Dr. David Buss: How Humans Select & Keep Romantic Partners in Short & Long Term
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.
欢迎来到休伯曼实验室播客，我们在这里讨论科学和基于科学的日常生活工具。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm Andrew Huberman and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.
我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。
My guest today is Dr. David Buss.
今天我的嘉宾是大卫·巴斯博士。
Dr. Buss is a professor of psychology at the University of Texas, Austin, and he is one of the founding members and luminaries in the field of evolutionary psychology.
巴斯博士是德克萨斯大学奥斯汀分校的心理学教授，是进化心理学领域的创始成员和杰出人物之一。
Dr. Buss's laboratory is responsible for understanding the strategies that humans use to select mates in the short and long term, and he is an expert in sex differences in mating strategy.
巴斯博士的实验室负责了解人类在短期和长期选择配偶的策略，他是研究交配策略性别差异的专家。
His laboratory has explored, for instance, why women cheat on their spouses or their long-term partners, as well as why men tend to cheat on their spouses and long-term partners.
例如，他的实验室探索了为什么女性会欺骗她们的配偶或长期伴侣，以及为什么男人倾向于欺骗她们的配偶和长期伴侣。
He's also explored a number of things related to the courtship dance that we call dating and securing a mate, including the use of deception related to proclamations of love or promises of finances or sexual activity.
他还探索了许多与求爱舞蹈相关的事情，我们称之为约会和确保伴侣，包括使用与爱情宣言或财务或性活动承诺相关的欺骗手段。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Dr. Buss's laboratory has also evaluated how status is assessed, meaning how we evaluate our own worth and our potential as a mate, and who is, let's just say, within range of a potential mate, both in the short and long term.
巴斯博士的实验室还评估了如何评估地位，这意味着我们如何评估自己的价值和作为伴侣的潜力，以及谁在短期和长期的潜在伴侣范围内。
For instance, today we talk about how people don't just make direct assessments of their own and other people's value as a potential mate, but also using the assessments of others to indirectly determine whether or not they stand a chance or not in securing somebody as a short or long-term mate.
例如，今天我们讨论人们如何不仅直接评估自己和他人作为潜在伴侣的价值，而且还利用他人的评估来间接确定他们是否有机会获得某人作为短期或长期伴侣。
His laboratory has also focused on some of the complicated and varied emotions related to mating love in relationships, such as lust and jealousy.
他的实验室还专注于与人际关系中的交配之爱相关的一些复杂而多样的情感，例如欲望和嫉妒。
And he's extensively explored something called mate poaching, or the various strategies that men and women use to make sure that the person that they want to be with, or the person they are with, is not with anyone else or seeking anyone else, and indeed that other people don't seek their mate.
他广泛地探讨了一种所谓的“偷猎”行为，即男人和女人使用的各种策略，以确保他们想要在一起的人或与他们在一起的人不与其他人在一起或正在寻找其他人，并且实际上其他人不会寻找他们的伴侣。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Dr. Buss's work also relates to how biological influences, such as ovulation or time within the menstrual cycle, influences mate selection or tendency to have sex or not with a potential short or long-term mate.
巴斯博士的工作还涉及生物影响（例如排卵或月经周期内的时间）如何影响配偶选择或与潜在的短期或长期配偶发生性行为或不发生性行为的倾向。
And more recent work from Dr. Buss's laboratory focuses on the darker aspects of mating and sexual behavior in humans, including stalking and sexual violence.
巴斯博士实验室最近的工作重点是人类交配和性行为的阴暗面，包括跟踪和性暴力。
Today we discuss all those topics.
今天我们讨论所有这些话题。
We also discuss some of the strategies that humans can use to make healthy mate selection choices, and for those that are already in committed relationships, to ensure healthy progression of those committed relationships.
我们还讨论了人类可以用来做出健康的择偶选择的一些策略，以及对于那些已经处于承诺关系中的人来说，以确保这些承诺关系的健康发展。
In addition to publishing dozens of landmark scientific studies, Dr. Buss has authored many important books.
除了发表数十项具有里程碑意义的科学研究外，巴斯博士还撰写了许多重要的书籍。
A few of those include "The Evolution of Desire" and "Why Women Have Sex," and his most recent book is the one that I'm reading now, which is called "When Men Behave Badly: The Hidden Roots of Sexual Deception, Harassment, and Assault."
其中包括《欲望的演变》和《女人为何发生性关系》，我现在正在读的就是他最近的一本书，书名是《当男人行为恶劣时：性欺骗、骚扰和性侵犯的隐藏根源》。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it's an absolutely fascinating read.
这绝对是一本令人着迷的读物。
It has endorsements from Dr. Robert Sapolsky, professor at Stanford, who's been on this podcast as a guest before, as well as Steven Pinker, and Jonathan Haidt, who wrote "The Coddling of the American Mind." It's a really important book, I believe, and one that doesn't just get into the darker aspects of human mating behavior and violence, but also strategies that people can take to ensure healthy mating behavior and relationships.
它得到了斯坦福大学教授罗伯特·萨波尔斯基（Robert Sapolsky）博士的认可，他之前曾作为嘉宾参加过这个播客，还有史蒂文·平克（Steven Pinker）和《美国心灵的溺爱》（The Coddling of the American Mind）的作者乔纳森·海特（Jonathan Haidt）。我相信，这是一本非常重要的书，它不仅探讨了人类交配行为和暴力的阴暗面，而且还介绍了人们可以采取的确保健康交配行为和关系的策略。
There's so much rumor, speculation, and outright fabrication of ideas about why humans select particular mates in the short and long term, what men and women do differently, and so on.
关于人类为什么在短期和长期选择特定的伴侣、男人和女人的做法有何不同等等，有很多谣言、猜测和完全捏造的想法。
What I love about Dr. Buss's work is that it's grounded in laboratory studies that are highly quantitative using rigorous statistics.
我喜欢巴斯博士的工作，因为它以实验室研究为基础，使用严格的统计数据进行高度定量。
And so throughout today's discussion, you'll notice that I'm rapt with attention, trying to extract as much information as I can from Dr. Buss about the real science of human mate selection and mating strategy.
因此，在今天的讨论中，您会注意到我全神贯注，试图从巴斯博士那里获取尽可能多的有关人类择偶和交配策略的真正科学的信息。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm certain that everyone will take away extremely valuable knowledge that they can use in existing or future relationships from this discussion with Dr. Buss.
我确信每个人都会从与巴斯博士的讨论中获得非常有价值的知识，这些知识可以用于现有或未来的关系。
Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.
在开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。
It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero-cost-to-consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public.
然而，我的愿望和努力的一部分是将有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本消费者信息带给公众。
In keeping with that theme, I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast.
为了与这个主题保持一致，我要感谢今天播客的赞助商。
And now my conversation with Dr. David Buss.
现在是我与大卫·巴斯博士的对话。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, David, delighted to be here.
好吧，大卫，很高兴来到这里。
I've followed your work for a number of years, and I'm excited to ask you a number of questions about these super interesting topics about how people select mates, how they lie, cheat and ...
我关注你的工作很多年了，我很高兴能问你一些关于这些超级有趣的话题的问题，比如人们如何选择伴侣，他们如何撒谎，欺骗和......
but also behave well in this dance that we call mate choice.
但也要在我们称之为择偶的舞蹈中表现得很好。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
Yes.
是的。
Yeah, fortunately there are well-behaving humans in the mix here.
是的，幸运的是这里有行为良好的人。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Good to know.
很高兴知道。
Just to start off, perhaps you could just orient us a little bit about mate choice.
首先，也许你可以向我们介绍一下择偶问题。
Some of the primary criteria that studies show men and women use in order to select mates, both ...
研究表明，男性和女性选择伴侣时所使用的一些主要标准，都是......
should we call them transient mates, as well as lifetime mates,
我们应该称他们为短暂的伴侣，还是终生的伴侣，
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
Right.
对。
Well, that's a critical distinction, because what people look for in a long-term committed mateship like a marriage partner or a long-term romantic relationship, is different from what people look for in a hookup or casual sex or one-night stand, or even a brief affair, so that's actually critical.
嗯，这是一个关键的区别，因为人们在婚姻伴侣或长期浪漫关系等长期忠诚的伴侣关系中寻找的东西，不同于人们在勾搭、随意性行为、一夜情、甚至短暂的外遇中寻找的东西，所以这实际上是至关重要的。
I wonder if we could maybe just back up a second and just talk a little bit about the theoretical framework for understanding mate choice?
我想知道我们是否可以退一步，谈谈理解择偶的理论框架？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sure.
当然。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
So it basically stems from Darwin's theory of sexual selection, and most people when they think about evolution, they think about cliches like survival of the fittest or nature, red in tooth and claw.
所以它基本上源于达尔文的性选择理论，大多数人在思考进化论时，都会想到适者生存或自然，牙齿和爪子呈红色之类的陈词滥调。
And Darwin noticed that there were phenomena that couldn't be explained by this so-called survival selection.
达尔文注意到有些现象无法用这种所谓的生存选择来解释。
Things like the brilliant plumage of peacocks, sex differences, like in ...
比如孔雀绚丽的羽毛、性别差异，比如......
stags, for example, have these massive antlers, and the females of the species do not.
例如，雄鹿有这些巨大的鹿角，而该物种的雌性则没有。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
And so he came up with the theory of sexual selection, which deals not with the evolution of characteristics due to their survival advantage, but rather due to their mating advantage.
因此，他提出了性选择理论，该理论涉及的不是由于生存优势而导致的特征进化，而是由于交配优势而导致的特征进化。
And he identified two causal processes by which mating advantage could occur.
他还发现了两个可能产生交配优势的因果过程。
One is intrasexual competition, with the stereotype being two stags locking horns in combat, with the victor gaining sexual access to the female, loser ambling off with a broken antler and dejected, in low self-esteem and needing psychotherapy, perhaps, or mate-value-improvement therapy.
一种是性内竞争，人们的刻板印象是两只雄鹿互相角斗，胜利者获得与雌性的性接触，失败者带着折断的鹿角漫步而去，垂头丧气，自尊心低，可能需要心理治疗，或者伴侣价值提升治疗。
And the logic was, whatever qualities led to success in these same-sex battles, those qualities get passed on in greater numbers.
逻辑是，无论什么品质导致这些同性斗争取得成功，这些品质都会被更多的人传承下去。
And so you see evolution, which is change over time and increase in frequency of the characteristics associated with winning these, what Darwin called "contest competition." Now we know that the logic of that is more general now and involves things like, in our species, competing for position and status hierarchies.
所以你会看到进化，它是随着时间的推移而变化的，并且与赢得这些特征相关的频率的增加，达尔文称之为“竞赛竞争”。现在我们知道，这种逻辑现在更加普遍，并且涉及到诸如在我们物种中争夺位置和地位等级之类的事情。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
So anyway, so intrasexual competition is one, but the second, most relevant to your question about mate choice, is preferential mate choice.
所以无论如何，性内竞争是其中之一，但第二个，与你关于择偶问题最相关的，是优先择偶。
That was the second causal pathway.
这是第二条因果路径。
And the logic there is that if members of one sex agree with one another, if there's some consensus about the qualities that are desired, then those of the opposite sex who possess the desired qualities or embody those desired qualities, they have a mating advantage.
其中的逻辑是，如果一种性别的成员彼此同意，如果对所需的品质有某种共识，那么那些拥有所需品质或体现这些所需品质的异性，他们就拥有交配优势。
They get chosen, they get preferred.
他们被选择，他们被优先。
Those lacking desired qualities get banished, shunned, ignored, or, in the modern environment, become incels.
那些缺乏所需品质的人会被驱逐、回避、忽视，或者在现代环境中，成为非自愿者。
And so the logic there is very simple, but also very powerful.
所以那里的逻辑非常简单，但也非常强大。
And that is that whatever qualities are desired, consensually desired, if there's some heritable basis to those, then those increase in frequency over time.
也就是说，无论人们想要什么品质，只要双方都愿意，如果这些品质有一些可遗传的基础，那么这些品质的频率就会随着时间的推移而增加。
And in the human case, these two causal processes of sexual selection are related to each other, in that the preferences of, the mate preferences of one sex basically set the ground rules for competition in the opposite sex.
就人类而言，这两个性选择的因果过程是相互关联的，因为一种性别的择偶偏好基本上为异性竞争设定了基本规则。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
So if, for example, hypothetically, women preferred to mate with men who were able and willing to devote resources to them, then that would create competition among men to claw their way and beat out other men in resource acquisition, and then displaying that ...
因此，例如，假设女性更愿意与有能力并且愿意为她们投入资源的男性交配，那么这就会在男性之间产生竞争，在资源获取方面抢占先机并击败其他男性，然后表现出……
their willingness to commit that to a particular woman.
他们愿意将其承诺给某个特定的女人。
And same with women though, and this is one of the interesting things about humans, is that we have mutual mate choice, which is not true in all species.
女性也一样，这是人类有趣的事情之一，那就是我们有共同的择偶选择，但并非所有物种都是如此。
And that is, that it's not just a matter of you selecting someone to be your mate, they have to reciprocally select you.
也就是说，这不仅仅是你选择某人作为你的伴侣的问题，他们也必须相互选择你。
And so with mutual mate choice, we have both preferences, mate preferences that women have and mate preferences that men have, and consequently, competition among men for access to the most desirable women and competition among women for access to the most desirable men.
因此，在相互的择偶选择中，我们既有偏好，也有女性的择偶偏好和男性的择偶偏好，因此，男性之间为获得最理想的女性而竞争，而女性之间为获得最理想的男性而竞争。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
So that's sort of a little bit of the theoretical backdrop.
这就是一些理论背景。
So you asked, "Well, what are the qualities that men and women desire?" And maybe we'll start with long-term mating and then shift to short-term mating.
所以你问：“那么，男人和女人渴望的品质是什么？”也许我们会从长期交配开始，然后转向短期交配。
And long-term mating is interesting, in and of itself, in that it's very rare in the mammalian world.
长期交配本身就很有趣，因为这在哺乳动物世界中非常罕见。
So there are more than 5,000 species of primates, of which ...
所以灵长类动物有5000多种，其中...
I'm sorry, more than 5,000 species of mammals, of which we are one.
抱歉，哺乳动物有 5000 多种，我们只是其中之一。
But the percentage of mammals that have anything resembling like a pair-bonded long-term mating strategy, it's about 3 to 5%.
但拥有类似配对长期交配策略的哺乳动物比例大约为 3% 到 5%。
It's extremely rare.
这是极其罕见的。
And even our closest primate relatives, the chimpanzees, they don't have a long-term mating strategy.
即使是我们灵长类动物的近亲黑猩猩，它们也没有长期的交配策略。
They don't have anything resembling pair-bond in mating.
它们在交配中没有任何类似于配对的东西。
And then in the chimps, the females come into estrus.
然后在黑猩猩中，雌性进入发情期。
Almost all the sexual activity occurs during the estrus phase.
几乎所有的性活动都发生在发情期。
After that, the males and females basically ignore each other, for the most part, with some exceptions.
此后，雄性和雌性基本上都互相忽视，除了一些例外。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
But with humans, you have the evolution of long-term pair-bonding attachment, heavy male investment in offspring, relatively concealed ovulation, and so these are kind of unique aspects of the human mating system.
但对于人类来说，长期的配对依恋、雄性对后代的大量投资、相对隐蔽的排卵等等这些都是人类交配系统的独特方面。
So to get to your question, well, what are the qualities?
那么，回答你的问题，那么，有哪些品质呢？
The most large-scale study that's been done on this is a study that I did, a while back, of 37 different cultures, and it's now been replicated by other researchers.
对此进行的最大规模的研究是我不久前对 37 种不同文化进行的一项研究，现在其他研究人员已经重复了这项研究。
But basically what we found is three clusters of things.
但基本上我们发现的是三组东西。
We found qualities that both men and women wanted in a long-term mate, we found some qualities that were sex-differentiated, where women preferred them more than men, or men preferred them more than women, and then we found some attributes that were highly variable across cultures, in whether people found these as desirable or indispensable or irrelevant in a mate.
我们发现了男性和女性都希望长期伴侣具备的品质，我们发现了一些有性别差异的品质，女性比男性更喜欢这些品质，或者男性比女性更喜欢这些品质，然后我们发现了一些在不同文化中差异很大的品质，人们认为这些品质对于伴侣来说是理想的、不可或缺的还是无关紧要的。
And so I could give examples of each of these if that-
所以我可以举出每一个的例子，如果-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, that would be great.
是的，那太好了。
I'd love to know what some of the common themes were across these cultures, in terms of what's being mate and sexually selected for.
我很想知道这些文化中的一些共同主题，即择偶和性选择的目的。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
Yeah.
是的。
So some of the things that were ...
所以有些事情是...
so if you talk about universal desires, so things that men and women share, there are things like intelligence, kindness, mutual attraction and love, which is really kind of heartwarming because some people think that love is a recent Western invention by some European poets, but it turns out it's not true.
所以如果你谈论普遍的欲望，那么男人和女人共有的东西，比如智慧、善良、相互吸引和爱情，这真的很温暖人心，因为有些人认为爱情是一些欧洲诗人最近在西方发明的，但事实证明这不是真的。
You go to the Kung San in the Botswana, and they describe pretty much the same experience as a falling in love as we do.
你去博茨瓦纳的 Kung San，他们描述的坠入爱河的经历与我们几乎相同。
And even describe the distinction between this kind of infatuation stage of love and the attachment phase, where you can't maintain this frenzy of infatuation and obsession for very long.
甚至还描述了这种爱情的迷恋阶段和依恋阶段的区别，在依恋阶段，你无法长时间保持这种疯狂的迷恋和痴迷。
Six weeks, maybe six months at most.
六周，最多六个月。
Otherwise, you can get nothing else done in your life.
否则，你一生中将一事无成。
And-
还有——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Those are those dopamine circuits firing at high frequency.
这些是高频发射的多巴胺电路。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
Yes.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
So mutual attraction, love, good health, dependability, emotional stability, although there's a bit of a sex difference there with women preferring it a bit more than men.
因此，相互吸引、爱、身体健康、可靠、情绪稳定，尽管存在一些性别差异，女性比男性更喜欢这些。
And so basically, and these may seem obvious, so no one wants a stupid, mean, ugly, disease-ridden mate.
基本上，这些似乎是显而易见的，所以没有人想要一个愚蠢、卑鄙、丑陋、疾病缠身的伴侣。
And so perhaps obvious, but no one knew this in advance of the 37-culture study.
这也许是显而易见的，但在 37 种文化研究之前没有人知道这一点。
So these were some universal preferences.
所以这些是一些普遍的偏好。
So you go to the Zulu tribe in South Africa, or Rio de Janeiro in Brazil, or Portugal, or Oslo, or anywhere in the world, and these are qualities that people universally desire in long-term mates.
所以你去南非的祖鲁部落，或者巴西的里约热内卢，或者葡萄牙，或者奥斯陆，或者世界任何地方，这些都是人们普遍渴望长期伴侣的品质。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
Sex differences.
性别差异。
Sex differences basically fell into two clusters.
性别差异基本上分为两类。
Women more than men, prioritized good earning capacity, slightly older age, and the qualities associated with resource acquisition.
女性比男性更看重良好的赚钱能力、稍大的年龄以及与资源获取相关的品质。
So these are things like a man's social status, does he have drive, is he ambitious?
那么这些就是一个人的社会地位，他是否有干劲，他是否有野心？
Does he have a good long-term resource trajectory is one way that I like to phrase it, because women often ...
他是否拥有良好的长期资源轨迹是我喜欢表达的一种方式，因为女性经常......
they don't look at necessarily the resources that a guy possesses at this moment, but what is his trajectory?
他们不一定会看一个人此时拥有的资源，但他的轨迹是什么？
And so-
所以——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Just ...
只是...
sorry to interrupt, but may I ask, is there anything known about the commonalities of how that is assessed?
抱歉打扰，但我可以问一下，对于评估方式的共性是否有任何了解？
Is it, he's rolling out of bed early and running eight miles, he's showing proficiency in school, he handles himself well socially at parties, isn't drinking too much but knows when ...
是吗，他很早就起床跑了八英里，他在学校表现出色，他在聚会上表现得很好，没有喝太多酒，但知道什么时候......
I mean, obviously they're integrating multiple cues.
我的意思是，显然他们正在整合多种线索。
The brain is a complex place, but is there any information about what those variables are, across cultures?
大脑是一个复杂的地方，但是有关于跨文化的这些变量的信息吗？
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
Yeah.
是的。
Well I think that there's been less attention to that, so that's a great question.
嗯，我认为人们对此的关注较少，所以这是一个很好的问题。
One of the things that we do know across culture, is that women attend to the attention structure.
我们在不同文化中都知道的一件事是，女性会关注注意力结构。
So the attention structure is a key determine of status.
所以注意力结构是决定地位的关键。
So those people who are high in status are those to whom the most people pay the most attention.
所以那些地位高的人，也是最受人们关注的人。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So the attention of others to them, not how well a given potential mate can focus and pay attention necessarily?
那么，其他人对他们的关注，而不是某个潜在伴侣能够集中注意力的程度？
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Uh-huh.
嗯嗯。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
Yeah.
是的。
Exactly.
确切地。
But women, look, I mean, is the guy, even in the modern environment, is the guy spending eight hours a day playing video games, eating Cheetos and drinking beer, or is he devoting effort to his professional development?
但是女人，我的意思是，即使在现代环境中，这个男人是每天花八个小时玩电子游戏、吃奇多、喝啤酒，还是致力于职业发展？
So hard work, ambition, does he have clear goals, or is he in an existential crisis, not knowing what he's going to do with his life?
