Dr. David Berson: Your Brain's Logic & Function
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.
欢迎来到休伯曼实验室播客，我们在这里讨论科学和基于科学的日常生活工具。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm Andrew Huberman and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.
我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。
Today my guest is Dr. David Berson, Professor of Medical Science, Neurobiology and Ophthalmology at Brown University.
今天我的嘉宾是布朗大学医学科学、神经生物学和眼科教授戴维·伯森博士。
Dr. Berson's laboratory is credited with discovering the cells in the eye that set your circadian rhythms.
伯森博士的实验室因发现了眼睛中决定昼夜节律的细胞而受到赞誉。
These are the so-called intrinsically photosensitive melanopsin cells.
这些就是所谓的本质光敏黑视蛋白细胞。
And while that's a mouthful, all you need to know for sake of this introduction is that those are the cells that inform your brain and body about the time of day.
虽然这很拗口，但为了介绍这一点，您需要知道的是，这些细胞告诉您的大脑和身体一天中的时间。
Dr. Berson's laboratory has also made a number of other important discoveries about how we convert our perceptions of the outside world into motor action.
伯森博士的实验室还就我们如何将对外部世界的感知转化为运动行动做出了许多其他重要发现。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
More personally, Dr. Berson has been my go-to resource for all things neuroscience for nearly two decades.
就我个人而言，近二十年来，博森博士一直是我所有神经科学领域的首选资源。
I knew of his reputation as a spectacular researcher for a long period of time, and then many years ago, I cold-called him out of the blue; I basically corralled him into a long conversation over the phone, after which he invited me out to Brown.
我很长一段时间以来都知道他是一位出色的研究员，但很多年前，我突然给他打了电话；我基本上通过电话与他进行了长时间的交谈，之后他邀请我去布朗。
And we've been discussing neuroscience and how the brain works and the emerging new technologies and the emerging new concepts in neuroscience for a very long time now.
我们长期以来一直在讨论神经科学、大脑如何工作以及神经科学中新兴的新技术和新概念。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You're going to realize today why Dr. Berson is my go-to source.
今天你就会明白为什么博森博士是我的首选来源。
He has an exceptionally clear and organized view of how the nervous system works.
他对神经系统的运作方式有着极其清晰和有条理的看法。
There are many, many parts of the nervous system, different nuclei and connections and circuits and chemicals, and so forth.
神经系统有很多很多部分，不同的细胞核和连接、电路和化学物质等等。
But it takes a special kind of person to be able to organize that information into a structured and logical framework that can allow us to make sense of how we function, in terms of what we feel, what we experience, how we move through the world.
但需要一种特殊的人才能将这些信息组织成一个结构化和逻辑的框架，使我们能够根据我们的感受、我们的经历以及我们如何在世界上移动来理解我们的运作方式。
Dr. Berson is truly one-of-a-kind in his ability to synthesize and organize and communicate that information.
博森博士在综合、组织和传达这些信息的能力方面确实是独一无二的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I give him credit as one of my mentors and one of the people that I respect most in the field of science and medical science, generally.
我认为他是我的导师之一，也是我在科学和医学领域最尊敬的人之一。
Today Dr. Berson takes us on a journey from the periphery of the nervous system, meaning from the outside, deep into the nervous system, layer by layer, structure by structure, circuit by circuit, making clear to us how each of these individual circuits work and how they work together as a whole.
今天，博森博士带我们踏上从神经系统外围，即从外部，深入神经系统的旅程，逐层、逐个结构、逐个电路地向我们阐明每个单独的电路如何工作以及它们作为一个整体如何协同工作。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's a really magnificent description that you simply cannot get from any textbook, from any popular book, and frankly as far as I know, from any podcast that currently exists out there.
这是一个非常精彩的描述，你根本无法从任何教科书、任何流行书籍中获得这种描述，坦率地说，据我所知，从目前存在的任何播客中都无法获得这种描述。
So it's a real gift to have this opportunity to learn from Dr. Berson.
因此，有机会向博森博士学习是一份真正的礼物。
Again, I consider him my mentor in the field of learning and teaching neuroscience, and I'm excited for you to learn from him.
我再次将他视为我在神经科学学习和教学领域的导师，我很高兴您能向他学习。
One thing is for certain, by the end of this podcast, you will know far more about how your nervous system works than the vast majority of people out there, including many expert biologists and neuroscientists.
有一点是肯定的，在本播客结束时，您将比绝大多数人（包括许多专家生物学家和神经科学家）更了解神经系统的工作原理。
Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.
在开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It is however part of my desire and effort to bring zero-cost-to-consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public.
然而，我的愿望和努力的一部分是将有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本消费者信息带给公众。
In keeping with that theme, I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast.
为了与这个主题保持一致，我要感谢今天播客的赞助商。
And now for my discussion with Dr. David Berson.
现在我与大卫·伯森博士进行了讨论。
Welcome.
欢迎。
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
Thank you.
谢谢你。
So nice to be here.
很高兴来到这里。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Great to have you.
很高兴有你。
For more than 20 years, you've been my go-to source for all things nervous system, how it works, how it's structured.
20 多年来，您一直是我了解神经系统及其工作原理和结构的所有知识的首选来源。
So today I want to ask you some questions about that.
所以今天我想问你一些关于这个的问题。
I think people would gain a lot of insight into this machine that makes them think and feel and see, et cetera.
我认为人们会对这台机器有更多的了解，这让他们思考、感觉和看到等等。
If you would, could you tell us how we see?
如果愿意的话，您能告诉我们我们是如何看待的吗？
A photon of light enters the eye, what happens?
光子进入眼睛，会发生什么？
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I mean, how is it that I look outside, I see a truck drive by, or I look on the wall and I see a photo of my dog.
我的意思是，当我向外看时，我会看到一辆卡车驶过，或者我在墙上看到一张我的狗的照片。
How does that work?
这是如何运作的？
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
Right.
对。
So this is an old question, obviously, and clearly in the end, the reason you have a visual experience is that your brain has got some pattern of activity that associates with the input from the periphery.
所以这是一个老问题，显然，最后很清楚，你有视觉体验的原因是你的大脑有某种与外围输入相关的活动模式。
But you can have a visual experience with no input from the periphery as well.
但您也可以在没有外围输入的情况下获得视觉体验。
When you're dreaming, you're seeing things that aren't coming through your eyes.
当你做梦时，你会看到一些不是通过你的眼睛看到的东西。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Are those memories?
那些是回忆吗？
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
I would say in a sense they may reflect your visual experience.
我想说，从某种意义上说，它们可能反映了你的视觉体验。
They're not necessarily specific visual memories, but of course they can be.
它们不一定是特定的视觉记忆，但它们当然可以是。
But the point is that the experience of seeing is actually a brain phenomenon.
但重点是，视觉的体验实际上是一种大脑现象。
But of course, under normal circumstances, we see the world because we're looking at it and we are using our eyes to look at it.
但当然，在正常情况下，我们看到世界是因为我们正在看它，我们正在用我们的眼睛来观察它。
And fundamentally, when we're looking at the exterior world, it's what the retina is telling the brain that matters.
从根本上说，当我们观察外部世界时，视网膜告诉大脑的信息才是最重要的。
So there are cells called ganglion cells, these are neurons that are the key cells for communicating between eye and brain.
所以有一种细胞叫做神经节细胞，这些神经元是眼睛和大脑之间交流的关键细胞。
The eye is like the camera, it's detecting the initial image, doing some initial processing, and then that signal gets sent back to the brain proper.
眼睛就像相机一样，它检测初始图像，进行一些初始处理，然后将该信号发送回大脑。
And of course, it's there at the level of the cortex that we have this conscious visual experience.
当然，正是在皮层层面，我们才有了这种有意识的视觉体验。
There are many other places in the brain that get visual input as well, doing other things with that kind of information.
大脑中还有许多其他地方也可以获得视觉输入，并利用此类信息做其他事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So I get a lot of questions about color vision.
所以我收到了很多关于色觉的问题。
If you would, could you explain how is it that we can perceive reds and greens and blues and things of that sort?
如果你愿意，你能解释一下我们是如何感知红色、绿色、蓝色以及诸如此类的东西的吗？
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
So the first thing to understand about light is that it's just a form of electromagnetic radiation.
因此，关于光，首先要了解的是它只是电磁辐射的一种形式。
It's vibrating, it's oscillating, but light-
它在振动，它在振荡，但是很轻——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
When you say it's vibrating, it's oscillating, you mean that photons are actually moving?
当你说它在振动、它在振荡时，你的意思是光子实际上在移动？
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
Well, in a sense, photons, they're certainly moving through space.
嗯，从某种意义上说，光子，它们确实在空间中移动。
We think about photons as particles, and that's one way of thinking about light.
我们将光子视为粒子，这是思考光的一种方式。
But we can also think of it as a wave, like a radio wave.
但我们也可以将其视为一种波，就像无线电波一样。
Either way is acceptable.
无论哪种方式都是可以接受的。
And the radio waves have frequencies, like the frequencies on your radio dial, and certain frequencies in the electromagnetic spectrum can be detected by neurons in the retina.
无线电波具有频率，就像无线电拨号盘上的频率一样，电磁频谱中的某些频率可以被视网膜中的神经元检测到。
Those are the things we see.
这些就是我们所看到的。
But there's still different wavelengths within the light that can be seen by the eye.
但肉眼可见的光中仍然存在不同的波长。
And those different wavelengths are unpacked, in a sense, or decoded by the nervous system to lead to our experience of color.
从某种意义上说，这些不同的波长被神经系统解压或解码，从而产生我们对颜色的体验。
Essentially, different wavelengths give us the sensation of different colors through the auspices of different neurons that are tuned to different wavelengths of light.
从本质上讲，不同的波长通过调节不同波长的光的不同神经元的支持，给我们带来不同颜色的感觉。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So when a little bit of light hits my eye, goes in, the photoreceptors convert that into electrical signal.
因此，当一点点光照射到我的眼睛并进入时，感光器会将其转换为电信号。
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
How is it that a given photon of light eventually leads to the perception of red versus green versus blue?
给定的光光子最终如何导致红色、绿色和蓝色的感知？
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
So if you imagine that in the first layer of the retina where this transformation occurs from electromagnetic radiation into neural signals, that you have different kinds of sensitive cells that are expressing, they're making different molecules within themselves for this express purpose of absorbing photons, which is the first step in the process of seeing.
因此，如果你想象一下，在视网膜的第一层，从电磁辐射到神经信号的转变发生，你有不同种类的敏感细胞在表达，它们在自身内部制造不同的分子，以达到吸收光子的明确目的，这是视觉过程的第一步。
Now, it turns out that altogether there are about five proteins like this that we need to think about in the typical retina.
现在，事实证明，在典型的视网膜中，我们需要考虑总共大约有五种这样的蛋白质。
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
But for seeing color, really it's three of them.
但就看颜色而言，实际上是三个。
So there are three different proteins.
所以存在三种不同的蛋白质。
Each absorbs light with a different preferred frequency.
每个吸收具有不同首选频率的光。
And then the nervous system keeps track of those signals, compares and contrasts them to extract some understanding of the wavelength composition of light.
然后神经系统会跟踪这些信号，对它们进行比较和对比，以获取对光的波长组成的一些理解。
So you can see just by looking at a landscape: "Oh, it must be late in the day because things are looking golden." That's all a function of our absorbing the light that's coming from the world and interpreting that with our brain because of the different composition of the light that's reaching our eyes.
所以你只要看风景就可以知道：“哦，天色一定很晚了，因为一切看起来都是金色的。”这都是我们吸收来自世界的光并用我们的大脑解释它的功能，因为到达我们眼睛的光的成分不同。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is it fair to assume that my perception of red is the same as your perception of red?
假设我对红色的感知与你对红色的感知相同是否公平？
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
Well, that's a great question-
嗯，这是一个很好的问题——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And that mine is better?
我的那个更好？
I'm just kidding.
我只是在开玩笑。
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
It's a great question.
这是一个很好的问题。
It's a deep philosophical question.
这是一个深刻的哲学问题。
It's a question that really probably can't even ultimately be answered by the usual empirical scientific processes because it's really about an individual's experience.
这个问题实际上可能甚至无法通过通常的经验科学过程最终得到回答，因为它实际上与个人的经历有关。
What we can say is that the biological mechanisms that we think are important for seeing color, for example, seem to be very highly similar from one individual to the next, whether it be human beings or other animals.
例如，我们可以说的是，我们认为对看到颜色很重要的生物机制似乎在一个人与另一个人之间都非常相似，无论是人类还是其他动物。
And so we think that the physiological process looks very similar on the front end, but once you're at the level of perception or understanding or experience, that's something that's a little bit tougher to nail down with the sorts of scientific approaches that we approach biological vision with, let's say.
因此，我们认为生理过程在前端看起来非常相似，但是一旦你达到感知、理解或体验的水平，就很难用我们处理生物视觉的科学方法来确定这一点了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You mentioned that there are five different cone types, essentially, cones being the cells that absorb light of different wavelengths.
您提到有五种不同的视锥细胞类型，本质上，视锥细胞是吸收不同波长的光的细胞。
I often wondered when I had my dog, what he saw and how his vision differs from our vision.
我经常想知道我什么时候养了我的狗，他看到了什么以及他的视力与我们的视力有何不同。
And certainly there are animals that can see things that we can't see.
当然，有些动物可以看到我们看不到的东西。
What are some of the more outrageous examples of that?
还有哪些更离谱的例子？
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
Of seeing things we can't?
看到我们看不到的东西？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Seeing things, and in the extreme.
见事，且至极。
Dogs, I'm guessing, see reds more as oranges.
我猜狗更多地将红色视为橙色。
Is that right?
是这样吗？
Because they don't have the same array of neurons that we have for seeing color.
因为它们没有与我们看到颜色相同的神经元阵列。
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
So the first thing is, it's not really five types of cones.
所以第一件事是，它并不是真正的五种锥体。
There are really three types of cones.
实际上存在三种类型的锥体。
And if you look at the way that color vision is thought to work, you can sort of see that it has to be three different signals.
如果你看看色觉的工作方式，你就会发现它必须是三种不同的信号。
There are a couple of other types of pigments.
还有其他几种类型的颜料。
One is really mostly for dim-light vision.
一种实际上主要是为了弱光视觉。
When you're walking around in a moonless night and you're seeing things with very low light, that's the rod cell; that uses its own pigment.
当你在无月的夜晚行走时，你看到的物体的光线非常弱，这就是杆状细胞；使用自己的颜料。
And then there's another class of pigments we'll probably talk about it a little bit later, the melanopsin pigment.
还有另一类色素，我们稍后可能会讨论，即黑视蛋白色素。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I thought you were referring to ultraviolet and infrared, and things of that sort.
我以为你指的是紫外线和红外线之类的东西。
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
Right.
对。
So in the case of a typical, well, let's put it this way.
因此，对于典型的情况，好吧，让我们这样说。
In human beings, most of us have three cone types, and we can see colors that stem from that.
在人类中，我们大多数人都具有三种视锥细胞类型，我们可以看到由此产生的颜色。
Most mammals, including your dog or your cat, there really are only two cone types, and that limits the kind of vision that they can have in the domain of wavelength or colors, we'd say.
我们可以说，大多数哺乳动物，包括你的狗或你的猫，实际上只有两种视锥细胞类型，这限制了它们在波长或颜色领域的视觉类型。
So really a dog sees the world kind of like a particular kind of colorblind human might see the world, because instead of having three channels to compare and contrast, they only have two channels.
因此，狗实际上看到的世界有点像特定类型的色盲人类可能看到的世界，因为它们没有三个通道进行比较和对比，而是只有两个通道。
And that makes it much more difficult to figure out exactly which wavelength you're looking at.
这使得准确找出您正在查看的波长变得更加困难。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do colorblind people suffer much as a consequence of being colorblind?
色盲人会因为色盲而遭受很多痛苦吗？
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
Well, it's like so many other disabilities, the world is built for people of the most common type.
嗯，就像许多其他残疾一样，世界是为最常见类型的人而建的。
So in some cases the expectation can be there that somebody can see something that they won't be able to if they're missing one of their cone types, let's say.
因此，在某些情况下，人们可能会期望某人能够看到一些东西，而如果他们缺少其中一种锥体类型，他们将无法看到某些东西，比方说。
So in those moments, that can be a real problem.
所以在那些时刻，这可能是一个真正的问题。
If there's a lack of contrast to their visual system, they will be blind to that.
如果他们的视觉系统缺乏对比度，他们就会对此视而不见。
In general, it's a fairly modest visual limitation, as things go.
一般来说，就目前情况而言，这是一个相当适度的视觉限制。
For example, if not being able to see acutely can be much more damaging, not being able to read fine print, for example.
例如，如果看东西不清晰可能会造成更大的损害，例如无法阅读细则。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I suppose if I had to give up the ability to see certain colors or give up the ability to see clearly, I'd certainly trade out color for clarity.
我想，如果我必须放弃看到某些颜色的能力或放弃看清楚的能力，我肯定会用颜色来换取清晰度。
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
Of course, color is very meaningful to us as human beings, so we would hate to give it up.
当然，颜色对我们人类来说非常有意义，所以我们不愿意放弃它。
But obviously dogs and cats and all kinds of other mammals do perfectly well in the world.
但显然，狗、猫以及所有其他哺乳动物在世界上都表现得很好。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, because we take care of them; I spent most of my time taking care of that dog.
是的，因为我们照顾他们；我大部分时间都在照顾那只狗。
He took care of me too.
他也很照顾我。
Let's talk about that odd photopigment.
我们来谈谈那个奇怪的感光颜料。
Photopigment of course being the thing that absorbs light of a particular wavelength.
感光颜料当然是吸收特定波长的光的物质。
And let's talk about these specialized ganglion cells that communicate certain types of information from eye to the brain, that are so important for so many things.
让我们来谈谈这些特殊的神经节细胞，它们将某些类型的信息从眼睛传递到大脑，这对很多事情都非常重要。
What I'm referring to here, of course, is your codiscovery of the so-called intrinsically photosensitive cells, the neurons in the eye that do so many of the things that don't actually have to do with perception but have to do with important biological functions.
当然，我在这里指的是你们对所谓的本质光敏细胞的共同发现，即眼睛中的神经元，它们执行许多实际上与感知无关但与重要的生物功能有关的事情。
What I would love for you to do is explain to me why ...
我希望你向我解释一下为什么......
once I heard you say, "We have a bit of fly eye in our eye," and you showed this slide of a giant fly from a horror movie trying to attack this woman.
有一次我听到你说，“我们的眼睛里有一点苍蝇的眼睛”，你展示了一张恐怖电影中一只巨大苍蝇试图攻击这个女人的幻灯片。
And maybe it was an eye also, so what does it mean that we have a bit of a fly eye in our eye?
也许它也是一只眼睛，那么我们的眼睛里有一点苍蝇的眼睛意味着什么呢？
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
Yeah, so this last pigment is a really peculiar one.
是的，最后一种颜料非常奇特。
One can think about it as really the initial sensitive element in a system that's designed to tell your brain about how bright things are in your world.
人们可以将其视为系统中的第一个敏感元件，该系统旨在告诉您的大脑世界上的事物有多明亮。
And the thing that's really peculiar about this pigment is that it's in the wrong place, in a sense.
从某种意义上说，这种颜料的真正奇特之处在于它出现在错误的位置。
When you think about the structure of the retina, you think about a layer of cake, essentially.
当你思考视网膜的结构时，本质上你会想到一层蛋糕。
You've got this thin membrane at the back of your eye, but it's actually a stack of thin layers.
你的眼睛后面有一层薄膜，但它实际上是一堆薄层。
And the outermost of those layers is where these photoreceptors you were talking about earlier are sitting.
这些层的最外层就是您之前讨论的光感受器所在的位置。
That's where the film of your camera is, essentially.
本质上，这就是相机胶卷所在的位置。
That's where the photons do their magic with the photopigments and turn it into a neural signal.
这就是光子对感光色素发挥作用并将其转化为神经信号的地方。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I like that.
