Dr. Becky Kennedy: Protocols for Excellent Parenting & Improving Relationships of All Kinds
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.
欢迎来到休伯曼实验室播客，我们在这里讨论科学和基于科学的日常生活工具。
I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.
我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。
My guest today is Dr. Becky Kennedy.
今天我的客人是贝基·肯尼迪博士。
Dr. Becky Kennedy is a clinical psychologist specializing in parent-child relationships.
贝基·肯尼迪博士是一位专门研究亲子关系的临床心理学家。
She received her degrees and did her training at Duke University and Columbia University in New York.
她在纽约的杜克大学和哥伦比亚大学获得了学位并接受了培训。
She is the author of the best-selling book, "Good Inside: A Guide to Becoming the Parent You Want to Be." She is also the founder and creator of an online learning platform, also called Good Inside, at which parents and parents-to-be can learn the best possible parenting skills that are grounded in the fields of clinical psychology, that have been proven to work in the real world, and that can allow people to navigate common sticking points in parent-child relationships.
她是畅销书《内在善良：成为你想成为的父母的指南》的作者。她还是一个在线学习平台的创始人和创建者，该平台也称为 Good Inside，在该平台上，父母和准父母可以学习基于临床心理学领域的最佳育儿技能，这些技能已被证明在现实世界中有效，并且可以帮助人们解决亲子关系中的常见症结。
During today's discussion, you will learn a tremendous amount of actionable knowledge about what it is to be a good parent.
在今天的讨论中，您将学到大量有关如何成为一名好父母的实用知识。
This is a conversation that pertains not just to parents and parents-to-be, but also uncles, aunts, grandparents, and also those of you not planning to or who do not want children.
这个对话不仅适用于父母和准父母，也适用于叔叔、阿姨、祖父母，以及那些不打算生孩子或不想要孩子的人。
I say that because while everything we discuss today is grounded in the discussion around parent-child relationships, it indeed pertains to all of us and relationships of all kinds, including romantic relationships, friendships, workplace relationships, and our relationship to self.
我这么说是因为，虽然我们今天讨论的一切都是基于亲子关系的讨论，但它确实涉及我们所有人以及各种关系，包括恋爱关系、友谊、职场关系以及我们与自我的关系。
Dr. Kennedy defines for us and makes clear and actionable what the exact job of good parenting is, and how that relates to other relationships that we might have.
肯尼迪博士为我们定义了良好养育的具体工作是什么，以及它与我们可能拥有的其他关系的关系，并阐明了这一点并具有可操作性。
She explains how to set healthy boundaries, and in fact, defines exactly what healthy boundaries are.
她解释了如何设定健康的界限，事实上，她准确地定义了健康的界限是什么。
There's a lot of misconception about that.
对此有很多误解。
We also talk a lot about empathy and the need to make children and ourselves feel safe in all kinds of relating.
我们还谈论了很多关于同理心以及让孩子和我们自己在各种关系中感到安全的必要性。
We discuss how to navigate disagreements and arguments, apologies and punishments, reward, and on and on, all framed within a real-world, real-time context.
我们讨论如何处理分歧和争论、道歉和惩罚、奖励等等，所有这些都在现实世界的实时背景下进行。
What I mean by that, and what I think really sets apart Dr. Becky Kennedy's work from so much else that you'll see out there on parent-child and other types of relationships, is that she makes what to do and say, and what not to do and say, in a variety of real-world contexts very clear, such that you can access that knowledge and do those specific things and avoid those specific things, even when things get tense.
我的意思是，我认为贝基·肯尼迪博士的工作与你在亲子关系和其他类型的关系上看到的其他作品的真正区别在于，她让在各种现实世界中该做什么、该说什么、什么不该做什么、不该说非常清楚，这样你就可以获取这些知识，做那些特定的事情，避免那些特定的事情，即使事情变得紧张。
In fact, especially when things get difficult or tense.
事实上，尤其是当事情变得困难或紧张时。
By the end of today's episode, you will have learned a dozen or more very potent, clinically backed tools to navigate parent-child relating, including your relationship to your own parents, alive or dead, and your relationship to self.
在今天的节目结束时，您将学到十几个或更多非常有效的、经过临床支持的工具来处理亲子关系，包括您与自己的父母（无论是活着的还是已故的）的关系，以及您与自我的关系。
Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.
在开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。
It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero-cost-to-consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public.
然而，我的愿望和努力的一部分是将有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本消费者信息带给公众。
In keeping with that theme, I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast.
为了与这个主题保持一致，我要感谢今天播客的赞助商。
And now for my discussion with Dr. Becky Kennedy.
现在我与贝基·肯尼迪博士进行讨论。
Dr. Becky Kennedy, welcome.
贝基·肯尼迪博士，欢迎。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Thank you.
谢谢你。
So excited to be here.
很高兴来到这里。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I have a lot of questions for you.
我有很多问题要问你。
And as I mentioned in my introduction, much of what we are going to discuss today relates to parent-child relating, but pertains to relationships generally.
正如我在介绍中提到的，我们今天要讨论的大部分内容都与亲子关系有关，但与一般关系有关。
So people with children, without children, who don't want children.
所以有孩子的人、没有孩子的人、不想要孩子的人。
Hopefully there aren't people that hate children.
希望没有人讨厌孩子。
But for all people out there, with children or not, planning them or not, relationships are really just fundamental to who we are.
但对于所有人来说，无论是否有孩子、是否有计划，人际关系确实是我们的基础。
And I actually place relationships, including relationship to self, in what we now think of as the six pillars of mental health, physical health, and performance.
实际上，我将人际关系（包括与自我的关系）归为我们现在认为的心理健康、身体健康和表现的六大支柱。
Sleep, nutrition, exercise.
睡眠、营养、运动。
Relationships clearly vital to all aspects of life.
人际关系显然对生活的各个方面都至关重要。
So I'd like to start off by just asking, for all of us, are there some simple or perhaps not so simple questions that we can reflect on that give us a sense of how good a parent we are or would be based on, I don't know, our previous parent-child relationships, our relationship to self?
因此，我想首先问我们所有人，是否有一些简单或可能不那么简单的问题可供我们反思，让我们了解我们是一个或将会成为一个多么好的父母，我不知道，我们以前的亲子关系，我们与自我的关系？
What kind of things come to bear when we think about really healthy relationships?
当我们思考真正健康的关系时，会发生哪些事情？
I can start rattling off a list of what I imagine they could be, but what are your thoughts?
我可以开始列出我想象的清单，但你的想法是什么？
What's the parameter space, as we say?
正如我们所说，参数空间是什么？
How should we think about relationships besides just, oh, I either like this person or don't, or I feel good around them or I don't, or separating how I feel about them versus how they make me feel.
我们应该如何思考人际关系，除了，哦，我要么喜欢这个人，要么不喜欢这个人，或者我在他们身边感觉很好，或者我不喜欢，或者区分我对他们的感觉和他们给我的感觉。
Maybe we can drill a little deeper below the more superficial stuff that we often see out there.
也许我们可以在我们经常看到的更肤浅的东西下面更深入一些。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
The first thing that comes to mind when you say that is this word sturdiness.
说起这个词，大家第一个想到的就是“坚强”这个词。
And to me, when someone says, "What is Good Inside as an approach?" That's always the first word that comes to mind.
对我来说，当有人问“什么是 Good Inside 作为一种方法？”这始终是我脑海中浮现的第一个词。
And I know that's an odd word.
我知道这是一个奇怪的词。
It's not a word we use a lot, although I do think most people when you say, "That person's a really sturdy person," I think we all have some connotation or feeling at least of what that means.
这不是我们经常使用的一个词，尽管我确实认为大多数人当你说“那个人是一个非常坚强的人”时，我认为我们至少都有一些内涵或感觉。
And I use it a lot, being a sturdy parent, being a sturdy leader.
我经常使用它，作为一个坚强的父母，一个坚强的领导者。
I talk a lot about the similarities to parenting and being a pilot of a plane, and that word sturdy always comes up.
我谈了很多关于养育子女和成为一名飞机飞行员的相似之处，而“坚固”这个词总是出现。
And so I remember a little while ago, someone pushed me, they're like, "What's your definition of what that means?" And at that point, I thought, "Wow, I should probably have a definition given I use it a lot." But what I think it really means is an ability to be connected to yourself and to someone else at the same time.
所以我记得不久前，有人推我，他们就像，“你对这意味着什么的定义是什么？”那时，我想，“哇，鉴于我经常使用它，我可能应该有一个定义。”但我认为它真正意味着的是一种同时与自己和他人建立联系的能力。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wow.
哇。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
And I think that is really the definition of sturdy leadership, and that is the key thing that's present in a healthy relationship.
我认为这确实是坚强领导力的定义，也是健康关系中的关键。
That at once I know my values, what I want, what I need.
我立刻就知道我的价值观、我想要什么、我需要什么。
I feel like I can be true to that.
我觉得我可以做到这一点。
And at the same time, I can connect to someone else who probably has different wants and needs, and maybe even slightly different values at the same time.
同时，我可以与可能有不同需求、甚至价值观略有不同的其他人建立联系。
And the thing that that leads me to next is what I think about as family jobs and a parent job.
引导我下一步的是我所认为的家庭工作和家长工作。
So In almost any other place, you could assume if I'm getting a new job at this company, there's just no way I could do my job well if I don't know what my job is.
所以在几乎任何其他地方，你都可以假设，如果我在这家公司找到一份新工作，如果我不知道我的工作是什么，我就不可能做好我的工作。
If you go to your desk and your boss like, "Have a good day, do a good job," and there's no job description, you'd be like, "I think that's impossible." But over and over with parents, if I say to them, "Well, what is your job with your kid?" Or when your kid's having a tantrum, or they hit, or they're rude, or they lie to your face, or anything, like what is your job in that moment, most people, very well-intentioned, educated people who would never, ever take a job if they didn't have a job description, they look at me and they're like, "I have no idea." So how can we do it well?
如果你走到你的办公桌前，你的老板说，“祝你有美好的一天，做好工作”，但没有职位描述，你会说，“我认为这是不可能的。”但是，如果我一次又一次地对父母说：“那么，你和孩子的工作是什么？”或者当你的孩子发脾气，或者他们打人，或者他们粗鲁，或者他们当面撒谎，或者其他什么事情，比如你当时的工作是什么，大多数人，善意的，受过教育的人，如果他们没有工作描述，他们永远不会接受工作，他们看着我，他们就像，“我不知道。”那么我们怎样才能做好呢？
How can we then perform it to a place to get to the outcomes we want if you don't have the foundation of what your job is?
如果您没有工作的基础，那么我们如何才能将其执行到一个地方以获得我们想要的结果呢？
And to me, I've thought a lot about it.
对我来说，我想了很多。
I think parents actually have two jobs, and it relates to sturdiness, so you'll connect it, where one of our jobs is boundaries.
我认为父母实际上有两份工作，这与坚固性有关，所以你会把它联系起来，我们的工作之一是边界。
And to me, boundaries are things we tell people we will do, and they require the other person to do nothing.
对我来说，界限是我们告诉别人我们会做的事情，它们要求对方什么也不做。
And that's really important, because a lot of times we think we're setting a boundary when actually we're making a request.
这真的很重要，因为很多时候我们认为我们在设定界限，而实际上我们是在提出请求。
And boundaries keep us connected to ourselves.
界限让我们与自己保持联系。
They represent our values and our wants and our needs.
它们代表了我们的价值观、我们的愿望和需求。
And in a parent-child relationship, they also keep our kids safe.
在亲子关系中，他们也保证我们孩子的安全。
If I just know in a simple way, like my kids watched enough TV today, and they really have to get to bed, and I know that.
如果我以简单的方式知道，就像我的孩子今天看了足够多的电视，他们真的必须上床睡觉，我知道这一点。
I don't want them to stay up late.
我不想让他们熬夜。
I kind of know what my family needs.
我有点知道我的家人需要什么。
I have to set a boundary.
我必须设定一个界限。
But the other part of my job is empathy and validation, which is a way of connecting to someone else, where you see someone else's feelings and experience as real.
但我工作的另一部分是同理心和验证，这是与他人建立联系的一种方式，在这里你可以看到别人的感受和经历是真实的。
You don't agree with it, probably.
你可能不同意它。
You don't necessarily condone the behavior that's the representation of the feelings.
你不一定会容忍代表感情的行为。
But the feelings themself, you need to connect to.
但感受本身，你需要联系起来。
And I feel like those are our two jobs as parents, and that's really the way to be a sturdy leader and to be in a sturdy, healthy relationship with your kids.
我觉得这是我们作为父母的两项工作，这确实是成为一个坚强的领导者并与孩子建立牢固、健康的关系的方法。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wow.
哇。
So much there, and I love it.
那里有很多东西，我喜欢它。
And here's one of the reasons I love it.
这就是我喜欢它的原因之一。
This notion of sturdiness, something that I don't think we hear enough about.
我认为我们对这种坚固性的概念了解得还不够多。
We hear about resilience, grit, also important terms.
我们听说过韧性、毅力，还有一些重要的术语。
But sturdiness, as you've described it in the job of parenting, really seems to include a lot of verbs, not just nouns and adjectives.
但是，正如您在养育子女的工作中所描述的那样，“坚固”似乎确实包含很多动词，而不仅仅是名词和形容词。
And I'm a huge fan of verbs because biology and to some extent psychology, yes, also psychology, is all about verbs.
我非常喜欢动词，因为生物学和某种程度上心理学，是的，还有心理学，都是关于动词的。
And so the labels often are mysterious, but sturdiness just sends a clear message of something that doesn't budge easily.
因此，标签通常很神秘，但坚固性只是传递了一个明确的信息，表明某些东西不会轻易移动。
But then as you describe the job of being a parent, having boundaries, and I'd like to drill into that a little bit more, how you view boundaries.
但当你描述作为父母的工作时，有界限，我想更深入地探讨一下你如何看待界限。
But also empathy.
但也有同理心。
It's not a walled-off picture.
这不是一张被围墙隔开的照片。
It's one that is semipermeable.
这是一种半渗透性的。
Also, and I confess I'm a bit obsessed with old school psychoanalytic theory, not as the be-all, end-all of psychology, but it also suggests this other relationship.
另外，我承认我有点沉迷于老派的精神分析理论，而不是心理学的全部，但它也暗示了另一种关系。
Like I'm a person, I have a self.
就像我是一个人一样，我有一个自我。
You're a person, you have a self.
你是一个人，你有一个自我。
This is the opposite of codependency, where obviously dependency and two people being, quote-unquote, "codependent" can be healthy in the context of relying on one another.
这与相互依赖相反，在相互依赖的情况下，显然依赖和两个人“相互依赖”在相互依赖的情况下可以是健康的。
But as I understand it, when one person has a self and another person doesn't have a self, or this notion of merging, not just in romantic relationships, but child-parent relationships.
但据我了解，当一个人有自我而另一个人没有自我时，或者这种融合的概念，不仅在浪漫关系中，而且在子女与父母的关系中。
I'm best friends with my mom or dad.
我和我的妈妈或爸爸是最好的朋友。
Is that a good thing?
这是一件好事吗？
I don't know.
我不知道。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But this notion of other, other relationships.
但这种其他关系的概念。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's like I'm a self, you're a self, and we each see each other as an other.
就好像我是一个自我，你也是一个自我，我们彼此都将彼此视为彼此。
Anyway, I think there's so much to explore here, so valuable.
无论如何，我认为这里有很多值得探索的地方，非常有价值。
You mentioned that boundaries are something that we do, and that requires that the other do nothing.
你提到边界是我们做的事情，而这要求其他人什么也不做。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Can we go a little bit further into that?
我们可以更进一步吗？
Because it's a beautiful concept, and this notion of boundaries.
因为这是一个美丽的概念，以及边界的概念。
But like gaslighting, narcissism, and all the other things that we hear about nowadays, I think are often badly misunderstood.
但就像煤气灯操纵、自恋以及我们现在听到的所有其他事情一样，我认为经常被严重误解。
So tell us more about boundaries and how that looks in the-
请告诉我们更多关于边界的信息以及它在-中的样子-
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in the action sense of it.
从行动意义上来说。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
And this is all so connected to what you're saying, that other, other relationship.
这一切都与你所说的其他关系密切相关。
I'm a person, you're a person, and so many times that actually is what gets merged.
我是一个人，你也是一个人，很多时候这实际上是融合在一起的。
And so my kid gets upset that I say they can't watch another show, and a parent really in that moment, it's like whose feelings are whose?
所以我的孩子因为我说他们不能看其他节目而感到不安，而父母在那一刻真的会觉得谁的感受是谁的？
They were upset.
他们很沮丧。
Was I was upset?
我很不高兴吗？
A second ago, I thought I should set the boundary, and now all of a sudden, I'm changing my mind.
前一秒，我认为我应该设定界限，但现在突然间，我改变了主意。
There is this complete role kind of confusion and merger, which is one of the main reasons that kids get actually really scared and escalate their behavior, because they don't have a sturdy leader when they really need one.
这种完整的角色混乱和融合，这是孩子们真正感到害怕并升级他们的行为的主要原因之一，因为当他们真正需要一个强有力的领导者时，他们却没有一个强有力的领导者。
So boundaries are what we tell someone we will do, and they require the other person to do nothing.
所以界限就是我们告诉别人我们会做的事情，而他们要求对方什么也不做。
I like this definition for a lot of reasons.
我喜欢这个定义有很多原因。
I'm just very practical, so it allows me, after I set a boundary, to assess, was that a boundary or not?
我只是很实际，所以它让我在设定一个界限之后，去评估这个界限到底是不是？
Because let's take the TV example.
因为让我们以电视为例。
It's whatever time at night.
晚上无论什么时间都可以。
My kid has just watched a show, and they know they were supposed to watch one show and then turn off the TV.
我的孩子刚刚看了一个节目，他们知道他们应该看一个节目，然后关掉电视。
I hear from parents a lot, "My kid doesn't listen," or, "My kid doesn't respect my boundaries." And I'll say, "Okay, that sounds hard.
我经常听到父母说，“我的孩子不听话”，或者“我的孩子不尊重我的界限”。我会说：“好吧，这听起来很难。
Let's get into that." So then they'll say, "So I told my kid to shut off the TV.
让我们开始吧。”然后他们会说：“所以我告诉我的孩子关掉电视。
They just kept watching.
他们只是一直看着。
They just kept on.
他们只是继续前进。
I told my kid to stop jumping on the couch, and they kept jumping.
我告诉我的孩子不要在沙发上跳，他们却一直跳。
They don't respect my boundaries.
他们不尊重我的界限。
They don't listen." To me, this is a beautiful example of this is a problem, I agree, but this is not a boundary problem.
他们不听。”对我来说，这是一个很好的例子，这是一个问题，我同意，但这不是一个边界问题。
You made a request of your child.
您向您的孩子提出了要求。
And frankly, if you have your, I'm making this up, seven-year-old watching TV, I'm not so good at putting away TV and a phone at night.
坦率地说，如果你有你的，我编造的，七岁的孩子在看电视，我不太擅长在晚上收起电视和电话。
It's just hard for me to do.
这对我来说很难做到。
So your seven-year-old probably is just addicted to what's ever happening.
所以你七岁的孩子可能只是沉迷于正在发生的事情。
And we're kind of asking our kid- To do our job for us because we don't want our kid to be mad at us or whatever it is.
我们要求我们的孩子为我们做我们的工作，因为我们不想让我们的孩子生我们的气或其他什么。
A boundary in that situation would be saying, "Oh, you didn't put off the TV.
在这种情况下，界限就是：“哦，你没有关掉电视。
Look, by the time I get over there, if you haven't turned off the TV, and I don't want to do this, but I will take the remote out of your hand and shut it off." A boundary is saying, "Oh, after my request doesn't work, can you get off the couch?
听着，等我到了那里，如果你还没有关掉电视，我也不想这么做，但我会从你手里夺过遥控器，把它关掉。”边界在说：“哦，在我的请求不起作用之后，你能从沙发上下来吗？
You can jump on the floor.
你可以在地板上跳。
Look, if by the time I get over there you haven't gotten off the couch, I will pick you up." I'm not going to put the success of my intervention in my seven-year-old's hand.
听着，如果我到那里的时候你还没有从沙发上下来，我就去接你。”我不会把干预的成功交给我七岁的孩子。
I care too much about my own needs and my own role as a leader in my home to do that.
我太关心自己的需求和自己作为家里领导者的角色，无法做到这一点。
Right?
正确的？
Same thing with, let's say, in-laws.
比如说，姻亲也是如此。
My mother-in-law doesn't respect my boundaries.
我的婆婆不尊重我的界限。
She always shows up without calling.
她总是不打电话就出现。
Now, I don't want to get to this point, and there's a lot of things in a relationship we can do before we get to this point, but if that's really a boundary and I have a very intrusive mother-in-law, a boundary would be saying, "Look, this is going to be awkward, and I know you mean well, but the next time you come unannounced, I will come to your car and say, 'Oh, this time doesn't work for us.
现在，我不想达到这一点，在达到这一点之前，我们可以在关系中做很多事情，但如果这确实是一个界限，而我有一个非常爱管闲事的婆婆，这个界限就会说，“听着，这会很尴尬，我知道你是好意，但下次你不请自来的时候，我会走到你的车前说，‘哦，这一次不适合我们。
You cannot come in,' and I will go back into my house and close the door." Now, there's going to be lots of feelings around that, but you are now setting a true boundary.
你不能进来，’我会回到我的房子并关上门。”现在，对此会有很多感受，但你现在正在设定一个真正的界限。
And when we say our kids don't listen, those are often situations, not all of them, but there's a big percentage, where I'm actually not setting a boundary early enough and in a sturdy enough way, which is what my kid needs, because at that point, they simply don't have the skills to inhibit an urge, and they need me to be the boundary for them.
当我们说我们的孩子不听话时，通常是这样的情况，不是全部，但有很大比例，我实际上没有足够早地以足够坚固的方式设定界限，这正是我的孩子所需要的，因为在那时，他们根本没有能力抑制冲动，他们需要我成为他们的界限。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We hear sometimes that kids are craving rules, they're craving boundaries.
有时我们听说孩子们渴望规则，他们渴望界限。
I don't know, I was kind of a wild adolescent and teenager.
我不知道，我是一个狂野的青少年。
Maybe a little more than wild.
也许比狂野还要狂野一点。
I don't recall ever craving rules.
我不记得曾经渴望遵守规则。
But I do recall paying attention to their lack of presence.
但我确实记得注意到他们的缺席。
So, what of that?
那么，那又怎样呢？
Is this notion that kids really want and crave rules and boundaries, is that sort of a, I don't know, projection that we put onto them?
我不知道，孩子们真的想要并渴望规则和界限，这是我们对他们的一种投射吗？
And I'm not exploring this just for fun.
我探索这个并不是为了好玩。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm exploring it because I think that one thing that's very helpful in setting boundaries, especially with kids, is the idea that, gosh, even if it's a bit painful to see them in discomfort, there's that empathy piece that you talked about before.
我正在探索它，因为我认为对设定界限非常有帮助的一件事，尤其是对孩子来说，就是这样一个想法，天哪，即使看到他们感到不适有点痛苦，那就是你之前谈到的同理心。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That empathic attunement can get in the way of boundaries, right?
这种同理心的协调可能会妨碍界限，对吗？
And they're not mutually exclusive, but these are somewhat competing forces at times.
它们并不相互排斥，但有时在某种程度上是相互竞争的力量。
So if we know or if we can acknowledge or at least explore this idea that rules are deep down what they really want, not just what they need-
因此，如果我们知道或者如果我们能够承认或至少探索这样一个想法，即规则是他们真正想要的，而不仅仅是他们需要的——
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
maybe it would help.
也许会有帮助。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yes, and I think, by the way, in my taking the remote away or taking my kid off the couch, just to be clear, if I do that to my kid, they are not going to say, "Oh, Mom, you are the best mom in the world.
是的，顺便说一句，我想，在我拿走遥控器或把我的孩子从沙发上抱起来时，要明确的是，如果我对我的孩子这样做，他们不会说，“哦，妈妈，你是世界上最好的妈妈。
Thank you." They are going to cry and scream.
谢谢你。”他们会哭泣和尖叫。
And that's where boundaries and empathy, those two parts of our job, actually do always go together.
这就是界限和同理心，我们工作的这两部分，实际上总是相辅相成的。
I think they're actually partners.
我认为他们实际上是合作伙伴。
They're not actually at odds, because as soon as my kid is upset, what I would say to them is, "Oh, you wanted to jump on the couch.
他们实际上并不矛盾，因为一旦我的孩子不高兴，我就会对他们说：“哦，你想跳到沙发上。
It's not as much fun on the floor.
在地板上就没那么有趣了。
Oh, you really wanted to watch another show.
哦，你真的想看另一场演出。
You didn't even want it this big.
你甚至不想要这么大。
You wanted to watch it this big." It sounds crazy because you're like, "Wait, why am I empathizing with that feeling?
你想看这么大的事。”这听起来很疯狂，因为你会想，“等等，为什么我会同情这种感觉？
They just kind of disobeyed." No, they're two different things.
他们只是有点不服从。”不，它们是两个不同的东西。
I'm doing my job in setting a boundary.
我正在做我的工作，设定界限。
They're actually doing their job and feeling their feelings.
他们实际上是在做自己的工作并感受自己的感受。
That's actually their job.
这实际上是他们的工作。
The only way you can ever learn to regulate a feeling is through feeling the feeling.
你学会调节感觉的唯一方法就是通过感受这种感觉。
So they're doing their job.
所以他们正在做他们的工作。
Now I'm going to validate, and this is how kids learn emotion regulation.
现在我要验证一下，这就是孩子们学习情绪调节的方式。
Boundaries, they feel, I validate, I hold the boundary.
他们感觉到边界，我验证边界，我守住边界。
Over and over and over.
一遍又一遍。
So do kids crave rules?
那么孩子们渴望规则吗？
And I think one of the issues is that most parenting approaches have one or the other, and I think they're both very incomplete strategies.
我认为问题之一是大多数育儿方法都只有其中之一，而且我认为它们都是非常不完整的策略。
If you just lead with rules, right, I don't know who said it, definitely wasn't me.
如果你只是用规则来引导，对吧，我不知道是谁说的，肯定不是我。
What is it?
它是什么？
Rules without relationship lead to rebellion.
没有关系的规则会导致叛逆。
Yeah, that's what happens, right?
是的，就是这样，对吧？
So that's not good.
所以这不好。
But I see this day and age, we've swung the other direction.
但我看到当今时代，我们已经转向了另一个方向。
It is also not a complete parenting strategy when your kid's jumping on the couch to do nothing, if you think that's dangerous, and just saying, "Oh, you really want to jump, jump, jump, and such big feelings." Like, that is not what kids need.
当你的孩子在沙发上跳来跳去什么也不做时，如果你认为这很危险，然后只是说：“哦，你真的很想跳，跳，跳，还有这么大的感觉。”这也不是一个完整的养育策略。就像，这不是孩子们需要的。
I think kids crave boundaries and they crave feeling seen and understood.
我认为孩子们渴望界限，渴望被看到和理解的感觉。
Because as kids are growing up, I think the questions they're always asking parents, even though of course they never say this, is just, "Am I real and am I safe?" Every interaction, that's what they're asking us.
因为随着孩子的成长，我认为他们总是问父母的问题只是：“我真实吗？我安全吗？”每次互动，这就是他们问我们的问题。
The reason we have to validate their feelings when they're upset, even though they're so upset just that their string cheese broke, whatever it is, is feelings don't have markers like blood.
当他们心烦意乱时，我们必须验证他们的感受，即使他们心烦意乱只是他们的奶酪串破裂了，不管是什么，因为感情没有像血液一样的标记。
They don't know.
他们不知道。
And so when we say, "Oh, you wanted your string cheese to be together," what we're really saying is, "The things you experience inside of you are real." But kids are also desperate to know how far do things go.
因此，当我们说“哦，你希望你的奶酪串在一起”时，我们真正想说的是，“你内心经历的事情是真实的。”但孩子们也迫切想知道事情进展到了什么程度。
No one likes to feel boundaryless as a kid.
没有人喜欢小时候感觉无边无际。
That's terrifying, right?
这太可怕了，对吧？
And so when we set a boundary, we actually say to a kid, "I will always protect you.
因此，当我们设定界限时，我们实际上是在对孩子说：“我会永远保护你。
I won't let things get so far out of control." So I do think, I don't know if it's rules, but kids crave connection, and I think boundaries and validation and empathy, they are the two forms of connection that kids, yeah, are really desperate for.
我不会让事情变得如此失控。”所以我确实认为，我不知道这是否是规则，但孩子们渴望联系，我认为界限、验证和同理心，它们是孩子们真正渴望的两种联系形式。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What about rewarding kids?
奖励孩子怎么办？
And here, rather than start off by asking what are the best ways to reward kids in healthy ways, I will ask that in a moment.
在这里，我不会首先问以健康的方式奖励孩子的最佳方式是什么，而是稍后再问。
How can we evaluate the notion of rewards or incentives through this lens of sturdiness, boundaries, and empathy?
我们如何通过稳健性、界限和同理心来评估奖励或激励的概念？
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because I could imagine a reward that's outsized in comparison to what a kid did.
因为我可以想象得到的奖励与一个孩子所做的相比是巨大的。
Okay, great.
好的，太好了。
You took your plate to the kitchen sink after dinner.
晚饭后，你把盘子拿到厨房的水槽里。
You get $10,000, obviously out of scale, extreme example, but just by way of example.
你得到了 10,000 美元，显然超出了规模，这是一个极端的例子，但只是作为例子。
Screw up their reward mechanisms for life, if you ask me.
如果你问我的话，就搞砸他们的终生奖励机制。
Everything I know about reward and neuroplasticity says that would occur.
我所知道的有关奖励和神经可塑性的一切都表明这种情况会发生。
But this idea that you can incentivize kids.
但这个想法可以激励孩子。
If you turn off the TV now, then you definitely can watch tomorrow night, whereas if you don't, you can't.
如果你现在关掉电视，那么明天晚上你肯定可以看，如果不关掉，你就不能看。
So you're sort of merging reward and potential punishment.
所以你有点将奖励和潜在的惩罚结合起来。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
How do we bound rewards?
我们如何绑定奖励？
And how do we take into account that when we start adding rewards to scenarios that we're mixing and matching life experience for them?
当我们开始为场景添加奖励时，我们如何考虑到我们正在为他们混合和匹配生活体验？
Okay, so now doing what I'm told, do I always expect a reward?
好吧，现在按照我的指示去做，我总是期待奖励吗？
If the reward doesn't come next time, we know based on reward prediction error, we tend to be worse off emotionally than had we never received-
如果奖励下次没有出现，根据奖励预测错误，我们知道，我们的情绪往往会比从未收到过的情况更糟——
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
a reward in the first place.
首先是奖励。
Again, pretty vast parameter space, but what are your thoughts on best ways to reward kids for standard good behavior-
再说一次，参数空间相当大，但是你对奖励孩子标准良好行为的最佳方法有何看法？
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
versus achievement, versus elimination of bad behavior?
与成就，与消除不良行为？
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Maybe.
也许吧。
So three categories.
所以分为三类。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
I think you're asking a much bigger question, or I think you are, which is why do parents think we need to reward kids?
我认为你在问一个更大的问题，或者我认为你是，这就是为什么父母认为我们需要奖励孩子？
Why do we think we need to punish kids?
为什么我们认为我们需要惩罚孩子？
And this is actually where everything I work on started from because the way I was trained to work with parents, I went to the best gold standard evidence-based program, and it was all about timeouts and punishments and rewards and stickers and ignoring and praise.
这实际上是我所做的一切工作的起点，因为我接受的与父母合作的培训方式，我参加了最好的黄金标准循证计划，而这一切都是关于暂停、惩罚、奖励和贴纸、忽视和表扬。
And honestly, during the training, for the years after I kind of practiced this way, I feel like that, you know this better than I am, so I shouldn't even say this, but that left part of my brain, logic and linearity, I was just like, "This is amazing.
老实说，在训练期间，在我以这种方式练习之后的几年里，我有这样的感觉，你比我更了解这一点，所以我什至不应该这么说，但这留下了我大脑的一部分，逻辑和线性，我就像，“这太棒了。
Oh my goodness, we're going to get more of the good behavior, and we're going to not get the bad behavior." And I'd start teaching this to parents in my private practice.
天啊，我们将会得到更多的良好行为，而不会得到不良行为。”我会开始在我的私人诊所中向父母们传授这一点。
And there was this little thing in me, I was like, "I don't know about this.
我心里有一个小东西，我当时想，“我不知道这件事。
I don't know." And it'd get louder and louder to the point that in a session, I literally said to a parent in front of me, I was just telling them how to do a timeout, and I said, "I'm sorry, I don't believe anything I've been telling you." That's literally what I said because it was so loud, and it was obviously super awkward.
我不知道。”声音会变得越来越大，以至于在一次会议上，我真的对我面前的一位家长说，我只是告诉他们如何暂停，然后我说，“对不起，我不相信我告诉你的任何事情。”这就是我所说的，因为声音太大了，而且显然非常尴尬。
But it led me to, I feel like from this first principles way, be like there are a million assumptions that we have about raising kids, and I think about relationships.
但它让我觉得，从这个第一原则的角度来看，我们对抚养孩子有一百万个假设，我思考人际关系。
And if I just strip them back, what would I be left with and what would be a new building from there?
如果我把它们剥离掉，我会剩下什么，以及那里的新建筑会是什么？
And rewards and punishments to me are these assumptions that we have somehow converted from the fiction shelf of the library, in my mind, to the non-fiction shelf as truths, and I kind of rail against all of them.
对我来说，奖励和惩罚就是这些假设，在我看来，我们已经从图书馆的小说书架上以某种方式将其转变为非小说书架上的真理，而我有点反对所有这些假设。
So I think the question, if that's okay to go in that direction, to me is why do we think we need to reward kids, and is there actually a better system, both short-term and long-term?
所以我认为问题是，如果朝这个方向走可以的话，对我来说，为什么我们认为我们需要奖励孩子，实际上是否有一个更好的系统，无论是短期还是长期？
I'm incredibly long-term greedy in my parenting approach because, at the end of the day, 18 and up is where things really matter.
