Dr. David Anderson: The Biology of Aggression, Mating & Arousal

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.

欢迎来到休伯曼实验室播客，我们在这里讨论科学和基于科学的日常生活工具。

I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.

我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。

Today, my guest is Dr. David Anderson.

今天，我的嘉宾是大卫·安德森博士。

Dr. Anderson is a professor of biology at the California Institute of Technology, often commonly referred to as Caltech University.

安德森博士是加州理工学院（通常称为加州理工大学）的生物学教授。

Dr. Anderson's research focuses on emotions and states of mind and body, and indeed, he emphasizes how emotions like happiness, sadness, anger, and so on, are actually subcategories of what are generally governed by states.

安德森博士的研究重点是情绪以及身心状态，事实上，他强调快乐、悲伤、愤怒等情绪实际上是通常受状态控制的子类别。

That is, things that are occurring in the nervous system in our brain and in the connections between brain and body that dictate whether or not we feel good about how we are feeling and that drive our behaviors.

也就是说，我们大脑的神经系统以及大脑和身体之间的连接中发生的事情决定了我们对自己的感觉是否感觉良好并驱动我们的行为。

That is, bias us to be in action or inaction and strongly influence the way we interpret our experience and our surroundings.

也就是说，使我们偏向于采取行动或不采取行动，并强烈影响我们解释我们的经历和周围环境的方式。

Today, Dr. Anderson teaches us, for instance, why people become aggressive and why that aggression can sometimes take the form of rage.

例如，今天，安德森博士告诉我们为什么人们会变得具有攻击性，以及为什么这种攻击性有时会表现为愤怒的形式。

We also talk about sexual behavior and the boundaries and overlap between aggression and sexual behavior.

我们还讨论性行为以及攻击性和性行为之间的界限和重叠。

And that discussion about aggression and sexual behavior also starts to focus on particular aspects of neural circuits and states of mind and body that govern things like, for instance, male-male aggression versus male-female aggression versus female-female aggression.

关于攻击性和性行为的讨论也开始关注神经回路的特定方面以及支配诸如男性间攻击性、男性间攻击性、女性间攻击性等事物的精神和身体状态。

So today you will learn a lot about the biological mechanisms that govern why we feel the way we feel.

所以今天你将学到很多关于控制我们感受的生物机制。

Indeed, Dr. Anderson is an author of a terrific new popular book entitled "The Nature of the Beast: How Emotions Guide Us." I've read this book several times now.

事实上，安德森博士是一本很棒的新流行书的作者，书名为《野兽的本质：情绪如何引导我们》。我已经读过这本书好几遍了。

I can tell you it contains so many gems that are firmly grounded in the scientific research.

我可以告诉你，它包含了许多以科学研究为基础的宝石。

In fact, a lot of what's in the book contrasts with many of the common myths about emotions and biology.

事实上，书中的很多内容与许多关于情感和生物学的常见神话形成了鲜明对比。

So whether or not you're a therapist or you're a biologist or you're simply just somebody interested in why we feel the way we feel and why we act the way we act, I cannot recommend the book highly enough.

因此，无论你是治疗师还是生物学家，或者你只是对为什么我们有这样的感觉以及我们为什么这样做感兴趣，我都无法高度推荐这本书。

Again, the title is "The Nature of the Beast: How Emotions Guide Us." Today's discussion also ventures into topics such as mental health and mental illness, and some of the exciting discoveries that have been made by Dr. Anderson's laboratory and other laboratories identifying specific peptides, that is small proteins, that can govern whether or not people feel anxious or less anxious, aggressive or less aggressive.

同样，标题是“野兽的本质：情绪如何引导我们”。今天的讨论还涉及心理健康和精神疾病等话题，以及安德森博士的实验室和其他实验室发现的一些令人兴奋的发现，这些发现确定了特定的肽，即小蛋白质，可以控制人们是否感到焦虑或不那么焦虑，攻击性或攻击性降低。

This is an important area of research that has direct implications for much of what we read about in the news, both unfortunate and fortunate events, and that will no doubt drive the future of mental health treatments.

这是一个重要的研究领域，对我们在新闻中读到的许多事件（无论是不幸的还是幸运的事件）都有直接影响，这无疑将推动心理健康治疗的未来。

Dr. Anderson is considered one of the most pioneering and important researchers in neurobiology of our time.

安德森博士被认为是当代神经生物学领域最具开拓性和最重要的研究人员之一。

Indeed, he is a member of the National Academy of Sciences and a Howard Hughes Medical Institute investigator.

事实上，他是美国国家科学院院士和霍华德休斯医学研究所研究员。

I've mentioned the HHMI once or twice before when we've had other HHMI guests on this podcast, but for those of you that are not familiar, the Howard Hughes Medical Institute funds a small number of investigators doing particularly high-risk, high-benefit work, and it is an extremely competitive process to identify those Howard Hughes investigators.

当我们在这个播客中邀请其他霍华德休斯医学研究所的嘉宾时，我曾经提到过霍华德休斯医学研究所一两次，但对于那些不熟悉的人来说，霍华德休斯医学研究所资助了少数从事特别高风险、高收益工作的研究人员，而识别这些霍华德休斯研究人员是一个极其竞争的过程。

They are essentially appointed, and then every five years, they have to compete against one another and against a new incoming flock of would-be HHMI investigators to get another five years of funding.

他们基本上是被任命的，然后每五年，他们必须相互竞争，并与一批新加入的潜在的 HHMI 调查员竞争，以获得另外五年的资助。

They are literally given a grade every five years as to whether or not they can continue, not continue, or whether or not they should worry about being funded for an extended period of time.

事实上，他们每五年就会得到一次评分，以确定他们是否可以继续、不继续，或者是否应该担心长时间得不到资助。

Dr. Anderson has been an investigator with the Howard Hughes Medical Institute since 1989.

安德森博士自 1989 年以来一直是霍华德休斯医学研究所的研究员。

Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.

在开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。

It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public.

然而，我的愿望和努力的一部分是向公众提供有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本消费者信息。

In keeping with that theme, I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast.

为了与这个主题保持一致，我要感谢今天播客的赞助商。

And now for my discussion with Dr. David Anderson.

现在我与大卫·安德森博士进行讨论。

David, great to be here and great to finally sit down and chat with you.

大卫，很高兴来到这里，也很高兴终于坐下来和你聊天。

Dr. David Anderson:

大卫·安德森博士：

Great to be here too.

也很高兴来到这里。

Thank you so much.

太感谢了。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

I have a ton of questions, but I want to start with something fairly basic, but that I'm aware is a pretty vast landscape, and that's the difference between emotions and states, if indeed there is a difference, and how we should think about emotions.

我有很多问题，但我想从一些相当基本的问题开始，但我知道这是一个相当广阔的领域，这就是情绪和状态之间的差异（如果确实存在差异），以及我们应该如何思考情绪。

What are they?

这些是什么？

They have all these names, happiness, sadness, depression, anger, rage.

他们有所有这些名字，快乐、悲伤、沮丧、愤怒、愤怒。

How should we think about them, and why might states be at least as useful a thing to think about, if not more useful?

我们应该如何思考它们？为什么国家至少是同样有用的事情，甚至更有用？

Dr. David Anderson:

大卫·安德森博士：

That's great.

太好了。

First, the short answer to your question is that I see emotions as a type of internal state, in the sense that arousal is also a type of internal state.

首先，对你的问题的简短回答是，我将情绪视为一种内部状态，从某种意义上说，唤醒也是一种内部状态。

Motivation's a type of internal state.

动机是一种内部状态。

Sleep is a type of internal state.

睡眠是一种内部状态。

And the sort of simplest way I think of internal states is that, as you've shown in your own work, they change the input to output transformation of the brain.

我认为内部状态最简单的方式是，正如您在自己的工作中所展示的那样，它们改变了大脑的输入到输出的转换。

When you're asleep, you don't hear something that you would hear if you were awake, unless it's a really, really loud noise.

当您睡着时，您不会听到清醒时会听到的声音，除非是非常非常大的噪音。

So from that broad perspective, I see emotion as a class of state that controls behavior.

因此，从广泛的角度来看，我将情绪视为控制行为的一类状态。

The reason I think it's useful to think about it as a state is it puts the focus on it as a neurobiological process rather than as a psychological process.

我认为将其视为一种状态是有用的，因为它将重点放在神经生物学过程而不是心理过程上。

And this gets around all of the definitional problems that people have with the word emotion, where many people equate emotion with feeling, which is a subjective sense that we can only study in humans, because to find out what someone's feeling, you have to ask them, and people are the only animals that can talk that we can understand.

这解决了人们对“情感”这个词的所有定义问题，许多人将情感与感觉等同起来，这是一种我们只能在人类身上研究的主观感觉，因为要了解某人的感受，你必须询问他们，而人是唯一我们能理解的会说话的动物。

So that's how I think about emotion.

这就是我对情感的看法。

If you think of an iceberg, it's the part of the iceberg that's below the surface of the water.

如果您想到冰山，它就是冰山位于水面以下的部分。

The feeling part is the tip that's sort of floating above the surface of your consciousness.

感觉部分是漂浮在你意识表面之上的尖端。

Not that that isn't important.

并不是说那不重要。

It is.

这是。

But you have to understand consciousness if you want to understand feelings, and we're not ready to study that in animals yet.

但如果你想了解感受，你就必须了解意识，而我们还没有准备好在动物身上进行研究。

And so that's how I think about it.

这就是我的想法。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

What are the different components of a state?

国家有哪些不同的组成部分？

You mentioned arousal as a key component.

您提到唤醒是一个关键组成部分。

What are some of the other features of states that represent this, as you so beautifully put in your book, that represent below the tip of the iceberg?

正如您在书中如此精美地阐述的那样，代表这一点的国家还有哪些其他特征，这些特征代表了冰山一角？

Dr. David Anderson:

大卫·安德森博士：

Right.

对。

So, you can break states up into different facets, or people would call them dimensions.

因此，您可以将状态分解为不同的方面，或者人们将它们称为维度。

And so there have been people who have thought of emotions as having just really two dimensions, an arousal dimension, how intense is it, and also a valence dimension, which is, is it positive or negative, good or bad?

因此，有人认为情绪实际上只有两个维度，一个是唤醒维度，它有多强烈，还有一个效价维度，即它是积极的还是消极的，好还是坏？

Ralph Adolphs and I have tried to expand that a little bit to think about components of emotion, particularly those that distinguish emotion states from motivational states, because they are very closely related.

拉尔夫·阿道夫和我试图稍微扩展一下这一点，以思考情绪的组成部分，特别是那些区分情绪状态和动机状态的成分，因为它们非常密切相关。

One of those important properties is persistence.

这些重要的特性之一就是持久性。

And this is something that distinguishes state-driven behaviors from simple reflexes.

这就是状态驱动行为与简单反射的区别。

Reflexes tend to terminate when the stimulus turns off, like the doctor hitting your knee with a hammer.

当刺激消失时，反射往往会终止，就像医生用锤子敲击你的膝盖一样。

It initiates with the stimulus onset, and it terminates with the stimulus offset.

它随着刺激开始而开始，随着刺激抵消而终止。

Emotions tend to outlast, often, the stimulus that evoke them.

情绪往往比引发情绪的刺激更持久。

If you're walking along a trail here in Southern California, you hear a rattlesnake rattling, you're going to jump in the air, but your heart is going to continue to beat, and your palms sweat, and your mouth is going to be dry for a while after it's slithered off in the bush, and you're going to be hypervigilant.

如果你在南加州的一条小路上行走，你听到响尾蛇嘎嘎作响，你会跳到空中，但你的心脏会继续跳动，你的手掌会出汗，在它从灌木丛中滑落后，你的嘴会干燥一段时间，你会变得高度警惕。

If you see something that even remotely looks snake-like, a stick, you're going to stop and jump.

如果你看到一些看起来像蛇的东西，比如一根棍子，你就会停下来跳起来。

So persistence is an important feature of emotion states.

所以持久性是情绪状态的一个重要特征。

Not all states have persistence.

并非所有国家都有毅力。

So, for example, you think about hunger.

举例来说，你会想到饥饿。

Once you've eaten, the state is gone.

一旦你吃完饭，状态就消失了。

You're not hungry anymore.

你不再饿了。

But if you're really angry and you get into a fight with somebody, even after the fight is over, you may remain riled up for a long time, and it takes you a while to calm down.

但如果你真的很生气，和某人打架，即使打架结束了，你也可能会愤怒很长时间，需要一段时间才能平静下来。

And that may have to do with the arousal dimension or some other part of it.

这可能与唤醒维度或其中的其他部分有关。

And then generalization is an important component of emotion states that make them, if they have been triggered in one situation, they can apply to another situation.

泛化是情绪状态的重要组成部分，如果它们在一种情况下被触发，它们就可以适用于另一种情况。

And my favorite example of that is you come home from work, and your kid is screaming.

我最喜欢的例子是，你下班回家，你的孩子在尖叫。

If you had a good day at work, you might pick it up and soothe it.

如果你工作了一天，你可能会拿起它并舒缓它。

And if you had a bad day at work, you might react very differently to it and scream at it.

如果你今天工作很糟糕，你的反应可能会大不相同，甚至会大喊大叫。

And so that's a generalization of the state that was triggered at work by something your boss said to you to a completely different interaction.

因此，这是工作中由老板对你说的话触发的状态的概括，这是一种完全不同的互动。

And again, that's something that distinguishes emotion states from motivation states.

这又是情绪状态和动机状态的区别。

Motivation states are really specific.

动机状态确实很具体。

Find and eat food, obtain and consume water, and they're involved in homeostatic maintenance.

寻找和食用食物，获取和消耗水，它们参与体内平衡的维持。

So states are very multifaceted, and just asking questions about how these components of states are encoded, like what makes a state persist, what gives a state a positive or a negative valence, how do you crank up or crank down the intensity of the state, it just opens up a whole bunch of questions that you can ask in the brain with the kinds of tools we have now.

因此，状态是非常多方面的，只要问关于状态的这些组成部分是如何编码的问题，比如是什么使状态持续存在，什么赋予状态正价或负价，如何提高或降低状态的强度，它就会提出一大堆问题，你可以用我们现在拥有的各种工具在大脑中提出这些问题。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You mentioned arousal a few times, and you mentioned valence.

您多次提到了觉醒，还提到了效价。

Realizing that there are these other aspects of states, I'd like to just talk about arousal a little bit more and valence, because at a very basic level, it seems to me that arousal, we can be very alert and pissed off, stressed, worried.

意识到状态还有这些其他方面，我想多谈谈唤醒和效价，因为在一个非常基本的层面上，在我看来，唤醒，我们可以非常警觉、生气、压力、担心。

You could have insomnia.

你可能会失眠。

We can also be very alert and be quite happy.

我们也可以非常警觉并且非常快乐。

So the valence flips.

所以价态翻转。

People can be sexually aroused.

人们可以被性唤起。

People can be aroused in all sorts of ways.

人们可以通过各种方式被唤醒。

Is there any simple or simple-ish neurochemical signature that can flip valence?

是否有任何简单或简单的神经化学特征可以翻转价态？

So, for instance, is there any way that we can safely say that arousal with some additional dopamine release is going to be of positive valence, and arousal with very low dopamine is going to be of negative valence?

那么，例如，有没有什么方法可以让我们有把握地说，额外释放多巴胺的唤醒将具有正价，而多巴胺释放量非常低的唤醒将具有负价？

Dr. David Anderson:

大卫·安德森博士：

I would be reluctant to say that it's a chemical flip.

我不愿意说这是化学翻转。

I would say it's more likely to be a circuit flip, different circuits being engaged, and it might be that a given neurochemical, even dopamine, is involved in both positively valenced arousal and negatively valenced arousal.

我想说，这更有可能是电路翻转，不同的电路参与，并且可能是特定的神经化学物质，甚至多巴胺，都参与正价唤醒和负价唤醒。

That's why people think about these as different axes.

这就是为什么人们将它们视为不同的轴。

So I think the interesting question that you touch on is, is arousal something that is just completely generic in the brain, or are there actually different kinds of arousal that are specific to different behaviors?

所以我认为你提到的一个有趣的问题是，唤醒是大脑中完全通用的东西，还是实际上存在针对不同行为的不同类型的唤醒？

And you raise the question, sexual arousal feels different from aggressive arousal, for example.

你提出了一个问题，例如，性唤起的感觉与攻击性唤起的感觉不同。

And we actually published a paper on this back in 2009 in fruit flies, where we found some evidence for two types of arousal states, one of which is sleep-wake arousal.

实际上，我们早在 2009 年就在果蝇中发表了一篇相关论文，其中我们发现了两种唤醒状态的一些证据，其中之一是睡眠-觉醒唤醒状态。

You're more aroused when you wake up than when you're asleep, and flies show that.

当你醒来时，你会比睡着时更兴奋，苍蝇就证明了这一点。

And the other is a A startle response, an arousal response to a mechanical stimulus, a noxious mechanical stimulus.

另一种是惊吓反应，对机械刺激的唤醒反应，有害的机械刺激。

If you puff air on flies, kind of like trying to swat the wasp away from your burger at a picnic table, they come back more and more and more vigorously.

如果你向苍蝇吹气，就像在野餐桌上试图将黄蜂从你的汉堡上拍走一样，它们会越来越猛烈地回来。

And we were able to dissect this and show that although both of those forms of arousal required dopamine, they were exerted through completely separable neural circuits in the fly.

我们能够对此进行剖析并表明，尽管这两种形式的唤醒都需要多巴胺，但它们是通过果蝇中完全分离的神经回路发挥作用的。

And so that really put, number one, the emphasis on it's the circuit that determines the type of arousal, but also that arousal isn't unitary, that there are behavior-specific forms of arousal.

因此，第一，强调的是决定唤醒类型的回路，但唤醒并不是单一的，存在特定于行为的唤醒形式。

And I think the jury is still out as to whether there is such a thing as completely generalized arousal or not.

我认为，对于是否存在完全普遍的性唤起这一问题，目前还没有定论。

I think some people would argue there is, but I think more attention needs to be paid to this question of domain-specific or behavior-specific forms of arousal.

我认为有些人会认为确实存在，但我认为需要更多地关注特定领域或特定行为的唤醒形式的问题。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

It's a super interesting idea because I always thought of arousal as along a continuum, like you can either be in a panic attack at the one end of the extreme, or you can be in a coma, and then somewhere in the middle, you're alert and calm.

这是一个非常有趣的想法，因为我一直认为唤醒是一个连续体，就像你可能在极端的一端陷入恐慌，或者你可能处于昏迷状态，然后在中间的某个地方，你变得警觉和平静。

But then this issue of valence really, as you say, presents this opportunity that really there might be multiple circuits for arousal or-

但是，正如你所说，这个效价问题确实提供了这个机会，实际上可能存在多个唤醒回路或-

Dr. David Anderson:

大卫·安德森博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

multiple mechanisms that would include neurochemicals as well as different neural pathways.

多种机制，包括神经化学物质以及不同的神经通路。

So I'd like to talk a bit about a state, if it is indeed a state, which is aggression.

所以我想谈谈一个国家，如果它确实是一个国家，那就是侵略。

Your lab's worked extensively on this.

你们的实验室在这方面做了广泛的工作。

And if you would, could you highlight some of the key findings there, which brain areas are involved, the beautiful work of Dayu Lin and others in your lab, that point to the idea that indeed there are kind of switches in the brain, but that thinking of switches for aggression might be too simple.

