Dr. David Linden: Life, Death & the Neuroscience of Your Unique Experience

大卫·林登博士：你独特经历的生、死和神经科学

2023-08-21 | 官方页面 YouTube 官方音频

This transcript version is not in its final form and will be updated.

该文字记录版本并非最终版本，将会更新。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Welcome to the Huberman Lab Podcast, where we discuss science and science based tools for everyday life.

欢迎来到休伯曼实验室播客，我们在这里讨论科学和基于科学的日常生活工具。

I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.

我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。

Today, my guest is Dr. David Linden.

今天，我的嘉宾是大卫·林登博士。

Dr. David Linden is a professor of neuroscience at Johns Hopkins School of Medicine.

大卫·林登博士是约翰·霍普金斯大学医学院的神经科学教授。

His laboratory has studied neuroplasticity.

他的实验室研究了神经可塑性。

That is how connections in the brain change in response to experience.

这就是大脑中的连接如何根据经验而变化。

Much of that work focused on a structure called the cerebellum, which is also sometimes referred to as the mini brain because it looks like a mini brain in the bottom and back of the human brain.

大部分工作都集中在称为小脑的结构上，它有时也被称为迷你大脑，因为它看起来像人脑底部和后部的迷你大脑。

And it's responsible for an enormous number of basic functions that we use in everyday life including our motor behavior, that is our ability to walk and talk, but also dance, play instruments.

它负责我们日常生活中使用的大量基本功能，包括我们的运动行为，即我们走路和说话的能力，还有跳舞、演奏乐器的能力。

And it's responsible for an enormous number of basic functions that we use in everyday life, including our sense of balance, our ability to learn new motor behaviors, as well as our sense of timing.

Today, we will discuss the cerebellum and what it does.

今天，我们将讨论小脑及其作用。

But Dr. David Linden will also teach us about the important sense of touch, as well as what makes us different as individuals.

但大卫·林登博士也会教我们重要的触觉，以及是什么让我们作为个体与众不同。

The reason today's discussion encompasses so many important topics is that Dr. David Linden's laboratory has focused on many of those topics, and he is also the author of five excellent popular books about neuroscience that focus on, for instance, our sense of pleasure and where it originates from and what controls it in the brain, as well as our sense of touch.

今天的讨论之所以涵盖如此多的重要主题，是因为大卫·林登博士的实验室重点关注了其中的许多主题，而且他也是五本关于神经科学的优秀畅销书的作者，这些书重点关注我们的快乐感、它的起源、大脑中控制快乐感的因素，以及我们的触觉。

And today, we start off our discussion by talking about the recent discovery of a set of neurons that have been known about for a long period of time, but that only recently have been characterized, that are involved in sensual touch in particular.

今天，我们首先讨论最近发现的一组神经元，这些神经元早已为人所知，但直到最近才被表征，特别是与感官触摸相关的神经元。

And it's a fascinating conversation, I assure you.

我向你保证，这是一次引人入胜的对话。

In addition to that, Dr. David Linden informs us about what makes us individuals, how each and every one of us perceives the same things differently.

除此之外，大卫·林登博士还告诉我们，是什么使我们成为个体，以及我们每个人如何以不同的方式看待同一件事。

And it's an absolutely fascinating conversation which tells you, for instance, why some of you think a smell is putrid, indeed smells like vomit, whereas others, perhaps are not bothered by that smell, and why others still are attracted to that smell or something that you look at or something that you hear.

这是一场绝对引人入胜的对话，它告诉你，为什么有些人认为某种气味是腐烂的，实际上闻起来像呕吐物，而另一些人可能并不被这种气味所困扰，以及为什么其他人仍然被那种气味或你看到的东西或你听到的东西所吸引。

We also talk about nature versus nurture and how we come to be who we are, not just through our genes and epigenetics, but also through our early childhood experience and adult experience.

我们还讨论先天与后天的关系，以及我们如何成为现在的自己，不仅通过我们的基因和表观遗传学，还通过我们的早期童年经历和成人经历。

And then in the latter third of our conversation, we shift to talking about the so called mind-body connection and the science underlying how our thoughts inform our bodily health, or lack thereof.

As well as how the organs of our body control the chemicals, hormones, and thoughts within our brain.

以及我们身体的器官如何控制大脑内的化学物质、激素和思想。

Then we shift to discussing Dr. David Linden himself and the fact that in 2020, he was diagnosed with a form of heart cancer that led his physicians to tell him that he had six to twelve months to live.

然后我们转而讨论大卫·林登医生本人，以及以下事实：2020 年，他被诊断出患有一种心脏病，导致他的医生告诉他，他的生命只剩下六到十二个月了。

Now, obviously, because he was in our studio to record this conversation, he has outlived that prognosis.

现在，显然，因为他在我们的工作室录制了这次谈话，所以他已经超越了这一预测。

But he lives day to day with the knowledge that his death may very well come soon, although it isn't clear exactly when that day will come, of course.

但他日复一日地生活着，他知道自己的死亡很可能很快就会到来，当然，目前还不清楚那一天具体何时到来。

He tells us how the initial prognosis of his cancer, as well as outliving that prognosis, has informed his day to day life, as well as his thinking and his relationships.

他告诉我们，他的癌症的最初预后以及预后如何影响他的日常生活、思维和人际关系。

And that leads to a very direct and frankly, emotional conversation that includes advice on how all of us can get the most out of our daily living and out of our overall life.

这导致了一场非常直接、坦率、充满情感的对话，其中包括关于我们所有人如何充分利用日常生活和整体生活的建议。

It's an extremely powerful conversation that I believe everyone, regardless of age or health status, can benefit from.

这是一次非常有力的对话，我相信每个人，无论年龄或健康状况如何，都可以从中受益。

And it's one that makes clear that not only is Dr. David Linden a spectacular scientist, but also a spectacular educator, a spectacular popular writer, a spectacular family man, including husband and father and friend to many people and his colleagues, but he is also a courageous and spectacularly generous human being.

这清楚地表明，大卫·林登博士不仅是一位出色的科学家，而且是一位出色的教育家、一位出色的受欢迎作家、一位出色的家庭男人，包括许多人和他的同事的丈夫、父亲和朋友，而且他也是一个勇敢和极其慷慨的人。

Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.

在开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。

It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science related tools to the general public.

然而，我的愿望和努力的一部分是向公众提供有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本消费者信息。

In keeping with that theme, I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast.

为了与这个主题保持一致，我要感谢今天播客的赞助商。

Our first sponsor is ROKA.

我们的第一个赞助商是ROKA。

ROKA makes eyeglasses and sunglasses that are of the absolute highest quality.

ROKA 生产绝对最高品质的眼镜和太阳镜。

The company was founded by two all American swimmers from Stanford, and everything about ROKA eyeglasses and sunglasses were designed with performance in mind.

该公司由两位来自斯坦福大学的美国游泳运动员创立，ROKA 眼镜和太阳镜的所有设计均以性能为考量。

I've spent a lifetime working on the biology of the visual system, and I can tell you that your visual system has to contend with an enormous number of challenges in order for you to be able to see clearly.

ROKA understands those challenges and the biology of the visual system such that they've designed sunglasses and eyeglasses that always allow you to see with crystal clarity.

ROKA 了解这些挑战和视觉系统的生物学原理，因此他们设计的太阳镜和眼镜始终能让您清晰地看到东西。

Now, initially, ROKA eyeglasses and sunglasses were designed for sports performance, and as a consequence, all of their glasses are designed to be very lightweight and to not slip off your face if you get sweaty.

现在，最初，ROKA 眼镜和太阳镜是为运动表现而设计的，因此，他们所有的眼镜都设计得非常轻巧，并且在出汗时不会从脸上滑落。

However, the design of the glasses include some that are specifically for sport and others whose aesthetic really allows you to use them for sport as well.

As out to dinner or to work, etc. And that's how I use them.

比如出去吃饭或者去上班等等。这就是我使用它们的方式。

If you'd like to try ROKA eyeglasses and sunglasses, you can go to roka.com, that's roka.com and enter the code HUBERMAN to save 20% off your first order.

Again, that's ROKA, roka.com, and enter the code HUBERMAN at checkout.

再次强调，这是 ROKA，roka.com，并在结账时输入代码 HUBERMAN。

Today's episode is also brought to us by Levels.

今天的节目也是Levels给我们带来的。

Levels is a program that lets you see how different foods and behaviors affect your health by giving you real time feedback on your diet using a continuous glucose monitor.

One of the most important factors impacting your immediate and long term health is the way that your body manages its blood glucose, or sometimes referred to as blood sugar levels.

To maintain energy and focus throughout the day, you want to keep your blood glucose steady without big spikes or dips.

为了全天保持精力充沛和注意力集中，您希望血糖保持稳定，不出现大幅波动。

Using Levels, you can monitor how different types of foods and different food combinations, as well as food timing and things like exercise, combine to impact your blood glucose levels.

使用“水平”，您可以监测不同类型的食物和不同的食物组合，以及进食时间和运动等因素如何结合起来影响您的血糖水平。

I started using Levels a little over a year ago and it gave me a lot of insight into how specific foods were spiking my blood sugar and then leaving me feeling tired for several hours afterwards, as well as how the spacing of exercise and my meals was impacting my overall energy.

And in doing so, it really allowed me to optimize how I eat, what I eat, when I exercise, and so on, such that my blood glucose levels and energy levels are stable throughout the day.

If you're interested in learning more about Levels and trying a continuous glucose monitor yourself, go to levels.link/huberman.

如果您有兴趣了解有关 Levels 的更多信息并亲自尝试连续血糖监测仪，请访问levels.link/huberman。

Right now, Levels is offering an additional two free months of membership.

目前，Levels 额外提供两个月免费会员资格。

Again, that's levels.link/huberman to get two free months of membership.

同样，通过levels.link/huberman 可以获得两个月的免费会员资格。

We are always striving to make the Huberman Lab Podcast better, and to that end, we need your help.

我们始终致力于让 Huberman 实验室播客变得更好，为此，我们需要您的帮助。

Over the next month we are going to be carrying out a survey.

下个月我们将进行一项调查。

The purpose of the survey is to improve the Huberman Lab Podcast according to your feedback.

该调查的目的是根据您的反馈改进 Huberman 实验室播客。

We put together a brief survey to understand what you love about the podcast.

我们整理了一份简短的调查来了解您对播客的喜爱程度。

Hopefully you love a few things at least, or maybe just one thing, as well as what you think could be improved, or perhaps the many things that you think could be improved about the Huberman Lab Podcast.

Basically what we are asking is to get your feedback so that we can improve any and all things about the Huberman Lab Podcast.

基本上，我们要求的是获得您的反馈，以便我们可以改进有关 Huberman 实验室播客的所有内容。

The survey does not take long and every single response will be reviewed as a thank you for completing the survey.

该调查不会花费很长时间，每一条回复都将被审核，以感谢您完成调查。

We are offering two months free of the Huberman Lab Premium channel.

我们提供两个月免费的 Huberman Lab Premium 频道。

If you're already a member of the Huberman Lab Premium channel, do not worry.

如果您已经是 Huberman Lab Premium 频道的会员，请不用担心。

You will get an additional two free months for carrying out this survey.

您将获得额外两个月的免费时间来进行这项调查。

You can find the link to the survey in the show notes for this podcast episode and on our website, hubermanlab.com.

您可以在本播客节目的节目说明和我们的网站 hubermanlab.com 上找到该调查的链接。

So if you would be so kind as to take a few minutes to fill out the survey and help us continue with bringing you the best possible content here at the Huberman Lab Podcast.

And as always, thank you for your interest in science.

一如既往，感谢您对科学的兴趣。

And now for My discussion with Dr. David Linden.

现在我与大卫·林登博士进行讨论。

Professor Linden, welcome.

林登教授，欢迎光临。

David Linden: Thanks so much for having me.

大卫·林登：非常感谢你邀请我。

Andrew Huberman: I've been looking forward to our conversation, and we have a lot to talk about.

Andrew Huberman：我一直期待着我们的谈话，我们有很多话要谈。

David Linden: We do.

大卫·林登：我们愿意。

Andrew Huberman: Lots of different aspects of science, lots of different aspects of personal journey, and what you're confronting now as it relates to your health and your future.

I want to start off with a question that I learned from the one and only, the great Karl Deisseroth, who was the first guest on this podcast, my colleague at Stanford.

And for those of you that don't recognize Karl's name, he is a absolute phenom.

对于那些不认识卡尔名字的人来说，他绝对是一位杰出人物。

He's a active clinical psychiatrist.

他是一位活跃的临床精神病学家。

So he's an MD.

所以他是一名医学博士。

And he also is a bioengineer who's developed a lot of the modern tools for probing the brain.

他也是一名生物工程师，开发了许多用于探测大脑的现代工具。

And anytime I've met with Karl, the first thing he says is, what are you most excited about lately?

每当我见到卡尔时，他说的第一句话就是，你最近最兴奋的是什么？

David Linden: That's a good question.

大卫·林登：这是个好问题。

Andrew Huberman: It is.

安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。

So I'm going to steal that approach and say, what are you most excited about lately?

所以我要借鉴这个方法，问你最近最兴奋的是什么？

David Linden: Well, very, very lately.

大卫·林登：嗯，非常非常最近。

The most interesting thing that I read in neuroscience Is the answer to a scientific problem that I think is really dear to a lot of people's hearts.

我在神经科学领域读到的最有趣的东西是对一个科学问题的答案，我认为这个问题对于很多人来说都是非常重要的。

And that is, what are the nerve endings in the genitals that are responsible for sexual sensation?

也就是说，生殖器中负责性感觉的神经末梢是什么？

And if you think about it right, people can feel sexy from being touched on lots of different parts of the body.

如果你想得对，人们会因为触摸身体的许多不同部位而感到性感。

But there's something special about the genitals.

但生殖器有一些特别之处。

Doesn't matter.

没关系。

male or female or intersex or gay or straight or bi or whatever you are, the genitals are a hotspot.

无论你是男性、女性、双性人、同性恋、异性恋还是双性恋，无论你是什么，生殖器都是一个热点。

And why?

为什么？

And you'd think as biologists, we'd know this by now, this would be something we could just answer.

你可能会认为，作为生物学家，我们现在已经知道了这一点，这将是我们可以回答的问题。

But It's been a mystery for a long time.

但这长期以来一直是个谜。

And if you go back to 1860, there was a German neuroanatomist named Krause, and he cut thin sections of tissue from the penis and the clitoris, and he looked at them under the microscope and he saw a particular kind of nerve ending there that has since been called the Krause corpuscle.

And there were lots of them in these two places.

而且这两个地方的人也不少。

And so he thought, well, maybe this is the cellular basis of sexual sensation.

所以他想，好吧，也许这就是性感觉的细胞基础。

Maybe these are the particular nerve endings that are responsible for this.

也许这些是造成这种情况的特殊神经末梢。

But there were some things that were in favor of that and some not.

但有些事情支持这一点，有些则不支持。

So these nerve endings are also in some other places that people can find more or less sexy, like they're in the nipples and they're in the lips and they're in the anus, all places that get popular in that domain, but they're also in places like the cornea or the lining of the joints.

因此，这些神经末梢也存在于其他一些人们或多或少性感的地方，比如它们在乳头、嘴唇和肛门，所有在该领域流行的地方，但它们也存在于角膜或关节内层等地方。

So distribution doesn't quite make sense.

所以分配不太有意义。

And so it was never known.

所以它从来不为人所知。

And so if you wanted to really test as a scientist whether these nerve endings are responsible, you want to record their electrical signals while the genitals are being touched.

因此，如果你想作为一名科学家真正测试这些神经末梢是否负责，你需要在触摸生殖器时记录它们的电信号。

You'd want to inactivate these cells and see if you could interfere with sexual sensation.

您需要灭活这些细胞，看看是否会干扰性感觉。

And this, in a preprint from David Ginty's group at Harvard, is just what they have been able to do in mice.

在哈佛大学 David Ginty 小组的预印本中，这正是他们在老鼠身上所做的事情。

They found a way to label and record from and activate and inactivate artificially the Krause corpuscles.

他们找到了一种方法来标记和记录克劳斯小体，并人工激活和灭活克劳斯小体。

You see a nerve ending in the skin.

您会看到皮肤中的神经末梢。

It could be conveying all kinds of information.

它可以传达各种信息。

It could be tuned for hot or for cold or for itch or for pain or for inflammation or for mechanical sensation, stretching, vibration, indentation.

And sure enough, when they recorded from these Krause corpuscles, they really are mechanical sensors, as you would expect if they were involved in sexual sensation.

果然，当他们记录这些克劳斯小体时，它们确实是机械传感器，正如你所期望的，如果它们涉及性感觉。

So that was good.

所以那很好。

And then the other thing then what they did is they tried to artificially turn them on.

然后他们所做的另一件事是他们试图人为地打开它们。

And so the way they did that is they used genetic tricks to express one of Karl Deisseroth's molecule that activates neurons when blue light is shown on them.

他们的做法是利用基因技巧来表达 Karl Deisseroth 的一种分子，当蓝光照射到神经元上时，该分子会激活神经元。

And they found that if they express this artificial protein in the Krause cells in a male mouse and then shine blue light, the mouse gets an erection.

他们发现，如果在雄性小鼠的克劳斯细胞中表达这种人工蛋白，然后发出蓝光，小鼠就会勃起。

All right, so far, so good.

好吧，到目前为止，一切都很好。

What happens if you turn them off?

如果你把它们关掉会发生什么？

Well, if you turn them off in a male mouse, it's just as interested in females when they're in heat, but it won't mount and thrust and ejaculate as much.

好吧，如果你在雄性老鼠身上关闭它们，当雌性老鼠发情时，它也会对它们感兴趣，但它不会那么频繁地爬上、推挤和射精。

And if you turn them off in a female mouse during the time of her cycle where she would normally be sexually receptive, you find that she is much less interested, she's much less likely to let him mount.

She's much less likely to let him finish.

她不太可能让他把话说完。

So this is the remarkable result that finally, after all these years, since 1860, now we know what the nerve endings are that convey sexual sensation.

所以这是一个了不起的结果，自 1860 年以来，经过这么多年，现在我们终于知道了传达性感觉的神经末梢是什么。

And like all good science, then there are a lot of questions that are really interesting to our everyday lives.

就像所有优秀的科学一样，有很多问题对我们的日常生活来说非常有趣。

Like, people like different things in bed and have different propensity for orgasm or like to be touched in different ways.

例如，人们在床上喜欢不同的东西，对性高潮有不同的倾向，或者喜欢以不同的方式被触摸。

Well, is part of that reason because of individual variation in their Krause corpuscle structure?

那么，这个原因的一部分是因为克劳斯小体结构的个体差异吗？

We know that sexual sensation diminishes with aging.

我们知道，性感觉会随着年龄的增长而减弱。

Is that in part because Krause corpuscle density is lost from the skin of the genitals?

这部分是因为生殖器皮肤失去了克劳斯小体密度吗？

And that's a reasonable idea because we know, for example, that fine touch sensors in the fingertips, so called Merkel and Meissner endings, also named after German anatomists, like so many things, are, are also lost with age.

这是一个合理的想法，因为我们知道，指尖的精细触摸传感器，即所谓的默克尔和迈斯纳末端，也以德国解剖学家的名字命名，就像许多东西一样，也会随着年龄的增长而消失。

So that's a reasonable idea.

所以这是一个合理的想法。

So this finding from Ginty's lab has opened up a whole world of science.

金蒂实验室的这一发现开辟了一个完整的科学世界。

And my own lab doesn't work on touch.

我自己的实验室不支持触摸。

But I've been a fanboy of touch for many, many years, mostly because where I work at Johns Hopkins Medical School, there have been many terrific touch researchers.

但多年来我一直是触摸的粉丝，主要是因为我在约翰·霍普金斯医学院工作，那里有很多出色的触摸研究人员。

It's been a world center for it, and I hear about it over lunch, and I got all fired up.

它一直是它的世界中心，我在午餐时听说了它，我感到非常兴奋。

So years ago, I wrote a book about it, and I still follow the field.

几年前，我写了一本关于它的书，现在我仍然关注这个领域。

And this is the most interesting thing in that field recently.

而这也是最近该领域最有趣的事情。

Andrew Huberman: And as I recall, Ginty was your neighbor at Hopkins before he moved to Harvard.

安德鲁·休伯曼：我记得，在搬到哈佛之前，金蒂是你在霍普金斯大学的邻居。

David Linden: That's right.

大卫·林登：没错。

He was one of the ones.

他就是其中之一。

Ginty, Steven Chiu, Michael, Katerina, Xinjiang Dong.

金蒂、史蒂文·邱、迈克尔、卡特琳娜、董新疆。

There have been a number of world leaders in the cellular basis of touch sensation at Hopkins.

霍普金斯大学在触觉细胞基础方面有许多世界领先者。

Andrew Huberman: Do you recall if, in the pre print that you were describing, there was an experiment where they activated these Krause corpuscles in females?

安德鲁·休伯曼：你还记得你所描述的预印本中是否有一项实验，他们激活了女性的这些克劳斯小体吗？

David Linden: It's funny you should mention that.

大卫·林登：你提到这一点很有趣。

I sent that exact email to David Ginty, and they said, they are in the process of doing that right now, and they don't quite know yet.

我把那封电子邮件发给了大卫·金蒂，他们说，他们现在正在做这件事，但他们还不太清楚。

And so I asked him.

所以我问他。

I said, so, for example, is erection of the clitoris even a thing in mice?

我说，那么，比如说，阴蒂勃起在老鼠身上是不是也有？

He says, well, we're really not sure.

他说，好吧，我们真的不确定。

So we're activating the Krause corpuscle in female mice, and we're just kind of staring at it and looking and see if anything happens.

因此，我们激活雌性小鼠的克劳斯小体，我们只是盯着它看，看看是否会发生什么。

Does the body change shape?

身体会改变形状吗？

Is there a color change?

有颜色变化吗？

They don't even quite know what it is they're looking for because it's that much on the leading edge of things.

他们甚至不太知道自己在寻找什么，因为它处于事物的前沿。

But it's a good question.

但这是一个好问题。

Andrew Huberman: Or perhaps the female mice would be more willing to mate outside of the usual time frame of receptivity.

安德鲁·休伯曼：或者雌性小鼠可能更愿意在通常的接受时间范围之外交配。

If these Kraus corpuscles are stimulated, that's possible.

如果这些克劳斯小体受到刺激，这是可能的。

David Linden: My guess would be not, because I think that the hormonal regulation of receptivity is like a sledgehammer and very hard to overcome, but they might be more willing to continue mating or mate for longer during their fertile time.

大卫·林登：我的猜测不会，因为我认为荷尔蒙的接受性调节就像一把大锤，很难克服，但他们可能更愿意在受孕期间继续交配或交配更长时间。

Andrew Huberman: And I just want to remind people, because we had a guest recently, Dr. Rena Malik, who's a urologist, reproductive and sexual health expert.

安德鲁·休伯曼：我只是想提醒人们，因为我们最近有一位客人，雷纳·马利克博士，她是一位泌尿科医生、生殖和性健康专家。

She's an MD, and she made clear that the clitoris and the penis come from the same embryonic origin.

她是一名医学博士，她明确表示阴蒂和阴茎来自相同的胚胎起源。

They are analogous tissues in different individuals.

它们是不同个体的类似组织。

I do have one more question about this sexual touch thing.

关于性接触这件事，我还有一个问题。

These are peripheral nerves, right?

这些是末梢神经，对吗？

So these are not of the brain and spinal cord.

所以这些不是大脑和脊髓的。

They are in what we call the periphery.

他们处于我们所说的外围。

And my understanding is that peripheral neurons regenerate and can remodel themselves extensively in ways that neurons within the brain and spinal cord tend to remodel less, especially as one gets older out of the so called critical period.

我的理解是，周围神经元可以再生，并且可以广泛地重塑自身，而大脑和脊髓内的神经元往往重塑较少，尤其是当一个人在所谓的关键期之后变老时。

Is it possible that these Krause corpuscules and their patterns of innervation within the genitals change according to the stimulation that people experience?

这些克劳斯小体及其在生殖器内的神经支配模式是否有可能根据人们经历的刺激而改变？

In other words, is sexual sensation experience dependent?

换句话说，性感觉依赖于经验吗？

David Linden: That is a great question, and so we don't know because monitoring this in people is not technically possible.

大卫·林登：这是一个很好的问题，所以我们不知道，因为在人体中监测这一点在技术上是不可能的。

It requires cadaver tissue, so you can only do it once.

它需要尸体组织，所以你只能做一次。

In animals, it will be possible, and it could be for a couple of different reasons.

在动物身上，这是可能的，而且可能有几个不同的原因。

In other words, it could be.

换句话说，可能是这样。

I think what you're imagining is that there's actual structural plasticity.

我认为你想象的是存在实际的结构可塑性。

If you looked at these Krause corpuscles, or that you would actually see them changing their shape or their size or their density as a result of experience.

如果你观察这些克劳斯小体，或者你实际上会看到它们由于经验而改变形状、大小或密度。

But what can also happen is a phenomena like desensitization.

但也可能发生像脱敏这样的现象。

That is to say, when there's stimulation for a long time, then the receptors transiently can become less sensitive to touch.

也就是说，当刺激时间较长时，感受器会短暂地对触觉变得不那么敏感。

And it's well known, particularly in males, that chronic masturbation can produce desensitization of sexual sensation in the penis.

