Dr. David Yeager: How to Master Growth Mindset to Improve Performance

Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.

欢迎来到休伯曼实验室播客，我们在这里讨论科学和基于科学的日常生活工具。

I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.

我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。

My guest today is Dr. David Yeager.

今天我的嘉宾是大卫·耶格尔博士。

Dr. David Yeager is a professor of psychology at the University Of Texas at Austin and one of the world's leading researchers into mindsets, in particular, growth mindset, which is a mindset that enables people of all ages to improve their abilities at essentially anything.

大卫·耶格尔博士是德克萨斯大学奥斯汀分校的心理学教授，也是世界领先的心态研究人员之一，特别是成长心态，这是一种使所有年龄段的人都能提高自己在任何事情上的能力的心态。

He is also a world expert into the stress is performance enhancing mindset, which is a mindset that allows people to cognitively reframe stress.

他也是“压力是提高绩效心态”的世界专家，这种心态可以让人们从认知上重新构建压力。

And that when combined with growth mindset can lead to dramatic improvements in performance in cognitive and physical endeavors.

当与成长心态相结合时，可以显着提高认知和身体活动的表现。

Dr. Yeager is also the author of an important and extremely useful new book entitled 10 to 25, The Science of Motivating Young People.

耶格尔博士还是一本重要且极其有用的新书的作者，书名为《10 到 25》《激励年轻人的科学》。

The book is scheduled for release this summer, that is the summer of 2024, and we provided a link to the book in the show note captions.

该书计划于今年夏天（即 2024 年夏天）发行，我们在节目说明标题中提供了该书的链接。

During today's discussion, Dr. Yeager explains to us exactly what growth mindset is through the lens of the research into growth mindset, and he explains also how to apply growth mindset in our lives.

在今天的讨论中，耶格尔博士通过成长心态研究的视角，向我们准确地解释了什么是成长心态，并解释了如何将成长心态运用到我们的生活中。

He also shares the research from his and other laboratories on the stress can be performance enhancing mindset and how that can be combined with growth mindset to achieve the maximum results.

他还分享了他和其他实验室关于压力可以提高绩效的心态以及如何将压力与成长心态相结合以取得最大成果的研究。

So while I assume that most people have heard of growth mindset, today's discussion will allow you to really apply it in your life, not just from the perspective of you, the person trying to learn, but also for teachers and coaches.

因此，虽然我假设大多数人都听说过成长心态，但今天的讨论将让你真正将其应用到你的生活中，不仅从你这个试图学习的人的角度，而且从老师和教练的角度来看。

In fact, Dr.

事实上，博士。

Yeager shares not just the optimal learning environments for us as individuals, but also between individuals and in the classroom, in families, in sports teams, and in groups of all sizes and kinds.

耶格尔不仅为我们个人分享最佳的学习环境，还为个人之间、课堂上、家庭中、运动队以及各种规模和类型的团体分享最佳的学习环境。

Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.

在开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。

It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public.

然而，我的愿望和努力的一部分是向公众提供有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本消费者信息。

In keeping with that theme, I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast.

为了与这个主题保持一致，我要感谢今天播客的赞助商。

Our first sponsor is AeroPress.

我们的第一个赞助商是爱乐压。

AeroPress is like a French press, but a French press that always brews the perfect cup of coffee, meaning no bitterness and excellent taste.

AeroPress 就像法压壶，但法压壶总能冲泡出一杯完美的咖啡，意味着没有苦味且味道极佳。

AeroPress achieves this because it uses a very short contact time between the hot water and the coffee.

爱乐压 (AeroPress) 之所以能够实现这一点，是因为它在热水和咖啡之间使用了非常短的接触时间。

And that short contact time also means that you can brew an excellent cup of coffee very quickly.

较短的接触时间也意味着您可以很快冲泡一杯优质的咖啡。

The whole thing takes...

整个事情需要...

Only about three minutes.

大约只有三分钟。

I started using an AeroPress over 10 years ago, and I learned about it from a guy named Alan Adler, who's a former Stanford engineer, who's also an inventor.

我十多年前开始使用 AeroPress，是从一位名叫艾伦·阿德勒 (Alan Adler) 的人那里了解到的，他是前斯坦福大学工程师，也是一位发明家。

He developed things like the Arobi Frisbee.

他开发了像阿罗比飞盘这样的东西。

In any event, I'm a big fan of Adler inventions.

无论如何，我是阿德勒发明的忠实粉丝。

And when I heard he developed a coffee maker, the AeroPress, I tried it, and I found that, indeed, it makes the best possible tasting cup of coffee.

当我听说他开发了一款咖啡机爱乐压 (AeroPress) 时，我尝试了一下，发现它确实可以煮出一杯味道最好的咖啡。

It's also extremely small and portable, so I started using it in the laboratory, when I travel on the road, and also at home.

它也非常小且便于携带，所以我开始在实验室、路上旅行以及家里使用它。

And I'm not alone in my love of the AeroPress coffee maker.

我并不是唯一一个热爱爱乐压咖啡机的人。

With over 55,000 five-star reviews, AeroPress is the best reviewed coffee press in the world.

AeroPress 拥有超过 55,000 条五星级评价，是世界上评价最好的咖啡机。

If you'd like to try AeroPress, you can go to AeroPress.com slash Huberman to get 20% off.

如果您想尝试 AeroPress，可以访问 AeroPress.comlash Huberman 以获得 20% 的折扣。

AeroPress currently ships in the USA, Canada, and to over 60 other countries around the world.

目前，爱乐压 (AeroPress) 向美国、加拿大以及全球其他 60 多个国家/地区发货。

Again, that's AeroPress.com slash Huberman.

这又是 AeroPress.com 的斜线 Huberman。

Today's episode is also brought to us by ROKA.

今天的节目也是ROKA给我们带来的。

ROKA makes eyeglasses and sunglasses that are the absolute highest quality.

ROKA 生产绝对最高品质的眼镜和太阳镜。

Now I've spent a lifetime working on the biology of the visual system.

现在我花了一生的时间研究视觉系统的生物学。

And I can tell you that your visual system has to contend with an enormous number of different challenges in order for you to be able to see clearly.

我可以告诉你，你的视觉系统必须应对大量不同的挑战，才能让你看得清楚。

ROKA understands this and has developed their eyeglasses and sunglasses so that regardless of the conditions you're in, you always see with the utmost clarity.

ROKA 深知这一点，并开发了眼镜和太阳镜，以便无论您处于什么条件下，您都能看得最清楚。

ROKA eyeglasses and sunglasses were initially designed for use in sport, in particular things like running and cycling.

ROKA 眼镜和太阳镜最初设计用于运动，特别是跑步和骑自行车等运动。

Now as a consequence, ROKA frames are extremely lightweight, so much so that most of the time you don't even remember that they're on your face.

因此，ROKA 镜架非常轻巧，以至于大多数时候您甚至不记得它们戴在脸上。

They're also designed so that they don't slip off if you get sweaty.

它们还经过精心设计，即使出汗也不会滑落。

Now, even though they were initially designed for performance in sport, they now have many different frames and styles, all of which can be used in sport, but also when out to dinner, at work, essentially anytime and in any setting.

现在，尽管它们最初是为运动性能而设计的，但现在它们有许多不同的框架和款式，所有这些都可以在运动中使用，而且也可以在外出就餐、工作时使用，基本上可以在任何时间和任何环境下使用。

If you'd like to try ROKA glasses, you can go to ROKA, that's R-O-K-A.

如果你想尝试ROKA眼镜，可以去ROKA，那就是R-O-K-A。

Com and enter the code Huberman to get 20% off.

com 并输入代码 Huberman 可享受 20% 的折扣。

Again, that's R-O-K-A.

再说一次，那是 R-O-K-A。

Com and enter the code Huberman to get 20% off.

com 并输入代码 Huberman 可享受 20% 的折扣。

And now for my discussion, with Dr. David Yeager.

现在我与大卫·耶格尔博士进行讨论。

Dr. David Yeager, welcome.

大卫·耶格尔博士，欢迎光临。

Thanks for having me.

谢谢你有我。

Can you tell us your definition of growth mindset?

您能告诉我们您对成长心态的定义吗？

I think most people have heard of it.

我想大多数人都听说过。

They have some sense of what it is, but you've worked very intensely on growth mindset for a number of years.

他们对成长心态有一定的了解，但多年来你一直在努力发展成长心态。

So I'd love to know how you define it.

所以我很想知道你是如何定义它的。

Yeah, so it's simply the belief that your abilities or your potential in some domain can change.

是的，所以这只是相信你在某些领域的能力或潜力可以改变。

A huge confusion is people think it means if you try hard, then you can do anything.

一个巨大的困惑是人们认为这意味着如果你努力尝试，那么你可以做任何事情。

But that's not really the idea.

但这并不是真正的想法。

It's simply that...

简单来说就是...

Under the right conditions, with the right support, change is possible.

在适当的条件下，在适当的支持下，改变是可能的。

And that ends up being a pretty powerful idea because the opposite is so stressful.

这最终成为一个非常强大的想法，因为相反的想法压力很大。

The idea that you...

这个想法是你...

Are static.

是静态的。

Nothing about you can change is really kind of a stressful idea.

你的一切都无法改变，这确实是一个压力很大的想法。

Of all the studies on growth mindset, including yours.

所有关于成长心态的研究，包括你的。

Ones that you've participated in.

那些你参加过的。

What one or two...

什么一两个...

Kind of high level results stand out to you as the most striking, surprising, exciting, or meaningful.

高水平的结果对你来说是最引人注目的、令人惊讶的、令人兴奋的或有意义的。

And here I will encourage you to discard with attribution.

在这里我会鼓励你放弃归因。

We know that, or everyone should know that Carol Dweck is the originator of the growth mindset idea as a field, and she deserves tremendous credit for that.

我们知道这一点，或者每个人都应该知道，卡罗尔·德韦克（Carol Dweck）是成长心态这一领域的创始人，她为此值得巨大的赞誉。

So when you stand back from the field, given that it's mushroomed into this very large field now.

因此，当你远离这个领域时，考虑到它现在已经如雨后春笋般发展成这个非常大的领域。

And you look at that research, which results kind of stand out as like, wow, that's really cool, really meaningful.

你看看这项研究，结果有点突出，哇，这真的很酷，真的很有意义。

People should know about that.

人们应该知道这一点。

What stands out to me a lot, first of all, is just the field experiments.

首先，对我来说最引人注目的是现场实验。

The idea that you can distill.

你可以提炼的想法。

A complex idea about the brain, about malleability, you can give it to a young person at a time when they're vulnerable and that that can give them hope and then they can do better at school or whatever.

一个关于大脑、关于可塑性的复杂想法，你可以在年轻人脆弱的时候把它传授给他们，这可以给他们带来希望，然后他们可以在学校或其他方面做得更好。

So our 2019 paper in Nature that Carol, Greg Walton, Angela Duckworth, a lot of us collaborated on, took a very short growth mindset intervention, two sessions, about 25 minutes each for ninth graders, and we found kids were...

因此，我们 2019 年在《自然》杂志上发表的论文，由卡罗尔、格雷格·沃尔顿、安吉拉·达克沃斯和我们很多人合作完成，对九年级学生进行了非常短的成长心态干预，两次会议，每次大约 25 分钟，我们发现孩子们……

Eight, nine months later, more likely to get good grades.

八、九个月后，取得好成绩的可能性更大。

By 10th grade, more likely to be in the hard math classes.

到了十年级，更有可能参加硬数学课。

And the unpublished results find effects four years later on graduating high school with college-ready courses from a short intervention that happened, you know, just one or two times, no reinforcement.

未发表的结果发现，四年后，短期干预对高中毕业并提供大学准备课程产生了影响，你知道，这种干预只发生一两次，没有强化。

So there's a lot of reasons why that's true.

所以有很多理由证明这是真的。

That sounds magical and outrageous, and there are a lot of mechanisms.

这听起来很神奇，也很离谱，而且有很多机制。

But that just demonstrates the overall value of the phenomenon.

但这只是证明了这种现象的整体价值。

And in that study, we did everything we possibly could to address legitimate skepticism, right?

在这项研究中，我们尽一切努力来消除合理的怀疑，对吗？

Are we collecting and processing the data in ways that could bias it?

我们收集和处理数据的方式是否会导致数据产生偏差？

No, third party.

不，第三方。

Are we handpicking schools where you could get the best effects?

我们是否精心挑选了可以让您获得最佳效果的学校？

No, random sample of schools.

不，学校的随机样本。

Did we post-hoc decide on the analyses that would make the results look the greatest?

我们是否事后决定进行哪些分析以使结果看起来最好？

No, pre-registered.

不，是预先登记的。

So that's a good like, okay, this phenomenon is not.

所以这很好，好吧，这种现象不是。

Something that falls apart in the hands of anyone else besides a select few researchers.

除了少数研究人员之外，其他人手中的东西就会崩溃。

That's really, and we can go into that.

确实如此，我们可以深入探讨这一点。

But that doesn't explain the mechanisms.

但这并不能解释其机制。

And I think that...

我认为...

There are a lot of interesting growth mindset mechanism studies.

有很多有趣的成长心态机制研究。

My personal favorite is a very underappreciated.

我个人最喜欢的是一个非常被低估的。

Kind of like indie rock study by David Neusbaum and Carol Dweck.

有点像 David Neusbaum 和 Carol Dweck 的独立摇滚研究。

That David did when he was a graduate student at Stanford.

大卫在斯坦福大学读研究生时就这么做了。

It's on defensiveness versus remediation.

这是防御与补救的关系。

And the basic idea is, in a fixed mindset, the idea that your intelligence cannot change, you are the way you are, it can't change.

其基本思想是，在固定型思维模式中，你的智力无法改变，你就是你本来的样子，它无法改变。

Your goal in that fixed mindset is to defend your ego.

在这种固定心态中，你的目标是捍卫你的自我。

To like hide your deficiencies or any flaws.

喜欢隐藏自己的缺点或任何缺陷。

Because if they're fixed and then they're revealed, then it labels you for life in some way as less than, shameworthy, et cetera, right?

因为如果它们被修复然后又被揭露，那么它就会在某种程度上给你一生贴上“不合格”、“可耻”等等的标签，对吗？

In a growth mindset though, a mistake is like part of the process.

然而，在成长心态中，错误就像过程的一部分。

It's just an opportunity to grow.

这只是一个成长的机会。

So...

所以...

David took that idea and then set up a study.

大卫接受了这个想法，然后开展了一项研究。

And I think I have the details right, where undergraduates did a task, they all did poorly, they were getting 20, 30% correct on this task.

我认为我的细节是正确的，本科生完成一项任务时，他们都做得很差，他们在这项任务上得到了 20%、30% 的正确率。

And the question is, what do you do before you do your second try?

问题是，在第二次尝试之前你会做什么？

How do you cope with that initial failure?

你如何应对最初的失败？

And he found that both fixed and mindset participants wanted to recover their self-esteem.

他发现固定型思维模式和思维模式型参与者都希望恢复自尊。

So you do poorly, you feel like crap, what am I going to do to feel better about myself?

所以你做得很差，你感觉很糟糕，我该怎么做才能让自己感觉更好？

In a fixed mindset.

处于固定心态。

They looked downward.

他们向下看。

So the people getting a 25, look at the people who got a 12.

所以那些得到 25 分的人，看看那些得到 12 分的人。

Like, I'm twice as good as these losers, right?

比如说，我比这些失败者强一倍，对吗？

In a growth mindset, they look at the people getting an 85 or 90.

在成长心态中，他们关注的是获得 85 或 90 分的人。

What are they doing?

他们在做什么？

What are their strategies?

他们的策略是什么？

How can I improve?

我该如何改进？

Both of them then recovered self-esteem and looked the same at post-test.

随后，两人都恢复了自尊，在测试后看起来也一样。

And I think about that a lot, like how often in our society.

我经常思考这个问题，就像我们社会中经常思考的那样。

Does something happen to us and we feel like garbage and you have a choice?

我们是否发生了什么事，感觉自己像垃圾，而你有选择？

Like, am I going to look down on other people and say, at least I'm not as bad as these losers?

就像，我会瞧不起其他人并说，至少我没有这些失败者那么糟糕吗？

Or am I going to say, like, how am I going to get better?

或者我会说，比如，我怎样才能变得更好？

And I love that because think of a ninth grader who bombs their algebra test.

我喜欢这个，因为想想一个九年级学生的代数考试失败了。

Am I like a no good dumb at math loser who's not going anywhere in life?

我是不是像一个数学失败者，在生活中一事无成？

Well at least I'm not that burnt out.

好吧，至少我没有那么疲惫不堪。

Right?

正确的？

Or is it like...

或者说是像...

How is anyone getting an A in this class?

怎么有人在这门课上获得A？

I'm not getting an A.

我没有得到A。

What's happening?

发生什么事了？

What can I learn from them?

我能从他们身上学到什么？

So the openness and willingness to...

因此，开放性和意愿...

Self-improve.

自我提升。

I think is the underwriting mechanism.

我认为是承销机制。

And hardly anyone cites that study, but I think about it all the time.

几乎没有人引用这项研究，但我一直在思考它。

And it's the kind of thing that I like.

这正是我喜欢的事情。

If I'm being honest, that's the mindset I want my kids to have as they go through life.

老实说，这就是我希望我的孩子在一生中拥有的心态。

Very interesting.

非常有趣。

I'm going to ask you more about this looking down or looking up in terms of performance.

我会问你更多关于性能方面的向下或向上的问题。

But before I do that, I have questions about these brief.

但在此之前，我对这些简报有疑问。

25 minute, I think you said, interventions?

25 分钟，我想你是说，干预？

Yeah, sometimes 25.

是的，有时是25。

Sometimes we do two sessions each about 20, 25.

有时我们会进行两次会议，每次大约 20 点、25 点。

Yeah.

是的。

Can you give us a sense of what those interventions look like?

您能否让我们了解一下这些干预措施是什么样的？

I mean, it's incredible.

我的意思是，这太不可思议了。

These two sessions have positive effects lasting up to four years and perhaps even beyond.

这两届会议的积极影响可持续四年甚至更长。

Yeah.

是的。

Maybe just a top contour of some of what these kids hear during those sessions.

也许只是这些孩子在这些课程中听到的一些内容的大致轮廓。

Yeah, I mean, so the first thing to realize is that they're short and they have to do two things in order to have long lasting effects.

是的，我的意思是，所以首先要认识到它们很短，而且必须做两件事才能产生持久的效果。

One is I have to convince you to think differently at the end of the session.

一是我必须说服你在会议结束时有不同的想法。

So I just have to persuade you over the course of 25 minutes to have a different mindset.

所以我只需要在 25 分钟内说服你改变心态即可。

That's sometimes hard.

这有时很难。

But then even if I do that, you then might have months or years between when I did that and when the outcome is measured.

但即使我这样做了，从我这样做到测量结果之间也可能有数月或数年的时间。

So how could you remember it and apply it?

那么你如何记住它并应用它呢？

And how many 25-minute experiences in your life do you have no recollection of?

你的一生中有多少25分钟的经历是你不记得的？

I have lots.

我有很多。

So I think People are skeptical of the mindset style of interventions for two different, I think, legitimate reasons.

因此，我认为人们对干预的心态方式持怀疑态度，我认为有两个不同的合理原因。

I remember a very famous statistician came to my office at UT Austin and was like, I just don't understand these interventions.

我记得一位非常著名的统计学家来到我在德州大学奥斯汀分校的办公室，他说，我只是不明白这些干预措施。

I mean, the other day I spent 25 minutes telling my son all the things he has to change and like, oh, he's doing everything wrong.

我的意思是，前几天我花了 25 分钟告诉我儿子他必须改变的所有事情，然后说，哦，他做的一切都是错的。

And he didn't remember it five minutes later.

五分钟后他就不记得了。

How could someone remember your thing four years later?

四年后怎么会有人记得你的事情？

And I was like, did you hear yourself talking?

我当时想，你听到自己说话了吗？

Like, I'm sure the way you talk to yourself is like.

就像，我确信你对自己说话的方式是这样的。

Totally condescending and bad.

完全是居高临下和不好的。

So the first step is in that 25 minutes.

所以第一步就是在那 25 分钟内。

How are you communicating in a way where someone's ears are open?

您如何以倾听别人的耳朵的方式进行交流？

Where they're not feeling talked down to, ashamed, humiliated, etc.

他们不会感到被人贬低、羞愧、羞辱等。

But then the second step is saying that to you at a time when it's possible for there to be a, what we call a recursive process or a snowball effect that's going to happen over time.

但第二步是在有可能出现我们所说的递归过程或雪球效应的时候对你说，随着时间的推移，这种效应将会发生。

So that's the stage setting.

这就是舞台设置。

Okay.

好的。

So now let's take the first part, 25 minutes.

现在我们来看第一部分，25 分钟。

What am I going to say to you?

我要对你说什么？

Right.

正确的。

There are three big things that are in every.

每一个都包含三件大事。

Intervention.

干涉。

And the term that Greg Walton, a Stanford professor, colleague, collaborator, uses is wise interventions.

斯坦福大学教授、同事、合作者格雷格·沃尔顿使用的术语是“明智的干预”。

That's the umbrella term of which growth mindset is one.

这是成长心态的总称。

And a good one, but it's just one of many.

这是一件好事，但这只是众多之一。

For wise interventions, we often do the following three things.

为了进行明智的干预，我们经常做以下三件事。

First is we present some new scientific information, some idea that almost in like a Gladwell way is not...

首先，我们提出一些新的科学信息，一些几乎以格拉德威尔的方式不是......

Is not obvious and intuitive to the reader, but feels like new information.

对于读者来说并不明显和直观，但感觉像是新信息。

And useful information.

和有用的信息。

So the first is a scientific.

所以第一是科学的。

The second is we present participants with stories from people like them who've used those ideas in their lives and found them useful.

其次，我们向参与者展示来自像他们这样的人的故事，他们在生活中使用了这些想法并发现它们很有用。

So in the concrete case of ninth graders getting growth mindset, it's like 10th, 11th, 12th graders who previously felt dumb.

因此，在九年级学生获得成长心态的具体案例中，就像十年级、十一年级、十二年级学生以前感到愚蠢一样。

Learned a growth mindset, then felt better.

学会了成长心态，然后感觉好多了。

It's more complicated than that.

事情比那更复杂。

That's the basic idea.

这就是基本的想法。

And last, we don't just tell them the stories.

最后，我们不只是给他们讲故事。

We ask, third, for participants to author a story.

第三，我们要求参与者创作一个故事。

So they write a narrative about a time when they struggled, a time when they doubted themselves, and then remembered this idea that people can change, like my brain can grow, et cetera.

因此，他们写了一篇关于他们挣扎的时期、怀疑自己的时期的叙述，然后记住了人们可以改变的想法，就像我的大脑可以成长等等。

So the three points are scientific information, stories, or the technical term is descriptive norms.

所以这三点是科学信息、故事，或者技术术语是描述性规范。

So you're giving people...

所以你给人们...

Information about what's normal for people like you.

有关像您这样的人的正常行为的信息。

And then the third is the writing, which we call saying is believing, which is a term that's a popularized version of the term that came from classic social psychologists, Josh Aronson, Elliot Aronson, who found in the work on cognitive dissonance 30, 40 years ago, that one of the best ways to change someone's mind about something is to ask them to try to persuade somebody else.

第三个是写作，我们称之为“相信”，这个术语是这个术语的流行版本，来自经典社会心理学家乔什·阿伦森（Josh Aronson）、埃利奥特·阿伦森（Elliot Aronson），他们在30、40年前关于认知失调的著作中发现，改变某人对某事看法的最好方法之一就是要求他们尝试说服别人。

So that we do those sort of things.

所以我们做这些事情。

So what is the science?

那么什么是科学呢？

It's in the growth mindset.

这是成长心态。

That's where we draw on the metaphor that the brain is like a muscle.

这就是我们利用大脑就像肌肉的比喻的地方。

That just like...

那就像...

Muscles get stronger when they're challenged and can recover.

肌肉在受到挑战时会变得更强壮并且可以恢复。

So too does the brain get smarter when it's pushed and challenged in a certain way.

当大脑受到某种方式的推动和挑战时，它也会变得更聪明。

This idea that...

这个想法...

Writing a story about oneself or about others in which one succeeds can be useful toward building growth mindset in, you know, in basic terms.

写一个关于自己或他人成功的故事对于建立基本的成长心态非常有用。

I think that's what you're referring to.

我想这就是你所指的。

I think it's interesting.

我认为这很有趣。

It sort of suggests that we have brain circuits that underlie growth mindset type behaviors and thinking and that just storing into those can potentially lead to better decision making and behavior.

这在某种程度上表明，我们的大脑回路是成长型思维类型的行为和思维的基础，只要将这些存储起来，就有可能导致更好的决策和行为。

I mean, obviously, it can't create new skills.

我的意思是，显然，它不能创造新技能。

Simply because, you know, I can't write a story about me being able to dunk a basketball and then expect that I can dunk a basketball because at present I can't.

仅仅因为，你知道，我不能写一个关于我能够扣篮的故事，然后期望我能够扣篮，因为目前我不能。

But the idea of writing a story about the effort going into.

但我想写一个关于所付出的努力的故事。

Dunking a basketball and learning how, and then translating that to a more realistic sense of, of ability that allows me to then go practice more.

扣篮并学习如何扣篮，然后将其转化为更现实的能力感，这样我就可以进行更多练习。

Is that sort of what you're referring to?

你指的是那种类型的吗？

Yeah.

是的。

So the, in a 2016 paper in PNAS, Greg Walton and I.

因此，Greg Walton 和我在 2016 年发表在 PNAS 上的一篇论文中。

Explain these types of interventions as a, we call them a lay theory intervention.

将这些类型的干预解释为“外行理论干预”。

And the idea there is that lay people, like not scientific theories, but just our intuitive theories for explaining the world, help us.

那里的想法是，外行人帮助我们的不是科学理论，而是我们解释世界的直觉理论。

Anticipate what something means.

预测某事的含义。

So the idea from basic developmental psychology is that human beings are walking around with kind of prior belief about objects, about motion, about number, and then later about complex social structures like whether people are looking down on me, where I stand relative to others, and also little lay theories about adversity.

因此，基本发展心理学的观点是，人类在行走时带着对物体、运动、数字的先验信念，然后又对复杂的社会结构有一些信念，比如人们是否看不起我，我相对于他人的立场，以及关于逆境的很少的世俗理论。

What does it mean when I have to put in effort?

当我必须付出努力时，这意味着什么？

What does it mean when I fail?

当我失败时，这意味着什么？

So the idea is that if you understand the theory someone has, then you'll understand the meaning they'll make about a future experience.

所以我们的想法是，如果你理解某人的理论，那么你就会理解他们对未来经历的意义。

And therefore, well, and the reason meaning matters is because the way you interpret something then affects how you respond to it.

因此，意义之所以重要是因为你解释某事的方式会影响你对它的反应。

Right, so if I see someone and they're doing something innocuous but I interpret it as a threat, do I call the police?

是的，如果我看到某人正在做一些无害的事情，但我将其视为威胁，我会报警吗？

Do I run away?

我逃跑吗？

That's my interpretation.

这是我的解释。

That's causing it, right?

就是这个原因造成的，对吧？

And so there's a long way of saying it turns out one of the best ways to preset someone's meaning and give them a different theory is to give them a different story.

因此，有很长的说法，事实证明，预设某人的含义并给他们不同的理论的最佳方法之一就是给他们一个不同的故事。

Stories are kind of like theories in motion.

故事有点像运动中的理论。

This is why, you know, like what's the point of war and peace, right?

这就是为什么，你知道，战争与和平的意义是什么，对吗？

War and peace is really a theory of great leaders in the war.

战争与和平确实是战争中伟大领袖的理论。

And if there's any English PhDs, I'm sure they'll tell me that's an oversimplified version of what Tolstoy was doing.

如果有任何英国博士，我相信他们会告诉我这是托尔斯泰所做的事情的过度简化版本。

But you learn the theory in a narrative way, right?

但你是通过叙述的方式学习这个理论的，对吗？

So this is the classic idea throughout human history.

所以这是整个人类历史上的经典想法。

Great writers and authors give us theories through narrative, right?

