Dr. David Spiegel: Using Hypnosis to Enhance Mental & Physical Health & Performance
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.
欢迎来到休伯曼实验室播客，我们在这里讨论科学和基于科学的日常生活工具。
I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.
我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。
Today, my guest is Dr. David Spiegel.
今天，我的嘉宾是大卫·斯皮格尔博士。
Dr. Spiegel is the associate chair of psychiatry and behavioral sciences at Stanford University School of Medicine.
斯皮格尔博士是斯坦福大学医学院精神病学和行为科学副主任。
He is also the director of the Stanford Center on Stress and Health.
他还是斯坦福压力与健康中心的主任。
Dr. Spiegel is both a researcher and a clinician.
Spiegel 博士既是一名研究员，又是一名临床医生。
Meaning, he runs a laboratory that studies the brain and the body, and neural mechanisms of how the brain and body interact, and he sees patients as a psychiatrist at Stanford.
意思是，他经营着一个实验室，研究大脑和身体，以及大脑和身体如何相互作用的神经机制，他以斯坦福大学的精神病学家的身份看诊病人。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
His work is incredibly unique in that it bridges mind and body, but it also has a particular focus on the clinical applications of hypnosis.
他的工作非常独特，因为它连接了心灵和身体，但也特别关注催眠的临床应用。
As you'll learn today, hypnosis is a unique brain state in which neuroplasticity, the brain's ability to change in response to experience, may be heightened.
正如您今天将了解到的，催眠是一种独特的大脑状态，在这种状态下，神经可塑性（大脑响应经历而变化的能力）可能会得到增强。
And indeed, the use of clinical hypnosis by Dr. Spiegel and colleagues has been shown to improve symptoms of stress, chronic anxiety, chronic pain, and various other illnesses, including many psychiatric illnesses and even outcomes in cancer.
事实上，斯皮格尔博士及其同事使用临床催眠已被证明可以改善压力、慢性焦虑、慢性疼痛和各种其他疾病的症状，包括许多精神疾病，甚至癌症的结果。
Today, we discuss hypnosis in the context of what's called self-hypnosis to distinguish it from stage hypnosis.
今天，我们在所谓的自我催眠的背景下讨论催眠，以将其与阶段催眠区分开来。
Many of you are probably familiar with stage hypnosis, which is really about a hypnotist getting a person to do things that they would not otherwise do.
你们中的许多人可能熟悉舞台催眠，这实际上是催眠师让一个人做他们不会做的事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In contrast, clinical hypnosis and the use of hypnosis for the treatment of various ailments of mind and body is vastly different.
相比之下，临床催眠和利用催眠治疗各种身心疾病有很大不同。
It involves getting people to change their brain state and to use that brain state as a portal to make adjustments in their brain and body, and other aspects of their biology and psychology that benefit them.
它涉及让人们改变他们的大脑状态，并利用该大脑状态作为门户来调整他们的大脑和身体，以及对他们有利的生物学和心理学的其他方面。
And it's been shown over and over again in studies by Dr. Spiegel and colleagues that those changes can occur extremely quickly.
斯皮格尔博士及其同事的研究一再表明，这些变化可能会非常快地发生。
Now, not everybody can be hypnotized as readily as the next.
现在，并不是每个人都能像下一个那样容易被催眠。
Today, we also discuss a simple test developed by Dr. Spiegel that can help you determine whether or not you have a high, medium, or low degree of what we call hypnotizability.
今天，我们还讨论了 Spiegel 博士开发的一个简单测试，它可以帮助您确定您的催眠能力是高、中还是低。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Dr. Spiegel is truly an expert in this area.
Spiegel 博士确实是该领域的专家。
He has published over 480 journal articles, 170 book chapters on hypnosis and on things like psychosocial oncology, which is the interaction of mind and body in the treatment of cancer and cancer outcomes, on stress physiology, trauma, and other aspects of psychotherapy.
他发表了 480 多篇期刊文章和 170 多篇书籍章节，内容涉及催眠和社会心理肿瘤学（癌症治疗和癌症结果中身心的相互作用）、应激生理学、创伤和心理治疗的其他方面。
He's published 13 books.
他出版了 13 本书。
He's truly the world expert in hypnosis and clinical applications of hypnosis for mind and body.
他是真正的世界催眠专家以及催眠对身心的临床应用。
I'm certain that in listening to today's episode, you're going to learn a tremendous amount about how the brain and body interact, about various treatments for all sorts of common ailments of mind and body.
我确信，在收听今天的节目时，您将学到大量关于大脑和身体如何相互作用的知识，以及针对各种常见身心疾病的各种治疗方法。
And you are going to get access to tools.
您将能够使用工具。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In particular, a tool that was developed by Dr. Spiegel, which is the Reveri app, R-E-V-E-R-I.
特别是 Spiegel 博士开发的一个工具，即 Reveri 应用程序，R-E-V-E-R-I。
Reveri app is currently only available for Apple, but will soon also be available for Android.
Reveri 应用程序目前仅适用于 Apple，但很快也将适用于 Android。
It does carry a nominal cost, but there is a 7-day free trial if you'd like to try it.
它确实需要支付象征性的费用，但如果您想尝试的话，可以享受 7 天的免费试用期。
We're providing a link in the show notes.
我们在演出笔记中提供了一个链接。
The Reveri app is special, in that it is based on clinical studies and research done in the Spiegel Lab at Stanford.
Reveri 应用程序很特别，因为它基于斯坦福大学 Spiegel 实验室所做的临床研究和研究。
Unlike a lot of hypnosis apps out there and resources for hypnosis, it was developed with clinical treatments in mind.
与许多催眠应用程序和催眠资源不同，它是根据临床治疗而开发的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Today, we also discussed the use of breathwork, and I'm very fortunate that my research lab at Stanford has been collaborating very closely with Dr. Spiegel in testing and developing specific breathwork protocols, to adjust mind and body for things like anxiety, improving mood, and improving sleep.
今天，我们还讨论了呼吸法的使用，我很幸运，我在斯坦福大学的研究实验室一直与 Spiegel 博士密切合作，测试和开发特定的呼吸法方案，以调整身心以应对焦虑、改善情绪和改善睡眠等问题。
Based on his incredible and unique expertise and the clarity with which Dr. Spiegel communicates information, I anticipate that you will really enjoy today's episode, and that you'll come away from it with a lot of actionable tools.
基于 Spiegel 博士令人难以置信且独特的专业知识以及他传达信息的清晰度，我预计您会非常喜欢今天的节目，并且您将获得许多可操作的工具。
Some of you might be curious what a clinical hypnosis session looks.
你们中的一些人可能好奇临床催眠疗程是什么样的。
And for that reason, we had Dr. Spiegel hypnotize me.
出于这个原因，我们让斯皮格尔博士对我进行了催眠。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
A clip of that hypnosis session is going to be posted to the Huberman Lab Clips channel, which is available on YouTube.
该催眠过程的剪辑将发布到 Huberman Lab Clips 频道，该频道可在 YouTube 上观看。
Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.
在开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。
It is however part of my desire and effort to bring zero-cost-to-consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public.
然而，我的愿望和努力的一部分是将有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本消费者信息带给公众。
In keeping with that theme, I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast.
为了与这个主题保持一致，我要感谢今天播客的赞助商。
And now, for my discussion with Dr. David Spiegel.
现在，我与大卫·斯皮格尔博士进行了讨论。
David, thank so you much for being here.
大卫，非常感谢你来到这里。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
Andrew, my pleasure.
安德鲁，我的荣幸。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Can you tell us what is hypnosis?
你能告诉我们什么是催眠吗？
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
Ah, hypnosis is a state of highly focused attention.
啊，催眠是一种注意力高度集中的状态。
It's something like looking through the telephoto lens of a camera in consciousness.
这有点像在意识中通过相机的长焦镜头观看。
What you see, you see with great detail, but devoid of context.
你所看到的，你看到的非常详细，但缺乏上下文。
If you've had the experience of getting so caught up in a good movie, that you forget you're watching a movie and enter the imagined world, you're part of the movie, not part of the audience, you're experiencing it, you're not evaluating it, that's a hypnotic-like experience that many people have in their everyday lives.
如果你有过这样的经历：沉浸在一部好电影中，以至于你忘记了自己正在看一部电影，进入了想象的世界，你是电影的一部分，而不是观众的一部分，你是在体验它，你不是在评价它，这是一种催眠般的体验，很多人在日常生活中都有过。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is any experience that really draws us in hypnotic in that sense?
从这个意义上说，有什么经历真正能让我们进入催眠状态吗？
Or let me give a different example.
或者让我举一个不同的例子。
If I'm watching a sports game, and I'm really wrapped up in the game, but I'm also in touch with how it makes me feel in my body, registering the excitement or the anticipation, is that a state of hypnosis also?
如果我正在观看一场体育比赛，我真的很沉浸在比赛中，但我也能体会到比赛让我在身体里的感觉，记录下兴奋或期待，这也是一种催眠状态吗？
Because you mentioned there's a narrowing of context, but a losing of the self, or did I have that right?
因为你提到了语境的缩小，但自我的丧失，或者我说得对吗？
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
Yes, it is true that to the extent that your body experience is a part of this sport event that you're engaged with, I'd say that is a self-altering hypnotic experience.
是的，确实，就你的身体体验是你所参与的体育赛事的一部分而言，我想说这是一种自我改变的催眠体验。
If your physical reactions are distracting you, or make you think about something else, that's when it's less hypnotic-like and more just one of a series of experiences.
如果你的身体反应分散了你的注意力，或者让你思考其他事情，那么它就不那么像催眠了，而更像是一系列体验中的一个。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
I have to ask, how did you get into this business of hypnosis?
我想问一下，你是怎么进入催眠这个行业的？
Because I think for most people, when they hear hypnosis or they think about hypnosis, they think of stage hypnosis.
因为我认为对于大多数人来说，当他们听到催眠或想到催眠时，他们会想到舞台催眠。
They think of somebody with a pendant going back and forth, or people up on a stage behaving abnormally for the entertainment of others.
他们想象有人带着吊坠来回走动，或者舞台上的人为了娱乐他人而表现异常。
How did you get into hypnosis as an interest, as a practice?
你是如何开始将催眠作为一种兴趣和练习的？
And if you would, could you contrast the hypnosis that you do in the clinical setting with the hypnosis that a stage hypnotist does?
如果您愿意，您能否将您在临床环境中进行的催眠与舞台催眠师进行的催眠进行对比？
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
Sure.
当然。
Well, it is something of a genetic illness in my family.
嗯，这是我家族的一种遗传病。
Both of my parents were psychiatrists and psychoanalysts.
我的父母都是精神病学家和精神分析师。
And they told me I was free to be any kind of psychiatrist I wanted to be, so here I am.
他们告诉我，我可以自由地成为我想成为的任何类型的精神科医生，所以我在这里。
My father was training to be a psychoanalyst in 1943, and he ran into a Viennese refugee who couldn't serve in the army, but who had studied hypnosis.
1943 年，我父亲正在接受心理分析师培训，他遇到了一位无法参军但研究过催眠术的维也纳难民。
And actually, it would interest you doing your ophthalmological research.
实际上，您会对进行眼科研究感兴趣。
He had a smallpox scar right in the middle of his forehead, and he did forensic examinations.
他额头正中有一处天花疤痕，他做了法医检查。
And he noticed that some of the prisoners would focus on that spot on his forehead, and then close their eyes and seemed to go to sleep, but they were in some altered state.
他注意到有些囚犯会把注意力集中在他额头上的那个地方，然后闭上眼睛，似乎睡着了，但他们的状态发生了某种变化。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
He got interested in hypnosis.
他对催眠产生了兴趣。
He used it forensically, and his name was Gustav von Aschaffenburg.
他将其用于法医鉴定，他的名字叫古斯塔夫·冯·阿沙芬堡。
And he offered to teach young psychiatrists how to use hypnosis when they went off into the war.
他还提出教年轻的精神病学家在参战时如何使用催眠术。
He trained my father, and my father got off the analytic couch and asked ...
他训练了我的父亲，我的父亲从分析沙发上下来并问......
The analyst mentioned it to him, that's how he found out about it.
分析师向他提到了这件事，他就是这样发现的。
And my father said, "Did I say something wrong in analysis?
我父亲说：“我在分析中说错了什么吗？
Why is he talking to me now?" And he found it very useful in helping soldiers, who had acute pain when they were wounded, and helping people with conversion post-traumatic stress disorders.
他为什么现在跟我说话？”他发现它对于帮助受伤时感到剧烈疼痛的士兵以及帮助患有创伤后应激障碍的人非常有用。
And when he came back, he went back to his training, but he still was interested in it.
当他回来后，他又继续训练，但他仍然对此感兴趣。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
And one of his supervisors was Frieda Fromm-Reichmann, who was a very famous psychoanalyst.
他的导师之一是弗里达·弗洛姆·赖希曼（Frieda Fromm-Reichmann），她是一位非常著名的精神分析学家。
And he said that he had been told to stop doing hypnosis, because it would ruin his reputation as an analyst.
他说他被告知停止进行催眠，因为这会毁掉他作为分析师的声誉。
And she said to him, "What are you so worried about your reputation for?
她对他说：“你为什么这么担心你的名声呢？
You're going to give a course at the Institute in Hypnosis.
你将在催眠学院教授一门课程。
And I know you're going to do it because I'm going to take it." He was teaching Frieda Fromm-Reichmann hypnosis, and he just kept doing it.
我知道你会这么做，因为我会接受它。”他正在教弗里达·弗洛姆-赖希曼催眠，并且他一直在这样做。
And after a while, he discovered that he was getting better results with a few sessions of hypnosis than he was with daily psychoanalysis with his patients.
过了一段时间，他发现几次催眠的效果比每天对病人进行精神分析的效果要好。
He switched his practice.
他改变了他的做法。
The dinner table conversations were pretty interesting.
饭桌上的谈话很有趣。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
And occasionally, when he was making a movie of a patient, I would get to watch that.
有时，当他制作一部关于病人的电影时，我会去看。
When I went to medical school, I figured I'll take a course.
当我去医学院时，我想我应该选一门课程。
Tom Hackett, who was a chair of psychiatry at Mass General, was teaching it.
麻省总医院精神病学系主任汤姆·哈克特（Tom Hackett）正在教授这门课程。
It was a very interesting course.
这是一门非常有趣的课程。
And the day that converted me was I was doing my rotation at Children's Hospital in Boston, and the nurse is telling me, "Spiegel, your next patient is an asthmatic in room 437," or something.
改变我想法的那一天，我在波士顿儿童医院轮班，护士告诉我，“斯皮格尔，你的下一个病人是 437 室的哮喘患者，”之类的。
And I'm just following the sound of the wheezes down the hall.
我只是顺着走廊里传来的喘息声。
I go in the room.
我走进房间。
There's this 16-year-old girl, knuckles white, bolt upright in bed, struggling for breath.
这是一个 16 岁的女孩，指关节发白，在床上直立起来，呼吸困难。
You can hear the wheezing.
你可以听到喘息声。
She'd twice had subcutaneous epinephrine, didn't work.
她曾两次皮下注射肾上腺素，但没有效果。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
They were thinking about general anesthesia, and starting her on steroids.
他们正在考虑全身麻醉，并开始给她服用类固醇。
And her mother's there crying, and I said, "I don't know what else to do." I said, "You want to learn a breathing exercise?" And she nods, and I got her hypnotized.
她妈妈在那里哭，我说：“我不知道还能做什么。”我说：“你想学呼吸练习吗？”她点点头，我就催眠了她。
And then I realized we hadn't gotten asthma in the course yet.
然后我意识到我们在课程中还没有得哮喘。
I made up something very complex.
我编造了一些非常复杂的东西。
I said, "Each breath you take will be a little deeper and a little easier." And within five minutes, she's lying back in bed.
我说：“你的每一次呼吸都会更深一点、更容易一点。”五分钟之内，她就躺回床上了。
Her knuckles aren't white, she's not wheezing, her mother stopped crying.
她的指关节不再发白，不再喘息，她母亲也不再哭泣。
The nurse ran out of the room and the intern, my intern comes to find me.
护士和实习生跑出了房间，我的实习生来找我。
And I figure he is going to pat me on the back and say, "Nice job, Spiegel."
我想他会拍拍我的背说：“干得好，斯皮格尔。”
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
He said, "The nurse has filed a complaint with a nursing supervisor that you violated a Massachusetts law by hypnotizing a minor without parental consent." And I thought, "Oh, that's nice.
他说：“护士已向护理主管投诉，称你未经父母同意催眠未成年人，违反了马萨诸塞州法律。”我想：“哦，那太好了。
I doubt there is a law like this." The intern says, "You're going to have to stop doing this with her." And I said, "Why?" He said, "It's dangerous." I said, "You're going to give her generalized anesthesia and put her on steroids, and talking to her is dangerous?" He said, "Well, you'll have to do it." And I said, "I'll tell you what.
我怀疑是否有这样的法律。”实习生说：“你必须停止和她做这种事。”我说：“为什么？”他说：“这很危险。”我说：“你要给她全身麻醉，并给她服用类固醇，和她说话很危险吗？”他说：“好吧，你必须这么做。”我说：“我会告诉你什么。
Take me off the case if you want, but I'm not going to tell a patient of mine anything I know is not true." There was a battle over the weekend about what to do, and the intern, the chief resident, attending were all arguing about it.
如果你愿意的话，可以让我脱离这个案子，但我不会告诉我的病人任何我知道不真实的事情。”周末有一场关于该做什么的争论，参加的实习生、总住院医师都在争论这个问题。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
And on Monday, they came back with a radical idea.
周一，他们带着一个激进的想法回来了。
They said, "Let's ask the patient." I don't think this has ever been done at Children's Hospital before, and she said, "Oh, I like this." She'd been hospitalized every month for three months in status asthmaticus.
他们说：“我们去问问病人吧。”我想以前儿童医院从来没有这样做过，她说：“哦，我喜欢这个。”她因哮喘持续状态每月住院三个月。
She did have one subsequent hospitalization, but after that, went on to study to be a respiratory therapist.
她随后确实住院了一次，但在那之后，她继续学习成为一名呼吸治疗师。
And I thought that anything that can help a patient that much, violate a nonexistent Massachusetts law, frustrate the nursing supervisor had to be worth looking into.
我认为任何可以帮助病人这么多、违反马萨诸塞州不存在的法律、让护理主管感到沮丧的事情都值得研究。
I just kept doing it.
我只是一直这样做。
I discovered that all of my classmates in medical school had just read the new issue of the New England Journal, and had some new medication to suggest.
我发现我医学院的同学都刚刚读了新一期的《新英格兰杂志》，并提出了一些新的药物建议。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
And surgeons would say, "Look, if you can help this guy with his pain or his anxiety, anything above the neck, that's yours, do it, Spiegel." I was having fun and being able to learn how to help people in a way that just otherwise was not being done.
外科医生会说，“听着，如果你能帮助这个人缓解疼痛或焦虑，脖子以上的任何东西都是你的，那就去做吧，斯皮格尔。”我很开心，并且能够学习如何以一种其他方式无法做到的方式帮助人们。
It got me thinking about the fact that we're born with this brain, but we don't have a user's manual for it.
这让我想到这样一个事实：我们生来就有这个大脑，但我们没有它的用户手册。
And we don't use it nearly as well as we can, and that's something your research is all about too.
我们并没有尽我们所能地使用它，这也是你的研究的全部内容。
I thought, I want to understand this better, and I want see what we can do.
我想，我想更好地理解这一点，我想看看我们能做什么。
Stage hypnotists drive me nuts.
舞台催眠师快把我逼疯了。
They make fools out of people.
他们愚弄人。
This is a case my father was involved.
这是我父亲参与的一个案件。
He was at Columbia.
他当时在哥伦比亚大学。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
He got a call, "Spiegel, you got to come see this woman.
他接到一个电话：“斯皮格尔，你必须来见见这个女人。
She's in the ER, and she's in some weird upset state that happened." And it turned out she'd been on the show with a stage hypnotist who ...
她在急诊室，而且她正处于发生的某种奇怪的不安状态。”原来她和一位舞台催眠师一起参加了演出，而催眠师......
and what they do by the way is they cycle around.
顺便说一句，他们所做的就是循环。
The beginning of the show, they don't just grab somebody and say, "We're doing this." They get a bunch of people up.
节目开始时，他们不只是抓住某人并说：“我们正在这样做。”他们让一群人起来。
They do what amounts to mass hypnotizability testing to see if people ...
他们进行了相当于大规模催眠能力测试，看看人们是否......
and they get the ones who are the most hypnotizable.
他们得到了最容易催眠的人。
So, she was the one and he said, "There's now a little bird in your hand, and you're going to play with a bird." And she starts to cry and scream.
所以，她就是那个人，他说：“现在你手里有一只小鸟，你要和一只小鸟一起玩。”她开始哭泣和尖叫。
And he just gets her off the stage because it's very upsetting.
他只是让她离开舞台，因为这非常令人不安。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
And she's wandering around New York City in the middle of the night dissociated, and brought to Columbia.
她半夜在纽约市徘徊，与人分离，并被带到哥伦比亚。
And that's where my father saw her.