众所周知，尤其是男性，长期手淫会导致阴茎性感觉脱敏。

And that could be as a result of a physical change, a morphological change in the Krause corpuscles.

这可能是克劳斯小体物理变化、形态变化的结果。

But it's more likely to be a change in their function that you wouldn't be able to simply see by looking at an outline of their structure in the microscope.

但更有可能的是它们的功能发生了变化，而你无法简单地通过在显微镜下观察它们的结构轮廓来看到这种变化。

Andrew Huberman: Such an interesting topic.

安德鲁·休伯曼：这是一个有趣的话题。

Thanks for opening things up with that.

感谢您敞开心扉。

And I'll have to check out this preprint.

我得看看这个预印本。

I'm also a huge fan of David Ginty's work and colleagues.

我也是 David Ginty 的工作和同事的忠实粉丝。

There are many people involved in that domain of work, of course.

当然，有很多人参与该工作领域。

I'd like to talk about your recent book and the sort of underlying basis of what led you to write it and what intrigued you about this idea of human individuality.

我想谈谈你最近写的书，以及促使你写这本书的根本原因，以及是什么激起了你对人类个性这一概念的兴趣。

The book Unique is one that we'll provide a link to in the show note captions.

我们将在节目注释标题中提供《Unique》一书的链接。

And it's a very interesting idea that we are all different, especially coming from a neuroscientist who we were trained, at least similarly, to learn that, sure, the bumps and ripples of the brain and the fine wiring of the brain is different, and we are all unique and different.

这是一个非常有趣的想法，我们都是不同的，特别是来自一位神经科学家，我们接受过至少类似的培训，要知道，当然，大脑的颠簸和涟漪以及大脑的精细线路是不同的，而且我们都是独特的和不同的。

We have different shapes, aka morphologies.

我们有不同的形状，也称为形态。

But focusing on human individuality is not something that modern neuroscience or classic neuroscience has really done much of.

但关注人类个性并不是现代神经科学或经典神经科学真正做的事情。

It's really focused on how people do X or people do Y this way.

它真正关注的是人们如何做 X 或人们如何以这种方式做 Y。

Tell us about Unique and tell us about human individuality.

告诉我们“独特”，告诉我们人类的个性。

David Linden: Yeah, well, I mean, you're absolutely right.

大卫·林登：是的，我的意思是，你说得完全正确。

So when I look at the experiments in my own lab, how do we do them?

那么当我看到自己实验室的实验时，我们该如何做呢？

Well, we work on mice.

好吧，我们研究老鼠。

Do we work on mice with genetic variation?

我们是否对具有遗传变异的小鼠进行研究？

No, we work on highly inbred mice that are designed to be as genetically similar to each other as possible.

不，我们研究的是高度近交的小鼠，这些小鼠被设计成在基因上尽可能相似。

And then we raise them basically in prison, in little cells, which may not be a good idea, and we try to give them as similar experience as possible.

然后我们基本上在监狱里的小牢房里抚养他们，这可能不是一个好主意，我们尝试给他们尽可能相似的经历。

Andrew Huberman: They are given toys and food and water.

安德鲁·休伯曼：他们得到了玩具、食物和水。

But I agree, it resembles a prison of sorts.

但我同意，它就像一座监狱。

They aren't free to roam.

他们不能自由地漫游。

David Linden: They have nothing like the experience of a wild mouse, let me put it that way.

大卫·林登：我这么说吧，他们没有像野老鼠那样的经历。

And, yes, as you said correctly, there are plenty of experiments where there is enrichment for mice, and they love it.

是的，正如你所说的正确，有很多实验可以丰富小鼠的实验，而且它们喜欢这样。

So, for example, in our lab, when we put running wheels in the cages or mice and let them run overnight, they're active at night.

例如，在我们的实验室中，当我们将跑轮放入笼子或小鼠中并让它们运行过夜时，它们在晚上就会活跃。

Your average mouse will run 2 km in a night for a little tiny mouse.

对于一只小老鼠来说，普通老鼠每晚可以跑 2 公里。

And some of the mice are so intense, they will run 20 km.

而且有些老鼠非常激烈，它们会跑20公里。

Imagine a mouse doing 20K?

想象一下鼠标能跑 20K 吗？

But it will happen.

但这将会发生。

They really, really like it.

他们真的非常喜欢它。

They don't like being in prison.

他们不喜欢待在监狱里。

They want to exercise, and they're really bored.

他们想锻炼身体，但他们真的很无聊。

So, yes, to get back to your general point, so much of science is designed to try to find general principles of function of the brain, of physiology, of genetics, and to ignore individual variation.

所以，是的，回到你的一般观点，如此多的科学旨在试图找到大脑功能、生理学、遗传学的一般原理，并忽略个体差异。

But individual variation is so important to our human experience, and actually is so important to the process of evolution and natural selection and how species make their way in the world, that it's something that requires a lot of attention.

但个体差异对于我们人类的经验非常重要，实际上对于进化和自然选择的过程以及物种如何在世界上生存也非常重要，所以这是需要大量关注的事情。

And to me, what's really fascinating is that when you look at the variation in the way sense organs function.

It's almost a miracle that we can agree on a common reality at all, even within the human species.

即使在人类内部，我们能够就共同的现实达成一致，这几乎是一个奇迹。

And this is true of some senses more than others.

某些感官比其他感官更是如此。

Obviously, in your world, in the retina, we have various kinds of loss of color vision that are well known.

显然，在你们的世界里，在视网膜上，我们有各种众所周知的色觉丧失。

And some other more complicated phenomena having to do with impairments in the perception of motion or form.

还有一些其他更复杂的现象与运动或形式感知的障碍有关。

But the place where this really happens is in the olfactory system.

但真正发生这种情况的地方是嗅觉系统。

So we have approximately 400 functional receptors for different odorant molecule smells in our nose.

因此，我们的鼻子里有大约 400 个针对不同气味分子气味的功能受体。

And if you sequence the genomes of many people, you find that the DNA that encodes for these odorant receptors is unusually variable from individual to individual.

如果你对许多人的基因组进行测序，你会发现编码这些气味受体的 DNA 因人而异。

As a matter of fact, if you take two different people, on average, they will have functional differences in 30% of their odor receptors.

事实上，如果两个不同的人平均有 30% 的气味受体存在功能差异。

And if you do, as Leslie Vosshall and her colleagues did at Rockefeller University, and give odor tests where they give people different things to smell, and then they dilute them and find the threshold at which they can detect them, you find enormous changes from people to people, both in general terms.

如果你像莱斯利·沃斯霍尔和她在洛克菲勒大学的同事所做的那样，进行气味测试，让人们闻不同的东西，然后稀释它们并找到可以检测到它们的阈值，你会发现人与人之间发生了巨大的变化，无论是一般意义上的变化。

Some people are just better smellers than others.

有些人只是比其他人嗅觉更好。

But in terms of individual odors as well, there are some odors that some people can't detect, and other people smell one way.

但就个人气味而言，也有一些气味有些人无法察觉，而另一些人却闻到了一种气味。

For example, there's a secreted hormone called androstenone.

例如，有一种叫做雄烯酮的分泌激素。

Androstenone, there are some people who can't smell it at all.

雄烯酮，有些人根本闻不到它的味道。

For some people, it smells like rather pleasant, like cut grass.

对于某些人来说，它闻起来相当令人愉快，就像割草一样。

And for some people it smells foul, like urine or sweat.

对于某些人来说，它闻起来很臭，就像尿液或汗水一样。

And it just depends on genetic variation in one particular odorant receptor.

它仅取决于一种特定气味受体的遗传变异。

Andrew Huberman: Sorry to interrupt another phenomenal researcher who studies olfaction, among other things, Catherine Dulac.

安德鲁·休伯曼：很抱歉打扰另一位研究嗅觉等的杰出研究人员，凯瑟琳·杜拉克。

I once heard say that some people have a gene that for them makes the smell of microwave popcorn, they experience that smell as vomit.

我曾经听说，有些人有一种基因，可以让他们发出微波炉爆米花的味道，他们体验到那种味道就像呕吐物。

And other people who lack this gene, like the smell of microwave popcorn, or at least for them, it's not aversive.

而其他缺乏这种基因的人，喜欢微波炉爆米花的味道，或者至少对他们来说，并不厌恶。

So it can really be a binary response.

所以它确实可以是一个二元响应。

David Linden: Well, it can, and actually, that's a very particular funny case.

大卫·林登：嗯，它可以，实际上，这是一个非常特别有趣的案例。

So the relevant chemical there is butyric acid and also isovaleric acid.

因此相关的化学物质是丁酸和异戊酸。

And so there are researchers, I think Rachel Hertz is one of them, who have given a mixture of these two chemicals to people.

所以有些研究人员，我认为雷切尔·赫兹就是其中之一，他们向人们提供了这两种化学物质的混合物。

And if they say, this is Parmesan cheese, they go, oh, yeah, that's Parmesan cheese.

如果他们说，这是帕尔马干酪，他们就会说，哦，是的，那是帕尔马干酪。

And if they give it to other people and say, this is vomit, they'll go, oh, yeah, that's vomit.

如果他们把它给其他人并说，这是呕吐物，他们会说，哦，是的，那是呕吐物。

And if they tell people, they give them one vial and say, this is Parmesan cheese, and they go, yeah.

如果他们告诉人们，他们会给他们一小瓶并说，这是帕尔马干酪，他们就会说，是的。

And they give another one.

他们又给了一份。

They say, it's vomit.

他们说，这是呕吐物。

They go, yeah.

他们走了，是的。

And then they say, well, actually, we fooled you.

然后他们说，好吧，实际上，我们愚弄了你。

It was the same vial.

这是同一个小瓶。

They say, no, you didn't.

他们说，不，你没有。

You must have made a mistake.

你一定是犯了一个错误。

They're convinced that they couldn't have been the same thing.

他们确信他们不可能是同一件事。

So this points out, not only is there genetic variation that is responsible for how individuals perceive odor, but we are incredibly suggestible in terms of odors, and we are very dependent upon them in terms of cultural context.

因此，这表明，不仅基因变异决定了个体如何感知气味，而且我们在气味方面非常容易受到暗示，而且在文化背景方面我们非常依赖它们。

And this can be learned, and this is central to our humanity in the sense that we humans are what I like to call the anti-pandas.

这是可以学习的，这是我们人性的核心，因为我们人类就是我所说的反熊猫。

Pandas live in one spot in southern China, and they eat one thing, bamboo, and that's it.

大熊猫生活在中国南方的一个地方，它们只吃一种东西，竹子，仅此而已。

Humans are the opposite.

人类则相反。

Humans can live in any ecological niche in the world, from the Tropics to the Poles.

人类可以生活在世界上任何生态位，从热带到极地。

And humans eat a wide, wide, wide variety of foods.

人类吃的食物种类繁多。

And as a result, it means that we have to have a very plastic olfactory system.

因此，这意味着我们必须拥有一个非常可塑的嗅觉系统。

There have to be very few things that we find innately aversive.

我们天生厌恶的事情肯定很少。

There are only a handful of odors.

只有少数气味。

Rotting meat odors, molecules with the evocative names like cadaverine and putracine are things that even babies, when they're newborn, find aversive.

腐烂的肉味、尸胺和腐胺等名字令人回味的分子，即使是刚出生的婴儿也会感到厌恶。

But other things happen that they need to be learned.

但其他事情发生了，他们需要学习。

For example, pretty much every adult finds poop odors unpleasant.

例如，几乎每个成年人都觉得粪便气味令人不快。

But babies happily play with their own poop.

They have to learn that that's disgusting.

他们必须知道那是令人厌恶的。

It's not because babies have a different nose, it's because they have to learn culturally, not innate.

这并不是因为婴儿的鼻子不同，而是因为他们必须从文化上学习，而不是与生俱来。

It is not innate.

它不是与生俱来的。

There are only a few innate odor aversions and a few innate taste aversions that we're born with.

我们与生俱来，只有少数天生的气味厌恶和口味厌恶。

And the other things are elaborated culturally.

其他的事情都是从文化角度阐述的。

And we can think about this in terms of how we talk about odors.

我们可以从如何谈论气味的角度来思考这个问题。

So, for example, we might say vanilla smells sweet.

例如，我们可能会说香草闻起来很甜。

Well, that's weird.

嗯，这很奇怪。

Those are two different senses.

这是两种不同的感觉。

How can something smell sweet?

怎么会有甜甜的东西呢？

That's like saying it sounds red, right?

这就像说它听起来是红色的，对吧？

Andrew Huberman: It's a statement about synesthesia.

安德鲁·休伯曼：这是关于联觉的陈述。

David Linden: Right?

大卫·林登：对吗？

But how did it come to pass?

但它是怎么发生的呢？

And do people say that vanilla smells sweet everywhere in the world?

人们是否说世界各地的香草闻起来都是甜的？

Well, the answer is no. So in places in the world where vanilla is used with sugar, in sweet foods, like desserts, then people say that vanilla smells sweet, or mint similarly smells sweet if it is typically used together with sugar.

嗯，答案是否定的。因此，在世界上香草与糖一起用于甜食（例如甜点）的地方，人们会说香草闻起来很甜，或者如果薄荷通常与糖一起使用，那么薄荷也会类似地闻起来很甜。

But if you go to a place like Vietnam, where mint is mostly used in savory dishes, people won't say that mint smells sweet.

但如果你去越南这样的地方，薄荷主要用于咸味菜肴，人们不会说薄荷闻起来很甜。

Andrew Huberman: So there's a paired association there that, at least at our level of conscious understanding feeds back onto what we call olfactory or smell perception.

安德鲁·休伯曼：因此，至少在我们有意识的理解水平上，存在着一种成对的关联，这种关联会反馈到我们所说的嗅觉或嗅觉。

But really, it must be a paired association at some point in development.

但实际上，在发展的某个阶段，它一定是一个配对的关联。

David Linden: Yeah, it is.

It absolutely is a paired association.

这绝对是一个配对的关联。

And it's something that goes on continually through your life, right?

这是你一生中不断发生的事情，对吗？

I mean, lots of people, for example, have stories of foods that they wouldn't eat as a child, but they came to like as an adult.

我的意思是，例如，很多人都有他们小时候不吃的食物的故事，但成年后却开始喜欢。

A good example of that is coffee.

A lot of people have to overcome bitter aversion to become coffee aficionados.

许多人必须克服强烈的厌恶感才能成为咖啡爱好者。

So this feeds into the more general theme that there is no pure perception.

因此，这符合更普遍的主题：不存在纯粹的感知。

Perception is inference.

感知就是推理。

It's not like there is a purely objective world that can somehow make its way through the senses, and we can perceive that as the truth.

并不是存在一个纯粹的客观世界，可以以某种方式通过感官，我们可以将其视为真理。

All of our perception through all of our senses, both the outward pointing senses at the world, like smell and taste and sight and hearing, and the inward pointing senses like balance and is my stomach full and things like that.

我们通过所有感官进行的所有感知，包括对世界的向外指向的感官，如嗅觉、味觉、视觉和听觉，以及向内指向的感官，如平衡、我的肚子饱了等等。

All of them are based on experience and expectation and the situation of the moment.

所有这些都是基于经验和期望以及当前的情况。

Andrew Huberman: As many of you know, I've been taking AG1 one daily since 2012, so I'm delighted that they're sponsoring the podcast.

Andrew Huberman：正如你们很多人所知，自 2012 年以来我每天服用一次 AG1，所以我很高兴他们赞助这个播客。

AG1 is a vitamin mineral probiotic drink that's designed to meet all of your foundational nutrition needs.

AG1 是一种维生素矿物质益生菌饮料，旨在满足您的所有基本营养需求。

Now, of course, I try to get enough servings of vitamins and minerals through whole food sources that include vegetables and fruits every day, but oftentimes I simply can't get enough servings.

当然，现在我尝试每天通过包括蔬菜和水果在内的天然食物来源获取足够的维生素和矿物质，但通常我根本无法获取足够的份量。

But with AG1, I'm sure to get enough vitamins and minerals and the probiotics that I need.

And it also contains adaptogens to help buffer stress.

它还含有适应原来帮助缓解压力。

Simply put, I always feel better when I take AG1.

简而言之，当我服用 AG1 时，我总是感觉更好。

I have more focus and energy and I sleep better.

And it also happens to taste great.

而且它的味道也很棒。

For all these reasons, whenever I'm asked if you could take just one supplement, what would it be?

出于所有这些原因，每当我被问到是否可以只服用一种补充剂时，我会选择什么？

I answer AG1.

我回答AG1。

If you'd like to try AG1, go to drinkag1.com/huberman to claim a special offer.

如果您想尝试 AG1，请访问 Drinkag1.com/huberman 以获得特别优惠。

They'll give you five free travel packs plus a year supply of vitamin D3 K2.

他们将为您提供五个免费旅行包以及一年的维生素 D3 K2 供应。

Again, that's drinkag1.com/huberman.

再说一遍，这是 Drinkag1.com/huberman。

Are there any examples of uniqueness of visual perception that come to mind?

是否有任何视觉感知独特的例子？

I recently did a social media post that involved it was essentially three rings, a blue ring, a red ring, and a blue ring in the center.

我最近在社交媒体上发布了一篇文章，其中涉及到它基本上是三个环，一个蓝色环，一个红色环，中间有一个蓝色环。

Or perhaps it was the other way around.

或者也许恰恰相反。

Excuse me, it was red, blue red, and I asked which ring is in front?

请问，是红的，蓝红的，我问前面是哪一个环？

Or are they all in the same plane?

Now of course, it's a two dimensional image and interestingly, it splits out into about thirds.

当然，现在它是一个二维图像，有趣的是，它分成大约三分之一。

Some people see the blue ring in front quite a bit, others see a red ring out in front, others see them all in the same plane.

有些人看到前面有相当多的蓝色环，其他人看到前面有一个红色环，还有一些人看到它们都在同一平面上。

And this, we think, has to do with differences in two things between individuals.

我们认为，这与个体之间两件事的差异有关。

One is the distribution of the cone photoreceptors, which we know is essentially random between individuals, maybe even between the two eyes.

一是视锥细胞的分布，我们知道个体之间甚至两只眼睛之间的分布基本上是随机的。

And that gives rise to this phenomenon of chromatic aberration, which is the displacement of the visual image according to the wavelength of the light.

这就产生了色差现象，即视觉图像根据光的波长发生位移。

And we won't get into the physics of it now.

I'll soon do a post that hopefully distills it in a manner that's simple enough that people understand, but clearly, some people see certain colors in front of others, and the person right next to them could see the opposite color in front.

我很快就会写一篇文章，希望以一种足够简单、人们能够理解的方式提炼它，但显然，有些人在其他人面前看到某些颜色，而他们旁边的人可以在前面看到相反的颜色。

And others say, what are you talking about?

All the colors are in exactly the same plane of vision.

所有颜色都位于完全相同的视野范围内。

So that's the one that I know.

I'm guessing you know some others and perhaps some more robust ones.

我猜你认识其他一些人，也许还有一些更强大的人。

David Linden: Well, I think perhaps this is maybe not what you had in mind, but one way in which experience modifies the visual world has to do with how much light you're exposed to in the first five years or so of your life.

大卫·林登：嗯，我想这可能不是你想要的，但经验改变视觉世界的一种方式与你在生命的前五年左右接触到的光线量有关。

And so kids that don't get outside are much more likely to be myopic, and it actually is--

因此，不出门的孩子更有可能近视，事实上是——

Andrew Huberman: Near sighted.

David Linden: Near sighted, yes, when they grow up, than kids who got outside.

大卫·林登：是的，长大后，他们比外面的孩子近视。

And we now know that at least part of the story is that light seems to stimulate the expression of a class of molecules called trophic factors that you're well acquainted with that actually change the shape of the eyeball.

我们现在知道，至少部分故事是，光似乎会刺激一类称为营养因子的分子的表达，您很熟悉这种分子，实际上会改变眼球的形状。

So it's not really the structure of the retina or the lens of the cornea.

The actual degree of elongation of the eyeball changes, changing the way the retina sits relative to the lens.

眼球的实际伸长程度发生变化，从而改变了视网膜相对于晶状体的位置。

And that seems to be light dependent early in life, which gives rise to a higher incidence of myopia.

这似乎在生命早期就依赖于光，这导致近视发生率更高。

To me, this is really.

对我来说，这确实是。

Well, first of all, it's news you can use.

You should get your kids outside for all kinds of reasons.

出于各种原因，你应该让你的孩子出去。

Andrew Huberman: And you should get outside too, especially in the morning.

Set that circadian rhythm.

David Linden: I know that's a famous Hubermanesque point.

Andrew Huberman: They're going to be putting me in the grave, David, and I'm going to be telling people to.

安德鲁·胡伯曼：他们会把我放进坟墓里，大卫，我会告诉人们这样做。

Or maybe it'll be on my tombstone.

He'll say, get sunlight in your eyes, especially on cloudy days, because there is still sunlight, even if you can't see the physical object of the sun on cloudy days?

David Linden: Well, I think this whole idea of having traits that are dependent upon early life experience is fascinating because there are a number of situations where you would guess that something is genetic, but it isn't.

大卫·林登：嗯，我认为拥有依赖于早期生活经历的特征的整个想法很有趣，因为在很多情况下你会猜测某些东西是遗传的，但事实并非如此。

It's actually dependent on early life experience.

And there's an amazing story about this having to do with the early days of World War II.

So in the early days of World War II, the Japanese army just swept through Asia.

They defeated the British and Malaysia and Singapore, they overrun Thailand and Burma, and they were knocking on the gates of India, and everything was going great, except the Japanese army had a problem.

There were an enormous number of their soldiers who became incapacitated with heat stroke.

Their core temperature got too hot.

And when the army doctors examined them, they found this was much more likely to happen in soldiers who came from the northern part of Japan, Hokkaido, where it snows in the winter, as opposed to the southern part of Japan, like Kyushu, which is a semi tropical environment.

And the classical explanation, the biologists, like us would guess, would say, oh, all right, well, this has happened genetically over many years.

You have a family that's been in Kyushu for many generations, and you've selected four gene variants that allow you to tolerate the heat better.

And we know actually what this is.

So if you're more heat tolerant, it's because you have more of a particular class of sweat gland called the eccrine sweat glands, the sort of saltwater sweat glands, not the lipidy, stinky armpit sweat glands called the apricrine ones, the eccrine ones, you have a higher fraction of them that are innervated, meaning that the signals from your brain that say your core is too hot can then make you sweat.

So the total density of sweat glands between northern and southern soldiers in Japan wasn't different, but the southern soldiers tend to had a higher degree of innervation.

All right, so we said, okay, well, this happened genetically over many generations, but if you look at those rare cases where you had soldiers from a long established northern family and their parents moved south, and then they grew up in the southern location, they had high sweat gland innervation.

They were, well, heat tolerant.

它们耐热。

Conversely, if you had a well established southern Kyushu family and they moved to Hokaido and then had their child, that child developed the northern sweat gland innervation pattern.

Andrew Huberman: So, meaning less nerve innervation of those sweat glands, as you mentioned before, just as many sweat glands, just less nerve innervation.

Therefore, those sweat glands could not be activated.

They couldn't dump heat as well.

Their heat tolerance was lower.

Correct?

正确的？

David Linden: Exactly right.

大卫·林登：完全正确。

And what's wonderful is that this gives an advantage that you can't get through evolution and that it can happen right away in one generation.

Evolutionary change is slow, and you can adapt as a species and as a family over many, many generations.

But when you have a phenomenon that is set by early life experience, well, then you can benefit from that early life experience within your own life.

It's not that your great, great great grandchildren will ultimately benefit you benefit.

Another wonderful example of this comes from field mice, voles.

另一个很好的例子来自田鼠，即田鼠。

And we were talking earlier about how we both worked with the scientist Irving Zucker at Berkeley, who was a specialist in voles.

And what people found is that if you take wild caught field mice and you have pregnant mothers and you have them in the lab, but you manipulate the lights so that you have artificial spring.

In other words, day length is getting longer day after day during the pregnancy, then what happens is when their pups are born, they will have a low density of fur, anticipating summer temperatures.

If you, however, put them in artificial fall, where day length is getting shorter, they will be born now with high density of fur, anticipating winter temperatures.

And of course, you can do this no matter what the season actually is in the world by manipulating these lights in the lab.

And so, like the sweating Japanese soldiers, this is a great example of early life plasticity and just the sort of trait that, if you ask someone, they would probably guess is heritable, but actually is not.

Andrew Huberman: Thanks for mentioning Irving Zucker, who, as you also mentioned, was an advisor to us both, who's done incredible work in circadian biology, seasonal rhythms, hormones and behavior.

安德鲁·休伯曼：感谢您提到欧文·扎克，正如您也提到的，他是我们俩的顾问，在昼夜节律生物学、季节节律、激素和行为方面做出了令人难以置信的工作。

I have such reverence for Irving.

我对欧文充满敬意。

The experiment you mentioned made me smile wide because it's but one of, gosh, maybe hundreds of incredible studies.

So if people are interested in seasonal rhythms and circadian rhythms and biology of the most interesting kind, definitely check out Irving Zucker's work at Berkeley.

因此，如果人们对季节节律、昼夜节律以及最有趣的生物学感兴趣，一定要看看 Irving Zucker 在伯克利的工作。

I'll provide a link to his PubMed there.

