Dr. Allan Schore: How Relationships Shape Your Brain

艾伦·肖尔博士：人际关系如何塑造你的大脑

2024-11-11 | 官方页面 YouTube 官方音频

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.

欢迎来到休伯曼实验室播客，我们在这里讨论科学和基于科学的日常生活工具。

I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.

我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。

My guest today is Dr. Allan Schore.

今天我的客人是艾伦·肖尔博士。

Dr. Allan Schore is a clinician psychoanalyst, and he's the world expert in how childhood attachment patterns impact our adult relationships, including romantic relationships, friendships, and professional relationships, as well as our relationship to ourselves.

艾伦·肖尔博士是一位临床精神分析师，他是童年依恋模式如何影响我们成年关系（包括浪漫关系、友谊、职业关系以及我们与自己的关系）方面的世界专家。

Dr. Schore is on the faculty in the Department of Psychiatry and Behavioral Sciences at the University of California Los Angeles School of Medicine.

肖尔博士是加州大学洛杉矶分校医学院精神病学和行为科学系的教员。

He is also the author of several important books, including "Right-Brain Psychotherapy" and "Development of the Unconscious Mind." Today's discussion with Dr. Schore is an extremely important one for everyone to hear, to understand themselves, and to understand the people in their lives.

他还是几本重要书籍的作者，包括《右脑心理治疗》和《无意识思维的发展》。今天与肖尔博士的讨论对于每个人来说都是极其重要的，让每个人都能听到、了解自己、了解生活中的人。

Why?

为什么？

Well, we all go through the first 24 months of age.

嗯，我们都会经历出生后的前 24 个月。

You wouldn't be listening to this if you hadn't.

如果你没有的话，你就不会听到这个。

And during that first 24 months of age, your brain develops in a particular way, depending on how you interacted with your primary caretaker, namely your mother, but also your father or other primary caretakers.

在出生后的前 24 个月里，您的大脑以特定的方式发育，具体取决于您与主要看护者（即您的母亲、父亲或其他主要看护者）互动的方式。

In that first 24 months, your right brain and your left brain mediate very specific but different processes.

在最初的 24 个月里，你的右脑和左脑会介导非常具体但不同的过程。

For instance, today you'll learn from Dr. Schore that your right brain circuitry, that is specific circuitries on the right-hand side of your brain, are involved in developing a very specific type of resonance with your primary caretaker that transitions from states of calm and quiescence that you both share simultaneously to states that are considered upstates of excitement, of enthusiasm, of being wide-eyed.

例如，今天你将从肖尔博士那里了解到，你的右脑回路，即你大脑右侧的特定回路，参与与你的主要看护者建立一种非常特定类型的共鸣，这种共鸣从你们同时共享的平静和静止状态转变为被认为是兴奋、热情和睁大眼睛的最高状态。

And the transitioning back and forth between those states, as Dr. Schore explains, is critical to our emotional development and how we form attachments later.

正如肖尔博士所解释的那样，这些状态之间的来回转换对于我们的情感发展以及我们以后如何形成依恋至关重要。

So if you've heard, for instance, of avoidant attachment or anxious attachment or secure attachment, today you'll understand why those particular attachment styles develop, how they translate from early life to your adolescence, teen years, and adulthood, and in fact, how those childhood attachment patterns, which of course we can't control for ourselves, but we can control for our children, how we can modify them through very specific protocols in order to achieve better relations with both others and with ourselves.

因此，如果你听说过回避型依恋、焦虑型依恋或安全型依恋，今天你就会明白为什么这些特定的依恋风格会形成，它们如何从早期生活转化到你的青春期、青少年时期和成年期，事实上，这些童年依恋模式是如何产生的，我们当然无法控制自己，但我们可以为我们的孩子控制，我们如何通过非常具体的协议来修改它们，以便与他人和我们自己建立更好的关系。

It's indeed a very special conversation, and to my knowledge, unlike any other discussions about relationships, neuroscience, or psychology that certainly I have heard before, and I fully expect that for you, it will be as well.

这确实是一次非常特别的对话，据我所知，与我以前听过的任何其他有关人际关系、神经科学或心理学的讨论不同，我完全希望对你来说也是如此。

Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.

在开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。

It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public.

然而，我的愿望和努力的一部分是向公众提供有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本消费者信息。

In keeping with that theme, I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast.

为了与这个主题保持一致，我要感谢今天播客的赞助商。

Our first sponsor is David.

我们的第一位赞助商是大卫。

David makes a protein bar unlike any other.

大卫制作的蛋白质棒与众不同。

It has 28 grams of protein, only 150 calories, and zero grams of sugar.

它含有 28 克蛋白质，仅 150 卡路里，零克糖。

That's right, 28 grams of protein and 75% of its calories come from protein.

没错，28克蛋白质，其75%的热量都来自于蛋白质。

These bars from David also taste amazing.

大卫的这些酒吧味道也很棒。

My favorite flavor is chocolate chip cookie dough, but then again, I also like the chocolate fudge flavored one, and I also like the cake flavored one.

我最喜欢的口味是巧克力饼干面团，但话又说回来，我也喜欢巧克力软糖口味的，我也喜欢蛋糕口味的。

Basically, I like all the flavors.

基本上所有的口味我都喜欢。

They're incredibly delicious.

它们非常美味。

For me personally, I strive to eat mostly whole foods.

就我个人而言，我努力主要吃天然食品。

However, when I'm in a rush or I'm away from home, or I'm just looking for a quick afternoon snack, I often find that I'm looking for a high-quality protein source.

然而，当我很赶时间或者我不在家，或者我只是想吃点下午茶时，我经常发现我正在寻找高质量的蛋白质来源。

With David, I'm able to get 28 grams of protein with the calories of a snack, which makes it very easy to hit my protein goals of one gram of protein per pound of body weight each day.

有了 David，我就能用一份零食的热量获取 28 克蛋白质，这使得我很容易达到每天每磅体重 1 克蛋白质的蛋白质目标。

And it allows me to do that without taking in excess calories.

它使我能够在不摄入过多卡路里的情况下做到这一点。

I typically eat a David bar in the early afternoon or even mid-afternoon if I want to bridge that gap between lunch and dinner.

如果我想弥补午餐和晚餐之间的差距，我通常会在下午早些时候甚至下午中旬吃大卫酒吧。

I like that it's a little bit sweet, so it tastes like a tasty snack, but it's also given me that 28 grams of very high-quality protein with just 150 calories.

我喜欢它有点甜，所以它尝起来像美味的零食，但它也为我提供了 28 克优质蛋白质，热量仅为 150 卡路里。

If you would like to try David, you can go to davidprotein.com/huberman.

如果您想尝试 David，可以访问 david Protein.com/huberman。

Again, the link is davidprotein.com/huberman.

同样，链接是 david Protein.com/huberman。

Today's episode is also brought to us by Eight Sleep.

今天的节目也是八觉给我们带来的。

Eight Sleep makes smart mattress covers with cooling, heating, and sleep tracking capacity.

August Sleep 生产具有冷却、加热和睡眠跟踪功能的智能床垫套。

Now, I've spoken before on this podcast about the critical need for us to get adequate amounts of quality sleep each night.

现在，我之前在这个播客上谈到过我们迫切需要每晚获得充足的优质睡眠。

Now, one of the best ways to ensure a great night's sleep is to ensure that the temperature of your sleeping environment is correct.

现在，确保一夜好眠的最佳方法之一是确保睡眠环境的温度正确。

And that's because in order to fall and stay deeply asleep, your body temperature actually has to drop by about one to three degrees.

这是因为为了入睡并保持深度睡眠，您的体温实际上必须下降约一到三度。

And in order to wake up feeling refreshed and energized, your body temperature actually has to increase about one to three degrees.

为了醒来时感到神清气爽、精力充沛，您的体温实际上必须升高约一到三度。

Eight Sleep makes it very easy to control the temperature of your sleeping environment by allowing you to program the temperature of your mattress cover at the beginning, middle, and end of the night.

八睡眠让您可以轻松控制睡眠环境的温度，您可以在晚上开始、中间和结束时对床垫罩的温度进行编程。

I've been sleeping on an Eight Sleep mattress cover for nearly four years now, and it has completely transformed and improved the quality of my sleep.

我已经睡在八睡眠床垫罩上近四年了，它彻底改变并改善了我的睡眠质量。

Eight Sleep recently launched their newest generation of the pod cover called the Pod 4 Ultra.

八睡眠最近推出了他们最新一代的 Pod 4 Ultra。

The Pod 4 Ultra has improved cooling and heating capacity.

Pod 4 Ultra 改进了制冷和制热能力。

I find that very useful because I like to make the bed really cool at the beginning of the night, even colder in the middle of the night, and warm as I wake up.

我发现这非常有用，因为我喜欢让床在夜刚开始时非常凉爽，在半夜更冷，而在我醒来时却很温暖。

That's what gives me the most slow-wave sleep and rapid eye movement sleep.

这就是给我最慢波睡眠和快速动眼睡眠的原因。

It also has snoring detection that will automatically lift your head a few degrees to improve your airflow and stop your snoring.

它还具有打鼾检测功能，可自动将您的头部抬起几度，以改善气流并停止打鼾。

If you'd like to try an Eight Sleep mattress cover, you can go to eightsleep.com/huberman to access their Black Friday offer right now.

如果您想尝试八睡眠床垫套，您可以立即访问八睡眠.com/huberman 获取他们的黑色星期五优惠。

With this Black Friday discount, you can save up to $600 on their Pod 4 Ultra.

通过这个黑色星期五折扣，您购买 Pod 4 Ultra 最多可节省 600 美元。

This is Eight Sleep's biggest sale of the year.

这是“Eight Sleep”今年最大的一次促销活动。

Eight Sleep currently ships to the USA, Canada, UK, select countries in the EU, and Australia.

八睡眠目前运往美国、加拿大、英国、欧盟部分国家和澳大利亚。

Again, that's eightsleep.com/huberman.

再说一遍，这是八睡眠.com/huberman。

And now for my discussion with Dr. Allan Schore.

现在我与艾伦·肖尔博士进行讨论。

Dr. Allan Schore, welcome.

艾伦·肖尔博士，欢迎光临。

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

Nice to be here.

很高兴来到这里。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

To kick things off, I have a simple question, which is, what percentage of our thinking and our behavior do you think is governed by our conscious mind versus our unconscious mind?

首先，我有一个简单的问题，那就是，你认为我们的思维和行为中受有意识思维和无意识思维支配的比例是多少？

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

You understand that I was trained in psychoanalysis, and I'm a psychodynamic psychotherapist in addition to a scientist and neuroscientist.

你知道我接受过精神分析方面的培训，除了科学家和神经科学家之外，我还是一名心理动力学治疗师。

So the unconscious has been something that I have been aware of and have been writing about, and it's a central part of what I'm writing about to this day.

因此，无意识是我已经意识到并一直在写的东西，也是我迄今为止所写内容的核心部分。

Essentially, as we're going to see, I'm suggesting that the right brain is the unconscious mind.

从本质上讲，正如我们将要看到的，我认为右脑是无意识的思维。

So when you ask how much of things really are conscious and how much are unconscious, I'm also looking at that neurobiologically in terms of how much activity is going on in the right brain.

因此，当你问有多少事物真正是有意识的，有多少是无意识的时，我也会从神经生物学的角度来看待右脑中正在进行的活动有多少。

The right brain is always processing information, always, especially emotional information, at levels beneath conscious awareness, especially when you're in an emotional interaction.

右脑总是在低于意识意识的水平上处理信息，尤其是情感信息，尤其是当你处于情感互动时。

So how much really are things conscious?

那么事物到底有多少意识呢？

I would say that when it comes to the basic motivations of why we do what we do, 95% to 90% of that is unconscious.

我想说，当谈到我们为什么做我们所做的事情的基本动机时，95%到90%是无意识的。

And there has been data to show that that is the case, that most, although we think that our conscious mind literally is making all of these decisions, underneath that, at all points in time, the unconscious is operating.

有数据表明，情况确实如此，尽管我们认为我们的意识实际上正在做出所有这些决定，但在这之下，在所有时间点，无意识都在运作。

It used to be thought that the unconscious only comes forth in dreams at night.

过去人们认为无意识只会在晚上的梦中出现。

Well, we now know that this right brain is reading unconscious communications between us.

好吧，我们现在知道右脑正在读取我们之间无意识的交流。

Communications, "Is it safe to be with you?" "Do you understand what I'm saying?" Really the critical ones, always operating and much more important than we had thought itself.

通讯，“和你在一起安全吗？” “你明白我在说什么吗？”确实是关键的，总是在运作，而且比我们想象的更重要。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Let's start thinking about and talking about this right brain versus left brain thing.

让我们开始思考和讨论右脑与左脑的问题。

And what I'd like to know is, when we come into this world, how much lateralization, as we call it, how much right versus left brain specialization is there at the time when we exit the womb, when we take our first breath?

我想知道的是，当我们来到这个世界时，当我们离开子宫时，当我们第一次呼吸时，我们所说的偏侧化程度，右脑与左脑的专业化程度有多少？

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

The answer to that is pretty clear at this point in time.

目前这个问题的答案已经非常明确了。

And incidentally, some of these questions about the unconscious are provided by neurobiology.

顺便说一句，其中一些关于无意识的问题是由神经生物学提供的。

But essentially, here's what we know.

但本质上，这就是我们所知道的。

There were discoveries that were being made in the '80s and the '90s about the human brain growth spurt.

上世纪 80 年代和 90 年代出现了关于人类大脑突增生长的发现。

The human brain growth spurt occurs from the last trimester of pregnancy through the second until the third year of life.

人类大脑的突增期发生在怀孕的最后三个月到生命的第二年到第三年。

All of that time is a period of right hemisphere dominance.

所有这段时间都是右半球占主导地位的时期。

And actually, there have been six major studies in neuroscience laboratories around the world that have shown that the right hemisphere is dominant during that period of time.

事实上，世界各地神经科学实验室的六项重大研究表明，在那段时间里，右半球占主导地位。

In fact, a recent study in Mexico, where they looked at two to three months, six to eight months, 9 to 12 months.

事实上，墨西哥最近的一项研究考察了两到三个月、六到八个月、9 到 12 个月。

At each point in time, they noticed that the right hemisphere was accelerating its growth.

在每个时间点，他们都注意到右半球正在加速生长。

The left was not.

左边则不然。

So the right is dominant very early.

所以右派很早就占据了主导地位。

In fact, there's evidence to show that even in utero, there is a right lateralization.

事实上，有证据表明，即使在子宫内，也存在右侧化。

Now, remember, the lateralization is part of all systems, and what is lateralized is not only the cortical areas, but the subcortical areas, et cetera.

现在，请记住，偏侧化是所有系统的一部分，并且偏侧化的不仅是皮质区域，还有皮质下区域等等。

So if you take, let's say, the amygdala, there's a difference between the right amygdala and the left amygdala, and again, the right hemisphere.

因此，如果你拿杏仁核来说，右杏仁核和左杏仁核以及右半球之间存在差异。

So the answer to that is very clear now.

所以现在答案已经很清楚了。

The left hemisphere does not come into a growth spurt until the end of the second year and into the third year.

直到第二年末和第三年，左半球才会出现突增。

Up until that point, which means everything about attachment is about right brain dynamics.

直到那时，这意味着关于依恋的一切都与右脑动力学有关。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Does that mean that everything about attachment is occurring in the first 24 months?

这是否意味着所有与依恋有关的事情都发生在最初的 24 个月内？

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

Yes, absolutely.

是的，绝对是。

And it's occurring during that brain growth spurt while the right hemisphere.

它发生在右半球的大脑快速生长期间。

So essentially what you have now is that in the baby's brain, that baby's brain is now in a right brain growth spurt, and the mother now is shaping that baby's right brain through the attachment mechanism, through her regulation of that brain.

所以本质上你现在所拥有的是，在婴儿的大脑中，婴儿的大脑现在正处于右脑生长突增阶段，而母亲现在正在通过依恋机制，通过她对大脑的调节来塑造婴儿的右脑。

So she's help shaping that brain for better or for worse.

所以她帮助塑造大脑，无论是好是坏。

And incidentally, that means also not only secure attachments, but also the matter, because it's for better or worse, it's also the early evolution of insecure attachments.

顺便说一句，这不仅意味着安全依恋，而且还意味着问题，因为无论好坏，这也是不安全依恋的早期演变。

And we'll talk about what those insecure attachments are.

我们将讨论那些不安全的依恋是什么。

All of those really are being shaped by the right.

所有这些实际上都是由右翼塑造的。

What's more, there's evidence to show that it goes right hemisphere, then it goes left hemisphere, and then it goes back into left and back and right along the lifespan.

更重要的是，有证据表明，在整个生命周期中，它会先进入右半球，然后进入左半球，然后再回到左半球、后右半球。

So although you have a tremendous growth spurt, more than any other time in the first two and a half, three years of life, think now about adolescence, where you have another growth spurt.

因此，尽管你在生命的前两年半、三年中经历了巨大的生长突增，比任何其他时间都多，但现在想想青春期，你会经历另一次生长突增。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Is adolescence marked by a right brain growth spurt?

青春期的标志是右脑突增吗？

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

It's marked by the initially right, and then it goes left.

它的标记是最初向右，然后向左。

So essentially, with puberty and with the onset of testosterone and androgens and estrogens, it shifts now into another growth spurt at that point in time.

因此，从本质上讲，随着青春期以及睾丸激素、雄激素和雌激素的开始，它现在会在那个时间点转变为另一个生长突增。

Which means, just for the record, now the attachment relationship, which is essentially going to be about how we regulate our emotion, because I'll be talking about attachment is about the communication of emotions, right brain to right brain in the first two years of life, and about the regulation of emotions in that same period of time, et cetera.

这意味着，只是为了记录，现在的依恋关系，本质上是关于我们如何调节我们的情绪，因为我将谈论依恋是关于情感的交流，在生命的头两年里右脑到右脑，以及在同一时期的情绪调节，等等。

But ultimately, that leads to the strategies that we have for affect regulation.

但最终，这导致了我们的影响监管策略。

And attachment is essentially affect regulation.

而执着本质上是影响调节。

Affect communication and affect regulation.

影响沟通，影响监管。

So now what you're looking at, if you have a mother and an infant, they are communicating with each other, right brain to right brain.

现在你看到的是，如果你有一位母亲和一个婴儿，他们正在互相交流，右脑对右脑。

And how are they doing it?

他们是如何做到的？

By face, voice, and gesture.

通过面部、声音和手势。

The mother is now reading the expressions of the baby's face, the visual, the auditory The prosody of the voice, and then the tactile.

妈妈现在正在读宝宝的面部表情、视觉、听觉、声音韵律，然后是触觉。

So she's picking up these kinds of communications that are coming out of that baby, tactile, gestural, visual, and she's now picking up those communications now.

所以她正在接收来自婴儿的这些类型的交流，触觉、手势、视觉，而她现在正在接收这些交流。

She's resonating with those communications, and now she is going to regulate those communications.

她正在与这些沟通产生共鸣，现在她将规范这些沟通。

And that's essentially what it's about.

这就是它的本质。

In the end, what we have is strategies of affect regulation.

最后，我们拥有的是影响监管的策略。

How we regulate affect for the rest of our lives depends upon the attachment relationship of the first two years, which is a right brain to right brain connection.

我们如何在余生中调节情感取决于头两年的依恋关系，即右脑与右脑的连接。

Now, there have been hundreds, thousands of studies on attachment, as you're well aware of at this point in time.

现在，正如您现在所熟知的那样，已经有数百、数千项关于依恋的研究。

But the key to it, literally, I began this in 1994 with my first book, "Affect Regulation and the Origin of the Self: The Neurobiology of Emotional Development." Okay.

但关键是，从字面上看，我在 1994 年开始写我的第一本书，《情感调节和自我的起源：情绪发展的神经生物学》。好的。

Remember, Bowlby was studying attachment in the '60s, but the problem of emotion really was not picked up, and early on when they were looking at attachment, they were looking at behaviors, and they were looking at cognition.

请记住，鲍尔比在 60 年代研究依恋，但情绪问题确实没有被重视，早期当他们研究依恋时，他们正在研究行为，他们正在研究认知。

So if you know the attachment literature, remember the strange situation?

那么如果你了解附件文献，还记得那个奇怪的情况吗？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah, just to remind listeners, I've talked about this on previous podcasts.

是的，只是为了提醒听众，我在之前的播客中谈到过这一点。

I'll provide a link to that segment.

我将提供该部分的链接。

But a strange situation can briefly be described as parent, and usually mother, and child come into the clinic.

但奇怪的情况可以简单地描述为父母，通常是母亲和孩子来到诊所。

They deliberately leave the baby with a caretaker.

他们故意把婴儿交给看护人。

This is sort of a pseudo-daycare type situation.

这是一种伪日托类型的情况。

Mother leaves, and then there's a lot of attention paid to how the infant or young child, toddler, whatever age they were looking at, reacts.

母亲离开后，人们开始关注婴儿或幼儿、幼儿，无论他们的年龄如何，他们的反应如何。

Are they nervous?

他们紧张吗？

Are they able to engage in play?