那就是我父亲看到她的地方。
She was still in a uncomfortable trance-like state, and it turned out that she was the trophy wife of a very wealthy guy.
她还处于一种不舒服的恍惚状态，原来她是一个很有钱人的花瓶老婆。
And she felt like a bird in a gilded cage.
她感觉自己就像一只被关在镀金笼子里的小鸟。
To her, that image just triggered all of this sense of dissatisfaction, discomfort, fear about her life.
对她来说，这个形象引发了她对生活的所有不满、不适和恐惧。
And he was able to get her reoriented, and talk with her about what she was going to do with her life, but I don't like stage hypnosis.
他能够让她重新定位，并与她谈论她要做什么，但我不喜欢舞台催眠。
You're making fools out of people, and you're using the fact ...
你在愚弄人们，而且你在利用事实......
and that's what scares people about hypnosis.
这就是人们对催眠感到恐惧的原因。
They think you're losing control; you're gaining control.
他们认为你正在失去控制；你正在获得控制权。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
Self-hypnosis is a way of enhancing your control over your mind and your body.
自我催眠是增强对自己的思想和身体的控制的一种方法。
It can work very well.
它可以很好地工作。
But because it gives you a cognitive flexibility, you're able to shift sets very easily, to give up judging and evaluating the way you usually do and see something from a different point of view.
但因为它给了你认知灵活性，你可以很容易地改变设置，放弃你通常做的判断和评估方式，并从不同的角度看待事物。
That's a great therapeutic opportunity, but if misused, it could be a danger too.
这是一个很好的治疗机会，但如果滥用，也可能会带来危险。
And that's what scares people about it.
这就是人们害怕的地方。
It is that very ability to suspend critical judgment, and just have an experience and see what happens.
这就是暂停批判性判断，只是去体验并看看会发生什么的能力。
That can be a great therapeutic opportunity.
这可能是一个很好的治疗机会。
But if somebody's misusing it, it can be a way to harm people.
但如果有人滥用它，它可能会成为伤害他人的一种方式。
And there are plenty of examples of people having fantasies imposed on them that they come to think are realities.
有很多例子表明人们强加于他们的幻想，但他们认为这些幻想是现实。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
It's not unusual these days.
这些天这并不罕见。
It's an ability that if people learn to recognize and understand it can be a tremendous therapeutic tool.
如果人们学会认识和理解这种能力，它可以成为一种巨大的治疗工具。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I've been stage hypnotized, and I've been clinically hypnotized many times through a self-hypnosis app, we'll talk about it later.
我已经被阶段性催眠了，而且我已经通过自我催眠应用程序被临床催眠过很多次了，我们稍后再谈。
And then I know we have plans for you to hypnotize me today.
然后我知道我们计划让你今天催眠我。
You've done it once before, and I'm very hypnotizable, as we both know.
你以前做过一次，而且我很容易被催眠，我们都知道。
We'll talk about how one can gauge their hypnotizability-
我们将讨论如何衡量他们的催眠能力——
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
Sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
but the stage hypnosis was interesting.
但舞台催眠很有趣。
This was in college.
这是在大学的时候。
They brought someone out to the dormitory, and I recall being one of the people that was selected, and engaging in very bizarre behavior, right?
他们把一个人带到了宿舍，我记得我是被选中的人之一，并且做出了很奇怪的行为，对吧？
It wasn't thoroughly embarrassing, but it was pretty embarrassing.
虽然不是很尴尬，但是也确实很尴尬了。
And then being sent off the stage.
然后就被赶下了舞台。
And as I was exiting, suddenly screaming something out because he had planted a suggestion of some sort.
当我退出时，突然尖叫起来，因为他提出了某种建议。
And then I was told to look in my pocket and there was I think a torn-up dollar bill.
然后我被告知去看看我的口袋，我想那里有一张撕破的美元钞票。
There were a bunch of things that I have vague recollection of, but it raises a set of questions that really boil down to as a biologist, I always think that there's no events in the brain.
有很多事情我记得很模糊，但它提出了一系列问题，这些问题实际上归结为作为一名生物学家，我一直认为大脑中没有任何事件。
There are processes.
有流程。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hypnosis, we know, has an induction, then one is hypnotized, I imagine.
我们知道，催眠有一种诱导作用，然后我想，一个人就被催眠了。
And then it sounds like this woman and this example of the bird, and being distraught in New York City is a failure to exit the hypnotic state.
然后听起来就像这个女人和这只鸟的例子，在纽约市心烦意乱是无法退出催眠状态的。
Do we know what sorts of brain areas are active during the induction, let's call it the deep hypnosis, and then what's shutting off, or changing as people exit hypnosis?
我们是否知道在诱导过程中哪些大脑区域处于活跃状态（我们称之为深度催眠），然后当人们退出催眠时哪些区域会关闭或发生变化？
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
Yes, yes, we do.
是的，是的，我们愿意。
We've studied that.
我们已经研究过了。
We've been very interested in that.
我们对此非常感兴趣。
We did a study where we selected highly and nonhypnotizable people, so we could do the comparison.
我们做了一项研究，选择了高度易催眠的人，这样我们就可以进行比较。
And then hypnotize them in the functional MRI scanner, and we found three things characterize the entry into the hypnotic state.
然后在功能性核磁共振扫描仪中对他们进行催眠，我们发现进入催眠状态的三个特征。
The first is turning down activity in the dorsal anterior cingulate cortex.
第一个是降低背侧前扣带皮层的活动。
The DACC is in the central or front middle part of the brain as you well know, and it's part of what we call the salience network.
如您所知，DACC 位于大脑的中央或前中部，它是我们所说的显着网络的一部分。
It's a conflict detector.
这是一个冲突检测器。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
If you're engaged in work, and you hear a loud noise that you think might be a gunshot, that's your anterior cingulate cortex saying, "Hey, wait a minute, there's a potential danger over there.
如果你正在工作，你听到一声巨响，你认为可能是枪声，那是你的前扣带皮层在说：“嘿，等一下，那边有潜在的危险。
You better pay attention to it." It compares what you're doing with what else is going on, and helps you decide what to do.
你最好注意一下。”它将您正在做的事情与其他正在发生的事情进行比较，并帮助您决定要做什么。
And as you can imagine, turning down activity in that region, make it less likely that you'll be distracted and pulled out of whatever you're in.
正如你可以想象的那样，减少该区域的活动，可以让你不太可能分心并脱离自己所在的地方。
And in another study, we found that highly hypnotizable people, even without billing being hypnotized, have more functional connectivity between the DACC, the anterior cingulate cortex and the left dorsal lateral prefrontal cortex, which is part of a key region in the executive control network.
在另一项研究中，我们发现高度催眠的人，即使没有被催眠，DACC、前扣带皮层和左背外侧前额叶皮层之间也有更多的功能连接，这是执行控制网络中关键区域的一部分。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
When you're engaging in tasks, you're enacting a plan, you're writing a paper, you're doing whatever you're doing —that's the prefrontal cortex is doing that.
当你从事任务时，你正在制定计划，你正在写一篇论文，你正在做你正在做的任何事情——这就是前额叶皮层在做的事情。
If that is coordinated, we found more functional chronic connectivity.
如果这是协调一致的，我们会发现更多功能性的慢性连接。
When one is up, the other's up, and one is down, the other's down.
一个人在上面，另一个人在上面；一个人在下面，另一个人在下面。
That coordination implies that the brain is saying, "Okay, go ahead.
这种协调意味着大脑在说：“好吧，继续吧。
I know what you're doing, carry out that plan and don't worry about other possibilities." Two other things happen when people are hypnotized.
我知道你在做什么，执行那个计划，不用担心其他可能性。”当人们被催眠时，还会发生另外两件事。
One is that DLPFC has higher functional connectivity with the insula, another part of the salience network.
一是 DLPFC 与岛叶（显着网络的另一部分）具有更高的功能连接。
It's a part of the mind-body control system sensitive to what's happening in the body.
它是身心控制系统的一部分，对体内发生的事情敏感。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
It's part of the pain network as well, but it's also a region of the brain, where you can control things in your body that you wouldn't think you could.
它也是疼痛网络的一部分，但它也是大脑的一个区域，在这里你可以控制你体内你认为你无法做到的事情。
For example, we did a study years ago where we took people who were highly hypnotizable, hypnotized them and told them to imagine ...
例如，我们几年前做了一项研究，我们找了一些高度容易催眠的人，对他们进行催眠并告诉他们想象......
We went on an imaginary culinary tour.
我们进行了一次想象中的美食之旅。
They would eat their favorite foods, and we found that they increased their gastric acid secretion by 87%.
他们会吃自己喜欢的食物，我们发现他们的胃酸分泌量增加了87%。
Their stomach was acting as though it was about to get ...
他们的胃表现得好像即将……
I mean there was one woman, it was so vivid for her that halfway through, she said, "Let's stop, I'm full eating these imaginary ...
我的意思是有一个女人，这对她来说是如此生动，以至于中途她说，“我们停下来吧，我已经吃饱了这些想象中的......
"
”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Having never eaten any ...
从来没吃过...
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
Having never eaten an actual, no.
从来没有吃过真正的东西，没有。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Incredible.
难以置信。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
And then we got them to relax and think of anything but food or drink.
然后我们让他们放松并思考除了食物或饮料之外的任何事情。
And we got a 40% decrease in gastric acid secretion.
我们的胃酸分泌减少了 40%。
And that was DLPFC through the insula telling the stomach you're getting food or you're not getting food.
这就是 DLPFC 通过岛叶告诉胃你正在获取食物或者你没有获取食物。
And even we injected them with pentagastrin, which triggers gastric acid release.
甚至我们给它们注射了五肽胃泌素，这会引发胃酸释放。
And even then in the hypnosis condition, that had a 19% reduction in gastric acid.
即使在催眠状态下，胃酸也减少了 19%。
The brain has this amazing ability to control what's going on in the body in ways that we don't think we have ability to control.
大脑具有这种惊人的能力，可以以我们认为自己无法控制的方式控制体内发生的事情。
That's just one example.
这只是一个例子。
So, that's the DLPFC insula connection.
这就是 DLPFC 岛叶连接。
The third thing that happens, and this relates to what you did on the stage, is you have inverse functional connectivity between the DLPFC and the posterior cingulate cortex.
发生的第三件事，这与你在舞台上所做的事情有关，是 DLPFC 和后扣带皮层之间存在反向功能连接。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
The posterior cingulate is part of the default mode network.
后扣带回是默认模式网络的一部分。
It's in the back of the brain, and it's an area whose activity goes down, for example, in meditators.
它位于大脑后部，是一个活动下降的区域，例如冥想者。
And in meditation, you're supposed to be selfless.
在冥想中，你应该是无私的。
The self is an illusion.
自我是一种幻觉。
You're supposed to let it dissolve, and just experience things.
你应该让它消失，然后去体验事物。
And when you're doing that, that posterior thing, that is decreasing an activity.
当你这样做时，后面的事情就是减少活动。
The inverse connection is I'm doing something, but I'm not thinking about what it means for me.
反向联系是我正在做某事，但我没有考虑这对我意味着什么。
I may not even remember much of it.
我什至可能不记得其中的大部分内容。
If I do, I don't care that much about it.
如果是的话，我也不会那么在意。
That is part of the dissociation that occurs with hypnosis.
这是催眠中发生的分离的一部分。
It's how you put things outside of conscious awareness, and don't worry about what it means.
这就是你如何将事情置于意识之外，而不用担心它意味着什么。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
It also adds to cognitive flexibility.
它还增加了认知灵活性。
If you're thinking, "Well, people like me don't usually do this," that may inhibit you from enacting a new form of psychotherapy, for example, that you've never done before.
如果你在想，“嗯，像我这样的人通常不会这样做”，这可能会阻止你采取一种新形式的心理治疗，例如，你以前从未做过的。
But if you're having this decreased activity in the part of your brain that reflects on what it means, you're more likely to be cognitively flexible and willing to give it a try.
但如果你大脑中反映其含义的部分活动减少，你的认知就更有可能变得灵活并愿意尝试。
And that's one of the therapeutic advantages of hypnosis as well.
这也是催眠的治疗优势之一。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Fascinating, and I'm going to embarrass you here a little bit in the positive sense.
令人着迷，我将从积极的意义上让你有点尴尬。
Your laboratory is really the one that's pioneered brain imaging of hypnotic states, and it sounds like ...
你们的实验室确实是催眠状态大脑成像领域的先驱，听起来……
that's my understanding.
这是我的理解。
Is that correct?
这是正确的吗？
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
Yeah.
是的。
I mean there are other people who've done excellent research too-
我的意思是还有其他人也做了出色的研究-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sure.
当然。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
...
...
but Pierre Rainville in Montreal and several other people, but we're one of the leading lamps in neuroimaging of hypnosis.
但是蒙特利尔的皮埃尔·雷恩维尔（Pierre Rainville）和其他几个人，但我们是催眠神经影像学领域的领军人物之一。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I have to ask about attention deficit hyperactivity disorder.
我得问一下关于注意力缺陷多动症的问题。
I get a lot of questions about this, and I think a lot of people just struggle with holding attention nowadays because of interference with phones and devices.
我收到了很多关于此的问题，我认为现在很多人都因为手机和设备的干扰而难以集中注意力。
And of course, there is a lot of clinically legitimate ADHD out there, but the way that you-
当然，有很多临床上合法的多动症，但你的方式——
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
Sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
describe the dorsal interior cingulate and the salience network, and this conflict detector of "Am I focusing on something or am I splitting my attention, how distractable am I?" seems to relate to some extent to activity in the anterior cingulate cortex.
描述背侧内部扣带回和显着网络，以及“我是在专注于某件事还是在分散注意力，我有多容易分心？”的冲突检测器。似乎在某种程度上与前扣带皮层的活动有关。
Do people with ADHD display disruptions in elements of these networks, and has hypnosis ever been used to ...
患有多动症的人是否会表现出这些网络元素的破坏，并且催眠曾经被用来......
or self-hypnosis, to distinguish from stage hypnosis, clinical and self-hypnosis has been used to enhance people's ability to focus and hold attention, because that's such a built-in component of the hypnotic state.
或自我催眠，与阶段催眠不同，临床和自我催眠已被用来增强人们集中注意力和保持注意力的能力，因为这是催眠状态的一个内置组成部分。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
It's a great question.
这是一个很好的问题。
There's two ways to think about it.
有两种思考方式。
In terms of enhancing focus, yes, it has been very helpful in teaching people to just prepare your mind, to narrow and then focus on something.
在增强注意力方面，是的，它对于教导人们做好准备、缩小范围然后专注于某件事非常有帮助。
And when you're really engaged in reading something or you're writing a pa ...
当你真正专注于阅读某些东西或正在写一篇论文时......
I mean I'll have that sometimes, I'm thinking, "Oh God, I have to do this for another hour." Other times, an hour will go by and I'll think, "Hey, great," because it feels game-like too.
我的意思是，有时我会这样，我在想，“天啊，我还得再做一个小时。”其他时候，一个小时过去了，我会想，“嘿，太棒了”，因为这也像游戏一样。
You're just assembling the parts of the puzzle and putting them together.
您只需将拼图的各个部分组装起来并将它们组合在一起即可。
It's fun.
很有趣。
You just get absorbed and for me, that's a hypnotic-like experience.
你就会全神贯注，对我来说，这是一种催眠般的体验。
When I'm having trouble, when I'm struggling, sometimes doing things like self-hypnosis can help.
当我遇到麻烦时，当我挣扎时，有时自我催眠之类的事情会有所帮助。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
I'm not an expert on ADHD.
我不是多动症专家。
My impression is that you're right, that these are people who are constantly distracted and rather rigid.
我的印象是，你是对的，这些人总是心烦意乱，而且相当僵化。
The other part of it is they're easily distractable.
另一方面是他们很容易分散注意力。
They're very upset when they get distracted, and they're rather rigid in what they want to attend to and what they can, I think as a way of controlling this distractibility, frankly.
当他们分心时，他们会非常沮丧，而且他们对自己想要做的事情和能做的事情相当严格，坦率地说，我认为这是控制这种分心的一种方式。
My guess is that many people with ADHD would not be that hypnotizable, but I haven't studied it.
我的猜测是，许多患有多动症的人不会那么容易被催眠，但我还没有研究过。
It's possible that for some people with that disorder, training in self-hypnosis might help, but we'd have to see how hypnotizable they were and take it from there.
对于一些患有这种疾病的人来说，自我催眠训练可能会有所帮助，但我们必须了解他们的催眠程度并从那里开始。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I want to return to some of the underlying neural networks and the clinical applications, but what sorts of things aside from the asthma have you used hypnosis successfully for, or have others used clinical hypnosis for?
我想回到一些底层的神经网络和临床应用，但是除了哮喘之外，你还成功地使用过催眠，或者其他人使用过临床催眠来做什么？
And are there any particular areas of psychiatric challenges, or illnesses I guess they're called, that are particularly amenable to hypnotic treatment?
是否有任何特定的精神挑战领域，或者我猜它们被称为疾病，特别适合催眠治疗？
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
Yes, there are.
是的，有。
Hypnosis is very good as a problem-focused treatment.
催眠作为一种以问题为中心的治疗方法非常有效。
Really, it's the oldest Western conception of a psychotherapy, and it can be used for specific problems in a way that's very helpful.
确实，这是西方最古老的心理治疗概念，它可以以非常有帮助的方式用于解决特定问题。
We found it very helpful for stress reduction, for helping people deal.
我们发现它对于减轻压力、帮助人们处理事情非常有帮助。
We're all dealing with stress these days, and that mind-body connection is very helpful because part of the problem with stress is your perception.
如今我们都在应对压力，身心联系非常有帮助，因为压力问题的部分原因在于你的感知。
You mentioned it earlier in a good sense.
您之前提到过这一点是有道理的。
You're at a football game or something, and you feel the physical reaction.
当你在观看一场足球比赛或其他比赛时，你会感受到身体的反应。
That can be a reinforcing thing, "Wow, this is exciting.
这可能是一个强化的事情，“哇，这太令人兴奋了。
Let's do it." It can also be very distracting.
让我们开始吧。”它也可能非常分散注意力。
You're worried about getting COVID, or you're worried about some other physical problem you have, and you notice it in your body.
您担心感染新冠病毒，或者您担心自己有其他一些身体问题，并且您注意到身体有这些问题。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
Your body tenses up.
你的身体紧张起来。
You start to sweat.
你开始出汗。
The sympathetic nervous system goes, your heart rate goes up.
交感神经系统运转，你的心率上升。
And when you notice that, you think, "Oh God, this is really bad," and then you feel worse.
当你注意到这一点时，你会想，“天哪，这真的很糟糕”，然后你感觉更糟。
It's like a snowball rolling downhill, and then you feel worse, and then your body gets worse.
就像一个雪球滚下山，然后你感觉更糟，然后你的身体也变得更糟。
Hypnosis can be very helpful in dissociating somatic reaction from psychological reactions.
催眠对于区分躯体反应和心理反应非常有帮助。
We teach people to imagine their body floating somewhere safe and comfortable like a bath or like a hot tub, or floating in space.
我们教人们想象他们的身体漂浮在安全舒适的地方，比如浴缸或热水浴缸，或者漂浮在太空中。
And then picture the problem that's stressing them on an imaginary screen, with the rule that no matter what you see on the screen, you keep your body comfortable.
然后在想象的屏幕上想象给他们带来压力的问题，规则是无论你在屏幕上看到什么，你都要保持身体舒适。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
At this point, you still can't control the stress, but you can control your physical reaction to it.
此时，你仍然无法控制压力，但你可以控制你对压力的身体反应。
And that starts you feeling more in control.
这会让你感觉更有掌控力。
At least there's one thing I can manage, and then you can use it to think through or visualize through one thing you might do about that stressor.
至少我可以处理一件事，然后你可以用它来思考或想象你可以对压力源做的一件事。
Hypnosis is very helpful in controlling mind-body interaction in relation to stress.
催眠对于控制与压力相关的身心互动非常有帮助。
It's very helpful for people to get to sleep.
对于人们的睡眠有很大的帮助。
We're having a lot of fun with that.
我们对此很感兴趣。
I'm getting emails from people who said, "I haven't slept right in 15 years.
我收到一些人发来的电子邮件，他们说：“我已经 15 年没有睡过好觉了。
And now for the first time, I'm listening to your app and I can sleep at night." It's very helpful.
现在，我第一次在听你的应用程序，我可以在晚上睡觉了。”这非常有帮助。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
And again, if you wake up in the middle of the night, I tell people, "Don't look at the clock.
再说一遍，如果你半夜醒来，我会告诉人们，“不要看时钟。
That's an arousal cue.
这是一种兴奋暗示。
You'll just wake up more, but picture whatever you're thinking about or worrying about on that imaginary screen, while your body's floating.
你会醒来更多，但当你的身体漂浮时，在想象的屏幕上想象你正在思考或担心的任何事情。
So, watch your own movie, but keep your body floating." And many people can use that to get back to sleep.
所以，看你自己的电影，但保持你的身体漂浮。”许多人可以用它来重新入睡。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I've been using the self-hypnosis for sleep for a long time, and now the Reveri app.
