Dr. Cal Newport: How to Enhance Focus and Improve Productivity

Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast where we discuss science and science based tools for everyday life.

欢迎来到休伯曼实验室播客，我们在这里讨论科学和基于科学的日常生活工具。

I'm Andrew Huberman and I'm a professor of Neurobiology and Ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.

我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。

My guest today is Doctor Cal Newport.

今天我的客人是卡尔·纽波特医生。

Doctor Cal Newport is a professor of Computer Science at Georgetown University.

卡尔·纽波特博士是乔治城大学计算机科学教授。

He did his training at MIT and he is currently both a professor and the author of many best selling books focused on productivity focus and how to access the specific states of mind to bring out your best in terms of cognitive performance and indeed, in terms of performance in all endeavors.

他在麻省理工学院接受了培训，目前是一名教授，也是许多畅销书的作者，这些书专注于生产力，以及如何进入特定的心态，以在认知表现方面发挥出最佳水平，实际上，在所有努力的表现方面。

One of his more notable books is entitled "Deep Work: Rules for Focused Success in a Distracted World."

他最著名的一本书是《深度工作：在分心的世界中取得成功的规则》。

Deep Work is a book that has had tremendous positive influence on my work life and indeed my life in general because it spells out how exactly to go about doing one's best possible work for me that's in the context of science and podcasting, but it includes tools that I and many others have extended to other aspects of their life as well.

《深度工作》这本书对我的工作生活乃至我的生活产生了巨大的积极影响，因为它详细说明了如何在科学和播客的背景下为我尽最大可能的工作，但它也包括我和其他许多人已经扩展到他们生活的其他方面的工具。

And it's a book that I highly recommend everybody read.

这是一本我强烈推荐大家阅读的书。

Cal also has a new book out.

卡尔还出版了一本新书。

Now, it's one that I'm currently reading entitled "Slow Productivity: The Lost Art of Accomplishment Without Burnout." And as the title suggests, it gets into specific protocols to avoid burnout and to bring about one's highest quality work over the greatest amount of time.

现在，我正在读的一本题为《生产力低下：不倦怠地取得成就的失落艺术》。正如标题所暗示的那样，它进入了特定的协议，以避免倦怠并在最长的时间内完成最高质量的工作。

Today's discussion starts off with extremely practical steps that any and all of us can use in order to enhance our level of focus, productivity and creativity.

今天的讨论从非常实用的步骤开始，我们所有人都可以使用这些步骤来提高我们的注意力、生产力和创造力水平。

Cal shares much of his specific practices and also offers some alternative practices for those of you that perhaps do not want to disengage with Social Media or with smartphones or with email.

卡尔分享了他的许多具体做法，并为那些可能不想脱离社交媒体、智能手机或电子邮件的人提供了一些替代做法。

To the extent that he does.

在他做到的范围内。

I found the conversation to be extremely useful in the sense that I indeed am on Social Media.

我发现这次对话非常有用，因为我确实在社交媒体上。

I use email, I use my phone and texting quite often.

我经常使用电子邮件、电话和短信。

So I'm not somebody who's willing to completely disengage from those tools, but I share in the sentiment that those tools can often be an impediment to doing one's best work.

因此，我并不是愿意完全脱离这些工具的人，但我也同意这样的观点：这些工具往往会成为人们发挥最佳工作成果的障碍。

So today's discussion gets into not hard and fast rules for enhancing focus and productivity, but a variety of different tools that you can select from in sort of a buffet to suit your particular needs.

因此，今天的讨论不是关于提高注意力和生产力的硬性规则，而是各种不同的工具，您可以从自助餐中选择，以满足您的特定需求。

We also of course discuss the specific research studies around focus and distraction, Task Switching and context switching, all of which support the specific protocols that Cal offers.

当然，我们还讨论了围绕注意力和分心、任务切换和上下文切换的具体研究，所有这些都支持 Cal 提供的特定协议。

So whether you're somebody who has issues with attention and focus or whether you're somebody that's just feeling overly distracted by the number of things in your email inbox or the number of texts or what's happening out in the world.

因此，无论您是注意力和注意力有问题的人，还是只是因电子邮件收件箱中的事物数量、短信数量或世界上发生的事情而感到过度分心的人。

By the end of today's episode, I'm confident that you will be armed with the best science supported tools that is protocols in order to access the states of mind that will enable you to do your best possible work.

在今天的节目结束时，我相信您将掌握最好的科学支持工具，即协议，以便进入使您能够尽最大可能工作的心态。

Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.

在开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。

It is however part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science related tools to the general public.

然而，我的愿望和努力的一部分是向公众提供有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本消费者信息。

In keeping with that theme.

符合这个主题。

I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast.

我要感谢今天播客的赞助商。

Our first sponsor is Helix Sleep.

我们的第一个赞助商是 Helix Sleep。

Helix Sleep makes mattresses and pillows that are of the absolute highest quality I've spoken many times before on this podcast about the fact that quality sleep is the foundation of mental health, physical health and performance and to get the best possible night sleep.

Helix Sleep 生产的床垫和枕头绝对是最高品质的，我之前在这个播客中曾多次谈到过这样一个事实：优质睡眠是心理健康、身体健康和表现的基础，也是获得最佳夜间睡眠的基础。

It's absolutely key that your sleeping surface that is your mattress suit your specific needs.

您的睡眠表面（即床垫）必须满足您的特定需求，这绝对是关键。

Helix understands this and they develop a brief two minute quiz in which you can match your body type and sleep preferences.

Helix 明白这一点，他们开发了一个简短的两分钟测验，您可以在其中匹配您的体型和睡眠偏好。

That is whether or not you sleep on your back, your side or your stomach, whether or not you tend to run hot or cold in the middle of the night.

也就是说，无论你是仰睡、侧睡还是俯睡，无论你半夜是否容易感到热或冷。

Perhaps you don't know the answers to those questions.

也许您不知道这些问题的答案。

That's ok.

没关系。

You answer the questions in that brief two minute quiz and they match you to the specific mattress ideal for your sleep needs.

您在两分钟的简短测验中回答问题，它们就会为您匹配适合您睡眠需求的特定床垫。

In my, that was the dusk D US K mattress.

在我看来，那是黄昏 D US K 床垫。

I started sleeping on a dusk mattress well, over three years ago and it has significantly improved my sleep.

三年前，我开始在黄昏床垫上睡得很好，它显着改善了我的睡眠。

And as a consequence, I feel more focused and alert, I'm better able to do all the things that I need to cognitively physically throughout the day.

因此，我感觉更加专注和警觉，我能够更好地完成一天中认知身体所需的所有事情。

So, if you're interested in upgrading your mattress, simply go to Helix Sleep.

因此，如果您有兴趣升级您的床垫，只需前往 Helix Sleep 即可。

Com/Huberman, take that brief two minute quiz and they'll match you to a customized mattress ideal for you.

Com/Huberman，参加简短的两分钟测验，他们将为您匹配最适合您的定制床垫。

You'll get up to $350 off any mattress order and two free pillows.

订购任何床垫可享受高达 350 美元的优惠，并免费获赠两个枕头。

Again, go to Helix Sleep.Com/Huberman for up to $350 off and two free pillows.

再次访问 Helix Sleep.Com/Huberman，可享受高达 350 美元的折扣和两个免费枕头。

Today's episode is also brought to us by Maui Nui Venison.

今天的节目也是由 Maui Nui Venison 为我们带来的。

Maui Nui Venison is the most nutrient dense and delicious red meat available.

毛伊努伊鹿肉是营养最丰富、最美味的红肉。

I've spoken before on this podcast and there's general consensus that most people should strive to consume approximately 1 g of protein per pound of body weight.

我之前在这个播客上说过，人们普遍认为大多数人应该努力每磅体重摄入大约 1 克蛋白质。

Now, when one strives to do that, it's important to maximize the quality of that protein intake to the calorie ratio because you don't want to consume an excess of calories when trying to get that 1 g of protein per pound of body weight.

现在，当一个人努力做到这一点时，重要的是要最大限度地提高蛋白质摄入量与卡路里比率的质量，因为在尝试获得每磅体重 1 克蛋白质时，您不想消耗过量的卡路里。

Maui Nui Venison has an extremely high quality protein to calorie ratio.

毛伊努伊鹿肉具有极高品质的蛋白质与卡路里比率。

So it makes getting that 1 g of protein per pound of body weight extremely easy.

因此，每磅体重获取 1 克蛋白质变得极其容易。

It's also delicious.

也很好吃。

Personally, I like the ground venison.

就我个人而言，我喜欢碎鹿肉。

I also like the venison steaks and then for convenience.

我也喜欢鹿肉牛排，然后为了方便。

When I'm on the road, I like the jerky.

当我在路上时，我喜欢肉干。

The jerky is a very high protein to calorie ratio.

肉干的蛋白质与热量的比例非常高。

So it has as much as 10 g of protein per jerky stick and it has something like only like 55 calories.

因此，每根肉干棒中含有多达 10 克蛋白质，而热量大约只有 55 卡路里。

So again, making it very easy to get enough protein without consuming excess calories.

再次强调，在不消耗过多热量的情况下，很容易获得足够的蛋白质。

If you would like to try Maui Nui Venison, you can go to Maui Nui Venison.com/Huberman to get 20% off your first order.

如果您想尝试 Maui Nui Venison，您可以访问 Maui Nui Venison.com/Huberman 享受首单 20% 的折扣。

Again, that's mauinuivenison.com/huberman to get 20% off.

再次强调，mauinuivenison.com/huberman 可以获得 20% 的折扣。

Today's episode is also brought to us by JOOVV.

今天的节目也是JOOVV给我们带来的。

JOOVV makes medical grade red light therapy devices.

JOOVV 生产医疗级红光治疗设备。

Now, if there's one theme that I've consistently put forward on this podcast, it's the powerful role that light has on our mental health, physical health and performance.

现在，如果我在这个播客中一直提出一个主题，那就是光对我们的心理健康、身体健康和表现的强大作用。

JOOVV makes medical grade devices that emit both red and near infrared light, red and near infrared light is so called long wavelength light.

JOOVV制造可发射红光和近红外光的医疗级设备，红光和近红外光被称为长波长光。

And it's able to penetrate deeper into tissues than shorter wavelength light like blue and green lights.

而且它比蓝光和绿光等波长较短的光能够更深入地渗透到组织中。

Those red and near infrared long wavelength lights have been shown to be beneficial for everything from skin health to wound healing to eye health.

这些红色和近红外长波长光已被证明对从皮肤健康到伤口愈合再到眼睛健康的各个方面都有益。

And even for mitochondrial health.

甚至对于线粒体健康也是如此。

What sets JOOVV apart from other red light and near infrared light devices is that they are clinical proven to emit the specific wavelengths at the specific intensities required to achieve specific biological effects.

JOOVV 与其他红光和近红外光设备的区别在于，它们经过临床证明能够以实现特定生物效应所需的特定强度发射特定波长。

Personally, I use the JV handheld light both at home and when I travel, it's only about the size of a sandwich.

就我个人而言，我在家中和旅行时都使用 JV 手持灯，它只有三明治大小。

It's very convenient to use.

使用起来非常方便。

I also have a JV whole body panel and I use that about three or four times a week.

我还有一个 JV 全身面板，我每周大约使用三到四次。

If you would like to try JOOVV, you can go to JOOVV.com/Huberman.

如果您想尝试 JOOVV，可以访问 JOOVV.com/Huberman。

JOOVV is offering an exclusive discount to all Huberman Lab listeners with up to $400 off select JOOVV products.

JOOVV 为所有 Huberman Lab 听众提供独家折扣，精选 JOOVV 产品最高可享受 400 美元折扣。

Again, that's JOOVV.com/Huberman to get $400 off select JOOVV products.

同样，JOOVV.com/Huberman 还可享受精选 JOOVV 产品立减 400 美元的优惠。

And now for my discussion with Doctor Cal Newport, Doctor Cal Newport, welcome.

现在我与卡尔·纽波特医生进行讨论，欢迎卡尔·纽波特医生。

Doctor Huberman.

胡伯曼医生。

It’s good to see you.

很高兴见到你。

I'm a huge fan.

我是它的超级粉丝。

I've been a huge fan ever since I read deep work.

自从我阅读了深度作品以来，我一直是它的忠实粉丝。

I can't say that I've adopted all the principles, but that's on me.

我不能说我已经采纳了所有原则，但这取决于我。

Not you.

不是你。

You provide incredible incentive for why one ought to pursue deep work and slow productivity in service to high quality true productivity, et cetera.

你为为什么人们应该追求深度工作和缓慢的生产力以服务于高质量的真正生产力等等提供了令人难以置信的激励。

Some of the protocols as we'll call them are incredibly easy to implement others, take some discipline.

我们所说的一些协议非常容易实现，而另一些协议则需要遵守一些规则。

So I'd like to talk about both sets today.

所以今天我想谈谈这两个系列。

But the first question I have is do you own a smartphone?

但我的第一个问题是你有智能手机吗？

I do have a smartphone.

我有一部智能手机。

Yeah.

是的。

Well, here's the thing, I don't use Social Media.

嗯，事情是这样的，我不使用社交媒体。

So it turns out smartphones aren't that interesting if you don't have any Social Media apps on it.

因此，如果智能手机上没有任何社交媒体应用程序，那么它就没那么有趣了。

Yeah.

是的。

What's that like?

那是什么样子的？

So there's, there's nothing if you have nothing that is engineered to try to grab your attention.

所以，如果你没有任何旨在吸引你注意力的东西，那就什么都不是。

The smartphone actually goes back to 2007 Steve Jobs, keynote address smartphone, which is, this is a really nice phone and your music, you can listen to things on it and the phone interface is really good.

智能手机实际上可以追溯到 2007 年史蒂夫·乔布斯 (Steve Jobs)，他在智能手机主题演讲中表示，这是一款非常好的手机和音​​乐，你可以在上面听东西，而且手机界面非常好。

And look, there's a Maps app and you can like look at Maps on it like it's actually a useful piece of technology that you're happy to have.

看，有一个地图应用程序，您可以在上面查看地图，就像它实际上是您很高兴拥有的一项有用的技术一样。

But you don't use it that much.

但你用得不多。

What about text messaging?

那么短信呢？

Do you text message?

你发短信吗？

And if so do you get into conversations by text or is it more of a, a plan and meet type tool?

如果是这样，您是通过短信进行对话还是更多地是一种计划和会议类型的工具？

I try, right.

我试试，对吧。

So, so I try, I do use text messaging.

所以，所以我尝试，我确实使用短信。

I mean, this is how like my wife gets in touch with me.

我的意思是，这就是我妻子与我联系的方式。

But I'm notorious somewhat among my friends of my, the ability to capture my attention with text message is really hit or miss because I'll go hours without looking at my phone.

但我在我的朋友中有点臭名昭著，通过短信吸引我注意力的能力真的很碰运气，因为我会几个小时不看手机。

So it's not this default appendage.

所以它不是这个默认的附属物。

I think for a lot of people, if you know someone, you can basically assume like look, if I text them, they're gonna get right back to me.

我认为对于很多人来说，如果你认识某人，你基本上可以假设，如果我给他们发短信，他们会立即回复我。

My problem is I'll go 234 hours, you know, without looking at my phone and then there'll be text messages on there from conversations that people were trying to start and I typically just have to declare text bankruptcy a few times a day.

我的问题是，你知道，我会 234 小时不看手机，然后手机上就会出现人们试图开始的对话的短信，而我通常每天只需要宣布几次短信破产即可。

Like, like if they really needed me, I guess they would have called.

就像，如果他们真的需要我，我想他们会打电话的。

So I do text but, I'm not considered to be very good at it.

所以我会发短信，但人们认为我不太擅长发短信。

A few other questions about your phone practices.

关于您的电话习惯的其他一些问题。

This makes me nervous.

这让我很紧张。

Is your phone in a drawer on, on the desktop?

您的手机是在抽屉里还是在桌面上？

While you're working, is it face down, face up?

当你工作时，它是面朝下还是面朝上？

Is the ringer on, is it off?

铃声打开还是关闭？

You know, if I'm writing or it's nowhere near me?

你知道，如果我正在写作，或者它离我很远？

Yeah, I mean, it could be anywhere, it's just not gonna be anywhere near me.

是的，我的意思是，它可能在任何地方，只是不会在我附近。

So I have in my house.

所以我家就有。

Two different offices basically.

基本上是两个不同的办公室。

Right.

正确的。

So there's a home office, the printers there, the filing cabinets are there like the nice big monitors there, you know, pay taxes, that type of thing then have a library.

所以有一个家庭办公室，那里有打印机，文件柜就在那里，就像那里漂亮的大显示器一样，​​你知道，纳税，诸如此类的东西就有一个图书馆。

And there's no permanent technology in the library.

而且图书馆里没有永久的技术。

No computer in there, no monitor, no printers, nothing like this.

那里没有电脑，没有显示器，没有打印机，什么都没有。

I have this sort of custom built desk I had made by a company from Maine that makes desks for college libraries.

我有一张定制的桌子，是由缅因州的一家公司制造的，该公司为大学图书馆生产桌子。

Like that's what they do.

就像他们就是这么做的。

So I had this like custom fit desk to fit into, it's not that big of a space.

所以我有一张定制的办公桌可以放进去，它的空间并不大。

That's where I go to write.

这就是我要去写作的地方。

I'm surrounded by books that I've really carefully curated.

我周围都是我精心挑选的书籍。

What's where each shelf, like what type of book it has on it.

每个书架在哪里，比如上面放什么类型的书。

So I can look different ways for different inspirations.

所以我可以用不同的方式寻找不同的灵感。

I got a fireplace so I can just turn on a fire.

我有一个壁炉，所以我可以直接生火。

If I need it, I'll bring my laptop in there to write.

如果需要的话，我会把我的笔记本电脑带到那里去写。

If I'm gonna write on a computer and my phone doesn't come in there.

如果我要在电脑上写作而我的手机不在那里。

Yeah.

是的。

You don't, you don't look at, you don't look at a phone in that room and it just helps you.

你不，你不看，你不看那个房间里的电话，它只会对你有帮助。

It's a ritual, right?

这是一种仪式，对吧？

If I'm in there, I'm thinking I'm creating with the sort of same patterns of cogitation that we would have been using for hundreds of years when people have been thinking professionally if I want to be near a printer and I want to go on to a web browser and pay my taxes or whatever, I have a different place for that.

如果我在那里，我想我正在用我们数百年来一直使用的相同的思考模式进行创造，当时人们一直在专业地思考，如果我想靠近打印机，我想继续使用网络浏览器并缴纳税款或其他什么，我有一个不同的地方。

I'm curious about the fireplace.

我对壁炉很好奇。

I have this theory based on my understanding of visual neuroscience and the fact that when we're looking at visual scenes that have some degree of predictability to them, we get into a mode of anticipation.

我的这个理论基于我对视觉神经科学的理解，以及当我们看到具有一定程度可预测性的视觉场景时，我们会进入一种预期模式的事实。

Our thinking is at least somewhat linear and so forth.

我们的思维至少在某种程度上是线性的等等。

When we are looking at say ocean waves or oh in a skyscraper, we're staring down at the street of say New York City and the cars are moving in obviously not random fashion, but at least to our visual perception, pseudo random, you're not tracking any one thing that the, the mind goes into this sort of state where our thoughts become nonlinear.

当我们看着海浪或摩天大楼时，我们凝视着纽约市的街道，汽车显然不是以随机的方式移动，但至少对我们的视觉感知来说，伪随机的，你没有跟踪任何一件事，心灵进入这种状态，我们的思想变得非线性。

They're not anchored to any kind of if, then kind of what I call DPO duration, path outcome kind of trajectory.

它们不锚定于任何类型的“如果”、“那么”，即我所说的 DPO 持续时间、路径结果类型的轨迹。

There's not a lot of neuroscience on this, but there's a little bit same thing happens when you're looking at an aquarium, by the way.

关于这一点的神经科学并不多，但顺便说一句，当你看水族馆时，也会发生一些同样的事情。

So I wonder whether not staring at the fire, which is something that humans have been doing for many, many, many thousands of years.

所以我想知道是否不要盯着火看，这是人类几千年来一直在做的事情。

Because it has that random aspect to it.

因为它具有随机性。

Does it tend to spark creativity, linear thinking.

它是否倾向于激发创造力和线性思维？

At what point in your writing do you turn to the fire and stare at it?

在你的写作中，你什么时候会转向火并凝视它？

That's interesting actually that there's a neurological explanation when I use the fire.

实际上，有趣的是，当我使用火时，有一个神经学解释。

It actually when I read, right?

其实我读的时候也是这样，对吧？

So I have chairs by the fire.

所以我在火边有椅子。

But I think for exactly this reason, right?

但我想正是因为这个原因，对吗？

Because when I'm reading, I'm looking to spark ideas, right?

因为当我阅读时，我希望激发想法，对吧？

Like, OK, what am I, what's my takeaway from this?

就像，好吧，我是什么，我从中得到什么？

What's the connection you're making between this thing you're reading here and this idea over there?

你在这里读到的这件事和那边的想法之间有什么联系？

That type of connection making is a lot of my brainstorming.

这种类型的联系是我头脑风暴的主要内容。

I read by the fire when the weather allows it.

天气允许的时候，我会在火边读书。

I also walk a lot.

我也经常走路。

So I wonder if there's something similar going on?

所以我想知道是否有类似的事情发生？

Like when I'm trying to work through an idea for an article or a math proof or something like this.

就像当我试图研究一篇文章的想法或数学证明或类似的东西时。

Almost always, I'm going to do that on foot and there might be something similar going on there where you're encountering.

几乎总是，我会步行去那里，而你遇到的地方可能会发生类似的事情。

It's not entirely exotic stimuli, right?

这不完全是异国刺激，对吧？

So it's not, oh my God, you know, my attention is being drawn but it's you, you don't, you don't quite know what you're going to see.

所以，天哪，你知道，吸引我注意力的是你，你不，你不太知道你会看到什么。

And you also have that, that circuit quieting effect of the walking, your motor neurons are going.

而且你也有，步行的电路安静效应，你的运动神经元正在运转。

You can tell me if I'm getting this right or not, you are the motor neurons are going and you get some inhibition going on in some of these, these key networks which allows you to actually maintain the, the, the internal focus on a concept a little bit better.

你可以告诉我我是否理解正确，你的运动神经元正在运转，并且在其中一些关键网络中发生了一些抑制，这些网络使你能够更好地保持对一个概念的内部关注。

So I do a lot of my original focused dating on foot, but a lot of my serendipitous dating will be with the fire going, right?

所以我最初的很多约会都是徒步进行的，但我的很多偶然的约会都是在火上进行的，对吧？

It's the winner I read by the fire.

这是我在火边读到的胜利者。

And so when I read that I get a lot of my original ideas.

因此，当我读到这些内容时，我得到了很多原创想法。

I have this theory that the two opposite states of mind that both facilitate creativity and productivity look something like this.

我有这样的理论：促进创造力和生产力的两种相反的心态看起来就像这样。

And you can tell me whether or not this maps anything that that, you know, one is just as you described, our body is in motion, could be running, walking might even be in the shower or something of that sort.

你可以告诉我这是否映射了任何东西，你知道，就像你所描述的那样，我们的身体在运动，可能在跑步，可能在散步，甚至可能在淋浴或类似的事情。

But we aren't trying to direct our mind toward a specific linear trajectory or outcome.

但我们并不是试图将我们的思想引导到特定的线性轨迹或结果。

It's not, it's not like working out an equation or a theorem.

不是，这不像算出方程式或定理。

The same way we would if we were at a piece of paper or writing out a sentence, a structured paragraph.

就像我们在一张纸上或写下一个句子、一个结构化段落时一样。

So it's body in motion, mind not channel toward one specific target.

所以它是身体在运动，思想而不是指向一个特定目标。

The opposite extreme to me is body still mind very active which resembles rapid eye movement sleep when we learn a lot and neural rewiring occurs and dreaming.

对我来说相反的极端是身体仍然非常活跃，这类似于快速眼动睡眠，当我们学到很多东西并且神经重新布线发生和做梦时。

But for which there's also a lot of examples of very accomplished creatives using that sort of thing of meditative like approaches, you know, forcing oneself to be still and thinking.

但也有很多非常有成就的创意者使用冥想之类的方法的例子，你知道，强迫自己保持静止和思考。

So it sounds like you incorporate both.

所以听起来你将两者结合起来。

And I'm curious as a computer scientist who writes code does theorems, does a lot of math where you can't just kind of wing it.

我很好奇，作为一名编写代码、做定理、做大量数学的计算机科学家，你不能只是即兴发挥。

There's a right and wrong answer involved.

这涉及到正确和错误的答案。

What is your mode for sitting down and working through something that's linear and hard?

您坐下来解决线性且困难的事情的模式是什么？

Yeah, it's interesting the way you talk about it, right?

是的，你谈论这件事的方式很有趣，对吧？

Because when I'm walking, and this is actually something you can train, you know, and I talked about this one of my books once that you can actually train yourself to maintain your internal eye of focus more stably while you're walking, right?

因为当我走路时，这实际上是你可以训练的东西，你知道，我曾经在我的一本书中谈到过，你实际上可以训练自己在走路时更稳定地保持内眼的聚焦，对吗？

So I call this productive meditation in deep work actually.

所以我实际上将这种称为深度工作中的富有成效的冥想。

And I, I practice this in grad school.

而我，我在研究生院练习这个。

Right.

正确的。

Ok.

好的。

So I'm going to work on a particular problem while I walk and then you actually practice bringing your attention back to the central problem and it, I don't know exactly what's happening, but you get a little bit more, facility working with your working memory, a little bit more efficiency with bringing stuff in and out of the working memory.

所以我会在走路的时候解决一个特定的问题，然后你实际上练习把你的注意力带回到中心问题上，我不知道到底发生了什么，但你会得到更多一点，更容易使用你的工作记忆，在将东西带入和带出工作记忆时效率更高一些。

And so I trained myself that I could actually write a couple of paragraphs in my head, maybe not word for, but basically word for word, like figure out how I'm going to do it or figure out enough steps of a math proof to capture like a key insight like OK, now I'm gonna get around this, then you have to sit down and actually formally capture that.

所以我训练自己，我实际上可以在脑子里写下几段话，也许不是逐字逐句，但基本上是逐字逐句，比如弄清楚我将如何做到这一点，或者弄清楚数学证明的足够步骤来捕捉像好的关键见解，现在我要解决这个问题，然后你必须坐下来，真正正式地捕捉它。

And yeah, for me, that's still working with notebooks though when I was coming up in grad school and I was just excavating these thoughts recently, we, we were talking before the, we recorded that, you know, I just wrote this essay about what I learned as a grad student that impacted all my writing as a grad student in the theory group at MIT, which was just purified concentration.

是的，对我来说，这仍然是在笔记本上进行的，尽管当我进入研究生院时，我最近刚刚挖掘这些想法，我们，我们之前谈论过，我们记录下来，你知道，我刚刚写了一篇关于我作为研究生学到的东西的文章，它影响了我作为麻省理工学院理论组研究生的所有写作，这只是纯粹的专注。

This is where all the deep work ideas come from, right?

这就是所有深层工作想法的来源，对吧？

I mean, it was just world class concentrators there.

我的意思是，那里有世界级的集中器。

The method was very still more than one person white board.

方法很静止，多人白板。

So if you have two or three people staring at the same white board, you're actually going up the level of concentration you achieve because if you let your attention wander, you disengage that attention, there's a social capital cost because now I've fallen out of the, the white board effect discussion.

因此，如果你有两三个人盯着同一个白板，你实际上会提高注意力，因为如果你让注意力分散，你就会分散注意力，就会产生社会资本成本，因为现在我已经退出了白板效应的讨论。

That's going to be a problem.

这将是一个问题。

So you actually maintain your focus at a higher level and then when someone else is making their move, ok.

所以你实际上将注意力保持在更高的水平上，然后当其他人采取行动时，好吧。

You know what about this?

你知道这是什么情况吗？

And they're working math, it's all math on the board.

他们正在做数学，都是黑板上的数学。

You're giving that the highest attention you're capable of because you want to keep up, right?

你给予了你所能给予的最高关注，因为你想跟上，对吗？

You don't want to fall behind.

你不想落后。

So it was like this hack that was figured out in the theory group that if you put two or three people at the same white board to try to alchemy these insights into actual mathematically precise proofs, you get a 20 30% boost in your concentration level and, and that could make all the difference, right?

因此，就像理论小组中发现的这个黑客一样，如果你让两三个人在同一个白板上尝试将这些见解炼金成实际的数学精确证明，你的注意力水平就会提高 20% 到 30%，这可能会带来很大的不同，对吗？

If you're working on a very hard proof, 20 30% boost, could be the difference between solving it or not.

如果你正在做一个非常难的证明，20% 30% 的提升可能就是解决它与否的区别。

In one of these situations where you're at the white board or chalkboard.

在其中一种情况下，您位于白板或黑板前。

And there are two other individuals facing it?

还有另外两个人面对着它？

Are they interrupting you or is the etiquette in that scenario to just let the person go until their natural inclination to raise a hand and, and scream.

他们是在打断你，还是在这种情况下，让对方走开，直到他们自然地举手并尖叫为止。

Help whoever has the marker on the board, they're the ones talking.

帮助黑板上有标记的人，他们才是说话的人。

So you go OK.

所以你走吧。

What about this, you say, and now you're working, you're writing down equations or drawing your diagram and everyone is just watching and then when they're done, everyone steps back and looks at it, then you can step forward.

你说，这个怎么样，现在你正在工作，你正在写下方程式或绘制图表，每个人都在观看，然后当他们完成时，每个人都后退一步看它，然后你可以向前迈进。

Ok?

好的？

But what if we did this?

但如果我们这样做呢？

And then, and you still work on it.

然后，你仍然继续努力。

So, so when I got built some offices or worked out some offices near my house, like one of the first things we put in there was a white board so they could have Computer Science collaborators come because we can't work on theory otherwise.

所以，当我在我家附近建造了一些办公室或设计了一些办公室时，就像我们首先放的东西之一就是一块白板，这样他们就可以让计算机科学合作者来，因为否则我们就无法进行理论研究。

Like it is the thing we need is a white board, right?

就像我们需要的是白板一样，对吧？

When I started grad school, they had just built this new $300 million Frank Gehry designed building for the Computer Science, artificial intelligence laboratory and the linguistics.

当我开始读研究生时，他们刚刚建造了这座耗资 3 亿美元的弗兰克·盖里 (Frank Gehry) 为计算机科学、人工智能实验室和语言学设计的新建筑。

But half of it was Computer Science.

但其中一半是计算机科学。

I know those buildings because the peak hour and the mcgovern Neuroscience and those buildings are very interesting.

我知道那些建筑物是因为高峰时段和麦戈文神经科学以及那些建筑物非常有趣。

People should check them out if they're ever in.

人们应该检查一下他们是否曾经进来过。

Yeah.

是的。

The Kendall Square stop.

肯德尔广场站。

The status center.

状态中心。

Yeah.

是的。

Right down the street from the Kendall Square stop.

就在肯德尔广场站的街道上。

Yeah.

是的。

So the sixth floor was where the theatrics were.

所以六楼就是剧场的地方。

This is where I was.

这就是我所在的地方。

So I, you know, they opened that building the year I started the doctoral program.

所以我，你知道，他们在我开始博士课程的那一年开设了那栋大楼。

And what did they want to show me when they, when they brought me to this $300 million building?

当他们带我来到这座价值 3 亿美元的大楼时，他们想向我展示什么？

Look at our white boards.

看看我们的白板。

That's what they were proud of.

这就是他们引以为傲的事情。

They had filled the common space on the sixth floor.

他们已经占据了六楼的公共空间。

The theory floor with these freestanding double sided whiteboards, it was like a maze of whiteboards and this is what everyone was so excited about was.

理论楼层配有这些独立式双面白板，就像一个白板迷宫，这也是每个人都感到兴奋的地方。

Yeah, look at our whiteboard coverage, you know, surrounded by a $300 million meal.

是的，看看我们的白板报道，你知道，周围都是价值 3 亿美元的大餐。

I tried, I was trying to explain this to someone recently.

我尝试过，最近我试图向某人解释这一点。

Having good white boards to us is like an astronomer saying, look, we got this great radio telescope like this is going to allow us to get data to work on that.

对我们来说，拥有好的白板就像天文学家说，看，我们有这个伟大的射电望远镜，这样我们就可以获取数据来进行研究。

We wouldn't otherwise have access to, I think to a theoretician.

我认为对于理论家来说，否则我们就无法获得。

That's why you see a white board because you know, if you want to think at the very highest level, you need two or three people staring at the same thing taking turns with the marker, pushing each other past where they're comfortable.

这就是为什么你会看到一块白板，因为你知道，如果你想在最高层次上思考，你需要两三个人盯着同一件事，轮流拿着记号笔，互相推过他们觉得舒服的地方。

I, I love this because I often think about visual maps that represent our internal memory stores and plans, et cetera for productivity.

我，我喜欢这个，因为我经常思考代表我们内部记忆存储和计划等生产力的视觉地图。

I've always relied heavily on the on the white board by getting one for home.

我一直非常依赖白板，买了一个回家。

I have one here in the podcast studio.

我在播客工作室里有一个。

All of my podcast notes for the my solo episodes are distilled down to 4, 8.5 by 11 notes which are photographs of the, the white board and I don't use a teleprompter.

我的独奏剧集的所有播客笔记都精简为 4、8.5 x 11 个笔记，这些笔记是白板的照片，而且我不使用提词器。

That's why I've been accused of using one before I don't even know how that would work.

这就是为什么我在不知道它如何运作之前就被指责使用它。

But it's extremely useful to use the whiteboard.

但使用白板非常有用。

And I think because ideas are so easily put up there and removed.

我认为因为想法很容易被提出和删除。

There's something about writing on things that are vertical as opposed to on a flat surface.

在垂直的物体上书写与在平面上书写不同。

I really because that's actually the way our visual perception casts things, we don't cast visual perception on the ground where we use, we experience the visual world mostly in front of us.

我真的因为这实际上是我们视觉感知投射事物的方式，我们不会将视觉感知投射到我们使用的地面上，我们主要体验眼前的视觉世界。

I think the cognitive map and the visual map are inextricably linked for at least for sighted folks.

我认为认知图和视觉图是密不可分的，至少对于视力正常的人来说是这样。

So I think there's really something there.

所以我认为那里确实有东西。

So in the absence of colleagues to sit there and boost our attention by 25 to 30%.

因此，在没有同事坐在那里的情况下，我们的注意力可以提高 25% 到 30%。

What could one do?

一个人能做什么呢？

Do you have a, you said you have a white board at home?

你有没有，你说你家里有白板？

I certainly use the whiteboard.

我当然使用白板。

Do you work on it the same way you would in those early days just with, in the absence of, of, of colleagues looking on?

你是否像早期那样在没有同事在场的情况下工作？

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

So you work on it just like someone's there.

所以你就像有人在那里一样工作。

The other hack is using really good notebooks.

另一个技巧是使用非常好的笔记本。

That's always made a big difference for me.

这对我来说总是有很大的影响。

Paper, paper notebooks.

纸质，纸质笔记本。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah, though, though, recently I've been messing around with a remarkable, which is one of these digital notebooks where it's E ink technology.

是的，不过，最近我一直在摆弄一个非凡的东西，这是采用电子墨水技术的数字笔记本之一。

So it's like a Kindle but you can write on it.