他们能够参与游戏吗？

And then they look at the return of the mother and how they react to that.

然后他们会观察母亲的归来以及他们对此的反应。

And there was this classification of behaviors along the lines of secure attached, insecure attached.

行为有安全依恋和不安全依恋的分类。

There was a categorization of an amalgam of different things, these so-called D babies that were kind of a bunch of other things.

对不同事物的混合体进行了分类，这些所谓的 D 婴儿是一堆其他事物的集合。

And this is where we hear a lot nowadays about secure, insecure, and anxious, and avoidant adult relationship styles.

这就是我们现在听到的很多关于安全、不安全、焦虑和回避的成人关系风格的地方。

There's been a lot written about that and talked about that.

关于这一点已经有很多文章和讨论。

We don't have time to go into all that in detail, but this is what Dr. Shore is referring to.

我们没有时间详细讨论所有这些，但这就是肖尔博士所指的。

I'm really intrigued by this idea that there's a right brain, left brain dominance that takes place throughout the lifespan.

我对这个想法很感兴趣，即在整个生命周期中，右脑和左脑都占主导地位。

Has it been carefully mapped into adulthood such that we can say as a function of chronological age, when somebody hits their early 30s, that they're more right brain or left brain dominant?

它是否被仔细地映射到成年期，以便我们可以说，作为实际年龄的函数，当一个人30岁出头时，他们的右脑或左脑更占主导地位？

Or is it more developmental milestones as opposed to chronological age?

或者它是否比实际年龄更具发育里程碑？

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

I think it's developmental milestones there.

我认为这是发展的里程碑。

I'm thinking that, remember Erik Erikson talking about different stages of life, and how you have a hierarchy here, literally, because the attachment is a hierarchy.

我在想，记得埃里克·埃里克森（Erik Erikson）谈论过人生的不同阶段，以及这里如何有一个等级制度，从字面上看，因为依恋是一个等级制度。

It starts subcortical, and then it goes to cortical.

它开始皮质下，然后进入皮质。

So what he said was that there are changes along the line, and that it fits with that.

所以他说的是，沿线有一些变化，而且它符合这一点。

So the attachment relationship is there at later points in time, and really what it does, it guides us through our relationships with other people.

因此，依恋关系会在稍后的时间点出现，而它的真正作用是引导我们处理与他人的关系。

It certainly guides us through strategies of what to do with stress.

它确实指导我们制定应对压力的策略。

And that way that we deal with that stress is now going to depend upon how the mother is regulating that baby's stress during a critical period.

现在，我们处理压力的方式将取决于母亲在关键时期如何调节婴儿的压力。

Now, the term critical period is an important one here, too.

现在，“关键期”一词在这里也很重要。

Because again, at the first two years of life, it's the right brain is in that critical period there.

因为在生命的头两年，右脑正处于那个关键时期。

But that leads to strategies of affect regulation, of how we deal with stress, but also how we deal with novel situations, and again, all of it has to do with emotion.

但这导致了情感调节的策略，我们如何处理压力，以及我们如何处理新情况的策略，而且所有这些都与情绪有关。

Now, I jumped there because I talked about there was attachment models move from behavior to cognition to emotion.

现在，我跳到那里是因为我谈到了从行为到认知再到情感的依恋模型。

And essentially, the first book that I wrote was on the neurobiology of emotional development.

从本质上讲，我写的第一本书是关于情绪发展的神经生物学的。

And in 1994, when I came out with that book, that was about the same time that Antonio Damasio came out with his book, and really, it was not until the mid-'90s, partly because of the neuroimaging, which was coming during, you remember the decade of the brain, that emotion really now became a matter that science was looking at for the first time.

1994 年，当我出版那本书时，安东尼奥·达马西奥 (Antonio Damasio) 出版了他的书，实际上，直到 90 年代中期，部分原因是神经影像学的出现，你还记得大脑的十年，情感现在才真正成为科学第一次研究的问题。

The point that I'm making here is that attachment is not psychological, it's psychobiological, and there was always this rift between the psychological and the biological.

我在这里要表达的观点是，依恋不是心理的，而是心理生物学的，而且心理和生物学之间总是存在这种裂痕。

But when you're talking about emotions, you're not only talking about psychological events, you're talking about physiological events that are associated with those events.

但是，当您谈论情绪时，您不仅在谈论心理事件，而且在谈论与这些事件相关的生理事件。

For example, the physiology of the stress response, the physiology of the sympathetic nervous system, which is energy expending, and the parasympathetic nervous system, which is energy conserving.

例如，应激反应的生理学、能量消耗的交感神经系统的生理学和能量守恒的副交感神经系统的生理学。

So the mother is a regulator of that.

所以母亲是这方面的调节者。

And the way that she's a regulator of that baby is that she's tracking that baby's arousal levels.

她作为婴儿的调节者的方式是跟踪婴儿的唤醒水平。

She's tracking that baby's emotions as they change in time, moment to moment.

她正在追踪婴儿的情绪每时每刻的变化。

And then she's synchronizing with that, and that allows her now to be able to regulate it.

然后她与它同步，这让她现在能够调节它。

So we're going from recognizing that baby's emotions, synchronizing with those emotions, and then being an affect regulator.

因此，我们首先要认识婴儿的情绪，与这些情绪同步，然后成为情绪调节者。

So the mother, who is securely attached now, is a good affect regulator of that baby.

因此，现在安全依恋的母亲是婴儿的良好情感调节者。

She not only is an affect regulator of the negative states of the baby, because negative states and negative affects are adaptive by definition.

她不仅是婴儿消极状态的情感调节者，因为根据定义，消极状态和消极情感是适应性的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Baby cries, mother nurses baby.

宝宝哭了，妈妈给宝宝喂奶。

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

You bet.

你打赌。

And that's the signal she's sending there, literally, and the mother then intuitively knows.

这就是她向那里发送的信号，字面上的意思，然后母亲直觉地知道。

She's not using her left brain to figure out what to do with that baby.

她没有用她的左脑来弄清楚如何处理那个孩子。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm.

嗯。

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

She's doing it intuitively, and intuition is a right brain function.

她凭直觉做这件事，而直觉是右脑的功能。

And she's regulating that baby Implicitly.

她正在暗中调节那个婴儿。

Now, let's go back over implicit to explicit.

现在，让我们回到隐式到显式。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

Okay?

好吧？

You're seeing a lot now about the shift from explicit to implicit.

你现在看到了很多关于从显式到隐式的转变。

Something that is implicit goes on at levels beneath awareness.

一些隐含的东西在意识之下发生。

So when she is intuitively knowing what to do, that right now this baby is down-regulating too much, and she wants to bring that baby up, she'll now use her tone of voice literally to raise that baby up into a more excited state.

因此，当她直觉地知道该怎么做时，现在这个婴儿的下调太多，而她想要抚养那个婴儿，她现在会用她的语气字面意思来让那个婴儿进入更兴奋的状态。

Or if the baby is dysregulated, sympathetic hyperarousal, she knows how to down-regulate that.

或者，如果婴儿失调，交感神经过度兴奋，她知道如何下调这种情况。

And she'll down-regulate that by her facial expression, by the tone of her voice.

她会通过她的面部表情和语气来减弱这种影响。

Now her tone of her voice is now trying to soften and to quiet down.

现在她的语气正试图变得柔和、平静下来。

So essentially what attachment is, is the regulator of arousal, of emotional arousal, and that emotional arousal also includes the autonomic nervous system.

所以从本质上讲，依恋是唤醒、情绪唤醒的调节器，而情绪唤醒也包括自主神经系统。

So what we have here is the regulation attachment of the limbic system, the emotion processing limbic system, positive and negative, and the autonomic nervous system.

所以我们这里有边缘系统的调节附件，情绪处理边缘系统，积极和消极，以及自主神经系统。

So they are limbic autonomic circuits, and those circuits are in the right brain.

所以它们是边缘自主神经回路，这些回路位于右脑。

Now on this matter, as it turns out, the right brain has a control system of attachment.

现在在这个问题上，事实证明，右脑有一个依恋控制系统。

Now, since the right brain is there first before the left, because there's no speech at two years, she's regulating this baby at two months, six months, 12 months.

现在，由于右脑先于左脑出现，因为两岁时还不会说话，所以她在两个月、六个月、十二个月时对这个婴儿进行调节。

All of it is occurring non-verbal.

所有这一切都是非语言发生的。

She's doing this implicitly, not explicitly.

她是含蓄地而不是明确地这样做的。

The left hemisphere processes explicit stimuli, conscious stimuli, rational stimuli.

左半球处理外显刺激、有意识刺激、理性刺激。

That's not there.

那不在那里。

Everything is being done implicitly, beneath levels of awareness, and again, that allows her to be the regulation.

一切都在潜移默化地进行，在意识层面之下，这又让她成为了规则。

So attachment theory, my attachment theory, regulation theory is essentially attachment is interactive regulation.

所以依恋理论，我的依恋理论，调节理论本质上是依恋是互动调节。

Stay with me now.

现在就留在我身边吧。

Ultimately, what we have are two forms of regulation.

最终，我们拥有两种形式的监管。

What we're doing is we're regulating the self, right?

我们所做的就是调节自我，对吗？

It's the subjective self which is in the right hemisphere.

这是位于右半球的主观自我。

The left is objective self.

左边是客观的自我。

The left is verbal, conscious.

左边是言语的、有意识的。

She's regulating the right hemisphere, and she's doing that, again, by tracking the baby's emotional states, as I said.

她正在调节右半球，正如我所说，她再次通过跟踪婴儿的情绪状态来做到这一点。

But again, what the child learns now from that is that her right brain is becoming more and more complex from the first year to the second year.

但同样，孩子现在从中学到的是，从第一年到第二年，她的右脑变得越来越复杂。

And it's going to turn out some of these functions that are more complex are being also stimulated by the mother.

事实证明，其中一些更复杂的功能也会受到母亲的刺激。

And ultimately, by the end of the second year, that baby can regulate its emotional states by itself in its right brain.

最终，到第二年年底，婴儿可以通过右脑自行调节情绪状态。

But we have two forms of regulation.

但我们有两种形式的监管。

You can regulate your states by auto-regulation, by yourself.

你可以通过自我调节来调节你的状态。

In other words, you're not with other human beings at this point in time.

换句话说，此时你并没有和其他人在一起。

You have an efficient right brain which can regulate.

你有一个高效的右脑，可以进行调节。

And incidentally, what we're talking about here is the regulation of the amygdala by the right orbital frontal cortex.

顺便说一句，我们在这里讨论的是右眼眶额叶皮层对杏仁核的调节。

The right orbital frontal cortex is the highest level of the right hemisphere.

右眶额皮质是右半球的最高层。

It also has the most sophisticated and the latest evolving parts of the brain are in the right frontal cortex, not the left.

大脑中最复杂和最新进化的部分也位于右额叶皮层，而不是左额叶皮层。

The right orbital frontal, not the left dorsolateral cortex, is the key to this.

右眶额叶，而不是左背外侧皮层，是其中的关键。

So what we learn from attachment here again, both in a secure attachment, how to auto-regulate your emotions when you're apart from people.

所以我们再次从依恋中学到了什么，无论是在安全依恋中，还是当你与人分开时如何自动调节你的情绪。

In other words, you go to a quiet place at this point in time, you're regulating yourself down, so to speak, and you're getting a nice regulation of the amygdala by the right orbital frontal cortex, or interactive regulation, which is now you go to another human being.

换句话说，此时你去了一个安静的地方，你正在自我调节，可以这么说，你通过右眼眶额叶皮层对杏仁核进行了很好的调节，或者说互动调节，这就是你现在去另一个人那里。

We go to another human being under times of stress in an optimal situation.

我们在压力大的时候，在最佳的情况下去找另一个人。

We also go to another human being to share joy states.

我们也会去找另一个人分享喜悦的状态。

And remember, I said that the mother is up-regulating joy states and down-regulating negative states.

请记住，我说过母亲正在上调快乐状态并下调负面状态。

So in a secure attachment, you have somebody now who can do both.

因此，在安全依恋中，你现在有了一个可以同时做到这两点的人。

In certain forms of insecure attachment, that's not going to happen.

在某些形式的不安全依恋中，这种情况是不会发生的。

The avoidant attachment is always auto-regulating his states.

回避型依恋总是自动调节他的状态。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So, just so I'm clear, in avoidant attachment, the baby, which is now, let's say, two and a half years old, three years old-

所以，我很清楚，在回避型依恋中，婴儿，现在，比方说，两岁半，三岁了——

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

That's already a toddler.

那已经是个小孩了。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

That's a toddler, excuse me.

那是个小孩，请原谅。

The toddler is auto-regulating more often than seeking another to help do coordinated regulation.

幼儿更频繁地进行自我调节，而不是寻求其他人来帮助进行协调调节。

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

Yeah.

是的。

What I'm saying in this is secure attachment, and let me back up a step on that.

我在这里所说的是安全依恋，让我在这一点上退一步。

The key to attachment is psychobiological attunement.

依恋的关键是心理生物协调。

You know the phrase.

你知道这句话。

Notice psychobiological attunement, that the mother is regulating not only the psychological aspect, but literally is regulating the physiological aspect of that, which means that she's regulating the autonomic nervous system.

请注意心理生物学协调，母亲不仅在调节心理方面，而且在字面上调节生理方面，这意味着她正在调节自主神经系统。

Think about Porges' social engagement system.

想想波吉斯的社交参与系统。

What we have here is the capacity in secure attachment, and then the second part of the attachment is repair.

我们这里拥有的是安全依恋的能力，然后依恋的第二部分是修复。

Now, let me go back psychobiological attunement, sometimes she misattunes.

现在，让我回到心理生物协调，有时她会失调。

Sometimes she misreads the baby's states for one reason or another.

有时她会因为某种原因误读婴儿的状态。

What happens in a good enough caregiving is that the mother who was misattuned now re-attunes to that baby, now re-synchronizes with that baby, now reconnects right brains to right brains with that baby.

在足够好的照顾中会发生的事情是，以前不协调的母亲现在重新与那个婴儿协调，现在与那个婴儿重新同步，现在重新将右脑与那个婴儿的右脑连接起来。

And that repair is a key here.

修复是这里的关键。

So you have misattunement and repair.

所以你有失调和修复。

So the key to a secure attachment is not only psychobiological attunement, but it's also the repair of the misattunement.

因此，安全依恋的关键不仅是心理生物学的协调，而且是对失调的修复。

And that allows the baby now to expand that situation and being able to use that now to auto-regulate the case.

这使得婴儿现在能够扩大这种情况，并能够利用它来自动调节情况。

That's a secure.

那是一个安全的。

But if she misattunes, for example, and doesn't repair, or she's not that good at psychobiologically attuning, let's say as an avoidant mother, because avoidant personalities are uncomfortable with real closeness.

但是，例如，如果她失调，并且不修复，或者她不擅长心理生物学协调，比如说作为回避型母亲，因为回避型人格对真正的亲密感到不舒服。

Another term for an avoidant personality is a dismissive personality.

回避型人格的另一个术语是轻蔑型人格。

And what they are dismissing is the need for interactive regulation, so they're always auto-regulating.

他们忽视的是互动监管的必要性，因此他们总是自动监管。

Or you have another time in which you have another form of attachment, an insecure anxious attachment, where that person is always interactively regulating or is always going to others to help them regulate, but can't auto-regulate.

或者你有另一个时候，你有另一种形式的依恋，一种不安全的焦虑依恋，那个人总是互动地调节，或者总是去找别人帮助他们调节，但不能自动调节。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

I think this is a really important thing to hover on for a moment, just given some context about hundreds of thousands of questions that I get about avoidant versus secure versus anxious attachment, and you stated it all incredibly clearly, but I want to make sure that we double-click on this, as they say.

我认为这是一件非常重要的事情，值得暂时停留，只是考虑到我收到的关于回避型依恋、安全型依恋和焦虑型依恋的数十万个问题的背景，你把这一切都说得非常清楚，但我想确保我们双击这个，正如他们所说。

The idea that if a child and mother did not coordinate their autonomic regulation-

如果孩子和母亲不协调他们的自主调节——

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

Use the word synchronize.

使用“同步”这个词。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Synchronize.

同步。

Do not synchronize their autonomic regulation in the proper way, that there would be a non-secure attachment, I'm using that language for a specific reason, makes total sense.

不要以正确的方式同步他们的自主调节，否则会有不安全的附件，我出于特定原因使用该语言，这是完全有道理的。

But this idea that if the child, the baby, which is a toddler at three or so, is avoidant, then they're going to have to learn to auto-regulate, and they're going to seek others to help them regulate less than a secure attachment.

但这种想法认为，如果孩子、婴儿，也就是三岁左右的幼儿，是回避型的，那么他们将不得不学会自我调节，并且他们将寻求其他人来帮助他们调节不安全的依恋。

And the anxious attached baby, toddler, adolescent, adult will do just the opposite.

而焦虑型依恋的婴儿、幼儿、青少年、成人则会做相反的事情。

They're going to have a hard time self-soothing, but they are going to feel, let's say these might be the kind of people that don't well tolerate a text message not getting responded to-

他们将很难自我安慰，但他们会觉得，比方说，这些人可能不太能容忍短信得不到回复——

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

Yes

是的

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

at a very short latency-

在很短的延迟时间内-

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

Yes

是的

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

for instance.

例如。

And we all-

而我们大家——

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

Yes

是的

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

depending on context, we have this, right?

根据上下文，我们有这个，对吧？

But I find this to be incredibly important, which is why I wanted to go back through it.

但我发现这非常重要，这就是为什么我想回顾一下它。

Because I think nowadays we hear so much about anxious and securely attached, avoidant, et cetera, in the context of adult romantic relationships.

因为我认为现在我们在成人恋爱关系中听到了很多关于焦虑、安全依恋、回避等等的说法。

But I hope that people are realizing the truly incredible importance of your work, which is that the same circuitry and mechanisms that are used to establish infant-mother attachment are repurposed later in life for adult relationships.

但我希望人们能够意识到你的工作真正令人难以置信的重要性，那就是用于建立婴儿与母亲依恋的相同电路和机制在以后的生活中被重新用于成人关系。

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I think that when we hear that, it makes sense, but I don't think that most people know that.

我认为当我们听到这句话时，这是有道理的，但我认为大多数人都不知道这一点。

They assume somehow that there's circuitry in our brain and body for adult romantic attachment that is distinct from our attachment circuitry that we had with our parent.

他们以某种方式假设，我们的大脑和身体中存在用于成人浪漫依恋的回路，该回路与我们与父母的依恋回路不同。

And I think your work speaks-

我认为你的作品说明了——

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

否

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

very loudly that they are, in fact, the exact same circuitry.

非常大声地宣称它们实际上是完全相同的电路。

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

All of this is happening in the right brain.

所有这一切都发生在右脑中。

And incidentally, attachment relationship is retained as an autobiographical memory in the first two years of life, even before.

顺便说一句，依恋关系在生命的头两年甚至更早的时候就作为自传体记忆保留下来。

There's a left hemisphere.

有一个左半球。

And that under later stress situation, that will be the key there.

在以后的压力情况下，这将是关键。

Incidentally, the attachment, whether it's secure or insecure, is also the key to positive and negative transferences.

顺便说一句，依恋，无论是安全的还是不安全的，也是积极和消极移情的关键。

That's where it's communicated.

这就是沟通的地方。

Let me go back and say a little bit more about one other form of attachment, and that you mentioned the type D attachment.

让我回过头来多谈谈另一种形式的依恋，你提到了 D 型依恋。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

The D babies.

D宝宝们。

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Disorganized.

杂乱无章。

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

These are disorganized babies.

这些都是杂乱无章的婴儿。

So you have secure, you have two types of organized insecures, okay?

所以你有安全感，你有两种类型的有组织的不安全感，好吗？

The avoidant and the anxious.

回避型和焦虑型。

And then you have a disorganized, disoriented one.

然后你就会看到一个杂乱无章、迷失方向的人。

Now, ultimately, that person, under stress, is not able to auto-regulate or to interact and regulate.

现在，最终，这个人在压力下无法自动调节或互动和调节。

So what they will do at that point, I'm now thinking about, let's say PTSD or various borderline personality disorders, that person now literally can't go to the other for auto-regulation or interactive regulation.

所以我现在正在考虑，他们在那个时候会做什么，比如说创伤后应激障碍（PTSD）或各种边缘性人格障碍，那个人现在实际上不能去另一个人那里进行自我调节或互动调节。

That person now will use a defense, literally, to shut down the attachment system, and that's exactly what dissociation is.

这个人现在会使用防御，从字面上看，来关闭依恋系统，而这正是解离的含义。

Dissociation just shuts down the attachment.

分离只会关闭依恋。

So, in the anxious attachment, you have a continual activation of the attachment system, which means a continual activation of the right hemisphere all of the time.

因此，在焦虑依恋中，你的依恋系统会持续激活，这意味着右半球始终持续激活。

And in the secure, dismissive attachment, you have a deactivation of the attachment system, which would be a deactivation of the right brain.