我长期以来一直使用自我催眠来睡眠，现在使用 Reveri 应用程序。
And we'll talk about our relationship to the Reveri app and its uses.
我们将讨论我们与 Reveri 应用程序的关系及其用途。
I find it incredibly useful for falling back asleep in the middle of the night.
我发现它对于半夜重新入睡非常有用。
And it raises a question I've found, and I think I understand this correctly that one can do self-hypnosis during the daytime and ...
它提出了我发现的一个问题，我想我正确地理解了这一点，一个人可以在白天进行自我催眠并且......
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do self-hypnosis during the daytime and then if there's an issue that comes up later.
白天进行自我催眠，然后在以后出现问题时进行自我催眠。
So for instance, do self-hypnosis for stress reduction away from the stressful event to prepare one to deal with stress better or do hypnosis for improving the return to sleep.
例如，进行自我催眠以减轻压力，远离压力事件，为更好地应对压力做好准备，或者进行催眠以改善睡眠恢复。
And that can be done when you actually want to go to sleep.
当您确实想睡觉时可以这样做。
But it's kind of a training up of these networks.
但这是对这些网络的一种训练。
Right?
正确的？
That's right.
这是正确的。
Is there evidence that these brain networks actually form stronger connections when people do self-hypnosis over time?
是否有证据表明，当人们随着时间的推移进行自我催眠时，这些大脑网络实际上会形成更牢固的连接？
PART 1 OF 4 ENDS David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔 (David Spiegel) 第 1 部分结尾：
Well, there's a rule in neurobiology, as you know, the neurons that fire together wire together.
嗯，正如你所知，神经生物学中有一条规则，一起放电的神经元连接在一起。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Our friend Carla.
我们的朋友卡拉。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
Yeah, Carla.
是的，卡拉。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Not Donald Hebb, by the way.
顺便说一句，不是唐纳德·赫布。
I keep trying to ...
我一直在努力...
There's a widespread myth in the world that is unfortunately all over the internet, which is that the "fire together, wired together" was said by the psychologist Donald Hebb.
世界上有一个广为流传的神话，不幸的是，这个神话遍布互联网，心理学家唐纳德·赫布（Donald Hebb）说过“火在一起，连在一起”。
Donald did many important things, but it is the neurobiologist Carla Shatz.
唐纳德做了很多重要的事情，但它是神经生物学家卡拉·沙茨。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
That's exactly right.
完全正确。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yes.
是的。
Is at Stanford, but was also at Berkeley and Harvard-
在斯坦福大学，但也在伯克利分校和哈佛大学——
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
also decent schools — but is at Stanford, who said, "fire together, wired together." And so, she deserves the credit for that statement.
也是不错的学校——但在斯坦福大学，他说，“一起火，一起连接”。因此，她的这句话值得称赞。
So with repeated use of self-hypnosis, one could imagine that these networks are getting stronger.
因此，通过反复使用自我催眠，人们可以想象这些网络会变得越来越强大。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
I would think so.
我也这么认为。
We don't have evidence of that yet, but long-term potentiation provides a pathway, and you've described them on your program a number of times, that allow for repeated activation of a network to actually build new connections that work.
我们还没有证据证明这一点，但长期增强提供了一条途径，并且您已经在程序中多次描述了它们，允许重复激活网络以实际建立有效的新连接。
And at the least, even from a learning and memory point of view, our memory is all a network of associations.
至少，即使从学习和记忆的角度来看，我们的记忆也是一个联想网络。
That's how we remember things.
这就是我们记忆事物的方式。
And the example I'd like to give is you go back to your grade school and you see these little tiny lockers and the size is all wrong and you suddenly have a flood of memories that you ...
我想举的例子是，你回到你的小学，你看到这些小小的储物柜，尺寸全错了，你突然有大量的回忆，你......
were obviously stored there but you just didn't think of.
显然存储在那里，但你只是没有想到。
So context and association is what memory's about.
所以上下文和联想就是记忆的意义所在。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
If you start to acquire memories about a problem.
如果你开始获得关于某个问题的记忆。
So one thing we use hypnosis for is treating phobias, for example.
例如，我们使用催眠的一件事就是治疗恐惧症。
And the problem with people who have phobias like airplane phobias or crossing a bridge or being up high, is that the more they avoid it, the more the only source of associations and memories is their fear.
对于患有飞机恐惧症、过桥恐惧症或高处恐惧症等恐惧症的人来说，问题在于，他们越是回避这些恐惧症，联想和记忆的唯一来源就越是他们的恐惧。
They don't have any good experiences with it because they avoid it.
他们对此没有任何好的经验，因为他们回避它。
It's like get back on the horse after you fall off kind of thing.
这就像你摔倒后重新骑上马一样。
And with hypnosis, if you can start people able to manage their anxiety enough that they can have a wider array of experiences, they start to have a network of associations that isn't so negative and may even be positive.
通过催眠，如果你能让人们能够足够地控制他们的焦虑，使他们能够获得更广泛的体验，他们就会开始拥有一个不那么消极、甚至可能是积极的联想网络。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So it's almost like a ...
所以这几乎就像是...
Sorry to interrupt but I have to ask, it's almost like an exposure therapy done in the mind.
抱歉打扰，但我不得不问，这几乎就像在头脑中进行的暴露疗法。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I mean it's always in the mind.
我的意思是它总是在心里。
I mean even exposure to, if I have a snake phobia, which I don't like snakes, but I don't think it qualifies as a full-blown phobia.
我的意思是，如果我有蛇恐惧症，我不喜欢蛇，但我不认为它符合全面的恐惧症。
I think I have a healthy fear of snakes.
我想我对蛇有一种健康的恐惧。
But if, let's say I had a snake phobia, the typical approach would be ...
但如果，假设我有蛇恐惧症，典型的方法是......
cognitive behavioral approaches would be to show a picture of a snake or then a rubber snake, then a real snake.
认知行为方法是先展示蛇的图片，然后展示橡胶蛇，然后展示真正的蛇。
Eventually the person is holding a boa constrictor or something like that.
最终，这个人拿着一条蟒蛇或类似的东西。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's all in the mind because it's all translated into nervous system signals.
这一切都在头脑中，因为它都被转化为神经系统信号。
But with hypnosis, it sounds like you can give a number of positive experiences without having to use any props, without having to bring any animals into the room.
但通过催眠，听起来你可以提供许多积极的体验，而无需使用任何道具，无需将任何动物带入房间。
Drive someone across the bridge.
开车送人过桥。
Is that right?
是这样吗？
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
Yes.
是的。
I had a woman who was a very successful business woman, high level in a corporation, had a terrible dog phobia.
我有一个女人，她是一位非常成功的女商人，在一家公司担任高层职务，但她有严重的狗恐惧症。
And so I had her imagine that somebody brought in the dog to the room and I said, "What are you doing?" And you could see her getting tense.
所以我让她想象有人把狗带进房间，我说：“你在做什么？”你可以看到她变得紧张。
And she said, "Well I'm waiting to see what the dog does." And I said, "If somebody who works for you comes into your office, would you freeze and wait to see what they did?" And she said, "Of course not.
她说：“好吧，我等着看那只狗会做什么。”我说：“如果为你工作的人走进你的办公室，你会呆呆地等着看他们做了什么吗？”她说：“当然不是。
And I tell them what to do." And I said, "Well, so you were immobilizing yourself.
我告诉他们该怎么做。”我说：“好吧，所以你把自己固定住了。
The power isn't with the dog, it's with you.
力量不在于狗，而在于你。
So imagine what you might do to engage the dog and help control the situation." And she said thanks.
所以想象一下你可以做些什么来吸引狗并帮助控制局势。”她说谢谢。
And this reminds me of one of my favorite stories about hypnosis, that my father was seeing a woman who lived in midtown Manhattan and had a horrible dog phobia.
这让我想起了我最喜欢的一个关于催眠的故事，我父亲正在看一位住在曼哈顿市中心的女人，她患有可怕的狗恐惧症。
She'd drop things, she'd spill coffee if she saw a dog; she would time her trips to the store when she thought it was least likely that people would be walking dogs.
如果她看到一只狗，她会摔东西，会洒咖啡；当她认为人们最不可能遛狗时，她就会安排去商店的时间。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Now that wouldn't be possible.
现在那是不可能的了。
It's like a fleet of French bulldogs taking over New York City.
这就像一群法国斗牛犬占领了纽约市。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
So he taught her to think of a dog as a friend, have a neighbor who had a dog bring the dog over but hold the dog by the collar and make sure.
所以他教她把狗当作朋友，让养狗的邻居把狗带过来，但抓住狗的项圈并确保。
And gradually she was able to stroke the dog and say, dog friend, and distinguish between wild and tame animals.
渐渐地，她能够抚摸狗并说“狗朋友”，并能区分野生动物和驯养动物。
There are animals you should be afraid of.
有些动物你应该害怕。
So she seemed to be doing better.
所以她看起来做得更好了。
He called back about three months later and asked for her, and said, "Well who's calling?" The son said, "Dr. Spiegel." And the boy said, "That's weird." And my father said, "What's weird?" He said, "Spiegel's in heat." She had bought a dog.
大约三个月后，他回电话询问她，并说：“谁打来的电话？”儿子说：“斯皮格尔博士。”男孩说：“这很奇怪。”我父亲说：“有什么奇怪的吗？”他说：“斯皮格尔发情了。”她买了一只狗。
And named it Spiegel.
并将其命名为斯皮格尔。
Talk about transference.
谈论移情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I love it.
我喜欢它。
But, it really speaks to the power of this, and it brings me back to this issue.
但是，它确实说明了它的力量，它让我回到了这个问题。
So what is different about what your father did in that case with this woman in terms of what happened in hypnosis that allowed her to go from being completely terrified of dogs to owning a dog and naming it after your father, which I find amusing, but that's different than just the two of them sitting down and talking about it in therapy.
那么，在这种情况下，你父亲对这个女人所做的事情有什么不同，在催眠中发生的事情让她从完全害怕狗变成拥有一只狗，并以你父亲的名字命名它，我觉得这很有趣，但这与他们两个在治疗中坐下来谈论它不同。
The narrative is a huge component.
叙事是一个巨大的组成部分。
And in hypnosis narrative is a huge component.
在催眠中，叙事是一个重要的组成部分。
So it must be that the brain state is what is really different because we'll talk about trauma in a few minutes, but I think people who have trauma or phobias certainly could have a conversation about it.
因此，大脑状态一定是真正不同的，因为我们将在几分钟内讨论创伤，但我认为患有创伤或恐惧症的人肯定可以谈论它。
Some of them might freeze up, some of them might lose their articulation and so forth.
其中一些可能会冻结，一些可能会失去关节等等。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But what is different about that state that combines with narrative, you think, to allow these underlying neural networks to engage her to change?
但你认为，这种与叙事相结合的状态有什么不同，可以让这些潜在的神经网络促使她做出改变？
'Cause I find this so fascinating because we're all, every attempt at dealing with stress or phobia in the clinical setting involves some discussion about what it is.
因为我发现这非常令人着迷，因为我们所有人在临床环境中处理压力或恐惧症的每一次尝试都涉及到关于它是什么的一些讨论。
Yes.
是的。
But here we're not talking about any medication being introduced, at least not in these particular circumstances.
但在这里我们并不是在谈论任何正在引入的药物，至少不是在这些特殊情况下。
So I realize it's kind of an obvious question.
所以我意识到这是一个显而易见的问题。
It has to be some difference in brain activity.
大脑活动一定有一些差异。
But I find that to be incredible.
但我觉得这太不可思议了。
The control variable there is the brain state.
控制变量是大脑状态。
It's not what's spoken.
这不是说出来的。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
You're raising a couple of very important issues, Andrew.
安德鲁，你提出了几个非常重要的问题。
We talked earlier about systematic desensitization, where you sort of layout of hierarchy of things and do it one at a time.
我们之前讨论过系统脱敏，即对事物的层次结构进行布局，然后一次只做一个。
I think of this as unsystematic desensitization because you're changing mental states, and I think there's more and more evidence that mental state change, itself, has therapeutic potential.
我认为这是非系统性脱敏，因为你正在改变精神状态，而且我认为越来越多的证据表明精神状态改变本身具有治疗潜力。
We're seeing that with ketamine treating depression, a dissociagenic drug.
我们在治疗抑郁症的氯胺酮（一种解离药物）中看到了这一点。
We see it.
我们看到了。
We know it every morning when we wake up.
我们每天早上醒来时都知道这一点。
That problem, you know, made the mistake of reading a nasty email at 11:00 p.m.
你知道，这个问题是在晚上 11:00 阅读一封令人讨厌的电子邮件时犯的错误。
you don't know what to do.
你不知道该怎么办。
You wake up in the morning think, "Oh that idiot.
你早上醒来时会想：“哦，那个白痴。
Yeah, here's what I'm going to do." So just changing mental state itself has therapeutic potential, and I think we underestimate our ability to regulate and change responses to be cognitively, emotionally and somatically flexible.
是的，这就是我要做的。”因此，仅仅改变精神状态本身就具有治疗潜力，我认为我们低估了我们调节和改变反应以使其在认知、情感和躯体上变得灵活的能力。
And so we do things, you're right, that follow similar principles of facing a problem, seeing it from a different point of view.
所以我们做事，你是对的，遵循类似的原则来面对问题，从不同的角度看待它。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
And you've done a really a nice podcast on trauma and stress and how you have to expose yourself to it, not avoid it as we talked about before, and then find some way to reconnect to it, to substitute something that can make you feel good rather than bad so that you activate other centers of the brain like mesolimbic reward system.
你做了一个非常好的播客，关于创伤和压力，以及如何让自己暴露在它面前，而不是像我们之前讨论的那样避免它，然后找到某种方法重新连接它，用一些能让你感觉良好而不是糟糕的东西来替代，这样你就可以激活大脑的其他中心，比如中脑边缘奖励系统。
And so I do that with hypnosis, and you can do it much faster.
所以我用催眠来做到这一点，你可以做得更快。
People don't think they can, but they can.
人们不认为他们可以，但他们可以。
If you are having right now that physical experience, "I'm thinking about this but I'm not feeling as bad as I used to." That can be a powerful thing.
如果你现在正在经历这种身体体验，“我正在考虑这个，但我感觉不像以前那么糟糕了。”这可能是一件很强大的事情。
And you can do it with hypnosis.
你可以通过催眠来做到这一点。
So I had a woman came to see me who had suffered an attempted rape; it was getting dark.
于是我请了一位遭受强奸未遂的女士来看我。天快黑了。
She was coming back from the grocery store and this guy grabs her and wants to get her up into her apartment.
她从杂货店回来，这个家伙抓住了她，想把她带进公寓。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
It's outside of her apartment.
这是她的公寓外面。
And she starts fighting with him and she winds up with a basilar skull fracture.
她开始与他打架，最终导致颅底骨折。
He runs away, the cops come.
他逃跑了，警察来了。
Since she hadn't been raped, they left, they weren't interested, and she wanted to use hypnosis to get a better image of what this guy looked like, which is a painful, upsetting thing.
既然她没有被强奸，他们就离开了，他们不感兴趣，她想通过催眠来更好地了解这个家伙的样子，这是一件痛苦、不安的事情。
So she was quite hypnotizable.
所以说，她是非常容易被催眠的。
I got her floating.
我让她漂浮起来。
I say, "You're safe and comfortable now; nothing can happen that will harm your body.
我说：“你现在很安全、很舒服；不会发生任何伤害你身体的事情。
But on the left side of the screen, I want you to picture this guy and his approaching and what's happening." And she said, "Really the light was, it was getting dark.
但在屏幕的左侧，我希望你想象这个家伙和他的接近以及正在发生的事情。”她说：“确实，天已经黑了。
I really can't see much of his facial features, but I do recognize something I hadn't allowed myself to remember.
我确实看不清他的面部特征，但我确实认出了一些我不允许自己记住的东西。
If he gets me upstairs, he doesn't just want to rape me, he's going to kill me."
如果他把我带到楼上，他不仅想强奸我，他还会杀了我。”
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
And so in some ways what she was seeing was even worse.
因此，从某些方面来说，她所看到的情况甚至更糟。
So you're thinking, "Good, Spiegel, you made her even more frightened than she was before." But as you had pointed out in your PTSD stress lecture, you've got to confront the trauma to restructure your understanding of it.
所以你会想，“很好，斯皮格尔，你让她比以前更害怕了。”但正如您在创伤后应激障碍（PTSD）压力讲座中指出的那样，您必须面对创伤才能重建您对它的理解。
So on the other side of the screen, I had her picture, "What are you doing to protect yourself?" And everybody in a trauma situation engages in some strategy of self-protection.
所以在屏幕的另一边，我有她的照片，“你在做什么来保护自己？”每个遭受创伤的人都会采取一些自我保护策略。
That's the salient network kicking in.
这就是显着网络的作用。
And she said, "You know what?
她说：“你知道吗？
He's surprised that I'm fighting that hard.
他对我如此努力地战斗感到惊讶。
He didn't think I would." And so she realized on the one hand that it was even worse than she thought it was.
他认为我不会。”因此，她一方面意识到事情比她想象的还要糟糕。
But on the other hand that she actually probably saved her life.
但另一方面，她实际上可能救了她的命。
And so it was a way of helping her restructure her experience of the trauma and make it more tolerable, so that helped with her.
因此，这是帮助她重建创伤经历并使其更容易忍受的一种方式，从而对她有所帮助。
She didn't recognize ...
她没认出……
She couldn't identify the guy, but it helped her restructure and understand her experience.
她无法辨认出这个人的身份，但这帮助她重新构建并理解了自己的经历。
And that's something that you can do in just talking, straight -out psychotherapy.
这就是你可以通过谈话、直接的心理治疗来做到的。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
But sometimes you can do a hell of a lot faster and more efficiently using hypnosis.
但有时使用催眠可以更快、更有效地完成任务。
And there is one randomized trial out of Israel that shows that adding hypnosis to PTSD treatment actually improves outcome.
以色列的一项随机试验表明，在 PTSD 治疗中加入催眠实际上可以改善治疗效果。
So it's a way of accomplishing things that we understand in the broader psychotherapy world, but much more quickly and sometimes effectively.
因此，这是一种我们在更广泛的心理治疗领域所理解的完成事情的方法，但速度更快，有时甚至更有效。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, it sounds like going into somewhat, into the state that one is trying to deal with, but then dissociating from that state is key.
是的，这听起来像是进入了某种程度，进入了一个人试图处理的状态，但随后脱离该状态是关键。
And I could imagine, and I've been open about this on various podcasts, I've done a lot of analysis over the years, but I've experienced myself that in those sessions, depending on how I show up to them, I might just get in kind of a laundry list of what happened as opposed to actually feeling anything around what happened.
我可以想象，我在各种播客上对此持开放态度，多年来我做了很多分析，但我自己经历过，在这些会议中，根据我向他们展示的方式，我可能只是得到了所发生的事情的详细清单，而不是真正感受到所发生的事情。
And I think people probably vary in the extent to which they can drop into feeling states.
我认为人们陷入情感状态的程度可能有所不同。
And it can depend on the day, it can depend on how well you slept the night before and so on.
这可能取决于当天，也可能取决于您前一天晚上的睡眠质量等等。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
There's one thing I might add, Andrew, and that is there's a notion ...
安德鲁，我可以补充一件事，那就是有一个概念......
the late Gordon Bower, we just had a memorial for Gordon at Stanford.
已故的戈登·鲍尔，我们刚刚在斯坦福大学为戈登举行了纪念活动。
He died about a year ago.
他大约一年前去世了。
Brilliant cognitive psychologist.
杰出的认知心理学家。
One of the founders of cognitive psychology at Stanford and a great pitcher — he almost became a major league pitcher, but he decided to go to grad school instead.
斯坦福大学认知心理学的创始人之一，也是一位伟大的投手——他差点成为一名大联盟投手，但他决定去读研究生。
And I'm glad he did.
我很高兴他做到了。
But Gordon helped establish the concept of state-dependent memory.
但戈登帮助建立了状态依赖记忆的概念。
That when you're in a certain mental state, you enhance your ability to remember things about it.
当你处于某种精神状态时，你记住该状态的能力就会增强。
And the bad example of that is the drunk who hides the bottle and can't remember where he put it until he gets drunk again.
一个糟糕的例子是，醉酒的人把瓶子藏了起来，直到他再次喝醉时才想起他把它放在哪里。
That he's in that same mental state.
他也处于同样的精神状态。
People go into dissociative states when they're traumatized.
当人们受到创伤时，他们会进入分离状态。
So in a way, hypnosis is helping them remember and deal with the memories better because they're more in the mental state that is more like what happened.
因此，在某种程度上，催眠可以帮助他们更好地记住和处理记忆，因为他们的精神状态更接近所发生的事情。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
And most rape victims will tell you, "I was floating above my body, feeling sorry for the woman being assaulted below." People in traumatic episodes, they just say, "I blank out, I don't know what's happening.
大多数强奸受害者会告诉你，“我漂浮在我的身体上方，为下面被袭击的女人感到难过。”经历创伤事件的人，他们只会说：“我一片空白，我不知道发生了什么。
I'm on autopilot." And that's a kind of self-hypnotic state.
