Dr. Bernardo Huberman: How to Use Curiosity & Focus to Create a Joyful & Meaningful Life

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.

欢迎来到休伯曼实验室播客，我们在这里讨论科学和基于科学的日常生活工具。

I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.

我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。

My guest today is Dr. Bernardo Huberman.

今天我的客人是贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman is the vice president of NextGen Systems at Cable Labs.

Bernardo Huberman 博士是 Cable Labs 的 NextGen Systems 副总裁。

Prior to that, he was the director of the Social Computing Laboratory at Hewlett-Packard, and he is, as his name suggests, my father.

在此之前，他是惠普社会计算实验室的主任，顾名思义，他是我的父亲。

Today, we discuss various topics in science, including relativity theory, chaos theory, and quantum computing.

今天，我们讨论科学领域的各种话题，包括相对论、混沌理论和量子计算。

But I'd like to assure you that even if you have zero background in physics, computer science, or mathematics, that entire discussion will be clear to you as to what those things are and even some of how they work.

但我想向您保证，即使您在物理学、计算机科学或数学方面的背景为零，整个讨论对您来说也会很清楚这些东西是什么，甚至它们是如何工作的。

During today's discussion, we also talk about a life of science, that is, what it is to spend one's life in curiosity, in trying to understand the universe around us, and how to understand ourselves.

在今天的讨论中，我们还谈论了科学的一生，即什么是一生都在好奇心中度过，试图了解我们周围的宇宙，以及如何了解我们自己。

Indeed, today, we also talk about neuroscience, how the brain works, and the different sorts of questions that I do believe everybody asks, whether you're a scientist or not.

事实上，今天我们还谈论神经科学、大脑如何工作，以及我相信每个人都会问的不同类型的问题，无论你是否是科学家。

Questions like, where do we come from?

像这样的问题，我们从哪里来？

Is there a God?

有上帝吗？

What is our use or purpose in the universe?

我们在宇宙中的用途或目的是什么？

And how is it that we can ponder these super high-level, abstract questions about how we got here and what our purpose is, and how things work at the quantum level, tiny bits of things that we can't even see, and at the same time, to lead an everyday life that is meaningful and joyful.

我们如何能够思考这些超高层次的、抽象的问题，比如我们是如何到达这里的、我们的目的是什么、事物如何在量子层面上运作、我们甚至看不到的微小事物，同时过着有意义和快乐的日常生活。

We talk about this in the context of understanding oneself in relation to others, family, community, including scientific community, and what it is like to come from a different country.

我们在理解自己与他人、家庭、社区（包括科学界）的关系以及来自不同国家的感觉的背景下谈论这一点。

My father immigrated from South America.

我父亲从南美洲移民。

What it was like to do science in the United States then and now, cultural differences, and of course, we touch on some of our relationship as well.

当时和现在在美国从事科学研究是什么样的，文化差异，当然，我们也谈到了我们之间的一些关系。

How could we not?

我们怎么能不呢？

I must say, for me, it was an immense pleasure and privilege to have this conversation, not just because Dr. Huberman is my father, but because I believe the knowledge and indeed some of the wisdom that he shares will be useful to everybody about what it is to carve one's own unique trajectory in terms of career and life, and at the same time, how to savor the simple, everyday things that make life so worth living.

我必须说，对我来说，能够进行这次谈话是一种巨大的快乐和荣幸，不仅因为胡伯曼博士是我的父亲，而且因为我相信他分享的知识和实际上的一些智慧将对每个人有用，让他们了解如何在职业和生活方面开辟自己独特的轨迹，同时如何品味让生活变得如此值得的简单、日常的事情。

Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.

在开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。

It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public.

然而，我的愿望和努力的一部分是向公众提供有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本消费者信息。

In keeping with that theme, I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast.

为了与这个主题保持一致，我要感谢今天播客的赞助商。

Our first sponsor is Helix Sleep.

我们的第一个赞助商是 Helix Sleep。

Helix Sleep makes mattresses and pillows that are customized to your unique sleep needs.

Helix Sleep 生产根据您独特的睡眠需求定制的床垫和枕头。

Now, I've spoken many times before on this and other podcasts about the fact that getting a great night's sleep is the foundation of mental health, physical health, and performance.

现在，我之前已经在这个播客和其他播客中多次谈到这样一个事实：睡个好觉是心理健康、身体健康和表现的基础。

Now, the mattress you sleep on makes a huge difference in the quality of sleep that you get each night.

现在，您所睡的床垫会对您每晚的睡眠质量产生巨大影响。

How soft that mattress is or how firm it is, how breathable it is, all play into your comfort and need to be tailored to your unique sleep needs.

床垫的软度、硬度、透气度都会影响您的舒适度，需要根据您独特的睡眠需求进行定制。

So if you go to the Helix website, you can take a brief two-minute quiz that asks you questions such as, do you sleep on your back, your side, or your stomach?

因此，如果您访问 Helix 网站，您可以参加一个两分钟的简短测验，其中会询问您一些问题，例如您是仰卧、侧卧还是俯卧？

Do you tend to run hot or cold during the night?

你晚上容易感到热还是冷？

Things of that sort.

诸如此类的事情。

Maybe you know the answers to those questions, maybe you don't.

也许您知道这些问题的答案，也许您不知道。

Either way, Helix will match you to the ideal mattress for you.

无论哪种方式，Helix 都会为您匹配理想的床垫。

For me, that turned out to be the Dusk mattress, D-U-S-K.

对我来说，这就是 Dusk 床垫，D-U-S-K。

I started sleeping on a Dusk mattress about three and a half years ago, and it's been far and away the best sleep that I've ever had.

大约三年半前，我开始睡在 Dusk 床垫上，这无疑是我睡过的最好的睡眠。

So much so that when I travel to hotels and Airbnbs, I find I don't sleep as well.

以至于当我去酒店和 Airbnb 旅行时，我发现我也睡不好。

I can't wait to get back to my Dusk mattress.

我迫不及待地想回到我的黄昏床垫上。

So if you'd like to try Helix, you can go to helixsleep.com/huberman.

因此，如果您想尝试 Helix，可以访问 helixsleep.com/huberman。

Take that two-minute sleep quiz, and Helix will match you to a mattress that's customized for your unique sleep needs.

进行两分钟的睡眠测验，Helix 将为您匹配专为您独特的睡眠需求定制的床垫。

Right now, Helix is giving up to 25% off all mattress orders.

目前，Helix 为所有床垫订单提供高达 25% 的折扣。

Again, that's helixsleep.com/huberman to get up to 25% off.

再次强调，helixsleep.com/huberman 提供高达 25% 的折扣。

Today's episode is also brought to us by BetterHelp.

今天的节目也是由 BetterHelp 为我们带来的。

BetterHelp offers professional therapy with a licensed therapist carried out entirely online.

BetterHelp 提供由持证治疗师完全在线进行的专业治疗。

Now, I've been doing weekly therapy for well over 30 years.

现在，我每周进行一次治疗已经有 30 多年了。

Initially, I didn't have a choice.

最初，我别无选择。

It was a condition of being allowed to stay in high school.

这是被允许留在高中的一个条件。

But pretty soon, I realized that therapy is an extremely important component to overall health.

但很快，我意识到治疗对于整体健康来说是极其重要的组成部分。

In fact, I consider doing regular therapy just as important as getting regular exercise.

事实上，我认为定期治疗和定期锻炼一样重要。

Now, there are essentially three things that great therapy provides.

现在，伟大的治疗基本上可以提供三件事。

First, it provides a good rapport with somebody that you can really trust and talk to about any and all issues that concern you.

首先，它与您真正信任的人建立了良好的融洽关系，并可以与您谈论您关心的任何和所有问题。

Second of all, great therapy provides support in the form of emotional support, but also directed guidance, the do's and the not-to-do's.

其次，伟大的治疗以情感支持的形式提供支持，但也提供定向指导、该做和不该做的事情。

And third, expert therapy can help you arrive at useful insights that you would not have arrived at otherwise.

第三，专家治疗可以帮助您获得有用的见解，否则您将无法获得这些见解。

Insights that allow you to do better, not just in your emotional life, in your relationship life, but also the relationship to yourself and your professional life and all sorts of career goals.

这些见解可以让你做得更好，不仅是在你的情感生活、你的人际关系生活中，而且还包括你自己的关系、你的职业生活以及各种职业目标。

With BetterHelp, they make it very easy to find an expert therapist with whom you can really resonate with and provide you with these three benefits that I described.

通过 BetterHelp，他们可以很容易地找到一位可以真正与您产生共鸣的专家治疗师，并为您提供我所描述的这三个好处。

Also, because BetterHelp is carried out entirely online, it's very time efficient and easy to fit into a busy schedule.

此外，由于 BetterHelp 完全在线进行，因此非常省时且易于适应繁忙的日程。

So if you'd like to try BetterHelp, go to betterhelp.com/huberman to get 10% off your first month.

因此，如果您想尝试 BetterHelp，请访问 betterhelp.com/huberman，第一个月可享受 10% 的折扣。

Again, that's betterhelp.com/huberman.

再说一次，这是 betterhelp.com/huberman。

And now for my discussion with Dr. Bernardo Huberman.

现在我与 Bernardo Huberman 博士进行了讨论。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman, welcome.

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士，欢迎光临。

Thank you, Andrew.

谢谢你，安德鲁。

And also great to see you, Dad.

很高兴见到你，爸爸。

Same here.

同样在这里。

I guess no premonition would have foreseen this one.

我想任何预感都不会预见到这一点。

No. Absolutely not.

不，绝对不。

And people might notice today I'm drinking out of a mate gourd, in part in honor of my father's father, who drank out of his loose-leaf mate every morning.

人们可能会注意到今天我用马黛茶葫芦喝酒，部分是为了纪念我父亲的父亲，他每天早上都用他的散叶马黛茶喝。

My first sip of mate was taken sitting in his lap when I was maybe four years old.

我第一口马黛茶是在我四岁的时候坐在他的腿上喝的。

Yes.

是的。

Indeed.

的确。

In my Spider-Man pajamas.

穿着我的蜘蛛侠睡衣。

In any event, let's talk about science.

无论如何，我们来谈谈科学。

You're born in Argentina.

你出生在阿根廷。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

As I recall, because once we had a conversation about it, you had a teacher, maybe it was in high school, who turned you on to physics, which became your field of choice.

我记得，因为一旦我们谈论过这个问题，你就有一位老师，也许是在高中，他让你转向物理，这成为你选择的领域。

Yes.

是的。

But prior to that Were you interested in different subjects?

但在此之前你对不同的科目感兴趣吗？

I don't recall if you had an avid interest in academics, or you just did it because you were supposed to, prior to that teacher.

我不记得你是否对学术有浓厚的兴趣，或者你只是因为在那位老师之前应该这样做而这样做。

Then we'll talk about him.

然后我们就谈谈他。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Yes.

是的。

I was always very interested in ideas and so on.

我一直对想法等非常感兴趣。

Science at that time was a bit vague, but I read a lot of philosophy.

那时的科学有点模糊，但是我读了很多哲学。

I didn't understand much of what I read, but nevertheless, I kept reading it.

虽然我不太明白所读的内容，但我还是坚持读了下去。

I was interested in psychology.

我对心理学很感兴趣。

I was an avid reader.

我是一个狂热的读者。

As a matter of fact, I embarrassed my father, or actually made him disappointed when, for a birthday, I think I was 14 years old, I asked him to buy me the 12 volumes of Freud's writings.

事实上，当我14岁生日时，我让父亲给我买12卷弗洛伊德著作时，我让他感到尴尬，或者实际上让他失望了。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Really?

真的吗？

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Yeah.

是的。

And he said, "What for?" But I was very impressed with it.

他说：“为什么？”但我对此印象非常深刻。

Of course, I couldn't even understand half of what these books had in them.

当然，这些书里的内容我连一半都看不懂。

So I was very interested in many things.

所以我对很多事情都很感兴趣。

And I must say to you that my interest in science, in particular physics, doesn't come from the standard thing that you see here in the United States, mostly.

我必须对你说，我对科学，特别是物理学的兴趣，大部分不是来自你在美国看到的标准事物。

Namely, I was not a whiz kid in math.

也就是说，我不是数学天才。

I was not one of these people that can really do things very quickly and so on.

我不是那些能够很快做事的人之一。

But I was interested because I thought that physics was going to complement my attempt at understanding how the whole universe is put together.

但我很感兴趣，因为我认为物理学将补充我理解整个宇宙如何组合在一起的尝试。

The philosophers were saying all sorts of things.

哲学家们说了各种各样的事情。

I went to a very special school that I learned six years of Latin and so on, and I had to read things like Kant and Cosmogony, and so on, that really didn't mean much to me.

我去了一所非常特殊的学校，学了六年拉丁语等等，我还必须阅读康德和宇宙起源之类的东西，这对我来说真的没有多大意义。

But suddenly I started discovering that physics might be interesting.

但突然我开始发现物理学可能很有趣。

And I had a cousin, Hector, who was a physicist, a particle physicist already.

我有一个表弟，赫克托，他是一位物理学家，一位粒子物理学家。

He was living at that time in France.

当时他住在法国。

And so there was a little bit of that influence.

所以有一点这种影响。

But my interest was in things that had to do with fairly abstract ideas.

但我的兴趣在于那些与相当抽象的想法有关的事情。

I cannot believe that at one point or the other, I was very good in geometry class, being able to prove theorems.

我不敢相信，在某一时刻，我在几何课上表现得非常好，能够证明定理。

The teacher would just say, "Let's prove this." And I was somehow able to reason through and come to some proofs.

老师只会说：“让我们证明这一点。”我以某种方式能够推理并得出一些证据。

So I think that I was very interested in ideas and not necessarily in the very concrete aspects of science at that time.

所以我认为我当时对思想非常感兴趣，而不一定对科学的具体方面感兴趣。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Can I ask you a question about early schooling?

我可以问你一个关于早期教育的问题吗？

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So if I remember correctly, you were born naturally left-handed.

所以，如果我没记错的话，你生来就是左撇子。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

They forced you to learn-

他们强迫你学习——

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Correct

正确

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

to write with your right hand.

用右手写字。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You went to a very strict school.

你去了一所非常严格的学校。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Like military levels of strictness.

就像军事级别的严格程度一样。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Almost, yes.

几乎，是的。

It's a very interesting type of education.

这是一种非常有趣的教育方式。

They have it in France.

他们在法国有它。

It's called a lycée in France.

在法国它被称为“lycée”。

And this is a very special school in Argentina.

这是阿根廷一所非常特别的学校。

It was actually founded in the 1500s by the Jesuits, and my father went to that school.

它实际上是由耶稣会士于 1500 年代创立的，我父亲就读于那所学校。

And so he wanted me to go there, and my brother went there, too.

所以他想让我去那里，我哥哥也去了那里。

And it's six years of a very strict education, mostly humanistic.

这是六年非常严格的教育，主要是人文教育。

I learned Greek and learned Latin.

我学了希腊语，又学了拉丁语。

I learned immense amounts of history, which I loved.

我学到了大量我喜欢的历史。

And there were other courses in French and so on.

还有其他法语课程等等。

In French, we had to memorize incredibly long poems that we had to recite.

在法语中，我们必须记住我们必须背诵的非常长的诗歌。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Do you still remember some of them?

你还记得其中一些吗？

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Some of them, yeah.

其中一些，是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Because sometimes early memories are embedded so deeply that-

因为有时早期的记忆是如此深刻，以至于-

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Yes.

是的。

And my brother and I sometimes tell each other some of the pieces of these poems.

我和我的兄弟有时会互相讲述这些诗的一些片段。

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I'll just say something right now to foreshadow what will likely happen several times throughout today's discussion, which is any time that my father is in the presence of his brother, my Uncle Carlos, they start laughing about jokes that they've been telling over and over, back and forth with one another since they were young kids.

我现在要说的就是在今天的讨论中可能多次发生的事情，那就是每当我父亲和他的兄弟，我的卡洛斯叔叔在场时，他们就会开始大笑，因为他们从小就一直在一遍又一遍地讲着笑话。

So just the mere mention of his brother will bring a bit of a smile and a chuckle to-

所以只要提到他的兄弟就会带来一丝微笑和轻笑——

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Right

右

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

both of our faces.

我们俩的脸。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Yes.

是的。

So I learned a lot of French, and also my parents decided, my mother mostly, that I had to learn French and English, and I went to Alliance Française, where for five years I went there.

所以我学了很多法语，我的父母（主要是我的母亲）也决定我必须学习法语和英语，然后我去了法语联盟，在那里呆了五年。

I was essentially the only boy in the class, which was very nice in a way.

我基本上是班上唯一的男孩，这在某种程度上非常好。

And in order to graduate, essentially, to be fluent in French.

为了毕业，本质上是要能说流利的法语。

But in the special school I went to, the discipline was very strict.

但我就读的特殊学校，纪律非常严格。

We were supposed to do things you don't do in the United States.

我们应该做你在美国不做的事情。

The moment the teacher walks in, everybody stands up, and if you're late in standing up, you're just kicked out of the classroom and things of that sort.

老师一进来，大家就站起来，如果你站晚了，你就会被赶出教室之类的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Wow.

哇。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

But it was a lovely experience in many ways when I reflect on it because it gave me a humanistic education that has been incredibly useful in my career.

但当我反思它时，从很多方面来说，这都是一次愉快的经历，因为它给了我一种人文教育，这对我的职业生涯非常有用。

Most people don't realize that.

大多数人没有意识到这一点。

I tend to think of things in a very broad context, and it's because of the education I had.

我倾向于在非常广泛的背景下思考事物，这是因为我所接受的教育。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Okay.

好的。

So, and I loved history of Rome, and I'd learn to recite things in Latin.

所以，我喜欢罗马的历史，我会学习用拉丁语背诵东西。

And so I enjoyed that very much.

所以我非常喜欢这样。

My brother didn't, actually.

其实我哥哥没有。

And so.

所以。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Well, you two are very different.

嗯，你们两个很不同。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I have great adoration for Carlos, but you two are very different.

我非常崇拜卡洛斯，但你们两个非常不同。

And along those lines, I was just about to ask or mention, and some of our Argentine and South American listeners generally, and perhaps even European listeners, might be shocked and perhaps disappointed to learn that you're one of the few Argentines that I know who doesn't care much for the game of football, soccer.

沿着这些思路，我正要问或提到，我们的一些阿根廷和南美听众，甚至可能是欧洲听众，可能会感到震惊，也许会失望地得知你是我认识的少数几个不太关心足球比赛的阿根廷人之一。

It doesn't seem to concern you much at all.

这似乎根本不关心你。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

No. The reasons for that are sort of interesting, I think.

不。我认为其中的原因很有趣。

I've reflected on that because my own wife likes to watch a soccer game.

我对此进行了反思，因为我自己的妻子喜欢看足球比赛。

She's Danish.

她是丹麦人。

She likes the European tournaments.

她喜欢欧洲锦标赛。

I never liked mob behavior.

我从来不喜欢暴徒行为。

I never liked this whole passionate involvement in these things.

我从来不喜欢这种对这些事情的热情投入。

I don't know why.

我不知道为什么。

I was never able to understand it, to the point that I never went to a soccer game till the week before I left for the United States.

我一直无法理解这一点，以至于直到我去美国的前一周我才去看过足球比赛。

My brother insisted that I had to go to a soccer game, and this is sort of embarrassing, but at one point or the other, there was a good goal and so on, I stood up and said, "This is great." And it turned out I was on the wrong side of the audience, and people got very almost violent with me.

我哥哥坚持让我去看一场足球比赛，这有点尴尬，但在某一时刻，有一个很好的进球等等，我站起来说：“这太棒了。”结果我站在了观众的错误一边，人们对我几乎变得暴力起来。

So yeah, soccer to me is something that I watch, but I'm not passionate about it.

所以，是的，足球对我来说是我看的东西，但我并不热衷于它。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right.

对。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Yeah.

是的。

I never really felt that it was that interesting.

我从来没有真正觉得这有那么有趣。

Although I was in a rowing team, I learned boxing.

虽然我在赛艇队，但我学习了拳击。

I did a lot of sports, but I don't like that much of spectator sports.

我参加了很多运动，但我不太喜欢观赏性运动。

Like tennis, I played tennis since I was a teenager.

就像网球一样，我从青少年时期就开始打网球。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I'm not a spectator sport fan either.

我也不是观赏性体育迷。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

The other day, someone asked me what my favorite sports team is.

有一天，有人问我最喜欢的运动队是什么。

You'll like this.

你会喜欢这个的。

And I said the Harlem Globetrotters because they're undefeated.