在安全的、轻蔑的依恋中，你的依恋系统会失活，这就是右脑的失活。

And so in the end, a secure attachment is an efficient one, but it's an efficient one that can switch back and forth between that.

所以最后，安全附件是一种有效的附件，而且是一种可以在这之间来回切换的有效附件。

Not only that, it also, at a later point in time when the left comes online, it can also communicate much better with the left hemisphere than without that.

不仅如此，在稍后的时间点，当左半球上线时，它也可以比没有左半球更好地与左半球进行交流。

Regulation theory is essentially a theory of the development of the self in an optimal situation.

调节理论本质上是一种关于自我在最佳情境下发展的理论。

But it also talks about the psychopathogenesis of the self, the early origins of psychiatric disorders and personality disorders.

但它也谈到了自我的心理发病机制、精神疾病和人格障碍的早期起源。

And I'm thinking about not only schizophrenia and depression, but I'm now thinking about narcissistic personality disorders, borderline personality disorders.

我不仅在考虑精神分裂症和抑郁症，现在还在考虑自恋型人格障碍、边缘型人格障碍。

Maybe we'll come back to more on that.

也许我们会回来更多地讨论这一点。

And then ultimately, the repair of the self.

最终，修复自我。

So regulation theory is about the development of the self, the psychopathogenesis of the self, and then the repair of the self.

所以调节理论是关于自我的发展，自我的精神病理学，然后是自我的修复。

Because these attachment situations are now going to play out under all periods of stress.

因为这些依恋情况现在将在所有压力时期发挥作用。

The right hemisphere is dominant for the stress response, the right hemisphere is dominant for the sympathetic nervous system, the energy expending, and the right hemisphere is dominant for the parasympathetic nervous system.

右半球主导应激反应，右半球主导交感神经系统、能量消耗，右半球主导副交感神经系统。

So again, all of that will play out at later points under stress.

再说一次，所有这些都会在以后的压力下发挥作用。

And when those systems break down, that's when the patient will form symptomatologies and come into therapy.

当这些系统崩溃时，患者就会形成症状并接受治疗。

And in therapy, the therapist now, the key...

在治疗中，现在的治疗师，关键......

I'm jumping here.

我在这里跳。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

No, this is great.

不，这太棒了。

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

Because there's a right brain to right brain interaction between the mother and the infant.

因为母亲和婴儿之间存在右脑对右脑的相互作用。

There's also a right brain to right brain interaction between the therapist and the patient.

治疗师和患者之间还存在右脑对右脑的互动。

And the key to both of them is regulation.

而两者的关键都是监管。

Person is coming in in a dysregulated state.

人正处于失调状态。

The key to that is regulation.

其中关键是监管。

And the key to any form of therapy, whatever the form of it is, again, is interactive regulation, and it's a therapeutic relationship.

任何形式的治疗，无论其形式是什么，关键都是互动调节，这是一种治疗关系。

The thing which is the best indicator of whether somebody will do well out of therapy and whether a clinician will do well out of therapy is how well they can deal with the therapeutic relationship.

判断一个人是否会在治疗中表现良好以及临床医生是否会在治疗中表现良好的最佳指标是他们处理治疗关系的能力。

And a really good therapist literally knows how to bring back those attachment things there, because now the person is starting to feel safety and trusted, and incidentally, attachment is about safety and trust, which is very much autonomic.

一个真正优秀的治疗师确实知道如何恢复那些依恋事物，因为现在这个人开始感到安全和信任，顺便说一句，依恋是关于安全和信任的，这是非常自主的。

But again here, the key to therapy is being able to form a therapeutic relationship with the patient.

但同样，治疗的关键是能够与患者建立治疗关系。

So the key here is, can the therapist form, co-create a therapeutic relationship with an avoidant patient, with a secure patient, with anxious patient, with a borderline patient?

所以这里的关键是，治疗师能否与回避型患者、安全型患者、焦虑型患者、边缘型患者形成、共同建立治疗关系？

As you can imagine, the toughest thing is going to be able to do with the borderline patient or the schizophrenic patient.

正如您可以想象的那样，最困难的事情将是与边缘患者或精神分裂症患者一起做。

So what you have here is that the attachment dynamics are laying out.

所以你所看到的是依恋动态正在展开。

So in the very first session, what's happening, the therapist is listening to the verbalizations of the patient in order to diagnose and understand the symptomatology.

因此，在第一次治疗中，治疗师会倾听患者的言语，以便诊断和理解症状。

But the therapist is also listening beneath the words, and the patient is tracking the attachment relationship underneath it, tracking the arousal and the arousal dysregulation underneath that.

但治疗师也在倾听言语背后的声音，而患者也在追踪言语之下的依恋关系，追踪其之下的唤醒和唤醒失调。

Tracking it in his own body, so to speak, et cetera.

可以这么说，在他自己的身体中追踪它，等等。

And again, that is a different type of listening.

再说一次，这是一种不同类型的倾听。

Again, the therapist is listening to a left brain, but more or less, the therapist is listening to the right brain.

同样，治疗师正在倾听左脑的声音，但或多或少，治疗师正在倾听右脑的声音。

And the question is, how does a therapist do that?

问题是，治疗师如何做到这一点？

And in order, just for the record, for the therapist to be able to get to the attachment dynamics, which are right lateralized, the therapist has got to switch out of the left into the right, and there's a term for that.

为了记录在案，为了让治疗师能够了解右侧依恋的动态，治疗师必须从左侧切换到右侧，并且有一个术语来形容这一点。

The term for that is surrender.

术语是投降。

Surrender.

投降。

You cannot consciously, purposely put yourself into the right.

你无法有意识地、有目的地让自己处于正确的位置。

You've got to let go.

你必须放手。

You've got to let go.

你必须放手。

Think let it be, so to speak.

可以这么说，想想就顺其自然吧。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I'd like to take a quick break and thank our sponsor, AG1.

我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商 AG1。

AG1 is an all-in-one vitamin mineral probiotic drink with adaptogens.

AG1 是一种含有适应原的一体化维生素矿物质益生菌饮料。

I've been taking AG1 daily since 2012, so I'm delighted that they're sponsoring this podcast.

自 2012 年以来，我每天都服用 AG1，所以我很高兴他们赞助这个播客。

The reason I started taking AG1, and the reason I still take AG1 once and often twice a day, is because it is the highest quality and most complete foundational nutritional supplement.

我开始服用 AG1 的原因，以及我仍然每天服用一次和经常两次 AG1 的原因，是因为它是最高质量和最完整的基础营养补充剂。

What that means is that AG1 ensures that you're getting all the necessary vitamins, minerals, and other micronutrients to form a strong foundation for your daily health.

这意味着 AG1 可确保您获得所有必需的维生素、矿物质和其他微量营养素，为您的日常健康奠定坚实的基础。

AG1 also has probiotics and prebiotics that support a healthy gut microbiome.

AG1 还含有支持健康肠道微生物群的益生菌和益生元。

Your gut microbiome consists of trillions of microorganisms that line your digestive tract and impact things such as your immune system status, your metabolic health, your hormone health, and much more.

您的肠道微生物组由数万亿微生物组成，这些微生物排列在您的消化道中，并影响您的免疫系统状态、代谢健康、激素健康等。

So I've consistently found that when I take AG1 daily, my digestion is improved, my immune system is more robust, I rarely get sick, and my mood and mental focus are at their best.

所以我一直发现，当我每天服用 AG1 时，我的消化得到改善，我的免疫系统更强大，我很少生病，而且我的情绪和精神焦点都处于最佳状态。

In fact, if I could take just one supplement, that supplement would be AG1.

事实上，如果我只能服用一种补充剂，那么该补充剂就是 AG1。

If you'd like to try AG1, you can go to drinkag1.com/huberman to claim a special offer.

如果您想尝试 AG1，可以访问 Drinkag1.com/huberman 申请特别优惠。

For this month only, November 2024, AG1 is giving away one free month supply of omega-3 fatty acids from fish oil, in addition to the usual welcome kit of five free travel packs and a year's supply of vitamin D3 K2 with your order.

仅在 2024 年 11 月这个月，AG1 将免费赠送一个月的来自鱼油的 omega-3 脂肪酸，此外，您的订单还会赠送通常的欢迎套装（包括五个免费旅行包和一年的维生素 D3 K2）。

Omega-3 fatty acids are critical for brain health, mood, cognition, and much more.

Omega-3 脂肪酸对于大脑健康、情绪、认知等至关重要。

Again, go to drinkag1.com/huberman to claim this special offer.

请再次访问 Drinkag1.com/huberman 领取此特别优惠。

Tell me more about surrender.

告诉我更多关于投降的事情。

And I just want to make sure I understand, this is surrender on the part of the therapist trying to, yes, listen to the narrative that the patient is sharing, but also paying attention to the underlying emotional state.

我只是想确保我理解，这是治疗师的投降，试图，是的，倾听患者正在分享的叙述，但也关注潜在的情绪状态。

Is the person quaking?

这个人在颤抖吗？

Are they angry?

他们生气了吗？

Is there feelings of despair, shock-

有没有一种绝望、震惊的感觉——

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

Hyperarousal or hyperarousal

过度警觉或过度警觉

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

disgust?

厌恶？

Right.

正确的。

So they're carrying this in their parallel tracks, and then is the goal of the therapist, if they're an effective one, to then soothe the patient, or is it to allow the patient to have some sort of catharsis, some release of this?

所以他们在并行的轨道上进行这个，然后是治疗师的目标，如果他们是一个有效的治疗师，然后安抚病人，或者是让病人有某种宣泄，某种释放？

At what point does the therapist intervene and try and coordinate and show the patient a different A different way to think about and feel about-

治疗师在什么时候进行干预并尝试协调并向患者展示不同的思考和感受方式 -

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

the topic matter.

主题很重要。

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

All right.

好吧。

What I'm suggesting here is that essentially the therapist is listening left brain to left brain, but the therapist also is always listening beneath the words, et cetera, and he's listening to the right brain to right brain communications.

我在这里建议的是，治疗师本质上是在倾听左脑与左脑的交流，但治疗师也总是在倾听言语等的背后，并且他正在倾听右脑与右脑的交流。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

And the patient now who is depressed is coming out with right brain communications.

现在抑郁症患者的右脑通讯功能正在显现出来。

There's sadness in the voice.

声音里带着悲伤。

The face is clearly dysregulated.

面部表情明显失调。

And essentially, as the therapist is tracking that, the emotional arousal, whether it's into hypoarousal and depression or hyperarousal into anxiety, the first thing there is to synchronize with that patient so that my physiology is syncing with their physiology.

本质上，当治疗师跟踪情绪唤醒时，无论是唤醒不足和抑郁，还是唤醒过度导致焦虑，第一件事就是与患者同步，以便我的生理机能与他们的生理机能同步。

And now, through the right insula, interoceptively, I now literally am feeling in my body what the patient is feeling in their body.

现在，通过右脑岛，内感受地，我现在在我的身体中真正感受到病人在他们身体中的感受。

I now understand that patient from the inside out.

我现在从内到外了解了这位病人。

And incidentally, what I'm picking up in my body about the dysregulation of that patient may be very different from the verbal report that that patient is giving at that time.

顺便说一句，我在身体中发现的关于该患者调节失调的信息可能与该患者当时给出的口头报告有很大不同。

But the key here, literally, just like the mother, is synchronizing with that baby's crescendos and the decrescendos of that autonomic state, of those emotional state.

但这里的关键，从字面上看，就像母亲一样，是与婴儿的自主状态、情绪状态的渐强和渐弱同步。

I'm picking up those points where they are shifting into and out of an emotional state.

我正在记录他们进入和退出情绪状态的那些点。

I'm synchronizing with that.

我正在与之同步。

And then ultimately, when I'm in sync with that kind of thing, then at that point, purely implicitly, I'm now starting to slow the tone of my voice if I want to reduce that arousal down, or I'm up-regulating the voice.

最终，当我与这类事情同步时，如果我想减少这种兴奋，或者我正在上调声音，那么在那时，完全隐含地，我现在开始放慢我的语调。

At that point in time, I am now interactively regulating, and we are now synchronized together.

那个时间点，我现在是交互调节，我们现在是同步在一起的。

So essentially what's going to happen is that as we synchronize, a- as they're going to dysregulation, we're now synchronizing together as we're going down into regulation.

所以本质上将会发生的事情是，当我们同步时，a-当他们出现失调时，我们现在正在同步，因为我们正在进入监管阶段。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So the therapist can literally and somatically show the patient what autoregulation is like or what coordinated-

因此，治疗师可以从字面上和身体上向患者展示自动调节是什么样的，或者什么是协调的——

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

regulation is like.

监管就像。

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

And you'll see it on my face.

你会在我脸上看到它。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

Face, voice, gesture.

面孔、声音、手势。

You'll see it on my face.

你会在我脸上看到的。

You'll see it in the tone of my voice.

你会从我的语气中看到这一点。

You'll see it in my gestures.

你会从我的手势中看到这一点。

Those three sensory modalities are now going back and forth between us.

这三种感官模式现在在我们之间来回流动。

So the key of the first session, literally, is not only to diagnose.

因此，第一阶段的关键，从字面上看，不仅仅是诊断。

Really, it's to start to begin to synchronize with that patient and to form a therapeutic alliance with that patient.

实际上，这是开始与该患者同步并与该患者形成治疗联盟。

And at the end of the first session, the patient may say, "I don't know why, but I'm feeling better, and I have some idea that you can understand," but it's got to be more than that, "what I am feeling," literally.

在第一次治疗结束时，患者可能会说，“我不知道为什么，但我感觉好多了，而且我有一些你可以理解的想法”，但它必须不仅仅是字面上的“我的感受”。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So often nowadays, I think we hear that adult romantic relationships can provide a healing of some of the failures of childhood attachment.

如今，我想我们经常听说成人的浪漫关系可以治愈童年时期依恋的一些失败。

And there's also a phrase thrown around a lot that we need to learn to parent ourselves.

还有一句话经常被提及，我们需要学会养育自己。

This is more of a pop psychology, online, social media thing, that people need to learn to mother and father themselves at some level, to self-soothe and to, who knows what that means.

这更像是一种流行心理学、网络、社交媒体的东西，人们需要在某种程度上学会为人父母、自我安慰，谁知道这意味着什么。

I'm not going to try and define it.

我不会尝试去定义它。

It's not operationally defined.

它没有在操作上定义。

So the question I have is, to what extent do you think the process that you just described with a therapist can start to rewire some of the capacity-

所以我的问题是，你认为你刚刚与治疗师描述的过程可以在多大程度上开始重新连接一些能力——

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

to autoregulate or coordinated regulate?

自动监管还是协调监管？

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Essentially here, what you have is, over time, partly because of this synchrony.

本质上，随着时间的推移，你所拥有的部分是由于这种同步性。

First of all, let me spell synchrony with a capital S.

首先，让我用大写的 S 来拼写“同步”。

What I mean by that is, in the last five years, a huge amount of information has come out about this idea about interpersonal synchrony.

我的意思是，在过去的五年里，出现了大量关于人际同步这一想法的信息。

The term synchrony comes from the Greek, sync meaning the same, chrony, time, same time.

“同步”一词源自希腊文，sync 的意思是相同、时间、时间、同一时间。

So that literally two people literally are synchronized in the same, we are feeling something in the same moment, and we are feeling it spontaneously between ourselves.

因此，两个人实际上是同步的，我们在同一时刻感受到某种东西，并且我们之间自发地感受到它。

We are feeling that kind of situation.

我们正感受到这种情况。

So again here, the key to the mother really even more than the autoregulation, the key is interactive regulation, number one.

所以在这里，母亲的关键实际上比自动调节更重要，关键是互动调节，这是第一位的。

Number two, it's occurring on an implicit level.

第二，它是在隐性层面上发生的。

The mother literally is doing this without any conscious awareness.

母亲实际上是在没有任何意识的情况下这样做的。

She's doing this intuitively.

她凭直觉这样做。

The right hemisphere is intuitive and it's imagistic.

右半球是直觉的，也是想象的。

It's not rational and logical.

这不符合理性和逻辑。

The key to any disorder, whatever it is, is the regulation of a particular state.

任何混乱的关键，无论是什么，都是对特定国家的监管。

The regulation of rage, the regulation of loss, the dysregulation of shame or disgust.

愤怒的调节、失落的调节、羞耻或厌恶的调节失调。

So essentially what you have is the regulation of all of these emotions.

所以本质上你所拥有的是对所有这些情绪的调节。

But that regulation, I want to point out, is all implicit.

但我想指出的是，这项规定是隐含的。

And here's where the skill of being with patients over long periods of time is the key here.

这就是与患者长期相处的技巧是关键的地方。

Because the key to making changes in the patient is not what you say to the patient or what you do to the patient, it's how to be with the patient.

因为改变病人的关键不是你对病人说了什么或者你对病人做了什么，而是如何与病人相处。

You understand the difference?

你明白其中的区别吗？

How to be with that patient, especially while that person's being is in a dysregulated state.

如何与该患者相处，尤其是当该患者处于失调状态时。

Now, by definition, when they're coming in in the first session, they are in a dysregulated state.

现在，根据定义，当他们参加第一次会议时，他们就处于失调状态。

So again, it's implicit, it's not explicit.

再说一遍，它是隐式的，而不是显式的。

If explicit regulation is an intellectual understanding of my symptoms, implicit is an unconscious understanding at a physiological level, at a psychobiological level of that.

如果说显性调节是对我的症状的理智理解，那么隐性调节则是在生理层面、心理生物学层面上的无意识理解。

And incidentally, synchrony is the mechanism underneath empathy.

顺便说一句，同步是同理心背后的机制。

Now, we know empathy literally has to be there, but empathy is a right brain function.

现在，我们知道同理心确实必须存在，但同理心是右脑的功能。

And there is a difference.

这是有区别的。

I said there's a difference in the hemispheres.

我说两个半球是有区别的。

There's a difference between emotional empathy, where I am feeling what you are feeling, and we are sharing the same feeling, and I don't have to think about that.

情感同理心是有区别的，我感受到你的感受，而我们分享同样的感受，我不需要考虑这一点。

Literally, I know at that point in time we are in the same place.

从字面上看，我知道在那一刻我们处于同一个地方。

There's a difference between emotional empathy on the right and cognitive empathy on the left.

右边的情感同理心和左边的认知同理心是有区别的。

Cognitive empathy is an understanding.

It makes no changes, because essentially what we're attempting to do is make the changes in the right.

它不做任何改变，因为本质上我们想做的是在右边进行改变。

Now, the changes in the right are going to be in the right axis.

现在，右侧的更改将位于右轴上。

They're going to be the orbitofrontal cortex, which is the executive regulator of the right brain.

它们将是眶额皮质，它是右脑的执行调节器。

The dorsolateral cortex is the executive regulator of the left brain.

背外侧皮层是左脑的执行调节器。

The orbitofrontal cortex now starts to form new connections with the cingulate, the insula, and the amygdala, and that's where you're now going to see the changes.

眶额皮层现在开始与扣带皮层、岛叶和杏仁核形成新的连接，这就是你现在将看到变化的地方。

But again, the changes are due to the regulation, so you'll see the person now starting to come into more regulated states.

但同样，这些变化是由于监管造成的，所以你会看到这个人现在开始进入更受监管的状态。

And the key is synchrony.

So what's happening here, there's a strong therapeutic alliance, safety and trust, and in that situation now, the more synchrony that is there between the two, the more interactive regulation there is between the two.

所以这里发生的事情是，有一个强大的治疗联盟、安全性和信任，在现在的情况下，两者之间的同步性越强，两者之间的互动监管就越多。

And first there will be synchrony between the patient and the therapist.

首先，患者和治疗师之间将保持同步。

Then there will be synchrony and interact regulation between that person and maybe other people, maybe a wife or partner.

然后，这个人与其他人（也许是妻子或伴侣）之间就会存在同步和互动调节。

And ultimately, the symptomatology will change, because remember, the symptomatology is dysregulation, and the whole key is to change it to regulation.

最终，症状将会改变，因为记住，症状是失调，而关键是将其转变为调节。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It's fascinating.

这很有趣。

There are a couple questions I have before we move forward about mother-infant attachment as opposed to father-infant attachment.

在我们继续讨论母婴依恋而不是父婴依恋之前，我有几个问题。

So that's one, and I'll ask these again in a moment, but I think you'll see where I'm going here.

这就是其中之一，我稍后会再次问这些问题，但我想您会明白我要说什么。

And then I'm fascinated by the idea that these circuits get established early in life, then are repurposed for adult relationships.

然后我对这些回路在生命早期建立起来，然后重新用于成人关系的想法着迷。

They can be modified in the way that you just described, but that they cross gender and gender lines.

它们可以按照您刚才描述的方式进行修改，但它们跨越性别和性别界限。

So for instance, a female baby can form these patterns of attachment with their mother, female caretaker.

例如，女婴可以与她们的母亲（女性看护者）形成这些依恋模式。

But then assuming that baby grows up to be a heterosexual woman and she has attachments to men, then these things can be reactivated across gender lines.

但假设婴儿长大后成为一名异性恋女性，并且她对男性有依恋，那么这些东西就可以跨越性别界限重新激活。

Right?