伟大的作家和作家通过叙事为我们提供理论，对吗？

And so we're just taking.

所以我们只是接受。

That simple human fact and doing it in a 10-minute activity.

这个简单的人类事实并在 10 分钟的活动中完成。

And the lay theory in a person's mind that when things are difficult, it can change.

人们心中的普遍理论是，当事情困难时，它就会改变。

Can be taught with a very simple narrative, which is this person or even I experience difficulty in something that mattered to me.

可以用非常简单的叙述来教导，即这个人或什至我在对我来说重要的事情上遇到困难。

That difficulty didn't determine my entire future because actually there were steps that I could take in order to make a difference.

这种困难并没有决定我的整个未来，因为实际上我可以采取一些步骤来做出改变。

Here are the steps that I took, and then it improved.

这是我采取的步骤，然后有所改进。

So it's the simplest Freytag's pyramid.

所以这是最简单的弗雷塔格金字塔。

And even though that simple story is available to all of us, you could look in culture and see it, you also see the opposite lay theory all the time.

即使我们所有人都可以听到这个简单的故事，但你可以在文化中看到它，你也总是会看到相反的外行理论。

And so without, absent our intervention, it's not like people couldn't end up with a growth mindset.

因此，如果没有我们的干预，人们并不是不能最终拥有成长型思维。

But they wouldn't kind of know what to sort for or what to look for.

但他们不知道要排序什么或要寻找什么。

So we give them some touch points for a very simple of like frustration, things can change, then they got better.

因此，我们为他们提供了一些接触点，以应对非常简单的挫折，事情可以改变，然后他们就会变得更好。

And we think that once people do that in our writing exercises, they're more likely to see that pattern out in the world.

我们认为，一旦人们在我们的写作练习中这样做，他们就更有可能在世界上看到这种模式。

And if you see that enough, and then you take the actual steps to get better, then it starts becoming true for you.

如果你看够了这一点，然后你采取实际的步骤来变得更好，那么它开始对你来说变得真实。

And that's what I call the recursive process that you...

这就是我所说的递归过程，你......

We give people a starting hypothesis about the world.

我们给人们一个关于世界的起始假设。

They go out, try things, struggle, fail.

他们出去尝试，奋斗，失败。

It improves.

它有所改善。

Then they see that that's true and then they can keep acting on that over time.

然后他们发现这是真的，然后他们可以随着时间的推移继续采取行动。

I feel like so much of getting better at things involves.

我觉得在事情上变得更好涉及很多。

Reappraising the stress or anxiety response.

重新评估压力或焦虑反应。

You know, the friction that one feels when they can't perform something well or when things feel overwhelming or confusing.

你知道，当一个人不能很好地完成某件事或者当事情让人感到难以承受或困惑时，他们会感受到摩擦。

And I think the analogies to physical exercise apply, but I feel like they're limited in the sense that I like the idea that the brain is like a muscle, that it can grow and get stronger.

我认为与体育锻炼的类比是适用的，但我觉得它们是有限的，因为我喜欢大脑就像肌肉一样的想法，它可以生长并变得更强。

I think the key difference to my mind is that, you know, like working out with weights.

我认为我的想法的主要区别在于，你知道，就像举重锻炼一样。

You get some sense of the result you're going to get because there's like a lot of blood flow into the muscles.

你会对将要得到的结果有所了解，因为有大量的血液流入肌肉。

So it's like a hint of what's possible with cardiovascular exercise.

所以这就像心血管锻炼的可能性的暗示。

Like if we run hard up a hill, there's that moment where your lungs are burning, et cetera.

就像我们努力跑上山一样，那一刻你的肺部会燃烧，等等。

And anyone who understands exercise knows that that's the signal for adaptation such the next time you can do the same thing without the burning of the lungs.

任何了解锻炼的人都知道，这是适应的信号，这样下次你就可以做同样的事情而不会灼伤肺部。

When it comes to mental work and learning, I think...

当谈到脑力工作和学习时，我认为......

We immediately assume that if we're not performing well, if we're getting confused or overwhelmed, that somehow we're doing it wrong as opposed to stimulating the growth.

我们立即认为，如果我们表现不佳，如果我们感到困惑或不知所措，那么我们在某种程度上做错了，而不是刺激增长。

And so are there any studies that point to bridging the relationship between the physiology, you know, the stress response and the mindset that...

那么是否有任何研究表明可以弥合生理学、压力反应和心态之间的关系……

Allows one to say, okay, this is really hard and I keep failing and failing and failing at this math, at this language learning, at writing this essay, whatever it is.

可以让人说，好吧，这真的很难，我在数学、语言学习、写这篇文章等方面不断失败。

And that's exactly what I'm supposed to be doing.

这正是我应该做的。

It's like the burning of the lungs or it's like the failure to complete another repetition in the gym.

这就像肺部的灼烧感，或者就像在健身房中无法完成另一次重复一样。

Yeah, I mean, I think that you're right.

是的，我的意思是，我认为你是对的。

You know, the standard growth mindset message.

你知道，标准的成长心态信息。

It does have reappraisal components, specifically around something Carol Dweck has called effort beliefs, which is very simply the belief that if it's hard, it means you're doing the wrong thing.

它确实有重新评估的成分，特别是围绕卡罗尔·德韦克（Carol Dweck）所谓的“努力信念”的东西，这种信念非常简单，即如果困难，就意味着你做错了事情。

And that follows naturally from the fixed mindset idea that ability can't change.

这自然是从“能力无法改变”的固定型思维模式中得出的。

And I think it's very important to point out.

我认为指出这一点非常重要。

The centrality of that effort belief because people have tried to apply growth mindset but simplified it in a way of just saying, basically, try harder.

这种努力信念的核心是因为人们试图运用成长心态，但将其简化为简单地说，基本上，要更加努力。

Or I believe in you.

或者我相信你。

If you try hard enough, you can do anything.

如果你足够努力，你可以做任何事情。

But if your natural inclination is to view the need for effort as a sign that you are doing the wrong thing, which is that's the default interpretation, then people are going to quit.

但如果你的自然倾向是将需要努力视为你做错事的标志（这是默认的解释），那么人们就会放弃。

If you believe effort outs you as lacking potential, And then I say you need to try hard.

如果你认为努力会让你缺乏潜力，那么我说你需要努力尝试。

I'm saying you don't have potential that basic insight is very poorly misunderstood in the field and it's led to tons of misapplications of Carroll's work.

我是说你没有潜力，基本见解在该领域很少被误解，这导致了卡罗尔工作的大量误用。

And then people are like, well, this thing doesn't work.

然后人们就会说，好吧，这东西不起作用。

Well, okay, but you haven't addressed the effort belief.

好吧，但是你还没有谈到努力信念。

So I think that...

所以我认为...

The first type of response to what you've said is...

对你所说的话的第一种回应是......

You can't just abstractly tell someone your brain is a muscle and assume that magically, then in the midst of stress and frustration and confusion and all those negative experiences, that you're going to immediately say, yes, I love doing this and this is great.

你不能只是抽象地告诉别人你的大脑是一块肌肉，然后神奇地假设，然后在压力、沮丧、困惑和所有这些负面经历中，你会立即说，是的，我喜欢这样做，这很棒。

Am But then there's also the physiological component, as you're saying.

但正如你所说，还有生理因素。

When we're stressed, frustrated, confused, your heart starts racing.

当我们感到压力、沮丧、困惑时，你的心跳就会开始加速。

Maybe your palms get sweaty.

也许你的手掌会出汗。

Your breathing starts getting heavier.

你的呼吸开始变得粗重。

My daughter is 13 before a cello audition.

我女儿 13 岁，即将参加大提琴试奏。

It's like I have butterflies in my stomach.

就好像我的肚子里有蝴蝶一样。

What does this mean?

这意味着什么？

And I think that...

我认为...

Growth Mindset Research didn't always...

成长心态研究并不总是...

Deal with the visceral experience of stress and frustration.

处理压力和挫折的内心体验。

And I think in a world in which someone hears the growth mindset message and says, yes, now I'm going to go challenge myself.

我认为在这个世界上，有人听到成长心态的信息并说，是的，现在我要去挑战自己。

I'm going to embrace stress and frustration, do the mental equivalent of running ladders or running up a hill.

我将拥抱压力和挫折，在心理上就像跑梯子或跑上山一样。

Then they feel that stress, but if they don't know how to interpret that, it's like growth mindset isn't going to get them to the skill development, right?

然后他们会感受到压力，但如果他们不知道如何解释这种压力，就好像成长心态无法让他们发展技能，对吗？

Or at least to the mental well-being of feeling like they have confidence and can do well.

或者至少让他们感觉自己有信心并且能够做得很好，从而获得心理健康。

In some research that we've done in the last few years, what we've tried to do is to marry together the growth mindset idea with great work originally coming out of Ali Crum and Jeremy Jameson's labs, who were building on lots of great appraisal psychologists, Wendy Mendez and others, to say, okay, in the inevitable experience where if you fully believe our growth mindset and then now you load your plate with challenges, but now you've got a physiological stress response.

在我们过去几年所做的一些研究中，我们试图将成长心态的想法与最初来自 Ali Crum 和 Jeremy Jameson 实验室的伟大工作结合起来，他们的实验室建立在许多伟大的评估心理学家、Wendy Mendez 和其他人的基础上，我们会说，好吧，在不可避免的经历中，如果你完全相信我们的成长心态，那么现在你会面临挑战，但现在你会产生生理压力反应。

How are you going to appraise that better?

您将如何更好地评价这一点？

And that's kind of been the new frontier of growth mindset work in the last four or five years.

这就是过去四五年来成长型思维工作的新领域。

Yeah.

是的。

Could you tell us more about this stress is enhancing mindset?

您能否告诉我们更多关于这种压力如何增强心态的信息？

I think it's a really interesting one, especially when it's woven in with the growth mindset.

我认为这是一件非常有趣的事情，尤其是当它与成长心态交织​​在一起时。

Yeah.

是的。

So let me tell you kind of.

那么让我告诉你一些吧。

That on its own.

就其本身而言。

And then, and then the, the story of how we had this insight is actually kind of interesting too.

然后，然后，我们如何获得这种见解的故事实际上也很有趣。

But just the basic idea as, you know, people who've heard about Allie Crum would know and Jeremy Jameson is that you know, an experience of your heart racing, your palms sweating, anxiety in your stomach.

但基本的想法，你知道，听说过艾莉·克拉姆和杰里米·詹姆森的人都会知道，你知道，这是一种心跳加速、手心出汗、胃部焦虑的体验。

That is itself a new stressor that then needs to be interpreted and appraised by the person experiencing it.

这本身就是一种新的压力源，需要由经历它的人来解释和评估。

Um...

嗯...

That idea on its own is kind of revolutionary for people.

这个想法本身对人们来说就是革命性的。

People tend to think...

人们往往认为...

That Your physiological arousal is this objective experience that is universally bad.

你的生理唤醒是一种普遍不好的客观体验。

Allie Crum calls that a stress is debilitating belief.

艾莉·克拉姆 (Allie Crum) 称，压力会削弱信念。

And I think that's a good label for it.

我认为这是一个很好的标签。

It's this idea that...

正是这个想法...

That heart racing, palms sweaty, butterflies in your stomach is a sign of your impending failure and doom and it will always interfere with your performance.

心跳加速、手心出汗、心慌意乱是你即将失败和厄运的征兆，它总是会干扰你的表现。

And the implication therefore is if you were about to do well on whatever you're going to do, then you wouldn't feel that way, right?

因此，这意味着如果你打算在你要做的事情上做得很好，那么你就不会有这种感觉，对吗？

Allie Crump calls us being stressed about being stressed.

艾莉·克伦普 (Allie Crump) 称我们因压力而感到压力。

And that I think it's a really common experience right now where people are like, well, if I was a confident, good person who was about to do well, I wouldn't be sitting here feeling so stressed about how stressed I am.

我认为这是现在非常普遍的经历，人们会说，如果我是一个自信的好人，并且即将做得很好，我就不会坐在这里为自己的压力感到如此紧张。

And it becomes this metacognitive layered loop of just being stuck in your own mind and interpreting your arousal in the most negative possible light.

它变成了这种元认知的分层循环，你被困在自己的头脑中，并以最消极的方式解释你的觉醒。

So that stress is debilitating belief doesn't people aren't like wrong for having come to that belief because it's everywhere in our culture.

因此，压力会削弱信念，人们相信这种信念并不是错误的，因为它在我们的文化中无处不在。

One thing I do in my class a lot is I just have people Google image search, stress management means.

我在课堂上经常做的一件事是我让人们谷歌图像搜索，压力管理手段。

And first of all, a surprising number about cats.

首先，关于猫的数量惊人。

I don't know why people think cat pictures are the way to convey complex scientific ideas.

我不知道为什么人们认为猫的图片是传达复杂科学思想的方式。

It'll be like a cat with a cookie jar, and it'll be like growth mindset.

这就像一只拿着饼干罐的猫，就像成长心态一样。

I don't understand what the point of that is.

我不明白这有什么意义。

But page two or three after all the cats, then you get to...

但是在所有的猫之后的第二页或第三页，然后你就可以......

A lot of things that are, you'll see a person with a battery that's empty and it's like, they didn't de-stress or 10 tips for de-stressing.

很多事情是这样的，你会看到一个人的电池没电了，就像他们没有减压或没有减压的 10 个秘诀一样。

And it'll be like, go on a walk, drink chamomile tea.

就像，去散步，喝甘菊茶。

Like, and the underlying implication is that if you're stressed, then you need to distract yourself.

就像，潜在的含义是，如果你有压力，那么你需要分散自己的注意力。

You need to get rid of that stress.

你需要摆脱这种压力。

But alternative explanation in the growth mindset world is, well, maybe you have something that's very important to you and you've pushed yourself to embrace some challenge in a really admirable way.

但成长心态世界中的另一种解释是，也许你有一些对你来说非常重要的东西，并且你已经推动自己以一种非常令人钦佩的方式接受一些挑战。

And.

和。

That has filled your plate in some way.

这在某种程度上已经填满了你的盘子。

Like if I was about to give a presentation to a senior vice president at work, and I'm stressed about it.

就像我要向工作中的高级副总裁做演讲一样，我对此感到压力。

I should not like go take a bubble bath and like go for a walk.

我不应该喜欢去洗泡泡浴，而喜欢去散步。

Like I should get ready to kick ass at the presentation.

就像我应该准备好在演讲中大放异彩一样。

And so I think what what Ali Krum and others have identified is that you can think differently about that stress.

因此，我认为阿里·克鲁姆和其他人已经发现，你可以以不同的方式思考这种压力。

You can say this is actually a sign that I'm preparing to optimize my performance.

可以说这其实是我准备优化自己表现的一个信号。

And maybe the heart racing isn't.

也许心跳并不是这样。

My body being afraid of damage, maybe it's my body getting more oxygenated blood to my brain and my muscles to like help me do really well.

我的身体害怕受到伤害，也许是我的身体让更多的含氧血液流向我的大脑和肌肉，以帮助我做得很好。

And that's called a stress can be enhancing belief.

这就是所谓的压力可以增强信念。

And what's so interesting, I think, about this work, and I want to give credit to lots of other people, is that if you're in the stress is debilitating mindset, you don't realize that there's an alternative.

我认为这项工作的有趣之处在于，如果你处于压力使你的心态衰弱的状态，你就不会意识到还有其他选择，而且我想赞扬其他很多人。

You just think that that's the way it is.

你只是认为事情就是这样。

So it never occurs to you to say, oh, this stress is helping me.

所以你从来没有想过说，哦，这种压力对我有帮助。

But once you tell people this, What happens is in our studies, we actually see a change in stress physiology.

但是一旦你告诉人们这一点，我们的研究中就会发生什么，我们实际上看到了压力生理学的变化。

Changing your mindset about stress in turn changes how your body reacts, which then becomes a different stressor that you can interpret.

改变你对压力的心态反过来会改变你身体的反应，从而成为你可以解释的不同压力源。

And so the big insight was pairing.

所以最重要的洞察就是结对。

These ideas about reframing stress as an inevitable force that's going to destroy your goal pursuit into a resource to be cultivated and pairing that together with the first step, which is the growth mindset that causes you to...

这些想法将压力重新定义为一种不可避免的力量，它将破坏你对目标的追求，并将其与第一步结合起来，即让你……的成长心态。

Like be open to the challenge in the first place.

首先要对挑战持开放态度。

I'd like to take a brief break and acknowledge our sponsor AG1.

我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商 AG1。

By now, most of you have heard me tell my story about how I've been taking AG1 once or twice a day, every day since 2012.

到目前为止，你们中的大多数人都已经听过我讲述了我如何每天服用一两次 AG1 的故事，自 2012 年以来，每天都服用 AG1。

And indeed, that's true.

确实如此。

I started taking AG1 and I still take AG1 once or twice a day because it gives me vitamins and minerals that I might not be getting enough of from whole foods that I eat, as well as adaptogens and micronutrients.

我开始服用 AG1，现在仍然每天服用一到两次，因为它为我提供了我可能无法从我吃的天然食物中获取的维生素和矿物质，以及适应原和微量营养素。

And those adaptogens and micronutrients are really critical because even though I strive to eat Most of my foods from unprocessed or minimally processed whole foods, it's often hard to do so, especially when I'm traveling and especially when I'm busy.

这些适应原和微量营养素非常重要，因为尽管我努力吃未经加工或最低限度加工的天然食品中的大部分食物，但通常很难做到这一点，尤其是当我在旅行时，尤其是当我很忙时。

So by drinking a packet of AG1 in the morning and oftentimes also again in the afternoon or evening, I'm ensuring that I'm getting everything I need.

因此，通过早上喝一包 AG1，并且经常在下午或晚上再喝一次，我可以确保获得我需要的一切。

I'm covering all of my foundational nutritional needs.

我满足了我所有的基本营养需求。

And I, like so many other people that take AG1 regularly, just report feeling better.

我和许多其他定期服用 AG1 的人一样，只是报告感觉好多了。

And that shouldn't be surprising because it supports gut health and of course gut health supports immune system health and brain health, and it's supporting a ton of different cellular and organ processes that all interact with one another.

这并不奇怪，因为它支持肠道健康，当然肠道健康支持免疫系统健康和大脑健康，并且它支持大量相互相互作用的不同细胞和器官过程。

So while certain supplements are really directed towards one specific outcome, like sleeping better or being more alert, AG1 really is foundational nutritional support.

因此，虽然某些补充剂确实针对一种特定的结果，例如睡得更好或更加警觉，但 AG1 确实是基础营养支持。

It's really designed to support all of the systems of your brain and body that relate to mental health and physical health.

它的真正目的是支持与心理健康和身体健康相关的大脑和身体的所有系统。

If you'd like to try AG1, you can go to drinkag1.com slash Huberman.

如果您想尝试 AG1，您可以访问 Drinkag1.com 斜线 Huberman。

To claim a special offer.

索取特别优惠。

They'll give you five free travel packs with your order, plus a year supply of vitamin D3K2.

您订购后，他们将赠送 5 个免费旅行套装，以及一年的维生素 D3K2 供应量。

Again, that's drinkag1.com slash Huberman.

再说一遍，这是 Drinkag1.com 斜线 Huberman。

I feel like so much of what human beings struggle with.

我对人类所面临的困境感同身受。

Such as...

比如...

Learning and performance, our relationship to stress, etc.

学习和表现、我们与压力的关系等。

Could be resolved if we could overcome the deficit in language.

如果我们能克服语言上的缺陷，问题就可以解决。

Here's what I'm thinking.

这就是我的想法。

We're talking about reframing stress to make it performance enhancing as opposed to performance diminishing.

我们正在讨论重新调整压力，使其提高绩效，而不是降低绩效。

I wonder if we replace the word stress with just like levels of arousal, but then people hear arousal and they think certain kinds of arousal.

我想知道我们是否可以用“唤醒水平”来代替“压力”这个词，但人们听到“唤醒”时就会想到某些类型的唤醒。

So what you want to do is, you know, the way I think about it is like a continuum of readiness, but then that doesn't work because readiness can be readiness for sleep, which is a low level of arousal.

所以你想做的是，你知道，我的想法就像是准备的连续体，但这不起作用，因为准备可以是睡眠的准备，这是一种低水平的唤醒。

You don't want to be highly alert and then you're not ready for sleep, right?

你不想在高度警觉的情况下还没准备好睡觉，对吧？

So there's a real deficit of language where I think if there was some other word, I don't, I can't come up with it on the fly where, you know, one's internal level of readiness.

因此，语言确实存在缺陷，我认为如果有其他词，我不知道，我无法即时想出它，你知道，一个人的内部准备水平。

As opposed to stress.

与压力相反。

And maybe it looks a lot like autonomic arousal where heart rate is increased and blood pressure is increased.

也许它看起来很像自主神经唤醒，心率增加，血压升高。

And people would say, oh yeah, that's my body being ready for something as opposed to stressed about doing it.

人们会说，哦，是的，那是我的身体为某件事做好了准备，而不是因为做这件事而感到压力。

And it's kind of a trivial recasting of stress on the one hand, but in terms of kids learning about life and stress and arousal and these internal signals and adults learning about those and incorporating those into their life goals.

一方面，这是对压力的微不足道的重塑，但就孩子们了解生活、压力和唤醒以及这些内部信号而言，成年人了解这些并将其纳入他们的生活目标。

I think it would be pretty meaningful.

我认为这将是非常有意义的。

And again, I don't have a solution to this, but I feel like everyone here, stress is bad.

再说一次，我没有解决这个问题的办法，但我觉得这里的每个人，压力都是不好的。

You hear stress is enhancing.

您听说压力正在增加。

Okay, great.

好的，太好了。

But I think it's really about developing a language that lets us interpret what's going on in our bodies.

但我认为这实际上是为了开发一种语言，让我们能够解释我们身体里发生的事情。

And compare that to what we are facing in the moment and just decide, is this well-matched or poorly matched to what we need to do?

并将其与我们目前面临的情况进行比较，然后决定，这与我们需要做的事情匹配还是不匹配？

Is it great for going to sleep?

非常适合入睡吗？

Is it great for learning?

非常适合学习吗？

Is it great for catching that train that's, you know, soon to leave the station?

赶上即将离开车站的火车很方便吗？

And I just wonder, Why the deficit in language?

我只是想知道，为什么会出现语言障碍？

Yeah, I think it's a profound question because small changes in language.

是的，我认为这是一个深刻的问题，因为语言的微小变化。

Perpetuate problematic lay theories, Because they have the baggage on them.

延续有问题的外行理论，因为它们背负着包袱。

And I think that let's think this through.

我认为让我们仔细考虑一下。

So what the psychophysiologists like to point out is that there's a distinction between the stressor, which is the let's call it the internally or externally imposed demand.

因此，心理生理学家想要指出的是，压力源之间是有区别的，我们可以称之为内部或外部强加的需求。

It could be something that's thwarting your goals or The exam.

这可能会阻碍你的目标或考试。

The difficult conversation, the for some people going to the doctor or the dentist.

对于一些去看医生或牙医的人来说，这是一次困难的谈话。

The hard conversation with somebody you care about.

与你关心的人进行艰难的对话。

It could be or a physical stressor, right?

它可能是身体压力源，对吗？

Like a football game or running a marathon, right?

就像足球比赛或跑马拉松一样，对吧？

So anything that imposes demands on your body and mind and therefore will require resources, like metabolic resources to do well.

因此，任何对你的身体和思想都有要求的事情都需要资源，比如代谢资源才能做好。

That's a stressor, okay?

这是一个压力源，好吗？

Then there's your appraisal of it.

然后就是你对它的评价了。

That's what you name it, how you interpret it, how you frame it in your mind.

这就是你如何命名它、如何解释它、如何在你的脑海中构建它。

And then there's your response.

然后就是你的回应。

People in general.

人一般。

Conflate the stressor with a stress response.

将压力源与压力反应混为一谈。

When they say stress, they're like, I'm really stressed right now.

当他们说压力时，他们会说，我现在压力真的很大。

Well, really what you mean is that there were stressors.

嗯，你真正的意思是存在压力源。

You appraise them as more than you can handle.

你认为它们超出了你的处理能力。

And then you had a threat type stress response, which means that your body is preparing for damage and defeat.

然后你就会产生威胁型压力反应，这意味着你的身体正在为伤害和失败做好准备。

And that is like an inheritance of...

这就像继承...

How the sympathetic nervous system evolved, which was to keep us alive from threats, mainly physical threats.

交感神经系统是如何进化的，它是为了让我们免受威胁，主要是身体威胁。

And so if you have a stressor, some demand.

因此，如果你有压力源，就会有一些需求。

Praise is something you cannot handle, and then your threat type response.

赞美是你无法承受的，然后是你的威胁类型的反应。

Your body's basically assuming you're going to lose whatever physical fight you're in, like the bear's going to tear you apart.

你的身体基本上假设你会输掉你正在进行的任何身体斗争，就像熊会把你撕碎一样。

And then your main goal at that point is to stay alive and bleed out more slowly.

然后你此时的主要目标是保持活力并更缓慢地流血。

So you end up with more blood kept centrally in the body cavity, less in the extremities.

因此，最终体腔中央的血液会增多，四肢的血液会减少。

The body releases cortisol because it's an anti-inflammatory.

身体会释放皮质醇，因为它具有抗炎作用。

It's going to help with tissue repair 45 minutes down the road.

45 分钟后它将有助于组织修复。

So there's a whole cascade of...

所以有一个完整的级联......

Physiological response is that come in part from the mental appraisal that this stressor is more than you can handle.

生理反应部分来自于心理评估，即这种压力源超出了你的承受能力。

Now, we're very rarely...

现在，我们很少...

Confronted with those kinds of physical stressors these days.

这些天面临着这些身体压力。

It's often social stressors.

这通常是社会压力源。

But a lot of these social stressors are the threat of social death.

但这些社会压力很多都是社会死亡的威胁。

Right, like a ninth grader coming into high school getting bullied by all their friends and are excluded because the friends in eighth grade now treat you like you don't exist.

是的，就像一个九年级学生进入高中时受到所有朋友的欺负并被排除在外，因为八年级的朋友现在对待你就像你不存在一样。

Right?

正确的？

The threat of social death is pretty bad, right?

社会性死亡的威胁相当严重，对吧？

Or you're a new legal associate and you've filed your first brief and all the partners are like, this is garbage.

或者你是一名新的法律合伙人，你已经提交了第一份简报，而所有合伙人都说，这是垃圾。

We're not going to send it to the client.

我们不会将其发送给客户。

Right?

正确的？

Like all of a sudden you're on trial socially in front of these people who could cut you loose at any time.

就像突然之间，你在这些随时可能放开你的人面前接受社交审判。

That's a very vibrant social stressor that evokes the same kind of physiological response as we suppose a physical one would, right?

这是一种非常活跃的社会压力源，它会引起与我们想象的身体反应相同的生理反应，对吗？

And so we're very careful to distinguish in our studies a stressor from the stress response because Often the stressor isn't really a bad thing.

因此，我们在研究中非常小心地区分压力源和压力反应，因为通常压力源并不是真正的坏事。

Getting critical feedback on your first legal brief as a junior associate, well, that could be awesome.

作为一名初级律师，获得关于你的第一份法律摘要的批评性反馈，这可能很棒。

It could be like, oh, great, I have these awesome partners at my great law firm are now giving me personalized feedback.

这可能就像，哦，太棒了，我伟大的律师事务所的这些很棒的合作伙伴现在正在给我个性化的反馈。

That's useful.

这很有用。

Or I'm a ninth grader and I have to make new friends, but I don't know, maybe you need new friends.

或者我是一名九年级学生，我必须结交新朋友，但我不知道，也许你需要新朋友。

That could be a good thing.

这可能是一件好事。

And same with a test, same with a presentation to senior vice president, whatever it is.

测试也是如此，向高级副总裁的演示也是如此，无论是什么。

Stressor is...

压力源是...

Often in our daily lives are not good or bad.

在我们的日常生活中，很多时候并没有好坏之分。

Now, of course, there's traumatic stressors that are really bad for people.

当然，现在存在对人们非常有害的创伤性压力源。

But then the appraisal is really where there's a lot of leverage.