我喜欢这样。
I've never really thought of the photoreceptors as the film of the camera, but that makes sense.
我从来没有真正将感光器视为相机的胶片，但这是有道理的。
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
Or the sensitive chip on, a CCD chip in your cell phone.
或者是手机上的敏感芯片，即 CCD 芯片。
It's the surface on which the light pattern is imaged by the optics of the eye.
它是眼睛的光学系统在其上成像光图案的表面。
And now you've got an array of sensors that's capturing that information and creating a bitmap, essentially.
现在您已经有了一组传感器，它们可以捕获该信息并创建位图。
But now it's in neural signals distributed across the surface of the retina.
但现在它是分布在视网膜表面的神经信号中。
So all of that was known to be going on 150 years ago.
所以众所周知，这一切都发生在 150 年前。
A couple of types of preceptors, cones and rods.
几种类型的感受器、视锥细胞和视杆细胞。
If you look a little bit more closely, three types of cones.
如果你仔细观察的话，会发现三种类型的视锥细胞。
That's where the transformation from electromagnetic radiation to neural signals was thought to take place.
人们认为这就是从电磁辐射到神经信号的转变发生的地方。
But it turns out that this last photopigment is in the other end of the retina, the innermost part of the retina.
但事实证明，最后的感光色素位于视网膜的另一端，即视网膜的最里面的部分。
That's where the so-called ganglion cells are.
这就是所谓的神经节细胞所在的地方。
Those are the cells that talk to the brain, the ones that actually can communicate directly what information comes to them from the photoreceptors.
这些是与大脑对话的细胞，实际上可以直接传达从光感受器传来的信息。
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
And here you've got a case where actually some of the output neurons that we didn't think had any business being directly sensitive to light were actually making this photopigment, absorbing light and converting that to neural signals and sending it to the brain.
这里有一个例子，实际上一些我们认为与光没有直接关系的输出神经元实际上正在制造这种感光色素，吸收光并将其转换为神经信号并将其发送到大脑。
So that made it pretty surprising and unexpected.
所以这让人非常惊讶和意外。
But there are many surprising things about these cells.
但这些细胞有许多令人惊讶的事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And what is the relationship to the fly eye?
又和蝇眼有什么关系呢？
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
Right.
对。
So the link there is that if you ask how the photopigment now communicates downstream from the initial absorption event to get to the electrical signal, that's a complex cellular process, involves many chemical steps.
因此，如果你问感光色素现在如何从初始吸收事件向下游传递以获取电信号，这是一个复杂的细胞过程，涉及许多化学步骤。
And if you look at how photoreceptors in our eyes work, you can see what that cascade is, how that chain works.
如果你观察我们眼睛中的光感受器是如何工作的，你就能看到级联是什么，链条是如何工作的。
If you look in the eyes of flies or other insects, or other invertebrates, there's a very similar kind of chain, but the specifics of how the signals get from the absorption event by the pigment to the electrical response that the nervous system can understand, are characteristically different between fuzzy, furry creatures like us, and insects, for example, like the fly.
如果你观察苍蝇或其他昆虫或其他无脊椎动物的眼睛，就会发现有一条非常相似的链条，但信号如何从色素的吸收事件到神经系统可以理解的电反应的具体细节，在像我们这样的毛茸茸的生物和昆虫（例如苍蝇）之间存在着典型的不同。
So these funny extra photoreceptors that are in the wrong layer doing something completely different are actually using a chemical cascade that looks much more like what you would see in a fly photoreceptor than what you would see in a human photoreceptor, a rod or a cone, for example.
因此，这些有趣的额外光感受器在错误的层中做着完全不同的事情，实际上是在使用化学级联，它看起来更像你在苍蝇光感受器中看到的东西，而不是你在人类光感受器（例如杆或锥体）中看到的东西。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So it sounds like it's a very primitive aspect of biology that we maintain.
所以听起来这是我们所维护的生物学的一个非常原始的方面。
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
Exactly right.
完全正确。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And despite the fact that dogs can't see as many colors as we can, and cats can't see as many colors as we can, we have all this extravagant stuff for seeing color.
尽管狗不能像我们一样看到尽可能多的颜色，猫也不能像我们一样看到尽可能多的颜色，但我们拥有所有这些奢侈的东西来看到颜色。
And then you got this other pigment sitting in the wrong, not wrong, but in a different part of the eye, processing light very differently and sending that information into the brain.
然后你将另一种色素放置在错误的地方，不是错误的地方，而是在眼睛的不同部位，以非常不同的方式处理光线并将信息发送到大脑中。
So what do these cells do?
那么这些细胞有什么作用呢？
I mean, presumably they're there for a reason.
我的意思是，想必他们的存在是有原因的。
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
They are.
他们是。
And the interesting thing is that one cell type, like this, carrying one kind of signal, which I would call a brightness signal, essentially, can do many things in the brain.
有趣的是，像这样的一种细胞类型携带一种信号，我将其称为亮度信号，本质上可以在大脑中做很多事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
When you say brightness signal, you mean that it ...
当你说亮度信号时，你的意思是它......
Right now I have these cell ...
现在我有这些细胞...
Do I have these cells?
我有这些细胞吗？
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
You do.
你会的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Of course not.
当然不是。
I'm joking.
我是在开玩笑。
I hope I have these cells in my eye; and they're paying attention to how bright it is overall, but they're not paying attention, for instance, to the edge of your ear or what else is going on in the room.
我希望我的眼睛里有这些细胞；他们会关注整体的亮度，但不会关注你的耳朵边缘或房间里发生的其他事情。
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
Right.
对。
So it's the difference between knowing what the objects are on the table and knowing whether it's bright enough to be daylight right now.
因此，这就是知道桌子上的物体是什么和知道它现在是否足够亮以达到日光之间的区别。
So why does your nervous system need to know whether it's daylight right now?
那么为什么你的神经系统需要知道现在是否是白天呢？
Well, one thing that needs to know, that is your circadian clock.
好吧，需要知道的一件事就是你的生物钟。
If you travel across time zones to Europe, now your internal clock thinks it's California time, but the rotation of the earth is for a different part of the planet.
如果您跨越时区前往欧洲，现在您的生物钟认为现在是加利福尼亚时间，但地球的自转适用于地球的不同部分。
The rising and setting of the sun is not at all what your body is anticipating.
太阳的升起和落下根本不是你的身体所预期的。
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
So you've got an internal representation of the rotation of the earth in your own brain.
所以你的大脑中已经有了地球自转的内部表征。
That's your circadian system.
这就是你的昼夜节律系统。
It's keeping time.
就是要抓紧时间。
But now you've played a trick on your nervous system, you put yourself in a different place where the sun is rising at the, quote, wrong time.
但现在你对你的神经系统开了个玩笑，你把自己放在了一个不同的地方，太阳在错误的时间升起。
Well, that's not good for you.
嗯，这对你不好。
So you got to get back on track.
所以你必须回到正轨。
One of the things this system does is sends a, "Oh, it's daylight now," signal to the brain, which compares with its internal clock.
该系统所做的事情之一就是向大脑发送“哦，现在是白天”信号，并将其与内部时钟进行比较。
And if that's not right, it tweaks the clock gradually until you get over your jet lag and you feel back on track again.
如果情况不对，它会逐渐调整时钟，直到您克服时差并感觉再次回到正轨。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So the jet lag case makes a lot of sense to me, but presumably these elements didn't evolve for jet lag.
所以时差的情况对我来说很有意义，但想必这些元素并不是因为时差而进化的。
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What are they doing on a day-to-day basis?
他们每天都在做什么？
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
Right.
对。
Well, one way to think about this is that the clock that you have in, not just your brain, in all the cells, almost all of the cells of your body, they're all oscillating, they're all-
好吧，思考这个问题的一种方式是，你的时钟，不仅仅是你的大脑，所有的细胞，几乎你身体的所有细胞，它们都在振荡，它们都——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They've got little clocks in them.
他们里面有小钟。
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
Little clocks in themselves, they're all clocks.
小钟本身就是钟。
They need to be synchronized appropriately.
它们需要适当同步。
And the whole thing has to be built in biological machinery.
整个事情必须建立在生物机器上。
This is actually a beautiful story about how gene expression can control gene expression.
这实际上是一个关于基因表达如何控制基因表达的美丽故事。
And if you set it up right, you can set up a little thing that just sort of hums along at a particular frequency.
如果你设置得当，你可以设置一个小东西，让它以特定的频率嗡嗡作响。
In our case, it's humming along at 24 hours because that's how our earth rotates, and it's all built into our biology.
在我们的例子中，它 24 小时都在嗡嗡作响，因为我们的地球就是这样旋转的，而且这一切都内置于我们的生物学中。
So this is great, but the reality is that the clock can only be so good.
所以这很棒，但现实情况是时钟只能这么好。
I mean, we're talking about biology here.
我的意思是，我们在这里谈论生物学。
It's not precision engineering.
这不是精密工程。
And so it can be a little bit off.
所以它可能有点偏离。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, also it's in our brain, so it doesn't have access to any regular unerring signal.
嗯，它也在我们的大脑中，所以它无法访问任何常规的无误信号。
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
Well, if in the absence of the rising and setting of the sun, it doesn't.
好吧，如果没有日出和日落，那就不会了。
If you put someone in a cave, their biological clock will keep time to within a handful of minutes of 24 hours.
如果你把某人放在山洞里，他们的生物钟会在 24 小时内保持几分钟的误差。
That's no problem for one day.
一天都不是问题。
But if this went on without any correction, eventually you'd be out of phase.
但如果这种情况继续下去而不进行任何纠正，最终你就会脱节。
And this is actually one of the things that blind patients often complain about, if they've got retinal blindness, is insomnia and .
这实际上是盲人患者经常抱怨的事情之一，如果他们患有视网膜失明，就会失眠......
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because their brain's awake in the middle of the night, yeah.
因为他们的大脑在半夜是醒着的，是的。
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
Exactly.
正是如此。
They're not synchronized.
它们不同步。
Their clock is there, but they're drifting out of phase because their clock's only good to 24.2 hours or 23.8 hours.
他们的时钟在那里，但他们正在偏离相位，因为他们的时钟只适合 24.2 小时或 23.8 小时。
Little by little they're drifting.
渐渐地，他们就漂流了。
So you need a synchronization signal.
所以你需要一个同步信号。
So even if you never cross time zones, and of course we didn't back on the savanna, we stayed within walking distance of where we were, you still need a synchronizer because otherwise you have nothing to actually confirm when the rising and the setting of the sun is.
因此，即使您从未跨越时区，当然我们也没有回到大草原，我们仍然在步行距离之内，您仍然需要一个同步器，因为否则您无法实际确认太阳的升起和日落时间。
That's what you're trying to synchronize yourself to.
这就是你试图使自己同步的目标。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm fascinated by the circadian clock and the fact that all the cells of our body have essentially a 24-hour-ish clock in them.
我对生物钟很着迷，我们身体的所有细胞本质上都有一个 24 小时制的时钟。
We hear a lot about these circadian rhythms and circadian clocks, the fact that we need light input from these special neurons in order to set the clock.
我们听到很多关于这些昼夜节律和昼夜节律时钟的信息，事实上我们需要来自这些特殊神经元的光输入来设置时钟。
But I've never really heard it described how the clock itself works and how the clock signals to all the rest of the body when the liver should be doing one thing and when the stomach should be doing another.
但我从来没有真正听到它描述过时钟本身是如何工作的，以及时钟如何向身体的其他部位发出信号，什么时候肝脏应该做一件事，什么时候胃应该做另一件事。
I know you've done some work on the clock, so if you would just maybe briefly describe where the clock is, what it does, and some of the top contour of how it tells the cells of the body what to do.
我知道你已经对时钟做了一些工作，所以你可以简单地描述一下时钟在哪里，它做什么，以及它如何告诉身体细胞做什么的一些顶部轮廓。
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
So the first thing to say is that, as you said, the clock is all over the place.
所以首先要说的是，正如你所说，时钟无处不在。
Most of the tissues in your body have clocks.
你体内的大部分组织都有时钟。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, we probably have what, millions of clocks in our body-
是的，我们体内可能有数百万个时钟——
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
Yeah, I would say that's probably fair.
是的，我想说这可能是公平的。
You have millions of cell types, you probably have millions of clocks.
你有数百万种细胞类型，你可能有数百万个时钟。
But the role of the central pacemaker for the circadian system is to coordinate all of these.
但昼夜节律系统的中央起搏器的作用是协调所有这些。
And there's a little nucleus, a little collection of nerve cells in your brain that's called the suprachiasmatic nucleus, the SCN.
大脑中有一个小核，一个神经细胞的小集合，称为视交叉上核（SCN）。
And it is sitting in a funny place for the rest of the structures in the nervous system that get direct retinal input.
对于神经系统中获得直接视网膜输入的其他结构来说，它处于一个有趣的位置。
It's sitting in the hypothalamus, which you can think about as sort of the great coordinator of drives and-
它位于下丘脑，你可以将其视为驱动力的伟大协调者，并且-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The source of all our pleasures and all our problems, or most our problems.
我们所有快乐和所有问题或大多数问题的根源。
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
Right.
对。
Yes, it really is.
是的，确实如此。
But it's sort of deep in your brain, things that drive you to do things.
但它在你的大脑深处，是驱使你去做事情的东西。
If you're freezing cold, you put on a coat, you shiver, all these things are coordinated by the hypothalamus.
如果你冷得要命，你就会穿上外套，你会发抖，所有这些都是由下丘脑协调的。
So this pathway that we're talking about from the retina, and from these peculiar cells that are encoding light intensity, are sending signals directly into a center that's surrounded by all of these centers that control autonomic nervous system and your hormonal systems.
因此，我们正在谈论的来自视网膜和这些编码光强度的特殊细胞的这条通路，将信号直接发送到一个中心，该中心被控制自主神经系统和荷尔蒙系统的所有这些中心包围。
So this is a part of your visual system that doesn't really reach the level of consciousness.
所以这是你视觉系统的一部分，并没有真正达到意识水平。
It's not something you think about.
这不是你想的事情。
It's happening under the radar kind of all the time.
它一直在雷达下发生。
And the signal is working its way into this central clock coordinating center.
信号正在进入这个中央时钟协调中心。
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
Now what happens then is not that well understood, but it's clear that this is a neural center that has the same ability to communicate with other parts of your brain as any other neural center.
现在我们还不太清楚接下来会发生什么，但很明显，这是一个神经中枢，它与任何其他神经中枢一样具有与大脑其他部分进行交流的能力。
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
And clearly there are circuits that involve connections between neurons that are conventional, but in addition it's quite clear that there are also sort of humoral effects, that things are oozing out of the cells in this center and maybe into the circulation or just diffusing through the brain to some extent that can also affect neurons elsewhere.
显然，神经元之间存在涉及传统连接的回路，但除此之外，很明显还有某种体液效应，物质从该中心的细胞中渗出，可能进入循环系统，或者只是在某种程度上扩散到大脑中，这也会影响其他地方的神经元。
But the hypothalamus uses everything to control the rest of the body.
但下丘脑利用一切来控制身体的其他部分。
And that's true of the suprachiasmatic nucleus, this circadian center, as well.
对于视交叉上核（这个昼夜节律中心）来说也是如此。
It can get its fingers into the autonomic nervous system, the humoral system, and of course up to the centers of the brain that organize coordinated rational behavior.
它可以触及自主神经系统、体液系统，当然还有组织协调理性行为的大脑中心。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So if I understand correctly, we have this group of cells, the suprachiasmatic nucleus.
所以如果我理解正确的话，我们有这组细胞，即视交叉上核。
It's got a 24-hour rhythm, that rhythm is more or less matched to what's going on in our external world by this specialized set of neurons in our eye.
它有 24 小时的节律，这种节律或多或少与我们眼睛中这组专门的神经元在我们外部世界发生的事情相匹配。
But then the master clock itself, the SCN, releases things in the blood, humoral signals that go out various places in the body.
但随后主时钟本身（视交叉上核）会释放血液中的物质，即体液信号，这些信号会传出身体的各个部位。
And then you said to the autonomic system, which is regulating more or less how alert or calm we are, as well as our thinking and our cognition.
然后你对自主系统说，它或多或少地调节着我们的警觉或冷静程度，以及我们的思维和认知。
So I'd love to talk to you about the autonomic part, presumably that's through melatonin, it's through adrenaline, how is it that this clock is impacting how the autonomic system, how alert or calm we feel?
所以我很想和你谈谈自主神经部分，大概是通过褪黑激素，通过肾上腺素，这个时钟是如何影响自主系统的，我们感觉有多警觉或平静？
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
Right.
对。
So there are pathways by which the suprachiasmatic nucleus can access both the parasympathetic and sympathetic nervous system.
因此，视交叉上核可以通过某些途径进入副交感神经和交感神经系统。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Just so people know that sympathetic nervous system is the one that tends to make us more alert, and that parasympathetic nervous system is the portion of the autonomous nervous system makes us feel more calm, in broad terms.
人们知道，从广义上讲，交感神经系统往往使我们更加警觉，而副交感神经系统是自主神经系统的一部分，使我们感到更加平静。
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
Yeah, to first approximation.
是的，初步近似。
So both of these systems are within the grasp of the circadian system through hypothalamic circuits.
因此，这两个系统都通过下丘脑回路受到昼夜节律系统的控制。
One of the circuits that will be, I think, of particular interest to some of your listeners is a pathway that involves this sympathetic branch of the autonomic nervous system, the fight-or-flight system that is actually through a very circuitous route innervating the pineal gland, which is sitting in the middle of your brain.
我认为，一些听众特别感兴趣的电路之一是涉及自主神经系统交感神经分支的通路，即战斗或逃跑系统，实际上是通过一条非常迂回的路线支配位于大脑中部的松果体。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The so-called third eye.
所谓第三只眼。
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
Right, so this is-
对了，所以这是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We'll have to get back to why it's called the third eye, because ...
我们必须回到为什么它被称为第三只眼，因为......
Yeah.
是的。
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
That's an interesting .
这是一个有趣的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You can't call something the third eye and just-
你不能称某些东西为第三只眼，只是——
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
Just leave it there.
把它留在那里。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Just leave it there.
把它留在那里。
Right.
正确的。
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
Anyway, this is the major source of melatonin in your body.
无论如何，这是你体内褪黑激素的主要来源。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So light comes into my eye.
所以光进入我的眼睛。
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Passed off to the suprachiasmatic nucleus, essentially, not the light itself, but the signal representing the light.
本质上传递到视交叉上核的不是光本身，而是代表光的信号。
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
Sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Then the SCN, the suprachiasmatic nucleus can impact the melatonin system via the pineal.
然后视交叉上核（SCN）可以通过松果体影响褪黑激素系统。
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
Right.
对。
The way this is seen is that if you were to measure your melatonin level over the course of the day, if you could do this hour by hour, you'd see that it's really low during the day, very high at night.
看到这一点的方式是，如果你要在一天中测量你的褪黑激素水平，如果你能每小时这样做，你会发现它在白天非常低，在晚上非常高。
But if you get up in the middle of the night and go to the bathroom and turn on the bright fluorescent light, your melatonin level is slammed to the floor.
但如果你半夜起床去洗手间并打开明亮的荧光灯，你的褪黑激素水平就会急剧下降。
Light is directly impacting your hormonal levels.
光直接影响您的荷尔蒙水平。
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
It's directly impacting your hormonal levels through this mechanism that we just described.
它通过我们刚才描述的机制直接影响您的荷尔蒙水平。
So this is one of the routes by which light can act on your hormonal status, through pathways that are completely beyond what you normally would think about.
因此，这是光影响荷尔蒙状态的途径之一，其途径完全超出了您通常的想象。
Right?
正确的？
You're thinking about the things in the bathroom.
你正在考虑浴室里的事情。
"Oh, there's the toothbrush, there's the tube of toothpaste." But meanwhile, this other system is just counting photons and saying, "Oh wow, there's a lot of photons right now.
“哦，那是牙刷，那是一管牙膏。”但与此同时，另一个系统只是在计算光子并说：“哇哦，现在有很多光子。
Let's shut down the melatonin release."
