Dr. Becky Kennedy: Overcoming Guilt & Building Tenacity in Kids & Adults

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.

欢迎来到休伯曼实验室播客，我们在这里讨论科学和基于科学的日常生活工具。

I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.

我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。

My guest today is Dr. Becky Kennedy.

今天我的客人是贝基·肯尼迪博士。

Dr. Becky Kennedy is a clinical psychologist and one of the world's foremost experts in parent-child relationships.

贝基·肯尼迪博士是一位临床心理学家，也是世界上最重要的亲子关系专家之一。

Now, you may or may not have children.

现在，您可能有孩子，也可能没有。

If you do, today's episode is absolutely for you.

如果您这样做，那么今天的节目绝对适合您。

If you don't, well, you were once a child.

如果你不这样做，那么，你也曾经是个孩子。

Perhaps you're even still a child.

也许你还只是个孩子。

Today's episode also will have valuable knowledge and tools that you can apply to your life.

今天的节目还将提供您可以应用于生活的宝贵知识和工具。

Today, Dr. Becky Kennedy teaches us an immense number of extremely valuable tools for the workplace, for romantic relationships, for family relationships of all types, not just parent-child relationships, and of course, also for parent-child relationships.

今天，贝基·肯尼迪博士教给我们大量极其有价值的工具，对于工作场所、爱情关系、各种类型的家庭关系，不仅仅是亲子关系，当然也包括亲子关系。

We discuss themes that have not been discussed previously on the Huberman Lab podcast.

我们讨论了 Huberman 实验室播客之前未讨论过的主题。

Topics such as guilt, which Dr. Becky Kennedy offers a completely unique perspective on, one that I've never heard before and that frankly, I don't think anyone has heard before.

诸如内疚之类的话题，贝基·肯尼迪博士对此提供了一种完全独特的视角，这是我以前从未听说过的，坦率地说，我认为以前没有人听说过。

In fact, she distinguishes between what most people think is guilt and an entirely different set of emotions, and offers you very useful practical tools for when you experience guilt and how to work with guilt.

事实上，她区分了大多数人认为的内疚和完全不同的情绪，并为您提供了非常有用的实用工具，帮助您了解何时感到内疚以及如何应对内疚。

We also extensively discuss frustration, or what she calls frustration tolerance.

我们还广泛讨论挫败感，或者她所说的挫败容忍度。

Frustration tolerance is an extremely important theme for everybody to understand and apply in their lives because frustration tolerance, as Dr. Becky Kennedy so aptly points out, is central to the learning process of anything at every age.

挫折容忍度是每个人在生活中理解和应用的一个极其重要的主题，因为正如贝基·肯尼迪博士恰当地指出的那样，挫折容忍度是每个年龄段任何事物学习过程的核心。

If you can understand this concept and you apply some of the very simple rules and tools that Dr. Kennedy explains during the podcast, I assure you, you can learn many more things much more quickly and with much greater satisfaction, if not during the process, certainly at the end when you master that learning.

如果你能理解这个概念，并应用肯尼迪博士在播客中解释的一些非常简单的规则和工具，我向你保证，你可以更快地学习更多的东西，并获得更大的满足感，如果不是在这个过程中，当然是在你掌握学习的最后。

And those are just a few of the themes that we discuss during today's episode.

这些只是我们在今天的节目中讨论的几个主题。

Again, whether or not you have children, I assure you that today's episode is going to be immensely beneficial for all of your relationships.

再说一遍，无论您是否有孩子，我向您保证，今天的节目将对您的所有人际关系都非常有益。

You will notice during today's episode that our studio backdrop is different.

在今天的节目中，您会注意到我们的演播室背景有所不同。

You will notice that for once, I was not wearing this particular style of shirt.

你会注意到，这一次，我没有穿这种特殊款式的衬衫。

The reason for that is that this episode was recorded during the LA fires, what was initially called the Palisades fire, and then spread to multiple fires throughout LA County.

原因是这一集是在洛杉矶火灾期间录制的，最初被称为帕利塞兹火灾，然后蔓延到整个洛杉矶县的多起火灾。

So we were not able to access our normal studio, so I want to express extreme gratitude to Rich Roll, our good friend in the podcasting space, who allowed us to use his podcast studio, which is where I'm seated now, and where I held the discussion with Dr. Becky Kennedy.

所以我们无法进入正常的工作室，所以我要对我们在播客领域的好朋友 Rich Roll 表示极大的感谢，他允许我们使用他的播客工作室，这就是我现在坐的地方，也是我与贝基·肯尼迪博士进行讨论的地方。

First off, our entire team, our homes, and our studio are fine.

首先，我们整个团队、我们的家和我们的工作室都很好。

I can assure you of that.

我可以向你保证这一点。

But most importantly, our thoughts and our prayers go out to the people who have lost their homes, lost pets, and sadly, there have been fatalities during the LA fires.

但最重要的是，我们的思念和祈祷与那些失去家园、失去宠物的人们同在，不幸的是，在洛杉矶火灾中造成了人员伤亡。

So our thoughts and prayers are with them and their families, and we hope everyone remains safe.

因此，我们的思念和祈祷与他们和他们的家人同在，我们希望每个人都保持安全。

Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.

在开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。

It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public.

然而，我的愿望和努力的一部分是向公众提供有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本消费者信息。

In keeping with that theme, today's episode does include sponsors.

为了与这个主题保持一致，今天的节目确实有赞助商。

And now for my discussion with Dr. Becky Kennedy.

现在我与贝基·肯尼迪博士进行讨论。

Dr. Becky Kennedy, welcome back.

贝基·肯尼迪博士，欢迎回来。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

I'm so happy to be here.

我很高兴来到这里。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Grateful to Rich Roll for lending us his studio under the duress of fires in Los Angeles.

感谢 Rich Roll 在洛杉矶大火的胁迫下将他的工作室借给我们。

I'm praying that his home is okay.

我祈祷他的家一切安好。

It's unclear at this moment, but in any event, let's talk about emotions, both theory and practice.

目前还不清楚，但无论如何，让我们谈谈情感，无论是理论还是实践。

And if we can place it in the context of parenting, that would be great, but I'm certain that this has a broader theme that pertains to everybody.

如果我们可以将其放在养育子女的背景下，那就太好了，但我确信这有一个适合每个人的更广泛的主题。

So I love the theory of emotions or how we would theoretically respond to something, but then there's the reality.

所以我喜欢情感理论，或者我们在理论上如何对某些事情做出反应，但还有现实。

So as a parent, let's say you have a stance in your home and in your family that it's okay to be sad.

因此，作为父母，假设您在家里和家人中的立场是悲伤是可以的。

Like sadness is normal, it happens, it passes, et cetera.

就像悲伤是正常的一样，它会发生，它会过去，等等。

But let's say you're feeling particularly sad about something.

但假设您对某件事感到特别悲伤。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Do you express that and show that in front of your kids?

你会在孩子面前表达并展示这一点吗？

Because I've also heard that young kids, in particular, younger than eight or nine, perhaps shouldn't be aware that their parents are experiencing, say, extreme sadness.

因为我还听说年幼的孩子，尤其是八九岁以下的孩子，也许不应该意识到他们的父母正在经历，比如说，极度的悲伤。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Mm.

嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Because it can be scary to them.

因为这对他们来说可能很可怕。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Or they might feel like their world is destabilizing.

或者他们可能会觉得他们的世界不稳定。

And then, we also hear a lot about kids feeling like they had to parent the parents, and then this whole thing becomes pretty complicated.

然后，我们也听到很多关于孩子们感觉他们必须养育父母，然后整件事变得非常复杂。

So while-

所以同时——

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

there's no perfect world where one knows what to do every single time, how do you look at this business of modeling emotions and also encouraging kids to be able to experience and express their emotions?

不存在一个人每次都知道该做什么的完美世界，您如何看待塑造情感并鼓励孩子体验和表达自己的情感这一业务？

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Yeah, and I think everything I'm about to share applies in the workplace, right?

是的，我认为我要分享的一切都适用于工作场所，对吗？

Can a boss be really upset in front of the person they manage?

老板真的会在他所管理的人面前感到不安吗？

Management, right?

管理，对吗？

So it's all the same stuff.

所以都是一样的东西。

So I guess zooming out as a start, emotions are normal.

所以我想一开始就缩小范围，情绪是正常的。

Emotions are unstoppable.

情绪是无法阻挡的。

You can't not feel sad just because you have your five-year-old in the room, right?

你不能仅仅因为房间里有你五岁的孩子就不会感到悲伤，对吗？

And I think the other thing that kind of forms my perspective is it's really hard to not show someone that you're sad.

我认为形成我观点的另一件事是，很难不向别人展示你的悲伤。

Like, you might think you're doing that well, but kids are extra perceptive.

就像，你可能认为自己做得很好，但孩子们的洞察力更强。

They are actually built to be more perceptive than we are because their survival depends on adults, so they have to always notice, "Is my adult around?

事实上，他们生来就比我们更有洞察力，因为他们的生存依赖于成年人，所以他们必须时刻注意，“我的成年人在吗？

Is my adult okay?" So they really attune to what's going on for us, right?

我大人还好吗？”所以他们确实了解我们正在发生的事情，对吗？

And so I think the kind of question is less, do I show my emotions to my kid or not?

所以我认为这种问题比较少，我是否向我的孩子表达我的情绪？

And it's more, okay, if I'm sad, my kid is going to notice.

更重要的是，好吧，如果我难过，我的孩子会注意到的。

What do I do then?

那我该怎么办？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

And as a principle, one of the things I think about often is information doesn't scare kids as much as the absence of information scares kids.

作为一项原则，我经常想到的一件事是，信息不会像缺乏信息那样让孩子们感到害怕。

So let's say there's something really awful.

假设有一些非常可怕的事情。

I don't know, as a parent, your family member, someone died of cancer.

我不知道，作为父母，你的家人，有人死于癌症。

I don't know.

我不知道。

There's something really horrible that you just found out.

你刚刚发现了一些非常可怕的事情。

There's wildfires right now.

现在正在发生野火。

Let's say you evacuated, and you found out your house burned down.

假设您撤离后发现房屋被烧毁。

You're sad.

你很伤心。

Your child is going to notice that, and you want your child to notice that.

您的孩子会注意到这一点，您也希望您的孩子注意到这一点。

You don't want your kid to be a teenager and adult who goes around the world unable to pick up on emotional cues from other people.

您不希望您的孩子成为青少年和成年人，在世界各地无法从其他人那里获得情感暗示。

That's not adaptive.

那不是自适应的。

And so the patterns we set with our kids when they're young inform their view of the world when they're older.

因此，我们在孩子年轻时为他们设定的模式会影响他们长大后对世界的看法。

And so here I am.

所以我就在这里。

Let's say it's the situation of somebody dying, and I'm upset.

假设这是一个人即将死去的情况，我很沮丧。

First of all, as a parent, tell yourself, "It's not my kid seeing me sad that's going to destabilize them.

首先，作为父母，告诉自己：“不会是我的孩子看到我悲伤，这会让他们变得不稳定。

It's seeing me sad and me making up a bogus story or denying it," because then my kid goes, "Pretty sure my mom was upset.

看到我悲伤，我编造一个虚假的故事或否认它，”因为然后我的孩子会说，“很肯定我妈妈很沮丧。

Oh, she's not?

哦，她不是吗？

Oh, she's pretending like nothing happened.

哦，她假装什么都没发生过。

Oh, she looks sad, but she's saying she's not sad." That is really upsetting.

哦，她看起来很伤心，但她说她并不悲伤。”这真是令人不安。

It would be like hearing your boss say, "Oh, yeah, 20% layoffs.

这就像听到你的老板说：“哦，是的，裁员 20%。

What are we doing?

我们在做什么？

I don't know.

我不知道。

Oh, hi.

哦，嗨。

Everything's great.

一切都很棒。

How are you?" You're like, "What is happening?"

你怎么样？”你会想，“发生了什么事？”

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Scary.

可怕。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

What you'd want is your boss say, "You just heard something.

你希望你的老板说：“你刚刚听到了一些事情。

You were right to hear that.

你听得对。

We are about to go through a really tough time.

我们即将经历一段非常艰难的时期。

I'm stressed about it, that's why I yelled.

我感到压力很大，所以我大喊大叫。

You might be stressed.

你可能会感到压力。

Here's what I know.

这是我所知道的。

This is going to be hard, and we're going to get through it together." Now, all of a sudden, that emotional experience has a container.

这将会很困难，我们将一起度过难关。”现在，突然之间，这种情感体验有了一个容器。

It has a story.

它有一个故事。

Humans need stories.

人类需要故事。

We like stories.

我们喜欢故事。

And so often we think it's the emotions that dysregulate a kid.

我们常常认为是情绪导致了孩子的失调。

It's the lack of a story to explain it.

这是缺乏一个故事来解释它。

So let's say this really did happen.

那么我们可以说这确实发生了。

People always say to me, "Okay, but Dr. Becky, my kid is four.

人们总是对我说：“好吧，但是贝基博士，我的孩子四岁了。

I'm going to say that their aunt died?

我就说他们姑姑死了？

They don't even know cancer." We don't have a better alternative.

他们甚至不知道癌症。”我们没有更好的选择。

I can't even tell you how many parents I've seen whose kids have all of these issues because of the made-up stories.

我什至无法告诉你我见过多少父母，他们的孩子因为编造的故事而出现所有这些问题。

"I just said she went to sleep for a while." Six months later, "My kid has a lot of trouble sleeping through the night." Yeah.

“我只是说她睡了一会。”六个月后，“我的孩子整晚都睡不好觉。”是的。

They haven't seen their aunt who went to sleep one time.

他们还没有见过已经睡过一次的姨妈。

Creates a huge issue.

造成一个巨大的问题。

No matter what bogus story you make up, kids can handle the truth, and they can handle the truth when it's told to them from a loving, trusted adult.

无论你编造什么样的虚假故事，孩子们都能接受事实，而且当真相是从一个充满爱心、值得信赖的成年人告诉他们的时候，他们也能接受。

It's kind of like me and you.

这有点像我和你。

Someone can tell us a hard truth, but if it's from someone you feel safe with and that you feel like also believes in you and says it honestly, it might be hard, but it doesn't feel awful.

有人可以告诉我们一个残酷的事实，但如果这是来自一个让你感到安全的人，并且你觉得他也相信你并诚实地说出来，这可能会很难，但不会感觉很糟糕。

So it's about saying to your kid, "You saw me crying." One of my favorite kind of sentences to say to kids around this, because I think it really builds their confidence, is just, "You were right to notice that.

所以就是对你的孩子说：“你看到我哭了。”我最喜欢对孩子们说的这句话之一就是，“你注意到这一点是对的，因为我认为这确实能增强他们的信心。

I was crying, and I'm feeling sad.

我哭了，我感到很难过。

And look, you saw that.

看，你看到了。

I'm going to tell you why." I'm making this up.

我会告诉你原因。”我正在弥补这个。

"Aunt Sally died.

“莎莉阿姨死了。

Do you know what dying means?

你知道死亡意味着什么吗？

Dying is when someone's body stops working." Then I pause.

死亡是指某人的身体停止工作。”然后我暂停。

This wouldn't just be a monologue.

这不仅仅是一个独白。

I'll see how my kid responds.

我看看我的孩子会如何反应。

I might add, "I'm not dying." Kids actually really need to hear that in hard times.

我可能会补充一句：“我不会死。”孩子们在困难时期实际上确实需要听到这些。

"I'm not dying.

“我不会死。

No one else is dying.

没有其他人正在死去。

I'm safe.

我很安全。

And you know what?

你知道吗？

I'm sad, and I'm still your strong mom who can take care of you." That sets the stage for such resilience and is kind of the opposite of, "Everything's fine." My kid keeps seeing me crying.

我很难过，但我仍然是你坚强的妈妈，可以照顾你。”这为这种韧性奠定了基础，并且与“一切都很好”相反。我的孩子总是看到我哭。

They keep hearing words they're not used to hearing, die, cancer, Aunt Sally, funeral, whatever it is.

他们不断听到他们不习惯听到的词语：死亡、癌症、莎莉阿姨、葬礼，无论是什么。

That situation is what makes kids feel really, really uncomfortable and unsafe.

这种情况让孩子们感到非常非常不舒服和不安全。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So it's the absence of information that causes the harm.

因此，正是信息的缺乏造成了伤害。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And it's the lack of coherence between what they're observing and feeling and kind of this open loop.

这是他们的观察和感受之间缺乏连贯性以及这种开环。

If I place it in neuroscience-y terms, I feel like the brain does think in terms of stories.

如果我用神经科学的术语来说，我觉得大脑确实是根据故事来思考的。

Stories have a beginning, middle, and an end, and they kind of want to know where they are in that story.

故事有开头、中间和结尾，他们想知道自己在故事中的位置。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

That's exactly right.

完全正确。

And the terms I would use to match your terms are coherent narrative.

我用来匹配你的术语的术语是连贯的叙述。

What is therapy?

什么是治疗？

Why does therapy help people?

为什么治疗可以帮助人们？

It's interesting.

这很有趣。

Therapy doesn't change what happened to you.

治疗不会改变你身上发生的事情。

Therapy doesn't change your past.

治疗不会改变你的过去。

Therapy does not take away the pain.

治疗并不能消除疼痛。

But the pain was never the thing that really got in our way.

但痛苦从来都不是真正阻碍我们的事情。

It was the pain plus a lack of a coherent narrative and support.

这是痛苦加上缺乏连贯的叙述和支持。

And so early on, when kids have painful experiences from witnessing you or something else, giving them a coherent narrative is what they need.

在早期，当孩子们因目睹你或其他事情而经历痛苦的​​经历时，他们需要的是给他们一个连贯的叙述。

And without that, the way I think about it is they have what I call unformulated experience.

如果没有这些，我的想法是他们拥有我所说的未表述的经验。

It's just affect and experience that kind of free floats in their body unformulated.

这只是影响和体验那种未经配制的自由漂浮在他们体内的感觉。

That tends to later show up as triggers and kind of other things in adulthood.

这往往会在成年后表现为触发因素和其他事情。

And so yeah, that's what we want to try to avoid when we can.

是的，这就是我们希望尽可能避免的情况。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I'd like to take a quick break and thank one of our sponsors, Wealthfront.

我想稍微休息一下，并感谢我们的赞助商之一 Wealthfront。

I've been using Wealthfront for my savings and my investing for nearly a decade, and I absolutely love it.

近十年来，我一直使用 Wea​​lthfront 进行储蓄和投资，我非常喜欢它。

Every January, I set new goals for the year, and one of my goals for 2025 is to focus on saving money.

每年一月，我都会设定新的一年目标，2025 年的目标之一就是专注于省钱。

Since I have Wealthfront, I'll keep that savings in my Wealthfront cash account, where I'm able to earn 4% annual percentage yield on my deposits, and you can as well.

由于我拥有 Wealthfront，我会将这笔储蓄保留在我的 Wealthfront 现金账户中，在那里我可以通过存款赚取 4% 的年收益率，您也可以。

With Wealthfront, you can earn 4% APY on your cash from partner banks until you're ready to either spend that money or invest it.

通过 Wealthfront，您可以从合作银行获得 4% 的现金年化收益，直到您准备好花掉这些钱或进行投资。

With Wealthfront, you also get free instant withdrawals to eligible accounts every day, even on weekends and holidays.

通过Wealthfront，您还可以每天免费即时提款到符合条件的账户，即使在周末和节假日也是如此。

The 4% APY is not a promotional rate.

4% APY 并非促销费率。

There's no limit to what you can deposit and earn, and you can even get protection of up to $8 million through FDIC insurance provided through Wealthfront's partner banks.

您可以存款和赚取的金额没有限制，您甚至可以通过 Wealthfront 合作银行提供的 FDIC 保险获得高达 800 万美元的保护。

Wealthfront gives you free instant withdrawals, where it takes just a few minutes to transfer your money to eligible external accounts.

Wealthfront 为您提供免费即时提款，只需几分钟即可将您的资金转入符合条件的外部账户。

It also takes just minutes to transfer your cash from the cash account to any of Wealthfront's automated investment accounts when you're ready to invest.

当您准备好投资时，只需几分钟即可将现金从现金账户转移到 Wealthfront 的任何自动投资账户。

There are already over a million people using Wealthfront to save more, earn more, and build long-term wealth.

已经有超过一百万人使用 Wea​​lthfront 来储蓄更多、赚更多钱并建立长期财富。

Earn 4% APY on your cash today.

今天就用现金赚取 4% 年化收益。

If you'd like to try Wealthfront, go to wealthfront.com/huberman to receive a free $50 bonus with a $500 deposit into your first cash account.

如果您想尝试Wealthfront，请访问wealthfront.com/huberman，在您的第一个现金账户中存入500美元即可获得免费的50美元奖金。

That's wealthfront.com/huberman to get started now.

现在就开始吧：www.realityfront.com/huberman。

This has been a paid testimonial of Wealthfront.

这是 Wealthfront 的付费推荐。

Wealthfront brokerage isn't a bank.

Wealthfront 经纪公司不是银行。

The APY is subject to change.

APY 可能会发生变化。

For more information, see the episode description.

有关更多信息，请参阅剧集描述。

Today's episode is also brought to us by Our Place.

今天的节目也是由我们的地方给我们带来的。

Our Place makes my favorite pots, pans, and other cookware.

我们的地方生产我最喜欢的锅、平底锅和其他炊具。

Surprisingly, toxic compounds such as the PFAS or forever chemicals are still found in 80% of non-stick pans, as well as utensils, appliances, and countless other kitchen products.

令人惊讶的是，80% 的不粘锅以及器皿、电器和无数其他厨房产品中仍然含有 PFAS 或永久化学物质等有毒化合物。

As I've discussed on this podcast, these PFAS or forever chemicals like Teflon, have been linked to major health issues such as endocrine disruption, gut microbiome disruption, fertility issues, and many other health problems.

正如我在本播客中讨论的那样，这些 PFAS 或永久性化学物质（如聚四氟乙烯）与内分泌干扰、肠道微生物组破坏、生育问题和许多其他健康问题等重大健康问题有关。

So it's really important to avoid them.

因此，避免它们非常重要。

This is why I've recently fallen in love with Our Place products, especially one of their cooking pans, the Titanium Always Pan Pro.

这就是为什么我最近爱上了 Our Place 产品，尤其是他们的一款烹饪锅，Titanium Always Pan Pro。

Our Place products are made with the highest quality materials and are all PFAS and toxin-free.

我们的 Place 产品采用最优质的材料制成，不含 PFAS 和毒素。

They're beautifully designed and function extremely well.

它们设计精美，功能非常好。

As I mentioned, I love the Titanium Always Pan Pro from Our Place.

正如我提到的，我喜欢我们家的 Titanium Always Pan Pro。

I cook eggs in it most mornings, and the titanium pan is designed in a way that allows the eggs to cook perfectly without sticking to the pan.

我大多数早上都会用它煮鸡蛋，钛锅的设计可以让鸡蛋完美地煮熟而不会粘在锅上。

I also cook burgers on it, and it really puts a nice sear on the burger without the meat sticking to the pan.

我还用它来做汉堡，它确实让汉堡有很好的烤焦效果，而肉却不会粘在锅上。

It's extremely easy to clean, and like all Our Place products, it's nice to look at when sitting out on the counter or stove.

它非常容易清洁，并且像所有 Our Place 产品一样，放在柜台或炉子上时看起来很漂亮。

For a limited time, Our Place is offering an exclusive 20% discount on their innovative Titanium Always Pan Pro.

在有限的时间内，Our Place 为其创新的 Titanium Always Pan Pro 提供 20% 的独家折扣。

Designed to last a lifetime and completely toxin-free.

专为终生使用且完全无毒而设计。

Visit fromourplace.com/huberman and use the code SAVEHUBERMAN20 to claim the offer.

请访问 fromourplace.com/huberman 并使用代码 SAVEHUBERMAN20 领取优惠。

With a 100-day risk-free trial, free shipping, and free returns, you can experience this game-changing cookware with zero risk.

通过 100 天无风险试用、免费送货和免费退货，您可以零风险体验这款改变游戏规则的炊具。

I can't help but put this neuroscience lens on this because I find it so interesting that what you're basically saying, if I understand correctly, is that until we can place things into a story, which is really a sense of beginning, middle, and end, a sense of time, it just reverberates in us.

我情不自禁地用神经科学的视角来看待这个问题，因为我发现它非常有趣，如果我理解正确的话，你基本上是在说，直到我们能够将事物放入一个故事中，这实际上是一种开始、中间和结束的感觉，一种时间感，它只会在我们身上产生回响。

I think I can't help myself.

我想我已经无法自拔了

I don't want to give the impression we've got fires burning all around us in terms of this building.

我不想给人留下这样的印象：这座大楼周围都在燃烧。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But with some distance between us and the fires, that's actually true, and I think one of the things that's so destabilizing for kids and adults in this kind of circumstance is that we don't know how this is going to work out.

