Dr. Casey Means: Transform Your Health by Improving Metabolism, Hormone & Blood Sugar Regulation

Andrew Huberman: Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.

Andrew Huberman：欢迎来到 Huberman 实验室播客，我们在这里讨论科学和基于科学的日常生活工具。

I'm Andrew Huberman and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.

我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。

My guest today is Dr. Casey Means.

今天我的客人是凯西·米恩斯博士。

Dr. Casey Means did her undergraduate degree at Stanford University and her medical degree at Stanford University School of Medicine.

Casey Means 博士在斯坦福大学获得本科学位，在斯坦福大学医学院获得医学学位。

She is one of the world's foremost experts in metabolic health.

她是世界上最重要的代谢健康专家之一。

Today we discuss how metabolic function and dysfunction impacts our health.

今天我们讨论代谢功能和功能障碍如何影响我们的健康。

In particular, we discuss mitochondria, which are involved in energy production within our cells, and the various things that we can each and all do to ensure proper mitochondrial function, which is essential not just for things like body composition and physical and mental energy, but also our ability to regulate hormones, blood sugar and much more.

我们特别讨论了线粒体，它参与细胞内的能量产生，以及我们每个人可以做的各种事情来确保线粒体的正常功能，这不仅对于身体成分和身心能量等至关重要，而且对于我们调节激素、血糖等的能力也至关重要。

We discuss how exercise, even simple exercise like walking, as well as sleep, as well as more vigorous exercise, and, in particular, nutrition, including the types of foods we eat, the timing of food intake, and the sources and quality of those foods, impact our mitochondria and other aspects of metabolic function.

我们讨论运动，即使是简单的运动，如散步，以及睡眠，以及更剧烈的运动，特别是营养，包括我们吃的食物类型、食物摄入的时间以及这些食物的来源和质量，如何影响我们的线粒体和代谢功能的其他方面。

We also discuss how particular micronutrients within specific foods can directly impact mitochondrial and metabolic health.

我们还讨论了特定食物中的特定微量营养素如何直接影响线粒体和代谢健康。

Dr. Means explains how mitochondria, inflammation and reactive oxygen species, which are the byproducts of metabolism in our cells, can combine to create conditions of obesity, as well as ways that we can manage those things, or even reverse mitochondrial inflammation and reactive oxygen species dysfunction in order to reverse obesity, reverse diabetes, and enhance our health in myriad ways.

米恩斯博士解释了线粒体、炎症和活性氧（细胞代谢的副产品）如何结合起来造成肥胖的条件，以及我们可以管理这些因素的方法，甚至逆转线粒体炎症和活性氧功能障碍，从而以多种方式逆转肥胖、逆转糖尿病和增强我们的健康。

By the end of today's discussion, you'll have a clear picture of the cellular processes that occur in the brain and body that underlie metabolic disease and metabolic health.

在今天的讨论结束时，您将清楚地了解大脑和身体中发生的代谢疾病和代谢健康的细胞过程。

And most importantly, you'll have a very clear picture of the actionable items that we can each and all carry out every day and every week in order to ensure metabolic health, proper mitochondrial function, and indeed that can also impact body composition and overall feelings of well-being.

最重要的是，您将非常清楚地了解我们每天和每周可以执行的可操作项目，以确保新陈代谢健康、线粒体功能正常，而且这实际上也会影响身体成分和整体幸福感。

I would also like to share that Dr. Casey Means has a terrific new book coming out.

我还想告诉大家，凯西·米恩斯博士即将出版一本很棒的新书。

I know it's terrific because I've read it.

我知道它很棒，因为我读过它。

It is entitled "Good Energy: The Surprising Connection Between Metabolism and Limitless Health." If you're interested in the book, we provided a link to the book in the show note captions.

它的标题是“良好的能量：新陈代谢和无限健康之间的惊人联系”。如果您对这本书感兴趣，我们在显示注释标题中提供了该书的链接。

Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.

在开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。

It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero-cost-to-consumer information about science and science related tools to the general public.

然而，我的愿望和努力的一部分是将有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本消费者信息带给公众。

In keeping with that theme, I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast.

为了与这个主题保持一致，我要感谢今天播客的赞助商。

Our first sponsor is Maui Nui Venison.

我们的第一个赞助商是 Maui Nui Venison。

Maui Nui Venison is the most nutrient-dense and delicious red meat available.

毛伊努伊鹿肉是营养最丰富、最美味的红肉。

I've spoken before on this podcast and with several expert guests on this podcast about the fact that most of us should be seeking to get about 1 gram of quality protein per pound of body weight every day.

我之前曾在这个播客上和这个播客上的几位专家嘉宾谈过这样一个事实：我们大多数人应该寻求每天每磅体重获取约 1 克优质蛋白质。

Not only does that protein provide critical building blocks for things like muscle repair and synthesis, but also for overall metabolism and health.

这种蛋白质不仅为肌肉修复和合成等提供了关键的组成部分，而且还为整体新陈代谢和健康提供了关键的组成部分。

Eating enough quality protein each day is also a terrific way to stave off hunger.

每天吃足够的优质蛋白质也是消除饥饿的好方法。

One of the key things, however, is to make sure that you're getting enough quality protein without ingesting excess calories.

然而，关键的事情之一是确保您获得足够的优质蛋白质而不摄入过多的热量。

Maui Nui Venison has an extremely high-quality-protein-per-calorie ratio, such that getting 1 gram of protein per pound of body weight is both easy and doesn't cause you to ingest an excess of calories.

Maui Nui 鹿肉的每卡路里蛋白质含量极高，每磅体重获取 1 克蛋白质既容易又不会导致您摄入过量卡路里。

Also, Maui Nui Venison is absolutely delicious.

另外，茂宜岛鹿肉绝对美味。

They have venison steaks, they have ground venison and they have venison bone broth.

他们有鹿肉排、鹿肉末和鹿骨汤。

I personally like all of those.

我个人喜欢所有这些。

In fact, I probably eat a Maui Nui Venison burger pretty much every day, and occasionally I'll swap that for a Maui Nui steak.

事实上，我可能几乎每天都会吃毛伊努伊鹿肉汉堡，偶尔我会把它换成毛伊努伊牛排。

And if you're really on the go, they have Maui Nui Venison jerky which has 10 grams of protein per stick at just 55 calories.

如果您真的很忙，他们还有毛伊努伊鹿肉干，每棒含有 10 克蛋白质，热量仅为 55 卡路里。

If you'd like to try Maui Nui Venison, you can go to mauinuivenison.com/huberman to get 20% off your first order.

如果您想尝试 Maui Nui 鹿肉，您可以访问 mauinuivenison.com/huberman 享受首单 20% 的折扣。

Again, that's mauinuivenison.com/huberman.

同样，这是 mauinuivenison.com/huberman。

Today's episode is also brought to us by Eight Sleep.

今天的节目也是八觉给我们带来的。

Eight Sleep makes smart mattress covers with cooling, heating and sleep-tracking capacity.

八睡眠公司生产具有冷却、加热和睡眠跟踪功能的智能床垫套。

Now, I've spoken many times before on this podcast about the critical need to get sleep, both enough sleep and enough quality sleep.

现在，我之前在这个播客上多次谈到过睡眠的迫切需要，包括充足的睡眠和足够的高质量睡眠。

When we do that, everything, our mental health, our physical health, performance in any sports or school, etc. all get better.

当我们这样做时，一切，我们的心理健康，我们的身体健康，在任何运动或学校的表现等等都会变得更好。

And when we're not sleeping well or enough, all those things suffer.

当我们睡眠不好或睡眠不足时，所有这些都会受到影响。

One of the key things to getting a great night's sleep is that your body temperature actually has to drop by about one to three degrees in order to fall and stay deeply asleep.

获得良好睡眠的关键之一是，您的体温实际上必须下降约一到三度才能入睡并保持深度睡眠。

And in order to wake up feeling refreshed, your body temperature actually has to increase by about one to three degrees.

为了醒来时感觉神清气爽，您的体温实际上必须升高约一到三度。

One of the best ways to ensure that happens is to control the temperature of your sleeping environment.

确保这种情况发生的最佳方法之一是控制睡眠环境的温度。

And with Eight Sleep, it makes it very easy to do that.

而有了八睡眠，就可以很容易地做到这一点。

You program in the temperature that you want at the beginning, middle, and end of the night.

您可以在夜间开始、中间和结束时设定所需的温度。

You can even divide the temperature for two different people.

您甚至可以为两个不同的人分配温度。

If you have two different people sleeping in the bed and it tracks your sleep, it tells you how much slow wave sleep and rapid eye movement sleep you're getting.

如果你有两个不同的人睡在床上，并且它会跟踪你的睡眠，它会告诉你你正在获得多少慢波睡眠和快速眼动睡眠。

It really helps you dial in the correct parameters to get the best possible night's sleep for you.

它确实可以帮助您输入正确的参数，以获得最佳的夜间睡眠。

I've been sleeping on an Eight Sleep mattress cover for well over three years now, and it has completely transformed my sleep for the better.

我已经睡在八睡眠床垫罩上三年多了，它彻底改变了我的睡眠质量。

If you'd like to try Eight Sleep, you can go to eightsleep.com/huberman and save $150 off their Pod 3 Cover.

如果您想尝试八睡眠，您可以访问八睡眠.com/huberman，并从他们的 Pod 3 Cover 中节省 150 美元。

Eight Sleep currently ships in the U.S.A., Canada, U.K., select countries in the EU, and Australia.

八睡眠目前在美国、加拿大、英国、欧盟部分国家和澳大利亚发货。

Again, that's eightsleep.com/huberman.

再说一遍，这是八睡眠.com/huberman。

Today's episode is also brought to us by AeroPress.

今天的节目也是爱乐压为我们带来的。

AeroPress is like a French press, but a French press that always brews the perfect cup of coffee, meaning no bitterness and excellent taste.

AeroPress 就像法压壶，但法压壶总能冲泡出一杯完美的咖啡，意味着没有苦味且味道极佳。

AeroPress achieves this because it uses a very short contact time between the hot water and the coffee.

爱乐压 (AeroPress) 之所以能够实现这一点，是因为它在热水和咖啡之间使用了非常短的接触时间。

And that short contact time also means that you can brew an excellent cup of coffee very quickly.

较短的接触时间也意味着您可以很快冲泡一杯优质的咖啡。

The whole thing takes only about three minutes.

整个过程只需要大约三分钟。

I started using an AeroPress over ten years ago, and I learned about it from a guy named Alan Adler, who's a former Stanford engineer who's also an inventor.

我十多年前开始使用爱乐压，我是从一位名叫艾伦·阿德勒 (Alan Adler) 的人那里了解到它的，他是斯坦福大学的前工程师，也是一位发明家。

He developed things like the Aerobie Frisbee.

他开发了 Aerobie 飞盘之类的东西。

In any event, I'm a big fan of Adler inventions, and when I heard he developed a coffee maker, the AeroPress, I tried it and I found that, indeed, it makes the best possible tasting cup of coffee.

无论如何，我是阿德勒发明的忠实粉丝，当我听说他开发了爱乐压咖啡机时，我尝试了一下，发现它确实可以制作出味道最好的咖啡。

It's also extremely small and portable, so I started using it in the laboratory, when I travel on the road and also at home.

它也非常小且便于携带，所以我开始在实验室、路上旅行和家里使用它。

And I'm not alone in my love of the AeroPress coffee maker.

我并不是唯一一个热爱爱乐压咖啡机的人。

With over 55,000 five-star reviews, AeroPress is the best-reviewed coffee press in the world.

AeroPress 拥有超过 55,000 条五星级评价，是世界上评价最好的咖啡机。

If you'd like to try AeroPress, you can go to aeropress.com/huberman to get 20% off.

如果您想尝试 AeroPress，可以访问 aeropress.com/huberman 享受 20% 的折扣。

AeroPress currently ships in the U.S.A., Canada, and to over 60 other countries around the world.

目前，爱乐压 (AeroPress) 向美国、加拿大以及全球其他 60 多个国家/地区发货。

Again, that's aeropress.com/huberman.

同样，这是 aeropress.com/huberman。

And now for my discussion with Dr. Casey Means.

现在我与凯西·米恩斯博士进行讨论。

Dr. Casey Means, welcome.

凯西博士的意思是，欢迎。

Casey Means: Dr. Andrew Huberman.

凯西的意思是：安德鲁·胡伯曼博士。

Thank you so much for having me.

非常感谢你邀请我。

Andrew Huberman: Really excited to talk to you today about all things health.

安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman）：今天很高兴能与您谈论健康方面的所有问题。

One of the things I love so much about your work is that you really give people a sense of agency through knowledge and actionable tools, which is very near and dear to my mission and my heart.

我非常喜欢你的工作的一件事是，你通过知识和可操作的工具真正给人们一种代理感，这与我的使命和我的心非常接近和亲密。

But to kick things off, let's talk about metabolic function and dysfunction.

但首先，我们来谈谈代谢功能和功能障碍。

I think most people hear the word metabolism and they think, okay, the burning of energy.

我想大多数人听到新陈代谢这个词，他们都会想到，好吧，能量的燃烧。

Maybe they think about ATP.

也许他们会想到 ATP。

Maybe they think about calories in, calories out, that sort of thing.

也许他们会考虑卡路里摄入、卡路里消耗之类的事情。

But what are we talking about when we're talking about metabolic function and dysfunction?

但是，当我们谈论代谢功能和功能障碍时，我们在谈论什么？

Because these are really important concepts for everyone to understand.

因为这些对于每个人来说都是非常重要的概念。

Casey Means: Yeah, I think you're exactly right.

凯西的意思是：是的，我认为你完全正确。

I think that when we hear the word metabolism, the first thing that comes to most people's minds is, my weight.

我认为当我们听到新陈代谢这个词时，大多数人首先想到的是我的体重。

Do I have a fast metabolism, or do I have a slow metabolism or something like basal metabolic rate?

我的新陈代谢快还是新陈代谢慢或者基础代谢率之类的？

And I think what's really important for people to realize is that metabolism is actually the foundation of all health.

我认为人们真正重要的是要认识到新陈代谢实际上是所有健康的基础。

It is the core foundational pathway that drives all other aspects of health.

它是驱动健康所有其他方面的核心基础途径。

And it's also the core foundational pathway that's truly getting crushed in the modern American world and underlying nine of the 10 leading causes of death in the United States today.

这也是现代美国世界真正被压垮的核心基础途径，也是当今美国十大死因中的九个的根本原因。

It's really quite relevant to everyone.

这确实与每个人都息息相关。

And the spectrum of metabolic-rooted disease is vast and actually really relevant to most Americans.

代谢性疾病的范围很广，实际上与大多数美国人密切相关。

The latest research from American College of Cardiology suggests that 93% of American adults have suboptimal metabolism.

美国心脏病学会的最新研究表明，93% 的美国成年人新陈代谢不佳。

And we can go into what that means.

我们可以探讨这意味着什么。

But fundamentally, when we're talking about metabolism, we're talking about how we convert food energy to human energy.

但从根本上来说，当我们谈论新陈代谢时，我们谈论的是如何将食物能量转化为人体能量。

So we take in an astonishing 70 metric tons or so of food in our lifetime, and that is potential energy.

因此，我们一生中摄入的食物数量惊人，约为 70 吨左右，这就是势能。

It's energy from the environment that's outside of us that, through our metabolic pathways, gets converted to a currency of energy that can then be used to pay for essentially every chemical reaction inside our body.

来自我们外部环境的能量，通过我们的代谢途径，转化为一种能量货币，然后可以用来支付我们体内几乎所有的化学反应。

And the bubbling up of all of those chemical reactions is our lives.

所有这些化学反应的冒泡就是我们的生活。

And so when metabolism is not working properly, it's essentially creating underpowered cells.

因此，当新陈代谢不能正常工作时，本质上就会产生动力不足的细胞。

And like any city or factory or machine, not having adequate power will lead to dysfunction.

就像任何城市、工厂或机器一样，没有足够的电力就会导致功能障碍。

And the reason that the metabolic spectrum of disease is so vast is because we have over 200 cell types in the body, and underpowering in different cell types is going to look like different symptoms, because underpowering in a astrocyte is going to look different than underpowering an ovarian theca cell or an endothelial cell.

疾病的代谢谱之所以如此广泛，是因为我们体内有超过 200 种细胞类型，不同细胞类型的能量不足看起来像是不同的症状，因为星形胶质细胞的能量不足与卵巢卵泡膜细胞或内皮细胞的能量不足看起来不同。

It's going to look different, but the core foundational process that is dysfunctional can actually be the same, and I think the biggest blind spot in Western healthcare and actually the reason that health outcomes are actually getting worse every year in the United States is because fundamentally, we are ignoring metabolic health and metabolic dysfunction.

它看起来会有所不同，但功能失调的核心基础过程实际上可能是相同的，我认为西方医疗保健中最大的盲点以及实际上美国健康结果实际上每年变得更糟的原因是因为从根本上来说，我们忽视了代谢健康和代谢功能障碍。

We are laser focused on the downstream symptoms that result from metabolic dysfunction in different cell types.

我们专注于不同细胞类型代谢功能障碍导致的下游症状。

And we spend all of our energy focusing on those symptoms, playing whack-a-mole with them, and really ignoring that underlying, foundational root cause of metabolic function.

我们把所有的精力都集中在这些症状上，与它们玩打地鼠游戏，却真正忽略了代谢功能的根本原因。

And what's so fascinating to me and what I saw in the healthcare system as like a super subspecialist, as an ENT surgeon, is that the more we specialize in healthcare — we have over 100 specialties now that we've just invented in the healthcare system — the more we specialize in healthcare, the sicker we're actually getting.

让我着迷的是，我在医疗保健系统中看到的就像一个超级专科医生，作为一名耳鼻喉科医生，我们在医疗保健领域越专业——我们在医疗保健系统中刚刚发明了 100 多个专业——我们在医疗保健领域越专业，我们实际上得的病就越重。

So the more we do technological innovation in all these different specialties, the sicker we're getting.

因此，我们在所有这些不同专业领域进行的技术创新越多，我们的病情就越严重。

And I think the real nugget there that everyone really needs to understand is we've bought into a system where we value specialization, and this is the game in Western medicine.

我认为每个人真正需要理解的真正要点是我们已经接受了一个重视专业化的系统，这就是西方医学的游戏。

But while we've done that, what has happened is we have the worst chronic disease epidemic and the lowest life expectancy of any high-income country in the world.

但尽管我们已经做到了这一点，但我们的慢性病流行情况却是世界上所有高收入国家中最严重的，预期寿命也是最低的。

And the reason is because in that specialization, we're focused on the downstream manifestation of underpowering of cells, the cell-specific symptoms, and not the metabolic function itself.

原因是因为在该专业中，我们关注的是细胞动力不足的下游表现、细胞特异性症状，而不是代谢功能本身。

So really, our chronic disease epidemic in this country is a metabolic dysfunction epidemic, an underpowering epidemic, and that is the biggest blind spot in healthcare.

事实上，我们国家的慢性病流行是一种代谢功能障碍流行，一种动力不足的流行，这是医疗保健中最大的盲点。

I think a focus on metabolic function as the center of our healthcare system, it's a completely new paradigm for health that is urgently, and I cannot overstate enough, it's urgently needed.

我认为关注代谢功能作为我们医疗保健系统的中心，这是一种迫切需要的全新健康范式，我不能夸大其词，它是迫切需要的。

We know we're not in the right paradigm right now when we have 100 isolated specialties, and yet 85% to 90% of the conditions in those specialties, if you go to the science and look at the real physiology, is metabolic dysfunction.

我们知道，当我们有 100 个孤立的专业时，我们现在所处的范式并不正确，但如果你走向科学并了解真正的生理学，那么这些专业中 85% 到 90% 的情况都是代谢功能障碍。

So that's kind of the landscape of what metabolic dysfunction is and how it's kind of creating a big blind spot in the healthcare system that really represents an outdated way of categorizing disease that unfortunately is killing us, I would say.

我想说，这就是代谢功能障碍的情况，以及它如何在医疗保健系统中造成一个大盲点，这确实代表了一种过时的疾病分类方式，不幸的是，这种方式正在杀死我们。

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, thank you for that.

安德鲁·休伯曼：是的，谢谢你。

I have several reflections and a question.

我有几点思考和一个问题。

First off, the analogy that comes to mind is an assembly line that's constructing, let's say, an automobile.

首先，我想到的类比是一条正在建造汽车的装配线。

And it sounds like 80% to 90% of the automobiles that are coming off that assembly line are not working well.

听起来，从装配线上下来的汽车中有 80% 到 90% 的性能不佳。

Tires aren't aligned, engine isn't working well, transmission isn't working.

轮胎未对准，发动机工作不良，变速箱无法工作。

There's a bunch of issues, and no factory, no car manufacturer would tolerate that, nor would the customers.

存在很多问题，没有一家工厂、没有一家汽车制造商会容忍这种情况，客户也不会。

But we're tolerating that in ourselves.

但我们自己却容忍这种情况。

It sounds like many people are.

听起来很多人都是这样。

And then accepting the fact that then a bunch of other businesses are going to crop up, like the business that aligns the tires, the business that goes and repairs the pistons.

然后接受这样一个事实，即许多其他业务将会突然出现，比如调整轮胎的业务、修理活塞的业务。

And essentially, when you talk about these multispecialties that have evolved in the medical care system, they provide an opportunity to go and fix the problems, or try and ameliorate the problems.

从本质上讲，当您谈论医疗保健系统中发展的这些多专业时，它们提供了解决问题或尝试改善问题的机会。

But really, what we need to do, to make this analogy much briefer than it otherwise would be, is just to go further up the assembly line, figure out whether or not the hardware is correct, the software is correct, and where the hardware and software are becoming deficient.

但实际上，为了让这个类比变得更加简短，我们需要做的只是进一步深入装配线，弄清楚硬件是否正确，软件是否正确，以及硬件和软件在哪里变得不足。

In this analogy, where we are the automobile that's essentially coming off the conveyor, broken.

在这个类比中，我们本质上是一辆从传送带上下来的汽车，已经坏了。

The good news is, and I know this because I've read your book and because I follow your work very closely, the good news is that we, each and all, can take matters, to some extent, into our own hands, collaborate with healthcare providers and repair metabolic dysfunction, essentially make us metabolically functional.

好消息是，我知道这一点是因为我读过你的书，也因为我非常密切地关注你的工作，好消息是我们每个人都可以在某种程度上将事情掌握在自己手中，与医疗保健提供者合作并修复代谢功能障碍，从本质上使我们的代谢功能正常。

So the question therefore, is, I think most people, when they hear metabolism, they think of energy.

因此，问题是，我认为大多数人，当他们听到新陈代谢时，他们会想到能量。

And when we hear energy, we think ATP sometimes.

当我们听到能量时，有时我们会想到 ATP。

But typically, people think about mitochondria, the powerhouse of the cell, so to speak.

但通常情况下，人们会想到线粒体，可以说是细胞的动力源。

So you've talked about the trifecta, or the big three: mitochondria, inflammation and oxidative stress, as three critical factors underlying metabolic dysfunction.

所以你谈到了三重奏，或者说三大因素：线粒体、炎症和氧化应激，这是代谢功能障碍的三个关键因素。

And I'm presuming those are also the avenues to address in order to create metabolic function.

我认为这些也是创造代谢功能的解决途径。

Because ultimately, what we want, of course, is an optimistic picture that we can actually take some control, that we have some agency in all of this, which I believe we do.

因为最终，我们想要的当然是一个乐观的景象，我们实际上可以控制一些，我们在所有这一切中都有一些代理机构，我相信我们做到了。

So if you would, could you get us all on the same page about what are mitochondria and what do they do?

那么，如果您愿意的话，您能否让我们大家就什么是线粒体以及它们的作用达成共识？

Why are they so important?

为什么它们如此重要？

Then we can turn to inflammation and oxidative stress.

然后我们可以转向炎症和氧化应激。

Casey Means: Yes, absolutely.

凯西的意思是：是的，绝对是。

The mitochondria are the structure within the cells.

线粒体是细胞内的结构。

We have 40 trillion cells, and each cell might have a handful or many thousand mitochondria.

我们有 40 万亿个细胞，每个细胞可能有几个或几千个线粒体。

And they are the magical part of the cell that does that conversion process of food breaking down and then converting to energy, translating it to a currency of energy our body can recognize.

它们是细胞的神奇部分，负责食物分解然后转化为能量的转换过程，将其转化为我们身体可以识别的能量货币。

And so currently, what's happening is that our environment, the environment that our cells exist in, across every single facet of our life over the past 50 to 75 years, has changed rapidly.

因此，目前正在发生的事情是，在过去 50 到 75 年里，我们的环境、我们的细胞生存的环境、我们生活的各个方面都发生了迅速的变化。

You look at how our food system has changed from whole, real food and good soil to industrial food.

您会看到我们的食物系统如何从完整的、真正的食物和良好的土壤转变为工业食品。

Our sleep habits have changed.

我们的睡眠习惯已经改变。

We're sleeping less.

我们睡得越来越少了

It's very fragmented.

它非常分散。

Our movement patterns have changed.

我们的运动模式已经改变。

We're sitting 80% of the waking day.

一天醒着的时候，我们有 80% 的时间都是坐着的。

Our time in nature has changed.

我们的自然时代已经改变。

We actually are indoors as Americans 93% of a 24-hour period.

实际上，美国人 24 小时内 93% 的时间都待在室内。

So that totally changes our relationship with light.

这完全改变了我们与光的关系。

We have 80,000 synthetic toxins in our food, water, air, personal care products, home care products.

我们的食物、水、空气、个人护理产品、家庭护理产品中含有 80,000 种合成毒素。

We live a thermoneutral existence now with our thermostats.

现在，我们有了恒温器，过着热中性的生活。

There's no real swings in temperature, unless you're intentionally trying to.

除非您有意尝试，否则温度不会发生真正的波动。

And then our emotional health is very different.

然后我们的情绪健康状况就非常不同了。

We are very much exposed to low-grade chronic stress triggers.

我们非常容易受到低度慢性压力触发因素的影响。

So across food, sleep, movement, emotional health, toxins, light, and temperature, things are not what they once were.

因此，在食物、睡眠、运动、情绪健康、毒素、光线和温度方面，一切都不再是以前的样子了。

And it's changed in the blink of an eye.

而且眨眼间就变了。

I mean, the light bulb was created in 1806.

我的意思是，灯泡是 1806 年制造的。

This is like 0.04% of human history that we've even had artificial light.

这相当于人类历史上 0.04% 的时间里曾经有过人造光。

So things have changed.

所以事情发生了变化。

And the unique thing about all of these changes in our environment is that each one of those pillars, each of those changes in our environment, synergistically directly hurts the mitochondria through different mechanisms.

我们环境中所有这些变化的独特之处在于，这些支柱中的每一个，我们环境中的每一个变化，都通过不同的机制协同地直接伤害线粒体。

The chronic low-grade stress, the sitting, the ultraprocessed, nutrient-devoid food, even the blue light at nighttime.

长期的低度压力、久坐、过度加工、缺乏营养的食物，甚至夜间的蓝光。

All of it, through different core biologic mechanisms, synergistically hits this part of the cell, the mitochondria.

所有这些，通过不同的核心生物机制，协同作用于细胞的这一部分，即线粒体。

So we have the food coming in, but we're not doing a good job of converting it to an energy form we can use.

因此，我们有食物进来，但我们没有很好地将其转化为我们可以使用的能源形式。

So we have these underpowered, dysfunctional cells because of mitochondrial dysfunction caused by our environment.

因此，由于我们的环境导致线粒体功能障碍，我们拥有这些动力不足、功能失调的细胞。

And, of course, what happens if you've got energy substrate that you can't process?

当然，如果你有无法处理的能量底物，会发生什么？

It's going to be stored.

它将被存储。

And that's, of course, why we have an obesity and overweight epidemic that's affecting close to 80% of American people.

当然，这就是肥胖和超重流行的原因，影响着近 80% 的美国人。

Andrew Huberman: It's so wild.

安德鲁·休伯曼：这太疯狂了。

Casey Means: It's just, we talk about obesity like it's the problem.

凯西的意思是：我们只是把肥胖当作问题来谈论。

Obesity is one branch of a tree that's rooted in this mitochondrial dysfunction that's caused by our environment.

肥胖是一棵树的一个分支，其根源是由我们的环境引起的线粒体功能障碍。

And just to back up a little bit, to just sort of share kind of, maybe, like, how I sort of started thinking about that.

只是为了支持一点，只是分享一下，也许，就像，我是如何开始思考这个问题的。

You know, I had trained as an ENT surgeon, and I was at Stanford Medical School, and I was so fascinated by this idea of, like, the way that we're defining the diseases we're treating in a specialty like ENT is like, I saw sinusitis day in and day out, and we'd have these patients on the table that we'd be literally drilling into their skulls to suck out sinus pus.

你知道，我曾接受过耳鼻喉科外科医生的培训，当时我在斯坦福大学医学院，我对这种想法非常着迷，就像我们定义耳鼻喉科等专业治疗的疾病的方式一样，我日复一日地看到鼻窦炎，我们将这些患者放在手术台上，我们实际上是在他们的头骨上钻孔以吸出鼻窦脓液。

And that's, like, the treatment for sinusitis.

这就是鼻窦炎的治疗方法。

And the way we diagnose the patients is we say, like, okay, this patient has sinusitis if they have facial pressure, purulent pus, you know, nasal discharge, nasal obstruction, and low sense of smell.

我们诊断病人的方式是，好吧，如果这个病人有面部压力、脓脓、流鼻涕、鼻塞和嗅觉低下，那么他就是鼻窦炎。

So if they have these symptoms, then they have this disease.

因此，如果他们有这些症状，那么他们就患有这种疾病。

But when you actually go to the science and you actually go to the studies of, like, what is actually happening to create this, what you find is a lot of papers about mitochondrial dysfunction, because sinusitis is in a chronic inflammatory condition where the cells are essentially sensing some threat, and then they mount this immune response that creates swelling, and then you get pus buildup.

但当你真正走向科学，你真正去研究，比如，到底发生了什么，你会发现很多关于线粒体功能障碍的论文，因为鼻窦炎处于慢性炎症状态，细胞本质上感受到了一些威胁，然后它们发起这种免疫反应，导致肿胀，然后你就会脓液积聚。

But we confuse the pus buildup with the disease, which is actually happening inside the cells.

但我们将脓液积聚与疾病混为一谈，而疾病实际上发生在细胞内部。

You start looking at PubMed as a clinician through a slightly different lens of, like, what's actually happening in the cells.

作为临床医生，你开始通过稍微不同的视角来看待 PubMed，比如细胞中实际发生的情况。

And what you find for almost every chronic disease we're seeing in the U.S. is that you will find a lot of papers on how the mitochondria are dysfunctional, lower ATP generation in a lot of these cell types, and then what does that do?

对于我们在美国看到的几乎每一种慢性疾病，你都会发现很多关于线粒体功能失调、许多细胞类型中 ATP 生成减少的论文，那么这会带来什么影响呢？

And this gets to your question about chronic inflammation and oxidative stress.

这涉及到关于慢性炎症和氧化应激的问题。

Well, when you've got that dysfunctional mitochondria, let's say, in a nasal mucosal tissue, that is a cell that can't do its job, that is a cell that's underpowered.

好吧，当你的线粒体功能失调时，比如说，在鼻粘膜组织中，这是一个无法完成其工作的细胞，这是一个动力不足的细胞。

And what could be more threatening to the body than a cell that can't do its job?

还有什么比无法完成其工作的细胞对身体更具威胁的呢？

Interestingly, those cells will initiate a whole process, which is called the cell danger response.

有趣的是，这些细胞会启动一个完整的过程，这被称为细胞危险反应。

It's work that's been done by Robert Naviaux at UCSD, where basically they understand the mitochondria is not working properly.

这项工作是由加州大学圣地亚哥分校的罗伯特·纳维奥克斯完成的，他们基本上了解到线粒体无法正常工作。

This is, of course, caused by the environment, and they will actually release extracellular ATP, which is not really supposed to go outside of the cell.

当然，这是由环境引起的，它们实际上会释放细胞外 ATP，而这些 ATP 并不真正应该释放到细胞外。

And that creates a massive innate immune response saying, like, I'm underpowered, I need help.

这会产生大量的先天免疫反应，说，我的力量不足，我需要帮助。

My mitochondria is broken — this is the cell — releases ATP outside of the cell.

我的线粒体损坏了——这就是细胞——将 ATP 释放到细胞外。

Usually the concentration of ATP is a million times higher inside the cell, so it releases it almost as a neurotransmitter, a pure genic neurotransmitter, neurotransmitter that massively activates the immune system to come and help.

通常，细胞内 ATP 的浓度要高出一百万倍，因此它几乎以神经递质的形式释放它，这是一种纯基因神经递质，这种神经递质可以大量激活免疫系统来提供帮助。

But the immune system comes and is like, not much we can do for you here, because the problem is not something that the immune system can help with, like grabbing a bacteria and lysing it, or, you know, taking care of some cells infected with a virus.

但是免疫系统来了，我们在这里能为你做的不多，因为问题不是免疫系统可以帮助解决的，比如抓住细菌并裂解它，或者，你知道，处理一些被病毒感染的细胞。

The problem is outside the body; it's the environment.

问题出在身体之外；这是环境。

So you end up getting this tornado of dysfunction, of mitochondrial dysfunction caused by the environment, leading to the cell danger response, which leads to innate immunity.

因此，你最终会遇到由环境引起的线粒体功能障碍的龙卷风，导致细胞危险反应，从而导致先天免疫。

And then on top of this, you get the oxidative stress, which is the third piece of the trifecta, which is essentially these mitochondria trying so hard to do their work, but they're not working properly.

除此之外，还有氧化应激，这是三连胜的第三部分，本质上是这些线粒体努力完成其工作，但它们无法正常工作。

So they create damaging metabolic byproducts called oxidative stress-free radicals that cause more damage.

因此，它们会产生破坏性的代谢副产物，称为氧化应激自由基，从而造成更多损害。

So this is happening in the nose, it's happening all over the American body because of our environment.

因此，由于我们的环境，这种情况发生在鼻子中，发生在美国人的全身。

So you've got these tornadoes of interrelated physiology of mitochondrial dysfunction, chronic inflammation, oxidative stress, which, if you start going to the research as a clinician who's focused on symptoms and confusing those for the disease, and look at what's the pathophysiology of arthritis, what's the pathophysiology of Alzheimer's dementia?

因此，你会遇到线粒体功能障碍、慢性炎症、氧化应激等相互关联的生理学的龙卷风，如果你开始作为一名临床医生进行研究，专注于症状并将这些症状与疾病混淆，并看看关节炎的病理生理学是什么，阿尔茨海默氏痴呆的病理生理学是什么？

What's the pathophysiology of type 2 diabetes, obesity, fat or fatty liver disease, polycystic ovarian syndrome, erectile dysfunction.

2 型糖尿病、肥胖、肥胖或脂肪肝、多囊卵巢综合征、勃起功能障碍的病理生理学是什么。

It all traces back to this trifecta that no medication or surgery, you obviously can't operate on oxidative stress.

这一切都可以追溯到这三重奏：没有药物或手术，你显然无法在氧化应激下进行手术。

You can operate on the downstream symptoms.

您可以针对下游症状进行操作。

So that's the real secret that I really feel like we need to reorient the healthcare system around.

所以这是真正的秘密，我真的觉得我们需要重新调整医疗保健系统。

Since 90% of healthcare costs go towards treating the downstream symptoms of these.

因为 90% 的医疗费用都用于治疗这些下游症状。

And for every marginal dollar we're spending on treating symptoms we're getting, the rates are going up because they're doing nothing to actually affect that trifecta.