我对自己的养育方式极其贪婪，因为归根结底，18 岁及以上才是事情真正重要的时候。
Not really matter.
并不重要。
I mean, they all matter.
我的意思是，它们都很重要。
But I want to help my kids become sturdy, resilient adults.
但我想帮助我的孩子成为坚强、有弹性的成年人。
But I'm short-term greedy too because I'm a realist.
但我也贪婪于短期，因为我是一个现实主义者。
I just can't deal with all of these difficult moments.
我无法应对所有这些困难时刻。
You get both, for sure, without rewards and punishments.
当然，你会得到两者，没有奖励和惩罚。
So I don't know.
所以我不知道。
What might someone tell me they give a reward for?
有人可能会告诉我他们奖励什么？
Do you want to use the clearing the table example?
您想使用清理表格的示例吗？
Let's start that there.
让我们从这里开始吧。
It kind of goes back to believing kids are inherently good inside.
这可以追溯到相信孩子本质上是善良的。
I really think it goes back to that.
我真的认为这可以追溯到这一点。
If you really believe kids are inherently good inside, which by the way, when I strip back every assumption, the only thing I was left was that.
如果你真的相信孩子本质上是善良的，顺便说一句，当我剥离所有假设时，我唯一剩下的就是这个。
Literally, the only thing.
从字面上看，唯一的事情。
And then I started to think, "Okay, so if they're good inside, why do they do so many annoying things all the time?" But that gave me a gap, and I feel like that is very exciting to have a gap.
然后我开始想，“好吧，如果他们内心很好，为什么他们总是做这么多烦人的事情呢？”但这给了我一个差距，我觉得有一个差距是非常令人兴奋的。
Why do people who are good inside do such bad things, right?
内心善良的人为什么会做出这么坏的事呢？
Adults or kids.
成人或儿童。
And to me, kids are born with all the feelings and none of the skills to manage those feelings, period.
对我来说，孩子生来就有所有的感受，但没有管理这些感受的技能。
And we've often thought, therefore, when feelings-- Feelings without skills come out in behaviors.
因此，我们常常想，当情感——没有技能的情感在行为中表现出来时。
I think that's what bad behaviors are, feelings or urges or something without a skill to manage them or without access to the skill, maybe in that moment.
我认为这就是不良行为，感觉或冲动或没有技能来管理它们或无法获得技能的东西，也许在那一刻。
Either way.
无论哪种方式。
And then we end up punishing behavior, but the behavior was just a sign of the lack of skill.
然后我们最终会惩罚行为，但这种行为只是缺乏技能的表现。
So I can't imagine anyone thinking I could teach my kid to swim by punishing them for not swimming.
所以我无法想象有人认为我可以通过惩罚我的孩子不游泳来教他们游泳。
I think someone would say that was crazy.
我想有人会说这太疯狂了。
But that's kind of how we raise kids.
但这就是我们抚养孩子的方式。
And then we think rewarding them is going to be effective, but it actually leads over and over to what you said.
然后我们认为奖励他们会很有效，但实际上它会一次又一次地导致你所说的结果。
I've seen these parents over and over in my private practice.
我在我的私人诊所里一遍又一遍地见到这些父母。
"My 14-year-old literally won't pick up their clothes from the floor unless I give them $5.
“我 14 岁的孩子根本不会从地板上捡起衣服，除非我给他们 5 美元。
How did I get here?" And I'm like, "Yeah, that's a problem, but I saw how they got there." So let's take clearing their plate.
我怎么到这里来了？”我想，“是的，这是一个问题，但我看到了他们是如何到达那里的。”那么让我们来清理他们的盘子吧。
I know this is going to sound cheesy, but kids do have something in them where they want to feel like a purposeful, meaningful part of society.
我知道这听起来很俗气，但孩子们身上确实有一些东西，他们希望感觉自己是社会中一个有目标、有意义的一部分。
They do.
他们确实这么做了。
Impact drives adults, and it drives kids.
影响力驱动成年人，也驱动孩子。
It's not the same type of rewarding as playing "Fortnite." It's a totally different system.
这与玩《堡垒之夜》的奖励类型不同。这是一个完全不同的系统。
But I think the question is, why do we think we have to bribe kids or kind of trick them into doing things that are kind of basic parts of human life?
但我认为问题是，为什么我们认为我们必须贿赂孩子或欺骗他们做人类生活基本部分的事情？
And so if we take that, and my kid chronically isn't clearing their plate, I could say to them, "Look, every time you clear a plate, I'm going to give you a sticker.
因此，如果我们采取这一点，而我的孩子长期不清理盘子，我可以对他们说：“看，每次你清理盘子时，我都会给你一张贴纸。
After five stickers, you're going to get," I don't know, whatever it is.
五张贴纸之后，你会得到，“我不知道，不管它是什么。
To me, a much more just effective way is I'd say to my kid, "Hey, I know you know clearing a plate is just one way of being part of this family and taking care of stuff.
对我来说，一种更公正有效的方法是对我的孩子说：“嘿，我知道你知道清理盘子只是成为这个家庭的一部分并照顾东西的一种方式。
I know you know that.
我知道你知道这一点。
We're on the same team." I say that phrase, "We're on the same team." Right?
我们在同一个团队。”我说那句话，“我们在同一个团队。”正确的？
We are.
我们是。
Something's getting in your way of remembering.
有些东西妨碍了你的记忆。
I'm going to assume I like the most generous interpretation.
我假设我喜欢最慷慨的解释。
That to me allows you to separate someone's bad behavior from their good identity.
对我来说，这可以让你将某人的不良行为与他们的良好身份区分开来。
Then I'm going to say, "What would help you remember?" We literally did this with my son who always had his towel on the floor.
然后我会说：“什么可以帮助你记住？”我们确实是对我儿子这样做的，他总是把毛巾放在地板上。
And I was just like, I bet he just doesn't remember.
我当时就想，我敢打赌他就是不记得了。
He literally doesn't see it.
他确实没有看到。
And we talked about it, and he's like-- We talked about him putting a Post-It, literally something simple like a Post-It on my door that just says, "Pick up my towel." He wrote it in his own handwriting.
我们谈到了这件事，他就像——我们谈到他在我的门上贴了一张便利贴，字面意思就是像便利贴一样简单的东西，上面写着：“拿起我的毛巾。”他亲手写下了它。
Trying to facilitate him solving his own problems, and now he has a much higher rate of picking up his towel.
试图帮助他解决自己的问题，现在他拿起毛巾的率高了很多。
I guess I could've said, "Every time you pick up your towel, you'll," I don't know, "get a dollar," or whatever it is.
我想我可以说，“每次你拿起毛巾，你都会，”我不知道，“得到一美元”，或者其他什么。
But again, it makes me think I'm not building the generalizable skill that way.
但同样，这让我觉得我并没有以这种方式建立通用技能。
I'm just offering something at the end, which sets me on this awful cycle that I think misses the point.
我只是在最后提供一些东西，这让我陷入了这个可怕的循环，我认为这没有抓住要点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I love the idea that kids want purpose.
我喜欢孩子们想要目标的想法。
And am I correct in wondering if that goes back to this am I real component of the am I real, am I safe?
我想知道这是否可以追溯到“我是真实的我吗？我安全吗？”这一问题是否正确？
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
One way that we know we are real is our ability to impart change on the world around us.
我们知道自己真实存在的一种方式是我们有能力改变周围的世界。
I don't want to get too abstract here, but as a neuroscientist, I've often sat back and reflected, like, all the emotions we feel, no one sees that or knows that.
我不想在这里说得太抽象，但作为一名神经科学家，我经常坐下来反思，就像我们感受到的所有情绪一样，没有人看到或知道。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Unless we say something, we write something, we sing something, we shout something, all the forms of expression.
除非我们说点什么，写点什么，唱点什么，喊点什么，所有的表达形式。
Just like none of our dreams, our creative insights, or wishes exist except inside us, unless we transmute them into something in the real world.
就像我们的梦想一样，我们的创造性见解或愿望除了在我们内心之外都不存在，除非我们将它们转化为现实世界中的某种东西。
So there does seem to be something about having this nervous system from a time we're really young.
因此，我们从很小的时候起就拥有这种神经系统，这似乎确实是有原因的。
It's seeing our effect on the world that really makes us real and on others.
看到我们对世界的影响才真正使我们和他人变得真实。
And I love the idea that, well, and I must say, I absolutely believe in my heart, and I just feel it as a feeling, that kids are inherently good inside.
我喜欢这个想法，嗯，我必须说，我绝对相信我的内心，我只是觉得这是一种感觉，孩子们本质上都是善良的。
I can't imagine any other version of that.
我无法想象任何其他版本。
But does that mean that there are people out there who believe that kids are inherently bad or at least not good?
但这是否意味着有人认为孩子本质上是坏的或至少不是好人？
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
I don't-
我不-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
How could that be?
怎么可能呢？
But then again, maybe I'm just naive.
但话又说回来，也许我只是太天真了。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
I don't know if anyone consciously believes that, but when I go back to that system I was first trained in, rewards and punishments, it feels like a system of behavioral control.
我不知道是否有人有意识地相信这一点，但当我回到我最初接受训练的奖励和惩罚系统时，感觉就像是一个行为控制系统。
And to me, I've always thought about control and trust as opposites.
对我来说，我一直认为控制和信任是对立的。
So I only control what I don't trust.
所以我只控制我不信任的东西。
So nobody said to me in that program, "By the way, Becky, everything you're learning here, we believe kids are bad inside, and so we do this thing." But, well, if I don't trust my kid, and if I don't trust they inherently have the things in them to do good, by the way, that's not going to happen naturally.
所以在那个节目中没有人对我说，“顺便说一句，贝基，你在这里学到的一切，我们相信孩子们的内心都是不好的，所以我们做了这件事。”但是，好吧，如果我不相信我的孩子，如果我不相信他们天生就有行善的能力，顺便说一句，这就不会自然发生。
That's why we have a big job as a parent to coach our kids, to bring that out, to set boundaries when they can't do it, and so many other things.
这就是为什么我们作为父母有一项重要的工作来指导我们的孩子，将其带出来，在他们做不到的时候设定界限，以及许多其他事情。
But I don't believe anyone would say, "Yeah, it's because they're bad inside." But there is a nature where you're constantly interacting with your kid from that other system, looking at them like, "I don't trust you.
但我不相信有人会说：“是的，那是因为他们内心不好。”但有一种天性，你会不断地与另一个系统中的孩子互动，看着他们就像是，“我不相信你。
And when you do bad things, I cannot hold on to the fact that you have a good identity.
当你做坏事的时候，我就无法坚持你有一个好的身份。
That's why I'm giving you a punishment.
这就是我给你惩罚的原因。
That's why I'm sending you away to your room." And so if I'm reflecting back to you constantly that you are just your latest behavior, that I don't trust you, that I have to bribe you to do very basic human things.
所以我才送你回房间去。”因此，如果我不断地向你反映，你只是你最近的行为，我不信任你，我必须贿赂你去做一些非常基本的人类事情。
Well, our kids form their identity from our reflection of them.
嗯，我们的孩子通过我们对他们的反思来形成他们的身份。
And so then this is what really compelled all this.
所以这才是真正迫使这一切发生的原因。
I'm like, we're raising generation after generation of kid, saying to them, "You're kind of a bad, untrustworthy kid." And then we wonder why we have such high rates of massive mental health problems.
我想，我们正在抚养一代又一代的孩子，对他们说，“你是一个坏孩子，不值得信任。”然后我们想知道为什么我们有如此高的严重心理健康问题发生率。
Well, there's some linearity there.
嗯，那里有一些线性。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm curious about this notion of impingement.
我对这种撞击的概念很好奇。
I've heard about this idea that when we're young, we're forging life, deciding, do I like the way this tastes or not taste.
我听说过这样的想法，当我们年轻的时候，我们正在锻造生活，决定，我喜欢还是不喜欢这种味道。
By the way, I still hate anchovies.
顺便说一句，我仍然讨厌凤尾鱼。
I don't need to be asked again to know the answer.
我不需要再次被问到就知道答案。
But when you're young, we're encouraged to do things like eat your broccoli, taste the anchovy.
但当你年轻的时候，我们被鼓励做一些事情，比如吃西兰花、尝尝凤尾鱼。
And some parents, it seems, are very comfortable with the idea of allowing their children to have their feelings and their wishes.
一些父母似乎很乐意让孩子表达自己的感受和愿望。
As I always say, the nervous system seems to be divided into yum yucks and meh, mehs.
正如我常说的，神经系统似乎分为“yum yucks”和“meh, mehs”。
I guess the plural will be mehs.
我猜复数是mehs。
Yum yucks and mehs.
嗯，恶心和无聊。
It's more complicated than that, but with people where you're like, "Yeah, I really like them," or, "No, something's off there," like, "Meh." So it's not that much more nuanced than that, and the brain's got to make decisions after all.
事情比这更复杂，但是对于那些你会说“是的，我真的很喜欢他们”或者“不，有些不对劲”的人，比如“嗯”。因此，事情并没有那么微妙，毕竟大脑必须做出决定。
Excuse me.
打扰一下。
So kids have their yums, yucks, and mehs, and then we've got our ideas about what they need to do in order to progress through life, often inherited from our parents and hopefully modified by the wonderful work that you're doing and writing about and in your program that we're talking about here.
所以孩子们有他们的好吃、恶心和无聊，然后我们就得到了他们需要做什么才能在生活中取得进步的想法，这些想法通常是从我们的父母那里继承下来的，并希望通过你正在做和写的以及我们在这里讨论的项目中的精彩工作来修改。
But how much space should we allow for kids to be unimpinged?
但我们应该给孩子留出多大的空间才能不受干扰呢？
Like, "You don't want to eat what we're eating for dinner?
就像，“你不想吃我们晚餐吃的东西吗？
Okay, I'm not going to cook you an entire new dinner, but then I guess you might go to bed hungry." Sounds harsh.
好吧，我不会给你做一顿全新的晚餐，但我猜你可能会饿着肚子上床睡觉。”听起来很刺耳。
But the other version is, "Okay, what would you like for dinner?" Well, I prefer-- Let's say they pick a healthy option.
但另一个版本是，“好吧，你晚餐想吃什么？”好吧，我更喜欢——假设他们选择了一个健康的选择。
They prefer pasta, not chicken.
他们更喜欢面食，而不是鸡肉。
Okay, we won't do the ice cream chicken-
好吧，我们不做冰淇淋鸡了-
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Sure
当然可以
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
thing.
事。
Do we do it?
我们做吗？
How much impingement?
冲击力有多大？
I don't want to watch a movie with the family.
我不想和家人一起看电影。
I want to play in my room.
我想在我的房间里玩。
At some level, I've heard it both ways, that impingement is needed for safety and life progression, but there's times when it's more subtle than that.
在某种程度上，我听到过两种说法，即为了安全和生命的进步，撞击是必要的，但有时它比这更微妙。
It's not about safety and life progression.
这与安全和生活进步无关。
It's not about going to school or not going to school, homework or no homework.
这不是上学或不上学、做作业或不做作业的问题。
It's about, "Do you want to come with us to the park?
它是关于“你想和我们一起去公园吗？
You want to play at home in your room?"
你想在家里的房间里玩吗？”
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
How often should we impinge?
我们应该多久撞击一次？
How do we know?
我们怎么知道？
These are the tricky areas of parenting that I think- Because it doesn't fall into the extremes.
我认为这些是养育子女的棘手领域——因为它不会陷入极端。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yeah.
是的。
I love this question.
我喜欢这个问题。
That's a word I don't often hear, actually.
其实这个词我不常听到。
Impingement, can you actually, what, definition-wise?
撞击，你实际上可以定义什么吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, like impinging on the child's in-
是的，就像撞击孩子的阴部——
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
What they want?
他们想要什么？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
inherent natural desires or aversion to things.
与生俱来的自然欲望或对事物的厌恶。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Got it.
明白了。
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
Like you say, "Hey, we're going over so-and-so's house," and they say, "You know, I don't like their kids."
就像你说的，“嘿，我们要去某某的房子，”他们说，“你知道，我不喜欢他们的孩子。”
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You go, "Well, listen, you've got to learn to play with other kids." And they go-
你会说：“好吧，听着，你必须学会和其他孩子一起玩。”他们走了——
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
"No, I don't like their kids."
“不，我不喜欢他们的孩子。”
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And you say, "Did something happen?" And so we're not talking about a dangerous situation.
你说：“发生什么事了吗？”所以我们不是在谈论危险的情况。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But they're like, "No, I don't like them.
但他们会说：“不，我不喜欢他们。
I just really want to just stay home."
我真的只想呆在家里。”
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yeah.
是的。
This is a great-
这是一个伟大的——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
So are we going to impinge on their-- Because either way, we're teaching them something.
那么我们是否会影响他们——因为无论哪种方式，我们都在教他们一些东西。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You got to do stuff you don't want to do, even if you don't like it.
你必须做你不想做的事情，即使你不喜欢它。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And here again, we're ruling out the possibility that there's-
在这里，我们再次排除以下可能性——
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Of course
当然
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
something unsafe about the environment-
环境中存在不安全因素——
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
psychologically or physically unsafe.
心理上或身体上不安全。
But at the same time, we're teaching them, "Hey, I see you, I hear you, but your desires might not be right." There's actually a kind of tacit message of, the way you feel might not be the best gauge of what's best for you, which sends-
但与此同时，我们教导他们，“嘿，我看到你，我听到你的声音，但你的愿望可能不对。”实际上有一种默认的信息，你的感觉可能不是衡量什么最适合你的最佳标准，这会发出——
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Mm
毫米
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
a complicated message to a kid.
给一个孩子的复杂信息。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Totally.
完全可以。
So this is again where I think at Good Inside, family jobs are so useful.
所以这也是我在 Good Inside 认为家庭工作非常有用的地方。
Family jobs to me, when I used to meet with parents, and they'd describe a situation, I feel like 90% of the time, that's where I'd start.
对我来说，家庭工作，当我过去和父母见面时，他们会描述一种情况，我觉得 90% 的情况下，这就是我开始的地方。
Because then that flows from there.
因为那是从那里流出的。
It's like a framework.
它就像一个框架。
So wait, what is my job?
等等，我的工作是什么？
I'm the one who sets boundaries.
我是那个设定界限的人。
I am the one who makes key family decisions.
我是做出重要家庭决定的人。
Obviously, as our kids get older, they should be making some decisions, too.
显然，随着我们的孩子长大，他们也应该做出一些决定。
No one likes to feel controlled.
没有人喜欢被控制的感觉。
But key decisions.
但关键的决定。
And my job is to validate my kid's experience.
我的工作是验证我孩子的经历。
This is actually complicated because, again, over and over, we think that validating my kid's experience means they're going to dictate a decision.
这实际上很复杂，因为我们一遍又一遍地认为验证我孩子的经历意味着他们将做出决定。
My boundaries don't dictate my kid's feelings, and my kid's feelings should not dictate my boundaries.
我的界限不能决定我孩子的感受，我孩子的感受也不应该决定我的界限。
They're just two equal things.
它们只是两个平等的东西。
So this is a great example.
这是一个很好的例子。
My kid's just like, "You know I don't like playing with those kids, and can I just stay home with..." Let's just say Grandma was home.
我的孩子就像是，“你知道我不喜欢和那些孩子一起玩，我可以呆在家里......”我们就说奶奶在家吧。
"Can I just stay home?" And I'm like, "I just think it's important to go as a family," but my kid doesn't want to go.
“我可以呆在家里吗？”我想，“我只是认为作为一个家庭去很重要”，但我的孩子不想去。
There's nothing dangerous.
没有什么危险的。
Okay.
好的。
To me, this is that exact way of putting family jobs into action.
对我来说，这正是将家庭工作付诸实践的方式。
"Sweetie," and to me, this phrase, I wish every parent could say this to their kid, "I believe you." If you want to make a kid feel real and confident for life, confidence comes from the experience of being believed.
“亲爱的，”对我来说，这句话，我希望每个父母都能对他们的孩子说，“我相信你。”如果你想让孩子对生活感到真实和自信，自信就来自于被相信的经历。
For me, confidence is self-trust.
对我来说，自信就是自信。
It's not feeling good about yourself, it's self-trust.
这不是自我感觉良好，而是自信。
I really do know the way I feel.
我真的知道我的感受。
So let's say I say to my son in that situation, it's, "I believe you." I'd start that way.
假设我在那种情况下对我儿子说，“我相信你。”我会这样开始。
"I believe you.
“我相信你。
Look, I know you want to play football all day, and the kid around your age hates football.
听着，我知道你想整天踢足球，而你这个年纪的孩子讨厌足球。
Like that would probably be lowest on your list of types of kids you'd want to hang out with for the afternoon.
就像你想在下午一起出去玩的孩子类型列表中，这可能是最低的。
I totally believe you.
我完全相信你。
And in this family, we know that sometimes we have to do things we don't love to do.
在这个家庭中，我们知道有时我们必须做我们不喜欢做的事情。
We do that for a family experience." I say this to my kid all the time.
我们这样做是为了获得家庭体验。”我一直对我的孩子这么说。
"Also, just to end up being a good adult, you just have to end up practicing as a kid, doing things you don't want to do, things that are boring, things that aren't your preference.
“而且，为了最终成为一个好成年人，你只需要像个孩子一样练习，做你不想做的事情，做一些无聊的事情，做那些不是你喜欢的事情。
And so, you notch in your belt for that.
所以，你为此在腰带上打了一个记号。
So you don't have to thank me.
所以你不用谢我。
And also, I know you have it in you to do your best to be polite and engaged.
而且，我知道你有能力尽力保持礼貌和投入。
I know you're a good kid, and this isn't what you want, and I know we're going to get through it." Now, if it's really hard, maybe young, "Hey, let's create a sign.
我知道你是个好孩子，这不是你想要的，我知道我们会渡过难关的。”现在，如果这真的很难，也许是年轻人，“嘿，让我们制作一个标牌。
Can you look at me and go, make a when you feel like you're kind of at this, and then me and you, we're going to go to the bathroom.
你能看着我，然后走开，当你觉得自己有这样的能力时，然后我和你，我们要去洗手间。
I'm going to give you a hug, and I'm going to say, 'I know this isn't what you want, and when we get home, we could watch that football game,'" whatever it was, right?
我会给你一个拥抱，我会说，‘我知道这不是你想要的，当我们回到家时，我们可以看那场足球比赛，’”不管是什么，对吧？
Because what we often do is we leave ourselves with two choices with kids.
因为我们经常做的就是让自己对孩子有两种选择。
We either say, "Fine, stay home." Their feelings actually just dictated the decision.
我们要么说：“好吧，呆在家里。”他们的感受实际上决定了这个决定。
That's not helpful for them.
这对他们没有帮助。
I don't want my kid to learn in life, when I don't want to do something, people twist and turn to make that thing not happen.
我不想让我的孩子在生活中学习，当我不想做某事时，人们会千方百计阻止那件事发生。
That's disturbing for adulthood expectations.
这对成年期望来说是令人不安的。
But then we do the other thing, which is like, "You are so selfish.
但随后我们又做了另一件事，比如，“你太自私了。
Just because you don't have a friend your age doesn't mean that you can't come with us." So we either let their feelings dictate, or we think our boundaries kind of give us the right to be mad at our kid, right?
仅仅因为你没有同龄的朋友并不意味着你不能和我们一起去。”所以我们要么让他们的感受决定，要么我们认为我们的界限赋予我们对孩子生气的权利，对吧？
To do both is so important.
两者兼得非常重要。
And so that's where I think, to me, when I hear impingement, I actually think that is the exact space where you have the most bang for your buck as a parent.
所以这就是我认为，对我来说，当我听到撞击时，我实际上认为这正是作为父母最能赚钱的地方。
It's not enjoyable, and again, if I have my beautiful intervention with my son, do not think my kid will look at me and say, "I love how you explain that.
这并不令人愉快，而且，如果我对我的儿子进行了精彩的干预，不要认为我的孩子会看着我说：“我喜欢你的解释。
That was so beautiful." No. He's going to roll his eyes.
那真是太美了。”不，他会翻白眼的。
My job is not to take the bait because I'm an adult, and to also hold hope.
我的工作不是因为我是成年人而上钩，而是抱有希望。
I think that's really important, this concept of, I'm validating my kid's feelings where they are today, but I need to be the one to hold hope that they can cope with it.
我认为这非常重要，这个概念是，我正在验证我孩子今天的感受，但我需要成为那个对他们能够应对这一情况抱有希望的人。
If I can't name to my kid, "I know you're going to get through it," they're not going to be able to see that kind of next, more mature version of themselves.
如果我不能对我的孩子说：“我知道你会挺过去的”，他们就看不到下一个、更成熟的自己。
And I actually think it's the same as your best boss.
事实上我认为这和你最好的老板是一样的。
It's like, "I know you don't want to go on this trip." Whatever it is.
就像是，“我知道你不想参加这次旅行。”不管是什么。
"I know this presentation topic isn't the one you would've chosen, and there were 10 things, and this was literally number 10.
“我知道这个演示主题不是你会选择的主题，有 10 件事，而这实际上是第 10 件事。
I totally get that, and it stinks, and I'm not taking anything away from that.
我完全明白这一点，而且它很臭，而且我不会从中拿走任何东西。
And this is the thing I need you to do.
这就是我需要你做的事情。
And I know something about you.
我对你有所了解。
When you put your mind to something, you always do a great job.
当你全神贯注于一件事时，你总是能做得很好。
And it's probably not going to be enjoyable, but I do know you're going to do a great job on this." That's like the boss you want.
这可能不会令人愉快，但我确实知道你会在这方面做得很好。”这就是你想要的老板。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Amazing.
太棒了。
Are you adopting children, by the way?
顺便问一下，你收养孩子吗？
Because I finished college.
因为我大学毕业了。
And I actually, I lie with-
事实上，我躺着-
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
You, I'd consider, Andrew.
我会考虑你，安德鲁。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay, all right.
好吧，好吧。
Thanks.
谢谢。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
You.
你。
Adult children.
成人儿童。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What I'm hearing is, don't dictate their behavior, and I'm going to underline in bold dictate.
我听到的是，不要命令他们的行为，我将用粗体命令强调。
Don't dictate their behavior.
不要规定他们的行为。
"You're going to do this because I said so."
“你会这么做，因为我这么说了。”
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's dictatorship.
这就是独裁。
But at the same time, don't quash the emotion behind the resistance.
但与此同时，不要压制抵制背后的情绪。
Acknowledge it, make them feel real.
承认这一点，让他们感到真实。
"I believe you."
“我相信你。”
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I love this phrase.
我喜欢这句话。
Amazing.
惊人的。
And I love your definition of confidence.
我喜欢你对自信的定义。
If people didn't hear that, we're definitely going to repeat it again and We're going to etch it into your neural circuitry because I love that.
如果人们没有听到，我们肯定会再次重复，并且我们会将其铭刻到您的神经回路中，因为我喜欢这一点。
It's a self-trust.
这是一种自信。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And this notion of giving hope.
以及这种给予希望的理念。
You're giving them an incentive that's based on a reward that's actually good for them, that they can translate to other situations as well.
你给他们的激励是基于对他们实际上有益的奖励，他们也可以将其转化为其他情况。
Wow.
哇。
So much there.
就这么多。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Can I double-click on reward?
我可以双击奖励吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Please.
请。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Because you know what it made me think?
因为你知道这让我想到了什么？
I didn't think until you said that.
我没想到直到你这么说。
I think in a situation where you'd be tempted to say, "And if you go and you're polite, I'll give you 20 extra minutes of Roblox." First of all, let me just say something.
我认为在这种情况下，你可能会想说：“如果你去并且有礼貌，我会给你额外 20 分钟的 Roblox。”首先，我先说几句。
Whatever I say to you, for listeners, it's not like I do this stuff all the time with my actual kids.
无论我对你们说什么，对于听众来说，我并不总是对我真正的孩子做这些事情。
I'm the first one sometimes to be like, "Here's your thing I have to dangle."
有时我是第一个说：“这是你的东西，我必须悬挂。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We'll provide a little section in the comment section on YouTube where your kids can-- No, I'm just kidding.
我们将在 YouTube 上的评论部分提供一个小部分，您的孩子可以在那里 - 不，我只是在开玩笑。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yeah, exactly.
是的，完全正确。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Your kids are forbidden.
你的孩子是被禁止的。
No. Ooh, wait, that's dictating.
不，哦，等等，这是命令。
We understand why, I believe that you would want to comment.
我们明白为什么，我相信您会想发表评论。
But we're going to let you know why it's good for you if you don't.
但如果您不这样做，我们会让您知道为什么这对您有好处。
Anyway.
反正。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'll practice this on someone else's kids someday.
有一天我会在别人的孩子身上练习这个。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
But the reward, when your kid ends up seeing themself capable of doing something they didn't previously think they could do, you know better than me, I feel like that is one of the best rewards.
但是奖励，当你的孩子最终看到自己有能力做一些他们以前认为自己不能做的事情时，你比我更清楚，我觉得这是最好的奖励之一。
Even if it's getting through a social situation, or I think about this a lot with my little kid is struggling with a puzzle or something, and I could just do it for them.
即使是在经历社交场合，或者我经常思考这个问题，因为我的小孩正在为拼图或其他东西而苦苦挣扎，我也可以为他们做这件事。
Or if I help them kind of regulate, "Oh, this is a hard puzzle, and you can take a break.
或者如果我帮助他们进行调节，“哦，这是一个很难的谜题，你可以休息一下。
I just know you're going to figure it out today.
我只知道今天你会明白的。
I just know it." And then because of that, they get there.
我只是知道而已。”正因为如此，他们才到达那里。
That feels in your body, like that is the best kind of reward.
这种感觉在你的身体里，就像这是最好的奖励。
And it's the type of reward that works for kids in adulthood.
这对于成年后的孩子来说是一种有效的奖励。
When they're in a job, we want them to be motivated by the feeling they're going to have of pride.
当他们从事工作时，我们希望他们能够受到自豪感的激励。
Not be saying, "Hey, I finished my thing early.
不要说：“嘿，我提前完成了我的事情。
Do I get a bonus?" to their boss.
我能得到奖金吗？”给他们的老板。
That's not going to play out as well.
这也不会发挥作用。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I love it.
我喜欢它。
I'm just pausing and shaking my head only because I love it so much.
我只是停下来摇摇头，只是因为我太喜欢它了。
And I just want to make sure that I don't quickly move to the next question without drilling down even deeper into-
我只是想确保我不会在没有深入研究的情况下快速转向下一个问题-
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
some of these concepts.
其中一些概念。
"I believe you" as the feedback or response that can instill real confidence over time.
“我相信你”作为反馈或回应，可以随着时间的推移逐渐灌输真正的信心。
Not to get too nuanced here, but how is it different, because I sense it is different than, "I hear you."
不要在这里说得太细致，但它有什么不同，因为我感觉它与“我听到你了”不同。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
"I hear you, but-
“我听到了，但是——
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
you're going to do this anyway."
无论如何你都会这么做。”
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or, "I hear you, but listen, in this family," da, da, da, da.
或者，“我听到你的声音，但是听着，在这个家庭里，”达，达，达，达。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
"I believe you." The word believe is powerful, and I believe there's real power in specific words.
“我相信你。”相信这个词是有力量的，我相信具体的词有真正的力量。
As is, for instance, sturdiness.
例如，坚固性。
Again, that's such a powerful and underused word.
再说一次，这是一个如此强大但未被充分利用的词。
"I believe you."
“我相信你。”
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You're a psychologist.
你是一名心理学家。
What do you think we're hearing when somebody says, "I believe you," that's different than, "I hear you"?
当有人说“我相信你”与“我听到你的声音”时，你认为我们听到的是什么呢？
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
I haven't listed these out, but I think we all have these core needs as humans, and I think being believed is one of them because it's someone else kind of saying, "You're real.
我没有列出这些，但我认为我们作为人类都有这些核心需求，我认为被相信是其中之一，因为这是别人在说，“你是真实的。
I might not feel what you're feeling, but that thing that feels strong to you, that nobody can see or measure, is real." And when I think about the most confident people, I think about this girl who I went to Duke with, and she was just brilliant, so smart, and we were in this seminar.
我可能感受不到你的感受，但你感觉强烈、没有人能看到或衡量的东西是真实的。”当我想到最自信的人时，我想到了和我一起去杜克大学的这个女孩，她非常聪明，非常聪明，我们参加了这个研讨会。
It was one of these small classes where this professor was talking about stuff, and I for once, I was like, "I have no idea what this person's talking about." But no one else was stopping, and this girl raised her hand, and she said, "I'm sorry if everyone else, this is annoying.
这是一个小班，这位教授在谈论一些东西，而我有一次，我想，“我不知道这个人在说什么。”但没有人停下来，这个女孩举起了手，她说：“对不起，如果其他人，这很烦人。
I have no idea what you're talking about.
我不知道你在说什么。
Because I usually do, and is there any way you could say that in a different way?" That is to me, the utmost version of confidence.
因为我通常会这样做，你有什么办法可以用不同的方式来表达吗？”对我来说，这就是最大的自信。
That she believed her own experience of confusion was real confusion.
她相信自己的困惑经历才是真正的困惑。
She didn't think it was a sign she was stupid.
她不认为这是她愚蠢的表现。
She believed it.
她相信了。
She believed herself.
她相信自己。
That is so confident.
就是这么自信。
And I think when someone says, "I hear you," it's like a version of listening.
我认为当有人说“我听到你的声音”时，这就像一种倾听。
There's many worse phrases.
还有很多更糟糕的短语。
No damage is done.
没有造成任何损坏。
When we follow anything with "but," we tend to invalidate, so that's not good anyway.
当我们在任何事情后面加上“但是”时，我们往往会变得无效，所以无论如何这都不好。
"I believe you, but," is also not going to-- But there's a million examples of this to me that build confidence, and I actually think there's so many situations with kids where they say situations, and we worry, "Oh, they have low confidence," and then we intervene to, quote, "make them feel better," which actually is the thing that lowers their confidence because it's like we say to them, "I don't believe you.
