You go and you have the kung pow shrimp or you have the lentil soup at a given place and a few hours later you don't feel right.

你去某个地方吃了宫保虾或者扁豆汤，几个小时后你就感觉不对劲了。

You start some sweating, some gastric distress, and you develop a pretty broad aversion to that food or maybe even the entire meal, maybe the restaurant, maybe even that entire type of cuisine, depending on how much of a lumper versus a splitter you are, as we say in science, how much you make large bin decisions or fine bin decisions.

你开始出汗，胃部不适，然后你对那种食物产生了相当广泛的厌恶，甚至可能是整顿饭，可能是餐厅，甚至可能是整个类型的菜肴，这取决于你是一个笨蛋还是一个分裂者，正如我们在科学中所说的那样，你在多大程度上做出了大垃圾决定或精细垃圾决定。

And this is nerd speak for saying, do you go back to the same restaurant but order something different, or do you just decide to never go back again?

这是书呆子的说法，你会回到同一家餐厅但点不同的东西，还是决定不再回去？

But that's a pretty extreme case.

但这是一个非常极端的例子。

The other extreme would be you eat a food, it's delicious, you feel wonderful, the restaurant, the people, it's wonderful, and you crave more of that food.

另一个极端是你吃一种食物，它很美味，你感觉很棒，餐厅，这里的人，都很棒，你会渴望更多这种食物。

Okay?

好的？

There's all the contextual stuff too, but what we really are talking about here is how one navigates this whole landscape of what to put into one's body in terms of nutrition and trying to understand how that's impacting everything from how we feel right away, how it tastes, whether or not we conceive it as good or bad for us, whether or not we think it's impacting our body composition and health in ways that we want or don't want.

还有所有上下文相关的东西，但我们在这里真正讨论的是如何从营养角度了解应该给身体吃什么，并试图理解它如何影响一切，从我们立即的感觉、味道如何，我们是否认为它对我们有利或有害，无论我们是否认为它以我们想要或不想要的方式影响我们的身体成分和健康。

I mean, it's pretty complex stuff.

我的意思是，这是非常复杂的事情。

This is at least as complex as going to a Metropolitan Museum of Art and looking at a painting and trying to evaluate whether or not you really like that painting or not.

这至少和去大都会艺术博物馆观看一幅画并试图评估你是否真的喜欢那幅画一样复杂。

Absolutely.

绝对地。

In fact, it's probably much more complicated than that, but it's what we do, and I'm beginning to get the sense, again, no pun intended, that this pathway that we call the gut-brain axis is really, it's a sixth sense of a very elaborate kind.

事实上，它可能比这复杂得多，但这就是我们所做的，我再次开始感觉到，没有双关语的意思，我们称之为肠脑轴的这条通路确实是一种非常复杂的第六感。

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

So you just touch on an entire realm of a topic, which is one of my favorite topics because at some point as scientists, we travel, we travel the world, and it started to become very obvious to me that wherever I went, we solved this issue of food in a very similar way, whether it is a tortilla or two pieces of breath, which is another way of a tortilla.

所以你只需触及一个主题的整个领域，这是我最喜欢的主题之一，因为在某些时候，作为科学家，我们旅行，我们环游世界，对我来说，开始变得非常明显，无论我走到哪里，我们都以非常相似的方式解决食物问题，无论是玉米饼还是两片呼吸，这是玉米饼的另一种方式。

You have your carbs and then you add a little bit of meat or a mushroom, and now you have your protein

你有了碳水化合物，然后添加一点肉或蘑菇，现在你有了蛋白质

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Or fish or chicken or

或者鱼或者鸡或者

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

Fish or chicken.

鱼或鸡。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

The carnivores will say, mushrooms not a protein.

食肉动物会说，蘑菇不是蛋白质。

The vegans will say, mushroom beans, lentils, great protein.

素食主义者会说，蘑菇豆、扁豆是很好的蛋白质。

We're not here to resolve that debate.

我们来这里不是为了解决这场辩论。

Do as you choose,

做你选择的事，

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

And then you add the lettuce or the vegetables, and here's the first stop in that discussion because this is fascinating.

然后添加生菜或蔬菜，这是讨论的第一站，因为这很有趣。

There are some recent work showing that if you remove the protein from a diet, the animal swallows that meal, the guts, that there is no protein in there and it stops eating that meal.

最近的一些研究表明，如果你从饮食中去除蛋白质，动物就会吞下那顿饭，也就是内脏，因为那里没有蛋白质，所以它就会停止吃那顿饭。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So this is ordering the vegetarian taco or burrito or sandwich and then avoiding that particular taco or sandwich thereafter because it lacks protein,

所以这是订购素食炸玉米饼或卷饼或三明治，然后避免特定的炸玉米饼或三明治，因为它缺乏蛋白质，

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

Because it lacks protein.

因为它缺乏蛋白质。

So

所以

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Foods that lack animal-based proteins tend to be avoided going

往往避免食用缺乏动物性蛋白质的食物

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

Forward.

前进。

So here's the second part of that.

这是第二部分。

No, and in fact, if the protein is low, not completely absent, if the protein is low, the animal consumes more of the diet because it's trying to compensate for the lack of protein, and obviously we have sugars or fats that are more pleasurable.

不，事实上，如果蛋白质含量低，而不是完全没有，如果蛋白质含量低，动物会消耗更多的饮食，因为它试图弥补蛋白质的缺乏，显然我们有糖或脂肪更令人愉悦。

It keeps eating that meal.

它继续吃那顿饭。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I see.

我明白了。

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

If the protein is completely absent, the animal avoids that diet unless the diet is very rich in dietary fibers.

如果完全缺乏蛋白质，动物就会避免这种饮食，除非饮食中膳食纤维非常丰富。

And the study that I saw, which I thought it was fascinating, is that because somehow the microorganisms in the digestive tract, if they have enough highly digestible fiber, now they turn on the ability to synthesize essential amino acids.

我看到的研究，我认为它很有趣，是因为消化道中的微生物不知何故，如果它们有足够的高度可消化的纤维，现在它们就会开启合成必需氨基酸的能力。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Really?

真的吗？

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So our gut, meaning the neurons in our gut are essentially waiting for hoping will give them a consciousness proteins from animal sources.

所以我们的肠道，意味着我们肠道中的神经元本质上正在等待希望能给它们一种来自动物来源的意识蛋白质。

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

That's correct.

这是正确的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

If those animal proteins arrive in the form of meat, fish, eggs, et cetera, the cells signal to the brain craving more of those foods until satiety is reached.

如果这些动物蛋白以肉、鱼、蛋等形式到达，细胞就会向大脑发出信号，渴望更多这些食物，直到达到饱腹感。

But in the absence of that protein, the animal quickly learns, the person quickly learns to avoid that particular food unless there's fiber in it, in which case these gut cells are able to now synthesize the essential amino acids, the

但在缺乏这种蛋白质的情况下，动物很快就会学会，人很快就会学会避免那种特定的食物，除非其中含有纤维，在这种情况下，这些肠道细胞现在能够合成必需氨基酸，即

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

Microorganisms,

微生物，

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Excuse me, the microorganisms of the gut here, we're talking about the microbiome now can synthesize the essential

打扰一下，这里的肠道微生物，我们现在谈论的是微生物组可以合成必需的

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

Amino

氨基

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Amino acids that ordinarily would come from the meat, chicken, fish, or eggs.

通常来自肉、鸡肉、鱼或鸡蛋的氨基酸。

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

That's right.

没错。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So wow.

所以哇。

So I'm an omnivore.

所以我是杂食动物。

I love meat, high quality meat, but I also love vegetables, fruits, and starches of certain kinds.

我喜欢肉，高质量的肉，但我也喜欢蔬菜、水果和某些种类的淀粉。

But I have friends who are vegetarian, vegan, many of them eat a vegetarian vegan diet that includes a lot of fiber.

但我有一些朋友是素食主义者，他们中的许多人都吃含有大量纤维的纯素饮食。

And you're saying that the fiber itself can trigger the gut microbiome to synthesize the essential amino acids that ordinarily would come from meat.

你说纤维本身可以触发肠道微生物合成通常来自肉类的必需氨基酸。

But you also said, if I recall that if there's a small amount of protein, so not zero protein, but a small amount of protein in there, then we crave more of that food in order to try and get compensate

但你也说过，如果我记得如果有少量的蛋白质，所以不是零蛋白质，而是有少量的蛋白质，那么我们就会渴望更多的食物，以便尝试获得补偿

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

Protein.

蛋白质。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Very interesting, because this is the first thing that to me squares the argument based on the observation or the hypothesis that we are essentially amino acid foraging machines and that complete proteins in the form of meat, fish, chicken, eggs, et cetera.

非常有趣，因为对我来说，这是基于观察或假设的第一件事，即我们本质上是氨基酸觅食机器，并且以肉、鱼、鸡肉、鸡蛋等形式完成蛋白质。

There are those that argue those are the best forms of protein, the most complete forms.

有人认为这些是蛋白质的最佳形式，最完整的形式。

But there are many vegetarians and vegans who seem to thrive on a vegetarian vegan diet.

但有许多素食者和严格素食者似乎靠纯素饮食而茁壮成长。

And you're telling me that perhaps their body, their gut microbiome is compensating for the lack of whole animal protein?

你是在告诉我，也许他们的身体、他们的肠道微生物组正在补偿全动物蛋白的缺乏？

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

That's right.

没错。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But the people who are trying to limit their meat intake are what hungrier in general.

但那些试图限制肉类摄入量的人一般来说更加饥饿。

So you're better off either indulging it or avoiding it, but not having a small amount of it.

因此，你最好要么沉迷于它，要么避免它，但不要吃少量。

Is that the idea?

是这个想法吗？

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

The idea is that the body or the gut will be able to detect that and then will try to compensate.

这个想法是身体或肠道将能够检测到这一点，然后尝试进行补偿。

Right.

正确的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I see.

我明白了。

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

I actually learned recently from a friend Laura Al Columbia, who works, does some beautiful work on mosquitoes and how it is that they feed on blood.

事实上，我最近从一位工作的朋友劳拉·阿尔·哥伦比亚那里了解到，她在蚊子方面做了一些出色的工作，以及它们是如何以血液为食的。

She came for the Gass series.

她是为了加斯系列而来的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Is she from Leslie?

她是莱斯利家的吗？

Al.

阿尔。

Al,

艾尔，

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

Yeah.

是的。

And what I learned is that when the mosquitoes are not reproducing, they can leave off a TP, which is the energy molecule, right?

我了解到，当蚊子不繁殖时，它们会留下TP，也就是能量分子，对吗？

But they cannot lay X.

但他们不能下X。

They need the protein in order to be able to lay X, otherwise the mosquitoes cannot lay the egg.

它们需要蛋白质才能产卵，否则蚊子就无法产卵。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So this leaves us with a picture of the gut sensing cells, these neuro pod cells as exquisitely sensitive to amino acid content in our foods, which makes perfect sense

因此，这给我们留下了肠道感知细胞的图像，这些神经荚细胞对食物中的氨基酸含量极其敏感，这是完全有道理的

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

To me.

对我来说。

It has not been published or demonstrated yet.

它尚未发布或演示。

Sure.

当然。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

We're now in the realm of new incoming data, so we want to highlight this bracket it boldface and underlined it as we're now at the cutting edge of what's may be coming.

我们现在正处于新传入数据的领域，因此我们想突出显示这个括号，它以粗体显示，并用下划线突出显示，因为我们现在正处于可能即将到来的数据的最前沿。

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

That's right, right.

就是这样，没错。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Observation, but nonetheless, very interesting.

观察，但仍然非常有趣。

But there is this fairly longstanding hypothesis that we are foraging for essential amino acids because they are the building blocks of so many important things in the brain and body.

但有一个相当悠久的假设，即我们正在寻找必需氨基酸，因为它们是大脑和身体中许多重要物质的组成部分。

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

And in fact, there is evidence and Professor Steven Simpson in Australia and the Nutrition Research Institute at Sydney University, he is main proponent of this protein leverage hypothesis.

事实上，有证据表明澳大利亚和悉尼大学营养研究所的史蒂文·辛普森教授是这种蛋白质杠杆假说的主要支持者。

And in fact, protein is the most sating macronutrients.

事实上，蛋白质是最有饱腹感的大量营养素。

So that has been established, and that's why normally we have focused on sugars and fats, but we have neglected a little bit on the protein because it's not as pleasurable as the sugars or fats.

所以这一点已经确定，这就是为什么我们通常关注糖和脂肪，但我们忽略了一点蛋白质，因为它不像糖或脂肪那样令人愉悦。

But what is fascinating is that it is the most satiating nutrient, and as you know, it's the most limiting and also even commercially is the most expensive right now.

但令人着迷的是，它是最令人饱腹的营养素，而且如您所知，它是最有限的，甚至目前商业上也是最昂贵的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

I certainly have had the experience of at one time in my life really enjoying and even craving sweet foods, desserts and sugars and things of that sort.

我一生中确实有过一次真正享受甚至渴望甜食、甜点和糖以及诸如此类的东西的经历。

And I noticed that over time, if I eat sufficient amounts of meat, chicken, eggs, fish, which is not to say that I consume excess amounts of them, that my sugar cravings go way, way down.

我注意到，随着时间的推移，如果我吃足够量的肉、鸡肉、鸡蛋、鱼，这并不是说我摄入过量，我对糖的渴望就会大大降低。

That's just my personal experience.

这只是我的个人经历。

But I know it's an experience that family members of mine and others share as well.

但我知道我的家人和其他人也有同样的经历。

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

But I promise you that this was a fun topic.

但我向你保证这是一个有趣的话题。

We couldn't stop at just layer number one.

我们不能只停留在第一层。

Layer number two is that in agriculture, we have this instinct to plant plants that compliment each other.

第二层是，在农业中，我们有这种本能来种植彼此互补的植物。

For instance, a classic, especially native among native communities is called the three Marys, I believe is pumpkins on some type of fibers with corn, carbohydrates and beans.

例如，一个经典的，特别是在土著社区中本地化的，被称为“三玛丽”，我相信是某种纤维上的南瓜，含有玉米、碳水化合物和豆类。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So in purely plant-based diets, there's an effort to get the fiber, the sugar, and the amino acids.