正确的？

So this formation of this circuitry is not gender specific, although it sounds like it's important that it be the mother to child in some way.

因此，这种电路的形成并不具有性别特异性，尽管听起来在某种程度上它是母婴的很重要。

You keep saying mother-child-

你一直说母子-

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

as opposed to caretaker.

与看守者相反。

So to just spell them out one by one, first question.

因此，将它们一一拼写出来，这是第一个问题。

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Are there any data about the formation of these circuits in the baby where the mother is either not available, if it's an adopted mother, if it's a child raised by extended family?

是否有关于婴儿中这些回路形成的数据，如果母亲不在身边，无论是养母，还是由大家庭抚养的孩子？

There's so many different configurations-

有很多不同的配置——

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

but you get the point.

但你明白了。

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

All right.

好吧。

Here's what I'm suggesting.

这就是我的建议。

First of all, there has been some conflict on this, but after 30 years on this, I believe that there is a primary attachment figure, and the primary attachment figure is the person who was the interactive regulator of that baby when that baby is under stress.

首先，在这方面存在一些冲突，但在这方面30年后，我相信存在一个主要依恋人物，而主要依恋人物是当婴儿处于压力之下时充当婴儿互动调节者的人。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Between-

之间-

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

Now-

现在——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

age zero and two.

零岁和两岁。

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Or let me say it even another way.

或者让我换一种方式说。

The primary attachment figure is the person who provides the right brain for that baby when that baby's right brain is dysregulated.

主要依恋对象是当婴儿的右脑失调时为婴儿提供右脑的人。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Could be dad, could be mom.

可以是爸爸，也可以是妈妈。

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

Could be.

可能是。

Yes, it's true, women are better at reading nonverbal cues than men are, but it could be.

是的，确实如此，女性比男性更善于解读非语言暗示，但也有可能。

And incidentally, we now have some evidence that's showing that men do have right brains.

顺便说一句，我们现在有一些证据表明男性确实有右脑。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

For a second there, I wasn't sure if you were joking.

有那么一瞬间，我不确定你是不是在开玩笑。

But I don't know, maybe that's reflective of an atrophied-

但我不知道，也许这反映了萎缩——

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

right brain.

右脑。

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

All right.

好吧。

Now, that being the case, what's happening here is that in the first year or two, the mother's right brain, the person who is the right brain, which in most cultures is a woman.

现在，既然如此，这里发生的事情是，在头一两年里，母亲的右脑，右脑的人，在大多数文化中是女人。

But does not have to be, it could be a stay-at-home dad who literally has a good right brain, and maybe a couple are figuring out that literally he'd be better in that position, but it needs that right brain.

但不一定是这样，它可能是一个真正拥有良好右脑的全职父亲，也许有一对夫妇正在发现他实际上会更好地担任这个职位，但它需要右脑。

But other than that, what happens here, when it goes now into the second year, toward the end of second year, and the father comes online, got me?

但除此之外，当现在进入第二年，接近第二年年底，父亲上线时，会发生什么，明白我的意思吗？

At that point in time, the father now becomes a primary attachment figure also.

那时，父亲现在也成为主要的依恋对象。

But he has some differences the way that he's dealing with that baby.

但他对待那个婴儿的方式有些不同。

He's usually more arousing with that baby, and that the play is more arousing with that baby.

他通常对那个婴儿更兴奋，而这个游戏对那个婴儿更兴奋。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So more activation of the sympathetic autonomic-

因此更多地激活交感神经自主神经

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

so sort of more up, let's call it-

还有更多，让我们称之为-

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

Yes

是的

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

up-level play.

上水平的发挥。

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

Exactly.

正是如此。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right.

对。

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

You're dealing with more upregulation and being able to tolerate more hyper-aroused states.

你正在应对更多的上调，并且能够容忍更多的过度兴奋状态。

Because in the second year, one of the things that the father will do with the infant is, with the toddler, infant first year, toddler second year, rough and tumble play, for example.

因为在第二年，父亲会对婴儿做的事情之一就是，与幼儿一起，例如婴儿第一年、幼儿第二年、打闹游戏。

Rough and tumble play.

粗暴和翻滚的游戏。

So the father is that.

所以父亲就是这样的。

So the father literally is now teaching the child literally how to take risks, but the father is now moving more towards autonomy and independence The mother was there at the beginning about interactive regulation, and so the father is playing that role.

所以父亲现在实际上是在教孩子如何去冒险，但父亲现在更多地走向自主和独立。母亲一开始就在互动调节，所以父亲正在扮演这个角色。

And I've also suggested that just as the mother is shaping that baby's right brain in the first year, the father is now shaping that baby's left brain towards the end of the first year, second, and into the third year.

That he's shaping his left brain to that baby's left brain.

他正在将自己的左脑塑造成婴儿的左脑。

That being the case, he may also, earlier on, have had good experiences with that baby early on in life.

既然如此，他可能早年也曾与那个婴儿有过良好的经历。

And a good example of that would be a father who is tender, yet at the same time is instrumental and is teaching things about the world.

一个很好的例子就是一位温柔的父亲，但同时又很有帮助，并且教导人们有关世界的事情。

So one brain is shaped by the mother figure, the brother by the father figure.

因此，一个大脑是由母亲形象塑造的，而兄弟则是由父亲形象塑造的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

What about under situations where there's really just one primary caretaker?

在只有一名主要看护者的情况下该怎么办？

This is increasingly common nowadays.

如今，这种情况越来越普遍。

And in some countries, like in certain Scandinavian countries, people opt to do this, and elsewhere, of course, but this isn't always a divorce situation.

在某些国家，例如某些斯堪的纳维亚国家，人们选择这样做，当然在其他地方也如此，但这并不总是离婚的情况。

Sometimes people decide to have children on their own.

有时人们决定自己生孩子。

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

I think what's happening in that kind of situation is the person is initially providing the right brain, and then that person is now providing the left brain.

我认为在这种情况下发生的事情是这个人最初提供右脑，然后那个人现在提供左脑。

So let's say a single woman with a child, her right brain is there on the get, but then in the second year, and incidentally, there may be father figures or family members who also can step into that, but essentially her left brain is there also.

因此，假设一个有孩子的单身女性，她的右脑很快就在那里，但到了第二年，顺便说一句，可能会有父亲形象或家庭成员也可以介入，但本质上她的左脑也在那里。

Remember, we both have right brains and left brains.

请记住，我们都有右脑和左脑。

But again, that's a different kinds of skill in a left brain, which would be the more autonomous situation.

但同样，这是左脑的一种不同类型的技能，这将是更自主的情况。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

What are your thoughts about some of the modern exploration of compounds that can facilitate more right brain synchrony between therapist and patient?

您对一些可以促进治疗师和患者之间右脑同步的现代化合物探索有何看法？

I've done a few episodes about MDMA-assisted psychotherapy.

我已经做了一些关于摇头丸辅助心理治疗的剧集。

These, of course, were just recently not approved by the FDA, so these are not legal.

当然，这些药物最近还没有获得 FDA 批准，因此它们是不合法的。

Nonetheless, there are interesting clinical studies showing that these are empathogens.

尽管如此，有一些有趣的临床研究表明这些是共情原。

One could imagine that they could be useful in the proper context to improve patient-therapist right brain synchrony and accelerate some of this process.

人们可以想象，它们在适当的情况下可以有用地改善患者与治疗师的右脑同步并加速这一过程。

But it seems like it would also require both the patient and the therapist taking the compound, and that seems like it would have all sorts of ethical issues.

但似乎还需要患者和治疗师都服用这种化合物，这似乎会带来各种伦理问题。

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Remember, it's the relationship in the end that is the key there.

请记住，最终的关系才是关键。

I'm also somewhat aware of that literature, and you used the word empathogen, which is not quite straight out empathic, but mimicking those kind of situations there.

我也对那些文献有所了解，你使用了“共情原”这个词，这并不是直接的共情，而是模仿那里的那种情况。

My thought is that that might be more efficacious if it were specifically involving right brain dynamics with a person who knew how to work with those right brain.

我的想法是，如果它专门涉及一个知道如何使用右脑的人的右脑动态，可能会更有效。

What you're getting there are very early forms of the behaviors which are subcortical.

你所得到的是皮层下行为的早期形式。

Remember, the attachment is also regulating the subcortical areas, and those are the key ones.

请记住，附件还调节皮质下区域，而这些区域是关键区域。

And incidentally, we are paying too much attention to the cortical area.

顺便说一句，我们过于关注皮质区域。

We literally have to shift because the subcortical areas are the foundations of the human, and everything is built on top of that.

我们确实必须转变，因为皮质下区域是人类的基础，一切都建立在其之上。

I'll come back to in utero in a second if I don't get on that.

如果我不接受的话，我很快就会回到子宫里。

In fact, I have some people who have worked with me have also been using right brain type psychotherapy with those patients, and I think that that will be really interesting possibilities of seeing changes where you have the relationship in addition to that.

And also some understanding about how the right brain works, because one of the problems that you have where there is still some resistance to this, the idea that the right brain is just a simpler version of the complex left hemisphere.

But that's not the case.

但事实并非如此。

This right brain is working completely differently.

右脑的工作方式完全不同。

So I'm thinking that in that case, a better situation.

所以我认为在这种情况下，情况会更好。

Before I forget this, I want to just throw one other piece in.

在我忘记这一点之前，我想把另一块放进去。

I said that the right brain is in a growth spurt from the last trimester.

我说过，右脑从孕晚期开始处于突增期。

In the last five years, 10 years, there has been a real interest in in utero development and evidence to show that you're even seeing lateralization in the fetus.

在过去的五年、十年中，人们对子宫发育产生了真正的兴趣，并且有证据表明您甚至可以看到胎儿的侧化。

And there's even evidence now, scientific evidence, to show that the early memories in utero are stored in the right amygdala.

现在甚至有证据、科学证据表明，子宫内的早期记忆存储在右侧杏仁核中。

So they're down there, so to speak.

可以这么说，他们就在那里。

So we're now paying more and more attention to what is happening there, because at birth, literally what you have here is the deeper parts of the right brain are evolving in utero, the insula and the right amygdala, the center amygdala, and that's setting up, and you also have synchronization across the placenta, whereby they are regulating each other's autonomic nervous systems.

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Can adrenaline pass across the placenta?

肾上腺素可以穿过胎盘吗？

I should know this.

我应该知道这一点。

I know adrenaline doesn't cross the blood-brain barrier, but the brain makes its own adrenaline.

我知道肾上腺素不会穿过血脑屏障，但大脑会产生自己的肾上腺素。

But do we know if adrenaline crosses the placental barrier?

但我们知道肾上腺素是否能穿过胎盘屏障吗？

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

Well, first of all, most of the studies have been on cortisol.

嗯，首先，大多数研究都是关于皮质醇的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right.

对。

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

And high levels of cortisol-

以及高水平的皮质醇——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Sure

当然可以

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

...

they're going to cross it.

他们要跨越它。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Sure.

当然。

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

So if you have, let's say, the amygdala, which is in a critical period of growth, the right amygdala, and the cortisol levels are very high That's really going to not be an optimal situation for that amygdala to evolve because you're going to have a continuous stress response there, and that's going to have-- And essentially what that means also that if the mother is in a very stressed state during in utero, some of that literally now is going to impact the lower areas of the brain.

So, as far as adrenaline goes, I'm not sure on that.

所以，就肾上腺素而言，我不确定。

I don't see why not.

我不明白为什么不。

Although hormones certainly cross.

尽管荷尔蒙肯定是交叉的。

We're looking at not only changes in neuromodulators especially, incidentally the key here that we're trying to regulate are the neuromodulators.

Excuse me.

打扰一下。

Dopamine, reward, noradrenaline, adrenaline.

多巴胺、奖励、去甲肾上腺素、肾上腺素。

It's those which also early in life literally form neuroplastic, so they will form circuits.

这些在生命早期确实形成了神经可塑性，因此它们会形成回路。

That's what we're attempting to regulate here, to down-regulate very high levels of noradrenaline and up-regulate dopamine, etc.

这就是我们在这里试图调节的，下调非常高水平的去甲肾上腺素并上调多巴胺等。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I'd like to take a quick break and thank one of our sponsors, Function.

我想稍微休息一下，并感谢我们的赞助商之一 Function。

I recently became a Function member after searching for the most comprehensive approach to lab testing.

在寻找最全面的实验室测试方法后，我最近成为了 Function 成员。

While I've long been a fan of blood testing, I really wanted to find a more in-depth program for analyzing blood, urine, and saliva to get a full picture of my heart health, my hormone status, my immune system regulation, my metabolic function, my vitamin and mineral status, and other critical areas of my overall health and vitality.

虽然我长期以来一直热衷于血液检测，但我真的很想找到一个更深入的程序来分析血液、尿液和唾液，以全面了解我的心脏健康状况、我的激素状态、我的免疫系统调节、我的代谢功能、我的维生素和矿物质状态以及我整体健康和活力的其他关键领域。

Function not only provides testing of over 100 biomarkers key to physical and mental health, but it also analyzes these results and provides insights from top doctors on your results.

For example, in one of my first tests with Function, I learned that I had too high levels of mercury in my blood.

例如，在我第一次使用 Function 进行测试时，我发现我的血液中汞含量过高。

This was totally surprising to me.

这让我完全惊讶。

I had no idea prior to taking the test.

参加考试之前我不知道。

Function not only helped me detect this, but offered medical doctor-informed insights on how to best reduce those mercury levels, which included limiting my tuna consumption, because I had been eating a lot of tuna, while also making an effort to eat more leafy greens and supplementing with NAC, N-acetylcysteine, both of which can support glutathione production and detoxification, and worked to reduce my mercury levels.

功能不仅帮助我发现了这一点，而且还为我提供了关于如何最好地降低汞含量的医生知情见解，其中包括限制我的金枪鱼消费，因为我一直在吃大量金枪鱼，同时还努力吃更多的绿叶蔬菜并补充 NAC、N-乙酰半胱氨酸，这两者都可以支持谷胱甘肽的产生和解毒，并努力降低我的汞含量。

Comprehensive lab testing like this is so important for health, and while I've been doing it for years, I've always found it to be overly complicated and expensive.

像这样的综合实验室测试对健康非常重要，虽然我已经这样做了很多年，但我总是发现它过于复杂和昂贵。

I've been so impressed by Function, both at the level of ease of use, that is getting the test done, as well as how comprehensive and how actionable the tests are, that I recently joined their advisory board, and I'm thrilled that they're sponsoring the podcast.

Function 给我留下了深刻的印象，无论是在易用性方面，还是在完成测试方面，以及测试的全面性和可操作性方面，我最近加入了他们的顾问委员会，我很高兴他们赞助了这个播客。

If you'd like to try Function, go to functionhealth.com/huberman.

如果您想尝试 Function，请访问 functionhealth.com/huberman。

Function currently has a wait list of over 250,000 people, but they're offering early access to Huberman Lab listeners.

Function 目前有超过 250,000 人的等待名单，但他们正在为 Huberman Lab 听众提供早期访问机会。

Again, that's functionhealth.com/huberman to get early access to Function.

同样，可以通过 functionhealth.com/huberman 提前访问 Function。

As I recall in your book, "Right Brain Psychotherapy," there was a beautiful description of these upstates and then these more calming state coordination between mother and child.

And I actually read this book when I was living in Topanga.

我住在托潘加时实际上读过这本书。

I would walk on the road.

我会走在路上。

I don't recommend this, there are no sidewalks in Topanga, and I would read the physical copy, and I recall very distinctly thinking about this image of the baby and the mother, and the baby is a little bit hyperaroused, is upset, and so the mother would make sort of sounds, not necessarily words like, "Shush." These kinds of things.

Or humming or-

或者哼哼或者——

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

Lullabies

摇篮曲

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

bouncing.

弹跳。

Lullabies, these sorts of things.

摇篮曲之类的。

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

That's the prosody.

这就是韵律。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

The prosody.

韵律。

And then the related release of things like serotonin, perhaps oxytocin as well.

然后是血清素等相关物质的释放，也许还有催产素。

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

We can talk more about those.

我们可以更多地讨论这些。

But then also how critical it is for the mother to be able to regulate the baby's transition to upstates, like looking at the baby as it comes out of a nap and saying, "Good morning," and really wide eyes, lots of gesturing, lots of gesticulating, that is, bringing the voice level up and the baby really waking up in a steeper slope of arousal, and how important that was, and then that being slightly more related, and this makes perfect sense, to norepinephrine, adrenaline at low healthy levels, and perhaps dopamine as well.

But then also how critical it is for the mother to be able to regulate the baby's transition to upstates, like looking at the baby as it comes out of a nap and saying, "Good morning," and really wide eyes, lots of gesturing, lots of gesticulating, that is, bringing the voice level up and the baby really waking up in a steeper slope of arousal, and how important that was, and then that being slightly more related, and this makes perfect sense, to norepinephrine,肾上腺素处于较低的健康水平，也许还有多巴胺。

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Is that the right way to think about this?

这是思考这个问题的正确方式吗？

And if so, is that what's going on when we form adult friendships, adult relationships?

如果是这样，那么当我们建立成人友谊、成人关系时，这就是发生的事情吗？

Are we oscillating back and forth between the ability to hang out and relax and soothe each other, and the ability to get excited about something?

Is this the basis of all relationships and relating?

这是所有关系和关联的基础吗？

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

Yes.

是的。

The key here is emotion regulation again, and again, it's implicit emotion regulation.

这里的关键又是情绪调节，又是内隐的情绪调节。

One of the central tenets of my ideas here is that first of all, there has been too much of an emphasis on the downregulation of negative states.

You remember the original attachment theory, the secure base, the baby would come back in a stressed state, she would down-regulate the negative states.

But really, attachment is about the downregulation of negative states and the upregulation of positive states.

但实际上，依恋是关于消极状态的下调和积极状态的上调。

Still, at this point in time, the importance of positive states in the human experience are overlooked.

然而，此时此刻，积极状态在人类经历中的重要性却被忽视了。

Positive emotions, joy, enthusiasm, excitement.

积极的情绪，喜悦，热情，兴奋。

Positive states literally are the key, and there are hormonal aspects to that, as you just point out.

积极的状态确实是关键，正如你刚才指出的，这与荷尔蒙有关。

For example, dopamine, etc. And this goes for therapy also.

例如多巴胺等。这也适用于治疗。

In therapy, it's not only just the downregulation and the sharing the downregulation, but it's also sharing the upregulation of positive states, because that's a critical piece of it also.

But there still is that bias to look one way.

但仍然存在一种偏向于单一视角的偏见。

Now, in the "Right Brain" book, I'm also talking about two types of love, quiet love and excited love This was the famous psychoanalyst, Donald Winnicott, who was a pediatrician, who was one of the great psychoanalysts of the 20th century, and he made the distinction between quiet love, which would again be the downregulation of noradrenaline, which is into a parasympathetic state, so you're going from a hypersympathetic state into a parasympathetic state, quiet love, and then excited love, which would be also passionate love, which is the high arousal state out of it, so to speak.

Now, in the "Right Brain" book, I'm also talking about two types of love, quiet love and excited love This was the famous psychoanalyst, Donald Winnicott, who was a pediatrician, who was one of the great psychoanalysts of the 20th century, and he made the distinction between quiet love, which would again be the downregulation of noradrenaline, which is into a parasympathetic state, so you're going from a hypersympathetic state into a parasympathetic状态，安静的爱，然后是兴奋的爱，这也是激情的爱，可以说是高唤醒状态。

And they are both important, and ultimately, they both need to be integrated.

它们都很重要，最终都需要整合。

And you may have a situation whereby one can do one, but ultimately they have to come together.

你可能会遇到这样一种情况，人们可以做一件事，但最终他们必须走到一起。

Let me make this important point.

让我强调这一点。

In the end, we have negative emotions for adaptive reasons.

最终，我们出于适应性原因而产生负面情绪。

It's there.

它就在那里。

Let's take shame.

让我们感到羞耻吧。

Shame is meant to dose down very high levels of arousal.

羞耻感的目的是降低非常高的兴奋水平。

And if one can't do that, very high levels of arousal, let's say in narcissistic personality disorders, you need to be able to...

如果一个人不能做到这一点，那么，在自恋型人格障碍中，非常高水平的唤醒，你需要能够......

So we need to have access to both positive and negative emotion.

因此，我们需要同时获得积极和消极的情绪。

But the real key to a secure attachment is the ability to integrate both positive and negative emotions.

但安全依恋的真正关键是整合积极和消极情绪的能力。

So with a really good securely attachment mother, when that baby is in a down state, she can literally ride down with that baby and synchronize.

因此，对于一个真正良好的安全依恋母亲来说，当婴儿处于低落状态时，她实际上可以与婴儿一起骑行并同步。

And when it's an up state, she can really ride up with that state.

当处于上升状态时，她真的可以顺应这种状态。

In the case of narcissistic personality disorders, let's say, for example, now I'm jumping here, we've got an insecure attachment.

就自恋型人格障碍而言，比如说，现在我跳到这里，我们有一种不安全的依恋。

It can be an avoidant attachment, or the other one, depends on what kind.