但评估确实是有很大影响力的地方。

And if you think that the stressor is inevitably bad and that your response to it is always harmful, then it's really hard for you to think that you have the resources to meet the demand that you're facing, and you end up in this threat cycle.

如果你认为压力源不可避免地是坏的，并且你对它的反应总是有害的，那么你就很难认为你有资源来满足你面临的需求，你最终会陷入这个威胁循环。

So in a lot of our research, what we try to do is give people a different story to tell themselves about a stressor and about their response.

因此，在我们的许多研究中，我们试图做的是给人们一个不同的故事，让他们自己了解压力源和他们的反应。

So that way they end up in a better place.

这样他们最终会到达一个更好的地方。

And I don't know what that better language is, but I will say I once gave a talk at a middle school and a high school.

我不知道更好的语言是什么，但我会说我曾经在一所初中和一所高中做过演讲。

And I used slides that Jeremy Jameson, who's my collaborator, had sent me that had the word arousal on it on every single slide.

我使用了我的合作者杰里米·詹姆森（Jeremy Jameson）发给我的幻灯片，每张幻灯片上都有“唤醒”这个词。

And that was a big mistake in a room of like middle school kids.

在一个只有中学生的房间里，这是一个很大的错误。

I strongly recommend different terminology.

我强烈推荐不同的术语。

And I was a middle school teacher.

我是一名中学老师。

I should have known that you can't say that word in high school.

我早该知道你在高中时不能说这个词。

Right.

正确的。

Yeah, I think that there needs to be a better language.

是的，我认为需要一种更好的语言。

I think if people of all ages understood the autonomic nervous system, this aspect of our nervous system that is on a continuum that leads us to either be, I guess, at the extremes, you would say, coma would be the deepest state of parasympathetic non-arousal.

我认为，如果所有年龄段的人都了解自主神经系统，我们神经系统的这个方面是一个连续体，它会导致我们处于极端状态，我猜，你会说，昏迷将是副交感神经非唤醒的最深层状态。

Then ascending from, you know, very, you know, deeply asleep, lightly asleep, groggy, awake.

然后从，你知道，非常，你知道，深度睡眠，浅睡，昏昏沉沉，清醒开始。

Awake and alert, awake and alert to the point of being highly alert.

清醒且警觉，清醒且警觉到高度警觉的地步。

And then you get into kind of low-level panic and then all-out panic attack, right?

然后你会陷入一种低度的恐慌，然后是全面的恐慌发作，对吗？

And that's kind of the continuum, the autonomic continuum.

这就是一种连续体，自主连续体。

I feel like if people understood that and they could simply ask, okay, where is my body and mind along that continuum?

我觉得如果人们理解这一点，他们就可以简单地问，好吧，沿着这个连续体，我的身体和思想在哪里？

And then compare it to whatever it is they face, then we'd have a better sense of whether or not we were in the correct, maybe even optimal.

然后将其与他们面临的任何情况进行比较，然后我们就能更好地了解我们是否处于正确的位置，甚至可能是最佳位置。

State for, for dealing with challenge or, or not.

说明是否应对挑战。

And along those lines, what is the optimal internal state for dealing with challenge that is just outside our ability?

沿着这些思路，应对超出我们能力范围的挑战的最佳内部状态是什么？

You know, maybe in an exam where I can naturally get 85% of the answers correct, but maybe 15%.

你知道，也许在考试中我自然可以答对 85% 的答案，但也可能是 15%。

I think this is what the machine learning and AI tells us is probably the appropriate level of difficulty for something in order to best learn.

我认为机器学习和人工智能告诉我们，为了最好地学习，这可能是适当的难度级别。

I know that's probably.

我知道这可能是。

Yeah.

是的。

It depends on if you're motivated and if, you know, a lot of things, but yeah, I mean, I think.

这取决于你是否有动力，以及，你知道，很多事情，但是，是的，我的意思是，我想。

If you think of the autonomic arousal on just one axis, where you start running into problems we find is that I think you're right that there's like, you know, coma to like some arousal or meaningful arousal.

如果你只考虑一个轴上的自主唤醒，你就会开始遇到问题，我们发现，我认为你是对的，你知道，昏迷是喜欢某种唤醒或有意义的唤醒。

But it's the middle to the end part where there's two different tracks.

但从中间到结尾部分有两个不同的轨道。

And one track is very high arousal, but you're terrified of...

其中一首曲目非常令人兴奋，但你害怕......

The damage and defeat and the humiliation and the failure.

损害、失败、羞辱和失败。

And so that's...

所以这就是...

That's demanding all your attention.

这需要你全部的注意力。

That's what we call a threat.

这就是我们所说的威胁。

Type stress.

键入压力。

There's another version that is...

还有另一个版本是...

Again, very high arousal, but that's like you're stoked.

再次，非常高的兴奋度，但就像你被激发了一样。

And you feel confident you're going to do well.

而且你有信心自己会做得很好。

And that's also very high arousal.

这也是非常高的唤醒度。

And if you just look at...

如果你只是看...

Arousal measures like pre-ejection period, right?

像射精前期这样的唤醒措施，对吗？

Could you explain pre-ejection period?

您能解释一下射血前期吗？

It's just a simple measure of just the sympathetic nervous system that we use in all of our studies.

这只是我们在所有研究中使用的交感神经系统的简单测量。

So sympathetic, just to remind folks, is one aspect of the autonomic nervous system.

提醒人们，同情心是自主神经系统的一方面。

It has nothing to do with sympathy.

这与同情心无关。

It's just the more alert.

只是更加警觉而已。

It means more contribution of the sympathetic arm of the autonomic nervous system.

这意味着自主神经系统交感臂的贡献更大。

Sorry, it's a mouthful.

抱歉，有点拗口。

And then less alert would be more contribution of the parasympathetic arm of the autonomic nervous system.

然后，自主神经系统副交感神经系统的警觉性就会降低。

And PEP is just a measure that we use in our laboratory studies.

PEP 只是我们在实验室研究中使用的一种测量方法。

And another could have been like skin conductance, which is about the sweat coming out of your skin and then we use an electrode to figure out how much is there.

另一种可能是皮肤电导，它是关于从皮肤中流出的汗水，然后我们使用电极来计算出有多少汗水。

Those kinds of measures can't distinguish what we call a challenge type state.

这些措施无法区分我们所说的挑战型国家。

That's almost like people have heard of flow where you're optimally balanced between important challenge you care about and resources and ability to overcome or at least deal with that challenge.

这几乎就像人们听说过心流一样，在心流中，你可以在你关心的重要挑战与克服或至少处理该挑战的资源和能力之间实现最佳平衡。

On the positive side.

从积极的一面来看。

In the other high arousal state, which is threat.

在另一种高唤醒状态下，即威胁。

And that's, again, everything's highly engaged, your whole stress system, but you don't think you can deal with it.

再说一次，一切都高度参与，你的整个压力系统，但你认为你无法应对它。

So that becomes really important because here's a very practical example.

所以这变得非常重要，因为这是一个非常实际的例子。

If you look at devices people are wearing to detect their stress, that might say high or low arousal, but it can't distinguish between super good positive challenge type stress and really negative threat type stress.

如果你观察人们佩戴的检测压力的设备，可能会发现唤醒程度高或低，但它无法区分超级好的积极挑战类型压力和真正的消极威胁类型压力。

One of the examples that psychophysiologists like to say a lot, I got this from Jeremy Jameson, is imagine you're at the top of a double black diamond about to ski down.

心理生理学家经常说的一个例子，我从杰里米·詹姆森那里得到的，是想象你正处于双黑钻石的顶部，即将滑落。

If you are a good skier, your heart rate isn't probably low.

如果您是一名优秀的滑雪者，您的心率可能不会低。

You're probably amped up.

你可能很兴奋。

You're stoked.

你很兴奋。

You're like, this is awesome.

你会想，这太棒了。

I can't wait to do this.

我等不及要做这件事了。

You're fully confident.

你完全有信心。

You're going to make all the turns and have a blast.

您将完成所有转弯并玩得很开心。

If you're a terrible skier, you're just imagining the yard sale that's about to happen.

如果你滑雪技术很差，你只是在想象即将发生的庭院旧货出售。

You're about to crash, you're going to fall down the mountain, you might die.

你会崩溃，你会从山上掉下去，你可能会死。

Also high arousal.

唤醒度也很高。

If you're wearing like the regular watch that will just detect sympathetic nervous system activation, it wouldn't be able to tell the difference between really stoked to do something positive and terrified of like crashing and dying.

如果你像普通手表一样佩戴，只能检测交感神经系统的激活，那么它就无法区分是真正兴奋地去做积极的事情还是害怕撞车和死亡。

And so I like that example because often in social situations or performance situations, you want to be high arousal to perform your best.

所以我喜欢这个例子，因为通常在社交场合或表演场合，你想要高度兴奋地表现最好。

But you want your perception of that demand, the demand that's requiring your body to respond, to be matched with an equal belief or what we call appraisal of your resources to meet that demand.

但你希望你对这种需求的感知，即要求你的身体做出反应的需求，与平等的信念或我们所说的对你的资源的评估相匹配，以满足该需求。

So I think my answer to the question is, well, I think it's not so much about what's the optimal amount of demand.

所以我认为我对这个问题的回答是，我认为这与最佳需求量无关。

So the 85 percent likelihood of success rate problems that's titrating demand.

因此，85% 的成功率问题的可能性就是滴定需求。

I think it's...

我认为这是...

How do you pair?

你如何配对？

A necessary level of demand for whatever goal you have with the perceptions of the resources.

无论你的目标是什么，对资源的看法都有必要的需求水平。

And sometimes those resources are your internal...

有时这些资源是你的内部......

Like just confidence, you know, or sometimes it's your ability to reappraise.

就像信心一样，你知道，或者有时是你重新评估的能力。

And other times it's material resources.

有时是物质资源。

Like, do you have a, it could be in real life, do you have a friend that you could turn to?

就像，你有一个，可能是在现实生活中，你有一个可以求助的朋友吗？

Or it might be, have you been trained in a way where you're able to overcome this?

或者，您是否接受过能够克服这个问题的培训？

Do you have enough time?

你有足够的时间吗？

So resources can be a big bucket.

所以资源可以是一个大桶。

And that's kind of the magic is because resources are appraised by the mind in our interventions, we can give you a different way of viewing your resources.

这就是神奇之处，因为资源是在我们的干预中通过思想来评估的，我们可以为您提供一种不同的方式来查看您的资源。

So that way, People feel like they can meet the demand and that pushes them from a threat type response into a more challenge type response.

这样，人们就会觉得他们可以满足需求，从而将他们从威胁型响应转变为更具挑战性的响应。

It makes sense.

这是有道理的。

If I think that the stress, for lack of a better term, and the effort is going to get me where I need to go eventually, I'm going to be far more willing to invest the effort.

如果我认为压力（由于缺乏更好的术语）和努力将使我最终到达我需要去的地方，我会更愿意投入努力。

Especially if I'm motivated.

尤其是当我有动力的时候。

I want the thing that lies at the finish line.

我想要终点线上的东西。

You basically take the demand, which was your intense stress and worry, and turn it into a resource in your own way.

您基本上将需求（即您的巨大压力和担忧）转化为您自己的资源。

Mind and it turns out that that actually helps people cope at a physiological level got it got it.

事实证明，这实际上可以帮助人们在生理层面上应对，明白了。

We've been talking a lot about kind of the nuts and bolts of growth mindset and stress.

我们已经谈论了很多关于成长心态和压力的具体细节。

Is performance enhancing mindset.

是提高绩效的心态。

Maybe we could shift a little bit to the discussion about what you call the mentor mindset.

也许我们可以稍微转移一下关于你所说的导师心态的讨论。

And as we do that, maybe we'll weave back in some of these, some of these concepts.

当我们这样做时，也许我们会重新融入其中的一些概念。

Yeah.

是的。

Your book 10 to 25.

你的书 10 到 25。

It focuses heavily on social appraisal, self-appraisal, basically the idea that we want to be liked and we don't want to be disliked.

它主要关注社会评价、自我评价，基本上是我们希望被人喜欢、不想被人讨厌的想法。

And it hurts when people say mean things about us or when we hear negative feedback, especially if it's provided publicly.

当人们说我们坏话或听到负面反馈时，尤其是公开提供的反馈，我们会感到很受伤。

But ultimately what we do with that information is what determines whether or not we grow and move forward.

但最终我们如何处理这些信息决定了我们是否成长和前进。

Everyone loves a great report card.

每个人都喜欢一份出色的成绩单。

Nobody likes a poor report card.

没有人喜欢糟糕的成绩单。

So Tell us about mentor mindset and both for folks in the 10 to 25 age range, but also for everybody, you know, because it's clear that this impacts us throughout our lifespan.

那么，请告诉我们关于导师心态的信息，不仅适用于 10 至 25 岁年龄段的人，也适用于每个人，因为很明显，这会影响我们的一生。

Yeah.

是的。

So the, the, the work I write about comes out of a dissertation led by Jeff Cohen at Stanford in the nineties with Claude Steele.

所以，我写的这篇文章出自杰夫·科恩（Jeff Cohen）九十年代与克劳德·斯蒂尔（Claude Steele）在斯坦福大学领导的一篇论文。

And they coined a term that they called the mentor's dilemma.

他们创造了一个术语，称为导师的困境。

And the mentor's dilemma is the idea that if you're a leader, a manager, a coach.

导师的困境在于，如果你是领导者、经理、教练。

Teacher, whatever it is, parent, it's very hard to simultaneously criticize somebody's work and motivate them to overcome and embrace that criticism.

老师，无论是什么，家长，很难同时批评某人的工作并激励他们克服并接受批评。

And the reason it's a dilemma is because the leader on the one hand wants to maintain high standards by being critical, maybe in order to help the person grow, but that could crush the person's motivation.

之所以陷入困境，是因为领导者一方面希望通过批评来保持高标准，也许是为了帮助员工成长，但这可能会削弱员工的积极性。

The alternative is withhold your criticism.

另一种选择是保留你的批评。

Don't say the truth.

别说实话。

Hide all the critical feedback.

隐藏所有批评反馈。

And be nice and super supportive.

并且表现得友善并且超级支持。

But...

但是...

And that meets your goal of being friendly and caring, but it doesn't help the person grow.

这满足了你友好和关心的目标，但它并不能帮助这个人成长。

So it feels like we have to walk through the world stuck between two bad choices.

所以感觉我们必须在两个糟糕的选择之间徘徊。

Either you're a demanding, autocratic dictator who doesn't care about human feelings, or you are a low-standard, wimp pushover that's giving in to the wimpy demands of the next generation.

要么你是一个要求很高、不关心人类感情的独裁独裁者，要么你是一个低标准、软弱的人，屈服于下一代的软弱要求。

And neither of those have...

而这些都没有...

Uniformly positive connotations.

一致的积极内涵。

And the classic example in Jeff's work was a student at Stanford who writes the first draft of an essay and then gets really harsh critical feedback from a professor.

杰夫作品中的典型例子是斯坦福大学的一名学生，他写了一篇论文的初稿，然后从教授那里得到了非常严厉的批评反馈。

Are they willing to revise their work?

他们愿意修改他们的工作吗？

Or do they say, this teacher hates me, they're biased, I dislike them, and...

或者他们会说，这个老师讨厌我，他们有偏见，我不喜欢他们，而且......

Leave the comments unaddressed.

保留评论不予处理。

So the solution to that in that research on the mentor's dilemma has been to say two things.

因此，在关于导师困境的研究中，解决这个问题的方法是说两件事。

One is appeal to the very high standard you have for someone's work, but also always accompany that appeal to the high standard with an assurance that if they implement the feedback and use the support, that they're capable of meeting the high standard.

一是呼吁你对某人的工作有很高的标准，但同时也要始终伴随着对高标准的呼吁，并保证如果他们落实反馈并使用支持，他们就有能力达到高标准。

I like to think of it as, like if you go to the roller coaster and they say you have to be this tall to ride, right?

我喜欢把它想象成，就像你去坐过山车，他们说你必须长到这么高才能乘坐，对吧？

So just saying you have to be this tall and you're not, see you later, isn't reassuring to somebody, right?

所以只是说你必须长到这么高，但你没有，稍后见，这并不能让人放心，对吗？

But if you can say, here's the standard, and I believe you can meet it, but it's going to be hard, that means a lot.

但如果你能说，这是标准，我相信你能达到它，但会很难，那就意味着很多。

It means I'm taking you seriously.

这意味着我正在认真对待你。

It means I believe in your growth.

这意味着我相信你的成长。

And it's a kind of leadership practice that makes growth mindset be something that comes to life and feel true.

这是一种领导力实践，使成长心态成为现实并感觉真实。

It's not just an idea in your head that you're growing.

你的成长不仅仅是你头脑中的一个想法。

It's like I live in a social world where people are going to push me to grow and not leave me alone.

就像我生活在一个社交世界中，人们会推动我成长，而不是让我孤单。

Are you familiar with the book of the late?

你熟悉最近的书吗？

I think.

我认为。

The pronunciation is Randy Pausch for the last lecture.

上一课的发音是 Randy Pausch。

No.

不。

He was a computer scientist.

他是一名计算机科学家。

He developed a lot of early online portals for kids, in particular young women to learn programming.

他开发了许多早期的在线门户网站，供孩子们，特别是年轻女性学习编程。

I think it was called Alice.

我想它叫爱丽丝。

And he is known for what's called the last lecture.

他因所谓的最后一次演讲而闻名。

He was diagnosed with cancer.

他被诊断出患有癌症。

He eventually passed away.

他最终去世了。

But he talked about in his book lessons that were important for life.

但他在书中谈到了对人生很重要的教训。

And one of the things that he said was the.

他说的其中一件事是。

The thing to worry about is not when your mentors and coaches are pushing you.

值得担心的不是你的导师和教练何时督促你。

It's when they stop pushing you that you should really worry because that means they've basically given up on you.

当他们不再催促你时，你才真正应该担心，因为这意味着他们基本上已经放弃了你。

So that always rung in my mind.

所以这句话一直在我脑海里响起。

Yeah, what I call the person who just is no longer maintaining high standards for you, I call that a protector mindset.

是的，我所说的不再为你保持高标准的人，我称之为保护者心态。

That it's almost like it's going to be too much trouble to see you dealing with stress.

看到你应对压力似乎会很麻烦。

From being pushed that I am going to protect you from that stress.

我会保护你免受压力，以免你被逼迫。

I maybe I care about you but I'm not going to hold you to a high standard.

我也许关心你，但我不会以高标准要求你。

And I see that a lot in coaches.

我在教练身上看到了很多这样的情况。

I see it in teachers.

我在老师身上看到了这一点。

I see it in parents.

我在父母身上看到了这一点。

For me, the opposite problematic version is what I call an enforcer mindset.

对我来说，相反的问题版本就是我所说的执行者心态。

This is like, here's the standard.

这就像，这是标准。

And I'm going to hold you to it, and it's up to you to meet it or not.

我会要求你坚持下去，而你是否能满足它取决于你。

Right, that's kind of like the college professor that says, look to your left, look to your right, half of you, you know, are going to be gone by the end of this.

是的，这有点像大学教授说，看看你的左边，看看你的右边，你知道，到这一切结束时，你的一半将会消失。

For me...

对我来说...

The solution is to think about taking the best parts of both of those two.

解决方案是考虑利用两者中最好的部分。

What's the high standards and high support?

什么是高标准、高支持？

So enforcer, great, you've got the standards.

所以执法者，太棒了，你已经达到了标准。

Let's add your support.

让我们添加您的支持。

Protector, you care a lot.

保护者，你很关心。

Great.

伟大的。

Let's add the standards.

让我们添加标准。

And what Jeff Cohen and Claude Steele found in their initial study is that students were far more likely to view negative criticism as a sign that the teacher cared for them if it was accompanied by a transparent and clear communication of these two elements of high standards and high support.

杰夫·科恩和克劳德·斯蒂尔在他们的初步研究中发现，如果伴随着高标准和高支持这两个要素的透明和清晰的沟通，学生更有可能将负面批评视为老师关心他们的标志。

If it was just the critical feedback, the professor could have meant the same positive thing, I'm caring about you, but they didn't make it clear to the person, then participants were less likely to think that the professor was on their side.

如果只是批评性的反馈，教授可能会表达同样积极的意思，“我关心你”，但他们没有向对方明确表示，那么参与者就不太可能认为教授站在他们一边。

And in our work, in some small studies, we showed that even seventh graders, when they get critical feedback on their essays, are about twice as likely to implement the teacher's critical feedback with even a very short invocation of the high standards and the high support.

在我们的工作中，在一些小型研究中，我们表明，即使是七年级学生，当他们的论文得到批评性反馈时，即使是很短的高标准和高支持，他们实施老师批评性反馈的可能性也会增加一倍。

So to get to your question about mentor mindset, at some point I got worried that our experiment on high standards, high support messages, which we called wise feedback in those studies, would be viewed as a...

因此，为了回答你关于导师心态的问题，在某些时候，我担心我们关于高标准、高支持信息的实验，我们在这些研究中称之为明智的反馈，会被视为……

I don't know, like a magic phrase.

我不知道，就像一个神奇的短语。

Like my joke, my laugh line, this is a lame laugh line, but I'm a professor, so that's the best I can do.

就像我的笑话，我的笑线，这是一条蹩脚的笑线，但我是一名教授，所以这是我能做的最好的事情。

My laugh line was always, I just live in fear that Pearson and other textbook companies are going to sell wise feedback posted notes and say they can magically erase the achievement gap.

我的笑声一直是，我只是生活在恐惧之中，担心培生和其他教科书公司会出售明智的反馈贴条，并说他们可以神奇地消除成绩差距。

And I always said that as a joke, and then two things happened.

我总是开玩笑地说这句话，然后发生了两件事。

One is a popular author, a guy named Dan Coyle, literally called it magic feedback in his book, didn't cite us, but like...

其中一位是一位受欢迎的作家，名叫丹·科伊尔（Dan Coyle），在他的书中字面意思是“神奇反馈”，没有引用我们，但就像......

You didn't say this?

你没说这个？

No. Dan.

不，丹。

But also like magic.

但也喜欢魔法。

I'll say it so you don't have to.

我会这么说，这样你就不用说了。

Not cool.

不酷。

Attribution is important.

归因很重要。

It's just not, it's not magic at all.

事实并非如此，这根本不是什么魔法。

The magic of high standards and high support is not...

高标准、高支持的魔力不在于……

The 18 words.

18个字。

It's I'm taking you seriously in a moment when you're vulnerable and I have power over you.

当你脆弱的时候，我会认真对待你，而我对你有力量。

That is just so deeply human and so powerful.

这就是如此深刻的人性和如此强大的力量。

But there's nothing about the magic words.

但魔法词什么也没有。

It's the...

这是...

It's the experience of dignity and respect when you are questioning whether you are either worthy of it or going to be given it by authorities.

当你质疑自己是否值得或是否会被当局给予尊严和尊重时，这是一种尊严和尊重的体验。

It's interesting.

这很有趣。

We had Dr. Becky Kennedy on here to talk about parenting.

我们邀请了贝基·肯尼迪博士来谈论育儿问题。

Oh, yeah.

哦，是的。

And she said many important things, but among them was the fact that children, perhaps all people, want to feel real.

她说了很多重要的话，但其中一个事实是，孩子们，也许是所有人，都想要感觉真实。

Yeah.

是的。

And they want to feel safe.

他们想要感到安全。

Yeah.

是的。

An important concept that I think many people heard and are really interested in.

我认为很多人都听说过并且真正感兴趣的一个重要概念。

Internalizing.

内化。

I know I am for sure.

我知道我是肯定的。

And this idea of feeling real has to do with not just feeling seen, but that people believe us, even if they disagree with us.

这种感觉真实的想法不仅与感觉被看到有关，还与人们相信我们有关，即使他们不同意我们的观点。

Yeah.

是的。

Like they believe us.

就像他们相信我们一样。

She has another thing that's super profound is the kind of two things argument that I can both have high expectations for my kids and love my kids.

她还有另一件非常深刻的事情，那就是我既可以对我的孩子抱有很高的期望，又可以爱我的孩子。

And I think that's a very good version of wise feedback mentor mindset.

我认为这是明智反馈导师心态的一个很好的版本。

That as parents, it either feels like I can expect a lot of my kids, but then I'm a monster and they're going to yell at me or I'm going to be a pushover and then they're going to be unruly.

作为父母，要么感觉我可以对我的孩子有很多期望，但然后我就是一个怪物，他们会对我大喊大叫，或者我会成为一个容易屈服的人，然后他们就会变得不守规矩。

And I think part of her wisdom is to help explain to parents how you can do both of those things.

我认为她的智慧之一就是帮助向父母解释如何才能做到这两件事。

And indeed one can, right?

确实可以，对吧？

But it requires having a kind of dynamic stance or dynamic mindset as the teacher, the leader, the coach, the parent.

但这需要作为老师、领导者、教练、家长拥有一种动态的立场或动态的心态。

I'd like to take a brief break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, Waking Up.

我想短暂休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商之一“醒来”。

Waking Up is a meditation app that offers hundreds of guided meditations, mindfulness trainings, Yoga Nidra sessions, and more.

Wake Up 是一款冥想应用程序，提供数百种引导冥想、正念训练、瑜伽休息课程等。

I started meditating over three decades ago, and what I found in the ensuing years is that sometimes it was very easy for me to do my daily meditation practice.

我三十多年前开始冥想，在接下来的几年里我发现，有时我每天的冥想练习非常容易。

I was just really diligent.

我只是真的很勤奋。

But then as things would get more stressful, which of course is exactly when I should have been meditating more, my meditation practice would fall off.

但随着事情变得更加紧张，这当然正是我应该更多冥想的时候，我的冥想练习就会下降。

With Waking Up, they make it very easy to find and consistently use a given meditation practice.

通过唤醒，他们可以很容易地找到并持续使用给定的冥想练习。

It has very convenient reminders and they come in different durations.

它有非常方便的提醒，并且提醒的持续时间不同。

So even if you just have one minute or five minutes to meditate, you can still get your meditation in, which research shows is still highly beneficial.

因此，即使您只有一分钟或五分钟的冥想时间，您仍然可以进行冥想，研究表明这仍然非常有益。

In addition to the many different meditations on the Waking Up app, they also have Yoga Nidra sessions, which are a form of non-sleep deep rest that I personally find is extremely valuable for restoring mental and physical vigor.

除了唤醒应用程序上的许多不同冥想之外，他们还提供瑜伽休息课程，这是一种非睡眠深度休息形式，我个人认为对于恢复精神和身体活力非常有价值。

I tend to do a Yoga Nidra lasting anywhere from 10 to 20 minutes at least once a day.

我倾向于每天至少进行一次持续 10 到 20 分钟的瑜伽休息术。

And if I ever wake up in the middle of the night and I need to fall back asleep, I also find Yoga Nidra to be extremely useful.

如果我在半夜醒来并需要重新入睡，我也发现瑜伽休息术非常有用。

If you'd like to try the Waking Up app, you can go to wakingup.com slash Huberman to try a free 30-day trial.

如果您想尝试 Waking Up 应用程序，可以访问 wakingup.comlash Huberman 尝试 30 天免费试用。

Again, that's wakingup.com slash Huberman.

再说一遍，这是 wakingup.com 斜线 Huberman。

I want to get back to some of the mechanics of how to go about that.

我想回到一些如何实现这一点的机制。

But why do you think this stuff is so hard?

但你为什么觉得这个东西这么难呢？

Like if we think about, I don't know, kind of a...

就像我们想一想，我不知道，有点......

Curbside evolutionary theory, meaning I don't have any formal training in evolutionary psychology.

路边进化论，这意味着我没有接受过任何进化心理学的正式培训。

You could step back and say, like, I don't know, maybe we just used to be so busy from morning to sleep that we didn't really have time to do anything except the stuff we needed to complete in order to feed our families and take care of our communities, et cetera.

你可以退后一步说，我不知道，也许我们过去从早上到睡觉都很忙，除了我们需要完成的事情来养家糊口和照顾我们的社区等等，我们真的没有时间做任何事情。

And now a number of things are outsourced.

现在很多事情都外包了。

And so here we have this notion of strivings.

所以这里我们就有了奋斗的概念。

But then again, you know, we went from hunter-gatherer.