我将在那里提供他的 PubMed 链接。

Since we've been taking a tour of individual variation in olfactory perception, visual perception, and now heat tolerance, I have to ask, are you aware of any examples off the top of your head in the auditory domain that particularly intrigue you?

David Linden: Yeah.

大卫·林登：是的。

Well, I would say one really interesting example has to do with perfect pitch.

So perfect pitch as a trait, that is to say, you have the ability to hear a note played and say, oh, that's a C sharp, right?

如此完美的音高作为一个特征，也就是说，你有能力听到一个音符演奏并说，哦，那是升C，对吧？

This is a pretty rare trait.

这是一个非常罕见的特征。

So even if you look among highly trained musicians, if you went to Peabody Conservatory at my university, Johns Hopkins, and tested people there, you would find a higher incidence of perfect pitch than you would in the general population.

But still, maybe one in ten trained musicians have perfect pitch.

但尽管如此，也许十分之一受过训练的音乐家仍拥有完美的音调。

And parenthetically, having perfect pitch doesn't necessarily make you a better musician, but it's an interesting phenomena.

顺便说一句，拥有完美的音调并不一定会让你成为更好的音乐家，但这是一个有趣的现象。

And so the question is, well, is perfect pitch heritable?

所以问题是，完美音高可以遗传吗？

And the answer is, when you look at twin studies, which is what we use to estimate heritability, the answer is, it's kind of low.

答案是，当你查看双胞胎研究（我们用来估计遗传力的方法）时，答案是，它有点低。

There is a heritable component, but it accounts for, my recollection is on the order of 30 40% of the variability in perfect pitch.

有一个可遗传的成分，但它占了我的记忆，完美音高的变异性约为 30-40%。

However, if people receive ear training starting at a young age, the chance that they will develop perfect pitch can improve drastically.

然而，如果人们从小就开始接受耳朵训练，他们发展完美音调的机会就会大大提高。

Andrew Huberman: In your book, Unique, do you cover aspects of human individuality that extend beyond the perception domain into the cognitive domain?

安德鲁·休伯曼：在您的《独特》一书中，您是否涵盖了人类个性的各个方面，这些方面超出了感知领域并延伸到了认知领域？

David Linden: Well, yeah, absolutely.

大卫·林登：嗯，是的，绝对如此。

And I think it's good to set the stage here if we're going to be talking about heritability and human individuality.

我认为如果我们要讨论遗传性和人类个性，那么在这里搭建舞台是很好的。

If I can go off on a little bit of a riff for the benefit of your listeners and viewers here.

为了听众和观众的利益，我可以说一点即兴表演。

Andrew Huberman: Please.

安德鲁·休伯曼：拜托。

David Linden: So, if you look at human traits, whether they are behavioral traits like shyness, or very straightforward morphological traits like height, what you tend to find is that there are very few traits that are entirely heritable, where all their variability can be predicted based on the gene variance you get from your mother and father.

大卫·林登：所以，如果你观察人类特征，无论是害羞等行为特征，还是身高等非常简单的形态特征，你往往会发现很少有特征是完全可遗传的，它们的所有变异性都可以根据你从父母那里获得的基因变异来预测。

And there are a few traits that are absolutely unheritable, but that most fall in between.

So let me give an example.

让我举个例子。

Everyone in the world has either wet or dry earwax, and it turns out that this is determined by variation in a single gene.

世界上每个人都有湿或干的耳垢，事实证明，这是由单个基因的变异决定的。

The name of the gene is boring.

这个基因的名字很无聊。

It's ABCC11, it's an ion transporter.

它是 ABCC11，它是一种离子转运蛋白。

And there is a variation in this gene gives rise to either wet or dry earwax.

这个基因的变异会产生湿耳垢或干耳垢。

It doesn't matter how your parents raised you, it doesn't matter what foods you ate growing up, doesn't matter what diseases your mother had when you were in the womb, it's 100% heritable.

无论你的父母如何抚养你，无论你在成长过程中吃什么食物，无论你在子宫里时你的母亲患有什么疾病，它都是100%遗传的。

Well, does this mean that ABCC11, we should call it the earwax type gene?

那么，这是否意味着ABCC11，我们应该称其为耳垢型基因？

Well, no, because it's not there just for that.

嗯，不，因为它不只是为了这个。

Like, this gene is expressed in cells in all parts of the body, doing all kinds of things.

就像，这个基因在身体各个部位的细胞中表达，做各种各样的事情。

Earwax is just something that we notice.

耳垢只是我们注意到的东西。

Genes don't code for traits, they code for proteins, and so we have to be careful about how we refer to them in that way.

基因不编码性状，而是编码蛋白质，因此我们必须小心如何以这种方式引用它们。

For example, the wet earwax variant of the ABCC11 gene also confers a slightly higher risk for breast cancer.

例如，ABCC11 基因的湿耳垢变异也会导致患乳腺癌的风险略高。

So, clearly, it's not just for earwax.

所以，很明显，它不仅仅适用于耳垢。

It's for a bunch of things, most of which we don't yet know about.

But in the case of earwax, this trait is 100% heritable.

At the other end of the scale, speech accent is 0% heritable.

It is entirely dependent upon the speech that you experience in your childhood.

And interestingly, it's the speech of your peers more than the speech of your family, which is why the children of immigrants sound like the place where they wound up, not like their parents.

有趣的是，更多的是你同龄人的言论，而不是你家人的言论，这就是为什么移民的孩子听起来像他们结束的地方，而不是像他们的父母。

And there is no evidence for any degree of heritability.

Now, just to be clear, I'm talking about speech accent.

Like whether you have a high or a low voice or it's nasal, are more or less resonant.

These are physical things having to do with the vocal tract, and they are, in part, heritable.

Okay, so we've got one thing that's 100% heritable and one thing that's 0% heritable.

But where do most things fall?

但大多数东西都落在哪里呢？

Most things fall in the middle.

大多数事情都落在中间。

One of the most heritable traits that we know about in humans is height.

And in the United States, height is about 85% heritable.

85% of the variation in the trait of height can be explained by what you inherit from your mother and your father.

85% 的身高特征变异可以用遗传自父母的遗传来解释。

Well, what's the rest?

好吧，剩下的是什么？

Well, it's nutrition.

嗯，就是营养。

It's the diseases you fought off.

这是你战胜的疾病。

It's also random variation, which we'll talk about a lot later.

这也是随机变化，我们稍后会详细讨论。

Now, you might say, okay, well, that's an estimate for people in the US.

现在，你可能会说，好吧，这是对美国人的估计。

Is this true all over the world?

全世界都是如此吗？

Well, no. If you go to a place where people routinely don't get enough nutrition and are routinely fighting off infectious diseases like this has been studied in rural Bolivia, for example, or rural India.

嗯，不。如果你去一个人们经常得不到足够营养并且经常与传染病作斗争的地方，例如玻利维亚农村或印度农村就已经研究过这样的情况。

Now, height is no longer 85% heritable, it's only 50% heritable.

现在，身高不再是85%可遗传，而是只有50%可遗传。

Why?

为什么？

Because people in these situations where they don't get enough nourishment, where they're fighting off these diseases, can't live up to their genetic potential for height.

因为在这种情况下，人们无法获得足够的营养，无法抵抗这些疾病，因此无法发挥身高的遗传潜力。

If you want to make things better for the people of the world, then everyone needs to have basic things like the ability to learn and enough nutrition and decent medical care and schools in order to fulfill their genetic potential for positive traits.

如果你想让世界人民的生活变得更好，那么每个人都需要拥有基本的东西，比如学习能力、足够的营养、体面的医疗保健和学校，以发挥其积极特质的遗传潜力。

And height, I've used as an example, because it is very uncontroversial.

我用身高作为例子，因为它非常没有争议。

But we could apply the very same analysis to intelligence, general intelligence.

但我们可以将同样的分析应用于智力，即一般智力。

Now, there are people who argue about, do things like IQ tests really measure anything real.

现在，有人争论说，像智商测试这样的事情真的可以衡量任何真实的东西。

And there's been a lot of fighting in the scientific literature about this.

科学文献中对此有很多争论。

But I think intelligence tests aren't perfect, and they are sometimes culture bound, but they are actually quite predictive of later success, and much more so than, say, SAT tests or GRE tests or MCATs or other standardized tests.

但我认为智力测试并不完美，有时会受到文化的限制，但它们实际上可以很好地预测以后的成功，而且比 SAT 测试或 GRE 测试或 MCAT 或其他标准化测试更能预测。

Andrew Huberman: But presumably those correlate in some way.

Andrew Huberman：但想必这些在某种程度上是相关的。

David Linden: They do.

大卫·林登：是的。

But the IQ tests are better actually.

但智商测试实际上更好。

Andrew Huberman: They're talking about the classic IQ test?

Andrew Huberman：他们在谈论经典的智商测试？

David Linden: I am talking about the modern variants of the classic IQ test that are administered by trained psychologists and aren't just a paper form.

大卫·林登：我说的是经典智商测试的现代变体，这些测试由训练有素的心理学家进行，而不仅仅是纸质形式。

And so they're not perfect, and no test will be perfect, but they're pretty good.

所以它们并不完美，也没有测试是完美的，但它们相当不错。

And so then, if you ask the question, well, what is the heritability for IQ test score?

那么，如果你问这个问题，那么，智商测试成绩的遗传力是多少？

Well, the answer tends to be different depending upon the population.

好吧，答案往往会根据人口的不同而有所不同。

If you look, again, in countries like the US or in Western Europe that are fairly affluent, where people tend to have good access to nutrition and medical care and schooling and kids get to play and they're not traumatized by war, then IQ test score is heritable in the ballpark of 60, 70%.

再看看美国或西欧等相当富裕的国家，那里的人们往往能获得良好的营养、医疗保健和教育，孩子们可以玩耍，也不会因战争而受到创伤，那么智商测试分数的遗传性大约为 60% 到 70%。

But if you look at people who don't have those benefits, who are poor, and this can be in the United States as well, if you look at communities that face discrimination and have consistently poor health care in schools, then IQ is less heritable.

但如果你看看那些没有这些福利的人，那些穷人，这在美国也是如此，如果你看看那些面临歧视并且学校医疗保健一直很差的社区，那么智商的遗传性就较小。

Why?

为什么？

For the very same reason that it is in height.

出于同样的原因，它的高度。

Because people can't live up to their genetic potential when they don't have the basic things that everybody needs.

因为当人们不具备每个人都需要的基本东西时，他们就无法发挥其遗传潜力。

Andrew Huberman: So presumably, if two identical twins, and I realize they aren't identical, but you're familiar with twins, you have twin children.

安德鲁·胡伯曼：所以想必，如果有两个同卵双胞胎，我意识到他们并不相同，但你熟悉双胞胎，你就会有双胞胎孩子。

If two identical twins are raised separately, the correlation in their IQ, is it that only 60?

如果两个同卵双胞胎分开抚养，他们的智商相关性，是不是只有60？

I think you said about 66% of their IQ can be predicted on the basis of their genetic makeup alone.

我想你说过大约 66% 的智商可以仅根据他们的基因构成来预测。

I mean, it makes perfect sense to me as to why, if one of those twins went to schools that were demanding of a lot of different topic matter and the other one went to schools where the instruction level was really deficient, that one would perform far less well on an IQ test.

我的意思是，这对我来说是完全有道理的，为什么如果其中一个双胞胎去了要求很多不同主题的学校，而另一个去了教学水平确实不足的学校，那么其中一个在智商测试中的表现就会差得多。

Unless, of course, the IQ test isn't tapping into school based knowledge, it's tapping into some other thermometer of so called intelligence or IQ.

当然，除非智商测试不是利用学校知识，而是利用其他所谓智力或智商的温度计。

David Linden: Well, the thing is that good schools correlate with many other things, right?

大卫·林登：嗯，问题是好的学校与许多其他事情相关，对吧？

So the students that go to good schools aren't just benefiting from good schools.

因此，上好学校的学生不仅仅受益于好学校。

They tend to also have good medical care and safer, less traumatizing neighborhoods, and they're more likely to have books, parents with books in the home, and a whole number of things that are all beneficial.

他们往往还拥有良好的医疗保健和更安全、更少创伤的社区，而且他们更有可能拥有书籍、父母在家中拥有书籍以及许多有益的东西。

So when you try to do epidemiology on this, you have to be aware that things are very deeply interconnected, but you bring up a good point.

因此，当你尝试对此进行流行病学研究时，你必须意识到事物之间是紧密相连的，但你提出了一个很好的观点。

So it turns out that the way we get these estimates of heritability, there's two ways.

事实证明，我们获得遗传力估计值的方法有两种。

One way is to compare so called identical or monozygotic twins with so called fraternal or dizygotic twins.

一种方法是将所谓的同卵双胞胎或同卵双胞胎与所谓的异卵双胞胎或异卵双胞胎进行比较。

So the identical twins will share nearly 100% of their gene variance, and on average, fraternal twins share 50% of their gene variance.

因此，同卵双胞胎将共享近 100% 的基因变异，而异卵双胞胎平均有 50% 的基因变异。

And generally speaking, when people do these studies in order to avoid confounds of sex, they'll compare same sex fraternal twins.

一般来说，当人们为了避免性别混淆而进行这些研究时，他们会比较同性异卵双胞胎。

So boys to boys and girls to girls.

所以男孩对男孩，女孩对女孩。

And when you put these incidents into a formula called Fisher's equation, then you can come up with an estimate of the heritability of the trait.

当你将这些事件放入费舍尔方程的公式中时，你就可以估算出该性状的遗传力。

But there is an assumption present in that, and it's called the equal environment assumption.

但其中存在一个假设，称为平等环境假设。

You're saying, well, two kids raised in the same family have the same environment.

你是说，嗯，在同一个家庭长大的两个孩子有相同的环境。

Well, that's not always true.

嗯，情况并不总是如此。

Right?

正确的？

That can be violated by a number of different situations.

许多不同的情况都可能违反这一点。

So it turns out that a more powerful but much more difficult way to estimate heritability is by looking at twins reared apart, either identical twins or fraternal twins reared apart.

因此，事实证明，一种更有效但更困难的估计遗传力的方法是观察分开抚养的双胞胎，无论是同卵双胞胎还是异卵双胞胎。

And there was a landmark study called the The Minnesota Study of Twins Reared Apart, which is abbreviated MISTRA, that is really the gold standard for assessing the heritability of many different human traits, both behavioral traits, but also disease incidents.

还有一项具有里程碑意义的研究，称为“明尼苏达双胞胎分开抚养研究”，简称为“MISTRA”，这确实是评估许多不同人类特征（包括行为特征和疾病事件）遗传性的黄金标准。

But, of course, it's a Small-N, because the population of identical twins reared apart that you can get into the lab isn't that large.

但是，当然，这是一个 Small-N，因为你可以进入实验室的分开抚养的同卵双胞胎的数量并没有那么大。

They had something.

他们有一些东西。

I don't remember the exact numbers, but they had something like 80 some identicals and 50 some fraternals in their sample.

我不记得确切的数字，但他们的样本中大约有 80 个同卵个体和 50 个异卵个体。

But by doing this, they were able to come up with a lot of interesting estimates.

但通过这样做，他们能够得出很多有趣的估计。

And so, for example, most personality traits, what the psychologists use the acronym OCEAN to mean, Openness, Conscientiousness, Empathy, Agreeableness, and Neuroticism.

例如，大多数人格特质，心理学家用缩写词 OCEAN 来表示：开放性、尽责性、同理心、宜人性和神经质。

I think I got that right.

我想我是对的。

David Linden : Andrew Huberman: Spelled right.

大卫·林登：安德鲁·休伯曼：拼写正确。

David Linden: That these traits, on average, tend to be about 50% heritable.

David Linden：平均而言，这些特征的遗传率约为 50%。

And so, okay, you say, all right, well, 50% of those personality traits is heritable.

所以，好吧，你说，好吧，好吧，这些性格特征中有 50% 是可遗传的。

The rest has got to be like how you were raised.

其余的就必须像你的成长方式一样。

It's got to be in your family.

它必须在你的家庭中。

And so everyone was shocked when they actually did the analysis and found that family has almost nothing to do with it.

所以当他们真正进行分析时，每个人都感到震惊，发现家庭与这几乎没有任何关系。

What?

什么？

Are you kidding?

你在开玩笑吧？

It's got to.

必须如此。

And I think the important thing to realize is these traits I just listed, we call these personality traits, but they are not the sum total of the way you are in the world.

我认为重要的是要认识到我刚才列出的这些特征，我们称之为人格特征，但它们并不是你在世界上的方式的总和。

Parents can inculcate many things in their children.

父母可以向孩子灌输很多东西。

They can demonstrate trades, so people are much more likely to go into an occupation if their parents did.

他们可以展示自己的手艺，所以如果他们的父母这样做的话，人们更有可能从事某项职业。

They can inculcate moral ideas and religious ideas, but in terms of these OCEAN personality traits, they have astonishingly little to do with it.

他们可以灌输道德观念和宗教观念，但就这些海洋人格特征而言，他们与之几乎没有什么关系。

So then this brings up the question, well, if 50% of the variation in these personality traits is not from your genetics and it's not from your family, where does it come from?

那么这就提出了一个问题，如果这些性格特征的 50% 的变异不是来自你的遗传，也不是来自你的家庭，那么它从哪里来呢？

And the answer seems to be, is that it comes from the random nature of the development of the body and the nervous system.

答案似乎是，它来自身体和神经系统发育的随机性。

And this is a point that I think many people don't understand.

而这一点我想很多人都不理解。

This is something that biologists know, but we've done a very poor job of communicating to the general public.

这是生物学家都知道的事情，但我们在与公众沟通方面做得很差。

The genome, all your DNA, all 3 billion bases of DNA, all 19,000 or so genes in a human don't make a blueprint for making your body and brain.

基因组、你所有的 DNA、所有 30 亿个 DNA 碱基、人类中所有 19,000 个左右的基因，并不能为你的身体和大脑绘制蓝图。

It's not a schematic diagram that connects everything to everything, particularly in the nervous system, where we have these hundreds of trillions of connections.

这不是一个将所有事物连接起来的示意图，特别是在神经系统中，我们在那里有数百万亿个连接。

Rather, it's a rather vague recipe.

相反，这是一个相当模糊的食谱。

So the genome doesn't say, oh, okay, you glutamate using neuron in the brain region called the thalamus, grow for 200 microns towards the top, and then cross the midline, and then grow towards the ear for another distance.

所以基因组并没有说，哦，好吧，你使用称为丘脑的大脑区域中的神经元进行谷氨酸化，向顶部生长 200 微米，然后穿过中线，然后向耳朵生长另一个距离。

No. It says something like, hey, you, bunch of glutamate neurons in the thalamus over here in this area, about half of you cross the midline.

不。它说的是，嘿，你，丘脑中这个区域的一堆谷氨酸神经元，大约有一半穿过中线。

And so what does this mean in terms of individual variation?

那么这对于个体差异意味着什么呢？

Well, for some individuals, 40% of their axons will cross the midline of the brain, and for another individual, 60% will, even in identical twins, and as you correctly said a moment ago, identical twins aren't really identical, either in their bodies or their temperament.

嗯，对于某些人来说，40% 的轴突会穿过大脑中线，而对于另一个人来说，60% 的轴突会穿过大脑中线，即使是同卵双胞胎，正如你刚才正确地说的那样，同卵双胞胎并不完全相同，无论是在身体上还是在气质上。

So if you take newborn identical twins and you give them a CT scan just to measure the shape of their organs, they're not the same.

因此，如果你对刚出生的同卵双胞胎进行 CT 扫描，只是为了测量他们器官的形状，他们是不一样的。

You might have one twin whose spleen is 30% larger than the other twins, or whose liver is 30% smaller than the other twins, Even though they have the exact same DNA, and they were lying right next to each other in the womb and presumably had the same or very similar fetal environment.

你可能有一个双胞胎，其脾脏比其他双胞胎大 30%，或者肝脏比其他双胞胎小 30%，尽管他们具有完全相同的 DNA，而且他们在子宫里紧挨着躺着，并且可能有相同或非常相似的胎儿环境。

And the reason is the random, or, as we say, stochastic nature of neural development.

原因是神经发育的随机性，或者正如我们所说的随机性。

A great way to study this is with nine-banded armadillo.

研究这一问题的一个好方法是用九带犰狳。

I know we're getting weird here, but.

我知道我们在这里变得很奇怪，但是。

Andrew Huberman: I love the armadillo because I've been told.

安德鲁·休伯曼：我喜欢犰狳，因为有人告诉我。

Tell me, I don't want to interrupt you too long, but as far as I know, the only animal in North America that carries leprosy?

告诉我，我不想打扰你太久，但据我所知，北美唯一携带麻风病的动物是什么？

David Linden: That is true.

大卫·林登：确实如此。

Andrew Huberman: And there's a lot of twinning going on in armadillos, right?

安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman）：犰狳中有很多双胞胎，对吧？

David Linden: Well, what there is is actually quadding.

大卫·林登：嗯，实际上是四边形。

So armadillos, or the nine-banded armadillo in particular, and there are different armadillos.

犰狳，特别是九带犰狳，还有不同的犰狳。

I'm not really an armadillo specialist, so I don't know if this holds for all of them.

我并不是真正的犰狳专家，所以我不知道这是否适用于所有人。

But the nine-banded armadillo is born as identical quadruplets.

但九带犰狳生来就是一模一样的四胞胎。

Andrew Huberman: Awesome.

安德鲁·休伯曼：太棒了。

David Linden: So you can take these identical quadruplet, newly born armadillo.

大卫·林登：所以你可以带上这些一模一样的四胞胎，刚出生的犰狳。

I don't know.

我不知道。

You think you call them pups?

你以为你称他们为小狗吗？

I don't know what a baby armadillo is called.

我不知道小犰狳叫什么。

I'm sure there's some particular word for it.

我确信有一些特定的词来形容它。

Andrew Huberman: Someone will tell us, I'm sure someone in the comments on YouTube.

Andrew Huberman：有人会告诉我们，我肯定有人在 YouTube 的评论中。

What is the name of a baby armadillo?

犰狳宝宝叫什么名字？

I know, like a ferret.

我知道，就像雪貂一样。

Baby ferrets are kits.

小雪貂是套件。

The moms are jills, the dads are bobs.

妈妈是吉尔，爸爸是鲍勃。

I used to be obsessed with this kind of naming.

我曾经对这种命名很着迷。

It's a business of ferrets or what is like a gang of raccoons or whatever.

这是雪貂或浣熊帮之类的动物的生意。

So if you can tell us what the name is for the baby armadillos as well as what do you call a group of armadillos, you win the pride associated with being right.

因此，如果您能告诉我们小犰狳的名字以及您如何称呼一群犰狳，您就会因正确而感到自豪。

David Linden: That's right.

大卫·林登：没错。

Right.

正确的。

One of my favorites is an ostentation of peacocks.

我最喜欢的作品之一是孔雀的炫耀。

Andrew Huberman: Amazing.

安德鲁·休伯曼：太棒了。

David Linden: Or a murder of crows.

大卫·林登：或者谋杀乌鸦。

Andrew Huberman: Who comes up with this stuff?

Andrew Huberman：谁想出了这个东西？

David Linden: I know.

大卫·林登：我知道。

Andrew Huberman: Or a raft of otters.

安德鲁·休伯曼：或者是一群水獭。

David Linden: David Linden : Andrew Huberman: I think that's correct.

大卫·林登：大卫·林登：安德鲁·休伯曼：我认为这是正确的。

David Linden: So if you have four newborn identical nine-banded armadillos, then this is a great model system that biologists can use to study stochastic differences in development.

大卫·林登：所以，如果你有四只新生的相同的九带犰狳，那么这是一个很好的模型系统，生物学家可以用它来研究发育中的随机差异。

And sure enough, their brains are wired slightly differently, their bodies are slightly different.

果然，他们的大脑结构略有不同，他们的身体也略有不同。

If you test them behaviorally, even very, very early in life, they have different propensities.

如果你对他们进行行为测试，即使是在生命的非常非常小的时候，他们也会有不同的倾向。

Some are bolder and will explore more.

有些人更大胆，会探索更多。

Some will tend to hide in the corner more.

有些人会更倾向于躲在角落里。

And we know this from the lab.

我们从实验室知道了这一点。

You get a box of mice that are inbred from the breeder and you pluck them out.

你拿到一盒从饲养员那里近交的老鼠，然后把它们抓出来。

And they're not behaviorally identical.

而且它们的行为并不相同。

Some might try to bite your hand, some will run away, some will stand stock still.

有些可能会试图咬你的手，有些会逃跑，有些会一动不动。

Where does this behavioral variation come from in mice that are nearly genetically identical?

基因几乎相同的小鼠的这种行为差异从何而来？

Well, it comes from a bunch of things.

嗯，它来自很多事情。

They don't always have exactly equal experience, but mostly it comes from the pseudo random, stochastic nature of development.

他们并不总是拥有完全相同的经验，但大多来自发展的伪随机性、随机性。

Andrew Huberman: I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, InsideTracker.

Andrew Huberman：我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商 InsideTracker。

InsideTracker is a personalized nutrition platform that analyzes data from your blood and DNA to help you better understand your body and help you meet your health goals.

InsideTracker 是一个个性化营养平台，可分析您的血液和 DNA 数据，帮助您更好地了解您的身体并帮助您实现健康目标。

I'm a big believer in getting regular blood work done for the simple reason that many of the factors that impact your immediate and long term health can only be analyzed from a quality blood test.