它可以是一种回避型依恋，也可以是另一种依恋，这取决于哪种依恋。

There are two different types of narcissistic personality disorders.

自恋型人格障碍有两种不同类型。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You can have anxiously attached narcissistic-

你可能有焦虑的自恋——

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

No, but you can have two different types of narcissistic personality disorders.

不，但你可能有两种不同类型的自恋型人格障碍。

A vulnerable attachment and an egotistical attachment.

脆弱的依恋和自私的依恋。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You said a vulnerable attachment?

你说的是脆弱的附件？

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

Vulnerable attachment is, again, anxious attachment.

脆弱的依恋又是焦虑的依恋。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

These people constantly need praise?

这些人经常需要赞美吗？

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Yes.

是的。

Sound familiar?

听起来很熟悉吗？

But also egotistical attachment.

但也有自我执着。

But my point out of that essentially here is the stresses in life are there, and that the negative stresses are there, but we can learn from those negative stresses also, et cetera.

And ultimately what we need to do is to be able to know how to integrate.

最终我们需要做的是能够知道如何集成。

If we can't integrate the positive and the negative, we'll end up with splitting.

如果我们不能整合积极和消极，我们最终就会分裂。

You know the term.

你知道这个词。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Because I believe that's a primary feature of borderline personality disorder.

因为我相信这是边缘型人格障碍的主要特征。

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Which I think we should also touch on.

我认为我们也应该谈谈这一点。

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

So, my understanding about splitting is that it's the "I love you, I hate you" phenomenon brought on by not just an internal switch, which is sometimes seen in bipolar disorder, but rather somebody with a borderline personality disorder will see something and be very upset, suddenly the fact that a glass is empty of a drink meant that they didn't think enough to refill a glass of something, whereas a few minutes before, it was perfectly fine, it was not an issue, right?

所以，我对分裂的理解是，这是一种“我爱你，我恨你”的现象，不仅是由内部开关引起的，这有时会在双相情感障碍中看到，而是边缘性人格障碍的人会看到一些东西并感到非常不安，突然，杯子里的饮料空了，这意味着他们没有足够的思考来重新倒一杯东西，而几分钟前，这完全没问题，这不是问题，对吗？

There needs to be a trigger, and then they split.

需要有一个触发点，然后他们就会分裂。

Is that right?

是这样吗？

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

Yeah.

是的。

So essentially, the splitting goes out externally.

所以本质上，分裂是从外部发生的。

That person is all bad.

那个人全都是坏人。

I am all good.

我一切都好。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Hmm.

嗯。

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

So now you have that splitting, et cetera, and you can't see anything of a goodness in that person at this point in time.

所以现在你有那种分裂，等等，此时你在那个人身上看不到任何善良。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Does it sometimes go the other way?

有时会出现相反的情况吗？

That person's all good, I'm bad.

那个人很好，我很坏。

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

It could also be that, all good.

也可能是这样，一切都好。

But you also have internally splitting.

但你们也有内部分裂。

You have an internal split between a good self and a bad self, and internally, there's an internal object relation that we all have as we internalize these external relationships, so that there's a good self and a bad self, literally, and that they cannot be integrated, so to speak.

好自我和坏自我之间存在着内在的分裂，在内部，当我们将这些外部关系内化时，我们所有人都拥有一种内部客体关系，因此，从字面上看，有一个好自我和一个坏自我，可以这么说，它们无法整合。

And that, that part of me, I hate that part of me, versus I love that part of me.

我的那一部分，我讨厌我的那一部分，而不是我爱我的那一部分。

Also, in terms of borderline, usually what you see at the very beginning is that there's an over-idealization of the positive values of that therapist, and then there are some stressors and misattunements and ruptures that aren't repaired, and now all of a sudden, what was totally good now becomes totally bad.

另外，就边界而言，通常你一开始看到的是治疗师的积极价值观过于理想化，然后出现了一些未修复的压力源、失调和破裂，现在突然之间，完全好的事情变得完全坏了。

Incidentally, that could be, if there is not a strong therapeutic alliance, the point at which the person will drop out.

顺便说一句，如果没有强大的治疗联盟，这可能是该人退出的时刻。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Are these people with borderline personality, I don't know if you still call it a disorder.

这些人都是边缘型人格吗，不知道你还称其为障碍吗？

Nowadays, it gets a little bit into the...

如今，它有点进入...

Let's call it borderline.

我们称之为边界。

With borderline, do they exhibit the same sort of splitting, idealization, and then the idea that somebody is terrible, and they want nothing to do with them in the context of work relationships, friendships?

对于边缘人，他们是否表现出同样的分裂、理想化，然后认为某人很糟糕，他们不想在工作关系、友谊中与他们有任何关系？

Does it extend out into other domains of life, or is it unique to certain types of relationships?

它是否延伸到生活的其他领域，或者它是某些类型的关系所独有的？

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

I think it's a way of seeing the world.

我认为这是一种看待世界的方式。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

Remember, and the way of seeing the world essentially is very different from the left hemisphere and the right hemisphere.

请记住，左半球和右半球看待世界的方式本质上是非常不同的。

The right hemisphere sees the world through emotional relationships.

右半球通过情感关系来看待世界。

And so that can become a trait that can be really a hard and fast trait.

因此，这可以成为一种真正硬性且快速的特质。

Let me put it another way.

让我换一种说法。

In the case of narcissistic personality disorder, the baby is all good.

在自恋型人格障碍的情况下，宝宝一切都好。

The caregiver, primary caregiver, is always thinking very positive about that infant.

照顾者，主要照顾者，总是对婴儿抱有非常积极的看法。

But when that infant now all of a sudden becomes depressed, the interactive regulation stops at that point in time.

但当那个婴儿现在突然变得抑郁时，互动调节就会在那个时间点停止。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

The caregiver doesn't want anything to do with that infant.

看护者不想与那个婴儿有任何关系。

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

So at that point in time, now everything is unconscious.

所以在那个时间点上，现在一切都是无意识的。

If you and I are together and there is a misattunement between us, what possibility, let's say in a dismissive attachment, is all of a sudden I will disengage?

如果你和我在一起，我们之间存在不协调，比如说，在一种不屑一顾的依恋中，我有什么可能会突然脱离？

We got too close, and at that point in time, maybe I'm acting out my early attachment dynamics because what the baby is doing is expecting what the mother will do next.

我们靠得太近了，在那个时间点，也许我正在表现出我早期的依恋动力，因为婴儿正在做的事情是期待母亲下一步会做什么。

And at that point in time, there's a misattunement like that, and so in the case of a dismissive personality, that person will emotionally disengage.

到了那个时候，就会出现这样的失调，所以在性格轻蔑的情况下，那个人会在情感上脱离。

Okay?

好的？

Become very abstract at that point in time.

在那个时间点变得非常抽象。

And at that point in time, I can't feel you.

在那一刻，我感觉不到你。

I hear what you're saying.

我听到你在说什么。

And so at all points in time, you have this situation of coming closer and moving apart.

所以在任何时候，你都会遇到这种靠近又远离的情况。

And this will be acted out in the therapeutic relationship also.

这也会在治疗关系中体现出来。

And so that every time the anxious person is stressed, they'll come in closer to you now.

这样，每当焦虑的人感到压力时，他们就会离你更近。

Now they're more demanding about what they need from you.

现在他们对你的要求更高了。

Look at the tone of my voice.

看看我的语气。

While the insecure avoidant now is now going to deactivate it, and at that point in time, my voice will now get flat.

虽然不安全的回避者现在要停用它，但在那个时间点，我的声音现在会变得平淡。

You can't even hear the affective tone of my voice.

你甚至听不到我声音中充满感情的语气。

So I'm telling you that we always pick up, at the level of our own physiology, how emotionally close or distant that person is at this point in time, especially at points of stress, whether I'm coming in or I'm moving out.

所以我告诉你，我们总是在我们自己的生理学水平上了解那个人在这个时间点的情感上有多近或多远，尤其是在有压力的时候，无论我是进来还是出去。

Let me go back to this.

让我回到这一点。

All of this is occurring at an implicit level, which is why you said something about re-parenting, et cetera.

所有这一切都发生在隐含的层面上，这就是为什么你提到了重新养育子女等等。

Too much is on a conscious level there.

那里的意识层面太多了。

If you really want to make these changes in a personality, they have to be changes in the right brain.

如果你真的想改变一个人的性格，就必须改变右脑。

And that's why all therapy now is looking into emotion.

这就是为什么现在所有的治疗都在研究情绪。

All therapy.

所有治疗。

No matter what form of therapy, it's laying on top of the therapeutic relationship and emotion per se.

无论何种形式的治疗，它都建立在治疗关系和情感本身之上。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I'm pausing because I'm just taking all this in and thinking about, what are the ways that people can start to tap into this right brain health or lack of health and ways to repair their right brain circuitry, so to speak, without a therapist?

我停下来是因为我只是在考虑所有这些并思考，人们可以通过哪些方式开始利用右脑健康或缺乏健康以及修复右脑回路的方法，可以这么说，无需治疗师？

Or is that just simply impossible?

或者这根本不可能？

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

No, it's not impossible.

不，这并非不可能。

We all do grow, and incidentally, our right brains do grow.

我们都会成长，顺便说一句，我们的右脑也会成长。

But again, the key here, I'm suggesting the whole idea about interpersonal neurobiology.

但同样，这里的关键是，我提出了关于人际神经生物学的整个想法。

I was the editor of the "North and Syria Interpersonal", which is the two-person situation.

我是《北叙利亚人际》的编辑，就是两个人的情况。

There has been too much of an emphasis on autoregulation and not enough emphasis on interactive regulation.

过分强调自动监管，而对互动监管的重视不够。

The real key to changing the right brain is finding people you can be close with, finding people you can be open with, finding people you can be vulnerable with, that literally you can show your shortcomings and opening yourself up to those people as they open up to you.

改变右脑的真正关键是找到你可以亲近的人，找到你可以敞开心扉的人，找到你可以脆弱的人，从字面上看，你可以展示自己的缺点，并在人们向你敞开心扉时向他们敞开心扉。

It's literally to form that right-brain-to-right-brain communication system with someone else.

从字面上看，它是与其他人形成右脑到右脑的沟通系统。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I think I just got it.

我想我刚刚明白了。

I think, if I'm not mistaken, what you're describing is interactive dynamics that create or elaborate on circuitry that exists in all of us, but that for some people might be atrophied because of the lack of proper nourishment, emotional nourishment early in life.

我想，如果我没记错的话，你所描述的是互动动力，它创造或阐述了我们所有人都存在的电路，但对于某些人来说，由于生命早期缺乏适当的滋养和情感滋养，这种电路可能会萎缩。

But that we can engage these right brain circuits.

但我们可以调动这些右脑回路。

But then when we're not around these people, there must be something about the right brain circuitry that provides a sort of a soothing function, so that we must know at an implicit level that we can do this.

但是，当我们不在这些人身边时，右脑回路一定有某种东西可以提供某种舒缓功能，因此我们必须在隐含的水平上知道我们可以做到这一点。

We know how to attach in healthy ways to people.

我们知道如何以健康的方式与人建立联系。

We have a close friend we can rely on.

我们有一个可以信赖的亲密朋友。

We have maybe friends, plural.

我们也许有朋友，复数。

We maybe repaired a relationship with a sibling, this kind of thing.

我们也许修复了与兄弟姐妹的关系，诸如此类的事情。

So it's not that these circuits need to constantly be engaged every moment with the barista, with the-

因此，这些电路并不需要时时刻刻与咖啡师、与-

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

No, no.

不，不。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But that we somehow, at an unconscious level, it must be that we come to realize that this circuitry has re-elaborated or is elaborated in a way that we know, quote unquote, "We can do it."

但不知怎的，在无意识的层面上，我们一定会意识到这个电路已经被重新阐述，或者是以我们知道的方式阐述的，“我们可以做到”。

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

Remember, part of the problem is being able to take these things in here.

请记住，部分问题在于能否将这些东西带入此处。

But the key to emotion, incidentally, let me throw out another important term in terms of, let's say, a therapy situation.

但顺便说一句，情绪的关键让我抛出另一个重要术语，比如说治疗情境。

Now, I've said essentially therapy is about literally reworking emotion, and the key to mental health and physical health is also a right brain emotional situation here.

现在，我已经说过，本质上，治疗就是重塑情绪，而心理健康和身体健康的关键也是右脑情绪状况。

The key here is that there are heightened affective moments in a therapy session.

这里的关键是治疗过程中情感时刻的增加。

I'm going to go therapy, then I'm going to come back to your question.

我要去接受治疗，然后我会回到你的问题。

We've now formed the therapeutic alliance.

我们现在已经组成了治疗联盟。

The stronger the therapeutic alliance is between us, more empathy between us, so to speak, the more we can share.

我们之间的治疗联盟越牢固，我们之间的同理心就越多，可以说，我们可以分享的东西就越多。

I'm now going to start to drop some of my defenses because the defenses are there to block affect, negative affect.

我现在要开始放弃一些防御，因为防御是用来阻止情感、负面情感的。

But and begin now to take a chance now to open myself up to somebody else's.

但是现在就开始抓住机会向别人敞开心扉。

But in a therapy session, somewhere around the middle of that session, the person comes in, out of the world, in a left brain state.

但在治疗过程中，在治疗过程中的某个时间，患者进入、离开世界，处于左脑状态。

Somewhere in the middle of the session, they start moving into affect.

在会议中间的某个时候，他们开始产生影响。

And now the person is starting to talk in a more affective level.

现在这个人开始在更情感层面上说话。

And now talking about a memory or some sad situation or something that just happened in a relationship with a couple.

现在谈论一段记忆或一些悲伤的情况或刚刚在夫妻关系中发生的事情。

Now, you even start hearing my voice is now, the voice tone change.

现在，你甚至开始听到我的声音了，声音的语气发生了变化。

And these moments, which only may last, believe it or not, 50, 60 seconds, are heightened affective moments.

不管你信不信，这些时刻可能只会持续 50、60 秒，但却是高度情感化的时刻。

These are moments when all of a sudden we are both in the right and we are both synchronized, and the affect of now is out there, so to speak.

在这些时刻，我们突然都站在了正确的一边，而且我们都同步了，可以说，现在的影响就在那里。

And that's the possibility now to get this change in these heightened affective moments.

这就是现在在这些高度情感时刻实现这种改变的可能性。

So to be in an interpersonal relationship with someone and to co-create with that person a heightened affective moment in both of us, which we are sharing at that point in time, by taking the risk to be open at that point in time also.

因此，与某人建立人际关系，并与那个人共同创造我们双方的高度情感时刻，我们在那个时间点分享，通过冒险在那个时间点也开放。

These are the moments in life that you really go into your autobiographical memory.

这些是你真正进入自传记忆的人生时刻。

I remember my occasion with that person, and I can bring back the whole context because remember, the right brain acts with images.

我记得我和那个人在一起的情景，我可以带回整个背景，因为记住，右脑是用图像来运作的。

So I can bring back that image now, and I can remember the closeness that I felt at that point in time, et cetera.

所以我现在可以回忆起那个画面，我还记得当时我感受到的亲密感，等等。

These are put into right brain.

这些都被放入右脑。

So we are always putting into our autobiographical memory these heightened affective moments.

因此，我们总是将这些高度的情感时刻放入我们的自传式记忆中。

So to have those shared affective moments with other people, these are really whereby you're making changes in the right, and these are much more important, I want to suggest, than intellectually.

因此，为了与其他人分享那些情感时刻，这些实际上是你在正确的方面做出改变，我想建议，这些比理智上的改变更重要。

Now, there have been certain fMRI, I'm going to move into a little bit of a different place here.

现在，已经有了一定的功能磁共振成像，我要搬到一个稍微不同的地方。

What I'm suggesting is that these right brain to right brain communications are always going on, but certain people literally can't read them as well as other people can, and they can't read the face of voice, and they can't synchronize well.

我的建议是，这些右脑到右脑的交流一直在进行，但某些人实际上无法像其他人那样阅读它们，他们无法阅读声音的面孔，而且他们无法很好地同步。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Can I stop you and ask one question, which is, let's take this conversation, for instance.

我可以打断你问一个问题吗？例如，让我们以这次谈话为例。

I'm listening to your words very carefully.

我正在非常仔细地听你的话。

If I make an effort to listen especially carefully to what somebody is saying, the content of their words, is there a competition between left and right brain such that I'm now not getting as much right brain listening?

如果我努力特别仔细地听别人在说什么，他们的话的内容，左脑和右脑之间是否存在竞争，导致我现在没有得到那么多的右脑倾听？

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Okay.

好的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

This to me feels like the surrender aspect, whereas I can, and I do this during these interviews/discussions, where I'll sit back sometimes and I'm still listening, but I widen my gaze.

对我来说，这感觉就像投降的方面，而我可以，而且我在这些采访/讨论中这样做，有时我会坐下来，我仍在听，但我扩大了目光。

I don't look around, but I widen my gaze, and I'm trying to just feel something coming in.

我没有环顾四周，但我睁大了眼睛，试图感受有什么东西进来。

I'm not a therapist, obviously.

显然，我不是治疗师。

No one would ever suspect that I was, but I only do it for a few seconds, and then I re-engage, and I used to think that it was like a relaxation of sorts, but inevitably, I feel like it's a different way to-

没有人会怀疑我是这样，但我只做了几秒钟，然后我重新投入，我曾经认为这就像某种放松，但不可避免的是，我觉得这是一种不同的方式——

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

the conversation takes a different direction.

谈话转向不同的方向。

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Is that more or less what you're talking about?

这或多或少是你所说的吗？

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

Yeah.

是的。

That's a colossal shift.

这是一个巨大的转变。

Incidentally, the corpus callos- You can shift from the left into the right about 100 milliseconds.

顺便说一句，胼胝体 - 您可以从左侧移动到右侧大约 100 毫秒。

So essentially, you have to be in one hemisphere or the other.

所以本质上，你必须在一个半球或另一个半球。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Ah.

啊。

So if I'm listening very carefully-

所以如果我非常仔细地听的话——

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

to exactly what you said, and I'm tracking everything you said, like we're in a courtroom situation-

正是你所说的，我正在追踪你所说的一切，就像我们在法庭上一样——

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

then my right brain is suppressed.

然后我的右脑就被抑制了。

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

Okay.

好的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Is that right?

是这样吗？

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

Good feat.

好成绩。

Now watch where I go here.

现在看我去哪里。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Okay.

好的。

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

The right hemisphere is dominant for attention.

右半球主导注意力。

Okay?

好的？

This baby and this mother, literally, she's focusing her attention on that baby's face, tone of voice.

这个婴儿和这个母亲，从字面上看，她把注意力集中在婴儿的脸、语气上。

But there are two different types of attention, strong neuroscience to show this.

但有两种不同类型的注意力，强大的神经科学证明了这一点。

The left brain operates by narrow attention, narrowly focused attention.

左脑通过狭隘的注意力、狭隘的注意力来运作。

The best example of narrowly focused attention is you are following my words one after the other.

注意力集中的最好例子就是你一个接一个地听从我的话。

But there's another type of attention which is used by the right brain, which is called wide-ranging attention, which comes right out of Freud, which he also called, maybe you'll remember this, evenly suspended attention.

但是还有另一种类型的注意力是由右脑使用的，这就是所谓的广泛注意力，它直接出自弗洛伊德，他也称之为，也许你会记得这个，均匀悬浮的注意力。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I haven't heard that, but that's beautiful.

我没听说过，但这很漂亮。

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

It's the same thing, which is much wider than that, and that form of attention is the form of attention that the right brain has.

这是同一件事，但范围比这要广泛得多，这种注意力形式就是右脑所具有的注意力形式。

Because the attention at that point in time is not only of what's coming from the outside, but also attention to what's happening in the inside, my own inside, the changes in my own physiology at that point in time also.

因为那个时间点的注意力不仅是来自外部的事情，而且还关注内部发生的事情，我自己的内部，我自己生理机能在那个时间点的变化。

So yes, there are these two different forms of attention, and essentially, the only way someone who was just narrow all of the time, let's take a personality who just lives in the left hemisphere.

所以，是的，注意力有两种不同的形式，从本质上讲，这是一个一直狭隘的人的唯一方式，让我们以一个只生活在左半球的人格为例。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

A hyper-linear person.

一个超线性的人。

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

Exactly.

正是如此。

Hyper-logical, hyper-rational, cannot really see the big picture, but literally that kind of a situation.

超逻辑、超理性，无法真正看到大局，但确实是这种情况。

So essentially, that kind of a person is always looking at the narrow aspects of it and cannot see the broader context.

所以本质上，这种人总是只看到狭隘的一面，而看不到更广阔的背景。

Because there's a context that's being set up.

因为正在建立一个上下文。

Right now, between you and I, there's also a context that's being set up, and that context also has to it a kind of a feeling of safety and trust as we literally just go off wherever our thoughts are- With some idea that literally you will be able to follow that, and you'll come back with me at the same time.

现在，在你和我之间，还有一个正在建立的背景，这个背景还必须有一种安全感和信任感，因为我们实际上只是去往我们的想法所在——带着某种想法，你实际上将能够遵循它，并且你会同时和我一起回来。

So the context, the emotional atmosphere between us changes when you go left into the right like that.