但话又说回来，你知道，我们来自狩猎采集者。

Cultures to writing War and Peace and everything else, technologies of all kinds.

从文化到写作战争与和平以及其他一切，各种技术。

So there must be something in the human brain that causes us to strive.

所以人脑中一定有某种东西促使我们努力奋斗。

And what we're really talking about here is striving and our relationship with striving.

我们在这里真正谈论的是奋斗以及我们与奋斗的关系。

So if we were to step back and just say, okay, what do you think?

因此，如果我们退一步说，好吧，你觉得怎么样？

Determines whether or not someone feels they can do better.

确定某人是否认为自己可以做得更好。

Is it early success?

这是早期的成功吗？

You know, they tried at something.

你知道，他们尝试过一些事情。

I mean, everyone, most everyone, I assume, who tries to learn to walk, walks, learns to speak, speaks.

我的意思是，每个人，我想几乎每个人，都试图学习走路，走路，学习说话，说话。

You know, they're rare exceptions.

你知道，他们是罕见的例外。

But, you know, what do you think this whole thing about strivings is about?

但是，你知道，你认为奋斗的全部意义是什么？

And when we talk about growth mindset, stress is enhancing mindset, the mentor mindset, I mean, are we trying to get back to activating systems that are hardwired within us?

当我们谈论成长心态时，压力正在增强心态，导师心态，我的意思是，我们是否试图回到激活我们内在的硬连线系统？

And that have been kind of masked by daily life?

这已经被日常生活所掩盖了吗？

Or are we trying to kind of better ourselves and our species through, you know, like really trying to do something that's never been done in human history before?

或者我们是否正在尝试通过，你知道，就像真正尝试做一些人类历史上从未做过的事情来改善我们自己和我们的物种？

Right.

正确的。

It's a big question.

这是一个大问题。

But I mean I think that all I can do is conjecture, you know, as a scientist.

但我的意思是，作为一名科学家，我认为我所能做的就是猜测。

But I'm often reminded of something I heard from Ron Dahl, who's a Neuroscientist at Berkeley.

但我经常想起从伯克利大学神经科学家罗恩·达尔那里听到的一些事情。

Not Ronald Dahl, the children's doctor.

不是儿童医生罗纳德·达尔。

Not Rald Dahl.

不是拉尔德·达尔。

Ron Dahl.

罗恩·达尔.

Although Ron is just.

虽然罗恩是正义的。

So this is an awesome guy.

所以这是一个很棒的人。

It's like just polymath who can do everything and just so curious and generous.

这就像博学多才，无所不能，而且充满好奇和慷慨。

He what he always says to me is like, look it's like, David, what do you think the human brain wants to do?

他总是对我说，大卫，你认为人脑想要做什么？

Like, I don't know.

就像，我不知道。

Feel good.

感觉很好。

He's like, no. He wants to feel better.

他就像，不。他想要感觉更好。

And I think what he was trying to get me to see is that it's the kind of pursuit of some kind of delta and Yeah, a change from the state.

我认为他想让我看到的是，这是对某种三角洲的追求，是的，来自国家的改变。

And I think the argument is that even if you are If what you thought was your biggest need, if that was satisfied, then there's always like another thing I think is part of the argument.

我认为争论的焦点是，即使你认为你最大的需求是什么，如果它得到了满足，那么我认为总会有另一件事是争论的一部分。

And so but it's also this idea that if you think of the human brain as trying to learn at all times, like what is it trying to learn?

所以，这也是一个想法，如果你认为人类大脑一直在努力学习，比如它试图学习什么？

And the at least in the animal studies, as you know, often it's like how do I either feel better or avoid feeling worse in a lot of ways.

至少在动物研究中，正如你所知，通常我会在很多方面感觉更好或避免感觉更糟。

And I think that as I think about adolescence That's a period where your theory of how to feel better is dramatically changing because you're no longer fully cared for by adults.

我认为，当我想到青春期时，你关于如何感觉更好的理论正在发生巨大的变化，因为你不再受到成年人的充分照顾。

All of a sudden, your criteria for feeling good about yourself is your social standing, not just in your parents'eyes, but in the eyes of the community in the milieu you're a part of.

突然间，你自我感觉良好的标准就是你的社会地位，不仅是在你父母的眼中，而且是在你所在环境的社区的眼中。

And that comes a lot from your contribution value.

这很大程度上来自于你的贡献价值。

If you think in our evolutionary history, being ostracized and alone is certain death in ancient history.

如果你想想我们的进化史，在古代历史中，被排斥和孤独是必然的死亡。

Human cultures, right?

人类文化，对吗？

I mean, you can't, the tribe's wandering around in the savannah, you're alone.

我的意思是，你不能，部落在大草原上徘徊，你独自一人。

At a minimum, you have no one to watch out for you when you fall asleep.

至少，当你入睡时，没有人照顾你。

And so, humans can't sleep in trees because our muscles don't contract when we're asleep, unlike animals.

因此，人类无法在树上睡觉，因为我们的肌肉在睡觉时不会收缩，这与动物不同。

And so, you're just exposed on the ground.

所以，你只是暴露在地面上。

If you're alone, eventually you're going to die.

如果你孤独一人，最终你会死。

Right.

正确的。

So the fear of...

所以害怕...

Moving from parents taking care of your safety all night to now you have to trust peers to take care of you and watch over you.

从父母整夜照顾你的安全到现在，你必须相信同龄人会照顾你、监视你。

That comes to the forefront of young people's minds, kind of the minute puberty strikes.

在青春期到来的那一刻，这个问题就成为了年轻人最关心的问题。

And so what it means to feel better often is that I'm socially valued by the group.

因此，经常感觉更好意味着我受到团体的社会重视。

There's something, they're going to keep me around for some reason.

有件事，他们会出于某种原因把我留在身边。

Now, they don't often keep score in an explicit way.

现在，他们通常不以明确的方式记分。

I mean, now things are in Social Media.

我的意思是，现在一切都在社交媒体上。

Maybe they're kind of keeping score.

也许他们是在记分。

But, like, the rules of how you're doing socially are so implicit.

但是，就像，你的社交行为规则是如此隐含。

You have to read between the lines.

你必须读懂字里行间的意思。

They're inferred.

他们是推断出来的。

Social hierarchy is very...

社会等级制度非常...

Complex for Adolescents And so they overdo it thinking through.

青少年的复杂性 所以他们过度思考。

Like, how am I standing?

比如，我站得怎么样？

Like, where am I relative to others?

比如，我相对于其他人处于什么位置？

Now that process is started by puberty and we know from lots of species work that it then leads to changes in the brain.

现在这个过程是从青春期开始的，我们从许多物种研究中知道，它会导致大脑的变化。

So the dopaminergic system, of course, is like driven in part by changes in gonadal maturation.

因此，多巴胺能系统当然部分是由性腺成熟的变化驱动的。

Ron likes to talk about these great studies of songbirds.

罗恩喜欢谈论这些关于鸣禽的伟大研究。

How do they learn the mating calls?

它们如何学习交配叫声？

And if songbirds don't have testosterone, when they...

如果鸣禽没有睾丸激素，当它们......

Are learning the mating calls.

正在学习交配叫声。

They don't do the over-the-top obsessive practice, so they don't master them.

他们不会进行过度的强迫性练习，所以他们无法掌握它们。

And then they don't mate and they die alone.

然后它们不再交配，孤独地死去。

Interesting.

有趣的。

Yeah, I'm familiar with that literature.

是的，我很熟悉那些文献。

There's a great, unfortunately now passed away, biologist who was first in the UK and then was up at UC Davis, Peter Marler, who studied the birdsong learning.

有一位伟大的生物学家彼得·马勒（Peter Marler），不幸的是现在去世了，他先是在英国，然后在加州大学戴维斯分校学习，研究鸟鸣学习。

Yeah.

是的。

It's amazing work.

这是一项了不起的工作。

Yeah, it's amazing work and it mimics a lot of the development of human speech, although not exactly.

是的，这是一项了不起的工作，它模仿了人类语言的很多发展，尽管不完全一样。

There's this babbling phase where babies and birds experiment with different tones.

在咿呀学语的阶段，婴儿和鸟类会尝试不同的音调。

Tones and they're learning to use the pharynx and larynx or, you know, in birds, it's a slightly different system.

音调，他们正在学习使用咽和喉，或者，你知道，在鸟类中，这是一个略有不同的系统。

And some birds are seasonal singers, but I wasn't familiar with this result that the testosterone drives a kind of obsessive practice.

有些鸟儿是季节性歌手，但我不熟悉睾丸激素驱动一种强迫性练习的结果。

Yeah.

是的。

It's obsessive practice in order to demonstrate status, but really your value.

这是为了展示地位而进行的强迫性做法，但这确实是你的价值。

I mean, there it's mate value, right?

我的意思是，这就是伴侣价值，对吧？

But I think the same thing is true for lots of things that teenagers travel, it could be playing guitar, you know, could be gymnastics.

但我认为青少年旅行的很多事情也是如此，可能是弹吉他，也可能是体操。

I mean, think about How many of their Olympic athletes are like 14, right?

我的意思是，想一想他们的奥运会运动员中有多少人是 14 岁左右，对吧？

And they're waking up at 4 in the morning, they're practicing obsessively.

他们早上四点就起床，全神贯注地练习。

How many like pro-social hackers who take down evil foreign governments, right, are teenagers, right?

有多少像亲社会黑客一样推翻邪恶的外国政府的青少年，对吧？

There are things that take so much practice and so much learning happen at the exact same age as adults are saying these kids are lazy and don't want to work.

有些事情需要大量的练习和大量的学习，而成年人却说这些孩子很懒，不想工作，而他们的年龄却是一样的。

Right?

正确的？

So I tend to focus on, let's get to your question about why do people strive to get better?

所以我倾向于关注，让我们回答你的问题：为什么人们努力变得更好？

I think In adolescence, you look around in your social milieu and see what counts for status, not in a superficial way, although it sometimes happens, but often in a deeply meaningful way.

我认为在青春期，你环顾四周的社会环境，看看什么对地位重要，不是以肤浅的方式，虽然有时会发生，但通常是以一种深刻有意义的方式。

What am I going to bring to the table?

我要带来什么？

One would hope.

人们会希望。

And then I remember junior high school being far more superficial.

然后我记得初中的时候要肤浅得多。

But I'm 48, so I remember it in kind of the John Hughes film era where people were very divided in terms of jocks and skateboarders and rockers and nerds.

但我已经 48 岁了，所以我记得约翰·休斯的电影时代，人们在运动员、滑板手、摇滚乐手和书呆子方面存在很大分歧。

Now it seems a little bit more mishmashed.

现在看起来有点混乱了。

But I think also people will in adolescence I feel like kids find their niche and then try and excel within that niche.

但我认为人们也会在青春期，我觉得孩子们会找到自己的利基，然后尝试在这个利基中脱颖而出。

Yeah.

是的。

You know, as opposed to high school or junior high school being one huge hierarchy.

你知道，高中或初中是一个巨大的等级制度。

Yeah.

是的。

You know, there's kind of these sub-hierarchies.

你知道，有一些子层次结构。

Yeah.

是的。

Dan McFarland is a sociologist at Stanford, did this really interesting study with the ad health data.

丹·麦克法兰是斯坦福大学的社会学家，他利用广告健康数据做了这项非常有趣的研究。

And it turns out you could characterize the social hierarchies in different high schools by kind of single pyramid high schools versus multi-pyramid high schools.

事实证明，您可以通过单金字塔高中与多金字塔高中来描述不同高中的社会等级制度。

And there's way better adjustment in the.

并且有更好的调整方式。

Multi-pyramid high schools because there's many roots to status.

多金字塔高中因为地位有很多根源。

The evolutionary psychologist Bruce Ellis talks about having many roles.

进化心理学家布鲁斯·埃利斯谈到了扮演多种角色。

And I like that because in the old model, you know, if there's one pyramid and you're kind of near the top but not at the top, you've got a lot of incentive to destroy reputations, be, you know, mean girls type of behavior.

我喜欢这一点，因为在旧的模式中，你知道，如果有一个金字塔，而你接近顶部但不是顶部，你就有很大的动力去破坏声誉，你知道，这是卑鄙女孩的行为。

Bob Ferris, sociologist at Davis, finds that the most bullying in high school is the people that are like the 60th, the 85th percentile on popularity.

戴维斯大学的社会学家鲍勃·费里斯 (Bob Ferris) 发现，高中阶段最容易受到欺凌的是那些受欢迎程度在 60%、85% 左右的人。

It's like you're near the top but not all the way at the top.

就好像你已经接近顶峰，但还没有完全达到顶峰。

Yeah, this maps very well to Robert Sapolsky's work on primate troops.

是的，这与罗伯特·萨波尔斯基（Robert Sapolsky）关于灵长类动物部队的工作非常吻合。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah, the alphas are stressed, but the sub-alphas are they have options.

是的，阿尔法人有压力，但次阿尔法人有选择。

Yeah.

是的。

And this is true for female and male animals.

对于雌性和雄性动物来说都是如此。

Just as it's true we were talking about testosterone a few minutes ago in obsessive practice.

正如事实一样，几分钟前我们在痴迷的练习中谈论了睾酮。

I will remind people that in women they actually have adult women have more testosterone than they do estrogen if you look at a pure nanogram per deciliter comparison.

我要提醒人们，如果你看一下每分升的纯纳克比较，成年女性的睾酮水平实际上比雌激素水平要高。

It's just that overall it tends to be on average less than in men.

只是总体而言，它的平均水平往往低于男性。

So the statement about testosterone and obsessive learning or efforts to learn, I have to imagine is not restricted to males or females.

因此，关于睾丸激素和强迫性学习或努力学习的说法，我必须想象并不仅限于男性或女性。

Yeah, and I think I understand as a man praising testosterone that I could come across.

是的，我想我理解作为一个赞扬睾丸激素的男人，我可以遇到。

But I so I always need to remember that the research is very interesting on tea.

但我总是需要记住，关于茶的研究非常有趣。

So, Eveline Krohn's lab did these great studies where they had kids starting age 10 to like 25, and they had them come in the lab twice, and they took testosterone levels, but also had them do a bunch of tasks in the scanner.

因此，Eveline Krohn 的实验室做了这些伟大的研究，他们让 10 岁到 25 岁的孩子来到实验室两次，测量睾酮水平，同时还让他们在扫描仪中完成一系列任务。

And you can look at nucleus accumbens, prefrontal cortex, et cetera.

你可以观察伏隔核、前额皮质等。

Errors associated with reward.

与奖励相关的错误。

Yeah.

是的。

And pursuit, motivation.

还有追求、动力。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

And they also had them do risk-taking tasks.

他们还让他们做冒险的任务。

And what they find is that in both boys and girls, testosterone goes up over time.

他们发现，无论男孩还是女孩，睾丸激素都会随着时间的推移而上升。

It starts a little earlier in girls because gonadarchy is one or two years before boys.

女孩的性腺发育早一点，因为性腺发育比男孩早一两年。

But the change score from one point to the next was equally predictive of neural reactivity during risk-taking tasks for both boys and girls.

但从一个点到下一个点的分数变化同样可以预测男孩和女孩在冒险任务期间的神经反应。

So although boys end up with higher T throughout adolescence.

因此，尽管男孩在整个青春期的 T 值都较高。

The increase is equally predictive, which is another way of saying it's just as important for these social learning things in girls.

这种增加同样具有预测性，换句话说，这对于女孩的社交学习同样重要。

And tea, by the way, is just a really good...

顺便说一句，茶真的是一种很好的...

Testosterone is a really good proxy.

睾酮是一个非常好的替代品。

Other hormones are involved too.

其他激素也参与其中。

They're just more complicated.

它们只是更复杂。

Like DHEA, you could...

像 DHEA 一样，您可以...

Study as well, but that's part of the same metabolic pathway of cortisol and testosterone.

也进行研究，但这是皮质醇和睾酮同一代谢途径的一部分。

So it's just messier and harder to interpret.

所以它更加混乱并且更难以解释。

So we're not making claims specifically about testosterone.

因此，我们并不是专门针对睾酮提出主张。

It's just like a really good proxy for where you are in gonadal maturation.

它就像一个非常好的代表您的性腺成熟程度的指标。

And both boys and girls, gonadal maturation really matters for this kind of status, social seeking part of your brain.

无论男孩还是女孩，性腺的成熟对于大脑中的这种地位、社交寻求部分都非常重要。

Yeah, so if I understand correctly, the slope of the line of one's testosterone increase for both boys and girls is predictive of striving.

是的，所以如果我理解正确的话，男孩和女孩的睾丸激素增加线的斜率预示着努力。

If it's a steep upward line, then that's associated with more striving in a given practice.

如果它是一条陡峭的上升线，那么这与在特定练习中付出更多的努力有关。

To the extent that like neural activation during a social reward task or a risk-taking task is a proxy for striving.

在某种程度上，像社会奖励任务或冒险任务期间的神经激活是努力的代表。

And that's what a lot of people have argued.

这就是很多人争论的问题。

Do you think that striving reflects the action of a, you know, kind of a basic neural circuit that then can be applied to other things or lots of different things?

你是否认为努力反映了一种基本神经回路的行为，然后可以应用于其他事物或许多不同的事物？

The reason I ask is that, you know, the notion of growth mindset is so attractive.

我问的原因是，你知道，成长心态的概念非常有吸引力。

It's such a sticky idea because, or I think because one imagines, okay, if I can get really good at one thing, chess, then I can apply the same kind of relationship to the internal state of stress or arousal or what You get a new environment of another kind, a physical practice or a relationship challenge or something of that sort that you know, what we're really talking about here is an algorithm that can be directed at different pursuits as opposed to growth mindset is applied in one context and not another.

这是一个很棘手的想法，因为，或者我认为，因为人们想象，好吧，如果我能真正擅长一件事，国际象棋，那么我可以将同样的关系应用于压力或唤醒的内部状态，或者你得到另一种新环境，身体练习或关系挑战或你知道的类似的东西，我们在这里真正讨论的是一种可以针对不同追求的算法，而不是在一种情况下应用成长心态，而不是另一种情况。

So what of that?

那么那又怎样呢？

People who are incredibly good at accessing growth mindset in one domain of life, does that mean that they'll be good at accessing growth mindset in another domain of life?

那些在生活的一个领域非常擅长获得成长心态的人，这是否意味着他们也会擅长在生活的另一个领域获得成长心态？

What's the carryover or the spillover?

什么是结转或溢出？

It's a great question.

这是一个很好的问题。

It comes up a lot.

它出现了很多。

The Michigan State psychologist, Jason Mosier, studied this and they measured growth mindset about your intelligence, the classic one, your personality, your morality, your social relationships, your emotions, etc. And the question is, Is there kind of like one growth mindset that applies in all the different ways or are there?

密歇根州立大学心理学家贾森·莫西尔（Jason Mosier）对此进行了研究，他们测量了关于你的智力、经典思维、你的个性、你的道德、你的社会关系、你的情绪等的成长心态。问题是，是否存在一种适用于所有不同方式的成长心态？

Totally narrow mindsets that have nothing to do with each other, or is it something in between?

完全狭隘的思维方式彼此无关，还是介于两者之间？

And the finding was that there is an overall association.

结果发现存在总体关联。

If you think one trait can change and be developed, you tend to think another trait can be changed and developed.

如果您认为一种特质可以改变和发展，那么您倾向于认为另一种特质可以改变和发展。

And just empirically, it's hard to separate that from people's general tendency to disagree or agree with items that could be what the common factor is.

仅凭经验来看，很难将其与人们不同意或同意可能是共同因素的项目的一般倾向区分开来。

But it kind of makes sense.

但这有点道理。

However...

然而...

There's also very domain-specific mindsets.

还有非常特定领域的思维方式。

So there are people who think...

所以有人认为...

Yeah, I can get smarter, but I can't change my shyness.

是的，我可以变得更聪明，但我无法改变我的害羞。

And other people would think.

其他人也会这么想。

My relationships are never going to get better, but I can learn to play the cello, you know, and vice versa.

我的人际关系永远不会变得更好，但我可以学习拉大提琴，你知道，反之亦然。

And when you want to predict behavior, it turns out that the closer you are to that domain, the better the prediction is going to be.

当您想要预测行为时，事实证明您离该领域越近，预测效果就越好。

So if I want to know if you're going to quit playing the cello or not, I'm going to ask you your cello mindset.

所以，如果我想知道你是否打算放弃大提琴演奏，我会问你你的大提琴心态。

That's going to do way better than, in general, can human qualities change.

这比一般情况下人类品质的改变要好得多。

But if I'm going to intervene.

但如果我要介入的话。

At what level should the intervention happen?

干预应该在什么水平上进行？

If I only change your cello mindset, well, you're right.

如果我只是改变你的大提琴心态，那么你是对的。

Like what if cello isn't your thing in life?

就像如果大提琴不是你生活中的东西怎么办？

Now are you going to be fixed mindset for your relationships in school?

现在你会对学校的人际关系采取固定心态吗？

And did I not really help you?

而且我真的没有帮助你吗？

So, um...

所以，嗯...

The Kind of the empirical answer currently.

当前的经验答案类型。

Is If it's a...

是如果它是一个...

Domain that someone could be really defensive about.

有人可能会真正防御的领域。

It's better to be a little vaguer about it.

最好说得含糊一点。

A classic example is Iran-Halperin's work on the Israel-Palestine conflict, which is obviously a big issue right now.

一个典型的例子是伊朗-哈尔佩林在以色列-巴勒斯坦冲突方面的工作，这显然是目前的一个大问题。

Their science paper in 2011.

他们 2011 年的科学论文。

Changed mindsets about group conflict in general.

总体上改变了对群体冲突的看法。

Can an ethnic group or a national group ever change?

一个族群或一个国家群体会改变吗？

They didn't go to people in Israel and say, Palestinians can change.

他们没有去找以色列人说，巴勒斯坦人可以改变。

Because they're like, no, they can't.

因为他们就像，不，他们不能。

That's not possible.

那是不可能的。

But if they said, you know, sometimes leaders change, and when leaders change, the group's priorities change, and they become more amenable to negotiation.

但如果他们说，你知道，有时候领导者会改变，当领导者改变时，团队的优先事项就会改变，他们就会变得更愿意谈判。

And when that happens, things can change.

当这种情况发生时，事情就会发生变化。

If that was done at a more general level, then both Israelis and Palestinians were more open to a peace process.

如果这是在更普遍的层面上进行的，那么以色列人和巴勒斯坦人都对和平进程更加开放。

So I think if it's something you're very defensive about, I tend to think.

所以我认为如果这是你非常防御的事情，我倾向于认为。

Back up and do the more abstract mindset.

备份并做更抽象的思维。

Another example is I remember I was in graduate school at Stanford and one of my RAs was so excited about our work and he went to a party and talked about it.

另一个例子是，我记得我在斯坦福大学读研究生时，我的一位 RA 对我们的工作非常兴奋，他参加了一个聚会并谈论了它。

It's like that very Stanford thing to do is talk about research at a party.

就像斯坦福大学所做的一件事情就是在聚会上谈论研究一样。

And he's like, oh yeah, math ability can change.

他说，哦，是的，数学能力是可以改变的。

You don't have to be dumb at math forever.

你不必永远在数学上保持愚蠢。

And the person he talked to was so offended.

与他交谈的人非常生气。

She was like, are you telling me I could have done better in high school math and I just didn't try hard enough?

她说，你是在告诉我，我高中数学本可以做得更好，但我只是不够努力吗？

And my life could be different.

我的生活可能会有所不同。

I could be an engineer right now.

我现在可以成为一名工程师。

Like I like my life.

就像我喜欢我的生活一样。

Why are you telling it was it went down this road of like how dare you tell me it could have been different and I, who knows, maybe he had bad delivery and had 14 margaritas and that's, who knows what happened.

你为什么要说它是沿着这条路走的，就像你怎么敢告诉我它可能会有所不同，我，谁知道，也许他送货不顺利，喝了 14 杯玛格丽特酒，谁知道发生了什么。

But I think the idea is like, if, if someone's got a reason to.

但我认为这个想法就像，如果，如果有人有理由这样做。

Think about that fixed mindset as...

将固定型思维模式视为...

Comforting in some way, that they don't have to feel bad about something that could have been different, it's probably not smart to go after that in a very specific way.

在某种程度上令人欣慰的是，他们不必为可能有所不同的事情感到难过，以一种非常具体的方式追求这一点可能并不明智。

But if someone's not defensive, generally the closer to the domain, the better, because they're going to see the application.

但如果某人不采取防御措施，通常离该领域越近越好，因为他们会看到该应用程序。

Otherwise they have to use it by analogy, and we know analogic reasoning is tough because it's hit or miss.

否则他们就必须通过类比来使用它，我们知道类比推理很困难，因为它时好时坏。

We love stories of people that have come from a place of being really back on their heels or even just dissolved into a puddle of their own tears to doing well again, maybe even soaring again.

我们喜欢这样的故事：人们从一个真正落后的地方走来，甚至只是溶解在自己的泪水中，然后再次表现出色，甚至可能再次飞升。

It's sort of the common thing is that this is the classic American story, although it's true of people all over the world, I imagine.

常见的一点是，这是经典的美国故事，尽管我想这对世界各地的人来说都是如此。

It's not always true in America either, but yeah.

在美国也不总是这样，但是是的。

Right.

正确的。

Some people crash and burn, but it seems like everybody loves a comeback story.

有些人崩溃了，但似乎每个人都喜欢东山再起的故事。

Right.

正确的。

I don't know.

我不知道。

Something about that.

与此有关的一些事情。

The hero's journey, the hero of a thousand faces, is that the book, Joseph Campbell?

英雄之旅，千面英雄，是这本书吗，约瑟夫·坎贝尔？

Yeah.

是的。

And it's written into so many movies and books and real life stories.

它被写入了许多电影、书籍和现实生活故事中。

I can't help but superimpose today's discussion onto something like that, right?

我忍不住把今天的讨论叠加到类似的事情上，对吧？

That, you know, that life is a series of efforts to apply growth mindset from learning how to walk, right?

你知道，生活就是通过学习走路来应用成长心态的一系列努力，对吗？

So it presumably is part of that, right?

所以它大概是其中的一部分，对吗？

I don't know any child that just stands up and walks early on to the things that we really think we can perform well at to finding ourselves like really back on our heels.

我不知道有哪个孩子会早早地站起来，去做那些我们真正认为自己可以做得很好的事情，然后发现自己真的又落后了。

And so are there any data or theories even that point to the use of growth mindset and stress is enhancing mindset in coming from a real place of deficit?

那么，是否有任何数据或理论表明，使用成长心态和压力可以增强来自真正赤字的心态？

Not just from trying to do better and learn new things, but from a real place of deficit, a real place of challenge.

不仅仅是试图做得更好和学习新事物，而是来自真正的赤字、真正的挑战。

I think it's important for our audience to hear because I think a number of people do feel back on their heels in one or more domains of life.

我认为这对我们的观众来说很重要，因为我认为很多人确实在生活的一个或多个领域感到落后。

Yeah, it's a good question.

是的，这是一个好问题。

I mean, I think that the data suggests that growth mindset becomes most relevant to your next behavior the more challenge you face.

我的意思是，我认为数据表明，你面临的挑战越大，成长心态与你的下一步行为最相关。

And so for a long time what that meant is if you maybe were a low-achieving student and we're going to evaluate growth mindset by looking at your grades, you should see bigger gains for low-achieving students compared to high-achieving students.

因此，在很长一段时间内，这意味着，如果您可能是一名成绩不佳的学生，并且我们将通过查看您的成绩来评估成长心态，那么与成绩优异的学生相比，您应该会看到成绩不佳的学生获得更大的进步。

Part of that could be an artifact.

其中一部分可能是人工制品。

If you already have straight A's, we can't give you more A's.

如果您已经获得全 A，我们就无法再为您提供更多 A。

It's impossible, right?

这是不可能的，对吧？

You know, in general, psychological treatments like a growth mindset tend to work better for people who counterfactually wouldn't have them and could plausibly benefit from them.

你知道，一般来说，像成长心态这样的心理治疗往往对那些反事实地不接受这些治疗并且可能从中受益的人更有效。

Where the story becomes more interesting is that often your kind of own individual difficulties are associated with your environment.