我说哈莱姆篮球队是因为他们不败。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

They have the best record.

他们拥有最好的记录。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And that was actually the one professional sports team game you took me to when I was a kid.

这实际上是我小时候你带我去看的一场职业运动队比赛。

We'd always go see-

我们总是会去看——

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Absolutely

绝对

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

the Globetrotters.

环球旅行者队。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Yes.

是的。

Unbelievable.

难以置信。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

They're undefeated.

他们是不败的。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Yes.

是的。

Unbelievable.

难以置信。

Yes.

是的。

My father took me to see them, too.

我父亲也带我去看他们。

They're fantastic.

他们太棒了。

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I love it.

我喜欢它。

So your father was not a scientist.

所以你父亲不是科学家。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

No.

不。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Your brother's not a scientist.

你哥哥不是科学家。

And you were fated, according to them, to join the family business.

据他们说，你注定要加入家族企业。

But then you had a teacher who exposed you to physics.

但后来你有一位老师让你接触了物理。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

To physics, and to the notion of being authentic in what you want.

物理学，以及真实地实现你想要的东西的概念。

There were two parts to it.

它有两个部分。

He was a very interesting and tormented man, I felt.

我觉得他是一个非常有趣又饱受折磨的人。

But it was very interesting.

但这很有趣。

He would come into the class, most of the students really didn't care about what he was saying and so on.

他会走进课堂，大多数学生真的不关心他在说什么等等。

I was fascinated, not only by what he was saying, but his whole personality.

我很着迷，不仅是他所说的话，还有他的整个性格。

But I need to say something here that is important.

但我需要在这里说一些重要的事情。

I also was rather irresponsible.

我也是比较不负责任的。

You see, I grew up in a well-to-do family, that I never thought how I was going to make a living.

你看，我在一个富裕的家庭长大，我从来没有想过我要如何谋生。

So it was easy to be interested in science or anything because it's what you do.

所以很容易对科学或任何事情感兴趣，因为这就是你所做的。

Yeah.

是的。

You're interested in culture, you read books, you do things.

你对文化感兴趣，你读书，你做事。

But my father used to say, "What are you going to do once you graduate?

但我父亲常常说：“毕业后你打算做什么？

You don't want to start teaching in elementary schools or something of that sort." My brother used to say, "If he does physics, I'll have to support him," because...

你不想开始在小学或类似的地方教书。”我哥哥曾经说过，“如果他研究物理，我就必须支持他，”因为……

Yeah, he still says that.

是的，他仍然这么说。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So scientists were considered poor.

所以科学家被认为是穷人。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Poor, yeah.

可怜，是啊。

They couldn't get a job.

他们找不到工作。

Science in Argentina, Argentina has a big tradition in medical sciences, I think two or three Nobel Prizes and so on.

阿根廷的科学，阿根廷在医学方面有很大的传统，我认为有两三个诺贝尔奖等等。

But in physics, they produce some very good physicists.

但在物理学方面，他们培养了一些非常优秀的物理学家。

One of them lives in the United States.

其中一位住在美国。

He's very, very famous, Maldacena, and I haven't met him, but I know that he's one of the top people in the field.

Maldacena 他非常非常有名，我还没见过他，但我知道他是这个领域的顶尖人物之一。

But I just got into this because I was interested.

但我只是因为感兴趣才进入这个领域。

It sounded fascinating and abstract, and the ideas were so powerful.

这听起来令人着迷且抽象，而且这些想法是如此强大。

And I think, and I reflected a lot on this, when you are psychologically in adolescence, because my parents made me jump two grades, so I was much younger than my classmates, and that created a lot of problems for me.

我想，我对此进行了很多反思，当你在心理上处于青春期时，因为我的父母让我跳了两个年级，所以我比我的同学年轻得多，这给我带来了很多问题。

At the time when you're developing and so on, all the boys were talking about girls and so on, I still was really into understanding why the excitement and so on.

当你正在发育的时候，所有的男孩都在谈论女孩等等，我仍然很想理解为什么会兴奋等等。

I was very young.

我当时很年轻。

But it gave me a sense of order.

但它给了我一种秩序感。

Reading a book about physics and understanding that there are laws that tell you how things work gave me a tremendous sense of order and power.

阅读一本有关物理学的书并了解事物如何运作的定律给了我一种巨大的秩序感和力量感。

So everything else was a little bit in flow, and the family and my own relationships with friends and girlfriends or whatever.

所以其他一切都在顺利进行，包括家庭以及我自己与朋友和女朋友的关系等等。

And going back to science, it was just this sense of...

回到科学，这只是这种感觉......

And I still remember those days.

我仍然记得那些日子。

It was very soothing in a way.

从某种程度上来说，这非常舒缓。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So it's like a touchstone.

所以它就像一块试金石。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

And I teach later-

我后来教——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And what grade were you expo-- This teacher-

你是几年级的——这位老师——

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Yes

是的

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

was this middle school, high school?

这是初中、高中吗？

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Yeah.

是的。

No, yeah, in high school.

不，是的，在高中。

Yeah.

是的。

I was 13 or 14 years old, yeah, when I finally, I started listening to this, and I said, "Wow, this is impressive.

我当时 13 或 14 岁，是的，当我终于开始听这个的时候，我说，“哇，这太令人印象深刻了。

It's powerful." There are ways to know what's true and what's not true.

它很强大。”有一些方法可以知道什么是真的，什么是假的。

You just don't speculate on things.

你只是不去猜测事情。

But most of the stuff I didn't really understand.

但大部分内容我并没有真正理解。

Then I had this cousin of mine, Hector, who was already gone, but I would go to his parents' house, and there, there were his books, all these incredible books on quantum mechanics, relativity, and I would just take them home, and I didn't really comprehend a lot of the math, but somehow it seemed impressive.

然后我有了我的表弟赫克托，他已经走了，但我会去他父母家，那里有他的书，所有这些关于量子力学、相对论的令人难以置信的书，我会把它们带回家，我并没有真正理解很多数学，但不知怎的，它看起来令人印象深刻。

It was like looking into a mechanism or something.

这就像研究一种机制或其他东西。

And I used to take them to school, and one of my teachers once said, "You seem interested in this, but you don't understand this, so you need to learn it." And he was the one who started pushing me into this.

我曾经带他们去学校，我的一位老师曾经说过，“你看起来对这个很感兴趣，但是你不明白这个，所以你需要学习它。”他是那个开始推动我做这件事的人。

On the other hand, my family was saying, "You should become a lawyer." Just my brother and father.

另一方面，我的家人却说：“你应该成为一名律师。”只有我的兄弟和父亲。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And that never interested you.

你从来不感兴趣。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

No. It's interesting because now I'm very interested in aspects of constitutional law and so on.

不，这很有趣，因为现在我对宪法等方面非常感兴趣。

When I hear about arguments against the Supreme Court and so on.

当我听到反对最高法院的论点等等时。

I became very interested in law and economics later on, just to read about it.

后来我对法律和经济学非常感兴趣，只是想读一下。

But what my father was talking about at the dining room table was all about strategies of getting something done half an hour before the opposition, so you win a case.

但我父亲在餐桌上谈论的都是关于在反对之前半小时完成某件事的策略，这样你就能赢得官司。

I was totally interested in that.

我对此非常感兴趣。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I'm sensing a bit of a theme, which is that social dynamics and what other people do, regardless of whether or not they like it or it earns them a particular living, didn't capture you.

我感觉到了一个主题，那就是社会动态和其他人所做的事情，无论他们是否喜欢它或它为他们带来了特殊的生活，都没有吸引你。

The idea that people and their groups and their ways of thinking and behaving, while they may not bother you, it didn't captivate you the way that it sounds like physics made you think that there's something kind of bigger, that there's something more universal.

人们和他们的群体以及他们的思维和行为方式的想法虽然可能不会打扰你，但它并没有像听起来像物理学那样让你着迷，让你认为有某种更大的东西，有更普遍的东西。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Which indeed physics is, right?

这确实是物理学，对吗？

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It explains most everything.

它解释了几乎所有事情。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Yes.

是的。

And I-

而我——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Most everything.

几乎一切。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Yes.

是的。

And I also think that I was a bit of a loner.

而且我也认为我有点孤独。

It was very hard to find people that, children or young people that thought like me.

很难找到像我这样思考的人，无论是儿童还是年轻人。

So eventually, I became part of a group.

所以最终，我成为了一个团体的一员。

We were four or five guys that used to get together on Saturdays and go to the movies and so on, and then afterwards discuss whatever we were interested in and so on.

我们有四五个人，过去常常在周六聚在一起看电影等，然后讨论我们感兴趣的任何事情等等。

I was only 16 years old and deciding what to do with my life.

我当时只有 16 岁，正在决定我的人生要做什么。

Of all four of us, we committed.

我们四个人都做出了承诺。

Some of them came from incredibly wealthy families, two of them.

他们中的一些人来自极其富裕的家庭，其中有两个。

We committed to really be true to ourselves and pursue what we liked.

我们致力于真正忠于自己并追求我们喜欢的东西。

But I was the only one.

但我是唯一的一个。

The other two ended up running the business of their parents, and one of them essentially, I don't know what he did.

另外两个人最终经营了他们父母的生意，其中一个基本上，我不知道他做了什么。

I saw him years later.

多年后我见到了他。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Money becomes a pretty bright beacon for a lot of people.

对于很多人来说，金钱成为了一个非常明亮的灯塔。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

I'm grateful to you that you never pushed me to go in any particular direction.

我很感激你，因为你从来没有强迫我朝任何特定的方向前进。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You pushed me to not go in particular directions, but never with respect to academic choices.

你迫使我不要朝特定的方向发展，但绝不是在学术选择方面。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

In fact, I don't recall you telling me or Laura, by the way, folks, that's my sister's name, that we had to do ...

事实上，我不记得你告诉过我或劳拉，顺便说一句，伙计们，这是我姐姐的名字，我们必须这样做……

anything except attend our classes and do our best, but I never felt pushed to go into science.

除了参加我们的课程并尽力而为之外，我什么都做不了，但我从未感到被迫进入科学领域。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

No.

不。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

No.

不。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Although you had a little bit of a curiosity about it.

虽然你对此有一点点好奇。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Animals.

动物。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Animals.

动物。

And I remember I was going through a period in which I started getting convinced that there was very little to do in physics, and I wanted to change.

我记得我正在经历一段时期，我开始确信物理学没什么可做的，我想改变。

And one day, on a bike ride, I think I was carrying you on the back of my bicycle.

有一天，在骑自行车时，我想我把你放在自行车后座上。

You were young.

你还年轻。

You asked me, "What is the unsolved problem?" And I said, "I don't think it's in physics, but it's the brain." And you said, "Okay, I'll go into that." You said.

你问我：“还有什么问题没有解决？”我说：“我认为这不是物理学的问题，而是大脑的问题。”你说：“好吧，我来谈谈这个。”你说。

I'll never forget that.

我永远不会忘记这一点。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Well, it's interesting.

嗯，这很有趣。

I'm fascinated by human memory, as you know.

如你所知，我对人类记忆很着迷。

I know you are as well, and I recall that story as well.

我知道你也是这样，我也记得那个故事。

I recall it slightly differently, but we're really closely aligned, which is, I remember you used to walk me to school in the morning.

我记得略有不同，但我们确实非常一致，也就是说，我记得你曾经早上送我去学校。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And you would drop me off at the cut-through to the path behind Gunn High School.

你会让我在冈恩高中后面小路的直达路口下车。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Because I would pick up Kristen Harnett across the street, and you told me it would be better if I picked her up by myself and walked her to the end of the street-

因为我会在街对面接克里斯汀·哈内特，而你告诉我，如果我自己去接她并陪她走到街的尽头会更好-

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Right

右

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

which is where class was.

这就是上课的地方。

You were teaching me chivalry.

你在教我骑士精神。

And I remember asking you what you do.

我记得我问过你是做什么的。

I was probably five or six years-- Well, let's see, first grade, so it'd probably be somewhere around six or seven years old.

我当时大概五六岁——好吧，让我们看看，一年级，所以大概是六七岁左右。

I asked you what you do, and you said, "Physics." And I said, "Well, what is that?" And you said, "Well, let me tell you the feeling it gives me instead." You said, "You know the night before your birthday?" And I said, "Yeah." And you said, "You know that feeling?" And I said, "Yeah." And you said, "Well, that's how I feel every day when I go to work."

我问你做什么，你说“物理学”。我说：“嗯，那是什么？”你说：“好吧，让我告诉你它给我的感觉。”你说：“你知道你生日前一天晚上吗？”我说：“是的。”你说：“你知道那种感觉吗？”我说：“是的。”你说：“嗯，这就是我每天上班时的感受。”

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And I remember, I'll never forget that.

我记得，我永远不会忘记这一点。

And I said, "What do you do?" And you said, "I'm a physicist." And I said, "Well, then I'll be a physicist." And then I recall, so maybe we had the conversation twice, you saying, "Well, most of the big problems in physics are solved, so you should pick something perhaps a little less untread, like..." And I said, "Like what?" And you said, "Well, the brain is pretty interesting." And then I said, "Okay-

我说：“你是做什么的？”你说：“我是一名物理学家。”我说：“好吧，那我就成为一名物理学家。”然后我想起来了，所以也许我们进行了两次对话，你说，“好吧，物理学中的大多数大问题都已经解决了，所以你应该选择一些可能不那么未解决的问题，比如......”我说，“就像什么？”你说：“嗯，大脑非常有趣。”然后我说：“好吧——

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Yes

是的

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

I'll work on that."

我会努力解决这个问题。”

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Yeah.

是的。

No, that's true.

不，确实如此。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

This issue of feeling like before your birthday is something I remember saying to you.

我记得在你生日之前对你说过这样的话。

I don't recall feeling that way every day.

我不记得每天都有这样的感觉。

I do recall feeling like this when I had an idea, and finally it worked out, and we wrote a paper, and so on.

我确实记得当我有一个想法，最后它实现了，我们写了一篇论文，等等时的感觉。

It was an incredibly exciting time.

这是一个令人难以置信的激动人心的时刻。

Well, you know about it.

嗯，你知道的。

You've done it yourself now.

现在你自己已经做到了。

And so I wanted to convey that to you.

所以我想把这一点传达给你们。

It was very interesting and important to me that you understood that.

你理解这一点对我来说非常有趣和重要。

On the other hand, it made me feel very isolated as well, not only with you, with everybody.

另一方面，这也让我感到非常孤立，不仅是对你，对每个人。

It's a very esoteric field.

这是一个非常深奥的领域。

You used to walk into the study, look at me, writing equations and so on, and you'd say, "What's that?"

你过去常常走进书房，看着我，写方程式等等，你会说，“那是什么？”

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I was thinking about your study, which was just a door down from my childhood bedroom.

我在想你的书房，它离我童年的卧室只有一扇门。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I still remember the way that your study smelled.

我仍然记得你书房的味道。

I can still smell it.

我仍然能闻到它的味道。

I have an incredible sense of memory for certain things.

我对某些事物有着令人难以置信的记忆力。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I can still remember how your books were aligned, where your stereo was placed, your photos, your photo of Einstein, your photos of me and Laura and Mom.

我仍然记得你的书是如何排列的，你的立体声音响放在哪里，你的照片，你爱因斯坦的照片，你我、劳拉和妈妈的照片。

I remember all of it.

我都记得。

And the sofa that was just off behind it because you're a nap taker, which I inherited from you.

还有沙发就在它后面，因为你喜欢午睡，这是我从你那里继承的。

But I remember that, yeah, you would spend a lot of time in that office and listening to classical music.

但我记得，是的，你会花很多时间在办公室里听古典音乐。

Do you listen to music while you work, or did you listen-

你工作时听音乐，还是听-

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

All the time.

一直以来。

Yeah.

是的。

Classical music for me is something I discovered very young.

对我来说古典音乐是我很小的时候就发现的。

My parents also loved classical music, my brother too, and it's something that to me, has a tremendous emotional resonance with the way I feel.

我的父母也喜欢古典音乐，我的兄弟也喜欢古典音乐，这对我来说与我的感受产生了巨大的情感共鸣。

Sometimes it's background music.

有时它是背景音乐。

Sometimes I really listen very carefully.

有时候我真的很仔细地听。

It's something that I, yes, I've always had in my life and still have it.

这是我，是的，我一生中一直拥有并且仍然拥有的东西。

It's very important to me.

这对我来说非常重要。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But not many musicians in our family.

但我们家里音乐家并不多。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

No. Unfortunately.

不，不幸的是。

Yeah.

是的。

Although there is a very famous one.

虽然有一个非常有名的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

We've all tried.

我们都试过了。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Huh?

啊？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

We've all tried.

我们都试过了。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Yeah.

是的。

You in particular.

尤其是你。

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And we all failed.

我们都失败了。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Yeah.

是的。

There is a very famous Huberman, the great violinist, Bronislaw Huberman.

有一位非常著名的胡伯曼，伟大的小提琴家，布罗尼斯瓦夫·胡伯曼。

There's a picture, I think I sent it to you, he and Einstein.

有一张照片，我想我把它发给你、他和爱因斯坦了。

He was one of the greatest violinists in the 1920s, '30s, and '40s, an incredibly interesting man.

他是 20 年代、30 年代和 40 年代最伟大的小提琴家之一，是一个非常有趣的人。

He's the founder of the Israel Philharmonic, and that's one of the reasons that the name Huberman is in some street in Israel, because of him.

他是以色列爱乐乐团的创始人，这也是胡伯曼这个名字出现在以色列某条街上的原因之一，因为他。

But-

但是——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Are we related to him?

我们和他有关系吗？

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Unfortunately not.

不幸的是没有。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Which explains the lack of musical prowess in our family.

这解释了我们家庭缺乏音乐天赋的原因。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

We all love music, but none of us are good musicians.

我们都热爱音乐，但我们都不是优秀的音乐家。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

No. Right.

不，对。

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Except my cousin Diego.

除了我的表弟迭戈。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Diego, he has perfect ears, so he can really do interesting things.

迭戈，他有完美的耳朵，所以他真的可以做有趣的事情。

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So, going back to your childhood, this teacher.

那么，回到你的童年，这位老师。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So, what was it?

那么，那是什么？

You already had a sort of seeded interest in finding order, in things that made the world make sense.

你已经对寻找秩序、让世界变得有意义的事物产生了某种种子般的兴趣。

What was the political situation in Argentina at that time?

当时阿根廷的政治局势如何？

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Quite horrible parts of it.

其中相当可怕的部分。

There was a dictatorship that lasted for a long time, this Perón thing and so on.

有一个持续了很长时间的独裁统治，庇隆的事情等等。

He was really a follower of Mussolini and people of that sort during World War II.

在第二次世界大战期间，他确实是墨索里尼等人的追随者。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So what did that mean out in the streets?

那么这在街上意味着什么呢？

You grew up in the heart of Buenos Aires.

你在布宜诺斯艾利斯市中心长大。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But what did that mean in terms of, was there poverty everywhere?

但这意味着什么，到处都是贫困吗？

Was there violence?

有暴力吗？

What does it spell out to you?

它对你来说意味着什么？

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Well, it was a very oppressive regime.

嗯，这是一个非常压迫性的政权。

You had to be careful what you talked about.

你必须小心你所谈论的内容。

In my family, like most in that social class, we had maids and a cook, and so you had to be very careful what you said.

在我的家庭中，就像那个社会阶层的大多数人一样，我们有女佣和厨师，所以你必须非常小心你的言论。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Because they would run that information back?

因为他们会把这些信息跑回来？

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Absolutely.

绝对的。

And your grandfather, my father, at one point, was prevented from coming to visit me in the United States because he was classified as a communist because he did not join the Peronist party.

你的祖父，我的父亲，有一次被禁止来美国看望我，因为他没有加入庇隆主义政党，被归类为共产主义者。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Okay, for the record, we are not communists.

好吧，郑重声明，我们不是共产主义者。

We are both big believers in capitalism-

我们都是资本主义的坚定信徒——

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

sitting here at this table.

坐在这张桌子旁。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Yes.

是的。

So, it was terrible.

所以，这太可怕了。

It was a terrible time.

那是一段可怕的时光。

It was a very oppressive time.

那是一段非常压抑的时光。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But he wasn't a communist either.

但他也不是共产主义者。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

No, of course not.

不，当然不是。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

All right.

好吧。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Of course.

当然。

No, he was on the other side.

不，他在另一边。

But the idea at that time, it was to be classified as such.

但当时的想法是这样分类的。

Eventually, that information leaked, obviously, to the American authorities.