因此，当你像这样从左向右时，我们之间的背景和情感氛围就会发生变化。

Point here is that it used to be thought that the only way you could understand the brain was by looking more intrapsychically into one brain.

这里的要点是，过去人们认为了解大脑的唯一方法是从内心深处观察一个大脑。

If you understood how one brain worked and everything was intrapsychic, but then there's the interpersonal part of it.

如果你了解大脑如何运作，一切都是内在的，那么还有人际交往的部分。

And so essentially what we're moving now from a one-person intrapsychic psychology to a two-person interpersonal psychology.

因此，从本质上讲，我们现在正在从一个人的内心心理学转向两个人的人际心理学。

You see what I mean by two person?

你明白我说的两个人是什么意思吗？

I got the mother here, I got the baby there.

我把母亲带到了这里，我把孩子带到了那里。

I got the patient here, I got the therapist there, and between them literally are going back and forth at all periods of time, right brain to right brain communications underneath the conversation.

我让病人在这里，我让治疗师在那里，他们之间实际上在任何时间段都在来回，在对话的基础上进行右脑与右脑的交流。

And so neuroimaging, hyperscanning, neuroimaging, you're familiar with hyperscanning.

神经影像学、超扫描、神经影像学，你对超扫描很熟悉。

Another paradigm-shifting thing that is occurring now in neuroimaging.

神经影像学领域现在正在发生另一个范式转变的事情。

For the first time, we can now scan two people, NIRS, EEG, whatever you want, while they are in the middle of a basic interpersonal interaction, a non-verbal interaction between the two of them.

现在，我们第一次可以在两个人正在进行基本的人际互动（两人之间的非语言互动）时，对他们进行近红外光谱（NIRS）、脑电图（EEG）扫描，无论你想要什么。

These studies have now been done, and what they did was that they found is that the two brains, especially when they are into emotional states and when they are looking at each other face-to-face and they're concentrating literally on how to empathically be with that person, et cetera, emotions, so to speak, they find that the right brain of one will synchronize with the right brain of the other.

这些研究现在已经完成了，他们发现，两个大脑，特别是当他们处于情绪状态时，当他们面对面地看着对方时，他们实际上专注于如何与那个人共情，等等，情感，可以这么说，他们发现一个人的右脑会与另一个人的右脑同步。

And the part of the right brain that synchronizes with the other is the right temporoparietal junction.

右脑与另一脑同步的部分是右颞顶交界处。

A lot of evidence now on the right temporoparietal junction.

现在有很多证据表明右侧颞顶交界处。

I said right brain to right brain.

我说右脑对右脑。

So now, the eyes are coming.

所以现在，眼睛来了。

And remember, direct eye connection really is the most powerful form of communication.

请记住，直接的眼神交流确实是最有力的沟通形式。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I always remind people these are two little bits of brain outside your cranial vault.

我总是提醒人们，这些是颅顶外的两个小脑区。

As weird as that might seem, they are two bits of brain.

尽管这看起来很奇怪，但它们是大脑的两个部分。

Your retina is central nervous system, and that's about as close as you can get to looking at somebody's brain state as anything.

你的视网膜是中枢神经系统，这几乎是你能看到的最接近某人大脑状态的东西。

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

Well, the eyes are being controlled by the autonomic nervous system.

嗯，眼睛是由自主神经系统控制的。

So you have an autonomic nervous system, the autonomic nervous system synchrony here, so to speak.

所以你有一个自主神经系统，可以说，这里的自主神经系统是同步的。

But essentially, what's occurring at this point in time, face, voice, gesture.

但本质上，是此时此刻发生的事情、面孔、声音、手势。

The face is processed in the posterior parts of the right hemisphere, that face processing.

脸部的加工是在右半球的后部，即脸部加工。

Right hemisphere, face processing.

右半球，脸部处理。

The posterior parts of the right hemisphere, the sensory areas of the right hemisphere process the voice, the melody of the voice, the tone of the voice.

右半球的后部，右半球的感觉区域处理声音，声音的旋律，声音的语气。

That's different than the semantics of the voice.

这与声音的语义不同。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So this is prosody.

所以这就是韵律。

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

This is prosody.

这是韵律。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

This is what the Italians do so well.

这就是意大利人做得很好的地方。

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

Right.

对。

And the posterior parts of the right hemisphere also will process gesture and tactile.

右半球的后部也会处理手势和触觉。

Okay?

好的？

All of that comes together, is integrated together in the right temporoparietal junction.

所有这些都聚集在一起，在右侧颞顶交界处整合在一起。

So when two people literally are empathically synchronizing with each other, when we are sharing the same emotional state, the therapist patient says at this point in time, "My God, it's rage.

因此，当两个人确实彼此共情同步时，当我们分享相同的情绪状态时，治疗师患者此时会说：“我的上帝，这是愤怒。

I never realized it was anger." And at that point in time, the empathic therapist who's synchronizing, we are both literally now in that right temporoparietal junction.

我从来没有意识到那是愤怒。”在那个时间点，共情治疗师正在同步，我们现在都处于正确的颞顶交界处。

But the right temporoparietal junction is what sends the communications and receives the communications.

但右侧颞顶交界处负责发送和接收信息。

Got me here?

找到我了吗？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

So essentially, that's where our linkage is, and we are now literally in a right brain to right brain communication.

所以本质上，这就是我们的联系所在，我们现在确实处于右脑与右脑的交流中。

And what they found was during a real psychotherapy situation, where the patient comes in and they're there because they have interpersonal relationships problems and emotional problems, and they're face-to-face, and they're eye-to-eye, and they're tracking each others like that, you'll find that synchronization.

他们发现，在真正的心理治疗情境中，病人进来，他们在那里，因为他们有人际关系问题和情绪问题，他们面对面，他们目光对视，他们像这样互相跟踪，你会发现同步。

So the synchronization between my right temporoparietal and your right temporoparietal is a right brain to right brain communication.

所以我的右颞顶叶和你的右颞顶叶之间的同步是右脑到右脑的交流。

That right brain to right brain communication is always occurring in that kind of a context.

右脑与右脑的交流总是发生在这种背景下。

And therefore, the most important new change in psychoanalysis is that the unconscious just is more than just happening at dreams.

因此，精神分析中最重要的新变化是，无意识不仅仅是发生在梦中。

It's happening at all points because the unconscious we now know is a relational unconscious.

它在各个方面都在发生，因为我们现在知道的无意识是一种关系无意识。

It communicates with another relational unconscious, right brain to right brain.

它与另一个关系无意识、右脑与右脑进行交流。

And this has really changed so much now in our understanding about what psychotherapy is about also.

现在我们对心理治疗的理解也确实发生了很大的变化。

Incidentally, I want to point out, the major change mechanism in psychotherapy now is not insight.

顺便指出，现在心理治疗的主要变化机制不是顿悟。

It's not cognitive insight.

这不是认知洞察力。

It's more the ability to have an emotionally laden conversation with another human being and to make emotional connections with another human being, which is why the therapeutic relationship really is the factor of the change.

它更多的是与另一个人进行充满情感的对话并与另一个人建立情感联系的能力，这就是为什么治疗关系确实是改变的因素。

And that's very different than the old days was your unconscious is here, the analyst is there.

这与过去非常不同，你的无意识在这里，分析师在那里。

I'm now going to interpret what you're doing as you are sinking down into the right, but I'm going to stay up left and interpret it.

我现在将解释当你向右侧下沉时你正在做什么，但我将留在左侧并解释它。

That's why there was a real limitation to that, and that's why psychoanalysis really changed now also to a face-to-face contact, not just the couch also.

这就是为什么存在真正的限制，这就是为什么精神分析现在真正改变为面对面的接触，而不仅仅是沙发上的接触。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Fascinating, and makes total sense based on the newer imaging tools, revealing synchrony, et cetera.

令人着迷，并且基于较新的成像工具、揭示同步性等完全有意义。

I have two questions that can be asked in parallel.

我有两个问题可以同时提出。

Music and dogs.

音乐和狗。

Why music and dogs?

为什么音乐和狗？

Well, some of what you're describing reminds me of the state shift that occurs when I hear particular pieces of music for which I'm not paying attention to the lyrics, or in some cases, the lyrics matter.

嗯，你所描述的一些内容让我想起当我听到某些我没有注意歌词的特定音乐片段时发生的状态转变，或者在某些情况下，歌词很重要。

I'm listening, but they don't make any sense.

我在听，但他们没有任何意义。

If they were read out as a paragraph, it wouldn't make any sense, but it feels like there's some fundamental truth there.

如果把它们作为一个段落来读，那就没有任何意义，但感觉里面有一些基本的真理。

So I could state specific musical preferences, but it's highly individual.

所以我可以说出具体的音乐偏好，但这是非常个人化的。

So for some people, it's classical music.

所以对于某些人来说，它是古典音乐。

For other people, it's music that contains lyrics.

对于其他人来说，它是包含歌词的音乐。

But there's this feeling like, yes, there's a truth there, and I feel that truth even though the content of the words...

但有一种感觉，是的，那里有一个真理，而且我感觉到这个真理，即使这些话的内容......

I couldn't help myself.

我情不自禁。

Like a Bob Dylan song, for instance.

例如，就像鲍勃·迪伦的歌曲一样。

He certainly could be considered a poet, right?

他当然可以被视为诗人，对吧？

And if you read the lyrics just as a paragraph, you'd be like, "This is nonsense." But the way that it's sung, the meaning behind it, the timbre in the voice, the prosody, et cetera, and presumably the emotion that he was feeling at the time when the music was recorded, communicates with us, and we enter a synchronous state.

如果你把歌词当作一个段落来读，你会说，“这是胡说八道。”但它的演唱方式、背后的意义、音色、韵律等等，大概还有他在录制音乐时所感受到的情感，都在与我们交流，我们就进入了同步状态。

And then in parallel to this, I mentioned dogs, where sure, they have a left brain and a right brain, but I think with animals generally, if they're domestic animals and we have a very close relationship to them, we can really feel a resonance with them, and presumably them with us.

与此同时，我提到了狗，当然，它们有左脑和右脑，但我认为一般来说，对于动物来说，如果它们是家畜并且我们与它们有非常密切的关系，我们真的可以感受到与它们的共鸣，想必它们与我们也有共鸣。

And, for anyone that's experienced it, some people might be chuckling now, but it's nothing short of profound.

而且，对于任何经历过它的人来说，有些人现在可能会咯咯地笑，但这绝对是深刻的。

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right?

对吗？

The extent to which we really feel like they see us and we see them, and there's a bond.

我们真的感觉他们看到了我们，我们也看到了他们，并且有一种联系。

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Clearly not the same magnitude as a parent-child bond, but nonetheless.

显然与亲子关系的程度不同，但仍然如此。

So music and dogs, do you think it's tapping into this same right temporal parietal structure?

那么音乐和狗，你认为它们会利用同样的右颞顶结构吗？

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

First of all, the right temporoparietal junction is the posterior, and the right orbitofrontal is the cortex.

首先，右侧颞顶交界处是后部，右侧眶额部是皮质。

So the whole right brain there, so to speak.

可以这么说，整个右脑都在那里。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Okay.

好的。

So we're basically going from anterior to posterior, just there's structures the whole way back.

所以我们基本上是从前到后，只是整个过程都有结构。

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

Yeah.

是的。

The orbitofrontal is the regulation part of it.

眶额是其调节部分。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm.

嗯。

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

The temporoparietal junction is the communication part of it.

颞顶交界处是其沟通部分。

So the whole key is the communication of emotion and the regulation of emotion.

所以整个关键是情绪的沟通和情绪的调节。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Where is the surrender switch?

投降开关在哪里？

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

The surrender is the callosal switch out of the left into the right.

投降是胼胝体从左侧切换到右侧。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So not so much paying attention to the content of the words-

所以没那么在意文字的内容——

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

否

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

the logic behind them, the logical flaws that might exist, the analytic part, but rather how the words sound, how the words feel, literally.

它们背后的逻辑，可能存在的逻辑缺陷，分析部分，而是单词的发音，单词的字面感觉如何。

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

Yes.

是的。

First of all, there has been a lot of neuroscience done on music, and incidentally, most of that is right brain, showing right brain activation in music.

首先，已经有很多关于音乐的神经科学，顺便说一句，其中大部分是右脑，显示音乐中右脑的激活。

The key here, even more than that, it's particular music to me.

这里的关键，更重要的是，它对我来说是特殊的音乐。

It has a particular meaning to me, subjectivity.

它对我来说有特殊的意义：主观性。

And a lot shows that music is essentially a mechanism of affect regulation.

大量证据表明，音乐本质上是一种情感调节机制。

But I want to suggest to you that pets are also a mechanism of affect regulation.

但我想告诉你，宠物也是一种情绪调节机制。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Dogs everywhere smiling.

到处都是狗在微笑。

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

Absolutely.

绝对的。

And maybe by the same things.

也许是同样的事情。

I want to suggest, I think that the communication between dogs, and I've had four dogs myself, is that literally it's tactile.

我想建议的是，我认为狗之间的交流（我自己养过四只狗）实际上是触觉的。

It's the touch of that animal.

这是那只动物的触摸。

It's the prosody of the voice because literally that dog understands the prosody of the voice.

这是声音的韵律，因为从字面上看，狗理解声音的韵律。

And also, to some extent, I think they can read our faces.

而且，在某种程度上，我认为他们可以读懂我们的表情。

But more than that, there's one other sense which I haven't brought up, which is part of human relationship, and that's smell.

但除此之外，还有一种我没有提到的感觉，它是人际关系的一部分，那就是气味。

Okay, and this is overlooked in human relationship.

好吧，这一点在人际关系中被忽视了。

But in real intimate contacts between human beings, the smell is really a key there.

但在人与人之间真正的亲密接触中，气味确实是一个关键。

Think about sexual arousal.

想想性唤起。

So dogs are really very strong on our smell, et cetera.

所以狗对我们的气味等确实非常敏感。

But if attachment is a reunion after a separation, you come home, there's that dog sitting there literally, and immediately you're down-regulating the day.

但如果依恋是分离后的重聚，当你回到家时，那只狗确实坐在那儿，你立刻就会降低这一天的调节。

You have now taken off the whole left hemisphere and our whole stresses of all of that, and you're now shifting left into right.

现在你已经卸下了整个左半球以及我们所有这些的全部压力，并且你现在正在从左移到右。

And we use the mechanisms that is available to do that, and music is one of the ways to do that.

我们使用可用的机制来做到这一点，而音乐就是做到这一点的方法之一。

So in some sense, music is an auto-regulation, although music can be live music, and then it's more than that.

所以从某种意义上来说，音乐是一种自动调节，虽然音乐可以是现场音乐，但还不止于此。

So that's the case.

就是这样。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Or playing music with others.

或者与他人一起演奏音乐。

This is something I'm incapable of because I have no musical ability.

这是我做不到的，因为我没有音乐天赋。

But playing music with others, you can see that when we talk about the chemistry of a band, it's so incredible to witness that and then to feel it en masse with thousands maybe of other people.

但与其他人一起演奏音乐时，你会发现，当我们谈论一支乐队的化学反应时，亲眼目睹这一点，然后与成千上万的其他人一起感受它，真是令人难以置信。

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

Yeah.

是的。

There have been studies to show that during a performance, there is a synchrony, there are synchronized states between the performer and the audience.

有研究表明，在表演过程中，表演者和观众之间存在同步性，存在同步状态。

And incidentally, you can have thousands of people literally in that same synchronized state at that point in time here.

顺便说一句，您可以让成千上万的人在此时处于相同的同步状态。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You mentioned earlier Stephen Porges's work.

您之前提到过斯蒂芬·波吉斯的工作。

And we know that brain and body are connected in both directions.

我们知道大脑和身体是双向相连的。

And I should know this, but I don't know if the right brain has preferential communication with the parasympathetic or sympathetic or other aspects of, well, vagus is parasympathetic, but I think it's probably both.

我应该知道这一点，但我不知道右脑是否优先与副交感神经或交感神经或迷走神经的其他方面进行交流，嗯，迷走神经是副交感神经，但我认为可能两者都是。

I think the more we discover about the vagus, it's likely to be mixed, sympathetic, parasympathetic.

我认为我们对迷走神经了解得越多，它很可能是混合的、交感神经的、副交感神经的。

But I'll catch some heat for that, but that's okay.

但我会为此感到愤怒，但没关系。

But bodily sensing is a real thing.

但身体感知是真实存在的。

There are ways that our diaphragm and our core relax-

有一些方法可以让我们的横膈膜和核心放松——

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

when we're happy.

当我们快乐的时候。

All of this is obvious to anyone.

这一切对任何人来说都是显而易见的。

But I'm just curious how right brain links up with bodily states.

但我只是好奇右脑如何与身体状态联系起来。

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

The right brain is more connected into the body than the left brain.

右脑比左脑与身体的联系更多。

Incidentally, do you know the name Iain McGilchrist?

顺便问一下，你知道伊恩·麦吉尔克里斯特这个名字吗？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yes.

是的。

I know the name, and many people have commented on our YouTube channel that I need to talk to Iain.

我知道这个名字，很多人在我们的 YouTube 频道上评论说我需要和伊恩谈谈。

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

Um.

嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I have gotten that far, but I've been busy.

我已经走到这一步了，但我一直很忙。

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

Get him.

抓住他。

Get him.

抓住他。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Great.

太棒了。

Iain, we'll send you an invite.

伊恩，我们会向您发送邀请。

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

Yeah.

是的。

There has been ongoing dialogue between us for some time.

我们之间的对话已经有一段时间了。

But Iain talks about that the right brain literally is much more connected into the body, and incidentally, is also more dominant for will.

但伊恩谈到，右脑确实与身体的联系更加紧密，顺便说一句，右脑在意志方面也更占主导地位。

Unconscious will is more important than conscious will, which you kind of at the very beginning, we were talking about the left versus the right.

无意识的意志比有意识的意志更重要，一开始我们就在谈论左派与右派。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah, so I'm curious as to how people can start to sense these right brain, left brain shifts.

是的，所以我很好奇人们如何开始感知这些右脑、左脑的转变。

We talked about how paying a little less attention to the content of words and a little bit more to how a conversation is feeling, independent of the word content, might be part of it.

我们讨论了如何少关注单词内容，多关注对话的感受，独立于单词内容，可能是其中的一部分。

We hear a lot these days about how body posture matters.

这些天我们听到很多关于身体姿势的重要性。

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Like if people are closed up with their arms crossed, I don't know.

就像人们双臂交叉时封闭起来一样，我不知道。

But sometimes I'm just a little chilly, so I'll cross my arms, and sometimes I'll cross my arms and lean in, and I know that I'm in a much more attuned state.

但有时我只是有点冷，所以我会交叉双臂，有时我会交叉双臂并靠在身上，我知道我处于更加协调的状态。

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So I don't put too much weight on that, but maybe I should put more weight on that.

所以我不会太重视这一点，但也许我应该更重视这一点。

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

What are your thoughts?

你有什么想法？

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

Yeah.

是的。

There's a classical work by an analyst by the name of Manuel Hammer, and he was talking about how to reach the affect.

一位名叫曼努埃尔·哈默（Manuel Hammer）的分析师写了一本经典著作，他在谈论如何达到情感。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

And what he suggested is that there are certain moments in the session when literally my body, in order to pick up the communications of the patient, I lean back.

他建议的是，在治疗过程中的某些时刻，我的身体实际上会向后倾斜，以便接收患者的信息。

I'm not leaning forward into it.

我不会倾向于这样做。

I lean back and let the atmosphere literally come over me, so to speak.

可以这么说，我向后靠去，让气氛笼罩着我。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Oh, I love this.

哦，我喜欢这个。

Forgive me for interrupting, but I love this because people, especially on social media, they take a piece of information like if you're leaned back, you're disengaged.

请原谅我打断，但我喜欢这个，因为人们，尤其是在社交媒体上，他们会接受一些信息，比如如果你向后靠，你就会脱离。

You're leaned forward, you're engaged.

你身体前倾，你很投入。

But you could also just turn it right around and say, "If you're leaned forward, you're impending."

但你也可以把它向右转并说：“如果你向前倾，你就即将到来。”

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And then the person doesn't have space.

然后这个人就没有空间了。

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

All right.

好吧。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And so frankly, it becomes a bunch of BS.

坦白说，这简直就是一堆废话。

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

But notice here what I'm talking about, what the therapist is attempting to do is to make an emotional connection, an empathic connection.

但请注意我在这里所说的，治疗师试图做的是建立情感联系，移情联系。

And in order to make an empathic connection, you're leaning back.

为了建立移情联系，你需要向后靠。

You're leaning back, and literally, as you lean back, all of a sudden, you're able to pick up things and hear things that you didn't see before, so to speak.

你向后靠，从字面上看，当你向后靠时，突然间，你能够拾取东西并听到你以前没有看到的东西，可以这么说。

And frequently what happens when you're in an emotional connection like that, images will come to your mind, images which really represent the emotional experience that the other is having.