它就像 Kindle，但你可以在上面写字。

But you have endless pages on it.

但上面有无穷无尽的页面。

So I've been messing around with that recently.

所以我最近一直在搞这个。

But I remembered when I was a postdoc, for example, I found it recently.

但我记得当我是博士后的时候，比如我最近发现了它。

I went and bought a lab notebook because those are expensive.

我去买了一本实验室笔记本，因为它们很贵。

At least for a postdoc.

至少对于博士后来说是这样。

Right.

正确的。

It's like $70 because a lab notebook has to have archival quality paper.

大约 70 美元，因为实验室笔记本必须采用档案质量的纸张。

It's bound, it's bound.

绑定了，绑定了。

Yeah.

是的。

People might not realize this lab notebooks need to be kept for many years.

人们可能没有意识到这个实验室笔记本需要保存很多年。

You, you, you're not supposed to tear pages out of them.

你，你，你不应该把它们撕下来。

And so they tend to be bound.

所以他们往往会受到束缚。

So if you have terrible handwriting, like I do, you just have to deal with it.

所以，如果你像我一样，字迹很糟糕，你就必须处理它。

You can't rip it out and it's thick, thick paper, acid archival paper, big sturdy covers.

你无法把它撕下来，它是厚厚的纸，酸性档案纸，又大又坚固的封面。

But I bought this because I thought, OK, look, I'm going to take it more seriously because I think that's also part of what goes on with the white board is your mind thinks about writing on the big vertical space as a, a public crystallization of thoughts.

但我买了这个，因为我想，好吧，听着，我会更认真地对待它，因为我认为这也是白板所发生的事情的一部分，你的大脑认为在大垂直空间上书写是一种公共思想的结晶。

I'm putting this up for people to see even if there's no one actually there to see it.

我把这个放出来让人们看，即使没有人真正在那里看到它。

And so you take it more seriously, right?

所以你会更认真地对待它，对吗？

If I'm writing on a white board in class, I'm not just going to put up nonsense like I'm going to be very careful about what I'm writing because you imagine there's an audience.

如果我在课堂上在白板上写字，我不会只是胡说八道，就像我会非常小心地写东西一样，因为你想象有观众。

This is something for other people to see.

这是给其他人看的。

And so you get a little bit of a similar effect.

所以你会得到一些类似的效果。

If you have a very nice notebook, you think, look, I don't want to waste pages and somehow that helps with the thinking.

如果你有一个非常好的笔记本，你会想，看，我不想浪费页面，这在某种程度上有助于思考。

So then I found this notebook because I store my old notebooks in my closet.

然后我发现了这个笔记本，因为我把旧笔记本存放在衣柜里。

So I found it and when I was working on a recent book, I found it, I went through it.

所以我找到了它，当我在写最近的一本书时，我找到了它，我浏览了它。

Right.

正确的。

And then I started ticking off, this turned into a paper, this turned into a grant.

然后我开始勾选，这变成了一篇论文，这变成了一笔资助。

This notebook, I used it for maybe two years.

这个笔记本，我用了大概两年了。

Only used maybe about half the pages.

大概只用了一半左右的页面。

It's all very careful, neat script and diagrams.

一切都非常仔细、整洁的脚本和图表。

I think I found seven different peer reviewed papers or funded grants where the core ideas were in this notebook.

我想我发现了七篇不同的同行评审论文或资助的资助，其核心思想都在这本笔记本中。

So it was like that $70 was a an incredible investment because when I, when I got to work in that notebook, it must have been pushing my thinking to a new level because it was an incredible concentration of actual publishable results were coming out of his pages.

所以这 70 美元就像是一笔令人难以置信的投资，因为当我开始在那个笔记本上工作时，它一定将我的思维推向了一个新的水平，因为它令人难以置信地集中了实际可发布的结果从他的页面中出来。

Yeah, it seems like we would all do well regardless of our field to have some very low bar method of capture where if we just have an idea that spontaneously comes to mind that we can capture that in a voice memo or dare I say and of a phone notes segment.

是的，似乎无论我们的领域如何，我们都会做得很好，有一些非常低标准的捕获方法，如果我们只是有一个自发地想到的想法，我们可以在语音备忘录中捕获它，或者我敢说，在电话笔记片段中。

But then something as you're suggesting like a, a whiteboard, like a bound notebook where the moment we look at it.

但是，正如您所建议的那样，就像白板，就像我们查看它的那一刻的装订笔记本一样。

It brings about a level of seriousness to our, to our thinking and to our actions, sort of like this is different than just texting.

它给我们、我们的思维和我们的行动带来了一定程度的严肃性，这有点不同于短信。

I mean, what we're really talking about are kind of layers of sophistication but not in a snobby way in terms of highest productivity and quality to kind of I don't know, bubble gum wrapper on, on the floor type of levels of quote unquote productivity.

我的意思是，我们真正谈论的是一种复杂的层次，但不是以一种势利的方式实现最高的生产力和质量，我不知道，泡泡糖包装纸上，在地板上的报价水平的生产力水平。

Well, I mean, I've become a fan of this idea of, of having specialized capture for specific type of work.

嗯，我的意思是，我已经成为这个想法的粉丝，即为特定类型的工作进行专门的捕捉。

So for example, I'm, I'm a big believer in pretty quickly, you want to capture ideas in the tool you use to do that work.

举个例子，我坚信，你想很快地在你用来完成这项工作的工具中捕捉想法。

So when I have ideas for an article or a book, I'm going to go write to Scribner, which is specialty, this is specialty software writers used to write, right?

所以当我对一篇文章或一本书有想法时，我会写信给 Scribner，这是专业的，这是专业软件作家用来写的，对吗？

I'm gonna go right to a Scribner project and start putting these in the research section of that Scribner project.

我将直接进入 Scribner 项目并开始将这些内容放入 Scribner 项目的研究部分。

When I'm working on a math or Computer Science thing, I might work out proof ideas on paper, but I pretty quickly want to get that into a latex document.

当我从事数学或计算机科学方面的工作时，我可能会在纸上提出证明想法，但我很快就想将其写入乳胶文档中。

So, so the markup language that you use for and sort of like applied math papers, right?

那么，您使用的标记语言有点像应用数学论文，对吧？

The the tool we use to actually write papers.

我们实际用来撰写论文的工具。

I'm going to move an idea into there as soon as I can, I'm gonna move proofs out of a notebook and into formally marked up like you would for a paper, you know, as soon as I would.

我会尽快将一个想法转移到那里，我会将校样从笔记本中移出并进行正式标记，就像您在论文中所做的那样，你知道，尽快。

So this idea, this is something I've been leaning into more is capture the notes in the tool you're going to use, take out the middle man in some sense, right?

所以这个想法，这是我一直更倾向于在你将要使用的工具中捕获笔记，在某种意义上去掉中间人，对吧？

So it's, it's reducing friction but also puts you in the right mind space like OK, this idea, I'm going to put it where I'm going to need it later as opposed to a more elaborate third party system that you construct, that you then later pull everything out of as needed.

所以，它减少了摩擦，但也让你处于正确的思维空间，就像好吧，这个想法，我将把它放在我稍后需要的地方，而不是你构建的更复杂的第三方系统，然后你可以根据需要从中取出所有内容。

This is what I've been doing more recently.

这就是我最近一直在做的事情。

Let's just get straight to the tool I'm eventually going to use with maybe a high quality notebook intermediary if I'm actually literally working out thoughts.

让我们直接讨论我最终将使用的工具，也许是一个高质量的笔记本中介，如果我真的在思考的话。

So math, you have to work out thoughts, but I'll get that into an actual paper format pretty quickly.

所以数学，你必须弄清楚想法，但我会很快将其转化为实际的论文格式。

Tell me what you think of.

告诉我你的想法。

This what I always call protocol.

这就是我一直所说的协议。

If I want to learn something from a manuscript I read or a book chapter, I used to highlight things and I had a very elaborate extracted from my university days system of stars and exclamation marks and underline.

如果我想从我读过的手稿或书籍章节中学习一些东西，我会突出显示一些内容，并且我从大学时期的星星、感叹号和下划线系统中提取了非常详细的内容。

That mean a lot to me that can yes, bring me back to a given segment within the chapter.

这对我来说意义重大，可以让我回到本章中的特定部分。

But a few years ago, I was teaching a course in the biology department at Stanford and for some reason, we had them read a study about information retention.

但几年前，我在斯坦福大学生物系教授一门课程，出于某种原因，我们让他们阅读了一项关于信息保留的研究。

And I learned from that study that one of the best things we can do is read information in whatever form a magazine, research article, et cetera book.

我从这项研究中了解到，我们能做的最好的事情之一就是阅读杂志、研究文章等书籍形式的信息。

And then to take some time away from that material, maybe walk, maybe close one's eyes, maybe leave them open, doesn't matter.

然后花一些时间远离这些材料，也许走路，也许闭上眼睛，也许睁开眼睛，都没关系。

And just try and remember specific elements.

并尝试记住特定的元素。

How much does one remember then go back to the material and look at it.

一个人记住了多少，然后回到材料并查看它。

And I've just been positively astonished at how much more information I can learn when I'm not simply going through motor commands of just underlining things and highlighting them, but stepping away and thinking, OK.

我非常惊讶地发现，当我不只是简单地通过运动命令来强调事物并突出显示它们，而是走开并思考时，我可以学到更多的信息。

Yeah, they, I don't, I don't remember how many subjects there were.

是的，他们，我不记得，我不记得有多少科目。

I'll go back and check that, maybe make a note and OK, they did this, then they did that and then like, and then it's crystallized and, and when, as I say this, I realize of course, this should work.

我会回去检查一下，也许做个笔记，好吧，他们这样做了，然后他们这样做了，然后喜欢，然后它就结晶了，当我这么说时，我当然意识到，这应该起作用。

This is the way that the brain learns.

这就是大脑学习的方式。

But somehow that's not the way we are taught to learn.

但不知何故，这并不是我们被教导的学习方式。

Well, I'm smiling because I, when I was 22 I wrote this book called How To Become a Straight A Student, right?

嗯，我微笑是因为我，当我 22 岁时，我写了这本书，叫《如何成为一名直学生》，对吧？

And, and the whole premise of the book was I'm gonna talk to actual college students who have Straight A's and who don't seem completely ground out, right?

而且，这本书的整个前提是我要和真正的大学生交谈，他们都是全优，而且看起来还没有完全磨练出来，对吧？

Like not burnt out and I'm just going to interview them, right?

就像没有精疲力竭，我只是要去采访他们，对吧？

And the protocol was how did you study for the last test?

协议是你如何准备最后一次测试？

Did you study for?

你读书是为了什么？

How did you take notes for the last?

最后你是怎么做笔记的？

So I was just asking them to walk through their methodology.

所以我只是要求他们介绍一下他们的方法。

The core idea of that book was active recall.

那本书的核心思想是主动回忆。

That was the core idea that replicating ideas we used to say is replicating the information from scratch as if teaching a class without looking at your notes.

这就是核心思想，我们过去常说的复制想法就是从头开始复制信息，就像在不看笔记的情况下上课一样。

That is the only way to learn.

这是唯一的学习方法。

And, and the thing about it was, it's a trade off.

而且，事情是这样的，这是一种权衡。

It doesn't take, it's efficient, doesn't take much time, but it's incredibly mentally taxing, right?

它不需要，它很有效，不需要太多时间，但它在精神上令人难以置信，对吧？

This is why students often avoid it.

这就是为什么学生经常回避它。

It is difficult to sit there and try to replicate and pull forth.

坐在那里尝试复制和推进是很困难的。

Ok.

好的。

What did I read here?

我在这里读到了什么？

How did that work?

那是如何运作的？

It's, it's mentally very taxing, but it's very time efficient, right?

虽然这在精神上非常费力，但非常节省时间，对吧？

If you're willing to essentially put up with that, with that pain, you learn very quickly and not only do you learn very quickly, you don't forget.

如果你愿意基本上忍受这种痛苦，你就会学得很快，而且你不仅学得很快，而且不会忘记。

It's almost like you have a pseudo photographic memory.

这几乎就像你有一个伪照相记忆一样。

When you study this way, you sit down to do a test and you're, you're replicating like whole lines from like what you, what you studied.

当你以这种方式学习时，你坐下来做一个测试，你会复制你所学的内容。

I the ideas sort of come out fully formed because it's such a fantastic way to, to actually learn.

我的想法已经完全成型，因为这是一种真正学习的奇妙方式。

It was my key like the whole premise that got me writing that book is I went through this, this period as a college student where, where I came in freshman year was like a fine student, not a great student, but a fine student.

这是我写这本书的关键，就像整个前提一样，我作为一名大学生经历了这段时期，我在大一的时候就像一个好学生，不是一个伟大的学生，而是一个优秀的学生。

And I was rowing crew and I was sort of like excited to do that.

我是划船队的一员，我对此感到很兴奋。

And then I developed a heart condition and had to stop congenital wiring in the heart atrial flutter thing.

然后我患上了心脏病，不得不停止先天性的心房扑动。

I mean, I couldn't recruit anymore prolapse of some sort.

我的意思是，我无法再招募某种脱垂的东西了。

It was AAA circuitry, a circuitry issue that would lead to a extremely rapid heartbeat.

这是 AAA 电路，一个会导致心跳极快的电路问题。

It's like a really rapid like tardia, right?

它就像像 tardia 一样非常快速，对吗？

You get 2, 250 beats a minute just and it could be exercise induced, right?

你每分钟心跳 2、250 次，这可能是运动引起的，对吗？

Which is not optimal.

这不是最佳的。

You could take beta blockers which would moderate the electrical timing, but beta blockers reduce your max heart rate.

您可以服用β受体阻滞剂来调节电计时，但β受体阻滞剂会降低您的最大心率。

And if you're an athlete where the entire thing that matters is your max heart rate.

如果您是一名运动员，最重要的是您的最大心率。

So you're doing something like a 2000 m rows, your performance on beta blockers just goes down and it makes no sense.

所以你正在做类似 2000 m 行的事情，你在 β 阻滞剂上的表现就会下降，这是没有意义的。

It's like being a basketball player that wears weighted shoes.

这就像一个穿着加重鞋的篮球运动员。

It's too frustrating.

太令人沮丧了。

It also makes you super mellow.

也让你变得超级温柔。

I was pretty mellow guy, but I was a worse rower.

我是一个很温和的人，但我是一个更糟糕的赛艇运动员。

So, so I stopped that.

所以，所以我停止了。

I was like, ok, I want to get serious about my, my studies.

我当时想，好吧，我想认真对待我的学习。

II, I can get serious about my studies and writing, right.

二、我可以认真学习、认真写作了，对吧。

That's when I actually made the decisions they've been stuck with for the next 25 years after that.

就在那时，我真正做出了他们在接下来的 25 年里一直坚持的决定。

But one of the things I did to get serious about my studies is I said I'm going to systematically experiment with how to study for tests and how to write papers.

但为了认真学习，我所做的一件事是我说我将系统地尝试如何学习考试和如何写论文。

And I had, I would try this.

我有，我会尝试这个。

How did it go deconstruct experiment?

解构实验是如何进行的？

Try this, how to go deconstruct experiment and active recall was a thing to turn me all around.

试试这个，如何去解构实验和主动回忆是让我彻底改变的事情。

And so I went from a pretty good student to 40, every single quarter, sophomore year, junior year, senior year, I got one a minus between my sophomore year through my senior year.

就这样我从一个非常好的学生变成了40岁，每个季度，大二，大三，大四，我从大二到大四之间都有一个减分。

It was like this miraculous transformation.

这就像这个奇迹般的转变。

It was active recall.

这是主动回忆。

I rebuilt all of my study.

我重建了我所有的书房。

So if it was for a humanities class, I had a whole way of taking notes that was all built around doing active recall for math classes.

因此，如果是人文学科，我有一套完整的记笔记方法，这些笔记都是围绕着数学课的主动回忆而建立的。

My main study tool was a stack of white paper.

我的主要学习工具是一叠白皮书。

All right.

好的。

Do this proof white piece of paper and just can I do it from scratch if I could I know that technique?

做这个证明白纸，如果我知道这项技术，我可以从头开始做吗？

If I don't?

如果我不这样做呢？

All right, I'm gonna come back and try it again, later, completely transformed.

好吧，我会回来再试一次，稍后，彻底改变。

You know, I did so well, academically, that's why I ended up writing that book to basically spread that message to other people.

你知道，我在学术上做得很好，这就是为什么我最终写了那本书，基本上是为了向其他人传播这一信息。

So I'm a huge advocate for active recall.

所以我是主动回忆的大力倡导者。

It's really hard, but it is the way to learn new things.

这确实很难，但这是学习新事物的方法。

I'd like to take a brief moment and thank one of our Sponsors and that's a G one, A G, one is a vitamin mineral Probiotic drink that also contains adaptogen.

我想花一点时间感谢我们的一位赞助商，那就是 G，A G，是一种维生素矿物质益生菌饮料，还含有适应原。

I started taking a G one way back in 2012.

早在 2012 年，我就开始单程考 G 级。

The reason I started taking it and the reason I still take it every day is that it ensures that I meet all of my quotas for vitamins and minerals and it ensures that I get enough prebiotic and probiotic to support gut health.

我开始服用它以及我仍然每天服用它的原因是它确保我满足所有维生素和矿物质的配额，并确保我获得足够的益生元和益生菌来支持肠道健康。

Now, gut health is something that over the last 10 years, we realized is not just important for the health of our gut, but also for our immune system and for the production of neurotransmitters and neuromodulators, things like dopamine and serotonin.

现在，在过去的十年里，我们意识到肠道健康不仅对我们的肠道健康很重要，而且对我们的免疫系统以及神经递质和神经调节剂（如多巴胺和血清素）的产生也很重要。

In other words, gut health is critical for proper brain functioning.

换句话说，肠道健康对于大脑的正常运作至关重要。

Now, of course, I strive to consume healthy whole foods for the majority of my nutritional intake every single day.

当然，现在我努力食用健康的天然食品作为我每天摄入的大部分营养。

But there are a number of things in A G one including specific micronutrients that are hard to get from whole foods or at least in sufficient quantities.

但 A G one 中有很多东西，包括特定的微量营养素，这些营养素很难从天然食物中获取，或者至少很难从足够的量中获取。

So A G one allows me to get the vitamins and minerals that I need.

因此，A G 可以让我获得所需的维生素和矿物质。

Probiotics, prebiotics, the adaptogen and critical micronutrients.

益生菌、益生元、适应原和关键微量营养素。

So anytime somebody asks me if they were to take just one supplement, what that supplement should be.

因此，每当有人问我是否只服用一种补充剂时，该补充剂应该是什么。

I tell them A G one because A G one supports so many different systems within the body that are involved in mental health, physical health and performance to try a G one.

我告诉他们 A G 1，因为 A G 1 支持体内许多不同的系统，这些系统涉及心理健康、身体健康和尝试 G 1 的表现。

Go to drink a G one.com/Huberman and you'll get a year supply of vitamin D three K, two and five free travel packs of a G one.

去喝 G one.com/Huberman，您将获得一年的维生素 D 3 K、两包和五包免费旅行装的 G one。

Again, that's drink a G one.com/Huberman.

再说一遍，那就是喝 G one.com/Huberman。

And as you pointed out it is very time efficient.

正如您所指出的，这是非常省时的。

Oh, yeah.

哦，是的。

You know, I.

你知道，我。

Mean, it was a problem, it was a social problem for me that I would have to pretend during finals period that I was going to the library to study because I would be done studying this act of recall.

意思是，这对我来说是一个问题，这是一个社会问题，我必须在期末考试期间假装我要去图书馆学习，因为我将完成对这种回忆行为的研究。

It's brutal, but it's incredibly efficient.

这很残酷，但效率却非常高。

You sit down there, I would have my cards.

你坐在那里，我拿着我的卡片。

I would Mark it.

我会标记它。

Ok.

好的。

I struggled with this.

我为此苦苦挣扎。

I'd put it in this pile.

我会把它放在这一堆里。

I got it done.

我完成了。

I'd put it in this pile.

我会把它放在这一堆里。

And so then you would just go back to the, I struggled with a pile, and work on that and then make a new, I struggled with a pile and these would exponentially decay.

然后你就回到过去，我在一堆东西上挣扎，然后继续工作，然后制作一个新的，我在一堆东西上挣扎，这些会呈指数级衰减。

And so in like a few hours you could really master, you know, with a few other tricks that work, you could really master the material pretty quickly.

因此，在几个小时内，您就可以真正掌握，您知道，通过其他一些有效的技巧，您可以很快真正掌握这些材料。

And then what am I supposed to do?

那我该怎么办呢？

I didn't do all nighters like you want to make any sense.

我没有像你想要的那样通宵达旦地做任何事情。

Like active recall is how you prepare and it's gonna take four hours and it's gonna be tough.

就像主动回忆是你的准备方式一样，这需要四个小时，而且会很艰难。

So do it in the morning when you have energy and then you're done.

因此，请在早上精力充沛的时候进行，然后就完成了。

I love it.

我喜欢它。

I learned essentially all of neuron anatomy, looking down the microscope at tissue samples.

通过在显微镜下观察组织样本，我基本上了解了所有神经元解剖学。

And then I would try and take photographs with my eyes.

然后我会尝试用眼睛拍照。

I do not have a photographic memory, but then I would get home in the evening.

我没有过目不忘的记忆力，但我会在晚上回家。

Look through the neuroanatomy textbook, lie down and try and fly through the different circuits in my mind.

翻阅神经解剖学教科书，躺下并尝试在我脑海中的不同回路中飞翔。

And then if I arrived at a structure in the brain that I couldn't identify, I would then go check my notes and go back.

然后，如果我到达大脑中我无法识别的结构，我就会去检查我的笔记并返回。

So, so basically I learned neuron, which I, you know, I'm poor at a great many things in life but neuron, I'm, I'm, I'm solid at and then some, if I may say so and it's because there's a mental map, you can move through it, you know, fly through it dynamically.

所以，基本上我学习了神经元，我，你知道，我在生活中的很多事情上都很差，但是神经元，我，我，我很擅长，然后是一些，如果我可以这么说的话，这是因为有一张心理地图，你可以在它中移动，你知道，动态地飞过它。

And that it's the same process.

这是相同的过程。

Not all things lend themselves to that approach.

并非所有事情都适合这种方法。

I'm guessing maybe we could think of a few that don't.

我想也许我们可以想出一些没有的。

I guess if people were learning music, that might be tricky, maybe they need the sheet music in front of them.

我想如果人们正在学习音乐，那可能会很棘手，也许他们需要面前的乐谱。

I don't know, I'm not a musician.

我不知道，我不是音乐家。

I mean, I studied a professional guitar player at one point.

我的意思是，我曾经研究过一位职业吉他手。

You were a professional guitar.

你是一名专业吉他手。

I studied one.

我研究过一个。

So for, for a book, everything's from some book, I've written a lot of books.

所以，对于一本书来说，一切都来自某本书，我写了很多书。

So I wrote a book 10 years ago.

所以我十年前写了一本书。

Where I was trying to figure out as part of it, how do people get better at things?

我试图弄清楚人们如何在事情上做得更好？

And so I spent time with a professional guitar player.

所以我和一位专业吉他手一起度过了时光。

They said I just wanted to see how he practiced.

他们说我只是想看看他是如何练习的。

Like, what, what does this actually look like?

就像，什么，这实际上是什么样子的？

And what I learned from them is like, what they do is, yeah, they have the music in front of them, but for them it's all speed.

我从他们身上学到的是，他们所做的是，是的，他们面前有音乐，但对他们来说，这就是速度。

So they take a piece.

所以他们拿了一块。

He was working on licks for he was a new acoustic style player and they had these kind of blue grassy type licks.

他正在研究舔，因为他是一个新的原声风格演奏者，他们有这种蓝色草型舔。

And he probably had to memorize and he knew how fast he could comfortably play it for them.

他可能必须记住，而且他知道他可以轻松地为他们演奏多快。

It's all about adding 20% to what they're comfortably doing.

这一切都是为了在他们感到舒服的事情上增加 20%。

And then that, that, that push past where they're comfortable.

然后那个、那个、超越他们感到舒服的地方。

And the thing I remember writing about him was he was concentrating so hard to try to hit the like 20% faster than he was used to.

我记得写到他时，他非常努力地集中注意力，试图以比平时快 20% 的速度击球。

It is he'd forget to breathe.

他会忘记呼吸。

So he'd be like going, going, going and then just gasp, you know, like because his body would, you know, force him, force him to breathe.

所以他会不停地走，走，走，然后只是喘气，你知道，就像因为他的身体会，你知道，强迫他，强迫他呼吸。

So, yeah, there it seemed to be all about deliberate practice.

所以，是的，这似乎都是关于刻意练习的。

So like how do you, they don't waste any time.

所以就像你一样，他们不会浪费任何时间。

Professional musicians waste no time doing things they're comfortable doing every time they spin practicing.

专业音乐家在每次旋转练习时都不会浪费时间做他们觉得舒服的事情。

And this is also incredibly difficult.

这也是极其困难的。

But every time it's been practicing is almost entirely in a state of, I'm not comfortable with this.

但每次的练习几乎都是处于这样的状态，我对此感到不舒服。

But if I focus as hard as I can, maybe I'm going to pull this off.

但如果我尽可能集中注意力，也许我就能成功。

Like I'll pull off the sonata at this new speed.

就像我会以这种新的速度完成奏鸣曲一样。

I'm trying to do, maybe I'll pull it off.

我正在努力去做，也许我能成功。

It's like the maximal growth stimulating state.

这就像最大的生长刺激状态。

And so I wrote in the, in this chapter, why was he so much better at guitar than I was at the same age?

所以我在这一章中写道，为什么他的吉他演奏比同龄的我好得多？

Because I played a lot of guitar when I was younger and was in rock bands, right?

因为我年轻时经常弹吉他，并且加入过摇滚乐队，对吗？

And this kid was young, right?

而且这孩子年纪还小吧？

But really, really good.

但真的非常非常好。

And I said, OK, now I realize it, I can recognize me when I look back at my time playing guitar at his age, I played stuff I knew how to play.

我说，好吧，现在我意识到了，当我回顾我在他这个年纪弹吉他的时光时，我可以认出我，我演奏了我知道如何演奏的东西。

Like that's what was fun.

好像这就是有趣的事情。

Like, yeah, I want to like jam along with the songs I knew or, you know, rip some pentatonic scales, you know, to like a Jimi Hendrix album.

就像，是的，我想喜欢即兴演奏我知道的歌曲，或者，你知道，撕开一些五声音阶，你知道，喜欢吉米·亨德里克斯的专辑。

It was fun and he spent almost no time, the pro spent no time having fun practicing was your brain had to be, you know, uncomfortable.

这很有趣，他几乎没有花时间，职业选手没有花时间进行有趣的练习，因为你的大脑一定会感到不舒服。

So I learned a lot from that, you know, this actually led to a bit of a battle because of my, my readers, there was this this battle that emerged where people were trying to combine Anders Erickson in deliberate practice with Mihaly Chung sent me high and flow.

所以我从中学到了很多东西，你知道，这实际上导致了一场战斗，因为我的读者，人们试图将安德斯·埃里克森（Anders Erickson）与米哈里·钟（Mihaly Chung）进行刻意练习结合起来，这让我兴奋不已。

And really they were trying to make flow apply everywhere.

事实上，他们试图让心流适用于任何地方。

Like it's all about flow.

就像一切都与流量有关。

Deliberate practice is flow, everything is flow.

刻意练习就是心流，一切都是心流。

The whole thing is to get into a state of flow.

整个事情就是要进入一种心流状态。

And I remember Anders talking about this at some point and say like no, no, no, like the state of practice that makes you better.

我记得安德斯在某个时候谈到过这个问题，他说不，不，不，就像让你变得更好的练习状态。

It's the opposite of flow, right?

这与流相反，对吗？

And flow, you lose track of time when you're practicing like that professional guitar player.

当你像专业吉他手一样练习时，你会忘记时间。

You know, every second that passes by because it's like incredibly difficult, like what you're doing, your mind is rebelling.

你知道，每一秒过去都是因为这非常困难，就像你正在做的事情一样，你的思想在反抗。

It's not natural, you know, it's not fun, it's not the skier going down the hill and it's all instinct, it's you, it's all you thinking about exactly what you're trying to do.

这不是自然的，你知道，这并不有趣，这不是滑雪者从山上下来，这全是本能，是你，这全是你在思考你想要做什么。

And so, you know, I began to push this point out here is like, it's not all about flow, like actually getting better at things is really painful.

所以，你知道，我开始在这里提出这一点，就像，这并不全是关于心流，就像实际上在事情上变得更好真的很痛苦。

Sometimes deliberate practice is not the same as flow.

有时刻意练习并不等同于心流。

And there's a lot of fights about this for a while.

一段时间以来，关于这个问题有很多争论。

I think there was a lot of flow advocates that just wanted life to be flow all the time.

我认为有很多心流倡导者只是希望生活一直都是心流的。

But I think Anders was right?

但我认为安德斯是对的？

Because I watched these professionals practice like that's what it is.

因为我看到这些专业人士的练习就是如此。

It's not fun.

这并不好玩。

Well, everything we know about neuroplasticity, which of course is the nervous system's ability to change in response to experience says that there needs to be some neurochemical or electrical condition that changes in the nervous system in order to queue up plasticity.

好吧，我们对神经可塑性的了解，当然是神经系统根据经验而变化的能力，表明神经系统中需要有一些神经化学或电条件发生变化，才能排队可塑性。

And to my knowledge, one of the most robust of those is the release of the so called catecholamines, dopamine, epinephrine, nor epinephrine, dopamine because it's involved in so many things can be a little bit of a distractor.

据我所知，其中最强大的一种是所谓的儿茶酚胺、多巴胺、肾上腺素的释放，也不是肾上腺素、多巴胺，因为它涉及很多事情，可能会有点干扰。

So let's just say epinephrine, norepinephrine, adrenaline nor adrenaline create in the body and mind to some extent, a state of alertness and often a state of agitation.

因此，我们只能说肾上腺素、去甲肾上腺素、肾上腺素或肾上腺素在某种程度上会在身体和精神中产生一种警觉状态，并且常常是一种焦躁状态。

But if you think about it in the absence of some neuromodulators like those that change the conditions for wiring of neurons, you know, everyone loves fire together, wire together a beautiful statement by Carla Schatz, not Donald Hebb.

但如果你在缺乏某些神经调节剂（例如那些改变神经元连接条件的神经调节剂）的情况下考虑一下，你就会知道，每个人都喜欢火，卡拉·沙茨（Carla Schatz）而不是唐纳德·赫布（Donald Hebb）的一句美丽的话连接在一起。

Doctor Carla Schatz said that not Donald Hebb.

卡拉·沙茨医生说的不是唐纳德·赫布。

But why would neurons need to change their patterns of connectivity if you can complete the operation?

但如果你能完成这个操作，为什么神经元需要改变它们的连接模式呢？

The nervous system needs to it doesn't feel discomfort, it creates discomfort, but the nervous system needs a cue to that.

神经系统需要它不会感到不适，它会产生不适，但神经系统需要对此的提示。

Ok.

好的。

This is different.

这是不同的。

I'm failing and it's the failures that actually trigger the plasticity is the discomfort that cues, that conditions are different.

我失败了，而失败实际上引发了可塑性，即暗示条件不同的不适。

Now, otherwise, there's simply no reason to devote energetic resources to rewiring neurons.

否则的话，现在根本没有理由投入精力来重新连接神经元。

And I feel like we don't learn this when we're kids.

我觉得我们小时候没有学过这一点。

We and I think as kids, we can learn so much without that feeling of agitation, we get into these modes of looking for flow and I have respect for the, the research on flow and the people who are bald in, but I'd like to talk about flow a little bit.

我们和我认为，作为孩子，我们可以在没有那种焦虑感的情况下学到很多东西，我们进入这些寻找心流的模式，我尊重对心流的研究和秃顶的人，但我想谈谈心流。

The only thing I really know about flow for sure is that backwards?

我唯一真正了解的关于流程的事情就是倒退？

It spells wolf.

它拼的是狼。

So what of flow?

那么流量呢？

It's such an attractive idea, right?

这是一个很有吸引力的想法，对吧？

It's like Star Wars.

这就像星球大战。

It's like you have the force of and you're kind, you're doing things without thinking and awesome.

就好像你有力量而且很善良，你做事不假思索而且很棒。

But I can't flow myself through a paper and extract the critical data.

但我无法自己阅读论文并提取关键数据。

I can't create a podcast in flow.

我无法在 Flow 中创建播客。

But when it's done, it feels great, especially if you nail the, the key metrics.

但当它完成时，感觉很棒，特别是如果你确定了关键指标。

So what do you think about flow?

那么你对于流量有什么看法呢？

Let's, I'm not trying to beat up on it.

好吧，我并不是想打击它。

I just want to understand how, how you place it in the framework of learning and, and deep work.

我只是想了解如何将其置于学习和深度工作的框架中。

If it belongs there at all.

如果它真的属于那里的话。

It doesn't have a big place in it in the deep work framework.

它在深度工作框架中并没有多大的地位。

And, and this was what the controversy was for a while.

而且，这也是一段时间以来争议的焦点。

And, and I, I knew Mahaley a little bit like we, we corresponded some and I knew Anders a little bit like we corresponded some.

而且，我，我对马哈利的了解有点像我们，我们有一些通信，我对安德斯的了解有点像我们有一些通信。

So I sort of felt like I was you know, and, and both of them actually tragically died in the last three or four years, I think.

所以我觉得我就是你知道的，而且，我想他们俩在过去三四年里实际上都不幸去世了。

Yeah, I think both recently flow doesn't play a big role in the deep, deep work framework, right?

是的，我认为最近这两个流程在很深很深的工作框架中并没有发挥很大的作用，对吗？

So, so when I was trying to justify deep work.

所以，当我试图证明深度工作的合理性时。

So like why focusing without distraction was important?

那么为什么集中注意力、不分心很重要呢？

I was drawing a lot more for Andres work, right?

我为安德烈斯的作品画了很多，对吧？

Because why is focusing without distraction?

因为为什么要专注而不分心呢？

Important?

重要的？

Well, you have to quiet the neural circuitry.

好吧，你必须让神经回路安静下来。

So you can isolate the circuit that's actually relevant to the thing that you're doing, right?

所以你可以隔离与你正在做的事情实际相关的电路，对吗？

You're not going to get better at something.

你不会在某件事上变得更好。

If you have noisy circuitry.

如果您的电路有噪音。

This is, and that requires a really intense concentration.

这就是，那需要非常集中的注意力。

So that was one of the big advantages of deep work was if you're used to that cognitive state, you're gonna learn things faster.

因此，深度工作的一大优势是，如果你习惯了这种认知状态，你会学得更快。

And I think it was all on to understand why.

我认为这一切都在于理解为什么。

So if you're not distracted, I'm really focusing hard on what I'm doing, trying to learn this new thing, you're giving the right mental conditions.

因此，如果你不分心，我真的会非常专注于我正在做的事情，努力学习这个新事物，你就提供了正确的心理条件。

But it's not a flow state.

但这不是一种心流状态。

And I always used to say, OK, when your, when your deep work is not flow because of this, like a lot of deep work is you're trying to do something that is beyond your comfort zone and that's going to be difficult.