“我相信你，但是，”也不会——但对我来说，有上百万个这样的例子可以建立信心，我实际上认为，在很多情况下，孩子们在说出情况时，我们会担心，“哦，他们信心不足，”然后我们进行干预，引用，“让他们感觉好一点，”这实际上是降低他们信心的事情，因为这就像我们对他们说，“我不相信你。
You're not really feeling the way you feel." Where "I believe you" is the exact opposite.
你并没有真正感受到你的感受。”而“我相信你”则恰恰相反。
So, I like to give examples just because it makes it concrete.
所以，我喜欢举例子，因为它更具体。
Like my kid will come home and say, I don't know, "I was picked last for dodgeball today." "I was picked last in something." And they're clearly very sad, right?
就像我的孩子回家后会说，我不知道，“今天我是最后被选中参加躲避球的。” “我在某件事上是最后被选中的。”他们显然非常悲伤，对吧？
And we want to say to them, "It's no big deal," or, "Everyone's picked last sometimes," or, "But remember yesterday you told me you were picked first for basketball?" And we think like, "I need to build up my kid's confidence." Those are confidence, I don't want to say destroying, that's too-- reducing interventions.
我们想对他们说，“这没什么大不了的”，或者，“有时每个人都是最后被选中的”，或者，“但是还记得昨天你告诉我你在篮球方面是第一个被选中的吗？”我们会想，“我需要增强孩子的信心。”这些都是信心，我不想说是破坏，那也是——减少干预。
Because a kid is kind of coming to a parent basically saying, "I'm very upset that I was picked last." And we're saying to a kid, "No you weren't." And they're like, "But I am." And what they learn is, and this is really terrifying to me, is other people are better feelers of my feelings than I am.
因为孩子对父母来说基本上会说：“我很沮丧，我最后被选中了。”我们对一个孩子说：“不，你不是。”他们就像，“但我是。”他们学到的是，这对我来说真的很可怕，其他人比我更能感受我的感受。
And that has a million really scary interpersonal, I think, relationship kind of consequences later down in life.
我认为，这会在以后的生活中产生一百万种非常可怕的人际关系后果。
But when a kid says, "I was picked last, and nobody even wants me, and they all think I'm the worst athlete," whatever kids say, to sit and say some version of, "I'm so glad we're talking about this, and I can tell that was a really hard gym class.
但是当一个孩子说，“我是最后被选中的，甚至没有人想要我，他们都认为我是最差的运动员”，无论孩子说什么，坐下来说一些版本，“我很高兴我们正在谈论这个，我可以看出这是一堂非常艰苦的体育课。
And sweetie- I believe you.
亲爱的——我相信你。
You will watch your kid.
你会看着你的孩子。
It is crazy to me what parents tell me happen when they say those words to their kids.
对我来说，父母告诉我当他们对孩子说这些话时会发生什么，这真是太疯狂了。
They're like, "It also just literally diffused everything," and they were ready to move on.
他们就像，“它实际上也扩散了一切，”他们准备继续前进。
They are just trying to tell you probably, "I was feeling something.
他们可能只是想告诉你，“我有某种感觉。
It was a lot.
这是很多。
It was confusing." Our feelings are always hardest when we're alone in them, so I was alone in it, and I bring it to you.
这很令人困惑。”当我们独自一人时，我们的感情总是最艰难的，所以我独自一人，我把它带给你。
When someone says, "I believe you," not only are they giving you that core need, they're also just sitting down with you in it, and that makes everything better.
当有人说“我相信你”时，他们不仅满足了你的核心需求，而且还坐下来和你一起参与其中，这让一切变得更好。
And then meanwhile, what a kid feels like when we say, "I believe you" to a hard experience or hard feeling is, they're like, "The feelings that overwhelm me don't overwhelm my parents.
与此同时，当我们对艰难的经历或艰难的感觉说“我相信你”时，孩子的感受是，“压倒我的感觉不会压倒我的父母。
They can tolerate it.
他们可以忍受。
They're not scared of me kind of being a loser in gym class one day.
他们并不害怕我有一天在体育课上成为失败者。
And if my parent likes me when I have that feeling, I can start to like myself when I have that feeling."
如果我的父母在我有这种感觉时喜欢我，那么当我有这种感觉时我就能开始喜欢自己。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's so great because it sounds like it accomplishes both things.
它太棒了，因为听起来它可以完成这两件事。
It makes kids feel real and safe.
它让孩子们感到真实和安全。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Real and safe.
真实、安全。
And, I can't help but ask, say, because how we started off today was that this isn't just about parent-child relationships, but in friendships and romantic relationships-
而且，我忍不住要问，比如说，因为我们今天的出发点是，这不仅仅是亲子关系，还有友谊和恋爱关系——
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in coworker relationships, that the words "I believe you," I have to presume, based on everything I'm hearing now and feeling inside about it, that it's equally effective.
在同事关系中，“我相信你”这句话，根据我现在听到的一切和内心的感受，我必须假设它同样有效。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Huge.
巨大的。
Years ago, I was on a podcast early on, and to me, there are these three lines that kind of all go together when kids are-- anyone's upset, and it's like you start-- And to me, it's like a beautiful invitation to have that conversation, just to say to someone, "I'm so glad you're talking to me about this." And then kind of, "I believe you.
几年前，我很早就参加了一个播客，对我来说，当孩子们感到不安时，这三句台词就会组合在一起——任何人都感到不安，就像你开始一样——对我来说，这就像一个美丽的邀请，让我们进行这样的对话，只是对某人说，“我很高兴你和我谈论这件事。”然后有点像，“我相信你。
Tell me more." And my husband, when he heard it, was like, "You could say those words to me sometimes.
告诉我更多。”我的丈夫听到后说，“有时你可以对我说这些话。
I would like that." And I think about the workplace, too.
我希望如此。”我也想到了工作场所。
You have someone come in, they're upset about, "I don't know.
有人进来，他们很沮丧，“我不知道。
I got staffed on this," or, "I'm not getting a promotion and I thought I was." Just diffuse it with just, "I'm so glad you're talking to me about this." "Yeah, I've been working nonstop for..." And if you say to them, "I believe you." Because we usually don't say to someone, "I don't believe you." But what we'll say is we defend ourselves in that moment, and the way the other person receives it is as if we're saying, "I don't believe the intensity of the experience you're having." And when you do lead with "I believe you," same thing in a partnership.
我在这方面有工作人员，”或者，“我没有得到升职，而我以为我得到了。”只需这样来扩散它，“我很高兴你能和我谈论这件事。”“是的，我一直在不停地工作......”如果你对他们说，“我相信你。”因为我们通常不会对某人说，“我不相信你。”但我们要说的是，我们在那一刻为自己辩护，而其他人接受它的方式是就好像我们在说，“我不相信你所经历的强度。”当你以“我相信你”来领导时，在伙伴关系中也是如此。
Like, "Every time I ask you to do something, you get really hot and bothered." It doesn't even mean you agree.
就像，“每次我要求你做某事时，你都会变得非常烦躁和烦恼。”这甚至并不意味着你同意。
You're kind of just believing.
你只是相信而已。
"I believe you.
“我相信你。
Tell me more." Or, "I believe you that that really upset you.
告诉我更多。”或者，“我相信这让你很沮丧。
And obviously, I have a whole other story in my head, but I hear what you're saying and I know there's something there, and I believe it enough to be open to hearing more about it." I don't know.
显然，我脑子里有一个完全不同的故事，但我听到你在说什么，我知道那里有一些东西，我相信它足以让我愿意听到更多关于它的信息。”我不知道。
That's what's best.
这才是最好的。
That's what we all want in our partnerships.
这就是我们在合作伙伴关系中所希望的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
I'm wide-eyed.
我睁大了眼睛。
What a beautiful acknowledgement that, as you pointed out, is not agreeing to accept someone else's reality to the extent that you're going to dismantle the order of the world or whatever it is.
正如你所指出的，这是多么美好的承认，不同意接受别人的现实，以至于你要摧毁世界秩序或其他任何东西。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But it's such an opening as opposed to a closing.
但这是一个开放，而不是一个结束。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And as you said, it's non-defended, but it's also boundaried.
正如你所说，它是不设防的，但也是有边界的。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There's just so many things about it that feel good, seem good, and clearly are good.
它有很多东西让人感觉良好、看起来良好、而且显然是良好的。
I don't want to go down the tragic rabbit hole of trauma, but previous-
我不想陷入创伤的悲惨兔子洞，但之前——
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
guests on this podcast, we should probably define trauma just because it gets thrown around a lot.
这个播客的嘉宾们，我们也许应该定义创伤，因为它经常被抛来抛去。
Trauma, an event or set of circumstances that fundamentally change the way that the brain and nervous system work, so that there's a maladaptive response going forward.
创伤是从根本上改变大脑和神经系统工作方式的事件或一系列情况，从而导致未来出现适应不良反应。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's not every bad thing that happens.
并不是所有的坏事都会发生。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But there are microtraumas, sometimes called small T.
但也存在微创伤，有时称为小 T。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
More macro traumas, big T.
更多宏观创伤，大T。
Again, could be multi-event or single event.
同样，可以是多事件或单一事件。
But years ago, a different psychologist, psychiatrist, who's an adolescent psychiatrist at Stanford, said something in a seminar that just really struck me, which was that at its core, trauma is really about confusion over who's responsible.
但几年前，另一位心理学家、精神病学家，斯坦福大学的青少年精神病学家，在一次研讨会上说了一些让我印象深刻的话，那就是，创伤的核心在于对谁应该负责的困惑。
And here we're not just talking about the more salient examples of sexual assault.
在这里，我们不仅仅谈论更突出的性侵犯例子。
Those, too, of course.
当然，这些也是如此。
But if we get screamed at, or we observe something, like third-person trauma.
但如果我们被尖叫，或者我们观察到一些东西，比如第三人称创伤。
The logical stance is, "Well, okay, that was them, not me." But when this happens, especially when we're young, the nervous system, the brain, somehow interprets this as, "I was there.
合乎逻辑的立场是：“好吧，那是他们，不是我。”但当这种情况发生时，尤其是当我们年轻的时候，神经系统、大脑会以某种方式将其解释为：“我当时就在那里。
I had a role in it just by being there.
我只要在那里就可以在其中发挥作用。
So what was my role?" And somehow, the emotional response becomes one of responsibility, even if we know-
那么我的角色是什么？”不知何故，情绪反应变成了责任之一，即使我们知道——
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
they're clearly the one that initiated this.
他们显然是发起这一事件的人。
And so, the reason I'm bringing this up in this context is that it's almost like that lack of belief in self somehow gets rooted in, and then it all feels confusing, and then we don't feel safe.
所以，我在这种情况下提出这个问题的原因是，这几乎就像是对自我缺乏信心以某种方式根深蒂固，然后这一切都让人感到困惑，然后我们就感到不安全。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because it's a confusion about responsibility.
因为这是对责任的混淆。
Again, going back to these words.
再次回到这些话。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Can we go down that rabbit hole for a second?
我们可以深入那个兔子洞吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Please.
请。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's why I raised it.
这就是我提出这个问题的原因。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Because I think that-
因为我认为——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I want your thoughts, not mine
我想要你的想法，而不是我的
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
...
...
I always think trauma is actually not events.
我一直认为创伤实际上不是事件。
It's the way an event gets processed.
这是处理事件的方式。
And I love Gabor Maté's definition of trauma.
我喜欢 Gabor Maté 对创伤的定义。
"It's not what happens to you, it's what happens inside of you." So to me, there's an inherent relationality there, where events that get processed-- Not any event, events with high emotionality, let's say, that get processed in aloneness become traumatic.
“这不是发生在你身上的事情，而是发生在你内心的事情。”所以对我来说，那里有一种内在的关系，在这种关系中，被处理的事件——不是任何事件，比如说，在孤独中处理的具有高度情绪化的事件都会变成创伤。
And I think that's where it gets linked to responsibility.
我认为这就是它与责任联系在一起的地方。
So this is actually what my TED Talk was about and why repair is so important.
这实际上就是我 TED 演讲的主题，也是为什么修复如此重要。
Who said this?
这句话是谁说的？
Ronald Fairbairn years ago.
罗纳德·费尔贝恩几年前。
That for kids, it is better to be a sinner in a world ruled by God than to live in a world ruled by the devil.
对于孩子们来说，在上帝统治的世界里做一个罪人，比生活在魔鬼统治的世界里要好。
I think it explains almost everything about child development right there.
我认为它几乎解释了有关儿童发展的一切。
Going back to goodness, also Your parent just screamed at you.
回到善良上来，你的父母也刚刚对你尖叫。
And by the way, your parent.
顺便说一下，你的父母。
I scream at my kids.
我对我的孩子们尖叫。
Everyone's going to scream at their kids.
每个人都会对自己的孩子尖叫。
It's going to happen.
这将会发生。
Okay?
好吧？
That's just the event.
这就是事件。
The event's not going to have the impact.
该事件不会产生影响。
What is happening for a kid?
孩子发生了什么事？
Well, we know kids are oriented by attachment.
嗯，我们知道孩子们是以依恋为导向的。
They literally need us to survive.
他们确实需要我们才能生存。
They could not survive on their own.
他们无法靠自己生存。
And so what do you do when the person you're dependent on for safety becomes the source of danger and threat?
那么，当您所依赖的安全来源成为危险和威胁的来源时，您该怎么办？
That's very confusing for a child in that moment.
那一刻对于一个孩子来说是非常困惑的。
So they're super hyper-aroused.
所以他们非常兴奋。
They're in this state of terror.
他们正处于这种恐怖的状态。
And then usually after, in my house too, I just yell at my kid.
然后通常在我家里，我也会对我的孩子大喊大叫。
They're kind of alone in their room.
他们在自己的房间里有点孤单。
I'm alone in the kitchen or wherever, meanwhile spinning, because I'm like, "I'm such a bad parent." But meanwhile, because I'm so lost in my own guilt, I might not be going to my kid.
我独自一人在厨房或任何地方，同时旋转，因为我想，“我真是一个糟糕的父母。”但与此同时，因为我沉浸在自己的罪恶感中，我可能不会去找我的孩子。
And so what happens for my kid if I don't repair after I scream at them or one of these events, right?
那么，如果我在对我的孩子尖叫或发生这些事件之一后不修复，会发生什么，对吗？
Well, a kid cannot say to themselves, "My parent just had a bad day." Then the badness is in my parent, my leader.
嗯，孩子不能对自己说：“我的父母刚刚度过了糟糕的一天。”那么问题就出在我的父母、我的领导身上。
I'm young now, right?
我现在还年轻，对吧？
I don't understand nuance.
我不明白细微差别。
My leader can't be bad, so I must take on the badness.
我的领导不能是坏人，所以我必须承担坏事。
At least then I have control.
至少那时我有控制权。
So kids, after they're kind of yelled at, in the absence of repair, they really only have two options for how to regulate and feel safe again.
所以孩子们，在被吼叫之后，在没有修复的情况下，他们实际上只有两种选择来调节并再次感到安全。
They can self-blame, "It's all my fault," which is why I feel like most adults, when they have a hard time, they tell themselves, "It's my fault.
他们可以自责，“都是我的错”，这就是为什么我觉得像大多数成年人一样，当他们遇到困难时，他们告诉自己，“这是我的错。
I'm not good enough." It's the legacy of that story from childhood.
我还不够好。”这是童年时那个故事的遗产。
Or they use self-doubt.
或者他们使用自我怀疑。
"Maybe that didn't happen.
“也许那没有发生。
Maybe I overreacted.
也许我反应过度了。
Maybe I can't trust myself." Again, it leads to adults who basically say, "Did I overreact?" Or, "Let me call five friends.
也许我不能相信自己。”这又导致成年人基本上会说，“我反应过度了吗？”或者，“让我给五个朋友打电话。
Let me see if they think what my boyfriend did was a big deal." Because they can't trust themselves.
让我看看他们是否认为我男朋友的所作所为有什么大不了的。”因为他们不相信自己。
And so trauma, what I want every parent to know is, they'll say, "I left my kid alone and I didn't pick them up at the soccer field.
所以创伤，我想让每个父母都知道的是，他们会说，“我把我的孩子独自留下了，我没有去足球场接他们。
Is that going to traumatize them?" And I'll say, "Well, that's just the event.
这会让他们受到创伤吗？”我会说，“好吧，这就是事件。
Did you say to them, 'Hey, that probably felt scary.
你是否对他们说，‘嘿，这可能让人感到害怕。
What was that like?
那是什么样子的？
Oh, you're right.
哦，你是对的。
You were alone.'" Now all of a sudden, next to the event that was scary is my story and my connection.
你孤身一人。’”突然间，紧接着可怕的事件的是我的故事和我的联系。
It got processed in a safe connection.
它在安全连接中得到处理。
It didn't get processed in aloneness, and that's a massive difference.
它没有被单独处理，这是一个巨大的差异。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In the scenario you are describing, the parent who yelled goes to the child.
在您描述的场景中，大喊大叫的父母走向孩子。
Having been that child, and perhaps also having been that parent-
曾经是那个孩子，或许也曾经是那个父母——
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
how do we deal with the fact that sometimes, we don't want to be around the person that yelled at us?
有时，我们不想和对我们大喊大叫的人在一起，我们该如何应对这一事实？
It hurts to receive the care.
接受照顾很痛苦。
There's a textured landscape as opposed to a smooth landscape there.
那里有一个有纹理的景观，而不是光滑的景观。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Like, okay, now you're ready for everything to be peaceful.
就像，好吧，现在你已经准备好让一切变得平静了。
I'm still with my feelings.
我仍然凭着我的感觉。
I guess that's where the, "I believe you," comes in, and that's where the sorting it through process begins.
我想这就是“我相信你”的用武之地，也是排序过程开始的地方。
Is that right?
是这样吗？
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Well, I think it's what version of a parent comes back.
嗯，我想这就是父母回来的版本。
To me, the first thing we have to do in a repair process is actually repair with ourselves as a parent, really.
对我来说，在修复过程中我们要做的第一件事实际上是作为父母修复我们自己，真的。
Because if you haven't repaired with yourself, which to me is kind of separating your identity, again, from your behavior, like okay, Becky, I'll use myself as an example.
因为如果你还没有修复自己，这对我来说又是一种将你的身份与你的行为分开的方式，好吧，贝基，我会以我自己为例。
I'm a good parent who just screamed at her son.
我是一个好父母，只是对她的儿子尖叫。
I did not mess up forever.
我并没有永远搞砸。
And you see when you try to repair with yourself, those two things get collapsed.
你会发现，当你尝试用自己修复时，这两件事就会崩溃。
I'm like, "I messed him up forever.
我想，“我永远把他搞砸了。
I'm a monster." Wait, I'm a good parent who did something I'm not proud of.
我是一个怪物。”等等，我是一个好父母，但做了一些我并不自豪的事情。
You can't repair with someone until you've repaired with yourself.
在你自己修复之前，你无法与别人修复。
They feel it from you.
他们从你身上感受到了。
It usually is like then you're asking for them.
通常就像你在要求它们一样。
I'll be like, "It's okay, right?
我会说：“没关系，对吧？
You forgive me, right?" That's not a repair.
你原谅我了，对吧？”这不是修复。
That's using your child to try to do something we just have to do on our own or with other adults.
这是利用你的孩子尝试做一些我们必须自己做或与其他成年人一起做的事情。
But if I've repaired with myself, I'm going to show up in a different way.
但如果我修复了自己，我就会以不同的方式出现。
Might I have a feisty kid?
我可能有一个活泼的孩子吗？
I might.
我可能会。
He's like, "I don't care.
他就像是，“我不在乎。
It's not better." That's okay.
这并没有更好。”没关系。
I'm not repairing to get something from my child.
我修理东西不是为了从我的孩子那里得到什么。
I'm repairing to give an experience to them.
我正在修复，为他们提供经验。
So we can also get creative.
所以我们也可以发挥创意。
Your kid is older, you text them, you slip a note under the door.
你的孩子长大了，你给他们发短信，在门下塞一张纸条。
You say, "Okay, I just have to say this one thing." To me, this line really matters to snatch that self-blame out of a kid's body is just, "I'm sorry I yelled.
你说：“好吧，我只想说一件事。”对我来说，这句话真的很重要，可以让孩子摆脱自责，只是，“对不起，我大喊大叫。
It is never your fault when I yell." And it's not.
我大喊大叫从来都不是你的错。”事实并非如此。
And people who argue, our ability to regulate our emotions predated our child's existence.
有人认为，我们调节情绪的能力早于我们的孩子的存在。
They had something.
他们有一些东西。
They did something, and we felt frustrated, but that's very different than yelling, right?
他们做了一些事情，我们感到沮丧，但这与大喊大叫有很大不同，对吧？
And saying that to your kid is so important.
对你的孩子说这句话非常重要。
Meanwhile, the next day you might say, "By the way, let's really figure out how to get out the door in a smoother way." You could work on whatever they need to work on.
与此同时，第二天你可能会说：“顺便说一句，让我们真正弄清楚如何以更顺利的方式走出家门。”你可以做他们需要做的任何事情。
But the reason I think most kids end up rejecting parents' apologies is it's not really a repair.
但我认为大多数孩子最终拒绝父母道歉的原因是这并不是真正的修复。
We're asking our kid for permission to be okay again, or our repair sounds like, "Hey, I'm sorry I yelled, but if you just got ready on time, that wouldn't have happened." Or we say, "I'm sorry you felt that way.
我们请求我们的孩子允许他再次好起来，或者我们的修复听起来就像是，“嘿，对不起，我大喊大叫，但如果你准时做好准备，那就不会发生这种情况。”或者我们说：“我很抱歉你有这样的感觉。
I'm sorry you felt that way." None of those are actually repairs, and if that's what a kid's been used to, they're going to keep a parent more at bay.
我很抱歉你有这样的感觉。”这些都不是真正的修理，如果孩子已经习惯了这种情况，他们会让父母更加不安。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So is it safe to say that we can always come back to making the kid feel real and safe?
那么可以肯定地说，我们总能回来让孩子感到真实和安全吗？
"I believe you" is a great place to start.
“我相信你”是一个很好的起点。
And the reason I keep coming back to these-
我不断回到这些的原因是——
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
simple things is that, simple but very potent, by the way, is that in the real world landscape of parenting-
简单的事情是，简单但非常有效，顺便说一下，在现实的养育世界中——
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
family, and life, things are happening really fast, and it's very dynamic, and it's multifaceted.
家庭和生活，事情发生得非常快，而且非常动态，而且是多方面的。
We haven't even talked yet about when there's two parents, the one that didn't yell.
我们甚至还没有讨论过什么时候有两个父母，一个没有大喊大叫的父母。
When there's multiple siblings.
当有多个兄弟姐妹时。
The human dynamics in other landscape is hard enough, and then when you start introducing the real world landscape, things happen fast.
其他景观中的人类动态已经足够困难，然后当你开始引入现实世界景观时，事情就会发生得很快。
So having something that people can reach to really quickly-
所以拥有人们可以很快到达的东西-
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Totally
完全
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
what I call in the landscape of stress modulation, which is something that I'm more familiar with from my labs work, is real time tools.
我在压力调制领域中所说的实时工具是我在实验室工作中更熟悉的东西。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Real time tools.
实时工具。
We're all at our best after meditation, vacation, massage, and a good night's sleep.
经过冥想、假期、按摩和一夜好眠后，我们都处于最佳状态。
But what about Real-time tools when everything's-
但是当一切都发生时，实时工具又如何呢？
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
everything's hectic.
一切都很忙碌。
So what does a really good apology look like in the real world?
那么现实世界中真正好的道歉是什么样的呢？
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because a really good apology in the ideal world of Instagram is, "Yeah, I believe you, and I'm so sorry," with no buts, no this and that.
因为在 Instagram 的理想世界中，真正好的道歉是“是的，我相信你，我很抱歉”，没有但是，没有这个那个。
But a real apology sometimes is as you're boarding a plane, or when there's a bunch of other things that are going on, and you haven't even dealt with those yet, or when you're on your way to an event or you-
但真正的道歉有时是当你登机时，或者当有很多其他事情正在发生，而你甚至还没有处理这些事情时，或者当你在去参加一个活动的路上或者你-
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
Okay.
好的。
So you get it.
所以你明白了。
What does a really good internal landscape for apology look like?
真正适合道歉的内部环境是什么样的？
How can we touch into where we need to be?
我们怎样才能到达我们需要到达的地方？
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then what are the words that even if we have to try again later and again and again later with that person, in this case kid, but person more generally, what's the go-to solid apology?
然后，即使我们必须稍后再一次、一次又一次地向那个人（在这种情况下是孩子，但更一般地说是人）尝试，什么是可靠的道歉？
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Great.
太棒了。
So yeah, I think you are never going to go wrong saying, "I believe you," to your kid.
所以，是的，我认为对你的孩子说“我相信你”永远不会出错。
Obviously not if you say it randomly, but if they're really upset, "You yelled at me." You say, "I believe you." If that's all you can remember, you're crushing it.
如果你随意说出来，显然不会，但如果他们真的很不高兴，“你对我大喊大叫。”你说：“我相信你。”如果这就是你能记得的全部，那么你就粉碎了它。
I think a realistic repair, you have to do something for yourself.
我认为现实的修复，你必须为自己做点什么。
And to me, it can be a very simple mantra.
对我来说，这可能是一个非常简单的咒语。
To me, "I'm a good parent who is having a hard time," is the one I use, honestly, over and over.
对我来说，“我是一个过得很艰难的好父母”，诚实地说，我一遍又一遍地使用这句话。
And after I yell at my kid, I'll go to the bathroom sometimes, and I'll say that to myself, "Becky, I'm a good parent having a hard time." And I'll kind of say it as many times as I need until I really do feel something shift a little in my body.
在我对我的孩子大喊大叫之后，有时我会去洗手间，我会对自己说：“贝基，我是一个好父母，但也遇到了困难。”我会根据需要多次说这句话，直到我真的感觉到我的身体发生了一些变化。
Because again, I think that phrase separates what I did from who I am.
因为我再次认为这句话将我所做的事情与我是谁分开了。
Right?
对吗？
And then to me, a realistic apology, it could be super simple.
对我来说，一个现实的道歉可能非常简单。
If you remember nothing else, it could just be like, "I'm sorry I yelled." That's great.
如果你什么都不记得了，你可能会说：“对不起，我大喊大叫了。”太好了。
If you're like, "I'm feeling it, Becky, give me that next step," "I'm sorry I yelled.
如果你说，“我感觉到了，贝基，请给我下一步，”“对不起，我大喊大叫。
Just like you, I'm working on managing my emotions, and next time, even when I'm frustrated, I'm going to try to stay calm." Something about next time.
就像你一样，我正在努力控制自己的情绪，下次，即使我感到沮丧，我也会努力保持冷静。”关于下次的事情。
If you want to throw in that it's not your fault.
如果你想加入，那不是你的错。
It seems an odd thing because parents are like, "Why do kids assume it's their fault?" It is their default position, and so it's never a bad thing to throw in.
这似乎很奇怪，因为父母会想，“为什么孩子们认为这是他们的错？”这是他们的默认位置，所以投入从来都不是坏事。
But honestly, just simply, "Hey, I'm sorry I yelled." That actually gives them that realness.
但老实说，只是简单地说，“嘿，对不起，我大喊大叫了。”这实际上给了他们真实感。
Because without saying anything more, you're saying, "That thing you think happened, did happen." So that's powerful.
因为不用再说什么，你就是在说：“你认为发生的事情确实发生了。”所以这很强大。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
How do you suggest parents deal with retorts and rudeness?
您建议父母如何应对反驳和粗鲁行为？
And again, let's extend this to all relationships.
再次，让我们将其扩展到所有关系。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So you get in your best mindset, and by the way, I love this "I am" thing.
这样你就可以保持最好的心态，顺便说一句，我喜欢这个“我是”的东西。
Two of the most important words in any language, when translated to other languages, I am blank, I am a good this, or I am a whatever role identity is key to the brain.
任何语言中最重要的两个词，当翻译成其他语言时，我是空白的，我是一个好人，或者我是一个任何角色，身份是大脑的关键。
We know this.
我们知道这一点。
You go in, and you say, "I'm really sorry.
你进去后说：“我真的很抱歉。
I struggle to regulate my emotions."
我很难调节自己的情绪。”
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
"I believe that you're really upset."
“我相信你真的很难过。”
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And the kid says, "I hate you."
孩子说：“我恨你。”
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Now, earlier you said that good boundaries are about not expecting a change in behavior from someone else.
现在，您之前说过，良好的界限就是不期望别人改变行为。
They're about our own boundaries.
它们关乎我们自己的界限。
Or maybe the "I hate you" comes from, "Listen, we're not going to go to so-and-so's house for a play date today."
或者也许“我恨你”来自于“听着，我们今天不打算去某某家玩。”
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Great example.
很好的例子。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
"I hate you." Yeah.
“我恨你。”是的。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
"I hate you."
“我恨你。”
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So is there ever a case for no response?
那么有没有没有回复的情况呢？
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
To me, the most underutilized parenting strategy is doing nothing.
对我来说，最未被充分利用的育儿策略就是什么也不做。
Literally.
从字面上看。
It's one of my most used strategies.
这是我最常用的策略之一。
And there's really good reason for it, especially in this situation.
这样做确实有充分的理由，尤其是在这种情况下。
So always to me, I always say we have to understand before we intervene.
所以对我来说，我总是说我们在干预之前必须先了解情况。
So I know every parent's like, "What do you do in that situation?" But it's like trying to fix someone's tennis swing before you look at their tennis swing, right?
所以我知道每个家长都会问：“在这种情况下你会怎么做？”但这就像在你观察某人的网球挥杆之前试图修复某人的网球挥杆一样，对吗？
There could be a lot of problems.
可能会有很多问题。
So again, why is a kid saying, "I hate you"?
那么，为什么一个孩子会说“我恨你”呢？
And I would ask every parent to just keep this in mind.
我要求每位家长牢记这一点。
It's a tool, and you can't use it in real time.
它只是一个工具，你无法实时使用它。
Eventually you can, but we have to say it at the end of a night.
最终你可以，但我们必须在晚上结束时说出来。
When my kid said, "I hate you," what is my most generous interpretation of why he would say that to me?
当我的孩子说“我恨你”时，我对他为什么对我说这句话最慷慨的解释是什么？
And if you're like any human, me included by the way, your least generous interpretation is immediate.
如果你像任何人一样，顺便说一下，包括我在内，你最不慷慨的解释是立即的。
You're like, "Because he's a sociopath." That's what we say all the time.
你会说，“因为他是个反社会者。”这就是我们一直说的。
We're like, "Wow." Or, "Because he's a horrible kid," "Because he's spoiled," "Because he's nasty." It comes easily.
我们就像，“哇”。或者，“因为他是个可怕的孩子”，“因为他被宠坏了”，“因为他很讨厌”。它来得很容易。
So that's fine, but what is my most generous interpretation?
好吧，但是我最慷慨的解释是什么？
And when I don't know, I'll push myself to say, okay, well, if I was in a situation with my husband, what would lead me to say that?
当我不知道时，我会强迫自己说，好吧，好吧，如果我和我丈夫处于这种情况，什么会让我这么说？
I don't know.
我不知道。
What would lead you to say that to someone?
是什么会让你对某人说这样的话？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That I hate them?
说我恨他们？
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yeah.
是的。
They say something to you like, "Hey, Andrew, we're not going to be able to do this dinner."
他们会对你说：“嘿，安德鲁，我们不能做这顿晚餐了。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It would have to be some sort of deep betrayal of trust.
这一定是某种对信任的深刻背叛。
And I have to acknowledge that if I said that to somebody that I really care about or love, if as I'm saying, "I hate you," what I'm really saying is, "I love you so much, and that hurts at such an unbelievable intensity that what's coming out of my mouth is I hate you." Because if you didn't love them-
我必须承认，如果我对一个我真正关心或爱的人说“我恨你”，我真正想说的是，“我非常爱你，这种伤害是如此令人难以置信的强烈，以至于从我嘴里说出来的是我恨你。”因为如果你不爱他们-
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
That's right
没错
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
it would have null effect.
它将无效。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
I think-
我认为——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It would be a meh.
这将是一个meh。
But instead it's a ugh, it hurts.
但相反的是，哎呀，很痛。
So somehow there's a neural circuit in there that goes, "I, whatever," insert expletive, "hate you."
所以不知何故，那里有一个神经回路，“我，无论如何”，插入脏话，“恨你”。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But what you're really saying is, "I love you so much."
但你真正想说的是：“我非常爱你。”
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And as a consequence, that thing you did or said hurts so much.
结果，你所做或所说的事情让你非常受伤。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
That's right.
没错。
And so I think that's exactly what's going on for a kid.
所以我认为这正是一个孩子正在发生的事情。
Or to me, my most generous interpretation in a simple way is my kid, when I said we couldn't go to this friend's house that he thought we were going to, his friend he was going to sleep over- He had so built it up in his mind.
或者对我来说，我最慷慨的简单解释是我的孩子，当我说我们不能去他以为我们要去的朋友家时，他要和他的朋友一起睡——他已经在心里这么想了。
Probably like kids do, they have this whole image, "Oh, and then we're going to do this and this," and the letdown was so intense.
可能就像孩子们一样，他们有这样的整体形象，“哦，然后我们要做这个、这个”，而失望是如此强烈。
And again, I go back to kids have all the feelings we have, and they're born with none of the skills.
我再说一遍，孩子们拥有我们所拥有的所有感受，但他们生来就没有任何技能。
So it takes a pretty well-developed skill to be really disappointed, by the way, and surprised right at the moment, and manage it in a mature way.
因此，需要一种相当成熟的技能才能真正感到失望，顺便说一句，并立即感到惊讶，并以成熟的方式管理它。
I'm sure we both know adults who aren't really capable of doing that, right?
我确信我们都认识一些没有真正能力做到这一点的成年人，对吧？
So the fact that my seven-year-old is doing that.
事实上我七岁的孩子正在这样做。
So if I think about it that way, we latch onto our kids' words as if they're the truth.
所以如果我这样想的话，我们就会牢牢抓住孩子的话，就好像它们是事实一样。
They're not the truth.
他们不是事实。
It's not to say they don't matter, but they're not the truth.
这并不是说它们不重要，但它们不是事实。
The truth is whatever world is under the words.
事实就是文字下的世界。
Like, "I'm disappointed, and I don't know how to manage that." So if I think about the outcome, where do I want to be?