当你处于这样的情感联系中时，经常会发生这样的事情，图像会浮现在你的脑海中，这些图像真正代表了对方正在经历的情感体验。

And at that point in time also, what you'll find is that just as you're picking up that person's image, he's picking up your personal image.

也在那个时间点，你会发现，就像你拾取那个人的图像一样，他也在拾取你的个人图像。

And what Hammer says is that what we have here is something that's like an affective wireless between the two, because it's going back and forth between the two of us, just like a right brain to right brain communication, affective bio.

哈默所说的是，我们这里所拥有的东西就像两者之间的情感无线，因为它在我们两个之间来回传递，就像右脑到右脑的交流，情感生物。

Freud said the human unconscious acts like a receptor, and it picks up the communications of the unconscious of another human being.

弗洛伊德说，人类的无意识就像一个受体，它接收另一个人的无意识的通讯。

Freud said literally human beings can pick up the unconscious without it going through the conscious mind.

弗洛伊德说，从字面上看，人类可以在不经过意识的情况下拾取无意识。

So again, in that kind of a context, that all makes sense.

所以，在这种背景下，这一切都是有道理的。

The other thing I want to say about all of these behaviors that are going on now when there is an emotional communication, the key is spontaneous behaviors.

我想说的另一件事是，关于现在在情感交流时发生的所有这些行为，关键是自发行为。

Spontaneous.

自发的。

Not thought-out behaviors, spontaneous behaviors.

不是经过深思熟虑的行为，而是自发的行为。

When there's spontaneous behaviors, there's more trust in them being spontaneous in the first place.

当存在自发行为时，人们首先会更加相信它们是自发的。

But there's not a mind that is attempting to present anything.

但没有一个头脑试图呈现任何东西。

And when you have two people revealing their spontaneous behaviors to each other, even if they're not sure how they're going to be affected, that also is a matter for synchrony.

当两个人向对方透露他们自发的行为时，即使他们不确定自己会受到怎样的影响，这也是同步的问题。

In order for there to be synchrony, there has to be spontaneous, two-way communications, turn-taking communications.

为了实现同步，必须有自发的、双向的、轮流的沟通。

And incidentally, as we talk about this conversation, what is set up in the attachment between the mother and the infant, the infant makes a cry, the mother responds, is that they are now taking turns.

顺便说一句，当我们谈论这个对话时，母亲和婴儿之间的依恋建立起来，婴儿哭了，母亲回应了，他们现在正在轮流。

There's turn-taking behavior.

有轮流行为。

And in a good relationship, what you find is more or less smooth turn-taking behaviors.

在一段良好的关系中，你会发现或多或少流畅的轮流行为。

And incidentally, you and I, who have never met before, are not doing too badly in these spontaneous turn-taking behaviors between us.

顺便说一句，你和我，素未谋面，在我们之间这些自发的轮流行为中表现得还不错。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I appreciate you saying that.

我很欣赏你这么说。

I feel the same way.

我也有同样的感觉。

Text messaging has become a dominant mode of communication these days.

如今，短信已成为主要的沟通方式。

I've hosted a few guests expert in emotions in the brain, Lisa Feldman Barrett, for instance, and others.

我接待过几位大脑情感专家的嘉宾，例如丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特（Lisa Feldman Barrett）和其他人。

And she and others have talked about how the emoji-fication of emotions, just like a smiley face or a crying face, or, "Oh, goodness," or, "Mind blown." These things are convenient, as is shorthand text, lack of punctuation, et cetera.

她和其他人讨论了如何用表情符号来表达情感，就像笑脸或哭脸，或者“哦，天哪”或“心碎”。这些东西很方便，比如速记文本、缺少标点符号等等。

But today's conversation also highlights the extent to which text messaging is pretty much devoid of most everything that you're talking about.

但今天的谈话也凸显了短信在很大程度上缺乏你所谈论的大部分内容。

A green bubble or a blue bubble.

绿色气泡或蓝色气泡。

Seen or not seen, read or not read, depending on your settings.

看到或没看到、已读或未读，取决于您的设置。

The latency, the turn-taking.

延迟，轮流。

Sometimes people layer in multiple conversations, and you're going back and forth about a couple of different things, and then your food order comes.

有时，人们会进行多次对话，而您会来回讨论几件不同的事情，然后您的食物订单就来了。

Sure, the human brain can handle this, but this seems either not good neutral, that is, or bad for building and reinforcing communication.

当然，人脑可以处理这个问题，但这似乎要么不好中立，要么不利于建立和加强沟通。

It actually concerns me, but of course, I'm now 49, so I can say things like, "Now that I'm 49, I can say things like that." But it concerns me, because I think that you can imagine the young brain and an older brain essentially not being good at interpersonal dynamics because of text messaging.

这实际上与我有关，但当然，我现在已经 49 岁了，所以我可以说这样的话，“现在我已经 49 岁了，我可以说这样的话。”但这让我担心，因为我认为你可以想象年轻的大脑和年长的大脑由于短信而本质上不擅长人际关系动态。

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

I agree.

我同意。

First of all, let me mention that one of Ian's ideas is that essentially, the left hemisphere is becoming more and more dominant today, not only in this country.

首先，我要提一下，伊恩的想法之一是，从本质上讲，左半球今天变得越来越占主导地位，不仅在这个国家。

And he sees that as really as a huge problem, because the title of his book is "The Master and His Emissary," and the emissary, which is the left brain, betrays the master.

他认为这确实是一个巨大的问题，因为他的书的标题是“大师和他的使者”，而使者，即左脑，背叛了大师。

So he sees that one of the problems we're dealing with right now is that the left hemisphere is there, and that these right hemispheres, even metaphors are problematic.

所以他看到我们现在正在处理的问题之一是左半球在那里，而这些右半球，甚至隐喻都是有问题的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So I have a rule.

所以我有一个规则。

I don't argue over text.

我不争论文字。

I don't like to argue over text.

我不喜欢争论文字。

I don't like to argue, period.

我不喜欢争论，就这样。

I'll pick up the phone.

我会拿起电话。

I'm of the generation where we called one another.

我属于我们互相称呼的一代。

I find text to be completely devoid of what I'm really seeking in terms of connection.

我发现文本完全没有我真正寻求的联系。

I know there's an entire generation of people that grew up communicating mainly through short message.

我知道有一整代人主要通过短信长大。

Jonathan Haidt, the author of "The Anxious Generation," has been encouraging young kids to put away their phones and get out and interact more, encouraging parents to let their kids be more what they call free-range kids and do this kind of thing, arguing that there's far fewer dangers in the physical world than there are in the online world for young brains.

《焦虑的一代》一书的作者乔纳森·海特（Jonathan Haidt）一直鼓励年幼的孩子放下手机，多出去交流，鼓励父母让孩子成为所谓的自由放养的孩子，做这样的事情，他认为，对于年轻的大脑来说，现实世界中的危险远比网络世界中的危险少。

He makes a convincing argument.

他提出了令人信服的论点。

For those of us that are seeking to have better connection, maybe even do some healing of the right brain circuitry that you've been talking about today, do you think that there's a hierarchy of effectiveness such that, text would be perhaps at the bottom, voice memo maybe next level up, I'm thinking here, a phone call.

对于我们这些寻求更好连接的人来说，甚至可能对您今天讨论的右脑电路进行一些治疗，您是否认为存在一个有效性层次结构，例如文本可能位于底部，语音备忘录可能位于下一级，我在这里想，电话。

There was a time when we wrote handwritten letters, and those felt very meaningful.

曾经有一段时间，我们手写信，感觉很有意义。

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

Sure.

当然。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I kept handwritten letters-

我保留了手写的信——

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

Sure

当然可以

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

from people that I cared about and that cared about me.

来自我关心的人和关心我的人。

The handwritten letter sort of proves that it doesn't have to be a real-time exchange.

这封手写的信在某种程度上证明了它不一定是实时交换。

But there's something about handwriting.

但手写有一些东西。

A typewritten letter, by today's standards, would also be a significant thing.

按照今天的标准，一封打字的信也是一件很重要的事情。

But, there really seems to be something special about a letter, a face-to-face conversation.

但是，一封信、一次面对面的谈话似乎确实有一些特别的地方。

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

Right.

对。

In terms of literally the point of the letter and the attempt of the letter literally was to make a connection.

从字面上看，这封信的要点和这封信的尝试实际上是建立联系。

I can remember in my childhood going away to camp, and we would write letters back and forth, and the words that were being used there were literally about making a connection and filling you in, which also meant that I had to reflect about myself and what was happening with me and how I felt about that, and I was sharing all of that with another person.

我记得小时候去露营，我们会来回写信，那里使用的词语字面上是关于建立联系和填充你的信息，这也意味着我必须反思自己以及我身上发生的事情以及我对此的感受，我正在与另一个人分享所有这些。

That has really gone into the background, and things have become much more impersonal.

这确实已经成为背景，事情变得更加客观。

But I want to point out that for a certain type of personality, texting fits perfectly.

但我想指出的是，对于某种类型的性格来说，发短信非常适合。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

These are people that walk around with left brains that are hypertrophied?

这些人走路时左脑肥大吗？

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

People living in the left.

住在左边的人。

That's right.

这是正确的。

I just want to point out there are other ways, literally, of feeding the right brain of what it needs, and one of the other ways also is going out into the world, is traveling, is being in nature, sharing those kinds of things also.

我只是想指出，从字面上看，还有其他方法可以满足右脑的需求，其中一种方法就是走进世界，旅行，置身于大自然中，也可以分享这些东西。

Those are also in addition to the in-person situations here.

这些也是除了这里的现场情况之外的。

But, yeah, we're seeing changes here, and I'm not so sure too many of these are good.

但是，是的，我们在这里看到了变化，但我不太确定其中有太多是好的。

Let me throw out, I made a little list of the areas which are now being studied which are showing that clearly this is right brain dominance in these activities.

让我扔掉，我列出了一些现在正在研究的领域，这些领域清楚地表明，这些活动中右脑占主导地位。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Please share.

请分享。

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

Stop me at any point.

随时阻止我。

Essentially, the argument that I'm making in this new book on human nature is that the highest levels of human nature are in the right brain.

本质上，我在这本关于人性的新书中提出的论点是，人性的最高水平在于右脑。

So essentially, intuition.

所以本质上，直觉。

Now remember, intuition is there for all kinds of professions.

现在请记住，直觉适用于各种职业。

One of the things that a fireman gains over time is literally how to read a fire.

随着时间的推移，消防员获得的东西之一就是如何读懂火灾。

So intuition, purely right brain.

所以直觉，纯粹是右脑。

And intuition literally is drawing on body sensations also, et cetera.

直觉实际上也利用了身体感觉等等。

Imagery.

图像。

Creativity.

创造力。

Lot of evidence showing creativity, the ability to processing something novel and something new.

很多证据表明创造力、处理新颖事物的能力。

Metaphors.

隐喻。

Imagination.

想像力。

Studies.

研究。

Humor.

幽默。

Music.

音乐。

Poetry.

诗。

Art.

艺术。

Morality.

道德。

Compassion.

同情。

Spirituality.

灵性。

And the best for last, love.

最好的留到最后，爱。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

That's a spectacular list, making the right brain circuitry, at least among the most exciting circuits.

这是一个令人惊叹的列表，使右脑电路至少跻身于最令人兴奋的电路之列。

Certainly important circuits.

当然是重要的电路。

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

I threw an ad for the next book.

我为下一本书投放了广告。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I love "Right Brain Psychotherapy." Love it.

我喜欢“右脑心理治疗”。爱它。

I own a hardcover copy.

我拥有一本精装本。

I've owned it for a couple of years now.

我已经拥有它几年了。

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Highly recommend it.

强烈推荐它。

We'll put links to your books in the show note captions.

我们将在节目注释标题中添加指向您图书的链接。

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Get "The Development of the Unconscious Mind" also.

另请参阅“潜意识的发展”。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Okay, will do.

好的，会做的。

What are some activities that allow us to, quote-unquote, drop into our right brain circuitry a bit more?

有哪些活动可以让我们更多地进入右脑回路？

One that immediately leapt to mind, as you mentioned nature and interacting with nature, and we were talking about music, is walking.

当你提到自然和与自然互动，我们正在谈论音乐时，我立即想到的一个就是步行。

And earlier we talked about, you educated us on rather, this notion of wide range attention.

早些时候我们谈到，您教育了我们这种广泛关注的概念。

This evenly suspended attention that is associated with the right brain, this kind of widening of gaze as opposed to narrow gaze and narrow attention that is associated with left brain circuitry.

这种均匀悬置的注意力与右脑相关，这种扩大的凝视与与左脑回路相关的狭窄凝视和狭隘注意力相反。

When we're out in nature, and when we're ambulating, when we're walking, provided we're not looking at our phone, one hopes, or looking for something specific like a bird that we've spotted, we tend to be in panoramic vision.

当我们在大自然中行走时，当我们行走时，只要我们不看手机，或者寻找特定的东西，比如我们发现的一只鸟，我们往往会处于全景视野中。

I'm a vision scientist, so I can't help myself.

我是一名视觉科学家，所以我无法控制自己。

What we call magnocellular vision.

我们称之为大细胞视觉。

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Sure.

当然。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

These like big pixels.

这些就像大像素。

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

I'm aware.

我知道。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah, taking it all in.

是的，把这一切都考虑在内。

And it's more spherical than kind of a cone of attention.

它比注意力锥体更像球形。

I would imagine that might be more right brain associated.

我想这可能与右脑更相关。

What are some things that you, if you, suggest to your patients?

如果您有的话，您会向您的患者建议哪些事情？

Like, "Hey, until our next session..." Do you encourage them to journal, free associate journal, to listen to music, to take walks?

就像，“嘿，直到我们的下一次会议......”你是否鼓励他们写日记，免费副日记，听音乐，散步？

Or do you restrict the activation of this right brain circuitry to the session and then let it just show up as it were?

或者你是否将右脑电路的激活限制在会话中，然后让它按原样显示？

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

So you let them sort of just default-

所以你让他们默认-

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

to what's happening there.

那里发生的事情。

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Two points here.

这里有两点。

First of all, on therapy.

首先，在治疗上。

I think there's been too much of an emphasis on technique in therapy.

我认为治疗中过于强调技术。

And really what the right brain research is showing is that it's the right brain process that's the key here more than the technique.

事实上，右脑研究表明，右脑过程比技术更重要。

And so, that being the case, due to my own training, if psychotherapy has shown to be more effective in making long-term changes, and even changes after the treatment is over, than other forms of therapy like CBT is.

因此，既然如此，根据我自己的训练，如果心理治疗已被证明比其他形式的治疗（如 CBT）更能有效地实现长期改变，甚至治疗结束后的改变。

So I think there's been too much on that.

所以我认为这方面做得太多了。

On the matter of other experiences, the right brain is also dominant for processing novel information.

就其他经历而言，右脑在处理新信息方面也占主导地位。

Anytime something new comes up, the right picks it up first, and you get a burst of noradrenaline out of that also.

每当有新事物出现时，右手就会首先接受它，你也会从中得到一阵去甲肾上腺素。

So the pursuit of continuing to have a curious mind, and an open mind, I think is part of that, and seeking new experiences in different parts of the world.

因此，我认为追求继续保持好奇心和开放的心态是其中的一部分，并在世界不同地区寻求新的体验。

There's an economic piece to that also.

这也有一个经济因素。

But with new challenges, bring up new challenges that we have, and to essentially, if possible, feed curiosity.

但面对新的挑战，提出我们面临的新挑战，并尽可能地满足好奇心。

Curiosity.

好奇心。

Einstein even said something essentially along those lines there.

爱因斯坦甚至在那里说了一些基本上类似的话。

So new experiences with new people, new challenges, new places to see.

与新朋友、新挑战、新景点的新体验。

Travel, I think is one of those, and it turned out to be one of the great fortunate gifts that came from all of this.

我认为旅行就是其中之一，事实证明它是所有这一切带来的最幸运的礼物之一。

I was a therapist only for about 45 years, and I came into this late.

我作为治疗师只有大约 45 年的时间，而且我进入这个行业很晚。

I wrote this book late.

我写这本书很晚。

And literally, it's led me into new relationships and new friends.

从字面上看，它让我建立了新的关系和新的朋友。

Who starts making friends at 45 and 50 years old?

谁在45岁和50岁才开始交朋友？

But again, novelties, and sharing that, I think is also another way of doing that.

但同样，新颖性和分享，我认为也是做到这一点的另一种方式。

Plus, you said this, I'll repeat it, exercise.

另外，你说了这个，我再说一遍，锻炼。

Exercise is a key here.

锻炼是这里的关键。

I happen to be interested in energy and in mitochondria.

我碰巧对能量和线粒体感兴趣。

And there's a scientist, Naviaux at San Diego, who has written on this, and he's talking about the healing process.

圣地亚哥的一位科学家纳维奥克斯（Naviaux）就此撰写了文章，他正在谈论治愈过程。

And part of the healing process literally is exercise.

从字面上看，康复过程的一部分就是锻炼。

That's fundamental to healing of whatever physical and mental, and also restorative sleep.

这是身体和精神康复以及恢复性睡眠的基础。

So taking care of our body.

所以要照顾好我们的身体。

One of the things that we learn early in our experiences, mostly taught through the bodies, literally how to take care of our bodies.

我们在早期经历中学到的东西之一，主要是通过身体来教授的，字面意思是如何照顾我们的身体。

And as you're well aware of, you don't see that in certain pathologies.

正如您所清楚的那样，您在某些病症中看不到这一点。

And you also have certain, and I'm talking about more than just self-destructive, like cutting.

你也有一定的，我说的不仅仅是自我毁灭，比如切割。

But ultimately, the ability to be able to look inward and to be able to reflect back upon the self And to be able to see even what we want to see and don't want to see.

但最终，我们能够向内看，能够反思自我，甚至能够看到我们想看到和不想看到的东西。

Now, I want to just make a quick reference to defenses, because defenses can be adaptive and maladaptive, and they're important, and they're there.

现在，我想快速介绍一下防御，因为防御可以是适应性的，也可以是适应不良的，而且它们很重要，而且它们就在那里。

For example, we have defenses against overwhelming affect.

例如，我们有针对压倒性影响的防御措施。

Dissociation is a defense against overwhelming affect.

解离是对压倒性影响的防御。

But we also have a defense like repression, which is part of all human beings, and repression can be normal and adaptive, or it can be maladaptive.

但我们也有像压抑这样的防御，这是全人类的一部分，压抑可以是正常的、适应性的，也可以是适应不良的。

And it's maladaptive literally when the repression is very strong, essentially.

当镇压非常强烈时，它实际上是不适应的。

What you have there is that the left hemisphere is just shutting out anything coming over from the right.

你所看到的是，左半球只是阻挡了来自右半球的任何东西。

That's what repression is.

这就是镇压。

The left hemisphere is just shutting that all out.

左半球只是将这一切拒之门外。

So part of this is becoming more aware of those defenses that we have also.

因此，其中一部分就是更加了解我们所拥有的防御措施。

And I want to make this point also.

我也想指出这一点。

There are certain parts of ourselves which we cannot see.

我们自己的某些部分是我们看不见的。

We can only see them when we're getting feedback from somebody who knows us and can see those things in us, and even if at the time they're uncomfortable.

只有当我们从了解我们并能看到我们身上这些东西的人那里得到反馈时，我们才能看到它们，即使当时它们感到不舒服。

But we need that feedback from somebody we trust to be able to see, which is why this ability literally to completely change one's psychology is highly problematic, because remember, what you're attempting to do is to change the right brain.

但我们需要来自我们相信能够看到的人的反馈，这就是为什么这种完全改变一个人的心理的能力是非常有问题的，因为记住，你试图做的是改变右脑。

Which is why intimate relationships, close relationships, with whom we can share things is really a key there also.

这就是为什么亲密关系、亲密关系、我们可以与谁分享东西确实是一个关键。

Everybody has blind spots, and the way out of that, again, is trusting enough to take in negative feedback at times also.

每个人都有盲点，而摆脱盲点的方法就是足够信任，有时也接受负面反馈。

My own feeling is that when something hits me, let's say a disappointment hits me, and one of the things I learned early about my own emotion, because in order to study emotion, you have to study your own emotion, et cetera.

我自己的感觉是，当某些事情击中我时，比如说失望击中我，这是我很早就学到的关于自己情绪的事情之一，因为为了研究情绪，你必须研究你自己的情绪，等等。

That for me, literally, when something comes, I just let it come and move wherever it's going to go, literally, and feel it just at all of its intensity and strength.

对我来说，从字面上看，当某件事发生时，我只是让它来并移动到它要去的任何地方，字面上，并感受它的所有强度和力量。

And even after sharing it, literally letting it penetrate down, so to speak, and ultimately, at some point, it'll come back into another shape and a form.

即使在分享之后，实际上让它渗透下去，可以这么说，最终，在某个时刻，它会回到另一种形状和形式。

But our emotions are adaptive.

但我们的情绪是有适应性的。

And again, I want to point out, one of the major fallacies is that negative emotions are bad and positive emotions are good.

我想再次指出，主要的谬论之一是消极情绪是坏的，积极情绪是好的。

Positive emotions are good, manic emotions, et cetera.