让我们停止褪黑激素的释放。”
PART 1 OF 4 ENDS Andrew Huberman:
第 1 部分（共 4 部分）结束 Andrew Huberman：
This is one of the main reasons why I've encouraged people to avoid bright light exposure in the middle of the night.
这是我鼓励人们避免在半夜暴露在强光下的主要原因之一。
Not just blue light, but bright light of any wavelength.
不仅仅是蓝光，还有任何波长的亮光。
Because there's this myth out there that blue light, because it's the optimal signal for activating this pathway and shutting down melatonin, is the only wavelength of light that can shut it down.
因为有这样一个神话，即蓝光是激活该通路并关闭褪黑激素的最佳信号，是唯一可以关闭该通路的光波长。
But am I correct in thinking that if a light is bright enough, it doesn't matter if it's blue light, green light, purple light, even red light; you're going to slam melatonin down to the ground, which is not a good thing to happen in the middle of the night.
但我的想法是否正确，如果光足够亮，无论是蓝光、绿光、紫光，甚至红光都没关系；只要光足够亮，它就可以了。你会把褪黑素猛地扔到地上，这在半夜发生可不是什么好事。
Correct?
正确的？
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
Right, right.
对，对。
Yeah.
是的。
I mean, any light will affect the system to some extent.
我的意思是，任何光线都会在某种程度上影响系统。
The blue light is somewhat more effective.
蓝光稍微有效一些。
But don't fool yourself into thinking that if you use red light, that means you're avoiding the effect.
但不要欺骗自己，认为如果使用红光，就意味着可以避免这种效应。
It's certainly still there.
它肯定还在那里。
And certainly if it's very bright, it'll be more effective in driving the system than dim blue light would be.
当然，如果它非常亮，它会比暗淡的蓝光更有效地驱动系统。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Interesting.
有趣。
A lot of people wear blue blockers.
很多人都穿着蓝色阻滞剂。
And in a kind of odd twist of misinformation out there, a lot of people wear blue blockers during the middle of the day, which basically makes no sense, because during the middle of the day is when you want to get a lot of bright light, including blue light into your eyes.
在一种奇怪的错误信息中，很多人在中午佩戴蓝色阻挡器，这基本上没有意义，因为在中午你想要获得大量的明亮光线，包括进入你的眼睛的蓝光。
Correct?
正确的？
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
And not just for the reasons we've been talking about in terms of circadian effects, there are major effects of light on mood.
不仅仅是因为我们一直在谈论昼夜节律影响的原因，光对情绪也有重大影响。
And seasonal effective disorder apparently is essentially a reflection of this same system in reverse.
季节性有效紊乱显然本质上是同一系统的反向反映。
If you're living in the northern climes, and you're not getting that much light during the middle of the winter in Stockholm, you might be prone to depression.
如果您生活在北方地区，并且在斯德哥尔摩的仲冬期间没有那么多阳光，您可能容易患上抑郁症。
And phototherapy might be just the ticket for you.
光疗可能正适合您。
And that's because there's a direct effect of light on mood.
这是因为光线对情绪有直接影响。
There's an example where if you don't have enough light, it's a problem.
有一个例子，如果光线不足，就会出现问题。
So I think you're exactly right.
所以我认为你是完全正确的。
It's not about is light good or bad for you, it's about what kind of light, and when, that makes the difference.
重要的不是光对你来说是好还是坏，而是什么样的光以及什么时候会产生影响。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
The general rule of thumb that I've been living by is to get as much bright light in my eyes, ideally from sunlight, anytime I want to be alert, and doing exactly the opposite when I want to be asleep.
我一直遵循的一般经验法则是，在我想要保持警惕的任何时候，让尽可能多的明亮光线进入我的眼睛，最好是阳光，而当我想睡觉时，则做相反的事情。
Or getting drowsy.
或者变得昏昏欲睡。
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
And there are aspects of this that span out way beyond the conversation we're having now to things like this.
其中的某些方面超出了我们现在正在进行的对话范围。
It turns out that the incidence of myopia.
原来，近视的发生。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Nearsightedness.
近视。
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
Nearsightedness, right, is strongly related to the amount of time that kids spend outdoors.
近视，没错，与孩子在户外度过的时间密切相关。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In what direction of effect?
作用在什么方向？
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
The more they spend time outdoors, the less nearsightedness they have.
他们在户外呆的时间越多，近视就越少。
So this is all part-
所以这就是全部的一部分-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is that because they're viewing things at a distance, or because they're getting a lot of blue light, uh, sunlight?
这是因为他们在远处观察事物，还是因为他们接受了大量的蓝光，呃，阳光？
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
It's a great question.
这是一个很好的问题。
It is not fully resolved what the basis of that epidemiological finding is.
该流行病学发现的基础是什么尚未完全解决。
One possibility is the amount of light, which would make me think about this melanopsin system again.
一种可能性是光量，这会让我再次思考这个黑视蛋白系统。
But it might very well be a question of accommodation.
但这很可能是一个住宿问题。
That is the process by which you focus on near or far things.
这就是你关注近处或远处事物的过程。
If you're never outdoors, everything is nearby.
如果您从不外出，一切都在附近。
If you're outdoors, you're focusing far.
如果你在户外，你的焦点就会很远。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So this is here on your phone.
所以这是你手机上的。
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
Right, exactly.
对，完全正确。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There's a tremendous amount of interest these days in watches and things that count steps.
如今，人们对手表和计步器产生了极大的兴趣。
I'm beginning to realize that we should probably have a device that can count photons during the day, and can also count photons at night and tell us, "Hey, you're getting too many photons.
我开始意识到，我们可能应该有一种设备，可以在白天计算光子，也可以在晚上计算光子，并告诉我们，“嘿，你得到了太多的光子。
You're going to shut down your melatonin at night." Or, "You're not getting enough photons today.
你会在晚上关闭褪黑激素。”或者，“你今天没有获得足够的光子。
You didn't get enough bright light," whether or not it's from artificial light or from sunlight.
你没有获得足够的明亮光线”，无论是来自人造光还是阳光。
That, I guess that, where would you put it?
那个，我想那个，你会把它放在哪里？
I guess you put it on the top of your head, or you'd probably want it someplace outward-facing.
我猜你把它放在头顶上，或者你可能想把它放在朝外的地方。
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
Probably what you need is as many photons over as much of the retina as possible, to recruit as much of the system as possible.
也许你需要的是尽可能多的光子覆盖尽可能多的视网膜，以招募尽可能多的系统。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In thinking about other effects of this nonimage-forming pathway that involves these special cells in the eye and the SCN, you had a paper a few years ago looking at retinal input to an area of the brain, which has a fancy name, the perihabenula.
在思考这种涉及眼睛和视交叉上核中这些特殊细胞的非成像途径的其他影响时，几年前你曾发表过一篇论文，研究了视网膜对大脑某个区域的输入，该区域有一个奇特的名字：缰核周围。
But names don't necessarily matter.
但名字并不一定重要。
That had some important effects on mood and other aspects of light.
这对情绪和光的其他方面产生了一些重要影响。
Maybe you could tell us a little bit about what is the perihabenula.
也许你可以告诉我们一些关于什么是缰核周围的信息。
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
Oh, wow.
哦，哇。
So that's a fancy term, but I think the way to think about this it is a chunk of the brain that is sitting as part of a bigger chunk, that's really the linker between peripheral sensory input of all kinds.
所以这是一个奇特的术语，但我认为思考这个问题的方式是大脑的一块作为更大块的一部分，这实际上是各种外围感觉输入之间的链接器。
Virtually all kinds, whether it's auditory input or tactile input or visual input to the region of your brain, the cortex that allows you to think about these things and make plans around them, and to integrate them, and that kind of thing.
几乎所有种类，无论是听觉输入、触觉输入还是视觉输入到你的大脑区域，皮质让你思考这些事情并围绕它们制定计划，并将它们整合起来，等等。
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
So we've known about a pathway that gets from the retina through this sort of linker center.
所以我们已经知道了一条从视网膜通过这种连接中心的路径。
It's called the thalamus, and then on-
它叫做丘脑，然后-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's like a train station.
这就像一个火车站。
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
Exactly.
正是如此。
But you want to arrive at the destination.
但你想到达目的地。
Right now you're at Grand Central and now you can do your thing as you're up at the cortex.
现在你在中央车站，现在你可以在大脑皮层做你的事情了。
So this is the standard pattern.
所以这是标准模式。
You have sensory input coming from the periphery.
你有来自外围的感官输入。
You've got these peripheral elements that are doing the initial stages of the-
这些外围元素正在执行初始阶段-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The eye, the nose.
眼睛，鼻子。
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
Your skin of your fingertips, right?
你指尖的皮肤，对吗？
The taste buds on your tongue, they're taking this raw information in, and they're doing some preprocessing, maybe, or the early circuits are.
你舌头上的味蕾，它们正在吸收这些原始信息，并且它们可能正在做一些预处理，或者早期的电路正在做一些预处理。
But eventually most of these signals have to pass through the gateway to the cortex, which is the thalamus.
但最终大部分信号必须通过大脑皮层的门户，即丘脑。
And we've known for years, for decades, many decades, what the major throughput pathway from the retina to the cortex is and where it ends up.
多年来，我们已经知道从视网膜到皮层的主要吞吐量路径是什么以及它最终到达哪里。
It ends up in the visual cortex.
它最终到达视觉皮层。
You pat the back of your head, that's where the receiving center is for the main pathway from retina to cortex.
你拍拍后脑勺，那里是视网膜到皮层主要通路的接收中枢。
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
But wait a minute, there's more.
但等一下，还有更多。
There's this little side pathway that goes through a different part of that linking thalamus center-
有一条小侧路穿过连接丘脑中心的不同部分-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's like a local train from Grand Central to-
这就像从中央车站到-的当地火车
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
It's in a weird part of the neighborhood, right?
它位于附近一个奇怪的地方，对吗？
It's like a little trunk line that branches off and goes out into the hinterlands, and it's going to the part of this linker center that's talking to a completely different part of cortex.
它就像一条小干线，分支并延伸到腹地，它会到达连接器中心与皮层完全不同的部分进行对话的部分。
Way up front, frontal lobe, which is much more involved in things like planning, or self-image, or-
最前面的是额叶，它更多地涉及诸如计划、自我形象或-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Self-image, literally how one thinks about-
自我形象，字面意思是一个人如何思考——
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
Views oneself.
自己看自己。
Do you feel good about yourself?
你自我感觉良好吗？
Or what's your plan for next Thursday?
或者你下周四有什么计划？
It's a very high-level center in the highest level of your nervous system, and this is the region that is getting input from this pathway, which is mostly worked out in its function by Samer Hattar's lab.
它是神经系统最高层的一个非常高级的中心，这是从这条通路获取输入的区域，该通路的功能主要是由 Samer Hattar 的实验室研究出来的。
I know you had him on the podcast.
我知道你在播客上邀请了他。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We didn't talk about this pathway-
我们没有谈论这条路-
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
This pathway.
这条路。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
At all.
完全没有。
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
Right.
对。
So Fernandez and Samar and the folks that work with them were able to show that this pathway doesn't just exist and get you to a weird place.
因此，费尔南德斯和萨马尔以及与他们一起工作的人们能够证明，这条途径不仅存在并能把你带到一个奇怪的地方。
But if you activate it at the wrong time of day, animals can become depressed.
但如果你在一天中错误的时间激活它，动物就会变得抑郁。
And if you silence it under the right circumstances, then weird lighting cycles that would normally make them act sort of depressed no longer have that effect.
如果你在适当的情况下将其静音，那么通常会使他们表现得有点沮丧的奇怪的照明周期就不再具有这种效果。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So it sounds to me like there's this pathway from eye to this unusual train route, through the structure we call the thalamus, then up to the front of the brain that relates to things of self-perception, kind of higher-level functions.
因此，在我看来，有一条通路从眼睛到这条不寻常的火车路线，穿过我们称为丘脑的结构，然后到达与自我感知相关的大脑前部，即高级功能。
I find that really interesting because most of what I think about when I think about these fancy ...
我发现这真的很有趣，因为当我想到这些奇特的东西时，我想到的大部分都是......
Well, or these primitive, rather, neurons that don't pay attention to the shapes of things, but instead to brightness, I think of, well, it regulates melatonin, right?
好吧，或者这些原始的神经元不关注事物的形状，而是关注亮度，我想，好吧，它调节褪黑激素，对吗？
Circadian clock, mood, hunger, the really kind of vegetative stuff, if you will.
生物钟、情绪、饥饿，如果你愿意的话，这些都是真正的植物性东西。
And this is interesting because I think a lot of people experience depression, not just people that live in Scandinavia in the middle of winter, and we are very much divorced from our normal interactions with light.
这很有趣，因为我认为很多人都经历过抑郁症，而不仅仅是生活在隆冬的斯堪的纳维亚半岛的人，而且我们与光的正常互动非常脱节。
It also makes me realize that these intrinsically photosensitive cells that set the clock, et cetera, are involved in a lot of things.
这也让我意识到，这些设置时钟等的本质光敏细胞参与了很多事情。
I mean, they seem to regulate a dozen or more different basic functions.
我的意思是，它们似乎调节着十几种或更多不同的基本功能。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I want to ask you about a different aspect of the visual system now, which is the one that relates to our sense of balance.
我现在想问你关于视觉系统的另一个方面，这与我们的平衡感有关。
So I love boats, but I hate being on them.
所以我喜欢船，但我讨厌在船上。
I love the ocean from shore because I get incredibly seasick.
我喜欢从岸边看大海，因为我非常晕船。
It's awful.
太糟糕了。
I think I'm going to get seasick if I think about it too much.
我觉得想太多我会晕船的。
And once I went on a boat trip, I came back and I actually got motion sick, wasn't seasick because I went rafting.
有一次我乘船旅行，回来后我实际上晕车了，不是晕船，因为我去漂流了。
So there's a system that somehow gets messed up.
所以有一个系统不知何故变得混乱。
They always tell us if you're feeling sick, to look at the horizon, et cetera, et cetera.
他们总是告诉我们，如果你感觉不舒服，看看地平线，等等。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So what is the link between our visual system and our balance system, and why does it make us nauseous sometimes when the world is moving in a way that we're not accustomed to?
那么我们的视觉系统和平衡系统之间有什么联系，为什么当世界以我们不习惯的方式移动时，它有时会让我们感到恶心呢？
I realize this is a big question because it involves eye movement, et cetera.
我意识到这是一个大问题，因为它涉及眼球运动等。
But let's maybe just walk in at the simplest layers of vision, vestibular, so-called balance system, and then maybe we can piece the system together for people so that they can understand.
但也许我们可以从最简单的视觉层、前庭层、所谓的平衡系统开始，然后也许我们可以将这个系统拼凑起来，让人们能够理解。
And then also we should give them some tools for adjusting their knowledge there when their vestibular system is out of whack.
然后我们还应该给他们一些工具，以便在他们的前庭系统出现问题时调整他们的知识。
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
Cool.
酷。
So I mean, the first thing to think about is that the vestibular system is designed to allow you to see, or detect, sense, how you're moving in the world, through the world.
所以我的意思是，首先要考虑的是，前庭系统的设计目的是让你看到、或检测、感知你如何在这个世界上、通过这个世界移动。
It's a funny one because it's about your movement in relationship to the world, in a sense, and yet it's interoceptive in the sense that it is really, in the end, sensing the movement of your own body.
这很有趣，因为从某种意义上说，它是关于你与世界的关系的运动，但它是内感受的，因为它最终实际上是在感知你自己身体的运动。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So interoception, we should probably delineate for people, is when you're focusing on your internal state-
所以内感受，我们应该为人们描述，是当你专注于你的内部状态时——
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
As opposed something outside you.
与你之外的东西相反。
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But it's a gravity-sensing system?
但这是重力感应系统吗？
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
Well, it's partly a gravity-sensing system, in the sense that gravity is a force that's acting on you as if you were moving through the world in the opposite direction.
嗯，它在一定程度上是一个重力感应系统，从某种意义上说，重力是一种作用在你身上的力，就好像你在世界上以相反的方向移动一样。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
All right, now you got to explain that.
好吧，现在你得解释一下。
You got to explain that one to me.
你必须向我解释一下这一点。
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
Okay.
好的。
So basically the idea is that, if we leave gravity aside ...
所以基本上的想法是，如果我们把重力放在一边......
We're just sitting in a car, in the passenger seat.
我们只是坐在车里，坐在乘客座位上。
And the driver hits the accelerator and you start moving forward.
司机踩下油门，你开始向前行驶。
You sense that; if your eyes were closed, you'd sense it.
你感觉到了；如果你闭上眼睛，你就会感觉到。
If your ears were plugged and your eyes were closed, you'd still know it.
如果你堵住耳朵、闭上眼睛，你仍然会知道。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, many people take off on the plane like this.
是啊，很多人都是这样坐飞机起飞的。
They're dreading the flight, and they know when it's, the plane is taking off.
他们害怕飞行，他们知道飞机什么时候起飞。
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
Sure.
当然。
That's your vestibular system talking because anything that jostles you out of the current position you're in right now will be detected by the vestibular system pretty much.
这是你的前庭系统在说话，因为任何将你推离当前位置的东西都会被前庭系统检测到。
So this is a complicated system, but it's basically in your inner ear, very close to where you're hearing-
所以这是一个复杂的系统，但它基本上位于你的内耳中，非常接近你听到的地方-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Why'd they put it there?
他们为什么把它放在那里？
And I don't know who-
而且我不知道是谁-
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
I don't really know.
我真的不知道。
They're sort of derived-
它们有点衍生-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, I'm just kidding.
不，我只是开玩笑。
To steal our friend Russ Van Gelder's explanation, we weren't consulted in the design phase, and no one-
借用我们朋友 Russ Van Gelder 的解释，我们在设计阶段没有咨询过我们，也没有人——
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
That's a great line.
这是一条很棒的线。
That's a great line.
这是一条很棒的线。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But it's interesting it's in the ear.
但有趣的是它在耳朵里。
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
Yeah, it's deep in there and it's served by the same nerve, actually, that serves the hearing system.
是的，它就在那里深处，实际上，它由服务于听力系统的同一根神经提供服务。
One way to think about it is both the hearing system and the vestibular self-motion-sensing system are really detecting the signal in the same way.
一种思考方式是，听觉系统和前庭自我运动传感系统实际上都以相同的方式检测信号。
They're hairy cells and they're excited-
他们是毛细胞，他们很兴奋-
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
Literally?
从字面上看？
Hairy cells?
毛细胞？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sort of.
有点像。
They got little cilia sticking up off the surfaces.
他们的表面有一些小纤毛。
And depending on which way you bend those, the cells will either be inhibited or excited.
根据你弯曲它们的方式，细胞会被抑制或兴奋。
They're not even neurons, but then they talk to neurons with a neuron-like process.
它们甚至不是神经元，但它们通过类似神经元的过程与神经元对话。
And off you go, now you've got an auditory signal if you're sensing things bouncing around in your cochlea, which is-
现在，如果您感觉到耳蜗中有东西在弹跳，您就会收到一个听觉信号，那就是——
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
Sound waves.
声波。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sympathetically the bouncing of your eardrum, which is in sympathetically, the sound waves in the world.
同情地，你的耳膜的弹跳，同情地，是世界上的声波。
But in the case of the vestibular apparatus, evolution has built a system that detects the motion of, say, fluid, going by those hairs.
但就前庭器官而言，进化已经建立了一个系统，可以检测通过这些毛发的流体运动。
And if you put a sensor like that in a tube that's fluid-filled, now you've got a sensor that will be activated when you rotate that tube around the axis that passes through the middle of it.
如果您将这样的传感器放入充满液体的管子中，那么现在您就拥有了一个传感器，当您围绕穿过其中间的轴旋转该管子时，该传感器将被激活。
Those who were just won't be able to-
那些曾经的人将无法——
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
No, I think that made sense.
不，我认为这是有道理的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I was thinking of it as three hula hoops.
我以为它是三个呼啦圈。
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
Right, three hula hoops.