我总是说，好吧，当你的深度工作因此而无法进行时，就像很多深度工作一样，你试图做一些超出你舒适区的事情，而这将会很困难。

That's a state of deliberate practice.

这是一种刻意练习的状态。

And there's a famous paper about this where Anders actually explicitly says deliberate practice and flow are very different.

有一篇关于这一点的著名论文，安德斯实际上明确表示刻意练习和心流是非常不同的。

And, and I wrote an essay years ago called the Father of Deliberate Practice disowns flow.

而且，我几年前写过一篇文章，名为刻意练习之父否认心流。

And again, people are really flow partisans out there.

再说一遍，人们确实是流量的拥护者。

It's interesting, I think people just like the idea because it feels good.

这很有趣，我认为人们喜欢这个想法，因为它感觉很好。

But I mean, flow is the feeling of performance is the way I think about it.

但我的意思是，心流是表演的感觉，是我的思考方式。

It gets really hard to train for certain sports.

某些运动的训练非常困难。

But then when you're actually performing, you're in the game, you can fall in the flow, right?

但当你真正表演时，你就在游戏中，你可以融入其中，对吧？

Because then everything is undo and it's really hard to train guitar.

因为那样的话一切都会被撤销，而且训练吉他真的很难。

But like when you're performing in front of a big crowd, you probably, maybe you fall in the flow, maybe you don't, but you could, right.

但是就像当你在一大群人面前表演时，你可能，也许你会随波逐流，也许你不会，但你可以，对吧。

But it's a performance state, not the practicing, getting better state.

但这是一种表现状态，而不是练习、变得更好的状态。

So, you know, to me, flow has like very little role in how I think about what I do as a cognitive professional.

所以，你知道，对我来说，心流在我如何思考我作为认知专业人士所做的事情方面几乎没有什么作用。

It's just not something that comes up that often.

这只是不经常出现的事情。

I agree that we learn through focused work and that flow does manifest itself during performance and sometimes so much so that people exhibit virtuosity is they're surprising themselves even what, what, what's in there.

我同意我们通过专注的工作来学习，并且这种流动确实在表演过程中表现出来，有时以至于人们表现出精湛的技艺，他们甚至对里面的内容感到惊讶。

And that's kind of, I always think of it.

我总是这么想。

It's what is unskilled skilled, mastery, virtuosity, virtuosity seems to incorporate some sort of random elements of maybe even the performer has not done that before and they surprise themselves or something like that.

这就是不熟练的熟练、掌握、精湛技艺、精湛技艺似乎融入了某种随机元素，甚至表演者以前也没有这样做过，他们让自己感到惊讶或类似的东西。

Who knows?

谁知道？

These are, these are words for something that isn't easily quantified in the first place.

这些是，这些词是指那些一开始就不容易量化的东西。

But in terms of deep work and getting a little bit back to kind of practical steps towards deep work, I also have to ask you because I didn't earlier when you are on your laptop in your library with your fireplace and these books, it's a beautiful image actually that you've drawn for us in our minds.

但就深度工作和回到深度工作的实际步骤而言，我还必须问你，因为我之前没有问过你，当你在图书馆的笔记本电脑上、壁炉和这些书上时，实际上这是你在我们脑海中为我们绘制的美丽图像。

Is the wi fi connection to your computer activated or are you offline?

您计算机的 Wi-Fi 连接是否已激活或者您是否处于离线状态？

It's connected because it doesn't really matter to me, you know, because what, what is it, what's drawing my attention?

它是相互联系的，因为它对我来说并不重要，你知道，因为什么，它是什么，什么吸引了我的注意力？

I mean, the most important decision I think I made technically speaking to be a cognitive worker is I didn't lack of Social Media, like II, I think we underestimate the degree to which our problem with digital distraction is not the internet, it is not our phones, it is specific products and services that are engineered at great expense to pull you back to them when you take that away.

我的意思是，从技术上讲，我认为作为一名认知工作者，我所做的最重要的决定是，我并不缺乏社交媒体，就像II一样，我认为我们低估了我们的数字分心问题的程度，它不是互联网，不是我们的手机，而是特定的产品和服务，这些产品和服务是花费巨大代价设计的，当你拿走这些产品和服务时，它们会把你拉回到它们身边。

The internet's not that interesting.

互联网没那么有趣。

Like, I don't have a cycle of sites to go to, you know, I can check my email but I don't really know where else to go.

就像，我没有一个可以访问的网站周期，你知道，我可以查看我的电子邮件，但我真的不知道还能去哪里。

I mean, I could go to The New York Times, I guess, but then you've seen the articles, right?

我的意思是，我想我可以去《纽约时报》，但你已经看过那些文章了，对吧？

They, they change it once a day.

他们，他们每天改变一次。

There's just not much I've set things up so there's not much that's that interesting to me.

我没有设置太多东西，所以没有太多让我感兴趣的东西。

We've all heard of FOMO, fear of missing out.

我们都听说过 FOMO，即害怕错过的恐惧。

I feel like there's the other thing which is fear of missing something bad, right?

我觉得还有一件事就是害怕错过一些不好的东西，对吗？

Sort of like an anxiety, a more primitive anxiety within us that if we are not engaged on Social Media or looking at our phone often or texting often that it's not that we'll miss the party.

有点像一种焦虑，一种我们内心更原始的焦虑，如果我们不使用社交媒体、不经常看手机或不经常发短信，我们也不会错过聚会。

We'll miss the emergency.

我们会错过紧急情况。

You don't seem to suffer from those kind of everyday ills.

你似乎没有遭受这些日常疾病的困扰。

Yeah.

是的。

I mean, it doesn't happen that much.

我的意思是，这种情况并没有发生那么多。

I mean, I have a phone, you know, a standard.

我的意思是，我有一部电话，你知道，有一个标准。

No, I mean, I have my phone, I guess if I'm working away from it.

不，我的意思是，我有手机，我想如果我不在工作的话。

Yeah, I guess it's true if there is an emergency.

是的，我想如果有紧急情况的话确实如此。

But this was the case for a very long time.

但这种情况持续了很长一段时间。

Right.

正确的。

We didn't have smartphones till really relatively recently.

直到最近我们才拥有智能手机。

This is, you know, 15 years ago.

你知道，这是 15 年前的事了。

So we were just used to this until yesterday, essentially that there's just periods of time where you're, you're out of touch, like you're at a restaurant with someone, you're out of touch until you get back to your office.

所以直到昨天我们才习惯了这一点，本质上来说，只是在一段时间内你失去了联系，就像你和某人在餐馆里一样，你在回到办公室之前都失去了联系。

Like we were ok.

就像我们没事一样。

You know, we weren't plagued by emergencies that, that, led to disastrous results because we couldn't hear about it.

你知道，我们并没有受到紧急情况的困扰，这些紧急情况会因为我们听不到而导致灾难性的后果。

Right.

正确的。

Then you go to the movies like you're out of touch.

然后你就去看电影，就像你与世隔绝一样。

Right.

正确的。

And be a couple of hours.

并需要几个小时。

So you're in touch again.

所以你们又联系了。

And so I don't, you know, it's not something that's affected me as much.

所以我不知道，你知道，这对我影响不大。

So, maybe I'm working without my phone nearby.

所以，也许我工作时手机不在身边。

A lot of people have this response.

很多人都有这样的反应。

They begin sort of catastrophizing like what if this happens or this or that.

他们开始有些灾难性的想法，比如如果发生这样那样的情况该怎么办。

And I'm thinking, you know, I survived before that my parents survived without that, my grandparents survived without that.

我在想，你知道，我的父母在没有这些的情况下也能生存下来，我的祖父母在没有这些的情况下也能生存下来。

I don't worry about it as much, you know, and, and some of this maybe is just, this doesn't upset people as, as much as it used to.

我不太担心这个问题，你知道，而且，其中一些可能只是，这不会像以前那样让人们感到不安。

The fact I don't use a lot of these apps on my phone.

事实上，我在手机上使用的应用程序并不多。

But it really does upset people.

但确实让人心烦意乱。

Right.

正确的。

There's, well, what about this?

还有，那这个呢？

What about that?

那又怎样呢？

What about this?

这又如何呢？

And I don't know how much of this is just maybe I'm oblivious and how much of this is people back sliding explanation for why they do need their phone, why they do need to look at it all the time, but I, I get a lot of it.

我不知道这其中有多少可能只是我的疏忽，有多少是人们对为什么他们确实需要手机、为什么他们确实需要一直看它的解释，但我，我明白了很多。

You know, maybe they're upset and you don't know because you're not looking at your phone.

你知道，也许他们很沮丧，但你不知道，因为你没有看手机。

I'll tell you what, that's a blessing not knowing how upset people are at you.

我告诉你，不知道人们对你有多不满，这是一件幸事。

It's a blessing as a semi public figure.

作为一个半公众人物，这是一件幸事。

I'll tell you that.

我会告诉你的。

Yeah, I can comment on that but I won't.

是的，我可以对此发表评论，但我不会。

I am on Social Media and I do enjoy it.

我使用社交媒体，并且非常喜欢它。

I, I've got started posting on Instagram and then expanded to other platforms including the, the podcast, but there's a threshold beyond which it becomes counterproductive for sure.

我，我已经开始在 Instagram 上发帖，然后扩展到其他平台，包括播客，但有一个门槛，超过这个门槛肯定会适得其反。

I think there's information there like questions that people ask are often informative.

我认为那里有信息，比如人们提出的问题通常都是信息丰富的。

It's sort of like ending a class and asking are there any questions?

这有点像结束课程并询问还有什么问题吗？

Sometimes the comments that people bring back are truly informative towards both where they might have some misunderstanding, but also sometimes some really terrific ideas.

有时，人们带回来的评论确实对他们可能存在一些误解的地方提供了真正的信息，但有时也提供了一些非常了不起的想法。

So there's that, but I, I completely agree that there's a very precarious space.

就是这样，但我完全同意这是一个非常不稳定的空间。

And I'll just relay a quick anecdote years ago, I gave a quick lecture down at Santa Clara University south of Stanford.

我只想转述一个几年前的轶事，我在斯坦福以南的圣克拉拉大学做了一次简短的演讲。

And I was talking about this issue.

我正在谈论这个问题。

I recommended your book and a student came up afterwards and he said, you don't get it at that time.

我推荐了你的书，后来有一个学生上来，他说，你当时不明白。

I was in my early forties.

我当时四十出头。

He said, you don't get it.

他说，你不懂。

You know, you grew up without Social Media and the phone.

你知道，你是在没有社交媒体和电话的情况下长大的。

And so you've adopted it into your life, but we grew up with it and when my phone, he's speaking for himself in the first person, when my phone loses power, I feel a physical drain within my body.

所以你已经把它融入了你的生活，但我们是伴随着它长大的，当我的手机，他以第一人称为自己说话时，当我的手机断电时，我感到身体内的身体消耗。

And when it comes back on, I feel a lift within my body.

当它重新出现时，我感到身体内有一股升力。

So I, I'd love your thoughts on but they're not, you think the phone and perhaps Social Media as well are in some ways an extension of our brain.

所以我，我很想听听你的想法，但事实并非如此，你认为电话，也许还有社交媒体，在某种程度上都是我们大脑的延伸。

It's almost like another cortical area that contains all this information.

它几乎就像另一个包含所有这些信息的皮质区域。

It's, it's a version of us, this gets into notions of A I that we can talk about as well.

它是我们的一个版本，这涉及到我们也可以谈论的 A I 的概念。

I know you're involved in, in A I and writing about A I.

我知道你参与了 A I 并撰写有关 A I 的文章。

But, you know, to me the P when the phone is used in that way.

但是，你知道，对我来说，当手机以这种方式使用时。

It really is a, almost like a piece of neural machinery of sorts.

它确实是一种神经机器。

Yeah, I mean, there's two ways of looking at it.

是的，我的意思是，有两种看待它的方式。

Yeah.

是的。

So, so there is the, the sort of cyborg image, I suppose, right?

所以，我想，这就是一种半机械人的形象，对吗？

Like you, you are, you're extending your, you're plug it into this neos sphere, like you have this sort of digital network extension of information what's going on.

就像你一样，你正在扩展你的，你将它插入到这个新球体中，就像你拥有这种数字网络扩展的信息正在发生的事情一样。

There's also the much more pessimistic view, which is no, no, that feeling is the feeling of a moderate behavioral addiction, right?

还有一种更悲观的观点，那就是不，不，这种感觉是中度行为成瘾的感觉，对吗？

So you, you'll, you'll hear the same thing from a, a gambler.

所以你，你，你会从一个赌徒那里听到同样的话。

I really, when I'm away from being able to the play right to make my bets or do whatever.

我真的，当我无法正确地进行投注或做任何事情时。

Like I feel really if I feel not myself and then when I'm, when I'm around it and I can play and make some bets, play some poker or whatever it is, I feel, I feel myself that chips, right?

就像我真的感觉，如果我感觉不是自己，然后当我在，当我在它周围，我可以玩、下注、玩扑克或其他什么的时候，我感觉，我感觉自己有筹码，对吧？

Like they would say so there it could be, both of these things could be true.

就像他们会说的那样，这两件事都可能是真的。

I think the moderate behavioral addiction side is, is more true than, than a lot of us want to admit actually, like it, it does feel bad because moderate behavioral addictions build these, these feedback response loops and then you get the dopamine system going when the anticipation because what's on there is things that have been engineered that you're going to get this sort of highly engaging stimuli and then you see the deliverance of that stimuli, right?

我认为中度行为成瘾的一面比我们很多人实际上想要承认的更真实，就像它一样，它确实感觉很糟糕，因为中度行为成瘾建立了这些反馈反应循环，然后当你预期时，你会让多巴胺系统运转，因为那里有一些经过设计的东西，你将获得这种高度吸引人的刺激，然后你会看到这种刺激的传递，对吗？

This really nice piece of glass on a piece of metal, I'm going to press this sort of carefully this icon whose colors have been chosen because we know it's going to hit various parts of our neural alert systems to be as engaging as possible.

这是一块非常漂亮的金属上的玻璃，我将小心地按下这个图标，其颜色已被选择，因为我们知道它会影响我们神经警报系统的各个部分，使其尽可能吸引人。

And I'm going to see something in there that's going to generate some sort of emotional response.

我会在那里看到一些会产生某种情感反应的东西。

So, of course, when you see that thing sitting there, you want to use it and when you can't, it's AAA stymie dopamine response, you're like this, this is not good.

所以，当然，当你看到那个东西坐在那里时，你想使用它，但当你不能使用它时，它会阻碍多巴胺反应，你就像这样，这不好。

I'm uncomfortable and I, I think that's a big part of it as well.

我感到不舒服，我认为这也是其中很重要的一部分。

Because I've had this, you know, I've had this argument with, with some people and I, by the way, I see both sides of this, like there, there are great advantages to what people are doing with these tools.

因为我和一些人和我有过这样的争论，顺便说一句，我看到了这件事的两面，就像人们使用这些工具所做的事情有很大的优势。

It's just that it's all mixed up with all these disadvantages and it becomes very difficult.

只是所有这些缺点都混合在一起，变得非常困难。

It's like the alcohol in the neighborhood bars too potent, you know, and, and people are going there to socialize and they're coming home at three in the morning, you know, passing out, you know, it's like the balance is off, not that there's not something good there, but the balance is off.

这就像附近酒吧里的酒精太烈了，你知道，人们去那里社交，他们凌晨三点回家，你知道，昏倒了，你知道，就像失去了平衡，不是那里没有什么好东西，而是失去了平衡。

So it becomes pretty difficult to navigate.

所以导航变得相当困难。

So I think some of that's what's going on, especially with the younger generation that was raised on it, which is why, by the way, I think the cultural norms are gonna change around this.

所以我认为其中一些正在发生的事情，特别是对于在这个问题上长大的年轻一代，这就是为什么，顺便说一句，我认为文化规范将会围绕这个而改变。

I think we're gonna think about unrestricted internet usage, not as something that we just sort of bequeath on youth as they become 10 years old, but something that we're actually much more careful about, probably something that's going to be postpubescent is gonna make a lot more sense.

我认为我们会考虑不受限制的互联网使用，不是我们在青少年十岁的时候遗留给他们的东西，而是我们实际上更加小心的东西，也许青春期后的东西会更有意义。

Once you've had more brain development, once you've had more, social entrenchment, you sort of understand your identity, etcetera.

一旦你的大脑得到了更多的发展，一旦你有了更多的社会根基，你就会了解自己的身份，等等。

Because we recognize, you know, the, the flip side of plugging this thing into your brain is, yeah, you have access to more information, but it also pumps that into your brain.

因为我们认识到，你知道，将这个东西插入你的大脑的另一面是，是的，你可以获得更多信息，但它也会将这些信息注入你的大脑。

So, I don't know, I, I lean a little bit heavier towards the pessimistic read because I know too many people because of my books, who've really reduced the impact of these things in their lives and they don't, on the far side of that transformation, they don't typically report a great impoverishment and experience, experience.

所以，我不知道，我，我更倾向于悲观主义读物，因为我因为我的书而认识了太多人，他们确实减少了这些事情对他们生活的影响，而他们却没有，在这种转变的另一边，他们通常不会报告巨大的贫困和经历。

They don't report, I'm less mentally agile.

他们不报告，我的思维不太敏捷。

The information at my fingertips is less.

我能掌握的信息越来越少。

I, I'm, I'm missing out on life.

我，我，我错过了生活。

There's typically this coming out of the fog on the other side of it where they're like, oh, this is fine.

通常情况下，这种情况会从另一边的迷雾中显现出来，他们会说，哦，这很好。

So, you know, I'm a little bit suspicious about exactly what this mechanism is.

所以，你知道，我对这个机制到底是什么有点怀疑。

I think you're right about the, moderate behavioral addiction piece.

我认为你对适度行为成瘾的看法是正确的。

Years ago when I was starting my lab, I had grants to write and I found the phone to be pretty intrusive for that process.

几年前，当我开始我的实验室时，我有资金要写作，我发现手机对这个过程来说是相当干扰的。

So I used to give the phone to somebody in my lab and announced to everyone in my lab that if I asked for it back prior to 5 p.

因此，我常常把手机交给实验室里的某个人，并向实验室里的每个人宣布，如果我在下午 5 点之前要求归还手机，我会告诉实验室里的每个人。

m.

米。

that day, I would give everyone in the lab.

那天，我会给实验室里的每个人。

I think it was $100 bill.

我认为那是 100 美元的钞票。

My lab was pretty big at the time.

当时我的实验室相当大。

I was a junior professor.

我是一名初级教授。

They did not do not, sorry, academic institutions not to be named.

他们没有没有，抱歉，学术机构不具名。

Pay us very much despite what people might think.

不管人们怎么想，我们都给了我们很高的报酬。

And, and it was difficult several times throughout the day or more.

而且，一整天都很难几次或更多次。

I was like, oh, I really want to look at that thing but the end of the day, I'll tell you that no one got paid.

我当时想，哦，我真的很想看看那件事，但最终，我会告诉你，没有人得到报酬。

I got my phone back, but it's wonderful.

我拿回了手机，但它太棒了。

The amount of work that you can get done when that thing is out of the room.

当那个东西离开房间时你可以完成的工作量。

I mean, it's.

我的意思是，是的。

My, it's my superpower, right.

天哪，这就是我的超能力，对吧。

I don't work that hard in the sense that I don't do long hours.

我工作并没有那么努力，因为我工作时间不长。

Like I'm not constitutionally suited for long hours.

就像我天生不适合长时间工作一样。

This was never my thing.

这从来都不是我的事。

My brain tires.

我的大脑疲倦了。

Right.

正确的。

I mean, I'm good for 4, 4.5, good hours a day of actually producing good stuff with my brain.

我的意思是，我每天有 4、4.5 小时的时间用我的大脑实际创造出好东西。

Probably max.

大概最大。

But, you know, I don't use my phone that much.

但是，你知道，我不经常使用手机。

I don't use the internet that much and I prioritize it and a lot just gets done.

我不经常使用互联网，但我会优先考虑它，很多事情就完成了。

It just sort of piles up over time.

它只是随着时间的推移而堆积起来。

You know, and there's this sense of like, you must be burning the midnight oil and you have all these things going on.

你知道，有一种感觉，你一定是在开夜车，而所有这些事情都在发生。

But again, people, I think, underestimate and it's not the, they underestimate the impact of this.

但我认为，人们再次低估了这一点的影响，而不是他们低估了这一影响。

It's not just the, the accumulation of time you spend looking on your phone, it's also this network switching cost, right?

这不仅仅是你花在手机上的时间的积累，还有网络切换成本，对吗？

Because like the phone is very good at inducing a network switch.

因为电话非常擅长引发网络切换。

And that's an expensive time consuming energy consuming neuronal operation.

这是一项昂贵、耗时、耗能的神经元操作。

I'm gonna switch my focus of attention from this to that.

我要把我的注意力从这个转移到那个。

Like we can't do that in two seconds, right?

就像我们不能在两秒钟内做到这一点，对吧？

That's a hard process.

这是一个艰难的过程。

It takes a while.

这需要一段时间。

It's why when you sit down to work on something really hard, you have that feeling of for the 1st 15 minutes.

这就是为什么当你坐下来做一些非常困难的事情时，你会在前 15 分钟有这种感觉。

This is terrible, you know, and then after like 15 or 20 minutes, you sort of get into the groove.

你知道，这太可怕了，然后大约 15 或 20 分钟后，你就进入了最佳状态。

I always assumed the part of what's going on is it takes a while for your brain to really start marshaling.

我一直认为正在发生的事情的一部分是你的大脑需要一段时间才能真正开始编组。

Ok.

好的。

So what semantic networks do?

那么语义网络有什么作用呢？

We need to start activating here?

我们需要从这里开始激活吗？

Oh, we don't need this, inhibit this.

哦，我们不需要这个，抑制这个。

We're not doing that anymore.

我们不再这样做了。

It takes a while.

这需要一段时间。

So what happens then when you have a lot of these quick checks to Social Media, you're jumping in on email back and forth is you have this disaster catastrophic pile up of aborted task switches happening, right?

那么，当您对社交媒体进行大量快速检查时，您会来回查看电子邮件，那么会发生什么，您会发生灾难性的中止任务切换堆积，对吗？

And so it's not just the total time you're looking at, let's say email or Social Media, it's the 15 minute window.

因此，这不仅仅是您查看电子邮件或社交媒体的总时间，而是 15 分钟的窗口。

You have to add around each of those checks in which you have this cognitive disorder that really adds up.

你必须在每一项检查中添加你患有这种认知障碍的检查，这些检查确实会增加。

And then you realize, oh, there was no time during my day in which I was more than 15 minutes away from looking at something that induced a network switch.

然后你就会意识到，哦，我一天中没有任何时间会花超过 15 分钟的时间去查看引起网络切换的东西。

The the data I like to cite which was looking at email and slack checks and knowledge workers.

我喜欢引用的数据是关于电子邮件、宽松检查和知识工作者的。

This came from rescue time.

这是救援时的事。

The software company, the median average interval between checks was five minutes.

该软件公司的检查之间的平均间隔时间为五分钟。

It's the median and the mode was one minute in this data set.

这是该数据集中的中位数，众数是一分钟。

So it was like we are, we are checking all the time.

所以就像我们一样，我们一直在检查。

That means you were never in a state then in your day where you don't have a confused cognitive space where you don't have partially, you were switching to this task, but then you switch back to this task before that finish.

这意味着你从来没有处于这样一种状态：你没有一个混乱的认知空间，你没有部分地切换到这个任务，但然后你在完成之前切换回这个任务。

But before you could fully lock it on this task, you look back over here.

但在你完全锁定这项任务之前，你先回顾一下这里。

And so you're spending your entire day in the state of cognitive disorder which is going to be reduced cognitive output, right?

所以你一整天都处于认知障碍的状态，这会减少认知输出，对吗？

So you get rid of that.

所以你摆脱它。

I mean, I always say like one of my advantages is not that I'm doing anything smarter.

我的意思是，我总是说我的优势之一并不是我做得更聪明。

I'm just avoiding sometimes the dumb thing just holding, slowing other people down.

有时我只是避免愚蠢的事情，只是坚持，减慢其他人的速度。

You get rid of that and you feel like you're on the world's best neurotropic or something like this, like, oh, I'm just doing this thing and I'm doing pretty well now I'm done.

当你摆脱它时，你会感觉自己正在服用世界上最好的神经营养剂或类似的药物，就像，哦，我只是在做这件事，现在我做得很好，我已经完成了。

You know why this didn't even take that long.

你知道为什么这甚至没有花那么长时间。

So, I mean, I, I think people underestimate what's going on here.

所以，我的意思是，我认为人们低估了这里发生的事情。

I'd like to take a quick break to acknowledge our sponsor.

我想稍微休息一下以感谢我们的赞助商。

Element.

元素。

Elements is an electrolyte drink that has everything you need and nothing you don't.

Elements 是一种电解质饮料，拥有您需要的一切，没有您不需要的东西。

That means zero sugar and the appropriate ratios of the electrolytes, sodium magnesium and potassium.

这意味着零糖和电解质、钠、镁和钾的适当比例。

And that correct ratio of electrolytes is extremely important because every cell in your body, but especially your nerve cells, your nerves, neurons relies on electrolytes in order to function properly.

电解质的正确比例非常重要，因为你体内的每个细胞，尤其是你的神经细胞、你的神经、神经元都依赖电解质才能正常运作。

So when you're well hydrated and you have the appropriate amount of electrolytes in your system, your mental functioning and your physical functioning is improved.

因此，当您水分充足并且系统中有适量的电解质时，您的心理功能和身体功能都会得到改善。

I drink one packet of element dissolved in about 16 to 32 ounces of water when I wake up in the morning as well as while I exercise.

当我早上醒来以及运动时，我会喝一包溶解在大约 16 至 32 盎司水中的元素。

And if I sweat a lot during that exercise, I often will drink a third element packet dissolved in about 32 ounces of water.

如果我在锻炼过程中大量出汗，我通常会喝溶解在约 32 盎司水中的第三元素包。

After I exercise, element comes in a variety of different flavors, all of which I find really tasty.

我运动后，元素有各种不同的口味，我觉得都很好吃。

I like the citrus.

我喜欢柑橘。

I like the watermelon I like the raspberry.

我喜欢西瓜，我喜欢覆盆子。

Frankly.

坦白说。

I can't pick just one.

我不能只选一个。

It also comes in chocolate and chocolate mint, which I find tastes best if they are put into water dissolved and then heated up.

它还提供巧克力和巧克力薄荷，我发现将它们放入水中溶解然后加热味道最好。

I tend to do that in the winter months because of course, you don't just need hydration on hot days and in the summer and spring months.

我倾向于在冬季这样做，因为当然，你不仅仅需要在炎热的日子以及夏季和春季补充水分。

But also in the winter when the temperatures are cold and the environment tends to be dry.

但在冬季，气温寒冷，环境往往干燥。

If you'd like to try element, you can go to drink Element spelled lmnt.com/Huberman to try a free sample pack again.

如果您想尝试element，您可以去喝 Element 拼写为 lmnt.com/Huberman 再次尝试免费样品包。

That's drink element.com/Huberman.

这就是饮料 element.com/Huberman。

Yeah.

是的。

Would like to drill into the concept of context and Task Switching a bit more.

想要深入了解上下文和任务切换的概念。

I do think that the brain has something akin to a transmission system where, you know, for people that drive and have driven, you know, the, the amount of energy that needs to be used in order to accelerate a vehicle to get up to a, you know, a higher gear.

我确实认为大脑有类似于传动系统的东西，对于开车和已经开车的人来说，需要使用多少能量才能加速车辆达到更高的档位。

It's very different than the, equal amount of increase in speed at a given gear.

这与给定档位下等量的速度增加有很大不同。

Right?

正确的？

So it's sort of the, this is, you hear this if you're not familiar with trans emission.

所以，如果你不熟悉传输发射，你就会听到这个。

So it sounds like, it sounds as if there's, it's more facile at, at higher speeds.

所以听起来，听起来好像有，在更高的速度下更容易。

Well, how could it be that you're burning less fuel at a higher speed?

那么，为什么你以更高的速度燃烧更少的燃料呢？

It's not exactly that way.

事实并非如此。

But, but I think the brain has these sort of transmission systems and what you're describing with, people switching back and forth and checking email and phone, et cetera and back to the work.

但是，但我认为大脑有这种传输系统，就像你所描述的那样，人们来回切换并检查电子邮件和电话等等，然后返回工作。

That should be at hand is sort of akin to going up and down the, the gear system constantly trying to arrive at a given destination and sure you might arrive, but you're going to burn far more fuel.

这应该有点类似于上下移动，齿轮系统不断地尝试到达给定的目的地，并且确定你可能会到达，但你会燃烧更多的燃料。

It's the least efficient way to go about it.

这是效率最低的方法。

You want to get into that deep groove.

你想进入那个深渊。

And I think when we hear about flow, I feel like at least for me that's the sort of notion of flow that I'm looking for dropping into that deep groove.

我认为，当我们听到心流时，我觉得至少对我来说，这就是我正在寻找的那种心流概念。

Even if there's some friction within that groove of the, the challenge of the work that I'm doing, it's about not thinking about anything else.

即使我正在做的工作的挑战中存在一些摩擦，但也不要考虑其他任何事情。

It's really about focus, right?

这确实与焦点有关，对吧？

And the word flow is just a wonderfully attractive word that I think gives us the, the false impression that we can just drop into things like a square way function, sit down pen and paper go and there's no possible way that neural circuits could work that way.

我认为“流”这个词是一个非常有吸引力的词，它给我们带来了一种错误的印象，即我们可以直接投入到诸如方形函数之类的东西中，坐下来笔和纸，神经回路不可能以这种方式工作。

No, let's invent a term.

不，让我们发明一个术语。

And I, you tell me the term makes sense.

而我，你告诉我这个词是有道理的。

I'm in on the fly.

我正在赶路。

But neuro semantic coherence, this is going to be my alternative term for flow when you're working on something hard.

但是神经语义连贯性，当你在做困难的事情时，这将是我对心流的替代术语。

It's not that you're in an actual flow state where you lose track of what you're doing, you're concentrating really hard.

这并不是说你处于真正的心流状态，你忘记了自己在做什么，而是你非常集中注意力。

But I'm, I'm why I'm saying neuro semantic coherence is you get to this place where the sort of relevant semantic neural networks are all, those that are activated are all relevant to what you're doing.

但我，我为什么说神经语义一致性是你到达了所有相关语义神经网络的地方，那些被激活的神经网络都与你正在做的事情相关。

And you've over time inhibited most of the unrelated networks that were fired up before.

随着时间的推移，你已经抑制了之前启动的大多数不相关的网络。

And so you get in this sense of it's hard, maybe I'm not losing track of time, but like I'm all focused on this, you know, I'm grappling with the, the, the bear here, the, the Math Equation, the, the book chapter, whatever it is.

所以你会感觉到这很难，也许我没有忘记时间，但就像我全神贯注于这个，你知道，我正在努力解决这里的熊，数学方程，书本章节，无论它是什么。

And so it's something different than flow, but it's also different than Linda Stone had the term partial continuous attention, which is what you're that cognitive disaster of I'm constantly network, switching back and forth.

所以它与心流不同，但它也不同于琳达·斯通（Linda Stone）所说的“部分持续注意力”，这就是我不断地网络、来回切换的认知灾难。

So we'll call it neuro semantic coherence.

所以我们称之为神经语义一致性。

I gotta coin that term.

我得创造这个词。

Because it's you have this coherence of the semantic neural networks on what you're doing.

因为正是你的语义神经网络对你正在做的事情具有这种一致性。

And that's the feeling of I'm getting after this hard problem and it might be really hard to do.

这就是我正在解决这个难题的感觉，而且可能真的很难做到。

I mean, I know the feeling of trying to solve a math proof for me, for example, could be so difficult because I mean, what does it actually feel like in your head when you're solving a math proof?

我的意思是，例如，我知道尝试为我解决数学证明的感觉可能会非常困难，因为我的意思是，当您解决数学证明时，您的脑海中实际上感觉如何？

It's a lot of you hold this here and then you try to get to the next step by doing this and it doesn't work, but you have to keep holding this here, which takes a lot of concentration.

很多人都按住这个，然后你试图通过这样做来进入下一步，但它不起作用，但你必须继续按住这个，这需要大量的注意力。

Ok?

好的？

Let me try this.

让我试试这个。

That didn't work either, but this looked promising.

这也不起作用，但这看起来很有希望。

Ok?

好的？

So now I need to go back and in my mind, I update the setup and now let me try this.

所以现在我需要回去并在脑海中更新设置，现在让我尝试一下。

So it's a lot of holding things in your working memory and keeping them loaded while you try an extension and then evaluating how that worked without.

因此，在尝试扩展时，需要将大量内容保留在工作记忆中并保持加载状态，然后评估没有扩展时的效果。

And so it, it requires you just internal concentration which isn't pleasant, but in neuro semantic coherence, it's all this happening in your world, you know, is that in depth proof?

所以，它需要你集中注意力，这并不令人愉快，但在神经语义连贯性方面，这一切都发生在你的世界里，你知道，这是深度证明吗？

So maybe that's what we should be pitching.

所以也许这就是我们应该推销的。

What people should be looking for is yeah, forget flow.

人们应该寻找的是，忘记流量。

But also remember like there's a default where you're like the rescue time, data set, participants, checking email once every five minutes.

但还要记住，有一个默认设置，您可以设置救援时间、数据集、参与者、每五分钟检查一次电子邮件。

That's cognitive nonsense.

这是认知上的废话。

That's crazy.

太疯狂了。

That's like you're trying to, you know, play football and you're covering over one of your eyes and wearing like a £50 rucksack on.

这就像你想踢足球，但你却遮住了一只眼睛，背着一个 50 英镑的背包。

You're just like handicapping your abilities here for no reason, right?

你就等于无缘无故地限制了你的能力吧？

So what's in between is this idea?

那么这个想法的中间是什么？

And that requires focus, you know, our cars deep.

这需要专注，你知道，我们的汽车深入。

Work, you know, or playing football and then every three downs or so running into the stands and having a conversation, trying to work out something challenging with your spouse or whatever and then going back and trying to it's a totally different play set.

工作，你知道，或者踢足球，然后每隔三场比赛左右跑到看台上交谈，尝试与你的配偶或其他人一起解决一些具有挑战性的事情，然后回去尝试这是一个完全不同的游戏设置。

Right.

正确的。

At risk of throwing too, too many analogies and, and stories.

也有抛出太多类比和故事的风险。

I'll just briefly say I went and saw the, the play in New York with my sister this year.

我简单地说一下，今年我和姐姐一起去纽约看了这部戏。

I think it was Harry Potter and The Cursed Child or something like that.

我认为是《哈利·波特与被诅咒的孩子》之类的。

I didn't really enjoy the play that much but the set stuff was amazing and they had this magic library I think is very, very relevant here where essentially the book that you open has a certain topic.

我不太喜欢这部剧，但布景很棒，他们有一个魔法图书馆，我认为这与这里非常非常相关，基本上你打开的书有一个特定的主题。

I don't know, maybe it spells or something.

我不知道，也许是咒语什么的。

It's Harry Potter again.

又是哈利·波特。

Fun show, but great set stuff.

表演很有趣，但布景很棒。

Didn't, didn't really resonate with me too much in any event.

无论如何，并没有真正引起我太多共鸣。

And then the books around it change their topic that but are related to that central book.

然后围绕它的书改变了他们的主题，但与那本中心书相关。

And then if you look at one particular thing, like maybe it's potions or something, I'm making this up and then all of a sudden the, the, the books, the books around it change, they become either more specific.

然后，如果你看一件特定的事情，比如可能是魔药什么的，我正在编造这个，然后突然之间，围绕它的书籍发生了变化，它们变得更加具体。

There might be a, a distant but related idea that could lend itself to creativity.

可能有一个遥远但相关的想法可以激发创造力。

So sort of a, that's the way the brain works in cognition is that we get into a frame of, of a certain discussion or a certain theme and, and the, and the, the books on the shelf change according to their relatedness based on memory of past what's going on now and plans for the future, I think anytime we look at we change context and we look at, you know, a raccoon video on Instagram where our, our calendar and oh, there's that thing, the books become very scattered.

所以，这就是大脑在认知中的工作方式，我们进入某个讨论或某个主题的框架，书架上的书根据对过去现在发生的事情的记忆和对未来的计划的相关性而变化，我想任何时候我们看我们都会改变背景，我们在Instagram上看浣熊视频，我们的日历，哦，还有那个东西，书变得非常分散。

So when we return to it, there's a lot more friction, a lot more work or neural, neural energy required to get back into that this narrow states of cognition.

因此，当我们回到它时，需要更多的摩擦、更多的工作或神经、神经能量才能回到这种狭隘的认知状态。

Does that exactly explain sort of my experience and the way I think about it?

这是否准确地解释了我的经历和我的思考方式？

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah, because you're, it takes time to, to load up the, the sort of relevant secondary and tertiary semantic ideas and now they're there, it's like you can pull from them and then as you shift, you have to sort of shift this whole thing around that takes a lot of concentration.

是的，因为你需要时间来加载相关的二级和三级语义思想，现在它们就在那里，就像你可以从中提取，然后当你转移时，你必须转移整个事情，这需要大量的注意力。

I mean, I, I wrote this, this article once that got me a little bit of trouble, not trouble but mild trouble.

我的意思是，我，我写过这篇文章，曾经给我带来了一点麻烦，不是麻烦，而是轻微的麻烦。

But it was, it was called for the Chronicle Of Higher Education.

但确实如此，它被称为《高等教育纪事报》。

And the title they gave it was as email.

他们给它起的标题是电子邮件。

Making professors stupid, which wasn't my title.

让教授变得愚蠢，这不是我的头衔。

You basically called Every, every one of your colleagues stupid.

你基本上称你的每一位同事都是愚蠢的。

Email.

电子邮件。

The dean at the time did call me in for lunch.

当时的院长确实叫我去吃午饭。

But actually he was, here's the thing.

但实际上他是，事情是这样的。

He was like, hey, this is real.

他说，嘿，这是真的。

I agree with this.

我同意这一点。

But what I was arguing actually in that article essentially was what do we do at a university?

但我在那篇文章中实际上争论的本质是我们在大学做什么？

Is partially what we're supposed to be doing is trying to teach what the life of the mind is and how that works.

我们应该做的部分工作是尝试教导心灵的生活是什么以及它是如何运作的。

And we've kind of forgotten that.

我们有点忘记了这一点。

So why we should maybe think about like at universities, we need to be explicitly not just teaching how to think, but also modeling the life of the mind at the, at the highest level.

那么，为什么我们应该像在大学一样思考，我们不仅需要明确地教授如何思考，而且还要在最高水平上模拟心灵的生活。

And so this idea that we just allow the, the professor Sari to be drowned in emails and tasks and be as distracted.

因此，我们的想法是，我们只是允许萨里教授淹没在电子邮件和任务中，并且分心。

You know, it's the main war that every research professor has is how do I, how do I fight the admin overload until I become famous enough to get an assistant?

你知道，每个研究教授面临的主要战争是我如何、如何对抗管理超载，直到我变得足够出名并获得助理？

Right?

正确的？

Like this is the big problem and I was making this proposal of university should be the citadels of concentration.

就像这是一个大问题，我建议大学应该成为集中的堡垒。

I said if you want to get the best academics in the world to university, just tell them here's at the top of our contract, you will not be assigned an email address.

我说如果你想让世界上最好的学者进入大学，只要告诉他们这是我们合同的顶部，你不会被分配一个电子邮件地址。

Like you're gonna get Nobel Laureates coming from, you know, all over the country to come to this place.

就像你会吸引来自全国各地的诺贝尔奖获得者来到这个地方一样。

And so I was making this argument, we should think a lot more about thinking, we should talk more about it, we should model it exactly the type of things you're talking about.

所以我提出这个论点，我们应该更多地思考思考，我们应该更多地谈论它，我们应该按照你正在谈论的事物类型对其进行建模。

But we don't, it's much more content focused, but really this should be something more that we, we get into specifically, like this is how you actually use the mind to produce innovative interesting high value new cognitive artifacts.

但我们没有，它更注重内容，但实际上这应该是我们专门研究的东西，就像这就是你如何实际使用思维来产生创新有趣的高价值的新认知制品。

This is a very hard thing we're asking you to do.

这是我们要求您做的一件非常困难的事情。

But you can apprentice here because this is what we do and we've mastered, we're gonna teach you how to do it.

但你可以在这里当学徒，因为这就是我们所做的，而且我们已经掌握了，我们会教你如何去做。

But we never have that sort of meta conversation.

但我们从来没有进行过那种元对话。

A sort of meta cognition conversation.

一种元认知对话。

I've always thought that'd be important.

我一直认为这很重要。

I think you'd have much better outcomes if that's part of what you learned at the university was how to take the thing in your head and really put it to work, you know, really extract out of it as capabilities.

我认为，如果你在大学学到的一部分内容是如何将头脑中的想法付诸实践，你知道，真正从中提取出能力，那么你会得到更好的结果。

Or even high school or even elementary school level.

甚至高中甚至小学水平。

I agree.

我同意。

Now, you have kids?

现在，你有孩子了吗？

Do they have smartphones?

他们有智能手机吗？

No?

不？

Yeah.

是的。

How do they feel about that?

他们对此有何感想？

Well, I mean, they're not, they're not old enough yet that it's a, it's a real problem.

嗯，我的意思是，他们还没有，他们还不够老，这确实是一个问题。

But they're, they're not going to be happy with me, probably soon hate me.

但他们不会对我感到满意，可能很快就会恨我。

Now, love me later, as my mother used.

现在，以后再爱我吧，就像我母亲那样。

To say, basically because I, you know, I'm, I'm convinced having spent some time thinking about this, writing about this, doing some journalism on this, talking to a lot of the experts that, like, I think where we're going to end up where all the, the arrows from the, the relevant social psych research, which I've been following this research since you know, 2017, this is 2017 is roughly when you see the first warning signs going up, that we need to worry about the potential mental health impacts of these tools, especially Social Media, smartphones on young people.

基本上是因为我，你知道，我确信我花了一些时间思考这个问题，写了这个，做了一些新闻报道，与很多专家交谈，比如，我认为我们最终会走向哪里，所有相关的社会心理学研究的箭头，自从你知道，2017 年以来我一直在关注这项研究，这就是 2017 年，大约是你看到第一个警告信号出现的时候，我们需要担心这些工具，尤其是社交媒体、智能手机对年轻人的潜在心理健康影响。

And I, you can track this right?

而我，你能追踪到这个吗？

And I have a talk, I actually gave up my kids school.

我有一个谈话，我实际上放弃了我孩子的学校。

They're not happy about this where I tracked how this research evolved and you know, like any literatures, it's contentious at first.

他们对此并不满意，因为我跟踪了这​​项研究的进展，你知道，就像任何文献一样，它一开始是有争议的。

And then you see, you, we begin to see conciliate between different lines of evidence.

然后你看，我们开始看到不同证据之间的和解。

And I think we're where everything now in the last couple of years is starting to come together.

我认为过去几年里一切都开始融合在一起。

This idea of, we don't really know if this is bad or not.

这个想法，我们真的不知道这是否不好。

I think that's just an old take, the researchers move past that.

我认为这只是一个古老的观点，研究人员已经超越了这一点。

And I think where we're, we're, we're landing on is unrestricted internet.

我认为我们现在、我们、我们即将登陆的是不受限制的互联网。

Use pre puberty is risky and like the new standard is gonna be post puberty is probably the right time to be given a, a device that gives you unrestricted access.

在青春期前使用是有风险的，就像新标准将在青春期后一样，青春期后可能是获得一个可以不受限制地访问的设备的最佳时机。

We're talking like 16 is probably the appropriate age.

我们说 16 岁可能是合适的年龄。

So this does not make me popular at the middle school where my son, my oldest son's about to go.

所以这并不会让我在我儿子、我大儿子即将就读的中学里受欢迎。

I think in two or three years that's just gonna be common sense that this is the direction I see the research literature and the advocacy going.

我认为在两三年内，这将成为常识，这就是我所看到的研究文献和倡导的方向。

And I think there's a solid ground for this.

我认为这是有坚实基础的。

Because you're a computer scientist, I can ask this question.

因为你是一名计算机科学家，所以我可以问这个问题。

What about video games?

那么电子游戏呢？

I'm not a big consumer of video games.

我不是电子游戏的大消费者。

It's been years since I've played one, in fact.

事实上，我已经好几年没有玩过这款游戏了。

But video games are so very different than smartphones and, and other technologies because they seem to put, at least the kids I've observed playing them and adults into a very narrow trench of attention.

但视频游戏与智能手机和其他技术有很大不同，因为它们似乎将至少我观察到的玩游戏的孩子和成年人的注意力集中在一个非常狭窄的范围内。

I mean, there, there are definitely issues with it.

我的意思是，它肯定存在问题。

I mean, look, I'm not a social psychologist, I just sort of play one in my articles but, but I've, I've looked into this literature a lot.

我的意思是，你看，我不是社会心理学家，我只是在我的文章中扮演了一个角色，但是，我已经研究过很多这些文献了。

There's a bit of a gender breakdown that has a lot of overlaps where when they're looking at potential harms of these technologies, young adolescents, right?

当他们考虑这些技术的潜在危害时，有一些性别细分有很多重叠，年轻的青少年，对吧？

Pre adolescent, young adolescents, you tend to see Social Media to be more signal for cognitive distress for young women and girls in the video games to actually be the bigger culprit for young men and boys, right?

在青春期前，年轻的青少年，你倾向于认为社交媒体更多地表明电子游戏中年轻女性和女孩的认知困扰，而实际上是年轻男性和男孩的更大罪魁祸首，对吧？

There is a bit of a difference here because with the Social Media impact the content of what's happening matters in this picture, right?

这里有一点不同，因为随着社交媒体的影响，这张图片中正在发生的事情的内容很重要，对吗？

So, so what I'm seeing the engagement I'm having, how this impacts my social life.

那么，我所看到的参与度，这对我的社交生活有何影响。

This is part of the mental distress with video games.

这是电子游戏带来的精神困扰的一部分。

It seems to be more an impact of just disharmonious passion and obsession just the time it takes, right?

似乎更多的是不和谐的激情和痴迷所带来的影响，只是需要时间，对吗？

Because the games can be incredibly addictive.

因为游戏非常容易让人上瘾。

So the problem that young men are having are just, they're playing it all the time that I'm staying up late because I have an iPad in my room and I'm 14 and I'm gonna play Fortnite until three in the morning because my brain cannot handle like what you're, what you're giving me here.

所以年轻人面临的问题是，他们一直在玩《堡垒之夜》，让我熬夜，因为我房间里有一台 iPad，我 14 岁了，我要玩《堡垒之夜》到凌晨三点，因为我的大脑无法像你一样处理你在这里给我的东西。

Right.

正确的。

So it's less of a, a content concern than it is just a time concern, right?

所以与其说是内容问题，不如说是时间问题，对吧？

That seems more solvable to me.

这对我来说似乎更容易解决。

You know, like my solution with my own kids, I don't mind video games.

你知道，就像我对自己孩子的解决方案一样，我不介意电子游戏。

I'm a computer scientist but I said nothing that's online, right?

我是一名计算机科学家，但我没有在网上说过任何话，对吗？

Nothing that was free because if it was free, that means their business model involves getting you to play it all the time so you can upcharge or whatever.

没有什么是免费的，因为如果它是免费的，那就意味着他们的商业模式包括让你一直玩它，这样你就可以收取费用或其他什么。

They have Nintendo switches like I like Nintendo, OK.

他们有任天堂开关，就像我喜欢任天堂一样，好吧。

Nintendo switch.

任天堂开关。

Here's a $60 Zelda game that someone spent five years making or whatever.

这是一款价值 60 美元的《塞尔达》游戏，有人花了五年时间制作的。

You can only play those games so long at a time before, you know, you're tired, you come back to it.

你一次只能玩这些游戏很长时间，然后你知道，你累了，你就会回到它。

They don't have an addictive response to it.

他们对此没有上瘾的反应。

If they get an iPad with a game on it, they'll just like play that till their eyes bleed because those are meant to be to be addictive.

如果他们拥有一台带有游戏的 iPad，他们就会喜欢玩游戏，直到眼睛流血，因为这些游戏注定会让人上瘾。

So I'm wary about video games but there it's all just a usage game.

所以我对电子游戏持谨慎态度，但它只是一个使用游戏。

So you stick away from the more addictive games.

所以你会远离更容易上瘾的游戏。

It's a much easier problem to solve, I think, than the Social Media, the Social Media issue.

我认为，这是一个比社交媒体、社交媒体问题更容易解决的问题。

Earlier you talked about books?

之前你们谈到过书吗？

I still read, hardcover and paperback books.

我仍然阅读精装和平装书。

What are your thoughts on audio books and learning by way of, audio book, versus paper in front of you?

与您面前的纸质书相比，您对有声读物和通过有声读物进行学习有何看法？

Flipping a physical device or Kindles?

翻转物理设备或 Kindle？

I don't know if there's any real research on this.

不知道有没有这方面的实际研究。

I've seen a little bit but I'm curious what, what you've encountered and what your thoughts are as well.

我看到了一些，但我很好奇你遇到了什么以及你的想法是什么。

You could speculate.

你可以推测。

Yeah.

是的。

I mean, I, I, I'll tell you personally, I can only do fiction and audio books.

我的意思是，我，我，我亲自告诉你，我只能写小说和有声读物。

Right.

正确的。

Because when I'm in a nonfiction experience, I'm just very used to constantly looking for connections and ideas, you know, and so I have to be able to slow down and then speed up and then go back to something I just read.

因为当我处于非小说类阅读体验中时，我非常习惯于不断寻找联系和想法，所以我必须能够放慢速度，然后加快速度，然后回到我刚刚读过的东西。

So I really have a distressing experience trying to listen to nonfiction, audiobooks.

所以我在尝试听非小说类有声读物时确实有过一段痛苦的经历。

Fiction's fine.

小说还好啊

That's great.

那太棒了。

We'll put a thriller on a, you know, audible, great.

我们将制作一部惊悚片，你知道，是有声的，非常棒。

I'll, you know, I'll listen to it and I think some of this might be particular to my, my engagement with books, which is, you know, I'm a writer and a thinker so I'm constantly looking for ideas and so I might have a different engagement with a nonfiction book and someone, you know, just listening to one of my books.

我会，你知道，我会听它，我认为其中一些可能是我对书籍的特殊参与，也就是说，你知道，我是一名作家和思想家，所以我不断地寻找想法，所以我可能会对一本非小说类书籍有不同的参与，而某人，你知道，只是听我的一本书。

But I can only do fiction on audio.

但我只能用音频来写小说。

That makes sense.

这是有道理的。

Thinking about what works for me.

思考什么对我有用。

What doesn't it?

什么不呢？

I agree.

我同意。

I, I love stories and fiction by, by audio book, ideally consumed on a long drive or a hike.

我，我喜欢有声读物的故事和小说，最适合在长途驾驶或徒步旅行时阅读。

But nonfiction requires that I take notes and see things in there kind of respective spatial layout.

但非小说类作品要求我记笔记并观察各自空间布局中的事物。

And yeah.

是的。

In your most recent book, you describe this concept of pseudo productivity is pseudo productivity a general term to refer to some of the things we've already talked about this Task Switching, context switching or pseudo productivity is something that includes other categories of, of limiting ourselves as well.

在你最近的书中，你描述了伪生产力的概念，伪生产力是一个通用术语，指的是我们已经讨论过的一些事情，任务切换、上下文切换或伪生产力也包括其他类别的限制我们自己的东西。

I mean, I think it's more specific than that, right?

我的意思是，我认为它比这更具体，对吧？

So it, it to me pseudo productivity was the answer that we came up with a knowledge work to a real dilemma which is, that's a sector, you know, using your brain primarily to create value, that's a sector that emerged as a major part of the economy in roughly the mid 20th century.

所以，对我来说，伪生产力是我们针对真正困境提出的知识工作的答案，这是一个部门，你知道，主要利用你的大脑来创造价值，这个部门在大约 20 世纪中叶成为经济的主要部分。

When that emerged, all the definitions of productivity that we had were inspired from agriculture and industry, right?

当它出现时，我们对生产力的所有定义都受到农业和工业的启发，对吗？

So, so in agriculture, we can have ratios bushels of corn per whatever acres of land under cultivation and industrial manufacturing, we have ratios model T per input labor hour.

因此，在农业中，我们可以得到每英亩耕地的玉米蒲式耳比率，以及工业制造中的每投入劳动时间的比率模型 T。

So you could just measure these things.

所以你可以只测量这些东西。

We also had clearly defined systems of production.

我们还有明确定义的生产系统。

So you could then say if I change this about the system of production.

所以你可以说我是否改变生产系统。

What happens to this number and you could do gradient descent, right?

这个数字会发生什么，你可以进行梯度下降，对吗？

Ok.

好的。

I do this.

我做这个。

That number goes down.

这个数字正在下降。

Let's not do that.

我们不要那样做。

If I make this change, it goes up.

如果我做出这个改变，它就会上升。

That's a better way of building it.

这是构建它的更好方法。

Like this was the dominant way of thinking about productivity.

这就是思考生产力的主要方式。

Since basically Adam Smith, the knowledge work arises that doesn't work, right?

由于基本上是亚当·斯密，知识工作的出现是行不通的，对吗？

Because I'm working on whatever five different things it's different than what you were working on.

因为我正在做五件不同的事情，这与你所做的不同。

How I'm managing my work is entirely obfuscated, right?

我如何管理我的工作完全是混乱的，对吧？

In knowledge work, organizational ideas is entirely left up to the individual, how you manage your work and your workload and collaboration, that's like up to you, that's all obfuscated.

在知识工作中，组织理念完全取决于个人，你如何管理你的工作、你的工作量和协作，这取决于你，这一切都被混淆了。

So there's no number to measure, there's no system to improve.

所以没有数字可以衡量，也没有系统可以改进。

So I think it was a real quandary.

所以我认为这是一个真正的困境。

My argument is what essentially the management class came up with the pseudo productivity, which is OK.

我的论点本质上是管理阶层提出的伪生产力，这是可以的。

In the absence of being able to be quantitative about this, we will use visible activity as a proxy for useful effort.

在无法对此进行定量的情况下，我们将使用可见的活动作为有用努力的代理。

So that's it like we see you doing things that's better than not, the more we see you doing, the better I call that pseudo productivity.

所以，就像我们看到你做的事情比不做的事情要好一样，我们看到你做的事情越多，我称之为伪生产力就越好。

And I think that's implicitly how we've been organizing the management of knowledge work labor since the 19 fifties.

我认为这就是我们自 20 世纪 50 年代以来组织知识工作劳动力管理的隐含方式。

And when you say visibility at people doing things that this is the conflating of busyness with actual productivity.

当你说人们做事的可见性时，这是将忙碌与实际生产力混为一谈。

Yes.

是的。

And so the problem came when we had this general way of measuring approximating productive effort, which wasn't very good but whatever, right?

因此，当我们有了这种衡量近似生产性努力的通用方法时，问题就来了，虽然不是很好，但无论如何，对吧？

I mean, I want to see you're at the office and you're doing things.

我的意思是，我想看到你在办公室里做事。

The problem was the front office.

问题出在前台。

It revolution, right?

这是一场革命，对吗？

Because I'm, I'm essentially a techno critic.

因为我本质上是一个技术评论家。

I see everything through the Lens of technology.

我通过技术的镜头看待一切。

In my writing, we got computers, we got networks, we got email, pseudo productivity can't be sustainable in that context.

在我的写作中，我们拥有计算机，我们拥有网络，我们拥有电子邮件，伪生产力在这种情况下无法持续。

Because now with something like email and then later tools like slack, I can demonstrate effort at a very fine grain, right?

因为现在有了电子邮件之类的工具，以及后来的 Slack 之类的工具，我可以在非常细的粒度上展示工作，对吗？

Because I can send an email, respond to this jump onto a slack conversation.

因为我可以发送电子邮件，所以回复此跳转到松弛对话。

I can now do that at a very fine grain level.

我现在可以在非常细的粒度级别上做到这一点。

And essentially everywhere and anywhere all throughout my day, I can be demonstrating labor at home.

基本上在我一天中的任何地方、任何地方，我都可以在家里展示劳动。

I can be demonstrating labor because we have mobile computing, we get the smartphone revolution.

我可以展示劳动力，因为我们拥有移动计算，我们实现了智能手机革命。

So there's, there's now an ability to constantly be demonstrating effort at all points of our day.

所以，现在我们有能力在一天中的各个时刻不断地表现出努力。

And that's where I think the wheels came off the bus, right?

我想这就是公共汽车轮子脱落的地方，对吗？

And, and led to this, this this point that got worse and worse during the early two thousands and hit ahead in the pandemic of a knowledge worker, burnout, knowledge, worker, exhaustion and nihilism of like what's going on with my job like all I do is zoom all day.

而且，导致了这一点，这一点在两千年初期变得越来越糟，并在知识工作者、倦怠、知识、工人、疲惫和虚无主义的流行病中向前发展，就像我的工作中发生的事情一样，我整天所做的就是放大。

What's happening?

发生什么事了？

I think that pseudo productivity plus front office, it revolution.

我认为伪生产力加上前台，这是一场革命。

They did not play nice together.

他们在一起玩得不好。

And you can see this, by the way, if you look, even at productivity books, you see this huge shift that happens early nineties versus early two thousands.

顺便说一句，如果你看一下生产力书籍，你就会看到这一点，你会发现这种巨大的转变发生在九十年代初期，而不是两千年初期。

It's like a completely shift in tone, right?

这就像语气完全转变，对吧？

Early nineties, it's Stephen Covey is very optimistic.

九十年代初，史蒂芬·柯维非常乐观。

It's like how are we going to self actualize and like carefully choose the most meaningful activities to fulfill all of our dreams for all of our roles.

这就像我们如何自我实现，并仔细选择最有意义的活动来实现我们所有角色的所有梦想。

Early two thousands.

早两千。

Now we have email, you have David Allen.

现在我们有电子邮件，你有大卫·艾伦。

It's like, oh my God, we're so overwhelmed with task.

就好像，天哪，我们被任务压垮了。

All we can hope for is like these little moments of Zen in the day.

我们所能希望的就是像一天中这些禅宗的小时刻一样。

If we can just automate how we're just churning through these widgets, at least we can find some cognitive piece.

如果我们能够自动化浏览这些小部件的方式，至少我们可以找到一些认知部分。

What happened in those 10 years was the front office.

这10年发生的事情就是前台。

It revolution.

它是革命。

And now we just felt like we had to constantly be demonstrating that visible effort.

现在我们只是觉得我们必须不断地展示这种可见的努力。

So, you know, I think that's where we got to the problem pseudo productivity plus technology.

所以，你知道，我认为这就是我们遇到伪生产力加技术问题的地方。

Recently, my podcast team was in Australia and my producer and close friend here.

最近，我的播客团队在澳大利亚，我的制作人和亲密朋友也在这里。

Rob Moore instructed all of us to get rid of Social Media on our phones except one guy who would post our weekly episodes announcements.

罗布·摩尔指示我们所有人摆脱手机上的社交媒体，除了一个会发布每周剧集公告的人。

And it was pretty brutal at first and then coming back to Social Media has actually turned out to be more challenging.

一开始是相当残酷的，然后回到社交媒体实际上变得更具挑战性。

You really experience the friction coming back the other way and then one experiences the, the lack of friction and that's where it gets scary.

你确实会体验到摩擦力以另一种方式返回，然后你就会体验到缺乏摩擦力，这就是令人恐惧的地方。

It's, it's so interesting the way that the brain can adapt, the friction, leaving something behind, the friction coming back to it.

大脑适应的方式非常有趣，摩擦，留下一些东西，摩擦又回到它身上。

And I think for people listening to this, I, I raise this because I think of course many people listening are, you know, have work that they really need to focus on.

我认为对于听这个的人来说，我提出这个问题是因为我认为当然很多听的人都有他们真正需要关注的工作。

They may be having issues with productivity and burnout, et cetera.

他们可能会遇到生产力和倦怠等问题。

I think a lot of people use the phone and Social Media because it fills their life.

我认为很多人使用电话和社交媒体是因为它充实了他们的生活。

You know, it provides some enrichment and they aren't necessarily committed to specific projects.

你知道，它提供了一些丰富的内容，而且他们不一定致力于特定的项目。

But I guess through the Lens of the, the, let's just call it the Cal Newport and Lens.

但我想通过镜头，我们就称其为加州纽波特和镜头吧。

One might argue that those people almost certainly have untapped creativity, untapped resources within them that they don't yet know about because they're essentially using that energy elsewhere.

有人可能会说，这些人几乎肯定拥有尚未开发的创造力和未开发的资源，但他们还不知道，因为他们本质上是在其他地方使用这些能量。

Yeah, I mean, I think for a lot of people it's papering over the void.

是的，我的意思是，我认为对很多人来说，它掩盖了空白。

You have this void in your life because there's unmet potential, unmet interest living in misalignment with the things you care about.

你的生活中存在这样的空虚，因为你的潜力、未满足的兴趣与你关心的事情不一致。

Right?

正确的？

I mean, a lot of people, this is the classic sort of catastrophe of life, right?

我的意思是，对很多人来说，这是典型的人生灾难，对吧？

Social Media.

社交媒体。

And there's before this, it was other things, right?

在此之前，还有其他事情，对吗？

There's other intoxicants or other sorts of distractions.

还有其他麻醉品或其他类型的干扰。

It's a way for some people of essentially putting a screen over that like, gaping void and it like, just makes it bearable enough that you can kind of go on with life.

对于一些人来说，这是一种在上面放一个屏幕的方式，比如，张开的虚空之类的，只是让它变得足够可以忍受，让你可以继续生活。

And so it is true.

确实如此。

If you just rip it out, you see the void and that's really difficult.

如果你把它撕下来，你会看到空白，这真的很困难。

Right?

正确的？

I mean, because I, I did this experiment for one of my books, I ran an experiment with 1600 people and they all turned off all their Social Media for 30 days, 30 days.

我的意思是，因为我为我的一本书做了这个实验，我对 1600 人进行了一项实验，他们都关闭了所有社交媒体 30 天，30 天。

30 days, right?

30天吧？

These are young people, old people.

这些人有年轻人，也有老年人。

A whole mix, a whole mix, right?

一个整体的混合，一个整体的混合，对吧？

Not just university students.

不仅仅是大学生。

I recruited them from my, my newsletter readership.

我从我的时事通讯读者群中招募了他们。

So they weren't university students and it wasn't formal research.

所以他们不是大学生，也不是正式的研究。

It was, you know, I put out the call, right?

你知道，是我拨通了电话，对吗？

So this is not randomly sampled, right?

所以这不是随机抽样的，对吗？

But I put out the call and I said here, I'm gonna walk, you walk you through this and then I got a lot of information back.

但我挂断了电话，我在这里说，我要步行，你引导你完成这个，然后我得到了很多信息。

So people reported back how it went and this was like the number one thing I heard was, it's really hard at first, right?

所以人们报告了事情的进展情况，这就像我听到的第一件事是，一开始真的很难，对吧？

And so who are the people that succeeded for 30 days versus those who didn't?

那么，哪些人在 30 天里取得了成功，哪些人没有成功呢？

The ones who didn't succeed?

那些没有成功的人呢？

It tended to just try to white knuckle.

它往往只是试图紧张。

It just be like, I don't like how much I'm using Social Media, I'm just gonna stop because it's bad and I don't want to do a bad thing.

就像，我不喜欢我使用社交媒体的程度，我只是要停止，因为它很糟糕，我不想做坏事。

I'm just gonna like you know, hold on the table with white knuckles.

我只想像你知道的那样，用指关节发白地握住桌子。

They wouldn't make it 30 days.

他们撑不过30天。

The people who did succeed, followed my advice to incredibly aggressively pursue alternatives in those 30 days.

那些成功的人听从了我的建议，在这 30 天内极其积极地寻求替代方案。

So it's like go learn new hobbies, join things right away.

所以这就像去学习新的爱好，立即加入一些事情。

Get like really structured about your day.

让你的一天变得真正有条理。

Get into exercise again, learn how to knit again.

再次锻炼身体，再次学习编织。

A lot of people said, oh, I learned about, I forgot how fun libraries were.

很多人说，哦，我了解了，我忘了图书馆有多有趣。

Like, you can go into this building and like all the books are free and there's there, you could just grab whatever and it's ok if you don't like the book because you didn't have to pay for it.

就像，你可以走进这座大楼，就像所有的书都是免费的，就在那里，你可以随便拿任何东西，如果你不喜欢这本书也没关系，因为你不必付费。

I'm going out with friends again.

我又要和朋友出去玩了

I'm, I'm ok every week, I'm gonna have, you know, we're gonna have drinks with this person and every Thursday morning, I'm gonna go running with this person.

我，我每周都很好，我会，你知道，我们会和这个人一起喝酒，每个星期四早上，我会和这个人一起跑步。

The people who aggressively tried to put in place a more positive alternative through self reflush experimentation.

这些人积极尝试通过自我冲洗实验来制定更积极的替代方案。

They lasted the 30 days and beyond.

他们持续了 30 天甚至更长。

Right?

正确的？

And so then I came to realize like, oh, I see what's happening here is you have these unmet needs, these tools can give you sort of a, a simulacrum of meeting them.

然后我开始意识到，哦，我明白这里发生的事情是你有这些未满足的需求，这些工具可以给你一种满足这些需求的模拟。

I need, I'm a social being.

我需要，我是一个社会人。

I need to be connected to people.

我需要与人建立联系。

Well, I'm texting and like doing comments on Social Media.

嗯，我正在发短信，喜欢在社交媒体上发表评论。

It's sort of touches that a little bit just enough that you don't feel hopelessly lonely, but it's not really fulfilling that.

这种接触足以让你不会感到绝望的孤​​独，但它并不能真正满足你的需求。

I have a need to like, see my intentions made manifest concretely in the world.

我需要喜欢，看到我的意图在世界上具体体现。

Humans want to do this.

人类想要这样做。

Well, I'm, you know, posting these things and people are responding, it's sort of this simulacrum of real creation.

嗯，你知道，我发布这些东西，人们正在回应，这有点像真实创作的拟像。

So it's like kind of satisfying that just enough that it's not just intolerable, right?

所以这就像是一种满足，不仅仅是无法忍受，对吧？

And so what happens?

那么会发生什么呢？

And if you remove that, you have to actually fill those things the right way.

如果你删除它，你必须以正确的方式实际填充这些东西。

So now I'm not socializing on Social Media, but I'm going out of my way to sacrifice time and attention on behalf of other people.

所以现在我不再在社交媒体上进行社交活动，但我会不遗余力地为其他人牺牲时间和注意力。

I'm feeling the social void in the right way.

我以正确的方式感受到了社会的空虚。

Now, I don't really feel like I need to go back.

现在，我真的不觉得我需要回去。

I'm actually build, making my intentions manifest.

我实际上正在建造，使我的意图得以体现。

I'm learning skills and building things.

我正在学习技能并建造东西。

Now, this sort of pseudo construction and collective attention economy of Social Media, I'll post this and you'll like it.

现在，这种社交媒体的伪建设和集体注意力经济，我会发布这个，你会喜欢的。

I'll like this.

我会喜欢这个。

I don't need that anymore to, to fill that void.

我不再需要它来填补那个空白。

So it's like you have to fill the void first.

所以这就像是你必须首先填补空白。

So, so, you know, five years ago, I wrote a book that was about reforming this part of your life.

所以，所以，你知道，五年前，我写了一本关于改革你生活的这一部分的书。

And a lot of the book was had nothing to do with technology but about how to actually just rebuild parts of your life.

这本书的很多内容与技术无关，而是关于如何真正重建生活的一部分。

And on my podcast, honestly, like one of the big topics we talk about, which is crazy that I'm a technologist and I write about trying to find focus in a distracted world is this thing we call the deep life, which is just straight up building a meaningful life 101.

老实说，在我的播客上，就像我们谈论的一个大话题一样，这很疯狂，我是一名技术专家，我写的是试图在分心的世界中找到焦点，这就是我们所说的深度生活，这就是直接构建有意义的生活 101。

And it's like crazy that my podcast is talking about it.

我的播客正在谈论它，这简直太疯狂了。

But on the other hand, it's not because my is the podcast people go to when they're fed up with the digital world.

但另一方面，这并不是因为我的播客是人们厌倦了数字世界时才会去的。

And it turns out if you don't get the analog world working right for you, you need something to avoid starting to that void and, and the digital world will do that well enough.

事实证明，如果你没有让模拟世界适合你，你需要一些东西来避免开始这种空虚，而数字世界会做得足够好。

It's like just good enough to keep life tolerable.

这就像足以让生活过得去。

There's a lot of discussion nowadays about a DH D attention deficit hyperactivity disorder sometimes, minus the H minus the hyperactivity.

现在有很多关于 DH D 注意力缺陷多动障碍的讨论，有时减去 H 减去多动症。

A lot of kids have true clinically diagnosed ad A DH D.

许多孩子都患有真正的临床诊断 AD A DH D。

So we want to be, sensitive to that.

所以我们希望对此保持敏感。

It's a real issue for a lot of people.

对于很多人来说这是一个现实问题。

A lot of adults have true A DH D.

许多成年人都有真正的 A DH D。

But nowadays people talk about a DH D the same way terms like, depression trauma, gas lighting and, et cetera are discussed in, in non clinical territory.

但如今，人们谈论 DH D 的方式与非临床领域讨论抑郁症创伤、煤气灯等术语相同。

O CD O CDC as well.

O CD O CDC 也是如此。

Right.

正确的。

Right.

正确的。

And, and I'm not disparaging that it's just that we, we have sort of a dilution of deeper understanding of what these things really are and aren't, what are your thoughts?

而且，我并不是贬低我们，我们对这些东西到底是什么和不是什么的更深入的理解有点淡化，你的想法是什么？

I realize you're not a psychiatrist, but what are your thoughts on the idea that many people that think they perhaps have true attention issues have either built those attention issues through neuroplasticity into their system, meaning their system probably work nervous system probably worked pretty well to focus.

我知道你不是精神病学家，但你对以下想法有何看法：许多认为自己可能存在真正注意力问题的人要么通过神经可塑性将这些注意力问题构建到他们的系统中，这意味着他们的系统可能会起作用，神经系统可能会很好地集中注意力。

But they gauged in enough Task Switching that the circuits of the brain involved in cognition became optimized for this very distributed cognition as opposed to narrow focused attention.