最终，这些信息显然泄露给了美国当局。

So when he asked for a visa, they denied him.

因此，当他要求签证时，他们拒绝了他。

It was a very complicated story.

这是一个非常复杂的故事。

I don't think we should waste time to know how it got eventually resolved through a friend of mine who was a priest, a Jesuit here in the United States.

我认为我们不应该浪费时间去了解这个问题最终是如何通过我的一位牧师朋友解决的，他是美国的一名牧师、耶稣会士。

But the point being that during that time, you had to be very careful the way you spoke, the way you said things.

但重点是，在那段时间里，你必须非常小心你说话的方式，你说话的方式。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm.

嗯。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

And there was a dictatorship that was very much like the fascists in Italy.

还有一个非常像意大利法西斯的独裁政权。

And actually, that dictatorship lasted until a few years ago, because as you know, perhaps you heard, the new president we have is one that actually ran against this whole ideology, Peronism and so on.

事实上，这种独裁统治一直持续到几年前，因为正如你所知，也许你听说过，我们的新总统实际上是反对整个意识形态、庇隆主义等的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Milei.

米莱.

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Milei, yes.

米莱，是的。

So I was not political at all, but you had to be careful.

所以我根本不关心政治，但你必须小心。

But it was a funny time.

但这是一段有趣的时光。

And when he was overthrown through a military revolution, my parents were delighted, and I remember the celebrations and so on.

当他通过军事革命被推翻时，我的父母很高兴，我还记得庆祝活动等等。

But that was considered the minority that was against him.

但这被认为是反对他的少数人。

It was a social class movement.

这是一场社会阶级运动。

The working class was behind Peron and what he promised and what he gave them.

工人阶级支持庇隆以及他的承诺和给予他们的东西。

But that eventually died.

但最终还是死了。

So the real problem was that there was no real commitment to science as an investment that a country should make.

因此，真正的问题是，没有真正致力于将科学作为一个国家应该进行的投资。

Yes, it was nice to have Nobel Prizes, and it's culturally good, but they didn't have the pragmatic notions that we have, see in the United States, of doing science means solving concrete problems.

是的，获得诺贝尔奖是件好事，这在文化上也是好事，但他们没有我们在美国看到的务实观念，即从事科学意味着解决具体问题。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And this was in the 1950s?

那是在 20 世纪 50 年代？

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

And '60s, too.

还有 60 年代。

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right.

对。

So this was one of the biggest and fastest progressions of physics and its implementation in the US.

所以这是物理学最大、最快的进步之一及其在美国的实施。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Yes, right.

是的，没错。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So were you hearing about that?

那么你听说过吗？

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Of course.

当然。

I was following it all, and I wanted to buy books about it and so on.

我一直在关注这一切，我想买有关这方面的书籍等等。

I had some conflicts with my father about spending money on books that he thought that were not going to take me anywhere and so on.

我和父亲因为花钱买书而发生了一些冲突，他认为这些书不会带我去任何地方等等。

He was a very pragmatic lawyer.

他是一位非常务实的律师。

He didn't understand why I was doing these things.

他不明白我为什么要做这些事情。

So yes, I was aware of everything.

所以是的，我知道一切。

And actually, the university was very good.

事实上，这所大学非常好。

I entered the university at you had to choose what you wanted to do, and after a tremendous personal crisis, I decided not to go into law or engineering, which was the alternative my father offered, and decided to study physics.

我进入大学时，你必须选择你想做什么，在经历了巨大的个人危机之后，我决定不进入法律或工程学，这是我父亲提供的选择，并决定学习物理。

And I didn't regret it at all.

我一点也不后悔。

It was a very impressive time.

那是一段非常令人印象深刻的时光。

I got a good education in physics, a little bit too abstract.

我受过良好的物理教育，但有点太抽象了。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So this was experimental physics or theoretical-

所以这是实验物理或理论-

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Both

两者都

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

physical physics?

物理物理？

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Both.

两者皆有。

In the lab, I was okay.

在实验室里，我没事。

I was better in classes on advanced-- I took a lot of courses in advanced mathematics and calculus and beyond that, and complex analysis and so on.

我在高级课程上表现更好——我选修了很多高级数学和微积分等课程，以及复杂的分析等等。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So it turns out you were good at math after all.

看来你的数学还是不错的。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Good, yes.

很好，是的。

I understand math.

我懂数学。

I'm not a whiz, like many of my students have been.

我不像我的许多学生那样是个高手。

I had guys that can do incredible things.

我有一些可以做出令人难以置信的事情的人。

That I can do them, but slowly.

我可以做到，但要慢慢来。

Okay.

好的。

I understand, yes.

我明白，是的。

But yeah, physics is something that I knew how to be intuitive about it.

但是，是的，物理学是我知道如何直观地理解它的东西。

I had already interesting ideas that perhaps didn't pan out, but yeah.

我已经有一些有趣的想法，也许没有成功，但是是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So the teacher in high school-

所以高中的老师——

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

were they the one that told you that there was a career in this thing?

他们是告诉你这件事有前途的人吗？

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Yes.

是的。

He said, "You should devote yourself to this if you really care about it." He was a man that obviously he was sort of tormented on many levels and so on.

他说：“如果你真的关心这件事，就应该全身心投入。”他是一个显然在很多层面上都受到折磨的人。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You say that because of the way he carried himself physically?

你说这是因为他的身体举止？

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Yes.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

He was troubled, but it was interesting.

他很烦恼，但也很有趣。

Intense man.

激烈的男人。

I still remember his name was in-- He was a philosopher.

我还记得他的名字是——他是一位哲学家。

His name was Eggerslan, which is a German name, and he started talking about discovering Christianity and what it meant to him, and what it is to be authentic, and so on.

他的名字叫埃格斯兰，这是一个德国名字，他开始谈论发现基督教以及它对他意味着什么，以及什么是真实的，等等。

And then I had a very large exposure to the great thinkers of the antiquity, the Roman and Greek.

然后我大量接触了古代罗马和希腊的伟大思想家。

So it was all, to me, fascinating, interesting.

所以这一切对我来说都是令人着迷的、有趣的。

And it was good to have friends that I could discuss these things with.

有朋友可以和我讨论这些事情真是太好了。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Do you think it's a disservice that nowadays in the United States, and even when I was growing up, but especially now, that we don't force kids to be exposed to all these topics?

你认为现在在美国，甚至在我长大的时候，尤其是现在，我们不强迫孩子们接触所有这些话题，这是一种伤害吗？

We try and track people into something early on.

我们尝试尽早追踪人们的情况。

Actually, a recent guest told me that many schools are now just giving knowledge, but not expecting kids to do problem sets.

其实最近有位嘉宾告诉我，现在很多学校只是传授知识，而不是要求孩子做习题。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Hmm.

嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Teaching them about physical activity, but not expecting them to do physical activity.

教他们有关体育活动的知识，但不期望他们进行体育活动。

Seriously.

严重地。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Well, that sounds a little bit funny.

嗯，这听起来有点好笑。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Well, no, but that is the direction that education in this country has gone.

嗯，不，但这就是这个国家教育的发展方向。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Right.

对。

I was a visiting professor in France, actually.

事实上，我是法国的客座教授。

You live there because of that, in Paris.

因此你住在巴黎。

And I discovered the French intellectual tradition is also very, very abstract compared to the American.

我发现法国的知识传统与美国相比也非常非常抽象。

The English and the Americans are the ones that took physics, and the Russians, too, into a very, very practical realm and made progress that are very, very concrete, almost engineering-like.

英国人和美国人将物理学带入了一个非常非常实用的领域，并取得了非常非常具体的、几乎像工程一样的进步。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, AG1.

我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商 AG1。

AG1 is a vitamin mineral probiotic drink that also includes prebiotics and adaptogens.

AG1 是一种维生素矿物质益生菌饮料，还包含益生元和适应原。

AG1 is designed to cover all of your foundational nutritional needs, and it tastes great.

AG1 旨在满足您所有的基本营养需求，而且味道极佳。

Now, I've been drinking AG1 since 2012, and I started doing that at a time when my budget for supplements was really limited.

现在，我从 2012 年开始饮用 AG1，当时我的补充剂预算非常有限。

In fact, I only had enough money back then to purchase one supplement, and I'm so glad that I made that supplement AG1.

事实上，当时我的钱只够购买一种补充剂，我很高兴我制作了这款补充剂 AG1。

The reason for that is even though I strive to eat most of my foods from whole foods and minimally processed foods, it's very difficult for me to get enough fruits, vegetables, vitamins and minerals, micronutrients, and adaptogens from food alone.

原因是，尽管我努力吃天然食品和最低限度加工食品中的大部分食物，但我很难仅从食物中获取足够的水果、蔬菜、维生素和矿物质、微量营养素和适应原。

And I need to do that in order to ensure that I have enough energy throughout the day, I sleep well at night, and keep my immune system strong.

我需要这样做，以确保我全天有足够的能量，晚上睡得好，并保持我的免疫系统强大。

But when I take AG1 daily, I find that all aspects of my health, my physical health, my mental health, and my performance, both cognitive and physical, are better.

但是当我每天服用 AG1 时，我发现我的健康各方面，我的身体健康，我的心理健康，以及我的认知和身体表现都更好了。

I know that because I've had lapses when I didn't take AG1, and I certainly felt the difference.

我知道这一点，因为我在不参加 AG1 的时候也曾犯过错误，而且我确实感受到了其中的不同。

I also notice, and this makes perfect sense given the relationship between the gut microbiome and the brain, that when I regularly take AG1, which for me means a serving in the morning or mid-morning and again later in the afternoon or evening, that I have more mental clarity and more mental energy.

我还注意到，考虑到肠道微生物组和大脑之间的关系，这是完全合理的，当我定期服用 AG1（对我来说意味着早上或上午服用一次，下午或晚上再次服用）时，我的思维更加清晰，精力更加充沛。

If you'd like to try AG1, you can go to drinkag1.com/huberman to claim a special offer.

如果您想尝试 AG1，可以访问 Drinkag1.com/huberman 申请特别优惠。

Right now, they're giving away five free travel packs and a year's supply of vitamin D3 K2.

目前，他们正在赠送五个免费旅行包和一年的维生素 D3 K2。

Again, that's drinkag1.com/huberman to claim that special offer.

再次强调，您可以通过 Drinkag1.com/huberman 领取特别优惠。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

When I came to the United States, I must tell you, I came as a graduate student at the University of Pennsylvania.

当我来到美国时，我必须告诉你，我是作为宾夕法尼亚大学的研究生来的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah, let's talk about that.

是的，我们来谈谈这个吧。

So how did you end up getting into the United States as a graduate student?

那么您最终是如何进入美国作为研究生的呢？

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Okay.

好的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You applied.

你申请了。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Yeah, I was graduating and the future looked rather gloomy.

是的，我即将毕业，未来看起来相当黯淡。

I had a girlfriend whose father was very wealthy, and she said, "No problem, you're going to work for my dad, and he's got a factory" or whatever.

我有一个女朋友，她的父亲非常富有，她说，“没问题，你将为我父亲工作，他有一家工厂”之类的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Why do I feel like that is not the kind of offer that you'll go for?

为什么我觉得这不是您想要的那种报价？

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

No, not at all.

不，一点也不。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I've never known you to work for anyone except you.

我从来不知道你为除了你以外的任何人工作。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Yeah, in a way.

是的，在某种程度上。

You're right.

你说得对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I'm a bit the same.

我也有点一样。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Yeah.

是的。

So yes.

所以是的。

Just the idea of running a business was not...

只是经营企业的想法并不...

I was truly idealistic and irresponsible, too.

我也确实很理想主义且不负责任。

But I had a cousin who already got his PhD in theoretical physics at Columbia University, was a professor in France, then Sweden, and so on.

但我有一个表弟，他已经在哥伦比亚大学获得了理论物理学博士学位，曾在法国、瑞典等地担任教授。

So I felt that perhaps I should go to the United States.

所以我觉得也许我应该去美国。

And so I started applying to this.

所以我开始申请这个。

My father was saying, "I won't even help you with this." He didn't like it.

我父亲说：“我什至不会帮你。”他不喜欢这样。

My parents didn't like it.

我的父母不喜欢它。

I was very close to my family in many ways.

我在很多方面都与家人非常亲近。

And so I applied to many places.

于是我就申请了很多地方。

I remember being accepted at, I think it was Cornell, and I said, "Oh, New York, that's great." Till someone said to me, "You have to take a plane to go to the real New York." I mean, Ithaca is not-

我记得被录取时，我想是康奈尔大学，我说，“哦，纽约，那太好了。”直到有人对我说：“你必须坐飞机才能去真正的纽约。”我的意思是，伊萨卡不是——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

He loves New York City.

他喜欢纽约市。

We both love New York City.

我们都喜欢纽约市。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Yeah, Ithaca is not for you.

是的，伊萨卡不适合你。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right.

对。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

So anyway, I got this very nice fellowship to go to University of Pennsylvania, which is-

所以无论如何，我得到了很好的奖学金去宾夕法尼亚大学，这是-

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Who was the fellowship from?

团契是从谁那里来的？

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

The Navy.

海军。

The United States Navy.

美国海军。

Yeah.

是的。

I'm very grateful for that.

我对此非常感激。

And I actually wrote that in my PhD thesis.

我实际上在我的博士论文中写了这一点。

I was very grateful, and I think it was incredible that they were supporting that kind of research.

我非常感激，我认为他们支持此类研究真是令人难以置信。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

They wanted to bring you to the US to build weapons?

他们想带你去美国制造武器？

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

No, not at all.

不，一点也不。

I came to the United States working for Professor Burstein, who just died at the age of 100 or 101.

我来到美国为 Burstein 教授工作，他刚刚去世，享年 100 岁或 101 岁。

And, no, but I was supported by the United States Navy.

而且，不，但我得到了美国海军的支持。

It was a fellowship at the University of Pennsylvania.

这是宾夕法尼亚大学的一项奖学金。

But I remember, in my first interview with some of the teachers, Penn professors, there I am talking to them about the foundations of quantum mechanics, and the guy says to me, "Let me give you an interesting problem.

但我记得，在我第一次采访宾夕法尼亚大学的一些老师时，我正在和他们谈论量子力学的基础，那个人对我说：“让我给你一个有趣的问题。

You have a ping pong ball, but instead of being a classical ping pong ball, it's a quantum one.

你有一个乒乓球，但它不是一个经典的乒乓球，而是一个量子乒乓球。

Could you tell me at what heights will it bounce?" I had no idea what to do.

你能告诉我它会弹到什么高度吗？”我不知道该怎么办。

I had no sense that you could turn all this knowledge into something implementable, practical, and so on.

我不知道你可以将所有这些知识转化为可实施的、实用的等等。

So it was quite a struggle the first year.

所以第一年是相当艰难的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So you had theoretical understanding-

所以你有理论上的理解-

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Yes

是的

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

not experimental understanding.

不是实验性的理解。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Right.

对。

Yes, or empirical and so on.

是的，或者经验等等。

I didn't know how to calculate things very well.

我不知道如何很好地计算事情。

Yeah.

是的。

I didn't think about this-

我没想到这一点——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Just like being good at math.

就像擅长数学一样。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

I was good, yeah, math, understanding the math.

是的，我数学很好，理解数学。

There's a different thing between understanding math-

理解数学和理解数学是不同的——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Sure.

当然。

Implementing

实施

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

...

...

implementing and creating things.

实施和创造事物。

Well, you learn that.

嗯，你学会了。

I had four years of graduate school.

我读了四年研究生。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

And got my PhD in physics, so obviously, yeah, I learned how to do it.

并获得了物理学博士学位，所以显然，是的，我学会了如何做到这一点。

But what I'm saying is that I had this very vague theoretical understanding of how the world worked, but not really practical.

但我想说的是，我对世界如何运作的理论理解非常模糊，但并不真正实用。

I didn't have it at my fingertips.

我并没有触手可及。

That's what you learn when you go to graduate school, as you know yourself.

正如您所了解的那样，这就是您进入研究生院时学到的东西。

Okay.

好的。

So that's-

所以那就是——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah, it's one thing to learn about the brain as an undergraduate, but in graduate school is where I learned how to slice brains, stain brains-

是的，作为本科生了解大脑是一回事，但在研究生院我学会了如何切片大脑、染色大脑——

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Right

右

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

trace connections, record from neurons, and it's a whole other business-

追踪连接、记录神经元，这完全是另一回事——

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Absolutely

绝对

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

to get your hands dirty in the thing.

弄脏你的手。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Absolutely.

绝对的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Absolutely.

绝对的。

And the same thing for me.

对我来说也是一样。

Yeah, taking courses and discovering what you like and dislike.

是的，参加课程并发现你喜欢什么和不喜欢什么。

I was a little bit bound to my professor because he was the one who gave me the fellowship, but I didn't like what he did, which was always very problematic.

我对我的教授有点束缚，因为他是给我奖学金的人，但我不喜欢他所做的事情，这总是很成问题。

And he's-

而他是——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Did you have a good relationship?

你们关系好吗？

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

It was funny.

这很有趣。

He sort of tried to become my surrogate father.

他有点想成为我的代理父亲。

But on the other hand, intellectually, I always felt the guy was not quite there.

但另一方面，从理智上来说，我总觉得这个人不太在那儿。

He was very famous and so on, but-

他很有名等等，但是——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Sure.

当然。

He's a member of the National Academy.

他是国家科学院院士。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

He was not.

他不是。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Oh.

哦。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

But he was very famous.

但他非常出名。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

But I always felt that there was a lack of depth into what we were doing.

但我总觉得我们所做的事情缺乏深度。

It was not just him, it was just the solid-state physics.

不仅仅是他，还有固体物理学。

There was a very famous, Murray Gell-Mann, who had total contempt for solid-state physics.

有一位非常著名的默里·盖尔曼（Murray Gell-Mann），他对固态物理学完全蔑视。

He used to call it squalid-state physics.

他过去称之为肮脏态物理学。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

For those that don't know Murray Gell-Mann, we'll get to Murray later, because I had the interesting experience of meeting him as a child.

对于那些不认识默里·盖尔曼的人，我们稍后会介绍默里，因为我小时候见过他，有过有趣的经历。

But he discovered the quark, he won the Nobel Prize.

但他发现了夸克，他获得了诺贝尔奖。

In many ways, is considered at least as superb a physicist as Feynman, maybe better.

在很多方面，他至少被认为是与费曼一样出色的物理学家，甚至更好。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Lesser known-

鲜为人知的——

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

but among physicists-

但在物理学家中——

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Profound

深刻

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

would evoke great fear in everybody.

会引起每个人的极大恐惧。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

We'll get to Murray in a little bit.

稍后我们将到达默里。

So did you enjoy graduate school?

那么你喜欢读研究生吗？

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Yes, but it was incredibly hard.

是的，但这非常困难。

Very hard, the first year on top of that.

非常艰难，第一年更是如此。

And also, personally, I was very lonely.

而且，就我个人而言，我非常孤独。

I was transplanted into a whole different world.

我被移植到了一个完全不同的世界。

Philadelphia is not a city I would recommend to many people to live in.

费城不是一个我会推荐给很多人居住的城市。

I escaped every weekend to New York, and my professor was always upset about that.

我每个周末都逃到纽约，我的教授总是对此感到不安。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And you went from being pretty well-off financially to basically having no money.

你从经济上相当富裕变成了基本上没有钱。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

I had no money.

我没有钱。

I lived on very little money, as a matter of fact.

事实上，我靠很少的钱生活。

Yes.

是的。

My father felt that, "Okay, this is what you're going to do.

我父亲觉得：“好吧，这就是你要做的。

You're going to survive on this." They paid for a ticket once a year to go back to visit, and it was incredibly nice and soothing to be back, to be taken care of and everything else, the life in the family.

你将靠这个生存下去。”他们每年买一张票回去探望，能回来，得到照顾，得到其他一切，享受家庭生活，真是令人难以置信的美好和舒缓。

And then going back again to Philadelphia and the reality of just being a student.

然后再次回到费城，回到作为一名学生的现实。

Unlike many people and foreign students that were with me in other places, I did not enjoy-- It was quite a cultural adventure for me to meet people from all over the world, to learn what they...

与在其他地方和我在一起的许多人和外国学生不同，我不喜欢——结识来自世界各地的人们，了解他们的知识，对我来说是一次文化冒险……

I became very close to a Japanese postdoc, a very interesting man.

我与一位日本博士后的关系非常密切，他是一个非常有趣的人。

But I was quite miserable.

但我却很痛苦。

And-

还有——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So this was in the mid-'60s?

