Dr. Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: Vaping, Alcohol Use & Other Risky Youth Behaviors

Andrew Huberman: Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.

Andrew Huberman：欢迎来到 Huberman 实验室播客，我们在这里讨论科学和基于科学的日常生活工具。

I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.

我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。

My guest today is Dr. Bonnie Halpern-Felsher.

今天我的客人是 Bonnie Halpern-Felsher 博士。

Dr. Bonnie Halpern-Felsher is a professor of pediatrics and adolescent medicine at Stanford University School of Medicine.

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher 博士是斯坦福大学医学院儿科和青少年医学教授。

A developmental psychologist by training, Dr. Halpern-Felsher is a world expert in the risk behaviors that adolescents, teens, and young adults participate in.

Halpern-Felsher 博士是一位受过训练的发展心理学家，也是青少年和年轻人所参与的危险行为方面的世界专家。

Today, we discuss nicotine use, both by way of smoking as well as vaping and e-cigarette use.

今天，我们讨论尼古丁的使用，包括吸烟、电子烟和电子烟的使用。

We also discuss cannabis and some of the correlative, as well as possibly causal data linking cannabis use to psychosis in young adults.

我们还讨论了大麻和一些相关数据，以及将大麻使用与年轻人精神病联系起来的可能因果数据。

And we discuss some of the other common risky behaviors that adolescents, teens, and young adults participate in, including risky driving behavior, alcohol consumption, and risky sexual behavior.

我们还讨论了青少年和年轻人参与的其他一些常见危险行为，包括危险驾驶行为、饮酒和危险性行为。

We discuss the various factors that impact whether or not a young person will participate in risky behaviors, including the family and home, as well as peer group and social media.

我们讨论了影响年轻人是否参与危险行为的各种因素，包括家庭、同侪群体和社交媒体。

And as we discuss social media, we get into a deep discussion about how marketing is combining with peer pressure in order to drive youth toward particular risky behaviors.

当我们讨论社交媒体时，我们深入讨论了营销如何与同侪压力相结合，以促使年轻人做出特定的危险行为。

By the end of today's conversation, you will have learned from Dr. Halpern-Felsher the latest research on risk-taking behavior in adolescents, teens, and young adults, and what we can each and all do to ensure that they either avoid these behaviors, or if they are already engaging in these behaviors, that we can mitigate some of the potential harms and potentially get them to eliminate these behaviors toward having a life of enhanced mental and physical health.

在今天的对话结束时，您将从 Halpern-Felsher 博士那里了解到有关青少年和年轻人冒险行为的最新研究，以及我们每个人可以采取哪些措施来确保他们避免这些行为，或者如果他们已经从事这些行为，我们可以减轻一些潜在的危害，并有可能让他们消除这些行为，从而获得更好的身心健康。

Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.

在开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。

It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero-cost-to-consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public.

然而，我的愿望和努力的一部分是将有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本消费者信息带给公众。

In keeping with that theme, I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast.

为了与这个主题保持一致，我要感谢今天播客的赞助商。

Our first sponsor is Eight Sleep.

我们的第一个赞助商是八睡。

Eight Sleep makes smart mattress covers with cooling, heating, and sleep-tracking capacity.

八睡眠公司生产具有冷却、加热和睡眠跟踪功能的智能床垫套。

Now, I've spoken many times before on this podcast about the critical need to get sleep, both enough sleep and enough quality sleep.

现在，我之前在这个播客上多次谈到过睡眠的迫切需要，包括充足的睡眠和足够的高质量睡眠。

When we do that, everything, our mental health, our physical health, performance in any sports or school, et cetera all get better.

当我们这样做时，一切，我们的心理健康，我们的身体健康，在任何运动或学校的表现等等都会变得更好。

And when we're not sleeping well or enough, all those things suffer.

当我们睡眠不好或睡眠不足时，所有这些都会受到影响。

One of the key things to getting a great night's sleep is that your body temperature actually has to drop by about one to three degrees in order to fall and stay deeply asleep.

获得良好睡眠的关键之一是，您的体温实际上必须下降约一到三度才能入睡并保持深度睡眠。

And in order to wake up feeling refreshed, your body temperature actually has to increase by about one to three degrees.

为了醒来时感觉神清气爽，您的体温实际上必须升高约一到三度。

One of the best ways to ensure that happens is to control the temperature of your sleeping environment.

确保这种情况发生的最佳方法之一是控制睡眠环境的温度。

And with Eight Sleep, it makes it very easy to do that.

而有了八睡眠，就可以很容易地做到这一点。

You program in the temperature that you want at the beginning, middle and end of the night.

您可以在夜间开始、中间和结束时设定所需的温度。

You can even divide the temperature for two different people, if you have two different people sleeping in the bed, and it tracks your sleep, it tells you how much sleep, slow wave sleep and rapid eye movement sleep, you're getting.

你甚至可以划分两个不同人的温度，如果你有两个不同的人睡在床上，它会跟踪你的睡眠，它会告诉你你的睡眠时间、慢波睡眠和快速眼动睡眠。

It really helps you dial in the correct parameters to get the best possible night's sleep for you.

它确实可以帮助您输入正确的参数，以获得最佳的夜间睡眠。

I've been sleeping on an Eight Sleep mattress cover for well over three years now, and it has completely transformed my sleep for the better.

我已经睡在八睡眠床垫罩上三年多了，它彻底改变了我的睡眠质量。

If you'd like to try Eight Sleep, you can go to eightsleep.com/huberman and save $150 off their Pod 3 cover.

如果您想尝试八睡眠，您可以访问八睡眠.com/huberman，并从其 Pod 3 封面上节省 150 美元。

Eight Sleep currently ships in the U.S.A., Canada, U.K., select countries in the EU and Australia.

八睡眠目前在美国、加拿大、英国、欧盟和澳大利亚的部分国家/地区发货。

Again, that's eightsleep.com/huberman.

再说一遍，这是八睡眠.com/huberman。

Today's episode is also brought to us by Matina.

今天的节目也是由Matina给我们带来的。

Matina makes loose-leaf and ready to drink yerba mate I often discuss yerba mate's benefits, such as regulating blood sugar, its high antioxidant content, the ways that it can improve digestion and possible neuroprotective effects.

Matina 制作散叶和即饮马黛茶 我经常讨论马黛茶的好处，例如调节血糖、其高抗氧化剂含量、它改善消化的方式以及可能的神经保护作用。

I also drink yerba mate because I love the taste.

我也喝马黛茶，因为我喜欢它的味道。

While there are a lot of different choices of yerba mate drinks out there, I love Matina because, again, they have the no sugar variety, as well as the fact that both their loose-leaf and their canned varieties are of the absolute best quality.

虽然马黛茶饮料有很多不同的选择，但我喜欢 Matina，因为他们有无糖品种，而且他们的散叶和罐装品种都具有绝对最好的质量。

So much so that I decided to become a partial owner in the company.

以至于我决定成为公司的部分所有者。

Although I must say, even if they hadn't allowed me to do that, I would be drinking Matina — is the cleanest tasting and best yerba mate you can find.

尽管我必须说，即使他们不允许我这样做，我也会喝Matina——它是你能找到的最纯净的味道和最好的马黛茶。

I love the taste of brewed loose-leaf Matina yerba mate.

我喜欢冲泡的散叶马蒂纳马黛茶的味道。

And I particularly love the taste of Matina's new canned cold brew, zero sugar yerba mate, which I personally helped them develop.

我特别喜欢 Matina 的新罐装冷萃咖啡、零糖马黛茶的味道，这是我亲自帮助他们开发的。

If you'd like to try Matina, go to drinkmatina.com/huberman.

如果您想尝试 Matina，请访问 Drinkmatina.com/huberman。

Right now, Matina is offering a free one-pound bag of loose-leaf yerba mate tea and free shipping with the purchase of two cases of their cold brew yerba mate.

现在，Matina 提供一袋免费的一磅散叶马黛茶，购买两箱冷泡马黛茶可免运费。

Again, that's drinkmatina.com/huberman to get the free bag of yerba mate, loose-leaf tea and free shipping.

再次强调，请访问 Drinkmatina.com/huberman，获取免费袋马黛茶、散叶茶和免费送货。

Today's episode is also brought to us by LMNT.

今天的节目也是LMNT给我们带来的。

LMNT is an electrolyte drink that has everything you need and nothing you don't.

LMNT 是一种电解质饮料，拥有您需要的一切，没有您不需要的东西。

That means zero sugar and the appropriate ratios of the electrolytes, sodium, magnesium and potassium.

这意味着零糖和电解质、钠、镁和钾的适当比例。

And that correct ratio of electrolytes is extremely important because every cell in your body, but especially your nerve cells, your neurons, relies on electrolytes in order to function properly.

正确的电解质比例非常重要，因为你体内的每个细胞，尤其是你的神经细胞，你的神经元，都依赖电解质才能正常运作。

So when you're well hydrated and your hydration also includes the appropriate ratios of electrolytes, your mental functioning and your physical functioning is improved.

因此，当您水分充足并且水分还包括适当比例的电解质时，您的心理功能和身体功能都会得到改善。

I drink one packet of LMNT dissolved in about 16 to 32 oz of water when I wake up in the morning, as well as while I exercise, and if I sweat a lot during that exercise, I often will drink a third LMNT packet dissolved in about 32 oz of water after I exercise.

我早上醒来时以及运动时都会喝一包溶解在约 16 至 32 盎司水中的 LMNT，如果我在运动过程中出汗很多，我通常会在运动后喝第三包溶解在约 32 盎司水中的 LMNT。

If you'd like to try LMNT, you can go to drink LMNT, spelled lmnt.com/huberman to try a free sample pack.

如果您想尝试 LMNT，可以去喝 LMNT（拼写为 lmnt.com/huberman）来尝试免费样品包。

Again, that's drinklmnt.com/huberman, and now for my discussion with Dr. Bonnie Halpern-Felsher.

同样，这是 Drinklmnt.com/huberman，现在是我与 Bonnie Halpern-Felsher 博士的讨论。

Dr. Halpern-Felsher, welcome.

Halpern-Felsher 博士，欢迎光临。

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: Thank you so much for having me.

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher：非常感谢您邀请我。

Andrew Huberman: We're going to talk about a very important and sometimes troubling period of life.

安德鲁·休伯曼：我们将讨论生命中一个非常重要且有时令人不安的时期。

Not always troubling, but I think for everyone, adolescents and the teen years, youth essentially is a tricky landscape.

并不总是令人不安，但我认为对于每个人，青少年和青少年时期来说，青春本质上是一个棘手的风景。

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: Yes, it is.

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher：是的，确实如此。

It can be.

可以的。

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, as our brain and bodies mature, we have more autonomy in where we take them.

安德鲁·休伯曼：是的，随着我们的大脑和身体的成熟，我们在使用它们时拥有更多的自主权。

But that means also more exposure to the ideas, suggestions, actions, peer pressure of others, and that's sometimes where the problems arise.

但这也意味着更多地接触他人的想法、建议、行动、同侪压力，而这有时就是问题出现的地方。

And who knows?

谁知道呢？

Probably also where the solutions come from, too, from time to time.

可能有时解决方案也来自于此。

But I think as conscientious people who mind the well-being of others of our species, we'd all like to know what are the key features that mark this stage of development?

但我认为，作为关心我们物种其他人福祉的有责任心的人，我们都想知道标志着这一发展阶段的关键特征是什么？

Maybe we'll just start off by talking about this through the lens of your expertise as a developmental psychologist.

也许我们首先从您作为发展心理学家的专业知识的角度来讨论这个问题。

What is adolescence in the teen years?

青少年时期的青春期是什么？

What's going on, what sorts of things are being worked out psychologically that we might not be aware of?

发生了什么事，心理上正在发生哪些我们可能没有意识到的事情？

And then we can talk about some of the common pitfalls and the risk-taking behavior, everything from smoking, vaping, drug use, sexual behavior, addictive behaviors as it relates to social media, bullying, risky driving.

然后我们可以讨论一些常见的陷阱和冒险行为，包括吸烟、电子烟、吸毒、性行为、与社交媒体相关的成瘾行为、欺凌、危险驾驶等。

There's so much there.

那里有很多东西。

But maybe we could just look at this stage of youth through the lens of a developmental psychologist and share with us anything you feel is worth knowing.

但也许我们可以通过发展心理学家的视角来看待青春的这个阶段，并与我们分享您认为值得了解的任何事情。

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: Sure.

邦妮·哈尔彭-费尔舍：当然。

So, first of all, ages, adolescents can be anywhere from starting roughly around age 10, some people would say ending around age 18, maybe 21; if you want to go into young adulthood, then maybe mid-20s.

所以，首先，年龄，青少年可以是任何地方，从大约 10 岁左右开始，有些人会说在 18 岁左右结束，也许 21 岁；如果你想进入青年期，那么也许是20多岁。

And, really, adolescence is a wonderful time of, as you said, exploration.

事实上，正如你所说，青春期是一个探索的美好时光。

It's a time when first of all, marked by pubertal changes, onset of menses for girls, and really the pubertal and physical development, secondary sexual characteristics are coming out.

这是一个首先以青春期变化、女孩月经开始以及青春期和身体发育、第二性征出现为标志的时期。

We also have a lot of emotional development going on during this time.

在此期间，我们的情感也发生了很多变化。

Height changes are occurring during this time, but we're getting a lot of social changes as well.

身高在这段时间发生变化，但我们也发生了很多社会变化。

As you said, peer pressure.

正如你所说，同侪压力。

So one misnomer is parents think that they don't matter during adolescence; they still really matter, but peers also come in and matter quite a bit.

因此，一种错误的说法是，父母认为他们在青春期并不重要；他们认为自己在青春期并不重要。他们仍然很重要，但同行也很重要。

And then teens are really trying to figure out who they are.

然后青少年真的试图弄清楚他们是谁。

You get a lot of questions, who am I?

你可能会问很多问题，我是谁？

Where am I going in life?

人生我该往哪里去？

What do I want to do when I grow up?

我长大后想做什么？

What's important to me?

什么对我来说重要？

How do other people feel about me?

其他人对我的感觉如何？

And then how do I feel about other people?

然后我对其他人的感觉如何？

So a lot of the social and psychosocial development is happening as well.

因此，许多社会和心理社会的发展也在发生。

And you get asynchronous development too.

并且您还可以获得异步开发。

If a young person, for example, starts puberty at a younger age, say 10, where they're physically looking older, more mature, but emotionally and psychosocially they still might be young versus the late maturers, physical maturers who may be not having and looking like an older teen or an adult till 16, 17, 18, but they're more mature emotionally than others.

例如，如果一个年轻人在较年轻的时候开始青春期，比如10岁，他们的身体看起来更老、更成熟，但在情感和心理上，他们可能仍然年轻，而与较晚成熟的人相比，身体成熟的人可能在16、17、18岁之前看起来不像年长的青少年或成年人，但他们在情感上比其他人更成熟。

Then you might have some confusion to that young person.

那么你可能会对那个年轻人有些困惑。

I look older, but I don't feel older and stuff like that.

我看起来老了，但我不觉得自己老了之类的。

But it's really this wonderful time of exploration for an adolescent and a time of really wanting autonomy and wanting to make a lot of decisions that we should let them make.

但这对于青少年来说确实是一个美妙的探索时期，也是一个真正想要自主并想要做出很多我们应该让他们做出的决定的时期。

But there are some risks that we have to be careful about at the same time.

但同时也有一些风险值得我们警惕。

Andrew Huberman: I often heard this word autonomy as it relates to this stage of puberty in the teen years.

Andrew Huberman：我经常听到“自主”这个词，因为它与青少年时期的青春期阶段有关。

You mentioned that kids of that age still really need their parents.

您提到那个年龄段的孩子仍然非常需要父母。

In the last, gosh, 20, 30 years in this country, there's been a marked increase in the frequency of divorce.

天哪，在过去的 20 年、30 年里，这个国家的离婚频率显着增加。

Is there any direct evidence that single parent homes or homes where, I don't know, people are remarried or just basically divorced homes are somehow creating more challenges in terms of risk-taking behavior in adolescents and teens or not?

是否有任何直接证据表明，单亲家庭或（我不知道）人们再婚的家庭或基本上离婚的家庭是否在某种程度上给青少年的冒险行为带来了更多挑战？

Because I know plenty of people who grew up in single parent homes, sometimes parents remarried and sometimes didn't, but by my mind, I can't seem to come up with any direct correlation.

因为我认识很多在单亲家庭长大的人，有时父母再婚，有时没有，但在我看来，我似乎无法得出任何直接的关联。

You know, plenty of those kids did fine and plenty of kids in two-parent homes that I know had challenges and vice versa.

你知道，很多孩子都表现得很好，而我知道很多双亲家庭的孩子都面临着挑战，反之亦然。

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: Yeah, I haven't contributed, actually, that was some of my earlier dissertation work, and I haven't really contributed to that literature for a while.

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher：是的，实际上，我还没有做出贡献，那是我早期的一些论文工作，而且我已经有一段时间没有真正为这些文献做出贡献了。

But what you're saying is pretty accurate to what I've seen, which is really the literature would say it's not the divorce per se, it's the conflict that is happening.

但你所说的与我所看到的非常准确，这确实是文献所说的，这不是离婚本身，而是正在发生的冲突。

So if parents actually get divorced, usually, if the conflict resumes, teenagers and children generally do well, and particularly within about two years--

因此，如果父母真的离婚，通常情况下，如果冲突再次爆发，青少年和儿童通常会过得很好，尤其是在大约两年内——

Andrew Huberman: If the conflict resolves--

安德鲁·休伯曼：如果冲突解决——

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: If the conflict resolves, right.

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher：如果冲突解决了，对吧。

So you can have two parents who are married and living in the same home and may or may not be a good relationship, but living in the same home; if there's no conflict or that, then generally teens will do well.

因此，您可以有两个已婚父母，住在同一个家里，关系可能很好，也可能不好，但住在同一个家里；如果没有冲突或其他问题，那么一般来说青少年会表现得很好。

Or as you're saying, there's not necessarily a direct correlation.

或者正如你所说，不一定有直接相关性。

The problem comes in whether parents are living at home together or separated or divorced is if there's conflict.

问题在于父母是否同住、分居或离婚，是否存在冲突。

And then that conflict tends to result in social issues, emotional issues, a lot of social anxiety, a lot of feeling like I need to do better, so that way my parents like me more.

然后这种冲突往往会导致社交问题、情感问题、很多社交焦虑、很多感觉我需要做得更好，这样我的父母就会更喜欢我。

And we see that with children, too, that's not just adolescents.

我们也看到，对于儿童来说，这不仅仅是青少年。

A lot of depression, and with depression can come self-medication, self-medicating around other drugs, and so on.

很多抑郁症，伴随着抑郁症，可以进行自我药疗，围绕其他药物进行自我药疗，等等。

But that generally is resolved if the conflict resolves.

但如果冲突解决了，一般都会解决。

But as you're saying, we're seeing adolescent angst regardless of parenting.

但正如你所说，无论养育方式如何，我们都看到青少年焦虑。

What we really need, though, it's not a matter of just the divorce or not divorce or the relationship between the parents, it's parenting that's important.

然而，我们真正需要的不仅仅是离婚或不离婚或父母之间的关系问题，重要的是养育子女。

So parents being good monitors, being involved in their kids' lives, not this, Oh, you're 16, you have a car, you can go wherever you want, and we're not going to keep an eye on you.

所以父母要成为好的监督者，参与孩子的生活，而不是这样，哦，你16岁了，你有车，你可以去任何你想去的地方，我们不会监视你。

We still need parents to monitor, to pay attention, to find out their kid's friends, where are they going after school?

我们仍然需要家长监控、关注、找出孩子的朋友，他们放学后去哪里？

That discretionary time when parents are working and teenagers come home between three and five or three and six tends to be the most risky couple of hours.

父母工作、青少年三点到五点或三点到六点之间的自由支配时间往往是最危险的几个小时。

It's called discretionary hours, where there's no parent around and we don't always know where those teenagers are hanging out.

这就是所谓的自由支配时间，没有父母在身边，我们并不总是知道那些青少年在哪里闲逛。

So that's more important, knowing where their children are and what they're doing and that there's some adult present, some monitoring, than whether or not they're still in a relationship.

因此，了解孩子在哪里、在做什么以及是否有成年人在场、进行监控比他们是否仍然处于恋爱关系中更重要。

Andrew Huberman: My sense is that smartphones have allowed more communication and monitoring between parents and kids, but also more interactions between kids and other kids, and kids and adults more broadly.

Andrew Huberman：我的感觉是，智能手机让父母和孩子之间有了更多的沟通和监控，也让孩子和其他孩子、孩子和成年人之间有了更多的互动。

So is there any evidence that the advent of smartphones is directly creating problems for kids that has to do with just so much more peer-to-peer interaction or peer-to-peer exposure.

那么，有没有证据表明智能手机的出现直接给孩子们带来了问题，而这些问题与更多的点对点互动或点对点接触有关。

Like, when I was growing up, we didn't have smartphones.

就像，当我长大的时候，我们没有智能手机。

If you did something stupid like that, meaning that kids would laugh at it, might get told to a small group of people, maybe a larger group of people, but in general, it just kind of didn't go anywhere.

如果你做了这样的蠢事，意味着孩子们会嘲笑它，可能会被告诉一小群人，也许是一大群人，但总的来说，它只是没有任何进展。

You're like, I screwed up.

你就像，我搞砸了。

And then you get teased a bit, and then it would kind of dissipate.

然后你会被嘲笑一点，然后它就会消失。

But now, of course, that can propagate very, very far, very fast.

但现在，当然，它可以传播得非常非常远、非常快。

Is there any evidence that that mere fact is creating issues for kids?

有没有证据表明这一事实给孩子们带来了问题？

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: So I would say it's not a blanket statement.

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher：所以我想说这不是一个笼统的声明。

I think it depends on the behavior that we're talking about.

我认为这取决于我们正在谈论的行为。

Bullying, no doubt.

欺凌，毫无疑问。

The example that you gave, no doubt that if you mess up, if you do something stupid, it's getting filmed and it's gonna go viral.

你举的例子，毫无疑问，如果你搞砸了，如果你做了一些愚蠢的事情，它就会被拍下来并且会像病毒一样传播。

It will go on social media, and then it will perpetuate and escalate amongst the peers, that we definitely know is happening.

它会在社交媒体上传播，然后它会在同行中永久存在并升级，我们肯定知道这种情况正在发生。

And certainly in terms of drug use and marketing, there's definitely some peer-to-peer interaction, look how cool I am, look at the smoke ring I did, look at other things that I've been doing.

当然，在药物使用和营销方面，肯定存在一些点对点的互动，看看我有多酷，看看我抽的烟圈，看看我一直在做的其他事情。

There is no doubt.

毫无疑问。

But in general, there are also some good things about it.

但总的来说，它也有一些好处。

Parent communication, they can monitor where their children are, they can put a tracker on the phone.

家长沟通，他们可以监控孩子在哪里，他们可以在手机上放置追踪器。

I know with my own kids, sometimes it was the best way to say, you seem a little sad, when face-to-face communication wasn't happening.

我知道，对于我自己的孩子来说，有时这是最好的表达方式，当面对面的交流没有发生时，你看起来有点悲伤。

I could use the phone to have that conversation.

我可以使用电话进行对话。

So, yes, there is some evidence that overall, phones and smartphones have increased risk behavior, but it's more the access to the behavior and then the viralness of really getting that information out.

所以，是的，有一些证据表明，总体而言，手机和智能手机增加了危险行为，但更多的是对这些行为的访问，然后是真正获取该信息的病毒式传播。

Like you said, if somebody screws up, somebody dresses wrong, if somebody kisses somebody, that that could go pretty viral.

就像你说的，如果有人搞砸了，有人穿错了，如果有人亲吻了某人，这可能会非常流行。

I wouldn't say that smartphones and social media as a whole is the problem.

我不会说智能手机和社交媒体作为一个整体是问题所在。

I think it's situation-specific and behavior-specific that we're seeing, and particularly around marketing for example, that teenagers have more access now to YouTube, to marketing that they're promoting.

我认为我们看到的是针对特定情况和特定行为的，特别是在营销方面，例如，青少年现在有更多机会访问 YouTube，参与他们正在推广的营销活动。

Not only are industries promoting, for example, e-cigarettes or cannabis, promoting to young people, but teens are promoting to each other.

例如，电子烟或大麻等行业不仅在向年轻人推销，而且青少年也在相互推销。

And that we didn't see before smartphones, right?

这是我们在智能手机出现之前没有看到的，对吧？

We didn't see, I took a picture or Instagram, look at me smoking, or look at me dressing sexy, look at me looking cool or anything like that.

我们没有看到，我拍了一张照片或Instagram，看我抽烟，或者看我穿得性感，看我看起来很酷或者类似的东西。

That didn't happen before.

以前没有发生过这种情况。

It was more just word of mouth.

这更多只是口口相传。

So that is definitely where we're a lot more concerned about social media.

所以这绝对是我们更关心社交媒体的地方。

But more, my concern about social media is the outside world targeting young people, that's where I've been the biggest concern about it.

但更重要的是，我对社交媒体的担忧是外界针对年轻人的关注，这也是我最担心的地方。

Teenagers targeting each other with bullying — no doubt, big issue — but in other ways, there's more support, there's more social interaction.

青少年互相欺凌——毫无疑问，这是一个大问题——但在其他方面，有更多的支持，有更多的社交互动。

The other time I get concerned, though, around teenagers is more the social piece of sitting around together at a table and they're not talking, they're on the phones.

然而，另一次我担心的是，青少年周围更多的是坐在一张桌子旁的社交活动，他们不说话，而是打电话。

So what we really don't know enough is how is the not getting out and playing and instead playing on a game, not going to the park, and instead communicating through phones.

所以我们真正不知道的是，不出去玩，而是玩游戏，不去公园，而是通过电话交流是怎么回事。

How is that changing their social and physical development is where I'm also very concerned.

我也非常关心如何改变他们的社交和身体发展。

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, I have family relatives who are in their teens, and it's interesting to see them interact where they're on their phones a lot of the time.

Andrew Huberman：是的，我有十几岁的亲戚，看到他们经常用手机互动很有趣。

But I've also noticed that there's a cohort of kids that are really trying to put their phones away and just spend time together.

但我也注意到有一群孩子真的想把手机收起来，只是花时间在一起。

And that was actually directly stated to me that, oh, yeah, we hang out and we make it a point not to be on our phones when we hang out, but then of course they'll text or be on the iPad with one another in the evening when they're apart.

这实际上是直接向我表明的，哦，是的，我们出去玩，并且我们强调出去玩时不要玩手机，但是当然，当他们晚上分开时，他们会互相发短信或使用 iPad。

So they're sort of never apart.

所以他们就像永远不会分开一样。

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: Right.

邦妮·哈尔彭-费尔舍：是的。

Andrew Huberman: But I do think there seems to be at least a submovement of kids and teens that are trying to do more face-to-face interaction with devices at least put aside.

安德鲁·休伯曼：但我确实认为，似乎至少有一些儿童和青少年正在尝试与设备进行更多的面对面互动，至少是把设备放在一边。

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: I think that's a really good point.

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher：我认为这是一个非常好的观点。

I've talked to some teens who say that they all, they get together and they will deliberately put the phones face down in the middle, no phones, and have dinner or have a conversation.

我和一些青少年交谈过，他们说他们聚在一起，故意把手机面朝下放在中间，不打电话，然后吃晚饭或聊天。

So I think you're right.

所以我认为你是对的。

I definitely think that that has been a movement, and I really appreciate that, and I think that's fantastic.

我绝对认为这是一场运动，我真的很欣赏这一点，我认为这太棒了。

I've also seen circumstances where two teens are trying to help each other with homework and they're texting each other, which is fine, but I've often said, why don't you just pick up the phone and call the person and in five minutes you can figure out the math assignment instead of 20, 30 minutes of back-and-forth.

我也见过这样的情况：两个青少年试图互相帮助做作业，并互相发短信，这很好，但我经常说，你为什么不拿起电话打电话给那个人，五分钟内你就可以算出数学作业，而不是来来回回的 20、30 分钟。

It's just not as efficient unless you're literally copying and showing the picture.

除非您确实复制并显示图片，否则效率不高。

But is that having a change on their social or physical development or emotional development?

但这是否会改变他们的社交或身体发展或情感发展？

Probably not, it's just a different world, the way that they communicate.

可能不是，这只是一个不同的世界，他们的沟通方式不同。

And that's why I say I'm less worried in some ways, as long as they're still getting out and they're playing and they're being creative, I'm less worried about that kind of social interaction on phones and social media.

这就是为什么我说我在某些方面不那么担心，只要他们仍然出去玩，他们仍然有创造力，我就不太担心电话和社交媒体上的那种社交互动。

It's a different way.

这是一种不同的方式。

We don't have a lot of evidence to say one way or the other, but if they're still doing the things that they should be doing as young people, my concern is that outside world, the concern of predatory behaviors, the concern of industry, the concern of mass media and marketing to teens, that's the part that gets me particularly worried.

我们没有很多证据可以说明这一点或另一点，但如果他们仍然在做他们作为年轻人应该做的事情，我担心的是外部世界，对掠夺性行为的担忧，行业的担忧，大众媒体和对青少年营销的担忧，这就是让我特别担心的部分。

Andrew Huberman: Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。

Well, we know for sure that this is the first time in human evolution that humans have essentially written with their thumbs.

好吧，我们确信这是人类进化史上第一次人类基本上用拇指书写。

It's got to be a massive expansion of the brain's representation of the thumbs relative to 20, 30 years ago.

与 20、30 年前相比，大脑对拇指的表征肯定有了巨大的扩展。

But maybe now would be a good time to talk about risky behaviors, or even just behaviors that are known to have some detriment to health, smoking and vaping and e-cigarettes primarily.

但也许现在是讨论危险行为的好时机，甚至只是讨论已知对健康有一定损害的行为，主要是吸烟、电子烟和电子烟。

And we should be probably distinguishing between nicotine and cannabis.

我们应该区分尼古丁和大麻。

Maybe let's just start with nicotine.

也许我们就从尼古丁开始吧。

What are the statistics on smoking, vaping and e-cigarettes?

关于吸烟、电子烟和电子烟的统计数据有哪些？

Just rough statistics.

只是粗略的统计。

I saw a talk that you did online that cited some pretty outrageous increases in, or shocking increases in smoking and vaping in the last couple of years, just staggering.

我看到你在网上做了一个演讲，其中提到了过去几年吸烟和电子烟的一些相当令人震惊的增长，或者说令人震惊的增长，真是令人震惊。

So maybe if you give us the top contour of those.