因此，在纯植物性饮食中，需要努力获取纤维、糖和氨基酸。

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

That's right.

没错。

And I grew up in a farm.

我在农场长大。

My parents got farms, and I remember when they would plant, they will also throw in the beans and the beans will wrap around the corn, and it just seem like so natural, and that's what you will do because that's what you learn to do.

我的父母有农场，我记得当他们种植时，他们也会扔进豆子，豆子会包裹住玉米，这看起来很自然，这就是你要做的，因为这就是你学会做的。

But if you think about it, it's an thing that we have developed even agriculturally and probably in the subconscious to cultivate them in such a way or perhaps the plants taught us how to cultivate them in such a way that now when we put 'em in the plate, it just makes sense at the nutritional level.

但如果你想一想，我们甚至在农业上也开发了这种东西，可能在潜意识中以这种方式种植它们，或者也许植物教会了我们如何以这种方式种植它们，现在当我们把它们放在盘子里时，它在营养水平上才有意义。

If you think about it, every time that we go to eat, how is it that we arrange that plate?

你想一想，我们每次去吃饭，那个盘子是怎么摆的？

Right?

正确的？

There is some rice which is very deficient in some essential amino acids, but it's reaching carbohydrates.

有些大米非常缺乏某些必需氨基酸，但它却达到了碳水化合物的水平。

It has some beans, and then there's some lettuce, and sometimes we have for omnivores, people will put meat or you would put other types of protein in there.

它有一些豆类，然后有一些生菜，有时我们有杂食动物，人们会放肉，或者你会放其他类型的蛋白质在那里。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And certainly it varies by culture, time of year, food availability, and things of that sort.

当然，它会因文化、一年中的时间、食物供应等因素而有所不同。

As long as we're talking about your upbringing, you have a fascinating story, so maybe we could discuss that for a few minutes.

只要我们谈论你的成长经历，你就有一个引人入胜的故事，所以也许我们可以讨论几分钟。

Where were you born?

你在哪里出世？

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

I was born in the Amazonia of Ecuador, a small town called El Chaco in Ecuador is on the slopes of the eastern slopes of the Andes.

我出生在厄瓜多尔的亚马逊流域，厄瓜多尔安第斯山脉东坡的山坡上有一个叫埃尔查科的小镇。

On the way to the Amazonia in the Napa province, coincidentally, was through the path from where Francisco Diora in 1542 March on its way to the discovery of the Amazon actually passed through a trail that later on reading, I realized that native people had all of these trails between the Amazonia and the coastal line for thousands of years.

巧合的是，在前往纳帕省亚马逊流域的途中，正是经过弗朗西斯科·迪奥拉1542年3月发现亚马逊流域的途中所经过的小路，后来读到，我意识到土著人几千年来一直在亚马逊流域和海岸线之间拥有所有这些小径。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You grew up in a very rural

你在一个非常乡村的地方长大

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

Yes.

是的。

The oil had been detected in the 1920s in Ecuador.

20 世纪 20 年代，厄瓜多尔发现了这些石油。

It was first explorer in 1964, in the first oil well was in a town called Lario, which now is only three or four hours from the town where I grew up.

第一次探险是在1964年，第一口油井是在一个叫拉里奥的小镇，现在距离我长大的小镇只有三四个小时的路程。

But at that time it was like eight hours.

但当时也就八个小时左右。

The roads were not good, and the first road passed through it in 1974.

路况不好，1974年第一条公路通过。

I was born in 1983, but I remember that we used to have a giant diesel engine that will give us a light electricity only from seven to 9:00 PM I remember when my father bought the first color television in the town, and then neighbors will come to our living room and then we'll watch movies.

我出生于1983年，但我记得我们曾经有一个巨大的柴油机，只能在晚上七点到九点之间给我们供电。我记得当我父亲买了镇上第一台彩色电视机时，邻居们就会来到我们的客厅，然后我们会看电影。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And this was in the eighties?

那是在八十年代？

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

That was in the eighties, right.

那是八十年代，对吧。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Such an interesting upbringing.

如此有趣的成长经历。

So did you eat a purely vegetarian diet or you ate meats as well?

那么你是吃纯素食还是也吃肉呢？

Where did those meats come from if you did?

如果你吃了的话，这些肉是从哪里来的？

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

Primarily from a cattle goats ship.

主要来自牛羊船。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So how do you go from the Amazon to a study of nutrition and ultimately neuroscience?

那么，如何从亚马逊转向营养研究并最终转向神经科学呢？

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

Yeah, that's the question, right?

是的，这就是问题，对吧？

The deeper I go, the more I question this.

我越深入，我就越质疑这一点。

I used to think that, oh, it was very simple.

我曾经以为，哦，这很简单。

When I was, specifically when I was 11 years old, my father, he was born in 1932.

当我，特别是当我 11 岁的时候，我的父亲出生于 1932 年。

By 19, he lost his father, my grandfather, when he was six years old, and he was given away and he had to go and build his life.

19 岁的时候，他六岁时失去了父亲，也就是我的祖父，他被送走，他不得不去建立自己的生活。

He was a very successful entrepreneur, but in the process, he had made a lot of friends and acquaintances.

他是一位非常成功的企业家，但在这个过程中，他结识了很多朋友和熟人。

So when I was 11 years old, I remember specifically that a friend of his who was in the special forces stopped by our home because that was the main road that we go into, the Amazon jungle where the folks in the special forces in the military will be trained.

所以当我11岁时，我特别记得他的一位特种部队朋友来我们家，因为那是我们进入亚马逊丛林的主要道路，军队特种部队的人员将在那里接受训练。

And he stopped by and say like, Hey, Rogelio, what are you going to do with Diego?

他停下来说，嘿，罗赫里奥，你打算对迭戈做什么？

I think that it is about time that I think that you should send him to the military school.

我想你是时候送他去军校了。

And I remember in a matter of literally a couple of weeks or three weeks, I had taken the tests and I was accepted into the military school.

我记得在短短几周或三周内，我参加了考试并被军校录取。

And then I ended up in a military school.

然后我进入了一所军校。

And this was, at that time it was the premier military in the country.

这是当时该国最重要的军队。

That alone with years, you start to understand the context in which you developed because it was a very interesting context for a child.

仅凭多年的时间，您就开始了解自己成长的环境，因为这对孩子来说是一个非常有趣的环境。

Just to give you an idea, these, this school had the first and the only zoo in the country.

只是为了给你一个想法，这些，这所学校拥有该国第一个也是唯一一个动物园。

So from my classroom, I would literally look at the lions.

所以在我的教室里，我会认真地看着狮子。

And then I think that was by the second year that I was in the school, second or third year that became that because the city started to grow and then the military school is wrong, and then they separated the higher education for military officers.

然后我想那是我在学校的第二年，第二年或第三年，因为城市开始发展，然后军校是错误的，然后他们将军官的高等教育分开了。

They separated them and they put them in a different place.

他们将它们分开并放在不同的地方。

But that zoo actually became the first zoo of the capital of ton.

但那个动物园居然成为了吨都的第一座动物园。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Wait, so you had a zoo with lions at your school?

等等，你们学校里有一个有狮子的动物园吗？

Yes.

是的。

And you said you could see the lions from your classroom and they could see you presumably

你说你可以从教室里看到狮子，他们大概也能看到你

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

Probably know them

大概认识他们

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Well, I assume they could see you were line vision is pretty good.

好吧，我想如果直线视力很好的话他们就能看到你。

I don't know what the resolution is, but I'm guessing that their vision, they definitely use their olfaction, but they are site-based hunters as well.

我不知道分辨率是什么，但我猜测他们的视觉，他们肯定会使用他们的嗅觉，但他们也是基于地点的猎人。

But

但是

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

I have a specifically one memory climbing up.

我有一段特别的记忆在爬升。

I think it was from the, because we had an Olympic pool and we had all of these events.

我认为这是来自，因为我们有一个奥林匹克游泳池，我们举办了所有这些赛事。

The soccer field was the field where national team will go and train on because they didn't have their own training grounds later on.

足球场是国家队训练的场地，因为后来他们没有自己的训练场。

They had their own training grounds.

他们有自己的训练场。

But that was something that you just grow into it.

但这是你成长起来的事情。

But it was with the years and now especially that I get to reflect on it, I was extremely fortunate through that experience and that education, and now I'm here sharing some of the story and hopefully through that, inspiring some people, especially young people that would like to go and chase their dreams.

但随着时间的推移，尤其是现在，我开始反思这一点，通过这段经历和教育，我非常幸运，现在我在这里分享一些故事，希望通过这些故事，激励一些人，特别是那些想要去追逐梦想的年轻人。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So you went to military school in Ecuador?

那么你在厄瓜多尔上过军校吗？

Yeah.

是的。

You graduated and you decided to go to

你毕业了，你决定去

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

Yeah, so I want to become, so in the military school, they will select the top cadets, I think it was the top 10%, and they will select them and they will put them through a special training.

是的，所以我想成为，所以在军校，他们会选择最优秀的学员，我认为是前10%，他们会选择他们，让他们接受特殊训练。

So you have essentially, I didn't have what was a normal summer vacation.

所以基本上，我没有度过一个正常的暑假。

I will go into military training.

我将参加军训。

So for me, it was going to be very, not easy, but relatively straightforward to transition into Officer's Academy, do four more years like West Point here, and then become an officer.

所以对我来说，过渡到军官学院，像西点军校那样再学习四年，然后成为一名军官，这将是非常非常不容易的，但相对简单。

In fact, I had a reserves officer degree when I graduated, but two years before graduating, a friend of mine who he preferred other types of careers, he said, you're not going to become a military.

事实上，我毕业时获得了预备役军官学位，但在毕业前两年，我的一个朋友他更喜欢其他类型的职业，他说，你不会成为一名军人。

You're not going to go into the military.

你不会去参军。

And he said, you should probably study something that will help your parents.

他说，你也许应该学习一些对你父母有帮助的东西。

And then I said, what will that be?

然后我说，那会是什么？

And he said, perhaps agriculture.

他说，也许是农业。

And I didn't think at that time it didn't dawn on me that people can study for agriculture and agriculture is the base of food for all of us.

我当时并不认为人们可以研究农业，而农业是我们所有人的食物基础。

And then I said, where?

然后我说，哪里？

And then he mentioned for the first time, this university in Zamarano, which was founded with some funds that were donated by the founder of the Standard Fruit Company, which eventually became I think Chick Banana.

然后他第一次提到了扎马拉诺的这所大学，这所大学是用标准水果公司的创始人捐赠的一些资金创办的，我想这家公司最终变成了Chick Banana。

And that is a oasis that is in Honduras outside of Tepa.

那是洪都拉斯特帕以外的一片绿洲。

So it's a boarding school.

所以这是一所寄宿学校。

You wear uniforms.

你穿着制服。

So it was kind of like military.

所以这有点像军事。

It was very strict.

这是非常严格的。

You cannot accumulate more than 12 demerits, otherwise they will send you home.

你的记分不能超过12个，否则他们会送你回家。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

How do you get a demerit?

怎样才能得到记过呢？

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

You show up two minutes late to work in the morning at 6:00 AM in the field, and then you just get two

早上 6:00 在现场上班，你迟到了两分钟，然后你只得到了两分钟

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Minutes late, one demerit, 12 of those, you're out.

迟到几分钟，扣 1 分，扣 12 分，你就出局了。

Two

两个

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

Demerits.

过失。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Two demerits, you're

你有两个缺点

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

Out.

出来了。

We used to get, they will check your room.

我们过去常常得到，他们会检查你的房间。

So for instance, a guest like you, if you will go there, they will give you, every Wednesday they had 7:00 PM They will check your room, but very meticulously.

例如，像您这样的客人，如果您要去那里，他们会给您，每周三晚上 7:00 他们会检查您的房间，但是非常仔细。

And if they found a little bit of a dust on the window or something to the merits and you're going home, if you accumulate enough, you will go home.

如果他们在窗户上发现一点灰尘或其他有价值的东西，你就回家，如果你积累得足够多，你就会回家。

Right.

正确的。

Wow.

哇。

So it really forms character.

所以它确实形成了性格。

Right.

正确的。

Do

做

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You do that with your kids?

你对你的孩子这样做吗？

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

No, I think that I have become married.

不，我想我已经结婚了。

Do they

他们吗

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Make their beds?

给他们铺床？

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

They do make their beds, yeah.

他们确实整理床铺，是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Okay.

好的。

But that was the context.

但这就是背景。

And it was then where I learned about two things.

就在那时我学到了两件事。

One is where this idea of getting a PhD, because I noticed that most of the leaders will have a PhD, most of the leaders in the university.

一是获得博士学位的想法，因为我注意到大多数领导都会拥有博士学位，大多数大学领导。

And I realized in the United States is one of the training grants, main training grants for PhDs.

我意识到在美国是培训补助金之一，主要是针对博士的培训补助金。

And the other one was nutrition.

另一个是营养。

I was a little bit more keen on perhaps going into a veterinary school.

我更热衷于进入兽医学校。

And then I had an experience in a dairy farm in California where I learned the value of nutrition that was more prophylactic rather than a palliative or treating the cow.

然后我在加利福尼亚州的一家奶牛场有了一次经历，在那里我了解到营养的价值，营养更具预防性，而不是姑息或治疗奶牛。

And that kind of convinced me to look for a training in nutrition.

这说服了我去寻找营养方面的培训。

And then a friend of mine, the late Abel, he was able to connect me with some friends and my mentor at North Carolina State University.

然后我的一位朋友，已故的阿贝尔，他帮我联系了一些朋友和我在北卡罗来纳州立大学的导师。

And that's where I ended up doing my PhD in nutrition.

这就是我最终获得营养学博士学位的地方。

And that's where the career became.

这就是职业生涯的开始。

And then maybe another detail in there is that I was so excited about taking, that's where I took my first physiology class, and all of a sudden I realized that in a way, the body was like a machine.

也许其中的另一个细节是，我对上这门课感到非常兴奋，那是我上第一堂生理学课的地方，突然我意识到，在某种程度上，身体就像一台机器。

Obviously it's a limited way of thinking, but the body was like a machine.

显然这是一种有限的思维方式，但身体就像一台机器。

And one of the professors was a neuroscientist.

其中一位教授是一位神经科学家。

And I took two physiologists, two human physiologists with him.