我坚信定期进行血液检查，原因很简单，影响您近期和长期健康的许多因素只能通过高质量的血液测试来分析。

However, with a lot of blood tests out there, you get information back about blood lipids, about hormones and so on, but you don't know what to do with that information.

然而，通过大量的血液测试，您可以获得有关血脂、激素等的信息，但您不知道如何处理这些信息。

With InsideTracker, they have a personalized platform that makes it very easy to understand your data, that is, to understand what those lipids, what those hormone levels, etc, mean, and behavioral supplement, nutrition and other protocols to adjust those numbers to bring them into the ranges that are ideal for your immediate and long term health.

借助 InsideTracker，他们拥有一个个性化平台，可以非常轻松地了解您的数据，即了解这些脂质、激素水平等的含义，并通过行为补充、营养和其他协议来调整这些数字，使其达到适合您近期和长期健康的理想范围。

InsideTracker's ultimate plan now includes measures of both Apo B and of insulin, which are key indicators of cardiovascular health and energy regulation.

InsideTracker 的最终计划现在包括 Apo B 和胰岛素的测量，它们是心血管健康和能量调节的关键指标。

If you'd like to try InsideTracker, you can visit insidetracker.com/huberman to get 20% off any of InsideTracker's plans.

如果您想尝试 InsideTracker，可以访问 insidetracker.com/huberman，享受任何 InsideTracker 计划 20% 的折扣。

Again, that's insidetracker.com/huberman to get 20% off.

同样，在 insidetracker.com/huberman 上可以获得 20% 的折扣。

And is the pseudorandom, stochastic nature of development one of the major, excuse me, driving forces for evolution?

请问，发展的伪随机性和随机性是进化的主要驱动力之一吗？

Because we hear about mutations and we always think, or people tend to think, rather, that mutations are bad.

因为我们听说突变，并且我们总是认为，或者人们倾向于认为，突变是不好的。

But of course, mutations provide the variation that can also subserve adaptive traits.

当然，突变提供的变异也可以促进适应性特征。

I mean, if you're a fan of the X-Men, as I am huge fan of the X-Men, the entire series, every single one, including the Wolverine movies, you quickly come to learn that genetic mutation is at the heart of variation, which is at the heart of individuality, which is what we're talking about, right?

我的意思是，如果你是 X 战警的粉丝，就像我是 X 战警、整个系列、每一部，包括金刚狼电影的超级粉丝一样，你很快就会了解到基因突变是变异的核心，这是个性的核心，这就是我们正在谈论的，对吧？

David Linden: And so genetic variation is at the heart of individuality.

大卫·林登：因此遗传变异是个性的核心。

But there are also these other things, right, that we've talked about.

但我们也讨论过其他一些事情。

There's the effects of early life experience, and there is the stochastic nature of development.

其中有早期生活经历的影响，也有发展的随机性。

Because if you, through the randomness of development, happen to have, like, a particularly great liver, you're not going to pass that on to your children, right?

因为如果你，由于发育的随机性，碰巧有一个特别好的肝脏，你不会把它遗传给你的孩子，对吗？

That isn't in your germline.

那不属于你的种系。

You won't pass that trait along.

你不会把这个特质遗传下去。

Andrew Huberman: Just a brief insert here on germline.

Andrew Huberman：这里简单介绍一下种系。

We had Oded Rechavi on the podcast who studies epigenetic transmission and inheritance.

我们的播客中有 Oded Rechavi，他研究表观遗传传播和遗传。

It's not Lamarckian, we have to point that out.

这不是拉马克式的，我们必须指出这一点。

But inheritance of sort of acquired traits, it does happen.

但后天性状的遗传确实会发生。

The germline is the genes that are present in the sperm and in the eggs.

种系是存在于精子和卵子中的基因。

All the other cells of your body have genes, of course, but the best way to put this is simply going to the gym and getting fit does not make your children more fit, because the germ line, as far as we know, is not modified in a direct way.

当然，你身体的所有其他细胞都有基因，但最好的方法就是去健身房，健身并不会让你的孩子变得更健康，因为据我们所知，种系并没有直接改变。

In other words, the DNA within sperm and eggs are not modified according to your behaviors in most, but not all cases.

换句话说，在大多数情况下，但并非所有情况下，精子和卵子中的 DNA 都不会根据您的行为进行修改。

David Linden: That's right.

大卫·林登：没错。

And as you correctly said about Oded's work and other people's work, there is what's called transgenerational epigenetic inheritance, which means that you can have traits that are passed not from one generation to the next, but even two generations to the grandchildren, that don't require modification of DNA.

正如你正确地谈到 Oded 的工作和其他人的工作一样，存在所谓的跨代表观遗传，这意味着你可以拥有不需要从一代传到下一代，甚至可以传到孙子两代的特征，而无需修改 DNA。

But to date, that has been shown very convincingly in worms and in plants.

但迄今为止，这一点已在蠕虫和植物中得到了非常令人信服的证明。

The evidence in mammals is really not there yet, in my opinion, and most of the claims for that.

在我看来，哺乳动物的证据确实还没有存在，而且大多数说法都还没有。

And it's a very popular thing to say, I epigenetically inherited my grandmother's or great grandmother's trauma.

这是一个很流行的说法，我在表观遗传上继承了我祖母或曾祖母的创伤。

The evidence at present is poor.

目前的证据还很薄弱。

Actually, a lot of it comes from epidemiology, most of which came from famines in the urchalics region of northern Sweden.

实际上，很大一部分来自流行病学，其中大部分来自瑞典北部乌查尔地区的饥荒。

And they had very good medical records.

他们有非常好的医疗记录。

And they said, oh, well, if your grandfather went through the famine, then you're more likely to have this trait.

他们说，哦，好吧，如果你的祖父经历过饥荒，那么你更有可能有这种特质。

If you're male, or if your grandmother went through this, then if you're male, have this trait and your female have that trait.

如果你是男性，或者如果你的祖母经历过这个，那么如果你是男性，有这个特征，你的女性有这个特征。

And, I mean, there are two problems.

我的意思是，有两个问题。

One is that there's not a biological mechanism, but the other problem is that the way these things were discovered is by something called harking or hypothesizing after the results are known.

一是不存在生物机制，但另一个问题是这些东西的发现方式是在结果已知后通过所谓的聆听或假设进行。

They did very many statistical comparisons to try to find something significant.

他们做了很多统计比较，试图找到一些有意义的东西。

And you know from your work in the lab that when you do many comparisons, you're going to get some things that look significant just occasionally or randomly through luck.

你从实验室的工作中知道，当你进行多次比较时，你会偶然或偶然地通过运气得到一些看起来很重要的东西。

And you have to apply a statistical correction called a Bonferroni correction when you make many, particularly post hoc comparisons after the experiment, comparisons to set the bar much higher for accepting that data.

当你进行许多特别是实验后的事后比较时，你必须应用一种称为 Bonferroni 校正的统计校正，通过比较来设置更高的接受数据的标准。

And most of those studies, they didn't apply that correction.

大多数研究都没有应用这种修正。

And I remain unconvinced of transgenerational epigenetic inheritance in mammals.

我仍然不相信哺乳动物的跨代表观遗传。

Now, let's be clear.

现在，让我们明确一点。

Just because it hasn't been shown convincingly now, doesn't mean that it won't be.

仅仅因为现在还没有令人信服地展示它，并不意味着它不会。

There are some good people working very hard on this, and they may well describe a mechanism and show this convincingly in the years to come.

有一些优秀的人在这方面非常努力，他们可能会很好地描述一种机制，并在未来几年令人信服地展示这一点。

But right now, you may well inherit your grandma's or great grandma's trauma, but you're probably doing it socially, not through marks on your DNA that changes how your genes are expressed or not expressed.

但现在，你很可能继承了你祖母或曾祖母的创伤，但你可能是在社交场合这样做的，而不是通过 DNA 上的标记来改变你的基因表达或不表达的方式。

Andrew Huberman: Yes.

安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。

So I subscribe to the idea that there is absolutely, certainly transgenerational inheritance of parenting and upbringing.

所以我同意这样的观点：养育和养育绝对是跨代遗传的。

Right?

正确的？

I mean, your grandparents raise your parents who raise you.

我的意思是，你的祖父母养育了你的父母，他们养育了你。

Not always, people can be adopted.

并非总是如此，人们可以被收养。

In fact, I have adopted members of my family.

事实上，我收养了我的家人。

But if I understand what you're saying correctly, the evidence that, for instance, some stress related gene was modified during a trauma in my grandparents or great grandparents, and the idea that that was passed to me through my parents, that the evidence there is far weaker.

但如果我理解你的意思是正确的，那么证据表明，例如，一些与压力相关的基因在我的祖父母或曾祖父母的创伤期间被修改，以及通过我的父母传递给我的想法，那里的证据要弱得多。

David Linden: Right.

大卫·林登：对。

And when you think about it, well, how did that happen?

当你想一想时，好吧，这是怎么发生的？

That had to get into your grandparents sperm or egg cell and then produce that effect in the brain of your parent, and then it had to get into their sperm or egg cell and then contribute to producing it in you.

它必须进入你祖父母的精子或卵细胞，然后在你父母的大脑中产生这种效应，然后它必须进入他们的精子或卵细胞，然后有助于在你体内产生它。

Andrew Huberman: But fragmentation of DNA in sperm or in eggs is a common thing, especially as people age.

Andrew Huberman：但是精子或卵子中的 DNA 碎片是很常见的事情，尤其是随着人们年龄的增长。

DNA, sperm and eggs fragment.

DNA、精子和卵子片段。

And it's possible that some of those mutations still allow for viable embryos.

其中一些突变可能仍然允许存活的胚胎。

So in theory, the germline could be changed by environmental events.

因此从理论上讲，种系可能会因环境事件而改变。

David Linden: Well, right.

大卫·林登：嗯，对。

But now I think you're starting to talk about things that are heritable.

但现在我认为你开始谈论可遗传的事情了。

Right?

正确的？

You're not talking about marks on DNA.

你说的不是 DNA 上的标记。

You're talking about the structure of the DNA itself.

你说的是DNA本身的结构。

And that is its own separate issue.

这是它自己的单独问题。

Now, I think I want to be really careful about this, because what is now, I think, fairly well established is that you can transfer things epigenetically over a single generation if, as a result of experiences that the mother has during pregnancy.

现在，我想我对此要非常小心，因为我认为，现在已经相当确定的是，如果作为母亲在怀孕期间的经历的结果，你可以在一代人中进行表观遗传转移。

So, for example, we know that during the 1918 pandemic flu, many women were pregnant and got the flu.

例如，我们知道在 1918 年流感大流行期间，许多妇女怀孕并感染了流感。

And if you look at their children, you find interesting statistical anomalies.

如果你观察他们的孩子，你会发现有趣的统计异常。

And those children, for example, the males, wound up going into the army for World War II.

这些孩子，例如男性，最终参军参加第二次世界大战。

And of course, the army does a complete physical, and the records are very good.

当然，军队也做了全面的体检，记录也非常好。

So you can go into that database and you find that the male children that were in utero during the winter of 1918, during the pandemic flu, are on average, a millimeter or two shorter, you might say a millimeter or two.

所以你可以进入这个数据库，你会发现 1918 年冬天流感大流行期间子宫内的男孩平均矮了一两毫米，你可能会说一两毫米。

That's nothing.

那没什么。

But in a huge statistical sample of millions of people, that's enormously significant.

但在数百万人的庞大统计样本中，这是非常重要的。

More interesting is that the incidence of schizophrenia went up about fourfold, from about 1% to about 4%.

更有趣的是，精神分裂症的发病率上升了约四倍，从约 1% 上升至约 4%。

And even though autism wasn't a term in 1918 yet, I don't think it came along later.

尽管自闭症在 1918 年还不是一个术语，但我认为它后来才出现。

What we now retrospectively would call autism also went up by about fourfold.

现在回想起来，我们所说的自闭症也增加了约四倍。

So there's something about mom being stressed and carrying the fetus at a particular stage that seems to impact brain development in a way that then makes that child more likely to be schizophrenic or autistic when they grow up.

因此，妈妈承受的压力以及在特定阶段怀上胎儿似乎会影响大脑发育，从而使孩子长大后更有可能患上精神分裂症或自闭症。

Andrew Huberman: Do we know that it's stress?

Andrew Huberman：我们知道这是压力吗？

And my recollection of this, I believe this was the late Paul Sternberg's work as well.

根据我的回忆，我相信这也是已故的保罗·斯滕伯格的作品。

I maybe have that name incorrect, but in any event, that it is, if pregnant mom gets the flu in the first trimester, you see this higher incidence of schizophrenia and autistic offspring.

我可能这个名字不正确，但无论如何，如果怀孕的妈妈在怀孕的前三个月感染了流感，你会发现精神分裂症和自闭症后代的发病率更高。

But do we know that it's stress per se, because it's stressful to have the flu, but the flu is a bunch of other things.

但我们是否知道这本身就是压力，因为患流感会带来压力，但流感还有很多其他的因素。

Could be fever, could be some breakdown in the immune barrier.

可能是发烧，也可能是免疫屏障受损。

I just want to open up the number of variables that this could be.

我只是想公开这可能存在的变量数量。

Or do we know that it's something in the hypothalamic–pituitary, so called stress axis, that is adrenals?

或者我们是否知道它是下丘脑-垂体中的某种东西，即所谓的压力轴，即肾上腺？

So hypothalamic–pituitary–adrenal axis.

所以下丘脑-垂体-肾上腺轴。

Is it elevated cortisol, or could it literally be an immune neural interaction of some other sort?

是皮质醇升高，还是实际上是某种其他类型的免疫神经相互作用？

David Linden: It's probably the last thing you mentioned, an immune neural interaction.

大卫·林登：这可能是你提到的最后一件事，免疫神经相互作用。

And the reason I say that is that Gloria Choi at MIT, together with her collaborators, has made a mouse model of this phenomena.

我这么说的原因是，麻省理工学院的格洛丽亚·崔 (Gloria Choi) 与她的合作者一起制作了这种现象的小鼠模型。

So she takes pregnant female mice, and she injects them with something that she doesn't actually infect them with virus.

因此，她给怀孕的雌性老鼠注射了一些实际上不会让它们感染病毒的东西。

She puts a chemical in that is on the coat of viruses that mimics viral infection.

她在病毒外壳上放入了一种化学物质来模拟病毒感染。

And then what happens is that, in a way that, interestingly, is an interaction with the bacterial content of her gut produces a surge of an immune signaling molecule called interleukin-17.

有趣的是，随后发生的事情是，与她肠道内的细菌内容物相互作用，产生了一种称为白细胞介素 17 的免疫信号分子激增。

Interleukin-17 can pass through the placenta into the fetus, and if it's present, just as you said, at a particular point in development, doesn't work anywhere during pregnancy, but during something that is sort of the mouse equivalent of the first trimester, if that occurs, it causes disordered development of the layers of the cortex.

Interleukin-17可以通过胎盘进入胎儿，如果它存在，就像你说的，在发育的特定时刻，在怀孕期间的任何地方都不起作用，但在相当于小鼠妊娠早期的情况下，如果发生这种情况，它会导致皮质层的发育紊乱。

Instead of it looking like layers of a cake, you see balls and clumps of cells.

你看到的不是蛋糕层，而是球和细胞团。

And parenthetically, in some, but not all, post mortem tissue from autistic people, you can also see those balls and clumps of cells.

顺便说一句，在一些（但不是全部）自闭症患者的死后组织中，您还可以看到那些球和细胞团。

Andrew Huberman: Are those balls and clumps of cells thought to reflect alterations in cell migration?

Andrew Huberman：这些细胞球和细胞团是否被认为反映了细胞迁移的变化？

David Linden: They are, yes.

大卫·林登：是的，是的。

I don't know if it's entirely known how much of it is cell division or migration, but certainly migration is a part of it.

我不知道是否完全知道其中有多少是细胞分裂或迁移，但迁移肯定是其中的一部分。

And it's very likely that that critical moment to disrupt this ordering of the brain and produce these increases in schizophrenia or autism vulnerability are coming at a point where neurons are migrating during development.

破坏大脑这种秩序并导致精神分裂症或自闭症脆弱性增加的关键时刻很可能出现在神经元在发育过程中迁移的时刻。

And so what Choi's group did is they did all the things you would want to do as a biologist.

因此，崔的团队所做的是，他们做了作为生物学家想做的所有事情。

So they gave things to block the function of this interleukin signaling molecule, and it blocked the phenomenon.

因此他们给予了一些东西来阻断这种白细胞介素信号分子的功能，并且它阻断了这种现象。

They artificially injected the signaling molecule into fetal brain when the mom hadn't been stressed, and they could reproduce it.

当母亲没有受到压力时，他们将信号分子人工注射到胎儿大脑中，并且可以复制它。

So I'm not saying that there aren't effects of stress hormones from the hypothalamic-pituitary axis that are important that you mentioned, but in this mouse model system work, it seems that you can produce it through this immune signaling pathway.

所以我并不是说下丘脑-垂体轴的应激激素没有你提到的重要影响，但在这个小鼠模型系统工作中，似乎你可以通过这种免疫信号通路产生它。

So then the question is, well, are these mice autistic?

那么问题来了，这些老鼠是自闭症吗？

Well, how do you know if a mouse is autistic?

那么，你怎么知道一只老鼠是否患有自闭症呢？

And the answer is, it's actually a little vague, right?

答案是，实际上有点模糊，对吧？

There are behaviors that neuroscientists say are analogous of human autism, and one of them is, if you give a mouse a marble in its home cage, it will bury it over and over again compulsively, or bury many marbles.

神经科学家称有些行为类似于人类自闭症，其中之一是，如果你在老鼠的笼子里放一块弹珠，它会不由自主地一遍又一遍地埋掉它，或者埋很多弹珠。

And people say that that is somehow analogous to some of the compulsive behaviors you see in autism.

人们说这在某种程度上类似于自闭症患者的一些强迫行为。

It's a bit of a stretch, right?

这有点牵强，对吧？

I mean, it's a challenge to interpret mouse behavior in human terms, but it's a reasonable first step.

我的意思是，用人类的角度解释老鼠的行为是一个挑战，但这是合理的第一步。

Andrew Huberman: Incredible.

安德鲁·休伯曼：难以置信。

And I hope more will continue to be done as it surrounds the first trimester influenza hypothesis, because it's been around a while, and obviously there's a spectrum of what we call autism, Asperger's and nowadays people refer to it as sometimes as neuroatypical.

我希望围绕妊娠早期流感假说继续开展更多工作，因为它已经存在了一段时间，显然存在一系列我们所说的自闭症、阿斯伯格症，现在人们有时将其称为神经非典型症。

There's some high functioning people with autism.

有些高功能的人患有自闭症。

There's some low functioning people with autism, and for that matter, there's some high functioning and low functioning people who don't have autism.

有些人患有自闭症，功能低下，就此而言，有些人功能高，有些人没有自闭症，但功能低下。

But it is something that I think demands our attention and that hopefully will be resolved at some point, because also influenza is but one immune insult.

但我认为这是需要我们关注的事情，希望能在某个时候得到解决，因为流感也只是一种免疫损伤。

And presumably pregnant women are being bombarded with all sorts of viruses and bacteria and fungal infections and fighting them off, or not fighting them off.

想必孕妇正在遭受各种病毒、细菌和真菌感染的轰炸，并与它们作斗争，或者不与它们作斗争。

And who knows what the variation in neuroimmune interactions exist in there that give rise to good variation, and let's call it debilitating variation.

谁知道其中存在哪些神经免疫相互作用的变化，这些变化会产生良好的变化，我们称之为使人衰弱的变化。

David Linden: Well, that's absolutely right.

大卫·林登：嗯，这是绝对正确的。

And so one example is that we don't know what the effects are on the children who were in utero while their mothers were fighting off COVID.

举个例子，我们不知道当母亲在抗击新冠病毒时，这对子宫内的孩子会产生什么影响。

We won't know for a while, or the common cold, and there might be nothing, or there might be something serious lurking there, like there was for pandemic flu.

我们暂时不会知道，或者是普通感冒，可能什么都没有，或者可能有一些严重的东西潜伏在那里，就像大流行性流感一样。

And it'll be very interesting and important to find out.

找出答案将非常有趣且重要。

Andrew Huberman: Agreed.

安德鲁·休伯曼：同意。

I'd love to talk with you about mind-body, but before we do that, I would be totally remiss if I didn't ask for your broad top contour understanding of the mini brain, the cerebellum.

我很想和你谈谈身心，但在我们这样做之前，如果我没有询问你对迷你大脑（小脑）的广泛顶部轮廓的理解，那我就完全失职了。

The so called mini brain.

所谓的迷你大脑。

And here's why.

原因如下。

I've been a practicing neuroscientist for close to three decades.

我作为一名执业神经科学家已有近三十年的历史。

I know where the cerebellum is.

我知道小脑在哪里。

I've dissected a bunch of them.

我已经解剖了其中的一堆。

I could tell you where a few things are in there, and I certainly have read about what the cerebellum does.

我可以告诉你其中有一些东西，而且我当然已经读过有关小脑的作用的内容。

But whenever I do a PubMed search on cerebellum, I see an ever expanding set of things that the cerebellum is implicated in.

但每当我对小脑进行 PubMed 搜索时，我都会看到与小脑有关的一系列事物不断扩大。

Not just balance, as most people hear, but also timing, also cognition.

正如大多数人听到的那样，不仅仅是平衡，还有时机，还有认知。

I hear about timing, in particular of motor behavior.

我听说过时间，特别是运动行为。

But then I also hear that it's involved in learning and not just motor learning, and it certainly is involved in motor learning.

但后来我也听说它涉及学习而不仅仅是运动学习，而且它确实涉及运动学习。

Perhaps that little mini brain is doing 50 or 1000 different things.

也许那个迷你大脑正在做 50 或 1000 种不同的事情。

But how should we think about the cerebellum?

但我们应该如何看待小脑呢？

What is it doing?

它在做什么？

And what are some of its core operations that inform both what it's doing and perhaps what other areas of the brain are doing as well, because I can point to the retinas or to auditory cortex or to the thalamus.

它的一些核心操作是什么，既可以告诉我们它正在做什么，也可以告诉大脑的其他区域正在做什么，因为我可以指向视网膜、听觉皮层或丘脑。

And yes, there's some mysterious nuclei in the brain, but to me, the cerebellum is one of the most cryptic and complicated structures to understand.

是的，大脑中有一些神秘的核团，但对我来说，小脑是最神秘、最复杂的结构之一。

And I know you spent some time in there, so what's the cerebellum do?

我知道你在那里呆了一段时间，那么小脑有什么作用呢？

David Linden: Well, cerebellar researchers like to joke that the cerebellum is a counterweight to keep your head from falling forward.

大卫·林登：嗯，小脑研究人员喜欢开玩笑说，小脑是防止你的头向前倾的平衡物。

Andrew Huberman: Oh, perfect.

安德鲁·休伯曼：哦，完美。

Well, with all the texting nowadays, people need bigger cerebellum.

嗯，现在短信泛滥，人们需要更大的小脑。

David Linden: That's right.

大卫·林登：没错。

Probably over many generations.

大概是好几代人了。

Andrew Huberman : .

安德鲁·休伯曼：。

Then that will happen along with an expansion of the thumbs.

然后，随着拇指的扩张，这种情况就会发生。

But of course, everybody's going to text with their mind in about another ten years.

当然，大约再过十年，每个人都会用意念发短信。

Right.

正确的。

You'll have Elon's implant and you won't need your thumbs at all.

你将拥有埃隆的植入物，并且根本不需要你的拇指。

Andrew Huberman: Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。

Or maybe just five.

或者也许只有五个。

Or my friend Edward Chang, who's a neurosurgeon and works on the auditory system.

或者我的朋友爱德华·张（Edward Chang），他是一名神经外科医生，研究听觉系统。

He's been on this podcast before.

他以前参加过这个播客。

He was saying that in theory and actually in practice, you could just record the neural output to the muscles of the speech system, essentially, and you could just amplify that and you could text without actually speaking.

他说，从理论上和实际上在实践中，本质上你可以只记录语音系统肌肉的神经输出，然后你可以放大它，你可以在不实际说话的情况下发短信。

In fact, when we read, he told me, we are actually receiving the signals as if we were going to speak the words we're reading, but they don't quite arrive at the place where you could get a full blown postsynaptic potential.

事实上，他告诉我，当我们阅读时，我们实际上正在接收信号，就好像我们要说出我们正在阅读的单词一样，但它们并没有完全到达可以充分发挥突触后潜力的地方。

So you're not actually moving the vocal machinery.

所以你实际上并没有移动发声装置。

So that means the motor signals are getting sent out there, and so you're speaking what you are reading, but you just don't know it.

这意味着运动信号被发送出去，所以你正在说出你正在阅读的内容，但你只是不知道。

David Linden: That's right.

大卫·林登：没错。

And it's very analogous to what happens during the REM phase of sleep.

这与快速眼动睡眠阶段发生的情况非常相似。

When you have commands, your brain is issuing commands to your muscles to do things like behave in your dreams, to run away or go here or go there.

当你接到命令时，你的大脑会向你的肌肉发出命令，让你做一些事情，比如在梦中表现得好，逃跑或者去这里或者去那里。

But those signals actually are blocked in the brainstem, prevented from reaching your muscles, because the nerves that don't go through your brainstem, like the ones that control your eye movements, aren't subject to that blockade.