如果你愿意的话，你能否强调一下那里的一些关键发现，涉及哪些大脑区域，林大宇和你实验室其他人的出色工作，这些都表明大脑中确实存在某种开关，但认为攻击性开关可能太简单了。

How should we think about aggression?

我们应该如何看待攻击性？

And I'll just sort of skew the question a bit more by saying, we see lots of different kinds of aggression.

我会稍微歪曲这个问题，说我们看到了很多不同类型的攻击行为。

This terrible school shooting down in Texas recently, clearly an act that included aggression, and yet you could imagine that's a very different type of aggression than an all-out rage or a controlled aggression.

最近在德克萨斯州发生了这起可怕的学校枪击事件，显然是一种包含侵略的行为，但你可以想象这是一种与全面愤怒或有控制的侵略截然不同的侵略类型。

There's a lot of variation there.

那里有很多变化。

So, what are your thoughts on aggression, how it's generated, the neural circuit mechanisms, and some of the variation in what we call aggression?

那么，您对攻击性有何看法？攻击性是如何产生的、神经回路机制以及我们所说的攻击性的一些变化？

Dr. David Anderson:

大卫·安德森博士：

Yeah, this is a great question, and it's a large area.

是的，这是一个很大的问题，而且涉及面很大。

I would say that first of all, the word aggression in my mind refers more to a description of behavior than it does to an internal state.

我想说，首先，我心目中的“攻击性”一词更多地指的是对行为的描述，而不是内部状态。

Aggression could reflect an internal state that we would call anger in humans, or it could reflect fear, or it could reflect hunger if it's predatory aggression.

攻击性可以反映一种我们称之为人类愤怒的内部状态，或者可以反映恐惧，或者如果是掠夺性攻击，则可以反映饥饿。

And so this gets at the issue that you raised of the different types of aggression that exist.

因此，这涉及到您提出的存在不同类型的侵略的问题。

The work that Dayu did when she was in my lab, that really broke open the field to the application of modern genetic tools for studying circuits in mice, is that she found a way to evoke aggression in mice using optogenetics to activate specific neurons in a region of the hypothalamus, the ventromedial hypothalamus, VMH, which people had been studying and looking at for decades, following first the work in cats, the famous Nobel Prize-winning work of Walter Hess, and then followed by work done by Menno Kroon in the Netherlands in rats where they would stick electrical wires into the brain and send electric currents into the brain, and they could trigger a placid cat to suddenly bare its teeth, hiss, and almost strike out at the experimenter.

大宇在我的实验室所做的工作，真正开创了应用现代遗传工具研究小鼠回路的领域，是她找到了一种方法，利用光遗传学激活下丘脑腹内侧下丘脑（VMH）区域的特定神经元，激发小鼠的攻击性，人们已经研究和观察了该区域数十年，首先是在猫身上的工作，沃尔特·赫斯（Walter Hess）著名的诺贝尔奖获奖工作，然后是工作荷兰的门诺·克鲁恩（Menno Kroon）在老鼠身上进行了这项研究，他们将电线插入大脑并向大脑发送电流，它们可以触发一只平静的猫突然露出牙齿，发出嘶嘶声，几乎要向实验者发起攻击。

And they could trigger rats to fight with each other.

它们可能会引发老鼠互相打斗。

And even in Hess's original experiments, he describes two types of aggression that he evokes from cats, depending on where in the hypothalamus he puts his electrode.

即使在赫斯最初的实验中，他也描述了他从猫身上引起的两种攻击行为，这取决于他将电极放置在下丘脑的位置。

One of which he calls defensive rage, that's the ears laid back, teeth bared, and hissing.

其中一种他称之为防御性愤怒，即耳朵后仰、露出牙齿、发出嘶嘶声。

And the other one is predatory aggression, where the cat has its ears forward, and it's batting with its paw at a mouse-like object like it wants to catch it and eat it.

另一种是掠夺性攻击，猫将耳朵向前，用爪子击打类似老鼠的物体，就像它想抓住它并吃掉它一样。

So he already had, at that stage, some information about segregation in the brain of different forms of aggression.

因此，在那个阶段，他已经掌握了一些关于大脑中不同形式的攻击性隔离的信息。

So fast-forward to 2008, 2009, when Dayu came to the lab, and we had started working on aggression in fruit flies, and I wanted to bring it into mice so that we could apply genetic tools.

快进到 2008 年、2009 年，当大宇来到实验室时，我们开始研究果蝇的攻击性，我想将其引入小鼠体内，以便我们可以应用遗传工具。

And we started by having Dayu, who was an electrophysiologist, just repeat the electrical stimulation of the ventromedial hypothalamus in the mouse, just like people had done in rats, in cats, in hamsters, even in monkeys.

我们首先让电生理学家大宇对小鼠的下丘脑腹内侧进行重复电刺激，就像人们对大鼠、猫、仓鼠甚至猴子所做的那样。

And she could not get that experiment to work over 40 different trials.

她无法让这个实验在 40 多个不同的试验中发挥作用。

It just didn't work.

它只是不起作用。

What she got instead was fear behaviors.

相反，她得到的是恐惧行为。

She got freezing, cornering, and crouching.

她浑身僵硬，转过弯，蹲下身子。

And finally, in desperation, and we got a lot of input from Menno Kroon on this.

最后，在绝望中，我们从 Menno Kroon 那里得到了很多关于此事的意见。

He really was mystified, why doesn't it work in mice?

他实在是纳闷了，为什么在老鼠身上不起作用呢？

We realized why there had been no paper on brain-stimulated aggression in mice in 50 years, because the experiment doesn't work.

我们意识到为什么 50 年来没有关于小鼠大脑刺激攻击性的论文，因为实验不起作用。

And the one bit of credit I can claim there is I convinced Dayu to try optogenetics, because it just had sort of come into use deep in the brain from Karl Deisseroth and others' work.

我可以说的一点功劳是，我说服了大宇尝试光遗传学，因为卡尔·戴瑟罗斯和其他人的工作已经在大脑深处使用了它。

And I thought maybe because it could be directed more specifically to a region of the brain and types of cells than optogenetics stimulate, than electrical stimulation, it might work.

我想也许是因为它可以比光遗传学刺激、电刺激更具体地针对大脑的某个区域和细胞类型，所以它可能会起作用。

And Dayu said, "Never going to work.

大禹说：“永远不去工作。

If it doesn't work with electricity, why should it work with optogenetics?" And the fact is that it did work, and we were able to trigger aggression in this region using optogenetic stimulation of ventromedial hypothalamus.

如果它不能用电来工作，为什么要用光遗传学来工作呢？”事实是它确实有效，我们能够利用下丘脑腹内侧的光遗传学刺激来引发该区域的攻击性。

And in retrospect, I think the reason that we were seeing all these fear behaviors is because right at the upper part, if you think of ventromedial hypothalamus like a pear sitting on the ground, the fat part of the pear near the ground is where the aggression neurons are, but the upper part of the pair has fear neurons.

回想起来，我认为我们看到所有这些恐惧行为的原因是因为在上部，如果你把腹内侧下丘脑想象成一个坐在地上的梨，靠近地面的梨的脂肪部分就是攻击性神经元所在的地方，但这对神经元的上部有恐惧神经元。

And it could be because it's so small in a mouse, when you inject electrical current anywhere in the pair, it flows up through the entire pair, and it activates the fear circuits, and those totally dominate aggression.

这可能是因为它在老鼠身上太小了，当你在小鼠中的任何地方注入电流时，它会向上流过整个小鼠，并激活恐惧电路，而这些电路完全控制了攻击性。

And so that's why we were never able to see any fighting with electrical stimulation.

这就是为什么我们从未见过任何使用电刺激的战斗。

Whereas when you use optogenetics, you confine the stimulation just to the region where you've implanted the channelrhodopsin gene into those neurons.

而当您使用光遗传学时，您将刺激仅限于将视紫红质通道蛋白基因植入这些神经元的区域。

And so, fast-forward from that, from a lot of work from Dayu now on her own at NYU and with her postdoc, Anna Grete Faulkner, as well as work of other people, there's evidence that the type of fighting that we elicit when we stimulate VMH is offensive aggression that is actually rewarding to male mice.

因此，快进一下，从 Dayu 现在在纽约大学和她的博士后 Anna Grete Faulkner 所做的大量工作以及其他人的工作来看，有证据表明，当我们刺激 VMH 时，我们引发的战斗类型是进攻性攻击，这实际上对雄性老鼠有利。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

They like it.

他们喜欢它。

Dr. David Anderson:

大卫·安德森博士：

They like it.

他们喜欢它。

Male mice will learn to poke their nose or press a bar to get the opportunity to beat up a subordinate male mouse.

雄性老鼠会学会戳鼻子或按杠，以获得殴打下级雄性老鼠的机会。

And in more recent experiments, if you activate those neurons and the mouse has a chance to be in one of two compartments in a box, they will gravitate towards the compartment where those neurons are activated.

在最近的实验中，如果激活这些神经元，并且小鼠有机会进入盒子中的两个隔间之一，它们将被吸引到激活这些神经元的隔间。

It has a positive valence.

它具有正价。

And when I went into this field, and I was thinking, "Well, what goes on in my brain and my body when I'm furious?" It certainly doesn't feel like a rewarding experience.

当我进入这个领域时，我在想，“那么，当我愤怒时，我的大脑和身体会发生什么？”这当然不是一次有益的经历。

It's not something that I would want to repeat because it feels good when I'm in that state.

这不是我想重复的事情，因为当我处于那种状态时感觉很好。

It doesn't feel good at all when I'm in that state.

当我处于那种状态时，感觉一点也不好。

And it is still, I think, a mystery as to where that type of aggression, which is more defensive aggression, the kind of aggression you feel if you're being attacked or if you've been cheated by somebody, where that is encoded in the brain and how that works still, I think, is a very important mystery that we haven't solved.

我认为，这种类型的攻击性（更具防御性的攻击性）、当你受到攻击或被某人欺骗时你感受到的攻击性、它在大脑中的编码位置以及它如何运作仍然是一个谜，我认为，这是一个我们尚未解决的非常重要的谜团。

And predatory aggression there has been some progress on.

掠夺性侵略方面已经取得了一些进展。

So mice show predatory aggression, they use that to catch crickets that they eat, and that involves different circuits than the ventromedial hypothalamic circuits.

因此，老鼠表现出掠夺性攻击性，它们用它来捕捉它们吃的蟋蟀，这涉及与腹内侧下丘脑回路不同的回路。

So it's become clear that if you want to call it the state of aggressiveness, is multifaceted, it depends on the type of aggression, and it involves different sorts of circuits.

所以很明显，如果你想称其为攻击性状态，它是多方面的，它取决于攻击性的类型，并且涉及不同类型的回路。

There's a paper suggesting that there might be a final common pathway for all aggression in a region which is one of my favorites, it's called the substantia innominata, the substance with no name.

有一篇论文提出，在我最喜欢的一个地区，所有的攻击行为可能有一个最终的共同途径，它被称为“无名物质”，即没有名字的物质。

I like these areas.

我喜欢这些领域。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Anatomists are so creative.

解剖学家太有创意了。

Dr. David Anderson:

大卫·安德森博士：

Yes.

是的。

Or the nucleus ambiguus, or the zona incerta.

或疑核，或未定带。

These are places that no one can think of what they are.

这些地方没人能想到它们是什么。

Anyhow, that might be a final common pathway for predatory aggression and offensive and defensive aggression.

无论如何，这可能是掠夺性侵略和攻防性侵略的最终共同途径。

But it can be really hard to tell just from looking at a mouse fight, whether it's engaged in offensive or defensive aggression.

但仅从老鼠的打斗来看，很难判断它是进攻性的还是防御性的。

We've tried to take that apart using machine learning analysis of behavior.

我们尝试使用机器学习行为分析来分解这一点。

But in rats, for example, it's much clearer when the animal is engaged in offensive versus defensive aggression.

但以老鼠为例，当动物进行进攻性攻击和防御性攻击时，情况就更清楚了。

They direct their bites at different parts of the opponent's body.

它们会咬住对手身体的不同部位。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

In particular-

特别是——

Dr. David Anderson:

大卫·安德森博士：

Offensive aggression is flank-directed, defensive aggression goes for the neck, goes for the throat.

进攻性攻击是针对侧翼的，防御性攻击是针对颈部、喉咙的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I've seen some nature specials where, in a very barbaric way, at least to me, it seems like hyenas will try and go after the reproductive axis.

我看过一些自然奇观，以一种非常野蛮的方式，至少对我来说，鬣狗似乎会试图追随生殖轴。

They'll go after testicles and penis, and it seems they want to limit future breeding potential.

它们会追逐睾丸和阴茎，似乎它们想限制未来的繁殖潜力。

Dr. David Anderson:

大卫·安德森博士：

Yes.

是的。

Or create pain.

或者制造痛苦。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right.

对。

Or create pain, or both.

或者制造痛苦，或者两者兼而有之。

Dr. David Anderson:

大卫·安德森博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

In terms of offensive aggression and your reflection that it doesn't feel good, I can say I know some people who really enjoy fighting.

就进攻性侵略和你的反映感觉不太好而言，我可以说我认识一些真正喜欢战斗的人。

Dr. David Anderson:

大卫·安德森博士：

Hmm.

嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I have a relative who's a lawyer.

我有一个亲戚是律师。

He loves to argue and fight.

他喜欢争论和打架。

Dr. David Anderson:

大卫·安德森博士：

Huh.

呵呵。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I don't think of him as physically aggressive.

我不认为他有身体攻击性。

In fact, he's not, but loves to fight and loves to prosecute and go after people, and he's pretty effective at it.

事实上，他不是，但他喜欢战斗，喜欢起诉和追捕别人，而且他在这方面非常有效。

Dr. David Anderson:

大卫·安德森博士：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I have a friend, former military special operations and very calm guy, had a great career in military special operations, and he'll quite plainly say, "I love to fight.

我有一个朋友，前军事特种作战人员，非常冷静的人，在军事特种作战中拥有出色的职业生涯，他会很坦率地说：“我喜欢战斗。

It's one of my great joys." He really enjoyed his work.

这是我最大的快乐之一。”他真的很喜欢他的工作。

Dr. David Anderson:

大卫·安德森博士：

Yep.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And also respected the other side because they offered the opportunity to test that and to experience that joy.

并且也尊重对方，因为他们提供了测试这一点并体验那种快乐的机会。

So in a kind of bizarre way, to somebody like me who I'll certainly Defend my stance if I need to.

因此，对于像我这样的人来说，如果需要的话，我肯定会捍卫我的立场，以一种奇怪的方式。

Dr. David Anderson:

大卫·安德森博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But I certainly don't consider myself somebody who offensively goes after people just to go after them.

但我当然不认为自己是一个为了追赶别人而进攻性地追赶他们的人。

There's no "dopamine hit" here.

这里没有“多巴胺刺激”。

Dr. David Anderson:

大卫·安德森博士：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Acknowledging that dopamine does many things, of course.

当然，承认多巴胺有很多作用。

Dr. David Anderson:

大卫·安德森博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I have a couple of questions about the way you describe the circuitry, or I should say the way the circuitry is arranged.

我有几个关于您描述电路的方式的问题，或者我应该说电路的排列方式。

Dr. David Anderson:

大卫·安德森博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And of course, we don't know because we weren't consulted at the design phase.

当然，我们不知道，因为我们在设计阶段没有咨询过。

But why do you think there would be such a close positioning of neurons that can elicit such divergent states and behaviors?

但你认为为什么神经元的位置如此紧密，会引发如此不同的状态和行为呢？

You're talking about this pear-shaped structure where the neurons that generate fear are cheek to jowl with the neurons that generate offensive aggression, of all things.

你谈论的是这种梨形结构，其中产生恐惧的神经元与产生进攻性攻击的神经元紧密相连。

It's like putting the neurons that control swallowing next to the neurons that control vomiting.

这就像将控制吞咽的神经元放在控制呕吐的神经元旁边。

It just seems to me that on the one hand, this is the way that neural circuits are often arranged, and yet to me, it's always been perplexing as to why this would be the case.

在我看来，一方面，这就是神经回路经常排列的方式，但对我来说，为什么会出现这种情况一直令人困惑。

Dr. David Anderson:

大卫·安德森博士：

Yeah, I think that is a very profound question, and I've wondered about that a lot.

是的，我认为这是一个非常深刻的问题，我对此想了很多。

If you think from an evolutionary perspective, it might have been the case that defensive behaviors and fear arose before offensive aggression.

如果你从进化的角度思考，可能是防御行为和恐惧出现在进攻性攻击之前。

Because animals, first and foremost, have to defend themselves from predation by other animals.

因为动物首先必须保护自己免受其他动物的捕食。

And maybe it's only when they're comfortable with having warded off predation and made themselves safe, that they can start to think about who's going to be the alpha male in my group here.

也许只有当它们对抵御捕食并确保自己安全感到满意时，它们才能开始考虑谁将成为我这里的雄性领袖。

And so it could be that if you think that brain regions and cell populations evolve by duplication and modification of preexisting cell populations, that might be the way that those regions wound up next to each other.

因此，如果你认为大脑区域和细胞群是通过先前存在的细胞群的复制和修改而进化的，那么这可能就是这些区域彼此相邻的方式。

And developmentally, they start out from a common pool of precursors that expresses the same gene, the fear neurons and the aggression neurons, and then with development, it gets shut off in the aggression neurons and maintained in the fear neurons.

在发育过程中，它们从表达相同基因的共同前体池开始，即恐惧神经元和攻击性神经元，然后随着发育，它在攻击性神经元中被关闭并在恐惧神经元中维持。

Now, that view says, oh, it's an accident of evolution and development, but I think there must be a functional part as well.

现在，这种观点说，哦，这是进化和发展的偶然，但我认为也必须有一个功能部分。

So one thing we know about offensive aggression is that strong fear shuts it down, whereas defensive aggression, at least in rats, is actually enhanced by fear.

因此，关于进攻性攻击，我们知道的一件事是，强烈的恐惧会阻止它，而防御性攻击，至少在老鼠身上，实际上会因恐惧而增强。

It's one of the big differences between defensive aggression and offensive aggression.

这是防御性侵略和进攻性侵略之间的巨大区别之一。

And if you think about it, if offensive aggression is rewarding and pleasurable, if you start to get really scared, that tends to take the fun out of it, and maybe these two regions are close to each other to facilitate inhibition of aggression by the fear neurons.

如果你想一想，如果进攻性攻击是有益且令人愉悦的，如果你开始变得非常害怕，这往往会失去乐趣，也许这两个区域彼此靠近，以促进恐惧神经元对攻击性的抑制。

We know for a fact that if we deliberately stimulate those fear neurons at the top of the pair, when two animals are involved in a fight, it just stops the fight dead in its tracks, and they go off into the corner and freeze.

我们知道一个事实，如果我们故意刺激配对顶部的恐惧神经元，那么当两只动物卷入一场战斗时，它只会让战斗停止，然后它们就会躲到角落里并僵住。

So at least hierarchically, it seems like fear is the dominant behavior over offensive aggression, and how that inhibition would work is not clear, because all these neurons are pretty much excitatory.

因此，至少从层次上来看，恐惧似乎是相对于进攻性攻击的主导行为，而这种抑制如何发挥作用尚不清楚，因为所有这些神经元都非常兴奋。

They're almost all glutamatergic.

它们几乎都是谷氨酸能的。

And so one of the interesting questions for the future is how exactly does fear dominate over and shut down offensive aggression in the brain?