就像，“我很失望，我不知道如何应对。”那么，如果我考虑一下结果，我想达到什么结果呢？
What I would love in that situation.
在那种情况下我会喜欢什么。
Because the truth is, when I say to my kid, "Sorry, we can't go to Bobby's house," I wouldn't even want, it's not normal for my kid to be like, "Oh, no problem." Because I'm just picturing my 25-year-old trying to get a job and being like, "Mom, oh, I didn't get it." And then he's like, "No problem." I'm like, that's kind of weird.
因为事实是，当我对我的孩子说，“对不起，我们不能去鲍比家”时，我什至不想，我的孩子说“哦，没问题”是不正常的。因为我只是想象我 25 岁的孩子试图找一份工作，然后说：“妈妈，哦，我没找到。”然后他说：“没问题。”我想，这有点奇怪。
Like, really?
真的吗？
That's weird.
这很奇怪。
I'd want you to be disappointed.
我希望你失望。
And so what I want my kid to be able to do is to be like, I don't know, what's the best it gets?
所以我希望我的孩子能够做的就是，我不知道，最好的是什么？
Like, "Oh, man, I was really looking forward to that." That's ultimate maturity.
就像，“哦，伙计，我真的很期待。”这就是最终的成熟。
So how do I get from, "I hate you," to, "Oh, man, I was really looking forward to that"?
那么我如何从“我恨你”转变为“哦，伙计，我真的很期待”？
All the things we want to do just don't even make sense, like sending my kid to their room, saying, "You're such a nasty kid.
我们想做的所有事情根本就没有意义，比如把我的孩子送到他们的房间，说：“你真是个讨厌的孩子。
I've never seen any of your friends say that to their parents." And I'm good at acting these things out because of course, I say these things, too.
我从来没有见过你的朋友对他们的父母说过这样的话。”我很擅长把这些事情表现出来，因为当然，我也会说这些事情。
But all I'm doing is basically telling my kid the version of themselves I don't want them to be.
但我所做的基本上就是告诉我的孩子我不希望他们成为的样子。
So now I'm further away from that outcome, just not effective.
所以现在我离那个结果还很远，只是没有效果。
My kid obviously literally needs to learn some of those skills and practice them.
我的孩子显然需要学习其中一些技能并进行练习。
We don't think about simulations with kids nearly enough.
我们对孩子们的模拟考虑得还不够。
We know that in sports.
我们在体育运动中知道这一点。
People practice all the time.
人们无时无刻不在练习。
We don't do that with emotion regulation.
我们不会通过情绪调节来做到这一点。
So what do I do in the moment?
那么我现在该怎么办呢？
I think the best question here is, what do I do outside the moment to help my kid build the skills so they actually have more of a skill the next time that moment comes?
我认为这里最好的问题是，在这一刻之外我该做什么来帮助我的孩子培养技能，以便他们在下一次那一刻到来时实际上拥有更多技能？
Still, I'm a pragmatist.
尽管如此，我还是一个实用主义者。
What do I do in the moment?
我现在该做什么？
"I hate you." I probably would do nothing first.
“我恨你。”我可能首先什么也不做。
When someone is rude to you and they say something nasty, I don't know, this is my son, this is me.
当有人对你无礼并且说了一些难听的话时，我不知道，这是我的儿子，这是我。
My son just hurled, "I hate you." It's sitting between us.
我儿子只是大喊：“我恨你。”它坐在我们之间。
When we say back to them, "I hate you," or, "Go to your room," we take all the energy from what they said, and we just throw it.
当我们对他们说“我恨你”或“去你的房间去”时，我们从他们所说的话中吸收了所有的能量，然后将其扔掉。
And then we have this ping pong match.
然后我们有这场乒乓球比赛。
When you do nothing, I always picture if this is like the "I hate you," it just sits between us.
当你什么都不做的时候，我总是想象这是否就像“我恨你”一样，它就在我们之间。
My kid has a much higher chance of kind of re-owning what they just said because I'm just kind of sturdy in that moment because I didn't just take it from them and say something to them, which just gives them the opportunity to take what I said and have no responsibility for the first thing they said.
我的孩子有更大的机会重新拥有他们刚才所说的话，因为我在那一刻很坚强，因为我不只是从他们那里拿走并对他们说些什么，这只是让他们有机会接受我所说的话，并且对他们所说的第一件事不承担任何责任。
It's always true in adults.
对于成年人来说总是如此。
When someone says to you something nasty, if you actually just stay there, they're kind of like, "Oh, shoot.
当有人对你说了一些难听的话时，如果你真的只是呆在那里，他们会有点像，“哦，开枪。
I shouldn't have said that." Because it's right there.
我不应该这么说。”因为它就在那里。
So I'd probably say nothing.
所以我可能什么也不说。
Now, I don't know if I'd really do that, but I'd want to do that, let me be clear.
现在，我不知道我是否真的会这样做，但我想这样做，让我说清楚。
Something else you can say in that moment, which takes a lot of presence, so it's not going to happen right away, is just something like, "Whoa.
在那一刻你可以说一些其他的话，这需要大量的存在，所以它不会立即发生，就像，“哇哦。
Clearly you're disappointed.
显然你很失望。
I get that.
我明白了。
I believe you, and I know there's another way you can say that to me." That's actually right back to family jobs.
我相信你，而且我知道你可以用另一种方式对我说这句话。”这实际上又回到了家庭工作。
I'm validating, and I'm setting kind of a boundary in some ways.
我正在验证，并且在某些方面设定了界限。
Maybe there's a hope there, too.
也许那里也有希望。
I know there's another way.
我知道还有另一种方法。
If my kid keeps saying, "I hate you, I hate you.
如果我的孩子一直说：“我恨你，我恨你。
You're the worst, you're the worst," then I'm going to say, "Listen, I love you.
你是最糟糕的，你是最糟糕的，”然后我会说，“听着，我爱你。
You're a good kid.
你是个好孩子。
You're having a hard time.
你过得很艰难。
I really won't stay in your room while you keep saying this to me.
当你一直对我说这些的时候，我真的不会呆在你的房间里。
And part of that is because it's not good for you either.
部分原因是它对你也没有好处。
This isn't a good dynamic.
这不是一个好的动态。
I'm going to step outside.
我要走出去。
I'm going to come back, and we can talk about it when we're both in a place where we can be a little more respectful," or something like that.
我会回来的，当我们都处于一个可以更加尊重的地方时，我们可以谈论这件事，”或者类似的话。
You don't have to be a punching bag.
你不必成为出气筒。
But at least now I'm helping my kid see that he is having a feeling under these words.
但至少现在我正在帮助我的孩子看到他在这些话下有一种感觉。
If I can't differentiate the feeling from the behavior, how can I expect my kid to ever learn to differentiate those two?
如果我无法区分感觉和行为，我怎么能指望我的孩子学会区分这两者呢？
Which is how my kid can actually get to a more regulated place.
这就是我的孩子实际上可以到达一个更受监管的地方的方式。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I've sometimes wondered whether or not parents are either afraid of or not afraid enough of their kids.
我有时想知道父母是否害怕或不够害怕他们的孩子。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I've known some parents that are afraid of their kids.
我认识一些害怕自己孩子的父母。
And perhaps as a consequence, who knows what the chicken egg is there.
也许因此，谁知道那里有先有蛋还是先有蛋。
All we know is the parent was alive first.
我们所知道的是父母首先还活着。
The kids learn to control their parents through not necessarily emotional outbursts, but the threat of-
孩子们学会控制父母，不一定是通过情绪爆发，而是通过——
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
emotional outbursts.
情绪爆发。
I've seen this again and again, and it's a pretty wild thing to observe.
我已经一次又一次地看到这种情况，这是一件非常疯狂的事情。
And of course, as an observer, it's far easier than when you're in it.
当然，作为一个观察者，这比你身处其中要容易得多。
But this idea, like, whoa, they're like a pot ready to boil over.
但这个想法，就像，哇，它们就像一个准备沸腾的锅。
Like they're going to pop.
就像他们要流行一样。
And I've seen this in teachers in the classroom.
我在课堂上的老师身上看到了这一点。
I've seen this in so many venues where whether or not the child understands that they're somehow controlling the situation or not, that there's just an inherent fear of what could happen.
我在很多地方都看到过这种情况，无论孩子是否明白他们是否在以某种方式控制局势，他们都对可能发生的事情有一种内在的恐惧。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then I think kids feel a certain power, but they don't feel safe, right?
然后我认为孩子们感受到了某种力量，但他们感觉不安全，对吧？
I mean, how could they, right?
我的意思是，他们怎么可能，对吧？
They're children.
他们是孩子。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So for the parents out there that are afraid of their kids' potential responses and/or how bad their kid, quote unquote, "might turn out" if they were to really lay down the law.
因此，对于那些担心孩子的潜在反应和/或孩子有多糟糕的父母来说，如果他们真的制定法律，“可能会结果”。
Here I'm using kind of old school language.
在这里我使用的是一种老式的学校语言。
But listen, I grew up-
但听着，我长大了——
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I'm 48 years old, so yeah.
我已经48岁了，是的。
My parents didn't physically abuse us, but there might've been a spanking every once in a while, or I don't know what the rule is nowadays or the standard out there.
我的父母没有对我们进行身体虐待，但可能偶尔会打屁股，或者我不知道现在的规则或标准是什么。
I think I won't say which, but I might have taken a smack here or there, but not many.
我想我不会说是哪个，但我可能在这里或那里被打了一巴掌，但不多。
And there was also a lot of love.
还有很多爱。
But clearly, and here I'm not supporting the use of corporal punishment, I want to be very clear.
但很明显，我在这里并不支持使用体罚，我想非常明确地表示这一点。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Kids can be tough.
孩子们可能很艰难。
And then also, it wasn't long into my high school years when I was physically larger than both my parents.
而且，进入高中不久，我的体格就比我的父母都大了。
I never used that to intimidate them, but I have to imagine when your kid is larger than you, if you were already psychologically afraid of them, now it's clear to both of you that the tables have turned.
我从来没有用它来恐吓他们，但我必须想象一下，当你的孩子比你大时，如果你已经在心理上害怕他们，现在你们俩都很清楚，形势已经逆转了。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
I'm talking about the-
我说的是-
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
unconscious, semi-conscious aspects of this.
无意识、半意识方面。
I'm not talking about who can-- Obviously, physical fights, there's not something I ever want to see or participate in in a household.
我不是在谈论谁可以——显然，肢体冲突，是我不想在家庭中看到或参与的事情。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
So this is an amazing topic.
所以这是一个令人惊奇的话题。
Like walking on eggshells.
就像是如履薄冰。
This is-- Right?
这是——对吧？
And this is terrifying to a kid, because again, if a kid is trying to figure out, "Am I real, and am I safe?" Kids do experience feelings in such an intense way because they don't have any of those skills, and they're so surprising, and they're so visceral, that it is scary to them.
这对孩子来说是可怕的，因为如果一个孩子再次试图弄清楚“我是真实的吗？我安全吗？”孩子们确实会以如此强烈的方式体验感情，因为他们没有任何这些技能，他们是如此令人惊讶，他们如此发自内心，这对他们来说是可怕的。
And there are especially these groups of kids, I call them deeply feeling kids, that do feel things more intensely, and they do have more of these big, massive tantrums.
尤其是这些孩子群体，我称他们为情感丰富的孩子，他们对事物的感受确实更强烈，而且他们确实有更多的大发脾气。
They even look animalistic often during.
他们甚至经常看起来很兽性。
They try to scratch you.
他们试图抓伤你。
They'll hiss during them.
期间他们会发出嘶嘶声。
They'll growl.
他们会咆哮。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hiss, really?
嘶嘶声，真的吗？
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I grew up with some biters.
我是和一些咬人的人一起长大的。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Kids that bite.
会咬人的孩子。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yes.
是的。
Because again, those are just feelings, literally uncontained, that are exploding out.
因为这些只是情绪，实际上是不受控制的，正在爆发。
And where do they explode out?
它们会在哪里爆炸呢？
Through your extremities.
通过你的四肢。
So that's really what it is.
事实就是如此。
And so what will happen, and this is this really unfortunate dance, and one of my favorite things to help people turn around, is then kids kind of sense from a parent, "I really am as toxic as I worried I was." Right?
那么接下来会发生什么，这真是不幸的舞蹈，我最喜欢帮助人们扭转局面的事情之一，就是孩子们从父母那里得到的感觉，“我真的像我担心的那样有毒。”对吗？
And again, if we go back to that pilot thing.
再说一次，如果我们回到试点的事情上来。
I think about a pilot who's like, "We have to make an emergency landing.
我想到一名飞行员，他会说：“我们必须紧急着陆。
We're not going to be able to go to LA, and we're all going to land in Cleveland," whatever it is.
我们将无法去洛杉矶，我们都会降落在克利夫兰，”无论是什么。
I picture the passenger who's like, "You are going to take us to LA." And the pilot's like, "Okay, okay." Can you imagine?
我想象那位乘客会说：“你要带我们去洛杉矶。”飞行员说：“好吧，好吧。”你能想象吗？
You're like, it doesn't matter that this person is pissed.
你会想，这个人生气并不重要。
You're the pilot.
你是飞行员。
You don't have to keep us happy.
你不必让我们开心。
Please keep us safe.
请保证我们的安全。
And if you're on that plane and you're terrified because you're like, "We have to make an emergency landing," I promise you, you're way more terrified when you hear this person change the decision because of the threat that a passenger is going to be very, very upset.
如果你在那架飞机上，你会感到害怕，因为你会说，“我们必须紧急着陆”，我向你保证，当你听到这个人因为乘客会非常非常不安的威胁而改变决定时，你会更加害怕。
And that is actually what we do when we're walking around on eggshells.
这实际上就是我们如履薄冰时所做的事情。
Now, the alternative to this, again, we live in this world in parenting where there's a binary.
现在，另一种选择是，我们生活在这个有二元性的养育世界中。
Where we say, and you said it yourself, "So I'm going to lay down the law." I don't recommend that either.
我们说，你自己也说过，“所以我要制定法律。”我也不建议这样做。
Especially with a kid like that, that's not going to be the best solution.
尤其是对于这样的孩子，这不会是最好的解决方案。
These kids have to be seen as good kids.
这些孩子必须被视为好孩子。
They are good kids.
他们是好孩子。
And when I meet with parents of these kids, I hear about them.
当我与这些孩子的父母见面时，我听到了他们的故事。
And I always say, "I hear about them, and I have a kid like this, so I get it." And I'm just like, "I really like your kid." And they're like, "What?" I was like, "I do." And they're like-- And then they usually start crying, and they go, "You're literally the first person in 11 years who's ever said that."
我总是说，“我听说过他们，而且我有一个这样的孩子，所以我明白了。”我只是想，“我真的很喜欢你的孩子。”他们就像，“什么？”我当时想，“我愿意。”他们就像——然后他们通常会开始哭泣，然后说：“你确实是 11 年来第一个这么说的人。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Including the parents.
包括父母。
Like, "You like our kid?
比如，“你喜欢我们的孩子吗？
Why?" I'm like, "They're tenacious.
为什么？”我想，“他们很顽强。
They know what they want.
他们知道自己想要什么。
They seem like they have 0% people-pleasing in them." These kids will change the world, but not if they're boundaryless, then they'll become tyrants.
他们似乎只有 0% 的讨人喜欢。”这些孩子会改变世界，但如果他们没有边界，那么他们就会成为暴君。
And that's really terrifying.
这真的很可怕。
And I'm going to teach you how to be the sturdy leader, which is equally firm as it is warm, and that's going to start today.
我将教你们如何成为坚强的领导者，既坚定又热情，这将从今天开始。
And so here's an example of these deeply feeling kids.
这是这些感情深厚的孩子们的一个例子。
I think you said something about watching a TV show, where these kids, it feels like they hold the family emotionally hostage, right?
我想你说过看电视节目时，这些孩子感觉他们在情感上把家人当作人质，对吧？
And because if you don't pick the movie that they want to watch on family movie night, they will scream, they will cry, and they will do that for three hours.
因为如果你不选择他们想在家庭电影之夜看的电影，他们会尖叫，他们会哭泣，他们会这样做三个小时。
They will.
他们会的。
Other kids after, you're like, they don't peter out, these kids.
其他孩子之后，你会说，这些孩子并没有消失。
These kids, interestingly enough, get in an awful cycle with their parents because they have such intense emotions more often, which more escalations, which tend to get met with invalidation.
有趣的是，这些孩子与他们的父母陷入了一个可怕的循环，因为他们更经常有如此强烈的情绪，这更容易升级，这往往会导致无效。
"You're so dramatic.
“你太戏剧化了。
You ruin everything." They are that much more desperate to be believed.
你毁了一切。”他们更加渴望被相信。
They escalate further.
他们进一步升级。
You can understand how that would lead to more distance and invalidation, and we're off to the races in a bad direction.
你可以理解这将如何导致更长的距离和失效，而我们的比赛方向却很糟糕。
And I would say to the parents, "During family movie night tomorrow night, this is what you're going to do." By the way, I would say, this is how concrete I get.
我会对父母说：“在明天晚上的家庭电影之夜，这就是你们要做的。”顺便说一句，我想说，这就是我得到的具体结果。
"You're going to write this down, and you're going to say it into a voice recorder with your own voice.
“你要把这些写下来，然后用你自己的声音对着录音机说出来。
And I want you to play it back and see how sturdy you sound." And they'll often do it, and they'll be like, "Wow, I didn't even believe myself when I said that.
我希望你回放一下，看看你听起来有多坚强。”他们经常这样做，他们会说，“哇，当我这么说时，我什至都不相信自己。
I'm so scared of my child." Right?
我很害怕我的孩子。”对吗？
"You're going to do it again.
“你会再做一次。
And then you're going to do it again." And this is just like any other skill we practice.
然后你会再做一次。”这就像我们练习的任何其他技能一样。
And you're going to say to your kid, "Look, I know in this family, Bobby, usually we let him pick the movie.
你会对你的孩子说：“听着，我知道在这个家庭中，鲍比，通常我们让他选择电影。
He gets really upset if not.
如果不这样做，他会非常沮丧。
Tonight's going to be different.
今晚将会有所不同。
Bobby, it is your sister's turn to pick the movie.
鲍比，轮到你姐姐来选电影了。
And I know you're going to be upset, and I just want to tell you exactly what's going to happen." In this example, I'm saying there's a two-family household, which is an assumption, but even if there's one.
我知道你会感到不安，我只是想确切地告诉你将会发生什么。”在这个例子中，我说有一个两户家庭，这是一个假设，但即使有一个。
Say, "If you're super upset and screaming, I'm going to bring you to your room," and this is important, "I'm going to sit with you, and I'm going to stay there." And this is a line that I know from our Deeply Feeling Kid workshop has really, and you have to believe it to say it, "I am not scared of your feelings." And I know parents will say to me, "But Dr. Becky, I am scared of their feelings." I'm like, "Yeah, you're going to fake it till you make it." They need to hear that.
说，“如果你非常沮丧和尖叫，我会带你到你的房间，”这很重要，“我会和你坐在一起，我会留在那里。”我从我们的“深情儿童”研讨会上了解到，这句话确实有，你必须相信它才能说出来，“我并不害怕你的感受。”我知道父母会对我说：“但是贝基博士，我害怕他们的感受。”我想，“是的，你要假装它，直到你成功。”他们需要听到这一点。
Because if you think about the image of these kids, their feelings feel so overpowering to them.
因为如果你想想这些孩子的形象，就会发现他们的感情对他们来说是如此的难以承受。
They feel more, but they're actually more porous to the world.
他们的感受更多，但实际上他们对世界的了解更多。
So they both have more coming in, and they are actually always terrified of how much of them can flow out.
因此，他们都有更多的资金流入，但实际上他们总是担心有多少资金会流出。
And so they feel their feelings in that way.
所以他们以这种方式感受自己的感受。
It's almost like my tantrum in the house takes up the entire living room.
我在家里发脾气几乎占据了整个客厅。
That's why you actually have to bring them to a smaller room, and you actually have to contain them in that way, as a way of kind of saying, like It only goes this far.
这就是为什么你实际上必须把它们带到一个更小的房间，你实际上必须以这种方式容纳它们，就像一种说法，就像它只能走到这一步。
Like literally, I will not let you dictate family movie, and always sitting in the front seat, and your favorite chair at dinner.
就像字面意思一样，我不会让你决定家庭电影，并且总是坐在前排座位上，以及晚餐时你最喜欢的椅子上。
It only goes this far, and that is truly an act of love and protection and safety for those kids.
到目前为止，这确实是对这些孩子的爱、保护和安全的行为。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
How often do you observe that these deeply feeling kids, is that how they're referred to?
您是否经常观察到这些感情深厚的孩子就是这样被提及的？
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Deeply-
深深地——
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
I made up the term, but yeah
我编造了这个词，但是是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Great
太棒了
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
...
...
deeply feeling kids.
感触很深的孩子们。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You are qualified to- ...
你有资格——...
qualify to.
有资格。
So deeply feeling kids also express these deep feelings in the positive sense.
因此，感受深刻的孩子也会以积极的方式表达这些深刻的感受。
Because I can think of some kids I grew up with, and I can look at my own experience of, it's hard to know.
因为我可以想到一些和我一起长大的孩子，而且我可以看看我自己的经历，所以很难知道。
We don't have a calibration point.
我们没有校准点。
It's not like body temperature of how much I feel versus how much you feel.
这不像体温那样代表我的感受与你的感受。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We look at the external expression of these things.
我们看这些东西的外在表现。
Like, did the lacrimal gland secrete some tears or not?
比如，泪腺是否分泌眼泪？
As you were talking about this thing before, I noticed I welled up a little bit, and I'm thinking, yeah, I can remember seeing things and feeling things and like, "Whoa, it's really big inside."
当你之前谈论这件事时，我注意到我有点涌起来，我在想，是的，我记得看到过一些东西，感觉到过一些东西，就像，“哇，里面真的很大。”
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I don't remember screaming at my parents, telling them I hate them.
我不记得对我的父母尖叫，告诉他们我恨他们。
I probably did at some point.
我可能在某个时候做过。
But I have observed other-
但我观察到其他——
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
other kids, peers that grew up that clearly fell into this category and have gone on to do remarkable things.
其他孩子、同龄人显然属于这一类，并且后来做出了非凡的事情。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Remarkable, like extraordinary things.
非凡的，就像非凡的事物一样。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because it's a capacity-
因为它是一种能力——
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Uh-huh
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that doesn't always skew towards a negative expression.
这并不总是倾向于消极的表达。
It can also, like immense expressions of love, and I think these days that there's a tendency to, for unqualified or truly unqualified people, because they're not trained to do so, to slap labels like borderline.
它也可以像爱的巨大表达一样，我认为现在有一种趋势，对于不合格或真正不合格的人，因为他们没有接受过这样做的培训，所以会贴上“边缘人”这样的标签。
Splitting, like good object, bad object splitting.
分裂，就像好对象、坏对象分裂一样。
And indeed, that exists as a diagnosis and symptoms of borderline.
事实上，这作为一种诊断和边缘症状而存在。
But that we punish rather than believe and observe that these things exist.
但我们惩罚而不是相信和观察这些事情的存在。
There's range in nervous system tuning and affect.
神经系统的调节和影响存在一定范围。
And so, put simply, do deeply feeling kids also tend to express love and joy and positive emotions with the same intensity or near same intensity?
那么，简单地说，情感丰富的孩子是否也倾向于以相同或接近相同的强度表达爱、欢乐和积极情绪？
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
I would say it depends on their stage of development and the nature of the interactions they've received back.
我想说这取决于他们的发展阶段以及他们收到的互动的性质。
I think deeply feeling kids, I always say, are super sensors.
我总是说，我认为感情丰富的孩子是超级传感器。
If you have one of these kids, and I have one of these kids, we live in New York City, she will not go into a New York City garage, where we park our car.
如果你有这些孩子之一，我也有其中一个孩子，我们住在纽约市，她不会进入我们停放汽车的纽约市车库。
And she's like, "The smell." And the rest of us are like, "What are you talking about?" Meanwhile, I have another friend who lives in a totally different area of Manhattan, and she has a deeply feeling kid.
她说，“气味。”我们其他人就像，“你在说什么？”与此同时，我的另一个朋友住在曼哈顿完全不同的地区，她有一个感情深厚的孩子。
She's like, "My daughter, the same thing." I actually believe that my daughter smells something that I don't smell.
她就像，“我的女儿，同样的事情。”我实际上相信我女儿闻到了我闻不到的味道。
They are super sensors-
他们是超级传感器——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sure
当然可以
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
...
...
in that way, right?
就这样吧？
And she notices the little detail of something.
她注意到某件事的小细节。
Now, in terms of the intense love, I think for these kids, their vulnerability sits so close to their shame.
现在，就强烈的爱而言，我认为对于这些孩子来说，他们的脆弱与他们的羞耻非常接近。
This is why they get so explosive.
这就是为什么它们如此具有爆炸性。
They almost experience their feelings as attackers, which is again why parents can get scared of them.
他们几乎体会到自己作为攻击者的感受，这也是父母会害怕他们的原因。
And they do, because again, they feel that feeling so intensely that they have this deep fear of abandonment, of being too much, and so that shame tries to shut it down, although it obviously doesn't work, and it explodes.
他们确实这样做了，因为他们再次感受到这种感觉如此强烈，以至于他们对被抛弃、对太多感到深深的恐惧，因此羞耻感试图将其关闭，尽管它显然不起作用，而且会爆炸。
What I've noticed with deeply feeling kids, and this to me is actually truly my proudest body of work.
我在富有感情的孩子们身上注意到了什么，这对我来说实际上是我最自豪的工作。
And you mentioned borderline, so we'll go there.
你提到了边界，所以我们就去那里。
People have said, "These sound almost like kids who have some predilection to borderline." And obviously, having gone to a PhD program, we're told a lot about invalidating environments and things like that.
人们说：“这些听起来就像是有某种边缘倾向的孩子。”显然，在攻读博士学位之后，我们被告知了很多有关使环境无效之类的事情。
I'm not really one for labels either.
我也不是一个真正喜欢标签的人。
But I just got so much insight from honestly my own kid, where I was like, "Wow, she is so different in how she processes things and what she needs and how she responds to my very same interactions as my other kids." They're very different.
但老实说，我从自己的孩子那里得到了很多洞察力，我当时想，“哇，她处理事物的方式、她需要什么以及她对我与其他孩子相同的互动的反应是如此不同。”他们非常不同。
And that fear of abandonment and being too much, it was there from the start.
对被抛弃和承受太多的恐惧从一开始就存在。
It really feels like it was there.
真的感觉就像在那里一样。
What's so interesting is I feel like through working with her, by the way, in a very different way, because these kids reject almost every typical parenting strategy.
有趣的是，顺便说一句，我觉得通过与她一起工作，以一种非常不同的方式，因为这些孩子几乎拒绝所有典型的养育策略。
You go to validate these kids' feelings, it's like you're trying to intrude on them and steal their heart because if you think about their porousness, they're so terrified of being taken over that when you're seeing a feeling, they feel like you're seeing into them, and so they reject you.
你去验证这些孩子的感受，就好像你试图侵入他们并偷走他们的心，因为如果你想到他们的漏洞，他们会非常害怕被接管，以至于当你看到一种感觉时，他们会觉得你正在洞察他们，所以他们拒绝你。
I always say, "You can't go in the front door with these kids.
我总是说：“你不能和这些孩子一起进前门。
You've got to find these side door approaches." But now, of all my kids, she is by far the cuddliest, the most loving, the most emphatic about our relationship.
你必须找到这些侧门。”但现在，在我所有的孩子中，她是迄今为止最可爱、最有爱心、最重视我们关系的一个。
"Oh, this trip, now I'm going to miss you so much." The idea when she was four that any of that, I would say to someone, "You are crazy.
“哦，这次旅行，我现在会非常想念你。”当她四岁的时候，我会对某人说，“你疯了。
You are talking about a different kid." So I think that, yes, that deep love is there, and we just have to make it a little safer for those kids to access it.
你说的是另一个孩子。”所以我认为，是的，深沉的爱是存在的，我们只需让这些孩子更安全地获得它。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is there any general statements that one can still make accurately about differences in the expression or perhaps even the experience of deeply feeling kids in boys versus girls?
是否有任何一般性的陈述仍然可以准确地描述男孩与女孩的表达差异，甚至是深切感受的孩子的体验？
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Hmm.
嗯。
Great question.
很好的问题。
Hmm.
唔。
I actually haven't noticed a ton, but there might be.
实际上我没有注意到很多，但可能有。
I'd love to look more into that.
我很想对此进行更多研究。
But in terms of, I want to be accurate, I haven't noticed that yet.
但就我而言，准确地说，我还没有注意到这一点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Great.
太棒了。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
I think one of the things you know you have one of these kids is if you know the moments when you're a parent where your kid needs you.
我认为你知道自己有这些孩子的一件事是，如果你作为父母知道你的孩子需要你的时刻。
And in those moments, your kids push you away.
在那些时刻，你的孩子会把你推开。
They push you away when they need you the most.
他们在最需要你的时候把你推开。
That's, I think, a really common quality for those kids.
我认为，这对于这些孩子来说是一个非常普遍的品质。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And how common is this-- I sound like such a-
这有多常见——我听起来像这样——
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
like a biologist.
就像生物学家一样。
This deeply feeling kid phenotype.
这种深有感触的孩子表型。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I don't want to lessen the importance of ...
我不想降低...的重要性
of what you're saying-
你所说的-
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
by saying it that way, because actually what I think you're saying is incredibly important.
这么说是因为实际上我认为你所说的非常重要。
Resonates with me on a lot of different levels, in fact.
事实上，它在很多不同的层面上引起了我的共鸣。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But as far as I know, it's not a DSM diagnosis.
但据我所知，这不是 DSM 诊断。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
No.
不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And thank goodness it's not-
谢天谢地，这不是——
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
That's right
没错
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
because that would pathologize it.
因为那会使它病态化。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But in a classroom full-
但在教室里——
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
let's say, make it a big classroom, 100 kids.
比方说，把它改造成一个大教室，容纳 100 个孩子。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
How many of those kids, and I'm guessing it's a continuum, but would fall into this category of deeply feeling?
我猜这些孩子中有多少是一个连续体，但会属于这种深有感触的类别？
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
I think you're right, it's a continuum.
我认为你是对的，这是一个连续体。
And connecting topics I know you've spoken about, I've been doing a lot of looking into this overlap with deeply feeling kids and neurodivergence and ADHD.
连接我知道你已经谈论过的话题，我一直在做很多研究，与深有感触的孩子、神经分歧和多动症的重叠。
And what I think is interesting about that is we have these workshops, these Deeply Feeling Kid workshops, and a lot of them we do live, and there's this whole chat.
我认为有趣的是，我们有这些研讨会，这些“深情儿童研讨会”，其中很多都是我们现场进行的，并且有整个聊天。
And I'll say these things to people, and they're definitely ideas they haven't heard, but what I think is more healing is thousands of people in the chat and saying, "I thought..." When I say the hissing thing, the chat is like a waterfall.
我会对人们说这些话，他们肯定是他们没有听过的想法，但我认为更治愈的是聊天中成千上万的人说，“我以为......”当我说嘶嘶声时，聊天就像瀑布一样。
"I thought I was the only one." So there are so many of these kids.
“我以为我是唯一的一个。”所以这样的孩子有很多。
Why I think there's more and more is something I need to look more into, but I think it does relate, if you think about these kids as more porous and you think about how insanely stimulating the world is that we bring up kids, what comes into them, it would make sense that I think this is a growing type.
为什么我认为有越来越多的东西是我需要更多地研究的，但我认为这确实相关，如果你认为这些孩子有更多的漏洞，并且你认为我们养育孩子的世界是多么疯狂的刺激，他们的成长，我认为这是一种成长型的类型是有道理的。
I'm guessing it's similar with ADHD, too.
我猜这也与多动症相似。
Why are so many more kids diagnosed than in the past?
为什么确诊的孩子比过去多了这么多？
The world we bring up kids in, the sensory overload.
我们养育孩子的世界，感官超载。
If you're that much more porous, that's going to overload your system.
如果你的漏洞太多，你的系统就会超载。
And I think that's also why more and more kids are.
我认为这也是为什么越来越多的孩子这样做的原因。
So what's the percentage?
那么百分比是多少呢？
I don't know.
我不知道。
Maybe 20?
也许20？
But don't quote me on that.
但不要引用我的话。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's a fairly high percentage.
这是一个相当高的百分比。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
I do.
我愿意。
I think it's a fairly high percentage.
我认为这是一个相当高的百分比。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
That feels right.
感觉不错。
It just sort of feels right based on my observation of adults also.
根据我对成年人的观察，这感觉也不错。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Feels right.
感觉不错。
Might also explain a lot of the apparent conflicts and misunderstandings in adult relationships.
也可能解释成人关系中许多明显的冲突和误解。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
And so many people, they'll say to me, "Oh my goodness.
很多人会对我说：“哦，天哪。
That was years of therapy for me watching that.
那对我来说是多年的治疗。
I thought I took that from my kid.
我以为这是我从我孩子那里夺来的。
This was me." And I finally talk about I believe you.
这就是我。”我最后谈到我相信你。
Deeply feeling kids are desperate to be believed, and they're desperate for our attempts to connect with them because their deep fear is their unlovability, and so they do reject typical-- It's a stance.
深切感受的孩子渴望被相信，他们渴望我们尝试与他们联系，因为他们深深的恐惧是他们不可爱，所以他们确实拒绝典型的——这是一种立场。
"Get out of my room." "Fine, you're so difficult." And then, "See, I really am as unlovable and bad as I worried I was." Right?
“滚出我的房间。” “好吧，你太难了。”然后，“看，我真的像我担心的那样不可爱、很坏。”正确的？
Unless we kind of reverse that cycle.
除非我们扭转这个循环。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd be willing to bet my life that most of the ultra-successful performing artists that we observe, I'm not going to name names, but just think of ultra-successful, the people whose words, music, poetry, writing, acting, presence evokes immense emotion in other people, so much that people will pay money to see these people express their emotions and what's inside them fall into this deeply feeling category.
我愿意用我的生命打赌，我们观察到的大多数超级成功的表演艺术家，我不会指名道姓，而只是想到那些超级成功的人，他们的言语、音乐、诗歌、写作、表演、存在能够唤起其他人的巨大情感，以至于人们愿意付钱来观看这些人表达他们的情感以及他们内心的东西属于这一深刻的情感类别。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
100%.
100%。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It just can't be any other way.
不可能有其他方式。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
The muted performer, unless that's the shtick, so to speak, is just not compelling.
沉默的表演者，除非那是特技，可以这么说，只是不引人注目。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
And a lot of what we're talking today is about the kind of tuning fork nature of emotions.
我们今天谈论的很多内容都是关于情绪的音叉性质。
Wow, what a tricky balance.
哇，多么微妙的平衡啊。
Speaking of that, I'd like to just return to something I raised earlier, and then I made the mistake, it was my fault, of shutting the hatch on it.
说到这里，我想回到我之前提出的问题，然后我犯了一个错误，这是我的错，关闭了它的舱门。
I'd like to reopen that hatch, which is when there's two parents.
我想在有两个父母的情况下重新打开那个舱口。
Maybe they're under the same roof, maybe they're not.
也许他们在同一个屋檐下，也许不是。
Or let's just say two caretakers.
或者我们只说两个看护人。
So kids are pretty darn good at figuring out who to go to for what and how to balance out negative experiences by seeking out the positive reinforcement of the other, sometimes even pitting parents and caretakers against one another.
因此，孩子们非常擅长弄清楚该去找谁做什么，以及如何通过寻找对方的积极强化来平衡负面经历，有时甚至会让父母和看护者相互对立。
Makes children sound diabolical, but adults do it, too.
这让孩子们听起来很邪恶，但成年人也会这么做。
It's called gossip.
这叫八卦。
What can co-parents, co-caretakers do to try and align strategies or if necessary to offset some bad stuff that the other parent might be doing?
共同父母、共同看护者可以做些什么来尝试调整策略，或者在必要时抵消另一方父母可能做的一些坏事？
And in today's landscape, where it's about 50% of marriages end in divorce, at least in the US, you also have the situation where then their new significant others come in, and now you've extended the landscape to sometimes five or six different parents.
在今天的情况下，大约 50% 的婚姻以离婚告终，至少在美国，你也会遇到这样的情况，然后他们的新的重要的其他人进来，现在你已经将情况扩展到有时有五六个不同的父母。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
My biological family is starting to look like the UN.
我的亲生家庭开始变得像联合国了。
We've got so many countries and religions and this thing.
我们有很多国家和宗教以及这个东西。
It's kind of nice on the one hand, but lots of divergence of opinion and emotional stance and background.
一方面这很好，但意见、情感立场和背景存在很多分歧。
So how in the world do we wrap our efforts around this?
那么我们究竟该如何围绕这个问题做出我们的努力呢？
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So one of the most common questions I get from a parent at Good Inside is like, "Can you convince my partner why the way they do things is wrong and do things more Good Inside?" And so essentially, I always say like, "Yeah, for a million reasons, I'm not too interested in taking that phone call."
因此，我从 Good Inside 的家长那里得到的最常见的问题之一是，“你能说服我的伴侣为什么他们做事的方式是错误的，并且做得更多 Good Inside 吗？”所以本质上，我总是说，“是的，出于一百万个原因，我对接那个电话不太感兴趣。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
I don't get involved in couple disputes either.
我也不会卷入夫妻纠纷。
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
But again, assuming, and you've said this a couple times, which I love, I'm assuming the way your partner or the co-parent does things is not really damaging your child.
但再次假设，你已经说过几次了，我喜欢这一点，我假设你的伴侣或共同父母做事的方式并没有真正伤害你的孩子。
Obviously, that's-
显然，那就是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sure
当然可以
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
...
...
really time for an intervention.
确实是时候进行干预了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No hitting, no emotional abuse.
没有殴打，没有精神虐待。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
But even I'm not a believer of saying for a timeout.
但即使是我也不相信暂停。
I don't believe in timeouts and punishments.
我不相信暂停和惩罚。
I don't think they feel good to kids or parents, and I also don't think they're effective.
我认为它们对孩子或父母来说感觉不好，而且我也不认为它们有效。
But like-
但就像——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No. So timeout's not effective?
不。所以超时没有效果？
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
I don't think so.
我不这么认为。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
And we probably should have closed the hatch on- I have to imagine that the going word in the profession of psychology and raising kids properly is You never spank them, you never hit them.
我们可能应该关闭舱门——我必须想象，心理学界和正确抚养孩子的行业中流行的一句话是“你永远不要打他们，你永远不会打他们”。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yeah, no.
是的，不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
All right.
好的。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
For the record.
供记录。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
So maybe we'll get back there.
所以也许我们会回到那里。
But just to go on the record, and I think you can sense from my style, not punishing, or timeouts, doesn't mean you're permissive at all.
但仅仅记录下来，我想你可以从我的风格中感觉到，不惩罚或暂停，并不意味着你完全宽容。
There's 0% permissive or even softness, I think.
我认为，宽容度是 0%，甚至是柔软度。
Not softness.
不是柔软。
There's 0% permissive in those moments.
在那些时刻，宽容度为 0%。
But we can get back there.
但我们可以回到那里。
But let's say your partner does do that, or the co-parent.
但假设你的伴侣或共同父母确实这样做了。
I would be the first to say to someone, "Do I think that that's messing up your kid?" I don't.
我会第一个对某人说：“我认为这会让你的孩子陷入困境吗？”我不知道。
I really don't.
我真的不知道。
Especially if, for example, in that situation, let's say I'm divorced and my now ex, I just know that they do timeouts or this, and I've tried to talk to them, but whatever, they're not getting on board with this style.
特别是，例如，在那种情况下，假设我离婚了，我现在是前任，我只知道他们会暂停或这样做，我试图与他们交谈，但无论如何，他们不会接受这种风格。
And to me, what happens is you have a kid, they come back to you, and they're like, "Papa gave me a timeout, and we don't do that at my house." And my first thing is I call my ex.
对我来说，发生的事情是你有一个孩子，他们回到你身边，他们就像，“爸爸给了我一个暂停，但我们在我家不这样做。”我的第一件事就是给我的前任打电话。
That's usually what I do.
我通常就是这样做的。
Or the school did this, and I call the school.
或者学校这样做了，我给学校打电话。
I call the ex and I'm like, "Why did you do that?
我打电话给前任，然后问：“你为什么这么做？
We don't do that." What I think is really important, and I actually find it very relieving as a parent, what's actually most important is helping my kid understand their experience.
我们不这样做。”我认为非常重要的是，我实际上发现作为父母非常轻松，实际上最重要的是帮助我的孩子了解他们的经历。
We center the other person and what they're doing wrong, instead of centering our kid.
我们以他人和他们做错的事情为中心，而不是以我们的孩子为中心。
We might need to call the other parent and say, "Hey, it'd be really great to get on the same page.
我们可能需要打电话给另一位家长并说：“嘿，如果能达成一致真是太好了。
Could we do this course together?
我们可以一起做这个课程吗？
That would just be great.
那太好了。
You don't have to agree with anything.
你不必同意任何事情。
I think that would be great." But in that moment, what my kid needs, actually, is more like, "Wait, that's kind of hard and confusing." So in our house, when you do something, like you scream, "I hate you," I intervene in one way.
我认为那会很棒。”但在那一刻，我的孩子实际上需要的是，“等等，这有点困难和令人困惑。”所以在我们家里，当你做某事时，比如尖叫“我恨你”，我会以一种方式进行干预。
And when you go to your dad's house, he intervenes in a very different way.
当你去你父亲家时，他会以一种非常不同的方式进行干预。
That's a lot of switching to make sense of.
要理解这一点需要进行大量的切换。
Or maybe my kid says, "Mom never apologizes to me after she yells." And I would call.
或者我的孩子可能会说：“妈妈大喊大叫之后从来没有向我道歉。”我会打电话。
Or maybe it's my own wife, and I'm like, "Hey, you know the importance of repair.
或者也许是我自己的妻子，我就像，“嘿，你知道修复的重要性。
Haven't you listened to all of this literature?" I would like to have some influence on that, but what I feel like my kid needs in the moment is more like, "Tell me what happened.
这些文献你都没有听过吗？”我想对此产生一些影响，但我觉得我的孩子此刻需要的更像是，“告诉我发生了什么事。
Oh.
哦。
Oh, she yelled at you.
哦，她对你大喊大叫。
And yeah, look, I know she had a really stressful day at work.
是的，看，我知道她今天工作压力很大。
And look, this isn't your responsibility, but you can just know this.
看，这不是你的责任，但你可以知道这一点。
Mom has a really hard time apologizing." And actually, when people have a hard time apologizing, they seem cold and like they don't care.
妈妈真的很难道歉。”事实上，当人们很难道歉时，他们会显得冷漠并且不在乎。
They actually usually just feel so ashamed of what they did.
事实上，他们通常只是对自己的所作所为感到羞愧。
And the reason I'm telling you that is not because you have to take care of her, but just so you know this so wasn't you.
我告诉你的原因并不是因为你必须照顾她，而是为了让你知道这不是你。
And anytime something happens with Mom that doesn't feel good, and you feel like you can't resolve it, you can talk to me." And I'm going to get out of role play for a sec, but I think you can see, I'm not throwing my wife under the bus.
每当妈妈发生一些让你感觉不舒服的事情，你觉得自己无法解决时，你都可以和我谈谈。”我要暂时停止角色扮演，但我想你可以看到，我不会把我的妻子扔到公共汽车下。
At all.
完全没有。
But I'm centering what my kid needs.
但我专注于我孩子需要的东西。
What my kid needs, going back, is they need to process that experience with an adult they feel safe with, rather than be in aloneness.
回想起来，我的孩子需要的是，他们需要与一个他们感到安全的成年人一起处理这种经历，而不是独自一人。
And I often picture this kid on the couch who tells me a problem at their dad's house or at school, and I go off to make a call, and I picture them alone being like, "Oh, now I'm alone.
我经常想象这个孩子坐在沙发上，他在他们爸爸家里或学校告诉我一个问题，然后我去打电话，我想象他们独自一人，“哦，现在我一个人了。
I didn't really want you to go do that.
我真的不想让你这么做。
I just wanted you to listen to me." There might then be a step two, to kind of get on the same page.
我只是想让你听我说。”然后可能会有第二步，达成共识。
Or when parents say, "Get on the same page," I think the problem is that we're not looking at the same page.
或者当父母说“达成共识”时，我认为问题在于我们没有达成共识。
Forget getting on the same page.
忘记在同一页面上。
We're not even speaking the same language.
我们甚至说的不是同一种语言。
People say to me, "My partner won't even watch a video with me, even if they disagree." That is the problem, and frankly, that's not a parenting problem.
人们对我说：“我的伴侣甚至不会和我一起看视频，即使他们不同意。”这就是问题所在，坦率地说，这不是养育问题。
That's also what I'll say to someone.
这也是我要对某人说的话。
If you say to your partner, "Look, I've been a member of Good Inside, and it's been really helpful, and it resonates, and you don't have to agree with it, but I would love to watch this four-minute video." If your partner says no, that has nothing to do with parenting.
如果你对你的伴侣说：“看，我一直是 Good Inside 的成员，这确实很有帮助，而且引起了共鸣，你不必同意它，但我很想看这个四分钟的视频。”如果你的伴侣说不，那与养育子女无关。
That is a core relationship problem, that they just don't care to do something that you say is important to you.
这是一个核心的关系问题，他们只是不愿意做你说对你重要的事情。
That's a marriage problem.
这就是婚姻问题。
And I think it's really important, and we talk about this a lot.
我认为这非常重要，我们对此进行了很多讨论。
If that was someone, I'd coach them to say, "Hey, and you don't have to agree, but if you don't commit to watching a four-minute video with me and just talking about it a little bit, and I promise I'll try not to be judgy or provey, I'll just listen, I don't really think we're talking about parenting.
如果是这样的人，我会指导他们说：“嘿，你不必同意，但如果你不承诺和我一起观看四分钟的视频并只是谈论一下，我保证我会尽量不评判或证明，我只会听，我真的不认为我们在谈论养育子女。
I think you're telling me you don't really respect me enough to do the things I'm asking you to do." And that'll stick with me.
我想你是在告诉我，你并没有真正尊重我去做我要求你做的事情。”我会一直这样认为。
That's the way I'd handle it.
这就是我处理它的方式。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Yeah, this is very helpful.
是的，这非常有帮助。
I'm curious about these ADHD diagnoses/kids-
我对这些多动症诊断/孩子很好奇-
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
because there's a lot of loose hand diagnosis these days.
因为现在有很多松手的诊断。
Years ago, I was a camp counselor, took kids backpacking, and I learned an important concept of when working with adolescent and teenage boys, which is be a channel, not a dam.
几年前，我是一名营地辅导员，带孩子们背包旅行，在与青少年和十几岁的男孩一起工作时，我学到了一个重要的概念，那就是成为一个渠道，而不是一个水坝。
When they're super energetic, they're not sitting still, where it's not nap time.
当他们精力充沛时，他们不会坐着不动，因为现在不是午睡时间。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There's just no way.
就是没有办法。
So this notion of getting it out, allowing some place for physical or emotional catharsis that's safe, obviously.
因此，将其释放出来，为身体或情感的宣泄留出一个安全的地方，显然是安全的。
And that kids have a lot of energy.
而且孩子们有很多精力。
Damn it, the adult population seems to be trying to regress themselves to have that energy.
该死的，成年人口似乎正试图让自己倒退以拥有这种能量。
So how can we blame them for having so much energy?
那么我们怎么能责怪他们有如此大的精力呢？
And, of course, there are children and adults with clinically diagnosed ADHD that really struggle.
当然，有些经临床诊断患有多动症的儿童和成人确实很挣扎。
But for the kid that's more energetic, maybe even has a hard time sitting still to the point of discomfort, and when the rest of the world that we can't control is telling them, "Hey, your kid needs to be regulated on the subway, on the bus, in the classroom." What are some things that we can do in terms of communication with those kids, and probably some of those kids are listening as well, and to just be a channel, not a dam, to allow Their best expression to come forward.
但对于精力充沛的孩子来说，甚至可能很难安静地坐着，甚至感到不舒服，而当我们无法控制的世界其他地方告诉他们，“嘿，你的孩子需要在地铁上、公共汽车上、教室里受到监管。”在与这些孩子的沟通方面，我们可以做哪些事情，也许其中一些孩子也在倾听，并且只是成为一个渠道，而不是水坝，让他们最好的表达出来。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yeah.
是的。
I love this idea in general.
总的来说，我喜欢这个想法。
It's much more effective to tell anyone what they can do rather than telling them what they can't do.
告诉任何人他们可以做什么比告诉他们不能做什么要有效得多。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Across the board with kids, because there's usually a can that is possible, and then you can work with the urge instead of, I don't even know, trying to suppress it or have it not act itself out.
对于孩子来说，因为通常有一种可能，然后你可以处理这种冲动，而不是，我什至不知道，试图抑制它或让它不表现出来。
Our urges and feelings are forces.
我们的冲动和感受就是力量。
They're going to come out.
他们会出来的。
And so yes, I think this idea of me and my kid are on the same team here, I think that's so important to start with.
所以，是的，我认为我和我的孩子在同一个团队中，我认为这一点非常重要。
Any kid, definitely, if you have a kid with some attentional struggles, we're on the same team.
当然，任何孩子，如果你有一个注意力不集中的孩子，我们都在同一个团队。
You can so easily get into me against you, and then you look to shut down everything about them.
你可以很容易地让我反对你，然后你就想关闭与他们有关的一切。
But yeah, we're on the same team.
但是，是的，我们在同一个团队。
So let's say it's hard to do homework right now.
假设现在做作业很困难。
I see you.
我看到你了。
Okay.
好的。
Let's take an amount of time, and it seems like you have a lot of energy.
花点时间吧，看起来你精力充沛。
Let's do some heavy work, or let's run outside.
我们做点重活吧，或者到外面去跑步。
And maybe homework always has to start after a period like that.
也许家庭作业总是要在这样的一段时间之后开始。
Maybe they need a break, but this idea of, yes, I'm working with my kid as opposed to against my kid, is always going to be more successful.
也许他们需要休息一下，但是，是的，我正在与我的孩子一起工作，而不是反对我的孩子，这种想法总是会更成功。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do you think that some of the new emerging tools, some of which I've talked a lot about, but many, many people have talked a lot about, things like meditation, kids doing some long exhale breathing.
你是否认为一些新出现的工具，其中一些我已经谈论了很多，但是很多很多人都谈论了很多，比如冥想，孩子们做一些长呼气呼吸。
In addition to the way I grew up, it was PE time or recess time, you run around like crazy and-- Do you think that these tools are helping kids get some self-regulation, or is whatever self-regulation they're gaining offset by the fact that there's just so much more input?
除了我成长的方式之外，在体育课或课间休息时间，你会疯狂地跑来跑去，然后——你认为这些工具是否正在帮助孩子们获得一些自我调节，或者他们获得的任何自我调节是否会被更多的输入所抵消？
We hear so much about the challenges of social media for adults, but certainly for kids.
我们经常听到社交媒体给成年人带来的挑战，当然也给孩子们带来了挑战。
Bullying obviously being one of the more salient ones, but also just the fact that when they go home at night and they're in bed, they're potentially still in interactions with their friends.
欺凌显然是最突出的问题之一，但事实上，当他们晚上回家躺在床上时，他们可能仍在与朋友互动。
We used to have a phone landline that we'd sometimes call one another on, but I wasn't really much of a phone kid with my friends.
我们曾经有一部固定电话，有时我们会互相打电话，但我和朋友们在一起时并不是一个喜欢打电话的孩子。
So when you were home, you were home.
所以当你在家时，你就在家。
You were separated from all of that.
你与这一切分开了。
How bad is it, and what are some things that-
情况有多糟糕，有哪些事情——
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
parents and kids might consider?
家长和孩子可以考虑吗？
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yeah.
是的。
To me, meditation, things like that, always icing on the cake.
对我来说，冥想之类的事情总是锦上添花。
That's always helpful, and certainly teaching kids real tools.
这总是有帮助的，而且肯定能教给孩子们真正的工具。
Those are literally something I can do.
这些确实是我能做的事情。
I've learned this meditation.
我已经学会了这个冥想。
I have a mantra.
我有一个咒语。
Something like that, huge fan.
类似的事情，巨大的粉丝。
You have to be able to touch it in some way.
你必须能够以某种方式触摸它。
But to me, I think what's coming up as you bring up this larger point, and it actually goes back to where we started, is the cost to children of parents not being able to set boundaries has never been higher.
但对我来说，我认为当你提出这个更大的观点时，实际上又回到了我们开始的地方，那就是父母无法设定界限给孩子带来的代价从未如此之高。
And, at the same time, it's never been harder for parents to set boundaries.
与此同时，对于父母来说，设定界限也变得前所未有的困难。
And I think this stuff starts way before social media.
我认为这些东西早在社交媒体之前就开始了。
To me, when I think about the earliest years of a kid's life, you get so much bang for your buck in life from helping kids just learn to tolerate frustration.
对我来说，当我想到孩子生命的最初几年，帮助孩子学会忍受挫折会让你的人生受益匪浅。
And so much of kids' early life right now in the world we live in is all about the immediate escape from frustration.
在我们现在生活的世界里，孩子们的早期生活大部分都是为了立即摆脱挫折。
And not only escape from frustration, but from frustration to gratification in an instant.
而且不仅是逃离挫败感，而且是瞬间从挫败感转为欣慰。
It's so fast.
太快了。
How did that just happen?
这是怎么发生的？
It didn't use to be like that.
以前不是这样的。
There wasn't even an option.
甚至没有选择。
Me and you, I don't know, you wanted a movie.
我和你，我不知道，你想要一部电影。
I don't know, maybe your parent could drive you to Blockbuster if you had an account, and then maybe, I don't know, I remember going, being like, "Are they going to have it?
我不知道，也许你的父母可以开车送你去百视达，如果你有一个帐户，然后也许，我不知道，我记得去的时候，就像，“他们会拥有它吗？
Are they going to have it?" And then you see the thing, and there's nothing behind it, and you're like, "They don't have it." That whole thing-
他们会得到它吗？”然后你看到那个东西，它后面什么也没有，你就会想，“他们没有它。”整件事——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Blockbuster, by the way, was a video store.
顺便说一句，百视达是一家音像商店。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Oh.
哦。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Just kidding.
开玩笑。
I'm just totally kidding.
我完全是在开玩笑。
I'm totally kidding.
我完全是在开玩笑。
But somewhere out there-
但在某个地方——
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I sometimes do this to myself.
我有时对自己这样做。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Absolutely.
绝对地。
I used to love going to pick out movies at the VHS store.
我以前喜欢去录像带商店挑选电影。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
But if you think about that as one tiny thing, it's obviously tiny, and you think about, I remember that in my childhood.
但如果你把它看作一件小事，它显然很小，你想想，我记得在我的童年。
And you think about that tiny moment compared to some parallel in a kid.
你会想到那个微小的时刻，与孩子身上的一些相似之处进行比较。
There's no frustration.
没有挫败感。
The want and the gratification, there's zero space.
想要和满足，空间为零。
There is zero space.
空间为零。
And also, I have to say, our generation of parents, and me too, 100% me too, our tolerance for frustration has gone way down because of the gratification world we live in, which means our tolerance of our kids' tantrums is at an all-time low because we're like, "Hey, my life is pretty easy in a lot of ways.
而且，我不得不说，我们这一代父母，还有我，100%的我，由于我们生活在一个满足的世界，我们对挫折的容忍度已经大大降低，这意味着我们对孩子发脾气的容忍度处于历史最低水平，因为我们会说，“嘿，我的生活在很多方面都很轻松。
This is a massive inconvenience." So kids have more gratification than ever.
这是一个巨大的不便。”所以孩子们比以往任何时候都更加满足。
We have lower tolerances for frustration, everyone does, which means the way we interact with kids over and over and over, plus just the natural things they're exposed to or not, like Netflix versus Blockbuster, just means their circuitry around expectations and what feels good, to me, that's what really scares me.
我们对挫折的容忍度较低，每个人都是如此，这意味着我们一遍又一遍地与孩子互动的方式，加上他们接触或不接触的自然事物，比如Netflix与百视达，只意味着他们围绕期望和感觉良好的电路，对我来说，这才是真正让我害怕的。
It does.
确实如此。
And figuring out how to tolerate or even insert frustration into your kid's life as early as possible, to me, is of critical importance.
对我来说，尽早弄清楚如何容忍甚至将挫折融入孩子的生活中至关重要。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I could not agree more, and I say that with the understanding that I have also shortened the latency in my reward prediction errors, which is nerd speak for when I want to watch a movie, I go onto Netflix, and it's near infinite, and I can get it right then.
我完全同意，我说，我知道我还缩短了奖励预测错误的延迟，这是书呆子的说法，当我想看电影时，我会去看 Netflix，它几乎是无限的，然后我就可以得到它。
If the internet's a little slow, then I start barking about how slow internet is worse than no internet, and that you start observing yourself, and you just go, "Oh my goodness.
如果互联网有点慢，那么我就会开始咆哮互联网有多慢比没有互联网更糟糕，然后你开始观察自己，然后你就会说：“哦，天哪。
What's going on?"
发生什么事了？”
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The ability to tolerate different wait times between anticipation and reward is so critical.
容忍预期和奖励之间不同等待时间的能力非常重要。
And that's what getting a degree is about.
这就是获得学位的意义所在。
That's what doing anything challenging is about.
这就是做任何有挑战性的事情的意义所在。
I've gone on record saying that too much dopamine without Effort exerted in order to get that dopamine is very detrimental.
我已经公开说过，如果不付出努力而获得过多的多巴胺是非常有害的。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Well, that to me, and all the screen time kind of discussion, there's so much screen time and social media, and all the things that screen time do for kids.
嗯，对我来说，以及所有屏幕时间的讨论，有太多的屏幕时间和社交媒体，以及屏幕时间为孩子们做的所有事情。
And again, my kids watch TV and they're young and they have iPads.
再说一遍，我的孩子们看电视，他们还很小，而且有 iPad。
I'm so not a purist, I'm a pragmatist.
我不是一个纯粹主义者，我是一个实用主义者。
And whoever's listening to this, no one messed up their kids forever.
无论谁听这个，没有人会永远搞砸他们的孩子。
So we can just, like we were talking about before, use this information to make slightly different decisions on the margin.
因此，就像我们之前讨论的那样，我们可以使用这些信息在边际上做出略有不同的决策。
That's the best it gets.
这是最好的。
But I think about this, when our kids are especially young and they're building this circuitry around what does it mean to get success?
但我想一想，当我们的孩子特别年轻时，他们正在围绕成功意味着什么构建这个电路？
What are my expectations there?
我对那里有什么期望？
How much effort do I have to put in?
我需要付出多少努力？
And I think about a young kid playing some mindless, just dopamine-giving game.
我想到一个小孩子正在玩一些无意识的、只是产生多巴胺的游戏。
The circuit they learn is mindlessness, zero effort, dopamine.
他们学习的回路是无意识、零努力、多巴胺。
And then I think, and I find this really interesting, how many people say their kid is six now.
然后我想，我发现这真的很有趣，有多少人说他们的孩子现在六岁了。
They're having a really hard time learning how to read.
他们学习阅读非常困难。
And they're getting all these learning assessments, and the learning assessments are coming back no dyslexia.
他们正在接受所有这些学习评估，并且学习评估没有发现阅读障碍。
Right?
正确的？
And I know some of these families, and I say this with love, is I say, "I literally think this is the first time in this kid's life that they kind of have to put concerted effort without in-the-moment success." And so yeah, that looks like a lot of things.
我认识其中一些家庭，我满怀爱意地说，“我确实认为这是这个孩子一生中第一次必须齐心协力，但没有取得暂时的成功。”是的，这看起来像很多事情。
It can even present like ADHD, right?
它甚至可以表现为多动症，对吗？
Because it can present like that.
因为它可以这样呈现。
It might be, but it might also just be that these dopamine circuits have developed in a way that's not conducive with something like learning how to read.
可能是这样，但也可能只是这些多巴胺回路的发展方式不利于学习如何阅读之类的事情。
Right?
正确的？
And so when parents ask me now, "I know reading and academic skills, what can I do when my kids are younger?
因此，当父母现在问我：“我知道阅读和学术技能，当我的孩子还小的时候我能做什么？
I got them flashcards." No flashcards.
我给他们买了抽认卡。”没有抽认卡。
You can get flashcards, that's fine.
你可以得到抽认卡，那很好。
It's not detrimental, but to me it's like, well, what is my kid's relationship with frustration?
这并不是有害的，但对我来说，这就像，我的孩子与挫败感有什么关系？
Because I think about this thing called the learning space, right?
因为我想到了一个叫做学习空间的东西，对吗？
Again, I'm visual.
再说一遍，我是视觉的。
There's not knowing how to do something, and then there's successfully doing something, and the space in between is the learning space.
不知道如何做某事，然后成功地做某事，中间的空间就是学习空间。
That's what learning is.
这就是学习。
And the learning space inherently is frustrating.
学习空间本质上是令人沮丧的。
That's the right feeling to be feeling.
这才是正确的感觉。
And when kids have learned to collapse those two things, then they don't have a lot of space to learn.
当孩子们学会了折叠这两件事时，他们就没有太多的空间来学习。
Versus, I don't know, even I'm thinking about my kid who wants to draw a rainbow or sun when they're young, and they're like, "That doesn't look like a sun." It would be easy for me to be like, "Let me just do that for you." And by the way, yes, I give myself permission to do that sometimes.
相反，我不知道，即使我在想我的孩子，他们年轻时想画彩虹或太阳，但他们会说，“那看起来不像太阳。”我很容易就会说：“让我为你做这件事吧。”顺便说一句，是的，有时我允许自己这样做。
Sometimes I'm like, "I can't deal with this.
有时我会想：“我无法处理这个问题。
I've got other things to do." But sometimes I think in that long-term greedy like, this is going to be the same circuit for learning how to read.
我还有其他事情要做。”但有时我认为，在长期贪婪的情况下，这将是学习如何阅读的相同循环。
It is.
这是。
And for learning how to do that project.
并学习如何完成该项目。
And what if my only goal, forget them drawing a sun, and I've got to tolerate the whining, my only goal was just to lengthen the amount of time they let themselves be in that learning space.
如果我唯一的目标是忘记他们画太阳，而我必须忍受抱怨，我唯一的目标只是延长他们在那个学习空间里呆的时间。
That's it.
就是这样。
Because I think we know as adults, it's not about getting to success.
因为我认为我们作为成年人都知道，这不是为了成功。
That comes when it comes.
该来的时候就来了。
The longer amount of time you let yourself be in that learning space, the more successful you can be with hard things, because you've just got to traverse through.
你让自己处于学习空间的时间越长，你在困难的事情上就越能取得成功，因为你必须穿越过去。
And so to me, that's honestly one of the things I'm most passionate about teaching parents is literally, what do you do during that time, then?
所以对我来说，老实说，我最热衷于教导父母的事情之一就是，那你在那段时间做什么？
How do I change what my goal is?
我如何改变我的目标？
If my goal is to stop my kid's tantrum, I'm going to collapse it.
如果我的目标是阻止孩子发脾气，我就会崩溃。
But if my goal is just to lengthen that, I might do something very different.
但如果我的目标只是延长这个时间，我可能会做一些非常不同的事情。
"Oh, drawing a circle.
“哦，画个圈。
That's not, you're right, you didn't want to draw that.
那不是，你是对的，你不想画那个。
Oh, drawing a circle is so hard." And my kids, "Can you do it for me?
哦，画个圆真难啊。”我的孩子们，“你能为我做吗？
Can you do it?" Of course, sometimes I will, but I might say, "I'm not going to do it, sweetie.
你能做到吗？”当然，有时我会这样做，但我可能会说：“我不会这样做，亲爱的。
I'm not.
我不是。
You know why?
你知道为什么吗？
Because I know you can do this a little more.
因为我知道你可以多做一点。
I have faith in you." And I think this is so powerful to say to kids, "This is so frustrating, and that's the exact way you should be feeling." We don't want our kids to be-- That's the right feeling.
我对你有信心。”我认为对孩子们说“这太令人沮丧了，而这正是你应该有的感受”是非常有力的。我们不希望我们的孩子——这是正确的感觉。
I'll even draw that learning space visual.
我什至会画出学习空间的视觉效果。
This is where you are.
这就是你所在的地方。
You're doing an amazing job.
你做得非常出色。
And it is actually interesting when kids are young, they actually do adopt that.
当孩子们还小的时候，这实际上很有趣，他们确实采用了这一点。
Someone said to me, "I've been doing this stuff for a while, my kid literally says to me, 'I like to do hard things, Mom.'" They believe it.
有人对我说，“我做这件事已经有一段时间了，我的孩子对我说，‘妈妈，我喜欢做困难的事情。’”他们相信这一点。
That's an amazing self-belief to develop as a kid, right?
从小就培养出这种令人惊奇的自信，对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's awesome.
太棒了。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
So yes, I think this stuff, especially compared to how easy it is to get that gratification, it's more important than ever to have an offset.
所以，是的，我认为这些东西，特别是与获得满足感的容易程度相比，获得补偿比以往任何时候都更重要。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Yeah.
是的。
I'm doing my best to get the word out into the world that the only reason the brain changes at all is if there is these neuromodulators, like epinephrine, adrenaline in the body and brain, because that's what signals that the nervous system needs to change.
我正在尽我最大的努力让世界知道，大脑发生变化的唯一原因是身体和大脑中是否存在这些神经调节剂，例如肾上腺素、肾上腺素，因为这就是神经系统需要改变的信号。
If something can be accomplished-
如果能够完成某件事的话——
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
there's no reason for the nervous system to change, by definition.
根据定义，神经系统没有理由改变。
There's also, I don't want to spin off into a neuroscience-
还有，我不想转向神经科学——
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Mm
毫米
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
of resilience and willpower lesson here, but there's some amazing literature that shows that there's this area of the brain, the anterior midcingulate cortex, which is activated when people do things they don't want to do.
这里有关于韧性和意志力的课程，但是有一些令人惊奇的文献表明，大脑的这个区域，即前中扣带皮层，当人们做他们不想做的事情时，它会被激活。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it generalizes to other things.
它可以推广到其他事物。
But this is not the, I love to work out, so I'm going to work out.
但这不是，我喜欢锻炼，所以我要去锻炼。
This is the, I hate to work out, and I do it anyway.
这就是，我讨厌锻炼，但我还是这么做了。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it translates to success in academic endeavors, success in-
它转化为学术努力的成功，成功-
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Mm
毫米
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
all sorts of environments.
各种环境。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And so I think the beauty of it is that this brain structure is highly plastic and can be built up through one thing, and that translates to others.
所以我认为它的美妙之处在于这种大脑结构具有高度可塑性，可以通过一件事建立起来，并转化为其他事物。
So doing hard things, experiencing what I call limbic friction, just as a gateway to learning, just understanding that it always feels hard.
因此，做困难的事情，体验我所说的边缘摩擦，只是作为学习的门户，只是理解它总是感觉困难。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's what learning is.
这就是学习。
In fact, I can remember in graduate school, even as a young adult, my mid-20s, I was struggling with an analysis, and my graduate advisor, she was wonderful this way.
事实上，我记得在研究生院时，即使作为一个20多岁的年轻人，我也在努力进行分析，而我的研究生导师，她在这方面做得很好。
She clearly knew how to do it, and I said Can you explain how to do this?
她显然知道该怎么做，我说你能解释一下怎么做吗？
And she goes, "No." I go, "What?" I was like, "Just we get done." And she's like, "No, it's called learning." And she just walked out.
她说：“不。”我说：“什么？”我当时想，“我们就完成了。”她说：“不，这叫学习。”她就走了出去。
She was also a great parent to her children.
她也是孩子们的一位伟大的父母。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I also tried to get adopted by her, and that failed, so-
我也尝试过被她收养，但失败了，所以——
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Third time's the charm
第三次就是魅力
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
exactly.
正是如此。
My poor parents, they did their best, and I'm grateful to them for many things.