我带了两位生理学家，两位人类生理学家和他一起。

And I was just thrilled by when he will explain how that in the synaptic terminal, there were these vesicles that had these proteins that will walk the vesicle in the presynaptic active zone.

当他解释在突触末端，这些囊泡如何含有这些蛋白质时，我感到非常兴奋，这些蛋白质将在突触前活动区的囊泡中行走。

And that's how we make movement or something like that.

这就是我们如何进行运动或类似的事情。

And I guess I kept that in the background of my head, and when I had the opportunity to work in the gut, I applied that.

我想我把这一点牢记在心，当我有机会在内心深处工作时，我就应用了它。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So you were enchanted by the nervous system?

那么你对神经系统着迷吗？

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

Yes,

是的，

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

As I was too.

正如我也是一样。

Nothing to me is more spectacular then the realization that we are made up of these little tiny cells, many different types, but that the neurons essentially govern our entire experience of life.

对我来说，没有什么比认识到我们是由这些许多不同类型的微小细胞组成的，但神经元本质上控制着我们的整个生命经历更令人惊叹的了。

It's just amazing.

这真是太棒了。

Well, that's quite a journey from the Amazon to well, this table and much more.

好吧，从亚马逊到这张桌子以及更多东西，这是一个相当长的旅程。

Of course.

当然。

Thank you for sharing that.

感谢您分享这一点。

So you grew up in a, let's call it a plant rich environment, the Amazon, at least from the pictures I've seen.

所以你是在亚马逊河这样一个植物丰富的环境中长大的，至少从我看到的照片来看是这样。

Let's talk about plants, botanicals, and the idea that maybe plants, for lack of a better way to put it, have a certain intelligence or a composition that is not random with respect to our interactions with them.

让我们来谈谈植物、植物药，以及这样一种想法：由于缺乏更好的表达方式，植物可能具有一定的智能或成分，而这些智能或成分在我们与它们的相互作用中并不是随机的。

You described how agriculture in some places has evolved to include and ensure the different macronutrients and essential amino acid intake even in the absence of animal proteins, use it, the pumpkin or the squash, the corn and the beans.

您描述了一些地方的农业如何发展，以包括并确保不同的大量营养素和必需氨基酸的摄入，即使在没有动物蛋白的情况下，使用它，南瓜或南瓜，玉米和豆类。

What are your thoughts on plants perhaps from the Amazon, but elsewhere too in their capacity to have things in them, chemicals that can be good for us at the level of the gut, but perhaps at the level of the brain or other organs as well?

您对可能来自亚马逊、但也来自其他地方的植物有什么看法，因为它们体内含有对我们有益的化学物质，这些化学物质在肠道水平上对我们有益，但也许在大脑或其他器官水平上也有好处？

How do you think about plants these days?

现在你对植物有什么看法？

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

So the first thing you mentioned there, like intelligence, right?

所以你提到的第一件事就是智力，对吗？

I mean, I don't know that exact terminology applies, but I do like this word wisdom because it's reflective experience.

我的意思是，我不知道确切的术语是否适用，但我确实喜欢智慧这个词，因为它是反思性的经验。

And I say reflective experience because somehow we are going over the experience and plants have been many more millions years of age on earth than any other animal.

我说反思性经验是因为我们正在回顾这些经验，而植物在地球上的年龄比任何其他动物都长得多数百万年。

Therefore they have had way more time to actually experience the ground.

因此，他们有更多的时间来实际体验地面。

So to think that they dunno what is going on, I think it's a little bit, perhaps naive is the word.

因此，认为他们不知道发生了什么，我认为这有点，也许可以用“天真”这个词来形容。

I went to the main court of these Mayan ruins of copan, the junction between Honduras and Guatemala.

我去了科潘玛雅遗址的主宫，这里是洪都拉斯和危地马拉的交界处。

This was a very special city of the Mayans.

这是玛雅人一座非常特别的城市。

And in the main core you see all of these Astellas, which are the main stones of the kings of several dynasties.

而在主核心里，你可以看到所有这些安斯泰拉斯，它们是几个朝代国王的主石。

And at the top of one of the stairs on these pyramids, there is this giant seva tree, which is like 650 years old, something like that.

在这些金字塔的一个楼梯顶部，有一棵巨大的塞瓦树，大约有 650 年的树龄，类似的东西。

So that tree was there before the Spaniards landed in there when the Mayans perhaps were still celebrating things or perhaps right after it.

因此，在西班牙人登陆之前，那棵树就在那里，当时玛雅人可能还在庆祝活动，或者可能就在庆祝活动之后。

So imagine how much information that the organism has in there, and we will be able to just tap somehow into that information like climate fluctuations, organisms, interactions, movements, I mean so many different things like that.

所以想象一下有机体里面有多少信息，我们将能够以某种方式利用这些信息，比如气候波动、有机体、相互作用、运动，我的意思是很多不同的事情。

Right now, I don't think that we even have the language of being able to understand at the organism level of how much information that is stored in one single one of those organisms.

现在，我认为我们甚至没有一种语言能够在生物体水平上理解这些生物体中存储了多少信息。

But then think about a chloroplast, for instance, or one of the photosynthetic organelles inside of the cells.

但是，例如，考虑一下叶绿体，或者细胞内的光合作用细胞器之一。

How is it that they have been shaped for hundreds of years in those organisms?

这些生物体数百年来是如何形成它们的？

And I think that perhaps in the future, this is more of a sci-fi right now, but perhaps in the future we will be able to harvest that type of wisdom.

我想也许在未来，这更多的是现在的科幻小说，但也许将来我们能够收获这样的智慧。

We'll be able to understand a lot about the place or the earth that we live in.

我们将能够更多地了解我们所居住的地方或地球。

That's point number one.

这是第一点。

Point number two is that these plants have been interacting and we have been interacting with plants for hundreds of years.

第二点是这些植物一直在相互作用，而我们与植物的相互作用已经有数百年了。

And obviously we are a consequence of the environment.

显然，我们是环境的结果。

Like here, driving in LA or driving in a major city for some of us is just like second nature.

就像这里一样，对于我们中的一些人来说，在洛杉矶开车或在大城市开车就像第二天性一样。

But if you go into a jungle, then all of a sudden it will not be the same thing.

但如果你走进丛林，那么突然间一切就不再一样了。

But for somebody that has been in the jungle for hundreds of years, now all of a sudden they are able to describe with such a sensitivity of how it is that the jungle is, the makeup of the jungle is in there.

但对于在丛林中生活了数百年的人来说，现在突然间他们能够如此敏感地描述丛林的样子，丛林的构成就在那里。

I've seen native people walking through the jungle without shoes and right before stepping on a leaf, stopping and then pointing out, look underneath that leaf and then lifting it out, and then a tarantula right there.

我见过当地人光着脚穿过丛林，在踩到一片叶子之前停下来，然后指出，看看那片叶子下面，然后把它举起来，然后一只狼蛛就在那里。

How do you even make sense of that?

你怎么理解这一点？

I don't have the sensory acuity or the wisdom to be able to figure that out, but they do.

我没有足够的感官敏锐度或智慧来弄清楚这一点，但他们有。

And certainly that is just a level of sensory perception that I am not equipped with.

当然，这只是我不具备的感官知觉水平。

But I do think that there's quite a bit of that interaction in there to learn.

但我确实认为其中有很多互动值得学习。

And then of course, not only for food, but also for medicine, for textiles and for many other functions, these plants have been part of the ecosystem of how these people navigate their world, all the way from making a canoe to making a backpack to carry fish from the river into the house.

当然，不仅用于食品，还用于医药、纺织品和许多其他功能，这些植物已经成为人们如何驾驭世界的生态系统的一部分，从制造独木舟到制作背包，将鱼从河里运到家里。

So

所以

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

How do you think we evolved food choices and flavor preferences?

您认为我们如何进化食物选择和风味偏好？

I imagine humans that existed long before us being hungry, the gut starts rumbling and there are all these plants everywhere, some nuts and some berries and things.

我想象人类早在我们饥饿之前就已经存在了，肠道开始咕咕叫，到处都是这些植物，一些坚果和一些浆果之类的。

And so they had presumably no choice but to consume them and decide at the level of the mouth like, that's bitter.

所以他们大概别无选择，只能吃掉它们，然后在嘴里决定，这很苦。

No, that's not good.

不，那不好。

Maybe eventually cook those and see if that changes the relationship.

也许最终会把它们煮熟，看看这是否会改变我们的关系。

I'm thinking raw acorn versus cooked acorn, but that ultimately there was a lot of trial and error and that these neuro pod cells, which surely existed for a very long time prior to us, played a key role in discerning what's in these plants, barks, roots, nuts, berries we're setting aside meats for the moment and other animal proteins and making decisions about what's nutritious, what is safe, what is not safe.

我在想生橡子和煮熟的橡子，但最终还是经过了很多试验和错误，这些神经荚细胞肯定在我们之前存在了很长一段时间，在辨别这些植物、树皮、根、坚果、浆果中的成分方面发挥了关键作用，我们暂时把肉类和其他动物蛋白放在一边，并决定什么是有营养的，什么是安全的，什么是不安全的。

And that's a pretty complex process given that some things might taste okay, go down, but then you run into serious trouble later.

这是一个相当复杂的过程，因为有些东西可能味道不错，下降了，但随后你就会遇到严重的麻烦。

But given that critical importance of ingesting sufficient amounts of macronutrients and the need for micronutrients to survive on a day-to-day basis, much less reproduce propagate one imagines that this is almost as essential as breathing and that this path in our nervous system of the neuro pod cells to the brain for sake of decision-making of yum, yuck or meh is perhaps one of the most important core functions of the nervous system.

但是，考虑到摄入足够量的常量营养素的重要性以及日常生存对微量营养素的需求，更不用说繁殖了，人们认为这几乎与呼吸一样重要，并且我们的神经系统中神经荚细胞通往大脑的这条路径可能是神经系统最重要的核心功能之一。

Once you get past the elements that control, breathing, heart rate, temperature, regulation, things of that sort.

一旦你克服了呼吸、心率、温度、调节等控制因素。

I see it as among the senses, it's at least important as vision and perhaps more in terms of making sure that we survive from day to day.

我认为它是感官之一，它至少与视觉一样重要，也许更重要的是确保我们日复一日地生存。

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

That's correct.

这是正确的。

And here's where I think there is a large vacuum in biology.

我认为这就是生物学中存在巨大真空的地方。

If I will be with my biological, my training in biology, if I would put my hat of the training in biology, I wouldn't be able to explain much of how is it that we figure it out?

如果我将从事我的生物学，我的生物学训练，如果我将我的生物学训练帽子戴在生物学上，我将无法解释我们是如何弄清楚的？

Because even if you just go to a botanical, a garden here in the city, I would be really hard to figure out what plant is for what, right?

因为即使你只是去城市里的植物园、花园，我也很难弄清楚什么植物是做什么用的，对吧？

Yeah,

是的，

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

What safety, eat what,

什么安全，吃什么，

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

What's safe to eat, what is not do

什么可以安全吃，什么不可以做

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Need to cook it or

需要煮一下或者

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

Not.

不是。

Maybe like the cacti, you are able to figure that out by touch.

也许就像仙人掌一样，你可以通过触摸来弄清楚。

So from the biological perspective, I think that there is quite a bit in there to explore and to learn.

所以从生物学的角度来看，我认为其中有很多东西值得探索和学习。

There is some very interesting work from the anthropological perspective.

从人类学的角度来看，有一些非常有趣的工作。

So anthropologists and botanists that were studying the plants, were exploring the jungles, not only the Amazon, but Borneo, Sri Lanka and so on and so forth, and studying the interaction of native people with the plants.

因此，研究植物的人类学家和植物学家正在探索丛林，不仅是亚马逊，还有婆罗洲、斯里兰卡等地，并研究当地人与植物的相互作用。

And if going through the literature, that literature, there is a pattern that emerges, unlike the native people, they talk about how it is that they actually learn from the plants, that the plants were the ones that were teach them.

如果浏览文献，文献，就会出现一种模式，与当地人不同，他们谈论他们实际上是如何从植物中学习的，植物是教他们的。

So that's why I said from the biological perspective, how can we reconcile that?

所以这就是为什么我从生物学角度说，我们如何调和这一点？

I think that there is still quite a bit to learn.

我认为还有很多东西需要学习。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

What does that mean to learn from the plants?

向植物学习意味着什么？

I mean there's something that intuitively makes sense when you say that.

我的意思是，当你这么说时，直觉上有些东西是有道理的。

I've heard about looking at plants as teachers about the local environment when they're open, their light sensing when they're closed.

我听说过，当植物开放时，可以将植物视为了解当地环境的老师；当植物关闭时，可以将植物视为了解当地环境的老师。

But in terms of translating some of that to how humans have learned to navigate given environments, navigate meaning sort of thrive in those environments, how do we go about that?

但就将其中一些转化为人类如何学会驾驭特定环境、驾驭在这些环境中蓬勃发展的意义而言，我们该如何去做呢？

Does it mean taking plants, grinding them up and figuring out the constituent parts, or is that too reductionist?

这是否意味着将植物磨碎并找出其组成部分，或者这是否过于还原论？

Is that going to leave us with a parts list that doesn't mean anything?

这是否会给我们留下一个没有任何意义的零件清单？

Sort of like if I splayed out all the pieces of a car or an airplane in front of us, it doesn't really tell us anything about that, except what parts make up the thing that flies.

有点像如果我在我们面前展开汽车或飞机的所有部件，它并没有真正告诉我们任何相关信息，除了哪些部件构成了飞行的东西。

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

Yes.

是的。

And that's why I said this is more on the anthropological studies that have, especially from scientists that have gone there, learn the language, leave with the natives as natives, and then start to understand the dynamic of their culture and their interactions, then that's when, for instance, how it is that they classify plants.

这就是为什么我说这更多地是关于人类学研究，特别是来自去过那里的科学家，学习语言，像当地人一样离开当地人，然后开始了解他们文化的动态和他们的相互作用，然后，例如，他们如何对植物进行分类。

The way that they classify plants is several levels more richer than our classification or our scientific classification by the two name system or the variety.

他们对植物进行分类的方式比我们按两个名称系统或品种进行的分类或科学分类要丰富几个级别。

For instance, they take into account not only the flavor, but also the shape, the location, how they interact over the year, how they react over the year.

例如，他们不仅考虑味道，还考虑形状、位置、它们在一年中如何相互作用、它们在一年中如何反应。

For instance, there is this beautiful plant that people call it the lips plant.

例如，有一种美丽的植物，人们称之为嘴唇植物。

I don't know if you have, but if you Google it, you will see it looks

我不知道你有没有，但如果你谷歌一下，你会发现它看起来

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Like lips,

就像嘴唇一样，

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

Literally like lips.

字面意思就是嘴唇。

It has these red, beautiful lips like the plant.

它有像植物一样红色、美丽的嘴唇。

It just looks like lips.

它只是看起来像嘴唇。

And then people use it for a pain, for some rashes, skin rashes, and also in some rituals.

然后人们用它来止痛、治疗一些皮疹、皮疹，以及在一些仪式中。

And most of these plants, the way that the natives interact with the plants is in a sacred level, there is this respect for the plant.

而这些植物大多，当地人与植物的互动方式是在一种神圣的层面上，有这种对植物的尊重。

So yeah, I think that biologically, I think that there is quite a bit in there to understand and explore and define.

所以，是的，我认为从生物学角度来说，我认为其中有很多东西需要理解、探索和定义。

I do agree with you that just thinking about grinding it up and just putting it in a tip perhaps is to a reductionist.

我确实同意你的观点，只是想把它磨碎然后把它放进尖端也许是一个简化论者。

It could be a beginning of understanding, but it is reductionist.

这可能是理解的一个开始，但它是还原论的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It seems like nowadays in the field of biomedical research and clinical research that there's a lot of interest in plant-based psychedelics, LSD from ergot and O, psilocybin mushroom and so on and so forth, ayahuasca iboga.

如今，在生物医学研究和临床研究领域，人们对植物性迷幻药、麦角和 O 的 LSD、裸盖菇素蘑菇等等、死藤水 (ayahuasca iboga) 很感兴趣。

So it seems like science and plants have merged at that level in terms of clinical implications.

因此，就临床意义而言，科学和植物似乎已经在这个层面上融合了。

Of course, there are entire fields of plant biology that are extremely important.

当然，植物生物学的整个领域都非常重要。

I think most people probably don't realize this, but a lot of what we understand about circadian rhythms

我想大多数人可能没有意识到这一点，但我们对昼夜节律的了解很多

Grew, no pun intended, out of our understanding of plant circadian rhythms first.

没有双关语的意思，首先是出于我们对植物昼夜节律的理解。

And then it was translated to mammals, beautiful work by Steve K and others, seeing the circadian rhythms in leaf opening and orientation of the whole plant and other features of plants that are mirrored by the changes in arousal level in mammals, including us, which is why I'm always telling people to get sunlight in their eyes early in the day and to avoid bright light in the evening and nighttime.

然后它被转化为哺乳动物，史蒂夫·K和其他人的出色工作，看到了叶子张开和整个植物的方向以及植物的其他特征的昼夜节律，这些特征反映在包括我们在内的哺乳动物的唤醒水平的变化中，这就是为什么我总是告诉人们在白天早些时候让阳光进入眼睛，并在傍晚和夜间避免强光。

So what are your thoughts on plants as a source of medicine, psychedelic or otherwise?

那么您对植物作为药物、致幻剂或其他药物的来源有何看法？

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

I think that, well, traditionally that's where medicine was developed from.

我认为，传统上这就是医学的起源。

I was at the Oxford Botanical Gardens last year with the family, and we went into the gardens and have a beautiful garden.

去年我和家人一起去了牛津植物园，我们走进了花园，看到了一个美丽的花园。

It was established in 1621, I think it was the first botanical gardens in England, and they have a beautiful medicinal plant collection.

它成立于1621年，我认为这是英国第一个植物园，里面有美丽的药用植物收藏。

And there was this very humble what little sign with a description in there that said in there that about 80% of medicine still comes straight from plants.

那里有一个非常不起眼的小标志，上面有一个描述，上面写着大约 80% 的药物仍然直接来自植物。

Really?

真的吗？

Yes.

是的。

And if you think about it, it kind of makes sense, right?

如果你仔细想想，你就会发现这是有道理的，对吧？

Because when we think about the medicines that we have been able to develop, which are having phenomenal for, especially for certain chronic diseases, but we don't have a broad repertoire of it.

因为当我们想到我们已经能够开发出的药物时，这些药物具有惊人的疗效，特别是对于某些慢性疾病，但我们没有广泛的药物库。

So I think that has been obviously a great advance in our society that we have been able to identify the molecules, synthesize the molecules, package the molecules, render them bioavailable in specific sites.

所以我认为这显然是我们社会的一大进步，我们已经能够识别分子、合成分子、包装分子、使它们在特定位点具有生物利用度。

And I think that when we are able to couple that with the rest of the molecules, that the plants through their, I keep saying their wisdom because somehow they develop their ability to have not only one molecule, but a combination of other things that will provide the full experience of the plant.

我认为，当我们能够将其与其他分子结合起来时，即植物通过它们，我一直在说它们的智慧，因为它们以某种方式发展出不仅拥有一个分子，而且拥有其他事物组合的能力，从而提供植物的完整体验。

For instance, JBA is not only caffeine because it is very different than a shot of espresso.

例如，JBA 不仅仅是咖啡因，因为它与一杯浓缩咖啡有很大不同。

If you take the whole thing, it not only gives you energy, but it gives you a full range of an experience that is specific to the Y, which is a leaf, right?

如果你接受整个事物，它不仅会给你能量，还会给你带来Y（叶子）特有的全方位体验，对吗？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

It's a distinctly different subjective experience than coffee.

这是一种与咖啡截然不同的主观体验。

And I enjoy both coffee and espresso and y mate, you were the one who introduced me to Gua Gua, which

我喜欢咖啡和浓缩咖啡，你是第一个把我介绍给 Gua Gua 的人，

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

Is a costing of J mate, because jva mate is Iex para genis.

是J mate的成本计算，因为jva mate是Iex para genis。

Waa is Iex waa, and it is not as bitter as mate, but it has almost as much caffeine as coffee, and it has antioxidants and other compounds, which give you these very smooth experience.

Waa就是Iex waa，它不像马黛茶那么苦，但它的咖啡因含量几乎和咖啡一样多，而且它还含有抗氧化剂和其他化合物，这给你带来这些非常顺滑的体验。

So natives in the Amazon, they take a drink of Waa every morning around 4:00 AM between four and 6:00 AM Oh, they wake

所以亚马逊地区的原住民每天早上 4:00 左右在凌晨 4 点到 6:00 之间喝 Waa 哦，他们醒了

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Up early,

早起，

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

They actually call it, yes.

他们实际上称之为，是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

This is like Jocko Willink early.

这就像早期的乔科·威林克（Jocko Willink）。

Yeah, some people understand that joke.

是的，有些人明白这个笑话。

He wakes up every morning four 30, and he posts a picture of his Cassio watch.

他每天早上四点三十分醒来，并发布一张他的 Cassio 手表的照片。

Yep.

是的。

And he's already training four 30, so no guso required for Jocko,

他已经训练了四次 30 米，所以 Jocko 不需要 guso，

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

And they call it the Waa ura, the Hour of the Waa, and is ritualistic drinking of the Waa Waa in the morning, and where they talk as a family of the issues that they have had the days before or the weeks before, either with other communities within the family, if they have to reprimand or reprimand one of the children or talk to them about some mistakes that they're making.

他们称之为“Waa ura”，即“Waa 时刻”，是一种在早上喝 Waa Waa 的仪式，如果他们必须斥责或斥责一个孩子，或者与他们谈论他们正在犯的一些错误，他们会作为一家人与家庭内的其他社区谈论他们前几天或前几周遇到的问题。

And then they plan the full day of activities by drinking Waa.

然后他们通过喝 Waa 来计划一整天的活动。

And around five 30, because they will boil the Waa and they keep boiling the Waa and they just keep adding water to it.

大约五点三十分，因为他们会煮Waa，他们会一直煮Waa，然后不断地往里面加水。

And then around 5, 5 30, then they will have what is called is a bowl of chta.

然后大约 5、5 30，然后他们就会吃一碗 chta。

And Chta is this pound date very reaching lipids and fibers.

Chta 是这一磅枣非常富含脂质和纤维。

So they will have the waa because the Waa, they say that gives them energy, it heals any pain, it shuts down appetite.

所以他们会有瓦阿，因为他们说瓦阿可以给他们能量，可以治愈任何疼痛，可以抑制食欲。

So they will eat at 3:00 PM shuts down or modulates appetite,

所以他们会在下午 3:00 进食以关闭或调节食欲，

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

As does y mate.

和你的伙伴一样。

Those are one of the more potent effects actually of mate in Gua is a mild to moderate appetite suppression.

这些实际上是卦中马黛茶更有效的作用之一，即轻度至中度的食欲抑制。

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

And then if you combine that to Chta, which gives you the lipids, and then it's like a full meal for until 3:00 PM and then they go and now work in the fields.

然后，如果你将其与 Chta 结合起来，它会为你提供脂质，然后就像一顿丰盛的饭菜一样持续到下午 3:00，然后他们就去田里干活。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Interesting.

有趣。

So they're essentially starting the day with hydration, caffeine, and then what in some circles they call fat fasting, meaning consuming lipids in order to stave off hunger.

因此，他们本质上是从补充水分、咖啡因开始新的一天，然后在某些圈子里他们称之为“脂肪禁食”，这意味着消耗脂质以避免饥饿。

I mean highest density source of calories among the macronutrients.

我的意思是大量营养素中热量密度最高的来源。

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

And is a vegetable based diet, I guess you're right.

并且是以蔬菜为主的饮食，我想你是对的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Are they a healthy culture?

他们是健康的文化吗？

Do they live a long time?

他们活得很长吗？

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

I am not the, I should probably do more reading that.

我不是，我可能应该多读一点。

I'm not well educated in what are the studies that have follow up in the healthy status of the communities.

我对社区健康状况的后续研究了解不多。

But what I can tell you is that at least colloquially, I'll say that the diabetes, those type of issues are not as prevalent, but they do have, obviously through social exposure, they have other things.

但我可以告诉你的是，至少在口语中，我会说糖尿病，这类问题并不那么普遍，但它们确实存在，显然通过社会暴露，它们还有其他问题。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Fascinating this morning ritual of conversation about family and culture and what's needed planning the day.

今天早上的令人着迷的仪式是关于家庭和文化以及计划一天需要做什么的对话。

We had on this podcast as a guest, Dr. Sachin Panda, who is at the Salk Institute for Biological Studies, often known for his work on intermittent fasting, time restricted feeding, but also has done beautiful circadian biology.

我们以嘉宾身份出现在这个播客中，Sachin Panda 博士，他来自索尔克生物研究所，因其在间歇性禁食、限时进食方面的研究而闻名，而且还做了出色的昼夜节律生物学研究。

And he talked about the use of fireside chats, not the sort on stage, but gathering around fire at night is something that has existed in many cultures where people reflect on the previous day and discuss issues, social and work issues and dissect what's happened and talk.

他谈到了炉边聊天的使用，而不是舞台上的那种，但在许多文化中都存在晚上围炉边聊天的情况，人们反思前一天并讨论问题、社会和工作问题，剖析发生的事情并进行交谈。

And it's about building and repairing relationships.

这是关于建立和修复关系的。

Sounds like in this, what is this group?

听起来像这样，这个组是什么？

Is it a rural, is this Yeah,

这是农村吗，是这样吗，

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

Native community, because there are about 70 or so communities that have been documented in the Amazonia with their own language, with their own traditions.

土著社区，因为亚马逊地区大约有 70 个左右的社区，有自己的语言和传统。

And many of them share the same type of traditions.

他们中的许多人都有相同的传统。

And if you think about it like a podcast is one way of an evolution of that conversation where we can have this extended conversation and get these, the more primordial things, the ones that we have them in the prefrontal cortex right away and discuss about, well, this discovers these identifications, but then we get to the part of what does it mean for the whole community?

如果你把它想象成播客是对话演变的一种方式，我们可以进行扩展对话并获得这些更原始的东西，我们立即将它们放在前额叶皮层中并讨论，好吧，这发现了这些识别，但是然后我们开始讨论这对整个社区意味着什么？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah, there's doing, there's reflecting and then there's resting and recovering,

是的，有行动，有反思，然后有休息和恢复，

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

And there is something about leaving that for the next generation, right?

把它留给下一代是有好处的，对吧？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Passing on of lessons, better learn from the mistakes and successes of others if you can as you go forward.

如果可以的话，在前进的过程中，传承教训，更好地从别人的错误和成功中学习。

Very interesting.

非常有趣。

If we could, I'd like to now return to the biology, the nervous system.

如果可以的话，我想现在回到生物学，神经系统。

Absolutely.

绝对地。

And thank you for that voyage through some of your background in Ecuador.

感谢您通过这次旅程了解了您在厄瓜多尔的一些背景。

Fascinating.

迷人。

I do for a mug of guayusa, sometimes I'll mix the two, the loose leaf Yoruba mate and the gua.

我做一杯瓜尤萨，有时我会把两者混合，活叶约鲁巴马黛茶和瓜。

And as you said, what's, how

正如你所说，是什么，如何

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

Does it feel?

有感觉吗？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I really like it.

我真的很喜欢它。

Most of the time it's loose leaf yerba mate or co brew yerba mate.

大多数时候，它是散叶马黛茶或共同酿造的马黛茶。

But sometimes I'll mix in the gua leaves.

但有时我会拌入瓜叶。

And what I do like as you mentioned, is you can continue to pour water over them for many hours and it tastes different as the time goes on.

正如你提到的，我喜欢的是你可以继续在它们上面倒水几个小时，随着时间的推移，它的味道会有所不同。

And my guess is you're extracting different things from it in different concentrations as time goes on.

我的猜测是，随着时间的推移，你会以不同的浓度从中提取不同的东西。

I realize it's not a precise science.

我意识到这不是一门精确的科学。

It's interesting.

这很有趣。

Today we're talking about very precise neurons and methods of tracing neurons and sensing of specific amino acids and lipids at the level of the gut.

今天我们讨论的是非常精确的神经元以及追踪神经元和感测肠道水平的特定氨基酸和脂质的方法。

And then we're also going to more macroscopic view, a kind of broader scale view of the plants having many things that need to coexist in certain ratios that the plants have evolved to create for us.

然后我们还将看到更宏观的观点，一种更广泛的植物观点，其中有许多东西需要以植物进化为我们创造的特定比例共存。

So we're sort of straddling both ends of the continuum.

所以我们有点跨越连续体的两端。

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

And if I could fit in their story, no long ago I visited a friend, a native friend in a nearby town, and he produces some of the best chocolate, what I'll say in the planet, because actually the plants of the Broma cacao, it was recently documented.

如果我能融入他们的故事，不久前我拜访了一位朋友，一位附近城镇的本地朋友，他生产了一些最好的巧克力，我会说这是这个星球上最好的巧克力，因为实际上是Broma可可植物，最近有记录。

There was a paper in science not long ago that it was domesticated in Ecuador in near where I grew up, and they have done some tracing and genetic tracing, and so he produces some of the best chocolate, literally he harvested in there and then he roast it, grind it, and then he prepared it for us in there.

不久前有一篇科学论文说它在我长大的地方附近的厄瓜多尔被驯化，他们做了一些追踪和基因追踪，所以他生产了一些最好的巧克力，实际上他在那里收获，然后他烘烤它，研磨它，然后他在那里为我们准备它。

And he mix,

他混合，

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

The Swiss are saying the Belgians right, claim the best chocolate.

瑞士人说比利时人是对的，他们声称巧克力是最好的。

But now we know Ecuador is the place for the best chocolate.

但现在我们知道厄瓜多尔是最好的巧克力产地。

I think I just got a lot of Swiss and Belgians angry at me for saying that.

我想我这样说让很多瑞士人和比利时人对我感到愤怒。

But do they have a very dark variety?

但它们有非常深色的品种吗？

I like the extreme dark varieties.

我喜欢极端深色的品种。

95%, even a hundred percent chocolate if it comes from a really quality source can be absolutely delicious.

95%，甚至 100% 的巧克力，如果来自真正优质的来源，那么绝对是美味的。

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

It's like milk straight from the cow.

就像直接从牛身上挤出来的牛奶一样。

And what he did is he said, Diego, you have to try it with Waa.

他所做的就是他说，迭戈，你必须和瓦一起尝试一下。

And he mix the chocolate with waa

他把巧克力和waa混合在一起

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

As a drink,

作为饮品，

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

As a brew, as a drink boy, that will give you wings.

作为一个啤酒，作为一个饮料男孩，这会给你翅膀。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Gua hot

卦热

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

Chocolate.

巧克力。

Yes.

是的。

And it is a very smooth experience.

这是一次非常流畅的体验。

You're mixing these tea, which is for energy with chocolate of the best quality.

您将这些用于补充能量的茶与质量最好的巧克力混合在一起。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So we're not talking about eating chocolate and drinking tea.

所以我们不是在谈论吃巧克力和喝茶。

We're talking about melting the chocolate in the gua.

我们正在谈论在卦中融化巧克力。

In the gua.

卦中。

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

It was something like one of what kind, of course I couldn't sleep until 3:00 AM I think, right?

好像是哪一种，当然我想我要到凌晨 3:00 才能入睡，对吧？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

There's something to do.

有事要做。

Maybe this is why these groups drink the gua so early in the day.

也许这就是为什么这些群体一大早就喝卦的原因。

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

That's right.

没错。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

And I have to imagine I would need caffeine at 4:00 AM 5:00 AM otherwise I'd be falling back asleep.

我必须想象我在凌晨 4:00 和凌晨 5:00 需要咖啡因，否则我会重新睡着。

So back in the gut and nervous system in particular within the brain, we haven't talked about the brain so much, we can not talk.

回到肠道和神经系统，特别是大脑内部，我们还没有太多谈论大脑，我们不能谈论。

So the information from the gut is sent via these neuro pod cells up to you mentioned the no dose ganglion, such a cool name for a brain.

因此，来自肠道的信息是通过这些神经荚细胞发送的，直到你提到的无剂量神经节，这是大脑的一个很酷的名字。

And a ganglion in this instance is an aggregate of neurons.

在这种情况下，神经节是神经元的集合。

So it's like a batch of neurons that then send a connection into the brain.

所以它就像一批神经元然后向大脑发送连接。

What brain areas do they send it to?

它们将其发送到大脑的哪些区域？

And maybe we could describe these by name, but also by function, what they generally are responsible for

也许我们可以通过名称来描述它们，也可以通过功能来描述它们，它们通常负责什么

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

And probably should be prefaced with.

可能应该以 开头。

Ultimately we'll go to the entire brain.

最终我们将研究整个大脑。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Everything ultimately connects to everything like Google Maps, everything connects to everything.

一切最终都与一切相连，就像谷歌地图一样，一切都与一切相连。

But what are some of the primary recipients

但主要接收者有哪些

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

Of that information?

那些信息？

The first hubs of sensor integration are in the brainstem.

传感器集成的第一个枢纽位于脑干。

And for instance, the nucleus tractors.

例如，核牵引机。

Solitary is in specific region within the brain.

孤独位于大脑内的特定区域。

The coral is one area.

珊瑚是一个区域。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And NTS for those that don't know is involved in regulating hunger and appetite.

对于那些不知道的人来说，NTS 参与调节饥饿和食欲。

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

That's correct.

这是正确的。

Other functions perhaps.

也许还有其他功能。

But for instance, that seems to be an area of sensory integration for nutrients.

但举例来说，这似乎是营养物质感觉整合的一个领域。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And when we say drives hunger or appetite, sensory integration for nutrients, I mean, what would be great is if people could understand the language of the nervous system is chemical and electrical.

当我们说驱动饥饿或食欲、营养的感觉统合时，我的意思是，如果人们能够理解神经系统的语言是化学和电学，那就太好了。

So when these neurons are active, we tend to crave certain foods, seek them, literally go to the refrigerator among the different choices, go to that thing and select that and put it into our mouth.

因此，当这些神经元活跃时，我们往往会渴望某些食物，寻找它们，从不同的选择中走到冰箱前，找到那个东西，选择它，然后把它放进嘴里。

That's correct.

这是正确的。

So presumably it's driving reward systems, motor systems, I mean what we call hunger and appetite is really a kind of domino effect of a lot of different brain circuits.

所以想必它正在驱动奖励系统、运动系统，我的意思是我们所说的饥饿和食欲实际上是许多不同大脑回路的多米诺骨牌效应。

Do we know whether or not the nucleus, tractus, soli terrace projects to the areas of the brain involved in dopamine release and craving?

我们是否知道核、束、孤立台是否投射到涉及多巴胺释放和渴望的大脑区域？

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

Yes, and there has been some elegant work from several different neuroscientists in this area, like tracking the circuitry from there onto many other different areas.

是的，这个领域的几位不同的神经科学家已经做了一些出色的工作，比如跟踪从那里到许多其他不同区域的电路。

The hypothalamus, for instance, very basic behavioral functions and the stray AUM where there is dopamine release.

例如，下丘脑，非常基本的行为功能和多巴胺释放的杂散 AUM。

And then there is this pleasurable sensation and reward.

然后就是这种令人愉悦的感觉和奖励。

There is several other areas in there that are involved in this sensory integration.

还有其他几个区域涉及这种感觉统合。

There is quite a bit of work still to be done from, specifically from the neuro pods.

还有很多工作要做，特别是神经荚。

There is some evidence that they're connecting directly to, or if you put two papers together, it is obvious that they're connecting to some of these areas of dopamine release, basal ganglia in the brain, and that's why they're causing this reinforcing effect like in the lateral hypothalamus and other areas.

有一些证据表明它们直接连接到，或者如果你把两篇论文放在一起，很明显它们连接到多巴胺释放的一些区域，即大脑中的基底神经节，这就是为什么它们会像下丘脑外侧和其他区域那样产生这种强化效应。

I do think that ultimately there is quite a bit of a gap in different regions of the digestive tract.

我确实认为消化道的不同区域最终存在相当大的差距。

Today we just talk about the sugo, right?

今天我们就来说说sugo吧？

The sugo.

苏戈。

I think that still there is a little bit of work perhaps.

我认为也许还有一些工作要做。

I think that Steve Lili has worked in that area and other great neuroscientists doing some verifying detailed work in sensory biology and the esophagus sugo.

我认为史蒂夫·莉莉（Steve Lili）已经在该领域工作过，其他伟大的神经科学家也在感觉生物学和食道sugo方面做了一些验证详细的工作。

There is quite a bit of lack of precise biology in how it is that the sugo specific cells of the sugo are inated or making sense of the environment.

对于sugo的特定细胞是如何被激活或如何理解环境的，目前还缺乏精确的生物学知识。

Same thing for the stomach and how it is that ultimately each one of those regions are fitting into different regions of the brain.

对于胃来说也是如此，最终每个区域都适应大脑的不同区域。

Even then how each one of these valves, I'm fascinated by each one of the valves that we talked early on, like the gastroesophageal sphincter or the prose or the IAL junction.

即使如此，我对我们之前讨论过的每一个瓣膜都很着迷，比如胃食管括约肌、散文或 IAL 连接处。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

We should illustrate for people, I'm not an expert in the gut by any means, but what Dr. Borque is referring to is that the gut as it extends from the mouth to the rectum, is not just a series of tubes of different diameters, but rather they have valves, chambers, and these sphincters that cut off.

我们应该向人们说明，我无论如何都不是肠道专家，但博尔克博士指的是，肠道从口腔延伸到直肠，不仅仅是一系列不同直径的管子，而是有瓣膜、腔室和这些被切断的括约肌。

Everyone hears the word sphincter and they always think, oh, anal sphincter.

每个人听到括约肌这个词，他们总是想到，哦，肛门括约肌。

And then they ha, it's like elementary school, middle school humor.

然后他们哈，就像小学、中学的幽默。

But sphincters, they literally can close and open to varying extent in order to allow passage or prohibit passage from one compartment to the next such that certain things can take place over time in one region like the esophagus or within the stomach or before passing to other chambers.

但是括约肌，它们实际上可以在不同程度上关闭和打开，以允许或禁止从一个室到下一个室的通道，这样随着时间的推移，某些事情可以在一个区域（如食道或胃内）或在传递到其他室之前发生。

And so I hear you saying that critical processing is happening at each of these chambers.

所以我听到你说每个房间都在进行关键处理。

The sphincters are determining how long that processing occurs, and that distinct sets of neuro pod cells are likely detecting distinct qualities and quantities within the food, chemical qualities and quantities within the food and relaying that to the brain.

括约肌决定这种处理发生的时间，并且不同的神经荚细胞组可能会检测食物中不同的质量和数量、食物中的化学质量和数量，并将其传递给大脑。

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

That's correct.

这是正确的。

And here's something that since we're getting into the future of this area, and while there is not direct published evidence yet, I think that is going to be a fun area.

由于我们正在进入这个领域的未来，虽然还没有直接公开的证据，但我认为这将是一个有趣的领域。

So the gut, as the brain also generates these electrical patterns, those electrical patterns change depending on fasting versus feeding and circadian rhythms probably cannot realize jet lag.

因此，肠道和大脑也会产生这些电模式，这些电模式的变化取决于禁食与进食和昼夜节律，可能无法实现时差反应。

The gut is asking you for a burger at 3:00 AM and your brain is telling the gut, can you please go to sleep?

肠道在凌晨 3:00 向您索要汉堡，而您的大脑则告诉肠道，您可以去睡觉吗？

So these electrical patterns, these electrical waves that are going into, that are being propagated by the gastrointestinal tract.

这些电模式、这些电波正在进入胃肠道并传播。

There are several different cells, like the entera neurons are coordinating these cells.

有几种不同的细胞，例如肠神经元正在协调这些细胞。

There are also these interstitial cells of Cajal.

还有这些卡哈尔间质细胞。

So Santiago Ramonica Hall,

所以圣地亚哥·拉莫尼卡·霍尔，

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

The greatest neurobiologist of all time.

有史以来最伟大的神经生物学家。

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

That's right.

没错。

It was named after him.

它是以他的名字命名的。

He actually has, I think it's in the second volume of his classic book on the histology of the nervous system.

他实际上有，我认为这是在他关于神经系统组织学的经典著作的第二卷中。

One of the last figures talks about the innervation of the vli in the intestine.

最后一张图讨论了肠道中 vli 的神经支配。

Some beautiful.

有的很漂亮。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

For those that don't know, Kahal shared the Nobel Prize with Camille GOGI in 1906.

可能有人不知道，1906 年卡哈尔与卡米尔·戈吉 (Camille GOGI) 分享了诺贝尔奖。

They together developed tools and mapped the structure of the nervous system.

他们共同开发了工具并绘制了神经系统的结构图。

And it's to say that Kahal had supernatural levels of insight into the nervous system.

这就是说卡哈尔对神经系统有着超自然的洞察力。

He looked at the nervous systems of so many different animals in dead specimens.

他在死亡标本中观察了许多不同动物的神经系统。

The joke, even though it's not funny, is that many animal species entered his laboratory, very few walked out.

尽管不好笑，但这个笑话是，许多动物物种进入了他的实验室，很少有人走出去。

But by looking at fixed specimens under the microscope and then drawing them in select elements within them essentially came up with most of the major hypotheses about how the nervous system works.

但是，通过在显微镜下观察固定样本，然后将它们绘制在其中的选定元素中，基本上就可以得出关于神经系统如何工作的大多数主要假设。

Not just structure, but neuroplasticity.

不仅仅是结构，还有神经可塑性。

The failure mammalian, central nervous system neurons to regenerate.

哺乳动物中枢神经系统神经元再生失败。

This is why after traumatic brain injury or stroke, there's often loss of function that doesn't recover.

这就是为什么在脑外伤或中风后，通常会出现无法恢复的功能丧失。

Sometimes it recovers.

有时会恢复。

And that people who have injuries younger often can recover certain functions.

年轻时受伤的人通常可以恢复某些功能。

Everything from the direction of electrical flow through the nervous system, all from looking at tissue that was not alive, no electrophysiology, no behavioral experiments.

一切都来自电流通过神经系统的方向，所有的一切都来自观察无生命的组织，没有电生理学，没有行为实验。

Just raw but incredible, supernatural, seemingly levels of intuition and insight.