这个故事变得更有趣的是，你自己的个人困难通常与你的环境有关。

And the environment is really what allows you to apply your growth mindset over time.

环境确实可以让你随着时间的推移应用你的成长心态。

So it might make you right now need a growth mindset more.

所以这可能会让你现在更需要成长心态。

But it might make it harder for you to act on it.

但这可能会让你更难采取行动。

And so for people who like complex three-way interactions, the idea is that a treatment for growth mindset should work best for individuals who face the most challenges but are in the most supportive environments.

因此，对于喜欢复杂的三向互动的人来说，成长心态的治疗应该最适合那些面临最多挑战但处于最支持性环境中的人。

And one is like baseline, why do you need it?

第一个就像基线，为什么需要它？

And the other is over time, what's going to help you keep using it?

另一个是随着时间的推移，什么可以帮助你继续使用它？

So to be very concrete about this, in one paper we published in 2019, the National Study of Learning Mindsets.

为了更具体地说明这一点，我们在 2019 年发表了一篇论文《国家学习心态研究》。

It was published in Nature.

它发表在《自然》杂志上。

Evaluated growth mindset in this large national sample and the question wasn't does it work on average, the question was where does it work and for whom.

在这个庞大的全国样本中评估了成长心态，问题不是它平均是否有效，而是它在哪里有效以及对谁有效。

There were lots of replications already and sometimes people tried it and didn't work here.

已经有很多复制品了，有时人们尝试过但在这里不起作用。

Okay, well that's a puzzle.

好吧，这是一个谜题。

How do we figure that out?

我们如何弄清楚这一点？

And the finding was low-achieving students...

结果发现成绩不佳的学生......

In high schools that had a more supportive classroom culture, where you got the long-run effects.

在课堂文化更具支持性的高中，你会得到长期的影响。

And in the four-year results, it's low-achieving students in high schools that offered more advanced courses.

在四年的结果中，高中成绩较差的学生提供了更高级的课程。

So if you're a low achieving student, you get with mindset, it's like, great, give me pre-calculus.

因此，如果你是一名成绩不佳的学生，你的心态就会是，太好了，给我预科微积分吧。

Oh, we don't offer that here.

哦，我们这里不提供这个。

Or it's a toxic environment in some way.

或者在某种程度上这是一个有毒的环境。

Their teachers are untrained.

他们的老师没有受过训练。

They're first-year teachers.

他们是一年级老师。

There's lots of poverty in the school.

学校里有很多贫困人口。

If you don't have the structure to support the striving, you don't get the long-run effects, especially if the effects you're looking at are increases in equality of opportunity.

如果你没有支持奋斗的结构，你就不会获得长期效果，特别是如果你所看到的效果是机会平等的增加。

So for me, the message is, Like...

所以对我来说，传达的信息是，就像……

Think about growth mindset and psychological interventions as one tool in a toolkit to help people achieve their goals.

将成长心态和心理干预视为帮助人们实现目标的工具包中的一种工具。

But we can't forget about the entire field of sociology that tells us a lot about the allocation of resources through which people can even be afforded the chance to pursue their goals.

但我们不能忘记整个社会学领域，它告诉我们很多关于资源分配的知识，通过资源分配，人们甚至可以有机会追求自己的目标。

And so what I like about that finding, which by the way came from a collaboration with sociologists who thought, you psychologists are absurd.

所以我喜欢这个发现，顺便说一句，它来自与社会学家的合作，他们认为，你们心理学家是荒谬的。

They're like, you think your little mindset is going to change inequality?

他们说，你认为你的小心态会改变不平等吗？

You're going to make an argument to 15-year-olds and that's your plan for improving the American economy.

你要向 15 岁的人争论，这就是你改善美国经济的计划。

That's absurd.

这太荒谬了。

I was like, well, I don't know.

我当时想，好吧，我不知道。

You could do something.

你可以做点什么。

And psychologists are skeptical sociologists.

心理学家是持怀疑态度的社会学家。

They're like, look, how often do we have huge changes in law and policy?

他们就像，看，我们多久会在法律和政策上发生巨大的变化？

But people don't take advantage of the resources that are available to them.

但人们并没有利用他们可以获得的资源。

Let's change the behavior so they take advantage.

让我们改变行为，让他们利用。

We kind of came together and said, What does it look like to consider both the structure and the internal psychology?

我们聚在一起说，考虑结构和内部心理会是什么样子？

And I think this was a very important point because People tend to choose one or the other.

我认为这是非常重要的一点，因为人们倾向于选择其中之一。

Either we're going to lobby for new laws to reallocate resources, or we're going to optimize the psychology of the individual.

我们要么游说新的法律来重新分配资源，要么优化个人的心理。

And I think our perspective is...

我认为我们的观点是......

To find ways to bring those two together and kind of do both.

找到将两者结合在一起并同时做到这两点的方法。

Amen.

阿门。

And ultimately it's not a deficit-based perspective of you have a deficit and we're fixing that.

最终，这不是基于赤字的观点，即你有赤字，我们正在解决这个问题。

Growth mindset is more like, well, it's an asset-based perspective.

成长心态更像是一种基于资产的观点。

What I mean by that is we're not giving someone motivation in growth mindset.

我的意思是，我们并没有给予某人成长心态的动力。

We're presuming people already kind of want to do well.

我们假设人们已经想做得好。

They want to impress others.

他们想给别人留下深刻的印象。

They want to be meaningful.

他们想要变得有意义。

They want to contribute.

他们想要做出贡献。

But there's a barrier.

但有一个障碍。

The barrier is...

障碍是...

When you strive and then inevitably struggle, if you're pushing yourself beyond your abilities, people make you feel dumb for that struggle.

当你努力奋斗，然后不可避免地挣扎时，如果你把自己逼到超出自己的能力范围，人们就会因为你的挣扎而感到愚蠢。

So we're trying to remove that cultural and social barrier that's preventing people from their natural goal pursuit.

因此，我们正在努力消除阻碍人们追求自然目标的文化和社会障碍。

And that comes deeply from Carol Dweck's original work at the intersection of developmental and social psychology.

这深深地源自卡罗尔·德韦克（Carol Dweck）在发展心理学和社会心理学交叉领域的原创著作。

The basic claim in developmental psychology is the human being is an active learner who's trying to figure out the world.

发展心理学的基本主张是人类是一个积极的学习者，试图了解世界。

This is classic Alison Gopnik, Susan Gellman.

这是经典的艾莉森·高普尼克、苏珊·格尔曼。

Infants are meaning makers trying to interpret the world.

婴儿是试图解释世界的意义创造者。

And wanting to do well.

并且想要做得好。

And eventually they're socialized into beliefs that prevent them from acting on that basic neural desire to learn, grow, develop, et cetera.

最终，他们被社会化成一种信念，阻止他们按照学习、成长、发展等基本神经欲望行事。

And growth mindset is really, it's not trying to be a magic pill to give an unmotivated, disaffected kid a shot in the arm of adrenaline so they go out and learn.

成长心态确实是，它并不是想成为一颗神奇的药丸，给一个没有动力、心怀不满的孩子注射肾上腺素，让他们出去学习。

No, it presumes agency and love of learning and kind of like Dr. Becky said, it presumes the goodness.

不，它假定了代理性和对学习的热爱，就像贝基博士所说的那样，它假定了善良。

In kids and tries to remove whatever kind of garbage beliefs they've learned.

在孩子们身上，并试图消除他们学到的任何垃圾信念。

From social context.

从社会背景来看。

And then our long-term studies then Show how.

然后我们的长期研究将展示如何做到这一点。

Once you do that, if you're also in a context where you can act on that love of learning.

一旦你做到了这一点，如果你也处于一个可以发挥对学习的热爱的环境中。

Then you can see long run effects that are far more than what a lot of people have said you could get even in a disadvantaged context.

然后你就会看到长期的影响，这远远超出了很多人所说的，即使在不利的环境下也能得到的效果。

It's so interesting because what we're talking about here is psychological theory playing out in the real world, but also kind of like deep notions of the human spirit.

这很有趣，因为我们在这里谈论的是在现实世界中发挥作用的心理学理论，但也有点像人类精神的深层概念。

Like we are a species that seems to...

就像我们是一个似乎...

We organize our experience in terms of stories of ourselves and others, but that when it comes to things like strivings and learning.

我们根据自己和他人的故事来组织我们的经验，但当涉及到奋斗和学习等事情时。

I'm really always in a constant state of either...

我真的总是处于一种持续的状态......

Being more, to borrow the words of a friend of mine, either back on our heels, flat-footed, or forward center of mass, right?

借用我一个朋友的话来说，要么是后跟、措手不及，要么是重心前移，对吗？

And what we're talking about today is being forward center of mass, at least in certain areas of life.

我们今天谈论的是向前的质心，至少在生活的某些领域。

The fact that the reward systems of the brain, you mentioned them earlier, these mesolimbic reward pathways that basically deploy dopamine and other things, of course.

事实上，你之前提到过，大脑的奖励系统，这些中边缘奖励通路基本上部署多巴胺和其他东西，当然。

Are so associated with striving and achieving, striving and achieving, and presumably underlie.

与奋斗和成就、奋斗和成就密切相关，并且可能是其基础。

Much, if not all of our human evolution, assuming we're still evolving lately.

假设我们最近仍在进化，那么我们人类进化的大部分（如果不是全部）。

I sometimes I wonder, but some people would argue we're devolving, but I would argue we're still evolving.

我有时会想，但有些人会认为我们正在退化，但我认为我们仍在不断发展。

Especially with this new burst in AI.

尤其是随着人工智能的新爆发。

It's all about math nowadays, folks.

伙计们，现在一切都与数学有关。

A few years ago, it was all about neuroscience and neuroscience is still really important and the two share, but it's all about math lately.

几年前，一切都是关于神经科学的，神经科学仍然非常重要，而且两者是共享的，但最近一切都是关于数学的。

So I like to just think of the human animal as so different than the other animals of the planet.

所以我喜欢认为人类动物与地球上其他动物有很大不同。

Like we're the curators of the planet.

就像我们是这个星球的管理者一样。

The house cats might be striving, but they're clearly not doing as well as we are in terms of managing the way the world goes.

家猫可能正在努力，但在管理世界的发展方式方面，它们显然没有我们做得好。

So what do you think that this is like a basic algorithm within human beings to Look at ourselves, look at the environment, see challenges, overcome challenges, develop technologies.

那么你认为这就像人类内部的一个基本算法来审视自己，审视环境，看到挑战，克服挑战，开发技术。

It's just kind of like a it's like the same way my bulldog used to like to gnaw on things.

这有点像我的斗牛犬以前喜欢啃东西的方式。

You like to chew and pull.

你喜欢咀嚼和拉扯。

We just want to learn and grow.

我们只是想学习和成长。

Do you think it's inherent to who we are as a species?

你认为这是我们作为一个物种固有的吗？

Maybe even what sets our species apart from all the others?

也许是什么让我们的物种与其他物种区别开来？

I mean that's a profound question.

我的意思是这是一个深刻的问题。

I think that's a good one to debate.

我认为这是一个值得辩论的好话题。

What I've been really taken by recently is Carol Dweck's Secret Life as a Neuroscientist.

最近，我真正被卡罗尔·德韦克（Carol Dweck）的《神经科学家的秘密生活》所吸引。

She has this great psych review paper.

她有一篇很棒的心理学评论论文。

That contradicts a lot of received wisdom about prefrontal planning regions of the brain and the kind of amygdala and the hippocampus, the affective regions and the memory creation regions.

这与许多关于大脑前额叶规划区域、杏仁核和海马体、情感区域和记忆创造区域的认知相矛盾。

And the classic argument in going back to Plato and the Phaedrus, right, is that the rational acting part of the brain plans out what it wants, makes all these calculations, and then has to tame the emotional part.

回到柏拉图和《斐德罗篇》的经典论点是，大脑的理性行为部分计划出它想要的东西，进行所有这些计算，然后必须驯服情感部分。

In order to make those goals into a reality.

为了使这些目标成为现实。

And so the emotion, the amygdala, the mesolimbic, that's this unruly horse that the charioteer has to harness.

因此，情感、杏仁核、中脑边缘，就是战车御手必须驾驭的这匹不守规矩的马。

And I think that Carol argued, and I think other people have argued too, I've seen Adriana Galvan and Ron Dahl and others argue this, that...

我认为卡罗尔争论过，我认为其他人也争论过，我见过阿德里亚娜·加尔文（Adriana Galvan）和罗恩·达尔（Ron Dahl）以及其他人争论过这个，那个……

The affective regions are often the teacher and the pre-funnel is the student.

情感区域通常是老师，前漏斗区域是学生。

And that makes sense if you think about how humans are goal-directed.

如果你考虑一下人类是如何以目标为导向的，这是有道理的。

Think about how a kid learns to walk.

想想孩子是如何学习走路的。

They don't do that for theoretical reasons.

出于理论上的原因，他们不这样做。

They don't just like look at people walking and be like, I want to learn how to do that.

他们不只是喜欢看着人们走路然后说，我想学习如何做到这一点。

Right.

正确的。

I have four kids.

我有四个孩子。

It's usually because there's a toy at the other side of the room that they really, really want and that I don't want them to have.

通常是因为房间的另一边有一个他们非常非常想要的玩具，而我不想让他们拥有。

And the only way for them to go get it, because I won't get it for them, is for them to learn how to walk.

他们获得它的唯一方法是让他们学习如何走路，因为我不会为他们获得它。

So the motor learning is the effect of the desire in the goal pursuit.

所以运动学习是欲望在目标追求中的作用。

And what Carol argued is that…

卡罗尔认为……

And Phaedra's hat is totally wrong.

菲德拉的帽子是完全错误的。

It's not that the prefrontal charioteer is taming the emotional.

这并不是说前额叶的御手正在驯服情绪。

It's really that the affective part is training the prefrontal to be better at pursuing the goals that matter in the social milieu that you have.

事实上，情感部分正在训练前额叶，使其更好地追求在你所处的社会环境中重要的目标。

And a lot of people like Adriana Galvan and Jen Pfeiffer and Nim Tottenham in the adolescent space have...

很多青少年领域的人，比如阿德里亚娜·加尔文 (Adriana Galvan)、珍·菲佛 (Jen Pfeiffer) 和尼姆·托特纳姆 (Nim Tottenham) 都……

Shown this, and I don't understand all the details fully, but the argument that I've heard is that once the scanning studies were able to switch from fMRI focused on simple activation to studies looking at connectivity, where you could get temporal ordering, then you could start seeing actually that, especially in adolescents, it's the same thing.

展示了这一点，我并不完全理解所有细节，但我听到的论点是，一旦扫描研究能够从专注于简单激活的功能磁共振成像转向研究连接性，在那里你可以获得时间顺序，那么你就可以开始看到实际上，特别是在青少年中，这是同一件事。

The affective regions are training or teaching or telling the prefrontal regions what to do.

情感区域正在训练、教导或告诉前额区域该做什么。

So I guess that's a long way of answering the question of, I think goal pursuit is fundamental to human nature.

所以我想这对于回答这个问题来说还有很长的路要走，我认为目标追求是人性的根本。

And I think that the brain and our adaptation is designed to help us learn how to be a lot better at pursuing whatever goals will help us survive in our environment.

我认为大脑和我们的适应能力旨在帮助我们学习如何更好地追求有助于我们在环境中生存的目标。

And the brain has to be adaptive to that environmental input because the environment's always changing.

大脑必须适应环境输入，因为环境总是在变化。

If it had only one way of pursuing its goals, then we would never survive.

如果它只有一种方式来实现其目标，那么我们将永远无法生存。

So it has to be the case that the planning, rational, observing part of the brain is actually responsive to what works.

因此，大脑中负责计划、理性、观察的部分必定会对有效的事情做出反应。

In your context for goal pursuit.

在您的背景下追求目标。

So again, I'm summarizing other people's work here, but that's how I see it.

再说一遍，我在这里总结了其他人的工作，但这就是我的看法。

Yeah.

是的。

I completely agree that emotions drive the more, it's called tactical circuitry of the prefrontal cortex.

我完全同意情绪驱动更多，这被称为前额皮质的战术电路。

Of course, we should be fair to the neuroscience.

当然，我们应该公平对待神经科学。

The prefrontal cortex is part of the limbic system.

前额叶皮层是边缘系统的一部分。

People often think because it's in the cortex, it's higher order.

人们常常认为因为它在皮质中，所以它的层次更高。

And that's simply not true.

但这根本不是真的。

But, well, if we both agree, and it sounds like we do, that emotions drive tactical decisions that drive action and learning.

但是，好吧，如果我们都同意，而且听起来我们也同意，那么情绪会驱动战术决策，从而推动行动和学习。

Maybe we could talk about that.

也许我们可以谈谈这个。

Two major types of emotions that one could imagine.

人们可以想象的两种主要情绪。

One is I really want the toy.

一是我真的很想要这个玩具。

I really want the piece of food.

我真的很想要那块食物。

I really need something for survival or for well-being, and so I'm going to be motivated.

我真的需要一些东西来生存或幸福，所以我会有动力。

Prefrontal cortex will work out the strategies and balance out the relationship to stress, et cetera, and remind ourselves that stress can be performance enhancing.

前额叶皮层会制定策略并平衡与压力等的关系，并提醒自己压力可以提高表现。

And eventually we, we, we get the thing or the skill or the whatever.

最终我们，我们，我们得到了东西或技能或其他什么。

The other would be fear, fear of social shame, fear of staying in a place that's not good for us financially, emotionally, socially, et cetera.

另一个是恐惧，害怕社会耻辱，害怕留在一个对我们经济、情感、社交等不利的地方。

Is there any work that, identifies whether or not that the core emotion driving motivation is relevant and is there a role for growth mindset there.

是否有任何工作可以确定核心情绪驱动动机是否相关，以及成长心态是否在其中发挥作用。

That's interesting.

那很有意思。

I guess to put simply, take it down out of the ivory tower a little bit, which is what we're doing here anyway.

我想简单地说，就是把它从象牙塔中拿出来一点，这就是我们在这里所做的事情。

You can do things out of love.

你可以出于爱做事。

You can do things out of fear.

你可以出于恐惧而做事。

You can do it for both reasons too.

您也可以出于这两个原因这样做。

You can do things to please yourself.

你可以做一些让自己高兴的事情。

You can do things to please others.

你可以做一些事情来取悦别人。

You can do things to avoid others being disappointed in you, you being disappointed in yourself.

你可以做一些事情来避免别人对你失望，你对自己失望。

Presumably it's both.

想必两者皆有。

Yeah.

是的。

But is there any...

但有没有什么...

Yeah.

是的。

I'm dying for you to tell me that when we do things out of love, we learn faster, but maybe that's not the case.

我非常想让你告诉我，当我们出于爱做事时，我们学得更快，但也许情况并非如此。

Well, I don't know.

嗯，我不知道。

I mean, so two thoughts.

我的意思是，有两个想法。

One is just, you know, honoring Danny Kahneman, who just passed away.

一是，你知道，纪念刚刚去世的丹尼·卡尼曼。

His work with Amos Tversky took on a version of this question in prospect theory.

他与阿莫斯·特沃斯基的合作在前景理论中解决了这个问题的一个版本。

And it's the idea of does the fear of a loss motivate us more than the prospect of a gain, right?

这个想法是，对损失的恐惧是否比对收益的前景更能激励我们，对吗？

And their argument.

还有他们的论点。

Is that both can be motivating as well as the possibility of a loss, but that losses loom larger.

两者都可以激励人们，也有可能造成损失，但损失更大。

That people are more willing to take a risky gamble to prevent a loss than they are to get a numerically equal, like a mathematically equal gain.

人们更愿意冒险去避免损失，而不是为了获得数字上相等的收益，比如数学上相等的收益。

And so a lot of people have used that information in various ways.

因此很多人以各种方式使用这些信息。

And I think that that has led people to conclude that the prospect of a gain doesn't mean anything.

我认为这导致人们得出这样的结论：收益的前景没有任何意义。

But that really wasn't ever the point in prospect theory.

但这确实不是前景理论的重点。

It's just that it's a little more powerful to avoid, to be afraid of a loss.

只是回避的力量更大一些，害怕吃亏。

I don't see a problem with thinking like, yeah, losses are a little worse.

我认为这样的想法没有问题：是的，损失更严重一些。

You know, if I...

你知道，如果我...

Already had a thousand dollars and you took it away feels a little worse than the chance to win a thousand I didn't win mathematically it's the same delta But I think that the way that behavioral economic work gets applied is to appeal to people's kind of basis and most fearful responses to things.

已经有一千美元了，你把它拿走，感觉比赢得一千美元的机会更糟糕，从数学上讲，我没有赢，这是相同的三角洲，但我认为行为经济学工作的应用方式是吸引人们的基础和对事物最可怕的反应。

And if you think about what What drives a lot of excellence?

如果您想一想是什么推动了卓越？

In moral exemplars, too.

道德典范也是如此。

It's this chance to feel like you've made a big contribution to others.

这是一个让你感觉自己为他人做出了巨大贡献的机会。

And I don't think people are afraid that they...

我不认为人们害怕他们......

Didn't help as many people as they could have.

没有帮助尽可能多的人。

And maybe that drives some people.

也许这会驱使一些人。

But I think just the affective forecasting of one day I'll feel good because of the meaningful work I did for others that was high integrity when no one else would have seen it.

但我认为，只要对有一天的情感预测，我就会感觉良好，因为我为他人所做的有意义的工作是高度诚信的，而其他人不会看到它。

I think that's really motivating for a lot of people.

我认为这确实激励了很多人。

And I think we underappreciate that, and therefore we appeal to very narrow self-interest.

我认为我们低估了这一点，因此我们诉诸于非常狭隘的自身利益。

And my favorite theorist on this is Dale Miller at the Stanford Business School.

我最喜欢的理论家是斯坦福大学商学院的戴尔·米勒 (Dale Miller)。

And he calls it the norm of self-interest.

他称其为自利的常态。

That if you look around, it looks like everyone's behaving for only very narrow, short-term self-interested reasons.

如果你环顾四周，就会发现每个人的行为都只是出于非常狭隘、短期的自利原因。

And because you think that's the norm, then you yourself kind of respond to those incentives.

因为你认为这是常态，所以你自己会对这些激励措施做出反应。

And then you...

然后你...

Then in turn create that norm even more that other people see.

然后反过来创造更多其他人看到的规范。

But it's not a state of affairs that anybody really likes.

但这并不是任何人都真正喜欢的情况。

Everybody kind of prefers a pro-social world where people are helping others.

每个人都喜欢一个亲社会的世界，在那里人们可以帮助别人。

But if you think that's just a really weird thing to do and not normal, then people conform to the wrong norm.

但如果你认为这只是一件非常奇怪的事情而不是正常的事情，那么人们就遵循了错误的规范。

So in my work, what I try to emphasize is not that we're not afraid of losses and the narrow short-term gain that we're avoiding or the short-term loss we're avoiding.

因此，在我的工作中，我试图强调的并不是我们不害怕损失和我们正在避免的狭隘的短期收益或我们正在避免的短期损失。

But I really do think that people are capable of far more beautiful contributions to the world when we assume that that's what they want and we create opportunities for them to do that.

但我确实认为，当我们假设这就是人们想要的，并且我们为他们创造这样做的机会时，他们就有能力为世界做出更美好的贡献。

I've seen that so much.

我见过太多这样的事了。

You look at some of the best managers, right?

你看看一些最好的经理，对吧？

It's not just if you screw up, you're going to lose your bonus.

如果你搞砸了，你不仅会失去奖金。

Like that's not what the best managers in the world are doing, right?

好像这不是世界上最好的经理所做的，对吧？

They're like, let's do something no one's ever done before.

他们说，让我们做一些以前没有人做过的事情吧。

Let me support you to do it.

让我支持你去做吧。

And then let me make sure that you look awesome in front of all the senior vice presidents because you did that.

然后让我确保你在所有高级副总裁面前看起来很棒，因为你做到了。

Like that's what the best managers do and coaches too.

这就是最好的经理和教练所做的事情。

This, from my book I interviewed the NBA's best shooting coach.

这是我在书中采访了NBA最好的投篮教练。

And this basketball player named Shane Battier, who played college and pro basketball, told me about him.

这位名叫肖恩·巴蒂尔（Shane Battier）的篮球运动员，曾在大学打过职业篮球，他向我介绍了他。

And I interviewed Chip England is his name.

我采访过的奇普·英格兰就是他的名字。

And he was at the San Antonio Spurs, which they had a 17-year run of being a perennial contender for the NBA championships.

他效力于圣安东尼奥马刺队，该队连续 17 年一直是 NBA 总冠军的有力竞争者。

And constantly drafted players who...

并不断选拔球员......

Were talented but had a bad jump shot.

很有天赋，但跳投很差。

So Kawhi Leonard is an example, where he fell late in the first round because people thought he couldn't shoot.

科怀·伦纳德就是一个例子，他在第一轮比赛中落后，因为人们认为他不会投篮。

Tony Parker is another example.

托尼·帕克是另一个例子。

When Tony Parker used to shoot, Greg Popovich would say, that's a turnover every time.

当托尼·帕克过去投篮时，格雷格·波波维奇会说，每次都是失误。

Chip England is a great shooting coach, worked with them.

奇普·英格兰是一位出色的投篮教练，曾与他们一起工作过。

There's lots of, Bill Barnwell had a great story about him, called him the shot doctor.

比尔·巴恩韦尔（Bill Barnwell）有很多关于他的精彩故事，称他为枪击医生。

And I interviewed Chip.

我采访了奇普。

And I was like, Chip, how do you sell the vision to these players who are 18 to 21, are newfound millionaires, everyone's saying you're the best, you're a first-rounder, and they don't want to change their shot because if they do...

我当时想，奇普，你如何向这些 18 到 21 岁的球员推销你的愿景，他们是新发现的百万富翁，每个人都说你是最好的，你是首轮选手，他们不想改变他们的投篮，因为如果他们这样做......

They could mess it up, make it worse.

他们可能会把事情搞砸，让事情变得更糟。

Like a golfer is superstitious about their shot.

就像高尔夫球手迷信自己的击球一样。

And he's like, you know, the number one thing I have to do is build trust because I can't critique a player's shot and make them change it if they think they're going to sacrifice more.

他说，你知道，我要做的第一件事就是建立信任，因为如果球员认为自己要牺牲更多，我不能批评球员的投篮并让他们改变。

So he's like, Dave, the first thing you have to do is sell your vision.

所以他说，戴夫，你要做的第一件事就是推销你的愿景。

I was like, well, what's your vision?

我当时想，好吧，你的愿景是什么？

He's like.

他就像。

He doesn't say, if you don't change your shot, you are going to lose millions of dollars and be out of the league.

他并没有说，如果你不改变你的投篮方式，你就会损失数百万美元并被淘汰出联盟。

So he doesn't motivate with a fear of loss.

所以他不会因为害怕失去而去激励。

He says, the average time in the league is two and a half years, right?

他说，平均在联盟的时间是两年半吧？

If you develop a great, reliable jump shot where even as your athletic talents decline, you're still reliable, you're talking about a 10-year career.

如果你发展出出色、可靠的跳投，即使你的运动天赋下降，你仍然可靠，那么你正在谈论的是 10 年的职业生涯。

And then you're not just helping you, you're not just helping your family, you're helping your family's family.

然后你不只是在帮助你自己，你不只是在帮助你的家人，你也在帮助你家人的家人。

So even in the money-obsessed world of professional sports, the single best coach working with the top players appeals to the prospect of what you could do for others, not the fear of loss.

因此，即使在金钱至上的职业体育界，与顶级球员合作的最佳教练也会吸引你为他人做些什么，而不是害怕失败。

And to me, that's really telling.

对我来说，这确实很能说明问题。

Like if it works to just motivate with the fear of loss, then that's what he would do because they would do whatever's effective.

就像如果它能有效地激励人们害怕失去一样，那么他就会这么做，因为他们会做任何有效的事情。

It's like at some level an efficient market.

在某种程度上，这就像一个有效的市场。

But that's not what Chip England does.

但这不是奇普·英格兰所做的。

And I think the same is true for a lot of other great mentors and leaders.

我认为对于许多其他伟大的导师和领导者来说也是如此。

So if I understand correctly, When we find ourselves.