我可怜的父母，他们尽了最大的努力，我很感谢他们做很多事情。
But I think that including the encouragement to do hard things.
但我认为这包括鼓励做困难的事情。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do things that suck, that are beneficial for us.
做那些糟糕但对我们有益的事情。
So it's a knife edge, right?
所以这是刀锋，对吗？
Now that I'm reflecting, it's like, do things that suck.
现在回想起来，我觉得自己做了一些很糟糕的事情。
I believe you, it sucks.
我相信你，这很糟糕。
And then what did my mom use to say a lot?
那么我妈妈经常说什么呢？
Hate me now, love me later.
现在恨我，以后再爱我。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I loved her then, and I love her now.
那时我爱她，现在我也爱她。
But yeah, there were moments where it was like, "Ah, I hate that you're making me do this." I don't know about the hate me now, love me later.
但是，是的，有些时刻就像是，“啊，我讨厌你让我这样做。”我不知道现在恨我，以后爱我。
Old school.
老派。
But-
但是——
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
But I think what she was trying to say is, "I have your best interest in mind."
但我认为她想说的是，“我把你的最大利益放在心上。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Definitely.
绝对是。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
That's it, right?
就是这样，对吧？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Definitely.
绝对是。
Yeah.
是的。
No, definitely.
不，绝对是。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Can I say one thing, just because it's loud in my head?
我能说一件事吗，只是因为它在我脑海中响亮？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Please.
请。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Just like, one of the things, and I think it's easy, and I'm hearing myself.
就像，其中一件事，我认为这很容易，而且我正在听到自己的声音。
We hear this, and I think it's easy to listen and be like, "Oh, man, I never thought about it that way," or, "I didn't know that." Or again, we just spiral as a parent so fast, like, "I messed up my kid forever." Nobody messed up their kid forever.
我们听到这个，我认为很容易听到并说，“哦，伙计，我从来没有那样想过，”或者，“我不知道这一点。”或者，作为父母，我们的反应速度很快，就像，“我永远搞砸了我的孩子。”没有人会永远搞砸自己的孩子。
It doesn't matter how, that is just not true.
不管如何，事实并非如此。
And this is where I think we can spiral into like, "Yeah, what's wrong with me?" And I ask parents in this situation to come with me to a different location, which is kind of like anger.
我认为这就是我们可以陷入这样的困境：“是的，我怎么了？”在这种情况下，我要求父母和我一起去另一个地方，这有点像愤怒。
And I've started to feel angry, and I think anger tells us what we need.
我开始感到愤怒，我认为愤怒告诉我们我们需要什么。
So I'm like, well, what is that anger telling me?
所以我想，好吧，那愤怒告诉我什么？
It is messed up.
它一团糟。
The system is stacked against us, that when you become a parent, it is literally the hardest, most confusing, most triggering, most important job we have, and we are given zero resources.
这个系统对我们不利，当你成为父母时，这实际上是我们所拥有的最困难、最令人困惑、最触发、最重要的工作，而且我们获得的资源为零。
Right?
正确的？
Nobody I know would tell a surgeon who never went to med school and was struggling at surgery that they were a bad surgeon.
我认识的人中没有人会告诉一个从未上过医学院、在手术中苦苦挣扎的外科医生，他们是一个糟糕的外科医生。
They would be like, "Wow, you probably deserve to go to med school and residency, by the way.
他们会说，“哇，顺便说一句，你可能应该去医学院和住院医师实习。
That's an important job you have." And so I think it's easy to listen to all this and spiral into like, "Oh, no," but I'd ask you to almost feel a little protective, helpful anger next to it, which is like, "Wow," yes, this is an important job I have.
这是你的重要工作。”所以我认为听到这一切很容易就会变成“哦，不”，但我要求你在旁边感受到一点保护性的、有益的愤怒，就像，“哇，”是的，这是我的重要工作。
This is complicated, and maybe there are resources out there that I deserve.
这很复杂，也许那里有我应得的资源。
And I think that's the perspective I would ask parents to listen from.
我认为这就是我要求家长倾听的观点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Earlier, you described the job of parenting as boundaries, right?
早些时候，您将养育子女的工作描述为界限，对吗？
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Imparting boundaries as well as empathy and validation.
赋予界限以及同理心和验证。
I just want to remind people that your very basic but very practical job description for parenting is something that I think we can return to over and over again.
我只是想提醒人们，你对育儿的非常基本但非常实用的工作描述是我认为我们可以一遍又一遍地回顾的内容。
It also makes me wonder, in thinking about the generalizability of these concepts to other forms of relationship, what about the relationship to self?
这也让我想知道，在思考这些概念对其他形式的关系的普遍性时，与自我的关系又如何呢？
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
It's something we don't often talk about.
这是我们不常谈论的事情。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Relationship to self.
与自我的关系。
We want to have boundaries, and we also want to be able to empathize and validate ourselves.
我们希望有界限，我们也希望能够同情和验证自己。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yeah.
是的。
And I think, right, I don't know, my friend didn't invite me.
我想，对，我不知道，我的朋友没有邀请我。
I don't know, I found out she had five friends for a dinner, and I was like, "Oh, I'm so hurt." I would say to myself, I believe myself.
我不知道，我发现她有五个朋友共进晚餐，我当时想，“哦，我很伤心。”我会对自己说，我相信自己。
I'm allowed to feel that way.
我被允许有这样的感觉。
I think our feelings love when we tell them they make sense.
我认为当我们告诉他们这些是有道理的时候，我们的感情就会产生爱。
I just think there's something magical about that phrase.
我只是觉得这句话有一些神奇之处。
It makes sense I'm upset.
我的不安是有道理的。
My friends were all there, and I wasn't.
我的朋友们都在，而我却没有。
That makes sense.
这是有道理的。
And there's a boundary, because when my feeling tells me, "Well, I'm about to plan a dinner party for 200 people and invite everyone I know but her," I feel like there's an important, like, "You know what, feeling?
这是有界限的，因为当我的感觉告诉我，“好吧，我要为 200 人计划一个晚宴，并邀请除了她以外我认识的所有人，”我感觉有一个重要的，比如，“你知道吗，感觉？
I'm not going to let you go that far." And the image I always think about is I'm the driver of my car, and all the different feelings and urges, they're passengers.
我不会让你走那么远。”我总是想到的形象是我是我的车的司机，所有不同的感受和冲动，他们都是乘客。
And we can't get them out of the car.
我们无法让他们下车。
You just can't.
你就是不能。
They're in your body.
它们就在你的身体里。
But you don't want to let them take over the driver's seat.
但你不想让他们接管驾驶座。
That's really what it is.
确实是这样。
And as long as they're a passenger, they actually won't cause you that many problems.
只要他们是乘客，他们实际上不会给你带来那么多问题。
They'll be annoying.
他们会很烦人。
And to me, that's like, "Hey, I see you." I see you, and I will often say hi to my feelings for that reason.
对我来说，这就像，“嘿，我看到你了。”我看到你，因此我会经常向我的感情打招呼。
Like, "Hi, anxiety that woke me up at 4:00 in the morning.
就像，“嗨，焦虑让我在凌晨 4:00 醒来。
Yes, there's a lot on my mind.
是的，我心里有很多事情。
Hi." And then there's a boundary.
嗨。”然后还有一个边界。
You're a part of me and not all of me.
你是我的一部分，但不是我的全部。
So I think that phrase for regulating our own feelings, you're a part of me and not all of me, is the essence of validating and having a boundary.
所以我认为调节我们自己的感受这句话，你是我的一部分，而不是我的全部，是验证和有边界的本质。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What about our need, I think healthy need, to know whether or not the lesson stuck?
我们的需求（我认为是健康的需求）是否需要知道教训是否有效？
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So I've observed this before.
所以我之前就观察过这一点。
A kid is catastrophizing about an upcoming event, maybe a concert or a test or a homework thing or a social thing, and we're using all our best tools to try and help them, and, "I believe you, I hear you then."
一个孩子对即将到来的活动感到灾难性的，也许是一场音乐会、一次测试、一项家庭作业或社交活动，而我们正在使用所有最好的工具来尝试帮助他们，并且，“我相信你，我听到你的声音了。”
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And they go through the experience, and they do pretty well, maybe even great.
他们经历了这些经历，并且做得很好，甚至可能很棒。
And then we say, like, "Did you notice?
然后我们会说，“你注意到了吗？
You were so concerned before, and you did it."
你之前那么关心，你也做到了。”
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
"You really did it." Is there something that we can or should do to try and stamp down that recognition?
“你真的做到了。”我们可以或应该做些什么来尝试消除这种认可？
Because one thing that's so beautiful about childhood is the short-term horizon nature of childhood, in which kind of like trying not-- We talk about adults trying to take it one day at a time, or even half a day at a time, and kids are navigating on the basis of first period class.
因为童年的美好之处在于童年的短期视野本质，这有点像不尝试——我们谈论成年人尝试一次一天，甚至一次半天，而孩子们则在第一节课的基础上进行导航。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Second period class.
第二节课。
Their horizon is often very close in, and I do wonder if they're internalizing these more global lessons on their own, or whether or not we should try and help them internalize what they just did.
他们的视野通常非常接近，我确实想知道他们是否正在自己内化这些更具全球性的教训，或者我们是否应该尝试帮助他们内化他们刚刚所做的事情。
Like, "Do you get it?
就像，“你明白吗？
You were super concerned.
你非常担心。
You were almost dissolving into a puddle of your own tears, and I believe you.
你差点就泪流满面了，我相信你。
That was the appropriate response then and now.
无论是当时还是现在，这都是正确的回应。
You did it.
你做到了。
Think about that."
想想看。”
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is it good that we reinforce those wins?
我们加强这些胜利是否有好处？
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yeah.
是的。
I think our kids do internalize the patterns, right?
我认为我们的孩子确实内化了这些模式，对吗？
But I hear you.
但我听到了。
There are these moments, it's almost like we want to encapsulate it for them, like, "Hey, that was a thing," right?
有这些时刻，我们几乎想为他们概括它，比如，“嘿，那是一件事，”对吧？
I think kids pick up on whether Our interactions were doing something for them or for us.
我认为孩子们会意识到我们的互动是为他们还是为我们做一些事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
So if it's from a like, "Hey, that thing I taught you was really helpful," right?
所以，如果是来自“嘿，我教你的那件事真的很有帮助，”对吧？
It would just be like if my husband was like, "Hey, your presentation went well because I told you to do that thing," and I'd be like, "Stop talking to me." Right?
就好像我丈夫说，“嘿，你的演示很顺利，因为我告诉你要做那件事，”我会说，“别跟我说话了。”正确的？
But if he said to me, "Hey, what was it that led to that?" It's probably like, "That's helpful to talk out." I'd be much more open.
但如果他对我说：“嘿，是什么导致了这一切？”可能是这样的：“说出来很有帮助。”我会更加开放。
So I love the phrase, going back to just real tools, "I'm noticing." I think actually often we want to praise our kids or tell something, just saying, "I'm noticing," because, again, we want to be seen, we don't want to feel controlled.
所以我喜欢这句话，回到真正的工具，“我注意到了。”我认为实际上我们经常想表扬我们的孩子或告诉他们一些事情，只是说“我注意到了”，因为我们想再次被看到，我们不想感到被控制。
I'm noticing does that.
我注意到确实是这样。
Like, "Hey, I'm noticing you were so worried about this test.
就像，“嘿，我注意到你对这次测试非常担心。
We kind of talked about this way of talking to your anxiety, and then I'm just noticing you felt really good about how it went." Even that, I think, because that's the biggest thing now in our crazy fast world we live in, is just pausing to notice.
我们讨论过用这种方式来缓解你的焦虑，然后我注意到你对事情的进展感觉非常好。”即便如此，我认为，因为这是我们现在生活的疯狂快速世界中最重要的事情，只是停下来注意一下。
That's already encapsulating.
这已经是封装了。
Or saying to your kid-- And I think a question's only a question when you don't know the answer, right?
或者对你的孩子说——我认为当你不知道答案时，问题就只是问题，对吗？
Sometimes we ask questions.
有时我们会问问题。
They have question marks, but it's like a statement or a criticism.
他们有问号，但这就像一个陈述或批评。
So if we say to our kid, "That thing I taught you was really helpful, right?
因此，如果我们对孩子说：“我教你的那件事真的很有帮助，对吧？
Do you think that was helpful?" That's not really a question.
你认为这有帮助吗？”这并不是一个真正的问题。
We already have an answer.
我们已经有了答案。
But if I say, "Hey, I just thought it would be good for us to talk through for a second, what was it you think that led you to really feel good that day on the test?" Then if I really don't know what my kid could say, I think they'll receive it, and then they might say, "Oh, it was that thing we talked about." Like, "That's so great to know.
但如果我说：“嘿，我只是觉得我们讨论一下会有好处，你认为是什么让你在那天考试时感觉很好？”然后，如果我真的不知道我的孩子会说什么，我想他们会收到它，然后他们可能会说，“哦，这就是我们谈论的事情。”就像，“很高兴知道这一点。
I'm even thinking about Spanish coming up," and like, "I wonder, do you think that would--" I think "I wonder" is also a great phrase for parents, just wondering.
我什至在考虑西班牙语，”就像，“我想知道，你认为那会——”我认为“我想知道”对于父母来说也是一个很好的短语，只是想知道。
"I wonder if that would be helpful there." Again, they just lower defensiveness because maybe there's movement with wondering.
“我想知道这是否会有帮助。”再说一次，他们只是降低了防御性，因为也许有疑惑的运动。
It doesn't feel controlling.
感觉没有控制力。
So yeah, I think those are nice moments if it comes from a place of connection-
所以，是的，我认为如果这些时刻来自一个有联系的地方——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
...
...
not from control.
不是来自控制。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
That makes sense.
这是有道理的。
We had a guest on this podcast, Lisa Feldman Barrett, who's a world expert in emotions, and she explained that in cultures where there's more nuanced language for different emotions, rather than the, what I call the emoijification of emotions, there's better emotion tolerance.
我们的播客中有一位嘉宾丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特 (Lisa Feldman Barrett)，她是一位世界情感专家，她解释说，在对不同情感有更细致的语言的文化中，而不是我所说的情感表情符号化，会有更好的情感容忍度。
So understanding that it's not just sad, happy, depressed, thrilled, but there's a lot of nuance, it's very context-dependent, can be very useful.
因此，了解它不仅仅是悲伤、快乐、沮丧、激动，还有很多细微差别，它非常依赖于上下文，这可能非常有用。
Do you think there's something to be gained from letting kids explore the range of emotions, not just, how do you feel, good or bad?
你认为让孩子们探索各种情绪，而不仅仅是你的感觉如何，好还是坏，你认为有什么好处吗？
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Most adults need to learn that good or bad are valuations.
大多数成年人需要知道好与坏都是评价。
That's not actually an emotion.
这实际上并不是一种情绪。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's not actually an expression of how you feel, but that's what we do for shorthand.
它实际上并不是表达你的感受，但这就是我们所做的速记。
Do you think that, let's just say in the United States, but elsewhere perhaps as well, that there's some value to teaching kids to pay attention, like what is going on inside?
你认为，在美国，也许在其他地方，教孩子们集中注意力（比如内心正在发生什么）有一定的价值吗？
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What is this feeling of what I call anxiety?
我所说的焦虑是什么感觉？
Is it excitement and anxiety?
是兴奋又焦虑吗？
Being able to better pinpoint what one is coping with, but also the positive aspects of emotion.
能够更好地确定一个人正在应对什么，以及情绪的积极方面。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yes.
是的。
It's funny.
很有趣。
I am the clinical psychologist that questions, "How do you feel?" I always find a lot of pressure.
我是临床心理学家，会问“你感觉怎么样？”我总是觉得压力很大。
I don't know.
我不知道。
I tend not to ask my kid that, but I tend also never to have asked patients that.
我往往不会问我的孩子这个问题，但我也往往从来不会问病人这个问题。
So I think what we're getting at is we want, and I think this relates to resilience.
所以我认为我们得到的是我们想要的，我认为这与韧性有关。
Resilience is our ability, in my mind, to tolerate the widest range of emotions as possible.
在我看来，韧性是我们尽可能容忍最广泛的情绪的能力。
Because as humans, we're going to feel that whole range, so the more of them you've learned to tolerate, the better off you'll be.
因为作为人类，我们会感受到整个范围，所以你学会容忍的越多，你的生活就会越好。
And so that's what I want for my kids.
这就是我希望我的孩子们得到的。
I don't know if that has to explicitly come from naming, although I think that point is definitely true.
我不知道这是否必须明确来自命名，尽管我认为这一点绝对正确。
The more things we can name, the more things we can understand.
我们能命名的事物越多，我们能理解的事物就越多。
To me, just showing up for your kid in a way that's with believing, maybe with boundaries, is probably the best way to help your kid tolerate the widest range of emotions because they learn that every emotion can be held in connection with someone else, right?
对我来说，以一种相信、也许有界限的方式出现在你的孩子面前，可能是帮助你的孩子容忍最广泛的情绪的最好方法，因为他们知道每一种情绪都可以与其他人联系起来，对吗？
Versus held in aloneness and is bad.
与保持孤独是不好的。
So I guess that's the way I think through it.
所以我想这就是我的思考方式。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Maybe we could talk about adolescents and teenagers-
也许我们可以谈谈青少年和青少年——
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
specifically.
具体来说。
Teenage years are wild.
青少年时期是狂野的。
I always say that the single most traumatic aging event and the most rapid rate of aging that we ever experience is puberty.
我总是说，我们经历过的最痛苦的衰老事件和最快的衰老速度是青春期。
Just fundamentally, brain circuits that were for one thing or that were dormant change and come alive in ways that the world forever will look different to us, feel different to us, and our self-perception changes, period.
从根本上来说，用于一件事或处于休眠状态的大脑回路会发生变化，并以一种方式活跃起来，世界对我们来说将永远看起来不同，对我们来说感觉也将永远不同，我们的自我认知也会发生变化。
It's something that biologists still understand at the level of hormones and hypothalamic circuitry, but that has really not been matched to a psychological understanding and vice versa.
生物学家仍然在激素和下丘脑回路的水平上理解这一点，但这实际上与心理学的理解并不相符，反之亦然。
So nothing is quite like the music you listen to when you're a teenager.
所以没有什么比你十几岁的时候听的音乐更好的了。
It brings you back.
它让你回来。
The memories you form, positive and negative, stamp down, boom, now and forever.
你形成的记忆，无论是积极的还是消极的，都会被压垮、繁荣，无论是现在还是永远。
The emotional salience can change, but those are wild years.
情感的显着性可能会改变，但那是狂野的岁月。
What are some of the more critical needs of late adolescents and teens that are actionable?
青少年晚期和青少年有哪些更重要且可采取行动的需求？
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And yeah.
是的。
My teen years were crazy, but even if they're less crazy, they're always crazy.
我的青少年时期很疯狂，但即使不那么疯狂，他们也总是很疯狂。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yes.
是的。
Yes.
是的。
And one of the reasons I think, at least in America, that adolescence is seen as such a huge shift, like, "My kid is out of control, they're always out, they're always rejecting me," I actually don't think is unrelated to the behavioral control approaches that are inherent in American parenting.
我认为，至少在美国，青春期被视为如此巨大的转变的原因之一，比如“我的孩子失去了控制，他们总是在外面，他们总是拒绝我”，我实际上认为这与美国养育方式固有的行为控制方法无关。
Because like you referred to, your kid becomes 14, and they kind of realize like, "Wait.
因为就像你提到的，你的孩子 14 岁了，他们会意识到，“等等。
I'm bigger than one of my parents." Really don't care about their sticker charts anymore, and we might have missed 14 years of building a relationship.
我比我的父母之一都大。”真的不再关心他们的贴纸图表了，我们可能已经错过了14年的建立关系。
And so what that kid's adolescence is going to look like is markedly different than if for those past 14 years, you weren't giving in to everything, no, but you were leading in a sturdier, more connected way.
因此，这个孩子的青春期将会与过去 14 年的情况明显不同，你没有屈服于一切，不，但你以一种更坚定、更紧密的方式领导。
So I really think this whole idea that American adolescents reject everything, I actually think not all of it.
所以我真的认为美国青少年拒绝一切的整个想法，我实际上不认为全部。
A part of it is completely developmentally normal, but a big part of it relates to this tradition of behavioral control that kids cannot reject until they're at the age that they kind of could survive on their own, which is adolescence.
其中一部分在发育上是完全正常的，但很大一部分与这种行为控制传统有关，孩子们不能拒绝这种行为控制传统，直到他们到了可以独立生存的年龄，即青春期。
So I think that's really important.
所以我认为这非常重要。
The things I would tell parents to really keep in mind that are critical, number one is related to that.
我要告诉父母真正要牢记的最重要的事情，第一与此相关。
A teen's job is to separate and to start to form their own identity.
青少年的工作是分离并开始形成自己的身份。
And I think there's a couple things about that parents need to know.
我认为父母需要了解一些事情。
Number one, I don't think we prepare parents enough for the true sense of loss they feel when their kids are adolescents, because that's very real.
第一，我认为我们没有为父母做好足够的准备来应对孩子青少年时所感受到的真正的失落感，因为这是非常真实的。
You've just spent all these years, and you've driven them to every soccer, and they kind of talk to you in the backseat, and maybe you have family movie nights, and then all of a sudden, they don't want any of that.
你花了这么多年的时间，你带着他们去看每场足球比赛，他们在后座上和你说话，也许你有家庭电影之夜，然后突然间，他们不想要这些了。
And it's just so important for parents to know, "I'm going to feel sad.
对于父母来说，知道“我会感到悲伤”非常重要。
I'm going to feel loss." And if we don't know to expect it, we often kind of infuse that into a lot of anger toward our kid.
我会感到失落。”如果我们不知道会发生什么，我们常常会对我们的孩子产生很多愤怒。
And so I just think that's normal, and we should talk about that more.
所以我认为这很正常，我们应该更多地讨论这一点。
And parents of adolescents need to be talking about that with each other.
青少年的父母需要互相讨论这个问题。
Of course, you miss that.
当然，你会想念那个。
That's totally normal.
这是完全正常的。
Number two related to that separation.
第二点与那次分离有关。
If you think about identity formation, like here's a kid and us, and we're kind of close, and they now are at the stage where developmentally their job at that stage is to figure out who they are.
如果你考虑身份的形成，就像这是一个孩子和我们，我们有点亲密，他们现在正处于发展阶段，他们在这个阶段的工作就是弄清楚他们是谁。
They have to over-correct.
他们必须过度纠正。
You have to kind of over-correct in the amount of space you take because it's really the only way you can figure out, "Wait, maybe I do want to take parts of that.
你必须对你所占用的空间量进行过度修正，因为这确实是你能弄清楚的唯一方法，“等等，也许我确实想占用其中的一部分。
That part's okay." And so I think that's a powerful image to think about.
那部分没问题。”所以我认为这是一个值得思考的强有力的形象。
They are moving far away.
他们正在搬到很远的地方。
That distance they take from you is not their final point.
他们与你之间的距离并不是他们的最终目标。
They will move closer.
他们会走得更近。
Now, going back to loss, not as close as they used to be, and that is different, but this is their way of trying to figure out who they are.
现在，回到失落，不像以前那么亲密，这是不同的，但这是他们试图弄清楚自己是谁的方式。
Then the last thing I'd say that kind of relates to that image is even as they move away, I think parents massively underestimate how much they still need us there making efforts to connect.
然后我要说的最后一件事是，即使他们搬走了，我认为父母们仍然严重低估了他们仍然需要我们努力与他们建立联系。
And I always think the difference in an explorer and a nomad is whether or not you have a home base.
我一直认为探险家和游牧民族的区别就在于是否有一个大本营。
And if our teens feel like nomads, it's not a good situation.
如果我们的青少年感觉像游牧民族，那就不是一个好情况。
They're explorers.
他们是探险家。
They try a million different things.
他们尝试一百万种不同的事情。
But they really do need us.
但他们确实需要我们。
They need to know that they have a home.
他们需要知道他们有一个家。
And I'll never forget in my private practice, I used to work with teens not that long ago, just the teens, sometimes the parents, too.
我永远不会忘记，在我的私人诊所中，不久前我曾经与青少年一起工作，只是青少年，有时也包括父母。
And this teen came to me, and this was extreme.
这个青少年来找我，这很极端。
She had been really in a bad place with her parents, like intense conflict.
她和父母的关系确实很不好，冲突很激烈。
And they got in this huge fight, and she was really, really upset.
他们陷入了这场激烈的争吵，她真的非常非常沮丧。
And she was describing this to me.
她正在向我描述这一点。
She's like, "And then I was like, 'Get out of my room.
她说，“然后我说，‘滚出我的房间。
Get out.
出去吧。
I hate you.
我恨你。
Get out.'" And I was just sitting there listening, and then she like, "And I pushed him out, and I slammed the door." And it was a couple of minutes later, opened the door.
滚出去。’”我只是坐在那里听，然后她说，“我把他推了出去，然后关上了门。”几分钟后，门打开了。
My heart's racing.
我的心在狂跳。
Can you believe they weren't there?
你能相信他们不在那里吗？
Can you believe they weren't there?
你能相信他们不在那里吗？
And to me, it was just this like-- and again, it's not about being a punching bag, but her seeming anger and her intense pain were so close together in her own story that it's just over and over the same thing.
对我来说，这就像——再说一次，这并不是要成为一个出气筒，但她表面上的愤怒和她强烈的痛苦在她自己的故事中是如此紧密地结合在一起，以至于一遍又一遍地重复着同一件事。
They're going to reject you.
他们会拒绝你。
They're going to say, "Get out of my room." And yes, it sucks, but they want you to slip a note under their door after you've taken a couple of minutes that says, "That was really tough," or, "Wow, that got out of control.
他们会说：“滚出我的房间。”是的，这很糟糕，但他们希望你在几分钟后在他们的门下塞一张纸条，上面写着“那真的很难”，或者“哇，事情失去了控制。
You're a good kid, and I love you." And I want to just tell parents of teens, you're going to do that.
你是个好孩子，我爱你。”我想告诉青少年的父母，你们要这么做。
There's going to be a pause, and then you will hear them rip up the note.
会有一个停顿，然后你会听到他们撕掉纸条。
You will.
你会。
And I swear to any parent that that still resonated, and your kid is, again, trying to figure out, "How do I stay close with my parents when I'm figuring out who I am?" So they rip up the note because they almost have to do it to take in how much they're still desperate for those bids for a connection.
我向所有父母发誓，这仍然引起了共鸣，而你的孩子再次试图弄清楚，“当我弄清楚我是谁时，我如何与父母保持亲密关系？”因此，他们撕毁了这张纸条，因为他们几乎不得不这样做，因为他们仍然迫切需要这些连接的出价。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sounds a lot like the dynamics of adult relationships, although hopefully with a little bit less dramatic accentuation.
听起来很像成人关系的动态，尽管希望没有那么戏剧性的强调。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But even if it does, it's like these circuits that are laid down in childhood, early childhood, they persist, right?
但即使是这样，就像这些在童年、幼儿时期就铺设好的电路一样，它们会持续存在，对吗？
I think if anything has become clear to me in understanding brain development and brain function, it's that we don't discard circuitry for attachment and go, "Oh, that was for mom, and this one was for dad, and that one was for the dog," and then the romantic relationship is different.
我想，如果说我在理解大脑发育和大脑功能方面已经清楚了一些事情的话，那就是我们不会放弃依恋的电路，然后说：“哦，那个是给妈妈的，这个是给爸爸的，那个是给狗的，”然后浪漫的关系就不同了。
We repurpose the circuits.
我们重新调整电路的用途。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hence all the beautiful work on childhood attachment that's now being translated to adult attachment.
因此，所有关于童年依恋的精彩工作现在都被转化为成人依恋。
I realize there's nuance to it, but I was reflecting a bit on this, again, incredibly potent phrase or mention of explorers versus nomads, of having a home base, and thinking about these psychology experiments where children are observed in the presence of their caretakers.
我意识到其中存在细微差别，但我再次反思了这个令人难以置信的有力短语或提及探险家与游牧民族，拥有一个大本营，并思考这些在看护者在场的情况下观察儿童的心理学实验。
Sometimes the strange situation task-
有时会遇到奇怪的情况任务——
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
where kids are separated from their moms, and the mom and child, typically mom, nowadays it's also been done with other caretakers and dads, reunite.
孩子们与妈妈分离，妈妈和孩子（通常是妈妈）现在也可以与其他看护者和爸爸团聚。
But one doesn't even have to know about those experiments.
但人们甚至不必了解这些实验。
All you have to do is go to a park or be out in public and see a little toddler venturing away from parent, and then what do they do every once in a while?
你所要做的就是去公园或在公共场合看到一个小孩子冒险离开父母，然后他们偶尔会做什么？
They look back.
他们回头看。
They're just trying to check to make sure they're there.
他们只是想检查一下以确保他们在那里。
Even the kids that aren't taking off on the tricycle like crazy-
即使是那些没有疯狂地骑着三轮车出发的孩子们——
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
will eventually stop and look back.
最终会停下来回头看。
It's like this fundamental circuit, where looking back, and how far they feel they can go is in direct relationship to presumably the number of times that-
就像这个基本电路一样，回顾过去，他们感觉自己能走多远，大概与以下次数有直接关系——
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
They've recharged
他们已经充电了
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that they recharge and we're able to see that verification that the parent was still there.
他们会充电，我们可以看到父母仍然在那里的验证。
I think this notion of explorers versus nomads, and being an explorer obviously being a good thing, a healthy thing, within reason, and nomads just feeling adrift, untethered.
我认为探险家与游牧民族的概念，作为一名探险家显然是一件好事，一件健康的事情，在合理范围内，而游牧民族只是感觉漂泊，不受束缚。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
One of the scariest words, at least to me, in the English language.
至少对我来说，英语中最可怕的单词之一。
So the note under the door.
所以门下面贴了纸条。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It included the words, "I love you."
其中包括“我爱你”这句话。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I don't want to get too detailed here, but those words sometimes are never spoken in a home, sadly.
我不想在这里说得太详细，但遗憾的是，有时在家里从来不会说这些话。
Sometimes are spoken so often and under so many circumstances that one wonders, like, do they lose their potency?
有时在如此多的情况下如此频繁地被提及，以至于人们想知道它们是否会失去效力？
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But I noticed that in that note, it finished, "I love you." It's sort of like stating, at the end of the day, no matter what you say, probably even what you do.
但我注意到那张纸条的结尾是“我爱你”。这有点像在一天结束时说，无论你说什么，甚至可能做什么。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I've been in the presence of parents of kids that were criminals, that did horrible things.
我见过一些犯罪孩子的父母，他们做了可怕的事情。
They still love their kids.
他们仍然爱他们的孩子。
So reminding kids that under any and all circumstances.
所以提醒孩子们在任何情况下都要记住这一点。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yeah, and again, and I think what's so critical because our brain collapses is, that doesn't mean you think their behavior is okay.
是的，再说一次，我认为最重要的是，因为我们的大脑崩溃了，这并不意味着你认为他们的行为是好的。
And I get the fear.
我感到恐惧。
I would never want to send my kid the message that it's okay to, quote, "do certain things." Right?
我永远不想向我的孩子传达这样的信息：可以引用“做某些事情”。正确的？
Like that it's okay to just scream at your parents.
像这样对父母大喊大叫就可以了。
Of course, it's not okay.
当然，这是不行的。
It's just, I think we miss like, that happened.
只是，我想我们很怀念那件事。
Like that happened already.
就像那样的事情已经发生了。
Like if I drop my phone and it broke, and I was trying to understand why it broke, trying to understand that doesn't mean it's okay that I dropped it.
就像如果我的手机掉下来，它就坏了，我试图理解它为什么坏了，试图理解这并不意味着我把它掉了就没关系。
Like, it just dropped.
就像，它刚刚掉落。
Like, it already happened.
就像，它已经发生了。
Now what?
现在怎么办？
And yeah, our kids need to know that they're loved.
是的，我们的孩子需要知道他们是被爱的。
And that, again, there's kind of like in that message, I think, like I still see you're a good kid under that moment.
再说一遍，我想，那条信息中有点像，就像在那一刻我仍然认为你是一个好孩子。
And I actually think it's a powerful strategy for every parent to kind of conjure up a good kid image.
事实上，我认为对于每个父母来说，塑造一个好孩子的形象都是一个强有力的策略。
Like, what is it?
就像，那是什么？
Was it that last time we were playing this game, and it was just so fun?
是不是上次我们玩这个游戏的时候就觉得很好玩？
Or is it a memory of my kid when they were three, and like, I don't know, they did this really cute thing.
或者这是我孩子三岁时的记忆，就像，我不知道，他们做了一件非常可爱的事情。
And it kind of like really crystallizes that.
这有点像真正具体化了。
And like, even under this bad behavior, that kid's still there.
就像，即使在这种恶劣的行为下，那个孩子仍然在那里。
And the kids who behave the worst are in the deepest pain.
而表现最差的孩子则承受着最深的痛苦。
I mean, the adults, too.
我的意思是，成年人也一样。
And that's not to say it's okay, but again, we're talking about relationships we want to be in.
这并不是说这没问题，但我们再次谈论的是我们想要建立的关系。
Like, if you're in a relationship with your teen, it's not one of you are like, "This is toxic." Like, "This is my kid.
就像，如果你和你的孩子有关系，你们中的一个人不会说“这有毒”。就像，“这是我的孩子。
I'm going to be in a relationship with them." So, remembering that they're in pain.
我将与他们建立关系。”所以，记住他们正处于痛苦之中。
Teens are in a lot of pain.
青少年承受着很大的痛苦。
They're exploring a new world.
他们正在探索一个新世界。
Frankly, right now, like teens have a world, we don't understand it.
坦率地说，现在，就像青少年有一个世界一样，我们不理解它。
That's so helpful for parents to approach your teen just as a tangible tool and say, "There's so many things in your world that I don't understand, and frankly, probably I might criticize or judge.
这对于父母来说非常有帮助，他们可以把孩子当作一个有形的工具来接近你的孩子，并说：“你的世界里有很多东西我不明白，坦白说，我可能会批评或评判。
Can you take out your phone?