积极的情绪是好的，狂躁的情绪等等。

Negative emotions are bad, loss.

负面情绪是不好的、失落的。

We are wired for all of these emotions because they have adaptive value, and we need to be able to be familiar with all of those different types of emotions that come our way in our lives.

我们对所有这些情绪都很敏感，因为它们具有适应性价值，并且我们需要能够熟悉生活中出现的所有不同类型的情绪。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I have a friend, he's a songwriter, and he told me that he has this process whereby he writes music every day.

我有一个朋友，他是一名词曲作者，他告诉我他每天都有这样的过程来创作音乐。

But he starts his day by painting or drawing.

但他的一天是从绘画开始的。

I think he's sold some paintings and drawings, but that's not his main vocation.

我认为他卖了一些油画和素描，但这不是他的主要职业。

But he told me that he draws and paints as a way to sort of grease the gears to songwriting.

但他告诉我，他绘画是一种为歌曲创作提供润滑的方式。

And then I learned that Joni Mitchell did this too, or something similar.

然后我了解到乔尼·米切尔也做了这个，或者类似的事情。

And I can't help but wonder whether or not they've unconsciously tapped into a mode of bringing right brain circuitry up in terms of its activity.

我不禁想知道他们是否已经无意识地进入了一种提高右脑回路活动程度的模式。

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Neither of them are known as painters or-

他们俩都不被称为画家或——

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

artists, but of course, musical artists, and quite accomplished ones at that.

艺术家，当然还有音乐艺术家，而且是在这方面颇有造诣的艺术家。

Does that sort of tool or technique make sense?

这种工具或技术有意义吗？

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

Yeah, it does.

是的，确实如此。

Essentially, it's creativity, which again, is the ability to see something novel and in a new way.

从本质上讲，它是创造力，也就是以新的方式看待新颖事物的能力。

To look at the same thing, but through new eyes.

用新的眼光看待同一件事。

So I think those are ways of literally, artists know literally how to surrender out of the left and get into the right, and you're seeing these mechanisms of surrender.

所以我认为这些都是字面上的方式，艺术家确实知道如何从左派投降并进入右派，并且你会看到这些投降机制。

But let me share something else more autobiographical about what you're saying.

但让我分享一些关于你所说的更具自传性的内容。

When I decided to, I knew that I was going to write something at a certain point in time.

当我决定这样做时，我知道我会在某个时间点写一些东西。

And so for 10 years, I went into a period of self-study.

就这样，我进入了10年的自学时期。

And literally, I went to a library, Cal State library near me, and I just went through the stacks.

从字面上看，我去了一家图书馆，我附近的加州州立大学图书馆，我只是浏览了书库。

Do you remember what it was like to go through the stacks?

你还记得翻阅书架的感觉吗？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I do.

我愿意。

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

And I started to move into psychology, into neurology, into chemistry.

我开始转向心理学、神经学、化学。

But then I found myself doing something else.

但后来我发现自己在做别的事情。

I went back to the piano.

我又回到钢琴前。

I took piano as a teenager.

我十几岁时学过钢琴。

It led nowhere.

它无处可去。

But as an adult, I went back to the piano.

但作为一个成年人，我又回到了钢琴。

We have a piano in the house, it came from my in-laws.

我们家里有一架钢琴，是我姻亲送来的。

Because I wanted to know something in my fingers.

因为我想知道我手指上的一些东西。

I didn't want to know something in my logic.

我不想知道我的逻辑。

I knew that the way that I usually would understand things would be rationally and logically, but I wanted to be able to play, and be able to play again purely so that it was in my fingers.

我知道我通常理解事物的方式是理性和逻辑的，但我希望能够演奏，并且能够纯粹地再次演奏，以便它在我的手指中。

And I also wanted to be able to visualize.

我也希望能够想象。

So I got to a point now where I started to be able to now see a cell, and I could visualize mitochondrial moving now up into the dendrites at the cell membrane.

所以我现在开始能够看到细胞，并且我可以想象线粒体现在向上移动到细胞膜的树突中。

So that visualization capacity, as well as the musical capacity, was my intuitive way of starting now more and more to get me to lean into the right, to be able to learn how to be in the right.

因此，视觉能力以及音乐能力是我现在开始越来越多地开始的直觉方式，让我倾向于正确，能够学习如何站在正确的一边。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Amazing.

太棒了。

I love this.

我喜欢这个。

And I'll refrain from sharing my personal use of such, I guess we call them avenues into the right.

我不会分享我个人对此类的使用，我想我们称它们为右派途径。

But I want to make clear, I understand you're in the stacks of books in the library.

但我想澄清一下，我知道你在图书馆的书堆里。

It feels and sounds like a cognitive endeavor, a left brain endeavor.

它感觉起来、听起来都像是一种认知努力、一种左脑努力。

But then it just came to you, "I want to play the piano." Or, through the research that you were doing, this 10-year self-research, amazing by the way, I'm so struck by that, then did it just come to you in a flash like, "I want to play the piano again?"

但后来你突然想到：“我想弹钢琴。”或者，通过你正在做的研究，这个10年的自我研究，顺便说一句，太棒了，我对此感到非常震惊，然后你是否突然想到，“我想再次弹钢琴？”

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And was it because playing the piano-

是不是因为弹钢琴——

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

contrasted so much with looking through the stacks, or they were aligned?

与查看堆栈形成鲜明对比，或者它们是对齐的？

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

No. For me, that was exploration.

不，对我来说，那是探索。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

It was exploration, et cetera.

这是探索等等。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Got it.

明白了。

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

It was all new information, and I found that I could master more than the field that I was trained in.

这些都是新的信息，我发现我可以掌握比我接受培训的领域更多的知识。

Let me give you one other experience that has a lot of evidence to show.

让我给你提供另一种有大量证据可以证明的经历。

The aha experience is right brain also.

顿悟的体验也是右脑的。

So there are times when literally insights will come quickly and suddenly, and they'll seem to come out of nowhere, and all of a sudden the muse is there.

所以有时候，真正的洞察力会快速而突然地出现，它们似乎不知从何而来，突然之间，缪斯就出现了。

So that was an aha experience, and when I thought about it, it just made all kinds of sense.

所以那是一次顿悟的经历，当我思考它时，它就变得很有意义。

There was a purpose to it because, again, I needed to get past doing that.

这是有目的的，因为我需要摆脱这种做法。

Let me tell you something else that I decided to do very early on as I was setting off into this 10-year period.

让我告诉你另一件事，是我在进入这十年期间很早就决定做的事情。

I decided never to memorize anything.

我决定永远不记住任何东西。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Hmm.

嗯。

Tell me more.

告诉我更多。

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

It's a lot of effort that gets nowhere.

付出了很多努力却毫无结果。

Literally what I wanted to do is I wanted to understand it in the way that I could understand it.

从字面上看，我想做的是我想以我能理解的方式来理解它。

So there's a lot of wasted time in memorization.

所以在记忆上浪费了很多时间。

And that being the case, as you can imagine, I have a rather enormous memory.

既然如此，你可以想象，我的记忆力相当强大。

I know where things are.

我知道东西在哪里。

I know where they are.

我知道他们在哪里。

I know how to get them.

我知道如何得到它们。

I know what's important, and I know how to put it into a place where I can get-- I know where that article is.

我知道什么是重要的，我知道如何把它放在我能拿到的地方——我知道那篇文章在哪里。

And incidentally, when I'm working, originally, I would write everything down, and the writing had an effect of putting that more into my memory.

顺便说一句，当我工作时，最初我会把所有的东西都写下来，而写作的效果是让我的记忆更多。

Even now when I'm studying, I'll take papers, I'll Xerox them, and I'll read them at my desk.

即使是现在，当我学习时，我也会拿论文，复印它们，然后在办公桌上阅读它们。

I will not read and study right off of the computer.

我不会立即离开电脑阅读和学习。

In other words, I was learning my own technique of learning.

换句话说，我正在学习自己的学习技巧。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

So important.

如此重要。

I often get asked, "What's your note-taking process?

我经常被问到：“你记笔记的过程是怎样的？

How do you prepare a solo episode?" I do these long solos that I have only a few pages of notes.

单独的一集要怎么准备？”我做这些长独奏时我只有几页笔记。

But I could describe it, but the process is so specific to the way that I learn across the, whatever, six, eight, 10 weeks that it takes me to prepare for one of those, sometimes more, that it wouldn't really translate.

但我可以描述它，但这个过程对于我在六周、八周、十周内学习的方式是如此具体，以至于我需要为其中一个，有时甚至更多的时间做准备，以至于它无法真正翻译。

Like, it doesn't matter.

喜欢，没关系。

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

No.

不。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

But there's a process of introspection there about literally how do I learn-

但有一个反省的过程，我实际上是如何学习的——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

...

and how can I literally absorb the information so that it goes in deep?

我怎样才能真正吸收这些信息并使其深入？

The left hemisphere essentially is a surface hemisphere.

左半球本质上是一个表面半球。

The right hemisphere is the one of depth, so to speak.

可以这么说，右半球是深度的半球。

And what goes into the right, for example, if you have an experience, an emotional experience that's really important, that goes deep into your autobiographical memory.

比如说，如果你有一种经历，一种非常重要的情感体验，它会深入到你的自传体记忆中。

That's much deeper than your attempting to memorize something at any point in time.

这比你在任何时间点试图记住一些东西要深刻得多。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Given the extreme importance of this right brain circuitry and of this autonomic synchrony between mother and, typically mother, primary caretaker that is, and infant, what are some things that are known from the literature as critically important about that stage in terms of amount of time spent with the child?

鉴于这种右脑回路以及母亲与（通常是母亲、主要看护者，即婴儿）之间的自主同步的极端重要性，从文献中得知，就该阶段与孩子相处的时间而言，哪些事情是至关重要的？

Oftentimes, parents are working, there are nannies, or any number of different things.

通常，父母在工作，有保姆，或者有许多不同的事情。

There are a lot of different structures nowadays for families and balancing work and family.

如今，家庭和平衡工作与家庭的结构有很多不同。

But is there anything known about how to, I hate to use the word optimize, but-

但是有什么关于如何做的事情吗？我讨厌使用“优化”这个词，但是-

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

maximize the health of the relationship?

最大化关系的健康？

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

Yeah.

是的。

I don't think that this culture, compared to other cultures, really provides for that kind of time.

与其他文化相比，我认为这种文化并没有真正提供那样的时间。

I think that people are stressed because of that.

我认为人们因此而感到压力。

And now I'm going to talk about maternal leave and paternal leave.

现在我要谈谈产假和陪产假。

In other rich countries, the paternal leave is three months, and maternal leave is six months or more, or in Scandinavia.

在其他富裕国家，或在斯堪的纳维亚半岛，陪产假为三个月，产假为六个月或更长。

So these other countries have figured out this time of life is critical.

所以这些其他国家已经意识到生命的这个时期至关重要。

That if you really want to affect a personality and help shape that personality to be a moral person or to have values, et cetera, the time literally to put in is the earliest years.

如果你真的想影响一个人的性格并帮助塑造这个人成为一个有道德的人或有价值观等等，那么实际上投入的时间就是最早的几年。

That's when it's there, so to speak.

可以这么说，那时它就在那里。

And without that kind of leave policy in this country, most people go back to work at six weeks.

如果这个国家没有这种休假政策，大多数人会在六周后重返工作岗位。

Six weeks is at the beginning of the critical period of the right brain.

六周是右脑关键期的开始。

The autonomic nervous system is in a critical period at six to eight weeks.

自主神经系统正处于六到八周的关键时期。

The amygdala is coming into a critical period.

杏仁核正进入关键时期。

The basal lateral amygdala, the insula, and the cingulate are in a critical period at that point in time.

基底外侧杏仁核、岛叶和扣带回此时正处于关键时期。

This is before the child has formed an attachment or separation.

这是在孩子形成依恋或分离之前。

So I see this as literally, and as I'm well aware of, there's now talking about this more and more.

所以我从字面意义上理解了这一点，而且我很清楚，现在关于这一点的讨论越来越多。

In fact, the recent debate, there was discussion of this also about this problem.

事实上，最近的争论，也有关于这个问题的讨论。

The London School of Economics had a study about what is the best childhood predictor of adult satisfaction in life, and the best predictor was emotion, and the second was the child's conduct, and the third and last Was the child's IQ.

伦敦经济学院有一项研究，关于成人生活满意度最好的童年预测因素是什么，最好的预测因素是情绪，第二个是孩子的行为，第三个也是最后一个是孩子的智商。

We have things upside down here.

我们这里的情况是颠倒的。

We are focusing too much on executive functions that come online at the third year.

我们过于关注第三年上线的执行职能。

And again, what I'm suggesting to you is that the whole foundations of our personality are starting in utero through the second and the third year, and then with the father, et cetera.

再说一次，我向你建议的是，我们人格的整个基础是在子宫内开始的，直到第二年和第三年，然后是父亲，等等。

That's where we literally should be putting the money, and the money should be there so that it provides the time.

这才是我们真正应该把钱投入的地方，而且钱应该放在那里，这样才能提供时间。

Every other culture has figured this out.

其他所有文化都已经明白了这一点。

The UNICEF took a poll in 2021 of 36 countries, rich countries, we came in last in emotional well-being, childhood well-being.

联合国儿童基金会在 2021 年对 36 个国家（富裕国家）进行了一项民意调查，我们在情感幸福感、童年幸福感方面排名垫底。

Shame.

耻辱。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It is a shame.

这是一种耻辱。

What's wonderful, however, is that you're highlighting these issues, so many people are hearing about this, and I encourage anyone, everyone listening, to really take in the ordering of importance of what Dr. Schore just shared.

然而，令人惊奇的是，您强调了这些问题，很多人都在听说这一点，我鼓励每个人，每个倾听者，真正理解肖尔博士刚刚分享的内容的重要性顺序。

That IQ, third on the list, emotion regulation, number one.

智商，排名第三，情绪调节，排名第一。

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

Conduct.

行为。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Conduct.

行为。

Yeah.

是的。

So the idea that we need to train our kids up as little memorizing computers is clearly the wrong idea.

因此，我们需要训练我们的孩子很少记住计算机的想法显然是错误的。

Clearly, there's important information that needs to be committed to memory to be a functional human being, but that we're missing not just critical knowledge transfer, but critical emotional transfer.

显然，要成为一个正常的人类，需要记住一些重要的信息，但我们不仅缺少关键的知识转移，而且缺少关键的情感转移。

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And for that reason, and for so many other reasons, I really want to thank you for coming in today and having this conversation.

出于这个原因，以及许多其他原因，我真的要感谢你今天来到这里并进行这次谈话。

It's unlike any conversation I've had on this podcast, for several reasons, not the least of which is that you have this incredible knowledge of the neurobiology, which for me is a delight, and I'm sure for the listeners, too, but also the clinical experience, which is so rich, and it's clear you've also done your own work in exploring these ideas.

这与我在这个播客上进行的任何对话都不一样，有几个原因，其中最重要的是你拥有令人难以置信的神经生物学知识，这对我来说是一种乐趣，我相信听众也是如此，而且临床经验也非常丰富，很明显你在探索这些想法方面也做了自己的工作。

And you've been here for and participated in the evolution of this whole right brain, left brain thing, the advent of neuroimaging and how that's really shed new light, and I just love, love, love the way that you braid all this together in terms of actionable things with patient and therapist, but also just in terms of one's understanding of self.

你一直在这里并参与了整个右脑、左脑事物的进化，神经影像学的出现以及它如何真正揭示了新的光明，我非常喜欢，非常喜欢你将所有这些编织在一起的方式，与患者和治疗师一起进行可操作的事情，而且也只是在一个人对自我的理解方面。

I'm certain people are going to take this knowledge into their lives and into the world, and it's been really enriching for me, and I'm certain it's going to be immensely enriching for them.

我确信人们会把这些知识带入他们的生活和世界，这对我来说真的很丰富，我也确信这对他们来说也将是极大的丰富。

So thank you for the work you do.

谢谢你所做的工作。

Thank you for taking the time to come here today, and I'm excited about your new book, so keep us informed as to when that comes out.

感谢您今天抽出时间来到这里，我对您的新书感到很兴奋，所以请随时通知我们新书何时出版。

Maybe we'll have you back on for another discussion, if you're willing.

如果您愿意的话，也许我们会让您回来进行另一次讨论。

And just thank you so much for entering this left brain, right brain dance and dynamic.

非常感谢您进入这个左脑、右脑的舞蹈和动态。

It's been thoroughly enjoyable for me.

这对我来说非常愉快。

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

Absolute pleasure for me, too, Andrew.

我也很高兴，安德鲁。

Absolute pleasure.

绝对的乐趣。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Thank you.

谢谢你。

Dr. Allan Schore:

艾伦·肖尔博士：

Thank you.

谢谢你。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Allan Schore.

感谢您参加今天与艾伦·肖尔博士的讨论。

To learn more about his work and to find links to his books, please see the links in the show note captions.

要了解有关他的作品的更多信息并查找他的书籍的链接，请参阅节目注释标题中的链接。

If you're learning from and/or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel.

如果您正在学习和/或喜欢此播客，请订阅我们的 YouTube 频道。

That's a terrific zero-cost way to support us.

这是支持我们的绝佳零成本方式。

Another terrific zero-cost way to support us is to follow the podcast on both Spotify and Apple.

另一种很棒的零成本支持方式是关注 Spotify 和 Apple 上的播客。

And on both Spotify and Apple, you can leave us up to a five-star review.

在 Spotify 和 Apple 上，您都可以给我们五星级的评价。

Please also check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode.

另请查看今天节目开头和整个节目中提到的赞助商。

That's the best way to support this podcast.

这是支持这个播客的最佳方式。

If you have questions for me or comments about the podcast or guests or topics that you'd like me to consider for the Huberman Lab Podcast, please put those in the comments on YouTube.

如果您对我有疑问，或者对播客、嘉宾或主题有任何意见，希望我在 Huberman 实验室播客中考虑这些内容，请在 YouTube 上发表评论。

I do read all the comments.

我确实阅读了所有评论。

For those of you that haven't heard, I have a new book coming out.

对于那些还没有听说过的人，我即将出版一本新书。

It's my very first book.

这是我的第一本书。

It's entitled "Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body." This is a book that I've been working on for more than 5 years, and that's based on more than 30 years of research and experience.

它的标题是“协议：人体操作手册”。这是我花了 5 年多时间编写的一本书，它基于 30 多年的研究和经验。

And it covers protocols for everything from sleep to exercise to stress control, protocols related to focus and motivation, and of course, I provide the scientific substantiation for the protocols that are included.

它涵盖了从睡眠到运动再到压力控制的所有协议，以及与注意力和动机相关的协议，当然，我为所包含的协议提供了科学依据。

The book is now available by presale at protocolsbook.com.

该书现已在protocolbook.com 上预售。

There you can find links to various vendors.

在那里您可以找到各个供应商的链接。

You can pick the one that you like best.

您可以选择您最喜欢的一个。

Again, the book is called "Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body." If you're not already following me on social media, I am hubermanlab on all social media platforms.

同样，这本书的名字是“协议：人体操作手册”。如果您还没有在社交媒体上关注我，我是所有社交媒体平台上的 hubermanlab。

So that's Instagram, X, formerly known as Twitter, LinkedIn, Facebook, and Threads.

这就是 Instagram、X，以前称为 Twitter、LinkedIn、Facebook 和 Threads。

And on all those platforms, I discuss science and science-based tools, some of which overlap with the content of the Huberman Lab Podcast, but much of which is distinct from the content covered on the Huberman Lab Podcast.

在所有这些平台上，我讨论科学和基于科学的工具，其中一些与胡伯曼实验室播客的内容重叠，但其中大部分与胡伯曼实验室播客涵盖的内容不同。

Again, it's hubermanlab on all social media platforms.

再说一遍，所有社交媒体平台上都是 hubermanlab。

And if you haven't already subscribed to our Neural Network Newsletter, the Neural Network Newsletter is a zero-cost monthly newsletter that includes podcast summaries, as well as brief one- to three-page PDFs that cover protocols for things like deliberate heat exposure, deliberate cold exposure.

如果您还没有订阅我们的神经网络新闻通讯，神经网络新闻通讯是一份零成本的每月新闻通讯，其中包括播客摘要以及简短的一到三页 PDF，其中涵盖了故意热暴露、故意冷暴露等协议。

There's a protocol for managing your dopamine.

有一个管理多巴胺的方案。

There's a protocol for optimizing your sleep, for neuroplasticity and learning, and much more.

有一个方案可以优化您的睡眠、神经可塑性和学习等等。

To sign up for the newsletter, simply go to hubermanlab.com.

要订阅时事通讯，只需访问 hubermanlab.com 即可。

There you provide your email.

您在那里提供您的电子邮件。

I'd like to emphasize that we do not share your email with anybody.

我想强调的是，我们不会与任何人分享您的电子邮件。

And as I mentioned before, the newsletter is completely zero cost.

正如我之前提到的，时事通讯完全是零成本。

Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Allan Schore.

再次感谢您参加今天与艾伦·肖尔博士的讨论。

And last but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.

最后但并非最不重要的一点是，感谢您对科学的兴趣。