那么这是在 60 年代中期吗？

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Yes, late '60s.

是的，60 年代末。

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

I did not like my life there at all.

我一点也不喜欢那里的生活。

I lived for four years.

我住了四年。

I didn't have a single girlfriend or anything.

我没有女朋友什么的。

I dated and so on, but I just felt that I was transplanted into an environment that I didn't like.

我约会等等，但我只是感觉我被移植到一个我不喜欢的环境中。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Okay.

好的。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Okay.

好的。

And on top of that, my conflict with my advisor was not serious because they were not overt, but they were there all the time.

最重要的是，我和导师的冲突并不严重，因为他们并不公开，但他们一直都在那里。

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

That can be tough.

这可能很艰难。

For those listening here, the relationship to your graduate advisor is a potentially wonderful A potentially hazardous one because they exert enormous control over your future.

对于在座的听众来说，与你的研究生导师的关系可能是一种美妙的关系，但也可能是危险的关系，因为他们对你的未来有着巨大的控制力。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Not just through letters of recommendation, but opportunities, and I got lucky in that sense.

不仅仅是通过推荐信，还有机会，从这个意义上说，我很幸运。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

You were very lucky.

你很幸运。

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

My advisor was the kind of person that if you went out to dinner with him, he ordered for you.

我的导师是那种如果你和他出去吃饭，他就会帮你点餐的人。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Are you kidding me?

你在开玩笑吗？

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

I'm not kidding.

我不是在开玩笑。

He was that kind of guy.

他就是那样的人。

He would take the whole group to a Chinese restaurant, and before you said, "I don't like this," he just ordered.

他会带大家去一家中餐馆，在你说“我不喜欢这个”之前，他就点了菜。

Once he took me for a whole weekend to his summer house to finish a paper.

有一次他带我花了整个周末去他的避暑别墅完成一篇论文。

The guy couldn't finish a paper, and I was a mess.

那家伙无法完成一篇论文，而我则一团糟。

And his daughter was there, she was 16 or 17, and she said, "Are you two going to talk physics?" I was going to say, "No, let's go for a walk." He said, "That's all we're going to do." But the physics consisted of him regurgitating whatever we were doing.

他的女儿也在场，她 16 岁或 17 岁，她说：“你们两个要谈论物理吗？”我想说：“不，我们去散步吧。”他说：“这就是我们要做的一切。”但物理学包括他反刍我们正在做的一切。

I remember I was so miserable, looking at my watch, seeing how the heck do I get out of here?

我记得我当时非常痛苦，看着手表，看看我到底要怎样才能离开这里？

I didn't have a car.

我没有车。

So I was sort of his prisoner from Friday to Sunday night.

所以从周五到周日晚上我就像他的囚犯。

So it was hard for me.

所以这对我来说很难。

I never really felt that happy.

我从来没有真正感到如此幸福。

On the other hand, I had no other options at that time.

另一方面，当时我没有其他选择。

Okay.

好的。

But then as soon as I graduated, I got out.

但后来我一毕业就退出了。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I was just thinking about how different your graduate school experience was-

我只是在想你的研究生经历有多么不同-

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Yes

是的

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

from mine.

从我的。

I delighted in my advisor, as you know.

如你所知，我很高兴我的顾问。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

She was amazing.

她太棒了。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

You had fantastic people.

你们有很棒的人。

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

I got lucky.

我很幸运。

And I got a lot of that from you, which was to, for those who don't know, I left a program at Berkeley, which everyone thought I was insane to leave Berkeley to go to Davis.

我从你那里得到了很多信息，对于那些不知道的人来说，我离开了伯克利的一个项目，每个人都认为我离开伯克利去戴维斯是疯狂的。

That was by choice.

那是出于选择。

But I remember what you said.

但我记得你说过的话。

You said, "How big is your incoming class at Davis?" Right?

你说：“你即将进入戴维斯的班级有多少人？”正确的？

Because by all standard criteria, Berkeley is the better institution.

因为从所有标准来看，伯克利都是更好的机构。

Davis is great, but Berkeley's considered exceptionally strong.

戴维斯很棒，但伯克利被认为异常强大。

And I said, "There are three of us." And you said, "Well, either you're making the best decision of your life or the worst mistake of your life."

我说：“我们是三个人。”你说：“好吧，你要么做出了一生中最好的决定，要么做出了一生中最严重的错误。”

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Right.

对。

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And then I think you asked me what was driving the decision, and I said, "Well, there's this person there, her name is Barbara Chapman, and she just seems to be working on things that if I don't work on these problems, I'm going to regret it.

然后我想你问我是什么推动了这个决定，我说，“嗯，那里有一个人，她的名字叫芭芭拉·查普曼，她似乎正在研究一些事情，如果我不解决这些问题，我会后悔的。

And I can't imagine working on anything else." And you said, "Well, go for it." Which I really appreciate because any parent, if I were a parent and my kid said, "I'm going to leave Berkeley and go to Davis halfway through a PhD and start again," I think I probably would've balked.

我无法想象从事其他任何事情。”你说：“好吧，那就去做吧。”我真的很感激，因为任何父母，如果我是父母和我的孩子说，“我要离开伯克利，去戴维斯攻读博士学位，然后重新开始，”我想我可能会犹豫不决。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Well, Barbara also played a very nice, supportive, emotional role in your life.

嗯，芭芭拉在你的生活中也扮演了一个非常好的、支持性的、情感化的角色。

It was obvious that she had tremendous preference for you.

看得出来，她对你有着极大的偏爱。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

You were like her son in many ways.

你在很多方面都像她的儿子。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I smile and well up a little bit only because, well, she passed away young, but she's just an amazing person, so I feel very blessed for that.

我微笑着，情绪激动了一点，只是因为，嗯，她很早就去世了，但她是一个了不起的人，所以我为此感到非常幸运。

That wasn't your experience with your advisor.

那不是你和你的顾问的经历。

So during that time, I did want to ask about this.

所以那段时间我确实想问这个问题。

I asked about it being the mid to late '60s because it was the counterculture movement.

我问起那是 60 年代中后期，因为那是反文化运动。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Yes.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Right.

正确的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And one thing that people should know about you, I'll just offer this up, is that in the entire time I've known you, which is a while now, you've been very clear, you never had any interest in recreational drugs.

人们应该了解你的一件事，我只想提供这一点，那就是，在我认识你的整个时间里，也就是现在，你已经非常清楚，你从来没有对消遣性毒品有任何兴趣。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

No.

不。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Never did them.

从来没有这样做过。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

No.

不。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Even though that was super common then.

尽管这在当时非常普遍。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I've never seen you have more than a glass of wine.

我从来没见过你喝的酒超过一杯。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You've never been drunk in your life.

你这辈子从来没有喝醉过。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Never.

从来没有。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And you don't like football despite being from Argentina.

尽管你来自阿根廷，但你并不喜欢足球。

It occurred to me on the drive over, peer pressure is just not something that impacts you.

在开车过来的路上我突然想到，同侪压力不会影响你。

You're not going to do something because people around you are doing it.

你不会因为周围的人在做某事而去做这件事。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Well, no, you're absolutely right.

嗯，不，你说得完全正确。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

I always felt this sense of uniqueness or whatever.

我总是感受到这种独特感或其他什么。

But I became very humble because of it.

但我因此变得非常谦虚。

I'm not arrogant.

我并不傲慢。

It's not that I feel that-

并不是我觉得——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

No, no, no

不，不，不

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

...

...

others are worse and so on.

其他的则更糟等等。

But yes, when I came to the United States, there was a decision I had to make, which is I remember explicitly thinking about.

但是，是的，当我来到美国时，我必须做出一个决定，这是我记得明确考虑过的。

It was the first time that I was beyond the control of my parents and family and the social environment in which I was in Argentina.

这是我第一次脱离了父母、家庭以及阿根廷社会环境的控制。

So you could do whatever you wanted.

所以你可以做任何你想做的事。

And I was not the only one who came.

而且我不是唯一来的人。

There were three or four brilliant mathematicians and physicists that came with me.

和我一起来的还有三四位杰出的数学家和物理学家。

And I saw them within a year just losing it all.

我看到他们在一年之内就失去了一切。

One of them never graduated.

其中一人从未毕业。

They got into drugs.

他们开始吸毒。

They moved to the village in New York, and they decided that that was the life they wanted to have.

他们搬到了纽约的村庄，他们决定这就是他们想要的生活。

Problem is that 10 years on, what are you doing, right?

问题是10年过去了，你在做什么，对吧？

Getting to be an old hippie is not that interesting.

成为一个老嬉皮士并不是那么有趣。

So I really had that notion at that time that I needed to be very disciplined, and I had to internalize a set of values and to ask myself what I want and what I don't want.

所以我当时确实有这样的想法，我需要非常自律，我必须内化一套价值观，并问自己我想要什么，我不想要什么。

And so, yes, indeed, I used to go to parties.

所以，是的，确实，我曾经去参加聚会。

To me, it was quite a surprise in New York, Philadelphia, people smoking pot and all sorts of other incredible things, getting drunk, and so on.

对我来说，在纽约、费城，人们吸大麻和其他各种令人难以置信的事情、喝醉酒等等，这真是令人惊讶。

It was something that I would say, "No, thank you," and that was it.

我会说：“不，谢谢”，仅此而已。

And I felt quite okay with it.

我对此感觉很好。

And I never felt the need to satisfy a group of people that were like this in order to be included.

我从来不觉得需要满足这样的一群人才能融入其中。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

There's only one person that I've ever met in my entire life, now that I'm 49, I can say things like now that I'm 49, who has never been drunk, never done drugs.

我这辈子只见过一个人，现在我已经49岁了，我可以说现在我49岁了，从来没有喝醉过，从来没有吸过毒。

Basically has never really had a sip of alcohol except for once, and that's Rick Rubin.

除了一次之外，基本上从来没有真正喝过一口酒，那就是里克·鲁宾。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

My good friend who's-

我的好朋友是——

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

I like your meaning.

我喜欢你的意思。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

By all standards is probably the greatest music producer of all time across a dozen different genres, right?

从所有标准来看，他可能是有史以来跨越十几种不同流派的最伟大的音乐制作人，对吧？

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Not just rock and roll-

不只是摇滚——

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Right

右

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

but classical, country, all this.

但古典、乡村，这一切。

And I once asked Rick, "You worked in music where drugs and alcohol are everywhere."

我曾经问里克：“你在毒品和酒精无处不在的音乐界工作。”

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Or at least used to be.

或者至少曾经是。

And he just said, "Yeah, it never really interested me.

他只是说：“是的，我从来没有真正感兴趣过。

I could be around it but not participate."

我可以绕过它，但不参与。”

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And so the two of you are the only people I know that have ever had that kind of relationship to what's going on around you, where you don't feel pulled into it.

因此，我认识的人中，你们两个是唯一与周围发生的事情有过这种关系的人，在这种关系中，你不会感到被卷入其中。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

I also didn't understand, for instance, the role of drugs and alcohol in young people, and I was a graduate student, to a large extent, plays a role of relaxation and getting rid of stress and anxiety and so on.

我也不太明白，比如说毒品和酒精对于年轻人的作用，而我是一名研究生，很大程度上是起到放松、摆脱压力和焦虑等作用。

To me, it was very interesting that people would actually come sometimes to my place and ask, "Do you have something to smoke?" Or, "Why?" "Because I'm nervous," or whatever.

对我来说，很有趣的是，有时人们会来到我家问：“你有烟吗？”或者，“为什么？” “因为我很紧张”之类的。

Well, deal with your State of anxiety, but you don't have to drink in order to do that.

好吧，处理你的焦虑状态，但你不必喝酒才能做到这一点。

And I was always a little bit also concerned about my brain.

我也总是有点担心我的大脑。

I was afraid that these things would just take me over the edge, off the rails.

我担心这些事情会让我陷入困境，脱离正轨。

But I think I need to say this, I was also rather judgmental of people who did it at that time.

但我想我需要这么说，我对当时做这件事的人也有相当的评判。

And it was a way, by being judgmental, by saying, "This is wrong," then I was able to stay on my track.

这是一种方式，通过批判，通过说“这是错误的”，然后我能够坚持我的轨道。

Okay.

好的。

Today, I'm much more understanding.

今天，我明白多了。

I hear people, and if that's what works for them, it's fine, although I still don't like it.

我听到人们说，如果这对他们有用，那就很好，尽管我仍然不喜欢它。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

And it was even worse when we came to California, because here, everything was going on, not just drugs and everything else.

当我们来到加利福尼亚时，情况更糟，因为在这里，一切都在发生，不仅仅是毒品和其他一切。

So-

所以——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Well, let's talk about that, but not that specifically right off the bat.

好吧，我们来谈谈这个，但不是立即具体讨论。

So you finished your PhD.

所以你完成了博士学位。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You could have done a postdoc, become a professor.

你本来可以做博士后，成为教授。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

I was playing with that.

我正在玩那个。

My dream was to go to Cambridge University in England, not only because the Cavendish Laboratory was fantastic.

我的梦想是去英国剑桥大学，不仅仅是因为卡文迪什实验室非常棒。

There was a whole thing on DNA, Crick was there and so on.

DNA 上有一整套东西，克里克就在那里等等。

So I thought that perhaps I would just start inhaling some of those vapors.

所以我想也许我会开始吸入一些蒸气。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You wanted to get into biology.

你想进入生物学领域。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Well, I was interested.

嗯，我很感兴趣。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Because I read the famous book by Watson, "The Double Helix," and I couldn't sleep.

因为我读了沃森的名著《双螺旋》，我睡不着。

I read it one night and said, "It's incredible what this guy did."

有一天晚上，我读到这封信后说：“这家伙所做的事真是令人难以置信。”

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Amazing book.

很棒的书。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Amazing book, yes.

很棒的书，是的。

So I said, "Oh, the whole thing is becoming like physics.

所以我说：“哦，整个事情变得像物理学了。

It's no longer all these complicated names and so on." I was-

不再是所有这些复杂的名字等等。”我当时——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Well, it's crystallography, which is-

嗯，这是晶体学，就是——

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

physics and chemistry are so interdigited.

物理和化学是如此交叉。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Crystallography is boring because it's like botany.

晶体学很无聊，因为它就像植物学。

You have to learn all these crystals.

你必须学习所有这些水晶。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I'm just chuckling because the spaghetti model folks, or as we call them, the crystallographers, are probably covering their eyes right now, but that's all right.

我只是咯咯地笑，因为意大利面条模型的人们，或者我们所说的晶体学家，现在可能正在捂住眼睛，但这没关系。

They love what they do, and thank goodness for them.

他们热爱自己所做的事情，并感谢上帝。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

No, of course.

不，当然。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Because they design novel drug pockets-

因为他们设计了新颖的毒品口袋——

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Yeah, right

是的，对

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

and receptors.

和受体。

They're doing some cool stuff.

他们正在做一些很酷的事情。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

So I thought that being at Cambridge was okay.

所以我认为在剑桥还是不错的。

You would suffer from not even heating in the rooms and so on.

你会遭受房间里甚至没有暖气等问题。

But then what happens was, I met your mother, and then she brought a little bit of reality into my life and said-

但后来发生的事情是，我遇到了你的母亲，然后她给我的生活带来了一点现实，并说——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

How so?

怎么会这样呢？

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Well, she said, "It's time for you to graduate." Because I was just staying there as a PhD student.

好吧，她说：“你毕业了。”因为我只是作为一名博士生留在那里。

I was fine.

我很好。

Okay.

好的。

The money was a problem, but I got to live like this.

钱是个问题，但我必须这样生活。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You met Mom in New York.

你在纽约遇见了妈妈。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

I met your mother in New York, yes.

是的，我在纽约遇见了你妈妈。

And she had her feet on the ground and said, "It's time for you to graduate," and so on, and then she actually was right.

她脚踏实地地说：“你该毕业了，”等等，然后她确实是对的。

And so I decided to look for a job, and my professor wasn't necessarily letting me go.

所以我决定找一份工作，但我的教授并不一定会让我走。

He wanted me to stay as a postdoc with him, which-

他希望我留在他身边做博士后，这——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right.

对。

This is something people don't often understand, is that if a student or postdoc is very good, the advisors are disincentivized to move them along to their job.

这是人们常常不理解的一点，如果学生或博士后非常优秀，导师就没有动力将他们调动到工作岗位。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But it's a tricky game because you want the support of your advisor, but oftentimes your advisor, if you're very good-

但这是一个棘手的游戏，因为你需要顾问的支持，但通常你的顾问，如果你非常优秀的话-

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Right.

对。

Yes

是的

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

they want to keep you.

他们想留住你。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

So there was also another aspect at that time.

所以当时还有另外一个方面。

By then, I started thinking that I wanted to live a much more comfortable life.

从那时起，我开始思考我想要过上更舒适的生活。

I come from a family that lived a very comfortable life, and I wanted that very badly.

我来自一个过着非常舒适生活的家庭，我非常想要这样。

And so I started looking for jobs and so on.

于是我开始寻找工作等等。

My advisor was not too keen to tell me what to do.

我的顾问不太热衷于告诉我该怎么做。

So instead of going, I could have gone for a postdoc to a couple of places, but I wanted to be a little more independent.

因此，我可以不去，而是去几个地方做博士后，但我想变得更加独立。

And I discovered that there were research institutions like IBM and Xerox in the West Coast and so on, where people could do science, good science, and Bell Labs was the most famous one of all.

我发现西海岸有IBM、施乐等研究机构，人们可以在那里做科学，好的科学，而贝尔实验室是其中最著名的一个。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

That was on the East Coast.

那是在东海岸。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

In the East Coast.

在东海岸。

I went to Bell Labs for an interview, and I felt that they were running there like a Russian internment camp almost.

我去贝尔实验室采访，感觉他们几乎像俄罗斯集中营一样跑在那里。

It was unbelievable.

这太令人难以置信了。

We were 10 of us, and they took us around, and people were taking notes of what you were saying and asking and so on, telling us that it was an elite place.

我们有 10 个人，他们带我们四处转转，​​人们会记下你所说的、所问的等等，告诉我们这是一个精英场所。

It was an elite place.

那是一个精英之地。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So East Coast.

所以东海岸。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

The East Coast institutions, it makes sense to me now why, having been raised in the Bay Area, that East Coast institutions and I are just never going to mix.

东海岸的机构，现在对我来说很有意义，为什么我在湾区长大，东海岸的机构和我永远不会混合在一起。

Because they love tradition-

因为他们热爱传统——

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

they love hierarchy, and they love history.

他们热爱等级制度，也热爱历史。

Whereas on the West Coast, it's all about the startup, the IPO.

而在西海岸，一切都与初创公司、首次公开募股有关。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It's about what happened in the last three years and what's going to happen in the next 10 years.

这是关于过去三年发生的事情以及未来十年将发生的事情。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Right.

对。

Well, on the other hand, there is something nice to be said about the European model of universities-

嗯，另一方面，关于欧洲的大学模式，有一些值得称赞的地方——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

...

...

in the sense that the biggest contrast, you say this, I remember, when professors came to a colloquium and so on, they were wearing suit and tie at the University of Pennsylvania and Ivy League school and so on.

从某种意义上说最大的反差，你说这个，我记得宾夕法尼亚大学和常春藤盟校等教授来参加学术讨论会等的时候，他们都是穿着西装打领带的。

I came to Stanford.

我来到了斯坦福。

I went to the first colloquium, and the students were coming in shorts with their dogs into the auditorium.

我参加了第一次座谈会，学生们穿着短裤，带着他们的狗走进礼堂。

I couldn't believe it.

我简直不敢相信。

It was such an incredible cultural change.

这是一次令人难以置信的文化变革。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

But smart.

但很聪明。

Smart.

聪明的。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Oh, incredibly smart.

哦，真是太聪明了。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Incredibly smart.

非常聪明。

No doubt about that.

毫无疑问。

So in any event, I discovered something which historically became incredibly important, although I was marginally involved in it, which was Xerox Corporation had invented a copier, decided that they were going to get into the information age, and they decided to establish a new research center in Palo Alto, next to Stanford, where they would recruit people that would work on this whole thing, computers and information and physics and so on.

所以无论如何，我发现了一些历史上变得极其重要的事情，尽管我参与得很少，那就是施乐公司发明了复印机，决定他们将进入信息时代，他们决定在斯坦福大学旁边的帕洛阿尔托建立一个新的研究中心，在那里他们将招募能够从事这一切工作的人员，包括计算机、信息和物理等。

And I came in, and the guys, whoever interviewed me, they said, "Oh, this is exactly the place for you." So that's what I did.