对了，三个呼啦圈。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
One standing up, one lying down on the ground.
一个站着，一个趴在地上。
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
Right, one the other one-
对了，一个另一个——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
One the other way.
另一种方式。
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
Three directions.
三个方向。
The people who fly will talk about roll, pitch and yaw, that kind of thing.
飞行的人会谈论滚转、俯仰和偏航之类的事情。
So three axes of encoding, just like in the cones of the retina.
所以编码的三个轴，就像视网膜的锥体一样。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yes, so the yes, the no, and then I always say it's, and then the puppy-head tilt.
是的，所以是，不是，然后我总是说是，然后小狗头倾斜。
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
Yeah, the puppy-head tilt.
是的，小狗头倾斜。
That's the other one.
那是另一件事。
So the point is that your brain is eventually going to be able to unpack what these sensors are telling you about how you just rotated your head, in very much the way that the three types of cones we were talking about before are reading the incoming photons in the wavelength domain differently.
所以关键是，你的大脑最终将能够解开这些传感器告诉你的关于你如何旋转头部的信息，就像我们之前讨论的三种视锥细胞以不同的方式读取波长域中的传入光子一样。
And if you could-
如果你可以——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Red, green, and blue.
红色、绿色和蓝色。
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
Yeah.
是的。
You can compare and contrast, you get red, green, and blue.
你可以比较和对比，你会得到红色、绿色和蓝色。
So same basic idea.
所以基本想法是一样的。
If you have three sensors and you array them properly, now you can tell if you're rotating your head left or right, up or down.
如果您有三个传感器并且正确排列它们，现在您可以判断您的头部是否向左或向右、向上或向下旋转。
That's the sensory signal coming back into your brain confirming that you've just made a movement that you will.
这是返回您大脑的感觉信号，确认您刚刚做出了您想要的动作。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But what about on the plane?
但在飞机上呢？
Because when I'm on the plane, I'm completely stationary.
因为当我在飞机上时，我是完全静止的。
The plane's moving, but my head hasn't moved, right?
飞机在动，但我的头却没有动，对吗？
So I'm just moving forward.
所以我只是继续前进。
Gravity is constant.
重力是恒定的。
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
How do I know I'm accelerating?
我怎么知道我正在加速？
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
So what's happening now is your brain is sensing the motion.
所以现在发生的是你的大脑正在感知运动。
And the brain is smart enough also to ask itself, did I will that movement, or did that come from the outside?
大脑也足够聪明，可以问自己，这个动作是我想要的，还是来自外部？
So now in terms of understanding what the vestibular signal means, it's got to be embedded in the context of what you tried to do, or what your other sensory systems are telling you about what's happening now.
因此，现在就理解前庭信号的含义而言，它必须嵌入到您尝试做的事情的背景中，或者您的其他感觉系统告诉您现在正在发生的事情的背景中。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I see.
我明白了。
So it's very interesting.
所以这很有趣。
But it's not conscious.
但它没有意识。
Or at least if it's conscious, it's definitely very fast.
或者至少如果它有意识的话，它的速度绝对是非常快的。
The moment that plane starts moving.
飞机开始移动的那一刻。
I know that I didn't get up out of my chair and run forward.
我知道我没有从椅子上站起来向前跑。
But I'm not really thinking about getting up out of my chair.
但我并没有真正考虑从椅子上站起来。
I just know.
我只知道。
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
I guess the way I think about it is that the nervous system is, quote, "aware" at many levels.
我想我的想法是，神经系统在很多层面上都有“意识”。
When it gets all the way up to the cortex, and we're thinking about it, you're talking about it.
当它一直到达大脑皮层，而我们正在思考它时，你就在谈论它。
That's cortical.
那是皮质。
But the lower levels of the brain that don't require you to actually actively think about it, they're just doing their thing, are also made aware.
但大脑的较低层并不需要你真正积极地思考它，它们只是在做自己的事情，也会被意识到。
Right?
正确的？
A lot of this is happening under the surface of what you're thinking.
很多事情都发生在你所想的表面之下。
These are reflexes.
这些都是反射。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
So we've got this gravity-sensing system for ...
所以我们有这个重力感应系统......
I'm nodding, for those that are listening, for a yes movement of the head, a no movement of the head, or the tilting of the head from side to side.
对于那些正在听的人，我点头表示是头部运动，头部不运动，或者头部从一侧到另一侧倾斜。
And then you said that knowledge about whether or not activation of that system comes from my own movements, or something acting upon me.
然后你说关于该系统是否激活的知识来自我自己的动作，或者作用于我的东西。
Like the plane moving has to be combined with other signals.
就像飞机的移动必须与其他信号结合起来一样。
And so how is the visual information, or information about the visual world combined with balance information?
那么视觉信息，或者说关于视觉世界的信息是如何与平衡信息结合起来的呢？
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
Right.
对。
So yeah, I mean, I guess maybe the best way to think about how these two systems work together is to think about what happens when you suddenly rotate your head to the left.
所以，是的，我的意思是，我想也许思考这两个系统如何协同工作的最佳方法是思考当你突然向左旋转头部时会发生什么。
When you suddenly rotate your head to the left, your eyes are actually rotating to the right automatically.
当你突然向左转动头部时，你的眼睛实际上会自动向右转动。
You do this in complete darkness.
您在完全黑暗的情况下进行此操作。
If you had an infrared camera and watched yourself in complete darkness, you can't see anything.
如果您有红外摄像机并在完全黑暗的情况下观察自己，您将看不到任何东西。
Rotating your head to the left, your eyes would rotate to the right.
当你的头向左转动时，你的眼睛就会向右转动。
That's your vestibular system saying, "I'm going to try to compensate for the head rotation, so my eyes are still looking in the same place." Why is that useful?
这是你的前庭系统在说：“我要尝试补偿头部旋转，所以我的眼睛仍然看向同一个地方。”为什么这有用？
Well, if it's always doing that, then the image of the world on your retina will be pretty stable most of the time.
好吧，如果它总是这样做，那么你视网膜上的世界图像在大多数时候都会相当稳定。
And that actually helps vision.
这实际上有助于视力。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Have they built this into cameras for image stabilization?
他们是否将其内置到相机中以实现图像稳定？
Because when I move, when I take a picture with my phone, it's blurry.
因为当我移动时，当我用手机拍照时，它是模糊的。
It's not clear.
目前还不清楚。
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
Well actually, you might want to get a better phone.
事实上，您可能想买一部更好的手机。
Because now what they have is software, in the better apps, that will do a kind of image stabilization post-hoc by doing a registration of the images that are bouncing around.
因为现在他们拥有的是软件，在更好的应用程序中，它将通过注册跳跃的图像来实现一种事后图像稳定。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I see.
我明白了。
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
They say the edge of the house was here, so let's get that aligned in each of your images.
他们说房子的边缘就在这里，所以让我们在每张图像中对齐它。
So you may not be aware, if you're using a good new phone, that if you walk around a landscape and hold your phone that there's all this image stabilization going on.
因此，如果您使用的是一部好的新手机，您可能不会意识到，如果您在风景中行走并握住手机，所有这些图像稳定功能都会发生。
But it's built into standard cinematic technology now, because if you tried to do a handheld camera, things would be bouncing around; things would be unwatchable.
但它现在已内置于标准电影技术中，因为如果你尝试使用手持式摄像机，事情就会发生变化；事情将变得无法观看。
You wouldn't be able to really understand what's going on in the scene.
你将无法真正理解场景中发生的事情。
So the brain works really hard to mostly stabilize the image of the world on your retina.
因此，大脑非常努力地工作以基本稳定视网膜上的世界图像。
And now of course you're moving through the world, so you can't stabilize everything.
当然，现在你正在世界各地移动，所以你无法稳定一切。
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
But the more you can stabilize most of the time, the better you can see.
但大多数时候你越稳定，你就能看得越清楚。
And that's why when we're scanning a scene, looking around at things, we're making very rapid eye movements for very short periods of time.
这就是为什么当我们扫描场景、环顾四周时，我们会在很短的时间内进行非常快速的眼球运动。
And then we just rest.
然后我们就休息。
But we're not the only ones that do that.
但我们并不是唯一这样做的人。
If you ever watch a hummingbird, it does exactly the same thing in a feeder, right?
如果你观察过蜂鸟，它在喂食器中会做同样的事情，对吧？
Because of its body-
因为它的身体——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Jolting around.
晃来晃去。
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
It's going to make a quick movement, and then it's going to be stable.
它会快速移动，然后就会稳定下来。
And when you watch a pigeon walking on the sidewalk, it does this funny head-bobbing thing.
当你看到一只鸽子在人行道上行走时，它会做出这种有趣的摇头动作。
But what it's really doing is racking its head back on its neck while its body goes forward, so that the image of the visual world stays static.
但它真正做的事情是，当身体向前移动时，它的头向后仰靠在脖子上，这样视觉世界的图像就保持静止。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is that why they're doing it?
这就是他们这样做的原因吗？
Right?
正确的？
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
Yes.
是的。
And you've seen the funny chicken videos on YouTube.
您也曾在 YouTube 上看过有趣的小鸡视频。
You take a chicken, move it up and down and it stays in one place.
你拿一只鸡，上下移动它，它就会停留在一个地方。
It's all the same thing.
都是一样的。
All of these animals are trying hard to keep the image of the world stable on their retina, as much of the time as they possibly can.
所有这些动物都尽可能多地努力使视网膜上的世界图像保持稳定。
And then when they've got to move, make it fast, make it quick, and then stabilize again.
然后当他们需要移动时，要快点，快点，然后再次稳定下来。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's why the pigeons have their head back?
这就是鸽子把头向后仰的原因？
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
It is, yeah.
是的，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wow.
哇。
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
Yeah.
是的。
I mean, if-
我的意思是，如果——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I just need to pause there for a second and digest that.
我只需要在那里暂停一下并消化一下。
Amazing.
惊人的。
In case people aren't ...
万一人们不...
Well, there's no reason why people would know what we're doing here.
好吧，人们没有理由知道我们在这里做什么。
But essentially what we're doing is we're building up from sensory, light onto the eye, make color, to what the brain does with that, the integration of that.
但从本质上讲，我们正在做的是从感官、光进入眼睛、产生颜色，到大脑对此的处理、整合。
Circadian clock, melatonin, et cetera.
昼夜节律时钟、褪黑激素等等。
And now what we're doing is we're talking about multisensory, or multimodal, combining one sense, vision, with another sense, balance.
现在我们正在做的是多感官或多模式，将一种感觉（视觉）与另一种感觉（平衡）结合起来。
And it turns out that pigeons know more about this than I do, because pigeons know to keep their head back as they walk forward.
事实证明，鸽子比我更了解这一点，因为鸽子知道向前走时要保持头向后仰。
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
All right, so that gets us to this issue of motion sickness.
好的，现在我们就来说说晕车的问题。
And you don't have to go out on a boat.
而且你不必坐船出去。
Anytime I go to New York, I sit in an Uber or in a cab in the back, and if I'm looking at my phone while the car is driving, I feel nauseous by the time I arrive at my destination.
每当我去纽约时，我都会坐在优步或出租车的后座上，如果我在汽车行驶时看手机，那么当我到达目的地时，我会感到恶心。
I always try and look out the front of the windshield because I'm told that helps.
我总是尝试从挡风玻璃前面往外看，因为有人告诉我这会有所帮助。
But it's a little tiny window, and I end up feeling slightly less sick if I do that.
但这只是一个很小的窗口，如果我这样做的话，我最终会感觉不那么恶心了。
So what's going on with the vision and the balance system that causes a kind of a nausea?
那么视觉和平衡系统到底出了什么问题导致了恶心呢？
And actually if I keep talking about this, I probably will get sick.
事实上，如果我一直谈论这个，我可能会生病。
I don't throw up easily, but for some reason motion sickness is a real thing for me.
我不轻易呕吐，但由于某种原因，晕车对我来说是一件真实的事情。
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
It's a problem for a lot of people.
这对很多人来说都是一个问题。
I mean, I think the fundamental problem, typically, when you get motion sick is what they call visual-vestibular conflict.
我的意思是，我认为，当你晕车时，最根本的问题通常是所谓的视觉前庭冲突。
That is, you have two sensory systems that are talking to your brain about how you're moving through the world.
也就是说，你有两个感觉系统正在与你的大脑谈论你如何在这个世界上移动。
And as long as they agree, you're fine.
只要他们同意，你就没事。
So if you're driving, your body senses that you're moving forward, your vestibular systems is picking up this acceleration of the car, and your visual system is seeing the consequences of forward motion in the sweeping of the scene past you.
因此，如果您正在开车，您的身体会感觉到您正在向前移动，您的前庭系统会接收到汽车的加速度，并且您的视觉系统会在扫过您身边的场景中看到向前运动的后果。
Everything is honky dory, right?
一切都很顺利，对吧？
No problem.
没问题。
But when you are headed forward, but you're looking at your cell phone, what is your retina seeing?
但是当你向前看时，你正在看手机，你的视网膜看到了什么？
Your retina seeing the stable image of the screen.
您的视网膜看到屏幕的稳定图像。
There's absolutely no motion in that-
绝对没有任何动静——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or some other motion, like a movie, or yeah.
或者其他一些动作，比如电影，或者是的。
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
If you're playing a game or you're watching a video, a football game.
如果您正在玩游戏或正在观看视频、足球比赛。
The motion is uncoupled with what's actually happening to your body.
该运动与您身体实际发生的情况无关。
Your brain doesn't like that.
你的大脑不喜欢那样。
Your brain likes everything to be aligned.
你的大脑喜欢一切都保持一致。
And if it's not, it's going to complain to you.
如果不是，它会向你抱怨。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
By making me feel nauseous.
让我感到恶心。
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
By making you feel nauseous, and maybe you'll change your behavior.
通过让你感到恶心，也许你会改变你的行为。
So you're getting-
所以你得到-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm getting punished
我受到惩罚
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
Yeah, for setting it up, so-
是的，为了设置它，所以-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
For looking at my phone.
因为看我的手机。
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
By the vestibular visuals-
通过前庭视觉——
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
You'll learn.
你会学到的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In time.
及时。
I love it.
我喜欢它。
I love the idea of reward signals, and we've done a lot of discussion about this on this podcast of things like dopamine reward and things.
我喜欢奖励信号的想法，我们在这个关于多巴胺奖励等内容的播客上对此进行了很多讨论。
But also punishment signals, and I love this example.
但也有惩罚信号，我喜欢这个例子。
Well, maybe marching a little bit further along this pathway, visual input is combined with balance input.
好吧，也许沿着这条路走得更远一点，视觉输入与平衡输入相结合。
Where does that occur?
这种情况发生在哪里？
And maybe, because I have some hint of where it occurs, you could tell us a little bit about this kind of mysterious little minibrain that they call the cerebellum.
也许，因为我知道它发生的地方，你可以告诉我们一些关于这种神秘的小脑，他们称之为小脑的信息。
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
Cerebellum.
小脑。
Yeah.
是的。
So the way I tried to describe the cerebellum to my students is that it serves sort of like the air traffic control system functions in air travel.
因此，我试图向学生描述小脑的方式是，它的功能有点像空中交通管制系统在航空旅行中的功能。
So that it's a system that's very complicated, and it's really dependent on great information.
所以这是一个非常复杂的系统，并且它确实依赖于大量的信息。
So it's taking in information about everything that's happening everywhere.
所以它正在吸收各地发生的一切信息。
Not only through your sensory systems, but is listening into all the little centers elsewhere in your brain that are computing what you're going to be doing next, and so forth.
不仅通过你的感觉系统，而且还倾听你大脑其他地方的所有小中心，这些中心正在计算你下一步要做什么，等等。
So it's just ravenous for that kind of information.
所以人们对这类信息非常渴望。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So it really is like a little minibrain.
所以它真的就像一个小迷你大脑。
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
It is.
是的。
It's got access to all those signals, and it really has an important role in coordinating and shaping movements.
它可以获取所有这些信号，并且在协调和塑造运动方面确实发挥着重要作用。
But if you suddenly eliminated the air traffic control system, planes could still take off and land, but you might have some unhappy accidents in the process.
但如果你突然取消了空中交通管制系统，飞机仍然可以起飞和降落，但在这个过程中你可能会发生一些不愉快的事故。
So the cerebellum's kind of like that.
小脑就是这样的。
It's not that you would be paralyzed if your cerebellum was gone, because you still have motor neurons, you still have ways to talk to your muscles.
如果你的小脑消失了，你并不是会瘫痪，因为你仍然有运动神经元，你仍然有办法与你的肌肉对话。
You still have reflex centers.
你仍然有反射中枢。
And it's not like you would have any sensory loss, because you still have your cortex getting all of those beautiful signals that you can think about.
而且你不会有任何感觉损失，因为你的大脑皮层仍然会接收到所有你能想到的美丽信号。
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
But you wouldn't be coordinating things so well anymore.
但你不会再那么协调事情了。
The timing between input and output might be off.
输入和输出之间的时序可能关闭。
Or if you were trying to practice a new athletic move, like an overhead serve in tennis, you'd be just terrible at learning.
或者，如果您尝试练习一项新的运动动作，例如网球中的过顶发球，那么您的学习能力就会很差。
All of the sequences of muscle movements and the feedback from your sensory apparatus that would let you really hit that ball exactly where you wanted to, after the nth rep right now, the thousandth rep or something, you get much better at it.
所有的肌肉运动序列和来自感觉器官的反馈，可以让你真正将球击到你想要的地方，在现在的第 n 次、第 1000 次重复或类似的事情之后，你会变得更好。
So the cerebellum's all involved in things like motor learning and refining the precisions of movements so that they get you where you want to go, if you reach for a glass of champagne that you don't knock it over or stop short.
因此，小脑都参与诸如运动学习和提高运动精度之类的事情，这样它们就能带你去你想去的地方，如果你伸手去拿一杯香槟，你不会把它打翻或停下来。
That's-
那是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
People who have selective damage to the cerebellum-
小脑选择性损伤的人
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I'm familiar with, well Korsakoff's is different, right?
我很熟悉，科萨科夫的不一样，对吧？
Isn't that a B vitamin deficiency in chronic alcoholics?
这不是长期酗酒者缺乏B族维生素吗？
And they tend to walk kind of bow-legged, and they can't coordinate their movements.
而且他们走路时往往呈罗圈腿，而且动作不协调。
That has some mamillary bodies, but also cerebellum?
那有一些乳头体，还有小脑？
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
I'm not sure about the cerebellar involvement there, but the typical thing would be a patient who has a cerebellar stroke, or a tumor, for example, might be not that steady on their feet.
我不确定小脑是否受累，但典型的情况是患有小脑中风或肿瘤的患者可能站不稳。
If the dynamics of the situation — you're standing on a street car with no pole to hold onto; they might not be as good at adjusting all of the little movements of the car.
如果情况的动态变化——你站在一辆有轨电车上，没有杆子可以抓住；他们可能不擅长调整汽车的所有小动作。
There's a kind of tremor that can occur as they're reaching for things.
当他们伸手去拿东西时，可能会发生一种颤抖。
Because they reach a little too far, and then they overcorrect and come back.
因为他们做得有点太远了，然后他们矫枉过正又回来了。
Things like that.
诸如此类的事情。
So it's very common neurological phenomenon.
所以这是非常常见的神经系统现象。
Actually, cerebellar ataxia is what the neurologists call it.
事实上，神经学家称之为小脑性共济失调。
And it can happen not just with cerebellar damage, but damage to the tracks that feed the information into the cerebellum.
这种情况不仅会发生在小脑损伤上，还会发生在将信息输入小脑的轨道上。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
It's just deprived its structure.
它只是被剥夺了它的结构。
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Or output from the cerebellum.
或者是小脑的输出。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And so the cerebellum is where a lot of visual and balance information is combined.
因此，小脑是许多视觉和平衡信息结合的地方。
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
And a very key place in the cerebellum, which is ...
小脑中有一个非常关键的地方，那就是……
It's really one of the oldest parts-
这确实是最古老的部分之一-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In terms of the flocculus.