那么努力工作，雄心勃勃，他是否有明确的目标，或者他是否处于生存危机，不知道自己要做什么？
Those are some of the qualities that people look for, and also, women use what's called in literature "mate choice copying." This is related in part to the attention structure.
这些是人们寻找的一些品质，而且，女性也使用文学中所谓的“择偶复制”。这部分与注意力结构有关。
That is, guys who have passed the filters of multiple women, those are like preapproved.
也就是说，那些已经通过了多个女人筛选的男人，就像是预先批准的。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
So we've done studies where you just take a guy, photograph him alone versus take the same guy, put an attractive woman next to him, or put two women next to him, and women judge exactly the same guy to be much more attractive if he's paired with women than if he's not.
所以我们做了研究，你只拍摄一个男人，单独拍摄他，而不是拍摄同一个男人，在他旁边放一个有魅力的女人，或者在他旁边放两个女人，女人会认为同一个男人在与女性配对时比不与女性配对时更具吸引力。
And some guys exploit this in the modern world by hiring wing women to go with them on dates, and so forth.
在现代世界，有些男人利用这一点，雇佣翼女和他们一起约会，等等。
"Oh, this is my sister, my former girlfriend," or whatever.
“哦，这是我的妹妹，我的前女友”之类的。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
But you're correct in that women use multiple cues to assess these things, and they change over time.
但你是对的，因为女性使用多种线索来评估这些事情，而且它们会随着时间的推移而改变。
In the modern environment, even in things like the attention structure, does this guy have a million Twitter followers or three Twitter followers?
在现代环境中，即使在注意力结构之类的方面，这家伙是拥有一百万推特粉丝还是三个推特粉丝？
So that is an index of the attention structure and hence the status of the guy within the broader community.
所以这是注意力结构的指数，也是这个人在更广泛的社区中的地位的指数。
And from an evolutionary perspective, it's reasonable that women would prioritize these qualities, because of the tremendous asymmetry in our reproductive biology.
从进化的角度来看，由于我们的生殖生物学存在巨大的不对称性，女性优先考虑这些品质是合理的。
Namely that fertilization occurs internally within women, not within men.
也就是说，受精发生在女性体内，而不是男性体内。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
Women bear the burdens of the nine-month pregnancy, which is metabolically expensive, as well as creating opportunity costs in terms of mobility and solving other tasks that people need to solve in the course of their lives.
女性承受着怀孕九个月的负担，这在新陈代谢上是昂贵的，并且在流动性和解决人们一生中需要解决的其他任务方面创造了机会成本。
One way to phrase that is that the costs of making a bad mate choice are much heavier for women, when it comes to sexual behavior certainly, because ...
一种说法是，在性行为方面，女性选择错误伴侣的代价要沉重得多，因为……
and the benefits correspondingly of making a wise mate choice are higher for women in the sexual context.
相应地，在性方面，做出明智的择偶选择对女性来说好处更大。
But as I said, we have mutual mate choice in our species.
但正如我所说，我们这个物种有共同的择偶选择。
And so what do men value more than women?
那么男人比女人更看重什么？
Physical attractiveness.
身体吸引力。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They rank that as a more important criteria than do women about men?
他们认为这是比女性对男性更重要的标准？
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
Yes.
是的。
Yeah, exactly.
是的，完全正确。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Consistently across cultures?
跨文化一致？
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
Consistently.
始终如一。
And it's not that women are indifferent to it.
这并不是说女性对此无动于衷。
So women do pay attention to a guy's physical appearance, his fitness, and so forth.
所以女人确实会关注男人的外表、健康状况等等。
And guys are actually off base in the thinking that women prefer more muscular men than they actually do.
男人们认为女人更喜欢肌肉发达的男人，这种想法实际上是错误的。
So in muscle magazines, these men with bulging biceps, and so forth, women don't find that especially ...
因此，在肌肉杂志中，这些男性的二头肌凸出等等，女性并没有发现特别......
but they do prioritize fit men, a good shoulder-to-hip ratio and other qualities of physical appearance, as well as things like cues to health.
但他们确实优先考虑健康的男性、良好的肩臀比和其他外貌品质，以及健康提示等因素。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
So, physical appearance provides a wealth of information about the person's health status, but also provides for men a wealth of information about a woman's fertility, her reproductive value.
因此，外表提供了有关人的健康状况的丰富信息，也为男性提供了有关女性生育能力和生殖价值的丰富信息。
Now, not that men think about that consciously.
现在，男人并没有有意识地思考这个问题。
I mean, men don't walk down the street and see a woman and say, "Oh, I find her attractive because I think she must be very fertile." Maybe a few weird people do that, but most men just ...
我的意思是，男人不会走在街上，看到一个女人并说：“哦，我发现她很有吸引力，因为我认为她一定很有生育能力。”也许有一些奇怪的人会这样做，但大多数男人只是......
It's like they just find those cues attractive.
就好像他们只是觉得这些线索很有吸引力。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
And the cues are cues associated with youth and health, because we know that youth is a very powerful cue to fertility and reproductive value.
这些线索是与年轻和健康相关的线索，因为我们知道年轻是生育力和生殖价值的非常有力的线索。
So men prioritize physical appearance.
所以男人优先考虑外表。
And in the field of psychology, it used to ...
在心理学领域，它曾经...
well I was taught, when I was an undergraduate, that you can't judge a book by its cover, that physical attractiveness was infinitely arbitrary, infinitely culturally variable, and it's simply not true.
当我还是一名本科生时，我被教导说，你不能以貌取人，外表吸引力是无限任意的，无限文化可变的，而这根本不是事实。
We know now, based on the last 20 years of scientific studies, that the cues that men find attractive in women are not at all arbitrary.
根据过去 20 年的科学研究，我们现在知道，男性认为女性有吸引力的暗示并不是任意的。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
There is some variation across cultures, like in relative plumpness versus thinness, but things like clear skin, clear eyes, symmetrical features, a low waist-to-hip ratio, full lips, lustrous hair, all these are qualities that are associated with youth and health, and hence have evolved to be part of our standards of attractiveness.
不同文化之间存在一些差异，比如相对丰满与相对瘦弱的差异，但干净的皮肤、清澈的眼睛、对称的五官、低腰臀比、丰满的嘴唇、有光泽的头发，所有这些都是与年轻和健康相关的品质，因此已经演变成为我们吸引力标准的一部分。
And so it's not just that men are these superficial creatures who evaluate women on the basis of appearances, there's an underlying logic to why they do so.
因此，男人不仅仅只是根据外表来评价女人的肤浅生物，他们这样做也是有其内在逻辑的。
And as I said, relative youth, this age thing, is one of the largest sex differences that you find in long-term mate selection, with women preferring somewhat older men and men preferring somewhat younger women.
正如我所说，相对年轻，这个年龄问题，是你在长期择偶中发现的最大的性别差异之一，女性更喜欢年长的男性，男性更喜欢年轻的女性。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is there a consistent age gap to relate to that statement?
是否存在与该陈述相关的一致年龄差距？
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
Yes, there is.
是的，有。
The age gap, though, depends on the age of the man.
不过，年龄差距取决于男人的年龄。
We can document this.
我们可以记录这一点。
In my studies, what we found is that men preferred women who were about three to four years younger than they were, on average.
在我的研究中，我们发现男性更喜欢平均比自己年轻三到四岁的女性。
And I'll qualify this in a second.
我稍后会对此进行限定。
Women preferred guys who were about three and a half to four and a half years older than they were.
女性更喜欢比自己大三岁半到四岁半的男性。
So there was a sex difference going in the opposite direction, but as men get older, they prefer women who are increasingly younger than they are.
因此，性别差异是朝着相反的方向发展的，但随着男性年龄的增长，他们更喜欢比自己更年轻的女性。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
One way to gauge this: there are actual marriage statistics, and then there are expressed preferences, and both sexes kind of converged.
衡量这一点的一种方法是：有实际的婚姻统计数据，然后有表达的偏好，而且两性都趋于一致。
So if you look at first marriage, second marriage, third marriages, if people get divorced and remarried, average age gap is, in America anyway, is three years at first marriage, with the guys being older, five years at second marriage, and eight years at third marriage.
因此，如果你看看第一次婚姻、第二次婚姻、第三次婚姻，如果人们离婚和再婚，平均年龄差距是，无论如何，在美国，第一次婚姻的平均年龄差距是三年，男性年龄较大，第二次婚姻的平均年龄差距是五年，第三次婚姻的平均年龄差距是八岁。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
So that as men are getting older and getting divorced and remarrying, they are marrying women who are increasingly younger than they are.
因此，随着男人年龄的增长、离婚和再婚，他们娶的女人越来越比自己年轻。
In terms of preferences, it's also expressed in preferences.
从喜好上来说，也是表现在喜好上。
So it doesn't go down.
所以它不会下降。
So like a, say a 25-year-old man would, say, prefer a woman who's 20, or in her early 20's; 35-year-old man might prefer a woman who's in her late 20's or early 30's.
比如说，一个 25 岁的男人会喜欢一个 20 岁或 20 岁出头的女人； 35 岁的男人可能更喜欢 20 岁末或 30 岁出头的女人。
A 50-year-old man might prefer a woman who's, say, 35 to 38.
一个 50 岁的男人可能更喜欢一个 35 到 38 岁的女人。
So the preferences do go up, but the gap gets increasingly larger.
所以偏好确实上升了，但差距却越来越大。
And the reason that you don't see things like, why aren't men preferring women ...
你看不到这样的事情的原因是，为什么男人不喜欢女人......
so peak fertility in humans is around age 24, 25.
因此，人类的生育高峰期是在 24、25 岁左右。
And so you say, well, why aren't the 60-year-old men prioritizing 25-year-old women?
那么你会说，为什么 60 岁的男性不优先考虑 25 岁的女性呢？
Well, as I mentioned, we have a ...
嗯，正如我提到的，我们有一个......
it's a reciprocal mutual mate choice phenomenon.
这是一种相互的择偶现象。
So-
所以——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
She constrains the equation too?
她也约束方程？
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
Well she constrains it, but also, marriage and long-term mating are things other than reproductive unions in the modern environment.
好吧，她限制了它，而且，婚姻和长期交配在现代环境中与生殖联盟不同。
That is they're ...
那就是他们...
you're supposed to do things as a couple, and if you get too large an age gap, then essentially, you're in different cultures.
你们应该像夫妻一样做事，如果你们的年龄差距太大，那么本质上，你们处于不同的文化中。
You grow up with different songs, and if the cultural gap gets too large, you don't understand each other.
你们是伴随着不同的歌曲长大的，如果文化差距太大，你们就无法理解彼此。
So there are constraints on that.
所以这方面是有限制的。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
But if you look at contexts where there are no constraints of that sort ...
但如果你看看没有这种限制的环境......
so historically, kings, emperors, despots, et cetera — and I'll give one more modern example — they basically prefer young, fertile, attractive females.
所以从历史上看，国王、皇帝、暴君等等——我会举一个更现代的例子——他们基本上更喜欢年轻、生育能力强、有吸引力的女性。
And if they have harems, they stock the harems with those, and then circulate them out when they're 30, and so forth.
如果他们有后宫，他们就会在后宫里储备这些，然后在他们30岁时将它们分发出去，依此类推。
And so if you look at marriage systems that are unconstrained, then the preferences are more likely to be revealed.
因此，如果你观察不受约束的婚姻制度，那么偏好就更有可能被揭示。
Or within cultures, that is if you look at men who are in a position to get what they want.
或者在文化中，如果你观察那些有能力得到他们想要的东西的人。
So as Mick Jagger noted, "You can't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes, you get what you need."
正如米克·贾格尔所说：“你不可能总能得到你想要的东西，但如果你有时尝试，你就会得到你需要的东西。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I hear that it ...
我听说它...
that most of the time, he got what he needed.
大多数时候，他得到了他需要的东西。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
Right.
对。
He got what he wanted.
他得到了他想要的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
Yeah.
是的。
And maybe what he needed, but he was in a position ...
也许他需要什么，但他处于一个位置......
I don't know if he still is.
我不知道他现在是否还在。
He's in his 70's now, but he was in a position, as was, let's say, Rod Stewart, to take another example.
他现在已经 70 多岁了，但他处于一个有利的位置，就像罗德·斯图尔特（Rod Stewart）一样，再举一个例子。
Or Leonardo DiCaprio.
或者莱昂纳多·迪卡普里奥。
If you are a male who's in the position where there are thousands of women potentially available to you, and you can have your pick, then you see that clear expression for younger females.
如果你是一名男性，并且你所处的位置有成千上万的女性可供你选择，并且你可以做出选择，那么你会看到年轻女性的清晰表达。
There was a chart that was floating around the Internet of the girlfriends of Leonardo DiCaprio as he got older.
网上流传着一张莱昂纳多·迪卡普里奥 (Leonardo DiCaprio) 女友随年龄增长的图表。
So he's getting older and older, and the graph of the ages of his girlfriends, it basically stayed the same.
所以他越来越老了，他女朋友的年龄图，基本保持不变。
It was in the early 20's or so.
那是在20世纪20年代初期左右。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
He values consistency.
他重视一致性。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
He values consistency.
他重视一致性。
The data converge on that; so these are universal sex differences in long-term mate selection.
数据集中于此；所以这些是长期择偶过程中普遍存在的性别差异。
So now when we shift to ...
所以现在当我们转向...
and I should mention cultural variability, because that's a critical thing, because there is ...
我应该提到文化差异，因为这是一件至关重要的事情，因为……
in my 37-culture study, what I found was the preference for virginity, that is no prior sexual experience, that was the most variable desire across cultures.
在我对 37 种文化的研究中，我发现对童贞的偏好，即没有性经历，这是跨文化中变化最大的欲望。
So you had cultures like, at the time of the study, China.
所以在研究的时候就有像中国这样的文化。
It was basically indispensable that a partner be a virgin.
伴侣必须是处女，这基本上是必不可少的。
And then at the other end, you have Sweden, where Swedes typically place close to zero value on it, and some even find it undesirable.
另一方面，瑞典人通常对它的评价接近于零，有些人甚至认为它是不可取的。
You're weird if you're a virgin, and so they have this whole spectrum-
如果你是处女，你就很奇怪，所以他们有整个谱系——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This is virginity in the female, or is this also ...
这就是女性的童贞，或者说这也是……
in China, was it preference that the male and the female be a virgin?
在中国，是否优先考虑男性和女性都是处女？
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
Okay.
好的。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So mutual mate selection by-
所以相互的择偶选择是——
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
Yeah.
是的。
It was a preference for both sexes.
这对两性来说都是一种偏好。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Interesting.
有趣。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
But it's a good question, because where there was a sex difference, it was always in the direction of males preferring virginity more than females.
但这是一个很好的问题，因为在存在性别差异的地方，男性总是比女性更喜欢贞操。
And we've gone back to China.
我们已经回到中国了。
So I still do research in China, among other places, and we've gone back and retested modern urban populations.
所以我仍然在中国和其他地方进行研究，我们回过头来重新测试了现代城市人口。
And the importance of virginity has gone down in China, especially in the urban areas.
在中国，尤其是在城市地区，童贞的重要性已经下降。
And the sex difference that didn't exist before has now emerged, where males value it more than females.
以前不存在的性别差异现在已经出现，男性比女性更重视这种差异。
And I think part of it was in previous times, you hit ceiling effects, where both sexes say, "Yeah, it's absolutely important to be a virgin."
我认为部分原因是在以前，你会遇到天花板效应，男女都会说，“是的，成为处女绝对重要。”
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
So there's cultural variation and cultural change over time in some of these qualities, but the sex differences that I described have remained invariant over the years.
因此，随着时间的推移，其中一些品质会出现文化差异和文化变化，但我所描述的性别差异多年来一直保持不变。
So since my 37-culture study, this has been replicated in at least a couple other dozen different cultures, and we've gone back to some of the cultures.
因此，自从我对 37 种文化进行研究以来，这一点已经在至少另外几十种不同的文化中得到了复制，并且我们又回到了其中一些文化。
I mentioned we've gone back to China, Brazil and India, to look at cultural changes over time.
我提到我们已经回到中国、巴西和印度，研究随着时间的推移文化的变化。
And there have been, in some cases, dramatic cultural changes over time, but the sex differences that I described are invariant.
在某些情况下，随着时间的推移，文化发生了巨大的变化，但我所描述的性别差异是不变的。
They haven't changed a bit.
他们一点也没变。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd be remiss if I didn't ask about truth telling and deception, because some of the measures that you're describing, age, for instance, one can potentially lie about, right?
如果我不问关于说真话和欺骗的问题，那就是我的失职，因为你所描述的一些衡量标准，例如年龄，可能会撒谎，对吗？
I'm guessing that there are people who do that on online profiles.
我猜有人会在网上的个人资料上这样做。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And whatnot.
还有诸如此类的。
From what I understand, people also lie about height and other features on online profiles, but some of them are much harder to hide.
据我了解，人们也会在网上个人资料上谎报身高和其他特征，但其中一些更难隐藏。
Right?
正确的？
Eventually the truth comes out about some, if not all, of these things.
最终，其中一些（如果不是全部）事情的真相会浮出水面。
So if you would, could you tell us about how men and women leverage deception versus truth telling and communicating some of the things around mate choice selection?
那么，如果您愿意，您能否告诉我们男人和女人如何利用欺骗与说真话以及沟通有关择偶选择的一些事情？
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
Yeah.
是的。
Basically the ...
基本上...
both men and women do deceive.
男人和女人都会欺骗。
So we have the modern cultural invention of online dating, which was little used 10 years ago, and virtually absent 20 years ago.
因此，我们有了在线约会这一现代文化发明，它在 10 年前很少使用，在 20 年前几乎不存在。
And people do lie, but they lie in predictable ways.
人们确实会撒谎，但他们撒谎的方式是可以预见的。
They lie in ways that attempt to embody the mate preferences of the person they're trying to attract.
他们撒谎的方式试图体现他们想要吸引的人的择偶偏好。
And so men do lie, they deceive about their income, their status; so they exaggerate their income by about 20%.
因此，男人确实会撒谎，他们在收入和地位上撒谎；所以他们将收入夸大了20%左右。
They add ...
他们添加...
they tack on about two inches to their height.
他们增加了大约两英寸的高度。
So if they're 5'10," they round up to six feet.
因此，如果他们身高 5 英尺 10 英寸，”则四舍五入为 6 英尺。
So they don't ...
所以他们不...
like if they're 5'10," they don't say that they're gigantic, but they kind of round it up in the more desirable direction.
就像他们身高 5 英尺 10 英寸一样，”他们并没有说自己是巨大的，但他们将其朝着更理想的方向四舍五入。
Women tend to deceive about weight, so they tend to shave about 15 pounds off of their reported weight.
女性往往会在体重上撒谎，因此她们往往会比所报告的体重减轻约 15 磅。
And both sexes post photos that are not truly representative of what they actually look like.
而且男女发布的照片都不能真正代表他们的实际样子。
So they might post photos of themselves when they were younger, or there are even advice tips on how to create the best selfie, of the best angle that will maximally enhance what you look like.
因此，他们可能会发布自己年轻时的照片，或者甚至会提供有关如何创建最佳自拍照、最佳角度的建议，以最大程度地增强您的外观。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or just doctoring of photos, I'm guessing also.
或者只是修改照片，我猜也是。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
Yeah, photoshopping.
是的，拍照。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
And one of the things about it, now you say like, well, do people find out.
关于它的一件事，现在你说，好吧，人们会发现吗？
Of course people do find out.
当然，人们确实发现了。
I mean I'll just give you one story about a colleague of mine who was doing ...
我的意思是，我只想给你讲一个关于我的一位同事的故事，他正在做......
is a male who's doing Internet dating, and he picked only women who self-described as sevens on the one-to-seven on attractiveness, so the most attractive as self-reported.
是一位在网上约会的男性，他只挑选了在吸引力上自称是七的女性，因此自我报告中最具吸引力的女性。
And so he went out with this one woman, and she was missing her front teeth.
于是他和一个女人出去了，她的门牙掉了。
He said, "Well call me picky, but missing her front teeth and she thinks she's on the top of the attractive list?" He was a little disappointed about that.
他说：“好吧，你可以说我很挑剔，但她门牙少了，她还以为自己是最有吸引力的人吗？”对此他有些失望。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
And women, of course, are disappointed; they meet a guy who they think is this physically fit, athletic guy, and he comes up, he's 300 pounds and overweight.
女性当然会感到失望。他们遇到了一个他们认为身体健康、运动能力强的人，当他出现时，他体重 300 磅，而且超重。
So people do find out.
所以人们确实发现了。
And there are ...
还有...
some Internet dating sites have kind of a vetting of the accuracy of some things.
一些互联网约会网站会对某些事情的准确性进行审查。
So some things you can look up through public records: does this guy have a criminal record, for example.
所以有些事情你可以通过公共记录查找：例如，这个人是否有犯罪记录。
Is he on a sexual offenders website?
他是否访问过性犯罪网站？
So there's some things you can verify, but what I tell people is you really have to meet the person and interact, because the ...
所以有些事情你可以验证，但我告诉人们的是你真的必须与这个人见面并互动，因为......
in part because of the deception, but also because what happens with Internet dating is that the photograph ...
部分原因是欺骗，但也因为网上约会发生的情况是照片......
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
What happens with Internet dating is that the photograph tends to overwhelm all the other cues, and all the other cues are written statements.
网络约会的情况是，照片往往会压倒所有其他线索，而所有其他线索都是书面陈述。
And we weren't really evolved to process written statements, but we were evolved to respond to physical cues, and men tend to attend to the visual cues much more than women.
我们并不是真正进化来处理书面陈述的，而是进化来对身体线索做出反应的，而男性比女性更倾向于关注视觉线索。
So women in their mate selection, they have olfactory cues.