因此，未来有趣的问题之一是，恐惧究竟如何主导并阻止大脑中的进攻性攻击？

How does that work?

这是如何运作的？

Is it all circuitry?

都是电路吗？

Are there chemicals involved?

是否涉及化学物质？

What's the mechanism, and when is it called into play?

其机制是什么？何时发挥作用？

But I think that's the way I tend to think about why these neurons are all mixed up together.

但我认为这就是我思考为什么这些神经元全部混合在一起的方式。

And it's not just fight and freezing, or fight and flight.

这不仅仅是战斗和冻结，或者战斗和逃跑。

There are also metabolic neurons that are mixed together in VMH as well.

VMH 中也有混合在一起的代谢神经元。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Controlling body-wide metabolism?

控制全身新陈代谢？

Dr. David Anderson:

大卫·安德森博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Interesting.

有趣。

Dr. David Anderson:

大卫·安德森博士：

There are neurons there that respond to glucose.

那里有对葡萄糖做出反应的神经元。

When glucose goes up in your bloodstream, they're activated.

当血液中的葡萄糖升高时，它们就会被激活。

And VMH has a whole history in the field of obesity, because if you destroy it in a rat, you get a fat rat.

VMH 在肥胖领域有着悠久的历史，因为如果你在老鼠身上摧毁它，你就会得到一只肥胖的老鼠。

So the way most of the world thinks about VMH is they think about, oh, that's the thing that keeps you from getting fat.

所以世界上大多数人对 VMH 的看法是，哦，这就是让你不发胖的东西。

It's the anti-obesity area.

这是抗肥胖领域。

But in the area of social behavior, we see it as a center for control of aggression and fear behaviors.

但在社会行为领域，我们将其视为控制攻击性和恐惧行为的中心。

And again, why these neurons and these functions, I like to call them the four Fs, feeding, freezing, fighting, and mating, that they all seem to be closely intermingled with each other, may be because crosstalk between them is very important to help the animal's brain decide what behavior to prioritize and what behavior to shut down at any given moment.

再说一次，为什么这些神经元和这些功能，我喜欢将它们称为四个F，即进食、冷冻、战斗和交配，它们似乎彼此紧密地混合在一起，可能是因为它们之间的串扰对于帮助动物的大脑决定在任何特定时刻优先考虑哪些行为以及关闭哪些行为非常重要。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

One of the things that we will do is link to the incredible videos of these mice that have selective stimulation of neurons in the VMH, Daiju's and the other studies that you've done.

我们要做的一件事就是链接到这些小鼠的令人难以置信的视频，这些小鼠对 VMH、Daiju 和您所做的其他研究中的神经元进行选择性刺激。

Whenever I teach, I show those videos at some point, with the caveats and warnings that are required when one is about to see a video of a mouse trying to mate with another mouse, or mating with another mouse, and they seem both to be quite happy about the mating experience, at least as far as we know as observers of mice.

每当我教学时，我都会在某些时候播放这些视频，其中包含当人们即将看到一只老鼠试图与另一只老鼠交配或与另一只老鼠交配的视频时所需要的警告和警告，并且他们似乎都对交配经历感到非常满意，至少就我们作为老鼠观察者而言是这样。

And then upon stimulation of those VMH neurons, one of the mice essentially tries to kill the other mouse.

然后，在刺激这些 VMH 神经元后，其中一只小鼠实际上会试图杀死另一只小鼠。

And then when that stimulation is stopped, they basically go back to hanging out.

然后当刺激停止时，他们基本上就会回到闲逛状态。

They don't go right back to mating.

它们不会立即回去交配。

Dr. David Anderson:

大卫·安德森博士：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

There's some reconciliation, clearly, that needs to happen first

显然，首先需要进行一些和解

Dr. David Anderson:

大卫·安德森博士：

Yes

是的

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

we assume.

我们假设。

But it's just so striking.

但它是如此引人注目。

I think equally striking is the video where the mouse is alone in there with the glove The VMH neurons are stimulated, and the mouse goes into a rage.

我认为同样引人注目的是视频中，老鼠独自一人戴着手套，VMH 神经元受到刺激，老鼠变得愤怒。

It looks like it wants to kill the glove-

看起来它想要杀死手套——

Dr. David Anderson:

大卫·安德森博士：

Yep

是的

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

basically.

基本上。

So striking.

太引人注目了。

I encourage people to go watch those because it really puts a tremendous amount of color on what we're describing, and it's just the idea that there are switches in the brain, to me, really became clear upon seeing that.

我鼓励人们去看这些，因为它确实给我们所描述的内容增添了巨大的色彩，而且对我来说，大脑中存在开关的想法在看到这一点后真的变得很清楚。

One of the concepts that you've raised in your lectures before, and that I think was Hess's idea, is this idea of a sort of hydraulic pressure.

您之前在讲座中提出的概念之一，我认为是赫斯的想法，是一种液压的想法。

Dr. David Anderson:

大卫·安德森博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Or maybe it was Konrad.

或者也许是康拉德。

I can't speak now.

我现在不能说话。

Excuse me.

打扰一下。

Konrad Lorenz-

康拉德·洛伦兹-

Dr. David Anderson:

大卫·安德森博士：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

pardon, who talked about a kind of hydraulic pressure towards behavior.

请原谅，他谈到了一种对行为的液压。

I'm fascinated by this idea of hydraulic pressure, because I don't consider myself a hot-tempered person, but I am familiar with the fact that when I lose my temper, it takes quite a while for me to simmer down.

我对液压的想法很着迷，因为我不认为自己是一个脾气暴躁的人，但我知道当我发脾气时，我需要很长时间才能平静下来。

I can't think about anything else.

我无法思考其他事情。

I don't want to think about anything else.

我不想考虑任何其他事情。

In fact, trying to think about anything else becomes aversive to me, which to me underscores this notion of prioritization-

事实上，尝试思考其他事情对我来说变得令人厌恶，这对我来说强调了这种优先顺序的概念——

Dr. David Anderson:

大卫·安德森博士：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

of the different states and potentially conflicting states.

不同国家和潜在冲突国家的情况。

What do you think funnels into this idea of hydraulic pressure toward a state?

你认为水压对国家的影响是怎样的？

And why is it, perhaps, that sometimes we can be very angry, and if we succeed in winning an argument, all of a sudden it will subside?

也许，为什么有时候我们会非常生气，如果我们成功地赢得了一场争论，它会突然平息下来？

Because clearly, that means that there are external influences.

因为显然，这意味着存在外部影响。

It's a complex space here that we're creating.

我们正在创造一个复杂的空间。

I realize I'm creating a bit-

我意识到我正在创造一点-

Dr. David Anderson:

大卫·安德森博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

of a cloud, and I'm doing it on purpose because to me, the idea of a hydraulic pressure towards a state, like sleep, there's a sleep pressure.

云的形状，我是故意这样做的，因为对我来说，对一种状态的液压的想法，比如睡眠，存在睡眠压力。

Dr. David Anderson:

大卫·安德森博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

There's a pressure towards aggression.

有一种攻击性的压力。

That all makes sense.

这一切都是有道理的。

But what's involved?

但这涉及什么？

Is it too multifactorial to actually separate out the variables?

是否因素太多而无法真正分离出变量？

But what's really driving hydraulic pressure toward a given state?

但真正推动液压达到给定状态的因素是什么？

Dr. David Anderson:

大卫·安德森博士：

Yeah.

是的。

So, really important question.

所以，非常重要的问题。

I think one way that is helpful, at least for me, to break this question apart and think about it, is to distinguish homeostatic behaviors, that is need-based behaviors, where the pressure is built up because of a need, like, I'm hungry, I need to eat, I'm thirsty, I need to drink, I'm hot, I need to get to a cold place.

我认为，至少对我来说，分解这个问题并思考它的一种方法是有帮助的，那就是区分稳态行为，即基于需求的行为，压力是因为需求而积累的，比如，我饿了，我需要吃东西，我渴了，我需要喝水，我很热，我需要去一个寒冷的地方。

It's basically the thermostat model of your brain.

它基本上是你大脑的恒温器模型。

You have a set point, and then if the temperature gets too hot, you turn on the AC, and if the temperature gets too cold, you turn on the heater, and you put yourself back to the set point.

你有一个设定点，如果温度太热，你就打开空调，如果温度太冷，你就打开加热器，然后你就把自己恢复到设定点。

I don't think that's how aggression works.

我不认为攻击性就是这样运作的。

It's not that we all go around, at least subjectively, I don't go around with an accumulating need to fight, which I then look for something, an excuse to release it.

这并不是说我们都会到处走动，至少主观上，我不会带着一种不断累积的战斗需求到处走动，然后我会寻找一些东西，一个释放它的借口。

Now, maybe there are people that do that, and they go out and look for bar fights to get into-

现在，也许有人这样做，他们出去寻找酒吧打架的机会——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Or Twitter.

或者推特。

Dr. David Anderson:

大卫·安德森博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Or Twitter.

或者推特。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Twitter seems to, I'm sort of half-joking because Twitter seems to draw a reasonably sized crowd of people that are there for combat of some sort.

Twitter 似乎是，我有点半开玩笑，因为 Twitter 似乎吸引了相当多的人在那里进行某种战斗。

Even though the total intellectual power of any of their comments is about that of a cap gun they seem to really like to fire off-

尽管他们的任何评论的总智力都是关于一把帽子枪的，但他们似乎真的很喜欢开火——

Dr. David Anderson:

大卫·安德森博士：

Right

右

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

that cap gun.

那把帽枪。

Dr. David Anderson:

大卫·安德森博士：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But I agree.

但我同意。

Dr. David Anderson:

大卫·安德森博士：

Yeah.

是的。

So you can think of this accumulated hydraulic pressure either being based on something that you were deprived of, creating an accumulating need, or something that you want to do, building up a drive or a pressure to do that.

因此，你可以认为这种积累的液压要么是基于你被剥夺的东西，创造了累积的需求，要么是你想做的事情，建立了这样做的动力或压力。

And the natural way to think about that, at least for me, is as gradual increases in neural activity in a particular region of the brain.

至少对我来说，自然的思考方式是大脑特定区域的神经活动逐渐增加。

And so for example, in the area of the hypothalamus that controls feeding, Scott Sternson and others have shown that the hungrier you get, the higher the level of activity in that region in the brain, and then when you eat, boom, the activity goes right back down again.

例如，在控制进食的下丘脑区域，斯科特·斯特恩森和其他人发现，你越饿，大脑中该区域的活动水平就越高，然后当你吃东西时，活动就会再次下降。

And that state is actually negatively valenced.

这种状态实际上是负价的。

So it's like the animal, quote-unquote, "feels" increasingly uncomfortable, just like we feel increasingly uncomfortable the hungrier we are, and then when we eat, it tamps it down.

所以，就像动物一样，不夸张地说，“感觉”越来越不舒服，就像我们越饿就越不舒服一样，然后当我们吃东西时，它就会把它压下来。

But there is this increased activity, and I think in the case of aggression, our data and others show that the more strongly you drive this region of the brain optogenetically, the more of just a hair trigger you need to set the animal off to get it to fight.

但这种活动会增加，我认为在攻击性的情况下，我们的数据和其他数据表明，你对大脑这个区域的光遗传学驱动越强，你就越需要一个毛发触发器来触发动物，让它进行战斗。

Now, the interesting thing is that if there is nothing for the animal to attack, it doesn't really do much when you're stimulating this region.

现在，有趣的是，如果动物没有什么可以攻击的东西，那么当你刺激这个区域时，它实际上并没有多大作用。

It sort of wanders around the cage a little bit more, but it will not actually show overt attack unless you put something in front of it.

它会在笼子里徘徊多一点，但它实际上不会表现出明显的攻击，除非你在它前面放一些东西。

And the same thing is true for the areas we've described that control mating behavior.

对于我们所描述的控制交配行为的区域也是如此。

This is what Lindsay is working on.

这就是 Lindsay 正在做的事情。

You can stimulate those areas till you're blue in the face, and the mouse just sort of wanders around.

你可以刺激这些区域，直到你脸色发青，而老鼠就会四处游荡。

But if you put another mouse in, wham, he will try to mount that mouse.

但如果你放入另一只鼠标，砰，他会尝试安装该鼠标。

If you put a kumquat in the cage, he'll try to mount the kumquat.

如果你把金橘放进笼子里，他就会尝试爬上金橘。

And so it becomes a sort of any port in the storm.

因此，它成为风暴中的任何一个港口。

So there is this idea that the drive is building up pressure that somehow needs to be released.

因此，有一种观点认为，驱动器正在积聚压力，需要以某种方式释放。

Where that Pressure is actually being exerted.

压力实际施加的地方。

If you accept that it's increased activity in some circuit or circuits someplace, what is it pushing up against that needs something else to sort of unplug it in the Lorentz hydraulic model?

如果您接受它在某些回路或某些回路中的活动增加，那么它在推动什么需要其他东西来在洛伦兹水力模型中拔掉它？

That is, you don't see the behavior until you release a valve on this bucket and let the accumulated pressure flow out.

也就是说，除非您释放该桶上的阀门并让累积的压力流出，否则您不会看到该行为。

And that's one of the things we're trying to study in the context of the mating behavior as well.

这也是我们在交配行为背景下尝试研究的事情之一。

How does the information that there's an object in front of you come together with this drive state that is generated by stimulating these neurons in the hypothalamus to say, "Okay, pull the trigger and go.

你面前有物体的信息如何与通过刺激下丘脑中的这些神经元产生的驱动状态结合在一起，说：“好吧，扣动扳机并开始。

It's time to mate, it's time to attack"?

是时候交配了，是时候攻击了”？

And we're just starting to get some insights into that now.

我们现在才刚刚开始对此有一些见解。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Fascinating.

令人着迷。

And I should mention, people, Dr. Anderson mentioned Lindsay.

我应该提一下，安德森博士提到了林赛。

Lindsay is a former graduate student of mine that's now a postdoc in David's lab, and I haven't caught up with her recently to hear about these experiments, but they sound fascinating.

Lindsay 是我以前的研究生，现在是 David 实验室的博士后，我最近没有联系到她了解这些实验，但它们听起来很有趣。

I would love to spend some time on this issue of why is it that a mouse won't attack nothing, but it'll attack even a glove, and why will it only try and mate if there's another mouse to mate with.

我很想花一些时间来讨论这个问题，为什么老鼠不会攻击任何东西，但它甚至会攻击手套，以及为什么只有在有另一只老鼠可以交配时它才会尝试交配。

It's actually, I think fortunately for you, you're not spending a lot of time on Twitter and Instagram or YouTube, but there's this whole online community that exists now.

事实上，我认为对你来说幸运的是，你没有在 Twitter、Instagram 或 YouTube 上花费大量时间，但现在已经存在了整个在线社区。

As far as I know, it's almost exclusively young males who are obsessed with this idea, I'll just say it, it has a name, it's called NoFap, of no masturbation as a way to maintain their motivation to go out and actually seek mates because of the ready availability of online pornography.

据我所知，几乎只有年轻男性痴迷于这个想法，我只想说，它有一个名字，叫做NoFap，因为网络色情内容随手可得，所以不通过手淫来保持外出和实际寻找伴侣的动力。

There's probably a much larger population of young males that are never actually going out and seeking mates because they're getting porn addicted, et cetera.

可能有更多的年轻男性从未真正出去寻找伴侣，因为他们对色情上瘾等等。

This is actually a serious issue that came up in our episode with Anna Lembke, who wrote the book "Dopamine Nation," because of the availability of pornography, there's a whole social context that's being created around this and genuine addiction.

这实际上是我们在安娜·伦布克（Anna Lembke）的节目中提出的一个严重问题，她写了《多巴胺国家》一书，因为色情作品的可用性，围绕这个和真正的成瘾正在创造一个完整的社会背景。

So humans are not like the mice, or mice are not like the humans.

所以人类不像老鼠，或者说老鼠不像人类。

Humans seem to resolve the issue on their own-

人类似乎可以自己解决这个问题——

Dr. David Anderson:

大卫·安德森博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

in ways that might actually impede seeking and finding of sexual partners and/or long-term mates.

实际上可能会阻碍寻找性伴侣和/或长期伴侣。

Dr. David Anderson:

大卫·安德森博士：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So serious issue there.

那里有如此严重的问题。

I raise it as a serious issue-

我把它作为一个严重的问题提出来——

Dr. David Anderson:

大卫·安德森博士：

Yep

是的

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

that I hear a lot about because I get asked hundreds if not thousands of questions about this.

我经常听到这个问题，因为我被问到了数百甚至数千个与此相关的问题。

Is there any physiological basis for what they call NoFap?

他们所谓的NoFap有什么生理学基础吗？

And I never actually reply because there's no data.

我从来没有真正回复过，因为没有数据。

Dr. David Anderson:

大卫·安德森博士：

Yep.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But what you're raising here is a very interesting mechanistic scenario that can, and as you mentioned, is being explored.

但你在这里提出的是一个非常有趣的机制场景，正如你所提到的，它正在被探索。

So what do we know about the internal state of a mouse whose VMH is being stimulated, or a mouse whose other brain region that can stimulate the desire to mate?

那么，对于 VMH 受到刺激的小鼠，或者其他大脑区域可以刺激交配欲望的小鼠，我们对内部状态了解多少呢？

What do we know about the internal state of that mouse if it's just alone in the cage wandering around?

如果这只老鼠独自在笼子里四处游荡，我们对它的内部状态了解多少？

Is it wandering around really wanting to mate and really wanting to fight?

它四处游荡是真的想交配还是真的想打架？

We, of course, don't know.

我们当然不知道。

But is its heart rate up?

但它的心率升高了吗？

Is its blood pressure up?

它的血压升高了吗？

Is it wishing that there was pornography?

是希望有色情内容吗？

Something's going on, presumably, that's different than prior to that stimulation, and is it arousal?

想必正在发生一些与刺激之前不同的事情，这是觉醒吗？

And what do you think it is about the visual or olfactory perception of a conspecific that ungates this tremendous repertoire of behaviors?

你认为同种人的视觉或嗅觉是如何释放出如此巨大的行为的？

Dr. David Anderson:

大卫·安德森博士：

Right.

对。

That is the central question.

这是核心问题。

I can say, at least with respect to the fear neurons that sit on top of the aggression neurons, we know that when those neurons are activated optogenetically in the same way we would activate the aggression neurons, that there's clearly an arousal process that's occurring.

我可以说，至少对于位于攻击性神经元之上的恐惧神经元，我们知道，当这些神经元以与我们激活攻击性神经元相同的方式被光遗传学激活时，显然正在发生一个唤醒过程。

You can see the pupils dilate in the animal.

你可以看到动物的瞳孔放大。

There is an increase in stress hormone release into the bloodstream.

血液中的应激激素释放增加。

We've shown that.

我们已经证明了这一点。

Heart rate goes up.

心率上升。

So in addition to the drive to actually freeze, which is what those animals do, there is autonomic arousal and neuroendocrine activation of stress responses, and some of that is probably shared by the aggression neurons and the mating neurons, although we haven't investigated it in as much detail.

因此，除了这些动物所做的真正冻结的驱动力之外，还有应激反应的自主唤醒和神经内分泌激活，其中一些可能是攻击性神经元和交配神经元所共有的，尽管我们还没有对此进行详细研究。

But I wouldn't be surprised because they project to many of the same regions that the fear neurons project to, which is a interesting issue in the context, to discuss later maybe, in the context of why we're comfortable with mental illnesses that are based on maladaptations of fear, but not mental illnesses that are based on maladaptations of aggression if they have pretty similar circuits in the brain.