In terms of the flocculus.
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
The flocculus, right.
絮状体，对。
It's a critical place in the cerebellum where visual and vestibular information comes together, recording just the kinds of movements we were talking about, this image-stabilizing network.
这是小脑中视觉和前庭信息汇集的关键位置，记录我们正在谈论的运动类型，这个图像稳定网络。
It's all happening there, and there's learning happening there as well.
一切都在那里发生，学习也在那里发生。
So that if your vestibular apparatus is a little bit damaged somehow, your visual system is actually talking to your cerebellum, saying there's a problem-
因此，如果您的前庭装置因某种原因受到一点损坏，您的视觉系统实际上会与您的小脑对话，告诉您出现了问题 -
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
Actually talking to your cerebellum saying there's a problem here, there's an error.
实际上是在跟你的小脑说话，说这里有问题，有错误。
And your cerebellum is learning to do better by increasing the output of the vestibular system to compensate for whatever that loss was.
你的小脑正在学习如何通过增加前庭系统的输出来弥补损失，从而做得更好。
So it's a little error-correction system that's sort of typical of a cerebellar function.
所以这是一个小小的纠错系统，有点典型的小脑功能。
And it can happen in many, many different domains.
它可能发生在很多很多不同的领域。
This is just one of the domains of sensory motor integration that takes place there.
这只是那里发生的感觉运动整合的领域之一。
PART 2 OF 4 ENDS Andrew Huberman:
第 2 部分（共 4 部分）结束 Andrew Huberman：
So I should stay off my phone in the Ubers.
所以我应该在 Uber 出行时远离手机。
If I'm on a boat, I should essentially look and, as much as possible, act as if I'm driving the machine.
如果我在船上，我应该看起来并尽可能表现得就像我在驾驶机器一样。
That'd be weird if I was in the passenger seat pretending I was driving the machine.
如果我坐在乘客座位上假装自己在驾驶机器，那就很奇怪了。
But I do always feel better if I'm sitting in the front seat passenger.
但如果我坐在前座乘客，我总是感觉更好。
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
So the more of the visual world that you can see as if you were actually the one doing the motion, I would think.
因此，我认为，您可以看到的视觉世界越多，就好像您实际上是在做动作的人一样。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Let's stay in the inner ear for a minute as we continue to march around the nervous system.
让我们在内耳停留一分钟，继续围绕神经系统进行探索。
When you take off in the plane, or when you land or sometimes the middle there, your ears get clogged, or at least my ears get clogged.
当你在飞机上起飞时，或者当你降落时，或者有时在飞机中间时，你的耳朵会被堵塞，或者至少我的耳朵会被堵塞。
That's because of pressure buildup in the various tubes of the inner ear, et cetera.
这是因为内耳的各个管子等处压力增大。
We won't get into this, but years ago our good friend Harvey Karten, is another world-class neuroanatomist, gave a lecture and talked about how plugging your nose and blowing out versus plugging your nose and sucking in should be done at different times depending on whether or not you're taking off or landing.
我们不会讨论这个，但几年前，我们的好朋友哈维·卡滕（Harvey Karten）是另一位世界级的神经解剖学家，他做了一次演讲，谈到了如何根据您是否起飞或着陆在不同时间进行堵住鼻子擤气和堵住鼻子吸气的动作。
And I always see people trying to unpop their ears and when you do scuba diving, you learn how to do this without necessarily; I can do it by just kind of moving my jaw now, because I've done a little bit of diving.
我总是看到人们试图打开他们的耳朵，当你进行水肺潜水时，你会学会如何做到这一点，但不一定；我现在只需移动下巴就可以做到这一点，因为我已经做了一点潜水。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But what's the story there?
但那里有什么故事呢？
We don't have to get into all the different, atmospheric pressure, et cetera, but if I'm taking off and my ears are plugged or I've recently ascended, plane took off, my ears are plugged, do I plug my nose and blow out or do I plug my nose and suck in?
我们不必考虑所有不同的情况，大气压等等，但如果我起飞时我的耳朵被堵住了，或者我最近升空了，飞机起飞时，我的耳朵被堵住了，我是堵住鼻子吹气还是堵住鼻子吸气？
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
So the basic idea is that if your ears feel bad, because you are going into an area of higher pressure — so if they pressurize the cabin more than the pressure that you have on the surface of the planet, your eardrums will be bending in and they don't like that.
所以基本的想法是，如果你的耳朵感觉不舒服，因为你正在进入一个压力更高的区域——所以如果他们对机舱的压力超过了你在地球表面的压力，你的耳膜就会弯曲，他们不喜欢这样。
If you push them more, they'll hurt even more.
如果你把它们推得更紧，它们就会受到更大的伤害。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's a good description that the pressure goes up, then they're going to bend in.
这是一个很好的描述，压力上升，然后它们就会弯曲。
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
Bend in.
弯进去。
And then the reverse would be true if you go into an area of low pressure.
如果你进入低压区域，情况就会相反。
So if you know, you started to drive up the mountain side, the pressure's getting lower and lower outside.
所以如果你知道的话，你开始开车上山，外面的气压越来越低。
Now the inside ...
现在里面...
the air behind your eardrum is ballooning out.
耳膜后面的空气正在膨胀。
So it's just a question of, are you trying to get more pressure or less pressure behind the eardrum?
所以这只是一个问题，你是想增加耳膜后面的压力还是减少耳膜后面的压力？
And there's a little tube that does that and comes down into back your throat there.
有一根小管子可以做到这一点，并进入你的喉咙后面。
And if you force pressure up that tube, you're going to be putting more air pressure into the compartment.
如果你向那个管子施加压力，你就会给隔间施加更多的气压。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
To counter it.
来反击它。
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
If it's not enough.
如果还不够的话。
And if you're sucking, you're going the other way.
如果你很糟糕，你就会走另一条路。
In reality, I think as long as you open the passageway, I think the pressure differential is going to solve your problem.
事实上，我认为只要你打开通道，我认为压差就能解决你的问题。
So I think you could actually blow in when you're not, quote, supposed to.
所以我认为你实际上可以在不应该吹气的时候吹气。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
So you could just hold your nose and blow air out or hold your nose and suck in; the effect either way is fine.
所以你可以捏住鼻子吹气，或者捏住鼻子吸气；无论哪种方式效果都很好。
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
I think so.
我想是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Excellent.
太棒了。
I just won a hundred dollars from Harvey Karten.
我刚刚从 Harvey Karten 那里赢了一百美元。
Thank you very much.
非常感谢。
This is a lot ...
这是很多...
Harvey and I used to teach neuroanatomy together, and I always say, "I don't think it matters," but thank you very much.
哈维和我曾经一起教授神经解剖学，我总是说，“我认为这不重要”，但非常感谢你。
I'll split that with you.
我会和你分担。
This is important stuff, but it's sure, you hear this, so it doesn't matter either way.
这是重要的事情，但可以肯定的是，你听到了这一点，所以无论如何都没关系。
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
I'm no expert in this area.
我不是这个领域的专家。
Don't quote me.
别引用我的话
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
He's not going to ...
他不会...
I'm going to quote you, but okay.
I'm going to quote you, but okay.
So we've talked about the inner ear and we've talked about the cerebellum.
我们已经讨论了内耳和小脑。
I want to talk about an area of the brain that is rarely discussed, which is the midbrain.
我想谈谈大脑中一个很少被讨论的区域，那就是中脑。
And for those that don't know, the midbrain is an area beneath the cortex.
对于那些不知道的人来说，中脑是皮质下方的区域。
I guess we never really defined cortex.
I guess we never really defined cortex.
It is kind of the outer layers or the outer layers of the, at least mammalian brain or human brain.
它是至少哺乳动物大脑或人类大脑的外层或外层。
But the midbrain is super interesting because it controls a lot of unconscious stuff, reflexes, et cetera.
但中脑非常有趣，因为它控制着很多无意识的东西、反射等等。
And then there's this phenomenon even called "blindsight." So could you please tell us about the midbrain, about what it does, and what in the world is blindsight?
还有一种现象甚至被称为“盲视”。那么您能告诉我们有关中脑的信息、它的作用以及盲视到底是什么吗？
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
Yeah.
是的。
So there's a lot of pieces there.
So there's a lot of pieces there.
I think the first thing to say is if you imagine the nervous system in your mind's eye, you see this big honking brain, and then there's this little, thin little wand that dangles down into your vertical column, the spinal cord.
我认为首先要说的是，如果你想象你脑海中的神经系统，你会看到这个大而鸣叫的大脑，然后有一根细细的小魔杖垂在你的垂直柱上，即脊髓。
And that's kind of your visual impression.
And that's kind of your visual impression.
What you have to imagine is starting in the spinal cord and working your way up into this big, magnificent brain.
你必须想象的是从脊髓开始，逐渐进入这个巨大而宏伟的大脑。
And what you would do as you enter the skull is get into a little place where the spinal cord kind of thickens out.
当你进入头骨时，你要做的就是进入一个脊髓变厚的小地方。
It still has that sort of long, skinny trunk-like feeling.
它仍然有那种又长又瘦的树干般的感觉。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sort of like a paddle or a spoon shaped?
Sort of like a paddle or a spoon shaped?
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
Right.
对。
It starts to spread out a little bit.
It starts to spread out a little bit.
And that's because your evolution is packed.
And that's because your evolution is packed.
More interesting goodies in there for processing information and generating movement.
那里有更多有趣的东西用于处理信息和产生运动。
So beyond that is this tween brain we were talking about, this linker brain.
除此之外，还有我们正在讨论的补间大脑，即链接器大脑。
Diencephalon really means the between brain.
Diencephalon really means the between brain.
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, I thought you said tween.
Oh, I thought you said tween.
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
Well, yes.
嗯，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, no. "Between," sorry, I thought you said "tween."
不，不。 "Between," sorry, I thought you said "tween."
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
Yes.
是的。
Between brain is what the name means.
Between brain is what the name means.
It's the linker from the spinal cord and the periphery up to these grand centers of the cortex.
它是从脊髓和外周到皮质大中心的连接器。
But this midbrain you're talking about is the last bit of this enlarged sort of spinal cordy thing in your skull, which is really, the brainstem is what we call it.
但你所说的中脑是你头骨中这种扩大的脊髓东西的最后一点，实际上，脑干就是我们所说的。
The last bit of that before you get to this relay up to the cortex is the midbrain.
在到达皮层的中继之前的最后一点是中脑。
And there's a really important visual center there.
那里有一个非常重要的视觉中心。
It's called the superior colliculus.
它被称为上丘。
There's a similar center in the brains of other vertebrate animals.
其他脊椎动物的大脑中也有类似的中心。
A frog, for example, or a lizard would have this, it's called the optic tectum there.
例如，青蛙或蜥蜴就会有这个，它被称为视顶盖。
But it's a center that in these nonmammalian vertebrates, is really the main visual center.
但在这些非哺乳动物脊椎动物中，它确实是主要的视觉中心。
They don't really have what we would call a visual cortex, although there's something sort of like that.
他们实际上并不具有我们所说的视觉皮层，尽管确实有类似的东西。
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
But this is where most of the action is in terms of interpreting visual input and organizing behavior around that.
但这是大部分行动的地方，即解释视觉输入并围绕其组织行为。
You can sort of think about this region of the brainstem as a reflex center that can reorient the animal's gaze or body, or maybe even attention, around the animal.
您可以将脑干的这个区域视为反射中心，可以重新调整动物周围的目光或身体，甚至注意力。
And that could be all for all kinds of reasons.
这可能是出于各种原因。
I mean, it might be a predator just showed up in one corner of the forest and you pick that up and you're trying to avoid it.
我的意思是，它可能是一只掠食者刚刚出现在森林的一个角落，你捡到它并试图避开它。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or just any movement?
或者只是任何运动？
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
Many movement.
许多运动。
It might be that suddenly something splats on the page when you're reading a novel, and your eye reflexly looks at it.
可能是当你读小说时，突然有什么东西落在书页上，你的眼睛反射性地看着它。
You don't have to think about that.
你不必考虑这个。
That's a reflex.
这是一种反射。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What if you throw me a ball but I'm not expecting it, and I just reach up and try and grab it, catch it or not.
如果你扔给我一个球，但我没有预料到，我只是伸手尝试抓住它，不管是否接住。
Is that handled by the midbrain?
这是由中脑处理的吗？
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
Well that's probably not the midbrain, although, I mean by itself because it's going to involve all these limb movements, this movement of your arm and body.
嗯，这可能不是中脑，不过，我的意思是它本身，因为它将涉及所有这些肢体运动，你的手臂和身体的运动。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What about ducking, if something's suddenly thrown at my head?
如果有什么东西突然扔到我头上，躲开怎么办？
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
Yeah, sure.
是的，当然。
Right.
正确的。
Things like that will certainly have a brainstem component, a midbrain component, something looms and you duck.
像这样的东西肯定会有脑干成分、中脑成分，有什么东西若隐若现，你就躲开。
It may not be the superior colliculus we're talking about now; it might be another part of the visual midbrain.
它可能不是我们现在所说的上丘；而是上丘。它可能是视觉中脑的另一部分。
But these are centers that emerged early in the evolution of brains like ours to handle complicated visual events that have significance for the animal in terms of space.
但这些中心是在像我们这样的大脑进化早期出现的，用于处理复杂的视觉事件，这些事件对动物的空间具有重要意义。
Where is it in space?
它在太空中的什么地方？
And in fact, this same center actually gets input from all kinds of other sensory systems that take information from the external world, from particular locations, and where you might want to either avoid or approach things according to their significance to you.
事实上，这个中心实际上从各种其他感觉系统获取输入，这些系统从外部世界、特定位置以及你可能想要根据事物对你的重要性来避免或接近事物的地方获取信息。
So you get input from the touch system, you get input from the auditory system.
所以你从触觉系统获得输入，从听觉系统获得输入。
I worked for a while in rattlesnakes.
我在响尾蛇工作了一段时间。
They get input from a part of their warm sensors on their face.
他们从脸上的一部分温暖传感器获取输入。
They're in these little pits on the face.
它们就在脸上的这些小坑里。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They used to work on baby rattlesnakes, right?
他们曾经研究响尾蛇宝宝，对吗？
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
They were adults, actually.
事实上，他们已经是成年人了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, I wasn't trying to diminish the danger.
哦，我并不是想减少危险。
I thought for some reason they were little ones.
出于某种原因我以为他们是小孩子。
Why in the world would you work on rattlesnakes?
你到底为什么要研究响尾蛇？
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
Well, because they have a version of an exteroceptive sensory system, that is they're looking out into the world using a completely different set of sensors.
嗯，因为他们有一种外感受感觉系统，也就是说他们正在使用一套完全不同的传感器来观察世界。
They're using the same sensors that would feel the warmth on your face if you stood in front of a bonfire.
他们使用的传感器与你站在篝火前时会感受到你脸上的温暖的传感器相同。
Except evolution has given them this very nice specialized system that lets them image where the heat's coming from.
除了进化给了他们这个非常好的专门系统，让他们能够想象热量来自哪里。
You can sort of do that anyway; if you walk around the fire, you can feel where the fire is from the heat hitting your face.
无论如何你都可以这样做；如果你绕着火走，你可以从脸上的热量感觉到火在哪里。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is that the primary way in which they detect prey?
这是它们发现猎物的主要方式吗？
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
It's one of the major ways.
这是主要方式之一。
And in fact they use vision as well.
事实上他们也使用视觉。
And they bring these two systems together in the same place, in this tectum region, this brainstem, midbrain region-
他们将这两个系统放在同一个地方，在这个顶盖区域，这个脑干，中脑区域——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What's all the tongue jutting about when the snakes ...
当蛇伸出舌头时，这是怎么回事？
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
That I don't know.
我不知道。
That may be olfactory.
这可能是嗅觉。
There may be-
可能有——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They're sniffing the air with their tongue.
他们用舌头嗅空气。
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
Yeah.
是的。
There may be-
可能有——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Earlier in our drive, you told me that flies actually taste things with their feet.
在我们开车的早些时候，你告诉我苍蝇实际上是用脚来品尝东西的。
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
They do.
他们确实这么做了。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's so weird.
那太奇怪了。
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
Yeah.
是的。
They have taste receptors in lots of funny places.
它们在很多有趣的地方都有味觉感受器。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I want to pause here just for one second before we get back into the midbrain.
在我们回到中脑之前，我想在这里暂停一秒钟。
I think what's so interesting, in all seriousness, about taste receptors on feet, heat sensors, tongues jutting out in snakes, and vision and all this integration is that it really speaks to the fact that all these sensory neurons are trying to gather information and stuff it into a system that can make meaningful decisions and actions.
我认为，严肃地说，脚上的味觉感受器、热传感器、蛇伸出的舌头、视觉以及所有这些整合的有趣之处在于，它真正说明了这样一个事实：所有这些感觉神经元都在试图收集信息并将其填充到一个可以做出有意义的决定和行动的系统中。
And that it really doesn't matter whether or not it's coming from eyes or ears or nose or bottoms of feet because in the end it's just electricity flowing in.
而且它是否来自眼睛、耳朵、鼻子或脚底并不重要，因为最终它只是电流流入。
And so it sounds like it's placed on each animal.
听起来好像它被放置在每只动物身上。
It always feels weird to call a fly an animal, but they are creatures, they are animals.
将苍蝇称为动物总是感觉很奇怪，但它们是生物，它们是动物。
It's placed in different locations on different animals depending on the particular needs of that animal
根据该动物的特殊需要，将其放置在不同动物的不同位置
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
But how much more powerful if the nervous systems can also cross-correlate across sensory systems.
但是，如果神经系统也可以跨感觉系统进行交叉关联，那么功能会更强大。
So if you've got a weak signal from one sensory system, you're not quite sure there's something there.
因此，如果你从一个感觉系统收到微弱的信号，你就不太确定那里有什么东西。
And a weak signal from another sensory system that's telling you the same locations is a little bit interesting.
来自另一个感觉系统的微弱信号告诉你相同的位置，这有点有趣。
There might be something there.
那里可能有什么东西。
If you've got those two together, you've got corroboration, your brain now says it's much more likely that that's going to be something worth paying attention to.
如果你把这两者放在一起，你就得到了佐证，你的大脑现在会说这更有可能是值得关注的事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So maybe I'm feeling some heat on one side of my face, and I also smell something baking in the oven.
所以也许我感觉脸的一侧有些热，而且我还闻到了烤箱里烤的东西的味道。
So now neither is particularly strong, but as you said, there's some corroboration, right?
所以现在两者都不是特别有力，但正如你所说，有一些佐证，对吗？
And that corroboration is occurring in the midbrain.
这种证实发生在中脑。
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
And then if you throw things into conflict, now the brain is confused.
然后，如果你让事情陷入冲突，那么大脑就会变得混乱。
And that may be where your motion sickness comes from.
这可能就是你晕车的根源。
So it's great to have ...
所以很高兴有...
As a brain, it's great to have as many sources of information as you can have.
作为大脑，拥有尽可能多的信息来源是件好事。
Just like if you're a spy or a journalist, you don't want as much information as you can get about what's out there.
就像如果您是间谍或记者一样，您不需要尽可能多地了解外面的情况。
But if things conflict, that's problematic, your sources are giving you different information about what's going on.
但如果事情发生冲突，那就有问题了，你的消息来源会向你提供有关正在发生的事情的不同信息。
Now you've got a problem on your hands, what do you publish?
现在您遇到了一个问题，您要发布什么？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The midbrain is so fascinating.
中脑真是太迷人了。
I don't want to eject us from the midbrain and go back to the vestibular system.
我不想把我们从中脑弹出并回到前庭系统。
But I do have a question that I forgot to ask about the vestibular system, which is why is it that for many people, including me, there's, despite my motion sickness in cabs, that there's a sense of pleasure in moving through space and getting tilted relative to the gravitational pull of the earth.
但我确实有一个关于前庭系统的问题，我忘记问了，这就是为什么对包括我在内的许多人来说，尽管我在出租车里晕车，但在太空中移动并相对于地球引力倾斜时却有一种愉悦感。
For me, growing up it was skateboarding, but people like to corner in cars, corner on bikes.