只是原始但令人难以置信、超自然、看似直觉和洞察力的水平。

Amazing.

惊人的。

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

Yes.

是的。

There is some quote in one of his books that when he got invited to one of his friends to England, I don't remember, it was a famous neuroscientist at the time in the late 18 hundreds who had helped him to expose his work to other audiences and invited him to England.

他的一本书中有一句话说，当他被一位朋友邀请去英国时，我不记得了，是当时18世纪末一位著名的神经科学家帮助他向其他观众展示了他的作品，并邀请他去英国。

So he said in there that it took like three months to go to that podcast.

所以他在那里说，花了大约三个月的时间才去看那个播客。

It was a three month trip.

这是一次三个月的旅行。

So he said that he brought his microscope

所以他说他带了显微镜

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

With

与

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

Him, of course, very in the room, he will be able to do some of these observations.

当然，他非常在场，他将能够进行其中一些观察。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Peculiar guy.

很奇怪的家伙。

Also known for carrying a very heavy iron umbrella in order to do physical exercise on the way to the lab.

还因在去实验室的路上携带一把很重的铁伞以便进行体育锻炼而闻名。

He was a very, very fit physical specimen.

他是一个非常非常健康的身体样本。

Also, purportedly, reportedly, I know, pick which one.

另外，据说，据报道，我知道，选哪一个。

A pretty gruff person.

是个相当粗暴的人。

Not terribly pleasant to be around.

周围并不是很愉快。

Ran a tight ship.

船很紧。

But in any event, so the cells of the gut are named after, some of them are named after Kaha, interstitial cells of Kaha.

但无论如何，肠道细胞都是以卡哈命名的，其中一些是以卡哈命名的，卡哈间质细胞。

Of Kaha.

属于卡哈。

There you just got a waltz into some neuroscience history, but critical history.

在那里，你刚刚进入了一些神经科学史，但是批判的历史。

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

So they have these eliminating electricity and so far these, and it seems like the sprinklers modulate the emanation of this electricity.

所以他们有这些消除电力，到目前为止这些，而且洒水器似乎调节了这种电力的散发。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Oh, like an instrument.

哦，就像乐器一样。

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

And you probably think like that because the intestine, and maybe here we get a little bit even deeper into this, and I read some work from a philosopher in the UK who was, and I'm going to paraphrase it very largely, so please don't quote me, but it is something along the lines that if we are what we eat, the place where food becomes us and we become food should be intestine because that is where food is actually absorbed.

你可能会这样想，因为肠道，也许在这里我们对此有更深入的了解，我读了英国一位哲学家的一些著作，我将对其进行大量解释，所以请不要引用我的话，但它的意思是，如果我们就是我们吃的东西，那么食物成为我们的地方，我们成为食物的地方应该是肠道，因为那是食物实际上被吸收的地方。

So that is a very fascinating point.

这是一个非常有趣的点。

Number two is that the food enters us at a frequency that it will modulate the entire body.

第二，食物进入我们体内的频率会调节整个身体。

Therefore the body through these electricity, these electrical waves should be in sync with also the electricity of the entire nervous system.

因此身体通过这些电，这些电波也应该与整个神经系统的电同步。

So I think that here's where in the future, I think that there's going to be a fascinating realm of understanding how it is that these waves of the body and the brain are synchronized with each other.

所以我认为，在未来，我认为将会有一个令人着迷的领域来理解身体和大脑的这些电波是如何相互同步的。

Because as we know, for instance, sometimes when we are hungry, we become hangry.

因为我们知道，例如，有时当我们饥饿时，我们就会变得饥饿。

We become irritated by the fact that we don't have food and perhaps is this dissonance in the emanation of the electrical waves between the digestive tract, the nervous system.

我们因为没有食物而感到恼火，这可能是消化道和神经系统之间电波发射的不和谐。

So I think that that is just one of the realms of how it is that the brain is connected to the gut at a more organ to organ level to be able to make us function ultimately because I, that's how we are integrating the outside world, the food into our entire system so we can maintain the entire organism.

所以我认为这只是大脑如何在器官与器官水平上与肠道连接的领域之一，以便能够使我们最终发挥作用，因为这就是我们将外部世界、食物整合到我们整个系统中的方式，这样我们就可以维持整个有机体。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Well certainly our level of alertness is linked to our level of anticipation and a lot of our food anticipation impacts our levels of arousal, AKA alertness.

当然，我们的警觉程度与我们的预期水平有关，而我们对食物的许多预期会影响我们的觉醒水平，也就是警觉程度。

So as you mentioned, we're a diurnal species, so in the middle of the night it's unusual to get hungry.

正如你提到的，我们是昼夜生物，所以在半夜饥饿是不寻常的。

A lot of these pathways are shut down, digestion is happening at different rates and typically our appetite is greater during the day than it is in the middle of the night.

许多这些途径都被关闭，消化以不同的速度发生，通常我们的食欲在白天比在半夜更大。

That's right.

这是正确的。

But in addition to that, it makes good sense to me that what is going on at the level of our gut is going to tell the brain, did we get enough nutrients from the previous day?

但除此之外，对我来说，我们肠道发生的事情会告诉大脑，我们前一天是否获得了足够的营养？

Are we in a place of abundance?

我们处在一个富足的地方吗？

There's also the psychological aspect of gut sensing and we haven't really touched on that.

还有肠道感知的心理方面，我们还没有真正触及这一点。

What are your thoughts as both a scientist and a human with a gut brain access on this notion of kind of gut intuition?

作为一名科学家和一个拥有肠道大脑的人类，您对这种肠道直觉的概念有何看法？

You meet certain people and it sort relaxes and warms you and you want to get to know them more.

你遇到了某些人，这会让你感到放松和温暖，你想更多地了解他们。

Other people, for whatever reason, you just feel like, I dunno, something doesn't feel quite right that we can sense things at the level of the body that inform our brain and no one really understands that process yet.

其他人，无论出于何种原因，你只是觉得，我不知道，有些事情感觉不太对劲，我们可以在身体层面感知事物，从而通知我们的大脑，但还没有人真正理解这一过程。

But we do know that the vagus nerve, which is a multi-pronged pathway, big pathway, it's probably its own major branch of the nervous system, really is sending bidirectional communication between brain and body.

但我们确实知道，迷走神经是一条多管齐下的大通路，它可能是神经系统的主要分支，确实在大脑和身体之间发送双向通信。

And presumably when we're around somebody or something that doesn't feel right, the Vegas is involved.

想必当我们周围的人或事感觉不对时，维加斯就会参与其中。

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

A few interesting things in that area in the work of Carl Leon talks about it, about the subconscious and how it is that we are accumulating all of these experiences that we have been passing through in life is not that they are not a store anymore, it's just that they are back in the subconscious and then ultimately they become part of this.

卡尔·莱昂（Carl Leon）的作品中谈到了该领域的一些有趣的事情，关于潜意识，以及我们如何积累我们在生活中经历的所有这些经验，并不是说它们不再是商店，而是它们回到了潜意识中，然后最终成为潜意识的一部分。

So-called intuition, we have this gut feeling that, and if we analyze some of the languages, I think that in past people have told me in so many different languages that there is this phrase for gut feelings in so many.

所谓直觉，我们有这种直觉，如果我们分析一些语言，我认为过去人们用很多不同的语言告诉我，在很多语言中都有这个表达直觉的短语。

For instance, I think Portuguese is free of the barga, like cold in the stomach.

例如，我认为葡萄牙语没有巴尔加（barga），就像胃里的寒冷一样。

You get a cold in Spanish, we call it like a pre feeling or pre sensation or feeling.

在西班牙语中，你感冒了，我们称之为预感、预感或感觉。

It will be more feeling if you translate that

如果翻译一下就更有感觉了

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

As if it arrives first.

就好像它先到一样。

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

Yes.

是的。

Before you're able to articulate it.

在你能够清楚地表达它之前。

So there is this storage in the entire body that gives you, depending on the context, it gives you a certain type of feeling.

因此，整个身体中都有这种存储，根据具体情况，它会给你某种类型的感觉。

And that's why we talk about intuition.

这就是我们谈论直觉的原因。

There's also this other aspect of how it is that food synchronizes that intuition.

食物如何与直觉同步还有另一个方面。

It seems to synchronize that intuition among two or more people.

它似乎使两个或更多人的直觉同步。

If you think about it, we have this ritualistic way of serving something when we commonly say or colloquially say, let's go for a cup of coffee.

如果你想一想，当我们通常说或通俗地说“我们去喝杯咖啡”时，我们有一种仪式化的服务方式。

And often what we mean is let's go and talk about business, the future resolve an issue, but we're talking about the cup of coffee and we have to share.

通常我们的意思是让我们去谈谈生意，未来解决问题，但我们谈论的是一杯咖啡，我们必须分享。

And people, I think that there are some psychologists that have ran some of these studies in which they say that if the food that we eat is more alike, we are more likely to connect at least on the moment.

我认为有些心理学家进行了一些研究，他们说，如果我们吃的食物更相似，我们至少在当下更有可能建立联系。

So there is this aspect and that's why we share the food.

所以有这个方面，这就是我们分享食物的原因。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Interesting.

有趣。

So is the idea that it's the actual chemical constituents of the food that's creating a common experience that then allows people to bond more readily?

那么，是不是食物的实际化学成分创造了一种共同的体验，从而让人们更容易建立联系呢？

Or is it that the specific constituents of the food are actually driving bonding per se?

还是食物的特定成分实际上推动了结合本身？

I mean, yeah.

我的意思是，是的。

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

And if we go back to if we are what we eat, then we eat the same thing.

如果我们回到我们所吃的东西，我们就会吃同样的东西。

We should be more alike to each other.

我们彼此应该更加相似。

That's why in communities you share the food.

这就是为什么在社区里你会分享食物。

In fact, if you go into certain specific communities, you pass around the food, you pass around the drinks and it's very common to share.

事实上，如果你进入某些特定的社区，你会传递食物、传递饮料，分享是很常见的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And certainly in romantic bonding there are many factors of course, but the more basic functions of food, sex and sleep represent the common places of bonding initially and conversation of course and values, et cetera.

当然，在浪漫的联系中，当然有很多因素，但食物、性和睡眠等更基本的功能代表了最初的联系、当然的谈话和价值观等的共同点。

Not to dismiss any of those, they're essential as well.

不要忽视其中任何一个，它们也是必不可少的。

But in terms of feelings of safety,

但就安全感而言，

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

That's right.

没错。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Feelings of communing with somebody, these very basic biological functions.

与某人交流的感觉，这些非常基本的生物功能。

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

And in business too, people, there has been a study in behavioral economists, they talk about how it is that the business are more likely to happen when they're made over food or launch or things like that.

在商业领域也是如此，人们，行为经济学家进行了一项研究，他们讨论了当他们通过食品或发布或类似的事情创造时，业务更有可能发生。

There's this synchronicity in the decision making and here is a third dimension on this area that it has not been well explored.

决策中存在这种同步性，这是该领域尚未得到充分探索的第三个维度。

But I suspect that in the near future it will begin to be explored.

但我怀疑在不久的将来它会开始被探索。

I read a while ago a very elegant paper from Walter Cannon, so you may want to expand on who Walter Cannon was, but one of the founding figures of the study of physiology.

我不久前读到了沃尔特·坎农 (Walter Cannon) 的一篇非常精彩的论文，所以你可能想详细介绍一下沃尔特·坎农 (Walter Cannon) 是谁，他是生理学研究的奠基人之一。

Yeah,

是的，

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Autonomic

自主性

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

Physiology, autonomic physiology, right.

生理学，自主生理学，对。

Chair of physiology at Harvard in 1920s, 1930s, author of the Wisdom of the Body, he has a paper or he published a paper I believe in the 1930s.

20、1930年代哈佛大学生理学系主任，《身体的智慧》一书的作者，他有一篇论文，或者我相信他在1930年代发表了一篇论文。

It's called Voodoo Death.

这就是所谓的“巫毒死亡”。

Voodoo Death.

巫毒死亡。

And I remember when I found that title, I was like, Ooh, this is something to see down and dissect.

我记得当我找到这个标题时，我就想，哦，这是值得一看和剖析的东西。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah, good title,

嗯，标题不错，

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

A good title

一个好标题

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

If you want somebody to read it.

如果你想让别人读它。

Good title and

好标题和

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

Essentially the gist of it, let me see if I can do a little bit of justice, but obviously I will chop most of the details.

本质上是它的要点，让我看看我是否可以公正一点，但显然我会砍掉大部分细节。

But the gist of the paper is that in some observations in some native tribe, I believe it was in Africa, that if young people, especially young youngsters, if they were frightened by a shaman that they will not perform a certain thing, a certain task, the in level of psychosis so to speak, that could cause death like the custom spell.

但这篇论文的要点是，在一些土著部落的一些观察中，我相信是在非洲，如果年轻人，特别是年轻的年轻人，如果他们被萨满吓坏了，他们不会执行某件事，某项任务，可以说是精神错乱的程度，这可能会像习俗咒语一样导致死亡。

And that's why it's called bud death.

这就是为什么它被称为芽死亡。

What cannon goes and describes is that is an activation of the vagus nerve and the peripheral nervous system that is a hyperactivation that is going through the subthreshold level of consciousness.

大炮所描述的是迷走神经和周围神经系统的激活，这是一种正在经历阈下意识水平的过度激活。

And that in some of these tribes, at least that's what he explains that is happening.

至少他解释说，在其中一些部落中正在发生这种情况。

And I believe that he did some experiments in some animals, but what he was saying is that these a hypertonic activation of the peripheral nervous system.

我相信他在一些动物身上做了一些实验，但他所说的是这些是周围神经系统的高渗激活。

When there are these spells that are casted by a member of the tribe that is in a higher or more superior or more influential position, that if the other member, especially if it is paired with something, if you say, if go outside and don't listen to what I just told you and you see a black cat, those two things match together and now and become superstitious about it.

当这些咒语是由处于更高或更优越或更有影响力地位的部落成员施展时，如果另一个成员，特别是如果它与某物配对，如果你说，如果出去而不听我刚才告诉你的话，你会看到一只黑猫，这两件事配对在一起，现在你会变得迷信。

But it is what Walter Cannon goes to explain is there is a hyperactivation of the peripheral nervous system.