对于我们在治疗症状上花费的每一边际美元，发病率都会上升，因为它们没有采取任何措施来真正影响这三重奏。

But to really make it simple, I like to think of this trifecta of what I call the trifecta of bad energy, trifecta underlying metabolic dysfunction of chronic inflammation, mitochondrial dysfunction, oxidative stress, as chronic inflammation is biochemical fear.

但为了真正简单起见，我喜欢想到我所说的坏能量三重奏，慢性炎症代谢功能障碍、线粒体功能障碍、氧化应激的三重奏，因为慢性炎症是生化恐惧。

It's a response to a threat.

这是对威胁的回应。

Mitochondrial dysfunction is kind of like rolling blackouts.

线粒体功能障碍有点像轮流停电。

It's not enough power.

是电量不够。

And the oxidative stress is like wildfires.

氧化应激就像野火一样。

So it's kind of what's funny to me a little bit is like what's happening inside the cell is almost like what's happening in our society.

所以对我来说有点有趣的是，细胞内发生的事情几乎就像我们社会中发生的事情一样。

It's like, this is like living in California.

就像，这就像生活在加利福尼亚州一样。

It's like blackouts, fire, fear, and that's literally what's happening inside our cell because of the environment.

这就像停电、火灾、恐惧，这正是我们牢房内由于环境而发生的事情。

And again, the optimistic news that you alluded to is that we actually have tons of tools and tests that can actually help us understand our level of metabolic health and even give us hints about inflammation, oxidative stress, and mitochondrial dysfunction.

再说一次，你提到的乐观消息是，我们实际上拥有大量的工具和测试，可以帮助我们了解我们的代谢健康水平，甚至为我们提供有关炎症、氧化应激和线粒体功能障碍的提示。

And it's very easy to improve if we know what we're actually focused on.

如果我们知道我们真正关注的是什么，那么改进就很容易。

Andrew Huberman: Well, that's reassuring.

安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯，这让人放心。

And we're definitely going to go there.

我们肯定会去那里。

I appreciate the analogy to living in California.

我很欣赏生活在加利福尼亚州的类比。

I've lived here my entire life.

我一生都住在这里。

I have been outside of California.

我去过加利福尼亚州以外的地方。

But perhaps the only thing you left out besides rolling blackouts, fires.

但也许除了轮流停电之外，你唯一遗漏的就是火灾。

And what was the other one?

另一件是什么？

Casey Means: Fear.

凯西的意思是：恐惧。

Andrew Huberman: And fear is high taxes.

安德鲁·休伯曼：恐惧是高税收。

The taxes are the health debt on the body.

税收是身体的健康债务。

So in any case, not to be too dark and pessimistic--

所以无论如何，不要太黑暗和悲观——

Casey Means: --Well, that's the healthcare cost.

凯西的意思是：——嗯，这就是医疗费用。

Andrew Huberman: I maintain great hope and still a lot of love for California.

安德鲁·胡伯曼：我对加州仍然抱有很大的希望和热爱。

Casey Means: It's pretty great.

凯西的意思是：太棒了。

Andrew Huberman: It's got its great aspects and it's not-so-great aspects.

Andrew Huberman：它有好的方面，也有不太好的方面。

And I can say that as a lifelong California resident; there are other wonderful places to live.

作为一名终身加州居民，我可以这么说；还有其他美妙的居住地。

A couple of questions.

有几个问题。

First of all, about places to live: You've been talking a lot about in the United States.

首先，关于居住地：您在美国已经谈论了很多。

Are some of the same issues with metabolic dysfunction occurring outside of the United States?

美国以外地区是否也存在一些与代谢功能障碍相同的问题？

I would imagine so.

我想是这样。

Casey Means: Yeah, any country where we've exported the standard American diet and some of the other norms of Western living are starting to see the same rates of chronic disease.

凯西的意思是：是的，任何我们输出标准美国饮食和其他一些西方生活规范的国家都开始看到同样的慢性病发病率。

But it is worth not mincing words here.

但值得在这里不要拐弯抹角。

Of all high-income countries in the world, the United States has the worst chronic disease rates and the lowest life expectancy.

在世界上所有高收入国家中，美国的慢性病发病率最高，预期寿命最低。

And our life expectancy is going down.

我们的预期寿命正在下降。

And we spend about twice as much on health care than the second highest spending country in the world.

我们在医疗保健上的支出大约是世界第二大支出国家的两倍。

So we are abjectly failing.

所以我们是彻底失败了。

And that failure is predicated in our cult of siloing conditions into different, you know, different specialties, and not focusing on this root cause.

这种失败的根源在于我们对不同的条件的崇拜，你知道，不同的专业，而不是关注这个根本原因。

And I want to just be super clear, like, there's a war being fought right now to get us to believe that siloing is the way, because as you alluded to, siloing is profitable.

我想非常明确地说，现在正在进行一场战争，让我们相信筒仓是出路，因为正如你所提到的，筒仓是有利可图的。

If you can convince doctors and people that their 10 different symptoms are separate things, then they're going to 10 different specialist offices.

如果你能让医生和人们相信他们的 10 种不同症状是不同的，那么他们就会去 10 个不同的专科诊所。

Meanwhile, 75% of American adults are overweight and obese, some of the highest in the world.

与此同时，75% 的美国成年人超重和肥胖，有些是世界上最高的。

A full 50% of American adults now have prediabetes and type 2 diabetes, 50%!

现在，整整 50% 的美国成年人患有糖尿病前期和 2 型糖尿病，50%！

Thirty percent of teens have prediabetes.

百分之三十的青少年患有糖尿病前期。

Forty percent of Americans have a mental health diagnosis.

百分之四十的美国人有心理健康诊断。

Cancer is set to reach two million cases this year in 2024, highest ever in recorded history.

到 2024 年，癌症病例数预计将达到 200 万例，这是有记录以来的最高水平。

Alzheimer's is going up.

阿尔茨海默病的发病率正在上升。

Fatty liver disease is affecting 40% of adults, 18% of teens.

40% 的成年人和 18% 的青少年患有脂肪肝。

Autoimmune disease is skyrocketing.

自身免疫性疾病正在急剧上升。

Infertility is going up at huge rates.

不孕症正在急剧增加。

All these things are going up all at once in the U.S. and yes, in many of the other countries that are eating our diet, and there's no sign of it slowing down.

在美国，所有这些事情都在同时上升，是的，在许多其他正在吃我们饮食的国家，而且没有放缓的迹象。

And so that's really, if you look at the research through this different lens, you'll find that all of those diseases trace back to metabolic dysfunction caused by our environment — that no shot, pill or surgery can really address unless we unpack the environmental piece.

所以，如果你从不同的角度审视这项研究，你会发现所有这些疾病都可以追溯到我们的环境引起的代谢功能障碍——除非我们解开环境因素，否则任何注射、药物或手术都无法真正解决这个问题。

Andrew Huberman: Scary picture.

安德鲁·休伯曼：可怕的画面。

I'm glad that you're....

我很高兴你是......

But hopefully we can fix it.

但希望我们能解决它。

Exactly.

确切地。

I'm glad that you are creating solutions.

我很高兴您正在创建解决方案。

And I should say, and just remind people.

我应该说，只是提醒人们。

I said this in my introduction, but you're talking about siloed medical care.

我在介绍中说过这一点，但你谈论的是孤立的医疗保健。

You're talking about the kind of standard medical system.

你说的是那种标准的医疗系统。

But let's not forget I happen to be a faculty at Stanford.

但我们不要忘记我碰巧是斯坦福大学的一名教师。

You did your medical training at Stanford.

您在斯坦福大学接受了医学培训。

You are a medical doctor.

你是一名医生。

You have an M.D.

你有医学博士学位

and are highly trained.

并且训练有素。

You were an ENT, ear, nose and throat doctor.

您是一名耳鼻喉科医生。

If anyone would be familiar with the industry and the practice and the educational system around this, it's you.

如果有人熟悉这个行业、实践和教育体系，那就是你了。

So you're not speaking outside your bailiwick.

所以你不会在你的辖区之外说话。

So before we pivot to solutions, I know people are eager to hear solutions, but in order to understand how to best apply those solutions, I do think it's worth drilling into some of the issues here just a little bit more.

因此，在我们转向解决方案之前，我知道人们渴望听到解决方案，但为了了解如何最好地应用这些解决方案，我确实认为值得进一步深入研究这里的一些问题。

You talked about underpowered cells.

你谈到了动力不足的细胞。

Casey Means: Yeah.

凯西的意思是：是啊。

Andrew Huberman: You've also alluded to the fact that most people are consuming enough, and probably excess amounts of caloric energy.

安德鲁·休伯曼：您还提到了这样一个事实，即大多数人消耗了足够的、甚至可能过量的热量。

So is it the lack of mitochondria or mitochondrial dysfunction that's at the root of the problem?

那么问题的根源是缺乏线粒体还是线粒体功能障碍呢？

The analogy I come up with is you've got a power plant that can convert the incoming power line to power that can be distributed to a community.

我提出的类比是，您有一个发电厂，可以将输入的电力线转换为可以分配给社区的电力。

The community, in this analogy, being the organs and cells of the body.

打个比方，社区就是身体的器官和细胞。

There's plenty of potential energy, but there's something about the power plant that is inefficient or dysfunctional.

潜在能源充足，但发电厂效率低下或功能失调。

There are shorts, there is circuitry that's just not working, such that the energy that the community can benefit from, the cells and organs of the body, is just not there.

存在短路，存在无法正常工作的电路，因此社区、身体的细胞和器官可以从中受益的能量不存在。

So it's not a lack of input, it's a lack of conversion and output.

所以不是缺少输入，而是缺少转换和输出。

And the consequence of this we see in the form of excess adipose tissue and all the downstream effects — it's not just aesthetic, it's really all the downstream effects of visceral fat, subcutaneous fat, etc. What is it that would improve access to energy and energy utilization in cells?

我们看到的后果是多余的脂肪组织和所有下游影响——这不仅仅是美观，实际上是内脏脂肪、皮下脂肪等的所有下游影响。什么可以改善细胞中能量的获取和能量利用？

Is it simply a matter of getting the mitochondria to function better?

这仅仅是让线粒体更好地发挥功能的问题吗？

Or is it that one can actually create more mitochondria?

或者说人们实际上可以创造更多的线粒体吗？

Casey Means: This is the key question for how we can get healthy.

凯西的意思是：这是我们如何获得健康的关键问题。

And it's really about creating capacity in the body to turn more potential energy to usable energy, as opposed to taking that potential energy and shunting it to a storage form.

它实际上是在身体中创造能力，将更多的势能转化为可用能量，而不是获取势能并将其分流为存储形式。

It's all just like, I think about everything visually, and I'm like, you got the circular cell from a high school biology textbook.

这就像，我从视觉上思考一切，我就像，你从高中生物课本上看到了圆形细胞。

Inside are all the little mitochondria with the squiggly lines inside, and it's just like there's x's through those mitochondria.

里面都是小线粒体，里面有波浪线，就像有x穿过这些线粒体一样。

So instead of after glycolysis and you've got the pyruvate, instead of going through the mitochondria, it's being shuttled into something else.

因此，丙酮酸不是在糖酵解之后得到的，而是被输送到其他地方，而不是通过线粒体。

And, I mean, this is fundamentally the cause of insulin resistance, because when the body senses that the mitochondria can't do that conversion process, the cell basically says, because I can't convert this, I don't have the capacity to convert it to usable energy.

我的意思是，这从根本上是胰岛素抵抗的原因，因为当身体感觉到线粒体无法完成该转换过程时，细胞基本上会说，因为我无法将其转换，所以我没有能力将其转换为可用能量。

I'm going to take the substrates and I need to block them.

我要拿走基材，我需要阻挡它们。

I mean, you've got to turn them to basically a storage form, which inside the cell could be toxic fats like ceramides and diacylglycerol.

我的意思是，你必须将它们转变为基本上一种储存形式，细胞内可能含有有毒脂肪，如神经酰胺和二酰甘油。

And I'm also going to block the cell from taking any more substrates because I can't do anything with them.

我还将阻止细胞吸收更多底物，因为我无法对它们做任何事情。

That is fundamentally a root of insulin resistance.

这从根本上是胰岛素抵抗的根源。

So the body says, okay, we're going to block the ability of the insulin receptor to transduce its intracellular signaling pathway.

所以身体说，好吧，我们要阻断胰岛素受体转导其细胞内信号通路的能力。

We're going to block it.

我们要阻止它。

And when that insulin binds, we're not actually going to allow for glucose to come in.

当胰岛素结合时，我们实际上不会允许葡萄糖进入。

So essentially, insulin resistance is the cell compensating for the mitochondria being broken and telling the insulin receptor that it, you know, that it's not going to be functional.

因此，从本质上讲，胰岛素抵抗是细胞补偿线粒体被破坏，并告诉胰岛素受体，你知道，它不会发挥功能。

And so you don't get the glute for, you don't get the glute receptors on the cell membrane to allow the glucose to come in.

所以你没有得到谷蛋白，你没有得到细胞膜上的谷蛋白受体来让葡萄糖进入。

So that's insulin resistance.

这就是胰岛素抵抗。

Again, we talk about that as the problem, but the problem is actually inside the cell leading to that.

我们再次将其视为问题，但问题实际上是在细胞内部导致的。

So that's why just giving someone insulin isn't necessarily the answer.

这就是为什么仅仅给某人注射胰岛素不一定是答案。

We have to increase mitochondrial capacity to let the flow happen through it to energy, which then trickles up into relieving a lot of these problems.

我们必须增强线粒体的能力，让能量流经它，然后逐渐缓解许多此类问题。

So, to answer your question, what we really want to do to increase our metabolic capacity from a first principles perspective, it's we need to make more mitochondria.

因此，为了回答你的问题，从第一原理的角度来看，我们真正想做的事情是增加我们的代谢能力，那就是我们需要制造更多的线粒体。

We need to get each mitochondria to be more functional, and we need to have each more-functional mitochondria processing more energy substrates.

我们需要让每个线粒体变得更有功能，并且我们需要让每个功能更强大的线粒体处理更多的能量底物。

It's really that simple.

真的就是这么简单。

And the beauty is, we can do all of those things.

美妙的是，我们可以做所有这些事情。

If you actually break down what those three things mean.

如果你真的分解这三件事的含义。

It means promoting mitophagy, the recycling of old mitochondria to new mitochondria.

这意味着促进线粒体自噬，即旧线粒体再循环为新线粒体。

It means promoting mitochondrial biogenesis.

这意味着促进线粒体生物发生。

It means increasing the oxidative capacity of our individual mitochondria.

这意味着增加我们个体线粒体的氧化能力。

It means improving mitochondrial fusion, which is actually when mitochondria come together to form long chains of mitochondria that are more efficient.

这意味着改善线粒体融合，这实际上是当线粒体聚集在一起形成更有效的线粒体长链时。

So there's, like, a lot of technicality to, like, what it means to print more mitochondria, have them each be more efficient, and have each one do more work.

因此，有很多技术性的问题，比如打印更多线粒体、让它们变得更有效率、让每个线粒体做更多的工作意味着什么。

But that's really what we want to do.

但这确实是我们想做的。

And that's when it just kind of gets into the simple habits.

那时它就进入了简单的习惯。

Like, there's simple things we can do for each of those things.

就像，我们可以为每件事做一些简单的事情。

From mitophagy, we can focus on various types of endurance exercise and high-intensity interval exercise.

从线粒体自噬出发，我们可以重点进行各类耐力运动和高强度间歇运动。

There's compounds like Urolithin A that promote mitophagy.

尿石素 A 等化合物可以促进线粒体自噬。

When we talk about improving our oxidative capacity, this is things like the sprint workouts.

当我们谈论提高氧化能力时，这就是冲刺训练之类的事情。

We want to build more mitochondria.

我们想要构建更多的线粒体。

This is resistance training, literally telling the body to make more.

这是阻力训练，字面意思是告诉身体要制造更多。

But first principles, it's, how do we get more of these working better, doing more work every day?

但首要原则是，我们如何让更多这些工作更好地工作，每天做更多的工作？

And then we think about, you know, you look at the data on walking, and it's like, people who walk more than 7000 steps a day have a 50% to 65% lower chance of dying in 10-year follow-ups.

然后我们会想，你知道，你看一下步行数据，就会发现，每天步行超过 7000 步的人在 10 年的随访中，死亡几率会降低 50% 到 65%。

And it's like, yeah, because walking is literally a glucose disposal signal.

就像，是的，因为步行实际上是葡萄糖处理信号。

So you're just simply asking, it's not a great biogenesis signal, it's not a great mitophagy signal, but it's a great disposal.

所以你只是简单地问，这不是一个很好的生物发生信号，它不是一个很好的线粒体自噬信号，但它是一个很好的处置。

So, if you're doing lifestyle habits that do one of those three things, which we can, of course, go into more, you're improving the cell's capacity to do that conversion process better.

因此，如果你的生活习惯能够做到这三件事中的一件（我们当然可以对此进行更多探讨），那么你就可以提高细胞更好地完成转化过程的能力。

Andrew Huberman: I'd like to take a brief break and acknowledge our sponsor, AG1.

Andrew Huberman：我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商 AG1。

By now, most of you have heard me tell my story about how I've been taking AG1 once or twice a day every day since 2012.

到目前为止，你们中的大多数人都已经听过我讲述自 2012 年以来我如何每天服用一到两次 AG1 的故事。

And indeed, that's true.

确实如此。

I started taking AG1, and I still take AG1 once or twice a day, because it gives me vitamins and minerals that I might not be getting enough of from whole foods that I eat, as well as adaptogens and micronutrients, and those adaptogens and micronutrients are really critical because even though I strive to eat most of my foods from unprocessed or minimally processed whole foods, it's often hard to do so, especially when I'm traveling and especially when I'm busy.

我开始服用 AG1，而且我仍然每天服用一两次 AG1，因为它为我提供了我可能无法从我吃的天然食品中获取的维生素和矿物质，以及适应原和微量营养素，这些适应原和微量营养素非常重要，因为即使我努力从未加工或最低限度加工的天然食品中吃大部分食物，但通常很难做到这一点，尤其是当我在旅行时，尤其是当我很忙时。

So by drinking a packet of AG1 in the morning, and oftentimes also again in the afternoon or evening, I'm ensuring that I'm getting everything I need.

因此，通过早上喝一包 AG1，并且经常在下午或晚上再喝一次，我可以确保获得我需要的一切。

I'm covering all of my foundational nutritional needs.

我满足了我所有的基本营养需求。

And I, like so many other people that take AG1 regularly, just report feeling better.

我和许多其他定期服用 AG1 的人一样，只是报告感觉好多了。

And that shouldn't be surprising because it supports gut health.

这并不奇怪，因为它支持肠道健康。

And of course, gut health supports immune system health and brain health.

当然，肠道健康支持免疫系统健康和大脑健康。

And it's supporting a ton of different cellular and organ processes that all interact with one another.

它支持大量相互相互作用的不同细胞和器官过程。

So while certain supplements are really directed towards one specific outcome, like sleeping better or being more alert, AG1 really is foundational nutritional support.

因此，虽然某些补充剂确实针对一种特定的结果，例如睡得更好或更加警觉，但 AG1 确实是基础营养支持。

It's really designed to support all of the systems of your brain and body that relate to mental health and physical health.

它的真正目的是支持与心理健康和身体健康相关的大脑和身体的所有系统。

If you'd like to try AG1, you can go to drinkag.com/huberman to claim a special offer.

如果您想尝试 AG1，可以访问 Drinkag.com/huberman 申请特别优惠。

They'll give you five free travel packs with your order, plus a year's supply of vitamin D3K2.

您订购后，他们将赠送 5 个免费旅行套装，以及一年的维生素 D3K2。

Again, that's drinkag1.com/huberman.

再说一遍，这是 Drinkag1.com/huberman。

There's a lot of great science and a lot of great stuff related to testing and assessment of one's metabolic health that we should get into and will get into.

有很多伟大的科学和很多与测试和评估一个人的代谢健康相关的伟大的东西，我们应该并且将会研究。

But since we touched on lifestyle, and because we've been talking about the sort of dysfunctional dark side for a bit, maybe we could just touch on some of the lifestyle factors that you just mentioned.

但既然我们谈到了生活方式，并且因为我们一直在谈论那种功能失调的黑暗面，也许我们可以谈谈你刚才提到的一些生活方式因素。

Because I do think it's important that people really start to feel  their sense of agency, and here we're talking about things that are relatively low time investment, certainly don't have much financial cost in the sense that they could be done in gyms and with fancy equipment, but they don't require that.

因为我确实认为人们真正开始感受到他们的代理感很重要，在这里我们谈论的是时间投入相对较低的事情，当然没有太多的财务成本，因为它们可以在健身房和高档设备中完成，但他们并不需要这样做。

Again, I want to point out that these are not strict prescriptives, but if you had a magic wand and because you are interested in the health of humans, let's talk about a few of these things that can improve glucose disposal and mitochondrial function, mitophagy, the removal of dead or dysfunctional mitochondria so they can be replaced.

再次，我想指出，这些并不是严格的规定，但如果你有魔杖并且因为你对人类健康感兴趣，让我们来谈谈其中一些可以改善葡萄糖处理和线粒体功能、线粒体自噬、去除死亡或功能失调的线粒体以便替换它们的东西。

Let's talk about the walking one first.

我们先来说说步行的。

You said 7000 steps a day.

你说每天7000步。

I don't track my steps.

我不追踪自己的脚步。

What are we really talking about there?

我们到底在谈论什么？

We're talking about taking the stairs and trying to walk as much as possible.

我们正在谈论走楼梯并尝试尽可能多地步行。

Maybe we were going to just give a really crude prescription.

也许我们只会给出一个非常粗略的处方。

You're a doctor, so you can prescribe things.

你是一名医生，所以你可以开药方。

What would you tell people to do?

你会告诉人们做什么？

How many short walks per day?

每天短途步行多少次？

Is it three?

是三个吗？

Is it five?

是五个吗？

What are we talking?

我们在说什么？

Casey Means: I would say at least three.

凯西的意思是：我想说至少三个。

I would say aiming for more than that is good, though.

不过，我想说，追求更多目标是件好事。

So to sort of just give a sense of the picture of walking — if walking were a pill, it would be the most impactful pill we've ever had in all of modern medicine.

因此，为了让大家对步行有一个大概的了解——如果步行是一种药丸，那么它将是我们在现代医学中服用过的最有影响力的药丸。

There was a paper in JAMA.

JAMA 上有一篇论文。

Sixty-three hundred participants followed for 10 to 11 years, and the people who simply walked 7000 steps per day, compared to less than that, had an up to 70% lower risk of all-cause mortality in the follow-up period.

6300 名参与者进行了为期 10 至 11 年的跟踪调查，与每天步行 7000 步以下的人相比，跟踪期间全因死亡的风险降低了 70%。

So not causality, but it's pretty incredible.

所以这不是因果关系，但这是相当令人难以置信的。

They've done follow-up research with slightly different numbers showing, again, though, like many thousands of people in the study followed for about 10 years.

他们进行了后续研究，数字略有不同，但再次显示，就像这项研究中的数千人跟踪了大约 10 年一样。

Eight thousand to 12,000 steps per day was associated with 50% to 65% lower all-cause mortality.

每天步行 8,000 至 12,000 步可将全因死亡率降低 50% 至 65%。

And this has been played out in many studies showing about a 50% reduction in Alzheimer's, dementia, obesity, type 2 diabetes, depression, cancer, gastric reflux, just all across the board.

许多研究都证实了这一点，显示阿尔茨海默氏症、痴呆症、肥胖症、2 型糖尿病、抑郁症、癌症、胃反流等疾病的发病率降低了约 50%。

And I think the key thing is that it's not about the steps, it's about the fact that muscle contraction is medicine.

我认为关键不是步骤，而是肌肉收缩是良药这一事实。

When we contract our muscles, even in a very, like, low-grade way, like walking or doing a couple air squats, you know, we're activating AMPK, and we are essentially causing that cell to have a stimulus to push glucose channels to the cell membrane.

当我们收缩肌肉时，即使是以一种非常低级的方式，比如走路或做几个空蹲，你知道，我们正在激活 AMPK，并且我们本质上是在刺激该细胞，将葡萄糖通道推向细胞膜。

Most of the time, the glucose channels are like in vesicles, in little bags inside the cells.

大多数时候，葡萄糖通道就像囊泡一样，位于细胞内的小袋中。

They're not on the cell membrane.

它们不在细胞膜上。

So of course that's going to keep the glucose in your bloodstream not being processed by the mitochondria.

因此，这当然会让血液中的葡萄糖不被线粒体处理。

So when we think about steps, it's a proxy metric for just moving more throughout the day.

因此，当我们考虑步数时，它是全天移动更多的代理指标。

So let's take two people, you have a person who's walking for one to two minutes every 30 minutes throughout the day.

让我们以两个人为例，其中一个人全天每 30 分钟步行一到两分钟。

Maybe they're exercising at the end of the day or the beginning of the day, maybe they're not.

也许他们在一天结束时或一天开始时锻炼，也许他们没有。

That person is stimulating glucose channels to be at the membrane all day.

那个人整天都在刺激膜上的葡萄糖通道。

Now let's take another person who works out really hard for one hour in the beginning or the end of the day.

现在让我们以另一个在一天开始或结束时非常努力锻炼一小时的人为例。

They feel great about it, they've checked that off their box, but they're sitting the entire rest of the day.

他们对此感觉很好，他们已经勾选了这一点，但他们一整天都坐着。

Yes, they have gotten the benefits from the exercise, but for a lot of that day, those glucose channels are inside the cell, not doing the work they could be doing.

是的，他们从锻炼中受益匪浅，但在一天的大部分时间里，这些葡萄糖通道都在细胞内，没有做他们本可以做的工作。

So I think about these little, teeny, short walking breaks or push-up breaks or air squat breaks every 30 minutes or so throughout the day, as me essentially inside the cell, pushing the glucose channels, the cell membrane, to make them constitutively active.

所以我会想到全天每 30 分钟左右进行一次小的、微小的、短暂的步行休息或俯卧撑休息或深蹲休息，因为我本质上是在细胞内部，推动葡萄糖通道和细胞膜，使它们持续活跃。

It's totally different physiology, and it's so easy.

这是完全不同的生理学，而且非常简单。

So it's not about the steps, it's about muscle contraction regularly throughout the day.

所以这不是步数的问题，而是全天定期肌肉收缩的问题。

And this has been shown out in actually more clinical research, which has taken — there's been several studies, two that I think are fascinating, where they basically took two groups and they said, okay, we're going to have you walk 20 minutes before each meal, three times a day, 20 minutes after each meal.

事实上，更多的临床研究已经证明了这一点，有几项研究，其中两项我认为很有趣，他们基本上分为两组，他们说，好吧，我们要让你在每顿饭前步行 20 分钟，每天 3 次，每顿饭后步行 20 分钟。

So that's also three times a day, or for like two minutes every 30 minutes throughout the day.

所以这也是每天 3 次，或者全天每 30 分钟大约两分钟。

Andrew Huberman: So these are three separate groups?

Andrew Huberman：那么这是三个不同的群体？

Casey Means: Three separate groups.

凯西的意思是：三个独立的群体。

Andrew Huberman: Either 20 minutes before, either 20 minutes after, or--

Andrew Huberman：要么 20 分钟前，要么 20 分钟后，或者——

Casey Means: --two to three minutes every 30 minutes.

凯西的意思是：——每 30 分钟两到三分钟。

Andrew Huberman: Okay.

安德鲁·休伯曼：好的。

Casey Means: All added up to 60 minutes of walking or light jogging a day.

凯西的意思是：每天总共步行或慢跑 60 分钟。

I'm kind of paraphrasing two different studies that showed the same thing.

我是在解释两项显示相同内容的不同研究。

One was jogging, one was walking, but it was basically chunks versus short walks every 30 minutes throughout the waking day.

一种是慢跑，一种是步行，但基本上都是在醒着的一天中每 30 分钟进行一次短距离步行。

The groups that do the short movement regularly throughout the day, even though the total time is the same across all the groups, have significantly lower 24-hour glucose level averages, 24-hour insulin level averages.

尽管所有组的总时间相同，全天定期进行短距离运动的组的 24 小时平均血糖水平和 24 小时平均胰岛素水平却显着较低。

They are metabolically healthier.

他们的新陈代谢更健康。

And I believe, and the research mechanistically has shown that it's because we're constitutively putting this, that these channels of the membrane, to take up the substrate, use the substrate.

我相信，研究从机制上表明，这是因为我们本质上放置了这些膜通道，以吸收基质，使用基质。

So this is not in to replace exercise, but I think it's a reframe.

所以这并不是要取代锻炼，但我认为这是一种重构。

I think the concept of exercise is something we're really very wedded to in our Western culture.

我认为锻炼的概念是我们西方文化中非常认同的。

And you look at more like the blue zones and the centenarians, and it's like their kind of moving is built into their everyday life.

你看起来更像是蓝色区域和百岁老人，就好像他们的这种移动已经融入了他们的日常生活。

So we've taken movement out of our everyday life as these knowledge workers, as we've been industrialized.

因此，随着我们已经工业化，作为这些知识工作者，我们已经将运动从日常生活中剔除出来。

And then we think that exercise replaces that all-day movement, but biochemically it does not.

然后我们认为锻炼可以取代全天的运动，但从生化角度来看它并没有。

So I think a big part of kind of digging ourselves out of this chronic disease mess and creating capacity for mitochondria is finding ways to take a lot of the activities we do now seated, and just find a way to do more of them moving, standing or walking.

因此，我认为，要使我们摆脱这种慢性疾病的混乱，并为线粒体创造能力，一个重要的部分就是找到方法来进行我们现在坐着做的许多活动，并找到一种方法来进行更多的移动、站立或行走。

Or if that's tough, you really need to sit at your desk all day, then every 30 minutes, taking two minutes to do some just light movement, flex those muscles, get the glucose channels of the membrane, get the mitochondria active.

或者，如果这很难，你真的需要整天坐在办公桌前，然后每隔 30 分钟，花两分钟做一些轻微的运动，弯曲那些肌肉，让细胞膜的葡萄糖通道活跃起来，让线粒体活跃起来。

So, and I think another fascinating stat is like, our gym memberships in the U.S. have doubled since the year 2000, and obesity has gone up in the same period.

所以，我认为另一个令人着迷的统计数据是，自 2000 年以来，美国的健身房会员人数增加了一倍，而同期肥胖率也有所上升。

So there's some mismatch between our obsession with exercise and our actual outcomes that we're seeing.

因此，我们对锻炼的痴迷与我们看到的实际结果之间存在一些不匹配。

And I think it's that we have not actually rebuilt constitutive movement into our daily lives.

我认为我们还没有真正将宪政运动融入到我们的日常生活中。

Andrew Huberman: Very interesting.

安德鲁·休伯曼：非常有趣。

Cause I think a lot of people are now working out, so to speak, doing resistance training, which I think is terrific.

因为我认为现在很多人都在锻炼，可以说，正在进行阻力训练，我认为这非常棒。

Casey Means: Terrific.

凯西的意思是：太棒了。

Andrew Huberman: Used to be such, you know, so restricted to niche subculture stuff like bodybuilding, preseason football, military, etc. And now it's more ubiquitous for everybody, men, women, young, old.

安德鲁·休伯曼：过去，你知道，仅限于健美、季前赛足球、军事等小众亚文化。现在它对每个人来说都更加普遍，无论男人、女人、年轻人还是老年人。

That's terrific.

太棒了。

Same thing with things like yoga and cardiovascular training.

瑜伽和心血管训练等也是如此。

I mean, I like to study the history of exercise culture, and it wasn't, but in the '60s when, you know, jogging was considered kind of like, whoa, that's like a really esoteric niche-culture thing.

我的意思是，我喜欢研究运动文化​​的历史，但事实并非如此，但在 60 年代，你知道，慢跑被认为有点像，哇，这就像一个非常深奥的利基文化。

So lots changed.

所以很多都改变了。

I love the prescriptives you gave, because it's just very straightforward.

我喜欢你给出的规定，因为它非常简单。

A couple of short walks, it just makes so much sense.

走几步路，就觉得很有意义。

And I love the visual, and I hope people will really hold it in mind.

我喜欢这个视觉效果，我希望人们能真正记住它。

So I'll reiterate it.

所以我会重申一下。

The translocation of these energy utilization stores vesicles, as you call them, these little packets from the center of the cell out to the cell surface, where then they can be involved, excuse me, in metabolic processes and the utilization of energy in ways that otherwise they wouldn't, and glucose disposal being a big part of this.

这些能量利用储存囊泡的易位，正如你所说的，这些小包从细胞中心到细胞表面，然后它们可以参与代谢过程和能量利用，否则它们不会以其他方式进行，而葡萄糖处理是其中的一个重要部分。

So I have heard that a short walk after a meal will reduce blood glucose in a way that's really dramatic.

我听说饭后散步可以显着降低血糖。

Casey Means: Huge amount, 30, 35%.

凯西的意思是：数额很大，30%、35%。

Just taking a walk around the block after a meal, that's definitely a prescription I think everyone should do, because the research is so strong on it.

饭后在街区散步，我认为这绝对是每个人都应该做的一个处方，因为这方面的研究非常有力。

Is that building in simply a 10-minute walk around the block, or a dance party in the kitchen?

绕着街区步行 10 分钟就能到达那栋大楼，还是在厨房里举办舞会？

Moving your muscles for 10 minutes after a meal can drastically reduce your glucose response.

饭后活动肌肉 10 分钟可以大大降低您的葡萄糖反应。

Cause you're just bringing all those channels to the membrane, you're taking up the glucose, you're using it.

因为你只是将所有这些通道带到膜上，你正在吸收葡萄糖，你正在使用它。

It's a whole different physiology than sitting on the couch after a meal.

这与饭后坐在沙发上是完全不同的生理学。

That's very high impact, it's high leverage if it's after a meal.

这是非常大的影响，如果是在饭后，它的杠杆作用就很大。

So I highly recommend that.

所以我强烈推荐。

And the Levels, data and clinical data has shown that out time and time again.

水平、数据和临床数据一次又一次地证明了这一点。

Andrew Huberman: Whenever I go to a city like New York, when I am forced to walk more, I always just feel so much better.

安德鲁·休伯曼：每当我去纽约这样的城市，当我被迫多走路时，我总是感觉好多了。

We also know that the optic flow that one experiences with walking has some interesting effects on the limbic pathways and quieting of some of the anxiety and stress-related pathways.

我们还知道，步行时经历的视流对边缘通路以及一些与焦虑和压力相关的通路的平静有一些有趣的影响。

This links up with things like EMDR, although there are factors that are separate from EMDR.

这与 EMDR 等内容相关，尽管有些因素与 EMDR 无关。

Basically moving through space, not outer space, but walking through space with optic flow has a certain anxiety reduction function in the brain, which, there are beautiful data there, in my opinion.

基本上在太空中移动，不是在外太空，但是用光流在太空中行走对大脑有一定的减轻焦虑的功能，在我看来，那里有漂亮的数据。

Okay, so that touches on walking.

好的，这涉及到步行。

You did mention higher intensity exercise.

您确实提到了更高强度的锻炼。

So let's keep it within the cardiovascular realm for now.

因此，现在让我们将其保留在心血管领域。

So getting heart rate way, way up, getting breathing hard for some minutes each week, maybe a couple times per week, seems that's a good way to increase mitochondrial function and mitochondrial number.

因此，让心率大幅上升，每周用力呼吸几分钟，也许每周几次，似乎是增加线粒体功能和线粒体数量的好方法。

Is that right?

是这样吗？

Casey Means: Yeah.

凯西的意思是：是啊。

So you take sort of each type of exercise.