但由于我们和火灾之间有一定距离，这实际上是事实，我认为在这种情况下，对儿童和成人来说最不稳定的事情之一是我们不知道这将如何解决。

We just don't.

我们只是不这样做。

And of course, none of us have a crystal ball.

当然，我们谁都没有水晶球。

We can't peer into the future.

我们无法预见未来。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But it's the not knowing that really extends our brain resources.

但真正扩展我们大脑资源的是未知。

And I can imagine that for a kid, seeing their parent upset and then hearing, "Well, no, I'm okay," would create this kind of open loop, where then the kid has to worry about it.

我可以想象，对于一个孩子来说，看到他们的父母心烦意乱，然后听到“嗯，不，我很好”，会造成这种开环，然后孩子必须担心它。

Like when will this come to an end?

比如这一切什么时候才能结束？

One question about expressing sadness in front of a child, and if, let's say, somebody expresses why they're sad, is it okay to accept consolation from the kid?

一个关于在孩子面前表达悲伤的问题，假设有人表达了他们为什么悲伤，可以接受孩子的安慰吗？

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Because we hear so much that as children, we shouldn't have to parent our parents.

因为我们经常听到，作为孩子，我们不应该养育我们的父母。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And this is a big theme-

这是一个大主题——

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Yes

是的

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

especially on social media nowadays.

尤其是在当今的社交媒体上。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Like were you the parent to your parent?

就像你是你父母的父母一样吗？

Were you the one that took out the trash when someone else should have done it, and therefore you took on more responsibilities?

当别人应该倒垃圾时，你是否是那个倒垃圾的人，因此你承担了更多的责任？

I don't want kids to think they shouldn't take out the trash, but-

我不想让孩子们认为他们不应该倒垃圾，但是——

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Right

右

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

you know what I mean.

你知道我的意思。

But if you're consoling a parent about a lost job, if you're the kid, rather, that is sort of the go-between between the parents, that's sort of acting as therapist.

但如果你正在安慰失去工作的父母，如果你是孩子，那么，那就是父母之间的中间人，那就是充当治疗师。

We hear about this a lot, and I think a lot of people peer into their past and say, "Yeah, I grew up way too fast."

我们经常听到这样的事情，我想很多人回顾自己的过去都会说：“是的，我成长得太快了。”

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So on the other hand, I think we would all agree that being an empathic person, teaching our kids that if somebody's crying, you walk over to that person, perhaps, and just say, "Do you want me to sit with you?" Or maybe do nothing at all.

因此，另一方面，我想我们都会同意，作为一个有同理心的人，教导我们的孩子，如果有人在哭，你可以走到那个人身边，然后说：“你想让我和你坐在一起吗？”或者也许什么也不做。

Maybe offer a solution, maybe not, but at least provide some sort of support.

也许提供解决方案，也许不提供，但至少提供某种支持。

That seems healthy.

这看起来很健康。

But the basic question is, should parents accept consolation from children when the parent is sad or experiencing some other negative emotion?

但基本问题是，当父母悲伤或经历其他负面情绪时，父母是否应该接受孩子的安慰？

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

I think this is a great question.

我认为这是一个很好的问题。

There's a couple things that are coming to mind.

我想到了几件事。

So first of all, all of this is a matter of extent and patterning.

首先，所有这一切都是一个范围和模式的问题。

Yes, we do not want our kids to feel like it is their job to take care of our emotions.

是的，我们不希望我们的孩子觉得照顾我们的情绪是他们的工作。

It's not a good situation.

这不是一个好情况。

And I think the difference here actually comes down to what the true definition of empathy is.

我认为这里的区别实际上归结为同理心的真正定义是什么。

To me, empathy is noticing someone's feelings and caring about them.

对我来说，同理心就是注意到别人的感受并关心他们。

It's not taking care of them.

这不是照顾他们。

That's a big difference.

这是一个很大的区别。

So let's say I'm crying, and my kid comes over, and this whole situation, maybe somebody died, and they're like, "Oh my goodness, Mom, can I give you a hug?" And, "Do you want me to get you a cup of water?" Okay, I just want parents to know, you don't have to say, "No!

假设我在哭，我的孩子过来了，整个情况，也许有人死了，他们就像，“哦，天哪，妈妈，我可以给你一个拥抱吗？”然后，“要我给你倒杯水吗？”好吧，我只是想让父母知道，你们不必说：“不！

I do not want you to be a parentified child." Be like, "That is so kind.

我不想让你成为一个没有父母养的孩子。”就像，“这真是太好了。

Yes, that would feel great." Okay, that's totally fine.

是的，那感觉很棒。”好吧，那完全没问题。

I think the line is, and every parent just knows this for themself, where it might get to, "Oh, you know what?

我认为这条线是，每个父母自己都知道这一点，它可能会变成，“哦，你知道吗？

I love that you're noticing I'm sad, and I love that you care about that.

我喜欢你注意到我很伤心，我喜欢你关心我。

And I also want to let you know, those are my feelings, not yours.

我也想让你知道，这些是我的感受，不是你的。

And I am really able to take care of them myself with whoever is a friend.

我真的能够和任何朋友一起照顾他们。

And you're still really allowed to be a kid who can go play, who can go have fun, who can even not listen to me once in a while when I say it's bath time.

你仍然可以做一个可以去玩的孩子，一个可以去玩的孩子，甚至可以偶尔不听我说洗澡时间了。

That's actually your job.

这实际上是你的工作。

So let's go do our jobs well." And to me, that comes down to what empathy is, the delineation of what is a parent's job and what is a kid's job.

那么我们就去做好我们的工作吧。”对我来说，这取决于什么是同理心，什么是父母的工作，什么是孩子的工作。

But also, I think all of this can get misrepresented in social media, and I don't want parents to think that they always have to chastise their kid for acting in a caring way.

而且，我认为所有这些都可能在社交媒体中被歪曲，我不希望父母认为他们总是必须因为孩子表现出关爱的方式而惩罚他们。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah, I feel like kids are, as you said before, kids are so perceptive about what their parents are experiencing, and they'll create or move towards all sorts of emotional gymnastics in order to work with that.

是的，我觉得孩子们，正如你之前所说，孩子们对父母正在经历的事情非常敏感，他们会创造或走向各种情感体操，以便与之合作。

Years ago, I saw, I think it was a YouTube video with Jim Carrey, who basically revealed that he became funny As a way to make his sick mom laugh.

几年前，我看到，我认为这是金凯瑞的 YouTube 视频，他基本上透露，他变得有趣是为了让他生病的妈妈开怀大笑。

That he grew up with a very sick mom, who was chronically ill, and so he would throw himself down the stairs and try and make her laugh.

他和一个病得很重的妈妈一起长大，她患有慢性病，所以他会从楼梯上跳下来，试图让她笑。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And he was an incredible, world-class physical comic, among other aspects of comedy.

除了喜剧的其他方面之外，他还是一位令人难以置信的世界级肢体喜剧演员。

But that his whole career was born out of this childhood tendency to notice that his mom was really hurting and try and basically make her laugh, make her feel something good.

但他的整个职业生涯都源于这种童年倾向，即注意到他的妈妈真的很受伤，并试图让她笑，让她感觉良好。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And now I'm thinking about this because it's just incredible the way that kids can pick up on something and then try and find a solution to it.

现在我正在思考这个问题，因为孩子们能够学会一些东西，然后尝试找到解决方案，这真是令人难以置信。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I could imagine that for kids who have a sick parent, could be mental challenges or physical challenges, that they've got to notice.

我可以想象，对于父母生病的孩子来说，可能会遇到精神挑战或身体挑战，他们必须注意到这一点。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And, in the case of Jim Carrey, one could argue whether or not it was adaptive or not adaptive.

而且，就金·凯瑞而言，人们可以争论它是否具有适应性。

He had this meteoric career, but eventually just left it, decided that wasn't what he wanted to do.

他的职业生涯飞速发展，但最终放弃了，因为他认为这不是他想做的事。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But leaving that extreme example aside, let's say a parent is sick with the flu or is grieving the loss of, God forbid, a spouse or something really major.

但是，抛开这个极端的例子不谈，假设父母患有流感，或者正在为失去配偶或其他重大事情而悲伤（上帝保佑，但愿不会）。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

At what point does the parent need to say, "Listen, I'm really hurting.

什么时候父母需要说：“听着，我真的很受伤。

This is bad, and I can handle it," when that might not actually be true?

这很糟糕，但我可以处理它，”但事实可能并非如此？

So the question is, how much information to give kids.

所以问题是，该给孩子多少信息。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Because you don't want to lie to them.

因为你不想对他们撒谎。

On the other hand, you don't want them to feel the burden of-

另一方面，你也不希望他们感受到以下负担——

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

of needing to worry about a circumstance.

需要担心某种情况。

And I'm framing this in the context of sick parent, but I'm also raising this thing of financial worries.

我是在父母生病的背景下提出这个问题的，但我也提出了财务担忧的问题。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I have a close friend who told me that growing up, their parent was constantly dealing with moving from one job to the next.

我有一位亲密的朋友告诉我，在成长过程中，他们的父母一直在处理从一份工作跳到下一份工作的问题。

It was like this issue of whether or not we're going to have enough resources to get through the next year was a constant question.

就好像我们是否有足够的资源度过明年这个问题是一个永恒的问题。

And this person is now in their mid-30s, and you can tell it still haunts them.

而这个人现在已经三十多岁了，看得出来这件事仍然困扰着他们。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And it's completely shaped their relationship to work and finances.

这完全塑造了他们与工作和财务的关系。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

I think we can think about this compared to, what would I want from my boss?

我想我们可以考虑一下这个问题：我想从我的老板那里得到什么？

I have a boss who's, I don't know, going through a really hard time or having a really hard time at home, and I kind of notice it.

我有一个老板，我不知道，他正在经历一段非常艰难的时期，或者在家里度过了一段非常艰难的时期，我有点注意到了这一点。

I'd probably want my boss to level with me and say, kind of again, "You're right to notice.

我可能希望我的老板对我坦白说，“你的注意到是对的。

I'm going through a hard time."

我正在经历一段艰难的时期。”

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

But at what point would it feel like, "Ooh, am I safe in this organization?" Right?

但在什么时候，你会产生这样的感觉：“哦，我在这个组织里安全吗？”正确的？

I think we probably all have a point there, and I think it's the same thing with kids.

我想我们可能都有一个观点，我认为这对孩子来说也是一样的。

Kids really do need to feel like they have sturdy parents.

孩子们确实需要感觉自己有坚强的父母。

Again, I always go back to pilots because I think airplane examples are so powerful because there's very few times in adulthood that we actually feel like our safety is truly dependent on another adult, like 100%.

再说一遍，我总是回到飞行员身上，因为我认为飞机的例子非常有力，因为在成年后，我们很少会真正感觉到我们的安全真正100%依赖于另一个成年人。

When you're a passenger in an airplane, you are 100% dependent, so it's kind of the closest dynamic.

当你是飞机上的乘客时，你是 100% 依赖的，所以这是最接近的动态。

And you can imagine what it would be like if the pilot was saying, "Going through a really hard time.

你可以想象如果飞行员说：“经历了一段非常艰难的时期，那会是什么样子。

Who wants to come in and give me, I don't know, tell me a nice story?" You'd be like, "Oh my goodness.

谁愿意进来给我讲一个好故事，我不知道？”你会说，“哦，天哪。

I get you're going through a hard time, but this is really not feeling great." Right?

我知道你正在经历一段艰难的时光，但这感觉真的不太好。”正确的？

And what that means, and which is kind of even a larger point, is if you're a pilot, you need to make sure you're really doing a lot of self-care, more than the average person, because of this outsized responsibility you have.

这意味着，也是更重要的一点，如果你是一名飞行员，你需要确保你确实比普通人做了更多的自我护理，因为你承担着巨大的责任。

This is what I think about parenting, and it's why, the bigger theme here is this is what gets me out of bed every morning so motivated is not just to help parents understand tantrums or emotions or the latest struggle in their house, although I actually love that.

这就是我对养育子女的看法，这就是为什么，这里更大的主题是，这就是让我每天早上起床的原因，所以动力不仅仅是帮助父母理解发脾气、情绪或家里最近的挣扎，尽管我真的很喜欢这样。

It's to say, hold on, we've been really sold an awful story about what it really means to be a parent and how parenting really, first and foremost, is a journey of self-care.

这就是说，等等，我们真的被灌输了一个可怕的故事，讲述了为人父母的真正意义，以及养育子女实际上首先是一个自我照顾的旅程。

How can I be the sturdiest person possible?

我怎样才能成为最坚强的人？

Who do I need in my life when things go poorly, so I don't lean on my young children and give them a responsibility that is not theirs?

当事情进展不顺利时，我的生活中需要谁，这样我就不会依赖年幼的孩子，给他们不属于他们的责任？

I was just saying to someone the other day that when you have kids, all of the unhealed parts of your childhood come right before your eyes.

前几天我刚刚对某人说，当你有了孩子时，你童年时期所有未治愈的部分都会浮现在你的眼前。

They are just triggered over and over and over with your own children.

它们只是在你自己的孩子身上一遍又一遍地触发。

Like, "Oh, my kid's whining.

就像，“哦，我的孩子在抱怨。

I can't deal with that." Oh, well, whining is probably triggering because it's kind of representative of helplessness.

我无法处理这个。”哦，好吧，抱怨可能会触发，因为它代表着无助。

What was it like in my family if I kind of felt helpless?

如果我感到有点无助，我的家人会是什么样子？

Was that allowed?

这是允许的吗？

Did I grow up in a, if you don't stop crying, I'll give you something to cry about family?

我是不是在这样的环境下长大的：如果你不停止哭泣，我会给你一些关于家庭的事情让你哭泣？

Okay, if I don't resolve that, I'm going to act that all out on my children and pass that along.

好吧，如果我不解决这个问题，我就会把这一切都用在我的孩子身上，并将其传递下去。

So all of these situations where parents are feeling all these different emotions from a trigger from something in their life, I think it goes to what I always tell parents.

因此，在所有这些情况下，父母会因生活中的某些事情而感受到所有这些不同的情绪，我认为这就是我总是告诉父母的。

You have a first and foremost job of self-care and taking care of yourself.

您的首要任务是自我照顾和照顾自己。

That doesn't mean traveling to Europe for the year and leaving your kids alone.

这并不意味着一年去欧洲旅行而让你的孩子独自一人。

It means what is going on inside you?

这意味着你内心正在发生什么？

What skills do you need?

你需要什么技能？

What networks of support do you need?

您需要哪些支持网络？

What do you have around you to help you on the hardest journey of your life, and the most rewarding one, of being a parent, so that you don't have to say to your kids, "Oh, can you kind of take care of me?"

在你一生中最艰难的旅程中，你周围有什么可以帮助你，但也是最有价值的旅程，即作为父母，这样你就不必对你的孩子说：“哦，你能照顾一下我吗？”

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Paul Conti, who came on this podcast to do a series about mental health, not just mental challenges, but also mental health, which is an interesting concept in its own right, has been quoted as saying that if you were to list out the 100 most important things for romantic relationships, it would be self-care and communication repeated 50 times.

保罗·康蒂（Paul Conti）在这个播客中做了一系列关于心理健康的节目，不仅仅是心理挑战，还有心理健康，这本身就是一个有趣的概念，有人引用他的话说，如果你要列出对浪漫关系最重要的 100 件事，那就是自我保健和沟通，重复 50 次。

And I'm thinking about that now because sounds like a pretty good model for pretty much every relationship.

我现在正在考虑这个问题，因为这听起来对于几乎所有关系来说都是一个很好的模型。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Self-care, communication.

自我保健、沟通。

And I must say, the first time I heard him say that, it wasn't on my podcast, it was on a different podcast I was sort of surprised.

我必须说，当我第一次听到他这么说时，这不是在我的播客上，而是在另一个播客上，我有点惊讶。

I thought, self-care first?

我想，先照顾好自己吧？

But the way you're framing it, it seems to me that if self-care comes first, or at least very high on the list of what parents should do, it frees up the kids to live and experience life with a lot more ease.

但从你的表述方式来看，在我看来，如果自我照顾是第一位的，或者至少是父母应该做的事情清单上的非常重要的事情，那么它会让孩子们更加轻松地生活和体验生活。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

A lot more peace.

更加平静。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And to basically unburden them of about 50,000 jobs.

并基本上减轻他们约5万个工作岗位的负担。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

That's exactly right.

完全正确。

And I think self-care has gotten misrepresented.

我认为自我保健被误解了。

It doesn't mean getting a manicure every week.

这并不意味着每周都要修指甲。

It could, if that does it for you.

可以，如果这对你有用的话。

But when I think about self-care, and I really think about the work we do with parents at Good Inside, we always say Good Inside, and our app, it's not parenting.

但当我想到自我保健时，我真的想到了我们在 Good Inside 与父母所做的工作，我们总是说 Good Inside，而我们的应用程序，它不是育儿。

It's for parents.

是给父母的。

It's for the journey of what it means to be a parent.

这是为了了解作为父母的意义。

It's for your own stuff.

这是为了你自己的东西。

It's for your triggers.

这是为了你的触发器。

It's for finally learning how to set boundaries.

这是为了最终学习如何设定界限。

It's about finally learning that it's okay to get your needs met, even when they inconvenience others.

这是关于最终认识到满足您的需求是可以的，即使它们给其他人带来不便。

It's learning that your relationships are strong enough that they can get through hard moments where people are upset with you.

它是让你知道你的人际关系足够牢固，可以度过人们对你感到不满的艰难时刻。

Right?

正确的？

It's about finally saying to, if you need to, your mother-in-law, "We can't have any visitors on Saturday." And the reason I'm finally able to do that is because I understand my self-value and all this stuff.

It's about finally saying to, if you need to, your mother-in-law, "We can't have any visitors on Saturday."我最终能够做到这一点的原因是因为我了解我的自我价值和所有这些东西。

This has nothing to do with the fact that your kid isn't sleeping at night.

这与您的孩子晚上不睡觉无关。

But that is the foundation for intervening in the way you're proud of when your kid is waking you up at 2:00 in the morning.

But that is the foundation for intervening in the way you're proud of when your kid is waking you up at 2:00 in the morning.

Right?

正确的？

So, that is the self-care.

所以，这就是自我保健。

It's really like a, not just self-care, it's self-establishment.

这真的就像一个，不仅仅是自我保健，更是自我建立。

It's self-growth, really.

确实是自我成长。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I don't know the psychology literature or clinical literature around this, but I'm thinking about speed of emotional shifts.

我不知道这方面的心理学文献或临床文献，但我正在考虑情绪转变的速度。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Mm.

嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

In my own experience of life, I've known moody people, and I've known not as moody people.

根据我自己的生活经历，我认识过喜怒无常的人，也认识过不喜怒无常的人。

I define moody as people whose moods fluctuate quickly and sometimes spontaneously.

我将喜怒无常的人定义为情绪快速波动、有时甚至自发波动的人。

But this idea that some people are steady as a rock is a great concept.

但有些人坚如磐石的想法是一个很棒的概念。

But we also know that we need to feel our emotions, express them to some extent.

But we also know that we need to feel our emotions, express them to some extent.

And yet there are people where, if we were to plot this, it would look like a high-frequency wave, where some people are really upset, then they're feeling better again.

然而，有些人，如果我们把它画出来，它看起来就像一个高频波，有些人真的很沮丧，然后他们又感觉好多了。

They're upset, then they're feeling better again.

他们很沮丧，然后又感觉好多了。

I'm not talking about extreme pathology here.

我不是在这里谈论极端病理学。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I'm talking about someone cuts them off in traffic and they're pissed, but then they're fine.

我说的是有人在交通中挡住了他们的路，他们很生气，但后来就没事了。

They're very, very happy about something they see, so it doesn't always have to be negative.

They're very, very happy about something they see, so it doesn't always have to be negative.

But then they're kind of flat affect, and then they're into something negative.

But then they're kind of flat affect, and then they're into something negative.

I think that experience of emotions is so far and away different from the experience of emotions emitted from somebody who you can kind of see the emotion coming.

我认为情感体验与你可以看到情感到来的人所发出的情感体验截然不同。

It's like a slow swell.

就像缓慢的膨胀。

It's like an expansion and then a contraction again that you have time.

这就像一次扩张，然后再次收缩，你就有时间了。

And I feel like I keep coming back to this theme of time perception.

我觉得我不断回到时间感知这个主题。

But anytime we have time, or we hear about in all the Buddhist traditions, like space.

But anytime we have time, or we hear about in all the Buddhist traditions, like space.

Like you're trying to create mental space, and this gap between stimulus and response.

就像你试图创造心理空间，以及刺激和反应之间的差距。

It all sounds great, but with some people, you have to really be on your toes.

这一切听起来不错，但对于某些人来说，你必须真正保持警惕。

Or perhaps you disengage.

或者也许你会脱离。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And so I've never heard a satisfying answer to this, probably because I've never asked it out loud.

所以我从来没有听到过对此满意的答案，可能是因为我从来没有大声问过。

If you're a kid or if you're a parent, and somebody is experiencing something-

If you're a kid or if you're a parent, and somebody is experiencing something-

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

let's say they're really angry or really happy, you can imagine riding that wave in with them.

假设他们真的很生气或真的很高兴，你可以想象与他们一起乘风破浪。

You could also imagine sitting back from it, and some of this is probably what we'd call temperament.

你也可以想象远离它，其中一些可能就是我们所说的气质。

But maybe you could talk about this a little bit in the context of having one or both parents as kind of high-frequency shifts between emotions versus kind of a slow expansion and then settling of emotions.

但也许你可以在拥有一方或双方父母的背景下谈论这一点，即情绪之间的高频转变与情绪的缓慢扩张和稳定。

Because I feel like those are two completely different experiences of life.

Because I feel like those are two completely different experiences of life.

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Yeah.

是的。

I think you're speaking to how differently we feel emotions.

我认为你说的是​​我们对情绪的感受有多么不同。

I think about one of my kids who I call a deeply feeling kid, right?

我想起我的一个孩子，我称他为“感情丰富的孩子”，对吗？

So my image is always she's just more porous to the world.

So my image is always she's just more porous to the world.

And so if you think about someone who's more porous, that their pores are literally wider, a lot more is going to come in.

因此，如果你想到一个人的毛孔更多，他们的毛孔实际上更宽，那么就会有更多的东西进入。

And guess what?

你猜怎么着？

A lot more is going to come out, right?

还会有更多的东西出现，对吗？

And she's a kid who, by the way, you're in a certain area in New York City, she's like, "I can't be here, the smell." For me, I'm wired differently.

And she's a kid who, by the way, you're in a certain area in New York City, she's like, "I can't be here, the smell."对我来说，我的接线方式有所不同。

I was like, "I literally don't smell anything different." Now, does that mean she's wrong?

我当时想，“我真的没有闻到任何不同的味道。”现在，这是否意味着她错了？

No. I actually bet, knowing her, she smells things, and then she lets me know how awful it is, and she can't stand on that corner.

No. I actually bet, knowing her, she smells things, and then she lets me know how awful it is, and she can't stand on that corner.

And for me, in that moment at least, because we're probably all volatile in different ways, I look steady as a rock, right?

And for me, in that moment at least, because we're probably all volatile in different ways, I look steady as a rock, right?

I have another kid who, yeah, is pretty steady, until he feels like his authority and power is threatened, and then you better watch out.

I have another kid who, yeah, is pretty steady, until he feels like his authority and power is threatened, and then you better watch out.

And so in one moment, someone might see him as, oh, wow, that kid's really volatile.

所以在一瞬间，有人可能会认为他，哦，哇，那孩子真是反复无常。

But in probably 90% of other moments, he's kind of cool as a cucumber.

But in probably 90% of other moments, he's kind of cool as a cucumber.

So, I also think it's important to categorize kids not as always one way or another, but we all feel emotions differently.

So, I also think it's important to categorize kids not as always one way or another, but we all feel emotions differently.

None of them is wrong or right.

他们都没有错或对。

To me, the goal is to not be locked into any one thing.

对我来说，目标是不被任何一件事束缚。

That, to me, rigidity is always the enemy.

对我来说，僵化永远是敌人。

That's what holds us back in adulthood if we're always one way.

如果我们总是采用一种方式，这就是阻碍我们成年的原因。

"I can never handle someone cutting me off in traffic because the emotion takes me over, and I have road rage." Yeah, that's not good.

“我永远无法应付有人在交通中挡住我的路，因为我的情绪控制了我，而且我有路怒症。”是的，那不好。

That's a very rigid, limited way of living life.

这是一种非常僵化、有限的生活方式。

But it's probably also limiting to say, "I've never really gotten riled up about anything." Forget road rage, but it's kind of amazing to get riled up once in a while and to feel really passionately about something and to feel something enough that you want to go do something about it, right?

