Dr. Charan Ranganath: How to Improve Memory & Focus Using Science Protocols
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.
欢迎来到休伯曼实验室播客，我们在这里讨论科学和基于科学的日常生活工具。
I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.
我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。
My guest today is Dr. Charan Ranganath.
今天我的客人是 Charan Ranganath 博士。
Dr. Charan Ranganath is a professor of psychology and neuroscience at the University of California, Davis.
Charan Ranganath 博士是加州大学戴维斯分校的心理学和神经科学教授。
He is one of the world's leading researchers in the topic of human memory, and memory, of course, is an essential component to our entire lives.
他是人类记忆领域世界领先的研究人员之一，而记忆当然是我们整个生活的重要组成部分。
Memory isn't just important for remembering things that we learn, it's also vitally important for setting the context of our entire life.
记忆不仅对于记住我们学到的东西很重要，对于设定我们整个生活的背景也至关重要。
Meaning, only by understanding where we come from, who we were, and who we are currently, can we frame what we want to do in the next moments, the next day, the next years, and indeed, for the rest of our life.
这意味着，只有了解我们来自哪里、我们曾经是谁、我们现在是谁，我们才能制定下一刻、第二天、未来几年、乃至余生想要做什么。
This is why, for instance, that people who have deficits in memory, either due to brain damage or due to age-related cognitive decline, or diseases like Alzheimer's dementia, suffer so much, not just in terms of not being able to remember things for sake of daily tasks, but also for sake of placing themselves in the larger context of their life.
例如，这就是为什么那些因脑损伤或与年龄相关的认知能力下降或阿尔茨海默氏痴呆等疾病而导致记忆缺陷的人会遭受如此多的痛苦，不仅因为无法记住日常任务的事情，而且还因为无法将自己置于生活的更大背景中。
Recognizing family members isn't just about being able to relate to those family members on a day-to-day basis, it's also about understanding the full context of all one's memories with those people, and what meaning a given interaction brings to any of life's experiences.
认识家庭成员不仅仅是能够在日常生活中与这些家庭成员建立联系，还包括了解一个人与这些人的所有记忆的完整背景，以及特定的互动给任何生活经历带来的意义。
So today, you're going to learn how memory works.
所以今天，你将学习记忆是如何运作的。
You're going to learn about things like déjà vu.
你将会了解到诸如似曾相识之类的事情。
You're going to learn ways to offset age-related cognitive decline, what the research really says about that, and ways to prevent things like Alzheimer's dementia.
您将了解抵消与年龄相关的认知能力下降的方法、研究的真实内容以及预防阿尔茨海默氏痴呆症等疾病的方法。
We also talk about ADHD, or attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, and Dr. Ranganath shares his own experience with ADHD, how it relates to memory, and the tools that he has used in order to combat his own ADHD.
我们还谈论注意力缺陷多动症（ADHD），即注意力缺陷多动症，Ranganath 博士分享了他自己的注意力缺陷多动症经历、它与记忆的关系，以及他用来对抗自己的注意力缺陷多动症的工具。
Dr. Ranganath has an exquisite ability to describe research studies in clear terms, and to combine that with his own narrative and life experience in a way that really frames for you practical tools that you can apply in your daily life.
Ranganath 博士具有精湛的能力，能够以清晰的语言描述研究，并将其与他自己的叙述和生活经验相结合，真正为您构建可以在日常生活中应用的实用工具。
Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.
在开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。
It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public.
然而，我的愿望和努力的一部分是向公众提供有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本消费者信息。
In keeping with that theme, I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast.
为了与这个主题保持一致，我要感谢今天播客的赞助商。
Our first sponsor is David.
我们的第一位赞助商是大卫。
David makes a protein bar unlike any other.
大卫制作的蛋白质棒与众不同。
It has 28 grams of protein, only 150 calories, and zero grams of sugar.
它含有 28 克蛋白质，仅 150 卡路里，零克糖。
That's right, 28 grams of protein and 75% of its calories come from protein.
没错，28克蛋白质，其75%的热量都来自于蛋白质。
This is 50% higher than the next closest protein bar.
这比第二接近的蛋白质棒高出 50%。
These bars from David also taste incredible.
大卫的这些巧克力棒味道也令人难以置信。
My favorite bar is the cake-flavored one, but then again, I also like the chocolate-flavored one, and I like the berry-flavored one.
我最喜欢的巧克力棒是蛋糕味的，但话又说回来，我也喜欢巧克力味的，而且我喜欢浆果味的。
Basically, I like all the flavors.
基本上所有的口味我都喜欢。
They're all incredibly delicious.
它们都非常美味。
Now, for me personally, I try to get most of my calories from whole foods.
现在，就我个人而言，我尝试从天然食品中获取大部分卡路里。
However, when I'm in a rush or I'm away from home, or I'm just looking for a quick afternoon snack, I often find that I'm looking for a high-quality protein source.
然而，当我很赶时间或者我不在家，或者我只是想吃点下午茶时，我经常发现我正在寻找高质量的蛋白质来源。
And with David, I'm able to get 28 grams of high-quality protein with the calories of a snack, which makes it very easy to hit my protein goals of one gram of protein per pound of body weight, and it allows me to do so without taking on an excess of calories.
有了 David，我就能用一份零食的热量获得 28 克优质蛋白质，这使得我很容易达到每磅体重 1 克蛋白质的蛋白质目标，而且我可以在不摄入过多热量的情况下实现这一目标。
Again, I focus on getting most of my food from whole food sources throughout the day, but I typically eat a David bar in the late afternoon when I get hungry between lunch and dinner, sometimes also mid-morning if I get hungry then, and sometimes I'll use it as a meal replacement, although not a complete meal replacement, it can get me to the next meal.
再说一次，我全天都专注于从天然食物来源获取大部分食物，但我通常在下午晚些时候吃大卫棒，当我在午餐和晚餐之间感到饥饿时，有时也会在上午中间如果我饿了，有时我会用它作为代餐，虽然不是完全的代餐，但它可以让我到下一顿饭。
So if I need to eat in a couple of hours but I'm really hungry, I'll eat a David bar.
因此，如果我需要在几个小时内吃东西，但我真的很饿，我会吃大卫棒。
As I mentioned before, they are incredibly delicious.
正如我之前提到的，它们非常美味。
In fact, they're surprisingly delicious.
事实上，它们出奇的美味。
Even the consistency is great.
即使一致性也很棒。
It's more like a cookie consistency, kind of a chewy cookie consistency, which is unlike other bars, which I tend to kind of saturate on.
它更像是饼干的稠度，有点耐嚼的饼干稠度，这与我倾向于饱和的其他巧克力棒不同。
I was never a big fan of bars until I discovered David bars.
在我发现大卫酒吧之前，我从来都不是酒吧的忠实粉丝。
If you give them a try, you'll know what I mean.
如果你尝试一下，你就会明白我的意思。
So if you'd like to try David, you can go to davidprotein.com/huberman.
因此，如果您想尝试 David，可以访问 david Protein.com/huberman。
Again, the link is davidprotein.com/huberman.
同样，链接是 david Protein.com/huberman。
Today's episode is also brought to us by Levels.
今天的节目也是Levels给我们带来的。
Levels is a program that lets you see how different foods affect your health by giving you real-time feedback on your diet using a continuous glucose monitor.
Levels 是一个程序，通过使用连续血糖监测仪为您的饮食提供实时反馈，让您了解不同的食物如何影响您的健康。
Now, one of the most important factors in both your short and long-term health and your energy levels each day is your body's ability to manage blood glucose.
现在，影响您的短期和长期健康以及每天能量水平的最重要因素之一是您的身体管理血糖的能力。
To maintain energy and focus throughout the day, you want to keep your blood glucose levels steady without big spikes or crashes.
为了全天保持精力充沛和注意力集中，您希望血糖水平保持稳定，不要出现大幅峰值或崩溃。
Now, I first started using Levels about three years ago as a way to understand how different foods impacted my blood glucose levels, and it's proven incredibly informative for determining what food choices I make, when best to time my food intake around things like workouts, both cardiovascular training versus resistance training, and when and what to eat close to sleep or not so close to sleep, when I wake up in the morning, if I'm fasting or breaking a fast, et cetera.
现在，大约三年前，我第一次开始使用“水平”作为了解不同食物如何影响我的血糖水平的一种方式，事实证明，它对于确定我做出的食物选择、何时最好围绕锻炼等食物摄入时间、心血管训练与阻力训练、何时何地在接近睡眠或不那么接近睡眠时吃什么、吃什么、早上何时醒来、是否禁食或打破禁食等提供了令人难以置信的信息。
Indeed, using Levels has helped me shape my entire schedule so I have more energy, more cognitive focus, my workouts are better, my sleep is better.
事实上，使用 Levels 帮助我制定了整个日程安排，让我有更多的精力、更多的认知注意力、我的锻炼更好、我的睡眠更好。
Everything got better when I understood how different things, especially food, were impacting my blood glucose levels.
当我了解不同的事物（尤其是食物）如何影响我的血糖水平时，一切都变得更好。
So if you're interested in learning more about Levels and trying a CGM yourself, you can go to levels.link/huberman.
因此，如果您有兴趣了解有关 Levels 的更多信息并亲自尝试 CGM，可以访问levels.link/huberman。
Right now, Levels is also offering an additional two free months of membership.
目前，Levels 还提供额外两个月的免费会员资格。
Again, that's levels.link, L-I-N-K, /huberman to try their new sensor and two free months of membership.
同样，levels.link、L-I-N-K、/huberman 也来尝试他们的新传感器和两个月的免费会员资格。
Today's episode is also brought to us by Waking Up.
今天的节目也是由Wakeing Up为我们带来的。
Waking Up is a meditation app that offers hundreds of guided meditation programs, mindfulness trainings, yoga nidra sessions, and more.
Waking Up 是一款冥想应用程序，提供数百个引导冥想计划、正念训练、瑜伽休息课程等。
I started practicing meditation when I was about 15 years old, and it made a profound impact on my life.
我大约15岁的时候开始练习冥想，它对我的生活产生了深远的影响。
And by now, there are thousands of quality peer-reviewed studies that emphasize how useful mindfulness meditation can be for improving our focus, managing stress and anxiety, improving our mood, and much more.
到目前为止，已有数以千计的高质量同行评审研究强调正念冥想对于提高我们的注意力、管理压力和焦虑、改善我们的情绪等等有多么有用。
In recent years, I started using the Waking Up app for my meditations because I find it to be a terrific resource for allowing me to really be consistent with my meditation practice Many people start a meditation practice and experience some benefits, but many people also have challenges keeping up with that practice.
近年来，我开始使用唤醒应用程序进行冥想，因为我发现它是一个很棒的资源，可以让我真正坚持我的冥想练习。许多人开始冥想练习并体验到一些好处，但许多人在跟上这种练习方面也面临着挑战。
What I and so many other people love about the Waking Up app is that it has a lot of different meditations to choose from, and those meditations are of different durations.
我和许多其他人喜欢“醒来”应用程序的原因是它有很多不同的冥想可供选择，而且这些冥想的持续时间也不同。
So it makes it very easy to keep up with your meditation practice, both from the perspective of novelty, you never get tired of those meditations, there's always something new to explore and to learn about yourself and about the effectiveness of meditation, and you can always fit meditation into your schedule, even if you only have two or three minutes per day in which to meditate.
所以它让你很容易跟上你的冥想练习，无论是从新奇的角度来看，你永远不会厌倦这些冥想，总有一些新的东西可以探索和了解你自己以及冥想的有效性，而且你总是可以将冥想纳入你的日程安排，即使你每天只有两到三分钟的冥想时间。
If you'd like to try the Waking Up app, please go to wakingup.com/huberman where you can access a free 30-day trial.
如果您想尝试 Waking Up 应用程序，请访问 wakingup.com/huberman，在那里您可以免费试用 30 天。
Again, that's wakingup.com/huberman to access a free 30-day trial.
同样，访问 wakingup.com/huberman 即可获得 30 天免费试用。
And now for my discussion with Dr. Charan Ranganath.
现在我与 Charan Ranganath 博士进行讨论。
Dr. Charan Ranganath, welcome.
查兰·兰加纳特博士，欢迎光临。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Thank you.
谢谢你。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Speaking of memory, we go way back.
说到记忆，我们可以追溯到很久以前。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
We do.
我们做到了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I was a graduate student when you were first hired as an assistant professor, which for those that aren't familiar with the academic nomenclature and trajectories, assistant professors are professors that have not yet received tenure, but now of course, you're a full professor, and you are a world expert in memory.
当你第一次被聘为助理教授时，我还是一名研究生，对于那些不熟悉学术术语和发展轨迹的人来说，助理教授是尚未获得终身教职的教授，但现在，当然，你是一名正式教授，你是记忆领域的世界专家。
Something that I think occupies the minds of all of us, even if we're not trying.
我认为有些事情占据了我们所有人的心，即使我们没有尝试。
So that's actually the segue to my first question, which is, as we move through our day, how much of our cognition, our perception, is focused on things that are happening in the present as opposed to being driven by prior memories?
这实际上是我的第一个问题的延续，即，当我们度过一天时，我们的认知、感知有多少是集中在当前正在发生的事情上，而不是受先前的记忆驱动？
Have studies ever been done that evaluate how often our brain switches to thoughts about the past?
是否曾经进行过研究来评估我们的大脑切换到对过去的想法的频率？
Of course, we learn about things that are in our present.
当然，我们了解现在的事情。
I know this is a cup because I was taught that-
我知道这是一个杯子，因为我被告知——
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
at some point.
在某个时刻。
But what I'm referring to is, how much of our thinking on a day-to-day basis is literally in the past?
但我指的是，我们日常的思考有多少实际上是过去的？
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Well, it's interesting.
嗯，这很有趣。
First of all, it's a great question to start off with, and it's interesting because I actually don't think memory is about the past.
首先，这是一个很好的问题，而且很有趣，因为我实际上不认为记忆是关于过去的。
I think memory is about the present and the future.
我认为记忆是关于现在和未来的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
It's about taking selectively what you need from the past to make sense of the present and to project to the future.
它是有选择地从过去获取你需要的东西，以理解现在并预测未来。
I know you're a vision guy, right?
我知道你是个有远见的人，对吧？
And so if you look at people's just eye movements, right?
所以如果你只观察人们的眼球运动，对吗？
The first time I came into this room, I'm sure I wasn't aware of it, but I'm sure my eyes were going all over the place.
当我第一次走进这个房间时，我确信我并没有意识到这一点，但我确信我的目光四处扫视。
Now, if I came back to visit you, say if you're like, "Oh, that was an awesome interview," or whatever, right?
现在，如果我回来拜访你，你会说，“哦，那是一次很棒的采访”，或者其他什么，对吧？
Hopefully, but maybe not.
希望如此，但也许不会。
But let's say I do, right?
但假设我愿意，对吧？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Chances are.
有机会。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So I go and my eyes will probably go right to the Rick Rubin photo.
所以我去的时候，我的眼睛可能会直接看到里克·鲁宾的照片。
Then I'll go right to something else, to the espresso machine.
然后我就去干别的事，去浓缩咖啡机。
And so my memory allows me to make predictions about where things are, and it's almost pre-conscious, so that it's happening without our awareness, and it's confirmatory.
所以我的记忆让我能够预测事物在哪里，这几乎是前意识的，所以它在我们意识不到的情况下发生，并且是证实性的。
We're grabbing the important stuff and making sure everything's where it's supposed to be.
我们正在抓住重要的东西并确保一切都在它应该在的地方。
And you can see this play out in phenomena also, like change blindness, and it's a little bit of a different phenomena.
你也可以在现象中看到这种情况，比如改变盲目性，这是一种有点不同的现象。
But basically, in change blindness, there's a famous example where they show a video of people playing basketball, and they're passing the ball back and forth, and then this guy in a gorilla costume just walks behind them.
但基本上，在变化盲目性中，有一个著名的例子，他们播放了人们打篮球的视频，他们来回传球，然后这个穿着大猩猩服装的家伙就走在他们身后。
And about, I think it's 40% of the people who watch this video don't see the gorilla.
我认为观看该视频的人中有 40% 没有看到大猩猩。
And the reason is that you're generating these serious expectations about what's in front of you.
原因是你对眼前的事情产生了认真的期望。
And so you're not literally seeing what's in front of you.
所以你并没有真正看到你面前的东西。
You are creating an internal model, a simulation really, of what the outside world is.
你正在创建一个内部模型，实际上是对外部世界的模拟。
And memory, whether it's semantic memory, which we'll talk about, I'm sure, your knowledge about the world, like the cup thing.
还有记忆，无论是语义记忆，我们将讨论，我确信，你对世界的了解，就像杯子的事情。
If it's episodic memory, which is your memory of what happened, let's say, just a minute ago, it's all coming into play in terms of your sense of where you are, right?
如果是情景记忆，也就是你对一分钟前发生的事情的记忆，那么这一切都会根据你对自己所处位置的感觉而发挥作用，对吧？
If I just ask you, what day is it?
如果我问你，今天是星期几？
You will use episodic memory for that.
为此，您将使用情景记忆。
Tomorrow morning, I'm going to wake up in a hotel room.
明天早上，我会在酒店房间里醒来。
If I don't have episodic memory, I will freak out because I'll be like, "Where am I?
如果我没有情景记忆，我会惊慌失措，因为我会想：“我在哪里？
Did I get kidnapped?
我被绑架了吗？
Why am I here?" And that's really the experience of people with memory disorders.
我为什么在这里？”这确实是记忆障碍患者的经历。
They have to be in really familiar environments because it's frightening otherwise, right?
他们必须处于非常熟悉的环境中，否则会很可怕，对吗？
So even, I wouldn't necessarily say that we are never seeing the present.
即使如此，我也不一定会说我们永远看不到现在。
Of course we are, right?
我们当然是，对吧？
But our understanding of the present is so informed by the past that it allows us both to focus on what's important, what's non-redundant with what we already know, and it also allows us to detect surprises and find out the things that are unexpected and grab the most informative stuff as well.
但我们对现在的理解受到过去的影响，它让我们能够专注于重要的事情，那些与我们已知的不多余的事情，它也让我们能够发现惊喜，找出意想不到的事情，并抓住最有信息性的东西。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yesterday, I took a brief nap in the afternoon.
昨天下午，我小睡了一会儿。
I do this practice of non-sleep deep rest-
我做这个非睡眠深度休息的练习-
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Oh, yeah
哦，是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in the afternoon.
下午。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
I got to have you teach this to me sometime.
我得找个时间请你教我这个。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
It's very restorative-
真是太治愈了～
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
for mental and physical energy, I find.
我发现，对于精神和身体能量。
But I fell asleep toward the end of it, and when I woke up, I was in a dark room, but I didn't know where I was for about, felt like 10, 15 seconds.
但我在快结束时睡着了，当我醒来时，我在一个黑暗的房间里，但我不知道我在哪里，感觉大约有10、15秒。
Somewhat scary.
有点可怕。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But I'd forgotten that I was in my solo studio.
但我忘记了我是在我的个人工作室里。
I had turned the room lights down.
我把房间的灯调暗了。
What is it when we have these lapses in memory as we emerge from sleep?
当我们从睡眠中醒来时出现这些记忆缺失时，这是怎么回事？
Or sometimes, if one has been severely jet lagged, you can experience this disorientation of place.
或者有时，如果一个人严重倒时差，你可能会经历这种地方迷失。
Do we know what that is?
我们知道那是什么吗？
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Well, a lot of your sense of where you are comes from episodic memory.
嗯，你对自己所处位置的感觉很大程度上来自情景记忆。
Now, there's a school of thought that says that episodic memory, which is your ability to remember past events, comes from your ability to understand where you are.
现在，有一个学派认为情景记忆，即你记住过去事件的能力，来自你了解自己所在位置的能力。
And we have some interesting data from sea lions, actually, that speaks to this issue.
实际上，我们从海狮那里得到了一些有趣的数据，这些数据说明了这个问题。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sea lions?
海狮？
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Sea lions, yeah.
海狮，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay, we'll get back to that.
好的，我们会回到这个话题。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
We'll get back to the sea lions.
我们将回到海狮。
But I would argue that to remember where you are when you first get up, you have to engage in an active episodic memory retrieval.
但我认为，为了记住你第一次起床时在哪里，你必须进行积极的情景记忆检索。
That is, you have to figure out, well, how did I get here?
也就是说，你必须弄清楚，我是怎么到这里的？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
And orienting yourself takes a moment, because it's a little bit of a controlled memory search, right?
调整自己的方向需要一些时间，因为这有点受控的记忆搜索，对吧？
It's not something that's in front of you that reminds you of where you are initially, and you're also in this little bit of a fog when you wake up.
并不是眼前的东西让你想起自己最初在哪里，而当你醒来时，你也处于这一点迷雾之中。
I don't know enough about sleep to say, but I would suspect that people probably are in some kind of a stage one-ish or just high alpha-
我对睡眠了解不多，但我怀疑人们可能处于某种第一阶段或只是高阿尔法-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
...
...
these brain waves that are very much associated with grogginess as you're getting up.
这些脑电波与起床时的昏昏沉沉密切相关。
Neuromodulators are probably super low, so you're--
神经调节剂可能非常低，所以你——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Not much epinephrine, not much adrenaline.
肾上腺素不多，肾上腺素不多。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yeah, exactly.
是的，完全正确。
And so that's going to lead you to really be slow in doing that memory retrieval that you need to orient yourself.
因此，这将导致你在记忆检索方面变得非常缓慢，而你需要调整自己的方向。
So, in the clinic, if you want to understand whether someone has a memory disorder, one of the simplest things is to ask them what day of the week is it, what month is it?
所以，在诊所里，如果想了解某人是否有记忆障碍，最简单的一件事就是问他们今天是星期几，是几月？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Who's the president?
总统是谁？
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Who's the president, yeah.
谁是总统，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right now that's a com-
现在这是一个com-
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
That's a loaded question, but
这是一个有内涵的问题，但是
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, it depends on what time of year relative to the election you ask, right?
嗯，这取决于你问的选举相对于一年中的什么时间，对吧？
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Exactly, yeah.
没错，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Very interesting.
非常有趣。
I'm curious also why it is that most all of us have a stable representation of who we are.
我也很好奇为什么我们大多数人都有一个稳定的自我表征。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So my understanding is that even people with very severe memory deficits don't wake up in the morning and wonder, who am I, or who is this person in this body?
所以我的理解是，即使是记忆力非常严重的人，也不会在早上醒来时想知道，我是谁，或者这个身体里的这个人是谁？
That somehow we remember that we have a self, that we are separate from other selves, that that kind of knowledge might be innate, we might be-
不知何故，我们记得我们有一个自我，我们与其他自我分离，这种知识可能是与生俱来的，我们可能是——
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
born with it, and that the representation of self in memory is very stable.
与生俱来，并且记忆中的自我表征非常稳定。
Is that true?
这是真的吗？
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Well, here's what I'll say.
好吧，这就是我要说的。
It's a really interesting and complex question.
这是一个非常有趣且复杂的问题。
You always talk to a scientist, you get the, "It's complicated." But I'll give you as simple of a thing as I can, which is, so if you look at patients with amnesia, so they have a memory disorder where they can't form new memories.
你总是和科学家交谈，你会得到“这很复杂”。但我会尽可能简单地告诉你一件事，那就是，如果你观察失忆症患者，他们患有记忆障碍，无法形成新的记忆。
They have a sense of who they are, as you mentioned.
正如你提到的，他们知道自己是谁。
It's not like they don't know who they are.
他们又不是不知道自己是谁。
And I mean, they know their names, they know their biographies, and so forth.
我的意思是，他们知道自己的名字，知道自己的传记，等等。
But what happens is, at the time, let's say if you had gone swimming and you nearly drown, you had a hypoxia incident, or a cardiac arrest, or you had a traumatic brain injury, severe memory deficit, right?
但当时发生的情况是，假设你去游泳，差点被淹死，你发生了缺氧事件，或者心脏骤停，或者你患有脑外伤，严重的记忆缺陷，对吗？
Your sense of self doesn't update.
你的自我意识不会更新。
It gets kind of stuck.
它有点卡住了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
And so there is kind of a sense of looking and not expecting yourself to be as old as you used to be.
所以有一种看起来并不期望自己像以前那么老的感觉。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
As you are.
就像你一样。
Because you're stuck in your sense of who you were.
因为你被困在你自己的感觉中。
And I do think, I talked, my good friend Rick Robbins at Davis is a personality psychologist, and he studies the development of personality.
我确实认为，我说过，我在戴维斯的好朋友里克·罗宾斯是一位人格心理学家，他研究人格的发展。
And it does develop.
它确实在发展。
It kind of stabilizes in these adolescent years, and that's actually also interestingly related to memory.
它在青少年时期趋于稳定，这实际上也与记忆有关。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
But it does change.
但它确实改变了。
People do change in really interesting ways.
人们确实会以非常有趣的方式发生变化。
So one thing is that people grow more optimistic on average as they get older.
所以有一件事是，随着年龄的增长，人们平均会变得更加乐观。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is that right?
是这样吗？
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
That's true.
这是真的。
So Laura Carstensen, your colleague at Stanford, actually, has done some really cool work on that topic.
实际上，你在斯坦福大学的同事劳拉·卡斯滕森（Laura Carstensen）在这个主题上做了一些非常酷的工作。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They become more optimistic, and yet I would argue that we become more, quote-unquote, set in our ways because neuroplasticity, the ability to reshape our neural circuits, diminishes with age.
他们变得更加乐观，但我认为我们变得更加固步自封，因为神经可塑性，即重塑我们神经回路的能力，随着年龄的增长而减弱。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Well, so I think that's overdone a little bit.
嗯，所以我认为这有点过头了。
I think you're right.
我认为你是对的。
You definitely see less dopamine activity, for instance, as people get older.
例如，随着人们年龄的增长，你肯定会看到多巴胺活动减少。
But what I'll say is that if you have a healthy aging person, they have gobs of neural plasticity.
但我要说的是，如果你有一个健康的老年人，他们就有大量的神经可塑性。
But often what happens is, yeah, you get stuck in your ways, and that could be related to a few things.
但经常发生的情况是，是的，你被困在自己的方式中，这可能与一些事情有关。
One is that you get changes in the prefrontal cortex, and that leads you to be less cognitively flexible.
一是你的前额皮质发生变化，这会导致你的认知灵活性降低。
It can be also because people just build up so much prior knowledge about the world that it just becomes kind of ingrained that this is the way it is, and it's harder to be surprised.
也可能是因为人们对世界积累了太多先验知识，以至于根深蒂固地认为事情就是这样，很难感到惊讶。
I mean, you kind of see this with old scientists, right?
我的意思是，你在老科学家身上看到了这一点，对吗？
They go like, "Nothing's new.
他们会说：“没什么新鲜事。
Everything's been discovered in 1960 and nothing new has happened since then." And-
一切都在 1960 年被发现，从那以后就没有发生过任何新的事情。”还有——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And by the way, for folks listening who are considering a career in science, nothing could be further-
顺便说一句，对于正在考虑从事科学事业的听众来说，没有什么比这更进一步了——
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
From the truth
从真相来看
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
from the truth.
来自真相。
In fact, prior to recording, you told me a saying that I've never heard before.
事实上，在录音之前，你给我说了一句我以前从未听过的话。
I don't know if it's cynical or optimistic, but if I recall the quote that Dr. Ranganath passed along, which does not come from him, it descends from somebody else, not to be named- ...
我不知道这是愤世嫉俗还是乐观，但如果我记得兰加纳特博士传递的那句话，这句话不是来自他，而是来自其他人，不愿透露姓名——......
is that, quote, "Science progresses one funeral at a time." Actually, a very interesting statement.
引用的话就是，“科学一次只推进一场葬礼”。事实上，这是一个非常有趣的说法。
It could be examined from a number of directions.
可以从多个方向来考察。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
It's dark.
天黑了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But I agree.
但我同意。
I mean, there's some wonderful, let's call them aged scientists-
我的意思是，有一些很棒的，我们称他们为老年科学家吧——
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
with tremendous knowledge and excitement.
带着巨大的知识和兴奋。
One only has to listen to the Nobel Prize winner, Richard Axel, talk about his love of olfaction and perception, and you can sense his delight.
只要听诺贝尔奖获得者理查德·阿克塞尔讲述他对嗅觉和知觉的热爱，你就能感受到他的喜悦。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And he's getting up there.
他正站起来。
Sorry, Richard, but it's true.
对不起，理查德，但这是真的。
He's in his 70s, right?
他已经70多岁了，对吧？
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hopefully, he'll live a very long time.
希望他能活很长一段时间。
And certainly, science progressed as a consequence of him being alive and-
当然，科学的进步是他活着的结果——
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
working on the olfactory system.
研究嗅觉系统。
But I think what you're referring to is really important.
但我认为你所指的内容非常重要。
Neuroplasticity doesn't necessarily shut down as we age.
神经可塑性并不一定会随着年龄的增长而消失。
It might even stay open to the same degree as early adulthood.
它甚至可能保持与成年早期相同的程度。
But if I understand what you're saying correctly, you believe that it's because People tend to seek out less new knowledge as opposed to lacking the ability to create new knowledge.
但如果我理解你的意思是正确的，你认为这是因为人们倾向于寻求较少的新知识，而不是缺乏创造新知识的能力。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
I believe that's true, but that's an opinion.
我相信这是真的，但这只是一个观点。
I don't have data on that per se, but someone's probably looked at this.
我本身没有这方面的数据，但可能有人看过这个。
But that would be my sense is that a lot of what happens with the way people's lives play out as they get older have to do with their environment and their experience.
但我的感觉是，随着年龄的增长，人们的生活发生的很多事情都与他们的环境和经历有关。
And that's not to say that, yes, neuroplasticity does change as you get older, but it doesn't account for the degree to which sometimes people can get stuck and set in their ways.
这并不是说，是的，神经可塑性确实会随着年龄的增长而改变，但这并不能解释人们有时会陷入困境并固守自己的方式的程度。
And your example of the scientist is such a beautiful example because I look at the scientists who don't get stuck in their ways, right?
你举的科学家的例子是一个非常美丽的例子，因为我看到那些不拘泥于自己方式的科学家，对吧？
And they constantly challenge their beliefs.
他们不断挑战自己的信念。
They surround themselves with a diverse group of people who stimulate them, and they're also open to prediction error.
他们周围都是各种各样的人，这些人会刺激他们，而且他们也容易出现预测错误。
That is, they're open to saying something could be violating my knowledge of the world or my understanding of the way world works.
也就是说，他们愿意说某些事情可能违反我对世界的了解或我对世界运作方式的理解。
So here's just an example, and I know I'm going to be free associating all over the place.
所以这只是一个例子，我知道我将在任何地方自由交往。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Please.
请。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
We can get into that.
我们可以深入探讨这一点。
But it's like one of the coolest studies that we ever did, and I totally credit my postdoc, Matthias Gruber, for this.
但这就像我们做过的最酷的研究之一，我完全归功于我的博士后马蒂亚斯格鲁伯。
He came into my lab, he's originally German, came in from University College London, and he told me he wanted to study curiosity and its effect on memory.
他来到我的实验室，他是德国人，来自伦敦大学学院，他告诉我他想研究好奇心及其对记忆的影响。
I'm like, "This is just..." I am being totally closed-minded, and I said, "This is just a dumb topic." Everybody knows if you're curious about something, you'll remember it better just because you're interested, right?
我想，“这只是......”我的思想完全封闭，我说，“这只是一个愚蠢的话题。”每个人都知道，如果你对某件事感到好奇，你会因为感兴趣而更好地记住它，对吗？
So he said, "No, this is really interesting." And so we did this experiment, and I got on board with it.
所以他说：“不，这真的很有趣。”所以我们做了这个实验，我也同意了。
We really kind of collectively, it was just this beautiful thing where I was exposed to something new, and I got excited about it.
我们真的是一个集体，这就是一件美丽的事情，我接触到了新的东西，我对此感到兴奋。
And so the idea was we would give people these trivia questions, and so it's kind of like a pub quiz.
所以我们的想法是我们会给人们这些琐事问题，所以这有点像酒吧测验。
You sit in a pub quiz.
你坐在酒吧测验中。
Sometimes you get a question, and it's like, "I don't know the answer." Sometimes you get it, and you go, "I know it." Sometimes you go, "I don't know, but God, I really need to know the answer to this," and you get this itch, right?