所以如果我理解正确的话，当我们找到自己时。

Back on our heels or flat footed.

回到我们的脚后跟或平足。

We want to focus on the prospect of what we can do for others.

我们希望关注我们能为他人做些什么的前景。

Like ultimately that's going to be the best, or the world or the world.

就像最终这将是最好的，或者世界或世界。

Yeah.

是的。

I guess.

我猜。

Yeah.

是的。

Pick your, pick your scope of, yeah.

选择你的，选择你的范围，是的。

It could be for art, for intellectual history.

它可以用于艺术，也可以用于思想史。

It's, it's a classic Viktor Frankl argument of man's search for meaning, right?

这是维克托·弗兰克尔关于人类寻找意义的经典论点，对吧？

As the, as Viktor Frankl is leaving the, the concentration camps, what helps him survive?

当维克托·弗兰克尔即将离开集中营时，是什么帮助他生存？

And it's the debt that he owes to the future work that he wants to write to share with the world.

这是他对未来作品的亏欠，他想写下这些作品与世界分享。

And it's not the fear of death.

这并不是对死亡的恐惧。

It's the meaning of the work he could do for the world if he survives.

如果他活下来，这就是他能为世界做的工作的意义。

Yeah, I think I'd like to hover on this for a minute or two, because I think it's really important.

是的，我想我想在这个问题上停留一两分钟，因为我认为这非常重要。

I realize we're getting more philosophical than operational.

我意识到我们的哲学性多于操作性。

But we've made on this.

但我们已经在这方面取得了进展。

Yeah, I'd love to hear it.

是的，我很想听听。

That's one of the things I'm really enjoying about this conversation.

这是我真正喜欢这次谈话的事情之一。

The moment I think it's going to be abstract or that you've got, you got it all there in that brain.

当我认为它会变得抽象或你已经拥有的那一刻，你的大脑就已经把它全部掌握了。

Yeah, let's talk about this.

是的，我们来谈谈这个吧。

That when we feel back on our heels or we're flat footed, meaning we're not doing well.

当我们感觉脚跟不稳或者措手不及时，就意味着我们做得不好。

I don't know, maybe hard things have happened.

我不知道，也许艰难的事情发生了。

Focusing on the prospect of what we can do for others, not just trying to avoid loss or further shame or just diminishment is going to be the best thing.

专注于我们能为他人做些什么的前景，而不仅仅是试图避免损失或进一步的耻辱或只是被削弱，这将是最好的事情。

So what are the data on this?

那么这方面的数据有哪些呢？

Yeah, so we'll first just look at correlational studies in these global surveys of happiness.

是的，所以我们首先看看这些全球幸福调查中的相关研究。

And almost anyone you can think of, the best predictor of life satisfaction and well-being is going to be the meaning of your life, in particular, the feeling like you're connected to others, you've contributed to others.

几乎任何你能想到的人，生活满意度和幸福感的最佳预测因素就是你生命的意义，特别是你与他人有联系、你为他人做出贡献的感觉。

That your life mattered.

你的生命很重要。

There was something of value in your life to others or to the world.

你的生活中有一些对他人或世界有价值的东西。

Just anecdotally, the advice I always give to people going through depression or the risk of that is to focus on what you can do for others or what you have done.

有趣的是，我总是给正在经历抑郁症或有抑郁症风险的人的建议是，关注你能为他人做些什么或你已经做了什么。

That's just correlationally.

这只是相关性。

We did in some work, this started with my first advisor at Stanford, Bill Damon, who studies purpose in life.

我们做了一些工作，这始于我在斯坦福大学的第一位顾问比尔·达蒙（Bill Damon），他研究人生目的。

Is we ask the question of when you're going through something tedious, boring, frustrating, What motivates you to keep going?

我们是否会问这样的问题：当您正在经历一些乏味、无聊、令人沮丧的事情时，是什么激励您继续前进？

And there are many possible answers to that, but we compared two different ones.

对此有很多可能的答案，但我们比较了两个不同的答案。

One is...

其一是...

The potential benefit you get out of that striving.

您从这种努力中获得的潜在好处。

So for a student in school, it's like the money you would get one day.

所以对于一个在校学生来说，这就像你有一天会得到的钱。

From working hard and doing well.

来自努力工作和做得好。

An alternative, though, is what you could do with the knowledge that you gained by going through the hard learning.

不过，另一种选择是你可以利用通过艰苦学习获得的知识来做一些事情。

How could you contribute to others, make a difference, et cetera, with the knowledge and skills?

您如何利用知识和技能为他人做出贡献、发挥作用等等？

We call that our purpose condition.

我们称之为我们的目的条件。

A couple things make that.

有几件事可以做到这一点。

Different from the standard narrative, but I think ultimately intuitive.

与标准叙述不同，但我认为最终还是直观的。

One is the standard narrative is if you try hard in school or at work or whatever it is and suffer now, then one day there will be a kind of financial compensation.

一种标准的说法是，如果你在学校、工作或其他什么方面努力努力，但现在受苦了，那么有一天，你会得到一种经济补偿。

So you're suffering now in a way that will bring material reward in the future.

所以你现在所受的痛苦将会在未来带来物质上的回报。

The brain's not really designed to make that kind of calculation, right?

大脑并不是真正设计来进行这种计算的，对吧？

It's like, well, how certain is the reward in the future?

就好像，未来的回报有多大确定性？

How far into the future?

未来有多远？

And how bad is the punishment right now?

那么现在的惩罚有多严重呢？

So there's all kinds of affective trade-offs that are hard for anyone, especially hard for 13-year-olds.

因此，各种情感权衡对任何人来说都是困难的，尤其是对 13 岁的孩子来说。

So what a lot of school comes down to is an adult saying, you need to suffer through 40 minutes per day of factoring trinomials because I said so, and I said it's good for your long-term future so that one day in your 30s you can barely afford a mortgage.

所以很多学校归根结底都是一个成年人说的，你需要每天花 40 分钟来处理三项式因式分解，因为我是这么说的，而且我说这对你的长远未来有好处，这样到了你 30 多岁时，有一天你就几乎负担不起抵押贷款了。

Right?

正确的？

This is not a compelling argument for most of America's youth, my opinion.

我认为，对于大多数美国年轻人来说，这并不是一个令人信服的论点。

The purpose condition, though, is not about the exchange value of a credential some long time in the future.

然而，目的条件并不是关于凭证在未来一段时间内的交换价值。

It's more like right now.

更像是现在。

You're getting a hard and kind of admirable skill that not everyone's going to get.

你正在获得一项艰苦而令人钦佩的技能，但并不是每个人都能获得。

And you're going to then be prepared when the moment arises to do something of significance for others.

当时机成熟时，你就会做好准备，为他人做一些有意义的事情。

Now, that also is uncertain and in the future.

现在，这也是不确定的，也是未来的事。

But for things that are contributions, you kind of get to feel like a good person right now.

但对于贡献的事情，你现在会感觉自己是一个好人。

The analogy I often use is if I'm going to like make lunch for the homeless, I don't have to wait until they actually eat the food to feel like a good person.

我经常使用的类比是，如果我想为无家可归者做午餐，我不必等到他们真正吃完食物才感觉自己是一个好人。

I feel like a good person when I'm putting it in the bag or even when I'm driving to the homeless shelter.

当我把它放进包里，甚至当我开车去无家可归者收容所时，我感觉自己是一个好人。

And I think our idea was you can move up the reward by making it a social reward right now.

我认为我们的想法是你现在可以通过将其作为社交奖励来提高奖励。

Rather than a material reward years into the future.

而不是未来几年的物质奖励。

Because then the pursuit itself becomes the reward.

因为这样追求本身就变成了回报。

Right now, my and actually the more frustrating it is right now, the more I'm being a good person because it means it was a hard skill to acquire that will prepare me to make a difference later.

现在，事实上，现在越令人沮丧，我就越是一个好人，因为这意味着这是一项很难获得的技能，它将为我以后做出改变做好准备。

And so we framed super tedious math.

所以我们设计了超级乏味的数学。

This is with Angela Duckworth and Sidney DeMello and Dave Ponescu and others as Marlon Henderson as a chance to gain a skill that helps you contribute versus.

这是与安吉拉·达克沃斯（Angela Duckworth）、西德尼·德梅洛（Sidney DeMello）和戴夫·庞内斯库（Dave Ponescu）以及其他人扮演马龙·亨德森（Marlon Henderson）一起获得的机会，可以帮助你做出贡献。

A chance to learn how to get an A and make money in the future versus a control.

一个学习如何在未来获得 A 并赚钱（与对照相比）的机会。

And what we found was that the contribute to others version led to deeper learning, greater persistence, higher grades over time.

我们发现，随着时间的推移，对其他版本的贡献会带来更深入的学习、更大的毅力和更高的成绩。

And in one of our experiments, we gave them a choice of either doing super boring math or goofing off on the internet, and we were secretly tracking what websites they were going to.

在我们的一项实验中，我们让他们选择要么做超级无聊的数学，要么在互联网上闲逛，我们秘密跟踪他们要去哪些网站。

And we found that teenagers did more very boring math and watched fewer videos and played less Tetris when they were given this purpose message before the task.

我们发现，当青少年在任务之前得到这个目的信息时，他们会做更多非常无聊的数学，看更少的视频，玩更少的俄罗斯方块。

It's in our 2014 paper.

这是我们 2014 年的论文中的内容。

And what I always think about, that's the kind of paper I wanted to go to graduate school to work on.

我一直在想，这就是我想去研究生院研究的论文。

But I think about it because if you think about Dale Miller's norm of self-interest.

但我会考虑这个问题，因为如果你考虑一下戴尔·米勒的自利准则。

Nobody thinks to do the purpose argument.

没有人认为要进行目的论证。

They're like, of course teenagers are short-sighted and think about material rewards and all they want to do is either look cool or make money or whatever.

他们说，青少年当然是目光短浅的，他们会考虑物质奖励，他们想做的就是要么看起来很酷，要么赚钱等等。

But no, like in our studies, if you appealed to the chance to make a contribution right now, then they did the behaviors that adults want them to do.

但不，就像我们的研究一样，如果你现在呼吁有机会做出贡献，那么他们就会做出成年人希望他们做的行为。

They didn't goof off online and instead chose boring math.

他们没有在网上闲逛，而是选择了无聊的数学。

And adults think the only way you could ever get that is by imposing our will and with this kind of authoritarian set of rules, but if you instead just appeal to the love of learning for the sake of others.

成年人认为，实现这一目标的唯一方法就是强加我们的意志和这种独裁的规则，但如果你只是为了他人而诉诸对学习的热爱。

Then they're willing to kind of go through the suffering.

然后他们就愿意经历痛苦。

And in the paper, we cite Viktor Frankl where the person who knows the why for their existence is able to bear any how.

在论文中，我们引用了维克多·弗兰克尔的话，知道自己存在的原因的人能够忍受任何事情。

And I think about that a lot, that we underestimate how willing young people are, really anyone is, to bear through things that are hard and difficult if they have a strong why.

我经常思考这一点，我们低估了年轻人（实际上是任何人）在有充分理由的情况下承受艰难困苦的意愿。

I think this is one of the most important concepts, frankly, ever discussed on this podcast, if I'm really honest.

坦率地说，如果我真的很诚实的话，我认为这是这个播客中讨论过的最重要的概念之一。

I think that...

我认为...

You know, we've parsed dopamine circuits and we've talked about motivation and reward.

你知道，我们已经解析了多巴胺回路，我们也讨论了动机和奖励。

We've talked a little bit about growth mindset in a solo episode, but never before have I really understood the why component, the meaning component.

我们在一个单独的节目中讨论了一些成长心态，但我以前从未真正理解过其中的原因和意义。

And I love how it marries so much of what we hear in kind of like, you know, pop culture, psychology with real data.

我喜欢它如何将我们所听到的流行文化、心理学与真实数据结合起来。

Like we're finally, thanks to you being here, meaning we're finally in the guts of it.

就像我们终于一样，感谢你在这里，这意味着我们终于进入了它的内心。

Because we hear this like, oh, it feels so good to make a contribution.

因为我们听到这样的话，哦，做出贡献的感觉真好。

But, you know, people are also self-interested.

但是，你知道，人也是有私利的。

Yeah.

是的。

People want money.

人们想要钱。

Then people say, well, past a certain amount of money, you don't get any happier.

然后人们会说，好吧，超过一定数量的钱，你就不会变得更快乐了。

And I would argue that it's true money can't buy happiness, but it can definitely buffer stress.

我认为金钱确实买不到幸福，但它绝对可以缓解压力。

Yeah.

是的。

Not all forms of stress.

并非所有形式的压力。

And money itself can get people into more stress.

金钱本身会让人们承受更大的压力。

But anyone that says, you know, past blank number of dollars, there's no incremental increase in happiness.

但任何人都说，你知道，过去了空白的美元，幸福感就不会增加。

I just don't see how that could be given inflation.

我只是不明白在通货膨胀的情况下怎么会出现这种情况。

It treats humans like linear functions.

它将人类视为线性函数。

I think that's a simplification.

我认为这是一种简化。

Right.

正确的。

If higher purpose is best defined as making a meaningful contribution to the world, to a community, or maybe at the scale of the world, maybe at the scale of a family or what have you, a classroom.

如果更高的目标最好被定义为对世界、对社区，或者可能在世界范围内，也许在一个家庭或一个教室的范围内做出有意义的贡献。

And the thing that you said before that seems so important is that the moment that you attach...

你之前所说的似乎很重要的是，当你附着的那一刻......

Your goal to something that's for others.

你的目标是为他人做事。

It makes the effort involved.

它使人付出努力。

Its own form of reward.

它自己的奖励形式。

Yeah.

是的。

That to me is so important.

这对我来说非常重要。

Yeah.

是的。

So, so important.

所以，非常重要。

I kind of want to highlight bold underline and, you know, put a big exclamation Mark after it because that's so different than like, Oh, you know, I want to be the top player on the team.

我有点想突出粗体下划线，然后在其后面加上一个大感叹号，因为这与“哦，你知道，我想成为球队中的顶尖球员”完全不同。

Yeah.

是的。

Which means that every bit of effort you put in, you're like thinking, I'm going to, I'm going to be the best.

这意味着你付出的每一点努力，你都会想，我会，我会成为最好的。

But, And one perhaps can then feel that progress when one is making it and feel like they're ascending that staircase.

但是，当一个人取得进步并感觉自己正在登上楼梯时，也许可以感受到这种进步。

But something additional must come about when we're...

但当我们……时，必须发生一些额外的事情。

Invoking this feeling of contribution.

唤起这种贡献感。

And I think this is central to our evolution as a species because we didn't develop in isolation.

我认为这是我们作为一个物种进化的核心，因为我们并不是孤立发展的。

Yeah, I mean, we had to show our value to the group or else they would get rid of us, right?

是的，我的意思是，我们必须向团队展示我们的价值，否则他们就会摆脱我们，对吗？

I mean, that's what it meant to go from being a child to being an adult.

我的意思是，这就是从一个孩子变成一个成年人的意义。

And think about what it let's take basketball or whatever, right?

想想我们可以用篮球或其他什么来代替，对吗？

If I'm trying super, super hard and it feels impossible to me and I'm not getting better and it's purely for me, then I feel like a failure.

如果我非常非常努力地尝试，而这对我来说是不可能的，而且我没有变得更好，而这纯粹是为了我，那么我会觉得自己是一个失败。

It feels like my goals are not being met and they never will be met, right?

感觉我的目标没有实现，而且永远不会实现，对吧？

The effort feels terrible because it means something really bad about me, right?

这种努力感觉很糟糕，因为这意味着我真的很糟糕，对吧？

Now imagine you're putting an effort for others.

现在想象一下你正在为别人付出努力。

The harder it is, the more awesome it is because it's more noble, right?

越难，就越厉害，因为它越高贵，不是吗？

You've done something that's super impressive and sacrificed your own happiness for others.

你做了一些令人印象深刻的事情，并为他人牺牲了自己的幸福。

You Right?

你说得对吗？

The social status of...

社会地位...

Trying hard and failing for yourself is net negative.

努力尝试但失败对自己来说是负面的。

Because it's about shame, humiliation, I'm not good enough, the status of trying hard and failing and keeping going for others is like super net positive, right?

因为这是关于羞耻、羞辱、我不够好、努力尝试、失败并继续为他人努力的状态就像超级净积极的，对吧？

And I think that's what people fail to appreciate is, especially someone young or even just early in a career, right, starting out, if you can reframe difficulty and failure as part of the process of doing something with high integrity for others, like it...

我认为这就是人们无法欣赏的一点，尤其是对于年轻的人，甚至是刚刚进入职业生涯的人来说，如果你能够将困难和失败重新定义为为他人做事的过程的一部分，就像这样……

Changes the meaning of effort totally.

完全改变了努力的含义。

And once you have a different meaning, then something that previously felt bad can instead be motivating, whether it's the stress, like in our stress-enhancing work, or the boredom you're undergoing that's doing something super tedious.

一旦你有了不同的意义，那么以前感觉不好的事情就会变得有动力，无论是压力，比如我们的工作压力，还是你正在经历的无聊，正在做一些超级乏味的事情。

Or anything like that.

或者类似的东西。

I remember when I was at Stanford as a graduate student, I worked in the lab of John Krosnick, who is famously detail-oriented.

我记得当我在斯坦福大学读研究生时，我在约翰·克罗斯尼克的实验室工作，他以注重细节而闻名。

Whenever we want to go really deep into something and go beyond what any other scientist would do, our joke name for that is giving it the full Krosnick.

每当我们想要真正深入研究某件事并超越任何其他科学家所做的事情时，我们的笑话名称就是给它完整的克罗斯尼克。

He's in communications and political science.

他从事传播学和政治学研究。

There was one project I was supervising where, this will sound ridiculous, but it was what is the best adjective to use in a survey item?

我正在监督一个项目，这听起来很荒谬，但在调查项目中使用的最佳形容词是什么？

So say you want to go, like, how hungry are you?

所以说你想去，比如，你有多饿？

Not at all, very, extremely.

一点也不，非常，非常。

Like, what adjective should you pick to label those in a survey item?

例如，您应该选择什么形容词来标记调查项目中的内容？

And so the task was to find every time that human beings have rated adjectives on a 0 to 100 scale in the history of science, and then average across all those, to choose optimally spaced adjectives, like...

因此，任务是找出科学史上每次人类对形容词进行 0 到 100 评分的情况，然后对所有这些进行平均，以选择最佳间隔的形容词，例如……

Not at all, a lot, a little.

一点也不，很多，一点点。

So we had a lab full of undergraduates.

所以我们的实验室里全是本科生。

At Stanford, who are used to creating startups and running nonprofits, and this is very tedious work for them.

在斯坦福，他们习惯于创建初创公司和运营非营利组织，这对他们来说是非常乏味的工作。

So how do you get them to super pay attention to all the details and not get it wrong, where we really kind of trust their work?

那么，如何让他们超级关注所有细节而不出错，我们真正信任他们的工作呢？

It's not by saying, you know, you're going to get into law school if you do this because it's not really true.

这并不是说，你知道，如果你这样做，你就会进入法学院，因为这不是真的。

And they'd be like, there's a lot of other ways for me to get into law school that don't involve going to journals from the 1920s to rate adjectives, right?

他们会说，我还有很多其他方法可以进入法学院，而无需去查看 20 年代的期刊来评价形容词，对吗？

Instead, what I started doing was give them what I call the save the world speech, which is like, look, we're going to.

相反，我开始做的是向他们发表我所说的“拯救世界”演讲，就像是，看，我们要做。

Write this paper.

写这篇论文。

And it's going to be the kind of paper that...

这将是一种...

No one would have done, because it's so tedious.

没有人会这么做，因为这太乏味了。

But if it's trustworthy, thousands of people would know how to have more accurate measurement.

但如果它值得信赖，成千上万的人就会知道如何进行更准确的测量。

And they're going to be so grateful for that.

他们将会对此非常感激。

But not only that, there will be skeptics, and the skeptics are going to look in our supplement, they're going to find mistakes, and then they're going to email the editor, and they're going to say, why did you let this sloppy work into the journal?

但不仅如此，还会有怀疑者，怀疑者会查看我们的增刊，他们会发现错误，然后他们会给编辑发电子邮件，他们会说，你为什么让这种草率的工作进入期刊？

And that happens all the time.

这种情况经常发生。

I mean, I don't know how much you follow what's happening in behavioral scientists these days, but if you have an influential finding, That's the norm is people should scrutinize it.

我的意思是，我不知道你对行为科学家最近发生的事情有多少关注，但如果你有一个有影响力的发现，那就是人们应该仔细审查它的常态。

They should kick the tires and they're going to find it and they're going to out you.

他们应该踢轮胎，他们会找到它，然后他们会打败你。

And they're doing more of that now, like with PubPeer, which I think is great.

他们现在正在做更多这样的事情，比如 PubPeer，我认为这很棒。

PubPeer is awesome.

PubPeer 很棒。

PubPeer, folks, is where papers are evaluated online.

各位，PubPeer 是在线评估论文的地方。

People find sometimes outright errors.

人们有时会发现彻底的错误。

And sure, there are those like sleuthing for like Yeah.

当然，还有一些像“是啊”这样的侦探活动。

You find fraud.

你发现欺诈。

For fraud.

为了诈骗。

But most of what's put there is stuff like differences in interpretation or somebody will suggest that you know, the authors could have done a better analysis or that maybe their conclusions were a little too far reaching based on a particular set of methods.

但大部分内容都存在解释上的差异之类的东西，或者有人会建议你知道，作者本可以做更好的分析，或者他们的结论基于一组特定的方法可能有点太深远了。

And I think it's good for science.

我认为这对科学有好处。

I mean, there's a lot of bad intentioned sleuthing that is trying to find circumstantial evidence to make someone look bad.

我的意思是，有很多恶意的调查试图找到间接证据来让某人看起来很糟糕。

Is that true?

这是真的吗？

But yeah.

但是是的。

Really?

真的吗？

Yeah.

是的。

That's a shame because the whole purpose of it is to better the work, not to...

这是一种耻辱，因为它的全部目的是为了更好地工作，而不是......

I'm assuming the whole purpose of PUP here is to better the work.

我假设 PUP 的全部目的是为了更好地工作。

And of course...

当然...

Um...

嗯...

Point out where there are real errors in the historical literature.

指出历史文献中存在真正错误的地方。

Right.

正确的。

Well, I think that the yes.

嗯，我认为是的。

There's a new way to become famous in science, which is to like find errors, which again is really valuable if you successfully do it.

在科学界有一种成名的新方法，那就是喜欢发现错误，如果你成功地做到了，这又是非常有价值的。

But there's enough room for interpretation that someone can with circumstantial evidence only, make it look like something's really bad and then cause an alarm and it causes all kinds of problems.

但有足够的解释空间，有人可以仅凭间接证据，就让事情看起来很糟糕，然后引起警报，从而引发各种问题。

However, for me, at least in our lab, if you always assume that someone will look at your work with the worst possible intentions, and we'll ask for every file, how did it get from Qualtrics into your paper?

然而，对我来说，至少在我们的实验室，如果你总是假设有人会以最坏的意图来看待你的工作，并且我们会询问每个文件，那么它是如何从 Qualtrics 进入你的论文的？

Just assume that all the time.

一直假设就可以了。

Then that means you need to pay as much attention to the file that was downloaded and how it was processed, and every part of the pipeline has to be documented.

那么这意味着您需要尽可能关注下载的文件及其处理方式，并且必须记录管道的每个部分。

You just have to do that.

你只需要这样做。

And so working with Cross-X Lab, that's the process that we adopted.

因此，我们采用了与 Cross-X Lab 合作的流程。

And there's all kinds of people emailed, like, wait, this...

还有各种各样的人发电子邮件，比如，等等，这个......

Show me this finding.

让我看看这个发现。

Like, okay, here's the link to the server.

就像，好吧，这是服务器的链接。

Here's the syntax.

这是语法。

You can go find it, et cetera, et cetera.

你可以去找它，等等，等等。

So good scientists should do that.

所以优秀的科学家应该这样做。

And so the possibility of scrutiny and catching fraud should motivate everyone to treat it as though it's an inevitability and therefore...

因此，审查和发现欺诈行为的可能性应该激励每个人将其视为不可避免的事情，因此......

You know, be careful in your process.

你知道，在你的过程中要小心。

Convincing 19-year-old Stanford undergraduates that that is likely to happen, you know, and that therefore you need to pay super close attention to the details, that was my task as a lab manager.

让 19 岁的斯坦福大学本科生相信这种情况很可能发生，因此需要密切关注细节，这就是我作为实验室经理的任务。

And so there it was a mix of the fear of...

所以这是一种混合的恐惧......

Shame and humiliation, but also ideally the contribution that our work will make.

耻辱和羞辱，但理想情况下也是我们的工作将做出的贡献。

And we had the hardest working RAs we've ever had that summer.

那年夏天，我们的 RA 是我们有史以来工作最努力的。

And that's not an empirical claim.

这不是一个经验断言。

That's, you know, I say that not, I didn't randomize the undergrads to that, but that experience kind of gave me the idea for the purpose studies was, you know, assume people want to do good work, but all else equal, they might find an easier way to do it.

那就是，你知道，我说不是，我没有将本科生随机分配到这一点，但那种经历给了我一个想法，目的研究是，你知道，假设人们想要做好工作，但在其他条件相同的情况下，他们可能会找到一种更简单的方法来做到这一点。

And then motivate with.

然后用激励。

An appeal to how this work could make a difference, how other people could be influenced by it.

呼吁这项工作如何产生影响，如何影响其他人。

And also, if you don't take it seriously, it'd be a really big deal, it'd be really bad.

而且，如果你不认真对待它，那就是一件大事，那将是非常糟糕的。

And I think about that a lot because we don't often appeal to the contribution value of the work.

我经常思考这个问题，因为我们并不经常关注工作的贡献价值。

We appeal to getting a good grade and impressing people.

我们呼吁取得好成绩并给人们留下深刻印象。

And that's less important for me than did I get a skill and did I do high-quality, high-integrity work.

对我来说，这并不重要，重要的是我是否获得了一项技能以及我是否做了高质量、高诚信的工作。

So what you're basically saying is that if we attach our motivation to the give, to the contribution that we're going to make, it actually makes the process much easier.

所以你的意思基本上是说，如果我们把动力放在我们将要做出的奉献和贡献上，它实际上会让这个过程变得更容易。

Or at least more rewarding along the way.

或者至少一路上收获更多。

As well as...

还有...

By definition, contributing more positively to society.

根据定义，为社会做出更积极的贡献。

It's causing me to reflect on what we normally perceive as like high achieving individuals.

这让我反思我们通常认为的高成就人士。

So often, it seems like we hear the stories of like the Steve Jobses.

我们经常听到像史蒂夫·乔布斯这样的人的故事。

And I really enjoyed that book by Walter Isaacson and that story of very...

我真的很喜欢沃尔特·艾萨克森的那本书和那个非常......

You know, impressed by his contributions, although he's a complicated person, as is often the case with people that make big contributions, it seems.

你知道，尽管他是一个复杂的人，但他的贡献给他留下了深刻的印象，做出重大贡献的人往往都是这样。

Or people in the political sphere or people in the academic sphere or the sports sphere.

或者是政治领域的人、学术领域的人、体育领域的人。

Most often we think of them as striving for themselves, maybe for themselves and their family.

大多数时候，我们认为他们是在为自己奋斗，也许是为自己和家人奋斗。

And then there are these people that really stand out as these shining examples of like Martin Luther King and others where we just are kind of in awe of how mission-driven they were for the greater good.

还有一些人确实脱颖而出，成为马丁·路德·金等人的光辉榜样，我们对他们为了更大的利益而充满使命感感到敬畏。

What sort of work is being done to encourage that kind of mindset, the contribution mindset, growth mindset through contribution mindset, just coin that contribution mindset.

正在做什么样的工作来鼓励这种心态，贡献心态，通过贡献心态的成长心态，只是创造这种贡献心态。

That's more words in there.

里面还有这么多话。

Right, exactly.

对，完全正确。

That's all it needs, more mindsets.