但说“我从来没有真正对任何事情生气过”也可能是有限的。忘掉路怒症吧，但偶尔被激怒，对某件事充满热情，感觉到某件事足以让你想要去做点什么，这真是太神奇了，对吧？

So, there's no morality on it.

所以说，这根本就没有什么道德可言。

I think what's tricky, I can even say as a parent of three kids, is each of my kids, I always kind of imagine this, if I have all these different parts of me, they each need a different part of me to kind of lead.

我认为棘手的是，我什至可以说，作为三个孩子的父母，是我的每个孩子，我总是想象这一点，如果我有我所有这些不同的部分，他们每个人都需要我的不同部分来领导。

They almost need different lead parents, right?

他们几乎需要不同的主要父母，对吗？

So, my kid who is my deeply feeling kid, I know What's so important is that I believe her experience, and I better be ready with certain boundaries because she feels things so intensely.

所以，我的孩子，我的感受很深的孩子，我知道最重要的是我相信她的经历，我最好做好一定的界限准备，因为她对事情的感受如此强烈。

Especially when she was younger, I have to step in more often.

Especially when she was younger, I have to step in more often.

There's more difficult behavior.

还有更困难的行为。

My kid who's really, really steady, I try to sometimes, even though it's convenient because he's so easy, there's definitely a lot going on in there.

我的孩子真的非常非常稳定，有时我会尝试这样做，尽管这很方便，因为他很容易，但里面肯定有很多事情发生。

And sometimes I wonder, does he almost feel like all the emotional space is taken up by his siblings, and the only thing left for him is kind of steady as a rock?

有时我会想，他是不是感觉所有的情感空间都被他的兄弟姐妹占据了，而他唯一剩下的就是坚如磐石？

And that can lead to a rigidity later in life.

这可能会导致日后生活僵化。

So, I think these are moving systems.

所以，我认为这些是移动系统。

So much of how we experience emotions growing up is also dictated by the system and the roles our siblings play.

我们在成长过程中经历的情绪在很大程度上也是由系统和我们的兄弟姐妹所扮演的角色决定的。

So I don't know if that gives you enough of an answer.

所以我不知道这是否给你足够的答案。

But I think-

但我认为——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

No, that's informative.

不，这很有信息性。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Yeah.

是的。

I think the thing I'd really want parents to know is, I think we place a lot of morality on it, and if we're honest with ourselves, we're probably just comparing our kid to how we do things.

我认为我真正想让父母知道的是，我认为我们在这方面投入了很多道德，如果我们对自己诚实，我们可能只是将我们的孩子与我们做事的方式进行比较。

So, if you're someone who's pretty steady, you're like, "My kid is crazy.

所以，如果你是一个非常稳定的人，你会说，“我的孩子疯了。

They're dramatic." If you're someone who's a little more out there, you're not as bothered by that kid.

他们很戏剧化。”如果你是一个比较外向的人，你就不会被那个孩子打扰。

And then you have another kid, you're like, "That kid's boring," because they're so flat.

然后你有了另一个孩子，你会说，“那个孩子很无聊”，因为他们太平淡了。

And so, I think this is true in couples, too.

所以，我认为这对于夫妻来说也是如此。

Whenever we're fighting, we're probably just saying, "Why can't you be more like me?" When we're triggered by our kid, we're like, "Why can't you be more like me?" That's probably what we're always saying to each other, going back to communication.

每当我们吵架时，我们可能只是说：“你为什么不能更像我一点呢？”当我们被孩子触发时，我们会想，“为什么你不能更像我呢？”这可能就是我们经常对彼此说的话，回到沟通上来。

But if you take a little different perspective of, "Hold on a second.

但如果你有一点不同的看法，“等一下。

There's no wrong or right way to feel emotions." Some behaviors are not allowed, but all the emotions have information, and what might my kid need right now?

感受情绪的方式没有错误或正确之分。”有些行为是不允许的，但所有的情绪都有信息，我的孩子现在可能需要什么？

Instead of, "Oh my goodness, is my kid messed up?" Or, "Why is my kid not just a little bit more like me?"

而不是“天啊，我的孩子是不是搞砸了？”或者，“为什么我的孩子不像我一点点？”

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

How useful is it to talk to kids about emotions when they're not happening?

当孩子没有发生情绪时，与他们谈论这些情绪有多有用？

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

To me, this is something I always just say, I always phrase it as emotion talk.

对我来说，这就是我总是说的话，我总是将其表述为情感谈话。

Just knowing that emotions live within you, knowing that there's names for them, that they're normal, that they make sense.

只要知道情绪存在于你的内心，知道它们有名字，它们是正常的，它们是有道理的。

To me, it's like the ultimate leg up in life.

对我来说，这就像人生中的终极胜利。

It gives your kids such resilience because we can't beat our emotions.

它给了你的孩子如此强大的韧性，因为我们无法战胜自己的情绪。

I feel like we've been trying that for generations.

我觉得我们几代人都在尝试这样做。

Like, "If I just only didn't feel so angry or so jealous or so sad." Our emotions are so primal in our body, and I really do believe emotions, they're information.

就像，“如果我不那么生气、那么嫉妒或者那么悲伤就好了。”我们的情绪在我们的身体中是如此原始，我真的相信情绪，它们是信息。

That's what they are.

他们就是这样。

Why would we ever want to not get the information our body is giving us?

为什么我们不想获取身体提供给我们的信息？

And sometimes it's almost dramatic what happens in an amazing way.

有时，事情会以令人惊奇的方式发生，几乎是戏剧性的。

So many people, I think about so many times I have people in a room for therapy, they start crying.

很多人，我想到很多次我让人们在一个房间里接受治疗，他们开始哭泣。

"I'm so sorry." You're feeling something so intensely that your body is producing water from your eyes to get your attention.

“我很抱歉。”您的感觉如此强烈，以至于您的身体会从眼睛中分泌出水来引起您的注意。

That must be really important information.

这一定是非常重要的信息。

Why are we saying sorry?

我们为什么要说对不起？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And as far as we know, a uniquely human thing.

据我们所知，这是人类独有的事情。

I could be wrong about this, but a colleague of mine at Stanford and psychiatrist, Carl Diseroff, talked about this, that humans are the only species that we are aware of that sheds tears for sake of emotion.

我的观点可能是错的，但我在斯坦福大学的一位同事、精神病学家卡尔·迪瑟罗夫（Carl Diseroff）谈到了这一点，人类是我们所知道的唯一会因情感而流泪的物种。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Other animals, they have lacrimal glands.

其他动物也有泪腺。

They produce water, so to speak.

可以这么说，它们生产水。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Salty water that comes out of their eye region, but not as it relates to emotions.

咸水从眼睛区域流出，但与情绪无关。

At least we don't think so.

至少我们不这么认为。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

So, that's a great example.

所以，这是一个很好的例子。

I even think about a conversation I have had with my kids, and I like to just have these moments here and there.

我什至会想起我和孩子们的一次谈话，我喜欢到处都有这些时刻。

Whenever I talk about good conversations with my kids, I think people think I have these 45-minute, no. They're usually 10 seconds.

每当我谈论与孩子们的良好对话时，我想人们都会认为我有这 45 分钟的时间，但事实并非如此。它们通常是 10 秒。

I say one thing.

我说一件事。

My kids say, "Can I have a snack now?" And I think that's a great conversation because I know it gets in there.

我的孩子们说：“我现在可以吃点零食吗？”我认为这是一次很棒的对话，因为我知道它会在那里。

"Do you know that tears have really important information for us?" My kid will be like, "What?

“你知道眼泪对我们来说有非常重要的信息吗？”我的孩子会说：“什么？

What did you say?" "I'm just thinking, so many people think tears are bad.

你说什么？” “我只是在想，很多人都认为眼泪不好。

Tears are kind of amazing.

眼泪真是太奇妙了。

It's like our body is trying to stop us, and it's asking us to pay attention to something really powerful.

就好像我们的身体试图阻止我们，它要求我们关注一些真正强大的东西。

I just think it's kind of an amazing thing our body does." Then my kid goes, "Can I have pretzels?" "Oh, sure.

我只是认为我们的身体所做的这是一件令人惊奇的事情。”然后我的孩子问：“我可以吃椒盐卷饼吗？” “哦，当然。

I'll get you pretzels." That, to me, is a win.

我去给你买椒盐卷饼。”对我来说，这是一场胜利。

I just want to tell everyone-

我只想告诉大家——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I love it

我喜欢它

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

...

...

that is a 10 out of 10.

十分之十。

I'm bragging to people about that.

我正在向人们吹嘘这一点。

I'm like-

我就像-

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I love it

我喜欢它

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

...

...

"I had the best conversation." Because I know this is seeping in.

“我进行了最好的谈话。”因为我知道这正在渗透进来。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Because in the moment my kid is crying, you think it's going to be helpful when my seven-year-old is crying, "Tears are amazing." They're like, "F you, Mom."

因为在我的孩子哭泣的那一刻，你认为当我七岁的孩子哭泣时，“眼泪是惊人的”会有帮助。他们就像是，“妈的，妈妈。”

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Totally.

完全可以。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

No one wants to hear that.

没有人想听这个。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

My reflex would be to tell them the biology of tears.

我的本能反应就是告诉他们眼泪的生物学原理。

Noam Sobel, who was on the podcast, told us that tears contain hormones that signal to other people, pheromones, excuse me-

播客中的诺姆·索贝尔告诉我们，眼泪中含有向他人发出信号的荷尔蒙，信息素，对不起——

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Yes

是的

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

that literally change the biology of the people around you.

这确实改变了你周围人的生物学。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

That's right.

没错。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

We can actually smell tears.

我们实际上可以闻到眼泪的味道。

We don't realize we're doing it.

我们没有意识到我们正在这样做。

See, here I go.

看，我来了。

So I realize-

所以我意识到——

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Right

右

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

I've spent enough time with kids that if you tell them that, they're like, "Whatever."

我和孩子们待了足够多的时间，如果你告诉他们这些，他们会说，“随便吧。”

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

But you know when that's a great conversation?

但你知道什么时候这是一次很棒的谈话吗？

Around the dinner table.

餐桌周围。

And again, your kids will roll their eyes.

再一次，你的孩子会翻白眼。

Kids roll their eyes about everything.

孩子们对一切都翻白眼。

I always think rolling their eyes or "Stop" is kind of a kid's way of saying, "There's a lot coming at me.

我一直认为翻白眼或“停下来”是孩子们的一种表达方式，“有很多事情向我袭来。

I'm my own person.

我是我自己的人。

I just need to push it away a little so that on my own time and under my own control, I can take it in." And we take eye rolls or whatever it is so personally that then we end up getting into a power struggle.

我只需要把它推开一点，这样我就可以在自己的时间和自己的控制下接受它。”我们会翻白眼或其他任何个人的事情，最终我们会陷入权力斗争。

"Why are you rolling my eyes?" And we miss this opportunity.

“你为什么要翻白眼？”我们错过了这个机会。

If we just say nothing then, our kid is going to take in what we just said.

如果我们什么也不说，我们的孩子就会接受我们刚才所说的话。

Just walk away.

走开吧。

Let the whole process happen.

让整个过程发生。

It's kind of like if your boss comes in and says something like, "Oh, look, that project really wasn't as good as it could've been, and I really need these things done." And you're like, "Oh." And then imagine, "You're rolling your eyes at me." If your boss just leaves the room, you probably think, "Oh.

就好像你的老板进来并说：“哦，看，那个项目真的没有达到预期的那么好，我真的需要完成这些事情。”你会说，“哦。”然后想象一下，“你对我翻白眼。”如果你的老板刚刚离开房间，你可能会想：“哦。

I didn't do that as well as I could.

我没有尽我所能做到这一点。

I'm going to go work on it." So, I feel like not taking the bait-

我要去处理这件事。”所以，我不想上钩——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

...

...

is a very important parenting tool.

是一个非常重要的育儿工具。

But I think those moments with our kids to talk about emotions and to talk about our own, especially when it comes to struggle.

但我认为那些与我们的孩子一起谈论情感和我们自己的时刻，尤其是当涉及到斗争时。

One of the things I think a lot about, I try to be intentional with my kids, especially when they were younger.

我经常思考的一件事是，我尝试有意识地对待我的孩子，尤其是当他们还小的时候。

I just think Kids are flooded by their parents' capability, and it is so hard to learn in environments where someone's capability is so far beyond your own.

我只是认为孩子们被父母的能力淹没了，在别人的能力远远超出你自己的环境中学习是非常困难的。

I'm not a good cook, but if I was really learning to cook, I would want to learn from someone.

我不是一个好厨师，但如果我真的学做饭，我会想向别人学习。

From here or there, burned some garlic or messed up the broccoli, and then it was like, "Okay, well, I guess I could do this next time." I'd be like, "Okay." But if I'm learning to cook from someone who is whatever celebrity chef, I'm like, that person's way too far from me, and I almost feel shame.

从这里或那里，烧掉一些大蒜或弄乱西兰花，然后就像是，“好吧，好吧，我想下次我可以这样做。”我会说：“好吧。”但如果我向某个名人厨师学习烹饪，我会想，那个人离我太远了，我几乎感到羞耻。

So I think about this with our kids and how this relates to emotions, where when your kids are younger, especially if you just think about the first 10 minutes of their day, they're trying to figure out maybe how to brush their teeth, how to go to the bathroom, how to turn on the sink, how to wash their hands.

所以我和我们的孩子一起思考这个问题，以及这与情绪的关系，当你的孩子还小的时候，特别是如果你只考虑他们一天的前 10 分钟，他们可能会试图弄清楚如何刷牙、如何去卫生间、如何打开水槽、如何洗手。

They always put their shirt on the wrong way.

他们总是把衬衫穿错。

They can't get on their socks.

他们无法穿上袜子。

There's so many things, and you come out, dressed perfectly, and then they're like, "I can't get on my socks," and you go like this, "Okay.

有很多事情，你出来时，穿着完美，然后他们会说，“我穿不上袜子，”然后你就这样说，“好吧。

One, two." And kind of in those moments, I always think that I'm just kind of saying to my kid, "I can do everything easily." And they don't know our history.

一，二。”在那些时刻，我总是认为我只是对我的孩子说，“我可以轻松完成所有事情。”他们不知道我们的历史。

They don't know we struggled to put on socks for five years, too.

他们不知道我们也花了五年的时间才穿上袜子。

I put on my shirt backward until college.

直到大学我才把衬衫反着穿。

They don't know that.

他们不知道这一点。

And so I think, again, in these calm moments, you have this opportunity to say something like, "Oh, I cannot finish this crossword puzzle." Or like, I love "New York Times" games, right?

所以我想，在这些平静的时刻，你有机会说这样的话，“哦，我无法完成这个填字游戏。”或者说，我喜欢《纽约时报》的游戏，对吧？

And it's so fun with my kids now that they're older.

现在我的孩子们长大了，这对他们来说非常有趣。

But my connections was really hard today.

但今天我的联系真的很困难。

I really struggled with it, and then I was like, "Oh, I can't do it.

我真的很挣扎，然后我想，“哦，我做不到。

I can't do it." And then I took a deep breath, and I tried it a little more, and maybe I said, "And I did it," or I didn't do it.

我做不到。”然后我深吸了一口气，又尝试了一点，也许我说，“我做到了”，或者我没有这样做。

Whatever it is.

不管是什么。

And it gives my kid, first of all, it gives my kid an opportunity to just notice that I struggle, too.

首先，它让我的孩子有机会注意到我也在挣扎。

It gives my kid, again, kind of an arc and a story of, oh, someone I admire so much, every kid admires their parents.

它再次给我的孩子提供了一种弧线和故事，哦，我非常钦佩的人，每个孩子都钦佩他们的父母。

They've had hard times.

他们度过了一段艰难的时光。

They still have hard times.

他们的日子仍然很艰难。

They work through things.

他们通过事情来工作。

They burn garlic.

他们烧大蒜。

They can kind of talk themselves through it.

他们可以通过它自己进行交谈。

That is such a more powerful kind of lesson in emotion regulation than teaching your kid kind of directly.

这是一种比直接教你的孩子更有效的情绪调节课程。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

It also seems that here we're not defining the age of the kids, but if one presents themselves as perfect or close to it in any kind of relationship, work, romantic, parenting, et cetera, sooner or later, you're going to fall from grace because they're either going to be looking for the mistake, or the moment you make a mistake, it's going to be this fracture in the picture that people had of you.

似乎我们在这里并没有定义孩子的年龄，但如果一个人在任何一种关系、工作、浪漫、养育子女等方面表现得完美或接近完美，那么你迟早会失宠，因为他们要么会寻找错误，要么一旦你犯了错误，人们对你的印象就会出现裂痕。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And I have to say, and I think some people might get irritated or even, dare I say, triggered by the language I'm about to use, but I feel like the real ninja move in all of this is to acknowledge that there are power dynamics between parent and child-

我不得不说，我认为有些人可能会感到恼火，甚至我敢说，会被我即将使用的语言所触发，但我觉得所有这一切中真正的忍者举动是承认父母和孩子之间存在权力动态 -

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Mm

毫米

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

but then to try and dissolve the power dynamics.

但随后要尝试消除权力动态。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Mm.

嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And I say this in the context of having run a lab for a long time, which is very different than raising small children.

我是在长期经营实验室的背景下说这句话的，这与抚养小孩有很大不同。

But you have people who are coming into your laboratory.

但是有人进入你的实验室。

If they're your graduate student or postdoc, they're staking their whole career on your ability to teach and mentor.

如果他们是你的研究生或博士后，他们会把自己的整个职业生涯都押在你的教学和指导能力上。

And a lot is at stake.

事关重大。

Nothing is for certain.

没有什么是确定的。

They might not get a job.

他们可能找不到工作。

The papers might not work out.

论文可能不会成功。

And so there's just so much tension around it.

所以周围的气氛非常紧张。

And so as a PI, as a principal investigator in our lab, I remember feeling that pressure of like, "It's got to work out." And one of the best things that ever happened to me as a graduate student was that my first paper took forever to get accepted.

因此，作为一名 PI，作为我们实验室的首席研究员，我记得感受到了类似的压力，“它必须成功。”作为一名研究生，发生在我身上的最好的事情之一就是我的第一篇论文花了很长时间才被接受。

And we almost got in, and then it didn't get in, and then finally it got in, such that every paper after that felt like a breeze because it took so damn long the first time.

我们差一点就进去了，然后没进去，最后终于进去了，这样之后的每一篇论文都感觉轻而易举，因为第一次花了这么长时间。

And I got to see that my advisor couldn't make magic happen.

我发现我的导师无法让奇迹发生。

And fortunately, that's the way-

幸运的是，就是这样——

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

the scientific process is supposed to work.

科学过程应该是有效的。

And I think about this in the context of parenting.

我在养育子女的背景下思考这个问题。

If you're seen as invincible, we hear about this.

如果你被认为是无敌的，我们就会听到这个消息。

People say, "I thought my dad was Superman.

人们说：“我以为我爸爸是超人。

I thought my mom was Superwoman." But you can imagine how disappointing it must be when they discover anything about a lack of capacity or a break-

我以为我妈妈是女超人。”但是你可以想象，当他们发现任何有关能力不足或断裂的事情时，会有多令人失望——

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

in emotional stability, et cetera.

比如情绪的稳定性等等。

So how does one present themselves as both-

那么一个人如何将自己呈现为两者——

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

powerful in the positive sense of the word?

强大这个词的积极意义？

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Such a thorny word, but powerful in the positive sense of the word, but human and vulnerable to making mistakes-

这是一个如此棘手的词，但其积极意义却很强大，但人性化且容易犯错误——

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

in a way that you don't give up the essential, let's just call it what it is-

以一种不放弃本质的方式，我们就这么称呼它吧——

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

a power dynamic with your kids so that the kid then doesn't feel they have to parent you.

与你的孩子建立一种权力动态，这样孩子就不会觉得他们必须养育你。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

I love this topic because it's so interesting.

我喜欢这个话题，因为它很有趣。

Right now it's kind of review season at Good Inside because I also am the CEO of a company.

现在是 Good Inside 的回顾季，因为我也是一家公司的首席执行官。

And to me, the things I talk about with parenting and my kids, and for other people parenting their kids, they are the exact same principles, exact, as leading a team.

对我来说，我与养育孩子和我的孩子以及其他养育孩子的人谈论的事情，它们与领导一个团队是完全相同的原则。

And so when I think about review season and the way we get feedback and back and forth, it brings this all together, and I'll explain.

因此，当我想到审核季以及我们反复获得反馈的方式时，它会将所有这些结合在一起，我将对此进行解释。

So the other day, I said to my kids, I love resolutions.

所以有一天，我对我的孩子们说，我喜欢决心。

I actually do love resolutions, right?

我其实很喜欢决心，对吧？

Because I love just the opportunity to say, what is one small thing I value and I'm going to hold myself accountable to do?

因为我喜欢有机会说，我重视并且我要让自己负责的一件小事是什么？

What I said to my kids was, "I want you to come up with one thing, just one thing for now, and it has to be something manageable and real that I could do that would really make me a better mom to you."

我对我的孩子们说的是，“我希望你们能想出一件事，现在只是一件事，而且必须是我能做到的、可以管理的、真实的事情，这样我才能真正让我成为你们更好的妈妈。”

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You asked your kids this?

你问过你的孩子这个吗？

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

I asked my kids this.

我问我的孩子们这个。

I actually ask my kids this relatively frequently.

事实上，我经常问我的孩子这个问题。

It's like a review, right?

这就像一篇评论，对吧？

Because it's something I do at work all the time.

因为这是我在工作中一直在做的事情。

And what I say at work is, because often my direct reports say nothing, and I said, "I just want to tell you something.

我在工作中所说的是，因为我的直接下属通常什么也不说，我说：“我只是想告诉你一些事情。

I need one thing from you by the end of the day.

今天结束之前我需要你做一件事。

I need it because I know I can get hot.

我需要它，因为我知道我会变得很热。

I know I can get a little reactive, right?

我知道我可能会有点反应，对吧？

I know I'm always go, go, go, and there probably is a moment that I need to pause.

我知道我总是不停地走、走、走，可能有那么一刻我需要暂停。

I know.

我知道。

I know I have a lot of issues.

我知道我有很多问题。

So if you don't tell me one thing, I don't trust you as much." So here's what happened with my kids.

所以如果你不告诉我一件事，我就不会那么信任你。”这就是我的孩子们发生的事情。

At that point, it was only two of them.

那时，只有他们两个人。

It just happened the other day.

前几天刚刚发生过。

My son says, my seven-year-old son Sometimes when you're trying to get some work done at home, and I want to get your attention for something, this is what you do, Mom.

我儿子说，我七岁的儿子有时，当你试图在家完成一些工作时，我想引起你的注意，这就是你所做的，妈妈。

One minute, one minute, one minute, and then you still don't give me your full attention."

一分钟，一分钟，一分钟，然后你仍然没有全神贯注于我。”

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

He's clocking.

他正在打卡。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

"I'd rather you tell me five minutes, and then give me your full attention." That's literally what he said.

“我宁愿你告诉我五分钟，然后全神贯注。”他确实是这么说的。

I was just like, "That is a really good suggestion, and I really needed to hear that.

我当时想，“这是一个非常好的建议，我真的需要听到这个建议。

I can do that." This is a couple of days ago.

我能做到。”这是几天前的事了。

Okay, I have to admit, two days ago, he was trying to show me something, and he just goes, "You're doing it.

好吧，我不得不承认，两天前，他试图向我展示一些东西，他只是说：“你正在做。

You're not really giving me your attention." And I said, "You're right.

你并没有真正关注我。”我说：“你是对的。

Thank you.

谢谢你。

Change is hard.

改变是困难的。

I actually do need about two minutes.

我实际上确实需要大约两分钟。

Is that okay?

可以吗？

And then I'll put my computer down." Because I'll sometimes look at him and kind of look at, you know.

然后我就会放下我的电脑。”因为我有时会看着他，你知道。

And he goes, "Okay." It was so beautiful.

他说：“好吧。”真是太美了。

My daughter said, at night, she goes-- It's so interesting when you give people this opportunity, how generous they can be with you.

我女儿说，晚上，她说——当你给人们这个机会时，他们会对你多么慷慨，真是太有趣了。

I think it's been true at work and home.

我认为在工作和家庭中都是如此。

My daughter goes, "I know when it's my bedtime at night, I always want to do one or two extra things." I know.

我女儿说：“我知道晚上睡觉的时候，我总是想做一两件事。”我知道。

"I always have to get my water.

“我总是得去取水。

Mom, it's just how I am." That's what she said.

妈妈，我就是这样的。”她就是这么说的。

"And you get this rushing voice, and you go, 'Come on, it's bedtime,' and that's like the last voice I hear before bed, and I really don't like that voice.

“然后你听到这种急促的声音，然后你说，‘来吧，该睡觉了，’这就像我睡前听到的最后一个声音，我真的不喜欢那个声音。

And so can you just know that I always need to do those one or two extra things and not use that voice?" And again, I said, "You know what?