所以女性在择偶时，她们有嗅觉线索。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
So what does the guy sound like?
那么这个家伙听起来是什么样的呢？
His vocal qualities?
他的声音素质？
That's auditory cues, but olfactory cues, what does he smell like?
那是听觉线索，但嗅觉线索，他闻起来像什么？
And so women have a more acute sense of smell than men do.
因此，女性的嗅觉比男性更敏锐。
And so if the guy doesn't smell right, even if he embodies all these other qualities women want, that's a deal breaker.
因此，如果这个男人闻起来不对劲，即使他体现了女性想要的所有其他品质，这也会破坏交易。
And so I encourage people, just stop with the 100 texts back and forth, or messaging, and meet a person for a cup of coffee and interact, and then you'll get a more accurate bead on the person.
因此，我鼓励人们停止 100 条来回的短信或消息，与一个人见面喝杯咖啡并互动，然后你就会更准确地了解这个人。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
And then, of course, some qualities you can't assess even with a half-hour interaction; you can tell a lot.
当然，有些品质即使通过半小时的互动也无法评估；你可以讲很多。
But things like emotional stability are things that have to be assessed over time.
但像情绪稳定性这样的事情必须随着时间的推移进行评估。
And so one of the things that I advise people to do, and I'm not in the advice-giving business, but people ask all the time if they find out what I study; they say, "Well, I've got this problem, can you give me advice?" But one of the things to assess things like emotional stability, which is absolutely critical in long-term mating, is to do something like go on a trip together, take a vacation where you're even in an unfamiliar environment where you have to cope with things that you're not familiar with.
因此，我建议人们做的一件事是，我不是从事提供建议的行业，但人们总是问他们是否了解我的研究内容；他们说：“好吧，我遇到了这个问题，你能给我建议吗？”但评估情绪稳定性等对长期交配绝对至关重要的事情之一就是一起去旅行、去度假，即使在陌生的环境中，你也必须应对不熟悉的事情。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
And as opposed to an environment where it's very predictable, and so you get a greater exposure because one of the hallmarks of emotional instability is how they respond to stress.
与情绪非常可预测的环境相反，因此您会受到更大的影响，因为情绪不稳定的标志之一是他们对压力的反应方式。
So emotionally unstable people tend to have a long latency to return to baseline after a stressful event.
因此，情绪不稳定的人在经历压力事件后往往需要很长时间才能恢复到基线状态。
And so this is the sort of information you can't get on a coffee date; you can only get by assessing it over time.
所以这是你在咖啡约会中无法获得的信息；你只能通过一段时间的评估来获得。
PART 1 OF 4 ENDS Andrew Huberman:
第 1 部分（共 4 部分）结束 Andrew Huberman：
As somebody whose laboratory studies stress and tools to combat stress, that's great.
作为一个实验室研究压力和对抗压力工具的人，这很棒。
It's yet more incentive for people to develop self-regulatory mechanisms for themselves.
这更加激励人们为自己建立自我监管机制。
I'm guessing many of the features of deception in this context were present long before Internet dating.
我猜想这种情况下的许多欺骗特征早在互联网约会出现之前就已经存在了。
And so it's somewhat dark to think about, but is deception built in to this dance that we call mate selection?
所以想想有点黑暗，但是这种我们称之为择偶的舞蹈中是否存在欺骗呢？
And has it been built in for a long time, or is this something that you think has emerged more as people are approaching each other through these electronic web-based mediums?
它是否已经存在很长时间了，还是您认为随着人们通过这些基于网络的电子媒介相互接触而越来越多地出现？
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
Yeah, some forms of deception have been there for a long time over human evolutionary history.
是的，某些形式的欺骗在人类进化史上已经存在很长时间了。
So one form of deception which we haven't mentioned is deception about whether you're interested in a long-term committed relationship or a short-term hookup.
因此，我们没有提到的一种欺骗形式是欺骗你是否对长期忠诚的关系或短期的勾搭感兴趣。
And so there's deception about that, especially on the part of men.
所以这里面存在欺骗，尤其是对于男人来说。
So men who are interested — like on Tinder, it has been reported, although Tinder denies this, there's been reported that something like 30% of the men on Tinder are either married or in long-term committed relationships, and they're looking for something on the side.
据报道，对 Tinder 感兴趣的男性，尽管 Tinder 否认了这一点，但据报道，Tinder 上大约 30% 的男性要么已婚，要么处于长期忠诚的关系中，他们正在寻找副业。
But in terms of successfully attracting a mate, the overdisplay that, "Hey, I'm interested in just a short-term hookup, I'm interested in sex, so I want to have sex right now, let's just go back to my apartment." These are very ineffective tactics.
但就成功吸引伴侣而言，过度展示是：“嘿，我只对短期勾搭感兴趣，我对性感兴趣，所以我现在就想发生性关系，我们回我的公寓去吧。”这些都是非常无效的策略。
And so effective tactics for men are often displaying cues to long-term interest.
因此，对男性来说有效的策略往往会体现出长期利益的暗示。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
And of course that's effective for a woman who's seeking a long-term interest, and so that's a deception.
当然，这对于追求长远利益的女性来说是有效的，所以这是一种欺骗。
So we find in our studies of deception that men tend to exaggerate the depths of their feelings for a woman, exaggerate how similar they are and how aligned they are in their values and religious orientations and political values, and so forth.
因此，我们在欺骗研究中发现，男性倾向于夸大他们对女性的感情深度，夸大他们之间的相似程度以及他们在价值观、宗教取向和政治价值观等方面的一致性。
And so I think there's deception around that.
所以我认为这其中存在欺骗。
And I think that's probably an evolutionarily recurrent form of deception that women have defenses against, by the way.
顺便说一句，我认为这可能是一种在进化上反复出现的欺骗形式，女性对此有防御能力。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
But I think that modern Internet dating opens the door for certain types of deception that, at a minimum, were difficult to accomplish, ancestrally.
但我认为现代互联网约会为某些类型的欺骗打开了大门，这些欺骗至少在祖先看来是很难实现的。
So things like photoshopping — it wasn't available back then.
所以像 Photoshop 这样的东西在当时是不可用的。
Plus, we evolved in the context of small group living, where you not only had your own personal observations of someone's qualities, you had also your relatives, your friends, your allies, the social reputation that someone had.
另外，我们是在小群体生活的背景下进化的，在那里你不仅有自己对某人品质的个人观察，还有你的亲戚、你的朋友、你的盟友，以及某人所拥有的社会声誉。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
And these are all critical sources of information that are less available in modern environments because people migrate, they move from place to place, they can close down one Internet profile and put up another, or they can have six going simultaneously.
这些都是重要的信息来源，但在现代环境中很难获得，因为人们会迁移，从一个地方移动到另一个地方，他们可以关闭一个互联网配置文件并建立另一个，或者他们可以同时拥有六个互联网配置文件。
So the modern environment opens up the door for forms of deception that weren't available, or weren't available to the same degree, ancestrally.
因此，现代环境为各种形式的欺骗打开了大门，而这些欺骗在祖先时期是无法实现的，或者在同等程度上是无法实现的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I see, very interesting.
我明白了，非常有趣。
Would you mind touching on some of the features that are selected for in terms of sexual partner choice?
您介意谈谈在性伴侣选择方面所选择的一些特征吗？
We talked a little bit about mate choice, but in terms of sexual partner choice, are there any good studies exploring what people are selecting for, or is it that they are both just in a state of pure hypothalamic drive — I'm a neuroscientist, after all — and therefore it's hard to re-create in the laboratory?
我们讨论了一些关于择偶的问题，但就性伴侣的选择而言，是否有任何好的研究来探索人们的选择，或者他们都只是处于纯粹的下丘脑驱动状态——毕竟我是一名神经科学家——因此很难在实验室中重现？
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
Well no, we do know something about that.
嗯，不，我们确实对此有所了解。
And we know something about how the preferences for a sex partner differ from preference for long-term mate.
我们知道对性伴侣的偏好与对长期伴侣的偏好有何不同。
There is overlap, of course, but one thing is physical appearance.
当然，有重叠之处，但有一件事是外表。
So physical appearance for women is important in long-term mating, not as important as it is for men, but it becomes more important in short-term mating, and so is the guy good-looking?
所以外貌对于女性来说在长期的交配中很重要，不像男性那么重要，但是在短期的交配中就变得更加重要，那么这个男人好看吗？
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
So those physical attributes are more important for women.
所以这些身体特征对于女性来说更为重要。
They remain important for men, physical appearance, in short-term mating.
在短期交配中，它们对于男性、外貌仍然很重要。
But with the footnote that men are willing to drop their standards in short-term mating.
但脚注表明，男性愿意在短期交配中放弃标准。
If it's low commitment, low risk, just sex without entangling commitments, women are more likely to prioritize what I call bad-boy qualities.
如果是低承诺、低风险、只是性行为而没有纠缠的承诺，那么女性更有可能优先考虑我所说的坏男孩品质。
So guys who are very self-confident, guys who are strut guys who are a little arrogant, guys who are risk-taking, guys who defy conventions.
所以，那些非常自信的人，那些趾高气扬但有点傲慢的人，那些敢于冒险的人，那些藐视惯例的人。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
Women are more attracted to those guys in short-term mating than long-term mating.
与长期交配相比，女性更容易被短期交配的男性所吸引。
And whereas in long-term mating, they go more for the good-dad qualities.
而在长期交配中，他们更倾向于表现出好爸爸的品质。
Is this guy dependable?
这家伙可靠吗？
Is he going to be a good father to my children?
他会成为我孩子们的好父亲吗？
And then also in short-term mating, women use that mate-copying heuristic.
然后，在短期交配中，女性也会使用复制配偶的启发法。
That is if there are thousands of other women who find them attractive, women find them attractive, and so that's why you have the groupie phenomenon.
也就是说，如果有成千上万的其他女性发现她们有吸引力，女性也发现她们有吸引力，所以这就是为什么会有追星族现象。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
So with the rock stars for example, there are thousands of screaming women, all of whom want to sleep with this famous rock star, and they use that as information.
以摇滚明星为例，有成千上万的尖叫女性，她们都想和这位著名的摇滚明星上床，她们以此为信息。
They find if you took a still photo of some of these rock stars and asked women how attractive the guy is versus tell him he's a famous rock star and showed the thousands of women screaming at him, they judge him entirely differently in terms of his attractiveness, and this is an important point, that women's attraction to men is more context specific and varies more across contexts than men's attraction to women, and so I'll give you just an example of that.
他们发现，如果你给这些摇滚明星拍一张静态照片，然后问女人这个男人有多有吸引力，而不是告诉他他是一位著名的摇滚明星，并向他展示成千上万的女人对他尖叫，他们对他的吸引力的评价完全不同，这是很重要的一点，女人对男人的吸引力比男人对女人的吸引力更具有特定的背景，并且在不同的背景下变化更大，所以我只给你举一个例子。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
This is a female colleague of mine — went to a conference, an academic conference, and she found the organizer of this conference to be really attractive.
这是我的一个女同事——去参加一个会议，一个学术会议，她发现这个会议的组织者非常有吸引力。
And then saw him six months later and wondered, "Well, what was I thinking?
六个月后见到他并想知道，“嗯，我在想什么？
He doesn't seem very attractive at all." And what it was is when he was the organizer, he was at the center of the attention structure.
他看起来一点也不有吸引力。”当他作为组织者时，他处于注意力结构的中心。
He was the guy up on stage directing everybody, and everyone was attending to him.
他是舞台上指挥每个人的人，每个人都在关注他。
And then when he was just a normal presenter at a conference, he didn't command the attention structure like he did in that, when he was the organizer.
然后，当他只是会议上的普通演讲者时，他并没有像他作为组织者时那样控制注意力结构。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
And so this is just an illustration of how circumstance-dependent women's mate attraction is for guys.
所以这只是一个例子，说明女性对男性的伴侣吸引力是如何取决于环境的。
It depends on his status, the number of women that are attracted to him, the attention structure, is, how he interacts with a puppy or a baby, if he's ignoring a baby in distress, or positively interacting with a young child.
这取决于他的地位、被他吸引的女性数量、注意力结构、他如何与小狗或婴儿互动、他是否忽视了处于困境的婴儿，或者与年幼的孩子积极互动。
All these things, whereas for men, it almost doesn't matter.
所有这些事情，而对于男人来说，几乎无关紧要。
Context is more irrelevant.
上下文更无关紧要。
They're honing in on the specific psychophysical cues that the woman is displaying and context be damned.
他们正在研究这名女性所表现出的具体心理生理线索，而不管背景如何。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Very interesting.
非常有趣。
Let's talk about infidelity in committed relationships.
让我们谈谈忠诚关系中的不忠。
What are some of the consistent findings around reasons for, and maybe even long-term consequences of infidelity for men and women?
关于男性和女性不忠的原因，甚至长期后果，有哪些一致的发现？
And this could be marriage or long-term partnership or infidelity of any kind, I suppose.
我想，这可能是婚姻、长期伙伴关系或任何形式的不忠。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm guessing it does happen.
我猜它确实会发生。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
Yeah, well, that's-
是的，嗯，那就是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
How frequent is it?
发生的频率如何？
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
Yeah, that's the interesting thing.
是的，这就是有趣的事情。
Well, how frequent it is is difficult to gauge because it's one of the forms of human conduct that people like to keep secret.
嗯，这种情况的发生频率很难衡量，因为这是人们喜欢保守秘密的人类行为形式之一。
So if you go back now, say, 70 years, to the classic Kinsey studies, the questions about infidelity were the questions that most people refused to answer, and when the question was brought up, caused more people to drop out of the study.
因此，如果你现在回到 70 年前，经典的金赛研究就会发现，关于不忠的问题是大多数人拒绝回答的问题，而当这个问题被提出时，导致更多的人退出研究。
And so that tells you something that, what do people conceal?
这告诉你，人们隐瞒了什么？
Infidelity, incest, murder ...
不忠、乱伦、谋杀……
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
There is a small handful of things that people universally want to conceal, and infidelity is one of them, but people do it.
人们普遍想要隐瞒一小部分事情，不忠就是其中之一，但人们却这样做了。
And so Kinsey estimated 26% of married women committed an infidelity at some point during their marriage, and about 50% of men.
因此金赛估计，26% 的已婚女性在婚姻期间的某个时刻曾有过不忠行为，而男性的这一比例约为 50%。
Other studies have given lower figures.
其他研究给出的数字较低。
And so the exact figures bounce around, depending on anonymity provided and how comfortable they are with the interviewer, and so forth.
因此，具体数字会有所不同，具体取决于提供的匿名信息以及他们对面试官的适应程度等等。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And by infidelity, does that mean intercourse with somebody else?
不忠是否意味着与其他人发生性关系？
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
Yeah, yeah.
是啊，是啊。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So we're not talking about "emotional affairs"?
所以我们不是在谈论“感情问题”吗？
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
Right.
对。
Right.
正确的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We're talking about sex — sex with somebody other than their committed partner, unbeknownst to their partner?
我们谈论的是性——在他们的伴侣不知情的情况下，与他们忠诚的伴侣以外的人发生性关系？
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
Right.
对。
And there are other forms of infidelity which we could get into, including emotional infidelity and financial infidelity.
我们还可能陷入其他形式的不忠，包括情感不忠和财务不忠。
But here, we're just talking about, for the moment, sexual infidelity.
但在这里，我们暂时只讨论性不忠。
And the interesting thing about sexual infidelity is that the sexes really differ fundamentally in the motives for committing infidelity.
关于性不忠的有趣之处在于，两性在不忠的动机上确实存在根本差异。
So for men, the primary motive, and these are on average sex differences.
所以对于男性来说，主要动机是平均性别差异。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
So whenever I talk about second, I'm talking about on average sex differences because there's overlap in the distributions.
因此，每当我谈论第二个时，我谈论的是平均性别差异，因为分布存在重叠。
So these are generalizations of which there are exceptions.
因此，这些都是概括，也有例外。
So for men, it's mainly a matter of sexual variety.
所以对于男性来说，这主要是性多样性的问题。
So about 70% of the men, it's "The opportunity presented itself.
因此，大约 70% 的男性认为，“机会本身就出现了。
I was out of town and I had this opportunity." So low-risk, low-cost pursuit of sexual variety, sexual novelty, is a key motivation for men.
我当时不在城里，但我有这个机会。”所以低风险、低成本地追求性的多样性、性的新鲜感，是男人的一个关键动机。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sorry to interrupt, I just want to ...
抱歉打扰了，我只是想...
So 70% of men that cheat, that's a primary cause?
那么 70% 的男人出轨，这是主要原因吗？
Or is it that 70% of men do cheat?
还是70%的男人都会出轨？
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
No, no, no. Of the men who cheat, 70%.
不，不，不。在出轨的男人中，70%。
Thank you for that clarification.
谢谢你的澄清。
Of the men who do cheat, 70% cite that as the key motive, the key reason why they committed an infidelity.
在出轨的男人中，70% 的人认为这是他们不忠的关键动机和主要原因。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Like why mountain climbers climb mountains — because they're there?
就像登山者为什么爬山一样——因为山在那里？
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
Right.
对。
Because they're there.
因为他们就在那里。
Well, the comedian, I think it was Chris Rock said, "Men are only as faithful as their opportunity."
好吧，喜剧演员，我想是克里斯·洛克说的，“男人的忠诚取决于他们的机会。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or how available their password on their phone is to their partner.
或者他们的伴侣如何获取他们手机上的密码。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
Right.
对。
Right.
正确的。
Yeah.
是的。
And that's an exaggeration.
这太夸张了。
But if you look at women, this just desire for pure novelty, sexual variety is much less of a motive.
但如果你观察一下女性，你就会发现，这种对纯粹新奇、性多样性的渴望就不是动机了。
But women who have affairs cite that they're unhappy with their primary relationship, emotionally unhappy or sexually unhappy, and typically both, and this may seem totally obvious that, "Well of course, people, if they're unhappy in the relationship, are more likely to stray." But in fact, it's not true for men.
但有外遇的女性表示，她们对自己的主要关系不满意，情绪上不开心或性上不开心，通常两者兼而有之，这似乎是完全显而易见的，“当然，如果人们在恋爱关系中不开心，他们就更有可能出轨。”但事实上，对于男人来说却并非如此。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
So if you compare men who are happy with their marriage and men who are not happy with their marriage, there's no difference in their infidelity rates.
因此，如果你比较对婚姻满意的男人和对婚姻不满意的男人，他们的不忠率没有差异。
I think it goes down to that issue of motive for seeking variety.
我认为这可以归结为寻求多样性的动机问题。
So now, why do women do it?
那么现在，女性为什么要这样做呢？
Because it's a risky endeavor.
因为这是一项有风险的尝试。
She risks her long-term mate or losing a long-term mate.
她冒着失去长期伴侣或失去长期伴侣的风险。
It's risky in terms of reputational damage for both sexes.
对于两性来说，这都会带来声誉受损的风险。
So it's a risky thing.
所以这是一件有风险的事情。
Why do women do it?
女人为什么要这么做？
And there are two competing hypotheses, at least two, but there are two primary competing hypotheses in the evolutionary literature.
有两个相互竞争的假设，至少有两个，但在进化文献中有两个主要的相互竞争的假设。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
One is called the dual mating strategy hypothesis, where women are seeking to get resources and investment from one guy and good genes from another guy.
其中一种被称为双重交配策略假说，即女性寻求从一个男性那里获得资源和投资，并从另一个男性那里获得良好的基因。
So in principle, that can work.
所以原则上，这是可行的。
And initially, this wasn't a hypothesis original with me, this is Steve Gangestad, Randy Thornhill, and some others, Martin Hazelton, a former student of mine, have advocated this dual mating strategy hypothesis.
最初，这并不是我原创的假设，这是史蒂夫·甘斯塔德（Steve Gangestad）、兰迪·桑希尔（Randy Thornhill）和其他一些人，我以前的学生马丁·黑泽尔顿（Martin Hazelton）提出了这种双重交配策略假设。
And originally I endorsed it because the data seemed to support it, we can get into which data seemed to support it.
最初我支持它是因为数据似乎支持它，我们可以了解哪些数据似乎支持它。
But over time, I became more and more dubious about this hypothesis and instead have advocated what I call the mate switching hypothesis.
但随着时间的推移，我对这个假设越来越怀疑，转而主张所谓的择偶假设。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
And so if you look at a whole host of information around why women have affairs, it's not compatible with the dual mating strategy hypothesis and is compatible with the mate switching, that is women who are looking to either divest themselves from an existing mateship or trade up in the mating market to a mate who's more compatible with them or higher in mate value, or simply see whether they're sufficiently desirable so that it eases the transition into the mating pool or keep keeping a mate as a potential backup mate, what I call mate insurance.
因此，如果你查看有关女性出轨原因的大量信息，就会发现它与双重交配策略假设不相容，而与配偶转换相容，也就是说，女性希望要么从现有的伴侣关系中剥离自己，要么在交配市场上换一个与自己更兼容或伴侣价值更高的伴侣，或者只是看看自己是否足够有吸引力，以便轻松过渡到交配池，或者继续保留一个伴侣作为潜在的后备伴侣，我会怎么做？打电话给伴侣保险。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
So you have car insurance if something bad happens to your car, house insurance, we also have mate insurance, keeping someone.
所以如果你的车出了问题，你有汽车保险，房屋保险，我们也有配偶保险，保留某人。
One woman said, "Men are like soup, you always want to have one on the back burner."
一位女士说：“男人就像汤，你总是想把一个男人放在一边。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Interesting.
有趣。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
The best analogy or not, I'm not sure, but it captures something about why.
我不确定这是否是最好的类比，但它抓住了一些关于原因的信息。
So well, what evidence am I talking about?