这就是它所需要的，更多的心态。

But the contribution mindset, because I think at least in this country, we are often raised to revere people that make big contributions, but then we get really absorbed into that person's story.

但贡献心态，因为我认为至少在这个国家，我们经常被教育去尊敬做出重大贡献的人，但随后我们就会真正融入到那个人的故事中。

It's like the story of the person and what made them tick and then there's a lot of ego in it or they have a kind of obsessive nature to them.

这就像一个人的故事以及是什么让他们打勾，然后里面有很多自我，或者他们有一种强迫性的本性。

And we don't know what goes on in other people's minds.

我们不知道其他人的心里在想什么。

We're so I must say there's a certain arrogance in our in all of our perceptions of others like that we know what they're why they're doing what they're doing.

我必须说，我们对他人的所有看法都存在一定的傲慢，比如我们知道他们为什么要做他们正在做的事情。

Half the time we don't even know why we're doing what we're doing.

有一半的时间我们甚至不知道为什么要做我们正在做的事情。

But I think you get the idea here.

但我想你已经明白了。

What I'm imagining is a more benevolent world where people also enjoy striving more and the The driving process itself, while hard, has meaning and people are not egoless, but where there's a bit more balance.

我想象的是一个更加仁慈的世界，人们也更喜欢努力奋斗，驾驶过程本身虽然艰难，但却有意义，人们并不是无私的，而是更加平衡。

Are we getting a little bit like we, you know, kind of looking at this through rose colored glasses?

我们是不是有点像带着有色眼镜看待这个问题？

Or I think it's possible.

或者我认为这是可能的。

I like to think it's possible.

我喜欢认为这是可能的。

Yeah.

是的。

I mean, I think that the version that in which people are purely.

我的意思是，我认为人们是纯粹的版本。

Pro-social and self-transcendent and have no self-interest, you know, is not super realistic.

亲社会、自我超越、没有私利，你知道，不是超现实的。

And it's not actually what our data are finding.

这实际上并不是我们的数据所发现的。

So what we find is that adding this pro-social contribution argument has a big effect.

所以我们发现，添加这种亲社会贡献论点会产生很大的效果。

But if you do it absent any plausible benefit the person would get, it tends to not be motivating.

但如果你在没有给人们带来任何看似合理的好处的情况下这样做，它往往不会有激励作用。

So it's the combination of, let's just take the school case.

所以这是一个组合，让我们以学校为例。

I'm going to learn something, gain a new skill.

我要学习一些东西，获得一项新技能。

I'm going to get a job that I enjoy and that gives me freedom and make a contribution to others.

我将找到一份我喜欢的工作，它给我自由并为他人做出贡献。

We found it was the addition of the pro-social part to the self-interested part.

我们发现这是在利己的部分之外加上了亲社会的部分。

Now, if it was do X, Y, Z and make lots of money far in the future and then give that money away, that didn't work because that's still the same logic of sacrifice now for later financial reward, which then has an exchange value of some ambiguous amount in the future.

现在，如果是做X、Y、Z，在遥远的未来赚很多钱，然后把这些钱捐出去，那是行不通的，因为这仍然是现在为以后的经济回报而牺牲的相同逻辑，而这些回报在未来具有某种模糊金额的交换价值。

That one didn't motivate kids or students to want to-Don't tell the philanthropists that.

那并没有激励孩子或学生想要这样做——不要告诉慈善家这一点。

Universities depend heavily on philanthropy, especially nowadays.

大学严重依赖慈善事业，尤其是在当今。

And we're grateful to them that they support so much good work.

我们感谢他们支持这么多优秀的工作。

So you're saying that it makes sense that there needs to be some component of self-interest, right?

所以你是说需要有一些自身利益的成分是有道理的，对吗？

Like jobs, loved design.

喜欢工作，热爱设计。

Right.

正确的。

Presumably folks like Elon and others love the mechanics of what they do, building rockets, building electric cars and things like that.

想必像埃隆和其他人这样的人喜欢他们所做的事情的机制，制造火箭、制造电动汽车等等。

But then there's this pro-social thing, the idea that the world could be better and different with these things in them.

但还有一种亲社会的想法，即世界可以因为这些东西而变得更好、变得不同。

Yeah, if you did the work right.

是的，如果你做得对的话。

I mean, a good example is my friend Daniel Kredic, who ran Empathy Lab at Google for a while and before that worked at Apple and other places.

我的意思是，我的朋友丹尼尔·克雷迪克（Daniel Kredic）就是一个很好的例子，他曾在谷歌运营过一段时间的同理心实验室，此前曾在苹果和其他地方工作过。

You could think that designing products at a large tech company is purely about is that product going to sell a lot, make a lot of money, etc.

你可能会认为在一家大型科技公司设计产品纯粹是为了让产品卖得很多、赚很多钱等等。

And that's obviously part of the value for the shareholders and so on.

这显然是股东价值的一部分等等。

But her philosophy was always, okay, what's going to happen with the user?

但她的理念始终是，好吧，用户会发生什么？

What does the user need?

用户需要什么？

Is their life going to be better with this product?

这个产品会让他们的生活变得更好吗？

And that often led to design choices that made the product even better and more profitable.

这通常会导致设计选择使产品变得更好、利润更高。

And I think there are a lot of examples of that where, you know, when the team is trying to create something that is high quality but with integrity and ethics that are going to benefit people, people are willing to put in extra hours.

我认为有很多这样的例子，你知道，当团队试图创造出高质量但具有诚信和道德的东西来造福人们时，人们愿意投入额外的时间。

They're willing to.

他们愿意。

Solve a puzzle, do better work.

解决难题，做得更好。

I think there are a lot of examples of that.

我认为这样的例子有很多。

That's on the product design side.

这是在产品设计方面。

I also want to talk about the management side.

我还想谈谈管理方面。

One of the people I followed from my book is a manager at a company.

我在书中关注的人之一是一家公司的经理。

She was at Microsoft.

她在微软。

Now she's at a place called ServiceNow.

现在她在一个叫ServiceNow 的地方。

And I just studied how she mentored young employees.

我刚刚研究了她如何指导年轻员工。

Her name is Steph Akimoto.

她的名字叫斯蒂芬·秋元。

And, um...

而且，嗯...

She has this great story about a really awesome 25-ish employee, 25-year-old-ish employee showed up.

她有一个关于一位非常出色的 25 岁左右员工的精彩故事，一位 25 岁左右的员工出现了。

And had come from teaching Teach For America, and now is in HR at Microsoft.

曾教过“为美国而教”课程，现在在微软从事人力资源工作。

And Steph could immediately tell.

斯蒂芬立刻就知道了。

Her name is Solonie.

她的名字叫索洛妮。

She's going to be bored by her regular job.

她会对她的日常工作感到无聊。

She's going to be able to do more than what she had to do.

她将能够做比她必须做的更多的事情。

But as a manager, you can't say as the first thing, you need to do twice your job for the same amount of pay.

但作为一名经理，你不能首先说，你需要做两倍的工作才能获得相同的薪水。

That's not a good management philosophy.

这不是一个好的管理理念。

So instead, it was a conversation.

所以，这只是一场对话。

All right, what's a contribution you want to make to the company where in making that above and beyond, you're going to learn a new skill that's going to help you move up the ladder?

好吧，您想为公司做出什么贡献？在做出上述贡献的同时，您将学习一项新技能来帮助您晋升？

So that in your next performance review, you're going to look like a superstar, like a total over-performer.

这样，在你的下一次绩效评估中，你就会看起来像一个超级明星，一个表现出色的人。

And so at the time, they were running global manager development.

因此，当时他们正在开展全球经理人发展工作。

And so what they decided was, don't just deliver the programs well, which Steph thought she could do well.

所以他们决定，不要只是把项目交付好，斯蒂芬认为她可以做得很好。

But also create a dashboard to track everyone's progress.

而且还要创建一个仪表板来跟踪每个人的进度。

So every new hire, they would know where they are in the management process, and it was global during the pandemic, so kind of a complicated time.

因此，每个新员工都会知道自己在管理流程中的位置，而且在大流行期间这是全球性的，这是一个复杂的时期。

Anyway, she did her regular job really well and created this whole dashboard, which brought value to the company, big contribution.

不管怎样，她的日常工作做得非常好，并创建了整个仪表板，这为公司带来了价值，做出了巨大的贡献。

But then when it came time for performance evaluations, she could say, like, you're already performing at a level two levels up.

但当需要进行绩效评估时，她可能会说，比如，你的表现已经提高了两个级别。

That gave her promotional velocity.

这给了她晋升的速度。

She moved up.

她向上移动了。

She left the company for a while.

她离开公司一段时间了。

Now is the chief of staff, HR at Microsoft, kind of in line to lead Microsoft.

现在是微软的人力资源部幕僚长，有点像领导微软的人选。

And then what about Steph?

那么斯蒂芬呢？

Well, Steph's team overperformed, which was incentivized.

嗯，斯蒂芬的团队表现出色，这受到了激励。

But then she gets to go home saying, I use my time as a manager to change someone's life.

但随后她回家后说，我利用担任经理的时间来改变某人的生活。

And that brings her so much joy.

这给她带来了很多快乐。

And it's just so much fun as a teacher.

作为一名老师真是太有趣了。

To have some of our time with young people lead them on a path they wouldn't have been on otherwise.

我们花一些时间与年轻人相处，引导他们走上一条他们本来不会走的道路。

It is a total blast to mentor someone and change their lives.

指导某人并改变他们的生活真是太棒了。

So I think that's a good example of, it's in everyone's long-term self-interest to contribute to both the company and the people around you.

所以我认为这是一个很好的例子，为公司和周围的人做出贡献符合每个人的长期自身利益。

But no one's being a martyr.

但没有人成为烈士。

They're not really, like, also everyone's compensated.

他们并不是真的每个人都得到了补偿。

So you need to think about, of course, is the company going to pay you if you help others improve?

所以你当然需要考虑一下，如果你帮助别人进步，公司会付钱给你吗？

And there's important questions to be asked there.

那里有一些重要的问题需要问。

But I think that's a good example where we have a false dichotomy of it's either good for me or I'm a martyr helping others.

但我认为这是一个很好的例子，我们有一个错误的二分法：要么对我有利，要么我是帮助他人的烈士。

But, like, the best work is both.

但是，最好的工作就是两者兼而有之。

And then it feels awesome because you both change people's lives and you're compensated for it.

然后感觉棒极了，因为你们既改变了人们的生活，又得到了补偿。

And that's great.

那太好了。

It certainly has been my experience that doing things that I love, like learning and organizing and distributing information with the specific intention of people benefiting from it, should they choose to use it or apply it or think about it, is the best of both worlds.

根据我的经验，做我喜欢的事情，比如学习、组织和传播信息，带着人们从中受益的特定意图，如果他们选择使用它、应用它或思考它，那就是两全其美。

Yeah.

是的。

Certainly.

当然。

Let's talk about this other phenotype, the people that and they do serve a role in the world.

让我们来谈谈另一种表型，即那些在世界上发挥作用的人。

Yeah.

是的。

Folks that whose sole purpose seems to be to critique, to identify errors.

人们的唯一目的似乎是批评、找出错误。

And I think in the case of catching like real like fundamental flaws and stuff play a key role.

我认为，在捕捉真实的情况下，基本缺陷和东西起着关键作用。

We need those, right?

我们需要那些，对吗？

And it's kind of unfair that as a scientific field we force a small group of people to have to police everybody else's work.

作为一个科学领域，我们强迫一小群人来监督其他人的工作，这有点不公平。

Ideally, they wouldn't have to do that job.

理想情况下，他们不必做这项工作。

And so there's a lot of value in the people who have developed very honest and high-integrity tools to find mistakes.

因此，开发出非常诚实和高度诚信的工具来发现错误的人具有很大的价值。

Yeah, I think some of the AI too.

是的，我也认为有些人工智能。

For finding errors, at least in, you know, in, in data sets.

为了发现错误，至少在数据集中。

Right.

正确的。

Like the images in a neuroscience study where you can tell that the images have been altered.

就像神经科学研究中的图像一样，你可以看出图像已被更改。

Or plots.

或者情节。

Like I remember a few years back, the Reinhart shown cases of the, he was like this wunderkind who published, I was like crazy numbers, like eight or 10 papers in science and nature per year.

就像我记得几年前，莱因哈特展示的案例一样，他就像一位发表论文的神童，我就像疯狂的数字，每年在科学和自然领域发表八到十篇论文。

And then I think it was actually similarities in the noise, the random quote, in quotes, noise plots that eventually led to.

然后我认为这实际上是噪音、随机引用、引号中的相似之处，最终导致了噪音图。

The understanding that there was data duplication or something.

了解存在数据重复或其他问题。

Anyway, I don't remember how it went.

无论如何，我不记得事情是如何进行的。

Yeah, it's important to correct the literature that way, right?

是的，以这种方式纠正文献很重要，对吧？

But then there seems to be, at least online and on Social Media, there seems to be kind of a short-term incentive.

但至少在网上和社交媒体上，似乎存在某种短期激励。

I have to imagine there's some incentive for people just being really critical.

我必须想象人们确实有一定的动机去批评。

Like I was thinking about this the other day.

就像我前几天在思考这个问题一样。

What kind of mindset would one have to just randomly go put a nasty comment on Social Media?

一个人会以什么样的心态随意在社交媒体上发表令人讨厌的评论？

Like if you just think about it, not about an issue you're particularly vexed by or somebody's stance on.

就像你只是想一想，而不是考虑你特别烦恼的问题或某人的立场。

Like that makes sense, right?

这样说是有道理的，对吧？

People get aggravated.

人们变得更加恼怒。

Yeah.

是的。

But just think about the mindset there.

但只要想想那里的心态。

Like, oh, you've got your life, you have time, and you're going to go like.

就像，哦，你有你的生活，你有时间，你会去的。

Say mean things, right?

说些刻薄的话吧？

Like, like to me, it's as inconceivable to do that online, like to go and just post that stuff.

对我来说，在网上做这些事情是不可思议的，就像去发布那些东西一样。

But, but clearly there's something, there's some incentive built, built there.

但是，但显然有一些东西，那里建立了一些激励措施。

And I don't think this is a new thing.

我认为这并不是什么新鲜事。

I'm guessing that before we had online culture within medieval societies and there were these, these elements exist within us.

我猜想，在中世纪社会出现网络文化之前，这些元素就存在于我们体内。

And that there must be some.

而且一定有一些。

Reward.

报酬。

They must feel some reward.

他们一定感到有些回报。

But it's not generative.

但它不是生成性的。

It's not building society.

这不是建设社会。

When appropriately placed, I guess we're saying it provides a corrective mechanism.

当放置得当时，我想我们是在说它提供了一种纠正机制。

But what do you think that's about?

但你认为那是关于什么的？

And is there any literature on this kind of thing?

有没有关于这类事情的文献？

Yeah, well, not the exact example of...

是的，好吧，不是确切的例子......

Being a total jerk on online.

在网上完全是个混蛋。

I mean, I, I can't imagine doing that because who has the time?

我的意思是，我，我无法想象这样做，因为谁有时间？

I mean, I coach baseball.

我的意思是，我是棒球教练。

I don't know how I'm going to like police other people unless it's relevant to my work.

我不知道我怎么会喜欢警察其他人，除非这与我的工作有关。

And I think someone's like not having integrity and what they're doing.

我认为有些人就像没有正直和他们所做的事情一样。

I'm like, you guys are being sloppy.

我想说，你们真是太草率了。

And I might say that, but what I, what I find compelling is a beautiful new book by Mary Murphy called cultures of growth, who's trained.

我可能会这么说，但我觉得引人注目的是玛丽·墨菲写的一本美丽的新书，名为《成长文化》，她接受过培训。

I trained at Stanford under Claude Steele.

我在斯坦福大学接受克劳德·斯蒂尔的指导。

I was also trained by Carol Dweck.

我还接受过卡罗尔·德韦克 (Carol Dweck) 的培训。

Just came out a week ago and is getting tons of great press.

一周前刚发布，就受到了大量媒体的关注。

And in her work, what she finds is that fixed mindset can be a cultural variable, like a more leadership variable, not just in the mind of the individual.

在她的工作中，她发现固定心态可以是一种文化变量，就像一种领导力变量，而不仅仅是个人的想法。

And when that's the culture, then she finds people are more willing to try to make everyone else look like an idiot so that you don't get attacked.

当这种文化成为现实时，她发现人们更愿意尝试让其他人看起来像个白痴，这样你就不会受到攻击。

That's the summary finding.

这就是总结的发现。

And there's a kind of deflection strategy that if I, if I trash other people for being idiots, then it'll make other people think twice before they mess with me.

有一种偏转策略，如果我因为其他人是白痴而贬低他们，那么其他人在惹恼我之前会三思而后行。

And so but it creates the very toxic culture that they're trying to escape, which is the threat of their own intelligence being attacked.

因此，这创造了他们试图逃避的非常有毒的文化，这是他们自己的情报受到攻击的威胁。

So it's totally counterproductive.

所以这完全是适得其反的。

And she uses the example of Microsoft under the Balmer era where you'd go into meetings and you'd get yelled at if you made any mistake and you weren't allowed to talk.

她以巴尔默时代的微软为例，你去参加会议，如果你犯了任何错误，你就会被吼叫，而且不被允许发言。

And they would like literally flip over a table and yell at you and people would leave the room crying.

他们真的会掀翻桌子并对你大喊大叫，然后人们就会哭着离开房间。

And this there's a lot of accounts of this as a very public information.

有很多报道称这是一个非常公开的信息。

And one of the things Satya Nadella did when he came in was to change what he said.

萨蒂亚·纳德拉上任后所做的一件事就是改变他的言论。

He said, we have a culture of know-it-alls and we need a culture of learn-it-alls.

他说，我们有一种万事通的文化，我们需要一种万事通的文化。

And has the virtue of ending in the same word, so it's pithy.

又具有同字结尾的优点，所以简洁。

But I kind of like that idea.

但我有点喜欢这个主意。

And so Mary describes how in this culture of...

玛丽描述了在这种文化中......

Genius, she calls it, you don't just get the hypercriticism.

她称之为天才，你不会只是受到过度批评。

The consequence of that is unethical behavior where you hide mistakes or lie about things because you're worried about being outed as not a genius.

这样做的后果是不道德的行为，你隐藏错误或撒谎，因为你担心自己不是天才。

So the culture of fearing mistakes gives rise to the kind of unethical hiding type of culture.

因此，害怕错误的文化就产生了一种不道德的隐藏型文化。

Now, the layperson could draw a line between that and like the Zune and Bing and other like failed products.

现在，外行人可以在 Zune 和 Bing 以及其他类似的失败产品之间划清界限。

You know, that's, I'll leave that to organizational scholars.

你知道，我会把这个问题留给组织学者。

Decide if that's the story.

决定这是否是故事。

But at least the cautionary tale is like Boeing is another example where Calhoun, when he came in as a CEO, changed the incentive scheme at Boeing to be something called stack ranking, which is where you fire the bottom 10% every six months or a year.

但至少波音公司的警示故事是另一个例子，卡尔霍恩在担任首席执行官时，将波音公司的激励计划改为所谓的“堆栈排名”，即每六个月或每年解雇最后 10% 的员工。

Whoa.

哇哦。

Within your group.

在你的小组内。

So your group might be...

所以你的小组可能...

Higher performing on average than some other group, but the bottom 10% of your group are getting fired.

平均表现比其他团队要高，但团队中排名最后 10% 的人会被解雇。

And this goes back to GE.

这可以追溯到通用电气。

It's a Jack Welch policy.

这是杰克·韦尔奇的政策。

Anyway, so that happened two years ago, and look what's happened in the last two years.

无论如何，这发生在两年前，看看过去两年发生了什么。

Now he's out.

现在他出来了。

You have all these mistakes where people aren't going and finding.

所有这些错误都是人们没有去发现的。

The problems.

问题。

Now, again, I'm not at Boeing.

现在，再说一次，我不在波音。

I can't, you know, as a scientist, I can't say that that is the cause.

我不能，你知道，作为一名科学家，我不能说这就是原因。

But the argument in Mary's book is that when you have organizations like that culture of genius, you hide mistakes and then you have unethical behavior.

但玛丽书中的论点是，当你拥有像天才文化这样的组织时，你就会隐藏错误，然后就会出现不道德的行为。

In order to conceal those, and then you don't fix them.

为了隐藏这些，然后你不修复它们。

But in what she calls a culture of growth, you're willing to examine mistakes because they're not indicative of a sign that, they're not indicative of your overall inability to do well.

但在她所说的成长文化中，你愿意检查错误，因为它们并不表明你整体上没有能力做得好。

They're part of the process of growing as a group.

他们是团队成长过程的一部分。

Super interesting.

超级有趣。

You said Mary Murphy, Cultures of Growth?

你说的是玛丽·墨菲的《成长文化》？

Yeah.

是的。

Interesting.

有趣的。

It seems everybody worked with Carol Dweck.

似乎每个人都与卡罗尔·德韦克一起工作。

You, Claude Steele, Mary Murphy.

你，克劳德·斯蒂尔，玛丽·墨菲。

I have a small friendship group.

我有一个小小的友谊小组。

That's an amazing group.

这是一个了不起的团体。

By that, I mean I have no friends except people I work with.

我的意思是，除了和我一起工作的人之外，我没有朋友。

It clearly landed in a great group nonetheless.

尽管如此，它显然还是属于一个伟大的群体。

This is very interesting.

这很有趣。

So people who are hypercritical or spend an enormous amount of time being critical just for being critical sake are masking.

因此，那些吹毛求疵的人，或者花大量时间仅仅为了批评而批评的人，都是在掩饰。

They're cloaking themselves.

他们正在隐藏自己。

It's a form of self-protection.

这是一种自我保护形式。

Yeah.

是的。

That's the claim and I think there's some pretty good suggestive evidence of that.

这就是这样的说法，我认为有一些很好的暗示性证据可以证明这一点。

It would be interesting if online like everyone had to put some of their CV in their masthead.

如果在网上每个人都必须将一些简历放在报头中，那会很有趣。

It's sort of like what have you done as you're attacking.

这有点像你在攻击时所做的事情。

Because that would differentiate the people like Elizabeth Bick, for instance, who I think that's her name, who's considered one of the best data evaluation.

因为这将使像伊丽莎白·比克这样的人区分开来，我认为这是她的名字，她被认为是最好的数据评估之一。

People, right?

人们，对吗？

She runs on her Twitter account.

她在自己的推特账户上运行。

They essentially she shows errors in papers.

他们基本上显示了她论文中的错误。

And I think the goal there is to offer people the opportunity to not necessarily retract, although in some cases retract, but to alter the papers right or wrong and addendums and things that to say so that's like the appropriate use of critique, right?

我认为目标是为人们提供不一定撤回的机会，尽管在某些情况下撤回，而是改变论文的正确或错误以及附录和要说的东西，这就像批评的适当使用，对吗？

She's not doing it to cloak anything else presumably as opposed to people that just run around.

她这样做大概不是为了掩盖其他任何东西，而不是为了那些只是到处乱跑的人。

Trying to poke holes in everything that they see.

试图在他们看到的一切上找出漏洞。

It's cynicism, really.

这确实是愤世嫉俗。

It's kind of an online cynicism.

这是一种网上的愤世嫉俗。

Well, I think it's easier to be skeptical than it is to...

嗯，我认为怀疑比怀疑更容易……

Like eventually believe in something after being convinced.

就像被说服后最终相信某件事一样。

And so I think there's a default toward, well, I don't believe that.

所以我认为存在默认情况，嗯，我不相信这一点。

And we get that sometimes with growth mindset.

有时我们会通过成长心态来实现这一点。

They're like, well, what do you mean a 50-minute intervention has a well, okay, but all the things you're complaining about are things that we addressed in the study.

他们会说，好吧，你的意思是 50 分钟的干预有一个很好的效果，好吧，但是你抱怨的所有事情都是我们在研究中解决的问题。

So At some point, you have to just say you believe in the process of science or you don't.

所以在某些时候，你必须说你相信科学的过程，或者你不相信。

And I understand if there were initial studies that didn't follow the process of science or left big holes to be addressed.

我理解是否有一些初步研究不遵循科学过程或留下了需要解决的大漏洞。

But at some point, it's like, well, we did what you asked for.

但在某些时候，就像，好吧，我们做了你要求的事情。

So I don't know what to tell you.

所以我不知道该告诉你什么。

I'm sorry.

对不起。

Yeah, I know the growth mindset field has come under a bit of not attack but critique.

是的，我知道成长型思维领域受到的不是攻击而是批评。

I know this because in researching the solo episode and this one, one always has to be careful about relying on Wikipedia too much because it's the use of editing.

我知道这一点是因为在研究单人剧集和这一集时，人们总是必须小心不要过度依赖维基百科，因为它涉及到编辑。

Editors, legacy editors, and I'll go on record saying that there's a ton of bias and even within the legacy editors, I just, by the way, I'm not just got my page vandalized even more, but I've sort of given up at this point because things are clued together out of context.

编辑们、传统编辑们和我会公开表示，存在大量偏见，甚至在传统编辑内部，我只是顺便说一句，我的页面不仅被破坏得更多，而且我在这一点上有点放弃了，因为事情是断章取义的。

And so I like that if I look at growth mindset on Wikipedia, there's a lot of supportive evidence and then you can get like a two paragraphs of like of critique.

所以我喜欢看维基百科上的成长心态，那里有很多支持性证据，然后你可以得到两段类似的批评。

Right.

正确的。

And so for the uninformed, they don't know how to weigh that.

因此，对于不知情的人来说，他们不知道如何权衡这一点。

Right.

正确的。

Which is why we basically need a new system.

这就是为什么我们基本上需要一个新系统。

And they kind of want to say on one hand, on the other hand, you know, right.

他们一方面想说，另一方面，你知道，是的。

And yeah.

是的。

And there's You know, there's no real weighting.

你知道，没有真正的权重。

We don't know the expertise of these people where they're gleaning from logs or whatnot.

我们不知道这些人从日志或其他东西中收集的专业知识。

And look, I think it's a great concept.

看，我认为这是一个很棒的概念。

I think that it's just.

我认为这只是。

I to me at least, it seems that there's an overwhelming amount of evidence that growth mindset and related mindsets that we've talked about today have immense value.

至少对我来说，似乎有大量证据表明，我们今天讨论的成长心态和相关心态具有巨大的价值。

I think it's also good to have competing opinions in any field.

我认为在任何领域存在相互竞争的观点也是件好事。

But I think it as we're kind of Parsing motivation for people that...

但我认为这是我们为人们解析动机的一种......

Really want to make a, I don't know, feel their best, do their best, make a contribution to the world.

真的很想做一个，我不知道，感受自己最好的，尽自己最大的努力，为世界做出贡献。

It seems like the default state that the, the fast food, the junk food, the slur, the slurpee, the Twizzlers and the, and the Snickers bar there.

快餐、垃圾食品、含糖饮料、思乐冰、Twizzlers 和士力架似乎是默认状态。

I just got myself in more trouble by naming name brands.

我只是因为命名名牌而给自己带来了更多麻烦。

The junk food, is, is in hiding by critiquing because i think maybe there's the man in the arena thing you know that it's easy to be a spectator it's hard it's hard to try and do something real yeah i think that going back to this question of like are you willing to reveal your mistakes or not the Mary.

垃圾食品是通过批评来隐藏的，因为我想也许竞技场上有一个人，你知道，做一个旁观者很容易，很难，很难尝试做一些真正的事情，是的，我认为回到这个问题，比如你是否愿意揭露你的错误，玛丽。

Writes a lot about great exemplars in her book jennifer dudna who's oh yeah you know developed crisper famously has a lab that's hypercritical in the lab but then the work stands you know well public and it's someone who could have every incentive to just churn out as many papers as possible and you know for profit etc but instead and i've actually interviewed one of the postdocs from that lab and it's just like an amazing scientific enterprise that i i write about this astrophysics lab at Vanderbilt you with a guy named Kayvon Stassen, who is just a legend.