那么你能知道我总是需要做一两件额外的事情而不是使用那个声音吗？”我再次说道：“你知道吗？

I wouldn't want to hear that as the last voice." And I think at night especially as a little digression, I always feel like I'm in a rush.

我不想听到那是最后的声音。”我觉得在晚上，特别是作为一个小题外话，我总是觉得自己很匆忙。

I don't know, an extra two minutes with my kids, like my kids are getting older.

我不知道，多和我的孩子们待两分钟，就像我的孩子们长大了一样。

They're not even in my house for that much longer.

他们在我家里呆的时间也不长了。

I just have to remind myself, like, I'm not in a rush.

我只需要提醒自己，我并不着急。

This is the best use of my time.

这是我对时间的最好利用。

And so I said, and that one I've been really good at.

我就是这么说的，而且我一直很擅长这一点。

And so how do we show our kids that we're fallible?

那么我们如何向孩子们表明我们容易犯错呢？

One way is actually asking for feedback, especially when you have older kids.

一种方法实际上是寻求反馈，尤其是当你有年龄较大的孩子时。

When you have a teenager, this is the number one thing that can change things around.

当你有一个十几岁的孩子时，这是可以改变一切的第一件事。

You know what I'm thinking about?

你知道我在想什么吗？

It's hard to be a teen, and I'm definitely not a perfect parent of a teen.

作为一个青少年很难，我绝对不是一个完美的青少年父母。

I'm sure you have a long list, but for right now, can you name one thing that I could do that would make me a better parent to you?

我相信你有一个很长的清单，但现在，你能说出我可以做的一件事，让我成为你更好的父母吗？

And I want to follow this through, because what a lot of teens will do, or parents will say, my teenager tells me something ridiculous.

我想坚持到底，因为很多青少年会做的事情，或者父母会说的事情，我的孩子告诉了我一些荒谬的事情。

They'll say, "Well, you know how you make me charge my phone at 9:00 or 10:00 PM out of the room?

他们会说：“好吧，你知道你是如何让我在晚上 9:00 或 10:00 离开房间给手机充电的吗？

You could let me sleep with my phone." Which maybe as a parent you're like, "I'm just not going to do that." Or they'll say, "You know what you could do?

你可以让我带着手机睡觉。”作为父母，你可能会想：“我只是不会那样做。”或者他们会说：“你知道你能做什么吗？

You could give me $1,000 every week for an allowance," right?

你可以每周给我 1000 美元的津贴，”对吧？

And so parents will say, "My kid doesn't take it seriously." This is where, to me, one of the most important life skills, parenting, management, friendships, it doesn't matter, is differentiating someone's words on the surface from their needs, or their feelings, or their fears, whatever it is underneath.

所以父母会说：“我的孩子不认真对待这件事。”对我来说，最重要的生活技能之一，养育子女、管理、友谊，这并不重要，就是区分某人表面上的言语与他们的需求、感受或恐惧，无论其内在是什么。

And not responding to the words, but kind of cutting under them.

并没有回应这些话，而是有点削弱它们。

Let's even say my kid said the phone thing.

甚至假设我的孩子说了电话的事情。

What would be so great about having your phone?

拥有你的手机有什么好处呢？

Just help me understand it.

请帮助我理解它。

I know in my head I'm never going to do it, but we don't realize just because we're not going to do something someone asks, it doesn't mean we don't owe that person the right to try to understand why they want it.

我知道在我的脑海里我永远不会这样做，但我们没有意识到，仅仅因为我们不会做某人要求的事情，并不意味着我们不欠那个人尝试理解他们为什么想要它的权利。

Right?

正确的？

So I might just ask questions.

所以我可能只是问问题。

It might probably end with, "Look, I actually hear what you're saying.

它可能会这样结束：“听着，我真的听到了你在说什么。

All of your friends are on Instagram until midnight.

您所有的朋友都在 Instagram 上直到午夜。

It sounds like you legitimately do miss out on conversations.

听起来你确实错过了谈话。

By the time you get to school, you feel out of them.

当你到了学校的时候，你就感觉自己已经脱离了他们。

I'm not even joking.

我什至不是在开玩笑。

I feel like if I was your age, I'd feel like that's basically the worst thing ever.

我觉得如果我在你这个年纪，我会觉得这基本上是有史以来最糟糕的事情。

I believe you.

我相信你。

Having your phone after X time, it's just one of my non-negotiables.

X次之后才拿到你的手机，这只是我不可协商的事情之一。

It's actually just because I love you so much that I feel like my job is to protect you.

其实只是因为我太爱你了，所以我觉得我的工作就是保护你。

I wonder if there is some other way that we can figure that out." Or my kid says $1,000.

我想知道是否还有其他方法可以解决这个问题。”或者我的孩子说 1,000 美元。

I might say, "What would you do with $1,000?

我可能会说：“你会用 1000 美元做什么？

Oh, you'd go-- Oh, you want to go to more concerts?

哦，你会去——哦，你想去看更多音乐会吗？

Oh, your friends all get more allowance." Tell me more.

哦，你的朋友们都得到更多的津贴了。”告诉我更多。

No matter what your kid says to you, there's information.

无论您的孩子对您说什么，都会有信息。

So I think feedback is one.

所以我认为反馈就是其中之一。

I think repair is another way.

我认为修复是另一种方式。

Repair is the most important relationship strategy to get good at, and I just hope everyone hears the duality in that and realizes what that means.

修复是最重要的关系策略，我只是希望每个人都能听到其中的二元性并意识到这意味着什么。

Because if you're going to get good at repair, you have to mess up.

因为如果你想擅长修复，你就必须把事情搞砸。

The only way to repair is to mess up.

唯一的修复方法就是搞砸。

And so if I'm telling you get good at repair, I am telling you, you have to accomplish step one, which is yelling at your kid.

因此，如果我告诉你要善于修复，我是在告诉你，你必须完成第一步，那就是对你的孩子大喊大叫。

You have to.

你必须这样做。

And you're going to do it anyway.

无论如何你都会这么做。

I do it.

我做。

But if you then tell yourself, "Wait, I'm getting good at repair.

但如果你然后告诉自己，“等等，我越来越擅长修理了。

Step one is messing up.

第一步就是搞砸。

I crushed it.

我把它压碎了。

Amazing.

太棒了。

I'm half the way there." Then when you repair, which is when you take ownership, "Hey, I'm sorry I yelled." Just like you, I'm managing my emotions.

我已经走了一半了。”然后当你修理时，也就是当你获得所有权时，“嘿，对不起，我大喊大叫了。”和你一样，我也在控制自己的情绪。

Emotions are really tricky.

感情真的很微妙。

Emotions are really hard, and do you know what?

感情真的很艰难，你知道吗？

Even though you're going to have a leg up on this compared to most people when they're adults because you're learning how to regulate emotions, you're still going to be practicing that when you're my age.

尽管与大多数成年后的人相比，你会在这方面占据优势，因为你正在学习如何调节情绪，但当你到了我这个年纪时，你仍然需要练习这一点。

That is my responsibility to work on.

这是我的责任。

It's not your fault, and I love you.

这不是你的错，我爱你。

So powerful.

太强大了。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, AG1.

我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商 AG1。

AG1 is a vitamin mineral probiotic drink that also includes prebiotics and adaptogens.

AG1 是一种维生素矿物质益生菌饮料，还包含益生元和适应原。

AG1 is designed to cover all of your foundational nutritional needs, and it tastes great.

AG1 旨在满足您所有的基本营养需求，而且味道极佳。

Now, I've been drinking AG1 since 2012, and I started doing that at a time when my budget for supplements was really limited.

现在，我从 2012 年开始饮用 AG1，当时我的补充剂预算非常有限。

In fact, I only had enough money back then to purchase one supplement, and I'm so glad that I made that supplement AG1.

事实上，当时我的钱只够购买一种补充剂，我很高兴我制作了这款补充剂 AG1。

The reason for that is even though I strive to eat most of my foods from whole foods and minimally processed foods, it's very difficult for me to get enough fruits, vegetables, vitamins and minerals, micronutrients, and adaptogens from food alone.

原因是，尽管我努力吃天然食品和最低限度加工食品中的大部分食物，但我很难仅从食物中获取足够的水果、蔬菜、维生素和矿物质、微量营养素和适应原。

And I need to do that in order to ensure that I have enough energy throughout the day, I sleep well at night, and keep my immune system strong.

我需要这样做，以确保我全天有足够的能量，晚上睡得好，并保持我的免疫系统强大。

But when I take AG1 daily, I find that all aspects of my health, my physical health, my mental health, and my performance, both cognitive and physical, are better.

但是当我每天服用 AG1 时，我发现我的健康各方面，我的身体健康，我的心理健康，以及我的认知和身体表现都更好了。

I know that because I've had lapses when I didn't take AG1, and I certainly felt the difference.

我知道这一点，因为我在不参加 AG1 的时候也曾犯过错误，而且我确实感受到了其中的不同。

I also notice, and this makes perfect sense given the relationship between the gut microbiome and the brain, that when I regularly take AG1, which for me means a serving in the morning or mid-morning and again later in the afternoon or evening, that I have more mental clarity and more mental energy.

我还注意到，考虑到肠道微生物组和大脑之间的关系，这是完全合理的，当我定期服用 AG1（对我来说意味着早上或上午服用一次，下午或晚上再次服用）时，我的思维更加清晰，精力更加充沛。

If you'd like to try AG1, you can go to drinkag1.com/huberman to claim a special offer.

如果您想尝试 AG1，可以访问 Drinkag1.com/huberman 申请特别优惠。

For this month only, January 2025, AG1 is giving away 10 free travel packs and a year's supply of vitamin D3 K2.

仅在 2025 年 1 月这个月，AG1 赠送 10 个免费旅行包和一年的维生素 D3 K2。

Again, go to drinkag1.com/huberman To claim the 10 free travel packs and a year's supply of vitamin D3+K2.

再次访问 Drinkag1.com/huberman 领取 10 个免费旅行包和一年的维生素 D3+K2。

Today's episode is also brought to us by Joovv.

今天的节目也是Joovv给我们带来的。

Joovv makes medical-grade red light therapy devices.

Joovv 生产医疗级红光治疗设备。

Now, if there's one thing that I have consistently emphasized on this podcast, it's the incredible impact that light can have on our biology.

现在，如果我在这个播客中一直强调一件事，那就是光对我们的生物学产生的令人难以置信的影响。

Now, in addition to sunlight, red light and near-infrared light have been shown to have positive effects on improving numerous aspects of cellular and organ health, including faster muscle recovery, improved skin health and wound healing, improvements in acne, meaning reductions in acne, reduced pain and inflammation, improved mitochondrial function, and even improving visual function itself.

现在，除了阳光之外，红光和近红外光已被证明对改善细胞和器官健康的许多方面具有积极作用，包括更快的肌肉恢复、改善皮肤健康和伤口愈合、改善痤疮，这意味着减少痤疮、减轻疼痛和炎症、改善线粒体功能，甚至改善视觉功能本身。

What sets Joovv lights apart and why they're my preferred red light therapy device is that they use clinically proven wavelengths, meaning specific wavelengths of red light and near-infrared light in specific combinations to trigger the optimal cellular adaptations.

Joovv 灯的与众不同之处以及它们成为我首选红光治疗设备的原因在于它们使用经过临床验证的波长，这意味着特定波长的红光和近红外光以特定的组合来触发最佳的细胞适应。

Personally, I use the Joovv whole body panel about three to four times per week, typically in the morning, but sometimes in the afternoon.

就我个人而言，我每周使用 Joovv 全身面板大约三到四次，通常在早上，但有时在下午。

And I use the Joovv handheld light both at home and when I travel.

我在家和旅行时都使用 Joovv 手持灯。

If you'd like to try Joovv, you can go to Joovv, spelled J-O-O-V-V, .com/huberman.

如果您想尝试 Joovv，可以访问 Joovv，拼写为 J-O-O-V-V，.com/huberman。

Joovv is offering an exclusive discount to all Huberman Lab listeners with up to $400 off select Joovv products.

Joovv 向所有 Huberman Lab 听众提供独家折扣，精选 Joovv 产品最高可享受 400 美元的折扣。

Again, that's Joovv, J-O-O-V-V, .com/huberman to get up to $400 off.

同样，Joovv、J-O-O-V-V、.com/huberman 可享受高达 400 美元的折扣。

I love this thing about asking for a request.

我喜欢提出请求这一点。

It's different than asking for feedback, which could quickly lead to a list of all the things that one does wrong as opposed to a request for how one could do better.

这与寻求反馈不同，后者可能很快就会列出一个人做错的所有事情的清单，而不是要求一个人如何做得更好。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So I think there's an important distinction there.

所以我认为这里有一个重要的区别。

And then it seems that the question that the parent, or who knows, the boss or whatever, maybe it's with a romantic partner, needs to ask themselves is, what is this request really about?

然后，似乎父母，或者谁知道，老板或其他什么人，也许是与一个浪漫的伴侣，需要问自己的问题是，这个要求到底是什么？

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

What's underneath it?

它下面是什么？

I'm just paraphrasing essentially-

我只是简单地解释一下——

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

what you said.

你说的话。

And what's it really about?

它到底是关于什么的？

Is it a request for more autonomy, for more social connection with other people?

这是对更多自主权、与他人更多社会联系的要求吗？

And then one starts to realize, certainly in this example that you gave of a child asking for more time with their phone late at night, is that it actually has nothing to do with your relationship to them.

然后人们开始意识到，当然在这个例子中，你让一个孩子在深夜要求更多时间使用手机，这实际上与你和他们的关系无关。

It's really about their relationship to their friends.

这实际上是关于他们与朋友的关系。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Could be.

可能是。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And the fact that they might feel as if they're missing out.

事实上，他们可能会觉得自己错过了。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And that leads me to another question, which is, what if you, as the parent, partner, boss, et cetera, keep your phone close to you until midnight, and they know that?

这引出了另一个问题，那就是，如果你作为父母、伴侣、老板等，直到午夜都把手机放在身边，而他们知道这一点，该怎么办？

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So one of the worst things that I believe anyone can say is, "Do as I say, not as I do." It's just such a blatantly arrogant stance of, "You're supposed to do what I say because I say so, but I'm not going to do it because I don't want to."

因此，我相信任何人都会说的最糟糕的话之一就是“照我说的做，而不是照我做的做”。这是一种明目张胆的傲慢态度，“你应该按照我说的做，因为我这么说，但我不会这样做，因为我不想这样做。”

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And yet there are times, like in parent-child relationships or boss-employee relationships, where you're telling somebody to do something, and you yourself are not going to do it, or no longer do it, or choose not to do it.

然而有时，比如在亲子关系或老板与员工关系中，你告诉某人做某事，而你自己不打算做，或者不再做，或者选择不做。

And in reality, you don't have to.

事实上，你不必这样做。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And maybe there's a good reason why you don't-

也许你有充分的理由不这样做——

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

or don't have to.

或者不必。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

That's why I use these words, power dynamics.

这就是为什么我使用“权力动态”这个词。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Power.

电源。

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Which everyone hears and goes, "Oh, boy.

每个人都听到并说：“哦，孩子。

Here we go." But it is an issue of power dynamics.

我们走吧。”但这是一个权力动态问题。

You have more power than the kid.

你比那孩子更有权力。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So what you're doing is you're giving the kid power to express where they want more agency.

所以你要做的就是赋予孩子表达他们想要更多代理权的权力。

I like the word-

我喜欢这个词——

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

maybe agency more than power.

也许代理比权力更重要。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Did you grant your son the right to use his phone later into the evening?

您是否授予您儿子在晚上晚些时候使用手机的权利？

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

My son had-

我儿子有——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Not to pry into your personal-

不窥探您的个人-

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

My son did not ask me that.

我儿子没有问我这个。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Oh, okay.

哦，好吧。

Sorry.

对不起。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

And he knows that our phone rules are non-negotiable.

他知道我们的电话规则是不容谈判的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Got it.

明白了。

No, I didn't mean to pry into your family dynamics, but-

不，我并不是有意窥探你的家庭动态，但是——

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

No, but that kid, if that's a rule, you would never give it to them.

不，但是那个孩子，如果这是规则的话，你绝对不会给他们的。

But I think so many times, and then we'll go back to power, we shouldn't be afraid to learn more.

但我多次想，当我们重新掌权时，我们不应该害怕了解更多。

I actually just think that's what it is.

我实际上只是认为就是这样。

Our kid says, "All my friends get this." That's not true.

我们的孩子说：“我所有的朋友都明白这个。”那不是真的。

Why don't you just learn more?

你为什么不多学点呢？

Oh, they do?

哦，他们这样做吗？

It's like learning more about what someone says doesn't mean you ever have to change your boundary.

这就像更多地了解某人所说的并不意味着你必须改变你的界限。

Most of conflict is about a lack of understanding anyway.

无论如何，大多数冲突都是因为缺乏理解。

When you learn more, you're trying to understand.

当你了解更多时，你会尝试去理解。

You understand your kid, understand someone wants to raise and you think it's ridiculous.

你了解你的孩子，了解有人想要抚养你，但你认为这很荒谬。

You can learn more.

你可以了解更多。

Tell me what's been going on.

告诉我发生了什么事。

What have you been doing?

你这阵子都在干什么？

Learning more about someone's position does not weaken your position.

更多地了解某人的立场并不会削弱你的立场。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

And I think that's really, really important in-

我认为这真的非常重要——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So key

所以关键

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

...

...

any form of leadership.

任何形式的领导。

Now, in terms of the power dynamics, there is something about the word power that like, you know?

现在，就权力动态而言，权力这个词有点像，你知道吗？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Isn't that weird?

这不是很奇怪吗？

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Yeah.

是的。

I think the way I think about it and what we do at Good Inside a lot in terms of our leadership and parenting style, I don't use the word power, but I think it's about embodying your authority.

我认为我思考这个问题的方式以及我们在 Good Inside 所做的很多事情在我们的领导力和养育方式方面，我不使用权力这个词，但我认为这是体现你的权威。

Parents have authority.

父母有权威。

Pilots have authority.

飞行员有权力。

Bosses have authority because they're the ones who have the job of setting up the whole system for success.

老板拥有权威，因为他们负责建立整个系统以取得成功。

That's their job, right?

那是他们的工作，对吗？

My job isn't to make my kid happy.

我的工作不是让我的孩子快乐。

My job is to help create the conditions for my kid to be a real functioning, confident adult.

我的工作是帮助我的孩子创造条件，让他成为一个真正有能力、自信的成年人。

That's what I believe, right?

这就是我所相信的，对吧？

A pilot's job is definitely not to keep passengers happy.

飞行员的工作绝对不是让乘客开心。

It's to get everyone safely on the ground.

这是为了让每个人都安全地到达地面。

A boss's job is not to keep everyone happy.

老板的工作不是让每个人都满意。

It's to set up the conditions for health and success of the business, right?

这是为了为企业的健康和成功创造条件，对吧？

Now, if you know that's your job, it's no one else's job but the CEO.

现在，如果你知道这是你的工作，那就不是别人的工作，而是首席执行官的工作。

To some degree, all the management, but that is their job.

在某种程度上，所有的管理人员，但这就是他们的工作。

And so there's a difference where if the CEO believes a job needs to be done a certain way, it's not that they have power, it's just their role involves having that authority.

因此，如果首席执行官认为某项工作需要以某种方式完成，那么这并不是说他们有权力，而是他们的角色涉及拥有这种权力。

And if someone else disagrees, it's up to them to say you can keep the job or not.

如果其他人不同意，则由他们决定你是否可以保留这份工作。

It's just you have different roles.

只是你们扮演的角色不同而已。

And I actually think owning that very outright, it's actually something I recently said at work in a review around something I really wanted and kind of owned, like in my role as a CEO, that is under my role to decide this is important.

事实上，我认为完全拥有这一点，这实际上是我最近在工作中围绕我真正想要和拥有的东西进行审查时所说的，就像我作为首席执行官的角色一样，这是我的角色来决定这很重要。

And now we have to figure it out.

现在我们必须弄清楚。

Let's see.

让我们来看看。

I would love some input on how we're going to get this done.

我希望就我们如何完成这项工作提供一些意见。

Same thing for a kid.

对于一个孩子来说也是如此。

One of the ...

中的一个 ...

lines I said over and over and over to my kid when they were younger, and I see so many Good Inside parents tell me that their kids reflect this back to them later, is, "My number one job is to keep you safe." So what does that mean?

当我的孩子还小的时候，我一遍又一遍地对他们说过这样的话，我看到很多内心善良的父母告诉我，他们的孩子后来也向他们反映了这一点，那就是，“我的首要工作是保证你的安全。”那么这意味着什么呢？

That kind of relates to power.

这与权力有关。

It can mean, why am I not letting my kid, I don't know, jump up and down on our kitchen counter?

这可能意味着，为什么我不让我的孩子，我不知道，在我们的厨房柜台上跳来跳去？

It's not because I'm pissed that my kid isn't listening.

这并不是因为我生气我的孩子不听话。

I'm not letting them jump up and down on my kitchen counter where there's a light above their head because my number one job is to keep my kid safe.

我不会让他们在我的厨房柜台上跳上跳下，因为他们头顶上有一盏灯，因为我的首要任务是保证我孩子的安全。

Is that power?

这就是力量吗？

I guess.

我猜。

I think it's authority.

我认为这是权威。

How would I embody that authority?

我如何体现这种权威？

I would say, "It looks hard for you to get down.

我会说：“你看起来很难下来。

I'm about to pick you up and put you on the floor." Because I have authority, right?

我要把你抱起来，放到地板上。”因为我有权力，对吗？

We get to this phone discussion, let's say, and I really do believe that the phone has to be charged out of the room at a certain time.

比方说，我们进行了电话讨论，我确实相信手机必须在某个时间离开房间充电。

I'm going to understand.

我会明白的。

I'm going to listen.

我去听听。

Hopefully, I'm connected to my kid, and they feel respected by me in a million ways.

希望我和我的孩子有联系，他们能以一百万种方式感受到我的尊重。

And it might lead to me saying, "Look, my number one job, still, is to keep you safe, and that really means making decisions that I really believe are good for you, short-term and long-term, even if you're upset with me.

这可能会让我说：“看，我的首要工作仍然是保证你的安全，这实际上意味着做出我真正相信对你有利的决定，无论是短期还是长期，即使你对我感到不安。

This is one of those times.

这是其中之一。

And so I love you.

所以我爱你。

This might be a point of conflict.

这可能是一个冲突点。

I know we're going to get through this.

我知道我们会渡过难关的。

And that is my role as a parent, and it comes from a place of wanting to protect you." And I think when you embody your authority in that way, kids never say thank you, and they will roll their eyes, and kids always feel loved and protected.

这就是我作为父母的角色，它来自于想要保护你的地方。”我认为当你以这种方式体现你的权威时，孩子们永远不会说谢谢，他们会翻白眼，孩子们总是感到被爱和被保护。

They really do.

他们确实这么做了。

I hear it from my kids.

我从我的孩子们那里听到的。

This is so true.

这是千真万确的。

Sometimes things happen with my kids, and I'm like, "No one's going to even believe this." But I was walking with my seven-year-old the other day and I said, "What does it mean to be a good parent?

有时我的孩子会发生一些事情，我想，“没有人会相信这一点。”但有一天，我和我七岁的孩子一起散步时，我说：“成为一个好父母意味着什么？

What does it really mean?

它到底意味着什么？

I'm curious." He really thought, and he goes, "It means you're kind of strict." And I said, "What do you mean strict?" He goes, "You have certain rules that you think matter." And he goes, "But it also means you also have to be loving and fun." And my heart hurts hearing myself say this, in a good way hurting.

我很好奇。”他真的想了想，然后说道：“这说明你有点严格。”我说：“严格是什么意思？”他说：“你有一些你认为重要的规则。”他说，“但这也意味着你也必须充满爱心和乐趣。”听到自己这么说，我的心很痛，以一种很好的方式受伤。

They know.

他们知道。

I think kids know.

我想孩子们都知道。

And maybe he says that because that's what we are, but I think kids know.

也许他这么说是因为我们就是这样，但我认为孩子们都知道。

And I can't even tell you how many kids I used to work with, and teens especially, the pain of their parents not embodying their authority was so clear.

我什至无法告诉你我曾经和多少个孩子一起工作，尤其是青少年，他们的父母没有体现他们的权威所带来的痛苦是如此明显。

They knew that they shouldn't be out at a certain time.

他们知道自己不应该在某个时间出去。

They knew that they were hanging out with kids who were bad news, and their parents had no idea, and they felt unanchored.

他们知道自己正在和坏消息的孩子们一起出去玩，而他们的父母对此一无所知，他们感到无依无靠。

They really, really knew.

他们真的、真的知道。

Not that their parents weren't exerting power.

并不是说他们的父母没有发挥力量。

Their parents weren't embodying their appropriate authority to protect their kids.