所以你对每种类型的锻炼都进行了排序。

We've got walking, we've got resistance training, we've got high-intensity interval training, we've got endurance training, and then we've got sort of more like zone 2.

我们有步行，我们有阻力训练，我们有高强度间歇训练，我们有耐力训练，然后我们有更像2区的训练。

So we've got these different flavors of how we get our heart rate up, how we get the blood flowing, what we signal to the cells.

因此，我们对如何提高心率、如何使血液流动以及向细胞发出什么信号有不同的看法。

And each one actually has a slightly different impact on the mitochondria.

实际上，每一种对线粒体的影响都略有不同。

When we think about biogenesis, we're thinking mostly like endurance exercise and really more of that zone 2.

当我们考虑生物起源时，我们想到的主要是耐力运动，实际上更多的是第二区。

And like, that is really going to be a stimulus inside the cell to print more mitochondria.

就像，这确实会刺激细胞内部打印更多线粒体。

When we think about improving mitochondrial fusion, high-intensity interval training is really, really good for that.

当我们考虑改善线粒体融合时，高强度间歇训练确实非常有帮助。

When we think about resistance training, it's like, that's like muscle hypertrophy.

当我们想到阻力训练时，就像肌肉肥大一样。

We're going to be creating more muscle cells and we need more mitochondria for those.

我们将创造更多的肌肉细胞，为此我们需要更多的线粒体。

So each one has kind of a different impact.

因此，每一种都有不同的影响。

And I think this is where, honestly, I think the regular guidelines that we have, even by our government, you know, actually make a lot of sense.

老实说，我认为这就是我们的常规指导方针，甚至是我们政府的指导方针，实际上很有意义。

It's like, work every major muscle group three times a week in a resistance-type training, and then work to get 75 to 150 minutes of moderate strenuous activity.

这就像，每周对每个主要肌肉群进行三次阻力训练，然后进行 75 至 150 分钟的中等强度活动。

So 75 minutes of strenuous activity, or 150 minutes per week of moderate activity.

因此，每周 75 分钟的剧烈活动，或每周 150 分钟的适度活动。

So that actually makes a lot of sense.

所以这实际上很有意义。

Eighty percent of Americans are not meeting those very basic guidelines, and 20% of Americans don't get any physical activity, really at all.

百分之八十的美国人没有遵守这些非常基本的准则，百分之二十的美国人根本没有进行任何体育锻炼。

Activity for the average American is 3000 to 4000 steps per day, which is less than 2 miles.

美国人平均每天的活动量为 3000 至 4000 步，即不到 2 英里。

So we are not even close to even meeting the basic recommendations that are out there, but I think those are pretty reasonable.

因此，我们甚至还没有接近满足现有的基本建议，但我认为这些建议相当合理。

Resistance training two to three times a week, most major muscle groups, and working to, you know, get the, get the heart rate up, moderate level for 150 minutes a week or strenuous for 75 minutes a week.

每周进行 2 到 3 次阻力训练，针对大多数主要肌肉群，并努力提高心率，中等水平每周 150 分钟，或者剧烈水平每周 75 分钟。

Those are going, together, to be potent stimuli for biogenesis, mitophagy, mitochondrial fusion, for increasing antioxidant enzymes that are going to protect the mitochondria from that oxidative stress.

这些将共同成为生物发生、线粒体自噬、线粒体融合的有效刺激物，以增加抗氧化酶，从而保护线粒体免受氧化应激。

And the one that's just actually not in there in the basic recommendations for Americans is the walking.

而对美国人的基本建议中实际上没有包含步行。

And I would just absolutely add to that at least 7000 steps per day based on what the data is showing, which honestly would probably take less than an hour total to do.

根据数据显示的情况，我绝对会每天至少增加 7000 步，老实说，这总共可能需要不到一个小时才能完成。

If you break it up throughout the day it's just a few minutes a day.

如果你把它分解成一整天，那么每天只需几分钟。

So that right there is going to be like a big, multifaceted set of signals for increasing mitochondrial capacity in different ways.

因此，这将像一组大的、多方面的信号，以不同的方式增加线粒体的能力。

Andrew Huberman: Terrific.

安德鲁·休伯曼：太棒了。

What are your thoughts on under-the-desk treadmilling?

您对办公桌下跑步有何看法？

I don't own one of these, and I try and get walks, and I definitely do my three resistance-training sessions per week.

我没有这些，我试着去散步，而且我每周都会进行三次阻力训练。

Different muscle groups on different days.

不同的日子有不同的肌肉群。

So it ends up being each muscle group is hit directly once and indirectly a second time.

所以最终每个肌肉群都会受到一次直接打击，第二次间接打击。

But I like to do a long hike once on the weekend, run in the middle of the week.

但我喜欢在周末进行一次长途徒步旅行，然后在周中跑步。

That's 30, maybe 35 minutes and then some VO2 max really short workout.

那是 30 分钟，也许 35 分钟，然后是一些非常短的最大摄氧量锻炼。

Twelve minutes total.

总共十二分钟。

Where basically I'm just going for the feeling that my heart is going to jump out of my chest and I'm going to die from gasping for air, but luckily thus far I haven't died.

基本上，我只是为了感觉我的心脏要跳出胸腔，我要因喘气而死，但幸运的是，到目前为止我还没有死。

Nonetheless, the total time commitment isn't that great, but I find that I'm at a desk a lot and I have a standing desk.

尽管如此，总的时间投入并不是很多，但我发现我经常坐在办公桌前，而且我有一张站立式办公桌。

Is it wise to get a treadmill, to treadmill under the desk?

买一台跑步机，放在桌子下面，明智吗？

Seems like it would be one of the best things one could do.

看起来这将是一个人能做的最好的事情之一。

Casey Means: I'm a massive fan of under-treadmill desks because genuinely I believe that if we move more of our daily activities that we're doing seated indoors to outdoors moving, it would radically change the health of the United States with real physiology underneath it.

凯西的意思是：我是跑步机下办公桌的超级粉丝，因为我真诚地相信，如果我们将更多坐在室内进行的日常活动转移到户外，这将从根本上改变美国的健康状况，并从根本上改变美国的健康状况。

So there's actually been research on under-desk, standing desks.

事实上，人们对桌下站立式办公桌进行了研究。

That is pretty interesting.

这很有趣。

Small studies but they took a handful of people, I think it was around 10, in a workplace environment and they had them use under-desk treadmills for two and a half hours per day during the workday.

小型研究，但他们在工作环境中进行了少数人（我认为大约是 10 人），并让他们在工作日每天使用桌下跑步机两个半小时。

So not a lot at very slow speeds for two weeks, and people lost on average 2.6 pounds of fat and put on 2.2 pounds of lean mass--

因此，在两周内，以非常慢的速度减掉的东西并不多，人们平均减掉了 2.6 磅的脂肪，增加了 2.2 磅的瘦体重——

Andrew Huberman: --wild--

安德鲁·休伯曼：——狂野——

Casey Means: --in a very short period of time.

凯西的意思是：——在很短的时间内。

The study makes a somewhat wild claim that if this were extrapolated to a year, we anticipate that we could see a loss of 44 to 66 pounds.

该研究提出了一个有点疯狂的说法，即如果将其推算到一年，我们预计会减重 44 至 66 磅。

Andrew Huberman: Assuming it's linear progression.

Andrew Huberman：假设是线性进展。

Casey Means: Exactly.

凯西的意思是：没错。

Andrew Huberman: Which is not.

安德鲁·休伯曼：这不是。

Which is not the case, folks.

事实并非如此，伙计们。

Casey Means: But that's why I'm saying it was a pretty...

凯西的意思是：但这就是为什么我说这是一个漂亮的......

but that was there in the discussion.

但这已经在讨论中了。

But I think that short period is quite interesting.

但我觉得那段短暂的时光还是很有趣的。

So that's pretty significant.

所以这非常重要。

And that's just for two and a half hours a day.

而这只是每天两个半小时。

So I think now that they're about $150 on Amazon, these under-desk treadmills, I think for anyone who's a knowledge worker, it's a good thing to have at your house.

所以我认为现在这些台下跑步机在亚马逊上的售价约为 150 美元，我认为对于任何知识工作者来说，在家里拥有它都是一件好事。

And the way I use it is like I basically just force myself to start my day on the treadmill desk and I say to myself, if I don't like it after five minutes, I'll sit down if I need to sit, but I'll start and just see how it feels.

我使用它的方式就像我基本上只是强迫自己在跑步机办公桌上开始新的一天，我对自己说，如果五分钟后我不喜欢它，如果我需要坐下，我会坐下来，但我会开始看看感觉如何。

And then an hour goes by and I've forgotten I'm even on it.

然后一个小时过去了，我什至忘记了我正在做这件事。

Andrew Huberman: Is that right?

安德鲁·休伯曼：是这样吗？

So you're able to work without thinking about having to treadmill?

那么您可以在工作时不用考虑跑步机吗？

Casey Means: I am putting it at such a slow speed, I think I'm usually walking at like, I mean, it's very, very, glacially slow.

凯西的意思是：我的速度非常慢，我想我通常走路的速度，我的意思是，它非常非常缓慢。

I do put my Oura Ring on my second toe when I do this because otherwise it doesn't count my steps.

当我这样做时，我会把我的大环戴在我的第二个脚趾上，因为否则它不会计算我的步数。

Because if your hands are at your desk, it won't count your steps because--

因为如果你的手放在办公桌上，它就不会计算你的步数，因为——

Andrew Huberman: --the Oura Ring's measuring hand--

安德鲁·休伯曼：——大浦环的测量手——

Casey Means: --accelerometry, yeah, but it's incredible how even at a 1mph speed, after two to three hours you're easily gonna get 6, 7, 8000 steps, and then throw in a couple other short walks throughout the day and you're getting there easily.

凯西的意思是：——加速测量，是的，但令人难以置信的是，即使以 1 英里/小时的速度，两到三个小时后，您也可以轻松地走 6、7、8000 步，然后在一天中再进行几次短距离步行，您就可以轻松到达目的地。

So it's just a great way to build back in what modernity took away.

因此，这是重建现代性所夺走的东西的好方法。

And that unfortunately is unavoidable, that regular movement for good physiology.

不幸的是，为了良好的生理机能而进行的定期运动是不可避免的。

So I'm a big fan of them, and the data suggests that for a couple hours a day they can actually have an impact on body composition, which I think is a great, easy, inexpensive thing for people to do.

所以我是它们的忠实粉丝，数据表明，每天几个小时它们实际上可以对身体成分产生影响，我认为这对人们来说是一件伟大、简单、廉价的事情。

But if you don't want to buy one, just set those timers and build in the walks throughout the day outside.

但如果您不想购买，只需设置计时器并全天在户外散步即可。

Andrew Huberman: Terrific.

安德鲁·休伯曼：太棒了。

Yeah, I'm a fan of getting walks when I can.

是的，只要有机会，我就喜欢散步。

I also, I wonder your thoughts on, there was a study, I'm not sure if you're familiar with it, published at the University of Houston, where they looked at what they called soleus push-ups, at which all the gym goers are going to roll their eyes.

我也想知道你的想法，休斯敦大学发表了一项研究，我不确定你是否熟悉它，他们研究了所谓的比目鱼肌俯卧撑，所有健身的人都会翻白眼。

Imagine sitting down and pressing your toe against the ground and raising your heel.

想象一下坐下来，将脚趾压在地面上，然后抬起脚跟。

So kind of like seated calf raise, but no weight, right under the desk.

有点像坐姿提踵，但没有重量，就在桌子下面。

And this study had some remarkable claims and conclusions, which included, as I recall, that the activation of this muscle, the soleus, which makes up about 1% of the body's total musculature is involved.

这项研究有一些值得注意的主张和结论，其中包括，我记得，比目鱼肌的激活参与其中，该肌肉约占身体总肌肉组织的 1%。

It caused rather a disproportionate use of blood glucose.

它导致了血糖的过度使用。

So it mobilized blood glucose in a good way.

所以它很好地调动了血糖。

And the idea was, if people would, it's not just bouncing your knee, but would actively push their toes against the ground and raise their heels as they were seated and doing work, that somehow there would be a positive effect on metabolism and blood glucose utilization.

我们的想法是，如果人们愿意，那么不仅仅是弹动膝盖，而是在坐着工作时积极地将脚趾推向地面并抬起脚后跟，这会对新陈代谢和血糖利用产生积极影响。

I talked a little bit about this on social media and a few other podcasts, and it was interesting to see the sort of attacks that I got.

我在社交媒体和其他一些播客上谈到了这一点，看到我受到的攻击很有趣。

People really didn't like the idea that this was any different than so-called NEAT (non-exercise activated thermogenesis).

人们真的不喜欢这与所谓的 NEAT（非运动激活产热）有任何不同的想法。

So it's known that people that fidget a lot or move around a lot burn a lot of calories.

众所周知，经常坐立不安或经常走动的人会燃烧大量卡路里。

This actually goes back to some really beautiful work several decades or more ago from Rothwell and Stock, who talked about the fact that animals and people who fidget a lot burn a lot of energy.

这实际上可以追溯到几十年前罗斯韦尔和斯托克的一些非常漂亮的工作，他们谈到了这样一个事实：动物和人经常坐立不安会燃烧大量能量。

They tend to be thinner, they tend to have lower adipose tissue stores, and it's because they're just burning a lot more calories.

他们往往更瘦，脂肪组织储存量也较低，这是因为他们燃烧了更多的卡路里。

And this is actually what people who suffer from anorexia, which is, by the way, the most deadly of the psychiatric conditions — so we're talking about true anorexia — are encouraged not to do, because they either do it spontaneously, or they learn that it's a very efficient way to burn calories, and that's not what they need.

这实际上是那些患有厌食症的人被鼓励不要做的事情，顺便说一句，厌食症是最致命的精神疾病——所以我们谈论的是真正的厌食症——因为他们要么自发地这样做，要么他们知道这是一种非常有效的燃烧卡路里的方式，而这不是他们所需要的。

But many people do need to burn more calories.

但许多人确实需要燃烧更多的卡路里。

So, bouncing the knee, that thing that drives everybody crazy if you're not the one doing it, soleus push-ups.

所以，弹动膝盖，比目鱼肌俯卧撑，如果你不是这样做的人，那会让每个人发疯的。

What are your thoughts about this in that study?

您对此研究有何看法？

We don't have to pick it apart in detail, but I thought it was kind of interesting.

我们不必详细剖析它，但我认为它很有趣。

It's all coming back to just moving the body as much as possible during the day.

这一切都回到了白天尽可能多地活动身体。

Contracting muscles, contracting muscles.

收缩肌肉，收缩肌肉。

Casey Means: Contracting muscles.

凯西的意思是：收缩肌肉。

It's medicine.

这是药。

I find the concept of NEAT just endlessly fascinating, because we kind of come up with this term "non-exercise activity thermogenesis," and the data is really good about it.

我发现 NEAT 的概念非常令人着迷，因为我们提出了“非运动活动产热”这个术语，而且数据非常好。

It basically shows that this is a prime potential intervention for the obesity epidemic.

它基本上表明这是对肥胖流行的主要潜在干预措施。

And it all goes back to the cell.

这一切都回到了细胞。

It's essentially a stimulus that's telling the body to stay metabolically active as opposed to keeping all those metabolic pathways, you know, dormant during the day.

它本质上是一种刺激，告诉身体保持代谢活跃，而不是让所有这些代谢途径在白天处于休眠状态。

And I think that it is funny, though, that we have these acronyms for basically, like, this is just the way life was 100 years ago.

不过，我认为很有趣的是，我们有这些缩写词，基本上是这样的，就像 100 年前的生活就是这样。

If you look at the 1800s, almost 100% of Americans lived on a farm, basically, like pre-industrialization, pre-urbanization, most Americans, not 100%, but close, lived.

如果你看看1800年代，几乎100%的美国人生活在农场里，基本上，就像工业化前、城市化前一样，大多数美国人，不是100%，但接近，生活着。

They grew some of their own food.

他们自己种植一些食物。

They lived either on a farm or had a large garden.

他们要么住在农场，要么拥有一个大花园。

Now that number is less than 1%.

现在这个数字还不到1%。

So, like, movement was just built into everything we did.

所以，就像我们所做的一切都融入了运动一样。

And you think from there, like, what has happened?

然后你会想，发生了什么？

Like, we were outside, we were moving.

就像，我们在外面，我们在移动。

Our activities of daily living involved movement.

我们的日常生活活动涉及运动。

And if you just take the grocery example, then it moved to, like, okay, maybe farmers markets and sort of like, you know, outdoor open-air markets.

如果你只以杂货店为例，那么它就会转移到，好吧，也许是农贸市场，或者有点像，你知道，户外露天市场。

Then it's supermarkets, then it's.

然后是超市，然后是。

Now it's literally buying food online with the click of the button.

现在，它实际上是通过点击按钮在线购买食物。

And now some people aren't even doing that.

现在有些人甚至不这样做。

They're literally on the food delivered to them with Uber Eats.

他们确实依赖 Uber Eats 优食送来的食物。

So at every level, we've taken away movement from everyday life, and now we have sort of an acronym to bring it back in.

因此，在各个层面上，我们都从日常生活中取消了运动，现在我们用某种缩写词将其带回来。

But really, it's about just giving the body stimuli that the cells have been entrained to expect throughout all of human history and building them back into our modern life.

但实际上，这只是给予身体细胞在整个人类历史中一直期待的刺激，并将它们重新融入我们的现代生活。

So I think NEAT, it's incredibly important, and I think it also brings up this point that is so critical, which is, like, I really think our way out of this chronic disease epidemic, and even for people who are listening, don't have a chronic disease.

所以我认为 NEAT 非常重要，而且我认为它也提出了非常关键的一点，那就是，我真的认为我们摆脱这种慢性病流行的方法，即使对于正在倾听的人来说，也没有慢性病。

Any real chronic symptoms we're dealing with.

我们正在处理的任何真正的慢性症状。

And just the fact that we're not feeling as good as we could.

事实上，我们的感觉并没有达到我们应有的水平。

The way out is pretty simple.

出路很简单。

It's some of these basic things like walking more throughout the day, moving more throughout the day, getting outside, you know, eating clean, unpoisoned food.

其中一些基本的事情，比如全天多走路，全天多运动，出去走走，吃干净、无毒的食物。

A lot of these things that have the best data are so simple.

很多拥有最佳数据的事情都非常简单。

And I think it's, like, really important to just always remember, like, the game and the industry.

我认为永远记住游戏和行业非常重要。

It's all about how complex can we make it, like, specialization, talking about some of the minutiae.

这完全取决于我们能把它变得多么复杂，比如专业化，谈论一些细节。

But, like, at the end of the day, all the simple habits that we know are healthy fundamentally improve cellular biology.

但是，归根结底，我们所知道的所有健康的简单习惯都能从根本上改善细胞生物学。

And some of these things, like the NEAT, the walking, it's emblematic of the fact that some of the simplest solutions are the ones that are by far the most effective.

其中一些事情，比如 NEAT、步行，象征着这样一个事实：一些最简单的解决方案也是迄今为止最有效的解决方案。

And I think the biggest misconception in healthcare right now is that the way out and the way to get really back to true incredible health is complicated.

我认为目前医疗保健领域最大的误解是，真正恢复真正令人难以置信的健康的出路和方法很复杂。

Like, it's really not that complicated.

好像，其实没那么复杂。

We've got to move more throughout the day.

我们必须全天多活动。

That's one of them.

这是其中之一。

You know, on each pillar that we touched on earlier, food, sleep, all of this, you know, when we talk about the simple habits that we know work, the reason they work is because they all positively impact the mitochondria.

你知道，在我们之前提到的每个支柱上，食物、睡眠，所有这些，你知道，当我们谈论我们知道有效的简单习惯时，它们之所以有效，是因为它们都对线粒体产生积极影响。

They positively impact oxidative stress, they positively impact inflammation.

它们对氧化应激产生积极影响，对炎症产生积极影响。

So, yeah, I love it.

所以，是的，我喜欢它。

Andrew Huberman: I love simple solutions that hit multiple cellular pathways that can make everybody healthier.

Andrew Huberman：我喜欢简单的解决方案，它可以影响多种细胞途径，使每个人都更健康。

I'd like to just take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, InsideTracker.

我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商之一 InsideTracker。

InsideTracker is a personalized nutrition platform that analyzes data from your blood and DNA to help you better understand your body and help you reach your health goals.

InsideTracker 是一个个性化营养平台，可分析您的血液和 DNA 数据，帮助您更好地了解您的身体并帮助您实现健康目标。

Now, I've long been a believer in getting regular blood work done for the simple reason that many of the factors that impact our immediate and long-term health can only be addressed, that is, can only be measured with a quality blood test.

现在，我长期以来一直相信定期进行血液检查，原因很简单，影响我们当前和长期健康的许多因素只能通过高质量的血液测试来解决，也就是说，只能通过高质量的血液测试来测量。

Now, one issue with many blood tests out there is that you get information back about lipid levels, hormone levels, metabolic factors, etc., but you don't know what to do with that information.

现在，许多血液测试的一个问题是，您会得到有关血脂水平、激素水平、代谢因素等的信息，但您不知道如何处理这些信息。

With InsideTracker, they make it very easy to understand your levels and what they mean and specific actionable items that you can undertake in order to bring those levels into the ranges that are optimal for you.

借助 InsideTracker，它们可以让您轻松了解您的级别及其含义，以及您可以采取的具体可操作项目，以便将这些级别调整到最适合您的范围。

InsideTracker also offers InsideTracker Pro, which enables coaches and health professionals to provide premium and personalized services by leveraging InsideTracker analysis and recommendations with their clients.

InsideTracker 还提供 InsideTracker Pro，使教练和健康专业人员能够利用 InsideTracker 分析和向客户提供建议来提供优质和个性化的服务。

If you'd like to try InsideTracker, you can go to insidetracker.com/huberman and you'll get 20% off any of InsideTracker plans.

如果您想尝试 InsideTracker，可以访问 insidetracker.com/huberman，任何 InsideTracker 计划均可享受 20% 的折扣。

Again, that's insidetracker.com/huberman.

同样，这是 insidetracker.com/huberman。

I'd like to talk about assessment, blood tests in particular.

我想谈谈评估，特别是血液检查。

I remember in college, I was just very curious about blood testing, and I had read a little bit about it, but it was really hard to access.

我记得在大学时，我对血液检测非常好奇，我读过一些相关内容，但真的很难接触到。

I actually went to the student health center and said, can I just get my lipids measured, some hormone stuff measured?

我实际上去了学生健康中心并说，我可以测量我的血脂，测量一些激素吗？

I was in great health.

我身体很好。

I want to do that.

我想这么做。

And they're like, no, what's the issue?

他们说，不，有什么问题吗？

Why would you do that?

你为什么要这么做？

Now it's very easy to find places that will do blood tests, but there is often some cost.

现在很容易找到进行血液检查的地方，但通常需要一些费用。

And nowadays, thanks to your efforts, your innovative and engineering efforts, and the efforts of others, there are ways to measure what's in your blood, blood glucose in particular, with continuous monitoring and with snapshot monitoring.

如今，由于您的努力、您的创新和工程努力以及其他人的努力，我们有了一些方法可以通过连续监测和快照监测来测量您的血液中的成分，特别是血糖。

So, let's talk about blood tests.

那么，我们来谈谈血液检查。

What do you think are the three to five things that basically everybody, if they can, should know about what's circulating in their blood?

您认为基本上每个人（如果可以的话）都应该了解自己血液中循环的三到五件事是什么？

I'm imagining LDL, HDL, this kind of thing, I guess.

我猜想是低密度脂蛋白、高密度脂蛋白，诸如此类的东西。

APO B is a big favorite of our friend Peter Attia.

APO B 是我们的朋友 Peter Attia 的最爱。

Fasting blood glucose, continuous blood glucose, postmeal, etc. Just kind of evaluating how exercise, food, etc. impacts blood glucose.

空腹血糖、连续血糖、餐后血糖等。只是评估运动、食物等如何影响血糖。

And then I'll leave the other categories open, because my point here is not to answer the question, but that's what comes to mind.

然后我将保留其他类别，因为我在这里的目的不是回答这个问题，但这就是我想到的。

Casey Means: You've got the big ones.

凯西的意思是：你有大的。

So this is key, is that every single person listening, I hope, after this episode, will go to their health record or send their doctor a message and at least get the following test.

所以这是关键，我希望每个听话的人，在这一集之后，都会查看他们的健康记录或向他们的医生发送消息，并至少进行以下测试。

And the first seven that I'll mention are very basic, and people might take umbrage to them, because obviously, there's a lot of debate about, like, what's everyone's favorite lab tests.

我要提到的前七个是非常基本的，人们可能会对它们感到不满，因为显然，关于每个人最喜欢的实验室测试是什么有很多争论。

But I think about it as, like, what are the basics that everyone should know?

但我认为，每个人都应该了解哪些基础知识？

And then what's, like, the next tier up that are easy to access and are cheap, that'll give you a lot more richness, but which you still might have to kind of fight your doctor for?

然后，下一层是怎样的，很容易获得，而且很便宜，会给你带来更多的财富，但你仍然可能需要与你的医生斗争？

So the first few that you will not have to fight your doctor for, and are often free on an annual physical and literally define metabolic syndrome, are fasting glucose, fasting triglycerides, HDL cholesterol, hemoglobin, A1C, total cholesterol, waist circumference, and blood pressure.

因此，您无需与医生争辩的前几项指标是空腹血糖、空腹甘油三酯、高密度脂蛋白胆固醇、血红蛋白、糖化血红蛋白、总胆固醇、腰围和血压，并且通常可以免费进行年度体检和字面上定义的代谢综合征。

Andrew Huberman: Okay, sorry, I hate to interrupt, and my audience hates it even more, but I'm gonna just.

安德鲁·休伯曼：好吧，抱歉，我讨厌打断，而且我的观众更讨厌打断，但我只想打断。

Could you just explain what each of those is and what it corresponds to?

您能解释一下每一个是什么以及它们对应什么吗？

Casey Means: Yes.

凯西的意思是：是的。

Andrew Huberman: Great.

安德鲁·休伯曼： 太好了。

Thank you.

谢谢。

Casey Means: And I will say, first of all, the reason I'm choosing these, it's not even my own choice, really.

凯西的意思是：首先，我要说的是，我选择这些的原因，实际上，这甚至不是我自己的选择。

It's two reasons.

有两个原因。

One is that the two studies over the past five years that have shown us, in large populations, that the vast majority of American adults are metabolically dysfunctional use those biomarkers.

一是过去五年的两项研究向我们表明，在大量人群中，绝大多数美国成年人都存在代谢功能障碍，这些研究都使用了这些生物标志物。

So I think because of that, it's important to know them.

所以我认为正因为如此，了解他们很重要。

And the two studies that I'm referring to are one from UNC, in 2018, which showed that based on those biomarkers, 88% of American adults have suboptimal metabolism.

我指的两项研究是北卡罗来纳大学 2018 年的一项研究，该研究表明，根据这些生物标志物，88% 的美国成年人的新陈代谢不佳。

And then a follow-up study from the Journal of the American College of Cardiology from last year showed that that number has gone to 93.2% of American adults are suboptimal in their metabolism.

去年《美国心脏病学会杂志》的一项后续研究表明，这一数字已达到 93.2% 的美国成年人的新陈代谢状况不佳。

And these are the metrics that they use, and they're very basic.

这些是他们使用的指标，而且非常基本。

If you had to pay out of pocket, they would be less than $100.

如果你必须自掏腰包，费用将不到 100 美元。

So let's talk through them.

那么让我们来谈谈它们。

Why they're great is because together they give you kind of like a tapestry of what's actually happening inside the cell.

它们之所以伟大，是因为它们共同为您提供了一种细胞内实际发生的情况的挂毯。

If you choose to look at them that way, if you read the tea leaves of them, the doctors often, if they see all these lab tests, it'll be in an electronic health record.

如果您选择以这种方式看待它们，如果您阅读它们的茶叶，医生通常会看到所有这些实验室测试，这些测试将记录在电子健康记录中。

We've all been through this experience.

我们都经历过这样的经历。

They'll come up on the screen and there will either be like a green, orange, or red color next to it.

它们会出现在屏幕上，旁边会有绿色、橙色或红色。

Like, it's high, it's low, it's borderline.

比如，它是高的，它是低的，它是边缘的。

And the doctor will basically, it's very algorithmic.

医生基本上会，这是非常算法化的。

Oh, you know, your LDL is high.

哦，你知道，你的低密度脂蛋白胆固醇很高。

We need to bring it down.

我们需要把它打下来。

Oh, your glucose is high.

哦，你的血糖很高。

We need to bring it down.

我们需要把它打下来。

Oh, your blood pressure's high.

噢，你的血压很高。

We need to bring it down.

我们需要把它打下来。

But what I'm inviting people to do is understand a little bit about each test and then read the tea leaves of what it's telling us about our mitochondria.

但我邀请人们做的是稍微了解一下每项测试，然后阅读它告诉我们有关线粒体的信息。

So let's start with fasting glucose.

那么让我们从空腹血糖开始吧。

So, fasting glucose, when you look at these studies that I'm referring to, they call optimal less than 100.

所以，当你看看我提到的这些研究时，他们称最佳空腹血糖低于 100。

So to define whether you were in that 88 or 93%, you had to essentially be in their optimal range for all biomarkers not on medication.

因此，要确定您是处于 88% 还是 93% 的范围内，您必须基本上处于所有未服用药物的生物标志物的最佳范围内。

So I'll quickly run through what their ranges were.

所以我将快速浏览一下他们的范围。

My ranges for optimal are tighter than these, but fasting glucose, less than 100.

我的最佳范围比这些更严格，但空腹血糖低于 100。

Triglycerides less than 150.

甘油三酯低于150。

HDL above 40 for men or 50 for women.

HDL 男性高于 40，女性高于 50。

Hemoglobin A1C, less than 5.7%.

糖化血红蛋白，低于5.7%。

Total cholesterol-to-HDL ratio less than 3.5 to one.

总胆固醇与高密度脂蛋白的比率低于 3.5 比 1。

Waist circumference less than 35 inches for women or 40 inches for men, and blood pressure less than 120 over 80.

女性腰围小于 35 英寸，男性腰围小于 40 英寸，血压低于 120 高于 80。

If those things were in those ranges and you weren't on medication for blood sugar or blood pressure or whatnot, you were considered optimally, metabolically healthy.

如果这些东西在这些范围内，并且您没有服用治疗血糖或血压或其他药物的药物，那么您被认为处于最佳代谢健康状态。

That's now 6.8% of Americans.

现在这个比例是 6.8% 的美国人。

All of these biomarkers are easy to change in one to two months, I would say, with simple lifestyle habits.

我想说，只要有简单的生活习惯，所有这些生物标志物都很容易在一到两个月内改变。

Andrew Huberman: Could you remind us what hemoglobin A1C is?

Andrew Huberman：您能提醒我们什么是糖化血红蛋白吗？

I think most people are familiar with HDL cholesterol being the "good" cholesterol and LDL being the "bad" cholesterol.

我认为大多数人都熟悉高密度脂蛋白胆固醇是“好”胆固醇，低密度脂蛋白胆固醇是“坏”胆固醇。

And as I say that, I know I'm going to get dogpiled.

当我这么说的时候，我知道我会被围困。

Casey Means: Yeah.

凯西的意思是：是啊。

Oh, totally.

哦，完全可以。

Andrew Huberman: I'm not sure that I adhere to that.

Andrew Huberman：我不确定我是否坚持这一点。

I'm not sure.

我不知道。

I don't adhere to that.

我不坚持这一点。

I'm not sure about a lot of things, but I am sure that most people think of them that way.

我不确定很多事情，但我确信大多数人都是这样想的。

So just to stay functional here, we'll frame it that way for now.

因此，为了保持这里的功能，我们现在就这样构建它。

With the caveat that that might not be the whole story, isn't the whole story, but triglycerides, fat in the blood, fatty stuff.

需要注意的是，这可能不是故事的全部，不是故事的全部，而是甘油三酯、血液中的脂肪、脂肪物质。

Casey Means: But so, key to understand about the triglycerides, it's not, we don't want to confuse triglycerides with eating more fat.

凯西的意思是：但是，了解甘油三酯的关键不是，我们不想将甘油三酯与摄入更多脂肪混淆。

Triglycerides are a storage form of excess carbohydrates in the blood.

甘油三酯是血液中过量碳水化合物的储存形式。

This is why it can tell us something about, and I know you and Rob Lustig talked about this at length, but it's--

这就是为什么它可以告诉我们一些事情，我知道你和罗布·勒斯蒂格详细讨论了这个问题，但它是——

Andrew Huberman: --and Layne Norton--

安德鲁·休伯曼：——和莱恩·诺顿——

Casey Means: --and Layne, yeah.

凯西的意思是：——还有莱恩，是的。

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, I mean, one of the things that's really tricky, gosh, is that the language around nutrition and health is complicated because people hear the word "fat," they think body fat, right?

安德鲁·胡伯曼：是的，我的意思是，真正棘手的事情之一，天哪，关于营养和健康的语言很复杂，因为人们听到“脂肪”这个词，他们认为身体脂肪，对吧？

But then they also think of macronutrient fat.

但随后他们也想到了常量营养素脂肪。

We just need more words to better parse totally the reality.

我们只需要更多的文字来更好地解析现实。

In biology, we call the two major groups of people lumpers and splitters.

在生物学中，我们将这两类主要人群称为“混杂者”和“分裂者”。

Lumpers like to lump everything together.

混杂者喜欢把所有东西都混在一起。

It oversimplifies and complicates.

它过于简单化和复杂化。

Splitters like to split everything, give a name for everything, individual name for everything.

分裂者喜欢分裂一切，为一切命名，为一切命名。

It complicates.

这让事情变得复杂了。

And so there's a middle ground, right?

所以有一个中间立场，对吧？

There's a land of reasonable people and nomenclature.

这片土地上充满了通情达理的人民和术语。

And unfortunately, that does not exist on the internet, nor does it exist in any one specific subfield of medicine or science.

不幸的是，这在互联网上不存在，也不存在于医学或科学的任何特定子领域。

I mean, so much of the confusion out in the world is because of a lack of adequate language in order to explain, okay, so the triglycerides are a reflection of excess carbohydrate intake.

我的意思是，世界上如此多的混乱是因为缺乏足够的语言来解释，所以甘油三酯是碳水化合物摄入过多的反映。

Casey Means: And how it's helping us with that tapestry of understanding the trifecta of bad energy is that if you think about it, let's just go back to that cell and that poor mitochondria that's being absolutely decimated by our environment, and its capacity is low.

凯西的意思是：它如何帮助我们理解坏能量的三重奏，如果你想一想，让我们回到那个细胞和那个可怜的线粒体，它们正在被我们的环境彻底摧毁，而且它的能力很低。

Okay, so that mitochondria is like, I can't process glucose or fatty acids to ATP very well, so I'm going to block their entry into the cell.

好吧，线粒体就像，我不能很好地将葡萄糖或脂肪酸加工成 ATP，所以我要阻止它们进入细胞。

So now you've got glucose rising in the bloodstream.

现在血液中的葡萄糖含量上升。

So, okay, fasting glucose.

所以，好吧，空腹血糖。

That was one of our biomarkers.

那是我们的生物标志物之一。

If that's going up, that is a little bit of that tapestry of maybe something's going on inside the cell that's blocking the entry into the cell.

如果数值上升，则表明细胞内可能发生了某些事情，阻碍了细胞的进入。

So it's rising in the bloodstream.

所以它在血液中上升。

Okay, well, where's all that?

好吧，好吧，这些都在哪里？

The body does not want lots of glucose floating around in the bloodstream because it can literally independently cause endothelial dysfunction, which is basically blood vessel problems.

身体不希望大量葡萄糖漂浮在血液中，因为它实际上可以独立导致内皮功能障碍，这基本上是血管问题。

It can cause oxidative stress in the bloodstream.

它会导致血液中的氧化应激。

It can cause glycation, which is sugar, literally just sticking to things.

它会引起糖化，也就是糖，实际上只是粘在东西上。

The body doesn't want that glucose high in the bloodstream, so it converts it to triglycerides to be stored in a storage form of energy.

身体不希望血液中的葡萄糖含量过高，因此会将其转化为甘油三酯，以能量的形式储存。

That's a key point that I think is helpful to understand, is that the body, it's always trying to, like, kind of keep things in the right range, so it'll convert things.

我认为这是有助于理解的一个关键点，那就是身体总是试图将事物保持在正确的范围内，这样它就会改变事物。

So then triglycerides — a picture in your blood of glucose being high and triglycerides being high is very much should signal to everyone when they look at their labs that there's probably something going on inside the cell that's blocking the cell from being able to use and process.

那么甘油三酯——血液中葡萄糖和甘油三酯高的图像应该向每个人发出信号，当他们查看实验室时，细胞内部可能发生了一些事情，阻碍了细胞的使用和处理。

It's a sign of mitochondrial dysfunction and chronic overnutrition.

这是线粒体功能障碍和慢性营养过剩的迹象。

Too much substrate, not enough processing.

基材太多，加工不够。

Glucose is going to go up.

血糖会上升。

Triglycerides are going to go up.

甘油三酯将会上升。

So then if you kind of squint and read the tea leaves, it's like, huh, I think metabolic dysfunction.

所以如果你眯着眼睛看茶叶，就会觉得，嗯，我认为是代谢功能障碍。

And what's fascinating is that the travesty in our healthcare system is that a patient might go into the doctor and their fasting glucose is 99, one point under what we'd consider the normal range.

令人着迷的是，我们医疗保健系统中的一个讽刺之处在于，患者去看医生时，他们的空腹血糖为 99，比我们认为的正常范围低了一个点。

And their triglycerides are 149, one point under what we'd consider the normal range.

他们的甘油三酯为 149，比我们认为的正常范围低一点。

From these things that doctor might say to that patient, you're totally fine.

从医生可能会对病人说的这些话来看，你完全没问题。

Both glucose and triglycerides are normal, but that's just really problematic because they're on the upper end of normal for both of those.

葡萄糖和甘油三酯都是正常的，但这确实是有问题的，因为它们都处于正常值的上限。

And so really what that would say to me, as someone thinking about the mitochondria is like, this person is definitely metabolically dysfunctional.

所以这对我来说真的意味着，就像一个思考线粒体的人一样，这个人肯定是代谢功能障碍的。

They're on the highest end of normal for both triglycerides and glucose.

甘油三酯和葡萄糖均处于正常值的最高值。

There's something.

有东西。

There's definitely insulin resistance going on here.

这里肯定存在胰岛素抵抗。

I would much rather see that glucose at 73 and that triglyceride at 50, which to me would say, oh, this cell is processing through energy great.

我更愿意看到葡萄糖为 73，甘油三酯为 50，这对我来说会说，哦，这个细胞正在通过能量进行巨大的处理。

And things are moving through, and we're not backing up in the bloodstream.

事情正在进展，我们并没有在血液中倒退。

We're not converting to triglycerides.

我们不会转化为甘油三酯。

So that's where really optimal ranges get in.

这就是真正最佳范围的切入点。

But so that's.

但就是这样。

So that's glucose and triglycerides, why, if those are starting to creep up, it's a sign that something is happening metabolically.

这就是葡萄糖和甘油三酯，如果它们开始上升，那就表明新陈代谢发生了变化。

And then when we look at some of the other biomarkers.

然后当我们观察其他一些生物标志物时。

So hemoglobin A1C, is really, so that's a marker that's looking at how many of the hemoglobin molecules that are in the red blood cells that carry oxygen, how many of those hemoglobin molecules have sugar stuck to them, and that's glycation.

所以血红蛋白 A1C 确实是一个标记，它观察红细胞中有多少携带氧气的血红蛋白分子，有多少血红蛋白分子粘附有糖，这就是糖化。

So you're looking at glycated hemoglobin, and you can imagine that if the concentration of glucose is higher over time, more glucose is going to stick to red blood cells, and that's going to create a higher percentage of glycated hemoglobin.

因此，您正在观察糖化血红蛋白，您可以想象，如果葡萄糖浓度随着时间的推移而升高，更多的葡萄糖将粘附在红细胞上，这将产生更高比例的糖化血红蛋白。

So that's why that lab is represented as a percentage.

这就是为什么该实验室以百分比表示的原因。

So less than 5.7 is what we want.

所以小于 5.7 就是我们想要的。

Andrew Huberman: You want those cells nice and smooth and slippery.

Andrew Huberman：你希望这些细胞漂亮、光滑、光滑。

Casey Means: Nice and smooth, no sugar stuck to them causing dysfunction.

凯西的意思是：又好又光滑，没有糖粘在上面导致功能障碍。

And because blood cells last for about nine to 120 days, hemoglobin A1C, is giving us basically a snapshot of average blood sugar levels over nine to 120 days.

由于血细胞的寿命约为 9 至 120 天，血红蛋白 A1C 基本上为我们提供了 9 至 120 天内平均血糖水平的快照。

And if that average is higher, again, probably a sign that cells are rejecting glucose from the cell and it's causing a rise in the bloodstream.

如果该平均值较高，则可能再次表明细胞正在排斥细胞中的葡萄糖，从而导致血液流量增加。

And then just talking about one other biomarker that we talked about, which was blood pressure, people might say, well, how does blood pressure relate to, like, what's going on inside the cell, you know, in the mitochondria and whatnot?

然后谈到我们谈到的另一种生物标志物，即血压，人们可能会说，好吧，血压与细胞内发生的事情有什么关系，你知道，线粒体等等？

And really, the fascinating link is that when that cell becomes insulin resistant, which, again, is a compensatory mechanism for mitochondrial dysfunction, the insulin is gonna rise in the blood because the body's insulin resistant.

事实上，令人着迷的联系是，当细胞产生胰岛素抵抗时（这又是线粒体功能障碍的补偿机制），血液中的胰岛素会升高，因为身体存在胰岛素抵抗。

So the body's gonna churn out more insulin to try and overcome the insulin block to drive the sugar into the cells.

因此，身体会产生更多的胰岛素来尝试克服胰岛素阻滞，将糖驱动到细胞中。

So insulin levels rise.

因此胰岛素水平升高。

Well, insulin is one of the key activators of nitric oxide, which is the molecule in the blood that dilates and relaxes blood vessels.

胰岛素是一氧化氮的关键激活剂之一，一氧化氮是血液中扩张和放松血管的分子。

And so when we become insulin resistant and we're not responding to that insulin signal, we end up getting less nitric oxide activity.

因此，当我们产生胰岛素抵抗并且我们对胰岛素信号没有反应时，我们最终会得到较少的一氧化氮活性。

So this is how, kind of looking at even these very basic, very cheap biomarkers, through the lens of basic cellular physiology, we can start to see, man, my body might be, like, underpowered.

所以，通过基本细胞生理学的视角，即使是这些非常基本、非常便宜的生物标记物，我们也可以开始看到，伙计，我的身体可能动力不足。

I might have a mitochondrial issue here.

我这里可能有线粒体问题。

So that's a few of those tests that we really want to shoot for.

这就是我们真正想要进行的一些测试。

Andrew Huberman: Terrific.

安德鲁·休伯曼：太棒了。

And thanks for bringing up blood pressure again.

感谢您再次提高血压。

It sort of comes across to many people as old school.

对于很多人来说，它有点像老派。

Right?

正确的？

But when Attia was here, one of the several times he was here, he really pushed on blood pressure, such a key metric, right?

但是，当阿提亚来这里的时候，他确实在血压这个关键指标上施加了压力，对吧？

I mean, obviously, if blood pressure is high, you're getting less nitric oxide through whatever means here.

我的意思是，显然，如果血压很高，无论通过什么方式，你获得的一氧化氮都会减少。

Vessels and capillaries are constricted, cells aren't able to use the energy that's coming in.

血管和毛细血管收缩，细胞无法利用进入的能量。

There's excess energy, there's buildup of metabolic waste.

能量过剩，代谢废物堆积。

There's all this stuff.

有所有这些东西。

And now we can start to see the picture starting to emerge.

现在我们可以开始看到图片开始出现。

And as you mentioned briefly, these markers can be put into healthy range or maybe even fantastic range in a very short period of time.

正如您简要提到的，这些标记可以在很短的时间内进入健康范围，甚至可能达到理想的范围。

So we'll talk about how to go about that in terms of getting a basic blood test.

因此，我们将讨论如何进行基本的血液检查。

You're a physician.

你是一名医生。

What's the secret code?

秘密代码是什么？

I'll give away one that a former guest who's also an M.D.

我将赠送一位前客人，同时也是医学博士的一个。

shared, which is oftentimes, if you ask your physician for a blood test, they will say, well, unless there's a particular need or you're struggling with something, they won't give it to you.

共享，通常情况下，如果您要求医生进行血液检查，他们会说，好吧，除非有特殊需要或您正在与某些事情作斗争，否则他们不会给您进行血液检查。

But if you have a shift from baseline in a symptom or in a number, that can help.

但如果您的症状或数字与基线发生变化，这可能会有所帮助。

All the physicians are going to come after me now, I guess with stethoscopes.

现在所有的医生都会带着听诊器来找我。

I'm willing to stand my ground.

我愿意坚持我的立场。

If you want a blood test, it's often useful to mention that there's been some marked shift.

如果您想要进行血液检查，提及存在一些明显的变化通常会很有用。

You want to be honest, but some marked shift in sleep, in lifestyle, in how you feel standing up, sitting down.

你想要诚实，但睡眠、生活方式、站着、坐下的感觉都发生了明显的变化。

I'm not trying to lace people's minds with ideas, create narratives here, but oftentimes where physicians are resistant, they'll be more amenable if they understand that, hey, like, something's changing and the patient's saying something's changing, it actually would be irresponsible of them to not give the blood test.

我并不是想用各种想法来灌输人们的思想，在这里创造叙述，但很多时候，如果医生有抵触情绪，他们会更愿意接受，如果他们明白，嘿，就像，有些事情正在发生变化，病人说有些事情正在发生变化，他们不进行血液检查实际上是不负责任的。

So there you go.

所以就这样吧。

Bring it on, M.D.s.

加油吧，医学博士们。

Casey Means: Yeah.

凯西的意思是：是啊。

Truly.

确实。

And I think the nice thing about these, again, very basic tests, and there are so many other tests that I talk about in my book and that you've talked about on your podcast, APO B, uric acid, fasting insulin, HOMA-IR, hs-CRP, liver function test, GGT, all these other tests that are great, that can really tell us more about mitochondrial dysfunction, oxidative stress, chronic inflammation.

我认为这些非常基本的测试的好处是，我在我的书中谈到了很多其他测试，您也在播客中谈到了这些测试，APO B、尿酸、空腹胰岛素、HOMA-IR、hs-CRP、肝功能测试、GGT，所有这些其他测试都很棒，它们确实可以告诉我们更多关于线粒体功能障碍、氧化应激、慢性炎症的信息。

But the ones I'm mentioning are the ones that you will not have to fight with your doctor about.

但我提到的那些是您不必与医生争论的。

Like, everything I just mentioned, like, the doctor should order on an annual physical, and it's really about us learning to actually, like, read the tea leaves of what they're saying and not look at them in this algorithmic way, but, like, how together, if they're creeping up, or if many of them are a little bit high, like, we need to focus all of our energy on improving mitochondrial capacity, basically, and bring those numbers down, which we can do very, very quickly.

就像，我刚才提到的一切，比如，医生应该安排每年一次的体检，这实际上是关于我们学习如何真正地，比如，阅读他们所说的茶叶，而不是用这种算法的方式来看待它们，但是，比如，如果它们正在悄悄上升，或者如果它们中的许多都有点高，我们需要将所有的精力集中在提高线粒体能力上，基本上，并降低这些数字，我们可以非常非常快地做到这一点。

Once you start getting the mitochondria moving through more of those substrates, a lot of them will just naturally come down.

一旦你开始让线粒体穿过更多的底物，很多底物就会自然下降。

Now, in the book, I give scripts to literally talk to your doctor with, because you are going to get pushback, often; if you ask for a fasting insulin, I would say probably, I mean, even though doctors are waking up a little bit, like, maybe 85% of people are going to have their doctors say they won't order that for them.

现在，在书中，我提供了与您的医生真正交谈的脚本，因为您经常会遇到阻力；如果你要求空腹注射胰岛素，我会说可能，我的意思是，尽管医生们已经觉醒了一点，比如，也许 85% 的人会让他们的医生说他们不会为他们开这样的药。

So I actually think there's a huge benefit.

所以我实际上认为这是一个巨大的好处。

I hate to say it, but, like, going outside the system, this is where I think innovation has been valuable.

我不想这么说，但是，就像跳出系统一样，我认为这就是创新的价值所在。

There's a lot of, like, amazing companies doing direct-to-consumer lab testing, so you can basically avoid the hassle.

有很多很棒的公司在进行直接面向消费者的实验室测试，因此您基本上可以避免这些麻烦。

And some of them are very affordable.

其中一些非常实惠。

There's Function Health, a company that's doing 110 biomarkers, including all the key metabolic biomarkers, for less than $500.

Function Health 是一家以不到 500 美元的价格生产 110 种生物标记物的公司，其中包括所有关键的代谢生物标记物。

And they'll do it twice a year, so you don't ever have to, and then they do interpretations.

他们每年会做两次，所以你不必这样做，然后他们会进行口译。

InsideTracker, Next Health, Levels is doing labs.

InsideTracker、Next Health、Levels 正在做实验室。

And so there's a lot of this springing up because I think people are sick of fighting with their doctors to get a crumb of information about their health.

因此，这种情况层出不穷，因为我认为人们已经厌倦了与医生争夺有关他们健康状况的少量信息。

And we should probably be testing these, I would say, three to four times a year.

我想说，我们可能应该每年测试三到四次。

And the beauty is that I think a lot of what keeps people down in the health world is that they're confused about what to do.

美妙之处在于，我认为人们在健康领域感到沮丧的很多原因是他们不知道该做什么。

There's a lot of noise.

有很多噪音。

There are a lot of different strategies.

有很多不同的策略。

Do I do paleo, keto, carnivore, vegan, Mediterranean?

我做原始人饮食、生酮饮食、肉食饮食、素食饮食、地中海饮食吗？

Do I do HIT or zone 2 or eccentric?

我该做HIT、2区还是偏心？

It's like there's so much noise.

好像有这么多噪音。

And the beauty with having a plan for understanding your biomarkers regularly is that you can cut through all the noise, try a strategy, see where you stand, retest in a few months, and see if you're moving in the right direction.

制定定期了解生物标志物的计划的好处在于，您可以消除所有噪音，尝试一种策略，看看您的立场，几个月后重新测试，看看您是否在朝着正确的方向前进。

Andrew Huberman: Be a scientist.

安德鲁·休伯曼：成为一名科学家。

Casey Means: You don't have to trust your doctor.

凯西的意思是：你不必相信你的医生。

You don't have to trust me.

你不必相信我。

You don't have to trust anyone.

你不必相信任何人。

You can literally trust your own labs.

您完全可以信任自己的实验室。

And I say to people, like, if your labs are optimal and the ranges I just mentioned are not optimal, like, we want to actually get to better than all of those.

我对人们说，如果你的实验室是最佳的，而我刚才提到的范围不是最佳的，比如，我们希望实际上比所有这些都更好。

If you want to be optimal, if your key metabolic biomarkers are optimal, if you feel absolutely freaking incredible and you have no symptoms, then you're probably doing the right strategy, whatever that is.

如果你想达到最佳状态，如果你的关键代谢生物标志物是最佳状态，如果你感觉绝对难以置信并且没有任何症状，那么你可能正在采取正确的策略，无论是什么。

Vegan, keto, whatever, like, and exercise and your lifestyle, because that is showing that your cells are fundamentally working properly.

素食、生酮等等，还有锻炼和你的生活方式，因为这表明你的细胞从根本上正常工作。

So I think that's just a really empowering message.

所以我认为这确实是一个充满力量的信息。

Now, there's phenomenal companies that are cropping up to basically help allow people to do this on their own schedule, which I think is really the future of health and actually will help lessen, I think, some of the intensity of the diet wars.

现在，出现了一些现象级的公司，基本上可以帮助人们按照自己的时间表做到这一点，我认为这确实是健康的未来，并且实际上将有助于减轻饮食战争的一些强度。

You know, because it's like people can just say, like, I trust my strategy.

你知道，因为人们可以直接说，我相信我的策略。

I know I'm doing what's right for me because, like, look at all my biomarkers and I feel great, you know?

我知道我正在做适合我的事情，因为，就像，看看我所有的生物标志物，我感觉很棒，你知道吗？

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, what used to be the before and after prediet exercise, postdiet exercise photos on social media are now starting to also include numbers, which is kind of interesting.

Andrew Huberman：是的，社交媒体上以前和之后的运动前和运动后照片现在也开始包含数字，这很有趣。

I mean, obviously these aren't randomized controlled trials, but it's cool to see people posting their numbers of things that are not just related to aesthetics or body weight, but are related to health metrics.

我的意思是，显然这些不是随机对照试验，但很高兴看到人们发布的一些东西不仅与美学或体重有关，而且与健康指标有关。

It's fun.

很有趣。

I think it speaks to a more scientific, or at least a more quantitative approach to things.

我认为它代表了一种更科学的，或者至少是一种更定量的处理方法。

And I think it's inspiring for people.

我认为这对人们很有启发。

Thanks for putting those scripts in the book that people can refer to.

感谢您将这些脚本放入书中供人们参考。

Let's say that I go in for these blood tests, I do the basic seven, and I find that my fasting glucose is a little high, my triglycerides are a little high, my LDL is a little high.

假设我去做这些血液检查，我做了基本的七项检查，我发现我的空腹血糖有点高，我的甘油三酯有点高，我的低密度脂蛋白有点高。

Maybe a few other things are okay.

也许其他一些事情还可以。

So I'm kind of in the, you know, not in the red zone, but I'm in the, like, you should probably pay attention to these things.

所以我有点处于，你知道，不在红色区域，但我处于，就像，你可能应该注意这些事情。

What are some of the things that one can do in order to try and move those needles in the right direction?

为了尝试将这些方向推向正确的方向，人们可以做哪些事情？

I know we talked about walking and movement before.

我知道我们之前讨论过步行和运动。

What are a few others?

其他几个是什么？

And maybe we could start to touch into nutrition a little bit, and then we'll pivot to insulin and blood glucose.

也许我们可以开始稍微接触一下营养，然后我们将转向胰岛素和血糖。

Casey Means: I think on the highest level, it's about running through what are the science-based things that we know in our environment can lead to metabolic dysfunction and take honest stock of how those factors are playing out in your life and then choose a few to start moving in a different direction.

凯西的意思是：我认为在最高层面上，这是关于我们知道在我们的环境中哪些基于科学的因素会导致代谢功能障碍，并诚实地评估这些因素如何在你的生活中发挥作用，然后选择一些因素开始朝不同的方向前进。

So the ones that I think are ones that we can really control and that are, we know, based on the science, are impacting our mitochondrial metabolic health is the food, the sleep, the movement, the emotional health, the toxins, our relationship with light and our relationship with temperature.

因此，我认为我们可以真正控制的，而且我们知道，基于科学，正在影响我们线粒体代谢健康的是食物、睡眠、运动、情绪健康、毒素、我们与光的关系以及我们与温度的关系。

And your journey to optimal metabolic health might be totally different from mine because I might really need to focus on the food and the sleep and the emotional health, and you might really need to focus on the toxins and the light and the movement.

你的最佳代谢健康之旅可能与我的完全不同，因为我可能真的需要关注食物、睡眠和情绪健康，而你可能真的需要关注毒素、光线和运动。

And so a lot of it is actually taking stock on where the levers are in your own life, where are you crushing it?

所以很多事情实际上是在评估你自己生活中的杠杆在哪里，你在哪里压垮它？

And where is there a lot of room for improvement?

还有哪里还有很大的改进空间？

So step one is knowing, like, that those are the things.

所以第一步就是知道这些就是事情。

Those are the things in our environment that we need to basically improve to give ourselves the best capacity.

这些是我们环境中的一些东西，我们需要从根本上进行改进，以赋予自己最好的能力。

And then, of course, checking your biomarkers to make sure your interventions are working.

当然，然后还要检查您的生物标志物，以确保您的干预措施有效。

But food, I think, is one that is, like, totally unavoidable of those pillars, those seven pillars.

但我认为，食物是这些支柱、七大支柱中完全不可避免的。

Food is one that most of us are getting wrong and that we really, actually have to get right to improve our metabolic health for a lot of reasons.

食物是我们大多数人都犯错的一种食物，出于多种原因，我们确实必须采取正确的饮食方式来改善我们的代谢健康。

I mean, our bodies are basically 100% molecularly made from food.

我的意思是，我们的身体基本上 100% 由食物分子组成。

Andrew Huberman: That's so wild.

安德鲁·休伯曼：这太疯狂了。

Casey Means: It's so wild.

凯西的意思是：这太疯狂了。

Andrew Huberman: Every time I think about that, it kind of blows my mind.

Andrew Huberman：每次想到这一点，我都会感到震惊。

Casey Means: Like, babies are 3D printed from food, basically, inside a woman's body.

Casey Means：就像，婴儿基本上是在女性体内用食物 3D 打印出来的。

It's wild to me.

这对我来说很疯狂。

And then what's so cool about the body, what brings me just immense awe every day, is that we have this conception in our Western world that the body is like a thing that we're with throughout our life.

身体最酷的地方，每天都给我带来巨大敬畏的地方，是我们西方世界有这样的观念：身体就像是我们一生中伴随的东西。

Cause we kind of look the same and we age slowly.

因为我们看起来都一样，而且我们都在慢慢变老。

So it's like Casey is a thing and Andrew is a thing, but the body is actually a process.

所以这就好像凯西是一个东西，安德鲁也是一个东西，但身体实际上是一个过程。

The body.

身体。

And there's this amazing Taoist statement, like, life is a process, not an entity.

还有一句令人惊叹的道家说法，比如，生命是一个过程，而不是一个实体。

Andrew Huberman: I love that.

安德鲁·休伯曼：我喜欢这个。

I'm sorry to interrupt.

抱歉打扰了。

I'm just.

我只是。

I always wish that if people could understand that with biology and health, understanding the nouns and the names is important.

我一直希望，如果人们能够理解生物学和健康，理解名词和名称很重要。

But it's verbs.

但它是动词。

It's verbs, verbs, verbs.

这是动词，动词，动词。

If you understand that things are processes, or processes, depending on who you are and where you live in the world, it all becomes so much more tractable.

如果你明白事物都是过程，或者过程，取决于你是谁以及你住在世界上的哪个地方，那么一切都会变得容易处理得多。

Casey Means: Yes.

凯西的意思是：是的。

And it's so much more hopeful, because if I'm a process, if you're a process, then every day we're eating, we are changing the process.

这更有希望，因为如果我是一个过程，如果你是一个过程，那么我们每天吃东西，我们都在改变这个过程。

Whereas if you think you're a thing, then there's no hope.

但如果你认为自己是个东西，那就没有希望了。

Because I'm just.

因为我只是。

I'm Casey, and that's who I am.

我是凯西，这就是我。

And I have this disease, you know?

我也有这种病，你知道吗？

And I think so much in our language, actually, of healthcare, both our Western sort of despiritualized nature.

事实上，我用我们的语言思考了很多关于医疗保健的问题，这都是我们西方人那种去精神化的本质。

We don't really have a lot of curiosity with process.

我们对流程并没有太大的好奇心。

But even the ideas, the way we talk about disease, I have diabetes, and we don't even talk about diabetes cures, which now a lot of people are curing their diabetes.

但即使是这些想法，我们谈论疾病的方式，我患有糖尿病，我们甚至不谈论糖尿病的治疗方法，现在很多人正在治愈他们的糖尿病。

We call it remission.

我们称之为缓解。

It's this thing that's a part of you.

这个东西是你的一部分。

And I just love this idea that we're evolving every day.

我很喜欢我们每天都在进步的想法。

And food is so important because, again, we take in 70 metric tons of food in that lifetime, two to three pounds per day, one metric ton per year on average.

食物是如此重要，因为我们一生要摄入 70 吨食物，每天 2 到 3 磅，平均每年 1 吨。

And that is like the printer ink, that's the 3D printer ink to create tomorrow's version of ourself, which is molecularly different from the Casey of today.

这就像打印机墨水一样，是 3D 打印机墨水，用于创造明天的我们自己，这与今天的凯西在分子上有所不同。

That's a hopeful message, because if we can give the body food, which, you know, I think we, again, our conception of food, I think, is very limited.

这是一个充满希望的信息，因为如果我们能够给身体提供食物，我认为我们对食物的概念是非常有限的。

Food is the molecular building blocks of the body.

食物是身体的分子组成部分。

It is the cell signaling, functional molecules that tell our cells what to do.

细胞信号传导、功能分子告诉我们的细胞该做什么。

They act as transcription factors, epigenetic modifiers, cell-signaling pathway intermediates, and it's also, of course, the substrate to change what the microbiome does and the composition of the microbiome, which is basically a pharmacy inside our bodies to create different molecules that can affect our health.

它们充当转录因子、表观遗传修饰剂、细胞信号通路中间体，当然，它也是改变微生物组功能和微生物组组成的底物，微生物组基本上是我们体内的一个药房，可以产生可以影响我们健康的不同分子。

So food is certainly a calorie, is a calorie from the concept of thermodynamics, but from the concept of molecular information, it has three massively important parts that are unavoidable for creating cellular health.

所以食物当然是一种卡路里，是热力学概念中的卡路里，但从分子信息的概念来看，它有三个非常重要的部分，这对于创造细胞健康是不可避免的。

So I would just say that that is the pillar that we can be happy to drill into of, like, what do we really do to, you know, build as much metabolic health as possible?

所以我只想说，这是我们可以很乐意深入研究的支柱，例如，我们真正要做些什么来建立尽可能多的代谢健康？

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, I want to focus now, if you're willing, on food, not just macronutrients, proteins, fats, and carbohydrates, not just calories, although that as well, but things like timing, things like fasting and micronutrients, which I think is a highly underexplored topic.

安德鲁·休伯曼：是的，如果你愿意的话，我现在想关注食物，不仅仅是大量营养素、蛋白质、脂肪和碳水化合物，不仅仅是卡路里，尽管如此，还有诸如时间安排、禁食和微量营养素之类的东西，我认为这是一个高度未被充分探索的话题。

So, with respect to food, gosh, I feel like we've all been exposed to pretty much every variation of, you know, it's all calories in, calories out.

所以，就食物而言，天哪，我觉得我们都接触过几乎所有的变化，你知道，都是卡路里摄入和卡路里消耗。

And by the way, I believe in the laws of thermodynamics.

顺便说一句，我相信热力学定律。

So, yes, total caloric load matters.

所以，是的，总热量负荷很重要。

Total energy expenditure matters, without question, within the framework of not consuming excess calories, there's a lot to explore.

毫无疑问，总能量消耗很重要，在不消耗过多热量的框架内，还有很多值得探索的地方。

However, I can just say for myself, for what it's worth, I'm not very hungry until 11 a.m.

不过，我只能对自己说，不管怎样，直到上午 11 点我都不太饿。

noon, or 1.

中午，或 1。

I'm okay not eating until then.

在那之前我不吃饭也没关系。

And just water, electrolytes and caffeine does me just fine, I can exercise, etc. But once I start eating, I really enjoy eating.

只要喝水、电解质和咖啡因就可以了，我可以锻炼身体等等。但是一旦我开始吃东西，我真的很喜欢吃东西。

And I mostly like the proteins.

我最喜欢蛋白质。

I like meat and fish and eggs, and I like cheese and vegetables and carbohydrates and fruit and all of it.

我喜欢肉、鱼和鸡蛋，我喜欢奶酪、蔬菜、碳水化合物和水果等等。

I like all the stuff.

我喜欢所有的东西。

And I tend to like single or few-ingredient foods.

我倾向于喜欢单一或几种成分的食物。

I just naturally do.

我很自然地这样做。

So I've been lucky in that way.

所以我在这方面很幸运。

But I know a lot of people like sandwiches, processed foods, things that are combinations of ingredients.

但我知道很多人喜欢三明治、加工食品以及各种成分的组合。

What do we know about kind of, I don't want to say optimal, but if one, we're going to explore different ways of eating for sake of adjusting these biomarkers in the right direction and improving metabolic health, is there kind of a generic jumping-off point?

我们知道什么，我不想说是最佳的，但如果有的话，我们将探索不同的饮食方式，以便向正确的方向调整这些生物标志物并改善代谢健康，是否有一个通用的起点？

Would most people, for instance, be wise to cut back on the total number of sugars, or the total amount of sugar, rather perhaps reduce the amount of carbohydrate and replace it with some lean, quality protein?

例如，大多数人是否明智地减少糖的总量或糖的总量，而不是减少碳水化合物的量并用一些瘦肉、优质蛋白质代替？

I mean, are there generalizations that we can make, or is it really all just about not getting excessive calories and trying to get those calories from the most nutrient-rich sources?

我的意思是，我们是否可以做出概括，或者这实际上只是为了不摄入过多的卡路里并尝试从营养最丰富的来源获取这些卡路里？

Casey Means: Well, just drilling in on two things you just said there.

凯西的意思是：好吧，只是深入探讨你刚才所说的两件事。

So one thing you said that was interesting was that you're lucky that you like all of those foods.

你说的一件有趣的事情是你很幸运你喜欢所有这些食物。

And then the second thing was, is it just about not getting excess calories?

然后第二件事是，这只是为了不摄入过多的卡路里吗？

But I think what's interesting about both of those is that I would argue that the reason you like those foods is because you have given your body enough whole, real foods that now everything in your biology, neurobiologically, your reward circuitry, your microbiome, your satiety, hormone threshold, all of these are now basically creating a situation in which you like those foods.

但我认为这两者的有趣之处在于，我认为你喜欢这些食物的原因是因为你给了你的身体足够的完整、真实的食物，现在你的生物学、神经生物学、奖励回路、你的微生物群、你的饱腹感、激素阈值中的一切现在基本上都在创造一种你喜欢这些食物的情况。

And then the caloric thing fits into that.

然后热量的事情就适合了。

Because the reason we're eating excess calories, the reason chronic nutrition is happening, and the reason we are quite literally, in the United States, eating ourselves to death for the first time in human history, is because we're not eating real food and we're eating 60% to 75% of our calories of ultraprocessed, nutrient-depleted foods that fundamentally don't give our cells what they need.

因为我们摄入过量热量的原因，慢性营养不良发生的原因，以及人类历史上第一次在美国吃到自己死亡的原因，是因为我们吃的不是真正的食物，而是我们摄入的卡路里中有60%到75%是经过精加工、营养耗尽的食物，这些食物从根本上无法为我们的细胞提供所需的东西。

And a real premise that I think is so important to realize is that our cells are brilliant.

我认为认识到这一点非常重要的一个真正前提是我们的细胞非常出色。

And if the cells aren't getting what they actually need to function properly, they will drive you to eat until they get their needs met.

如果细胞没有得到它们正常运作所需的东西，它们就会驱使你进食，直到它们的需求得到满足。

Unfortunately, because the ultraprocessed food is designed to be highly addictive, and it's devoid of what the cells actually need for good function, we end up eating ourselves into a grave, and now almost 80% of Americans are overweight or obese.

不幸的是，由于超加工食品的设计初衷是让人高度上瘾，而且它缺乏细胞正常运作所需的物质，所以我们最终把自己吃进了坟墓，现在几乎 80% 的美国人超重或肥胖。

Close to 50% of the country is obese.

该国近50%的人肥胖。

We literally gloss over this as a culture.

我们确实将其掩盖为一种文化。

It has become so normal in such a short amount of time.

在这么短的时间内，它变得如此正常。

But I always think about the fact that, like, there are really no other animal species in the world that have obesity and chronic disease epidemics, and they don't have social media, they don't have experts, they don't have PubMed, they don't have the FDA, they don't have the USDA, they don't have any of it.

但我一直在思考这样一个事实：世界上确实没有其他动物物种存在肥胖和慢性疾病流行，它们没有社交媒体，没有专家，没有 PubMed，没有 FDA，没有 USDA，这些都没有。

And they have somehow figured out a way to stay at a healthy weight and to not get heart disease.

他们以某种方式找到了一种保持健康体重并且不患心脏病的方法。

And it's because they're eating real food that meets the needs of their cells.

这是因为他们吃的是真正的食物，可以满足细胞的需要。

And so I think to just boil that down, the root cause of the problem is that we have a toxic food supply that's no longer filled with the molecular information that our body needs to know to be satiated and to function properly.

所以我认为归根结底，问题的根本原因是我们的有毒食物供应不再充满我们的身体需要知道的分子信息才能满足并正常运作。

And so through the complex biology of satiety hormones and neurobiology and microbiome function, we are driven to eat so, so, so much more.

因此，通过饱腹感激素、神经生物学和微生物功能的复杂生物学，我们被迫吃得如此、如此、如此多。

So truly, the jumping-off point for anyone on the quest to better health is to eat as much real, unprocessed food from good soil as possible.

确实，对于任何追求更好健康的人来说，起点就是尽可能多地吃来自优质土壤的真实的、未加工的食物。

And really of any dietary philosophy they want.

以及他们真正想要的任何饮食哲学。

Truly, I think if someone's eating real, unprocessed food from good soil, who is, you know, plant based or who is keto, they are going to have such a higher chance of meeting their body's actual fundamental needs.

确实，我认为如果有人吃来自好土壤的真正的、未加工的食物，你知道，植物性食物或酮类食物，他们将有更高的机会满足身体的实际基本需求。

And the good thing about biomarker testing is they can track for themselves if they are having good cellular function with that strategy.

生物标志物测试的好处是，他们可以通过该策略自行追踪是否具有良好的细胞功能。

There's been studies that have panned this out.

有研究已经证明了这一点。

You know, we know that the more ultraprocessed food you eat, the higher risk of obviously obesity, but also chronic diseases are.

你知道，我们知道你吃的超加工食品越多，明显肥胖的风险就越高，而且慢性病的风险也越高。

But then of course, there's an amazing study from Kevin Hall just recently where he basically locked people up at the NIH, and for two weeks he had them eat ultraprocessed food.

当然，凯文·霍尔（Kevin Hall）最近进行了一项令人惊叹的研究，他基本上将人们锁在美国国立卫生研究院（NIH），并让他们吃超加工食品两周。

And for two weeks he had them eat real food.

在两周的时间里，他让他们吃真正的食物。

And people ate 7000 more calories in the two-week period when they were eating ultraprocessed food versus unprocessed food.

与食用未加工食品相比，食用超加工食品的人在两周内多摄入了 7000 卡路里热量。

Andrew Huberman: They were locked at the NIH.

Andrew Huberman：他们被锁在 NIH 里。

I've been to NIH quite a bit.

我去过 NIH 不少次。

It's great for a day job or a day visit.

非常适合日常工作或一日访问。

I don't know that I want to be locked there.

我不知道我想被锁在那里。

That sounds like the Stanford prisoner experiment.

这听起来像斯坦福囚犯实验。

Casey Means: I say this tongue-in-cheek and with such admiration for what he had to do, but I think it's so amusing that we have this totally Frankenfood, toxic food system that's largely ultraprocessed.

凯西的意思是：我说这句话是半开玩笑的，并且对他必须做的事情非常钦佩，但我认为这很有趣，因为我们有这个完全是弗兰肯食品、有毒的食品系统，而且基本上是超加工的。

And it took amazing Kevin Hall to basically do an NIH-funded study where people, what I say by locked is that they were inpatients at the NIH and had ad lib, unlimited access to food during each of those two-week interventions.

令人惊叹的凯文·霍尔（Kevin Hall）基本上做了一项由美国国立卫生研究院（NIH）资助的研究，我所说的锁定是，他们是美国国立卫生研究院的住院患者，在为期两周的干预期间可以随意、无限制地获取食物。

So it was two weeks of ultraprocessed food, two weeks of unprocessed or minimally processed food, and they could eat whatever they wanted, as much as they wanted in both groups.

因此，这是两周的超加工食品，两周的未加工或最低限度加工的食品，两组人都可以吃任何他们想吃的东西，想吃多少就吃多少。

And then they would weigh every single bite that was left on their trays.

然后他们会称量托盘上剩下的每一口食物。

They knew exactly, exactly how many calories they ate.

他们确切地知道自己吃了多少卡路里。

And literally just giving people this ultraprocessed food, which is devoid of what our bodies need and therefore will drive people to eat more, they ate 500 calories more per day, for a total of 7000 calories more in that two weeks.

从字面上看，只是给人们这种超加工食品，它缺乏我们身体所需的东西，因此会促使人们吃得更多，他们每天多吃 500 卡路里，两周内总共多吃 7000 卡路里。

And they gained about two pounds and then lost two pounds in the unprocessed group, which makes sense, of course, because a pound is about 3500 calories.

未加工组的体重增加了大约 2 磅，然后又减少了 2 磅，这当然是有道理的，因为一磅大约含有 3500 卡路里热量。

And so we have to do these kinds of crazy studies just to prove what we kind of know is true, which is that this ultraprocessed food environment that's cropped up for the past 50 years is an experiment that has failed.

因此，我们必须进行这些疯狂的研究，只是为了证明我们所知道的事实是正确的，即过去 50 年来出现的这种超加工食品环境是一项失败的实验。

It has failed.

它失败了。

You know, close to 45% of kids are overweight or obese now.

您知道，现在有近 45% 的孩子超重或肥胖。

Like, it's not working.

就像，它不起作用。

And that really is the root cause.

这确实是根本原因。

So I think a lot of food is about quality and how do we actually really meet the needs of the cells so that our satiety hormones get secreted and we naturally stop eating.

所以我认为很多食物都与质量有关，以及我们如何真正满足细胞的需求，以便分泌饱腹感激素，然后我们自然地停止进食。

Because just telling people, eat less calories, but eat whatever you want, that just doesn't work.

因为只是告诉人们，少吃卡路里，但想吃什么就吃什么，这是行不通的。

We have to inspire the body to not want to eat excess calories, which we do by stimulating satiety hormones, you know, helping the microbiome support that process, and then change our reward circuitry, which is done with nutrient-rich, the most nutrient-rich food we can possibly get.

我们必须激励身体不想摄入过多的热量，这是通过刺激饱腹感激素来实现的，你知道，帮助微生物组支持这一过程，然后改变我们的奖励回路，这是通过营养丰富的、我们可能获得的最营养丰富的食物来完成的。

And that's why I mentioned the soil, because our food is drastically depleted of nutrients.

这就是为什么我提到土壤，因为我们的食物中的营养物质已经严重耗尽。

So when we look at that 70 metric tons of food we're eating in the lifetime, it's just fascinating.

因此，当我们看到我们一生中消耗的 70 吨食物时，这真是令人着迷。

That's, that's the information for our body, what it's going to be built from, how it's going to function.

也就是说，这就是我们身体的信息，它是由什么构成的，它是如何运作的。

Well, right now, 60% to 75% is ultraprocessed.

嗯，现在，60% 到 75% 是经过超加工的。

So we slash the value because the ultraprocessing just, like, slashes the nutrients.

所以我们削减了价值，因为超加工就像削减了营养物质一样。

We slash the value of that 70 metric tons.

我们削减了这 70 吨的价值。

And then we have crappy soil because of our industrial-agriculture system, which means the food in some cases has 70% less of key micronutrients in it.

然后，由于我们的工业农业系统，我们的土壤很糟糕，这意味着在某些情况下，食物中的关键微量营养素含量减少了 70%。

So that 70 metric tons, what's actually useful for our body, becomes so much smaller.

这样一来，70 吨（对我们身体实际有用的重量）就变得小了很多。

So what we want to do is basically expand the value of that substrate we're putting in the body.

所以我们想做的基本上就是扩大我们放入体内的基质的价值。

And that means real food, unprocessed, from good soil, meet the needs of the cells naturally, don't be hungry, maintain a healthy weight.

这意味着真正的食物，未经加工，来自良好的土壤，自然满足细胞的需求，不会饥饿，保持健康的体重。

And, you know, something I talk about is that we could, I mean, we could talk about nutrition, the biochemistry of nutrition all day.

而且，你知道，我谈论的是我们可以，我的意思是，我们可以整天谈论营养，营养的生物化学。

But in my review of sort of the biology and the biochemistry, like, there's five main things I think we can strive for in our food that can really help meet the needs of our cells.

但在我对生物学和生物化学的回顾中，我认为我们可以在食物中争取五个主要的东西，这些东西可以真正帮助满足我们细胞的需求。

And when it really comes, there are obviously more things our body needs.

当它真正到来时，我们的身体显然需要更多的东西。

But if we strive for these five things, we will ultimately, I think, eat a really healthy diet.

但如果我们努力实现这五件事，我认为我们最终将吃到真正健康的饮食。

And that is fiber, omega-3s, adequate healthy protein, a good amount of probiotics and high-antioxidant sources.

那就是纤维、omega-3、充足的健康蛋白质、大量的益生菌和高抗氧化剂来源。

And if we build our diet around knowing a few things in each of those categories that we really love, and stock our kitchen with it and make our meals a mixing and matching of each of those components, and we get a good amount of those, we will give the body a lot of what it needs to have mitochondrial health, reduce chronic inflammation, reduce oxidative stress.

如果我们围绕了解每个类别中我们真正喜欢的一些东西来制定我们的饮食，并在我们的厨房里储备这些成分，并让我们的膳食混合和匹配每种成分，并且我们获得大量这些成分，我们将为身体提供维持线粒体健康、减少慢性炎症、减少氧化应激所需的大量物质。

Andrew Huberman: It's interesting for me to take a step back from nutrition as it's typically presented, and think about the brain, the hypothalamic circuitry that drives hunger and satiety and things like that, and to map that onto what I've heard and I believe to be true, based on my view of the literature, which is that we are largely, meaning these circuits in the brain make us largely amino acid-foraging machines, because we need those amino acids in order to carry out metabolic processes and reconstruct any tissues that need repair and recovery, not just from exercise, but just daily turnover, removal of waste, etc. So we're foraging for amino acids unconsciously, we're foraging for micronutrients.

安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman）：对我来说，从通常所呈现的营养中退后一步，思考一下大脑，即驱动饥饿和饱腹感的下丘脑回路以及类似的东西，并将其映射到我所听到的和我相信是真实的，基于我对文献的看法，即我们在很大程度上，意味着大脑中的这些回路使我们很大程度上成为氨基酸觅食机器，因为我们需要这些氨基酸来进行代谢过程并重建任何需要修复的组织和恢复，不仅仅是通过锻炼，而是通过日常周转、清除废物等。所以我们在无意识地寻找氨基酸，我们在寻找微量营养素。

And of course we need macronutrients.

当然，我们需要大量营养素。

We need enough energy from proteins, fats and carbohydrates, or some other combination of the three.

我们需要从蛋白质、脂肪和碳水化合物或三者的其他组合中获取足够的能量。

I feel like I'm sort of in the dying category of omnivores.

我觉得我属于濒临灭绝的杂食动物。

I'm not meat based and I'm not plant based.

我不吃肉，也不吃植物。

I think most people are omnivores, actually, but omnivores aren't discussed quite as much as the other categories, at least not on social media, but that we think of ourselves as getting hungry and wanting to eat.

我认为实际上大多数人都是杂食动物，但杂食动物的讨论并不像其他类别那么多，至少在社交媒体上没有，但我们认为自己感到饥饿并想吃东西。

And I think, eating the foods, some of them that I listed off before, like meat and fish and eggs and vegetables and fruits.

我想，吃这些食物，其中一些是我之前列出的，比如肉、鱼、蛋、蔬菜和水果。

And I do like starches, like rice, oatmeal, some pastas, some sourdough breads and things.

我确实喜欢淀粉类食物，比如米饭、燕麦片、一些意大利面、一些酵母面包之类的东西。

I love butter.

我喜欢黄油。

Who doesn't love butter?

谁不喜欢黄油？

Of course, none of that stuff in excess, olive oil.

当然，这些东西都不能过量，橄榄油。

But if one looks at kind of that buffet of options, you realize you can get some high-quality amino acids, you can get some high-quality lipids.

但如果你看看自助餐的选择，你会意识到你可以获得一些高质量的氨基酸，你可以获得一些高质量的脂质。

You probably want to get more of them from olive oil than from butter.

你可能想从橄榄油中获取更多的维生素，而不是从黄油中获取。

But you can get the micronutrients you need, provided those food sources are healthy.

但只要这些食物来源健康，您就可以获得所需的微量营养素。

Now, contrast that with a highly processed diet, or even a minimally processed diet, and you can get the taste, you can get the macronutrients, you can get the calories, but you don't, meaning the brain doesn't really have a sense of it can't directly map taste, calories, micronutrients onto one another.

现在，与高度加工的饮食，甚至是最低限度加工的饮食相比，你可以得到味道，你可以得到大量营养素，你可以得到卡路里，但你不能，这意味着大脑并没有真正的感觉，它不能直接将味道、卡路里、微量营养素相互映射。

And so you can imagine that the neural circuits, and here is a little bit of hypothesizing conjecture, but that the neural circuits responsible for hunger and satiety would get immensely confused by what's in a highly processed food.

所以你可以想象神经回路，这里有一些假设推测，但负责饥饿和饱腹感的神经回路会对高度加工食品中的成分感到极大的困惑。

A Snickers bar, if you like sweets, tastes pretty good, but it's unclear what's in it except sugar.

一块士力架，如果你喜欢甜食的话，味道还不错，但是不清楚里面除了糖之外还有什么。

Except it's got a certain Snickers bar taste, right?

除了它有一定的士力架味道，对吧？

But if the circuits of the brain are really trying to drive us to get amino acids and micronutrients for bodily health and repair, well, then highly processed and even moderately processed food has just got to be pure confusion.

但如果大脑回路真的试图驱使我们获取氨基酸和微量营养素来促进身体健康和修复，那么高度加工甚至适度加工的食物就纯粹是混乱的。

Sorry to go long here, but it reminds me of an idea I had once where imagine if you took a pill that greatly increased the level of dopamine, norepinephrine, acetylcholine, and serotonin all at once, that's polypharmacology.

很抱歉在这里说得太长，但这让我想起了我曾经的一个想法，想象一下，如果你服用一种药片，可以同时大大增加多巴胺、去甲肾上腺素、乙酰胆碱和血清素的水平，那就是多药理学。

And it might make you feel a certain way, maybe good, maybe bad.

它可能会让你有某种感觉，也许好，也许坏。

And then afterwards, you'd probably have a bit of a crash as the drug wore off.

然后，随着药效的消失，你可能会发生一些崩溃。

No doubt you would.

毫无疑问你会的。

But let's say you wanted more of that feeling.

但假设您想要更多这种感觉。

You wouldn't really know what to go look for because you don't know what was in it, because it's polypharmacology.

你真的不知道该寻找什么，因为你不知道里面有什么，因为它是多药理学的。

So I feel like highly processed food is polypharmacology.

所以我觉得高度加工的食品是多药理学的。

Whereas when you are eating foods that create a more pure experience of micronutrients, amino acid content, calories, and taste, those four things map to one another, that intuitively we can start to understand, oh, I like this food, and it's good for me.

然而，当你吃的食物能够创造一种更纯粹的微量营养素、氨基酸含量、卡路里和味道体验时，这四件事相互映射，我们可以直观地开始理解，哦，我喜欢这种食物，它对我有好处。

And this is enough of it, right?

这已经足够了，对吧？

I don't know anyone of reasonable size that eats, like, four rib eye steaks.

我不知道有谁吃四块肋眼牛排这样的体型合适。

You know, they eat one.

你知道，他们吃一个。

I mean, I'm sure there's some freaks out there that do that, but one even small piece of quality meat is very satiating.

我的意思是，我确信有一些怪胎会这样做，但即使是一小块优质肉也非常令人满意。

Casey Means: Yeah.

凯西的意思是：是啊。

You will self-regulate, because the body, like every other animal in the world, is exquisitely designed to regulate hunger.

你会自我调节，因为身体就像世界上所有其他动物一样，经过精心设计，可以调节饥饿。

On a very intuitive level, if we eat natural food, I think it's almost ridiculous to talk about calories and isolation, because the reason we're eating more calories is because we're eating ultraprocessed food.

在非常直观的层面上，如果我们吃天然食物，我认为谈论卡路里和隔离几乎是荒谬的，因为我们吃更多卡路里的原因是因为我们吃的是超加工食品。

And so I love what you just said, Andrew, about the brain and polypharmacy.

所以我喜欢你刚才所说的，安德鲁，关于大脑和复方药物的内容。

I think that it literally is.

我认为确实如此。

I've never heard that said.

我从来没有听说过这样的说法。

And I think it's like, processed food is like polypharmacy of food.

我认为加工食品就像食品的复方制剂。

It is the definition of processed food, which I know you talked about with Rob Lustig.

这是加工食品的定义，我知道您与 Rob Lustig 谈论过这个定义。

The Nova 4 criteria is, literally, it's breaking down foods into these constituent parts that were never meant to be separated from each other.

从字面上看，Nova 4 的标准就是将食物分解成这些组成部分，而这些组成部分从来就不是相互分离的。

Like the endosperm of a wheat kernel separate from the bran and the germ.

就像麦粒的胚乳与​​麸皮和胚芽分离一样。

And then take that, and like a little science experiment, pair it up with all these other individual components and synthetic chemicals that are made in a factory, and put them together to create this thing that the body — I truly think our insatiable hunger, again, we're eating ourselves to death in the United States.

然后像一个小科学实验一样，将它与工厂生产的所有其他单独成分和合成化学品配对，然后将它们组合在一起创造出身体的东西——我真的认为我们无法满足的饥饿，再次，我们在美国正在把自己吃死。

That's the reality.

这就是现实。

Our insatiable hunger and our chronic disease epidemic fundamentally is — a lot of it is mass cellular confusion.

我们永不满足的饥饿和慢性疾病的流行从根本上来说是——其中很多是大规模的细胞混乱。

And when you think about what chronic inflammation is, chronic inflammation is biochemical fear on the cellular level.

当你思考什么是慢性炎症时，慢性炎症是细胞水平上的生化恐惧。

Well, when you put this stuff into the body that it's never seen before, obviously that's gonna generate some confusion.

好吧，当你把这些以前从未见过的东西放入体内时，显然会产生一些混乱。

And, you know, you could trace that back to what that really means with leaky gut and, you know, all the sorts of the real physiology of that.

而且，你知道，你可以追溯到肠漏的真正含义，以及它的各种真正的生理学。

But there's a wonderful book that is called "The End of Cravings," by Mark Schatzker.

但是有一本很棒的书，名叫《渴望的终结》，作者是马克·沙茨克。

He also wrote "The Dorito Effect," but he talks a little bit about what you're talking about is this idea that processed food is actually the ultimate sort of food-based variable reward.

他还写了《多力多力效应》，但他谈到了你所说的加工食品实际上是最终的基于食物的可变奖励的想法。

So in the way that things that, I mean, I'm speaking expert here, but things that the body can't predict what the outcome is gonna be are gonna kind of get you in that dopamine motivation pathway.

所以，我的意思是，我在这里说的是专家，但身体无法预测结果的事情会让你进入多巴胺激励途径。

And that's actually what processed food is doing, is it's every time we eat a different, we think we're eating a tortilla, but it's like completely different than all the other weird tortillas, ultraprocessed tortillas on the shelf.

这实际上就是加工食品的作用，每次我们吃不同的东西时，我们都认为我们吃的是玉米饼，但它与货架上所有其他奇怪的玉米饼、超加工玉米饼完全不同。

So every time we eat a tortilla, and our brain is this incredible prediction machine, and as it's coming towards our mouth, we're predicting what the load is going to be, but we have no idea.

所以每次我们吃玉米饼时，我们的大脑都是一个令人难以置信的预测机器，当它到达我们的嘴时，我们正在预测负载将会是多少，但我们不知道。

Is it a Coke Zero?

这是零可乐吗？

Is it a Diet Coke with aspartame?

这是含有阿斯巴甜的健怡可乐吗？

Is it a regular Coke?

是普通的可乐吗？

It all tastes the same, but the nutrients that hit our gut are totally different.

它们的味道都一样，但进入我们肠道的营养成分却完全不同。

So we end up actually triggering the motivation pathways because of processed food representing a variable reward.

因此，我们最终实际上触发了动机途径，因为加工食品代表了可变的奖励。

Whereas every time you eat a rib eye, your body's pretty much getting a similar thing each time.

然而每次你吃肋眼牛排时，你的身体每次都会得到类似的东西。

And so the prediction matching is going to be more conducive to getting off the motivation treadmill for more, which I think is so fascinating.

因此，预测匹配将更有利于摆脱动力跑步机以获得更多，我认为这非常令人着迷。

But I think backing up a little bit, one concept I have for food that really helps me is really thinking about, the body's always trying to help me be satiated and trying to help reduce my cravings.

但我认为稍微支持一下，我对真正对我有帮助的食物的一个概念是真正思考，身体总是试图帮助我感到饱足并试图帮助减少我的渴望。

I literally just have to give the body what it needs.

我实际上只需要提供身体所需的东西即可。

I have to stimulate the body in a way that it will serve me in giving me satiety hormones to basically regulate my hunger.

我必须以某种方式刺激身体，让它为我提供饱腹感荷尔蒙，从根本上调节我的饥饿感。

And again with visuals, I think it's so helpful.

再次强调视觉效果，我认为它非常有帮助。

I think about these cells lining our small intestine that literally have nutrient sensors and literal receptors on the cell membrane, in the luminal side of the gut that's facing all the food, that are just sitting there, like, waiting to bind with these things in our food, that will stimulate the cell to make the satiety hormone that, poof, effortlessly makes us not hungry, gets rid of that grip of attachment to cravings that all of us are so plagued by.

我想到我们小肠内壁的这些细胞，它们的细胞膜上确实有营养传感器和文字受体，在肠道面向所有食物的管腔一侧，它们只是坐在那里，等待与食物中的这些东西结合，这将刺激细胞产生饱腹感激素，噗，毫不费力地让我们不饿，摆脱我们所有人都深受困扰的对渴望的执着。

And I think we have this intense conversation happening in society right now about GLP-1 analogs and Ozempic and Mounjaro and all these things, GLP-1 agonists.

我认为我们现在社会上正在进行关于 GLP-1 类似物、Ozempic 和 Mounjaro 以及所有这些 GLP-1 激动剂的激烈讨论。

But, like, you know, we rarely talk about the fact that, like, we have nutrient-sensing cells of the gut, the L-cells of the gut, that when stimulated appropriately, will make GLP-1 and when stimulated the way they want to be, will secrete hoards of GLP-1 for us.

但是，我们很少谈论这样一个事实：我们有肠道的营养感应细胞，即肠道的 L 细胞，当受到适当的刺激时，它们会产生 GLP-1，当以它们想要的方式受到刺激时，它们会为我们分泌大量的 GLP-1。

And so how do we actually think about just literally giving the body what it needs to stimulate satiety hormones?

那么，我们如何真正考虑为身体提供刺激饱腹感激素所需的物质呢？

And the processed foods aren't giving us those things, you know, the things that are going to stimulate those cells, the things that will, I mean, this is kind of fascinating, if you don't mind going down a little road--

加工食品不会给我们那些东西，你知道，那些会刺激这些细胞的东西，那些会，我的意思是，如果你不介意走一点路的话，这有点令人着迷——

Andrew Huberman: No, please.

安德鲁·休伯曼： 不，请。

Casey Means: With the GLP-1 conversation, I feel like so missing from the conversation is the idea that, like, from a first principles perspective, there's three ways our body could make more GLP-1.

Casey Means：在 GLP-1 对话中，我觉得对话中缺少这样一个想法：从第一原理的角度来看，我们的身体可以通过三种方式产生更多的 GLP-1。

We make more cells that make it, L-cells of the gut.

我们制造更多的细胞来制造它，即肠道的 L 细胞。

Each of those cells makes more GLP-1.

每个细胞都会产生更多的 GLP-1。

And importantly, we can also inhibit the inactivator of GLP-1, which is an enzyme called DPP-4.

重要的是，我们还可以抑制 GLP-1 的失活剂，这是一种称为 DPP-4 的酶。

So GLP-1 actually gets rapidly degraded by DPP-4 in the body.

因此，GLP-1 实际上会被体内的 DPP-4 快速降解。

So if we can figure out how to inhibit DPP-4, we can raise our GLP-1 levels.

因此，如果我们能找到抑制 DPP-4 的方法，我们就能提高 GLP-1 水平。

Andrew Huberman: What is DPP-4?

安德鲁·休伯曼：DPP-4 是什么？

Casey Means: It's an enzyme that breaks down GLP-1.

凯西的意思是：它是一种分解 GLP-1 的酶。

Andrew Huberman: Thanks; I think you said that, and I missed it.

安德鲁·休伯曼：谢谢；我想你已经说过了，但我错过了。

I apologize.

我道歉。

Casey Means: So fascinating.

凯西的意思是：太迷人了。

And so, how often have you seen in the headlines, oh, here's some strategies to inhibit your DPP-4, never.

所以，您是否经常在头条新闻中看到，哦，这里有一些抑制 DPP-4 的策略，但从来没有。

Because Ozempic is on track to be the highest grossing med in human history.

因为 Ozempic 有望成为人类历史上收入最高的药物。

And just like we talked about in the beginning of the episode, the whole industry, this $4 trillion healthcare industry, is desperate for us to not understand how to do the things that drugs could do for us.

就像我们在本集开头谈到的那样，整个行业，这个价值 4 万亿美元的医疗保健行业，迫切希望我们不了解如何做药物可以为我们做的事情。

So when we look at those three first principles, approaches of how do we make more L-cells, get them to produce more GLP-1 from each L-cell, and then inhibit the breakdown through the inhibition of DPP-4.

因此，当我们研究这三个首要原则时，我们将了解如何制造更多的 L 细胞，让它们从每个 L 细胞中产生更多的 GLP-1，然后通过抑制 DPP-4 来抑制分解。

For the first one, we know that short-chain fatty acids, which, of course, are the byproduct of microbial fermentation of fiber in the diet, stimulates the differentiation of more L-cells in the gut.

对于第一个，我们知道短链脂肪酸（当然是饮食中纤维微生物发酵的副产品）会刺激肠道中更多 L 细胞的分化。

So, more short-chain fatty acids, more L-cells.

因此，短链脂肪酸越多，L 细胞就越多。

Andrew Huberman: Can we translate that into support for the gut microbiome?

Andrew Huberman：我们可以将其转化为对肠道微生物组的支持吗？

Casey Means: Eat more fiber.

凯西的意思是：多吃纤维。

Andrew Huberman: Eat more fiber.

安德鲁·休伯曼：多吃纤维。

And we had Justin Sonnenberg from Stanford on, a world expert in gut microbiome, and he was a big proponent of, based on work he's done with Chris Gardner and others at Stanford, it so happens, of ingesting one to three servings of low-sugar fermented foods each day, things like sauerkraut, kimchi.

我们还有斯坦福大学的贾斯汀·索南伯格（Justin Sonnenberg），他是肠道微生物组的世界专家，根据他与克里斯·加德纳（Chris Gardner）和斯坦福大学其他人所做的工作，他是每天摄入一到三份低糖发酵食品的大力支持者，比如酸菜、泡菜。

Again, low-sugar varieties, probably best, kefir...

再说一遍，低糖品种，可能是最好的，开菲尔......

Yeah, maybe not.

是的，也许不是。

You said not kombucha?

你说不是康普茶？

Casey Means: Yeah, because that's going to be like the highest sugar of the fermented foods, which people often go to, but often costly, too.

凯西的意思是：是的，因为这就像发酵食品中含糖量最高的食品，人们经常食用，但通常也很昂贵。

Andrew Huberman: And pretty costly.

Andrew Huberman：而且成本相当高。

The sauerkraut, you can actually make your own sauerkraut.

酸菜，其实你可以自己做酸菜。

Tim Ferriss had a great recipe for this in "The 4-Hour Chef," you have to be careful because you can create some unhealthy ferment.

蒂姆·费里斯（Tim Ferriss）在《四小时厨师》中对此有一个很好的食谱，你必须小心，因为你可能会产生一些不健康的发酵。

You have to do it the way he describes.

你必须按照他描述的方式去做。

So check out the recipe.

所以检查一下食谱。

It's online.

它在线。

Or you can buy sauerkraut, and the brines — drinking the brine off the sauerkraut or off seems to be good for the gut.

或者你可以买酸菜和盐水——喝酸菜或酸菜中的盐水似乎对肠道有好处。

Casey Means: That's such a great point, which is that ultimately we want the short-chain fatty acids, which is the medicine that the microbiome are making for us through the microbial fermentation process.

凯西的意思是：这是一个非常重要的观点，那就是我们最终需要短链脂肪酸，这是微生物组通过微生物发酵过程为我们制造的药物。

And we can basically do that in three ways.

我们基本上可以通过三种方式做到这一点。

One is we can eat more fiber, which is prebiotics.

一是我们可以多吃纤维，也就是益生元。

We can also eat more polyphenols, because we're now learning that the microbiome actually processes, they ferment polyphenols from our, which is basically, you'll find those in colorful fruits and vegetables, spices, teas, cocoa, things like that.

我们还可以吃更多的多酚，因为我们现在了解到微生物组实际上在加工，它们发酵我们体内的多酚，基本上，你会在五颜六色的水果和蔬菜、香料、茶、可可等中找到它们。

So, fermentation of polyphenols and fiber to short-chain fatty acids, which then we absorb, and then, like you just said, in a fermented food, the bacteria in that food will be making short-chain fatty acids by fermenting the food in there.

所以，多酚和纤维发酵成短链脂肪酸，然后我们吸收，然后，就像你刚才说的，在发酵食品中，食物中的细菌会通过发酵食物来制造短链脂肪酸。

And then if we drink that, we're getting the short-chain fatty acids directly.

如果我们喝它，我们就可以直接获得短链脂肪酸。

So that's the kimchi, sauerkraut, Greek yogurt, kvas, which I'm obsessed with, which is like low-sugar kombucha.

这就是我痴迷的泡菜、酸菜、希腊酸奶、格瓦斯，就像低糖康普茶。

It's like, made with fermenting beets, basically.

基本上就像是用发酵甜菜制成的。

Andrew Huberman: It's good stuff.

安德鲁·休伯曼：这是好东西。

Casey Means: It's such good stuff.

凯西的意思是：这真是个好东西。

Miso natto.

味噌纳豆。

So that's one that has been shown to differentiate more L-cells in the gut.

因此，这已被证明可以分化肠道中更多的 L 细胞。

We also know that people with type 2 diabetes have much fewer L-cells in the gut.

我们还知道 2 型糖尿病患者肠道中的 L 细胞要少得多。

And it's hard to know what the causality is there.

很难知道其中的因果关系是什么。

But I think a safe assumption is, like, if we keep our blood sugar under better control and sort of stay out of that diabetic range, it probably lends itself — I don't know what the chicken and the egg is there, but blood sugar stability, more L-cell differentiation, and then actually ginseng has been shown to improve L-cell differentiation.

但我认为一个安全的假设是，如果我们更好地控制血糖并远离糖尿病范围，它可能会自然而然——我不知道先有鸡还是先有蛋，但血糖稳定，更多的 L 细胞分化，然后实际上人参已被证明可以改善 L 细胞分化。

So that's just sort of one set of things.

这只是一组事情。

And I don't think the dose on ginseng has been settled, but a very high antioxidant component plant.

我认为人参的剂量还没有确定，但人参是一种抗氧化成分非常高的植物。

When we look at actually stimulating more GLP-1, you've talked about yerba mate, I think, having like, a, a mild effect on GLP-1, but there's actually a lot of other things in the literature.

当我们考虑实际刺激更多的 GLP-1 时，您谈到了马黛茶，我认为它对 GLP-1 有轻微的影响，但文献中实际上还有很多其他的东西。

Protein, of course, very potently stimulates these nutrient receptor cells and specifically valine and glutamine seem to have a potent stimulatory effect on GLP-1.

当然，蛋白质非常有效地刺激这些营养受体细胞，特别是缬氨酸和谷氨酰胺似乎对 GLP-1 有有效的刺激作用。

Andrew Huberman: Interesting.

安德鲁·休伯曼：有趣。

Casey Means: So you're gonna find that in like meat and turkey and eggs and things like that.

凯西的意思是：所以你会在肉、火鸡、鸡蛋之类的东西中找到这些。

Andrew Huberman: What are your thoughts on supplementing L-glutamine?

Andrew Huberman：您对补充 L-谷氨酰胺有何看法？

It's controversial.

这是有争议的。

I know that some people do it in an effort to relieve leaky gut, but there aren't any randomized controlled trials for that.

我知道有些人这样做是为了缓解肠漏，但没有任何随机对照试验。

So depending on one stance on what's required for kind of a threshold for adopting something, some people say that's crazy.

因此，根据对采用某种东西的门槛所需的一种立场，有些人说这是疯狂的。

Other people really swear by supplementing L-glutamine.

其他人确实发誓要补充L-谷氨酰胺。

Maybe it's through this route of increasing L-cells that some of the gut relief might exist.

也许正是通过这种增加 L 细胞的途径，才可能缓解肠道症状。

I guess we'd have to explore it.

我想我们必须探索一下。

So that's speculative, folks.

所以这是推测，伙计们。

So this is interesting.

所以这很有趣。

These are ways to increase the cells that then make GLP-1.

这些是增加产生 GLP-1 的细胞的方法。

So fiber, prebiotic, probiotic fiber, and fermented--

所以纤维、益生元、益生菌纤维和发酵——

Casey Means: --antioxidants, lowering blood sugar, ginseng.

凯西的意思是：——抗氧化剂、降血糖、人参。

So those are kind of the L-cell ones.

所以这些都是 L 细胞的类型。

The actual secretion of more GLP-1, one of the most potent ones, and the study that looks at this, like the bar graphs are very clearly statistically significant — lots of asterisks — is actually thylakoids.

更多 GLP-1（最有效的 GLP-1 之一）的实际分泌，以及研究这一点的研究，就像条形图一样，具有非常明显的统计显着性（很多星号），实际上是类囊体。

Andrew Huberman: Thylakoids.

安德鲁·休伯曼：类囊体。

Tell me more about thylakoids.

告诉我更多关于类囊体的信息。

Casey Means: Thylakoids are so fascinating.

凯西的意思是：类囊体是如此迷人。

Thylakoids are actually a structure in plants that are part of the chloroplasts.

类囊体实际上是植物中的一种结构，是叶绿体的一部分。

So you know, chloroplasts.

所以你知道，叶绿体。

And this also is fascinating because chloroplasts are basically the plant version of mitochondria, essentially.

这也很有趣，因为叶绿体本质上是植物版的线粒体。

And thylakoids are a molecule in the chloroplast.

类囊体是叶绿体中的一种分子。

And there's actually been research that shows that when you eat about 100 grams of spinach, which gives you 5 grams of straight thylakoid, over 12 weeks daily, it led to a significant increase in GLP-1.

事实上，有研究表明，当您每天吃大约 100 克菠菜（它可以为您提供 5 克直类囊体）时，连续 12 周，就会导致 GLP-1 显着增加。

And again, I don't remember the exact, it was two- or threefold higher secretion.

再说一次，我不记得确切的数字了，分泌量高出两到三倍。

So this is in part.

所以这只是一部分。

So that's a direct stimulatory effect of the L-cells.

这就是 L 细胞的直接刺激作用。

And so this equates to 3.5 ounces of spinach a day, which is like nothing.

因此，这相当于每天 3.5 盎司的菠菜，这相当于什么都没有。

So just getting raw spinach or cooked spinach.

所以只要吃生菠菜或煮熟的菠菜即可。

I actually, I don't think it actually, it might have said in the methods, but I would imagine raw, because you want to get those undenatured thylakoids in the gut.

事实上，我不认为它实际上，它可能在方法中说过，但我会想象原始的，因为你想在肠道中获得那些未变性的类囊体。

So just kind of another, and actually thylakoids do a lot of other interesting stuff.

所以只是另一种，实际上类囊体做了很多其他有趣的事情。

They inhibit lipase in the gut and so actually help more fat get down to the distal small bowel and promote satiety.

它们抑制肠道中的脂肪酶，因此实际上有助于更多的脂肪到达远端小肠并促进饱腹感。

So this is one of the reasons why you talk about, oh, the people who eat all these healthy foods and greens, they're less hungry.

所以这就是为什么你说，哦，那些吃所有这些健康食品和绿色蔬菜的人，他们不那么饥饿了。

It's like it's biochemistry.

这就像生物化学一样。

Like, there's stuff happening in there that is making the hunger signals go down through things like inhibiting lipase, improving GLP-1 secretion.

就像，那里发生了一些事情，通过抑制脂肪酶、改善 GLP-1 分泌等方式使饥饿信号减弱。

So other things for GLP-1 secretion, the thylakoids, also fibers have been shown, specific amino acids.

因此，GLP-1 分泌的其他物质，类囊体，还有纤维，都已显示出特定的氨基酸。

So high-protein foods, things that involve a lot of valine and glutamine, green tea, and specifically ECGC, that is one of the compounds in green tea that's been shown to stimulate GLP-1, curcumin.

高蛋白食物、含有大量缬氨酸和谷氨酰胺的食物、绿茶，特别是 ECGC，它是绿茶中的化合物之一，已被证明可以刺激 GLP-1 和姜黄素。

So there's several things that are all in that, like whole food, you know, basically things you would associate with a healthy diet, but we actually know they stimulate GLP-1.

所以这里面有很多东西，比如天然食品，你知道，基本上你会与健康饮食联系起来，但我们实际上知道它们会刺激 GLP-1。

So, you know, those are all things I try to include in my diet.

所以，你知道，这些都是我试图包含在我的饮食中的东西。

And the last one is inhibition of DPP-4.

最后一种是抑制DPP-4。

And that one, there's just actually, when you look at the research, there's some kind of random foods that tend to inhibit DPP-4.

事实上，当你查看研究时，会发现某种随机食物往往会抑制 DPP-4。

Black beans, Mexican oregano, other forms of oregano, rosemary, guava.

黑豆、墨西哥牛至、其他形式的牛至、迷迭香、番石榴。

And I wrote this one down because it's a word I hadn't seen very much before I started digging into this.

我写下了这个词，因为在我开始深入研究这个词之前，我很少见过这个词。

But myricetin, which is found in berries, cranberries and peppers and Swiss chard.

但杨梅素存在于浆果、蔓越莓、辣椒和瑞士甜菜中。

So all that is to say, ultimately, many of us are gripped by cravings.

所以这就是说，最终，我们中的许多人都被渴望所控制。

And the idea of just sort of not being constantly driven to eat more, which I would argue that about 80% of Americans are, feels really hard to overcome.

我认为大约 80% 的美国人都是这样，但不总是被迫吃得更多的想法真的很难克服。

But a lot of it is literally just communicating to your cells in a clear way through food to help you be satiated.

但其中很多实际上只是通过食物以清晰的方式与您的细胞进行交流，以帮助您获得饱腹感。

And the science can show us how to do this.

科学可以告诉我们如何做到这一点。

And a lot of it comes down to eating, essentially what you were talking about, how you eat omnivorous protein, healthy sources with nutrient density, and lots of colorful fruits, vegetables, spices, herbs, things like that.

这很大程度上取决于饮食，本质上就是你所谈论的内容，如何吃杂食性蛋白质，营养丰富的健康来源，以及许多色彩缤纷的水果、蔬菜、香料、香草等。

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, it's interesting.

安德鲁·休伯曼：是的，这很有趣。

Again, these aren't randomized controlled trials, nor are they peer-reviewed studies.

再次强调，这些不是随机对照试验，也不是同行评审的研究。

But I have a few friends who I've known for most of my life who really struggled with their weight, carried a lot of excess weight, and were starting to suffer health issues in their, even their 30s.

但我有几个我认识了大半辈子的朋友，他们确实在与体重作斗争，体重超标，甚至在 30 多岁的时候就开始出现健康问题。

But in their 40s, I'm 48, so they're my peers, and so they're about that age range.

但在他们40多岁的时候，我48岁，所以他们是我的同龄人，所以他们的年龄范围也差不多。

And they've all done extremely well, meaning they lost a tremendous amount of body fat, are terrifically healthy now, by way of basically restricting their food intake to proteins.

他们都做得非常好，这意味着他们减少了大量的身体脂肪，现在通过基本上限制蛋白质的食物摄入而变得非常健康。

So fish and meat, eggs, fruits and vegetables, they basically just cut out starches.

所以鱼和肉、蛋、水果和蔬菜，他们基本上只是去掉淀粉。

But I don't think it was the starches per se.

但我不认为这是淀粉本身。

I think it was the satiety that comes from eating high-quality protein, fruits and vegetables and from limiting the number of highly processed foods.

我认为饱腹感来自于食用优质蛋白质、水果和蔬菜以及限制高度加工食品的数量。

And actually, the toughest thing for all of them was to stop asking me, or themselves, rather, like, can I include this condiment, this, this?

事实上，对他们所有人来说，最困难的事情就是停止问我，或者他们自己，比如，我可以加入这种调味品，这个，这个吗？

And what's interesting is all of them now seem to really enjoy eating foods in their more pure form.

有趣的是，他们现在似乎都非常喜欢吃更纯净的食物。

And I'm not somebody that, like, pushes this on my friends.

我不是那种把这件事强加给我的朋友的人。

They just come to me and say, like, how do I lose 50 pounds without having to exercise it all off?

他们只是来找我说，比如，我怎样才能减掉 50 磅而不需要全部锻炼掉？

You know, as the only source of weight loss?

你知道，作为减肥的唯一来源吗？

They all exercise as well, but it's just so daunting to try and lose, you know, 20, 30, 40 pounds and to do so quickly and then to keep it off because they've all had the experience of going on a diet and then exercising a lot.

他们也都锻炼身体，但是尝试减掉 20、30、40 磅，而且要快速减肥，然后再坚持下去，真是令人畏惧，因为他们都有过节食然后大量锻炼的经验。

The point here is that I really think there's something powerful about that relationship between taste, macronutrient value, micronutrient value, and satiety.

这里的要点是，我真的认为口味、常量营养素价值、微量营养素价值和饱腹感之间存在着强大的关系。

I think there's really those powerful associations because the brain is such an associative machine.

我认为确实存在那些强大的关联，因为大脑是一个联想机器。

One thing that I should have said before, and I know most people are familiar with Ozempic, and its commercial names are--

我之前应该说一件事，我知道大多数人都熟悉 Ozempic，它的商业名称是——

Casey Means: --Ozempic is the commercial name, and Mounjaro and Wegovy.

凯西的意思是：--Ozempic 是商业名称，Mounjaro 和 Wegovy。

Andrew Huberman: Got it, is that GLP-1 acts more or less as an appetite suppressant?

Andrew Huberman：明白了，GLP-1 或多或少起到了食欲抑制剂的作用吗？

Powerful appetite suppressant.

强力抑制食欲。

So many millions of people are now taking GLP-1 analogs, is that right?

现在有数百万人正在服用 GLP-1 类似物，对吗？

Casey Means: I think there were over 20 million prescriptions in the United States last year.

Casey Means：我认为去年美国有超过 2000 万张处方。

Andrew Huberman: Is it expensive?

安德鲁·休伯曼：贵吗？

Casey Means: It's $20,000 per year.

凯西的意思是：每年 20,000 美元。

Andrew Huberman: Does insurance cover it?

安德鲁·休伯曼：保险涵盖吗？

Casey Means: Typically right now insurance is covering it for indications, but there is an all-out assault from the pharmaceutical industry to essentially classify obesity as a genetic disease and a chronic disease in order to be able to feed this medication more into the insurance pathway and essentially get more taxpayer dollars to pay for this medication.

凯西的意思是：目前保险通常会针对适应症进行承保，但制药行业发起了全面攻击，将肥胖基本上归类为遗传病和慢性病，以便能够将这种药物更多地纳入保险途径，并从本质上获得更多纳税人的钱来支付这种药物的费用。

And it is extremely expensive, and it's on track to be the highest grossing medication in human history because it's now being recommended for people with obesity, type 2 diabetes.

它非常昂贵，并且有望成为人类历史上收入最高的药物，因为它现在被推荐用于肥胖症和 2 型糖尿病患者。

And then the American Academy of Pediatrics recently has talked about giving this to children as young as 12 as part of the first line for overweight.

美国儿科学会最近讨论了向 12 岁的儿童提供这种药物，作为超重第一线的一部分。

And I think really, it's such a travesty.

我认为这真的是一种讽刺。

Based on the conversation, we've had, because what Ozempic does not do in any way, shape, or form is impact the toxic environment that we're living in that's hurting our mitochondria.

根据我们的对话，因为 Ozempic 不会以任何方式、形状或形式影响我们所生活的有毒环境，从而损害我们的线粒体。

Losing weight is different from improving mitochondrial function.

减肥与改善线粒体功能不同。

And mitochondrial dysfunction is the root cause of basically every chronic illness and symptom that's torturing American lives today.

线粒体功能障碍是当今折磨美国人生活的几乎所有慢性疾病和症状的根本原因。

And so in many ways, it represents the ultimate band-aid for an environment that is not changing.

因此，从很多方面来说，它代表了不变环境的终极创可贴。

And when you think about what we could do with $20,000 per year, and it's a weekly injection, so people will say, well, per person, and it's a medication that is intended to be taken for life, because when people come off this medication, many people are gaining back all of the weight or even more weight afterwards.

当你想到我们每年可以用 20,000 美元做些什么时，这是每周注射一次，所以人们会说，好吧，每人，这是一种打算终生服用的药物，因为当人们停止这种药物时，许多人的体重会全部反弹，甚至更多。

And then there's been conversations — Peter Attia has weighed in on this — about loss in lean mass.

然后就出现了关于瘦体重损失的讨论——彼得·阿提亚（Peter Attia）对此进行了权衡。

Part of the weight loss is disproportionately muscle.

体重减轻的部分原因是肌肉不成比例。

And so there's a lot of concerns about it, above and beyond its ability to lower the number on the scale, that we should all be very alert to.

因此，除了它降低体重秤上的数字的能力之外，人们对它还有很多担忧，我们都应该对此非常警惕。

Because the reality is that the 40 trillion cells in our body are in an environment in the Western world right now that is not conducive to core biologic functioning.

因为现实情况是，我们体内的 40 万亿个细胞目前处于西方世界的环境中，不利于核心生物功能的发挥。

And there is obviously no shot that can mitigate the multifront assault on our biology that ultimately generates a body that's immensely profitable for those hundred specialties of healthcare.

显然，没有任何药物可以减轻对我们生物学的多方面攻击，最终产生一个为数百个医疗保健专业带来巨大利润的身体。

So, you know, we're living in this matrix and this game of, you know, a devil's bargain between a 4-trillion-dollar healthcare and pharmaceutical industry and a 6-trillion-dollar processed-food industry that all want us to think that, you know, the answer is found in a shot.

所以，你知道，我们生活在这个矩阵和这个 4 万亿美元的医疗保健和制药行业与 6 万亿美元的加工食品行业之间的魔鬼交易游戏中，所有人都希望我们认为，你知道，答案就在一瞬间找到。

And we don't need to change anything about our lifestyle.

我们不需要改变我们的生活方式。

But of course, you know, these simple habits that we're talking about, eating real food, moving, walking, etc., getting out in the sunlight rapidly can increase our mitochondrial capacity.

但当然，你知道，我们所说的这些简单的习惯，吃真正的食物，移动，散步等，快速到阳光下出去可以增加我们的线粒体能力。

And, you know, the most disruptive thing that we can do in our culture today is to learn about metabolic health and improve it.

而且，你知道，在当今的文化中，我们能做的最具破坏性的事情就是了解代谢健康并改善它。

And it's just interesting to see what's happening in the media with sort of the assault against these empowering habits and very in favor of a medication like Ozempic.

有趣的是看到媒体上发生的事情，对这些赋予权力的习惯进行攻击，并非常支持像 Ozempic 这样的药物。

And then when you trace, unfortunately, incentives there, a huge percentage of these outlets that cover Ozempic is a miracle drug, their bills are paid by pharma.

不幸的是，当你追踪那里的激励措施时，你会发现这些覆盖 Ozempic 的商店中有很大一部分是一种神奇药物，他们的账单是由制药公司支付的。

Sixty percent of mainstream media advertising budget is pharma.

主流媒体广告预算的 60% 用于制药。

I just say that because I think it's a scandal that we give so much airtime to these medications and not to simple metabolic habits that can make us feel so incredible and really change our core biology.

我之所以这么说，是因为我认为我们花太多时间在这些药物上，而不是简单的代谢习惯上，这让我们感觉如此不可思议，并真正改变了我们的核心生物学，这是一个丑闻。

Andrew Huberman: So walking, exercise, eating minimally processed or nonprocessed foods.

Andrew Huberman：所以散步、锻炼、吃最低限度加工或未加工的食物。

You also mentioned temperature.

你还提到了温度。

Yeah, very, very interested in that.

是的，对此非常非常感兴趣。

But before we go a little bit further down the path of what one can do in terms of having agency over their metabolic health, I just feel obligated to just entertain the possibility.

但在我们进一步探讨人们在代谢健康方面可以做些什么之前，我只是觉得有义务接受这种可能性。

Presumably somebody who's really struggled with their weight a long time, maybe because of excess cravings, challenges in regulating their appetite or whatever.

想必有人长期与体重作斗争，可能是因为过度的渴望、调节食欲的挑战或其他原因。

We don't know what the reasons are.

我们不知道原因是什么。

Maybe they injured their knee and they can't exercise.

也许他们的膝盖受伤了，无法锻炼。

I mean, this happens, at least not yet.

我的意思是，这种情况发生了，至少现在还没有。

Takes a GLP-1 analog like Ozempic, loses some weight, probably loses some muscle also.

服用 GLP-1 类似物（如 Ozempic），会减轻一些体重，可能还会失去一些肌肉。

One would hope that that would give them the sense of, okay, now I can move my body better, I'll start exercising, eating better as well.

人们希望这会给他们一种感觉，好吧，现在我可以更好地移动我的身体，我会开始锻炼，饮食也会更好。

I think that I have to imagine that there's a middle case condition where people are not just relying on pharmaceuticals and not just relying on behavioral routes to improve metabolic health.

我认为我必须想象存在一种中间情况，即人们不仅仅依赖药物，也不仅仅依赖行为途径来改善代谢健康。

Can do both, right?

两者都可以，对吗？

I mean, and one would hope they are, if they're already taking these meds.

我的意思是，如果他们已经在服用这些药物，人们会希望他们是这样。

Or is it the case that when people have a pill or an injection or a potion that gives them the effect that they want, that they just remain sedentary?

或者当人们服用药丸、注射剂或药剂来达到他们想要的效果时，他们只是保持久坐不动？

Casey Means: I think we have to look at history here.

凯西的意思是：我认为我们必须回顾历史。

I mean, first of all, there have been other weight-loss medications throughout history that you've talked about in the podcast, like the fen-phen.

我的意思是，首先，您在播客中谈到过历史上还有其他减肥药物，例如芬芬。

And then there was another one, I think even before that, that made people, their temperature go up.

然后还有另一种情况，我想甚至在那之前，人们的体温就升高了。

That you can--

你可以——

Andrew Huberman: --Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼：——是的。

I used to work on thermal regulation as an undergraduate.

我本科时曾从事热调节方面的工作。

Fen-phen was eventually banned because it caused some cardiac issues.

Fen-phen 最终被禁止，因为它会引起一些心脏问题。

I believe it was a stimulant, fenfluramine.

我相信这是一种兴奋剂，芬氟拉明。

Sorry, it's not fenfluramine alone.

抱歉，这不仅仅是芬氟拉明。

It's a combination of things.

这是多种因素的结合。

That's why it's called Fen-phen.

这就是为什么它被称为Fen-phen。

And then dinitrophenol, which was based on the observation that workers in ammunition factories were being exposed to this stuff and losing a lot of body fat and weight.

然后是二硝基苯酚，这是基于对弹药工厂工人接触这种物质并失去大量身体脂肪和体重的观察。

It actually made its way into the sports community.

它实际上进入了体育界。

It's highly deadly.

这是非常致命的。

Highly deadly.

高度致命。

Just don't even.

只是不甚至。

Don't even look it up.

连看都不用看。

It's highly deadly because the moment people start looking it up, they start thinking about dabbling.

这是非常致命的，因为当人们开始查找它的那一刻，他们就开始考虑涉足这一领域。

The way the internet is now, dinitrophenol.

现在的互联网就是二硝基苯酚。

And I think it has to do with sort of processing of mitochondria.

我认为这与线粒体的加工有关。

I think this is happening in the electron chains in mitochondria.

我认为这发生在线粒体的电子链中。

So anyway, free electrons.

无论如何，自由电子。

Look it up.

查一下。

The bottom line here is that there have been plenty of drugs, mostly stimulants, used to help people lose weight or that have acted directly on the mitochondria.

这里的底线是，已经有很多药物（主要是兴奋剂）用于帮助人们减肥或直接作用于线粒体。

It has not worked out well historically, it just hasn't.

从历史上看，它的效果并不好，事实就是如此。

Casey Means: And I think that I'm not just gonna lump it in...

凯西的意思是：我想我不会只是把它混进去……

It's a different mechanism, so I don't wanna lump it in with past weight-loss drugs.

这是一种不同的机制，所以我不想将其与过去的减肥药混为一谈。

However, if you look at the trends throughout history, the medicalization and pharmacology towards chronic issues has been an abject failure.

然而，如果你看看历史上的趋势，就会发现针对慢性问题的医学化和药理学是彻底失败的。

I don't know of, and I'm sure people can correct in the comments, but of a single chronic condition for which the explosion of the pill to treat and manage that condition has lessened the rates of that condition.

我不知道，而且我相信人们可以在评论中纠正，但有一种慢性疾病，治疗和控制这种疾病的药物的爆炸式增长降低了这种疾病的发病率。

The more SSRIs you prescribe, the more depression we have, the more metformin we prescribe, the more type 2 diabetes rates are going up, the more Ozempic is being prescribed, obesity is going up.

你开的SSRIs越多，我们的抑郁症就越多，我们开的二甲双胍越多，2型糖尿病的发病率就越高，开的Ozempic就越多，肥胖率就会上升。

You know, this is on Wall Street, they're not.

你知道，这是在华尔街，但他们不是。

This is on track to be a blockbuster drug, and they're not assuming the rates of obesity are going to go down.

这有望成为一种重磅药物，而且他们并不认为肥胖率会下降。

That wouldn't actually make sense for the business model.

这对于商业模式来说实际上没有意义。

I mean, these are being talked about at the J.P.

我的意思是，J.P. 正在讨论这些问题。

Morgan Healthcare Conferences.

摩根医疗保健会议。

Do you think they're thinking that this is gonna plummet?

你认为他们认为这会暴跌吗？

No. Like, there are, I can't think of very many chronic conditions for which the explosion of the medication has reduced the frequency of the disease.

不。就像，我想不出有多少慢性疾病是药物的爆炸式增长降低了疾病发生频率的。

That's really something to think about.

这确实是值得思考的事情。

And the reason is, because of exactly what we started this conversation with, they're not actually truly impacting or healing the root cause physiology.

原因是，正是因为我们开始这次对话的原因，它们实际上并没有真正影响或治愈根本原因生理学。

In some cases, they're worsening that root cause physiology.

在某些情况下，它们会使根本原因生理机能恶化。

Like they are inducing oxidative stress.

就像它们会引起氧化应激一样。

They may help with the symptomatic management, but not actually reducing that trifecta that we talked about in the beginning.

它们可能有助于症状管理，但实际上并不能减少我们一开始谈到的三连胜。

And so why do we have reason to believe that medicalizing obesity and not actually getting at the root cause, which has to be impacted by multimodal gentle nudges in our daily life habits and environment, that that's actually gonna reduce the rates of the condition?

那么，为什么我们有理由相信，对肥胖进行药物治疗，而不是真正找到根本原因，而根本原因必须受到我们日常生活习惯和环境中多模式温和推动的影响，这实际上会降低这种疾病的发病率呢？

Andrew Huberman: No, that's very helpful.

安德鲁·休伯曼：不，这非常有帮助。

Okay, so I'll then return to the other question about temperature.

好的，那么我将回到关于温度的另一个问题。

What are some things that can do with temperature?

温度可以起到哪些作用？

And by the way, as I do this, I can't resist any longer.

顺便说一句，当我这样做时，我再也无法抗拒了。

Casey, Dr. Means, brought me this jar of blueberries.

凯西，米恩斯博士，给我带来了这罐蓝莓。

People that know me know that I'm a drive-by blueberry eater.

认识我的人都知道我是一个路过的蓝莓吃者。

So if there's blueberries out on a table I'm gonna take some.

所以如果桌子上有蓝莓我就拿一些。

I've never eaten during a podcast, but I'm going to now, so I'll try and chew quietly.

我从来没有在播客期间吃过东西，但我现在要吃，所以我会试着安静地咀嚼。

Do you want some?

你想要一些吗？

Casey Means: Sure.

凯西的意思是：当然。

Andrew Huberman: I love blueberries, and no, I don't eat them one by one, but I'm going to try and eat them quietly.

Andrew Huberman：我喜欢蓝莓，不，我不会一颗一颗地吃它们，但我会尝试安静地吃它们。

So we'll keep them here in the middle for the time being, and I'm going to eat them by the handful just because I got hungry.

所以我们暂时把它们放在中间，我会一把把它们吃掉，因为我饿了。

And you mentioned berries earlier, and it triggered a neural circuit for me.

你之前提到过浆果，它触发了我的神经回路。

So what about temperature?

那么温度呢？

People that know me, or even that just listen to the podcast, know that I like the cold-shower thing, cold-plunge thing.

认识我的人，甚至只是听播客的人，都知道我喜欢洗冷水澡、冷水浴。

I don't do it every day.

我不是每天都这样做。

I don't do it after resistance-training workouts for at least six hours, and mostly keep it on days separate from the resistance training, because there are some data that can inhibit hypertrophy and strength adaptations.

我不会在至少六个小时的阻力训练后进行锻炼，并且大多在与阻力训练分开的日子进行，因为有一些数据可以抑制肥大和力量适应。

But I like it.

但我喜欢它。

I like it.

我喜欢它。

It feels good.

感觉很好。

I feel great afterwards for many hours.

之后好几个小时我都感觉很棒。

And I believe there are some health effects.

我相信这对健康有一些影响。

And I'm willing to weather the storm of naysayers, because more and more data keep emerging that that's the case.

我愿意经受住反对者的风暴，因为越来越多的数据不断出现表明情况就是如此。

Not all the data are spectacular.

并非所有数据都令人惊叹。

One paper on this actually was just retracted; we need to do an update to an episode to...

实际上，一篇关于此的论文刚刚被撤回；我们需要更新一集......

It's not work from my lab, but I still think that there's a lot of really terrific work on deliberate cold exposure.

这不是我实验室的工作，但我仍然认为在故意寒冷暴露方面有很多非常出色的工作。

What's the deal with temperature and mitochondria?

温度和线粒体有什么关系？

Casey Means: So, no one has basically described this better than you, I feel like, on your platform.

凯西的意思是：所以，我觉得，在你的平台上，基本上没有人比你更好地描述了这一点。

But I think about it very, very simply.

但我想得非常非常简单。

Throughout human history, humans have really, in so many different parts of the world, been exposed to hugely fluctuating temperatures.

纵观人类历史，人类在世界许多不同地区确实经历过剧烈波动的气温。

Like if you look at the Sahara Desert or like a regular day in Colorado, it's like you can go from, let's talk about the Sahara desert.

就像如果你看撒哈拉沙漠或科罗拉多州的日常生活一样，你可以从，让我们来谈谈撒哈拉沙漠。

You can go from 30 degrees to 110 degrees in the span of one day.

一天之内气温可以从 30 度升至 110 度。

And even the concept of indoors is a relatively new concept in human history.

甚至室内的概念在人类历史上也是一个相对较新的概念。

Four walls, insulation, then central heating and cooling.

四墙，隔热，然后集中供暖和制冷。

That's like the last 50, 75 years in most homes.

这就像过去 50、75 年大多数家庭的情况一样。

And so this idea, our cells have evolved to respond to big swings in temperature that very recently we have totally pulled away.

因此，我们的细胞已经进化到能够对温度的大幅波动做出反应，而最近我们已经完全摆脱了这种想法。

And I think that when I think about the mitochondria and increasing their capacity, I'm thinking about, well, how do I use different energetic signals in my environment to essentially get the mitochondria to do better work?

我认为，当我考虑线粒体并提高其能力时，我在想，我如何在我的环境中使用不同的能量信号来让线粒体更好地工作？

And we can think about all the different types of energy that we're exposed to: solar energy, thermal energy, acoustic energy, mechanical energy, you know, food energy, like that's basically what our environment is, right?

我们可以考虑我们接触到的所有不同类型的能源：太阳能、热能、声能、机械能，你知道，食物能源，就像我们的环境基本上一样，对吗？

And thermal energy is a big one of those.

热能就是其中的一大部分。

We can speak to our mitochondria with the language of thermal energy and say, hey, it's cold outside, we need you to print more of yourselves or work harder such that we can create heat inside the body to respond to this stimulus.

我们可以用热能的语言对我们的线粒体说，嘿，外面很冷，我们需要你打印更多的自己或者更加努力地工作，这样我们就可以在体内产生热量来响应这种刺激。

And so that's kind of the framing that I use for it.

这就是我使用的框架。

And, like, you know, this data is hard to know if it's totally accurate, but, like, our population is cooling and some, I think it was data out of Stanford, actually, that was showing that, like, our temperature has gone down like 2% or something like that in the last hundred years.

而且，你知道，这些数据很难知道它是否完全准确，但是，我们的人口正在变冷，我认为这是斯坦福大学的数据，实际上，这表明，在过去的一百年里，我们的气温下降了 2% 左右。

And that fundamentally is mitochondria not working as well as they should.

从根本上来说，这是线粒体没有发挥应有的作用。

Research has shown we're making less ATP in a lot of our cells, and that's a function of mitochondrial dysfunction.

研究表明，我们的许多细胞中产生的 ATP 正在减少，这是线粒体功能障碍的结果。

One fun fact, I don't know if you knew this, but the body makes about 88 pounds of ATP per day for the average American.

一个有趣的事实，我不知道您是否知道这一点，普通美国人的身体每天会产生大约 88 磅 ATP。

So we're constantly making it, and we're constantly recycling it in this, basically, make it, use it, make it, use it, make it so fast that we essentially don't change our weight.

所以我们不断地制造它，我们不断地回收它，基本上，制造它，使用它，制造它，使用它，制造得如此之快，以至于我们基本上不会改变我们的重量。

And of course, as it's being broken down ATP to ADP, we release heat.

当然，当它被分解为 ADP 时，我们会释放热量。

And so I just think of cold as like one of the tools in our tool belt to talk to the mitochondria to say, make more heat.

所以我认为寒冷就像我们工具带中的工具之一，可以与线粒体对话，产生更多热量。

And in a world in which our mitochondria are under siege, I think it's a valuable, often very inexpensive one that we can use.

在我们的线粒体受到围困的世界中，我认为这是我们可以使用的一种有价值的、通常非常便宜的线粒体。

Of course, it does not supplement or replace food, sleep, exercise, but I think it can be a very valuable tool to stimulate, you know, through that signal, to basically make more heat.

当然，它不能补充或取代食物、睡眠、锻炼，但我认为它可以是一个非常有价值的工具，可以刺激，你知道，通过该信号，基本上产生更多的热量。

And we know, of course it can help, and the data is mixed, but increased brown fat, which is mitochondrial dense fat, and have it do more work and whatnot.

我们知道，它当然有帮助，而且数据是混合的，但增加了棕色脂肪，即线粒体致密脂肪，并让它做更多的工作等等。

So ultimately, brown fat is mitochondrial dense fat, and we want to help promote that.

因此，归根结底，棕色脂肪是线粒体致密脂肪，我们希望帮助促进这一点。

So that's how I use cold.

这就是我使用冷的方法。

And then on the heat side, just fascinating how that's kind of acting to help metabolic health through the activation of the heat stock proteins, some of which have the ability to upregulate antioxidant defense systems and quell some of that wildfire that we talked about that can hurt our mitochondria.

然后在热量方面，令人着迷的是，它是如何通过激活热量储备蛋白来帮助代谢健康的，其中一些蛋白质能够上调抗氧化防御系统，并平息我们谈到的一些可能伤害我们线粒体的野火。

So I put them lesser on my list, but, you know, cause we just can't.

所以我把它们放在我的清单上较少，但是，你知道，因为我们就是不能。

We can't avoid the food and, you know, the sleep and the movement.

我们无法避免食物，还有睡眠和运动。

But I think it's a great tool that we can use.

但我认为这是我们可以使用的一个很棒的工具。

Andrew Huberman: I love it.

安德鲁·休伯曼：我喜欢它。

I will just point out that the reason the brown fat is brown at all is because of the density of mitochondria.

我只想指出，棕色脂肪之所以呈棕色，是因为线粒体的密度。

Literally brown down in the microscope.

在显微镜下确实呈棕色。

This is not the kind of fat that is subcutaneous, although it sits around the scapula, neck, upper back.

尽管它位于肩胛骨、颈部、上背部周围，但它不是皮下脂肪。

There's other pockets of it on the body, too.

身体上还有其他口袋。

And such an interesting tissue.

还有这么有趣的组织。

Yeah.

是的。

I don't know why deliberate cold exposure is so controversial.

我不知道为什么故意暴露在寒冷中会引起如此大的争议。

I think it's because people don't like it, and frankly, no one likes getting in it.

我认为这是因为人们不喜欢它，坦白说，没有人喜欢参与其中。

The best part is getting out and how you feel afterwards.

最好的部分是走出去以及离开后的感受。

But I think nothing grates on people like deliberate cold exposure if they don't like deliberate cold exposure, and there's no requirement for it, I think it's a very interesting stimulus.

但我认为，如果人们不喜欢故意暴露在寒冷中，那么没有什么比故意暴露在寒冷中更让人恼火的了，而且没有任何要求，我认为这是一个非常有趣的刺激。

And I think there's also a very interesting relationship between light and temperature, because in most areas of the world, as days get longer, meaning more sunlight available, temperatures go up, and nowadays, we can really divorce ourselves from all this day lengthening and shortening temperature fluctuations.

我认为光和温度之间也存在着非常有趣的关系，因为在世界上的大多数地区，随着白天变长，意味着有更多的阳光照射，温度就会上升，而如今，我们真的可以摆脱白天的延长和缩短的温度波动。

Which is not to say that we should all be running around in a minimal amount of clothing outdoors, but there's just such beautiful data from Dr. Susanna Søberg's work showing, for instance, that deliberate cold exposure then leads to one feeling more comfortable at cold temperatures because you become essentially more of a furnace, more brown fat.

这并不是说我们都应该在户外穿着最少的衣服跑来跑去，但苏珊娜·索伯格博士的研究中有如此美丽的数据表明，例如，故意暴露在寒冷的环境中会让人在寒冷的温度下感觉更舒服，因为你本质上变得更像一个火炉，更多的棕色脂肪。

Anyway, we could go on and on, but I think it's yet another lever of autonomy in terms of taking control of one's health.

不管怎样，我们可以继续说下去，但我认为这是控制个人健康方面的另一个自主杠杆。

As you said, not as critical as food intake and quality, amount and maybe timing as well.

正如你所说，并不像食物的摄入量和质量、数量以及时间那么重要。

Speaking of timing, what are your thoughts on fasting?

说到时间，你对禁食有何看法？

And then, of course, movement and exercise?

当然，还有运动和锻炼？

Casey Means: The way I conceptualize the idea of fasting, obviously, this is one where we need more words.

凯西的意思是：显然，我对禁食概念的理解方式是我们需要更多文字的地方。

Right.

正确的。

Because the word fasting is so limited.

因为禁食这个词是如此有限。

There's so many different parts of this.

这有很多不同的部分。

Andrew Huberman: But skipping breakfast, for me, would be that, or skipping dinner.

安德鲁·休伯曼：但对我来说，不吃早餐就是这样，或者不吃晚餐。

Sometimes I'll skip dinner, sometimes I'll skip breakfast.

有时我会不吃晚餐，有时我会不吃早餐。

Casey Means: Right.

凯西的意思是：对。

I think that some of the most interesting data that I've seen has been about if we reasonably compress our eating into daytime hours during the part of the diurnal cycle when we are supposed to be eating, so essentially matching our chronobiology with our behavior, which, you know, we are diurnal organisms, so we kind of need to respect that.

我认为我见过的一些最有趣的数据是关于我们是否合理地将我们的饮食压缩在昼夜周期中我们应该吃饭的白天时间，因此从本质上使我们的时间生物学与我们的行为相匹配，你知道，我们是昼夜生物，所以我们需要尊重这一点。

Like, when we do that and we compress it in a moderate way, our metabolic health is better.

就像，当我们这样做并以适度的方式压缩它时，我们的代谢健康会更好。

And so some of the studies that have looked at this one that was interesting was, and I think very hopeful for people is that if you take all the food, all the calories that you're going to eat, and eat them in a six-hour window versus a twelve-hour window, totally same amount of calories, exact same food.

所以一些研究这个问题的有趣的研究是，我认为对人们来说非常有希望的是，如果你把所有的食物，所有你要吃的卡路里，在六小时的窗口内和十二小时的窗口内吃掉，就会得到完全相同的卡路里量，完全相同的食物。

This is a controlled experiment.

这是一个对照实验。

People who eat the same amount of calories in a six-hour period are going to have much lower, statistically significantly lower glucose, 24-hour glucose and insulin levels compared to people who just space it out over the course of a 12-hour period.

与在 12 小时内间隔摄入热量的人相比，在 6 小时内摄入相同热量的人的血糖、24 小时血糖和胰岛素水平要低得多，统计上显着降低。

And it makes sense because if you're spacing that food out over the course of 12 hours, that is a different biochemical milieu in your body throughout the day.

这是有道理的，因为如果您在 12 小时内间隔吃不同的食物，那么您体内的生化环境就会全天不同。

It's kind of similar to the walking.

这和走路有点相似。

You know, it's like you are then stimulating insulin several more times.

你知道，这就像你多次刺激胰岛素一样。

You are exposing the bloodstream to insulin and glucose just more throughout the day and giving the bloodstream less of an opportunity to sort of be clear from that glucose and that insulin.

您在一天中将更多的血液暴露于胰岛素和葡萄糖中，并且使血液摆脱葡萄糖和胰岛素的机​​会更少。

And so compressing our eating window seems to be helpful for metabolic health.

因此，压缩我们的饮食窗口似乎有助于代谢健康。

And it's a bang for your buck, right?

这对你来说很划算，对吧？

Like you can eat the same amount of food, you just have to eat in a shorter period of time.

就像你可以吃同样数量的食物一样，你只需在更短的时间内吃完即可。

So for people who want to eat, you know, a lot, maybe just consider compressing it into daytime hours.

因此，对于很多想吃东西的人来说，也许可以考虑将其压缩到白天。

Six-to-eight-hour window.

六到八小时的窗口。

Andrew Huberman: Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。

For me, six is tough.

对我来说，六岁是很难的。

Casey Means: Six is tough.

凯西的意思是：六个很难。

Andrew Huberman: The one-meal-per-day thing is tough.

Andrew Huberman：每天吃一顿饭是很困难的。

I have friends like Lex Friedman that do the one meal per day.

我有像 Lex Friedman 这样的朋友，每天只吃一顿饭。

I end up eating so much food at that meal that I experience a lot of mechanical distress as typically later in the day.

我最终在那顿饭吃了太多的食物，以至于我像当天晚些时候一样经历了很多机械性的痛苦。

I think an eight-to-ten-hour window has worked well for me most days.

我认为八到十小时的时间窗口对我来说大多数时候都很有效。

I know as soon as we talk about intermittent fasting or time-restricted feeding, same thing, which is what we're talking about right now.

我知道，一旦我们谈论间歇性禁食或限时喂养，同样的事情，这就是我们现在谈论的。

I'm sure somebody's going to call up the…

我确信有人会打电话给...

There's been a study that's been circulating about a massive increase in cardiovascular risk in people doing intermittent fasting.

有一项研究表明，间歇性禁食的人心血管风险会大幅增加。

In particular, the six-hour feeding window.

特别是六小时的喂食窗口。

I just want to point out, worst study as far as I know, I could be wrong, but as far as I know, that study is still in abstract form.

我只是想指出，据我所知，这是最糟糕的研究，我可能是错的，但据我所知，该研究仍然处于抽象形式。

It's not yet peer reviewed.

它还没有经过同行评审。

It's like the fact that studies that haven't been peer reviewed, aren't even close to being peer reviewed, are being put out there as news stories is really problematic.

这就像这样一个事实：那些未经同行评审的研究，甚至还没有接近同行评审，却被当作新闻报道来发表，这确实是有问题的。

Because I can tell you as somebody who sat on the editorial boards of many journals for many years, I still sit on a few, reviewed countless papers, I've submitted and had to deal with reviews on countless papers.

因为我可以告诉你，作为一个在许多期刊担任多年编辑委员会的人，我仍然担任少数期刊的编委，审阅了无数的论文，我提交并处理了无数论文的审稿。

The fact of the matter is, like, until the reviews are done, the revisions are made.

事实是，在审查完成之前，就会进行修改。

Like, that paper may never see the light of day, and it may end up in a journal that is barely worthy of a placemat.

就像，那篇论文可能永远不会见光，它最终可能会出现在一本连餐垫都配不上的期刊上。

It might end up in a high-tier, high-quality journal, but it might not.

它可能最终会出现在一本高水平、高质量的期刊上，但也可能不会。

So just because there was “a study” done means very little, but it means especially little, maybe nothing, until it's peer reviewed.

因此，仅仅因为完成了“一项研究”就没有什么意义，但在经过同行评审之前，它的意义特别小，甚至可能没有任何意义。

Casey Means: Absolutely.

凯西的意思是：当然。

And the methods were very poor in that study.

该研究的方法非常糟糕。

It was a recall-based study, I think, for two days of recall of people's diets, which is notoriously very bad in terms of accuracy.

我认为这是一项基于回忆的研究，对人们两天的饮食进行回忆，众所周知，其准确性非常差。

So, yeah, and I think I'm not in any way suggesting that a six-hour window is the optimal window.

所以，是的，我认为我并不是以任何方式建议六小时的窗口是最佳窗口。

I'm just sharing the data that suggests that compressing the window seems to have a favorable effect.

我只是分享一些数据，这些数据表明压缩窗口似乎具有良好的效果。

And I certainly don't do six hours.

我当然不会做六个小时。

But I think when you look at what the average American is doing, which is the average American has 11 eating events per day, and 50% of Americans eat over a 15-hour window per day.

但我认为，当你看看普通美国人在做什么时，你就会发现，美国人平均每天有 11 次饮食活动，50% 的美国人每天吃东西的时间超过 15 小时。

I can recall those because I remember when I was writing the book, I was like, that's a long time, 15 hours and 11 events.

我能回忆起这些是因为我记得当我写这本书时，我想，那是很长的时间，15 个小时和 11 个事件。

And every time you're doing that, you're going to be stimulating this glucose rise in the bloodstream, exposing the blood vessels to that glucose.

每次你这样做时，你都会刺激血液中的葡萄糖升高，使血管暴露在葡萄糖中。

You're going to be turning on all the pathways with insulin to basically store it, or, you know, and it's a strain on the body.

你将用胰岛素打开所有通路来基本上储存它，或者，你知道，这对身体造成压力。

And so I think giving the body time intentionally to allow insulin to come down and to allow glucose to come down, what that does is it generates metabolic flexibility.

因此，我认为有意给身体时间让胰岛素下降并让葡萄糖下降，这样做会产生代谢灵活性。

It gives our body an opportunity to have space to use accessible glucose and then convert into using stored fat.

它使我们的身体有机会使用可获取的葡萄糖，然后转化为使用储存的脂肪。

And that ultimately, is metabolic flexibility.

最终，就是新陈代谢的灵活性。

The ability for the body, giving the body opportunities to use glucose, but then have times when there's not high glucose and insulin around to actually get into the fat stores.

身体的能力，让身体有机会使用葡萄糖，但有时周围没有高葡萄糖和胰岛素来实际进入脂肪储存。

And I think one of the reasons why we have such massive overweight and obesity rates in the country is because with the culture of eating right now, 11 eating events per day, eating over the course of 15 hours per day, I would imagine the average American body is rarely, if ever, tapping into their fat stores for energy in a meaningful way, because we always have glucose available to the body.

我认为我们国家超重和肥胖率如此之高的原因之一是因为现在的饮食文化，每天有 11 次饮食事件，每天饮食时间超过 15 个小时，我想普通美国人很少（如果有的话）以有意义的方式利用脂肪储存来获取能量，因为我们总是有葡萄糖可供身体使用。

If you think about, again, the stats about ultraprocessed food, about 70% of the items on the shelves in the grocery store are ultraprocessed food.

再次考虑一下有关超加工食品的统计数据，杂货店货架上大约 70% 的商品都是超加工食品。

And those ultraprocessed foods are built on refined added sugars and refined added grains.

这些超加工食品是以精制添加糖和精制添加谷物为基础的。

So we're just, we very rarely give the body the opportunity to rest and move into fat burning.

所以我们很少给身体休息和燃烧脂肪的机会。

And that's where compressing the eating window can be valuable.

这就是压缩进食窗口的价值所在。

Obviously, people have talked about this before, but fasting can be a stressor for the body, especially if your body's not used to using fat for energy.

显然，人们之前已经讨论过这一点，但禁食可能会给身体带来压力，特别是如果您的身体不习惯使用脂肪作为能量的话。

And so it's something to ease into and go slow.

所以这是一件需要慢慢来的事情。

But I think if you're slowing down enough to really hear what your body's signals are saying, you can kind of know whether, I think, your fasting is working for you or not.

但我认为，如果你放慢速度，真正听到身体的信号在说什么，你就能知道你的禁食是否对你有效。

I can tell if I've got too many other things going on.

我可以判断我是否还有太多其他事情发生。

I haven't slept well, a lot of stress.

没睡好，压力很大。

I can tell that fasting is kind of making me jittery and not feel good versus if I'm really, if I have good capacity, I can feel that it's actually making, making me feel really incredible.

我可以说，禁食让我感到紧张，感觉不太好，而如果我真的，如果我有足够的能力，我可以感觉到它实际上让我感觉非常不可思议。

And so tune in with your body, obviously, and, you know, you can check your biomarkers if you have a CGM on, you can see what's happening in your glucose.

因此，显然，要调整你的身体，而且，你知道，如果你开启了连续血糖监测，你可以检查你的生物标志物，你可以看到你的血糖发生了什么。

If you have a ketone monitor, you can see what's happening to your ketones and really actually track, which I think makes fasting actually even, even more fun.

如果你有一个酮监测仪，你可以看到你的酮发生了什么，并真正进行跟踪，我认为这实际上使禁食更加有趣。

I'll mention one other piece of data that I think is actually really kind of fun as well, with timing of eating.

我要提到另一项我认为实际上也很有趣的数据，即饮食时间。

There was a study that looked at people who ate the exact same meal at 9:30 a.m.

有一项研究观察了在上午 9:30 吃同样一餐的人。

or 8:30 p.m., so basically after dark, essentially in the part of the diurnal phase when we probably shouldn't be eating, versus early in the morning, 9:30.

或晚上 8:30，所以基本上是在天黑之后，基本上是在我们可能不应该进食的昼夜阶段，而不是清晨，即 9:30。

And the glucose and insulin responses for the same meal at 8:30 p.m.

晚上 8:30 同一餐的血糖和胰岛素反应

were significantly higher than when eating at 9:30 a.m.

明显高于上午 9:30 进食时。

and so again, bang for your buck.

如此反复，物有所值。

It appears that eating in that earlier part of the day, when we're active and our chronobiology is set up for metabolism and activity, we have a lower glucose and insulin response.

看来，在一天的早些时候进食，当我们处于活跃状态并且我们的时间生物学为新陈代谢和活动而建立时，我们的葡萄糖和胰岛素反应就会较低。

There's also some evidence that melatonin, which is secreted as we get closer to sleep, has somewhat of an effect on impairing our insulin sensitivity transiently.

还有一些证据表明，当我们接近睡眠时分泌的褪黑激素对暂时损害我们的胰岛素敏感性有一定影响。

And so we may actually just be not absorbing the glucose from those meals effectively later at night.

因此，我们实际上可能只是在晚上无法有效地吸收这些食物中的葡萄糖。

So I tend to move a little bit more low carb, I would say, throughout the day, based on that data and what I've seen on my continuous glucose monitor, basically just higher spikes for the same meal later in the day.

因此，我会说，根据这些数据和我在连续血糖监测仪上看到的数据，我倾向于全天摄入更多的低碳水化合物，基本上只是在当天晚些时候同一顿饭的峰值更高。

So why not just kind of move it up earlier.

那么为什么不早点将其提升呢？

Andrew Huberman: Very interesting.

安德鲁·休伯曼：非常有趣。

Something I'll definitely try.

我一定会尝试的事情。

I tend to push my carbohydrates to a little bit later in the day for the sake of sleep, unless, of course, I've done resistance training, which I aim to do three times a week.

为了睡眠，我倾向于将碳水化合物的摄入量推到晚些时候，当然，除非我已经进行了阻力训练，我的目标是每周进行三次。

And postresistance training, I try to get some starchy carbohydrate in me just to replenish glycogen, and that then tends to reduce my carbohydrate craving later in the day.

在抗阻训练后，我尝试摄入一些淀粉类碳水化合物来补充糖原，这往往会减少我当天晚些时候对碳水化合物的渴望。

I love bread and butter, bread and olive oil, pastas.

我喜欢面包和黄油、面包和橄榄油、面食。

And the other day, I found this Argentinian place, and I love the steaks there, but they had gnocchi that took everything I had, every neural circuit that releases gaba inhibition to my brain to not order three of those orders, it was so good.

有一天，我发现了这家阿根廷餐厅，我喜欢那里的牛排，但他们的面疙瘩占据了我所有的东西，每个神经回路都会释放伽巴抑制作用到我的大脑，让我不点三份这样的菜，真是太棒了。

Casey Means: But you can walk after the gnocchi.

凯西的意思是：但是你可以跟着面疙瘩走。

Andrew Huberman: Oh, yeah, sure.

安德鲁·休伯曼：哦，是的，当然。

I'll allow myself to do those things.

我会允许自己做这些事情。

I'm not super restricted, but again, I tend to eat high-quality foods.

我没有受到超级限制，但我还是倾向于吃高质量的食物。

By the way, these blueberries are amazing.

顺便说一句，这些蓝莓很棒。

Let me figure out where you got those, because they're just tangy enough.

让我弄清楚你从哪里得到这些的，因为它们已经够浓烈的了。

I'm doing everything I can to just not take the jar and funnel them into my mouth.

我正在尽我所能，不把罐子拿到嘴里。

Yeah, I think if we're looking at blood sugar, blood glucose and insulin, and as long as we're talking about that, I did use a Levels tracker, and full disclosure, they're a sponsor of the podcast regularly.

是的，我认为如果我们关注血糖、血糖和胰岛素，只要我们谈论这些，我确实使用了水平跟踪器，并且完全披露，他们是播客的定期赞助商。

I learned a ton.

我学到了很多。

I'll tell you what I learned.

我会告诉你我学到了什么。

I learned that indeed, my blood sugar goes up after I eat certain foods, although the foods that did this surprise me, certain foods tend to spike my blood sugar quite a bit.

我了解到，事实上，在我吃了某些食物后，我的血糖会上升，尽管这些食物让我感到惊讶，但某些食物往往会使我的血糖升高很多。

Grapes.

葡萄。

That shouldn't be surprising.

这应该不足为奇。

Food order was very powerful for me.

点餐对我来说非常强大。

I know that the data on food order are a little bit mixed, and it's controversial, but I like to eat like the French.

我知道点餐数据有点混杂，而且有争议，但我喜欢像法国人一样吃饭。

I like some soup.

我喜欢喝点汤。

Then I like my entree.

然后我喜欢我的主菜。

I like the salad at the end.

我喜欢最后的沙拉。

That turned out to have the steadiest and lowest rise in blood glucose for me.

事实证明，这对我来说血糖上升最稳定、最低。

And then across time, I also found that I love a hot sauna.

然后随着时间的推移，我也发现我喜欢热桑拿。

I go so hot with the sauna that I've been accused by Rogan and other people.

我蒸桑拿太热了，以至于被罗根和其他人指责。

I'm gonna turn myself into a brisket.

我要把自己变成牛腩。

But after the sauna, my blood sugar spikes, presumably because I'm a bit dehydrated and it's the concentration of blood glucose.

但桑拿结束后，我的血糖飙升，大概是因为我有点脱水，这是血糖浓度。

Is that possible?

这可能吗？

Does that make sense?

这有道理吗？

Casey Means: It does make sense, but also the heat can affect the accuracy of the sensor itself.

Casey的意思是：确实有道理，但热量也会影响传感器本身的精度。

Andrew Huberman: Ah, okay, so that could be it, too.

Andrew Huberman：啊，好吧，那也可能是这样。

But, yeah, basically, what it allowed me to do is make a few adjustments in terms of foods that I eliminated, or eat less of, food ordering within a meal.

但是，是的，基本上，它允许我做的就是对我在一顿饭中取消或少吃的食物进行一些调整。

And I find that I'm very susceptible to, if I don't include enough fat, dietary fat, in the meal, then my blood glucose spikes, even if it's just like tuna.

我发现，如果我在膳食中没有添加足够的脂肪（膳食脂肪），那么我的血糖就会飙升，即使它就像金枪鱼一样。

But by including olive oil and other things, it really blunts it.

但通过加入橄榄油和其他东西，它确实会削弱它。

And of course, here we're doing correlative anecdote data.

当然，我们在这里做的是相关的轶事数据。

But for me, I felt far better when I included a bit more fat.

但对我来说，当我添加更多的脂肪时，我感觉好多了。

And when the food order was adjusted the way I mentioned before, always including a little bit of fiber, really helped.

当食物顺序按照我之前提到的方式调整时，总是包含一点纤维，确实很有帮助。

And that makes sense, right?

这是有道理的，对吧？

Slow the absorption of the food, presumably.

据推测，会减慢食物的吸收。

So I found that it was a very valuable experiment for me.

所以我发现这对我来说是一个非常有价值的实验。

Again, this isn't an advertisement.

再次强调，这不是广告。

It just so happens I did this and really benefited from it.

恰巧我就这么做了，并且确实从中受益匪浅。

What are some other things that one can learn from continuous monitoring of blood glucose?

从持续监测血糖中还可以学到哪些其他知识？

What are some things to watch for that might signal a problem?

需要注意哪些事项可能表明存在问题？

And what are some fun things that one could do to explore and experiment?

人们可以做哪些有趣的事情来探索和实验？

Because I like to explore and experiment.

因为我喜欢探索和尝试。

Casey Means: Yeah, well, I mean, a lot of the things that you just naturally learned are the things that have been shown in data.

凯西的意思是：是的，我的意思是，你自然学到的很多东西都是数据中显示的东西。

And like you said, some of this data, it's like small studies, small groups of people.

就像你说的，其中一些数据就像小型研究，一小群人。

But, for instance, adding fat and fiber to meals has a significant and repeatable impact in populations on lowering glucose response.

但是，例如，在膳食中添加脂肪和纤维对降低人群的葡萄糖反应具有显着且可重复的影响。

Fat probably in some part due to slowing gastric emptying and actually slowing the digestion process.

脂肪可能在某种程度上是由于减慢了胃排空并实际上减慢了消化过程。

So the rise in the bloodstream stream is going to slow down, and then fiber, both for that reason, but also because fiber can, in a sense, create like a mesh, sort of blocking the absorption of some of the glucose that's in the meal.

因此，血流的上升速度将会减慢，然后是纤维，这既是出于这个原因，也是因为纤维在某种意义上可以形成网状结构，有点阻碍食物中某些葡萄糖的吸收。

So literally kind of actually preventing you from absorbing all of the carbs.

所以从字面上看，实际上是在阻止你吸收所有的碳水化合物。

And we've actually seen that in the Levels data set that the more fiber people include with their meals, we see essentially a direct relationship with lowering of their glucose excursions, which is really exciting because fiber is something that you can add to meals very easily.

我们实际上已经在水平数据集中看到，人们在膳食中摄入的纤维越多，我们发现本质上与降低血糖波动有直接关系，这确实令人兴奋，因为纤维是您可以很容易地添加到膳食中的东西。

I put basil seeds, chia seeds, hemp seeds, flax seeds on a lot of my food at this point, because it's essentially a little bit of fat, a lot of fiber, and it kind of just helps you kind of get more from your meal.

此时，我在很多食物中加入罗勒籽、奇亚籽、大麻籽、亚麻籽，因为它本质上是一点脂肪，大量纤维，它只是帮助你从膳食中获得更多。

So what you can learn, so I think, step one, the way I think about a glucose monitor, first of all, I'll say the purpose of the glucose monitor is not to have to game the system and get flat glucose.

所以你可以学到什么，所以我认为，第一步，我对血糖监测仪的看法，首先，我会说血糖监测仪的目的不是必须欺骗系统并获得稳定的血糖。

The purpose of the glucose monitor is curiosity.

血糖监测仪的目的是出于好奇。

It's to start to understand how it's essentially an MRI for how all of our different dietary and lifestyle strategies are creating this readout of glucose in our body, which I think can be really interesting, and in a world where so many cards are stacked against us with diet and lifestyle, and where there's a lot of confusion about what's right for us, that can be, like, very helpful in actually reducing the confusion and the cognitive load of our choices.

我们要开始了解它本质上是如何通过核磁共振成像来了解我们所有不同的饮食和生活方式策略如何在我们的体内产生这种葡萄糖读数，我认为这非常有趣，在一个饮食和生活方式有如此多的牌对我们不利的世界中，并且对于什么是适合我们的存在很多困惑，这对于实际上减少我们选择的困惑和认知负担非常有帮助。

We know that keeping your blood sugar through the course of a lifetime in a low and healthy range, so I don't mean up and down spikes during the day, but keeping your blood sugar healthy throughout the course of your lifetime is probably the best thing we can do for longevity, staying insulin sensitive, staying out of the diabetic range.

我们知道，在一生中将血糖保持在较低且健康的范围内，所以我并不是指白天的上下波动，而是在一生中保持血糖健康可能是我们为长寿、保持胰岛素敏感性、远离糖尿病范围所能做的最好的事情。

And so one thing that the glucose monitor does for us is just give us more awareness and agency into, like, what the trends of our glucose are over time, as opposed to a, literally, one data point snapshot once a year in the doctor's office, which is what the majority of us are used to.

因此，血糖监测仪为我们做的一件事就是让我们更多地了解和代理我们的血糖随时间的变化趋势，而不是每年在医生办公室拍摄一次数据点快照，这是我们大多数人所习惯的。

I really love the idea that people who are able to wear glucose monitors every now and again, maybe once a year, or maybe more than once a year, they know what their glucose is, and so they're never going to walk into a doctor's office and have a bomb dropped on them about prediabetes or type 2 diabetes, because you have the data, which is ultimately, I hope, the world that we can move towards for a lot of biomarkers.

我真的很喜欢这样的想法：那些能够时不时地佩戴血糖监测仪的人，也许一年一次，或者一年不止一次，他们知道自己的血糖是多少，所以他们永远不会走进医生的办公室，并被一颗关于前驱糖尿病或2型糖尿病的炸弹扔在他们身上，因为你拥有数据，我希望，这最终是我们可以为许多生物标记物迈向的世界。

So you can see trends over time, which I think is very valuable.

所以你可以看到随着时间的推移的趋势，我认为这是非常有价值的。

One thing that's fascinating in terms of early prediction of metabolic disease, is that you can see how long it takes your glucose to come down after a meal.

在代谢疾病的早期预测方面，一件令人着迷的事情是，您可以看到餐后血糖需要多长时间才能下降。

So in a normal, healthy insulin sensitive body, even if the glucose goes way up, it should come way down very quickly because the insulin is binding to insulin receptors and the glucose is getting taken up and it'll lower

因此，在正常、健康的胰岛素敏感身体中，即使血糖大幅上升，它也应该很快下降，因为胰岛素与胰岛素受体结合，并且葡萄糖被吸收，它会降低

Andrew Huberman: What is quickly?

Andrew Huberman：什么是快？

Over the course of--

在这个过程中——

Casey Means: --It should be down by two hours.

凯西的意思是：——应该缩短两个小时。

But from what I've actually seen in our, like, most insulin sensitive people, and also in research that looks at young, healthy populations, you should basically be spiking and coming down, spike about 45 minutes and come down hour and a half, 90 minutes to two hours.

但根据我在大多数胰岛素敏感人群中的实际观察，以及针对年轻健康人群的研究，基本上应该是峰值和下降，峰值约 45 分钟，下降一个半小时、90 分钟到两个小时。

Andrew Huberman: But if this is after, sorry, after the last bite?

安德鲁·胡伯曼：但如果这是在，抱歉，最后一口之后呢？

Casey Means: After the last bite, although it's hard to kind of exactly know, but, yeah, meal is over, I would say about 45 minutes to go up to the peak and then start coming down very quickly.

凯西的意思是：吃完最后一口后，虽然很难确切知道，但是，是的，用餐结束了，我想说大约 45 分钟到达山顶，然后很快开始下山。

Now if you start to see that glucose is going up and then trailing very slowly back down to normal, maybe taking more than two hours, three hours, that is going to be one of those early indicators of potential insulin resistance.

现在，如果您开始看到血糖上升，然后非常缓慢地回到正常水平，可能需要两个多小时，三个小时，这将是潜在胰岛素抵抗的早期指标之一。

Your body's not clearing the glucose, but that's not a metric that we use in standard practice at all.

您的身体没有清除葡萄糖，但这根本不是我们在标准实践中使用的指标。

And I've actually seen myself very insulin sensitive.

事实上，我发现自己对胰岛素非常敏感。

My insulin is like 2.5, and, you know, if I don't sleep and I am stressed and I have been sitting, my glucose will take way longer to come down.

我的胰岛素大约是 2.5，而且，你知道，如果我不睡觉、压力很大并且一直坐着，我的血糖将需要更长的时间才能下降。

I have become transiently insulin resistant.

我出现了短暂的胰岛素抵抗。

So I think that's just fascinating to see.

所以我认为这很有趣。

So, looking at what that, ultimately, the metric that we call that is area under the curve.

因此，最终我们所说的指标是曲线下面积。

You want a low area under the curve, AUC, after a glucose spike.

在葡萄糖峰值后，您希望曲线下面积 (AUC) 较低。

So you want to spike and come down quickly.

所以你想要快速上升并下降。

That's going to.

就这样了。

If you shade the area under the curve, it's a small amount.

如果对曲线下方的区域进行阴影处理，则该区域的量很小。

If you go up and then trail off for two to three hours, um, that's going to be a lot of shading under that curve.

如果你上升然后下降两到三个小时，嗯，那条曲线下会有很多阴影。

And high AUC is associated with insulin resistance, basically.

高 AUC 基本上与胰岛素抵抗相关。

Another thing that you can see is essentially glycemic variability.

您可以看到的另一件事本质上是血糖变异性。

And glycemic variability, GV, is a metric of how spiky your curves are.

血糖变异性 (GV) 是衡量曲线尖峰程度的指标。

Fascinating paper out of Michael Snyder's lab at Stanford, in 2018, called "Glucotypes reveal new patterns of glucose dysregulation." Totally landmark study, but basically they put continuous glucose monitors on nondiabetic individuals who, by standard criteria of diabetes, do not have diabetes.

2018 年，迈克尔·斯奈德 (Michael Snyder) 斯坦福大学实验室发表了一篇引人入胜的论文，题为“糖型揭示了葡萄糖失调的新模式”。完全具有里程碑意义的研究，但基本上他们对非糖尿病个体进行了连续血糖监测，根据糖尿病的标准标准，这些个体没有患有糖尿病。

And he showed that on a CGM, a continuous glucose monitor, you have these low variability people that are pretty much flat throughout the day with little teeny rolling hills after their meals.

他还表明，在连续血糖监测仪（CGM）上，这些人的变化性很低，他们全天的血糖水平几乎持平，饭后的血糖水平也有一些微小的起伏。

You have moderately spiky people, and then you have very spiky people who are going up, down, up, down, up, down, up, down.

有中度尖峰的人，也有非常尖峰的人，他们不断上、下、上、下、上、下、上、下。

When you correlate those different patterns of glycemic variability in nondiabetic people, you find that the spikier they are, the worse their biomarkers are, metabolically across the board, insulin, triglycerides, etc. So basically, they're showing signs through variability of underlying dysfunction that you would never know from a standard test.

当你将非糖尿病患者的这些不同的血糖变异模式关联起来时，你会发现他们的血糖波动越大，他们的生物标志物就越差，包括胰岛素、甘油三酯等。所以基本上，他们通过潜在功能障碍的变异性显示出一些迹象，而这些迹象是你从标准测试中永远无法得知的。

Those are the people who I imagine are probably gonna go on to develop diseases, and yet, based on standard criteria, their doctors are telling them that they're fine, that they're all the same.

我想象这些人可能会继续患上疾病，然而，根据标准，他们的医生告诉他们，他们很好，他们都是一样的。

So he also showed in that study that nondiabetic individuals, when you have a CGM on, are going into the diabetic range and the prediabetic range a fairly significant amount.

因此，他还在该研究中表明，非糖尿病患者在进行连续血糖监测时，会进入糖尿病范围和糖尿病前期范围相当大的范围。

And we would never know that if you weren't, if you weren't actually tracking, like, a movie of the glucose.

如果你不这样做，如果你没有真正跟踪，就像一部关于葡萄糖的电影，我们永远不会知道这一点。

So that's glycemic variability, area under the curve.

这就是血糖变异性，即曲线下面积。

Those are two things.

这是两件事。

Another really interesting thing you can know from a CGM is dawn effect.

您可以从 CGM 中了解到的另一件非常有趣的事情是黎明效应。

So dawn effect is basically a term in the literature for how high your glucose rises right when you wake up in the morning.

因此，黎明效应基本上是文献中的一个术语，指的是早晨醒来时血糖升高的程度。

I don't know if you noticed this when you were wearing a CGM, but some people noticed that the second they wake up, their glucose jumps up 5, 10, 20, 30 points.

我不知道你在佩戴 CGM 时是否注意到这一点，但有些人注意到，他们一醒来，他们的血糖就会猛增 5、10、20、30 点。

What's happening here is that the cortisol-awakening response to actually get you to wake up and get out of bed, that cortisol can cause you to dump a bunch of glucose from your liver, because it's basically saying, stress hormone, cortisol, we’ve gotta get up.

这里发生的情况是，皮质醇唤醒反应实际上让你醒来并起床，皮质醇会导致你从肝脏中排出大量葡萄糖，因为它基本上是在说，压力荷尔蒙，皮质醇，我们必须起床。

We need glucose to fuel the muscles.

我们需要葡萄糖来为肌肉提供能量。

Let's dump a little glucose so it's normal.

让我们倒掉一点葡萄糖，这样就正常了。

But what the research shows is that the magnitude of the dawn effect is correlated with insulin resistance.

但研究表明，黎明效应的强度与胰岛素抵抗相关。

So the more the dawn effect you're getting, I think it can signal maybe the more stress you're under, the more cortisol you have floating around, how big your cortisol-awakening response is.

因此，你获得的黎明效应越多，我认为它可能表明你承受的压力越大，你周围漂浮的皮质醇就越多，你的皮质醇觉醒反应有多大。

But also, if you imagine if you're dumping all that glucose from your liver and your cells aren't taking it up well because you're insulin resistant, that response, that dawn effect is going to be higher.

而且，如果你想象一下，如果你从肝脏中排出所有葡萄糖，而你的细胞由于胰岛素抵抗而无法很好地吸收它，那么这种反应，即黎明效应将会更高。

So I don't have the numbers right in front of me, but typically, I would want to see a dawn effect, I think of, like, less than 10 points.

所以我面前没有数字，但通常情况下，我希望看到黎明效果，我认为，比如，少于 10 点。

So you wake up and you may very well see a rise.

所以当你醒来时，你很可能会看到上升。

This is the absence of any food yet, and you do not want to see that going up 20, 30, 40 points.

这是还没有任何食物，你不想看到上涨 20、30、40 点。

Some people see a little bump, again, with caffeine in the morning because it's more cortisol.

有些人在早上喝咖啡时会再次看到一点点的颠簸，因为它含有更多的皮质醇。

And so that's another thing that standard stuff would never tell you.

所以这是标准东西永远不会告诉你的另一件事。

So those are kind of some of looking at early predictors of metabolic dysfunction.

这些都是代谢功能障碍的早期预测因素。

More of the fun stuff is, like, actually just figuring out, like, how is food affecting your body?

更有趣的事情是，实际上只是弄清楚，食物是如何影响你的身体的？

And this is where people really enjoy it and, like, figure out, like, oh my God, this food that I thought was healthy is actually not serving me.

这就是人们真正喜欢它的地方，就像，弄清楚，就像，天哪，我认为健康的这种食物实际上不适合我。

And actually a lot of people, I think, who are trying to make healthy choices.

我认为实际上很多人都在努力做出健康的选择。

My boyfriend, when we started dating, he started using Levels.

我的男朋友，当我们开始约会时，他开始使用级别。

His healthy snack, he worked in Venice, would be to go to Moon Juice and get, oh, gosh, I don't want to throw Moon Juice under the bus here, but he would--

他在威尼斯工作时的健康零食就是去 Moon Juice，然后得到，哦，天哪，我不想把 Moon Juice 扔到公共汽车下面，但他会——

Andrew Huberman: They have some tasty stuff--

Andrew Huberman：他们有一些美味的东西--

Casey Means: They do.

凯西的意思是：确实如此。

But he would get this green juice that was sweetened with dates, and it was like $9.00.

但他会买这种加了枣子的青汁，价格大约是 9 美元。

And this is like, the healthy choice.

这就像，健康的选择。

And he saw the second he put on Levels that it was causing a huge spike, like 50, 60, 70 points.

当他设置等级时，他发现等级出现了巨大的峰值，比如 50、60、70 点。

And then he was crashing, and he was actually trying to make a good decision.

然后他就崩溃了，他实际上是在努力做出一个好的决定。

So now he's swapped his snacks out for more, like, grass-fed cheese and some flax crackers and maybe a venison stick or something like grab-and-go stuff that isn't spiking his glucose.

所以现在他把零食换成了更多的零食，比如草饲奶酪和一些亚麻饼干，也许还有鹿肉棒或类似不会让他的血糖升高的即拿即走的东西。

But I think it can help people figure out which foods are doing what I want them to do and which maybe aren't.

但我认为它可以帮助人们弄清楚哪些食物正在做我希望它们做的事情，哪些可能没有。

And the same thing happened for so many of our members with oatmeal.

同样的事情也发生在我们许多吃燕麦片的会员身上。

Unfortunately, oatmeal, instant oatmeal, is one of the biggest spikers in our data set for breakfast.

不幸的是，燕麦片（即即食燕麦片）是我们早餐数据集中最大的亮点之一。

And a lot of people are making that choice because they think it's heart healthy.

很多人做出这样的选择是因为他们认为这有益于心脏健康。

And in many people, it's actually causing a big glucose excursion and crash, and then in some other people, it's not.

对许多人来说，它实际上会导致血糖大幅波动和崩溃，但对另一些人来说，情况并非如此。

And so it's really helping with, what are the sneaky spikers and where's the biochemical individuality?

所以它真的很有帮助，什么是偷偷摸摸的尖峰，生化个性在哪里？

And there was a phenomenal paper out of Israel from Cell about seven years ago called "Personalized nutrition by prediction of glycemic responses." It made big waves, but it basically showed that you and I could eat the same handful of blueberries and have totally different glycemic responses.

大约七年前，以色列的《细胞》杂志发表了一篇引人注目的论文，名为“通过预测血糖反应进行个性化营养”。它引起了很大的轰动，但它基本上表明，你和我可以吃同一把蓝莓，但血糖反应却完全不同。

So the idea of glycemic index as, like, a certain amount of food with a certain amount of glucose causes a certain glucose rise, it kind of debunked that.

因此，血糖指数的想法是，一定量的食物和一定量的葡萄糖会导致一定的血糖升高，它在某种程度上揭穿了这一点。

And that matters because repeated, sustained glycemic variability over time is not good for our health.

这很重要，因为随着时间的推移，反复、持续的血糖变化对我们的健康不利。

We want to choose the foods or balance the foods that are going to keep us relatively more stable.

我们想要选择或平衡那些能让我们相对更稳定的食物。

So that's very helpful, just understanding your personal response to food.

所以这非常有帮助，只需了解您对食物的个人反应即可。

And then what are the lifestyle strategies you can use?

那么你可以使用哪些生活方式策略呢？

Sleeping better, walking after meals, more resistance training, cold plunging, breath work that can actually serve to modulate the food environment to actually reduce the glucose spikes.

更好的睡眠、饭后散步、更多的阻力训练、冷蹲、呼吸工作，这些实际上可以用来调节食物环境，从而真正减少血糖峰值。

And people find that all of those things can positively impact glucose spikes, especially the walks after meals.

人们发现所有这些事情都能对血糖峰值产生积极影响，尤其是饭后散步。

But it's been fascinating to see a lot of women, especially menopausal women in our community, who find that their glucose patterns are getting worse because estrogen's dropping, and that's gonna, you know, really take a hit on insulin sensitivity.

但令人着迷的是，我们社区中的许多女性，尤其是更年期女性，发现她们的血糖模式变得更糟，因为雌激素下降，这确实会对胰岛素敏感性造成影响。

They start resistance training, glucose comes kind of right back down.

他们开始进行阻力训练，血糖很快就会下降。

So because of the monitor, they can feel more confident in the intervention they've chosen to do to help with metabolism, and that kind of creates a virtuous cycle.

因此，由于有了监测仪，他们可以对自己选择的帮助新陈代谢的干预措施更有信心，从而形成良性循环。

So those are some of the big things.

这些是一些重要的事情。

Andrew Huberman: Those are big.

安德鲁·休伯曼：那些很大。

Casey Means: Can I mention one more?

凯西的意思是：我可以再提一个吗？

I could obviously talk about this all day.

我显然可以整天谈论这个。

I think it's fascinating.

我认为这很有趣。

But this is just one more that I think is fascinating, because this was a paper in Nature from last year that talked about, and this might actually be one of the most valuable things to people, which is that, again, talking about cravings.

但这只是我认为更有趣的一个，因为这是去年《自然》杂志上的一篇论文，其中谈到了这实际上可能是对人们最有价值的事情之一，那就是再次谈论渴望。

We all want to get off the craving grip.

我们都想摆脱欲望的束缚。

This paper in Nature showed that essentially, when people spike their glucose with high-carb, high-starchy foods, they'll often have a big crash afterwards.

《自然》杂志上的这篇论文表明，从本质上讲，当人们用高碳水化合物、高淀粉食物来提高血糖时，他们通常会在之后出现严重的崩溃。

And the reason for that is because a big spike leads to a lot of insulin secretion, and then you soak up all the glucose and sometimes you can actually go below your baseline.

其原因是因为大幅峰值会导致大量胰岛素分泌，然后您吸收所有葡萄糖，有时您实际上可能会低于基线。

So a small spike usually won't lead to a crash, but a big spike often will.

因此，小峰值通常不会导致崩溃，但大峰值通常会导致崩溃。

That's called reactive hypoglycemia.

这就是所谓的反应性低血糖。

Postprandial hypoglycemia.

餐后低血糖。

A lot of people think they're dealing with hypoglycemia, when in fact, what they're really dealing with is that they're spiking their glucose too high and then they're crashing.

许多人认为他们正在应对低血糖症，而事实上，他们真正要应对的是他们的血糖水平过高，然后他们就崩溃了。

Andrew Huberman: I see.

安德鲁·休伯曼：我明白了。

Casey Means: And the paper showed that the extent of postmeal dips, the crash after the spike, was predictive of 24-hour energy intake and cravings for carbohydrates.

凯西·米恩斯：这篇论文表明，餐后下降的程度，即高峰后的下降程度，可以预测 24 小时的能量摄入量和对碳水化合物的渴望。

And this makes sense, if you crash low, that is a signal to your body.

这是有道理的，如果你跌得很低，那就是向你的身体发出的信号。

We have to get our glucose back up and it will drive you to eat high-energy foods, carbohydrate-rich foods and cravings.

我们必须恢复血糖，这会驱使你吃高能量食物、富含碳水化合物的食物和渴望。

So one of the best things we can do, I believe from my personal experience, from members' experience and with some data to support this, is that one of the adjuncts we can use to monitor our, to manage our cravings is actually to, like, lower the extent of our spikes so that we crash less.

因此，我相信，根据我的个人经验、会员的经验以及一些支持这一点的数据，我们能做的最好的事情之一是，我们可以用来监控我们的渴望、管理我们的渴望的辅助手段之一实际上是降低我们的峰值程度，这样我们就会减少崩溃。

And so that was a fascinating study looking at CGM data.

这是一项关于 CGM 数据的有趣研究。

Andrew Huberman: That's interesting.

安德鲁·休伯曼：这很有趣。

So the CGMs can reveal things not just in the immediate meal period, but can relate to sort of downstream consequences.

因此，连续血糖监测不仅可以揭示就餐期间的情况，还可以与下游后果相关。

Yeah.

是的。

Again, I found it to be tremendously useful.

我再次发现它非常有用。

I'm so glad you mentioned sleep, by the way.