那么，我在谈论什么证据呢？
Well, for one thing, women who have affairs, and this is about 70% of them, they-
嗯，一方面，有外遇的女性，这大约占其中的 70%，她们——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Again, sorry, I want to make sure people, of women who have affairs?
再次抱歉，我想确认一下，女性是否有外遇？
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
Yeah, of the women who have affairs.
是的，那些有外遇的女人。
So let's say, ballpark, Kinsey was, let's say, roughly right: 25, 26% of women will have affairs.
这么说吧，金赛的说法大概是正确的：25%、26% 的女性会发生外遇。
Let's just assume that he's right.
我们假设他是对的。
And we don't know exactly, but of the women who do have affairs, about 70% say they have fallen in love with their affair partner.
我们并不确切知道，但在有外遇的女性中，大约 70% 的人表示她们已经爱上了自己的外遇伴侣。
They become deeply emotionally involved with their affair partner.
他们与自己的外遇伴侣感情深厚。
And to me, if you're just trying to get good genes from a guy, that is the last thing you want to do is fall in love with them or get emotionally involved.
对我来说，如果你只是想从一个男人身上获得良好的基因，那么你最不想做的就是爱上他们或投入情感。
But it's very compatible if you want to switch mates.
但如果你想更换伴侣，它是非常兼容的。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
And so that's one piece of evidence that suggests that women, the mate switching function of infidelity is a more likely explanation.
因此，这一证据表明，女性不忠的配偶转换功能是一个更有可能的解释。
Now these two are not inherently incompatible hypotheses.
现在这两个假设并不是本质上不相容的。
In other words, it's possible that some women do pursue a dual mating strategy hypothesis, but there's other evidence that suggests, so for example, what are the actual rates of genetic cuckoldry?
换句话说，有些女性确实可能追求双重交配策略假设，但还有其他证据表明，例如，遗传通奸的实际比率是多少？
Well, in the modern environment, anyway, they're pretty low.
嗯，无论如何，在现代环境中，它们是相当低的。
It turns out they're 2 to 3%.
结果是 2% 到 3%。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Could you just explain for the audience what genetic cuckoldry is?
您能为观众解释一下什么是基因通奸吗？
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
So this is where the man believes he is the genetic father of a child, but it turns out he's not, might be the mailman or the nextdoor neighbor or the guy she's having an affair with.
所以这就是这个男人相信他是一个孩子的遗传父亲，但事实证明他不是，可能是邮递员或隔壁邻居或与她有染的人。
So mistaken paternity and genetic cuckoldry is just one way to capture the-
因此，错误的亲子关系和基因通奸只是捕获-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Named after the cuckoo bird, right?
以杜鹃鸟命名，对吗？
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
Named after the cuckoo bird, yes.
是的，以杜鹃鸟命名。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Who sneaks its eggs into the nest of the other, rolls — destroys the future offspring of the bird, and then basically offloads all the work onto another father.
谁把它的蛋偷偷地放进另一个鸟的巢里，滚动——摧毁了鸟儿未来的后代，然后基本上把所有的工作都卸给了另一个父亲。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
Parasitizes.
寄生。
Yeah, the parental investment of different bird species.
是的，不同鸟类的父母投资。
So anyway, so I think that, and there's other sources of evidence that I think points.
无论如何，我认为是这样，而且我认为还有其他证据来源。
So one of the sources of evidence that initially seemed to support the dual mating strategy hypothesis was ovulation shifts.
因此，最初似乎支持双重交配策略假说的证据来源之一是排卵变化。
So in other words, it looked like, from the early studies, that when women are ovulating, these are among non-pill-taking women, women not on a hormonal contraceptives, that they experienced a preference shift toward more men who were masculine and symmetrical, which were hypothesized markers for good genes, and there's an explanation for that.
换句话说，从早期的研究来看，当女性排卵时，这些不服用避孕药的女性、不服用激素避孕药的女性，她们经历了对更多男性化和对称的男性的偏好转变，这些男性被认为是良好基因的标志，对此有一个解释。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
But it turns out the effects of ovulation on women's mate preferences are far weaker than the initial studies looked like.
但事实证明，排卵对女性择偶的影响远弱于最初研究的结果。
And in fact, some larger scale studies have failed to replicate them entirely.
事实上，一些更大规模的研究未能完全复制它们。
And so that was one of the key sources of evidence, these ovulation shifts, that women were going after good genes because it's only when she's ovulating and she can get pregnant by having sex with another man that it would make sense for her to have sex with another man.
因此，排卵期变化是证据的关键来源之一，表明女性正在追求良好的基因，因为只有当她排卵并且可以通过与另一个男人发生性关系而怀孕时，她与另一个男人发生性关系才有意义。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
And there was even some early evidence that women were timing their affairs, timing sex with their affair partners to coincide with when they were ovulating.
甚至有一些早期证据表明，女性会安排她们的婚外情、与她们的婚外情伴侣发生性行为的时间与她们的排卵时间一致。
But as I said, some of these subsequent studies have failed to replicate these early findings, calling into question the dual mating strategy notion.
但正如我所说，其中一些后续研究未能复制这些早期发现，使人们对双重交配策略概念产生了质疑。
And so I think I've shifted my views on this and now endorse the mate switching hypothesis as a more likely explanation for why most women have affairs.
所以我想我已经改变了对此的看法，现在支持换偶假说，作为大多数女性发生外遇的更可能的解释。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, the way you describe this makes me wonder if, when, of the women that have affairs, do those affairs tend to be more long-lasting than the affairs that men have?
好吧，你描述这一点的方式让我想知道，在有外遇的女性中，这些外遇是否会比男性的外遇更持久？
Because the way you described it is men are seizing an opportunity, it's a carpe diem type approach to infidelity, and women potentially, on average, are capitalizing on something that is longer term.
因为你所描述的方式是男性正在抓住机会，这是一种及时行乐类型的不忠方式，而女性平均而言可能正在利用更长期的东西。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Now, of course, if they're doing this around ovulation, then it would constrain the amount of times they would need to see or have sex with this other person that they're not married to.
当然，如果他们在排卵期这样做，那么他们需要与未婚人士见面或发生性关系的次数就会受到限制。
But is there any evidence that women have more ongoing affairs and men have more transient affairs?
但有没有证据表明女性有更多持续性的外遇，而男性有更多短暂的外遇呢？
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
Yes.
是的。
Yeah, there is.
是的，有。
And so if you look at people who have affairs, there's a sex difference there.
因此，如果你观察有外遇的人，就会发现其中存在性别差异。
So women tend to have affairs with one person and become emotionally involved with that one person over time.
因此，女性往往会与一个人发生外遇，并随着时间的推移而与那个人产生情感上的纠缠。
Men who have affairs tend to have affairs with a larger number of affair partners.
有外遇的男性往往会与更多的外遇对象发生外遇。
And so which then by definition can't be long last.
因此，根据定义，这种情况不会持续太久。
You can't have the long-term affairs with six different partners
你不可能与六个不同的伴侣保持长期的关系
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, unless he's juggling multiple phone accounts or something.
是的，除非他同时使用多个电话帐户或其他什么。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
Right, right, right, and some men try to do that, but I think it could be very taxing.
对，对，对，有些人试图这样做，但我认为这可能会非常费力。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Well, and in this day and age, it's easier to meet more people by virtue of online communications, but it's also easier to get caught.
嗯，在当今时代，通过在线交流更容易结识更多的人，但也更容易被抓住。
Meaning, it's harder to conceal interactions.
这意味着，隐藏交互更加困难。
Everything's in the cloud anyway.
无论如何，一切都在云端。
A good friend of mine who's a former very high level in special operations said, "Anything that's not in your head and only in your head is available for others to find, should they want it." And I think that's largely true.
我的一位好朋友曾在特种部队担任过高级职务，他说：“任何不在你脑子里、只有在你脑子里的东西，只要其他人想要，都可以找到。”我认为这基本上是正确的。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
Yeah, and phone information, text messages, and people are very good at hacking into their partner's phones, computers.
是的，电话信息、短信，人们非常擅长侵入伴侣的电话、电脑。
And then also there are video cameras everywhere.
而且到处都有摄像机。
So sneaking off to a quiet restaurant.
于是偷偷溜到一家安静的餐厅。
There are probably eight video cameras that can record you walking in and out of that restaurant.
可能有八个摄像机可以记录您进出那家餐厅的情况。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Everything can be found.
一切都可以找到。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm certain of that.
我确信这一点。
You mentioned emotional affairs and financial infidelity as well.
您还提到了情感问题和经济不忠。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I had a girlfriend once who as an early date discussion said, "Not that I get the impression that you are, but I want to be very clear." She said that, "You are not emotionally, physically, or financially tied to any other women." And I thought it was very interesting that now you bring up a financial infidelity.
我曾经有一个女朋友，在一次早期约会讨论中，她说：“并不是说我的印象是你，但我想非常清楚。”她说，“你在情感上、身体上或经济上都与任何其他女性没有联系。”我认为现在你提出财务不忠问题非常有趣。
She's quite happily partnered now, and not with me, but it's interesting — it's the first time I heard anyone spell it out that way as a list, almost like specific aims in a grant.
她现在很愉快地合作，而不是和我合作，但这很有趣——这是我第一次听到有人以清单的方式将其拼写出来，几乎就像拨款中的具体目标一样。
What is emotional infidelity?
什么是情感不忠？
What is financial infidelity?
什么是财务不忠？
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
Yeah, yeah.
是啊，是啊。
Well this is a very smart woman to tap into all three.
嗯，这是一个非常聪明的女人，可以利用这三个方面。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Indeed she is.
确实她是。
Yeah.
是的。
Indeed she is.
确实她是。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
And I assumed you gave honest responses to all of those three questions?
我假设你对所有这三个问题都给出了诚实的回答？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
As I recall I did, but as we now know ...
我记得我做到了，但我们现在知道......
Well, you can ask her at some point.
嗯，你可以找个时间问问她。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
Right.
对。
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm happy to provide you her information.
我很高兴向您提供她的信息。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
Well, and there's self-deception in the service of deception is another issue.
好吧，为了欺骗而自我欺骗是另一个问题。
So emotional infidelity is basically exactly what it sounds like.
所以情感不忠基本上就是它听起来的样子。
It's falling in love with someone else, becoming psychologically close to someone else, sharing intimate or private information with someone else, that's what I mean by emotional infidelity.
它是爱上别人，在心理上与别人接近，与别人分享亲密或私人信息，这就是我所说的情感不忠。
And one of the hallmarks of a study done by a former student of mine, Barry Kuhle; it was very clever I thought.
我以前的学生巴里·库勒（Barry Kuhle）所做的一项研究的标志之一是：我认为这非常聪明。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
He analyzed, there used to be this reality TV show called "Cheaters," where they would hire detectives, and when the detective would, say, follow someone to a hotel room, they'd call up the partner and say, "Your husband just walked into the hotel room with someone else.
他分析说，以前有一个真人秀节目叫《骗子》，他们会聘请侦探，当侦探说跟踪某人到酒店房间时，他们会打电话给搭档说：“你丈夫刚刚和别人走进酒店房间。
Would you like to come down to the hotel and confront him?" And a certain percentage of people would confront.
你愿意到酒店来和他对质吗？”一定比例的人会对抗。
And what he analyzed, so he analyzed all these episodes of this show called "Cheaters," and what he examined was the verbal interrogations when people confronted their partners.
他分析的内容，所以他分析了这个名为“骗子”的节目的所有这些情节，他检查的是人们面对伴侣时的口头审讯。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
And when men confronted their partners, the first question they want to know is, "Did you fuck him?" Women, their first question was, "Do you love her?" And so this captures that difference between a sexual infidelity and emotional infidelity.
当男人面对他们的伴侣时，他们想知道的第一个问题是：“你操过他吗？”女人，第一个问题是：“你爱她吗？”因此，这体现了性不忠和情感不忠之间的区别。
And also captures another sex difference when it comes to sexual jealousy, where men tend to be more focused on the sexual components of the infidelity because those are what compromise his paternity certainty that he's actually the genetic father of whatever offspring ensue, whereas love is a cue to ...
当涉及到性嫉妒时，还捕捉到了另一个性别差异，男性往往更关注不忠的性成分，因为这些因素会损害他的亲子关系确定性，即他实际上是后代的遗传父亲，而爱情则是......
"Do you love her?" That's a cue that he's going to leave you, the woman, for another woman.
“你爱她吗？”这是一个暗示，他会为了另一个女人而离开你这个女人。
It's a cue to the long-term loss of that investment and commitment from that partner.
这是该合作伙伴的投资和承诺的长期损失的暗示。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
And so the sexes seem to differ in which aspects of the infidelity, with women were attuned to or more upset by the emotional infidelity, men, more by the sexual infidelity.
因此，性别在不忠的哪些方面似乎有所不同，女性更容易受到情感上的不忠，或者更容易受到情感上的不忠的困扰，而男性则更容易受到性上的不忠的影响。
Now, financial infidelity has been explored much less.
现在，人们对财务不忠的探讨要少得多。
But in my new book, "When Men Behave Badly," I have a section on financial infidelity where I summarize all the research that has been done.
但在我的新书《当男人行为不当时》中，我有一个关于财务不忠的章节，我总结了所有已完成的研究。
And I was flabbergasted by the percentage of people who do things like have credit cards that their spouse doesn't know about, keep secret bank accounts, have the credit card bills mailed to their office rather than their home, have basically resources and expenditures of pooled resources that they keep from their partner, and both sexes do it.
令我惊讶的是，有多少人会做一些事情，比如拥有配偶不知道的信用卡、保留秘密银行账户、将信用卡账单邮寄到办公室而不是家里、基本上拥有不向伴侣透露的资源和支出，而且男女都会这样做。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
And the percentages vary from study to study, but they range from 30 to 60% of all people who are keeping financial information from their spouse in one way or another.
不同研究的比例有所不同，但以某种方式向配偶隐瞒财务信息的人中，有 30% 到 60% 不等。
It could be the woman's out buying designer purses or designer handbags, it could be the guy is out going to strip clubs or taking his affair partner to restaurants and doesn't want those charges to show up on a jointly held credit card.
可能是女方出去购买名牌钱包或名牌手袋，也可能是男方出去去脱衣舞俱乐部或带他的外遇伴侣去餐馆，并且不希望这些费用出现在共同持有的信用卡上。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
So financial infidelity is critical, and then even things like diverting pooled resources to one set of genetic relatives versus another set is another thing that people tend to keep secret.
因此，财务不忠至关重要，甚至将汇集的资源转移到一组遗传亲属而不是另一组遗传亲属身上，也是人们倾向于保守秘密的另一件事。
So there are forms of financial infidelity as well.
因此，财务不忠也有多种形式。
So yeah, infidelity, you're absolutely ...
所以是的，不忠，你绝对是......
it's a great question because it shouldn't be confined to sexual infidelity, which is what most people think about, but also emotional and financial.
这是一个很好的问题，因为它不应该局限于性不忠（这是大多数人的想法），而且还包括情感和经济上的不忠。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
Interestingly, if you ask people, "What do you mean?
有趣的是，如果你问人们：“你的意思是什么？
What is infidelity in a marriage?" Men tend to say, "Well, it's obvious, it's that she had sex with someone else." That's infidelity.
什么是婚姻中的不忠？”男人往往会说：“嗯，很明显，她和别人发生了性关系。”这就是不忠。
Whereas women are more likely to have a broader definition of infidelity.
而女性对不忠的定义可能更广泛。
They will cite things like emotional infidelity, financial infidelity as part of the definition, whereas men have that more narrow definition.
她们会引用诸如情感不忠、财务不忠之类的东西作为定义的一部分，而男性的定义则更为狭隘。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Interesting.
有趣。
I have a good friend who's a couples counselor, a clinical psychologist, and she told me something interesting that relates to this, which is that in cases of infidelity, oftentimes some of the arguments between couples boil down to whether or not contraception was used or not; that becomes a key feature.
我有一个好朋友，是一名夫妻咨询师，一名临床心理学家，她告诉我一些与此相关的有趣事情，那就是在不忠的情况下，夫妻之间的一些争论往往归结为是否使用避孕措施；这成为一个关键特征。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And she always thought that that was homing in on a detail which, of course, is an important detail as it relates to both paternity issues and pregnancy, but also disease.
她一直认为这是针对一个细节，当然，这是一个重要的细节，因为它既涉及亲子问题和怀孕，也涉及疾病。
But as we're talking about all this, it makes me think that this may have deeper evolutionary roots further down in the brain, as we say in neuroscience literature.
但当我们谈论这一切时，这让我想到这可能在大脑的更深处有更深层的进化根源，正如我们在神经科学文献中所说的那样。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
Yeah.
是的。
And using a condom versus not using a condom, not using is a more intimate act, in a way; you were literally physically more intimate with someone else than if you do use a condom.
使用安全套与不使用安全套相比，在某种程度上，不使用是一种更亲密的行为；实际上，与使用安全套相比，您与其他人在身体上更加亲密。
But whether evolutionary roots to this, I don't know.
但我不知道这是否有进化根源。
Condoms are probably relatively recent in, or at least a widespread use of them, relatively recent in evolutionary times.
安全套可能是相对较新的出现，或者至少是它们的广泛使用，在进化时代相对较新。
So I doubt we have adaptations specifically for them.
所以我怀疑我们是否有专门针对他们的改编。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No. And presumably before condoms, one can only speculate because as we say when it comes to behavior, there's rarely a fossil record, but sometimes, there is.
不。大概在避孕套出现之前，人们只能推测，因为正如我们所说，当谈到行为时，很少有化石记录，但有时是有的。
It would be the withdrawal method of contraception, which a good friend of mine who studies ...
这就是避孕的撤退法，我的一个好朋友研究...
whose laboratory works on reproductive biology says the reason that's a poor choice of contraception is because it was designed not to work.
其研究生殖生物学的实验室表示，避孕方法选择不佳的原因是它的设计初衷是不起作用。
So note to those of trying to avoid unwanted pregnancy.
因此，请注意那些试图避免意外怀孕的人。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So we talked a little bit about status in terms of what men and women are selecting for for different types of relationships.
因此，我们讨论了一些关于男性和女性为不同类型的关系选择什么的地位问题。
Is there anything else about status that you find particularly interesting, and what men are finding attractive besides these waist-to-hip ratios and quality of potential mothers, and so forth.
除了这些腰臀比和潜在母亲的素质等等之外，还有什么关于地位的事情你觉得特别有趣，以及男人认为什么有吸引力？
Are there any hidden gems in the literature around this that I might not have heard of?
与此相关的文献中是否有我可能没有听说过的隐藏宝石？
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
Well, yeah.
嗯，是的。
So you mean among things like sex differences in what leads to high status or-
所以你的意思是诸如性别差异之类导致高地位的因素或者-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
For instance, or perhaps things that are surprising in terms of what people are selecting for.
例如，或者可能是人们选择的令人惊讶的事情。
Do people even know what they're selecting for or is this all subconscious?
人们是否知道他们在选择什么，或者这都是潜意识的？
Any and all of those topics are of interest to me.
所有这些主题都是我感兴趣的。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
Yeah.
是的。
So well, to take them in reverse order, I think a lot of it is conscious, but some of it is certainly unconscious, or there are elements which are totally unconscious.
那么，如果按照相反的顺序来看，我认为其中很多是有意识的，但其中一些肯定是无意识的，或者有些元素是完全无意识的。
So I mentioned one earlier where a man looks at a woman, he's aware that he's attracted to her and attracted to her physical appearance, but he might not be aware of why.
所以我之前提到过，一个男人看着一个女人，他知道他被她吸引，被她的外表吸引，但他可能不知道为什么。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
We didn't evolve to be aware of why, just like with food preferences.
我们并没有进化到知道为什么，就像食物偏好一样。
We find certain things delectable and other things nauseating.
我们发现某些事物令人愉快，而另一些事物则令人恶心。
We don't understand the adaptive logic of why our food preferences exist and why we have them.
我们不明白我们的食物偏好为何存在以及我们为何拥有它们的适应性逻辑。
And the same is true with mating.
交配也是如此。
And so men find women with a low waist-to-hip ratio attractive, but they might not that they-
因此，男性认为腰臀比低的女性有吸引力，但他们可能并不认为——
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
...
...
attractive, but they might not ...
有吸引力，但他们可能不......
Rarely will they know, "Oh, low waist ratio is actually associated with higher fertility, lower endocrinological problems, lower age," et cetera.
他们很少会知道，“哦，低腰围比例实际上与更高的生育能力、更低的内分泌问题、更低的年龄有关”等等。
So, we're sometimes aware of what we want, but we are unaware of why we want it.
所以，我们有时知道自己想要什么，但不知道为什么想要它。
So, I think there are unconscious elements that ...
所以，我认为存在无意识的因素......
The whole topic of status and what leads to high status and low status, it's a topic I'm currently investigating.
关于地位的整个话题，以及是什么导致了高地位和低地位，这是我目前正在研究的一个话题。
Published a couple scientific articles on it.
发表了几篇关于它的科学文章。
But maybe we'll hold off on that for a future discussion.
但也许我们会推迟这个问题以供将来讨论。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
I'll mention one.
我会提到一个。
It intersects with mating in interesting ways in that higher status gives people the ability to choose from a wider pool of potential mates than they would if they have low status.
它以有趣的方式与交配相交叉，因为较高的地位使人们能够从比地位较低的人更广泛的潜在伴侣中进行选择。
And so, one of the reasons that people strive for status is because they have access to more desirable mates.
因此，人们争取地位的原因之一是因为他们可以获得更理想的伴侣。
Conversely, having desirable mates endows you with higher status.