我处于自动驾驶状态。”这就是一种自我催眠状态。
So when you use hypnosis to help them deal with the traumatic memory, you're making the state they're in right there in your office with you more congruent to the state they were likely in when the trauma happened.
因此，当你使用催眠来帮助他们处理创伤记忆时，你就让他们在你办公室里的状态与创伤发生时他们可能所处的状态更加一致。
And I think that is part of what helps facilitate treatment of trauma-related disorders.
我认为这有助于促进创伤相关疾病的治疗。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I see.
我明白了。
So that makes me have to ask, every question I have to ask because I really feel it as almost a compulsion, then if dissociation during a traumatic episode is part, it's a part of the adaptive strategy, but it creates certain issues, it creates problems.
所以这让我不得不问，我必须问的每个问题，因为我真的觉得这几乎是一种强迫，那么如果创伤事件期间的分离是一部分，它是适应性策略的一部分，但它会产生某些问题，它会产生问题。
Why would something like ketamine, which creates a dissociative state, be useful for the treatment of trauma?
为什么像氯胺酮这样能产生解离状态的东西对治疗创伤有用？
This is what I'm confused about these days because our colleague Karl Deisseroth, who's also been on this podcast, and his coworkers have figured out, okay, there's these layer one networks in the neocortex and those are involved in dissociative state.
这就是我这些天感到困惑的地方，因为我们的同事卡尔·戴瑟罗斯（Karl Deisseroth）也参加了这个播客，他的同事们已经发现，好吧，新皮质中有这些第一层网络，这些网络与解离状态有关。
And so we're starting to gain some understanding of how ketamine works at a neural level.
因此，我们开始对氯胺酮在神经水平上的作用有了一些了解。
It does seem as if for certain populations, it can be a useful treatment.
对于某些人群来说，这似乎确实是一种有用的治疗方法。
I don't know.
我不知道。
I've never tried it.
我从来没有尝试过。
I don't know what the current status of that is, but it is legal.
我不知道现在的情况如何，但它是合法的。
It is allowed, at least it's FDA approved and it's in use.
这是允许的，至少它已经获得 FDA 批准并且正在使用。
Why would dissociative states be useful if some element of dissociation is what gave rise to the trauma memory in the first place?
如果分离状态的某些因素首先引起了创伤记忆，那么为什么分离状态会有用呢？
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
Well yeah, Karl had a brilliant paper in Nature, where it was from rats to humans in one paper.
是的，卡尔在《自然》杂志上发表了一篇精彩的论文，其中一篇论文介绍了从老鼠到人类。
And he showed that there's this rhythmic discharge in the retrosplenial region that is associated, that is triggered by ketamine.
他表明，压后区域有这种有节奏的放电，这是由氯胺酮触发的。
And the rats actually showed dissociative-like behavior in that they would touch a hot pad that they ordinarily wouldn't and they didn't seem to have much pain in their paw.
老鼠实际上表现出了类似解离的行为，因为它们会触摸通常不会的热垫，而且它们的爪子似乎没有太大疼痛。
And he then had a male subject who had implanted electrodes — human, a human subject, human subject.
然后他有一个植入电极的男性受试者——人类，人类受试者，人类受试者。
And the electrodes had picked up this rhythmic activity and when they did, he would report being in a dissociative state.
电极捕捉到了这种有节奏的活动，当它们捕捉到时，他会报告处于解离状态。
And his description was,"It's like being the pilot of an airplane.
他的描述是，“这就像成为一架飞机的飞行员。
And then I felt myself walking out of the cockpit and the plane was still flying and ...
然后我感觉自己走出驾驶舱，飞机仍在飞行......
"
”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It sounds terrifying to me.
这对我来说听起来很可怕。
It sounds terrify terrifying.
听起来就很恐怖很恐怖。
I want to be in my body most of the time.
我大部分时间都想在自己的身体里。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
That's right.
没错。
But the point is, in a way, the principle, Andrew, is like the principle you said that you need to confront a traumatic situation before you can modulate your associations to it.
但重点是，在某种程度上，安德鲁，这个原则就像你所说的，你需要面对创伤性的情况，然后才能调整你的联想。
So you have to accept it, accept the arousal, put some boundaries around it, and then figure out how you can approach that problem or how you did approach that problem from a different point of view.
所以你必须接受它，接受这种兴奋，在它周围划定一些界限，然后弄清楚你可以如何解决这个问题，或者你是如何从不同的角度解决这个问题的。
So it does not surprise, in fact, we've studied people who dissociated during the Loma Prieta earthquake and the Oakland Berkeley firestorm.
因此，事实上，我们研究了洛马普列塔地震和奥克兰伯克利大火期间精神分裂的人，这并不奇怪。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I remember both those well.
这两件事我都记得很清楚。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
Yeah, yeah.
是啊，是啊。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Earthquakes follow me.
地震跟着我。
And then I moved south and then the Northridge quake hit.
然后我向南移动，然后北岭地震发生了。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
I'm going to keep away from you.
我要远离你。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So there'll be one layer this afternoon.
所以今天下午会有一层。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
I'm starting to dissociate.
我开始分裂了。
And so dissociation does compartmentalize experience, but that means from the point of view of treating trauma, it's an inhibition.
因此，解离确实划分了经验，但这意味着从治疗创伤的角度来看，这是一种抑制。
You don't engage it.
你不参与它。
It's like it happened over there.
就好像事情发生在那边一样。
And I think what happens is that people are sometimes too good at being able to separate themselves from the recollection.
我认为，人们有时太善于将自己从回忆中分离出来。
So it's in there somewhere.
所以它就在那里的某个地方。
It doesn't ...
它不...
it's out of sight, but it's not out of mind.
它是看不见的，但它并不是心不在焉的。
It's having effects on you, but you can't deal with it.
它对你产生影响，但你无法应对。
You can't reprocess it.
你无法重新处理它。
So I do think one reason ketamine might work is that in fact it allows you to keep, to reapproach the dissociative experience in a way that you can then start to think about and do something about it.
所以我确实认为氯胺酮可能起作用的一个原因是，事实上它可以让你以一种可以开始思考并采取行动的方式保留、重新接近解离体验。
And just the fact you can turn it on and off.
事实上，您可以打开和关闭它。
And that's also where self-hypnosis is so helpful.
这也是自我催眠如此有用的地方。
It's not something that just comes over you and happens to you.
这不是突然发生在你身上的事情。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
It's something you can make happen.
这是你可以实现的事情。
You can control it, you can do something with it.
你可以控制它，你可以用它做一些事情。
So you feel less helpless and out of control.
这样你就不会感到那么无助和失控。
The essence of trauma is helplessness.
创伤的本质是无助。
It's not fear, it's not pain, it's helplessness.
这不是恐惧，不是痛苦，而是无助。
You become an object, you become just your body.
你变成了一个物体，你变成了你的身体。
You don't control what's going on.
你无法控制正在发生的事情。
And we're not used to that.
我们对此并不习惯。
And I've discussed this breathing paper on anticipation of breathing.
我已经讨论了这篇关于呼吸预期的呼吸论文。
And it's not whether you breathe, inhale or exhale or hold your breath, it's that if you think you can inhale and you can't, that is really upsetting, understandably.
重要的不是你是否呼吸、吸气、呼气或屏住呼吸，而是如果你认为你可以吸气但你不能吸气，那确实令人沮丧，这是可以理解的。
And so it's.
确实如此。
the issue is control, and hypnosis, which has this terrible reputation of taking away control, is actually a superb way of enhancing your control over mind body.
问题在于控制，而催眠虽然有着夺走控制的可怕名声，但实际上是增强你对身心控制的绝佳方法。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I love that.
我喜欢那个。
And it reminds me that naming is so important.
它提醒我命名是如此重要。
You almost wonder if self-hypnosis and clinical hypnosis had been called something else, that it would've been separated out from stage hypnosis in a way that would make it less scary, weird, complicated for people to embrace.
你几乎想知道自我催眠和临床催眠是否被称为其他东西，它会以某种方式与阶段催眠分开，从而使人们接受起来不那么可怕、奇怪和复杂。
But yeah, part of the reason for having this discussion is I've had great experiences with hypnosis.
但是，是的，进行这次讨论的部分原因是我在催眠方面拥有丰富的经验。
I've seen the data.
我看过数据。
We're talking about a lot of clinical examples.
我们正在谈论很多临床例子。
It's incredibly powerful and it boils right down to neural brain states.
它非常强大，并且可以归结为神经大脑状态。
And I think in the years to come it's going to become more widespread.
我认为在未来的几年里它会变得更加普遍。
Along those lines, how quickly, you've described some examples of people getting relief very quickly.
沿着这些思路，你描述了一些人们很快得到缓解的例子。
How permanent are those changes?
这些变化有多持久？
Is there a need for follow up?
是否需要跟进？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And related to that, I'm sure a number of people are listening to this and thinking, "Wonderful, I'd love to get hypnotized for any number of different things by Dr. Spiegel or somebody else, expert in clinical hypnosis," but they might not have access to you or somebody with similar training.
与此相关的是，我确信很多人正在听这个并想，“太棒了，我很乐意接受斯皮格尔博士或其他临床催眠专家的任何不同事物的催眠”，但他们可能无法接触到您或接受过类似培训的人。
So what is the power?
那么威力是什么呢？
So how quickly does it work?
那么它的工作速度有多快呢？
How long-lasting are those changes?
这些变化能持续多久？
And then is it necessary to work with a clinical hypnotist and is it better to do that than self-hypnosis, and so on and so forth.
然后是否有必要与临床催眠师合作，这样做比自我催眠更好，等等。
Maybe you could just give us a contour of the landscape of directed and self-directed treatment.
也许你可以向我们介绍一下定向和自我定向治疗的轮廓。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
Well typically, most people start by coming to see a clinician like me.
一般来说，大多数人都是先来看像我这样的临床医生。
It's better to see someone who has licensing and training in their professional discipline, medicine, psychology, dentistry, whatever.
最好找一个在其专业学科、医学、心理学、牙科等方面拥有执照和培训的人。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because there are a lot of hypnotists out there who are just hypnotist.
因为有很多催眠师只是催眠师。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
Just hypnotist.
只是催眠师。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, okay.
哦，好吧。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
And the key issue is somebody who can really assess what your problem is and make sure that you're not talking someone into reducing their chest pain rather than getting their coronary artery problem.
关键问题是有人能够真正评估您的问题所在，并确保您不会说服某人减轻胸痛而不是患上冠状动脉问题。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because they could have a real issue there.
因为他们可能会遇到真正的问题。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
They could, right.
他们可以，对吧。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That hypnosis might adjust, but wouldn't deal with the deeper underlying issue.
这种催眠可能会调整，但无法解决更深层次的根本问题。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
That's right.
没错。
On the other hand, and typically when I use it with people, I often only see them once or twice or periodically, but not every week.
另一方面，通常当我与人一起使用它时，我经常只见到他们一两次或定期，但不是每周。
And certainly not every day.
当然不是每天。
If they have a pain problem, hypnosis is very helpful for pain.
如果他们有疼痛问题，催眠对于缓解疼痛非常有帮助。
And so what I'm doing is identifying how hypnotizable they are.
所以我正在做的就是确定他们有多容易被催眠。
I give them a standard brief test of their ability to experience hypnosis and then going through a self-hypnosis exercise with them to deal with the problem, seeing how they respond to it and then teaching them how to do it for themselves.
我给他们一个标准的简短测试，测试他们体验催眠的能力，然后与他们一起进行自我催眠练习来处理问题，看看他们对此有何反应，然后教他们如何自己做。
And in the old days I used to have them use their iPhone and record that part of the session so they could play back the hypnosis experience.
过去，我常常让他们使用 iPhone 记录这部分过程，这样他们就可以回放催眠体验。
Now we've developed an app that can teach people and step them through dealing with pain, stress, focus, insomnia and help people eat better and stop smoking and both.
现在，我们开发了一款应用程序，可以教导人们并引导他们应对疼痛、压力、注意力集中、失眠，并帮助人们吃得更好、戒烟等等。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
We have elements that take about 15 minutes and elements that just take one or two minutes that people can refresh and reinforce.
我们有一些需要大约 15 分钟的元素，也有一些只需要一两分钟的元素，人们可以通过这些元素来刷新和强化。
And it's one to two minutes now.
现在是一到两分钟。
And we're finding that two thirds of the people find it, even just the one-minute refresher helps them feel better.
我们发现三分之二的人发现了这一点，即使只是一分钟的复习也能帮助他们感觉更好。
They're reporting they feel better.
他们报告说他们感觉好多了。
So the nice thing is right away whether it's likely to help you or not.
因此，无论是否对您有帮助，最好的事情就是马上。
And we've found, we've done studies looking at hypnosis for pain relief in acute medical procedures.
我们发现，我们已经进行了研究，探讨催眠在紧急医疗过程中缓解疼痛的作用。
We did a randomized trial that we published in the Lancet, three conditions, people getting arterial cutdowns to chemo-embolized tumors in the liver or visualized renal artery stenosis.
我们做了一项随机试验，发表在《柳叶刀》上，针对三种情况，人们对肝脏中的化疗栓塞肿瘤进行动脉切除，或观察到肾动脉狭窄。
You don't use general anesthesia for this.
您不需要为此使用全身麻醉。
It's very uncomfortable and people are anxious.
这是非常不舒服的，人们很焦虑。
And we had three conditions.
我们有三个条件。
One was standard care.
一是标准护理。
They could push a button and get opioids, IV.
他们可以按下按钮并获得阿片类药物，静脉注射。
During the surgery.
手术期间。
The second is they could do that.
第二是他们可以做到这一点。
Plus they had a friendly nurse comforting them.
另外，他们还有一位友善的护士来安慰他们。
So we controlled for pleasant attention and support.
因此，我们控制了令人愉快的关注和支持。
And the third was we taught themself hypnosis for pain control.
第三是我们自学催眠来控制疼痛。
So you're feeling you can change the temperature, your body is cool, tingling and numb, you're floating in ice water and feeling comfortable or go somewhere else, leave your body here and go to a desert island and enjoy yourself.
所以你感觉你可以改变温度，你的身体很凉爽，刺痛和麻木，你漂浮在冰水中，感觉很舒服或者去别的地方，把你的身体留在这里，去荒岛享受自己。
And we found that it's about two-and-a-half hour procedure, that by an hour and a half, the hypnosis group had reduced their pain by 80%, compared to the standard care group, using half the amount of opioids.
我们发现整个过程大约需要两个半小时，在一个半小时内，催眠组的疼痛减轻了 80%，而标准护理组则使用了一半的阿片类药物。
They had fewer complications and the procedure took 17 minutes less time on average to get done because not only was the patient more relaxed, so was the treatment staff, they weren't dealing with someone who's struggling and uncomfortable.
他们的并发症较少，手术完成时间平均缩短了 17 分钟，因为不仅患者更加放松，治疗人员也更加放松，他们面对的不是那些挣扎和不舒服的人。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
We measured their anxiety.
我们测量了他们的焦虑程度。
And same thing, the hypnosis group, I was worried they were all dead, They had no anxiety.
同样的事情，催眠组，我担心他们都死了，他们没有焦虑。
After an hour and a half they were saying I'm fine.
一个半小时后，他们说我很好。
And they were fine.
他们都很好。
And the standard care group had five out of 10 anxiety scores at that point.
此时，标准护理组的焦虑评分为满分 5。
So we published that in the Lancet, big randomized trial.
所以我们在《柳叶刀》上发表了大型随机试验。
If we had a drug that did that, every hospital in the country would be using it now.
如果我们有一种药物可以做到这一点，那么该国的每家医院现在都会使用它。
But there's no industry to push it.
但没有产业来推动它。
So that's part of what helped us decide that we needed to help people do this with Reveri and teach them how to do it and provide interactive support for them to do it.
因此，这帮助我们决定需要帮助人们使用 Reveri 来做到这一点，并教他们如何做到这一点，并为他们提供互动支持来做到这一点。
And the question, although, is does it work long term?
但问题是，它能长期发挥作用吗？
'Cause what we can do acutely doesn't necessarily carry on.
因为我们能敏锐地做的事情并不一定会持续下去。
So we did a randomized trial of women with metastatic breast cancer.
因此，我们对患有转移性乳腺癌的女性进行了一项随机试验。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
They had advancing disease.
他们的病情正在恶化。
We met with them in a support group once a week and taught them self-hypnosis for stress and anxiety and pain control at the end.
我们每周在一个支持小组中与他们会面一次，并在最后教他们自我催眠以缓解压力和焦虑以及控制疼痛。
And by the end of a year, the treatment group had half the pain.
到一年年底，治疗组的疼痛减轻了一半。
The control group did, on the same, in very low amounts of medication.
对照组同样服用非常少量的药物。
So it lasts.
所以它会持续下去。
And they would say, "When I felt that pain in my chest and thought it was a metastasis, I just did the exercise, I got myself in a warm bath and I felt fine." So it works because it becomes a skill that people acquire, but they can tell right away whether it's likely to help them working with a clinician or now using the app or other ways of helping them learn to use it as a skill.
他们会说，“当我感到胸部疼痛并认为这是转移时，我只是做了练习，我给自己洗了个热水澡，我感觉很好。”所以它之所以有效，是因为它成为人们获得的一项技能，但他们可以立即判断它是否可能帮助他们与临床医生合作，或者现在使用该应用程序或其他方式帮助他们学习将其作为一项技能使用。
So the nice thing is you will know very quickly whether it's likely to help you or not.
因此，好处是您很快就会知道它是否对您有帮助。
And if it is, you can learn to do it for yourself.
如果是的话，您可以学习自己做。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's great.
太好了。
And we again, there'll be link to Reveri in the caption; that's available for Apple and Android.
再说一次，标题中将会有 Reveri 的链接；适用于 Apple 和 Android。
And I think even though there's a nominal cost there, I think that as you mentioned, medications and other approaches to dealing with these problems are quite expensive and have all the potential for side effects and things.
我认为即使有名义上的成本，我认为正如你所提到的，治疗这些问题的药物和其他方法非常昂贵，并且有可能产生副作用和其他问题。
Not that some of those aren't also useful.
并不是说其中一些没有用。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
Could I, before you get to that, just one thing.
在你开始之前，我能先说一件事吗？
We've worked very hard on the app.
我们在该应用程序上付出了很大的努力。
We have an iOS app for Apple.
我们有一个适用于 Apple 的 iOS 应用程序。
We decided to table for a moment redoing the Android app.
我们决定暂时重做 Android 应用程序。
So it was available when we were working through the Alexa platform.
所以当我们通过 Alexa 平台工作时它就可用了。
It's not at the moment, but it will be soon.
目前还没有，但很快就会。
So I just don't want people to be disappointed if they're looking for it for Android; it's on our agenda, but we don't have it at the moment.
所以我只是不希望人们在寻找 Android 版时感到失望；它已在我们的议程上，但我们目前还没有。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Great.
太棒了。
Thanks for that clarification.
感谢您的澄清。
So hopefully in time for both, I get asked a lot about obsessive thoughts or intrusive thoughts.
所以希望在这两个问题上，我都会被问到很多关于强迫性想法或侵入性想法的问题。
I also get asked a lot about OCD.
我也被问到很多关于强迫症的问题。
Is there any evidence that hypnosis or self-hypnosis can be used for dealing with obsessive thoughts?
有没有证据表明催眠或自我催眠可以用来处理强迫性想法？
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
Sometimes there are some very obsessional people who just turn out not to be that hypnotizable.
有时候，有些非常痴迷的人，结果却并不那么容易被催眠。
Yeah.
是的。
And it's not random.
而且它不是随机的。
They tend to be so overcontrolling of thought.
他们往往过度控制思想。
They're all busy evaluating rather than experiencing.
他们都忙于评估而不是体验。
So it's like-
所以这就像是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I know a like few people that.
我认识这样的人很少。
It sounds like an adaptive mindset for a lot of professions in areas and that we get trained up in that during school, how to obsess over the exam, obsess over our social interactions.
对于许多领域的职业来说，这听起来像是一种适应性思维方式，我们在学校期间接受了这方面的培训，如何沉迷于考试，沉迷于我们的社交互动。
I mean, it's part of becoming a functional human being.
我的意思是，这是成为一个有功能的人的一部分。
And yet, you can take us down a different-
然而，你可以用不同的方式让我们失望——
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
We sometimes overdo it.
我们有时做得太过分了。
I mean, I'll tell you one example from extreme situations, 'cause ...
我的意思是，我会告诉你一个极端情况的例子，因为......
you're judging, evaluating, you're not letting yourself experience, including emotionally.
你在评判、评估，你没有让自己体验，包括情感上的体验。
I know somebody who listens to the tapes from airplanes that go down, so they get the black box and they listen to it.
我知道有人听飞机坠毁时的录音带，所以他们拿到黑匣子并听。
And he said to me, you know-
他对我说，你知道——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's his profession or he does this recreationally?
这是他的职业还是他只是为了消遣？
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
No, it's his profession.
不，这是他的职业。
That's what he did.
他就是这么做的。
And because they're trying to do accident prevention and how to handle things.
因为他们正在努力预防事故以及如何处理事情。
And he said that you worry about people panicking and here these guys know that they've got 30 seconds or some 45 seconds, and they're just going through their checklist.
他说你担心人们会惊慌失措，而这些人知道他们只有 30 秒或大约 45 秒的时间，他们只是在检查清单。
He said they don't panic enough.
他说他们还不够恐慌。
They're taught that this is what you do.
他们被告知这就是你所做的。
And then there is reason, there's good reason for it.
然后还有理由，有充分的理由。
But sometimes they overdo it, and it's painful to listen to this because what's going to happen.
但有时他们做得太过分了，听着这些很痛苦，因为接下来会发生什么。
So it's kind of a balance we have to hit.
所以这是我们必须达到的平衡。
And sometimes we get too emotional and too absorbed and you don't, you're not with it enough to sort of see other possibilities — that can be a problem.
有时我们变得太情绪化、太专注，而你却没有，你没有足够的时间去看到其他的可能性——这可能是一个问题。
But on the other hand,
但另一方面，
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
...
...
to sort see other possibilities, that can be a problem.
排序查看其他可能性，这可能是一个问题。
But on the other hand, sometimes you're too rigid and controlled and you don't let your emotions guide you to what you need to do to protect yourself, or protect others.
但另一方面，有时你过于严格和控制，你不会让你的情绪引导你采取行动来保护自己或保护他人。
So I would say, in general, that people with OCD are on the less hypnotizable side of the spectrum.
所以我想说，一般来说，患有强迫症的人属于不太容易被催眠的一方。
They're less likely to allow themselves to engage in any ...
他们不太可能允许自己参与任何......
And the typical example is the checking with OCD, for example.
典型的例子就是强迫症检查。
They don't remember whether they locked the door, or turned off the gas in the oven and they keep going back and they keep checking.
他们不记得是否锁了门，或者关掉了烤箱里的煤气，他们不断地回去并不断检查。
So there, the evaluative component of the brain overrides the experiential one.
因此，大脑的评价部分凌驾于经验部分之上。
And sometimes, people can get some benefit, but they're not a group that I would select for being the most likely to respond to self-hypnotic approaches.
有时，人们可以获得一些好处，但我不会选择他们作为最有可能对自我催眠方法做出反应的群体。
PART 2 OF 4 ENDS Andrew Huberman:
第 2 部分（共 4 部分）结束 Andrew Huberman：
Are superstitions similar?
迷信有相似之处吗？
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
Superstitions, I think that's more ...There are people who are very hypnotizable, who keep getting caught up in things like superstitions, and there the imagination supplants the reality.
迷信，我认为这更……有些人非常容易被催眠，他们总是陷入迷信之类的事情中，在那里想象取代了现实。
And we've seen a lot of that happening recently.
我们最近看到了很多这样的事情发生。
And so I think there, it's possible that they could be helped by learning to see it, but put it in context, see it from a different point of view.
所以我认为，通过学习如何看待它，他们可能会得到帮助，但要把它放在上下文中，从不同的角度看待它。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I developed a pretty vicious superstition when I was in college and it was hard to break actually.
我在大学时就养成了一种非常恶毒的迷信，而且实际上很难打破。
I always feel that when I talk to clinicians, I have to reveal certain things about my ...
我总觉得当我与临床医生交谈时，我必须透露一些关于我的......
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
Please do.
请这样做。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
own pathology.
自己的病理。
And so ...
所以...
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
You'll get my bill later .
稍后你会收到我的账单。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thank you.
谢谢你。
Yes.
是的。
It's part of the reason I arranged this.
这是我安排这个的部分原因。
No, I'm just kidding.
不，我只是开玩笑。
But yeah, I did.
但是，是的，我做到了。
I had a habit of knocking on wood for things and I noticed it started to ...
我有敲木头找东西的习惯，我注意到它开始......
I would sneak knocking on wood every once in a while, because I didn't want people to think I was doing it too often.
我会时不时地偷偷地敲一下木头，因为我不想让人们认为我这样做得太频繁了。
And then I started to realize that it was becoming a little bit of a reflex.
然后我开始意识到这已经成为一种条件反射。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then I saw this incredible video from Bence Ölveczky's lab at Harvard.
然后我看到了来自哈佛大学 Bence Ölveczky 实验室的这段令人难以置信的视频。
He studies motor patterns and he has these rats that press different sequences of levers and turn dials in order to get a pellet of food.
他研究运动模式，让这些老鼠按下不同顺序的杠杆并转动转盘以获得食物颗粒。
But that as they do that, they'll start to introduce these behaviors that have nothing to do with the actual lever pressing.
但当他们这样做时，他们将开始引入这些与实际按下杠杆无关的行为。
They'll start scratching their hind quarter and things like that, and their hat ...
他们会开始抓后躯之类的东西，还有他们的帽子......
and their heads, excuse me, they don't wear hats, and flipping their ears.
还有他们的头，对不起，他们不戴帽子，还翻着耳朵。
And this is just like pitcher before throwing a baseball that ...
这就像投手在投掷棒球之前......
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
Oh yeah.
哦，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
we do this, we start to incorporate motor behaviors that are unrelated to the outcome, but our mind somehow starts to think that it, they're necessary for the outcome.
当我们这样做时，我们开始纳入与结果无关的运动行为，但我们的大脑以某种方式开始认为它们对于结果是必要的。
So then you incorporate it.
那么你就把它合并起来。
So I decided to break it by simply forcing myself to not do it for about a week.
所以我决定通过强迫自己大约一周不这样做来打破它。
And then it just seemed like a ridiculous thing to do.
然后这似乎是一件荒谬的事情。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Knock on wood.
敲木头。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
We call that response prevention and it works.
我们称之为响应预防，它确实有效。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
Because what you do is you set up a new context in your brain, where you get the outcome you want, devoid of the extraneous behavior.
因为你所做的就是在你的大脑中建立一个新的环境，在那里你可以获得你想要的结果，而没有无关的行为。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
And I knew it was nuts, right?
我知道这很疯狂，对吧？
I knew it was illogical.
我知道这是不合逻辑的。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But somehow these things take on meaning.
但不知何故，这些事情有了意义。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So we talked about the utility of hypnosis for stress reduction, phobias, pain — possibly, we don't know, but for things like ADHD and OCD, it just will depend on hypnotizability.
所以我们讨论了催眠对于减轻压力、恐惧症、疼痛的效用——可能我们不知道，但对于注意力缺陷多动症和强迫症等疾病，它只取决于催眠能力。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You talked about this, a beautiful study on the metastatic breast cancer outcome, or patients.
您谈到了一项关于转移性乳腺癌结果或患者的精彩研究。
Hypnotizability is clearly a key variable.
催眠能力显然是一个关键变量。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So could you please tell us what hypnotizability is, how it's evaluated, and what the Spiegel Eye Roll test is?
那么您能告诉我们什么是催眠性、如何评估它以及什么是明镜翻白眼测试吗？
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
Okay, sure.
好吧，当然。
So hypnotizability is just a capacity to have hypnotic experiences.
因此，可催眠性只是一种获得催眠体验的能力。
And we have a test called the Hypnotic Induction Profile where we give a highly structured hypnotic experience.
我们有一个称为催眠诱导模式的测试，我们提供高度结构化的催眠体验。
And the old tradition in clinical hypnosis was that you try a bunch of different things, talking, walking upstairs and downstairs, and other images, and time what you say to the breathing of this subject and all that.
临床催眠的古老传统是，你尝试一堆不同的事情，说话，上下楼走动，以及其他图像，然后根据对象的呼吸以及所有这些来计算你所说的时间。
And the more you change what you do as a clinician, the less you can make a variation in outcome.
作为一名临床医生，你所做的事情改变得越多，你对结果的影响就越小。
And it could take a long time, 20 minutes, 30 minutes.
而且可能需要很长时间，20分钟，30分钟。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
And I just view that as a kind of complex, not very effective way of assessing the person's hypnotic capacity.
我只是认为这是一种复杂的、不是非常有效的评估人催眠能力的方法。
We know that the peak period of hypnotizability in the human life is the latency years in childhood.
我们知道，人一生中易被催眠的高峰期是童年时期的潜伏期。
So every eight-year-old is in a trance all the time.
所以每个八岁的孩子一直都处于恍惚状态。
You call them in for dinner, they don't hear you.
你叫他们来吃饭，他们听不到你的声音。
They're doing their thing.
他们正在做他们的事情。
And that's why childhood is such a wonderful experience.
这就是为什么童年是一次如此美妙的经历。
Work and play are all the same thing.
工作和娱乐都是同一件事。
And we try to make them into little adults, which I think is a terrible mistake.
我们试图让他们成为小成年人，我认为这是一个可怕的错误。
And everything is fun for them.
对他们来说一切都很有趣。
They enjoy learning, they enjoy everything.
他们享受学习，享受一切。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So what age are they in this David Spiegel:
那么这个大卫·斯皮格尔中的他们几岁了：
This is like six to 10, six to 11.
这就像六比十，六比十一。
They're playful.
他们很贪玩。
They enjoy everything.
他们享受一切。
Everything is a game and fun.
一切都是游戏，充满乐趣。
And we try to make it miserable for them, but they've got it.
我们试图让他们感到痛苦，但他们已经受够了。
And then what Piaget called a more adult cognitive framework, where we learn abstract concepts.
然后是皮亚杰所说的更成人的认知框架，我们可以在其中学习抽象概念。
We learn that even if one bottle looks bigger than the other, they can have equal volume.
我们了解到，即使一个瓶子看起来比另一个瓶子大，它们也可以具有相同的体积。
And so we start imposing logic.
所以我们开始强加逻辑。
We're growing our DLPFC at that point and imposing cognitive structure on experience.
那时我们正在发展我们的 DLPFC，并将认知结构强加于经验。
Some people start to lose that hypnotic ability.
有些人开始失去催眠能力。
By the time you're in your early twenties, your hypnotizability becomes extremely fixed.
当你二十出头的时候，你的催眠能力就变得极其固定。
And there was a study done at Stanford; Ernest Hilgard, Phil Zimbardo did this looking at ...
斯坦福大学做了一项研究；欧内斯特·希尔加德 (Ernest Hilgard)、菲尔·津巴多 (Phil Zimbardo) 这样做是为了……
they tracked down students who were in Psych 1, had their hypnotizability measured and retested them blindly 25 years later.
他们找到了《心理学一》的学生，测量了他们的催眠能力，并在 25 年后重新对他们进行了盲测。
And the test/retest correlation was ...
测试/重新测试相关性是......
you want to guess what it was?
你想猜猜那是什么吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm guessing it's, I don't know, 0.6 something.
我猜是，我不知道，0.6左右。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
Yeah, very close.
是的，非常接近。
It was 0.7.
是0.7。
IQ would be 0.6 on a 25-year interval, so it's more stable than IQ over a 25-year interval.
25 年间隔内的 IQ 为 0.6，因此它比 25 年间隔内的 IQ 更稳定。
So once you're at that point, that's where you are.
所以一旦你到了那个点，那就是你所在的地方。
What are the factors that lead to that?
导致这种情况的因素有哪些？
And so what it means is it about a third of adults are just not hypnotizable, two thirds are, about 15% are extremely hypnotizable.
这意味着大约三分之一的成年人是不易被催眠的，三分之二的是，大约 15% 的成年人非常容易被催眠。
And we can measure that and give it a number from zero to 10.
我们可以测量它并给它一个从 0 到 10 的数字。
And that's very useful.
这非常有用。
For some of my patients, when I do it, I say, "Look, I'm sorry, you're not hypnotizable.
对于我的一些病人，当我这样做时，我会说：“听着，对不起，你不能被催眠。
We're going to do something else." Medication, systematic desensitization, mindfulness, other things.
我们要做点别的事。”药物治疗、系统脱敏、正念等等。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
Or, if they're very hypnotizable, I just go for it.
或者，如果他们非常容易催眠，我就会去做。
I don't do a lot of explaining.
我不做太多解释。
People who are low to moderate hypnotizable like explanations about what you're doing, but then they can still get the benefit.
低到中度催眠能力的人喜欢解释你在做什么，但他们仍然可以获得好处。
So it helps me guide the nature of my treatment with these people.
所以它可以帮助我指导我对这些人的治疗方式。
Now the eye roll is ..
现在翻白眼是..
my father used to use an eye fixation induction.
我父亲过去常常使用眼睛注视诱导法。
He used to say, "Look up at the ceiling and now close your eyes while you're looking up.
他常说：“抬头看天花板，然后在抬头时闭上眼睛。
You're very ...
你很...
yes, you're very ...
是的，你很...
"
”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yes.
是的。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
So, he noticed he had two patients back to back.
所以，他注意到他有两个背靠背的病人。
And one was a woman who I'd seen him work with who had hysterical seizures.
其中一位是我见过和他一起工作的一位女士，她患有歇斯底里性癫痫发作。
She would just suddenly start shaking and .
她会突然开始颤抖，然后……
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Real epileptic seizures?
真正的癫痫发作吗？
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
No, pseudo epileptic seizures.
不，假性癫痫发作。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I see.
我明白了。
So hysteria.
如此歇斯底里。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
Hysteria.
歇斯底里。
And although some people have both, that is, for some people, real epilepsy becomes a framework that gets elaborated on for when you're stressed, you have seizures.
尽管有些人两者都有，也就是说，对于某些人来说，真正的癫痫症成为一个框架，当你有压力时，你会癫痫发作。
She just had pseudo epilepsy, no EEG abnormalities.
她只是假性癫痫，脑电图没有异常。
And she was really something to watch.
她确实值得一看。
Her husband had to move his work bench near the door so that if she started to have a seizure, he could run home and try and help her with it.
她的丈夫不得不把他的工作台移到门附近，这样如果她开始癫痫发作，他就可以跑回家尝试帮助她。
It was that bad.
太糟糕了。
And he noticed that when she did what you did, when she looked up, when she would have one of her seizure events, all you see is sclera.
他注意到，当她做你所做的事情时，当她抬起头时，当她发生癫痫发作时，你看到的只是巩膜。
You don't see iris anymore.
你再也看不到虹膜了。
And she would start to seize.
她会开始抓住。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
So he did a great thing with her.
所以他和她做了一件伟大的事情。
He taught her to have seizures.
他教她癫痫发作。
Everybody else was telling her to stop.
其他人都劝她停下来。
He made her have one.
他让她拥有了一个。
So he hypnotized her, "Let's go back to the last time you had one." And sure enough, she'd start to shake and gradually he'd make them smaller and smaller.
于是他对她进行了催眠，“让我们回到你上次拥有的时候吧。”果然，她开始颤抖，渐渐地，他让它们变得越来越小。
So she was learning she could control, she'd have access.
所以她知道她可以控制，她可以访问。
It's like with PTSD, you don't avoid it, you don't suppress it.
就像创伤后应激障碍（PTSD）一样，你不能回避它，也不能抑制它。
You confront it and figure out how to deal with it.
你面对它并弄清楚如何处理它。
The next patient he had was a rigid obsessional businessman, who wanted to stop being so controlling and all this.
他的下一个病人是一位僵化的、痴迷的商人，他不想再那么控制欲和所有这一切。
It reminded me, there was a New Yorker cartoon of a driver who comes to a yield sign and he yells, "Never." It's always been .
这让我想起，《纽约客》有一部漫画，画的是一名司机来到让行标志前，他大喊：“决不。”一直都是。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sounds about right.
听起来不错。
You're a New Yorker.
你是纽约人。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
Yeah, I'm a New Yorker.
是的，我是纽约人。
And so this guy, when he tried to look up, he couldn't keep his eyes up while he closed them.
所以这个家伙，当他试图抬头时，他闭上眼睛就无法抬起眼睛。
And so my father started testing people.
于是我父亲开始测试人们。
And it seemed that there is a rough correlation between the capacity to keep your eyes up while you close them and measured hypnotizability.
闭上眼睛时保持眼睛向上的能力与测量的催眠能力之间似乎存在粗略的相关性。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So that people who are listening and watching on video.
以便那些正在收听和观看视频的人。
So the Spiegel Eye Roll test involves looking up at the ceiling.
因此，明镜翻白眼测试涉及抬头看天花板。
So it's tilting the head back.
所以它的头向后倾斜。
I'm tilting my chin back and looking up at the ceiling now, but I'm also directing my eyes upward and my eyes are open.
我现在将下巴向后倾斜并抬头看着天花板，但我的眼睛也向上并且我的眼睛是睁开的。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then the eye roll test involves then closing the eyelids while the eyes are open.
然后转动眼球测试包括在睁开眼睛的情况下闭上眼睑。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
While they're open.
当他们开放时。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And whether or not the eyes roll back.
以及是否会翻白眼。
And as you said it, then you see sclera, the white part.
正如你所说，然后你看到巩膜，白色的部分。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
You see sclera, the white part.
你看到巩膜，白色的部分。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That means you're very hypnotizable, or moderately hypnotizable.
这意味着你非常容易被催眠，或者中等程度容易被催眠。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Whereas if the eyes move down and you see iris, the colored part of the eye as the eyes close, less hypnotizable.
然而，如果眼睛向下移动，你会看到虹膜，即眼睛闭上时眼睛的有色部分，则不太容易被催眠。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
Right.
对。
Correct.
正确的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And you can look this up online there, you just put Spiegel Eye Roll test and you'll find it.
你可以在网上查一下，你只需进行 Spiegel Eye Roll 测试，你就会找到它。
And we are also going to do an actual example of hypnosis on video later.
稍后我们还将在视频中做一个催眠的实际例子。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
Right.
对。
So, you're asking the brain to do something difficult, to keep the eyes up while closing the eyelid.
所以，你要求大脑做一些困难的事情，在闭上眼睑的同时保持眼睛向上。
And so that's contradictory signals for the third, fourth, and sixth cranial nerve nuclei that control eye movement.
因此，控制眼球运动的第三、第四和第六脑神经核的信号是矛盾的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You said the third ...
你说的是第三个...
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
Fourth, and six cranial nerve nuclei.
第四、六脑神经核团。
And so there you're suspending one activity while asking them to do another.
因此，您暂停一项活动，同时要求他们做另一项活动。
And eye movements have a lot to do with levels of consciousness.
眼球运动与意识水平有很大关系。
The periaqueductal gray surrounds these cranial nerve nuclei.
导水管周围灰质围绕这些脑神经核。
And we close our eyes when we sleep, we have rapid eye movement when we dream.
当我们睡觉时我们闭上眼睛，当我们做梦时我们的眼球运动很快。
Most drugs that affect level of consciousness can affect eyes and eye movements, either the dilation or contraction or the pupils, depending on whether it's a stimulant or an opioid.
大多数影响意识水平的药物都会影响眼睛和眼球运动，无论是扩张或收缩还是瞳孔，具体取决于它是兴奋剂还是阿片类药物。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Stimulants make the pupils big, right?
兴奋剂会让瞳孔变大，对吗？
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
Big.
大。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, like cocaine, amphetamine.
是的，比如可卡因、安非他明。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
Right, Exactly.
对，完全正确。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Things of that sort.
诸如此类的事情。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
And opioids, you get constricted pupils.
和阿片类药物一样，你的瞳孔会收缩。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This is what parents looking at their kids coming in the door late at night.
这就是父母在深夜看着孩子进门的情景。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
That's right.
没错。
That's right.
这是正确的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They're looking for substance abuse.
他们正在寻找药物滥用行为。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
So, there's something about the eyes that has a lot to do with level of consciousness.
所以，眼睛与意识水平有很大关系。
Obviously, you close your eyes when you go to sleep.
显然，当你入睡时，你会闭上眼睛。
You have rapid eye movement when you're dreaming, so it's not surprising.
当你做梦时，你的眼球运动很快，所以这并不奇怪。
And there's an old Zen practice called looking at the third eye.
有一种古老的禅宗修行叫做“看第三只眼”。
And I think part of the reason that this happens is where you're looking up in the inside, it's like there's a third eye between the other two in your forehead.
我认为发生这种情况的部分原因是你向内看，就像你额头上的另外两只眼睛之间有第三只眼睛一样。
And I think it's because we are visual creatures.
我认为这是因为我们是视觉动物。
We're pretty pathetic from a physical point of view.
从身体的角度来看，我们非常可怜。
Many animals can outrun us, or outsmell us, or eagles could read newsprint at a hundred yards, and we can't.
许多动物可以跑得比我们快，或者比我们嗅得快，或者老鹰可以在一百码外阅读新闻纸，而我们却不能。
So, our major defensive sensory input is vision.
因此，我们主要的防御性感官输入是视觉。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
And that's why predator animals have eyes in the front of their heads so that they have very good detailed division vision of prey.
这就是为什么捕食动物的眼睛长在头的前面，这样它们就能对猎物有很好的细致的区分视野。
Whereas prey animals like deer have eyes on the side of their heads.
而鹿等猎物的眼睛则长在头的一侧。
So they don't see things that well, but they have a much bigger range of potential to see threat.
因此，他们对事物的看法不太好，但他们有更大范围的潜力来看到威胁。
And we mainly use ...
而我们主要用...
And in fact, it's interesting, there have been social anthropologists that say, "Why do we gather where we do on coastlines and at the edge of a forest or something?" It's because you've got protection in the back.