你能拿出你的手机吗？
This," whatever it is, "this app you're on, this video game, can we just even time box this, five minutes?
这个，“不管它是什么，”你正在使用的这个应用程序，这个视频游戏，我们可以把这个时间限制为五分钟吗？
I just want to end this conversation saying I understand it better." I promise you, that's probably going to do more for your relationship with your kid than anything else.
我只是想结束这次谈话，说我更理解了。”我向你保证，这可能比其他任何事情都更能改善你和孩子的关系。
Because yes, they do, and they might reject you.
因为是的，他们确实这么做了，而且他们可能会拒绝你。
And if you do, again, don't take the bait, but ask again next week.
如果你再次这样做，不要上当，而是下周再问。
Again, they need us to return.
他们再次需要我们返回。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, one thing's for sure, none of us, except those that are teens, know what it's like to be a teenager in 2024.
是的，有一件事是肯定的，除了青少年之外，我们没有人知道 2024 年青少年会是什么样子。
Just like they didn't know what it was like to be a teenager for me in the late '80s, early '90s.
就像他们不知道我在 80 年代末、90 年代初的青少年生活是什么样子一样。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
How could they?
他们怎么能呢？
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
So, what are your thoughts on family meetings?
那么，您对家庭会议有何看法？
Like once a week, we sit down, we check in.
就像每周一次，我们坐下来，签到。
I hear that people do this, may have participated in these before.
我听说有人这样做，可能以前参加过这些。
Do you feel like those can be useful, or is it more window dressing?
你觉得这些有用吗，还是只是装饰门面？
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
I guess it depends what's happening in there.
我想这取决于那里发生了什么。
The idea of, like, "Hey, there's a lot going on in our life, and we have a ritual of coming together and talking things through, working through problems." If that's what it is, that's a beautiful thing.
这个想法就像，“嘿，我们的生活中发生了很多事情，我们有一个聚在一起讨论事情、解决问题的仪式。”如果真是这样，那真是一件美好的事情。
I hear that, my first thought is, "I should do that." But you're right.
听到这个消息，我的第一个想法是：“我应该这么做。”但你是对的。
Life gets messy.
生活变得一团糟。
But if it's done in a way where it feels we end and everyone feels a little bit more understood and a little bit more purpose and making things move forward in a positive direction, that's amazing.
但如果它以一种感觉我们结束了的方式完成，每个人都感觉多一点被理解，多一点目标，并使事情朝着积极的方向前进，那就太棒了。
I think family meetings, it's funny, the way I think about them often, which is just different, is it's actually a great strategy, especially when your kids are older and there's somewhat of an ongoing conflict.
我认为家庭会议很有趣，我经常思考家庭会议的方式，这只是不同的，它实际上是一个很好的策略，特别是当你的孩子长大了并且存在一些持续的冲突时。
So maybe there's an ongoing conflict about how much video game time or how late they can stay out.
因此，关于他们可以玩多少电子游戏或玩到多晚，可能存在持续的冲突。
And to say to a kid, and again, this just comes from, again, so important for teens.
再次对一个孩子说，这对青少年来说非常重要。
We have to approach our kid like we're on the same team.
我们必须像在同一个团队中一样对待我们的孩子。
I always say, "Me and my kid against a problem, not me against my kid where they are the problem." And so to say, "Hey, you've been late," or, "We have to figure out your curfew," and like, "Look, you're a smart kid.
我总是说，“我和我的孩子反对一个问题，而不是我反对我的孩子，因为他们是问题所在。”所以可以说，“嘿，你迟到了”，或者“我们必须弄清楚你的宵禁时间”，或者“看，你是个聪明的孩子。
You're a good kid.
你是个好孩子。
My number one job is to keep you safe.
我的首要任务是保证你的安全。
But you're old now, and if I just tell you a time, it's the same thing that happened last year.
但你现在老了，如果我只是告诉你一个时间，那就是去年发生的同样的事情。
We're going to get in fights all year.
我们将全年都在战斗。
Why don't we sit down, and we'll do what I do in my office.
我们为什么不坐下来，我们就做我在办公室做的事情。
There's two people.
有两个人。
They each have ideas.
他们各有想法。
I'm going to bring a pad of paper," and that's actually super important, "And I'm going to write down all of your ideas and my ideas, and then we're just going to go through and cross out the ones that feel completely unreasonable.
我会带一张纸，”这实际上非常重要，“我会写下你和我的所有想法，然后我们会仔细检查并删除那些感觉完全不合理的想法。
And I have a feeling when we do that, we're going to come to a good place." So again, you can see there's that hope I'm giving.
我有一种感觉，当我们这样做时，我们将会到达一个好地方。”再说一次，你可以看到我给予的希望。
Like, I hold the positive outcome, same team.
就像，我持有积极的结果，同一个团队。
I'm giving my kid credit in advance.
我提前给了我孩子学分。
It's usually the opposite of what teens feel, which is just, "My parents don't even listen to me or care and think they have all the answers."
这通常与青少年的感受相反，即“我的父母甚至不听我或关心我，并认为他们拥有所有答案。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I've heard this notion of couple, parents come first and kids come second.
我听说过这样的夫妻观念：父母第一，孩子第二。
And some people are probably like, "What?
有些人可能会说，“什么？
Well, clearly never parented." Well, no, actually, it's an interesting idea, perhaps not correct or incorrect, but maybe dynamic across time where The real question is, if kids know that they are running the family in terms of what they do or their inability to not be attended to, et cetera, is driving the whole relationship that the parents are in-
嗯，显然从来没有养育过孩子。”嗯，不，实际上，这是一个有趣的想法，也许不正确或不正确，但也许随着时间的推移而动态变化，真正的问题是，如果孩子们知道他们在管理家庭，他们所做的事情或他们无法不被照顾等等，正在推动父母所处的整个关系——
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
versus recognizing, and here I'm imagining two-parent home, but-
与认识相比，我在这里想象双亲家庭，但是-
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Sure
当然可以
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
we could talk about divorced or people with significant others or single-parent homes.
我们可以谈论离婚的人、有重要他人的人或单亲家庭。
I've been in all of those.
我都经历过这些。
You got to wonder, are kids really paying attention to how much they are being prioritized to the point where if they observe their parents tending to their own needs, that they feel deprivation, or does it make them feel safer?
你可能会想，孩子们是否真的关注他们被优先考虑的程度，以至于如果他们观察到父母满足自己的需求，他们会感到被剥夺，还是会让他们感到更安全？
Like, "Hey, Mom and/or Dad are taking care of themselves and can show up better."
就像，“嘿，妈妈和/或爸爸正在照顾自己，可以表现得更好。”
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yes.
是的。
I think that is critically important.
我认为这一点至关重要。
And it kind of goes again to boundaries of a parent.
这又再次触及了父母的界限。
My relationship with my kid is so important, and I'm not going to let that take over me.
我和孩子的关系非常重要，我不会让它接管我。
That is not all of me.
这不是我的全部。
I am not only a caregiver to my kid.
我不仅是我孩子的照顾者。
I would stand by that all day long.
我会整天坚持这一点。
Is that an important part of me?
这是我的重要组成部分吗？
And it's still a part of me.
它仍然是我的一部分。
And I think this is really important to own as a parent, because again, we get apologist for it, or we look for our kids' permission.
我认为作为父母，这一点非常重要，因为我们再次为此得到辩护者，或者我们寻求孩子的许可。
We'll say, "Look, I need to go out with Dad without you, okay?
我们会说：“听着，我需要和爸爸一起出去，而不带你，好吗？
We have a relationship too." Again, there's that job confusion, and my kid feels that.
我们也有关系。”工作上又出现了混乱，我的孩子也有这样的感觉。
And again, it's that kind of giving them too much power.
再说一次，这给了他们太多的权力。
I've said this to my kids a lot.
我已经对我的孩子说过很多次了。
So they'll say, "Why do you go out with Dad without me?" I'll say, "It's a great question.
所以他们会说：“你为什么不带我和爸爸一起出去？”我会说：“这是一个很好的问题。
First of all, Dad and I were married before we had kids.
首先，我和爸爸在生孩子之前就结婚了。
Our relationship is really important to us, and we love being with you.
我们的关系对我们来说非常重要，我们喜欢和你在一起。
And being with you is different than just being the two of us, and that really, really matters to us.
和你在一起和只是我们两个人在一起是不一样的，这对我们来说真的非常重要。
And so you don't have to be happy about it." And let's say I have a babysitter I know they're safe with.
所以你不必为此感到高兴。”假设我有一个保姆，我知道他们在一起很安全。
"You can cry when I leave, and the babysitter will hold you, and we're going to go out to dinner, and we're going to come back, and I'll see you in the morning." Yeah, I think that is so important.
“我走的时候你可以哭，保姆会抱着你，我们出去吃晚饭，我们会回来的，早上见。”是的，我认为这非常重要。
I actually think this entire topic, this topic of rage in parenthood is a big topic.
事实上，我认为整个话题，这个关于为人父母的愤怒话题是一个大话题。
Why do I get to these moments of rage so often that my screaming is not just screaming at my kids, it's really rageful.
为什么我经常遇到这些愤怒的时刻，以至于我的尖叫不仅仅是对我的孩子尖叫，而是真的很愤怒。
And I think the parents often who are the most vulnerable to that are the ones where they're not meeting any of their non-caregiving needs.
我认为最容易受到这种影响的父母往往是那些没有满足任何非照顾需求的父母。
Which makes sense that a part of them is screaming out, like, "What about me?
这是有道理的，他们中的一部分人尖叫着，比如，“那我呢？
I used to go to dance class.
我以前经常去上舞蹈课。
I used to see friends.
我以前经常去见朋友。
I used to go out with my partner and talk about things other than our kids." And so again, I think the kids need a sturdy leader, right, more than anything else, and sturdiness is not allowing yourself to be taken over by any one thing, including your relationship with your kid.
我过去常常和我的伴侣出去谈论孩子以外的事情。”再说一次，我认为孩子们需要一个坚强的领导者，对吧，比什么都重要，而坚强就是不让自己被任何一件事所控制，包括你和孩子的关系。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is it truly better for there to be two sturdy leaders than one sturdy leader?
两个坚强的领导者真的比一个坚强的领导者更好吗？
I realize this is a controversial question.
我意识到这是一个有争议的问题。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yeah.
是的。
I know, and I know there's research to back this up, that having one kind of sturdy leader in your life is massively protective.
我知道，而且我知道有研究支持这一点，在你的生活中拥有一位坚强的领导者会给你带来巨大的保护。
I really believe that.
我真的相信这一点。
And so when parents will say, "My partner isn't..." I'm like, "We have research.
因此，当父母说，“我的伴侣不是……”时，我会说，“我们有研究。
This is true." Is two better than one?
这是真的。”两个比一个好吗？
I don't know the research.
我不知道这项研究。
Probably.
大概。
I don't know.
我不知道。
But what I think is important in there, too, is what's not great for kids is having all the caregivers be some perfectly attuned caregiver.
但我认为其中也很重要的是，对孩子来说不太好的事情是让所有的照顾者都是一些完美协调的照顾者。
Right?
正确的？
That actually does not set up your kid for life at all.
这实际上根本无法让你的孩子终生受益。
Right?
正确的？
Because I don't know anyone who thinks the partner I'm going to be with one day is going to be perfectly attuned to all my needs.
因为我不知道有谁会认为有一天我要在一起的伴侣会完全满足我的所有需求。
Let me go find that person.
让我去找那个人。
So, you have one sturdy leader, you have two, but being sturdy, part of that is you're going to rupture.
所以，你有一个坚强的领导者，你有两个，但坚强的一部分就是你会破裂。
You're going to rupture, you're going to mess up, you're going to hopefully repair after.
你会破裂，你会搞砸，但之后你会希望能够修复。
But sturdiness, I just want to make clear, is so not the same as perfection.
但我只是想澄清一下，坚固并不等同于完美。
Perfection is creepy.
完美是令人毛骨悚然的。
It's not a thing.
这不是一件事。
No one needs that.
没有人需要那个。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I love that.
我喜欢那个。
It's the first time I've laughed out loud on this podcast- ...
这是我第一次在这个播客上大声笑出来——......
about a statement like that.
关于这样的声明。
Yeah.
是的。
The notion of perfection is kind of creepy.
完美的概念有点令人毛骨悚然。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But sturdiness is anything but creepy.
但坚固一点也不令人毛骨悚然。
It's just such a beautiful word for all the right reasons.
这是一个如此美丽的词，有充分的理由。
What about behavioral examples in parents?
父母的行为例子又如何呢？
So for instance, if children observe parents being affectionate to one another in appropriate ways, right?
举例来说，如果孩子们观察到父母以适当的方式彼此关爱，对吗？
Attending to one another in boundaried but empathically attuned ways.
以有限但富有同理心的方式相互照顾。
Do you think that projects forward into their notion of what adult relationships are like and should be like?
你认为这是否会影响他们对于成人关系是什么样子以及应该是什么样子的观念？
Conversely, if parents are yelling at one another, do you think that projects forward into it's okay to yell in adult relationships?
相反，如果父母互相大喊大叫，你认为这会转化为在成人关系中大喊大叫是可以的吗？
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yeah, I think kids are expert noticers.
是的，我认为孩子们是观察专家。
They notice everything, right?
他们注意到一切，对吧？
It's part of how they've learned to survive as such helpless humans.
这是他们作为无助的人类如何学会生存的一部分。
So they definitely notice.
所以他们肯定注意到了。
They definitely act like sponges.
它们的行为绝对像海绵。
So yes, if you're kind of privileged enough in that way to grow up in a home where you have parents who, in general, are fairly affectionate, they take responsibility for their stuff, they communicate in a healthy way, I think that is a true privilege you go into adulthood with, yes.
所以，是的，如果你有足够的特权在这样的家庭中长大，你的父母一般都相当慈爱，他们对自己的东西负责，他们以健康的方式沟通，我认为这是你成年后真正的特权，是的。
The other extreme, right?
另一个极端，对吗？
You grow up with parents who they yell, or they can even yell in scary voices.
你和父母一起长大，他们会大喊大叫，甚至会用可怕的声音大喊大叫。
Again, what I think is really important is the witnessing of that isn't going to be as impactful to a kid as the witnessing of it and nobody naming it and talking to them about it.
再说一次，我认为真正重要的是，目睹这件事对孩子的影响力不会像目睹这件事而没有人说出它的名字并与他们谈论它那样。
So this is why so often, kids will be in difficult stages, intense tantrums, major issues at school, and someone's like, "What do I do?
因此，这就是为什么孩子们经常会处于困难阶段、大发脾气、学校出现重大问题，有人会问：“我该怎么办？
What do I do with this?" Well, I gave you all the strategies in the world, but if that is just your kid's way of kind of manifesting all of their struggles with this huge marital conflict that's happening, it's not going to work.
我该怎么办？好吧，我给了你世界上所有的策略，但如果这只是你的孩子表现出他们与正在发生的巨大婚姻冲突的所有斗争的方式，那就行不通了。
So it's all part of the same system.
所以它们都是同一个系统的一部分。
And so saying to your kid after you fight with your partner, "Hey, I think you heard Daddy and I screaming.
所以在你和你的伴侣吵架后对你的孩子说：“嘿，我想你听到了爸爸和我的尖叫声。
And I'm sure that felt scary, because it does feel scary because they know you're their base.
我确信这让人感到害怕，因为这确实让人感到害怕，因为他们知道你是他们的基地。
So if their base is of a house is like, feels like an earthquake, it feels scary.
所以如果他们的基地是一座房子，就像地震一样，感觉很可怕。
And another line I like is like, "You were right to notice that.
我喜欢的另一句话是，“你注意到这一点是对的。
We were using loud voices." Again, I think that's massively confidence-building.
我们大声疾呼。”我再次认为，这极大地建立了信心。
Maybe, "What was that like for you?" Or if you have a little kid, just that's enough.
也许，“那对你来说是什么样的？”或者如果你有一个小孩，那就足够了。
And they might look at you and say, "Can I have my snack now?" But it still really sunk in.
他们可能会看着你说：“我现在可以吃零食了吗？”但它还是真的陷进去了。
So if there is a lot of conflict, again, I think it's really important we talk about that with our kids and don't leave them alone.
因此，如果存在很多冲突，我认为与孩子讨论这一点非常重要，不要让他们独自一人。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What about teens that are really wayward?
那些真正任性的青少年怎么办？
And this could be behavioral outbursts.
这可能是行为爆发。
There's also the whole underside of this thing where it's also about withdrawal.
这件事的整个底面也与戒断有关。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Like the kids are withdrawn.
就像孩子们都孤僻一样。
We were talking about outbursts and yelling.
我们谈论着爆发和大喊大叫。
There's also the example in parents or the instances in kids that they're just really withdrawn.
还有父母或孩子的例子，他们真的很孤僻。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That they're just disengaged.
他们只是脱离了关系。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Depressed.
郁闷。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Depressed.
郁闷。
Maybe even dissociative, who knows?
甚至可能是分离的，谁知道呢？
But not good.
但不好。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And this can show up, on one end as violence, on the other end as isolation.
这一方面表现为暴力，另一方面表现为孤立。
It can show up as eating disorders.
它可能表现为饮食失调。
It can show up as all sorts of things.
它可以表现为各种各样的东西。
Intervention before age 18 is "easier" in the sense that one has legal control.
从拥有法律控制权的意义上来说，18 岁之前的干预“更容易”。
But oftentimes it's hard for parents to know, how bad is this?
但父母通常很难知道，这有多糟糕？
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I did an entire episode about cannabis and I spoke to some of the medical benefits of cannabis for adults who are non-addicts, but I also talked a lot about some of the risks.
我做了一整集关于大麻的节目，我谈到了大麻对非成瘾成年人的一些医疗益处，但我也谈到了一些风险。
But let's take an example that I think is pretty common, like kids 15, 16 start smoking some THC with their friends and you go, "Okay, well, everyone does that," "not as bad as alcohol," which I think is a lame argument.
但让我们举一个我认为很常见的例子，比如 15、16 岁的孩子开始和朋友一起吸一些 THC，然后你会说，“好吧，好吧，每个人都这样做”，“不像酒精那么糟糕”，我认为这是一个蹩脚的论点。
This is lame.
这太蹩脚了。
It doesn't make any sense.
这没有任何意义。
Yeah, getting hit by a car isn't as bad as getting hit by a train, but okay.
是的，被汽车撞到不像被火车撞到那么糟糕，但是没关系。
But the point is, most all parents are like, "Okay, clearly they're self-medicating," they think they can't stop them.
但关键是，大多数父母都会说，“好吧，显然他们是在自我治疗”，他们认为自己无法阻止他们。
But you can stop them.
但你可以阻止他们。
At what point do you then put them into a residential treatment program, if you could even afford that?
如果您能负担得起的话，您什么时候将他们纳入住院治疗计划？
It's really tough-
实在是太难了——
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
It is
它是
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
for people to know how much to intervene in what is clearly not good behavior, and it sometimes can be bad behavior.
让人们知道对哪些明显不好的行为进行干预，有时可能是不好的行为。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And yet the kids are using it to self-medicate and there's a peer system that sometimes reinforces that.
然而孩子们却用它来自我治疗，而同伴系统有时会强化这一点。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This is a huge landscape.
这是一片巨大的风景。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Maybe we have you back to talk just about this, but maybe we can presage that discussion.
也许我们会让你回来讨论这个问题，但也许我们可以预示那个讨论。
But what do you tell people in your practice?
但你在实践中告诉人们什么呢？
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Like get in there now, pull the emergency cord, and get this handled.
就像现在就进入那里，拉动应急绳，然后处理这个问题。
Or do you say, "Listen, you just got to work with the system." And it's a tough problem I'm throwing at you here, but-
或者你会说，“听着，你只需要使用系统即可。”我在这里向你提出一个棘手的问题，但是-
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yeah.
是的。
I think the first thing is like how do I as a parent even assess?
我认为第一件事是作为父母我该如何评估？
Is this normal?
这是正常的吗？
Is it not normal?
这不正常吗？
Is it a problem?
有问题吗？
Is it not?
不是吗？
So I think there's a couple things we could think about there.
所以我认为我们可以考虑一些事情。
Number one, just seeing impact on overall functioning is always one barometer, right?
第一，仅仅看到对整体功能的影响始终是一个晴雨表，对吗？
So, okay, can my child perform the kind of tasks of their developmental stage?
那么，好吧，我的孩子可以执行他们发育阶段的任务吗？
Okay, so this is not the only thing, but are they still going to school?
好吧，这不是唯一的事情，但他们还在上学吗？
Wow, I noticed since they're smoking a lot of weed, their grades went from Bs to Ds.
哇，我注意到，由于他们吸了很多大麻，他们的成绩从 B 变成了 D。
Okay, they don't care about school anymore.
好吧，他们不再关心学校了。
They used to actually go out with friends.
他们过去常常和朋友一起出去。
Now, unless they're with this one crew where they smoke in the park, they're not even seeing these kids they used to be friends with.
现在，除非他们和这群在公园里抽烟的人在一起，否则他们甚至看不到这些他们曾经是朋友的孩子。
They don't want to go to family functions anymore.
他们不想再参加家庭活动了。
They used to play soccer.
他们曾经踢足球。
If I'm answering this, I'd be like, wow, I'm not really talking just about a marijuana problem.
如果我回答这个问题，我会说，哇，我并不是真的在谈论大麻问题。
I'm talking about my kid not engaging in the developmental tasks.
我说的是我的孩子没有参与发展任务。
That I would say is just like it's time to seek additional support, right?
我想说的是，现在是寻求额外支持的时候了，对吗？
Another sign is just how limited their world has become be because of this, right?
另一个迹象是他们的世界因此变得多么有限，对吗？
So again, has this kind of taken over everything they do?
那么，这是否已经接管了他们所做的一切？
My kid is depressed, let's say, and all of a sudden their world has gotten really, really small.
比如说，我的孩子很沮丧，突然间他们的世界变得非常非常小。
And it's not just that, that's the way they've always lived.
不仅如此，这就是他们一直以来的生活方式。
There's a big change.
有很大的变化。
The amount of conflict in the home.
家庭中的冲突程度。
Again, is there conflict when you have teens?
再说一遍，当你有青少年时会发生冲突吗？
Of course there is.
当然有。
But wow, is it really hard to talk to my teen for more than four minutes?
但是哇，和我的孩子交谈超过四分钟真的很难吗？
Walking on eggshells to me is also a sign that we need additional help.
对我来说如履薄冰也表明我们需要额外的帮助。
Am I scared to intervene in a way that would actually be in line with my values?
我是否害怕以实际上符合我价值观的方式进行干预？
That's not a good sign, right?
这不是一个好兆头，对吧？
Then the other thing I just want to make sure everyone knows is seeking additional help is a sign of every single thing that's right with the family, and I think we think it's a sign of something that's wrong.
然后，我想确保每个人都知道的另一件事是寻求额外的帮助，这是家庭中每件事都正确的标志，我认为我们认为这是错误的标志。
And it's also a sign of what's right in terms of messaging that to your kid.
这也是向您的孩子传递信息的正确方式的标志。
Again, I think about a kid who I used to see in my practice.
我再次想起了我在练习中经常见到的一个孩子。
She was probably 16 when she came to me.
她来找我时大概16岁。
She was cutting serious, so a lot, right?
她很认真，很多，对吧？
And I remember saying, just intake, "Hey, how long have you been doing this?" She goes, "Two years." I go, "Oh, did you see another therapist before you saw me?" And she's like, "No." She was very kind of quippy and quick and I was just like, "Why?" And she's like, "Well, I told my parents that if they took me to a therapist, I would go and I would just waste all their money.
我记得我只是说：“嘿，你这样做多久了？”她说：“两年了。”我说：“哦，在见我之前你还见过其他治疗师吗？”她说：“不。”她很有趣，反应很快，我就想，“为什么？”她说：“好吧，我告诉我的父母，如果他们带我去看治疗师，我就会去，但我会浪费他们所有的钱。
I'd be quiet, and then when they left me there, I would just leave.
我会保持安静，然后当他们把我留在那里时，我就会离开。
And who's going to stop a 14-year-old from walking away?
谁能阻止一个 14 岁的孩子离开？
And they might as well save their money because they can't make me." Okay?
他们还不如省点钱，因为他们无法逼迫我。”可以吗？
And again, I just kind of sensed to stay quiet.
再一次，我只是觉得要保持安静。
And she seriously, one of the next things she said is, "Can you believe they let me make that decision?" Literally said that.
她认真地说，她接下来说的一件事是，“你能相信他们让我做出这个决定吗？”字面意思就是这么说的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wow.
哇。
Validates everything you said up until now.
验证您到目前为止所说的一切。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Everything.
一切。
And it is.
确实如此。
This is where I feel like I get my best ideas.
我觉得我在这里得到了最好的想法。
That's right.
没错。
A 14-year-old can convince her parent that she won't go to therapy when she's cutting.
一个 14 岁的女孩可以让她的父母相信她在自割时不会去接受治疗。
That is not okay.
那不行。
And again, then we go to, "Okay, so I'm going to say to my kid, 'You are going.'" And I'm like, no, there's so much between that.
然后我们再一次说，“好吧，我要对我的孩子说，‘你要走了。’”我想，不，这之间有很多东西。
We're in these binary states.
我们处于这些二元状态。
Your kid's feelings about therapy cannot dictate your boundary, right?
你孩子对治疗的感受不能决定你的界限，对吧？
But we can't just then come down harshly.
但我们不能就这样严厉地镇压。
And so I coach parents on this all the time.
所以我一直在这方面指导父母。
What do you say to a kid?
你对一个孩子说什么？
"I love you." Hear me.
“我爱你。”听我说。
Like, "I love you We're in a tough stage.
就像，“我爱你，我们正处于艰难的阶段。
I see this problem, and I do think even when our kids get older, we can say this, "My number one job is to keep you safe.
我看到了这个问题，而且我确实认为即使我们的孩子长大了，我们也可以这样说：“我的首要工作是保证你的安全。
It is not to keep you happy with me."
这并不是为了让你和我在一起快乐。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
"And I actually love you so much that I'm willing to do things that make you unhappy with me."
“而且我其实很爱你，所以我愿意做一些让你对我不满意的事情。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
"That is actually how much I care about you.
“这其实就是我对你的关心程度。
And so I am going to be driving you.
所以我会开车送你。
And if you want to curse at me the whole time, I will sit in that waiting room, and you know what I'm going to do the next week?
如果你想一直咒骂我，我会坐在候诊室里，你知道下周我要做什么吗？
I'm going to tell you I love you, I'm going to do the same thing." And I think adults hearing that on some level, there's some internal truth of like, "I probably needed that." Like that feels oddly good.
我会告诉你我爱你，我也会做同样的事情。”我认为成年人在某种程度上听到这句话，其中有一些内在的真相，比如“我可能需要那个。”就这样感觉出奇的好。
Because you know I'm not messing around.
因为你知道我不是在胡闹。
But there's this way, whereas parents who've said, "The way to show my kid I'm not messing around is to be mean to them." There was nothing mean about what I said.
但有一种方法，而父母们则说：“让我的孩子知道我没有胡闹的方法就是对他们刻薄。”我说的话并没有什么恶意。
I think it was more loving than saying to a kid, "Okay, let me know when you want to go." That is not loving.
我认为这比对一个孩子说“好吧，你想去的时候告诉我”更有爱。那不是爱。
And so I think our teens sometimes in those moments, they need us to do our job and be the pilot.
所以我认为我们的青少年有时在那些时刻，他们需要我们做好我们的工作并成为飞行员。
It is the small amount of time where they're still a passenger.
他们仍然是乘客的时间很短。
When they're 18, they are the pilot.
当他们18岁的时候，他们就是飞行员。
And so we have this window.
所以我们就有了这个窗口。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There's nothing I want to probe more into that.
我不想对此进行更多探讨。
I think you captured it beautifully and it gets back to this issue of safety.
我认为你把它捕捉得很漂亮，它又回到了安全问题。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In letting them make their own decision when they're clearly in trouble, if anything could make a kid feel unsafe, a teen or younger, or adult, it's that.
当他们明显遇到麻烦时，让他们自己做出决定，如果有什么事情会让孩子感到不安全，无论是青少年还是更年轻的孩子，还是成年人，那就是。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's like letting the passenger on the plane.
这就像让乘客上飞机一样。
Be like, "Hey, instead of rerouting, how about you just come up here and fly?"
就像，“嘿，与其改变路线，不如直接飞到这里来？”
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
That's literally what it is.
字面意思就是这样。
And they're like, "I can't believe you believed my little protest, now I'm in the cockpit?" Like this-- They don't want that.
他们就像，“我不敢相信你竟然相信我的小抗议，现在我在驾驶舱里了？”就像这样——他们不想要这样。
That's why their words, teens' words, it's not that we don't believe them, as you see I'm big on believing.
这就是为什么他们的话，青少年的话，并不是我们不相信他们，正如你所看到的，我非常相信。
Their words often are a representation of their fears.
他们的言语往往代表了他们的恐惧。
All of us in our worst moments.
我们所有人都处于最糟糕的时刻。
"Get out." I feel like sometimes that's their fear or they're kind of talking to their emotion.
“出去。”我觉得有时这是他们的恐惧，或者他们是在表达自己的情绪。
They're not really talking to you in that moment.
那一刻他们并没有真正在和你说话。
They're so dysregulated and just learning to not take it so literally and be like, "What am I really believing?
他们如此失调，只是学着不从字面上理解，然后说：“我真正相信什么？
My kid is in pain, they're cutting.
我的孩子很痛苦，他们正在割伤。
My kid is in pain, they're smoking weed 30 times a day and don't go to class." I know that they need help.
我的孩子很痛苦，他们每天吸 30 次大麻，而且不去上课。”我知道他们需要帮助。
And again, any parent who can say that, to me, is the strongest parent, and that is such a sign of health.
再说一次，对我来说，任何能这么说的父母都是最坚强的父母，这是健康的标志。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I don't think I'd still be alive today if it wasn't for non-parent mentors and just examples in the world.
如果没有非父母的导师和世界上的榜样，我想我今天不会还活着。
These aren't always people that were like, "Hey, I'm going to take you under my wing and be your mentor." Actually, that was rarely the case.
这些人并不总是会说：“嘿，我会把你置于我的保护之下，并成为你的导师。”事实上，这种情况很少发生。
But people in my real life or in my reading or there wasn't YouTube back then, but sometimes now, people I've-- I'm a huge fan, for instance, of this Jungian psychologist, James Hollis, who has these beautiful lectures on making a life.
但我现实生活中的人，或者我阅读中的人，或者当时没有 YouTube，但有时，我的人——例如，我是这位荣格心理学家詹姆斯·霍利斯 (James Hollis) 的超级粉丝，他有这些关于创造生活的精彩讲座。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I'm learning so much.
我学到了很多。
I consider him a mentor.
我认为他是一位导师。
Sorry, James, you didn't have a choice.
抱歉，詹姆斯，你别无选择。
You're a mentor.
你是一位导师。
But these people that we can internalize certain healthy aspects that our parents just apparently can't seem to arrange for themselves.
但我们可以内化这些人的某些健康方面，而我们的父母显然无法为自己安排这些方面。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And that we wish they had.
我们希望他们有。
But I think that we, as children of all ages, we want perfect parents.
但我认为，作为各个年龄段的孩子，我们都想要完美的父母。
We don't get them.
我们不明白他们。
But it seems appropriate to me.
但这对我来说似乎很合适。
I'd love your thoughts.
我很想听听你的想法。
It seems appropriate to me to have kind of a foraging for examples of where we can get certain things that we can internalize for ourselves so that we can benefit that maybe our parents just aren't interested in, capable of, or even alive to provide us anymore.
对我来说，寻找一些例子似乎是合适的，我们可以在哪里获得某些我们可以内化的东西，这样我们就可以受益，也许我们的父母只是不再感兴趣，没有能力，甚至活着不再提供给我们。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yeah.
是的。
I mean, that being everything to someone, I don't want my kids to ever say that about me.
我的意思是，这对某人来说就是一切，我不希望我的孩子这样说我。
"My mom was everything.
“我的妈妈就是一切。
She fulfilled my every need." Again, I do find that creepy whenever-- I don't know.
她满足了我的每一个需要。”再说一次，我确实觉得这很令人毛骨悚然——我不知道。
And just setting them up for so much relationship disappointment.
这只是让他们对关系感到如此失望。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
My mom gave some things and now that I also work a lot, it's funny with my kids, there is this mom, when kids have a sleepover at her house, I mean, it is the best sleepover experience.
我妈妈给了我一些东西，现在我也工作了很多，这对我的孩子们来说很有趣，有一位妈妈，当孩子们在她家过夜时，我的意思是，这是最好的过夜体验。
I see pictures and I'm like, "Wow, that was so thoughtful.
我看到照片就想，“哇，太周到了。
That was amazing." She puts it together.
那真是太棒了。”她把它放在一起。
She's creative.
她很有创意。
And me and my kids joke.
我和我的孩子们开玩笑。
They're like, "Yeah, Mom, you're bottom of the list in that stuff." And I am.
他们会说，“是的，妈妈，你在这方面排在最后。”我也是。
And I know I'm toward the top of the list in other things.
我知道我在其他方面都名列前茅。
I don't want to be toward the-- First of all, I don't want to hold myself to that standard.
我不想成为——首先，我不想让自己遵守这个标准。
That's a great way to implode.
这是一个很好的内爆方式。
So yeah, being able to say to my kid, "Oh, you guys won't have a sleepover.
所以，是的，能够对我的孩子说：“哦，你们不会过夜的。
You'd rather go to her house because that's-- Okay." That's not an indictment of me.
你宁愿去她家，因为那是——好吧。”这不是对我的控诉。
And so maybe this is some, quote, mentor-like figure for someone who can put these details and make people feel really taken care of in that way.
因此，也许这是一个像导师一样的人物，他可以提供这些细节，让人们感到真正受到了这种方式的照顾。
That's great.
那太棒了。
And I think, yes, giving your kid permission and encouragement, again, I think is such a gift to them later on.
我认为，是的，再次给予你的孩子许可和鼓励，我认为这对他们以后来说是一份礼物。
Yeah, our relationship with our kids becomes not only the foundation, their expectations for their relationship with other adults, I mean, I also think it's literally what they're attracted to.