詹妮弗·杜德纳（jennifer dudna）在她的书《jennifer dudna》中写了很多关于伟大范例的文章，哦，是的，你知道，众所周知，他开发了一个非常挑剔的实验室，但这项工作却是众所周知的，而且这个人有充分的动机尽可能地发表尽可能多的论文，你知道是为了盈利等，但相反，我实际上采访了该实验室的一位博士后，它就像一个令人惊叹的科学企业，我写这篇文章在范德比尔特大学的天体物理实验室，你和一个名叫凯冯·斯塔森的人在一起，他只是一个传奇人物。

As you know, a lot of people would be thrilled to have one nature paper in their lives, like he had five last year.

如你所知，很多人会很高兴能在生活中拥有一篇自然论文，就像他去年有五篇一样。

But what he does is mentor probably the most diverse group of physicists in all of America.

但他所做的是指导可能是全美国最多元化的物理学家群体。

And he developed what are called bridge programs, where students, often graduate students of color, students who had low GRE scores....

他还开发了所谓的桥梁课程，让学生（通常是有色人种研究生、GRE 分数较低的学生）参与其中。

low socioeconomic status.

社会经济地位低。

They're pre-admitted to a master's program in physics.

他们已被物理学硕士预科录取。

At a local HBCU, Sorclay Black College University, and then if they do well, then they're pre-admitted to the physics PhD program.

在当地的 HBCU（索克雷布莱克学院大学），如果他们表现出色，就会被预录取进入物理学博士学位课程。

And it's a now well-known idea, but the basic concept is, in the old days, you look at just your GRE scores and say, are you smart enough to be a physicist or not?

这是一个现在众所周知的想法，但基本概念是，在过去，你只看你的 GRE 成绩，然后说，你是否足够聪明，可以成为一名物理学家？

And what he argued was that the coin of the realm for professional physics is publishing professional physics.

他认为，专业物理学领域的硬币是出版专业物理学。

And if you come into a lab and you can analyze data and write a paper and publish it in a journal, then you're a physicist.

如果你进入实验室，可以分析数据并撰写论文并在期刊上发表，那么你就是一名物理学家。

So he has people come for two years, regardless of your GREs, but as long as you have kind of grit and resilience and a drive, as you're saying, and lets them work in labs.

所以他会让人们来两年，不管你的 GRE 成绩如何，但只要你有勇气、韧性和动力，正如你所说，他就让他们在实验室工作。

And it turns out about 85% of students end up getting admitted to the PhD program.

事实证明，大约 85% 的学生最终被博士学位项目录取。

And then they do well.

然后他们做得很好。

So the first ever black first author on a nature paper in physics is his student.

因此，物理学自然论文的第一位黑人第一作者就是他的学生。

Right?

正确的？

So like a ridiculously high proportion of racial diversity at NASA are graduates of his program, his laboratory, right?

那么，就像 NASA 的种族多样性比例高得离谱一样，都是他的项目、他的实验室的毕业生，对吗？

And his lab is at Vanderbilt.

他的实验室位于范德比尔特。

His lab is at Vanderbilt.

他的实验室位于范德比尔特。

It's, it's called the Fisk Vanderbilt Fisk graduate program.

它被称为 Fisk Vanderbilt Fisk 研究生项目。

Interesting.

有趣的。

Bridge program.

桥梁计划。

At any rate, for my book, I interviewed him and I was like, well, that's your admission.

无论如何，为了我的书，我采访了他，我说，好吧，这就是你的承认。

So what happens?

那么会发生什么呢？

There's still five years when people have to learn to be a physicist.

人们还需要学习成为一名物理学家还有五年的时间。

And every day they have a different thing they do.

他们每天都会做不同的事情。

So Monday is a journal club, Tuesday is a coffee.

所以周一是日记俱乐部，周二是喝咖啡。

But the lifeblood of the lab is Wednesdays, lab meetings, where you, as a trainee, put up your figures in your paper in Overleaf, which is like a WYSIWYG editor for scientific papers, and everyone critiques your stats, your tables, your figures, your narrative, and everyone's just looking at your work and critiquing it.

但实验室的命脉是每周三的实验室会议，你作为实习生，在 Overleaf 的论文中发表你的数据，这就像科学论文的所见即所得编辑，每个人都批评你的统计数据、你的表格、你的数据、你的叙述，每个人都只是看着你的工作并批评它。

And these are all top physicists in the lab.

而且这些都是实验室里的顶尖物理学家。

And that sounds terrifying, and it kind of is initially.

这听起来很可怕，一开始也是如此。

But then by the time they present at the conference, they've heard everything.

但当他们出席会议时，他们已经听到了一切。

And they're doing that far before they're spending three months.

他们在三个月之前就已经这样做了。

Doubting themselves, unable to complete the paper, et cetera, et cetera.

怀疑自己，无法完成论文等等。

It's like you just have to do that.

就好像你必须这样做。

You have to face that fear.

你必须面对这种恐惧。

So it's very demanding, but it's super supportive.

所以要求非常高，但也非常支持。

And they don't pull punches in terms of the critique of the content.

他们对内容的批评也毫不留情。

It's, it's, but it's never in question.

是的，是的，但这是毫无疑问的。

Whether the comments are coming from a place of believing your potential to be a great physicist.

这些评论是否来自相信你有成为一名伟大物理学家的潜力的地方。

And what I like about that is that you're not like...

我喜欢的一点是你不像...

It doesn't feel good at that time to be critiqued publicly, but it feels necessary, and you kind of know that you will measure up at the end of that process and that it's formative.

当时受到公开批评的感觉并不好，但感觉是必要的，而且你知道在这个过程结束时你会达到标准，并且这是形成性的。

I think that's fundamentally what a lot of people, I think, misunderstand about what it takes to help someone become better.

我认为这从根本上就是很多人对如何帮助一个人变得更好的误解。

They think either I have to be a monster to critique you or I just have to pull my punches.

他们认为要么我必须成为一个怪物才能批评你，要么我就必须克制自己。

But you can be like Stassen's lab and be super demanding and super supportive, and then people grow.

但你可以像斯塔森的实验室一样，超级要求和超级支持，然后人们就会成长。

Sounds like the key thing is to make sure I'm sure the one is gleaning critique from...

听起来关键是要确保我确定这个人正在收集批评......

The correct sources.

正确的来源。

And this is one of the major issues with kind of just open online critique.

这是公开的在线批评的主要问题之一。

While attractive because of the lack of barriers, it means that you have to be a selective filter, right?

虽然由于缺乏障碍而有吸引力，但这意味着你必须成为一个选择性过滤器，对吧？

I mean, you can see this in online comments.

我的意思是，你可以在网上评论中看到这一点。

Some people are very impacted by them.

有些人受他们的影响很大。

And then other people say, oh yeah, well, that's some person in a basement or that's a, you know, like, what have they done?

然后其他人说，哦，是的，好吧，那是地下室里的某个人，或者是，你知道，就像，他们做了什么？

And, you know, but some people just have a thinner skin than others.

而且，你知道，有些人的脸皮就是比其他人薄。

But when you're in a community where clearly everyone cares about the mission, the outcome, the physics, et cetera.

但是，当你身处一个显然每个人都关心任务、结果、物理等等的社区时。

Then you can put trust in the critique.

然后你就可以相信批评。

By the way, I find it really interesting that this lab at Vanderbilt is focused mainly on motivation and drive as the key thing, as opposed to some standardized score metric or something or prior experience.

顺便说一句，我发现范德堡大学的这个实验室非常有趣，它主要关注动机和驱动力作为关键，而不是一些标准化的分数指标或其他东西或以前的经验。

When I was starting my lab as a junior professor back before being at Stanford at UCSD, UC San Diego, a senior colleague of mine said, when picking students, you have to really evaluate.

当我在斯坦福大学、加州大学圣地亚哥分校之前以初级教授的身份开始我的实验室时，我的一位资深同事说，在挑选学生时，你必须真正进行评估。

You wait many things right ethics how they do the work etc but the main thing was is just drive are they driven yeah and yeah that turned out to be the case yeah i think it's it's hard i mean it's it's just a case-by-case decision you know like you you don't pick that many students over your career so you don't get to really learn but i think i had a colleague when i started who was like Just told me they just sort by GRE right away.

你会等待很多事情，道德规范，他们如何做工作等等，但最重要的是只是驱动力，他们驱动力是的，是的，事实证明是这样的，是的，我认为这很难，我的意思是，这只是一个具体情况的决定，你知道像你一样，你在你的职业生涯中不会挑选那么多学生，所以你无法真正学习，但我想我刚开始时有一个同事，他只是告诉我他们马上就按GRE排序。

Just by standardized score.

仅按标准化分数。

By standardized test score.

按标准化考试成绩。

I was like, well, I would never do that.

我当时想，好吧，我永远不会那样做。

He's like, how about this?

他说，这个怎么样？

How about you take all the low GRE students and I take all the high ones and see who's too better?

你带所有 GRE 成绩低的学生，我带所有成绩高的学生，看看谁更好？

Yeah.

是的。

I feel like standardized tests in some cases are necessary but not sufficient.

我觉得在某些情况下标准化测试是必要的，但还不够。

Yeah.

是的。

That there's this other thing that's like nuance and I mean coming up with great experimental ideas or there's just so many examples of people that just weren't good at standardized tests that just kicked out.

还有其他类似细微差别的事情，我的意思是想出很棒的实验想法，或者有很多不擅长标准化测试的人的例子就被淘汰了。

In their various fields.

在他们的各个领域。

But there is a correlation there typically.

但通常存在相关性。

I mean I think my issue in a perfect world, standardized test scores would be great for equity because there would be people who didn't get great information in high school about where to go to college or started out in the wrong major and eventually figured out, don't have great GPAs or didn't go to a great college, but they have tremendous ability and they deserve a shot.

我的意思是，我认为我的问题在一个完美的世界里，标准化考试成绩对于公平来说非常重要，因为有些人在高中时没有获得关于去哪里上大学的重要信息，或者一开始选择了错误的专业，但最终发现，没有很好的平均绩点或没有进入一所伟大的大学，但他们有巨大的能力，他们值得一试。

And so I think that argument for GREs makes a ton of sense.

所以我认为 GRE 的论点很有道理。

The problem is that you can just pay to have someone teach you how to take the GRE and your scores can go up a huge percentage.

问题是，你只需花钱请人教你如何参加 GRE 考试，你的分数就能大幅提高。

And so the GREs end up being a proxy.

所以 GRE 最终成为了一个代理。

Either for the training you got now, or it's a proxy for how good your 10th grade math teacher was, because it's mostly testing 10th grade geometry.

要么是你现在接受的培训，要么是你十年级数学老师的水平的代表，因为它主要测试十年级的几何。

And so, again, that's going to be a function of what neighborhood you grew up in and how good your high school teachers were.

所以，这又取决于你长大的社区以及你的高中老师有多优秀。

So what I don't love is, like, I would love test scores if they were about...

所以我不喜欢的是，就像，我会喜欢考试成绩，如果它们是关于......

Meritocracy and equality of opportunity.

任人唯贤和机会平等。

But they often end up being just a proxy for kind of advantages you already had.

但它们最终往往只是你已经拥有的某种优势的代表。

So, ultimately though, for K'Vaun...

所以，最终，对于 K'Vaun 来说……

The setting aside the GRE in physics was like a hypothesis.

放弃 GRE 物理科目就像是一个假设。

Ultimately, the proof that needed to be in the pudding was...

最终，布丁中需要的证据是……

Did the students admitted under an alternative means end up producing great physics?

通过其他方式录取的学生最终是否创造了伟大的物理学成果？

And in that case, the answer is absolutely yes.

在这种情况下，答案是绝对肯定的。

And so for me, it's like, yes, consider it or not for admissions, but what are you doing with the students when they arrive?

所以对我来说，是的，考虑或不考虑招生，但是当学生到达时你会做什么？

How are you mentoring and how are you training?

你是如何指导和训练的？

And how are you breaking the link between whatever advantages they might have had in the past and the work that they can do in the future if they're driven?

您如何打破他们过去可能拥有的优势与他们在激励下未来可以做的工作之间的联系？

We've been talking a lot about data and other people.

我们已经谈论了很多关于数据和其他人的事情。

I'd be remiss if I didn't ask you a little bit about you.

如果我不问一些关于你的事，那就是我的失职了。

No pressure to share anything you don't want to share.

没有压力去分享任何你不想分享的东西。

But of all the things you could study, of all the contributions you could make, you decided to focus on this notion of mindsets.

但是，在您可以研究的所有事物中，在您可以做出的所有贡献中，您决定将重点放在心态这一概念上。

Essentially trying to figure out how people can be their best for the, for the greatest good of the world.

本质上是试图弄清楚人们如何才能为了世界的最大利益而做到最好。

This would be the way I would describe it.

这就是我描述它的方式。

Is that just inherent in your, in your wiring or was there something about your experience coming up that makes you value that in particular?

这是否是你固有的，你的思维方式，或者你的经历中是否有一些东西让你特别重视这一点？

Or did you happen to just resonate with, with Carol and folks and feel like, Hey, this would be a great place to place my efforts?

或者你是否碰巧与卡罗尔和其他人产生了共鸣，并觉得，嘿，这将是我努力的好地方？

Yeah.

是的。

Well, that's an impossible question to, answer because there's no, I have no counterfactual.

嗯，这是一个不可能回答的问题，因为没有，我没有反事实。

So a real causal inference person wouldn't allow me.

所以一个真正的因果推理人不会允许我这样做。

So this is a digression, but so my only real precocious skill is that I can do the splits, which sounds like a weird thing to do, but I can, it's my party trick at weddings.

这是题外话，但我唯一真正早熟的技能是我可以劈叉，这听起来像是一件奇怪的事情，但我可以，这是我在婚礼上的派对技巧。

You always could?

你总是可以吗？

Yeah.

是的。

Did you do gymnastics as a kid?

你小时候练过体操吗？

I did.

我做到了。

But not seriously, not for very long.

但不是很严重，也不是很长时间。

And one time someone, another academic, he was like, you can do the splits?

有一次，有人，另一位学者，他说，你可以做劈叉吗？

That's super weird.

这太奇怪了。

I'm like, yes, it is weird.

我想，是的，这很奇怪。

And he was like, how can you do that?

他说，你怎么能这么做？

I was like, well, as a kid, I was in gymnastics, and then I stretched all the time.

我当时想，好吧，小时候我参加体操，然后我一直在伸展身体。

And he was like, that is the dumbest causal story I've ever heard in my life.

他说，这是我一生中听过的最愚蠢的因果故事。

There's no way that that is the single, even the most important cause, right?

这不可能是唯一的、甚至是最重要的原因，对吧？

And I just thought, I think about that as like, my whole life I've been.

我只是想，我认为这就像我的一生一样。

I've been posed with this puzzle of why do I, why can I do this weird thing?

我一直困惑于为什么我会做这种奇怪的事情？

And I had told myself that, and I don't think that's even remotely true.

我曾这样告诉自己，但我认为这根本不是真的。

I think there's, for whatever reason, it just kind of developed.

我认为，无论出于何种原因，它只是有所发展。

So I can't fully answer your question about why I like got super interested in, in this work, but I will say that out of college, I thought I was going to be a lawyer.

所以我无法完全回答你关于为什么我对这项工作超级感兴趣的问题，但我会说，大学毕业后，我以为我会成为一名律师。

And that's because my, my college major was something called the program of liberal studies, which is a great books.

那是因为我的大学专业是自由研究课程，这是一本很棒的书。

Major where you read the great works of history and philosophy and stuff.

专业是你阅读历史、哲学之类的伟大著作的地方。

Yeah.

是的。

And then you read them in order.

然后你按顺序阅读它们。

And so, and there's no lectures allowed, and you can't even read the introduction to the book, so you just have to, like, read Hume and pretend like you can understand it and Kant and stuff like that, and you argue with other 19-year-olds about what it might mean, and I loved it.

所以，不允许讲课，你甚至不能读这本书的简介，所以你只能读休谟，假装你能理解它和康德之类的东西，然后你和其他 19 岁的孩子争论它可能意味着什么，我喜欢它。

It was great.

太棒了。

I still don't know what Kant was talking about, but I'll figure that out at some point, but then...

我仍然不知道康德在说什么，但我会在某个时候弄清楚这一点，但是然后......

With PLS, the joke is probably law school, which is the answer to the question of what are you going to do with this liberal arts major?

有了PLS，笑话可能是法学院，这就是你打算用这个文科专业做什么的问题的答案。

And so I thought that's what I'll do.

所以我想这就是我要做的。

But at the last second, I just had a change of heart.

但在最后一秒，我改变了主意。

And so I went and taught in a really low-income school in Tulsa, Oklahoma.

所以我去了俄克拉荷马州塔尔萨的一所低收入学校任教。

And I ended up being the sixth through eighth.

我最终排名第六到第八。

English teacher, the K-8 basketball coach.

英语老师，K-8篮球教练。

I coached, or a K-8 PE coach, and then I coached basketball and ran the book club and, like, ran the Cat 5 cables to fix the Internet in the attic, you know.

我当过教练，或者说是一名 K-8 体育教练，然后我当过篮球教练，经营读书俱乐部，还经营过 5 类电缆来修复阁楼上的互联网，你知道。

And it was great.

这太棒了。

I worked, like, 100 hours a week.

我每周工作 100 个小时。

I made $12,000 a year.

我一年赚 12,000 美元。

It was a lot of fun.

这很有趣。

I had a great time.

我玩得很开心。

And at the end of it, I thought, now I'm going to go to law school.

最后，我想，现在我要去法学院了。

And when I was doing my applications, I was like, A friend of mine died of cancer.

当我做申请时，我想，我的一个朋友死于癌症。

He got sarcoma.

他得了肉瘤。

It was real quick.

速度真的很快。

It was like six months.

大约有六个月的时间。

And we all went back to college and were there for a service.

我们都回到了大学并在那里接受服务。

And I remember being in the airport.

我记得当时在机场。

And I picked up.

我接了起来。

Jeffrey Sachs, End of Poverty.

杰弗里·萨克斯，《贫困的终结》。

Which is a popular book at the time.

是当时很受欢迎的一本书。

And just thinking like, here's a guy who like, I don't know, was doing something pretty mundane, macroeconomics, but he was spending all his time.

只是想，有一个人，我不知道，正在做一些非常平凡的宏观经济学，但他把所有的时间都花在了上面。

Talking world leaders in other countries out of crushing death that was causing poverty.

劝说其他国家的世界领导人不要因死亡而导致贫困。

And it's like taking whatever precocious skill he had and using it for others.

这就像把他所拥有的早熟技能运用到别人身上一样。

And I thought law is not my Jeff Sachs skill.

我认为法律不是我杰夫·萨克斯的技能。

But what I do know how to do is motivate teenagers.

但我所知道的就是激励青少年。

Like that's how I spend all my time.

我就这样度过了我所有的时间。

And so I thought I just want to do I want to do this science of motivating young people like as much as possible So then I went to Stanford.

所以我想我只是想做这门科学，尽可能地激励年轻人，然后我去了斯坦福大学。

I'd never taken stats before, never taken psychology, but I just tried to become like a wild man, learning as much as I could.

我以前从未学过统计学，也从未学过心理学，但我只是想变得像个野人，尽可能多地学习。

And thankfully, in my third year, Carol started working with me.

值得庆幸的是，在我的第三年，卡罗尔开始和我一起工作。

And we kind of haven't looked back since.

从那以后我们就再也没有回头过。

Awesome story.

很棒的故事。

So totally mission driven and.

所以完全是使命驱动的。

And post hoc causal inference.

以及事后因果推理。

So who knows if that's actually the story, but that those are, those sequence of events did occur though.

所以谁知道这是否真的是故事，但那些事件确实发生了。

Post hoc causal inference.

事后因果推理。

I guess you can map onto that famous Steve Jobs commencement speech at Stanford where he's basically saying you can't connect the dots going forward, only backwards.

我想你可以联想到著名的史蒂夫·乔布斯在斯坦福大学的毕业典礼演讲，他基本上说你无法将前进的点连接起来，只能向后连接。

So it all makes sense looking back.

所以回顾过去，这一切都是有道理的。

Exactly.

确切地。

You know, this led to that, led to this, led to that, but going forward, we're, we're kind of stumbling in the dark a bit.

你知道，这导致了那个，导致了这个，导致了那个，但展望未来，我们有点在黑暗中绊倒。

Well.

出色地。

I must say, I and everyone else are so grateful.

我必须说，我和其他人都非常感激。

That you made that choice or those choices.

你做出了那个或那些选择。

Clearly, the work you're doing is having a huge impact.

显然，您所做的工作正在产生巨大的影响。

I covered a few of your papers on the solo episode on growth mindset.

我在关于成长心态的独奏节目中报道了您的一些论文。

And you mentioned nature and the fact that most people don't publish there at all, let alone once or twice or several times in their career.

你提到了大自然，以及大多数人根本不在那儿发表文章的事实，更不用说在他们的职业生涯中发表过一两次或几次了。

You've had an amazing run lately.

你最近的表现非常出色。

And you just had this incredible arc of papers in this area of which can be distilled down to, I think, forgive me if this doesn't catch.

你刚刚在这个领域有了令人难以置信的论文弧线，我想，如果这不明白的话，请原谅我。

At all, but figuring out how people can be the best version of themselves for their own lives and for the world, right?

无论如何，但要弄清楚人们如何才能成为自己生活和世界最好的自己，对吧？

I mean, that's essentially what we're talking about here.

我的意思是，这本质上就是我们在这里讨论的内容。

And I love the way you incorporate the neuroscience and the motivation literature, and you're so good at attribution as something that we should all model ourselves around.

我喜欢你将神经科学和动机文献结合起来的方式，你非常擅长归因，我们都应该以此为榜样。

It's really an incredible literature, and I'm excited to read the book, 10 to 25, genuinely excited.

这确实是一本令人难以置信的文学作品，我很高兴能读到这本书，10到25岁，真的很兴奋。

This notion of...

这个概念...

Mentor mindset and how we can bring out the best in ourselves and others.

导师心态以及我们如何才能发挥出自己和他人最好的一面。

It's a, it's phenomenal that you're doing this work.

你从事这项工作真是太了不起了。

Please keep going.

请继续。

And I'm speaking on behalf of myself and everyone else.

我代表我自己和其他人发言。

I say, you know, thanks for taking time out of your busy research schedule and teaching schedule to come here and teach millions of people about what you do and what they can do to be their best.

我说，你知道，感谢你从繁忙的研究日程和教学日程中抽出时间来到这里，向数百万人传授你所做的事情以及他们可以做些什么来做到最好。

So thank you so much.

非常感谢。

Well, Well, we're just getting started and.

好吧，好吧，我们才刚刚开始。

It was great to be here.

很高兴来到这里。

I did.

我做到了。

I, I'm mom.

我，我是妈妈。

I missed baseball practice tonight.

我错过了今晚的棒球训练。

So not for me, but for a nine-year-olds.

所以不是为了我，而是为了一个九岁的孩子。

An apology to your nine-year-olds plural.

向你九岁的孩子道歉。

Yeah.

是的。

Okay.

好的。

Yeah.

是的。

Oh, cause there's more.

哦，因为还有更多。

There are many of them on the team.

团队里有很多这样的人。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Okay.

好的。

This is back in Austin.

这是回到奥斯汀。

Yeah.

是的。

Okay.

好的。

When's their next game?

他们的下一场比赛是什么时候？

A couple, three or four weeks.

几个，三四个星期。

So we have plenty of time.

所以我们有充足的时间。

We're still learning how to throw and hit.

我们仍在学习如何投掷和击打。

We'll get there.

我们会到达那里。

Well, depending on when this episode comes out, you can let me know if they won or lost and, and, apologies.

好吧，根据这一集的播出时间，你可以让我知道他们是赢了还是输了，还有，抱歉。

That's the process.

就是这样的过程。

That's right.

这是正确的。

I, that game is important.

我，那场比赛很重要。

And, but I can assure you that the, the information that you've, you've given us is, is, is sure to make a huge difference in people's lives.

而且，但我可以向您保证，您向我们提供的信息肯定会对人们的生活产生巨大的影响。

So thank you so much.

非常感谢。

Thanks for having me.

谢谢你有我。

Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. David Yeager.

感谢您参加今天与大卫·耶格尔博士的讨论。

To learn more about his research, to find links to his Social Media accounts, and to learn more about his upcoming book, 10 to 25, The Science of Motivating Young People, simply go to the links in our show note captions.

要了解有关他的研究的更多信息，找到他的社交媒体帐户的链接，并了解有关他即将出版的新书《10 到 25》《激励年轻人的科学》的更多信息，只需转到我们的节目注释标题中的链接即可。

If you're learning from and or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel.

如果您正在学习或喜欢此播客，请订阅我们的 YouTube 频道。

That's a terrific zero cost way to support us.

这是支持我们的绝佳零成本方式。

Please also subscribe to the podcast on both Spotify and Apple.

另请在 Spotify 和 Apple 上订阅该播客。

And on both Spotify and Apple, you can leave us up to a five-star review.

在 Spotify 和 Apple 上，您都可以给我们五星级的评价。

Please check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode.

请查看今天节目开头和整个节目中提到的赞助商。

That's the best way to support this podcast.

这是支持这个播客的最佳方式。

If you have questions for me or comments about the podcast or guests or topics that you'd like me to consider for the Huberman Lab podcast, please put those in the comment section on YouTube.

如果您对我有疑问，或者对播客或嘉宾有意见，或者您希望我为 Huberman Lab 播客考虑的主题，请在 YouTube 上的评论部分留言。

I do read all the comments.

我确实阅读了所有评论。

Not so much on today's episode, but on many previous episodes of the Huberman Lab podcast, we discuss supplements.

今天的节目不多，但在 Huberman 实验室播客的许多以前的节目中，我们讨论了补充剂。

While supplements aren't necessary for everybody, Many people derive tremendous benefit from them for things like improving sleep, for hormone support, and for focus.

虽然补充剂并不是每个人都需要的，但许多人都从它们中获得了巨大的好处，例如改善睡眠、激素支持和注意力集中。

To learn more about the supplements discussed on the Huberman Lab podcast, go to livemomentous, spelled O-U-S, so that's livemomentous.com slash Huberman.

要了解有关 Huberman Lab 播客上讨论的补充剂的更多信息，请访问 livemomentous，拼写为 O-U-S，即 livemomentous.com 斜线 Huberman。

If you're not already following me on Social Media, I am Huberman Lab on all Social Media platforms.

如果您还没有在社交媒体上关注我，我是所有社交媒体平台上的 Huberman Lab。

So that's Instagram, X, Threads, Facebook, and LinkedIn.

这就是 Instagram、X、Threads、Facebook 和 LinkedIn。

And on all those platforms, I discuss science and science-related tools, some of which overlaps with the content of the Huberman Lab podcast, but much of which is distinct from the content of the Huberman Lab podcast.

在所有这些平台上，我讨论科学和科学相关的工具，其中一些与胡伯曼实验室播客的内容重叠，但其中大部分与胡伯曼实验室播客的内容不同。

Again, that's Huberman Lab on all Social Media platforms.

同样，这是所有社交媒体平台上的 Huberman Lab。

If you haven't already subscribed to our Neural Network newsletter, the Neural Network newsletter is a zero cost monthly newsletter that includes podcast summaries, as well as protocols in the form of brief one to three page PDFs for things like how to optimize your sleep, how to optimize your dopamine, deliberate cold exposure.

如果您还没有订阅我们的神经网络时事通讯，神经网络时事通讯是一份零成本的月度时事通讯，其中包括播客摘要以及一到三页 PDF 形式的简短协议，内容涉及如何优化您的睡眠、如何优化多巴胺、故意冷暴露等内容。

We have a foundational fitness protocol and a protocol for neuroplasticity and learning and a lot more.

我们有一个基本的健身协议以及神经可塑性和学习协议等等。

All of which again is completely zero cost to access.

所有这些又完全是零成本访问。

You simply go to Huberman Lab, go to the menu tab, scroll down to newsletter and provide your email.

您只需前往 Huberman Lab，转到菜单选项卡，向下滚动到时事通讯并提供您的电子邮件即可。

And we do not share your email with anybody.

我们不会与任何人分享您的电子邮件。

Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion, all about growth mindset and the stress can be performance enhancing mindset with Dr. David Yeager.

再次感谢您参加今天的讨论，与 David Yeager 博士一起讨论成长心态和压力可以提高绩效的心态。

And last, but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.

最后但同样重要的是，感谢您对科学的兴趣。