事实上，有趣的是，有社会人类学家说，“为什么我们聚集在海岸线、森林边缘或其他地方？”因为背后有保护。
Something can attack you from one side and you have a big vision of what might threaten you.
有些东西可能会从一侧攻击你，而你对可能威胁你的事物有远大的认识。
And we tend to be attracted to those kinds of physical situations.
我们往往会被这些身体状况所吸引。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We love vistas.
我们喜欢远景。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
We love vista.
我们喜欢远景。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Vistas are very calming.
景色非常平静。
They take us into that panoramic vision.
他们带我们进入全景视野。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I didn't know this, but it turns out that most of the scenic spots at any location in national parks were where people naturally aggregated, which makes sense.
我不知道这一点，但事实证明，国家公园任何地点的大多数景点都是人们自然聚集的地方，这是有道理的。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
Sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That those signs and locations were built up around peoples' tendency and animals' tendencies.
这些标志和位置是围绕人的倾向和动物的倾向建立的。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
Oh, really?
哦，真的吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
To aggregate there.
在那里聚集。
Yeah.
是的。
There's a interesting book on the history of the national parks that says that they didn't give a research study to support it, but there was no Google maps, obviously.
有一本关于国家公园历史的有趣的书，上面说他们没有进行研究来支持它，但显然没有谷歌地图。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
That's very interesting.
这很有趣。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Panorama and visual boundaries are really interesting.
全景和视觉边界真的很有趣。
So the eyes, as we both know, are two pieces of the central nervous system of the brain.
因此，我们都知道，眼睛是大脑中枢神经系统的两个部分。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I used to say that the eyes are outside the skull.
我以前常说眼睛在头骨外面。
And a neuro ophthalmologist wrote to me and vehemently pointed out that they are outside the cranial vault.
一位神经眼科医生写信给我，强烈指出它们位于颅顶之外。
So, they're outside the cranial vault, but they are two pieces of brain.
所以，它们在颅顶之外，但它们是大脑的两块。
They're out there.
他们就在那里。
And so you mentioned cranial nerves three, four, and six.
所以你提到了第三、第四和第六脑神经。
This isn't a neuroanatomy course, but maybe we could go a little deeper there.
这不是神经解剖学课程，但也许我们可以更深入一些。
So you said there's contradictory activity.
所以你说存在矛盾的活动。
Looking up is controlled by the one set of cranial nerves, and then the closing of the eyelids is controlled by another cranial nerve?
抬头是由一组脑神经控制的，那么眼皮的闭合是由另一组脑神经控制的？
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
No, it's the same one.
不，是同一个。
I think it's six that when you close your eyes, you activate the ...
我认为六是当你闭上眼睛时，你会激活......
No, I guess it's the facial nerve.
不，我猜是面神经。
It's seven.
七点了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Seven?
七？
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
Seven.
七。
Yeah.
是的。
But you're looking up, you're activating the muscles that force your eyes to look up.
但你在向上看，你正在激活迫使你的眼睛向上看的肌肉。
And closing your eyelids normally relaxes those.
闭上眼睑通常可以放松眼睑。
Relaxes that upper movement, because your eyes are closed and you don't need to do it.
放松上部运动，因为你的眼睛是闭着的，你不需要这样做。
So, you're breaking a usual customary pattern.
所以，你打破了通常的习惯模式。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's like the rubbing the ...
就好像擦...
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hey, I can't even do it.
嘿嘿，我也做不到。
See, it's like the ...
你看，这就像...
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
Right.
对。
That's exactly right.
完全正确。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Rubbing your tummy and patting your head.
揉揉你的肚子，拍拍你的头。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There's a bit of a conflict there.
那里有一点冲突。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But clinically it's been a good probe for you.
但从临床上来说，这对你来说是一个很好的探索。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
It has.
确实如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And for your father.
还有你的父亲。
So was it Spiegel Senior, or Spiegel Junior?
那么是 Spiegel Senior 还是 Spiegel Junior？
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
That's Spiegel Senior.
那是老斯皮格尔。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That developed the Spiegel Eye Roll Test.
由此开发了明镜翻眼测试。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
But the key issue is this, that normally when we close our eyes also, we're going to sleep.
但关键问题是，通常当我们闭上眼睛时，我们就会睡觉。
You're not worried about what's going on in the world anymore.
你不再担心世界上正在发生的事情。
Here, you're maintaining resting alertness.
在这里，您保持休息时的警觉性。
So you're focusing, but you're turning inward.
所以你在集中注意力，但你却在转向内心。
That's an unusual state.
这是一种不寻常的状态。
Normally, we close our eyes periodically, we have to.
通常，我们会定期闭上眼睛，这是我们必须的。
But when you close your eyes for some period of time, it's normally to go to sleep.
但当你闭上眼睛一段时间后，通常就是要睡觉了。
And you're not worried about detecting risk or threat.
而且您不必担心检测风险或威胁。
So, it's an interesting state because you're turning inward, basically.
所以，这是一个有趣的状态，因为基本上你正在转向内向。
You're looking up, you're shutting your eyes and you're allowing whatever happens outside you to happen, and focusing on what's going on inward.
你抬起头，闭上眼睛，让外面发生的一切发生，并专注于内心发生的事情。
So, I think it's a signal to your brain to turn inward.
所以，我认为这是向你的大脑发出的向内转的信号。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Very interesting.
非常有趣。
And meditation, of course, could be done with eyes open, but almost always is done with eyes closed.
当然，冥想可以睁着眼睛进行，但几乎总是闭着眼睛进行。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
Yes.
是的。
That's right.
这是正确的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Very interesting.
非常有趣。
So, you can very quickly determine whether or not someone is highly hypnotizable.
因此，您可以非常快速地确定某人是否容易被催眠。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Not at all hypnotized.
完全没有被催眠。
Well, you said about two-thirds of people can be hypnotized.
嗯，你说大约三分之二的人可以被催眠。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Obviously a third cannot, but within the two-thirds that can, there's a range, and you said 15% of people fall into this highly hypnotizable category ...
显然三分之一不能，但在三分之二可以的范围内，有一个范围，你说 15% 的人属于这种高度催眠的类别......
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
That's correct.
这是正确的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that I seem to be a member of.
我似乎是其中的一员。
And does repeated use of self-hypnosis, or clinical hypnosis increase or change hypnotizability for those that can access it in the first place?
重复使用自我催眠或临床催眠是否会增加或改变那些能够首先进行催眠的人的催眠能力？
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
I would say in general, it may increase a little bit, but not a hell of a lot.
我想说的是，一般来说，它可能会增加一点点，但不会增加很多。
And it's not worth the effort to increase your hypnotizable ability at that point.
那时不值得努力提高你的催眠能力。
It's worth trying to deal with the problem you're dealing with, so you can get better at using it at the level that you have.
尝试解决您正在处理的问题是值得的，这样您就可以在现有水平上更好地使用它。
There was a study done in which they tried to train people to be more hypnotizable.
在一项研究中，他们试图训练人们变得更容易被催眠。
And obviously there are subjective and behavioral components to the test.
显然，测试包含主观和行为成分。
You can learn to do a little better on them.
你可以学习对它们做得更好一点。
But what we found was when we reanalyzed this data, that we could account for three times the final score based on the initial hypnotizability measurement, rather than whether or not they had been trained to do better.
但我们发现，当我们重新分析这些数据时，我们可以根据最初的催眠能力测量来解释最终分数的三倍，而不是根据他们是否接受过做得更好的训练。
So, you can improve it a little, but it's not worth the trouble.
所以，你可以稍微改进一下，但不值得这么麻烦。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Got it.
明白了。
Along the lines of eyes and eye movements, a lot of interest out there about EMDR, eye movement desensitization reprocessing.
沿着眼睛和眼球运动的方向，人们对 EMDR（眼动脱敏再处理）很感兴趣。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Shapiro herself was working, not, she wasn't at Stanford directly, but was local to Stanford.
夏皮罗本人正在工作，不是，她并不直接在斯坦福大学，而是斯坦福本地人。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think in Palo Alto .
我想是在帕洛阿尔托。
So, what are your thoughts on EMDR?
那么，您对 EMDR 有何看法？
Where is it useful?
哪里有用呢？
Where do you think it's less useful?
你觉得哪里不太有用？
Are there things that EMDR could be combined with to make it more useful?
EMDR 是否可以与某些东西结合起来以使其更有用？
The listeners of this podcast come to the podcast with a range of backgrounds and interests.
该播客的听众具有不同的背景和兴趣。
To me, it makes sense why EMDR, lateralized eye movements, might work given the newer data that it can suppress amygdala activity in some animals and animal models and in humans as well.
对我来说，鉴于新的数据表明 EMDR（侧向眼球运动）可以抑制某些动物和动物模型以及人类的杏仁核活动，所以它可能会发挥作用是有道理的。
But it really hasn't been explored much neurally.
但它确实还没有得到太多的神经探索。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I've heard things like it coordinates the two sides of the brain, which to me is just a throwaway.
我听说过类似它可以协调大脑两侧的东西，这对我来说只是一次性的。
I don't think there's any evidence that coordinating the two sides of the brain is better than not coordinating.
我认为没有任何证据表明协调大脑两侧比不协调更好。
I wouldn't be speaking right now if the two sides of my brain were well correlated, because language is lateralized.
如果我的大脑两侧关联良好，我现在就不会说话，因为语言是偏侧化的。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
Right.
对。
Exactly.
确切地。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I've heard that it mimics rapid eye movements during sleep, but actually it doesn't.
我听说它模仿睡眠期间的快速眼球运动，但实际上并非如此。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
Right.
对。
Right.
正确的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But I have heard people talk about their positive experiences with EMDR.
但我听人们谈论他们在 EMDR 方面的积极经历。
What are your thoughts about EMDR?
您对 EMDR 有何看法？
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
Yeah, you had a good comment on that in one of your recent podcasts.
是的，您在最近的一个播客中对此发表了很好的评论。
And I'll tell you one way I think about it from a bemused point of view is, you mentioned it earlier, the oldest idea of a hypnotic induction was a dangling watch.
我会告诉你，我从困惑的角度思考这个问题的一种方式是，你之前提到过，催眠诱导的最古老的想法是一块悬挂的手表。
And to watch.
并观看。
And in fact, there was enough concern about it that when automobiles were invented, there was a movement to prevent installing windshield wipers, because people were afraid that they would be hypnotized if they watched the windshield wipers go back and forth on a car.
事实上，人们对此的担忧已经足够多了，当汽车被发明时，就有一场阻止安装雨刷的运动，因为人们担心如果看到雨刷在汽车上来回移动，他们会被催眠。
Now it turns out, fortunately, that you tend not to look at the windshield wipers.
幸运的是，现在事实证明，您往往不会看挡风玻璃雨刷器。
You keep looking through the windshield.
你一直透过挡风玻璃看。
And so we have windshield wipers today, but that movement is what exactly used to be a hypnotic induction.
所以我们今天有了挡风玻璃雨刷器，但这种运动过去确实是一种催眠感应。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
I think there is a lot of hypnosis in EMDR.
我认为EMDR中有很多催眠的成分。
And I think it's a combination of that with exposure-based treatments where you use EMDR to think about it.
我认为这是与基于暴露的治疗的结合，您可以使用 EMDR 来考虑它。
You tend not to process the experience as much and just do the physical part of it, which I personally think is a drawback.
你往往不会过多地处理体验，而只做其中的身体部分，我个人认为这是一个缺点。
And every study I've seen that was a dismantling study.
我见过的每一项研究都是拆解研究。
There's no question that people who go through EMDR, many of them get better with trauma-related problems.
毫无疑问，经历过 EMDR 的人中，许多人的创伤相关问题都得到了改善。
And the VA has a big program using it and so on.
VA 有一个大型项目正在使用它等等。
But every program that has dismantled going through the treatment with having the lateral eye movement has shown that the lateral eye movement doesn't add anything to it.
但每一个通过横向眼球运动进行治疗的项目都表明，横向眼球运动不会增加任何效果。
And toward the end of her career, Francine was doing now contralateral touching or something.
在她职业生涯的末期，弗朗辛现在正在做对侧触摸之类的事情。
It wasn't eye movements anymore.
不再是眼球运动了。
It was other things.
这是其他事情。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
So, I tend to think that EMDR is another form of exposure-based therapy for trauma.
因此，我倾向于认为 EMDR 是另一种形式的基于暴露的创伤疗法。
But as you've implied, with the exception of this possible new data, it certainly doesn't have to do with rapid eye movement sleep.
但正如您所暗示的，除了这些可能的新数据之外，它肯定与快速眼动睡眠无关。
And I don't think moving the eyes is the issue.
我不认为移动眼睛是问题所在。
I think it's a way of sitting down and confronting trauma.
我认为这是坐下来面对创伤的一种方式。
And I would rather that the trauma itself be processed a bit more than often happens in EMDR.
我宁愿创伤本身得到比 EMDR 中经常发生的情况更多的处理。
So, a lot of people have gotten therapy, some of them have been helped.
因此，很多人接受了治疗，其中一些人得到了帮助。
Francine used to originally claim that just one session would desensitize people and do it.
弗朗辛最初声称只需一次疗程就能使人们脱敏，并且确实做到了。
And that's clearly not true.
这显然不是真的。
I see a lot of people who said, "Yeah, it helped for a while, but I need more." So, I think it became a kind of overly simplistic approach to understanding brain physiology and that part is wrong.
我看到很多人说：“是的，它暂时有帮助，但我需要更多。”所以，我认为这成为一种过于简单化的理解大脑生理学的方法，而这部分是错误的。
And the interesting thing, you mentioned suppressing amygdala activity.
有趣的是，你提到抑制杏仁核活动。
It's very interesting; my late friend, Allan Hobson, who's a brilliant sleep research.
这很有趣；我已故的朋友艾伦·霍布森 (Allan Hobson)，他是一位出色的睡眠研究专家。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, sleep researcher from Harvard.
是的，哈佛大学的睡眠研究员。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, I don't know him, but I read his book when I was in college about the chemistry of sleep.
嗯，我不认识他，但我在大学时读过他关于睡眠化学的书。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And the similarities between dream states and hallucinations.
以及梦境和幻觉之间的相似之处。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it's one of the reasons I got into this.
这也是我参与其中的原因之一。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
Yes.
是的。
Well, I worked with him in a MacArthur Mind-Body network for many years.
嗯，我在麦克阿瑟身心网络中与他一起工作了很多年。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wow.
哇。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
He's a brilliant guy.
他是一个才华横溢的人。
Points out that we need to get into primarily a parasympathetic state to go to sleep.
指出我们主要需要进入副交感神经状态才能入睡。
That we have to shut off the sympathetic nervous system.
我们必须关闭交感神经系统。
And that's why a loud noise wakes you up and your heart rate goes up and all this.
这就是为什么巨大的噪音会把你吵醒，你的心率会加快等等。
So, he was brilliant at documenting what happens in the brain of sleep.
因此，他非常擅长记录睡眠时大脑中发生的情况。
He pointed out something also very interesting about dreams, which is that the stories in dreams and even the images in dreams can change all over the place in crazy ways.
他指出梦还有一个很有趣的地方，那就是梦中的故事甚至梦中的形象都可以疯狂地变化。
But usually the affect is constant.
但通常影响是恒定的。
He said, usually if it's a frustration dream, whatever happens, you wind up frustrated.
他说，通常如果这是一个沮丧的梦，无论发生什么，你都会感到沮丧。
And if it's a enjoyment dream, you enjoy whatever's going on.
如果这是一个享受的梦，你就会享受正在发生的一切。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
So, there's an odd consistency and affect in the dreams that you don't have in other states.
所以，梦中有一种奇怪的一致性和影响力，这是你在其他州所没有的。
And the idea of lateral eye movements suppressing amygdala activity would kind of fit with that.
眼球横向运动抑制杏仁核活动的想法与此相符。
That you don't allow intrusions of fear and anger and upset, It may be there all the time, but it may not be there when you think it should be.
你不允许恐惧、愤怒和不安的侵入，它可能一直存在，但当你认为它应该存在时，它可能并不存在。
So, why is it that you can be falling off a building and somehow not that scared?
那么，为什么你从建筑物上摔下来却并不那么害怕呢？
You're just having this experience of flying in a dream.
你只是在梦中体验飞翔的感觉。
So, I think there may be something going on about regulating affect, but we have elaborate and better ways to regulate affect.
所以，我认为调节情感可能会发生一些事情，但我们有更详细、更好的方法来调节情感。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
So, EMDR might incorporate some elements of hypnosis.
因此，EMDR 可能包含催眠的一些元素。
So the lateralized eye movements, perhaps by way of suppressing the amygdala, this fear-associated center, might bring people into a more parasympathetic calm state.
因此，偏侧眼球运动，也许是通过抑制杏仁核（这个与恐惧相关的中心）的方式，可能会让人们进入副交感神经更加平静的状态。
So, it might be pseudo hypnosis and then an exposure therapy through the discussion about the issue.
所以，这可能是伪催眠，然后通过讨论这个问题进行暴露疗法。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
More research needed on EMDR out there.
需要对 EMDR 进行更多研究。
And obviously something that's come up a lot in this discussion and in our discussions that — I have the great fortune of talking to you every week and working together — is this idea of getting close to the phobia, getting close to the trauma, re-experiencing it as a portal to then adjusting the response to it and rewiring something.
显然，在这次讨论和我们的讨论中——我有幸每周与你们交谈并一起工作——中经常出现的事情是接近恐惧症、接近创伤、重新体验它作为门户，然后调整对它的反应并重新布线的想法。
So the troubling thing, or the horrible thing is no longer as horrible to us, but that the repeating theme is we can't expect to get over something without getting really close to it, maybe even experiencing it somatically.
因此，令人不安的事情，或者可怕的事情对我们来说不再那么可怕，但重复的主题是，我们不能指望在没有真正接近它的情况下克服它，甚至可能在身体上体验它。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Nowadays, we hear a lot about triggers and trigger warnings, and certainly one can understand why those exist.
如今，我们听到很多有关触发器和触发器警告的内容，当然人们也能理解它们为何存在。
But it seems like in the general population, there's this idea that we want to move away from anything that upsets us.
但在一般人群中，似乎有这样一种想法，即我们想要远离任何让我们不安的事物。
And yet I think it's fair to say, even though I haven't gathered the statistics, that on the whole, human beings are becoming more and more anxious and more and more stressed.
但我认为可以公平地说，尽管我没有收集统计数据，但总体而言，人类正变得越来越焦虑，压力越来越大。
Perhaps because of, but certainly in parallel with the fact that we're trying to move away from troubling things, troubling things.
也许是因为，但肯定与我们正在努力摆脱令人烦恼的事情这一事实同时发生。
So, I've heard you say before that in terms of therapeutic approaches, it's not just about the state you get into, but whether or not you brought yourself there voluntarily.
所以，我以前听您说过，就治疗方法而言，重要的不仅仅是您进入的状态，而是您是否自愿进入该状态。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
That's exactly right.
完全正确。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So, this element of deliberate self-exposure, deciding, "I'm going to confront the trauma, I'm going to confront the pain, I'm going to confront the insomnia, I'm going to confront the, fill in the blank." And then readjusting one's emotional response right up next to that troubling thing.
所以，这种刻意的自我暴露的元素，决定，“我要面对创伤，我要面对痛苦，我要面对失眠，我要面对，填补空白。”然后在遇到令人不安的事情时重新调整自己的情绪反应。
That seems to be the hallmark of this treatment, and if I'm thinking about it correctly, of pretty much all treatments for getting over stuff.
这似乎是这种治疗方法的标志，如果我的想法正确的话，这也是几乎所有克服困难的治疗方法的标志。
If people don't have access to a really good clinician like yourself, how should they carry these thoughts and these ideas?
如果人们无法接触到像您这样真正优秀的临床医生，他们应该如何携带这些想法和想法？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think almost everybody of any reasonable age has memories or things that upset them, but we learn to suppress them.
我认为几乎每个合理年龄的人都有让他们不安的记忆或事情，但我们学会压制它们。
What does one do?
一个人做什么？
Obviously the Reveri app has approaches to dealing with some of this inside of the app, but how does one start to think about actually dealing with something like this and avoiding the hazards of just reactivating a lot of painful experiences?
显然，Reveri 应用程序有办法在应用程序内部处理其中的一些问题，但如何开始考虑实际处理此类问题并避免重新激活大量痛苦经历的危险呢？
Because a lot of being a functional human being is also going to work each day, interacting with people, and not bringing one's trauma and dumping it out all on the table, or being able to just function is so crucial.
因为作为一个有功能的人，很多人每天都要工作，与人互动，而不是把自己的创伤全部倾倒在桌面上，或者能够正常工作是非常重要的。
So, how do you think about this as a clinician?
那么，作为临床医生，您如何看待这个问题？
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
Well, the image that comes to mind is the Greek myth of Pandora's box, that it opened and the furies got out and you couldn't put them back in.
好吧，我脑海中浮现出的形象是希腊神话中的潘多拉盒子，盒子打开后，愤怒的女神就出去了，你无法将它们放回去。
And we have this fantasy that once you get into these memories, they'll take you over and you'll never get them back in the box.
我们有这样的幻想：一旦你进入这些记忆，它们就会控制你，而你永远不会把它们放回盒子里。
And I think that's wrong.