但他们在足够多的任务切换中进行了测量，发现参与认知的大脑回路针对这种非常分散的认知而不是狭隘的集中注意力进行了优化。

And what are your thoughts about the amount of stimulant use on college campuses and in in adult populations to, to try and overcome this?

您对大学校园和成年人中为了克服这一问题而使用兴奋剂的数量有何看法？

I feel like there's a lot of attempts to use pharmacology to match the level of distraction to try and make that distraction not seem like distraction.

我觉得有很多尝试使用药理学来匹配分心的程度，试图让分心看起来不像是分心。

But, you know, this is a, this is an area I hear a lot about given the nature of the things I cover on the podcast.

但是，你知道，鉴于我在播客中涵盖的内容的性质，这是我经常听到的一个领域。

I think a lot of these issues are phone induced, right?

我认为很多这些问题都是由电话引起的，对吧？

And I, and I think the problem is not solvable as much.

而我，我认为这个问题不太能解决。

You don't need pills, you need a different phone relationship.

你不需要药物，你需要不同的电话关系。

My optimistic hypothesis is again this non clinical difficulty with maintaining attention like in your work or if you're a college student or whatever.

我的乐观假设是，在保持注意力方面存在非临床困难，例如在工作中或如果您是大学生或其他什么。

It's not necessarily representing sort of knock on wood like a wholesale neural rewiring like that.

它不一定代表某种像大规模神经重新布线那样的敲击木头。

I basically rewired my circuits on my brain to be a sort of distributed switching processor.

我基本上将大脑中的电路重新连接成一种分布式交换处理器。

I think most of this is, is persisting in that much more malleable area that gets affected by moderate behavioral addictions, right?

我认为其中大部分是坚持在受中度行为成瘾影响的更具可塑性的领域，对吧？

So the we we have parts of the brain that are part of these like feedback, reward loops that's meant to be malleable, right?

所以我们大脑的某些部分是反馈、奖励循环的一部分，它们应该是可塑的，对吗？

I mean, this is supposed to be so we can have really rapid learning about what's happening in our environment and how we're supposed to respond to it.

我的意思是，这样我们就可以真正快速地了解我们的环境中正在发生的事情以及我们应该如何应对它。

And then this is what gets hijacked when you, you build up these behavioral addictions.

当你建立这些行为成瘾时，这就是被劫持的东西。

And so it's, it's very quick to change.

所以，变化非常快。

But that malleability means you can change it back, right?

但这种可塑性意味着你可以把它改回来，对吗？

So, so II I think this, this drive to, I have to keep checking my email and my phone is again, you build up a moderate behavioral addiction because of like standard reward cues.

所以，我认为，这种驱动力，我必须继续检查我的电子邮件，我的手机再次出现，由于类似的标准奖励线索，你会产生适度的行为成瘾。

And, and that's a part of the brain that you can't, it's difficult, but it's not, your whole brain is now a Social Media brain and that's just the brain you have because you're exposed to this.

而且，这是你无法做到的大脑的一部分，这很困难，但事实并非如此，你的整个大脑现在都是社交媒体大脑，而这正是你所拥有的大脑，因为你接触到了社交媒体。

It's a matter of, you know, getting this stimuli out of your life, doing the same type of training.

你知道，问题在于将这种刺激从你的生活中剔除，进行同样类型的训练。

You would do boredom exposure, like get used to the idea of feeling that drive and not actually doing it.

你会感到无聊，就像习惯了感觉有动力而不是真正去做的想法。

You can work with blocking apps like there's stuff you can do.

您可以使用阻止应用程序，就像您可以做的事情一样。

This is sort of like standard, it's painful, it takes two months and then like you're doing better on it.

这有点像标准，很痛苦，需要两个月的时间，然后就好像你做得更好了。

So I do think we have AAA large stratum of subclinical attention issues that are not representing wholesale neural rewiring, but are like absolutely sort of expected outcomes of working with malleable reward cue circuits in the brain.

所以我确实认为我们有大量的亚临床注意力问题，这些问题并不代表大规模的神经重新布线，而是绝对是与大脑中可延展的奖励提示回路合作的预期结果。

We can fix those just like we can if you know, you're, you're gambling too much or compulsively eating the junk food or something.

我们可以解决这些问题，就像您知道，您，您赌博太多或强迫性地吃垃圾食品或其他东西一样。

We don't say your whole brain got rewired for junk food.

我们并不是说你的整个大脑都因垃圾食品而被重新连接。

It's like, no, you have this, this particular cue cycle that we have to work on.

就像，不，我们必须处理这个特定的提示周期。

So maybe I'm being optimistic there and you know, the brain better, but like it would be extraordinary if in like a 10 year period, right?

所以也许我对此持乐观态度，你知道，大脑会更好，但如果在 10 年内，这将是非凡的，对吗？

Your entire brain somehow got rewired in a way that it couldn't sustain focus anymore.

你的整个大脑不知何故被重新连接，无法再保持注意力。

I totally agree with that statement unless you're a young person and you grew up in a distracted world and your brain optimized as the young brain does for the conditions it's in.

我完全同意这种说法，除非你是一个年轻人，并且你在一个分心的世界中长大，并且你的大脑像年轻人的大脑一样针对其所处的条件进行了优化。

And then I think you have a real issue, which is not to say it can't be rescued through the use of discipline tools, protocols, pharmacology, nutrition, great sleep and if necessary prescription drugs, right?

然后我认为你有一个真正的问题，这并不是说不能通过使用纪律工具、协议、药理学、营养、良好的睡眠以及必要的处方药来挽救它，对吗？

Because there is a case for prescription drugs in certain instances for a DH D and, and as I understand it, you know, anytime people say, wait, aren't those drugs just meth, isn't it just speed?

因为在某些情况下，DH D 需要处方药，而且据我了解，你知道，任何时候人们都会说，等等，这些药物不就是冰毒吗？这不就是速度吗？

Yep.

是的。

They are amphetamines in most cases.

在大多数情况下，它们是安非他明。

And the idea is to increase the deployment of certain neuromodulators.

这个想法是增加某些神经调节剂的部署。

The ones I mentioned before as a means to induce neuroplasticity so that the focus state becomes more of a default state.

我之前提到的那些作为诱导神经可塑性的手段，使焦点状态变得更像是默认状态。

So I think that young people are in trouble.

所以我认为年轻人有麻烦。

I think that we do worry about young people.

我认为我们确实担心年轻人。

I think we've, it's akin to putting them in a kind of a, well, we know this in the visual system.

我认为我们已经，这类似于将它们放入一种，嗯，我们在视觉系统中知道这一点。

If you take an animal or human and you put them into an altered visual environment, the visual system changes and your perception of the visual world is becomes inaccurate.

如果你将动物或人类置于改变的视觉环境中，视觉系统就会发生变化，你对视觉世界的感知就会变得不准确。

And the way I think of this cognitively with respect to attention, the analogy would be, I think we've been for the last 10 years or so, 1015 years, we've been raising kids in a sort of house of fun house mirror things, which is anything but fun where you look at yourself and your legs are shorter than, and your torso is long.

我对注意力的认知方式是这样的，我想我们在过去 10 年左右，1015 年里一直在一个充满有趣的镜子的房子里养育孩子，当你看着自己，你的腿短，而你的躯干长时，这一点也不有趣。

And so everywhere you turn, you're getting a distorted perception and trying to navigate the world through that distorted perception is very, very difficult, you can do it, but it's a lot of extra work.

因此，无论你走到哪里，你都会得到一种扭曲的感知，并试图通过这种扭曲的感知来驾驭世界是非常非常困难的，你可以做到，但这是很多额外的工作。

That's what I feel we've done to young people.

我觉得这就是我们对年轻人所做的。

I'm, I'm very concerned about that as well.

我，我也很担心这个。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

And, and I think, I don't know what your take on this, but like, do you think at the undergraduate level that we have just been not explicitly but just sort of implicitly professors in general, we have been just sort of slowly adapting the difficulty of what we're teaching et cetera because we maybe there's a reduced cognitive focus capacity, which is like the key skill for this sort of very artificial thing of learning, you know, complicated college level work.

而且，我想，我不知道你对此有何看法，但是，你是否认为在本科阶段，我们不是明确的，而是隐含的教授，我们一直在慢慢适应我们所教授的内容的难度等等，因为我们的认知焦点能力可能会降低，这就像这种非常人为的学习的关键技能，你知道，复杂的大学水平的工作。

I think this would be an interesting experiment to find out is have we been implicitly having to sort of simplify things to keep roughly speaking grade distributions where normative we feel comfortable.

我认为这将是一个有趣的实验，要找出我们是否隐含地必须进行某种简化，以保持粗略地说成绩分布在我们感到舒适的规范范围内。

I mean, do we see the signal yet?

我的意思是，我们看到信号了吗？

That's my interest.

这就是我的兴趣。

Do we see the signal yet?

我们看到信号了吗？

If we look back a generation 20 years ago versus now.

如果我们回顾 20 年前的一代人与现在。

I don't know for courses of the sort that I teach or taught until very recently, I still teach, but I was directing the neuroanatomy course and there's a laboratory module.

我不知道我教授或教授的那种课程，直到最近，我仍然在教，但我正在指导神经解剖学课程，并且有一个实验室模块。

So the students dissect brains, they're holding actual human brains.

所以学生们解剖大脑，他们拿着真正的人脑。

That's a real physical contact that cannot be recapitulated digitally, you just can't do it, you can try use VR but it's, it ain't the same.

这是一种真实的身体接触，无法以数字方式重现，你就是做不到，你可以尝试使用 VR，但它是不一样的。

I mean, how would you like it if your neurosurgeon learned on a virtual brain and then it does surgery on a real brain.

我的意思是，如果你的神经外科医生在虚拟大脑上学习，然后在真实的大脑上进行手术，你会怎么样？

No, not, no such thing should happen.

不，不，不应该发生这样的事情。

I think that my experience with this is perhaps most relevant with respect to Social Media where I teach neuroscience and I use a variety of duration of clips, you know, the 92nd real, the, you know, seven minute thing, the 2.5 hour podcast that, you know, we have podcast, solo podcast.

我认为我在这方面的经验可能与社交媒体最相关，我在社交媒体上教授神经科学，我使用各种持续时间的剪辑，你知道，第 92 个真实的，你知道的，七分钟的东西，2.5 小时的播客，你知道，我们有播客，独奏播客。

We have 4.5 hours.

我们有4.5小时。

I don't know how much many people listen, start to finish, but I think having a variety of different durations really helps.

我不知道有多少人从头到尾听，但我认为拥有各种不同的持续时间确实有帮助。

And I'm told by my team, I have a Tik Tok account, although I've never logged on there.

我的团队告诉我，我有一个 Tik Tok 帐户，尽管我从未登录过那里。

You know, I think TikTok represents the extreme of kind of bubble gum level information slash entertainment.

要知道，我认为TikTok代表了一种泡泡糖级别的信息斜杠娱乐的极端。

And they really nailed some, some circuit that can handle information of about 30 to 60 seconds in a format that tickles the brain just right to keep swiping, liking, commenting and sharing.

他们确实设计出了一些电路，可以处理大约 30 到 60 秒的信息，其格式可以让大脑恰到好处地继续滑动、点赞、评论和分享。

And I don't think that's anything like a real understanding or education.

我认为这并不是真正的理解或教育。

I mean, it's, it's nothing like a real understanding or education.

我的意思是，这根本不是真正的理解或教育。

Yeah, I mean TikTok in particular, like I think something, what people get wrong about TikTok is they think that there was a real algorithmic innovation, which is actually not the case.

是的，我特别指的是 TikTok，就像我认为的那样，人们对 TikTok 的误解是他们认为存在真正的算法创新，但实际上并非如此。

Like as far as I understand the machine learning algorithm underneath TikTok is probably like a relatively standard sort of multi arm bandit, you know, intermittent feedback reinforcements algorithm.

据我了解，TikTok 底层的机器学习算法可能就像一种相对标准的多臂强盗，你知道，间歇性反馈强化算法。

All they did is they cleared out all the other noise.

他们所做的就是清除所有其他噪音。

So, you know, if you're Facebook or something like this, you're trying to use algorithms to curate things, but you have all these other legacy structures, you also have to try to satisfy there's friends and, you know, you want to show stuff that your friends like more than other people and there's groups you're joining TikTok just got rid of all the noise.

所以，你知道，如果你是 Facebook 或类似的公司，你会尝试使用算法来策划事物，但你还有所有其他遗留结构，你还必须努力满足朋友的需求，你知道，你想展示你的朋友比其他人更喜欢的东西，而你加入的一些群组刚刚消除了所有噪音。

And so we're just gonna, all we're doing is optimizing watch time.

所以我们要做的就是优化观看时间。

We, we think we don't know, but we think watch time is the main thing that they're, they're optimizing, which we want to optimize it, watch time and everything.

我们认为我们不知道，但我们认为观看时间是他们正在优化的主要内容，我们想要优化它，观看时间和一切。

All these videos all just exist as multidimensional points in this sort of Symantec cloud.

所有这些视频都以多维点的形式存在于这种赛门铁克云中。

And all we're doing is just showing you things and then you swipe another thing, swipe another thing.

我们所做的只是向您展示一些东西，然后您滑动另一个东西，滑动另一个东西。

So when you get rid of all the noise from a machine learning algorithm, it doesn't also have to satisfy that I follow this person on Instagram or this is my friend.

因此，当你消除机器学习算法中的所有噪音时，也不必满足我在 Instagram 上关注这个人或者这是我的朋友的要求。

All I have to do is optimize this one number.

我所要做的就是优化这个数字。

How long did they walk before they swipe?

他们刷卡之前走了多长时间？

It just turns out like, oh, it's really easy.

事实证明，哦，这真的很容易。

Like you do that for a couple hours, you're gonna hone in on these subregions in this massive multidimensional space of stuff that just tickles this particular person's brain, you know, and it's very cybernetic because now I'm the user of TikTok, I'm the content creator.

就像你这样做几个小时一样，你将在这个巨大的多维空间中磨练这些子区域，这些东西只会让这个特定的人的大脑发痒，你知道，这是非常控制论的，因为现在我是 TikTok 的用户，我是内容创建者。

I'm getting immediate feedback.

我立即得到反馈。

What's working, what's not, I really quickly find these particularly rich regions in this sort of cybernetic space.

什么有效，什么无效，我很快就在这种控制论空间中找到了这些特别丰富的区域。

And so it's like TikTok just purified something that was simple, basic machine learning, but just like, purify what we're doing here.

所以这就像是 TikTok 只是净化了一些简单的、基本的机器学习的东西，但就像净化了我们在这里所做的事情一样。

And that turned out to be enough to create what's like probably the most addictive force we've seen in the digital world in a long time.

事实证明，这足以创造出我们长期以来在数字世界中看到的最令人上瘾的力量。

So TikTok is optimized for dwell time.

因此 TikTok 针对停留时间进行了优化。

That's the thought, right?

就是这个想法，对吗？

Because it's not public.

因为它不是公开的。

So like, we don't exactly know how the algorithm works, but people have been studying it like a skinner box, you know, 100 phones.

就像，我们并不完全知道该算法是如何工作的，但人们一直在像斯金纳盒子一样研究它，你知道，100 部手机。

And we, we look at all these accounts, look at the variables.

我们查看所有这些账户，查看变量。

It seems like that's largely what it's optimizing for is how long did you watch before you swiped?

看来它优化的主要目的是你在刷卡之前观看了多长时间？

Right.

正确的。

And that's it.

就是这样。

So there, there, I mean, it's not, this was both what was smart about TikTok and also why I've been arguing, it's, it's destabilized.

所以，我的意思是，事实并非如此，这既是 TikTok 的聪明之处，也是我一直争论的原因，它不稳定。

The whole traditional Social Media narrative is because the traditional massive Social Media players of the last decade had this first mover advantage on these giant actual social networks, right?

整个传统社交媒体叙事是因为过去十年传统的大型社交媒体玩家在这些巨大的实际社交网络上拥有先发优势，对吗？

So like Twitter and Facebook and Instagram had these massive networks of people's preferences of following this person and this person I'm following.

就像 Twitter、Facebook 和 Instagram 一样，拥有这些庞大的网络，包含人们关注这个人和我正在关注的这个人的偏好。

And they could leverage these actual social graphs as a huge source of producing interesting content, right?

他们可以利用这些实际的社交图谱作为产生有趣内容的巨大来源，对吗？

And this was a huge first mover advantage because you can't, it's hard to get 100 million people to use something now, right.

这是一个巨大的先发优势，因为你不能，现在很难让 1 亿人使用某些东西，对吧。

TikTok got rid of all that, we don't want a social graph.

TikTok 摆脱了这一切，我们不需要社交图谱。

You as a user don't have to declare anything.

作为用户，您无需声明任何内容。

You don't have to follow people or say who your friends are.

您不必关注别人或说出您的朋友是谁。

We'll just start showing you things and that was more compelling than what you could generate with a social graph.

我们将开始向您展示一些东西，这比您使用社交图谱生成的东西更引人注目。

But now there's no first mover advantage.

但现在已经没有先发优势了。

So as the big Social Media players follow the TikTok model, which is much more algorithmic.

因此，随着大型社交媒体公司效仿 TikTok 模式，该模式的算法性更强。

Let's just try to curate based on algorithms, not who you follow or who your friends are.

让我们尝试根据算法进行策划，而不是根据您关注的人或您的朋友是谁。

They're now much more vulnerable because Tik Tok could come along and do this without having to spend five years getting people to declare their friends.

他们现在变得更加脆弱，因为 Tik Tok 可以做到这一点，而不必花五年时间让人们宣布自己为好友。

And now if someone else could come along and do this.

现在如果其他人可以一起做这件事。

So I think the major players are giving away their competitive advantage, which is this the social graph IP that no one will ever replicate again, they're giving away that advantage.

所以我认为主要参与者正在放弃他们的竞争优势，这就是没有人会再次复制的社交图IP，他们正在放弃这种优势。

And now it's a free for all playing field of all sources of attention engagement.

现在，它是一个对所有注意力参与来源都免费的竞争环境。

So I don't know, I think TikTok accidentally destabilized the Social Media decade that had been defining until I think just recently.

所以我不知道，我认为 TikTok 意外地破坏了社交媒体十年的稳定，直到我认为最近才定义这个十年。

What I find so interesting about Social Media platforms like TikTok is that sure it makes sense that kids and teens would use it, they were raised with it, Snapchat, et cetera.

我发现像 TikTok 这样的社交媒体平台如此有趣的地方在于，孩子和青少年会使用它，他们是在 Snapchat 等的陪伴下长大的，这肯定是有道理的。

But when I see my peers who, you know, we call ourselves adults, people in their mid to late forties, fifties essentially like playing kids games or engaging through these platforms that are, and they're not childlike necessarily, but they, they just prove that the or rather that their adherent slash addiction to them just proves that this is tapping into some core neural circuit that exists in everyone.

但当我看到我的同龄人时，你知道，我们称自己为成年人，四十岁中后期、五十岁的人本质上喜欢玩儿童游戏或通过这些平台参与，他们不一定像孩子一样，但他们只是证明，或者更确切地说，他们对他们的坚持斜线成瘾只是证明这是在利用每个人都存在的一些核心神经回路。

So while it might be shaping the young brain a lot, this is adults basically eating junk food all day.

因此，虽然它可能对年轻人的大脑有很大的影响，但成年人基本上整天都在吃垃圾食品。

Which raises a question, you know, I think, while there are many different ways to eat and it's not a topic we want to get into now, Lord knows that's a great way to, to create, a lot of Social Media content debating which diet Omnivore, carnivore, vegan, et cetera.

这提出了一个问题，你知道，我认为，虽然有很多不同的饮食方式，而且这不是我们现在想要讨论的话题，但上帝知道这是一个很好的方式，可以创建大量社交媒体内容来讨论哪种饮食是杂食动物、肉食动物、纯素食等等。

The notion of intermittent fasting, limiting ones a portion of the day where they eat to whatever, six hours, four hours, 12 hours is an interesting one that maybe has some applicability here.

间歇性禁食的概念，限制人们一天中吃东西的时间，六小时，四小时，十二小时，这是一个有趣的概念，也许在这里有一些适用性。

What are your thoughts about simply not turning on the phone, maybe even not turning Wi Fi on if people are, are not as disciplined as you are with the laptop or tablet.

您对不打开手机，甚至不打开 Wi-Fi 的想法是什么，如果人们没有像您使用笔记本电脑或平板电脑那样遵守纪律的话。

For the first two hours of the day or four hours of the day or for a portion of the day, sort of like you're taking a, a Social Media fast that is in 30 days.

在一天的前两个小时或一天中的四个小时或一天中的一部分时间，有点像您在 30 天内进行社交媒体禁食。

It's, you know, which I think for a lot of people is going to evoke high Cortisol release.

我认为这对很多人来说会引起皮质醇的高释放。

Just the idea of it.

只是它的想法。

Yeah.

是的。

Now this is an idea I've written about before, you know, in deep work, I had this chapter called Embrace Boredom.

这是我之前写过的一个想法，你知道，在深入的工作中，我有一章叫做“拥抱无聊”。

That was the entire idea.

这就是整个想法。

Right.

正确的。

So, the idea was, boredom by itself is not, I think laudable.

所以，我认为无聊本身并不值得称赞。

Right there, there's a reason why it feels distressing when things feel distressing.

就在那里，当事情令人痛苦时，人们会感到痛苦是有原因的。

That's usually an evolutionary signal that there's something going on here.

这通常是一个进化信号，表明这里正在发生一些事情。

But what I was arguing in that chapter was exactly what you're talking about.

但我在那一章中所争论的正是你所谈论的。

You should have some moments every day where you're free from distraction, even though you could be accessing distraction and you want to and like a little bit each day, 20 minutes each day and then maybe a longer session once a week, like a couple of hours.

你每天应该有一些不受干扰的时刻，即使你可能会受到干扰，并且你想要并且喜欢每天一点，每天 20 分钟，然后可能每周一次较长的时间，比如几个小时。

My argument for that was, it's about breaking a Pavlovian connection in this sense, right?

我对此的论点是，从这个意义上讲，这是关于打破巴甫洛夫联系，对吧？

So if it's every time I feel bored, I'm lack of novel stimuli, I get this release of the phone, your mind is really gonna make that association of like, this is what we always do.

所以，如果每次我感到无聊，缺乏新奇的刺激，当我拿到这款手机时，你的大脑真的会产生这样的联想，这就是我们一直在做的事情。

If sometimes you don't, it's a different cognitive landscape, right?

如果有时你不这样做，那就是一个不同的认知景观，对吗？

Your mind is sometimes we get the distraction.

你的心思有时会分散我们的注意力。

Sometimes we don't, that's a much better place to be because now when it comes time to actually focus on something, you know, your mind's like I've been here before, like we don't always get the distraction.

有时我们不会，这是一个更好的地方，因为现在当真正专注于某件事时，你知道，你的思想就像我以前来过这里一样，就像我们并不总是分心一样。

So, you know, it isn't going back, you know, early 20th century psychology, there's probably a more neuroscientific way to think about this.

所以，你知道，它不会倒退，你知道，20 世纪初的心理学，可能有一种更神经科学的方式来思考这个问题。

But it's like breaking Pavlovian loops of, like, sometimes at the end of the day I'm exhausted.

但这就像打破巴甫洛夫循环一样，有时在一天结束时我会筋疲力尽。

It's Instagram time and it, like, scratches an itch.

现在是 Instagram 时代，它让人心痒痒。

But other times I'm bored, I'm in line at the pharmacy and I don't look at the phone.

但其他时候我很无聊，我在药房排队，我不看手机。

My brain learns, like, yeah, we don't always do it.

我的大脑了解到，是的，我们并不总是这样做。

And, and so the idea is that, you know, if you make boredom more tolerable, then you're much more likely to succeed with doing things that are boring but hard.

而且，所以这个想法是，你知道，如果你让无聊变得更容易忍受，那么你更有可能在做无聊但困难的事情时取得成功。

And I think deep work, for example, is boring.

例如，我认为深度工作很无聊。

It just in the clinical sense of there's lack of novel stimuli, you're just doing the same thing for a long time.

从临床意义上来说，缺乏新奇的刺激，你只是长时间做同样的事情。

So I've always advocated for that is like you shouldn't be un super uncomfortable with boredom.

所以我一直主张你不应该对无聊感到非常不舒服。

Like don't go seeking it.

就像不要去寻找它一样。

I'm not a big believer of and boredom is where all creative insight comes from.

我不太相信无聊是所有创造性洞察力的来源。

I think it's a strong evolutionary cue like leave this state, but you do have to have some tolerance for it.

我认为这是一个强烈的进化暗示，比如离开这种状态，但你必须对它有一定的容忍度。

I wonder if we need a different word than boredom.

我想知道我们是否需要一个不同于无聊的词。

Are you familiar with this notion of gap effects in learning?

您熟悉学习差距效应的概念吗？

These gap effects are similar to the effects of neural processing during sleep.

这些间隙效应类似于睡眠期间神经处理的效应。

Focused attention with some agitation, triggers neuroplasticity and learning, but it's during sleep.

集中注意力并伴有一些激动，会引发神经可塑性和学习，但这是在睡眠期间。

In particular, deep sleep, rapid eye movement, sleep states of deep breath, maybe in some forms of meditation that the actual rewiring takes place.

特别是深度睡眠、快速眼球运动、深呼吸的睡眠状态，也许在某些形式的冥想中，实际的重新布线发生了。

And then there's this literature about gap effects which have been demonstrated for music, for math, for many things in which if people say are practicing new skills on the piano, for instance, but it could be any skill and then they intermittently are are cued by a buzzer to just stop and do nothing.

还有一些关于间隙效应的文献，这些效应已经在音乐、数学和许多事情上得到了证明，例如，如果人们说正在钢琴上练习新技能，但它可能是任何技能，然后他们会间歇性地被蜂鸣器提示停下来，什么也不做。

The the hippocampus which involved in learning and memory replays the action sometimes in reverse just as it occurs during sleep.

参与学习和记忆的海马体有时会像睡眠期间那样反向重播该动作。

At a rate of maybe 20 or 30 times faster at the neural level.

神经层面的速度可能快 20 或 30 倍。

We're not talking about boredom.

我们不是在谈论无聊。

What we're talking about are pauses during which perhaps we are obtaining accelerated neuroplasticity.

我们所谈论的是暂停，在此期间我们可能正在获得加速的神经可塑性。

The gap effects certainly accelerate learning.

差距效应无疑会加速学习。

I've talked about these in other podcasts, but I wonder whether or not this thing that you're calling boredom.

我在其他播客中讨论过这些，但我想知道你是否称之为无聊。

So being in line to get some groceries and not taking one's phone out while the checker is, you know, scanning the groceries through and just not really doing much of anything.

因此，排队购买杂货时，收银员正在扫描杂货，但没有真正做任何事情，而没有拿出手机。

It's entirely possible that the thing that we were working on earlier that day or the previous day is being processed in the hippocampus at an unconscious level at a much more rapid rate.

完全有可能的是，我们当天早些时候或前一天正在做的事情正在海马体中以无意识的水平以更快的速度进行处理。

Were we to look at our phone, we would inhibit those gap effects which are truly beneficial.

如果我们看一下我们的手机，我们就会抑制那些真正有益的间隙效应。

Well, I mean, professors feel this all the time, right?

嗯，我的意思是，教授们一直都有这种感觉，对吗？

At least a lot of ones I've talked to with peer review.

至少我和很多人谈过同行评审。

So I don't know if you've had this experience, but you're like reviewing a paper.

所以我不知道你是否有过这样的经历，但是你就像审阅一篇论文一样。

I often have this experience where when I'm first engaging with the paper, I feel incredibly frustrated.

我经常有这样的经历，当我第一次接触这篇论文时，我感到非常沮丧。

Like, I, I don't quite understand what they're doing here.

就像，我，我不太明白他们在这里做什么。

Like, this mathematics isn't quite making sense to me and it'll often be the fact I come back later.

就像，这个数学对我来说不太有意义，而且通常是我稍后回来的事实。

Like, well, let me just like, write up what I have so far and your understanding is like much, much better, right?

就像，好吧，让我写下我到目前为止所掌握的内容，你的理解会好得多，对吧？

So there's this, this sense of maybe something's been processing.

所以就是这样，这种感觉也许有些东西正在被处理。

I took that so seriously when I was especially a post stock.

当我特别是邮政股票时，我非常认真地对待这一点。

Like when I was at the height of just all I do in my life is produce value with my brain every day.

就像当我处于巅峰时，我一生中所做的一切就是每天用我的大脑创造价值。

I would do what I call thorough walks because I, I discovered Thoreau while a grad student, I read it down by the Charles, like the full sort of, you know, just minus the beret, like pretentious grad student thing.

我会做我所说的彻底散步，因为我，我在研究生的时候发现了梭罗，我在查尔斯那里读到了它，就像完整的，你知道的，只是去掉了贝雷帽，就像自命不凡的研究生一样。

But I was really in the, the, the Walden real influential book for me.

但《瓦尔登湖》这本书对我来说确实是有影响力的。

So every day when I would walk back, I was living on Beacon Hill, walking from MIT.

所以每天当我步行回来时，我住在灯塔山，从麻省理工学院步行过来。

So people who know Boston, it's, it's going across the Longfellow bridge.

所以了解波士顿的人都会知道，它正在穿过朗费罗桥。

I would say nothing but nature observation.

除了自然观察之外我什么也不说。

Like that's what I'm doing.

就像我正在做的那样。

I'm just oh, the ice is thinner on the Charles today.

我只是哦，今天查尔斯河上的冰更薄了。

Like look at this tree or the leaves coming back partially.

就像看看这棵树或部分叶子回来一样。

I think what was going on is like, this was right after I'd been white boarding it.

我认为发生的事情是这样的，这是在我将其添加到白板之后。

Right.

正确的。

I think it was letting stuff process.

我认为这是让事情继续进行。

Right.

正确的。

So I had this explicitly in my routine, a lot of time where I was ok, I can't think about work at all.

所以我的日常生活中明确地有这样的情况，很多时候我都还好，我根本无法思考工作。

I can't do anything else.

我无能为力。

But, you know, I'm thinking about the tree, I'm thinking about the water, like, really sort of minimal cognitive lifts.

但是，你知道，我在想树，我在想水，就像，真的是一种最小的认知提升。

And I wonder if that's what was going on there?

我想知道这是否是那里发生的事情？

Like to me that, I mean, that was a very productive period of my life.

对我来说，我的意思是，那是我一生中非常富有成效的时期。

Yeah, I feel like in the, in the last 5, 10 years.

是的，我觉得在过去的 5 年、10 年里。

Thanks largely in part to Matt Walker's book, Why We Sleep and the Advocacy around Sleep from others.

很大程度上要归功于马特·沃克（Matt Walker）的书《我们为什么睡觉》以及其他人对睡眠的倡导。

We've come to understand that sleep is essential for mental health, physical health and learning, cognitive performance, physical performance so much so that now people devote immense amounts of attention and, and resources to trying to get the best possible night's sleep.

我们已经认识到，睡眠对于心理健康、身体健康和学习、认知表现、身体表现至关重要，因此现在人们投入大量的注意力和资源来试图获得尽可能好的夜间睡眠。

Whereas it was the I'll sleep when I'm dead mentality prior to that.

而在此之前是“我死了就睡觉”的心态。

And I, I would love to see a world where people embrace, not the notion of boredom per se, but the notion of gaps, lack of external stimuli coming into our, our eyes and our cognitive system as a means to get smarter, to get more creative, to get better.

而我，我希望看到一个人们拥抱的世界，不是无聊本身的概念，而是差距的概念，缺乏外部刺激进入我们、我们的眼睛和我们的认知系统，作为变得更聪明、更有创造力、变得更好的手段。

We just need a language for this.

我们只需要一种语言来实现这一点。

And I think it's the, you know, so often language is a separator when it comes to health and performance tools.

我认为，在健康和绩效工具方面，语言常常是一个分隔符。

Something I really strive for is to try and create language that's not linked to any one person that illustrates what something is for.

我真正努力的目标是尝试创造一种与任何人无关的语言来说明某物的用途。

So maybe no small task Cal but maybe we'll just have you rename boredom as a neural rewiring a box or something like that.

所以也许这不是一个小任务，卡尔，但也许我们会让你将无聊重新命名为神经重新布线盒子或类似的东西。

I'll go with the term.

我会同意这个词。

My whole writing career, by the way is based on taking things people already intuitively know in their gut and giving it a two word name and just having the language around it really matters like it's a deep work.

顺便说一句，我的整个写作生涯都是基于人们直觉上已经知道的事情，并给它起一个两个词的名字，围绕它的语言真的很重要，就像这是一部深入的作品一样。

Oh OK.

哦，好吧。

That's like this activity.

这次活动就是这样。

I kind of knew that was important.

我有点知道这很重要。

I didn't have a name or digital minimalism like, oh yeah, that I kind of know what that means.

我没有名字，也没有数字极简主义，哦，是的，我知道这意味着什么。

Like it's a different, different philosophy towards it.

就像这是一种不同的、不同的哲学。

But there's also so I do have a name related to the the gaps we're talking about.

但我确实有一个与我们正在讨论的差距相关的名字。

But, but for one of the other negative effects, right?

但是，除了其他负面影响之一，对吗？

So we have the positive effects you talked about which is consolidation of learning and acceleration of learning.

所以我们有你提到的积极效果，即巩固学习和加速学习。

We had the one negative effect which was the Pavlovian connection to distraction.

我们有一个负面影响，那就是巴甫洛夫与分心的联系。

The other one I've written about before is solitude, deprivation, right?

我之前写过的另一件事是孤独、匮乏，对吗？

So, so I'm using a different definition of solitude than the colloquial one.

所以，我对孤独的定义不同于口语定义。

Most people think of it as a physical thing, I'm, I'm just isolated, but there's a, there's a cognitive psychological definition of solitude, which means absence of stimuli created by other human minds, right?

大多数人认为这是一种身体上的事情，我，我只是孤立的，但是孤独有一个认知心理学的定义，这意味着没有其他人类思想创造的刺激，对吗？

So I'm not taking in information that's coming directly from another human mind.

所以我不会接受直接来自另一个人头脑的信息。

Having no period with this solitude.

没有时间享受这种孤独。

So, having no period in your day where you're free from stimuli created from other minds is solitude, deprivation.

因此，一天中没有一段时间你可以免受他人思想的刺激，这就是孤独和匮乏。

And it's a real issue and partially, it's a real issue because when we're processing input from another human brain, it's all hands on deck, right?

这是一个真正的问题，部分地，这是一个真正的问题，因为当我们处理来自另一个人脑的输入时，所有人都在甲板上，对吧？

I mean, we're very social beings, a huge portion of our brain is dedicated to this, right?

我的意思是，我们是非常社交的人，我们大脑的很大一部分都致力于此，对吗？

So it's a very cognitively expensive activity when I'm trying to understand another human's what they're saying, I'm simulating their mental state.

因此，当我试图理解另一个人在说什么时，我正在模拟他们的心理状态，这是一项认知成本非常高的活动。

I'm trying to understand like, where do they fall in this sort of social hierarchy?

我试图理解，他们在这种社会等级制度中处于什么位置？

And one of my arguments was when you spend your entire day in that state, it's exhausting and anxiety producing.