对我来说，从小到大就是滑板，但人们喜欢开汽车、骑自行车。
It may be for some people, it's done running or dance, but what is it about moving through space and getting tilted, a lot of surfers around here, getting tilted that can tap into some of the pleasure centers.
可能对某些人来说，跑步或跳舞已经完成了，但是在太空中移动并倾斜是什么？这里有很多冲浪者，倾斜可以进入一些娱乐中心。
Do we have any idea why that would feel?
我们知道为什么会有这样的感觉吗？
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
I have no clue.
我不知道。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is there dopaminergic input to this system?
该系统是否有多巴胺能输入？
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
Well, the dopaminergic system gets a lot of places.
嗯，多巴胺能系统占据了很多位置。
It's pretty much to some extent everywhere in the cortex, a lot more in the frontal lobe, of course.
在某种程度上，它几乎遍布大脑皮层的任何地方，当然，更多的是在额叶。
But that's just for starters.
但这仅适用于初学者。
I mean there's basically dopamine innervation most places in the central nervous system.
我的意思是，中枢神经系统的大部分地方基本上都有多巴胺神经支配。
So there's the potential for dopaminergic involvement.
因此，多巴胺能的参与是有可能的。
But I really have no clue about the tilting phenomenon.
但我对倾斜现象实在是一无所知。
I mean ...
我的意思是...
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
People pay money to go on roller coasters.
人们花钱去坐过山车。
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
Well, I think that may be as much about the thrill as anything else.
嗯，我认为这可能与其他因素一样重要。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And the falling reflex is very robust in all of us.
我们所有人的跌倒反射都非常强烈。
When the visual world's going up very fast, it usually means that we're falling.
当视觉世界快速上升时，通常意味着我们正在下降。
But some people like that, some people don't.
但有些人喜欢，有些人不喜欢。
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
And kids tolerate a lot more sort of vestibular craziness, spinning around until they drop-
孩子们可以忍受更多的前庭疯狂，旋转直到他们倒下——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Obviously.
显然。
I have friends, it always worries me a little bit that they throw their kids.
我有朋友，他们扔孩子总是让我有点担心。
I'm not recommending anyone do this when they're little kids.
我不建议任何人在小时候这样做。
Throwing the kids really far back and forth.
把孩子们扔来扔去很远。
Some kids seem to love it.
有些孩子似乎很喜欢它。
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
Yeah.
是的。
Our son loved being shaken up and down very, very vigorously.
我们的儿子非常非常喜欢被上下摇晃。
That's the only thing that would calm him down sometimes.
有时这是唯一能让他平静下来的事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Interesting.
有趣。
Yeah.
是的。
So I'm guessing, we can guess that maybe there's some activation of the reward systems from being move ...
所以我猜测，我们可以猜测，奖励系统可能因移动而被激活......
moving through space.
穿过空间。
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
Well, yeah.
嗯，是的。
I mean, if you think about how rewarding it is to be able to move through space and how unhappy people are who are used to that who suddenly aren't able to do that.
我的意思是，如果你想想能够在太空中移动是多么值得，以及那些习惯了这种方式的人突然无法做到这一点是多么不高兴。
There is a sense of agency.
有一种代理感。
If you can choose to move through the world and to tilt, that's not only you're moving through the world but you're doing it with a certain amount of finesse.
如果你可以选择在世界中移动并倾斜，那么你不仅在世界中移动，而且你在做这件事时具有一定的技巧。
Maybe that's what it is.
也许就是这样。
You can feel like you're the master of your own movement in a way that you wouldn't if you're going straight.
你会感觉自己是自己动作的主人，而如果你直线前进，则不会有这样的感觉。
I'm just blowing smoke here, right?
我只是在这里抽烟，对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Well we can speculate.
好吧，我们可以推测一下。
That's fine.
没关系。
I couldn't help but ask the question.
我忍不住问了这个问题。
So if we move ourselves, pun intended, back into the midbrain.
因此，如果我们将自己移回中脑，双关语是这样的。
The midbrain is combining all these different signals for reflexive action.
中脑将所有这些不同的信号结合起来进行反射动作。
At what point does this become deliberate action?
什么时候这会变成故意行为？
Because if I look at something I want and I want to pursue it, I'm going to go toward it.
因为如果我看到我想要的东西并且想要追求它，我就会朝着它前进。
And many times that's a deliberate decision.
很多时候这是一个深思熟虑的决定。
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
So this gets very slippery, I think.
所以我认为这会变得非常棘手。
Because what you have to try to imagine is all these different parts of the brain working on the problem of staying alive and surviving in the world — they're working on the problem simultaneously.
因为你必须尝试想象大脑的所有不同部分都在解决在世界上生存和生存的问题——它们同时在解决这个问题。
And there's not one right answer to how do that.
对于如何做到这一点，没有一个正确的答案。
But one way to think about it is that you have high levels of your nervous system that are very well-designed to override an otherwise automatic movement if it's inappropriate.
但一种思考方式是，你的神经系统水平很高，经过精心设计，可以在不适当的情况下超越自动运动。
So if you imagine, you've been invited to tea with the Queen, and she hands you a very fancy Wedgwood teacup, very thin-
所以如果你想象一下，你被邀请与女王一起喝茶，她递给你一个非常漂亮的韦奇伍德茶杯，非常薄——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wedgwood teacup?
韦奇伍德茶杯？
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
Yes, with very hot tea in it, and you're burning your hand, you probably will try to find a way to put that back down on the saucer rather than just dropping it on the floor, because you're with the queen; you're trying to be appropriate to that.
是的，里面有很热的茶，而你的手被烫伤了，你可能会想办法把它放回茶碟上，而不是直接把它扔到地板上，因为你和女王在一起；你正在努力适应这一点。
So you have ways of reigning in automatic behaviors if they're going to be maladaptive.
因此，如果自动行为出现适应不良，你有办法控制它们。
But you also want the reflex to work quickly.
但你也希望反应能够快速发挥作用。
If it's the only thing that's going to save you; the looming object coming at your head.
如果这是唯一能拯救你的事情；隐现的物体出现在你的头上。
You don't have time to think about that.
你没有时间考虑这个。
So this is the interplay in these hierarchically organized centers of the nervous system at the lowest level.
这就是神经系统最低层的这些分层组织中心之间的相互作用。
You've got the automatic sensors and centers and reflex arcs that will keep you safe even if you don't have time to think about it.
您拥有自动传感器、中心和反射弧，即使您没有时间考虑，也能保证您的安全。
And then you've got the higher center saying, "Well maybe we could do this as well," or, "Maybe we shouldn't do that at all."
然后你会得到更高的中心说，“好吧，也许我们也可以这样做，”或者，“也许我们根本不应该这样做。”
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
So you have all of these different levels operating simultaneously and you need bidirectional communication between high-level cognitive centers decision-making on the one hand, and these low-level, very helpful reflexive centers, but they're a little bit rigid, little hardwired.
因此，所有这些不同级别同时运行，一方面需要高层认知中心决策，另一方面需要这些低层、非常有帮助的反射中心之间的双向沟通，但它们有点僵化，有点硬连线。
So they need some nuance.
所以他们需要一些细微差别。
So both of these things are operating in tandem in real time all the time in our brains.
因此，这两件事一直在我们的大脑中实时协同运作。
And sometimes we listen more to one than the other.
有时我们听其中一个人的意见比听另一个人的意见多。
You've heard people in sports talking about messing up at the play because they overthought it.
你听过体育界的人谈论比赛中搞砸了，因为他们想得太多了。
Thinking too hard about it.
想太多了。
That's partly you've already trained your cerebellum how to hit a fastball right down the middle.
这部分是因为你已经训练了你的小脑如何从中间击出快球。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And if you start looking for something new or different, you're going to mess up your reflexive swing.
如果你开始寻找新的或不同的东西，你就会扰乱你的反射性挥杆。
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
If you're trying to think about the physics of the ball as it's coming at you, you've already missed, right?
如果你试图思考球向你飞来时的物理原理，那么你已经错过了，对吧？
Because you're not using this.
因为你没有用这个。
All those reps have built a kind of knowledge; it's what you want to rely on when you don't have enough time to contemplate.
所有这些代表都建立了一种知识；当你没有足够的时间思考时，这就是你想要依靠的东西。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This is important and a great segue for what I'd like to discuss next, which is the basal ganglia.
这很重要，也是我接下来要讨论的基底神经节的一个很好的延续。
This really interesting area of the brain that's involved in Go-type commands and behaviors, instructing us to do things, and NoGo, preventing us from doing things because so much of motor learning and skill execution and not saying the wrong thing or sitting still in class or, as you used with the tea with the queen example, feeling discomfort involves suppressing behavior, and sometimes it's activating behavior.
大脑中这个非常有趣的区域涉及 Go 型命令和行为，指导我们做事，而 NoGo 则阻止我们做事，因为大量的运动学习和技能执行，不要说错话或在课堂上保持安静，或者就像你在茶后的例子中所使用的那样，感到不舒服涉及抑制行为，有时它会激活行为。
Tremendous amount of online attention is devoted to trying to get people motivated.
大量的在线注意力都致力于激发人们的积极性。
This isn't the main focus of our podcast.
这不是我们播客的主要焦点。
We touch on some of the underlying neural circuits of motivation, dopamine and so forth.
我们触及动机、多巴胺等的一些潜在神经回路。
But so much of what people struggle with out there are elements around failure to pay attention or challenges in paying attention, which is essentially putting the blinders on, getting a soda-straw view of the world and maintaining that for a bout of work or something of that sort and trying to get into action.
但是，人们所遇到的很多困难都与无法集中注意力或注意力不集中有关，这本质上是蒙蔽双眼，以一种苏打水稻草的观点看待世界，并在一段工作或类似的事情中保持这种观点，并试图采取行动。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So of course this is carried out by many neural circuits, not just the basal ganglia, but what are the basal ganglia, and what are their primary roles in controlling Go-type behavior and NoGo-type behavior?
当然，这是由许多神经回路执行的，不仅仅是基底神经节，但是基底神经节是什么，它们在控制Go型行为和NoGo型行为中的主要作用是什么？
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
So I mean, the basal ganglia are sitting deep in what you would call the forebrain.
所以我的意思是，基底神经节位于所谓前脑的深处。
So the highest levels of the brain, they're sort of cousins to the cerebral cortex, which we talked about is sort of the highest level of your brain, the thing you're thinking with.
因此，大脑的最高层，它们是大脑皮层的近亲，我们谈到的大脑皮层是大脑的最高层，是你思考的东西。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Cerebral cortex being the refined cousins, and then you've got the brute.
大脑皮层是优雅的表兄弟，然后你就得到了野蛮。
Yeah.
是的。
Got it.
知道了。
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
I mean, that's probably totally unfair, but that's the point-
我的意思是，这可能完全不公平，但这就是重点-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I like the basal ganglia.
我喜欢基底神经节。
I can relate to the brutish parts of the brain, little bit of hypothalamus, little bit of basal ganglia, sure.
我可以理解大脑的野蛮部分，一点点下丘脑，一点点基底神经节，当然。
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
We need it all.
我们需要这一切。
We need it all.
我们需要这一切。
And this area of the brain has gotten a lot bigger as the cortex has gotten bigger, and it's deeply intertwined with cortical function.
随着皮质变大，大脑的这个区域也变得更大，并且它与皮质功能紧密地交织在一起。
The cortex can't really do what it needs to do without the help of the basal ganglia and vice versa.
如果没有基底神经节的帮助，皮质就无法真正完成它需要做的事情，反之亦然。
So they're really intertwined.
所以他们真的是交织在一起的。
And in a way you can think about this logically is saying, if you have the ability to withhold behavior or to execute it, how do you decide which to do?
在某种程度上，你可以逻辑地思考这个问题，如果你有能力抑制行为或执行它，你如何决定做什么？
Well, the cortex is going to have to do that thinking for you.
好吧，大脑皮层必须为你做这样的思考。
You have to be looking at all the contingencies of your situation and decide, is this a crazy move, or is this a really smart investment right now or what?
你必须考虑你的情况的所有意外情况并决定，这是一个疯狂的举动，还是现在这是一个真正明智的投资还是什么？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I don't want to go out for a run in the morning when I'm going to make myself go out for a run.
早上我想让自己出去跑步时我不想出去跑步。
Or I'm having a great time out on a run, and I know I need to get back, but I kind of want to go another mile.
或者我在跑步中度过了一段愉快的时光，我知道我需要回来，但我有点想再跑一英里。
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
I mean, another great example is that the marshmallow test for the little kids.
我的意思是，另一个很好的例子是针对小孩子的棉花糖测试。
They can get two marshmallows if they hold off just 30 seconds, initially.
如果他们最初只坚持 30 秒，就可以获得两个棉花糖。
They can have one right away.
他们可以立即拥有一个。
But if they can wait 30 seconds, they got two.
但如果他们能等 30 秒，他们就得到了两个。
So that's the NoGo, because their cortex is saying, "I would really like to have two more than having one." But they're not going to get the two unless they can not reach for the one.
这就是 NoGo，因为它们的皮质在说：“我真的希望多拥有两个，而不是拥有一个。”但除非他们够不到其中一个，否则他们就不会得到这两个。
So they've got to hold off the action, and that has to result from a cognitive process.
所以他们必须推迟行动，而这必须是认知过程的结果。
So the cortex is involved in a major way.
因此，皮质参与了主要的工作。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
As I recall in that experiment, the kids used a variety of tools to ...
我记得在那次实验中，孩子们使用了各种工具......
Some would distract themselves.
有些人会分散自己的注意力。
I particularly related to the kid that would just put himself right next to the marshmallows.
我特别喜欢那个把自己放在棉花糖旁边的孩子。
And some of the kids covered their eyes.
一些孩子捂住了眼睛。
Some of them would count or sing.
他们中的一些人会数数或唱歌。
Yeah.
是的。
So that's all very cortical, right?
所以这都是非常皮质的，对吧？
Coming up with a novel strategy.
提出一个新颖的策略。
Simple example that we're using here.
我们在这里使用的简单示例。
But of course this is at play.
但这当然是在起作用。
Anytime someone decides they want to go watch a motivational speech or something, just a Steve Jobs commencement speech, just to get motivated to engage in their day.
任何时候有人决定去看一场励志演讲或其他什么东西，只是史蒂夫·乔布斯的毕业典礼演讲，只是为了有动力去度过他们的一天。
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
Should I take this new job?
我应该接受这份新工作吗？
It's got great benefits, but it's in a lousy part of the country.
它有很大的好处，但它位于该国的一个糟糕的地区。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Why do you think that some people have a harder time running these Go/NoGo circuits and other people seem to have very low activation energy we would say.
您认为为什么有些人在运行这些 Go/NoGo 电路时遇到困难，而其他人似乎具有非常低的激活能（我们会说）。
They can just ...
他们只能...
They have a task, they just lean into the task.
他们有任务，他们只是专注于任务。
Whereas some people, getting into task completion or things of that sort is very challenging for them.
而有些人，完成任务或类似的事情对他们来说非常具有挑战性。
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
I mean, I think it's really just another ...
我的意思是，我认为这实际上只是另一个......
It's a special case of a very general phenomenon, which is brains are complicated, and the brains we have are the result of genetics and experience.
这是一个非常普遍现象的特例，即大脑很复杂，而我们的大脑是遗传和经验的结果。
And my genes are different from your genes, and my experiences are different from your experiences.
我的基因和你的基因不同，我的经历和你的经历不同。
So the things that are easy or hard for us won't necessarily be aligned.
因此，对我们来说容易或困难的事情不一定是一致的。
They might just happen to be just because they are.
他们可能只是碰巧因为他们就是这样。
But the point is that you're dealt a certain set of cards, you have a certain set of genes, you are handed a brain.
但关键是，你会得到一组特定的牌，你有一组特定的基因，你会被赋予一个大脑。
You don't choose your brain, it's handed to you.
你无法选择你的大脑，它是交给你的。
But then there's all this stuff you can do with it.
但你可以用它做所有这些事情。
You can learn to have new skills or to act differently or to show more restraint, which is kind of relevant to what we're talking about here.
你可以学习掌握新技能，或者以不同的方式行事，或者表现出更多的克制，这与我们在这里讨论的内容相关。
Or maybe show less restraint.
或者也许表现得更少克制。
If your problem is you're so buttoned-down you never have any fun in life, you should loosen up a little bit.
如果你的问题是你太保守了，生活中没有任何乐趣，你应该放松一点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thank you.
谢谢你。
I appreciate the insult.
我很欣赏这种侮辱。
Yeah.
是的。
David's always encouraging me to have a little more fun in life.
大卫总是鼓励我在生活中多一点乐趣。
So basal ganglia are ...
所以基底神经节是...
they're kind of the disciplinarian, or they're sort of the instructor-conductor of sorts, right?
他们是纪律严明的人，或者是某种意义上的指导者，对吧？
Go/NoGo.
去/不去。
You be quiet; you start now.
你安静点；你现在就开始吧。
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
I wish I knew more about the basal ganglia than I do.
我希望我比现在更了解基底神经节。
My sense is that this system is key for implementing the plans that get cooked up in the cortex, but they also influence the plans that the cortex is dishing out because this is a major source of information to the cortex.
我的感觉是，这个系统是执行皮层制定的计划的关键，但它们也会影响皮层发出的计划，因为这是皮层的主要信息来源。
So it becomes almost impossible to figure out where the computation begins and where it ends and who's doing what.
因此几乎不可能弄清楚计算从哪里开始、在哪里结束以及谁在做什么。
Because these things are all interacting in a complex network, and it's all of it.
因为这些东西都在一个复杂的网络中相互作用，而且是全部。
It's the whole network.
这是整个网络。
One is the leader and the other is the follower.
一个是领导者，另一个是追随者。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Of course, all the structures that we're discussing are working in parallel.
当然，我们正在讨论的所有结构都是并行工作的。
And there's a lot of changing crosstalk.
并且有很多变化的串扰。
I have this somewhat sick habit, David, of every day I try and do 21 NoGos.
大卫，我有一个有点病态的习惯，每天我都会尝试做 21 件事。
So if I want to reach for my phone, I try and not do it just to see if I can prevent myself from engaging in that behavior — if it was reflexive.
因此，如果我想伸手去拿手机，我会尝试这样做，而不只是为了看看我是否可以阻止自己做出这种行为——如果它是本能的。
If it's something I want to do, deliberate choice, then I certainly allow myself to do it.
如果这是我想做的事情，经过深思熟虑的选择，那么我当然会让自己去做。
I don't tend to have too much trouble with motivation, with Go-type functions, mostly because I'm so busy that I wish I had more time for more Gos, so to speak.
我在动机和 Go 类型的功能上不会遇到太多麻烦，可以这么说，主要是因为我太忙了，我希望我有更多的时间来处理更多的 Go。
But do you think these circuits have genuine plasticity in them?
但你认为这些电路具有真正的可塑性吗？
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
I mean, everybody knows how they've learned over time to wait for the two marshmallows.
我的意思是，每个人都知道随着时间的推移，他们是如何学会等待两块棉花糖的。
You don't have to have instant gratification all the time.
你不必总是拥有即时的满足感。
You're willing to do a job, sometimes, that isn't your favorite job because it comes with the territory, and you want the salary that comes at the end of the week or the end of the month.
有时，你愿意做一份工作，但这不是你最喜欢的工作，因为它带有地域性，而且你想要在周末或月末拿到薪水。
So we can defer gratification.
所以我们可以推迟满足感。
We can choose not to say the thing that we know is going to inflame our partner and create a meltdown for the next week.
我们可以选择不说那些我们知道会激怒我们的伴侣并在下周造成崩溃的事情。
We learn this control.
我们学习这种控制。
But I think these are skills like any other; you can get better at them if you practice.
但我认为这些技能和其他技能一样；如果你多练习，你就能做得更好。
So I think you're choosing to do that spontaneously as kind of a ...
所以我认为你选择自发地这样做，就像......
It's a mental practice, it's a discipline.