但我不会感到惊讶，因为它们投射到许多与恐惧神经元投射到的相同区域，这是一个有趣的问题，也许稍后会讨论，为什么我们对基于恐惧适应不良的精神疾病感到满意，但对基于攻击性适应不良的精神疾病却感到不舒服，如果它们在大脑中有非常相似的回路。

But that's how I would imagine there is an arousal dimension, as you say.

但这就是我想象的，正如你所说，存在一个唤醒维度。

There are stress hormones that are activated.

有一些应激激素被激活。

These regions, VMH projects to about 30 different regions in the brain, and it gets input from about 30 different regions.

VMH 将这些区域投射到大脑中大约 30 个不同的区域，并从大约 30 个不同的区域获取输入。

So I kind of see it as both an antenna and a broadcasting center.

所以我认为它既是天线又是广播中心。

It's like a satellite dish that takes in information from different sensory modalities, smell, maybe vision, mechanosensation, and then it sort of synthesizes and integrates that into a fairly low-dimensional, as the computational people call it, representation of this pressure to attack, and it broadcasts that all over the brain to trigger all these systems that have to be brought into play if the animal is going to engage in aggression.

它就像一个卫星天线，从不同的感觉方式、嗅觉、也许是视觉、机械感觉中获取信息，然后将其合成并整合成一个相当低的维度，正如计算人员所说的那样，表示这种攻击压力，并将其广播到整个大脑，以触发所有这些系统，如果动物要进行攻击，这些系统就必须发挥作用。

Because aggression is a very risky thing for an animal to engage in.

因为攻击对于动物来说是一件非常危险的事情。

It could wind up losing, and it could wind up getting killed.

它可能最终会失败，也可能最终被杀死。

And so its brain constantly has to make a cost-benefit analysis of whether to continue on that path or to back off as well.

因此，它的大脑必须不断地进行成本效益分析，以决定是继续走这条路还是放弃。

And I think that part of this broadcasting function of this region is engaging all these other brain domains that play a role in this kind of cost-benefit analysis.

我认为该区域的部分广播功能正在吸引所有其他在这种成本效益分析中发挥作用的大脑区域。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I want to talk more about mating behavior, but as a segue to that, as we're talking about aggression and mating behavior, I think hormones.

我想更多地谈论交配行为，但作为一个延续，当我们谈论攻击性和交配行为时，我认为荷尔蒙。

And whenever there's an opportunity on this podcast to shatter a common myth, I grab it.

每当这个播客中有机会打破一个常见的神话时，我都会抓住它。

One of the common myths that's out there, and I think that persists, is that testosterone makes animals and humans aggressive, and estrogen makes animals placid and kind or emotional.

常见的误解之一（我认为这种说法仍然存在）是，睾丸激素使动物和人类具有攻击性，而雌激素使动物变得平静、友善或情绪化。

And as we both know, nothing could be further from the truth, although there's some truth to the idea that these hormones are all involved.

正如我们都知道的那样，尽管这些激素都参与其中的想法有一定道理，但事实并非如此。

Robert Sapolsky supplied some information to me when he came on this podcast that if you give people exogenous testosterone, it tends to make them more of the way they were before.

罗伯特·萨波尔斯基（Robert Sapolsky）在参加这个播客时向我提供了一些信息，如果你给人们外源性睾酮，它往往会让他们更像以前的样子。

If they were a jerk before, they'll become more of a jerk.

如果他们以前是个混蛋，那么他们会变得更加混蛋。

If they were very altruistic, they'll become more altruistic.

如果他们非常无私，他们就会变得更加无私。

And then eventually, I pointed out, you'll aromatize that testosterone into estrogen, and you'll start getting opposite effects.

最后，我指出，你会将睾酮芳香化为雌激素，你会开始得到相反的效果。

So it's a murky space.

所以这是一个黑暗的空间。

It's not straightforward.

这并不简单。

But if I'm not mistaken, testosterone plays a role in generating aggression.

但如果我没记错的话，睾丸激素在产生攻击性方面发挥着作用。

However, the specific hormones that are involved in generating aggression via VMH are things other than testosterone.

然而，通过 VMH 产生攻击性的特定激素并非睾酮。

Can you tell us a little bit more about that?

您能告诉我们更多相关信息吗？

Because there's some interesting surprises in there.

因为那里有一些有趣的惊喜。

Dr. David Anderson:

大卫·安德森博士：

Yeah.

是的。

That's a really important question.

这是一个非常重要的问题。

So when we finally identified the neurons in VMH that control aggression with a molecular marker, we found out that that marker was the estrogen receptor.

因此，当我们最终通过分子标记识别出 VMH 中控制攻击行为的神经元时，我们发现该标记就是雌激素受体。

So that might strike you as a little strange.

所以这可能会让你觉得有点奇怪。

Why should aggression-promoting neurons in male mice be labeled with the estrogen receptor?

为什么雄性小鼠的攻击性促进神经元应该用雌激素受体标记？

Other labs have shown that the estrogen receptor in adult male mice is necessary for aggression.

其他实验室已经表明，成年雄性小鼠的雌激素受体对于攻击性是必需的。

If you knock out the gene in VMH, they don't fight.

如果你敲除 VMH 中的基因，它们就不会打架。

And it's been shown, and a lot of this is work from your colleague, Nirao Shah at Stanford, who is one of my former PhD students, that if you castrate a mouse, and it loses the ability to fight, not only can you rescue fighting with a testosterone implant, but you can rescue it with an estrogen implant.

事实证明，这在很大程度上是你在斯坦福大学的同事尼拉奥·沙阿（Nirao Shah）的工作，他是我以前的博士生之一，如果你阉割了一只老鼠，它失去了战斗能力，你不仅可以用睾酮植入来挽救它的战斗能力，还可以用雌激素植入来挽救它。

So you can bypass completely the requirement for testosterone to restore aggressiveness to the mice.

因此，您可以完全绕过睾丸激素的要求来恢复小鼠的攻击性。

And as you say, it's because many of the effects of testosterone, although not all, many of them are mediated by its conversion to estrogen by a process called aromatization.

正如你所说，这是因为睾酮的许多作用（尽管不是全部）是由睾酮通过芳香化过程转化为雌激素来介导的。

It's carried out by an enzyme called aromatase.

它是由一种叫做芳香酶的酶完成的。

In fact, most of your listeners may have heard of aromatase because aromatase inhibitors are widely used in female humans as adjuvant chemotherapy for breast cancer.

事实上，大多数听众可能听说过芳香酶，因为芳香酶抑制剂广泛用于女性人类作为乳腺癌的辅助化疗。

They are a way of reducing the production of estrogen by preventing testosterone from being converted into estrogen.

它们是通过防止睾酮转化为雌激素来减少雌激素产生的一种方法。

And in fact, there are a lot of animal experiments showing if you give males aromatase inhibitors, they stop fighting as well as also stop being sexually active.

事实上，有很多动物实验表明，如果给雄性服用芳香酶抑制剂，它们就会停止打斗，也会停止性活跃。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. David Anderson:

大卫·安德森博士：

And so that's one of the counterintuitive ideas.

这是违反直觉的想法之一。

And Nirao has shown that progesterone also seems to play a role in aggression because these aggression neurons also express the progesterone receptor.

Nirao 已经证明，黄体酮似乎也在攻击性中发挥作用，因为这些攻击性神经元也表达黄体酮受体。

So here are two hormones that are classically thought of as female reproductive hormones.

这里有两种传统上被认为是女性生殖激素的激素。

This is what goes up and goes down during the estrous cycle, estrogen and progesterone, and yet they're playing a very important role in controlling aggression in male mice, and then presumably in male humans as well.

这就是雌激素和黄体酮在发情周期中上升和下降的原因，但它们在控制雄性小鼠的攻击性方面发挥着非常重要的作用，想必在男性人类中也是如此。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Fascinating.

令人着迷。

So estrogen is doing many more things than I think most people believe.

所以雌激素的作用比我认为大多数人相信的要多得多。

Dr. David Anderson:

大卫·安德森博士：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And testosterone is doing maybe different and fewer things in some cases, and more in others.

睾丸激素的作用可能有所不同，在某些情况下作用较少，而在其他情况下作用较多。

I've known some aggressive females over the time I've been alive.

我一生中就认识一些好斗的女性。

What's involved in female aggression that's unique from the pathways that generate male aggression?

女性攻击性的产生途径与男性攻击性的产生途径有何不同？

Dr. David Anderson:

大卫·安德森博士：

Great question.

很好的问题。

So we and other labs have studied this in both mice and also in fruit flies.

因此，我们和其他实验室在小鼠和果蝇中研究了这一点。

So one thing in mice that distinguishes aggression in females from males is that male mice are pretty much ready to fight at the drop of a hat.

因此，雌性小鼠与雄性小鼠的攻击性区别在于，雄性小鼠几乎随时准备好进行战斗。

Female mice only fight when they are nurturing and nursing their pups after they've delivered a litter.

雌性老鼠只有在产下幼崽后，在养育和护理幼崽时才会发生战斗。

And there is a window there where they become hyper-aggressive, and then after their pups are weaned, that aggressiveness goes away.

在一个窗口期里，它们会变得极具攻击性，然后在它们的幼崽断奶后，这种攻击性就会消失。

So this is pretty remarkable that you take a virgin female mouse and expose it to a male, and her response is to become sexually receptive and to mate with him.

所以这是非常值得注意的，你把一只处女雌性老鼠暴露给一只雄性老鼠，她的反应是变得有性接受能力并与他交配。

And now you let her have her pups, and you put the same male or another male mouse in the cage with her, and instead of trying to mate with him, she attacks him.

现在你让她生下幼崽，然后把同一只雄性或另一只雄性老鼠和她一起关在笼子里，她没有试图与他交配，而是攻击他。

So there is some presumably hormonal and also neuronal switch that's occurring in the brain that switches the response of the female from sex to aggression when she goes from virginity to maternity.

因此，当女性从处女变成怀孕时，大脑中可能发生了一些荷尔蒙和神经元的转换，将女性的反应从性行为转变为攻击行为。

And we recently showed in a paper, this is work from one of my students, Mengyu Liu, that within VMH in females, there are two clearly divisible subsets of estrogen receptor neurons.

我们最近在一篇论文中表明，这是我的学生孟宇刘 (Mengyu Liu) 的工作，在女性的 VMH 中，有两个明显可分割的雌激素受体神经元子集。

And she showed that one of those subsets controls fighting and the other one controls mating.

她表明，其中一个子集控制战斗，另一个控制交配。

And in fact, if you stimulate the fighting-specific subset in a virgin, you can get the virgin to attack, which is something that we were never able to do before.

事实上，如果你刺激处女身上的战斗特有子集，你就可以让处女发起攻击，这是我们以前从未做过的事情。

And if you stimulate the mating one, you enhance mating.

如果你刺激交配者，你就会增强交配。

The reason we could never get these results when we stimulated the whole population of estrogen receptor neurons is that these effects are opposite, and they cancel out.

当我们刺激整个雌激素受体神经元群时，我们永远无法得到这些结果的原因是这些效应是相反的，并且它们相互抵消。

And so it turns out that if you measure the activity of the fighting and the mating neurons going from a virgin to a maternal female The aggression neurons are very low in their activity in the virgin, but once the female has pups, the activation ability of those neurons goes way up, and the mating neurons stay the same.

事实证明，如果你测量从处女到母性雌性的战斗和交配神经元的活动，处女中的攻击性神经元的活动非常低，但一旦雌性生下幼崽，这些神经元的激活能力就会大幅上升，并且交配神经元保持不变。

So if you think of the balance between them like a seesaw, in the virgin, there is more activity in the mating neurons than in the fighting neurons, whereas in the nursing mother, there's more activity or more activation in the other way around, the fighting neurons than the mating.

因此，如果你把它们之间的平衡想象成跷跷板，那么在处女体内，交配神经元的活动比战斗神经元的活动更多，而在哺乳期的母亲中，相反，战斗神经元的活动比交配的神经元更多。

Did I say fighting and mating the first-- Mating neurons dominate fighting in the virgin.

我是否说过首先是战斗和交配——交配神经元在处女体内主导着战斗。

Fighting neurons dominate mating in the mother.

战斗神经元主导着母亲的交配。

So that's a really cool observation, and it's not something that happens in males, and we don't know what causes that or controls that.

所以这是一个非常酷的观察结果，这不是发生在男性身上的事情，而且我们不知道是什么导致了这种情况或控制了这种情况。

Interestingly, this gets into the whole issue of neurons that are present in females but not in males.

有趣的是，这涉及到女性中存在但男性中不存在的神经元的整个问题。

So the field has known for a long time that male and female fruit flies have sex-specific neurons, and most of the neurons that we've identified in fruit flies that control fighting in males are male-specific.

因此，该领域很早就知道雄性和雌性果蝇具有性别特异性神经元，并且我们在果蝇中发现的控制雄性战斗的大多数神经元都是雄性特异性的。

They're not found in the female brain.

它们在女性大脑中没有发现。

But recently, we discovered a set of female-specific fighting neurons in the female brain, together with a couple of other laboratories.

但最近，我们与其他几个实验室一起在女性大脑中发现了一组女性特有的战斗神经元。

Now, they do share one common population of neurons in both male and female flies that in females activates the female-specific fighting neurons and in males activates the male-specific fighting neurons.

现在，它们在雄性和雌性果蝇中确实共享一种共同的神经元群，在雌性果蝇中激活雌性特异性的战斗神经元，在雄性中激活雄性特异性的战斗神经元。

So it's kind of a hierarchy with this common neuron on top.

所以这是一种层次结构，这个公共神经元位于顶部。

And in mice, we discovered that there are male-specific neurons in VMH, and those neurons are activated during male aggression.

在小鼠中，我们发现 VMH 中存在雄性特异性神经元，并且这些神经元在雄性攻击时被激活。

Now, the neurons that are active in females when females fight in VMH are not sex-specific.

现在，当雌性在 VMH 中战斗时，雌性体内活跃的神经元并不具有性别特异性。

So they are also found in males.

所以它们也存在于男性中。

So this is already showing you some complexity.

所以这已经向您展示了一些复杂性。

The male mouse VMH has both male-specific aggression neurons and generic aggression neurons.

雄性小鼠 VMH 具有雄性特异性攻击神经元和通用攻击神经元。

And then the female VMH, the mating cells, are only found in females.

然后，雌性 VMH（交配细胞）仅存在于雌性体内。

They are female-specific and not found in the male brain.

它们是女性特有的，在男性大脑中不存在。

And so we're trying to find out what these sex-specific populations of neurons are doing, but that indicates that that is some of the mechanism by which different sexes show different behaviors.

因此，我们试图找出这些特定性别的神经元群体正在做什么，但这表明这是不同性别表现出不同行为的一些机制。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I'm fixated on this transition from the virgin female mouse to the maternal female mouse, and I have a couple questions about whether or not, for instance, the transition is governed by the presence of pups.

我很关注从处女雌性小鼠到母性雌性小鼠的这种转变，并且我有几个问题，例如，这种转变是否受到幼崽的存在的控制。

So for instance, if you take a virgin female, she'll mate with a male.

举例来说，如果你养了一只未交配的雌性，她就会与雄性交配。

Once she's had pups, she'll try and fight that male or presumably another intruder female, right?

一旦她有了幼崽，她就会尝试与那只雄性或可能是另一只雌性入侵者战斗，对吗？

Dr. David Anderson:

大卫·安德森博士：

Yes.

是的。

Equally towards females and male intruders.

对女性和男性入侵者一视同仁。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Does that require the presence of her pups?

这需要她的小狗在场吗？

Meaning if you were to take those pups and give them to another mother, does she revert to the more virgin-like behavior?

这意味着如果你把这些小狗交给另一位母亲，她会恢复到更像处女的行为吗？

Is it triggered by lactation, or could it actually be triggered by the mating behavior itself?

它是由哺乳触发的，还是实际上是由交配行为本身触发的？

Because it's possible for the virgin to become a non-virgin, but not actually have a litter of pups.

因为处女有可能变成非处女，但实际上不会生出一窝幼崽。

Dr. David Anderson:

大卫·安德森博士：

Right.

对。

Those are all great questions, and we don't know the answer to most of them.

这些都是很好的问题，但我们不知道其中大多数问题的答案。

What I can say is that a nursing mother doesn't have to have her pups with her in the cage in order to attack an intruder male or an intruder female.

我能说的是，哺乳期的母亲不必将她的幼崽关在笼子里来攻击入侵的雄性或雌性入侵者。

She is just in a state of brain that makes her aggressive to any intruder, and those aggression neurons in that female's brain are activated by both male and female intruders equally, whereas in male mice, the aggression neurons are only ever activated by males, not by females, because males are never supposed to attack females.

她只是处于一种使她对任何入侵者具有攻击性的大脑状态，并且雌性大脑中的攻击性神经元被雄性和雌性入侵者同等地激活，而在雄性小鼠中，攻击性神经元只被雄性激活，而不是被雌性激活，因为雄性永远不应该攻击雌性。

They're only supposed to mate with them.

他们只应该与他们交配。

So that's another difference in how those neurons are tuned to signals from different conspecifics.

这是这些神经元如何适应来自不同同种动物的信号的另一个差异。

Does it require lactation?

需要哺乳吗？

I don't know the answer to that.

我不知道答案。

I think there are some experiments where people have tried to, classical experiments, people have tried to reproduce the changes in hormones that occur during pregnancy in female rats to see if it can make them aggressive, and some of those manipulations do to some extent, but there's a whole biology there that remains to be explored about how much of this is hormones, how much of this is circuitry and electricity, and how much of it is other factors that we haven't identified yet.

我认为人们已经尝试过一些实验，经典的实验，人们试图重现雌性老鼠怀孕期间发生的激素变化，看看它是否会让它们变得具有攻击性，其中一些操作在某种程度上起到了作用，但还有一个完整的生物学有待探索，其中有多少是激素，有多少是电路和电力，以及有多少是我们尚未确定的其他因素。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I don't want to anthropomorphize, but, well, I'll just ask the question.

我不想拟人化，但是，好吧，我只是问这个问题。

So the other day, I was watching ferrets mate.

前几天，我正在观察雪貂交配。

Right?

正确的？

They're mustelids, and their mating behavior, I guess I didn't say why I was watching this.

它们是鼬科动物，它们的交配行为，我想我没有说我为什么看这个。

Doesn't matter.

没关系。

It simply doesn't matter.

这根本不重要。

But if one observes the mating behaviors of different animals, we know that there's a tremendous range of mating behaviors in humans.

但如果观察不同动物的交配行为，我们就会知道人类的交配行为范围非常广泛。

There can be no aggressive component, there could be aggressive component.

不能有攻击性成分，也可以有攻击性成分。

Humans have all sorts of kinks and fetishes and behaviors, and most of which probably has never been documented because most of this happens in private.

人类有各种各样的怪癖、迷恋和行为，其中大部分可能从未被记录下来，因为大部分都是在私下发生的。

And here I always say on this podcast, anytime we're talking about sexual behavior in humans, we're always making the presumption that it's consensual, age-appropriate, context-appropriate, and species-appropriate.

我总是在这个播客上说，每当我们谈论人类的性行为时，我们总是假设它是自愿的、适合年龄的、适合环境的、适合物种的。

Let's say we're talking about a lot of different species.