顺便说一句，我很高兴你提到睡眠。

I'm going to resist the temptation to rattle off 20 studies showing that, oh God, even having too much bright light in a room while one is sleeping at night, even dim light, which is — I don't want to scare people into thinking they have to sleep in complete darkness, although an eye mask can be great — can alter morning blood glucose levels.

我会抵制住诱惑，滔滔不绝地列出 20 项研究，这些研究表明，天啊，即使晚上睡觉时房间里有太多明亮的光线，甚至昏暗的光线（我不想吓唬人们，让他们认为他们必须在完全黑暗的环境中睡觉，尽管眼罩可能很棒），也会改变早晨的血糖水平。

I believe it was adults and kids as well.

我相信大人和孩子都一样。

It was a study in Proceedings in the National Academy of Sciences.

这是《美国国家科学院院刊》上的一项研究。

I have to go back and check if it included kids, but pretty striking.

我必须回去检查是否包括孩子，但非常引人注目。

And then there's something very clear about the fact that when people get the early night sleep of four to five hours, but then don't get the REM-dominating last hour or two of sleep in the morning, that resting blood glucose is altered.

还有一个非常清楚的事实是，当人们早睡四到五个小时，但在早上的最后一两个小时没有进行快速眼动睡眠时，静息血糖就会发生改变。

It's so interesting to think about what's going on in sleep.

思考睡眠中发生的事情真是太有趣了。

There's at least one paper that I'm aware of where they had people breathing into a tube during sleep to measure what sorts of metabolism they were undergoing.

据我所知，至少有一篇论文让人们在睡眠时向管子里呼吸，以测量他们正在经历什么样的新陈代谢。

And it's interesting, during a full night's sleep, all of us seem to transition between different forms of metabolism — I'll send you this paper, it's really cool and I'll put a link to it in the show note captions — such that at one portion of the night we're relying more on, let's just call it sugars, for sake of simplicity.

有趣的是，在一整夜的睡眠中，我们所有人似乎都在不同形式的新陈代谢之间进行转换——我会寄给你这篇论文，它真的很酷，我会在节目注释标题中放一个链接到它——这样，在晚上的某个时间段，我们会更多地依赖，为了简单起见，我们就称之为糖。

Other times we're more ketone dominant.

其他时候我们更以酮为主。

Marked shifts in metabolism throughout the night.

整个晚上新陈代谢发生显着变化。

It's almost like the brain and body cycle through all the different modes of metabolism throughout the night, and then almost like a rehearsal of the metabolic pathways, if, you know, we can anthropomorphize a bit here.

这几乎就像大脑和身体在整个晚上循环通过所有不同的新陈代谢模式，然后几乎就像代谢途径的排练，如果，你知道，我们可以在这里拟人化一点。

But then if sleep is truncated, it clearly has an effect on daytime fuel regulation.

但如果睡眠被缩短，它显然会对白天的燃料调节产生影响。

Just so interesting.

太有趣了。

So getting sufficient sleep, getting quality sleep is absolutely key.

所以充足的睡眠、优质的睡眠绝对是关键。

There's a lot for people to pay attention to, but you've given us a lot of tractable avenues for people to do that that are mostly behavioral.

人们需要注意的事情有很多，但是您为我们提供了许多易于处理的途径，让人们可以做到这一点，其中大部分是行为方面的。

There's a few don'ts, but mostly some dos.

有一些不该做的事情，但大多数情况下还是有一些该做的事情。

We haven't mentioned that you don't need to even perhaps belong to a gym.

我们没有提到您甚至不需要加入健身房。

And with the cold exposure thing, I always say if anything, it'll save you money on the heating bill.

对于寒冷的暴露，我总是说，如果有的话，它会为你节省取暖费。

There's a literally potential negative cost there.

这确实存在潜在的负成本。

I think Levels and other CGMs are really interesting and valuable to experiment with.

我认为 Levels 和其他 CGM 非常有趣且值得尝试。

What sorts of other stuff is going to soon be monitored in our blood?

我们的血液中还会监测哪些其他物质？

Because, for instance, I would love to know continuous hormone levels, lipid levels, blood sugar levels.

因为，例如，我很想知道连续的激素水平、血脂水平、血糖水平。

I mean, are we moving past just blood glucose?

我的意思是，我们是否要超越血糖？

And are there soon to be other things in these monitors?

这些显示器中很快还会有其他东西吗？

So that when we, and by the way, if you haven't used this, it's really cool.

因此，当我们使用它时，顺便说一句，如果您还没有使用过它，那它真的很酷。

You just take your phone, you scan it over the sensor, and then it basically gives you a chart graph of what's going on in your bloodstream.

你只需拿起手机，通过传感器进行扫描，然后它基本上就会为你提供一个图表，显示你的血液中发生的情况。

Casey Means: And now they're all, the latest gen of each of them are all Bluetooth now.

凯西的意思是：现在它们全部都是，最新一代的都是蓝牙了。

So no more scanning, which is kind of nice.

所以不再需要扫描，这很好。

And the answer is yes.

答案是肯定的。

There are several different analytes that we're going to be able to track.

我们将能够跟踪几种不同的分析物。

And Abbott, which is one of the three main manufacturers of CGMs, has announced that they have a new product called the Lingo, which is going to actually be able to measure ketones, lactate and alcohol continuously, which is pretty interesting from a metabolic, comprehensive metabolic standpoint.

三大 CGM 制造商之一的雅培 (Abbott) 宣布，他们有一款名为 Lingo 的新产品，它实际上能够连续测量酮、乳酸和酒精，从代谢、综合代谢的角度来看，这非常有趣。

Different sensors for each, not all in one.

每个传感器都有不同的传感器，而不是全部集成在一起。

So I think we'll have to polka dot ourselves if we're tracking all those things.

所以我认为如果我们要追踪所有这些事情，我们就必须自己做圆点。

And then Dexcom, which is the other main company that makes CGMs, has just announced that they're coming out with an over-the-counter, nonprescription version of a CGM called the Stelo later this year.

然后，另一家生产 CGM 的主要公司 Dexcom 刚刚宣布，他们将在今年晚些时候推出一种名为 Stelo 的非处方非处方 CGM 版本。

So there's exciting things happening in the industry, and I really do think continuous monitoring, it's gonna expand to a lot of these other things that you're talking about, hormones, etc. And, I mean, it really needs to.

因此，这个行业正在发生一些令人兴奋的事情，我确实认为持续监测，它将扩展到您正在谈论的许多其他事情，激素等。而且，我的意思是，它确实需要这样做。

I think that snapshots of a dynamic system are just never gonna really be able to give us a full picture on what's going on.

我认为动态系统的快照永远无法真正让我们全面了解正在发生的事情。

And what we really wanna be able to do to dig our way out of this healthcare crisis, I think, is empowerment individually and understanding how this rapidly changing environment is affecting our own biology so we can make the targeted choices to hopefully change the environment to be more conducive to cellular health.

我认为，我们真正想要摆脱这场医疗危机的方法是赋予个人权力，并了解这种快速变化的环境如何影响我们自身的生物学，以便我们能够做出有针对性的选择，希望改变环境，使其更有利于细胞健康。

And continuous monitoring is a closed loop biofeedback that can help us with that decision-making and essentially predict failure of the system, rather than wait for failure of the system before we do something about it.

连续监测是一种闭环生物反馈，可以帮助我们做出决策，并从本质上预测系统的故障，而不是等待系统故障后再采取行动。

So, yeah, I think lot's coming down the pipeline.

所以，是的，我认为很多事情正在酝酿之中。

Andrew Huberman: Love it.

安德鲁·休伯曼：喜欢。

Casey Means: Yeah.

凯西的意思是：是啊。

Andrew Huberman: Let's talk a little bit about mindset.

Andrew Huberman：我们来谈谈心态。

This is a really interesting topic that you include in your book.

这是您书中包含的一个非常有趣的主题。

We've had guests come on and talk about growth mindset.

我们邀请了一些嘉宾来谈论成长心态。

Stress can be an enhancing mindset.

压力可以增强心态。

I'm big on mindset because I'm interested in how our cognitive reframing or cognitive framing can just change the way our biology works, and vice versa, of course.

我对心态很感兴趣，因为我对我们的认知重构或认知框架如何改变我们的生物学运作方式感兴趣，当然反之亦然。

But you talk about mindset in a certain context.

但你在特定的背景下谈论心态。

And one of the favorite passages around that that I really enjoyed was the relationship between kind of like trying to control everything and nature, you know, and how getting into nature itself can be valuable for us.

我真正喜欢的最喜欢的段落之一是试图控制一切与自然之间的关系，你知道，以及如何进入自然本身对我们来说是有价值的。

So maybe touch a little bit on mindset, if you will.

如果你愿意的话，也许可以稍微谈谈心态。

And what are your thoughts on nature — literally getting out-of-doors?

您对自然（真正的户外活动）有何看法？

Casey Means: Yeah.

凯西的意思是：是啊。

So I think that mindset, and more broadly than mindset, I think, psychology and our relationship specifically with fear and control, I think they're probably the most under-recognized thing that is impacting the metabolic health crisis, the chronic disease epidemic.

因此，我认为心态，以及更广泛的心态，我认为，心理学以及我们与恐惧和控制的关系，我认为它们可能是影响代谢健康危机和慢性病流行的最未被充分认识的事物。

There has been data that's looked into this.

有数据对此进行了研究。

We know that there's studies showing that loneliness impacts mitochondrial function and that loneliness is a risk factor and stress is a risk factor in these things.

我们知道，有研究表明孤独会影响线粒体功能，孤独是一个危险因素，压力是这些事情的一个危险因素。

And something really fascinating, actually, with the CGM data, is that many people who wear a CGM, I don't know if you saw this, but when you feel stressed, it actually has a diabetogenic effect.

实际上，根据 CGM 数据，真正令人着迷的是，许多佩戴 CGM 的人，我不知道你是否看到了这一点，但当你感到压力时，它实际上具有诱发糖尿病的作用。

It literally causes our blood sugar to go up when we feel stress.

当我们感到压力时，它确实会导致我们的血糖升高。

And that can be a fascinating unlock for people to realize.

这对于人们来说可能是一个令人着迷的解锁。

I kind of feel like I'm okay right now, but my body is telling me something different.

我感觉我现在很好，但我的身体告诉我一些不同的事情。

It's telling me that biochemically, I'm actually releasing energy stores from my liver glucose to fight some threat that I wasn't really aware of.

它告诉我，从生化角度来看，我实际上正在从肝脏葡萄糖中释放能量储存，以对抗一些我没有真正意识到的威胁。

So we definitely understand there's this link here, but it's certainly not made its way into clinical practice.

所以我们肯定知道这里存在这种联系，但它肯定还没有进入临床实践。

So the way I think about it is that what we know about the cells, and especially the mitochondria, is that the mitochondria are more than the powerhouses of the cell.

所以我的想法是，我们对细胞，尤其是线粒体的了解是，线粒体不仅仅是细胞的动力室。

They actually are a part of the cell that is constantly tracking resources and threats and are basically modulating energy resources based on that.

它们实际上是细胞的一部分，不断跟踪资源和威胁，并在此基础上调节能源。

And the threats can be anything.

威胁可以是任何东西。

They can be a virus, they can be, and this is all coordinated through this thing called the cell danger response, it can be a virus, it can be a toxin in the environment.

它们可以是病毒，它们可以是，这一切都是通过细胞危险反应来协调的，它可以是病毒，也可以是环境中的毒素。

It can be a lack of micronutrients for the electron transport chain that it needs to do its function.

可能是电子传递链缺乏发挥其功能所需的微量营养素。

It can also be psychological threats, because, of course, our psychological milieu translates through nerves and hormones and neurotransmitters and our microbiome to affect our cellular biology throughout our whole body.

它也可能是心理威胁，因为当然，我们的心理环境会通过神经、激素、神经递质和微生物群来影响我们整个身体的细胞生物学。

Our cells hear every single thought that we're thinking through biochemistry.

我们的细胞通过生物化学听到我们思考的每一个想法。

And when a cell and a mitochondria are getting the message that there is a threat or something to be afraid of, they are going to change metabolic function towards defense alarm, threat response, and away from repair, homeostasis building, essentially thriving.

当细胞和线粒体收到存在威胁或害怕的东西的信息时，它们会将代谢功能改变为防御警报、威胁响应，而不是修复、建立稳态，本质上是蓬勃发展。

And I think what's really maybe the most unnatural thing about our modern world.

我认为现代世界中最不自然的事情可能是什么。

The food, of course, is unnatural, 70% is ultra-processed.

当然，这些食物是非天然的，70%是经过超加工的。

But we also have this device in our hands, literally with us all the time.

但我们手中也有这个设备，几乎一直伴随着我们。

Streaming fear-inducing media into our brains and eyeballs every waking moment of the day, if we let it.

如果我们愿意的话，每天醒着的每一刻都会将引起恐惧的媒体传输到我们的大脑和眼球中。

So we're glued to our screens and our devices, and right now, essentially, the traumas and fears of 8 billion people all over an entire globe are now ours to process.

因此，我们全神贯注于屏幕和设备，而现在，从本质上讲，全球 80 亿人的创伤和恐惧现在都需要我们来处理。

And our cells and our mitochondria, there is no escaping it.

我们的细胞和线粒体也无法逃脱它。

They are going to respond to that.

他们将对此做出回应。

And so I think a big part of the metabolic health conversation is how do we create a sense of safety in our bodies, no matter what is happening outside of our bodies?

因此，我认为代谢健康对话的一个重要部分是，无论我们身体之外发生什么，我们如何在我们的身体中创造一种安全感？

And this can come down to, every person's journey will be different for this, because the things that cause a sense of threat or fear for any two people are going to be different.

这可以归结为，每个人的旅程都会有所不同，因为对任何两个人造成威胁或恐惧感的事情都会有所不同。

And I think some of the main categories is one, unresolved childhood trauma, like, something that I think is getting a lot more talked about these days, but, like, what's embedded in our nervous system, these limiting beliefs and memories that are really wired, that create a sense of hypervigilance in us, sort of all the time.

我认为其中一些主要类别是一个，未解决的童年创伤，就像我认为现在人们谈论得更多的事情一样，但是，就像我们神经系统中嵌入的东西一样，这些限制性的信念和记忆确实是连在一起的，它们在我们身上产生了一种高度警惕的感觉，几乎一直如此。

What's coming in through our devices, our phones, our computers, the media that we're exposed to, that's constantly giving a fear signal.

通过我们的设备、手机、电脑、我们接触到的媒体传入的东西，不断发出恐惧信号。

And I think on a broader level, a big Western one that we don't talk about is literally like, existential fear of mortality.

我认为在更广泛的层面上，我们不谈论的一个大的西方恐惧实际上就像是对死亡的存在主义恐惧。

We have a very despiritualized, very uniquely death-fearing culture.

我们有一种非常失灵、非常独特的惧怕死亡的文化。

Like you look at other cultures, Eastern, indigenous, the stoics, they all had intense curiosity about death.

就像你看看其他文化一样，东方文化、土著文化、斯多葛学派，他们都对死亡抱有强烈的好奇心。

We talk about the cycles of life.

我们谈论生命的循环。

There's this real engagement with it that we are so afraid of in the Western system, to the extent that our entire healthcare system actually, I think, you know, we've built it around, like, we're not gonna help you thrive.

在西方系统中，我们非常害怕这种真正的参与，以至于我们整个医疗保健系统实际上，我认为，你知道，我们是围绕它建立的，就像我们不会帮助你蓬勃发展。

We're just gonna do whatever we can to make sure you don't die.

我们会尽一切努力确保你不会死。

Like, that's built in everywhere.

就像，它无处不在。

And so we've got the devices, we've got the childhood trauma, we've got the fear of mortality.

所以我们有这些设备，我们有童年创伤，我们有对死亡的恐惧。

We have a very poor system of mental health care in the culture.

我们的文化中心理保健系统非常差。

And I think that through all these things, Americans are getting crushed, mindset- and psychology-wise.

我认为，通过所有这些事情，美国人在心态和心理上都被压垮了。

And that is a big, big trigger of our mitochondria, essentially diverting resources towards defense, threat, and alarm, rather than homeostasis, building repair.

这是我们线粒体的一个非常非常大的触发因素，本质上是将资源转移到防御、威胁和警报上，而不是稳态和建筑修复上。

So, again, it comes back to taking really honest stock of what are the true fear triggers in our lives, across those and others, and creating a sense of safety in our minds and bodies, no matter what the external world looks like, which may mean putting boundaries up to the media, doing the therapy, doing the different modalities.

所以，再次回到真正诚实地评估我们生活中真正的恐惧触发因素是什么，无论外部世界是什么样子，并在我们的思想和身体中创造一种安全感，这可能意味着给媒体划定界限，进行治疗，采取不同的方式。

What I believe and I talk about in the book, getting back to the question about nature, is one of the best things that we can do is actually literally just go outside.

我相信并在书中谈到，回到关于自然的问题，我们能做的最好的事情之一实际上就是走出去。

And it sounds so simple, but one of the most astonishing stats I literally found in researching this entire book was that the average American is spending 93.7% of their time indoors.

这听起来很简单，但我在研究整本书时发现的最令人惊讶的统计数据之一是，美国人平均 93.7% 的时间都在室内度过。

Andrew Huberman: Wild.

安德鲁·休伯曼：狂野。

Casey Means: Ninety-three point seven.

凯西的意思是：九十三点七。

That's in a car or in a building.

那是在汽车里或在建筑物里。

So we are locked in these cages, staring at fear-inducing media.

所以我们被锁在这些笼子里，盯着引起恐惧的媒体。

And our mitochondria are like, what?

我们的线粒体就像什么？

Like, I don't know where to channel my energy.

就像，我不知道该把精力输送到哪里。

It's just.

只是。

It's short circuiting.

是短路了。

I think so many things happen when we go outside, as you know.

正如你所知，我认为当我们外出时会发生很多事情。

I mean, even what the vision system is doing to our anxiety levels.

我的意思是，甚至视觉系统对我们的焦虑水平也有影响。

We are getting sunlight, which, of course, for, you know, complex reasons, is very helpful for our metabolic health.

我们正在接受阳光，当然，出于复杂的原因，这对我们的新陈代谢健康非常有帮助。

Separately, in trains, our chronobiology and light from the sun is an incredible regulator of our mitochondrial function.

另外，在火车上，我们的时间生物学和太阳光对我们的线粒体功能有着令人难以置信的调节作用。

But also, it's our best teacher.

但同时，它也是我们最好的老师。

When we're out in nature and we really look at how beautiful the world is and the cycles of nature, we see the cycles of the seasons, and we see the awe of the sun and the trees and just this.

当我们在大自然中时，我们真正看到世界是多么美丽和自然的循环，我们看到季节的循环，我们看到太阳和树木的敬畏等等。

All this alchemy that's happening outside of us.

所有这些炼金术都发生在我们之外。

We see spring to summer to fall to winter.

我们看到春天到夏天，秋天到冬天。

We see the tides moving in and out.

我们看到潮汐进进出出。

Everything's in phases.

一切都是分阶段的。

And I think when we reflect and meditate on all the cycles and the polarities in nature, night and day, cold and hot, new moon, quarter moon, full moon, all these things, it's actually...

我认为，当我们反思和冥想自然界中的所有周期和极性、黑夜和白天、冷和热、新月、上弦月、满月，所有这些事情时，实际上......

It entrenches on a subconscious and conscious level that there is a fundamental harmony and pattern to the world we're living in that is bigger than us, and that is fundamentally good and beautiful.

它在潜意识和意识层面上巩固了这一点：我们生活的世界存在着一种基本的和谐和模式，它比我们更大，而且本质上是善和美的。

And we are locked inside of the four walls of our house, I think we get very scared, we get very controllable.

我们被锁在房子的四堵墙内，我想我们变得非常害怕，我们变得非常可控。

And the system wants it that way, because when we are scared and when we are existentially afraid, we will literally do anything, we will buy anything, do anything, watch anything that will in some way ameliorate that pain that we're feeling.

系统希望如此，因为当我们感到害怕和存在性恐惧时，我们实际上会做任何事情，我们会买任何东西，做任何事情，观看任何能够以某种方式减轻我们所感受到的痛苦的东西。

And we will take any pill, we'll get any surgery, anything that makes us feel like we're controlling this seemingly out-of-control situation.

我们会服用任何药物，我们会接受任何手术，任何让我们感觉我们正在控制这种看似失控的情况的事情。

And that's what drives us into all the dopamine loops, you know, the social media, the processed food, the porn, the gambling, the alcohol, all of it.

这就是驱使我们进入所有多巴胺循环的原因，你知道，社交媒体、加工食品、色情、赌博、酒精，所有这些。

It's all to ameliorate, I think ultimately, fear.

我认为最终这一切都是为了减轻恐惧。

And I think, yeah, I think by actually really just spending a lot more time trying to get that 93.7% down to, like, 50%, spend as much time as you can outside.

我认为，是的，我认为实际上只是花更多的时间试图将 93.7% 降低到 50%，花尽可能多的时间在户外。

We know that people who spend more time outside are metabolically healthier.

我们知道，花更多时间在户外的人新陈代谢更健康。

And I think it's from pleiotropic reasons.

我认为这是出于多效性原因。

But I think one of it is that it is the ultimate convincing of abundance and fundamental abundance in our world, and of awe, which I think is really the antidote to fear.

但我认为其中之一是，它最终令人信服地证明了我们这个世界的丰富性和根本性的丰富性，以及敬畏感，我认为这确实是恐惧的解药。

And that has a profoundly soothing effect on our psychology and the sense of scarcity that drives a lot of the decisions that actually make us unhealthy.

这对我们的心理和稀缺感产生了深刻的舒缓作用，而稀缺感驱使我们做出许多实际上使我们不健康的决定。

It's fundamentally rooted in scarcity.

它从根本上植根于稀缺性。

And I think also when we realize we are part of nature, again, going back to that Taoist statement, we're a process, not an entity, realizing, like, you know, all the trees around us, and we take that walk, even in a city, we see all the trees, all those plants, all those leaves are making the oxygen, that process that literally let us do oxy-phosphorylation, and that sun and that leaf on the tree.

我想，当我们意识到我们是自然的一部分时，再次回到道家的说法，我们是一个过程，而不是一个实体，意识到，就像，你知道，我们周围的所有树木，我们散步，即使在城市里，我们看到所有的树木，所有的植物，所有的叶子都在制造氧气，这个过程实际上让我们进行氧磷酸化，还有太阳和树上的叶子。

The sun's energy is literally being stored in the carbon-carbon bonds that the plants are generating in photosynthesis.

太阳能确实储存在植物光合作用产生的碳-碳键中。

That ultimately all metabolism is, is unlocking the potential energy stored from the sun to create the human energy that lets us love and move and live and think, do all the things we love to do.

最终，所有的新陈代谢都是释放太阳储存的潜在能量，创造人类能量，让我们爱、移动、生活和思考，做所有我们喜欢做的事情。

And then it just becomes so obvious.

然后它就变得如此明显。

Like, of course we have to, like, eat real food, and of course, we have to not poison our soil with pesticides.

就像，我们当然必须，比如，吃真正的食物，当然，我们必须不要用杀虫剂毒害我们的土壤。

And of course, we have to, like, you know, care about the environment, and we have to get outside and move, and we have to be in the sunlight during the day, because we are the environment.

当然，我们必须，比如，你知道，关心环境，我们必须到外面去活动，我们必须在白天沐浴在阳光下，因为我们就是环境。

We are a process that's constantly in dynamic conversation with it.

我们是一个不断与之动态对话的过程。

And I think a lot of people will find that their health gets a lot better if they spend radically more time outdoors.

我认为很多人会发现，如果他们花更多的时间在户外，他们的健康会变得更好。

And I think a lot of people might say, well, I can't.

我想很多人可能会说，好吧，我不能。

I work on a computer.

我在电脑上工作。

And I'm like, you know, Rome is burning.

我想，你知道，罗马正在燃烧。

Like, we're sick as hell right now.

就像，我们现在病得很厉害。

We need to get creative.

我们需要发挥创意。

Like, move your computer outside, take a walking meeting, open your mail outdoors, chop your vegetables on your balcony at your apartment.

比如，把你的电脑移到外面，参加一个步行会议，在户外打开你的邮件，在你公寓的阳台上切蔬菜。

Like, we have to find a way to connect back with our source, understand that the world is abundant and harmonious, re-entrench the belief in our connection with nature, and then let all of our dietary and lifestyle strategies stem from that sense of gratitude and awe.

比如，我们必须找到一种方法来与我们的源头联系起来，了解世界是丰富而和谐的，重新坚定我们与自然联系的信念，然后让我们所有的饮食和生活方式策略都源于这种感激和敬畏之情。

And that will lead us right where we need to go, which is a really, I think, joyful experience of our health journey that's rooted fundamentally in connection, rather than us being siloed from all of this, which, going back to the end of the conversation, that's fundamentally what's wrong with the healthcare system.

这将引导我们到达我们需要去的地方，我认为，这是我们健康之旅的一次真正的快乐体验，它从根本上植根于联系，而不是我们被所有这些孤立起来，回到谈话的结尾，这从根本上就是医疗保健系统的问题。

It silos, and we have siloed ourself from all of the life-giving things in our environment.

它是孤岛，我们将自己与环境中所有赋予生命的事物隔离开来。

And that has ultimately led us to be very, very, very sick.

这最终导致我们病得很重。

And we just.

而我们只是。

I think we gotta go back outside.

我想我们得回去外面了

So that's one of the things.

这就是其中之一。

But there's many other things we can do to change those.

但我们还可以做很多其他事情来改变这些。

Our relationship with fear, but we can't change the world as a whole, but we can change what happens inside our body in terms of how we respond to it.

我们与恐惧的关系，但我们无法改变整个世界，但我们可以改变我们身体内部发生的事情，即我们如何应对它。

And for our mitochondria's sake, we have to.

为了我们的线粒体，我们必须这样做。

We have to create a sense of safety in our bodies for our mitochondria to do the work we need them to do for health.

我们必须在体内创造一种安全感，让线粒体完成我们需要它们为健康所做的工作。

Andrew Huberman: I love it, and I love it for many reasons.

Andrew Huberman：我喜欢它，我喜欢它的原因有很多。

I think.

我认为。

I know.

我知道。

It was my friend and former guest on this podcast, Rick Rubin, who, several times, early in our friendship, he said, back to nature, the only truth.

这是我的朋友，也是这个播客的前嘉宾，里克·鲁宾（Rick Rubin），在我们友谊的早期，他多次说过，回归自然，这是唯一的真理。

And I asked him what he meant by that, because Rick can be a little bit cryptic sometimes.

我问他这是什么意思，因为里克有时会有点神秘。

Not always, but sometimes.

并非总是如此，但有时如此。

And what he was saying is, it's a real thing.

他所说的是，这是真实的事情。

You can immediately feel the connectedness between the human experience and life of other types, plants, animals, sunlight, the circadian rhythms, and the rhythms of light and dark, because they impact us so powerfully.

你可以立即感受到人类经验与其他类型的生命、植物、动物、阳光、昼夜节律、光明与黑暗的节律之间的联系，因为它们对我们的影响是如此强大。

I mean, if there were ever a force in the world that impacts how we feel, it's the circadian rhythm.

我的意思是，如果世界上有一种力量影响我们的感受，那就是昼夜节律。

It's the rising and setting of the sun.

这是太阳的升起和落下。

It's on the impact of light and dark.

这是光与暗的影响。

And then all the other things that you talked about today, I can't help but reflect on kind of your take on kind of what a lot of, not all, but a lot of modern society attempts to do.

然后，你今天谈到的所有其他事情，我忍不住反思你对很多（不是全部）但很多现代社会试图做的事情的看法。

It attempts to do a lot of good things, too.

它也尝试做很多好事。

I believe.

我相信。

I'm a believer in technology, but that it, if I were to translate, it sounded like what you were saying is that it gives us a sense of loss of control by instilling fear like we don't have control.

我是技术的信徒，但如果我翻译的话，听起来就像你所说的是，它通过灌输恐惧感，让我们有一种失去控制的感觉，就像我们无法控制一样。

And then there are a number of, let's just call them programs in the world that then sell back the illusion of some sense of agency, little by little, temporary agency, and then puts you back into the cycle.

然后，世界上有很多程序，让我们称之为程序，然后一点一点地卖回某种代理感的幻觉，临时代理，然后让你回到这个循环中。

And there's something about going into nature which just removes one from all of that, at least temporarily, gives you a more basic understanding of the relationship to self and things around us.

走进大自然会让你暂时摆脱这一切，至少暂时地让你对自我和周围事物的关系有一个更基本的了解。

Even just looking, being able to see it to a distance we know is powerful for the brain, reducing anxiety.

即使只是看，能够在我们知道的远处看到它对大脑来说也很强大，可以减少焦虑。

We know being outdoors for two hours or more per day reduces myopia, nearsightedness.

我们知道每天在户外活动两个小时或更长时间可以减少近视。

This is independent of all the other effects of circadian rhythms, etc. Anyway, and on and on.

这与昼夜节律等的所有其他影响无关。无论如何，等等。

So I second and third, and “hear, hear” all the statements you made before.

所以我第二次、第三次，“听到，听到”你之前发表的所有言论。

I also just have to say I really appreciate how you are able to tackle the cellular biology, the molecular biology, the macroscopic things that we can all do.

我还想说，我真的很欣赏你们能够解决细胞生物学、分子生物学以及我们都能做的宏观问题。

Walking, resistance training, cold exposure, sleep, high-intensity interval training, and make a case for each and all of those as it relates to the underlying biochemistry.

步行、阻力训练、寒冷暴露、睡眠、高强度间歇训练，并为所有这些都提供理由，因为它们与潜在的生物化学有关。

And weave all that together in a way that then you beautifully wrapped into this idea of connecting to nature and not divorcing ourselves from modern life, but really looking at the ways in which certain components of modern life are really making us sick.

把所有这些编织在一起，然后你就完美地融入了这种与自然联系的想法，而不是让我们脱离现代生活，而是真正审视现代生活的某些组成部分真正让我们生病的方式。

Not just the behaviors, not just the dos and the don'ts, that it's kind of imparting on us, but also kind of the psychology around it.

它传递给我们的不仅仅是行为、该做和不该做的事，还有围绕它的心理学。

That it is quietly but powerfully oppressive is the message that I'm getting and that we have to take a stand against it.

我得到的信息是，它是无声无息但具有强大的压迫性，我们必须采取立场反对它。

And the way to take a stand against it is to do what are very basic and fairly easy-to-access things, making better choices about food, timing, quality, amount, exercise, and on and on.

反对它的方法是做一些非常基本且相当容易做到的事情，在食物、时间、质量、数量、锻炼等方面做出更好的选择。

So I'm running long in my response to your much more eloquent description of mindset.

因此，我对您对心态的更雄辩的描述进行了长篇大论的回应。

But what I want to say is, on behalf of myself and everyone listening, I so appreciate, we appreciate the work that you're doing to be a medical doctor specialized in one of these silos, and then to take a step out and say, nope, not me, I'm going to do what I see as best for the greater good in terms of giving people tools, giving people a sense of agency and autonomy to take control of their health.

但我想说的是，代表我自己和每个听众，我非常欣赏，我们欣赏你作为一名专门从事这些孤岛之一的医生所做的工作，然后走出一步说，不，不是我，我将做我认为最有利于更大利益的事情，为人们提供工具，让人们有一种代理感和自主权来控制自己的健康。

This is in some ways a heretical idea, but luckily, the numbers of folks like you are growing and you're a real leader in this field by example and by the incredible work you're doing with technology and information sharing.

从某些方面来说，这是一个异端的想法，但幸运的是，像您这样的人的数量正在增长，并且通过您的榜样以及您在技术和信息共享方面所做的令人难以置信的工作，您是该领域真正的领导者。

Love, love the book.

爱书，爱书。

I did go through it front to back.

我确实从前到后经历了它。

I haven't tried the recipes yet, but thank you for bringing the blueberries.

我还没试过食谱，但谢谢你带来蓝莓。

I'll try the recipes, at least one of them.

我会尝试一下食谱，至少其中之一。

And I just want to thank you for sharing what you do, for continuing to do what you do.

我只想感谢您分享您所做的事情，感谢您继续做您所做的事情。

We need it and we appreciate it.

我们需要它并且我们很感激。

So thank you.

所以谢谢你。

Casey Means: Thank you.

凯西的意思是：谢谢。

Andrew Huberman: Thank you for joining me for today's discussion about metabolic function with Dr. Casey Means.

Andrew Huberman：感谢您今天与我一起与 Casey Means 博士讨论代谢功能。

If you're learning from and or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel.

如果您正在学习或喜欢此播客，请订阅我们的 YouTube 频道。

That's a terrific zero-cost way to support us.

这是支持我们的绝佳零成本方式。

In addition, please subscribe to the podcast on both Spotify and Apple.

此外，请在 Spotify 和 Apple 上订阅该播客。

And on both Spotify and Apple, you can leave us up to a five-star review.

在 Spotify 和 Apple 上，您都可以给我们五星级的评价。

Please check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode.

请查看今天节目开头和整个节目中提到的赞助商。

That's the best way to support this podcast.

这是支持这个播客的最佳方式。

If you have questions for me or comments about the podcast, or topics or guests that you'd like me to consider for the Huberman Lab podcast, please put those in the comment section on YouTube.

如果您对我有疑问或对播客有意见，或者您希望我在 Huberman Lab 播客中考虑的主题或嘉宾，请将这些内容放在 YouTube 的评论部分。

I do read all the comments.

我确实阅读了所有评论。

If you're not already following me, on social media I am Huberman Lab on all social media platforms.

如果您还没有关注我，请在社交媒体上关注我，我是所有社交媒体平台上的 Huberman Lab。

So that's Instagram, Facebook, X, Threads, and LinkedIn.

这就是 Instagram、Facebook、X、Threads 和 LinkedIn。

And on all those platforms I discuss science and science-related tools, some of which overlaps with the content of the Huberman Lab podcast, but much of which is distinct from the content on the Huberman Lab podcast.

在所有这些平台上，我讨论科学和与科学相关的工具，其中一些与胡伯曼实验室播客的内容重叠，但其中大部分与胡伯曼实验室播客的内容不同。

Again, that's Huberman Lab on all social media channels.

同样，这是所有社交媒体渠道上的 Huberman Lab。

If you haven't already subscribed to our Neural Network newsletter, our Neural Network newsletter is a zero-cost monthly newsletter that includes podcast summaries as well as protocols in the form of brief one-to-three-page PDFs that cover everything from learning and neuroplasticity or how to improve your sleep, optimizing dopamine, deliberate cold exposure, deliberate heat exposure.

如果您还没有订阅我们的神经网络时事通讯，我们的神经网络时事通讯是一份零成本的月度时事通讯，其中包括播客摘要以及简短的一到三页 PDF 形式的协议，涵盖学习和神经可塑性或如何改善睡眠、优化多巴胺、有意冷暴露、有意热暴露等各个方面。

There's a foundational fitness protocol, all available, completely zero cost.

有一个基本的健身方案，全部可用，完全零成本。

You simply go to hubermanlab.com, go to the menu tab, scroll down to newsletter, and enter your email.

您只需访问 hubermanlab.com，转到菜单选项卡，向下滚动到新闻通讯，然后输入您的电子邮件。

And I should mention that we do not share your email with anybody.

我应该指出的是，我们不会与任何人分享您的电子邮件。

Thank you for joining me for today's discussion about metabolic health with Dr. Casey Means.

感谢您今天与凯西·米恩斯博士一起参加有关代谢健康的讨论。

And last, but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.

最后但同样重要的是，感谢您对科学的兴趣。