相反，拥有理想的伴侣会让你拥有更高的地位。
And so, if you're a male, you have a very attractive woman on your arm, that leads to high status.
所以，如果你是一名男性，你手臂上有一个非常有吸引力的女人，这会带来很高的地位。
And so, there's a reciprocal link between status and mating, in that way.
因此，地位和交配之间存在着相互联系。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
There have been studies where, say, they pose a kind of unattractive guy — older, unattractive guy — and a stunningly beautiful woman as his girlfriend.
有研究表明，他们会选择一个不那么有吸引力的男人——年长、没有吸引力的男人——和一个极其美丽的女人作为他的女朋友。
And they say, "Well, what's this guy all about?" And they say, "Oh, he must be very high in status.
他们说：“这个家伙到底是怎么回事？”他们说：“哦，他的地位一定很高。
He must be very wealthy.
他一定非常富有。
He must have a lot going for him." Whereas, the reverse, people don't make the same attributions.
他一定有很多事情要做。”然而，相反，人们不会做出相同的归因。
And so, there is an interesting reciprocal link between status and mating success, where mating success leads to high status, and high status leads to more mating success.
因此，地位和交配成功之间存在着有趣的相互联系，交配成功会带来高地位，而高地位会带来更多的交配成功。
PART 2 OF 4 ENDS Andrew Huberman:
第 2 部分（共 4 部分）结束 Andrew Huberman：
So over and over again, there are these instances that you describe where the assessment of potential mate, sexual or long-term partnership, are being made in the contents of good statistical practices, looking at the choices of others as a readout of your own choices.
因此，您一遍又一遍地描述了这些实例，其中对潜在伴侣、性或长期伙伴关系的评估是在良好的统计实践的内容中进行的，将他人的选择视为您自己选择的读数。
This seems to be a theme that this is not being made in a very narrow context, but paying attention to what other people are paying attention to seems to come up again and again.
这似乎是一个主题，这不是在一个非常狭窄的背景下制作的，但关注其他人正在关注的内容似乎一次又一次地出现。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Slightly off-center from that, but still paying attention to what other people are paying attention to, what's known about jealousy in men versus women, and how frequent it is, how intense it is, and what people do with that jealousy?
稍微偏离中心，但仍然关注其他人在关注什么，对男性与女性的嫉妒有什么了解，它的频率有多高，它有多强烈，以及人们如何处理这种嫉妒？
We hear, or I've heard at some point, that a large fraction of homicides are the consequence of jealous lovers.
我们听说，或者我曾经听说过，很大一部分凶杀案是恋人嫉妒的结果。
That's the darkest angle of all this.
这是这一切中最黑暗的角度。
But, in evolutionary psychology context, what is jealousy?
但是，在进化心理学的背景下，什么是嫉妒？
Does it relate to paternity issues only?
是否仅与亲子关系有关？
What can you tell us about jealousy?
关于嫉妒，你能告诉我们什么？
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
Yeah.
是的。
It's a great set of questions.
这是一组很棒的问题。
When I first started studying jealousy, I reviewed all the prior publications on jealousy.
当我第一次开始研究嫉妒时，我回顾了之前所有关于嫉妒的出版物。
And at that time, jealousy was regarded as a sign of immaturity, a sign of insecurity, a sign of neurosis or pathology, or in some cases delusion.
在那个时候，嫉妒被认为是不成熟的标志、不安全感的标志、神经症或病态的标志，或者在某些情况下是妄想。
And what I argued, and do argue, is that jealousy is an evolved emotion that serves several adaptive functions, one of which you mentioned, is a paternity certainty function.
我认为，并且确实认为，嫉妒是一种进化的情感，具有多种适应性功能，其中你提到的一个功能是亲子关系确定性功能。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
But to back up a second, basically, once you have the evolution of long-term mating, long-term pair bonds, you're talking about, from a male perspective, investing a tremendous amount of resources in a woman and her children over years or decades, even with boomerang kids now, it may even go more than two decades.
但要支持第二个，基本上，一旦你有了长期交配、长期配对关系的进化，你正在谈论的是，从男性的角度来看，在几年或几十年的时间里，在一个女人和她的孩子身上投入大量的资源，即使是现在的回旋镖孩子，它甚至可能会持续二十多年。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Boomerang kids?
回旋镖孩子？
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sorry.
抱歉。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
Kids who leave home and then come back and live at home, because-
孩子们离开家然后又回来住在家里，因为——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That happens.
就会发生这种情况。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
Oh, yeah, that happens.
哦，是的，会发生这种情况。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I don't have children, so I don't know.
我没有孩子，所以我不知道。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
Oh, okay.
哦，好吧。
Yeah, no, that's a big thing.
是的，不，这是一件大事。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But if I do, I'll just expect that they'll come back at some point.
但如果我这样做了，我只会期望他们会在某个时候回来。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
They'll come back because they can't find a job, or they find it cheaper to live at the parents' house, or whatever.
他们会回来，因为他们找不到工作，或者他们发现住在父母家更便宜，或者其他原因。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, goodness.
哦，天哪。
I can't think of anything worse.
我想不出还有什么更糟糕的了。
I love my parents, but ...
我爱我的父母，但是……
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
I know.
我知道。
I know.
我知道。
I can't imagine it.
我无法想象。
But it happens, and it's happening more and more given the current economic situation.
但这种情况确实发生了，而且考虑到当前的经济形势，这种情况发生得越来越多。
Okay but, so once you have long-term mating, you need a defense to prevent or preserve the investment that you've made and are making in the long-term mateship.
好吧，但是，一旦你有了长期的伴侣关系，你就需要采取防御措施来防止或保留你在长期伴侣关系中已经做出和正在做出的投资。
And so, jealousy serves this mate-guarding function, if you will, or mate-retention function.
因此，嫉妒可以起到保护配偶的作用（如果你愿意的话），或者保留配偶的功能。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
So, in other words, one way of phrasing this is that we know that there are affairs, we know that people break up, they get divorced, but people have adaptations to want to hold onto their mates.
所以，换句话说，一种说法是，我们知道有外遇，我们知道人们分手、离婚，但人们有适应能力想要留住他们的伴侣。
And that's what jealousy's in part about.
这就是嫉妒的部分原因。
And so, jealousy gets activated when there are threats to that romantic relationship.
因此，当浪漫关系受到威胁时，嫉妒就会被激活。
And there are other forms of jealousy, like sibling jealousy, and so forth, but we're focusing on mating jealousy in this context.
还有其他形式的嫉妒，比如兄弟姐妹嫉妒等等，但我们在这种情况下关注的是交配嫉妒。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
So, now, what's interesting is that the threats to an ongoing valued romantic relationship come from many sources.
所以，现在有趣的是，对持续有价值的浪漫关系的威胁来自很多方面。
So, they could be you detect cues to your partner's infidelity, or cues of a lack, of an emotional distance between you and your partner.
因此，它们可能是您发现伴侣不忠的暗示，或者是您和伴侣之间缺乏情感距离的暗示。
You say, "I love you," to your partner, and your partner says, "Oh, I wonder how the hell the Knicks are doing this scoring season?" or whatever.
你对你的搭档说，“我爱你”，你的搭档说，“哦，我想知道尼克斯队这个赛季的得分表现怎么样？”或其他什么。
If you get an unreciprocated "I love you," is a bad cue.
如果你得到一个没有回应的“我爱你”，这是一个不好的暗示。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or some people are so tuned to this, if there's a half-millisecond delay ...
或者有些人对此很感兴趣，如果有半毫秒的延迟......
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They can detect delays in responses.
他们可以检测响应的延迟。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
Yes.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
Delays in responses.
响应延迟。
So, that's one set of cues, but then there's another set of interested mate poachers.
所以，这是一组线索，但还有另一组感兴趣的配偶偷猎者。
So, if you're mated to someone who's desirable, which many people are, other people still desire them, and so sometimes try to poach them or lure them away from you for a short-term sexual encounter or for a longer term relationship.
因此，如果你与一个令人向往的人（很多人都是如此）交配，其他人仍然渴望他们，所以有时会试图挖走他们或引诱他们离开你，以获得短期的性接触或长期的关系。
And so we have to be, jealousy motivates people to be attentive to potential mate poachers in their environment.
所以我们必须如此，嫉妒会促使人们留意周围环境中潜在的偷猎者。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
But even more subtle things like mate value discrepancies can trigger jealousy.
但更微妙的事情，比如配偶价值观的差异，也会引发嫉妒。
So, even if there are no mate poachers and no cues to infidelity, if a mate value discrepancy opens up in a relationship ...
因此，即使没有偷猎者，也没有不忠的迹象，如果一段关系中出现了择偶价值差异……
So, in the American system, like you're a six or an eight or a 10, and people generally pair off based on similarity in mate value.
所以，在美国的体系中，就像你是 6 岁、8 岁或 10 岁一样，人们通常会根据配偶价值的相似性进行配对。
So-
所以——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That tends to happen.
这往往会发生。
Sixes end up with sixes, sevens end up with sixes, plus or minus one.
六以六结束，七以六结束，加上或减去一。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
Yeah, yeah.
是啊，是啊。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
So, yeah.
所以，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And these are a somewhat subjective scale.
这些是一个有点主观的尺度。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
Okay.
好的。
Somewhat subjective, but there's still some consensus about these things.
有点主观，但对这些事情仍然有一些共识。
So, even colloquially, people say things like, "He's not good enough for you." Or, "I think you could do better," to people, and implicitly have a notion of relative mate value and discrepancies they're in.
因此，即使是通俗地说，人们也会说“他配不上你”。或者，对人们说“我认为你可以做得更好”，并含蓄地对相对的配偶价值和他们所处的差异有一个概念。
Okay, but discrepancies can open up where none previously existed.
好的，但是以前不存在的差异可能会出现。
So, you get fired from a job all of a sudden, and most people are very understanding and forgiving about that if it's not too long.
所以，当你突然被解雇时，如果时间不太长的话，大多数人都会非常理解和宽容。
But you go six months, eight months, people start having problems.
但六个月、八个月后，人们开始遇到问题。
Or if someone's career takes off, let's say a woman becomes a famous singer or actress, or a man does, career takes off, all of a sudden there's a mate value discrepancy, where you have access to a larger pool of potential mates and higher mate value potential mates.
或者，如果某人的事业腾飞，比如说一个女人成为了著名的歌手或演员，或者一个男人成为了著名的歌手或演员，或者一个男人，事业腾飞，突然之间就会出现择偶价值差异，你可以接触到更多的潜在伴侣和更高择偶价值的潜在伴侣。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
So, people are attentive to mate value discrepancies.
因此，人们很关注择偶价值的差异。
And so, jealousy can get activated even if there are no immediate threats to a relationship.
因此，即使关系没有受到直接威胁，嫉妒也会被激活。
But that the mate value discrepancy is a threat that looms on the horizon of the relationship, because we know statistically, the higher mate value person is more likely to have an affair and is more likely to dump the other person and trade up in the mating market.
但择偶价值差异是关系中隐现的威胁，因为我们从统计数据上知道，择偶价值较高的人更有可能发生外遇，更有可能抛弃对方并在交配市场上进行交易。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And when people find new partners for long-term relationships, do they tend to trade up?
当人们找到新的长期合作伙伴时，他们是否倾向于升级？
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
On average, yes, if the discrepancy is sufficiently large.
平均而言，是的，如果差异足够大的话。
So, there are costs associated with breaking up, divorcing, for example.
因此，分手、离婚等都会产生相关成本。
It's emotionally, financially; it's a costly thing.
这是情感上的、经济上的；这是一件代价高昂的事情。
And so, if you have a half a point mate value discrepancy, you're not going to see a lot of breakups.
因此，如果你们对伴侣的价值观有半点差异，你就不会看到很多分手。
But if you have larger mate value discrepancies, that's going to auger more for trading up in the mating market.
但如果配偶价值差异较大，那么在配偶市场上的交易就会更加顺利。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
Then you get into ...
然后你就进入...
so what jealousy is, it's an emotion that gets activated by these circumstances, and then what people do about it depends on what their options are.
那么什么是嫉妒，它是一种被这些情况激活的情绪，然后人们对此的反应取决于他们的选择。
And people do things that, in my published scientific work, I say range from vigilance to violence.
在我发表的科学著作中，我所说的人们所做的事情包括从警惕到暴力。
So, there's a whole spectrum of things.
所以，有各种各样的事情。
In fact, I've identified 19 different tactics that people use to deal with problems once they get jealous.
事实上，我已经确定了人们在嫉妒时用来处理问题的 19 种不同策略。
And one is increased vigilance and the other exchange-
一是提高警惕，二是交流——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Vigilance for the behavior of the mate.
对配偶的行为保持警惕。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
Yeah, vigilance for the behavior of the mate, and that can include stalking, following, hacking into iPhones or computers, monitoring the behavior of mate poachers, looking at eye contact between other men and your partner.
是的，对伴侣的行为保持警惕，这可能包括跟踪、跟踪、侵入 iPhone 或电脑、监控偷猎者的行为、观察其他男人和你的伴侣之间的眼神交流。
There's a whole suite of things that is involved in vigilance.
警惕涉及一整套事情。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
And then at the other extreme, and we can talk about things in between, but the other extreme is violence.
然后在另一个极端，我们可以谈论介于两者之间的事情，但另一个极端是暴力。
And so, in my new book, "When Men Behave Badly," I have a whole chapter on intimate partner violence.
因此，在我的新书《当男人行为不当时》中，我用了一整章来讨论亲密伴侣的暴力行为。
And this is, what I argue, and this is really unfortunate, and I'm not endorsing ...
这就是我所主张的，这真的很不幸，我不赞同......
It's illegal, it's bad, don't do it.
这是违法的，不好的，不要这样做。
But people engage in intimate partner violence.
但人们会参与亲密伴侣的暴力行为。
In America, something like 28 to 30% of all people who are married will experience intimate partner violence in their relationship.
在美国，大约 28% 到 30% 的已婚人士在他们的关系中经历过亲密伴侣的暴力行为。
So, it's not a trivial percentage.
所以，这不是一个微不足道的百分比。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And that violence is between the two partners.
这种暴力发生在两个伙伴之间。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
Between the two partners, yes.
在两个伙伴之间，是的。
There's also violence that gets directed to our potential mate poachers, but that's a somewhat separate issue.
还有一些暴力行为直接针对我们潜在的配偶偷猎者，但这是一个有点不同的问题。
But, one of the things that is functional about the violence is that it tends to reduce perceived mate value discrepancies.
但是，暴力的作用之一是它往往会减少感知到的配偶价值差异。
So, in other words, I'll say guys tend to engage in the violence more than women do, although some argue that there's more equality in the violence, but at a minimum, men tend to do more damage when they do the violence.
所以，换句话说，我想说的是，男性比女性更倾向于实施暴力，尽管有些人认为暴力更加平等，但至少，男性在实施暴力时往往会造成更大的伤害。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And when you're talking about violence, is this ever emotional violence?
当你谈论暴力时，这是情感暴力吗？
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
Yeah, there's that as well.
是的，还有那个。
And in fact, the two tend to be correlated.
事实上，两者往往是相关的。
So, in my studies of married couples, verbal violence is a good predictor of physical violence happening as well.
因此，在我对已婚夫妇的研究中，言语暴力也是身体暴力发生的一个很好的预测因素。
So, one thing that'll happen, just to give a concrete example, guys will start insulting their partner's appearance.
所以，会发生一件事，举个具体的例子，男人们会开始侮辱他们伴侣的外表。
"You're really looking ugly today.
“你今天的样子真的很难看。
Your thighs are heavy.
你的大腿很重。
You're not looking very good." So, they try to denigrate the woman's appearance, which is a key component of a woman's mate value.
你看起来不太好。”因此，他们试图诋毁女性的外表，而女性的外表是女性择偶价值的关键组成部分。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So, they're trying to adjust more closely the mate value discrepancy.
因此，他们正在尝试更紧密地调整配偶价值差异。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
Yeah, they're trying to reduce her self-perceived mate value.
是的，他们正试图降低她自我认知的伴侣价值。
So if, let's say, he's a six, she's an eight, and he can convince her that she's actually only a six, then she's going to be more likely to stay with him.
因此，如果他是六分，她是八分，并且他可以让她相信她实际上只有六分，那么她就更有可能和他在一起。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Very diabolical.
非常恶毒。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
It's terribly diabolical.
这是非常邪恶的。
But, the fact is, women don't feel good about themselves when they get beaten up by their partner.
但事实是，当女性被伴侣殴打时，她们的自我感觉并不好。
In fact, in the cases where it leaves physical evidence, women wear sunglasses or turtlenecks or cover up the bruises.
事实上，在留下物证的情况下，女性会戴上墨镜或高领毛衣或掩盖瘀伤。
It literally does lower the mate value of the woman by injuring her physical appearance.
它确实会损害女性的外表，从而降低女性的择偶价值。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And getting her to conceal herself.
并让她隐藏自己。
Stay home.
待在家里。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
Yeah, exactly.
是的，完全正确。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Et cetera.
等等。
Yeah.
是的。
Taking her out of the ...
带她离开...
literally reducing her visibility.
确实降低了她的能见度。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
Right.
对。
And that's actually one of the predictors of violence, is if he starts doing things other than violence, like cutting off her relationships with her friends and her family, trying to sequester her and prevent her from getting exposed to potential other partners.
这实际上是暴力的预测因素之一，如果他开始做暴力以外的事情，比如切断她与朋友和家人的关系，试图隔离她并阻止她接触潜在的其他伴侣。
And so, it is very diabolical but I think important to understand the potential functionality of intimate partner violence.
因此，这是非常邪恶的，但我认为了解亲密伴侣暴力的潜在功能很重要。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sorry to interrupt again, but I'm just so curious.
抱歉再次打扰，但我只是很好奇。
So, oftentimes my audience will say, "You interrupt too often," but I want to make sure that I don't miss an opportunity to ask you about the intimate partner violence in the other direction, female to male, where, stereotypically speaking, that the opportunity for physical violence is still there, but the idea in mind is that it would be more of a psychological nature.
所以，我的听众常常会说，“你打断得太频繁了”，但我想确保我不会错过任何机会向你询问另一个方向的亲密伴侣暴力，即女性对男性的暴力，从刻板印象来看，身体暴力的机会仍然存在，但我的想法是，这更多是一种心理性质的暴力。
Although I think there is evidence that some women beat their husbands, right?
虽然我认为有证据表明有些妇女殴打她们的丈夫，对吗？
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But I'm guessing it's not as frequent, or am I off?
但我猜它不那么频繁，或者我离开了？
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
Well, different studies ...
嗯，不同的研究...
So, it depends on whether you just simply count up acts or whether you look at the damage that's done.
因此，这取决于您是否只是简单地计算行为，或者您是否关注所造成的损害。
And as I mentioned, men tend to do more physical damage.
正如我所提到的，男性往往会造成更多的身体伤害。
So, there are shelters for battered women all over the country.
因此，全国各地都有受虐妇女庇护所。
As far as I know, there's one for battered men.
据我所知，有一个是为受虐者准备的。
Now, it may be, and this is partly true, that men are more ashamed if they get beaten up by their partner or clocked with a frying pan.
现在，这可能是，而且这在一定程度上是正确的，如果男人被伴侣殴打或用煎锅敲打，他们会更感到羞耻。
And it's possible, and there's evidence, that police don't take it as seriously.
有可能，而且有证据表明，警方并没有认真对待这件事。
So, there's one case that I reported in my book where a guy called the police, and his wife had clocked him with something, and police shows up and he says, "If she so much as broke a fingernail in this altercation, they'll charge you and not her." And so, there is a potential police bias in this.
所以，我在书中报道了一个案例，一个人报了警，他的妻子用某种东西对他进行了计时，警察出现了，他说，“如果她在这场争吵中弄断了指甲，他们就会指控你，而不是她。”因此，这可能存在警察偏见。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
And so, there may be underreporting of women beating up men as a consequence.
因此，女性殴打男性的情况可能会被低估。
Okay, but the motivations are often different.
好吧，但动机往往不同。
So, one is that male sexual jealousy will trigger him to attack his partner, and then she will use physical violence to defend herself.
所以，一种是男性的性嫉妒会引发他攻击他的伴侣，然后她会使用身体暴力来保护自己。
So, she might pick up a frying pan or a weapon of some sort to defend herself.
因此，她可能会拿起煎锅或某种武器来保护自己。
And so, the motivation is his sexual jealousy on his part, but self-defense on her part.
所以，动机是他的性嫉妒，但她的自卫。
And so, that accounts for some unknown percentage of the cases.
因此，这占了案件中未知比例。
And in some cases, it is women who were outraged when they discover their partner's been having sex with someone else, and infidelity of a sexual, financial, or emotional nature.
在某些情况下，当女性发现自己的伴侣与其他人发生性关系以及性、经济或情感方面的不忠时，她们会感到愤怒。
And so there is some female-to-male violence that absolutely occurs, but the reduction of a perceived mate value discrepancy is a key function from male perspective.
因此，肯定会发生一些女性对男性的暴力，但从男性的角度来看，减少感知的配偶价值差异是一个关键功能。
Now, again, not that he thinks about this; he's just angry and wants to hurt her.
现在，再说一次，他并不是在想这个；而是他在想这个。他只是生气并想伤害她。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
Okay, but here's one other thing that is really interesting about the intimate partner violence, and that's the specificity of it, depending on circumstances.
好吧，但是关于亲密伴侣暴力，还有另一件事非常有趣，那就是它的特殊性，具体取决于具体情况。
And namely, when the woman gets pregnant, she's more vulnerable to physical violence, and when the man suspects that he's not the father of that pregnancy, he's more likely to direct the violence toward blows to her abdomen.