所以也许如果你给我们这些的顶部轮廓。

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: Sure, absolutely.

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher：当然，绝对如此。

So the good news is smoking rates, conventional cigarette smoking rates, has gone down pretty dramatically in the last couple of decades with teenagers, with all people in the U.S., which is wonderful, but teenagers to well below 10%, if not really well below 5% of teenagers.

因此，好消息是，在过去的几十年里，美国所有青少年的吸烟率、传统吸烟率大幅下降，这很好，但青少年的吸烟率远低于 10%，甚至远低于 5%。

That's the good news.

这是个好消息。

In terms of e-cigarette use, which I prefer the term e-cigarette use than vaping, because they're not vapes, they're aerosols.

就电子烟的使用而言，我更喜欢使用“电子烟”这个词，而不是“电子烟”，因为它们不是电子烟，而是气雾剂。

But e-cigarette use has gone up pretty dramatically.

但电子烟的使用量却大幅增加。

So e-cigarettes came on the market in the U.S. in 2007, and they were slow for uptick amongst teenagers.

因此，电子烟于2007年在美国上市，但在青少年中的普及速度缓慢。

They looked like cigarettes when they first came on the market.

当它们第一次进入市场时，它们看起来像香烟。

They weren't very popular with teenagers, they didn't have, they had some flavors, not a lot.

它们不太受青少年欢迎，它们没有，它们有一些口味，但不是很多。

Didn't have a lot of nicotine.

尼古丁含量并不高。

It was probably around 2011 to 2014 we started seeing an uptick.

大概是在 2011 年到 2014 年左右，我们开始看到增长。

But then it was really in 2017 to '19 that we saw a dramatic increase.

但直到 2017 年到 19 年，我们才真正看到了戏剧性的增长。

And that was the statistics that we saw upwards of 27% to 29% of teens using e-cigarettes during those couple years--

根据统计数据，我们发现这几年有 27% 至 29% 的青少年使用电子烟——

Andrew Huberman: Daily use?

安德鲁·休伯曼：日常使用？

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: Past 30 days, so any use in the past 30 days was.

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher：过去 30 天，所以过去 30 天内的任何使用都是。

And daily use will be some smaller percentage of that.

日常使用所占的比例会较小。

It was something like a 78% increase in high school student use and a 48% increase in middle school use over those couple of years, so a very dramatic increase in use.

这几年，高中生的使用量增加了 78%，初中生的使用量增加了 48%，所以使用量的增长非常惊人。

Since 2019 it's gone down, but I'm gonna give a caveat.

自 2019 年以来，它有所下降，但我要提出警告。

It's gone down in 2020 to, the national numbers are showing that went to around 20% and now around 10%.

2020 年，全国数字显示这一比例下降至 20% 左右，现在为 10% 左右。

Part of that was in 2020 we had COVID.

其中一部分原因是 2020 年我们感染了新冠病毒。

And initiation of e-cigarette use really occurs socially.

电子烟的使用确实发生在社交场合。

Going back to socialization, it's a lot of teens getting together, and it's not peer pressure of, you have to try.

回到社交，很多青少年聚集在一起，这不是同辈压力，你必须尝试。

Come on, try this.

来吧，试试这个。

It's more like, my friends are using, I'm at a party, I feel like using, yeah, I'll try it.

更像是，我的朋友正在使用，我在聚会上，我想使用，是的，我会尝试一下。

Well, during the pandemic and the shutdown, teens were not at school.

嗯，在大流行和停课期间，青少年没有上学。

They weren't with their friends, so initiation went down.

他们没有和朋友在一起，所以启蒙活动下降了。

Teens who were addicted, and we can certainly talk about levels of nicotine in e-cigarettes, but teens who were addicted continues to use.

上瘾的青少年，我们当然可以谈论电子烟中的尼古丁含量，但上瘾的青少年仍在继续使用。

Some tried to quit, which was great, but we still saw a fair amount of use.

有些人试图退出，这很好，但我们仍然看到相当多的使用。

So part of the decrease in those 2020 to 2021 have to do with just access, and socialization had changed, and so rates went down.

因此，2020 年至 2021 年的下降部分与准入有关，并且社会化发生了变化，因此比率下降了。

Since then, even we publish a paper showing relationships between COVID and vaping, we saw EVALI e-cigarette and vaping associated lung illness.

从那时起，即使我们发表了一篇显示新冠病毒与电子烟之间关系的论文，我们也看到了 EVALI 电子烟和电子烟相关的肺部疾病。

So that, we think was part of why we also saw further drops around 2021.

因此，我们认为这就是我们在 2021 年左右看到进一步下降的部分原因。

But people were concerned about their lung health, and teens as well, and that's great.

但人们关心他们的肺部健康，也关心青少年，这很好。

The latest data show that their rates are under 10%, the national data, I actually don't think it's true.

最新的数据显示他们的比率在10%以下，全国的数据，我其实不认为这是真的。

And the reason I don't think it's true is I'm in the schools doing curriculum presentations all the time, where I teach an education teachers to use our tobacco and cannabis prevention curriculums, and we've never been busier than we are right now with schools just crying for help.

我认为这不是真的的原因是我一直在学校做课程演示，在那里我教教育老师使用我们的烟草和大麻预防课程，我们从来没有像现在这样忙碌，学校只是在呼喊帮助。

We have another group of teenagers using e-cigarettes, nicotine or cannabis or whatever.

我们还有另一群青少年使用电子烟、尼古丁或大麻或其他东西。

It's way more than 10%, I would say schools are telling me it's 40% to 60% of their students are using e-cigarettes--

远远超过 10%，我想说学校告诉我有 40% 到 60% 的学生在使用电子烟——

Andrew Huberman: For nicotine--

安德鲁·休伯曼：对于尼古丁——

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: --we don't know.

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher：——我们不知道。

Andrew Huberman: --or cannabis?

安德鲁·休伯曼：——还是大麻？

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: It's very hard to know.

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher：这很难知道。

It's very hard to know what's in there, but--

很难知道里面有什么，但是——

Andrew Huberman: Forty percent to 60%--

安德鲁·休伯曼：百分之四十到百分之六十——

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: --that's what the schools are saying.

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher：——学校就是这么说的。

Andrew Huberman: At some point in the last 30 days.

Andrew Huberman：过去 30 天的某个时候。

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: At some point in the last 30 days.

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher：过去 30 天的某个时候。

They're catching just exorbitant numbers of students using right now.

他们发现现在使用的学生数量过多。

And so from a science perspective, is it 10%, 20%, 30?

那么从科学的角度来看，是10%、20%还是30%？

We don't know.

我们不知道。

I can just tell you that the national CDC data would say 10%.

我只能告诉你，国家疾控中心的数据是10%。

And maybe it's a problem with the surveys or the questions, or teens aren't being honest, but from a school's perspective, it's much higher.

也许这是调查或问题的问题，或者青少年不诚实，但从学校的角度来看，这个问题要高得多。

And then we have some national data suggesting it's more in the 20-to-30%-to-40% range as well.

然后我们有一些国家数据表明它也更多在 20% 到 30% 到 40% 的范围内。

Whatever it is, it's too many.

不管是什么，都太多了。

It's too many teens who are inhaling nicotine, and cannabis as well.

有太多青少年吸入尼古丁和大麻。

Andrew Huberman: Well, lots to unpack there.

Andrew Huberman：嗯，有很多东西需要解开。

First of all, nicotine, I did an episode of the podcast about nicotine, and a little bit of that got confused in the way it landed.

首先，尼古丁，我做了一集关于尼古丁的播客，其中有一点在它落地的方式上感到困惑。

So I'll just quickly state nicotine, known cognitive enhancer, also known to dramatically increase blood pressure and vasoconstriction.

因此，我将快速介绍一下尼古丁，它是一种已知的认知增强剂，也能显着增加血压和血管收缩。

Not healthy for the body.

对身体不健康。

Just to be clear, it's not healthy for the body.

需要明确的是，这对身体不利。

So when people hear that it's a cognitive enhancer, increases focus and alertness, that's true in the short term.

因此，当人们听说它是一种认知增强剂、可以提高注意力和警觉性时，短期内确实如此。

Highly addictive.

非常容易上瘾。

Highly, highly addictive, and habit forming.

高度、高度成瘾，并且形成习惯。

Since sometimes those are separated, maybe we delve into that distinction.

由于有时它们是分开的，也许我们会深入研究这种区别。

But by my observation, very few people can use nicotine occasionally.

但据我观察，很少有人能偶尔使用尼古丁。

People who try it seem to like it, at least in the short run, and keep using it.

尝试它的人似乎喜欢它，至少在短期内如此，并继续使用它。

So presumably kids are using, I should say youth are using nicotine either by vape or e-cigarette.

因此，大概孩子们正在使用尼古丁，我应该说年轻人正在通过电子烟或电子烟使用尼古丁。

And they quote, unquote, like the way it makes them feel.

他们引用，不引用，就像他们的感受一样。

Who knows?

谁知道？

Maybe it allows them to focus on their studies better.

也许这可以让他们更好地专注于学习。

I don't know.

我不知道。

But it is known to improve certain forms of cognition, but only transiently, and it's highly addictive and it's bad for their health, for anyone's health.

但众所周知，它可以改善某些形式的认知，但只是暂时的，而且它很容易上瘾，而且对他们的健康、对任何人的健康都有害。

So that puts us in a kind of a tricky situation when evaluating the statistics that you just laid out, because one wonders, are they taking it and then continuing to take it because of peer pressure, because of lack of peer pressure to not do it, because it helps them with their schoolwork, because they're naturally a little bit depressed, and it provides a kind of antidepressant signal.

因此，在评估您刚刚列出的统计数据时，这使我们陷入了一种棘手的境地，因为人们想知道，他们是否因为同伴压力而继续服用它，因为缺乏同伴压力而不这样做，因为这有助于他们完成学业，因为他们天生有点抑郁，并且它提供了一种抗抑郁信号。

What do we know about why they're actually starting and why they're continuing and why they are reluctant to quit?

我们对他们为什么真正开始、为什么他们继续、为什么他们不愿意退出了解多少？

Maybe we just parse those.

也许我们只是解析这些。

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: Sure.

邦妮·哈尔彭-费尔舍：当然。

Andrew Huberman: So, why does a teenager try nicotine?

安德鲁·休伯曼：那么，为什么青少年要尝试尼古丁呢？

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: So there are a few reasons why they start.

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher：所以他们开始有几个原因。

Based on the literature, scientific literature, and just talking to teens, one has to do with the marketing, no doubt.

根据文献、科学文献以及与青少年的交谈，毫无疑问，这与营销有关。

If you look at the marketing, it is targeting young people.

如果你看一下营销，它是针对年轻人的。

It's targeting them with, first of all, the devices themselves.

首先，它的目标是设备本身。

They are cool looking, they're easy to hide.

它们看起来很酷，很容易隐藏。

They look like USB devices.

它们看起来像 USB 设备。

They look like highlighters; in fact, there's a new brand out called High Light, that is a highlighter.

它们看起来像荧光笔；事实上，有一个新品牌叫High Light，那就是荧光笔。

That's a working highlighter, but it's actually a nicotine e-cigarette.

这是一个有效的荧光笔，但它实际上是一种尼古丁电子烟。

Andrew Huberman: So a highlighter pen to study.

Andrew Huberman：所以需要学习一支荧光笔。

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: Highlighter pen to study.

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher：用于学习的荧光笔。

Andrew Huberman: And then.

安德鲁·休伯曼：然后。

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: But it's actually.

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher：但实际上是这样。

You take the cover off and it's actually a nicotine e-cigarette device.

揭开盖子，它实际上是一个尼古丁电子烟装置。

Andrew Huberman: Clearly marketed toward students.

Andrew Huberman：显然是针对学生的。

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: Clearly marketed towards students.

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher：显然是针对学生的。

Andrew Huberman: Wow.

安德鲁·休伯曼：哇。

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: You have, what's it called?

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher：你有，它叫什么？

Boba teas, drinks--

波巴茶、饮料——

Andrew Huberman: Oh, yeah, the tea with the--

安德鲁·胡伯曼：哦，是的，茶里有——

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: Yeah, mimicking that drink, that's actually, that the straw is actually the vaping, inhaling there little pieces.

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher：是的，模仿那种饮料，实际上，吸管实际上是电子烟，吸入小碎片。

You have Star Wars shapes, you know, it goes on and on.

你有星球大战的形状，你知道，它会一直持续下去。

Just the cartoon shapes that are clearly being targeted to not just teenagers, children that we're seeing.

只是卡通形状显然不仅仅针对我们所看到的青少年和儿童。

Andrew Huberman: Children, like young children.

Andrew Huberman：孩子们，就像小孩子一样。

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: Children, like young children.

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher：孩子们，就像小孩子一样。

Andrew Huberman: So wait, so I'm shocked.

Andrew Huberman：等等，所以我很震惊。

So kids younger than 10 are having these products pushed their way?

那么 10 岁以下的孩子正在接受这些产品吗？

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: They are.

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher：是的。

And actually, I didn't tell you in the statistics, the statistics I was citing.

事实上，我并没有在统计数据中告诉你，我引用的统计数据。

I should go back and clarify a couple there that are even more shocking.

我应该回去澄清一些更令人震惊的事情。

So those are the numbers for middle and high school.

这些是初中和高中的数字。

We don't have data from elementary, but again, the other part of, in addition to the science I contribute to the interventions I do, I am getting elementary school teachers calling us for help.

我们没有小学的数据，但同样，除了我为干预措施贡献的科学之外，我还收到小学老师打电话寻求帮助。

They are catching second and third graders using nicotine e-cigarettes, I'm not kidding.

他们正在抓捕使用尼古丁电子烟的二年级和三年级学生，我不是在开玩笑。

And not just one or two, quite a bit.

而且不只是一两个，而是相当多。

We said we would never develop an elementary school version of a vaping prevention curriculum, that's what we call ours, "You and me together, vape free." We would never.

我们说过，我们永远不会开发小学版的电子烟预防课程，这就是我们所说的“你和我在一起，远离电子烟”。我们永远不会。

We have a middle school and a high school, we were never going to do elementary.

我们有一所初中和一所高中，我们永远不会上小学。

We've had so many schools across the country call us and say we need something for elementary, so we actually created a curriculum.

全国有很多学校打电话给我们，说我们需要一些小学课程，所以我们实际上创建了一个课程。

So we're having, there was a story of an eight-year-old back east who was caught and using and the teachers and police didn't know what to do, and of course I said, it's not a police matter.

所以我们有一个故事，东部东部有一个八岁的孩子被抓住并被利用，老师和警察不知道该怎么办，当然我说，这不是警察的事。

Why aren't we helping this young person?

我们为什么不帮助这个年轻人呢？

So we're seeing younger now; sometimes they're starting because their siblings, older siblings, it's being marketed to, they don't realize that it's a nicotine e-cigarette or cannabis e-cigarette, they just don't realize what it is, but the number of these products that are being targeted to young people is absolutely ridiculous.

所以我们现在看到的是更年轻的；有时他们开始使用电子烟是因为他们的兄弟姐妹、年长的兄弟姐妹，他们没有意识到这是尼古丁电子烟或大麻电子烟，他们只是不知道它是什么，但针对年轻人的这些产品的数量绝对是荒谬的。

what they look like.

他们是什么样子的。

The pictures are endless.

图片是无穷无尽的。

And the problem is they're coming out with new products every few months that are targeting kids.

问题是他们每隔几个月就会推出针对儿童的新产品。

So marketing, the other is flavors, and flavors and marketing go hand in hand, you know, if it looks bad, looks like, or smells like and tastes like nicotine or tobacco, teens know that that's gross.

所以营销，另一个是口味，口味和营销是齐头并进的，你知道，如果它看起来很糟糕，看起来像，闻起来像尼古丁或烟草，尝起来像尼古丁或烟草，青少年就知道那很恶心。

That's why we don't have cigarette use anymore.

这就是为什么我们不再吸烟了。

Teens, we've socialized our country to say, if you smell tobacco, it's nothing that we want to smell, we walk away from it, you walk across the street, whatever.

青少年们，我们已经让我们的国家社会化了，如果你闻到烟草味，我们不想闻到任何东西，我们会走开，你走过马路，无论如何。

We've done a really good job in tobacco control, getting the word out around that these products, e-cigarettes, smell and taste like sugar, like sweets, like dessert, like candy.

我们在烟草控制方面做得非常好，让人们知道这些产品，电子烟，闻起来和尝起来像糖，像糖果，像甜点，像糖果。

So you've got, and the names are things like Unicorn Poop and Sugar Booger and Honey Doo Doo, that's not for adults, those names are squarely for kids.

所以你已经知道了，这些名字是像“独角兽便便”、“糖鼻屎”和“蜂蜜杜杜”这样的东西，这些名字不适合成人，这些名字完全适合孩子。

It's kids who are using chocolate.

是孩子们在使用巧克力。

It's kids who are using these flavors that are on the market.

使用市场上这些口味的是孩子们。

And then the marketing around it are these, I mean, they're beautiful.

然后围绕它的营销就是这些，我的意思是，它们很漂亮。

They're these pizzazz of pineapple dancing around, or strawberries dancing or whatever it is that are very animated.

它们是菠萝跳舞的活力，或者草莓跳舞或者任何非常生动的东西。

They're juice-box style that have come out juice-box style vaping devices that are marketed looking like juice boxes.

它们是果汁盒式的，已经推出了果汁盒式电子烟设备，其销售看起来像果汁盒。

Again, that's not targeting you and me, that's targeting a kid.

再说一遍，这不是针对你和我，而是针对一个孩子。

Andrew Huberman: Interesting and scary.

安德鲁·休伯曼：有趣又可怕。

To hear all this.

听到这一切。

I'd like to take a brief break and acknowledge our sponsor, AG1.

我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商 AG1。

By now, most of you have heard me tell my story about how I've been taking AG1 once or twice a day every day since 2012.

到目前为止，你们中的大多数人都已经听过我讲述自 2012 年以来我如何每天服用一到两次 AG1 的故事。

And indeed, that's true.

确实如此。

I started taking AG1, and I still take AG1 once or twice a day because it gives me vitamins and minerals that I might not be getting enough of from whole foods that I eat, as well as adaptogens and micronutrients.

我开始服用 AG1，现在仍然每天服用一到两次，因为它为我提供了我可能无法从我吃的天然食物中获取的维生素和矿物质，以及适应原和微量营养素。

Those adaptogens and micronutrients are really critical because even though I strive to eat most of my foods from unprocessed or minimally processed whole foods, it's often hard to do so, especially when I'm traveling and especially when I'm busy.

这些适应原和微量营养素非常重要，因为尽管我努力吃未加工或最低限度加工的天然食品中的大部分食物，但通常很难做到这一点，特别是当我在旅行时，尤其是当我很忙时。

So by drinking a packet of AG1 in the morning, and oftentimes also again in the afternoon or evening, I'm ensuring that I'm getting everything I need.

因此，通过早上喝一包 AG1，并且经常在下午或晚上再喝一次，我可以确保获得我需要的一切。

I'm covering all of my foundational nutritional needs.

我满足了我所有的基本营养需求。

And I, like so many other people that take AG1 regularly, just report feeling better.

我和许多其他定期服用 AG1 的人一样，只是报告感觉好多了。

And that shouldn't be surprising because it supports gut health, and of course, gut health supports immune system health and brain health.

这并不奇怪，因为它支持肠道健康，当然，肠道健康也支持免疫系统健康和大脑健康。

And it's supporting a ton of different cellular and organ processes that all interact with one another.

它支持大量相互相互作用的不同细胞和器官过程。

So while certain supplements are really directed towards one specific outcome, like sleeping better or being more alert, AG1 really is foundational nutritional support.

因此，虽然某些补充剂确实针对一种特定的结果，例如睡得更好或更加警觉，但 AG1 确实是基础营养支持。

It's really designed to support all of the systems of your brain and body that relate to mental health and physical health.

它的真正目的是支持与心理健康和身体健康相关的大脑和身体的所有系统。

If you'd like to try AG1, you can go to drinkag1.com/huberman to claim a special offer.

如果您想尝试 AG1，可以访问 Drinkag1.com/huberman 申请特别优惠。

They'll give you five free travel packs with your order, plus a year's supply of vitamin D3K2.

您订购后，他们将赠送 5 个免费旅行套装，以及一年的维生素 D3K2。

Again, that's drinkag1.com/huberman.

再说一遍，这是 Drinkag1.com/huberman。

What percentage of adults in the U.S. vape or use e-cigarettes?

美国成年人吸电子烟或使用电子烟的比例是多少？

Just by way of comparison?

只是通过比较吗？

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: So I've seen numbers anywhere from 5% to around 20%, depending on the statistic.

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher：所以我看到的数字从 5% 到 20% 左右，具体取决于统计数据。

I actually haven't looked at the latest data on adults, but the majority of adults who are using, it's a little bit different to think about it.

我其实没有看过成人的最新数据，但是大多数正在使用的成人，想想还是有点不一样的。

Adults are using, generally, they're not initiating tobacco through e-cigarettes.

一般来说，成年人并不是通过电子烟开始吸烟的。

They're generally, and I'm talking 30 and up, they generally have been smoking cigarettes, and then maybe they're trying to use e-cigarettes to quit.

他们通常是，我说的是 30 岁及以上，他们通常一直在吸烟，然后可能他们正在尝试使用电子烟来戒烟。

Which is a whole 'nother set of literature that it's not necessarily as effective as we're hoping that it is.

这是另一套文献，它不一定像我们希望的那样有效。

There isn't good literature on a population level that e-cigarettes help adults quit cigarettes.

目前还没有关于电子烟帮助成年人戒烟的人口层面的良好文献。

The difference with teenagers is they're initiating with e-cigarettes and they're not saying, huh, here's a cigarette, here's an e-cigarette, which one do I choose?

青少年的不同之处在于，他们开始吸电子烟，他们不会说，嗯，这是一支香烟，这是一支电子烟，我该选哪一个？

It's not that they're substituting or replacing, they're not using cigarettes.

这并不是说他们正在替代或替代，而是他们不使用香烟。

Some are now because they're switching back and forth, but they're initiating with e-cigarettes.

有些人现在是因为他们在来回切换，但他们是从电子烟开始的。

They're initiating because of the marketing.

他们之所以发起是因为营销。

They're initiating because of the flavors and the products and the ability to hide it.

他们之所以发起，是因为口味、产品以及隐藏它的能力。

Parents don't know what these products look like, so the landscape is very different.

父母不知道这些产品是什么样子，所以情况非常不同。

Andrew Huberman: So you were telling us why teens and adolescents start vaping.

安德鲁·胡伯曼：所以你告诉我们为什么青少年开始吸电子烟。

The marketing is clearly oriented toward them.

营销显然是针对他们的。

There are a number of reinforcing factors that, at least to my mind, as you're describing all this, make it sound like this stuff is supposed to be quote, unquote playful, that it's not a drug, that sort of thing.

有很多强化因素，至少在我看来，正如你所描述的这一切，让这些东西听起来像是应该被引用，不引用有趣的，它不是毒品之类的东西。

It reminds me a little bit of sugary cereals when I was a kid, you'd buy the cereal 'cause you wanted the taste, but you also wanted the colorful box.

它让我想起了小时候的含糖麦片，你会买麦片，因为你想要它的味道，但你也想要那个彩色的盒子。

You had the, you know, the cartoons that it related to on TV, and there's usually a toy inside that you wanted some surprise that you could then collect across boxes.

你知道，电视上有与之相关的卡通片，里面通常有一个玩具，你想要一些惊喜，然后你可以通过盒子收集它。

So there was a lot of levels of incentivization.

所以有很多级别的激励措施。

Why do they keep smoking or vaping?

他们为什么继续吸烟或吸电子烟？

Are they addicted to nicotine?

他们对尼古丁上瘾吗？

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: Yeah, absolutely.

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher：是的，绝对如此。

So the other reason why they start is they like the taste and they like the rush.

所以他们开始的另一个原因是他们喜欢这种味道并且喜欢匆忙。

So I've talked, too, so that's the other piece.

我也说过了，所以这是另一件事。

So a few more reasons why they start, and then certainly answer your question around the nicotine, teens have told me outright that they like the taste, they like the rush, they like the buzz.

因此，他们开始的更多原因，然后当然回答了你关于尼古丁的问题，青少年直接告诉我，他们喜欢这种味道，他们喜欢那种冲动，他们喜欢那种嗡嗡声。

And we could talk about how much nicotine is in there, it's astonishing, and I can explain that, But they like the buzz.

我们可以谈论里面有多少尼古丁，这太令人惊讶了，我可以解释这一点，但他们喜欢这种嗡嗡声。

They, another reason, by the way, is stress and coping.

顺便说一句，另一个原因是压力和应对。

Right now, teens are so stressed out.

现在，青少年压力很大。

They've been stressed out for years, but they're particularly stressed with the pandemic.

多年来，他们一直承受着巨大的压力，但新冠疫情让他们压力尤其大。

And even though we're a couple years out of the lockdown, teens are still, they're having socialization issues, social-emotional-learning issues.

尽管我们已经脱离封锁几年了，但青少年仍然存在社交问题、社交情感学习问题。

They're still confused, they missed a couple of years, particularly high school students may have missed part of middle school where you're learning to socialize with other people.

他们仍然很困惑，他们错过了几年，特别是高中生可能错过了中学阶段学习与他人交往的部分时间。

So they're very stressed.

所以他们压力很大。

And we know that there's a pretty strong relationship between stress, not being able to cope and using any drug, but including nicotine.

我们知道，压力、无法应对和使用任何药物（包括尼古丁）之间存在着密切的关系。

So there's a lot of different reasons why young people, and certainly the peers, and again, it's not peer pressure.

因此，年轻人，当然还有同龄人，有很多不同的原因，再说一次，这不是同龄人的压力。

It's more like a lot of friends are using it.

好像很多朋友都在用。

I've talked to teens who say, I wasn't intending on, but I tried it.

我和青少年交谈过，他们说，我不是故意的，但我尝试过。

Wow, I really like the taste, I like the flavor.

哇，我真的很喜欢这个味道，我喜欢这个味道。

And then there's the amount of nicotine that's in there.

然后就是里面的尼古丁含量。

In 2015, when the newer products came on the market, it was a salt-based nicotine.

2015年，当新产品上市时，它是盐基尼古丁。

So cigarettes, and then earlier e-cigarettes, have a freebase nicotine.

因此，香烟以及早期的电子烟都含有游离碱尼古丁。

Freebased nicotine uses ammonia and sugar to bind to the nicotine and the other chemicals.

游离尼古丁使用氨和糖与尼古丁和其他化学物质结合。

There's hundreds of chemicals in there to go through the body, lungs, into the brain and give you that rush.

其中有数百种化学物质可以穿过身体、肺部、进入大脑，让你感到兴奋。

The freebased nicotine is very caustic, if you think the litmus test, it's very much on the basic side of the litmus test there.

游离尼古丁具有很强的腐蚀性，如果您认为石蕊测试，它非常位于石蕊测试的碱性方面。

And if you're a nicotine-naive youth, which again, most teens starting with nicotine e-cigarettes have not used nicotine before, when you start, you don't want that caustic throat hit feeling.

如果你是一个对尼古丁一无所知的年轻人，同样，大多数开始使用尼古丁电子烟的青少年以前都没有使用过尼古丁，当你开始使用时，你不会想要那种腐蚀性的喉咙击中的感觉。

That's how it's described, teens will say they don't like it.

就是这样描述的，青少年会说他们不喜欢它。

They cough, it tasted bad.

他们咳嗽，味道很糟糕。

Well, to an adult who's been using cigarettes, they don't mind that, they're used to it, but a teen is not.

嗯，对于一个一直在吸烟的成年人来说，他们并不介意，他们已经习惯了，但青少年则不然。

Well, I will mention Juul here because it's relevant.

好吧，我会在这里提到 Juul，因为它是相关的。

Juul came on the market in 2015 with a salt-based nicotine--

Juul 于 2015 年上市，推出的是盐基尼古丁——

Andrew Huberman: Which essentially, for those who aren't familiar with caustic and litmus tests and things like that, the salt-based nicotine, as I understand, is quote, unquote smoother--

安德鲁·胡伯曼：本质上，对于那些不熟悉腐蚀性和石蕊测试之类的人来说，盐基尼古丁，据我所知，是引述，不引述更平滑——

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: Correct.

邦妮·哈尔彭-费尔舍：正确。

Andrew Huberman: --It causes less sort of coughing, static contraction of the muscles in the mouth and throat.

安德鲁·休伯曼：——它会减少咳嗽、口腔和喉咙肌肉的静态收缩。

And so it's basically more palpable, more of a kind of gradual on-ramp, which is exactly what a company wants.

所以它基本上更明显，更像是一种渐进的坡道，这正是公司想要的。

If you want somebody to start using something, you don't want to hit them square in the face.

如果你想让某人开始使用某样东西，你不想直接打他们的脸。

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: That's exactly right.

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher：完全正确。

That's exactly right.

完全正确。

So salt-based nicotine generally uses benzoic acid to move that litmus test needle from the caustic towards acidic, because it's an acid, but really towards neutral.

因此，盐基尼古丁通常使用苯甲酸将石蕊测试针从苛性碱移至酸性，因为它是酸，但实际上是中性的。

So exactly.

确实如此。

So when you use it, it's smooth, it's easy to use, you don't have that throat hit, you don't cough, you don't feel sick from it.

所以当你使用它时，它很光滑，很容易使用，你不会感到喉咙痛，不会咳嗽，也不会因此感到恶心。

So teens will say, and I've talked to teens and young adults who tried earlier e-cigarettes and didn't like it and then tried the salt-based style and said, ooh, I like it.

所以青少年会说，我和青少年和年轻人交谈过，他们早期尝试过电子烟，但不喜欢它，然后尝试了盐基烟，然后说，哦，我喜欢它。

Coupled with the flavors; it's also more absorbent.

再加上口味；它也更吸水。

So there's some suggestion and some early evidence that it's also more addictive.

因此，有一些建议和一些早期证据表明它也更容易上瘾。

So when those products first came on the market before, earlier e-cigarettes had, say, zero to 36 mg of nicotine, suddenly we jumped up to 59 mg per ml, which is about, generally about a 40, 41 mg because it's about a 0.7 ml.

因此，当这些产品之前首次上市时，早期的电子烟含有 0 到 36 毫克尼古丁，突然我们跃升至每毫升 59 毫克，通常约为 40、41 毫克，因为它约为 0.7 毫升。

Sorry.

对不起。

A little chemistry and math that we do a lot here, but you're looking at, basically, it's anywhere from the nicotine that you see in either one to two packs of cigarettes--

我们在这里做了很多化学和数学计算，但基本上，你看到的是，它与你在一包或两包香烟中看到的尼古丁无关——

Andrew Huberman: per--

安德鲁·休伯曼：每——

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: --per device, per pod, per e-cigarette device.

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher：——每个设备、每个烟弹、每个电子烟设备。

Andrew Huberman: And how long does a pod typically last?

Andrew Huberman：一个豆荚通常可以持续多长时间？

Let's say like a 15- or 16-year-old kid who's taking a hit off the vape pen, I don't know, what, five times a day.

比方说，就像一个 15 或 16 岁的孩子，每天抽五次电子烟，我不知道，什么。

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: So I've asked teens in some of the earlier publications we did.

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher：所以我在我们之前出版的一些出版物中询问了青少年。

Now, not with the newer devices, but the older devices, and they would say that they were using a pod a week, which is about two or three cigarettes a day, to one to four pods a day.

现在，不是使用较新的设备，而是使用较旧的设备，他们会说他们每周使用一个烟弹，大约每天两到三支烟，到每天一到四个烟弹。

Andrew Huberman: One to four pod a day?

Andrew Huberman：每天一到四个豆荚？

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: One to four.

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher：一比四。

Now, these are highly addicted teenagers.

现在，这些都是高度上瘾的青少年。

That is one to eight packs of cigarettes.

那是一到八包香烟。

Depending on the debates on how much nicotine is in there, but you're looking at several packs of cigarettes worth of nicotine.

这取决于关于其中含有多少尼古丁的争论，但你看到的是几包香烟的尼古丁含量。

Andrew Huberman: Okay.

安德鲁·休伯曼：好的。

So just to backtrack a little bit, because we got a little bit technical, which is great, but I want to make sure everyone's on board.

因此，我们要回溯一下，因为我们掌握了一些技术知识，这很好，但我想确保每个人都参与进来。

The amount of nicotine in one of these pods that goes into the vape pen or e-cig is significantly greater than the amount of nicotine in one pack of cigarettes.

进入电子烟或电子烟的其中一个烟弹中的尼古丁含量明显高于一包香烟中的尼古丁含量。

In many cases.

在很多情况下。

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: In many cases.

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher：在很多情况下。

Andrew Huberman: And there are many youth, so adolescents and teens, you said before, between ages of 10 and 21, roughly 10 to 18,10 to 21, that are going through as many as four pods per day, which has to be at least the equivalent of four packs of cigarettes, but could be as much as eight packs of cigarettes per day.

Andrew Huberman：有很多青少年，也就是青少年，你之前说过，年龄在 10 岁到 21 岁之间，大约是 10 岁到 18 岁，10 岁到 21 岁，他们每天吸食多达 4 包香烟，这至少相当于 4 包香烟，但也可能每天多达 8 包香烟。

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: Correct.

邦妮·哈尔彭-费尔舍：正确。

Andrew Huberman: In terms of nicotine concentration?

Andrew Huberman：就尼古丁浓度而言？

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: Correct.

邦妮·哈尔彭-费尔舍：正确。

Andrew Huberman: Now, I guess, to be fair, they are not smoking in the traditional sense, so that presumably there are some tars and other contaminants that are not going into their system, but we know that there are a lot of chemicals in these pods besides just nicotine.

安德鲁·胡伯曼：现在，我想，公平地说，他们并不是传统意义上的吸烟者，因此可能有一些焦油和其他污染物不会进入他们的系统，但我们知道这些烟弹中除了尼古丁之外还有很多化学物质。

And I think that's where a big source of the debate and interest is now, is how dangerous are those other chemicals?

我认为这就是现在争论和兴趣的一个重要来源：那些其他化学物质有多危险？

Is really an interesting question.

确实是一个有趣的问题。

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: So a lot of things that you said are really important to highlight.

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher：所以你所说的很多事情都需要强调。

Absolutely.

绝对地。

Now, not all teenagers are using four pods a day.

现在，并非所有青少年都每天使用四个豆荚。

These are extremely highly addicted teens, and unfortunately, teens we've seen with lung collapses and other pretty significant health issues.

这些都是极度上瘾的青少年，不幸的是，我们看到这些青少年患有肺衰竭和其他相当严重的健康问题。

Typically, teens are using maybe a pod a day.

通常，青少年每天可能使用一个豆荚。

The newer e-cigarettes, by the way, have probably four times that.

顺便说一句，较新的电子烟的含量可能是这个数字的四倍。

They're bigger volume.

它们的体积更大。

So you're looking at 60, 70 mg of nicotine.

所以你看到的尼古丁含量为 60、70 毫克。

Some of them are equivalent to about three to 500 cigarettes worth of nicotine.

其中一些尼古丁含量相当于约 3 至 500 支香烟。

Now, are they using them in a day?

现在，他们是在一天内使用它们吗？

Probably not.

可能不会。

We haven't done the studies on that, but it's really the first nicotine product we've had that you can use 24/7.

我们还没有对此进行研究，但这确实是我们第一个可以 24/7 使用的尼古丁产品。

When I've talked to teens, you know, I wake up in the middle of the night, I may check my phone and check my email.

当我和青少年交谈时，你知道，我在半夜醒来，我可能会检查我的手机并检查我的电子邮件。

Teens are waking up in the middle of the night to take a hit, and they're hiding them under their pillows and their nightstands, whatever, and they're telling me that they're just using them all the time and they could just suck on them all the time.

青少年会在半夜醒来接受打击，他们把它们藏在枕头和床头柜下，等等，他们告诉我他们只是一直在使用它们，他们可以一直吸吮它们。

Andrew Huberman: When you say all the time, that's interesting.

Andrew Huberman：当你说“一直”时，这很有趣。

Forgive me for interrupting, but.

请原谅我打扰，但是。

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: No, no, no.

邦妮·哈尔彭-费尔舍：不，不，不。

Andrew Huberman: Are they using it specifically to wake up, to study, or just to maintain baseline?

Andrew Huberman：他们是专门用它来起床、学习还是只是为了维持基线？

I mean, that's the problem with any addictive substance or habit-forming substance, is that what starts off as a rush becomes less of a rush, and then when one doesn't use, they feel below baseline.

我的意思是，这就是任何成瘾物质或成瘾物质的问题，就是一开始的匆忙变得不那么匆忙，然后当一个人不使用时，他们感觉低于基线。

I've done a lot of discussions about dopamine and baseline versus nonbaseline, peaks in dopamine — and some of that is smoothed out for general discussion.

我已经就多巴胺、基线与非基线、多巴胺峰值进行了很多讨论，其中一些内容已被平滑以供一般性讨论。

Dopamine does many things besides set up reward systems and incentives in the brain, but it's at least one of the things it does.

除了在大脑中建立奖励系统和激励机制之外，多巴胺还有很多作用，但这至少是它所做的事情之一。

So are kids starting off taking nicotine and feeling like, whoa, that makes them feel really elevated in terms of mood, focus and alertness, and then finding that without it, they're just depressed?

那么，孩子们在开始服用尼古丁时是否会感觉，哇，这让他们的情绪、注意力和警觉性都得到了提升，然后发现没有尼古丁，他们只是感到沮丧？

Is that the general theme?

这是总的主题吗？

I'm not trying to lead the witness here.

我并不是想在这里引导证人。

I just want to know what's going on internally.

我只是想知道内部发生了什么。

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: Absolutely.

邦妮·哈尔彭-费尔舍：当然。

No, no. All great questions there.

不，不。那里有所有很好的问题。

So what we're finding when we talk to teens is that pretty rapidly they are going from I like it to I need it.

因此，当我们与青少年交谈时，我们发现他们很快就会从“我喜欢它”转变为“我需要它”。

So, you know, your multipart question, which is great, what makes them start and what makes them continue?

所以，你知道，你的多部分问题很好，是什么让他们开始，又是什么让他们继续？

They start because of the flavors and the marketing and they like the taste and all that.

他们开始是因为口味和营销，他们喜欢味道等等。

They continue because of that high level of nicotine.

由于尼古丁含量较高，他们会继续使用。

And we are seeing that teens are addicted.

我们看到青少年已经上瘾了。

And we're seeing, we actually published a couple of studies showing that teens who have been using e-cigarettes in the past 30 days, that the majority are showing signs of addiction pretty rapidly, too, within a few weeks.

我们看到，我们实际上发表了几项研究，表明过去 30 天内一直使用电子烟的青少年中，大多数人在几周内也很快表现出上瘾的迹象。

It's such high levels of nicotine.

尼古丁含量如此之高。

And there are some people who don't believe that teens are becoming addicted to nicotine and that the levels of nicotine are not the same as what we're seeing in cigarettes.

有些人不相信青少年会对尼古丁上瘾，而且尼古丁的含量与我们在香烟中看到的不一样。

That's actually not the case, and we've seen more and more studies.

事实上事实并非如此，我们已经看到越来越多的研究。

And to the question of using it as soon as they wake up, there's a study by a colleague of mine that showed in the last few years, the data are showing that teens, a greater percentage of teens who use e-cigarettes are doing so in the first five minutes of waking.

至于一醒来就使用电子烟的问题，我的一位同事进行的一项研究表明，过去几年的数据显示，使用电子烟的青少年中有更大比例是在醒来的前五分钟内使用电子烟。

That is a sign of addiction.

这是上瘾的迹象。

So you wake up, maybe go to the bathroom, maybe not, and you take that hit.

所以你醒来，也许去洗手间，也许不去，然后你就受到了打击。

And so, and all the national data are showing, even though initiation may go down, the percentage of teens who are using daily has gone up.

因此，所有国家数据都显示，尽管开始使用的人数可能会下降，但每天使用的青少年比例却有所上升。

And I attribute that a lot to the type of nicotine, the salt-based nicotine, and to the huge amount of nicotine that's been on the market.

我将这很大程度上归因于尼古丁的类型，即盐基尼古丁，以及市场上大量的尼古丁。

So, yes, teens are definitely feeling it, they're definitely going through withdrawal symptoms, that feeling, shaking, the sweats, all the feelings, that they need, lack of concentration.

所以，是的，青少年肯定有这种感觉，他们肯定正在经历戒断症状，​​那种感觉，颤抖，出汗，他们需要的所有感觉，注意力不集中。

The problem is when you talk to teens, they think that e-cigarettes are helping with school.

问题是，当你与青少年交谈时，他们认为电子烟对学业有帮助。

And by the way, I've not heard a teen tell me that they started because of school reasons or concentration.

顺便说一句，我没有听到任何青少年告诉我他们是因为学校原因或注意力集中而开始的。

Maybe they're continuing for that reason.

也许他们会因为这个原因而继续下去。

But teens have said that taking the hit makes them feel good.

但青少年表示，受到打击让他们感觉良好。

What they don't understand is it's that it makes them feel not bad, right?

他们不明白的是，这让他们感觉不错，对吗？

The withdrawal is making them feel bad, and they don't realize that, that hit and that dopamine rush, that they now need it, that they're going through withdrawal either way.

戒断让他们感觉很糟糕，他们没有意识到，那种打击和多巴胺的激增，他们现在需要它，无论哪种方式，他们都正在经历戒断。

Andrew Huberman: I'm wondering where they're getting the money to pay for all this nicotine.

安德鲁·休伯曼：我想知道他们从哪里得到钱来支付所有这些尼古丁。

When I was a kid, I worked; I, like, mowed lawns, I had a newspaper out for a little while, but mostly started working when I think I was about 14 or so.

当我还是个孩子的时候，我工作过；我喜欢修剪草坪，有一段时间我还拿过一份报纸，但大部分时间我大概在 14 岁左右就开始工作了。

Coffee shop, skateboard shop, bus tables, did that kind of thing.

咖啡店、滑板店、公交车桌，都做过这样的事情。

So I made money, and I was able to use that money on the things that were important: music, skateboarding, and bus passes and stuff.

所以我赚了钱，我可以把这些钱用在重要的事情上：音乐、滑板、公交卡等等。

That that's what it was back then, food, et cetera.

这就是当时的情况，食物等等。

Where are 12-year-olds getting the money to buy four, or even one vape cartridge pod, as you called it, per day?

12岁的孩子哪里有钱每天买四个，甚至一个你所说的电子烟弹？

I mean, someone's got to pay for this stuff.

我的意思是，有人必须为这些东西付费。

I mean, unless they're stealing it, and I can't imagine that they're all stealing it.

我的意思是，除非他们偷了它，而且我无法想象他们都在偷它。

Where are they getting it?

他们从哪里得到它？

How are they getting it?

他们如何得到它？

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: Yeah, it's a great question.

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher：是的，这是一个很好的问题。

So there's not one way in terms of money.

所以在金钱方面没有一种方法。

I think there's questions around money and questions about access, right?

我认为存在关于金钱的问题和关于访问的问题，对吗？

And they're not necessarily the same thing.

而且它们不一定是同一件事。

Money, babysitting, the problem is when some of the newer products came on the market, some of them, say 2020, 2021, products were about a dollar or two per pod.

钱，保姆，问题是当一些较新的产品上市时，其中一些，比如 2020 年、2021 年的产品，每个 Pod 大约一两美元。

Compare that with a pack of cigarettes, which is 10 to $15, depending on the state you live in.

与一包香烟相比，一包香烟的价格为 10 至 15 美元，具体取决于您居住的州。

So they are cheap, they're easy to get.

所以它们很便宜，很容易得到。

Now, newer ones and older ones are a few dollars more, but they're not that expensive.

现在，新的和旧的要贵几美元，但也没有那么贵。

They started off very expensive when they first came on the market, but they haven't been.

它们刚上市时价格非常昂贵，但事实并非如此。

The other is they're sharing.

另一个是他们正在分享。

And we used to hear about pod parties where somebody buys the device, which is more expensive, buys the device, and then you bring your own, not beer, bring your own pod, which is a few dollars, then you pop it in, and then you share it around.

我们曾经听说过一些小烟派对，有人买了这个设备，它更贵，买了这个设备，然后你带上自己的，而不是啤酒，带上你自己的小烟，这是几美元，然后你把它放进去，然后你分享它。

We've also heard stories of a few teenagers buying them and then selling for a few cents or a few dollars a puff.

我们还听说过一些青少年购买它们然后以每口几美分或几美元的价格出售的故事。

So meet me in the bathroom; for 50 cents or a dollar, you can have a couple of puffs.

那么在浴室见我吧；花 50 美分或 1 美元，你就可以吸几口。

So I think teens are getting very creative.

所以我认为青少年变得非常有创造力。

We've also seen, unfortunately, parents buying e-cigarettes for their teens.

不幸的是，我们还看到父母为青少年购买电子烟。

Well, at least they're not smoking cigarettes.

好吧，至少他们不抽烟。

That's not the right comparison.

这不是正确的比较。

So I think they're very creative.

所以我认为他们非常有创意。

They're getting it in many, many different ways.

他们以很多很多不同的方式获得它。

I've heard students say, I'm not using my lunch money to buy lunch.

我听学生说，我不会用午餐钱来买午餐。

I'm going to use it to buy vapes.

我打算用它来买电子烟。

There's no one way.

没有一种办法。

There's not.

没有。

And unfortunately, access is easier than it should.

不幸的是，访问比应有的更容易。

By the way, one thing I think is incredibly important for people to understand is across the U.S., in 2019, December of 2019, the legal age to be allowed to purchase or to sell nicotine products across the U.S. has become 21.

顺便说一句，我认为人们必须了解的一件事非常重要，那就是在 2019 年，即 2019 年 12 月，美国各地允许购买或销售尼古丁产品的法定年龄已变为 21 岁。

So many people think it's still 18.

很多人认为还是18岁。

So you go into a vape shop or a tobacco shop, and if the shop owner doesn't realize it's 21, they'll sell it to somebody who's 18.

所以你走进一家电子烟店或烟草店，如果店主没有意识到它是 21 岁，他们就会把它卖给 18 岁的人。

And even if they know its 21, they're still selling it because there's not enforcement right now going on.

即使他们知道它是 21 岁，他们仍然会出售它，因为现在还没有强制执行。

So we really do need the public, we need all the parents listening, we need educators, police officers to really enforce and regulate this age restriction, because teens are getting them from vape shops really easily.

因此，我们确实需要公众，我们需要所有家长的倾听，我们需要教育工作者、警察真正执行和规范这一年龄限制，因为青少年很容易从电子烟商店购买电子烟。

They're getting it online really easily.

他们很容易在网上获得它。

They're buying them for each other.

他们互相买东西。

Somebody's going and buying 10 and then reselling them if the person looks older.

有人会去买 10 个，然后如果这个人看起来更老的话就转手卖掉。

There's not a lot of carding going on, or fake cards, ID cards is pretty easy still to get.

没有太多的刷卡或假卡，身份证仍然很容易获得。

So unfortunately, we have a product that is appealing to teens in a very unregulated market right now.

不幸的是，我们的产品目前在一个非常不受监管的市场上对青少年很有吸引力。

The FDA is not regulating it, local shops are not regulating it, that it's just, it is the Wild West out there.

FDA 没有监管它，当地商店也没有监管它，这只是外面的狂野西部。

Andrew Huberman: So setting aside the issue of whether or not vaping is, quote, unquote, better for us than smoking cigarettes, because that argument is a complicated one, to say the least.

安德鲁·休伯曼：因此，抛开电子烟是否比吸烟对我们更好的问题，因为至少可以说，这一论点是一个复杂的论点。

What do we know about the health hazards of vaping per se?

我们对电子烟本身的健康危害了解多少？

Does it increase lung disease?

它会增加肺部疾病吗？

Does it increase cancer rates?

它会增加癌症发病率吗？

My understanding is that nicotine, the chemical, is not what causes cancer in cigarettes.

我的理解是，尼古丁这种化学物质并不是香烟中致癌的原因。

It's the tars and other things that are consumed or brought into the lungs and therefore bloodstream when one smokes.

当人们吸烟时，焦油和其他物质会被消耗或带入肺部，从而进入血液。

That's not to say nicotine is safe, I have to be careful here.

这并不是说尼古丁是安全的，我在这里必须小心。

Sometimes clips get cut and people run wild.

有时剪辑会被剪掉，人们会发疯。

And I'm not saying nicotine is safe, but what are the problems with vaping nicotine?

我并不是说尼古丁是安全的，但是吸尼古丁有什么问题呢？

Even, let's just say one or two hits per day, especially in kids.

甚至，我们只说每天一两次点击，尤其是在儿童中。

Are there known challenges for brain development?

大脑发育是否存在已知的挑战？

Are there known challenges for cognitive development, are there known challenges for lung function?

认知发展是否存在已知的挑战，肺功能是否存在已知的挑战？

I mean, nicotine is a vasoconstrictor and it raises blood pressure, so that's basically stress on the system, chronic stress.

我的意思是，尼古丁是一种血管收缩剂，它会升高血压，所以这基本上是对系统的压力，慢性压力。

But what do we know about what vaping and e-cigarettes are doing to malign health?

但是我们对电子烟和电子烟对健康的危害了解多少呢？

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: Yeah, so first of all, let's start with the brain and nicotine.

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher：是的，首先，让我们从大脑和尼古丁开始。

Absolutely.

绝对地。

These high levels of nicotine, and really any nicotine is harmful to the developing brain.

这些高含量的尼古丁，实际上任何尼古丁都对发育中的大脑有害。

And our brains continue to develop until we're around 25, 24, 26, depending, but to around 25.

我们的大脑会持续发育，直到我们 25 岁、24 岁、26 岁左右（具体取决于 25 岁左右）。

So in that process of your brain developing, of your brain changing, if you introduce nicotine, you're changing your brain, you're changing the brain chemistry, and you're so much more likely to become addicted as an adolescent and a young adult.

因此，在你的大脑发育和大脑改变的过程中，如果你引入尼古丁，你就会改变你的大脑，你就会改变大脑的化学物质，而且你作为青少年和年轻的成年人更有可能上瘾。

The tobacco industry knows this.

烟草业知道这一点。

I mean, that's why they target teens.

我的意思是，这就是他们针对青少年的原因。

We know this with cigarettes — if we target a teen, then we're going to have them for life.

我们对香烟深知这一点——如果我们以青少年为目标，那么我们将终生吸食香烟。

Significantly more likely to become addicted because it actually rewires your brain, and there's plenty of evidence for that.

上瘾的可能性明显更大，因为它实际上会重新连接你的大脑，并且有大量证据证明这一点。

The other pieces that we're worried about is now, you're right, nicotine in terms of cancer.

你是对的，我们现在担心的其他部分是尼古丁与癌症的关系。

Although I will tell you, having talked to some oncologists, they would say the vast amount of nicotine still worries them in terms of cancer.

尽管我会告诉你，在与一些肿瘤学家交谈后，他们会说大量的尼古丁仍然让他们担心癌症。

We just haven't had enough research on e-cigarettes to really know.

我们只是还没有对电子烟进行足够的研究来真正了解。

Now, you're right.

现在，你是对的。

E-cigarettes do not have tar, but e-cigarettes have aldehydes.

电子烟没有焦油，但电子烟有醛类。

And aldehydes have been linked to cancer.

醛类与癌症有关。

So there's still some concern there.

所以还是有一些担忧。

There's some early anecdotal evidence, and probably some of my colleagues out there would say, no, no, there's pretty good evidence around cancer.

有一些早期的轶事证据，可能我的一些同事会说，不，不，关于癌症有相当好的证据。

We just don't have enough body of research.

我们只是没有足够的研究机构。

But again, it took 50 years to figure out cancer in cigarettes, we've not had the amount of e-cigarette use or that we saw with cigarettes for that long.

但同样，我们花了 50 年时间才发现香烟致癌，我们还没有看到电子烟的使用量或香烟使用的时间那么长。

For that many people to really know, it's still pretty new.

对于很多人来说，它仍然很新。

Andrew Huberman: I just might want to just interject the aldehydes, like paraformaldehyde, formaldehyde.

Andrew Huberman：我可能只是想插入醛类，比如多聚甲醛、甲醛。

These are the same chemicals that we use in laboratories to fix, as it's called, tissues to make those tissues firm so that then they can be cut and analyzed under the microscope.

这些化学物质与我们在实验室中用来固定组织的化学物质相同，使这些组织变得坚固，以便可以在显微镜下切割和分析它们。

Aldehydes cross-link proteins, basically change the configuration of proteins and turn what would otherwise be a pliable tissue into kind of a hard, rubbery — think of like a dense, eraser-like consistency, and in other words, not the configuration most conducive for those cells to live and thrive.

醛交联蛋白质，从根本上改变蛋白质的构型，并将原本柔韧的组织变成坚硬的、有弹性的——就像致密的、橡皮擦一样的稠度，换句话说，这不是最有利于这些细胞生存和繁衍的构型。

Actually, quite the opposite, which is why that's for sake of doing anatomy on, well, any body part, you use paraformaldehyde, glutaraldehyde and formaldehyde to cross-link proteins.

事实上，恰恰相反，这就是为什么为了对身体的任何部位进行解剖，你使用多聚甲醛、戊二醛和甲醛来交联蛋白质。

It basically kills tissue by cross-linking proteins, taking a nice pliable configuration that's amenable to life and twisting or shearing the proteins, more or less relative, cross-linking them and making them nice and rigid.

它基本上通过交联蛋白质来杀死组织，采用适合生命的良好柔韧结构，并或多或少相对地扭曲或剪切蛋白质，将它们交联并使它们变得柔软而坚硬。

So if that's happening in the living child, that can't be good.

因此，如果这种情况发生在活着的孩子身上，那就不好了。

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: That can't be good.

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher：那可不好。

Andrew Huberman: That can't be good.

安德鲁·胡伯曼：那可不太​​好。

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: Lungs, bloodstream, everything.

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher：肺、血液，一切。

Andrew Huberman: And all the aldehydes are carcinogens...

Andrew Huberman：所有的醛都是致癌物......

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: correct.

邦妮·哈尔彭-费尔舍：正确。

Andrew Huberman: We know they cause cancer.

Andrew Huberman：我们知道它们会导致癌症。

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: Right, right.

邦妮·哈尔彭-费尔舍：对，对。

And so that's why there's a lot of concern there.

这就是为什么人们对此有很多担忧。

And when I talk to teens, and in our curriculum, we often say, because when you just say, and you gave a beautiful explanation of the aldehydes, but for a teenager, what I generally say is, have you ever dissected, had biology and you dissect a frog?

当我和青少年交谈时，在我们的课程中，我们经常说，因为当你说的时候，你对醛给出了一个美丽的解释，但对于青少年来说，我通常说的是，你曾经解剖过，有生物学，你解剖过一只青蛙吗？

Yes.

是的。

How did it smell?

闻起来怎么样？

It was gross.

太恶心了。

Well, that's what you're putting into your body when you're vaping, because that's exactly the point.

嗯，这就是你在吸烟时放入身体的东西，因为这正是重点。

And that kind of helps them understand it a little bit more.

这可以帮助他们更多地理解它。

But there's a lot of concern around the aldehydes.

但醛类存在很多担忧。

There's lead, there's cadmium, there's propylene glycol and glycerin.

有铅、镉、丙二醇和甘油。

So there's a lot of other chemicals.

所以还有很多其他化学物质。

So no, we may not have the thousands of chemicals that we have in cigarettes, but we certainly have hundreds of chemicals in an e-cigarette, that's very concerning.

所以不，我们可能没有香烟中的数千种化学物质，但电子烟中肯定有数百种化学物质，这是非常令人担忧的。

So there are a lot of studies now really showing pretty significant effects of e-cigarette use on heart and lungs, a lot.

现在有很多研究确实表明电子烟的使用对心脏和肺部有相当显着的影响。

Not only all the chemicals we've mentioned, but also the flavorants.

不仅是我们提到的所有化学物质，还有调味剂。

There's cinnamon aldehyde, another aldehyde, there's vanillin, there's — what is it, the buttery flavor that's in there — is also a lot of concern.

有肉桂醛，另一种醛，有香草醛，还有——它是什么，里面有黄油味——也引起了很多关注。

So that you're inhaling these flavors, and I have often explained, you can take flavors, you can take butter and heat it to several hundred degrees and eat it if you don't burn your tongue, but you then take it and really inhale the resulting aerosol, and then we're seeing the lesions on the lungs, we're seeing young people who have been using e-cigarettes having lung collapses, pneumonia, asthma, amongst people who have not had seizures.

所以你吸入这些味道，我经常解释说，你可以吃味道，你可以吃黄油，把它加热到几百度，如果你不烧到你的舌头就吃掉它，但是你然后吸入它并真正吸入产生的气溶胶，然后我们看到肺部病变，我们看到一直使用电子烟的年轻人患有肺衰竭、肺炎、哮喘，而在没有癫痫发作的人中。

One of the teens I know who was using four pods a day was having seizures, so--

我认识的一位每天使用四个豆荚的青少年出现了癫痫发作，所以——

Andrew Huberman: Makes sense because nicotine is a stimulant.

Andrew Huberman：有道理，因为尼古丁是一种兴奋剂。

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: Yes.

邦妮·哈尔彭-费尔舍：是的。

Andrew Huberman: It can cause runaway excitability in the brain if too much is taken.

Andrew Huberman：如果服用过多，可能会导致大脑兴奋失控。

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: Yeah.

邦妮·哈尔彭-费尔舍：是的。

Andrew Huberman: If 40% to 60% of kids are using e-cigarettes and it's destructive to the lungs, and it sounds like the brain as well, where are all the young athletes?

Andrew Huberman：如果 40% 到 60% 的孩子使用电子烟，并且它对肺部有破坏性，而且听起来对大脑也有破坏性，那么所有年轻运动员都在哪里？

Are they the remaining, are they the remaining fraction?

他们是剩下的吗？他们是剩下的部分吗？

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: Yeah.

邦妮·哈尔彭-费尔舍：是的。

And I should say 40 to 60 is what schools are telling me.

我应该说 40 到 60 是学校告诉我的。

And that might just be using once in a while.

这可能只是偶尔使用一次。

We don't really know.

我们真的不知道。

Andrew Huberman: But even kids, just, like, I had to do PE class when I was in high school.

安德鲁·休伯曼：但即使是孩子，我在高中时也必须上体育课。

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: Yeah, yeah.

邦妮·哈尔彭-费尔舍：是的，是的。

Andrew Huberman: We had to run a few laps.

Andrew Huberman：我们必须跑几圈。

I can't imagine doing that if your lungs don't function properly.

我无法想象如果你的肺部功能不正常的话你会这么做。

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: No, it is actually much harder, and teens will say that.

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher：不，这实际上要困难得多，青少年会这么说。

And adults I know.

还有我认识的成年人。

I actually know an adult who said that when he went from smoking cigarettes to e-cigarettes, it actually was harder for him to exercise and to ride his bike and exercise and do other things on the e-cigarette compared to the cigarettes, that the impact on the lungs is so strong.

我认识一个成年人，他说，当他从吸香烟转向电子烟时，与香烟相比，他在电子烟上锻炼、骑自行车、运动和做其他事情实际上比香烟更困难，对肺部的影响是如此之大。

So you're right, it is probably hurting athletics right now, where actually there are some curriculums on athletes and vaping, and we're building one as well because there's a lot of.

所以你是对的，它现在可能正在伤害体育运动，实际上有一些关于运动员和电子烟的课程，我们也在建立一个，因为有很多。

And when you tell a teen, you know, I'm worried about lung cancer in 20 years, I don't care about 20 years from now, but you would tell a teen, it's harder to run, they're more likely to listen to you.

当你告诉一个青少年时，你知道，我担心 20 年后患肺癌，我不在乎 20 年后，但你会告诉一个青少年，跑步更难，他们更有可能听你的。

Andrew Huberman: I'd like to take a brief break and acknowledge one of our sponsors.

Andrew Huberman：我想短暂休息一下并感谢我们的一位赞助商。

Waking Up.

醒来。

Waking Up is a meditation app that offers hundreds of guided meditations, mindfulness trainings, yoga nidra sessions and more.

Wake Up 是一款冥想应用程序，提供数百种引导冥想、正念训练、瑜伽休息课程等。

I started meditating over three decades ago, and what I found in the ensuing years is that sometimes it was very easy for me to do my daily meditation practice.

我三十多年前开始冥想，在接下来的几年里我发现，有时我每天的冥想练习非常容易。

I was just really diligent.

我只是真的很勤奋。

But then as things would get more stressful, which of course, is exactly when I should have been meditating more, my meditation practice would fall off.

但随着事情变得更加紧张，当然，这正是我应该更多冥想的时候，我的冥想练习就会下降。

With Waking Up, they make it very easy to find and consistently use a given meditation practice.

通过唤醒，他们可以很容易地找到并持续使用给定的冥想练习。

It has very convenient reminders and they come in different durations.

它有非常方便的提醒，并且提醒的持续时间不同。

So even if you just have one minute or five minutes to meditate, you can still get your meditation in, which research shows is still highly beneficial.

因此，即使您只有一分钟或五分钟的冥想时间，您仍然可以进行冥想，研究表明这仍然非常有益。

In addition to the many different meditations on the Waking Up app, they also have yoga nidra sessions, which are a form of non-sleep deep rest that I personally find is extremely valuable for restoring mental and physical vigor.

除了唤醒应用程序上的许多不同冥想之外，他们还提供瑜伽休息课程，这是一种非睡眠深度休息形式，我个人认为对于恢复精神和身体活力非常有价值。

I tend to do a yoga nidra lasting anywhere from 10 to 20 minutes at least once a day.

我倾向于每天至少做一次持续 10 到 20 分钟的瑜伽休息术。

And if I ever wake up in the middle of the night and I need to fall back asleep, I also find yoga nidra to be extremely useful.

如果我在半夜醒来并需要重新入睡，我也发现瑜伽休息术非常有用。

If you'd like to try the Waking Up app, you can go to wakingup.com/huberman to try a free 30-day trial.

如果您想尝试 Waking Up 应用程序，可以访问 wakingup.com/huberman 尝试 30 天免费试用。

Again, that's wakingup.com/huberman.

再说一遍，那就是 wakingup.com/huberman。

We haven't talked too much about peer pressure, or just social pressure.

我们没有过多谈论同侪压力或社会压力。

I remember when I was a kid, it was in the "Just Say No" to drugs era, and I remember seeing the television commercials with the eggs, like two really beautiful, raw eggs, and say, this is your brain, and then it was just, your brain on drugs and it was frying.

我记得当我还是个孩子的时候，那是一个对毒品“说不”的时代，我记得看到电视广告里有鸡蛋，就像两个非常漂亮的生鸡蛋，然后说，这是你的大脑，然后就是，你的大脑沾上了毒品，正在煎炸。

Nancy Reagan was the big...

南希·里根是大...

was everywhere in that time, just say no, just say no. In any case, there must be a lot of data indicating what messages kids respond to.

那时候到处都是，说不，说不。无论如何，必须有大量数据表明孩子们对哪些消息做出了反应。

I was told, and I don't know if this is true, but I was told by a researcher that the antismoking campaign that was effective in kids was not one that convinced them that smoking was bad for their health, but was one that convinced them that it was their purchasing and use of cigarettes that was making other people rich, and then kind of demonizing those people, that was effective.

有人告诉我，我不知道这是否属实，但一位研究人员告诉我，对儿童有效的反吸烟运动并不是让他们相信吸烟有害健康，而是让他们相信正是他们购买和使用香烟让其他人致富，然后妖魔化这些人，这才是有效的。

Kind of like show the commercials of these guys kind of cackling behind closed doors, making fun of the people that were, in their words, you know, not bright enough to know that they were being taken advantage of.

有点像展示这些人在关起门来咯咯笑的广告，取笑那些用他们的话说，你知道的，不够聪明的人，不知道他们被利用了。

And then that set a kind of a psychological warfare between teens and these people that they perceived as I'm taking advantage of them for money.

然后，这在青少年和这些人之间引发了一场心理战，他们认为我在利用他们赚钱。

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: Right.

邦妮·哈尔彭-费尔舍：是的。

Andrew Huberman: And that that was effective in getting them to smoke less as opposed to telling them, hey, listen, smoking is really bad for your health.

安德鲁·休伯曼：这可以有效地让他们减少吸烟，而不是告诉他们，嘿，听着，吸烟确实对健康有害。

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: Right.

邦妮·哈尔彭-费尔舍：是的。

Absolutely.

绝对地。

So first of all, the Just Say No, not effective.

所以首先，“Just Say No”是没有效果的。

Saying, just say no, around any behavior to a teenager, whether it's tobacco, cannabis cigarettes and sex, does not work.

对于青少年的任何行为，无论是烟草、大麻香烟还是性行为，说“不”是行不通的。

It does not work.

它不起作用。

And for many reasons.

出于很多原因。

First of all, teens are curious.

首先，青少年有好奇心。

And when you say, just say no, why?

当你说，就说不，为什么？

Well, because it's bad for you.

好吧，因为这对你不好。

Well, wait a second.

好吧，等一下。

Exactly what you're saying.

正是你所说的。

Just telling me that it's bad for me, if you tell me I'm going to get lung cancer or I'm going to have lung disease or anything.

只是告诉我这对我不好，如果你告诉我我会患上肺癌或者我会患上肺病或其他什么疾病。

And I tried the e-cigarette and I didn't have lung problems, and instead I actually liked it.

我尝试了电子烟，肺部没有问题，而且我真的很喜欢它。

Then we look bad, we look like we're lying to teenagers.

然后我们看起来很糟糕，我们看起来像是在对青少年撒谎。

And instead, what we were talking about earlier, the feeling, the rush, the flavor, the taste, the perceived and real benefits outweigh the concerns over the risks as a teenager.

相反，我们之前谈论的，感觉、匆忙、味道、味道、感知到的和真正的好处超过了对青少年风险的担忧。

So when we say to a teen, just say no, don't.

因此，当我们对青少年说“不，不要”时。

And they say, well, why?

他们说，好吧，为什么？

Well, your brain, or your heart, or your lungs, or it's bad for you, they don't believe us, and we absolutely lose credibility.

好吧，你的大脑，或者你的心脏，或者你的肺，或者对你不好，他们不相信我们，我们绝对失去了信誉。

So when we talk to teens, and this is based on decision-making research that I've been doing for 25 years, we have to help teens weigh the benefits and the risks.

因此，当我们与青少年交谈时（这是基于我 25 年来所做的决策研究），我们必须帮助青少年权衡收益和风险。

Now, I don't mean that we say, hey, it's good for you, or, you're gonna like it, certainly not.

现在，我的意思并不是说，嘿，这对你有好处，或者，你会喜欢它，当然不会。

But if we only come from a risk model and a Just Say No model, that never works for teens.

但如果我们只采用风险模型和“只说不”模型，那么这对青少年来说永远不起作用。

We need to help them understand the balance.

我们需要帮助他们理解平衡。

And teens know that there are good things about using some drugs, real or perceived, and we can't lie to them on that.

青少年知道使用某些药物有好处，无论是真实的还是感知到的，我们不能在这一点上欺骗他们。

So that gets to then how do we have those messages?

那么我们如何获得这些消息呢？

And you're right.

你是对的。

If we only harp on, and our research would show this, too, the long-term health risks, your brain on drugs, those kinds of things that's so far in the future, or the trach.

如果我们只是喋喋不休，我们的研究也会表明这一点，长期的健康风险，你的大脑对药物的影响，那些遥远的未来的事情，或者气管炎。

You know, you're going to have a trach if you smoke, but they're showing the 80-year-old, and no 16-year-old even looks at somebody at that age or cares about somebody.

你知道，如果你抽烟就会得气管炎，但他们展示的是80岁的人，而没有一个16岁的人会看那个年龄的人或关心那个人。

That's so that other person, that that's the problem.

那就是其他人，这就是问题所在。

So we need to talk about the social aspects that teens really care about.

所以我们需要谈谈青少年真正关心的社会方面。

You may get wrinkles, although we don't know that so much with e-cigarettes, but the athletics, the things that are important to teens.

你可能会出现皱纹，尽管我们对电子烟了解不多，但体育运动对青少年来说很重要。

Now, the campaigns that you're talking about are really effective as well, particularly the mass campaign level that we see, social media campaign, which is, do you realize that the industry, e-cigarettes, tobacco, nicotine, cigarette, whatever you want to call it, is targeting you as a teenager on purpose.

Now, the campaigns that you're talking about are really effective as well, particularly the mass campaign level that we see, social media campaign, which is, do you realize that the industry, e-cigarettes, tobacco, nicotine, cigarette, whatever you want to call it, is targeting you as a teenager on purpose.

They want you as a smoker.

他们希望你成为一名吸烟者。

I used to go to middle school students and say, before e-cigarettes, when cigarettes were of concern, and I love saying to young people, 400,000 adults are dying each year from cigarette use, you're a replacement smoker.

我曾经对中学生说，在电子烟出现之前，当香烟受到关注时，我喜欢对年轻人说，每年有 40 万成年人因吸烟而死亡，你是替代吸烟者。

And it was great because teens said, we get really angry and said, wait, this 12-year-old boy was so cute, wait, I don't want to be a replacement smoker, Dr. Bonnie, it was a big deal to him, and I don't want to give money to the industry, and it's great.

And it was great because teens said, we get really angry and said, wait, this 12-year-old boy was so cute, wait, I don't want to be a replacement smoker, Dr. Bonnie, it was a big deal to him, and I don't want to give money to the industry, and it's great.

Channel that energy and get young people mad, that's what really worked.

引导这种能量并让年轻人疯狂，这才是真正有效的方法。

Showing that the seven dwarfs, we call it the seven CEOs of the, to big tobacco companies at the time, said nicotine's not addictive, nicotine's not addictive, our cigarettes are not addictive.

表现出七个小矮人，我们称之为七个CEO，对当时的大烟草公司说，尼古丁不会让人上瘾，尼古丁不会让人上瘾，我们的香烟不会让人上瘾。

And that clearly they were lying to teens.

很明显他们在对青少年撒谎。

You show that to a teen and explain how nicotine is addictive and they knew it, but they're trying to get you, works really well.

你向青少年展示这一点，并解释尼古丁如何让人上瘾，他们知道这一点，但他们试图让你明白，效果非常好。

And same thing with marketing.

营销也是如此。

We have a whole lesson on marketing.

我们有一整堂关于营销的课程。

Do you think that candy was for me?

你以为那颗糖是给我的吗？

Middle-aged adult?

中年成人？

It's for you.

这是给你的。

And that gets them mad because they don't want to be duped, they don't want to be targeted.

这让他们很生气，因为他们不想被欺骗，他们不想成为攻击目标。

That is a much better message.

这是一个更好的信息。

Now we still have to tell them about the health risks.

现在我们仍然必须告诉他们健康风险。

We absolutely do.

我们绝对愿意。

They still need the knowledge.

他们仍然需要知识。

They still need to understand what they're doing is unhealthy.

他们仍然需要了解自己所做的事情是不健康的。

But we can't do it in a lecturing way, and we can't do it in a way that makes them feel stupid.

但我们不能以说教的方式去做，也不能以让他们觉得愚蠢的方式去做。

We can't tell them their brains are developing till 25 and therefore they're dumb.

我们不能告诉他们，他们的大脑要到 25 岁才能发育，因此他们是愚蠢的。

Our lessons on talking about brain are more like, it's really cool that you're developing.

我们关于大脑的课程更像是，你正在发育，这真的很酷。

That's why you can do dance, that's why you can sing better, you can learn language.

这就是为什么你可以跳舞，这就是为什么你可以唱得更好，你可以学习语言。

There's so much that you could do that's really cool that I can't do right now, but because of that, that's why you're so much more likely to become addicted.

There's so much that you could do that's really cool that I can't do right now, but because of that, that's why you're so much more likely to become addicted.

And the industry knew that.

业界都知道这一点。

That's why they're targeting you.

这就是他们针对你的原因。

Those are the messages that work a lot better for teens.

这些信息对青少年来说效果更好。

Andrew Huberman: Sounds like the key is to never undervalue the spirit of defiance in youth and perhaps to wager it against these clearly destructive behaviors.

安德鲁·休伯曼：听起来关键是永远不要低估年轻人的反抗精神，或许可以用它来对抗这些明显的破坏性行为。

To be honest, I'm shocked that there's so much vape use and e-cigarette use.

老实说，我对电子烟和电子烟的使用如此之多感到震惊。

These numbers are staggering.

这些数字是惊人的。

Maybe we could weave in a discussion about cannabis.

也许我们可以讨论一下大麻。

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: Sure.

邦妮·哈尔彭-费尔舍：当然。

Andrew Huberman: I did an episode about cannabis.

安德鲁·休伯曼：我做了一集关于大麻的节目。

The landscape around cannabis has changed so much since I was a kid.

自从我还是个孩子的时候起，大麻周围的环境就发生了很大的变化。

It was highly illegal, at least where I grew up.

这是高度非法的，至少在我长大的地方是这样。

Now I think it's been decriminalized certain places, still illegal elsewhere.

Now I think it's been decriminalized certain places, still illegal elsewhere.

I don't want anyone getting in trouble as a consequence of not understanding the laws in their area.

我不希望任何人因为不了解所在地区的法律而陷入麻烦。

And outright legal, pretty easy to get in a lot of the country.

而且完全合法，在这个国家的很多地方都很容易进入。

And it's not clear that, at least with individual use, that it's being punished nearly as frequently as it used to be.

And it's not clear that, at least with individual use, that it's being punished nearly as frequently as it used to be.

So the 10-word summary of the cannabis thing is that the ratio of THC to CBD is important.

So the 10-word summary of the cannabis thing is that the ratio of THC to CBD is important.

It is true that a lot of cannabis has much, much higher levels of THC now than in the past.

确实，现在很多大麻的 THC 含量比过去高得多。

Although I'm told that high THC level cannabis always existed, but it seems to be the concentration of THC that is of, let's just say, concern as it relates to the potential development of psychosis, if there's a predisposition in terms of how addictive the cannabis is, and so on and so forth.

Although I'm told that high THC level cannabis always existed, but it seems to be the concentration of THC that is of, let's just say, concern as it relates to the potential development of psychosis, if there's a predisposition in terms of how addictive the cannabis is, and so on and so forth.

Which is not to say that CBD is totally innocuous, but it seems to be like the THC concentration is kind of the thing to mainly focus on.

Which is not to say that CBD is totally innocuous, but it seems to be like the THC concentration is kind of the thing to mainly focus on.

So what do we know about cannabis?

那么我们对大麻了解多少？

And here we're going to assume cannabis with a reasonable to high level of THC in it.

And here we're going to assume cannabis with a reasonable to high level of THC in it.

So not pure CBD.

所以不是纯粹的 CBD。

What do we know about vaping and e-cig use of cannabis specifically?

What do we know about vaping and e-cig use of cannabis specifically?

Is it true that youth that are taking nicotine by way of vape or e-cigarette then transition into using cannabis?

通过电子烟或电子烟摄入尼古丁的年轻人是否会转而使用大麻？

Is it sort of a gateway into cannabis use?

它是使用大麻的门户吗？

And how prevalent is cannabis use in kids age 10 to 21?

And how prevalent is cannabis use in kids age 10 to 21?

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: First of all, you're right.

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: First of all, you're right.

I mean, THC levels we're seeing, today's joint is about 10 joints when I was a teen.

I mean, THC levels we're seeing, today's joint is about 10 joints when I was a teen.

So the dramatic increases in the potency right now that we're seeing around THC, and then you get something like dabbing, which is about 80% THC versus 20% to 30% of the more mainstream products that we have on the market.

So the dramatic increases in the potency right now that we're seeing around THC, and then you get something like dabbing, which is about 80% THC versus 20% to 30% of the more mainstream products that we have on the market.

When I say mainstream, I mean like joints or e-cigarettes.

When I say mainstream, I mean like joints or e-cigarettes.

So the potency has gone up dramatically and it is of concern.

So the potency has gone up dramatically and it is of concern.

So depending on the study, you're going to see anywhere from 10 to 20% of teens saying that they're using some form of cannabis, either smoked or in the form of a joint or a blunt.

So depending on the study, you're going to see anywhere from 10 to 20% of teens saying that they're using some form of cannabis, either smoked or in the form of a joint or a blunt.

And for those who don't know, a blunt, a lot of people don't realize is a combination of both tobacco and cannabis.

对于那些不知道的人来说，直言不讳的是，很多人没有意识到它是烟草和大麻的结合。

So it's a cigar leaf, or some people buy a cigar and pull out the tobacco and put in the cannabis, or they'll just get the cigar leaf and roll the cannabis flower.

So it's a cigar leaf, or some people buy a cigar and pull out the tobacco and put in the cannabis, or they'll just get the cigar leaf and roll the cannabis flower.

Then you're getting both the kind of the double whammy and the chaser, the high of both of nicotine and THC.

Then you're getting both the kind of the double whammy and the chaser, the high of both of nicotine and THC.

So we're seeing a fair number of...

所以我们看到相当多的...

It's interesting, even though teens are not smoking cigarettes, they're still using joints, which is interesting, but very quickly increasing is e-cigarettes with cannabis in there.

It's interesting, even though teens are not smoking cigarettes, they're still using joints, which is interesting, but very quickly increasing is e-cigarettes with cannabis in there.

You could buy a cannabis-style e-cigarette, and that's been around for a long time with volcano vaporizers and specific cannabis vaporizers, that's not new.

You could buy a cannabis-style e-cigarette, and that's been around for a long time with volcano vaporizers and specific cannabis vaporizers, that's not new.

But it's become much, much more popular.

但它已经变得非常非常受欢迎。

But now we're also seeing teens buy a nicotine e-cigarette, inhale half of it and then add the cannabis wax or oil to it, and then basically get the combination.

But now we're also seeing teens buy a nicotine e-cigarette, inhale half of it and then add the cannabis wax or oil to it, and then basically get the combination.

I had one young teenager, probably 12-, 13-, 14-year-old young man, who said, yeah, I got a cherry nicotine vape and I inhaled half of it, he probably didn't use the word inhale, but I used half of it, and then I added in some cannabis oil, and now I had a cherry-flavored cannabis-nicotine device.

I had one young teenager, probably 12-, 13-, 14-year-old young man, who said, yeah, I got a cherry nicotine vape and I inhaled half of it, he probably didn't use the word inhale, but I used half of it, and then I added in some cannabis oil, and now I had a cherry-flavored cannabis-nicotine device.

So we're seeing that more and more.

所以我们越来越多地看到这种情况。

And even though you're not technically supposed to, when the manufacturers of nicotine e-cigarettes will say, don't open them and add stuff, a simple YouTube video will teach you how to do it.

And even though you're not technically supposed to, when the manufacturers of nicotine e-cigarettes will say, don't open them and add stuff, a simple YouTube video will teach you how to do it.

And unfortunately, the videos are not using gloves, and benzoic acid is covering your skin, and things like that.

And unfortunately, the videos are not using gloves, and benzoic acid is covering your skin, and things like that.

Andrew Huberman: But which is bad for--

Andrew Huberman：但这对——

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: Which is bad.

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher：这很糟糕。

Andrew Huberman: Does it go transdermally?

Andrew Huberman：它是透皮的吗？

Does it go through the skin?

它会穿过皮肤吗？

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: It, supposedly it does, yeah.

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher：是的，据说是这样。

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman: But if the benzoic acid is going transdermally, presumably when one inhales off one of these pods, they're also bringing benzoic acid into the lungs.

Andrew Huberman: But if the benzoic acid is going transdermally, presumably when one inhales off one of these pods, they're also bringing benzoic acid into the lungs.

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: Correct.

邦妮·哈尔彭-费尔舍：正确。

Andrew Huberman: And hopefully people realize this from our episodes on breathing, but if not, I'll just make it clear now that when you breathe in a substance, you know, an airborne substance into your lungs, because of the interface between the vasculature, the blood supply, and the lungs, I mean, basically, things pass from the lungs into the blood supply very, very readily.

Andrew Huberman: And hopefully people realize this from our episodes on breathing, but if not, I'll just make it clear now that when you breathe in a substance, you know, an airborne substance into your lungs, because of the interface between the vasculature, the blood supply, and the lungs, I mean, basically, things pass from the lungs into the blood supply very, very readily.

And then if those things are able, they'll cross the blood-brain barrier.

And then if those things are able, they'll cross the blood-brain barrier.

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: Correct.

邦妮·哈尔彭-费尔舍：正确。

Correct.

正确的。

And it only takes about seven to 10 seconds to go through the whole system and into the brain, too.

And it only takes about seven to 10 seconds to go through the whole system and into the brain, too.

So it's a very fast process.

所以这是一个非常快的过程。

So, yes, so teenagers are definitely vaping or using cannabis e-cigarettes.

所以，是的，青少年肯定会吸电子烟或使用大麻电子烟。

And the problem is, for one, teens'll think it's healthier than just like, nicotine e-cigarettes, they think it's healthier than combustible.

And the problem is, for one, teens'll think it's healthier than just like, nicotine e-cigarettes, they think it's healthier than combustible.

I mean, yes, you're not burning it, but you're still inhaling.

我的意思是，是的，你没有燃烧它，但你仍在吸气。

And you still are inhaling.

而你仍然在吸气。

There seems to be the propylene glycol, the glycerin, the flavorants, all the aldehydes, even if it's just, "just," a cannabis e-cigarette.

似乎有丙二醇、甘油、香料、所有醛类，即使它只是“只是”大麻电子烟。

So there's a lot of concern there.

所以那里有很多担忧。

And then addiction is still huge.

而且成瘾性仍然很大。

It's a huge issue when you're talking about cannabis, the same reasons that we talked about with nicotine, the brain development and so on.

当你谈论大麻时，这是一个大问题，就像我们谈论尼古丁、大脑发育等的原因一样。

Psychosis — just a lot, a lot to think about here — psychosis.

精神病——这里有很多很多值得思考的地方——精神病。

There's actually some scientists now who are really strongly saying it's not associated, it's causal, that if you are predetermined to have a mental health issue, psychosis, schizophrenia, then starting to use, or using cannabis can actually trigger and cause you to become psychotic.

There's actually some scientists now who are really strongly saying it's not associated, it's causal, that if you are predetermined to have a mental health issue, psychosis, schizophrenia, then starting to use, or using cannabis can actually trigger and cause you to become psychotic.

I don't totally understand the mechanism yet.

我还没有完全理解这个机制。

I don't think we totally do yet.

我认为我们还没有完全做到这一点。

But that there seems to be more than just, eh, it might happen, and it seems to be right in that older-adolescent, young-adult timeframe that it is happening.

But that there seems to be more than just, eh, it might happen, and it seems to be right in that older-adolescent, young-adult timeframe that it is happening.

So around the same time that the brain's developing and we're hardwiring the rest of our brain that that change is happening from a neuronal connection perspective.

因此，大约在大脑发育的同时，我们对大脑的其余部分进行硬连接，从神经元连接的角度来看，这种变化正在发生。

Andrew Huberman: My understanding, sorry to interrupt.

Andrew Huberman：我的理解，抱歉打扰。

My understanding is that indeed, the use of high THC cannabis in youth, in particular male youth, predisposes.

我的理解是，青少年，尤其是男性青少年，使用高 THC 大麻确实容易诱发这种情况。

And you're saying might even be causal toward the development of psychotic symptoms.

你说这甚至可能导致精神病症状的发展。

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: Correct.

邦妮·哈尔彭-费尔舍：正确。

Andrew Huberman: In late teens, early 20s.

Andrew Huberman：十几岁、二十出头的时候。

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: Correct.

邦妮·哈尔彭-费尔舍：正确。

Andrew Huberman: And that some of those cases are ones in which the psychosis is irreversible.

安德鲁·休伯曼：其中一些病例的精神病是不可逆转的。

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: Correct.

邦妮·哈尔彭-费尔舍：正确。

Andrew Huberman: Is it sometimes the case that somebody exhibits psychotic symptoms as the consequence of using THC and the psychotic symptoms resolve, or is it some sort of circuit switch that is then permanent?

Andrew Huberman：有时是否有人因使用 THC 而表现出精神病症状，并且精神病症状消失了，或者是某种永久性的电路开关？

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: You know, it's a good question.

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher：你知道，这是一个很好的问题。

I honestly don't really know the answer to that.

老实说，我真的不知道答案。

Of what percentage?

占多少比例？

The few cases I know of in talking to the psychiatrists would say that it, that it's causal and it may be permanent.

我所知道的少数案例在与精神科医生交谈时会说这是因果关系，而且可能是永久性的。

Now, it could be, it could be managed.

现在，它可能是可以被管理的。

It doesn't mean that somebody is going to be having psychotic episodes all the time.

这并不意味着某人会一直患有精神病发作。

I mean, certainly can be managed, and certainly we would say, please don't continue to use — would be very important.

我的意思是，当然可以管理，当然我们会说，请不要继续使用——这将非常重要。

But whether it's completely reversible is something that I'm not sure of.

但它是否完全可逆是我不确定的。

Somebody more versed in this, but we, what you do in your research and what I know is, you know, changes to the, to the neural circuitry is not changeable.

有人更精通这一点，但我们，你在研究中所做的事情以及我所知道的是，你知道，神经回路的变化是不可改变的。

When we hurt our brain cells, that is not something that we could recover from.

当我们的脑细胞受到伤害时，我们就无法恢复。

So that is very much concerning.

所以这是非常令人担忧的。

Andrew Huberman: Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。

As adults, there are very few new neurons added to the brain.

成年后，大脑中添加的新神经元很少。

There is significant plasticity and recovery of function in some cases — both by virtue of traumatic brain injury; certainly people can get over certain behavioral patterns, and that no doubt involves plasticity, but it, it takes work.

在某些情况下，由于创伤性脑损伤，功能具有显着的可塑性和恢复性；当然，人们可以克服某些行为模式，这无疑涉及可塑性，但这需要努力。

And when it comes to addiction, there's evidence that some of the reward circuitry can adjust.

当谈到成瘾时，有证据表明某些奖励回路可以调整。

But again, it takes adherence to specific things in order to make that happen.

但同样，需要坚持特定的事情才能实现这一目标。

I'm very concerned about this potentially causal relationship, but certainly correlation between high-THC-containing cannabis and psychosis, mostly because we already have a serious problem with psychosis on the planet.

我非常担心这种潜在的因果关系，但肯定是含有高四氢大麻酚的大麻和精神病之间的相关性，主要是因为我们地球上已经存在严重的精神病问题。

A lot of people don't realize that approximately 1% of the world's population has schizophrenia.

许多人没有意识到世界上大约 1% 的人口患有精神分裂症。

And by the way, I have to be careful with the language nowadays.

顺便说一句，我现在必须小心语言。

"Has schizophrenia" or "is schizophrenic," or — that language gets murky, but "meet the diagnostic criteria for schizophrenia," I think is a safe way to put it.

“患有精神分裂症”或“是精神分裂症”，或者——这种语言变得模糊，但“符合精神分裂症的诊断标准”，我认为这是一个安全的表达方式。

So if one is then adding to that number of people exhibiting and suffering from psychotic symptoms that prevent them from having functional work lives, et cetera, that's an issue.

因此，如果出现和患有精神病症状的人数增加，导致他们无法正常工作等，那就是一个问题。

How difficult is it for these adolescents and teens to quit vaping and e-cigarettes and cannabis?

对于这些青少年来说，戒掉电子烟和大麻有多困难？

I mean, can they quit just by deciding, are there programs, are they all going into recovery programs?

我的意思是，他们可以通过决定是否有计划，是否都进入恢复计划来退出？

Are there recovery programs in schools?

学校有恢复计划吗？

I mean, how successful are they in stopping?

我的意思是，他们在阻止方面有多成功？

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: It's really difficult.

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher：这真的很难。

And maybe I'll talk about nicotine first.

也许我会先谈谈尼古丁。

And the same would be true for cannabis, but a little bit less extent.

大麻也是如此，但程度要小一些。

I mean, both are addictive.

我的意思是，两者都会让人上瘾。

And interestingly, not a lot of people realize that cannabis is addictive.

有趣的是，没有多少人意识到大麻会让人上瘾。

And about one in six teens or people who are using, particularly under the age of 25, do become addicted.

大约六分之一的青少年或正在使用的人，特别是 25 岁以下的人，确实会上瘾。

Andrew Huberman: So they don't realize that it's, they.

安德鲁·休伯曼：所以他们没有意识到，他们。

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: Don't realize it's addictive.

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher：没有意识到它会让人上瘾。

Andrew Huberman: The argument I often heard was, it's not as bad as alcohol, which is kind of a lame argument.

安德鲁·休伯曼：我经常听到的论点是，它不像酒精那么糟糕，这是一个蹩脚的论点。

I understand why people default to that, but I mean, getting hit by a car might not be as bad as getting hit by a train, but I wouldn't even look at that analogy as accurate.

我理解为什么人们会默认这一点，但我的意思是，被汽车撞到可能不像被火车撞到那么糟糕，但我什至不认为这个类比准确。

There's just different levels of destructive, different types of destructive.

只是破坏程度不同，破坏类型不同。

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: Yeah.

邦妮·哈尔彭-费尔舍：是的。

Andrew Huberman: These not-as-bad-as-blank.

Andrew Huberman：这些并不像空白那么糟糕。

Doesn't really seem to work.

看起来确实不太管用。

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: No, no. And I often say, people say, well, why'd you start studying tobacco?

邦妮·哈尔彭-费尔舍：不，不。我经常说，人们会说，好吧，你为什么开始研究烟草？

I mean, there is no safe level of tobacco use, period.

我的意思是，烟草使用没有安全水平。

Yes, we have very few 30-year-olds who suddenly pick up a cigarette and become addicted — at that point, your development of your brain, now, if you use regularly, are you still going to hurt your lungs and heart and stuff like that?

是的，我们很少有30岁的人突然拿起一支烟就上瘾了——那时，你的大脑发育，现在，如果你经常吸烟，你还会伤害你的肺和心脏之类的东西吗？

Absolutely.

绝对地。

The brain changes may not be there in the same way, but most people don't pick up a cigarette or an e-cigarette for the first time in their 30s or 40s and on.

大脑的变化可能不会以同样的方式出现，但大多数人不会在 30 多岁或 40 多岁甚至更晚的时候第一次拿起香烟或电子烟。

So absolutely, it's addictive and it is probably the most difficult to quit drug that's out there.

所以绝对地，它会让人上瘾，而且可能是目前最难戒掉的毒品。

Whereas alcohol, we don't see, I mean, yes, we have alcoholism.

而酒精，我们看不到，我的意思是，是的，我们有酗酒。

I'm not downplaying that.

我并不是轻视这一点。

It's a huge issue in this country.

这在这个国家是一个大问题。

It's a huge issue on this planet, but you're not going to have people in two weeks, three weeks, suddenly say, I'm addicted to alcohol.

这是这个星球上的一个大问题，但你不会在两周、三周内就有人突然说，我对酒精上瘾了。

You are going to with nicotine, and you are with cannabis to some extent as well.

你会吸食尼古丁，在某种程度上你也会吸食大麻。

So yes, nicotine is incredibly addictive.

所以，是的，尼古丁非常容易上瘾。

And we have so many teens who are addictive, addicted to nicotine through e-cigarettes and really struggling to get off of it.

我们有很多青少年上瘾，通过电子烟对尼古丁上瘾，并且很难戒掉。

I gave a talk recently to a group of parents and they said, this is all great information, Bonnie, but how do I help my kid?

我最近对一群家长做了一次演讲，他们说，邦妮，这都是很棒的信息，但我该如何帮助我的孩子呢？

And I just felt awful because there's not a lot that we have.

我只是感觉很糟糕，因为我们拥有的东西并不多。

So taking a few different things.

所以采取一些不同的东西。

First of all, we don't have, there are some programs, there are inpatient programs.

首先，我们没有，有一些项目，有住院项目。

Absolutely.

绝对地。

Showing some patients.

显示一些患者。

Andrew Huberman: Inpatient program?

Andrew Huberman：住院计划？

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: There are actually some inpatient programs.

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher：实际上有一些住院项目。

Andrew Huberman: Those are going to be expensive or require that people have insurance that will cover that?

Andrew Huberman：这些费用会很昂贵，还是需要人们购买保险来承保？

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: Absolutely.

邦妮·哈尔彭-费尔舍：当然。

And they take weeks.

他们需要几周的时间。

And then you're taking a young person out of their natural environment, out of their school, out of their friends, stigmatizing, which hopefully we're not stigmatizing drug use anyway.

然后你把一个年轻人带离他们的自然环境，离开他们的学校，离开他们的朋友，污名化，希望我们无论如何都不会污名化吸毒。

But, you know, you take a young person at 12, 14, 16, you put them in another place, that's very difficult on them.

但是，你知道，你把一个 12、14、16 岁的年轻人放在另一个地方，这对他们来说非常困难。

And if part of why they're using in the first place is stress, you're just enhancing that.

如果他们首先使用的部分原因是压力，那么你只是在增强压力。

Outpatient programs, we have some things, but the problem is we don't have the best recommendations because we don't have great research.

门诊项目，我们有一些东西，但问题是我们没有最好的建议，因为我们没有很好的研究。

So, for example, nicotine replacement therapy, the patch, first of all, it's not authorized for use by the FDA, it's not been approved by the FDA for anybody under 18.

所以，比如说尼古丁替代疗法，贴片，首先，它没有被 FDA 授权使用，它没有被 FDA 批准用于任何 18 岁以下的人。

And yet we have a lot of teenagers who are addicted.

然而，我们有很多青少年上瘾。

We just don't have the right studies, and they haven't gone to the FDA for that approval.

我们只是没有正确的研究，而且他们也没有向 FDA 寻求批准。

Now, a lot of doctors are using nicotine patches and prescribing them for somebody under 18.

现在，许多医生正在使用尼古丁贴片并为 18 岁以下的人开处方。

It's considered off-label, but you still can do it, and most people would recommend it.

它被认为是标签外的，但你仍然可以这样做，而且大多数人都会推荐它。

The problem is, and I don't mean problem with using them.

问题是，我并不是说使用它们有问题。

I have no problem with, and I've often suggested to...

我没有任何问题，而且我经常建议...

I don't treat, I want to make sure that I'm not misquoted there either.

我不治疗，我想确保我也没有被错误引用。

I don't directly treat and see patients myself, but based on the evidence and the American Academy of Pediatrics recommendations, we should be using a patch with those under 18.

我本人不直接治疗和看诊患者，但根据证据和美国儿科学会的建议，我们应该对 18 岁以下的患者使用贴片。

But then the question is how much?

但接下来的问题是多少？

If a nicotine patch is about 21 milligrams of nicotine and a teenager is using 40 milligrams in a day, do you give two patches?

如果一个尼古丁贴片含有约 21 毫克尼古丁，而一个青少年每天使用 40 毫克尼古丁，您会贴两片吗？

And I've had some doctors say, wow, that's a lot of nicotine.

有些医生对我说，哇，尼古丁含量很高。

I say, well, they're using a lot of nicotine.

我说，好吧，他们使用了大量的尼古丁。

What I've heard some my adolescent-medicine colleagues have suggested is one patch and then supplement with gums and suckers and lozenges.

我听到一些青少年医学同事建议先使用一片贴片，然后补充口香糖、吸盘和含片。

Not as a starting, I don't mean like what we're seeing with some pouches out there like Zyn, as a starter.

不是作为一个开始，我的意思不是像我们看到的一些像 Zyn 这样的袋子，作为一个开始。

I don't mean that, I mean as a form of treatment--

我不是这个意思，我的意思是作为一种治疗形式——

Andrew Huberman: As a way to wean them off?

Andrew Huberman：作为一种让他们戒掉的方法？

So reducing the dosage over time?

那么随着时间的推移减少剂量？

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: Correct.

邦妮·哈尔彭-费尔舍：正确。

Correct.

正确的。

And now, but then they also don't have the hand-to-mouth piece that we see that is difficult.

现在，但他们也没有我们看到的困难的糊口部分。

So, gum, in this case I mean non-nicotine gum, just chewing regular gum.

所以，口香糖，在这种情况下我指的是非尼古丁口香糖，只是咀嚼普通口香糖。

I've heard teenagers say that their withdrawal lasts three to four minutes, so they have a...

我听青少年说他们的戒断持续三到四分钟，所以他们有......

one teenager said, I have a playlist on my phone that's each song is three to four minutes, and when I start to feel the withdrawal, I pop the music in my ears and I go do something and I listen to the song, and by then that uncomfortable feeling is over.

一位青少年说，我的手机上有一个播放列表，每首歌都是三到四分钟，当我开始感到退缩时，我会把音乐塞进耳朵里，然后我去做点什么，听听这首歌，那时那种不舒服的感觉就结束了。

I've heard teens say that they'll run, that there's many different things that they'll do.

我听青少年说他们会跑步，他们会做很多不同的事情。

Chewing on a toothpick, not a nicotine toothpick, but just a toothpick.

嚼牙签，不是尼古丁牙签，只是牙签。

Other ways to really get their mind off of that feeling is really important.

其他真正让他们摆脱这种感觉的方法非常重要。

But we also have to know with adults in cigarettes, it can take seven to11 tries.

但我们也必须知道，对于吸烟的成年人来说，可能需要七到十一次尝试。

So we can't expect until they're fully off of a cigarette.

所以我们不能指望他们完全戒烟。

Can't expect a teenager to quit overnight.

不能指望一个青少年会在一夜之间戒烟。

Andrew Huberman: Especially with the social pressure.

Andrew Huberman：尤其是在社会压力下。

And again, sorry to interrupt, but I think that the seven to 11 tries — did an episode on nicotine, and I talked about smoking a bit, and most people fail.

再次抱歉打扰，但我认为七到十一次的尝试 - 做了一个关于尼古丁的剧集，我谈到了一点吸烟，大多数人都失败了。

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: Most people fail.

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher：大多数人都会失败。

Andrew Huberman: They relapse.

安德鲁·休伯曼：他们旧病复发。

It's very, very difficult to quit smoking.

戒烟是非常非常困难的。

People that do it and stick to it are real heroes of the process.

这样做并坚持下去的人是这个过程中真正的英雄。

It's not easy, but that's with a heavy incentive, immediate health issues, sometimes it's financial, et cetera.

这并不容易，但这需要很大的激励、直接的健康问题，有时是财务问题，等等。

With kids, it feels like all the pressures are pushing in the opposite direction because it's socially rewarded.

对于孩子来说，感觉所有的压力都在向相反的方向推进，因为这是社会回报的。

They get that elevation of mood and focus and there's just oh, so much driving them to continue using.

他们的心情和注意力都得到了提升，而且有这么多的动力驱使他们继续使用。

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: Absolutely right.

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher：绝对正确。

One of the things that we do in our program to help teens quit is we talk about social withdrawal.

我们在帮助青少年戒烟的计划中所做的事情之一就是谈论社交退缩。

And it was actually one of our, we have a wonderful group of 40 youth who work with us.

这实际上是我们的一个，我们有一个由 40 名年轻人组成的优秀团队与我们一起工作。

We call our Youth Action Board, or YAB, or REACH lab YAB.

我们将我们的青年行动委员会 (Youth Action Board) 称为 YAB，或 REACH 实验室 YAB。

Our YABs say that we need to talk about social withdrawal, not just physical, because of exactly what you're talking about.

我们的 YAB 说我们需要谈论社交退缩，而不仅仅是身体上的退缩，因为正是你所谈论的内容。

They may not be able to go to that party on a Saturday night where they know their friends are vaping, because it'll, and we know the brain queues up, that they'll see or smell or witness somebody using an e-cigarette, and those cues will happen and they'll want to use it.

他们可能无法参加周六晚上的聚会，因为他们知道他们的朋友正在吸电子烟，因为我们知道他们的大脑会排队，他们会看到、闻到或目睹有人使用电子烟，这些提示就会发生，他们会想要使用它。

So they actually have to isolate themselves from their friend group who was using, so it's very difficult.

所以他们实际上必须将自己与正在使用的朋友群体隔离开来，所以这是非常困难的。

So really setting up your social milieu, really setting up your friends who are not using, really trying to talk and have your family around you.

因此，真正建立你的社交环境，真正建立你不使用的朋友，真正尝试交谈并让你的家人在你身边。

And I really tell parents, it's not the time to get pissed off with your kids for using.

我真的告诉​​父母，现在不是因为孩子使用而生气的时候。

It's the time to really help them.

现在是真正帮助他们的时候了。

Let's be in this together.

让我们一起参与其中。

And often I say the reason why they're using isn't their fault.

我经常说他们使用的原因不是他们的错。

Let's go back to, to the beginning of our conversation about marketing and that they're being targeted.

让我们回到我们关于营销的对话的开始，以及他们正在成为目标。

And teens didn't even know what was hitting them, what was going on.

青少年甚至不知道是什么在打击他们，发生了什么。

So let's not be mad at them.

所以我们不要生他们的气。

Let's be sympathetic and help.

让我们给予同情和帮助。

So they need the combination of nicotine replacement, they need to change their milieu, they need to have healthy snacks and water and exercise and all kinds of things around them.

因此，他们需要尼古丁替代品的组合，他们需要改变他们的环境，他们需要健康的零食、水和运动以及周围的各种事物。

And they may also need cognitive behavioral therapy or some other therapy to really get them.

他们可能还需要认知行为疗法或其他一些疗法才能真正实现这些目标。

It's not going to be a one-stop.

这不会是一站式的。

We need to work with them.

我们需要与他们合作。

And that's the same with cannabis, by the way, this is just any drugs.

大麻也是如此，顺便说一句，这只是任何毒品。

And just feels so bad, it is such a problem right now.

只是感觉很糟糕，现在就是这样一个问题。

When we built our curriculums, same thing I said, I was doing middle and high school and never thought I'd do elementary, and we have an elementary curriculum.

当我们建立我们的课程时，我说过同样的话，我在读初中和高中，从来没有想过我会读小学，我们有小学课程。

I thought I was only going to do prevention, we now have intervention and moving towards cessation.

我以为我只会做预防，现在我们进行干预并走向戒烟。

That's how many young people are just struggling right now.

这就是现在有多少年轻人正在挣扎。

Andrew Huberman: When I was in high school, there seemed to be a phenomenon of certain behaviors allowed kids to have some social clout by virtue of, I guess they used to call it holding.

安德鲁·胡伯曼：当我上高中时，似乎存在一种现象，某些行为可以让孩子们拥有一些社会影响力，我猜他们过去称之为“控股”。

Like, if someone had weed or if somebody, yeah, if they had weed, then it sort of gave them a position in the social structure.

就像，如果有人吸大麻，或者如果有人吸大麻，是的，如果他们吸大麻，那么这就给了他们在社会结构中的地位。

Oftentimes, the kids that, you know, I mean, I was friendly and knew most people in my high school class, you know, and a few of them were kind of, like, less socially engaged than others.

通常，孩子们，你知道，我的意思是，我很友好，并且认识高中班上的大多数人，你知道，其中一些人比其他人更少参与社交活动。

But then at some point midway through high school, one of them was like, start showing up with weed at parties or something, and suddenly, like, they had, like, a social clout.

但在高中中期的某个时刻，其中一个人开始带着大麻出现在聚会或其他什么地方，突然间，他们拥有了社会影响力。

It was kind of interesting to see how, you know, having paraphernalia, having nicotine or cannabis or whatever it is, I think, has long been kind of like an instant sort of route to inserting oneself into a social structure, which is obviously unhealthy — I'm not promoting this.

很有趣的是，我认为，拥有随身物品、尼古丁或大麻或其他什么东西，长期以来一直是一种将自己融入社会结构的即时途径，这显然是不健康的——我不是在提倡这一点。

And then it is social.

然后是社交。

There's sort of an instant substrate for communication.

有一种即时的沟通基础。

When I was growing up, I worked at a skateboard shop, and on my break, I would go behind the shop, there's a little alley there.

当我长大的时候，我在一家滑板店工作，休息的时候，我会去商店后面，那里有一条小巷。

We'd skateboard this little bump, but occasionally employees would share a cigarette or you'd ask someone for a cigarette.

我们会在这个小凸起上滑行，但有时员工会分享一支香烟，或者你会向别人要一支香烟。

This was kind of a way of bridging social gaps.

这是弥合社会差距的一种方式。

So again, I feel like it's so hard to be a teenager.

再次，我觉得作为一个青少年真是太难了。

There's so much going on internally and externally, and everything you're talking about in terms of the negative health effects, the paraphernalia, the marketing, the taste, addictive qualities of it, et cetera, just start to pile on all these challenges to staying away from it.

内部和外部发生了很多事情，你所谈论的一切对健康的负面影响、用具、营销、味道、成瘾品质等等，都开始堆积所有这些挑战来远离它。

But a big one seems to be the kind of instant social cred that one gets when they participate in something that other people are participating in.

但重大的似乎是当一个人参与其他人正在参与的事情时立即获得的社会信誉。

Because, for instance, like a sport, if there's a pickup basketball game, you have to play reasonably well to get into the game.

因为，例如，就像一项运动一样，如果有一场临时篮球比赛，你必须打得相当好才能进入比赛。

Otherwise you're...

不然你就...

It's not going to be easy, or you have to be very bold.

这并不容易，或者你必须非常大胆。

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: Right.

邦妮·哈尔彭-费尔舍：是的。

Andrew Huberman: So unless you're engaged in a sport, you're in theater, or you're doing other things, it's sort of an instant route.

安德鲁·胡伯曼：所以除非你从事一项运动，你在剧院，或者你在做其他事情，否则这是一种即时路线。

Okay, I think I've made my point.

好吧，我想我已经表达了我的观点。

Is there anything about that that, by way of understanding, can help create replacement behaviors?

通过理解，有什么可以帮助创造替代行为吗？

I mean, it's going to be hard to take a kid whose entire life is hanging out with their friends and vaping cannabis or nicotine after school and hanging around and playing on their phone and saying, hey, listen, you're going to quit vaping nicotine.

我的意思是，对于一个一生都在和朋友一起出去玩、放学后吸大麻或尼古丁、闲逛、玩手机并说，嘿，听着，你要戒掉尼古丁的孩子来说，这是很难接受的。

You're going to feel worse, your friends are all going to be doing it, and you'll still be their friend, but you're not really part of it.

你会感觉更糟，你的朋友都会这么做，而你仍然是他们的朋友，但你并不是真正的一部分。

It's almost like you have to create a culture of quitting before this can really go the other direction.

这几乎就像你必须创造一种戒烟文化，然后才能真正走向另一个方向。

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: You do.

邦妮·哈尔彭-费尔舍：是的。

And what you're saying is so correct and so relevant and why I feel so bad for teens right now.

你说的是如此正确和相关，也是为什么我现在对青少年感到如此难过。

And the social media, right.

还有社交媒体，对吧。

You put that in there as well, and it's all over the place right now with them.

你也把它放在那里，现在它们就到处都是了。

They're bombarded by all of the different factors that you talked about.

他们受到你谈到的所有不同因素的轰炸。

And it was interesting, we were talking about earlier around the social aspects, too.

有趣的是，我们之前也讨论过社交方面的问题。

I was thinking there was a point where it was so cool, particularly around Juul, it was so cool to Juul that I had teens come up to me and say, Dr. Bonnie, do you have a fake e-cigarette?

我在想有一个点很酷，特别是在 Juul 周围，对 Juul 来说太酷了，以至于有青少年走过来对我说，邦妮博士，你有假电子烟吗？

And I said, a fake e-cigarette?

我说，假电子烟？

Well, yeah, all my friends are using and I don't want to, but I want to fake it.

嗯，是的，我所有的朋友都在使用，我不想，但我想假装它。

And I just felt so bad and I said, well, I'm not going to get you a fake e-cigarette, but I will help you with refusal skills and teach you how to say no, but in this case, not just say no, but teach you how to feel good about saying no to certain things that you don't want to be doing.

我只是感觉很糟糕，我说，好吧，我不会给你假电子烟，但我会帮助你拒绝技巧，教你如何说不，但在这种情况下，不仅仅是说不，而是教你如何对某些你不想做的事情说不感觉良好。

And during that time, it was very difficult for teens to come up and say, I either want to quit or I don't want to be a user, I just don't want to start because that was not cool.

在那段时间里，青少年很难站出来说，我要么想退出，要么我不想成为用户，我只是不想开始，因为那不酷。

I think we changed in the last couple of years.

我认为我们在过去几年中发生了变化。

Thankfully, I think there are more teens who are not using, who are open to it or who are open to quitting, a lot of teens want to quit right now.

值得庆幸的是，我认为有更多的青少年不使用、愿意接受或愿意戒烟，很多青少年现在想戒烟。

So thankfully we're in a new era where this, yes, the pressures to use are absolutely there, but there's starting to be a tide change where we're getting more teens who are getting on the so-called bandwagon to either quit or not use.

值得庆幸的是，我们正处于一个新时代，是的，使用的压力绝对存在，但趋势开始发生变化，越来越多的青少年加入所谓的潮流，要么戒烟，要么不使用。

I think the social supports are being there, lot more than we've ever seen before.

我认为社会支持是存在的，比我们以前见过的要多得多。

We have more youth groups who are getting on board of either trying to help quit or trying to make sure that it's okay not to use.

我们有更多的青年团体加入进来，要么试图帮助戒烟，要么试图确保不使用也没关系。

It's still hard and what you're talking about.

这仍然很难，你在说什么。

So it's our job as adults and healthcare providers and community partners and educators to really talk to young people, to set up those social groups and say it's okay not to use.

因此，作为成年人、医疗保健提供者、社区合作伙伴和教育工作者，我们的工作是真正与年轻人交谈，建立这些社会团体，并告诉他们可以不使用。

It's okay to come on over to this group.

加入这个小组就可以了。

Yeah, maybe you are not going to be with that same social group on Saturday night, let's start a new social group for you.

是的，也许周六晚上您不会再加入同一个社交群组，让我们为您创建一个新的社交群组。

I'm not saying it's easy.

我并不是说这很容易。

This is not easy for young people, and it's not easy — parents are struggling too.

这对年轻人来说并不容易，也不容易——父母们也在挣扎。

They're struggling to know how to talk to their teenagers.

他们很难知道如何与青少年交谈。

But this is what we have to work towards and setting up those social networks of it's cool not to use.

但这就是我们必须努力实现的目标，并建立那些不使用也很酷的社交网络。

One of the other things, by the way, that we talk about is the environment.

顺便说一句，我们谈论的另一件事是环境。

When we talk to teens about not using and why it's bad for them, heart, lungs, et cetera and all the things and being duped and be marketed to and the money, the environment piece has also been interesting.

当我们与青少年谈论不使用电子产品以及为什么它对他们、心脏、肺等有害，以及被欺骗、被推销和赚钱时，环境部分也很有趣。

Teens right now may not care about their hearts, their lungs 20 years from now, they care about the environment.

现在的青少年可能不关心他们的心脏，二十年后他们的肺，他们关心环境。

And there are environmental aspects to these, the plastics, the pods, don't disappear.

这些也有环境方面的因素，塑料、豆荚不会消失。

The benzoic acid does not evaporate, and we've got secondhand vapor, secondhand smoke, secondhand and thirdhand.

苯甲酸不会蒸发，我们有二手蒸气、二手烟、二手和三手。

So what I mean by that is, if I were to use an e-cigarette near you, you would actually get a lot of the volatile organic chemicals.

所以我的意思是，如果我在你附近使用电子烟，你实际上会吸入大量挥发性有机化学物质。

A lot of the nicotine is in the air, actually, some studies suggest COVID might even be on those droplets.

事实上，空气中含有大量尼古丁，一些研究表明，这些飞沫中甚至可能含有新冠病毒。

There's a lot of issues there.

这里面有很多问题。

And then thirdhand is it just doesn't dissipate.

第三，它就是不消散。

That vapor, aerosol, it's not a vapor, that aerosol then settles into carpets and clothes and so on.

那个蒸气，气溶胶，它不是蒸气，那个气溶胶然后沉淀到地毯和衣服等上。

And this is toxic to pets, to children, things like that.

这对宠物、儿童等都是有毒的。

So we talk to teens about that, that's another way to get young people to be willing to either quit or to rally around not using is the environment.

因此，我们与青少年谈论这一点，这是让年轻人愿意戒烟或团结起来不利用环境的另一种方式。

If I washed dishes for too long, my younger was out of the house, but when she comes over, I get yelled across the room, mom, turn the water off, the environment, we have to save water.

如果我洗碗时间太长，我的弟弟就会出门，但当她过来时，我会在房间里大喊，妈妈，把水关掉，环境，我们要节约用水。

That's what they care about so much that if we could at least get that into young people's hands, say, you know what?

这就是他们非常关心的事情，如果我们至少能够将其交到年轻人手中，比如说，你知道吗？

You may not care about yourself, but what about your friends?

你可能不关心自己，但你的朋友呢？

And what about the environment?

那么环境呢？

I think we can also shift some of the generation right now.

我认为我们现在也可以改变这一代人中的一些人。

Andrew Huberman: Interesting.

安德鲁·休伯曼：有趣。

Yeah, I think replacement behaviors, concern for the environment, seem like good incentives.

是的，我认为替代行为、对环境的关注似乎是很好的激励措施。

I'm hearing all this.

我正在听到这一切。

I feel really lucky that I was always obsessed with something growing up, whether or not it was like birds in fish tanks or skateboarding or, prior to that, soccer or, you know, I mean, certainly there were drugs and alcohol around, but there were always activities that kept us busy.

我感到非常幸运，因为我在成长过程中总是痴迷于某些东西，无论是鱼缸里的鸟还是滑板，或者之前的足球，或者，你知道，我的意思是，周围肯定有毒品和酒精，但总有一些活动让我们忙碌。

And I guess I wonder whether or not the advent of social media has created less interest in activities, after-school activities, I guess they used to call them.

我想我想知道社交媒体的出现是否降低了人们对课外活动的兴趣，我猜他们曾经这样称呼它们。

But even if it's video games, if it's playing a sport, if it's theater, if it's art, if it's music, presumably kids are still doing all that stuff.

但即使是电子游戏，如果是体育运动，如果是戏剧，如果是艺术，如果是音乐，想必孩子们仍在做所有这些事情。

But is it the case that the kids that are vaping, let's say nicotine, maybe cannabis as well, are less likely to be engaged in other activities?

但吸电子烟（比如说尼古丁，也许还有大麻）的孩子是否不太可能从事其他活动？

I mean, is this thing becoming just kind of a closed loop of reward?

我的意思是，这是否会成为奖励的闭环？

I mean, that's, to me, the real danger of any substance that increases the dopamine system activation without a lot of effort, right?

我的意思是，对我来说，这就是任何无需付出很大努力就能增加多巴胺系统激活的物质的真正危险，对吧？

Because as you and I know that the whole of dopamine circuitry as it relates to reward is all about effort, reward, reinforcement, effort, reward, reinforcement.

因为正如你我所知，与奖励相关的整个多巴胺回路都是关于努力、奖励、强化、努力、奖励、强化。

But the effort piece is key, and drugs basically bypass the effort piece, and then you get the reward reinforcement, and then eventually the rewarding and reinforcing levels of return on that drug, nicotine, cannabis, et cetera diminishes, and then you're just caught in a behavioral loop.

但努力部分是关键，而药物基本上绕过了努力部分，然后你得到了奖励强化，然后最终药物、尼古丁、大麻等的回报的奖励和强化水平减少，然后你就陷入了行为循环。

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: Right?

邦妮·哈尔彭-费尔舍：对吗？

Right.

正确的。

Absolutely.

绝对地。

Andrew Huberman: So, you know, are kids doing less stuff?

Andrew Huberman：那么，你知道，孩子们做的事情是不是越来越少了？

Are they studying less as a consequence of this?

他们的学习是否因此而减少？

Are they playing fewer sports?

他们参加的运动较少吗？

Are they less engaged in youth theater and music, youth groups and things like that?

他们较少参与青年戏剧和音乐、青年团体之类的活动吗？

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: When we were talking about cigarettes, when I first started my career, up until probably 2014, I would say, yes, you're absolutely correct.

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher：当我们谈论香烟时，当我刚开始我的职业生涯时，直到 2014 年，我会说，是的，你是绝对正确的。

And it was generally the teens who would say, I'm bored, and I didn't know what to do with myself, and that's why I picked up cigarettes, or I'm not an athlete, or this was my social outlet.

通常青少年会说，我很无聊，我不知道自己该怎么办，这就是为什么我拿起香烟，或者我不是运动员，或者这是我的社交出口。

I haven't seen that as a result as much with e-cigarettes, now as a result of e-cigarettes, yes.

我还没有看到电子烟的结果那么多，现在是电子烟的结果，是的。

But not as a cause of using, because it's so ubiquitous.

但这不是使用的原因，因为它无处不在。

E-cigarettes we're seeing everywhere.

电子烟我们随处可见。

It doesn't matter if you're how old you are, male, female — used to be more males using because some of the earlier devices were more tech, and guys were using it, and some of the females didn't want to put them in their purse because they would leak.

不管你多大，无论是男性还是女性——过去更多是男性使用，因为一些早期的设备技术含量更高，男性也在使用它，而一些女性不想把它们放在钱包里，因为它们会泄漏。

We now are seeing more of an equal rate, if not a little bit more female using.

我们现在看到，女性使用率即使不是多一点，也更加平等。

It's not your so-called bad or good kids, it's not anything, it's not the young people who are struggling with school, it's everywhere right now, independent of location, race, ethnicity, things like that.

这不是你所谓的坏孩子或好孩子，这不是任何事情，这不是那些在学校里苦苦挣扎的年轻人，它现在无处不在，与地点、种族、民族等无关。

So I don't see so much what you're talking about in terms of a predictor, in terms of a result, absolutely.

所以我绝对不明白你所说的预测因素、结果。

I mean, then we're seeing teens who become more isolated, who are not engaged as much, who are more bored because they're sitting home and they're vaping.

我的意思是，我们会看到青少年变得更加孤立，他们不再那么投入，他们更加无聊，因为他们坐在家里吸电子烟。

But I also see a lot of young people sitting around together vaping.

但我也看到很多年轻人坐在一起吸电子烟。

So I do think that that landscape has changed.

所以我确实认为这种情况已经改变了。

Is it gonna change back?

还会变回来吗？

I don't know as hopefully we change the culture again, but it's an interesting thought.

我不知道我们是否希望再次改变文化，但这是一个有趣的想法。

I mean, as soon as you said that, I was thinking, yeah, I mean, they're certainly not out as much as they used to be in terms of, and we were talking about this at the beginning, we're not seeing them out in parks as much, seen them playing pickup sports games as much as we used to.

我的意思是，你一这么说，我就在想，是的，我的意思是，他们肯定不像以前那样经常外出，我们一开始就讨论过这个，我们没有像以前那样经常在公园里看到他们，看到他们玩临时体育比赛。

But I don't think that's because of e-cigarette use.

但我不认为这是因为电子烟的使用。

I think that's because of social media and just the whole change.

我认为这是因为社交媒体和整个变化。

And honestly, parents being afraid of letting their kids out for some predatory behavior in other ways.

老实说，父母害怕让孩子以其他方式进行掠夺性行为。

Andrew Huberman: You mean if kids are let out of the house, they're more at risk to predatory behavior?

安德鲁·休伯曼：你的意思是，如果孩子们被放出家门，他们遭受掠夺行为的风险就更大？

But of course they're also at risk, but, just by use of the phone.

当然，他们也面临着风险，但是，仅仅通过使用手机。

Because the phone connects everywhere.

因为手机无处不在。

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: Absolutely, the phone connects everywhere.

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher：当然，手机可以连接任何地方。

And that's something we try to teach teens as well.

这也是我们试图教给青少年的东西。

But I think that that's been something that parents are worried about, you know, I have to almost, the pendulum almost swung too much of, now I have to keep my kid in because I don't want to let them out of the house, and I don't want to let them alone driving and alone at the park and things like that.

但我认为这是父母担心的事情，你知道，我几乎不得不担心，钟摆几乎摆动太多，现在我必须把我的孩子留在家里，因为我不想让他们离开家，我不想让他们独自开车，独自在公园之类的事情。

But I think that we've reduced, you were talking earlier about autonomy.

但我认为我们已经减少了，你之前谈到了自治。

We've reduced teens' just autonomy, and they have to get into a little bit of trouble.

我们减少了青少年的自主权，他们不得不陷入一些麻烦。

They have to jaywalk.

他们必须乱穿马路。

They have to do, I mean, I'm not encouraging, but, you know, but there's some natural amount of getting together and hanging out and being crazy at the park and playing, and playing games and things like that.

他们必须这样做，我的意思是，我并不鼓励，但是，你知道，但是有一些自然的聚会，闲逛，在公园里疯狂玩耍，玩游戏之类的事情。

And I think that has stopped or slowed down a lot.

我认为这种情况已经停止或放缓了很多。

I see it with some people in my own community — I don't see as much just hanging out in the front yard and shooting the breeze and instead they're inside, and they're on their phones and stuff like that.

我在自己社区的一些人身上也看到过这种情况——我看不到那么多人只是在前院闲逛、吹吹风，相反，他们在里面，用手机之类的东西。

So could that be part of why we're seeing more e-cigarette use?

那么这可能是我们看到更多电子烟使用的部分原因吗？

Possibly.

可能吧。

I just don't have, I haven't seen the studies on it.

我只是没有，我还没有看到这方面的研究。

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, perhaps that's a good segue into risky behaviors.

Andrew Huberman：是的，也许这是对危险行为的一个很好的延续。

When I was a kid, I mean, the dumb stuff that we did, meaning dumb because it was dangerous to ourselves.

当我还是个孩子的时候，我的意思是，我们所做的愚蠢的事情，意味着愚蠢，因为这对我们自己来说是危险的。

I mean, I am not suggesting people do this.

我的意思是，我并不是建议人们这样做。

Kids, please don't do this.

孩子们，请不要这样做。

Just don't.

只是不要。

But just the dumb stuff of, you know, jumping off roofs or between roofs.

但只是愚蠢的事情，你知道，从屋顶或屋顶之间跳下来。

I'm not going to give any other, any anecdotes.

我不会提供任何其他的轶事。

It's amazing that we all survived, and some didn't.

令人惊奇的是我们都活了下来，而有些人却没有。

But that was largely the consequence of drugs, alcohol, mental health issues of kids I knew.

但这很大程度上是由毒品、酒精和我认识的孩子的心理健康问题造成的。

But car accidents, actually, I grew up in the Mothers Against Drunk Driving era, and there was real discouragement around drunk driving.

但车祸，实际上，我是在“母亲反对酒后驾车”时代长大的，酒后驾车确实令人沮丧。

I was fortunate that, at least in high school, most of my friends didn't drink or didn't drink much.

我很幸运，至少在高中时，我的大多数朋友都不喝酒，或者喝得不多。

But you still heard about fatalities in kids happened.

但你仍然听说过儿童死亡事件。

Even one is too many, obviously.

显然，即使是一个也太多了。

What's going on now in terms of risk-taking behavior, driving fast, driving drunk, doing what used to be just described as dumb stuff that unfortunately sometimes is fatal or results in paralysis, people jumping off bridges into water without testing the water depth.

现在正在发生的事情是冒险行为，快速驾驶，醉酒驾驶，做过去被描述为愚蠢的事情，不幸的是有时会致命或导致瘫痪，人们在没有测试水深的情况下从桥上跳入水中。

We've all heard the stories, and sadly, there're true stories of people becoming paralyzed, that kind of thing.

我们都听过这些故事，可悲的是，有一些真实的故事，人们变得瘫痪，诸如此类的事情。

Dumb stuff, dangerous stuff.

愚蠢的东西，危险的东西。

Teens do more of it.

青少年做得更多。

Is it still true that males are doing more of that physical danger stuff than females, or is that not true?

男性比女性做更多对身体有害的事情，这仍然是真的吗？或者这不是真的？

That's what we used to hear.

这就是我们过去常听到的。

But then, of course, there's been this big push, importantly, really, to balance out the amount of research on both sexes.

但是，当然，重要的是，确实有这么大的推动力来平衡两性的研究量。

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: Yeah, it's a good point.

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher：是的，这是一个很好的观点。

I mean, some of it has to do with just the methods of our research to know.

我的意思是，其中一些与我们的研究方法有关。

You know, it's interesting, I haven't seen more recent data in terms of differences by sex of risk engagement and risk behavior.

你知道，这很有趣，我还没有看到关于风险参与和风险行为的性别差异的最新数据。

I mean, a lot of what I've seen is balanced out.

我的意思是，我所看到的很多东西都是平衡的。

I think it's maybe different kinds of risk behaviors that people do, but we're still seeing it.

我认为这可能是人们所做的不同类型的风险行为，但我们仍然看到它。

We're still seeing teens drinking, we're still seeing teens going to parties and getting drunk.

我们仍然看到青少年喝酒，我们仍然看到青少年去参加聚会喝醉。

We're still seeing teens out on the beach and getting drunk.

我们仍然看到青少年在海滩上喝醉。

I think the big difference now is whether it's from Mothers Against, now I think it's Destructive Driving.

我认为现在最大的区别是它是否来自“母亲反对”，现在我认为它是“破坏性驾驶”。

Andrew Huberman: Is that what it's called?

安德鲁·休伯曼：是这个名字吗？

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: I think it's now Mothers Against, it's--

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher：我认为现在是“母亲反对”，它是——

Andrew Huberman: Destructive Driving.

安德鲁·休伯曼：破坏性驾驶。

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: I think that's--

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher：我认为那是——

Andrew Huberman: That includes drunk driving and racing.

Andrew Huberman：这包括醉酒驾驶和赛车。

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: And racing and driving under the influence of cannabis, or anything else which can be harmful.

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher：在大麻或其他可能有害的东西的影响下赛车和驾驶。

But at least in a lot of the teens and young adults I've talked to, at least we've gotten that word out to teens.

但至少在我交谈过的许多青少年和年轻人中，至少我们已经向青少年传达了这个信息。

So they're still drinking, and they're still doing stupid stuff when they drink, but they're not getting behind the wheel as much; much less.

所以他们仍然在喝酒，他们仍然在喝酒时做愚蠢的事情，但他们不再那么频繁地开车；少得多。

And this idea of a designated driver or sober driver--

指定司机或清醒司机的想法——

Andrew Huberman: Uber

安德鲁·休伯曼：优步

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: or Uber.

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher：或优步。

Uber's--

优步的——

Andrew Huberman: Or Lyft, I guess we should--

Andrew Huberman：或者 Lyft，我想我们应该——

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: Or Lyft.

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher：或者 Lyft。

Or any rideshare, let's just say any rideshare has certainly been a game changer in the landscape of teenagers and young adults right now.

或者任何乘车共享，我们只能说任何乘车共享无疑已经改变了目前青少年和年轻人的格局。

And, in fact, I've heard not just a designated driver, but a designated partner or a sober, a sober sitter.

事实上，我听到的不仅仅是指定的司机，还有指定的合作伙伴或清醒的、清醒的保姆。

So this idea that you go to a party and there may be drinking going on, but you make sure that there's one person who's sober, not just for driving, but to make sure you're not going home with somebody you don't want to go home with, to make sure that you're not leaving drunk and falling downstairs, to make sure that you're not falling out of that window.

因此，你去参加一个聚会，可能会喝酒，但你要确保有一个人是清醒的，不仅仅是为了开车，而是为了确保你不会和你不想回家的人一起回家，确保你不会喝醉离开并从楼上摔下来，确保你不会从窗户掉下来。

So that message we've gotten across really well, which I'm thrilled about.

所以我们很好地传达了这一信息，对此我感到很兴奋。

Are we still seeing drunk driving in accidents?

我们现在还看到酒后驾车发生事故吗？

I certainly have among some people I know, certainly we are, but I think that the message overall has gotten out there.

当然，我认识的一些人中也有这样的人，当然我们也是这样，但我认为总体信息已经传达出去了。

Some people I've talked to said we just, just don't get behind the wheel, period.

我采访过的一些人说我们只是，只是不要开车，就这样。

What's also interesting is more and more teens are not driving.

同样有趣的是，越来越多的青少年不再开车。

They're delaying driving more and more.

他们越来越推迟开车。

Whether that's because of Uber, Lyft, I mean, it's as apparent it's less expensive to pay for a rideshare than to pay for insurance for somebody under 25, or to pay for a car, So certainly that might be it.

无论是因为 Uber、Lyft，我的意思是，很明显，为 25 岁以下的人支付拼车费用比为 25 岁以下的人支付保险费用或购买汽车费用要便宜，所以当然可能就是这样。

But that is there doing other stupid stuff, I mean, in addition to drugs, jumping, skateboarding, certainly we're still seeing that.

但还有其他愚蠢的事情，我的意思是，除了毒品、跳跃、滑板之外，我们当然仍然看到这种情况。

Andrew Huberman: Well, skateboarding is a good sport.

Andrew Huberman：嗯，滑板是一项很好的运动。

You gotta...

你必须...

don't exceed your skill level.

不要超出您的技能水平。

But jumping between buildings, not smart unless you're super skilled and know what you're doing.

但是在建筑物之间跳跃并不聪明，除非你技术精湛并且知道自己在做什么。

I mean, you know, there are the parkour kids and the skateboard kids and the BMX, because we don't want to take away what the incredible things they can do.

我的意思是，你知道，有跑酷的孩子、滑板的孩子和小轮车，因为我们不想剥夺他们可以做的令人难以置信的事情。

But, but there's risk there.

但是，但是那里有风险。

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: Right.

邦妮·哈尔彭-费尔舍：是的。

Andrew Huberman: Right.

安德鲁·休伯曼：对。

I was referring to people who lack the skill to complete the, to complete the maneuver.

我指的是那些缺乏完成动作技能的人。

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: Right.

邦妮·哈尔彭-费尔舍：是的。

Andrew Huberman: And getting badly hurt, or in some cases, not getting badly hurt, but you just kind of shake your head and wonder why you, why you ever engaged in that kind of stuff.

安德鲁·胡伯曼：受到严重伤害，或者在某些情况下，没有受到严重伤害，但你只是摇摇头，想知道为什么你，为什么你会从事这种事情。

Just so risky.

就是这么冒险。

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: Yeah.

邦妮·哈尔彭-费尔舍：是的。

Yeah.

是的。

We're definitely still seeing risk behavior amongst teenagers, and part of it has to do with impulsivity.

我们肯定仍然在青少年中看到危险行为，其中部分原因与冲动有关。

We know that teens, up until around...

我们知道青少年，直到...

part of the development, right, of cognitive and social, psychosocial and social development is up until around 16, 17, they're still very impulsive.

认知和社会、心理和社会发展的一部分，直到16、17岁左右，他们仍然非常冲动。

We know, with the brain development, right, the back of the brain develops faster and first, and that's our amygdala, our emotional center, our motor coordination, versus the front of the brain, which is our executive functioning, our planning for the future, our really slowing down and being able to think of the risks and benefits and make those decisions a little slower and a little bit better, more like we would as adults.

我们知道，随着大脑的发育，大脑后部首先发育得更快，那是我们的杏仁核，我们的情感中心，我们的运动协调能力，而大脑前部则负责我们的执行功能，我们对未来的规划，我们真正放慢速度，能够思考风险和收益，并让这些决定慢一点，更好一点，就像我们作为成年人一样。

So we certainly see impulsive decision.

所以我们当然会看到冲动的决定。

You know, hey, let's go teepee that house, or let's go ride on that car, or let's go do things that probably, hopefully wouldn't get them killed or injured, but may get them busted in other ways.

你知道，嘿，让我们去那个房子里的帐篷里，或者让我们去骑那辆车，或者让我们去做一些可能不会让他们死或伤的事情，但可能会让他们以其他方式被抓。

We're still seeing that.

我们仍然看到这一点。

I think there have been more programs to help teens sort of rehearse in situations.

我认为已经有更多的项目可以帮助青少年在各种情况下进行排练。

So they're not, they're more life skills training, so they're not making some of those impulsive decisions, but teens will.

所以他们不是，他们更多的是生活技能训练，所以他们不会做出一些冲动的决定，但青少年会。

Teens are going to be teens, which, by the way, is why we don't put things in front of them like, you know, sugar booger and unicorn kind of marketing that's going to get teens attracted because that is buying into that knee jerk, impulsive, it looks cool, everyone's-doing-it kind of thing that they...

青少年终归是青少年，顺便说一句，这就是为什么我们不会把一些东西放在他们面前，比如，你知道的，糖鼻屎和独角兽之类的营销方式，这些营销方式会吸引青少年，因为这是下意识的、冲动的，看起来很酷，每个人都在做这样的事情，他们……

can resist.

可以抵抗。

I don't mean that they can't, but just buys right into teens are going to be teens, and that's what they're going to do.

我并不是说他们不能，但只是购买青少年将要成为的青少年，这就是他们要做的。

Andrew Huberman: What about sexual behavior?

安德鲁·休伯曼：性行为呢？

You mentioned that kids are driving less or getting their driver's license less frequently, which, by the way, with respect to teens wanting to drive less, that just, like, baffles my mind.

你提到孩子们开车的次数越来越少，或者拿到驾照的频率越来越低，顺便说一句，对于想要少开车的青少年来说，这让我感到困惑。

I mean, one of the reasons I like skateboarding as a sport is you could do it anywhere.

我的意思是，我喜欢滑板运动的原因之一是你可以在任何地方进行滑板运动。

It was also transportation, and I liked the social milieu, I loved the social milieu of it.

这也是交通，我喜欢它的社交环境，我喜欢它的社交环境。

But getting my driver's license was one of the most important events of my life.

但获得驾照是我一生中最重要的事件之一。

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: Me, too.

邦妮·哈尔彭-费尔舍：我也是。

Me too.

我也是。

Andrew Huberman: I could drive to Yosemite in the summer.

Andrew Huberman：夏天我可以开车去优胜美地。

I could do all sorts of things with that.

我可以用它做各种各样的事情。

I'm so surprised that kids wouldn't want to do that.

我很惊讶孩子们不愿意这样做。

Such autonomy there.

那里有这样的自治权。

So much fun.

太有趣了。

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: Oh, I agree.

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher：哦，我同意。

Andrew Huberman: But I've also heard that rates of, of sexual behavior going down.

安德鲁·休伯曼：但我也听说性行为的发生率正在下降。

Is that true?

这是真的吗？

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: Yeah, stabilizing and going down.

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher：是的，正在稳定并下降。

And certainly rates of risky sexual behavior has also gone down.

当然，危险性行为的发生率也有所下降。

So we are getting the message across around condom use, around STI testing, around birth control, things like that, which is also really good.

因此，我们正在传达有关安全套使用、性传播感染检测、节育等方面的信息，这也非常好。

But rates overall have gone down.

但总体利率有所下降。

Andrew Huberman: Is teen pregnancy down?

安德鲁·休伯曼：青少​​年怀孕率下降了吗？

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: I think it's down, actually.

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher：实际上，我认为它已经下降了。

I haven't looked at the latest numbers.

我还没看最新的数字。

I think it's down.

我认为它已经下降了。

Certainly I don't think has gone up, but I actually would need to look back at those numbers, it's been a little while since I've looked at them.

当然，我认为没有上升，但实际上我需要回顾这些数字，自从我查看它们以来已经有一段时间了。

Andrew Huberman: And is what we're talking about today mostly within the United States and the United States alone, or does it carry over to other countries as well?

安德鲁·休伯曼：我们今天谈论的内容主要是在美国境内，并且仅限于美国，还是也适用于其他国家？

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: So it totally depends on the behavior that we're talking about.

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher：所以这完全取决于我们正在谈论的行为。

Andrew Huberman: Let's say vaping or e-cig, use of cannabis or nicotine.

Andrew Huberman：比如说电子烟或电子烟，使用大麻或尼古丁。

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: So interestingly, e-cigarette, nicotine e-cigarette use has not been as high in a lot of other countries, it depends on the country.

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher：有趣的是，电子烟、尼古丁电子烟的使用在许多其他国家并没有那么高，这取决于国家。

But, for example, the U.K. or Europe, we haven't seen the rates as high in the last few years, part of it was that a lot of other states have a nicotine standard.

但是，例如，在英国或欧洲，我们在过去几年中没有看到如此高的比率，部分原因是许多其他国家都有尼古丁标准。

So that means a minimum amount, or maximum amount, excuse me, of nicotine that you're allowed to have.

所以这意味着你可以摄入的尼古丁的最小量或最大量，对不起。

So, for example, the U.K., I think it's around 1.7%.

以英国为例，我认为该比例约为 1.7%。

In the U.S., we have no nicotine standard, which is another major issue with regulation.

在美国，我们没有尼古丁标准，这是监管的另一个主要问题。

We don't have — we have, as I was saying, 5%, 10% nicotine levels.

正如我所说，我们没有——我们有 5%、10% 的尼古丁含量。

There is no regulation about how much nicotine that you could have.

没有关于您可以摄入多少尼古丁的规定。

So in certain countries, if it's right around the addictive level or a little bit below it, we're going to see fewer teens becoming addicted.

因此，在某些国家，如果它恰好在成瘾水平附近或略低于成瘾水平，我们就会看到更少的青少年上瘾。

It's still bad at any amount, but we're going to see fewer people becoming addicted.

无论如何，它仍然很糟糕，但我们会看到越来越少的人上瘾。

The other is, the marketing was not as big in other countries, and really was, the marketing was in e-cigarettes.

另一个是，在其他国家的营销规模并不大，而且确实如此，营销是在电子烟方面。

If you're trying to stop smoking cigarettes not marketed to teens, that has changed in the last year or two.

如果您想戒掉并非针对青少年的香烟，那么这种情况在过去一两年已经发生了变化。

So in countries I've talked to, for example, the U.K., I've been interviewed by them many times in the last few years, and they would say, we don't have the same problem.

所以在我接触过的国家，比如英国，过去几年我多次接受过他们的采访，他们会说，我们没有同样的问题。

And now they're saying, boy, we are seeing a pretty significant increase in the number of teens who are using.

现在他们说，天哪，我们看到使用该设备的青少年数量显着增加。

Part of it is a different landscape of the kind of e-cigarette that's out there, the kind of marketing that's out there, whatever it is we are now seeing, is it as high as we have in the U.S.?

部分原因是电子烟的情况不同，营销方式也不同，无论我们现在看到什么，它的销量是否与美国一样高？

I don't think so, but it's certainly increasing.

我不这么认为，但它确实在增加。

Same thing in other countries, where they actually didn't allow certain e-cigarettes to be on the market, have now come in and been on the market and infiltrated.

在其他国家也是如此，他们实际上不允许某些电子烟进入市场，但现在已经进入市场并渗透进来。

And even in this country, certain e-cigarettes are illegal and they're coming in illegally through illicit trading is happening and crossing the borders.

即使在这个国家，某些电子烟也是非法的，它们是通过非法贸易非法进入并跨境的。

So e-cigarette, we're still seeing cannabis, depends on the country, right?

所以电子烟，我们仍然看到大麻，这取决于国家，对吧？

Whether it's legal or not.

不管合法与否。

Now, even in the U.S., I should say even states that have legalized cannabis, you have to be 21, but we're still seeing underaged cannabis use, of course, just like we're seeing underage drinking and underage nicotine use.

现在，即使在美国，我应该说，即使是大麻合法化的州，你也必须年满 21 岁，但我们仍然看到未成年人使用大麻，当然，就像我们看到未成年人饮酒和未成年人使用尼古丁一样。

In other states, where it's just really difficult to get, we're not seeing cannabis as much, but we still are seeing it.

在其他很难获得大麻的州，我们看到的大麻并不多，但我们仍然看到它。

Andrew Huberman: We didn't talk about things like Zyn pouches, which are becoming more popular with adults as well.

Andrew Huberman：我们没有谈论 Zyn 袋之类的东西，它们也越来越受到成年人的欢迎。

So no vaping, no e-cig, no smoking nicotine, but a little pouch, which is different than dipping tobacco or snuffing tobacco.

因此，没有电子烟，没有电子烟，没有尼古丁，只有一个小烟袋，这与蘸烟或吸烟不同。

As far as I know, Zyn pouches and things similar deliver nicotine into the bloodstream, which then crosses the blood-brain barrier, goes into the brain, has this effect of creating focus and alertness, kind of little high, but doesn't carry the same carcinogenic risk.

据我所知，Zyn袋和类似的东西将尼古丁输送到血液中，然后穿过血脑屏障，进入大脑，具有提高注意力和警觉性的效果，有点高，但不具有相同的致癌风险。

But presumably there are other risks, which include, of course, the addictive and habit-forming nature of it, the blood pressure increase, the vasoconstriction, which is related to the blood pressure, et cetera.

但想必还有其他风险，其中当然包括它的成瘾性和成瘾性、血压升高、与血压有关的血管收缩等等。

But what do we know about Zyn pouch use?

但我们对 Zyn 袋的使用了解多少？

Is it on the rise?

是在上升吗？

Or is it that there's something so compelling about vaping and e-cigs that people, in particular kids, want the physical act of vaping?

或者是电子烟和电子烟有如此引人注目的东西，以至于人们，特别是孩子，想要电子烟的身体行为？

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: So this is a case where I've seen this one other time where actually the popular press is ahead of the scientific press and probably ahead of the science and teaching us scientists that we better hurry up and figure this out.

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher：所以这是我另一次看到的情况，实际上大众媒体领先于科学媒体，甚至可能领先于科学，并教导我们科学家，我们最好快点弄清楚这个问题。

Andrew Huberman: How is it?

安德鲁·休伯曼：怎么样？

How is that?

怎么样？

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: So, the popular press has been talking about Zyn a lot and arguing that it's a very popular product and that we're seeing now, this is true, we're seeing a very sharp increase in the market share of Zyn compared to other nicotine products, so we're seeing it on the rise.

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher：所以，大众媒体一直在谈论 Zyn，并认为它是一种非常受欢迎的产品，我们现在看到，这是事实，与其他尼古丁产品相比，我们看到 Zyn 的市场份额急剧增加，所以我们看到它正在上升。

What I mean by "science hasn't caught up" is we don't have a lot of surveillance data to show whether or not teens are actually using Zyn.

我所说的“科学还没有跟上”的意思是，我们没有大量的监控数据来显示青少年是否真的在使用 Zyn。

We have some data.

我们有一些数据。

We actually published a study a couple years ago showing around 20% to 25% of people, in general, adolescents and adults, and about 11 to 15% of teens are using a pouch, presumably Zyn.

事实上，我们几年前发表了一项研究，显示大约 20% 到 25% 的人（一般来说，青少年和成年人），以及大约 11% 到 15% 的青少年正在使用造口袋，大概是 Zyn。

We didn't ask.

我们没有问。

We now are looking at our data around Zyn use, but we don't have wide-scale studies.

我们现在正在查看有关 Zyn 使用的数据，但我们还没有进行大规模的研究。

We do have studies of pouches more generally, like the CDC showed that about, I think it was a couple of percent, one and a half percent.

我们确实对造口袋进行了更广泛的研究，就像疾病预防控制中心表明的那样，我认为大约是百分之几、百分之半。

And that it went up a little bit.

而且它上升了一点。

So I think I can't, it was something like, I think it went from 1.1% to about 1.5% of teens seem to be admitting using pouches.

所以我想我不能，我认为承认使用育儿袋的青少年似乎从 1.1% 上升到了 1.5% 左右。

So not a huge increase, but a few hundred thousand teens are using across the country, as opposed to two and a half million-plus using e-cigarettes.

因此，增幅并不是很大，但全国有几十万青少年在使用电子烟，而有超过二百五十万青少年在使用电子烟。

But with all those qualifications aside, yes, we are seeing an increase in Zyn use amongst teenagers.

但抛开所有这些条件不谈，是的，我们看到青少年中 Zyn 的使用有所增加。

What's most concerning is that it seems like it's teenagers who are not using it in addition to e-cigarettes, but new initiates.

最令人担忧的是，除了电子烟之外，似乎使用电子烟的并不是青少年，而是新手。

So they're now just...

所以他们现在只是...

like I'm concerned about teens initiating tobacco or nicotine through e-cigarettes.

就像我担心青少年通过电子烟开始吸烟或尼古丁一样。

Now, it seems like some are initiating through Zyn.

现在，似乎有些人是通过 Zyn 发起的。

Andrew Huberman: So Zyn is kind of the gateway.

Andrew Huberman：Zyn 是一种网关。

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: It may be an on-ramp to using.

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher：这可能是一个使用的入口。

And the idea is that they're putting it in between their lip and their gum, and, and then each pouch of Zyn is 3 or 6 mg, it comes in a 3 mg pouch or a 6 mg pouch.

他们的想法是把它放在嘴唇和牙龈之间，然后每袋 Zyn 为 3 或 6 毫克，分为 3 毫克袋或 6 毫克袋。

Now, it is nicotine that, yes, it's originally derived from tobacco, but there's no tobacco in the pouch itself.

现在，它是尼古丁，是的，它最初是从烟草中提取的，但烟袋本身并没有烟草。

It's a white powdered nicotine.

这是一种白色尼古丁粉。

And I don't know what else is in there, we are really lacking the research there, but my concern is, we've seen this with smokeless tobacco for years, is oral cancer, and you're putting this in the mouth and at the mucosal line, and are we going to start being concerned about oral cancer, which we've already been concerned about with other pouches?

我不知道里面还有什么，我们确实缺乏这方面的研究，但我担心的是，多年来我们在无烟烟草中看到了这种情况，这是口腔癌，你把它放在嘴里和粘膜线上，我们是否会开始担心口腔癌，我们已经担心其他袋子的问题了？

Andrew Huberman: How would you get oral cancer if there's no tobacco and it's just nicotine?

Andrew Huberman：如果没有烟草而只有尼古丁，你怎么会患上口腔癌呢？

Does nicotine?

有尼古丁吗？

I was under the impression, and please tell me if I'm wrong, that nicotine itself doesn't cause cancer.

我的印象是，尼古丁本身不会致癌，如果我错了，请告诉我。

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: The question is, what else is in there?

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher：问题是，里面还有什么？

Is it just nicotine, or is there aldehydes and other chemicals that are cut with it?

仅仅是尼古丁，还是有醛类和其他化学物质与之一起被分解？

So that's why I'm saying we don't know enough about it.

所以这就是为什么我说我们对此了解不够。

My big concern is exactly what you're saying, are we going to start seeing teens using nicotine and then nicotine pouches and moving on?

我最关心的是你所说的，我们是否会开始看到青少年使用尼古丁，然后使用尼古丁袋并继续前进？

But the brain piece, it doesn't matter what else is in there, we are still concerned about the brain development.

但是大脑这块，不管里面有什么，我们仍然关心大脑的发育。

And if you're using a 3 mg or a 6 mg pouch, and we know that a lot of teens are using multiple pouches, our study showed this as well, multiple pouches throughout the day, and actually, some social media is showing teens putting in several pouches at the same time, then you might be getting, again, as much as a pack of cigarettes of nicotine, and that's very concerning.

如果您使用的是 3 毫克或 6 毫克的小袋，而且我们知道很多青少年正在使用多个小袋，我们的研究也表明了这一点，全天使用多个小袋，实际上，一些社交媒体显示青少年同时放入多个小袋，那么您可能会再次摄入与一包香烟一样多的尼古丁，这是非常令人担忧的。

So the whole piece we talked about before about brain development, and are we stunting or changing or really rewiring the brain with nicotine?

那么我们之前讨论的整篇文章都是关于大脑发育的，我们是在阻碍、改变还是真的用尼古丁重新连接大脑？

Doesn't matter what form it's in, it is not good, and it's not good for teenagers.

不管它以什么形式出现，都是不好的，对青少年来说也不好。

Andrew Huberman: Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。

I get asked a lot of questions about Zyn pouches and other nicotine pouches, and one of the more common questions is related to the fact that a lot of people start with one or two pouches a day, quickly move to four to five, and the typical ceiling for most people that at least ask me questions about it is moving to, quickly, a canister a day.

我被问到很多关于 Zyn 袋和其他尼古丁袋的问题，其中一个更常见的问题与这样一个事实有关：很多人从每天一两袋开始，很快就增加到四到五袋，而对于大多数至少问我有关它的问题的人来说，典型的上限是很快地每天一罐。

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: Yeah.

邦妮·哈尔彭-费尔舍：是的。

Andrew Huberman: Which is a lot of pouches.

Andrew Huberman：有很多袋子。

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: I think it's 15 to 20 pouches per can.

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher：我认为每罐有 15 到 20 袋。

Andrew Huberman: Okay, is that 3 to 6 mg?

Andrew Huberman：好的，是 3 到 6 毫克吗？

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: Right.

邦妮·哈尔彭-费尔舍：是的。

Andrew Huberman: You can do the math.

安德鲁·休伯曼：你可以算一下。

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: Do the math.

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher：算一下。

What's that, 60 to upwards of 60 mg?

那是什么，60 到 60 毫克以上？

That's.

就是这样。

That's.

就是这样。

Andrew Huberman: And I'm thinking back to--

安德鲁·休伯曼：我正在回想——

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: Three packs of cigarettes.

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher：三包香烟。

Andrew Huberman: Oh, you got your step ahead of me.

Andrew Huberman：噢，你比我先一步了。

Two steps ahead of me.

比我领先两步。

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: Yeah.

邦妮·哈尔彭-费尔舍：是的。

Let's play it safe.

让我们安全一点吧。

Two.

二。

I'll give you, you know--

我会给你，你知道——

Andrew Huberman: Two packs of cigarettes per day.

安德鲁·休伯曼：每天两包烟。

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: At least two packs of cigarettes worth of nicotine.

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher：至少含有两包香烟的尼古丁。

And it's interesting, in the old days, when we didn't have e-cigarettes, and we were talking about cigarettes, and we were talking about adults, we would talk pack-cigarette years, right?

有趣的是，在过去，当我们没有电子烟的时候，我们谈论香烟，我们谈论成年人，我们会谈论香烟时代，对吗？

How many packs of cigarettes and for how many years?

多少包香烟，吸了多少年？

And that language kind of reduced for a while because adults and people weren't using cigarettes as much, and so we weren't worrying about this concept of packs.

这种语言暂时减少了，因为成年人和人们不再那么频繁地使用香烟，所以我们并不担心这种包装的概念。

I'm worried about it again.

我又开始担心了

We're getting so much nicotine now.

我们现在摄入了太多的尼古丁。

Now, yes, not in the form of combusted, not in the form of burning, maybe it's in the form of e-cigarettes or pouches, but it's still a huge amount of nicotine that we're seeing that young, very young brains are using.

现在，是的，不是以燃烧的形式，不是以燃烧的形式，也许是以电子烟或烟袋的形式，但我们看到年轻的、非常年轻的大脑仍然在使用大量的尼古丁。

Andrew Huberman: Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。

Can't be good, in my opinion.

在我看来，不可能是好事。

I spent years studying brain development, still teach brain development every year.

我花了多年时间研究大脑发育，每年仍然教授大脑发育。

Can't be good.

不可能好。

The brain doesn't do well developing with high, artificially high levels of any neuromodulator.

如果神经调节剂的浓度过高、人为地过高，大脑就无法正常发育。

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: And then you go back to the eight-year-olds  we were talking about earlier, and we have no studies, right?

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher：然后你回到我们之前讨论过的八岁孩子，我们没有研究，对吧？

On what does a drug like nicotine do to, not a teen brain, but a child brain?

像尼古丁这样的药物对儿童大脑而不是青少年大脑有什么作用？

And clearly is not good.

而且显然不好。

But what exactly is happening?

但究竟发生了什么？

We don't have those studies, but it's incredibly scary to think about what's happening with young people and getting addicted so young and then continuing that addiction of a lifetime of addiction that they might have.

我们没有这些研究，但是想想年轻人身上发生的事情，这么年轻就上瘾，然后继续他们可能有的终生上瘾，这是非常可怕的。

Andrew Huberman: Seems like it would be appropriate now to take a step back.

Andrew Huberman：看来现在退后一步是合适的。

I think everyone agrees that these are major problems that are in our youth and just evaluate messaging and tools to overcome these issues, right?

我想每个人都同意这些是我们年轻人面临的主要问题，并且只是评估克服这些问题的信息和工具，对吧？

So, obviously, if you never try a substance or a behavior, you can't get addicted to it.

所以，显然，如果你从未尝试过某种物质或行为，你就不会对其上瘾。

But given the prevalence of this stuff, what sorts of messaging work?

但考虑到这种东西的普遍存在，什么样的消息传递有效呢？

Earlier, we talked about accessing the rebellious spirit that is youth as a way to get youth to engage in healthier behaviors and abandon unhealthy behaviors.

早些时候，我们谈到了利用年轻人的叛逆精神，作为让年轻人从事更健康的行为并放弃不健康的行为的一种方式。

But there's quitting, there's just say no, and then there's harm reduction.

但只要戒烟，只要说“不”，然后就能减少伤害。

There's convincing people that some substance is bad for them and scaring them to the point where they quit.

他们让人们相信某些物质对他们有害，并吓唬他们以致他们戒掉。

There's incentivizing them to be healthy.

这会激励他们保持健康。

There's replacement behaviors.

存在替代行为。

There's just so much in that landscape.

那片风景里有太多东西了。

I know you just held a conference on cannabis and tobacco recently.

我知道你们最近刚刚召开了一次关于大麻和烟草的会议。

I'm sorry I wasn't able to attend.

很遗憾我没能参加。

Sounds super interesting.

听起来超级有趣。

But whether or not we're talking about social media or cannabis or risky-driving behavior or reckless behavior of any kind, what works?

但无论我们是否在谈论社交媒体、大麻、危险驾驶行为或任何类型的鲁莽行为，什么有效？

And when I say this, I don't necessarily just mean at the level of public health discourse, but also parent to child, peer to peer, sibling to sibling, what works?

当我这么说时，我不一定只是指公共卫生话语层面，还包括父母对孩子、同伴对同伴、兄弟姐妹对兄弟姐妹，什么有效？

I mean, how should one approach a kid, or an adult for that matter, who's vaping cannabis or is vaping nicotine?

我的意思是，一个人应该如何对待正在吸大麻或吸尼古丁的孩子或成年人？

And it's just clearly going to be a bad trajectory.

这显然将是一个糟糕的轨迹。

What can one do?

一个人能做什么呢？

I mean, we all also understand personal accountability, and neuroplasticity generally merges best when it comes from within as opposed to from the outside.

我的意思是，我们都了解个人责任，而神经可塑性通常在来自内部而非外部时融合得最好。

But what can we do?

但我们能做什么呢？

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: The most important is, and I've said this for years, have a conversation.

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher：最重要的是，我已经说过很多年了，进行对话。

And some people think that having a conversation about, name your risk behavior: drugs of any sort, alcohol, tobacco, other drugs.

有些人认为，讨论一下你的危险行为：任何种类的毒品、酒精、烟草、其他毒品。

Having a conversation about sex, having a conversation about risky driving gets young people curious.

谈论性、谈论危险驾驶会让年轻人感到好奇。

That is not at all the case.

事实并非如此。

There's nothing we can talk to a young person about that they don't already know.

我们不能与年轻人谈论他们不知道的事情。

We're kidding ourselves to say, oh, we can't mention drugs to a 16-year-old because we're going to get them curious; they've known about drugs since they were eight years old.

我们自欺欺人地说，哦，我们不能向 16 岁的孩子提及毒品，因为我们会让他们好奇；他们从八岁起就知道毒品了。

We're not.

我们不是。

And I often say to parents, start that conversation young, when your kids are really young, four or five, maybe the conversation is having a cookie or having some grapes or going to bed now, or going to bed in five minutes.

我经常对父母说，从小就开始谈话，当你的孩子还很小的时候，四五岁，也许谈话是吃一块饼干或吃一些葡萄或现在睡觉，或五分钟后睡觉。

I used to say that with my own kids, you want to go to bed now or in five minutes, so they felt like they were making the decision, I didn't really care which decision they were making, It was not a fight.

我曾经对我自己的孩子说过，你想现在或者五分钟后上床睡觉，所以他们觉得他们正在做出决定，我并不关心他们正在做出哪个决定，这不是一场战斗。

We need to start having conversations around decision-making and healthy decision-making and not have a confrontation, but a conversation very young.

我们需要开始围绕决策和健康决策进行对话，而不是进行对抗，而是进行非常年轻的对话。

Now, I'm not saying that we talk about drugs or sex when they're very young, although to be honest, I did, I talked about cigarettes and pubertal development with my kids when they were very young.

现在，我并不是说我们在他们很小的时候就谈论毒品或性，尽管说实话，我确实说过，当我的孩子们很小的时候，我就和他们谈论了香烟和青春期发育。

But just starting that conversation so that when you move into more sensitive topics, more difficult topics as a child ages and becomes an older child and into adolescence, it's not shocking that you're having those conversations, and this is whether you're a parent, an educator, or whatever, so just talking a conversation.

但只要开始这样的对话，这样当你随着孩子年龄的增长，成为一个大一点的孩子，进入青春期，进入更敏感的话题、更困难的话题时，你进行这些对话就不会感到震惊，无论你是父母、教育者还是其他什么，所以只是谈论对话。

And not scheduling it, by the way, not on Saturday at 3 o'clock we're going to sit down and talk about sex, or 3 o'clock we're going to talk about drugs, that does not work.

顺便说一下，不安排它，不是周六下午 3 点我们要坐下来谈论性，或者 3 点我们要谈论毒品，那是行不通的。

You need to, I would joke that was like the queen of organic conversation, I'd see something on TV, you know, oh, let's have a conversation about that, just making it a natural part.

你需要，我会开玩笑说，这就像有机对话的女王，我会在电视上看到一些东西，你知道，哦，让我们对此进行对话，只是让它成为一个自然的部分。

And you were asking about differences in cultures and countries, we don't normalize those conversations, Other countries do, and we need to be doing that.

你问的是文化和国家之间的差异，我们没有使这些对话正常化，其他国家却这样做，我们需要这样做。

Andrew Huberman: It sounds like we don't normalize them or formalize them.

Andrew Huberman：听起来我们没有将它们标准化或形式化。

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: Correct.

邦妮·哈尔彭-费尔舍：正确。

We don't.

我们不这样做。

So that's one thing.

所以这是一回事。

The other is we're kidding ourselves.

另一个是我们在自欺欺人。

If we just talk about the just say no, as we're saying before, of course we want no use.

如果我们只是谈论“拒绝”，正如我们之前所说，当然我们不想有任何用处。

Of course we want teens to wait.

当然，我们希望青少年等待。

I mean, I often say we hope and expect that most people, if not all, will grow up into a healthy sexual relationship, whatever that might look like, even a healthy alcohol relationship, a glass of wine or half a glass of wine at night with dinner.

我的意思是，我经常说我们希望并期望大多数人（如果不是全部的话）能够成长为健康的性关系，无论它是什么样子，甚至是健康的酒精关系，晚上晚餐时喝一杯酒或半杯酒。

Again, no safe use of a lot of the other drugs, including nicotine, certainly fentanyl — illicit fentanyl, I want to make clear, not all fentanyl, but illicit fentanyl.

再说一次，许多其他药物的安全使用，包括尼古丁，当然还有芬太尼——非法芬太尼，我想澄清一下，不是所有芬太尼，而是非法芬太尼。

But to just simply say no and don't do and it's bad for you, is setting up again that failure of your conversation.

但如果只是简单地说“不”而不做，这对你来说是不好的，这会再次导致你的谈话失败。

Because, okay, well, you're telling me it's bad, but I liked it, or my friend liked it and it's not so bad, so you've lost credibility.

因为，好吧，好吧，你告诉我它很糟糕，但我喜欢它，或者我的朋友喜欢它，而且它并没有那么糟糕，所以你失去了可信度。

The most important part of harm reduction is not to do it.

减少伤害最重要的部分就是不这样做。

Absolutely.

绝对地。

Of course.

当然。

Not to use, not to have risky sex, maybe not to have sex at all until you're older, not to use tobacco, not to use any drugs.

不吸烟，不进行危险的性行为，也许在年纪大之前根本不发生性行为，不吸烟，不使用任何药物。

But how do we do that with a young person who, you go into a classroom and 10%, 20% have already started using or having sex or whatever the conversation is, you shut them down.

但是我们该如何对待一个年轻人呢？你走进教室，10％、20％的人已经开始使用或发生性行为，或者无论谈话是什么，你就阻止他们。

Well, they don't understand me, so why should I listen to them?

好吧，他们不理解我，那我为什么要听他们的呢？

They're not talking to me.

他们不跟我说话。

And so that no-use conversation doesn't work.

因此，无用的对话是行不通的。

There's a continuum or a spectrum of use.

有一个连续体或一个使用范围。

Everything from no use to once in a while to regular use, all the way up to addicted use when we're talking about drugs.

从没有用到偶尔使用到经常使用，一直到我们谈论毒品时上瘾的使用。

So to go in and assume that nobody's ever used or nobody wants to use, you're setting yourself up for failure.

因此，如果你假设没有人曾经使用过或没有人想要使用，那么你就是在为自己的失败做好准备。

That's the expectation, that's the hope.

这就是期待，这就是希望。

But what we really also need to talk about is, best if you don't use, but if you do, if you are using, let's help you cut back or quit.

但我们真正还需要讨论的是，如果你不使用最好，但如果你使用，如果你正在使用，让我们帮助你减少或戒掉。

And if you are continuing to use, let's keep you safe.

如果您继续使用，我们会保证您的安全。

Let's make sure that you're not going to die.

让我们确保你不会死。

And what I'm talking about here is, you know when most parents, if their kids are going to go to a party, well, I shouldn't say most parents, but a conversation often is, hey, I hope you're not drinking, but if you are, pick up the phone and I will come get you.

我在这里所说的是，你知道，当大多数父母，如果他们的孩子要去参加聚会，好吧，我不应该说大多数父母，但谈话经常是，嘿，我希望你没有喝酒，但如果你喝酒了，拿起电话，我会来接你。

That's harm reduction.

这就是减少伤害。

And parents, Oh, I didn't think about that.

父母们，哦，我没想到这一点。

Well, that's putting safety first.

嗯，这就是安全第一。

That is a harm reduction message; or saying, you're pretty young to start having sex, but here's a condom just in case.

这是一个减少伤害的信息；或者说，你开始做爱还很年轻，但这里有一个安全套以防万一。

Why do we schools have condoms in?

为什么我们学校要配备安全套？

Because they know that as much as we say it's best to delay, teens are going to, that's harm reduction.

因为他们知道，尽管我们说最好推迟，青少年也会这么做，这样可以减少伤害。

Let's at least reduce risk of STIs, pregnancy and so on.

让我们至少减少性传播感染、怀孕等的风险。

Andrew Huberman: And what do the data say is the consequence of harm reduction versus the kind of like, like thick black line, don't go anywhere near this behavior.

安德鲁·休伯曼：数据表明，减少伤害的结果与类似粗黑线的行为相比，根本不接近这种行为。

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: All the research, or pretty much all the research that I've read and hopefully will contribute to, shows that those messages, the harm reduction messages or what I would say comprehensive, really the harm reduction, unfortunately, harm reduction has gotten a bad rap, partly because of cigarettes versus e-cigarettes and this reduction or harm continuum with tobacco.

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher：所有的研究，或者几乎所有我读过的、希望能有所贡献的研究，都表明这些信息，减少危害的信息，或者我想说的全面的信息，实际上是减少危害，不幸的是，减少危害受到了不好的评价，部分原因是卷烟与电子烟的对比，以及烟草的这种减少或危害的连续体。

So maybe we don't say harm reduction, we say comprehensive conversation, comprehensive education from no use all the way up to what do we do if you are using?

所以也许我们不说减少伤害，我们说全面的对话、全面的教育，从无用一直到如果你正在使用我们该怎么办？

And all the research is really saying that those messages are way more effective than not using at all than that.

所有的研究实际上都表明，这些信息比根本不使用要有效得多。

If we tell teens, don't use, and we see this a lot in sexual behavior, we say, do not have sex, period.

如果我们告诉青少年，不要使用，我们在性行为中经常看到这种情况，我们会说，不要发生性行为，就这样。

Sign a contract that you're not going to have sex, and then they're in a situation and we don't arm them with the understanding of how to negotiate, how to have a healthy relationship, how to have a conversation, what do they do If they're thinking that they might want to have sex?

签署一份你不会发生性行为的合同，然后他们就陷入了一种情况，我们没有让他们了解如何谈判，如何建立健康的关系，如何进行对话，如果他们认为自己可能想要发生性行为，他们会做什么？

What do they do in that situation?

在这种情况下他们会做什么？

We then find that we're having teens who then don't know how to protect themselves and either have sex that was unwanted or sex that was unprotected.

然后我们发现，有些青少年不知道如何保护自己，要么发生不受欢迎的性行为，要么发生未受保护的性行为。

And teens want to understand, they want the truth, they want the knowledge.

青少年想要理解，他们想要真相，他们想要知识。

I went to a school and asked whether, if I came and talked about cannabis, would they come?

我去了一所学校，问如果我来谈论大麻，他们会来吗？

And they said, absolutely, I want to understand it.

他们说，我绝对想理解它。

And there's this great quote that I recently learned that said, basically the concept is if you don't teach teens, they're going to seek out information.

我最近了解到有一句话说，基本上这个概念是，如果你不教青少年，他们就会寻找信息。

So the quote is, "having teens learn about sex from porn is like having them learn physics from a Transformer, from the Transformers, or having them learn how to drive from 'Fast and Furious'".

所以引用是，“让青少年从色情片中了解性就像让他们从变形金刚那里学习物理学，或者让他们从《速度与激情》中学习如何开车”。

We need to give teens the information because they're gonna find it.

我们需要向青少年提供信息，因为他们会找到这些信息。

Andrew Huberman: That's right.

安德鲁·休伯曼：没错。

They're being exposed to other information elsewhere anyway.

无论如何，他们都会在其他地方接触到其他信息。

So what you're talking about here is coming up with counterbalances.

所以你在这里谈论的是提出平衡。

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: Counterbalances, real science-based information.

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher：平衡，真正基于科学的信息。

That's not overblowing the risks, that's not scaring them, and then that helps them understand it.

这并不是夸大风险，也不是吓到他们，而是帮助他们理解风险。

Best to say no, but if you do, fentanyl, let's make sure you're not using alone.

最好说不，但如果你这样做，芬太尼，我们要确保你不是单独使用。

I mean, obviously I don't want somebody using a drug that hasn't been tested and they got off the internet, period.

我的意思是，显然我不希望有人使用未经测试并且从互联网上消失的药物，就这样。

Because I know kids who have died.

因为我认识死去的孩子。

Andrew Huberman: It's so scary.

安德鲁·休伯曼：太可怕了。

You know, we have close friends that, gosh, I would have never guessed that their kids were using drugs.

你知道，我们有亲密的朋友，天哪，我从来没有想到他们的孩子会吸毒。

And maybe they were using drugs at the frequency that was always typical of, of youth, I don't know.

也许他们使用毒品的频率一直是年轻人的典型特征，我不知道。

I don't know the situations well enough, but I would say about once every four, sadly, once every four to eight months, I hear about someone's kid or close relative that died of a fentanyl overdose.

我不太了解情况，但我想说大约每四个月一次，可悲的是，每四到八个月一次，我听说某人的孩子或近亲死于芬太尼过量。

It does seem to be kids maybe 30 and younger.

看起来确实是30岁以下的孩子。

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: Yeah, it was more in the 20s and 30s.

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher：是的，更多是在 20 世纪 20 年代和 30 年代。

It's now really getting into the teens and young adults.

现在它已经真正进入青少年和年轻人中。

You're absolutely right.

你是绝对正确的。

And some of the teens I know of and young adults who have died were not your drug users, you know, we talked about not stigmatizing.

我认识的一些死去的青少年和年轻人并不是你们的吸毒者，你知道，我们谈到了不要污名化。

And that's the other thing.

这是另一回事。

If we don't talk, then we're stigmatizing, we need to have those conversations.

如果我们不说话，那么我们就是在污名化，我们需要进行这些对话。

But a lot of those teens were not using, they needed a pill because they were in pain or they needed something and they were not told.

但很多青少年并没有使用药物，他们需要服用药物，因为他们感到疼痛，或者他们需要一些东西，但没有人告诉他们。

And this is, again, that harm reduction in that conversation.

这又是对话中减少伤害的内容。

They were not told, don't buy something off the internet.

他们没有被告知，不要从互联网上购买东西。

If you do, test it, and test it with a fentanyl strip, for example, and make sure that you're not using alone, because if you're using alone, we can't then give you a Narcan, we can't do something, I carry a Narcan with me all the time.

如果你这样做，测试一下，例如用芬太尼条测试它，并确保你不是单独使用，因为如果你单独使用，我们就不能给你纳洛酮，我们不能做任何事情，我一直带着纳洛酮。

Andrew Huberman: Do you really?

安德鲁·休伯曼：你真的吗？

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: I do.

邦妮·哈尔彭-费尔舍：我愿意。

I have it in my backpack all the time.

我一直把它放在背包里。

Andrew Huberman: For anyone that you might see that's having an overdose or--

Andrew Huberman：对于您可能看到的任何服用过量药物的人，或者——

Anyone who might see

任何可能看到的人

Kids in particular?

特别是孩子们？

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: Yeah.

邦妮·哈尔彭-费尔舍：是的。

Thankfully, it hasn't happened, but if it does, and you can't hurt somebody from using it, if that's not what's happening.

值得庆幸的是，这种情况还没有发生，但如果发生了，而且如果没有发生这种情况，你也不会因为使用它而伤害别人。

Andrew Huberman: So you should everyone carry a Narcan?

安德鲁·休伯曼：所以你应该每个人都携带麻醉品吗？

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: I think everybody should have Narcan.

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher：我认为每个人都应该使用纳洛酮。

I do.

我愿意。

I think every school should have Narcan, I think every library should have Narcan, I think every bar should have Narcan.

我认为每个学校都应该有纳洛酮，我认为每个图书馆都应该有纳洛酮，我认为每个酒吧都应该有纳洛酮。

I absolutely believe it.

我绝对相信。

Now, test strips is an interesting debate that I've had.

现在，试纸是我进行过的一场有趣的辩论。

So I totally believe in this concept of comprehensive, if you don't want to say comprehensive drug education, comprehensive sex education.

所以我完全相信这种全面的概念，如果你不想说全面的毒品教育、全面的性教育。

And what I mean by that is both the spectrum of use or behavior as well as all kinds of drug, sex, rock and roll that we talk about the whole thing.

我的意思是，我们谈论的整个事情既包括使用范围或行为，也包括各种毒品、性、摇滚乐。

But fentanyl test strips has been an interesting dilemma within myself, and I'll explain why.

但芬太尼试纸一直是我内心的一个有趣的困境，我将解释原因。

I've been working with some groups to try to test whether we could study whether if we put both Narcan and fentanyl test strips in schools, would teens get them?

我一直在与一些团体合作，试图测试我们是否可以研究如果我们将纳洛酮和芬太尼试纸放入学校，青少年会得到它们吗？

So you're...

所以你是...

my fantasy: bowl of condoms, bowl of Narcan, bowl of fentanyl test strips, and you have it out for teens.

我的幻想：一碗避孕套，一碗纳洛酮，一碗芬太尼试纸，然后你就可以为青少年准备了。

Andrew Huberman: Wow, that's a bold statement.

Andrew Huberman：哇，这是一个大胆的声明。

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: It is a very bold statement.

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher：这是一个非常大胆的声明。

Andrew Huberman: What about the argument that I imagine some people counter with?

安德鲁·休伯曼：我认为有些人反对的论点怎么样？

I'm not necessarily saying this is my argument, but just imagining that some people will hear that and say having those things visible, freely available, will create more of an incentive for risk taking.

我不一定说这是我的论点，但只是想象有些人会听到这一点，并说让这些东西可见、免费提供，将更多地激励人们冒险。

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: So I've grappled with that, and with condoms, we know that that's not the case.

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher：所以我一直在努力解决这个问题，对于安全套，我们知道情况并非如此。

It's not going to create teens starting to have sex.

它不会让青少年开始发生性行为。

Just going back to what we were saying a few minutes ago, you're not going to incentivize or create people engaging in any risk behavior by having the conversation, but my grappling with the Narcan and with the fentanyl test strips has been there.

回到我们几分钟前所说的，你不会通过谈话来激励或促使人们从事任何危险行为，但我与纳洛酮和芬太尼试纸的斗争一直存在。

Oh, well, you tell me it's a bad idea to use a drug, but I'll just test it and make sure it's okay.

哦，好吧，你告诉我使用药物是个坏主意，但我会测试一下并确保它没问题。

Well, I have a couple of problems with that.

嗯，我对此有几个问题。

Even though I still believe in it, I still believe in having those there, because right now we have an overdose epidemic with fentanyl and other drugs.

尽管我仍然相信它，但我仍然相信那里有那些药物，因为现在我们有芬太尼和其他药物过量的流行病。

So I'll be honest with you, I grapple.

所以我会诚实地告诉你，我会努力。

If I were in a school and I saw a teenager taking a fentanyl test strip, which probably means that they're going to use it for themselves, is the first thing I want to do, shake the kid and say, are you crazy?

如果我在一所学校，看到一个青少年在拿芬太尼试纸，这可能意味着他们要为自己使用它，我想做的第一件事就是摇晃那个孩子并说，你疯了吗？

Don't.

不。

That means that you're thinking about using drugs?

这意味着你正在考虑使用毒品？

Of course.

当然。

That's my inclination as a parent, as a scientist, as a developmental psychologist, as a human being, you want to say, what are you doing?

这是我作为父母、作为一名科学家、作为一名发展心理学家、作为一个人的倾向，你想说，你在做什么？

So, yes, I would grapple.

所以，是的，我会格斗。

But, at the same time, if I know that there's a chance that a teen's going to go to a party or pick up a drug and not know, would I rather that they're safe?

但是，与此同时，如果我知道青少年有可能去参加聚会或吸毒而不知道，我是否宁愿他们是安全的？

Yes.

是的。

The problem with fentanyl test strips, though, is that they're not perfect.

然而，芬太尼试纸的问题在于它们并不完美。

If you are testing the right side of the pill, but it's the left side that has fentanyl, you still could die.

如果您正在测试药丸的右侧，但左侧含有芬太尼，您仍然可能会死亡。

And so I don't want to give the impression that there's one stop is going to fix anything right now.

因此，我不想给人留下这样的印象，即现在一站式解决任何问题。

It is not.

它不是。

And that is the, the issue with the comprehensive drug education or harm reduction conversations.

这就是全面毒品教育或减少危害对话的问题。

I'm not saying that it's perfect, I'm not saying that it's going to stop young people from engaging or young people from getting hurt or, unfortunately, dying.

我并不是说它是完美的，我并不是说它会阻止年轻人参与或年轻人受伤，或者不幸的是，死亡。

But if you have a group of youth who are going to use, I would still rather arm them with that information so they don't find themselves in trouble.

但如果你有一群年轻人要使用，我仍然宁愿用这些信息武装他们，这样他们就不会遇到麻烦。

That is the biggest part that scares me.

这是最让我害怕的部分。

Andrew Huberman: Is fentanyl making its way into all pharmaceuticals, like benzos, MDMA, I'm thinking about some of the things that are taken recreationally, benzos, MDMA, is it in cannabis?

Andrew Huberman：芬太尼是否已进入所有药物中，例如苯并类药物、摇头丸，我正在考虑一些休闲服用的东西，苯并类药物、摇头丸，大麻中是否含有芬太尼？

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: So most of what I've seen is either by itself, fentanyl using, or that it's mixed into pain pills a lot.

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher：所以我所看到的大多数情况要么是芬太尼本身的使用，要么是它被大量混合到止痛药中。

Andrew Huberman: Why would kids want to take pain pills?

安德鲁·休伯曼：为什么孩子们想要服用止痛药？

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: They're in pain, they're stressed.

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher：他们很痛苦，压力很大。

I see.

我懂了。

So they're doing it sort of self-directed, clinical.

所以他们的做法是自我导向的、临床的。

Correct.

正确的。

Or Prozac, they're anxious.

或者百忧解，他们很焦虑。

Andrew Huberman: I see.

安德鲁·休伯曼：我明白了。

So it's not like they're doing it for recreational drug use at parties.

所以他们这样做并不是为了在聚会上吸毒。

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: Some are, some aren't.

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher：有些是，有些不是。

I mean, there's been so many different circumstances.

我的意思是，有很多不同的情况。

Cannabis and vaping have been interesting debates, and we actually had this just the other day.

大麻和电子烟一直是有趣的争论，实际上我们前几天还讨论过这个问题。

Some of the studies suggest that and suggest that biologically, we can't necessarily combine cannabis or nicotine and fentanyl and have the same reaction on the body, and some suggesting that the studies haven't been there and it's still so new.

一些研究表明，从生物学角度来看，我们不一定将大麻或尼古丁和芬太尼结合在一起，并对身体产生相同的反应，而另一些研究表明，这些研究还没有进行过，而且它仍然是新的。

But I will tell you that talking to teens and some studies suggesting that, yes, teens are combining or at least getting, and a lot of times it's not knowingly, it's cut, the fentanyl is cutting, or drug manufacturers and sellers are cutting a drug with fentanyl, and so they're not even teens are knowing it.

但我会告诉你，与青少年交谈，一些研究表明，是的，青少年正在结合或至少得到，很多时候是在不知不觉中，它被削减了，芬太尼被削减了，或者药品制造商和销售商正在削减含有芬太尼的药物，所以他们甚至连青少年都不知道这一点。

But that some, I was talking to a person the other day who said that he has definitely heard of and seen some teens with fentanyl overdoses from cannabis or from vaping.

但前几天我和一个人交谈时，他说他肯定听说过并见过一些青少年因大麻或电子烟过量服用芬太尼。

So there's so much studies that are still needed right now and to understand the biological mechanism as well as the access to these drugs that we don't know, but I'm nervous.

因此，现在仍然需要进行大量研究，以了解我们不知道的生物机制以及获取这些药物的途径，但我很紧张。

So we teach about drug testing, we teach about not getting something off.

所以我们教授药物测试，我们教授如何不要脱药。

There used to be a skittle drug parties, you'd go and people would take drugs and all different things and put them in the, in the middle of a bowl in the middle of the room, and just you take whatever.

过去有一场九柱游戏毒品派对，你去的时候，人们会拿走毒品和各种不同的东西，然后把它们放在房间中间的一个碗中间，你就拿走任何东西。

Andrew Huberman: Whoa.

安德鲁·休伯曼：哇哦。

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: Oh, yeah.

邦妮·哈尔彭-费尔舍：哦，是的。

Andrew Huberman: When was that?

安德鲁·休伯曼：那是什么时候？

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: This is not long ago, maybe five, 10 years ago, I was hearing about these.

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher：这是不久前的事，也许是五年前、十年前，我听说过这些。

Andrew Huberman: I never went to a party like that.

安德鲁·休伯曼：我从来没有参加过这样的聚会。

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: I didn't either, but I didn't go to parties, I was a pretty square kid.

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher：我也没有，但我不去参加聚会，我是一个非常方正的孩子。

Andrew Huberman: But it's interesting.

安德鲁·休伯曼：但这很有趣。

Maybe it just was, I mean, there were certainly drugs around, but I feel like now, recreational pharmacology, it sounds like it's everywhere and so different.

也许只是，我的意思是，周围肯定有药物，但我觉得现在，娱乐药理学，听起来它无处不在，而且如此不同。

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: Yeah.

邦妮·哈尔彭-费尔舍：是的。

And self-medication is everywhere.

自我药疗无处不在。

Andrew Huberman: Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。

That wasn't common.

这并不常见。

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: That wasn't as common.

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher：这种情况并不常见。

Andrew Huberman: Or if it was, people weren't talking about it.

Andrew Huberman：或者即使是这样，人们也不会谈论它。

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: I think it was.

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher：我想是的。

I mean, I remember as a middle school student walking into the bathroom and somebody had taken, I think, what's called a lude then and had passed out.

我的意思是，我记得当我还是一名中学生时，走进浴室，有人服用了，我想，当时所谓的药物，然后就昏倒了。

It was certainly around different drugs, but not the same that we're seeing now.

这肯定是围绕着不同的药物，但与我们现在看到的不一样。

And we definitely saw cocaine overdoses when I was younger.

当我年轻的时候，我们确实看到过可卡因过量服用。

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, I feel like there was a lot of weed — cannabis, that is — alcohol, psilocybin, then as a recreational drug.

安德鲁·胡伯曼：是的，我觉得有很多杂草——大麻，即酒精、裸盖菇素，然后作为一种娱乐性药物。

Now, obviously, it's being explored as a clinical tool, as is cannabis, for that matter.

现在，显然，它正在被探索作为一种临床工具，就像大麻一样。

But hard drugs like cocaine, amphetamine, PCP, were discussed in the media a lot, but, and it certainly existed in some high schools and colleges and things like that, but it sounds like it's seeping out of everywhere.

但是像可卡因、安非他明、五氯苯酚这样的硬性毒品在媒体上被广泛讨论，但是，它确实存在于一些高中和大学之类的地方，但听起来它正在渗透到各个地方。

It is, and it's in these commercial products.

确实如此，并且存在于这些商业产品中。

I mean, I think the picture that has been created here is kind of an ominous one, so how optimistic are you?

我的意思是，我认为这里创造的画面有点不祥，那么你有多乐观？

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: I will tell you I'm optimistic in seeing a change in the landscape of education.

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher：我会告诉你，我对看到教育格局的变化感到乐观。

Now, some people say education doesn't work, that we need new policies.

现在，有人说教育不起作用，我们需要新的政策。

We need both.

我们两者都需要。

I mean, we have federal policies and regulations that are slipping through the cracks.

我的意思是，我们的联邦政策和法规正在被忽视。

FDA with regulation of e-cigarettes, with cannabis legalization, but not being enforced.

FDA 对电子烟进行监管，大麻合法化，但没有得到执行。

We have age restrictions not being enforced, so we certainly need education.

我们没有执行年龄限制，所以我们当然需要教育。

And I'm seeing more and more people, for example, the concept of harm reduction or comprehensive education, comprehensive sex ed, not everybody is, of course, up for it, but, or open to it, but I'm seeing more of a shift towards understanding the need.

我看到越来越多的人，例如，减少伤害或全面教育、全面性教育的概念，当然不是每个人都愿意接受，但是，或者对此持开放态度，但我看到更多的是朝着理解需求的转变。

I'm definitely seeing more teens, as we were talking about earlier, more teens being willing to say, no, that's not something I'm going to do.

我肯定会看到更多的青少年，正如我们之前讨论的那样，更多的青少年愿意说，不，这不是我要做的事情。

More teens joining youth groups, more teens speaking out about concerns and trying to be healthier and make healthier decisions for themselves.

更多的青少年加入青年团体，更多的青少年说出自己的担忧，并努力变得更健康，为自己做出更健康的决定。

So I'm optimistic in the human capital and the social capital.

所以我对人力资本和社会资本持乐观态度。

I'm not optimistic when it comes to the pharmacology or the drug capital, so to speak.

可以这么说，我对药理学或药物资本并不乐观。

More and more drugs infiltrating, infiltrating our youth.

越来越多的毒品渗透、渗透我们的青春。

I mean, you could vape, dot, dot, dot anything nowadays, and that makes me very nervous.

我的意思是，现在你可以吸、点、点、点任何东西，这让我非常紧张。

I do think vaping, and I am using vaping instead of e-cigarettes there to be more lay conversations there, or what the culture is saying, vaping is just more normalized than we've ever had it.

我确实认为电子烟，我使用电子烟而不是电子烟，是为了在那里进行更多的外行对话，或者按照文化所说，电子烟比我们以往任何时候都更加正常化。

Just like smoking was normalized, vaping and now vaping anything is very scary to me, and very much normalized.

就像吸烟已成为常态一样，吸电子烟以及现在吸任何电子烟对我来说都非常可怕，而且已经很常态化了。

So that worries me, again, the fentanyl, the hallucinogens, making its way more and more so that the drugs themselves and the new devices scares me, the social and the human capital gives me optimism.

所以这再次让我担心，芬太尼，致幻剂，越来越多，以至于药物本身和新设备让我感到害怕，社会和人力资本让我感到乐观。

Andrew Huberman: Very grateful to hear that you have optimism.

Andrew Huberman：非常感谢您的乐观态度。

Sounds to me, and correct me where I'm wrong, please, and add anything that for parents, for siblings, for teachers, for educators, or for any concerned citizen, it seems like having conversations about these things, the fact that they're happening, so not turning a blind eye.

对我来说，请纠正我的错误，并添加任何内容，对于父母、兄弟姐妹、老师、教育工作者或任何关心此事的公民来说，似乎就这些事情进行对话，事实上它们正在发生，所以不要视而不见。

The fact that kids are aware of it, that we're fooling ourselves if we think that they aren't aware of these risk-taking behaviors, they're all around them, anyway, so we shouldn't shy away from those conversations, and that at least having a conversation about the difference between avoiding behaviors and harm reduction is something that one ought to consider.

事实上，孩子们都意识到了这一点，如果我们认为他们没有意识到这些冒险行为，那么我们就是在欺骗自己，无论如何，他们就在他们周围，所以我们不应该回避这些对话，至少就避免行为和减少伤害之间的区别进行对话是人们应该考虑的事情。

I mean, obviously, this is a household-by-household choice.

我的意思是，显然，这是每个家庭的选择。

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: Absolutely.

邦妮·哈尔彭-费尔舍：当然。

Andrew Huberman: In some cases school-by-school or classroom-by-classroom choice, but certainly household, maybe even parent-by-parent choice.

Andrew Huberman：在某些情况下，是逐个学校或逐个教室的选择，但当然是家庭，甚至可能是逐个家长的选择。

But that because of social media and just because of the nature of youth, that young people are having these conversations anyway, that's what I'm hearing coming through.

但由于社交媒体和年轻人的本质，年轻人无论如何都会进行这些对话，这就是我所听到的。

And that you said, don't formalize the conversation so much, that Saturday at 3 o'clock we're going to have a discussion about drugs, but make it part of the landscape to create some ease--

你说过，不要把谈话太过正式化，周六下午 3 点我们将讨论毒品问题，但要让它成为场景的一部分，以创造一些轻松感——

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: Absolutely.

邦妮·哈尔彭-费尔舍：当然。

Andrew Huberman: Make it facile to talk about these things, concerns, and probably listen to them, too.

Andrew Huberman：让谈论这些事情和担忧变得容易，并且可能也倾听它们。

They're right there in the midst of it, so they have a data set internally about what's actually happening.

他们就在其中，所以他们内部有一个关于实际发生情况的数据集。

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: Totally agree.

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher：完全同意。

Totally agree.

完全同意。

And I often say to parents or educators, if they're listening to this podcast or anything, it's actually say, hey, I learned something, can we have a conversation about what I learned?

我经常对父母或教育工作者说，如果他们正在听这个播客或其他东西，实际上是在说，嘿，我学到了一些东西，我们可以谈谈我学到的东西吗？

And not confront.

并且不对抗。

Again, that it's a conversation not a confrontation, it's, let's normalize drug discussions, let's normalize behavior discussions, not normalize the use or the behavior itself.

再次强调，这是一场对话而不是对抗，让我们使药物讨论正常化，让我们使行为讨论正常化，而不是使使用或行为本身正常化。

So talk to your teens, you're absolutely right, talk to your teens, this is what I just learned, what do you know?

所以和你的青少年谈谈，你是绝对正确的，和你的青少年谈谈，这是我刚刚学到的，你知道什么？

Can we find out some information together?

我们可以一起了解一些信息吗？

Go on our REACH lab websites, go on other websites, go learn information out there, learn together and not lecture but have a conversation.

访问我们的 REACH 实验室网站，访问其他网站，了解那里的信息，一起学习，而不是说教，而是进行对话。

You may not know right away, a teen may not tell you right away, yes, I'm using, or yes, I'm having, or yes, I'm drinking alcohol, or yes, I'm doing something that is just a risky behavior, but that's not necessarily our goal as adults, to find out today whether or not somebody is doing something, it's okay to let it be a little bit more organic, it's okay to start that conversation and see.

你可能不会马上知道，青少年可能不会立即告诉你，是的，我正在使用，或者是的，我正在喝，或者是的，我正在喝酒，或者是的，我正在做一些只是危险行为的事情，但这不一定是我们作为成年人的目标，要了解今天是否有人在做某事，可以让它更有机一点，可以开始对话并看看。

That's your building trust.

这就是你建立的信任。

It is parent to parent, but I would say, I'm not gonna bust you, I certainly am not gonna be happy, but let's have a conversation so that way we can build the trust and I could help you.

这是父母对父母的关系，但我想说，我不会打击你，我当然不会高兴，但让我们谈谈，这样我们就可以建立信任，我可以帮助你。

Either not use, get help, stop using, or be safer in using, or help you prevent from using it all.

要么不使用，寻求帮助，停止使用，或者更安全地使用，或者帮助您阻止使用它。

So having that conversation, that organic, and talking to teens where they're at — as a developmentalist, that's what we do, meet people where they're at, meet youth where they're at, whether that's using already, not using, don't come at them with your preconceived notions as an adult, because it will not work, it will backfire.

因此，进行有机的对话，并与青少年进行对话——作为一名发展主义者，这就是我们所做的，在人们所在的地方与他们会面，与年轻人在他们所在的地方会面，无论是已经使用的还是未使用的，不要用你作为成年人的先入为主的观念来对待他们，因为这不会起作用，会适得其反。

We need to use the strengths.

我们需要利用优势。

Young people are strong, young people are smart, we need to use their strengths, take their lead, and then use our adult wisdom and experiences to then turn that into the proper conversation.

年轻人很坚强，年轻人很聪明，我们需要利用他们的优势，发挥他们的领导作用，然后利用我们成年人的智慧和经验，然后将其转化为正确的对话。

Andrew Huberman: I love it.

安德鲁·休伯曼：我喜欢它。

Well, on the topic of conversation and communication, one of the kind of unique features of this podcast is that we have a large social media footprint, and inside of that footprint, we not only broadcast information, but we get information back.

嗯，关于对话和交流的话题，这个播客的独特之处之一是我们拥有大量的社交媒体足迹，在这个足迹中，我们不仅广播信息，而且还获取信息。

So in anticipation of this conversation today, I reached out to followers of Huberman Lab social media on X, formerly known as Twitter, and Instagram, and they had a lot of questions for you.

因此，为了今天的这次对话，我联系了 X（以前称为 Twitter）和 Instagram 上 Huberman Lab 社交媒体的关注者，他们向您提出了很多问题。

We don't have time to go into the many thousands of questions, but I'm going to just ask you, if I may, in kind of a short Q and A format, a few of them.

我们没有时间讨论成千上万的问题，但如果可以的话，我只想以简短的问答形式问您其中的一些问题。

And if you don't have answers, you can just say pass, we'll get back to that, maybe we'll do another episode another time.

如果你没有答案，你可以直接说“通过”，我们会再讨论这个问题，也许我们下次再做一集。

Please don't feel obligated to give thorough answers, we just wouldn't have time.

请不要觉得有义务给出彻底的答案，我们只是没有时间。

Yeah.

是的。

So one of the top questions is, would love to learn more about how to get teens to see the longer-term implications of the choices they make and the habits they form now.

因此，最重要的问题之一是，希望更多地了解如何让青少年了解他们所做的选择和他们现在形成的习惯的长期影响。

Is there any way to get them to understand how now leads to later?

有什么办法让他们明白现在如何导致以后吗？

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: We've done studies where we've asked teens about their goals, and I want to be a dancer, we had one teen tell us, or I want to be a doctor, or I want to be whatever it is.

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher：我们做过研究，询问青少年的目标，其中一个青少年告诉我们，我想成为一名舞者，或者我想成为一名医生，或者我想成为任何人。

Asking teens about their goals, about their aspirations, and then connecting their current behavior and their current risks and keeping themselves healthy and how that plays into their goals, that tends to work a lot, and we've seen that in our studies.

询问青少年他们的目标、他们的愿望，然后将他们当前的行为和当前的风险联系起来，保持自己的健康，以及这对他们的目标有何影响，这往往很有效，我们在研究中已经看到了这一点。

Teens set boundaries, I don't want to get pregnant because I want to be a dancer, things like that.

青少年设定界限，我不想怀孕，因为我想成为一名舞者，诸如此类。

So really linking what they're doing now to their ultimate goals is one way to really help them think that through.

因此，真正将他们现在正在做的事情与他们的最终目标联系起来是真正帮助他们思考这一点的一种方法。

Andrew Huberman: I like that.

安德鲁·休伯曼：我喜欢这样。

How a different, maybe even larger goal, we could supersede these short-term behaviors, they could see how those things link up.

我们可以通过一个不同的、甚至更大的目标来取代这些短期行为，他们可以看到这些事情是如何联系起来的。

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: Absolutely.

邦妮·哈尔彭-费尔舍：当然。

Andrew Huberman: That's great.

安德鲁·休伯曼：那太好了。

There's another question that came in requesting some positive news about teenagers to be shared.

还有另一个问题要求分享一些有关青少年的积极消息。

Every discussion is around risk or emotional distress or social anxiety or phone addiction, as if they're all dysfunctional because of their brains.

每次讨论都围绕着风险、情绪困扰、社交焦虑或手机成瘾，好像他们都是因为大脑而功能失调。

We never dismiss toddlers learning to talk and walk because their brains are offline.

我们绝不会因为幼儿的大脑处于离线状态而忽视他们学习说话和走路。

So I think the point is that can we highlight some of the ways in which the adolescent teen brain is exceptional at something that perhaps the rest of the brains out there are not?

所以我认为重点是，我们能否强调青少年大脑在某些方面的特殊性，而其他人的大脑可能并不具备这种特殊性？

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: So I mentioned some of them around our youth group and about the youth movement now against drugs and other things.

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher：所以我提到了我们青年团体中的一些人以及现在反对毒品和其他事情的青年运动。

I think, and it comes the optimism, I'm the biggest teen advocate out there.

我认为，伴随着乐观情绪，我是最大的青少年倡导者。

It's why I study adolescents and I do the prevention and advocacy work that I do.

这就是我研究青少年并从事预防和宣传工作的原因。

Teenagers are fundamentally fantastic.

青少年基本上都是很棒的。

They're creative, they're passionate, teens care about the environment, kids really, teens really care about social justice, teens do care about our future and our planet, that is wonderful, well more than do adults right now.

他们富有创造力，充满热情，青少年关心环境，真的是孩子，青少年真正关心社会正义，青少年确实关心我们的未来和我们的星球，这太棒了，远远超过现在的成年人。

So I think we should be capitalizing on that.

所以我认为我们应该利用这一点。

Teens are incredibly creative, we need to be working with teens and young adults in everything that we do because they are our future, and I don't mean that as a cliché

青少年具有令人难以置信的创造力，我们需要在我们所做的一切事情中与青少年和年轻人合作，因为他们是我们的未来，我并不是说这是陈词滥调

, I really mean that.

，我真的是这个意思。

So having the conversation, let them be part of that conversation, help them find out what they think we should do to solve some of the problems, they're the ones to talk to.

因此，进行对话时，让他们成为对话的一部分，帮助他们找出他们认为我们应该做什么来解决一些问题，他们才是对话的对象。

So I am very optimistic about teenagers.

所以我对青少年非常乐观。

We have 40 teenagers and young adults who work with us all the time in our work, because we trust them.

我们有 40 名青少年和年轻人一直与我们一起工作，因为我们信任他们。

So I think some people are afraid of teens, I embrace them.

所以我认为有些人害怕青少年，我拥抱他们。

I think they're fantastic.

我认为他们太棒了。

Andrew Huberman: Love it.

安德鲁·休伯曼：喜欢。

Do we know how vaping shapes the teen brain?

我们知道电子烟如何塑造青少年的大脑吗？

In other words, are there any known biological changes in the developing brain as a consequence of vaping?

换句话说，吸电子烟会导致发育中的大脑发生任何已知的生物变化吗？

And here I'm going to assume it's vaping nicotine, but we talked about cannabis as it relates to psychosis earlier, so let's just keep it restricted to nicotine.

在这里，我假设它是电子烟中的尼古丁，但我们之前讨论过大麻，因为它与精神病有关，所以让我们将其仅限于尼古丁。

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: Sure.

邦妮·哈尔彭-费尔舍：当然。

Well, we know that during the adolescence that nicotine changes the brain wiring, and what do I mean by that?

好吧，我们知道在青春期尼古丁会改变大脑线路，这是什么意思？

We're actually born with the nicotinic receptors.

事实上，我们生来就有烟碱受体。

We're born with the ability to become addicted to nicotine.

我们生来就有对尼古丁上瘾的能力。

Same thing with the cannabis you were talking about before.

你之前谈论的大麻也是如此。

So if we don't, during the adolescent time, when we're pruning away and getting rid of the connections, the neurons that we don't need, what happens is, during that process, anything that we don't use, that we don't reinforce goes away.

因此，如果我们不这样做，在青春期，当我们修剪并消除我们不需要的神经元的连接时，会发生的事情是，在这个过程中，任何我们不使用、不强化的东西都会消失。

Well, if we introduce nicotine into our brain, it solidifies, It keeps that receptor there and also makes it to where our receptor is really kind of, I think of it as, like, keys and locks in a key, and suddenly you've got that receptor and it says, oh, you're putting nicotine in there, keep that in there, or cups.

好吧，如果我们将尼古丁引入我们的大脑，它就会凝固，它会将受体保留在那里，并使其到达我们受体真正所在的位置，我认为它就像钥匙和钥匙中的锁一样，突然你有了那个受体，它说，哦，你把尼古丁放在那里，把它放在那里，或者杯子里。

It's developing those cups I often think about and filling those cups with nicotine, and those cups are your receptors that were already there.

它正在开发我经常想到的那些杯子，并用尼古丁填充这些杯子，这些杯子是你已经存在的受体。

You then take away that nicotine and your cups say, I need more.

然后你拿走尼古丁，你的杯子就会说，我需要更多。

So you're rewiring your brain, you're wiring your brain to be more likely to become addicted, and now you're addicted, and you need to keep feeding those cups with nicotine or you're going to go through withdrawal and so that is what is happening during an adolescent and young adult that we don't see in adults.

所以你正在重新连接你的大脑，你正在连接你的大脑，以便更容易上瘾，现在你已经上瘾了，你需要继续用尼古丁喂这些杯子，否则你就会经历戒断，所以这就是我们在成年人中看不到的青少年和年轻人身上发生的情况。

That's why we really want to keep young people away from nicotine as long as possible.

这就是为什么我们真正希望让年轻人尽可能长时间地远离尼古丁。

Andrew Huberman: A lot of questions about, are there negative effects of pornography on the developing brain?

安德鲁·休伯曼：很多问题是，色情内容对大脑发育有负面影响吗？

I imagine there's a lot of literature on that.

我想有很多关于这方面的文献。

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: Yeah, I don't know as much, actually, in the developing brain.

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher：是的，实际上，我对发育中的大脑了解不多。

I'm sure there is, I don't know there is, but there's clear evidence about viewing pornography around just not having good, healthy sexual relationships, because porn is not normal.

我确信有，我不知道有，但有明确的证据表明观看色情内容只是没有良好、健康的性关系，因为色情内容不正常。

It is not a normal relationship between two people.

这不是两个人之间正常的关系。

What you are doing is really making it so that way, you are not necessarily developing a healthy relationship with your partner because you are assuming some gold standard out there that may or may not be able to be achieved.

你所做的实际上是这样，你不一定与你的伴侣建立健康的关系，因为你假设了一些可能实现也可能无法实现的黄金标准。

So, it also is also a problem with body shaming and the body types that most people don't have and can't achieve, and that's, that's another problem out there with pornography.

因此，这也是身体羞辱和大多数人没有也无法实现的身体类型的问题，这就是色情制品的另一个问题。

Andrew Huberman: A lot of questions about how social media impacts brain development.

Andrew Huberman：关于社交媒体如何影响大脑发育的很多问题。

That's probably an entire episode unto itself.

这本身可能就是一整集。

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: It is.

邦妮·哈尔彭-费尔舍：是的。

It is, that we could do another time.

是的，我们可以再做一次。

Andrew Huberman: And we should.

安德鲁·休伯曼：我们应该这样做。

And if you'd be so gracious to come back and do that, we will.

如果您愿意回来做这件事，我们会的。

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: Yes.

邦妮·哈尔彭-费尔舍：是的。

Andrew Huberman: I think, as just a final question, you know, is there any information about potential causality between the mental health crisis that we observe in youth and, let's just say, substance use of the sorts that we talked about today?

安德鲁·休伯曼：我认为，最后一个问题是，我们在年轻人中观察到的心理健康危机与我们今天讨论的物质使用之间是否存在潜在因果关系？

Obviously, the directionality is tricky there, you can imagine that a lot of high THC cannabis use is leading to more psychosis, but it seems more likely that kids are self-medicating--

显然，方向性很棘手，你可以想象大量使用高 THC 大麻会导致更多的精神病，但孩子们似乎更有可能进行自我治疗——

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: Correct.

邦妮·哈尔彭-费尔舍：正确。

Andrew Huberman: In the face of like immense challenge, you know, not just the lockdowns and the culture around isolating kids from other kids and the stress that was on everybody, stress generally, the sociopolitical landscape, social media, I mean, it's hard to not feel like it's at least a cloudier, maybe a darker time than it used to be, but I don't know.

安德鲁·休伯曼：面对巨大的挑战，你知道，不仅仅是封锁和将孩子与其他孩子隔离的文化，以及每个人承受的压力，还有社会政治格局、社交媒体，我的意思是，很难不觉得现在至少比以前更加阴云密布，也许是一个比以前更加黑暗的时期，但我不知道。

I mean, humans have evolved through a lot, and I don't know that it's also fair to say that everyone's bummed out about what they see, presumably there's still some optimists out there, so.

我的意思是，人类已经进化了很多，我不知道是否可以公平地说每个人都对他们所看到的感到沮丧，想必仍然有一些乐观主义者，所以。

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: Absolutely.

邦妮·哈尔彭-费尔舍：当然。

There are plenty of studies that show the bidirectional relationship between anxiety, depression, mental health, and substance use.

有大量研究表明焦虑、抑郁、心理健康和药物滥用之间存在双向关系。

You're right, a lot of teens are self-medicating by using various substances to reduce their anxiety, reduce their stress, and also just social lubrication, right?

你是对的，很多青少年都通过使用各种物质来自我治疗，以减轻焦虑、减轻压力，同时也只是社交润滑，对吗？

Of going into a party and pregaming or going into a party and using drugs to make themselves less stiff, less stressed during that situation, but more, what we're talking about is that they're self-medicating because they're feeling sad or uncomfortable, and this is, they think, helping them.

参加聚会、赛前或参加聚会并使用药物让自己在这种情况下不那么僵硬、减轻压力，但更重要的是，我们谈论的是他们自我治疗，因为他们感到悲伤或不舒服，他们认为这是在帮助他们。

Again, it's not helping, it's making them feel less bad by continuing to use.

再说一次，这没有帮助，而是让他们通过继续使用而感觉不那么糟糕。

But we also do know that drugs also lead to suicidal ideations, suicide attempts, psychosis, and other mental health issues.

但我们也确实知道，药物也会导致自杀意念、自杀企图、精神病和其他心理健康问题。

We also know that drugs lead to reduced academic achievement, and even though there's some potential cognitive reinforcement that's going on, there's also some issues with lack of concentration.

我们还知道，药物会导致学业成绩下降，尽管有一些潜在的认知强化作用，但也存在一些注意力不集中的问题。

The other piece, by the way, that we didn't really talk about a lot, but is the co-use — that we're seeing a lot of teens not just using multiple products, but using them together.

顺便说一句，我们并没有真正谈论太多，而是共同使用——我们看到很多青少年不仅使用多种产品，而且一起使用它们。

So a lot of teens who are chasing cannabis and tobacco because it enhances the high, or they're using cannabis with alcohol and other mixing of drugs, which is enhancing the high, but not in a good way, and very scary for young people.

因此，很多青少年追逐大麻和烟草，因为它会让人兴奋，或者他们将大麻与酒精和其他药物混合使用，这会让人兴奋，但不是以一种好的方式，对年轻人来说非常可怕。

And a lot of times young people don't even realize, like with blunts, which is truly, as I was saying before, using nicotine and cannabis together, that you're actually becoming addicted to both products really simultaneously, and that we're seeing young people who are having mental health issues and depression more likely to use both products.

很多时候，年轻人甚至没有意识到，就像我之前说过的那样，同时使用尼古丁和大麻，你实际上会同时对这两种产品上瘾，而且我们看到患有心理健康问题和抑郁症的年轻人更有可能使用这两种产品。

So definitely linkages there amongst mental health issues and multiple products as well.

因此，心理健康问题和多种产品之间肯定存在联系。

Andrew Huberman: So, polypharmacology?

Andrew Huberman：那么，多重药理学？

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: Yeah.

邦妮·哈尔彭-费尔舍：是的。

Andrew Huberman: Well, I don't want to end on a down note, but I don't think it's a down note.

安德鲁·胡伯曼：嗯，我不想以低调结束，但我不认为这是低调。

I think what you've done today in sharing with us the realistic landscape of what's happening out there, and the realistic landscape of what you're trying to do to ameliorate these issues is nothing short of spectacular.

我认为你今天所做的与我们分享了正在发生的事情的现实情况，以及你试图改善这些问题的现实情况，简直是令人惊叹。

Meaning, as cloudy as it may seem in our youth, there's also great hope in everything that you're conveying, which is, to put it simply, why would you be trying so hard to fix these problems if you didn't believe that they could be fixed?

意思是，尽管在我们年轻的时候看起来很阴暗，但你所传达的一切也都充满了巨大的希望，也就是说，简单地说，如果你不相信这些问题可以得到解决，你为什么要如此努力地解决这些问题呢？

So I find great optimism in the message.

所以我在信息中发现了极大的乐观情绪。

I also, I like data, and you've shared with us a tremendous amount of data about what's happening, what likely needs to change, and the optimal change and optimal route to change, as well as some realistic, perhaps less than optimal, but realistic approaches.

我也喜欢数据，您与我们分享了大量的数据，包括正在发生的事情、可能需要改变的事情、最佳的改变和最佳的改变途径，以及一些现实的、也许不是最佳的、但现实的方法。

Sometimes it's just a matter of harm reduction.

有时这只是减少伤害的问题。

We're not going to eliminate these potentially dangerous behaviors or dangerous behaviors, so for all of that, I want to say thank you.

我们不会消除这些潜在的危险行为或危险行为，所以对于这一切，我想说声谢谢。

It's a tremendous gift to us all.

这对我们所有人来说都是一份巨大的礼物。

And I know that we have a lot of parents and kids and nonparents and every age and background that listen to this podcast, and what's clear to me is that it's going to be a community effort to try and face all this.

我知道我们有很多父母、孩子和非父母以及各个年龄和背景的人收听这个播客，我清楚的是，这将是社区共同努力来尝试和面对这一切。

And I keep hearing in the back of my mind this thing that you've said several times now, that kids know what's happening, we have to have these conversations, they're hard conversations to have for any of us.

我一直在我的脑海里听到你已经说过好几次的事情，孩子们知道正在发生什么，我们必须进行这些对话，这对我们任何人来说都是艰难的对话。

They're uncomfortable for adults to have, but that until we normalize at least the conversation, it's unlikely that we're going to solve these problems.

对于成年人来说，面对这些问题会感到不舒服，但在我们至少使对话正常化之前，我们不太可能解决这些问题。

So thank you for your incredible efforts in the research domain and also for helping to normalize and bring about these conversations, they're oh, so important.

因此，感谢您在研究领域做出的令人难以置信的努力，也感谢您帮助规范和实现这些对话，它们非常重要。

Thank you so much.

太感谢了。

Bonnie Halpern-Felsher: Thank you very much.

邦妮·哈尔彭-费尔舍：非常感谢。

Andrew Huberman: Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Bonnie Halpern-Felsher.

Andrew Huberman：感谢您参加今天与 Bonnie Halpern-Felsher 博士的讨论。

Please be sure to check out the links in our show note captions to Dr. Halpern-Felsher's laboratory, an opportunity to contribute to the research in her laboratory and the zero-cost resources that she has provided for adolescent teen and young adult health.

请务必查看我们的节目说明标题中指向 Halpern-Felsher 博士实验室的链接，这是为她实验室的研究做出贡献的机会，以及她为青少年和年轻人的健康提供的零成本资源。

If you're learning from and or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel.

如果您正在学习或喜欢此播客，请订阅我们的 YouTube 频道。

That's a terrific zero-cost way to support us.

这是支持我们的绝佳零成本方式。

In addition, please subscribe to the podcast on both Spotify and Apple, and on both Spotify and Apple, you can leave us up to a five-star review.

另外，请在 Spotify 和 Apple 上订阅该播客，在 Spotify 和 Apple 上，您都可以给我们留下五星级的评论。

Please check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode.

请查看今天节目开头和整个节目中提到的赞助商。

That's the best way to support this podcast.

这是支持这个播客的最佳方式。

If you have questions for me or comments about the podcast, or topics or guests that you'd like me to consider for the Huberman Lab podcast, please put those in the comment section on YouTube.

如果您对我有疑问或对播客有意见，或者您希望我在 Huberman Lab 播客中考虑的主题或嘉宾，请将这些内容放在 YouTube 的评论部分。

I do read all the comments.

我确实阅读了所有评论。

Not so much on today's episode, but on many previous episodes of the Huberman Lab podcast, we discuss supplements.

今天的节目不多，但在 Huberman 实验室播客的许多以前的节目中，我们讨论了补充剂。

While supplements aren't necessary for everybody, many people derive tremendous benefit from them for things like improving sleep, for hormone support, and for focus.

虽然补充剂并不是每个人都需要的，但许多人从它们中获得了巨大的好处，例如改善睡眠、激素支持和注意力集中。

To learn more about the supplements discussed on the Huberman Lab podcast, you can go to Livemomentous, spelled O-U-S, so that's livemomentous.com/huberman.

要了解有关 Huberman Lab 播客上讨论的补充剂的更多信息，您可以访问 Livemomentous，拼写为 O-U-S，即 livemomentous.com/huberman。

If you're not already following me on social media, I'm Huberman Lab on all social media channels.

如果您还没有在社交媒体上关注我，我是所有社交媒体渠道上的 Huberman Lab。

So that's Instagram, X, LinkedIn, Facebook, and Threads.

这就是 Instagram、X、LinkedIn、Facebook 和 Threads。

And on all of those platforms, I discuss science and science-related tools, some of which overlaps with the content of the Huberman Lab podcast, but much of which is distinct from the content on the Huberman Lab podcast.

在所有这些平台上，我讨论了科学和与科学相关的工具，其中一些与胡伯曼实验室播客的内容重叠，但其中大部分与胡伯曼实验室播客的内容不同。

Again, that's Huberman Lab on all social media channels.

同样，这是所有社交媒体渠道上的 Huberman Lab。

If you haven't already subscribed to our Neural Network newsletter, our Neural Network newsletter is a zero-cost monthly newsletter that includes podcast summaries as well as brief protocols in the form of one-to-three-page PDFs, covering everything from deliberate cold exposure to a foundational fitness protocol, optimizing and managing your dopamine, neuroplasticity, and learning, all of which is completely zero-cost.

如果您还没有订阅我们的神经网络时事通讯，我们的神经网络时事通讯是一份零成本的每月时事通讯，其中包括播客摘要以及一到三页 PDF 形式的简短协议，涵盖从刻意的寒冷暴露到基础健身协议、优化和管理多巴胺、神经可塑性和学习的所有内容，所有这些都是完全零成本的。

And to sign up, you simply go to hubermanlab.com, go to the Menu tab, scroll down to Newsletter, and supply your email.

要注册，您只需访问 hubermanlab.com，转到“菜单”选项卡，向下滚动到“时事通讯”，然后提供您的电子邮件。

We do not share your email with anybody.

我们不会与任何人分享您的电子邮件。

Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Bonnie Halpern-Felsher.

再次感谢您参加今天与 Bonnie Halpern-Felsher 博士的讨论。

And last but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.

最后但并非最不重要的一点是，感谢您对科学的兴趣。