我进来了，那些面试我的人都说：“哦，这正是适合你的地方。”这就是我所做的。

And the interesting thing was that while I was there doing what I thought was interesting things, there was a whole group of people, very small, that invented the personal computer.

有趣的是，当我在那里做我认为有趣的事情时，有一整群人，很小，发明了个人电脑。

Steve Jobs saw it and built the first Mac out of the Alto.

史蒂夫·乔布斯看到了这一点，并用 Alto 打造了第一台 Mac。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I had a classmate in high school, Becca Kanara.

我有一个高中同学，贝卡·卡纳拉。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I remember because she rode a Vespa to school.

我记得是因为她骑着一辆 Vespa 摩托车去学校。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Her mother was involved in that stuff.

她的母亲参与了那件事。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And her mom was involved in-

而她的妈妈也参与了——

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Yes

是的

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

creating the, it was Adele.

创造的，是阿黛尔。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Adele, yes.

阿黛尔，是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Adele Goldberg.

阿黛尔·戈德堡。

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Adele Goldberg, in developing the-

阿黛尔·戈德堡 (Adele Goldberg) 在开发-

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

SmallTalk

闲聊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

ability to move-

移动能力-

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

what appeared to be pages on the screen.

屏幕上看起来像是页面。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Object-oriented languages, yeah.

面向对象语言，是的。

I had no idea that was going on, I'll be honest with you.

老实说，我不知道发生了什么事。

It was going on the second floor.

事情发生在二楼。

They were all hippie-like.

他们都是嬉皮士。

It was a scandal of the life that they had there.

这是他们在那里生活的丑闻。

It was the '70s, and still, the Bay Area was not what it's now.

那是 70 年代，但湾区还不是现在的样子。

Everybody went to risottos, those take long lunches, and there was a lot of stuff on drugs and so on.

每个人都去吃意大利调味饭，午餐要花很长时间，而且还有很多关于毒品的东西等等。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Can I ask a question about that?

我可以问这个问题吗？

So Xerox PARC was this incredible place.

所以施乐帕克研究中心是一个令人难以置信的地方。

I remember going there when I was a kid to your lab.

我记得小时候去过你们的实验室。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Yes.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Actually, one of my earliest recollections was you took me into your and Jim Boyce's ...

事实上，我最早的回忆之一就是你带我去了你和吉姆·博伊斯的……

experimental lab.

实验实验室。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You told me to pick a piece of fruit.

你叫我摘一块水果。

There was a bowl of fruit.

有一碗水果。

I picked a banana.

我选了一根香蕉。

You took out the banana, you peeled it, and you dipped it into liquid nitrogen.

你拿出香蕉，剥皮，然后将其浸入液氮中。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

I forgot.

我忘了。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And then you told me to throw it on the ground, and we shattered the banana.

然后你让我把它扔到地上，我们就把香蕉打碎了。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And I thought that was the coolest thing ever.

我认为这是有史以来最酷的事情。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I remember that.

我记得。

So that was happening, but you mentioned the stuff that was happening about developing computer interfaces and that indeed Jobs borrowed or stole, mostly because PARC didn't protect the intellectual property well.

所以这种情况正在发生，但你提到了开发计算机接口方面正在发生的事情，而这些事情确实是乔布斯借用或窃取的，主要是因为 PARC 没有很好地保护知识产权。

I mean, he didn't do it illegally.

我的意思是，他没有违法。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

No.

不。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

They basically gave it away.

他们基本上把它放弃了。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

They basically gave it away, right?

他们基本上把它放弃了，对吧？

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Xerox was thinking that copiers were the future.

施乐认为复印机是未来。

That's it.

就是这样。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But I also recall, because I overheard the conversations between you and Mom when I was a kid, perhaps, that it was pretty wild at PARC.

但我也记得，因为我小时候无意中听到了你和妈妈之间的对话，也许，帕克研究中心的情况相当疯狂。

There was this whole room with the beanbags.

整个房间都放着豆袋。

People were taking LSD and other drugs.

人们服用LSD和其他药物。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

That wasn't your scene, though.

但那不是你的场景。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

No, not at all.

不，一点也不。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Okay.

好的。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

I was in the physics lab, and we can talk later a little bit about it, with Jim Boyce, who was a very interesting collaborator of mine, and so on.

我当时在物理实验室，我们稍后可以和吉姆·博伊斯（Jim Boyce）讨论一下，他是我非常有趣的合作者，等等。

We had a lot of fun, but not on that level.

我们玩得很开心，但还没有达到那个水平。

As a matter of fact, we were considered very square people doing what we were doing.

事实上，我们在做我们所做的事情时被认为是非常正直的人。

This is a group of people that were truly the...

这是一群真正...

Books have been written on this whole class of people that became really the embryo of what Silicon Valley became.

关于这一类人的书籍已经出版，他们实际上成为了硅谷的雏形。

They were brilliant people trying to do new things.

他们是尝试做新事物的才华横溢的人。

Adele, Alan Kay.

阿黛尔、艾伦·凯。

There were many of them.

他们有很多。

Bob Taylor.

鲍勃·泰勒.

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Did you ever want to get involved in that stuff?

你曾经想参与那些事情吗？

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

I used to see them as so...

我以前是这样看他们的...

Yeah, I'll tell you how I got involved.

是的，我会告诉你我是如何参与其中的。

The head of the group, Bob Taylor, a very charismatic man who was responsible for the development of the personal computer.

该小组的负责人鲍勃·泰勒（Bob Taylor）是一位非常有魅力的人，负责个人计算机的开发。

He was the head of the computer science lab.

他是计算机科学实验室的负责人。

He once heard that I played ping-pong, so he started challenging me to ping-pong, and so we used to play ping-pong.

他曾经听说我打乒乓球，所以他开始挑战我打乒乓球，所以我们就经常打乒乓球。

And the conversations were so odd because I would say, "Oh, you do computer science.

谈话很奇怪，因为我会说，“哦，你是做计算机科学的。

I have some mathematical problems.

我有一些数学问题。

I would like some guys in your lab to help me." He said, "We are not the kind of computer scientists you imagine, like at IBM with a white coat, fixing machines and solving math.

我希望你们实验室的一些人能帮助我。”他说：“我们不是你想象中的那种计算机科学家，就像在 IBM 一样，穿着白大褂，修理机器并解决数学问题。

We want to revolutionize the world.

我们想要彻底改变世界。

We want to change the way you think." He used to say that to me.

我们想改变你的思维方式。”他曾经对我说过这样的话。

And I sort of understood a little bit of it, but quite frankly, it seemed totally out of whatever I was doing.

我稍微理解了一点，但坦白说，这似乎完全不符合我正在做的事情。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

This is when Marc Andreessen, founder of Netscape, et cetera, a16z now, when he was sitting in the very seat you're sitting in here, he described this notion of wild ducks.

马克·安德森（Marc Andreessen），Netscape 等公司的创始人，a16z 现在，当他坐在你们现在坐的座位上时，他描述了野鸭的概念。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

That at companies, you have these people that are small groups of people that are really kind of wild and outrageous and really testing the outer limits-

在公司里，这些人都是一小群人，他们真的很狂野、令人发指，真正在测试外部极限——

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

of what's possible.

什么是可能的。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Do you think they serve an important role?

您认为他们发挥重要作用吗？

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Tremendous.

太棒了。

And I was a little bit of that in my field at that time.

那时我在我的领域里有一点点。

I was the first one to realize that once I saw these machines, I could use them for doing things even in physics that no one could do.

我是第一个意识到，一旦我看到这些机器，我就可以用它们来做一些在物理学中无人能做的事情。

And the kinds of fields that I chose to work on were totally out of what people were doing at Xerox or IBM and so on.

我选择从事的领域完全超出了施乐或 IBM 等公司的工作范围。

I think that these people are essential.

我认为这些人是必不可少的。

Now, the question is, what does a company or a university do with those ideas and so on?

现在的问题是，公司或大学如何利用这些想法等？

Xerox lost it completely.

施乐完全失去了它。

They showed them the stuff, and there's whole books that have been written about it.

他们向他们展示了这些东西，并且有很多关于它的书。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Well, one thing that I think I'm realizing now I inherited from you, consciously or unconsciously, is that while I've been more of a risk-taker with various aspects of my life than I probably should have been, but that I've always enjoyed being near people who are really pushing the boundary on something.

好吧，我想我现在意识到的一件事是，我有意识或无意识地从你那里继承了，虽然我在生活的各个方面都比我应该做的更敢于冒险，但我总是喜欢和那些真正在某件事上突破界限的人在一起。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Like my love of skateboarding, but not just skateboarding, but our friend Danny Way jumping the Great Wall of China, building mega ramps in his yard.

就像我对滑板的热爱一样，但不仅仅是滑板，还有我们的朋友 Danny Way 跳过中国长城，在他的院子里建造巨型坡道。

I knew I wasn't going to do that.

我知道我不会那样做。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But there's something about being adjacent to people like that-

但和这样的人相处有一些好处——

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Yes

是的

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

that changes the way that I've approached things that were more pedestrian to make them less pedestrian.

这改变了我处理那些平淡无奇的事物的方式，让它们变得不那么平淡无奇。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And maybe we'll return to this because I think that being around people who are real mavericks and real iconoclasts can be very beneficial, but it doesn't mean that you have to jump in and do what they're doing.

也许我们会回到这个话题，因为我认为和真正的特立独行者和真正的反传统者在一起是非常有益的，但这并不意味着你必须跳进去做他们正在做的事情。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Right.

对。

Well, I decided at one point to take huge risks, and as a matter of fact, my first piece of work after I got my job at Xerox PARC, which was supposed to work on some solid-state physics or whatever, was I had this notion, this fantasy of Einstein in the patent office.

好吧，我一度决定冒巨大的风险，事实上，我在施乐帕洛阿尔托研究中心找到工作后的第一份工作，本来应该研究一些固态物理学或其他什么，就是我有这个想法，爱因斯坦在专利局的幻想。

So I would start working on things that were crazy.

所以我会开始做一些疯狂的事情。

There's a whole notion in physics, which is called tachyons, particles that are faster than the speed of light.

物理学中有一个完整的概念，称为快子，即比光速还快的粒子。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

How do you say it?

你怎么说呢？

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Tachyons.

快子。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Tachyons.

快子。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

It's from the word tachos, which means fast, swift, means particles that are faster than the speed of light, which is impossible.

它来自tachos这个词，意思是快速、迅速，意味着粒子速度超过光速，这是不可能的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

But some physicists were playing with that idea, okay?

但有些物理学家正在考虑这个想法，好吗？

And I became very interested in that.

我对此非常感兴趣。

As a matter of fact, my first paper out of graduate school was on tachyons, and I had the pride of getting the paper accepted in the top physics journal.

事实上，我从研究生院毕业的第一篇论文是关于快子的，我很自豪这篇论文被顶级物理期刊接受。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It's "Physics Review Letters"?

这是《物理评论快报》？

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

"Physics Letters," yes.

《物理快报》，是的。

Yeah.

是的。

And I remember my cousin Hector sending me a note or something saying, "Well, now I see the road to perdition," he said.

我记得我的表弟赫克托给我发了一张纸条或什么东西说，“好吧，现在我看到了灭亡之路，”他说。

But I was so proud of it.

但我为此感到非常自豪。

I really thought that I was doing something incredible.

我真的以为我正在做一些不可思议的事情。

And it had nothing to do with the work I was doing on a daily basis, and I published several papers on things that were very important to me.

这与我每天所做的工作无关，而且我发表了几篇关于对我来说非常重要的事情的论文。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You have a lot of single-author papers.

你们有很多单作者论文。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

This is something that is especially rare in biology, but you have a lot of single-author papers.

这在生物学中尤其罕见，但单作者论文很多。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Yeah.

是的。

I was very proud of that.

我对此感到非常自豪。

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I'd like to take a quick break and thank one of our sponsors LMNT.

我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商之一 LMNT。

LMNT is an electrolyte drink that has everything you need and nothing you don't.

LMNT 是一种电解质饮料，拥有您需要的一切，没有您不需要的东西。

That means the electrolytes, sodium, magnesium, and potassium in the correct ratios, but no sugar.

这意味着电解质、钠、镁和钾的比例正确，但没有糖。

We should all know that proper hydration is critical for optimal brain and body function.

我们都应该知道，适当的水分对于最佳的大脑和身体功能至关重要。

In fact, even a slight degree of dehydration can diminish your cognitive and physical performance to a considerable degree.

事实上，即使是轻微程度的脱水也会在很大程度上降低您的认知和身体表现。

It's also important that you're not just hydrated, but that you get adequate amounts of electrolytes in the right ratios.

同样重要的是，您不仅要补充水分，还要以正确的比例获得足量的电解质。

Drinking a packet of LMNT dissolved in water makes it very easy to ensure that you're getting adequate amounts of hydration and electrolytes.

喝一包溶解在水中的 LMNT 可以很容易地确保您获得足够的水分和电解质。

To make sure that I'm getting proper amounts of both, I dissolve one packet of LMNT in about 16 to 32 ounces of water when I wake up in the morning, and I drink that basically first thing in the morning.

为了确保我摄入适量的两者，当我早上醒来时，我将一包 LMNT 溶解在大约 16 至 32 盎司的水中，并且我基本上早上第一件事就是喝它。

I'll also drink a packet of LMNT dissolved in water during any kind of physical exercise that I'm doing, especially on hot days when I'm sweating a lot and losing water and electrolytes.

在进行任何体育锻炼时，我还会喝一包溶解在水中的 LMNT，尤其是在炎热的日子里，当我大量出汗并失去水分和电解质时。

There are a bunch of different great-tasting flavors of LMNT.

LMNT 有多种不同的美味口味。

I like the watermelon, I like the raspberry, I like the citrus.

我喜欢西瓜，我喜欢覆盆子，我喜欢柑橘。

Basically, I like all of them.

基本上，我都喜欢。

If you'd like to try LMNT, you can go to drinklmnt.com/huberman to claim an LMNT sample pack with the purchase of any LMNT drink mix.

如果您想尝试 LMNT，可以访问 Drinklmnt.com/huberman，购买任何 LMNT 混合饮料即可领取 LMNT 样品包。

Again, that's LMNT spelled L-M-N-T, so it's drinklmnt.com/huberman to claim a free sample pack.

同样，LMNT 的拼写为 L-M-N-T，因此可以通过 Drinklmnt.com/huberman 索取免费样品包。

Today's episode is also brought to us by ExpressVPN.

今天的节目也是ExpressVPN给我们带来的。

ExpressVPN is a virtual private network that keeps your data secure and private.

ExpressVPN 是一个虚拟专用网络，可确保您的数据安全和私密。

It does that by routing your internet activity through their servers and encrypting it so that no one can see or sell your data.

它通过他们的服务器路由您的互联网活动并对其进行加密，以便没有人可以看到或出售您的数据来做到这一点。

Now, I'm familiar with the effects of not securing my data well enough.

现在，我已经熟悉了数据保护不够好的后果。

Several years ago, I had one of my bank accounts hacked, and it was a terrible amount of work to have that reversed and for the account to be secured.

几年前，我的一个银行账户被黑了，要扭转局面并确保账户安全需要付出巨大的工作量。

When that happened, I talked to my friends in the tech community, and what they told me was that even though you think your internet connection may be secure, oftentimes it's not, especially if you're using Wi-Fi networks such as those on planes, in hotels, at coffee shops, and other public places.

当这种情况发生时，我与科技界的朋友交谈，他们告诉我，即使您认为您的互联网连接可能是安全的，但通常情况下并非如此，尤其是当您使用 Wi-Fi 网络（例如飞机上、酒店、咖啡店和其他公共场所的 Wi-Fi 网络）时。

Surprisingly, even at home, your data might not be as secure as you think.

令人惊讶的是，即使在家里，您的数据也可能不像您想象的那么安全。

To make sure that what I described before would never happen to me again, I started using ExpressVPN.

为了确保我之前描述的事情不会再发生在我身上，我开始使用 ExpressVPN。

The great thing about ExpressVPN is that I don't even notice that it's running, since the connection it provides is so fast.

ExpressVPN 的伟大之处在于我什至没有注意到它正在运行，因为它提供的连接速度非常快。

I have it on my computer and on my phone, and I keep it on whenever I'm connected to the internet.

我的电脑和手机上都有它，每当我连接到互联网时我都会保持它。

With ExpressVPN, I know everything is secure.

有了 ExpressVPN，我知道一切都是安全的。

My web browsing, all my passwords, all my data, and of course, anything that's behind an account wall, like a bank account.

我的网页浏览、所有密码、所有数据，当然还有帐户墙后面的任何内容，例如银行帐户。

It can't be tracked, and no one can access or steal your data, which is terrific.

它无法被追踪，没有人可以访问或窃取你的数据，这真是太棒了。

If you'd like to start protecting your internet activity using ExpressVPN, you can go to expressvpn.com/huberman, and you can get an extra three months free.

如果您想开始使用 ExpressVPN 保护您的互联网活动，您可以访问expressvpn.com/huberman，您可以获得额外三个月的免费试用期。

Again, that's E-X-P-R-E-S-S-V-P-N.com/huberman to get an extra three months free.

再次强调，E-X-P-R-E-S-S-V-P-N.com/huberman 可以获得额外三个月的免费服务。

Can I ask you a question as a slight departure, but it's something I've always wanted to ask you.

我可以问你一个问题吗？虽然有点偏离，但这是我一直想问你的问题。

And feel free to say no if it's not something that could be done in a couple of minutes.

如果这不是几分钟内就能完成的事情，请随意拒绝。

So many people hear Einstein's name, they think of the hair, they think of relativity.

很多人听到爱因斯坦的名字，就会想到头发，想到相对论。

Is it possible to explain relativity in a way that the everyday person can get it a little bit better than they perhaps understand it now?

是否有可能以一种让普通人比他们现在理解的更好的方式来解释相对论？

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Yes.

是的。

As a matter of fact, I learned not long ago that Einstein himself wrote a popular book on relativity that seems to be very, very accessible.

事实上，不久前我了解到爱因斯坦本人写了一本关于相对论的通俗读物，看起来非常非常通俗易懂。

Okay.

好的。

Now, there are two aspects to relativity.

现在，相对论有两个方面。

There are two things that our brains were not made by evolution to understand intuitively.

有两件事我们的大脑在进化过程中无法直观地理解。

One is relativity, and the other one is quantum physics.

一是相对论，二是量子物理学。

We have intuitions like an animal, for instance, if you see a lion running after a zebra and so on, the lion can actually calculate intuitively the speed at which it can move and so on.

我们像动物一样有直觉，比如你看到狮子追斑马等等，狮子其实可以直观地计算出它能移动的速度等等。

We can do the same.

我们也可以这样做。

But if you start thinking about what happens when you get to near the speed of light, we have no intuition whatsoever.

但如果你开始思考当你接近光速时会发生什么，我们就没有任何直觉。

Time almost stops.

时间几乎停止。

There are all sorts of complicated things, lengths contract.

还有各种复杂的事情，长短合同。

It's a very complicated set of things, and that's why it's very hard to understand, although the math works.

这是一组非常复杂的事情，这就是为什么它很难理解，尽管数学是有效的。

Then there is general relativity.

然后是广义相对论。

That is even worse because there is some kind of a warping of space time that is responsible for gravitation.

情况更糟，因为某种时空扭曲导致了引力。

But I'll go into that in a second.

但我稍后会讨论这个问题。

The other one is quantum physics.

另一种是量子物理学。

Not only are they not wired to understand it near the speed of light, because no one moves near the speed of light.

他们不仅无法理解接近光速的速度，因为没有人以接近光速的速度移动。

We move at speeds that are fairly small compared to the speed of light.

与光速相比，我们的移动速度相当小。

And quantum mechanics is at such a microscopic level that is below basically the level of a molecule.

量子力学处于微观水平，基本上低于分子水平。

It's in molecules, atoms, and inside the atom.

它存在于分子、原子和原子内部。

So it's very hard to visualize or even understand some of the very counterintuitive ideas like entanglement and also...

因此，很难想象甚至理解一些非常违反直觉的想法，比如纠缠，还有……

So relativity can be understood in the sense that you can explain certain things, but people say, "Well, how can it work like that?" And then you have to get into the math.

所以相对论可以被理解为你可以解释某些事情，但人们会说，“嗯，它怎么能这样呢？”然后你必须进入数学。

Okay.

好的。

I took a course a few years ago on general relativity, and I just-

几年前我参加了一门关于广义相对论的课程，我只是——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Just for fun?

只是为了好玩吗？

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Yeah.

是的。

I wanted to learn it finally.