但这些信号实际上在脑干中被阻挡，无法到达肌肉，因为不穿过脑干的神经，比如控制眼球运动的神经，不会受到这种封锁。

That's why you can produce the rapid eye movements in REM sleep.

这就是为什么你可以在快速眼动睡眠中产生快速的眼球运动。

But, yeah, this is a general theme in the brain.

但是，是的，这是大脑中的一个普遍主题。

A lot of times, you have the output, but then you shut it down.

很多时候，您有输出，但随后将其关闭。

And there are REM sleep behavior disorders where people thrash and move in their sleep during REM, and it's because this outflow that's normally blocked isn't blocked.

还有快速眼动睡眠行为障碍，人们在快速眼动睡眠期间会扭动和移动，这是因为通常被阻止的这种流出没有被阻止。

Andrew Huberman: Have you ever had the reverse happen?

Andrew Huberman：你遇到过相反的情况吗？

I have.

我有。

Where you wake up and you're still in so called REM atonia.

当你醒来时，你仍然处于所谓的快速眼动乏力状态。

You're still paralyzed, and there's that split second that feels like eternity, where you are wide awake and you cannot move.

你仍然处于瘫痪状态，那一瞬间感觉就像永恒，你完全清醒，无法动弹。

And I'll tell you, it's terrifying.

我会告诉你，这很可怕。

David Linden: Yeah, it's sleep paralysis and know it's been known forever.

大卫·林登：是的，这是睡眠瘫痪，而且众所周知，这是众所周知的。

You can actually find ancient Greek depictions of people lying with a demon on their chest, paralyzing them, and that is actually from sleep paralysis.

你实际上可以找到古希腊的描述，人们的胸口上躺着一个恶魔，使他们瘫痪，而这实际上是由于睡眠瘫痪。

Later, Hogarth did a drawing of exactly that.

后来，霍加斯为此画了一幅图画。

So, yes, this is a well known phenomenon.

所以，是的，这是一个众所周知的现象。

But to get back to the cerebellum, as we started.

但回到小脑，正如我们开始的那样。

So, the cerebellum is, as you said, definitely involved in motor coordination.

所以，正如你所说，小脑肯定参与运动协调。

So, people who have damage to the cerebellum aren't paralyzed, but they tend to be clumsy.

因此，小脑受损的人不会瘫痪，但他们往往会变得笨拙。

They tend to not coordinate their movements.

他们往往不协调自己的动作。

They have a disturbed gait.

他们的步态不安。

If they're reaching for an object, they often overshoot it and have to make successive approximating motions to get back to their target.

如果他们伸手去够一个物体，他们经常会超出目标，并且必须做出连续的接近动作才能回到目标。

So that's well understood.

所以这很好理解。

But if you look through evolution, the cerebellum is connected to this brain region called the thalamus, and it's connected from there to many regions, including the frontal cortex, where phenomena like planning and decision making and moral sense and many aspects of personality seem to be encoded.

但如果你纵观进化过程，你会发现小脑与称为丘脑的大脑区域相连，并从那里与许多区域相连，包括额叶皮层，在那里，规划、决策、道德感和人格的许多方面等现象似乎都被编码。

So then the question becomes, well, that's very far away from being clumsy.

那么问题就变成了，嗯，这远非笨拙。

What are these connections doing?

这些连接在做什么？

And as time has gone on, I've been in this business for over 40 years now.

随着时间的推移，我从事这个行业已经有 40 多年了。

I'm an old guy.

我是个老家伙了。

And so initially we said, oh, yeah, cerebellum movement control, motor coordination, that's what it's for.

所以最初我们说，哦，是的，小脑运动控制、运动协调，这就是它的作用。

As time goes on, as you correctly said, the cerebellum has been implicated in more and more functions, many of which are far removed from the motor system.

随着时间的推移，正如您所说，小脑涉及越来越多的功能，其中许多功能与运动系统相距甚远。

And if we're looking for a theme about what the cerebellum does, is that it is there to predict the immediate future.

如果我们要寻找有关小脑功能的主题，那就是它可以预测不久的将来。

It's trying to determine what's going to happen in the next second or two to best guide behavior.

它试图确定下一两秒内会发生什么，以最好地指导行为。

And as you can imagine, this kind of general computation could be applied very well.

正如你可以想象的那样，这种通用计算可以得到很好的应用。

You can see why it's important for motor systems and doing sports, and if you're trying to hit a baseball and looking at what the pitcher is doing and trying to anticipate what the pitch is, but it also comes up in a social realm.

您会明白为什么它对于运动系统和进行运动很重要，如果您尝试击打棒球并观察投手在做什么并尝试预测投球情况，但它也会出现在社交领域。

If we're trying to read someone and predict what they are going to do, is this person friend or foe?

如果我们试图读懂某人并预测他们将要做什么，那么这个人是朋友还是敌人？

Which is one of the first things that we try to assess when meeting someone.

这是我们在与某人见面时首先尝试评估的事情之一。

Are they competent?

他们有能力吗？

Which is the second thing we try to assess when meeting something.

这是我们在遇到某事时尝试评估的第二件事。

A lot of this depends upon predictive circuitry, and it depends in part on the cerebellum, and it seems to be at least partially impaired in people who sustain cerebellar damage.

这在很大程度上取决于预测回路，部分取决于小脑，而小脑受损的人似乎至少部分受损。

So it seems as if, interestingly, the cerebellum started out for prediction related for motor control, and through evolution, its basic computation has been applied to other non motor behaviors.

有趣的是，小脑似乎最初是用于与运动控制相关的预测，并且通过进化，其基本计算已应用于其他非运动行为。

Now, I'm speaking in generalities, and a lot of the details of this remain to be worked out and understood, but I would say that is, in a nutshell, the modern conception of the cerebellum.

现在，我只是泛泛而谈，其中的许多细节仍有待解决和理解，但我想说，简而言之，这就是小脑的现代概念。

Andrew Huberman: Thank you.

安德鲁·休伯曼：谢谢。

Finally, somebody explains to me at a top contour but highly informed way, what the cerebellum does.

最后，有人以最全面但信息丰富的方式向我解释了小脑的作用。

I couldn't be more grateful.

我非常感激。

David Linden: My pleasure.

大卫·林登：我很高兴。

Andrew Huberman: In all aspects of biology and life, the term nature versus nurture is relevant, but never so much as when thinking about the nervous system.

安德鲁·休伯曼：在生物学和生活的各个方面，“先天”与“后天”这一术语都是相关的，但在考虑神经系统时却没有那么重要。

And I know this firsthand because I've studied neural development, both the nature side, the so called hardwired stuff that genes just set up, neurons wire up to that neuron, etc. The cerebellum is in the back, the eyes are in the front, the hardwired stuff, and then the soft wired stuff, the nurture stuff, is the stuff that can be modified by experience.

我直接了解这一点，因为我研究过神经发育，无论是自然方面，还是基因刚刚建立的所谓硬连线的东西，神经元连接到神经元等。小脑在后面，眼睛在前面，硬连线的东西，然后是软连线的东西，后天的东西，是可以通过经验修改的东西。

What are your thoughts on nature versus nurture, and should there even be a versus in there?

您对先天与后天的看法如何？其中是否应该存在对立？

David Linden: Yeah, I don't think there should.

大卫·林登：是的，我认为不应该。

And I have a lot of problems with nature versus nurture as an expression.

我对先天与后天作为表达方式有很多疑问。

It was popularized by Francis Galton in the 19th century, a colleague of Darwin's.

它是由达尔文的同事弗朗西斯·高尔顿在 19 世纪推广的。

And I think it's wrong or misleading in a lot of ways.

我认为这在很多方面都是错误的或具有误导性的。

So, of course, the nature in nature versus nurture is meant, in this case, to mean inheritability, right?

所以，当然，在这种情况下，先天与后天的本质意味着可遗传性，对吗？

What you inherit in the gene variations from your mother and father.

您从父母那里继承了基因变异。

And nurture means like how your parents or your community raised you.

养育意味着你的父母或社区如何养育你。

The problem I have with nurture is that it is too narrow a term that really, it should be replaced with the word experience, and experience in the broadest possible sense.

我对培养的问题是，它是一个太狭隘的术语，实际上，它应该被“经验”一词所取代，并且是最广泛意义上的经验。

Not just social experience, but the foods your mother ate when she was carrying you in utero, the diseases you fought off or your mother fought off while she was carrying you in utero, the bacterial population of your gut.

不仅仅是社会经历，还有你母亲在子宫里怀着你时吃的食物、你或你母亲在子宫里怀着你时抵抗的疾病、你肠道里的细菌数量。

So experience, meaning anything that impinges on you starting from the earliest stages of fetal development, continuing to the last day of your life, I think it should be very expansive, much, much more than social experience in the family or the community.

因此，体验，意味着从胎儿发育的最早阶段开始，一直到生命的最后一天，对你产生影响的任何事情，我认为它应该非常广泛，比家庭或社区的社会体验要广泛得多。

And as you mentioned, I have a problem with versus, because there's this idea that these things are essentially in opposition.

正如你提到的，我对对抗有意见，因为有这样的想法，这些东西本质上是对立的。

Well, is he that way because of his gene variance, or is that way because of what happened to him?

那么，他是因为基因变异而变成这样，还是因为他身上发生了什么事？

And I think the thing to realize is that experience and heredity interact in all kinds of interesting ways, some of which are oppositional and some of which are reinforcing.

我认为需要认识到的是，经验和遗传以各种有趣的方式相互作用，其中有些是对立的，有些是加强的。

A classic one from genetics, has to do with a genetic disease called Phenylketonuria, or PKU, which is an inability to metabolize the dietary amino acid phenylalanine.

遗传学中的一个经典问题与一种称为苯丙酮尿症（PKU）的遗传病有关，这种疾病无法代谢膳食氨基酸苯丙氨酸。

And so in order to have this, you have to inherit broken copies of this gene from both your mother and your father.

因此，为了拥有这个基因，你必须从你的母亲和父亲那里继承这个基因的损坏副本。

So it's a so called recessive trait.

所以这是一种所谓的隐性特征。

And here's where the experience comes in.

这就是体验的用武之地。

It only matters if you eat foods rich in phenylalanine.

仅当您食用富含苯丙氨酸的食物时才重要。

If you don't, it doesn't matter that you inherited these things, right?

如果你不这样做，你继承这些东西也没关系，对吧？

So that's a way in which genes and experience interact, an idea of ways in which they interact positively.

这就是基因和经验相互作用的一种方式，一种它们积极相互作用的方式的想法。

Think about athletic ability.

考虑运动能力。

Right?

正确的？

So a lot of athletic ability has a heritable component.

所以很多运动能力都有可遗传的成分。

If you are born fast, for example, then you're more likely to do sports and practice them and get better sports as a result of your experience.

例如，如果你出生得快，那么你更有可能参加体育运动并进行练习，并根据你的经验获得更好的运动。

So here, genes and experience are feeding back on each other in a positive feedback loop.

所以在这里，基因和经验在正反馈循环中相互反馈。

So there really isn't a versus at all.

所以根本不存在对立。

And then, of course, the last thing is that this isn't the entirety.

当然，最后一件事是这还不是全部。

So we talked earlier about the pseudo random nature of development, stochastic development.

所以我们之前谈到了发展的伪随机性，即随机发展。

And so if I were to take the phrase nature versus nurture and reconfigure it, I would change it to read heritability, interacting with experience filtered through the random nature of development.

因此，如果我要采用“先天与后天”这个短语并重新配置它，我会将其更改为“遗传性”，与通过发展的随机性过滤的经验进行交互。

Now, that doesn't fall off the tongue as elegantly as nature versus nurture.

现在，这并不像先天与后天的对比那样优雅地从舌头上消失。

Nature versus nurture is like, if the gloves don't fit, you must quit.

先天与后天的对比就像，如果手套不合身，你就必须放弃。

It's got that kind of snappy snare drum beat, but I think it's a more accurate.

它有那种活泼的军鼓节奏，但我认为它更准确。

Andrew Huberman: So heritability, interacting with experience, filtered through the randomness of development.

Andrew Huberman：因此，遗传性与经验相互作用，通过发展的随机性进行过滤。

David Linden: Yeah.

大卫·林登：是的。

Andrew Huberman: So we can shorten that up and we'll just call it the Linden hypothesis.

Andrew Huberman：所以我们可以缩短它，我们将其称为林登假设。

David Linden: I don't think I can take credit for that.

David Linden：我认为这不能归功于我。

It belongs to other people.

它属于其他人。

Andrew Huberman: Sure.

安德鲁·休伯曼：当然。

But there's a long history in science of things being shortened up and coined, and that's as important.

但在科学中，事物被缩短和创造的历史由来已久，这同样重要。

We're not trying to rob attribution here.

我们并不是想在这里剥夺归属权。

And the good news is, perhaps you can't call it the Linden hypothesis, but I can.

好消息是，也许你不能称之为林登假说，但我可以。

David Linden: Alright.

大卫·林登：好的。

Andrew Huberman: And what I found is, as with the Galpin equation, which is now out there as a hydration, it's a formula that gives broad but research informed parameters as to how much water one should drink in order to maintain proper hydration.

Andrew Huberman：我发现，就像现在作为水合作用的加尔平方程一样，它是一个公式，它提供了广泛但有研究依据的参数，说明一个人应该喝多少水才能保持适当的水合作用。

For physiologist Dr. Andy Galpin, who's a PhD in physiology and an expert in all aspects of exercise science, there's the Galpin equation, there's the Soeberg principle.

生理学家安迪·加尔平 (Andy Galpin) 博士是生理学博士，也是运动科学各方面的专家，对于他来说，有加尔平方程，有索伯格原理。

So I'm naming these things left and right where appropriate.

所以我在适当的地方对这些东西进行左右命名。

So I'm naming these things sparingly and where appropriate.

所以我在适当的地方谨慎地命名这些东西。

So from here on out, heritability, interacting with experience, filtered through the randomness of development, is the Linden hypothesis.

因此，从现在开始，遗传力与经验相互作用，通过发展的随机性进行过滤，这就是林登假设。

And I'll be damned if anyone's going to rename it faster than I'm going to propagate it.

如果有人比我传播它更快地重命名它，我会被诅咒的。

David Linden: All right, well, I think all the geneticists will be gnashing their teeth about this being named after someone who isn't actually a geneticist.

大卫·林登：好吧，我想所有的遗传学家都会因为这个以实际上不是遗传学家的名字命名而咬牙切齿。

Andrew Huberman: Quite all right.

安德鲁·休伯曼：很好。

And their dentists will thank me.

他们的牙医会感谢我的。

David Linden : Let's talk about mind-body.

大卫·林登：我们来谈谈身心吧。

David Linden: Okay.

大卫·林登：好的。

Andrew Huberman: I'm fascinated by this for a couple of reasons, and I promise to keep this brief.

Andrew Huberman：出于几个原因，我对此很着迷，我保证会保持简短。

But when I was growing up, I was very interested in animals and biology, and my father's a scientist, and I got very interested in neuroscience early, as people perhaps know.

但在我成长的过程中，我对动物和生物学非常感兴趣，而我的父亲是一名科学家，人们可能知道，我很早就对神经科学非常感兴趣。

And so much of neuroscience as I was coming up through the mid-90's, 2000's, 2010 to 2020 stretch was focused on the brain piece, very little on the body.

我在 90 年代中期、2000 年代、2010 年到 2020 年期间接触的神经科学大部分都集中在大脑部分，很少关注身体。

There was nothing about gut brain access in the early discussions and coursework.

在早期的讨论和课程作业中，没有任何关于肠道大脑访问的内容。

In parallel to all of that, I've been interested in mental health, physical health, and let's just call it performance, and got interested in meditation, respiration based practices, things like Yoga Nidra, things that by way of experience, I understood immediately had a profound influence on the nervous system states of mind and body.

与此同时，我对心理健康、身体健康感兴趣，我们就称之为表现，并对冥想、呼吸练习、瑜伽休息术等感兴趣，通过体验，我立即了解到对身心的神经系统状态有深远影响的东西。

Nowadays, there's an entire institute at the National Institutes of Health for Complementary Health and medicine essentially exploring things like Yoga Nidra, respiration practices, even supplements and things of that sort.

如今，美国国立卫生研究院有一个完整的补充健康和医学研究所，主要研究瑜伽休息术、呼吸练习，甚至补充剂之类的东西。

And there's this understanding that, oh, my goodness, the nervous system extends into the body, and the body sends neural signals back into the brain.

有一种理解是，哦，天哪，神经系统延伸到身体，身体将神经信号发送回大脑。

And so this whole notion of mind-body has fortunately migrated away from kind of California counterculture Esalen Institute only hippie, New Age, magic carpet stuff, by the way.

因此，幸运的是，整个身心概念已经从加州伊莎伦学院的反主流文化中转移出来，顺便说一句，只有嬉皮士、新时代、魔毯之类的东西。

That's not what I believe, but that's often how it was looked at in the past.

我不这么认为，但过去人们常常这样看待它。

And now people at every level of science and medicine, at every major university and in every scientific journal are starting to publish papers about the interactions between bodily organs, like the breathing apparati, the diaphragm, lungs, the heart, heart rate variability.

现在，科学和医学各个层面、各大大学和科学期刊上的人们都开始发表有关身体器官之间相互作用的论文，例如呼吸装置、隔膜、肺、心脏、心率变异性。

We hear about the liver, the gut brain axis in particular.

我们听说过肝脏，特别是肠脑轴。

And so mind-body, the idea that our thoughts could influence our body and that our bodily state could influence our thoughts is fortunately not just understood, but it seems to be both accepted and appreciated.

因此，身心，我们的思想可以影响我们的身体，我们的身体状态可以影响我们的思想，幸运的是，这种想法不仅被理解，而且似乎被接受和赞赏。

So what are your thoughts on mind-body?

那么你对身心有何看法？

What does that mean to you?

这对你来说意味着什么？

And what do you think is the potential of the mind-body interaction?

您认为身心互动的潜力是什么？

It seems to me we've just barely scratched the surface.

在我看来，我们仅仅触及了表面。

David Linden: Yeah, well, I'm glad you asked, because I think it's a really fascinating situation and where things are changing very, very quickly.

大卫·林登：是的，我很高兴你问这个问题，因为我认为这是一个非常令人着迷的情况，而且事情变化得非常非常快。

And I think to me, the most important thing for people to understand is that when you have a hypothesis, let's say you have a hypothesis that meditation can attenuate chronic pain.

我认为对我来说，人们要理解的最重要的事情是，当你有一个假设时，假设你有一个假设，即冥想可以减轻慢性疼痛。

Well, there is a temptation to think that this operates outside the realm of science and biology, that it is in some airy fairy realm in the clouds that this happens for good reason.

好吧，人们很容易认为这是在科学和生物学领域之外发生的，在云中的某个空中仙境中，这种情况的发生是有充分理由的。

There are a lot of people who will describe it in exactly that way with auras or they coop scientific terms like resonance and energy, but they don't actually use them in scientific ways.

有很多人会用光环来准确地描述它，或者他们使用共振和能量等科学术语，但他们实际上并没有以科学的方式使用它们。

So there's a lot of very fuzzy language that surrounds this.

因此，围绕这一点有很多非常模糊的语言。

But it shouldn't obscure the fact that when you have a hypothesis that, say, some mental state, like meditation or guided breathing affects some process in the body, that you should be trying to understand this in terms of a biological hypothesis, not in terms of some indistinct realm that is different.

但这不应该掩盖这样一个事实：当你有一个假设，比如冥想或引导呼吸等某种精神状态会影响身体的某些过程时，你应该尝试从生物学假设的角度来理解这一点，而不是从一些不同的模糊领域来理解这一点。

Andrew Huberman: Like manifestation.

Andrew Huberman：就像表现一样。

David Linden: Yeah, I really learned this initially from my father.

大卫·林登：是的，我最初确实是从我父亲那里学到这一点的。

My father was a psychiatrist, in fact, kind of a talking cure, old fashioned psychoanalyst had his practice in Los Angeles, and we would have dinner together every Wednesday night, and he would always tell me about his patients.

我的父亲是一位精神科医生，事实上，有点能说话的治疗方法，老式的精神分析师在洛杉矶行医，我们每周三晚上都会一起吃晚饭，他总是会告诉我他的病人的情况。

He was very careful to keep confidentiality.

他非常小心地保守秘密。

He wouldn't break confidentiality, but I would say, oh, yes.

他不会违反保密规定，但我会说，哦，是的。

How's your narcissist doing?

你的自恋者怎么样了？

Oh, he had this dream.

哦，他有这个梦想。

This was normal conversation when I was 14-15 years old with my dad.

这是我 14-15 岁时与父亲的正常对话。

And one day I said, dad, it's really clear to me that through this talking cure, a large fraction of your patients feel better and they conquer their depression or their obsessive thoughts or things that are blocking them.

有一天我说，爸爸，我很清楚，通过这种谈话疗法，很大一部分患者感觉好多了，他们克服了抑郁症、强迫性想法或阻碍他们的事物。

How do you think it works?

你认为它如何运作？

And he says, well, we don't really know the mechanics, but ultimately, when it works, it's not working in some airy fairy realm.

他说，好吧，我们并不真正了解其中的机制，但最终，当它起作用时，它在某些空灵的仙境中不起作用。

It is working by changing the biology of the brain.

它通过改变大脑的生物学来发挥作用。

And when he said that, it was like a lightning bolt went off in my head.

当他说出这句话时，我的脑海里就像一道闪电划过。

And I thought, well, I don't have the kind of personality to be a talking cure psychiatrist.

我想，好吧，我不具备成为一名能说话的治疗精神科医生的性格。

I'm not nearly nice enough, but I could understand the underlying biology.

我不够友善，但我可以理解潜在的生物学原理。

Maybe I'll do that.

也许我会这么做。

And so, as you've correctly pointed out, when you say the phrase mind-body, you're talking about two directions.

因此，正如您正确指出的那样，当您说“身心”这个短语时，您正在谈论两个方向。

You're talking about mental functions affecting the body, and then you are also talking about how phenomena in the body affect the mind.

你在谈论影响身体的心理功能，然后你也在谈论身体中的现象如何影响心灵。

And we're understanding so much more about how that happens.

我们对这是如何发生的有了更多的了解。

And I think the general thing for your listeners to appreciate is that we have some culprits here.

我认为听众普遍要欣赏的是，我们这里有一些罪魁祸首。

Right?

正确的？

And generally speaking, there are two classes of culprits.

一般来说，罪魁祸首有两类。

So if you want to get signals about the body to the mind, there's two ways to do that.

因此，如果你想将身体的信号传递给大脑，有两种方法可以做到。

One of them is through neurons that reach out into the body and sense things.

其中之一是通过神经元进入身体并感知事物。

And this is referred to as interoception.

这被称为内感受。

Right?

正确的？

So as opposed to exteroception your outward pointing senses.

因此，与外感相反的是你的向外指向的感觉。

These are the senses that monitor your own body.

这些是监控你自己身体的感官。

And while we can consciously be aware of a lot of that information, a lot of it is happening subconsciously, like your breathing is happening automatically most of the time without you thinking about it.

虽然我们可以有意识地意识到很多信息，但很多信息都是在潜意识中发生的，就像你的呼吸大多数时候是在你不假思索的情况下自动发生的。

And that depends upon sensors about your blood chemistry and the state of your lungs and a number of other things that are regulating that process.

这取决于有关您的血液化学和肺部状态的传感器以及调节该过程的许多其他因素。

And it's all happening in the brain, usually below the level of your conscious attention.

这一切都发生在大脑中，通常低于你有意识的注意力水平。

In addition to the neural signals, there is also a whole realm of hormonal or diffusible immune signals.

除了神经信号之外，还有整个领域的激素或可扩散的免疫信号。

And what these are is that these are chemicals that are released into the bloodstream and that move throughout the body and that can activate neurons in the brain or in other parts of the nervous system to produce changes in mental function.

这些化学物质被释放到血液中并在整个身体中移动，可以激活大脑或神经系统其他部分的神经元，从而产生心理功能的变化。

And I think the real thing that is exciting a lot of people right now has to do with immune signaling molecules.

我认为现在让很多人兴奋的真正事情与免疫信号分子有关。

So there's a class of molecules called cytokines.

所以有一类分子叫做细胞因子。

And cytokines are basically the signaling hormones of the immune system, and they can flow through the bloodstream and through lymphatic fluid and reach many parts of the body.

细胞因子基本上是免疫系统的信号激素，它们可以通过血液和淋巴液流动到达身体的许多部位。

We've known for a number of years that the specialized receptors for these cytokines are found throughout the brain, and yet we know very little about what they do.

多年来我们就知道这些细胞因子的特殊受体遍布大脑，但我们对它们的作用却知之甚少。

And that's going to be an astonishingly fruitful area of scientific research.

这将是一个硕果累累的科学研究领域。

But to give one exemplar, there are a lot of things these days suggesting a link between inflammation in the body, whether it be in the gut or in other places, to depression.

但举一个例子，现在有很多事情表明体内炎症（无论是肠道还是其他部位）与抑郁症之间存在联系。

Well, how might that work?

嗯，那怎么可能呢？

Well, it could work either through inflammation sensing neurons sending electrical signals to the brain, or, and it's not either or, it could be both.

嗯，它可以通过炎症感知神经元向大脑发送电信号来发挥作用，或者，它不是两者之一，也可能是两者兼而有之。

It could be immune signaling, cytokine molecules produced at the site of inflammation that then travel through the bloodstream and the lymphatic system to then reach the brain, bind receptors, and have effects.