但沃尔特·坎农（Walter Cannon）解释说，周围神经系统过度活跃。

Obviously there is probably more details in there, but the paper really highlights an area of exploration that we don't know about this threshold of subconsciousness of the nervous system, how it is driving us to have superstition to drive instinctively to go and consume certain things or behave in certain ways.

显然，其中可能有更多细节，但这篇论文确实强调了我们不知道的神经系统潜意识阈值的探索领域，它是如何驱使我们产生迷信，本能地驱使去消费某些东西或以某些方式行事。

Right.

正确的。

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So it sounds like it's paired association learning through statements, cognition, but that's enacted through the vagus in order to control the organs of the periphery.

所以听起来它是通过陈述、认知进行配对联想学习，但这是通过迷走神经来控制外围器官的。

That's nerd speak for if we hear and believe that certain events will cause certain changes in our physiology, they can in some instances become capable of that.

这是书呆子的说法，如果我们听到并相信某些事件会导致我们的生理机能发生某些变化，那么它们在某些情况下就能够做到这一点。

Eat this food at this location and you'll get sick, eat this food at this location, you'll feel better.

在这个地方吃这个食物，你会生病，在这个地方吃这个食物，你会感觉好一点。

That's correct.

这是正确的。

And it's learned association and ultimately it's physiological, but it sounds like it's subject to a lot of learning effects.

它是习得性关联，最终是生理性的，但听起来它受到很多学习效应的影响。

As long as we're talking about the vagus, I think it's a great opportunity to just mention that a lot of people understandably think that the vagus nerve activation is always about calming of the nervous system.

只要我们谈论迷走神经，我认为这是一个很好的机会来提及，很多人都认为迷走神经激活总是与神经系统的镇静有关，这是可以理解的。

And indeed it's the vagus is placed under the umbrella of a parasympathetic pathway.

事实上，迷走神经被置于副交感神经通路的保护之下。

But I think it's very important for people to know that both experimentally and clinically, if the vagus nerve is stimulated, you get exactly the opposite effect.

但我认为让人们知道，无论是在实验上还是在临床上，如果迷走神经受到刺激，就会得到完全相反的效果，这一点非常重要。

You get arousal effects.

你会得到唤醒效果。

This is commonly known in labs that do physiology of different kinds.

这在从事不同类型生理学的实验室中是众所周知的。

It's in the clinical context.

这是在临床背景下。

People with depression are sometimes treated with vagal nerve stimulators and it certainly isn't driving more sedation, more depression of the nervous system.

抑郁症患者有时会接受迷走神经刺激器治疗，但它肯定不会导致更多的镇静作用和神经系统的进一步抑制。

It drives alertness and arousal.

它可以提高警觉性和唤醒力。

So we have to, I think, make sure that we look at the vagus system and describe the vagal pathway as one that can both induce states of calm, of ease, rest and digest as it's sometimes called, but also states of arousal and alertness, even fear.

因此，我认为，我们必须确保我们观察迷走神经系统，并将迷走神经通路描述为一种既能引起平静、放松、休息和消化状态的通路，有时也被称为这种通路，也能引起兴奋和警觉，甚至恐惧的状态。

And so I think of the vagus as a superhighway of a bunch of different pathways with lots of inputs and outputs that's highly subject to learning.

因此，我认为迷走神经是一条由许多不同路径组成的高速公路，具有大量的输入和输出，非常需要学习。

And indeed the vagus can slow heart rate down through a number of things like long exhale, breathing.

事实上，迷走神经可以通过多种方式减慢心率，例如长呼气、呼吸。

Earlier we were talking about stress modulation, something my lab's worked on.

早些时候我们讨论了压力调节，这是我的实验室正在研究的事情。

Extend your exhales.

延长呼气时间。

That's the most basic way, physiological size two inhales followed by a full exhale to lungs empty.

这是最基本的方法，生理大小的两次吸气，然后完全呼气，使肺部排空。

These are core physiological mechanisms known to activate the vagus and lead to calming.

这些是已知可激活迷走神经并导致镇静的核心生理机制。

But the vagus, I look at the vagus as kind of including both an accelerator of sorts, accelerator based pathways in terms of arousal and brakes and probably our basal level of vagal activation reflects sort of the RPM of our system.

但是迷走神经，我认为迷走神经既包括某种加速器，也包括基于加速器的唤醒和制动路径，并且可能我们迷走神经激活的基础水平反映了我们系统的转速。

How much are very calm or we humming at a higher level of activity.

有多少是非常平静，或者是我们在更高水平的活动中嗡嗡作响。

Such an interesting pathway, such an interesting area of the nervous system.

如此有趣的通路，如此有趣的神经系统区域。

And we don't really understand yet.

我们还不太明白。

No, because even the major branches and pathways are just now finally beginning to be understood.

不，因为即使是主要的分支和途径现在才终于开始被理解。

We're on virgin beaches.

我们正处在处女海滩上。

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

Yes.

是的。

Right now that I hear you bringing up the humming, for instance, there is a branch of the Vegas that innervates the ear, the inner ear, and that's why it is belief.

现在我听到你提到嗡嗡声，例如，维加斯的一个分支支配着耳朵，内耳，这就是为什么它是信仰。

And I think that there is a little bit of evidence out there that how it is certain music that a certain frequency will calm you down because it is immediately it starts to make the vagus vibrate at a certain frequency.

我认为有一点证据表明，特定频率的特定音乐会让你平静下来，因为它立即开始使迷走神经以特定频率振动。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And humming has been linked to vasodilation, which is associated with a calming effect, whereas activation of the sympathetic arm of the autonomic nervous system or the kind of what sometimes is referred to as fight or flight, but it's involved in other things causes vasoconstriction.

嗡嗡声与血管舒张有关，血管舒张具有镇静作用，而自主神经系统交感神经臂的激活或有时被称为“战斗或逃跑”的情况，但它还涉及其他导致血管收缩的事情。

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

And if you think about it in several religious practices, there is the humming, right?

如果你考虑一下几种宗教活动，就会发现嗡嗡声，对吗？

There is the singing, there is the sound.

有歌声，就有声音。

The sound plays a big role in running.

声音在跑步中起着很大的作用。

There is a certain frequency that makes you, counts you more and makes you run better.

有一定的频率可以让你更加重视你，让你跑得更好。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Is that right?

是这样吗？

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

Yeah.

是的。

There is some evidence, at least among runners that they prefer a certain type of frequency for the running.

有一些证据表明，至少在跑步者中，他们更喜欢某种类型的跑步频率。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So a certain pace of running or breathing

所以一定的跑步速度或呼吸

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

And the sound specifically the sound.

还有声音，特别是声音。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

The sound of their feet.

他们的脚步声。

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

Yeah, no, the sound of the music.

是的，不，是音乐的声音。

If you play a certain music and probably the sound of their feet too, right?

如果你播放某种音乐，可能还播放他们的脚步声，对吗？

It has not been explored.

它还没有被探索过。

Right.

正确的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It's fascinating.

这很有趣。

So much of what I think about when I think about the nervous system is the fine grain processing of color of light, but when it comes to our feelings of wellbeing, our levels of arousal, sleep, et cetera, it's the rather, I don't want to call them crude because they're really sophisticated, they evolve to be sophisticated, but these kind of macroscopic signals like light coming in the morning has these long wavelength and short wavelength contrast.

当我想到神经系统时，我想到的很多东西都是光颜色的细粒度处理，但是当谈到我们的幸福感、我们的觉醒水平、睡眠等等时，相反，我不想称它们为粗糙的，因为它们真的很复杂，它们进化得很复杂，但这些宏观信号，比如早上的光，有这些长波长和短波长的对比。

That's what tells our brain it's morning.

这就是告诉我们的大脑现在是早上的原因。

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

That's

那是

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right.

对。

It's the orange, red, blue contrast.

这是橙色、红色、蓝色的对比。

Even if there's cloud cover, it's the difference between those two different qualities of light that says it's morning and when the sun is overhead, you don't see that yellow, blue or orange, blue, red, blue contrast, but you see it again at sunset and it informs.

即使有云层，这两种不同质量的光之间的差异表明现在是早晨，当太阳在头顶上时，你看不到黄色、蓝色或橙色、蓝色、红色、蓝色的对比，但你在日落时会再次看到它，它会告知你。

So it sounds like the combination of specific chemicals in the gut tell us this is good, pursue more of this and maybe even the place where you found it is a good place as opposed.

所以听起来肠道中特定化学物质的组合告诉我们这是好的，追求更多这样的东西，甚至可能你发现它的地方是一个好地方。

And the opposite is probably also true.

反之亦然。

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

Yes.

是的。

That's an entire new domain of the sensory system in the digestive tract that we haven't even begin to articulate yet.

这是消化道感觉系统的一个全新领域，我们甚至还没有开始阐明。

Memory.

记忆。

How do we remember what was that first meal like in the Ate movie from when we were children, right?

我们还记得小时候电影《Ate》中的第一顿饭是什么样的吗？

It was very different.

这是非常不同的。

I still remember some of the very simple humble meals that my mother will make, but it's just priceless for me whenever I go home without asking, sometimes my mother will prepare those for me and it's like it just brings you back when you were that age, right?

我还记得妈妈会做的一些非常简单简陋的饭菜，但这对我来说是无价的，每次我回家都不问，有时妈妈会为我准备这些，就像它让你回到了那个年纪，对吧？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

The memory system is tightly linked to taste and smell.

记忆系统与味觉和嗅觉紧密相关。

There's no question about

毫无疑问

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

It.

它。

And then how it is that the gut triggers those sensations or farther reinforces those sensations we haven't even begin to articulate.

然后肠道是如何触发这些感觉或进一步强化这些我们甚至还没有开始阐明的感觉的。

And when I say articulate, because we don't even have the language to refer to these things, that's why at the very beginning we were talking in our conversation about the axis and that we don't say the nose brain axis, we just went for what we had at that time.

当我说清晰时，因为我们甚至没有语言来指代这些东西，这就是为什么一开始我们在谈话中谈论轴，我们不说鼻脑轴，我们只是选择当时拥有的东西。

And I do think that the language we continue to evolve for us to be able to articulate more precisely, more richly, more elegant, more in so many different ways, how it is that the communicate with each other to make us who we are.

我确实认为，我们不断发展的语言使我们能够以多种不同的方式更精确、更丰富、更优雅地表达我们是如何相互沟通的，从而使我们成为我们自己。

And in there in one of our papers, we quoted these beautiful passages from the book memoirs of our stomach.

在我们的一篇论文中，我们引用了我们胃部回忆录中的这些美丽的段落。

It was greeting in 1853

这是1853年的问候

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

By a French

由一个法国人

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

By person, by what it says in the first page by the Minister of Interior because all of those who eat may read or something like that.

就个人而言，按照内政部长在第一页上所说的内容，因为所有吃饭的人都可能会阅读或类似的内容。

And then on page 21, it goes to describe the dialogue between the gut and the brain and it says like that, how it is that the gut communicates to the brain with a rapidity through these two sets of electrical wires that communicate the arrivals of the day as we may eat with the precision and rapidity to the brain so the brain will make its own feelings and impressions.

然后在第21页，它描述了肠道和大脑之间的对话，它是这样说的，肠道是如何通过这两套电线与大脑快速沟通的，这些电线将一天的到来传达给大脑，就像我们可以精确而快速地吃饭一样，这样大脑就会产生自己的感觉和印象。

And then he said that when it's talking from the perspective of the stomach, he says, when I grew more rose, meaning I'm not working in digestion, then the brain also grew irritable and petulant angry.

然后他说，当从胃的角度说话时，他说，当我变得更加玫瑰色时，这意味着我不进行消化工作，那么大脑也会变得烦躁和暴躁。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It's so interesting to look at human experience from the directionality of gut to brain rather than brain to gut.

从肠道到大脑而不是从大脑到肠道的方向来看待人类的经历是非常有趣的。

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

That's

那是

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right.

对。

And as I do from time to time, pay attention to what's happening in the landscape of wellness and mental health and physical health.

正如我时不时所做的那样，关注健康、心理健康和身体健康领域正在发生的事情。

A lot of what you see out there in terms of highly educated people who have thought very deeply about how to navigate decision making in lots of different domains of life and to do it in a way that really honors our own individual preferences and needs.

你所看到的很多都是受过高等教育的人，他们深入思考了如何在生活的许多不同领域进行决策，并以真正尊重我们个人喜好和需求的方式来做决策。

People like Martha Beck, I don't know if you've heard of her, but she exists, she has triple degreed from Harvard, but has talked a lot about learning to sense one's way into and through decisions, through intuition that is more of the body and is more of particular brain circuits than our analytic like pros and cons lists because pros and cons lists and obviously important metrics like objective metrics like oh, is this the right salary, the right location, the right, all the things that matter for decision making.

像玛莎·贝克这样的人，我不知道你是否听说过她，但她是存在的，她拥有哈佛大学的三学位，但她谈论了很多关于学习如何通过直觉来感知自己的方式并通过决策，这种直觉更多的是身体，更多的是特定的大脑回路，而不是我们的利弊列表之类的分析，因为利弊列表和明显重要的指标，如客观指标，比如哦，这是合适的薪水，合适的位置，正确的，所有对决策重要的事情。

And we're trained in that in school in the United States and in many areas of the world as well of course.

我们在美国和世界许多地区的学校接受过这方面的培训。

And that's critical, but that there's this other training, there's this other learning of self that can be extremely useful and it almost always comes back to body first, then to cognition and decision making.

这很关键，但是还有其他的训练，还有其他的自我学习，它们可能非常有用，而且它几乎总是首先回到身体，然后再回到认知和决策。

And I feel like modern humans are trying to learn to run the analysis of life decision making through this, I guess more ancient axis.

我觉得现代人类正在尝试学习通过这个（我猜是更古老的轴）来分析生活决策。

So again, the intelligence of these what used to be called more primitive systems, but I don't think they're primitive at all.

再说一遍，这些曾经被称为更原始系统的智能，但我认为它们根本不原始。

In talking with you today, it's clear to me that these are highly sophisticated systems just as sophisticated as any forebrain pathway involved in analyzing, say probability or something.

在今天与您交谈时，我很清楚这些是高度复杂的系统，就像涉及分析（例如概率或其他）的任何前脑通路一样复杂。

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

And that's why I like to highlight the example of having a nice meal and having a nice conversation at the same time.