假设我们正在谈论很多不同的物种。

With that said, just to set context, I was watching this video of ferrets mating, and it's quite violent, actually.

话虽如此，为了说明背景，我正在观看这段雪貂交配的视频，实际上它非常暴力。

There's a lot of neck biting, there's a lot of squealing.

有很多人咬脖子，有很多尖叫声。

If I were going to project and anthropomorphize, I'd say it's not really clear they both want to be there.

如果我要进行投射和拟人化，我会说目前还不清楚他们都想在那里。

One would make that assumption, and of course, we don't know.

有人会做出这样的假设，当然，我们不知道。

We have no idea.

我们不知道。

This could be the ritual.

这可能就是仪式。

It seems to me that there is some crossover of aggression and mating behavior circuitry during the act of mating.

在我看来，在交配过程中，攻击行为和交配行为回路之间存在一些交叉。

And do you think that reflects this sort of stew of competing neurons that are prioritizing in real time?

你认为这是否反映了这种实时优先排序的竞争性神经元的混合？

Because, of course, as states, they have persistence, as you point out, and you can imagine that states overlapping, four different states, the motivational drive to mate, the motivational drive to get away from this experience, the motivational drive to eat at some point, to defecate at some point, all of these things are competing, and what we're really seeing is a bias in probabilities.

因为，当然，作为状态，它们有持久性，正如你所指出的，你可以想象状态重叠，四种不同的状态，交配的动机驱动，摆脱这种经历的动机驱动，在某个时候吃饭的动机驱动，在某个时候排便的动机驱动，所有这些东西都是相互竞争的，我们真正看到的是概率上的偏差。

But when you look at mating behavior of various animals, you see an aggressive component sometimes, but not always.

但是当你观察各种动物的交配行为时，你有时会看到攻击性的成分，但并非总是如此。

Is it species specific?

它有特定的物种吗？

Is it context specific?

它是特定于上下文的吗？

And more generally, do you think that there is crosstalk between these different neuronal populations and the animal itself might be kind of confused about what's going on?

更一般地说，您是否认为这些不同的神经元群体之间存在串扰，并且动物本身可能对正在发生的事情感到困惑？

Dr. David Anderson:

大卫·安德森博士：

Right.

对。

Great questions.

很好的问题。

I can't really speak to the issue of whether this is species specific because I'm not a naturalist or a zoologist.

我无法真正谈论这是否是物种特异性的问题，因为我不是博物学家或动物学家。

I've seen like you have in the wild, for example, lions when they mate.

我见过像你在野外看到的那样，例如狮子交配时的情况。

I've seen them in Africa.

我在非洲见过他们。

There's often a biting component of that as well.

通常也有令人痛苦的成分。

One of the things that surprised us when we identified neurons in VMHvl that control aggression in males is that within that population, there is a subset of neurons that is activated by females during male-female mating encounters.

当我们发现 VMHvl 中控制雄性攻击性的神经元时，令我们惊讶的一件事是，在该群体中，有一个神经元子集在雌雄交配过程中被雌性激活。

Now, you don't generally think of mouse sex as rough sex, but there is a lot of what superficially looks like violent behavior sometimes, especially if the female rejects the male and runs away.

现在，你通常不会认为老鼠的性行为是粗暴的性行为，但有时有很多表面上看起来像是暴力的行为，特别是当雌性拒绝雄性并逃跑时。

And there's some evidence that those female selective neurons in VMH are part of the mating behavior.

有证据表明 VMH 中的雌性选择性神经元是交配行为的一部分。

If you shut them down, the animals don't mate as effectively as they otherwise would.

如果你关闭它们，动物的交配效率就会降低。

What happens when you stimulate them, we don't yet know because we don't have a way to specifically do that without activating the male aggression neurons.

当你刺激它们时会发生什么，我们还不知道，因为我们没有办法在不激活雄性攻击神经元的情况下专门做到这一点。

But I think they must be there for a reason, because VMH is not traditionally the brain region to which male sexual behavior has been assigned.

但我认为它们的存在一定是有原因的，因为 VMH 传统上并不是负责男性性行为的大脑区域。

That's another area called the medial preoptic area.

这是另一个称为内侧视前区的区域。

And there we have shown that there are neurons that definitely stimulate mating behavior.

我们已经证明，存在肯定会刺激交配行为的神经元。

In fact, if we activate those mating neurons in a male while it's in the middle of attacking another male, it will stop fighting, start singing to that male, and start to try to mount that male until we shut those neurons off.

事实上，如果我们在雄性攻击另一只雄性的过程中激活它们的交配神经元，它就会停止战斗，开始向那只雄性唱歌，并开始尝试骑乘那只雄性，直到我们关闭这些神经元。

So those are the make love, not war neurons, and VMH are the make war, not love neurons.

所以这些是做爱神经元，而不是战争神经元，VMH 是制造战争神经元，而不是爱情神经元。

And there are dense interconnections between these two nuclei, which are very close to each other in the brain.

这两个核之间存在着密集的互连，它们在大脑中彼此非常接近。

And we've shown that some of those connections are mutually inhibitory to prevent the animal from attacking a mate that it's supposed to be mating with, or to prevent it from mating with an animal it's supposed to be attacking.

我们已经证明，其中一些连接是相互抑制的，以防止动物攻击它应该与之交配的配偶，或者阻止它与它应该攻击的动物交配。

But it's also possible that there are some cooperative interactions between those structures, as well as antagonistic interactions, and the balance of whether it's the cooperative or antagonistic interactions that are firing at any given moment in a mating encounter, as you suggest, may determine whether a moment of coital bliss among two lions may suddenly turn into a snap or a growl and a baring of fangs.

但也有可能这些结构之间存在一些合作性相互作用，以及对抗性相互作用，并且正如您所建议的，在交配过程中的任何特定时刻触发的合作性相互作用还是对抗性相互作用的平衡，可能会决定两只狮子之间的性交幸福时刻是否会突然变成突然的响声或咆哮和露出尖牙。

We don't know that, but certainly the substrate, the wiring is there for that to happen.

我们不知道这一点，但可以肯定的是，基板和布线是为了实现这一点。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I'm sure people's minds are running wild with all this.

我确信人们的头脑因这一切而疯狂。

I'll just use this as an opportunity to raise something I've wondered about for far too long, which is, I have a friend who's a psychiatrist who works on the treatment of fetishes.

我只是想借此机会提出一些我长期以来一直想知道的事情，那就是，我有一个朋友，他是一位致力于治疗恋物癖的精神科医生。

This is not a psychiatrist that I was treated by.

这不是我接受治疗的精神科医生。

I'll just point that out.

我只想指出这一点。

But they mentioned something very interesting to me long ago, which is that when you look at true fetishes, and what meets the criteria for fetish, that there does seem to be some what one would think would be competing circuitry that suddenly becomes aligned.

但他们很久以前就提到了一些对我来说非常有趣的事情，那就是，当你观察真正的恋物癖以及符合恋物癖标准的东西时，似乎确实存在一些人们认为是竞争的电路突然变得一致。

For instance, avoidance of feces, dead bodies, feet, things that are very infectious.

例如，避免粪便、尸体、脚等传染性很强的东西。

Typically, those states of disgust are antagonistic to states of desire, as one would hope is present during sexual behavior.

通常，这些厌恶状态与欲望状态是对立的，正如人们希望在性行为中出现的那样。

Fetishes often involve exactly those things that are aversive, feet, dead bodies, disgusting things to most people.

恋物癖通常涉及那些令人厌恶的东西，比如脚、尸体，以及对大多数人来说令人厌恶的东西。

And true fetishes in the pathologic sense exist when people have basically a requirement for thinking about or even the presence of those ordinarily disgusting things in order to become sexually aroused.

当人们基本上需要思考甚至存在那些通常令人厌恶的事物才能获得性唤起时，就存在病理意义上的真正恋物癖。

As if the circuitry has crossed over, and the statement that rung in my mind was, people don't develop fetishes to mailboxes or to the color red or to random objects and things.

就好像电路已经交叉了，我脑海中响起的一句话是，人们不会对邮箱、红色或随机的物体产生迷恋。

They develop fetishes to things that are highly infectious and counter reproductive appetitive states.

他们对具有高度传染性和反生殖欲望状态的事物产生了迷恋。

So I find that interesting.

所以我觉得这很有趣。

I don't know if you have any reflections on that as to why that might be.

我不知道您是否对此有任何思考，为什么会这样。

I'm tempted to ask whether or not you've ever observed fetish-like behavior in mice, but I find it fascinating that you have this area of the brain that's so highly conserved, the hypothalamus, in which you have these dense populations intermixed, and that The addition of a forebrain, especially in humans, that can think and make decisions could, in some ways, facilitate the expression of these primitive behaviors, but could also complicate the expression of primitive behaviors.

我很想问你是否观察过老鼠的类似恋物癖的行为，但我发现令人着迷的是，你的大脑中有一个高度保守的区域，即下丘脑，其中有这些密集的群体混合在一起，并且前脑的增加，特别是在人类中，可以思考和做出决定，可以在某些方面促进这些原始行为的表达，但也可能使原始行为的表达复杂化。

Dr. David Anderson:

大卫·安德森博士：

Right.

对。

I would agree.

我同意。

I think one way of looking at fetishes from a neurobiological standpoint is that they represent a kind of appetitive conditioning where something that is natively aversive or disgusting by being repeatedly paired with a rewarding experience changes its valence, its sign, so that now it somehow produces the anticipation of reward the next time a person sees it.

我认为从神经生物学的角度看待恋物癖的一种方法是，它们代表了一种食欲条件反射，即某些本来令人厌恶或厌恶的东西通过反复与奖励性经历配对而改变了它的效价和符号，因此现在它以某种方式产生了人们下次看到它时对奖励的预期。

Now, I don't know that literature in animals, so I don't know if you could condition a mouse to eat feces, for example, although there are animals that are naturally coprophagic.

现在，我不知道有关动物的文献，所以我不知道是否可以让老鼠吃粪便，例如，尽管有些动物天生食粪。

And maybe mice do that occasionally, I'm not sure.

也许老鼠偶尔会这样做，我不确定。

But that is one way to think about it, and that could certainly involve, in humans, the more recently evolved parts of the brain, the cortex, that is sort of orchestrating both what behaviors are happening and whether reward states are turning on in association with those behaviors that are happening.

但这是思考这个问题的一种方式，这肯定涉及人类大脑中最近进化的部分——皮质，它在某种程度上协调正在发生的行为以及奖励状态是否与正在发生的行为相关联。

And that's the part that I think is difficult and challenging to study in a mouse, but certainly bears thinking about because it's a really interesting, again, sort of counterintuitive aspect, again, like rough sex, people that want to have fighting or violence or aggressiveness in order to be sexually aroused, and fetishes.

我认为这部分在老鼠身上进行研究是困难和具有挑战性的，但肯定值得思考，因为它是一个非常有趣的方面，再次，有点违反直觉的方面，再次，像粗暴的性行为，人们为了获得性唤起而想要打架、暴力或攻击性，以及恋物癖。

And in fact, when we made that discovery initially, it raised the question in my mind whether some people that are serial rapists, for example, and engage in sexual violence might, in some level, have their wires crossed in some way, that these states that are supposed to be pretty much separated and mutually antagonistic are not and are actually more rewarding and reinforcing.

事实上，当我们最初发现这一发现时，我脑海中提出了一个问题，例如，一些连环强奸犯并从事性暴力的人是否可能在某种程度上以某种方式交叉了他们的界限，这些本应几乎分离和相互对立的状态实际上并非如此，而且实际上更具回报和强化。

I think it's going to be a long time before we have figured it out.

我认为我们需要很长时间才能弄清楚。

But when you think about it, there is no treatment that we have for a violent sexual offender that eliminates the violence but not the sexual desire and sexual urge.

但仔细想想，我们对暴力性犯罪者没有任何治疗方法可以消除暴力，但不能消除性欲和性冲动。

Whether it's physical castration or chemical castration, it eliminates both.

无论是物理阉割还是化学阉割，都消除了两者。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Definitely an area that I think, well, human neuroscience in general needs a lot of tools, right, in terms of how to probe and manipulate neural circuitry.

我认为，人类神经科学总体上需要很多工具，在如何探测和操纵神经回路方面，这绝对是一个领域。

I'd love to turn to this area that you mentioned, the medial preoptic area.

我很想谈谈你提到的这个区域，即内侧视前区。

I'm fascinated by it because just as within the VMH, you have these neurons for mating and fighting or aggression, my understanding is medial preoptic area contains neurons for mating, but also for temperature regulation.

我对此很着迷，因为就像在 VMH 内一样，这些神经元用于交配、战斗或攻击，我的理解是内侧视前区包含用于交配的神经元，但也用于温度调节。

And perhaps I'm making too much of a leap here, but I've always wondered about this phrase "in heat".

也许我在这里迈出了太大的一步，但我一直对“热度”这个词感到好奇。

As certainly the menstrual or estrous cycle in females is related to changes in body temperature.

当然，女性的月经或发情周期与体温的变化有关。

In fact, measuring body temperature is one way that women can fairly reliably predict ovulation, et cetera.

事实上，测量体温是女性可以相当可靠地预测排卵等的一种方法。

Although, this is not a show about contraception, please rely on multiple methods as necessary.

虽然这不是一个关于避孕的节目，但请根据需要使用多种方法。

Don't use this discussion as your guide for contraception based on temperature.

不要将此讨论用作基于温度的避孕指南。

But if you stimulate certain neurons in the medial preoptic area, you can trigger dramatic changes in body temperature and/or mating behavior.

但如果刺激内侧视前区的某些神经元，就会引发体温和/或交配行为的巨大变化。

What's the relationship, if any, between temperature and mating, or do we simply not know?

温度和交配之间有什么关系（如果有的话），或者我们根本不知道？

Dr. David Anderson:

大卫·安德森博士：

I don't know what the relationship is between temperature and mating neurons in the preoptic area.

我不知道温度和视前区交配神经元之间有什么关系。

I suspect that they are different populations of neurons because it's become pretty clear that the preoptic area has many different subsets of neurons that are specifically active during different behaviors, even different phases of mating behavior.

我怀疑它们是不同的神经元群体，因为很明显，视前区有许多不同的神经元子集，它们在不同的行为，甚至交配行为的不同阶段特别活跃。

So there are mounting neurons, there are intromission, thrusting neurons, and ejaculation neurons, and sniffing neurons.

因此，有安装神经元，有插入、推力神经元、射精神经元和嗅探神经元。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Wait, so I think I've heard this before, but I just want to make sure that people get this, and I want to make sure I get this.

等等，我想我以前听过这个，但我只是想确保人们明白这一点，我想确保我明白这一点。

So you're telling me within medial preoptic area, there are specific neurons that if you stimulate them, will make males thrust as if they're mating?

所以你是在告诉我，在内侧视前区，有特定的神经元，如果你刺激它们，会让雄性产生推力，就好像它们正在交配一样？

Dr. David Anderson:

大卫·安德森博士：

No. So, this is not based on stimulation experiments.

不。所以，这不是基于刺激实验。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm.

嗯。

Dr. David Anderson:

大卫·安德森博士：

It's based on imaging-

它基于成像——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I see

我明白了

Dr. David Anderson:

大卫·安德森博士：

...

...

experiments right now.

现在就进行实验。

That we see when we look in the preoptic area at what neurons are active during different phases of aggression, we see that there are different neurons that are active during sniffing, mounting, thrusting, and ejaculation.

当我们在视前区观察哪些神经元在攻击的不同阶段活跃时，我们看到在嗅探、安装、推力和射精期间有不同的神经元活跃。

And they become repeatedly activated each time the animal goes through that cycle.

每当动物经历这个循环时，它们就会被反复激活。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

During mating.

交配时。

Dr. David Anderson:

大卫·安德森博士：

During the mating cycle.

在交配周期期间。

There are also some neurons there that are active during aggression, which are distinct, and we don't know whether those neurons are there to promote aggression or to inhibit mating when animals are fighting.

那里还有一些神经元在攻击过程中活跃，这是独特的，我们不知道这些神经元是在动物打斗时促进攻击性还是抑制交配。

We have some evidence that suggests it may be the latter, but we don't know for sure yet.

我们有一些证据表明可能是后者，但我们还不能确定。

The thermosensitive neurons are really interesting because you mentioned the phrase "in heat," and then in the context of aggression, you talk about hot-blooded people or hotheads.

热敏神经元真的很有趣，因为你提到了“发情”这个短语，然后在攻击性的背景下，你谈论的是热血的人或性急的人。

There's just recently a paper showing there are thermoregulatory neurons in VMH as well.

最近有一篇论文表明 VMH 中也存在温度调节神经元。

So all of these homeostatic systems for metabolic control and temperature control are intermingled in these nuclei, these zones that control these basic survival behaviors like mating and aggression and predator defense.

因此，所有这些用于代谢控制和温度控制的稳态系统都混合在这些细胞核中，这些区域控制着交配、攻击和捕食者防御等基本生存行为。

And I would imagine that the thermoregulation is tightly connected to energy expenditure, and that, again, these neurons are mixed together to facilitate integration of all these signals by the brain in some way that we don't understand to maintain the proper balance between energy conservation and energy consumption during this particular behavior or that behavior.

我想，体温调节与能量消耗密切相关，并且这些神经元再次混合在一起，以促进大脑以某种我们不理解的方式整合所有这些信号，以在这种特定行为或那种行为期间保持能量守恒和能量消耗之间的适当平衡。

I've always been fascinated by the question, why is it that violence goes up in the summertime when the temperatures are high?

我一直对这个问题很着迷，为什么在气温高的夏季暴力事件会增多？

Does it really have something to do with the idea that increased temperature increases violence?

这真的与温度升高会增加暴力的观点有关吗？

It seems hard to believe because we're homeothermic and we pretty much stay around 98.6 Fahrenheit.

这似乎令人难以置信，因为我们是恒温动物，温度几乎保持在 98.6 华氏度左右。

Could be other social reasons why that happens.

可能还有其他社会原因导致这种情况发生。

People are outside out on the street bumping into each other.

人们在外面的街上互相碰撞。

But, I think there could well be something that ties thermoregulation to aggressiveness as well as to mating behavior.

但是，我认为很可能存在某种东西将体温调节与攻击性以及交配行为联系起来。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Fascinating.

令人着迷。

Yeah.

是的。

I asked in the hopes that maybe in the years to come, your lab will parse some of the temperature relationships.

我问，希望也许在未来的几年里，你们的实验室能够解析一些温度关系。

And I realize it could be also regulated by hormones in general, so it's tapping into two systems for completely different reasons.

我意识到它通常也可以受到激素的调节，因此它出于完全不同的原因而利用了两个系统。

But, anyway, an area that intrigued me because of this notion of hot-headedness-

但无论如何，有一个领域因为头脑发热的概念而引起了我的兴趣——

Dr. David Anderson:

大卫·安德森博士：

Right

右

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

or cool, calm, and collected, and also the fact that, I probably should have asked about this earlier, that arousal itself is tethered to the whole mating and reproductive process.

或冷静、平静、镇定，还有一个事实是，我可能应该早点问这个问题，性唤起本身与整个交配和繁殖过程息息相关。

Without a sort of seesawing back between the sympathetic and parasympathetic arousal, relaxed states, there is no mating that will take place.

如果没有交感神经和副交感神经的唤醒、放松状态之间的拉锯，就不会发生交配。

So it's fascinating the way these different competing forces and seesaws operate.