它可能是免疫信号，炎症部位产生的细胞因子分子，然后通过血流和淋巴系统到达大脑，结合受体并产生作用。

And so one of the mysteries about depression is that it's not that tractable to pharmacological therapy.

因此，抑郁症的谜团之一是它不太容易通过药物治疗来治疗。

So if you look at people who suffer with depression, about a third of people see significant benefit from modern SSRI and related antidepressant drugs.

因此，如果观察一下患有抑郁症的人，大约三分之一的人会从现代 SSRI 和相关抗抑郁药物中看到显着的益处。

About a third see very tiny benefit, and about a third see no benefit at all.

大约三分之一的人看到的好处非常小，大约三分之一的人认为没有任何好处。

And part of the reason is because maybe our term depression is too big a bucket.

部分原因是因为我们的术语抑郁症可能太大了。

Depression is actually many different biological disorders, and only a subset of those are helped by SSRIs and will need different therapies for the other ones.

抑郁症实际上是多种不同的生物疾病，只有其中一部分可以通过 SSRI 类药物得到缓解，而其他疾病则需要不同的治疗方法。

That's certainly part of it.

这当然是其中的一部分。

But part of it might actually have to do with inflammation.

但部分原因实际上可能与炎症有关。

So if you think that inflammation is a risk factor in depression, well, you could do something very simple, right?

因此，如果您认为炎症是抑郁症的危险因素，那么您可以做一些非常简单的事情，对吧？

You could gobble an ibuprofen, right?

你可以吞下布洛芬，对吧？

There's a whole bunch of anti-inflammatory drugs that are very well understood.

有一大堆抗炎药物是众所周知的。

And so, well, what if you just say, all right, let's have a study where we have a bunch of depressed people and we have them all eat anti-inflammatory drugs for a few weeks and we see if this relieves their depression.

所以，好吧，如果你只是说，好吧，让我们进行一项研究，我们有一群抑郁症患者，我们让他们都吃抗炎药几周，我们看看这是否可以缓解他们的抑郁症。

And the answer seems to be, no, it doesn't.

答案似乎是，不，不是。

Well, and that's a little bit hard to understand because there are definitely links between inflammation and depression.

嗯，这有点难以理解，因为炎症和抑郁之间肯定存在联系。

So, for example, one of the early treatments for hepatitis C that's since been superseded by more modern drugs was a pro inflammatory cytokine molecule.

例如，丙型肝炎的早期治疗方法之一是促炎细胞因子分子，后来被更现代的药物所取代。

And when you gave it to people to treat their hepatitis C, almost everyone became depressed on this drug.

当你给人们服用它来治疗丙型肝炎时，几乎每个人都因为这种药物而变得抑郁。

So I thought, oh, well, this really seems like a link.

所以我想，哦，好吧，这看起来确实是一个链接。

Likewise, there are certain neurological diseases like multiple sclerosis.

同样，还有某些神经系统疾病，如多发性硬化症。

It turns out the incidence of depression as a comorbidity in multiple sclerosis is enormous.

事实证明，作为多发性硬化症的合并症，抑郁症的发病率非常高。

And you might think, well, there's a trivial reason for that.

你可能会想，好吧，这有一个微不足道的原因。

If you're paralyzed from MS, you're bummed out about life, and that's the reason.

如果您因多发性硬化症而瘫痪，您就会对生活感到沮丧，这就是原因。

But if you look at people who have spinal cord injuries from accidents, they actually have major depression at a rate from people who are uninjured.

但如果你观察那些因事故而脊髓受伤的人，他们患重度抑郁症的比例实际上比未受伤的人要高。

So that doesn't seem to be it.

所以看来不是这样的。

It's not just that you're bummed out from being paralyzed, although, of course, it's reasonable to be bummed out about being paralyzed, but that's not it.

不仅仅是因为瘫痪而感到沮丧，当然，因为瘫痪而感到沮丧是合理的，但事实并非如此。

So what happens in MS?

那么 MS 中会发生什么呢？

Well, there's a bunch of cytokines, including one called interleukin-6, IL-6, that's elevated massively if you take a spinal tap and you look at cerebral spinal fluid.

嗯，有很多细胞因子，包括一种叫做白细胞介素 6 (IL-6) 的细胞因子，如果你进行脊椎穿刺并观察脑脊液，它会大幅升高。

And so that could be causative for depression.

所以这可能是抑郁症的原因。

So all these real reasons to think that inflammation is involved, but yet the idea is still a bit messy.

因此，所有这些真正的理由都认为与炎症有关，但这个想法仍然有点混乱。

So now what if instead of looking at the general population of depressed people, you look at the subset of people that don't respond to SSRI, antidepressants.

那么现在如果你不关注抑郁症的总体人群，而是关注对 SSRI（抗抑郁药）没有反应的人群，会怎样呢？

Are they helped by anti-inflammatories?

他们有消炎药的帮助吗？

And there's a bit of a hint that maybe they are.

有一点暗示，也许他们确实是这样。

It's not definitive yet.

目前还不确定。

There are a couple of studies.

有几项研究。

It's right on the edge.

它就在边缘。

But I think this is a really good example of how we are going to see progress very soon in the body to mind part of mind-body medicine that is going to be of enormous benefit to people.

但我认为这是一个很好的例子，说明我们将很快看到身心医学的“身体到心灵”部分取得进展，这将为人们带来巨大的好处。

Andrew Huberman: So, interesting.

安德鲁·休伯曼：所以，很有趣。

Could I get your thoughts on one candidate hypothesis that I've been thinking about?

我能否了解您对我一直在考虑的一个候选假设的看法？

I've covered depression on a few episodes, and I've had Robin Carhart-Harris from UCSF and Dr. Matthew Johnson from your very own John Hopkins University, both of whom work run laboratories studying psychedelics for the treatment of depression.

我在几集里报道了抑郁症，还有来自加州大学旧金山分校的罗宾·卡哈特-哈里斯和来自约翰·霍普金斯大学的马修·约翰逊博士，他们都经营着研究迷幻药治疗抑郁症的实验室。

The clinical trials on psilocybin.

裸盖菇素的临床试验。

And to be clear, psilocybin is still illegal.

需要明确的是，裸盖菇素仍然是非法的。

It's been decriminalized a few places, but we're not talking about recreational use.

有些地方已经将其合法化，但我们不是在谈论娱乐用途。

We're talking about several therapy sessions, and then two without psilocybin, then 2.5 grams, approximately, dosages of psilocybin given separately, again with therapists present, and then follow up therapy sessions, seem to lead to relief of depression in approximately somewhere between 65 and 80% of people.

我们讨论的是几个治疗疗程，然后两次不使用裸盖菇素，然后分别给予约 2.5 克剂量的裸盖菇素，再次有治疗师在场，然后进行后续治疗疗程，似乎可以缓解大约 65% 至 80% 的人的抑郁症。

In some cases, total remission, in some cases, some relief without remission.

在某些情况下，完全缓解，在某些情况下，部分缓解但没有缓解。

Okay, so we can kind of set that result on the shelf.

好的，我们可以将结果搁置起来。

It's been repeated a number of different times.

它已经重复了很多次。

Compare that to the results of SSRIs, which seem to help a third of people, a third minimally, and a third not at all.

与 SSRIs 的结果相比，SSRIs 似乎对三分之一的人有帮助，三分之一的人有最低限度的帮助，还有三分之一的人根本没有帮助。

And, of course, there's the side effect profiles of the SSRIs and associated drugs.

当然，SSRIs 和相关药物也有副作用。

Not just the SSRIs, bupropion and the other antidepressants that are taken in prescription drug form.

不仅仅是 SSRIs、安非他酮和其他以处方药形式服用的抗抑郁药。

And then there's this inflammation piece.

然后就是这个炎症部分。

So, could we hypothesize that relief from depression has something to do with neuroplasticity, rewiring of neural circuits, and that psilocybin, we know, can encourage neuroplasticity.

那么，我们是否可以假设，抑郁症的缓解与神经可塑性、神经回路的重新布线有关，而我们知道，裸盖菇素可以促进神经可塑性。

And that perhaps SSRIs can encourage neuroplasticity in some people, not all.

也许 SSRIs 可以促进某些人（而非所有人）的神经可塑性。

And that inflammation is a barrier to neuroplasticity.

炎症是神经可塑性的障碍。

To me, this is the only thing that can reconcile the current status of the results.

对我来说，这是唯一可以调和结果当前状态的事情。

And then there's ketamine based therapies.

然后是基于氯胺酮的疗法。

And so we have to also kind of set that on the shelf.

所以我们也必须把它放在架子上。

But let's set that aside on the shelf for now to keep it simple.

但为了简单起见，我们暂时将其放在架子上。

It seems to me that based on the time course over which SSRIs work, the fact that they increase serotonin very quickly, but the relief from depression comes much later, the fact that neuromodulators like serotonin are intimately involved in neuroplasticity, they can, in some cases, gait neuroplasticity, that it all centers back to changing neural circuits.

在我看来，根据 SSRI 发挥作用的时间进程，它们会很快增加血清素，但抑郁症的缓解要晚得多，而且血清素等神经调节剂与神经可塑性密切相关，在某些情况下，它们可以实现步态神经可塑性，这一切都集中在改变神经回路上。

And so what we're really trying to do, whether or not it's transcranial magnetic stimulation or now we can throw ketamine in there, or psilocybin or SSRIs, that treating depression is about rewiring the brain.

因此，我们真正想做的事情，无论是经颅磁刺激，还是现在我们可以在其中加入氯胺酮、裸盖菇素或 SSRI，治疗抑郁症就是重新连接大脑。

It's not about chemical A or B per se, although serotonin seems involved to me.

这与化学物质 A 或 B 本身无关，尽管我似乎与血清素有关。

What I'd love to see is, are more studies about the interaction between neuroplasticity and inflammation.

我希望看到更多关于神经可塑性和炎症之间相互作用的研究。

And are we seeing that kind of work out there?

我们是否看到了这样的工作？

Because these results sort of sit as disparate, somewhat conflicting, but it seems like inflammation is anti-neuroplasticity.

因为这些结果有点不同，有些矛盾，但炎症似乎是抗神经可塑性的。

And broadly speaking here, I realize there are many interleukins, some of which are inflammatory, some of which are anti-inflammatory.

从广义上讲，我意识到有很多白细胞介素，其中一些是炎症性的，其中一些是抗炎性的。

But is that a meaningful hypothesis?

但这是一个有意义的假设吗？

Do you think there's any hope whatsoever to actually cure depression if we sort of start to unify the results in these different camps?

你认为如果我们开始统一这些不同阵营的结果，是否有真正治愈抑郁症的希望？

David Linden: Yeah, I think it's a completely reasonable hypothesis.

大卫·林登：是的，我认为这是一个完全合理的假设。

And I would be broader.

我会更广泛。

And I would say, honestly, the relief of any neuropsychiatric condition ultimately is from neuroplasticity in some form or another.

老实说，我想说，任何神经精神疾病的缓解最终都来自于某种形式的神经可塑性。

And I think it's worthwhile to step back a bit and talk about what neuroplasticity means.

我认为有必要退后一步来谈谈神经可塑性的含义。

To date, there has been a focus on synapses, on the contacts between neurons as the site of neuroplasticity, and that's warranted.

迄今为止，人们一直关注突触、神经元之间的接触作为神经可塑性的部位，这是有道理的。

Synapses are plastic.

突触是塑料的。

They change as a result of experience, as a result of hormone changes, as a result of exercise, as a result of lots of things.

它们的改变是由于经验、荷尔蒙变化、锻炼、很多事情的结果。

But synapses are not the be all and end all of neural function.

但突触并不是神经功能的全部。

So, for example, neurons work by sending electrical signals along their lengths and between neurons and interconverting those with chemical signals.

例如，神经元的工作原理是沿其长度和神经元之间发送电信号，并将这些电信号与化学信号相互转换。

And the processes of generating those electrical signals, the ion channels that are involved, that are embedded in membranes, that are involved in, that are also plastic, they can also change as a result of experience.

产生这些电信号的过程，涉及的离子通道，嵌入膜中的，涉及的，也是塑料的，它们也可以根据经验而改变。

That's what we call intrinsic plasticity, as opposed to synaptic plasticity.

这就是我们所说的内在可塑性，而不是突触可塑性。

In addition, there are literal morphological changes.

此外，还有字面上的形态变化。

So when we talk about the wiring of the brain, sometimes we're talking about literal wiring.

因此，当我们谈论大脑的连接时，有时我们谈论的是字面上的连接。

Like cell A wasn't connected to cell B, and now it is, and that changes.

就像单元格 A 以前没有连接到单元格 B 一样，现在却连接到了，而且情况发生了变化。

And then sometimes, well, actually, cell A was connected to cell B, but cell B wasn't responsive enough.

有时，实际上，细胞 A 连接到细胞 B，但细胞 B 的响应不够。

And now there's a change in cell B.

现在 B 单元格发生了变化。

So now cell a can fire cell B, and that could have been a result of a change in its synapse, making it more receptive to neurotransmitter release from cell A.

因此，现在细胞 A 可以激发细胞 B，这可能是其突触发生变化的结果，使其更容易接受细胞 A 释放的神经递质。

Or it could be something intrinsic in cell A that makes it fire its electrical signal, its spike more easily.

或者它可能是细胞 A 中固有的东西，使其更容易发射电信号和尖峰信号。

I think that one of the key cell types.

我认为这是关键的细胞类型之一。

That's going to be important for your hypothesis linking inflammation to synaptic plasticity is going to be a cell called a microglial cell.

这对于你的假设很重要，即炎症与突触可塑性之间的联系将是一种称为小胶质细胞的细胞。

And microglial cells are non neuronal cells in the brain.

小胶质细胞是大脑中的非神经元细胞。

They're motile, they can crawl around, they have long processes, and they can gobble things up.

它们能动，可以爬行，有很长的过程，而且可以吞掉东西。

They can literally sort of chew away and digest bits of the extracellular scaffolding that surrounds neurons and synapses, and thereby renders them plastic.

它们实际上可以咀嚼和消化神经元和突触周围的细胞外支架，从而使它们具有可塑性。

They can destroy synapses.

它们可以破坏突触。

And there is a lot of indication that certain disease states may involve over exuberant microglia pruning synapses to a degree that they shouldn't.

有很多迹象表明，某些疾病状态可能涉及过度旺盛的小胶质细胞修剪突触，其程度达到了不应有的程度。

And we know that microglia are chock full of cytokine receptors and so are responsive to inflammatory signals.

我们知道小胶质细胞充满了细胞因子受体，因此对炎症信号有反应。

When we're talking about inflammation and we're talking about drugs, it's worthwhile to mention that there are a lot of behavioral things that also can influence the signaling.

当我们谈论炎症和药物时，值得一提的是，有很多行为因素也会影响信号传导。

So we know, and I know you've discussed on your program the incredibly salubrious effects of physical exercise on mental function.

所以我们知道，而且我知道您已经在节目中讨论了体育锻炼对心理功能的令人难以置信的有益影响。

So exercise is about as good an antidepressant as SSRIs are, and the side effects are only good side effects as opposed to the bad side effects of SSRIs.

因此，运动与 SSRI 类药物一样是一种很好的抗抑郁药，而且其副作用只是好的副作用，而不是 SSRIs 的坏副作用。

And again, this isn't working through some airy fairy realm.

再说一遍，这在某些空灵的仙境中是行不通的。

The reason that exercise works to relieve depression, and the reason that exercise works to maintain your cognitive function as you age is because of biological pathways that we are now uncovering, some of which will involve microglial cells and neurons and other types of cells in the brains, some of which will involve not the neurons in the brain at all, but the brain's vasculature.

运动之所以能够缓解抑郁症，以及运动能够随着年龄的增长而维持认知功能，是因为我们现在正在揭示的生物途径，其中一些涉及小胶质细胞和神经元以及大脑中的其他类型的细胞，其中一些根本不涉及大脑中的神经元，而是涉及大脑的脉管系统。

So we know that exercise is very salubrious for keeping blood flowing to the brain.

所以我们知道运动对于保持血液流向大脑非常有益。

And when you're young, you have a superabundance of blood flowing to your brain.

当你年轻的时候，有大量的血液流向你的大脑。

So it doesn't matter if it's reduced transiently, you're fine.

所以暂时减少也没关系，没事的。

But as you get older, your blood vessels become more occluded and less elastic, and you're closer to the trouble spot.

但随着年龄的增长，你的血管会变得更加闭塞、弹性减弱，你就会更接近问题部位。

And if you exercise regularly, you can dilate and make your blood vessels, including those in your brain, more elastic.

如果你经常锻炼，你可以扩张你的血管，包括大脑中的血管，使其更有弹性。

And that is almost certainly protective against both depression and cognitive decline as we age.

随着年龄的增长，这几乎肯定可以防止抑郁和认知能力下降。

Andrew Huberman: I am a fan of exercise, but I'm fortunate that I enjoy running and some forms of resistance training.

Andrew Huberman：我是运动爱好者，但幸运的是我喜欢跑步和某些形式的阻力训练。

So I always assumed that the good side effects were just the positive mood effects until the recent literature that, as you mentioned, improved vasculature, blood flow and reduced inflammation.

所以我一直认为好的副作用只是积极的情绪影响，直到最近的文献，正如你提到的，改善了脉管系统、血流量并减少了炎症。

If not during the exercise, when inflammation actually increases, decreases inflammation.

如果不是在运动过程中，当炎症实际上增加时，炎症就会减少。

I'm delighted to hear you say the word microglia, and my postdoc advisor, the late Ben Barres, would be especially delighted.

我很高兴听到你说小胶质细胞这个词，我的博士后导师已故的本·巴雷斯（Ben Barres）会特别高兴。

People can look up Ben.

人们可以查找本。

I'll provide a link to his biography in the show note captions, because he really championed to the point of.

我将在节目注释标题中提供他的传记链接，因为他确实支持了这一点。

I don't know if champion is even a sufficient word.

我不知道冠军这个词是否足够。

I mean, Ben was beating the drum, saying, we have to pay attention to glia, we have to pay attention to glia.

我的意思是，本在敲鼓说，我们必须关注神经胶质细胞，我们必须关注神经胶质细胞。

For the longest time, glia were relegated to these other journals.

在最长的时间里，神经胶质细胞被降级到这些其他期刊。

They even had their own journals.

他们甚至有自己的日记。

And in the last, what is it, ten years, there's been a kind of explosion of research exploring the role of microglia and other glial cell types.

最后，十年来，探索小胶质细胞和其他神经胶质细胞类型作用的研究激增。

And it's really fantastic to see that actually the most abundant cell type in the brain is the glial cell.

令人惊奇的是，实际上大脑中最丰富的细胞类型是神经胶质细胞。

Are getting the attention they deserve.

正在得到他们应得的关注。

David Linden: It's absolutely true.

大卫·林登：这绝对是真的。

And we scientists like to think that we're very rational creatures and we're not subject to fads, but we totally are, right?

我们科学家喜欢认为我们是非常理性的生物，我们不会受时尚的影响，但我们完全是，对吧？

When I started out in this field in the early '80s, everything was about opioid peptides, and then there was a period where gaseous neurotransmitters like nitric oxide were all the rage.

当我在 80 年代初涉足这一领域时，一切都与阿片肽有关，然后有一段时间，一氧化氮等气态神经递质风靡一时。

And right now, glia are in the spotlight for good reason.

现在，神经胶质细胞成为人们关注的焦点是有充分理由的。

I'm not trying to say that it isn't worthwhile, but there is this phenomenon of things being fattish and people jumping on bandwagons.

我并不是想说这不值得，但确实存在这样一种现象：东西发胖，人们跟风。

And it happens both in terms of the subject we study, but also in terms of the techniques we use.

它既发生在我们研究的主题方面，也发生在我们使用的技术方面。

And right now, the technique that is most fattish involves single cell expression profiling, that is, creating a list of what genes are turned on and how strong they're turned on in single cells and seeing how that changes in different cell types and with experience.

目前，最流行的技术涉及单细胞表达谱分析，即创建一个列表，列出单细胞中哪些基因被开启以及它们的开启强度如何，并根据经验观察不同细胞类型中基因的开启程度如何。

And it's a very valuable technique.

这是一项非常有价值的技术。

But one could argue that it is perhaps a bit overused and that 15 years from now, people will go back and say, gosh, those folks in 2023 were really overdoing it with the single cell profiling.

但有人可能会说，它可能有点被过度使用，15 年后，人们回过头来会说，天哪，2023 年的人们在单细胞分析方面确实做得太过分了。

Andrew Huberman: And if anyone's thinking about getting into the field of neuroscience or another area of biological or other research, I can just tell you that if you're starting your PhD or your postdoc, take a look at whatever fad is happening now, and just know that in five years it will be something different.

Andrew Huberman：如果有人正在考虑进入神经科学领域或生物或其他研究的另一个领域，我可以告诉你，如果你正在开始攻读博士学位或博士后，看看现在正在发生的任何时尚，并且知道五年后将会有所不同。

And it takes you about five years to finish your PhD or postdoc.

完成博士学位或博士后大约需要五年时间。

So pick something different than what's faddish now, and you'll land right on the money.

因此，选择一些与现在流行的不同的东西，你就会赚到钱。

David Linden: There's always a lot to do.

大卫·林登：总是有很多事情要做。

You don't have to do what everyone else is doing.

你不必做其他人正在做的事情。

Andrew Huberman: And indeed, the deletion test becomes relevant here.

Andrew Huberman：事实上，删除测试在这里变得很重要。

The deletion test, as it was described to me by my colleague E.J.

删除测试，正如我的同事 E.J. 向我描述的那样。

Chichilnisky at Stanford, is if you look around and you see one or more groups doing what you want to do very well, just pick something else, your life's going to be a lot more pleasant.

斯坦福大学的奇奇尔尼斯基（Chichilnisky）说，如果你环顾四周，发现一个或多个团队在你想做的事情上做得很好，只要选择其他的事情，你的生活就会愉快得多。

David Linden: Absolutely.

大卫·林登：当然。

I agree with E.J on that entirely.

我完全同意 E.J 的观点。

Andrew Huberman: Let's get back to mind-body.

Andrew Huberman：让我们回到身心。

There are a bunch of different domains of mind-body, as you so aptly pointed out, it's bi directional.

正如您恰当地指出的那样，身心有许多不同的领域，它是双向的。

Mind informs the body, body informs the mind.

心灵通知身体，身体通知心灵。

But we could probably break this down into respiration.

但我们或许可以将其分解为呼吸。

So breathing, conscious patterns of breathing, emphasizing inhales or emphasizing exhales, cyclic hyperventilating, etc. Could also be thought patterns, a little bit harder to break those down.

因此，呼吸、有意识的呼吸模式、强调吸气或强调呼气、周期性过度换气等。也可能是思维模式，要打破这些模式有点困难。

But many, not all, but many forms of meditation involve having a very still body.

但许多（不是全部）但许多形式的冥想都涉及保持身体非常静止。

Not all.

不是全部。

There's walking meditation, etc, but still body focused mind.

有步行冥想等，但仍然以身体为中心。

Kind of not a state that we are in a lot of times, unless we direct that state.

这不是我们很多时候都处于的状态，除非我们指导这种状态。

There are still other mind-body patterns of communication through very still body deep relaxation.

通过非常静止的身体深度放松，还有其他身心交流模式。

Things like Yoga Nidra, Non-Sleep Deep Rest.

比如瑜伽休息术、非睡眠深度休息。

There's hypnosis, there's touch based body mind communication.

有催眠，有基于触摸的身心交流。

If we're going to talk about mind-body also we should refer to as body-mind.

如果我们要谈论身心，我们也应该称之为身心。

How do we dive in and think about this?

我们如何深入思考这个问题？

Because this is involving clearly 1000 different neural pathways, not just the vagus nerve.

因为这显然涉及 1000 条不同的神经通路，而不仅仅是迷走神经。

Typically, people just kind of hang their hat on mind-body must be vagus nerve, and of course it involves the vagus.

通常，人们只是认为身心一定是迷走神经，当然它也涉及迷走神经。

But the vagus is an extensive set of pathways.

但迷走神经是一组广泛的通路。

So how do you like to frame up mind-body?

那么你喜欢如何构建身心呢？

And what's most intriguing to you about mind-body communication, both in terms of the biology and its practical applications?

从生物学及其实际应用角度来看，身心交流最让您感兴趣的是什么？

David Linden: Well, I think just as we talked about how there are two potential pathways in conveying signals from the body to the mind, there are also two potential pathways, at least two potential pathways to conveying signals from the brain to the body.

大卫·林登：嗯，我认为就像我们谈到如何有两种潜在的途径将信号从身体传递到大脑一样，也有两种潜在的途径，至少有两种潜在的途径将信号从大脑传递到身体。

And they are the neural signals that are conveyed by neurons that actually get there.

它们是由实际到达那里的神经元传达的神经信号。

And they are hormones and neurotransmitters and cytokines that are released from the brain.

它们是从大脑释放的激素、神经递质和细胞因子。

And I should mention that hormones are actually produced by neurons, including, for example, some of the hormones that you think about as being produced as sex hormones like estrogen is produced by neurons in your brain, for example.