这就是为什么我喜欢强调吃一顿美餐并同时进行愉快交谈的例子。

If you go to a nice restaurant and you have a nice meal while you're having a nice conversation and you pay attention to it, then it brings humility to your body to know how much your body's doing for you to be able to just express that tiny little bit and having some sort of highly intellectual, sophisticated conversation while you're able to put in the precise amount of lettuce inside of your mouth and chew it in the right way and adjust it with a little bit of water and maybe a little bit of wine and understand what is cleansing your palate and putting down the napkin and so on and so forth without going to the restroom.

如果你去一家不错的餐厅，吃了一顿美餐，同时进行了愉快的谈话，并且你注意它，那么它会给你的身体带来谦卑，让你知道你的身体为你做了多少事情，能够表达那一点点，进行一些高智商、复杂的谈话，同时你能够把精确数量的生菜放入嘴里，以正确的方式咀嚼它，用一点点水和也许一点点酒来调整它，并了解什么在净化你的身体。上颚、放下餐巾等等，无需去洗手间。

Every time that you feel like going to it, there is an entire sophistication of the body just to have something like a simple as a catch up conversation.

每当你想要去参加的时候，身体都会变得非常复杂，只是为了进行一些简单的谈话。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Do you think that our ability to sense into gut sensing more, to really hear and respond to the signals from the gut is something that we can learn even as adults simply by paying more attention?

您认为我们是否能够通过更多的关注来学习更多的肠道感知能力，真正听到并响应肠道信号的能力？

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

Yes, and I think that here's the concept of usually when we talk about topics like meditation is that self-care and that self-care is listening to your own body.

是的，我认为，当我们谈论冥想等话题时，通常的概念是自我保健，而自我保健就是倾听自己的身体。

How it is that the body is feeling like, I don't know, I grew up in a, my mother will tell me or family will tell you if you feel like going to the restroom and to pee for a bio break, don't hold it for too long because it might be bad.

身体感觉如何，我不知道，我是在这样的环境中长大的，我的母亲会告诉我，或者家人会告诉你，如果你想去洗手间并小便以进行生物休息，不要憋太久，因为这可能会不好。

And I think that just learning that part of listening to the body is an essential aspect.

我认为学习倾听身体的那一部分是一个重要的方面。

It's just that we're not constantly doing it over learning about how we are moving our career forward.

只是我们并没有不断地这样做，而不是了解我们如何推动我们的职业生涯向前发展。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So much of what we're taught in order to be high achieving and forward moving in life in modern culture is about learning to override the signals from the body.

在现代文化中，为了取得高成就并在生活中前进，我们所学到的很多东西都是关于学习超越身体的信号。

But it seems that learning to listen to the signals from the body is key to being a healthy human being.

但学习倾听身体发出的信号似乎是成为一个健康人的关键。

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

Yes.

是的。

And here I have an example, years ago I used to run quite a bit and I remember that after had ran a marathon, I took a break for a few weeks and then I got back on the trail and I began running and I was like, I don't need to warm up for three or four weeks up to get back into speed.

这里我有一个例子，几年前我经常跑步，我记得跑完马拉松后，我休息了几周，然后我回到跑道上，开始跑步，我想，我不需要热身三四个星期就能恢复速度。

And I remember that I started to feel like that my right, the sole of my right foot was a little bit bothering me, but almost imperceptible.

我记得我开始感觉我的右脚，我的右脚底有点困扰我，但几乎察觉不到。

And I was like, no, you just have to keep going.

我当时想，不，你必须继续前进。

My wife Elaine told me, you should pay attention, take a break.

我的妻子伊莱恩告诉我，你应该注意，休息一下。

And I just kept running.

我只是继续跑步。

And I remember specifically that one time I went to run and say, I can put in eight miles.

我特别记得有一次我去跑步时说，我可以跑八英里。

I think that I was running at like seven minutes, seven 15 a mile or something like that, and I began running.

我想我跑步的时间大约是七分钟，一英里七分十五左右，然后我开始跑步。

Then after a mile I was feeling pumped, two miles, three miles.

一英里之后，我感觉精力充沛，两英里，三英里。

I was like, and then I usually will go and do four miles and then turn around and come back.

我当时想，然后我通常会跑四英里，然后掉头回来。

I got a mile four and I fell crack and I could not walk anymore.

我跑了四英里，我摔倒了，再也不能走路了。

There was a hair fracture that is almost imperceptible in an X-ray, but boy, you cannot move your foot anymore.

有一根头发断裂，在 X 光检查中几乎无法察觉，但是孩子，你的脚再也不能动了。

I had to limp for four miles all the way back to the car because I didn't even have my phone and I never forgot that for next time, you got to pay attention to your body.

我不得不一瘸一拐地走了四英里回到车上，因为我什至没有手机，我永远不会忘记下次你必须注意你的身体。

Your body is simply telling you something is a little bit off, just don't keep pushing it.

你的身体只是告诉你有些事情有点不对劲，只是不要继续推动它。

And I specifically remember because I kept running and I had to literally limp all the way back to the car.

我特别记得，因为我一直在跑，而且我不得不一瘸一拐地回到车上。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Well, Diego, I must say that among the many things that you've shared with us today and taught us about the gut and its ability to influence the brain and the incredible things that are happening at the level of biology and physiology of the gut chief among them is the message that we should all pay more attention to our sensing at the level of our gut.

好吧，迭戈，我必须说，在你今天与我们分享的许多事情中，告诉我们肠道及其影响大脑的能力，以及在肠道的生物学和生理学层面上发生的令人难以置信的事情，其中最重要的是，我们都应该更加关注我们在肠道层面的感知。

And nowadays we hear so much about the gut microbiome such that fortunately I think most people are starting to appreciate that the gut microbiome is vital for all aspects of health and that there are things that we can do to feed that microbiome fiber intake, fermented food intake and so forth.

如今，我们听到了很多关于肠道微生物组的信息，幸运的是，我认为大多数人都开始认识到肠道微生物组对于健康的各个方面都至关重要，并且我们可以采取一些措施来补充微生物组纤维的摄入量、发酵食物的摄入量等等。

But clearly, based on what you've told us today that even just paying a little bit more attention to what our gut is telling us at the level of feeling good, feeling less good because the signs and signals are subtle, I realize can really help us make better decisions and help us decide not just what foods to eat or not eat, how much to eat or not eat, but also how to navigate higher order decisions, if you will, about who to spend time with, what to do, what not to do, moving along the decision tree of life.

但显然，根据你今天告诉我们的内容，即使只是多一点关注我们的直觉在感觉良好、感觉不太好方面告诉我们的东西，因为迹象和信号很微妙，我意识到确实可以帮助我们做出更好的决定，帮助我们不仅决定吃或不吃什么食物，吃或不吃多少，而且还帮助我们决定如何做出更高阶的决定，如果你愿意的话，关于与谁共度时光，该做什么，不该做什么，沿着生命的决策树前进。

And along those lines, I want to thank you for making the decision to come here today.

沿着这些思路，我要感谢你们今天决定来到这里。

I certainly am happy that we decided to do it.

我当然很高兴我们决定这样做。

It's something that's been a long time coming.

这是很久以前的事了。

I really see you as one of the true pioneers in this area of trying to dissect the understanding of the gut brain axis, heal the brain through the gut, understand and modulate our emotions at the level of gut sensing.

我确实认为您是这个领域的真正先驱之一，试图剖析对肠脑轴的理解，通过肠道治愈大脑，在肠道感知的层面上理解和调节我们的情绪。

And while there are other researchers in this area, I refer to you as a pioneer because you've really undergone this incredible trajectory from the Amazon through nutrition science into neuroscience.

尽管该领域还有其他研究人员，但我将您称为先驱，因为您确实经历了从亚马逊到营养科学到神经科学的这段令人难以置信的轨迹。

And now we're getting a little bit into psychological science and I'm excited for what comes next.

现在我们正在深入了解心理科学，我对接下来发生的事情感到兴奋。

I only ask one thing, which is that as you make these discoveries, that you come back and talk to us about them so that we can learn more about your incredible work.

我只要求一件事，那就是当您做出这些发现时，请回来与我们谈论它们，以便我们可以更多地了解您令人难以置信的工作。

Diego Bohórquez:

迭戈·博霍尔克斯：

So Andrew, I want to say a few things.

安德鲁，我想说几件事。

The first thing is that I feel deeply honored by your invitation, and thank you so much for the opportunity.

首先，我对您的邀请感到非常荣幸，非常感谢您给我这个机会。

I am just simply a representative of the people that work with me and work with us.

我只是与我一起工作并与我们一起工作的人的代表。

I'm just an ambassador and they get the majority of the credit for their dedication to help us understand a little bit more of the body and how it is help us to navigate the world that we live in.

我只是一名大使，他们的奉献精神帮助我们更多地了解身体以及它如何帮助我们驾驭我们所生活的世界，他们获得了大部分的赞誉。

So I want to thank you for the opportunity.

所以我要感谢你给我这个机会。

I want to thank the people that have made this possible.

我要感谢使这一切成为可能的人们。

Also the people that along the way or the institutions that along the way have a help fund this endeavor.

还有一路上帮助资助这项努力的人们或机构。

My home institution at Duke.

我的母校是杜克大学。

I'm deeply grateful because my career has developed there and some of my mentors, Roger Little Andrew Muir and the people that have helped me along the way.

我非常感激，因为我的职业生涯在那里发展，还有我的一些导师，罗杰·利特尔·安德鲁·缪尔（Roger Little Andrew Muir）以及一路上帮助过我的人们。

And then finally, I want to thank you and your team and congratulate you for the work that you do and that you have created this window for us to come and share with the public a little bit of the work that we do.

最后，我要感谢您和您的团队，并祝贺您所做的工作，以及您为我们创建了这个窗口，以便与公众分享我们所做的一些工作。

Perhaps some of that is obviously is based on evidence.

也许其中一些显然是基于证据的。

Some portion of that is thinking about the future, but I do think that through maintaining the dialogue with the public, that we can continue to understand the world that we live in.

其中一部分是对未来的思考，但我确实认为，通过与公众保持对话，我们可以继续了解我们生活的世界。

And for that, I have to thank you for having creating this platform.

为此，我必须感谢您创建这个平台。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Well, it's a labor of love and I'm honored to be able to do it and in no small part because I get to sit down and have beautiful, intimate conversations about biology and life with you.

嗯，这是一种爱的劳动，我很荣幸能够做到这一点，在很大程度上是因为我可以坐下来与你就生物学和生活进行美好而亲密的对话。

So thank you so much.

非常感谢。

Thank you.

谢谢。

Thank you for joining me for today's discussion about sensing with the gut and the gut-brain axis with Dr. Diego Borque.

感谢您今天与我一起与迭戈·博尔克 (Diego Borque) 博士一起讨论肠道感知和肠脑轴。

To learn more about Dr. Borque as a research and also to see a link to his fabulous podcast called The Astronauts, please see the show note captions.

要了解有关博尔克博士的更多研究信息，并查看他精彩的播客“宇航员”的链接，请参阅节目注释标题。

If you're learning from and or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel.

如果您正在学习或喜欢此播客，请订阅我们的 YouTube 频道。

That's a terrific zero cost way to support us.

这是支持我们的绝佳零成本方式。

In addition, please follow the podcast on both Spotify and Apple and on both Spotify and Apple.

此外，请关注 Spotify 和 Apple 上的播客以及 Spotify 和 Apple 上的播客。

You can leave us up to a five star review.

您可以给我们留下五星级的评价。

Please also check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode.

另请查看今天节目开头和整个节目中提到的赞助商。

That's the best way to support this podcast.

这是支持这个播客的最佳方式。

If you have questions for me or comments about the podcast or guests or topic suggestions that you'd like me to consider for the huberman Lab podcast, please put those in the comment section on YouTube.

如果您对我有疑问，或者对播客或嘉宾有意见，或者您希望我为 huberman Lab 播客考虑的主题建议，请将这些内容放入 YouTube 的评论部分。

I do read all the comments if you're not already following me on social media.

如果您还没有在社交媒体上关注我，我会阅读所有评论。

I am huberman Lab on all social media platforms, so that's Instagram X, formerly known as Twitter, LinkedIn Threads and Facebook, and on all of those platforms, I cover science and science-based tools, some of which overlaps with the content of the huberman Lab podcast, but much of which is distinct from the content of the huberman Lab podcast.

我是所有社交媒体平台上的 huberman Lab，即 Instagram X，以前称为 Twitter、LinkedIn Threads 和 Facebook，在所有这些平台上，我介绍科学和基于科学的工具，其中一些与 huberman Lab 播客的内容重叠，但其中大部分与 huberman Lab 播客的内容不同。

Again, that's Huberman lab on all social media channels.

同样，这是所有社交媒体渠道上的休伯曼实验室。

If you're not already following our newsletter, the Neural Network Newsletter is the Huberman Lab zero cost monthly newsletter.

如果您还没有关注我们的时事通讯，神经网络时事通讯是 Huberman 实验室的零成本月度时事通讯。

That includes podcast summaries as well as protocols in the form of one to three page PDFs.

其中包括播客摘要以及一到三页 PDF 形式的协议。

The protocols cover topics such as how to improve and even optimize your sleep, how to regulate dopamine, deliberate cold exposure, deliberate heat exposure.

这些协议涵盖的主题包括如何改善甚至优化睡眠、如何调节多巴胺、故意冷暴露、故意热暴露等。

We have a foundational fitness protocol that includes everything including schedules and sets and reps and cardiovascular training.

我们有一个基本的健身方案，其中包括一切内容，包括时间表、组数、次数和心血管训练。

We also have a neuroplasticity and learning super protocol.

我们还有神经可塑性和学习超级协议。

Again, all of which is available, zero cost.

再说一遍，所有这些都是可用的，零成本。

You go to huberman lab.com, go to the menu tab, scroll down to newsletter, and enter your email.

您访问 huberman lab.com，转到菜单选项卡，向下滚动到时事通讯，然后输入您的电子邮件。

And I should mention that we do not share your email with anybody.

我应该指出的是，我们不会与任何人分享您的电子邮件。

Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Diego Boez.

再次感谢您参加今天与迭戈·博埃兹博士的讨论。

And last but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.

最后但并非最不重要的一点是，感谢您对科学的兴趣。