也就是说，当女人怀孕时，她更容易受到身体暴力，而当男人怀疑自己不是怀孕的父亲时，他更有可能将暴力转向对她腹部的打击。
It's that specific.
就是这么具体。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wow.
哇。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
And so in that case, the function is, the hypothesized function is to terminate the pregnancy by a rival male as opposed to deterring the woman from committing an infidelity, or from leaving the relationship entirely.
因此，在这种情况下，假设的功能是终止竞争对手男性的怀孕，而不是阻止女性不忠或完全离开这段关系。
So, that's why one function of intimate partner violence is just sequestering the woman and keeping her all to himself.
因此，这就是为什么亲密伴侣暴力的功能之一就是隔离女性并让她独自一人。
So, it's both to prevent infidelity and to prevent defection.
所以，这既是为了防止不忠，也是为了防止叛逃。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I have a friend whose wife told me that, "If he cheats, I'll kill him." That's what she said.
我有一个朋友，他的妻子告诉我：“如果他出轨，我就杀了他。”她就是这么说的。
"But it's actually just much easier to keep him very, very busy." And that statement now leaps to mind because of what you're describing, that there are many tactics by which people can engage this effort to reduce the mate value discrepancy, not all of which are overtly violent.
“但实际上让他非常非常忙碌要容易得多。”现在，由于您所描述的内容，人们可以采取多种策略来减少配偶价值差异，因此这种说法立即浮现在脑海中，但并非所有策略都是公开的暴力。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But all of which are designed to constrain their behavior.
但所有这些都是为了约束他们的行为。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
Right, right.
对，对。
Yeah.
是的。
So, these would fall under what I would call mate retention tactics, only one or two of which fall under the violence category.
因此，这些都属于我所说的配偶保留策略，其中只有一两个属于暴力类别。
There are even within-partner psychological manipulations about these things.
甚至在合作伙伴内部也对这些事情进行心理操纵。
So, there are psychological manipulations about perceived mate value.
因此，存在着关于感知配偶价值的心理操纵。
"No one else would want you.
“没有人会想要你。
You're a loser." There's denigration of a partner within the relationship.
你是个失败者。”关系中存在对伴侣的诽谤。
Even feigning anger to make the partner feel guilty about, say, looking at someone else.
甚至假装生气，让伴侣感到内疚，比如看着别人。
So, there's all kinds of internecine warfare that goes on within relationships to manipulate perceptions of these things.
因此，在人际关系中存在着各种自相残杀的战争，以操纵对这些事情的看法。
I'm creating a much too jaded view of romance and love, I think.
我认为我对浪漫和爱情的看法过于厌倦了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, no, we will get to the happy endings and long ...
哦，不，我们会得到幸福的结局，而且很长......
I mean, there are certainly many happy relationships out there.
我的意思是，那里肯定有很多幸福的关系。
As a neuroscientist, I hear about this and the immediacy of how people fall into a pattern of jealousy or a pattern of cheating, and not always.
作为一名神经科学家，我听说过这一点，以及人们如何立即陷入嫉妒或欺骗模式，但并非总是如此。
And it just speaks to a brain circuitry that's evolved to protect something.
它只是与为了保护某些东西而进化的大脑回路进行对话。
And I'm sure this statement is not exhaustive, but I think it's accurate to say that every species, but especially humans, wants to make more of itself and protect its young.
我确信这个说法并不详尽，但我认为准确地说，每个物种，尤其是人类，都希望创造更多自己并保护其后代。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But these issues of paternity and resource allocation, I think they're vital, and I look forward to a day where evolutionary psychology and neuroscience can merge at the level of underlying mechanism.
但我认为这些亲子关系和资源分配问题至关重要，我期待有一天进化心理学和神经科学能够在潜在机制层面上融合。
But I don't think it's dark.
但我不认为这是黑暗的。
I think it's just the way we're wired at some level.
我认为这只是我们在某种程度上的联系方式。
Speaking of dark, could you tell us about the Dark Triad?
说到黑暗，您能给我们介绍一下黑暗三合会吗？
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
Yeah, so the Dark Triad ...
是的，所以黑暗三合会...
So, we've been talking about sex differences on average, but there are critical within-sex individual differences.
因此，我们一直在讨论平均性别差异，但性别内个体差异也很重要。
And the Dark Triad is one of the most important ones.
黑暗三合会是最重要的三合会之一。
The Dark Triad consists of three personality characteristics.
黑暗三人格由三个人格特征组成。
So, narcissism, Machiavellianism, and psychopathy.
所以，自恋、马基雅维利主义和精神病态。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
Hallmarks of narcissism are things like grandiosity, the person thinks that they're more intelligent, more attractive, more dazzling, more charming than they actually are.
自恋的标志是浮夸之类的东西，人们认为自己比实际上更聪明、更有吸引力、更耀眼、更迷人。
They think they're the greatest person since sliced bread.
他们认为自己是自切片面包以来最伟大的人。
Importantly, with narcissism, you also get a sense of entitlement.
重要的是，有了自恋，你还会有一种权利感。
So, they feel entitled to a larger share of the pie, whether that be the financial pie, the status pie, or the sexual pie.
因此，他们觉得自己有权分得更大的份额，无论是经济馅饼、地位馅饼还是性馅饼。
Machiavellianism is high scores tend to pursue an exploitative social strategy.
马基雅维利主义是高分倾向追求剥削性的社会策略。
So, they might feign cooperation but then cheat on subsequent moves.
因此，他们可能会假装合作，但随后却在后续行动中作弊。
They view other people as pawns to be manipulated for their own instrumental gains.
他们将其他人视为为自己的工具性利益而被操纵的棋子。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
And then psychopathy — one of the hallmarks of psychopathy is a lack of empathy.
然后是精神病——精神病的标志之一是缺乏同理心。
So, most people have a normal empathy circuit where if a child falls down and gets hurt, we feel compassion for the harm that that person is undergoing.
因此，大多数人都有正常的同理心回路，如果一个孩子摔倒并受伤，我们会对那个人所遭受的伤害感到同情。
Or if a puppy gets hit by a car or whatever, we feel compassion.
或者，如果一只小狗被车撞了或其他什么，我们会感到同情。
Psychopaths don't.
精神病患者则不然。
That is high on this ...
这方面就高了...
It's a dimensional thing.
这是一个维度的东西。
It's not a categorical thing.
这不是一个绝对的事情。
So, those high on psychopathy basically lack empathy.
所以，那些高度精神病态的人基本上缺乏同理心。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
And so, if you combine these qualities, narcissism, psychopathy, and Machiavellianism, you have some very bad dudes.
所以，如果你把自恋、精神病和马基雅维利主义这些品质结合起来，你就会得到一些非常坏的家伙。
And I say bad dudes because men tend to score higher on these things than women, especially on the psychopathy dimension.
我说坏人是因为男性在这些方面往往比女性得分更高，尤其是在精神病维度上。
So, when you talk about clinical levels of psychopathy, it's estimated to be something like 1% of women and about 4% of men.
因此，当谈到精神病的临床水平时，估计女性的比例约为 1%，男性的比例约为 4%。
So, men are much higher in that.
所以，男人在这方面要高得多。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
So, why is this important?
那么，为什么这很重要？
Well, it's important in the mating context, because those who are high on Dark Triad traits tend to be sexual deceivers, for one.
嗯，这在交配环境中很重要，因为那些具有高黑暗三合会特征的人往往是性欺骗者。
So, they're often very charming, very good at seducing women and then abandoning them, sometimes after fleecing them or draining their bank account.
因此，他们通常非常迷人，非常擅长诱惑女性，然后抛弃她们，有时是在敲诈她们或耗尽她们的银行账户之后。
They're very good at the art of seduction.
他们非常擅长诱惑的艺术。
They also tend to be serial sexual harassers and sexual coercers.
他们也往往是连续性骚扰者和性胁迫者。
So.
所以。
when it comes to forms of sexual violence, high Dark Triad guys tend to be perpetrators of this.
当谈到性暴力的形式时，高黑暗三合会的人往往是肇事者。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
And so, most men, I think, would find it ethically abhorrent to sexually harass, say, a woman in the workplace.
因此，我认为大多数男性会发现在工作场所对女性进行性骚扰在道德上是令人厌恶的。
Dark Triad guys, in part, maybe they feel entitled to it, and in part they do.
黑暗三合会的家伙，在某种程度上，也许他们觉得自己有权这样做，在某种程度上他们也确实这么做了。
In some cases that I report in the book, there are literal descriptions where the guys are writing in these journals, "Oh, I knew she was attracted to me.
在我在书中报道的某些情况下，这些人在这些日记中写道，“哦，我知道她被我吸引了。
That's why she met me in the xerox room just when I was there, because she wanted to admire my bulging biceps," or whatever.
这就是为什么当我在复印室时她在复印室遇见了我，因为她想欣赏我鼓起的二头肌，”或者其他什么。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's all about them.
这都是关于他们的。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
Yeah.
是的。
And this gets into a bias that I talk about, which is the male sexual misperception bias, where a woman smiles at a man, man thinks, "Oh, she wants my body, she's attracted to me." And women are thinking, "Oh, I'm just being friendly, I'm being polite or professional." But these guys, high Dark Triad guys, are more susceptible to the sexual over-perception bias, and they literally believe that the woman is attracted to them and sending them signals, green lights, to sexually approach.
这就涉及到我所说的一种偏见，即男性性误解偏见，女人对男人微笑，男人会想，“哦，她想要我的身体，她被我吸引了。”女性会想，“哦，我只是表现出友好，我表现得有礼貌或专业。”但这些男人，高黑暗三合会的男人，更容易受到性过度感知偏见的影响，他们确实相信女人被他们吸引，并向他们发出信号，绿灯，进行性接触。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
And so, if you combine Dark Triad traits with the dispositional pursuit of a short-term mating strategy, that's an especially deadly combination.
因此，如果你将黑暗三人格特征与对短期交配策略的性格追求结合起来，那就是一个特别致命的组合。
That's when you get sexual harassment, sexual coercion.
那就是你遭受性骚扰、性胁迫的时候。
So, these are very bad dudes.
所以，这些都是非常坏的家伙。
Also, predictors of intimate partner violence.
此外，亲密伴侣暴力的预测因素。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What approximate frequency in the male population have all three of the Dark Triad traits?
男性群体中具有所有三种黑暗三合会特征的大约频率是多少？
And I realize that they're on a continuum: sociopathy, narcissism-
我意识到他们是一个连续体：反社会、自恋——
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
That's why you can't say, because they are on a continuum, and it's sort of arbitrary where you draw the line.
这就是为什么你不能这么说，因为它们处于一个连续体上，而且你在哪里划界线是任意的。
But I think it's a minority of men.
但我认为这只是少数男性。
It's a subset of men who commit the vast majority of these acts of sexual violence.
绝大多数性暴力行为都是由一小部分男性实施的。
And that's why it's not like ...
这就是为什么它不像......
If you look at victims of sexual violence, they're more numerous than the perpetrators of sexual violence because the perpetrators tend to be serial offenders, so to speak.
如果你看看性暴力的受害者，你会发现他们的数量比性暴力的施暴者还要多，因为可以这么说，施暴者往往是连环犯罪者。
One guy in the workplace harassing 15 different women.
一名男子在工作场所骚扰 15 名不同的女性。
One guy sexually coercing multiple women.
一名男子对多名女性进行性胁迫。
So, that's why you have, in well-known cases in the news like Harvey Weinstein, probably over a hundred different women.
所以，这就是为什么在像哈维·韦恩斯坦这样的新闻报道中，可能有一百多个不同的女性。
Bill Cosby, Jeffrey Epstein, some of these more famous cases, these are a large number of victims, but pretty much sole perpetrators.
比尔·科斯比（Bill Cosby）、杰弗里·爱泼斯坦（Jeffrey Epstein），其中一些比较著名的案件，有大量受害者，但几乎都是唯一的肇事者。
And there's no question that these guys like Harvey Weinstein and Jeffrey Epstein were definitely high on Dark Triad traits.
毫无疑问，像哈维·韦恩斯坦和杰弗里·爱泼斯坦这样的人绝对具有很高的黑暗三合会特征。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You mentioned stalking briefly.
你简单地提到了跟踪。
Maybe we could just talk about some of the less-known features about stalking.
也许我们可以只讨论一些有关跟踪的鲜为人知的功能。
I think I once heard you give a lecture where you said that one of the scariest things about stalking is that sometimes it works.
我想我曾经听过您的一次演讲，您说跟踪最可怕的事情之一就是有时它会起作用。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
Yes.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Well, stalking has multiple motivations, but one of the most frequent motivations is a mating motivation, where either there's a breakup and the woman dumps the guy, and the guy doesn't want to get dumped.
嗯，跟踪有多种动机，但最常见的动机之一是交配动机，其中要么是分手，女人甩了男人，而男人不想被甩。
He wants to maintain a relationship with her.
他想和她保持关系。
And I should say that when it comes to criminal stalking, there's a huge sex difference.
我应该说，在犯罪跟踪方面，存在巨大的性别差异。
About 80% of the stalkers tend to be men, about 20% women.
大约 80% 的跟踪者往往是男性，大约 20% 是女性。
So, there are women stalkers, but they're about a fourth the number compared to men.
因此，确实存在女性跟踪者，但其数量约为男性的四分之一。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
So, the motivation of the guys tends to be either an attempt to get back together with the woman, either sexually or in a relationship, and/or to interfere with her future mating prospects.
因此，男人的动机往往是试图与女人复合，无论是性行为还是恋爱关系，和/或干扰她未来的交配前景。
And it works some of the time in two senses.
有时它在两种意义上发挥作用。
One is it does interfere with her attempts to re-mate.
一是它确实干扰了她重新交配的尝试。
In fact, it scares off some guys.
事实上，它吓跑了一些人。
Like, you show up and pick up a woman at her apartment for a date, and her ex is sitting out there glaring at you.
就像，你出现在一个女人的公寓里去约会，而她的前任正坐在外面瞪着你。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm actually familiar with the circumstance where early in a relationship somebody mentions that an ex has made veiled threats about surveillance, for instance.
我实际上很熟悉这样的情况，例如，在恋爱关系的早期，有人提到前任对监视发出了隐晦的威胁。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I've actually had that happen several times in my dating history where someone would say ...
事实上，在我的约会历史中，这种情况发生过好几次，有人会说……
You started opening up about previous relationships a little bit, as is appropriate, and someone says, "Yeah, he mentioned that he was going to send someone around to surveil me." That kind of thing, which is a very interesting factoid to pick up.
你开始在适当的时候公开谈论以前的关系，有人说，“是的，他提到他要派人到处监视我。”这类事情是一个非常有趣的事实。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But I heard it enough times, and people I know have reported hearing this enough times, that I'm guessing that that's probably more frequent than people actually trailing people in cars and things of that sort.
但我听过很多次了，而且我认识的人也报告说听过很多次了，我猜这可能比人们在汽车和类似的东西中实际跟踪别人的情况更频繁。
But planting that ...
但种植那个...
It's like, the psychological seed of surveillance is a form of harassment in some sense.
就像，监视的心理种子在某种意义上是一种骚扰形式。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
Yes, absolutely.
是的，绝对是。
I think you're right.
我认为你是对的。
There's that planting the psychological seeds.
这就是种下心理种子。
But then also with surveillance, some surveillors remain hidden, so you don't know necessarily.
但在监视方面，一些监视者仍然隐藏，所以你不一定知道。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, I confess in this case, it did not act as a deterrent for continuing the relationship, but that's another story.
是的，我承认在这种情况下，它并没有起到阻止继续关系的作用，但那是另一个故事了。
So, how often do women respond — I have to put this in quotes, for those that are listening, air quotes, end quotes — positively to stalking?
那么，女性多久会对跟踪做出积极的反应——对于那些正在倾听的人，我必须将其放在引号中，空中引号，结束引号？
I mean, how often does it work to resecure the partner after they've been broken up with?
我的意思是，在伴侣分手后，有多少次可以重新获得伴侣的支持？
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
Yeah.
是的。
Well, so in our studies, it's a minority of cases that it works to reestablish.
嗯，所以在我们的研究中，它只能重建少数案例。
I think something like 15% of the time that it works either to temporarily reestablish a sexual relationship or lure the woman back in for a more permanent relationship.
我认为大约 15% 的情况下，它要么可以暂时重建性关系，要么可以引诱女性重新建立更永久的关系。
So, most of the time it doesn't work.
所以，大多数时候它不起作用。
But one woman in our study said the guy, every time she went out with another guy, he would threaten the other guy.
但我们研究中的一位女性说，每次她和另一个男人出去时，这个男人都会威胁另一个男人。
And she said after about six months, there were no other guys.
她说大约六个月后，就没有其他人了。
He basically scared off all the other guys.
他基本上吓跑了所有其他人。
And so, she went back to him because there were no other guys around.
于是，她又回到了他身边，因为周围没有其他男人。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, I experienced this when I was in college.
是的，我上大学的时候就经历过这个。
I lived in a small town, very population dense — Isla Vista, UC Santa Barbara.
我住在一个人口密集的小镇——加州大学圣巴巴拉分校的维斯塔岛。
And there was a couple where every time this woman would date someone, he'd basically beat up whoever the new suitor was, and pretty soon no one would go near them.
还有一对夫妇，每次这个女人和某人约会时，他基本上都会殴打新追求者，很快就没有人会接近他们。
They got a reputation as the Sid and Nancy couple.
他们被称为席德和南希夫妇。
And indeed it worked.
确实有效。
It worked in the sense that no one dared go near her, and they ended up together.
从某种意义上说，它起作用了，没有人敢靠近她，他们最终在一起了。
So, I've seen real-life examples of this.
所以，我见过现实生活中的例子。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
Yeah, so it happens, but it is, in general, not a successful strategy.
是的，确实如此，但总的来说，这并不是一个成功的策略。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, no. And it's not what I'm suggesting.
哦，不。这不是我的建议。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I was just shocked to learn that, because we hear stalking, and we have this ...
得知这一点我很震惊，因为我们听到跟踪，而且我们有这个......
There's one very extreme image of it, but the underlying motivations, I think, reveal something about mating dynamics.
有一个非常极端的形象，但我认为潜在的动机揭示了一些有关交配动态的信息。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
Yeah.
是的。
And I think that the circumstances are often a mate value discrepancy, where the guy realizes correctly that he will be unable to replace her with a mate of equivalent mate value, or in some cases, any mate.
我认为这种情况通常是配偶价值差异，男人正确地意识到他无法用具有同等配偶价值的配偶或在某些情况下任何配偶来取代她。
It's like, "Well, she was with me once, maybe I can get her back with me again." So, the psychology is very understandable, but it tends not to work because ...
就像是，“好吧，她曾经和我在一起过，也许我可以让她再次和我在一起。”所以，心理学是非常可以理解的，但它往往不起作用，因为......
Another thing we found ...
我们发现的另一件事...
We did a study of 2,500 victims of stalking.
我们对 2,500 名跟踪受害者进行了研究。
This is with Josh Duntley, a former student of mine who's now a professor in a criminology department.
这是乔什·邓特利 (Josh Duntley)，他是我以前的学生，现在是犯罪学系的教授。
And what we found is there were large differences between the stalker and the victim of the stalker, where the stalker tends to be much lower in mate value than the victim.
我们发现跟踪者和跟踪者的受害者之间存在很大差异，跟踪者的配偶价值往往比受害者低得多。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
And so, basically, it's typically the woman who realizes she can do a lot better on the mating market, and the guy realizes, "I am never going to be able to replace her with a woman of equivalent mate value, and so, I'm going to use this last-ditch, desperate measure to try to get her back," and occasionally it works.
因此，基本上，通常是女人意识到自己可以在交配市场上做得更好，而男人则意识到，“我永远无法用具有同等伴侣价值的女人取代她，所以，我将使用这种最后的、绝望的措施来试图让她回来，”有时它会起作用。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm thinking more about this mate value thing, this number, this metric, the eight, 10, six, whatever it is, and mate value discrepancy playing such a strong role in all these dynamics.
我更多地思考这个伴侣价值的事情，这个数字，这个指标，8，10，6，无论是什么，以及伴侣价值差异在所有这些动态中发挥着如此重要的作用。
I should have asked this earlier, but what is the impact on mate value, perceived or real, of a woman having already had children?
我应该早点问这个问题，但是已经生过孩子的女性对配偶价值（感知的或真实的）有什么影响？
For instance, friends of mine who are married and divorced who have children will often post pictures of themselves with their children in their online profiles because it shows a strong sense of paternal instinct.
例如，我的已婚和离婚的有孩子的朋友经常会在网上个人资料中发布自己和孩子的照片，因为这显示出强烈的父性本能。
There's the puppy thing, people with dogs or puppies, demonstrating a capacity to care and for-
有小狗的事情，养狗或小狗的人，表现出照顾和照顾的能力——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
demonstrating a capacity to care and for caretaking.
表现出照顾和照顾的能力。
In women, the opposite is also true.
对于女性来说，情况恰恰相反。
Women with children show capacity, it demonstrates fertility.
女人有了孩子就显示出能力，显示出生育能力。
At least at one point, perhaps still fertility that's still present.
至少在某一时刻，生育力或许仍然存在。
Does it positively, negatively, or neutrally impact a woman to already have children when seeking another mate, regardless of whether or not she was married or had the children out of wedlock?
对于已经有孩子的女性来说，在寻找另一位伴侣时，无论她是否已婚或未婚生子，会产生积极、消极还是中性影响？
PART 3 OF 4 ENDS David Buss:
第 3 部分（共 4 部分）结束 David Buss：
As a general rule, it decreases her mate value because kids with another mate are viewed as a cost, not a benefit and they're a cost on multiple dimensions.
一般来说，这会降低她的配偶价值，因为与另一个伴侣生孩子被视为一种成本，而不是一种好处，而且它们在多个方面都是一种成本。
One of which they're going to be a cost to the guy because he's going to have to invest resources, time, attention, so forth.
其中之一将成为这个人的成本，因为他必须投入资源、时间、注意力等等。
But also a portion of her effort and resources are going to be devoted toward kids who are not genetically related to him, which is one reason why stepfamilies ...
但她的一部分努力和资源将投入到与他没有遗传关系的孩子身上，这就是继家庭的原因之一......
There's often a lot of conflict within stepfamilies, very explicable from an evolutionary perspective.
继家庭内部经常存在很多冲突，从进化的角度来看这是很容易解释的。
In general, it's a cost, not a benefit.
一般来说，这是成本，而不是收益。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
Sometimes it can be a benefit though.
有时这可能是一种好处。
I know one case where a woman got divorced, she had two kids, and she ended up successfully mating with a guy who was also divorced and had primary custody of his two kids.
我知道一个案例，一位女士离婚了，她有两个孩子，她最终成功地与一个也离婚并拥有两个孩子主要监护权的男人交配。
There was a compatibility there.
那里有兼容性。
But as a general rule, it will decrease a woman's, and a man's, mate value to have kids, especially kids who are young and financially dependent.
但一般来说，生孩子会降低女性和男性的择偶价值，尤其是那些年轻且经济上依赖的孩子。
But what happens is, let's say the woman would be an eight without kids, a guy who's a six might be able to attract her, and might feel lucky to attract her, because there's no way he would've been able to attract her under other conditions.
但会发生的情况是，假设这个女人是没有孩子的八岁，一个六岁的男人可能能够吸引她，并且可能会因为吸引她而感到幸运，因为在其他条件下他不可能吸引她。
That's why the display of effort, investing in her kids, is often a mating tactic.
这就是为什么表现出努力、对孩子的投资往往是一种交配策略。
He's showing, "Okay.
他表现出，“好吧。
I'm willing to invest in kids.
我愿意为孩子投资。
I'm willing to sacrifice," and so they, in essence, become equivalent in mate value as a result of that.
我愿意牺牲”，因此，从本质上讲，他们的配偶价值因此变得平等。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
But will she be able to attract, on average, other eights?
但平均而言，她能吸引其他八个人吗？
Less likely, but the same is true of guys.
可能性较小，但男性也是如此。
And this is why the reason that it affects women more than men is because more custody tends to go with women, that is the kids, women tend to have greater custody, and women tend to invest more in the kids throughout their lives.
这就是为什么它对女性的影响比男性更大的原因是因为更多的监护权往往属于女性，即孩子，女性往往拥有更多的监护权，女性往往会在一生中对孩子进行更多的投资。
Now, there are other things like alimony, and child support payments, and so forth.
现在，还有其他的事情，比如赡养费、子女抚养费等等。
But all the women I've talked to, I've talked one-on-one with many women about this; they view a guy with kids as a cost, not a benefit, unless the kids are old enough and they've left home and are no longer financially dependent.
但我采访过的所有女性，我都与许多女性一对一地谈论过这个问题；他们认为有孩子的男人是一种成本，而不是好处，除非孩子足够大并且他们已经离开家并且不再在经济上依赖。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And everything you just described is consistent with what you said earlier, which is that with subsequent marriages or as men get older, the tendency is to seek mates that are progressively younger, right?
你刚才所描述的一切都与你之前所说的一致，即随着后来的婚姻或随着男人年龄的增长，趋势是寻找越来越年轻的伴侣，对吧？
Because there's a lower probability they'll already have children if they're much younger.
因为如果他们年轻得多，他们已经有了孩子的可能性就会更低。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
Right, right.
对，对。
And if the guy's successful, if he has status and resources and has other qualities associated with higher mate value, then he will remain attractive to younger women.
如果这个男人很成功，如果他有地位和资源，并且具有与更高的伴侣价值相关的其他品质，那么他将仍然对年轻女性有吸引力。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I realize it's not your specific area of expertise, but these days there's a lot of discussion about how early childhood attachment to parents influences mate choice later on.
我知道这不是你的专业领域，但现在有很多关于童年时期对父母的依恋如何影响后来的择偶选择的讨论。
This kind of general categorization of avoidant and anxious, and anxious-avoidant, and all this kind of thing.
这种对回避型和焦虑型、焦虑回避型以及所有此类事物的一般分类。
And again, putting my hat on as a neuroscientist, I think it makes sense that the neural circuits for attachment in childhood would be somehow, partially or in whole, repurposed for other forms of attachment.
再次，作为一名神经科学家，我认为童年时期依恋的神经回路会以某种方式、部分或全部地重新用于其他形式的依恋，这是有道理的。
We don't just tend to say, "Okay.
我们不只是倾向于说：“好吧。
That brain circuitry was from when I was a kid, and now I'm an adult and so I'll develop this new attachment circuitry." I'm guessing it evolves and whatnot.
这个大脑回路来自我小时候，现在我是成年人了，所以我将开发这种新的依恋回路。”我猜它会进化等等。
But is there anything interesting about childhood attachment strategies, vis-à-vis stability of long-term partner choice, or is that too big of a leap for us to make here?
但是，关于童年依恋策略，相对于长期伴侣选择的稳定性，有什么有趣的地方吗？或者说，这对于我们来说是否是一个太大的飞跃？
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
Yeah.
是的。
Well, I mean I can offer some sort of informed speculation about it.
嗯，我的意思是我可以对此提供一些有根据的猜测。
And as you point, it's not my area of expertise, but I know a little bit about it.
正如你所指出的，这不是我的专业领域，但我对此有所了解。
And I mean, I think that secure attachment style, if both partners have a secure attachment style, that's conducive to a long-term mateship.
我的意思是，我认为安全的依恋风格，如果双方都有安全的依恋风格，那有利于长期的伴侣关系。
Avoidant attachment styles, avoidant people, tend to have more difficulty with intimacy and also higher probability of infidelity.
回避型依恋风格，回避型的人，往往更难以建立亲密关系，而且不忠的可能性也更高。
And anxious attachment style, I don't know, can create problems of its own in the overly clingy, dependent, absorbing, what I call high relationship load.
我不知道，焦虑的依恋风格会在过度粘人、依赖、吸引人的情况下产生自己的问题，我称之为高关系负荷。
There's like mutation load, which we all have certain number of mutations.
就像突变负荷一样，我们都有一定数量的突变。
There's parasite load.
有寄生虫负载。
There's also what I call relationship load, so what is the baggage that someone brings to the relationship and they-
还有我所说的关系负荷，那么某人给关系带来的包袱是什么，他们-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Probably correlated with the frequency of demand of immediate text message responses.
可能与即时短信响应的需求频率相关。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, I think the frequency of demand, the expected low latency of text message responses plays out consistently in relationships.
嗯，我认为需求的频率、短信响应的预期低延迟在关系中始终如一地发挥作用。
Early on, there's a very low expectation of response.
早期，人们对回应的期望非常低。
Then as people get attached, depending on their level of anxiety, if they don't hear back from somebody really quickly, where the mind goes is a very interesting aspect.
然后，当人们依恋时，根据他们的焦虑程度，如果他们没有很快收到某人的回复，那么思想的去向是一个非常有趣的方面。
Do you become suspicious?
你会变得怀疑吗？
Do you become anxious?
你变得焦虑吗？
Can you stabilize your own internal milieu, or do you need to see the dot, dot, dot that's coming back?
你能稳定自己的内部环境吗？还是你需要看到那些正在回来的点、点、点？
I'd love to see a study on that at some point.
我很想在某个时候看到对此的研究。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
是啊，是啊，是啊。
That's a good one, and my intuition suggests that your prediction about that would pan out.
这是一个很好的预测，我的直觉表明你对此的预测将会成功。
That would be the insecure that would really be getting upset if there were not that immediate response to the texts.
如果没有立即对短信做出回应，那将是一种不安全感，他们真的会感到不安。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
I have a friend, a female friend, who deliberately, using her language, "trains" her potential partners to be comfortable with a variable response latency.
我有一个朋友，一位女性朋友，她故意用她的语言“训练”她的潜在伴侣，让她适应可变的响应延迟。
But then I asked her if she's comfortable with a variable response latency and she said, "Absolutely not." There's an asymmetry, at least in that case.
但后来我问她是否对可变的响应延迟感到满意，她说：“绝对不。”至少在这种情况下，存在不对称性。
This is almost certainly a more rare circumstance, but I'd be remiss if I didn't ask about unconventional relationships.
这几乎肯定是一种更罕见的情况，但如果我不询问非常规关系，那就是我的失职。
These days, I don't think it's just by virtue of living in California, you hear more and more about monogamish as opposed to monogamous, and various forms of polyamory that may or may not include the amory part.
如今，我不认为这只是因为生活在加利福尼亚州，你会越来越多地听到一夫一妻制而不是一夫一妻制，以及各种形式的多元之爱，其中可能包括也可能不包括爱的部分。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Passes in permission, based on season, circumstance and prior infidelities, like, "Okay.
根据季节、情况和之前的不忠行为获得许可，例如，“好吧。
Somebody had a mishap early on, you have one pass," so to speak.
有人很早就出了事故，你只有一次通行证，”可以这么说。
And you hear this kind of language getting thrown around, and it's intriguing to me because it seems like an effort to bypass some of the more, if you will, hardwired, or at least culturally hardwired, aspects of mate choice and sexual partner choice, acknowledging jealousy but confronting it by allowing your partner to be with somebody else, for instance.
你会听到这种语言被到处乱扔，这对我来说很有趣，因为这似乎是一种努力，试图绕过择偶和性伴侣选择中一些固有的，或者至少在文化上固有的方面，例如，承认嫉妒，但通过允许你的伴侣与其他人在一起来面对它。
I confess I have friends who have unconventional relationships.
我承认我有一些朋友的关系非常规。
I have friends with conventional relationships.
我有一些关系传统的朋友。
Any thoughts on polyamory, or?
对多角恋有什么想法吗？
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah, I do have a couple thoughts on it.
是的，我对此确实有一些想法。
I haven't studied it extensively, but I think that the way I would phrase it is that there's an attempt to overcome certain evolved features of our mating psychology, but often in the service of other aspects of our mating psychology.
我没有广泛研究过它，但我认为我的表达方式是，人们试图克服我们交配心理的某些进化特征，但通常是为了我们交配心理的其他方面服务。
What I mean by that is this.
我的意思是这样的。
So we talk about polyamory; first of all, there's a sex difference, on average.
所以我们谈论多角恋；首先，平均而言，存在性别差异。
That is, men are more likely to want to initiate a polyamorous relationship than women.
也就是说，男性比女性更有可能想要建立多角恋关系。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
There are lots of exceptions, and I actually know of at least one exception personally, friends of mine who are in a polyamorous relationship.
有很多例外，实际上我个人至少知道一个例外，我的朋友们处于多角恋关系中。
But the motivation for men is that evolved desire for sexual variety.
但男性的动机是对性多样性的渴望。
It gives him access to a wider variety of sex partners, which is part of our evolved sexual psychology, especially for men.
它使他能够接触到更广泛的性伴侣，这是我们进化的性心理的一部分，尤其是对于男性而言。
Women, one motivation ...
女人，一种动力...
now women also have a desire for sexual variety.
现在女性也渴望性的多样性。
On average, tends not to be as great as that of men, but also have it.
平均而言，往往不如男性，但也有。
But some women agree to a polyamorous relationship as a mate retention tactic.
但一些女性同意将多角恋关系作为保留配偶的策略。
That is this guy, in order to keep him, she has to agree to the relationship, and so the motivations for engaging in polyamory are somewhat sex-differentiated.
就是这个家伙，为了留住他，她必须同意这种关系，所以从事多角恋的动机有些性别差异。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
On average?
平均而言？
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
On average, on average.
平均而言，平均而言。
There's lots of exceptions.
有很多例外。
Now, when it comes to sexual jealousy, there is this recognition that, and the way that I would frame it, there's this evolved emotion where it triggers sexual jealousy, seeing your partner having sex or imagining your partner having sex or be falling in love with someone else.
现在，当谈到性嫉妒时，人们认识到，以及我所描述的方式，有一种进化的情感，它会引发性嫉妒，看到你的伴侣发生性行为或想象你的伴侣发生性行为或爱上别人。
But interestingly, and there haven't been studies on this, but I know of this one polyamorous couple where they reported to me, both of them reported to me.
但有趣的是，还没有这方面的研究，但我知道一对多角恋夫妇，他们向我汇报，他们都向我汇报。
She said it doesn't bother her at all if her husband, they're married, has sex with other women.
她说，如果她的丈夫（他们已婚）与其他女性发生性关系，她一点也不介意。
They allow it.
他们允许这样做。
I think it's like every Thursday night or whatever, they have the ...
我想就像每个星期四晚上或者什么的，他们都有......
Different couples that have different rules.
不同的情侣有不同的规则。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
But one time she saw him walking down the street hand-in-hand, affectionately with a former girlfriend, and she got extremely jealous because it signaled an emotional connection.
但有一次，她看到他和一位前女友深情地牵着手走在街上，她非常嫉妒，因为这标志着一种情感联系。
The sexual didn't bother, the emotional did.
性并不困扰，情感却困扰。
She happens to be bisexual, and she and her partner said that it really upset him when she slept with other men, but it was fine if she slept with other women.
她恰好是双性恋，她和她的伴侣说，当她和其他男人睡时，他确实很不高兴，但如果她和其他女人睡，那也没关系。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think that's a fairly common thing; among the men that I know that are in polyamorous relationships, that's a fairly common statement.
我认为这是一个相当普遍的事情；在我认识的处于多角恋关系中的男人中，这是一个相当普遍的说法。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
Yeah, and so he kept trying to ...
是的，所以他一直在努力……
these internecine manipulations, trying to encourage her to sleep with other women but not with men.
这些自相残杀的手段，试图鼓励她和其他女人上床，而不是和男人上床。
And in her case, encouraging him not to get emotionally involved with other women, but the sex was okay.
就她而言，鼓励他不要与其他女性发生情感纠葛，但性行为是可以的。
I think that in the modern environment, we have a very rich and complicated evolved mating psychology.
我认为在现代环境中，我们有非常丰富和复杂的进化交配心理。
And what we're doing in these novel forms, or seminovel because these things have a pretty deep history themselves, that we're attempting to maximize some of our evolved desires while keeping quiescent other evolved aspects of our sexual psychology like jealousy, so satisfying our desire for sexual variety, but keeping jealousy at bay.
我们正在以这些新颖的形式或半新颖的形式所做的事情，因为这些东西本身就有相当深厚的历史，我们试图最大化我们的一些进化的欲望，同时保持我们性心理的其他进化方面如嫉妒的静止，从而满足我们对性多样性的渴望，但保持嫉妒。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
And different couples do it in different ways.
不同的夫妇以不同的方式做到这一点。
As you alluded to.
正如你所提到的。
So I know one couple live in Los Angeles, and the woman said she gives her husband permission to have an affair, sleep with other women, as long as it's outside of the city limits of L.A.
我知道一对夫妇住在洛杉矶，那位女士说她允许她的丈夫发生外遇，与其他女人睡觉，只要是在洛杉矶市区之外。
And this other couple, it has to be Thursday night.
而另一对夫妇，必须是星期四晚上。
People have different arrangements.
人们有不同的安排。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There are constraints, but the constraints are specific and somewhat arbitrary to the relationship.
存在约束，但这些约束对于关系来说是特定的并且有些任意。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah, they're specific.
是的，它们很具体。
And often in polyamorous relationships, people talk it out and come to an agreement on what is acceptable and what's out-of-bounds.
通常，在多角恋关系中，人们会讨论并就什么是可以接受的、什么是越界的问题达成一致。
But in a way, it's just we can't change our evolved sexual psychology, I don't think.
但在某种程度上，我认为我们无法改变我们进化而来的性心理。
What we can do is we can activate certain elements of it and keep others quiescent, and that's all good.
我们能做的就是激活其中的某些元素并让其他元素保持静止，这很好。
In a way, we do in the modern environment.
在某种程度上，我们在现代环境中就是这么做的。
Even to take it outside of polyamory, pornography, okay?
甚至把它带出多角恋、色情作品之外，好吗？
Widely-consumed Internet pornography, what does that do?
广泛消费的网络色情内容有什么作用？
Well, there's a big sex difference there.
嗯，性别差异很大。
Men tend to consume it a lot more than women.
男性比女性消耗更多。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
The forms of the pornography are different, but in a way, the pornography, what it does is it parasitized men's evolved desire for sexual variety.
色情作品的形式各不相同，但在某种程度上，色情作品的作用是寄生于男性进化而来的对性多样性的渴望。
They can, in some sense, psychologically experience sexual ...
从某种意义上说，他们可以在心理上体验性……
a variety of different women sexually without actually doing it, by just looking at their computer screen.
各种不同的女性在没有实际行动的情况下发生性行为，只需看着她们的电脑屏幕。
In a way, another way of phrasing that is that we create modern novel cultural inventions in ways that satisfy our evolved desires and our evolved sexual desires.
在某种程度上，另一种说法是，我们以满足我们进化的欲望和进化的性欲的方式创造现代新颖的文化发明。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's interesting with the kind of explosion of online pornography, I have a colleague at Stanford, in psychiatry, Anna Lembke, who studies the dopamine system, and she mentioned two things of interest.
网络色情的激增很有趣，我在斯坦福大学有一位精神病学同事安娜·莱姆克（Anna Lembke），她研究多巴胺系统，她提到了两件有趣的事情。
One is that not only is there a tremendous variety of experiences that are available to people to view in pornography, but the intensity is also quite high, so much so that at least for young people who are observing a lot of pornography, it's possible, and there are studies looking at this now, that their brain circuits become wired to observing sexual acts as opposed to being engaged in them, which can be extremely problematic.
其一是，人们不仅可以在色情内容中获得多种多样的体验，而且强度也相当高，以至于至少对于观看大量色情内容的年轻人来说，有可能，而且现在有研究正在研究这一点，他们的大脑回路可能会倾向于观察性行为，而不是参与性行为，这可能是一个非常有问题的问题。
It's a sharp blade, so to speak, this pornography thing.
可以说，色情内容是一把锋利的刀片。
It isn't what it once was and it's evolving quickly.
它不再是以前的样子，而且正在迅速发展。
Very interesting.
非常有趣。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
How should one frame all this?
应该如何构建这一切？
I imagine a number of people listening are in relationships or would hope to be in a relationship.
我想很多听的人都已经恋爱了或者希望建立恋爱关系。
In terms of understanding what we are selecting for consciously or subconsciously, it seems like there are common themes.
就理解我们有意识或无意识地选择什么而言，似乎存在共同的主题。
People want to feel attractive and attracted.
人们想要感到有吸引力和被吸引。
People want to make sure that there's stability of the relationship.
人们希望确保关系的稳定性。
When we hear about security, oftentimes I think of this kind of warm, oxytocin, serotonin-like thing.
当我们听到安全感时，我常常会想到这种温暖的、催产素、血清素般的东西。
But this mate value seems so powerful in all this — assessing mate value.
但在评估配偶价值方面，这种配偶价值似乎非常强大。
How objective are people about assessing their own value in terms of finding, securing, and over time, maintaining a relationship?
人们在寻找、维护以及长期维持关系方面评估自身价值的客观程度如何？
Securing is dynamic because people age at different rates.
保障是动态的，因为人们的衰老速度不同。
Is there an objective metric of this stuff?
这个东西有客观的衡量标准吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I guess you get a lot of statistics about somebody's image, and you come up with an average value based on the population.
我想你会得到很多关于某人形象的统计数据，然后根据人群得出一个平均值。
But how should people assess themselves?
但人们应该如何评价自己呢？
Because it seems like one of the features that would be very powerful for leading to happiness, of good partner selection that's stable, where one doesn't have to resort to these Machiavellian or diabolical or any of these other strategies, would be to be very honest with oneself, and how does one do that?
因为似乎对带来幸福非常有力的特征之一是，选择稳定的良好伴侣，不必诉诸这些马基雅维利或恶魔或任何其他策略，对自己非常诚实，一个人如何做到这一点呢？
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
Yeah, great questions, and I don't think that the science has all the answers.
是的，这是一个很好的问题，但我认为科学并不能给出所有答案。
A couple things.
有几件事。
One is that I think people are generally pretty good at self-assessing mate value, and even self-esteem has been hypothesized to be one internal monitoring device that tracks mate value.
一是我认为人们通常非常善于自我评估配偶价值，甚至自尊也被假设为一种追踪配偶价值的内部监控装置。
When we get a promotion at work or we get a rising status, we feel an elevated sense of self-esteem.
当我们在工作中获得晋升或地位上升时，我们会感到自尊感增强。
We get fired, we get rejected, we get ostracized, our self-esteem plummets.
我们被解雇、被拒绝、被排斥、自尊心直线下降。
Our self-evaluation, I think, does track mate value to some extent.
我认为，我们的自我评价确实在某种程度上追踪了伴侣的价值。
There are people who overestimate their mate value, people high in narcissism, in particular.
有些人高估了自己的伴侣价值，尤其是那些高度自恋的人。
And some people underestimate their mate value.
有些人低估了他们的伴侣价值。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
Another important element is that there's consensual mate value.
另一个重要因素是双方同意的择偶价值。
That is if you asked a group of a hundred people, there's a fair amount of consensus that this person's an eight, that person's a six.
也就是说，如果你问一个一百人的小组，有相当多的人一致认为这个人是八分，那个人是六分。
But there are also individual differences in mate value.
但择偶价值也存在个体差异。
One example is I know a woman who's a professor, and she places a high premium on guys who are deeply steeped in Russian literature, which she is, so that she can have in-depth conversations about Russian literature.
一个例子是我认识一位女士，她是一名教授，她非常看重那些对俄罗斯文学有深入了解的男人（她就是这样），这样她就可以就俄罗斯文学进行深入的对话。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Note to young men, learn Russian literature.
年轻人请注意，学习俄罗斯文学。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
But this is high and it's a dimension of mate value that's important for her, but probably not important for a lot of other people.
但这是很高的，也是伴侣价值的一个维度，对她来说很重要，但对很多其他人来说可能并不重要。
Whereas other people, let's say, might be, let's say you're into football or some sport, and another partner thinks sports are stupid, then someone who's also into sports is going to be higher in mate value for you.
而其他人，比方说，可能是，比方说，你喜欢足球或某些运动，而另一个伴侣认为运动很愚蠢，那么同样喜欢运动的人对你来说的伴侣价值会更高。
There are these individual differences in components of mate value, which is good because that means if everyone were going after the same people, and there was total consensus on mate value, then there would be a lot of mateless people and a lot of problems in the world and a lot of dissatisfied people.
配偶价值的组成部分存在这些个体差异，这是好事，因为这意味着如果每个人都追求同一个人，并且在配偶价值上存在完全共识，那么世界上就会有很多无配偶的人，世界上会出现很多问题，也会有很多不满意的人。
Both are important, the consensual aspects and the individually differentiated components of mate value.
双方同意的方面和配偶价值的个体差异部分都很重要。
But in terms of accuracy of assessment, there are no good measures scientifically to do this.
但在评估的准确性方面，目前还没有科学有效的措施来做到这一点。
Because it's sufficiently complicated.
因为它足够复杂。
We've mentioned maybe a dozen different components of mate value.
我们已经提到了配偶价值的十几个不同组成部分。
Physical attractiveness, kindness, emotional stability, health status, et cetera.
外表吸引力、善良、情绪稳定、健康状况等等。
These aren't the only ones.
这些并不是唯一的。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
I teach a course on psychology of human mating, and I ask the people — it's a large course, couple hundred people, "Tell me, what do women want in a mate?" I started with the blackboard — this is back in the old days when there was a blackboard, a piece of chalk — and they say, "I want a mate who has a good sense of humor," so I write, "sense of humor." "Intelligent." "Kind." I go through this, and I go through five blackboards, and then I run out of space over what women want.
我教授一门关于人类交配心理学的课程，我问人们——这是一门很大的课程，有几百人，“告诉我，女人想要什么样的伴侣？”我从黑板开始——那是在过去，当时有一块黑板，一支粉笔——他们说，“我想要一个有幽默感的伴侣，”所以我写，“幽默感。” “聪明的。” “种类。”我浏览了这个，浏览了五块黑板，然后我就没有空间来描述女性想要什么。
Now, I do the same for men and men kind of run out of space after about a blackboard and a half.
现在，我对男人做同样的事情，男人在大约一个半黑板后就用完了空间。
But what that tells me is that these qualities are large in number and complicated in nature.
但这告诉我的是，这些品质数量众多且性质复杂。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
You say you want a guy who's nice and generous, they say, "Yeah." A guy who, at the end of every month, takes his whole paycheck and gives it to the wino, homeless person?
你说你想要一个友善而慷慨的人，他们说：“是的。”每个月月底，他都会把自己的全部薪水交给酒鬼、无家可归的人？
"Well, no, not that generous.
“呃，不，没那么慷慨。
Generous toward me, but not toward everyone else." Nice in general, but not so nice that they're getting exploited.
对我很慷慨，但对其他人却不是。”总体来说不错，但还没有好到被剥削的程度。
Now there are some things; you can't be too healthy.
现在有一些事情；你不能太健康。
That's unidimensional, but you want a guy, women want a guy who's confident but not too confident.
这是单一维度的，但你想要一个男人，女人想要一个自信但又不太自信的男人。
Too confident will mean he is either arrogant, narcissistic, or not sufficiently manipulable.
太自信意味着他要么傲慢、自恋，要么没有足够的操纵能力。
Anyway, so my point is that because there's so many different components of mate value and that they vary in amount, so it's not just listing the qualities and summing them up, they vary in amount.
不管怎样，我的观点是，因为伴侣价值有很多不同的组成部分，而且它们的数量也各不相同，所以这不仅仅是列出品质并总结它们，它们的数量也各不相同。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
It's a very complicated endeavor to assess accurately.
准确评估是一项非常复杂的工作。
But I think people have a good intuitive sense of people's relative mate value, especially if you're in a group and you've been able to interact with them for a long time.
但我认为人们对人们的相对伴侣价值有很好的直觉，特别是当你在一个群体中并且你已经能够与他们互动很长时间时。
And one indication is again, that attention structure.
另一个迹象是注意力结构。
How many other people really want to mate with this person?
有多少人真正想与这个人交配？
That's a good cue that they're high in mate value.
这是一个很好的暗示，表明它们的择偶价值很高。
Nobody wants to mate with you, then cue that you're low in mate value.
没有人愿意与你交配，然后暗示你的配偶价值很低。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Reminds me of the time when one is trying to decide who to ask to the prom.
让我想起有人试图决定邀请谁参加舞会的时候。
There's a complicated assessment based on who one would like to go with, whether or not you're already partnered, who would say yes, who would say no, because there's a risk in rejection too because that, if I'm guessing correctly, would could lower one's own perceived mate value.
有一个复杂的评估，基于一个人想和谁一起去，你是否已经有伴侣，谁会说是，谁会说不，因为也存在拒绝的风险，因为如果我猜对了，这可能会降低一个人自己感知的伴侣价值。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
Getting rejected.
被拒绝。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Frequency of rejections probably doesn't lend itself well to increasing one's own view of their mate value.
频繁的拒绝可能不利于提高一个人对伴侣价值的看法。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
Right, which is why many guys have what I call mating anxiety.
是的，这就是为什么很多男人都有我所说的交配焦虑。
That is, they don't approach women because they risk getting shot down.
也就是说，他们不会接近女性，因为她们有被击落的风险。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They're trying to maintain that number by reducing the amount of data?
他们试图通过减少数据量来维持这个数字？
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Very interesting.
非常有趣。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
But it backfires in the modern environment.
但在现代环境中却适得其反。
There's a famous psychologist, Albert Ellis, who had mating anxiety, and he assigned himself the task of approaching, asking, like I can't remember what the number was, but let's say 50 women out on dates.
有一位著名的心理学家阿尔伯特·埃利斯（Albert Ellis）患有交配焦虑症，他给自己分配了一项任务：接近、询问，就像我不记得数字是什么一样，但假设有 50 名女性在约会。
He lived in New York City, so it was a lot of women.
他住在纽约市，所以那里有很多女人。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
He could just stand still and they would stream past.
他只要站着不动，他们就会从身边涌过去。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
Yeah, and he assigned himself, like, ask 50 women on a date every week.
是的，他给自己安排了每周约 50 名女性约会的任务。
And he said after two weeks his mating anxiety disappeared.
他说两周后他的交配焦虑消失了。
Because most of them said, "Buzz off, creep." But he decided, "Well, actually getting rejected didn't cause my world to collapse.
因为他们中的大多数人都说：“滚开，蠕动。”但他决定，“好吧，实际上被拒绝并没有导致我的世界崩溃。
And it actually was okay." He kind of inured himself to this rejection, and so he ended up doing quite well on his mating life.
事实上也没什么问题。”他已经习惯了这种拒绝，所以他最终在交配生活中表现得很好。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Another point for cognitive behavioral desensitization.
认知行为脱敏的另一点。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
Yes, exactly.
是的，完全正确。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
He ran the experiment.
他进行了实验。
Just a couple more questions.
还有几个问题。
Earlier you mentioned self-deception-based deception or something of that sort, self-deception, that people aren't always trying to convince somebody else of something that secretly they know isn't true, but that they deceive themselves.
之前您提到过基于自我欺骗的欺骗或类似的自欺欺人，人们并不总是试图说服别人相信他们秘密知道的事情不是真的，而是他们欺骗自己。
Could you embellish on that a little bit?
你能稍微修饰一下吗？
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
Yeah.
是的。
Well, this is actually, this hypothesis is the famous evolutionary biologist, Robert Trivers, first advanced this hypothesis in the preface in 1976 to Dawkins' book "The Selfish Gene." And he's subsequently written more about it, both in scientific article and in a more popular book.
嗯,这个其实是,这个假说是著名的进化生物学家罗伯特·特里弗斯在1976年道金斯的书《自私的基因》的序言中首先提出了这个假说。随后他在科学文章和一本更受欢迎的书中写了更多相关内容。
But the core idea is that successful deception is facilitated by self-deception, so if you really believe in X, then you're going to be a more successful salesman to convince other people of X.
但核心思想是，成功的欺骗是通过自我欺骗来促进的，所以如果你真的相信X，那么你就会成为一个更成功的推销员来说服其他人相信X。
If you believe you're, let's say, a 10 in mate value, you truly believe it, even if you're not, I'm going to have a more successful time convincing you that I am as well.
如果你相信自己的伴侣价值是 10，那么你就真的相信了，即使你不是，我也会更成功地让你相信我也是。
The hypothesis is basically that people self-deceive in order to increase the effectiveness of actual deception.
该假设基本上是人们自我欺骗是为了增加实际欺骗的有效性。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
In one other dimension I'll mention too is that animals often take each other at our own word for things.
在另一个方面，我还要提到的是，动物经常互相相信我们自己所说的事情。
If we're self-confident, people assume that we must have the goods to back up that self-confidence.
如果我们自信，人们就会认为我们必须有足够的实力来支持这种自信。
If we're a quivering mass of insecurity, people believe, well, we don't have the goods to back up anything.
如果我们是一群缺乏安全感的人，那么人们就会相信，我们没有足够的财力来支持任何事情。
People use other people's displays of their self-confidence as a cue to their goods.
人们利用别人表现出的自信来暗示他们的商品。
And it's in general a pretty reliable cue, but then there are overestimates and underestimates, as we've talked about, like with narcissism.
一般来说，这是一个相当可靠的线索，但也有高估和低估的情况，正如我们已经讨论过的，就像自恋一样。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We see this with the job candidates.
我们在求职者身上看到了这一点。
You are taught to look very carefully at the application and consider all aspects.
您被教导要非常仔细地查看申请并考虑所有方面。
But ultimately you consider that also in light of how firmly someone believes in the vision of what they're trying to bring to the profession.
但最终你也会考虑到某人对他们试图为职业带来的愿景的坚定信念。
And that's, I think, largely a subconscious process.
我认为，这很大程度上是一个潜意识的过程。
And being aware of it can be helpful, but yeah, when somebody's confident, you tend to think that they're going to get where they say they're going to go.
意识到这一点可能会有所帮助，但是，是的，当某人自信时，你往往会认为他们会到达他们所说的目的地。
And it acts as a bit of a heuristic for not needing ...
它起到了一点启发作用，因为不需要......
the impulse is that one then doesn't need to go vet all the information quite as carefully.
冲动是人们不需要那么仔细地审查所有信息。
But I guess if one is aware of it, then to dig deeper, because it seems like there's a lot of deception going on.
但我想如果有人意识到这一点，那么就应该更深入地挖掘，因为似乎存在很多欺骗行为。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
Yeah, yeah.
是啊，是啊。
Well, and something we talked about earlier, people high on psychopathy are very good at deception.
嗯，我们之前谈到过，精神变态程度高的人非常擅长欺骗。
I don't know whether they are good at self-deception or whether they're just really good deceivers, but they can be very effective.
我不知道他们是否擅长自欺欺人，或者他们是否只是真正的骗子，但他们可以非常有效。
And out in California; you live out in California, I'm sure you've seen your fair share of cases like that.
还有加利福尼亚州；如果你住在加利福尼亚州，我相信你一定见过不少这样的案例。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
I think across today's discussion, various examples pop to mind of seeing these features in humans.
我认为在今天的讨论中，人们脑海中浮现出各种在人类身上看到这些特征的例子。
It's so interesting.
太有趣了。
I find the work that you do incredibly interesting.
我发现你所做的工作非常有趣。
I think this field of evolutionary psychology is fascinating.
我认为进化心理学这个领域很有趣。
And I hope — I said it before, but I'll say it again — I feel like neuroscience and evolutionary psychology are nudging towards one another.
我希望——我之前说过，但我会再说一遍——我觉得神经科学和进化心理学正在相互推动。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it's only a matter of time before they merge in some formal way.
他们以某种正式方式合并只是时间问题。
I mean, there is the work, for instance, on polygamous versus monogamous prairie voles and levels of vasopressin.
我的意思是，例如，有关于一夫多妻制与一夫一妻制的草原田鼠以及加压素水平的研究。
But it's a big leap to go from vasopressin in a prairie vole, no disrespect to that beautiful work, but to humans and say, "Oh, vasopressin inhalers are going to make you monogamous," or something.
但这是一个巨大的飞跃，从草原田鼠身上使用加压素，这并不是对这项美丽工作的不尊重，而是对人类来说，“哦，加压素吸入器将使你成为一夫一妻制”之类的。
I probably got the direction of the effect wrong, but you get the point.
我可能弄错了效果的方向，但你明白了。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
Yeah, no, I think you're absolutely right.
是的，不，我认为你是完全正确的。
And I think it will happen.
我认为这将会发生。
I think it's starting to happen, and it will happen, because getting at the neuroscience is getting at the underlying mechanisms that are driving the process.
我认为这已经开始发生，而且将会发生，因为了解神经科学就是了解驱动这一过程的潜在机制。
What an evolutionary perspective brings to bear is evolved function and ultimate explanation.
进化论的观点所带来的是进化的功能和最终的解释。
The selective forces that created adaptations, the functions of those adaptations and the neuroscience brings, well, what is the underlying machinery that these mechanisms are instantiated in?
创造适应的选择性力量、这些适应的功能和神经科学带来了，那么，这些机制实例化的潜在机制是什么？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
That would be wonderful to collaborate someday.
如果有一天能合作的话那就太好了。
Maybe we'll do a brain imaging study on jealousy, or something and, I don't know, and throw it ...
也许我们会做一个关于嫉妒的大脑成像研究，或者其他什么，我不知道，然后扔掉它......
You're the psychologist; you would come up with a beautiful experimental design.
你是心理学家；你会想出一个漂亮的实验设计。
I'm certain that people are going to want to learn more about your work.
我确信人们会想更多地了解你的工作。
Certainly we will give them links to your social media and other sites.
当然，我们会给他们提供您的社交媒体和其他网站的链接。
You've written a tremendous number of really interesting books.
你写了很多非常有趣的书。
Tell us about your most recent book and maybe some of the others that if people are interested in these topics and they want to learn more, that they could explore.
告诉我们您最近的一本书，也许还有其他一些书，如果人们对这些主题感兴趣并且他们想了解更多，他们可以探索。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
Sure.
当然。
Okay.
好的。
Well, my most recent book is called "When Men Behave Badly: The Hidden Roots of Sexual Deception, Harassment, and Assault." And that book deals with conflict between the sexes, sexual conflict.
嗯，我最近的一本书叫做《当男人行为恶劣时：性欺骗、骚扰和攻击的隐藏根源》。那本书讨论的是两性之间的冲突，性冲突。
It deals with both in what I call mating market conflicts.
它解决了我所说的交配市场冲突。
Some of the topics we've been talking about, deception in Internet dating, and things like that.
我们一直在谈论的一些话题，网络约会中的欺骗，等等。
Second is conflict that occurs within mating relationships of the sort that we've been talking about as well.
其次是我们一直在谈论的那种交配关系中发生的冲突。
Financial infidelity, emotional infidelity, sexual infidelity, coping with conflict within a relationship.
经济不忠、情感不忠、性不忠、处理关系中的冲突。
And I actually have some suggestions for strategies for coping with conflict within a relationship.
事实上，我对处理关系中的冲突的策略有一些建议。
Dealing with the aftermath of breakups.
处理分手后的后果。
Often there's an asymmetry, one person wants to break up, the other doesn't.
往往存在一种不对称，一个人想分手，另一个人不愿意。
I talk about coping in the aftermath.
我谈论的是事后的应对。
Then I also talk in this book, "When Men Behave Badly," about some of the darker sides of human mating, like intimate partner violence, stalking, sexual harassment, sexual coercion.
然后我还在这本书《当男人行为不好时》中谈论了人类交配的一些阴暗面，比如亲密伴侣的暴力、跟踪、性骚扰、性胁迫。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
That's what that book's about.
这就是那本书的内容。
And I think it's gotten well-reviewed, and people find it very useful in understanding what is otherwise a lot of baffling phenomena.
我认为它已经得到了很好的评价，人们发现它对于理解许多令人困惑的现象非常有用。
Why do men and women seem at odds with each other in so many domains?
为什么男人和女人在很多领域都存在分歧？
Why do some of these recurrent forms of sexual conflict occur?
为什么某些反复发生的性冲突会发生？
That's what that book's about.
这就是那本书的内容。
My previous books, so my first book, which I've had the good fortune to be able to revise a couple times, deals more broadly with human mating strategies.
我以前的书，所以我的第一本书，我很幸运能够修改几次，更广泛地讨论了人类的交配策略。
It's called "The Evolution of Desire: Strategies of Human Mating," and gives people a broad overview of what people want in a mate, tactics of attraction, tactics of mate retention, and so forth, throughout the whole mating process; serial mating, causes of divorce, and so forth.
它被称为“欲望的演变：人类交配策略”，让人们对整个交配过程中人们想要的配偶、吸引策略、保留配偶策略等等有一个广泛的概述；连续交配、离婚原因等等。
Then even more broadly, I have a textbook called "Evolutionary Psychology: The New Science of the Mind," which is in its sixth edition right now.
更广泛地说，我有一本名为《进化心理学：新心灵科学》的教科书，目前是第六版。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
And it's the most widely used textbook in evolutionary psychology around North America and Europe, and actually it's been translated even into Arabic and other countries.
它是北美和欧洲使用最广泛的进化心理学教科书，实际上它甚至被翻译成阿拉伯语和其他国家。
That deals somewhat with mating, but also deals with survival problems, our evolved fears and phobias, issues about kin and family, extended family, friendships, social hierarchies, status hierarchies, warfare, and other topics.
这在一定程度上涉及交配，但也涉及生存问题、我们进化而来的恐惧和恐惧症、有关亲属和家庭、大家庭、友谊、社会等级制度、地位等级制度、战争和其他主题的问题。
The "Evolutionary Psychology" textbook is the broadest book.
《进化心理学》教科书是内容最广泛的一本书。
Then maybe the second broadest is "The Evolution of Desire: Strategies of Human Mating," and then for those interested in conflict between the sexes, the latest book, "When Men Behave Badly."
其次，也许第二大的书是《欲望的进化：人类交配的策略》，然后对于那些对两性冲突感兴趣的人来说，最新的书是《当男人行为恶劣时》。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Fantastic.
太棒了。
I love your work.
我喜欢你的工作。
I'm so grateful for the clarity and depth and rigor with which you do it, and you-
我非常感谢你的清晰、深度和严谨，而且你——
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
Thank you.
谢谢你。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
convey it to us.
传达给我们。
I know I speak for many people when I just want to say, Thank you.
我知道当我只想说“谢谢”时，我代表了很多人。
This is a tremendously informative conversation.
这是一次内容丰富的对话。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
Thank you.
谢谢你。
Well, it's been a delight to talk with you, and I hope we do engage in that research collaboration of merging neuroscience and evolutionary psychology.
嗯，很高兴与您交谈，我希望我们能够参与融合神经科学和进化心理学的研究合作。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Let's do it.
让我们开始吧。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
All right.
好吧。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Great.
太棒了。
Thank you, David.
谢谢你，大卫。
David Buss:
大卫·巴斯：
Thank you.
谢谢你。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thank you for joining me for my conversation with Dr. David Buss.
感谢您参加我与大卫·巴斯博士的对话。
Be sure to check out the link to his website in the show caption, and be sure to check out his new book, "When Men Behave Badly: The Hidden Roots of Sexual Deception, Harassment, and Assault." If you're learning from and/or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel.
请务必查看节目标题中的他的网站链接，并一定要查看他的新书《当男人行为恶劣时：性欺骗、骚扰和侵犯的隐藏根源》。如果您正在学习和/或喜欢此播客，请订阅我们的 YouTube 频道。
That's a terrific zero-cost way to support us.
这是支持我们的绝佳零成本方式。
In addition, please put any questions you have in the comment section on YouTube, and also in the comment section you can make suggestions about future topics for the podcast or future podcast guests that you would like us to host.
此外，请在 YouTube 的评论部分提出您的任何问题，并且在评论部分您还可以对播客的未来主题或您希望我们主持的未来播客嘉宾提出建议。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Also, check out our sponsors mentioned at the beginning of the podcast.
另外，请查看播客开头提到的我们的赞助商。
That's one of the best ways to support us.
这是支持我们的最好方式之一。
In addition, please subscribe to the podcast on Apple and/or Spotify, and on Apple, you can leave us up to a five-star review, and you can also provide us questions and feedback.
此外，请订阅Apple和/或Spotify上的播客，在Apple上，您可以给我们留下五星级的评论，也可以向我们提供问题和反馈。
Thank you once again for joining me for my discussion with Dr. David Buss about human mate selection and strategy, and many other extremely interesting topics, today.
再次感谢您今天与我一起与大卫·巴斯博士讨论人类的择偶和策略，以及许多其他非常有趣的话题。
And last but not least, thank you for your interest in science.
最后但并非最不重要的一点是，感谢您对科学的兴趣。
PART 4 OF 4 ENDS
第 4 部分（共 4 部分）结束