我应该提到，激素实际上是由神经元产生的，例如，包括一些您认为是由性激素产生的激素，例如雌激素，是由大脑中的神经元产生的。

So let me give an example that I think is a bit out there, but I think is really, really fascinating.

让我举一个我认为有点夸张但又非常非常有趣的例子。

And this comes from the cancer world.

这来自癌症世界。

And so melanoma is a bad cancer.

因此，黑色素瘤是一种严重的癌症。

It kills a lot of people.

它杀死了很多人。

It can spread.

它可以传播。

It's highly metastatic.

它具有高度转移性。

And we know that melanomas often become innervated.

我们知道黑色素瘤常常受到神经支配。

That is to say, they become contacted by neurons and wrapped and receive signals from them.

也就是说，它们与神经元接触并包裹并接收来自神经元的信号。

And we also know that if a melanoma becomes innervated, then the prognosis for that patient is worse.

我们还知道，如果黑色素瘤受到神经支配，那么该患者的预后就会更差。

It's more likely to grow.

它更有可能增长。

It's more likely to spread.

它更有可能传播。

Well, how does that happen?

那么，这是怎么发生的呢？

Well, recently, there have been some reports that show that neurons that innervate the melanoma don't act directly onto the tumor cells.

最近，有一些报告表明，支配黑色素瘤的神经元并不直接作用于肿瘤细胞。

Rather, what they do is they secrete a signaling molecule that has a receptor on immune cells that are patrolling the edges of the melanoma tumor and nibbling away at it.

相反，它们所做的是分泌一种信号分子，该信号分子在免疫细胞上有一个受体，这些免疫细胞在黑色素瘤肿瘤的边缘巡逻并蚕食它。

And when that signaling molecule is released from the neuron, it shuts down or reduces that immune patrolling function.

当信号分子从神经元中释放出来时，它会关闭或减少免疫巡逻功能。

And then, as a consequence, the tumor can grow and spread and butt off more readily.

结果，肿瘤就会生长、扩散并更容易脱落。

Andrew Huberman: So the signal that comes from neurons is sending the ambulances home, so to speak.

安德鲁·胡伯曼：可以这么说，来自神经元的信号正在将救护车送回家。

David Linden: Yeah, exactly.

大卫·林登：是的，完全正确。

And the signal is something called calcitonin gene-related peptide or CGRP.

该信号是一种叫做降钙素基因相关肽或 CGRP 的东西。

Andrew Huberman: I'm familiar with CGRP from the domain of touch and its involvement in, I think like, itch perception?

Andrew Huberman：我从触觉领域熟悉 CGRP，我认为它与瘙痒知觉有关？

David Linden: Pain perception and itch perception, right.

大卫·林登：疼痛感知和瘙痒感知，对。

Andrew Huberman: Interesting.

安德鲁·休伯曼：有趣。

David Linden: Yeah.

大卫·林登：是的。

And so if neurons can affect the progression of cancer through their activity, and these neurons in the periphery are ultimately connected to the brain through a couple of different hops, then is it reasonable to hypothesize that mental processes could affect cancer progression?

因此，如果神经元可以通过其活动影响癌症的进展，并且外围的这些神经元最终通过几个不同的跳跃连接到大脑，那么假设心理过程可以影响癌症的进展是否合理？

So let's say we have a hypothesis, and it's a wild hypothesis, and I want to just emphasize that there is not evidence for this, but let's make the hypothesis that says that through meditative practice, you can slow the progression of certain tumors that tend to get innervated.

假设我们有一个假设，这是一个疯狂的假设，我想强调的是，没有证据证明这一点，但让我们假设通过冥想练习，你可以减缓某些容易受到神经支配的肿瘤的进展。

Well, right now, this is just kind of a wild idea, but I think the important thing, as I've said before, is that this is a wild idea with a biological substrate.

嗯，现在，这只是一个疯狂的想法，但我认为重要的是，正如我之前所说，这是一个具有生物基础的疯狂想法。

It's not like you meditate and magic happens and force fields open and the angels sing, and then your tumor shrinks.

这不像你冥想，魔法发生，力场打开，天使唱歌，然后你的肿瘤缩小。

We are saying that activity in certain areas of the brain is increased by this meditative practice and that this sends signals to this neuron and this neuron that actually go to the tumor and make something happen through this biochemical pathway that we have defined.

我们是说，这种冥想练习会增加大脑某些区域的活动，并且这会向该神经元发送信号，而该神经元实际上会到达肿瘤，并通过我们定义的生化途径使某些事情发生。

And to me, this is speculative, but it's also extraordinarily exciting, right?

对我来说，这是推测性的，但它也非常令人兴奋，对吧？

It opens a kind of investigation of mind to body signaling that has received very little attention up to now.

它开启了一种对身心信号的研究，迄今为止这种研究还很少受到关注。

Andrew Huberman: Incredible.

安德鲁·休伯曼：难以置信。

And I say incredible because while you're giving an example of CGRP and nerve innervation and metastatic tumors, I absolutely love the idea that a phenomenon involving some practice that could be put under the umbrella of mind-body or body-mind becomes something entirely different when we're trying to hang that on the hook of a biological process.

我说令人难以置信，因为当你举出 CGRP、神经神经支配和转移性肿瘤的例子时，我绝对喜欢这样的想法：当我们试图将其挂在生物过程的钩子上时，涉及某些实践的现象可以放在心身或身体心的保护伞下，它会变得完全不同。

It's like something fundamentally changes.

就好像有什么东西发生了根本性的改变。

You know, it's amazing to me, for instance, that early on, psychedelics and breath work, conscious breath work, were lumped together, cost people their jobs at major universities.

你知道，这让我感到惊讶，例如，早期，迷幻药和呼吸工作，有意识的呼吸工作被混为一谈，导致人们在主要大学失去工作。

I won't name the universities because you work at one, I work at another, and there's a third one called Harvard.

我不会说出具体大学的名字，因为你在一所大学工作，我在另一所大学工作，还有第三所大学叫哈佛。

I guess I just named them.

我想我只是命名了它们。

But nowadays, there are laboratories at every single one of those institutions studying deliberate respiration on health, as well as psychedelics and meditation, for that matter, with the goal of understanding what cytokines, what neurotransmitters, etc, change through defined pathways, including vagus, but phrenic nerves and frontal cortex and all the stuff that is considered classic, rigorous neuroscience.

但如今，这些机构中的每一个都设有实验室，研究刻意呼吸对健康的影响，以及致幻剂和冥想，目的是了解哪些细胞因子、哪些神经递质等通过确定的途径发生变化，包括迷走神经、膈神经和额叶皮层以及所有被认为是经典、严格的神经科学的东西。

So, I do think we've entered a new era.

所以，我确实认为我们已经进入了一个新时代。

So it's not costing people their jobs anymore.

因此，人们不再因此失去工作。

It's actually giving people their jobs, and it's federally funded, which itself is also fantastic, in my opinion.

它实际上为人们提供了工作，而且是由联邦政府资助的，在我看来，这本身也很棒。

So we are in a new era.

所以我们正处于一个新时代。

What do you think needs to be done to really nail down the idea that how we think influences our biology, even though it's a total duh, because everyone knows that chronic stress, for instance, can be detrimental, short term stress can actually be beneficial.

你认为需要做什么才能真正确定我们的思维方式影响我们的生物学的想法，尽管这完全是废话，因为每个人都知道，例如，慢性压力可能是有害的，短期压力实际上可能是有益的。

And stress is a mental process that essentially deploys chemicals in the body that then create other issues in the body, that then create shifts in mental processes.

压力是一种心理过程，本质上是在体内部署化学物质，然后在体内产生其他问题，从而导致心理过程发生变化。

It's so obvious when it's spelled out, but it's just remarkable to me how this has just been lumped in the category of woo science.

当它被阐明时，它是如此明显，但对我来说，这是如何被归入求爱科学范畴的，这真是太引人注目了。

And I can't quite figure out what needs to be done in order to convince people that their nervous system includes stuff outside the skull and spinal cord.

我不太清楚需要做什么才能让人们相信他们的神经系统包括颅骨和脊髓之外的东西。

And, of course, it would work this way.

当然，它会以这种方式运作。

David Linden: Well, right.

大卫·林登：嗯，对。

And I think it is the job of biomedical researchers right now to reclaim a lot of this from the realm of nonsense.

我认为现在生物医学研究人员的工作就是从无意义的领域中回收很多这样的内容。

And the problem is, there has been a lot of nonsense, and there's sort of a visceral oral reaction when someone says, oh, yeah, well, you can do breath work, and it'll realign your chakras, and that is what will reduce your anxiety or your gut inflammation.

问题是，有很多废话，当有人说，哦，是的，好吧，你可以做呼吸工作，它会重新调整你的脉轮，这会减少你的焦虑或肠道炎症时，会有一种本能的口头反应。

And I'm tempted to just go, oh, shut up.

我很想，哦，闭嘴。

Andrew Huberman: But what if the chakras are collections of nerve innervation of bodily sphincters?

安德鲁·休伯曼：但是如果脉轮是身体括约肌神经支配的集合呢？

And it could make sense, right?

这可能是有道理的，对吧？

David Linden: It could, but there's got to be some biology.

大卫·林登：可以，但必须有一些生物学因素。

In some cases, these analogies are rooted in something real, and in some cases, they're just made up bullshit.

在某些情况下，这些类比源于真实的事物，而在某些情况下，它们只是胡说八道。

Right?

正确的？

And I think the challenge is to have really rigorous scientific tests of these things, to take it back and to be willing to say, all right, there have been a lot of claims, for example, made about how mental processes can influence the body, and only a subset of those are going to be true.

我认为挑战在于对这些事情进行真正严格的科学测试，收回它并愿意说，好吧，有很多说法，例如，关于心理过程如何影响身体的说法，但其中只有一小部分是正确的。

And of that subset, it is our job to understand how they work, both to rationalize them, but also to optimize them and make them better.

对于这个子集，我们的工作是了解它们是如何工作的，既要使它们合理化，又要优化它们并使它们变得更好。

I mean, there's no question that mental processes affect the body.

我的意思是，毫无疑问，心理过程会影响身体。

I mean, we know, for example, that if we just keep you awake and don't let you sleep long enough, you'll die.

我的意思是，例如，我们知道，如果我们只是让你保持清醒并且不让你睡足够长的时间，你就会死。

And what will you die from?

你会死于什么？

You'll die from sepsis, because the barrier between your gut contents and your peritoneum will break down.

你会死于败血症，因为你的肠道内容物和腹膜之间的屏障会被破坏。

Rightand Well, so how does that happen?

好吧，那么这是怎么发生的呢？

We're just starting to understand.

我们才刚刚开始了解。

There's a really dramatic example, but there are going to be many more subtle examples.

这是一个非常戏剧性的例子，但还会有更多微妙的例子。

So you've mentioned breath work a couple of times, and I think this is really interesting.

你已经多次提到呼吸练习，我认为这真的很有趣。

My colleagues who are interested in respiration tell me that you can record in many different places in the brain, many different places in the neocortex and in other regions, and find a signature of the breathing rhythm, sort of as a background to neural activity.

我对呼吸感兴趣的同事告诉我，你可以在大脑的许多不同位置、新皮质和其他区域的许多不同位置进行记录，并找到呼吸节律的特征，有点作为神经活动的背景。

You can find it in the cerebellum, you can find it in the frontal cortex, you can find it in the habenula, which is implicated in many things, including depression.

你可以在小脑中找到它，你可以在额叶皮层中找到它，你可以在缰核中找到它，这与很多事情有关，包括抑郁症。

You can find it lots of places.

你可以在很多地方找到它。

So the idea that conscious modulation of your breathing could have manifold effects on neural function I think is reasonable, given that kind of observation.

因此，考虑到这种观察，我认为有意识地调节呼吸可能对神经功能产生多种影响的想法是合理的。

Andrew Huberman: Hear, hear!

安德鲁·休伯曼：听着，听着！

Let's talk about you a bit more.

让我们多谈谈你吧。

You've been so gracious in covering this wide array of topics and with such eloquence, and I must say I've been delighting in all of it.

您非常慷慨地以如此雄辩的方式涵盖了如此广泛的话题，我必须说我对这一切感到高兴。

You are in a unique position these days because, if I understand correctly, you've been diagnosed with a fatal illness.

这些天你处于一个独特的位置，因为，如果我没理解错的话，你被诊断出患有致命的疾病。

I suppose we've all been diagnosed with a fatal illness of sorts, because we're all going to die sooner or later.

我想我们都被诊断出患有某种致命的疾病，因为我们迟早都会死。

If you're willing could you tell us the story of how that diagnosis came to be, what your initial reaction was and where things stand now?

如果您愿意，您能告诉我们这个诊断是如何形成的吗？您最初的反应是什么以及现在的情况如何？

And perhaps we can explore some of the, well, let's just say pleasant surprises that have emerged since that initial diagnosis.

也许我们可以探索一些自初步诊断以来出现的令人惊喜的事情。

David Linden: Well, sure, I'd be happy to.

大卫·林登：嗯，当然，我很乐意这样做。

So in the summer of 2020, in the dark days of COVID when things were looking really bad, I developed profound shortness of breath.

因此，在 2020 年夏天，在新冠疫情的黑暗日子里，情况看起来非常糟糕，我出现了严重的呼吸急促。

I couldn't get up a flight of stairs without huffing and puffing.

我无法不气喘吁吁地爬上一段楼梯。

And I thought, oh, well, I've got COVID.

我想，哦，好吧，我感染了新冠病毒。

But I took COVID tests, and they were all negative.

但我做了新冠病毒检测，结果都是阴性。

But I thought, oh, I must have COVID.

但我想，哦，我一定感染了新冠病毒。

I've got the symptoms of COVID I have respiratory issues.

我有新冠肺炎症状我有呼吸系统问题。

I'm feeling weak.

我感觉很虚弱。

It's got to be COVID.

一定是新冠病毒。

And after a while, when this didn't go away, my wife said, look, you got to go into the doctor.

过了一会儿，这种情况还没有消失，我妻子说，听着，你得去看医生。

This is crazy.

这太疯狂了。

You got to find out what's going on.

你必须弄清楚发生了什么事。

And I did.

我做到了。

And they hooked me up to an electrocardiogram, and they said, oh, you've got atrial fibrillation, meaning that your heart is doing two beats every time it should do one.

他们给我做了心电图检查，他们说，哦，你得了心房颤动，这意味着你的心脏每次应该跳动一次却跳动两次。

So I have a very high heart rate.

所以我的心率非常高。

And when the heart beats that fast, it can't work very effectively.

当心脏跳动得那么快时，它就不能非常有效地工作。

There isn't enough time to recharge before the next beat comes.

在下一个节拍到来之前没有足够的时间充电。

Now, it turns out that there is a very straightforward therapy for this.

现在，事实证明有一种非常简单的疗法可以解决这个问题。

Atrial fibrillation comes from electrical signaling in the heart, sort of swirling about in a circle and reactivating part of the heart muscle faster than it should.

心房颤动来自心脏中的电信号，有点绕圈旋转并以比应有的速度更快地重新激活部分心肌。

And so if you thread through a catheter in your groin, up through blood vessels, you can put in a little needle and use that to cauterize and to ablate a tiny little strip of cells in the heart that will produce a barrier that will prevent that aberrant return of electrical activity and will cure atrial fibrillation.

因此，如果你穿过腹股沟的导管，向上穿过血管，你可以放入一根小针，用它烧灼和消融心脏中的一小片细胞，这将产生一个屏障，防止电活动异常返回，并治愈心房颤动。

So I had that process, that ablation surgery, and sure enough, it cured my atrial fibrillation.

所以我做了那个过程，那个消融手术，果然，它治愈了我的心房颤动。

I was feeling terrific.

我感觉棒极了。

And they said, oh, as a follow up, come back a few months later, and we'll do an echocardiogram to see how your heart looks.

他们说，哦，作为跟进，几个月后回来，我们会做超声心动图，看看你的心脏是什么样子。

And they did, and they went, oh, my god.

他们做到了，然后他们就走了，哦，天啊。

There's this huge mass pressing against your heart.

有一个巨大的物体压在你的心脏上。

It's like the size of a Coke can.

它就像可乐罐那么大。

Here's what we think it is.

这就是我们的想法。

We think it's a hatal hernia.

我们认为这是脐疝。

We think your stomach has poked up through the diaphragm muscle, and it's nestling next to your heart.

我们认为你的胃已经从膈肌中伸出来，它就在你的心脏旁边。

So the way we diagnose this, it's kind of humorous.

所以我们诊断这个问题的方式有点幽默。

They say, chug this can of diet Dr. Pepper and then quickly get up on the table, and we'll do the echocardiogram.

他们说，喝下这罐胡椒博士的减肥药，然后迅速站到桌子上，我们就做超声心动图。

And in the echocardiogram, we can see a signature of the popping CO2 bubbles in your soda.

在超声心动图中，我们可以看到苏打水中二氧化碳气泡破裂的特征。

And if we see those in the mass, then we know it's your stomach.

如果我们看到大量的东西，那么我们就知道那是你的胃。

So I did it.

所以我就这么做了。

I chugged it.

我猛地吸了一口。

I got up there.

我站起来。

Oh, no, it's not your stomach.

哦，不，这不是你的胃。

I said, oh, okay.

我说，哦，好吧。

Well, what we think this is is a teratoma.

嗯，我们认为这是畸胎瘤。

And a teratoma is a developmental anomaly that you carry, usually from fetal life, where there's a group of different cells that gets in a place where it shouldn't during development and then grows.

畸胎瘤是一种发育异常，通常来自胎儿期，其中有一组不同的细胞在发育过程中进入了不应该出现的位置，然后生长。

You've probably heard about people who sometimes get like, a tooth that grows hair in their abdomen.

你可能听说过有些人有时会在腹部长出牙齿一样的毛发。

Sometimes women have these around their ovaries, and they're not malignant, they don't spread.

有时女性的卵巢周围有这些肿瘤，它们不是恶性的，也不会扩散。

It's a fairly easy thing, but I had this enormous Coke can pressing on my heart.

这是一件相当容易的事情，但我的心却被这个巨大的可乐罐压着。

It may have, we don't know, have been the source of my atrial fibrillation to start with, but in order to deal with this, I had to have open heart surgery.

我们不知道，它可能是我心房颤动的根源，但为了解决这个问题，我不得不进行心脏直视手术。

So I had the surgery, and it was a big, hairy deal.

所以我做了手术，这是一件大而棘手的事情。

I was told it would last about 5 hours.

有人告诉我它将持续大约5个小时。

It turns out it lasted two days.

事实证明，它持续了两天。

Andrew Huberman: Wow.

安德鲁·休伯曼：哇。

David Linden: They had me on the heart lung bypass machine longer than you're supposed to because you're very likely to throw a clot and get a stroke.

大卫·林登：他们让我在心肺旁路机上呆的时间比你预期的要长，因为你很可能会出现血栓并中风。

Fortunately, that didn't happen.

幸运的是，这种情况没有发生。

I had very skilled surgeons at Johns Hopkins.

我在约翰霍普金斯大学有非常熟练的外科医生。

It was bleeding so much that they couldn't close the chest, so they had to do all the surgery and then just leave me anesthetized with my chest open until the bleeding stopped.

出血太多，他们无法关闭胸部，所以他们必须完成所有手术，然后让我保持麻醉状态，打开胸部，直到出血停止。

So the surgery was a bear.

所以手术很艰难。

And then I'm waiting to get the pathology report back on the tissue they removed, and it came back and it was bad news.

然后我正在等待他们取出的组织的病理报告，结果回来了，这是个坏消息。

Sorry.

对不起。

It's not a teratoma.

这不是畸胎瘤。

It's not benign.

这不是良性的。

It is a kind of cancer called synovial sarcoma.

这是一种称为滑膜肉瘤的癌症。

And synovial sarcoma is a moderately rare cancer, and it usually affects the synovium, which is the lining of the joints or some other places.

滑膜肉瘤是一种相当罕见的癌症，它通常会影响滑膜，也就是关节的内层或其他一些地方。

It's pretty rare to have it happen in the heart.

这种事发生在心里是非常罕见的。

There are a few examples.

有几个例子。

If you look in the biomedical literature for common cancers like testicular cancer or breast cancer, there are huge tables of statistics from millions of patients on what's been tried and what works and what the prognosis is.

如果你查阅睾丸癌或乳腺癌等常见癌症的生物医学文献，就会发现有来自数百万患者的大量统计数据表，介绍了已尝试过的方法、有效的方法以及预后情况。

For synovial sarcoma of the heart, they're only individual case reports.

对于心脏滑膜肉瘤，它们只是个别病例报告。

Oh, there's a guy in Kenya.

哦，有一个人在肯尼亚。

And he got it.

他明白了。

And this is what happened.

这就是发生的事情。

There's a woman in Minnesota, and this is what happened with her, right?

明尼苏达州有一个女人，这就是她身上发生的事情，对吗？

There are no statistics because it's that rare.

没有统计数据，因为这种情况非常罕见。

And the oncologist said, well, I think you've got six to 18 months to live.

肿瘤科医生说，好吧，我想你还有 6 到 18 个月的生命。

Now this was about now 27 months ago.

这大约是 27 个月前的事了。

So I've fortunately exceeded that lifespan estimate.

所以幸运的是我的寿命超出了预期。

And I think we got to be clear also that being oncologist has got to be a terrible job for many reasons.

我认为我们还必须清楚，由于多种原因，肿瘤学家必定是一项糟糕的工作。

But one of them is that you got to give a lifespan estimate, even if you really don't have the data to do it in a very informed.

但其中之一是你必须给出寿命估计，即使你确实没有非常明智的数据来做到这一点。

You can't just say, I won't do it.

你不能只说，我不会做。

You got to do it.

你必须这么做。

People expect it.

人们期待它。

So I'm not saying, like, oh, the oncologist was incompetent because I've outlived my estimate.

所以我并不是说，哦，肿瘤科医生无能，因为我的寿命已经超过了我的估计。

He was trying to do something based on very little information, made his best guess.

他试图根据很少的信息做一些事情，做出他最好的猜测。

So I got this information, and I was furious.

所以我得到这个信息，我很愤怒。

I was so angry.

我很生气。

Heart cancer?

心脏病？

Who the hell gets heart cancer?

谁到底会得心脏病？

Is that even a thing?

这还算一件事吗？

Have you ever heard of somebody with heart cancer?

您听说过有人患有心脏病吗？

Andrew Huberman: Not until now.

安德鲁·休伯曼：直到现在还没有。

David Linden: No. Heart cancer?

大卫·林登：没有。心脏病？

What the f.

什么f。

I've got heart cancer.

我得了心脏病。

This is crazy time.

这是疯狂的时刻。

I was 59 years old.

我当时59岁。

I got a lot to do.

我有很多事要做。

I can't have heart cancer.

我不可能得心脏病。

And what was, I think, transformative for me is that at the same time that I was feeling white hot, angry with the universe, I was also feeling a deep sense of gratitude for what I've had.

我认为，对我来说，改变的是，在我感到白热化、对宇宙感到愤怒的同时，我也对我所拥有的一切感到深深的感激。

I've had a terrific life.

我过着美好的生活。

I'm not that young.

我没那么年轻了。

I've had a lot of it, and I had great parents, wonderful friends growing up.

我经历了很多，我有很棒的父母，成长过程中很棒的朋友。

I've had a good career.

我的职业生涯很好。

It's been a fairly easy run of it.

这是一个相当容易的运行。

And I think the ability to have a job where you follow your own curiosity every day, there's nothing like that.

我认为每天都能追随自己好奇心的工作是独一无二的。

So few people in the world get to live that way.

世界上很少有人能过这样的生活。

I feel incredibly grateful, and I feel incredibly grateful for my family.

我感到无比感激，也对我的家人感到无比感激。

And I have a wonderful wife named Dina, and she's just the best.

我有一个很棒的妻子，名叫迪娜，她是最好的。

How do I deserve this?

我怎么配得上这个？

I don't deserve her, you know honestly.

我配不上她，你老实说。

In neuroscience, we often think, oh, well, you have a state, you have a set point.

在神经科学中，我们经常想，哦，好吧，你有一个状态，你有一个设定点。

Are you anxious, or are you relaxed?

你是焦虑，还是放松？

Are you fleeing, or are you approaching?

你是在逃跑，还是在逼近？

It's like a single axis.

它就像一个单轴。

Well, but it isn't.

嗯，但事实并非如此。

And I think most people understand that.

我想大多数人都明白这一点。

But dumb me, I didn't, until that moment, really understand that I could feel profoundly grateful and profoundly angry in the very same moment.

但愚蠢的我，直到那一刻，我才真正明白我可以在同一时刻感到深深的感激和深深的愤怒。

And having cancer and getting the kind of treatments, the chemo, the radiation, it's famously deeply unpleasant.

患有癌症并接受各种治疗、化疗、放疗，这是众所周知的非常不愉快的事情。

And I had all that.

我拥有这一切。

And it was just as unpleasant as anyone's cancer story that you've heard.

这就像你听过的任何人的癌症故事一样令人不愉快。

The radiation burned my esophagus.

辐射烧伤了我的食道。

I couldn't eat for weeks.

我好几个星期都吃不下东西了。

It was months it was painful to swallow.

几个月来吞咽都很痛苦。

Bad stuff.

坏东西。

Lots of people have had to have bad stuff like this.

很多人都不得不经历过这样的坏事。

What I realize it's a deeply unempowering situation to be a medical patient, particularly when there's something serious.

我意识到，作为一名病人，这是一种非常无能为力的情况，尤其是当出现严重的情况时。

You have a limited sense of agency.

你的代理意识有限。

Things are being done to you.

事情正在对你做。

Drugs go in you that make you feel really bad, and there isn't that much to do.

毒品进入你体内，让你感觉非常糟糕，而且没有什么可做的。

And I realized that for me, the sense of agency came from being curious, from being a total nerd about things.

我意识到，对我来说，代理感来自于好奇，来自于对事物的彻底迷恋。

And part of what it made me curious about was my own mental processes as they related to my cancer and my cancer diagnosis.

让我好奇的部分原因是我自己的心理过程，因为它们与我的癌症和癌症诊断有关。

So, for example, I'm getting the chemo.

例如，我正在接受化疗。

And I should just say, as background, I'm fortunate I don't have a tendency for depression.

我应该说，作为背景，我很幸运我没有抑郁倾向。

I'm a pretty upbeat guy.

我是一个非常乐观的人。

I don't take any credit for that.

我对此不承担任何功劳。

I think I was just born lucky and raised lucky.

我想我生来就是幸运的，成长起来也是幸运的。

Right?

正确的？

But day after day of feeling bad in your body from chemo, boy, it's hard to be positive.

但是日复一日，你的身体因化疗而感觉不好，男孩，很难保持积极的态度。

It really is.

确实如此。

I could not overcome it.

我无法克服它。

My mood got really, really low, and I could tell myself, this is going to be over.

我的心情变得非常非常低落，我可以告诉自己，这一切都会结束了。

It's not going to go on forever.

它不会永远持续下去。

You won't feel this way forever.

你不会永远有这种感觉。

And you would think that as a rational person, I could talk myself out of that mood, but I couldn't, probably because my brain was awash in Interleukin-6 and I couldn't overcome it.

你可能会认为，作为一个理性的人，我可以说服自己摆脱这种情绪，但我做不到，可能是因为我的大脑充满了白细胞介素 6，而我无法克服它。

I felt really low.

我的心情真的很低落。

But at the same time, I was sort of out of remove being a nerd about going like, I bet these cytokines are messing me up right now.

但与此同时，我有点不想成为一个书呆子，我敢打赌这些细胞因子现在把我搞乱了。

I bet that's what's going on.

我敢打赌这就是正在发生的事情。

And that gave me some sense of agency in a time where otherwise I really wouldn't have it.

这给了我一些代理感，否则我真的不会有这种感觉。

Another thing it really brought home to me is this issue that we were discussing earlier about how malleable perception is and perception of time in particular.

它真正让我认识到的另一件事是我们之前讨论的关于感知的可塑性，特别是对时间的感知的问题。

If someone had said to me when I was healthy before I was diagnosed, you're going to die in five years, I would have gone, oh, no, I'm 59 years old.

如果有人在我被确诊之前对我说，你会在五年内死去，我会说，哦，不，我已经 59 岁了。

I should get way more than five years.

我应该还有五年多的时间。

I got a lot of things to do, professional things, personal things, family things.

我有很多事情要做，专业的事情，个人的事情，家庭的事情。

I got a lot of things to do.

我有很多事情要做。

No, that wouldn't be right.

不，那是不对的。

I'd be very upset.

我会很不高兴。

But if you told me after my diagnosis of six to 18 months oh, you get five years?

但如果你在我确诊后 6 到 18 个月告诉我哦，你会得到 5 年吗？

I'd be like, five years?

我想，五年？

Yeah.

是的。

That's pretty good.

那很好。

I can do a lot in five years.

五年内我可以做很多事情。

I can finish up in the lab and I can do some good work, and I can spend time with my family and travel and savor life's pleasures and do all kinds of things.

我可以在实验室完成工作，我可以做一些好的工作，我可以花时间与家人一起旅行，享受生活的乐趣，做各种各样的事情。

Five years, great.

五年了，真好。

And of course, it's the same five years, right.

当然，五年都是一样的，对吧。

The only thing that's different is the context.

唯一不同的是上下文。

But I think the thing that really I realized the most is that I really couldn't and still can't engage with the idea of myself being gone.

但我认为我真正意识到最多的事情是我真的不能而且仍然不能接受自己离开的想法。

So, yeah, I can do practical things.

所以，是的，我可以做一些实际的事情。

I can update my will.

我可以更新我的遗嘱。

I can write letters for my people in my lab.

我可以为实验室里的人写信。

So if I kick off, they've got that to take to their next job.

因此，如果我开始工作，他们就会将其带到下一份工作中。

I can do all these nuts and bolts things.

我可以做所有这些具体的事情。

But in terms of genuinely engaging with my own demise, I really find that as much as I try, I really can't do that.

但就真正面对自己的死亡而言，我真的发现，尽管我很努力，但我真的做不到。

And at first, I thought, well, that's just your own lack of imagination, Linden.

起初，我想，好吧，这只是你缺乏想象力，林登。

It's just know you're not very good at this.

只是知道你不太擅长这个。

But the more I thought about it, I thought, actually, no, this is a human thing.

但我越想越觉得，其实，不，这是人之常情。

This is a fundamental human thing.

这是人类的基本事情。

And one of the things, when I look back on the 40 plus years I've been doing neuroscience, that's different, is that when I was first trained, the brain was really described as a reactive structure.

当我回顾我从事神经科学的 40 多年时，有一点不同的是，当我第一次接受训练时，大脑实际上被描述为一个反应性结构。

Something happens in the world.

世界上发生了一些事情。

It comes to your sense organs, your eyes, your ears.

它涉及你的感觉器官，你的眼睛，你的耳朵。

It goes into your brain it triggers some things.

它进入你的大脑并触发一些事情。

You think.

您认为。

You make decisions, and then you make an action.

你做出决定，然后采取行动。

It goes out to your muscles, and that's the loop, and that's what the brain does.

它传到你的肌肉，这就是循环，这就是大脑的作用。

And what we have known in more recent years is that actually, when the brain is waiting for something to happen, it's not just idling and spacing out that the brain is, at every moment, subconsciously trying to predict the near future.

近年来我们所知道的是，实际上，当大脑在等待某件事发生时，它不仅仅是闲置和发呆，大脑每时每刻都在下意识地试图预测不久的将来。

Predicting the near future is predicated on the idea that there will be a near future.

预测不久的将来是基于“不久的将来”的想法。

That is to say that you won't be dead and gone, right?

也就是说，你不会死了，消失了，对吗？

That there'll be a future for you.

以为你会有未来。

And so I think that my ability, which I think is actually a human, I mean, not my ability, my failure, which I think is actually a human failure, to truly engage with my own demise, is a feature.

所以我认为我的能力，我认为实际上是一个人，我的意思是，不是我的能力，我的失败，我认为实际上是人类的失败，真正参与到我自己的灭亡，是一个特征。

It is a side effect of the fact that the brain is always trying to predict the future.

这是大脑总是试图预测未来这一事实的副作用。

And so that was interesting to me just as a way that my illness was revealing something about the brain.

所以这对我来说很有趣，就像我的疾病揭示了大脑的某些东西一样。

But it also made me think a lot about the world's religions, right?

但这也让我思考了很多关于世界宗教的问题，对吗？

Religion is everywhere in the world.

宗教在世界各地无处不在。

If you ask anthropologists, is there any society that doesn't have religious ideas?

如果你问人类学家，哪个社会没有宗教观念？

They'll say no. They say they don't always have the word religion.

他们会说不。他们说他们并不总是有宗教这个词。

They might just say, well, yeah, in this place, everybody knows that the world's on the back of a turtle and that this and this happened.

他们可能只是说，嗯，是的，在这个地方，每个人都知道世界位于乌龟背上，并且发生过这样那样的事情。

There are these rules.

有这些规则。

They may not call it religion, but every place in the world has religion.

他们可能不称其为宗教，但世界上每个地方都有宗教。

Not everyone is religious, but it is a cross cultural universal.

并非每个人都有宗教信仰，但它是跨文化的普遍现象。

And most religions, not absolutely every single one, but almost every single one, has stories of afterlife or reincarnation, in which your consciousness endures.

大多数宗教，不是绝对每一种，而是几乎每一种，都有来世或转世的故事，你的意识在其中持续存在。

Well, why would that be?

嗯，为什么会这样呢？

In many religions, they've got a deal, right?

在许多宗教中，他们都有一个协议，对吧？

Follow these rules in life, and then you'll be rewarded in the afterlife.

在生活中遵循这些规则，然后你会在来世得到回报。

And that's a very general idea.

这是一个非常普遍的想法。

Andrew Huberman: Or punished in the afterlife.

Andrew Huberman：或者在来世受到惩罚。

David Linden: Or punished in the afterlife.

大卫·林登：或者在来世受到惩罚。

And in some religions, you meld with the divine.

在某些宗教中，你与神融合。

In other religions, you're reincarnated as this or that.

在其他宗教中，你会以这样或那样的方式转世。

Heaven or hell.

天堂还是地狱。

Right?

正确的？

There's variants, but they share that your consciousness endures.

虽然有多种变体，但它们的共同点是你的意识是持久的。

And so why is this so popular all over the world?

那么为什么它在全世界如此受欢迎呢？

Well, I would hypothesize that it is a side effect of the fact that the brain can't help but always trying to predict the future.

好吧，我假设这是大脑忍不住总是试图预测未来这一事实的副作用。

When we can't imagine the world without us in it, then we are forced to concoct stories of the afterlife.

当我们无法想象没有我们的世界时，我们就被迫编造来世的故事。

Andrew Huberman: Fascinating.

安德鲁·休伯曼：令人着迷。

And makes me want to ask about this feature of time perception.

这让我想问一下时间感知的这个特征。

My undergraduate, graduate, and postdoc advisors all sadly died earlier.

我的本科生、研究生和博士后导师都不幸去世了。

Early, really, by pretty much any standard.

确实，无论以什么标准来看，都早得很。

And I was fortunate enough to be in communication with the last two as they were going through that process.

我很幸运能够在最后两个人经历这个过程时与他们进行沟通。

Both of them described a heightened sense of gratitude, especially for things that previously they had not paid attention to.

他们两人都表达了高度的感激之情，尤其是对他们以前没有注意到的事情。

So we call this noticing the little things.

所以我们称之为“注意小事”。

But that makes me conclude that something about the knowledge of one's impending death, however far off that might be, shifts our attention, at least temporarily, leads to this sense of slowing down a bit.

但这让我得出结论，关于一个人即将死亡的知识，无论距离有多远，都会转移我们的注意力，至少暂时转移，导致这种放慢脚步的感觉。

Because in order to shift our attention to, quote, unquote, the little things or things that we previously overlooked, there's this sense of slowing down.

因为为了将我们的注意力转移到引用或取消引用我们之前忽略的小事情或事情上，就会有一种放慢速度的感觉。

And we know from basic videography photography that slowing down means an increase in frame rate shooting at strobe frame rates gives you the perception of strobe shooting at very high frame rates, allows you to see things in very slow motion.

我们从基本的视频摄影中知道，放慢速度意味着帧速率的增加，以频闪帧速率拍摄会给您以非常高的帧速率进行频闪拍摄的感觉，让您以非常慢的动作看到事物。

You're noticing subtle variations that normally you overlook.

您会注意到通常被您忽略的细微变化。

I'm not trying to be overly reductionist about this process of enhanced gratitude that you describe and how it was alongside intense anger.

我并不想对你所描述的这种增强感激之情的过程以及它如何伴随着强烈的愤怒进行过度简化。

But have you noticed a shift in your perception of time because you were given initially this, okay, X number of months, and then now with the, you're still here, fortunately, and with this kind of open ended.

但是你有没有注意到你对时间的看法发生了变化，因为你最初被给予了这个，好吧，X个月，然后现在，幸运的是，你仍然在这里，并且有这种开放式的结局。

Well, it wasn't the prediction that was given to you by your oncologist, but it's unclear how long you're going to be here.

嗯，这不是你的肿瘤科医生给你的预测，但目前还不清楚你会在这里呆多久。

Which is how most of us exist.

这就是我们大多数人的存在方式。

You have the sense that it's sooner rather than later, but you don't really know.

你有一种感觉，这是宜早不宜迟的，但你并不真正知道。

So I'm curious as to how the idea that, okay, you have twelve months more to live versus more than twelve months, but not infinite.

所以我很好奇，好吧，你还有十二个月的寿命，而不是十二个月以上，但不是无限的。

But of course I know that I hopefully have more than twelve months, but it's not infinite.

但我当然知道我希望有超过十二个月的时间，但它不是无限的。

So this idea of the finish line, the cliff, leaving aside whatever might happen afterwards, I don't know, haven't been there.

所以，不管之后会发生什么，关于终点线、悬崖的想法，我不知道，还没有出现过。

It changes what we notice by way of changing our perception of time.

它通过改变我们对时间的感知来改变我们所注意到的事物。

This is a profound tuning of our perception.

这是对我们感知的深刻调整。

What are your thoughts on that?

您对此有何看法？

And do you notice each sip of coffee?

你注意到每一口咖啡吗？

You probably don't notice each step across the kitchen floor in the morning.

早上您可能不会注意到厨房地板上的每一步。

You're probably paying attention to your lovely wife and kids and things that day.

那天你可能会关注你可爱的妻子和孩子以及其他事情。

But presumably it's dynamic.

但大概它是动态的。

But what is your perception of time like now?

但你现在对时间的看法是怎样的呢？

With the understanding that, yes, you made it through past the gate that was predicted, but what lies ahead is uncertain.

是的，你已经跨过了预测的大门，但前面的事情是不确定的。

David Linden: Yeah, so that's really interesting.

大卫·林登：是的，这真的很有趣。

And I would say definitely my perception of time is slower and it seems like an age since I was diagnosed.

我肯定会说，我对时间的感知变慢了，看起来就像是我被诊断出的年龄一样。

But I think part of that is because it's been action packed.

但我认为部分原因是它充满了动作。

In other words, since I was diagnosed, so many emotionally salient things, nontrivial things have happened.

换句话说，自从我被诊断出来以来，发生了很多情感上显着的事情，不平凡的事情。

So many intense discussions with my wife and my friends and the people in my lab.

与我的妻子、我的朋友以及我实验室的人们进行了如此多的激烈讨论。

My wife and I have taken a lot more vacations than we normally do.

我和我妻子的假期比平常多得多。

So we're running all over the world and there's a certain sense of packing it in that I think influences time perception.

所以我们在世界各地跑步，并且有一定的包装感，我认为这会影响时间感知。

But I would say actually, for me personally, the gratitude isn't about the little things.

但我想说的是，实际上，就我个人而言，感激之情并不在于小事。

The gratitude is about the very biggest things.

感恩是关于最重要的事情。

The gratitude is gratitude for being a sentient being and having that blessing.

感恩是感恩自己是一个有情众生并拥有这样的加持。

The gratitude is for being able to have a life where I can follow my own ideas and creativity.

感谢能够拥有一种可以遵循自己的想法和创造力的生活。

And my gratitude is for, I choke up, David Linden : the profound love that I've felt from my wife and my children.

我哽咽地感谢大卫·林登：我从我的妻子和孩子那里感受到了深切的爱。

It's not the little stuff, it's the big stuff that I think about.

我所考虑的不是小事，而是大事。

When I think about gratitude, it's not noticing the sip of tea.

当我想到感恩时，我并没有注意到那一口茶。

It's the big issues and for me, I want to delay my death as much as possible, of course, but when I think about it, the part that makes me upset is leaving people behind.

这是个大问题，对我来说，当然，我想尽可能推迟我的死亡，但当我想到这一点时，让我感到不安的部分是把人们抛在后面。

It's not for myself.

这不是为了我自己。

I've had a great life.

我过着美好的生活。

I've had a lot of it.

我已经经历过很多了。

I'm 61.

我61岁了。

I'd like to go longer, but that's a pretty good run.

我想跑得更远，但这是一次很好的跑步。

I've gotten to do lots of things in those 61 years and have wonderful, loving, interconnected experiences.

在这 61 年里，我做了很多事情，也拥有了美好、充满爱、相互关联的经历。

And so the negative part is about what I leave behind.

所以消极的部分是关于我留下的东西。

Andrew Huberman: Certainly what you've left behind is enormous and has been the consequence of actions long before your diagnosis, which I think is a clear lesson to everyone.

安德鲁·休伯曼：当然，你留下的东西是巨大的，并且是你在诊断之前很久就采取的行动的结果，我认为这对每个人来说都是一个明确的教训。

I can't speak for you, but don't wait for the diagnosis.

我不能代表你说话，但不要等待诊断结果。

You've mentioned the sense of agency that you felt by being able to pay attention to and explore your experience of, let's call it what it is, impending death.

你提到了通过关注和探索即将到来的死亡的体验而感受到的代理感，我们就这么称呼它吧。

And at the same time, as you mentioned, you've amplified and accelerated the number of things that you've put into the world recently writing incredible articles about your experience of life and death.

与此同时，正如你所提到的，你最近放大并加速了你向世界投入的事物的数量，写了关于你的生与死经历的令人难以置信的文章。

And we will of course, link to those so people can read them.

当然，我们会链接到这些内容，以便人们可以阅读它们。

I've read them all, and they are profound.

我都读过，而且都很深刻。

And they don't just feel important, they clearly are important.

他们不仅感觉自己很重要，而且显然很重要。

David Linden: Thank you.

大卫·林登：谢谢。

Andrew Huberman: So very few people have your insight into the nervous system at the mechanistic level, but also at this more holistic level that you've clearly displayed to us here and in your research and in your book writing and public speaking.

安德鲁·胡伯曼：所以很少有人能像你一样在机械层面上了解神经系统，而且在更全面的层面上也能了解你在这里、你的研究、你的书写作和公开演讲中向我们清楚展示的情况。

I think it's a risky thing to ask somebody for advice, but I can't help myself because I think it's a real opportunity, if you had advice to give to any and all of us based on the whole experience.

我认为向别人寻求建议是一件冒险的事情，但我情不自禁，因为我认为这是一个真正的机会，如果你能根据整个经验向我们所有人提供建议。

David Linden: Yeah.

大卫·林登：是的。

Andrew Huberman: All of it from go, as I say.

Andrew Huberman：正如我所说，所有这些都来自 go。

If you're willing and feel free to pass.

如果你愿意并且可以随意通过。

But if you're willing, what is your advice?

但如果你愿意，你有什么建议？

David Linden: Well, I would say the advice that is really universal is what everybody already knows and is a bit trite, but I'll say it anyway, and that is appreciate what you got while you got it.

大卫·林登：嗯，我想说，真正普遍的建议是每个人都已经知道的，而且有点陈词滥调，但无论如何我都会说，那就是感激你所得到的。

And this isn't any big secret and everyone knows it.

这不是什么大秘密，每个人都知道。

I would say for a subset of people, the way of the nerd is very empowering.

我想说，对于一部分人来说，书呆子的方式是非常有力量的。

I don't think that's the case for everyone.

我不认为每个人都是这样。

I think for a subset of people who are deeply curious as their nature, turning that curiosity to your own mortality and your own medical situation can be empowering and useful.

我认为，对于一部分天生好奇的人来说，将这种好奇心转向你自己的死亡和你自己的医疗状况可能是有力量和有用的。

But I don't think that should be broad advice.

但我认为这不应该是广泛的建议。

I think that's only for a fraction of people.

我想这只是针对一小部分人。

It's probably the worst thing they could do.

这可能是他们能做的最糟糕的事情了。

And there's nothing wrong with that.

这并没有什么问题。

Everybody's different, right?

每个人都不一样，对吧？

Not everyone should adopt the way of the nerd, but for a fraction of people, it's a really good thing to do.

不是每个人都应该采用书呆子的方式，但对于一小部分人来说，这确实是一件好事。

Andrew Huberman: This is normally the portion of a conversation with a guest where I list off the many, many things they've done and how grateful I am.

安德鲁·休伯曼：这通常是与客人谈话的一部分，我会列出他们所做的很多很多事情以及我的感激之情。

And all of that is absolutely true in the case of you being here today and the work you've done.

对于您今天在这里以及您所做的工作来说，所有这些都是绝对正确的。

But I think it's self evident how much you've not just accomplished, but how much knowledge you've put into the world.

但我认为，你不仅取得了多少成就，而且还向世界投入了多少知识，这是不言而喻的。

And not just scientific knowledge, but knowledge about the human experience of others and of yourself.

不仅仅是科学知识，还有关于他人和你自己的人类经验的知识。

And so I just want to extend a giant thank you on behalf of the listeners and viewers and myself.

因此，我只想代表听众、观众和我本人致以深深的谢意。

Thank you for coming here today.

谢谢你今天来到这里。

Thank you for doing what you do, and so great to still have you here and to have this conversation.

感谢您所做的事情，很高兴您仍然在这里并进行这次对话。

And I hope it goes longer.

我希望它能持续更长的时间。

And no matter when it ends, you've done an enormous service to humanity.

无论它什么时候结束，你都为人类做出了巨大的服务。

David Linden: Well, thank you.

大卫·林登：好的，谢谢。

That's very kind.

这真是太好了。

It's been a pure pleasure to have this discussion with you.

很高兴与您进行这次讨论。

Andrew Huberman: Thanks, David.

安德鲁·胡伯曼：谢谢，大卫。

Thank you for joining me today for this discussion with Dr. David Linden.

感谢您今天加入我与大卫·林登博士的讨论。

If you're learning from and or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel.

如果您正在学习或喜欢此播客，请订阅我们的 YouTube 频道。

That's a terrific, zero-cost way to support us.

这是支持我们的绝佳且零成本的方式。

In addition, please subscribe to the podcast on Spotify and Apple.

此外，请订阅 Spotify 和 Apple 上的播客。

And on both Spotify and Apple.

Spotify 和 Apple 上都有。

You can leave us up to a five star review.

您可以给我们留下五星级的评价。

If you have questions for me or comments about the podcast or guests that you'd like me to consider hosting on the Huberman Lab Podcast, please put those in the comments section on YouTube.

如果您对我有疑问或对您希望我考虑在 Huberman 实验室播客上主持的播客或嘉宾有意见，请将这些意见放入 YouTube 的评论部分。

I do read all the comments.

我确实阅读了所有评论。

Please also check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode.

另请查看今天节目开头和整个节目中提到的赞助商。

That's the best way to support this podcast.

这是支持这个播客的最佳方式。

Not on today's podcast, but on many previous episodes of the Huberman Lab Podcast, we discuss supplements.

不是在今天的播客中，而是在 Huberman 实验室播客的许多先前剧集中，我们讨论了补充剂。

While supplements aren't necessary for everybody, many people derive tremendous benefit from them for things like improving sleep hormone support and focus.

虽然补充剂并不是每个人都需要的，但许多人从它们中获得了巨大的好处，例如改善睡眠激素支持和注意力。

The Huberman Lab Podcast has partnered with Momentous supplements.

Huberman 实验室播客与 Momentous 补充剂合作。

If you'd like to access the supplements discussed on the Huberman Lab Podcast, you can go to livemomentous, spelled O-U-S.

如果您想访问 Huberman 实验室播客上讨论的补充内容，您可以访问 livemomentous，拼写为 O-U-S。

So it's livemomentous.com/huberman, and you can also receive 20% off.

所以它是 livemomentous.com/huberman，您还可以获得 20% 的折扣。

Again, that's livemomentous.com/huberman, spelled O-U-S.

同样，它是 livemomentous.com/huberman，拼写为 O-U-S。

If you haven't already subscribed to our Neural Network Newsletter, our Neural Network Newsletter is a completely zero-cost monthly newsletter that includes summaries of podcast episodes as well as protocols, that is, short PDFs describing, for instance, tools to improve sleep, tools to improve neuroplasticity.

如果您还没有订阅我们的神经网络时事通讯，我们的神经网络时事通讯是完全零成本的月度时事通讯，其中包括播客剧集和协议的摘要，即描述改善睡眠的工具、改善神经可塑性的工具等的简短 PDF。

We talk about deliberate cold exposure, fitness, various aspects of mental health, again, all completely zero-cost.

我们再次谈论刻意的寒冷暴露、健身、心理健康的各个方面，所有这些都是完全零成本的。

And to sign up, you simply go to hubermanlab.com, go over to the menu in the corner, scroll down to newsletter, and provide your email.

要注册，您只需访问 hubermanlab.com，转到角落的菜单，向下滚动到时事通讯，然后提供您的电子邮件。

We do not share your email with anybody.

我们不会与任何人分享您的电子邮件。

If you're not already following me on social media, I am hubermanlab on all platforms.

如果您还没有在社交媒体上关注我，我是所有平台上的 hubermanlab。

So that's Instagram, Twitter, Threads, LinkedIn, and Facebook.

这就是 Instagram、Twitter、Threads、LinkedIn 和 Facebook。

And at all of those places, I talk about science and science related tools, some of which overlaps with the content of the Huberman Lab Podcast, but much of which is distinct from the content of the Huberman Lab Podcast.

在所有这些地方，我谈论科学和科学相关工具，其中一些与胡伯曼实验室播客的内容重叠，但其中大部分与胡伯曼实验室播客的内容不同。

Again, it's hubermanlab on all social media platforms.

再说一遍，所有社交媒体平台上都是 hubermanlab。

Thank you once again for joining me for my discussion with Dr. David Linden.

再次感谢您参加我与大卫·林登博士的讨论。

And last but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.

最后但并非最不重要的一点是，感谢您对科学的兴趣。