我终于想学了。

It's profound, deep, and it makes you feel that this man, Einstein, he had help from a lot of people, but still, it's an incredible thing.

这是深刻的，深刻的，它让你觉得这个人，爱因斯坦，他得到了很多人的帮助，但仍然是一件不可思议的事情。

It's on a level of Beethoven's symphonies and Mozart's piano concertos.

它的水平相当于贝多芬的交响曲和莫扎特的钢琴协奏曲。

It's something that comes into your head, and we are able to do, through a lot of struggle.

这是你脑海中浮现的事情，而我们通过大量的努力能够做到。

It took him years to do that.

他花了很多年才做到这一点。

Okay.

好的。

But it's profound.

但其意义深远。

Now, when you say can you explain, the point is Einstein one day discovered that if the speed of light is the speed of light, no matter how fast you move with respect to a beam of light, it's still moving at the speed of light.

现在，当你说你能解释一下时，重点是爱因斯坦有一天发现，如果光速就是光速，那么无论你相对于一束光移动多快，它仍然以光速移动。

That means that the notion of simultaneity between two events is relative now.

这意味着两个事件之间同时性的概念现在是相对的。

So you and I might say, "Yes, now is 1:10," but if you are moving very fast with respect to me, instead of 1:10, you'll say something else, okay?

所以你和我可能会说，“是的，现在是 1:10”，但如果你相对于我移动得非常快，而不是 1:10，你会说别的，好吗？

Just because time for you and I are not synchronized.

只是因为你我的时间不同步。

And that leads to all sorts of very interesting effects, and practical effects, too, because from there comes the idea that mass and energy are the same.

这会导致各种非常有趣的效应，以及实际的效应，因为由此产生了质量和能量相同的想法。

From there, nuclear weapons came out of that, all sorts of very interesting things.

从那时起，核武器就出现了，各种非常有趣的事情。

And today we can even detect gravitational waves that are coming from almost the beginning of the universe.

今天，我们甚至可以探测到几乎来自宇宙起源的引力波。

We can detect that because of those theories.

由于这些理论，我们可以检测到这一点。

They can calculate.

他们可以计算。

So It's profound, yes.

所以这是深刻的，是的。

Einstein, I think, stands on-- Newton too, by the way.

我认为爱因斯坦是站在这一立场上的——顺便说一句，牛顿也是如此。

Newton and Einstein, I think they're top people.

牛顿和爱因斯坦，我认为他们是顶尖人物。

But they talk to God, in a way, as they say.

但正如他们所说，他们在某种程度上与上帝交谈。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

We'll get back to God a little bit later.

我们稍后会回到上帝身边。

It seems to me that even though it's very hard to grasp, it's worth asking for those of us that don't have an intuitive sense of relativity theory that is starting to peer into these things a little bit, trying to understand them.

在我看来，尽管它很难掌握，但值得我们这些没有相对论直觉的人开始稍微研究一下这些东西，试图理解它们。

Do you think that it gives one's mind an ability to tap into forms of cognition that we don't normally think about when we're looking at macro mechanics of the world around us, that objects fall down, not up, and a helium balloon goes up, okay, and you can learn something about helium.

你认为它能让人的大脑有能力利用我们在观察周围世界的宏观力学时通常不会想到的认知形式吗？物体会下落，而不是向上，氦气球会上升，好吧，你可以了解一些关于氦的知识。

But it's all pretty straightforward with just a few simple bullet points.

但这一切都非常简单，只有几个简单的要点。

Whereas when you get into quantum mechanics, it challenges the mind in a way that it really feels like for most people, there's a cliff, and we just kind of go, "Okay." And obviously, there's trust there, but for people that are curious about understanding how the really tiny bits of the physical universe link up with the really big bits of the physical universe, where's the best place to start?

然而，当你进入量子力学时，它会以一种对大多数人来说确实感觉像是悬崖的方式挑战思维，我们只是说，“好吧”。显然，那里存在信任，但对于那些好奇地想了解物理宇宙的微小部分如何与物理宇宙的真正大部分联系起来的人来说，最好的起点是哪里？

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Well, okay.

好吧，好吧。

You're asking a very interesting question, which is, for most of us who are trained in physics, we learn how to calculate, we learn how to operate with these things.

你问了一个非常有趣的问题，对于我们大多数受过物理学训练的人来说，我们学习如何计算，我们学习如何操作这些东西。

I just got a patent on using quantum mechanics for communication and so on.

我刚刚获得了一项利用量子力学进行通信等方面的专利。

But still, the puzzle is why does it work the way it works?

但令人困惑的是，为什么它会这样工作？

So what I'm saying is you learn an operational way of doing these things operationally.

所以我想说的是，你要学习一种可操作的方式来做这些事情。

I don't know what happens in your brain because I have ideas that come out of intuitions, not just formulas and equations, and yet I don't necessarily think I understand deeply why these things are the way they are.

我不知道你的大脑中发生了什么，因为我的想法来自直觉，而不仅仅是公式和方程，但我不一定认为我深刻理解为什么这些事情是这样的。

They are where they are, and there's no reason why they shouldn't be like that.

他们就在他们所在的地方，他们没有理由不应该那样。

Our brains, as I said before, they are essentially conformed to understand the macroscopic world, not high speeds and so on.

我们的大脑，正如我之前所说，本质上是为了理解宏观世界，而不是高速等等。

So physicists who work in general relativity, I don't, can do incredible calculations, can tell you what a black hole collapsing into another black hole would do, and they're using general relativity things, and so they can do it.

因此，研究广义相对论的物理学家（我不这样做）可以进行令人难以置信的计算，可以告诉你一个黑洞塌缩成另一个黑洞会做什么，而且他们正在使用广义相对论，所以他们可以做到这一点。

Now, what it does to your brain that allows you to operationally work with these equations and solve it and have new ideas, it's something I don't understand.

现在，它对你的大脑做了什么，让你能够操作这些方程并解决它并产生新的想法，这是我不明白的事情。

For instance, the example that I give about quantum mechanics, that's a very simple one because I talk to a lot of people nowadays that work on this, is I can give you two dice.

例如，我举的关于量子力学的例子，这是一个非常简单的例子，因为我现在和很多从事这方面工作的人交谈过，我可以给你两个骰子。

Okay?

好的？

Just dice.

只是骰子。

You can go to Mars, and I stay here.

你可以去火星，我留在这里。

The dice are, let's assume they are quantum mechanically entangled.

假设这些骰子是量子力学纠缠的。

I throw my dice, I see three, you got three.

我掷骰子，我看到三个，你得到了三个。

And we don't communicate.

而且我们不交流。

They're entangled.

他们纠缠不清。

This is faster than the speed of light.

这比光速还快。

I throw again, five, you get five.

我再扔一次，五，你得到五。

I do one, you get one.

我做一个，你也得到一个。

It's an amazing thing.

这是一件了不起的事情。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

What is the origin of the entanglement?

纠缠的根源是什么？

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

It's a property of quantum systems that they can get entangled, that's the word, and somehow what happens to your system affects mine, but doesn't affect it in the sense, sends a signal.

这是量子系统的一个特性，它们可以纠缠在一起，就是这个词，不知何故，你的系统发生的事情会影响我的系统，但在某种意义上不会影响它，发送信号。

No signal.

无信号。

They're entangled.

他们纠缠不清。

Now, this becomes rather-

现在，这变得相当——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

They're not entangled through other bits of the universe.

它们并没有与宇宙的其他部分纠缠在一起。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

No.

不。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

They're totally independent?

他们完全独立吗？

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Totally independent, yes.

完全独立，是的。

They are entangled in the sense that quantum mechanically, they started like this.

从量子力学的意义上来说，它们是纠缠在一起的，它们是这样开始的。

Now, there are ways, there are trivial things.

现在，有一些方法，有一些琐碎的事情。

There's a famous example of the socks.

有一个著名的袜子例子。

Okay, so you take a trip, and you took a pair of socks.

好吧，你去旅行了，你带了一双袜子。

Let's assume they are blue socks and so on, and then you open your bag, and you, "Oh, I forgot one sock." So this is my blue sock, so you know that there is a blue sock at home.

假设它们是蓝色的袜子等，然后你打开包，然后你说：“哦，我忘了一只袜子。”这是我的蓝袜子，所以你知道家里有一只蓝袜子。

So knowing that is a correlation, but that's trivial, right?

所以知道这是一种相关性，但这很微不足道，对吗？

We can do that with anything.

我们可以用任何东西做到这一点。

In quantum mechanics, imagine that you look at a sock, but the sock is changing colors all the time.

在量子力学中，想象一下你看着一只袜子，但袜子一直在改变颜色。

So now you observe it is red, the other one is red.

所以现在你观察到它是红色的，另一个也是红色的。

I observe it is green, the other one is green.

我观察到它是绿色的，另一颗也是绿色的。

Okay, randomly.

好吧，随机的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So little bits of the universe are entangled.

宇宙的一小部分纠缠在一起。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Well, some people, and a friend of mine who's a Buddhist, claims that there is a whole religious or Buddhist way of saying that everything was entangled.

好吧，有些人和我的一个佛教徒朋友声称，有一种完整的宗教或佛教方式来表达一切都是纠缠在一起的。

Yes.

是的。

Originally, all atoms, all electrons, all elementary particles were entangled.

最初，所有原子、所有电子、所有基本粒子都是纠缠的。

Yes, because the universe started very tiny, and everything was entangled.

是的，因为宇宙一开始非常小，一切都是纠缠在一起的。

Okay, so you could imagine that the universe is entangled, so what happens here affects the other.

好吧，你可以想象宇宙是纠缠在一起的，所以这里发生的事情会影响另一个。

But the entanglement gets lost when perturbations and noise appears and so on.

但是当出现扰动和噪声等时，纠缠就会消失。

So we are not today entangled with, I don't know.

所以我们今天是不是纠缠不清，我不知道。

We don't think that we are entangled.

我们不认为我们纠缠在一起。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Some people think that-

有些人认为——

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Yes

是的

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

some people are entangled.

有些人很纠结。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Well, let's get to it, maybe-

好吧，让我们开始吧，也许——

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

But that's a whole, yeah.

但这是一个整体，是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

That's a whole thing.

这就是一整件事。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

That's a-

那是一个——

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

That's poetry.

这就是诗。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

That's poetry, exactly.

确切地说，这就是诗。

There's another example that brings us to a very salient aspect of my childhood, which is chaos theory.

还有另一个例子让我们想起了我童年时期一个非常突出的方面，那就是混沌理论。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Okay.

好的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right.

对。

So I'll say it so you don't have to.

所以我会这么说，这样你就不必这么做了。

You're one of the founders of chaos, or certain aspects of chaos theory.

您是混沌或混沌理论某些方面的创始人之一。

We'll talk about that.

我们会讨论这个。

But for those of us that grew up in the '80s and '90s, I was born in '75, who saw the movie "Jurassic Park," there's a moment in that movie where I think Jeff Goldblum is explaining, what is it?

但对于我们这些在 80 年代和 90 年代长大的人来说，我出生于 75 年代，看过电影《侏罗纪公园》，我认为杰夫·高布伦在电影中有一个时刻正在解释，这是什么？

Chaos theory, and maybe it was the butterfly flapping its wings-

混沌理论，也许是蝴蝶扇动翅膀——

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Right

右

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

in one location and impacting something someplace else.

在一个地方影响其他地方的事物。

For the poets in the world, right?

对于世界上的诗人来说，不是吗？

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

That was a very captivating example because I think the human brain can naturally understand that things around us, we can have an impact on them, and they can have an impact on us.

这是一个非常吸引人的例子，因为我认为人脑可以自然地理解我们周围的事物，我们可以对它们产生影响，它们也可以对我们产生影响。

But the notion that a small insect thousands of kilometers away can impact something that's going on more adjacent to us, it seems outrageous, sci-fi, but the notion that one thing impacts another and impacts another, that's pretty straightforward, right?

但是，数千公里外的一只小昆虫可以影响离我们更近的事物的想法，这似乎令人震惊，科幻小说，但一件事影响另一件事并影响另一件事的想法，这是非常简单的，对吧？

There's just a dominoing of the physical world.

这只是物质世界的主宰。

Chaos theory is different.

混沌理论则不同。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Okay, could you explain chaos?

好吧，你能解释一下混乱吗？

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And I'll just add one more thing just for context for you to, sort of the paints in the palette.

我将再添加一件事供您参考，即调色板中的颜料。

Around the same time, I remember the book "Chaos" coming out, and where there was a lot of excitement around chaos, and this was coming up.

大约在同一时间，我记得《混沌》这本书出版了，其中围绕着混乱有很多令人兴奋的事情，而这本书即将问世。

There was also a lot of discussion about fractals.

关于分形也有很多讨论。

The idea that when you zoom into things at a very, very small level, you start seeing some regularities.

这个想法是，当你在非常非常小的层面上放大事物时，你就会开始看到一些规律性。

Now we know this about crystal structures, right?

现在我们知道了晶体结构，对吧？

Like you put a drop of water under a-

就像你把一滴水放在-

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Yes

是的

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

high-powered microscope, you're going to see structure there.

高倍显微镜，你会看到那里的结构。

It's not random.

这不是随机的。

The angles are very-

角度非常——

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

consistent, at least around certain nodes, et cetera.

一致，至少在某些节点周围，等等。

So I think people love this idea that we have repeating patterns and numbers in nature, that things at a distance can impact us more closely.

所以我认为人们喜欢这个想法，即自然界中有重复的模式和数字，远处的事物可以更近距离地影响我们。

This is the kind of stuff that the non-physics brain can understand.

这是非物理大脑可以理解的东西。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And it does enchant, right?

它确实令人着迷，对吧？

We sort of poked at poetry.

我们有点在研究诗歌。

I love poetry, you love poetry.

我爱诗，你也爱诗。

But I think it enchants because I think humans are naturally interested in how the randomness of life might not be as random as it appears.

但我认为它很迷人，因为我认为人类天生对生命的随机性如何可能不像看起来那么随机感兴趣。

So, what is chaos?

那么，什么是混沌呢？

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Okay.

好的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Where does it exist in our lives?

它存在于我们生活的什么地方？

Not emotional chaos.

不是情绪混乱。

And what is the relationship between fractals and chaos, if any?

分形和混沌之间有什么关系（如果有的话）？

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Okay.

好的。

Let me say first of all about why chaos is what it is, and it's not quantum.

首先我要说一下为什么混沌是这样的，而且它不是量子的。

And there is quantum stories, and there is a quantum chaotic field, but I won't go into that.

还有量子故事，还有量子混沌场，但我不会详细讨论。

Chaos is a very interesting idea.

混沌是一个非常有趣的想法。

It flies against our intuitions.

它违背了我们的直觉。

Since the times of Newton, we know that if you give me the position and the velocity of an initial particle, I can use Newton's equations of motion to tell you where that particle is going to be anywhere-

自牛顿时代以来，我们知道，如果你给我一个初始粒子的位置和速度，我可以使用牛顿运动方程告诉你该粒子将在任何地方 -

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

...

...

with an incredible precision.

具有令人难以置信的精确度。

When we launch a rocket, we want to go to the moon, we can calculate and predict exactly where that rocket is going to be after so many hours, after so many days, and so on.

当我们发射火箭时，我们想去月球，我们可以准确地计算和预测火箭在这么多小时、这么多天等等之后将到达的位置。

Actually, we use the equations of motion to predict that trajectory, and it's a precise trajectory.

实际上，我们使用运动方程来预测该轨迹，并且它是一个精确的轨迹。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

This is how Elon was able to capture the rocket with the chopsticks recently.

这就是埃隆最近能够用筷子捕获火箭的方法。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Something of that sort, yeah.

类似的东西，是的。

Okay.

好的。

Now, the idea of chaos is, so that's okay, it works.

现在，混沌的想法是，所以没关系，它有效。

There are some cases where, let's assume, now I'm going to give you a simple example.

在某些情况下，让我们假设，现在我将给您一个简单的例子。

So I take a ball, a billiard ball on a billiard table.

所以我拿了一个球，台球桌上的一个台球。

I send it out, and at the moment, I can know exactly the position of velocity, I can tell you exactly where it's going to go.

我把它发出来，此刻我可以准确地知道速度的位置，我可以准确地告诉你它要去哪里。

Chaos says that a tiny difference in the initial position or velocity of that ball will take it very far from the other one, which is ridiculous.

混沌说，该球的初始位置或速度的微小差异都会使其与另一个球相距很远，这是荒谬的。

If I tell you that two cars start at exactly the same speed, in the same position, and one of them has a little more, they'll stay parallel to each other.

如果我告诉你两辆车以完全相同的速度、相同的位置起步，其中一辆的速度稍快一些，它们将保持彼此平行。

In some systems, and I'll tell you in a second, that actually those two trajectories diverge completely.

在某些系统中，我稍后会告诉您，实际上这两个轨迹完全不同。

So it's what we call sensitivity to initial conditions.

这就是我们所说的对初始条件的敏感性。

Okay.

好的。

That's what chaos is all about in classical mechanics.

这就是经典力学中的混沌。

What is really weird about it is that it happens in systems that also undergo friction.

真正奇怪的是它发生在也经历摩擦的系统中。

Because let me give you an example that I used to teach chaos at Stanford for many years.

因为让我给你举一个我在斯坦福大学教授混沌学多年的例子。

So imagine I give you a beaker full of molasses, and you take a very big stainless steel ball, and you just throw it into the thing.

想象一下，我给你一个装满糖蜜的烧杯，你拿一个很大的不锈钢球，然后把它扔进里面。

Well, after a while, it will just drift with a thing, it's called Stokes' law, because friction slows it down, and it just goes.

好吧，过了一段时间，它就会随着物体漂移，这就是所谓的斯托克斯定律，因为摩擦力会减慢它的速度，然后它就会移动。

And now you throw another one from another altitude, and all of them are going to do exactly the same.

现在你从另一个高度扔另一个，所有的东西都会做同样的事情。

Some systems that are chaotic do exactly the opposite.

一些混沌系统的行为恰恰相反。

Even though there is friction, everything tends to just slow it down.

尽管存在摩擦，但一切都会减慢速度。

They just keep going far apart from each other.

他们只是不断地远离彼此。

Amazing thing.

令人惊奇的事情。

So that's chaos.

所以这就是混乱。

Okay.

好的。

And I can tell you a little bit why I got so involved in this and the work we did.

我可以告诉你一些为什么我如此参与这个以及我们所做的工作。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Does chaos exist in every physical system?

每个物理系统中都存在混沌吗？

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Mostly, yes.

大多数情况下，是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Maybe even in neurons or the brain.

甚至可能在神经元或大脑中。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Oh, yes.

哦，是的。

Absolutely.

绝对地。

This is why I don't want to get into a controversy here about issues of whether we live deterministic lives or not, but if things that are a little bit random and so on, or even just a tiny difference in initial conditions can take you to very different outcomes.

这就是为什么我不想在这里陷入关于我们是否过着确定性生活的争论，但是如果事情有点随机等等，或者甚至只是初始条件的微小差异，就会导致非常不同的结果。

But this, we're not talking about many particles, we are talking two.

但是，我们谈论的不是很多粒子，而是两个。

Okay.

好的。

So that's one.

这就是其中之一。

Now, fractals is a different story that comes out of a guy who I knew very well, Benoit Mandelbrot, a very funny character, brilliant too, but very strange, who discovered that certain things are so similar that if you look at the coast of Britain, he used to say that, you look at the coast of Britain and you say, "Okay, tell me, how long is the coast of Britain?" You go with a meter and you measure it.

现在，分形是一个不同的故事，来自一个我非常熟悉的人，伯努瓦·曼德尔布罗特，一个非常有趣的人物，也很聪明，但很奇怪，他发现某些东西是如此相似，如果你看看英国的海岸，他过去常这样说，你看着英国的海岸，你说，“好吧，告诉我，英国的海岸有多长？”你用仪表去测量它。

Now, suppose that the meter that you're using now can measure up to an inch.

现在，假设您现在使用的仪表可以测量一英寸。

Well, you're going to get a different distance even though you are adding the same, because there are all these little things in the coast of Britain that are essentially so similar that add a tremendous amount of length.

好吧，即使您添加相同的距离，您也会得到不同的距离，因为英国海岸的所有这些小东西本质上非常相似，从而增加了巨大的长度。

That's what a fractal is all about.

这就是分形的意义所在。

These are structures that are not just a simple line, but they have all these other things.

这些结构不仅仅是一条简单的线条，而且还具有所有其他东西。

Okay.

好的。

He thought that it was a whole new geometry.