我的论点之一是，当你一整天都处于这种状态时，会让人筋疲力尽并产生焦虑。

And like until we had smartphones and ubiquitous wireless internet, the idea that you could banish all solitude from your day is laughable.

就像在我们拥有智能手机和无处不在的无线互联网之前一样，你可以消除一天中所有孤独的想法是可笑的。

It's just impossible, right?

这是不可能的，对吧？

So, of course, we had a lot of portions of our day where our brain was not like ramped up in gear four, like the sort of social processing mode, but smartphones makes it possible that you can be in that mode all day long.

所以，当然，我们一天中的很多时候，我们的大脑并没有像社交处理模式那样加速到四档，但智能手机让你可以一整天都处于这种模式。

And so like, one of the things I hypothesize is some of the anxiety rises that goes with the age of smartphones is brain exhaustion, right?

所以，我假设的一件事是，随着智能手机时代的到来，焦虑的增加是大脑疲劳，对吗？

So that's, that's another negative effect of the constant.

这就是该常数的另一个负面影响。

We have two negative effects now for the constant stimuli and one positive effect for the absence of the constant stimuli.

现在，我们对持续刺激有两种负面影响，而对没有持续刺激则有一种积极影响。

So I think we're making a case here for not always being on your device.

所以我认为我们在这里提出的理由是不要总是在您的设备上。

Yeah, I agree.

是的，我同意。

One of my favorite literatures from Neuroscience is I think most people have heard of the so called critical period stages of development.

我最喜欢的神经科学文献之一是我认为大多数人都听说过所谓的发展关键期。

When the brain is essentially hyperplastic to any input for better or worse, this is a stage of life called childhood.

当大脑基本上对任何输入（无论好坏）都处于增生状态时，这就是被称为童年的人生阶段。

And then of course, people throughout the number 25 after age 25 plasticity possible requires more effort, tension, et cetera and then sleep so forth.

当然，整个数字25的人在25岁之后的可塑性可能需要更多的努力、紧张等等，然后睡觉等等。

But we know based on really beautiful studies that if you deprive someone of sensory input for even a few hours.

但基于非常出色的研究，我们知道，如果你剥夺某人的感官输入，哪怕是几个小时。

And we're not talking about sitting in a completely blackened room with no input, but you, you essentially limit the amount of sensory input in the period that follows.

我们并不是在谈论坐在完全黑暗的房间里没有任何输入，而是你，你基本上限制了接下来一段时间内的感官输入量。

You get a an opportunity for a hyperplastic response to any stimuli.

你有机会对任何刺激做出增生性反应。

And this just makes sense if you understand basics about signal, the noise and the visual system.

如果您了解有关信号、噪声和视觉系统的基础知识，这就有意义了。

And and the and the brain, it just means when there's a lot of background chatter of stuff, it's harder to see the stuff that matters.

而大脑，这只是意味着当有很多背景信息时，就很难看到重要的东西。

And the stuff that the brain's rewired to very Computer Science Neurog engineering type perspective.

大脑重新连接到非常计算机科学神经工程类型的视角。

But yes, I would love for you to come up with a, a two word description of, of this.

但是，是的，我希望你能对此做出一个两个词的描述。

It's not boredom induced plasticity.

这不是无聊引起的可塑性。

It's this quiet induced hyper plasticity or something.

就是这种安静引起的超可塑性什么的。

I don't know, maybe we can riff on this together sometime, not trying to move into your space.

我不知道，也许我们可以找个时间一起讨论这个问题，而不是试图进入你的空间。

But I have a very practical question.

但我有一个非常实际的问题。

And I'd love to get a little more insight into the structure of your days.

我很想更深入地了解您的生活结构。

But are you a list maker?

但你是一个清单制定者吗？

Like, do you wake up in the morning and make lists and cross things off and then decide what are the key items on that list?

比如，你早上醒来会列出清单并划掉一些事情，然后决定清单上的关键项目是什么？

No, I'm a time blocker.

不，我是一个时间阻碍者。

Time blocker.

时间阻碍者。

Ok.

好的。

Yeah.

是的。

So I'm not a big believer in to do list.

所以我不太相信待办事项清单。

I, I like to grapple with the actual available time.

我，我喜欢与实际可用的时间作斗争。

Like, ok, I have a meeting here.

就像，好吧，我在这里开会。

I have to like, pick my kids up from school here.

我必须喜欢在这里接我的孩子放学。

Here's the actual hours of the day that are free and where they fall.

以下是一天中实际的空闲时间以及空闲时间。

All right.

好的。

What do I want to do at that time?

那个时候我想做什么？

Well, ok, now that I see that there's a lot of gaps in the middle of the day here.

好吧，现在我发现这里中午有很多间隙。

They're short.

他们很矮。

Maybe there.

也许在那里。

I'm gonna do a lot of small, non commonly demanding thing.

我会做很多小事，不常见的要求很高的事情。

Oh, this 1st 90 minutes in the morning is like the main time I have uninterrupted.

哦，早上的第一个90分钟就像是我不受打扰的主要时间。

Ok.

好的。

So this, I'm gonna work on writing.

所以，我要努力写作。

So I've, I've been a big believer of this since I was an undergrad.

所以我从本科生起就一直坚信这一点。

Like you give your time a job as opposed to having a list, which is somewhat orthogonal to what's actually happening in your day.

就像你给自己的时间安排了一份工作，而不是列出一份清单，这与你一天中实际发生的事情有些正交。

And then just as you go through your day saying, what do I want to try to do next?

然后，当你度过这一天时，你会问，接下来我想尝试做什么？

Which I think is a lot less efficient.

我认为这效率低很多。

I'm gonna try your method.

我要试试你的方法。

I try to structure my days as much as I can, but it just never quite works.

我尝试尽可能地安排自己的生活，但从来都不太有效。

Do you work late into the night or you?

你工作到深夜还是你？

No, no, I'm, I'm a 530 man.

不，不，我是，我是一个530男人。

Ok, so 5:30 p.

好的，那么下午 5:30

m.

米。

That's it.

就是这样。

Yeah, more or less.

是的，或多或少。

That's my cut off.

这就是我的断点。

Now, the, the one exception is if I'm writing on deadline, I'll sometimes like, if I need to get more writing done, I can do an evening writing session which, which I got used to through long experience of, I used to write my blog post at night after like my kids went to bed now they're older and they don't go to bed as early.

现在，一个例外是，如果我要在截止日期前写作，我有时会喜欢，如果我需要完成更多写作，我可以进行晚上的写作会议，通过长期的经验，我已经习惯了，我过去常常在晚上写我的博客文章，就像我的孩子们上床睡觉一样，现在他们长大了，他们不会那么早上床睡觉。

So it's like the one thing I have left that I'll do after 530 is like every once in a while I'll do like a 90 minute evening writing block.

所以这就像我在 530 之后要做的一件事，就像每隔一段时间我就会做 90 分钟的晚间写作。

But I call this, by the way, this whole philosophy I call fixed schedule productivity.

但顺便说一句，我把这整个哲学称为固定时间表生产力。

I've been doing it since I was a grad student.

我从研究生时期就开始这么做了。

Fix the work hour schedule.

确定工作时间安排。

That's my commitment.

这是我的承诺。

I work in these hours, and then work downstream from that for everything else.

我在这些时间里工作，然后在接下来的时间里做其他事情。

So, like this controls, like even what you decide to bring into your life because, you know, I can't go past a schedule.

所以，就像这样的控制，甚至就像你决定带入你的生活的东西，因为，你知道，我不能超越时间表。

And it drives you to be more innovative in how you deal with your time and schedule.

它会促使您在处理时间和日程安排方面更具创新性。

You have to be efficient because you only have these, these hours here.

你必须要有效率，因为你在这里只有这些、这些时间。

That's been, you know, a, a signal for my, my life since I was in my early twenties, fix the schedule and don't work outside of that schedule.

你知道，从我二十岁出头开始，这就是我的生活的一个信号，确定时间表，不要超出时间表工作。

Now, it's your move to figure out anything you want to do.

现在，你要弄清楚你想做的任何事情。

You have to make that work.

你必须让它发挥作用。

When you become a professor, figure out how to make that work, you want to write books while you're being a professor.

当你成为一名教授时，弄清楚如何使其发挥作用，你想在担任教授的同时写书。

Figure out how to make that work.

弄清楚如何使其发挥作用。

You don't have the option of just throwing hours at it and you innovate a lot.

你不能选择仅仅投入大量时间来进行创新。

I think when you have the constraints.

我认为当你有限制的时候。

Where do you sleep and exercise fit into your schedule, what's your typical to bed time?

您的睡眠和锻炼时间安排在哪里？您通常的就寝时间是怎样的？

Wake up time?

起床时间？

What's your typical exercise routine?

您的典型锻炼习惯是什么？

And the reason I ask about this is because I think nowadays we hopefully people understand that ex exercise and cognitive function are, are inextricably linked and we're all going to live longer lives and be sharper mentally by doing exercise.

我问这个问题的原因是因为我认为现在我们希望人们明白锻炼和认知功能是密不可分的，通过锻炼我们都将活得更长，头脑更敏锐。

Yeah.

是的。

So, I mean, my main like actual working with weights.

所以，我的意思是，我主要喜欢实际使用重量。

I do this pre dinner, right.

我在晚饭前做这个，对吧。

And this was the innovation of the last couple of years.

这是过去几年的创新。

It's, it's a fantastic psychologically for me, this is a transition from work to like family time after work.

这对我来说是一种奇妙的心理体验，这是从工作到下班后的家庭时光的过渡。

So, so I'll do like 45 50 minutes, garage gym.

所以，所以我会做 45 50 分钟，车库健身房。

You know that we built during COVID after I'm done working before dinner.

你知道我们是在新冠疫情期间我晚饭前完成工作后建造的。

And once you get used to that, like, it also forces you, like, I gotta finish work because I got to get this in before dinner.

一旦你习惯了，它也会迫使你，比如，我必须完成工作，因为我必须在晚饭前把它拿到手。

But then I'll do also quite a bit of walking if it's not a teaching day.

但如果不是教学日，我也会做很多步行。

So I'm not on campus.

所以我不在校园里。

I do a lot of thinking on foot.

我步行思考了很多。

You know, walking my kids to the bus stop, which isn't particularly close and back.

你知道，我送孩子们去公交车站，但往返路程并不是特别近。

So I'll do a lot of walking.

所以我会多走路。

But that's when I, my serious exercise now is always, always predinner.

但那时我，我现在的认真锻炼总是，总是饭前。

Then, I want to be up, you know, in our room by 10 and then at that point I don't track.

然后，我想在 10 点之前起床，你知道，在我们的房间里，然后我就不再跟踪了。

So I have, insomnia issues which, which actually has been a key driver of a lot of the things I think about, especially with slow productivity is I'm very wary because I can, without any control on my own, just find myself unable to sleep, sometimes fall asleep or stay asleep, fall asleep.

所以我有失眠问题，这实际上是我思考很多事情的关键驱动因素，尤其是在生产力低下的情况下，我非常警惕，因为我可以在没有任何自己控制的情况下，发现自己无法入睡，有时睡着或睡着，睡着。

Yeah, I mean, I, I used to get it really bad.

是的，我的意思是，我，我曾经过得很糟糕。

Not so bad now, but, you know, it comes and goes that really affected the way I thought about productivity because it seemed like to me the, the definition of just I get after it with a bunch of stuff wasn't really on the table because if my notion of productivity depended on me, like every day being able to just like hammer on a bunch of stuff, I'm very busy.

现在还不错，但是，你知道，它的来来去去确实影响了我对生产力的看法，因为在我看来，“我用一堆东西来追求它”的定义并没有真正摆在桌面上，因为如果我对生产力的概念取决于我，就像每天都能像锤击一堆东西一样，我会非常忙碌。

I have lots of commitments.

我有很多承诺。

What would happen if I couldn't sleep?

如果我睡不着会发生什么？

I want to be able to do that.

我希望能够做到这一点。

So I drifted naturally towards a definition of productivity, which was, it doesn't really matter if you work tomorrow.

所以我自然而然地倾向于生产力的定义，那就是，明天是否工作并不重要。

But it is important that like this month you work like writing a book, it doesn't matter if you work on your book chapter tomorrow in particular.

但重要的是，就像这个月一样，你像写书一样工作，明天是否特别在写书的章节并不重要。

But like this month, you have to spend a lot of time working on it.

但就像这个月一样，你必须花费大量的时间来努力。

So it was like an insomnia compatible definition of productivity was sort of morphed into this idea of slow productivity, taking your, your time with it.

因此，就像失眠兼容的生产力定义有点演变成生产力缓慢的想法，占用你的时间。

So it's interesting.

所以这很有趣。

So like sleep issues really shaped the way I thought about work and put me on these much longer time scales of productivity.

因此，睡眠问题确实影响了我对工作的思考方式，并使我的生产力处于更长的时间范围内。

Try not to be dependent on any particular day being critical to what you do.

尽量不要依赖某一天对你所做的事情至关重要。

I don't want the high stress situation.

我不想要高压力的情况。

I don't want to like, I'm just gonna 10 hours a day for the next 10 days.

我不想，我只想在接下来的10天内每天工作10个小时。

We're gonna make this deal happen.

我们会让这笔交易发生。

Like I can't operate in that space because I worry about it any time my brain could betray me and I could, like, lose sleep for a couple of days.

就像我无法在那个空间里操作一样，因为我担心任何时候我的大脑都会背叛我，我可能会失眠几天。

I think it's really important that you're sharing this because while people's challenges differ, I think often times people hear the content of my podcast or other podcasts and think, oh, gosh, I have to have everything dialed in just right when, in fact, most all of the tools and protocols that have been discussed on the Huberman Lab podcast are in response to a particular challenge that I've had.

我认为分享这一点非常重要，因为虽然人们面临的挑战各不相同，但我认为人们经常听到我的播客或其他播客的内容，并想，哦，天哪，我必须把一切都拨到恰到好处，而事实上，在 Huberman 实验室播客上讨论的大多数工具和协议都是为了应对我遇到的特定挑战。

Or that others close to me have had.

或者我身边的人也有过这样的经历。

And I, I love this.

而我，我喜欢这个。

I, I'm sorry that you suffer from insomnia.

我，很抱歉你失眠了。

We have a series on Sleep with Matt Walker in which he lays out some, some great tools that we haven't yet discussed on the podcast.

我们有一个关于马特·沃克 (Matt Walker) 的睡眠系列，其中他列出了一些我们尚未在播客上讨论过的很棒的工具。

I'll just send you a text you, I'll call you with a, with a short list of those and hopefully they'll help.

我只会给你发一条短信，我会给你打电话，并附上一份简短的清单，希望它们能有所帮助。

But as we do cover insomnia in some depth, but I think it's important that people realize that they can be very productive with the hours that they have and the, the moments or hours of, of high focus clarity that they have.

但正如我们确实深入讨论失眠问题一样，我认为重要的是，人们要认识到，他们可以利用自己拥有的时间以及高度专注的清晰度来提高工作效率。

Even if they're not sleeping great, even if they're raising small children, because that's the real world and certainly that's the real world of deadlines in academia.

即使他们睡得不好，即使他们正在抚养小孩，因为这就是现实世界，当然这也是学术界截止日期的现实世界。

But, family and colds and flus and travel and jet lag and arguments and all the happy stuff too.

但是，还有家庭、感冒、流感、旅行、时差、争吵以及所有快乐的事情。

Vacations.

假期。

So, sounds like you're very good at adapting your day to what's going on around it, but that you have certain sort of committed time.

所以，听起来你非常擅长让自己的一天适应周围发生的事情，但你也有一定的投入时间。

Am I correct in assuming that you have at least one period of, say 60 to 90 minutes of real, what you would call deep work?

我假设你至少有一段时间，比如说 60 到 90 分钟的真正的深度工作，这对吗？

Let's say at least five days a week.

假设每周至少五天。

I know that might be an underestimate, but it seems like that's what I, that's what I'm extracting from this.

我知道这可能被低估了，但这似乎就是我，这就是我从中提取的内容。

That's the goal, right.

这就是目标，对吧。

So, so to me, depending on the season is how extreme that can get.

所以，对我来说，根据季节的不同，这种情况会变得多么极端。

So the, the busiest season would be like a teaching semester, right?

那么，最繁忙的季节就像一个教学学期，对吗？

But even then I'm gonna make sure that five days a week, I'm starting with deep and the non teaching days are more than the teaching days.

但即便如此，我也会确保每周有五天从深度开始，并且非教学日比教学日多。

Compare that to the summer.

与夏天相比。

For example, where like all I do for the most part is deep work.

例如，我大部分时间所做的就是深度工作。

No meetings on Mondays and Fridays.

周一和周五没有会议。

All admin stuff is midday to early afternoon, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday.

所有管理工作都是在周二、周三、周四的中午到下午早些时候进行。

Everything else is deep work, you know, just locked in, you know, hours at a time.

其他一切都是深度工作，你知道，只是锁定，你知道，一次几个小时。

But I want, if I'm not getting five days, five days of starting the day with deep work, I'm, I'm unhappy, right?

但我想，如果我没有五天、五天的时间开始新的一天，我就会不快乐，对吗？

Because I mean, I keep coming back to this is ok because I'm not going to be able to, I mean, fortunately the insomnia doesn't bother, it hasn't bothered me in years but the, the, the thread of it, like, completely shaped the way I think about things and because I know I'm never going to be, have a sort of like an Elon Musk style energy of, like, I can just take on seven companies and make it happen.

因为我的意思是，我不断地回到这个问题上是可以的，因为我不能，我的意思是，幸运的是，失眠并没有困扰，它已经好几年没有困扰我了，但是，它的主线，就像，完全塑造了我思考事物的方式，因为我知道我永远不会有一种像埃隆马斯克式的能量，就像，我可以接手七家公司并实现它。

Right.

正确的。

I just don't have that ability.

我只是没有那个能力。

I've always focused on the long game and to me, the long game plays out with, get your deep work time in, you know, just keep working on the stuff you do best to get better at it, you know, tomorrow doesn't matter.

我一直专注于长期游戏，对我来说，长期游戏的结果是，投入你的深度工作时间，你知道，继续做你最擅长的事情，以便做得更好，你知道，明天并不重要。

But if you, if you're doing this most days for the next four months, like that's gonna matter, you know.

但如果你，如果你在接下来的四个月里大部分时间都这样做，那就很重要，你知道。

And so I often think about productivity in my own life at the scale of decades.

因此，我经常以几十年的尺度来思考我自己生活中的生产力。

What do I want to do in my twenties, you know?

我二十多岁想做什么，你知道吗？

Ok.

好的。

What do I want to do in my thirties?

三十几岁的我想做什么？

You know, what do I want to do in my forties?

你知道我四十多岁时想做什么吗？

You know.

你知道。

And that helps, like in my thirties, I had a lot of young kids.

这很有帮助，就像我三十多岁的时候，我有很多年幼的孩子。

Like it's, yeah, I mean, the amount of time I could spend total working is like much less.

是的，我的意思是，我可以花在工作上的时间要少得多。

Right.

正确的。

But I could still think about what do I want to do in my thirties.

但我仍然可以思考三十多岁时我想做什么。

How do I make that happen?

我怎样才能做到这一点？

Let me make sure I'm pushing like, on those things then everything else I can adapt to I can give here and there, you know, it allows you to be very adaptable when you're thinking about what do I want to do, you know, for the next 10 years.

让我确保我在这些事情上推动，然后我可以适应的其他一切我都可以在这里和那里给予，你知道，当你思考我想在未来10年做什么时，它可以让你变得非常适应。

It also means you're not on a random Tuesday chiding yourself because like, why didn't I get three more hours of work?

这也意味着你不会在某个随机的星期二责备自己，因为我为什么没有再多工作三个小时？

And that becomes sort of a nonsensical question.

这变成了一个无意义的问题。

And what you care about is like, what happens in the next decade, which is, that's a long game.

你关心的是，未来十年会发生什么，这是一场漫长的游戏。

It's not about, you know, hustling today.

你知道，今天的重点不是忙碌。

It's about, I came back to deep work day after day after day when other people got distracted by TikTok, you know, like I gotta, yeah, whatever.

这是关于，当其他人被 TikTok 分散注意力时，我日复一日地回到深度工作，你知道，就像我必须，是的，无论如何。

It's that coming back to what matters again and again.

就是一次又一次地回到重要的事情上。

Years ago, I was in a scientific competition slash battle and one of my tools, it wasn't really the kindest tool was I would just suggest to the competitor, great television series.

几年前，我参加了一场科学竞赛斜线战斗，我的工具之一，它并不是真正最友善的工具，我只是向竞争对手推荐精彩的电视剧。

So The Wire, which at that time was great and we won a few, they won a few.

所以The Wire，当时很棒，我们赢了一些，他们赢了一些。

But you know, there's something very addictive about those Netflix shows.

但你知道，这些 Netflix 节目非常让人上瘾。

I, you know, I mean, they're unbelievably addictive just even seeing the, the, the slider next episode slider come up, you can skip the intro.

我，你知道，我的意思是，即使看到下一集滑块出现，他们也会令人难以置信地上瘾，你可以跳过介绍。

It's, it's just like they've just dialed it in.

就好像他们刚刚拨通一样。

So I suggest those to competitors all the time, not do it no longer.

所以我一直向竞争对手建议这些，而不是不再这样做。

But then who knows what role they played but I just noticed in myself how distracting they could be, they could take me to when I started watching Ozark, I found myself waking up in the middle of the night, perhaps to use the restroom or something.

但后来谁知道他们扮演什么角色，但我只是注意到他们可能会分散我的注意力，当我开始看《黑钱胜地》时，他们可能会带我去，我发现自己在半夜醒来，也许是去洗手间什么的。

And then starting another episode of Ozark was wild.

然后开始另一集《黑钱胜地》真是疯狂。

And I, I wonder whether or not a way to reverse engineer one's way to productivity reverse hack our way to productivity would be to think about all the ways that you would benevolently deploy distraction for a competitor.

我想知道，逆向工程一个人提高生产力的方法是否可以逆向破解我们提高生产力的方法，就是考虑一下你会仁慈地为竞争对手分散注意力的所有方法。

And then ask yourself what, which which of those you're still engaging in and think of yourself as sort of in a competition with the highly distracted version of oneself.

然后问问自己，你仍在参与哪些活动，并认为自己正在与高度分心的自己进行竞争。

Because I think that one task I think for us today is to try and think about for the person listening to this who's not academic, who was hearing about all this distraction that enjoys some Social Media, you know, how, how can they bring about the best version of themselves in terms of productivity but also presence for family presence with self et cetera.

因为我认为我今天为我们考虑的一项任务是尝试思考那些非学术性的听众，他们听到了所有这些享受社交媒体的干扰，你知道，他们如何才能在生产力方面实现最好的自己，而且在家庭存在与自我等方面。

And and if one isn't in a competitive environment, then maybe it's about setting up different mental maps of the self and then trying to pit them against one another and be the best version literally.

如果一个人没有处于竞争环境中，那么也许就是建立不同的自我心理地图，然后尝试将它们相互竞争，并成为真正的最佳版本。

I think that's interesting, right?

我觉得这很有趣，对吧？

Like think about what would be Yeah, what would I like this idea of thinking about my competitor, you know, what, what would really give me a leg up, you know, am I doing this?

就像想想会发生什么是的，我会喜欢这个想法来思考我的竞争对手，你知道，什么，什么才能真正给我一个优势，你知道，我在这样做吗？

I mean, but I would also add in here.

我的意思是，但我也想在这里补充一下。

This is like a, a slower productivity type idea.

这就像一个生产力较慢的想法。

You figure out the thing you really care about, you figure out what you would need to do to really show up for that thing.

你弄清楚你真正关心的事情，你弄清楚你需要做什么才能真正做到这一点。

And then if you're doing that, like give yourself a break on everything else too.

如果你这样做了，那就让自己在其他事情上也休息一下。

You know what I mean?

你知道我的意思？

It's like, I'm this way with, right.

就像，我就是这样，对吧。

If I'm getting in my writing time, I have to write, I'm very uncomfortable when I'm not writing, I just write all the time, articles, books, you know, I'm always writing.

如果我到了写作时间，我就必须写，当我不写的时候我会很不舒服，我只是一直写，文章，书籍，你知道，我总是在写。

If I'm getting in my writing time, then it's like, ok, the rest of the day, maybe like this week was a kind of a loss.

如果我进入写作时间，那么，好吧，这一天剩下的时间，也许这周是一种损失。

Like the kids were homesick or there was a crisis at the university or whatever.

就像孩子们想家或者大学发生了危机之类的。

And like, I'm just trying to keep that under control and like, have good productivity habits and like, don't contact switch too much and don't be too distracted but still have your fixed to of productivity, like end at 530 every day, and time block and try to be reasonable with that time limit the damage.

就像，我只是想控制住它，养成良好的生产力习惯，不要太多地接触开关，不要太分心，但仍然要保持固定的生产力，比如每天 530 点结束，以及时间限制，并尽量合理地限制损害。

But if I'm doing the thing that ultimately really matters, I'm gonna be pretty happy with it.

但如果我正在做最终真正重要的事情，我会对此感到非常满意。

So it's like moving the, the definition of, am I happy with what I'm producing away from a quantity metric and to this more, am I aggregating the quality reps?

因此，这就像将“我对自己生产的产品是否满意”的定义从数量指标上移开，而更多的是，我是否汇总了质量代表？

You know, and it, like, I think in weightlifting this would make a lot more sense.

你知道，我认为在举重中这更有意义。

Right.

正确的。

It's like, yeah, there's a, there's a certain number of, like, a certain amount of time under load, each muscle group needs to be on and, like, if I'm doing that, I'm happy if I'm, you know, weightlifting.

就像，是的，有一定数量的，比如，一定量的负重时间，每个肌肉群都需要发挥作用，就像，如果我这样做，如果我举重，我会很高兴。

Right.

正确的。

There's no notion of, like, why can't I, why don't I exercise five hours more this or that?

没有任何想法，比如，为什么我不能，为什么我不这样或那样地再锻炼五个小时？

And so I sometimes try to think about my core intellectual work that way.

因此，我有时会尝试以这种方式思考我的核心智力工作。

Like, if I'm getting in the core deep reps and the thing I care most about, which for me is almost always writing, then, like, the rest I just wanna, it's, it's like damage control.

就像，如果我进入核心深层代表和我最关心的事情，对我来说几乎总是写作，那么，就像，其余的我只想，它，就像损害控制。

Like, I wanna, like, do the other stuff well, and, like, not get too stressed out about it.

就像，我想，像，做好其他事情，并且，像，不要为此感到太大压力。

And, you know, there's the productivity habits then that are about doing the stuff that matters and protecting it.

而且，你知道，生产力习惯就是做重要的事情并保护它。

And then there's the habits that are all just about, let's not let the other stuff get out of control.

然后就是习惯，我们不要让其他事情失控。

You know, I find it a little bit easier.

你知道，我发现这更容易一些。

You go easier on myself when I think about it that way.

当我这样想的时候，你对自己就更轻松了。

Do you listen to music while you work?

你工作时听音乐吗？

No.

不。

Well, the data certainly support not listening to music or if you do listen to music, listening to music without lyrics.

嗯，数据当然支持不听音乐，或者如果你听音乐，听没有歌词的音乐。

Yeah.

是的。

You have to train, even to get used to it.

你必须训练，甚至要习惯它。

Right.

正确的。

I mean, even to get used to music without lyrics you got to get used to it.

我的意思是，即使要习惯没有歌词的音乐，你也必须习惯它。

I guess your brain's building the filters.

我猜你的大脑正在构建过滤器。

Some people I have met, have trained themselves to work with lyrical music, which I think it took them a long time.

我遇到的一些人已经训练自己使用抒情音乐，我认为他们花了很长时间。

But I, I met a self published novelist who does like a million words a year which is crazy.

但我，我遇到了一位自行出版的小说家，他每年确实喜欢一百万字，这太疯狂了。

Then he blasts because he has four kids.

然后他大发雷霆，因为他有四个孩子。

He blasts Metallica in NASCAR earphones.

他用 NASCAR 耳机猛烈抨击 Metallica。

And I was like, how do you possibly write like this?

我当时想，你怎么可能这样写？

I think he just trained.

我认为他刚刚训练过。

His mind has just like a pure auditory filter that it's that is he adapted, I guess or maybe his books aren't that good.

他的头脑就像一个纯粹的听觉过滤器，这是他改编的，我猜或者也许他的书没那么好。

I don't know, but I like silence or like background noise but even background noise is hard.

我不知道，但我喜欢安静或喜欢背景噪音，但即使是背景噪音也很难。

I have a hard time writing at cafes, for example, like I really do like lack of stimuli.

例如，我很难在咖啡馆写作，就像我真的很喜欢缺乏刺激一样。

Do you use visual blinders?

您使用视觉盲板吗？

You know, like some people actually do this.

你知道，就像有些人实际上这样做一样。

So, you know, it's like a hoodie and they'll be like, really try and tunnel their vision which makes perfect sense from the perspective of neuroscience.

所以，你知道，它就像一件连帽衫，他们会真的尝试并开拓他们的视野，这从神经科学的角度来看是完全有意义的。

I mean, your visual world strongly constrains to the, the narrowness or the or the broadness of your cognitive maps.

我的意思是，你的视觉世界强烈限制你的认知地图的狭窄或广泛。

Yeah, I mean, I just have my spaces engineered, right?

是的，我的意思是，我只是设计了我的空间，对吗？

So like where I write in my my library at home, all the interesting windows are behind me.

就像我在家里的图书馆里写作一样，所有有趣的窗户都在我身后。

And over here I'm staring across to windows that just was right next to the neighbors and like, just typically blinds down.

在这里，我凝视着对面的窗户，窗户就在邻居旁边，通常只是百叶窗拉下来。

But as you say this, it just makes me want to, you know, shout that, you know, so many people who think they have attention deficit issues have probably just put themselves in compromised environments which include smartphone apps and things that so, I mean, like, like there's absolutely no way that they ought to be able to focus.

但正如你所说，这只是让我想，你知道，大喊，你知道，很多认为自己有注意力缺陷问题的人可能只是将自己置于包括智能手机应用程序和其他东西在内的受损环境中，所以，我的意思是，就像他们绝对不可能集中注意力一样。

In fact, perhaps the fact that they can focus at all is is miraculous given the constraints like trying to run with shackles on.

事实上，考虑到戴着镣铐跑步等限制，他们能够集中注意力也许是一个奇迹。

Yeah, I, I mean, look, we're used to this with physical stuff, right?

是的，我，我的意思是，看，我们已经习惯了实体的东西，对吧？

If, if we analogize to physical fitness, we're so used to all this details, right?

如果，如果我们类比身体健康，我们已经习惯了所有这些细节，对吗？

Like it matters like what you're eating, like how you're sleeping, the details of how you train and when you train and how much like we're very used to this idea that that really matters.

就像你吃什么、你怎么睡觉、你如何训练、何时训练的细节以及我们是否已经习惯了这个真正重要的想法一样，这些都很重要。

We have no intuitions for cognitive development or application.

我们对认知发展或应用没有直觉。

We, we like treat our brain, I guess because we associate it so much with a sense of self.

我们，我们喜欢对待我们的大脑，我想是因为我们将它与自我意识联系在一起。

It's just this sort of ineffable connection to us as a person.

这就是我们作为一个人的这种不可言喻的联系。

We don't think of it as much of an organ as like a muscle or something like this.

我们并不认为它是一个器官，而是像肌肉或类似的东西。

But we don't have a sophisticated vocabulary at all for thinking about how do you do stuff with your brain?

但我们根本没有复杂的词汇来思考如何用大脑做事？

Which is the, if you're in knowledge, work, that's the whole game.

如果你有知识，有工作，那就是整个游戏。

Like the whole game is, this brain takes an information, adds value to it.

就像整个游戏一样，这个大脑接收信息并为其增加价值。

It alchemists value out of, out of mind stuff and people who, who alchemy value out of, you know, muscles.

炼金术士看重的是头脑之外的东西，炼金术士看重的是肌肉。

I'm a relief pitcher in baseball.

我是棒球的替补投手。

I know like my whole job is like to take a certain muscles on my kinetic chain and use them to move a ball very fast.

我知道我的整个工作就像是在我的动力链上使用某些肌肉并用它们来快速移动球。

And if I, if I really am very careful about this, I can have a multimillion dollar deal.

如果我真的非常小心的话，我就能达成一笔数百万美元的交易。

Those of us who do this with our brain don't have any of these intuitions.

我们这些用大脑做这件事的人没有任何这些直觉。

It's just like, you know, you have to work hard, you know, and we're on our phone all day.

就像，你知道，你必须努力工作，你知道，而我们整天都在打电话。

I mean, this has to be the physical equivalent if you had like an endurance athlete who was smoking all the time, like this is crazy.

我的意思是，如果你像一位一直吸烟的耐力运动员一样，这必须是身体上的等价物，就像这很疯狂。

Like this is directly counter in intricating or indicating, what you need to do, what matters like what, what the actual activity is that matters for your value production.

这与复杂或指示您需要做什么、什么重要、什么实际活动对您的价值生产重要相反。

But with cognitive stuff, we have no intuition like this.

但对于认知事物，我们没有这样的直觉。

Yeah.

是的。

When I was a junior professor, this was down in San Diego, not Stanford, my girlfriend at the time, she said to me, she said you, you're like a professional athlete that was before I got tenure and she was like, and you, you're trying to go from like minor leagues to major, go from, you know, you know, like second string to, to starter.

当我还是一名初级教授时，这是在圣地亚哥，而不是斯坦福，当时我的女朋友，她对我说，她说你，你就像一个在我获得终身教职之前的职业运动员，她就像，你，你试图从小联盟到大联盟，从，你知道，你知道，从第二线到首发。

So you have to treat what you're doing like a professional athlete with their, their, their game.

所以你必须像职业运动员一样对待你正在做的事情，对待他们的比赛。

Like prioritize sleep, prioritize food, prioritize time, prioritize, you know, it's, and we, as you point out, we don't do that with the mind.

就像优先考虑睡眠，优先考虑食物，优先考虑时间，优先考虑，你知道，是的，正如你所指出的，我们不会用思想来做到这一点。

We, we tend for cognitive stuff, we tend to assume that we just flip a switch and like focus time.

我们，我们倾向于认知的东西，我们倾向于假设我们只是按下开关并且喜欢专注时间。

And I think that's in part because there are certain things such as Social Media, such as a great movie, such as certain social interactions that can immediately and completely harness our attention unlike a marathoner where sure, I could probably finish the 26 miles or wherever it is 26.23.

我认为这部分是因为有些东西，比如社交媒体，比如一部伟大的电影，比如某些社交互动，可以立即完全地利用我们的注意力，不像马拉松运动员，当然，我可以跑完 26 英里或任何 26.23 英里的地方。

I forget what it is.

我忘记那是什么了。

If I had to do it right now to save my life, but it's not like I can just hit a switch and, and, and I think that's the, that's the kind of caveat here is that the kid that loves video games can definitely focus, give him or her a video game they love and boom, they're focused.

如果我现在必须这样做才能挽救我的生命，但这并不是说我可以按一下开关，而且我认为这就是这里的警告，喜欢电子游戏的孩子绝对可以集中注意力，给他或她一个他们喜欢的电子游戏，他们会专注。

So it seems as if there's a problem when they can't.