他们的父母没有体现出保护孩子的适当权力。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I had something come to mind, which is not a phrase that I've ever used before or heard before.

我想到了一些东西，这不是我以前用过或听过的短语。

But what comes to mind is statements of stance.

但我想到的是立场声明。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I feel like statements of stance in parent-child relationships, families, workplace, romantic relationships, et cetera, are great when they're about actions or about overriding themes, like, "No matter what, I'm trying to keep you safe.

我觉得在亲子关系、家庭、工作场所、浪漫关系等方面的立场声明在涉及行动或压倒一切的主题时很棒，比如“无论如何，我都会努力保证你的安全。

I might not get everything right, but that is non-negotiable internally, and I'm going to try and make it non-negotiable externally."

我可能不会把所有事情都做好，但这在内部是没有商量余地的，我会努力让它在外部没有商量余地。”

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It's a statement of stance about actions.

这是关于行动的立场声明。

Or, "Keeping you healthy and safe is my number one priority." Those are facts.

或者，“保持您的健康和安全是我的首要任务。”这些都是事实。

Those are things that one can really say and believe, and until the end of time, be trying to incorporate into one's behavior.

这些是人们真正可以说出来并相信的事情，并且直到时间结束时，都应该努力将其融入到自己的行为中。

But I feel like statements of stance about emotions are very dangerous.

但我觉得关于情绪的立场声明是非常危险的。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Hmm.

嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Like, "We don't yell in this house." "It's okay to cry." There's always a caveat.

就像，“我们不在这所房子里大喊大叫。” “哭一哭就好了。”总是有一个警告。

Of course, it's okay to cry.

当然，哭也没关系。

But there are times when crying is less appropriate.

但有时哭是不太合适的。

There's times when yelling might be appropriate.

有时大喊大叫可能是合适的。

There's times when emotions need to be expressed or not expressed in a particular way because, look, I don't think I'm alone in thinking that the kid tantruming in a public environment-

有时，情绪需要以特定的方式表达或不表达，因为，听着，我不认为我是唯一一个认为孩子在公共环境中发脾气的人——

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

is an embarrassing thing for them, for their parent, for people around, and it's not the end of the world.

对于他们、他们的父母、周围的人来说，这是一件尴尬的事情，但这并不是世界末日。

It's a tantrum, for goodness' sake.

老天爷，这就是发脾气。

People will survive.

人们将会生存下来。

But I feel like statements of stance about emotions kind of hold us to this standard that we'll never be able to meet.

但我觉得关于情感的立场声明有点让我们遵守这个我们永远无法达到的标准。

But that statements of stance about action-

但关于行动的立场声明——

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

until we fail, and hope we don't-

直到我们失败，并希望我们不会-

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

we can say things like, "My job is always to keep you safe.

我们可以这样说：“我的工作就是保证你的安全。

I'm always going to try and make the best decision for you and for your sister"-

我总是会尽力为你和你妹妹做出最好的决定”——

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Right

右

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

for instance.

例如。

But I think that many people, I'm not just speaking from my own experience, but in talking to friends and others, that they grew up in homes where there were these philosophies, these statements of stance, and the moment that things didn't match that statement of stance, the whole concept of what parents and children are supposed to be about just kind of started to dissolve.

但我认为很多人，我不只是从我自己的经历中说出来，而是在与朋友和其他人交谈时，他们是在有这些哲学、这些立场声明的家庭中长大的，而当事情与这些立场声明不符时，父母和孩子应该是什么样子的整个概念就开始消失。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And it creates that underlying fear, like, do they even really know what they're doing?

这会产生潜在的恐惧，比如，他们真的知道自己在做什么吗？

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Or maybe they don't know what they're doing, but maybe they're trying.

或者也许他们不知道自己在做什么，但也许他们正在尝试。

So in any case, it's just something that maybe we could-

所以无论如何，这也许是我们可以做的事情——

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

talk about for a moment.

谈一下。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

I have some reactions to that.

我对此有一些反应。

I kind of think you're talking about values and principles.

我认为你在谈论价值观和原则。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Right?

对吗？

And so I think there are, in my house, to be honest, it's not like we have some wall of like, "These are our family values."

所以我认为，老实说，在我家里，我们并没有像“这些是我们的家庭价值观”这样的墙。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I've seen those in people's homes.

我在人们家里见过那些。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Yeah.

是的。

That's not-

那不是——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah, on the refrigerator

是的，放在冰箱上

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

...

...

we're not organized enough to do that.

我们的组织能力还不够强，无法做到这一点。

But if I thought about a couple that come to mind, my job is to keep my kids safe.

但如果我想到一些，我的工作就是保证我的孩子的安全。

By the way, safe does not mean they're never in a situation without risk.

顺便说一句，安全并不意味着他们永远不会处于没有风险的情况。

That's not what I mean.

我不是这个意思。

But in general-

但总的来说——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

That's its own form of danger

这就是它自己的危险形式

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

...

...

Exactly.

正是如此。

The minimization of risk ...

风险最小化...

is also not safe.

也不安全。

But in general, my job is to keep you safe.

但总的来说，我的工作是保证你的安全。

I'm not going to let you do things that endanger yourself or others.

我不会让你做危害自己或他人的事情。

So that's one.

这就是其中之一。

Another principle I think about is, I will always tell you the truth, even if it's uncomfortable.

我考虑的另一个原则是，我会永远告诉你真相，即使这让人不舒服。

You can always count on me for that.

在这方面你永远可以信赖我。

I call that truth over comfort.

我称之为真理胜过安慰。

So if my kid says to me, "How are babies made?" That value is useful.

因此，如果我的孩子对我说：“婴儿是如何诞生的？”这个值很有用。

Another thing is all feelings are allowed, not all behaviors are okay.

另一件事是所有的感受都是允许的，但并非所有的行为都是可以的。

Stuff like that.

诸如此类的事情。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

What about we don't swear in this house?

我们不在这所房子里发誓怎么样？

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

So what I was about to say-

所以我想说的是——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And then you're on the phone, and then you screw up-

然后你打电话，然后你就搞砸了-

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

What I was about to say is-

我本来想说的是——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

and then the kid goes, "You swore."

然后孩子说：“你发誓了。”

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

To me, what's very different is these rigidities around behavior.

对我来说，非常不同的是这些围绕行为的僵化。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

We don't swear.

我们不发誓。

Swearing is a behavior.

说脏话是一种行为。

We don't cry in public.

我们不会在公共场合哭泣。

Behavior.

行为。

We don't tantrum here.

我们这里不发脾气。

That's a behavior.

那是一种行为。

Behaviors, all the time, are a manifestation of feelings that overpower skills.

行为始终是压倒技能的情感表现。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

So saying we don't do certain behaviors, to me, it doesn't even make logical sense.

所以说我们不做某些行为，对我来说，这甚至没有逻辑意义。

Well, what if I'm in a situation where I have a really intense emotion and don't have the skill to manage it?

好吧，如果我的情绪非常强烈，但又没有能力控制它怎么办？

The behavior's going to happen, and then I feel like a bad person.

这种行为将会发生，然后我就觉得自己是个坏人。

That's very different than values around intention.

这与围绕意图的价值观非常不同。

I want to be truthful with my kids, even if things are uncomfortable.

我想对我的孩子说实话，即使事情不舒服。

I might fumble around with the words.

我可能会摸索着用词。

I might even sometimes lie because I didn't do that value in action.

有时我什至可能会撒谎，因为我没有在行动中践行这一价值观。

But what I can come back to is, okay, nobody lives their values 100% of the time.

但我可以回想的是，没有人能 100% 地践行自己的价值观。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

So I think we're talking about actually something core to what we think about at Good Inside, which is I'm a good person with values who is totally imperfect and sometimes acts in ways I'm not proud of.

所以我认为我们谈论的实际上是我们在 Good Inside 所思考的核心内容，那就是我是一个有价值观的好人，但完全不完美，有时会以我不引以为豪的方式行事。

Both are true.

两者都是真的。

When families have values that are very behavior based, what ends up happening in the kids is they start to equate certain behaviors with morality.

当家庭的价值观非常基于行为时，孩子们最终会开始将某些行为与道德等同起来。

These are good behaviors that make me loved in my family, and these are bad behaviors that kind of make me feel like I'm not the right part of my family.

这些好的行为让我在家人中受到爱戴，而这些坏的行为让我感觉自己不是家庭的正确成员。

And they even make me wonder, am I lovable?

他们甚至让我想知道，我可爱吗？

Am I good inside after all?

我内心到底好吗？

Am I worthy?

我值得吗？

That's not good, because whenever we tie behavior to identity, that's shame.

这不好，因为每当我们将行为与身份联系起来时，那就是耻辱。

And we've tried to motivate kids with shame for hundreds and hundreds of years, and it does not work and causes a lot of problems.

数百年来，我们一直试图用羞耻感来激励孩子，但它不起作用，而且会引发很多问题。

I think another one which is interesting, especially as my kids get older, I said this to my teen recently.

我认为另一件事很有趣，尤其是随着我的孩子长大，我最近对我的孩子说了这句话。

I said, "This is really tricky.

我说：“这真的很棘手。

One of my jobs, as always, has been to create guidelines and rules with you.

一如既往，我的工作之一就是与您一起制定指导方针和规则。

It's always going to be kind of collaborative.

它总是会是一种协作。

Some, because of my authority, will be directive, that I believe are going to keep you safe." And I think this really relates to a phone.

由于我的权威，有些将具有指导性，我相信这将保证你的安全。”我认为这确实与手机有关。

"I want to tell you another part of my job that might sound contradictory, but I actually think we just need to hold them both at once.

“我想告诉你我工作的另一部分，这可能听起来很矛盾，但我实际上认为我们只需要同时兼顾这两点。

Another part of my job is to be there for you when you inevitably go against those guidelines, and I want you to know that.

我工作的另一部分是当您不可避免地违反这些准则时为您提供帮助，我希望您知道这一点。

We have rules around what can and cannot be done online, and," and I'll say this here, "and if you do become part of a really inappropriate text conversation, if there is bullying, if you do come across some images online that make you feel really uncomfortable and you're like, 'I shouldn't have seen that,' you're not getting in trouble with me.

我们对什么可以在网上做、什么不能在网上做有规定，而且，”我会在这里说，“如果你确实参与了一段非常不恰当的文字对话，如果存在欺凌行为，如果你确实在网上看到了一些让你感到非常不舒服的图片，你会想，‘我不应该看到这个’，你不会给我带来麻烦。

I'm not going to throw you a party.

我不会为你举办派对。

I will be there for you to help you through those moments." Those things sound contradictory, and in our family, we know two things can be true, and those are both true.

我会在你身边帮助你度过那些时刻。”这些事情听起来很矛盾，但在我们家里，我们知道有两件事可能是真的，而且这两件事都是真的。

To me, that's a really important thing for a teenager to know.

对我来说，对于青少年来说，了解这一点非常重要。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Let's talk about guilt and shame.

我们来谈谈内疚和羞耻。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I've heard some kind of catchphrase-y stuff, not from you, but like, oh, guilt is about the thing you did, and shame is a feeling about who we are.

我听过一些流行语，不是你说的，而是，哦，内疚是对你所做的事情，而羞耻是对我们是谁的感觉。

And while I'm not against those sort of 1990s, early 2000s kind of psychology isms, I feel like they're not very useful.

虽然我并不反对 20 世纪 90 年代、2000 年代初的那种心理学主义，但我觉得它们不是很有用。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Mm.

嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

In the same way that hearing that there's a gap between stimulus and response, and if you identify that gap, well, then, goodness, you're going to be the kind of person that can feel stressed but not be reactive.

就像听到刺激和反应之间存在差距一样，如果你识别出这种差距，那么，天哪，你就会成为那种会感到压力但不会做出反应的人。

You're going to be responsive, not reactive.

你会做出反应，而不是被动反应。

That's just a bunch of words that doesn't, here I'm a biologist, so I'll just say, doesn't take into account the fact that the biology of stress changes your perception of time and a whole bunch of other things that basically make that gap between stimulus and response much, much smaller.

这只是一堆话，但我是一名生物学家，所以我只想说，没有考虑到这样一个事实：压力的生物学改变了你对时间的感知，以及一大堆其他因素，这些因素基本上使刺激和反应之间的差距变得非常非常小。

And I think once people understand that, they go, oh, so like the kitchen refrigerator magnet or the poster on the wall that says, there's a gap between stimulus and response.

我认为一旦人们理解了这一点，他们就会觉得，哦，就像厨房冰箱磁铁或墙上的海报一样，刺激和反应之间存在差距。

It was supposed to save me, but it didn't.

它本来应该救我的，但它没有。

Of course not.

当然不是。

We're just in different states of mind at different times.

我们只是在不同的时间处于不同的心态。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So how do you define, no pressure here-

那么你如何定义，这里没有压力-

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

but how do you define guilt versus shame?

但你如何定义内疚与羞耻呢？

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Great.

太棒了。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And what about guilt and shame?

那么内疚和羞耻又如何呢？

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Great.

太棒了。

Two of my favorite topics.

我最喜欢的两个主题。

I have a couple different ways of defining things.

我有几种不同的定义事物的方法。

I'm like you.

我和你一样。

To me, I like defining things in ways that are very concrete and very usable.

对我来说，我喜欢以非常具体且非常有用的方式定义事物。

That's all.

就这样。

And if there's multiple ways of doing that, that's great.

如果有多种方法可以做到这一点，那就太好了。

So the way I think about guilt, and this will probably set us off in a direction about what is not guilt also, is guilt is a feeling I have when I act out of alignment with my values.

因此，我对内疚的看法，这可能会让我们朝着非内疚的方向发展，内疚是当我的行为与我的价值观不符时的一种感觉。

And in that way, guilt is a really useful feeling.

从这个角度来看，内疚是一种非常有用的感觉。

Real useful, because it makes me reflect on, wait, I didn't act in line with my values.

确实有用，因为它让我反思，等等，我的行为不符合我的价值观。

I wonder why.

我想知道为什么。

What would I have had to do differently?

我必须采取什么不同的做法？

What got in my way?

是什么阻碍了我？

Wow, I'm so glad I have that information from my body to have this deeply uncomfortable feeling to set in that process.

哇，我很高兴我从我的身体中得到了这些信息，在这个过程中产生了这种非常不舒服的感觉。

So if I yell at my kid, I'm going to feel guilty.

所以如果我对我的孩子大喊大叫，我会感到内疚。

I think about a time when my kid told me, "I lied to you.

我想起有一次我的孩子告诉我：“我骗了你。

I did take that eraser from that kid in school, and I feel really guilty." And I said, "First of all, I'm so glad you told me that.

我确实在学校里从那个孩子那里拿走了那块橡皮，我感到非常内疚。”我说：“首先，我很高兴你告诉我这些。

I'm so glad you're feeling guilty.

我很高兴你感到内疚。

That's the right way to feel.

这才是正确的感受方式。

Now, there must've been something so hard about seeing something so shiny and fun that you don't have.

现在，看到你没有的如此闪亮和有趣的东西一定是非常困难的。

I totally get that.

我完全明白。

And you're right, that's not in your values to take it.

你是对的，这不符合你的价值观。

So that's a useful feeling.

所以这是一种有用的感觉。

That feeling's going to help you." Not do something like that again.

这种感觉会对你有所帮助。”不再做类似的事情。

Let's figure out what you can do.

让我们想想你能做什么。

Not just to say sorry.

不只是说对不起。

This is what parents miss.

这就是父母所怀念的。

You know what's going to happen another time?

你知道下次会发生什么吗？

You're going to see something else pretty cool that someone's got, and you know what most people think?

你会看到某人拥有的其他很酷的东西，你知道大多数人的想法吗？

"I'm going to take that." You're going to have the thought again.

“我要接受这个。”你又会产生这样的想法。

I would, too.

我也会的。

What can you do the next time you have that thought, right?

下次你再有这样的想法时，你能做什么，对吧？

All of this comes because of guilt.

这一切都是因为愧疚而来。

Useful feeling.

有用的感觉。

Guilt is a feeling you have when you act out of alignment with your values.

内疚是当你的行为与你的价值观不符时的一种感觉。

Now, to me, guilt is one of the most misunderstood feelings because what you hear all the time, and you'll hear how much it kind of conflicts with this definition, is something like this: "I haven't seen my friends in years.

现在，对我来说，内疚是最容易被误解的感觉之一，因为你一直听到的，你会听到它与这个定义有多少冲突，是这样的：“我已经很多年没有见到我的朋友了。

There's finally a dinner, but it would require me not to put my kid down to sleep." And if I'm talking to someone, I'd say, "Okay, well, I'm guessing you're not leaving your kid alone." No, again, my husband or my mom, someone who's a totally safe adult.

终于有一顿晚餐了，但这要求我不能让我的孩子入睡。”如果我和某人说话，我会说：“好吧，我猜你不会让你的孩子独自一人。”不，再说一次，我的丈夫或我的妈妈，是一个完全安全的成年人。

"But Becky, I told my kid, and she was clinging to me like, 'No, Mommy, I need it to be you.

“但是贝基，我告诉我的孩子，她紧紧抓住我，就像在说，‘不，妈妈，我需要的是你。

I need it to be you.' And so I'm not going to dinner." Do you know what I'm going to say, Andrew?

我需要的是你。所以我不去吃晚饭了。”你知道我要说什么吗，安德鲁？

Because I feel so guilty.

因为我感到非常内疚。

This is-- Right.

这是——对了。

"Ugh, someone asked me to be in the PTA meeting.

“呃，有人邀请我参加 PTA 会议。

I'm so busy, I can't, but I can't do it because I feel so guilty." Okay.

我太忙了，我不能这么做，但我不能这样做，因为我感到很内疚。”好的。

Again, I'm just curious.

再说一遍，我只是好奇。

I say, "Well, it sounds like you really want to go to dinner with your friends." She's like, "Oh, I do.

我说：“嗯，听起来你真的很想和你的朋友一起去吃晚饭。”她说：“哦，我愿意。

All I do is parent these days.

这些天我所做的就是为人父母。

I literally haven't seen these friends in years.

我确实已经好几年没见过这些朋友了。

They're in town." And I said, "Tell me about your friendships.

他们在城里。”我说：“告诉我你的友谊。

Does that mean you-- Do you value them?" "Yes.

这是否意味着你——你重视他们吗？” “是的。

I know that I'm kind of more than just someone who puts down my kid for bed, and I love doing that, but this matters, too." So I said, "This is really interesting.

我知道我不仅仅是一个让我的孩子上床睡觉的人，我喜欢这样做，但这也很重要。”所以我说：“这真的很有趣。

You really value your friendships.

你真的很重视你的友谊。

Your life right now feels out of balance, and that your friendships, that part of your burner of your stove is really low.

你现在的生活感觉不平衡，你的友谊，你炉子的燃烧器的那部分真的很低。

Okay.

好的。

And you're not going because you feel guilty.

你不去是因为你感到内疚。

I just want to share an idea.

我只是想分享一个想法。

Guilt is a feeling you have when you act out of alignment with your values.

内疚是当你的行为与你的价值观不符时的一种感觉。

It seems like going to dinner would be in line with your values and almost..." It's like, yeah, that's true.

看来去吃晚饭符合你的价值观，而且几乎……”就像，是的，确实如此。

So what is this feeling?

那么这种感觉是什么呢？

And here's what I think the feeling is.

这就是我认为的感觉。

I call it not guilt, just because I haven't figured out a more sophisticated term.

我称之为不内疚，只是因为我还没有找到一个更复杂的术语。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

But here's what I think is happening.

但这就是我认为正在发生的事情。

A lot of us, especially women, when we were growing up, we learned to notice everyone's feelings around us, and we learned that our value really and our worth, really, and we were kind of best and good girls when we took care of everyone else's feelings except for our own.

我们很多人，尤其是女性，在成长的过程中，我们学会了注意周围每个人的感受，我们认识到我们的价值和价值，真的，当我们照顾除了我们自己的感受之外的其他人的感受时，我们就是最好的好女孩。

I think so many young girls especially become expert at what people need of them by becoming distant from what they need for themselves.

我认为很多年轻女孩通过远离自己的需求而成为了解人们对她们的需求的专家。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

The picture I get in my mind is sort of like having antennae cast in every direction-

我脑海中浮现出的画面有点像天线向各个方向投射——

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

That's right

没错

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

except perhaps at the-

也许除了-

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Inward

向内

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

exclusion of paying attention to the antennae that are inward.

排除注意向内的天线。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Exactly.

正是如此。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And we are, attentional resources are finite.

而我们，注意力资源是有限的。

I mean, we just don't have the capacity to-

我的意思是，我们只是没有能力-

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

That's right

没错

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

respond to other people's emotions and feel at the same time, to the same degree that we would if we just concentrated on theirs or our emotions.

对他人的情绪做出反应并同时感受到，就像我们只专注于他们或我们的情绪一样。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

And kids are-

孩子们是——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I mean, that's just a fact of how humans work

我的意思是，这就是人类工作方式的事实

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

...

...

yeah, and kids are oriented by attachment.

是的，孩子们都是以依恋为导向的。

They have to learn with their families.

他们必须和家人一起学习。

"How do I become the most lovable, safest version of myself?" So I have a friend who, it's true I remember her even in middle school.

“我怎样才能成为最可爱、最安全的自己？”我有一个朋友，确实我在中学时就记得她。

"I can't come.

“我不能来。

My dad's traveling, and my mom really needs me to stay home and watch a movie with her." Right?

我爸爸出差了，我妈妈真的需要我留在家里和她一起看电影。”正确的？

And I know this mom well.

我很了解这位妈妈。

It's like, "Oh, you don't love me, you don't..." Right?

就像，“哦，你不爱我，你不……”对吧？

I mean, this was-- So she became expert at always noticing other people's emotions, and not only noticing them, taking the emotions from them, kind of like taking them into their body and almost metabolizing them for them.

我的意思是，这是——所以她成为了总是注意到别人的情绪的专家，不仅是注意到他们，还从他们身上吸收情绪，有点像把它们带入他们的身体，几乎为他们代谢它们。

That's not guilt.

那不是罪孽。

That is taking someone else's emotions and taking them into your body at the expense of taking care of your own needs.

这就是以牺牲照顾自己的需求为代价，将别人的情绪带入你的身体。

And so I have a visual for this because I think it's really powerful where let's say it's the situation where a mom is saying, "I really want to go out to dinner, but I feel so guilty." First thing, it's just powerful to say, "That is not guilt.

所以我对此有一个视觉效果，因为我认为它非常强大，假设这是一个妈妈说的情况，“我真的很想出去吃晚饭，但我感到很内疚。”首先，说“这不是内疚”是很有力量的。

It is something else, and it is real, and it is powerful, but it is not guilt." What is happening?

这是别的东西，它是真实的，它是强大的，但它不是罪恶感。”怎么了？

I'm on one side of a tennis court, like me and you, Andrew, but let's say it's a tennis court, and you're on the other side, or even-- And in between, instead of a net, it's like a glass table.

我在网球场的一侧，就像我和你一样，安德鲁，但假设这是一个网球场，而你在另一侧，甚至——在中间，它不是一张网，而是一张玻璃桌。

Over here, I am here in my desire to go out with my friends because I do value my friendships.

在这里，我来这里是为了和朋友们一起出去，因为我确实珍惜我的友谊。

Okay.

好的。

Over there is you're upset about it.

那边你对此感到不安。

And let's say instead, you're my daughter.

不如说，你是我的女儿。

You're like, "No, no, don't go.

你会说：“不，不，别走。

No one else can put me to bed." That is definitely hard to deal with, but that is your daughter's feelings.

没有人可以让我上床睡觉。”这确实很难处理，但那是你女儿的感受。

Those are not your feelings.

这些不是你的感受。

Those are your daughter's feelings.

这是你女儿的感受。

And some of us/a lot of us have developed this tendency where we're on this court, and all of a sudden, all those feelings from your side somehow go through that wall, and they come to your side, and you call it guilt.

我们中的一些人/我们中的很多人在法庭上已经形成了这种倾向，突然之间，所有来自你这边的感觉都以某种方式穿过那堵墙，来到你这边，你称之为内疚。

It is not guilt.

这不是罪孽。

And to me, one of the most liberating things, and this actually relates to empathy, as I always say, is to give that feeling back to its rightful owner.

对我来说，最自由的事情之一，这实际上与同理心有关，正如我常说的，就是将这种感觉归还给它的合法主人。

Because what that means is if I really give it back, now I have a boundary.

因为这意味着如果我真的把它还给我，现在我就有了一个界限。

That's my kid's feeling.

这就是我孩子的感觉。

That's not mine.

那不是我的。

And I can now actually empathize.

现在我真的能体会到了。

People said, "No, I was empathizing.

人们说：“不，我是在同情。

I wasn't going out." No, no, no, no. That's not empathy.

我没有出去。”不，不，不，不。这不是同理心。

You weren't going out with your friends because you couldn't handle the distress in your body.