他认为这是一种全新的几何学。

As a matter of fact, and I tell you this because I knew Benoit very well, I met him through a talk that I gave on chaos.

事实上，我告诉你这些是因为我非常了解伯努瓦，我是通过一次关于混乱的演讲认识了他。

He used to hang out with chaos physicists.

他曾经和混沌物理学家一起出去玩。

He was a mathematician, brilliant man in many ways.

他是一位数学家，在很多方面都很聪明。

I was having dinner with him in Copenhagen in a restaurant.

我和他在哥本哈根的一家餐馆共进晚餐。

And the very pretty waitress came to us and so on, and served us, and we were talking.

非常漂亮的女服务员来到我们身边，为我们服务，我们正在聊天。

He's a Frenchman.

他是法国人。

He spoke with a very heavy French accent.

他说话带有很重的法国口音。

And so she says something, "What are you doing here?" He says, "We are at a conference, but I'm not just as a conference.

于是她说道：“你在这里做什么？”他说：“我们正在参加一个会议，但我不仅仅是作为一个会议。

I'm a very special man," he said to her.

我是一个非常特别的人，”他对她说。

And she said, "How come?" And he says, "Do you know who Euclid was?" And she says, "Sort of." She said, "Well, he was a Greek man who invented geometry." And he said, "Oh, well, guess what?

她说：“怎么会呢？”他说：“你知道欧几里得是谁吗？”她说：“有点像。”她说：“嗯，他是一位发明了几何学的希腊人。”他说：“哦，好吧，你猜怎么着？

I am better than Euclid.

我比欧几里得更好。

I invented a different geometry."

我发明了一种不同的几何形状。”

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

He said that?

他这么说？

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Yeah.

是的。

He said that.

他这么说。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Points to the waitress in Denmark that knew about Euclid.

指着丹麦那位了解欧几里得的女服务员。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

That was very odd.

这很奇怪。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

The Danes are smart.

丹麦人很聪明。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Okay.

好的。

That was very funny that he would talk about it.

他会谈论这件事真是太有趣了。

So he would give a talk, and he would say, "My equations can generate anything." Indeed, he could generate any patterns.

所以他会发表演讲，他会说：“我的方程可以产生任何东西。”事实上，他可以生成任何模式。

So he would say, "You want a mountain?

所以他会说：“你想要一座山吗？

Here goes a mountain." And you see a mountain, beautiful graphs and so on.

这里有一座山。”你会看到一座山、美丽的图表等等。

So self-similarity is a very powerful idea in physics because it allows you that if you know something at a certain scale, you can predict what it's going to be at different other scales.

因此，自相似性在物理学中是一个非常强大的想法，因为它允许你如果你知道某个尺度上的某些东西，你就可以预测它在不同其他尺度上的情况。

And I use that.

我用它。

But chaos and fractals are not always the same.

但混沌和分形并不总是相同的。

As he used to say, because he didn't like physicists, because we never liked his talks.

正如他常说的，因为他不喜欢物理学家，因为我们从来不喜欢他的演讲。

We always said, "Okay, so you're telling us that things are..." He used to say, "I'm not interested in pulleys.

我们总是说，“好吧，所以你告诉我们事情是……”他常常说，“我对滑轮不感兴趣。

I'm not interested in things that move things up and down," he used to say.

我对那些让事情上下波动的事情不感兴趣，”他过去常说。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

He's thinking about elementary physics class.

他正在考虑基础物理课。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Something of that sort.

类似的东西。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Yeah.

是的。

So, but fractals are very interesting because these are so similar structures.

所以，分形非常有趣，因为它们的结构非常相似。

At all levels, they look the same.

在各个层面上，它们看起来都是一样的。

You look at it big, you look at small, they have the same type of geometric behavior.

你从大处看，从小处看，它们具有相同类型的几何行为。

Chaos is all about dynamics, how things evolve in time.

混沌与动态有关，即事物如何随时间演变。

Okay?

好的？

And chaotic systems, they tend to diverge from each other for a long, long time.

而混沌系统，它们往往会在很长一段时间内相互分歧。

The man who invented the idea of the butterfly effect was a man called Ed Lorenz, who was a very famous meteorologist at MIT, and he was solving the equations of the atmosphere, trying to predict the behavior of the weather.

发明蝴蝶效应概念的人叫艾德·洛伦兹，他是麻省理工学院非常著名的气象学家，他正在解决大气方程，试图预测天气的行为。

And he noticed in these very old computers and so on, that sometimes he would get different behaviors.

他注意到在这些非常旧的计算机等中，有时他会得到不同的行为。

He thought there was something wrong about the computer, and he discovered that the only thing that was wrong was that the initial conditions that he was giving them was very tiny different, and he would get different things.

他认为计算机出了问题，他发现唯一的问题是他给他们的初始条件有很小的不同，他会得到不同的结果。

From there, he went into that.

从那时起，他开始涉足这一领域。

I mean, there are ideas that are very beautiful, like strange attractors and so on.

我的意思是，有些想法非常美丽，比如奇怪的吸引子等等。

I mean, we don't have to go into that.

我的意思是，我们不必深究这个问题。

But so chaos is really a field that essentially explains why things that seem to be simply explained by classical physics tend to diverge from each other, and they give rise to random outcomes.

但混沌确实是一个从本质上解释了为什么看似可以用经典物理学简单解释的事物往往彼此背离的领域，并且它们会产生随机结果。

That's the important thing.

这才是重要的事情。

You can use chaos in order to generate random numbers.

您可以使用混沌来生成随机数。

You can use chaos to generate random patterns.

您可以使用混沌来生成随机模式。

I've done that.

我已经这么做了。

It's very simple.

这很简单。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And chaos exists at the quantum level and the macro level?

混沌存在于量子层面和宏观层面吗？

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Okay, so I was working at some there, and I don't think it's interesting how I got into this because I was doing something else, and suddenly I decided I was going to do this, and I really started going very fast at this.

好吧，所以我在那里工作，我不认为我是如何进入这个领域的，因为我正在做其他事情，突然我决定我要这样做，而且我真的开始非常快地做这件事。

But then I had a very bright student, you met, Ted Hoag, and we decided, let's see if we can see chaos in quantum mechanics.

但后来我有一个非常聪明的学生，你遇到了，特德霍格，我们决定，让我们看看是否可以看到量子力学中的混沌。

And we started doing it, and there were a couple of papers by the Russians actually showing that this was the case, and we discovered that it was not the case.

我们开始这样做，俄罗斯人发表了几篇论文，实际上表明情况确实如此，但我们发现事实并非如此。

We actually proved that quantum systems are not chaotic.

我们实际上证明了量子系统不是混沌的。

There's some kind of interference between them and so on, that makes them recur back and forth periodically.

它们之间存在某种干扰等等，使得它们周期性地来回重复。

They are not chaotic.

他们并不混乱。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Why do I find that reassuring, that if you get down to a small enough level, that you can really predict what's going to happen as opposed to small perturbations leading to big-

为什么我觉得令人放心，如果你降低到足够小的水平，你可以真正预测将要发生的事情，而不是小扰动导致大-

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Right

右

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

differences in outcome?

结果的差异？

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Yes.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

That was the whole point.

这就是重点。

We discovered that quantum mechanics, there are waves and interferences and so on that make the system recur.

我们发现量子力学，有波、有干涉等等使得系统重复出现。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

As a matter of fact, I had quite an exchange with Dick Feynman about it.

事实上，我和迪克·费曼就这个问题进行了相当多的交流。

When I met him, I went to give a talk at Caltech, and I was in his office, and he said, "So what are you going to talk about?

当我见到他时，我去加州理工学院演讲，当时我在他的办公室里，他说：“那么你要谈什么呢？

Because I don't want to waste my time." And I said, "About chaos." He said, "Okay." I said, "Some things are very, in particular, in quantum mechanics." So I'm smiling because he was so sharp and so on.

因为我不想浪费时间。”我说，“关于混乱。”他说：“好吧。”我说：“有些东西在量子力学中尤其重要。”所以我笑了，因为他太敏锐了等等。

So he said, "Okay, give me the problem." And he said, "What is it?" I said, "Well, okay, I give you an electron, and you have it in a potential, and I give you a laser." And he says, "The laser inside or outside the apparatus?" Just like that.

于是他说：“好吧，把问题交给我吧。”他说：“那是什么？”我说：“好吧，我给你一个电子，你有一个电子，我给你一个激光。”他说：“激光是装置内部还是外部？”就这样。

So I said, "Outside." "So you turn on the laser?" I said...

于是我说：“在外面。” “那你打开激光吗？”我说……

"So what happens to the electron?" And I knew he was going to give me the answer that was already in the literature, but he appeared to be thinking.

“那么电子会发生什么？”我知道他会给我文献中已有的答案，但他似乎正在思考。

Well, he stood up and walked around, and was making all sorts of noises.

好吧，他站起来走来走去，发出各种声音。

And then suddenly he says, "The energy grows linearly in time." I said, "No, it doesn't." "How do you know?" I said, "We measure it.

然后他突然说：“能量随时间线性增长。”我说：“不，不是这样。” “你怎么知道？”我说：“我们测量它。

I can show you," and so on.

我可以给你看，”等等。

And he was very impressed because that means that there is no chaos, actually.

他印象非常深刻，因为这意味着实际上没有混乱。

Then he said, "Oh, you know why I got it wrong." I said, "No, because I wasn't thinking in colors, only black and white."

然后他说：“哦，你知道我为什么错了。”我说：“不，因为我思考的不是颜色，而是黑白。”

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Was he trying to be funny?

他是想搞笑吗？

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Of course.

当然。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

He was always funny.

他总是很有趣。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Let's talk about Feynman and Gell-Mann and Mandelbrot and all the rest as a collection for a moment.

让我们暂时将费曼、盖尔曼、曼德尔布罗特以及所有其他人作为一个集合来谈谈。

One of the great gifts of my life has been that you would talk about scientists.

我一生中最伟大的礼物之一就是你会谈论科学家。

It really enchants me.

这真的让我着迷。

I'm so delighted when I hear it.

我一听就很高兴。

I grew up hearing the stories about these scientists.

我是听着这些科学家的故事长大的。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And not athletes.

而不是运动员。

Which is great, but scientists.

这很棒，但是科学家们。

And it seems to me that every time you talk about another scientist, you both revere the work they did.

在我看来，每次你们谈论另一位科学家时，你们都会尊敬他们所做的工作。

You see something unique about them.

你会看到他们的独特之处。

And something I learned very early on, and I've certainly internalized, is, and forgive me because I'm assuming here, is that there's a certain aspect of their quirkiness or something about them, to take them seriously but not too seriously.

我很早就学到的东西，而且我当然已经内化了，请原谅我，因为我在这里假设，是他们的怪癖或关于他们的某些方面，要认真对待他们，但不要太认真。

I never learned to assume that because somebody was a Nobel Prize winner, that they were perfect, for instance.

例如，我从来没有学会因为某人是诺贝尔奖获得者而假设他们是完美的。

You would tell me Einstein had, he was amazing.

你会告诉我爱因斯坦有，他太棒了。

There was relativity, the patent office, all this stuff, and he had all these problems with women.

有相对论，专利局，所有这些东西，他在女人身上遇到了所有这些问题。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Oh, yes.

哦，是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And I read the books, right?

我也读过书，对吗？

Or this person, I won't name names because these people are still alive.

或者这个人，我不会点名，因为这些人还活着。

Silicon Valley.

硅谷。

Actually, when you and I used to take walks when I was a postdoc, we used to see Jobs-

事实上，当我还是一名博士后时，当你和我散步时，我们常常看到乔布斯——

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

walking around, right?

到处走走吧？

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

No shoes.

没有鞋子。

He had feet, no shoes.

他有脚，没有鞋。

And you would say, "He's amazing.

你会说：“他太棒了。

This guy's brilliant." But then we would chuckle about some of the-

这家伙很聪明。”但随后我们会嘲笑一些——

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

the Jobisms.

就业主义。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And so one thing that I learned was that scientists are just people.

所以我学到的一件事是科学家也是人。

That these founders, the creators, they're just people, and they often have very challenging areas of their life as well.

这些创始人、创造者只是普通人，他们的生活中也常常面临着非常具有挑战性的领域。

They're not perfect.

他们并不完美。

They're not gods.

他们不是神。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Some of them have almost godlike access to the universe and understanding it.

他们中的一些人几乎可以像神一样进入宇宙并理解它。

But it seems to me that you hold people up for their contributions, but you never actually, thank goodness, put people on a pedestal to the point where you're like, "This person is spectacular in every way." And I'm not saying you cut them down to size, but I learned very-- And this has served me well in my life in now public-facing or on Twitter.

但在我看来，你会因为人们的贡献而捧场，但谢天谢地，你实际上从来没有把人们推崇到让你觉得“这个人在各方面都很出色”的地步。我并不是说你把它们缩小了，但我学到了很多——这对我现在面向公众或推特的生活很有帮助。

Like if I make a mistake and someone comes at me, it's somebody that I respect.

就像如果我犯了一个错误，有人来攻击我，那是我尊重的人。

I go, "Ugh." But then I remember, this person has a lot of issues in certain domains of their life.

我说：“呃。”但后来我想起来，这个人在生活的某些领域有很多问题。

So, to realize that we're all human, this notion of none of us are gods.

所以，要认识到我们都是人，我们都不是神。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And yet there are people like Feynman, like Gell-Mann, like Einstein, who have almost supernatural levels of ability.

然而，还有像费曼、盖尔曼、爱因斯坦这样的人，他们拥有近乎超自然的能力。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Right.

对。

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

So what's that about?

那是关于什么的？

How do you hold knowledge, insight, and stature in your mind alongside the humanness, the inherent flawed nature of all of us?

你如何将知识、洞察力和地位与人性、我们所有人固有的缺陷本质一起保留在你的头脑中？

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Well, okay.

好吧，好吧。

It's complicated.

情况很复杂。

There are many ways to think about it.

有很多方法可以思考这个问题。

In some of these names, for instance, these people are built into giants by the media, too.

例如，在其中一些名字中，这些人也被媒体塑造成巨人。

I mean, Feynman, if you go to Quora and so on, everybody's asking, what did Feynman do?

我的意思是，费曼，如果你去 Quora 等网站，每个人都会问，费曼做了什么？

What was he wearing, and so on, as if he was a god.

他穿什么什么什么的，就好像他是神一样。

Obviously, what he did in physics.

显然，他在物理学上做了什么。

And I interrupt myself here because he really worked very hard, very hard, according to Gell-Mann in particular, to creating a myth about himself.

我在这里打断一下自己，因为他真的非常努力，特别是根据盖尔曼的说法，为了创造一个关于自己的神话。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

He worked very hard.

他工作非常努力。

When I met him, I can even tell you the anecdotes.

当我遇见他时，我什至可以告诉你那些轶事。

I only met him for an hour, but he was obviously the kind of man that wanted to leave an impression with you.

虽然我们只认识了一个小时，但他显然是那种想要给你留下印象的人。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

R-rated and X-rated anecdotes.

R 级和 X 级轶事。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Exactly.

正是如此。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

But I remember the good one was that I was going to give a colloquium, and he said, "Should I come?" I say, "I think you should come." And then he said, "Well, then I'm going to give you a piece of advice.

但我记得一件好事是我要举办一场座谈会，他说：“我应该来吗？”我说：“我想你应该来。”然后他说：“好吧，那我给你一个建议。

Do not look at me, because if you look at me during your talk, you're going to get confused," and so on.

不要看着我，因为如果你在演讲时看着我，你会感到困惑，”等等。

And actually, that's exactly what happened.

事实上，这正是发生的事情。

I started the colloquium at Caltech, the Marine boot camp of science, and there I am starting to talk, and suddenly I said, instead of saying the next hour, I said something like in the next week or something as so, because there he was, and then he started saying, "Look elsewhere." That kind of guy.

我在加州理工学院（海军陆战队科学训练营）开始了座谈会，在那里我开始讲话，突然我说，我没有说下一个小时，而是说下周之类的东西，因为他在那里，然后他开始说，“看看别处。”就是这样的一个人。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

For anyone who hasn't lectured, there's a tendency sometimes when one is going fast to fill in without thinking.

对于没有讲过课的人来说，有时会不假思索地快速补充内容。

It's just something that-

这只是一些东西——

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

one learns.

一个人学习。

I've had to learn it the hard way when we missed it in the recording and this kind of thing.

当我们在录音和类似的事情中错过它时，我不得不以艰难的方式学习它。

It's a humbling moment.

这是一个令人谦卑的时刻。

But yeah, I think that Feynman would've been canceled by the standards of the last few years.

但是，是的，我认为按照过去几年的标准，费曼可能已经被取消了。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Oh, he was.

哦，他是。

I took even my father once to a lecture he was giving in San Francisco, and he was giving a beautiful lecture to, I don't know, get some award for teaching and so on, and suddenly a bunch of women walked into the front of the big room, and they started coming.

我什至带我父亲去旧金山听过一次演讲，他正在做一场精彩的演讲，我不知道，要获得一些教学奖等等，突然一群女人走进大房间的前面，她们开始来。

Because it turns out that in one of his lectures, he said something like, "If you do it this way, you're as bad as a woman's driver."

因为事实证明，在他的一次演讲中，他说过这样的话：“如果你这样做，你就和女司机一样糟糕。”

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Feynman said that.

费曼如是说。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Feynman said that.

费曼如是说。

And then all these women were saying things, and then he said, "I love women.

然后所有这些女人都在说话，然后他说：“我爱女人。

They're all smart." He was very clever the way-

他们都很聪明。”他非常聪明——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

So he would've lost his job by the standards of-

所以按照以下标准他会丢掉工作——

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Might be

可能是

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

recent years.

近年来。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Okay.

好的。

But regardless of that, because I really want to go back to this issue, people like Murray Gell-Mann, to me, he was the most intimidating person I've ever met.

但无论如何，因为我真的很想回到这个问题，像默里·盖尔曼这样的人，对我来说，他是我见过的最令人生畏的人。

Now, eventually, I got to know him because he liked what I was doing, and as a matter of fact, he and I organized a workshop, an incredibly luxurious place in France, at the estate of Madame Schlumberger, one of the oil people.

现在，最终，我认识了他，因为他喜欢我所做的事情，事实上，他和我组织了一个研讨会，这是法国一个极其豪华的地方，在石油人之一斯伦贝谢夫人的庄园里。

Actually, it was an incredible meeting that he and I organized.

事实上，这是我和他组织的一次令人难以置信的会议。

So I got to know him a little bit personally, and all he was complaining at that time is he couldn't get a date.

所以我个人对他有了一点了解，当时他唯一抱怨的是他找不到约会对象。

He was a widow, and he wanted to...

他是一个寡妇，他想...

Women were intimidated by him, too.

女人也被他吓倒了。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Well, as I recall, because I remember meeting him when I was a kid, and we both shared a love of birds, but he was perhaps one of the world's most obnoxious people.

嗯，我记得，因为我记得小时候见过他，我们都喜欢鸟类，但他可能是世界上最令人讨厌的人之一。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I mean, he was like-

我的意思是，他就像——

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

But you impressed him.

但你给他留下了深刻的印象。

As a matter of fact, I don't know if you want me to remind you of this, because we had two stories there.

事实上，我不知道你是否想让我提醒你这一点，因为我们有两个故事。

Your mother and I were taking a hike in Aspen, and we saw a bird that looked incredibly complicated and so on.

你妈妈和我在阿斯彭徒步旅行，我们看到了一只看起来非常复杂的鸟等等。

So we looked at the bird.

于是我们就看着那只鸟。

The next day, we went to him because he loved birds, as you know, and I said, "I saw a most unusual bird." He said, "Describe it." So I da, da, da, and he gave me the name in Latin of the bird, and then he said, "That's the most common bird in the Bay Area of California.

第二天，我们去找他，因为你知道，他喜欢鸟类，我说：“我看到了一只最不寻常的鸟。”他说：“描述一下。”于是我哒，哒，哒，他给了我这只鸟的拉丁文名字，然后他说：“这是加州湾区最常见的鸟。

As a matter of fact, you should see it when you pick up the newspaper next time you're there." And indeed, two weeks later, I went to pick up "The New York Times," and there was the bird.

事实上，你下次去那里拿起报纸时应该会看到它。”事实上，两周后，我去拿起《纽约时报》，发现了那只鸟。

But at the same time, I said, "Andrew likes birds," and he asked you, "What is your favorite bird?" And you said, "The rainbow lorikeet."

但同时，我说，“安德鲁喜欢鸟，”他问你，“你最喜欢什么鸟？”你说：“彩虹澳洲鹦鹉。”

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Still is.