所以，当他们做不到的时候，似乎就有问题了。

But they know they can, right is, is stuff's obvious when one states it.

但他们知道他们可以，对吧，当人们说出这一点时，事情是显而易见的。

But I think it's worth pointing out that this stuff needs attention, it needs, it needs work.

但我认为值得指出的是，这些东西需要关注，需要，需要工作。

Which means and it starts with vocabulary, it starts with intention, it starts with examples, you know, I mean, there should be a book like how to think that we just give to everyone can learn and learn, right?

这意味着它从词汇开始，从意图开始，从例子开始，你知道，我的意思是，应该有一本像如何认为我们只是给每个人都可以学习和学习的书，对吗？

Yeah, like how to use your brain, like the user manual, you know, like that would be a very useful user manual.

是的，就像如何使用你的大脑，就像用户手册一样，你知道，这将是一本非常有用的用户手册。

And I think in like elite cognitive professions, this gets handed down as law and people figure it out, right?

我认为在精英认知职业中，这会作为法律流传下来，人们会弄清楚，对吗？

I mean, like this was like my experience training at MIT and the theory group is that, you know, everything was focused on getting the most out of your mind.

我的意思是，这就像我在麻省理工学院接受培训的经历一样，理论小组的观点是，你知道，一切都集中在充分发挥你的思想上。

And so it's been passed down from, you know, person to person.

所以它是从一个人传到另一个人的。

It was also in the culture, it was in the way that people acted.

这也存在于文化中，存在于人们的行为方式中。

But most places that do cognitive work don't have these don't have these cultures.

但大多数从事认知工作的地方都没有这些文化。

Yeah.

是的。

But here's the advantage though, here, like here's the silver lining, right?

但这就是优势，就像这是一线希望，对吧？

If you're one of the few who cares about it, it's a huge advantage right now.

如果您是少数关心它的人之一，那么现在这是一个巨大的优势。

Like it's a, it's a big part of like my success.

就像它一样，这是我成功的重要组成部分。

I, I don't think I have the highest horsepower brain but like it, I care a lot about trying to, you know, get the most out of it, like to push it to like the edges of like the reps.

我，我不认为我拥有最高马力的大脑，但喜欢它，我非常关心尝试，你知道，充分利用它，喜欢将它推到像代表一样的边缘。

I can, I can actually R PM si can actually get out of it, you know, so it's an advantage as you know, someone who is listening to this, you start caring about your brain, how it works, how you want to take care of it, what you want to get out of it, you start caring about this.

我可以，我实际上可以 R PM si 实际上可以摆脱它，你知道，所以这是一个优势，你知道，有人在听这个，你开始关心你的大脑，它是如何工作的，你想如何照顾它，你想从中得到什么，你开始关心这个。

You're gonna get advantages compared to the person right next to you.

与你旁边的人相比，你会获得优势。

Like suddenly in your office or, you know, in, in, in your grad program, it's gonna be like what's going on here superpower.

就像突然在你的办公室里，或者，你知道，在你的研究生课程中，这就像超级大国正在发生的事情一样。

And sometimes there's a bit of a social cost upfront when I made the shift from being a, let's just call it a not serious student to a serious student in college.

有时，当我从一个不认真的学生转变为认真的大学学生时，会预先产生一些社会成本。

And I was coming from behind, I had to put so many more hours in and so partying was this something happened fairly seldom.

我后来居上，我不得不投入更多的时间，所以聚会这种事情很少发生。

I still did it.

我还是这么做了。

But, and it was isolating.

但是，它是孤立的。

You actually lived alone in a studio apartment.

你实际上独自一人住在单间公寓里。

I mean, it's isolating there.

我的意思是，那里很孤立。

You're, you're gonna miss out on certain things there, there's some deprivation there.

你会错过那里的某些东西，那里有一些剥夺。

But, you eventually end up in a position to do far more with your life.

但是，你最终会在生活中做更多的事情。

Of course, what, you said a moment ago also reminds me David Goggins, the David Goggins.

当然，什么，你刚才说的也让我想起了大卫·戈金斯，那个大卫·戈金斯。

No, no introduction needed.

不，不需要介绍。

Has been quoted as saying, you know, it's easy nowadays to be exceptional because so many people are just distracted and, and wasting their time.

有人说，你知道，现在很容易变得与众不同，因为很多人只是分心，浪费时间。

So you put in 20% more effort to be more focused or toward, toward your fitness program and you're gonna, you're gonna surpass many, many people.

所以你多付出 20% 的努力来更加专注，或者朝着你的健身计划努力，你就会超越很多很多人。

So, it's not that hard to accelerate.

所以，加速并不是那么难。

It's just, it, it takes some practices that are, socially challenging to implement.

只是，它需要一些对社会具有挑战性的实践来实施。

It's, it's funny.

这是，这很有趣。

I had that same experience as an undergrad that you had.

我作为一名本科生，也有过和你一样的经历。

Yeah, because I cared, I was impatient to be done with college and like to do things with my brain.

是的，因为我关心，所以我迫不及待地想完成大学学业，喜欢用我的大脑做事。

I wanted to be a writer.

我想成为一名作家。

I want to be an academic but, you know, that takes a lot of work and I, I really cared a lot about it.

我想成为一名学者，但是，你知道，这需要做很多工作，而我，我真的很关心它。

So I was a, I was a fraternity brother for one day and I went to the first meeting where they're doing, you know, he was held up pledging or whatever and I remember I was just not for me.

所以我是，有一天，我是兄弟会的兄弟，我参加了他们正在做的第一次会议，你知道，他被推迟了宣誓或其他什么，我记得我只是不适合我。

And I walked away, I was like, I'm not gonna, because this is gonna be distracting like the hangovers and this and that and, and, you know, I want to focus on writing.

我走开了，我想，我不会，因为这会像宿醉一样分散注意力，还有，你知道，我想专注于写作。

I want to learn how to do this.

我想学习如何做到这一点。

It is pretty isolating.

这是相当孤立的。

Yeah.

是的。

And I know some people that were in the Greek system that also benefited tremendously from that.

我知道希腊体系中的一些人也从中受益匪浅。

I, I wasn't one of them.

我，我不是他们中的一员。

But, I, I definitely with it.

但是，我，我绝对同意。

Not everyone.

不是每个人。

Yeah.

是的。

I mean, I just, like, they don't all have to be as you and I were.

我的意思是，我只是喜欢，他们不必都像你和我一样。

But, but caring about your brain, it gives you a lot of options.

但是，但是关心你的大脑，它会给你很多选择。

And if you're playing catch up it, there's almost always a social cost associated with it, but you eventually are joined by many other people.

如果你想追赶它，几乎总会有与之相关的社会成本，但最终你会被许多其他人加入。

You find the other nerds that there's a lot of the other, the other nerds misfits and people who, who are, who are, you know, seeking something.

你会发现其他书呆子，还有很多其他的书呆子，其他书呆子不合群，你知道，那些人正在寻找某些东西。

They, they come around, you, you, you find them, I'm interested in this concept of burnout.

他们，他们出现，你，你，你找到他们，我对倦怠这个概念很感兴趣。

We hear about burnout.

我们听说过职业倦怠。

We associate with it too much adrenaline, lack of sleep, tired and wired, feeling disengaged.

我们会联想到太多的肾上腺素、睡眠不足、疲倦和紧张、感觉脱节。

The, the poet David White has a beautiful poem.

诗人大卫·怀特有一首美丽的诗。

I forget the title about Burnout where he says that, that I think the Cure to burn out is wholeheartedness.

我忘记了《倦怠》的标题，他说，我认为治愈倦怠的方法是全心全意。

And I al I always like that.

我一直喜欢这样。

It's a bit more abstract than the kinds of things we're talking about today.

它比我们今天讨论的事情更抽象一些。

But I like that because there's something about wholeheartedness, really leaning into something with, with the, the true desire to be there and to explore it no matter how hard that is.

但我喜欢这样，因为有一些关于全心全意的东西，真正倾向于某件事，带着真正的愿望去那里并探索它，无论有多困难。

The opposite extreme of burnout.

倦怠的相反极端。

Yeah.

是的。

Well, I mean, I think burnout in, if we're thinking knowledge work like people with office jobs.

嗯，我的意思是，如果我们像办公室工作的人一样思考知识工作，我认为就会出现倦怠。

My diagnosis there, it's not exactly quantity of work that, that does play a role.

我的诊断是，真正起作用的并不完全是工作量。

It's the kind of work because I, I think what's happening, what, what's been deranging actually for people in these jobs is workloads are getting larger right, in part because communication is low friction and we always want to be demonstrating activity because of pseudo productivity and people are always asking us to do things.

这是这样的工作，因为我认为正在发生的事情，对从事这些工作的人来说，真正令人不安的是工作量越来越大，部分原因是沟通摩擦力低，我们总是想展示活动，因为伪生产力，人们总是要求我们做事。

We say yes, everything we say yes to brings with it administrative overhead, right?

我们说“是”，我们说“是”的一切都会带来管理开销，对吧？

Which is talking about the thing but not actually doing it.

这是说说而已，但没有实际去做。

So it's like emails about the commitment, it's a meetings about the commitment.

所以这就像关于承诺的电子邮件，这是关于承诺的会议。

Because our workloads are larger.

因为我们的工作量比较大。

What happens then is more and more of our time has to service this administrative overhead because everything we say yes to brings with it its own overhead, it adds up, it aggregates, right?

然后会发生的事情是，我们越来越多的时间必须用于处理这种管理开销，因为我们说“是”的一切都会带来它自己的开销，它会加起来，它会聚合，对吗？

So now more and more of our day is spent talking about work and not actually doing the work and then make it even worse.

所以现在我们一天中越来越多的时间都花在谈论工作上，而不是真正去做工作，然后让事情变得更糟。

It's not like this overhead is all batched together, it's sort of spread out throughout your day.

这些开销并不是全部集中在一起，而是分散在您的一天中。

So it's also putting you in that state of constant distraction, which makes it hard to do work.

因此，它也会让你处于持续分心的状态，从而很难完成工作。

What I think is burning people out is they're now in this state where they're saying I'm spending most of my day talking about work, sending emails, attending meetings, very little time is left to actually make progress on the work.

我认为让人们精疲力尽的是他们现在处于这种状态，他们说我一天的大部分时间都在谈论工作、发送电子邮件、参加会议，几乎没有时间真正在工作上取得进展。

And then the the workload gets larger and larger.

然后工作量就越来越大。

This by itself is deranging, right?

这本身就很混乱，对吧？

This it feels like you're in some sort of nihilistic experiment like what, what is this?

这感觉就像你正在进行某种虚无主义的实验，就像什么，这是什么？

Why do I have six hours in meetings?

为什么我有六个小时的会议时间？

I'm not actually, this can't be the right way to work.

实际上我不是，这不是正确的工作方式。

And then what happens, of course is you have to recover time in the morning, in the afternoon, maybe after your kids go to bed to try to actually make progress.

当然，接下来会发生的事情是，你必须在早上、下午，也许在你的孩子上床睡觉后恢复时间，努力取得真正的进步。

So now you also have just a straight work quantity issue.

所以现在你还面临一个直接的工作量问题。

So you're working more hours, there's an energy drain.

所以你工作的时间更长，就会出现能量消耗。

But I think that psychological piece of this can't possibly make sense that like I'm checking email once every two minutes and spent six hours in zoom like doing very little actual high value work like this can't be the right way to work.

但我认为这在心理上是不可能的，就像我每两分钟检查一次电子邮件并在变焦中花费六个小时一样，几乎没有做任何实际的高价值工作，这样的工作方式不可能是正确的。

That's what I think the burnout epidemic right now is coming from is is that psychological component of.

我认为现在流行的职业倦怠就是源于心理因素。

We all know this is stupid but no one is saying the emperor has no clothes on.

我们都知道这很愚蠢，但没有人说皇帝没穿衣服。

We all know that the amount of email and meetings I'm doing is such a waste of my salary.

我们都知道我正在处理的大量电子邮件和会议简直就是浪费我的薪水。

Like this is a highly trained brain like I could be writing these reports or this code or creating these business strategies.

就像这是一个训练有素的大脑，就像我可以编写这些报告或代码或创建这些业务策略一样。

But we're all just accepting this.

但我们都只是接受这一点。

So I think the absurdity of the current situation is creating as much of the burnout as it is just, we also have to add these extra hours.

所以我认为当前情况的荒谬正在造成尽可能多的倦怠，我们还必须增加这些额外的时间。

There's just like a straight aggregation of work quantity.

这就像工作量的直接汇总。

It's almost analogous to taking professional athletes or would be professional athletes and having them do a bunch of other physical labor so that they're showing up not fresh for the game and little micro injuries and distracted and, and.

这几乎类似于让职业运动员或将要成为职业运动员的人做一堆其他体力劳动，这样他们在比赛中就表现得不新鲜，而且很少有微伤和分心，而且，而且。

No one's admitting that this doesn't make sense and everyone's just getting injured and no one's talking about it.

没有人承认这没有意义，每个人都受伤了，却没有人谈论它。

So it's the absurdity of it would drive people crazy and it is driving people crazy.

所以它的荒谬性会让人们发疯，而且它正在让人们发疯。

It, it's so difficult though because certain things like smartphones are very useful on the hospital ward.

但这非常困难，因为智能手机等某些东西在医院病房中非常有用。

I mean, doctors can communicate, nurses communicate so much faster now.

我的意思是，医生可以沟通，护士现在沟通得更快了。

Parents and kids can communicate who's going to pick up the kids.

父母和孩子可以沟通谁来接孩子。

Nope got stuck in traffic.

没有遇到交通堵塞。

You go this way, alternate route on Google maps and and on and on.

你走这条路，在谷歌地图上交替路线等等。

So it's all woven in with stuff that's, that's also highly adaptive.

所以这一切都与具有高度适应性的东西交织在一起。

It makes it tough, you know, it's almost like the work of being a selective filter is half the work of trying to de load the cognitive systems that would allow you to do deep.

这让事情变得很困难，你知道，这几乎就像成为一个选择性过滤器的工作是试图减轻认知系统负担的工作的一半，这将使你能够进行深入的工作。

Work well in in the workplace.

在工作场所工作得很好。

It's even harder than that, right?

比这更难，对吧？

Because because part of the issue is email and slack, let's just say digital communication.

因为问题的一部分是电子邮件和松弛，所以我们只说数字通信。

I spent a lot of time studying that closely, right from like a techno critic standpoint, the introduction of digital communication to the workplace.

我花了很多时间从技术评论家的角度仔细研究数字通信在工作场所的引入。

And the problem there is the reason why we're checking this all the time.

问题在于我们一直在检查这个问题。

It's not some like individual habit de optimization, it's not oh I should just check this less often.

这不是个人习惯优化，不是哦，我应该少检查一下。

What happened is when we introduce low friction digital communication to the office, this emerging consensus came about that said, great.

所发生的情况是，当我们在办公室引入低摩擦数字通信时，这种新兴的共识就出现了，这很棒。

Let's just use ad hoc messaging as our major way of collaborating.

让我们使用临时消息传递作为我们的主要协作方式。

Like we can just figure things out on the fly.

就像我们可以即时解决问题一样。

I can just be like Andrew, what's going on with the whatever and you can answer me and I can send it back.

我可以像安德鲁一样，无论发生什么事情，你都可以回答我，我可以将其发回。

This was very convenient, the activation cost was low.

这样非常方便，开通成本低。

And so this is how we began actually collaborating on work.

这就是我们开始实际合作工作的方式。

Now what happens is as workloads get higher.

现在发生的情况是工作负载越来越高。

We now have many things.

我们现在有很多东西。

At the same time, they're all generating these asynchronous back and forth conversations.

与此同时，他们都在生成这些异步来回对话。

Most of these have some sort of time sensitivity, right?

其中大多数都有某种时间敏感性，对吧？

So if I email you and say like what's going on with like the guests coming later today, we have to kind of resolve this before, later today.

因此，如果我给您发电子邮件并说今天晚些时候来的客人发生了什么事，我们必须在今天晚些时候之前解决这个问题。

So now it's not just that these messages are going back and forth with all these different threads, but I have to keep checking my inbox to make sure the gap's not too big.

所以现在不仅仅是这些消息在所有这些不同的线程中来回传递，而且我必须不断检查我的收件箱以确保差距不会太大。

This is not a failure of habits, it's not a moral failure.

这不是习惯的失败，也不是道德的失败。

It's necessitated by the fact that all these back and forth conversations have to keep moving forward.

这是因为所有这些来来回回的对话都必须继续向前推进。

So it is difficult then if you're in this system to step out by yourself, because this is the way we're collaborating is these asynchronous back and forth messages.

因此，如果您在这个系统中独自走出去，就很困难，因为这是我们协作的方式，就是这些异步来回消息。

And I can't disengage myself from that without slowing things down like from a like a mathematical game theory point of view, it's a suboptimal mass equilibrium.

如果不放慢速度，我就无法摆脱这一点，就像从数学博弈论的角度来看，这是一种次优的质量平衡。

It's not the right place, not the right way to, to run this to con the the utility value of this configuration is low, but no one individual can deploy a different strategy that's gonna be higher value, we're stuck in it, right?

这不是正确的地方，不是正确的方式，运行这个配置的实用价值很低，但没有人可以部署一种不同的策略，这将是更高的价值，我们被困在其中，对吧？

And so now it becomes really hard for an individual just to say I want to check my email as often.

因此，现在对于一个人来说，仅仅说我想经常检查我的电子邮件变得非常困难。

It it's built in systemically into this hyperactive hive mind workflow.

它系统地内置于这个过度活跃的蜂巢思维工作流程中。

And the only way to break free from the suboptimal configuration is to basically have the organization itself do like a really high cost change to the rules of the game.

摆脱次优配置的唯一方法就是让组织本身对游戏规则进行真正高成本的改变。

These are how we're collaborating.

这些就是我们的合作方式。

Now we're not using email freely anymore.

现在我们不再自由地使用电子邮件。

We're going to use this system instead here, you, you it's a very expensive top down procedure to free ourselves from the sub optimality.

我们将在这里使用这个系统，你，你这是一个非常昂贵的自上而下的过程，可以使我们摆脱次优性。

It's like in the world of work that's partially why this is such an intractable problem.

就像在工作世界中一样，这也是这个问题如此棘手的部分原因。

And I, I tried to write a book about this recently.

我最近试图写一本关于这个的书。

And it was really hard to gain traction because it's not easy to solve this.

想要获得关注真的很难，因为解决这个问题并不容易。

Like no individual can move out of this and you have to put in a lot of energy as an organization to try to, to change this.

就像没有人可以摆脱这种情况一样，作为一个组织，你必须投入大量的精力来尝试改变这种情况。

So it's in some sense, email is a a more insidious problem than Social Media on the phone because at least over here, this is my engagement with this and I might have these moderate behavioral addictions, but I could make differences here in my company.

所以从某种意义上说，电子邮件是一个比电话上的社交媒体更隐蔽的问题，因为至少在这里，这是我的参与，我可能有这些适度的行为成瘾，但我可以在我的公司里做出改变。

Oh, this is much worse.

哦，这更糟糕。

This is like a systemic problem.

这就像一个系统性问题。

It's an emergent deterministic work impact on a economic, social cultural system that was completely dynamical and went in a way we didn't really expect.

这是对经济、社会文化体系的一种新兴的确定性工作影响，这种影响是完全动态的，并且以一种我们没有真正预料到的方式发生。

So it's, it's a, it's a really tough situation sometimes, especially in the world of work.

所以，有时情况真的很艰难，尤其是在工作领域。

How do we get out of this constant distraction?

我们怎样才能摆脱这种持续的干扰呢？

It's why, you know, I wrote deep work and I was like, well, why don't people just do this?

这就是为什么，你知道，我写了一些深入的工作，我想，好吧，为什么人们不这样做呢？

That's why they don't just do this because it's not so easy to, to reclaim this time.

这就是为什么他们不这样做，因为这一次要收回来并不那么容易。

Well, it's like, when I was a graduate student in postdoc, I was focused on eating pretty well, meaning just clean ish food and, people talked less about that at that time.

嗯，就像，当我还是一名博士后研究生时，我专注于吃得很好，也就是说只吃干净的食物，当时人们很少谈论这一点。

I was also really committed to exercise since I was 16.

从 16 岁起，我就非常致力于锻炼身体。

People were less committed to that in the academic sector at that time.

当时人们对学术界的投入较少。

Now, I think it's commonplace for people.

现在，我认为这对人们来说是司空见惯的。

Like I'm going to my yoga class, I'm doing my zone two cardio.

就像我要去上瑜伽课一样，我正在做第二区有氧运动。

I go to the gym, you know, men and women do this, you know, I remember having like this, like sneak off to the gym, like, oh yeah.

我去健身房，你知道，男人和女人都这样做，你知道，我记得有过这样的经历，比如偷偷去健身房，就像，哦，是的。

And, you know, you felt like a bit of a, of an oddball if you were the one bringing your lunch to the, the, you know, the pizza luncheon.

而且，你知道，如果你是那个带午餐去披萨午餐会的人，你会觉得自己有点奇怪。

Now there's anything wrong with pizza.

现在披萨出了问题。

I love pizza, but I was trying to eat, well, I have for a long time.

我喜欢披萨，但我想吃，嗯，我已经吃了很长时间了。

I feel better when I do and I'm grateful that I did.

当我这么做的时候，我感觉好多了，我很感激我这么做了。

But you get some weird looks like, oh, do you have an eating disorder or something like that?

但你会看到一些奇怪的表情，比如，哦，你有饮食失调或类似的东西吗？

That's what people would say then.

那时人们会这么说。

Now people would probably look, you know, that looks better than the pizza people start to understand.

现在人们可能会觉得，你知道，这看起来比人们开始理解的披萨更好。

So I think there needs to be a cultural shift.

所以我认为需要进行文化转变。

And I think there has been a cultural shift around food and exercise, certainly, food, meditation, sleep.

我认为围绕食物和锻炼，当然还有食物、冥想、睡眠，文化发生了转变。

I think people are far more accepting and actually encouraging of their workers and coworkers taking really good care in order to function better for longer.

我认为，人们更加接受并实际上鼓励他们的员工和同事认真照顾，以便更好地工作更长的时间。

Yeah, I think this is gonna be the next revolution and it's gonna be a revolution.

是的，我认为这将是下一次革命，而且将是一场革命。

It's gonna unlock, we're talking on the scale of like a trillion dollar GB P.

它将会解锁，我们谈论的是万亿美元英镑的规模。

When we go through knowledge work and have this revolution, I call it like the cognitive revolution.

当我们进行知识工作并进行这场革命时，我将其称为认知革命。

Let's take really seriously how the brains of our workers work.

让我们认真对待我们员工的大脑是如何工作的。

Like these are our number one assets.

这些都是我们的第一资产。

Like not to be too mechanistic about it.

喜欢不要太机械化。

But what is our main capital asset?

但我们的主要资本资产是什么？

If we're a knowledge work organization, we have some buildings, but it's really these brains that we have like employment contracts with these brains create value.

如果我们是一个知识工作组织，我们有一些建筑物，但实际上我们拥有的这些大脑就像与这些大脑的雇佣合同一样创造了价值。

Let's take seriously how the brains actually operate.

让我们认真考虑一下大脑的实际运作方式。

And as soon as we do, we'll say, oh my God, these brains are checking email once every two minutes.

一旦我们这样做，我们就会说，天哪，这些大脑每两分钟检查一次电子邮件。

What a disaster.

真是一场灾难。

It's like if we had a car factory and we spent $20 million on one of these German robots that can, you know, put cars on the doors or whatever and we just weren't taking care of it and it was like rusty and it was dropping the doors and the production pipeline was going down.

就好像我们有一家汽车工厂，我们花了 2000 万美元买了一台德国机器人，你知道，它可以把汽车放在门上或其他什么东西，但我们只是没有照顾它，它就像生锈了一样，门掉落了，生产管道也瘫痪了。

It was like, this is crazy.

就像，这太疯狂了。

We got to take care of this equipment, right?

我们必须照顾好这些设备，对吗？

When we have the cognitive revolution, the sort of cognitive capital revolution and knowledge work, I think it's gonna unlock a trillion dollar GDP.

当我们进行认知革命，即认知资本革命和知识工作时，我认为它将释放一万亿美元的GDP。

I think that's how unproductive we've been.

我认为这就是我们效率低下的原因。

If we just think in the pure raw terms of brains producing stuff that's worth money, like if it's like super deterministic and kind of inhumane about it, So much is being lost because we're in the suboptimal mass equilibrium.

如果我们只是从大脑生产有价值的东西的纯粹原始角度思考，就像它是超级确定性的并且有点不人道一样，那么我们就会失去很多东西，因为我们处于次优的质量平衡中。

So everyone just email everyone all the time, everyone's just on slack all the time that when we finally have the revolution to get over that it's gonna be a massive economic hit.

所以每个人都一直在给每个人发电子邮件，每个人都一直在懈怠，当我们最终通过革命来克服这一点时，这将是一个巨大的经济打击。

And you know, a I might play a role in this, right?

你知道，我可能会在其中发挥作用，对吧？

Because maybe A I, once it gets planning capabilities is gonna be able to take the burden of some of this back and forth planning.

因为也许人工智能一旦获得了规划能力，就能够承担一些来回规划的负担。

I think it's easier to get there with cultural shifts.

我认为通过文化转变更容易实现这一目标。

I don't think we have to wait to build an email capable chat GP T to do this.

我认为我们不必等待建立一个支持电子邮件的聊天 GP T 来做到这一点。

Like you could solve this tomorrow.

就像你明天就能解决这个问题一样。

This is cultural as much as this tool based.

这与基于工具的文化一样。

But I think it's gonna be a huge revolution when we get there akin to like the assembly line in manufacturing, which was like a 10 X improvement in productivity metrics.

但我认为，当我们到达那里时，这将是一场巨大的革命，就像制造业的装配线一样，生产力指标提高了 10 倍。

We figured out the continuous motion assembly line with interchangeable parts was a massive, it created this productivity engine.

我们发现具有可互换零件的连续运动装配线是一个巨大的，它创造了这个生产力引擎。

I'm using the economic sense of productivity now.

我现在用的是经济意义上的生产力。

You know, dollars per worker the economic miracle that came from this process based industrial innovations in the late 19th, early 20th century, that the money generated by that the wealth generated by that was the foundation of the modern West, like the whole world as we know it was built.

你知道，每个工人的美元是19世纪末20世纪初基于工业创新过程的经济奇迹，由此产生的金钱和由此产生的财富是现代西方的基础，就像我们所知道的整个世界一样。

So there's these huge latent potentials.

所以存在着巨大的潜在潜力。

And right now, I don't think we're there with the brain and I think it's going to be a huge revolution.

现在，我认为我们还没有大脑，我认为这将是一场巨大的革命。

It's just, it's just difficult, right?

只是，这很难，对吧？

It's not an easy revolution to start.

这不是一场容易开始的革命。

But I think it's gonna change whole industries in ways that we're not, it's gonna be hard to even imagine.

但我认为这将以我们无法做到的方式改变整个行业，这甚至很难想象。

Yeah.

是的。

And I think as long as there are individuals who either by virtue of lack of family or other constraints or by virtue of just having more energy and requiring less sleep because these individuals do exist out there.

我认为，只要有人因为缺乏家庭或其他限制，或者只是因为有更多的精力和需要更少的睡眠，因为这些人确实存在。

There will always be these individuals that can kind of apply themselves more than others in the sense that they can get in earlier and stay in later.

总会有一些人比其他人更努力，因为他们可以更早进入并更晚留下来。

And, and that trying to be them is not a good idea that we all need to optimize for our, you know, best balance of productivity, deep work and work life balance for lack of a, of a better term.

而且，试图成为他们并不是一个好主意，我们都需要优化生产力、深度工作和工作生活平衡的最佳平衡，因为缺乏更好的术语。

When I was a graduate student, I was really committed to my, my craft and I remember that hearing about a student, he's now a professor, a very accomplished endocrinologist.

当我还是一名研究生时，我真的致力于我的技术，我记得听说过一个学生，他现在是一名教授，一位非常有成就的内分泌学家。

I'll just give him a name because he, he did this thing.

我会给他一个名字，因为他做了这件事。

He doesn't know me.

他不认识我。

But I heard about this guy that had been in the department, Randy Nelson and everyone was like, he used to work 100 hours a week.

但我听说过这个部门的那个人，Randy Nelson，每个人都说，他过去每周工作 100 个小时。

So I was like, all right, great.

所以我就想，好吧，太棒了。

I'm gonna start logging my work hours silently.

我要开始默默地记录我的工作时间。

I'm gonna do 100 and two hours and I ended up with a flu and an autoimmune condition.

我本来打算做 100 个小时又两个小时，结果我得了流感和自身免疫性疾病。

I literally had an autoimmune condition.

我确实患有自身免疫性疾病。

I've never had one since.

从那以后我再也没有拥有过。

And then I stopped working that much, started working quote unquote smarter along the lines of many of the things you're saying here, although I didn't implement or know about all these tools that time.

然后我停止了那么多工作，开始按照你在这里所说的许多事情更聪明地工作，尽管当时我没有实现或了解所有这些工具。

And of course, the autoimmune thing went away.

当然，自身免疫的东西消失了。

It was a fairly minor thing.

这是一件相当小事。

You never had it again, but you can destroy yourself simply by working more.

你再也没有拥有过它，但你可能会因为工作更多而毁掉自己。

Even if it's deep work so that the solution is not necessarily more, it's, just like with exercise, I guess that stands.

即使这是一项深入的工作，因此解决方案不一定更多，但就像锻炼一样，我想这是成立的。

It's obvious.

这是显而易见的。

But I, I thought I'd share that anecdote because, Randy Nelson taught me what I'm capable of and what I'm not capable of.

但我，我想我会分享这个轶事，因为兰迪·尼尔森教会了我什么是我能做的，什么是我不能做的。

The thing that happens by the way too.

顺便说一下，发生的事情也是如此。

It's not just who's capable of working more, get these advantages.

不仅仅是谁有能力工作更多，获得这些优势。

There's these other unpredictable inequities.

还有其他不可预测的不平等。

I talked to a law firm once years ago about deep work and I was invited by a group.

几年前，我和一家律师事务所谈过深度工作，并受到了一个团体的邀请。

It was actually a, a group of women lawyers who had a reading group.

它实际上是一个,一群女律师,有一个读书小组。

And they said part of what was happening at this law firm is that people who were disagreeable, like just sort of gruff and jerks would get asked to do less of what they would call non promotable activities or can you organize this or whatever?

他们说，这家律师事务所发生的事情的一部分是，那些不愉快的人，比如粗鲁和混蛋，会被要求少做一些他们所谓的非促销活动，或者你能组织这样的活动吗？

Which meant they had more time to do deep work, which meant they would do better and they would rise faster.

这意味着他们有更多的时间进行深度工作，这意味着他们会做得更好，进步也会更快。

And then what was happening then was you had accidentally built a system that said, let's make sure we have a fast track for like our most disagreeable employees to the partnership level where actually you need to be pretty agreeable because your client acquisition is really on the partners.

然后发生的事情是，你不小心建立了一个系统，说，让我们确保我们有一个快速通道，让我们最不愉快的员工进入合作伙伴级别，实际上你需要非常同意，因为你的客户获取实际上是在合作伙伴身上。

And so they accidentally had, you know, pushed towards this, this inequity and these type of inequities happen all the time when we leave it like haphazard and, ok.

所以他们不小心，你知道，推动了这一点，当我们随意地离开时，这种不平等和这些类型的不平等一直在发生，好吧。

So who's doing less work?

那么谁的工作量少呢？

Like, like, well, I just sort of like, I'm gruff and people don't like me or I have something going on at my house.

就像，就像，好吧，我只是有点喜欢，我很粗鲁，人们不喜欢我，或者我家里发生了一些事情。

That means I don't have the, the same time to do this.

这意味着我没有相同的时间来做这件事。

And you end up pushing people up these paths that might not be who you really want to select because you're selecting for, things that are sort of unrelated to their actual underlying talent or like how much they can actually produce.

你最终将人们推向这些可能不是你真正想要选择的人，因为你选择的东西与他们的实际潜在才能或与他们实际能产生多少无关。

And so I'm, I'm, I'm with you on that.

所以我、我、我同意你的观点。

Yeah, it's a complex problem, but attractable one.

是的，这是一个复杂的问题，但却很有吸引力。

Nonetheless, I'm interested in your thoughts on remote work versus in person work and the hybrid model.

尽管如此，我对您对远程工作与面对面工作以及混合模式的想法感兴趣。

I've heard about a hybrid model recently, a friend who owns a big, record company here in Los Angeles so that, they require one in person day per week unless on sick leave.

我最近听说了一种混合模式，一位朋友在洛杉矶拥有一家大型唱片公司，因此，除非请病假，否则他们每周需要一天一次。

They require one at home day per week and then the other day it's at your discretion.

他们要求每周在家一天，然后另一天由您自行决定。

It's kind of an interesting model in a five day week model.

这是五天周模型中的一个有趣的模型。

I mean, my, my proposals have, I thought about this a lot is ok if you're gonna do hybrid work.

我的意思是，我的建议是，如果你要做混合工作，我想了很多，这是可以的。

And I, I proposed this in Atlantic article recently, which created some positive, some negative ways.

我呢,我最近在大西洋月刊的文章里提出了这个,它创造了一些积极的,一些消极的方式。

I was like, here's the way you should do it, synchronize the schedule.

我当时想，这就是你应该做的事情，同步时间表。

Here's at home days, here's an office days, but for everybody, for everybody or have a few of these schedules.

这是在家的日子，这是办公室的日子，但对于每个人来说，对于每个人来说，或者都有一些这样的时间表。

But like groups of people who work together have the same schedule, but then make the rule at home days.

但就像一群一起工作的人有相同的时间表，但然后在家里制定规则。

No meetings, no email.

没有会议，没有电子邮件。

Like that's the way to really get the full benefit out of hybrid work.

这就是真正从混合工作中获得全部好处的方法。

When we're in the office, we have meetings and we can talk about work and we're at home, we're just doing work and we can do it without distraction and we can just stay deep and really churn through things.

当我们在办公室时，我们开会，我们可以讨论工作；当我们在家时，我们只是在做工作，我们可以心无旁骛地完成工作，我们可以保持深度，真正地处理事情。

I think it would really make a big difference on the overload issue.

我认为这确实会对过载问题产生很大影响。

I think it would be much more sustainable remote work.

我认为这将是更加可持续的远程工作。

So I did a lot of coverage of remote work as this was first emerging, the early pandemic there, I became convinced I was doing this twice a month column for the New Yorker back then.

因此，我对远程工作进行了大量报道，因为这是第一次出现，那里的早期大流行，我确信当时我每个月为《纽约客》做两次专栏。

That was just looking at the pandemic, transforming work.

那只是在关注大流行病，改变工作。

And I came away with the idea that remote work can be fantastic, but it's difficult and it can't just be do the job you were doing in person, but just do it at home and we have zoom and we'll figure it out.

我得出这样的想法：远程工作可能很棒，但它很困难，而且不能只是亲自完成你正在做的工作，而只是在家里做，我们有变焦，我们会解决它。

Like if you're going to be fully remote, we have to rethink what work means for that.

就像如果你要完全远程办公，我们就必须重新思考工作对此意味着什么。

And there's a lot of differences, it needs to have, it needs to be way more structured, it probably needs to be.

并且有很多差异，它需要有，它需要更加结构化，它可能需要如此。

You're working on less things.

你正在做更少的事情。

It's very clear what you're working on.

你在做什么非常清楚。

The collaboration is much more defined and much less frequent.

合作更加明确，而且频率也低得多。

You probably need to be freed from the sort of hyperactive hive my dance.

你可能需要从那种过度活跃的蜂巢中解脱出来，我的舞蹈。

If we're just emailing each other all day and in zoom meetings all day, you have to sort of recon constitute what a remote work job is.

如果我们只是整天互相发送电子邮件并整天参加 Zoom 会议，那么您就必须了解什么是远程工作。

I think before it works.

我想在它发挥作用之前。

And we know this in part because software developers pre pandemic were one of the only knowledge sectors to have a, a really successful track record with remote work.

我们知道这一点，部分原因是大流行前的软件开发人员是唯一在远程工作方面拥有真正成功记录的知识部门之一。

That is the only sector within knowledge work where we had large companies fully remote.

这是知识工作中唯一一个让大公司完全远程办公的部门。

They did that because their jobs, they, they had really structured them around these, these agile workload management systems where OK, here's when we talk about work, here's how long it takes.

他们这样做是因为他们的工作，他们，他们实际上是围绕这些敏捷的工作负载管理系统构建的，好吧，当我们谈论工作时，这就是它需要多长时间。

Here's how we assign you new work.

以下是我们为您分配新工作的方式。

You work on one thing at a time, you sprint till it's done.

你一次只做一件事，冲刺直到完成。

They had all this structure around work which then it didn't really matter if you're in the office or not.

他们的所有结构都围绕着工作，那么你是否在办公室并不重要。

So the the less structured work is the more free for all the more you need, we have to be in the office.

因此，结构化的工作越自由，你需要的就越多，我们就必须在办公室里。

So like I'm a huge fan of full time remote work.

就像我非常喜欢全职远程工作一样。

But I think those jobs have to look very different than like a standard 2019 job.

但我认为这些工作必须与 2019 年的标准工作有很大不同。

Yeah, I've always done a hybrid of remote work.

是的，我一直在进行混合远程工作。

I used to take Wednesday mornings at home from the lab.

我过去常常每周三早上从实验室回家。

But nowadays it's wild because especially during the pandemic, but still now, I mean, you can do the whole day in pajamas and getting work done.

但现在它很疯狂，因为特别是在大流行期间，但我的意思是，现在你仍然可以穿着睡衣完成一整天的工作。

And I love this idea of no no email and limiting text and Social Media while at home doing work to really extract the most out of it.

我喜欢这种在家里工作时禁止发送电子邮件并限制文本和社交媒体的想法，以真正从中获得最大收益。

Are there any data maybe from the pandemic era or prior or beyond about zoom and things like it in terms of how they enhance or diminish or perhaps have no effect on productivity like Zoom specifically and, and meetings.

是否有任何来自大流行时代或之前或之后的有关 Zoom 和类似事物的数据，说明它们如何增强或减弱，或者可能对 Zoom 特别是生产力和会议没有影响。

I mean, we just found ourselves in zoom all the time for a while.

我的意思是，我们发现自己有一段时间一直处于变焦状态。

That was the bigger problem.

这是更大的问题。

I mean, so, so there is data that says for example, a hybrid meeting, some people are online, some people aren't, these are less effective meetings.

我的意思是，有数据表明，例如，混合会议，有些人在线，有些人不在线，这些都是效率较低的会议。

They don't, they don't work as well.

他们不这样做，他们的工作也不顺利。

But the bigger problem with zoom I think was the quantity and, and part of it was just the the technology involved, right?

但我认为变焦更大的问题是数量，其中一部分只是所涉及的技术，对吧？

So, so if we're in the office together and I have a relatively quick thing to talk to you about, I can just grab you and we can talk about this and, and the footprint is gonna be five minutes.

因此，如果我们一起在办公室，并且我有一个相对较快的事情要与您讨论，我可以抓住您，我们可以讨论这个问题，并且足迹将是五分钟。

That's not just that it's five minutes, it's five well allocated minutes because I'm probably going to use the social cues of your doors open or you're going to get coffee anyways, right?

这不仅仅是五分钟，而是五分钟分配得很好，因为我可能会利用你开门的社交暗示，或者无论如何你都会去喝咖啡，对吧？

In the Zoom era.

在变焦时代。

Instead, we would say, well, we should set up a meeting.

相反，我们会说，好吧，我们应该召开一次会议。

Right.

正确的。

Because, you know, we have to talk about this.

因为，你知道，我们必须讨论这个。

But if you think about a standard online calendar, it's difficult to have a meeting that's less than 30 minutes long.

但如果您考虑一下标准的在线日历，就很难召开少于 30 分钟的会议。

I mean, you just, you have to drag it, you know, I mean, 30 minutes is like the default, smallest length meeting.

我的意思是，你只是，你必须拖延它，你知道，我的意思是，30 分钟就像默认的、最小长度的会议。

So we're taking a lot of informal back and forth and inflating the time.

因此，我们进行了大量非正式的来回讨论，从而延长了时间。

I think that was part of it.

我认为这是其中的一部分。

So we just had too much zoom going on, right.

所以我们只是进行了太多的变焦，对吧。

If it was just, I do one meeting a week now.

如果可以的话，我现在每周开一次会。

It's on zoom.

它处于变焦状态。

It used to be in person.

以前都是面对面的。

We, we were all on zoom.

我们，我们都在变焦。

We used to all be in person.

我们过去都是面对面的。

It's, that's not that big of a deal.

是的，这没什么大不了的。

It's maybe like a slightly less effective meeting, but it's fine.

这可能像是一次效率稍低的会议，但没关系。

It's good enough.

已经足够好了。

But if it's I have four X more meetings than I used to because of the, the inherent inefficiencies of having to go to prescheduled Virtual for basically all collaboration.

但如果是的话，我的会议数量会比以前多四倍，因为基本上所有协作都必须在预先安排的虚拟环境中进行，这固有的低效率问题。

That could be a huge problem.

这可能是一个大问题。

The data I saw from Microsoft, the last data I saw was a 252% increase in these meetings from 2020 to now.

我从微软看到的数据，我最后看到的数据是这些会议从2020年到现在增加了252%。

And it's not a number, it's not like it peaked and then it started coming back down again.

这不是一个数字，也不是达到顶峰然后又开始下降。

Once we went to hybrid, it, we just, it's just high and it's still creeping up.

一旦我们转向混合动力，它就很高，而且仍在缓慢上升。

Right.

正确的。

That's a lot of time that just vanished and we sort of pretend like it did it, but that's a lot of time that is not actively working on things and just talking about work or talking about other stuff while we get around to talking about work.

很多时间就这样消失了，我们假装它做到了，但这很多时间并没有积极地做事情，只是谈论工作或在我们抽出时间谈论工作时谈论其他事情。

I think it's a real issue.

我认为这是一个真正的问题。

Is there a top three list of things that if you had a magic wand you would see everyone do each day, you know, if you had, if you had three wishes, you mean would they be vis a vis vis enhancing work, creativity, focused work?

如果你有一根魔杖，你会看到每个人每天都会做的前三件事清单，你知道，如果你有，如果你有三个愿望，你的意思是它们会与增强工作、创造力、专注工作有关吗？

I mean, I think you and I both clearly agree that there's not just great value in terms of productivity, but a great degree of, of life enrichment, like a deep level of enrichment in terms of happiness, feelings of well being kind of time for connectivity with others, lessons about deep work that can be exported to time with others where we we are really present et cetera, just so much that we gain from these, from engaging in deep work and things like it that you've written about and in your various books and talk about it on your podcast or you know, is there a top three?

我的意思是，我认为你和我都清楚地同意，不仅在生产力方面具有巨大的价值，而且在很大程度上丰富了生活，例如在幸福感方面的深度丰富，幸福感，与他人联系的时间，有关深度工作的经验教训，这些教训可以导出到我们真正存在的与其他人在一起的时间等等，我们从这些工作中获益良多，从从事深度工作和类似的事情中，你已经在你的各种书中写过，在你的各种书籍中谈论过它。播客或者你知道，有前三名吗？

Yeah.

是的。

So if I do three, I would say, OK, First of all, with your workload, simulate something like a pull system instead of a push system.

因此，如果我做三个，我会说，好的，首先，根据您的工作负载，模拟拉式系统而不是推式系统之类的东西。

And what I mean by that is when you keep track of what you're working on, have a, the top part of that list, which is, I'm actively working on these things and keep that top part of your list, like two or three things.

我的意思是，当你跟踪你正在做的事情时，有一个列表的顶部部分，也就是说，我正在积极地处理这些事情，并将顶部部分保留在你的列表中，比如两到三件事。

Everything else is in the bottom part of the list.

其他所有内容都在列表的底部。

It's to work on next and it's in an ordered queue.

接下来要处理它，它位于有序队列中。

And so when you finish something that you're working on, you pull something new to take it slot from the list below, right?

因此，当您完成正在做的事情时，您会从下面的列表中提取一些新的内容，对吗？

So what I'm trying to do with that advice is reduce all this administrative overhead because now, even if like you can't get away, you have to say yes to these things because it's the way like your, your organization works, the stuff that's in the waiting to work on Q you said I don't have meetings about that.

所以我想用这个建议做的就是减少所有这些管理开销，因为现在，即使你无法逃脱，你也必须对这些事情说“是”，因为这就像你、你的组织的运作方式，等待在 Q 上工作的东西，你说我没有关于这方面的会议。

I don't do emails about that.

我不写这方面的电子邮件。

I wait till I'm actively working on it and I only actually work on three things at a time.

我会等到我积极地去做这件事，而实际上我一次只做三件事。

Now, I'm gonna finish those things really quickly because I don't have 15 items worth of meetings.

现在，我要很快完成这些事情，因为我没有 15 个项目的会议。

I'm going to every day.

我每天都会去。

So things are gonna pull up there pretty quickly.

所以事情很快就会好起来的。

And so the rate at which I'm accomplishing things will probably be higher than it was before.

所以我完成事情的速度可能会比以前更高。

But I only work on three things actively.

但我只积极做三件事。

You could even make this visible.

您甚至可以使其可见。

It's in a shared document.

它位于共享文档中。

If you want to, when someone asks you to do something new, tell them to put it on the end of your queue like, oh, ok.

如果你愿意，当有人要求你做一些新的事情时，告诉他们把它放在你的队列的末尾，就像，哦，好吧。

So like Andrew is not working on this right now.

所以安德鲁现在并没有在做这件事。

He's working on these three things and there's seven things here and I'm adding something number eight.

他正在做这三件事，这里有七件事，我要添加第八件事。

So I know not to expect something for a while.

所以我知道暂时不要期待什么。

In fact, I can keep checking this list until I see Andrew's working on it so I can see it's making progress and then once I know he's working on it, I can start email him about it and we can do just a normal type of overhead you would have with, with projects, right?

事实上，我可以继续检查这个列表，直到我看到安德鲁正在处理它，这样我就可以看到它正在取得进展，然后一旦我知道他正在处理它，我就可以开始向他发送电子邮件，我们可以做一个正常类型的管理费用，你会遇到项目，对吗？

That alone is gonna have a huge difference.

仅此一点就会产生巨大的差异。

Like now the amount of distraction your day is going to plummet because that's generated from overhead of things you've agreed to do.

就像现在一样，你一天中分心的事情将会大幅减少，因为这是由你同意做的事情产生的。

That's gonna, that's gonna plummet that out.

这会，这会让它直线下降。

All right.

好的。

So that'd be number one.

所以这将是第一。

Could I just thank you.

我能简单地谢谢你吗？

Could I just ask a few questions about that just to clarify?

我可以问几个问题来澄清一下吗？

So for I use myself as an example selfishly, but then of course, I don't know what everyone else out there is pursuing, but so substitute the specifics I'm about to insert here for whatever it is that you care about in your life.

因此，我自私地用自己作为例子，但当然，我不知道其他人在追求什么，所以用我即将在这里插入的具体细节来代替你生活中关心的任何东西。

So, researching podcasts, solo podcast in particular for me is my major task in life these days with respect to work.

因此，研究播客，特别是对我而言，个人播客是我这些天在工作方面的主要任务。

So that would be top of the list.

所以这将是最重要的。

And then there could be two other items on this, you know, top of queue, would daily activities, like, like exercise, social time with loved ones, et cetera.

然后可能还有另外两个项目，你知道，最重要的是日常活动，比如锻炼、与亲人的社交时间等等。

Would that be included there or we're talking specifically about work?

这会包含在其中还是我们正在专门讨论工作？

Yeah, let's just keep, just work.

是的，我们继续工作吧。

So it would be, you know, podcast prep.

所以，你知道，这就是播客准备。

So you might podcast prep, podcast.

所以你可以准备播客，播客。

You might have the particular topic though.

不过，您可能有特定的主题。

Ok.

好的。

So, right.

所以，对。

I'm working on an episode right now about, about skin health.

我现在正在制作一集关于皮肤健康的节目。

You, you could have two different episodes.

你，你可以有两个不同的情节。

You're prepping.

你正在准备。

Those could both be up there.

那些可能都在那里。

So skin health allergies episode, these are two that I'm spending a lot of time on.

皮肤健康过敏事件是我花了很多时间研究的两个问题。

Yeah, in fact, and then your third might be something that involves the, the media companies, something on the business side like, ok, we're trying to figure out, a plan for whatever content for, for a new content brand as or something.

是的，事实上，然后你的第三个可能涉及媒体公司，商业方面的事情，比如，好吧，我们正在努力找出一个关于任何内容的计划，一个新的内容品牌之类的东西。

Got it.

知道了。

Great.

伟大的。

So that those three would be top of the list and every day until those are done, they could sit top of the list and then there are a number of items underneath those that fall under whatever.

这样，这三个项目就会成为列表的顶部，并且每天在完成这些任务之前，它们都可以位于列表的顶部，然后在那些属于任何项目的项目下面有许多项目。

Yeah.

是的。

And, and critically when these other items come up, right?

而且，关键是当这些其他项目出现时，对吧？

Like, oh, this is like a topic, for example, I want to do a show on, you have a place to put it where it's not being forgotten or here's a, here's a business idea.

就像，哦，这就像一个主题，例如，我想做一个节目，你有一个地方可以把它放在不会被遗忘的地方，或者这是一个，这是一个商业想法。

Like we need to figure out like, whatever we want to add, do something with our camera configure.

就像我们需要弄清楚，无论我们想添加什么，都可以对我们的相机配置进行一些操作。

Ok?

好的？

Put on the list.

放在清单上。

So it's not being forgotten like it's on there and you can see where it is, not only is it on there, but like this could be shared among your team.

因此，它不会像它在那里一样被遗忘，您可以看到它在哪里，它不仅在那里，而且可以在您的团队之间共享。

So as people had extra information or things to add to one of these projects, they can add it to it on the list, right?

因此，当人们有额外的信息或内容要添加到这些项目之一时，他们可以将其添加到列表中，对吗？

So the information is aggregated.

所以信息是聚合的。

So if you use a tool like Trello for this Trello spelled Trello is an app, it's a web based service that the metaphor is just index cards and piles, right?

因此，如果您使用像 Trello 这样的工具，Trello 拼写为 Trello 是一个应用程序，它是一个基于 Web 的服务，隐喻只是索引卡和一堆，对吗？

But they're virtual, but you can flip over the index card, digitally attach files, write notes and, and so I use Trello for my own organization, what I'm working on.

但它们是虚拟的，但你可以翻转索引卡、以数字方式附加文件、写笔记，所以我将 Trello 用于我自己的组织、我正在做的事情。

So now you have a place where you can gather like, oh, we just, I just heard about something that's relevant to this thing.

所以现在你有了一个可以聚集的地方，就像，哦，我们只是，我刚刚听说了一些与这件事相关的事情。

I need to work on.

我需要继续努力。

You have a place to put it like it goes on to the Trello card or you could do this with shared documents.

您可以将其放置在一个位置，就像将其放置在 Trello 卡片上一样，或者您可以使用共享文档来执行此操作。

It doesn't matter.

没关系。

You're just like literally typing things into a Google doc or a white board or a white board.

你就像在谷歌文档或白板或白板上逐字输入内容一样。

You could be, we're keeping track of these things, right?

你可能会，我们正在跟踪这些事情，对吗？

I'm gonna do this, by the way.

顺便说一下，我要做这个。

Yeah.

是的。

Well, I mean, I'm a big believer in this and then everyone can see what you're working on.

嗯，我的意思是，我非常相信这一点，然后每个人都可以看到你在做什么。

And then but the key thing is if it's not in your active list, you don't have meetings about it and you don't have emails about it.

然后，但关键是，如果它不在您的活动列表中，您就没有关于它的会议，也没有关于它的电子邮件。

Right?

正确的？

Like if people have ideas or things, they just add it to the card.

就像人们有想法或事情一样，他们只需将其添加到卡片中即可。

So when that gets up to the active list, we can work on all the information there.

因此，当它到达活动列表时，我们可以处理那里的所有信息。

We haven't forgotten anything.

我们没有忘记任何事情。

And what two word language do you use to describe this first point?

您用哪两个词来描述第一点？

This method, I love this.

这个方法，我喜欢。

I called it a poll based poll based what gets pulled up.

我将其称为基于民意调查的民意调查，基于所提取的内容。

You pull into the so you're fixing in advance.

你把车开进去，这样你就可以提前修好。

Here's how much concentration I have to give on work and you pull stuff into that.

这是我必须在工作上投入多少注意力，然后你才能投入其中。

The alternative is push, which is how most organizations run, which is when I want you to do something.

另一种选择是推送，这是大多数组织的运作方式，也就是我希望你做某事的时候。

I just push it on to you and now you have to deal with it.

我只是把它推给你，现在你必须处理它。

Got it.

知道了。

I once heard email described as a public post to do list that made me scared of email in a way that nothing else had.

我曾经听说电子邮件被描述为一个公开的待办事项列表，这让我对电子邮件产生了前所未有的恐惧。

It's Newport's poll based system.

这是纽波特基于民意调查的系统。

I called it that by the way.

顺便说一句，我这么称呼它。

Because this is what in the a lot of the advice in the first, one of the chapters of the new book is basically how do you get away with implementing this?

因为这就是第一本中的很多建议，所以新书的其中一个章节基本上就是如何实现这一点？

And when you have a boss and there's like all sorts of different, so you're your own boss.

当你有一个老板并且有各种各样的不同时，所以你就是你自己的老板。

So you can just say this is what we're doing, here's the board, but there's a lot of like subtle ways you can do this, right.

所以你可以说这就是我们正在做的事情，这是董事会，但是你可以通过很多类似的微妙方式来做到这一点，对吧。

So that's number one.

所以这是第一。

That's number one.

这是第一。

Cal Newport's poll based system, I'm gonna do this and I'm actually going to report back on this at some point.

加州纽波特基于民意调查的系统，我会这样做，并且实际上我会在某个时候对此进行报告。

You won't see the post on Social Media because you're not there but others will.

您不会在社交媒体上看到该帖子，因为您不在那里，但其他人会。

That's one, number two would be multi scale planning.

第一，第二是多尺度规划。

Ok.

好的。

So now this is planning you're planning on three different scales daily, weekly, seasonally or quarterly.

现在，您正在规划每天、每周、每季度或每季度三种不同规模的计划。

However, you want to think about it, right?

不过，你还是想考虑一下吧？

So you have AAA plan for like the semester, the season or the quarter.

因此，您有 AAA 计划，例如学期、季节或季度。

Like this is what I'm working on.

这就是我正在做的事情。

These are the big objectives I want to hit.

这些是我想要实现的大目标。

Here's the reminders to myself about like what matters like, remember like I'm, I'm overhauling my, my workout routine.

这是对自己的提醒，重要的是要记住，我正在彻底改变我的锻炼习惯。

We're trying to like do this with the podcast.

我们正在尝试通过播客来做到这一点。

You look at that scale of planning every week when you build your weekly plan and the weekly plan because free form text, you don't need anything.

当你制定每周计划时，你每周都会查看计划的规模，因为每周计划是自由格式的文本，你不需要任何东西。

You know, any special tools, your weekly plan, you're looking at the actual calendar.

你知道，任何特殊的工具，你的每周计划，你都会查看实际的日历。

All right.

好的。

What for my bigger scale plan, my seasonal quarterly plan, what am I trying to make sure I can make progress on this week?

我的更大规模计划、我的季节性季度计划是什么？我要努力确保本周能够取得进展？

And you, you confront the reality of your week?

而你，你面对这一周的现实吗？

You see where it's the empty space where there's the busy space.

你会看到哪里是空闲的空间，哪里是忙碌的空间。

You also change what's on your plate right here.

您还可以在这里更改盘中的内容。

You know, if I cancel this thing that frees up that whole morning, which means like I could really make progress on this, which I really want to make progress on.

你知道，如果我取消这件事，可以腾出整个早上，这意味着我真的可以在这方面取得进展，我真的很想在这方面取得进展。

So great.

太棒了。

I'm gonna cancel that thing on Friday.

我会在周五取消那件事。

So you're looking at the whole week as one unit then every day you look at your weekly plan like, ok, so, so I'm gonna use this when I make my plan for the day and when you do your daily plan, you do time blocking.

所以你把整个星期看成一个整体，然后每天你都会看一下你的每周计划，好吧，所以，当我制定当天的计划时，我会使用这个，当你做每日计划时，你会做时间限制。

Now, I'm every, I'm giving a job every minute on my work day, not my day after work, but every minute of my work day, I'm time blocking.

现在，我在工作日的每一分钟都在给一份工作，不是下班后的一天，而是工作日的每一分钟，我都在阻塞时间。

So I call it time blocking because you're literally drawing blocks around the free time.

所以我称之为时间阻塞，因为你实际上是在空闲时间周围绘制阻塞。

Ok?

好的？

This, I'm working on this, this I'm working on this.

这个，我正在研究这个，这个我正在研究这个。

So you, you're making a plan for your day that is informed by the weekly plan.

所以，你正在根据每周计划制定你的一天计划。

So in multi scale planning, you have like the, the big picture things you care about trickle their way all the way down to.

因此，在多尺度规划中，您所关心的大局会一直深入下去。

Ok, I'm, what am I gonna do during this hour during the day?

好吧，我白天这个时间要做什么？

But you don't have to grapple every, that's what most people do every time I'm figuring out what to do next.

但你不必解决每一个问题，这就是每次我弄清楚下一步该做什么时大多数人都会做的事情。

I'm not grappling with all these scales at the same time.

我不会同时应对所有这些问题。

What are my objectives?

我的目标是什么？

What's my big plan, what's going on this week?

我的大计划是什么？这周发生了什么？

You're, you're dealing with each of these scales when the time is right.

在适当的时候，你正在处理这些尺度中的每一个。

And so when it finally gets down to, it's now three o'clock, you're just doing what that block is and you figured out that block earlier today, when you looked at your weekly plan, that weekly plan reflected what was in your semester plan, which you figured out you spent the whole afternoon working on at the beginning of the semester.

所以，当最终到了，现在是三点钟，你只是在做那个块是什么，今天早些时候你就弄清楚了那个块，当你查看你的每周计划时，那个每周计划反映了你的学期计划中的内容，你发现你在学期开始时花了整个下午的时间来完成这个计划。

So, multi scale planning, it keeps you focused on what matters, it prevents you from wandering through your day and how you disperse your energy.

因此，多尺度规划可以让你专注于重要的事情，防止你在一天中闲逛以及如何分散你的精力。

And it gives you control over your time on different scales from like canceling major ongoing obligations to just being more efficient about what you do during a given day.

它可以让你在不同的层面上控制你的时间，从取消主要的持续义务到提高你在某一天的工作效率。

So I swear by multi scale planning to try to keep this whole lumbering ship that is sort of like Cal Newport aiming in the, towards the right shores, you know, like keep correcting and keeping it aimed back.

因此，我发誓通过多尺度规划，努力让这艘笨重的船（有点像加州纽波特号）瞄准正确的海岸，你知道，就像不断纠正并保持其向后瞄准一样。

I love this.

我喜欢这个。

This is more or less what I do with my physical workouts every week.

这或多或少是我每周进行体育锻炼的方式。

I know I'm going to get three resistance training sessions, two or three cardiovascular training sessions.

我知道我将接受三场阻力训练，两到三场心血管训练。

I know I'm gonna train my legs once.

我知道我要训练一次我的腿。

It's either gonna be on depending on travel Sunday, Monday or Tuesday.

取决于周日、周一或周二的出行情况。

I'll train torso muscles in the middle of the week.

我会在周中训练躯干肌肉。

I'll train sort of limb accessory muscles on a Saturday long run on Sunday or hike on Sunday or some other day there'll be some sort of hit workout in the middle of the week.

我会在周六的长跑、周日的长跑中训练一些肢体辅助肌肉，或者在周日徒步旅行，或者在周中的其他日子进行一些锻炼。

And ideally there's a jog in there too and you can adjust it a little bit based on the reality of the week.

理想情况下，那里也有一个慢跑，你可以根据一周的实际情况稍微调整一下。

Yeah, I might double up for two days then take a day off.

是的，我可能会加倍工作两天，然后休息一天。

I have my ideal schedule but sometimes it gets compromised.

我有理想的日程安排，但有时它会受到影响。

And, and then I do that for 16 week cycles where I vary the kind of intensity load, et cetera.

然后，我会以 16 周为一个周期，改变强度负荷的类型，等等。

And I've done this for years and it's just kind of works for me.

我这样做已经很多年了，这对我来说很有效。

Now with cognitive work, I don't tend to do this.

现在对于认知工作，我不倾向于这样做。

It tends to be more deadline based, but I think that the, the pull based system is really gonna help.

它往往更加基于截止日期，但我认为基于拉动的系统确实会有所帮助。

If I dovetail it with this multi scale planning, I love this and.

如果我将它与这个多尺度规划相结合，我会喜欢这个。

You can see the deadlines now, you see them coming, right?

你现在可以看到最后期限，你看到它们即将到来，对吗？

So that's part of what's nice about multi scale planning is, you know, the deadlines coming up.

所以，多尺度规划的好处之一就是，你知道，最后期限即将到来。

And so when you're doing your semester planning, you start thinking like, ok, for the big deadlines, like when I get to December, I need to be really started getting after this thing that's going to be due.

所以当你在做你的学期计划时，你开始思考，好吧，对于大的最后期限，比如当我到了 12 月时，我需要真正开始处理即将到期的事情。

I've got a book do.

我有一本书要做。

Yeah.

是的。

So then, you know, and so this really helps me book writing because now what I'm planning, it's like, you know, a year in advance.

那么，你知道，这确实对我写书有帮助，因为现在我正在计划，你知道，提前一年。

I know this month I need to get like roughly the rough draft of chapter two done, you know, and then that trickles down to my week where I'm gonna make sure I have enough time clear to like, be on track for finishing it.

我知道这个月我需要大致完成第二章的草稿，你知道，然后这会渗透到我的一周，我将确保我有足够的时间来喜欢，按计划完成它。

And then that trickles into my day.

然后这就会渗透到我的生活中。

Now I know to like block those mornings to work on it.

现在我知道喜欢在早上花时间去完成它。

So it all, it all works together.

所以这一切，一切都在一起发挥作用。

An added bonus of the daily scale is I would say communication should get its own block, email, Social Media, whatever that's like you communicating with the outside world goes into your time block plan.

每日规模的一个额外好处是，我想说，沟通应该有自己的时间段，电子邮件、社交媒体，无论你与外界的沟通是什么，都应该纳入你的时间段计划中。

So if your block doesn't include that, you don't do it.

因此，如果您的块不包含该内容，您就不会这样做。

So it's like this block is writing, it's not email, it's not Social Media.

所以这就像这个块正在写作，它不是电子邮件，它不是社交媒体。

So the rule is really simple.

所以规则非常简单。

I'm not gonna use email or Social Media.

我不会使用电子邮件或社交媒体。

But I still need to do email at some point.

但有时我仍然需要处理电子邮件。

So I have to put a block in for it.

所以我必须为其设置一个块。

And when I'm in my email blocks, I'm doing the email.

当我处于电子邮件阻塞状态时，我正在处理电子邮件。

If I need to go on Social Media to see what's going on with like the latest episode or something, I got to give that time and then you can mono focus because then it's a psychological hack.

如果我需要在社交媒体上查看最新剧集或其他内容，我必须给予时间，然后你就可以集中注意力，因为这是一种心理黑客。

But basically, when you, particularly when you schedule communication and distraction, now, the only thing you have to muster willpower to do is obey the single rule of unfollowing my blocks.

但基本上，当你，特别是当你安排沟通和分心时，现在，你唯一需要集中意志力做的事情就是遵守不遵循我的封锁的单一规则。

If you don't do that, if you're like, I just sometimes do email and Social Media.

如果你不这样做，如果你愿意，我有时会处理电子邮件和社交媒体。

Sometimes I don't.

有时我不这样做。

Now, what you have to do is just constantly be having this debate is now the right time to do this.

现在，你要做的就是不断地进行这场辩论，现在正是这样做的正确时机。

I know I'm gonna do it at some point today.

我知道今天某个时候我会这么做。

Why not?

为什么不呢？

Now?

现在？

Well, what about now?

嗯，那现在呢？

What about now?

那现在呢？

Like, you're just constantly asking yourself?

就像，你只是不断地问自己？

Right.

正确的。

That's impossible.

那是不可能的。

Right.

正确的。

That's gonna drain you.

那会让你筋疲力尽。

But if all you have to do instead is say my commitment today is to follow my blocks.

但如果你所要做的只是说我今天的承诺是遵循我的计划。

And I get, I really feel good when I do it.

我知道，当我这样做时，我真的感觉很好。

And like I check off a box, if I do give yourself some feedback here, it's a much easier cognitive battle to win than just trying to be reasonable about.

就像我勾选一个方框一样，如果我确实在这里给自己一些反馈，那么这将是一场比试图保持理性更容易获胜的认知战。

Well, let me wait a little longer to check my email.

好吧，让我再等一会儿查看我的电子邮件。

Like you're gonna lose that battle, you know, eight times out of 10, which is like enough to, to really overcome it.

就像你会输掉这场战斗，你知道，十分之八，这足以真正克服它。

So that's like a, a hidden bonus of time blocking is now you can really get your arms around separating different cognitively distinct activities.

因此，时间限制的一个隐藏好处是，你现在可以真正将不同的认知上不同的活动分开。

This is where the analogy of time restricted eating comes to mind.

这就是限时饮食的类比。

Again, not that that's the best way to lose weight or maintain weight or it's, it's role in longevity is still debated, et cetera.

再说一次，这并不是减肥或保持体重的最佳方法，或者它在长寿中的作用仍然存在争议，等等。

But I think for many people, not all, but for many people, the decision that they do not eat during certain time blocks and they do eat in other time blocks is just far more tractable in the real world for them than trying to limit portion size, decide whether or not they're going to eat.

但我认为，对于很多人来说，不是所有人，但对于很多人来说，在现实世界中，他们在某些时间段内不吃东西而在其他时间段内吃东西的决定对他们来说比试图限制份量大小、决定他们是否要吃东西要容易得多。

They're gonna pass the cookie and have a little bit.

他们会递上饼干并吃一点。

No, they're, they're in a fasting window.

不，他们是，他们正处于禁食窗口期。

It's just, it simplifies the issue and as a consequence, I think it improves behavior overall.

只是，它简化了问题，因此，我认为它改善了整体行为。

Although the clinical trials point to some mixed results with that last statement.

尽管临床试验表明最后的结果有些好坏参半。

Again, I don't want the, nutritionist does.

再说一次，我不想要，营养师想要。

After me, the point is the time blocking and the, and the the the thick black line did this of the Yes, no, the binary, yes, no. As eat, don't eat or a single email communicate, don't communicate in a given time block.

在我之后，重点是时间阻塞，粗黑线做了“是”，“否”，二进制，“是”，“否”。就像吃饭、不吃饭或一封电子邮件沟通一样，不要在给定的时间段内进行沟通。

I think that's that really is what it's about it, it honors the, the the power of of those sorts of neural computations.

我认为这就是它的真正意义所在，它尊重这类神经计算的力量。

And there's another hidden bonus of time blocking too is visually distinct blocks.

时间封锁还有另一个隐藏的好处，那就是视觉上不同的时间封锁。

So what I do, for example is I put a double thick line around deep work blocks focusing on some not just deep work, but deep work on things I really care about.

例如，我所做的就是在深度工作块周围画一条双粗线，不仅关注深度工作，而且关注我真正关心的事情的深度工作。

Just this gives you a visual record.

就这样给你一个视觉记录。

How much deep work am I doing?

我做了多少深度工作？

Right?

正确的？

Like it's this diagnosis.

就像这个诊断一样。

I use a paper based time block planner.

我使用纸质时间块规划器。

So you flip through those pages and you're just looking for dark blocks, right?

所以你翻阅这些页面，你只是在寻找暗块，对吗？

So you see if I see, I don't have a lot of dark blocks.

所以你看，如果我看到的话，我没有很多黑块。

I said this is my whole job.

我说这是我的全部工作。

Like my whole life, I've been trained in a lab to think really hard about things and write things.

就像我的一生一样，我在实验室里接受了认真思考和写作的训练。

Why do I not have very many dark blocks?

为什么我没有很多暗块？

You get this feedback mechanism.

你会得到这个反馈机制。

So there's all these bonuses when you start doing this type of doing this type of planning.

因此，当您开始进行此类计划时，就会有所有这些好处。

Before you tell us about.

在你告诉我们之前。

Number three, I often have fantasized about a web-based program that seems to run countercurrent to much of what you're talking about.

第三，我经常幻想一个基于网络的程序，它似乎与你所谈论的大部分内容背道而驰。

But goes back to this, the white board MIT observer stuff that you talked about at the beginning, which is I often longed for.

但回到这个，你一开始谈到的白板麻省理工观察员的东西，这是我经常渴望的。

Ok, I need to write today.

好吧，我今天必须写一下。

I need to write a book or I'm going to do some podcast prep.

我需要写一本书，或者我要做一些播客准备。

I'm gonna pop up a few windows of other people that are also doing deep work and we're not going to communicate.

我会弹出一些其他人也在做深度工作的窗口，但我们不会进行交流。

In fact, if we do or if music comes through on the microphone or somebody coughs that's going to be considered a distraction.

事实上，如果我们这样做或者麦克风里传出音乐或者有人咳嗽，这将被认为是一种干扰。

But does anyone want to join me for some deep work where we don't communicate?

但是有人愿意和我一起进行一些我们不沟通的深度工作吗？

And I often thought I would just pay someone to be there to just sit there.

我经常想，我只需付钱让某人在那里坐在那里。

And but I haven't done that.

但我还没有这样做。

There are multiple.

有多个。

Companies that do this.

做这件事的公司。

It's interesting when you, you're online with or in person with just other people doing deep work.

当你与其他人一起在线或面对面进行深度工作时，这很有趣。

So a deep work club, the challenge is synchronizing schedules because I might want to do this with somebody on the east coast and they might not be doing deep work at the same time.

因此，深度工作俱乐部面临的挑战是同步时间表，因为我可能想与东海岸的某人一起做这件事，而他们可能不会同时进行深度工作。

And a recording isn't the same because then, you know, they're not really watching but, but there's something really to this.