这是一种心理练习，也是一种纪律。
It's a way of building a skill that you want to have.
这是培养您想要拥有的技能的一种方式。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
I find it to be something that when I engage in a NoGo-type situation, then the next time and the next time that I find myself about to move reflexively, there's a little gap in consciousness, that I can make a decision whether or not this is really the best use of my time.
我发现当我陷入NoGo类型的情况时，然后下一次和下一次我发现自己要条件反射地移动时，意识中存在一点差距，我可以决定这是否真的是我时间的最佳利用。
Because I sometimes wonder whether or not all this business around attention.
因为我有时想知道这一切是否都围绕着注意力。
Certainly there's the case of ADHD and clinical diagnosed ADHD, but all these, the issue around focus and attention is really that people just have not really learned how to short-circuit a reflex, and so much of what makes us different than rattlesnakes or ...
当然有注意力缺陷多动症和临床诊断的注意力缺陷多动症的情况，但所有这些，围绕注意力和注意力的问题实际上是人们还没有真正学会如何短路反射，而这些使我们与响尾蛇或……不同。
well actually they could be deliberate, but from the other animals is our ability to suppress reflex.
事实上，它们可能是故意的，但与其他动物相比，我们有抑制反射的能力。
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
Yeah.
是的。
Well that's the cortex.
嗯，这就是皮质。
I mean, or let's say the forebrain.
我的意思是，或者说前脑。
Cortex and basal ganglia are working together, sitting on top of this lizard brain that's giving you all these great adaptive reflexes that help you survive.
皮层和基底神经节协同工作，位于蜥蜴大脑的顶部，为您提供所有这些伟大的适应性反射，帮助您生存。
You just hope you don't get the surprising case where the thing that your reflex is telling you is actually exactly the wrong thing, and you make a mistake.
你只是希望你不会遇到令人惊讶的情况，即你的反射告诉你的事情实际上完全是错误的，而你犯了错误。
Right.
正确的。
So that's what the cortex is for.
这就是皮质的作用。
It's adding nuance and context and experience, past association, and in human beings, obviously, learning from others through communication.
它增加了细微差别、背景和经验、过去的关联，显然，在人类中，通过交流向他人学习。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, you went right to it, and it was where I was going to go.
好吧，你直接去了，这就是我要去的地方。
So let's talk about the cortex.
那么我们来谈谈皮质。
We've worked our way up, the so-called neuraxis.
我们一直在努力向上，即所谓的神经轴。
The aficionados will know.
爱好者们就会知道。
So we're in the cortex.
所以我们在皮质中。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The aficionados will know.
爱好者们就会知道。
So we're in the cortex.
所以我们在皮质中。
This is the seat of our higher consciousness, self-image planning and action.
这是我们更高意识、自我形象规划和行动的所在地。
But as you mentioned, the cortex isn't just about that.
但正如你所提到的，皮质不仅仅如此。
It's got other regions that are involved in other things.
它还有涉及其他事情的其他区域。
So maybe we should, staying with vision, let's talk a little bit about visual cortex.
所以也许我们应该继续讨论视觉，让我们来谈谈视觉皮层。
You told me a story, an amazing story about visual cortex, and it was somewhat of a sad story, unfortunately, about someone who had a stroke to visual cortex.
你给我讲了一个故事，一个关于视觉皮层的奇妙故事，不幸的是，这是一个关于视觉皮层中风的人的悲伤故事。
Maybe if you would share that story because I think it illustrates many important principles about what the cortex does.
也许您愿意分享这个故事，因为我认为它说明了有关皮层功能的许多重要原则。
PART 3 OF 4 ENDS David Berson:
第 3 部分（共 4 部分）结束 David Berson：
Right.
对。
So the visual cortex is, you could say, the projection screen, the first place where this information streaming from the retina through this thalamus connecting linker gets played out for the highest level of your brain to see.
因此，视觉皮层可以说是投影屏幕，是从视网膜通过丘脑连接器传输的信息被播放给大脑最高层看到的第一个地方。
It's a representation.
这是一个代表。
It's a map of things going on in the visual world that's in your brain.
它是你大脑中视觉世界中正在发生的事情的地图。
And when we describe a scene to a friend, we're using this chunk of our brain to be able to put words, which are coming from a different part of our cortex, to the objects and movements and colors that we see in the world.
当我们向朋友描述一个场景时，我们正在使用大脑的这一部分来将来自大脑皮层不同部分的文字表达为我们在世界上看到的物体、运动和颜色。
So that's a key part of your visual experience; when you can describe the things you're seeing, you're looking at your visual cortex.
所以这是你视觉体验的关键部分；当你能够描述你所看到的事物时，你正在观察你的视觉皮层。
And this is-
这是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Could I just ask a quick question?
我可以问一个简单的问题吗？
So right now, because I'm looking at your face as we're talking, there are neurons in my brain more or less in the configuration of your face that are active as you move about.
所以现在，因为我们说话时我正在看着你的脸，所以我的大脑中的神经元或多或少与你的面部配置相同，当你走动时，它们就会活跃起来。
And what if I were to close my eyes and just imagine — I do this all the time by the way, David — close my eyes, and I imagine David Berson's face.
如果我闭上眼睛想象一下——顺便说一句，我一直这样做，大卫——闭上眼睛，我想象大卫·伯森的脸。
I don't tend to do that as often.
我不经常这样做。
Maybe I should.
也许我应该。
But you get the point.
但你明白了。
I'm now using visualization of what you look like by way of memory.
我现在正在通过记忆来形象化你的样子。
If we were to image the neurons in my brain, would the activity of neurons resemble the activity of neurons that's present when I open my eyes and look at your actual face?
如果我们要对我大脑中的神经元进行成像，神经元的活动是否会类似于我睁开眼睛看着你真实的脸时出现的神经元活动？
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
This is a deep question.
这是一个很深奥的问题。
We don't really have a full account on that.
我们对此并没有真正的完整解释。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Seems like an easy experiment to do.
似乎是一个很容易做的实验。
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
Yes, except you're talking about looking in detail at the activity of neurons in a human brain.
是的，除非你正在谈论详细观察人脑中神经元的活动。
And that's not as easy to do as it would be in some kind of animal model.
这并不像在某种动物模型中那么容易做到。
But the bottom line is that you have a spatial representation of the visual world laid as a map of the visual world, laid down on another surface of your cortex.
但最重要的是，你有一个视觉世界的空间表征，作为视觉世界的地图，放在你皮层的另一个表面上。
The thing that's surprising is that it's not one map.
令人惊讶的是，这不是一张地图。
It's actually dozens of maps.
实际上有几十张地图。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What do each of those maps do?
这些地图分别有什么作用？
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
Well, we don't really have a full accounting there either, but it looks a little bit like the diversification of the output neurons of the retina, the ganglion cells we were talking about before.
好吧，我们实际上也没有完整的核算，但它看起来有点像视网膜输出神经元的多样化，即我们之前讨论的神经节细胞。
There are different types of ganglion cells that are encoding different kinds of information about the visual world.
有不同类型的神经节细胞编码有关视觉世界的不同类型的信息。
We talk about the ones that were encoding the brightness, but other ones are encoding motion or color, these kinds of things.
我们讨论的是编码亮度的，但其他的是编码运动或颜色的，诸如此类的东西。
The same kinds of specializations in different representations of the visual world in the cortex seem to be true.
大脑皮层视觉世界的不同表征具有相同类型的专业化，这似乎是正确的。
It's a complex story.
这是一个复杂的故事。
We don't have the whole picture yet.
我们还没有全面了解。
But it does look as if some parts of the brain are much more important for things like reaching for things in the space around you, and other parts of the cortex are really important for making associations between particular visual things you're looking at now and their significance.
但看起来大脑的某些部分对于诸如伸手去拿周围空间中的东西之类的事情要重要得多，而皮层的其他部分对于在你现在看到的特定视觉事物及其意义之间建立联系确实很重要。
What is that object?
那个物体是什么？
What can it do for me?
它能为我做什么？
How can I use it?
我该如何使用它？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What about the really specialized areas of cortex?
皮层真正专业的区域又如何呢？
Like the neurons that respond to particular faces, or neurons that, I don't know, can help me understand where I am relative to some other specific object?
就像对特定面孔做出反应的神经元，或者我不知道的神经元可以帮助我理解我相对于其他特定物体的位置？
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
Right.
对。
So these are properties of neurons that are extracted from, detected by, recording the activity of single neurons in some experimental system.
因此，这些神经元的属性是从某些实验系统中记录单个神经元的活动中提取、检测的。
What's going on when you actually perceive your grandmother's face is a much more complicated question.
当你真正看到祖母的脸时发生了什么是一个更复杂的问题。
And it clearly involves hundreds and thousands and probably millions of neurons acting in a cooperative way.
它显然涉及成百上千甚至可能数百万个神经元以合作的方式发挥作用。
So you can pick out any one little element in this very complicated system and see that it's responding differentially to certain kinds of visual patterns.
因此，您可以在这个非常复杂的系统中挑选出任何一个小元素，并看到它对某些类型的视觉模式的不同响应。
And you think you're seeing a glimpse of some part of the process by which you recognize your grandmother's face.
你认为你看到了你认出你祖母的脸的过程的某些部分。
But that's a long way from a complete description, and it certainly isn't going to be at the level of a magic, single neuron that has the special stuff to recognize your grandmother.
但这距离完整的描述还有很长的路要走，而且它肯定不会达到具有识别祖母的特殊能力的神奇单个神经元的水平。
It's going to be in some pattern of activity across many, many cells, resonating in some kind of special way, that will represent the internal memory of your mother.
它将以某种活动模式跨越许多许多细胞，以某种特殊的方式产生共鸣，这将代表你母亲的内部记忆。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Which is really incredible.
这真是令人难以置信。
Every time we do this deep dive, which we do from time to time, you and I — we march into the nervous system and explore how different aspects of our life experience is handled there and how it's organized.
每次我们进行这种深入研究时，你和我都会时不时地进行这种深入研究，我们会进入神经系统，探索我们生活经历的不同方面是如何在那里处理和组织的。
After so many decades of doing this, it still boggles my mind that the collection of neurons one through seven, active in a particular sequence, gives the memory of a particular face, and run backwards seven to one it could be a rattlesnake, viper, heat-sensing organs, as we were talking about earlier.
经过几十年的研究，我仍然感到困惑的是，以特定序列活跃的一到七个神经元的集合，给出了一张特定面孔的记忆，并以七比一倒推，它可能是响尾蛇、毒蛇、热感应器官，正如我们之前讨论的那样。
So is it true that there's a lot of multipurposing of the circuitry?
那么电路真的有很多用途吗？
We can't say one area of the brain does A and another area of the brain does B.
我们不能说大脑的某个区域执行 A，而大脑的另一个区域执行 B。
Areas can multitask, have multiple jobs.
区域可以执行多项任务，承担多项工作。
They can moonlight.
他们可以兼职。
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
Right, but I think in my career, the hard problem has been to square that with the fact that things are specialized, that there are specific genes expressed in specific neurons that make synaptic connections with only certain other neurons.
是的，但我认为在我的职业生涯中，困难的问题是与事物是专门化的事实相一致，即在特定神经元中表达特定基因，仅与某些其他神经元建立突触连接。
And that particular synaptic arrangement actually results in the processing of information that's useful to the animal to survive.
这种特殊的突触排列实际上会导致对动物生存有用的信息的处理。
So it's not as if it's either a big undifferentiated network of cells and looking at any one is never going to tell you anything.
因此，它并不是一个巨大的、未分化的细胞网络，观察任何一个细胞都不会告诉你任何信息。
That's too extreme, on the one hand.
一方面，这太极端了。
Nor is it the case that everything is hardwired and every neuron has one function and this all happens in one place in the brain.
也不是一切都是硬连线的，每个神经元都有一种功能，而这一切都发生在大脑的一个地方。
It's way more complicated and interactive and interconnected than that.
它比这更复杂、更具交互性和互连性。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So we're not hardwired or softwired.
所以我们不是硬连线或软连线。
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
It's both.
两者都是。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We're ...
我们是...
I don't know what the analogy should be.
我不知道应该用什么类比。
What substance would work best, David?
大卫，什么物质效果最好？
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
No idea there.
不知道那里。
But the idea is that it's always network activity.
但我们的想法是，它始终是网络活动。
There's always many, many neurons involved, and yet there's tremendous specificity in the neurons that might or might not be participating in any distributed function like that.
总是有很多很多神经元参与其中，但神经元有巨大的特异性，它们可能参与也可能不参与任何类似的分布式功能。
So you have to get your mind around the fact that it's both very specific and very nonspecific at the same time.
所以你必须明白这样一个事实：它既非常具体又非常不具体。
It's a little tricky to do, but I think that's kind of where the truth lies.
做起来有点棘手，但我认为这就是事实所在。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And so this example that you mentioned to me once before about a woman who had a stroke in visual cortex, I think speaks to some of this.
因此，您之前向我提到过的一个关于一位视觉皮层中风的女性的例子，我认为说明了这一点。
Could you share with us that story?
你能和我们分享一下这个故事吗？
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
Sure.
当然。
So the point is that you all, those of us who see, have representations of the visual world in our visual cortex.
所以关键是，你们所有人，我们这些看得见的人，在我们的视觉皮层中都有视觉世界的表征。
What happens to somebody when they become blind because of problems in the eye, the retina perhaps, you have a big chunk of the cortex, this really valuable real estate for neural processing, that has come to expect input from the visual system, and there isn't any anymore.
当某人因为眼睛问题而失明时会发生什么，也许是视网膜，你有一大块皮层，这是神经处理的真正宝贵的空间，它已经开始期待来自视觉系统的输入，但现在已经没有了。
So you might think about that as fallow land.
所以你可能会认为那是休耕地。
It's just used by the nervous system and that would be a pity.
它只是被神经系统使用，这很遗憾。
But it turns out that it in is in fact used.
但事实证明它确实被使用了。
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
And the case that you're talking about is of a woman who was blind from very early in her life and who had risen through the ranks to a very high-level executive secretarial position in a major corporation.
你所谈论的案例是一位女士，她从小就失明，后来在一家大公司晋升到非常高级的执行秘书职位。
And she was extremely good at braille reading, and she had a braille typewriter, and that's how everything was done.
她非常擅长阅读盲文，而且她有一台盲文打字机，一切都是这样完成的。
And apparently she had a stroke and was discovered at work, collapsed, and they brought her to the hospital.
显然她中风了，在工作中被发现，昏倒了，他们把她带到了医院。
And apparently the neurologist who saw her when she finally came to said, "I've got good news and bad news.
显然，当她终于苏醒过来时，见到她的神经科医生说：“我有一个好消息和一个坏消息。
Bad news is you've had a stroke.
坏消息是你中风了。
The good news is that it was in an area of your brain you're not even using.
好消息是它位于你大脑中你甚至没有使用的区域。
It's your visual cortex.
这是你的视觉皮层。
And I know you're blind from birth, so there shouldn't be any issue here."
而且我知道你生来就是瞎子，所以这里应该不会有任何问题。”
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
The problem was she lost her ability to read braille.
问题是她失去了阅读盲文的能力。
So what appears to have been the case, and this has been confirmed in other ways by imaging experiments in humans, is that in people who are blind from very early in birth, the visual cortex gets repurposed as a center for processing tactile information.
事实似乎是这样的，而且这一点已通过人类成像实验以其他方式得到证实：对于那些从出生起就失明的人来说，视觉皮层被重新用作处理触觉信息的中心。
And especially if you train to be a good braille reader, you're actually reallocating, somehow, that real estate to your fingertips, a part of the cortex that should be listening to the eyes.
尤其是如果你训练成为一名优秀的盲文阅读器，你实际上是在以某种方式将那部分空间重新分配到你的指尖，即大脑皮层中应该听眼睛的部分。
So that's an extreme level of plasticity, but what it shows is the visual cortex is a general-purpose processing machine.
所以这是一种极端的可塑性，但它表明视觉皮层是一个通用的处理机器。
It's good at spatial information, and the skin of your fingers is just another spatial sense.
它擅长空间信息，而手指的皮肤只是另一种空间感。
And deprived of any other input, the brain seems smart enough, if you want to put it that way, to rewire itself to use that real estate for something useful.
如果没有任何其他输入，大脑似乎足够聪明，如果你想这么说的话，可以重新连接自己，将这些空间用于有用的事情。
In this case, reading braille.
在这种情况下，阅读盲文。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Incredible.
难以置信。
Somewhat tragic, but incredible.
有点悲惨，但却令人难以置信。
At least in that case, tragic.
至少在这种情况下，是悲剧性的。
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
Very informative.
信息非常丰富。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Very informative.
信息非常丰富。
And of course it can go the other way too, where people can gain function in particular modalities like improved hearing or tactile function in the absence of vision.
当然，它也可以走向相反的方向，即人们可以获得特定方式的功能，例如在没有视力的情况下改善听力或触觉功能。
Tell us about connectomes.
告诉我们有关连接体的信息。
We hear about genomes, proteomes, microbiomes.
我们听说过基因组、蛋白质组、微生物组。
Omes, omes, omes these days.
这些天奥梅，奥梅，奥梅。
What's a connectome and why is it valuable?
什么是连接组以及它为何有价值？
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
Yeah, so "connectome" actually now has two meanings.
是的，所以“连接组”实际上现在有两个含义。
So I only refer to the one that is my passion right now, and that is really trying to understand the structure of nervous tissue at a scale that's very, very fine, but-
所以我只指我现在最感兴趣的一个，那就是真正试图以非常非常好的规模来理解神经组织的结构，但是-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Smaller than a millimeter.
小于一毫米。
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
Way smaller than a millimeter, a nanometer or less, as that's a thousand times smaller, or it's actually a million times smaller.
远小于一毫米、一纳米或更小，因为它小了一千倍，或者实际上小了一百万倍。
So really tiny on the scale of individual synapses between individual neurons or even smaller, like the individual synaptic vesicles containing little packets of neurotransmitter going to get it released to one neuron to communicate to the next.
单个神经元之间的单个突触的规模非常小，甚至更小，就像单个突触囊泡含有小包神经递质，将其释放到一个神经元以与下一个神经元进行通信。
So very, very fine.
非常非常好。
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
But the notion here is that you're doing this section after section at very fine scale.
但这里的概念是，你要以非常精细的规模逐节地进行这一节。
So in theory, what you have is a complete description of a chunk of nervous tissue that is so complete that if you took enough time to identify where the boundaries of all the cells are, you could come up with a complete description of the synaptic wiring of that chunk of nervous tissue, because you have a complete description of where all the cells are and where all the synapses between where all the cells are.
因此，从理论上讲，你所拥有的是对一块神经组织的完整描述，它是如此完整，如果你花足够的时间来确定所有细胞的边界在哪里，你就可以对这块神经组织的突触接线进行完整的描述，因为你对所有细胞的位置以及所有细胞之间的所有突触的位置有了完整的描述。
So now you essentially have a wiring diagram of this complicated piece of tissue.
现在您基本上已经有了这块复杂组织的接线图。
So the "omics" part is the exhaustiveness of it.
所以“组学”部分是它的详尽部分。
Rather than looking at a couple of synapses that are interesting to you from two different cell types, you're looking at all the synapses of all the cell types, which of course is this massive avalanche of data.
您不是查看两种不同细胞类型中您感兴趣的几个突触，而是查看所有细胞类型的所有突触，这当然是大量的数据。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So in genetics, you have genetics and then you have genomics, which is the idea of getting the whole genome.
所以在遗传学中，有遗传学，然后有基因组学，这是获取整个基因组的想法。
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
All of it.
所有这一切。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And we don't really have an analogous word for genetics, but it would be connectivity and connectomics.
我们确实没有一个与遗传学类似的词，但它是连通性和连接组学。
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
Connectomics.
连接组学。
Sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Connectivity and connectomics.
连接性和连接组学。
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
So it's wanting it all, and of course it's crazy ambitious, but that's where it gets fun.
所以它想要一切，当然它野心勃勃，但这就是它的乐趣所在。
Really, it's a use of electron microscopy, a very high-resolution microscopic imaging system on a new scale, with way more payoff in terms of understanding the connectivity of the nervous system.