有时你会遇到一个问题，就像“我不知道答案”。有时你明白了，然后你就会说：“我知道。”有时你会说，“我不知道，但是上帝，我真的需要知道这个问题的答案，”你会感到很痒，对吧？
Or sometimes your listeners, they're probably very curious people, and that's why they listen to this.
或者有时你的听众，他们可能是非常好奇的人，这就是他们听这个的原因。
And maybe some of them go to your show notes afterwards because they want to learn more, right?
也许他们中的一些人事后会去看你的演出笔记，因为他们想了解更多，对吧？
So we actually scan people's brains using functional MRI.
所以我们实际上使用功能性核磁共振扫描人们的大脑。
And so we scan them when they get questions, and sometimes they had said, "I'm really curious to find out the answer to these questions." Sometimes they weren't curious.
因此，当他们提出问题时，我们会扫描他们，有时他们会说：“我真的很想找到这些问题的答案。”有时他们并不好奇。
And then we make them wait about eight seconds and then, or 10 seconds, I think it was, something like that, and then we show them the answer.
然后我们让他们等待大约八秒，然后，或者十秒，我想是这样的，然后我们向他们展示答案。
So they're kind of in suspense.
所以他们有点悬念。
It's kind of like you're watching Breaking Bad or something back in the day.
这有点像你在看《绝命毒师》或以前的其他节目。
People had commercials, and so you're like, "Oh, no, I got to find out what's going to happen to Walt," right?
人们有广告，所以你会想，“哦，不，我必须弄清楚沃尔特会发生什么，”对吗？
So you're in suspense.
所以你还处于悬念之中。
You need to know the answer to this, or you don't care.
你需要知道这个问题的答案，否则你不在乎。
Sometimes you just don't care.
有时你只是不在乎。
You're just sitting around.
你只是坐在那里。
So we show a little face, and we say, "Hey, how likely is it you think this person knows the answer to the question?" Now, this is a totally dumb thing to do because they don't know this person.
所以我们露出一张小脸，然后说：“嘿，你认为这个人知道问题答案的可能性有多大？”现在，这是一件完全愚蠢的事情，因为他们不认识这个人。
They're just looking at a face.
他们只是看一张脸。
They're just making some arbitrary decision.
他们只是做出一些武断的决定。
But I'll get to why we did that because that was, I think, the coolest part of the experiment.
但我会解释为什么我们这样做，因为我认为这是实验中最酷的部分。
But let's first get back to the trivia question.
但让我们首先回到琐事问题。
So we found that when we looked at brain activity, when we give people the question, right afterwards, there is a burst of activity throughout the so-called reward circuit of the brain.
所以我们发现，当我们观察大脑活动时，当我们向人们提出问题时，紧接着，整个大脑的所谓奖励回路就会爆发出一阵活动。
It's not really a reward circuit, as we've discussed offline.
正如我们在线下讨论的那样，这并不是真正的奖励循环。
It's really these areas of the brain that process the neurotransmitter dopamine.
实际上，大脑的这些区域负责处理神经递质多巴胺。
And unlike many other neuromodulators that go all over the place, dopamine is much more restricted in its effect.
与许多其他无处不在的神经调节剂不同，多巴胺的作用受到更多限制。
And so in the midbrain, near the ventral tegmental area, sorry, I'm geeking out on this.
所以在中脑，靠近腹侧被盖区，抱歉，我正在研究这个。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, we've talked about that on this podcast.
不，我们已经在这个播客上讨论过这个问题了。
I think the key statement that you made that people should hold onto as we progress through this is that dopamine is not dumped everywhere.
我认为您提出的关键观点是，随着我们在这一问题上取得进展，人们应该坚持下去，多巴胺不会随处倾倒。
It's not sprinklered all over the brain.
它并没有洒满整个大脑。
It's released in fairly restricted sites in order to drive particular processes.
它在相当有限的站点中发布，以驱动特定的进程。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
That's right.
没错。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think that's sufficient for now.
我认为现在就足够了。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
And so when we look at functional MRI, we can't measure dopamine, but what we see is activity in the dopaminergic midbrain area, meaning the area of the brain around the midbrain, and you see it in the nucleus accumbens or what's called the ventral striatum, which is another area that's super high dopamine reward processing area.
因此，当我们查看功能性 MRI 时，我们无法测量多巴胺，但我们看到的是多巴胺能中脑区域的活动，即中脑周围的大脑区域，你可以在伏核或所谓的腹侧纹状体中看到它，这是另一个超高多巴胺奖励处理区域。
The more curious people are, like on a one to six scale, the more activity you see.
人们越好奇，比如从一到六的等级，你看到的活动就越多。
It's just like this beautiful relationship, right?
就像这段美好的关系一样，对吧？
And it's not driven by the answer.
它不是由答案驱动的。
Now, there's a reason we probably didn't get it for the answer, but it's driven by the question.
现在，我们可能没有得到答案是有原因的，但它是由问题驱动的。
So it's not like they're like, "Oh, I learned something new." It's like, "I want to get this knowledge." And so that's part one of the story.
所以他们并不是说，“哦，我学到了新东西。”就像，“我想获得这些知识”。这就是故事的一部分。
Part two of the story is we show that face right after the question, and if people are curious to find the answer to the question, they get a bump in memory for the faces relative to if they're not curious.
故事的第二部分是，我们在问题之后立即展示这张脸，如果人们好奇地寻找问题的答案，相对于不好奇的情况，他们会在记忆中看到这张脸。
Now, the faces have nothing to do with the trivia question, but it's being in that curious state that drives this dopaminergic activity in the midbrain.
现在，这些面孔与琐事问题无关，但正是在这种好奇的状态下驱动了中脑的多巴胺能活动。
So there's a whole lot of other studies, findings from that study.
所以还有很多其他的研究，以及该研究的结果。
But basically, I think if, God, you know how sometimes you do a lot of studies.
但基本上，我想，上帝，你是否知道有时你会做很多研究。
I mean, I've published, like, 180 studies, so it's like I'm trying to remember the exact one.
我的意思是，我已经发表了大约 180 项研究，所以我好像在努力记住确切的一项。
I think it was functional connectivity between the hippocampus and the red brain during the face was predicting better memory for these faces in general, something like that.
我认为这是海马体和红脑之间的功能连接，在面部预测这些面部的记忆通常会更好，类似的事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We can put a link to the paper, of course, in the show note captions.
当然，我们可以在显示注释标题中放置论文的链接。
So let me make sure I understand that when people are prompted with a question-
因此，让我确保我明白，当人们被提示提出问题时——
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that drives the release of dopamine.
驱动多巴胺的释放。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The amount of dopamine is proportional to how curious they are to get the answer to that particular question.
多巴胺的含量与他们对特定问题的好奇程度成正比。
And then the dopamine itself, if elevated because they are very curious, can increase the probability that they will remember the answer.
然后，如果因为他们非常好奇而提高多巴胺本身，可以增加他们记住答案的可能性。
It creates a milieu, an environment for better memory.
它创造了一个环境，一个有利于更好记忆的环境。
But that can confuse us and make us think that dopamine improves our memory, but it's that curiosity increases dopamine, which increases the capacity to store information that comes subsequent to curiosity.
但这可能会让我们感到困惑，让我们认为多巴胺可以改善我们的记忆力，但好奇心会增加多巴胺，从而增加好奇心之后存储信息的能力。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Beautiful synopsis, but I'll do two cheerful amendments.
美丽的概要，但我会做两个愉快的修改。
So one is, technically, we're not measuring dopamine, so I have to be very clear about that.
所以，从技术上来说，我们没有测量多巴胺，所以我必须非常清楚这一点。
This is BOLD signal, meaning it's metabolic activity.
这是粗体信号，意味着它是新陈代谢活动。
But it's following all the usual suspects of where you'd expect it to be.
但它正在遵循您所期望的所有常见嫌疑点。
The second thing is, I do think that dopamine is playing a part in, it definitely facilitates plasticity.
第二件事是，我确实认为多巴胺发挥了作用，它确实促进了可塑性。
So I do think it helps in learning the answer, for sure.
所以我确实认为这肯定有助于学习答案。
And there's a whole theory called synaptic tagging, which basically says that if you just release a bunch of dopamine and then you have these potentiated synapses, that you can drive plasticity in those synapses, even if it's not happening at the same time.
有一个叫做突触标记的完整理论，它基本上说，如果你释放一堆多巴胺，然后你就有了这些增强的突触，你就可以驱动这些突触的可塑性，即使它不是同时发生的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
But what's really cool is the face has nothing to do with the trivia question.
但真正酷的是这张脸与琐事问题无关。
The theory that we have is when you get that bump in dopamine activity, you're motivated, you're energized to get the answer, and you're driven towards a state of plasticity.
我们的理论是，当你的多巴胺活动增加时，你就会受到激励，你会充满活力去获得答案，并且你会被驱使进入可塑性状态。
And now we're giving you something that has nothing to do with this question, and boom, you got it.
现在我们给你一些与这个问题无关的东西，然后，你明白了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So when people ask me, and they ask me a lot-
所以当人们问我时，他们问我很多——
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
how best to elevate their brain dopamine, one reasonable answer, based on this study, is curiosity, to engage curiosity.
根据这项研究，如何最好地提高大脑多巴胺水平，一个合理的答案是好奇心，激发好奇心。
Do you know the quote by Dorothy Parker?
你知道多萝西·帕克的名言吗？
"The cure for boredom is curiosity." "There is no cure for curiosity." I believe it was Dorothy Parker.
“消除无聊的良药是好奇心。” “好奇心是无法治愈的。”我相信那是多萝西·帕克。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
I love that.
我喜欢那个。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
If it wasn't, I'm sure we'll find out quickly in the comments on YouTube.
如果不是，我相信我们很快就会在 YouTube 的评论中找到答案。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Older people show the effect just as much as younger people do.
老年人和年轻人一样表现出这种效果。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Kids show it just as much as older people do.
孩子们和老年人一样表现出这一点。
It's just something that sticks around.
它只是一些残留的东西。
So speaking to your point, if you are surrounding yourself with things that will stimulate your curiosity, and if you're open to that curiosity, and we could talk about knowledge gaps and all these things that stimulate curiosity.
因此，就您的观点而言，如果您周围充满了会激发您好奇心的事物，并且您对这种好奇心持开放态度，那么我们可以讨论知识差距和所有这些激发好奇心的事物。
Novelty is another one.
新颖性是另一回事。
Richard Morris has some beautiful data on this with rats, but Emir Dudul and I too have some data with humans.
理查德·莫里斯（Richard Morris）有一些关于老鼠的漂亮数据，但埃米尔·杜杜尔（Emir Dudul）和我也有一些关于人类的数据。
Surprise, all of these things, I have a whole chapter in my book on this, drive that system.
令人惊讶的是，所有这些事情，我在我的书中有一整章关于这个，驱动那个系统。
So-
所以——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The dopamine system
多巴胺系统
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
...
...
the dopamine system.
多巴胺系统。
So basically, if you expose yourself to opportunities to be proven wrong, you expose yourself to new people, places, situations, and you allow yourself to be energized by these things and not be scared and anxious, not be like, "Oh, this person's saying something that I disagree with.
所以基本上，如果你让自己有机会被证明是错误的，你就让自己接触新的人、地方、情况，你让自己被这些事情激励，而不是害怕和焦虑，而不是说，“哦，这个人说了一些我不同意的话。
I can't deal with this," or, "Oh, we figured this out 30 years ago.
我无法处理这个问题，”或者，“哦，我们 30 年前就发现了这个问题。
Nothing's new here." If you can be open to that, I would argue that you're going to be engaging lots of plasticity, and that's something that's preserved in old age.
这里没有什么新鲜事。”如果你能对此持开放态度，我认为你将拥有大量的可塑性，而这是在老年时保留下来的东西。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Recently, we had one of the world's experts on romantic relationships on this podcast, Esther Perel, to be specific, and we talked about a lot of things related to romantic relationships, but she said that one of the most sustaining factors for romantic relationships over long periods of time is a sense of curiosity, both about the other person-
最近，我们在这个播客中请到了一位世界浪漫关系专家埃丝特·佩雷尔（Esther Perel），具体来说，我们讨论了很多与浪漫关系相关的事情，但她说，长期维持浪漫关系最重要的因素之一是好奇心，无论是对对方的好奇心——
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Mm
毫米
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
but also about oneself and how one changes in the context of the relationship, and also curiosity about where the relationship could eventually go-
还关于自己以及一个人在关系的背景下如何变化，以及对这段关系最终会走向何方的好奇——
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
were one to continue to invest in it.
是一个继续投资它的人。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So this word of curiosity seems to be a resounding theme.
所以好奇这个词似乎是一个响亮的主题。
I'm struck by, although it makes total sense, that curiosity would drive dopamine release in these pathways, that novelty would drive dopamine release in these pathways, and that also in the physical realm, dopamine is so important for physical movement.
尽管这完全有道理，但令我震惊的是，好奇心会推动这些途径中的多巴胺释放，新颖性会推动这些途径中的多巴胺释放，而且在物理领域，多巴胺对于身体运动非常重要。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I don't think this is a coincidence, right?
我不认为这是巧合，对吧？
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
No.
不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Somehow, evolution organized this neuromodulator, dopamine, to be involved, the way I think about it, is in both a physical movement-
不知何故，进化组织了这种神经调节剂，多巴胺，参与其中，我认为，是在身体运动中-
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
it's required for it, in fact, as well as cognitive movement.
事实上，它和认知运动都是必需的。
What we're really talking about is cognitive forward movement, if there is such a thing.
我们真正谈论的是认知向前运动（如果有这样的事情的话）。
We're both neuroscientists-
我们都是神经科学家-
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
but you're the memory researcher.
但你是记忆研究员。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is there sort of a word or a framework for thinking about cognitive movement forward, meaning, as opposed to just recycling past ideas-
有没有一个词或一个框架来思考认知运动的前进、意义，而不是仅仅重复过去的想法——
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and memories, the notion of taking memories and actually putting them, as you said earlier, into the present to anticipate the future, actually forward mental movement?
和记忆，正如您之前所说，将记忆实际放入当下以预测未来，实际上是向前的心理运动？
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Huh, that's a really interesting question.
呵呵，这真是一个有趣的问题。
Well, first of all, I want to be careful and not to say dopamine does this because it's a trap, right?
好吧，首先，我要小心，并不是说多巴胺会这样做，因为它是一个陷阱，对吗？
It's like-
这就像——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, to be clear-
好吧，要明确的是——
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
But again, yeah
但再说一遍，是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
you observed heightened activity in a-
您观察到以下活动加剧-
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
dopaminergic circuit.
多巴胺能回路。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So the idea that it would not involve dopamine is a bit of a stretch, but you didn't directly show that it was dopamine.
所以说它不涉及多巴胺的想法有点牵强，但你没有直接表明它是多巴胺。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So you're being very exact.
所以你说得非常准确。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
No, but I want to be exact and just say that-
不，但我想准确地说——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, appreciate that
是的，很感激
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
...
...
assigning a single function to a chemical is risky.
将单一功能分配给化学品是有风险的。
But that said, I do believe there's a link.
但话虽如此，我确实相信存在联系。
One of the things that you see is in Parkinson's disease, dopaminergic neurotransmitter mission is shot.
你看到的一件事是在帕金森病中，多巴胺能神经递质的使命被破坏。
And depression is also a symptom of Parkinson's disease.
而抑郁症也是帕金森病的症状之一。
It's quite a severe one, in fact.
事实上，这是一个相当严重的问题。
And, so what I think, one theory goes is that dopamine energizes us to seek rewards or to seek information, right?
而且，我认为，一种理论认为，多巴胺激励我们寻求奖励或寻求信息，对吗？
So a big part of movement is you move to get something.
所以运动的一个重要部分就是你为了得到一些东西而运动。
It's approach, right?
这是方法，对吗？
They talk about approach and avoidance as basic kind of things that you want to program.
他们将接近和回避视为您想要编程的基本事物。
And so a person with Parkinson's disease has a problem with willful movement, tremors and stuff too.
因此，患有帕金森病的人也会出现随意运动、颤抖等问题。
But I think that dopamine is involved in this kind of Energizing you to move.
但我认为多巴胺参与了这种激励你移动的过程。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
I think it's involved in energizing you to seek information.
我认为这会激发你寻求信息的动力。
I think it's involved in energizing you to seek rewards.
我认为这与激励你寻求奖励有关。
And so I do think there's some kind of a common pathway there, and it speaks to this issue of the difference, which you've talked about and I talk about a lot, is wanting versus liking.
所以我确实认为那里存在某种共同的途径，它谈到了这个差异问题，你已经谈论过，我也谈论过很多，那就是想要与喜欢。
And so Kent Berridge at Michigan has great work on this recently.
密歇根州的肯特·贝里奇最近在这方面做了很多工作。
Gobs and gobs of manipulations of dopamine activity, and what he finds is an animal, let's say, that is deprived of dopamine, it will go for rewards just fine.
大量操纵多巴胺活动，他发现的是一种动物，比如说，它被剥夺了多巴胺，它会很好地获得奖励。
It just won't work for them.
这对他们来说是行不通的。
It won't do the work that you need to get a reward.
它不会完成您获得奖励所需的工作。
But if you just put it in front of them, they'll take it.
但如果你把它放在他们面前，他们就会接受。
So what dopamine, it is heavily involved with these opioid systems that does drive reward responses, and it's heavily involved in learning about rewards, and that's why you get a big dopaminergic bump when an animal gets a reward.
那么，多巴胺与这些确实驱动奖励反应的阿片类系统密切相关，并且与了解奖励密切相关，这就是为什么当动物获得奖励时，多巴胺能会大幅增加。
Because you're learning about the reward and what predicted the reward.
因为你正在了解奖励以及预测奖励的内容。
There's a little bit of a credit assignment process that takes place.
会发生一些信用分配过程。
What's interesting is you get this too with, actually my colleague at Davis, Brian Wiltshin, some beautiful work where he's looked at trace conditioning, which is when you have a, let's say, if you play a tone and you wait a long time, and then the animal gets a shock, right?
有趣的是，实际上我在戴维斯的同事布莱恩·威尔特辛（Brian Wiltshin）也得到了这一点，他在一些漂亮的工作中研究了痕迹调节，也就是说，当你演奏一个音调并等待很长时间，然后动物就会受到电击，对吧？
And so what you find is that the animal learns to be afraid of the tone, but it's such a long time in his thing, I think it's on the order of 10 seconds or above.
所以你会发现，动物学会了害怕这种声音，但它的时间太长了，我认为大约是 10 秒或以上。
The animal has to be somehow doing something to be able to blame that tone for getting shocked, right?
动物必须以某种方式做某事才能将震惊归咎于这种语气，对吗？
And so what he found was that there's this burst of dopamine activity in the locus coeruleus, which is actually known for norepinephrine, but there's really cool work on dopamine in the LC now, modulating hippocampus.
他发现蓝斑中的多巴胺活动突然爆发，蓝斑实际上以去甲肾上腺素而闻名，但现在蓝斑中的多巴胺确实很酷，可以调节海马体。
Sorry to get all nerdy here, but-
很抱歉让大家都变成书呆子，但是-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, no. Trust me, this audience likes nerdy.
不，不。相信我，这些观众喜欢书呆子。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think that's part of why they're listening.
我认为这就是他们倾听的部分原因。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
So, yeah.
所以，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Locus coeruleus is just an area of the brain that tends to sprinkler large brain areas with epinephrine, which is, or norepinephrine, noradrenaline for alertness, so somewhat distinct from the dopamine system, but you're telling us it can also release dopamine?
蓝斑只是大脑中的一个区域，它倾向于向大片大脑区域喷洒肾上腺素，肾上腺素或去甲肾上腺素，去甲肾上腺素可以提高警觉性，因此与多巴胺系统有些不同，但你是说它也可以释放多巴胺？
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yes.
是的。
That's right.
这是正确的。
And sometimes they co-release from the same neurons, from what I understand.
据我了解，有时它们会从相同的神经元中共同释放。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
And so what seems to be happening is, and he's studying this now, but what seems to be happening is it's not that the animal's going, "Oh, I just heard a tone, I heard a tone," and then they get shocked.
所以似乎正在发生的事情是，他现在正在研究这个，但似乎正在发生的事情并不是动物会说，“哦，我刚刚听到一个声音，我听到一个声音，”然后他们感到震惊。
It may be more like they get a shock, and then they get an immediate, 'What just happened?" And then they get a memory retrieval of the tone, and that allows them to put the two together to learn that this tone caused the shock, right?
可能更像是他们受到了电击，然后他们立即意识到，“刚刚发生了什么？”然后他们获得了音调的记忆检索，这使他们能够将两者放在一起以了解这种音调引起了电击，对吧？
And dopamine seems to be playing a part in that learning process, too.
多巴胺似乎也在学习过程中发挥着作用。
So it's not just about reward, it's really kind of the next time you hear that tone, if it were a real threat, you could actually escape from it, right?
所以这不仅仅是奖励，而是当你下次听到那个声音时，如果它是真正的威胁，你实际上可以逃脱，对吧？
And there's this whole active avoidance literature that you can look at with these approach circuits that are actually quite useful for avoiding threats and avoiding punishment.
您可以查看整个主动回避文献中的这些方法电路，这些方法实际上对于避免威胁和避免惩罚非常有用。
So it's really, to me, I see this role for energizing.
所以，对我来说，我真的认为这个角色充满活力。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
And that's often rewards.
这通常是奖励。
I like rewards as much as the next guy.
我和其他人一样喜欢奖励。
Look at how much coffee I drank when I got here.
看看我刚到这里时喝了多少咖啡。
So it's not that, but it's just that it's mobilizing you, I think.
所以不是那样的，我认为这只是它在调动你。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, AG1.
我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商 AG1。
By now, many of you have heard me say that if I could take just one supplement, that supplement would be AG1.
到目前为止，你们很多人都听我说过，如果我只能服用一种补充剂，那么该补充剂就是 AG1。
The reason for that is AG1 is the highest quality and most complete of the foundational nutritional supplements available.
原因是 AG1 是现有的基础营养补充剂中质量最高、最全面的。
What that means is that it contains not just vitamins and minerals, but also probiotics, prebiotics, and adaptogens to cover any gaps you may have in your diet and provide support for a demanding life.
这意味着它不仅含有维生素和矿物质，还含有益生菌、益生元和适应原，可以弥补您饮食中可能存在的任何空白，并为高要求的生活提供支持。
For me, even if I eat mostly whole foods and minimally processed foods, which I do for most of my food intake, it's very difficult for me to get enough fruits and vegetables, vitamins and minerals, micronutrients, and adaptogens from food alone.
对我来说，即使我主要吃天然食品和最低限度加工的食品（这是我摄入的大部分食物的一部分），我也很难仅从食物中获取足够的水果和蔬菜、维生素和矿物质、微量营养素和适应原。
For that reason, I've been taking AG1 daily since 2012, and often twice a day, once in the morning or mid-morning, and again in the afternoon or evening.
因此，自 2012 年以来，我每天服用 AG1，通常每天两次，一次在早上或上午，一次在下午或晚上。
When I do that, it clearly bolsters my energy, my immune system, and my gut microbiome.
当我这样做时，它明显增强了我的能量、我的免疫系统和我的肠道微生物组。
These are all critical to brain function, mood, physical performance, and much more.
这些对于大脑功能、情绪、身体表现等都至关重要。
If you'd like to try AG1, you can go to drinkag1.com/huberman to claim their special offer.
如果您想尝试 AG1，可以访问 Drinkag1.com/huberman 以获得特别优惠。
Right now, they're giving away five free travel packs plus a year's supply of vitamin D3 K2.
目前，他们赠送五个免费旅行包以及一年的维生素 D3 K2。
Again, that's drinkag1.com/huberman to claim that special offer.
再次强调，您可以通过 Drinkag1.com/huberman 领取特别优惠。
One thing that we talked about just briefly earlier was this non-sleep deep rest protocol-
我们之前简单讨论过的一件事是这种非睡眠深度休息协议 -
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Mm
毫米
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that in yoga tradition is called yoga nidra, or yoga sleep, because you lie down, it's self-directed relaxation, long exhale breathing to slow your heart rate, et cetera.
在瑜伽传统中，这被称为瑜伽休息术，或瑜伽睡眠，因为你躺下，这是自我导向的放松，长时间呼气以减慢你的心率，等等。
I called it NSDR, not to appropriate it, but because the language of yoga nidra is a little bit of a separator for people.
我将其称为 NSDR，并不是为了挪用它，而是因为瑜伽休息术的语言对人们来说有点分隔。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It sounds a little bit esoteric, right?
听起来有点深奥，对吧？
And non-sleep deep rest tells you what it is, right?
非睡眠深度休息告诉你它是什么，对吗？
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There's a study out of the University of Copenhagen, I can provide a link to it in the show note captions, and I'd love your thoughts on it.
哥本哈根大学有一项研究，我可以在节目注释标题中提供该研究的链接，我很想听听您对此的看法。
They show that people who do this practice, this is a PET imaging study.
他们向做这种做法的人表明，这是一项 PET 成像研究。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So positron emission tomography, for those that don't know.
对于那些不知道的人来说，正电子发射断层扫描。
And they see significant increases in striatal dopamine in the condition of people that do this self-directed relaxation, as opposed to a more traditional meditation.
他们发现，与更传统的冥想相比，进行这种自我导向放松的人的纹状体多巴胺显着增加。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Hmm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And this is why I say that NSDR is useful for restoring mental and physical vigor, which translates to this idea that dopamine prepares us for, or is a reservoir for potential movement-
这就是为什么我说 NSDR 对于恢复精神和身体活力很有用，这意味着多巴胺为我们做好了准备，或者是潜在运动的储存库——
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
typically toward rewards.
通常是为了奖励。
And I love that we're talking about some of the other facets of dopamine, because all too often people think about it as pleasure or motivation, and certainly it's involved in motivation.
我喜欢我们谈论多巴胺的其他方面，因为人们常常将其视为快乐或动力，当然它也与动力有关。
And I'm very happy to learn that it's also involved in learning.
我很高兴得知它也参与了学习。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Oh, seriously.
哦，说真的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think that's a novel perspective on dopamine, and we hear so much about dopamine.
我认为这是对多巴胺的新颖视角，我们听说过很多关于多巴胺的事情。
Do you think that when dopamine is released as a consequence of curiosity in a way that primes the memory system That we become entrenched in particular behaviors or routes of pursuing curiosity to the exclusion of others.
你是否认为，当好奇心导致多巴胺以一种启动记忆系统的方式释放时，我们就会陷入特定的行为或追求好奇心的路线而排斥其他人。
What I'm thinking about here is a kid.
我在这里想到的是一个孩子。
We've seen these data.
我们已经看到了这些数据。
Kids with ADHD actually have terrific ability to focus if it's something that they're really excited about, really curious about.
患有注意力缺陷多动症的孩子实际上有很强的注意力集中能力，如果他们真的感到兴奋、好奇的话。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So you give a kid with ADHD who loves video games, a video game, and they're like a laser.
所以你给一个患有多动症的孩子，他喜欢电子游戏，一个电子游戏，他们就像激光一样。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So it's not that they lack the capacity-
所以并不是他们缺乏能力——
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
to focus, it's that they have a harder time dropping into focus.
集中注意力，是因为他们很难集中注意力。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But it seems that because of the learning dimension to dopamine, that these circuits could potentially, quote unquote, "learn" that it's video games that provides that feeling of focus to the exclusion of other things.
但似乎由于多巴胺的学习维度，这些电路可能会“学习”电子游戏提供了一种专注的感觉，从而排除了其他事物。
Meaning, how does one keep a diversification of inputs to the dopamine system so that we're continually driving dopamine through lots of different things as opposed to just social media or just video games or just pick your favorite-
意思是，如何保持多巴胺系统输入的多样化，以便我们通过许多不同的事物不断驱动多巴胺，而不仅仅是社交媒体或视频游戏，或者只是选择你最喜欢的——
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
thing.
事。
Because becoming a functional human being involves the requirement to focus on many things, not just the things we're curious about.
因为成为一个有功能的人需要关注很多事情，而不仅仅是我们好奇的事情。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
To me, I talk about this a little bit in the book, but to me, and if you look at the literature, too, you can see this, a big part of being curious is the appraisal process, so to speak.
对我来说，我在书中谈到了这一点，但对我来说，如果你也看看文献，你可以看到这一点，好奇的很大一部分是评估过程，可以这么说。
And what I mean by that is saying something happens, right?
我的意思是说发生了一些事情，对吗？
Let's say something in your environment happens.
假设您的环境中发生了一些事情。
If you have a decision to make, is this interesting?
如果你要做出决定，这有趣吗？
Is this important?
这重要吗？
Is this scary?
这可怕吗？
And I think the thing is that you need to be open to that possibility that it's interesting.
我认为问题是你需要对这种有趣的可能性持开放态度。
So let me just give you an example that I often give.
让我举一个我经常举的例子。
Let's say you're walking in a neighborhood, you're traveling like you do for many of your events, and you walk into a new neighborhood you haven't been to.
假设您正在一个社区中行走，您正在旅行，就像您参加许多活动一样，并且您走进了一个您从未去过的新社区。
It's nighttime, kind of poorly lit, and you hear a loud noise, right?
现在是晚上，光线很暗，你会听到很大的噪音，对吗？
You could be like, "Well, that's a gunshot.
你可能会说，“好吧，那是一声枪响。
I better hide, or I better run." Or you could be like, "Oh, maybe there's a club nearby and there's a cool band playing.
我最好躲起来，或者我最好逃跑。”或者你可能会说，“哦，也许附近有一个俱乐部，有一支很酷的乐队在演奏。
I should go check this out." That appraisal is really critical for how you respond.
我应该去看看这个。”这种评估对于你的反应方式非常重要。
And so it's not just a matter of curiosity happens.
所以这不仅仅是好奇心的问题。
It's a process of cultivation, and it's a process of appraisal.
这是一个修炼的过程，也是一个评价的过程。
And so, I'm not a wellness guru or anything, but I think this is one of the cool things about mindfulness training, is it forces you to take the mundane and be curious about it.
因此，我不是健康专家或其他任何人，但我认为这是正念训练的最酷的事情之一，它迫使你接受平凡的事物并对它感到好奇。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
And when you start paying attention to your breathing, my friend, Michi Jhas, really turned me onto this.
当你开始关注自己的呼吸时，我的朋友 Michi Jhas 确实让我开始关注这一点。
She wrote a book on mindfulness and meditation, and one of the things that happens is you're breathing, and you realize, "Wait a minute, this one isn't the same as the last one," right?
她写了一本关于正念和冥想的书，其中发生的一件事是你在呼吸，你意识到，“等一下，这个和上一个不一样，”对吗？
Or you can do these meditation-- I'm sure you've done this.
或者你可以做这些冥想——我相信你已经做到了。
This sound is different.
这个声音不一样。
I'll sit in the backyard doing, thanks to you, I do this morning 10-minute thing.
我会坐在后院做，多亏了你，我今天早上做了 10 分钟的事情。
And so I'll be out in the backyard, and I'll be hearing some sound, and I'll be like, "Oh, that sound.
所以我会在后院，我会听到一些声音，我会说，“哦，那个声音。
There's a bird there.
那里有一只鸟。
I didn't even notice that." And then there's some other sound.
我什至没有注意到这一点。”然后还有其他声音。
I'm hearing the freeway.
我听到高速公路的声音。
That's annoying, but I heard it.
这很烦人，但我听到了。
And so it's really a matter of paying attention in some ways and being open to it.
因此，这实际上是一个在某些方面予以关注并对此持开放态度的问题。
And I think this speaks back to this thing about, as you get older, sometimes people find it scary to be in a new place.
我认为这也说明了这一点：随着年龄的增长，有时人们会发现到一个新的地方感到害怕。
People find it scary to meet a person who's different from them or so forth.
人们发现见到一个与自己不同的人等等感到害怕。
I love listening to music that's a little bit out of my comfort zone.
我喜欢听有点超出我舒适区的音乐。
Some people hate it.
有些人讨厌它。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
So I think some of it is sort of cultivating being comfortable with discomfort.
所以我认为其中一些是培养对不适的适应。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think it's such an important theme.
我认为这是一个非常重要的主题。
I feel like nowadays, in part because of the algorithms on social media, we are fed things that feed our progressively greater and greater scrolling and dwell time, as it's called.
我觉得现在，部分是由于社交媒体上的算法，我们得到的东西可以满足我们越来越大的滚动和停留时间，正如它所说的那样。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The algorithms are measuring clearly how long we dwell on a given image and what's in that image and et cetera.
这些算法可以清楚地测量我们在给定图像上停留的时间以及该图像中的内容等等。
But it would be nice to cultivate an algorithm for curiosity.
但培养一种好奇心算法就好了。
Surely it can be done.
当然可以做到。
You got all these smart computer scientists and AI folks.
这里有所有这些聪明的计算机科学家和人工智能人员。
And we come into this world naturally curious.
我们来到这个世界生来就充满好奇。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
All primates, including humans, will visually fixate on anything that's novel, right?
所有灵长类动物，包括人类，都会在视觉上关注任何新奇的东西，对吧？
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And study it.
并研究它。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Try and make predictions and gain understanding.
尝试做出预测并获得理解。
Maybe now would be a good time for us to discuss a little bit about the circuitry involved in memory so that we have that as a template to digest some other themes in memory.
也许现在是我们讨论一下内存中涉及的电路的好时机，这样我们就可以将其作为模板来消化内存中的其他一些主题。
Most people are probably familiar with the so-called hippocampus.
大多数人可能都熟悉所谓的海马体。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Which means seahorse.
这意味着海马。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It looks a little bit like a seahorse, although the anatomist had a little bit of an imagination there, in my opinion.
它看起来有点像海马，尽管在我看来，解剖学家有一点想象力。
But hippocampus, let's add to it prefrontal cortex, which you've already mentioned, and then these neuromodulatory systems.
但是海马体，让我们添加您已经提到过的前额叶皮层，然后添加这些神经调节系统。
So if we were going to assign a one-sentence functional definition to each of those areas, what would you say the hippocampus does?
因此，如果我们要为每个区域指定一个一句话的功能定义，您会说海马体有什么作用？
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Well, first of all-
嗯，首先——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
If you need more than one sentence-
如果您需要不止一句话-
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
...
...
I had a whole lot of other neocortical areas we can talk about.
我还有很多其他新皮质区域我们可以讨论。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Please, and let's add those in.
请让我们添加这些内容。
But I think-
但我认为——
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
if we can start with three, I think then folks-
如果我们可以从三个开始，我想那么伙计们——
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
can digest it.
可以消化它。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
So the hippocampus is controversial.
所以海马体是有争议的。
It's the most studied area of the brain, arguably, except for maybe V1.
可以说，除了 V1 之外，它是大脑中研究最多的区域。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Visual cortex, V1.
视觉皮层，V1。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
But I believe, and my colleagues do, I wrote a big paper with the late Howard Eichenbaum and Andy Unalenes on this, who you know from Davis, and we believe that it's about linking various experiences to a context.
但我相信，我的同事们也相信，我与已故的霍华德·艾肯鲍姆（Howard Eichenbaum）和安迪·乌纳勒尼斯（Andy Unalenes）就此问题写了一篇大论文，你们从戴维斯那里就知道了，我们相信这是关于将各种经历与背景联系起来。
And what I mean by that is you've got information about smell, high-level vision, high-level semantic knowledge information, right?
我的意思是你有关于嗅觉、高级视觉、高级语义知识信息，对吧？
And The hippocampus's wiring is really set up to not understand what's going on.
海马体的线路确实设置得不明白正在发生什么。
So the late David Marr, who's a pioneer in computational neuroscience, proposed that what the hippocampus is about is what he called simple memory.
因此，已故计算神经科学先驱大卫·马尔提出，海马体的作用就是他所说的简单记忆。
It's basically saying, I know Andy Huberman.
它基本上是在说，我认识安迪·胡伯曼。
Sorry.
对不起。
Is that okay if I call you Andy?
我叫你安迪可以吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Please to call me Andy, that's fine.
请叫我安迪，没关系。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Long story.
很长的故事。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
It's a Davis thing.
这是戴维斯的事。
You would understand.
你会明白的。
So, I know Andy Huberman, right?
那么，我认识安迪·休伯曼，对吗？
But to have a memory of this moment that's separate from, let's say, I saw you at some neuroscience retreat when you were in grad school, I have to have some part of the brain that doesn't know who you are to some extent, right?
但是，为了将这一刻的记忆与，比方说，当你读研究生时我在某个神经科学静修会上看到你，我大脑的某些部分必须在某种程度上不知道你是谁，对吗？
Because I got to keep them separate.
因为我必须把它们分开。
And so, the hippocampus, what it'll do is it'll form a memory that's not an Andy Huberman memory.
因此，海马体将形成一种不是安迪·胡伯曼记忆的记忆。
It's an Andy in this place at this time, in this context.
在这个时间、这个背景下，这是一个安迪。
And that's what allows it to support what's called episodic memory, which is your ability to say, "I went to Washington, DC once, and I remember going to the Smithsonian."
这就是让它支持所谓的情景记忆的原因，也就是你说“我去过华盛顿特区一次，我记得去过史密森学会”的能力。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
As opposed to your knowledge about what generally happens in Washington, DC.
与您对华盛顿特区通常发生的事情的了解相反。
Oh, the president's there.
哦，总统在那儿。
Oh, that's where a lot of politics happen.
哦，这就是很多政治发生的地方。
Oh, the Smithsonian is a place in DC.
哦，史密森尼博物馆是华盛顿特区的一个地方。
It's a memory of your being there at a particular place and time.
这是您在特定地点和时间出现的记忆。
Now, there's other parts of the brain that allow you to associate that information in a meaningful way and to be able to actually expand on that context and create these narratives and these stories about them.
现在，大脑的其他部分可以让您以有意义的方式关联这些信息，并能够实际扩展该上下文并创建这些叙述和有关它们的故事。
And where the prefrontal cortex comes in, and it's a huge area, it's about one-third of the primate brain, so it's just massive.
前额叶皮层是其中的一个区域，它是一个很大的区域，大约占灵长类动物大脑的三分之一，所以它非常大。
There are a lot of people who go, "Well, there's a bunch of different areas, and they all do different things." And I subscribe to the view that that is very true, and at the same time, there's a global function of the prefrontal cortex, which is what's called cognitive control.
有很多人会说，“嗯，有很多不同的领域，他们都做不同的事情。”我同意这一观点，这是非常正确的，同时，前额叶皮层具有全局功能，这就是所谓的认知控制。
It's this ability to say, I'm going to regulate my movements, and I'm going to regulate my perceptions and my thoughts based on what's important to me in terms of this higher order goal, right?
正是这种能力说，我将根据这个更高阶目标对我来说重要的事情来调节我的动作，并且我将调节我的感知和思想，对吧？
So when I've tested, for instance, patients with prefrontal lesions, I'm sure Mark D'Esposito talked to you about this, it's like the hallmark of them, they used to say, well, the prefrontal cortex, it's important for working memory, and you could record from neurons in the prefrontal cortex or look at fMRI signal.
例如，当我测试患有前额叶病变的患者时，我确信 Mark D'Esposito 跟你谈过这一点，这就像他们的标志，他们过去常说，嗯，前额叶皮层，它对工作记忆很重要，你可以从前额叶皮层的神经元记录或查看功能磁共振成像信号。
And if a person or an animal is holding something in their mind, like a phone number, neurons or bold signal in MRI will be highly elevated.
如果一个人或一只动物脑子里有一些东西，比如电话号码，神经元或核磁共振成像中的大胆信号就会高度升高。
Their activity will be elevated throughout this period of time where they're holding in mind.
在他们所关注的这段时间里，他们的活动将会增加。
But it turns out, if you just ask somebody with a major prefrontal lesion, "Here's a bunch of numbers, five, two, seven, eight," I ask you to tell them back to me in the right order.
但事实证明，如果你问一个前额叶严重损伤的人，“这里有一堆数字，五、二、七、八”，我会要求你以正确的顺序将它们告诉我。
They can do it just fine.
他们可以做得很好。
But now I start to distract them.
但现在我开始分散他们的注意力。
I move my hands around.
我移动双手。
There's a plane going on, flying outside the window.
窗外有一架飞机正在起飞。
I had that literally happen once.
我确实遇到过一次这种情况。
Now they start to bomb it because their attention is not controlled by their goal.
现在他们开始轰炸它，因为他们的注意力不受他们的目标控制。
It's controlled by the environment around them.
它是受周围环境控制的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
And so this is where things get really interesting.
这就是事情变得非常有趣的地方。
So I once tested a patient, and I'd heard about this, but until you see it, it doesn't register.
所以我曾经测试过一个病人，我听说过这个，但直到你看到它，它才被记录下来。
It really blew my mind.
这真的让我大吃一惊。
So there's a test called the Wisconsin Card Sorting Test, and we don't have to get into all the details of it.
所以有一个叫做威斯康星卡片分类测试的测试，我们不必了解它的所有细节。
But basically, it's this test where people learn some rule about where to put a card on a table, right?
但基本上，通过这个测试，人们可以学习一些关于将卡片放在桌子上的位置的规则，对吗？
And they don't get told the rule.
他们没有被告知规则。
They just learn it.
他们只是学习而已。
And patients with prefrontal damage learn it just fine, right?
前额叶受损的患者学得很好，对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is it that they get an error signal or a correct signal if they're doing it in the right direction, over time, the brain figures it out.
如果他们朝着正确的方向做，他们会得到错误信号还是正确信号，随着时间的推移，大脑会弄清楚。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
So maybe I'll give a little bit more background, but I don't want to go in the weeds.
所以也许我会提供更多的背景知识，但我不想陷入困境。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, that's okay.
不，没关系。
If I'm correct.
如果我是对的。
If I'm wrong, I forget the Wisconsin Card Sorting Test details.
如果我错了，我会忘记威斯康星卡片分类测试的详细信息。
But they're told to just start sorting the cards and that the correct algorithm will reveal itself-
但他们被告知只要开始对卡片进行排序，正确的算法就会揭晓——
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
by a series of error and correct signals.
通过一系列错误和正确信号。
And so maybe I'm taking all the red cards and putting them in one pile, black cards, and putting them another.
所以也许我会把所有的红牌放在一堆，黑牌，然后把它们放在另一堆。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm getting error signals, so then maybe I go odds, evens.
我收到错误信号，所以也许我会选择赔率，偶数。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Maybe I divide by suit, depending on what kind of cards they are.
也许我会按花色来划分，具体取决于它们是什么类型的牌。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Maybe I organize by even, odd alteration, and sooner or later, the brain figures it out.
也许我通过偶数或奇数的改变来组织，迟早，大脑会弄清楚。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yeah, exactly.
是的，完全正确。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
And you don't need a prefrontal cortex to do that.
而且你不需要前额皮质来做到这一点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Really?
真的吗？
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Which is surprising, but you don't.
这很令人惊讶，但你不这么认为。
You can do it.
你可以做到的。
And-
还有——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So there's context-dependent action and learning without the prefrontal cortex.
因此，在没有前额叶皮层的情况下，也存在依赖于情境的行动和学习。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yes, but let's unpack this context thing, right?
是的，但是让我们解开这个上下文，对吧？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
So now you've been, let's say, putting all the diamonds in one pile.
比如说，现在您已经将所有钻石放在一堆了。
You've been putting all the spades in another pile, right?
你已经把所有黑桃放在另一堆里了，对吗？
So now I change the rule, but I don't tell you, and you put the queen of diamonds in the diamond pile, let's say.
所以现在我改变规则，但我不告诉你，你把方块皇后放在钻石堆里，比方说。
And now I say, "Nope, that's wrong." So now you have to say, "Wait a minute.
现在我说：“不，那是错误的。”所以现在你必须说：“等一下。
That was right all this time.
一直都是这样。
What's going on?"
发生什么事了？”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This is like life.
这就像生活。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
This is like life, right?
这就像生活，对吗？
The thing that used to work for you no longer works.
曾经对你有用的东西不再有用了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's right.
没错。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
So you keep doing this, and a person with an intact brain will eventually figure out, okay, that's not working.
所以你继续这样做，一个大脑完好的人最终会发现，好吧，这是行不通的。
I'll try another strategy.
我会尝试另一种策略。
And then they'll learn the new rule, right?
然后他们就会学习新规则，对吗？
It's not easy.
这并不容易。
It's a pain, but people will do it.
这很痛苦，但人们会这么做。
This patient, in particular, kept on using the old rule.
尤其是这位病人，继续沿用旧的规则。
And so you have to give a series of hints going like, "Hmm, what's your strategy here?" And they'll tell you, "I'm putting it according to the color." And then you, "Okay, well, does that appear to be working for you?" And they'll go, "No." And they'll just keep doing it.
所以你必须给出一系列提示，比如“嗯，你的策略是什么？”他们会告诉你，“我是根据颜色来放置的。”然后你，“好吧，这对你有用吗？”他们会说：“不。”他们会继续这样做。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They perseverate.
他们坚持不懈。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
They perseverate.
他们坚持不懈。
But the interesting thing is he knows it's not working, but he can't help himself from doing it.
但有趣的是，他知道这行不通，但他就是情不自禁地这么做。
And so what the prefrontal cortex is, it's not about this declarative knowledge about what you should do.
所以前额叶皮层是什么，它与关于你应该做什么的陈述性知识无关。
And I think this is very deep because I think often we get moralistic about people's actions, especially for people who have head injuries or something like that.
我认为这是非常深刻的，因为我认为我们经常对人们的行为进行道德说教，特别是对于头部受伤或类似情况的人。
And it's like, you can have all of these beliefs that you want to have, but you need the prefrontal cortex to translate these high order beliefs, things that are very abstract, into actual concrete action.
就像，你可以拥有所有你想要拥有的信念，但你需要前额叶皮层将这些高阶信念，非常抽象的东西，转化为实际的具体行动。
Otherwise, what you do is not going to be dictated by that knowledge.
否则，你所做的事情将不会由这些知识决定。
So how this relates to memory is we're constantly barraged by information.
所以这与记忆的关系是我们不断地受到信息的冲击。
I think it might've sit somewhere like 35 terabytes.
我认为它可能有 35 TB 左右。
I don't know.
我不知道。
But it's a big number, and the estimates get bigger and bigger every year.
但这是一个很大的数字，而且估计值每年都在变得越来越大。
So we're barraged by information.
所以我们受到信息的轰炸。
There's no way you can even pay attention to it all, right?
你根本不可能关注这一切，对吧？
So you really rely on the prefrontal cortex to be able to say, "This is what I'm doing right now, and everything else, it's noise.
所以你真的依赖前额叶皮层来说：“这就是我现在正在做的事情，而其他一切都是噪音。
Here's the signal that I need to focus on." And that's super important for memory, because one of the things you see in old age is older people are bad at most memory tasks.
这是我需要关注的信号。”这对于记忆力来说非常重要，因为你在老年时看到的一件事是老年人在大多数记忆任务上都很糟糕。
But it turns out in labs, we kind of overestimate that, and the reason we overestimate it is we're giving them a test, which is something hard, it requires a lot of focus, and it's not something they do every day.
但事实证明，在实验室中，我们有点高估了这一点，我们高估它的原因是我们正在给他们进行测试，这是一件困难的事情，需要大量的注意力，而且这不是他们每天都会做的事情。
But Karen Campbell and Lynn Hasher, these great cognitive psychologists, did this cool experiment where they had a bunch of other stuff that people were supposed to ignore in this memory task, where they're studying a bunch of things, they're trying to memorize a bunch of stuff, but there's stuff going on they're supposed to ignore.
但是凯伦·坎贝尔和林恩·哈舍尔，这些伟大的认知心理学家，做了这个很酷的实验，他们有一堆人们在记忆任务中应该忽略的其他东西，他们正在研究一堆东西，他们试图记住一堆东西，但有些东西正在发生，他们应该忽略。
The older people were just as good as the younger people at remembering the stuff they were supposed to ignore.
老年人和年轻人一样善于记住他们应该忽略的事情。
They were just bad at the stuff that they were supposed to pay attention to.
他们只是不擅长那些他们应该注意的事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's so interesting.
那太有趣了。
Maybe you could say that another time.
也许你可以下次再说。
You said it very clearly.
你说得很清楚了。
I got it.
我得到了它。
But say it one more time, because if anyone missed it, this is super important.
但请再说一遍，因为如果有人错过了，这非常重要。
Older people can-
老年人可以——
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
They were bad at remembering the stuff that they were supposed to remember, but they were just as good as the younger people, maybe even better, but definitely as good as the younger people at remembering the things that they weren't supposed to pay attention to.
他们不擅长记住他们应该记住的事情，但他们和年轻人一样好，甚至可能更好，但在记住他们不应该注意的事情方面绝对和年轻人一样好。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Gosh, it speaks to almost two parallel processing streams for memory, if I'm not mistaken.
天哪，如果我没记错的话，它几乎涉及两个并行的内存处理流。
So what's going on there?
那么那里发生了什么？
Is it that one form of memory involves the suppression of information, and that circuit is actually quite active in these older people and young people?
是不是一种记忆形式涉及信息抑制，而这种回路实际上在这些老年人和年轻人身上相当活跃？
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Whereas curiosity for-
鉴于好奇心——
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Oh, that's interesting
哦，这很有趣
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and the ability to remember and integrate new information is somehow diminished in older people.
老年人记忆和整合新信息的能力在某种程度上有所减弱。
Earlier, we were talking about how that's not the case, if curiosity is intact-
早些时候，我们讨论过，如果好奇心完好无损，情况并非如此——
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
memory is intact and growing.
记忆完好无损并且不断增长。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Well, okay, I should say the benefit of curiosity on memory is intact in older people.
好吧，我应该说好奇心对记忆力的好处对于老年人来说是完好无损的。
I got that wrong.
我错了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
I don't know, Matthias could tell me if I just email him at a break or something.
我不知道，如果我在休息时给他发电子邮件或者什么的，马蒂亚斯可以告诉我。
But, I don't know if curiosity itself is as high in older adults.
但是，我不知道老年人的好奇心是否也一样高。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I would guess-
我猜想——
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
It's just self-reported or...
这只是自我报告，或者...
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I would guess no, but this is why I asked about movement earlier.
我猜不会，但这就是为什么我之前问过运动的问题。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Curiosity is also linked to your ability to access novel scenarios.
好奇心还与您接触新奇场景的能力有关。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Of course, online, you can just thumb scroll or click-
当然，在网上，您只需拇指滚动或单击-
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and access all sorts of novelty.
并获得各种新奇事物。
There must be data as to whether or not people in their 70s, 80s, and 90s are scrolling social media to the same extent that younger people are.
必须有数据表明 70 多岁、80 多岁和 90 多岁的人是否像年轻人一样浏览社交媒体。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
I don't know, but I can say two things to this.
我不知道，但对此我可以说两件事。
One is that definitely there's a lot of work on media multitasking, and-
一是在媒体多任务处理方面肯定有很多工作要做，而且——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
...
...
the short answer is bad for memory, period.
简短的回答对记忆力不好，就这样。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
So scrolling is bad for memory.
所以滚动不利于记忆。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Well, media multitasking is bad for memory.
嗯，媒体多任务处理对记忆不利。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
The tech thing is a super fascinating area in general.
总的来说，科技是一个超级迷人的领域。
It's really how we interact with the tech that's bad.
这确实是我们与技术互动的方式很糟糕。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
But if you're an older adult, your frontal function is not going to be as good.
但如果您是老年人，您的额叶功能就不会那么好。
You will be more distractible.
你会更加分心。
You'll be more likely to go off course.
你将更有可能偏离路线。
And so that scrolling is going to be more potent because, as you pointed out, the algorithms are all designed to suck up our attention.
因此，滚动将会更加有效，因为正如您所指出的，这些算法都是为了吸引我们的注意力而设计的。
So psychologist Herb Simon came up with this beautiful term called the attention economy, right?
所以心理学家赫伯·西蒙（Herb Simon）提出了这个美丽的术语，称为“注意力经济”，对吧？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
And so the idea is that the more information that you have in front of you, the more impoverished you are in terms of your attention.
因此，我们的想法是，你面前的信息越多，你的注意力就越匮乏。
So there's no such thing as free speech because it's like you have a limited supply of attention, so everything has a cost.
所以不存在言论自由这样的东西，因为就像你的注意力是有限的，所以一切都是有成本的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
And so the more information you have in front of you, the harder it is to pay attention to what's important.
因此，您面前的信息越多，就越难关注重要的事情。
And that's where I think the older adults really lose some of their functioning.
我认为这就是老年人真正失去部分功能的地方。
Because basically, I talk about in the book, and it's not a perfect analogy, is neurons are functioning kind of like a democracy in the sense that real democracies involve these political coalitions or alliances, right?
因为基本上，我在书中谈到，这不是一个完美的类比，神经元的功能是否有点像民主国家，因为真正的民主国家涉及这些政治联盟或联盟，对吗？
And people talk about the right and the left, but that's dumb because it's like they're really just alliances between people who like different things.
人们谈论右派和左派，但这很愚蠢，因为它们实际上只是喜欢不同事物的人之间的联盟。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
And they just form these convenient alliances with each other, right?
他们只是互相结成这些方便的联盟，对吧？
But let's just imagine, neurons kind of do this in the brain, right?
但让我们想象一下，神经元在大脑中会这样做，对吗？
And so you have, in theory, to be able to pay attention to something, some coalition of neurons has to be firing a lot that is corresponding to the thing that you're trying to pay attention to.
因此，从理论上讲，为了能够关注某些事物，某些神经元联盟必须大量放电，以与您想要关注的事物相对应。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
But if something is salient, bright, shiny, loud, it's just grabbing your attention.
但如果某件事是显着的、明亮的、有光泽的、响亮的，它就会吸引你的注意力。
What's going to happen is that those neurons start to shout down the neurons that are trying to keep you on what's not shiny, but it's important, right?
将会发生的事情是，那些神经元开始对那些试图让你保持在不闪亮的东西上的神经元大声喊叫，但这很重要，对吧？
And so what happens is with the prefrontal cortex, you can bias that competition.
因此，前额叶皮层会发生什么，你可以让这种竞争产生偏见。
Now, that's the term that people have used in the literature.
现在，这是人们在文献中使用的术语。
So what people have found, for instance, just a really cool finding, again, is you can find in the visual cortex neurons that fire when you're seeing something red, neurons that fire when you see something blue, let's say, right?
例如，人们发现了一个非常酷的发现，你可以在视觉皮层神经元中发现，当你看到红色的东西时，神经元会放电，当你看到蓝色的东西时，神经元会放电，比方说，对吗？
I'm kind of distorting the picture, but you get the idea.
我有点歪曲了图片，但你明白我的意思。
So If an animal is trying to hold in mind something, let's say hold on a mental picture of something that's blue, what happens is the blue neurons are firing in visual cortex even though the animal's not seeing blue.
因此，如果动物试图记住某些东西，比如说记住蓝色的东西的心理图片，就会发生这样的情况：即使动物没有看到蓝色，视觉皮层中的蓝色神经元也会放电。
It's just they're thinking about blue.
只是他们在想蓝色。
You damage the prefrontal cortex, nothing.
你损害了前额皮质，没什么。
So you lose that selectivity.
所以你就失去了这种选择性。
So what's happening is the prefrontal cortex is biasing the competition and saying, "I know there's no shiny blue thing in front of you right now, but I need these neurons to stay active." And so it's doing this modulation to help out the neurons that are keeping the information that's goal relevant.
所以发生的事情是前额叶皮层对竞争产生了偏见，并说：“我知道你面前现在没有闪亮的蓝色东西，但我需要这些神经元保持活跃。”因此，它进行这种调制是为了帮助神经元保持与目标相关的信息。
So what happens when that communication goes, let's say due to hypertension, diabetes, you get all this white matter damage that happens with old age, and this is really-
那么当这种沟通消失时会发生什么，比方说，由于高血压、糖尿病，你会受到老年时发生的所有白质损伤，这真的是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
...
...
a big thing that is very preventable with the right protocols, so to speak.
可以说，通过正确的协议，这是可以预防的大事。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'll just briefly, white matter are the fiber tracts, the wires essentially that connect neurons across long and short distances.
我简单地说一下，白质是纤维束，本质上是长距离和短距离连接神经元的电线。
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Exactly, yeah.
没错，是的。
And so if you damage those long-range tracts, the prefrontal cortex is not efficiently able to bias that competition, and so now the inane gets remembered at the expense of the important.
因此，如果你损坏了这些长距离区域，前额叶皮层就无法有效地使竞争产生偏差，所以现在，无聊的事情会以牺牲重要的事情为代价而被记住。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
That's, I think, the key thing, and that's why people talk about the prefrontal cortex as the central executive.
我认为这是关键，也是人们将前额叶皮层视为中央执行机构的原因。
As anybody who's worked a job knows, it's like the executives are useless, right?
任何工作过的人都知道，高管们好像没什么用，对吗？
You try to get an executive to do-- Except for some who are useful, but then they don't really run companies very well.
你试图让一位高管去做——除了一些有用的人，但他们并不能很好地管理公司。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There are some CEOs that are doing spectacular things, but-
有些首席执行官正在做一些了不起的事情，但是——
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Well, okay, we won't go there.
好吧，好吧，我们不去那里。
Controversial, shall we say.
我们可以说，这是有争议的。
But anyway, so a good executive, their job isn't to micromanage.
但无论如何，优秀的高管的工作不是进行微观管理。
Their job is to say, "Here's the big picture.
他们的工作是说：“这是大局。
Here's my vision for the company, and I want everyone to be working towards this goal." Not sifting through the mail room, not paying the bills.
这是我对公司的愿景，我希望每个人都为这个目标而努力。”不检查邮件室，不支付账单。
And so what happens is that when you have certain kinds of things that happen with aging, like damage to the white matter that happens through essentially tiny cerebrovascular events most likely, and we've done some research on this in our lab in collaboration with Bill Jagust, who's now in Berkeley, and Charlie DeCarli, and you can measure this in MRIs with a measure called white matter hyperintensities.
因此，当你随着衰老而发生某些事情时，比如最有可能通过本质上微小的脑血管事件而发生的白质损伤，我们在实验室与现在在伯克利的比尔·贾古斯特和查理·德卡利合作对此进行了一些研究，你可以在核磁共振成像中用一种称为白质高信号的测量来测量这一点。
You use a scan that shows up little bright spots where the white matter is probably damaged.
您使用的扫描可以显示白质可能受损的小亮点。
And what you find is that these people with white matter hyperintensities actually have memory performance that's as poor as people who have hippocampal atrophy, probably in the earliest stages of Alzheimer's.
你会发现，这些患有白质高信号的人的记忆力实际上和患有海马萎缩的人一样差，很可能处于阿尔茨海默病的早期阶段。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
And they're also bad at controlling information even when they don't have to remember something.
即使他们不需要记住某些事情，他们也不擅长控制信息。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Interesting.
有趣。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
So it's like a double whammy, and it's like the executive is trapped in a remote place, and they got no internet access and no phone, and so they can't communicate with the company as everybody's just doing their own thing.
所以这就像双重打击，就像高管被困在一个偏远的地方，他们无法访问互联网，也没有电话，因此他们无法与公司沟通，因为每个人都在做自己的事情。
And that's a little bit of what can happen with aging.
这就是衰老过程中可能发生的一些情况。
It doesn't have to, but that can happen.
不一定，但这种情况可能会发生。
And you see this to a really great extent in many disorders.
在许多疾病中你都可以看到这一点。
This is why so many disorders really affect control and frontal function.
这就是为什么如此多的疾病确实影响控制和额叶功能。
Multiple sclerosis, diabetes, many kinds of things.
多发性硬化症、糖尿病等等。
We talked about brain fog, but many kinds of inflammatory conditions will affect it.
我们谈到了脑雾，但多种炎症都会影响它。
Depression, clinical depressions.
抑郁症，临床抑郁症。
I've seen people, older adults with depression, who are cognitively more impaired than people in the MCI stage of Alzheimer's.
我见过一些患有抑郁症的老年人，他们的认知能力比处于阿尔茨海默氏症 MCI 阶段的人更严重。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Really?
真的吗？
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So depression is dangerous for memory.
因此，抑郁症对记忆力来说是危险的。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
It's terrible for memory, and it seems to be a risk factor for Alzheimer's as well.
它对记忆力很糟糕，而且似乎也是阿尔茨海默病的一个危险因素。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do you think that depression is dangerous for memory and a risk factor for Alzheimer's because it is, by definition, anti-curiosity?
您是否认为抑郁症对记忆有危险，并且是阿尔茨海默病的危险因素，因为根据定义，抑郁症会反好奇心？
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
I would probably not say that.
我可能不会这么说。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
I would say also, I don't know what-- Once you get into these things in the epidemiological world, everything interacts with each other.
我还要说，我不知道——一旦你进入流行病学世界的这些事情，一切都会相互作用。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
And there's genetics, and there's environment, and blah, blah, blah.
还有遗传，还有环境，等等等等。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Depression means poor sleep, which means poor learning, which means et cetera.
抑郁意味着睡眠不佳，学习不佳，等等。
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
I think that's a big part of it.
我认为这是其中很大一部分。
I think that's a big part.
我认为这是一个很大的部分。
Okay, so let's go back to your question, because I do think curiosity is affected by depression.
好吧，让我们回到你的问题，因为我确实认为好奇心会受到抑郁的影响。
I don't know the research on this, but I would be shocked if it isn't.
我不知道这方面的研究，但如果不是的话我会感到震惊。
And I do think that dopamine activity is disrupted in depression, and your motivation to get anhedonia is one of the hallmark symptoms of depression.
我确实认为多巴胺活动在抑郁症中受到干扰，而你获得快感缺失的动机是抑郁症的标志症状之一。
As is rumination, by the way, which is memory retrieval of preferential negative retrieval of negative events-
顺便说一下，沉思也是如此，这是对负面事件的优先负面检索的记忆检索——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right
右
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
...
...
and cogitating over them.
并思考它们。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd like to take a quick break and thank one of our sponsors, Function.
我想稍微休息一下，并感谢我们的赞助商之一 Function。
I recently became a Function member after searching for the most comprehensive approach to lab testing.
在寻找最全面的实验室测试方法后，我最近成为了 Function 成员。
While I've long been a fan of blood testing, I really wanted to find a more in-depth program for analyzing blood, urine, and saliva to get a full picture of my heart health, my hormone status, my immune system regulation, my metabolic function, my vitamin and mineral status, and other critical areas of my overall health and vitality.
虽然我长期以来一直热衷于血液检测，但我真的很想找到一个更深入的程序来分析血液、尿液和唾液，以全面了解我的心脏健康状况、我的激素状态、我的免疫系统调节、我的代谢功能、我的维生素和矿物质状态以及我整体健康和活力的其他关键领域。
Function not only provides testing of over 100 biomarkers key to physical and mental health, but it also analyzes these results and provides insights from top doctors on your results.
Function 不仅提供对身心健康至关重要的 100 多种生物标志物的测试，还分析这些结果并提供顶级医生对结果的见解。
For example, in one of my first tests with Function, I learned that I had too high levels of mercury in my blood.
例如，在我第一次使用 Function 进行测试时，我发现我的血液中汞含量过高。
This was totally surprising to me.
这让我完全惊讶。
I had no idea prior to taking the test.
参加考试之前我不知道。
Function not only helped me detect this, but offered medical doctor-informed insights on how to best reduce those mercury levels, which included limiting my tuna consumption, because I had been eating a lot of tuna, while also making an effort to eat more leafy greens and supplementing with NAC, N-acetylcysteine, both of which can support glutathione production and detoxification, and worked to reduce my mercury levels.
功能不仅帮助我发现了这一点，而且还为我提供了关于如何最好地降低汞含量的医生知情见解，其中包括限制我的金枪鱼消费，因为我一直在吃大量金枪鱼，同时还努力吃更多的绿叶蔬菜并补充 NAC、N-乙酰半胱氨酸，这两者都可以支持谷胱甘肽的产生和解毒，并努力降低我的汞含量。
Comprehensive lab testing like this is so important for health, and while I've been doing it for years, I've always found it to be overly complicated and expensive.
像这样的综合实验室测试对健康非常重要，虽然我已经这样做了很多年，但我总是发现它过于复杂和昂贵。
I've been so impressed by Function, both at the level of ease of use, that is, getting the tests done, as well as how comprehensive and how actionable the tests are, that I recently joined their advisory board, and I'm thrilled that they're sponsoring the podcast.
Function 给我留下了深刻的印象，无论是在易用性方面，即完成测试，还是在测试的全面性和可操作性方面，我最近加入了他们的顾问委员会，我很高兴他们赞助了这个播客。
If you'd like to try Function, go to functionhealth.com/huberman.
如果您想尝试 Function，请访问 functionhealth.com/huberman。
Function currently has a wait list of over 250,000 people, but they're offering early access to Huberman Lab listeners.
Function 目前有超过 250,000 人的等待名单，但他们正在为 Huberman Lab 听众提供早期访问机会。
Again, that's functionhealth.com/huberman to get early access to Function.
同样，可以通过 functionhealth.com/huberman 提前访问 Function。
You probably think a fair amount about age-related cognitive decline and Alzheimer's.
您可能对与年龄相关的认知能力下降和阿尔茨海默氏症有很多思考。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I'm just curious, at a personal level, what are the sorts of things that you do to try and offset cognitive decline?
我只是好奇，在个人层面上，你会采取哪些措施来尝试抵消认知能力下降？
You seem to be a very vivacious and curious person.
你看起来是一个非常活泼和好奇的人。
I've known you a long time, and I don't know whether or not you were caffeinated every time we met, but you have a lot of energy.
我认识你很久了，不知道每次见面你有没有喝咖啡，但你很有活力。
You're a very curious person.
你是一个非常好奇的人。
You just wrote a book, we'll talk more about, and you're going on podcasts.
您刚刚写了一本书，我们将详细讨论，并且您将上播客。
You're doing a lot of things besides running a world-class research laboratory.
除了运营世界一流的研究实验室之外，您还做了很多事情。
So clearly, a lot of curiosity.
很明显，有很多好奇心。
What do the data say about ways to maintain or enhance one's memory capacity, with the understanding that curiosity is probably involved, as we talked about earlier, but at a really basic level?
这些数据对于维持或增强一个人的记忆能力的方法有何说明，正如我们之前讨论的那样，好奇心可能与好奇心有关，但只是在非常基本的层面上？
A number of things leap to mind, but I'm just curious, if you had to pick three to five things that are clearly substantiated in the data as supporting the maintenance or enhancement of memory as we get older, what are those?
很多事情浮现在脑海中，但我很好奇，如果你必须选择三到五件事，这些事情在数据中明确证实为随着年龄的增长支持记忆的维持或增强，那是什么呢？
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
As a memory researcher, I almost find myself ashamed when I talk about these things, because as you know, so many of the most important factors are ones that are related to just health.
作为一名记忆研究人员，当我谈论这些事情时，我几乎感到羞愧，因为如你所知，许多最重要的因素都与健康有关。
So for instance, you mentioned sleep.
例如，你提到了睡眠。
That's a big one.
那是一件大事。
Actually, there's a beautiful study that speaks to this that was done, 29,000 subjects in China, and they followed them up for 10 years.
事实上，有一项出色的研究证明了这一点，该研究对中国 29,000 名受试者进行了长达 10 年的跟踪调查。
So they divided people into three groups.
所以他们把人们分为三组。
Well, what they said is there's six lifestyle factors that we're going to investigate.
嗯，他们说我们要调查六个生活方式因素。
One was, I think, engagement in cognitive activities.
我认为，其中之一是参与认知活动。
I think one was social engagement.
我认为其中之一是社交参与。
One was physical exercise, not smoking, I think no alcohol.
一是体育锻炼，不抽烟，我想也不喝酒。
But they identified these lifestyle factors that were basically just kind of good lifestyle factors, right?
但他们发现这些生活方式因素基本上只是一种良好的生活方式因素，对吧？
So they get people who have four to six of these lifestyle factors going, versus zero to one of these lifestyle factors.
因此，他们让那些具有四到六种生活方式因素的人继续下去，而不是零到一种这些生活方式因素。
We'll just take the extreme.
我们就采取极端的做法吧。
When they start, they're all the same.
当他们开始时，他们都是一样的。
Ten years later, the people with four to six lifestyle factors going for them are performing almost twice as high on memory tests as the people with zero to one lifestyle factors.
十年后，具有四到六种生活方式因素的人在记忆测试中的表现几乎是具有零到一种生活方式因素的人的两倍。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wow.
哇。
So these are people exercising, paying attention to their sleep, social engagement.
这些人正在锻炼、关注睡眠和社交活动。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What are some of the other?
其他的还有哪些呢？
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Oh, I believe-
哦，我相信——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm guessing low inflammatory diet.
我猜是低炎症饮食。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Definitely not smoking.
绝对不抽烟。
And smoking and alcohol, I think, were big ones.
我认为吸烟和酗酒是大问题。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The smoking one is interesting because we know smoking can cause cancer-
吸烟这一点很有趣，因为我们知道吸烟会致癌——
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and cardiovascular risk is real there, although there are some data, as I understand, that nicotine itself, not smoking, vaping, dipping, or snuffing, but that nicotine-
心血管风险是真实存在的，尽管据我所知，有一些数据表明尼古丁本身，不是吸烟、吸电子烟、吸食或吸鼻烟，而是尼古丁——
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Mm
毫米
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
can be pro-cognition and maybe even pro-memory.
可以有利于认知，甚至有利于记忆。
And nowadays-
而如今——
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
people are using nicotine more and more.
人们越来越多地使用尼古丁。
I'm not a big proponent of this because of the blood pressure increase and the typical routes of administration are dangerous.
我不太支持这种做法，因为血压会升高，而且典型的给药途径很危险。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But nicotine, I've been told, is protective for Parkinson's and Alzheimer's.
但有人告诉我，尼古丁对帕金森氏症和阿尔茨海默氏症有保护作用。
Is that true?
这是真的吗？
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Well, by the way, I just have to say, I forgot healthy diet.
好吧，顺便说一句，我只想说，我忘记了健康饮食。
Healthy diet was a big one, too.
健康饮食也很重要。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Which I define as, people wonder, what is that?
我将其定义为，人们想知道，那是什么？
And there are all these online debates about-
所有这些网上辩论都是关于——
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
vegan, vegetarian, carnivore, blah, blah, blah.
素食主义者，素食主义者，肉食动物，等等，等等。
But I think most people in the world are omnivores.
但我认为世界上大多数人都是杂食动物。
Most.
最多。
And I think it's very clear that the number one thing for a healthy diet is to try and get most of one's food from non-processed or minimally processed sources.
我认为很明显，健康饮食的首要任务是尝试从未加工或最低限度加工的来源获取大部分食物。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That sort of sets you in the right direction.
这会让你朝着正确的方向前进。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So I was actually emailing with Dean and Ayesha Sherzai, who really talk a lot about this.
所以我实际上是在给 Dean 和 Ayesha Sherzai 发电子邮件，他们确实谈论了很多这个问题。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Yeah, they do great work.
是的，他们做得很好。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
They do great work.
他们做得很好。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
And so they were actually sending me some stuff, and I had known about some of this, but Mediterranean diet has worked really well.
所以他们实际上给我寄了一些东西，我已经知道其中一些，但地中海饮食非常有效。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Olive oil, fruits, vegetables, fish, eggs, limited amounts of meat.
橄榄油、水果、蔬菜、鱼、蛋、少量肉类。
Although I'm half Argentine, so I'm a-
虽然我有一半阿根廷血统，所以我是——
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yeah, you like your steaks.
是的，你喜欢牛排。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I do.
我愿意。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Which I think is, let me come back to this point, because I think it's super important, but leafy greens were a big one.
我认为，让我回到这一点，因为我认为这非常重要，但绿叶蔬菜是一个重要因素。
They pointed out a Rush Presbyterian study that I didn't know about that put people on, I think it was called the DASH diet, and it included leafy greens as a big part of it, and that had a dramatic increase in cognitive-- dramatically preserved cognitive performance in people who were on that diet.
他们指出了一项我不知道的 Rush Presbyterian 研究，该研究让人们采用了 DASH 饮食，其中绿叶蔬菜是其中的一个重要组成部分，并且这种饮食的人的认知能力得到了显着的提高——显着地保留了采用这种饮食的人的认知能力。
So the healthy diet is a big part.
所以健康饮食是很重要的一部分。
Now, nicotine's interesting.
现在，尼古丁很有趣。
So if you notice, a lot of people with schizophrenia smoke, and one of the things that's been found is that nicotine does seem to improve cognitive functioning in people with schizophrenia.
因此，如果您注意到的话，很多精神分裂症患者都会吸烟，而已发现的一件事是尼古丁似乎确实可以改善精神分裂症患者的认知功能。
Now, I think the big thing to remember about any kind of drug, and this goes for food effects probably, too, but especially drugs, is there's huge individual differences.
现在，我认为对于任何种类的药物，最重要的是要记住，这可能也适用于食物的影响，但特别是药物，是存在巨大的个体差异。
Huge.
巨大的。
And so just to give you an example, I could not function without that coffee that I had this morning and then coming in here.
举个例子，如果没有今天早上喝的咖啡然后来到这里，我就无法工作。
But my daughter would not be functional after those cups of coffee.
但我女儿喝完这些咖啡后就无法正常工作了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Some people really are affected by these different things differently.
有些人确实会受到这些不同事物的不同影响。
And then, of course, there's always a dose-response curve, and they often follow these inverted U's.
当然，总是存在剂量反应曲线，而且它们通常遵循这些倒 U 形曲线。
So Mark D'Esposito, who was my postdoc mentor, did a lot of work with dopaminergic drugs.
因此，我的博士后导师马克·德斯波西托（Mark D'Esposito）在多巴胺能药物方面做了很多工作。
And a lot of people who had done these drug studies early on, on cognition, they would find no effects, or sometimes they would make people worse.
许多早期进行过这些药物研究的人，在认知方面，他们会发现没有任何影响，或者有时会使人变得更糟。
And what he found was that if you looked more carefully, there was an inverted U effect, where some people, and it depended on their working memory capacity, were actually benefiting from the drug.
他发现，如果你仔细观察，就会发现存在倒U型效应，有些人（这取决于他们的工作记忆能力）实际上从该药物中受益。
And then these other people who were, let's say, I can't remember if it was higher or lower, were doing worse.
然后这些其他人，比如说，我不记得是更高还是更低，他们的表现却更糟。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
And there's a genetic component to that, unsurprisingly.
毫不奇怪，这其中有遗传因素。
Dopamine transporters play a role and so forth.
多巴胺转运蛋白发挥作用等等。
And so now you start to get into all of these gene-environment drug interactions that are just, I would really caution people against saying, "Nicotine is good.
所以现在你开始了解所有这些基因-环境药物相互作用，我真的警告人们不要说，“尼古丁是好的。
Nicotine is bad." I think it really is a much more complex issue.
尼古丁不好。”我认为这确实是一个复杂得多的问题。
It's just like marijuana, right?
就像大麻一样，对吧？
So you can look at smoking weed in adolescence For people who are at high genetic risk for psychosis, it dramatically increases your risk for psychosis.
所以你可以看看在青春期吸食大麻对于那些有精神病遗传风险的人来说，它会大大增加你患精神病的风险。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's my understanding too.
我的理解也是如此。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Although the times I've said that on the internet, I caught a lot of pushback from some of the cannabis researchers.
尽管我多次在互联网上说过这样的话，但我还是遭到了一些大麻研究人员的强烈反对。
But then having invited one of them on this podcast-
但随后在这个播客上邀请了其中一位——
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I then got subsequent input from other researchers which counter their narrative, which we can both say because we're both research scientists, that's what you call a field.
然后我得到了其他研究人员的后续意见，这些意见反驳了他们的说法，我们都可以这么说，因为我们都是研究科学家，这就是你所说的领域。
Yeah.
是的。
So-
所以——
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Okay, maybe cut out any misinformation I might have said in the edit.
好吧，也许删掉我在编辑中可能说过的任何错误信息。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, you didn't.
不，你没有。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think the point is just that it's very clear that there are certain individuals for whom high THC consumption can trigger psychotic episodes.
我认为重点是，很明显，对于某些人来说，高 THC 消费会引发精神病发作。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yeah, and we're seeing this with-
是的，我们看到的是-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But not everyone.
但不是所有人。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And so-
所以——
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
We're now interestingly seeing this with psychedelics, where it's like all these positive effects of psychedelics are being brought up, but a lot of people remember the negative effects on people like Rocky Erickson from the 13th Floor Elevators or Syd Barrett from Pink Floyd, who became psychotic after doing large amounts of LSD.
有趣的是，我们现在在迷幻药上看到了这一点，就像迷幻药的所有这些积极作用都被提出来一样，但很多人还记得迷幻药对像 13 楼电梯的洛基·埃里克森 (Rocky Erickson) 或平克·弗洛伊德 (Pink Floyd) 的西德·巴雷特 (Syd Barrett) 这样的人的负面影响，他们在服用大量 LSD 后变得精神病。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What was the first example?
第一个例子是什么？
Rocky-
洛基-
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Rocky Erickson from the 13th Floor Elevators.
来自 13 楼电梯的洛基·埃里克森。
Great psychedelic band.
伟大的迷幻乐队。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, psychedelic.
哦，迷幻的。
Okay, we'll talk more about that.
好的，我们会详细讨论这一点。
Charon is himself a rock and roll musician and loves rock and roll, hence the reference to Rick Rubin earlier.
Charon 本人就是一位摇滚音乐家，热爱摇滚乐，因此前面提到了 Rick Rubin。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And there's a photo of Rick here in the studio that our photographer, Mike Blabac, took.
这里有一张 Rick 在工作室里的照片，是我们的摄影师 Mike Blabac 拍摄的。
So we were looking at that together.
所以我们一起研究这个问题。
So yes, psychedelics have claimed the minds of certain people, helped contribute to their preexisting, presumably, psychosis.
所以，是的，致幻剂已经占领了某些人的思想，并助长了他们先前存在的精神病。
I should also say, in fairness to the other compounds out there, methamphetamines have also significantly contributed to the progression of psychosis in many people.
我还应该说，公平地对待其他化合物，甲基苯丙胺也显着促进了许多人精神病的进展。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So it's not just psychedelics.
所以这不仅仅是迷幻药。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then, of course, there are those who have somehow managed to take psychedelics and become more sane.
当然，还有一些人通过服用迷幻药而变得更加理智。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Yeah, and I saw this-
是的，我看到了这个——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or at least remain at least as sane as they were before.
或者至少保持像以前一样理智。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
And of course, sanity's in the eye of the beholder, too.
当然，情人眼里出西施。
But what I'll say is that, yeah, and you can see this actually, there's some new concern about Adderall and stimulants.
但我要说的是，是的，你实际上可以看到这一点，人们对阿得拉和兴奋剂有一些新的担忧。
And if you're giving it to people who might be at high risk for schizophrenia, it might also promote psychosis.
如果你将其给予可能患有精神分裂症高风险的人，它也可能会促进精神病。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That makes sense-
这是有道理的——
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Makes sense
有道理
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
given the noradrenergic dopaminergic involvement in schizophrenia, and those drugs are proto-noradrenergic dopaminergic in general.
鉴于精神分裂症涉及去甲肾上腺素能多巴胺能，而这些药物通常是原去甲肾上腺素能多巴胺能。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Exactly.
确切地。
So it's really a much more complicated interaction, and I think this is where this whole realm of personalized medicine will be super helpful.
所以这确实是一个更加复杂的互动，我认为这就是整个个性化医疗领域将非常有帮助的地方。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
But there does seem to be a broad general effect for certain dietary interventions.
但某些饮食干预措施似乎确实具有广泛的总体效果。
Berries seem to be good.
浆果好像不错。
Leafy greens seem to be good.
绿叶蔬菜似乎不错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So eat healthy.
所以吃得健康。
We talked about that.
我们讨论过这个。
Exercise.
锻炼。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And my understanding, I've been looking at this in detail lately, but I'd love your thoughts, is that while everybody, we now believe men, women, et cetera, should do both cardiovascular exercise-
我的理解是，我最近一直在详细研究这个问题，但我很想听听你的想法，虽然我们现在相信男人、女人等人都应该进行心血管锻炼——
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
so to speak, elevate heart rate for 12 to 60 minutes kind of thing, depending on the intensity, as well as resistance training-
可以这么说，提高心率 12 到 60 分钟之类的事情，具体取决于强度以及阻力训练 -
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
to maintain neuromuscular function, offset sarcopenia, et cetera.
维持神经肌肉功能，抵消肌肉减少症等。
To me, the really impressive effects of exercise on learning capacity and the brain in terms of brain health-
对我来说，运动对学习能力和大脑健康的真正令人印象深刻的影响——
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
seem to come from cardiovascular exercise.
似乎来自心血管锻炼。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And that could just be because that's what's been emphasized in the studies.
这可能只是因为研究强调了这一点。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But even when one looks at some and compares the best human studies-
但即使当人们查看一些并比较最好的人类研究时——
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
it really does seem like getting blood flow up to the brain-
看起来确实像是让血液流向大脑——
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
getting a nice release of neuromodulators into the brain facilitates learning.
让神经调节剂充分释放到大脑中可以促进学习。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then, of course, people have to do something with that learning.
当然，人们必须利用学到的知识做点什么。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
So, do you make an effort to exercise for the specific purpose of maintaining or enhancing brain function?
那么，您是否为了维持或增强大脑功能而努力锻炼呢？
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yes.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Actually, so when I finished my book, I limped to the finish line.
事实上，当我读完书时，我一瘸一拐地走到了终点线。
I had all sorts of crazy stuff happen.
我经历过各种疯狂的事情。
I won't depress the readers with all the crazy stuff that I've gone through.
我不会用我经历过的所有疯狂的事情让读者感到沮丧。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, I'm sure people will be curious.
不，我相信人们会很好奇。
Well, what does it take to finish a book and how much-- You mean you took a toll on your body?
好吧，完成一本书需要什么以及多少钱——你的意思是你对你的身体造成了伤害？
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
It took probably, I don't know, I probably lost some biological years in that.
我可能花了一些时间，我不知道，我可能因此失去了一些生物学上的岁月。
But it was great.
但这很棒。
It was really an emotional rollercoaster, though.
不过，这确实是一次情绪过山车。
But then I had a bunch of, I'm trying to do science, write this book basically in my spare time, which doesn't really exist as you know how it goes.
但后来我有很多想法，我正在尝试做科学，基本上在我的业余时间写这本书，这实际上并不存在，因为你知道它是如何进行的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sure.
当然。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
And then I had life happen.
然后我的生活就发生了。
My mom was in the hospital, and my cat died on my birthday.
我妈妈住院了，我的猫在我生日那天死了。
It was just like, yeah, see, I didn't want to depress people with all this stuff.
就像，是的，看，我不想用这些东西让人们感到沮丧。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's real life.
这是现实生活。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
But it was like-
但它就像——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm just sorry to hear it.
我只是很遗憾听到这个消息。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
No. It's okay.
不，没关系。
So then I finished my book, and I was just thoroughly thrashed, and I had a sabbatical because I wanted to have time to promote the book and educate people about what's in the book, which I'd never gotten a chance to do before.
然后我完成了我的书，我受到了彻底的打击，我休假了，因为我想有时间宣传这本书并教育人们了解书中的内容，这是我以前从未有过的机会。
It's like doing this.
就像这样做一样。
Fantastic, right?
太棒了，对吧？
I get to talk to people.
我可以和人们交谈。
So, I really wanted to make some changes, and actually, this gets to something we were talking about before we started recording, which is, after I wrote the book, it's going in the proofing stage, I was talking to my daughter, and just out of the blue, she said, we were talking about ADHD, and she's like: "Dad, you totally have ADHD." And I'm like: "What?" And I'm like, oh, Gen Z, overdiagnosis of ADHD, whatever, right?
所以，我真的想做出一些改变，实际上，这涉及到我们在开始录制之前讨论的事情，也就是说，在我写完这本书之后，它进入了校对阶段，我正在和我的女儿说话，她突然说，我们正在谈论多动症，她说：“爸爸，你完全患有多动症。”我说：“什么？”我想，哦，Z 世代，多动症的过度诊断，无论如何，对吧？
And then I remembered when I was a kid, my school contacted my parents and said: "He has ADHD." And it was interesting because it was like I actually was ahead in school by a year, and I got held back because I just was so socially bad.
然后我记得当我还是个孩子的时候，我的学校联系了我的父母并说：“他患有多动症。”这很有趣，因为我在学校里实际上领先了一年，但我却因为我的社交能力太差而受到阻碍。
I couldn't stop talking in class, and I was just really awkward and impulsive.
我在课堂上不停地说话，我真的很尴尬而且很冲动。
But it was the '70s.
但那是20世纪70年代。
Nobody did anything.
没有人做任何事。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
And I had all sorts of behavior issues and so forth, and there are other factors going on, too.
我有各种各样的行为问题等等，还有其他因素也在发生。
But it really got me thinking, oh my God, I got to make some changes.
但这确实让我想到，天哪，我必须做出一些改变。
I'm living this unsustainable life where I'm jumping from crisis to crisis to crisis, and I say, "I don't have time for blah, blah, blah." And so Again, this is going to sound depressing, but it's got a happier ending.
我过着这种不可持续的生活，从一个危机跳到另一个危机，然后我说，“我没有时间废话，废话，废话。”再说一次，这听起来令人沮丧，但它有一个更幸福的结局。
So my dog had died in 2019 of cancer, and that was my first dog.
我的狗于 2019 年死于癌症，那是我的第一只狗。
And so I thought, "I'm never getting a dog again." And in 2020 in the pandemic, I got another dog because I was like-
所以我想，“我再也不会养狗了。”在 2020 年的大流行中，我又养了一只狗，因为我就像——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Good for you.
对你有好处。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yeah, and-
是的，还有-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What kind of dog?
什么样的狗？
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Both of these were shelter dogs.
这两只都是收容所的狗。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Great.
太棒了。
Good for you.
对你有好处。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
They're all mixes.
他们都是混合体。
I'm sure there's some pit bull in her because every shelter dog either has pit bull or-
我确信她身上有斗牛犬的基因，因为每只收容所的狗要么有斗牛犬，要么——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or Chihuahua
或者吉娃娃
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
...
...
or Chihuahua, exactly.
确切地说是吉娃娃。
But she looks very Belgian Malinois, and she moves like a Belgian Malinois.
但她看起来很像比利时玛利诺犬，而且她的动作也像比利时玛利诺犬。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Beautiful dogs.
美丽的狗。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
And they're so smart and super athletic.
他们非常聪明，而且运动能力超强。
She can jump vertically.
她可以垂直跳跃。
When I'll come home, she'll jump up and then push herself off me, which is a very classic thing, and so that's why they can jump.
当我回家时，她会跳起来，然后把自己从我身上推开，这是一个非常经典的事情，所以这就是为什么他们可以跳。
She can climb up seven feet up a tree to chase a squirrel.
她可以爬到七英尺高的树上去追松鼠。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, they use these for military operations-
是的，他们用这些来进行军事行动-
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in Tier 1 military.
在一级军事中。
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They're trained to jump out of planes-
他们接受过跳出飞机的训练-
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
with parachutes.
与降落伞。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
But she's a smaller dog, so our older dog looked like kind of-- She wasn't.
但她是一只较小的狗，所以我们的大狗看起来有点——但她不是。
She was actually a Kelpie mix, I think, but she looked like a Rottweiler, and so everyone was scared of her, even though she was the sweetest dog.
我认为她实际上是水鬼混血儿，但她看起来像罗威纳犬，所以每个人都害怕她，尽管她是最可爱的狗。
This one, she's smaller, even though she looks kind of shepherd-like.
这个，她比较小，尽管她看起来有点像牧羊人。
Everyone's like, "Oh, your dog is so sweet.
每个人都会说：“哦，你的狗真可爱。
She's so cute."
她真可爱。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You're like, "But this one's the ninja."
你会说，“但这就是忍者。”
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Yeah.
是的。
All shelter dogs have a little bit of a crazy switch in them, don't they?
所有收容所的狗都有一点疯狂的转变，不是吗？
It's tough for them.
这对他们来说很难。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They're like feral people, feral dogs.
他们就像野人、野狗。
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But they have big hearts-
但他们有一颗宽广的心——
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
because they're eternally grateful-
因为他们永远心存感激——
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
you give them a home.
你给他们一个家。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yeah, exactly.
是的，完全正确。
And one of the things that I was thinking is I missed walking the dog.
我想到的一件事是我怀念遛狗的日子。
I missed that activity, and so I make sure to do that every morning.
我错过了那个活动，所以我确保每天早上都这样做。
And this goes back to some of the activity things that we were talking about.
这又回到了我们正在讨论的一些活动。
I know I'm totally drifting away from ADHD-
我知道我已经完全远离多动症了-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, I see where you're coming
不，我知道你要去哪里
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
...
...
which is ironic, right?
这很讽刺，对吧？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, I see where you're going with this.
不，我明白你想做什么。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
This is a little bit different, but it's related, which is having a sense of purpose is very important for healthy brain aging.
这有点不同，但又是相关的，即有目标感对于大脑的健康老化非常重要。
There's a "Trends in Cognitive Sciences" article.
有一篇“认知科学的趋势”文章。
I could send you that.
我可以寄给你。
It's one of these things that neuroscientists don't talk about because we don't understand it.
这是神经科学家不谈论的事情之一，因为我们不理解它。
But it's hugely important as part of this whole phenomenon, what they call cognitive reserve.
但作为整个现象的一部分，它非常重要，他们称之为认知储备。
And having this dog that I'm taking care of, especially because my kid had gone to college, he's grown up, living independently, walking this dog every day, it gives him-- Obviously, I'm married, and I love my family, and I've got lots of them.
拥有我正在照顾的这只狗，特别是因为我的孩子已经上大学，他已经长大，独立生活，每天遛狗，这给了他——显然，我结婚了，我爱我的家人，我有很多家人。
I've got a lot of my students and so forth.
我有很多学生等等。
But it gave me more, and I'm exercising in a way that's kind of fun.
但它给了我更多，而且我正在以一种有趣的方式锻炼。
I'm listening to podcasts, and I'm moving, and so that's something right there.
我正在听播客，我正在移动，所以这就是事情。
It's not just the exercise, but it's the whole thing.
这不仅仅是练习，而是整个事情。
I'm not doing something that I hate.
我没有做我讨厌的事情。
So then I'm like, I hate running.
所以我就想，我讨厌跑步。
I have this inertia because my ADHD brain doesn't like to do stuff unless it's shiny and fun.
我有这种惯性，因为我的注意力缺陷多动症大脑不喜欢做一些事情，除非它是闪亮和有趣的。
And I could go into work, or I could write this book because it's fun for me.
我可以去工作，或者我可以写这本书，因为这对我来说很有趣。
So I'm like, "How can I do this?" And so I ended up shelling out for a personal trainer.
所以我想，“我该怎么做？”所以我最终花钱请了一位私人教练。
I blew my advance on a personal trainer who's great.
我把我的预付款花在了一位很棒的私人教练身上。
And I go to see her, and she tells me what to do, so I don't have to think about it, and it's fun, and it's-
我去看她，她告诉我该怎么做，所以我不必考虑它，这很有趣，而且-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You're in great shape.
你身体状况很好。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Oh, thank you.
哦，谢谢。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You're a few years older than I am, and I haven't seen you in a while, and I always have this slight fear when I run into a colleague again after a while, because there was this joke that we didn't tell professors until we became professors about the so-called tenured look.
你比我大几岁，也有一段时间没见到你了，时隔一段时间再次遇到同事，我总有种微微的恐惧，因为有一个笑话，我们成为教授后才告诉教授所谓的终身教职的样子。
When you see someone come in as a post-doc, you see them as a junior professor, and then you see them after tenure.
当你看到某人以博士后身份进来时，你会看到他们是初级教授，然后你会看到他们在获得终身教职后。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And tenure is a big milestone, right?
终身教职是一个重要的里程碑，对吗？
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It corresponds to academic freedom, et cetera.
它对应于学术自由等等。
It's a wonderful milestone.
这是一个美妙的里程碑。
It's a wonderful thing that we both have this.
我们都拥有这个真是一件美妙的事情。
But you see some people who got tenure, and you just go, "Oh, goodness.
但你看到一些人获得了终身教职，你就会说：“哦，天哪。
They look like they're age 25 years in five years."
五年后他们看起来就老了25岁了。”
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We also see this with former presidents.
我们在前总统身上也看到了这一点。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Not all of them, but a lot of them.
不是全部，但很多。
And so to run into you, well, I saw you on Alex Friedman's podcast-
所以遇到你，好吧，我在亚历克斯·弗里德曼的播客上看到了你——
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
but then to see you, I'm like, "Charan's taking great care of himself."
但当看到你时，我想，“查兰照顾得很好。”
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Oh.
哦。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It makes me happy.
这让我很高兴。
It's not a judgment.
这不是一个判断。
It makes me happy because I love my colleagues, and I want to see them live a very long time because-
这让我很高兴，因为我爱我的同事，我希望看到他们活得很长，因为-
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I don't subscribe to the idea that science progresses one funeral at a time of my favorite scientists.
我不同意科学进步一次葬礼一次我最喜欢的科学家的观点。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Okay.
好的。
Let's not attach that saying to me.
我们不要把这句话附在我身上。
It was a joke.
这是一个笑话。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, I'm saying that there are certain scientists for whom-
不，我是说对于某些科学家来说——
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
I love my fellow scientists.
我爱我的科学家同事。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I do, too.
我也是。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
If you're out there anywhere, don't hate me.
如果你在任何地方，请不要恨我。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There are certain scientists that you'd love to see live forever, and you're one of them.
您希望看到某些科学家永远活着，而您就是其中之一。
So, you said walking the dog, which presumably gets you some sunlight.
所以，你说遛狗，这可能会给你带来一些阳光。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
A lot of sunlight in Davis-
戴维斯阳光充足-
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
even in the winter.
即使在冬天。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Once the cloud cover is bright up there-
一旦那里的云层变得明亮——
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
it gets you on a regular sleep rhythm.
它可以让您保持规律的睡眠节奏。
But you said this sense of purpose.
但你说的是这种目的感。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
And I'm curious about how you now frame exercise.
我很好奇你现在如何安排锻炼。
You said you don't like working out.
你说你不喜欢锻炼。
You made an investment in your health-
您对自己的健康进行了投资 -
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
by paying a trainer, so now you train regularly.
通过付钱给教练，所以现在你可以定期训练。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And that's also an investment in your brain health.
这也是对大脑健康的投资。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And if we were to go back to this notion of sense of purpose, are you talking about a larger sense of purpose, like, okay, I want to contribute to understanding of how the brain works.
如果我们要回到目的感的概念，你谈论的是更大的目的感，比如，好吧，我想为理解大脑的工作原理做出贡献。
You're a brain explorer, after all, and therefore, the exercise and the money you put towards a trainer is linked to the ability to do that, or are you linking these nodes?
毕竟，你是一名大脑探索者，因此，你为训练师投入的锻炼和金钱与做到这一点的能力有关，或者你是否将这些节点联系起来？
Or are these kind of separate entities like, "I want to be healthier, and here's a way to be healthier, and ergo, I'll be around longer to study the brain"?
或者这些独立的实体是否像“我想要变得更健康，这是一种变得更健康的方法，因此，我会花更长时间来研究大脑”？
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
To me, and again, I'm not a social psychologist, so this is a little bit out of my wheelhouse, but to me, the sense of purpose is kind of this existential thing of I've got to take care of this dog.
对我来说，再说一遍，我不是社会心理学家，所以这有点超出我的能力范围，但对我来说，使命感是一种我必须照顾这只狗的存在主义事物。
When I look at this dog, and she's moping around in the corner, I feel bad, but I feel like it's my responsibility to do something.
当我看到这只狗在角落里闷闷不乐时，我感觉很糟糕，但我觉得我有责任做点什么。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So duty.
所以义务。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
With my students-
和我的学生们——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I see.
我明白了。
Duty.
责任。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
With my students, I was very, very fortunate to have Many people leave my lab after the pandemic, which destroyed so many careers, and many people left my lab, and I got faculty positions, and I'm so happy for them.
对于我的学生来说，我非常非常幸运，在大流行之后，很多人离开了我的实验室，这场大流行摧毁了很多人的职业生涯，很多人离开了我的实验室，而我得到了教职，我为他们感到高兴。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Speaks to your mentoring as well.
也谈到你的指导。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Well, thank you.
嗯，谢谢。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
You do well because you have good people in the lab, as you know.
正如你所知，你做得很好是因为实验室里有优秀的人。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's true.
这是真的。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
But what was interesting was I'd finished the book, and my lab was relatively empty, and I did feel purposeless.
但有趣的是，我已经读完了这本书，而我的实验室却相对空荡荡，我确实感到漫无目的。
I felt that absence of that sense of this bigger thing.
我感到缺乏对这件更大的事情的感觉。
And so part of the work is, and this was a thing that I felt doing the book promotion is, I feel a sense of purpose in explaining science to people.
所以工作的一部分是，我觉得做书籍推广就是，我有一种向人们解释科学的使命感。
I got an email this morning as I was getting on the plane from somebody who was asking me a question about memory, and I was just like, "This is so cool." After you spend years lecturing students, and some of them are sleeping in class, and you wonder, is anybody really impacted by this?
今天早上我在登机时收到一封电子邮件，有人问我一个关于记忆的问题，我当时想，“这太酷了。”当你花了数年时间给学生讲课，其中一些人在课堂上睡觉时，你想知道，有人真的受到此影响吗？
And this has been a beautiful thing.
这是一件美好的事情。
So that gives me a sense of purpose.
这给了我一种目标感。
I've really rededicated myself to research, and we're doing these huge computational models of learning, and I'm trying to get-- We're doing VR stuff, and we're going to be doing all sorts of new things in the research.
我真的重新致力于研究，我们正在做这些巨大的学习计算模型，我正在努力——我们正在做 VR 的东西，我们将在研究中做各种新的事情。
And that gives me a sense of purpose.
这给了我一种使命感。
But a lot of it to me, about the connection thing that you bring up, it's super important because often I find myself, again, because it's an ADHD thing, for all of these things that I like, there's things that you have to do that suck.
但对我来说，关于你提到的联系的事情，它非常重要，因为我经常发现自己，再次，因为这是一个多动症的事情，对于所有我喜欢的事情，有些事情你必须做得很糟糕。
And for me, that suckiness is utterly painful.
对我来说，这种恶心是非常痛苦的。
And I know there's a lot of people like, I know ADHD is over-diagnosed right now for reasons that are interesting.
我知道有很多人喜欢，我知道多动症现在被过度诊断了，原因很有趣。
And I know a lot of people, it's very kind of fashionable to say stuff, something like that maybe.
我认识很多人，说这样的话是很时尚的，也许是这样的。
I don't know.
我不知道。
People can be judgy about this stuff.
人们可能会对这些事情做出评判。
But for me, it really is painful.
但对我来说，确实很痛苦。
I've actually found that it's hard for me to work with certain people if they talk slowly.
事实上，我发现如果某些人说话很慢，我就很难和他们一起工作。
It's that tough.
就是这么难。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Interesting.
有趣。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
So I've really had to think about-- So I actually hooked up with an ADHD coach who has been phenomenal for me, and I know coaches are another controversial thing.
所以我真的不得不考虑——所以我实际上和一位多动症教练联系在一起，他对我来说是非凡的，我知道教练是另一个有争议的事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Not in my world.
不在我的世界里。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You want to learn something, you learn something from somebody who's skilled in how to improve somebody at something.
你想学习一些东西，你向那些擅长如何提高某人某事的人那里学习一些东西。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Well, I didn't know what to expect because it's like an unregulated world, so to speak, or minimally regulated.
好吧，我不知道会发生什么，因为这就像一个不受监管的世界，可以这么说，或者说监管程度最低。
But the person I found was just amazing, and the first thing she had me do was she had me write down a sheet of all my values and order them and rank them, and so on.
但我找到的那个人真是太棒了，她让我做的第一件事就是让我写下我所有的价值观，然后对它们进行排序和排名，等等。
I'm thinking, this is such a waste of time.
我在想，这真是浪费时间。
Sorry, Laurie, but I was thinking initially, "This is such a waste of time.
抱歉，劳里，但我一开始在想，“这真是浪费时间。
Why am I doing this?
我为什么要这样做？
I don't really value any.
我真的不看重任何东西。
I don't know.
我不知道。
I just do things.
我只是做事。
I don't necessarily value them or whatever." But then I started writing them down, and then later I was talking to her about some of my troubles with motivation and getting things done that I don't want to do, and I'm kind of infamous for having trouble getting things done that I don't want to do in terms of administrative tasks and so forth.
我不一定重视它们或其他什么。”但后来我开始把它们写下来，然后我和她谈论了我在动力和完成我不想做的事情方面遇到的一些麻烦，而且我因在行政任务等方面难以完成我不想做的事情而臭名昭著。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You're a real scientist.
你是一位真正的科学家。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Well, that's true, I guess.
嗯，我想确实如此。
ADHD is-
多动症是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Any scientist that likes administrative stuff, I think I'm willing to call out-
任何喜欢行政工作的科学家，我想我愿意大声疾呼——
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
God bless them
上帝保佑他们
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
as what are they doing in science?
他们在科学领域做什么？
Because that's like you're supposed to be focusing on experiments, so bravo.
因为这就像你应该专注于实验，所以太棒了。
So values, then motivation.
所以价值观，然后是动力。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So basically, it's like, then I put the two together, and I said, "I'm not giving myself credit for why I'm doing this." So this goes back to the whole, in a way, it goes back to the prefrontal cortex conversation is, what's my goal?
所以基本上，就像，然后我把两者放在一起，然后我说，“我不会因为我这样做的原因而相信自己。”所以这又回到了整体，在某种程度上，它回到了前额叶皮层的对话，即我的目标是什么？
If I'm going to see someone and have a meeting, and I don't feel like going to the meeting because I'm tired and I'm bored, or I want to just look at this YouTube video, or I want to go on social media or whatever dumb thing that I waste my time on, right?
如果我要去见某人并开会，但我不想去参加会议，因为我很累而且很无聊，或者我只想看看这个 YouTube 视频，或者我想上社交媒体或任何浪费时间的愚蠢事情，对吧？
I say to myself, "Well, why am I doing this?" And I remind myself of that motivation, and it kicks everything in gear because now I have that goal in place, because the goal just doesn't pop up for me automatically.
我对自己说：“好吧，我为什么要这样做？”我提醒自己这种动力，它让一切都运转起来，因为现在我有了这个目标，因为这个目标不会自动出现在我面前。
And so relating what I do to values is a game changer for me, but it's a conscious thing that I have to work on to remind myself of those values and connect them, and that's part of what I think people lose when they retire, for instance.
因此，将我所做的事情与价值观联系起来对我来说是一个游戏规则的改变者，但这是一件有意识的事情，我必须努力提醒自己这些价值观并将它们联系起来，这就是我认为人们在退休时失去的一部分。
I see this in people I'm close to who have retired.
我在与我关系密切的退休人士身上看到了这一点。
They feel like work is their only purpose.
他们觉得工作是他们唯一的目的。
And so afterwards, they feel purposeless, and then they're just doing things like doom scrolling or being radicalized on the internet or going into, but it's just like whatever captures their attention.
所以之后，他们感到漫无目的，然后他们只是做一些事情，比如厄运滚动或在互联网上变得激进或进入，但这就像任何吸引他们注意力的事情一样。
And I think, so a big part of that sense of purpose for me has really been to get in touch with what do I really want?
我认为，对我来说，使命感的很大一部分实际上是了解我真正想要的是什么？
And this goes back to another thing with memory.
这又回到了与记忆有关的另一件事。
Again, I know this is a total ADHD pre-association thing, but it's like, people often ask me, okay, fine.
再说一次，我知道这完全是多动症预联想的事情，但就像人们经常问我，好吧，好吧。
Give me all this stuff for brain aging, and we didn't even get into hearing aids and vision testing and-
给我所有这些关于大脑老化的东西，我们甚至没有涉及助听器和视力测试-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We'll-
我们会-
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
...
...
oral hygiene and so forth.
口腔卫生等。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, we'll talk about those three things.
是的，我们将讨论这三件事。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
But what I tell people is, I can tell you lots of strategies for remembering names, for remembering where you've been, for trying to remember to do something in the future.
但我告诉人们的是，我可以告诉你很多记住名字、记住你去过的地方、试图记住将来要做的事情的策略。
Some of the hardest memory challenges we have.
我们面临的一些最困难的记忆挑战。
But unless you do them, do those strategies, I can't help you.
但除非你这样做，采取那些策略，否则我无法帮助你。
And the problem is, and this speaks to, I really liked what you said.
问题是，这说明，我真的很喜欢你所说的。
We do have to talk about some exceptions, like retrieval-induced forgetting and some interesting things like the pretesting effect.
我们确实必须讨论一些例外，例如检索引起的遗忘和一些有趣的事情，例如预测试效应。
But your thing on study skills, I listened to that podcast, and I was like, the beautiful thing that you did with that, one of them, was that you said, "Assume that you will forget." Because if you go back to the earliest research on memory by Ebbinghaus, he tested himself, and he actually created these weird words called trigrams that weren't really words.
但是你关于学习技能的事情，我听了那个播客，我想，你用它所做的美丽的事情之一，就是你说，“假设你会忘记。”因为如果你回到艾宾浩斯最早对记忆的研究，他测试了自己，他实际上创造了这些奇怪的单词，称为三元组，它们并不是真正的单词。
He tried to memorize them, and what he found was within 20 minutes, he had forgotten about half of what he memorized.
他试着背下来，结果发现不到20分钟，他就忘记了大约一半的内容。
And I don't mean just forgotten, like he couldn't bring it to mind.
我的意思并不是说只是忘记了，就像他无法想起一样。
It took him as long to re-memorize them as it was if he had never done it, right?
他花了很长时间才重新记住它们，就好像他从来没有这样做过一样，对吧？
So sometimes we have partial memory where we can't recall it, but we get some savings and it's easier for us to learn.
所以有时我们有部分记忆，我们无法回忆起来，但我们可以节省一些，并且更容易学习。
He didn't even have that for a lot of the stuff.
他甚至连很多东西都没有。
So then he waited 24 hours, and he had lost two-thirds of what he had memorized, right?
那么他等了24个小时，他背的东西已经丢掉了三分之二吧？
So translate this into the real world.
因此，请将其转化为现实世界。
There are some things that are caveats that we do better in the real world, I would say, at the big things, the gist of what we encounter.
有些事情是我们在现实世界中做得更好的警告，我想说的是，在大事情上，我们遇到的要点。
But the details, we lose most of them.
但细节，我们失去了大部分。
Most of the details of your life will be gone.
你生活中的大部分细节都会消失。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
And I would argue this is even true for people with highly superior autobiographical memory.
我认为对于具有高度优越自传体记忆的人来说也是如此。
We don't know for sure, but I can tell you more about that.
我们不确定，但我可以告诉你更多相关信息。
This is true for everyone who's been studied, as far as I know.
据我所知，这对于所有接受过研究的人来说都是如此。
And so if that's the case, the question is not, why am I so forgetful?
如果是这样的话，问题就不是我为什么这么健忘？
It's why do we remember in the first place?
这就是为什么我们首先记得？
It's why that titled it for the book.
这就是这本书的标题的原因。
And the question is, what do you want to remember?
问题是，你想记住什么？
What are the memories that you want to take with you?
您想带走哪些回忆？
Whether it's memorizing things for a class, like in study skills, or whether it's your kid's birthday party, which I talk about in chapter one.
无论是记忆课程的内容，例如学习技巧，还是我在第一章中讨论的孩子的生日聚会。
It's about intention is what I say.
我所说的是关于意图。
It's the difference between attention, which can be grabbed by anything, versus intention, which is saying, "This is what I want to take with me," right?
这是注意力和意图之间的区别，注意力可以被任何东西抓住，意图是说“这就是我想随身携带的东西”，对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Let's hover on that.
让我们把鼠标悬停在上面。
Attention versus intention.
注意力与意图。
We hear these words all the time.
我们经常听到这些话。
Attention is the directing of one's perception to particular sensations or things in one environment-
注意力是将一个人的知觉引导到一种环境中的特定感觉或事物上——
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
is the way loosely defined.
是松散定义的方式。
Accurate but not exhaustive.
准确但不详尽。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Intention is understanding why we're having a cognitive sense, maybe a cognitive emotional sense, of why I am directing my perception to particular things.
意图是理解为什么我们有认知感，也许是认知情感感，为什么我将我的感知引导到特定的事物。
Is that right?
是这样吗？
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yes.
是的。
It is directing your attention based on some reason that's an internal goal, right?
它是基于某种内部目标的原因来引导你的注意力，对吗？
And that's where the prefrontal cortex really comes in.
这就是前额皮质真正发挥作用的地方。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
So it's very easy, in some ways, to pay attention to me if I'm gesticulating, and I'm talking very loudly because it's grabbing your attention constantly.
因此，从某些方面来说，如果我在打手势，而且我说话声音很大，那么你很容易注意到我，因为这会不断吸引你的注意力。
Let's face it, I know lots of people in my life who hate this because I'm so loud and gesticulatory.
让我们面对现实吧，我认识生活中的很多人讨厌这个，因为我声音太大，手势太多。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You're not loud.
你声音不大。
Who are these people giving you this feedback?
这些人给你提供反馈的人是谁？
Send me their names and numbers.
把他们的名字和电话号码发给我。
I have words for them.
我有话要对他们说。
And listen, I would say, given that you run a world-class laboratory, you're successful in your family life, you're successfully raising your second daughter, you've written a spectacular book, you're going on podcasts, you're educating the public, I would say you're doing great.
听着，我想说，考虑到你经营着一个世界级的实验室，你的家庭生活很成功，你成功地抚养了你的第二个女儿，你写了一本精彩的书，你正在播客，你正在教育公众，我会说你做得很好。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Thank you.
谢谢你。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So keep going.
所以继续吧。
And whoever these people are, we'll have words with them.
无论这些人是谁，我们都会与他们交谈。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
I need Huberman's words of encouragement on my phone that I could just open up.
我需要休伯曼在我的手机上鼓励我，我可以打开它。
Plus, you're-
另外，你是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, I don't want to take us off track, but I spend a lot of time each morning, I first do a non-sleep deep rest or some sort of meditation.
好吧，我不想让我们偏离正轨，但我每天早上都会花很多时间，我首先进行非睡眠深度休息或某种冥想。
Rick Rubin taught me this, to get into intention, and there are other people who have come into my life recently.
里克·鲁宾（Rick Rubin）教我这一点，进入意图，最近还有其他人进入我的生活。
This notion of intention-
这种意图的概念——
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
the reason I said let's hover on it, is so important.
我说让我们把鼠标悬停在上面的原因非常重要。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because we are in a world where things will grab our attention.
因为我们生活在一个事物会吸引我们注意力的世界。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Especially on social media.
尤其是在社交媒体上。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's basically a war for attention.
这基本上是一场注意力之战。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I don't think it's an attention economy anymore.
我认为这不再是注意力经济了。
Herb Simon's brilliant, I'm not trying to take anything away from that, but it's a war for attention, and one of the ways that you rob your competitors is by taking their attention.
赫伯·西蒙（Herb Simon）很聪明，我并不是想从中夺走任何东西，但这是一场注意力之战，而你抢夺竞争对手的方法之一就是吸引他们的注意力。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I used to joke when I was in a very competitive area as a post-doc, I was competing against a big lab at Harvard, and this and that, and we're trying to find genetic markers for retinal neurons, et cetera.
当我作为一名博士后处于竞争非常激烈的领域时，我曾经开玩笑过，我正在与哈佛大学的一个大实验室竞争，等等，我们正在努力寻找视网膜神经元的遗传标记，等等。
And I said, "If I could just get them excited about 'The Wire.'" Remember that show, "The Wire?"
我说，“如果我能让他们对《火线》感到兴奋就好了。”还记得那个节目《火线》吗？
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because it'll suck 15 hours of those post-docs' time.
因为这会占用博士后 15 个小时的时间。
So I thought it'd be really diabolical.
所以我觉得这真的很邪恶。
I didn't do it, but telling people, like, "You have to see 'The Wire,'" this and that.
我没有这样做，而是告诉人们，“你必须看看《火线》”，这样那样。
Because you get someone on a really good Netflix program-
因为你会在一个非常好的 Netflix 节目中找到一个人 -
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and if they're a competitor, you just got a competitive advantage.
如果他们是竞争对手，你就获得了竞争优势。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But this is being done all day long, right?
但这是一整天都在做的事情，对吗？
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In any case, attention is our ability for our perception to be drawn to whatever is moving most, loudest, most salient.
无论如何，注意力是我们的感知被吸引到最移动、最响亮、最显着的事物的能力。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Intention is different.
意图不同。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Yeah, and this, by the way, isn't a technical term.
是的，顺便说一句，这不是一个技术术语。
This is just I like it-
这就是我喜欢的——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sure
当然可以
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
...
...
because it rhymes, and a friend of mine came up with it.
因为它押韵，是我的一个朋友想出来的。
But yes, intention is your ability to say, "This is what's important to me right now, and that's why I need to pay attention to it."
但是，是的，意图是你说“这对我现在很重要，这就是为什么我需要关注它”的能力。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hence the values list.
因此就有了值列表。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Hence the values list.
因此就有了值列表。
Because if I don't keep that in mind...
因为如果我不牢记这一点...
So we tend to think of control as being just like willpower, or like you want to do the right thing, or whatever.
所以我们倾向于认为控制就像意志力一样，或者就像你想做正确的事情，或者其他什么。
It's not.
它不是。
There's so many parts of it, really, but a big part of it is motivation.
实际上，其中有很多部分，但其中很大一部分是动机。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
And motivation is not a trivial thing.
动机并不是一件小事。
It's not simply wanting to do the right thing, but being able to keep that value in mind and retrieve that value, because everything has a value associated with, right?
它不仅仅是想做正确的事情，而是能够牢记该价值并检索该价值，因为一切都有与之相关的价值，对吗？
And sometimes things that are, I'm thirsty, and there's water in front of me, that has a big value, and that should grab my attention.
有时，我口渴了，而我面前有水，它具有很大的价值，应该引起我的注意。
So it's not that having your attention shift, you want it to be flexible.
所以并不是要转移你的注意力，而是你希望它具有灵活性。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
But you want to keep these higher order goals in mind, and so it's this balance between stability and flexibility.
但您需要牢记这些更高阶的目标，因此需要保持稳定性和灵活性之间的平衡。
Now, let's get to your specific example of technology, right?
现在，让我们来看看您的具体技术示例，对吧？
So ever since I got a phone, that is a smartphone, my first iPhone, which I-
所以自从我有了一部手机，那是一部智能手机，我的第一部 iPhone，我-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
When was that?
那是什么时候？
Mine was 2010.
我的是2010年的。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Mine was, oh, you did better than me, I think.
我的想法是，哦，我想你比我做得更好。
Maybe it was around the same.
也许是差不多的。
It was iPhone 3, I think was my first.
那是 iPhone 3，我想这是我的第一部手机。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We'll have to look up when those-
当那些——
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
I think I had the iPhone 3, which was whenever that came out.
我想我有 iPhone 3，每当 iPhone 3 发布的时候。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
So until then, I would check email when I was at a computer.
所以在那之前，我会在电脑前检查电子邮件。
When I'm not, I don't think about it.
当我不在的时候，我不会去想它。
Now It's always there, and you get alerts on your phone, right?
现在它总是在那里，并且您会在手机上收到警报，对吧？
So let's play this out now.
现在让我们来玩一下。
We're having this great conversation.
我们正在进行这次很棒的谈话。
Let's say we leave, we talk about skateboarding and punk rock, and we're like, "Yes, why didn't we talk about this on the podcast?" We're having a great conversation.
假设我们离开，我们谈论滑板和朋克摇滚，我们就像，“是的，为什么我们不在播客上谈论这个？”我们聊得很开心。
But now let's say I didn't put my phone on focus mode, and I start getting all these little beeps on my phone.
但现在假设我没有将手机置于对焦模式，然后我的手机上开始发出所有这些小嘟嘟声。
I know people.
我认识人。
I played in a band with somebody who had ADHD, and anytime we were in a conversation, he would just check his text messages.
我和一个患有多动症的人在一个乐队里演奏，每当我们谈话时，他都会检查他的短信。
Sometimes he would text in front of me.
有时他会在我面前发短信。
So what happens is every time you do that, you're essentially shifting your task.
所以每次你这样做的时候，你实际上都是在转移你的任务。
Your mindset changes.
你的心态会改变。
Your intention is somewhat changed by this new task.
这项新任务稍微改变了你的意图。
So now I've shifted, and there's a cost associated with that.
所以现在我已经转变了，并且有与之相关的成本。
In fact, actually, people who study this, there's four or five different costs that go on.
事实上，实际上，研究这个的人会发现有四到五种不同的成本。
It makes you slower to do the new thing.
它会让你做新事情的速度变慢。
Now I go back to the conversation.
现在我回到谈话。
Well, now I have another cost associated with that.
好吧，现在我还有另一个与之相关的成本。
And so I'm not there where you are in this moment.
所以此刻我不在你身边。
I'm several seconds behind you, and I'm still catching up while you're talking, and that requires even more control to get caught up and get back up to speed.
我落后你几秒钟，而当你说话时我仍在追赶，这需要更多的控制才能赶上并恢复速度。
So I'm straining my mental resources, I'm straining my cognitive control by shifting back and forth.
所以我正在紧张我的精神资源，我正在通过来回转移来紧张我的认知控制。
But here's an even worse part of it.
但这是更糟糕的部分。
So a memory, we haven't even talked about this, but it's like a lot of our forgetting happens because we have these blurry memories.
所以记忆，我们甚至没有谈论过这个，但是我们的很多遗忘就像是因为我们有这些模糊的记忆而发生的。
They're not distinctive.
他们没有特色。
You don't get a population of neurons that shouts out loud, "Hey, that's this conversation I had with Andy." It's just this blurry sense of, I talked to someone on a podcast, let's say.
你不会看到一群神经元大声喊道：“嘿，这就是我和安迪的对话。”比方说，我在播客上与某人交谈过，这只是一种模糊的感觉。
Not saying that this will happen now, because it won't.
并不是说现在就会发生这种情况，因为它不会。
So I have this blurry memory.
所以我才有了这段模糊的记忆。
Well, why does that happen?
那么，为什么会发生这种情况呢？
Well, part of it is you have to catch the distinctive moments of these events, and you have to associate them together into this cohesive narrative.
嗯，其中一部分是你必须抓住这些事件的独特时刻，并且你必须将它们联系在一起形成这个有凝聚力的叙述。
One of the things we've found in our research, and other people have found this, is when, let's say if you're watching a movie and somebody changes the topic of conversation or a character comes in, something that shifts your attentional focus and shifts your understanding of what's going on, you see this big peak in activation in the hippocampus.
我们在研究中发现的一件事，其他人也发现了这一点，那就是，当你在看电影时，有人改变了谈话的话题，或者一个角色进来了，某些东西改变了你的注意力焦点，改变了你对正在发生的事情的理解，你会看到海马体的激活出现一个高峰。
And what that seems to be related to is encoding a memory for what happened up to that point.
这似乎与对当时发生的事情的记忆进行编码有关。
And so we call that an event boundary.
所以我们称之为事件边界。
And so once you have an event boundary, it turns out you go onto the next event, and you have trouble remembering the stuff that happened right before the event boundary.
因此，一旦有了事件边界，你就会进入下一个事件，并且很难记住事件边界之前发生的事情。
It's why people end up in the kitchen and they're like, "Well, what was my reason for coming here?" And it's because they passed through three different rooms, and their sense of where they were was changing.
这就是为什么人们最终来到厨房，他们会想，“好吧，我来这里的原因是什么？”这是因为他们穿过了三个不同的房间，他们对自己所在位置的感觉正在发生变化。
Their mental context updated to the point where now they have to work to figure it out.
他们的心理环境已经更新到现在他们必须努力弄清楚的程度。
So this is what's happening when we are shifting between different tasks.
这就是我们在不同任务之间切换时发生的情况。
I'm texting and I'm emailing, and then I'm talking to you.
我正在发短信，正在发电子邮件，然后我正在与您交谈。
Or as you've probably seen in going to conferences, people, scientists who know better, are sitting typing emails while someone is giving...
或者，正如您在参加会议时可能看到的那样，了解更多的人们、科学家正在坐着打字电子邮件，而有人正在给予……
I've done this because I'm attentionally impaired, or I couldn't...
我这样做是因为我注意力受损，或者我无法...
Actually, ADHD is a cognitive control issue, I think, but nonetheless, it's like, I do this.
实际上，我认为多动症是一个认知控制问题，但尽管如此，我还是这么做了。
So it's like, I get it, but it's like you are now creating these fragments of memories where it's not I have a cohesive conversation.
所以就像，我明白了，但就像你现在正在创造这些记忆碎片，而我却没有进行有凝聚力的对话。
I have a little bit.
我有一点点。
I got a little bit more.
我还有一点点。
And those fragments of memory don't play together well in memory.
而且这些记忆碎片在记忆中并不能很好地结合在一起。
They can compete with each other, and that competition is a big part of forgetting.
他们可以互相竞争，而竞争是遗忘的重要组成部分。
And so that's why it's super important to just do one thing and then do another.
这就是为什么先做一件事然后再做另一件事非常重要。
If you want to do social media, fine, do it.
如果你想做社交媒体，好吧，那就去做吧。
Then do whatever it is you are supposed to do for work.
然后做你应该做的工作。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
But it's the shifting that really kills you because it saps your cognitive control.
但真正致命的是这种转变，因为它削弱了你的认知控制。
It actually creates these fragmented memories.
它实际上创造了这些碎片化的记忆。
It also actually increases stress levels.
它实际上还会增加压力水平。
So there's all sorts of things.
所以有各种各样的事情。
I know there's a lot of tech bros who are just like, "Oh, no, I multitask.
我知道有很多技术兄弟会说，“哦，不，我要同时处理多项任务。
I'm great at it." You're not.
我很擅长。”你不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, I'm from the Bay Area and spend a lot of time with those folks, men and women in tech.
嗯，我来自湾区，花了很多时间和那些科技界的人在一起。
I think that the best ones, the truly exceptional ones, are very good at dropping into a trench of attention.
我认为最好的、真正杰出的人非常善于引起人们的注意。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They're very disciplined with their phone use.
他们对手机的使用非常有纪律。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And the ones that are doing a lot of task switching often don't have complete lives.
而那些进行大量任务切换的人通常没有完整的生命。
They really don't.
他们真的不知道。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Oh.
哦。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They're not taking care of their health also, and they are sort of under the sense-
他们也没有照顾自己的健康，而且他们有点感觉-
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that they're working all the time when they're not.
他们在不工作的时候一直在工作。
As a graduate student, I didn't have a smartphone.
作为一名研究生，我没有智能手机。
I did something recently.
我最近做了一件事。
I tweeted about this.
我在推特上谈到了这一点。
You may have commented about it, I don't know, but this has helped me a lot.
我不知道你可能对此发表了评论，但这对我帮助很大。
I took an old phone.
我拿了一部旧手机。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Oh.
哦。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I put-
我把-
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Oh, you told me, yeah
哦，你告诉过我，是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
social media on the old phone.
旧手机上的社交媒体。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And only social media, so it doesn't operate as a phone.
而且仅限社交媒体，因此它不能作为手机使用。
I can AirDrop things to it.
我可以将东西空投到它上面。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So I use that for looking at social media and for posting.
所以我用它来查看社交媒体和发帖。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That phone is in a box.
那个电话在一个盒子里。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then my main phone is for texting and other forms of communication.
然后我的主要电话用于发短信和其他形式的通信。
So I still have that distraction around me, but social media is now a dedicated thing that I spend a specific amount of time, and I have a timer on that phone.
所以我周围仍然有这种干扰，但社交媒体现在是我花费特定时间的专用事物，而且我的手机上有一个计时器。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So I allocate myself a certain amount of time each day.
所以我每天都会给自己分配一定的时间。
So for every moment, I start that timer.
因此，我每时每刻都会启动计时器。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Once it hits zero, that's it.
一旦它达到零，就这样了。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I'm starting to shorten that amount of time.
我开始缩短这个时间。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Nice.
不错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The impact on productivity in terms of writing, in terms of researching, in terms of just dropping into conversation-
对写作、研究、交谈方面生产力的影响——
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
has been enormous with that simple switch.
这个简单的开关就带来了巨大的好处。
And I just find it easier to just segregate-
我只是发现隔离更容易-
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
social media from the phone.
来自手机的社交媒体。
Part of the problem is that the phone is like a walking office.
部分问题在于手机就像一个行走的办公室。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's a phone.
这是一部电话。
It's a computer.
这是一台电脑。
It's a this.
就是一个这个
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's just too much access.
这只是太多的访问。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Well, and here's the thing, and this really gets back to this idea of engineering your environment, and because so much of our lives we're out of control, even though we feel like we're in control.
嗯，事情是这样的，这实际上又回到了设计环境的想法，因为我们生活中的大部分时间都处于失控状态，尽管我们感觉自己处于控制之中。
And it's really, if I have a higher goal, sometimes you have to do exactly what you did, which is hack your environment to enable you to regain control.
事实上，如果我有更高的目标，有时你必须完全按照你所做的去做，那就是破解你的环境，让你重新获得控制权。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
So what I mean by this is it's like Even though I might not check my phone, I might have alerts off, if I have a habit, I'm thinking about it, and every time I think about it, that urge pops into mind, I'm getting a little distracted.
所以我的意思是，即使我可能不检查手机，我可能会关闭警报，如果我有一个习惯，我就会思考它，每次我思考它时，那种冲动都会浮现在脑海中，我会有点分心。
I'm losing a little bit of executive control.
我正在失去一点执行控制权。
So you don't even have to do it, right?
所以你甚至不必这样做，对吧？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
You can just think about it.
你可以想想。
So, and multitasking is just one thing.
所以，多任务处理只是一回事。
There's other things.
还有其他事情。
One thing is, I talk about in the book, is taking pictures.
一件事是，我在书中谈到，就是拍照。
So you've probably been to concerts, I know I have, where it's like people are just filming the whole things on their phone.
所以你可能去过音乐会，我知道我去过，那里的人们就像用手机拍摄整个事情一样。
Or now you see the rise of Instagram walls, where you go into places and there's a wall that exists so people can post to Instagram.
或者现在你会看到 Instagram 墙的兴起，你走进一些地方，就会有一堵墙的存在，这样人们就可以在 Instagram 上发帖。
Nothing wrong with this, but most, not all of the research, interestingly, and I can get into why, shows that taking pictures actually impoverishes people's memory.
这并没有什么问题，但有趣的是，大多数（不是全部）研究表明拍照实际上会削弱人们的记忆力，而且我可以解释其中的原因。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Really?
真的吗？
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
People-
人-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What about looking at pictures of, I think it was Larry Squire, when I was down at San Diego, that said that hanging a few pictures in your office of things that are really pleasant memories can really enhance your work environment because you look at them, you go, "Oh, I remember that."
看看照片怎么样，我想是拉里·斯奎尔（Larry Squire），当我在圣地亚哥的时候，他说，在你的办公室里挂几张照片，这些照片都是真正令人愉快的回忆，可以真正改善你的工作环境，因为你看着它们，你就会说，“哦，我记得那个。”
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because of all the context it brings about.
因为它带来的所有背景。
But you're saying that the act of taking pictures depletes our memory for that experience.
但你是说拍照的行为会耗尽我们对那段经历的记忆。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Let me be more specific about this, right?
让我更具体地说一下，对吧？
So let's say I'm mindlessly taking pictures.
所以假设我在无意识地拍照。
So I go in, I'm seeing the Grand Canyon, I'm just like, .
所以我进去了，我看到了大峡谷，我就像，。
A lot of people intuitively, on average, will say that they will remember it better because they took pictures.
平均而言，很多人直觉上会说他们会更好地记住它，因为他们拍了照片。
But what often happens is they're not really focusing on the distinctive elements of their experience.
但经常发生的情况是，他们并没有真正关注自己体验中的独特元素。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
They're just grabbing as much stuff as they can, right?
他们只是尽可能多地抢夺东西，对吗？
Let's take the concert as another example.
我们再以演唱会为例。
If you are filming the concert and you're just trying to grab what's being sung, you will have a recording of the concert.
如果您正在拍摄音乐会并且只是想抓住正在演唱的内容，那么您将获得音乐会的录音。
But what's the memory you want to have?
但你想要拥有什么记忆呢？
Do you want to have a memory of the song that you already can stream anytime?
您想记住您已经可以随时播放的歌曲吗？
Or do you want the memory of how you felt, the friends you were with, the connection that you had with the artist because you were there?
或者你想要回忆你的感受、和你在一起的朋友、因为你在那里而与艺术家建立的联系？
And I know this sounds real hippy-dippy, but it's real-
我知道这听起来很嬉皮士，但这是真的-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, it is real
不，这是真的
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
...
...
in the sense that this is what you want to remember.
从某种意义上说，这就是你想要记住的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
I think, at least I don't want to lecture people.
我想，至少我不想教训人。
If they want to remember taking pictures of things, that's fine.
如果他们想记住给东西拍照，那很好。
I'm sure everybody remembers taking pictures at these things.
相信每个人都记得在这些地方拍照。
But what did you take a picture of?
但你拍的照片是什么？
And so you can use the phone, and this is where the studies show good effects, is if I mindfully use the phone and I say like, "There's something here that will be a good cue, that will remind me later of this great conversation," I focus the camera on that, I take a picture mindfully.
所以你可以使用手机，这就是研究显示出良好效果的地方，如果我用心使用手机，我会说，“这里有一些东西将是一个很好的提示，它会让我稍后想起这次伟大的谈话，”我将相机聚焦在那个地方，我用心拍照。
I use the camera not as a way of spreading my attention and just grabbing everything in this shotgun approach, but rather use it to find what's distinctive and what's important and actually focus me on it.
我使用相机并不是为了分散我的注意力，只是用这种霰弹枪的方式抓住一切，而是用它来发现什么是独特的，什么是重要的，并真正让我集中注意力。
That's a really good thing.
这真是一件好事。
So what I try to do is selectively document, not over-document.
所以我尝试做的是有选择地记录，而不是过度记录。
I'll take a picture of people laughing or people eating.
我会拍一张人们大笑或人们吃饭的照片。
I like to go to conferences now.
我现在喜欢参加会议。
John Lisman used to do this, the late John Lisman, and so he passed away, and so now I try to do this.
已故的约翰·利斯曼（John Lisman）曾经这样做过，所以他去世了，所以现在我尝试这样做。
I think more about these things.
我对这些事情想得更多。
And so I try to take pictures of people randomly.
所以我尝试随机地给人们拍照。
They're drinking a beer, and then they spit it out laughing or something like that.
他们喝了一杯啤酒，然后大笑着吐出来，或者做类似的事情。
And these are not things that are landmarks.
这些都不是地标。
They're not things that are tourist stuff, but they are great retrieval cues.
它们不是旅游用品，但它们是很好的检索线索。
And so what happens is, the next part of it is seeing the picture.
所以接下来发生的事情就是看到图片。
Well, what do you do when you see the picture, right?
好吧，当你看到这张照片时，你会做什么，对吧？
Do you scroll right?
你向右滚动吗？
Or do you use it as a cue to effectively test yourself to recall what happened during that event and integrate it?
或者你是否用它作为一个提示来有效地测试自己回忆起该事件期间发生的事情并将其整合？
Now, what's interesting is that act of recollecting the event in itself will change the memory, and it can make it more accessible, but it can also make it a little bit more abstract and story-like.
现在，有趣的是，回忆事件本身的行为会改变记忆，它可以使它更容易理解，但它也可以使它变得更加抽象和故事化。
And so there is an interesting trade-off where you have these things where you have these memories, and you could even document it.
因此，有一个有趣的权衡，你拥有这些东西，你有这些记忆，你甚至可以记录它。
The more you retrieve it, the more accessible it will be, but sometimes it'll be less immersive and more like a story that you've told 100 times.
你检索得越多，就越容易理解，但有时它的沉浸感会降低，而更像是一个你已经讲过 100 遍的故事。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So it sounds like if we go on a vacation or to a show or something, that taking a photo, as long as it's intentional, of something specific, the key is to look at it later, not just post it, but to look at it later, and to spend a few moments or more drawing to mind some of the emotional and cognitive experiences around that memory.
所以听起来，如果我们去度假或去看演出或其他什么东西，只要是有意为特定的事物拍照，关键是稍后再看，不仅仅是发布它，而是稍后再看，并花一些时间或更长时间在脑海中回忆起围绕该记忆的一些情感和认知体验。
That, however, changes the memory, right?
然而，这会改变记忆，对吗？
Anytime we create a story, we're changing the memory.
每当我们创造一个故事时，我们都在改变记忆。
But perhaps, provided it was a good experience, that's better than to not access the photo at all.
但也许，如果这是一次良好的体验，那也许比根本不访问照片要好。
But I'm struck by, as you are, the number of people who are taking photos at a concert.
但和你一样，我对在音乐会上拍照的人数感到震惊。
A friend of mine who's a very successful photographer, who shoots a lot of photos of musicians, thinks this is the craziest thing.
我的一个朋友是一位非常成功的摄影师，拍摄了很多音乐家的照片，他认为这是最疯狂的事情。
As if any one of those photos is going to be meaningful, right?
好像这些照片中的任何一张都会有意义，对吧？
That they're outside of the experience of the concert-
他们不在音乐会的体验之外-
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
which is exactly what you're describing.
这正是你所描述的。
Maybe you just have a memory of taking a lot of photos.
也许您只是拍了很多照片的记忆。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
That's exactly what happens.
这正是发生的情况。
People will remember something, but their feeling, it's not like the friends they were with and what they talked about.
人们会记住一些事情，但他们的感觉，不像他们在一起的朋友和他们谈论的内容。
I use this example in an interview, so apologies if people have already seen this, but it's like I got to see The Descendants, and I'm guessing since you skateboarded, you probably had heard of The Descendants.
我在采访中使用了这个例子，所以如果人们已经看过这个，我很抱歉，但这就像我必须看到《后裔》一样，我猜自从你玩滑板以来，你可能听说过《后裔》。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The band, The Descendants?
乐队，后裔？
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
The band, The Descendants.
乐队，后裔。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Milo and The Descendants.
米洛与后裔.
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
So I grew up listening to them in high school, but I never got to see them because all the great bands I got into broke up right before, Black Flag and the Minutemen and so forth.
所以我在高中时是听他们的歌长大的，但我从未见过他们，因为我加入的所有伟大乐队都在之前解散了，比如 Black Flag 和 Minutemen 等等。
And so when they reunited, I had an opportunity to see them in a club in Sacramento.
因此，当他们重聚时，我有机会在萨克拉门托的一家具乐部见到他们。
And so I saw them for the first time, and I wasn't one of the Kids taking photos, I was actually watching.
所以我第一次看到他们，我不是拍照的孩子之一，我实际上是在观看。
But then there was a moment where Bill Stevenson, the drummer, who's a super intense guy and really one of the creative forces behind the band, he gets up, and he starts walking towards the crowd, and Milo's like, "Sit down, go back behind the drums." And he's like, "No, I want to say something." And I was like, I got to take a picture of this because this is going to be like he's really connecting with us.
但后来有一个时刻，鼓手比尔·史蒂文森（Bill Stevenson）是一个超级热情的人，也是乐队背后的创造力之一，他站起来，开始走向人群，米洛说，“坐下，回到鼓后面。”他说：“不，我想说点什么。”我当时想，我必须拍一张照片，因为这就像他真正与我们联系一样。
And he talked about how cool it was to just be able to have this moment where he's now at this age able to appreciate this connection that he has with the audience that he couldn't appreciate before when he was younger.
他谈到，能够拥有这一刻是多么酷，他现在在这个年纪，能够欣赏他与观众之间的这种联系，这是他年轻时无法欣赏的。
And I was like, I'm taking a picture of this because that's what I want to remember.
我当时想，我拍这张照片是因为那是我想记住的。
You won't remember everything, but if I look at that photo, technically I haven't looked at that photo again, but just taking the picture of it-
你不会记住一切，但如果我看那张照片，从技术上讲，我没有再看那张照片，只是拍了它的照片-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
...
...
forced me to really think about that, and that's the biggest takeaway I have.
迫使我认真思考这一点，这是我最大的收获。
A lot of the songs they played, they did a really good job on.
他们演奏的很多歌曲都表现得非常好。
But what I really took away from that was this connection that I had really wanted when I was a kid.
但我真正从中得到的是我小时候真正想要的这种联系。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
And re-experiencing that feeling of being a kid and hearing these songs when they were fresh and new for me.
重新体验小时候的感觉，听到这些对我来说新鲜的歌曲。
And so I know I'm sounding like kind of a hippie or something.
所以我知道我听起来有点像嬉皮士之类的。
That's not my style.
那不是我的风格。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Not a hippie.
不是嬉皮士。
You sound like a punk rocker.
你听起来像个朋克摇滚歌手。
Let's not confuse the two.
我们不要混淆两者。
That's good.
那挺好的。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yeah, exactly.
是的，完全正确。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I like it.
我喜欢它。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
I got digressing all over the place now.
我现在到处都离题了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No. I have a question that I'm hoping binds some of this together, related to taking photos and memories.
不。我有一个问题，希望能将其中一些联系起来，与拍照和回忆有关。
I keep many photos.
我保留了很多照片。
I like printed photos.
我喜欢打印的照片。
I have these in a drawer.
我把这些放在抽屉里。
They mean very much to me.
他们对我来说意义重大。
Some of them are in the studio.
其中一些在工作室里。
But I keep most of them in a drawer at home.
但我把大部分都放在家里的抽屉里。
Polaroids are an interesting example, I think, of what you're describing.
我认为，宝丽来照片是您所描述的一个有趣的例子。
The act of taking a Polaroid is more than just clicking or pressing with your thumb on a camera.
拍摄宝丽来照片的行为不仅仅是用拇指在相机上单击或按下。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There's a waiting process.
有一个等待的过程。
You actually get to see the photo emerge over time.
你实际上可以看到照片随着时间的推移而出现。
I would bet, even though I haven't run the study, I would bet that people keep Polaroids and look at Polaroids more than they keep other photos.
我敢打赌，即使我没有进行这项研究，我敢打赌，人们保留宝丽来照片并观看宝丽来照片的次数比保留其他照片的次数要多。
Which, if you think about it, if it's true, is counterlogic because usually people want to do another photo because they don't like the way they looked in the previous photo.
如果你仔细想想，如果这是真的，这是反逻辑的，因为通常人们想要再拍一张照片，因为他们不喜欢他们在上一张照片中的样子。
With Polaroids, you can't do too many of those.
有了宝丽来相机，你就不能做太多这样的事情。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
It's kind of one and done, maybe two and done.
有点像一件事就完成了，也许两件事就完成了。
But I feel like the act of taking the Polaroid, waiting for the photo to emerge, kind of stamps it in your memory of the experience itself, and the act of taking the photo is more involved.
但我觉得拿着宝丽来等待照片出现的行为，有点像在你对经历本身的记忆中留下印记，而且拍照的行为更加复杂。
It's more of a process than just a click.
这不仅仅是一个点击，而是一个过程。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That then you see the photo later.
然后你稍后就会看到照片。
Now, of course, with digital photography, you see it, but you can take 100.
当然，现在有了数码摄影，你就可以看到它，但你可以拍 100 张。
You can take-
你可以采取——
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
200 photos like that.
这样的照片有200张。
If we were to export this theme of limiting our task switching as a way to enhance our memory, setting up our environment in a way where we put our phone away, perhaps, and we also are focused on intention, why we are in something.
如果我们将限制任务切换这一主题导出为增强记忆力的一种方式，以一种放下手机的方式设置我们的环境，也许，我们也专注于意图，即为什么我们处于某件事中。
Do you think that there's something positively reinforcing about getting into a trench, as I call it?
你认为进入我所说的战壕有什么积极的强化作用吗？
Because I find that conversations like this, one of the reasons I do this podcast, the solo episodes and these interviews, is that they provide something that my life prior to it did not provide, which was depth.
因为我发现像这样的对话，我做这个播客、独奏节目和这些采访的原因之一是它们提供了我之前的生活没有提供的东西，那就是深度。
We're just here.
我们就在这里。
There's no phones here, and if there are, they're off.
这里没有电话，即使有，也已关机。
Right?
正确的？
And I feel like any time we go into these trenches, could be a video game, could be an interaction with a loved one of various kinds, but when we go into these tunnels of attention, there's something that's so deeply satisfying about it, especially to those who have attention deficit issues, that it feels like something real happened, and the rest is just noise.
我觉得任何时候我们进入这些战壕，可能是一场电子游戏，可能是与各种类型的亲人的互动，但是当我们进入这些注意力的隧道时，有一些东西是如此令人深深满足，特别是对于那些有注意力缺陷问题的人来说，感觉就像真实发生了一些事情，其余的只是噪音。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is there any relationship of the focus system to release of dopamine?
聚焦系统与多巴胺的释放有关系吗？
I know release of dopamine can drive focus, but is the reverse also true?
我知道多巴胺的释放可以提高注意力，但反之亦然吗？
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
That if you're in a state of focus, do you enhance the release of dopamine?
如果你处于专注状态，你会增强多巴胺的释放吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Correct.
正确。
That's the question.
这就是问题所在。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Well, I don't know.
嗯，我不知道。
I wish I could give you an answer and say I don't know.
我希望我能给你一个答案并说我不知道。
And it would be really hard to disentangle the chicken and the egg, right?
鸡和蛋真的很难解开，对吧？
Because if you're measuring dopamine activity, you'd have to...
因为如果你要测量多巴胺活动，你必须......
Well, okay, so here's what I can say, is that I think that we often think of let's say an emotion, right, or any other mental state, and we think of it like it just happens.
好吧，我可以说的是，我认为我们经常想到一种情绪，对吧，或者任何其他精神状态，我们认为它就像它刚刚发生一样。
But in fact, there's a timescale to these things, right?
但事实上，这些事情都有一个时间表，对吧？
So it's like there is a basic response that you get when somebody points a gun at you, but then there's an interpretation that you have that can take that threat response and make it into something more, and then you're really jacking up your noradrenergic activity, right?
所以这就好像当有人用枪指着你时你会得到一个基本的反应，但是你有一种解释可以将这种威胁反应变成更多的东西，然后你真的在提高你的去甲肾上腺素能活动，对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
You're catastrophizing.
你这是灾难性的。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Well, in that case, it could be a catastrophe.
好吧，在这种情况下，这可能是一场灾难。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But if you survive, you averted the catastrophe.
但如果你活了下来，你就避免了灾难。
The question is, does the potential catastrophe live within you, or does it die within you?
问题是，潜在的灾难是存在于你的内心，还是在你的内心消亡？
You only need it to live within you sufficiently enough that you avoid the threat in the future.
你只需要它足够充分地生活在你的内心，这样你就可以避免未来的威胁。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
But that's-
但那是——
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
the double-edged sword of noradrenergic systems, is that they capture lots of memory, and they open up thoughts about what could have gone wrong.
去甲肾上腺素能系统的双刃剑是，它们会捕获大量记忆，并引发人们对可能出现问题的想法。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But if it didn't go wrong, it didn't go wrong.
但如果没有出错，那就没有出错。
You're alive.
你还活着。
You only need to remember to avoid whatever puts you in that circumstance.
你只需要记住避免任何让你陷入这种情况的事情。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
But that can still be scary, right?
但这仍然很可怕，对吧？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sure.
当然。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
And this is where I think it's like, we talked about this before, this appraisal is very important.
我认为这就是我们之前讨论过的，这个评估非常重要。
In the case of focus, it's a little bit different, but just to make this very concrete, the prefrontal cortex has top-down inputs to many of the neuromodulatory systems.
在注意力的情况下，情况略有不同，但为了使这一点变得非常具体，前额叶皮层对许多神经调节系统都有自上而下的输入。
So On average, people tend to think of the neuromodulatory systems like dopamine and norepinephrine as being very bottom-up.
因此，平均而言，人们倾向于认为多巴胺和去甲肾上腺素等神经调节系统是自下而上的。
They just send signals everywhere and set the brain into focus or not focus or whatever.
它们只是向各处发送信号，让大脑集中或不集中等等。
But the prefrontal cortex has some, anatomically at least, some capability of regulating those systems-
但前额叶皮层至少在解剖学上具有一定的调节这些系统的能力——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
...
...
both directly and indirectly.
直接和间接。
And so that does, I think, speak to this idea that if you have a very strong goal focus, you can, in fact, regulate the dopamine system.
所以，我认为，这确实说明了这样一个想法：如果你有一个非常强烈的目标焦点，你实际上可以调节多巴胺系统。
I think it's a reasonable, and norepinephrine too, noradrenergic system.
我认为这是一个合理的去甲肾上腺素系统。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
So I think it's a reasonable thing, and I'd bet you Amy Arnsten has done some related work on this topic.
所以我认为这是一个合理的事情，我敢打赌艾米·阿恩斯滕（Amy Arnsten）已经就这个主题做了一些相关的工作。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'll check it out.
我会检查一下。
Earlier you mentioned, and I want to make sure that we return to this notion of taking care of one's vision and one's hearing as a way to offset memory loss.
您之前提到过，我想确保我们回到照顾视力和听力的观念上来，以此作为抵消记忆丧失的一种方法。
Very important concepts.
非常重要的概念。
Could you share with us what's known about that?
您能与我们分享一下对此的了解吗？
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
This is just starting to be a thing, but the effect sizes, for instance, for hearing aids, are really strong, both in reducing AD risk, I believe, and in-
这才刚刚开始成为一件事，但效果大小（例如助听器）非常强大，我相信，无论是在降低 AD 风险方面，还是在-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Alzheimer's dementia
阿尔茨海默氏痴呆
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
...
...
Alzheimer's risk, and in just good cognitive aging, and keeping your memory as you get older.
阿尔茨海默病的风险，以及良好的认知老化，以及随着年龄的增长而保持记忆力。
Even if you don't get-
即使你没有得到——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So don't listen to your headphones too loud, kids.
所以孩子们，不要用耳机听太大声。
Right?
正确的？
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Well, actually, okay, so speaking of things I did to preserve my brain health, I'm playing in a band now, and we're pretty damn loud.
好吧，实际上，好吧，说到我为保持大脑健康所做的事情，我现在在乐队里演奏，我们的声音非常大。
And so I went to an audiologist, and I got custom earplugs.
所以我去找了一位听力学家，并得到了定制的耳塞。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
So there.
就这样。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
All the top music-- I'm friends with some really amazing musicians.
所有顶级音乐——我和一些非常出色的音乐家是朋友。
They all wear insert earplugs.
他们都戴着插入式耳塞。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
But I think these custom ones will be more effective at both preserving the spectrum of all the frequencies, so yeah.
但我认为这些定制的在保留所有频率的频谱方面会更有效，所以是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, I just mean protect your hearing.
嗯，我只是说保护你的听力。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
No, but yeah.
不，但是是的。
But they're related because if you can't hear your frequencies, you might end up turning up, and you get this paradoxical-
但它们是相关的，因为如果你听不到你的频率，你最终可能会出现，然后你就会得到这个自相矛盾的结果——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sure
当然可以
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
...
...
thing, so too much information, I know.
事情，太多信息了，我知道。
But basically, that is, yeah.
但基本上，就是这样。
So there is this issue with, in fact, actually, there's an article that Shirzai sent me in The Lancet, that one of their public health recommendations is to get into a preventative mode for preventing Alzheimer's disease, and one of the things they say is screen for hearing and give people hearing aids and make people use them if they have, encourage people to use them.
所以，事实上，事实上，Shirzai 在《柳叶刀》上给我发了一篇文章，他们的公共卫生建议之一是进入预防阿尔茨海默病的预防模式，他们所说的其中一件事是进行听力筛查，为人们提供助听器，让人们使用助听器（如果有的话），鼓励人们使用它们。
Vision is starting to be a big one.
愿景开始变得宏大。
People who are older get cataracts, get it treated.
上了年纪的人得了白内障，要接受治疗。
A lot of this preventative healthcare, which our system is not really equipped for it, but it can really save so much money, it can save so much emotional pain for so many people.
很多预防性医疗保健，我们的系统并没有真正配备，但它确实可以节省很多钱，可以为很多人省去很多情感痛苦。
It's really amazing.
真是太神奇了。
Another one I mentioned briefly is oral hygiene.
我简要提到的另一个问题是口腔卫生。
Gum disease, it turns out, increases your risk for, I believe it's Alzheimer's, and also for cognitive brain health in general.
事实证明，牙龈疾病会增加患阿尔茨海默病的风险，而且还会增加患认知大脑健康的风险。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I did an episode on oral health, and the effects on, as you said, on brain health are amazing.
我做了一集关于口腔健康的节目，正如你所说，它对大脑健康的影响是惊人的。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because Streptococcus mutans, which is the bacteria that causes cavities, can funnel its way into the bloodstream and-
因为变形链球菌（一种引起蛀牙的细菌）可以进入血液，并且——
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
potentially cross the blood-brain barrier, which is, I think, why people think it might be detrimental to brain health.
可能会穿过血脑屏障，我认为这就是为什么人们认为它可能对大脑健康有害。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
I don't know the detailed mechanisms, but I think that makes sense.
我不知道详细机制，但我认为这是有道理的。
And there's this vague notion of cognitive reserve, which is basically some people seem to be quite immune to the effects of cognitive aging, and some people seem to be very protected against Alzheimer's.
还有一种模糊的认知储备概念，基本上就是有些人似乎对认知衰老的影响相当免疫，而有些人似乎对阿尔茨海默病有很好的保护。
So what is it?
那么它是什么？
One of the things that seems to come up as far as depleting cognitive reserve or putting it at a higher risk seems to be inflammation.
就耗尽认知储备或使其面临更高风险而言，似乎出现的事情之一似乎是炎症。
Neuroinflammation.
神经炎症。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
And so Kim McAllister, as you know, is doing work on this topic of neuroimmune interactions, and basically, the immune system expresses itself in the brain.
如您所知，金·麦卡利斯特 (Kim McAllister) 正在研究神经免疫相互作用这一主题，基本上，免疫系统在大脑中表达自身。
You get microglia activation that can cause these inflammatory responses, and there's reasonable evidence suggests that it's interacting with tau and amyloid and this kind of cascade of stuff that happens in Alzheimer's disease.
小胶质细胞激活会引起这些炎症反应，并且有合理的证据表明它与 tau 蛋白和淀粉样蛋白以及阿尔茨海默病中发生的这种级联反应相互作用。
And one of the things that we're learning now, and we don't know nearly enough, but the data out there is quite scary, in fact, is long COVID is associated with significant cognitive effects.
我们现在正在学习的一件事是，我们了解得还不够多，但事实上，现有的数据相当可怕，新冠病毒长期以来与显着的认知影响有关。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And is that the explanation for the brain fog that people report many, many months in?
这就是人们几个月后报告的脑雾的解释吗？
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
So they report a subjective brain fog, and you can measure this as a significant cognitive deficit that they're experiencing.
因此，他们报告了主观脑雾，你可以将其衡量为他们正在经历的严重认知缺陷。
And we've seen in the past, like HIV, there was actually a whole variety of dementia that was associated with HIV from the viral transmission.
我们过去已经看到，就像艾滋病毒一样，实际上有各种各样的痴呆症与病毒传播中的艾滋病毒有关。
You can see with multiple sclerosis where you have autoimmune responses in the brain affect mental function dramatically.
您可以看到，对于多发性硬化症，大脑中的自身免疫反应会极大地影响心理功能。
We're seeing more and more evidence of this, and so this is, again, another one of those things.
我们看到越来越多的证据表明这一点，所以这又是其中的另一件事。
It's like people go, "Oh, COVID, I don't care about it," blah, blah, blah.
就像人们会说，“哦，新冠病毒，我不在乎它”，等等等等。
This is a health thing that can really affect people, and I don't think anybody-- It's not a political issue to get brain fog.
这是一个真正会影响人们的健康问题，我认为没有人会产生脑雾，这不是一个政治问题。
It just sucks.
实在是太糟糕了。
Nobody wants this.
没有人想要这个。
So I think that there's a lot we're learning about viruses and bacteria.
所以我认为我们对病毒和细菌有很多了解。
One of the cool things I was talking about before we started recording is, I was at a conference, I met the coolest guy, and I'm blanking on his name, but I'll send it to you after.
在我们开始录制之前我谈论的一件很酷的事情是，我在一个会议上，我遇到了最酷的人，我对他的名字一无所知，但我会在之后发送给你。
But he did this great study, and he was studying the effects of nutrition on brain health and memory, especially cognition.
但他做了这项伟大的研究，他正在研究营养对大脑健康和记忆（尤其是认知）的影响。
And so I said, "Well, what's the most interesting finding that you've gotten?" I love to ask people this because I'm curious, and it stimulates my curiosity, and I usually get a good answer.
所以我说：“那么，你得到的最有趣的发现是什么？”我喜欢问别人这个问题，因为我很好奇，这会激发我的好奇心，我通常会得到很好的答案。
So he told me he did this study where he has these rats, and he gives them sugary water during the day, about the equivalent, he said, to a can of Coke a day.
所以他告诉我，他做了这项研究，他对这些老鼠进行了研究，他白天给它们喝糖水，他说，大约相当于每天一罐可乐。
So they're getting this sugar.
所以他们得到了这种糖。
When they reach adulthood, these teenage rats, they reach adulthood, and they have memory problems, and they have hippocampal atrophy.
当它们成年时，这些十几岁的老鼠，它们成年了，它们有记忆问题，而且有海马萎缩。
So you go, okay, well, the hippocampus is affected, memory's affected, sugar, blah, blah, blah.
所以你就说，好吧，海马体受到影响，记忆受到影响，糖，等等，等等。
No problem.
没问题。
So then what he does is he takes the gut bacteria from the sugar animals and puts it in an animal that doesn't get this diet And he finds the same kind of pathology and the same kind of memory deficit in these animals.
那么他所做的就是从糖类动物身上取出肠道细菌，并将其放入没有接受这种饮食的动物体内，他在这些动物中发现了同样的病理学和同样的记忆缺陷。
So there's something about that process of the gut-brain interaction that also seems to be playing a part in ways that I don't understand, and I think they're still figuring it out.
因此，肠脑相互作用的过程似乎也以我不理解的方式发挥着作用，我认为他们仍在弄清楚这一点。
But again, this really shows this tight neuroimmune link.
但这再次表明了这种紧密的神经免疫联系。
We're seeing this now with pollution.
我们现在在污染中看到了这一点。
Air pollution is a big factor, so even if people don't believe in global warming, there's nothing good about being in a place with a lot of smoke in the air.
空气污染是一个重要因素，所以即使人们不相信全球变暖，但生活在空气中有大量烟雾的地方也没有什么好处。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
It definitely can, and this is one of the risk factors that is noted in the Lancet report for Alzheimer's disease.
绝对可以，这是《柳叶刀》报告中指出的阿尔茨海默病的危险因素之一。
One of my colleagues, Pam Line, is doing research on this at UC Davis, showing that you get-- She actually takes real pollution from the Caldecott Tunnel, which connects Oakland and-
我的一位同事帕姆·莱恩（Pam Line）正在加州大学戴维斯分校进行这方面的研究，结果表明——她实际上从连接奥克兰和——的凯迪克隧道中获取了真正的污染——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Walnut Creek.
核桃溪。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
And finds that rats exposed to this pollution have hippocampal damage.
并发现暴露于这种污染的老鼠的海马体有损伤。
So there's so many-
所以有这么多——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Very interesting
很有趣
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
...
...
of these environmental factors that can trigger the inflammatory response.
这些环境因素可能会引发炎症反应。
We talked about blood sugar.
我们谈论了血糖。
Blood sugar also seems to be related to these issues.
血糖似乎也与这些问题有关。
And diabetes is so bad in so many ways.
糖尿病在很多方面都很糟糕。
It's associated with those white matter hyperintensities that we talked about, and so that's bad, and we've done some research on that.
它与我们谈到的白质高信号有关，所以这很糟糕，我们对此做了一些研究。
But it also affects, it can cause little-- If you get severe diabetic ketoacidosis, you can actually have hippocampal damage from that directly, and it also dramatically increases Alzheimer's risk, and we have an epidemic of diabetes right now.
但它也会产生影响，它可能会造成很小的影响——如果你患有严重的糖尿病酮症酸中毒，你实际上可能会直接受到海马损伤，而且它还会大大增加患阿尔茨海默病的风险，而我们现在糖尿病正在流行。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This probably explains, at least to my mind, why these lifestyle factors like improved sleep, cardiovascular and resistance training exercise, but certainly cardiovascular exercise, eating a lot of leafy foods, et cetera.
至少在我看来，这可能解释了为什么这些生活方式因素（例如改善睡眠、心血管和阻力训练运动，但当然还有心血管运动、吃大量叶类食物等）。
We know all of those things offset inflammation to some degree or another, right?
我们知道所有这些东西都会在某种程度上抵消炎症，对吧？
One of the best ways to inflame your brain and body is to not get enough sleep and to eat a lot of highly processed foods, for instance.
例如，让大脑和身体发炎的最佳方法之一就是睡眠不足和吃大量精加工食品。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
To date, are there any, even semi-satisfactory, prescription drugs or other compounds that can slow the progression of Alzheimer's dementia once it's started?
迄今为止，是否有任何（甚至是半令人满意的）处方药或其他化合物可以在阿尔茨海默氏痴呆症开始后减缓其进展？
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
There are now some drugs that are, I think they're targeting amyloid, that are producing some modest effects in stalling the progression-
现在有一些药物，我认为它们针对的是淀粉样蛋白，在阻止进展方面产生了一些适度的效果-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
...
...
of the disease.
的疾病。
See, the problem with Alzheimer's, as you know, is once you lose neurons, you're not getting them back.
你看，正如你所知，阿尔茨海默氏症的问题是一旦失去神经元，就无法恢复它们。
And it's like, yeah, there's neurogenesis and you can run around-
就像，是的，有神经发生，你可以到处跑-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But it ain't much
但这并不多
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
...
...
but it's not much.
但并不多。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, it's not much.
是的，并不多。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
If you're depending on that, you're hosed.
如果你依赖于此，那你就完蛋了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
But getting back to the exercise thing, it's neuroprotective.
但回到锻炼的问题上来，它具有神经保护作用。
And so, let's say with a drug, right?
那么，我们可以说用药物，对吧？
Everybody wants a drug.
每个人都想要毒品。
If I told you I'd give you this drug, you're 60 years old, and it's going to have some terrible side effects, you're going to get diarrhea, nausea, all this stuff, but it'll reduce your risk of Alzheimer's by 40%, a lot of people would be motivated to take it.
如果我告诉你我会给你这种药，你已经 60 岁了，它会产生一些可怕的副作用，你会腹泻、恶心等等，但它会降低你患阿尔茨海默病的风险 40%，很多人都会有动力去服用它。
Now I tell you, "Okay.
现在我告诉你：“好吧。
Well, here's a lifestyle intervention that's going to involve what Sara Mednick calls down states." We can actually get into that and memory reactivation during down states, but involves sleep, diet, exercise, social stimulation, right?
嗯，这是一种生活方式干预措施，将涉及萨拉·梅德尼克所说的“各州”。”我们实际上可以在情绪低落时重新激活记忆，但涉及睡眠、饮食、锻炼、社交刺激，对吗？
And these things, by the way, also reinforce each other.
顺便说一句，这些东西也互相促进。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Having better sleep makes it easier to exercise.
拥有更好的睡眠可以更轻松地锻炼。
Having exercise makes it better to sleep.
锻炼身体可以让睡眠更好。
All of these improve mood, right?
所有这些都能改善心情，对吗？
So these will improve your mental function, your mood, as well as your mental function relatively soon, and reduce your risk by at least 40%, if not more.
因此，这些将相对较快地改善您的心理功能、您的情绪以及您的心理功能，并将您的风险降低至少 40%（如果不是更多）。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wow.
哇。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
I can send you this Lancet article, but it's like the amount, the proportion of variance, meaning the degree of risk that you can reduce with fully preventable or fully in our control lifestyle issues, is huge.
我可以向您发送这篇《柳叶刀》文章，但这就像数量、方差比例一样，这意味着您可以通过完全可预防或完全控制的生活方式问题来降低风险程度，这是巨大的。
It's as big or bigger than the genetics.
它与遗传学一样大，甚至更大。
So-
所以——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think people really need to hear and internalize that because I think everyone's waiting for this miracle drug that is unlikely to ever arrive, frankly.
我认为人们确实需要听到并内化这一点，因为我认为每个人都在等待这种神奇的药物，坦率地说，它不太可能到来。
To date, we have some okay treatments for Parkinson's-
迄今为止，我们对帕金森病有一些不错的治疗方法-
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
to try and offset the loss of dopaminergic neurons, but they can even transplant essentially dopaminergic neurons into the substantia nigra.
试图抵消多巴胺能神经元的损失，但他们甚至可以将本质上的多巴胺能神经元移植到黑质中。
But none of those things, L-DOPA, et cetera, have proved to be cures for Parkinson's.
但这些药物，如左旋多巴等，都没有被证明可以治愈帕金森氏症。
Not getting hit in the head is helpful.
头部不被击中是有帮助的。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
Traumatic brain injury-
外伤性脑损伤——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
...
...
is another one of the big risk factors.
是另一个重大风险因素。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So there are a lot of don'ts.
所以有很多不该做的事情。
I'm grateful that today you're sharing a number of dos-
我很感激你今天分享了一些要做的事-
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
both in the context of offsetting age-related cognitive decline, Alzheimer's, but also in terms of how to enhance focus and enhance memory.
既是在抵消与年龄相关的认知衰退、阿尔茨海默氏症方面，也是在如何增强注意力和增强记忆力方面。
I want to make sure that we touch on a few topics related to memory that are a little bit off the trajectory we're on now, but that come up a lot when people start thinking about memory.
我想确保我们触及一些与记忆相关的主题，这些主题有点偏离我们现在的轨道，但当人们开始思考记忆时，这些主题就会经常出现。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And one that's kind of intriguing, very intriguing, is déjà vu.
一种非常有趣的现象是似曾相识。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do we have any understanding about what déjà vu is?
我们了解什么是似曾相识吗？
Is it just like a recollection of something similar that spontaneously gets triggered?
是不是就像想起类似的事情就会自发地被触发？
What is déjà vu?
什么是似曾相识？
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Well, it's not fully understood, but I'll give you my best guess that's science-based and not just my wildly speculating completely.
好吧，这还没有完全理解，但我会给你我最好的猜测，这是有科学依据的，而不仅仅是我的疯狂猜测。
But basically, one of the early findings that gave you a sense about what déjà vu is, is Hughlings Jackson, who's this great neurologist who did pioneering work in behavioral neurology, observed that many patients who get epilepsy would have this aura.
但基本上，让你了解什么是似曾相识的早期发现之一是休林斯·杰克逊（Hughlings Jackson），他是一位伟大的神经学家，在行为神经学方面做出了开创性的工作，他观察到许多癫痫患者都会有这种先兆。
It's this mental sensations right before a seizure, where they would get an intense feeling of déjà vu.
正是癫痫发作前的这种精神感觉，让他们有一种强烈的似曾相识的感觉。
It doesn't happen in everyone, but a certain number And this is associated with temporal lobe epilepsy.
并不是每个人都会发生这种情况，但有一定数量的人会发生这种情况，这与颞叶癫痫有关。
And the hippocampus, as you know, is in the temporal lobe, but there's also these areas around it that are super important for memory, including the amygdala, but also really the perirhinal cortex is a key player in this.
正如你所知，海马体位于颞叶，但它周围的其他区域对记忆也非常重要，包括杏仁核，但实际上，鼻周皮层在这方面起着关键作用。
So then you have Wilder Penfield and other people who started to do these surgeries for epilepsy, and they said, "Well, I want to make sure I'm not taking out good brain." So Penfield wasn't responsible for H.M., and that was kind of an irresponsible surgery.
怀尔德·彭菲尔德（Wilder Penfield）和其他人开始对癫痫进行这些手术，他们说：“好吧，我想确保我没有切除好大脑。”所以彭菲尔德不对 H.M. 负责，这是一种不负责任的手术。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
H.M.
H.M.
is a now dead, famous patient and literally chapter in the history of neuroscience.
是一位现已去世的著名患者，也是神经科学史上的一个新篇章。
Somebody who had his hippocampi bilaterally, one on each side of the brain, removed to treat epilepsy.
有人为了治疗癫痫症而切除了双侧海马体（大脑两侧各一个）。
It fixed the epilepsy, but he had lost all capacity to remember prior events.
它治愈了癫痫症，但他失去了记住之前事件的所有能力。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
In fact, he had this dense amnesia.
事实上，他患有严重的失忆症。
And actually, one of the little-known things, even in memory research, is he had what's called a temporal lobectomy, where they just hack off the front part of the temporal lobe, or it might've been cauterized.
事实上，即使在记忆研究中，鲜为人知的事情之一是他接受了所谓的颞叶切除术，他们只是切除了颞叶的前部，或者可能已被烧灼。
I think he cauterized it.
我认为他烧灼了它。
But anyway, they do that temporal lobectomy, and he actually had the posterior one-third of his hippocampus, but he had lost his perirhinal cortex bilaterally.
但无论如何，他们做了颞叶切除术，他实际上保留了海马体的后三分之一，但他失去了双侧的鼻周皮质。
And that turned out to be Betsy Murray at NIH later, and other people, turned out to be a huge thing.
后来证明，这就是美国国立卫生研究院的贝特西·默里（Betsy Murray）和其他人，结果证明这是一件大事。
So one of the reasons I think that he became so densely amnestic is that it was bilateral.
所以我认为他变得如此严重的记忆删除的原因之一是这是双边的。
So if you think about the brain, you have a side of the brain that's causing a seizure, so you kind of got a spare tire on the other side where it's like that other healthy tissue on the other side can sometimes pick up the slack.
因此，如果你考虑一下大脑，你的大脑的一侧会引起癫痫发作，所以你的另一侧有一个备胎，就像另一侧的其他健康组织有时可以弥补这一缺陷。
But if you take out both hemispheres, now you're in really bad shape.
但如果你去掉了两个半球，现在你的状况就非常糟糕了。
So Scoville did that.
所以斯科维尔就这么做了。
He actually did it for people who are-- H.M.
他实际上是为了那些——H.M.
had epilepsy, and it was a legit operation in that sense, but he did it for people who had, I think, psychosis, too, depression.
他患有癫痫症，从这个意义上说，这是一次合法的手术，但他为那些我认为也患有精神病和抑郁症的人做这件事。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Back then, they just did all kinds of crazy stuff.
那时，他们只是做了各种疯狂的事情。
But Penfield was like, "No, I want to make sure I take out only the tissue that needs to go." So what do you do?
但彭菲尔德说：“不，我想确保只取出需要取出的纸巾。”那么你做什么呢？
You stimulate different parts of the brain, and you see does it produce anything other than a seizure.
你刺激大脑的不同部分，你会发现它除了癫痫发作之外还会产生什么反应。
And if so, that's not an area you want to remove.
如果是这样，那么这不是您想要删除的区域。
And so he would go into the anterior temporal lobes and stimulate, and people would have, sometimes they would have an intense, real memory.
所以他会进入前颞叶并刺激，人们有时会有强烈的、真实的记忆。
But sometimes they would have this intense sense of déjà vu, where it's like they feel this, I feel like I've lived out this whole thing that's happening right now, I've lived it before.
但有时他们会有一种强烈的似曾相识的感觉，就好像他们有这种感觉，我觉得我已经经历过现在正在发生的这一切，我以前也经历过。
When you know that's not true, right?
当你知道那不是真的时，对吗？
So what is this?
那么这是什么？
Well, a number of people, my lab was heavily involved with this, and Andy Yonelinas at UC Davis was really central to a lot of this stuff, found that the perirhinal cortex, which is this area, as I said, it's a big player with the hippocampus, seems to be very critical for this general sense of familiarity that we have.
嗯，我的实验室有很多人参与了这方面的工作，加州大学戴维斯分校的安迪·约内利纳斯 (Andy Yonelinas) 确实是很多这些东西的核心，他发现鼻周皮层，即这个区域，正如我所说，它是海马体的重要参与者，似乎对于我们所拥有的这种普遍熟悉感非常关键。
And so, I use in the book an example of if I say, have you eaten a rambutan before?
因此，我在书中举了一个例子，如果我说，你以前吃过红毛丹吗？
Now, you being a worldly guy might have.
现在，你作为一个世俗的人可能会。
Have you ever eaten a rambutan?
你吃过红毛丹吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, I don't know what that is.
不，我不知道那是什么。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Okay.
好的。
So how quick was it that you were able to say no?
那么你多久才能拒绝呢？
That you were able to think about it and go, I've never eaten a rambutan.
你能想一想就走吧，我从来没有吃过红毛丹。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Less than a second.
不到一秒钟。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Okay.
好的。
So you didn't have to search your entire memory for whether or not you've eaten a rambutan.
所以你不必搜索你的整个记忆来判断你是否吃过红毛丹。
You know because it's so unfamiliar, right?
你知道，因为它太陌生了，对吧？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Correct.
正确。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
So things that are highly familiar, like maybe I'll ask have you eaten a banana before or grapes before, you can say yes, and partly, you don't even have to remember any instance.
所以那些非常熟悉的事情，比如我可能会问你以前吃过香蕉或葡萄吗，你可以说是，而且部分地，你甚至不需要记住任何实例。
It just feels right.
感觉不错。
Those are very familiar things to you.
这些对你来说都是非常熟悉的事情。
Have you ever seen a grape before?
你以前见过葡萄吗？
Yes, of course you have, right?
是的，你当然有，对吧？
Apple, very familiar to people.
苹果，人们非常熟悉。
So we just have that general fluency, and you can look at this like you go into the grocery store and you see someone, and you're like, I know I've seen this person before.
所以我们只有一般的流畅性，你可以像走进杂货店看到某人一样看待这个，你会说，我知道我以前见过这个人。
Where have I seen them before?
我以前在哪里见过他们？
And then you leave, and eventually you're like, "Oh, well, that was somebody who I met at this conference," or something like that.
然后你离开，最终你会说，“哦，好吧，那是我在这次会议上遇到的人”，或者类似的话。
But you weren't expecting them at this context, and no episodic memory is triggered.
但你并没有预料到它们会出现在这种情况下，也不会触发任何情景记忆。
But there was something about their features that felt very fluent and natural to you and triggered that sense of familiarity.
但他们的特征有些让你感觉非常流畅和自然，并引发了那种熟悉感。
And that seems to be processed, and you can see brain activity associated with that in the perirhinal cortex.
这似乎已经被处理了，你可以看到与鼻周皮层相关的大脑活动。
And people with damage to the perirhinal cortex seem to not differentiate between the rambutan and the banana.
鼻周皮层受损的人似乎无法区分红毛丹和香蕉。
It's all kind of unfamiliar to them.
这一切对于他们来说都是陌生的。
They might remember, I've eaten a banana, but they don't necessarily have that sense of familiarity.
他们可能记得，我吃过香蕉，但他们不一定有那种熟悉感。
And Rebecca Burwell at Brown University did the coolest experiment that doesn't nearly get-- You know how in science you get these unsung hero experiment?
布朗大学的丽贝卡·伯韦尔做了一个最酷的实验，但几乎没有——你知道在科学中如何进行这些无名英雄实验吗？
Well, this was one of them where she stimulated, in rats, the perirhinal cortex at this frequency called the beta frequency, which is kind of a relatively low-frequency oscillation, and basically put two objects in front of the animal.
嗯，这是其中之一，她以称为β频率的频率刺激老鼠的鼻周皮层，这是一种相对低频的振荡，并且基本上将两个物体放在动物面前。
And so typically, if there's a new object, the animal will spend more time exploring it, right?
通常情况下，如果有一个新物体，动物会花更多时间探索它，对吗？
And depending on how she timed the stimulation, she could make the animal think that a familiar object was novel.
根据她如何安排刺激时间，她可以让动物认为熟悉的物体是新奇的。
She stimulates at a different frequency, I think it was gamma, and the animal now thinks of, or actually, it was like, yeah, so now the animal thinks that a familiar thing is novel.
她以不同的频率进行刺激，我认为这是伽玛，动物现在想到，或者实际上，就像，是的，所以现在动物认为熟悉的事物是新奇的。
With beta, it was that it thought a novel thing was familiar.
对于 beta 来说，它认为新奇的事物是熟悉的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wow.
哇。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
So could literally use this stimulation To change the way the animal is interacting with, in presumably a memory-driven way, with this object, right?
那么实际上可以使用这种刺激来改变动物与这个物体互动的方式，大概是一种记忆驱动的方式，对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So for those looking for novelty in different domains of life, maybe this is the solution.
因此，对于那些在生活的不同领域寻找新奇事物的人来说，也许这就是解决方案。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Maybe, yeah.
也许，是的。
And so Anne Cleary, just to close the loop here, who's a great researcher at Colorado State, developed this beautiful paradigm where what she does is she said, "Okay, well, does that relate to déjà vu?
因此，安妮·克利里（Anne Cleary），科罗拉多州立大学的一位出色的研究员，为了结束这个循环，开发了这个美丽的范式，她所做的是她说：“好吧，这与似曾相识有关吗？
Well, let's see." So what she did was use virtual reality.
好吧，让我们看看。”所以她所做的就是使用虚拟现实。
And so in virtual reality, you can create these environments and put objects in particular places.
因此，在虚拟现实中，您可以创建这些环境并将对象放置在特定的位置。
And so she creates these virtual environments where there are particular objects in particular places, and let's say one's a museum, right?
所以她创建了这些虚拟环境，在特定的地方有特定的物体，比如说一个博物馆，对吧？
So a person can go through passively and watch a movie, or they actively navigate through these spaces.
因此，一个人可以被动地穿过并观看电影，或者主动地穿过这些空间。
And then what she does is she has them go through, let's say, a video arcade.
然后她所做的就是让他们经历一个视频游戏厅。
But unbeknownst to the subject, the objects that are in the room are in exactly the same positions as the objects in the museum.
但受试者不知道的是，房间里的物品与博物馆里的物品的位置完全相同。
But it's a video arcade, so it looks different.
但它是一个电子游戏厅，所以看起来不一样。
But the room shape, the spatial layout, everything is identical.
但房间的形状，空间的布局，一切都是一模一样的。
It's got a different skin on it, so to speak, for video gamers.
可以说，对于视频游戏玩家来说，它有一个不同的皮肤。
So what happens is people are much more likely, very likely to produce a déjà vu sensation when they're in these places, these virtual environments, that look very much like where they've been, but they're mismatching in some critical way.
因此，当人们身处这些地方、这些虚拟环境时，他们更有可能、非常有可能产生似曾相识的感觉，这些地方看起来非常像他们去过的地方，但在某些关键方面不匹配。
So it's like you've got enough to trigger the strong sense of familiarity, but the mismatch is suppressing recollection.
所以就好像你已经拥有足够的东西来引发强烈的熟悉感，但不匹配却抑制了回忆。
And so that seems to be a crucial part of why you get this uncanny feeling of remembering, is the strong familiarity you get.
因此，这似乎是你获得这种不可思议的记忆感的一个关键部分，那就是你获得了强烈的熟悉感。
And by the way, I've watched these movies, and I cannot for the life of me see that the museum is the same as the arcade.
顺便说一句，我看过这些电影，但我一生都看不到博物馆和游乐场是一样的。
It just feels so different cognitively.
只是认知上感觉如此不同。
But I can imagine being like if I really did it immersively, having that sense of familiarity.
但我可以想象，如果我真的身临其境地做到了这一点，就有那种熟悉感。
So you're really pitting these things in opposition to each other.
所以你实际上是在让这些东西相互对立。
And so what likely happens with déjà vu is something uncanny that triggers a little bit of memory retrieval or a strong fluency, but then there's a mismatch that suppresses it and prevents a context from coming up.
因此，似曾相识的情况可能会发生一些不可思议的事情，它会触发一点记忆检索或很强的流畅性，但随后会出现一种不匹配的情况，抑制它并阻止上下文出现。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd like to talk about the relationship between memory and mental health for the following reason.
我想谈谈记忆力与心理健康之间的关系，原因如下。
I'm very struck by the fact that in experiments, such as the work that Karl Deisseroth, who was actually the first guest on this podcast, brilliant neuroengineer, of course, and psychiatrist, described in which he's talking to a patient who's depressed.
我对以下事实感到非常震惊：在实验中，例如卡尔·戴瑟罗斯（Karl Deisseroth）的作品，他实际上是这个播客的第一位嘉宾，当然也是杰出的神经工程师，也是精神病学家，他描述了他正在与一位抑郁症患者交谈。
This patient has a stimulator for the vagus nerve.
该患者身上装有迷走神经刺激器。
They can crank up stimulation of the vagus nerve.
它们可以加强对迷走神经的刺激。
And essentially, the narrative goes from this patient, I believe it was a woman in this case, talking about being suicidally depressed.
从本质上讲，这个故事是从这个病人开始的，我相信在这个案例中，她是一个女人，谈论着有自杀倾向的抑郁症。
She can't anticipate doing anything of any interest or excitement to her.
她无法预料会做任何让她感兴趣或兴奋的事情。
Increasing vagal stimulation, which by the way, folks, does not just calm people down.
顺便说一句，增加迷走神经刺激，这不仅能让人平静下来。
Vagal stimulation actually creates a lot of alertness.
迷走神经刺激实际上会产生很多警觉性。
So this is a vast misconception out there that vagal stimulation is all about calming.
因此，认为迷走神经刺激就是为了镇静，这是一个巨大的误解。
In any case, as the vagal stimulation goes up, her narrative literally changes in real time to, "Yeah, I could see myself going out and applying for a job.
无论如何，随着迷走神经刺激的增加，她的叙述实际上会实时改变，“是的，我可以看到自己出去申请工作。
I'm kind of excited about the future," et cetera.
我对未来感到有点兴奋，”等等。
So complete transformation of one's outlook.
如此彻底转变一个人的观念。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But also, in some instances, memory of prior events.
但在某些情况下，还包括对先前事件的记忆。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So how we cast prior events-
那么我们如何投射之前的事件-
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
That's really interesting
这真的很有趣
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
is so interesting.
太有趣了。
And the bridge I'd like to build right now conceptually is that there are two papers that intrigued me.
我现在想在概念上搭建的桥梁是有两篇论文引起了我的兴趣。
One is a paper from Lamberto Maffei's lab in Pisa, which had a paradigm for exploring learned helplessness in rodents, which is a sort of a model for depression, how long a rodent is willing to swim in water to save its life, right?
其中一篇是 Lamberto Maffei 比萨实验室的论文，其中有一个探索啮齿类动物习得性无助的范式，这是一种抑郁症模型，啮齿类动物愿意在水中游泳多长时间来拯救自己的生命，对吗？
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Before it gives up.
在它放弃之前。
And there's a learned helplessness that eventually arrives.
最终会出现一种习得性无助。
These, yes, are not kind experiments.
是的，这些都不是善意的实验。
But at some point, they give up, and then they've essentially learned they're helpless.
但在某些时候，他们放弃了，然后他们基本上就知道自己是无助的。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And of course, they save the animal before it dies.
当然，他们会在动物死前拯救它。
But these animals, given essentially an SSRI-
但这些动物，本质上是给予 SSRI-
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
like Prozac, can restore some sense of hope, meaning they'll swim longer after having learned to be helpless.
就像百忧解一样，可以恢复一些希望感，这意味着他们在学会无助后会游得更久。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Is it recovery of depression?
这是抑郁症恢复了吗？
We don't know.
我们不知道。
But in humans, you see some of the same thing when SSRIs have been effective, and they're not always effective.
但在人类身上，当 SSRI 有效时，你会看到一些相同的情况，但它们并不总是有效。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You also see this in some of the psilocybin trials-
您还在一些裸盖菇素试验中看到了这一点 -
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Mm
毫米
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
where people have done the psilocybin therapies.
人们在那里进行裸盖菇素疗法。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Oh yeah, we got to talk about that.
哦，是的，我们得谈谈这个。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
In the correct context, and now all of a sudden, people have this completely different emotional version of the same events.
在正确的背景下，现在突然之间，人们对同一事件有了完全不同的情感版本。
Like, yep, a bunch of terrible things happened, or with the MDMA trials for PTSD, controversial right now, FDA didn't approve it, but a good number of patients describe saying, "Yeah, this really terrible set of things that happened, those happened."
就像，是的，发生了一系列可怕的事情，或者针对 PTSD 的 MDMA 试验，目前存在争议，FDA 没有批准它，但很多患者描述说，“是的，发生了这一系列非常可怕的事情，那些发生了。”
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
"But I accept it, and I'm taking the lessons, and I'm moving on," and then there's maybe even forgiveness, et cetera.
“但我接受它，我正在接受教训，我正在继续前进，”然后甚至可能是宽恕，等等。
So to me, this is a shift in memory brought about by a dramatic shift in neuromodulators.
所以对我来说，这是神经调节剂的巨大变化带来的记忆变化。
SSRIs, of course, increase serotonin.
当然，SSRIs 会增加血清素。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Psilocybin increases serotonin, and it's interesting to me that MDMA, while it increases dopamine, most dramatically increases serotonin.
赛洛西宾会增加血清素，令我感兴趣的是，摇头丸虽然会增加多巴胺，但最显着地增加血清素。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Let's say 7X or more in terms of the-- Now, I'm not suggesting anyone do these drugs at all.
让我们说 7 倍或更多——现在，我根本不建议任何人服用这些药物。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yeah, you can blow out the serotonergic system with too much of it.
是的，服用太多可能会破坏血清素系统。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
With too much of?
用太多了？
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Too much MDA, MA.
MDA、MA 太多。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Although the studies on this is interesting because the study that claimed that MDMA did that actually was retracted from science.
尽管这方面的研究很有趣，因为声称 MDMA 具有这种作用的研究实际上已从科学中撤回。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Oh, is that right?
哦，是吗？
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It turns out they had inadvertently used methamphetamine.
原来他们无意中使用了冰毒。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Oh, jeez.
哦，天哪。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Keep in mind, folks, that MDMA is methylenedioxymethamphetamine, so I'm not suggesting anyone do these drugs.
请记住，伙计们，摇头丸是亚甲二氧基甲基苯丙胺，所以我不建议任何人使用这些药物。
I'm using this as a conceptual template.
我用它作为概念模板。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
This is abuse we're talking about, too.
这也是我们正在谈论的虐待。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Right.
正确的。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
It's not like-
这不像是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
So in clinical trials, it's clearly been shown, both for SSRIs as well as for psilocybin, these are still emerging clinical trials, and MDMA That in a significant percentage of individuals, especially when combined with therapy, people can now feel differently about the same memory.
因此，在临床试验中，已经清楚地表明，对于 SSRI 和裸盖菇素来说，这些仍然是新兴的临床试验，而 MDMA 在相当大比例的个体中，特别是在与治疗相结合时，人们现在对相同的记忆会有不同的感觉。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So feeling different about the same memory and feeling different about, therefore, the sense of possibility going forward.
因此，对相同的记忆有不同的感觉，对未来的可能性也有不同的感觉。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This to me is incredible.
这对我来说是不可思议的。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it speaks to the fact that much of depression, the lack of a positive anticipation about the future, et cetera, is based on memories about failures of past-
它说明了这样一个事实：抑郁症、对未来缺乏积极预期等，很大程度上是基于对过去失败的记忆。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
or harms of past.
或过去的伤害。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Rumination, basically.
基本上是沉思。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
So what is the relationship between the serotonin system and memory?
那么5-羟色胺系统和记忆之间有什么关系呢？
Or what is the relationship, more broadly, of these neuromodulatory systems or the vagal system that can create these incredible reversals of what we previously thought of as terrible, as manageable-
或者更广泛地说，这些神经调节系统或迷走神经系统之间的关系是什么，它们可以创造出这些令人难以置信的逆转，使我们以前认为是可怕的、可控的——
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and therefore, we're willing to lean into life again?
因此，我们愿意再次投入生活吗？
What is that?
那是什么？
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Again, serotonin's like a neuromodulator.
再说一次，血清素就像一种神经调节剂。
It enhances plasticity.
它增强了可塑性。
And what I mean by that is that if you have a transient learning event, you will get a change in the connections between neurons that were active during that event.
我的意思是，如果你有一个短暂的学习事件，你会在该事件期间活跃的神经元之间的连接发生变化。
And super interesting work right now going on in behavioral timescale plasticity and all this stuff.
目前正在行为时间尺度可塑性和所有这些方面进行超级有趣的工作。
So it's not just cells that wire together, fire together.
因此，不仅仅是细胞连接在一起、一起放电。
It's more interesting, actually.
事实上，这更有趣。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Or fire together, wire together.
或者一起点火，一起接线。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
It's more interesting.
更有趣的是。
But those changes can often be transient, and what people-- So, like Eric Kandel, for instance, is one who studied serotonin in particular and emphasized this, but basically many neuromodulators, if you give a little bath, bathe these neurons in serotonin or other neuromodulators, you stabilize that plasticity, and that allows increases in receptor density between these neurons that allow them to communicate more effectively.
但这些变化往往是短暂的，而人们——例如埃里克·坎德尔（Eric Kandel）特别研究了血清素并强调了这一点，但基本上许多神经调节剂，如果你稍微洗澡，将这些神经元浸泡在血清素或其他神经调节剂中，你就可以稳定这种可塑性，从而增加这些神经元之间的受体密度，从而使它们能够更有效地沟通。
Now you can get weakening in LTD too.
现在你也可以削弱LTD。
We won't get into that, but serotonin definitely promotes plasticity, right?
我们不会讨论这个，但血清素肯定会促进可塑性，对吧？
And so one of the things I talk about in my book is that memories are-- I mean, we all have plasticity.
因此，我在书中谈到的一件事是，记忆是——我的意思是，我们都有可塑性。
As I said, retrieving a memory can allow us to change the memory in certain ways, and when you get into the details of it, it becomes complicated in interesting ways.
正如我所说，检索记忆可以让我们以某些方式改变记忆，当你深入了解它的细节时，它会以有趣的方式变得复杂。
But the short version is you can change it.
但简短的版本是你可以改变它。
We get a small part of what happened when we remember.
当我们记得时，我们就得到了发生的事情的一小部分。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
But there's that feeling of the context.
但有一种上下文的感觉。
There's that emotional response that we have that's both a kind of a basic raw motivational, my heart's racing or something like that.
我们有一种情绪反应，这既是一种基本的原始动机，我的心跳加速之类的。
That's why people often say, well, emotional memories are stored in the body.
这就是为什么人们常说，情感记忆储存在身体里。
Well, it's just part of the memory.
嗯，这只是记忆的一部分。
It's a retrieval cue, so to speak, and it can also be part of the retrieved experience.
可以说，这是一种检索线索，也可以是检索经验的一部分。
But you have all of these factors going on that are part of this emotional memory, and then you have a story that you create, a narrative that you use to make sense of it, and that affects all these physiological systems too, right?
但是，所有这些因素都在发生，它们都是情感记忆的一部分，然后你就有了一个你创造的故事，一个你用来理解它的叙述，它也会影响所有这些生理系统，对吗？
So every time I talk in the book about an example of how group therapy is so powerful as a means of memory updating and social interactions, where it's like people can change the narrative.
因此，每次我在书中谈到团体治疗作为记忆更新和社交互动的手段如何如此强大的例子时，人们就可以改变叙述。
They say, "Well, I gave you this narrative about how I'm loud," and you told me, "Well, I remember hanging out with you, and you weren't loud then, you're not loud now." And so now I can update these memories maybe.
他们说，“好吧，我给你讲述了我是如何大声的，”你告诉我，“好吧，我记得和你一起出去玩，那时你不大声，现在也不大声。”所以现在我也许可以更新这些记忆了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Vivacious.
活泼。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yeah, exactly.
是的，完全正确。
I could reframe it, right?
我可以重新构造它，对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
And these framing effects are huge.
这些框架效应是巨大的。
So in theory, people can take an experience that was traumatic, and many people do, and say, "This made me who I am, and I'm happy with who I am now, even though this was a horrible thing, I'm stronger for it," or, "I'm a survivor," or, "I couldn't have done anything about it and it's not my fault." Or you can have these narratives of shame and so forth, and guilt, and anger, and so forth.
因此，从理论上讲，人们可以经历一次创伤性的经历（很多人确实如此），然后说：“这造就了我，我对现在的自己很满意，尽管这是一件可怕的事情，但我因此变得更坚强”，或者“我是幸存者”，或者“我对此无能为力，这不是我的错。”或者你可以有这些关于羞耻等、内疚、愤怒等的叙述。
I'm not judging anybody's reaction to trauma, but what I am saying is that's part of the emotional response, it's part of the memory that people construct.
我不是在评判任何人对创伤的反应，但我想说的是，这是情绪反应的一部分，是人们构建的记忆的一部分。
The problem is that with traumatic memories, when they do stick, it's hard to change because there's so much plasticity driven by the neuromodulators during that event.
问题是，对于创伤性记忆，当它们确实存在时，就很难改变，因为在该事件期间，神经调节剂驱动的可塑性太大了。
With PTSD, I mean, we could talk about that, that's a whole another thing, but let's just take traumatic memories.
我的意思是，对于创伤后应激障碍（PTSD），我们可以谈论这一点，那是另一回事，但让我们只讨论创伤记忆。
It's so intense, and the amygdala response drives the physiology in many cases of that arousal, which makes you feel like this immediacy of it, right?
它是如此强烈，在许多这种兴奋的情况下，杏仁核反应会驱动生理机能，这让你感觉它是即时的，对吧？
And it affects sleep and nightmares, all that stuff.
它会影响睡眠和噩梦等等。
But anyway, stay out of PTSD for a while because that's a whole another thing.
但无论如何，暂时远离创伤后应激障碍，因为那完全是另一回事。
But those memories are very resistant because of that intensity, and often the more we retrieve them, we re-traumatize ourself.
但由于这种强度，这些记忆非常具有抵抗力，而且往往我们越多地回忆它们，我们就会重新伤害自己。
So reframing in a cognitive therapy sense is very difficult because they feel this, and their brain is telling them, "I'm under threat," or, "I'm ashamed," because they've reinforced this narrative so many times.
因此，从认知治疗的角度重新构建是非常困难的，因为他们感觉到了这一点，他们的大脑告诉他们，“我受到威胁”，或者“我感到羞耻”，因为他们已经多次强化了这种叙述。
And you can work through the logic, but sometimes you need to create some big prediction error to generate some error-driven learning, which is something we could talk about, or you need some kind of help.
你可以通过逻辑来工作，但有时你需要创建一些大的预测错误来生成一些错误驱动的学习，这是我们可以讨论的，或者你需要某种帮助。
So if you're driving neuromodulatory systems like that theoretically could give you a broader window of plasticity.
因此，如果你正在驱动这样的神经调节系统，理论上可以为你提供更广阔的可塑性窗口。
In fact, actually, we're trying Prozac on my dog, and one of the things that has seemed-
事实上，实际上，我们正在我的狗身上尝试百忧解，其中一件事似乎是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Why?
为什么？
Is it dogs?
是狗吗？
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
She's very anxious.
她很着急。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Uh-huh.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
And it's to the point where she'll not exercise, even though she's a very active dog.
尽管她是一只非常活跃的狗，但她已经不再运动了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
She'll stop on a walk if she hears a garbage truck anywhere.
如果她听到任何地方有垃圾车，她就会停下来散步。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
And so it's a very low dose, and I'm not necessarily saying go drug your dogs, but I'm just saying that the story that I've heard is that you get this period of plasticity where you can kind of-
所以这是一个非常低的剂量，我不一定是说给你的狗用药，但我只是说，我听到的故事是，你会经历一段可塑性时期，你可以-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
...
...
rewrite some of these behavioral patterns and make them more open to training and so forth.
重写其中一些行为模式，使他们更愿意接受培训等。
And so it doesn't even have to be a permanent thing, right?
所以它甚至不必是永久性的，对吧？
And I think a lot of these things, like you're talking about learned helplessness studies, probably transient effects of not being on it for years or something.
我认为很多这样的事情，就像你谈论的习得性无助研究，可能是多年不参与研究的短暂影响或其他什么。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
But it's not very effective in terms of SSRIs.
但对于 SSRIs 来说效果不是很好。
But psilocybin and psychedelics have shown a lot of promise as being bigger effects.
但裸盖菇素和迷幻药已经显示出很大的效果，因为它们具有更大的效果。
And these produce massive plasticity.
这些产生巨大的可塑性。
There's two things I think that are really interesting about it.
我认为有两件事非常有趣。
So my neighbor, by the way, Davis, I will just say I'm biased, but it's one of the top three places in the world for learning and memory research .
所以我的邻居，顺便说一句，戴维斯，我只想说我有偏见，但它是世界上学习和记忆研究的前三名之一。
So my next-door neighbor, David Olson, it turns out, is studying psychedelic effects on plasticity.
事实证明，我的隔壁邻居大卫·奥尔森正在研究迷幻剂对可塑性的影响。
And so he really emphasizes that there's just these massive neurotrophic factors, BDNF, all these factors that are going on that are promoting plasticity.
所以他确实强调，只有这些大量的神经营养因子，BDNF，所有这些正在发生的因素都在促进可塑性。
And for people who've taken them, that's what they report, is that there's this period of integration afterwards where your brain's just like, you can feel it.
对于服用过它们的人来说，这就是他们的报告，之后有一段整合期，你的大脑就像，你可以感觉到它。
Everything's-
一切都是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You change.
你改变。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
You change, yeah.
你改变了，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You change.
你改变。
If the integration is guided properly.
如果整合引导得当。
One thing that I do want to make sure I highlight, and it's not just for public safety reasons, although that as well, is that people are so intrigued by the idea of quote-unquote, "opening plasticity." Plasticity is just an opportunity for learning new contingencies.
我确实想强调的一件事是，人们对“开放可塑性”的想法如此感兴趣，这不仅仅是出于公共安全原因。可塑性只是一个学习新突发事件的机会。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
Just taking psychedelics is an experience, certainly, but the learning of new contingencies occurs in the integration phase as well as within the session.
当然，仅仅服用迷幻药就是一种体验，但是新的意外情况的学习发生在整合阶段以及课程中。
That's why the clinical trials that showed some efficacy for some people were guided intensely by therapists.
这就是为什么对某些人显示出一定疗效的临床试验受到治疗师的大力指导。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But the mere act of having plasticity, plasticity is an opportunity for learning.
但仅仅具有可塑性的行为，可塑性就是一个学习的机会。
It's not the actual learning.
这并不是真正的学习。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
That's right.
没错。
It opens up significant opportunities for reshaping.
它为重塑提供了重要的机会。
But the second part of it, which maybe I think is really interesting, is there is also a dissociative element of these drugs.
但它的第二部分，也许我认为真的很有趣，是这些药物也有一种解离元素。
So ketamine isn't a psychedelic, but I think there are some interesting plasticity effects, and definitely it produces this dissociative element, too.
所以氯胺酮不是迷幻剂，但我认为有一些有趣的可塑性效应，而且它肯定也会产生这种解离元素。
But with psychedelics, there's often a major perspective shift.
但对于迷幻药来说，往往会发生重大的视角转变。
And perspective is hugely important for memory, because a lot of our sense of the emotional impact of our memory is based on a perspective that we adopt when we remember.
视角对于记忆来说非常重要，因为我们对记忆的情感影响的很多感觉都是基于我们记忆时所采用的视角。
And research has shown that you can take the same encoding event, meaning like I tell you a story, let's just take a very simple thing.
研究表明，您可以采取相同的编码事件，这意味着就像我给您讲一个故事一样，让我们采取一个非常简单的事情。
I give you a story, and it's like I tell you now viewed from the perspective of someone else, and you're trying to remember it.
我给你一个故事，就像我现在从别人的角度来看你，而你试图记住它。
You can remember things that you didn't remember the first time around.
您可以记住第一次不记得的事情。
Changing your perspective can literally change what you remember.
改变你的观点确实可以改变你的记忆。
It can also change the narrative that you produce.
它还可以改变您制作的叙述。
So now let's say you pull up this traumatic memory, but you're viewing it from the outside, and you're feeling your heart's racing, your eyes are dilating.
现在假设你调出了这段创伤记忆，但你是从外部观看它，你感觉你的心跳加速，你的眼睛在扩张。
There's these crazy effects from psychedelic, but you're seeing it, and it's not you.
迷幻剂有这些疯狂的效果，但你看到了它，但那不是你。
There's some deeper self you're feeling, whether it's true or not.
你感受到了一些更深层的自我，无论它是真是假。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or you have a sense of agency in there.
或者你在那里有一种代理感。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Some of the psychedelics, I've never tried this one, but there are interesting studies of ibogaine, iboga, where the universal experience, as I understand, is that it's 22 hours long.
有些迷幻药，我从来没有尝试过这个，但是有一些关于伊博加因（ibogaine）的有趣研究，据我所知，普遍的经验是它的持续时间为 22 小时。
It's actually a cardiovascular risk.
这实际上是心血管风险。
There's some things that need to be offset there, so don't run out and do this, folks.
有些事情需要在那里抵消，所以不要跑出去这样做，伙计们。
But people, I'm told, get a high-definition movie of specific events in their life that actually happened, only when they close their eyes.
但据我所知，人们只有在闭上眼睛时才能看到一部关于他们生活中实际发生的特定事件的高清电影。
So no hallucinating with eyes open.
所以睁着眼睛不会产生幻觉。
Interesting.
有趣的。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then they have agency within those movies.
然后他们在这些电影中拥有代理权。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And once they exact the change they wanted to have, it rotates like a cube.
一旦他们精确地做出了他们想要的改变，它就会像立方体一样旋转。
Very interesting, perhaps, to a memory researcher, why this would be.
对于记忆研究人员来说，这可能非常有趣，为什么会这样。
And then they get another event of past where they have agency in that event.
然后他们得到另一个过去的事件，他们在该事件中拥有代理权。
Incredible.
极好的。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
There's so much that we don't know.
有太多我们不知道的事情。
And I will say that some of the psychedelic stuff is overhyped, and some of the science is quite bad in that field right now.
我要说的是，有些迷幻的东西被夸大了，而目前该领域的一些科学知识相当糟糕。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
A number of papers are being retracted now.
目前已有多篇论文被撤回。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
I do think that some of the concerns they had in the FDA, I take issue with.
我确实认为 FDA 提出的一些担忧我确实有异议。
But what I will say is that you have a drug that dramatically increases plasticity, but it changes dramatically the mental context that you have when you pull up the memory.
但我要说的是，你有一种药物可以显着增加可塑性，但它会极大地改变你拉起记忆时的心理环境。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
So you have a real opportunity for memory updating.
所以你有一个真正的内存更新机会。
Now, there's a phenomenon in the animal literature called reconsolidation.
现在，动物文献中有一种现象称为再巩固。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Where essentially the act of retrieving a memory opens it up to requiring some kinds of neuromodulators, again, to really promote resealing of the memory, so to speak.
可以说，检索记忆的行为本质上需要某种神经调节剂来真正促进记忆的重新密封。
But it can also, if you interrupt it, you can erase the memories.
但它也可以，如果你打断它，你就可以抹掉记忆。
And theoretically, if you can do that, you could also change the memories pretty significantly.
理论上，如果你能做到这一点，你也可以显着改变记忆。
So if I can vividly access some neural population that's normally gives me this physiological response, it sets off this train of thoughts, and it's associated with this physical and mental context, and I can access those neurons, but dramatically reshape the context and dramatically reshape the narrative, I've created the opportunity for massive change.
因此，如果我能够生动地访问一些通常会给我这种生理反应的神经群体，它会引发一系列思维，并且它与这种身体和精神背景相关联，我可以访问这些神经元，但极大地重塑背景并极大地重塑叙述，我已经创造了巨大改变的机会。
And I don't know if that's true, but it sure makes sense to me that that's the case.
我不知道这是否属实，但对我来说，事实确实如此。
Now, having said that, if you and me share our traumatic elements of our childhood, I'm sure we could go out for drinks and do this for quite a few hours, right?
现在，话虽如此，如果你和我分享我们童年时的创伤因素，我相信我们可以出去喝酒并持续几个小时，对吗？
That in and of itself will also produce some change in our memories.
这本身也会对我们的记忆产生一些变化。
It's very powerful.
它非常强大。
And I saw this in the clinic where I was doing group therapy with Vietnam vets, and I'm like, "I'm a total fraud." I'm like, I don't know, 27 years old, 28 years old, and I'm in with these Vietnam vets in their 50s who've really seen stuff, and they live in combat zones now in Chicago.
我在诊所与越南退伍军人进行团体治疗时看到了这一点，我想，“我完全是个骗子。”我想，我不知道，27 岁，28 岁，我和这些 50 多岁的越战老兵在一起，他们真的见过很多东西，他们现在住在芝加哥的战区。
And what I realized was everyone was telling their story But they're hearing reflections of their story from me, but also from other members of the group who they can relate to that are different from their narrative.
我意识到每个人都在讲述他们的故事，但他们不仅从我那里听到了对他们故事的反映，而且还从小组中的其他成员那里听到了他们的故事，这些成员与他们的叙述不同。
And now all of a sudden, what happens is the memory is no longer theirs.
现在突然间，记忆不再属于他们了。
It's a collective memory that's shared by all these people.
这是所有这些人共享的集体记忆。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Because the memory now incorporates elements of their reactions as well.
因为记忆现在也包含了他们反应的元素。
It allows people to remember it in a new context, right?
它可以让人们在新的语境中记住它，对吧？
And we can just take a much more watered-down version of this where how many times have you had a terrible experience and it became a great story?
我们可以采取一个更加淡化的版本，你有多少次经历过可怕的经历，但它变成了一个伟大的故事？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
I basically say that there's no point in having a bad experience in life if you don't get a great story out of it, right?
我基本上是说，如果你不能从中得到一个精彩的故事，那么在生活中经历糟糕的经历就没有意义，对吧？
So I talk in the book about a near-death experience I had paddleboarding, and everything about this was stupid.
所以我在书中谈到了我玩桨板的一次濒死经历，而这一切都很愚蠢。
I could send you pictures of it, and you'd be like, "Oh my God, what was he thinking?"
我可以给你发照片，你会说，“天哪，他在想什么？”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, I've made foolish errors in outdoor adventures in my past-
是的，我过去在户外探险中犯过愚蠢的错误——
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
where afterwards I thought that was a really dumb move to even go to that location to dive, let alone what we did when we-
后来我觉得去那个地方潜水真是一个愚蠢的举动，更不用说我们做了什么——
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Mm
毫米
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
did there.
在那里做的。
Some of the stupid stuff that we did, and as kids, like bridge jumps and without testing water depth, stupid stuff-
我们小时候做过的一些愚蠢的事情，比如跳桥，没有测试水深，愚蠢的事情——
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that I don't recommend anyone repeat.
我不建议任何人重复。
But you're right.
但你是对的。
The surviving stories, you carry those forward.
幸存的故事，你将它们发扬光大。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yeah, exactly.
是的，完全正确。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The problem is the other stories, we can talk about people who are paralyzed, dead, et cetera.
问题是其他故事，我们可以谈论瘫痪的人、死亡的人等等。
Those stories exist, too.
这些故事也存在。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
To be clear, I felt horrible during that experience, and it was one of the most immediately fear-inducing experiences I've had.
需要明确的是，在那次经历中我感觉很可怕，这是我经历过的最直接引起恐惧的经历之一。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
But later, me and Randy O'Reilly, the computational neuroscience, we're friends.
但后来，我和计算神经科学领域的兰迪·奥莱利 (Randy O'Reilly) 成为了朋友。
We both did this stupid thing together.
我们俩一起做了这件蠢事。
We would tell this story, tag-team it, and we told it to students and friends and so forth, and it just became funny.
我们会讲这个故事，把它组合起来，然后告诉学生和朋友等等，它就变得很有趣。
And so each time we told it, it just became funnier and funnier, and you start to embellish things and so forth.
所以每次我们讲述它时，它就变得越来越有趣，你开始修饰事情等等。
And so that change of perspective was really drawn out by sharing and seeing people laugh and seeing people like, "What were you thinking?
因此，观点的改变是通过分享、看到人们笑、看到人们这样说的：“你在想什么？
You're such a smart person, and you did this." And it becomes part of the narrative.
你真是个聪明人，竟然做到了这一点。”它成为叙述的一部分。
And keep in mind, there are people who do this, that they say, like, "I've had a really traumatic experience, but I've learned from it.
请记住，有些人这样做，他们说，“我有过一次非常痛苦的经历，但我从中吸取了教训。
I've had a horrible, emotionally abusive relationship, but I've learned from it." Right?
我曾经有过一段可怕的、情感虐待的关系，但我从中吸取了教训。”正确的？
And I don't mean to trivialize anybody's experience who didn't have that thing, and they're just traumatized by it, and they carry it with them.
我并不是要轻视那些没有经历过那件事的人的经历，他们只是受到了创伤，并且随身带着它。
But what I am saying is that the memory, so to speak, I think in neuroscience right now, there's a big hot topic about engrams, as if a bunch of neurons is the memory.
但我想说的是，记忆，可以这么说，我认为现在在神经科学中，有一个关于印迹的大热门话题，好像一堆神经元就是记忆。
But every time we have a memory, we're painting a new picture.
但每当我们有了记忆，我们就在描绘一幅新的图画。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
We're creating a new novel.
我们正在创作一本新小说。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, and I think this is where people have to be very careful not to cowboy post-traumatic stress disorder treatment in a way that allows the narrative to make it worse.
嗯，我认为人们必须非常小心，不要以一种让叙述变得更糟的方式进行牛仔创伤后应激障碍治疗。
Because a previous guest on this podcast has this notion, in describing this, of story fondling, where people can go further and further into the description of how terrible something is, reinforced by others, and then the memory changes to become much worse-
因为这个播客的前一位嘉宾有这样一个概念，在描述这一点时，故事抚摸，人们可以越来越深入地描述某件事有多么可怕，并得到其他人的强化，然后记忆变得更糟——
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
than either the real events were or just simply worse within their body and mind, and then they have to live that forward.
比真实的事件更糟糕，或者只是在他们的身体和思想中更糟糕，然后他们必须继续生活。
So it can go both ways, which really points to the key, which is to do this with really trained professionals.
所以它可以是双向的，这确实指出了关键，那就是由真正训练有素的专业人员来做这件事。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
And it's all about-- Because you can re-traumatize yourself, and this is also why rumination is so bad in depression, is because you recall a negative memory, and that gets you in a negative mood because you pull up the context, and then that makes it easier to recall more negative memories.
这就是——因为你可以重新伤害自己，这也是为什么沉思在抑郁症中如此糟糕的原因，因为你回忆起负面记忆，这会让你陷入负面情绪，因为你拉起背景，然后更容易回忆起更多负面记忆。
And then every time you recall them, now they're getting more power because they're associated with these negative moods.
然后每次你回忆起它们时，它们就会获得更多的力量，因为它们与这些负面情绪有关。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So recollection is really a double-edged blade.
所以回忆确实是一把双刃剑。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
So if you take something like reminiscence or nostalgia.
所以如果你怀念或怀旧之类的东西。
So the original term nostalgia, I credit Felipe de Brigard, he's a philosopher and neuroscientist.
所以最初的术语“怀旧”，我归功于 Felipe de Brigard，他是一位哲学家和神经科学家。
He told me that nostalgia used to be a term for a disease that was coined by a Swiss physician.
他告诉我，怀旧曾经是一位瑞士医生创造的一种疾病的术语。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
And he used it to talk about a kind of post-traumatic experience that soldiers had where they would get so wistful about their home that it just made them miserable in the places that they were at.
他用它来谈论士兵们经历的一种创伤后经历，他们对自己的家如此渴望，以至于让他们在自己所在的地方感到痛苦。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's been referred to as the pain of an old wound.
它被称为旧伤的疼痛。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yeah, exactly.
是的，完全正确。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I didn't say that, someone else.
这话不是我说的，是别人说的。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
The research shows it can have very positive effects on mental health, right?
研究表明它可以对心理健康产生非常积极的影响，对吧？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
And it can have positive effects on mental health if you use that as a way of saying, "Hey, this is just a great thing that's happened.
如果你用它来表达，“嘿，这只是发生的一件伟大的事情，它会对心理健康产生积极的影响。
I'm grateful for that." But it can become toxic if you're like, "My life used to be so great, and now it's terrible." Even if it's positive reminiscence, if you come into it with the wrong attributions-
我对此很感激。”但如果你想，“我的生活曾经如此美好，现在却很糟糕”，它就会变得有毒。即使是积极的回忆，如果你以错误的归因进入它——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
...
...
it can become negative and toxic, and it can contaminate your present, right?
它会变得负面和有毒，它会污染你的礼物，对吗？
The past has got good, and it's got bad in it, just like the present has got good, and it's got bad in it.
过去有好的，也有坏的，就像现在有好的，也有坏的。
And it's really all about what are the narratives you're constructing for it in many ways, and that plays a big part in the dynamic, malleable, constantly shape-shifting nature of memory.
这实际上取决于你以多种方式为其构建的叙述是什么，这在记忆的动态、可塑性、不断变形的本质中发挥着重要作用。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Incredible.
难以置信。
I want to make sure that we talk about something, at first glance, very different than all of this, but it lands squarely in the conversation we've had until now, which is your love for and your participation in rock 'n' roll.
我想确保我们谈论的东西乍一看与所有这些都非常不同，但它正好落在我们迄今为止的对话中，那就是你对摇滚乐的热爱和参与。
You have a band Right.
你有一个乐队吧。
Pavlov's Dogs.
巴甫洛夫的狗。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yep.
是的。
I actually have a couple bands now, thankfully, so.
谢天谢地，我现在实际上有几个乐队。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What are the other ones called?
其他的叫什么？
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Well, so Pavlov's Dogs, I'll say first, is a band of neuroscientists and psychologists, well, neuroscientists who met, actually, most of us met at a memory meeting, actually.
嗯，所以巴甫洛夫的狗，我首先要说的是，是一群神经科学家和心理学家，嗯，神经科学家实际上是在一次记忆会议上认识的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
And so, we get together at conferences, and we'll rent out a club, and we'll play basically, Brad calls it skinny tie music.
因此，我们在会议上聚在一起，我们会租一个俱乐部，我们会基本上演奏，布拉德称之为“瘦领带音乐”。
It's like-
这就像——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is it original music or covers?
是原创音乐还是翻唱音乐？
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Covers.
封面。
That one's a cover band.
那是一个翻唱乐队。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Covers.
封面。
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
And so, we'll play the Ramones, The Clash, Gang of Four.
因此，我们将扮演《雷蒙斯》、《冲突》、《四人帮》。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Great.
太棒了。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
It's a lot of we're-- We added Blondie and-
我们有很多——我们添加了金发女郎并且——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
She's still touring.
她还在巡演。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
She's amazing, isn't she?
她很了不起，不是吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, a friend of mine went on tour with her.
是的，我的一个朋友和她一起去巡演。
Yeah, there's a band called-
是的，有一个乐队叫——
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
She looks great, too
她看起来也很棒
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
Surfboard.
冲浪板。
Surfboard was on tour with Blondie.
冲浪板与金发女郎一起巡演。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Oh, sorry, I know them.
哦，抱歉，我认识他们。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Oh, that's a friend of yours, yeah.
哦，那是你的朋友，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, Danny from Surfboard know.
是的，冲浪板的丹尼知道。
Yeah, great band, and she toured with Blondie.
是的，很棒的乐队，她和 Blondie 一起巡演。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Oh.
哦。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Blondie's amazing.
金发女郎太棒了。
She's still super vivacious.
她还是超级活泼的。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
As is Surfboard, and Danny.
冲浪板和丹尼也是如此。
What instrument do you play?
你演奏什么乐器？
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
I play guitar, and I also do vocals.
我弹吉他，也弹声乐。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Lead vocals?
主唱？
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Or yeah.
或者是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
And-
还有——
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Reluctant, because sometimes it's talking or being off-key, but yeah.
不情愿，因为有时会说话或走调，但是是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Can people find links to any Pavlov's Dog live shows or recordings online?
人们可以在线找到任何巴甫洛夫的狗现场表演或录音的链接吗？
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
I think we have some recordings on YouTube, and if you look on our Facebook page, maybe our Instagram, too, we have live recordings.
我想我们在 YouTube 上有一些录音，如果你看看我们的 Facebook 页面，也许我们的 Instagram 也有，我们有现场录音。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And you have a show coming up.
还有一场演出即将上演。
We'll put a link to that.
我们将放置一个链接。
Because people will listen to this long after that, presumably, but that's coming up in Chicago on October...
因为人们大概会在那之后很长一段时间内听到这个，但这将于十月在芝加哥出现......
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
I think it's the 7th.
我认为这是第七个。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
5th?
第五？
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Is it a Mon-- It's the Monday.
今天是星期一吗——这是星期一。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, we'll put a link to that.
是的，我们会放一个链接。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Sorry, I-
抱歉，我-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But-
但是——
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
It's at a show-
这是在一场演出中——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But for those that can't make it, because most of us aren't in Chicago, including me, unfortunately, we'll keep an eye out for Pavlov's Dogs.
但对于那些无法成功的人，因为我们大多数人都不在芝加哥，包括我在内，不幸的是，我们会留意巴甫洛夫的狗。
I love that you play music, and I just have, for sake of time, one question about your love for rock and roll and playing music.
我喜欢你演奏音乐，由于时间关系，我只想问一个问题，关于你对摇滚乐和演奏音乐的热爱。
When you're playing rock and roll live, are you thinking about anything else?
当你现场演奏摇滚乐时，你会考虑其他事情吗？
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Sometimes, and that's when I suck.
有时，那就是我很糟糕的时候。
Actually, one hack that I came up with, because it's like with the cover band, we practice, we cram.
事实上，这是我想出的一个技巧，因为就像翻唱乐队一样，我们练习，我们死记硬背。
It's the worst thing.
这是最糟糕的事情。
It's not spaced learning.
这不是间隔学习。
It's like we go through the songs, and we keep adding and taking away songs, but it's like we'll cram for, I don't know, about eight hours of practices over three days or something.
就像我们浏览歌曲，不断添加和删除歌曲，但这就像我们会在三天内临时抱佛脚，进行大约八个小时的练习，或者其他什么。
And so, for me, it's like a constant memory thing because my brain doesn't want to play covers.
所以，对我来说，这就像一个持续的记忆，因为我的大脑不想翻唱。
It wants to play the songs that I've written.
它想播放我写的歌曲。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
And so there's always a memory thing.
所以总是有记忆的事情。
And then I get nervous.
然后我就紧张了。
I get really nervous, and so I move a lot, and then that distracts, and then I'll see friends, and that kills me, because then I start thinking, "What are they thinking?" And so I started, last show I did with Pavlov's Dogs, I wore sunglasses, and it was great.
我真的很紧张，所以我经常移动，然后这会分散我的注意力，然后我会见到朋友，这会杀了我，因为然后我开始思考，“他们在想什么？”所以我开始了，我在《巴甫洛夫的狗》的最后一场演出中，我戴上了墨镜，非常棒。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh.
哦。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Because then I wasn't attuned to them, and it just goes back to what we were talking about with the camera and stuff.
因为那时我对它们不太适应，这又回到了我们谈论相机之类的事情。
I was feeling it, and I was thinking.
我感觉到了，我也在思考。
I was in the flow, in the zone, and feeling it and doing it and not thinking about it.
我沉浸在心流中，沉浸在状态中，感受它，做它，而不去思考它。
And there's a whole interesting literature, choking under pressure, that actually relates to this idea of sometimes having too much cognitive control going on is really bad-
有很多有趣的文献，在压力下令人窒息，实际上与这种想法有关，即有时进行过多的认知控制确实很糟糕——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
...
...
when you're under stress, and if you know something fairly well, you're going to be better off if you just go into an automatic state.
当你承受压力时，如果你对某件事相当了解，那么进入自动状态会更好。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I love that.
我喜欢那个。
When I do live shows, I like to have the house lights relatively dim.
当我进行现场表演时，我喜欢让室内灯光相对较暗。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I don't want to see anybody at first.
一开始我不想见任何人。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then as I get more comfortable, I'm happy to have the house lights come up, because you get-
然后当我变得更舒服时，我很高兴房子的灯亮起来，因为你会——
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Oh, what do you play?
哦，你玩什么？
I didn't know you played.
我不知道你玩过。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, I don't play anything.
哦，我什么都不玩。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Oh.
哦。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I do live events where I talk about science-
我举办现场活动，谈论科学——
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Oh, yeah
哦，是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
where I tell stories about-
我在那里讲故事——
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Oh, that's kind of performing
哦，这就是表演
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
science and scientists.
科学和科学家。
Okay, a couple of things are right in the front of my mind, and I'd be remiss if I didn't say them right now.
好吧，有几件事就在我的脑海中，如果我现在不说出来，那就是我的失职。
First of all, it's absolutely clear that we need to get you back here for more discussion about memory and learning.
首先，很明显我们需要让您回到这里来进行更多有关记忆和学习的讨论。
There's just so much that we didn't have the opportunity to cover in this conversation, but we most certainly will in a future conversation.
我们没有机会在这次对话中讨论很多内容，但我们肯定会在以后的对话中讨论。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
We didn't bring up the turkeys of Davis.
我们没有提到戴维斯的火鸡。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, we didn't.
不，我们没有。
Second of all, I want to thank you for writing your book, "Why We Remember," because it's a fantastic exploration of the modern understanding of memory.
其次，我要感谢您写了《我们为何记住》一书，因为它是对现代记忆理解的精彩探索。
Still some of the mysteries that remain, but this is a field that's evolved a lot, and you capture so much of the incredible findings there over the years in a very pleasurable way.
仍然有一些谜团仍然存在，但这是一个已经发展了很多的领域，多年来你以一种非常愉快的方式捕捉到了许多令人难以置信的发现。
So, it's a pleasure to read.
所以，阅读是一种乐趣。
And then I also want to thank you for coming here today to share with us your understanding about memory and also your sharing of your experience with ADHD and some of the tools you use, some of the struggles.
然后我还要感谢您今天来到这里与我们分享您对记忆的理解，以及您分享的多动症经验以及您使用的一些工具和一些挣扎。
I think all too often, people hear about these scientists or physicians or people who are authorities on a topic, and they don't hear about the challenges they face.
我认为，人们常常听说这些科学家、医生或某个话题的权威人士，却没有听说他们面临的挑战。
And I assure you that a great, great many people will appreciate the fact that you yourself have struggled with certain issues related to attention, but that you've overcome them at least as well to be able to be a functional parent and family man, professor, author, now public educator, dog owner- ...
我向你保证，很多很多人都会欣赏你自己曾在某些与注意力相关的问题上挣扎过的事实，但你至少已经克服了这些问题，能够成为一个有能力的父母和家庭男人、教授、作家、现在的公共教育家、狗主人……
second time around, and for that and for a great many other reasons, you've educated us, and you've given us a great many practical tools.
第二次，出于这个原因以及许多其他原因，您教育了我们，并且给了我们很多实用的工具。
It's also great to see you as a fellow punk rocker and old friend, and I even let you call me Andy, so thank you.
很高兴看到你成为朋克摇滚歌手和老朋友，我什至让你叫我安迪，所以谢谢你。
So, thanks for coming here today, and please do come back again, Charan.
所以，感谢您今天来到这里，请再次回来，查兰。
Dr. Charan Ranganath:
查兰·兰加纳特博士：
Oh, I would love to.
哦，我很乐意。
Thank you, Andrew.
谢谢你，安德鲁。
It's just been great to be here.
来到这里真是太好了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thank you for joining me for today's discussion about memory and ADHD with Dr. Charan Ranganath.
感谢您今天与 Charan Ranganath 博士一起讨论记忆和多动症。
To learn more about his work and to find a link to his book, as well as social media accounts, please see the links in the show note captions.
要了解有关他的作品的更多信息并找到他的书的链接以及社交媒体帐户，请参阅节目注释标题中的链接。
If you're learning from and/or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel.
如果您正在学习和/或喜欢此播客，请订阅我们的 YouTube 频道。
That's a terrific zero-cost way to support us.
这是支持我们的绝佳零成本方式。
In addition, please subscribe to the podcast on both Spotify and Apple.
此外，请在 Spotify 和 Apple 上订阅该播客。
And on both Spotify and Apple, you can leave us up to a five-star review.
在 Spotify 和 Apple 上，您都可以给我们五星级的评价。
Please check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode.
请查看今天节目开头和整个节目中提到的赞助商。
That's the best way to support this podcast.
这是支持这个播客的最佳方式。
If you have questions for me or comments about the podcast or guests or topics that you'd like me to consider for the Huberman Lab podcast, please put those in the comment section on YouTube.
如果您对我有疑问，或者对播客或嘉宾有意见，或者您希望我为 Huberman Lab 播客考虑的主题，请在 YouTube 上的评论部分留言。
I do read all the comments.
我确实阅读了所有评论。
For those of you that haven't heard, I have a new book coming out.
对于那些还没有听说过的人，我即将出版一本新书。
It's my very first book.
这是我的第一本书。
It's entitled "Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body." This is a book that I've been working on for more than five years, and that's based on more than 30 years of research and experience, and it covers protocols for everything from sleep to exercise to stress control, protocols related to focus and motivation, and of course, I provide the scientific substantiation for the protocols that are included.
它的标题是“协议：人体操作手册”。这是我花了五年多时间编写的一本书，它基于 30 多年的研究和经验，涵盖了从睡眠到运动到压力控制的各个方面的方案，以及与注意力和动机相关的方案，当然，我还为所包含的方案提供了科学依据。
The book is now available by presale at protocolsbook.com.
该书现已在protocolbook.com 上预售。
There you can find links to various vendors.
在那里您可以找到各个供应商的链接。
You can pick the one that you like best.
您可以选择您最喜欢的一个。
Again, the book is called "Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body." If you're not already following me on social media, I am Huberman Lab on all social media platforms.
同样，这本书的名字是“协议：人体操作手册”。如果您还没有在社交媒体上关注我，我是所有社交媒体平台上的 Huberman Lab。
So that's Instagram, X, formerly known as Twitter, Threads, Facebook, and LinkedIn.
这就是 Instagram、X，以前称为 Twitter、Threads、Facebook 和 LinkedIn。
And on all those platforms, I discuss science and science-related tools, some of which overlaps with the content of the Huberman Lab podcast, but much of which is distinct from the content on the Huberman Lab podcast.
在所有这些平台上，我讨论科学和与科学相关的工具，其中一些与胡伯曼实验室播客的内容重叠，但其中大部分与胡伯曼实验室播客的内容不同。
Again, that's Huberman Lab on all social media channels.
同样，这是所有社交媒体渠道上的 Huberman Lab。
If you haven't already subscribed to our Neural Network Newsletter, our Neural Network Newsletter is a zero-cost monthly newsletter that includes podcast summaries as well as protocols in the form of brief one to three-page PDFs.
如果您还没有订阅我们的神经网络新闻通讯，我们的神经网络新闻通讯是一份零成本的每月新闻通讯，其中包括播客摘要以及简短的一到三页 PDF 形式的协议。
Those protocol PDFs are on things like neuroplasticity and learning, optimizing dopamine, improving your sleep, deliberate cold exposure, deliberate heat exposure.
这些 PDF 协议涉及神经可塑性和学习、优化多巴胺、改善睡眠、刻意冷暴露、刻意热暴露等内容。
We have a foundational fitness protocol that describes a template routine that includes cardiovascular training and resistance training with sets and reps, all backed by science, and all of which, again, is completely zero cost.
我们有一个基本的健身协议，描述了一个模板程序，其中包括心血管训练和阻力训练（包括组数和次数），所有这些都有科学支持，而且所有这些都是完全零成本的。
To subscribe, simply go to hubermanlab.com, go to the menu tab up in the upper right corner, scroll down to newsletter, and provide your email, and I should emphasize that we do not share your email with anybody.
要订阅，只需访问 hubermanlab.com，转到右上角的菜单选项卡，向下滚动到时事通讯，然后提供您的电子邮件，我要强调的是，我们不会与任何人分享您的电子邮件。
Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Charan Ranganath.
再次感谢您参加今天与 Charan Ranganath 博士的讨论。
And last but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.
最后但并非最不重要的一点是，感谢您对科学的兴趣。