我认为这是错误的。
People who use hypnosis say that there are ways to present things to people that will be helpful and ways that won't.
使用催眠术的人说，向人们展示事物的方法有一些有帮助，也有一些没有帮助。
And one real mistake is to tell someone, "Don't think about purple elephants." What are you thinking about?
一个真正的错误是告诉某人“不要考虑紫色大象”。你在想什么？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Purple elephants.
紫色大象。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
It doesn't work.
这不起作用。
So, you want to find a way to feel in control of the access and to define what happened on your own terms.
因此，您希望找到一种方法来控制访问并按照自己的方式定义发生的情况。
And so I'm not a big fan of trigger warnings.
所以我不太喜欢触发警告。
I think we're going crazy over, "This could be upsetting.
我想我们快要疯了，“这可能会让人心烦意乱。
That could be upsetting."
这可能会令人不安。”
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
There are lots of things that are upsetting.
有很多事情令人心烦意乱。
The average kid has watched 20,000 murders by the time he's 20 years old watching television and movies these days.
如今，平均每个孩子在 20 岁时通过电视和电影观看过 20,000 起谋杀案。
So, we see terrible things.
所以，我们看到了可怕的事情。
And it's not a matter of are you exposed to something that's upsetting, but how do you handle it?
问题不在于你是否接触过令人不安的事情，而在于你如何处理它？
What do you make of it?
你觉得怎么样？
And are you feeling in control?
你感觉一切都在掌控之中吗？
It's not like what Putin is doing to his rival in Russia, forcing him to watch propaganda movies 10 hours a day while he is in prison.
这不像普京对待他在俄罗斯的对手那样，强迫他在监狱里每天看10个小时的宣传电影。
It's a matter of thinking about a problem in a way that leaves you feeling you understand it better.
这是以一种让你感觉自己更好地理解问题的方式思考问题的问题。
You're in more control ...
你的控制力更强...
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
In a way that leaves you feeling you understand it better, you're in more control, you can turn it off when you want, you can turn it on when you want.
在某种程度上，让你感觉你更好地理解它，你有更多的控制权，你可以在你想要的时候关闭它，你可以在你想要的时候打开它。
And so we have to, in life, deal with stressful things.
因此，在生活中，我们必须处理有压力的事情。
There are studies, Karen Parker at Stanford has done some wonderful studies with primates about stress inoculation that if you separate a baby monkey from his mother for two hours a day and then reunite them and then you stress that baby monkey later, they actually handle stress better.
有研究表明，斯坦福大学的凯伦·帕克对灵长类动物进行了一些关于压力接种的精彩研究，如果你每天将一只小猴子与它的母亲分开两个小时，然后让它们团聚，然后你稍后给小猴子施加压力，它们实际上会更好地处理压力。
There's less cortisol arousal in the face of the stress.
面对压力时，皮质醇的唤起会减少。
Stress inoculation, it's been called.
这就是所谓的“压力接种”。
So mere exposure to trauma or stress, it's a part of living anyway.
因此，仅仅遭受创伤或压力，无论如何都是生活的一部分。
We can't avoid it even if we'd like to.
即使我们愿意，我们也无法避免它。
And it's not pleasant, it's not great, but it's sometimes things you need to learn about life.
这并不令人愉快，也不是很好，但有时你需要了解生活的一些事情。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
And if you can find an algorithm for facing it, putting it into perspective, dealing with it, you become a stronger person, not a weaker person.
如果你能找到一种算法来面对它、正确看待它、处理它，你就会成为一个更强大的人，而不是一个更弱的人。
So this idea that college students are such fragile flowers that if you talk about a sexual assault or something, you're doing something terrible to them, it's just wrong.
因此，认为大学生是脆弱的花朵，如果你谈论性侵犯之类的事情，你就是在对他们做一些可怕的事情，这是错误的。
And I think we need to build our ability to recognize and manage stress.
我认为我们需要培养识别和管理压力的能力。
And you can't do that without doing it.
如果不这样做，你就无法做到这一点。
You can't ride a bicycle without taking the risk of falling off it.
骑自行车时必须冒着从自行车上摔下来的风险。
And so I think that's the way I think of dealing with stress.
所以我认为这就是我处理压力的方式。
PART 3 OF 4 ENDS Andrew Huberman:
第 3 部分（共 4 部分）结束 Andrew Huberman：
Yeah, I really appreciate you saying that.
是的，我真的很感谢你这么说。
You and I were both at a gathering, let's say, where this issue was being discussed and around an issue of a publicized sexual trauma, and you made an excellent case for why this stuff can't be pushed under the rug.
比方说，你和我都参加了一次聚会，当时正在讨论这个问题，并且围绕着一个公开的性创伤问题，你提出了一个很好的案例来说明为什么这些事情不能被掩盖起来。
And that actually, in my observation, led to a lot of healing for the people and the families of people that suffered from this.
事实上，根据我的观察，这给遭受这种痛苦的人和家人带来了很大的治愈。
And I do think people are resilient, but we don't really teach how to think about feelings.
我确实认为人们是有弹性的，但我们并没有真正教如何思考感受。
We're told that we need to feel our feelings.
有人告诉我们，我们需要感受自己的感受。
But then again, we are also told that feelings don't hold all the information.
但话又说回来，我们也被告知感觉并不能包含所有信息。
And so I think that, as you mentioned, there's no operating or user's manual for this nervous system thing.
所以我认为，正如您所提到的，对于神经系统的事情没有操作或用户手册。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Brings me to another issue, which is the mind-body connection, something that we're very interested in and you've done extensive work on.
让我想到另一个问题，那就是身心联系，我们对此非常感兴趣，并且您已经在这方面做了大量工作。
We all like to think that getting more in touch with our body would be a great thing, learning to intercept, paying attention to our internal landscape would be a great thing.
我们都喜欢认为更多地接触我们的身体将是一件很棒的事情，学习拦截、关注我们的内部景观将是一件很棒的事情。
But as we often discuss, when we're feeling lousy, then being really in touch with that lousy feeling may or may not be a good thing, right?
但正如我们经常讨论的那样，当我们感觉糟糕时，真正接触这种糟糕的感觉可能是好事，也可能不是好事，对吧？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So how should we think about mind-body?
那么我们应该如何思考身心呢？
I can see examples in hypnosis from your descriptions of hypnosis where you want to unify the mind-body connection, feel what you're thinking, think what you're feeling, et cetera.
我可以从你对催眠的描述中看到催眠的例子，你想要统一身心联系，感受你在想什么，思考你的感受，等等。
But I could also point to elements within the hypnotic process in which you are actively trying to uncouple those.
但我也可以指出催眠过程中你积极尝试将这些因素分开的元素。
So it sounds to me like this whole mind-body thing is a bit more like a car.
所以在我看来，这整个身心的东西更像是一辆汽车。
You can't say that 40 miles per hour is the optimal speed.
你不能说每小时 40 英里就是最佳速度。
It kind of depends on the road you're on and the turn you may or may not be taking.
这在某种程度上取决于您所在的道路以及您可能会或可能不会采取的转弯。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
How should we think about mind-body in terms of navigating daily life?
在日常生活中我们应该如何思考身心？
What do you think is the adaptive way to conceptualize the mind-body?
您认为概念化身心的适应性方式是什么？
It's a big question, but-
这是一个大问题，但是——
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
It is, it's a very interesting one.
是的，这是一个非常有趣的。
I guess I think that it's a matter not of absolute control, but more control, that we need to think of our brain as a tool and our body signals as tools as well to help us understand what's going on in the world, what we need, what matters, what's important, what isn't, but also something that can be managed, not simply absorbed.
我想我认为这不是绝对控制的问题，而是更多控制的问题，我们需要将我们的大脑视为一种工具，将我们的身体信号视为工具，以帮助我们了解世界上正在发生的事情，我们需要什么，什么是重要的，什么是重要的，什么是不重要的，而且是可以管理的东西，而不是简单地吸收。
And so hypnosis I think is a kind of limiting case where you can push it about as far as we can push it in terms of regulating pain.
因此，我认为催眠是一种极限情况，在调节疼痛方面，你可以尽可能地推动它。
Pain is a good example of that.
疼痛就是一个很好的例子。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
Obviously, you need to pay attention.
显然，你需要注意。
If you just broke your ankle, you better pay attention to it and get help.
如果你刚刚扭伤了脚踝，你最好注意并寻求帮助。
Or you're having crushing substernal chest pain, you better do something about it.
或者你有剧烈的胸骨后疼痛，你最好采取一些措施。
But our brain is sort of programmed to treat all pain signals as if they were novel pain signals, if it's a sudden new problem that needs to be attended to.
但我们的大脑在某种程度上被编程为将所有疼痛信号视为新的疼痛信号（如果这是一个需要处理的突然新问题）。
I teach people to think of the pain and categorize it.
我教人们思考疼痛并将其分类。
Does the pain mean that if you put weight on this, you're going to reinjure your ankle, for example?
疼痛是否意味着如果你在上面施加重量，你的脚踝就会再次受伤？
Or does it simply mean that your body is healing, and the pain is a sign that gradually things are getting back to normal?
或者这仅仅意味着你的身体正在康复，疼痛是一切逐渐恢复正常的迹象？
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
And so you can modify the way you process pain based on what your brain tells you the pain means.
因此，您可以根据大脑告诉您疼痛的含义来修改处理疼痛的方式。
And that's true for emotional pain as well.
对于情感上的痛苦也是如此。
And particularly where I think a strategy that really helps is if you think of an interpersonal problem or a threat of something coming as an opportunity to do something to ameliorate the situation.
尤其是我认为真正有帮助的策略是，如果你将人际关系问题或某件事的威胁视为采取行动改善情况的机会。
So it's not just it's happening to you, but something that you can influence and do something about.
所以这不仅仅是发生在你身上的事情，而且是你可以影响并采取行动的事情。
So it's blending the receptive with the active response that I think can make a difference.
因此，我认为将接受性与主动反应相结合可以产生影响。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
So you try and process it in a way that gives you a deeper understanding of what's happening.
因此，你尝试以一种能让你更深入地了解正在发生的事情的方式来处理它。
You face it, but you also say, "This is an opportunity for me to do something about it." And the minute you realistically ...
你面对它，但你也说：“这是我为此做点什么的机会。”当你现实地...
and this doesn't mean imagine away a heart attack, it means figure out how to rehabilitate from a heart attack or a broken leg or something like that in a way that you get as much control into the situation as you can.
这并不意味着想象远离心脏病发作，而是意味着弄清楚如何从心脏病发作或腿部骨折或类似的情况中康复，以尽可能多的方式控制情况。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I love it.
我喜欢它。
Grief.
悲伤。
Grief is one of those states that is very hard to remove oneself from.
悲伤是一种很难摆脱的状态。
And a lot of people ask me, "How do I deal with grief?" And I'm not a clinician, so I'm deferring to you.
很多人问我：“我该如何处理悲伤？”我不是临床医生，所以我听从你的意见。
On the one hand ...
一方面...
Actually, someone at Stanford recently came to me and said, "My mother passed away, and I had a sibling that passed away, and they were the only people that I had.
事实上，斯坦福大学的一个人最近来找我说：“我的母亲去世了，我的一个兄弟姐妹也去世了，他们是我唯一的亲人。
And I'm also living alone, and I'm challenged with a number of things." And they looked like they were holding it together, very well, in fact, given what they were describing.
而且我也是一个人住，我面临着很多事情的挑战。”事实上，考虑到他们所描述的内容，他们看起来似乎正在团结一致，事实上，非常好。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And on the one hand, well, I certainly point out that I'm not a clinician, but I said, "On the one hand, you could imagine that it would be necessary and useful to go into the grief state if you want to transition through it."
一方面，我当然指出我不是临床医生，但我说，“一方面，你可以想象，如果你想过渡到悲伤状态，那么进入悲伤状态是必要且有用的。”
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
On the other hand, I've heard before that the cathartic model of just really diving into an emotion can also be potentially hazardous if you don't have any anchors to grab onto.
另一方面，我以前听说过，如果你没有任何锚点可以抓住，那么真正投入情感的宣泄模式也可能具有潜在的危险。
What is the view of psychiatry or your view of grief and how to deal with grief?
精神病学的观点或您对悲伤的看法以及如何处理悲伤？
Because I think grief is one of those all-encompassing emotions for many people.
因为我认为悲伤是许多人的包罗万象的情感之一。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
Yeah.
是的。
It is, and it's a very important, natural, necessary stage of life.
确实如此，而且这是生命中一个非常重要、自然、必要的阶段。
And the reason we have all these grief rituals from burials and memorials and headstones and sitting shiva and other things that people do, it's a way of making it real, that an incomprehensible loss has to be comprehended.
我们之所以有所有这些悲伤仪式，包括葬礼、纪念馆、墓碑、坐湿婆以及人们所做的其他事情，这是一种让它成为现实的方式，必须理解一种难以理解的损失。
You have to realize that you're now going to have to live life without your loved one, your parent, your sibling, whoever.
你必须意识到，你现在将不得不在没有你所爱的人、你的父母、你的兄弟姐妹或任何人的情况下生活。
And we've all go gone through this at one time or another.
我们都曾经经历过这样的事情。
I certainly have.
我当然有。
And it's very hard to just come to terms with, but one principle is to sort of say, it's never all or none, it's more or less.
很难接受这一点，但有一个原则可以说，它从来不是全部或全部，而是或多或少。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
So yes, it's all or none that you've lost a loved one.
所以，是的，你要么失去了所爱的人，要么失去了一切。
But I ask people as part of their grieving to say to themselves, and I do this in hypnosis sometimes too, "You've lost them, but what have they left you with?
但我要求人们在悲伤时对自己说，有时我也在催眠中这样做，“你失去了他们，但他们给你留下了什么？
What have they bequeathed to you, even though they're gone?" And I'll sometimes ask them to say, "If your mother could be here right now, what would she say to you?
即使他们已经不在了，他们却给你留下了什么？”有时我会让他们说：“如果你妈妈现在就在这里，她会对你说什么？
How would she feel about your life now?
她现在对你的生活有何感想？
What would she advise you to do?" So in our support groups for women with advanced breast cancer, we lost people.
她会建议你做什么？”因此，在我们为晚期乳腺癌女性提供的支持小组中，我们失去了一些人。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
And I got to tell you that we were warned by oncologists that we demoralize people that ...
我必须告诉你，肿瘤学家警告我们，我们会让人们士气低落……
I mean, there were wonderful oncologists, but there were some that were very afraid that we would harm them in some way because the mortality rate is fairly high with metastatic breast cancer.
我的意思是，有很棒的肿瘤学家，但有些人非常担心我们会以某种方式伤害他们，因为转移性乳腺癌的死亡率相当高。
They're going to watch people die of the same disease, and you'll demoralize them.
他们会看着人们死于同样的疾病，而你会让他们士气低落。
So we actually measured their emotion and the content of speech every five minutes throughout a bunch of groups to make sure that wasn't happening.
因此，我们实际上每五分钟测量一次一组群体的情绪和演讲内容，以确保这种情况不会发生。
What we found was that they talked about more serious issues, but the mood didn't actually get worse.
我们发现他们谈论了更严重的问题，但情绪实际上并没有变得更糟。
And we found in general that expressing negative emotion on the long run helps people be less anxious and depressed over time.
我们发现，总的来说，从长远来看，表达负面情绪可以帮助人们随着时间的推移减少焦虑和抑郁。
And we've shown this in randomized clinical trials.
我们已经在随机临床试验中证明了这一点。
So it's not just my clinical impression.
所以这不仅仅是我的临床印象。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
And what we try to get them to do is to face a loss, live with the emotion that comes with it, but also see that the reason it hurts so much is how much that person gave you.
我们试图让他们做的就是面对损失，承受随之而来的情感，但也要看到，让他们如此痛苦的原因是那个人为你付出了多少。
So we would do a self-hypnosis exercise at the end of the group and say, "I want you to get your body floating safe and comfortable.
因此，我们会在小组结束时进行自我催眠练习，并说：“我希望你的身体能够安全舒适地漂浮。
Now picture Mary and sit with the feeling of sadness that she's no longer with us." And we do that for a few minutes.
现在想象一下玛丽，坐在她身边，为她不再和我们在一起而感到悲伤。”我们这样做了几分钟。
And then we'd say, "On the other side, picture one thing she left with you that you still have, that you carry on in your heart, her tradition of what she gave to you." And so just seeing it not as a complete loss, but as a real loss, a painful loss, but one that helps you to reflect on what you gained from her and knowing her, I think, can be very helpful in the grieving process.
然后我们会说，“另一方面，想象一下她留给你的一件你仍然拥有的东西，你在心里继续着她给你的传统。”因此，我认为，不要将其视为完全的损失，而是真正的损失，痛苦的损失，但可以帮助您反思从她那里获得的东西并了解她，这对悲伤的过程非常有帮助。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's very helpful way to conceptualize it.
这是概念化它的非常有用的方式。
Couple quick questions, can children be safely hypnotized or do self-hypnosis?
几个简单的问题，孩子可以安全催眠还是自我催眠？
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
It's sometimes harder for them to do self-hypnosis.
有时对他们来说自我催眠比较困难。
They need more structure to do it.
他们需要更多的结构来做到这一点。
You've got to share your dorsolateral prefrontal cortex with them a little bit.
你必须与他们分享一点你的背外侧前额叶皮层。
But yes, absolutely.
但是，是的，绝对是的。
Children can be very hypnotizable, and I know pediatricians who use it wonderfully all the time.
孩子们很容易被催眠，我认识的儿科医生一直都在使用它。
They get them to focus on something else.
他们让他们专注于其他事情。
So they're going to have to give them a shot or draw blood or something, and they'll say, "I'm going to press your happy button," and presses their belly button, and they start to giggle the way kids do.
所以他们必须给他们打一针或抽血什么的，然后他们会说，“我要按下你的快乐按钮”，然后按下他们的肚脐，然后他们开始像孩子一样咯咯地笑。
And meanwhile, the nurse is drawing the blood, and they don't even notice it.
与此同时，护士正在抽血，他们甚至没有注意到。
Dentists, good dentists can use it to help kids with fear and pain.
牙医，好的牙医可以用它来帮助孩子克服恐惧和疼痛。
So yes, it can be very effective for children.
所以是的，它对儿童非常有效。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
We did a randomized trial.
我们做了一项随机试验。
I have a publication in Pediatrics; my late sister who was a pediatrician, and who always used to joke that she was the only one in our family who was a real doctor, I said, "I gotcha.
我有一份儿科出版物；我已故的姐姐是一名儿科医生，她总是开玩笑说她是我们家里唯一一个真正的医生，我说，“我明白了。
I got a paper in Pediatrics," and the paper was children having to undergo avoiding cystourethrograms.
我收到了一篇儿科论文”，论文内容是儿童必须接受避免性膀胱尿道造影。
The anatomy of the kidney, if you'll forgive me, is sort of interesting in that the ureter that goes into the bladder normally goes into the bladder at an angle.
请原谅我，肾脏的解剖结构有点有趣，因为进入膀胱的输尿管通常以一定角度进入膀胱。
And so that means that when the bladder contracts to expel urine, it automatically closes off the ureter because it's sideways to the bladder.
这意味着当膀胱收缩排出尿液时，它会自动关闭输尿管，因为它位于膀胱的侧面。
Some kids are born with it perpendicular, and then you'll get reflux into the kidney.
有些孩子出生时它是垂直的，然后你就会回流到肾脏。
And some children outgrow it, some need pretty complicated surgery to fix that.
有些孩子随着年龄的增长会不再有这种情况，有些则需要相当复杂的手术来解决这个问题。
And so you image them every year or so to see whether they're getting kidney damage or not.
因此，您每年左右都会对它们进行成像，看看它们是否受到肾脏损伤。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
And it's a pretty miserable experience.
这是一次非常痛苦的经历。
You're a nine-year-old girl, you have to go and lie on a hard cold table, have strangers pull your legs apart and stick a catheter into your urethra and hold in the bladder and then expel urine.
你是一个九岁的女孩，你必须去躺在坚硬冰冷的桌子上，让陌生人把你的双腿分开，将一根导尿管插入你的尿道，卡住膀胱，然后排出尿液。
And so you get into these struggling fights.
于是你就陷入了这些挣扎的斗争中。
And of course, the more they struggle, the more they constrict, and it makes it harder to do it.
当然，他们越挣扎，就越压抑，就越难做到。
So I was asked if we could test it.
所以有人问我是否可以测试一下。
So we did a randomized trial at Children's Hospital.
所以我们在儿童医院做了一项随机试验。
They either got training in self-hypnosis, I would meet with them and the mother the week before.
他们要么接受自我催眠训练，我会在前一周与他们和母亲见面。
We find out from the kids where they like to be.
我们从孩子们那里了解他们喜欢去哪里。
And I'd say, "You're going to play a trick on your doctors.
我会说：“你会欺骗你的医生。
Your body's there.
你的身体就在那里。
You're somewhere else.
你在别的地方。
Go visit your friend, go to Disneyland, do something else." And the mother would work on this with me at the head of the table.
去拜访你的朋友，去迪士尼乐园，做点别的事情。”母亲会和我一起做这件事。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
And we found that these children were much easier to image.
我们发现这些孩子更容易想象。
One got so relaxed that, so the guy, he said, "Normally it takes us 10 minutes to get them to pee after they're doing this.
一个人变得如此放松，所以那个人，他说，“通常我们需要 10 分钟才能让他们在这样做后小便。
She was so relaxed, she started peeing before I could even get the bed pan under her, and I had to clean up the table." And they also, 17 minutes shorter procedures.
她太放松了，我什至还没来得及把便盆放到她下面，她就开始撒尿了，我不得不清理桌子。”他们还缩短了 17 分钟的手术时间。
And that's a long 17 minutes for a little kid.
对于一个小孩子来说，这 17 分钟是漫长的。
So it can be very effective with children.
所以它对孩子来说非常有效。
They're less anxious, they have less pain and get through these difficult procedures very well.
他们不那么焦虑，更少痛苦，并且能够很好地完成这些困难的手术。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's great.
太好了。
Has hypnosis ever been done for couples, like couples therapy?
是否曾经对夫妻进行过催眠，例如夫妻治疗？
I'm thinking of pretty much every clinical setting here.
我几乎想到了这里的每一个临床环境。
Both people have to be hypnotizable, of course.
当然，两个人都必须能够被催眠。
But the reason I ask about this is next I'm going to ask about psychedelics.
但我问这个的原因是接下来我要问关于迷幻药的问题。
And there's a lot of interest in coordinating states through the use of drugs of different kinds.
人们对通过使用不同种类的药物来协调各国有着很大的兴趣。
We actually do this when we treat depression.
当我们治疗抑郁症时，我们实际上就是这样做的。
You have a depressed person with family members who are not depressed and you say, "Well, let's make them all not depressed." Right?
你有一个抑郁的人，他的家人并不抑郁，你说：“好吧，让我们让他们都不再抑郁。”正确的？
But in all ...
但总的来说...
And I'm only half kidding there because that is kind of the underlying logic in some sense.
我只是半开玩笑，因为这在某种意义上是潜在的逻辑。
But are you aware of any coordinated hypnosis?
但你知道有协调催眠吗？
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
That's interesting.
这很有趣。
I've done plenty of it in groups, not with couples.
我在团体中做过很多这样的事情，而不是与情侣一起做。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You can hypnotize large groups at once?
你可以一次催眠一大群人吗？
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
Yeah, yeah.
是啊是啊。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Are we hypnotized right now?
我们现在被催眠了吗？
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
Yeah, you are.
是的，你是。
And I hope you've been enjoying it.
我希望你喜欢它。
But the metastatic breast cancer, it was a group of 10 women who would meet once a week, and we would all go into hypnosis together.
但是转移性乳腺癌，是由 10 名女性组成的小组，每周见面一次，我们都会一起进入催眠状态。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I didn't realize that you were hypnotizing them collectively.
我没有意识到你把他们集体催眠了。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
Yes, yes.
是的，是的。
Right.
正确的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Fascinating.
令人着迷。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
And if anything, I think it brings out the best in people's abilities because it's a shared social experience, and they would talk about it afterwards.
如果说有什么不同的话，我认为它可以发挥人们最好的能力，因为这是一种共享的社交体验，他们会在事后谈论它。
And so yes, that's absolutely doable, yeah.
所以是的，这绝对可行，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I don't want to focus on psychedelics specifically.
我不想专门关注迷幻药。
Maybe that's a topic for a future episode, but is there any basis for combining hypnosis with drug therapies inside of the hypnotic episode?
也许这是未来剧集的主题，但是在催眠剧集中将催眠与药物治疗相结合是否有任何基础呢？
So I realize that some patients of yours might be prescribed a antidepressant or medication for some purpose, maybe same or different than the hypnosis is being directed toward.
所以我意识到，您的一些患者可能会出于某种目的而服用抗抑郁药或药物，可能与催眠所针对的目的相同或不同。
But is there any evidence that if people are relaxed through the use of a propranolol or one of these many things in the psychiatrist's kit, that hypnosis can be more effective?
但是否有任何证据表明，如果人们通过使用普萘洛尔或精神科医生工具箱中的众多药物中的一种来放松，催眠会更有效？
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
Well, interestingly, one study that I haven't mentioned is we did spectroscopy on people who were hypnotized.
嗯，有趣的是，我没有提到的一项研究是我们对被催眠的人进行了光谱分析。
And we found that there was a correlation between hypnotizability and GABA activity in the anterior cingulate cortex, which fits with turning down activity.
我们发现催眠能力和前扣带皮层的 GABA 活性之间存在相关性，这与降低活性相符。
So to the extent that we can self-medicate, and GABA receptors basically are doing what benzodiazepines do to the brain, that can happen when people are hypnotized.
因此，在我们可以自我治疗的情况下，GABA受体基本上就像苯二氮卓类药物对大脑所做的那样，当人们被催眠时，就会发生这种情况。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So you're saying inside of the hypnosis, you have neural evidence that there's a kind of a sedative effect of hypnosis at the chemical level?
所以你是说在催眠内部，你有神经证据表明催眠在化学水平上有一种镇静作用？
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
Yeah, right.
是的，对。
Right.
正确的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Amazing.
太棒了。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
That people who are more hypnotizable have more of those GABA receptives, and it's related to the degree of their hypnotizability.
更容易被催眠的人有更多的GABA受体，这与他们的易催眠程度有关。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Fascinating.
令人着迷。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
In terms of, there have been studies where they try to give people medications as well.
就这方面而言，也有研究尝试给人们提供药物。
And the interesting thing with benzodiazepines, which activate inhibitory activity in the brain, if you are very anxious, it might improve your hypnotic response a bit.
有趣的是，苯二氮卓类药物会激活大脑的抑制活动，如果你非常焦虑，它可能会稍微改善你的催眠反应。
If you're just so anxious and jittery, you can't do it.
如果你只是如此焦虑和紧张，你就做不到。
If you're not very anxious, it actually inhibits hypnotic activity because you get sort of sedated and just out of it and you can't focus your attention as well.
如果你不是很焦虑，它实际上会抑制催眠活动，因为你会进入镇静状态，然后就无法集中注意力。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
So by and large, we don't use drugs as an adjuvant to hypnotic experience.
所以总的来说，我们不使用药物作为催眠体验的辅助剂。
Most of the time, you don't need to.
大多数时候，你不需要这样做。
And sometimes it can make it worse rather than better.
有时它会让事情变得更糟而不是更好。
There's some evidence that mild stimulants might enhance hypnotic responsiveness a little reliably, but too much, well, again, scatter attention and you'll have less control over it.
有一些证据表明，温和的兴奋剂可能会稍微可靠地增强催眠反应，但太多，嗯，再次，会分散注意力，你对它的控制也会减弱。
So they might be adjuvants, but I frankly think hypnosis is more of a replacement than in need of supplementation.
所以它们可能是辅助剂，但坦率地说，我认为催眠更多的是一种替代，而不是需要补充。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Your laboratory and my laboratory have, well, sort of snuck into your lab and trying to merge the two.
你的实验室和我的实验室已经潜入你的实验室并试图将两者合并。
It's been a lot of fun and-
这很有趣而且——
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
It sure has.
确实有。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
we're learning a lot about the power of respiration, of breathing to shift brain states, not just during breathing protocols, but at all times.
我们正在了解很多关于呼吸的力量，以及呼吸改变大脑状态的力量，不仅是在呼吸过程中，而是在任何时候。
And we will do an entire episode about those protocols, I think-
我想我们将制作一整集关于这些协议的节目——
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
Cool.
酷。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
after those are published and so on.
发布后等等。
But breathing itself you've described as a bridge between conscious and unconscious states.
但你将呼吸本身描述为有意识和无意识状态之间的桥梁。
And so I have to ask, how important is the patient's breathing pattern?
所以我不得不问，病人的呼吸模式有多重要？
How closely are you monitoring their breathing pattern?
您对他们的呼吸模式的监测程度如何？
How closely do you monitor your own breathing pattern as you're inducing hypnosis?
当你进行催眠时，你有多密切地监控自己的呼吸模式？
Put simply, what is the role of respiration in shifting the brain's state during a hypnotic protocol?
简而言之，呼吸在催眠过程中改变大脑状态中的作用是什么？
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
Yeah, that's very interesting.
是的，这很有趣。
You had a great show with Jack.
你和杰克一起表演了一场精彩的表演。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, Jack Feldman.
是的，杰克·费尔德曼。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
Feldman.
费尔德曼.
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, I think he's terrific.
是的，我认为他很棒。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
He is.
他是。
And the issue, I watch it, I try ...
这个问题，我看着它，我尝试......
The work that we're enjoying doing together shows that there are breathing patterns that may increase sympathetic arousal or may decrease it, may ...
我们喜欢一起做的工作表明，有些呼吸模式可能会增加或可能减少交感神经兴奋，可能......
Cyclic sighing seems to actually, where you have more time spent exhaling than inhaling.
循环叹息似乎实际上是这样，你呼气的时间比吸气的时间多。
And there's reason to believe that it induces parasympathetic activity because you're increasing pressure in the chest and therefore allowing the heart to slow down because blood is being returned to the atrium more easily.
我们有理由相信它会引起副交感神经活动，因为你会增加胸部压力，从而使心脏减慢，因为血液更容易返回心房。
I do use it, I ask people to take a deep breath as part of the induction and then slowly exhale.
我确实使用它，我要求人们深呼吸作为诱导的一部分，然后慢慢呼气。
And partly as a result of our research together, I'm emphasizing the slow exhale more as part of, to enhance the idea in the induction that this is a period of relaxation because I think they are inducing that and perhaps perceiving it as well.
部分由于我们共同研究的结果，我更多地强调缓慢呼气，以增强诱导中的想法，这是一个放松的时期，因为我认为他们正在诱导这一点，也许也感知到它。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
So there there's no ...
所以没有...
You're absolutely right that breathing is very interesting because it's right at the edge of conscious.
你说得对，呼吸非常有趣，因为它处于意识的边缘。
And Jack talked about that too, of conscious and unconscious control, that it will go on automatically, but we can control it.
杰克也谈到了有意识和无意识的控制，它会自动进行，但我们可以控制它。
And so it's a kind of way for us to demonstrate to ourselves greater ways of modulating our internal state.
因此，这是我们向自己展示调节内部状态的更好方法的一种方式。
So you can either do it thinking about it the way we do with pain control and hypnosis, or you can do it to some extent by taking charge of your breathing and doing things that will produce a change that you want to see happen in your body.
因此，你可以像我们控制疼痛和催眠那样思考，或者你可以在某种程度上通过控制你的呼吸并做一些会产生你希望看到在你的身体发生的变化的事情来做到这一点。
So I like it because it's right at that margin where you can enhance.
所以我喜欢它，因为它就在你可以增强的边缘。
For me, I like that as a way of augmenting hypnosis more than medication.
对我来说，我更喜欢将其作为增强催眠的一种方式，而不是药物治疗。
I think this is a powerful way of doing that.
我认为这是实现这一目标的有效方法。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Great.
太棒了。
I'm really excited to see where all of this goes.
我真的很高兴看到这一切的发展方向。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Breathing, vision, bodily states, clearly the ...
呼吸、视觉、身体状态，显然……
and directed mental focus seem to be the key elements of hypnosis.
定向精神集中似乎是催眠的关键要素。
Am I missing any other ingredients?
我还缺少其他成分吗？
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
Yeah, I think that's right.
是的，我认为这是对的。
It's ...
这是...
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Breathing, vision.
呼吸，视野。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
...
...
breathing, vision, how you change your vision.
呼吸、视力、你如何改变你的视力。
And you don't ...
而你不...
Typically, you're in a physically relaxed state, but frankly there are people at the peak of performance, including physical athletic performance or musical performance, when they're in hypnotic states too.
通常情况下，您处于身体放松的状态，但坦率地说，有些人在处于催眠状态时也处于表现的巅峰，包括体育运动表现或音乐表演。
I've talked to classical pianists who say, "If I start thinking about what my fingers are doing now, I screw up.
我和古典钢琴家交谈过，他们说：“如果我开始思考我的手指现在在做什么，我就会搞砸。
I'm floating above the piano, thinking about the tone that I want to feel exuding from the instrument."
我漂浮在钢琴上方，思考着我想要从乐器中感受到的音色。”
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
So that's a hypnotic-like state too.
所以这也是一种类似催眠的状态。
And many athletes who are in peak performance are just flowing with it.
许多处于巅峰状态的运动员只是顺其自然。
They're not thinking step by step, "What am I doing?" And that's when you're doing your best.
他们不会一步步思考“我在做什么？”那就是你尽力而为的时候。
Or when we're working or giving a talk and doing it well, we're in a hypnotic-like state, so it usually requires, but doesn't necessarily require physical comfort or quietness.
或者当我们工作或演讲并做得很好时，我们处于类似催眠的状态，因此通常需要但不一定需要身体舒适或安静。
It can sometimes be intense activity.
有时可能是剧烈的活动。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Incredible.
难以置信。
Well, this has been an amazing discussion.
嗯，这是一次很棒的讨论。
I've learned so much, as I always do from you.
我从你那里学到了很多东西，就像往常一样。
Where can people learn more about how they can get hypnotized?
人们可以在哪里了解更多关于如何被催眠的信息？
We mentioned Reveri.
我们提到了雷维里。
We will put a link to it, it's reveri.com is the way to access that.
我们将放置一个链接，通过 reveri.com 即可访问该链接。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
Or it's the Reveri app from the App Store is the other way.
或者是 App Store 中的 Reveri 应用程序。
Reveri.com is the website.
Reveri.com 是网站。
You can get to it through that or download the Reveri app from the App Store.
您可以通过该链接或从 App Store 下载 Reveri 应用程序。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Great.
太棒了。
So currently on Apple, hopefully soon also on Android.
目前在 Apple 上运行，希望很快也能在 Android 上运行。
But in the meantime, what if people are interested in exploring clinical hypnosis working with you or somebody similar?
但与此同时，如果人们有兴趣与您或类似的人一起探索临床催眠怎么办？
Is there a centralized resource that people can go to find really well-trained hypnotists?
是否有一个集中的资源可以让人们找到真正训练有素的催眠师？
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
There are two good professional organizations that will help you with that.
有两个优秀的专业组织可以帮助您。
One is the Society for Clinical and Experimental Hypnosis, and I think that's sceh.us is their .
其中之一是临床和实验催眠协会，我认为 sceh.us 就是他们的 。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay, we'll look it up and provide a link.
好的，我们会查找并提供链接。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
And the American Society for Clinical Hypnosis.
以及美国临床催眠协会。
And they both provide referral services for professionals.
他们都为专业人士提供转介服务。
You can look it up.
你可以查一下。
I would just say in general, look for someone who is licensed and trained in their primary professional discipline, psychiatry, psychology, medicine, dentistry, and who has training and interest in using hypnosis is a way to do it.
我只想说，一般来说，寻找在其主要专业学科、精神病学、心理学、医学、牙科方面获得许可并接受过培训的人，并且接受过使用催眠培训并对使用催眠感兴趣的人是一种方法。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Great.
太棒了。
And then one more question and then a comment.
然后还有一个问题，然后是一条评论。
The question is, will you be my psychiatrist?
问题是，你愿意当我的心理医生吗？
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
I'm honored.
我很荣幸。
I'm honored.
我很荣幸。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's a tall task.
这是一项艰巨的任务。
I might be the most stubborn patient.
我可能是最顽固的病人。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
I think the hardest work's already been done, Andrew.
我认为最困难的工作已经完成，安德鲁。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thank you.
谢谢你。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
You're fine.
你很好。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Appreciate that.
很欣赏这一点。
Well, and the final thing is a comment.
好吧，最后一件事是评论。
First of all, thank you so much for being here today, for sharing-
首先，非常感谢您今天来到这里，分享——
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
You're welcome.
不客气。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
your knowledge.
你的知识。
I hope we can do it again and again.
我希望我们能够一次又一次地这样做。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
I hope so.
我希望如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I love working with your laboratory and with you.
我喜欢与您的实验室以及与您一起工作。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
Likewise.
同样。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because when you speak, I learn and I learn, and I know others do as well.
因为当你说话时，我不断地学习，而且我知道其他人也是如此。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
Thank you.
谢谢你。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We will put resources to get to you, but I also just want to say thank you for doing the work that you do.
我们将投入资源来联系您，但我也只想对您所做的工作表示感谢。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
Well, thank you.
嗯，谢谢。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's an incredible thing that in this world where we are discovering so much about how the body works, the mind is still rather mysterious and people are struggling with a lot of things.
这是一件令人难以置信的事情，在这个我们对身体如何运作有了如此多了解的世界上，心灵仍然相当神秘，人们正在与很多事情作斗争。
But also I think people are really excited about applying tools like hypnosis to perform better, feel better mentally and physically.
但我也认为人们对于应用催眠等工具来表现得更好、在精神和身体上感觉更好感到非常兴奋。
And so you've pointed us to a tremendous amount of resources and how these tools work and where they've already been demonstrated to work.
因此，您向我们指出了大量的资源以及这些工具的工作原理以及它们已被证明可以发挥作用的地方。
So just thank you.
所以只是谢谢你。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
Thank you.
谢谢你。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I know this is your life's ...
我知道这是你一生的...
professional commitment in life, and we all benefit, so thank you so much.
生活中的专业承诺，我们都受益，非常感谢。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
Well, thank you.
嗯，谢谢。
But it's been a real joy for me to be collaborating with you, and for you to be using your precision and knowledge about neuroanatomy, neurobiology to address problems that often people who are that disciplined in the primary neurobiological end aren't as interested in as you are.
但对我来说，与你们合作真的很高兴，你们能够利用你们在神经解剖学、神经生物学方面的精确性和知识来解决那些在初级神经生物学领域受过训练的人通常不像你们那么感兴趣的问题。
And so it's really been a pleasure to try and bring together what we both know from these different perspectives to build something that neither of us could do alone.
因此，尝试将我们从不同角度所了解的知识结合起来，打造出我们都无法单独完成的东西，真的很高兴。
And so it's been a real joy for me to do it.
所以我真的很高兴能做到这一点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thank you.
谢谢你。
I'm honored.
我很荣幸。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
Thank you.
谢谢你。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thank you very much, David.
非常感谢你，大卫。
David Spiegel:
大卫·斯皮格尔：
You're welcome.
不客气。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thank you for joining me today for my discussion with Dr. David Spiegel.
感谢您今天加入我与大卫·斯皮格尔博士的讨论。
I hope you found it as fascinating as I did.
我希望你和我一样觉得它很有趣。
And if you'd like to see the video of Dr. Spiegel hypnotizing me in what constitutes an abbreviated clinical hypnosis session, you can go to the Huberman Lab Clips channel on YouTube.
如果您想观看 Spiegel 博士在简短的临床催眠会议中催眠我的视频，您可以访问 YouTube 上的 Huberman Lab Clips 频道。
Also, if you'd like to check out the Reveri app for self-hypnosis, designed by Dr. Spiegel and colleagues, you can go to reveri, that's R-E-V-E-R-I, dot com to see the Reveri app.
另外，如果您想查看由 Spiegel 博士及其同事设计的 Reveri 应用程序，用于自我催眠，您可以前往 reveri（即 R-E-V-E-R-I，.com）查看 Reveri 应用程序。
There's also other information there about the scientific studies that support the Reveri app.
还有有关支持 Reveri 应用程序的科学研究的其他信息。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
If you're enjoying and/or learning from this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel.
如果您喜欢此播客和/或从中学习，请订阅我们的 YouTube 频道。
That's a terrific zero-cost way to support us.
这是支持我们的绝佳零成本方式。
In addition, please subscribe to the podcast on Apple and/or Spotify.
此外，请订阅 Apple 和/或 Spotify 上的播客。
And on Apple, you have the opportunity to leave us up to a five-star review.
在苹果上，您有机会给我们五星级的评价。
Please also leave us comments and feedback, as well as suggestions for guests that you'd like us to host on the Huberman Lab podcast in the comments section on our YouTube channel.
还请在我们的 YouTube 频道的评论部分留下评论和反馈，以及对您希望我们在 Huberman Lab 播客上主持的嘉宾的建议。
Please also check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning of today's episode.
另请查看今天节目开头提到的赞助商。
That's the best way to support this podcast.
这是支持这个播客的最佳方式。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
If you're not already following us on Instagram and Twitter, please do so.
如果您还没有在 Instagram 和 Twitter 上关注我们，请立即关注。
It's Huberman Lab on both Instagram and Twitter.
Instagram 和 Twitter 上的名称均为 Huberman Lab。
And at those channels, I cover science and science-related tools, some of which overlap with the content of this podcast, other of which does not and is unique content.
在这些频道中，我介绍了科学和与科学相关的工具，其中一些与该播客的内容重叠，另一些则没有，并且是独特的内容。
So once again, thank you for joining me for my discussion with Dr. David Spiegel.
再次感谢您参加我与大卫·斯皮格尔博士的讨论。
And last but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.
最后但并非最不重要的一点是，感谢您对科学的兴趣。
PART 4 OF 4 ENDS
第 4 部分（共 4 部分）结束