是的，我们与孩子的关系不仅成为他们对与其他成年人关系的期望的基础，我的意思是，我也认为这确实是他们被吸引的地方。
I think when they're attracted to someone later on, it's just the activation of that earliest attachment.
我认为当他们后来被某人吸引时，这只是最早的依恋的激活。
And so if they can get activated around someone who seems to be pretty attuned and respectful and validating and boundaried because they also have other things in their life and not everything, that's a privilege to say, "That's what I'm expecting." So I think those other relationships, and as a parent, to hear your kid say, "My coach taught me this thing," and sometimes they say it in a catty way, "So much better than what you said to do at lacrosse." And just to take a deep breath, and again, this is where you can say, "I'm still a good parent, even outside this moment." Be like, "I'm so glad you're talking to me about this.
因此，如果他们能在一个似乎非常协调、尊重、认可和界限的人周围被激活，因为他们的生活中还有其他事情，而不是一切，那么他们很荣幸地说，“这就是我所期待的。”所以我认为在其他关系中，作为父母，听到你的孩子说，“我的教练教了我这件事，”有时他们会以尖酸刻薄的方式说，“比你在长曲棍球上说的要好得多。”深吸一口气，再次，你可以说：“即使在这一刻之外，我仍然是一个好父母。”可以这样说：“我很高兴你能跟我谈论这件事。
I believe you.
我相信你。
Tell me more about this." Such a beautiful example for your kid.
告诉我更多有关此事的信息。”这对你的孩子来说是一个美丽的例子。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So being able to validate and embrace the fact that there are other sources of healthy upbringing is, yeah Not just perhaps is clearly a good thing.
因此，能够验证并接受健康教养还有其他来源这一事实，是的，不仅仅是也许，这显然是一件好事。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do I have that right?
我有这个权利吗？
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
I think that's right.
我认为这是对的。
And I think if that's hard for a parent, what I'd say is, it's a question without an exact answer, but where did I learn that I'm supposed to be everything to someone?
我想，如果这对父母来说很难，我想说的是，这是一个没有确切答案的问题，但我从哪里知道我应该成为某人的一切？
And I think a lot of women, we learn that in our families of origin, to be good girls, which really just means I have no wants and needs of my own, and I just kind of gaze out and see how I can do things for you, and I can be everything for you.
我认为很多女性，我们在原生家庭中了解到，要成为好女孩，这实际上意味着我自己没有想要和需要，我只是凝视着外面，看看我能为你做些什么，我可以为你做一切。
And then we have kids, and we don't realize we put that onto them, but like you said, those patterns travel with us.
然后我们有了孩子，我们没有意识到我们把这些放在了他们身上，但就像你说的，这些模式伴随着我们。
And I find it very relieving to be like, maybe if I don't-- Wow, it just gave me a good percentage of energy back.
我发现这让我很轻松，也许如果我不这样做的话——哇，它只是给了我很大比例的能量回来。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Uh-huh
嗯嗯
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
I can do so many other things now.
我现在可以做很多其他事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
It's empowering.
它充满力量。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I love it.
我喜欢它。
Something that, it's an unpleasant topic, just by as soon as people hear the word, but it's something that I think comes up on the child side, the teen side, and the parenting side, and in adult relationships of all kind, which is the dreaded entitlement.
这是一个令人不愉快的话题，人们一听到这个词，但我认为它会出现在儿童、青少年、养育子女以及各种成人关系中，这是可怕的权利。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Ooh, dirty word in parenting.
哦，养育子女的脏话。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Entitlement.
权利。
Maybe we could put some definition on entitlement and talk about-
也许我们可以对权利下一些定义并讨论-
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
when it's bad.
当情况不好的时候。
Is it always bad?
总是不好吗？
When it's neutral and when it's, I don't know, is it ever good?
当它是中性的，当它是，我不知道，它是好的吗？
I don't know.
我不知道。
Entitlement doesn't sound like it's ever good, but-
权利听起来不太好，但是——
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Well, I think, yeah.
嗯，我想，是的。
There is a healthy entitlement, right?
有健康的权利，对吗？
And I think that is kind of the entitlement to like, I'm allowed to want things, and I'm allowed to, at moments in my life, even act on that, to turn that want into a fulfillment of my want.
我认为这是一种喜欢的权利，我被允许想要一些东西，并且我被允许在生命中的某些时刻甚至采取行动，将这种想要变成我想要的满足。
I think that actually goes back to what we were just saying.
我认为这实际上又回到了我们刚才所说的。
Versus, how can I please you?
相反，我该如何取悦你？
Maybe I want to do something.
也许我想做点什么。
So, I think that healthy entitlement, that's a good thing.
所以，我认为健康的权利是一件好事。
But when I hear parents say, "Please, I just don't want an entitled kid," they're not talking about that.
但当我听到父母说：“拜托，我只是不想要一个有资格的孩子”时，他们并不是在谈论这个。
Right?
正确的？
And they're talking about, and to me, the story from my practice is just the key thing that makes us parents cringe, was this family I was seeing in New York City, and they were very wealthy, and they had this 16-year-old son, and they were flying, I think, back from Hawaii or to Hawaii, and they were just getting ready to board, and first class was boarding, and the son goes up, and they're like, "Oh, sweet, we're not in first class.
他们正在谈论，对我来说，我实践中的故事只是让我们父母感到畏缩的关键事情，是我在纽约见到的这个家庭，他们非常富有，他们有一个 16 岁的儿子，我想他们正在从夏威夷飞回或飞往夏威夷，他们正准备登机，头等舱正在登机，儿子升了，他们就像，“哦，天哪，我们不是头等舱。
We have to wait." And he had a basically a full tantrum in the airport.
我们必须等待。”他在机场基本上就发脾气了。
Like every parent's worst nightmare, literally.
从字面上看，就像每个父母最可怕的噩梦一样。
And they came to me afterwards being like, "How did we get here?" Right?
后来他们来找我，问我：“我们是怎么到这里的？”正确的？
Now, this is a family, in general, too, they flew first class, they had private planes, had a lot of money.
现在，这是一个家庭，总的来说，他们也坐头等舱，他们有私人飞机，有很多钱。
But entitlement to me doesn't always have to be about money.
但我的权利并不总是与金钱有关。
I'm going to give you my definition of entitlement.
我将向您提供我对权利的定义。
I think it's very different.
我认为这是非常不同的。
But to me, the definition like boundaries is useful because it gives you a pathway of what to do.
但对我来说，像边界这样的定义很有用，因为它为你提供了一条做什么的途径。
I think entitlement is the fear of frustration.
我认为权利是对挫折的恐惧。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hmm.
嗯。
Beautiful.
美丽的。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Because if we go back, okay, that thing didn't start at 16.
因为如果我们回顾过去，好吧，那件事并不是从 16 点开始的。
I started kind of collecting stories, and right, this is a kid who they had, and again, they had a driver.
我开始收集故事，对，这是他们有一个孩子，而且他们有一个司机。
There's nothing wrong with having a driver.
有司机也没什么问题。
But I'm just thinking about waiting for a subway.
但我只想等地铁。
It's frustrating.
真令人沮丧。
"You just missed the subway.
“你刚刚错过了地铁。
We're going to be late." No. Right?
我们要迟到了。”不，对吗？
This was a kid who didn't make, as I understand, he's older, I remember, didn't make the soccer team.
据我了解，这个孩子没能入选，我记得他年纪大了，没能入选足球队。
Don't worry.
不用担心。
We have someone who's going to take you to the nearby town in New Jersey and get on that soccer team.
我们有人会带你去新泽西州附近的小镇并加入那个足球队。
Right?
正确的？
And I think about what this kid started to learn about being frustrated.
我想到这个孩子开始从沮丧中学到什么。
And it was kind of like frustration comes up, and what gets layered next to it is someone else bringing you an exit.
这有点像挫败感出现，紧接着是其他人给你带来了出口。
Frustration, exit from frustration.
挫折，从挫折中退出。
Maybe even exit to success, right?
甚至可能成功退出，对吗？
And then I started to think, like, well, what would it be like if there was 16 years of kind of, again, because it doesn't happen, of that pattern and that circuit reinforcing?
然后我开始思考，如果有 16 年的时间，因为这种模式和电路强化没有发生，那会是什么样子？
Because what you're really learning as a kid, I'm frustrated, and that's very overwhelming for me, but the adults around me must be scared of my frustration because they won't let me sit in it.
因为你小时候真正学到的东西，我很沮丧，这对我来说非常难以承受，但我周围的成年人一定害怕我的沮丧，因为他们不会让我坐在其中。
They won't let me feel it.
他们不会让我感觉到。
They will actually kind of run in circles to not have me feel.
他们实际上会绕圈跑，以免让我有感觉。
So, I actually encode my frustration next to fear.
所以，我实际上把我的挫败感编码到恐惧旁边。
Now I'm 16, and I'm expecting first class, and I get lowly coach.
现在我16岁了，我期待头等舱，但我得到的是低级教练。
People are like, "Oh, what a spoiled kid." I feel like this kid was insanely vulnerable in that moment.
人们会说：“哦，真是个被宠坏的孩子。”我觉得这孩子在那一刻非常脆弱。
This kid was like, "I'm frustrated, and what I expect to happen, and what I know to happen isn't here." And so, it is explosive.
这个孩子就像是，“我很沮丧，我期望发生的事情和我知道会发生的事情并不在这里。”所以，它是爆炸性的。
It appears as entitlement on the surface, but it is a deep intolerance and almost fear of frustration, which is in your body.
表面上看起来是一种权利，但它是一种深深的不宽容，甚至是对挫折的恐惧，它存在于你的身体里。
So, you're terrified of a feeling that is living in your body.
所以，你对存在于你体内的一种感觉感到恐惧。
And it looks demanding because it kind of is desperate.
它看起来要求很高，因为它有点绝望。
Like, you can't let this happen.
就像，你不能让这种事发生。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wow.
哇。
Fear of frustration as the definition of entitlement lands square in the bullseye for me.
对挫折的恐惧作为权利的定义对我来说正中靶心。
And yet, yes, I think we all default to the kind of stereotypical example of the ultra-wealthy family kid.
然而，是的，我认为我们都默认了那种典型的超级富裕家庭孩子的例子。
There was that movie, "The Toy" in the '80s.
八十年代有一部电影《玩具》。
It was a really dreadful concept, actually.
实际上，这是一个非常可怕的概念。
A kid that was just given everything and then wanted a person.
一个刚被给予一切却想要一个人的孩子。
It was really, talk about foul.
真的，谈论犯规。
It's just bad at every level.
每个级别都很糟糕。
And then they tried to create this narrative where then, there's a deeper understanding about humans and stuff that evolves from it.
然后他们试图创造这样的叙事，从而对人类和由此演变而来的事物有更深入的理解。
But the starting point was, and I've observed this in, certainly not my family, but other families where kids are given everything they want.
但出发点是，我在我的家庭中观察到了这一点，当然不是在我的家庭中，而是在其他家庭中，孩子们得到了他们想要的一切。
It never feels like enough.
永远感觉不够。
Big surprise.
大惊喜。
Dopamine is a real thing.
多巴胺是真实存在的。
The circuits recalibrate to a higher threshold.
电路重新校准到更高的阈值。
They want more and more and more.
他们想要越来越多。
It's like that movie, "Wall Street." "What's your number?" "More." Okay.
就像那部电影“华尔街”一样。 “你的电话号码是多少？” “更多的。”好的。
All right.
好的。
Nothing wrong with wanting things.
想要东西并没有什么错。
But with Without a ceiling on any of that, and without a ceiling on pleasure or bounds on experience, it crushes everybody.
但是，由于没有任何一个上限，并且在快乐或经验上没有上限，它压垮了每个人。
That's also what that movie was about.
这也是那部电影的主题。
It just crushes people.
它只会压垮人们。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So to build that into a child's neurology just seems like the worst possible thing.
因此，将其纳入儿童的神经病学似乎是最糟糕的事情。
Because it's not about the world being a place of immense possibility.
因为这并不是说世界是一个充满无限可能性的地方。
It's about the world being a place of snakes and broken glass everywhere except this narrow knife-edge path that you follow that is all about infinite resources.
这是关于世界是一个到处都是蛇和碎玻璃的地方，除了你所遵循的这条狭窄的刀锋路径之外，它都是关于无限的资源的。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
And ease.
和轻松。
That's right.
这是正确的。
And what I think is fear is because if you're in fear, you're in a threat state, which is why when kids are in that state, or adults, it seems nasty, and it's mean.
我认为恐惧是因为如果你处于恐惧之中，你就处于威胁状态，这就是为什么当孩子或成年人处于这种状态时，它看起来很恶心，而且很卑鄙。
And there's this narrowing of your eyes, right?
你的眼睛眯起来了，对吧？
So I think that's really what's happening.
所以我认为这确实是正在发生的事情。
And it's not always tied to money, but the truth is, money can easily buy a kid's way out of frustration.
它并不总是与金钱挂钩，但事实是，金钱很容易让孩子摆脱沮丧。
And by the way, it buys the parent out of having to tolerate their frustration while the kid is frustrated.
顺便说一句，它让父母不必在孩子感到沮丧时忍受自己的沮丧。
And so it's tricky.
所以这很棘手。
I think I've now talked to a bunch of parents who grew up in a very different way, were very successful, and I get it.
我想我现在已经和一群以非常不同的方式成长的父母交谈过，他们非常成功，我明白了。
They're like, "I feel like I literally have earned the right to have certain parts of my life be a lot easier." Right?
他们就像是，“我觉得我确实赢得了权利，让我生活的某些部分变得更加轻松。”正确的？
And they're like, "How do I raise a kid who isn't entitled?" Right?
他们就像，“我如何抚养一个没有资格的孩子？”正确的？
And it is a conundrum, right?
这是一个难题，对吧？
I would think we raise our kids in a candy store, it's hard to expect them to appreciate candy, right?
我想我们在糖果店里养育孩子，很难指望他们会欣赏糖果，对吧？
And so how do we balance that gratitude, the entitlement?
那么我们如何平衡这种感激之情和权利呢？
And I do think, though, that idea is we just have to-- And sometimes other people hearing this would be like, "Yeah, my life is frustrating all the time." And some people's are, right?
但我确实认为，这个想法是我们必须这样做——有时其他人听到这个会说，“是的，我的生活一直令人沮丧。”有些人是这样的，对吧？
They won't end up with entitlement.
他们最终不会获得权利。
But for other families, they almost have to be like, "I have to dose it.
但对于其他家庭来说，他们几乎不得不说，“我必须服药。
I have to make sure my kids literally have experiences, and I probably have to go through it, too." Where we are almost purposefully making sure they get enough of that so they can build different circuits.
我必须确保我的孩子确实有经历，我可能也必须经历它。”我们几乎有目的地确保他们得到足够的信息，以便他们可以构建不同的电路。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
So much to unpack there.
那里有很多东西要解压。
I think it's clear that some of this is tied to financial means.
我认为很明显，其中一些与财务手段有关。
I think it's a pretty scary thing when someone looks out on the landscape of the world as infinite possibility without any frustration.
我认为，当一个人将世界的景观视为无限的可能性而没有任何沮丧时，这是一件非常可怕的事情。
As we talked about earlier, the ability to lean into hard things as a skill that can extend to other things is so valuable.
正如我们之前谈到的，将困难的事情作为一种可以延伸到其他事情的技能的能力是非常有价值的。
Do you think that some of the smaller practices that any kid, any parent, any family, regardless of means, can lean into can really help there?
你认为任何孩子、任何父母、任何家庭，无论经济状况如何，都可以采取的一些较小的做法真的能有所帮助吗？
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Some people say grace or a prayer before a meal.
有些人在饭前做恩典或祈祷。
Others simply express gratitude.
其他人只是表达谢意。
But stopping and thinking about being breathing, being ambulatory, being any number of good things that allow us agency in life, about to eat food.
但停下来想想呼吸、行走、做任何能让我们在生活中发挥作用的好事情、关于吃食物。
Those moments, I know that our nervous system reflects on those.
那些时刻，我知道我们的神经系统会反映这些时刻。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
How could they not?
他们怎么可能不呢？
And just recognizing that at least something went into the creation of the meal.
只是认识到至少在这顿饭的制作过程中融入了一些东西。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
I think for the entitlement stuff and the frustration, there's all these small moments that we can start to make a difference.
我认为，对于权利问题和挫败感，我们可以在所有这些小时刻开始做出改变。
And I think it's saying to yourself, "Just because I can, doesn't mean I will." So my kid's young, and I pick them up from a playdate, and let's say I have a babysitter at home or my husband at home, and I have to go to a store on some errands.
我认为这是对自己说：“仅仅因为我能，并不意味着我会。”所以我的孩子还小，我从约会中接他们，假设我家里有保姆或我丈夫在家，我必须去商店做一些事情。
My kid's like, "Can you drop me off first?" Maybe I'm like, "You know what?
我的孩子会说：“你能先送我吗？”也许我会说，“你知道吗？
No. You're going to come with me on," I'm not going to say it this way, "on boring errands because you just have to tolerate that sometimes you have to do things you don't want to do.
不。你要跟我一起去，”我不会这样说，“去做一些无聊的事情，因为你不得不忍受有时你不得不做你不想做的事情。
And you're not going to learn that by me telling you that.
我告诉你这些你不会了解到这一点。
You're going to learn that by experiencing that." Something with my kids, the other day, we were at an airport, and you know in the airport, it kind of winds around to get, and there was no one there.
你将通过经历来了解这一点。”有一天，和我的孩子们一起去机场，你知道在机场，要绕一圈才能到达，而且那里没有人。
So they started to duck under all the things.
所以他们开始躲避所有的事情。
And it just made me think as a small moment.
这只是让我思考一个小小的时刻。
Entitlement also is like the rules don't apply to me in some way.
权利也就像规则在某种程度上不适用于我一样。
And I just remember, you guys, when we're in airports-
我只记得，你们，当我们在机场时-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, the lines leading up to security where you walk through the-
哦，通往安检处的队伍，你要穿过——
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yeah.
是的。
And you would duck on the sides, you mess them up.
你会躲到一边，把它们弄乱。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
And it wasn't forever, but I was like, "You guys, someone put these here for a reason." These things don't have to be such-- It's a small amount of frustration, but it's just like I don't always get to duck the line.
这不是永远的，但我想，“你们这些家伙，有人把这些放在这里是有原因的。”这些事情并不一定是这样的——这只是一点点的挫败感，但就像我并不总是能避开这条线一样。
Sometimes I have to walk a little longer.
有时我必须走更长的路。
Or I remember my kids saying, and I'm not immune to this.
或者我记得我的孩子们说过，我也不能幸免。
I am in a financial position where I have someone come sometimes help me be my housekeeper, right?
我的经济状况有时会有人来帮我当我的管家，对吗？
And she'll fold the laundry.
她还会叠衣服。
And I remember on a Sunday, my son said to me when he was younger, "Why do we have to fold the laundry?" I don't think he said it, but he was like, "Don't we have someone who could do that?" And I remember being like, this is a moment where I could be, "We're going to fold the laundry on Sundays." You know who loves folding laundry?
我记得一个星期天，我儿子小时候对我说：“为什么我们要叠衣服？”我不认为他说过这样的话，但他说，“难道我们没有人可以做到这一点吗？”我记得当时我就想，这是我可以做的事情，“我们要在周日叠衣服。”你知道谁喜欢叠衣服吗？
Maybe some people.
也许有些人。
I don't.
我不知道。
I don't love undoing the dishwasher.
我不喜欢拆开洗碗机。
It is inherently not that enjoyable.
它本质上并不是那么令人愉快。
And it's so frustrating.
这太令人沮丧了。
It's just not great.
这只是不太好。
And I know I need to make my kids do that.
我知道我需要让我的孩子们这样做。
They just have to go through that mundane thing.
他们只需要经历那些平凡的事情。
And so I think there's all of these moments, taking your kid with you on errands, doing the laundry, right?
所以我认为所有这些时刻都存在，带着你的孩子去办事、洗衣服，对吗？
Before you say to your kid, "Let's go to try out on another soccer team." Just like, "Ugh, you didn't make the team." Maybe let it go two days.
在你对你的孩子说“我们去另一支足球队试训吧”之前。就像，“呃，你没有进入球队。”也许放过两天吧。
That's at least two more days of feeling upset and frustrated, right?
至少还有两天感到不安和沮丧，对吧？
They don't have to be these big, grand things, but all of those little moments can add up in a really positive way.
它们不一定是这些大而伟大的事情，但所有这些小时刻都可以以一种非常积极的方式累积起来。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What's your stance on household chores, and should kids be paid for household chores?
您对家务的立场是什么？孩子做家务是否应该得到报酬？
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yes.
是的。
I have a whole guide to chores and allowance, and I think there's a lot of thought, should they be separate?
我有一份关于家务和津贴的完整指南，我认为有很多想法，他们应该分开吗？
I don't know.
我不知道。
I think it could be done either way.
我认为无论哪种方式都可以做到。
But to me, the question for a parent is what is the point for me?
但对我来说，父母的问题是这对我来说有什么意义？
What is my goal for chores?
我做家务的目标是什么？
What is my goal for allowance, right?
我的津贴目标是什么，对吗？
And I think that has to then structure how we do it.
我认为这必须构建我们的做法。
So my guess is for chores, part of it is I want my kid to Number one, maybe help around the house, want them to have that purpose.
所以我的猜测是做家务，部分原因是我希望我的孩子排名第一，也许可以帮忙做家务，希望他们有这个目的。
Also, I know for me, for chores, sometimes your life involves doing boring things.
另外，我知道对于我来说，对于家务，有时你的生活涉及做一些无聊的事情。
That is just true.
这是真的。
And I want my kids to know that, which means they have to experience it.
我希望我的孩子们知道这一点，这意味着他们必须经历它。
That's one of the reasons we do chores.
这就是我们做家务的原因之一。
So for me, if that's one of the reasons, I'm not going to pay my kid, because for me, in my family, what I think my kids need to get out of it is just knowing that sometimes you do boring things as part of being a good human.
所以对我来说，如果这是原因之一，我不会付钱给我的孩子，因为对我来说，在我的家庭中，我认为我的孩子需要摆脱的是知道有时你会做一些无聊的事情，作为一个好人的一部分。
For someone else, that might be totally different.
对于其他人来说，情况可能完全不同。
So I think we just ask ourselves as parents, "What am I trying to accomplish?" And then let me structure it around that.
所以我认为，作为父母，我们只需问自己：“我想实现什么目标？”然后让我围绕它构建它。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Across the course of today's discussion, I've been feeling both immense gratitude and relief for certain quote unquote, "hardships" that I experienced and things that my parents made me do or ways that they were negligent and I was forced to figure things out.
在今天的讨论过程中，我对我所经历的“困难”、我父母让我做的事情或他们疏忽的方式而感到无比的感激和宽慰，而我被迫解决这些问题。
Also, some things where I was like, "Huh.
另外，有些事情我就像，“嗯。
I wish they had done this." I think everyone listening to this will feel that way.
我希望他们这么做了。”我想每个听过这段话的人都会有这样的感觉。
And if you're lucky enough to still be in the parenting child rearing or being a child process, then there's still time.
如果你足够幸运，仍然处于养育孩子或成为孩子的过程中，那么还有时间。
So I guess there's always still time.
所以我想总是还有时间。
In my introduction to this episode, I touched on a few of these, but tell us what you're doing these days to help parents and kids-
在我对这一集的介绍中，我谈到了其中的一些内容，但请告诉我们您这些天正在做什么来帮助父母和孩子——
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
indirectly or directly to be more effective in their relationships.
间接或直接地使他们的关系更加有效。
And I know you've written about this in books, and you have a wonderful social media account on Instagram and elsewhere.
我知道你在书中写过这方面的内容，并且你在 Instagram 和其他地方有一个很棒的社交媒体帐户。
I follow it.
我跟着它。
And there's so much learning there.
那里有很多学习的东西。
But how are you translating this knowledge into actionable programs?
但如何将这些知识转化为可行的计划呢？
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yeah.
是的。
That is what gets me out of bed every morning, is translating.
这就是每天早上让我起床的原因，那就是翻译。
I always say deep thoughts, actionable, practical, can do it today strategies.
我总是说思想深刻、可操作、实际、今天就能做到的策略。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yes.
是的。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
That's the only way I can work.
这是我工作的唯一方法。
I'm like, "Tell me what to do to put that idea into action."
我想，“告诉我该怎么做才能把这个想法付诸行动。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Love it.
喜欢它。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
So, a couple of years ago, one of the things that really struck me, I really did feel angry.
所以，几年前，让我印象深刻的一件事是，我确实感到愤怒。
This is so messed up.
这太乱了。
Parents have the hardest job, and it's the one that impacts the world the most.
父母的工作是最艰巨的，也是对世界影响最大的工作。
And I don't think any of us think the world is in a great place right now, right?
我认为我们中没有人认为世界现在处于一个美好的地方，对吧？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Nah.
不。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
No.
不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's not.
事实并非如此。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Right.
对。
And I remember someone coming up to me and saying, "Parenting is also the only job you care about on your deathbed." And I think that's probably true if you have kids.
我记得有人走过来对我说：“为人父母也是你临终前唯一关心的工作。”我认为如果你有孩子的话这可能是真的。
So for every reason, this should be the place that we invest the most, or that the system is set up to help us, right?
所以无论从哪方面来说，这都应该是我们投入最多的地方，或者说这个系统是为了帮助我们而设立的，对吗？
And most people I know, they don't want to parent the exact same way as they were parented.
我认识的大多数人，他们不想以与他们被养育子女完全相同的方式来养育子女。
Maybe take parts, and that is the way we'll parent.
也许参与其中，这就是我们为人父母的方式。
It's just kind of the language we use.
这只是我们使用的语言。
And learning a new language we know is totally possible.
学习一门我们知道的新语言是完全可能的。
Duolingo has showed us that.
Duolingo 已经向我们展示了这一点。
You can learn a new language.
您可以学习一门新语言。
It's hard.
这很难。
Sometimes you revert to your language of origin, especially in stressful moments, same thing in parenting, and then you go back.
有时你会回到原来的语言，尤其是在有压力的时刻，养育孩子也是如此，然后你又回去了。
And so I remember saying to some people around me, "I want to create that Duolingo for parents." It is learning a new language, and we should have a product where we have resources in one place.
因此，我记得对周围的一些人说：“我想为父母创建 Duolingo。”它正在学习一门新语言，我们应该拥有一个将资源集中在一个地方的产品。
We should be able to connect to other parents around the globe who are doing this with us.
我们应该能够与全球其他正在与我们一起做这件事的父母建立联系。
We should have access to experts we trust, not because they always know better, but they might just help us have a different mindset and some ideas to help us, again, in my mind, to just act more in line with your own values.
我们应该接触到我们信任的专家，不是因为他们总是更了解，而是他们可能只是帮助我们拥有不同的心态和一些想法，以帮助我们，再次，在我看来，让我们的行为更加符合自己的价值观。
That's what it's about.
这就是它的意义所在。
And so that's what we created, and that's what I'm working on, and that's our Good Inside membership.
这就是我们所创造的，这就是我正在努力的，这就是我们的 Good Inside 会员资格。
And so excited about all the ways that's already impacting tens and tens of thousands of parents, and that's where the resources are.
我们对已经影响成千上万父母的所有方式感到非常兴奋，而这就是资源所在。
It's bite-size, it's actionable.
它是一口大小的，它是可操作的。
We're really known for our scripts.
我们确实以我们的剧本而闻名。
It's like, "What do I say to my kid when..." Literally, I joke, "We have a script for that." And I think in a small way, people say, "I come for the scripts, and then I stay for the revolution.
就像，“当……时我该对我的孩子说什么？”从字面上看，我开玩笑说，“我们有一个剧本。”我认为，从某种程度上来说，人们会说，“我是为了剧本而来，然后为了革命而留下来的。
This is actually a journey of my own sturdiness." And honestly, becoming a sturdier, more confident leader is the only way we can raise sturdy, more confident kids.
这其实是我自己的坚强之旅。”老实说，成为一个更坚强、更自信的领导者是我们培养坚强、更自信的孩子的唯一方法。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, I've said this again and again throughout today's discussion, but I love it.
嗯，在今天的讨论中我已经一遍又一遍地说过这一点，但我喜欢它。
I love the gathering of information, the organizing it, and dispersing it in actionable ways.
我喜欢收集信息、组织信息并以可行的方式分散信息。
And you've done all of that, and you're continuing to do that, and you also have the clinical background.
你已经完成了所有这些，并且你将继续这样做，而且你也有临床背景。
And you're a parent.
而你是一位家长。
So you're speaking from professional and immediate experience, and you put oh, so much work into it.
所以你是根据专业和直接的经验说话的，而且你投入了很多工作。
I can tell that by the directness and simplicity of the actionables that you've taught us today, and also how much resides underneath those direct, simple actionables.
通过您今天教给我们的可操作性的直接性和简单性，以及这些直接、简单的可操作性背后隐藏着多少内容，我可以看出这一点。
Just beautiful.
就是很漂亮。
I've had many conversations on this podcast with many brilliant people, including yourself, but this is among the ones that I really say has really me thinking, and I don't think I've ever said "wow" so many times during the discussion here.
我在这个播客上与许多才华横溢的人进行了很多对话，包括你自己，但这是我真正所说的真正让我思考的对话之一，而且我认为我在这里的讨论中从来没有说过这么多次“哇”。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And there's just so much knowledge to be gleaned from today's discussion, thanks to you.
感谢您，从今天的讨论中可以收集到很多知识。
And just on behalf of myself and everyone listening, parents and kids, and those who want to be parents, and those who don't, and who have made the choice not to and are certainly engaged in other forms of relationship, this is just absolute gold that you've provided us.
仅代表我自己和所有听众，父母和孩子，以及那些想成为父母的人和那些不想成为父母的人，以及那些选择不做父母并且肯定正在从事其他形式关系的人，这只是您为我们提供的绝对黄金。
So thank you ever so much.
所以非常感谢你。
Your generosity, your clarity of communication, and the heart behind it really comes through.
你的慷慨、你清晰的沟通以及背后的真心都表现得淋漓尽致。
So thank you.
所以谢谢你。
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
贝基·肯尼迪博士：
Thank you so much.
非常感谢。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thank you for joining me for today's discussion about parent-child and other types of relationships with Dr. Becky Kennedy.
感谢您今天与贝基·肯尼迪博士一起讨论亲子关系和其他类型的关系。
To learn more about Dr. Kennedy's work, please see the links in the show note captions, including the links to her best-selling book, Good Inside, and to the online learning platform for better parenting.
要了解有关肯尼迪博士工作的更多信息，请参阅节目注释标题中的链接，包括她的畅销书《Good Inside》的链接以及更好育儿的在线学习平台的链接。
You can also find links to her social media accounts.
您还可以找到她的社交媒体帐户的链接。
As I mentioned during today's episode, she has a terrific Instagram account in which she regularly posts practical tools for better parenting and other types of relationships.
正如我在今天的节目中提到的，她有一个很棒的 Instagram 帐户，她经常在其中发布实用工具，以改善养育子女和其他类型的关系。
If you're learning from and/or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel.
如果您正在学习和/或喜欢此播客，请订阅我们的 YouTube 频道。
That's a terrific zero-cost way to support us.
这是支持我们的绝佳零成本方式。
In addition, please subscribe to the podcast on both Spotify and Apple.
此外，请在 Spotify 和 Apple 上订阅该播客。
And on both Spotify and Apple, you can leave us up to a five-star review.
在 Spotify 和 Apple 上，您都可以给我们五星级的评价。
Please check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode.
请查看今天节目开头和整个节目中提到的赞助商。
That's the best way to support this podcast.
这是支持这个播客的最佳方式。
If you have questions or comments about the podcast or topics or guests that you'd like to suggest for the Huberman Lab Podcast, please put those in the comment section on YouTube.
如果您对播客有任何疑问或意见，或者想向 Huberman 实验室播客推荐主题或嘉宾，请将这些问题或意见放入 YouTube 的评论部分。
I do read all the comments.
我确实阅读了所有评论。
If you're not already following me on social media, I am Huberman Lab on all social media platforms.
如果您还没有在社交媒体上关注我，我是所有社交媒体平台上的 Huberman Lab。
So that's Instagram, Twitter, now called X, LinkedIn, Facebook, and Threads.
这就是 Instagram、Twitter（现在称为 X）、LinkedIn、Facebook 和 Threads。
And on all those platforms, I discuss science and science-related tools, some of which overlaps with the content of the Huberman Lab Podcast, but much of which is distinct from the content covered on the Huberman Lab Podcast.
在所有这些平台上，我讨论科学和与科学相关的工具，其中一些与胡伯曼实验室播客的内容重叠，但其中大部分与胡伯曼实验室播客涵盖的内容不同。
Again, that's Huberman Lab on all social media platforms.
再说一次，这就是所有社交媒体平台上的 Huberman Lab。
If you haven't already subscribed to our monthly Neural Network Newsletter, our Neural Network Newsletter is a zero-cost newsletter that includes podcast summaries and protocols as short one to three-page PDFs.
如果您还没有订阅我们的每月神经网络新闻通讯，我们的神经网络新闻通讯是一份零成本新闻通讯，其中包括一到三页 PDF 格式的播客摘要和协议。
For instance, we have zero-cost protocols for improving sleep, for improving dopamine function, for deliberate cold exposure, for fitness, for learning and neuroplasticity, and much more.
例如，我们有零成本方案来改善睡眠、改善多巴胺功能、刻意冷暴露、健身、学习和神经可塑性等等。
To sign up for the newsletter, simply go to hubermanlab.com, go to the Menu tab, scroll down to Newsletter, and supply your email.
要注册新闻通讯，只需访问 hubermanlab.com，转到“菜单”选项卡，向下滚动到新闻通讯，然后提供您的电子邮件。
Again, the newsletter is completely zero cost, and I want to emphasize that we do not share your email with anybody.
再次强调，时事通讯完全是零成本，我想强调的是，我们不会与任何人分享您的电子邮件。
Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Becky Kennedy.
再次感谢您参加今天与贝基·肯尼迪博士的讨论。
And last but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.
最后但并非最不重要的一点是，感谢您对科学的兴趣。