实际上，这是电子显微镜的使用，这是一种新规模的高分辨率显微成像系统，在了解神经系统的连接性方面具有更多的回报。
And it's just emerging, but I really think it's going to revolutionize the field, because we're going to be able to query these circuits.
它刚刚出现，但我真的认为它将彻底改变这个领域，因为我们将能够查询这些电路。
How did they actually do it?
他们实际上是如何做到的？
Look at the hardware in a way that's never been possible before.
以前所未有的方式看待硬件。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The way that I describe this to people is if you were to take a chunk of cooked but cold spaghetti and slice it up very thin, you're trying to connect up each image of each slice of the edge of the spaghetti as figure out which ropes of spaghetti belong to which.
我向人们描述这一点的方式是，如果你要拿一块煮熟但冷的意大利面，并将其切成很薄的薄片，你会尝试将意大利面边缘每片的每个图像连接起来，找出意大利面的绳子属于哪根绳子。
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
And have a complete description of where this piece of spaghetti touches that piece of spaghetti, and is there's something special there, obviously.
并完整描述这块意大利面条与那块意大利面条接触的位置，以及显然那里有什么特别的地方。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The meat sauces and all the other cell types and the pesto and all, where it all is around the spaghetti, because those are the other cell, the blood vessels and the glial cells.
肉酱和所有其他细胞类型以及香蒜酱等等，所有这些都在意大利面条周围，因为这些是其他细胞，血管和神经胶质细胞。
And so what's it good for?
那么它有什么好处呢？
Maps are great.
地图很棒。
I always think of connectomics and genomics and proteomics, et cetera, as necessary but not sufficient.
我一直认为连接组学、基因组学和蛋白质组学等是必要的，但还不够。
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
Right, so in many cases, what you do is you go out and probe the function, and you understand how the brain does the function by finding neurons that seem to be firing in association with this function that you're observing.
是的，所以在很多情况下，你所做的就是出去探索该功能，然后通过找到似乎与你正在观察的该功能相关的神经元来了解大脑如何发挥该功能。
And little by little you work your way in, and now you want to know what the connectivity is, maybe the anatomy could help you.
你一点一点地进入，现在你想知道连接是什么，也许解剖可以帮助你。
But this connectomics approach, or at least the serial electro microscopy reconstruction of neurons approach, really is allowing us to frame questions starting from the anatomy and saying, "I see a synaptic circuit here.
但这种连接组学方法，或者至少是神经元的串行电镜重建方法，确实使我们能够从解剖学开始提出问题，并说：“我在这里看到了突触回路。
My prediction would be that these cell types would interact in a particular way.
我的预测是这些细胞类型将以特定的方式相互作用。
Is that right?" And then you can go and probe the physiology, and you might be right or you might be wrong.
是吗？”然后你可以去探索生理学，你可能是对的，也可能是错的。
But more often than not, it looks like the structure is pointing us in the right direction.
但通常情况下，这种结构似乎为我们指明了正确的方向。
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
So in my case, I'm using this to try to understand a circuit that is involved in this image stabilization network we're talking about, keeping things stable on the retina.
因此，就我而言，我用它来尝试理解我们正在讨论的图像稳定网络中涉及的电路，以保持视网膜上的稳定。
And this thing will only respond at certain speeds of motion, these cells in the circuit.
而且这个东西只会以一定的运动速度做出反应，这些细胞在电路中。
Slow motion.
慢动作。
They won't respond to fast motion.
他们不会对快速运动做出反应。
How does that come about?
这是怎么发生的？
Well, I was able to probe the circuitry.
好吧，我能够探测电路了。
I knew what my cells looked like, I could see which other cells were talking to it.
我知道我的细胞是什么样子，我可以看到哪些其他细胞正在与之交谈。
I could categorize all the cells that might be the players here that are involved in this mechanism of tuning thing for slow speeds.
我可以对所有可能参与这种低速调整机制的细胞进行分类。
And then we said, "It looks like it's that cell type," and we went and looked and the data bore that up.
然后我们说，“看起来就是那种细胞类型”，我们去看了一下，数据证实了这一点。
But the anatomy drove the search for the particular cell type because we could see it connected in the right place to the right cells.
但解剖学推动了对特定细胞类型的搜索，因为我们可以看到它在正确的位置连接到正确的细胞。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I see.
我明白了。
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
So that creates the hypothesis that lets you go query the physiology, but it can go the other way as well.
因此，这就产生了一个假设，让你可以去探究生理学，但它也可以走相反的路。
So it's always the synergy between these functional and structural approaches that gives you the most lift.
因此，这些功能和结构方法之间的协同作用始终能够为您带来最大的提升。
But in many cases, the anatomy has been a little bit the weak sister in this, the structure trying to work out the diagram, because we haven't had the methods.
但在很多情况下，解剖学在这方面有点弱，结构试图绘制图表，因为我们没有方法。
Now the methods exist and this whole field is expanding very quickly because people want these circuit diagrams for the particular part of the nervous system that they're working on.
现在这些方法已经存在，整个领域正在迅速扩展，因为人们想要他们正在研究的神经系统特定部分的电路图。
If you don't know the cell types and the connections, how do you really understand how the machine works?
如果您不知道细胞类型和连接，您如何真正了解机器的工作原理？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What I love about is we don't know what we don't know.
我喜欢的是我们不知道我们不知道的事情。
And scientists, we don't ask questions.
科学家们，我们不问问题。
We pose hypotheses.
我们提出假设。
Hypotheses being, of course, some prediction that you wager your time on, basically.
当然，假设基本上是你赌上时间的一些预测。
And it either turns out to be true or not true.
结果要么是真的，要么不是真的。
But if you don't know that a particular cell type is there, you could never, in any configuration of life or a career or exploration of a nervous system, wager a hypothesis, because you didn't know it was there.
但如果你不知道某种特定的细胞类型的存在，你就永远无法在任何生活配置、职业生涯或神经系统探索中做出假设，因为你不知道它的存在。
So this allows you to say, "Ah, there's a little interesting connection between this cell that I know is interesting and another cell that's a little mysterious but interesting.
所以这让你可以说，“啊，我知道这个有趣的细胞和另一个有点神秘但有趣的细胞之间有一些有趣的联系。
I'm going to hypothesize that it's doing blank, blank and blank and go test that." And in the absence of these connectomes, you would never know that that cell was lurking there in the shadows.
我将假设它正在做空白、空白、空白，然后进行测试。”如果没有这些连接体，你永远不会知道那个细胞潜伏在阴影中。
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
Right, and if you're just trying to understand how information flows through this biological machine, you want to know where things are.
是的，如果你只是想了解信息如何流过这台生物机器，你想知道东西在哪里。
Neurotransmitters are dumped out of the terminals of one cell, and they diffuse across the space between the two cells, which is a liquidy space.
神经递质从一个细胞的末端排出，并扩散到两个细胞之间的空间，这是一个液体空间。
And they hit some receptors on the postsynaptic cell, and they have some impact.
它们击中了突触后细胞上的一些受体，并且产生了一些影响。
Sometimes that's not through a regular synapse.
有时这不是通过常规突触。
Sometimes it's through a neuromodulator, like you often talk about on your podcast, that are-
有时是通过神经调节器，就像你经常在播客上谈论的那样，那就是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Dopamine.
多巴胺。
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
Oozing dopamine.
渗出多巴胺。
Exactly, oozing into the space between the cells.
确切地说，渗入细胞之间的空间。
And it may be acting at some distance far from where it was released.
而且它的作用可能距离它的释放地点有一定距离。
But if you don't know where the release is happening and where other things are that might respond to that release, you're groping around in the dark.
但是，如果您不知道发布发生在哪里，以及可能响应该发布的其他事物在哪里，那么您就是在黑暗中摸索。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, I love that you are doing this.
嗯，我喜欢你这样做。
And I have to share with the listeners that the first time I ever met David, and every time I've ever met with him in person, at least at his laboratory at Brown, he was in his office, door closed, drawing neurons and their connections.
我必须与听众分享，我第一次见到大卫时，以及每次我亲自见到他时，至少是在他布朗大学的实验室里，他都在办公室里，门关着，画神经元及其连接。
And this is somewhat unusual for somebody who's an endowed full professor, chairman of the department, et cetera, for many years, to be doing the hands-on work.
对于一个多年来担任正教授、系主任等职务、从事实践工作的人来说，这有点不寻常。
Typically, that's the stuff that's done by technicians or graduate students or postdocs.
通常，这是由技术人员、研究生或博士后完成的工作。
But I think it's fair to say that you really love looking at nervous systems and drawing the accurate renditions of how those nervous systems are organized and thinking about how they work.
但我认为可以公平地说，你真的很喜欢观察神经系统并绘制这些神经系统如何组织的准确再现并思考它们如何工作。
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
Yeah, it's pure joy for me.
是的，这对我来说是纯粹的快乐。
I'm a very visual person.
我是一个非常注重视觉的人。
My wife is an artist.
我的妻子是一位艺术家。
We look a lot of art together.
我们一起看了很多艺术作品。
Just the forms of things are gorgeous in their own right.
事物的形式本身就是华丽的。
But to know that the form is, in a sense, the function, that the architecture of the connectivity is how the computation happens in the brain, at some level, even though we don't fully understand that in most contexts, gives me great joy, because I'm working on something that's both visually beautiful but also deeply beautiful in a higher sort of knowledge context.
但在某种意义上，知道形式就是功能，连接的架构就是计算在大脑中发生的方式，在某种程度上，尽管我们在大多数情况下并不完全理解这一点，这给了我很大的快乐，因为我正在研究一些既在视觉上美丽，又在更高层次的知识背景下深刻美丽的东西。
What is it all about?
这是怎么回事？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I love it.
我喜欢它。
Well, as a final question, I get asked very often about how people should learn about neuroscience or how they should go about pursuing maybe an education in neuroscience if they're at that stage of their life or that's appropriate for their current trajectory.
好吧，作为最后一个问题，我经常被问到人们应该如何学习神经科学，或者如果他们处于人生的那个阶段或者适合他们当前的轨迹，他们应该如何继续接受神经科学教育。
Do you have any advice to young people, old people, anything in between, about how to learn about the nervous system more, maybe in a more formal way?
对于如何以更正式的方式更多地了解神经系统，您对年轻人、老年人以及介于两者之间的任何人有什么建议吗？
Obviously, we have our podcast.
显然，我们有我们的播客。
There are other sources of neuroscience information out there.
还有其他神经科学信息来源。
But for the young person who thinks they want to understand the brain, they want to learn about the brain, what should we tell them?
但是对于那些认为自己想要了解大脑、想要了解大脑的年轻人来说，我们应该告诉他们什么呢？
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
Well, that's a great question, and there's so many sources out there.
嗯，这是一个很好的问题，而且有很多来源。
It's almost a question of how do you deal with this avalanche of information out there?
这几乎是一个问题：你如何处理这些大量的信息？
I think your podcast is a great way for people to learn more about the nervous system in an accessible way.
我认为你的播客是人们以一种易于理解的方式了解更多关于神经系统的好方法。
But there's so much stuff out there and it's not just that.
但那里有很多东西，而且还不止这些。
The resources are becoming more and more available for average folks to participate in neuroscience research on some level.
普通人在某种程度上参与神经科学研究的资源变得越来越多。
There's this famous Eyewire project of Sebastian Seung-
Sebastian Seung 有一个著名的 Eyewire 项目——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh yeah, maybe tell us about Eyewire.
哦，是的，也许可以告诉我们 Eyewire 的事。
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
Yeah.
是的。
So that's connectomics, and that's a situation where a very clever scientist realized that the physical work of doing all this reconstruction of neurons from these electron micrographs, there's a lot of time involved.
这就是连接组学，在这种情况下，一位非常聪明的科学家意识到，从这些电子显微照片中重建神经元的所有物理工作需要花费大量时间。
Many, many person hours have to go into that to come up with the map that you want of where the cells are.
必须花费很多很多的时间来绘制出你想要的单元格所在的地图。
And he was very clever about setting up a context in which he could crowdsource this, and people who are interested in getting a little experience looking at nervous tissue, in participating in a research project, could learn how to do this and do a little bit and-
他非常聪明地建立了一个可以众包这项工作的环境，那些有兴趣获得一些观察神经组织的经验、参与研究项目的人可以学习如何做到这一点，并做一点——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
From their living room.
从他们的客厅。
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
From their living room, their laptop.
从他们的客厅，他们的笔记本电脑。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So people, we'll put a link to Eyewire.
所以各位，我们将添加一个到 Eyewire 的链接。
It also is a great bridge between what we were just talking about, connectomics and actually participating in research, and you don't need a graduate mentor or anything like that.
它也是我们刚才谈论的连接组学和实际参与研究之间的一座伟大桥梁，而且你不需要研究生导师或类似的东西。
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
Right, so more of this is coming.
是的，更多这样的事情即将到来。
And I'm actually interested in building more of this so that people who are interested, want to participate at some level, don't necessarily have the time or resources to get involved in laboratory research, can get exposed to it and participate and actually contribute.
我实际上有兴趣建立更多这样的东西，以便那些有兴趣、想要在某种程度上参与、不一定有时间或资源参与实验室研究的人，可以接触到它并参与并做出实际贡献。
So I think that's one thing.
所以我认为这是一回事。
Just asking questions of the people around you who know a little bit more and have them point you in the right direction.
只需向周围了解更多的人询问问题，让他们为您指明正确的方向。
Here's a book you might like to read.
这是一本您可能喜欢读的书。
There's lots of great popular books out there that are accessible that will give you more sense of the full range of what's out there in the neurosciences and how ...
有很多可供阅读的优秀流行书籍，它们可以让您更全面地了解神经科学领域的内容以及如何......
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We can put some links to a few of those that we like on basic neuroscience.
我们可以添加一些我们喜欢的基础神经科学领域的链接。
My good friend, Dick Masland, the late Richard ...
我的好朋友迪克·马斯兰德，已故的理查德……
people called him Dick, Dick Masland, had a good book.
人们称他为迪克，迪克·马斯兰，有一本好书。
I forget the title at the moment.
我现在忘记标题了。
It's sitting behind me somewhere over there on the shelf, but about vision and how nervous systems work.
它就放在我身后书架上的某个地方，是关于视觉和神经系统如何工作的。
A pretty accessible book for the general public.
一本对于普通大众来说非常容易理解的书。
Yeah.
是的。
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
Right.
对。
So that, and there's so many sources out there.
所以，那里有很多来源。
Wikipedia is a great way.
维基百科是一个很好的方法。
If you had a particular question about visual function, I would say by all means head to Wikipedia, and get the first look and follow the references from there, or go to your library.
如果您对视觉功能有疑问，我建议您务必前往维基百科，首先查看并遵循那里的参考资料，或者前往您的图书馆。
There's so many ways to get into it.
有很多方法可以进入其中。
It's such an exciting field now.
现在这是一个令人兴奋的领域。
Any particular realm that's special to you, your experience, your strengths, your passions, there's a field of neuroscience devoted to that.
任何对你来说特别的领域、你的经历、你的优势、你的热情，都有一个神经科学领域专门研究它。
If you know somebody who's got a neurological problem or a psychiatric problem, there's a branch of neuroscience that is devoted to trying to understand that and to solve these kinds of problems down the line.
如果您认识某人患有神经系统问题或精神问题，那么神经科学的一个分支致力于尝试理解并解决此类问题。
So feel the buzz.
所以感受一下嗡嗡声。
It's an exciting time to get involved.
这是参与其中的激动人心的时刻。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Great.
太棒了。
Those are great resources that people can access from anywhere.
这些都是人们可以从任何地方访问的优质资源。
Zero cost; you need an Internet connection.
零成本；您需要互联网连接。
But aside from that, we'll put the links to some.
但除此之外，我们还会添加一些链接。
And I'm remembering, Dick's book is called "We Know It When We See It."
我记得，迪克的书叫《当我们看到它时我们就知道它》。
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
Right.
对。
One of my heroes.,
我的英雄之一.,
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, wonderful colleague who, unfortunately, we lost a few years ago.
是的，一位出色的同事，不幸的是，我们几年前就失去了他。
But listen, David, this has been wonderful.
但是听着，大卫，这真是太棒了。
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
It's been a blast.
真是太棒了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We really appreciate you taking the time to do this.
我们非常感谢您花时间来做这件事。
As people probably realize by now, you're an incredible wealth of knowledge about the entire nervous system.
人们现在可能已经意识到，您拥有关于整个神经系统的令人难以置信的丰富知识。
Today we just hit this top contour of a number of different areas to give a flavor of the different ways that the nervous system works and is organized and how that's put together, how these areas are talking to one another.
今天，我们刚刚触及了许多不同区域的顶部轮廓，以了解神经系统工作和组织的不同方式，以及它们如何组合在一起，以及这些区域如何相互交谈。
What I love about you is that you're such an incredible educator, and I've taught so many students over the years.
我喜欢你的地方在于你是一位令人难以置信的教育家，多年来我教过很多学生。
But also for me personally, as friends, but also anytime that I want to touch into the beauty of the nervous system — I rarely lose touch with it.
但对我个人来说，作为朋友，而且在任何我想接触神经系统之美的时候——我很少会失去与它的联系。
But anytime I want to touch into it and start thinking about new problems and ways that the nervous system is doing things that I hadn't thought about, I call you.
但每当我想接触它并开始思考新问题以及神经系统做我没有想到的事情的方式时，我都会给你打电话。
So please forgive me for the calls, past, present, and future, unless you change your number.
因此，请原谅我过去、现在和将来的电话，除非您更改号码。
And even if you do, I'll be calling.
即使你这样做，我也会打电话。
David Berson:
大卫·伯森：
It's been such a blast, Andy.
这真是太棒了，安迪。
This has been a great session, and it's always fun talking to you.
这是一次很棒的会议，与您交谈总是很有趣。
It always gets my brain racing, so thank you.
它总是让我头脑发热，所以谢谢你。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thank you.
谢谢你。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thank you for joining me today for my discussion with Dr. David Berson.
感谢您今天加入我与大卫·博森博士的讨论。
By now, you should have a much clearer understanding of how the brain is organized and how it works to do all the incredible things that it does.
到现在为止，您应该对大脑的组织方式以及它如何工作以完成所有令人难以置信的事情有更清晰的了解。
If you're enjoying and/or learning from this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel.
如果您喜欢此播客和/或从中学习，请订阅我们的 YouTube 频道。
That's a terrific zero-cost way to support us.
这是支持我们的绝佳零成本方式。
In addition, please subscribe to our podcast on Apple and Spotify.
此外，请订阅我们在 Apple 和 Spotify 上的播客。
And on Apple, you have the opportunity to leave us up to a five-star review.
在苹果上，您有机会给我们五星级的评价。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
As well, if you'd like to make suggestions for future podcast episode topics or future podcast episode guests, please put those in the comment section on our YouTube channel.
此外，如果您想对未来的播客剧集主题或未来的播客剧集嘉宾提出建议，请将其放入我们 YouTube 频道的评论部分。
Please also check out our sponsors mentioned at the beginning of each podcast.
另请查看每个播客开头提到的我们的赞助商。
That's the best way to support us.
这是支持我们的最好方式。
If you're not already following Huberman Lab on Instagram and Twitter, feel free to do so.
如果您还没有在 Instagram 和 Twitter 上关注 Huberman Lab，请随时关注。
Both places, I regularly post short video posts or text posts that give tools related to health and neuroscience, and so forth.
在这两个地方，我都会定期发布短视频帖子或文本帖子，提供与健康和神经科学等相关的工具。
And most of the time, that information is nonoverlapping with the information on the podcast.
大多数时候，这些信息与播客上的信息不重叠。
Again, it's just Huberman Lab on Instagram and Twitter.
再说一次，Instagram 和 Twitter 上只是 Huberman Lab。
And last but not least, thank you for your interest in science.
最后但并非最不重要的一点是，感谢您对科学的兴趣。
PART 4 OF 4 ENDS
第 4 部分（共 4 部分）结束