你没有和朋友出去，因为你无法应对身体的痛苦。

You just made your daughter's feelings your own.

你只是把你女儿的感受变成了你自己的。

You just engaged in something almost selfish.

你只是做了一些近乎自私的事情。

This has nothing to do with your daughter.

这与你女儿无关。

In those situations, that's why we say weird things to our four-year-old like, "Don't you want Mommy to have friends?" I feel like four-year-olds are like, "Why are you asking me that question?" It's like a pilot being like, "Don't you want me to make an emergency landing?" If you need to make an emergency landing, don't ask me for permission.

在这种情况下，这就是为什么我们会对四岁的孩子说一些奇怪的话，比如“你不想妈妈有朋友吗？”我觉得四岁的孩子会问：“你为什么问我这个问题？”就像飞行员说：“你不想让我紧急迫降吗？”如果您需要紧急着陆，请不要征求我的许可。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Because once I give it back to my daughter, I can do this.

因为一旦我把它还给我的女儿，我就可以做到这一点。

I can say, "You really wish I would go "...

我可以说，“你真的希望我去”......

put you to bed tonight." "You're right.

今晚让你睡觉。” “你说得对。

It feels so different when Grandma does it." "Oh, it does.

奶奶做的时候感觉很不一样。” “哦，确实如此。

I'm going out.

我要出去了。

It's okay if you're upset.

如果你不高兴也没关系。

I'll be back, and I'll kiss you, and I'll see you in the morning." And then this next part's so important.

我会回来的，我会吻你，早上见。”接下来的部分非常重要。

When you walk out, I don't want any person having any illusion that the daughter's going to be like, "Yes, you go, girl." No. She is going to scream.

当你走出去时，我不希望任何人有任何幻想，认为女儿会说：“是的，你走吧，女孩。”不，她会尖叫。

That's okay.

没关系。

Going back to the boundary.

回到境界。

You're allowed to take care of your needs, and other people are allowed to be inconvenienced and upset by it.

你可以照顾自己的需求，也可以允许其他人因此而感到不便和不安。

It doesn't mean your needs are wrong, it doesn't mean their feelings are wrong, and it definitely doesn't mean you feel guilty.

这并不意味着你的需求是错误的，并不意味着他们的感受是错误的，更不意味着你感到内疚。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, LMNT.

我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商之一 LMNT。

LMNT is an electrolyte drink that has everything you need but nothing you don't.

LMNT 是一种电解质饮料，拥有您需要的一切，但没有您不需要的。

That means the electrolytes, sodium, magnesium, and potassium, all in the correct ratios, but no sugar.

这意味着电解质、钠、镁和钾的比例都正确，但不含糖。

Proper hydration is critical for optimal brain and body function.

适当的水合作用对于大脑和身体的最佳功能至关重要。

Even a slight degree of dehydration can diminish cognitive and physical performance.

即使是轻微程度的脱水也会降低认知和身体表现。

It's also important that you get adequate electrolytes.

获得充足的电解质也很重要。

The electrolytes, sodium, magnesium, and potassium, are vital for the functioning of all the cells in your body, especially your neurons or your nerve cells.

电解质（钠、镁和钾）对于体内所有细胞（尤其是神经元或神经细胞）的功能至关重要。

Drinking LMNT dissolved in water makes it extremely easy to ensure that you're getting adequate hydration and adequate electrolytes.

饮用溶解在水中的 LMNT 可以非常轻松地确保您获得足够的水分和电解质。

To make sure that I'm getting proper amounts of hydration and electrolytes, I dissolve one packet of LMNT in about 16 to 32 ounces of water when I wake up in the morning, and I drink that basically first thing in the morning.

为了确保我获得适量的水合作用和电解质，当我早上醒来时，我将一包 LMNT 溶解在大约 16 至 32 盎司的水中，并且我基本上早上第一件事就是喝它。

I also drink LMNT dissolved in water during any kind of physical exercise that I'm doing, especially on hot days when I'm sweating a lot and therefore losing a lot of water and electrolytes.

我还会在进行任何体育锻炼时饮用溶解在水中的 LMNT，尤其是在炎热的天气里，因为我会大量出汗，从而失去大量的水和电解质。

They have a bunch of different great-tasting flavors of LMNT.

他们有多种不同口味的 LMNT。

They have watermelon, citrus, et cetera.

他们有西瓜、柑橘等。

Frankly, I love them all.

坦白说，我爱他们所有人。

And now that we're in the winter months in the Northern Hemisphere, LMNT has their chocolate medley flavors back in stock.

现在正值北半球的冬季，LMNT 的巧克力混合口味又重新有货了。

I really like the chocolate flavors, especially the chocolate mint when it's heated up.

我真的很喜欢巧克力的味道，尤其是加热后的巧克力薄荷味。

So you put it in hot water, and that's a great way to replenish electrolytes and hydrate, especially when it's cold and dry outside, when hydration is especially critical.

所以你把它放入热水中，这是补充电解质和水分的好方法，尤其是当外面又冷又干的时候，此时水分补充尤为重要。

If you'd like to try LMNT, you can go to drinklmnt.com/hubermanlab to claim a free LMNT sample pack with the purchase of any LMNT drink mix.

如果您想尝试 LMNT，可以访问 Drinklmnt.com/hubermanlab，购买任何 LMNT 混合饮料即可领取免费 LMNT 样品包。

Again, that's drinklmnt.com/hubermanlab to claim a free sample pack.

再次强调，请访问 Drinklmnt.com/hubermanlab 索取免费样品包。

Today's episode is also brought to us by Eight Sleep.

今天的节目也是八觉给我们带来的。

Eight Sleep makes smart mattress covers with cooling, heating, and sleep tracking capacity.

August Sleep 生产具有冷却、加热和睡眠跟踪功能的智能床垫套。

Now, I've spoken many times before on this podcast about the critical need for us to get adequate amounts of quality sleep each night.

现在，我之前已经在这个播客中多次谈到我们每晚获得充足的优质睡眠的迫切需要。

That's truly the foundation of all mental health, physical health, and performance.

这确实是所有心理健康、身体健康和表现的基础。

And one of the best ways to ensure that you get a great night's sleep is to control the temperature of your sleeping environment.

确保您睡个好觉的最佳方法之一就是控制睡眠环境的温度。

And that's because in order to fall and stay deeply asleep, your body temperature actually has to drop by about one to three degrees.

这是因为为了入睡并保持深度睡眠，您的体温实际上必须下降约一到三度。

And in order to wake up feeling refreshed and energized, your body temperature actually has to increase about one to three degrees.

为了醒来时感到神清气爽、精力充沛，您的体温实际上必须升高约一到三度。

Eight Sleep makes it incredibly easy to control the temperature of your sleeping environment by allowing you to control the temperature of your mattress cover at the beginning, middle, and end of the night.

八睡眠让您可以非常轻松地控制睡眠环境的温度，让您可以在晚上的开始、中间和结束时控制床垫套的温度。

I've been sleeping on an Eight Sleep mattress cover for nearly four years now, and it has completely transformed and improved the quality of my sleep.

我已经睡在八睡眠床垫罩上近四年了，它彻底改变并改善了我的睡眠质量。

Eight Sleep has now launched their newest generation of the pod cover, the Pod 4 Ultra.

八睡眠现在推出了他们最新一代的 Pod 4 Ultra。

The Pod 4 Ultra has improved cooling and heating capacity, higher fidelity sleep tracking technology, and even has snoring detection that will automatically lift your head a few degrees to improve your airflow and stop your snoring.

Pod 4 Ultra 具有改进的冷却和加热能力、更高保真度的睡眠跟踪技术，甚至还具有打鼾检测功能，可以自动将您的头抬起几度，以改善气流并停止打鼾。

If you'd like to try an Eight Sleep mattress cover, go to eightsleep.com/huberman to save up to $350 off their Pod 4 Ultra.

如果您想尝试 8 Sleep 床垫套，请访问 foursleep.com/huberman，Pod 4 Ultra 最多可节省 350 美元。

Eight Sleep currently ships in the USA, Canada, UK, select countries in the EU, and Australia.

八睡眠目前在美国、加拿大、英国、欧盟部分国家和澳大利亚发货。

Again, that's eightsleep.com/huberman.

再说一遍，这是八睡眠.com/huberman。

Wow.

哇。

I say wow because I think the lens that you're looking at guilt through and the way you're defining it is so very different than the way it's been discussed ever, and I think this is a super important topic.

我说哇，因为我认为你看待内疚的视角以及定义它的方式与以往讨论它的方式非常不同，我认为这是一个非常重要的话题。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Hmm.

嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So I'd like to lathe into it a little bit more.

所以我想再多钻研一点。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

In some ways, the way that I think many people experience guilt, at least according to your definition, which, by the way, I love.

在某些方面，我认为很多人都会经历内疚，至少根据你的定义，顺便说一句，我喜欢这种方式。

It's when we've acted out of alignment with our values, versus feeling pressure.

当我们的行为与我们的价值观不符，而不是感受到压力时。

I think about, Lord knows I don't have the best reputation as having a short text response latency.

我想，上帝知道我并没有因为短信响应延迟短而享有盛誉。

It's variable.

它是可变的。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Sometimes I'm quick on the draw, and other times I'm like, "Oh, goodness, it'll be days or weeks."

有时我抽签很快，有时我会想，“哦，天哪，这需要几天或几周的时间。”

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Over the holidays, I was spooling through it.

假期里，我就这样度过了。

I would respond to people a week later.

一周后我会回复人们。

And I do my best, but I do often feel, quote unquote, "guilty" about not being as responsive in text to a number of people because I care about them.

我尽了最大努力，但我确实经常感到“内疚”，因为我关心他们，所以没有在短信中对他们做出回应。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I value them.

我很重视他们。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But I get overwhelmed by text messaging-

但我却被短信淹没了——

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

very easily, to the point where I have to put my phones out of the room when I work, et cetera.

非常容易，以至于我在工作时必须把手机从房间里拿出来，等等。

So the way I experience a bunch of text messages coming in is as pressure.

所以我感受到一堆短信的感觉就是压力。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

That then I feel guilty.

那我就感到内疚了。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Yep.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Now, I'm not trying to make this about me, but-

现在，我并不是想让这件事发生在我身上，但是——

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

No, I want to.

不，我想要。

Let's go into this.

让我们来看看吧。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But-

但是——

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

I have a lot to say

我有很多话要说

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

I feel, quote unquote, "guilty," but-

我觉得，引用原话，“有罪”，但是——

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Right

右

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

do I really feel-- But what's interesting is I believe in cognitive dissonance, and then what I notice is that then my brain tries to bridge that gap.

我真的感觉到吗——但有趣的是我相信认知失调，然后我注意到我的大脑试图弥合这种差距。

I come up with these justifications with like, "Well, when I text people and they don't respond for two weeks, I don't get upset." Which is true, unless it's in a particular sort of-

我想出这些理由，比如“好吧，当我给别人发短信而他们两周没有回复时，我不会感到不安。”这是真的，除非它是某种特定的——

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Right

右

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

category of circumstances.

情况类别。

So how come the way they view this whole dynamic is not the same as the way I view this dynamic?

那么，为什么他们看待整个动态的方式与我看待动态的方式不一样呢？

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Okay, maybe this is a more male-centric view as opposed to feeling porous, like I feel their upset.

好吧，也许这是一种更以男性为中心的观点，而不是感觉多孔，就像我感觉到他们的不安一样。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But I will say, in fairness to all the chromosomes and their arrangements, I do feel bad.

但我要说的是，公平地对待所有染色体及其排列，我确实感觉很糟糕。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It sucks.

太糟糕了。

I love these people, and-

我爱这些人，而且——

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Yep

是的

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

they're reaching out to say whatever, Happy New Year or something, and I'm feeling pressure as opposed to feeling-

他们伸出手来说什么，新年快乐什么的，而我感受到的是压力，而不是感觉——

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

how wonderful it is to have people in my life.

我的生活中有人陪伴是多么美好的事情啊。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

So here, this is such a beautiful example, where I'd ask myself or I'd ask you to ask yourself, "Okay You already named one of your values, which is interesting.

所以在这里，这是一个非常美丽的例子，我会问自己，或者我会让你问自己，“好吧，你已经命名了你的价值观之一，这很有趣。

"I really value my relationships." You said that.

“我真的很重视我的人际关系。”你这么说。

Okay.

好的。

That's one value.

这是一个价值。

And I think this is-- I'm going to ask you this question.

我想这是——我要问你这个问题。

Do you value quick responses all the time from you on text message?

您是否重视短信中的快速回复？

Is that a value of yours?

这是你的价值观吗？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

From me or to me?

来自我还是给我？

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

From you.

来自你。

Do I value always responding to people on text right away?

我是否重视立即通过短信回复他人？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

The truth is, if I'm really honest-

事实是，如果我真的很诚实的话——

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

I hate shallow exchange of any kind, except maybe a fist bump to somebody you just kind of feel some-

我讨厌任何形式的浅薄交流，除了你可能会感觉到某种——

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

kinship with on the street, and you have that connect, and you just give them the fist bump.

和街上的人有亲戚关系，你就有这种联系，你只需给他们碰一下拳头就可以了。

Great.

太棒了。

But I like more in-depth, lengthy connection.

但我喜欢更深入、更漫长的联系。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Like three-hour-long conversations.

就像长达三个小时的谈话。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Three hour-long conversations.

长达三个小时的对话。

Or a friend came by the other day for New Year's.

或者前几天有朋友来过新年。

He was on my list of people that, and yes, I made a list of people that I want to deepen my friendship with in the new year.

他在我的名单上，是的，我列出了我想在新的一年里加深友谊的人名单。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

He came by, we had a two-hour lunch, we chatted, and I feel like it was awesome and worth a million single-line text messages.

他过来了，我们吃了两个小时的午餐，我们聊天，我觉得这很棒，值得一百万条单行短信。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And I'm also the kind of person where I'm good to not see him for a while, not because I'm tired of him, but because-

而我也是那种暂时见不到他就很好的人，不是因为厌倦他，而是因为——

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

I also have other friends and things to do.

我还有其他朋友和事情要做。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So I'm more of a depth, not breadth, kind of guy.

所以我是一个深度型的人，而不是广度型的人。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

So this is such a powerful process.

所以这是一个非常强大的过程。

And then after this, I kind of want to link it back to how I've actually told my kids about why I do go out to dinner with friends.

然后，在此之后，我有点想将其与我实际上如何告诉我的孩子我为什么要和朋友出去吃饭联系起来。

Right?

对吗？

So you're like, "I value deep relationships.

所以你会说，“我重视深厚的关系。

I value relationships.

我重视人际关系。

I value deep relationships." And if I'm honest with myself, responding to someone right away, that's actually not my value.

我重视深厚的关系。”如果我对自己诚实，立即回应某人，那实际上不是我的价值。

But again, we can hold multiple things at once.

但同样，我们可以同时持有多个东西。

That doesn't mean I don't care about those people.

这并不意味着我不关心那些人。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

I just laid out all my values.

我刚刚列出了我所有的价值观。

What I think is so powerful as a not guilt diffuser is naming this directly to the people.

我认为作为一个无罪扩散器如此强大的东西是直接向人们指出这一点。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm.

嗯。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

So it doesn't have to be on text, but you're seeing person X, and you know, "I'm never that good.

所以不一定要在文字上，但当你看到某个人时，你就会知道，“我从来都没有那么好。

I just want to tell you, I really value our friendship.

我只是想告诉你，我真的很珍惜我们的友谊。

I really value these times we have together.

我真的很珍惜我们在一起的这些时光。

Something I just also want to get off my chest is going back and forth quickly on text, that's not something that's easy for me, that I do very often.

我还想吐露心声的是在文本上快速来回，这对我来说并不容易，但我经常这样做。

And so you might text me, and it might take me a while, and I just wanted to name that to you." Right?

所以你可能会发短信给我，这可能需要我一段时间，我只是想告诉你这个名字。”对吗？

Now, look, someone else always has the right to say, "Well, that's interesting.

现在，看，其他人总是有权说：“嗯，这很有趣。

That doesn't work for me.

那对我不起作用。

One of my top values with friends is someone who's always getting back and forth." To me, that's actually great.

我对朋友最看重的价值观之一就是总是能来来回回。”对我来说，这实际上很棒。

Now we know, okay, what are we going to do about that?

现在我们知道了，好吧，我们该怎么办？

That's fine.

没关系。

You know where someone stands.

你知道某人的立场。

And the reason I relate this to the situation with going to dinner is I remember early on when my daughter said, "Why do you have to go to dinner with friends?" Or, "Why do you and Dad..." This was it.

我之所以将这与去吃饭的情况联系起来，是因为我记得很早就我女儿说：“为什么你必须和朋友一起去吃饭？”或者，“为什么你和爸爸……”就是这样。

"Why do you and Dad go to dinner without us?

“你和爸爸为什么不带我们去吃饭？

I know the couple you're going out with.

我认识和你一起出去的那对情侣。

You both have kids.

你们都有孩子了。

Why can't you bring us?" Right?

为什么你不能带我们去？”对吧？

And this is where we say we feel guilt, but we don't, because I'm like, "Timeout.

这就是我们说我们感到内疚的地方，但我们没有，因为我就像，“暂停。

She's feeling this feeling, not me." And also, I don't need her permission or approval.

她感受到了这种感觉，而不是我。”而且，我不需要她的许可或批准。

That's the real parentified thing.

这才是真正的父母化的事情。

We go to our seven-year-old and we're like, "Don't you want me to have adult conversations?" Again, not-

我们去找我们七岁的孩子，我们说：“你不想让我进行成人对话吗？”再说一遍，不——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

That's not an atypical response.

这并不是一个非典型的反应。

I've heard parents do that.

我听父母这样做过。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Say that

这么说

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Like, "Don't you want me to have a social life?"

就像，“你不想让我有社交生活吗？”

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

But you know what it is?

但你知道它是什么吗？

It is asking your kid to do your job for you.

它要求你的孩子为你做你的工作。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm.

嗯。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Again, can you imagine a pilot say, "Do you think we should make an emergency landing?" That's how a kid feels when they're asked that.

同样，你能想象飞行员说：“你认为我们应该紧急着陆吗？”这就是孩子被问到这个问题时的感受。

They're like, "Why are you asking me that?"

他们会说，“你为什么问我这个？”

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Here's what I said to my daughter in that situation.

这是我在那种情况下对我女儿说的话。

I really did.

我真的做到了。

"Look, I want to tell you something.

“听着，我想告诉你一件事。

I love being your mom.

我喜欢当你的妈妈。

I really do.

我真的这么做。

It's one of the most important things in my life.

这是我一生中最重要的事情之一。

I also really like being married to Dad, and I really like the times we have when it's just us and other adults.

我也很喜欢和爸爸结婚，我也很喜欢只有我们和其他成年人的时光。

That's really important." I remember saying this, maybe I was really trying to double down.

这真的很重要。”我记得我说过这句话，也许我真的想加倍努力。

"We actually had that before you guys were here." You know?

“实际上，在你们来到这里之前我们就已经有了这个。”你知道吗？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And they're like, "What?"

他们就像，“什么？”

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Yeah, exactly.

是的，完全正确。

And so one of the reasons, I want to be honest with you, why do we go to dinner without you?

所以，我想对你说实话，原因之一是，为什么我们去吃饭时没有你呢？

It's not so much we go to dinner without you.

与其说我们没有你一起去吃晚饭。

We think of it as going to dinner with each other and just adults is that something we really enjoy.

我们认为这是和彼此一起吃饭，只是成年人才是我们真正喜欢的事情。

It's really important to us.

这对我们来说真的很重要。

It's a really important part of us, and that's why.

这是我们非常重要的一部分，这就是原因。

Being really vocal about your values as opposed to looking to your child unconsciously to give you permission to have those values.

真正直言不讳地表达你的价值观，而不是无意识地指望你的孩子允许你拥有这些价值观。

If you want to use power, that's a power move.

如果你想使用力量，那就是力量移动。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

And it's amazing.

这太棒了。

This is true in any time in life.

这在生命中的任何时候都是如此。

The more you can locate someone, the more you respect their boundaries.

你越能找到某人，你就越尊重他们的界限。

I use that word a lot.

我经常使用这个词。

I know, like, locate.

我知道，比如，找到。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

I'm sure you know people in your life, like, can I locate them?

我确信您认识生活中的人，例如，我可以找到他们吗？

You kind of know who they are.

你大概知道他们是谁。

You know what they value, and you respect them, right?

你知道他们看重什么，并且尊重他们，对吗？

When you can't locate someone, you feel very uneasy around them.

当你找不到某人时，你会在他们身边感到非常不安。

You're kind of like, "Where are you?

你有点像，“你在哪里？

Who are you?

你是谁？

What do you stand for?" And as you can see with my daughter, I wasn't saying something mean.

你代表什么？”正如你在我女儿身上看到的那样，我并没有说一些刻薄的话。

I was saying something true.

我说的是实话。

And so I think with the friendships, and when you say, "Is this guilty?" It's like, well, maybe my step and my action is just actually being honest with this person.

所以我会思考友谊，当你说：“这有罪吗？”就像，好吧，也许我的步骤和行动实际上只是对这个人诚实。

"I'm not very good at responding right away, and I want to let you know I deeply care about our friendship.

“我不太擅长立即回应，但我想让你知道我非常关心我们的友谊。

I'm not very good at responding to kind of small talk over text, and I just wanted to let you know that, so you didn't misinterpret it." I wonder what would happen.

我不太擅长通过短信回复闲聊，我只是想让你知道这一点，这样你就不会误解它。”我想知道会发生什么。

I wonder if people would kind of respond really positively.

我想知道人们是否会做出积极的反应。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I love it, and I can't help but recall when I was a kid, after dinner, my dad would sometimes take a walk by himself.

我喜欢它，我不禁想起小时候，晚饭后，我爸爸有时会一个人散步。

Now granted, he's a physicist, and he's a theoretical physicist, so all his experiments were in his head.

现在承认，他是一名物理学家，而且是一名理论物理学家，所以他所有的实验都在他的脑海里。

He did work on paper, too.

他也做过纸上作品。

So he would take these walks, and occasionally I'd see him coming back from these walks, and he'd be smoking a cigar, something he doesn't do anymore, fortunately.

所以他会散步，偶尔我会看到他散步回来，他会抽雪茄，幸运的是，他不再这样做了。

I'm grateful that he's very robust.

我很感激他非常坚强。

He was actually a guest on the podcast recently.

他最近实际上是播客的嘉宾。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Oh.

哦。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Talked about science and life, et cetera.

聊了科学、生活等等。

And one of the things that I remember thinking, and still to this day think and feel is, it's kind of awesome how he takes this walk, and he looked so happy with the cigar and his thoughts, and he'd walk.

我记得我思考过的一件事，至今仍在思考和感受的是，他走路的方式真是太棒了，他看起来对雪茄和他的想法很满意，他会走路。

And I wanted to be on those walks with him.

我想和他一起散步。

He was very, very busy.

他非常非常忙。

In fact, I wanted a lot more time from him than I got.

事实上，我想要从他那里得到的时间比我得到的要多得多。

It's kind of interesting because now it's oftentimes that I'm the busier one.

这很有趣，因为现在我常常是最忙的那个。

The tables turn, kids.

孩子们，形势逆转了。

But In all seriousness, I didn't think of it as self-care, but it was so clear that that was his time.

但说实话，我并不认为这是自我保健，但很明显那是他的时间。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

That was absolutely his time.

那绝对是他的时代。

And I knew when I could and should join for things and when I didn't.

我知道什么时候我可以并且应该参加一些事情，什么时候我不参加。

And so when you say, "The more you can locate someone, the more you respect their values," I feel like bells go off.

因此，当你说“你越能找到某人，你就越尊重他们的价值观”时，我感觉铃声响起。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It's exactly that.

正是如此。

And there are other examples of my mom, et cetera, but it's kind of interesting when we see somebody, adult or child, really in their element of their thing.

还有我妈妈的其他例子，等等，但是当我们看到某人，无论是成人还是儿童，真正处于他们的事物元素中时，这很有趣。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It's almost like we love them for it and through it.

就好像我们因为它并通过它爱他们。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And it fills us, I think, with a healthy sense of safety.

我认为，它让我们充满了健康的安全感。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

They're right there.

他们就在那里。

Kind of like the pilot flying the plane really well.

有点像飞行员驾驶飞机非常出色。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Yeah.

是的。

That's right.

没错。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

We're like, actually, we don't really want to know about the pilot.

事实上，我们并不想了解飞行员的情况。

I want to hear the thing at the beginning.

我想听一开始的事情。

We're about ready to take off.

我们即将准备起飞。

I actually don't like it when we're landing, and they say, "We'll be on the ground in just a few moments." I'm like, "We're at 10,000 feet.

事实上，我不喜欢我们着陆时的样子，他们说：“我们一会儿就到地面了。”我说，“我们在 10,000 英尺的高度。

Can we make it a little bit longer than that?"

我们可以把时间延长一点吗？”

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But you get the point, which is that I don't want to hear from the pilot.

但你明白我的意思了，我不想听到飞行员的消息。

I just want the pilot to fly the plane.

我只想让飞行员驾驶飞机。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

You want the pilot to do their job.

你希望飞行员做好他们的工作。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

And again, I think I have so many pilot metaphors around sturdy leadership, and I think it really is such a metaphor for how we teach people the skills they need to parent.

再说一次，我想我有很多关于坚强领导力的试点隐喻，我认为这确实是我们如何教导人们为人父母所需的技能的隐喻。

Because again, no one becomes a pilot overnight.

因为没有人能在一夜之间成为一名飞行员。

No one becomes a CEO-

没有人成为首席执行官——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You sure hope not

你肯定不希望

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

...

...

overnight.

一夜之间。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You sure hope not.

你肯定希望不会。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

No one becomes a lawyer overnight or a professional basketball player.

没有人一夜之间成为律师或职业篮球运动员。

I think we actually laud CEOs these days who say, "I don't know how to do leadership as well as I'd want to.

我认为现在我们实际上赞扬那些说：“我不知道如何发挥我想要的领导作用的首席执行官。

I'm getting executive coach." You all want to work for that person, right?

我正在聘请执行教练。”你们都想为那个人工作，对吗？

The amazing athletes in the world get amazing coaches, and they go to amazing training camps because they're amazing, right?

世界上出色的运动员都会有出色的教练，他们会去出色的训练营，因为他们很出色，对吗？

And so somehow with parenting, it's like the last area where people think, "I should become an amazing parent overnight.

因此，在养育子女方面，这就像人们认为的最后一个领域，“我应该在一夜之间成为一名出色的父母。

I shouldn't have to invest in skills or education." Even people who invest in skills and education for every other area of their life that they probably care about less, there's so much shame-

我不应该在技能或教育上投资。”即使是那些在生活中他们可能不太关心的其他领域投资技能和教育的人，也会感到非常羞耻——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm

毫米

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

...

...

we've internalized that we should be able to do it naturally.

我们已经内化到我们应该能够自然地做到这一点。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And you do become a parent overnight.

一夜之间你就成为了父母。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

You become a parent overnight.

一夜之间你就成为了父母。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Literally.

从字面上看。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

You do.

你会的。

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I'll remember my graduate advisor had two kids while I was working in the lab, saying that there were all these books back then about pregnancy.

我记得我在实验室工作时，我的研究生导师有两个孩子，他说当时有很多关于怀孕的书。

And she was like, "It's wild.

她说：“这太疯狂了。

There are all these things of what you should eat and shouldn't eat, and you and your partner, and how you should prepare for the birth and all this." And then at the hospital, they're like, "Here." And you're like, "Uh." Now, granted, that was in the early 2000s.

有所有这些关于你应该吃什么和不应该吃什么、你和你的伴侣、以及你应该如何为分娩做准备等等的事情。”然后在医院，他们会说，“这里。”而你会说，“呃。”当然，那是在 2000 年代初期。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

That's still what it is.

仍然如此。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You know?

你知道吗？

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

And they're like, "What do you need?" And they go, "You need a car seat to leave the hospital." Which, by the way, you definitely need.

他们会说，“你需要什么？”他们说：“你需要一个汽车安全座椅才能离开医院。”顺便说一句，你肯定需要。

That's all?

仅此而已？

Just a car seat?

只是一个汽车座椅吗？

How am I supposed to manage this?

我该如何处理这个问题？

Because the thing I want parents to know, because again, there's just so much shame, and maybe we should talk about shame, right, is the only thing that comes naturally when it comes to parenting is how you were parented.

因为我想让父母知道的事情，因为同样，有太多的耻辱，也许我们应该谈论耻辱，对吧，当谈到养育子女时，唯一自然而然的事情就是你是如何被养育的。

That comes naturally.

这是自然而然的。

That lives in your bones.

那住在你的骨头里。

That lives in your circuits.

它存在于你的电路中。

And there might be some people who say, "Amazing.

可能有人会说：“太棒了。

I have the greatest privilege in the world then.

那时我拥有世界上最大的特权。

What will come naturally is exactly-

自然而然的就是——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

...

...

what I value and what I want to do." I would say more often, people would say some version of, "Definitely not what I want to do," or, "Parts I'll take, parts I want to do differently."

我看重什么，我想做什么。”我更常说的是，人们会说“绝对不是我想做的”，或者“我会采取的部分，我想做不同的部分。”

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

And to me, it's kind of like if you were brought up speaking English, and you really want to speak Mandarin, or you want to speak Mandarin half the time to your kid, and someone said, "Are you going to learn Mandarin naturally?" I feel like you just want to say, like, "How does one learn Mandarin naturally?" You would, I don't know, you'd probably sign up for Duolingo.

对我来说，这有点像如果你从小就说英语，而你真的很想说普通话，或者你想一半时间对你的孩子说普通话，有人说，“你会自然地学习普通话吗？”我觉得你只是想说，“一个人如何自然地学习普通话？”我不知道，你可能会注册 Duolingo。

You'd find an app or something, or a course, and you'd then practice and practice, and you'd be able to make progress because you actually learned something new.

你会找到一个应用程序或其他东西，或者一门课程，然后你会练习再练习，你就能取得进步，因为你实际上学到了一些新东西。

And so I just think big picture, parents are so under-equipped and set up to feel, and this, I think, has to do with shame, that when my kids are struggling or when I'm yelling a lot, it means something is wrong with me or something is wrong with my kid.

所以我只是从大局来看，父母的装备太不足，无法感受到，我认为这与羞耻感有关，当我的孩子挣扎或我大喊大叫时，这意味着我有问题或我的孩子有问题。

I feel like these days in almost every area, if a CEO is saying, "I feel like I'm struggling, is it my fault or my employees' fault?" They'd probably say, "I don't know.

我感觉现在几乎在每个领域，如果一位首席执行官说：“我觉得我正在挣扎，这是我的错还是我的员工的错？”他们可能会说：“我不知道。

There's probably people around who can help me, who can teach me.

周围可能有人可以帮助我，可以教我。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Why do I keep yelling?" Right?

为什么我总是大喊大叫？”对吗？

And same thing with almost every other field.

几乎所有其他领域也是如此。

And to me, more than if there's any legacy I get to leave in this world, it's not even the approach itself, even though I think our approach to parenting is very different.

对我来说，即使我认为我们的养育方式非常不同，但我在这个世界上留下的遗产甚至不是方法本身。

I just want parents to know there is no shame in investing, in learning, in growing, in parenting, and to look at that like they probably look at every other area of their life.

我只是想让父母们知道，投资、学习、成长、养育子女并不可耻，并且像看待生活的其他领域一样看待这些。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I assure you that your legacy extends far beyond that, but includes it as well.

我向您保证，您的遗产远远不止于此，但也包括它。

You've had a tremendous impact and continue to.

你已经产生了巨大的影响并将继续下去。

It wasn't long ago that the power dynamics of parent-child relationships, where you do what I say, and I'm the parent, you're the kid, and that kind of thing.

不久前，亲子关系中还存在权力动态，你按照我说的做，我是父母，你是孩子，诸如此类。

And I grew up in a different era.

我是在不同的时代长大的。

I'm 49 now, and I've been wanting to say I'm 49 now, so that I can actually say something with having had some experience when things were truly very different.

我现在49岁了，我一直想说我现在49岁了，这样我就可以说一些在事情确实非常不同时经历过的事情。

They were just so different.

他们是如此不同。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It was like you took what you got, and you worked with it, and things are so different thanks to your part in all of this.

就好像你拿走了你得到的东西，然后你用它来工作，由于你在这一切中的参与，事情变得如此不同。

And one thing I do want to return to-

我确实想回到一件事——

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

because I realize I took us off track with it, is this idea of kids, but perhaps adults as well, feeling or thinking they feel someone else's feelings, taking that on.

因为我意识到我让我们偏离了轨道，这是孩子们的想法，但也许成年人也是如此，感觉或认为他们感受到了别人的感受，接受了这种感觉。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

This difference between real guilt and, gosh, it's really hard to come up with a word for it.

真正的内疚和天哪，真的很难用一个词来形容它之间的区别。

At one moment, I thought, well, maybe it's faux guilt.

有一瞬间，我想，好吧，也许这是一种虚假的内疚。

But no, you're not pretending.

但不，你不是在假装。

You're actually feeling something, which feels like guilt, smells like guilt-

你实际上感受到了某种东西，感觉像是内疚，闻起来像是内疚——

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Someone said-

有人说——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

tastes like guilt

尝起来像愧疚

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

...

...

someone said codependence.

有人说相互依赖。

I don't know that much-

我不知道那么多-

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm

毫米

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

...

...

about that word, but something like that.

关于那个词，但类似的东西。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Well, it's a whole landscape.

嗯，这是一整幅风景。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Yes, exactly.

是的，完全正确。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It's a whole landscape.

这是一整幅风景。

But one practice that I'm familiar with-

但我熟悉的一种做法是——

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

that I know exists in a couple of different realms of let's call it modern psychology tools, is this idea of creating a frame separation.

我知道存在于几个不同的领域，我们称之为现代心理学工具，就是创建框架分离的想法。

So, after you come together with somebody, say, to do therapy or something, or you've had sort of an emotional bind or entanglement doesn't have to be negative.

所以，当你和某人在一起之后，比如说，进行治疗或其他事情，或者你有某种情感上的束缚或纠缠，并不一定是消极的。

That one way that you can learn over time to differentiate their needs and wants from your needs and wants is this idea of, in your head, I know it sounds kind of corny, but there's a-

随着时间的推移，你可以学习区分他们的需求和需求与你的需求和需求的一种方法是，在你的头脑中，我知道这听起来有点老套，但有一个-

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

clear neuroscientific basis for this, at least to my understanding, of in your head, you say, for instance, if we had just done this, we had some resonance around something, maybe an argument.

至少根据我的理解，在你的头脑中，你会说，例如，如果我们刚刚这样做了，我们就会围绕某些事情产生一些共鸣，也许是一场争论。

Okay, like Dr. Becky and I got into a fight.

好吧，就像贝基博士和我打架一样。

That in order to really be able to move away from that and see it clearly, how much of that was yours, how much of that was mine?

为了真正能够摆脱它并清楚地看到它，其中有多少是你的，有多少是我的？

There's this idea that you tell yourself, okay, what are five ways in which you and I are clearly distinct entities?

你告诉自己这个想法，好吧，你和我是明显不同的实体的五种方式是什么？

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Mm.

嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So you say, and I know folks might chuckle at this, but you say, "Okay, I'm a man, you're a woman.

所以你说，我知道人们可能会笑，但你说，“好吧，我是男人，你是女人。

I live in California.

我住在加利福尼亚州。

Dr. Becky lives in New York."

贝基博士住在纽约。”

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You could even make it first person.

你甚至可以用第一人称。

You could say, or third person, rather, you could say, "I, Andrew Huberman, am wearing a black shirt and a black overshirt, and Dr. Becky is wearing black and white." Okay, so some people might think, what's the use of that?

你可以说，或者第三人称，更确切地说，你可以说，“我，安德鲁·胡伯曼，穿着黑色衬衫和黑色外套，贝基博士穿着黑色和白色。”好吧，可能有人会想，那有什么用呢？

But to me, as a neuroscientist, whoever came up with that, and it wasn't me, is nothing short of brilliant.

但对我来说，作为一名神经科学家，无论是谁想出这个主意，而且不是我，他都非常出色。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Because the brain organizes emotions in these broader schemas of physical objects, and physical distance, and distance in time.

因为大脑在这些更广泛的物理对象、物理距离和时间距离的模式中组织情感。

And that's the way that we can differentiate between ourselves and everything around us.

这就是我们区分自己和周围一切的方式。

And there's a whole discussion to be had about this, but so it's something that I've been playing with a little bit-

关于这个问题有一个完整的讨论，但这是我一直在玩的东西——

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

because I don't claim to be this ultra empath or anything, but I think it's clear that sometimes we take in our thoughts and feelings about what other people are feeling, sometimes accurate, sometimes not, and it can become very difficult.

因为我并不声称自己是超级同理心或其他什么东西，但我认为很明显，有时我们会吸收自己对其他人感受的想法和感受，有时准确，有时不准确，这可能会变得非常困难。

Whether or not someone's one of these, I guess you call it deeply feeling-

无论某人是否属于其中之一，我猜你称之为深情——

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Deeply feeling kids

感触颇深的孩子们

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

deeply feeling kids, or not.

深有感触的孩子，与否。

Anytime you get into an emotional resonance, good or bad-

任何时候你陷入情感共鸣，无论好坏——

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

I think we're porous.

我认为我们是多孔的。

We're porous, and that's part of what makes humans so beautiful.

我们是多孔的，这也是人类如此美丽的部分原因。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But I've found that practice to be very useful, even if it's just in my own head.

但我发现这种练习非常有用，即使只是在我自己的脑海中。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

They're over there, and I'm over here, but not even necessarily pushing off them, but thinking, like, "Oh, I'm me and you're you."

他们在那里，我在这里，但甚至不一定要推开他们，而是想，“哦，我是我，你是你。”

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Yep.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And there are a bunch of ways in which we differ in time and space, and I think the nervous system comes to understand that as a felt thing as opposed to just a statement.

我们在时间和空间上有很多不同，我认为神经系统逐渐将其理解为一种感觉到的东西，而不仅仅是一种陈述。

Like, "Hey, you own your emotions, I'll own mine." That's just a statement.

就像，“嘿，你拥有你的情绪，我拥有我的。”这只是一个声明。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

I-

我-

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Is this any of the s-

这是任何一个 s-

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

I've never heard of that, but I love that, and it is in parallel, I think, with so many of the things I teach parents.

我从未听说过这一点，但我喜欢这一点，而且我认为它与我教给父母的许多东西是并行的。

So even the idea of locating someone-

所以即使是找到某人的想法——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

...

...

to me, my version of people in my life that I know and love, even if I don't agree with anything they say, that I can locate.

对我来说，我对生活中我认识和爱的人的看法，即使我不同意他们所说的任何话，我也能找到。

They're like an egg with a shell.

它们就像一个带壳的鸡蛋。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

They have a shell.

他们有一个外壳。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

There's a boundary.

有一个边界。

We're really talking about boundaries.

我们真正谈论的是边界。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

We all have different levels of porousness to the external world.

我们对外部世界都有不同程度的渗透性。

And I think if you know, and there's pros and cons of both.

我想如果你知道的话，两者都有优点和缺点。

I really mean this.

我真的是这个意思。

I am not terribly porous to other people's experiences.

我对其他人的经历并不太了解。

I really have solid boundaries.

我确实有明确的界限。

There are definitely moments in my closest relationships because what people will say to me, "Okay, I know these are my feelings and not yours.

在我最亲密的关系中肯定有一些时刻，因为人们会对我说：“好吧，我知道这些是我的感受，而不是你的。

We're in a close relationship.

我们关系密切。

Can you be here a little bit more with me?" And that is true.

你能在这儿多陪我一会儿吗？”这是真的。

That is what I want to do, right?

这就是我想做的，对吧？

And sometimes it can be a little distancing, right, and a little separate.

有时可能会有点疏远，对吧，有点分离。

People on the other end of that spectrum, if they know I'm very porous.

那些处于这个范围另一端的人，如果他们知道我漏洞百出的话。

To me, one of the ways of also thinking about it, I think I gaze in before I gaze out, and I think a lot of people gaze out before they gaze in, right?

对我来说，思考这个问题的方式之一，我想我在凝视之前先凝视，我想很多人在凝视之前先凝视，对吧？

They spend a lot of time in other people's brains and less time in their own, right?

他们在别人的大脑中花费了大量的时间，而在自己的大脑中花费的时间却很少，对吗？

What do they think of me?

他们觉得我怎么样？

What do they think, right?

他们怎么想，对吗？

If that's what's going on for you, then the shell to your egg isn't always intact, and so there's a spillover.

如果您遇到这种情况，那么您的鸡蛋壳并不总是完好无损，因此会发生溢出。

It's like, whose feelings are whose?

就好像，谁的感情是谁的？

Whose thoughts are whose?

谁的想法是谁的？

I'm spending so much time worried about what that person thinks of me, I almost like, what do I think, right?

我花了很多时间担心那个人对我的看法，我几乎喜欢，我怎么想，对吧？

And so the exercise you're naming is actually just a resetting of a boundary, right?

所以你所说的练习实际上只是重置边界，对吗？

And things that are absurdly concrete are necessary for the most primal parts of our brain to actually understand.

对于我们大脑最原始的部分来说，真正理解荒谬的具体事物是必要的。

My name is Becky Kennedy.

我的名字是贝基·肯尼迪。

To me, what I say, I don't usually say that, I'll say, "My feet are on the ground." When I do a grounding exercise, everyone in our community knows this, is my hand is always on my heart.

对我来说，我所说的话，我通常不会这么说，我会说，“我的脚踩在地上。”当我做基础练习时，我们社区的每个人都知道这一点，那就是我的手始终放在我的心上。

I think there's some amount of having contact with your body.

我认为与你的身体有一定程度的接触。

My hand is on my heart.

我的手放在我的心上。

Sometimes I used to do this with clients, especially after an emotional experience, going like this.

有时我曾经和客户这样做过，尤其是在经历过情感经历之后，就像这样。

Name five things in the room is probably another way.

说出房间里的五件事可能是另一种方式。

There's a red clock.

那里有一个红色的钟。

I'm wearing a white shirt.

我穿着一件白衬衫。

They're very, very, very basic as a way of kind of coming back into your body.

它们是非常、非常、非常基本的一种回归身体的方式。

Two mantras that I find help parents a lot actually make me think about this exercise.

我发现两个对父母很有帮助的咒语实际上让我思考了这个练习。

One is, "I am the pilot, not the turbulence." In our kids' turbulent moments, when they are that turbulence, what so easily happens is we merge into that with them.

一是“我是飞行员，而不是湍流”。在我们孩子的动荡时刻，当他们处于那种动荡之中时，很容易发生的事情就是我们与他们融为一体。

And then it's no wonder our kids can't calm down or episodes last forever because we're just turbulence and turbulence together, right?

那么，难怪我们的孩子无法平静下来，或者情节永远持续下去，因为我们只是一起动荡和动荡，对吗？

So I'm the pilot, not the turbulence.

所以我是飞行员，而不是湍流。

Also, one day I'm going to do a partnership with some airplane company because I feel like airplanes are just so beautiful because the pilot gets a cockpit.

另外，有一天我将与一家飞机公司建立合作伙伴关系，因为我觉得飞机是如此美丽，因为飞行员有一个驾驶舱。

They get a boundary.

他们得到了一个边界。

That's what parents need.

这就是父母所需要的。

So that's one.

这就是其中之一。

And the other one, when your kids are upset or after there's an argument, some people get very dysregulated just knowing someone's upset with them, right?

另一方面，当你的孩子感到不安或发生争吵后，有些人会因为知道有人对他们感到不安而变得非常失调，对吧？

Which is, again, kind of whose feelings are whose.

这又是一种谁的感受就是谁的感受。

I find one of the most effective mantras, and again, these sound cheesy, is just, "I'm safe.

我发现最有效的咒语之一，再一次，这些听起来很俗气，就是：“我很安全。

This isn't an emergency.

这不是紧急情况。

I can cope with this." Because our body, if you tend to be porous, you get activated Just by other people being activated, even though it wasn't your feeling in the first place.

我能应付这个。”因为我们的身体，如果你倾向于多孔，你就会被其他人激活而激活，即使这不是你的感觉。

And your body actually needs the reminder that you're safe to not add to that turbulence.

您的身体实际上需要提醒您，您可以安全地不要增加这种动荡。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I love it.

我喜欢它。

Can we talk about projection for a second?

我们能谈谈投影吗？

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Sure.

当然。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

One of the things that drives me insane, people close to me know this, because of this issue of porousness versus non-porousness, is when people tell me how I feel.

让我发疯的事情之一，我身边的人都知道，因为多孔性与无孔性的问题，就是人们告诉我我的感受。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Mm.

嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And so I've talked to a few very qualified psychiatrists about this, and it's called projection.

所以我和一些非常有资格的精神科医生讨论过这个问题，这就是所谓的投射。

Sometimes it's, if in anger, it's evacutive projection, like, "You think I'm crazy," someone will say.

有时，如果在愤怒中，这是一种疏散的投射，比如，“你认为我疯了，”有人会说。

Like, "You think I'm crazy" or "You're upset with me," or something like that.

比如，“你认为我疯了”或“你对我感到不安”，或者类似的话。

I feel like projection is one of the kind of litmus tests of how porous we are.

我觉得投射是检验我们的漏洞有多大的试金石之一。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Mm.

嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Because, in theory, somebody should be able to tell us that we feel whatever.

因为从理论上讲，有人应该能够告诉我们我们的感受。

And if we first look inside, and by the way, I love this concept of do you first look inside or outside?

如果我们首先看内部，顺便说一句，我喜欢这个概念：首先看内部还是外部？

Do you listen to what's inside or outside first when something kind of arises emotionally outside you.

当你外部出现某种情绪时，你是先听内在的还是外在的？

Love that.

喜欢那个。

It's something I'll have to explore.

这是我必须探索的事情。

But if we don't do that, then you could see how projection would be very effective.

但如果我们不这样做，你就会发现投影会非常有效。

And I'm not accusing anyone of using this-

我并不是指责任何人使用这个-

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

in any kind of diabolic way.

以任何一种邪恶的方式。

I think people just do it because it worked, and they're doing it because they've always done it.

我认为人们这样做只是因为它有效，他们这样做是因为他们一直这样做。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But if somebody says, "You don't care about me as a friend," or telling someone how they feel is so very different than telling someone how we feel.

但如果有人说，“你不关心我作为朋友”，或者告诉别人他们的感受与告诉别人我们的感受有很大不同。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Duh.

呃。

All right.

好的。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Right.

对。

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It's kind of obvious.

这很明显。

And yet, once you start watching for projection, you see it all the time.

然而，一旦你开始观看投影，你就会一直看到它。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Not just at you, but in between people.

不只是针对你，也针对人与人之间。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Like, "I know this stresses you out," but people start doing it all the time.

就像，“我知道这会让你压力很大”，但人们总是开始这样做。

And it's very interesting to see how people kind of divide into a couple different groups on this, maybe two or more groups, in terms of whether or not it affects them or if it gets in their head, or somehow they're like, "No, that's ridiculous.

很有趣的是，看到人们如何在这个问题上分成几个不同的群体，也许是两个或更多的群体，根据它是否影响他们，或者它是否进入他们的头脑，或者以某种方式他们会说，“不，这太荒谬了。

I don't feel that way." And for me, it's very context-specific, but I'd love your thoughts on projection, both towards kids and from kids.

我不这么认为。”对我来说，这是非常具体的，但我很想听听你对投射的想法，无论是针对孩子还是来自孩子。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

So, all right.

那么，好吧。

I'm going to respond to that, and you just cut me off if you're like, "Becky, that's not the direction I want you to go in." Because I guess MGI, which is, I call most generous interpretation, is to me the embodiment of not what I do all the time, definitely not, because I'm imperfect, but what I think is just a useful framework to try to employ as much as possible.

我要对此做出回应，如果你说“贝基，这不是我希望你进入的方向”，你就打断我的话。因为我想MGI，我称之为最慷慨的解释，对我来说并不是我一直在做的事情的体现，绝对不是，因为我不完美，但我认为它只是一个尝试尽可能多地使用的有用框架。

Because the idea of what is the most generous interpretation of someone's behavior, like projection, counteracts our very natural human tendency, which is just what is the least generous interpretation, right?

因为对某人的行为最慷慨的解释（例如投射）的想法抵消了我们非常自然的人类倾向，这正是最不慷慨的解释，对吗？

We all come up with the least generous interpretation-

我们都想出了最不慷慨的解释——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm

毫米

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

...

...

of people's behavior all the time.

时时刻刻都在影响着人们的行为。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm.

嗯。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

And it's just quick, it's easy, and I think it's because in our brain, if we see something bad or annoying, it's just easy to think that that's the whole.

它很快，很容易，我认为这是因为在我们的大脑中，如果我们看到一些不好的或烦人的东西，很容易认为这就是全部。

Right?

正确的？

So I can't even tell you how many times, every parent I know will say, "My kid doesn't listen.

所以我什至无法告诉你有多少次，我认识的每一位家长都会说：“我的孩子不听话。

They hit all the elevator buttons.

他们按下了所有电梯按钮。

They hit other people." And then I said, "And I know what you're thinking.

他们打了其他人。”然后我说：“我知道你在想什么。

They're a sociopath." They're like, "That's literally what I'm thinking." I was like, "I know.

他们是反社会者。”他们会说，“这确实是我的想法。”我当时想，“我知道。

I have that thought, too."

我也有这个想法。”

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Well, no, when I was a kid, I used to push every button in the elevator.

嗯，不，当我还是个孩子的时候，我常常按电梯里的每个按钮。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Does that mean I'm a sociopath?

这是否意味着我是一个反社会者？

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

No. It means you are a good kid who has not yet learned the skills to regulate urges.

不，这意味着你是一个好孩子，但还没有学会调节冲动的技能。

That's all it means.

这就是全部意思。

That would be the most generous interpretation.

这将是最慷慨的解释。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

They're there.

他们就在那里。

You just want-- No, I'm kidding.

你只是想——不，我开玩笑的。

You just want to push them.

你只是想推动他们。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

You do.

你会的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I'm joking.

我在开玩笑。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

I have a kid like that, too.

我也有这样的孩子

He wants things for himself, and he derives a lot of joy from things.

他想要属于自己的东西，并且他从事物中获得很多快乐。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Those types of kids are going to do things.

这类孩子会做一些事情。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Okay.

好的。

That's my resilient rebel.

这就是我坚韧的叛逆精神。

Okay, but projection, why am I bringing that up?

好吧，但是投影，我为什么要提出这个呢？

So what's my most generous interpretation of why this projection would happen?

那么对于为什么会发生这种预测，我最慷慨的解释是什么？

Why would a kid say, "You're mad at me," or, "I can see how mad you are at me," or why would someone even say in adulthood, "You seem really, really stressed out." Right?

为什么一个孩子会说，“你生我的气”，或者“我能看到你对我有多生气”，或者为什么有人在成年后会说，“你看起来真的非常非常有压力。”正确的？

Again, the gazing in versus gazing out.

再次强调凝视与凝视。

I think it comes back to, in our childhoods, I mean, that's what often a lot comes back to.

我认为这又回到了我们的童年，我的意思是，这就是很多人经常回想起的事情。

Were we taught that we have an emotional life that lives inside of us?

我们是否被教导说我们内心有一种情感生活？

Then were we taught how to understand that emotional life?

然后我们被教导如何理解情感生活？

Then were we taught how to manage and cope with that whole emotional life?

然后我们被教导如何管理和应对整个情感生活？

Most people were not.

大多数人都不是。

So it becomes this very, very complicated conundrum.

所以这就变成了一个非常非常复杂的难题。

The emotional life is happening inside me.

情感生活正在我内心发生。

Again, you can't beat it.

再说一次，你无法击败它。

It's happening.

它正在发生。

Our feelings, can't get rid of them, and they're very powerful.

我们的感情，无法摆脱它们，而且它们非常强大。

They're sensations.

它们是感觉。

But if your framework was always you're getting punished, you're getting ridiculed, you're being a baby, then you develop a very conflictual relationship with your feelings.

但如果你的框架总是让你受到惩罚，你被嘲笑，你像个婴儿，那么你就会与自己的感受形成一种非常冲突的关系。

Like they can't be real.

就像它们不可能是真实的一样。

They almost can't be mine.

他们几乎不可能是我的。

That's really what-- They can't be mine.

确实如此——它们不可能是我的。

People like this often blame other people a lot for things they never did when they're really frustrated and upset, because it's almost like this can't be mine, so who did this feeling to me?

像这样的人，当他们真正感到沮丧和不安时，常常会因为自己从未做过的事情而责怪别人，因为这几乎不可能是我的，那么是谁给我带来了这种感觉呢？

You know?

你知道？

There's blame.

有责备。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You see a lot of that in the world.

你在世界上看到很多这样的事情。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

A lot of that in the world.

世界上这样的事有很多。

Who did this feeling to me?

谁给我带来了这种感觉？

Who put this in me, right?

谁把这个放进我体内的，对吗？

It's so fragile and so sad almost.

它是如此脆弱，几乎如此悲伤。

And so toxic.

而且还这么有毒。

But projection, in a way, is the only way that I can understand my emotional life, is by imagining you having an emotional life.

但在某种程度上，投射是我理解我的情感生活的唯一方法，就是想象你有一种情感生活。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm.

嗯。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

I don't know.

我不知道。

A lot of these things, I hear myself say this, I melt.

很多这样的事情，我听到自己这么说，我就融化了。

I was like, "Oh, what a vulnerable way to go about the world.

我当时想，“哦，这是一种多么脆弱的生活方式啊。

What an awful way to live in your body, that you're so overwhelmed and almost so self-abandoning of the information in your body that it must be someone else's." So So that's what projection is, right?

在你的身体里生活是多么可怕的方式啊，你如此不知所措，几乎如此自我放弃你身体里的信息，它一定是别人的。”这就是投影，对吧？

So what do we do when we see it, right?

那么当我们看到它的时候我们该怎么办呢？

I don't know.

我不知道。

What's an example, right?

举个例子吧？

Like, "You're so stressed out.

比如，“你压力太大了。

You've been so stressed," and maybe you're thinking of partnership, like, "I feel like you're the one who's stressed," right?

你压力太大了，”也许你正在考虑合作，比如，“我觉得你是压力最大的人，”对吗？

Never helps in the heat of a moment to be right.

一时冲动决不会帮助做出正确的决定。

I've tried it a million times.

我已经尝试过一百万次了。

I don't know about you.

我不了解你。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

To be right in an argument?

在争论中保持正确？

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

To be right in a heated moment when you're like-

在一个激烈的时刻，当你像-

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

No

否

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

...

...

"I'm going to be right."

“我会是对的。”

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Not if you want an effective outcome, no.

如果您想要有效的结果，则不可以。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

No.

不。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

No.

不。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

But it's a very hard urge to resist.

但这是一种很难抗拒的冲动。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

No. It took me many years to learn, but someone taught it to me in one hour.

不，我花了很多年才学会，但有人在一小时内就教会了我。

I feel very grateful that she taught me this.

我非常感谢她教会了我这一点。

She didn't tell me to do it, but I just realized if you just, I don't have any word other than just soften.

她没有告诉我这样做，但我刚刚意识到，如果你只是，我除了软化之外没有任何话可说。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

If you just kind of imagine becoming more like a noodle than a rigid bar of iron.

如果你想象一下变得更像一根面条而不是一根坚硬的铁条。

I just go .

我就走了。

And I actually think of the way that my, he always comes up, but I had this bulldog mastiff, Costello, and he was super lazy.

事实上，我想到了我的，他总是出现，但我有一只斗牛犬獒，科斯特洛，他非常懒。

The contract with him was he would protect me with his entire life, but if my life wasn't on the line, noodle.

和他的契约是他会用一生来保护我，但如果我的生命不危在旦夕，面条。

And I remember just thinking, like, "If I just go there-"

我记得我只是想，“如果我去那里——”

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

"then the basic contract of I care about you, I'll protect you with my life, is still there." So I guess I learned it from my bulldog, but it sort of played out in a romantic relationship, and it was just really beautiful.

“那我关心你，我会用生命保护你的基本契约，还在。”所以我想我是从我的斗牛犬那里学到的，但它在一段浪漫的关系中发挥了作用，而且它真的很美丽。

It was one of the best things I learned from the two of them.

这是我从他们两个身上学到的最好的东西之一。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Is that I just literally physically soften, then everything becomes apparent.

我只是从字面上软化了身体，然后一切就变得显而易见了。

Somehow for me, it allows me to get back into my own eggshell-

不知怎的，对我来说，它让我回到了自己的蛋壳里——

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Yep

是的

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

but still have optics out.

但仍然有光学器件。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Yep.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Now that's me.

现在就是我了。

And that doesn't mean in the heat of the moment I'm not feeling like I want to be reactive.

这并不意味着在最激烈的时刻我不想做出反应。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But for me, a physical change to my body-

但对我来说，我的身体发生了物理变化——

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

self-directed physical change to my body is what just kind of changed everything.

对我身体的自我引导的身体改变改变了一切。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Yeah, and I think this is so true in relationships, definitely at work, and definitely in parenting, is you don't have to represent everything you believe in in a given moment.

是的，我认为这在人际关系中、在工作中、在养育子女中都是如此，你不必在某个特定时刻代表你所相信的一切。

We're not so fragile to be like, "No, and you're projecting." I have time.

我们不会脆弱到说“不，你在投射”。我有时间。

This is a heated moment.

这是一个激烈的时刻。

I can kind of chill out.

我可以放松一下。

You're so stressed, and I think I'm not.

你压力很大，而我想我没有。

I think there's projection.

我认为有投影。

I might say like, "Oh, I am?

我可能会说，“哦，我是吗？

Well, who cares?" Just get through the moment, right?

好吧，谁在乎呢？”只要度过这一刻，对吧？

And then maybe after, if it feels important, I say, "I feel like this thing happens sometimes where when you're stressed, you say I'm stressed.

然后也许之后，如果感觉很重要，我会说，“我觉得有时会发生这样的事情，当你有压力时，你会说我有压力。

I don't know.

我不知道。

Let's talk about this." That's when that happens.

我们来谈谈这个吧。”那时就会发生这种情况。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

I think this is really true with kids, too, right?

我想对于孩子来说也是如此，对吧？

This happened the other day, and in some ways it's the same strategy, which I jokingly on Instagram called Do Nothing with a capital D and a capital N, because so many times in hard situations, especially when you're accused of something that's not true, people will say to parents, "Oh, so you're just going to do nothing?" Where I'm like, take away the just.

这件事发生在前几天，从某种程度上来说，这是同样的策略，我在 Instagram 上开玩笑地称之为“什么也不做”，因为很多时候在困难的情况下，尤其是当你被指责做一些不真实的事情时，人们会对父母说，“哦，所以你什么也不做？”我喜欢的地方，带走正义。

Doing nothing in a heated moment is a very sophisticated technique because really what you're saying is you're doing nothing on the outside, and you're being an adult and managing your feelings on the inside.

在激动的时刻什么都不做是一项非常复杂的技巧，因为实际上你所说的是你在外面什么都不做，你是一个成年人，在内心管理你的感受。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Amen to that.

阿门。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Versus doing nothing on the inside-

与在内部什么都不做相比——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

...

...

and just yelling or reacting on the outside.

只是在外面大喊大叫或做出反应。

So the other day, my son came to me before school, my youngest, and he goes, "My sweatshirt's still dirty." And I was like, "Oh, man." He goes, "You promised me you would wash my sweatshirt before school." Between us, he never asked me that, okay?

有一天，我最小的儿子在放学前来找我，他说：“我的运动衫还是脏的。”我当时想，“哦，伙计。”他说：“你答应过我会在上学前洗我的运动衫。”我们之间，他从来没有问过我这个问题，好吗？

And here's my fork in the road, is like we all know what it would be easier.

这是我的岔路口，我们都知道什么会更容易。

And by the way, I wanted to say back to him, 99% of me was about to go, "You never asked me." And then he'd say, "I did." "No, you didn't, and now you're lying to me." And all of a sudden, it's like, okay, you know what he was saying to me?

顺便说一句，我想对他说，99%的我都想说：“你从来没有问过我。”然后他会说：“我做到了。” “不，你没有，现在你却在骗我。”突然之间，就好像，好吧，你知道他对我说什么吗？

"I wish my sweatshirt was clean." That's what he was saying.

“我希望我的运动衫是干净的。”他就是这么说的。

That's what we're all saying, and I'm so upset about it.

我们都这么说，我对此感到非常沮丧。

The feeling is so big that it's too overwhelming in this moment as a seven-year-old to be mine, so I kind of have to make it your fault to try to make sense of it.

这种感觉如此之大，以至于作为一个七岁的孩子，此刻我无法承受这种感觉，所以我不得不把它归咎于你的错，试图去理解它。

So what did I do in the moment?

那么我当时做了什么？

I literally did nothing.

我实际上什么也没做。

He goes, "You promised me you'd watch my sweatshirt." And I went like this.

他说：“你答应过我会看管我的运动衫的。”我就这样走了。

I kind of was just looking at him like I knew what it was like to want something and not be able to have it.

我只是看着他，好像我知道想要某样东西却无法拥有它是什么感觉。

And he's like, "You did." In the moment, I go, "I did?

他说：“你做到了。”在那一刻，我说：“我做到了？

Ugh, that sweatshirt is dirty.

呃，那件运动衫脏了。

You really wanted it to be clean." And he's like, "I really did." And I was like, "Oh, that's the worst." I'm not joking.

你真的希望它是干净的。”他说：“我真的做到了。”我当时想，“哦，那是最糟糕的。”我不是在开玩笑。

And then by five minutes later, I didn't say anything.

五分钟后，我什么也没说。

He got another sweatshirt.

他又买了一件运动衫。

We moved on.

我们继续前进。

I didn't say.

我没说。

I wasn't going to ruin the moment by being like, "See, you could cope," or, "You never asked me." But I think in both these moments, whether someone's saying you're stressed or my kid's accusing me, I think about this a lot in parenting.

我不会因为“看，你能应付”或者“你从来没有问过我”而毁掉这一刻。但我认为在这两个时刻，无论是有人说你压力很大，还是我的孩子在指责我，我在养育孩子时都会思考这一点。

I don't have to prove my parenting in a moment.

我不需要立刻证明我的养育之恩。

I don't have to prove it to my kid.

我不需要向我的孩子证明这一点。

I don't have to prove it because my mother-in-law is watching.

我不需要证明，因为我婆婆在看着。

I trust myself way more than I trust one single moment to represent everything about me.

我更相信自己，而不是相信某一时刻能够代表我的一切。

And I think when we can gain a little bit of that confidence, we have a lot more freedom to just be effective and to also know there's a moment to do nothing.

我认为，当我们能够获得一点信心时，我们就有更多的自由来发挥作用，并且知道有时候什么都不做。

And then if something's a chronic issue, if my son's chronically blaming me, when things are less heated, I'm going to say to him something in a calm moment.

然后，如果事情是一个长期问题，如果我的儿子长期指责我，当事情不那么激烈时，我会在平静的时刻对他说一些话。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

These are super important and novel approaches to things that I think everybody deals with, kids in the picture or not.

对于我认为每个人都会处理的事情，这些都是非常重要和新颖的方法，无论孩子是否在照片中。

My audience sometimes gets angry with me when I ask very long, extended questions, but- Could I just share with you something I learned about an experiment?

当我问很长的问题时，我的听众有时会对我生气，但是-我可以与你们分享我从实验中学到的一些东西吗？

Because I think-

因为我认为——

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Please

请

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

it blew my mind.

这让我大吃一惊。

I won't take long.

我不会花很长时间。

There's an imaging experiment.

有一个成像实验。

So you put people in a scanner, they image their brain, see which areas are active, fMRI.

所以你把人们放在扫描仪中，他们对他们的大脑进行成像，看看哪些区域是活跃的，功能磁共振成像。

There's a really wild experiment where they bring people in for the scan.

有一个非常疯狂的实验，他们让人们来做扫描。

They don't tell them why they're there, and they tell them they're going to be paid $30, and they set out three $10 bills.

他们没有告诉他们为什么来这里，只是告诉他们将得到 30 美元，然后他们拿出了三张 10 美元的钞票。

Maybe you know this experiment.

也许你知道这个实验。

I don't know.

我不知道。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Mm-mm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And then they go into the scanner, and then they come out, and then the researcher leaves, and there's a discussion, et cetera.

然后他们进入扫描仪，然后出来，然后研究人员离开，然后进行讨论，等等。

And at some point, one of the $10 bills is removed by the researcher.

在某个时刻，研究人员拿走了其中一张 10 美元的钞票。

And people are told at the end of the experiment, "You took one of the $10 bills." And they're like, "No, I didn't," because they didn't.

实验结束时人们被告知：“你拿走了一张 10 美元的钞票。”他们会说，“不，我没有，”因为他们没有。

Nobody says, "You're right." But then they re-image them, and they compare that to a condition in other subjects where people actually did a little sneaky steal during a money game.

没有人说：“你是对的。”但随后他们重新想象它们，并将其与其他主题的情况进行比较，即人们在金钱游戏中实际上做了一点偷偷摸摸的偷窃。

And the same areas of the brain light up that we think are associated with guilt.

我们认为与内疚相关的大脑区域也会亮起。

In other words, if somebody is told that they did something, even if they know they didn't, there are aspects of brain circuitry that reflect a, quote-unquote, "feeling of guilt." It's like it introduces this question about reality.

换句话说，如果有人被告知他们做了某事，即使他们知道自己没有做某事，大脑回路的某些方面也会反映出一种“内疚感”。就好像它引入了这个关于现实的问题。

And so they can know with 100% certainty, you can know with 100% certainty that you did not do something, and yet it starts to introduce these questions about how you gauge reality.

所以他们可以 100% 确定地知道，你可以 100% 确定地知道你没有做某事，但它开始引入这些关于你如何衡量现实的问题。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Mm.

嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Simply because somebody you just met a few minutes earlier, yes, in a position of authority.

仅仅是因为你几分钟前刚认识的某人，是的，处于权威地位。

They're the researcher, you're the subject, et cetera, told you that you did it.

他们是研究人员，你是受试者，等等，告诉你你做到了。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Mm.

嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I think this has huge implications for parent-child relationships, for romantic relationships, workplace relationships, for real bias in the outside world.

我认为这对于亲子关系、恋爱关系、工作场所关系以及外界的真正偏见有着巨大的影响。

You can imagine if you're told your whole life that you're a piece of garbage or that you're part of a bad group or something like this.

你可以想象一下，如果你一生都被告知你是一个垃圾，或者你是坏团体的一员，或者类似的事情。

I'm not trying to get political here.

我并不是想在这里涉及政治。

You could come to believe that at a level that is biological-

你可能会开始相信，在生物学层面上——

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Yes

是的

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

even if cognitively doesn't make sense.

即使在认知上没有意义。

So this is where I think about this challenging boundary between knowing what we know, being a container, staying in our frame, pick your favorite lingo around this, and the fact that words and the emotions of other people really do have the capacity to rewire us on the inside.

因此，这就是我思考这个具有挑战性的界限的地方：了解我们所知道的、作为一个容器、留在我们的框架中、围绕这个选择你最喜欢的行话，以及其他人的言语和情感确实有能力在内部重新连接我们。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

A question I'd have about that study, I'd be really curious if there was variation among subjects, where some people, that guilt part lit up a lot more.

我对这项研究有一个疑问，我真的很好奇受试者之间是否存在差异，有些人的内疚感会更强烈。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Okay, so you reminded me.

好吧，你提醒我了。

So this is the wild part.

所以这是最狂野的部分。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Okay.

好的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

The distribution of-

分布-

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

kind of people who have this-- By the way, folks, there aren't single brain areas for whole emotions.

有这样的人——顺便说一句，伙计们，没有一个大脑区域可以处理整个情绪。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But let's just, for sake of simplicity here, that have the guilt area activated even when they didn't take the money.

但为了简单起见，即使他们没有拿钱，罪恶感区域也会被激活。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

The entire population of subjects doesn't experience that to the same degree.

整个受试者群体并没有同等程度地经历这种情况。

You have these people whom it's very high amplitude response, and others who aren't.

有些人的振幅响应非常高，有些人则不然。

Now, I don't recall, and I need to go back and look at the study if it divided according to male, female, because earlier you said that this tendency-

现在，我不记得了，我需要回去看看这项研究是否按照男性、女性来划分，因为之前你说过这种倾向——

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

I would bet a million dollars that if I got to know those people, the people who really light up have a lot of focus on gazing out and determining their inner reality by what other people think about them.

我愿意花一百万美元打赌，如果我了解这些人，那些真正发光的人会非常注重凝视并通过其他人对他们的看法来确定他们的内心现实。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

And the people who did not light up as much are the people who gaze in and have a deep sense of themselves, even in the face of a lack of validation or even in the face of criticism.

而那些没有那么多光芒的人，是那些凝视自己、对自己有深刻认识的人，即使面对缺乏认可，甚至面对批评。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

I would bet my money on that psychological, kind of, is that a moderator or mediator?

我会把我的钱押在心理上，那是一个主持人还是调解者？

I don't know.

我不知道。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

You would tell me.

你会告诉我的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

So I'd be very curious about that.

所以我对此很好奇。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Great.

太棒了。

Well, I have no skin in the game.

好吧，我没有参与其中。

I didn't run this study and I'll-

我没有进行这项研究，我会-

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

I think it's fascinating.

我认为这很有趣。

I want to know

我想知道

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

go back and check it out.

回去看看吧。

And it's a collection of studies.

这是一系列研究成果。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And I hadn't known about this.

我不知道这件事。

I read the neuroscience literature, but I hadn't known about this.

我读过神经科学文献，但我不知道这一点。

I find it like a complete yes, of course, on the one hand, and also super surprising on the other.

当然，我觉得一方面完全是肯定的，另一方面也非常令人惊讶。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And just, oh, so cool.

只是，哦，太酷了。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

In the sense that it's informative, and it's making me think that some people really need to do the work of paying more attention to other people's emotions and feeling them a little bit more, and other people probably need to do the exact opposite.

从某种意义上说，它提供了丰富的信息，这让我觉得有些人确实需要更多地关注别人的情绪并更多地感受他们，而其他人可能需要做完全相反的事情。

Dr. Becky Kennedy:

贝基·肯尼迪博士：

That's exactly right.

完全正确。

And to me, I say this to people I manage, I think about this in general with adults.

对我来说，我对我管理的人这么说，我一般都会和成年人一起思考这个问题。

I think such an empowering thing as an adult is just to know where you are in any given scale.

我认为作为一个成年人，最有力量的事情就是知道自己在任何给定范围内的位置。

So for me, as a leader, I'm always gas.

所以对我来说，作为一个领导者，我总是很兴奋。

I'm like, "Go, go, go.

我就像，“走，走，走。

We can do this.

我们可以做到这一点。

We can get this accomplished." I'm probably pretty far in that.

我们可以实现这一目标。”我可能在这方面还很远。

And given that, I know it's really important for me to have people around me who sometimes say, "Whoa, let's look at this first." I also know that sometimes if I do have a like, "Maybe I should slow this down," I should really listen to that because that's not right.

鉴于此，我知道身边有时会说“哇，让我们先看看这个”的人对我来说非常重要。我也知道，有时如果我确实有这样的想法，“也许我应该放慢速度”，我真的应该听听，因为那是不对的。

But knowing where I am on a scale is important.

但知道我在规模上的位置很重要。

I talk about someone that I manage who she really needs to be more direct with the people she manages.

我谈论的是我管理的某个人，她确实需要与她管理的人更直接地沟通。

Just sometimes ask questions when she really wants statements and can have a little higher standard.

只是有时当她真正想要陈述并且可以有更高的标准时提出问题。

And I think it's helpful to know where she is on that scale because I remember saying, "I want you to go as far as you can toward the other direction without being disrespectful," because it's almost impossible to do that.

我认为了解她在这个尺度上的位置很有帮助，因为我记得我说过，“我希望你尽可能地朝另一个方向走，而不是不尊重，”因为这几乎是不可能的。

And so I think for adults to know, let's say I gaze in or I more gaze out, neither is better or worse.

所以我认为对于成年人来说，比方说我向内凝视还是更多地向外凝视，两者都没有好坏之分。

Probably, again, mental health and resilience is about having just a lack of rigidity.

也许，心理健康和复原力只是缺乏刚性。

And so to say, what is my starting point?

这么说来，我的出发点是什么？

Like anyone listening, what is my starting point?

和所有听我讲话的人一样，我的出发点是什么？

There's no morality.

没有道德可言。

It's literally not better or worse.

从字面上看，这并没有更好或更糟。

It just gives me information about which direction to experiment with.

它只是为我提供了有关尝试哪个方向的信息。

And I like to make this a concrete experiment.

我喜欢将其作为一个具体的实验。

So let's say you are someone who tends to gaze out before you gaze in, and you're always like, "I can't do this thing I want to do because it would inconvenience someone." I told this story the other day on my Instagram, and people went bananas about it.

假设你是一个习惯先向外看再向内看的人，你总是会说，“我不能做我想做的事情，因为这会给别人带来不便。”前几天我在 Instagram 上讲述了这个故事，人们对此感到疯狂。

I was at the airport, and I got a cup of coffee in the morning.

我早上在机场，喝了一杯咖啡。

And I like my coffee with just a really little bit of milk.

我喜欢加一点牛奶的咖啡。

Right?

正确的？

And I know to specify it if I'm asking someone else.

如果我问别人，我知道要具体说明。

So I went to the counter, and I said, "Hey, can I get a medium coffee?

于是我走到柜台前，说道：“嘿，我可以喝一杯中度咖啡吗？

Not black, just a little bit of milk, pretty close to black." "Sure, no problem." I go, I wait in the line, then it's on the counter.

不是黑色，只是一点点牛奶味，非常接近黑色。” “当然，没问题。”我去，排队等候，然后它就在柜台上。

I pick it up, Becky, and it's light as can be.

我拿起它，贝基，它很轻。

I got back in line.

我又重新排队了。