因此，这些不同的竞争力量和跷跷板的运作方式令人着迷。

Several times during the discussion so far, we've hit on this idea that the same behavior can reflect different states, and different states can converge on multiple behaviors as well.

到目前为止，在讨论过程中，我们多次想到了这样的想法：相同的行为可以反映不同的状态，并且不同的状态也可以收敛于多种行为。

You had a paper not long ago about mounting behavior, which I found fascinating.

不久前你发表了一篇关于攀爬行为的论文，我觉得这篇论文很有趣。

Maybe you could tell us about that result, because to me it really speaks to the fact that mounting behavior can, in one context, be sexual, and in another context, actually be related to, we presume, dominance.

也许你可以告诉我们这个结果，因为对我来说，它确实说明了这样一个事实：在一种情况下，增加的行为可能与性有关，而在另一种情况下，我们认为实际上与统治有关。

And I think that my friends who practice jujitsu, when I talk about that result, they say, "Of course, mounting the other person and dominating them, there's nothing sexual about it.

我认为练习柔术的朋友们，当我谈论这个结果时，他们会说，“当然，骑在对方身上并支配他们，这与性无关。

It's about overtaking them physically, literally being on their next side as opposed to lying on their own back."

这是关于在身体上超越他们，真正地站在他们的旁边，而不是躺在他们自己的背上。”

Dr. David Anderson:

大卫·安德森博士：

Hmm.

嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Just fascinating, very primitive, and yet, I think speaks to this idea that mounting behavior might be one of the most fundamental ways in which animals and perhaps even humans express dominance and/or sexual interactions.

非常令人着迷，非常原始，然而，我认为这说明了这个想法，即攀爬行为可能是动物甚至人类表达统治地位和/或性互动的最基本方式之一。

Dr. David Anderson:

大卫·安德森博士：

Yep.

是的。

That's a fascinating question, and it was harder to figure out than you might have thought.

这是一个令人着迷的问题，而且比你想象的更难弄清楚。

So there's been this debate for a long time in the field when you see two male mice mounting each other, is this homosexual behavior?

因此，当你看到两只雄性老鼠互相骑乘时，这个领域长期以来一直存在这样的争论，这是同性恋行为吗？

Is this a case of mistaken sexual identification, or is this dominance behavior?

这是性别认同错误，还是支配行为？

And if you train an AI algorithm to try to distinguish male-male mounting from male-female mounting, it does not do a very good job because motorically, those behaviors look so similar.

如果你训练一个人工智能算法来尝试区分男性-男性安装和男性-女性安装，它的效果并不好，因为从运动角度来看，这些行为看起来非常相似。

And so, how did we wind up figuring out that most male-male mounting is dominance mounting?

那么，我们是如何最终发现大多数男性对男性的骑乘都是支配性的骑乘呢？

There are two important clues.

有两个重要线索。

One is the context.

一是上下文。

And so male-male mounting tends to be more prominent among mice when they haven't had a lot of fighting experience, and then as they become more experienced in fighting, they will show relatively less mounting towards the other male and more attack, and they'll transition quickly from mounting to attack.

因此，当老鼠没有太多的战斗经验时，雄性对雄性的骑乘往往会更加突出，然后当它们在战斗中变得更加有经验时，它们对另一只雄性的骑乘会相对较少，而会表现出更多的攻击，并且它们会很快从骑乘过渡到攻击。

And so the mounting is always seen in this context of an overall aggressive interaction.

因此，这种安装总是在整体侵略性互动的背景下出现。

And then the second thing, which believe it or not, was suggested by a computational theoretical person in my lab, Anne Kennedy, who now has her own lab at Northwestern, she said, "Well, males are known to sing when they mount females, ultrasonic vocalizations.

然后第二件事，不管你信不信，是我实验室的一位计算理论人员安妮·肯尼迪提出的，她现在在西北大学拥有自己的实验室，她说，“嗯，众所周知，雄性在骑上雌性时会唱歌，超声波发声。

Why don't you see what kinds of songs they're singing when they're mounting males?

你为什么不看看它们骑上雄性时唱的是什么样的歌曲？

Maybe it's a different kind of song." Well, what we found out is they don't sing at all when they're mounting a male.

也许这是一首不同类型的歌曲。”嗯，我们发现它们在骑上雄性时根本不唱歌。

So you can easily distinguish whether mounting behavior by a male mouse is reproductive or agonistic, aggressive, according to whether it's accompanied by ultrasonic vocalizations or not.

因此，您可以根据雄性小鼠是否伴有超声波发声，轻松区分雄性小鼠的攀爬行为是繁殖性的还是竞争性的、攻击性的。

And it turns out that different brain regions are maximally active during these different types of mounting.

事实证明，在这些不同类型的安装过程中，不同的大脑区域最活跃。

So VMH, the aggression locus, is actually active during dominance mounting, and you can stimulate mounting if you Dominance mounting if you weakly activate VMH, whereas MPOA is most strongly activated during sexual mounting, and that's always accompanied by the ultrasonic vocalization.

因此，VMH（攻击性位点）实际上在优势安装过程中很活跃，如果您微弱地激活 VMH，则可以刺激安装，而 MPOA 在性安装过程中被最强烈地激活，并且总是伴随着超声波发声。

So this shows how difficult and dangerous it can be to try to infer an animal's state or intent or emotion from the behavior that it's exhibiting, because the same behavior can mean very different things depending on the context of the interaction with the animal.

因此，这表明尝试从动物表现出的行为推断动物的状态、意图或情绪是多么困难和危险，因为根据与动物互动的背景，相同的行为可能意味着非常不同的事情。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And I would say even more so with when that animal is a human or is multiple humans.

当该动物是人类或多个人类时，我想说的更是如此。

Dr. David Anderson:

大卫·安德森博士：

That's right.

没错。

And there are many examples.

还有很多例子。

Animals show chasing to obtain food, a prey animal that they're going to kill and eat, and they show chasing to obtain a mate that they're going to have sex with.

动物表现出追逐是为了获取食物，即它们要杀死并吃掉的猎物，它们表现出追逐是为了获得它们要与之发生性关系的伴侣。

And so the intent of the chasing is completely different, and we don't know in all these cases whether there are separate circuits or common circuits that are being activated.

因此，追逐的目的是完全不同的，我们不知道在所有这些情况下，是否有单独的电路或公共电路被激活。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I'm obsessed with dogs and dog breeds and et cetera.

我对狗和狗品种等很着迷。

And one thing I can tell you is that female dogs will mount and thrust.

我可以告诉你的一件事是，母狗会攀爬和猛冲。

We had a female pit bull mix, a very sweet dog, but in observing her, it convinced me that one can never assume that male dogs are more aggressive than female dogs.

我们有一只雌性斗牛犬混种，一只非常可爱的狗，但通过观察她，我确信人们永远不能认为雄性狗比雌性狗更具攻击性。

It turns out, in talking to people who are quite skilled at dog genetics and dog breeding, that there's a dominance hierarchy within a litter, and it crosses over male/female delineations.

事实证明，在与精通狗遗传学和狗育种的人交谈时，发现一窝狗中存在着统治等级，并且它跨越了雄性/雌性的划分。

So you can get a female in the litter that's very dominant, a male that's very subordinate, and no one really knows what relates to.

因此，你可能会在一窝孩子中得到一只非常占主导地位的雌性，一只非常从属的雄性，没有人真正知道这两者之间的关系。

This is also why little dogs sometimes will get right up in the face of a big Doberman Pinscher and just start barking, which is an idiotic thing for it to do, but they can be dominant over a much larger dog.

这也是为什么小狗有时会在大杜宾犬面前站起来并开始吠叫，这对它来说是一件愚蠢的事情，但它们可以比一只大得多的狗占主导地位。

Very strange, to me anyway.

无论如何，对我来说很奇怪。

Female/female mounting, do you observe it in mice?

雌性/雌性安装，您在小鼠身上观察到吗？

Are there known circuits?

有已知的电路吗？

And what evokes female/female mounting or female-to-male mounting if it occurs?

如果发生的话，什么会引起女性/女性安装或女性对男性安装？

Dr. David Anderson:

大卫·安德森博士：

Good.

很好。

Yes, there are clear examples of females displaying male-type mounting behavior towards other females.

是的，有明显的例子表明雌性对其他雌性表现出雄性型的骑乘行为。

We see this most commonly in the lab, where we are housing females with their sisters, say, three or four in a cage.

我们在实验室中最常看到这种情况，我们将雌性和她们的姐妹关在一个笼子里，比如三到四个。

We take one out, and we have her mate with a male, where the male's doing the mounting.

我们取出一只，让她与一只雄性交配，雄性正在做安装工作。

Now we take that female, and we put her back in the cage with her litter mates, and she starts mounting them.

现在我们把那只雌性带回笼子里，和她的同窝同伴一起放回笼子里，然后她开始骑上它们。

Now, what the function of that is, if it has any function, or what it means, what's driving it, we don't know.

现在，它的功能是什么，它是否有任何功能，或者它意味着什么，是什么驱动它，我们不知道。

But we do know that if we stimulate the neurons that control mounting in males in the medial preoptic area, if we stimulate that same population in females, it evokes male-type mounting towards either a male or a female target.

但我们确实知道，如果我们刺激男性内侧视前区控制安装的神经元，如果我们刺激女性中相同的神经元，它会引起针对男性或女性目标的男性型安装。

In fact, we have a movie where we have a female that has just been mounted by a male.

事实上，我们有一部电影，其中有一个女性刚刚被男性骑上。

So the male's on top, and she's underneath, and we stimulate that region of MPOA in the female, and she crawls out from underneath the male who has just mounted her, circles around behind him, and climbs up on top of him and starts to try to mount him and thrust at him.

所以雄性在上面，而她在下面，我们刺激雌性体内的 MPOA 区域，她从刚刚骑上她的雄性下面爬出来，在他身后绕圈，然后爬到他身上，开始尝试骑上他并刺向他。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

That has a name online.

网上有这个名字。

It's called a switch.

这就是所谓的开关。

Dr. David Anderson:

大卫·安德森博士：

Is that right?

是这样吗？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Don't ask me how I know that.

别问我怎么知道的。

Dr. David Anderson:

大卫·安德森博士：

Okay.

好的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But it's a term that you hear.

但这是你听到的一个术语。

You also hear the term topping from the bottom, which it sounds like that is a literal topping from the bottom.

您还会听到“从底部顶部”一词，听起来像是从字面意义上的从底部顶部。

Dr. David Anderson:

大卫·安德森博士：

I see.

我明白了。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

That's more of a psychological phrase from what I hear.

据我所知，这更像是一个心理学短语。

I have friends that are educating me in this language, mostly because I find this kind of neurobiological discussion fascinating, and at some point, I attempt in my mind to superimpose observations from the online communities-

我有朋友用这种语言教育我，主要是因为我发现这种神经生物学讨论很有趣，在某些时候，我试图在脑海中叠加来自在线社区的观察结果——

Dr. David Anderson:

大卫·安德森博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

that I'm told about and asked about to this.

我被告知并被问到了这一点。

But I should point out, it's always dangerous, and in fact, inappropriate to make a one-to-one link.

但我应该指出，建立一对一的链接总是很危险的，而且事实上是不合适的。

Dr. David Anderson:

大卫·安德森博士：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Humans maintain all the same neural circuitry and pathways that we're talking about today in mice, but that forebrain does allow for context, et cetera.

人类维持着我们今天在小鼠身上讨论的所有相同的神经回路和通路，但前脑确实允许上下文等等。

Dr. David Anderson:

大卫·安德森博士：

Yep.

是的。

So what the function is of female mounting, I don't know.

那么母座的作用是什么，我不知道。

It could be a type of dominance display.

这可能是一种统治地位的展示。

It's hard to measure that because people haven't worked on female dominance hierarchies to the same extent that they've worked on male dominance hierarchies, but it indicates that the circuits for male-type mounting are there in females, as early work from Catherine Dulac suggested some years ago.

很难衡量这一点，因为人们对女性统治等级的研究程度不如对男性统治等级的研究，但这表明女性身上存在男性型安装的回路，正如凯瑟琳·杜拉克几年前的早期研究所表明的那样。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Fascinating.

令人着迷。

I love that paper because as you pointed out for chase, for mounting behavior, we see it and we think one thing specifically.

我喜欢那篇论文，因为正如你所指出的，对于追逐、不断增加的行为，我们看到了它，并且我们特别思考了一件事。

And after hearing this result, actually, I'm not a big fan of fight sports.

听到这个结果后，实际上，我并不是格斗运动的忠实粉丝。

I watch them occasionally because friends are into them, but I've seen boxing matches, MMA matches, where at the end of a round, if someone felt that they dominated, they will do the unsportsmanlike thing of thrusting on the back of the other person-

我偶尔会看他们，因为朋友们很喜欢，但我也看过拳击比赛、综合格斗比赛，在一轮比赛结束时，如果有人觉得自己占了主导地位，他们就会做出不符合体育道德的事情，推到对方的背上——

Dr. David Anderson:

大卫·安德森博士：

Really?

真的吗？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

before they get off, almost like a, "I dominated you," so mimicking sexual-like behavior, but there's no reason to think that it's sexual.

在他们下车之前，几乎就像是“我统治了你”，如此模仿性行为，但没有理由认为这是性行为。

But they're sending a message of dominance is what it implies.

但正如其所暗示的那样，他们正在发出一种统治的信息。

I'd love to talk about something slightly off from this circuitry, but I think that's related to the circuitry at least in some way, which is this structure that I've always been fascinated by, and I can't figure out what the hell it's for, because it seems to be involved in everything, which is the PAG, the periaqueductal gray, which is a little bit further back in the brain for people that don't know.

我很想谈论一些与这个电路稍有不同的东西，但我认为这至少在某种程度上与电路有关，这是我一直着迷的结构，我无法弄清楚它到底是做什么用的，因为它似乎与一切都有关，这就是 PAG，导水管周围灰质，对于不知道的人来说，它位于大脑的更靠后的位置。

It's been studied in the context of pain, it's been studied in the context of the so-called lordosis response, the receptivity or arching of the back of the female to receive intromission and mating from the male.

它是在疼痛的背景下进行研究的，它是在所谓的脊柱前凸反应的背景下进行研究的，即雌性背部接受雄性插入和交配的接受性或拱形性。

How should we think about PAG?

我们应该如何看待PAG？

Clearly it can't be involved in everything.

显然它不可能参与所有事情。

I'm guessing it's at least as complex as some of these other regions that we've been talking about, different types of neurons controlling different things.

我猜它至少和我们一直在讨论的其他一些区域一样复杂，不同类型的神经元控制着不同的事物。

But how does PAG play into this?

但 PAG 是如何发挥作用的呢？

In particular, I want to know, is there some mechanism of pain modulation and control during fighting and/or mating?

特别是，我想知道，在战斗和/或交配过程中是否存在某种疼痛调节和控制机制？

And the reason I ask is that while I'm not a combat sports person, years ago, I did a little bit of martial arts, and it always was impressive to me how little it hurt to get punched during a fight and how much it hurt afterwards.

我问这个问题的原因是，虽然我不是一名格斗运动爱好者，但几年前，我学过一点武术，我总是印象深刻的是，在打架时被拳打到很痛，而打架后又很痛。

So there clearly is some endogenous pain control-

所以显然存在一些内源性疼痛控制——

Dr. David Anderson:

大卫·安德森博士：

Yep

是的

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

that then wears off, and then you feel beat up.

然后这种感觉就会消失，然后你就会感到被打败了。

Dr. David Anderson:

大卫·安德森博士：

Yep.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

At least in my case, I felt beat up.

至少就我而言，我感到被殴打。

What's PAG doing vis-à-vis pain, and what's pain doing vis-à-vis these other behaviors?

PAG 对疼痛有何作用？疼痛对这些其他行为有何作用？

Dr. David Anderson:

大卫·安德森博士：

Good.

很好。

So I think of PAG like an old-fashioned telephone switchboard, where there are calls coming in, and then the cables have to be punched into the right hole to get the information to be routed to the right recipient on the other end of it.

所以我认为 PAG 就像一个老式的电话总机，有电话打进来，然后必须将电缆打入正确的孔中，以将信息路由到另一端的正确接收者。

Because pretty much every type of innate behavior you can think of has had the PAG implicated.

因为几乎所有你能想到的先天行为都与 PAG 有关。

And there's a whole literature showing the involvement of the PAG in fear, different regions of the PAG.

有大量文献表明 PAG 的不同区域都参与了恐惧。

The dorsal PAG is involved in panic-like behavior, running away.

背侧 PAG 参与类似恐慌的行为，即逃跑。

The ventral PAG is involved in freezing behavior.

腹侧 PAG 参与冻结行为。

Both the MPOA and VMH send projections to the PAG, to different regions of the PAG.

MPOA 和 VMH 都将投影发送到 PAG、PAG 的不同区域。

So in cross-section, I hate to say this, but in cross-section, the PAG kind of looks like the water in a toilet when you're standing over an open toilet bowl.

所以在横截面中，我不想这么说，但在横截面中，PAG 看起来就像你站在打开的马桶上时马桶中的水。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. David Anderson:

大卫·安德森博士：

And if you imagine a clock face projected onto that, it's like the PAG has sectors from one to 12, maybe even more of them.

如果你想象一个钟面投射到上面，就像 PAG 有从 1 到 12 的扇区，甚至可能更多。

And in each of those sectors, you find different neurons from the hypothalamus are projecting.

在每个区域中，您都会发现下丘脑的不同神经元正在投射。

So it could turn out that there is a topographic arrangement along the dorsal-ventral axis of the PAG and the mediolateral axis of the PAG that determines the type of behavior that will be emitted when neurons in that region are stimulated.

因此，沿着 PAG 的背腹轴和 PAG 的中外侧轴可能存在地形排列，决定了当该区域的神经元受到刺激时将发出的行为类型。

And I think sort of all of the evidence is pointing in that direction, but by no means has it been mapped out.

我认为所有的证据都指向这个方向，但它还没有被规划出来。

Now, the thing that you mentioned about it not hurting when you got beat up during martial arts, there is a well-known phenomenon called fear-induced analgesia, where when an animal is in a high state of fear, like if it's trying to defend itself, there is a suppression of pain responses.

现在，你提到的在武术中被殴打时不会受伤的事情，有一种众所周知的现象，称为恐惧引起的镇痛，当动物处于高度恐惧状态时，就像它试图保护自己一样，疼痛反应会受到抑制。

And I'm not sure completely about the mechanisms and how well that's understood, but for example, the adrenal gland has a peptide in it that is released from the adrenal medulla, which controls the fight or flight responses, and that peptide has analgesic activities.

我不完全确定其机制以及对它的理解程度，但例如，肾上腺中有一种从肾上腺髓质释放的肽，它控制战斗或逃跑反应，并且该肽具有镇痛活性。

Now, whether-

现在，无论是——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

May I ask what that peptide is?

请问那个肽是什么？

Dr. David Anderson:

大卫·安德森博士：

It's called bovine adrenal medullary peptide of 22 amino acid residues.

它被称为牛肾上腺髓质肽，由22个氨基酸残基组成。

And I only know about it because it activates a receptor that we discovered many years ago that's involved in pain, and we thought it promoted pain, but it turns out that this actually inhibits pain.

我之所以知道它，是因为它激活了我们多年前发现的一种与疼痛有关的受体，我们认为它会促进疼痛，但事实证明这实际上会抑制疼痛。

It's like an endogenous analgesic.

它就像一种内源性镇痛剂。

Whether this is happening, this type of analgesia is happening when an animal is engaged in offensive aggression or in mating behavior, I don't know, but it certainly is possible.

我不知道这种情况是否会发生，当动物进行进攻性攻击或交配行为时，这种镇痛是否会发生，但这肯定是可能的。

And I don't know whether these analgesic mechanisms are happening in the PAG.

我不知道这些镇痛机制是否发生在 PAG 中。

They could also be happening a little further down in the spinal cord.

它们也可能发生在脊髓的更深处。

The PAG is really continuous with the spinal cord.

PAG 与脊髓确实是连续的。

If you just follow it down towards the tail of an animal, you will wind up in the spinal cord.

如果你只是顺着它朝动物的尾巴走去，你最终会进入脊髓。

And so it could be that there are influences acting at many levels on pain in the PAG and in the spinal cord as well.

因此，PAG 和脊髓的疼痛可能在多个层面上都有影响。

And it may well be known, I just don't know it.

这可能是众所周知的，只是我不知道而已。

I want to distinguish clearly between things that are not known, that I know are unknown, which is in a fairly small area where I have expertise, from things that may be known, but I'm ignorant of them because I just don't have a broad enough knowledge base to know that.

我想清楚地区分未知的事物、我知道未知的事物（这是我拥有专业知识的相当小的领域）和可能已知的事物，但我对它们一无所知，因为我没有足够广泛的知识基础来了解它们。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Sure.

当然。

We appreciate those delineations.

我们赞赏这些描述。

Thank you.

谢谢。

PAG is, I think this description of it is an old-fashioned telephone switchboard, and now every time I look into the toilet, I'll think about the periaqueductal gray.

PAG是，我觉得这个描述它是一个老式的电话总机，现在每次我看厕所的时候，我都会想到导水管周围的灰色。

Dr. David Anderson:

大卫·安德森博士：

That's right.

没错。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And every time I see an image of periaqueductal gray, I'll think about a toilet.

每当我看到导水管周围灰色的图像时，我就会想到厕所。

Dr. David Anderson:

大卫·安德森博士：

That's right.

没错。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

That is an excellent description.

这是一个很好的描述。

Because in fact, I drew a circle with a little thing at the bottom and well, I'll put a post or a link to a picture of PAG, and you'll understand why David and I are chuckling here, because indeed, it looks like a toilet when staring into a toilet.

因为事实上，我画了一个圆圈，底部有一个小东西，好吧，我会发布一个 PAG 图片的帖子或链接，你就会明白为什么 David 和我在这里咯咯笑，因为事实上，当你盯着厕所看时，它看起来像一个厕所。

Tell us about tachykinin.

告诉我们有关速激肽的信息。

I've talked about this a couple of times on different podcast episodes because of its relationship to social isolation, and in part because the podcast was launched during a time when there was more social isolation.

我在不同的播客节目中多次讨论过这个问题，因为它与社会隔离有关，部分原因是该播客是在社会隔离较多的时期推出的。

My understanding is that tachykinin, and you'll tell us what it is in a moment, is present in flies, in mice, and in humans, and may do similar things in those species.

我的理解是，速激肽存在于苍蝇、小鼠和人类体内，并且可能在这些物种中发挥类似的作用，稍后您会告诉我们它是什么。

Dr. David Anderson:

大卫·安德森博士：

That's right.

没错。

So tachykinin refers to a family of related neuropeptides.

所以速激肽是指一类相关的神经肽。

So these are brain chemicals.

所以这些是大脑化学物质。

They're different from dopamine and serotonin in that they're not small organic molecules.

它们与多巴胺和血清素的不同之处在于它们不是小有机分子。

They're actually short pieces of protein that are directly encoded by genes that are active in specific neurons and not in others.

它们实际上是一小段蛋白质，由在特定神经元而不是其他神经元中活跃的基因直接编码。

And when those neurons are active, those neuropeptides are released together with classical transmitters like glutamate, whatever.

当这些神经元活跃时，这些神经肽会与谷氨酸等经典递质一起释放。

Tachykinins have been famously implicated in pain, particularly tachykinin-1, which is called substance P, one of the original pain modulating.

众所周知，速激肽与疼痛有关，尤其是速激肽-1，它被称为 P 物质，是最初的疼痛调节剂之一。

This is something that promotes inflammatory pain, but there are other tachykinin genes.

这是一种促进炎症性疼痛的基因，但还有其他速激肽基因。

In mice, there are two.

在小鼠中，有两个。

In humans, I think there are three, and in Drosophila, there is one.

在人类中，我认为有三种，而在果蝇中，有一种。

And the way we got into tachykinins is from studying aggression in flies.

我们获得速激肽的方法是通过研究果蝇的攻击性。

We thought since neuropeptides have this remarkable parallel evolutionary conservation of structure and function, like neuropeptide Y controls feeding in worms, in flies, and mice, and in people.

我们认为，神经肽在结构和功能上具有这种显着的平行进化保守性，就像神经肽 Y 控制着蠕虫、苍蝇、小鼠和人类的进食一样。

Oxytocin-like peptides control reproduction in worms and mice, and in people.

催产素样肽控制蠕虫、小鼠以及人类的繁殖。

We thought we might find peptides that control aggression in flies and in people.

我们认为我们可能会找到控制果蝇和人类攻击性的肽。

And so we did an unbiased screen of peptides and found indeed that one of the tachykinins, Drosophila tachykinin, those neurons, when you activate them, strongly promote aggression, and it depends on the release of tachykinin.

因此，我们对肽进行了公正的筛选，确实发现速激肽之一，果蝇速激肽，这些神经元，当你激活它们时，会强烈促进攻击性，这取决于速激肽的释放。

Now, the interesting thing is that in flies, just like in people and practically any other social animal that shows aggression, social isolation increases aggressiveness.

现在，有趣的是，对于苍蝇来说，就像人类和几乎任何其他表现出攻击性的群居动物一样，社会孤立会增加攻击性。

So putting a violent prisoner in solitary confinement is absolutely the worst, most counterproductive thing you could do to them.

因此，将暴力囚犯单独监禁绝对是你能对他们做的最糟糕、最适得其反的事情。

And indeed, we found in flies that social isolation increases the level of tachykinin in the brain, and if we shut that gene down, it prevents the isolation from increasing aggression.

事实上，我们在果蝇身上发现，社会隔离会增加大脑中速激肽的水平，如果我们关闭该基因，就可以防止隔离增加攻击性。

So since my lab also works on mice, it was natural to see whether tachykinins might be upregulated in social isolation and whether they play a role in aggression.

因此，由于我的实验室也在老鼠身上进行研究，所以很自然地要看看速激肽在社会隔离中是否会上调，以及它们是否在攻击性中发挥作用。

And this is work done by a former postdoc, Moriel Zelikowsky, now at University of Salt Lake City in Utah, and she found remarkably that when mice are socially isolated for two weeks, there is this massive upregulation of tachykinin-2 in their brain.

这项工作是由前博士后 Moriel Zelikowsky 完成的，她现就职于犹他州盐湖城大学，她发现，当小鼠与社会隔离两周时，它们大脑中的 tachykinin-2 会大量上调。

In fact, if you tag the peptide with a green fluorescent protein from a jellyfish genetically, the brain looks green when the mice are socially isolated because there's so much of this stuff released.

事实上，如果你用来自水母的绿色荧光蛋白从基因上标记肽，当老鼠与社会隔离时，大脑看起来是绿色的，因为释放了太多这种东西。

And she went on to show that that increase in tachykinin is responsible for the effect of social isolation to increase aggressiveness and to increase fear and to increase anxiety.

她接着表明，速激肽的增加是导致社会孤立增加攻击性、增加恐惧和焦虑的影响的原因。

And in fact, there are drugs that block the receptor for tachykinin, which were tested in humans and abandoned because they had no efficacy in the tests that they were analyzed for.

事实上，有些药物可以阻断速激肽受体，这些药物在人体中进行了测试，但由于在分析测试中没有效果而被放弃。

If you give those drugs to a socially isolated mouse, it blocks all of the effects of social isolation.

如果你给一只社交孤立的老鼠服用这些药物，它会阻止社交孤立的所有影响。

It blocks the aggression, it blocks the increased fear, and the increased anxiety, and that Moriel described it, the mice just look chill.

它可以阻止攻击性，阻止增加的恐惧和增加的焦虑，正如莫里尔所描述的，老鼠只是看起来很冷淡。

It's not a sedative, which is really important.

它不是镇静剂，这一点非常重要。

It's not that the mice are going to sleep.

这并不是说老鼠要睡觉了。

Most remarkably is once you socially isolate a mouse and it becomes aggressive, you can never put it back in its cage with its brothers from its litter because it will kill them all overnight.

最值得注意的是，一旦你在社会上孤立了一只老鼠，它变得具有攻击性，你就永远不能把它和它的兄弟们一起放回笼子里，因为它会在一夜之间杀死它们。

But if you give it this drug, which is called osananat, that blocks tachykinin-2, that mouse can be returned to the cage with its brothers and will not attack them and seems to be happy about that for the rest of the time.

但如果你给它服用这种名为 osananat 的药物，它可以阻断 tachykinin-2，那么这只老鼠就可以和它的兄弟们一起回到笼子里，并且不会攻击它们，并且在剩下的时间里似乎对此感到高兴。

So this is an incredibly powerful effect of this drug, and I've been really interested in trying to get pharmaceutical companies to test this drug, which has a really good safety profile in humans, in testing it in people who are subjected to social isolation, stress, or bereavement stress.

因此，这种药物具有令人难以置信的强大作用，我一直非常有兴趣尝试让制药公司测试这种药物，这种药物在人类中具有非常好的安全性，在遭受社会孤立、压力或丧亲压力的人身上进行测试。

And this is one of the areas where I learned an eye-opening lesson as a basic scientist who naively thought that if you make a discovery and it has translational applications to humans, that pharmaceutical companies are going to be falling all over themselves to try it.

作为一名基础科学家，我在这个领域学到了令人大开眼界的一课，他天真地认为，如果你有了一项发现，并且它对人类有转化应用，制药公司就会全力以赴地尝试它。

And they're not interested because once burned, twice shy.

他们不感兴趣，因为一旦被烧伤，两次害羞。

These drugs were tested for efficacy in schizophrenia.

这些药物对精神分裂症的疗效进行了测试。

I have no idea why.

我不知道为什么。

There's very little pre-clinical data to suggest that.

很少有临床前数据表明这一点。

Not surprisingly, they failed.

毫不奇怪，他们失败了。

When a drug fails in clinical trials in phase three, it costs $100 million to the company that carried out that clinical trial.

当一种药物在第三阶段临床试验中失败时，进行该临床试验的公司将损失 1 亿美元。

So there's a huge slag heap of discarded pharmaceuticals, many of them inhibitors of neuropeptide action, that could be useful in other indications, such as the one we discovered, but there's a huge economic disincentive for pharmaceutical companies to test them again because the conclusion that they drew from all these failed tests, particularly in the 2010s and before that, is that the reason they failed is because animal experiments with drugs don't predict how humans will respond to the drugs.

因此，有一大堆废弃的药物，其中许多是神经肽作用的抑制剂，可能对其他适应症有用，比如我们发现的适应症，但制药公司再次测试这些药物存在巨大的经济阻碍，因为他们从所有这些失败的测试中得出的结论，特别是在 2010 年代及之前，他们失败的原因是因为药物动物实验无法预测人类对药物的反应。

And therefore We shouldn't try to extrapolate from any other data that we get from animal experiments, mouse or rat experiments to humans, because they'll lead us down the wrong track.

因此，我们不应该试图从动物实验、小鼠或大鼠实验到人类的任何其他数据中进行推断，因为它们会让我们走上错误的道路。

And I think that that is probably wrong.

我认为这可能是错误的。

In some cases, it may be right, but in other cases, there's good reason to think because these brain regions and molecules are so evolutionarily conserved, that they ought to be playing a similar role in humans.

在某些情况下，这可能是正确的，但在其他情况下，我们有充分的理由认为，因为这些大脑区域和分子在进化上如此保守，它们应该在人类中发挥类似的作用。

In fact, there is a paper showing that in humans that have borderline personality disorder, there's a strong correlation between their self-reported level of aggressiveness and serum levels of a tachykinin, in this case, tachykinin-1, as detected by radioimmunoassay.

事实上，有一篇论文表明，在患有边缘性人格障碍的人中，他们自我报告的攻击性水平与放射免疫测定检测到的速激肽（在本例中为速激肽-1）血清水平之间存在很强的相关性。

This is work of Emil Coccaro, who's a clinical psychiatrist at the University of Chicago.

这是芝加哥大学临床精神病学家埃米尔·科卡罗 (Emil Coccaro) 的作品。

So there is a smoking gun in the case of humans as well.

因此，人类的情况也有确凿证据。

And, I was actually trying to interest a pharmaceutical company that was testing these drugs, actually for treatment of hot flashes in females, in humans, where there is actually good animal data to think that it might be useful.

而且，我实际上是想引起一家制药公司的兴趣，该公司正在测试这些药物，实际上是用于治疗女性和人类的潮热，实际上有良好的动物数据认为它可能有用。

But I realized that this clinical trial was going on during the COVID pandemic.

但我意识到这项临床试验是在新冠病毒大流行期间进行的。

And I approached them and said, "Look, nature may have actually done for you the experiment that I want you to do, because some of the people who are getting drug or placebo are going to have been socially isolated, and some of them will have not.

我走近他们说：“看，大自然可能实际上已经为你做了我希望你做的实验，因为一些服用药物或安慰剂的人会被社会孤立，而另一些人则不会。

Why don't you get them to fill out questionnaires and see whether the ones who were given the drug and socially isolated felt less stressed and less anxious than the ones who were not socially isolated?" And they would not touch it, because they're in the middle of a clinical trial for a different indication for this drug, and they have to report any observation that they make about that drug in their patient population.

你为什么不让他们填写调查问卷，看看那些服用药物并被社会孤立的人是否比那些没有被社会孤立的人感到压力更小、焦虑更少？”他们不会碰它，因为他们正在对这种药物的不同适应症进行临床试验，他们必须报告他们在患者群体中对该药物的任何观察结果。

So if they were to ask these questions and get an unfavorable answer, "Oh my God, I felt even worse when I took this drug and I was isolated," they would be obliged to report that to the FDA, and that could torpedo the chances for the drug being approved in the thing that it was in clinical trials for.

因此，如果他们问这些问题并得到不利的答案，“天哪，当我服用这种药物并且被隔离时，我感觉更糟”，他们将有义务向 FDA 报告这一情况，这可能会破坏该药物在临床试验中获得批准的机会。

So it's better not to ask and not to know, than it is to try to find out more information that could lead to another clinical indication.

因此，最好不要问，也不要知道，而不是试图找出更多可能导致另一种临床适应症的信息。

So I remain convinced that this family of drugs could have very powerful uses in treating some forms of stress-induced anxiety or aggressiveness in humans, but it's just very difficult for economic reasons to find a way to get somebody to test that.

因此，我仍然相信，这一类药物在治疗人类某些形式的压力引起的焦虑或攻击性方面可能具有非常强大的用途，但出于经济原因，很难找到一种方法让人们对其进行测试。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

A true shame that these companies won't do this, and especially given the fact that many of these drugs exist and their safety profiles are established, because that's always a serious-

真正的耻辱是这些公司不会这样做，特别是考虑到许多这样的药物存在并且它们的安全性已经建立，因为这始终是一个严重的问题——

Dr. David Anderson:

大卫·安德森博士：

Yep

是的

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

consideration when embarking on a clinical trial.

开始临床试验时的考虑。

Perhaps in hearing this discussion, someone out there will understand the key importance of this and will reach out to us.

也许在听到这个讨论后，有人会理解这一点的重要性，并会与我们联系。

We'll provide ways to do that to get such a study going in humans.

我们将提供方法来实现这一点，以便在人类中进行这样的研究。

Because I think if enough laboratories ran small-scale clinical trials, pharma certainly would perk up their ears, right?

因为我认为如果有足够多的实验室进行小规模临床试验，制药公司肯定会竖起耳朵，对吗？

They're so strategic-

他们很有策略——

Dr. David Anderson:

大卫·安德森博士：

Yep

是的

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

sometimes to their own-

有时对自己——

Dr. David Anderson:

大卫·安德森博士：

I would like to say also, I'd like to see this tested on pets.

我还想说，我希望看到这个在宠物身上进行测试。

There's a huge number of pets right now that are suffering separation anxiety because humans bought them to keep them company during the COVID pandemic.

现在有大量的宠物患有分离焦虑症，因为人类在新冠病毒大流行期间购买它们是为了陪伴它们。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And now they're home alone.

现在他们独自在家。

Dr. David Anderson:

大卫·安德森博士：

And now they're home alone.

现在他们独自在家。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Dr. David Anderson:

大卫·安德森博士：

Okay?

好吧？

And if this thing works in mice, there's certainly a higher chance it's going to work in dogs or in cats than it is going to work in humans.

如果这个东西在老鼠身上有效，那么它在狗或猫身上起作用的可能性肯定比在人类身上起作用的可能性更高。

And if it did, that would be even more encouragement to continue along those lines.

如果确实如此，那将更加鼓励人们继续沿着这些路线前进。

People sometimes forget that although we work on animals and we ultimately want to understand humans, we care about how our results apply to the welfare of animals as well, and particularly domestic pets, which is a multi-billion dollar industry in this country.

人们有时会忘记，虽然我们研究动物并且最终想要了解人类，但我们关心我们的结果如何应用于动物的福利，特别是家养宠物，这是这个国家一个价值数十亿美元的产业。

So if there's ways that they can be made to feel better when they're separated from their owners, that would certainly be a good thing.

因此，如果有办法让它们在与主人分开时感觉更好，那肯定是一件好事。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Absolutely.

绝对的。

We will put out the call.

我们将发出呼叫。

We are putting out the call, and I know for sure there will be a response.

我们正在发出呼吁，我确信一定会得到回应。

Just underscoring what we've been talking about even more, every time we hear about a school shooting, like in Texas recently, or I happened to be in New York during the time when there was a subway shooting.

只是强调我们一直在谈论的更多内容，每次我们听到学校枪击事件，比如最近在德克萨斯州，或者我碰巧在纽约发生地铁枪击事件时。

For whatever reason, I listened to the book about Columbine that went into a very detailed way about the origin of those boys that committed that.

不管出于什么原因，我听了一本关于哥伦拜恩的书，这本书非常详细地讲述了那些犯下这些罪行的男孩的起源。

And every single time, the person who commits those acts is socially isolated.

每一次，做出这些行为的人都会被社会孤立。

Dr. David Anderson:

大卫·安德森博士：

Yep.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

As far as I know.

据我所知。

Dr. David Anderson:

大卫·安德森博士：

Yep.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

There might be some exceptions there, and sometimes this crosses over with other mental health issues, but sometimes no. No apparent mental health issues.

可能会有一些例外，有时这会与其他心理健康问题交叉，但有时不会。没有明显的心理健康问题。

So social isolation clearly drives powerful neurochemical and neurobiological changes.

因此，社会隔离显然会导致强大的神经化学和神经生物学变化。

I really hope that tachykinin-1 and 2, those are the main ones in humans-

我真的希望速激肽-1和2，它们是人类的主要速激肽-

Dr. David Anderson:

大卫·安德森博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

will be explored in more detail.

将进行更详细的探讨。

Also, I didn't know that tachykinin-1 is substance P, and substance P-

另外，我不知道tachykinin-1是P物质，而P物质-

Dr. David Anderson:

大卫·安德森博士：

Yes

是的

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

is tachykinin-1.

是速激肽-1。

Dr. David Anderson:

大卫·安德森博士：

Yes.

是的。

Tachykinin-1 is the gene name, and tachykinin-2 in humans is called neurokinin B.

Tachykinin-1 是基因名称，tachykinin-2 在人类中称为神经激肽 B。

That's the name of the protein.

这就是蛋白质的名字。

I just refer to it by the gene name because it makes it easier, and I don't have to keep remembering two names for each thing.

我只是用基因名称来引用它，因为这样更容易，而且我不必记住每件事的两个名称。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And if I'm not mistaken, you put yourself in the company of geneticists because your original training was in genetics, immunology, and areas related to that.

如果我没记错的话，你把自己置于遗传学家的陪伴下，因为你最初接受的培训是遗传学、免疫学以及与之相关的领域。

Dr. David Anderson:

大卫·安德森博士：

It was in cell biology, and I didn't actually have formal training in genetics as a graduate student, but I think I'm a geneticist at heart.

那是在细胞生物学领域，作为一名研究生，我实际上并没有接受过正规的遗传学培训，但我认为我本质上是一名遗传学家。

That's just the way I like to think about things.

这就是我喜欢思考事情的方式。

And when I started working on flies, I came out of the closet as a geneticist, as it were.

当我开始研究苍蝇时，我就以遗传学家的身份出柜了。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Wonderful.

太棒了。

As long as we're talking about humans, I'd love to get your thoughts about human studies of emotion.

只要我们谈论人类，我很想听听您对人类情感研究的看法。

I know you wrote this book with Ralph Adolphs.

我知道你和拉尔夫·阿道夫斯一起写了这本书。

You have this new book, which we'll provide a link to, which I've read front to back twice.

您有这本新书，我们将提供该书的链接，我已经从头到尾读了两遍。

It's phenomenal.

这是惊人的。

Dr. David Anderson:

大卫·安德森博士：

Thank you.

谢谢你。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I've mentioned it before on the podcast.

我之前在播客上提到过。

There are books that are worth reading, and then there are books that are important, and I think this book is truly important for the general population to read and understand.

有些书值得一读，有些书很重要，我认为这本书对于普通大众阅读和理解来说确实很重要。

And neuroscientists should read and understand the contents, because we, as a culture, are way off in terms of how we think about emotions and states and behaviors.

神经科学家应该阅读并理解其中的内容，因为作为一种文化，我们在如何看待情绪、状态和行为方面存在很大差距。

So we'll put a link to that.

所以我们会放一个链接。

It's really worth the time and energy to read it.

确实值得花时间和精力来阅读它。

And it's written beautifully, I should say.

我应该说，它写得很漂亮。

Dr. David Anderson:

大卫·安德森博士：

Thank you.

谢谢你。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Very accessible, even for non-scientists.

即使对于非科学家来说也非常容易理解。

There's a heat map diagram in that book that I think about.

我想到那本书里有一个热图。

This is a heat map diagram of subjective reports that people gave of where they experience an emotion or a feeling, a somatic feeling in their body or in their head, or both when they are angry, sad, calm, lonely, et cetera.

这是主观报告的热图，人们在愤怒、悲伤、平静、孤独等时体验到一种情绪或感觉，身体或头脑中的躯体感觉，或两者兼而有之。

And I wouldn't want people to think that those heat maps were generated by any physiological measurement, because they were not.

我不希望人们认为这些热图是由任何生理测量生成的，因为事实并非如此。

And yet, I don't think we can have a discussion about emotions and states and the sorts of behaviors that we're talking about today without thinking about the body also.

然而，我认为我们不能在不考虑身体的情况下讨论我们今天讨论的情绪、状态和行为类型。

Dr. David Anderson:

大卫·安德森博士：

Yep.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And I'm not coming to this as a Northern California mind-body.

我并不是以北加州的身心来谈这个问题的。

Dr. David Anderson:

大卫·安德森博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I've been to Esalen once.

我去过伊莎兰一次。

I didn't go in the baths.

我没有去浴室。

I went there, I gave a talk, and I left.

我去了那里，发表了演讲，然后就离开了。

It is very beautiful.

它非常美丽。

If anyone wants to know what it looks like, I think that final scene of "Mad Men" is shot at Esalen.

如果有人想知道它是什么样子，我想《广告狂人》的最后一幕是在伊莎兰拍摄的。

It's a very beautiful place, and yet mind-body, to me, is a neurobiological construct, because the nervous system extends through out of the cranial vault and into the spinal cord-

这是一个非常美丽的地方，但对我来说，身心是一种神经生物学结构，因为神经系统从颅顶延伸到脊髓——

Dr. David Anderson:

大卫·安德森博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

and body and back and forth.

和身体来回。

Okay.

好的。

How should we think about the body and in terms of states?

我们应该如何看待身体和状态？

And at some point, I'd love for you to comment on that heat map experiment, because it does seem that there's some regularity as to where people experience emotions.

在某些时候，我希望你对热图实验发表评论，因为人们体验情绪的地方似乎确实存在一些规律性。

When people are in a rage, for instance, they seem to feel it both in their gut and in their head, it seems, on average.

例如，当人们愤怒时，平均而言，他们的直觉和头脑似乎都能感受到这种感觉。

And people love to extrapolate to gut intuition or that the chakras or anger is in the stomach, and this goes to Eastern medicine, et cetera.

人们喜欢推断直觉或脉轮或愤怒在胃里，这适用于东方医学等等。

How should we think about mind-body in the context of states, and think about it as scientists, maybe even as neuroscientists or geneticists?

我们应该如何在状态的背景下思考身心，并作为科学家，甚至神经科学家或遗传学家来思考它？

Dr. David Anderson:

大卫·安德森博士：

Good.

很好。

So for the answer to the first question about the heat maps and people associating certain parts of their body with certain emotional feelings, this goes back to something called the somatic marker hypothesis that was proposed by Antonio Damasio, who is a neurologist at USC.

因此，对于关于热图和人们将身体的某些部位与某些情绪感受联系起来的第一个问题的答案，这可以追溯到南加州大学神经学家安东尼奥·达马西奥提出的所谓躯体标记假说。

The idea that our subjective feeling of a particular emotion is in part associated with a sensation of something happening in a particular part of our body, the gut, the heart.

我们对某种特定情绪的主观感受部分与我们身体特定部位（肠道、心脏）发生的事情的感觉有关。

I don't see the liver invoked very much in emotional characterization.

我没有看到肝脏在情感表征中被太多提及。

But-

但是——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But gall and the gallbladder?

但是胆和胆囊呢？

Dr. David Anderson:

大卫·安德森博士：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Somebody having a lot of gall.

有人有很多胆量。

Dr. David Anderson:

大卫·安德森博士：

That's right.

没错。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I don't know why I make a fist when I say that, but I'm guessing-

我不知道为什么我说这句话时会握拳，但我猜——

Dr. David Anderson:

大卫·安德森博士：

Right

右

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

the gallbladder is shaped like a fist.

胆囊的形状像拳头。

Dr. David Anderson:

大卫·安德森博士：

That's right.

没错。

And if there is a physiology underlying these heat maps, it could reflect increased blood flow to these different structures, and that, in turn, reflects what you were talking about.

如果这些热图背后存在生理学，它可以反映流向这些不同结构的血流量增加，而这反过来又反映了您所谈论的内容。

That is, emotion definitely involves communication between the brain and the body, and it's bidirectional communication.

也就是说，情绪肯定涉及大脑和身体之间的沟通，而且是双向的沟通。

And it's mediated by the peripheral nervous system, the sympathetic, and the parasympathetic nervous system, which control heart rate, for example, blood vessel, blood pressure.

它是由周围神经系统、交感神经和副交感神经系统介导的，这些神经系统控制心率，例如血管、血压。

And those neurons receive input from the hypothalamus and other central brain regions that control their activity.

这些神经元接收来自下丘脑和其他控制其活动的中枢大脑区域的输入。

And when the brain is put in a particular state, it activates sympathetic and parasympathetic neurons, which have effects on the heart and on blood pressure.

当大脑处于特定状态时，它会激活交感神经和副交感神经元，从而对心脏和血压产生影响。

And these, in turn, feed back onto the brain through the sensory system.

这些反过来又通过感觉系统反馈到大脑。

And a large part of this bidirectional communication is also mediated through the vagus nerve, which many of your listeners and viewers may have heard about because it's become a topic of intense activity now.

这种双向交流的很大一部分也是通过迷走神经介导的，许多听众和观众可能都听说过迷走神经，因为它现在已经成为一个激烈活动的话题。

People have known for a long time.

人们很早就知道了。

So the vagus nerve is a bundle of nerve fibers that comes out, basically, of your skull, out of the central nervous system, and then sends fibers into your heart, your gut, all sorts of visceral organs.

所以迷走神经是一束神经纤维，基本上从你的头骨中出来，从中枢神经系统发出，然后将纤维发送到你的心脏、肠道和各种内脏器官。

And that information is both, you used the words earlier in our discussion, afferent and efferent.

您在我们前面的讨论中使用了这些词，该信息既是传入的又是传出的。

So the vagal fibers sense things that are happening in the body.

因此，迷走神经纤维感知体内发生的事情。

So the reason you feel your stomach tied up in knots if you're tense is that those vagal fibers are sensing the contraction of the gut muscles.

因此，当你紧张时，你会感到胃部打结，因为这些迷走神经纤维正在感知肠道肌肉的收缩。

And they're also afferents, which means that information coming out of the brain can influence those peripheral organs as well.

它们也是传入神经，这意味着来自大脑的信息也可以影响这些周围器官。

And there's work from a number of labs just in the last six months or so where people are starting to decode the components of the different fibers in the vagus nerve.

在过去六个月左右的时间里，许多实验室都在开展工作，人们开始解码迷走神经中不同纤维的成分。

And it's amazing how much specificity is.

令人惊讶的是它的特异性如此之大。

There are specific vagal nerves that go to the lung, that control breathing responses, that go to the gut, that go to other organs.

有一些特定的迷走神经通向肺部，控制呼吸反应，通向肠道，通向其他器官。

It's almost like a set of color-coded lines, labeled lines for those things.

它几乎就像一组颜色编码的线，这些东西的标记线。

And now how- How those vagal afferents play a role in the playing out of emotion states is a fascinating question that people are just beginning to scrape the surface of.

现在，这些迷走神经传入如何在情绪状态的表现中发挥作用是一个令人着迷的问题，人们才刚刚开始触及表面。

But I think what's exciting now is that people are going to be developing tools that will allow us to turn on or turn off specific subsets of fibers within the vagus nerve and ask how that affects particular emotional behaviors.

但我认为现在令人兴奋的是，人们将开发工具，使我们能够打开或关闭迷走神经内的特定纤维子集，并了解这如何影响特定的情绪行为。

So you're absolutely right, this brain-body connection is critical, not just for the gut, but for the heart, for the lungs, for all kinds of other parts of your body, and Darwin recognized that as well.

所以你说得完全正确，这种大脑与身体的联系至关重要，不仅对肠道，而且对心脏、肺、身体的所有其他部位，达尔文也认识到了这一点。

And I think it's a central feature of emotion state, and I think what underlies our subjective feelings of an emotion.

我认为这是情绪状态的核心特征，也是我们对情绪的主观感受的基础。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Incredible.

难以置信。

David, I have to say, as a true fan of the work that your lab has been doing over so many decades, and first of all, I was delighted when you stopped working on stem cells, not because you weren't doing incredible work there, but because I saw a talk where you showed a movie of an octopus squirting out a bunch of ink and escaping, and you said you were going to work on things of the sort that we're talking about today, fear, aggression, mating behaviors, social behaviors.

大卫，我不得不说，作为你实验室几十年来所做工作的真正粉丝，首先，当你停止研究干细胞时，我很高兴，不是因为你在那里没有做令人难以置信的工作，而是因为我看到一个演讲，你播放了一部章鱼喷出一堆墨水并逃跑的电影，你说你将研究我们今天谈论的那种东西，恐惧，攻击性，交配行为、社会行为。

It's been incredible to see the work that your lab has done, and I know I speak on behalf of a tremendous number of people when I say thank you for taking time out of your important schedule to share with us what you've learned.

看到你们实验室所做的工作真是令人难以置信，我知道当我感谢你们从重要的日程中抽出时间与我们分享你们所学到的东西时，我代表了很多人。

My last question is a simple one, which is, will you come back and talk to us again in the future about the additional work that's sure to come?

我的最后一个问题很简单，那就是，您将来会回来再次与我们讨论肯定会发生的额外工作吗？

Dr. David Anderson:

大卫·安德森博士：

I would be happy to do that, and I really have appreciated your questions.

我很乐意这样做，并且非常感谢您提出的问题。

They've all been right on the money.

他们在金钱上都是正确的。

You've hit all of the critical, important issues in this field, and you've uncovered what is known, the little bit is known, and how much is not known.

您已经解决了该领域中所有关键、重要的问题，并且您已经发现了已知的内容、已知的一点点以及未知的内容。

And I think it's important to emphasize the unknown things, because that's what the next generation of neuroscientists has to solve.

我认为强调未知的事情很重要，因为这是下一代神经科学家必须解决的问题。

And so I hope this will help to attract young people into this field, because it's so important, particularly for our understanding of mental illness and mental health and psychiatry.

所以我希望这将有助于吸引年轻人进入这个领域，因为它非常重要，特别是对于我们对精神疾病、心理健康和精神病学的理解。

We've got to figure out how emotion systems are controlled in a causal way if we ever want to improve on the psychiatric treatments that we have now.

如果我们想改进现有的精神病治疗，我们就必须弄清楚情绪系统是如何以因果方式控制的。

And that's going to require the next generation of people coming into the field.

这将需要下一代人进入这个领域。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Absolutely.

绝对的。

I second that.

我赞同这一点。

Well, thank you.

嗯，谢谢。

It's been a delight.

这真是令人高兴。

Dr. David Anderson:

大卫·安德森博士：

Thank you.

谢谢你。

Great.

伟大的。

Really appreciate it.

真的很感激。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Thank you for joining me today for my discussion with Dr. David Anderson.

感谢您今天加入我与大卫·安德森博士的讨论。

Please also be sure to check out his new book, "The Nature of the Beast: How Emotions Guide Us." It's a truly masterful exploration of the biology and psychology behind what we call emotions and states of mind and body.

另请务必阅读他的新书《野兽的本质：情绪如何引导我们》。这是对我们所说的情绪和身心状态背后的生物学和心理学的真正精湛的探索。

If you're learning from and/or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel.

如果您正在学习和/或喜欢此播客，请订阅我们的 YouTube 频道。

That's a simple, zero-cost way to support us.

这是支持我们的一种简单、零成本的方式。

Please also subscribe to the podcast on Spotify and Apple.

另请订阅 Spotify 和 Apple 上的播客。

And on both Spotify and Apple, you have the opportunity to leave us up to a five-star review.

在 Spotify 和 Apple 上，您都有机会给我们留下五星级的评价。

If you have questions or comments or suggestions about topics you'd like us to cover or guests you'd like us to interview on the Huberman Lab Podcast, please put those in the comments section on YouTube.

如果您对希望我们在 Huberman 实验室播客上报道的主题或采访嘉宾有疑问、意见或建议，请将这些问题放入 YouTube 的评论部分。

We do read all those comments, and we do take them to heart.

我们确实阅读了所有这些评论，并且确实将它们牢记在心。

Please also check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning of today's podcast.

另请查看今天播客开头提到的赞助商。

And check out Momentous Supplements, our new partners in the supplement space, and check out Athletic Greens.

并查看我们在补充剂领域的新合作伙伴 Momentous Supplements，以及 Athletic Greens。

That's the best way to support this podcast.

这是支持这个播客的最佳方式。

If you're not already following us on social media, please do so.

如果您还没有在社交媒体上关注我们，请这样做。

We are hubermanlab on Twitter, and we are also hubermanlab on Instagram, and both places, I cover science and science-related tools, some of which overlap with the content of the Huberman Lab podcast, but much of which is unique from the content covered on the Huberman Lab podcast.

我们在 Twitter 上是 hubermanlab，在 Instagram 上也是 hubermanlab，在这两个地方，我都会介绍科学和与科学相关的工具，其中一些与 Huberman Lab 播客的内容重叠，但其中很多内容与 Huberman Lab 播客所涵盖的内容是独特的。

Again, that's hubermanlab on Instagram and hubermanlab on Twitter.

同样，这是 Instagram 上的 hubermanlab 和 Twitter 上的 hubermanlab。

Please also check out our Neural Network monthly newsletter.

另请查看我们的神经网络每月通讯。

This is a newsletter that has summaries of podcast episodes.

这是一份包含播客剧集摘要的时事通讯。

It also includes a lot of actionable protocols.

它还包括许多可操作的协议。

It's very easy to sign up for the newsletter.

订阅时事通讯非常容易。

You go to hubermanlab.com, click on the menu, go to Newsletter.

您访问 hubermanlab.com，单击菜单，转到新闻通讯。

You supply your email, but we do not share your email with anybody.

您提供您的电子邮件，但我们不会与任何人分享您的电子邮件。

We have a very clear and rigorous privacy policy, which is we do not share your email with anybody.

我们有非常明确和严格的隐私政策，即我们不会与任何人分享您的电子邮件。

And the newsletter comes out once a month, and it is completely zero cost.

而且简讯每月出一期，而且完全是零成本。

Again, just go to hubermanlab.com and go to the Neural Network newsletter.

同样，只需访问 hubermanlab.com 并访问神经网络新闻通讯。

I'd also like to point out that the Huberman Lab podcast has a clips channel.

我还想指出，Huberman Lab 播客有一个剪辑频道。

So these are brief clips, anywhere from three to 10 minutes, that encompass single concepts and actionable protocols related to sleep, to focus, interviews with various guests.

因此，这些都是简短的剪辑，从三到十分钟不等，包含与睡眠相关的单一概念和可操作的协议，重点是对不同嘉宾的采访。

We talk about things like caffeine, when to drink caffeine relative to sleep, alcohol, when and how and if anyone should ingest it relative to sleep, dopamine, serotonin, mental health, physical health, and on and on.

我们谈论咖啡因、与睡眠相关的何时喝咖啡因、酒精、与睡眠相关的何时、如何以及是否应该摄入咖啡因、多巴胺、血清素、心理健康、身体健康等等。

All the things that relate to the topics most of interest to you.

与您最感兴趣的主题相关的所有内容。

You can find that easily by going to YouTube.

您可以通过访问 YouTube 轻松找到该内容。

Look for Huberman Lab clips in the search area, and it will take you there.

在搜索区域中查找 Huberman 实验室剪辑，它会带您到那里。

Subscribe, and we are constantly updating those with new clips.

订阅，我们会不断更新新剪辑。

This is especially useful, I believe, for people that have missed some of the earlier episodes, or you're still working through the back catalog of Huberman Lab podcasts, which admittedly can be rather long.

我相信，对于那些错过了一些早期剧集的人，或者您仍在浏览 Huberman Lab 播客的后台目录的人来说，这特别有用，诚然，这些目录可能相当长。

And last but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.

最后但并非最不重要的一点是，感谢您对科学的兴趣。