仍然是。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

And he said, "This kid knows.

他说：“这孩子知道。

This kid knows." He said, "I'll never forget that."

这小子知道。”他说：“我永远不会忘记这一点。”

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I know my birds.

我了解我的鸟儿。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Huh?

啊？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I know my birds.

我了解我的鸟儿。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

No, but it's amazing.

不，但这太神奇了。

Because if you could have said a parrot, he would have not been very interested.

因为如果你可以说是一只鹦鹉，他就不会很感兴趣。

Okay.

好的。

But he was intimidating, very intimidating, and he was nasty, too, when he wanted to be.

但他令人生畏，非常令人生畏，而且只要他愿意，他也会变得令人讨厌。

So he enjoyed the power he had.

所以他很享受自己所拥有的权力。

I was a member of the board of the directors of the Aspen Center, so we had to decide what programs we had every summer, and he would come to me and say, "Whom do you want me to insult today?"

我是阿斯彭中心的董事会成员，所以我们必须决定每年夏天我们有什么节目，他会来找我说，“你想让我今天侮辱谁？”

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Wow.

哇。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

He had all sorts of very funny names for all sorts of physicists and so on.

他为各种物理学家起了各种非常有趣的名字等等。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

The downside of people like that in science, because I've known some, too.

像这样的人在科学领域的缺点，因为我也认识一些。

There's a very famous neuroscientist, now in his 70s, who has a Nobel Prize, who also is known for generating anecdotes about himself.

有一位非常著名的神经科学家，现年 70 多岁，获得了诺贝尔奖，也因讲述自己的轶事而闻名。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And in recent years, because of political correctness, wokeism, and so forth, tends to do that less because he has sort of a trucker's mouth.

近年来，由于政治正确、唤醒主义等原因，他往往很少这样做，因为他有一张卡车司机的嘴。

Brilliant guy, but is kind of known for being outrageous and trying to create tales about themselves.

才华横溢的家伙，但以粗暴和试图编造关于自己的故事而闻名。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

This is something that scientists do.

这是科学家所做的事情。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Right.

正确的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right?

对吗？

In order to maintain their legacy.

为了维护他们的遗产。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Also to feel good about themselves.

也让自己自我感觉良好。

By the way, Gell-Mann, I worked with him.

顺便说一句，盖尔曼，我和他一起工作过。

He was incredible, and the way he would interrupt people and so on.

他令人难以置信，还有他打断别人的方式等等。

And there are two things I can tell you that are interesting.

我可以告诉你两件有趣的事情。

Once, he was announcing some new results.

有一次，他宣布了一些新结果。

He was working on this whole thing on quarks and other things, and actually it was string theory.

他正在研究夸克和其他事物，实际上这是弦理论。

And he announced a seminar, and everybody goes into the garden.

他宣布召开研讨会，每个人都走进花园。

The seminars are nice.

研讨会很好。

I need to remind the audience perhaps here that the Aspen Center for Music was right next to the tent.

也许我需要提醒观众，阿斯彭音乐中心就在帐篷旁边。

They were rehearsing.

他们正在排练。

So the seminar was supposed to start at 3:00, and there's Gell-Mann comes with all his notes under his arm.

研讨会原定于 3:00 开始，盖尔曼腋下夹着所有笔记来了。

He always had notes, walking pace, and nothing happened.

他总是有笔记，有步行速度，但什么也没发生。

And suddenly, they were rehearsing Beethoven's Fifth Symphony, which just starts, da, da, da, dan.

突然，他们正在排练贝多芬的第五交响曲，音乐刚刚开始，哒，哒，哒，哒。

And then you heard the sound, and then he started.

然后你听到了声音，然后他开始了。

"I will now tell you about a new theory of how the universe works." That's the way he spoke.

“我现在将告诉你关于宇宙如何运作的新理论。”他就是这样说话的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So, what strikes me is that these people take themselves very seriously.

所以，让我印象深刻的是这些人非常重视自己。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Absolutely.

绝对的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Do you think that's important in life?

你认为这对生活重要吗？

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

I don't.

我不知道。

As you know, I like to have a good sense of humor about myself and be self-deprecating.

如您所知，我喜欢对自己保持良好的幽默感并进行自嘲。

I think some people have issues, and they do that.

我认为有些人有问题，他们就是这么做的。

It all depends on how you see things.

这完全取决于你如何看待事物。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, Matina.

我想稍微休息一下，并向我们的赞助商之一马蒂娜表示感谢。

Matina makes loose-leaf and ready-to-drink yerba mate.

Matina 生产散叶和即饮马黛茶。

Now, I've often discussed yerba mate's benefits, such as regulating blood sugar, its high antioxidant content, the ways it can improve digestion, and its possible neuroprotective effects.

现在，我经常讨论马黛茶的好处，例如调节血糖、其高抗氧化剂含量、改善消化的方式以及可能的神经保护作用。

It's for all those reasons that yerba mate is my preferred source of caffeine.

出于所有这些原因，马黛茶是我首选的咖啡因来源。

I also drink yerba mate because I simply love the taste.

我也喝马黛茶，因为我就是喜欢它的味道。

And while there are a lot of different choices out there of yerba mate drinks, my personal favorite, far and away, is Matina.

虽然马黛茶饮料有很多不同的选择，但我个人最喜欢的是 Matina。

It's made of the highest quality ingredients, which gives it a really rich but also a really clean taste, so none of that tannic aftertaste.

它采用最优质的原料制成，味道非常浓郁，但味道也非常干净，所以没有单宁的余味。

In fact, given how amazing Matina tastes and their commitment to quality, I decided to become a part-owner in the company earlier this year.

事实上，考虑到 Matina 的美味和他们对质量的承诺，我决定在今年早些时候成为该公司的股东。

In particular, I love the taste of Matina's canned zero-sugar cold brew yerba mate, which I personally helped develop.

我特别喜欢马蒂纳罐装零糖冷萃马黛茶的味道，这是我亲自帮助开发的。

I drink at least three cans of those a day now.

我现在每天至少喝三罐。

I also love their loose-leaf Matina, which I drink every morning from the gourd.

我也喜欢他们的活叶马蒂娜，我每天早上都从葫芦里喝。

So, I add hot water and sip on that thing, and I'll have some cold brews throughout the morning and early afternoon.

所以，我加了热水，喝了一口，整个早上和下午早些时候我都会喝一些冷萃咖啡。

I find it gives me terrific energy all day long, and I'm able to fall asleep perfectly well at night, no problems.

我发现它一整天都给我带来巨大的能量，而且我晚上能够睡得很好，没有任何问题。

If you'd like to try Matina, you can go to drinkmatina.com/huberman.

如果您想尝试 Matina，可以访问 Drinkmatina.com/huberman。

Right now, Matina is offering a free one-pound bag of loose-leaf yerba mate tea and free shipping with the purchase of two cases of their cold brew yerba mate.

现在，Matina 提供一袋免费的一磅散叶马黛茶，购买两箱冷泡马黛茶可免运费。

Again, that's drinkmatina.com/huberman to get a free bag of yerba mate loose-leaf tea and free shipping.

再次强调，访问 Drinkmatina.com/huberman 可免费获得一袋马黛茶散叶茶并免运费。

Let me ask you about this.

让我问你这个问题。

So, further down my list of things I wanted to talk to you about is that you've always loved, it's clear from a young age, high-level concepts-

所以，我想和你谈的事情清单的最下面是你一直喜欢的，从年轻的时候就很明显，高层次的概念——

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

deep concepts, order in the universe, working on hard problems.

深刻的概念、宇宙的秩序、解决难题。

You just filed another patent.

您刚刚申请了另一项专利。

As long as I've known you, you've been pursuing some new area of knowledge or implementation of knowledge.

自从我认识你以来，你就一直在追求一些新的知识领域或知识的应用。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And yet you, like your father, I know you delight in everyday things.

然而，就像你的父亲一样，我知道你喜欢日常事物。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Since I was a kid, you've taken a walk after dinner.

从小到大，饭后都会出去散步。

You bike to work if you can that day because of the weather.

由于天气原因，如果那天可以的话，你会骑自行车去上班。

You love a really good espresso, a really good meal.

您喜欢一杯非常好的浓缩咖啡，一顿非常美味的饭菜。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

The high and the low are checked-off boxes for you.

高点和低点已为您勾选。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right.

对。

That's different, I think, than the way most people think about scientists, especially theoreticians.

我认为，这与大多数人对科学家、尤其是理论家的看法不同。

Theorists, excuse me.

理论家们，请原谅。

Which one is it, theoreticians or theorists?

理论家和理论家是哪一个？

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Theorists, they say, yeah.

理论家们说，是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Theorists.

理论家。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

That we assume the academics that are always somewhere else, like they're up here, they're not grounded, they're not feet on the ground.

我们假设学者总是在其他地方，就像他们在这里一样，他们不接地气，他们不脚踏实地。

But you like everyday things.

但你喜欢日常的事物。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Oh, absolutely.

哦，绝对是。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You're very much like-

你很像——

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

where we're going to eat dinner tonight is every bit as important as this-

今晚我们去哪儿吃晚饭和这个一样重要——

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Absolutely

绝对

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

conversation about relativity.

关于相对论的对话。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Absolutely.

绝对的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

I think that there is a myth that sometimes gets perpetuated at universities.

我认为有一个神话有时会在大学里流传下去。

My first meeting with my advisor when I got to University of Pennsylvania, he said, "I want you to know one thing.

当我到达宾夕法尼亚大学时，我第一次见到我的导师，他说：“我想让你知道一件事。

You're going to live like a monk." I said, "What does that mean?

你会像和尚一样生活。”我说：“这是什么意思？

No fun?

不好玩吗？

Nothing?" "You're going to work.

没什么？” “你要去工作了。

I want you to work.

我要你工作。

You're getting paid to do something." I was so scared.

你做某事就会得到报酬。”我很害怕。

And then I told him that on weekends, I had to escape to New York City to take a walk in Central Park and look at nice things, and I always enjoyed the good things of life, and at that time, I couldn't afford them, but that doesn't mean that I didn't enjoy them.

然后我告诉他，周末我必须逃到纽约去中央公园散步，看看美好的事物，我总是享受生活中的美好事物，当时我买不起，但这并不意味着我不喜欢它们。

And I do believe that I inherited this from my father, a tremendous enjoyment of life in general.

我确实相信我从父亲那里继承了这一点，这是一种对生活的巨大享受。

And yes, I am very physical and tactile about things.

是的，我对事物的身体和触觉非常敏感。

I like to surround myself with things that are beautiful.

我喜欢让自己周围都是美丽的事物。

I enjoy, as you said, good meals and the daily things about life.

正如你所说，我喜欢美味的饭菜和日常生活中的事情。

I'm not just living in some stratosphere and not being able to enjoy a meal I'm having, and so on.

我不只是生活在某个平流层而无法享受我正在吃的饭菜，等等。

No, the opposite.

不，相反。

And yes, in that sense, I am very much like that.

是的，从这个意义上说，我非常喜欢那样。

And Marie's the same way, and so that's why we enjoy that.

玛丽也是如此，所以这就是为什么我们喜欢这样。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Your wife.

你的妻子。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Yeah, my wife, sorry.

是的，我的妻子，对不起。

Yes.

是的。

We really enjoy, she in particular, being Danish, they have this idea of slow eating and enjoying the good things of life, and I'm very much like that.

我们真的很喜欢，尤其是她，作为丹麦人，他们有慢食和享受生活美好事物的想法，我非常喜欢。

Yes, very much.

是的，非常喜欢。

I don't feel guilty about it.

我对此并不感到内疚。

If I can afford certain-

如果我能负担得起某些——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Nor should you.

你也不应该。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Huh?

啊？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Nor should you.

你也不应该。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Well, there is a certain aesthetic component to science, and the idea that they sell you that Einstein didn't care about anything.

嗯，科学有一定的美学成分，他们向你推销爱因斯坦不关心任何事情。

Actually, if you look at the negotiations that Einstein had with the Institute for Advanced Studies for salaries, you'll see that he really cared a lot about these things, too.

其实你看看爱因斯坦和高等研究院关于工资的谈判，你就会发现他也确实很关心这些事情。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Oh, so our notion of him as it was just science, and he had no interest in material things is false?

哦，那么我们对他的看法是，他只是科学，他对物质事物没有兴趣，这是错误的吗？

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Right.

对。

Yes.

是的。

I had an uncle, actually, Hector's father.

事实上，我有一个叔叔，赫克托的父亲。

There was a branch of the family that was very much into culture.

家族中有一个分支非常热衷于文化。

They had beautiful collections of paintings and so on.

他们有美丽的绘画收藏等等。

And once, I was what, 14 or so, and I remember at a party, we had big social parties in my parents' house, and he was lecturing me that I should never care about anything but truth and concepts and so on.

有一次，我大概14岁左右，我记得在一次聚会上，我们在我父母家里举办了大型社交聚会，他教导我，除了真理和概念等等之外，我永远不应该关心任何事情。

I was a little bit scared.

我有点害怕。

I wanted to enjoy life as well, okay?

我也想享受生活，可以吗？

So, it was a little bit complicated.

所以，事情有点复杂。

No, I enjoy everything, of course.

不，我当然喜欢一切。

I think I got it out of my father, mostly, yes.

我想我是从我父亲那里得到的，是的。

My mother was a little more ascetic in a way.

在某种程度上，我的母亲更加禁欲一点。

But yes, the tiny little things of life are what makes one's life.

但是，是的，生活中的小事成就了一个人的生活。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I'm slowly starting to get that.

我慢慢开始明白这一点。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I think I've been a little rabid about my interests, almost to an obsessive level, to the point where I've sometimes overlooked how many opportunities for just lovely daily interactions I have.

我想我对自己的兴趣有点狂热，几乎达到了痴迷的程度，以至于有时我忽略了我有多少可爱的日常互动机会。

I try, but I feel like I've just been chasing the carrot-

我尝试过，但我觉得我只是在追逐胡萝卜——

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

of knowledge.

的知识。

I love doing what I do.

我喜欢做我所做的事。

I've always done that.

我一直都是这样做的。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Well, but you have to be careful indeed.

好吧，但你确实必须小心。

As you know, I meditate, and for many years and so on.

如你所知，我冥想了很多年等等。

And being in the present and being able to just be there and nothing else is a tremendous source of satisfaction and calms me down and so on.

活在当下，能够专注于当下，而不做其他事情，是一种巨大的满足感，能让我平静下来，等等。

And I love-

我爱-

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

When did you start that?

你什么时候开始这样做的？

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Well, I started actually out of the discovery, a trivial thing that many people have.

嗯，我实际上是从这个发现开始的，这是很多人都有的一件微不足道的事情。

I discovered that every time my blood pressure was taken by the doctor, it was just going through the roof.

我发现每次医生给我量血压，我的血压都快要冲破屋顶了。

It's called the white coat phenomenon or something of that sort.

这被称为白大衣现象或类似现象。

And I got very, very upset about it because I tried to control it, and it got worse and worse and worse, and they told me what to do.

我对此感到非常非常沮丧，因为我试图控制它，但情况变得越来越糟，他们告诉我该怎么做。

And so at one point or the other, I have a friend, a colleague more than a friend, who's a Buddhist, who started telling me about have you tried, first of all, biofeedback?

因此，在某个时刻，我有一位朋友，一位同事，而不是一位朋友，他是一名佛教徒，他开始告诉我，你首先尝试过生物反馈吗？

That's one I tried.

这是我尝试过的一个。

For a year, I did biofeedback.

一年来，我进行了生物反馈。

And then he started telling me about meditation.

然后他开始告诉我有关冥想的事情。

So one day, actually, he's a physicist as well, he was visiting me in my lab, and he said, "Let's do it." I did a session with him in meditation, and I couldn't believe it.

所以有一天，实际上，他也是一名物理学家，他来我的实验室拜访我，他说：“让我们开始吧。”我和他一起冥想，我简直不敢相信。

My hands suddenly were warm and felt incredibly nice.

我的手突然变得温暖起来，感觉非常好。

So I decided that I really wanted to learn how to do it.

所以我决定我真的想学习如何做到这一点。

And I started doing it at a time when I truly needed it because I realized that without being aware, I was anxious.

我在我真正需要的时候开始这样做，因为我意识到在不知不觉中我很焦虑。

Like for instance, I would see myself walking down the street holding my fists this way.

举例来说，我会看到自己这样握着拳头走在街上。

That's not a very relaxed way of living.

这不是一种非常轻松的生活方式。

Okay.

好的。

So I really started doing this meditation on a fairly continuous basis, and I really enjoy it.

所以我真的开始相当连续地进行这种冥想，而且我真的很喜欢它。

And it's very important as a father, I say this to anyone too, that you have to enjoy life.

作为一名父亲，这一点非常重要，我也对任何人说，你必须享受生活。

Pursuing these things, eventually, the value is in the pursuit, not in achieving them anyhow.

追求这些东西，最终，价值在于追求，而不是无论如何实现它们。

So you might as well pursue many things at the same time.

所以你不妨同时追求很多事情。

A good meal eaten properly can be very, very nice, too.

一顿美餐吃得好也可以是非常非常好的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I love that about you.

我喜欢你这一点。

It's something I'm working on.

这是我正在做的事情。

Along those lines, I remember when I was in graduate school, we published a paper, and then we published a second paper in "Science." And I remember thinking, "This is such a proud moment, a first author paper in the journal 'Science.'" And I told you, and you said, "Well, enjoy it, and just be aware that by tomorrow, you'll be worried that you'll never do it again."

沿着这些思路，我记得当我在研究生院时，我们发表了一篇论文，然后我们在《科学》上发表了第二篇论文。我记得我当时想，“这是一个令人自豪的时刻，这是《科学》杂志上的第一作者论文。”我告诉过你，你说，“好吧，享受它，只是要知道，到明天，你会担心你再也不会这样做了。”

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Exactly.

正是如此。

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And fortunately, we published in "Nature" and a few other journals a bunch of times after that.

幸运的是，此后我们在《自然》和其他一些期刊上发表了很多次文章。

But you also warned me about the postpartum-

但你也警告我有关产后的事-

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

of post-excitement.

后兴奋。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Something great happens.

伟大的事情发生了。

At that time, we, as a field of neuroscience, didn't really understand dopamine dynamics, but now we do.

当时，作为神经科学领域的我们，并没有真正了解多巴胺动力学，但现在我们了解了。

What you were describing is this trough in dopamine that we get-

你所描述的是我们得到的多巴胺低谷-

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Right

右

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

a day or two after some big event.

某件重大事件发生后一两天。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Typically, postpartum is associated with the birth of a child, but it could be getting a degree, or a great party, or a paper in "Science" or "Nature," a first author paper.

通常，产后与孩子的出生有关，但也可能是获得学位、参加盛大的聚会、《科学》或《自然》杂志上的一篇论文、第一作者论文。

And you said, "A couple of days from now, you're going to feel low."

你说：“几天后，你会感到情绪低落。”

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

"And you just have to wait." And I'll never forget what you said.

“而你只需要等待。”我永远不会忘记你所说的话。

You said, "Just go back to what inspired the first project, pick a different problem.

你说：“回到第一个项目的灵感来源，选择一个不同的问题。

It'll happen again."

它会再次发生。”

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And the second time it happened, I was like, "He was right.

第二次发生时，我想，“他是对的。

It happened again."

又发生了。”

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And again, and again.

一次又一次。

I haven't had an infinite number of those papers in those journals, but I learned about the dopamine dynamics associated with pursuing a goal, and then you get the thing, and you're very excited, and then you feel the drop.

我在这些期刊上发表的论文数量并不多，但我了解了与追求目标相关的多巴胺动态，然后你得到了东西，你非常兴奋，然后你感觉到了下降。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman:

贝尔纳多·胡伯曼博士：

And that I think that is something that even ancient philosophers knew about it, the Buddha, the Greeks, and so on, this idea that they said the things we pursue, they are ephemeral in a way, in the way the feelings that they elicit in us.

我认为，即使是古代哲学家、佛陀、希腊人等也知道这一点，他们说我们追求的东西在某种程度上是短暂的，就像它们在我们身上引起的感受一样。

And I think that you're right.

我认为你是对的。

And there is also another tendency one has to try to avoid, which is you're successful in something, and you continue doing exactly the same thing because, by now, you know how to do it with your hands tied here.

还有另一种趋势是人们必须努力避免的，那就是你在某件事上取得了成功，但你继续做同样的事情，因为到目前为止，你知道如何在双手被绑在这里的情况下做到这一点。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Correct.

正确。

Dr. Bernardo Huberman: