Dr. Charles Zuker: The Biology of Taste Perception & Sugar Craving
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.
欢迎来到休伯曼实验室播客，我们在这里讨论科学和基于科学的日常生活工具。
I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.
我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。
Today, my guest is Dr. Charles Zuker.
今天，我的嘉宾是查尔斯·祖克博士。
Dr. Zuker is a professor of biochemistry and molecular biophysics and of neuroscience at Columbia University School of Medicine.
Zuker 博士是哥伦比亚大学医学院生物化学和分子生物物理学以及神经科学教授。
Dr. Zuker is one of the world's leading experts in perception.
Zuker 博士是世界领先的感知专家之一。
That is how the nervous system converts physical stimuli in the world into events within the nervous system that we come to understand as our sense of smell, our sense of taste, our sense of vision, our sense of touch, and our sense of hearing.
这就是神经系统如何将世界上的物理刺激转化为神经系统内的事件，我们将其理解为我们的嗅觉、味觉、视觉、触觉和听觉。
Dr. Zuker's lab is responsible for a tremendous amount of pioneering and groundbreaking work in the area of perception.
Zuker 博士的实验室在感知领域进行了大量开拓性和突破性的工作。
For a long time, his laboratory worked on vision, defining the very receptors that allow for the conversion of light into signals that the rest of the eye and the brain can understand.
长期以来，他的实验室致力于视觉研究，定义了将光转换为眼睛和大脑其他部分可以理解的信号的受体。
In recent years, his laboratory has focused mainly on the perception of taste, and indeed, his laboratory is responsible for discovering many of the taste receptors, leading to our perception of things like sweetness, sourness, bitterness, saltiness, and umami.
近年来，他的实验室主要关注味觉感知，事实上，他的实验室负责发现许多味觉受体，导致我们对甜味、酸味、苦味、咸味和鲜味等事物的感知。
That is savoriness in food.
这就是食物的美味。
Dr. Zuker's laboratory is also responsible for doing groundbreaking work on the sense of thirst.
Zuker博士的实验室还负责在口渴感方面进行开创性的工作。
That is how the nervous system determines whether or not we should ingest more fluid or reject fluids that are offered to us.
这就是神经系统决定我们是否应该摄入更多液体或拒绝提供给我们的液体的方式。
A key feature of the work from Dr. Zuker's laboratory is that it bridges the brain and body.
祖克博士实验室的工作的一个关键特点是它连接了大脑和身体。
As you'll soon learn from today's discussion, his laboratory has discovered a unique set of sugar-sensing neurons that exist not just within the brain, but a separate set of neurons that sense sweetness and sugar within the body, and that much of the communication between the brain and body leading to our seeking of sugar is below our conscious detection.
您很快就会从今天的讨论中了解到，他的实验室发现了一组独特的糖感应神经元，这些神经元不仅存在于大脑中，而且还存在于体内的一组单独的神经元，它们可以感知体内的甜味和糖分，并且导致我们寻找糖分的大脑和身体之间的大部分交流都在我们的意识检测范围之下。
Dr. Zuker has received a large number of prestigious awards and appointments as a consequence of his discoveries in neuroscience.
Zuker 博士因其在神经科学领域的发现而获得了大量享有盛誉的奖项和任命。
He is a member of the National Academy of Sciences, the National Academy of Medicine, and the American Association for the Advancement of Science.
他是美国国家科学院、美国国家医学院和美国科学促进会的成员。
He is also an investigator with the Howard Hughes Medical Institute.
他还是霍华德休斯医学研究所的研究员。
For those of you that are not familiar with the so-called HHMI, the Howard Hughes Medical Institute, Howard Hughes Medical Institute investigators are selected on an extremely competitive basis, and indeed, they have to come back every five years and prove themselves worthy of being reappointed as Howard Hughes investigators.
对于那些不熟悉所谓的霍华德休斯医学研究所的人来说，霍华德休斯医学研究所的调查员是在极其竞争的基础上选拔的，事实上，他们必须每五年回来一次，证明自己值得被重新任命为霍华德休斯医学研究所的调查员。
Dr. Zuker has been a Howard Hughes investigator since 1989.
Zuker 博士自 1989 年以来一直是霍华德休斯研究所的研究员。
What all that means for you as a viewer and/or listener of today's podcast is that you are about to learn about the nervous system and its ability to create perceptions, in particular, the perception of taste and sugar sensing from the world's expert on perception and taste.
作为今天播客的观众和/或听众，这一切对您来说意味着您将了解神经系统及其创造感知的能力，特别是来自世界感知和味觉专家的味觉和糖感知能力。
I'm certain that by the end of today's podcast, you're not just going to come away with a deeper understanding of our perceptions and our perception of taste in particular, but indeed, you will come away with an understanding of how we create internal representations of the entire world around us, and in doing so, how we come to understand our life experience.
我确信，在今天的播客结束时，你不仅会更深入地了解我们的感知，特别是我们对品味的感知，而且事实上，你还会了解我们如何创建我们周围整个世界的内部表征，以及在此过程中我们如何理解我们的生活经历。
Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.
在开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。
It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public.
然而，我的愿望和努力的一部分是向公众提供有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本消费者信息。
In keeping with that theme, I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast.
为了与这个主题保持一致，我要感谢今天播客的赞助商。
And now for my discussion with Dr. Charles Zuker.
现在我与查尔斯·祖克博士进行讨论。
Charles, thank you so much for joining me today.
查尔斯，非常感谢你今天加入我的行列。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
My pleasure.
我很高兴。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I want to ask you about many things related to taste and gustatory perception, but maybe to start off, and because you've worked on a number of different topics in neuroscience, not just taste, how do you think about perception?
我想问您有关味觉和味觉知觉的许多问题，但也许首先，因为您研究了神经科学中的许多不同主题，而不仅仅是味觉，您如何看待知觉？
Or rather, I should say, how should the world and people think about perception, how it's different from sensation, and what leads to our experience of life in terms of vision, hearing, taste, et cetera?
或者更确切地说，我应该说，世界和人们应该如何思考感知，它与感觉有何不同，以及是什么导致了我们在视觉、听觉、味觉等方面的生活体验？
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
So, the brain is an extraordinary organ that weighs maybe 2% of your body mass, yet it consumes anywhere between 25% to 30% of all of your energy and oxygen, and it gets transformed into a mind, and this mind changes the human condition.
所以，大脑是一个非凡的器官，它的重量可能是你体重的 2%，但它却消耗了你所有能量和氧气的 25% 到 30%，并且它转变为思想，而这个思想改变了人类的状况。
It changes, it transforms fear into courage, conformity into creativity, sadness into happiness.
它改变了，它将恐惧转化为勇气，将顺从转化为创造力，将悲伤转化为幸福。
How the hell does that happen?
这到底是怎么发生的？
Now, the challenge that the brain faces is that the world is made of real things.
现在，大脑面临的挑战是世界是由真实的事物组成的。
This here is a glass, and this is a cord, and this is a microphone.
这是一个玻璃杯，这是一根绳子，这是一个麦克风。
But the brain is only made of neurons that only understand electrical signals.
但大脑仅由只能理解电信号的神经元组成。
So how do you transform that reality into nothing that electrical signals that now need to represent the world?
那么，如何将现实转变为现在需要代表世界的电信号呢？
And that process is what we can operationally define as perception.
这个过程我们可以在操作上定义为感知。
In the senses, let's say olfactory, odor, taste, vision, we can very straightforwardly separate detection from perception.
在感官方面，比如说嗅觉、气味、味觉、视觉，我们可以非常直接地将检测与感知分开。
Detection is what happens when you take a sugar molecule, you put it in your tongue, and then a set of specific cells now sense that sugar molecule.
检测是当您取出一个糖分子，将其放入舌头中时发生的事情，然后一组特定的细胞就会感知到该糖分子。
That's detection.
这就是检测。
You haven't perceived anything yet.
你还没有察觉到任何事情。
That is just your cells in your tongue interacting with this chemical.
这只是舌头中的细胞与这种化学物质相互作用。
But now that cell gets activated and sends a signal to the brain, and now detection gets transformed into perception.
但现在细胞被激活并向大脑发送信号，现在检测转化为感知。
And it's trying to understand how that happens.
它正在试图了解这是如何发生的。
That's been the maniacal drive of my entire career in neuroscience.
这是我整个神经科学职业生涯的疯狂动力。
How does the brain ultimately transform detection into perception so that it can guide actions and behaviors?
大脑最终如何将检测转化为感知，从而指导行动和行为？
Does that make sense?
这有道理吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Absolutely, and it's a very clear and beautiful description.
当然，这是一个非常清晰和美丽的描述。
A sort of high-level question related to that-
与此相关的一种高级问题-
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and then I think we can get into some of the intermediate steps.
然后我认为我们可以进入一些中间步骤。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think many people would like to know whether or not my perception of the color of your shirt is the same as your perception of the color of your shirt.
我想很多人都想知道我对你衬衫颜色的看法是否与你对你衬衫颜色的看法相同。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
What an excellent question.
多么好的问题啊。
Am I okay to interrupt you as I'm guessing where you're going?
我正在猜测你要去哪里，我可以打断你吗？
All right, very good.
好的，非常好。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Interruption is welcome on this podcast.
欢迎打扰本播客。
The audience will always penalize me for interrupting you-
观众总会因为我打扰你而惩罚我——
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Good
好
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and will never penalize you for interrupting me.
并且永远不会因为你打扰我而惩罚你。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
I like the one-way penalizing.
我喜欢单向惩罚。
Now, given what I told you before, that the brain is trying to represent the world based on nothing but the transformation of these signals into electrical languages that now neurons have to encode and decode, it follows that your brain is different than my brain, and therefore it follows that the way that you're perceiving the world must be different than mine, even when receiving the same sensory cues.
现在，考虑到我之前告诉过你的，大脑试图仅基于将这些信号转换为神经元必须编码和解码的电语言来代表世界，因此你的大脑与我的大脑不同，因此你感知世界的方式也必须与我的不同，即使接收到相同的感官线索。
Okay?
好的？
And I'll tell you about an experiment, it's a simple experiment yet brilliant, that demonstrates how we perceive the world differently.
我会告诉你一个实验，这是一个简单但精彩的实验，它展示了我们如何以不同的方式感知世界。
So, in the world of vision, as you well know, we have three classes of photoreceptor neurons that sense three basic colors, red, blue, and green.
因此，在视觉世界中，正如您所知，我们有三类感光神经元，可以感知三种基本颜色：红色、蓝色和绿色。
Or blue, green, and red, if we go from short to long wavelength.
如果我们从短波长到长波长，或者蓝色、绿色和红色。
And these three are sufficient to accommodate the full visible spectra.
而这三者足以容纳完整的可见光谱。
I'm going to take three light projectors, and I'm going to project one into a wide screen, a red light, and the other one green light.
我将使用三台投影仪，将一台投影到宽屏幕上，一盏红灯，另一台绿灯。
I'm going to overlap the two beams, and on the screen it'll be yellow.
我将重叠两个光束，在屏幕上它会是黄色的。
Okay, this is the superposition when you have two beams of red and green.
好的，这就是两束红色和绿色光束的叠加。
And then I'm going to take a third projector, and I'm going to put a filter that projects right next to that mixed beam, a spectrally pure yellow.
然后我将采用第三台投影仪，并在混合光束（光谱纯黄色）旁边放置一个滤光片。
And I'm going to ask you to come to the red and green projectors and play with the intensity knobs so that you can match that yellow that you're projecting to the spectrally pure next to it.
我将请您来到红色和绿色投影仪并使用强度旋钮，以便您可以将投影的黄色与旁边的光谱纯相匹配。
Is this making sense?
这有道理吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Perfect sense.
完美的感觉。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
And I'm going to write down the numbers in those two volume intensity knobs.
我将记下这两个音量强度旋钮中的数字。
And then I'm going to ask the next person to do the same.
然后我会要求下一个人也这样做。
And then I'm going to ask every person around this area of Battery Park in New York to do the same.
然后我将要求纽约炮台公园这一地区的每个人也这样做。
And guess what?
你猜怎么着？
We're going to end up with thousands of different number combinations.
我们最终会得到数千种不同的数字组合。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Amazing.
太棒了。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So, for all of us, it's yellow enough that we can use a common language.
所以，对于我们所有人来说，它已经足够黄了，我们可以使用共同语言。
But for every one of us, that yellow is going to be ever so slightly different.
但对于我们每个人来说，黄色都会略有不同。
Okay?
好的？
And so I think that simple psychological experiment beautifully illustrates how we truly perceive the world differently.
所以我认为这个简单的心理实验很好地说明了我们如何真正以不同的方式感知世界。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I love that example, and yet in that example, we know the basic elements from which color is created.
我喜欢这个例子，但在那个例子中，我们知道创建颜色的基本元素。
If we migrate into a slightly different sense, let me pick a hard one.
如果我们转向一种稍微不同的感觉，让我选择一个困难的感觉。
Like-
就像-
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Sound
声音
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
sound or olfaction.
声音或嗅觉。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Very hard then to do an experiment that will allow us to get that degree of granularity and beautiful causality, where we can show that A produces and leads to B.
那么很难做一个实验来让我们获得那种程度的粒度和美丽的因果关系，在那里我们可以证明 A 产生并导致 B。
If I give you the smell of a rose, you can describe it to me.
如果我给你玫瑰的味道，你可以向我描述它。
If I smell the same rose, I can describe it also.
如果我闻到同样的玫瑰味，我也能描述它。
But I have no way of knowing whether the two of us are experiencing the same.
但我无从得知我们两个是否也有同样的经历。
But it's close enough that we can both pretty much say that it has the following features or other determinants.
但它足够接近，我们几乎可以说它具有以下特征或其他决定因素。
But no question that your experience is different than mine.
但毫无疑问，你的经历与我的不同。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The fact that it's good enough for us to both survive, that your perception of yellow and my perception of yellow, at least up until now, is good enough for us both to survive-
事实上，这足以让我们都生存下来，你对黄色的看法和我对黄色的看法，至少到目前为止，足以让我们都生存下去——
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
You got it
你明白了
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
raises a thought about a statement made by a colleague of ours, Marcus Meister, at Caltech.
提出了对我们加州理工学院同事马库斯·梅斯特 (Marcus Meister) 所作声明的思考。
He's never been on this podcast, but in a review that I read by Marcus at one point, he said that the basic function of perception is to divide our behavioral responses into the outcomes downstream of three basic emotional responses.
他从未参加过这个播客，但在我读到的马库斯的一篇评论中，他说感知的基本功能是将我们的行为反应分为三种基本情绪反应下游的结果。
Yum, I like it.
嗯，我喜欢它。
Yuck, I hate it.
哎呀，我讨厌它。
Or meh, whatever.
或者嗯，无论如何。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What do you think about-- I'm not looking to establish a debate between you and Marcus without Marcus here.
你觉得怎么样——我不想在没有马库斯在场的情况下在你和马库斯之间进行辩论。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
I understand.
我明白了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But what I like about that is that it seems like we know the brain is a very economical organ in some sense, despite its high metabolic demands And this variation in perception from one individual to the next at once seems like a problem because we're all literally seeing different things, and yet we function.
但我喜欢的是，我们似乎知道大脑在某种意义上是一个非常经济的器官，尽管它的新陈代谢需求很高。而且这种从一个人到另一个人的感知差异似乎是一个问题，因为我们实际上都看到了不同的事物，但我们却在发挥作用。
We function well enough for most of us to avoid-
我们的功能足够好，以至于我们大多数人都可以避免-
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
death and cliffs and eating poisons and so forth, and to enjoy some aspects of life, one hopes.
死亡、悬崖、吃毒药等等，以及享受生活的某些方面，是一个人的希望。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So is there a general statement that we can make about the brain, not just as an organ to generate perception, not just as an organ to keep us alive, but also an organ that is trying to batch our behaviors into general categories of outcome?
那么，我们是否可以对大脑做出一个一般性的陈述，它不仅是一个产生感知的器官，不仅是一个让我们生存的器官，而且还是一个试图将我们的行为归入一般结果类别的器官？
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
I think so.
我想是的。
But again, I think the world of Marcus too, and I think he's right that broadly speaking, you could categorize a lot of behaviors falling into these true categories, and that's 100% likely to be the case for animals in the wild, where the choices are not necessarily binary, but they're very unique and distinct.
但同样，我认为马库斯的世界也是如此，我认为他是对的，从广义上讲，你可以将很多行为归入这些真正的类别，对于野生动物来说，100%可能是这种情况，其中的选择不一定是二元的，但它们是非常独特和独特的。
Do I want to eat this?
我想吃这个吗？
Do I want to kill that?
我想杀掉它吗？
Do I want to go there, or do I want to go here?
我想去那里，还是想去这里？
We humans deviated from that world long ago and learned to experience life where we do things that we should not be doing.
我们人类很久以前就脱离了那个世界，学会了体验生活，做我们不应该做的事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Some of us more than others.
我们中的一些人比其他人更多。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
In my own world of taste, the likelihood that an animal in the wild will enjoy eating something bitter, it's inconceivable.
在我自己的味觉世界里，野生动物喜欢吃苦的东西的可能性是不可思议的。
Yet we love tonic water.
然而我们喜欢汤力水。
We like living on the edge.
我们喜欢生活在边缘。
We love enjoying experiences.
我们喜欢享受体验。
That makes us human, and that goes beyond that simple set of categories, which is yummy, yucky, eh, who cares?
这使我们成为人类，并且超越了那组简单的类别，即美味，令人厌恶，呃，谁在乎呢？
And so I think it's not a bad palate, but I think it's overly reductionist for certainly what we humans do.
所以我认为这并不是一个糟糕的口味，但我认为这对于我们人类所做的事情来说过于简化了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I agree, and since we're here in New York, I can say that the many options, the extensive variety of food, flora, and fauna in New York explains a lot of the more nuanced behaviors that we observe.
我同意，而且既然我们在纽约，我可以说纽约的众多选择、种类繁多的食物、动植物解释了我们观察到的许多更微妙的行为。
Let's talk about taste because although you've done extensive work in the field of vision, and it's a topic that I love, we could spend all day on, taste is fascinating.
让我们来谈谈品味，因为虽然你在视觉领域做了广泛的工作，而且这是我喜欢的话题，我们可以花一整天的时间，但品味是令人着迷的。
First of all, I'd like to know why you migrated from studying vision to studying taste, and perhaps in that description, you could highlight to us why we should think about and how we should think about this sense of taste.
首先，我想知道您为什么从研究视觉转向研究味觉，也许在那个描述中，您可以向我们强调为什么我们应该思考这种味觉以及我们应该如何思考这种味觉。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
My goal has always been to understand, as I highlighted before, how the brain does its magic.
正如我之前强调的那样，我的目标始终是了解大脑如何发挥其魔力。
What part, you might wonder.
您可能想知道哪个部分。
Ideally, I like to help contribute to understand all of it.
理想情况下，我喜欢帮助理解这一切。
How do you encode and decode emotions?
你如何编码和解码情绪？
How do you encode and decode memories and actions?
你如何编码和解码记忆和动作？
How do you make decisions?
你如何做决定？
How do you transform detection into perception?
如何将检测转化为感知？
And the list goes on and on.
这样的例子不胜枚举。
But one of the key things in science, as you know, is ensuring that you always ask the right question so that you have a possibility of answering it.
但正如您所知，科学的关键之一是确保您始终提出正确的问题，以便您有可能回答它。
Because if the question cannot be tractable or reduced to an experimental path that helps you resolve it, then we end up doing some really fun science, but not necessarily answering the important problem that we want to study.
因为如果问题无法处理或简化为帮助您解决问题的实验路径，那么我们最终会做一些非常有趣的科学，但不一定能回答我们想要研究的重要问题。
Make sense?
有道理吗？
All right.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
From a first-person perspective, yes.
从第一人称视角来看，是的。
The hardest question, the most important question is what question are you going to try and answer?
最难的问题，最重要的问题是你要尝试回答什么问题？
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
You got it.
你明白了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Sure.
当然。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
And so, for example, I would love to understand the neural basis of empathy.
例如，我很想了解同理心的神经基础。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There's a big market for that.
这有很大的市场。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
100%.
100%。
But I wouldn't even know, at the molecular level, that's what we do.
但我什至不知道，在分子水平上，这就是我们所做的。
How do the circuits in your brain create that sense?
你大脑中的回路是如何产生这种感觉的？
I have no clue how to do it.
我不知道该怎么做。
I can come up with ways to think about it, but I like to understand what in your brain makes someone a great philanthropist.
我可以想出一些方法来思考这个问题，但我喜欢了解你大脑中的什么因素使某人成为伟大的慈善家。
What is the neural basis of love?
爱的神经基础是什么？
I wouldn't even know where to begin.
我什至不知道从哪里开始。
So if I want to begin to study these questions about brain function that can cover so many aspects of the brain, I need to choose a problem that affords me that window, but in a way that I can ask questions that give me answers.
因此，如果我想开始研究这些关于大脑功能的问题，这些问题可以涵盖大脑的许多方面，我需要选择一个为我提供这个窗口的问题，但以一种我可以提出问题并给我答案的方式。
And among the senses that have the capacity of transforming detection into perception, of being stored as memories, of creating emotions, of giving you different actions and perceptions as a function of the internal state.
感官具有将探测转化为感知的能力，能够存储为记忆，能够创造情感，能够根据内部状态给你不同的行动和感知。
When you're hungry, things taste very differently than when you're sated.
当你饥饿时，食物的味道与你饱足时的味道非常不同。
How?
如何？
Why?
为什么？
When you taste something, you now remember this amazing meal you had with your first date.
当你品尝某样东西时，你现在会想起第一次约会时吃的这顿美味佳肴。
How does that happen?
这是怎么发生的？
All right.
好的。
So, if I want to begin to explore all of these things that the brain does, I felt I have to choose a sensory system that affords some degree of simplicity in the way that the input-output relationships are put together, and in a way that still can be used to ask every one of these problems that the brain has to ultimately compute, encode, and decode.
因此，如果我想开始探索大脑所做的所有这些事情，我觉得我必须选择一种感觉系统，该系统在输入输出关系组合在一起的方式上提供一定程度的简单性，并且仍然可以用来询问大脑最终必须计算、编码和解码的每一个问题。
And what was remarkable about the taste system at the time that I began working on this is that nothing was known about the molecular basis of taste.
当我开始研究味觉系统时，人们对味觉的分子基础一无所知。
We knew that we could taste what has been usually defined as the five basic taste qualities, sweet, sour, bitter, salty, and umami.
我们知道我们可以品尝到通常定义的五种基本味觉品质：甜、酸、苦、咸和鲜。
Umami is a Japanese word that means yummy, delicious, and that's in nearly every animal species, the taste of amino acids.
鲜味是一个日语单词，意思是美味、可口，几乎所有动物物种都有氨基酸的味道。
And in humans, it's mostly associated with the taste of MSG, monosodium glutamate, one amino acid in particular.
对于人类来说，它主要与味精、味精、尤其是一种氨基酸的味道有关。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What are, just by way of example-
举例来说，是什么？
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
some foods that are rich in the umami evoking stimulation?
一些富含鲜味刺激的食物？
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Seaweed, tomatoes, cheese.
海藻、西红柿、奶酪。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
And it's a great flavor enhancer.
它是一种很好的增味剂。
It enriches our sensory experience.
它丰富了我们的感官体验。
And so the beautiful thing of the system is that the lines of input are limited to five.
因此，该系统的美妙之处在于输入行数被限制为五行。
Sweet, sour, bitter, salty, and umami, and each of them has a predetermined meaning.
甜、酸、苦、咸、鲜，每种都有预定的含义。
You are born liking sugar and disliking bitter.
你生来就喜欢糖，讨厌苦。
You have no choice.
你别无选择。
These are hard wire systems.
这些是硬线系统。
But of course, you can learn to dislike sugar and to like bitters.
当然，你可以学会不喜欢糖而喜欢苦味。
But in the wild, let's take humans out of the equation, these are 100% predetermined.
但在野外，我们把人类排除在外，这些都是 100% 预先确定的。
You're born with that specific valence value for each taste.
你生来就具有每种口味的特定价值。
Sweet, umami, and low salt are attractive taste qualities.
甜、鲜味和低盐是有吸引力的口味品质。
They evoke appetitive responses.
它们会引起食欲反应。
I want to consume them.
我想吃掉它们。
And bitter and sour are innately predetermined to be aversive.
而苦味和酸味天生就让人厌恶。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Could I interrupt you just briefly-
我可以简单地打断一下你吗——
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and ask a question about that exact point?
并就这一点提出问题？
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
For something to be appetitive to, and some other taste to be aversive, and for those to be hardwired, can we assume that the sensation of very bitter or of activation of bitter receptors in the mouth activates a neural circuit that causes closing of the mouth, retraction of the tongue, and retraction of the body, and that the taste of something sweet might actually induce more licking?
对于某些令人垂涎的东西，而另一些味道令人厌恶，以及那些天生的味道，我们是否可以假设，非常苦的感觉或口腔中苦味受体的激活会激活神经回路，导致嘴巴闭上，舌头缩回，身体缩回，而甜味的味道实际上可能会引起更多的舔舐？
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
100%.
100%。
You got it.
你明白了。
The activation of the receptors in the tongue that recognize sweet versus the ones that recognize bitter activate an entire behavioral program.
舌头上识别甜味的受体与识别苦味的受体的激活会激活整个行为程序。
And that program that we can refer as appetitiveness or aversion, it's composed of many different subroutines.
我们可以将这个程序称为食欲或厌恶，它由许多不同的子例程组成。
In the case of bitter, it's very easy to actually look and see them happening in animals because the first thing you do is you stop licking, then you put a unhappy face, then you squint your eyes, and then you start gagging.
就苦味而言，很容易在动物身上看到它们发生的情况，因为你做的第一件事就是停止舔，然后摆出一张不高兴的脸，然后眯起眼睛，然后开始作呕。
And that entire thing happens by the activation of a bitter molecule in a bitter sensing cell in your tongue.
整个过程是通过激活舌头苦味感受细胞中的苦味分子而发生的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's incredible.
太不可思议了。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
It's again, the magic of the brain, how it's able to encode and decode these extraordinary actions and behaviors in response of nothing but a simple, very unique sensory stimuli.
这又是大脑的魔力，它如何能够编码和解码这些非凡的动作和行为，只对简单、非常独特的感官刺激做出反应。
Now, let me say that this palate of five basic tastes accommodates all the dietary needs of the organism.
现在，让我说，这种五种基本口味的味觉满足了有机体的所有饮食需求。
Sweet, to ensure that we get the right amount of energy.
甜蜜，确保我们获得适量的能量。
Umami, to ensure that we get proteins, another essential nutrient.
鲜味，确保我们获得另一种必需营养素蛋白质。
Salt, the three appetitive ones to ensure that we maintain our electrolyte balance.
盐，是确保我们维持电解质平衡的三种食欲盐。
Bitter, to prevent the ingestion of toxic, nauseous chemicals.
苦，防止摄入有毒、令人作呕的化学物质。
Nearly all bitter-tasting things out in the wild are bad for you.
野外几乎所有苦味的东西都对你有害。
And sour, most likely to prevent ingestion of spoiled acid, fermented foods.
而酸味，最有可能防止摄入变质的酸、发酵食品。
And that's it.
就是这样。
That is the palate that we deal with.
这就是我们要处理的味觉。
Now, of course, there's a difference between basic taste and flavor.
当然，基本味道和风味之间是有区别的。
Flavor is the whole experience.
味道就是整个体验。
Flavor is the combination of multiple tastes coming together, together with smell, with texture, with temperature, with the look of it, that gives you what you and I would call the full sensory experience.
风味是多种味道的结合，包括气味、质地、温度、外观，给你我所谓的完整的感官体验。
But we scientists need to reduce the problem into its basic elements so we can begin to break it apart before we put it back together.
但我们科学家需要将问题简化为其基本要素，以便我们可以在将其重新组合在一起之前开始将其分解。
So when we think about the sense of taste, and we try to figure out how these lines of information go from your tongue to your brain, and how they signal and how they get integrated, and how they trigger all these different behaviors We look at them as individual qualities.
因此，当我们思考味觉时，我们试图弄清楚这些信息线如何从你的舌头传递到你的大脑，它们如何发出信号，如何整合，以及它们如何触发所有这些不同的行为，我们将它们视为个体品质。
So we give the animal sweet, or we give them a bitter, we give them sour.
所以我们给动物甜的，或者我们给他们苦的，我们给他们酸的。
We avoid mixes because the first stage of discovery is to have that clarity as to what you're trying to extract so that you can hopefully meaningfully make a difference by being able to figure out how is it that A goes to B to C and to D.
我们避免混合，因为发现的第一阶段是清楚地了解您想要提取的内容，以便您能够通过弄清楚 A 是如何到达 B 到 C 和 D 的，从而有望做出有意义的改变。
Does this make sense?
这有道理吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Almost like the primary colors to create the full array of the color spectrum.
几乎就像原色一样，可以创建完整的色谱阵列。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Before I ask you about the first and second and third stages of taste and flavor perception-
在我问你关于味觉和风味感知的第一、第二和第三阶段之前——
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
is there any idea that there may be more than five?
是否有任何想法可能超过五个？
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
There is.
有。
For example, what about fat?
例如，脂肪呢？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I love the taste.
我喜欢这个味道。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Oh, you love fat, too.
哦，你也爱胖子。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I love the texture of fat, especially if it's slightly burnt.
我喜欢脂肪的质地，尤其是稍微烧焦的脂肪。
In South America, when I visited Buenos Aires, I found that at the end of a meal, they would take a steak, the trimming off the edge of the steak, burn it slightly, and then serve it back to me, and I thought, "That's disgusting." And then I tasted it, and it's delightful.
在南美洲，当我访问布宜诺斯艾利斯时，我发现在用餐结束时，他们会拿一块牛排，把牛排的边缘切掉，稍微烧一下，然后再端给我，我想，“这太恶心了。”然后我尝了尝，真是令人愉快。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
It is.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There's nothing quite like it.
没有什么比这更好的了。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
This goes back to this notion before that we like to live on the edge.
这又回到了我们喜欢生活在边缘的观念。
And we like to do things that we should not be doing, Andrew.
我们喜欢做我们不应该做的事情，安德鲁。
But on the other hand, look at those muscles.
但另一方面，看看那些肌肉。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I don't suggest anyone eat pure fat.
我不建议任何人吃纯脂肪。
The listeners of this podcast will immediately...
该播客的听众将立即...
I'm sure there'll be a YouTube video soon that I like eating pure fat.
我相信很快就会有一个 YouTube 视频显示我喜欢吃纯脂肪。
I'm not on a ketogenic diet, et cetera.
我没有进行生酮饮食等等。
But fat is tasty.
但脂肪很好吃。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
It is.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
As evidenced by the obesity problem that exists in this country.
这个国家存在的肥胖问题就证明了这一点。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
We'll talk about that in a little bit about the gut-brain axis.
我们将稍微讨论一下肠脑轴。
I think it'll be important to cover it because it's the other side of the taste system.
我认为覆盖它很重要，因为它是味觉系统的另一面。
And so missing taste, one is fat.
如此缺味，一是肥。
Although, like you clearly highlighted, a lot of fat taste, in quotation marks, is really the feeling of fat rolling on your tongue.
虽然，就像你明确强调的，很多脂肪的味道，在引号里，确实是脂肪在舌头上滚动的感觉。
And so there is a compelling argument that a lot of what we call fat taste is really mechanosensory, is somatosensory cells.
因此，有一个令人信服的论点，即我们所谓的脂肪味实际上是机械感觉，是体感细胞。
Cells that are not responding to taste, but they're responding to mechanical stimulation of fat molecules rolling on the tongue that gives you that perception of fat.
细胞对味觉没有反应，但它们对在舌头上滚动的脂肪分子的机械刺激做出反应，从而让你感觉到脂肪。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I love the idea that there is a perception of fat, regardless of whether or not there's a dedicated receptor for fat.
我喜欢这样的想法：无论是否存在专门的脂肪受体，都会对脂肪产生感知。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
You got it.
你明白了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mostly because it's evoking sensations and imagery of the taste of slightly burnt fat.
主要是因为它能唤起人们对轻微燃烧的脂肪味道的感觉和想象。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
For example.
例如。
And another one you could argue is metallic taste.
您可能会争论的另一个问题是金属味。
I know exactly what it tastes like.
我很清楚那是什么味道。
If you ask me to explain it, I will have a hard time.
如果你让我解释一下，我会很难的。
What are the palettes of that color that can allow me to define it?
可以让我定义该颜色的调色板是什么？
It wouldn't be easy, but I know precisely what it tastes like.
这并不容易，但我很清楚它的味道。
Take a penny, put it in your mouth, and you know what it tastes like, yeah?
拿一分钱，放进嘴里，你就知道它是什么味道，是吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or blood.
或血。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Or blood.
或血。
That's another very good example.
这是另一个非常好的例子。
And is there really a receptor for metallic taste, or it's nothing but this magical combination of the activation of the existing lines?
是否真的存在金属味的受体，或者只是现有线路激活的神奇组合？
Think of it as lines of information, separate lines.
将其视为信息线、单独的线。
Like the keys of a piano, yeah?
就像钢琴的琴键一样，是吗？
Sweet, sour, bitter, salty, umami.
甜、酸、苦、咸、鲜。
You play the key, and you activate the one chord, and that one chord, in the case of a piano, leads to a note, a tune, and in the case of taste, leads to an action and a behavior.
你弹奏琴键，激活一个和弦，对于钢琴来说，这个和弦会产生一个音符、一首曲子，而对于品味来说，这个和弦会导致一种动作和行为。
But you play many of them together, and something emerges that it's different than any one of the pieces.
但是当你将其中许多作品放在一起演奏时，就会发现它与任何一首作品都不同。
And it's possible that metallic, for example, represents the combination of the activity just in the right ratio-
例如，金属可能代表了以正确比例组合的活性——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Makes sense
有道理
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
...
...
of these other lines.
这些其他线路。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Makes sense.
有道理。
And it actually provides a perfect, your example of the piano provides a perfect segue for what I'd like to touch on next, which is if you would describe the sequence of neural events-
它实际上提供了一个完美的，你的钢琴例子为我接下来要谈的内容提供了一个完美的延续，也就是说，如果你能描述神经事件的顺序——
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
leading to a perceptual event of taste.
导致味觉的感知事件。
And I'm certain that somewhere in there, you will embed an answer to the question of whether or not we indeed have different taste receptors distributed in different locations on our tongue-
我确信在那里的某个地方，你会嵌入一个问题的答案：我们是否确实有不同的味觉感受器分布在我们舌头上的不同位置——
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
or elsewhere in the mouth.
或口腔其他部位。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Yes.
是的。
So let's start by debunking that old tale and myth.
因此，让我们首先揭穿这个古老的故事和神话。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Who came up with that?
谁想出来的？
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
There are many views, but the most prevalent is that there was an original drawing describing the sensitivity of the tongue to different tastes.
有很多观点，但最普遍的是有一幅原始图画描述了舌头对不同味道的敏感性。
So imagine I can take a Q-tip.
所以想象一下我可以拿一根棉签。
This is a thought experiment, yeah?
这是一个思想实验，是吗？
And I'm going to dip that Q-tip in salt and in quinine as something bitter, and glucose as something sweet.
我要把棉签浸入盐和奎宁中（苦味），葡萄糖（甜味）。
And I'm going to take that Q-tip, ask you to stick your tongue out, and start moving it around your tongue and ask you, "What do you feel?" And then I'm going to change the concentration of the amount of salt or the amount of bitter and ask, "Can I get some sort of a map of sensitivity to the different tastes?" And the argument that has emerged is that there is a good likelihood that the data was simply mistranslated as it was being drawn.
我将拿起棉签，请你伸出舌头，然后开始在你的舌头周围移动，然后问你，“你有什么感觉？”然后我要改变盐的浓度或苦味的浓度，并问：“我可以获得某种对不同口味的敏感性图吗？”出现的论点是，数据很可能只是在绘制时被误译了。
And of course, that led to an entire industry.
当然，这催生了整个行业。
This is the way you maximize your wine experience, because now we're going to form the vessel that you're going to drink from so that it acts maximally on the receptors which happen.
这是最大化您的葡萄酒体验的方式，因为现在我们将形成您要饮用的容器，以便它最大限度地作用于发生的受体。
All right.
好的。
Now, there is no tongue map.
现在，没有舌头图。
All right?
好的？
We have taste buds distributed in various parts of the tongue, so there is a map on the distribution of taste buds.
我们的味蕾分布在舌头的各个部位，所以有一张味蕾分布图。
But each taste bud has around 100 taste receptor cells, and those taste receptor cells can be of five types.
但每个味蕾大约有 100 个味觉感受器细胞，这些味觉感受器细胞可以分为五种类型。
Sweet, sour, bitter, salty, or umami.
甜、酸、苦、咸或鲜。
And for the most part, all taste buds have the representation of all five taste qualities.
在大多数情况下，所有味蕾都代表所有五种味觉品质。
Now, there is no question that there is a slight bias for some tastes.
现在，毫无疑问，某些口味存在轻微的偏见。
Like bitter is particularly enrich at the very back of your tongue, and there is a teleological basis for that, actually a biological basis for that.
就像苦味在你舌头的后部特别丰富一样，这是有目的论基础的，实际上是有生物学基础的。
That's the last line of defense before you swallow something bad.
这是你吞下坏东西之前的最后一道防线。
And so let's make sure that the very back of your tongue has plenty of these bad news receptors, so that if they get activated, you can trigger a gagging reflex and get rid of this that otherwise may kill you.
因此，让我们确保你的舌头后部有大量的坏消息受体，这样，如果它们被激活，你就可以触发呕吐反射，并摆脱它，否则可能会杀死你。
Okay?
好的？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Makes good sense.
有道理。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
But the notion that all sweet is in the front and salt is on the side, it's not real.
但“甜在前、盐在侧”的观念是不真实的。
And they're...
而他们是...
Go ahead.
继续吧。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, I was just going to ask, first of all, thank you for dispelling that myth.
哦，我只是想问，首先，谢谢你消除了这个神话。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And we will propagate that information as far and wide as we can, because I think that's the number one myth related to taste.
我们将尽可能广泛地传播这些信息，因为我认为这是与品味相关的第一个神话。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The other one is, are there taste receptors anywhere else in the mouth?
另一个问题是，口腔其他地方有味觉感受器吗？
For instance, on the lips?
例如，在嘴唇上？
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
The palate.
味觉。
Not the lips.
不是嘴唇。
So it's in the pharynx at the very back of the oral cavity, the tongue, and the palate.
所以它位于口腔、舌头和上颚最后部的咽部。
And the palate is very rich in sweet receptors.
味觉中的甜味感受器非常丰富。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hmm.
嗯。
I'll have to pay attention to this the next time I eat something sweet.
下次吃甜食的时候一定要注意这一点。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
When you pull it up.
当你把它拉起来的时候。
Yeah?
是的？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Now, the important thing is that after the receptors for these five, the detectors, the molecules that sense sweet, sour, bitter, salt, umami, these are receptors, proteins found on the surface of taste receptor cells that interact with these chemicals.
现在，重要的是，在这五种受体之后，检测器，感知甜、酸、苦、盐、鲜味的分子，这些是受体，是在味觉受体细胞表面发现的与这些化学物质相互作用的蛋白质。
And once they interact, then they trigger the cascade of events, biochemical events inside the cell that now sends an electrical signal that says, "There is sweet here," or, "There is salt here." Now, having these receptors, and my laboratory identify the receptors for all five basic taste classes, sweet, bitter, salt, umami, and most recently sour, now completing the palate, you can now use these receptors to really map where are they found in the tongue in a very rigorous way.
一旦它们相互作用，就会触发一连串的事件，细胞内的生化事件现在会发出一个电信号，说“这里有甜的”或“这里有盐”。现在，有了这些受体，我的实验室识别了所有五种基本味觉类别（甜味、苦味、咸味、鲜味和最近的酸味）的受体，现在完成了味觉，您现在可以使用这些受体以非常严格的方式真正绘制它们在舌头中的位置。
This is no longer about using a Q-tip and trying to figure out what you're feeling, but rather what you have in your tongue.
这不再是使用棉签并试图弄清楚你的感受，而是你舌头上有什么。
This is not a guess.
这不是猜测。
This is now a physical map that says the sweet receptors are found here, the bitter are found here, and when you do that, you find that in fact, every taste bud throughout your oral cavity has receptors for all of the basic taste classes.
现在这是一张物理图，上面写着在这里找到了甜味受体，在这里找到了苦味受体，当你这样做时，你会发现事实上，整个口腔的每个味蕾都有所有基本味觉类别的受体。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Amazing.
太棒了。
And as it turns out, and I'm sure you'll tell us, important in terms of thinking about how the brain computes, encodes, and decodes this thing we call taste.
事实证明，我相信你会告诉我们，这对于思考大脑如何计算、编码和解码我们称之为味觉的东西很重要。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm going to inject a quick question that I'm sure is on many people's minds before we get back into the biological circuit, which is, many people, including myself, are familiar with the experience of drinking a sip of tea or coffee that is too hot.
在我们回到生物回路之前，我要提出一个我确信很多人都在想的问题，即，包括我自己在内的许多人都熟悉喝一口太热的茶或咖啡的体验。
And burning my tongue is the way I would describe it.
我会用“灼烧我的舌头”来形容它。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Horrible.
太可怕了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Horrible, and then disrupting my sense of taste for some period of time afterward.
太可怕了，然后在一段时间内扰乱了我的味觉。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
When I experience that phenomenon, that unfortunate phenomenon, have I destroyed taste receptors that regenerate, or have I somehow used temperature to distort the function of the circuit so that I no longer taste the way I did before?
当我经历那种现象，那种不幸的现象时，我是否破坏了再生的味觉感受器，或者我是否以某种方式利用温度扭曲了电路的功能，使我不再像以前那样品尝味道？
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Excellent question, and the answer is both.
很好的问题，答案是两者兼而有之。
It turns out that your taste receptors only live for around two weeks.
事实证明，你的味觉感受器只能存活两周左右。
And this, by the way, makes sense because here you have an organ, the tongue, that is continuously exposed to everything you could range from the nicest to the most horrible possible things.
顺便说一句，这是有道理的，因为这里有一个器官，即舌头，它不断地暴露于一切可能的事物中，从最好的事物到最可怕的事物。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Use your imagination.
发挥你的想象力。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
And so you need to make sure that these cells are always coming back in a way that I can re-experience the world in the right way.
所以你需要确保这些细胞总是以一种让我能够以正确的方式重新体验世界的方式回来。
And there are other organs that have the same underlying logic, okay?
还有其他器官具有相同的基本逻辑，好吗？
Your gut, your intestines are the same way.
你的肠道，你的肠子也是一样的。
Yeah, amazing.
是的，太棒了。
Again, they are receiving everything that you ingest, God forbid what's there, from the spiciest to the most horrible tasting, to the most delicious.
再说一次，他们正在接受你摄入的一切，上帝禁止那里有什么，从最辣的到最难吃的，再到最美味的。
And again, those intestinal cells whose role is to ultimately take all these nutrients and bring them into the body, also renewal in a very, very fast cycle.
再说一遍，那些肠道细胞的作用是最终吸收所有这些营养物质并将它们带入体内，并且以非常非常快的周期进行更新。
Okay?
好的？
Olfactory neurons in your nose is the other example So then A, yes, you're burning a lot of your cells, and it's over for those.
鼻子中的嗅觉神经元是另一个例子那么A，是的，你正在燃烧很多细胞，那些细胞就结束了。
The good news is that they're going to come back.
好消息是他们会回来的。
But we know that when you burn your cells with tea, they come back within 20 minutes, 30 minutes, an hour.
但我们知道，当你用茶燃烧细胞时，它们会在 20 分钟、30 分钟、1 小时内恢复。
And these cells are not renewing in that timeframe.
并且这些细胞在该时间范围内不会更新。
They're not listening to your needs.
他们没有倾听你的需求。
They have their own internal clock.
他们有自己的内部时钟。
Okay?
好的？
And so you are really affecting, you're damaging them in a way that they can recover, and then they come back, and you also damage your somatosensory cells.
所以你确实在影响，你以一种可以恢复的方式损害它们，然后它们又回来了，你也损害了你的体感细胞。
These are the cells that feel things, not taste things.
这些是感受事物的细胞，而不是品尝事物的细胞。
Okay?
好的？
And then you wait half an hour or so, and then, my goodness, thank God, it's back to normal.
然后你等了半个小时左右，然后，天哪，感谢上帝，一切又恢复正常了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
And most of the time, I don't even notice the transition, realizing, as you told me.
大多数时候，我什至没有注意到这种转变，意识到，正如你告诉我的那样。
And later I'll ask you about the relationship between odor and taste.
稍后我会问你气味和味道之间的关系。
But as a next step along this circuit, let's assume I ingest some, let's keep it simple, a sweet taste.
但作为这个循环的下一步，让我们假设我摄入了一些，让我们保持简单，甜味。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Let's make it even simpler, but at the same time, perhaps more informative.
让我们让它变得更简单，但同时也许提供更多信息。
Let's compare and contrast sweet and bitter as we follow their lines from the tongue to the brain.
让我们沿着从舌头到大脑的路线来比较和对比甜味和苦味。
So the first thing is that the two evoke diametrically opposed behaviors.
所以首先，两者会引发截然相反的行为。
If we have to come up with two sensory experience that represent polar opposites, it will be sweet and bitter.
如果我们必须拿出两种代表截然相反的感官体验，那就是甜与苦。
There are no two colors that represent polar opposites because you could say black and white, they are polar opposites.
没有两种颜色代表截然相反的颜色，因为你可以说黑色和白色，它们是截然相反的。
One detects only one thing, the other one detects everything.
一个只检测到一件事，另一个检测到一切。
But they don't evoke different behaviors.
但它们不会引发不同的行为。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Even political parties have some overlap.
甚至政党也有一些重叠。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Sweet and bitter are the two opposite ends of the sensory spectra.
甜味和苦味是感官光谱的两端。
Now, a taste can be defined by two features.
现在，品味可以由两个特征来定义。
Again, I'm a reductionist, so I'm reducing it in a way that I think is easier to follow the signal.
再说一次，我是一个还原论者，所以我以一种我认为更容易遵循信号的方式来还原它。
And the two features are its quality and its valence.
这两个特征就是它的质量和它的价。
And valence, with a little V, that's what we say in Spanish, with a V, means the value of that experience.
效价，带有一点V，这就是我们在西班牙语中所说的，带有V，意味着该体验的价值。
All right?
好的？
Or in this case, of that stimuli.
或者在这种情况下，是那种刺激。
And you take sweet, sweet has a quality, an identity, and that's what you and I will refer to as the taste of sweet.
你拿甜食来说，甜食有一种品质、一种身份，这就是你我所说的甜食的味道。
We know exactly what it tastes like.
我们确切地知道它的味道。
But sweet also has a positive valence, which makes it incredibly attractive and appetitive.
但甜味也具有正价，这使得它具有难以置信的吸引力和食欲。
But it's attractive and appetitive, as I'll tell you in a second, independent of its identity and quality.
但正如我稍后会告诉你的那样，它具有吸引力和吸引力，与它的身份和质量无关。
In fact, we have been able to engineer animals where we completely remove the valence from the stimuli, so these animals can taste sweet, can recognize it as sweet, but it's no longer attractive.
事实上，我们已经能够对动物进行改造，完全消除刺激物的价态，因此这些动物可以尝到甜味，可以识别出它是甜的，但它不再有吸引力。
It's just one more chemical stimuli.
这只是又一种化学刺激。
And that's because the identity and the valence are encoded in two separate parts of the brain.
这是因为同一性和价态是在大脑的两个不同部分编码的。
In the case of bitter, again, it has, on the one hand, its identity, its quality, and you know exactly what bitter tastes like.
就苦味而言，一方面，它有它的特性、它的品质，而且你确切地知道苦味是什么样的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I can taste it now, even as you describe it.
我现在就能尝到它的味道，就像你所描述的那样。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
But it also has a valence, and that's a negative valence because it evokes aversive behaviors.
但它也有一个价，这是一个负价，因为它会引起厌恶行为。
Are we on?
我们在吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
All right.
好吧。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it comes to mind, I remember telling some kids recently that we're going to go get ice cream, and it was interesting, they looked up, and they started smacking their lip.
我想起了，我记得最近告诉一些孩子我们要去买冰淇淋，这很有趣，他们抬起头来，然后开始咂嘴。
They'll actually evoke the-
他们实际上会唤起——
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
The anticipatory response.
预期反应。
Absolutely.
绝对地。
Yeah.
是的。
When we talk about the gut brain, maybe we'll get there.
当我们谈论肠道大脑时，也许我们会到达那里。
So then the signals, if we follow now these two lines, they're really like two separate keys at the two ends of this keyboard.
那么信号，如果我们现在遵循这两行，它们实际上就像键盘两端的两个单独的键。
And you press one key, and you activate this cord, so you activate the sweet cells throughout your oral cavity, and they all converge into a group of sweet neurons in the next station, which is still outside the brain.
你按下一个键，你就激活了这条绳索，这样你就激活了整个口腔的甜味细胞，它们全部汇聚成下一站的一组甜味神经元，而下一站仍然在大脑之外。
It's one of the taste ganglia.
它是味觉神经节之一。
These are the neurons that innervate your tongue and the oral cavity.
这些是支配舌头和口腔的神经元。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Where do they sit, approximately?
他们大约坐在哪里？
Are they-
他们是——
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Around there.
在那儿附近。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Right here, around the lymph nodes, more or less.
就在这里，或多或少，在淋巴结周围。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
You got it.
你明白了。
And there are two main ganglia that innervate the vast majority of all taste buds in the oral cavity.
有两个主要的神经节支配着口腔中绝大多数的味蕾。
And then from there, that sweet signal goes on to the brain stem.
然后从那里，那个甜蜜的信号就会传递到脑干。
The brain stem is the entry of the body into the brain.
脑干是身体进入大脑的入口。
And there are different areas of the brain stem, and there are different groups of neurons in the brain stem, and there's this unique area in a unique topographically defined location in the rostral side of the brain stem that receives all of the taste input.
脑干有不同的区域，脑干中有不同的神经元组，在脑干的嘴侧一个独特的地形定义位置有一个独特的区域，它接收所有的味觉输入。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
A very dense area of the brain.
大脑中非常密集的区域。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
A very rich area of the brain.
大脑的一个非常丰富的区域。
Exactly.
确切地。
And from there, the sweet signal goes to this other area higher up on the brain stem, and then it goes through a number of stations Where that sweet signal goes from sweet neuron, to sweet neuron, to sweet neuron, to eventually get to your cortex.
从那里，甜蜜信号到达脑干较高的另一个区域，然后它经过许多站，在那里甜蜜信号从甜蜜神经元，到甜蜜神经元，再到甜蜜神经元，最终到达你的皮层。
And once it gets to your taste cortex, that's where meaning is imposed into that signal.
一旦它到达你的味觉皮层，信号就被赋予了意义。
It's then, and only then, this is what the data suggests, that now you can identify this as a sweet stimuli.
直到那时，也只有到那时，这就是数据所表明的，现在您可以将其识别为甜蜜的刺激。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And how quickly does that all happen?
这一切发生的速度有多快？
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
The timescale of the nervous system, it's fast, yeah?
神经系统的时间尺度，很快，是吗？
And so-
所以——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Within less than a second.
不到一秒的时间。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Absolutely, yeah.
绝对是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I rarely mistake bitter for sweet.
我很少把苦当成甜。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Maybe with respect to people and my own poor judgment, but-
也许是出于对人和我自己糟糕的判断力的尊重，但是——
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
But no, you-
但不，你——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But not with respect to taste.
但就口味而言则不然。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
And in fact, we can demonstrate this because we can stick electrodes at each of these stations conceptually, and we can stimulate the tongue, and then we can record the signals pretty much time lock to stimulus delivery.
事实上，我们可以证明这一点，因为我们可以在概念上将电极粘贴在每个站上，并且我们可以刺激舌头，然后我们可以记录信号几乎与刺激传递时间锁定。
You deliver the stimuli, and within a fraction of a second, you see now the response in these following stations.
您发出刺激后，不到一秒的时间，您就会看到以下站点的响应。
Now it gets to the cortex.
现在它到达了皮质。
And now in there you impose meaning to that taste.
现在你在那里给那种味道赋予了意义。
There is an area of your brain that represents the taste of sweet in taste cortex, and a different area that represents the taste of bitter.
大脑的味觉皮层中有一个区域代表甜味，而另一个区域则代表苦味。
In a sense, there is a topographic map of these taste qualities inside your brain.
从某种意义上说，你的大脑中有一张这些味觉品质的地形图。
Now, we're going to do a thought experiment, all right?
现在，我们要做一个思想实验，好吗？
Now, if this group of neurons in your cortex really represents the sense of sweet, and this other different group of neurons in your brain represents the taste, the perception of bitter, then we should be able to do two things.
现在，如果你的皮质中的这组神经元确实代表了甜味的感觉，而你大脑中另一组不同的神经元代表了味道，即苦味的感觉，那么我们应该能够做两件事。
First, I should be able to go into your brain, somehow silence those neurons, find a way to prevent them from being activated, and I can give you all the sweet you want, and you'll never know that you're tasting sweet.
首先，我应该能够进入你的大脑，以某种方式让那些神经元沉默，找到一种方法阻止它们被激活，然后我可以给你所有你想要的甜味，而你永远不会知道你尝到了甜味。
And conversely, I should be able to go into your brain, come up with a way to activate those neurons, while I'm giving you absolutely nothing, and you're going to think that you're getting that full percept.
相反，我应该能够进入你的大脑，想出一种激活这些神经元的方法，而我什么也不给你，你会认为你得到了完整的感知。
And that's precisely what we have done, and that's precisely what you get.
这正是我们所做的，也正是您所得到的。
This, of course, is in the brain of mice.
当然，这是在老鼠的大脑中。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But presumably in humans it would work similarly.
但想必在人类身上也会有类似的作用。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Absolutely the same.
完全一样。
Zero doubt.
零怀疑。
I have no questions.
我没有问题。
So this attests to two important things.
所以这证明了两件重要的事情。
The first, to the predetermined nature of the sense of taste.
第一，味觉的预定性质。
Because it means I can go to these parts of your brain in the absence of any stimuli and have you throw the full behavioral experience.
因为这意味着我可以在没有任何刺激的情况下进入你大脑的这些部分，让你投入完整的行为体验。
In fact, when we activate in your cortex these bitter neurons, the animal can start gagging.
事实上，当我们激活大脑皮层中的这些苦味神经元时，动物就会开始作呕。
But it's drinking only water.
但它只喝水。
But the animal thinks that it's getting a bitter stimuli.
但动物认为它受到了苦涩的刺激。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This is amazing.
这太棒了。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
And the second, just to finish the line so that it doesn't sound like it teaches two things and then I only give you one lesson, is that it substantiates this capacity of the brain to segregate, to separate in these nodes of action, the representation of these two diametrically opposed percepts.
第二，只是为了完成这一行，这样它听起来就不像它教了两件事，然后我只给你一个教训，那就是它证实了大脑的这种能力，可以在这些行动节点中分离，分离这两种截然相反的感知的表征。
Which is sweet, for example, versus bitter.
例如，哪个是甜的，哪个是苦的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The reason I say amazing, and that is also amazing, is the following.
我之所以说令人惊奇，而且这也是令人惊奇的，原因如下。
You told us earlier, and you're absolutely correct, of course, that at the end of the day, whether or not it's one group of neurons over here and another group of neurons over there, which is the way it turns out to be, electrical activity is the generic common language of both sets of neurons.
你之前告诉过我们，当然，你是绝对正确的，到最后，无论是这里的一组神经元还是那里的另一组神经元，事实证明，电活动是两组神经元的通用语言。
So that raises the question for me of whether or not those separate sets of neurons are connected to areas of the brain that create this sense of valence, or whether or not they're simply connected to sets of neurons that evoke distinct behaviors of moving towards and inhaling more and licking or aversive.
因此，这给我提出了一个问题：这些独立的神经元组是否与产生这种效价感的大脑区域相连，或者它们是否只是与引发不同行为的神经元组相连，例如走向、吸入更多、舔舐或厌恶。
Are we essentially interpreting our behavior and our microresponses, or are microresponses and our behaviors the consequence of the percept?
我们本质上是在解释我们的行为和微反应，还是微反应和我们的行为是感知的结果？
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Excellent question.
很好的问题。
So first the answer is they go into an area of the brain where valence is imposed, and that area is known as the amygdala.
因此，首先答案是它们进入大脑中施加价的区域，该区域被称为杏仁核。
And the sweet neurons go to a different area than the bitter neurons.
甜味神经元与苦味神经元去往不同的区域。
Now, I want to do a thought experiment because I think your audience might appreciate this.
现在，我想做一个思想实验，因为我认为你的观众可能会欣赏这一点。
Let's say I activate this group of neurons, and the animal increases licking.
假设我激活了这组神经元，动物就会增加舔舐行为。
And I'm activating the sweet neurons.
我正在激活甜蜜的神经元。
And so that's expected because now it's tasting this water as if it was sugar.
这是预料之中的，因为现在它尝起来就像是糖一样。
Now this is Moses transforming water into wine.
现在这是摩西将水变成酒。
In this case, and today is Passover, so then it's an appropriate example.
在这种情况下，今天是逾越节，所以这是一个合适的例子。
We're transforming it into sweet.
我们正在把它变成甜的。
But how do I know that activating them is evoking a positive feeling inside, a goodness, a satisfaction, or I love it, versus I'm just increasing licking?
但我怎么知道激活它们会唤起内心的积极感觉，一种善良，一种满足，或者我喜欢它，而不是我只是增加舔？
Which is the other option, because all we're seeing is that the animal is licking more, and we're trying to infer that that means that it's feeling something really good versus, you know what?
这是另一种选择，因为我们看到的是动物舔得更多，我们试图推断这意味着它感觉非常好，你知道吗？
That piano line is going back straight into the tongue, and all it's doing is forcing it to move faster.
那条钢琴线直接回到舌头，它所做的只是迫使它移动得更快。
Well, we can actually separate this by doing experiments that allow us to fundamentally distinguish them.
好吧，我们实际上可以通过做实验来区分它们，从而从根本上区分它们。
And imagine the following experiment.
想象一下下面的实验。
I'm going to take the animal, and I'm going to put him inside a box that has two sides.
我要把这只动物放在一个有两侧的盒子里。
And the two sides have features that make him different.
而且双方都有让他与众不同的特点。
One has yellow little toys, the other one has green toys.
一个有黄色的小玩具，另一个有绿色的玩具。
One has little black stripes, the other one has blue stripes.
一个有黑色的小条纹，另一个有蓝色的条纹。
So the animal can tell the two halves.
所以动物可以区分出两半。
I take the mouse, put him inside this arena, this play arena, and it will explore and putz around both sides with equal frequency.
我拿起鼠标，把他放在这个竞技场，这个游戏竞技场中，它会以相同的频率在两侧探索和移动。
And now what I'm going to do is I'm going to activate these neurons, these sweet neurons, every time the animal is on the side with the yellow stripes.
现在我要做的是，每次动物站在有黄色条纹的一侧时，我都会激活这些神经元，这些可爱的神经元。
And if that is creating a positive internal state, what would the animal now want to do?
如果这正在创造一种积极的内部状态，那么动物现在想要做什么？
It will want to stay on the side with the yellow stripes.
它会想留在有黄色条纹的一侧。
There is no licking here.
这里没有舔。
The animal is not extending its tongue every time I'm activating these neurons.
每次我激活这些神经元时，动物都不会伸出舌头。
This is known as a place preference test.
这称为地点偏好测试。
And it's generally used as just one form of many different tests to demonstrate that the activation of a group of neurons in the brain is imposing, for example, a positive versus a negative valence.
它通常被用作许多不同测试的一种形式，以证明大脑中一组神经元的激活是强加的，例如，正价与负价。
Whereas if I do the same thing by activating the bitter neurons, the animal will actively want now to stay away from the side where these neurons are being activated.
然而，如果我通过激活苦味神经元来做同样的事情，动物现在会主动想要远离这些神经元被激活的一侧。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And that's precisely what you see.
这正是您所看到的。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
And that's precisely what we see.
这正是我们所看到的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Many people, including myself, are familiar with the experience of going to a restaurant, eating a variety of foods, and then, fortunately, it doesn't happen that often, but then feeling very sick.
许多人，包括我自己，都熟悉这样的经历：去一家餐馆，吃各种各样的食物，然后，幸运的是，这种情况并不经常发生，但随后感觉很不舒服。
I learned coming up in neuroscience that this is one strong example of one-trial learning.
我在神经科学领域学习时了解到，这是一次尝试学习的一个强有力的例子。
That from that point on, it's not the restaurant or the waitress or the waiter or the date, but it's my notion of it had to have been the shrimp.
从那时起，问题就不再是餐厅、女服务员、服务员或约会对象了，但我认为一定是虾。
That leads me to then want to avoid shrimp in every context, maybe even shrimp powder-
这导致我在任何情况下都想避免吃虾，甚至可能是虾粉——
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
You got it
你明白了
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
for a very long time.
很长一段时间。
I can imagine all the evolutionarily adaptive reasons why this such a phenomenon would exist.
我可以想象这种现象存在的所有进化适应性原因。
Do we have any concept of where in this pathway that exists?
我们对这条路径中存在的位置有任何概念吗？
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
We do.
我们做到了。
We know actually a significant amount at a general level.
我们实际上在一般层面上了解了大量的信息。
In fact, more than shrimp, oysters are even a more dramatic example.
事实上，比虾更引人注目的例子是牡蛎。
One bad oyster-
一只坏牡蛎——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh
噢
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
...
...
is all you need to be driven away for the next six months.
这就是您在接下来的六个月内需要被赶走的一切。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think because the texture alone is something that one learns to overcome.
我认为因为纹理本身就是一个人要学会克服的东西。
I actually really enjoy oysters.
其实我真的很喜欢牡蛎。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Me too.
我也是。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I despise mussels, despise shrimp, not the animal, but the taste, and yet oysters for some reason, I'm yet to have a bad experience.
我鄙视贻贝，鄙视虾，鄙视的不是动物，而是味道，但牡蛎出于某种原因，我还没有经历过糟糕的经历。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
It's like uni, by the way.
顺便说一句，这就像大学一样。
Texture is hard to get over, but once you get over, it's delicious.
质地很难克服，但一旦克服了，它就会很美味。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's what they tell me.
他们就是这么告诉我的。
We were both in San Diego at one point, and I'll give a plug to Sushi Ota as kind of the famous-
我们都曾在圣地亚哥，我会推荐 Sushi Ota，因为它是著名的——
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Oh, my goodness
哦，我的天哪
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
little sushi.
小寿司。
And they have amazing uni, and I've tried it twice, and I'm oh for two.
他们有很棒的大学，我已经尝试过两次了，我很喜欢两个。
Somehow the texture outweighs any kind of the deliciousness that people report.
不知何故，它的质地胜过人们报道的任何美味。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
It's a very acquired taste, yeah?
这是一种非常后天习得的品味，是吗？
It's like beer.
就像啤酒一样。
I grew up in Chile.
我在智利长大。
That's where the accent comes from, in case anyone wonder.
如果有人想知道的话，这就是口音的来源。
And by the time I came here to graduate school, I was 19, too old to overcome my heavy Chilean accent.
当我来到这里读研究生时，我已经 19 岁了，年纪太大了，无法克服我浓重的智利口音。
So here I am, 40 years, 50 years later, not quite.
所以，40 年、50 年后，我还在这里，不完全是这样。
40 plus.
40多。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We appreciate it.
我们很感激。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
And I still sound like I just came off the boat.
我听起来仍然像刚下船一样。
So in Chile, you don't drink beer when you're young.
所以在智利，年轻的时候不喝啤酒。
You drink wine.
你喝葡萄酒。
Chile's a huge wine producer.
智利是一个巨大的葡萄酒生产国。
So when I came to the US, all of my classmates were drinking beer because they had finished college where they were all beer drinking and graduate school, you're working 18 hours a day, every day.
所以当我来到美国时，我所有的同学都在喝啤酒，因为他们已经读完了大学，他们都在喝啤酒，读完研究生，你每天工作 18 小时，每一天。
The way they relax, let's go and have some beers.
他们放松的样子，我们去喝点啤酒吧。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And beer is cheaper.
而且啤酒更便宜。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
And beer is cheap.
而且啤酒很便宜。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
And we were being clearly underpaid, may I add.
我可以补充一下，我们的工资显然过低。
I couldn't do it.
我做不到。
It's an acquired taste.
这是一种后天习得的品味。
It was too late by then.
那时已经太晚了。
And here I am, 60 plus, and if you take all the beer I've drunk in my entire life, I would say they add to less than an eight-ounce glass of water.
我现在已经 60 多岁了，如果你拿我一生中喝过的所有啤酒来说，我会说它们加到一杯水里的量还不到八盎司。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Impressive.
令人印象深刻。
Well, your health is probably better for it.
嗯，你的健康可能会因此而变得更好。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
I'm not sure.
我不确定。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Your physical health, anyway.
无论如何，你的身体健康。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
So, it goes back to acquired taste.
所以，这又回到了后天的品味。
This is the connection to uni and to oysters.
这就是大学和牡蛎的联系。
Now, going back to the one-trial learning.
现在，回到一次尝试学习。
This is the great thing about our brains.
这就是我们大脑的伟大之处。
Certain things we need to repeat 100 times to learn them.
有些事情我们需要重复100遍才能学会。
"Hello, operator, could I have the phone number for Sushi Ota, please?" And then she'll give it to you over the phone, at least in the old days, and then you need to repeat it to yourself over and over and over, over the next minute, so you can dial Sushi Ota.
“您好，接线员，请问太田寿司的电话号码吗？”然后她会通过电话给你，至少在过去是这样，然后你需要在下一分钟内一遍又一遍地对自己重复，这样你就可以拨打 Sushi Ota 了。
And five minutes later, it's gone.
五分钟后，它就消失了。
That's what we call working memory Yeah.
这就是我们所说的工作记忆 是的。
Then there is the short-term memory.
然后是短期记忆。
Yeah, we park our car, and if we're lucky, by the end of the day, we remember where it is.
是的，我们把车停好，如果幸运的话，到一天结束时，我们会记得它在哪里。
And then there is the long-term memory.
然后是长期记忆。
We remember the birthdays of every one of our children for the rest of our lives.
我们一生都会记住每一个孩子的生日。
Well, there are events that a single event is so traumatic, that it activates the circuits in a way that it's a one-trial learning, and the taste system is literally at the top of that food chain.
嗯，有些事件表明，单个事件是如此令人痛苦，以至于它以一种一次性尝试学习的方式激活了回路，而味觉系统实际上位于食物链的顶端。
And there is a phenomenon known as conditioned taste aversion.
还有一种现象称为条件性味觉厌恶。
You can pair an attractive stimuli with a really bad one.
你可以将一种有吸引力的刺激与一种非常糟糕的刺激配对。
And you can make an animal begin to vehemently dislike, for example, sugar.
你可以让动物开始强烈不喜欢糖。
And that's because you've conditioned the animals to now be averse to this otherwise nice taste because it's been associated with malaise.
那是因为你已经让动物们现在厌恶这种原本美味的味道，因为它与不适有关。
And when you do that, now you can begin to ask what has changed in the signal as it travels from the tongue to the brain in a normal animal versus an animal where you have now transformed sweet from being attractive to being aversive.
当你这样做时，你现在可以开始询问，当信号从舌头传播到正常动物的大脑时，与你现在将甜味从有吸引力转变为厌恶的动物相比，信号发生了什么变化。
And this is the way now you begin to explore how the brain changes the nature, the quality, the meaning of a stimuli as a function of its state.
这就是你现在开始探索大脑如何根据其状态改变刺激的性质、质量和意义的方式。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I have a number of questions related to that, all of which relate to this idea of context.
我有很多与此相关的问题，所有这些问题都与上下文的概念有关。
Because you mentioned before that flavor is distinct from taste because flavor involves smell, texture, temperature-
因为你之前提到过，味道与味道不同，因为味道涉及气味、质地、温度——
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and some other features.
以及其他一些功能。
Uni, sea urchin being a good example of I can sense the texture.
海胆就是一个很好的例子，我可以感觉到它的质地。
It actually, no. I won't describe what it reminds me of for various reasons.
事实上，没有。由于各种原因，我不会描述它让我想起了什么。
The ability to insert context into a perception or rather to insert a perception into context is so powerful.
将上下文插入到感知中，或者更确切地说，将感知插入到上下文中的能力是如此强大。
And there's an element of kind of mystery about it, but if we start to think about some of the more nuance that we like to live at the edge, as you say, how many different tastes on the taste dial, to go back to your analogy earlier, the color dial, do you think that there could be for something as fixed as bitter?
这里面有一种神秘的元素，但如果我们开始思考我们喜欢生活在边缘的一些更细微的差别，正如你所说，味觉表盘上有多少种不同的味道，回到你之前的类比，颜色表盘，你认为可能存在像苦味一样固定的东西吗？
So for instance, I don't think I like bitter tastes, but I like some fermented foods that seem to have a little bit of sour and have a little bit of that briny-
比如说，我不喜欢苦味，但我喜欢一些发酵食品，它们似乎有一点酸味，还有一点咸味——
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
flavor.
味道。
How much plasticity do you think there is there, and in particular across the lifespan?
您认为可塑性有多大，特别是在整个生命周期中？
Because I think one of the most salient examples of this is that kids don't seem to like certain vegetables, but they all are hardwired to like sweet tastes.
因为我认为最明显的例子之一是孩子们似乎不喜欢某些蔬菜，但他们都天生喜欢甜味。
And yet you could also imagine that one of the reasons why they may eventually grow to incorporate vegetables is because of some knowledge that vegetables might be-
然而你也可以想象，它们最终可能种植蔬菜的原因之一是因为一些知识表明蔬菜可能是——
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Good for you
对你有好处
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
better for them.
对他们更好。
So is there a change in the receptors, the distribution, the number, the sensitivity, et cetera, that can explain the transition from wanting to avoid vegetables to being willing to eat vegetables simply in childhood-
那么，受体、分布、数量、敏感性等方面是否发生了变化，可以解释从想要避免蔬菜到愿意吃蔬菜的转变——
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
to early development?
到早期发展？
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
So I want to take the question slightly differently, but I think it will illustrate the point.
所以我想以稍微不同的方式来回答这个问题，但我认为这可以说明这一点。
And I want to just use the difference between the olfactory system and the taste system to make the point.
我想用嗅觉系统和味觉系统之间的差异来说明这一点。
Taste system, five basic palates.
味觉系统，五种基本味觉。
Sweet, sour, bitter, salt, and umami.
甜、酸、苦、盐、鲜。
Each of them has a predetermined identity.
他们每个人都有一个预定的身份。
We know exactly what and valance.
我们确切地知道什么和价。
These are attractive, these are aversive.
这些是有吸引力的，这些是令人厌恶的。
In the olfactory system, it's claimed that we can smell millions of different odors.
据称，在嗅觉系统中，我们可以闻到数百万种不同的气味。
Yet for the most part, none of them have an innate predetermined meaning.
但在大多数情况下，它们都没有固有的预定含义。
In the olfactory system, meaning is imposed by learning and experience.
在嗅觉系统中，意义是由学习和经验赋予的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Even the smell of smoke?
甚至还有烟味？
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
So I'm going to make it differently.
所以我打算用不同的方式来做。
There are a handful of the millions of odors that were claimed that you could immediately tell me these are aversive and these are attractive.
据称，有数百万种气味中的少数几种，你可以立即告诉我这些气味是令人厌恶的，而这些气味是有吸引力的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Vomit.
呕吐。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
So vomit, it's not correct because I can assure you that there are cultures and societies where things which are far less appealing than vomit do not evoke an aversive reaction.
所以呕吐，这是不正确的，因为我可以向你保证，在某些文化和社会中，远不如呕吐有吸引力的东西不会引起厌恶反应。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Really?
真的吗？
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Really.
真的。
Sulfur would be maybe a universal.
硫磺可能是一种普遍存在的物质。
I'm not talking pheromones, okay?
我不是在说信息素，好吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sure.
当然。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Pheromones are in a different category that trigger innate responses.
信息素属于触发先天反应的不同类别。
But nearly every other is afforded meaning by learning and experience.
但几乎所有其他事物都是通过学习和经验而赋予意义的。
And that's why you like broccoli, and I despise broccoli because I remember my mother forcing me to eat broccoli.
这就是为什么你喜欢西兰花，而我鄙视西兰花，因为我记得我妈妈强迫我吃西兰花。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm so sorry.
我很抱歉。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Same sensory experience.
同样的感官体验。
Yeah.
是的。
All right.
好的。
This accommodates two important things.
这容纳了两件重要的事情。
Yeah.
是的。
In the case of taste, you have neurons at every station that are for sweet, for sour, for bitter, for salty, and umami.
就味觉而言，每个位置都有神经元，分别代表甜、酸、苦、咸和鲜。
It's only five classes, so it's not going to take a lot of your brain.
只有五节课，所以不会占用你太多的脑力。
If we can in fact smell a million odors and every one of those odors had to have predetermined meaning, there's not going to be enough brain just to accommodate that one sense.
如果我们实际上可以闻到一百万种气味，并且每一种气味都必须具有预定的含义，那么就没有足够的大脑来容纳这种感觉。
And so evolution in its infinite wisdom evolve a system where you put together a pathway and a cortex, olfactory cortex, where you have the capacity to associate every odor In a specific context that now gives it the meaning.
因此，进化以其无限的智慧进化出一个系统，在这个系统中，你将一条路径和一个皮层、嗅觉皮层组合在一起，在那里你有能力将每种气味与现在赋予其意义的特定环境联系起来。
Now, let's go back to the original question then.
现在，让我们回到最初的问题。
So other than clearly plastic, mega plastic, because it's fundamental basis and neural organization.
因此，除了明显的塑料、巨型塑料之外，因为它是基本的基础和神经组织。
But taste, we just told you that's predetermined hardwire.
但是味道，我们刚刚告诉过你，这是预先确定的硬线。
But predetermined hardwire doesn't mean that it's not modulated by learning or experience.
但预定的硬连线并不意味着它不受学习或经验的调节。
It only means that you are born liking sweet and disliking bitter.
这只说明你生来喜甜不喜苦。
And we have many examples of plasticity, beer being one example.
我们有很多可塑性的例子，啤酒就是一个例子。
So why do we learn to love beer, coffee?
那么为什么我们学会爱上啤酒、咖啡呢？
It's because it has an associated gain to the system, and that gain to the system, that positive valance that emerges out of that negative signal is sufficient to create that positive association.
这是因为它对系统有关联的增益，而对系统的增益，从负信号中产生的正价足以创建正关联。
And in the case of beer, of course, it's alcohol.
就啤酒而言，当然是酒精。
The feeling good that we get after is more than sufficient to say, "I want to have more of this." And in the case of coffee, of course, it's caffeine activating a whole group of neurotransmitter systems that give you that high associated with coffee.
我们所追求的美好感觉足以让我们说：“我想要更多这样的感觉。”当然，就咖啡而言，咖啡因会激活一整组神经递质系统，使您与咖啡产生高度关联。
So yes, this taste system is changeable, it's malleable, and is subjected to learning and experience.
所以，是的，这种品味系统是可变的、可塑的，并且需要学习和经验。
But unlike the olfactory system, it's restricted in what you could do with it because its goal is to allow you to get nutrients and survive.
但与嗅觉系统不同的是，它的作用受到限制，因为它的目标是让你获得营养并生存。
The goal of the olfactory system is very different.
嗅觉系统的目标非常不同。
It's being used, not in our case, but in every animal species, to identify friend versus foe, to identify mate, to identify ecological niches they want to be in.
它被用来，不是在我们的例子中，而是在每个动物物种中，来识别朋友与敌人，识别配偶，识别它们想要进入的生态位。
So it plays a very broad role that then requires that it be set up, organized, and function in a very different type of context.
因此，它发挥着非常广泛的作用，因此需要它在非常不同类型的环境中建立、组织和运行。
Taste is about can we get the nutrients we need to survive?
味觉关乎我们能否获得生存所需的营养？
And can we ensure that we are attracted to the ones we need and we are averse to the ones that are going to kill us?
我们能否确保我们被我们需要的人所吸引，而我们厌恶那些会杀死我们的人？
I'm being overly simplistic and reductionist, but I think it illustrates a huge difference between these two chemosensory systems.
我过于简单化和还原论，但我认为这说明了这两种化学感应系统之间的巨大差异。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I don't think you're being overly simplistic.
我不认为你过于简单化了。
I think it illustrates the key and tractable nature of this system and the way you've approached it, and I think it's important for people to hear that.
我认为它说明了这个系统的关键和易于处理的本质以及您处理它的方式，我认为人们听到这一点很重要。
Because everybody, as we are mystified with empathy and love, et cetera.
因为每个人，就像我们一样，都对同理心和爱等感到困惑。
So in a fairness to that, I'm going to ask a sort of a high level question or abstract question.
因此，公平地说，我将问一个高级问题或抽象问题。
This was based on a conversation I had with a former girlfriend, where we were talking about chemistry between individuals.
这是基于我和前女友的一次谈话，我们谈论的是人与人之间的化学反应。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Very complicated topic on the one hand, but on the other hand, quite simple in that certain people, for whatever reason, evoke a tremendous sense of arousal, for lack of a better word, between two people, one would hope.
一方面，这是一个非常复杂的话题，但另一方面，也很简单，因为某些人，无论出于何种原因，都会在两个人之间引起巨大的兴奋感，因为缺乏更好的词，人们希望。
At least for some period of time.
至少在一段时间内是这样。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
I didn't know this was that kind of a podcast.
我不知道这是这样的播客。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No. Well, the reason I-
不，好吧，原因是我-
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
I'm going.
我走了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But this has to do with taste because she said something, I think in part to maybe irritate me a bit.
但这与品味有关，因为她说了一些话，我认为部分原因可能有点激怒我。
But we were commenting not about our own experience of each other, but of someone that she was now very excited about.
但我们评论的不是我们彼此的经历，而是她现在非常兴奋的某个人。
We're on good terms.
我们关系很好。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Uh-huh.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And she said: "What do you think it is, this thing of chemistry?" So maybe she was trying to, you know-
她说：“你认为这是什么，化学的东西？”所以也许她正在尝试，你知道-
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Warn you-
警告你——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right
右
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
...
...
of what's coming.
即将发生的事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Warn me what's coming.
警告我即将发生什么。
And she said, "I have a feeling something about it is in smell, and something about it is actually in taste." Literally the taste of somebody's breath.
她说：“我有一种感觉，那就是气味，而且实际上是味道。”字面意思是某人呼吸的味道。
That's the way she described it.
她就是这样描述的。
And I thought that it was a very interesting example, for a number of reasons, but in particular because it gets to the merging of odor and taste, but also to the idea that, of course, the context of a new relationship, I'm assuming, and in fact they're both attractive people, et cetera.
我认为这是一个非常有趣的例子，原因有很多，但特别是因为它涉及气味和味道的融合，而且还涉及到这样的想法：当然，我假设是一种新关系的背景，事实上他们都是有吸引力的人，等等。
There's a whole context there.
那里有一个完整的背景。
But I've had the experience of the odor of somebody's breath being aversive, not because I could identify it as aversive-
但我曾有过某人呼吸气味令人厌恶的经历，并不是因为我能将其识别为令人厌恶的——
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Because you just didn't like it
因为你只是不喜欢它
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
but because it just didn't like it.
但因为它只是不喜欢它。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
But that's because you associate it with other odors-
但那是因为你会把它与其他气味联系起来——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
...
...
that-
那-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
...
...
trigger that negative aversive reaction, by the way.
顺便说一下，会引发负面的厌恶反应。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
There are certain perfumes to me that are aversive.
有些香水对我来说是令人厌恶的。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
You got it.
你明白了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And there are other scents in-
还有其他气味——
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
can recall scents of skin, of foods, et cetera, that are immensely appetitive.
可以回忆起非常令人食欲的皮肤气味、食物气味等等。
So I've experienced both sides of this equation myself, and she was describing this.
所以我自己经历过这个等式的两边，她正在描述这一点。
And to me, more than tasting wine, which is the typical example where people inhale it and then they drink it, to me this seems like something that more people might be able to relate to.
对我来说，不仅仅是品尝葡萄酒（这是人们吸入葡萄酒然后喝掉它的典型例子），对我来说，这似乎是更多人可能能够理解的事情。
That certain things and people smell delicious.
某些事物和某些人闻起来很美味。
Even mothers describing the smell of their baby's head.
就连妈妈们也会描述自己宝宝头顶的气味。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Of course, a mother.
当然是母亲。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Of course.
当然。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Us.
我们。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Men, too.
男人也一样。
Yeah, of course.
是的，当然。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Our own babies-
我们自己的宝贝——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Of course
当然
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
...
...
when they're in their necks, that's the magical place.
当它们挂在脖子上时，那就是神奇的地方。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Their neck.
他们的脖子。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
The back of their neck.
他们的脖子后面。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There you go.
就这样吧。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Oh my goodness.
天哪。
I have a grandchild now, so I know exactly what Rio, that's his name, smells like.
我现在有了孙子，所以我清楚地知道他的名字里约闻起来是什么味道。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
So more beautiful examples.
所以有更多美丽的例子。
It's always more fun to think-
思考总是更有趣——
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
about the beautiful, positive, the appetitive-
关于美丽、积极、有欲望——
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
examples.
例子。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The smell of the back of your grandson's neck.
你孙子脖子后面的气味。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You could get more specific than that, but not a lot more specific.
你可以得到比这更具体的信息，但也不会更具体。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So what is going on in terms of the combination of odor and taste, given that these two systems are so different?
那么，考虑到这两个系统如此不同，在气味和味道的组合方面发生了什么？
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Yes.
是的。
And they come together Ultimately, there is a place in the brain where they come together to integrate the two into what we would call that sensory experience.
最终，它们聚集在一起，在大脑中有一个地方，它们聚集在一起，将两者整合成我们所说的感官体验。
And I'll tell you an experiment that you could do that demonstrates this.
我将告诉你一个你可以做的实验来证明这一点。
I think it's good for your audience here to get a sense of how we approach these problems so that we can get meaningful scientific answers.
我认为让观众了解我们如何处理这些问题是有好处的，这样我们就能得到有意义的科学答案。
So we know where the olfactory cortex is in the brain.
所以我们知道嗅觉皮层在大脑中的位置。
We know where the taste cortex is in the brain.
我们知道味觉皮层在大脑中的位置。
They're in two different places.
他们在两个不同的地方。
We can go to each of these two cortices, put color traces, we put green in one, we put red in the other, and we see where the colors go to.
我们可以到这两个皮质中的每一个，放置颜色痕迹，我们在一个皮质中放置绿色，在另一个皮质中放置红色，然后我们看看颜色去了哪里。
That's a reflection of where those neurons are projecting to into their next targets.
这反映了这些神经元投射到下一个目标的位置。
Once they get the signal, where do they send the signal to?
一旦他们收到信号，他们将信号发送到哪里？
And then we reason that if odor and taste come together somewhere in the brain, we should find an area that now it's getting red and green color.
然后我们推断，如果气味和味道在大脑的某个地方结合在一起，我们应该找到一个现在变成红色和绿色的区域。
And we found such an area.
我们发现了这样一个区域。
And next, we anticipated, we hypothesized that maybe this is the area in the brain of the mouse, corresponding area in the brain of humans, that integrates odor and taste.
接下来，我们预计，我们假设这可能是小鼠大脑中的区域，也就是人类大脑中的相应区域，它整合了气味和味道。
It's known, the term normally used is multi-sensory integration.
据了解，通常使用的术语是多感觉统合。
And if this is true, we could do the following experiment.
如果这是真的，我们可以做以下实验。
We can train a mouse to lick sweet, and if they guess correctly that that is supposed to be sweet, they should go now to the right port, to the right side to get a water reward.
我们可以训练一只老鼠去舔甜食，如果它们猜对了，那应该是甜的，它们现在应该去正确的端口，去右边以获得水奖励。
If they go to the left when it was sweet, then they're incorrect and they get no reward, and they actually get a time out.
如果他们在甜的时候走到左边，那么他们就是错误的，他们不会得到任何奖励，而且他们实际上会得到一个暂停。
Now the mice are thirsty, so they're very motivated to perform, and if you repeat this task 100 times, 100 trials, incredibly enough, this animal learn to recognize the sweet and execute the right action.
现在老鼠很渴，所以他们非常有动力去执行，如果你重复这个任务100次，100次试验，令人难以置信的是，这种动物学会识别甜味并执行正确的行动。
And by their action, we now are being told what that animal is tasting.
通过它们的行为，我们现在可以得知该动物正在品尝什么。
We can make it more interesting, and we can give him sweet and bitter and say, "If it's sweet, go to the right, and if it's bitter, go to the left." And after you train him, these mice with 90% accuracy will tell you when you randomize now the stimuli, what was sweet and what was bitter.
我们可以让它变得更有趣，我们可以给他甜和苦，然后说：“如果是甜的，就到右边，如果是苦的，就到左边。”在你训练他之后，这些老鼠会以 90% 的准确率告诉你，当你现在随机选择刺激时，什么是甜的，什么是苦的。
All right.
好的。
We can now do the same experiment, but now mix taste with odor.
我们现在可以做同样的实验，但现在将味道与气味混合在一起。
And say, "If you got odor alone, go to the right or push this lever," in mice.
然后对小鼠说：“如果只有气味，请向右移动或按下这个控制杆”。
"If you get taste alone, go to this other part or push this other lever.
“如果你只喜欢品味，那就去另一个部分或推动另一个杠杆。
And if you get the two together, do this something else." And if you train the mice, the mice are able now to report back to you when it's sensing taste alone, odor alone, or the mix.
如果你把两者结合起来，那就做点别的事情。”如果你训练老鼠，老鼠现在能够在单独感知味道、单独感知气味或混合感知味道时向你报告。
Make sense?
有道理吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Makes sense.
有道理。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Now we can go to the brain of these mice and go to this area that we now uncover, discover as being the site of multi-sensory integration between taste and odor, and silence it.
现在我们可以进入这些小鼠的大脑，进入我们现在发现的这个区域，发现它是味觉和气味之间多感官整合的部位，并使其安静。
Prevent it from being activated experimentally.
防止其被实验激活。
And if that area really represented the integration of these two, the animal should still be able to recognize the taste alone, they still should be able to recognize the odor alone, but should be incapable now to recognize the mix.
如果该区域确实代表了这两者的融合，那么动物应该仍然能够单独识别味道，它们仍然应该能够单独识别气味，但现在应该无法识别混合物。
And exactly as predicted, that's exactly what you get.
正如预测的那样，这正是您所得到的。
All right?
好的？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The brain is basically a series of engineered circuits.
大脑基本上是一系列工程电路。
Complex.
复杂的。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
You got it.
你明白了。
And our task is to figure out how can we extract this amazing architecture of these circuits in a way that we can begin to uncover the mysteries of the brain.
我们的任务是弄清楚如何提取这些电路的惊人架构，从而开始揭开大脑的奥秘。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And why certain people's breath tastes so good and other people's-
为什么有些人的呼吸味道那么好而另一些人的——
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
not so good.
不太好。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
So I never answered that, but I told you how we can figure out where in the brain it's happening.
所以我从未回答过这个问题，但我告诉过你我们如何找出大脑中发生这种情况的位置。
Okay?
好的？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
As we've been having this discussion, I thought a few times about similarities to the visual system, or differences to the visual system.
当我们进行讨论时，我多次思考了与视觉系统的相似之处或差异。
The visual system, there are a couple of phenomenon that I wonder if they also exist in the taste system.
视觉系统中，有一些现象我想知道它们是否也存在于味觉系统中。
In the visual system, we know, for instance, that if you look at something long enough and activate the given receptors long enough, that object will actually disappear.
例如，在视觉系统中，我们知道，如果你看某物足够长的时间并激活给定的受体足够长的时间，该物体实际上就会消失。
We offset this with little micro eye movements, et cetera.
我们通过微小的眼球运动等来抵消这一点。
But the principle is a fundamental one, this habituation or desensitization.
但这个原则是一个基本原则，即习惯化或脱敏。
Everyone seems to call it something different, but you get the idea, of course.
每个人似乎都称之为不同的东西，但你当然明白这个想法。
In the taste system, I'm certainly familiar with eating something very, very sweet for the first time in a long time, and it tastes very sweet.
在味觉系统中，我当然很熟悉很长时间以来第一次吃非常非常甜的东西，而且味道非常甜。
But a few more licks, a few more bites, and now it tastes not as sweet.
但多舔几口，多咬几口，现在味道就不那么甜了。
With olfaction, I'm familiar with the odor in a room I don't like or I like, and then it disappearing.
通过嗅觉，我熟悉了我不喜欢或喜欢的房间里的气味，然后它就消失了。
So similar phenomena.
如此类似的现象。
Where does that occur?
这种情况发生在哪里？
And can you imagine a sort of a system by which people could leverage that?
你能想象一种人们可以利用它的系统吗？
Because I do think that most people are interested in eating not more sugar But less sugar
因为我确实认为大多数人感兴趣的不是多吃糖而是少吃糖
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
I think we have better ways to approach that, and we can transition from taste into these other circuits that makes sugar so extraordinarily impossible not to consume.
我认为我们有更好的方法来解决这个问题，我们可以从味觉过渡到其他回路，从而使糖变得非常不可能不被消耗。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Impossible.
不可能。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, my.
哦，我的。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
So where does this desensitizing happens?
那么这种脱敏发生在哪里呢？
That's the term that we use.
这就是我们使用的术语。
And it's, I think, happening at multiple stations.
我认为，这种情况在多个车站都发生过。
It's happening at the receptor level, i.e., the cells in your tongue that are sensing that sugar.
它发生在受体水平，即舌头中感知糖的细胞。
As you activate this receptor, and it's triggering activity after activity after activity, eventually you exhaust the receptor.
当你激活这个受体时，它会一次又一次地触发活动，最终你会耗尽受体。
Again, I'm using terms which are extraordinarily loose.
再次强调，我使用的术语非常宽松。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But for sake of this discussion, that's fine.
但就本次讨论而言，这很好。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
For the sake of this discussion, the receptor gets to a point where it undergoes a set of changes, chemical changes.
为了便于讨论，受体会经历一系列变化，即化学变化。
Where it now signals far less efficiently, or it even gets removed from the surface of the cell.
现在它发出信号的效率大大降低，甚至从细胞表面被移除。
And now what will happen is that the same amount of sugar will trigger far less of a response.
现在会发生的是，相同量的糖所引发的反应要少得多。
And that is a huge side of this modulation.
这是这种调制的一个重要方面。
And then the next, I believe, is the integrated, again, loss of signaling that happens by continuous activation of the circuit at each of these different neural stations.
接下来，我相信，再次是由于每个不同神经站的电路连续激活而发生的信号丢失。
There is from the tongue to the ganglia, from the ganglia to the first station in the brain stem, a second station in the brain stem to the thalamus, then to the cortex.
有从舌头到神经节，从神经节到脑干第一站，脑干第二站到丘脑，然后到皮质。
So there are multiple steps that this signal is traveling.
因此，该信号的传输过程有多个步骤。
Now you might say, "If this is a label line, why do you need to have so many stations?" And that's because the taste system is so important to ensure that you get what you need to survive, that it has to be subjected to modulation by the internal state.
现在你可能会说，“如果这是一条标签线，为什么需要有这么多站？”这是因为味觉系统对于确保你获得生存所需的东西非常重要，因此它必须受到内部状态的调节。
And each of these nodes provides a new site to give it plasticity and modulation.
这些节点中的每一个都提供了一个新的站点，以赋予其可塑性和调制性。
Not necessarily to change the way that something tastes, but to ensure that you consume more or less, or differently, of what you need.
不一定要改变某种东西的味道，而是要确保你或多或少地或以不同的方式消耗你所需要的东西。
I'm going to give you one example of how the internal state changes the way the taste system works.
我将给你举一个例子，说明内部状态如何改变味觉系统的工作方式。
Salt is very appetitive at low concentrations, and that's because we need it.
盐在低浓度下非常有食欲，那是因为我们需要它。
Our electrolyte balance requires salt.
我们的电解质平衡需要盐。
Every one of the neurons uses salt as the most important of the ions, with potassium, to ensure that you can transfer these electrical signals within and between neurons.
每个神经元都使用盐作为最重要的离子，与钾一起，以确保可以在神经元内部和神经元之间传递这些电信号。
But at high concentrations, let's say ocean water, is incredibly aversive.
但在高浓度下，比如说海水，是令人难以置信的令人厌恶。
And we all know this because we've gone to the ocean, and then when you get it in your mouth, it's not that great.
我们都知道这一点，因为我们已经去了大海，然后当你把它放进嘴里时，它就没那么好了。
However, if I salt-deprive you, and we can do this in experimental models quite readily, now this incredibly high concentration of salt, one molar sodium chloride, becomes amazingly appetitive and attractive.
然而，如果我剥夺你的盐分，并且我们可以很容易地在实验模型中做到这一点，那么现在这种令人难以置信的高浓度盐（一摩尔氯化钠）会变得令人惊讶的食欲和吸引力。
What's going on in here?
这里发生了什么事？
Your tongue is telling you, "This is horrible," but your brain is telling you, "I don't care.
你的舌头告诉你，“这太可怕了”，但你的大脑告诉你，“我不在乎。
You need it." And this is what we call the modulation of the taste system by the internal state.
你需要它。”这就是我们所说的内部状态对味觉系统的调节。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And presumably, if one is hungry enough, even uni will taste good.
据推测，如果一个人足够饿，即使是大学也会尝起来很好。
Just to me.
只对我来说。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
You hit it right on the money.
你在金钱上击中了它。
No, this is exactly correct.
不，这是完全正确的。
Or if you're thirsty and hungry, you suppress hunger so that you don't waste water molecules in digesting food.
或者，如果你又渴又饿，你就会抑制饥饿感，这样你就不会在消化食物时浪费水分子。
Why?
为什么？
Because if you're thirsty and you have no water, you will die within a week or so.
因为如果你口渴而没有水，你就会在一周左右的时间内死亡。
But you can go on a hunger strike as long as you have water for months because you're going to eat up all your energy reserves.
但只要有水，你就可以绝食几个月，因为你会耗尽你所有的能量储备。
Water is a different story.
水则是另一回事。
So you could see that there are multiple layers at which the taste system that guides our drive and our motivation to consume the nutrients we need has to be modulated in response to the internal state.
所以你可以看到，味觉系统在多个层面上引导我们消耗所需营养的动力和动机，必须根据内部状态进行调节。
And of course, internal state itself has to be modulated by the external world, eh?
当然，内部状态本身必须受到外部世界的调节，不是吗？
And so that, I think, is a reason why what could otherwise would have been an incredibly simple system from the tongue to the cortex in one just wire, it's not.
因此，我认为，这就是为什么本来可以用一根电线从舌头到皮层的一个极其简单的系统，但事实并非如此。
Because you have to ensure that at each step you give the system that level of flexibility or what we call in neuroscience, plasticity.
因为你必须确保在每一步都赋予系统一定程度的灵活性，或者我们在神经科学中所说的可塑性。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think we're headed into the gut.
我认为我们正在进入肠道。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
All right.
好吧。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But I have a question that has just been on my mind for a bit now.
但我有一个问题一直萦绕在我的脑海里。
Because I was drinking this water, and it has essentially no taste.
因为我喝的是这个水，基本上没有味道。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is there any kind of signal for the absence of taste despite having something in the mouth?
尽管嘴里有东西但没有味觉，是否有任何信号？
And here is why I ask.
这就是我问的原因。
What I'm thinking about is saliva.
我想到的就是口水。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And while it's true that if I eat a lot of very highly palatable foods, that does change how I experience more bland foods I must confess, when I eat a lot of these highly processed foods, I don't particularly like them.
虽然确实，如果我吃了很多非常美味的食物，这确实会改变我对更清淡食物的体验，但我必须承认，当我吃了很多这些高度加工的食物时，我并不特别喜欢它们。
I tend to crave healthier foods, but that's probably for contextual reasons about nutrients, et cetera.
我倾向于渴望更健康的食物，但这可能是出于营养等方面的原因。
But I could imagine an experiment where-
但我可以想象一个实验——
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Is there a taste of no taste?
有没有一种没有味道的味道？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Is there a taste of no taste?
有没有一种没有味道的味道？
Because in the visual system there is.
因为视觉系统中有。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
You close the eyes, and you start getting increases in activity-
你闭上眼睛，你的活动开始增加——
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in the visual system-
在视觉系统中——
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
as opposed to decreases, which often surprises people.
而不是下降，这常常让人们感到惊讶。
But there are reasons for that, because everything is about signal to noise, signal to background.
但这是有原因的，因为一切都与信号与噪声、信号与背景有关。
And-
还有——
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
It's a good question.
这是一个好问题。
I can tell you that most of our work is trying to focus on how the taste system works, not how it doesn't work.
我可以告诉你，我们的大部分工作都试图关注味觉系统如何运作，而不是它如何不起作用。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, but-
好吧，但是——
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
I know.
我知道。
I'm just being playful.
我只是玩玩而已。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, I know you're being playful.
是的，我知道你很贪玩。
And I knew when inviting you here today, I was setting myself up for...
我知道今天邀请你来这里的时候，我是在为……做好准备。
I actually, on a different-
事实上，我在不同的——
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
We're trying to learn things.
我们正在努力学习东西。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, I know.
是的，我知道。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
However-
然而——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
All right.
好吧。
Listen, I was weaned in this system of, and I'll say it here for the second time.
听着，我已经在这个系统中断奶了，我会在这里第二次说。
Actually, I recorded a podcast recently with a very prominent podcast, the Lex Fridman Podcast, and I made reference to the so-called New York Neuroscience Mafia.
事实上，我最近用一个非常著名的播客 Lex Fridman 播客录制了一个播客，我提到了所谓的纽约神经科学黑手党。
I won't say whether or not we are sitting in the presence of a New York Neuroscience Mafia member.
我不会透露我们是否坐在纽约神经科学黑手党成员面前。
But in any event, I know the sorts of ribbing that they provide.
但无论如何，我知道他们提供的各种笑话。
For those listening, this is the kind of hazing that happens, benevolent hazing in academia.
对于那些倾听的人来说，这就是学术界发生的一种欺凌，仁慈的欺凌。
I'm the target.
我就是目标。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Of course.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's a sign of love.
这是爱的标志。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
He's going to tell me that.
他会告诉我这一点。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
And it's always about the science in the end.
最终总是与科学有关。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
But-
但是——
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
It's an interesting question.
这是一个有趣的问题。
Look, I don't know the answer, and I don't even know how I would explore it in a way that it will rigorously teach me.
看，我不知道答案，我什至不知道如何以它严格教我的方式探索它。
But-
但是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Here, let me tell you why I'm asking.
下面我就来说说我为什么问这个问题吧。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then I'll offer an experiment-
然后我将提供一个实验-
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that I'd love to see someone in your lab do.
我很乐意看到你实验室里的人这样做。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Excellent.
太棒了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm thinking about saliva.
我正在考虑唾液。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Which it's-
这是——
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
No. But that we know.
不，但我们知道。
That we can figure it out easily.
我们可以很容易地弄清楚。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
But the question is whether or not the saliva in a fed state is distinct from the saliva in an unfed state such that it modulates-
但问题是，进食状态下的唾液是否与未进食状态下的唾液不同，从而调节——
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
It's not
这不是
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
the sensitivity of the receptors.
受体的敏感性。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
That experiment has been done.
那个实验已经完成了。
No.
不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It has been done.
它已经完成了。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And so the answer is no.
所以答案是否定的。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
It's no. Yeah, and the way you could do the experiment is because we use artificial saliva.
不是的。是的，你可以做这个实验的方法是因为我们使用人造唾液。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There's such a thing?
有这样的事吗？
I know there's artificial tears, but...
我知道有人工泪液，但是...
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
No, we, I don't mean that you go to Walgreens and you get...
不，我们，我不是说你去沃尔格林你会得到......
I mean, we in my laboratory.
我的意思是，我们在我的实验室里。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
We know the composition of saliva, and so you can make such a thing.
我们知道唾液的成分，所以你可以做这样的东西。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
And you can take taste cells in culture or in a tongue where you wash it out of, and then you can apply artificial saliva.
你可以在培养物或舌头中取出味觉细胞，然后将其洗掉，然后你可以使用人造唾液。
And what happens is that the system is being engineered to desensitize, to become agnostic, for saliva to become invisible.
所发生的情况是，该系统正在被设计为脱敏、变得不可知论、让唾液变得看不见。
Yeah?
是的？
And there is no difference on the state of the animal.
而且动物的状态也没有什么区别。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Great.
太棒了。
Well, this is the reason to do experiments.
嗯，这就是做实验的原因。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Yeah, absolutely.
是的，绝对是。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So it doesn't defeat any grand hypothesis.
所以它并没有推翻任何宏大的假设。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Yeah, no.
是的，不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's just a pure curiosity.
这只是纯粹的好奇心。
So-
所以——
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
You know that curiosity killed the cat, yeah?
你知道好奇害死猫吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I do.
我愿意。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Go on.
继续吧。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But saves the career of a scientist.
但拯救了一位科学家的职业生涯。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Of course.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Every single time.
每一次。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
That's what drives us.
这就是我们的动力。
Absolutely.
绝对地。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Every single time.
每一次。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
It's the story of our lives.
这是我们生活的故事。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Very good.
非常好。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So if it's not saliva, and apparently it is not, what about internal state?
那么，如果它不是唾液（而且显然不是），那么内部状态又如何呢？
And what aspects of the internal milieu are relevant?
内部环境的哪些方面是相关的？
Because there's autonomic, there's asleep and awake.
因为有自主性，所以有睡眠和清醒。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There's stress.
有压力。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Totally.
完全可以。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
One of the questions that I got from hundreds of people when I solicited questions in advance of this episode was why do I crave sugar when I'm stressed, for instance, and that could be contextual, but what are the basic elements?
当我在这一集之前征求问题时，我从数百人那里得到的问题之一是，为什么我在有压力时会渴望吃糖，这可能是上下文相关的，但基本要素是什么？
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Because it makes us feel good.
因为它让我们感觉良好。
By the way, we'll get to that.
顺便说一句，我们会谈到这一点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's soothing.
这很舒缓。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
That's the answer.
这就是答案。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Soothing.
舒缓。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
It activates what I'm going to generically refer to as reward pleasure centers in a way that it dramatically changes our internal state.
它激活了我通常所说的奖励快乐中心，从而极大地改变了我们的内部状态。
This is why do we eat a gallon of ice cream when we're very depressed?
这就是为什么我们在非常沮丧的时候会吃一加仑冰淇淋？
Yeah.
是的。
In fact, this is a good segue to go into this entirely different world, yeah, of the body telling your brain what you need in important things like sugar and fat.
事实上，这是进入这个完全不同的世界的一个很好的选择，是的，身体告诉你的大脑你需要什么重要的东西，比如糖和脂肪。
Yeah?
是的？
Okay, but anyways, go ahead.
好吧，但无论如何，继续吧。
You were going to ask something.
你本来想问一些事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, no, I would like to discuss the most basic elements of internal state.
好吧，不，我想讨论一下内部状态的最基本要素。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In particular, the ones that are below our conscious detection.
特别是那些我们意识不到的东西。
And this is, of course, as I segue into this incredible landscape, which is the gut-brain axis.
当然，当我进入这个令人难以置信的景观时，这就是肠脑轴。
Which I think 15 years ago was almost a, maybe it was a-
我认为 15 年前几乎是，也许是——
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Unheard of
闻所未闻
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
couple posters at a meeting, and then now I believe you and others, there are companies.
会议上的几张海报，然后现在我相信你和其他人，有公司。
There have companies, there are active research programs, and beautiful work.
这里有公司，有活跃的研究项目，还有漂亮的工作。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Maybe you could describe some of that work that you and others have been involved in.
也许您可以描述一下您和其他人参与的一些工作。
And a lot of the listeners of this podcast will have heard of the gut-brain axis, and there are a lot of misconceptions about the gut-brain axis.
这个播客的很多听众都会听说过肠-脑轴，并且对肠-脑轴有很多误解。
Many people think that this means that we think with our stomach because of the, quote-unquote, "gut feeling"-
许多人认为这意味着我们用我们的胃思考，因为“直觉”——
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
aspect.
方面。
But I'd love for you to talk about the aspects of gut-brain signaling that drive or change our perceptions and behaviors that are completely beneath our awareness.
但我希望你能谈谈肠脑信号传导的各个方面，这些信号驱动或改变我们完全意识不到的感知和行为。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Yes.
是的。
Excellent.
出色的。
So let me begin maybe by stating that the brain needs to monitor the state of every one of our organs.
因此，首先我要指出的是，大脑需要监控我们每一个器官的状态。
It has to do it.
它必须这样做。
This is the only way that the brain can ensure That every one of those organs are working together in a way that we have healthy physiology.
这是大脑确保每个器官以健康的生理机能方式协同工作的唯一方法。
Now, this monitoring of the brain has been known for a long time, but I think what hadn't been fully appreciated, that this is a two-way highway, where the brain is not only monitoring, but is now modulating back what the body needs to do.
现在，这种对大脑的监控早已为人所知，但我认为尚未得到充分认识的是，这是一条双向高速公路，大脑不仅在监控，而且现在正在调节身体需要做什么。
And that includes all the way from monitoring the frequency of heartbeats and the way that inspiration and aspirations in the breathing cycle operate, to what happens when you ingest sugar and fat.
这包括从监测心跳频率、呼吸周期中吸气和呼气的运作方式，到摄入糖和脂肪时会发生什么。
Now, let me give you an example again of how the brain can take what we would refer to contextual associations and transform it into incredible changes in physiology and metabolism.
现在，让我再次给你举一个例子，说明大脑如何将我们所说的情境关联转化为生理和新陈代谢方面令人难以置信的变化。
Remember Pavlov?
还记得巴甫洛夫吗？
So Pavlov, in his classical experiments in associative conditioning, he would take a bell, he would ring the bell every time he was going to feed the dog.
所以巴甫洛夫，在他的联想条件反射的经典实验中，他会拿一个铃，每次他要喂狗的时候他都会按响铃。
And eventually, the dog learned to associate the ringing of the bell with food coming.
最终，狗学会了将铃声的响起与食物的到来联系起来。
Now, the first incredible finding he made is the fact that the dog now, in the presence of the bell alone, will start to salivate.
现在，他做出的第一个令人难以置信的发现是，狗现在只要有铃声，就会开始流口水。
And we will call that, neurologically speaking, an anticipatory response.
从神经学的角度来说，我们将其称为预期反应。
Okay, I could understand it.
好吧，我能理解。
I get it.
我得到它。
Neurons in the brain that form that association now represent food is coming, and they're sending a signal to motor neurons to go into your salivary glands to squeeze them so you release saliva because you know food is coming.
大脑中形成这种联系的神经元现在代表食物即将到来，它们向运动神经元发送信号，进入你的唾液腺挤压它们，这样你就会释放唾液，因为你知道食物即将到来。
But what's even more remarkable is that those animals are also releasing insulin in response to a bell.
但更值得注意的是，这些动物也会随着铃声的反应而释放胰岛素。
Okay.
好的。
This illustrates one part of this two-way highway, the highway going down.
这说明了这条双向高速公路的一部分，即向下的高速公路。
Somehow, the brain created these associations, and there are neurons in your brain now that know food is coming, and send a signal somehow all the way down to your pancreas, that now it says release insulin because sugar is coming down.
不知何故，大脑创造了这些关联，现在你大脑中的神经元知道食物即将到来，并以某种方式一路向下发送信号到你的胰腺，现在它说释放胰岛素，因为糖分下降了。
All right.
好的。
This goes back to the magic of the brain.
这又回到了大脑的魔力。
It's a never-ending source of both joy and intrigue.
这是欢乐和好奇心永无休止的源泉。
How the hell do they do this?
他们到底是怎么做到的？
Okay.
好的。
I mean, the neurons, eh?
我的意思是，神经元，是吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I share- ...
我分享——...
your delight and fascination.
你的喜悦和迷恋。
There's not a day or a lecture or some talks are better than others, or a talk where I don't sit back and just think it's absolutely amazing.
没有一天、一场讲座或一些演讲比其他演讲更好，或者每次演讲我不坐下来，只是认为它绝对是令人惊奇的。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
How?
怎么办？
Yeah, all right.
是的，好吧。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's amazing.
太棒了。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Now, over the past dozen years, and with great force over the last five years.
现在，过去的十几年，以及过去五年的巨大力量。
Now, the main highway that is communicating the state of the body with the brain has been uncovered as being what we now refer to as the gut-brain axis, and the highway is a specific bundle of nerves which emerge from the vagal ganglia, the nodose ganglia.
现在，我们发现，将身体状态与大脑进行交流的主要高速公路就是我们现在所说的肠脑轴，而这条高速公路是从迷走神经节（结状神经节）发出的特定神经束。
And so it's the vagus nerve that it's innervating the majority of the organs in your body.
因此，迷走神经支配着身体的大部分器官。
It's monitoring their function, sending a signal to the brain, and now the brain going back down and saying, "This is going all right, do this," or "This is not going so well, do that."
它监视它们的功能，向大脑发送信号，然后大脑回过头来说，“一切顺利，做这个”，或者“进展不太顺利，做那个”。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I should point out, as you well know, every organ, spleen, pancreas, lungs-
我应该指出，正如你所知，每个器官，脾脏，胰腺，肺——
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
They all must be monitored.
他们都必须受到监控。
In fact, I now, I have no doubt that diseases that we have normally associated with metabolism, physiology, and even immunity are likely to emerge as diseases, conditions, states of the brain.
事实上，我现在，我毫不怀疑，我们通常认为与新陈代谢、生理学、甚至免疫有关的疾病，很可能会以大脑的疾病、状况、状态的形式出现。
I don't think obesity is a disease of metabolism.
我不认为肥胖是一种新陈代谢疾病。
I believe obesity is a disease of brain circuits.
我认为肥胖是一种脑回路疾病。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I do as well.
我也一样。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
And so this view that we have been working on for the longest time because the molecules that we're dealing with are in the body, not in the head, led us to view, of course, these issues and problems as being one of metabolism, physiology, and so forth.
因此，我们长期以来一直在研究的这种观点是因为我们正在处理的分子位于体内，而不是头部，当然，这使我们将这些问题视为新陈代谢、生理学等问题之一。
They remain to be the carriers of the ultimate signal, but the brain ultimately appears to be the conductor of this orchestra of physiology and metabolism.
它们仍然是最终信号的载体，但大脑最终似乎是这个生理和新陈代谢管弦乐队的指挥。
All right.
好的。
Now, let's go to the gut-brain and sugar.
现在，让我们来看看肠脑和糖。
May we?
我们可以吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Please.
请。
Please.
请。
The vagus nerve, in popular culture, has been kind of converted into this single meaning of calming pathways, mostly because I actually have to tip my hat to the yogic community, was among the first to talk about vagus on and on and on.
在流行文化中，迷走神经已经被转化为平静路径的单一含义，主要是因为我实际上必须向瑜伽界致敬，我是第一个不断谈论迷走神经的人之一。
There are calming pathways of so-called parasympathetic pathways within the vagus.
迷走神经内有所谓的副交感神经通路的镇静通路。
But I think that the more we learn about the vagus, the more it seems like an entire set of neural connections as opposed to one nerve.
但我认为，我们对迷走神经了解得越多，它就越像是一整套神经连接，而不是一条神经。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
You got it.
你明白了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I just wanted to just mention that because I think a lot of people have heard about the vagus.
我只是想提一下，因为我想很多人都听说过迷走神经。
Turns out experimentally in the laboratory, many neuroscientists will stimulate the vagus to create states of alertness and arousal when animals or even people, believe it or not, are close to dying or going into coma.
实验室的实验结果表明，当动物甚至人类（不管你信不信）濒临死亡或陷入昏迷时，许多神经科学家会刺激迷走神经，使其产生警觉和觉醒状态。
Stimulation of the vagus is one of the ways to wake up the brain, counter to the idea that it's just this way of calming oneself down.
刺激迷走神经是唤醒大脑的方法之一，这与“这只是让自己平静下来的方式”的观点相反。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Well, and also, of course, one has to be cautious there in that.
嗯，当然，人们必须对此保持谨慎。
So the vagus nerve is made out of many thousands of fibers, individual fibers that make this gigantic bundle.
因此，迷走神经是由成千上万的纤维组成的，这些纤维构成了这个巨大的神经束。
And it's likely, as we're speaking, that each of these fibers carries a slightly different meaning.
正如我们所说，这些纤维中的每一种都有可能略有不同的含义。
Not necessarily one by one, maybe five fibers, 10 fibers, 20 do the ...
不一定是一根一根的，也许是5根纤维、10根纤维、20根……
All right.
好吧。
But they carry meaning that's associated with their specific task.
但它们具有与其特定任务相关的意义。
This group of fibers is telling the brain about the state of your heart.
这组纤维告诉大脑您的心脏状态。
This group of fiber is telling the brain about the state of your gut.
这组纤维告诉大脑肠道的状态。
This is telling your brain about its nutritional state.
这是在告诉您的大脑其营养状况。
This, your pancreas.
这个，你的胰腺。
This, your lungs.
这个，你的肺。
And they are, again, to make the same simple example, the keys of this piano.
他们再次举同样简单的例子，这架钢琴的琴键。
Yes, you're right, there is a lot of data showing that activating the entire vagal bundle has very meaningful effects in a wide range of conditions.
是的，你是对的，有大量数据表明，激活整个迷走神经束在多种情况下都具有非常有意义的效果。
In fact, it's being used to treat untractable depression.
事实上，它被用来治疗难治性抑郁症。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Little stimulator.
小刺激器。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Epileptic seizures.
癫痫发作。
But again, there are thousands of fibers carrying different functions.
但同样，有数千种纤维具有不同的功能。
So to some degree, this is like turning the lights on the stadium because you need to illuminate where you lost your keys under your seat, yet 10,000 bulbs of 1,000 watts each have just come on.
所以在某种程度上，这就像打开体育场的灯，因为你需要照亮你在座位下丢失钥匙的地方，但 10,000 个 1,000 瓦的灯泡刚刚亮起。
Only one of these is pointing to where, and so I'm lucky enough that one of them happened to point to my site.
其中只有一个指向哪里，所以我很幸运，其中一个恰好指向我的网站。
So here you activate the bundle of thousands of fibers.
所以在这里你激活了数千根纤维束。
I'm lucky enough that some of those happen to do something to make a meaningful difference in depression or to make a meaningful difference in epileptics.
我很幸运，其中一些人碰巧做了一些事情，对抑郁症或癫痫症产生了有意义的影响。
But it should not be misconstrued as arguing that this broad activation has any type of selectivity or specificity.
但它不应该被误解为认为这种广泛的激活具有任何类型的选择性或特异性。
We're just lucky enough that among all the things that are being done, some of those happen to change the biology of these processes.
我们很幸运，在我们正在做的所有事情中，其中一些恰好改变了这些过程的生物学原理。
Now, the reason this is relevant, because the magic of this gut-brain axis is the fact that you have these thousands of fibers really doing different functions.
现在，这是相关的，因为肠-脑轴的神奇之处在于，你拥有这数千条纤维，它们确实发挥着不同的功能。
And our goal, and along with many other great scientists including Steve Liberles that started a lot of this molecular dissection on this vagal gut-brain communication line at Harvard, is trying to uncover what are each of those lines doing.
我们的目标，以及包括史蒂夫·利伯尔斯在内的许多其他伟大科学家，在哈佛大学对迷走神经肠脑通讯线路进行了大量分子解剖，试图揭示每条线路的作用。
What are each of those keys of this piano playing?
这架钢琴弹奏时的每个琴键是什么？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What's the latest there, just as a brief update?
最新消息是什么，只是简短的更新吗？
I know Steven Liberles I think I was there when he got his Howard Hughes, and I did not.
我认识史蒂文·利伯尔斯，我想当他得到霍华德·休斯时我就在场，但我没有。
So that was fun.
所以这很有趣。
Always great to get beat by excellent people.
被优秀的人击败总是很棒的。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
First of all, I'm happy you didn't because that way you can focus on this amazing podcast.
首先，我很高兴你没有这样做，因为这样你就可以专注于这个精彩的播客。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, thank you.
嗯，谢谢。
That's very gracious of you.
你真是太仁慈了。
It always feels better, if not good, to get beat out by excellent people.
被优秀的人击败总是感觉更好，即使不是很好。
Steven is second to none, and he is defining, as you said, the molecular constituents of different elements of these many fibers.
史蒂文是首屈一指的，正如您所说，他正在定义这些纤维的不同元素的分子成分。
Is there an update there?
那里有更新吗？
Are they finding multiple parallel pathways?
他们是否找到了多个平行路径？
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
They are.
他们是。
Some that control heartbeat, some that control the respiratory cycle, some that might be involved in gastric movement.
有些控制心跳，有些控制呼吸周期，有些可能参与胃运动。
This notion that you're full and you feel full in part because your gut gets distended, your stomach, for example.
这种观念认为，你已经饱了，而你感到饱的部分原因是你的肠道（例如胃）膨胀了。
And then there are little sensors that are reading that and telling the brain you're full.
然后有一些小传感器正在读取数据并告诉大脑你已经吃饱了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Fantastic.
太棒了。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So the textbooks will soon change on the basis of the Liberlese and other work.
因此，教科书很快就会在 Liberlese 和其他作品的基础上发生变化。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
In essence, I think we are learning enough about these lines that could really help put together this holistic view of how the brain, it's truly changing body physiology, metabolism, and immunity.
从本质上讲，我认为我们对这些线条有了足够的了解，这确实有助于形成大脑如何真正改变身体生理、新陈代谢和免疫力的整体观点。
The part that hasn't been yet developed and that it needs a fair amount of work, but it's an exciting, thrilling journey of discovery, is how the signal comes back to now change that biology.
尚未开发的部分需要大量的工作，但这是一次令人兴奋、激动人心的发现之旅，即信号返回后如何改变生物学。
The example I gave you before with Pavlov's dog.
我之前给你举过巴甫洛夫的狗的例子。
All right?
好的？
I figure out how the association created this link between the bell, but then how does the brain tell the pancreas to release in the right amount of insulin?
我弄清楚了这种关联是如何在铃声之间建立这种联系的，但是大脑如何告诉胰腺释放适量的胰岛素呢？
Okay.
好的。
Let me tell you about the gut-brain axis and our insatiable appetite for sugar and fat.
让我告诉你肠脑轴以及我们对糖和脂肪的贪得无厌的胃口。
Insatiable for sugar, unquenchable for fat.
对糖无法满足，对脂肪无法抑制。
And this is a story about the fundamental difference between liking and wanting.
这是一个关于喜欢和想要之间根本区别的故事。
Liking sugar is the function of the taste system.
喜欢吃糖是味觉系统的功能。
And it's not really liking sugar, it's liking sweet.
而且它并不是真的喜欢糖，而是喜欢甜的。
Wanting sugar, our never-ending appetite for sugar, is the story of the gut-brain axis.
想要糖，我们对糖永无休止的胃口，就是肠-脑轴的故事。
Liking versus wanting.
喜欢与想要。
And this work is work of my own laboratory that began long ago when we discovered the sweet receptors.
这项工作是我自己实验室的工作，很久以前我们发现甜味受体时就开始了。
And you can now engineer mice that lack these receptors.
现在您可以改造缺乏这些受体的小鼠。
So in essence, these animals will be unable to taste sweet.
所以从本质上讲，这些动物将无法尝到甜味。
A life without sweetness.
没有甜蜜的生活。
How horrible.
多么可怕啊。
Okay?
好的？
And if you give a normal mouse a bottle containing sweet, and we're going to put either sugar or an artificial sweetener.
如果你给一只普通的老鼠一个装有甜食的瓶子，我们就会放糖或人造甜味剂。
All right?
好的？
They both are sweet.
他们俩都很甜蜜。
They have slightly different tastes, but that's simply because artificial sweeteners have some off tastes.
它们的味道略有不同，但这只是因为人造甜味剂有一些异味。
But as far as the sweet receptor is concerned, they both activate the same receptor, trigger the same signal.
但就甜味受体而言，它们都激活相同的受体，触发相同的信号。
And if you give an animal an option of a bottle containing sugar or a sweetener versus water, this animal will drink 10 to one from the bottle containing sweet.
如果你给动物一个选择，是含糖或甜味剂的瓶子还是水，那么该动物会以 10 比 1 的比例喝含糖或甜味剂的瓶子。
That's the taste system.
这就是味觉系统。
Animal goes, samples each one, licks a couple of licks, and then says, "Uh-uh, that's the one I want because it's appetitive and because I love it."
动物走过去，尝了尝，舔了几口，然后说：“呃呃，这就是我想要的，因为它很有食欲，而且我喜欢它。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So it prefers sugar to artificial sweetener?
那么它更喜欢糖而不是人造甜味剂？
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
No.
不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No?
没有？
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
No.
不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Equally artificial s-
同样是人造的——
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
In this experiment-
在这个实验中——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
...
...
I'm going to put only sweet in one bottle, and it could be either sugar or artificial sweetener.
我将只在一个瓶子里放甜食，它可以是糖，也可以是人造甜味剂。
It doesn't matter which one.
哪一个并不重要。
Okay?
好的？
We're going to do the next experiment where we separate those two.
我们将进行下一个实验，将这两者分开。
For now, it's sweet versus water.
现在，它是甜的还是水的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
And sweet means sweet, not sugar.
而且甜的意思是甜的，不是糖。
Sweet means anything that tastes sweet.
甜是指任何尝起来甜的东西。
All right?
好的？
And sugar is one example, and Splenda is another example.
糖就是一个例子，Splenda 是另一个例子。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Aspartame, monk fruit-
阿斯巴甜、罗汉果——
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
You got it.
你明白了。
All right
好吧
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
stevia.
甜叶菊。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
You give-
你给-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Doesn't matter.
没关系。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
There's some that only humans can taste, mice cannot taste.
有些东西只有人类才能尝到，老鼠却尝不到。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Interesting.
有趣。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Because their receptors between humans and mice are different.
因为人类和小鼠的受体是不同的。
But we have put the human receptor into mice.
但我们已经将人类受体植入小鼠体内。
We engineer mice, and we completely humanize this mouse's taste world.
我们对老鼠进行了工程设计，并将这只老鼠的味觉世界完全人性化。
All right?
好的？
But for the purpose of this conversation, we're only comparing sweet versus water.
但出于本次谈话的目的，我们只是比较甜和水。
An option, my goodness, they will lick to no end from the sweet side, 10 to one at least versus the water.
一个选择，我的天哪，他们会从甜的一面舔到底，至少与水是十比一。
Make sense?
有道理吗？
All right.
好的。
Now, we're going to take the mice, and we're going to genetically engineer it to remove the sweet receptors.
现在，我们要对老鼠进行基因改造，去除甜味受体。
So these mice no longer have in their oral cavity any sensors that can detect sweetness, be that sugar molecule, be it an artificial sweetener, be it anything else that tastes sweet.
因此，这些小鼠的口腔中不再有任何可以检测甜味的传感器，无论是糖分子，还是人造甜味剂，无论是其他尝起来甜的东西。
And if you give these mice an option between sweet versus water, sugar versus water, artificial sweetener versus water, it will drink equally well from both because it cannot tell them apart, because it doesn't have the receptors for sweet, so that sweet bottle tastes just like water.
如果你让这些老鼠在甜水和水、糖和水、人造甜味剂和水之间做出选择，它们会同样好地喝这两种饮料，因为它无法区分它们，因为它没有甜味受体，所以甜瓶子的味道就像水一样。
Make sense?
有道理吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Makes sense.
有道理。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Very good.
非常好。
Now, we're going to do the experiment with sugar.
现在，我们要用糖做实验。
From now on, let's focus on sugar.
从现在开始，让我们专注于糖。
So I'm going to give a mouse now sugar versus water.
所以我现在要给老鼠喂糖和水。
Normal mouse will drink from the sugar, sugar, sugar, sugar.
正常的老鼠会喝糖、糖、糖、糖。
Very little from the water.
来自水的很少。
Knock out the sweet receptors, eliminate them, mouse can no longer tell them apart, and they will drink from both.
敲除甜味受体，消除它们，老鼠就无法再区分它们，它们就会喝两者的饮料。
But if I keep the mouse in that cage for the next 48 hours, something extraordinary happens when I come 48 hours later and I see what the mouse is licking or drinking from.
但是，如果我在接下来的 48 小时内将老鼠关在笼子里，当 48 小时后我回来看到老鼠在舔什么或喝什么时，就会发生一些不寻常的事情。
That mouse is drinking almost exclusively from the sugar bottle.
那只老鼠几乎只喝糖瓶里的水。
How could this be?
怎么会这样？
It cannot taste it.
它尝不到它的味道。
Doesn't have sweet receptors.
没有甜味受体。
During those 48 hours, the mouse learn that there is something in that bottle that makes me feel good, and that is the bottle I want to consume.
在这 48 小时内，老鼠得知瓶子里有某种东西让我感觉良好，那就是我想喝的瓶子。
Now, how does the mouse identify that bottle?
现在，老鼠如何识别那个瓶子？
It does so by using other sensory features.
它通过使用其他感官特征来做到这一点。
The smell of the bottle, the texture of the solution inside.
瓶子的气味，里面溶液的质地。
Sugar at high concentrations is kind of goopy.
高浓度的糖有点粘稠。
Okay?
好的？
The sidness in which the bottle is in the cage.
瓶子被关在笼子里的温馨。
It doesn't matter what, but the mouse realize there is something there that makes me feel good, and that's what I want.
是什么并不重要，但老鼠意识到那里有某种东西让我感觉良好，而这就是我想要的。
And that is the fundamental basis of our unquenchable desire and our craving for sugar, and is mediated by the gut-brain axis.
这是我们无法抑制的欲望和对糖的渴望的根本基础，并且是由肠脑轴介导的。
The first clue is that it takes a long time to develop, immediately suggesting a post-ingestive effect.
第一个线索是它需要很长时间才能形成，这立即表明存在摄入后效应。
So we reason, if this is true, and it's the gut-brain axis that's driving sugar preference, then there should be a group of neurons in the brain that are responding to post-ingestive sugar.
因此我们推断，如果这是真的，并且是肠脑轴驱动了对糖的偏好，那么大脑中应该有一组神经元对摄入后的糖做出反应。
And lo and behold, we identify a group of neurons in the brain that does this, and these neurons receive their input directly from the gut-brain axis.
你瞧，我们在大脑中识别出了一组执行此操作的神经元，这些神经元直接从肠脑轴接收输入。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
From other neurons.
来自其他神经元。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
You got it.
你明白了。
And so what's happening is that sugar is recognized normally by the tongue, activates an appetitive response.
所以发生的情况是，舌头正常地识别糖，激活食欲反应。
Now you ingest it, and now it activates a selective group of cells in your intestines that now send a signal to the brain via the vagal ganglia that says, "I got what I need." The tongue doesn't know that you got what you need.
现在你摄入它，它会激活你肠道中的一组选择性细胞，这些细胞现在通过迷走神经节向大脑发送信号，说：“我得到了我需要的东西。”舌头不知道你得到了你需要的东西。
It only knows that you tasted it.
它只知道你尝过它的味道。
This knows that it got to the point that it's going to be used, which is the gut.
这个知道到了要用的地步，这就是肠道。
And now it sends the signal to now reinforce the consumption of this thing because this is the one that I needed, sugar, source of energy.
现在它发出了信号，要求加强对这个东西的消耗，因为这是我需要的，糖，能量来源。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And are these neurons in the gut?
这些神经元是在肠道中吗？
Are they-
他们是——
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
So these are not neurons in the gut.
所以这些不是肠道中的神经元。
So these are gut cells that recognize the sugar molecule-
所以这些是识别糖分子的肠道细胞-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I see
我明白了
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
...
...
send a signal, and that signal is received by the vagal neuron directly.
发送信号，该信号直接被迷走神经元接收。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Got it.
明白了。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
And this sends a signal through the gut-brain axis to the cell bodies of these neurons in the vagal ganglia, and from there to the brainstem to now trigger the preference for sugar.
这会通过肠脑轴向迷走神经节中这些神经元的细胞体发送信号，并从那里到脑干，从而触发对糖的偏好。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Two questions.
两个问题。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
One, you mentioned that these cells that detect sugar within the gut are actually within the intestine.
第一，您提到这些检测肠道内糖的细胞实际上位于肠道内。
You didn't say-
你没有说——
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
stomach.
胃。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Which surprised me.
这让我很惊讶。
I always think gut as stomach, but of course-
我一直认为肠道就是胃，但是当然-
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
I know.
我知道。
No
否
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
intestines.
肠子。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
They're intestine because that's where all the absorption happens.
它们是肠道，因为那是所有吸收发生的地方。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Got it.
明白了。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
So you want the signal...
所以你想要信号...
You see, you want the brain to know that you had successful ingestion and breakdown of whatever you consume into the building blocks of life.
你看，你希望大脑知道你已经成功摄入并分解了你摄入的任何东西，形成了生命的组成部分。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
And glucose, amino acids, fat.
还有葡萄糖、氨基酸、脂肪。
And so you want to make sure that once they are in the form that intestines can now absorb them, is where you get the signal back saying, "This is what I want." Okay?
因此，您要确保一旦它们形成肠道可以吸收它们的形式，您就可以收到信号说：“这就是我想要的。”好的？
Now, let me just take it one step further.
现在，让我更进一步。
And this now sugar molecules activates this unique gut-brain circuit that now drives the development of our preference for sugar.
现在，这种糖分子激活了这种独特的肠脑回路，从而推动了我们对糖的偏好的发展。
Now, a key element of this circuit is that the sensors in the gut that recognize the sugar do not recognize artificial sweeteners at all.
现在，该电路的一个关键要素是肠道中识别糖的传感器根本不识别人造甜味剂。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because their nutrient value is uncoupled from the taste.
因为它们的营养价值与味道无关。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Generically speaking, one can make that bet.
一般来说，人们可以下这样的赌注。
It's because it's a very different type of receptor.
这是因为它是一种非常不同类型的受体。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I see.
我明白了。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Turns out that it's not the tongue receptors being used in the gut.
事实证明，肠道中使用的并不是舌头感受器。
It's a completely different molecule that only recognizes the glucose molecule, not artificial sweeteners.
这是一种完全不同的分子，只识别葡萄糖分子，而不识别人造甜味剂。
This has a profound impact on the effect of ultimately artificial sweeteners in curbing our appetite, our craving, our insatiable desire for sugar.
这对最终人造甜味剂抑制我们的食欲、渴望和对糖的贪得无厌的欲望产生了深远的影响。
Since they don't activate the gut-brain axis, they'll never satisfy the craving for sugar like sugar does.
由于它们不会激活肠-脑轴，因此它们永远不会像糖那样满足对糖的渴望。
And the reason I believe that artificial sweeteners have failed in the market to curb our appetite, our need, our desire for sugar, is because they beautifully work on the tongue, the liking to recognize sweet versus non-sweet, but they fail to activate the key sensors in the gut that now inform the brain, "You got sugar, no need to crave anymore."
我相信市场上的人造甜味剂未能抑制我们的食欲、我们的需要、我们对糖的渴望，是因为它们对舌头有很好的作用，喜欢识别甜与不甜，但它们无法激活肠道中的关键传感器，这些传感器现在告诉大脑，“你有糖，不再需要渴望了。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So the issue of wanting-
所以想要的问题——
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
can we relate that to a particular set of neurochemicals upstream of...
我们能否将其与……上游的一组特定的神经化学物质联系起来？
So the pathway is glucose is activating these cells in the gut, through the vagus, that's communicated through presumably the nodose ganglion and up into the brainstem.
因此，葡萄糖的途径是通过迷走神经激活肠道中的这些细胞，迷走神经可能通过结节神经节向上进入脑干。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Very good.
非常好。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And-
还有——
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
And from there, where does it go?
从那里，它会去哪里？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Where does it go, and what is the substrate of wanting?
它去哪里了，想要的基础是什么？
Of course, I think molecules like dopamine, craving.
当然，我认为像多巴胺这样的分子会产生渴望。
There's a book even called "The Molecule of More," et cetera.
有一本书甚至叫做“更多的分子”等等。
Dopamine is a very diabolical molecule, as you know, because it evokes both a sense of pleasure-ish, but also a sense of desiring more, of craving.
如你所知，多巴胺是一种非常邪恶的分子，因为它既能唤起一种愉悦感，又能唤起一种渴望更多的感觉。
So, if I understand you correctly, artificial sweeteners are, and I agree, are failing as a means to satisfy sugar craving at the level of nutrient sensing.
所以，如果我理解正确的话，我同意，人工甜味剂在营养感知层面上无法满足对糖的渴望。
And yet, if we trigger this true sugar-evoked wanting pathway too much- And we've all experienced this, then we eat sugar, and we find ourselves wanting more and more sugar.
然而，如果我们过多地触发这种真正的糖引起的欲望途径——我们都经历过这种情况，那么我们吃糖，然后发现自己想要越来越多的糖。
Now, that could also be insulin dysregulation, but can we uncouple those?
现在，这也可能是胰岛素失调，但我们可以将它们分开吗？
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Look, if we have a mega problem with overconsumption of sugar and fat.
看看我们是否存在糖和脂肪过度消耗的大问题。
We're facing a unique time in our evolution where diseases of malnutrition are due to overnutrition.
我们正面临着进化过程中的一个独特时期，营养不良疾病是由于营养过剩造成的。
How nuts is that?
这有多疯狂？
Historically, diseases of malnutritions have always been linked to undernutrition.
从历史上看，营养不良疾病一直与营养不良有关。
And so we need to come up with strategies that can meaningfully change the activation of these circuits that control our wanting, certainly in the populations at risk.
因此，我们需要想出一些策略，能够有意义地改变这些控制我们需求的回路的激活，尤其是在高危人群中。
And this gut-brain circuit that ultimately, it's the lines of communication that are informing the brain, the presence of intestinal sugar in this example.
这个肠脑回路最终是通过通讯线路通知大脑，在这个例子中肠道糖的存在。
It's a very important target in the way we think about, is there a way that we can meaningfully modulate these circuits?
这是我们思考方式中非常重要的目标，有没有一种方法可以有效地调节这些电路？
So I make your brain think that you got satisfied with sugar even though I'm not giving you sugar.
所以我让你的大脑认为你对糖感到满意，即使我没有给你糖。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So that immediately raises the question, are the receptors for glucose in these gut cells susceptible to other things that are healthier for us?
因此，这就立即提出了一个问题，这些肠道细胞中的葡萄糖受体是否容易受到其他对我们更健康的事物的影响？
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
That's very good.
那很好。
Excellent idea, and I think an important goal will be to come up with a strategy and identify those very means that allow us to modulate the circuits in a way that certainly for all of those where this is a big issue, it can really have a dramatic impact in improving human health.
好主意，我认为一个重要的目标将是提出一项策略并确定那些使我们能够以某种方式调节回路的方法，对于所有那些这是一个大问题的人来说，它确实可以对改善人类健康产生巨大的影响。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I could be wrong about this-
我可能是错的——
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and I'm happy to be wrong.
我很高兴我错了。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm often wrong.
我经常错。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And told I'm wrong.
并告诉我错了。
That we have cells within our gut that don't just sense sugar, glucose, to be specific, but also cells within our gut that sense amino acids and fatty acids.
我们肠道内的细胞不仅能感知糖、葡萄糖，而且肠道内还有能感知氨基酸和脂肪酸的细胞。
I could imagine a scenario where one could train themselves to feel immense amounts of satiety from the consumption of foods that are rich in essential fatty acids, amino acids, perhaps less caloric or less insulin dysregulating than sugar.
我可以想象这样一种情况，人们可以训练自己通过食用富含必需脂肪酸、氨基酸的食物来感到巨大的饱腹感，也许比糖的热量或胰岛素失调更少。
I'll use myself as an example.
我将以我自己为例。
I've always enjoyed sweets, but in the last few years, for some reason, I've started to lose my appetite for them, probably because I just don't eat them anymore.
我一直很喜欢甜食，但在过去的几年里，由于某种原因，我开始对它们失去了胃口，可能是因为我不再吃它们了。
At first, that took some restriction.
起初，这需要一些限制。
Now I just don't even think about it.
现在我什至不去想它。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Yeah, and you're not reinforcing those circuits.
是的，你并没有加强这些电路。
And so you, in essence, are removing yourself.
所以你本质上是在移除你自己。
But you tend to be the exception.
但你往往是例外。
We have a huge, incredibly large number of people that are being continuously exposed to highly processed foods, yeah?
我们有大量的人不断接触高度加工的食品，是吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And so-called hidden sugars.
还有所谓的隐藏糖。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
They don't even have to be hidden.
它们甚至不必隐藏。
It's right there.
它就在那里。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hiding in plain sight.
隐藏在众目睽睽之下。
Yeah, I agree.
是的，我同意。
So much is made of hidden sugars that we often overlook that there are also the overt sugars.
隐藏的糖分含量如此之多，以至于我们常常忽视了显性糖分的存在。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
We can have a long discussion on the importance of coming up with strategies that could meaningfully change public health when it comes to nutrition.
我们可以就制定能够在营养方面有意义地改变公共卫生的策略的重要性进行长时间的讨论。
But I want to just go back to the notion of these brain centers that are ultimately the ones that are being activated by these essential nutrients.
但我想回到这些大脑中心的概念，这些大脑中心最终是被这些必需营养素激活的。
So sugar, fat, and amino acids are building blocks of our diets, and this is across all animal species.
因此，糖、脂肪和氨基酸是我们饮食的组成部分，这适用于所有动物物种。
So it's not unreasonable then to assume that dedicated brain circuits would have evolved to ensure their recognition, their ingestion, and the reinforcement that that is what I need.
因此，假设专用的大脑回路会进化来确保它们的识别、摄取以及我所需要的强化，这并不是没有道理的。
And indeed, animals evolve these two systems.
事实上，动物进化出了这两个系统。
One is the taste system that allows you to recognize them and trigger these predetermined, hardwired, immediate responses.
其中之一是味觉系统，它可以让你识别它们并触发这些预先确定的、固有的、即时的反应。
Yes?
是的？
"Oh my goodness, this tastes so good.
“天哪，这味道真好。
It's so sweet." I personally have a sweet tooth, may I add.
真是太甜了。”我个人喜欢吃甜食，我可以补充一下。
And, "Oh my God, this is so delicious.
而且，“天哪，这太美味了。
It's fatty." Or umami, recognizing amino acids.
是胖了。”或者鲜味，识别氨基酸。
So that's the liking pathway.
这就是喜欢的途径。
But in the wisdom of evolution, that's good but doesn't quite do it.
但从进化的智慧来看，这很好，但还不够。
You want to make sure that these things get to the place where they're needed, and they're not needed in your tongue.
你要确保这些东西到达需要它们的地方，并且它们在你的舌头上不需要。
They are needed in your intestines where they are going to be absorbed as the nutrients that will support life.
您的肠道需要它们，它们将作为维持生命的营养物质被吸收。
And the brain wants to know this, and it wants to know it in a way that it can now form the association between that that I just tasted ...
大脑想要知道这一点，并且想要以一种现在可以在我刚刚尝到的东西之间形成关联的方式来了解它......
is what gut where it needs to be, and it makes me feel good.
这就是肠道所需要的，这让我感觉很好。
And so now, next time that I have to choose what should I eat, that association now guides me to, that's the one I want.
所以现在，下次我必须选择我应该吃什么时，这种关联现在会引导我，那就是我想要的。
I want that fruit, not that fruit.
我想要那个水果，不是那个水果。
I want those leaves, not those leaves, because these are the ones that activate the right circuits that ensure that the right nutrients got to the right place and told the brain, "This is what I want and need." Are we on?
我想要那些叶子，而不是那些叶子，因为这些叶子可以激活正确的电路，确保正确的营养物质到达正确的位置，并告诉大脑：“这就是我想要和需要的。”我们在吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We're on.
我们开始了。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
All right.
好吧。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
One thing that intrigues me and puzzles me-
有一件事情让我着迷又困惑——
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
is that this effect took a couple of days, at least in mice.
是这种效果需要几天的时间，至少在老鼠身上是这样。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And the sensation, sorry, the perception of taste-
还有感觉，抱歉，味觉——
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Yes, is immediate
是的，是立即的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
is immediate, and yet this is a slow system.
是即时的，但这是一个缓慢的系统。
And so in a beautiful way, but in a kind of mysterious way-
所以以一种美丽的方式，但以一种神秘的方式——
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Why?
为什么？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
the brain is able to couple the taste of a sweet drink-
大脑能够将甜饮料的味道结合起来-
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
with the experience of nutrient extraction in the gut under a context where the mouse and the human is presumably ingesting other things, smelling other mice-
在老鼠和人类可能摄入其他东西、闻其他老鼠的情况下，在肠道中提取营养的经验——
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Totally
完全
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
smelling other people.
闻其他人的气味。
That's incredible.
那真是难以置信。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Yeah, but you have to think of it not as humans.
是的，但你不能把它当作人类来看待。
Remember, we inherited the circuits of our ancestors, and they, through evolutionary, from their ancestors, and we haven't had that many years to have fundamentally change in many of these hardwire circuits.
请记住，我们继承了我们祖先的电路，而他们通过进化从他们的祖先那里继承了电路，而我们没有那么多年的时间来从根本上改变许多这些硬线电路。
So forget us humans, let's look at animals in the wild, okay?
所以忘记我们人类吧，让我们看看野生动物，好吗？
Which is easier now to comprehend the logic.
现在更容易理解其中的逻辑了。
Why should this take a long time of continued reinforcement given that I can taste it in a second?
既然我可以在一秒钟内尝到它，为什么要花很长时间持续强化呢？
You want to make sure that this source of sugar, for example, in the wild is the best, is the richest, is the one where I get the most energy for the least amount of extraction, the least amount of work.
你要确保这种糖的来源，例如，在野外是最好的，是最丰富的，是我以最少的提取量和最少的工作量获得最多能量的来源。
I want to identify rich sources of sugar, and if the system simply responds immediately to the first sugar that gets to your gut, you're going to form the association with those sources of food, which are not the ones that you should be eating from.
我想识别丰富的糖来源，如果系统只是对进入你肠道的第一个糖立即做出反应，你就会与这些食物来源建立联系，而这些食物来源不是你应该吃的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Don't fall in love with the first person you encounter.
不要爱上你遇到的第一个人。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Oh my goodness, exactly.
哦，我的天哪，完全正确。
And so evolutionarily, by having the taste system giving you the immediate recognition, but then by forcing this gut-brain axis to reinforce it only when sustained in a repeated exposure has informed the brain, this is the one you don't want to form the association before.
因此，从进化的角度来看，通过让味觉系统给你立即识别，但只有在持续重复接触的情况下，才迫使肠脑轴强化它，从而通知大脑，这是你以前不希望形成的关联。
And so, when we remove it from the context of we now we just go to the supermarket.
所以，当我们把它从我们现在的背景中删除时，我们就去超市。
We're not hunting there in the wild where I need to form.
我们不是在我需要组建的野外狩猎。
And so what's happening is that highly processed foods are hijacking, co-opting these circuits in a way that it would have never happened in nature.
因此，正在发生的事情是，高度加工的食品正在以一种在自然界中从未发生过的方式劫持和利用这些电路。
And then we not only find these things appetitive and palatable, but in addition, we are continuously reinforcing the wanting in a way that, "Oh my God, this is so great.
然后，我们不仅发现这些东西令人胃口大开、可口，而且，我们不断地强化这种渴望，“天哪，这太棒了。
What do I feel like eating?
我想吃什么？
Let me have more of this."
让我再多吃点这个吧。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You've just forever changed the way that I think about supermarkets and restaurants.
你永远改变了我对超市和餐馆的看法。
Understanding this fast signaling and this slower signaling, and the utility of having both, makes me realize that supermarkets and restaurants are about the most unnatural thing for our system ever.
了解这种快速信号和这种较慢信号，以及两者兼有的效用，让我意识到超市和餐馆对于我们的系统来说是最不自然的事情。
Almost the equivalent of living in small villages with very few suitable mates versus online dating, for instance.
例如，这几乎相当于生活在很少有合适伴侣的小村庄与网上约会。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Look, I'm not going to make a judgment call there because they do serve an important purpose.
看，我不会在那里做出判断，因为它们确实有一个重要的目的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I like restaurants, too.
我也喜欢餐馆。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
And so do supermarkets, thank God.
感谢上帝，超市也是如此。
I think they're not the culprits.
我认为他们不是罪魁祸首。
I think the culprits, of course, are our reliance on foods that are not necessarily healthy.
我认为罪魁祸首当然是我们对不一定健康的食物的依赖。
Now, going back to the supermarket, the don't fall in love with the first, they need to work.
现在，回到超市，不要爱上第一个，他们需要工作。
You take a tangerine, and you take an extract of tangerine that you used to cook that's spiked, let's say, with sugar.
你拿一个橘子，然后取出你用来烹饪的橘子提取物，比如说，加了糖。
And you equalize in both where they both provide the same amount of calories.
并且两者都提供相同量的卡路里，从而实现均衡。
If you eat them both, they're going to have a very different effect in your gut-brain axis and your system.
如果你同时吃它们，它们会对你的肠-脑轴和你的系统产生非常不同的影响。
Once you make the extract and you process it, and you add it, processed sugar, to use it now to cook, to add, to make a really sweet tangerine thing.
一旦你制作了提取物并对其进行了加工，然后添加了加工过的糖，现在就可以用它来烹饪、添加、制作一种非常甜的橘子东西。
Now, you're providing now a fully ready-to-use, broken-down source of sugar.
现在，您正在提供完全即用型的分解糖源。
In the tangerine, that sugar is mixed in the complexity of a whole set of other chemical components Fiber, long chains of sugar molecules that need a huge amount of work by your stomach, your gut system, to break it down.
在橘子中，糖与一整套其他化学成分的复杂性混合在一起。纤维是糖分子的长链，需要您的胃和肠道系统进行大量工作才能将其分解。
So you're using a huge amount of energy to extract energy.
所以你正在使用大量的能量来提取能量。
And the balance, it's very different than when I take this processed, highly extracted tangerine.
和我服用这种经过加工、高度提取的橘子时的平衡非常不同。
By the way, I used tangerines because I had a tangerine just before I came here.
顺便说一句，我用的是橘子，因为我来之前就有一个橘子。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Delicious.
好吃。
They are delicious.
它们很好吃。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
And so this goes back to the issue of supermarkets.
这又回到了超市的问题。
And so to some degree, A, given a choice, you don't want to eat highly processed foods because everything's already been broken down for you.
所以在某种程度上，A，如果有选择的话，你不想吃高度加工的食物，因为一切都已经为你分解了。
And so your system has no work.
所以你的系统没有工作。
And so you are co-opting, hijacking these circuits in a way that they're being activated at a timescale that normally wouldn't happen.
所以你正在拉拢、劫持这些电路，使它们在通常不会发生的时间尺度上被激活。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, this is why I often feel that, and I think a lot of data are now starting to support the idea that while indeed the laws of thermodynamics apply, calories ingested versus calories burned is a very real thing, right?
嗯，这就是为什么我经常有这样的感觉，而且我认为现在很多数据开始支持这样的观点：虽然热力学定律确实适用，但摄入的卡路里与燃烧的卡路里是非常真实的事情，对吧？
That the appetite for certain foods and the wanting and the liking are phenomena of the nervous system, brain and gut, as you've beautifully described, and that that changes over time depending on how we are receiving these nutrients.
正如您所描述的那样，对某些食物的食欲以及想要和喜欢是神经系统、大脑和肠道的现象，并且随着时间的推移而变化，具体取决于我们如何接收这些营养物质。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
Look, we have a lot of work to do.
看，我们还有很多工作要做。
I'm talking as a society.
我说的是作为一个社会。
I'm not talking about you and I.
我不是在谈论你和我。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We also have a lot of work to do.
我们还有很多工作要做。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Now.
现在。
I think understanding these circuits is giving us important insights on how ultimately, hopefully, we can improve human health and make a meaningful difference.
我认为了解这些回路可以为我们提供重要的见解，让我们最终能够改善人类健康并做出有意义的改变。
Now, it's very easy to try to connect the dots, A to B, B to C, C to D, and I think there's a lot more complexity to it.
现在，尝试将 A 到 B、B 到 C、C 到 D 等各个点连接起来非常容易，但我认为这要复杂得多。
But I do think that the lessons that are emerging out of understanding how these circuits operate can ultimately inform how we deal with our diets in a way that we avoid what we're facing now as a society.
但我确实认为，从理解这些回路如何运作中得到的教训最终可以告诉我们如何处理我们的饮食，从而避免我们现在作为一个社会所面临的问题。
It's nuts that overnutrition happens to be such a prevalent problem.
营养过剩竟然成为如此普遍的问题，真是太疯狂了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
And I also think the training of people who are thinking about metabolic science and metabolic disease is largely divorced from the training of the neuroscientists and vice versa.
我还认为，对思考代谢科学和代谢疾病的人的培训在很大程度上与神经科学家的培训脱节，反之亦然。
No one field is to blame.
任何一个领域都不应受到指责。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But I fully agree that the brain is the key, or the nervous system, to be more accurate-
但我完全同意大脑是关键，或者更准确地说是神经系统——
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
More accurate
更准确
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
is one of the key overlooked features.
是被忽视的关键功能之一。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
It's the arbiter.
这是仲裁者。
Ultimately, it's the arbiter of many of these pathways.
最终，它是许多途径的仲裁者。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
As a final question, and one which is simply to entertain my curiosity and the curiosity of the listeners, what is your absolute favorite food?
最后一个问题，只是为了满足我和听众的好奇心，你最喜欢的食物是什么？
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Oh my goodness.
天哪。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Taste, I should say.
味道，我应该说。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Taste.
尝尝。
To distinguish between taste and the nutritive value or lack thereof.
区分味道和营养价值或缺乏营养价值。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Yes.
是的。
Look, we, unlike every other animal species, eat for the enjoyment of it.
看，我们与其他动物不同，吃东西是为了享受。
It doesn't happen in the wild.
这在野外不会发生。
Most animals eat when they need to eat.
大多数动物在需要进食时才进食。
Doesn't mean they don't enjoy it, but it's a completely different story, yeah?
并不意味着他们不喜欢它，但这是一个完全不同的故事，是吗？
I have too many favorite foods because I enjoy the sensory experience.
我有太多喜欢的食物，因为我喜欢感官体验。
Rather than the food itself, to me it's the whole thing.
对我来说，这不是食物本身，而是整个事情。
Look, there've been these experiments done in psychophysics.
看，心理物理学领域已经完成了这些实验。
I'm going to take a salad made out of 11 components, and I'm going to mix them all up in a potpourri of greens and other things here.
我要一份由 11 种成分制成的沙拉，然后将它们全部混合在蔬菜和其他东西的大杂烩中。
And then the other one, I'm going to present it in a beautiful arrangement, and then I'm going to put it behind a glass cabinet and I'm going to sell them.
然后另一个，我将以漂亮的布置呈现它，然后我会把它放在玻璃柜后面，然后我要把它们卖掉。
And I'm going to sell one for $2 and one for $8.
我打算以 2 美元的价格出售一件，以 8 美元的价格出售一件。
Precisely the same ingredient, exactly the same amount of each.
完全相同的成分，每种的量完全相同。
Ultimately, you're going to mix them, they're all going to be the same, and people will pay the $8 because, you know what?
最终，你要把它们混合起来，它们都是一样的，人们会支付 8 美元，因为，你知道吗？
It evokes a different person.
它唤起了一个不同的人。
It gives you the feel that, oh my goodness, I'm going to enjoy that salad.
它给你一种感觉，天哪，我要享受那个沙拉了。
So going back to what is my favorite food.
那么回到我最喜欢的食物是什么。
To me, eating is really a sensory journey.
对我来说，吃饭确实是一次感官之旅。
I don't mean every day, let me have some chicken wings because I'm hungry.
我不是说每天都让我吃点鸡翅，因为我饿了。
But every piece, I think, has an important evoking sensory role.
但我认为，每件作品都具有重要的唤起感官作用。
And so in terms of categories of food, I grew up in Chile, so meat has always been...
所以就食物类别而言，我在智利长大，所以肉一直是......
But I eat it so seldom now.
不过我现在很少吃了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is that right?
是这样吗？
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Yeah, because I know that it's not necessarily the healthiest thing.
是的，因为我知道这不一定是最健康的事情。
Red meat I'm talking about, yeah?
我说的是红肉，是吗？
And so I grew up eating it every day.
所以我从小到大每天都吃它。
I'm talking seven days a week.
我说的是每周 7 天。
Chili in Argentina, that's the mainstay of our diet, eh?
在阿根廷，辣椒是我们饮食的支柱，不是吗？
Now maybe I have red meat, I know, once every four weeks.
我知道，现在也许我每四个星期吃一次红肉。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And you enjoy it.
你很享受它。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Oh, I love it.
哦，我喜欢它。
Part of it is because I haven't had it in four weeks, eh?
部分原因是我已经四个星期没有吃东西了，是吗？
But I love sushi, but I love the art of sushi, eh?
但我喜欢寿司，而且我喜欢寿司的艺术，不是吗？
The whole thing, the way it's presented, it changes the way you taste it.
整个事情，它的呈现方式，它改变了你品尝它的方式。
I love ethnic food, in particular.
我特别喜欢民族食品。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You're in the right place.
您来对地方了。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
You got it.
你明白了。
That was the main reason I wanted to come to New York.
这是我想来纽约的主要原因。
No, I'm just kidding.
不，我只是开玩笑。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There's also that Columbia University that's-
还有哥伦比亚大学——
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
I came here because I wanted to be with people that are thinking about the brain the same way that I like to think, which, can we solve this big problem, this big question?
我来到这里是因为我想和那些以我喜欢的方式思考大脑的人在一起，我们能解决这个大问题吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And certainly, you're making amazing strides in that direction.
当然，您正在朝这个方向取得惊人的进步。
And I love your answer because it really brings together the many features of the circuitries and the phenomena we've been talking about today, which is that while it begins with sensation and perception, ultimately it's the context, and that context is highly individual to person, place, and time, and many, many other things.
我喜欢你的答案，因为它确实汇集了我们今天讨论的电路和现象的许多特征，也就是说，虽然它始于感觉和感知，但最终是环境，而这种环境对于人、地点、时间以及许多其他事物来说是高度个体化的。
On behalf of myself, and certainly on behalf of all the listeners, I want to thank you, first of all, for the incredible work that you've been doing now for decades in vision, in taste, and in this bigger issue of how we perceive and experience life.
首先，我代表我自己，当然也代表所有听众，感谢你们几十年来在视野、品味以及我们如何感知和体验生活这一更大问题上所做的令人难以置信的工作。
It's truly pioneering and incredible work, and I feel quite lucky to have been on the sidelines seeing this over the years and hearing the talks and reading the countless beautiful papers.
这是真正的开创性和令人难以置信的工作，我感到非常幸运，多年来我一直在场边看到这一点，听到演讲并阅读无数精彩的论文。
But also for your time today to come down here and talk to us about what drives you and the discoveries you've made.
今天也请您来到这里，与我们谈谈您的动力以及您所取得的发现。
Thank you ever so much.
非常感谢你。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
It was great fun.
非常有趣。
Thank you for having me.
谢谢你有我。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We'll do it again.
我们会再做一次。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
I like.
我喜欢。
We shall.
我们会的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thank you for joining me today for my discussion about perception, and in particular, the perception of taste with Dr. Charles Zuker.
感谢您今天加入我与 Charles Zuker 博士讨论感知，特别是味觉感知。
If you're learning from and/or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel.
如果您正在学习和/或喜欢此播客，请订阅我们的 YouTube 频道。
That's a terrific zero-cost way to support us.
这是支持我们的绝佳零成本方式。
In addition, please subscribe to the podcast on Spotify and Apple.
此外，请订阅 Spotify 和 Apple 上的播客。
And on Spotify and Apple, you can leave us up to a five-star review.
在 Spotify 和 Apple 上，您可以给我们留下五星级的评价。
If you have feedback for us in terms of comments related to topics we've covered or questions or topics or guests that you'd like us to cover on future episodes of the Huberman Lab Podcast, please put those in the comments section on YouTube.
如果您对我们已报道的主题有任何意见，或者您希望我们在 Huberman 实验室播客的未来剧集中报道的问题、主题或嘉宾，请将这些反馈放入 YouTube 的评论部分。
We do read all the comments.
我们确实阅读了所有评论。
On today's episode of the Huberman Lab Podcast, we didn't talk about supplements, but on many previous episodes of the Huberman Lab Podcast, we talk about supplements that are useful for sleep, for focus, for hormone support, and other aspects of mental health, physical health, and performance.
在今天的休伯曼实验室播客中，我们没有谈论补充剂，但在之前的许多休伯曼实验室播客中，我们谈论了对睡眠、注意力、激素支持以及心理健康、身体健康和表现的其他方面有用的补充剂。
If you're interested in some of those supplements, you can go to livemomentous.com/huberman to see the catalog of supplements that we've helped them formulate and that map directly onto specific protocols described on the Huberman Lab Podcast.
如果您对其中一些补充剂感兴趣，可以访问 livemomentous.com/huberman 查看我们帮助他们制定的补充剂目录，这些目录直接映射到 Huberman 实验室播客中描述的特定协议。
Again, that's livemomentous.com/huberman.
再说一遍，这是 livemomentous.com/huberman。
If you're not already following us on social media, we are hubermanlab on Twitter and hubermanlab on Instagram.
如果您还没有在社交媒体上关注我们，我们在 Twitter 上是 hubermanlab，在 Instagram 上是 hubermanlab。
And at both Twitter and Instagram, I cover science and science-related tools, some of which overlap with the content of the Huberman Lab Podcast, but much of which is distinct from the information contained in the Huberman Lab Podcast.
在 Twitter 和 Instagram 上，我介绍了科学和科学相关工具，其中一些与 Huberman 实验室播客的内容重叠，但其中大部分与 Huberman 实验室播客中包含的信息不同。
We also have a newsletter in which we spell out protocols and some summaries from previous podcast episodes.
我们还有一份时事通讯，其中详细说明了之前播客节目的协议和一些摘要。
If you'd like to check those out, you can go to hubermanlab.com, go to the menu, and you'll find the Neural Network Newsletter.
如果您想查看这些内容，可以访问 hubermanlab.com，进入菜单，然后您会找到神经网络新闻通讯。
You can sign up for that newsletter simply by providing an email.
您只需提供电子邮件即可注册该新闻通讯。
It's completely zero cost.
完全是零成本。
We have a very strict privacy policy.
我们有非常严格的隐私政策。
We do not share your email with anybody.
我们不会与任何人分享您的电子邮件。
Again, that's hubermanlab.com.
再说一遍，那就是 hubermanlab.com。
Go to the menu and look for the Neural Network Newsletter.
转到菜单并查找神经网络通讯。
And if you'd like examples of previous newsletters, you'll also find those at hubermanlab.com.
如果您想要以前的时事通讯示例，您还可以在 hubermanlab.com 上找到这些内容。
Once again, thank you for joining me today in my discussion with Dr. Charles Zuker about the biology of perception and the biology of the perception of taste in particular.
再次感谢您今天加入我与 Charles Zuker 博士讨论感知生物学，特别是味觉感知生物学。
I hope you found that discussion to be as enriching as I did.
我希望您能像我一样发现这次讨论内容丰富。
And last but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.
最后但并非最不重要的一点是，感谢您对科学的兴趣。