Dr. Alia Crum: Science of Mindsets for Health & Performance

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Welcome to the Huberman Lab Podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.

欢迎来到胡伯曼实验室播客，我们在这里讨论科学和基于科学的日常生活工具。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I'm Andrew Huberman and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.

我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。

Today, my guest is Dr. Alia Crum.

今天，我的嘉宾是 Alia Crum 博士。

Dr. Crum is a tenured professor of psychology at Stanford University, and the founder and director of the Stanford Mind and Body Lab.

克拉姆博士是斯坦福大学心理学终身教授，也是斯坦福身心实验室的创始人和主任。

Her work focuses on mindsets.

她的工作重点是心态。

How what we think and what we believe shapes the way that our physiology, our biology, reacts to things like what we eat or stress or exercise.

我们的想法和信仰如何塑造我们的生理、生物学对饮食、压力或锻炼等事物的反应方式。

Indeed, as you will soon learn from my discussion with Dr. Crum, what you believe about the nutritional content of your food changes the way that food impacts your brain and body to a remarkable degree.

事实上，您很快就会从我与克拉姆博士的讨论中了解到，您对食物营养成分的看法会在很大程度上改变食物影响您的大脑和身体的方式。

And the same is true for mindsets about exercise and stress, and even medication.

对于运动、压力甚至药物的心态也是如此。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

For instance, recent work from Dr. Crum's laboratory shows that what we believe about the side effect profiles of different drug treatments or different behavioral treatments has a profound impact on how quickly those treatments work and the effectiveness of those treatments.

例如，克拉姆博士实验室最近的研究表明，我们对不同药物治疗或不同行为治疗的副作用的看法对这些治疗的起效速度和有效性有着深远的影响。

I just want to mention one particular study that just came out from a graduate student in Dr. Crum's laboratory, Lauren Howe, H-O-W-E, showed that how kids react to a treatment for peanut allergies can be profoundly shaped by whether or not those kids were educated about the side effects of the treatment.

我只想提一下 Crum 博士实验室的研究生 Lauren Howe（H-O-W-E）刚刚发表的一项特别研究，该研究表明，孩子们对花生过敏治疗的反应可能会很大程度上取决于这些孩子是否接受过有关治疗副作用的教育。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Such that if they learned that the side effects were a byproduct of a treatment that would help them, and they learned a little bit about why those side effects arose and that the side effects might even help them en route to overcoming their peanut allergy, had an enormous impact on how quickly they moved through the treatment and, indeed, how much they suffered, or in this case, did not suffer from those side effects.

这样，如果他们了解到副作用是对他们有帮助的治疗的副产品，并且他们了解了一些为什么会出现这些副作用，以及这些副作用甚至可能帮助他们克服花生过敏，那么会对他们完成治疗的速度产生巨大影响，事实上，他们遭受了多少痛苦，或者在这种情况下，没有遭受这些副作用。

And that is but one example that you will learn about today as we discuss what mindsets are, the number of different mindsets that exist and how we can adopt mindsets that make us more adaptive, more effective, allow us to suffer less and to perform better in all aspects of life.

这只是您今天将学到的一个例子，我们将讨论什么是心态、存在的不同心态的数量以及我们如何采用心态来使我们更具适应性、更有效、让我们更少受苦并在生活的各个方面表现更好。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I personally find the work of Dr. Alia Crum to be among the most important work being done in the fields of biology and psychology and the interface of mind, body.

我个人认为 Alia Crum 博士的工作是生物学和心理学以及身心界面领域最重要的工作之一。

Everything that she's done up until now and published and, indeed, the work that she continues to do has shaped everything within my daily routines, within my work routines, within my athletic routines.

到目前为止，她所做的一切和出版的一切，事实上，她继续做的工作都塑造了我的日常生活、工作习惯和运动习惯中的一切。

And we probably shouldn't be surprised by the fact that Dr. Crum works on all these things.

对于克拉姆博士致力于所有这些事情的事实，我们可能不应该感到惊讶。

She was not only an incredibly accomplished tenured research professor, she's also a clinical psychologist, and she was also a division one athlete and elite gymnast at one period in her life.

她不仅是一位成就卓著的终身研究教授，还是一位临床心理学家，而且在她一生中的某个时期，她还是一名一级运动员和精英体操运动员。

So she really walks the walk in terms of understanding what mindsets are and applying them in different aspects of life.

因此，她真正做到了理解什么是心态并将其应用到生活的不同方面。

I'm sure you're going to learn a ton from this conversation, as did I, and come away with many, many actionable items that you can apply in your own life.

我相信你会像我一样从这次谈话中学到很多东西，并得到很多很多可以在你自己的生活中应用的可操作的项目。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

In fact, as we march into today's conversation, you might want to just put in the back of your mind the question, "What is my mindset about blank?" So for instance, ask yourself, "What is my mindset about stress?

事实上，当我们进入今天的谈话时，你可能只想把这个问题抛在脑后：“我对空白的看法是什么？”例如，问问自己：“我对压力的看法是什么？

What is my mindset about food?

What is my mindset about food?

What is my mindset about exercise?

我对锻炼的心态是什么？

What is my mindset about relationships of different kinds?" Because in doing that, you'll be in a great position to extract the best of the information that Dr. Crum presents and, indeed, to adapt those mindsets in the way that's going to be most beneficial for you.

我对不同类型的关系有什么看法？”因为这样做时，您将处于一个很好的位置，可以提取克拉姆博士提供的最佳信息，并且实际上，以对您最有利的方式调整这些心态。

Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.

在开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。

It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero-cost-to-consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public.

然而，我的愿望和努力的一部分是将有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本消费者信息带给公众。

In keeping with that theme, I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast.

为了与这个主题保持一致，我要感谢今天播客的赞助商。

And now my conversation with Dr. Alia Crum.

现在是我与阿莉亚·克拉姆博士的对话。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Well, great to have you here.

Well, great to have you here.

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

Great to be here.

很高兴来到这里。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

For the record, it's Alia Crum, but you go by Allie, correct?

郑重声明，我是 Alia Crum，但你叫 Allie，对吗？

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

That is correct,

这是正确的，

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Dr. Allie Crum like Alia Crum:

Allie Crum 博士喜欢 Alia Crum：

Or just Allie.

或者只是艾莉。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Okay, great.

好的，太好了。

Well, I've been looking forward to talking to you for a long time.

嗯，我期待与你交谈已经很久了。

Just to start off, you've talked a lot and worked a lot on the science of mindsets.

首先，您在心态科学方面谈了很多，也做了很多工作。

Could you define for us what is a mindset and what purpose does it serve?

您能为我们定义什么是心态以及它的目的是什么吗？

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

Of course, yeah.

当然，是的。

Mindsets have been described or defined in a lot of ways.

心态已经以多种方式被描述或定义。

We define mindsets as core beliefs or assumptions that we have about a domain or category of things that orient us to a particular set of expectations, explanations, and goals.

我们将心态定义为我们对某一领域或一类事物的核心信念或假设，这些信念或假设引导我们实现一组特定的期望、解释和目标。

So that's kind of jargony.

这就是行话。

I can distill it down for you.

我可以为你把它提炼出来。

So mindsets are an assumption that you make about a domain.

因此，心态是您对某个领域做出的假设。

So take stress, for example.

以压力为例。

The nature of stress.

压力的本质。

What's your sort of core belief about that?

您对此的核心信念是什么？

And mindsets that we've studied about stress are, do you view stress as enhancing, good for you, or do you view it as debilitating and bad for you?

我们研究的关于压力的心态是，你认为压力会增强你的能力，对你有好处，还是你认为它会削弱你的能力，对你有害？

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

Those mindsets, those core beliefs, orient our thinking.

这些心态、那些核心信念指导着我们的思维。

They change what we expect will happen to us when we're stressed, how we explain the occurrences that happen or unfold when we're stressed, and also change our motivation for what we engage in when we're stressed.

它们改变了我们对压力时会发生的事情的预期，改变了我们对压力时发生或展开的事件的解释方式，也改变了我们在压力时从事活动的动机。

So we have mindsets about many things.

So we have mindsets about many things.

Mindsets about stress, mindsets about intelligence, as Carol Dweck's work has shown, mindsets about food, mindsets about medicine.

正如卡罗尔·德韦克（Carol Dweck）的工作所表明的那样，关于压力的心态，关于智力的心态，关于食物的心态，关于药物的心态。

You name it.

你说出它的名字。

It's distilling down those core assumptions that really shape and orient our thinking and action.

它正在提炼出那些真正塑造和指导我们的思维和行动的核心假设。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I've heard you say before that mindsets simplify life in some way, by constraining the number of things that we have to consider.

我以前听你说过，心态通过限制我们必须考虑的事情的数量，在某种程度上简化了生活。

And it sounds to me like we can have mindsets about many things, as you said.

正如你所说，在我看来，我们可以对很多事情有自己的想法。

What are some different mindsets?

有哪些不同的思维方式？

I think many people are familiar with our colleague Carol Dweck's notion of growth mindset.

我想很多人都熟悉我们的同事卡罗尔·德韦克（Carol Dweck）的成长心态概念。

That if we're not proficient at something, that we should think about not being proficient yet.

如果我们不精通某件事，我们就应该考虑还没有精通。

That we are on some path to proficiency.

That we are on some path to proficiency.

But what are some examples of mindsets, and how early do these get laid down?

但是，有哪些心态的例子？这些心态要多久才能定下来？

Or do we learn them from our parents?

Or do we learn them from our parents?

Maybe if you could just flesh it out a bit for us in terms of what you've observed in your own science or your own life even.

也许你可以根据你在自己的科学甚至你自己的生活中观察到的内容为我们充实一点。

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

Yeah, sure.

是的，当然。

So I think it's important with Carol Dweck's work, a lot of people get focused on growth, motivation and all these things, but her work really originated from thinking about what she called this implicit theories or core beliefs about the nature of intelligence or ability.

所以我认为卡罗尔·德韦克（Carol Dweck）的工作很重要，很多人都关注成长、动机和所有这些事情，但她的工作实际上源于对她所谓的关于智力或能力本质的隐含理论或核心信念的思考。

So do you believe that your baseline levels of intelligence or your abilities are fixed, static, set throughout the rest of your life, or do you believe that they can grow and change?

那么，你是否相信你的智力或能力的基线水平是固定的、静态的、在你的余生中设定的，还是你相信它们可以成长和改变？

Now, those are oversimplified generalizations about the nature of intelligence.

现在，这些都是对智力本质的过于简单化的概括。

And the reality is, as it always is, complex, and it's a bit of both, and it's all these things.

现实一如既往地复杂，两者兼而有之，而且就是所有这些事情。

But as humans, we need these simplifying systems to help us understand a complex reality.

但作为人类，我们需要这些简化的系统来帮助我们理解复杂的现实。

So those assumptions that we jump to, "Oh, intelligence is fixed," or, "intelligence is malleable," they help us to simplify this complex reality, but they're not inconsequential.

因此，我们跳到的那些假设“哦，智力是固定的”，或者“智力是可塑的”，它们帮助我们简化这个复杂的现实，但它们并不是无关紧要的。

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

They matter in shaping our motivation.

They matter in shaping our motivation.

And as she has shown, if you have the mindset that intelligence is malleable, you're motivated to work harder to grow your intelligence.

正如她所表明的，如果你认为智力是可塑的，你就会有动力更加努力地提高你的智力。

If you have a setback and you're learning, you think, "Okay, there's something there that I can grow and learn and build from." If you have the mindset that it's fixed, why work harder at math if you don't think you're good at it?

如果你遇到挫折并且正在学习，你会想：“好吧，那里有一些东西可以让我成长、学习和建设。”如果你的心态是固定的，如果你认为自己不擅长数学，为什么要在数学上更加努力呢？

So in retrospect, it's pretty clear how these mindsets can affect our motivation.

所以回想起来，这些心态如何影响我们的动机是非常清楚的。

What our work has aimed to do is to expand the range of mindsets that we are studying, focused on — and also understand and expand the range of effects that they have.

我们工作的目的是扩大我们正在研究和关注的思维方式的范围，并理解和扩大它们所产生的影响的范围。

So by and large, we focused on mindsets in the domain of health and health behaviors.

因此，总的来说，我们关注健康和健康行为领域的心态。

So I mentioned mindsets about stress.

So I mentioned mindsets about stress.

We've also looked at mindsets about food and healthy eating.

我们还研究了有关食物和健康饮食的心态。

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

So do you have the mindset that foods that are good for you, healthy foods, are disgusting and depriving?

那么，您是否有一种心态，认为对您有益的食物、健康的食物是令人厌恶和剥夺的？

Or do you have the mindset that healthy foods are indulgent and delicious?

或者您是否认为健康食品是美味可口的？

Now, it could be a variety of different foods.

Now, it could be a variety of different foods.

You might have different thoughts about different healthy foods.

您可能对不同的健康食品有不同的想法。

But generally people, at least in our culture in the West, have this view that stress is debilitating, healthy foods are disgusting and depriving.

但一般来说，人们，至少在西方文化中，都认为压力会让人衰弱，健康食品令人厌恶和剥夺。

And those mindsets, whether or not they're true or false, right or wrong, they have an impact.

这些心态，无论真假、对错，都会产生影响。

And they have an impact, not just through the motivational mechanisms that Dweck and others have studied, but as our lab has started to reveal, they also shape physiological mechanisms by changing what our bodies prioritize and prepare to do.

它们不仅通过德韦克和其他人研究的激励机制产生影响，而且正如我们实验室已经开始揭示的那样，它们还通过改变我们身体的优先顺序和准备做什么来塑造生理机制。

So those are just two examples.

So those are just two examples.

Mindsets about stress, mindsets about food.

Mindsets about stress, mindsets about food.

We've looked at mindsets about exercise.

We've looked at mindsets about exercise.

Do you feel like you're getting enough, or do you feel like you're getting an insufficient amount to get the health benefits you're seeking?

您是否觉得自己摄入的量足够，或者是否觉得自己摄入的量不足以获得您所寻求的健康益处？

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

Your mindsets about illness.

Your mindsets about illness.

Do you view cancer as an unmitigated catastrophe, or do you view cancer as manageable or perhaps even an opportunity?

您认为癌症是一场彻底的灾难，还是认为癌症是可以控制的，甚至是一个机会？

We've looked at mindsets about symptoms and side effects.

我们研究了有关症状和副作用的心态。

Do you view side effects as a sign that the treatment is harmful, or do you view side effects as a sign that the treatment is working?

您是否将副作用视为治疗有害的标志，还是将副作用视为治疗有效的标志？

Again, these are core beliefs or assumptions you have about these domains or categories, but they matter because they're shaping, they're synthesizing and simplifying the way we're thinking, but they're also shaping what we're paying attention to, what we're motivated to do, and potentially even how our bodies respond.

同样，这些是你对这些领域或类别的核心信念或假设，但它们很重要，因为它们正在塑造、综合和简化我们的思维方式，但它们也塑造了我们关注的内容、我们有动力去做的事情，甚至可能影响我们身体的反应。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

I'd love to talk about this notion of mindset shaping how our bodies respond.

我很想谈谈心态如何塑造我们的身体反应的概念。

And maybe as an example of this, if you could share with us this now famous study that you've done with a milkshake study.

也许作为一个例子，您是否可以与我们分享您对奶昔所做的这项现在著名的研究。

If you wouldn't mind sharing the major contours of that study and the results, because I think they're extremely impressive and they really speak to this interplay between mindset and physiology.

如果您不介意分享该研究的主要轮廓和结果，因为我认为它们非常令人印象深刻，并且它们确实说明了心态和生理学之间的相互作用。

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

Certainly.

当然。

Yeah.

是的。

This was a study that I ran as a graduate student at Yale University.

这是我在耶鲁大学读研究生时进行的一项研究。

I was working with Kelly Brownell and Peter Salovey.

我与凯利·布劳内尔和彼得·萨洛维一起工作。

Peter Salovey had done a lot of work on really coining the term "emotional intelligence," studying that.

彼得·萨洛维（Peter Salovey）在创造“情商”这个术语方面做了大量的工作，并对此进行了研究。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

He's now the president of Yale, right?

He's now the president of Yale, right?

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

He's now the president of Yale, yes.

He's now the president of Yale, yes.

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So he's done well.

所以他做得很好。

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

He's done well for himself and for the university and society.

他为自己、为大学、为社会都做得很好。

And Kelly Brownell, who was doing a lot of research on food and obesity.

还有凯利·布劳内尔（Kelly Brownell），她对食物和肥胖进行了大量研究。

And I had come in doing some previous work on mindsets about exercise, and placebo effects and exercise, and was in this food domain and this emotions and food domain.

我之前做过一些关于运动心态、安慰剂效应和运动的工作，并且在这个食物领域以及这个情绪和食物领域。

And it really occurred to me that there was a very simple question that hadn't been probed yet.

我确实想到了一个非常简单的问题还没有被探究。

And that was, do our beliefs about what we're eating change our body's physiological response to that food, holding constant the objective nutrients of that thing?

也就是说，我们对所吃食物的信念是否会改变我们身体对该食物的生理反应，从而保持该食物的客观营养成分不变？

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

So that question might sound outrageous at first, but it's really not outrageous if you're coming from a place of having studied in depth placebo effects.

所以这个问题一开始可能听起来很离谱，但如果你来自一个深入研究过安慰剂效应的地方，那么这个问题其实并不离谱。

Placebo effects, in medicine at least, are this robust demonstration in which simply taking a sugar pill, taking nothing, under the impression that it's a real medication that might relieve your asthma, reduce your blood pressure, boost your immune system, can lead to those physiological effects even though there's no objective nutrients.

安慰剂效应，至少在医学上，是这样有力的证明，即仅仅服用一颗糖丸，什么都不吃，给人一种真正的药物可以缓解哮喘、降低血压、增强免疫系统的印象，即使没有客观的营养物质，也可以导致这些生理效应。

And we have more evidence on placebo effects than we have for any other drug.

我们拥有比任何其他药物更多的安慰剂效应证据。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Really?

真的吗？

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

Because of the clinical trial process in which all new drugs and medications are required to outperform a placebo effect.

因为在临床试验过程中，所有新药和药物都需要优于安慰剂效果。

So we have a lot of data on the placebo effect.

So we have a lot of data on the placebo effect.

Now we can get nuance there.

Now we can get nuance there.

We don't have a lot of data comparing the placebo effect to doing nothing, which is important for distilling mindset effects or belief effects from natural occurring changes in the body.

我们没有大量数据来比较安慰剂效应和什么都不做，这对于从身体自然发生的变化中提取心态效应或信念效应很重要。

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

But anyways, going back to this question.

But anyways, going back to this question.

It was like, all right, we've moved from medications solving our health crises to behavioral medicine solving our health crises, increase people's exercise, get them to eat better.

就像，好吧，我们已经从解决健康危机的药物转向了解决健康危机的行为医学，增加人们的锻炼，让他们吃得更好。

To what degree are these things influenced by our mindsets or beliefs about them?

这些事物在多大程度上受到我们的心态或信念的影响？

So to test this question, we ran a seemingly simple study.

为了测试这个问题，我们进行了一项看似简单的研究。

This was done at the Yale Center for Clinical and Translational Research.

这是在耶鲁大学临床和转化研究中心完成的。

And we brought people into our lab under the impression that we were designing different milkshakes with vastly different metabolic concentrations, nutrient concentrations that were designed to meet different metabolic needs of the patrons of the hospital.

我们让人们进入我们的实验室，给人的印象是我们正在设计不同的奶昔，这些奶昔的代谢浓度和营养浓度差异很大，旨在满足医院顾客的不同代谢需求。

So you're going to come in, you're going to taste these milkshakes, and we're going to measure your body's physiological response to them.

所以你要进来，你要品尝这些奶昔，我们将测量你的身体对它们的生理反应。

This was a within-subjects design.

This was a within-subjects design.

So it was the same people consuming two different milkshakes, two different time points separated by a week.

因此，同一个人在相隔一周的两个不同时间点喝了两种不同的奶昔。

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

And at one time point, they were told that they were consuming this really high-fat, high-caloric, indulgent milkshake.

有一次，他们被告知他们正在饮用这种高脂肪、高热量、令人放纵的奶昔。

It was like 620 calorie, super high fat and sugar.

大概有620卡路里，超高脂肪和糖。

At the other time point, they were told that it was a low-fat, low-calorie, sensible diet shake.

在另一个时间点，他们被告知这是一种低脂肪、低热量、合理的饮食奶昔。

In reality, it was the exact same shake.

In reality, it was the exact same shake.

It was right in the middle.

它就在中间。

It was like 300 calories, moderate amount of fats and sugars.

大约是300卡路里，适量的脂肪和糖。

And we were measuring their body's gut peptide response to this shake.

我们正在测量他们的身体对这种震动的肠道肽反应。

And in particular, we were looking at the hormone ghrelin.

我们特别关注的是饥饿素激素。

So as you know, ghrelin, medical experts call it the hunger hormone.

如您所知，胃饥饿素，医学专家将其称为饥饿激素。

Rises in ghrelin signal, "Seek out food." And then, theoretically, in proportion to the amount of calories you consume, ghrelin levels drop, signaling to the brain, "You don't need to eat so much anymore, you can stop eating," and also revving up the metabolism to burn the nutrients that were just ingested.

Rises in ghrelin signal, "Seek out food."然后，从理论上讲，胃饥饿素水平会根据你消耗的卡路里量成比例下降，向大脑发出信号，“你不需要再吃那么多了，你可以停止进食了”，同时也会加速新陈代谢以燃烧刚刚摄入的营养物质。

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

What we found in this study was that when people thought they were consuming the high-fat, high-calorie, indulgent milkshake in response to the shake, their ghrelin levels dropped at a threefold rate stronger than when they thought they were consuming the sensible shake.

我们在这项研究中发现，当人们认为自己正在饮用高脂肪、高热量、放纵的奶昔来应对奶昔时，他们的胃饥饿素水平下降速度比他们认为自己正在饮用合理奶昔时的三倍。

So essentially, their bodies responded as if they had consumed more food, even though it was the exact same shake at both time points.

因此，从本质上讲，他们的身体反应就好像他们吃了更多的食物，尽管在两个时间点的震动完全相同。

So this was really interesting and important for two reasons, really.

所以这真的很有趣也很重要，有两个原因。

One was that it was, to my knowledge, one of the first studies to show any effects of just believing that you're eating something different on your physiology.

其中之一是，据我所知，这是最早表明相信自己吃的东西对生理机能有影响的研究之一。

Lots of studies have shown that believing you're eating different things changes your tastes and even your satisfaction and fullness after.

许多研究表明，相信自己正在吃不同的东西会改变你的口味，甚至会改变你的满足感和饱腹感。

But this shows that it has a metabolic or a physiological component.

但这表明它具有代谢或生理成分。

But the second piece was really important as well, and especially for me.

但第二部分也非常重要，尤其是对我来说。

This was one study that really transformed the way I think about how I approach eating, and that was the manner in which it affected our physiology was somewhat counterintuitive.

这是一项真正改变了我对饮食方式的思考方式的研究，它影响我们生理机能的方式有点违反直觉。

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

So I had gone in thinking the better mindset to be in when you eat is that you're eating healthy.

所以我一直认为，吃东西时最好的心态是吃得健康。

Right?

正确的？

Just makes sense.

有道理。

Placebo effects, think you're healthy, you'll be healthy.

安慰剂效应，认为你很健康，你就会健康。

But that was a far too simplistic way of thinking about it.

但这是一种过于简单化的思考方式。

And in fact, it was the exact opposite, because when these participants thought they were eating sensibly, their bodies left them still feeling physiologically hungry, not satiated.

事实上，事实恰恰相反，因为当这些参与者认为自己吃得合理时，他们的身体让他们仍然感到生理上的饥饿，而不是饱足。

Which could potentially be corresponding to slower metabolism, and so forth.

这可能与较慢的新陈代谢相对应，等等。

So if you're in the interest of maintaining or losing weight, what's the best mindset to be in?

那么，如果您有兴趣保持或减肥，最好的心态是什么？

It's to be in a mindset that you're eating indulgently.

就是要保持一种放纵饮食的心态。

That you're having enough food.

That you're having enough food.

That you're getting enough.

That you're getting enough.

And at least in that study, we showed that has a more adaptive effect on ghrelin responses.

至少在这项研究中，我们表明这对胃饥饿素反应具有更强的适应性作用。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So interesting and especially interesting to me as a neuroscientist who has worked on aspects of the nervous system that are involved in conscious perception, like vision and motion and color perception, and so forth.

作为一名神经科学家，我非常有趣，尤其感兴趣的是，我一直在研究神经系统中与意识感知有关的各个方面，比如视觉、运动和颜色感知等等。

But also, our lab has worked and is increasingly working on autonomic functions that are below our conscious detection.

而且，我们的实验室已经并且正在越来越多地研究我们有意识检测不到的自主功能。

In this case, a lie about how much something these milkshakes contain affected a subconscious process.

在这种情况下，关于这些奶昔含有多少物质的谎言会影响潜意识过程。

Because I have to imagine that the ghrelin pathway is not one that I can decide, "Oh, this particular piece of chocolate is going to really reduce my ghrelin because it's very nutrient rich." As opposed to one, if you told me that a different piece of chocolate, for instance, is low-calorie or sugar-free chocolate, or something of that sort.

因为我必须想象生长素释放肽途径不是我可以决定的，“哦，这块特殊的巧克力会真正减少我的生长素释放肽，因为它营养丰富。”与一个相反，如果你告诉我另一块巧克力是低热量或无糖巧克力，或类似的东西。

The ghrelin pathway, however, it seems, based on your data, that the ghrelin pathway is susceptible to thoughts, which is incredible.

然而，根据您的数据，饥饿素途径似乎对思想敏感，这令人难以置信。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But then again, there must be crossover between conscious thought and these subconscious or autonomic pathways.

但话又说回来，有意识的思维和这些潜意识或自主路径之间必定存在交叉。

So it's really remarkable.

So it's really remarkable.

It raises a question that I just have to ask because increasingly so, I'm involved in online discussions and social media.

这提出了一个我不得不问的问题，因为我越来越多地参与在线讨论和社交媒体。

And one of the most barbed-wire topics out there, and that's being generous, is this topic of which diet or nutrients are best.

那里最有刺的话题之一，而且是慷慨的，是这个话题的饮食或营养是最好的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You've got people who are strictly plant-based, you've got people who are omnivores, you've got people who are carnivores.

有些人是严格以植物为基础的，有些人是杂食动物，有些人是肉食动物。

You have every variation, you have intermittent fasting, also called time-restricted feeding.

你有各种各样的变化，你有间歇性禁食，也称为限时喂养。

And it seems like once a group plugs into a particular mode of eating that they feel works for them, for whatever reason, energy wise, mentally, maybe they're looking at their blood profiles, maybe they're not.

似乎一旦一个群体开始采用一种他们认为对他们有效的特定饮食方式，无论出于何种原因，能量方面、精神上，也许他们正在查看自己的血液特征，也许他们没有。

But once they feel that it works for them, each camp seems to tout all the health benefits and how great they feel.

但一旦他们觉得这对他们有效，每个营地似乎都会吹捧所有的健康益处以及他们的感觉有多好。

Could it be that mindset effects are involved there?

难道那里涉及心态效应吗？

That people are finding the nutritional program that they feel brings them the most enrichment of life, but also nutrients and that their health really is shifting in a positive direction, but not necessarily because of the food constituents, but because of the community and the ideas and the reinforcement?

人们正在寻找他们认为给他们带来最丰富的生活和营养的营养计划，并且他们的健康确实正在朝着积极的方向转变，但不一定是因为食物成分，而是因为社区、想法和强化？

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

Yeah and the belief that this is the right way of doing something.

是的，并且相信这是做某事的正确方式。

I think 100%.

我认为是100%。

A hundred percent.

百分之一百。

It has something to contribute.

It has something to contribute.

I'm not going to weigh in on the debate, which is better.

我不会参与争论，哪个更好。

What I will most certainly weigh in on is the notion that, look, going back to the placebo effect.

我最肯定会权衡的是这样一个概念，看，回到安慰剂效应。

We have an outdated understanding of what that is, which is based on this randomized control trial.

我们对它的理解已经过时了，这是基于这项随机对照试验的。

You compare a drug to a placebo.

You compare a drug to a placebo.

If the drug works better than the placebo, you say, "Great, the drug works." If the drug doesn't outperform the placebo, you say, "The drug doesn't work." That's really oversimplified.

如果药物比安慰剂更有效，你会说：“太好了，药物有效。”如果该药物的效果没有优于安慰剂，您会说“该药物不起作用”。 That's really oversimplified.

It's a good test for the specific efficacy of the drug.

这是对药物具体功效的一个很好的测试。

It's not a good test for understanding the total impact of that drug.

对于了解该药物的总体影响来说，这并不是一个好的测试。

Because in the reality of things, if a drug outperforms a placebo, then you start prescribing it.

因为在现实中，如果某种药物的效果优于安慰剂，那么你就开始开药。

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

But the reality is that the total effect of that drug is a combined product of the specific chemical attributes of that drug and whatever's going on in the placebo effect.

但事实是，该药物的总效果是该药物的特定化学属性和安慰剂效应中发生的任何事情的综合产物。

Which is, at least from our perspective, it's beliefs, it's social context, and it's your body's natural ability to respond to something.

至少从我们的角度来看，这是信仰、社会背景，也是你的身体对某些事物做出反应的自然能力。

So that's in the placebo effect example.

So that's in the placebo effect example.

The same is true for everything we do or consume.

我们所做的或消费的一切都是如此。

So when it comes to what diet you're eating, both are true.

因此，当谈到您的饮食习惯时，两者都是正确的。

It does matter what it is, and it matters what you think about that diet and what others around you and in our culture think about that diet because those social contexts inform our mindsets.

它是什么确实很重要，而且你对这种饮食的看法以及你周围的人和我们文化中的其他人对这种饮食的看法也很重要，因为这些社会背景影响了我们的思维方式。

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

Our mindsets interact with our physiology in ways that produce outcomes that are really important.

我们的心态与生理机能相互作用，产生非常重要的结果。

So let's not get dualistic and say it's either all in the mind or not in the mind.

因此，我们不要二元论说它要么全在头脑中，要么全不在头脑中。

Let's also not be unnecessarily combative and say, "Oh, it should be all plant-based or keto or whatever." It's, all of those things are a combined product of what you're actually doing and what you're thinking about.

我们也不要不必要地好斗并说：“哦，它应该全部以植物为基础或酮或其他什么。”所有这些事情都是你实际在做的事情和你正在思考的事情的结合产物。

If you believe in it.

如果你相信它。

If you don't, if you're skeptical.

如果你不这样做，如果你持怀疑态度。

Or in some cases, you think you should be eating a certain way and then you don't live up to that.

或者在某些情况下，你认为你应该以某种方式饮食，但你却没有做到。

It might have even an adverse effect because of the stress and the anxiety associated with that.

由于与之相关的压力和焦虑，它甚至可能产生不利影响。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Very interesting.

非常有趣。

Along the lines of belief effects, could we call these belief effects or mindsets?

沿着信念效应的思路，我们可以将这些称为信念效应或心态吗？

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

Sure.

当然。

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Is there a difference between what I'm calling belief effects and placebo effects?

我所说的信念效应和安慰剂效应有区别吗？

I mean, are placebo effects distinctly different from mindset effects, or are they more or less the same thing?

我的意思是，安慰剂效应与心态效应明显不同，还是或多或少相同？

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

They're related.

他们是相关的。

So I think placebo effects maybe should be reserved for the conditions in which you're actually taking a placebo, which is an inactive substance.

所以我认为安慰剂效应可能应该保留在你实际服用安慰剂的情况下，安慰剂是一种非活性物质。

When you get out of that placebo versus drug realm and you start looking at "placebo effects," I use quotes with my hands here, in behavioral health, the term becomes confusing because you're not ...

当你摆脱安慰剂与药物的领域并开始关注“安慰剂效应”时，我在这里用手引用引号，在行为健康中，这个术语变得令人困惑，因为你不......

In the milkshake study, we didn't give people a placebo milkshake.

在奶昔研究中，我们没有给人们提供安慰剂奶昔。

We just changed what they believed about it.

我们只是改变了他们对此的看法。

So how I like to think about it is that placebo effects, as they're traditionally construed, are made up of three things.

所以我认为安慰剂效应，正如传统上解释的那样，是由三件事组成的。

It's the social context, mindsets or beliefs, and the natural physiological processes in the brain and body that can produce the outcomes.

社会背景、心态或信仰以及大脑和身体的自然生理过程可以产生结果。

And so we could just call them belief effects because the beliefs are triggering the physiological processes and the beliefs are shaped by the social context.

因此，我们可以将它们称为信念效应，因为信念触发了生理过程，并且信念是由社会背景塑造的。

Does that make sense?

这有道理吗？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It makes sense.

这是有道理的。

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

There was a paper a year or two ago published in Science magazine about brain regions involved in psychogenic fever.

一两年前，《科学》杂志上发表了一篇关于心因性发烧涉及的大脑区域的论文。

That if people, or you can actually do this in animal models too, think that they're sick, you get a genuine one-to-three-degree increase in body temperature, one-to-three-degrees-Fahrenheit increase in body temperature.

如果人们，或者你实际上也可以在动物模型中做到这一点，认为他们生病了，你的体温就会真正升高一到三度，体温升高一到三华氏度。

It's pretty impressive and plays into symptomology generally.

它非常令人印象深刻，并且通常适用于症状学。

So I'm a believer in belief effects.

所以我相信信念效应。

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

Well, it's also, and I just say that the term that we use in our field is "nocebo effect" for that, which is the placebo's ugly stepsister.

好吧，我只是说，我们在我们的领域使用的术语是“反安慰剂效应”，这是安慰剂丑陋的继姐妹。

It's when negative beliefs cause negative consequences.

这是当消极信念导致消极后果时。

So you are told you will have ...

所以你被告知你将有...

it's very well demonstrated that when people are told about certain side effects, they're far more likely to experience those side effects.

有充分证据表明，当人们被告知某些副作用时，他们更有可能经历这些副作用。

When people think that they're sick or going to get sick, sometimes that can create the physiological symptoms.

当人们认为自己生病或即将生病时，有时会产生生理症状。

And there's various debates that it's not only that physiology changes, it's also that your attention changes.

关于这不仅是生理变化，而且你的注意力也发生了变化，存在各种争论。

So we're experiencing things like fatigue and headache and upset stomach all the time.

所以我们一直在经历诸如疲劳、头痛和胃部不适之类的事情。

And then when you take a drug and somebody says you're going to feel fatigue and headache, you start noticing that you're tired and have headaches and attribute it to the drug.

然后，当您服用药物时，有人说您会感到疲劳和头痛，您开始注意到自己感到疲倦和头痛，并将其归因于药物。

So some of the mechanisms are attention and some of them are real changes in physiology.

所以有些机制是注意力，有些是生理上的真正变化。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Love for you to tell us

对你的爱告诉我们

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

...

...

in physiology.

在生理学中。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Love for you to tell us about the hotel worker study.

希望您向我们介绍一下酒店员工研究。

PART 1 OF 4 ENDS Alia Crum:

第 1 部分（共 4 部分）结束 Alia Crum：

Yeah, sure.

是的，当然。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I know you get asked these questions all the time, but I find these just, these results all so amazing.

我知道你总是被问到这些问题，但我发现这些结果都是如此惊人。

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

I think that this is a really good example of this phenomenon, that the total effect of anything is a combined product of what you're doing and what you think about what you're doing.

我认为这是这种现象的一个很好的例子，任何事情的总效果都是你正在做的事情和你对正在做的事情的想法的结合产物。

So this was a study that I ran with Ellen Langer way back when I was an undergrad, actually, we started this study.

这是我在本科生时与艾伦·兰格 (Ellen Langer) 一起进行的一项研究，实际上，我们开始了这项研究。

Ellen Langer's a professor of psychology at Harvard.

艾伦·兰格是哈佛大学的心理学教授。

She's done a lot of really fascinating work on her flavor of mindfulness, which is distinct from a more Eastern mind ...

她在正念方面做了很多非常有趣的工作，这与更东方的思想截然不同......

Buddhist mindfulness-based work.

以佛教正念为基础的工作。

She actually was the one who said to me originally — I was an athlete at the time; I was a ice hockey player and I was training constantly, and one day, I'll never forget it, she said, "You know the benefit of exercise is just a placebo, right?" And I was like, well, that's outrageous.

其实她就是最初对我说的——我当时是一名运动员；我是一名冰球运动员，我不断地训练，有一天，我永远不会忘记，她说，“你知道运动的好处只是一种安慰剂，对吧？”我当时想，这太离谱了。

Ellen's known for saying very provocative but also very wise things.

艾伦以说出极具挑衅性但也非常明智的话而闻名。

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

That statement really got me thinking about that.

这句话确实引起了我的思考。

So we designed this study together and that was to look at, how would you study?

所以我们一起设计了这项研究，目的是看看你会如何学习？

If the benefits of exercise were a placebo, how would you even test that because what does it mean to give a placebo exercise?

如果运动的好处是安慰剂，你会如何测试它，因为给予安慰剂运动意味着什么？

So we flipped it on its head and we found a group of people who were getting a lot of exercise but weren't aware of it that they were.

所以我们颠倒了过来，我们发现一群人正在进行大量锻炼，但自己却没有意识到。

So this, we settled on a group of hotel housekeepers.

于是，我们就选定了一群酒店管家。

These were women working in hotels who were on their feet all day long.

这些是在酒店工作的女性，她们整天都站着。

Pushing carts, changing linens, climbing stairs, cleaning bathrooms, vacuuming.

推车、换床单、爬楼梯、清洁浴室、吸尘。

It was clear that they were getting above and beyond at least the surgeon general's requirements at that time which were to accumulate 30 minutes of moderate physical activity per day.

很明显，他们至少超出了当时卫生局局长的要求，即每天累积 30 分钟的中等体力活动。

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

What was interesting was when we went in and surveyed them and asked them, "How much exercise do you think you're getting?" A third of them said, "Zero, like, I don't get any exercise." And the average response was a three on a scale of zero to 10.

有趣的是，当我们进去调查他们并问他们“你认为你得到了多少锻炼？”其中三分之一的人说：“零，比如，我没有进行任何锻炼。”平均回答是 3（从 0 到 10）。

So it's clear that even though these women were active, they didn't have that mindset.

很明显，尽管这些女性很活跃，但她们并没有这种心态。

They had the mindset that their work was just work.

他们的心态是，他们的工作只是工作。

Hard, maybe thankless work that led them to feel tired and in pain at the end of the day.

艰苦的、也许是吃力不讨好的工作让他们在一天结束时感到疲倦和痛苦。

But not that it was good for them, that it was good exercise.

但这并不是说这对他们有好处，而是说这是很好的锻炼。

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

What we did was we took these women, and we randomized them into two groups, and we told half of them that their work was good exercise.

我们所做的就是把这些女性随机分为两组，我们告诉其中一半的人，她们的工作是很好的锻炼。

In this case it was true, factual information.

在这种情况下，这是真实的、事实的信息。

We oriented them to the surgeon general's guidelines.

我们让他们遵循卫生局局长的指导方针。

We oriented them to the benefits that they should be receiving.

我们让他们了解他们应该获得的好处。

And then we had measured them previously on their physiological metrics like weight and body fat and blood pressure.

然后我们之前测量了他们的生理指标，如体重、体脂和血压。

We came back four weeks later and we tested them again.

四个星期后我们回来并再次测试了它们。

What we found was that these women, even though they hadn't changed anything in their behavior, at least that was detectable to us, they didn't work more rooms, they didn't start doing pull-ups or push-ups in between cleaning hotel rooms, as far as I'm concerned, they didn't report any changes in their diet, but they had benefits to their health.

我们发现，这些女性，即使她们的行为没有任何改变，至少我们可以察觉到，她们没有工作更多的房间，她们没有在打扫酒店房间的间隙开始做引体向上或俯卧撑，就我而言，她们没有报告饮食有任何变化，但她们对健康有好处。

They lost weight.

他们体重减轻了。

They decreased their systolic blood pressure by about 10 points on average.

他们的收缩压平均降低了约 10 个百分点。

And they started feeling better about themselves, their bodies, and their work, not surprisingly.

他们开始对自己、自己的身体和工作感觉更好，这并不奇怪。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

That's amazing.

太棒了。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

How should we conceptualize that result in light of all of our efforts to get more out of exercise?

鉴于我们为从锻炼中获得更多收益而付出的所有努力，我们应该如何概念化这一结果？

Earlier you mentioned it from the milkshake study and our perceptions about nutrient density, that it's a little bit ...

早些时候您在奶昔研究中提到过，以及我们对营养密度的看法，它有点......

the right message that actually a little bit counterintuitive.

正确的信息实际上有点违反直觉。

That if you think, this is very low calorie, nutrient sparse, then it's good for me in the context of losing weight, for instance.

如果你认为，这是非常低热量，营养稀少，那么它对我来说有利于减肥，例如。

But it turns out the opposite is true because, as you told us, the body responds differently when you think something is nutrient dense and can actually suppress hunger more.

但事实证明事实恰恰相反，因为正如您告诉我们的那样，当您认为某些东西营养丰富并且实际上可以更多地抑制饥饿时，身体会做出不同的反应。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

In light of this result, if I were to say ...

鉴于这个结果，如果我说……

my current understanding of the literature is that getting somewhere between 150 and 180 minutes per week of cardiovascular exercise is probably a good idea for most people.

我目前对文献的理解是，每周进行 150 到 180 分钟的心血管锻炼对大多数人来说可能是个好主意。

If I tell myself that it's not just a good idea but that it's extremely effective in lowering my blood pressure and maintaining healthy weight, et cetera, et cetera, according to these results it will have an enhanced effect on those metrics.

如果我告诉自己这不仅是一个好主意，而且在降低血压和保持健康体重等方面非常有效，那么根据这些结果，它将对这些指标产生更大的影响。

Is that right?

是这样吗？

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

Definitely.

绝对是。

This is a really important point because what this reveals is that we have to be more thoughtful in how we go about motivating people to exercise or teaching people about the benefits.

这是非常重要的一点，因为这表明我们必须更加深思熟虑地思考如何激励人们锻炼或教导人们锻炼的好处。

Our current approach is just to basically tell people, writ large, "Here's what you need to get.

我们目前的方法只是基本上告诉人们，“这就是你需要得到的。

Here's what you need to get good for ...

这就是你需要做好的事情......

to get enough benefits to receive ...

获得足够的福利来接收...

enough exercise to receive the health benefits." The problem with that approach is that most people aren't meeting those benefits yet, or aren't meeting those requirements yet.

足够的锻炼才能获得健康益处。”这种方法的问题在于，大多数人尚未满足这些好处，或者尚未满足这些要求。

The risk with that is that while the intention with that is to motivate them because public health officials think, "Well, if I just tell people you need to get more exercise because it's good for you, they'll do it," we know now that doesn't work.

这样做的风险在于，虽然这样做的目的是激励他们，因为公共卫生官员认为，“好吧，如果我只是告诉人们你需要更多锻炼，因为这对你有好处，他们就会这么做，”我们现在知道这是行不通的。

That these guidelines are not motivational, they don't change our behavior.

这些指导方针不是激励性的，它们不会改变我们的行为。

And what our work adds to that is that not only is it not motivational, it also creates, potentially, a mindset that makes people worse off than they were without knowing about the guidelines.

我们的工作补充的是，它不仅没有激励作用，而且还可能产生一种心态，使人们的境况比不了解指导方针的情况更糟。

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

Again, it's tricky.

再说一次，这很棘手。

I'm not saying that mindset is everything.

我并不是说心态决定一切。

Certainly exercise is good for us and is helpful for us.

当然，锻炼对我们有好处，对我们有帮助。

It's one of the things we have the best data on.

这是我们拥有最好数据的事情之一。

So I'm not saying exercise is all a placebo.

所以我并不是说运动只是安慰剂。

What I am saying is that we need to be more mindful about, how do we motivate people to exercise, but how do we help people to actually reap the benefits of the exercise they are already doing?

我想说的是，我们需要更加留意，如何激励人们锻炼，但我们如何帮助人们真正从他们已经进行的锻炼中获益？

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

Now, Octavia Zart, who is a grad student in my lab, ran a number of interesting studies along these lines.

现在，我实验室的研究生奥克塔维亚·扎特（Octavia Zart）沿着这些思路进行了许多有趣的研究。

One in which she looked at three nationally representative data sets which had this interesting question in them, which was, "How much exercise do you get relative to others?

在其中，她查看了三个具有全国代表性的数据集，其中有一个有趣的问题，即“相对于其他人，你进行了多少锻炼？

Do you get about the same, a little more, a lot more?

你得到的结果是差不多、多一点还是更多？

Do you get a little less or a lot less?" Your listeners, you could all answer this.

是少了一点还是少了很多？”各位听众，你们都可以回答这个问题。

And then in these data sets, what she did was she had pulled from data that tracked death rates over the next 21 years, and a couple interesting things revealed themselves.

然后，在这些数据集中，她从追踪未来 21 年死亡率的数据中提取数据，结果发现了一些有趣的事情。

One was that the correlations between these perceptions of exercise relative to others and people's actual exercise is measured through accelerometer data as well as more rigorous "What did you do today" kind of data.

其中之一是，这些相对于他人的运动感知与人们的实际运动之间的相关性是通过加速度计数据以及更严格的“你今天做了什么”类型的数据来测量的。

Those don't correlate much at all.

这些根本没有太大关联。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

People lie.

人们撒谎。

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

Well, people lie.

好吧，人们会撒谎。

But also-

但也——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Or misperceive.

或者误会。

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

...

...

they misperceive.

他们误解了。

Or who's to say it's misperceiving?

或者谁能​​说这是错误的认知？

Everything's relative.

一切都是相对的。

I used to do triathlons very seriously, so if you were to ask me now, I feel like I'm totally inactive because I'm not doing anything near what I used to.

我曾经非常认真地参加铁人三项，所以如果你现在问我，我觉得我完全不活跃，因为我没有做任何接近我以前所做的事情。

And if that's my focus set, I feel like I'm not exercising much ...

如果这是我的焦点，我觉得我锻炼得不多......

But if I think about compared to other people, given what I know about national representative statistics, and I could feel like, "Oh, I'm getting a lot," right?

但如果我考虑与其他人相比，考虑到我对国家代表性统计数据的了解，我可能会觉得，“哦，我得到了很多，”对吧？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right.

对。

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

So you can see how these perceptions are decoupled from objective reality.

所以你可以看到这些看法是如何与客观现实脱钩的。

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

What we found in these studies is that one question mattered in some cases more than objective activity, but in all cases controlling for objective activity in predicting death rates.

我们在这些研究中发现，在某些情况下，一个问题比客观活动更重要，但在所有情况下，在预测死亡率时都控制了客观活动。

In one of the samples it was a 71% higher risk of death rate if people rated themselves as feeling like they were getting less activity than others.

在其中一个样本中，如果人们认为自己感觉自己的活动量比其他人少，则死亡率会高出 71%。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Wow.

哇。

That's a big deal.

这是一件大事。

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

It's a big deal.

这是一件大事。

And again, that study is cross-sectional, longitudinal.

再说一次，这项研究是横向的、纵向的。

It was not experimental.

这不是实验性的。

But combined, these really coalesced to say, "Hey, this is important too." Let's figure out ways to be active and get people active, but let's also not make people feel horrible about themselves when they're not getting enough.

但结合起来，这些确实结合在一起说：“嘿，这也很重要。”让我们找出积极的方法并让人们积极起来，但我们也不要让人们在没有得到足够的帮助时对自己感到害怕。

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

Going back to the hotel study again, I mentioned that I did that at a time when I was a division one ice hockey player at the time.

再次回到酒店研究，我提到我当时是一级冰球运动员时这样做的。

We were training all the time, and I was in an unhealthy mindset about that.

我们一直在训练，而我对此的心态是不健康的。

I never felt like I was getting enough.

我从来没有觉得自己得到足够的东西。

I would come off a two-hour practice into a weightlifting session, and then I would get on the elliptical for 30 minutes because I thought I had to do that also.

我会先进行两个小时的举重练习，然后在椭圆机上锻炼 30 分钟，因为我认为我也必须这样做。

My teammates who were with me at the time could attest to that.

当时和我在一起的队友可以证明这一点。

And so that study was really helpful for me to realize that I needed to pay attention not just to what I was doing, but also take care of my mindset about that.

所以这项研究对我很有帮助，让我认识到我不仅需要关注我正在做的事情，而且还要照顾我的心态。

I think the essence is, how do you get people to feel like they're getting enough?

我认为本质是，如何让人们感觉他们得到了足够的东西？

It's a sense of enoughness that really matters.

真正重要的是一种足够的感觉。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I can see the dilemma because you don't want people thinking that exercise and its positive effects are so potent that they can get away with a three-minute walk each day and that they're good because most likely they are not.

我能理解这种困境，因为你不希望人们认为锻炼及其积极作用是如此强大，以至于他们每天步行三分钟就可以摆脱困境，并且认为锻炼很好，因为很可能事实并非如此。

But again, you don't want them to be so back on their heels psychologically that they don't even do that or that they never exceed that by very much.

但同样，你不希望他们在心理上如此落后，以至于他们甚至不这样做，或者他们从未超过太多。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It seems like the message from the milkshake study and what we're talking about now in terms of exercise would be to really communicate to the general public that food has a potency.

奶昔研究所传达的信息以及我们现在所谈论的锻炼似乎是要真正向公众传达食物具有功效的信息。

Even healthy foods have a potency to give us energy, to fuel our immune system and endocrine system, et cetera.

即使是健康食品也有能力为我们提供能量，为我们的免疫系统和内分泌系统提供能量，等等。

And that exercise has a remarkable potency, and that that potency can be enhanced by believing in or understanding that potency.

这种练习具有非凡的效力，并且可以通过相信或理解这种效力来增强这种效力。

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

Exactly.

正是如此。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Is that an accurate way to state it?

这是准确的表述方式吗？

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

That's exactly right.

完全正确。

And that's where I really feel like we need to push.

这就是我真正觉得我们需要推动的地方。

And what I try to do in our research is to not just show, "Oh, mindset matters, isn't that interesting?" But it's ...

我在研究中试图做的不仅仅是表明，“哦，心态很重要，这不是很有趣吗？”但它是...

both matter, right?

两者都很重要，对吗？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

Both exercise and what you think about it matter.

锻炼和你对锻炼的看法都很重要。

Both what you eat and how you think about what you eat matter.

你吃什么以及你如何看待你吃的东西都很重要。

And so we really, as individuals and as a society, need to work on what is the right way to cultivate both behaviors and mindsets about those behaviors that serve us?

因此，作为个人和社会，我们确实需要努力寻找正确的方法来培养那些为我们服务的行为和心态？

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

In the food context, this again, that milkshake study really changed me on a personal level because I had been somebody who was constantly trying to restrain my eating.

在食物方面，奶昔研究确实在个人层面上改变了我，因为我一直是一个不断试图限制自己饮食的人。

I wanted to maintain or lose weight, look fit.

我想保持或减肥，看起来健康。

And so I felt it was like, well, I should diet, I should have low calorie, low carb, low this, low that.

所以我觉得，嗯，我应该节食，我应该低热量，低碳水化合物，低这个，低那个。

But what that was doing was putting me into this constant mindset of restraint.

但这让我陷入了这种持续克制的心态中。

And what that study suggested was that that mindset was potentially counteracting any benefit or any objective effects of the restrained diet.

该研究表明，这种心态可能会抵消限制饮食的任何好处或任何客观效果。

My brain was saying, "Okay, you're restraining." Maybe my body was responding to that.

我的大脑在说：“好吧，你克制了。”也许我的身体正在对此做出反应。

But the brain was also saying, "Eat more food, stay hungry because you need to survive."

但大脑也在说：“多吃食物，保持饥饿，因为你需要生存。”

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

The answer isn't, well, throw everything into the wind and just drink indulgent milkshakes all day long.

答案并不是把一切都抛在脑后，整天喝奶昔。

The answer is, eat healthy foods based on the latest science and what we know to be true about nutrients and our body's response to them.

答案是，根据最新的科学知识以及我们所知道的关于营养素和我们身体对它们的反应的真实知识来吃健康食品。

But try to do so in a mindset of indulgence, a mindset of satisfaction, a mindset of enjoyment.

但尝试以一种放纵的心态、一种满足的心态、一种享受的心态来这样做。

That is really the trick.

这确实是诀窍。

And that's what I, at least, try to do in my own life.

至少，这就是我在自己的生活中尝试做的事情。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I love that.

我喜欢那个。

And as I get more involved in public-facing health communications, this comes up again and again.

随着我更多地参与面向公众的健康传播，这个问题一次又一次地出现。

How should we conceptualize our behavior?

我们应该如何概念化我们的行为？

How should we think about all these options that are offered to us?

我们应该如何考虑提供给我们的所有这些选择？

I'm excited that the potency of mindsets are coming through again and again.

我很高兴心态的力量一次又一次地显现出来。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I have a question about this.

我对此有一个疑问。

I don't know if this study has ever been done, but a lot of these mindset effects are something that years ago I felt I did vis-à-vis sleep.

我不知道这项研究是否曾经做过，但很多心态影响都是几年前我觉得我对睡眠造成的。

I was in graduate school, and as a postdoc, and even as an undergraduate, I had so much work to do that I decided I would sleep when I was dead, in quotes.

我当时正在读研究生，作为一名博士后，甚至作为一名本科生，我有太多的工作要做，所以我决定在我死后睡觉，用引号引起来。

Not a good idea from what we know.

据我们所知，这不是一个好主意。

However, I found that a couple nights of minimal sleep or even an all-nighter and I could do pretty well.

然而，我发现几个晚上的睡眠很少，甚至通宵达旦，我都可以做得很好。

Eventually it would catch up with me.

最终它会追上我。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Has there ever been a study exploring whether or not the effects of sleep deprivation can be impacted by these mindset effects?

是否有过一项研究探讨睡眠剥夺的影响是否会受到这些心态影响的影响？

Over the years I keep learning more and more about how much sleep I need, and I've really emphasized sleep, and I do feel much better when I'm getting it.

多年来，我不断了解自己需要多少睡眠，而且我非常重视睡眠，当我得到睡眠时，我确实感觉好多了。

But as new parents know or students know or athletes know, or anyone that lives a normal life finds sometimes that they don't get a good night's sleep.

但正如新手父母、学生、运动员或任何过着正常生活的人所知，有时他们会发现自己晚上睡不好觉。

Would believing that we can tolerate that and push through it and function just fine and that it's not going to kill us or give us Alzheimer's, could that help us deal with a poor night sleep or even two, or chronic sleep deprivation?

相信我们可以忍受这一点，克服它，功能正常，并且它不会杀死我们或让我们患上阿尔茨海默氏症，这是否可以帮助我们应对夜间睡眠不佳甚至两次睡眠不足或长期睡眠不足的问题？

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

Certainly, I would guess.

当然，我猜。

There's been one study, to my knowledge, that's tested that, and colleagues.

据我所知，有一项研究和同事对此进行了测试。

They had people come in and they gave them, I think it was a sham EEG test to figure out the ...

他们让人进来并给了他们，我认为这是一个假脑电图测试来找出......

this was done a number of years ago.

这是几年前完成的。

Now we actually have devices to test this.

现在我们实际上有设备来测试这一点。

But theirs was this sham test, and then they gave people fake feedback about the quality of their sleep and how it had been the night before.

但他们的测试是虚假的，然后他们向人们提供关于他们的睡眠质量以及前一天晚上的情况的虚假反馈。

They also asked the participants how they felt about their sleep.

他们还询问参与者对睡眠的感受。

Essentially what they found was that this sham feedback, if they were told that they had gotten lower quality sleep, led to deficits in a variety of cognitive tasks and that was decoupled from their actual qualities of sleep, at least as self-reported.

从本质上讲，他们发现，如果他们被告知自己的睡眠质量较低，这种虚假反馈会导致各种认知任务的缺陷，并且这与他们的实际睡眠质量脱节，至少在自我报告中是这样。

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

That's one study that attests to this.

一项研究证明了这一点。

Certainly I would bet a lot of money.

当然我会赌很多钱。

I haven't run those myself, but that your mindsets can push around your cognitive functioning, physiological effects of sleep.

我自己没有做过这些实验，但你的心态可以影响你的认知功能和睡眠的生理影响。

But once again, it's not all or nothing, right?

但话又说回来，这不是全有或全无，对吧？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right.

对。

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

There are real important benefits of sleep, and how far we can push around that through our mindset is an open question.

睡眠确实有重要的好处，但我们能通过我们的心态在多大程度上推动这一点仍然是一个悬而未决的问题。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

The result that you mentioned is really interesting because a lot of people use these sleep trackers now.

你提到的结果非常有趣，因为现在很多人都在使用这些睡眠追踪器。

They're using rings or wristbands.

他们使用戒指或腕带。

In fact, my lab has worked pretty closely with a company, they supplied us data on how well people are sleeping, and you get a score.

事实上，我的实验室与一家公司密切合作，他们向我们提供了人们睡眠质量的数据，然后你就得到了一个分数。

People get the score back and when they see that score, they might think, based on these results, "Ugh, My recovery score, my sleep score is poor.

人们得到分数，当他们看到该分数时，他们可能会根据这些结果认为，“呃，我的恢复分数，我的睡眠分数很差。

I shouldn't expect much from myself today." Or, "It makes sense that my memory would be going."

我今天不应该对自己抱太大期望。”或者，“我的记忆会消失，这是有道理的。”

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

For this reason, and I'll probably lose a few friends for saying this but hopefully I'll gain a few as well, that's why I like to just do a subjective score for myself.

出于这个原因，我可能会因为这样说而失去一些朋友，但希望我也能获得一些朋友，这就是为什么我喜欢为自己做一个主观评分。

If I wake up in the morning, I just decide, did I sleep well or not?

如果我早上醒来，我就会决定，我睡得好不好？

I don't like seeing a number.

我不喜欢看到数字。

I don't like getting a readout from a device.

我不喜欢从设备中获取读数。

That's me.

这就是我。

I know a lot of people like it and they can be very useful, but gosh, it seems that these belief effects are weaving in at all levels.

我知道很多人喜欢它，而且它们非常有用，但是天哪，这些信念效应似乎正在各个层面上交织在一起。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I'd love for us to talk about stress because your lab has worked extensively on this.

我很乐意我们谈论压力，因为你们的实验室在这方面做了广泛的工作。

And if you would, could you tell us at some point about the study that you've done about informing people about the different effects of stress?

如果您愿意的话，您能告诉我们您所做的关于让人们了解压力的不同影响的研究吗？

But also, if there's an opportunity, some takeaways about how we could each conceptualize stress in ways that would make it serve us better, as opposed to harm us and our mental and physical performance.

而且，如果有机会的话，我们可以分享一些关于如何以一种更好的方式来概念化压力的要点，以使其更好地为我们服务，而不是伤害我们以及我们的身心表现。

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

Great.

太棒了。

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

I'd come off the heels of doing some research in exercise and diet and finding these provocative and also counterintuitive effects with respect to how we should try to motivate people.

我对运动和饮食进行了一些研究，发现这些对于我们应该如何激励人们具有挑衅性且违反直觉的影响。

As I was thinking about this and this grouping of going from medicines as to saving us, to behaviors to saving us and how those behaviors might be influenced by mindsets, the obvious next thing to think about was stress.

当我思考这个问题以及从药物拯救我们到行为拯救我们以及这些行为如何受到心态的影响时，接下来要考虑的显然是压力。

It's like, "Well, you want to be healthier, fix your diet, fix your exercise, and stress less."

就像，“好吧，你想要更健康，调整你的饮食，调整你的锻炼，减少压力。”

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

So I started doing some digging into the nature of stress and a couple things were clear.

所以我开始深入研究压力的本质，有几件事很清楚。

One was that the public health message was very clear that stress was bad.

一是公共卫生信息非常明确，压力是不好的。

Unmitigated and harmful on our health, our productivity, our relationships, our fertility, our cognition.

对我们的健康、我们的生产力、我们的人际关系、我们的生育能力和我们的认知造成彻底的和有害的。

You name it.

你说出它的名字。

The messages that were out there, by and large, oversimplified messages focused on the damaging consequences of stress.

总的来说，那里的信息过于简单化，集中在压力的破坏性后果上。

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

But as you know, if you actually dive deeper into the literature on stress and the origins of stress, what you find is that the literature, like most literatures, is not so clear-cut.

但如您所知，如果您真正深入研究有关压力和压力起源的文献，您会发现这些文献与大多数文献一样，并不是那么明确。

In fact, there's a large amount of evidence to support the fact that the experience of stress, meaning encountering adversity or challenge in one's goal-related efforts, does not have to be debilitating.

事实上，有大量证据支持这样一个事实：压力的经历，即在与目标相关的努力中遇到逆境或挑战，并不一定会让人衰弱。

In many cases, the body's response was designed to enhance our ability to manage at those moments.

在许多情况下，身体的反应旨在增强我们在这些时刻的管理能力。

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

So some research showing that stress narrows our focus, increases our attention, speeds up the rate at which we're able to process information.

因此，一些研究表明，压力会缩小我们的注意力，增加我们的注意力，加快我们处理信息的速度。

There was some research out there showing this phenomenon of physiological toughening, the process by which the release of catabolic hormones in the stress response recruit or activate anabolic hormones, which help, as you know, build our muscles, build our neurons to help us grow and learn.

有一些研究表明了这种生理增韧的现象，即压力反应中分解代谢激素的释放招募或激活合成代谢激素的过程，正如你所知，这有助于增强我们的肌肉，增强我们的神经元以帮助我们成长和学习。

There was a whole body of emerging research on post-traumatic growth, or this phenomenon in which even the experience of the most traumatic stressors, the most chronic and enduring stressors could lead not to destruction, but in fact to the exact opposite, to an enhanced sense of connection with our values, connection to others, sense of joy and passion for living.

有一整套关于创伤后成长的新兴研究，或者说，在这种现象中，即使是最具创伤性的压力源、最长期和持久的压力源的经历也可能不会导致毁灭，而事实上会导致完全相反的结果，增强与我们的价值观、与他人的联系、快乐感和对生活的热情。

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

I found that to be interesting.

我发现这很有趣。

And my work since then has been not to try to argue that stress is enhancing and not debilitating, but try to point out that the true nature of stress is a paradox.

从那时起，我的工作并不是试图论证压力会增强而不是削弱，而是试图指出压力的真正本质是一个悖论。

The true nature of stress is manifold and complex and lots of things can happen, but to question, what's the role of our mindset about stress in shaping our response to stress?

压力的本质是多方面的、复杂的，可能会发生很多事情，但问题是，我们对压力的心态在塑造我们对压力的反应方面发挥着什么作用？

So some work had already been done looking at your perception of the stressor.

因此，我们已经完成了一些工作来了解您对压力源的看法。

Do you view a stressor like a challenging exam or a health diagnosis as a challenge or a threat?

您是否将挑战性考试或健康诊断等压力源视为挑战或威胁？

And that had shown, pretty convincingly, that when you view stressors more as a challenge, less as a threat, that your brain and body responds more adaptively.

这非常令人信服地表明，当你将压力源更多地视为挑战而不是威胁时，你的大脑和身体会做出更适应性的反应。

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

What our question was, was to take the psychological construal one step higher in abstraction.

我们的问题是，将心理解释的抽象性提高一层。

So not just the stressor but the nature of stress.

因此，不仅仅是压力源，还有压力的本质。

At that core level, do you view stress as something that's bad, is going to kill us and therefore should be avoided?

在这个核心层面上，你是否认为压力是一件坏事，会杀死我们，因此应该避免？

Or do you view stress as natural and something that's going to enhance us?

或者你认为压力是自然的并且可以增强我们的能力？

And so we set out to design a series of studies to test the extent to which these mindsets about stress mattered.

因此，我们着手设计一系列研究来测试这些关于压力的心态的重要性。

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

This, again, was with Peter Salovey and Shawn Achor.

这也是彼得·萨洛维和肖恩·阿科尔的作品。

Originally we designed a measure to test people's mindsets about stress.

最初我们设计了一项措施来测试人们对压力的心态。

Simple questions like, "What extent do you believe or agree or disagree with statements like, 'stress enhances my performance and productivity, stress heightens my vitality and growth?'" Things like that.

简单的问题，比如“你在多大程度上相信、同意或不同意‘压力提高我的表现和生产力，压力增强我的活力和成长？’”之类的说法。

And we found in a number of correlational studies that that more enhancing stress mindset was linked to better health outcomes, better well-being, and higher performance.

我们在许多相关研究中发现，增强压力心态与更好的健康结果、更好的幸福感和更高的绩效有关。

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

Then we set out to see if we could change people's mindsets.

然后我们开始看看是否可以改变人们的心态。

In our first test of this, we decided to do so by creating these multimedia films that showcased research anecdotes, facts about stress.

在我们对此的第一次测试中，我们决定通过制作这些多媒体电影来展示研究轶事和有关压力的事实。

All true, but oriented towards one mindset or the other.

都是正确的，但面向一种心态或另一种心态。

So you can imagine one set of film showed basically the messages that were out there in the public health context.

所以你可以想象一组电影基本上展示了公共卫生背景下的信息。

The other showed, "Stress has been linked to these things, but in fact, the body stress response was designed to do this.

另一位则表示，“压力与这些事情有关，但事实上，身体的压力反应就是为了做到这一点而设计的。

Did you know it could do that?" And we had empowering images like LeBron James making the free throw in the final minute, versus missing it.

你知道它可以做到这一点吗？”我们看到了像勒布朗·詹姆斯在最后一分钟罚球而不是罚丢的令人振奋的画面。

All of these things are true, possibilities, but oriented to two different mindsets about stress.

所有这些都是真实的、可能的，但针对的是两种不同的压力心态。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Either people saw a video that basically made it seem like stress will diminish you, crush you, reduce you.

要么人们看到了一段视频，基本上让人觉得压力会削弱你、压垮你、削弱你。

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Or a video very similar.

或者非常相似的视频。

Stress will grow you, bring out your best, and maybe even take you to heightened levels of performance that you've never experienced before.

压力会让你成长，让你发挥出最好的水平，甚至可能让你达到以前从未经历过的更高水平。

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

Exactly.

正是如此。

Exactly.

确切地。

So, examples in the sports.

体育运动中的例子。

We also had true leaders emerge in the moments of greatest stress.

我们还让真正的领导者在压力最大的时刻脱颖而出。

Churchill.

丘吉尔。

All those examples are out there for both the enhancing nature and the debilitating nature.

所有这些例子都既有增强性的一面，也有削弱性的一面。

And our question was, does orienting people to different mindsets change how they respond to stress?

我们的问题是，让人们适应不同的心态是否会改变他们应对压力的方式？

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

This study was done in the wake of the 2008 financial crisis.

这项研究是在 2008 年金融危机之后进行的。

We worked with UBS, a company, a financial service company that was undergoing pretty massive amounts of layoffs.

我们与瑞银集团合作，这是一家金融服务公司，当时正在进行大量裁员。

These employees were stressed about being laid off; they were taking on more pressure.

这些员工面临着被解雇的压力；他们承受着更大的压力。

It was just a tough time.

那只是一段艰难的时光。

And we randomized them into three conditions.

我们将他们随机分为三种情况。

And this was all prework before getting a training on stress.

这都是接受压力培训之前的准备工作。

But the three different conditions, some watched no videos, some watched the "Stress will crush you" videos, and some watched the "Stress could enhance you" videos.

但这三种情况不同，有的没有看视频，有的看了“压力会压垮你”视频，有的看了“压力可以增强你”视频。

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

What we found was that just, it was a total of nine minutes of videos over the course of the week led to changes in their mindsets about stress.

我们发现，一周内总共九分钟的视频导致了他们对压力的心态发生了变化。

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

...

...

course of the week led to changes in their mindsets about stress, which led to changes in their physiological symptoms associated with stress.

一周的过程导致他们对压力的心态发生变化，从而导致与压力相关的生理症状发生变化。

So people who watched the enhancing films had fewer backaches, muscle tension, insomnia, racing heart, and so forth.

因此，观看增强片的人较少出现背痛、肌肉紧张、失眠、心跳加速等症状。

And they also reported performing better at work, compared to those who watched the debilitating videos.

与观看令人衰弱的视频的人相比，他们的工作表现也更好。

Now, interestingly, we didn't make anyone worse with the debilitating videos.

现在，有趣的是，我们并没有通过这些令人衰弱的视频让任何人变得更糟。

PART 2 OF 4 ENDS Andrew Huberman:

第 2 部分（共 4 部分）结束 Andrew Huberman：

Well, that's good.

嗯，那很好。

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

Which was good.

这很好。

We had told the IRB we didn't expect that because that message was already out there.

我们告诉IRB，我们没想到会出现这种情况，因为该消息已经发布了。

That's what they were already seeing.

这就是他们已经看到的。

That wasn't new to them.

这对他们来说并不新鲜。

It was more this enhancing perspective that turned out to be inspiring.

事实证明，这种增强的观点更具有启发性。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I love that study, and I know we both have friends and ties in the special operations community through just sort of happenstance, and maybe we'll get into that a little later.

我喜欢这项研究，而且我知道我们在特种作战界都有朋友和联系，这只是偶然的情况，也许我们稍后会讨论这个问题。

But a good friend from that community always says, "There are only three ways to go through life at any moment, which is either back on your heels, flat-footed, or forward center of mass." And I said, "Well, what's the key to forward center of mass?" And he said, "Stress is what places you in forward center of mass," meaning leaning forward and into challenge.

但那个社区的一位好朋友总是说：“任何时候，人生只有三种方式，要么后跟，要么措手不及，要么重心前移。”我说：“那么，向前重心的关键是什么？”他说，“压力是让你处于重心前方的原因”，意思是向前倾斜并迎接挑战。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And I know that you've actually looked at that community, and it does really seem like that's a mindset that either they have going in or that they cultivate through the course of their training.

我知道你实际上已经观察过这个社区，并且确实看起来这是他们已经进入或通过培训过程培养的一种心态。

But this notion that stress is what puts us in forward motion is true physiologically, right?

但压力是推动我们前进的因素这一观点在生理上是正确的，对吗？

I mean, adrenaline's major role is to place us into a moment, or bias us towards action.

我的意思是，肾上腺素的主要作用是让我们进入某个时刻，或者引导我们采取行动。

That's why we tremble.

这就是我们颤抖的原因。

It's the body trying to initiate action.

这是身体试图发起行动。

But actually this is probably a good opportunity if there's anything interesting to extract from the study on SEAL Teams.

但实际上，如果可以从海豹突击队的研究中提取出任何有趣的东西，这可能是一个很好的机会。

What was it?

那是什么？

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

Yeah, no, I loved working with the SEALS.

是的，不，我喜欢和海豹突击队一起工作。

One of the interesting things we found; so we've studied this, measured this mindset in several different populations, and in every single one that we had tested so far, the average had been on the debilitating side of the scale.

我们发现的有趣的事情之一；所以我们对此进行了研究，在几个不同的人群中测量了这种心态，在迄今为止我们测试过的每一个人群中，平均值都处于令人衰弱的一侧。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

People just saying stress is bad.

人们只是说压力不好。

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

Stress is bad.

压力是不好的。

And with measures of growth and fixed mindsets about intelligence, people are in the middle but oftentimes have a more positive mindset about intelligence.

根据关于智力的成长和固定心态的衡量标准，人们处于中间位置，但通常对智力有更积极的心态。

That was not the case with stress.

压力的情况并非如此。

It's still not the case.

情况仍然不是这样。

I'm trying to get the message out there, except for this group of Navy SEALS, where they were actually recruits.

我正试图向外界传达这一信息，除了这支海豹突击队，他们实际上是新兵。

So people who were going through basic training in order to become Navy SEALS.

那些为了成为海豹突击队而接受基础训练的人。

And we found that they, on average, had a stress is enhancing mindset.

我们发现，平均而言，他们有一种压力正在增强的心态。

Perhaps not surprisingly, if you're going in to devote your whole life to being a Navy SEAL, you must have some inclination that stress is a source of strength for you.

也许并不奇怪，如果你打算将一生奉献给海豹突击队，你一定会认为压力是你力量的源泉。

But what we found with them, we measured this at the beginning of their basic training of BUD/S training, and then looked at how well they succeeded through that program.

但我们在他们身上发现了什么，我们在他们的 BUD/S 培训基础训练开始时对此进行了测量，然后观察他们通过该计划的成功程度。

So as you know, this is an extremely rigorous program.

如您所知，这是一个极其严格的计划。

At the time, it was only 10 or 20% of-

当时，只有 10% 或 20%——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Still is.

仍然是。

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

...

...

trainees make it through.

受训者顺利通过。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Their numbers have never shifted.

他们的人数从未改变过。

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Pretty much from about that.

差不多就是这样。

No matter how hard pressures on the community change, the numbers are still, on average, about 15%.

无论社区面临的压力有多么大的变化，这个数字平均仍然在 15% 左右。

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

Yeah.

是的。

Wow.

哇。

So what we found was that our measure predicted that rate.

所以我们发现我们的措施预测了这个比率。

So people who even within that range had a more stress is enhancing mindset were more likely to complete training, become a SEAL.

因此，即使在这个范围内，那些有更大压力的人也更有可能完成训练，成为一名海豹突击队员。

They also had faster obstacle course times and they were rated by their peers more positively.

他们的障碍训练时间也更快，并且同伴对他们的评价也更积极。

So again, let's break this down.

再次，让我们来分解一下。

This doesn't mean, and people get this wrong sometimes.

这并不意味着，人们有时会犯错。

They think that I'm saying that a stress is enhancing mindset means you should like stress, right?

他们认为我说压力可以增强心态意味着你应该喜欢压力，对吗？

Well, maybe the SEALS do, but that's not what we're saying.

好吧，也许海豹突击队是这么做的，但这不是我们所说的。

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

Having a stress is enhancing mindset doesn't mean the stressor is a good thing.

有压力可以增强心态，但这并不意味着压力源是一件好事。

It doesn't mean it's a good thing that you have to go into combat, and it's not pretty.

这并不意味着你必须参加战斗是一件好事，而且这并不漂亮。

It doesn't mean that getting a cancer diagnosis is a good thing, or being in abject poverty is a good thing.

这并不意味着被诊断出癌症是一件好事，或者处于赤贫状态是一件好事。

These are not good things.

这些都不是好事。

But the experience of the stress associated with that, the challenge, the adversity, that experience can lead to enhancing outcomes with respect to not just our cognition, but our health, our performance, and our well-being.

但与此相关的压力、挑战、逆境的经历不仅可以改善我们的认知，还可以改善我们的健康、表现和幸福感。

So that mindset, how does that work?

那么这种心态是如何运作的呢？

Well, it works through a number of different pathways.

嗯，它通过许多不同的途径发挥作用。

One is that it changes fundamentally what we're motivated to do.

一是它从根本上改变了我们做事的动力。

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

So if you just imagine we're stressed about something, maybe a global pandemic, for example-

因此，如果你想象我们对某些事情感到压力，例如全球大流行——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

For instance.

例如。

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

For instance.

例如。

And you think that stress is bad, then what's your motivation?

你认为压力不好，那么你的动机是什么？

Your motivation is to, well, first you get worried about the stress, right?

你的动机是，首先你会担心压力，对吗？

Now, not only do you have the pandemic, you're stressed about the stress of the pandemic, but second is your reaction is typically to do one of two things.

现在，你不仅面临着大流行病，你还对大流行病的压力感到压力，但其次，你的反应通常是做两件事之一。

It's either to freak out and do everything you can to make sure that this doesn't affect you negatively, or to check out and say, "Oh, it's not a big deal.

要么惊慌失措，尽一切努力确保这不会对你产生负面影响，要么检查后说：“哦，这没什么大不了的。

I'm not going to deal with it." You're basically in denial.

我不会处理它。”你基本上是在否认。

So people who have a stress is debilitating mindset, and we've shown this in our research, tend to go to one or the other of those extremes.

因此，有压力的人会导致心态衰弱，我们的研究表明，他们往往会走向其中一个极端。

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

They freak out or they check out.

他们要么惊慌失措，要么退房。

Why?

为什么？

Because if stress is bad, you need to either get rid of it and deal with it, or it needs to not exist.

因为如果压力是坏的，你需要要么摆脱它并处理它，要么它就不需要存在。

If you have a stress is enhancing mindset, the motivation changes.

如果你的压力正在增强心态，那么动机就会改变。

Then the motivation is, "How do I utilize this stress to realize the enhancing outcomes?

那么动机是，“我如何利用这种压力来实现增强的结果？

What can we do here to learn from this experience to make us stronger, fitter, have better science, and treatments for the future, deepen my relationships with others, improve my priorities and so forth." So the motivation changes.

我们能从这次经历中学到什么，让我们变得更强壮、更健康，为未来提供更好的科学和治疗方法，加深我与他人的关系，改善我的优先事项等等。”所以动机发生了变化。

The affect around it changes.

它周围的影响发生了变化。

It doesn't make it easy to deal with.

这并不容易处理。

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

But what we've shown in our research is that people who have a stress is enhancing mindset have more positive affect, not necessarily less negative affect, and it potentially changes physiology.

但我们的研究表明，拥有压力增强心态的人会产生更多的积极影响，不一定会减少消极影响，而且它可能会改变生理机能。

We have a few studies that show that people who are inspired to adopt more enhancing mindsets have more moderate cortisol response, and they have higher levels of DHEA levels in response to stress.

我们的一些研究表明，那些受到启发而采取更积极的心态的人有更温和的皮质醇反应，并且他们在应对压力时具有更高水平的 DHEA 水平。

So more work needs to be done in the physiology, but I'd love your take on the mechanisms through which that's possible.

因此，在生理学方面还需要做更多的工作，但我希望您能了解实现这一目标的机制。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yes, and DHEA, of course, has an anabolic hormone in both men and women.

是的，当然，DHEA 在男性和女性中都有合成代谢激素。

Very interesting because we had a guest on this podcast, he's a PhD scientist who runs the UFC Performance Training Institute.

非常有趣，因为我们在这个播客上邀请了一位嘉宾，他是一位博士科学家，经营着 UFC 表演培训学院。

His name is Duncan French, and his graduate work at UConn, Storrs, was very interesting.

他的名字叫邓肯·弗伦奇（Duncan French），他在康涅狄格大学斯托斯分校的研究生工作非常有趣。

It was in exercise science and physiology.

这是运动科学和生理学。

What he showed was that if you could spike the adrenaline response, I think they did this through first-time skydive, or something like that, that testosterone went up.

他所展示的是，如果你能激发肾上腺素反应，我认为他们通过第一次跳伞或类似的事情做到了这一点，那么睾丸激素就会上升。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Now this spits in the face of everything that we're told about stress and testosterone levels.

现在，这与我们所知道的有关压力和睾丸激素水平的一切相悖。

And this has also been looked at in females, with estrogen, although of course there's estrogen and testosterone in both males and females.

尽管男性和女性都含有雌激素和睾酮，但在女性中也观察到了这一点，因为雌激素。

But that's how they designed the study.

但这就是他们设计研究的方式。

So it turns out that at least in the short term, that a very stressful event can raise anabolic hormones.

因此，事实证明，至少在短期内，压力很大的事件会提高合成代谢激素的水平。

And I think that people forget at a mechanistic level that adrenaline is epinephrine, and epinephrine is derived, biochemically derived from the molecule dopamine.

我认为人们在机械层面上忘记了肾上腺素是肾上腺素，而肾上腺素是从多巴胺分子的生化衍生而来的。

If you look at the pathway and even just Google it and go Images, you'll see that adrenaline is made from dopamine.

如果你看看这条通路，甚至只是用谷歌搜索并浏览图片，你就会发现肾上腺素是由多巴胺制成的。

And dopamine and these anabolic hormones have a very, they're sort of close cousins.

多巴胺和这些合成代谢激素有非常密切的关系。

They work together in the pituitary hypothalamus.

它们在垂体下丘脑中协同工作。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So it makes sense that one could leverage stress toward growth and towards anabolism, as opposed to cannibalism, which is not saying cannibalism as in eating other people, but catabolic processes is, I guess, the right way to refer to it.

因此，人们可以利用压力来促进生长和合成代谢，而不是同类相食，这并不是说同类相食，而是吃掉其他人，但我想，分解代谢过程才是正确的说法。

But what's again remarkable to me is that all of these brain structures that control dopamine, epinephrine, testosterone, and estrogen, they're all thought to be in the subconscious, meaning below our ability to flip a switch and turn them on or off.

但对我来说，再次值得注意的是，所有这些控制多巴胺、肾上腺素、睾酮和雌激素的大脑结构都被认为位于潜意识中，这意味着我们无法打开或关闭它们。

And yet mindset seem to impact them.

然而心态似乎会影响他们。

All that to say that there's a clear mechanistic basis by which this could all work.

所有这些都表明，这一切都有一个明确的机制基础可以发挥作用。

And so on the one hand, I'm surprised because these are incredible results, on the other hand, I'm not surprised because there's a physiological substrate there that could readily explain them.

因此，一方面，我很惊讶，因为这些都是令人难以置信的结果，另一方面，我并不感到惊讶，因为那里有一个生理基础可以很容易地解释它们。

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

And I think figuring out exactly how it works is really-

我认为弄清楚它到底是如何工作的真的是——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

We should do that.

我们应该这样做。

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

We should do that.

我们应该这样做。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

We should collaborate.

我们应该合作。

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

Let's do it.

让我们开始吧。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

We've got common friends in both departments, so we should do it.

我们在两个部门都有共同的朋友，所以我们应该这样做。

Why not?

为什么不呢？

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

But I did want to mention the way I think about mindset.

但我确实想提一下我对心态的看法。

And again, I think we need to study this.

再说一次，我认为我们需要研究这个。

I'm not a neuroscientist, so I haven't looked at this, but this is something we could do.

我不是神经科学家，所以我没有看过这个，但这是我们可以做的事情。

But the way I think about mindset is that it's ...

但我对心态的看法是……

mindsets are kind of a portal between conscious and subconscious processes.

心态是意识和潜意识过程之间的门户。

They operate as a default setting of the mind.

它们作为思维的默认设置运行。

So if sort of programmed in there, you have "Stress equals bad." That's going to be something maybe conscious, but it doesn't have to be conscious.

因此，如果在那里进行编程，你就会得到“压力等于坏”。这可能是有意识的，但不一定是有意识的。

People don't have to know their mindsets about stress until they're asked.

在被询问之前，人们不必知道自己对压力的看法。

Really.

真的。

That's been programmed in through our upbringing, through public health messages, and through media, and other things.

这是通过我们的成长过程、通过公共卫生信息、通过媒体和其他事物而被编程的。

And it kind of sits there as an assumption in the brain.

它作为一种假设存在于大脑中。

And the brain is then figuring out how should it respond to this situation?

然后大脑就会弄清楚应该如何应对这种情况？

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

And if the assumption, the default, the programming is stress is bad, that's going to through our subconscious trigger all the things that's like, "Okay, well I need to rev up the things that protect me versus rev up the things that help me grow." And so that's at least how I think about it.

如果假设、默认、编程是压力是坏的，那将通过我们的潜意识触发所有类似的事情，“好吧，我需要加快保护我的事情，而不是帮助我成长的事情。”至少我是这么认为的。

And what's cool about it is that because it operates as a sort of portal, it communicates with more subconscious physiological processes, but it can also be accessed through our consciousness.

它的酷之处在于，因为它作为一种门户运行，所以它与更多潜意识的生理过程进行交流，但它也可以通过我们的意识进行访问。

So just talking about this, for your listeners, they're now invited to bring their stress mindsets up to the consciousness and say, "What is my stress mindset?

所以，只是谈论这个，对于你的听众来说，他们现在被邀请将他们的压力心态带到意识中并说：“我的压力心态是什么？

How am I thinking about stress?

我如何看待压力？

Can I reprogram that?

我可以重新编程吗？

Can I start to think about it as more enhancing?" That takes a little bit of a conscious work, potentially.

我可以开始认为它更有增强作用吗？”这可能需要一点有意识的工作。

But then once you do that, it can kind of operate in the background, influencing how your body responds.

但一旦你这样做了，它就会在后台运行，影响你的身体反应。

And you don't have to say, "Okay, I'm stressed.

你不必说：“好吧，我压力很大。

I better tell my anabolic hormones." That doesn't work that way.

我最好告诉我的合成代谢激素。”那是行不通的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

No.

不。

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

But these mindsets can help with the translational process.

但这些心态可以帮助转化过程。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I love the idea that mindsets are at the interface between the conscious and subconscious, and I think there's a lot to unpack there.

我喜欢这样的想法：心态是意识和潜意识之间的交界处，我认为那里有很多东西需要解开。

But it clearly is the case that the mindsets, they sort of act as heuristics.

但很明显，心态在某种程度上起到了启发作用。

And as we talked about earlier, they can limit the number of things to focus on.

正如我们之前谈到的，他们可以限制要关注的事情的数量。

Because one thing that is really stressful is trying to focus on everything all the time.

因为真正有压力的一件事就是试图一直专注于所有事情。

I mean, trying to navigate the public health around anything, the public health information around anything, is kind of overwhelming.

我的意思是，试图了解任何事情的公共卫生、任何事情的公共卫生信息，有点让人不知所措。

As you mentioned for stress, you see a lot, in the stresses will crush you.

正如你提到的压力，你会看到很多，压力会把你压垮。

And then you can also find evidence that stress will grow you.

然后你还可以找到证据表明压力会让你成长。

How should we, the listeners, think about stress?

作为听众，我们应该如何看待压力？

What's the most adaptive way to think about stress?

思考压力最有适应性的方式是什么？

And should we talk about our stress?

我们应该谈论我们的压力吗？

Should we not talk about our stress?

我们不应该谈论我们的压力吗？

Is there a short list of ways that we can cope with stress better?

有没有一个简短的清单可以帮助我们更好地应对压力？

I should be careful with the word cope.

我应该小心应对这个词。

Is there a way that we can leverage stress to our advantage?

有没有一种方法可以让我们利用压力来发挥我们的优势？

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

Great.

太棒了。

Yeah, and that's an important nuance in your language, which is people by and large come from a place of, "How do you manage stress?

是的，这是你们语言中一个重要的细微差别，人们总的来说来自这样的地方：“你如何管理压力？

How do you cope with it?" Which implies how do you fight against it?

你如何应对？”这意味着你如何对抗它？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Vacation, massages, yoga classes.

假期、按摩、瑜伽课程。

Yeah.

是的。

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

Fight against it or check out from it.

与之对抗或从中退出。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Exactly.

正是如此。

Exactly.

确切地。

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

And yeah, the real challenge is how do we leverage it?

是的，真正的挑战是我们如何利用它？

How do we utilize it?

我们如何利用它？

How do we work with it?

我们如何使用它？

And yeah, I have a lot of thoughts on this.

是的，我对此有很多想法。

The first and most important thing is to clarify our definition of stress.

第一件也是最重要的事情是澄清我们对压力的定义。

So I think people often associate ...

所以我认为人们经常联想...

Negative stress mindset is so insidious that now people define stress with its negative consequences.

负面压力心态是如此阴险，以至于现在人们用其负面后果来定义压力。

So the first step is to decouple that and to realize that stress is a neutral, yet-to-be-determined effect of experiencing or anticipating adversity in your goal-related efforts.

因此，第一步就是将其解耦，并认识到压力是在与目标相关的努力中经历或预期逆境时产生的中性、尚未确定的影响。

So let me unpack that a little more.

让我再稍微解开一下。

You can be in the midst of it or you could just be worried about something happening.

你可能正处于其中，也可能只是担心发生什么事。

That's one aspect.

这是一方面。

Second is adversity or challenge, so something that's working against you.

其次是逆境或挑战，所以有一些对你不利的事情。

But the third piece is critical, and that is in your goal-related efforts.

但第三部分至关重要，那就是与目标相关的努力。

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

What that means is that we only stress about things we care about, things that matter to us.

这意味着我们只强调我们关心的事情、对我们重要的事情。

So this is really important, right?

所以这真的很重要，对吧？

Because stress is linked with, it's the other side of the coin of things we care about.

因为压力与我们关心的事情的另一面有关。

And so I think that's the first thing to realize that as humans, we stress because we care, and we don't stress about things we don't care about.

所以我认为首先要认识到，作为人类，我们感到压力是因为我们关心，而我们不会为我们不关心的事情感到压力。

So the simplified example I like to use is, if Johnny was failing school, that wouldn't stress you out unless Johnny was your son, or you were Johnny, or you really cared about the educating the Johnny's of the world.

所以我喜欢用的简化例子是，如果约翰尼学业不及格，那不会给你带来压力，除非约翰尼是你的儿子，或者你就是约翰尼，或者你真的关心教育世界上的约翰尼。

It only becomes stressful to the extent that you care about it.

只有当你关心它时，它才会变得有压力。

So why are we trying to fight, or run away, or hide, or merely cope with our stress, or overcome it through our massages when the stress is connected to the things we care about?

那么，当压力与我们关心的事情有关时，为什么我们要试图战斗、逃跑、隐藏，或者只是应对压力，或者通过按摩克服压力呢？

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

So then the question becomes, "Okay, if that's true, how can I better utilize, or leverage, or respond to the inevitable stresses that we're going to experience?" I'm not saying go out and seek out more stress.

那么问题就变成了，“好吧，如果这是真的，我怎样才能更好地利用、利用或应对我们将要经历的不可避免的压力呢？”我并不是说出去寻找更多的压力。

What I am saying is that you're going to experience stress if you have any cares, or values, or passions, and most all of us do.

我的意思是，如果你有任何关心、价值观或激情，你就会感受到压力，而我们大多数人都是如此。

And so then what do you do?

那么你该怎么办呢？

And we've developed a three-step approach to adopting a "stress is enhancing" mindset.

我们制定了一个三步走的方法来采用“压力增强”的心态。

And briefly, it's the first step is to just acknowledge that you're stressed, to own it, see it, be mindful of it.

简而言之，第一步就是承认你有压力，承认它，看到它，留心它。

The second step is to welcome it.

第二步是欢迎它。

Why would you welcome it?

为什么你会欢迎它？

You welcome it because inherently in that stress is something you care about.

你欢迎它，因为这种压力本质上是你关心的事情。

So you're using it as an opportunity to reconnect to "What is it that I care about here?" And then the third step is to utilize the stress response to achieve the thing that you care about, not spend your time, money, effort, energy, trying to get rid of the stress.

因此，您可以利用它作为重新连接“我在这里关心什么？”的机会。第三步是利用压力反应来实现你关心的事情，而不是花费你的时间、金钱、努力、精力来试图摆脱压力。

Does that make sense?

这有道理吗？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Makes sense and I love it.

有道理，我喜欢它。

As somebody whose laboratory studies the physiological effects of stress, the effects that impress me the most are, for instance, the narrowing of visual attention that then drives a capacity to parse time more finely, which then drives the capacity to process information faster.

作为实验室研究压力生理影响的人，给我印象最深的影响是，例如，视觉注意力的缩小，从而提高了更精细地解析时间的能力，从而提高了更快地处理信息的能力。

It's almost like a superpower.

这几乎就像一个超级大国。

And yes, it can feel uncomfortable often, but I love the idea that acknowledging it, embracing it, and then understanding its power and leveraging that power.

是的，它经常让人感到不舒服，但我喜欢承认它、拥抱它，然后理解它的力量并利用它的力量。

What I like so much about that framework is that the stress response is very generic.

我非常喜欢这个框架的一点是它的压力反应非常通用。

Unlike the relaxation response, we don't actually have to train up the stress response.

与放松反应不同，我们实际上不需要训练压力反应。

So we all kind of get this as a freebie, and then it sounds like it's a question of what we end up doing with that.

所以我们都把它当作免费赠品，然后听起来就像我们最终用它做什么的问题。

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

Right.

对。

And Hans Cellier, father of stress, said himself, "It's a nonspecific response." So it occurs; it's what you're doing with it.

压力之父汉斯·塞利尔 (Hans Cellier) 自己说：“这是一种非特异性反应。”所以它发生了；这就是你正在用它做的事情。

It's how you're channeling it.

这就是你引导它的方式。

Yeah.

是的。

Like we talked about before, what most people do is they stress about the stress, which then overexacerbates it.

就像我们之前谈到的那样，大多数人所做的就是对压力感到紧张，然后过度加剧压力。

Or they check out from the stress, which leads to depression and anhedonia.

或者他们因为压力而感到沮丧，从而导致抑郁和快感缺乏。

Because by checking out from stress, you're also checking out from the things we care about.

因为通过摆脱压力，你也摆脱了我们关心的事情。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And substance abuse.

和药物滥用。

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

Exactly.

正是如此。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Our colleague Anna Lembke, who we had the good fortune of having as a guest on this podcast, talked a lot about this.

我们有幸邀请到我们的同事安娜·伦布克（Anna Lembke）作为本播客的嘉宾，她对此谈了很多。

That so much of substance abuse, because she runs the addiction clinic over on the med side of campus, it takes over people's lives because of this increased ability to find a solution to the stress that then eventually becomes its own stressor and its own problem.

如此多的药物滥用，因为她在校园的医学区经营成瘾诊所，它占据了人们的生活，因为找到压力解决方案的能力增强，最终成为压力源和问题。

Well, I love that mindset and framework.

嗯，我喜欢这种心态和框架。

I'd love for you to tell us just a bit about what you're up to right now and what's most exciting to you now, if you are able or willing to talk about some of the work that's on the way.

如果您能够或愿意谈论一些正在进行的工作，我希望您能告诉我们一些您现在在做什么以及对您来说最令人兴奋的事情。

I saw a brief mention of something on your publication's website of a paper about influencers, online influencers and nutrition.

我在你们出版物的网站上看到一篇关于影响者、在线影响者和营养的论文的简短提及。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

That might not be the main thrust of what you're up to, but if you're able to tell us about it, sort of interesting, given that a lot of the communication in and around this podcast takes place through social media.

这可能不是你要做的事情的主要目的，但如果你能告诉我们这件事，那就有点有趣了，因为这个播客中和周围的很多交流都是通过社交媒体进行的。

And I've kind of launched into this landscape now where I'm constantly bombarded with health information and influencers, a term I didn't even know until couple-

我现在已经进入了这样的境地，我不断地受到健康信息和影响者的轰炸，这个词我什至直到夫妇才知道——

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

You are one.

你是其中之一。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Well, one could argue one way or the other.

好吧，人们可以以一种或另一种方式争论。

So what is the deal with influencers?

那么与有影响力的人有什么关系呢？

Are they doing something good for health information, or are they ruining the landscape?

他们是在做有益于健康信息的事情，还是在破坏景观？

And don't try and protect my feelings because I now know that stress is actually an asset.

不要试图保护我的感受，因为我现在知道压力实际上是一种资产。

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

Yes.

是的。

Well, that work is part of a body of work that we've been venturing into, which is to understand, where do these mindsets come from.

嗯，这项工作是我们一直在尝试的一系列工作的一部分，即了解这些心态从何而来。

And I mentioned public health entities as one source of, say, our mindsets about stress.

我提到公共卫生实体是我们关于压力的心态的来源之一。

But I think that our mindsets are influenced by four different sources.

但我认为我们的心态受到四个不同来源的影响。

First is our upbringing, how our parents talked about things like when we're stressed, or food, or other things.

首先是我们的成长经历，我们的父母如何谈论我们有压力时、食物或其他事情。

Second is culture and media.

其次是文化和媒体。

So movies, podcasts, and now social media.

电影、播客，现在还有社交媒体。

Third is influential others, so what doctors say to us, or close friends or peers.

第三是有影响力的其他人，比如医生对我们、亲密的朋友或同事说的话。

And fourth is your conscious choice.

第四是你有意识的选择。

So we talked about that a little.

所以我们谈了一点。

We as humans have the ability to be mindful of and to change our mindsets.

作为人类，我们有能力留意并改变我们的心态。

But the social media and influencer stuff has been in part an attempt to understand, where do our mindsets about things like healthy foods come from.

但社交媒体和影响者的东西在一定程度上是试图了解我们对健康食品等事物的看法从何而来。

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

And Brad Turnwald, who is a former grad student in my lab, has done a series of really interesting studies on this, showing that if you rate the nutritional quality of the top grossing movies in the last 20 years, or you look at the Instagram accounts of all the most influential people on Instagram, and you analyze the nutrition content of what they're eating, what he's shown is that, depending on the study, 70 to 90% of those movies or influencers would fail the legal standards for advertising in the U.K. So they're putting out their nutrition contents that are, maybe not surprisingly, but undeniably unhealthy.

我实验室的前研究生布拉德·特恩瓦尔德（Brad Turnwald）对此做了一系列非常有趣的研究，表明如果你对过去 20 年来最卖座的电影的营养质量进行评估，或者你查看 Instagram 上所有最有影响力的人物的 Instagram 帐户，并分析他们所吃的食物的营养成分，他所展示的是，根据研究，70% 到 90% 的这些电影或有影响力的人将不符合广告的法律标准。英国因此他们公布的营养成分可能并不令人惊讶，但不可否认的是不健康的。

And to me that's interesting and important.

对我来说这很有趣也很重要。

It shows that, where are we getting this mindset that those unhealthy foods are pleasurable, desirable.

它表明，我们从哪里得到这样的心态：那些不健康的食物是令人愉悦的、令人向往的。

Maybe even more interesting than that is some of the work that he and others in our lab have done to show that the ways people are talking about the foods they're eating really matter too.

也许比这更有趣的是他和我们实验室的其他人所做的一些工作，这些工作表明人们谈论他们所吃的食物的方式也确实很重要。

So generally what we found is that when people talk about unhealthy foods, they use language that connotes a sense of excitement, fun, sexiness, danger, indulgence, basically anything good and desirable.

一般来说，我们发现，当人们谈论不健康食品时，他们使用的语言意味着兴奋、有趣、性感、危险、放纵，基本上是任何美好和令人向往的东西。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

This would be like cookies, cakes, high sugar-

这就像饼干、蛋糕、高糖——

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

Sorry, yeah.

抱歉，是的。

Sorry.

对不起。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

just really unhealthy-

只是真的不健康-

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

Truly unhealthy foods or, yeah, that's actually ...

真正不健康的食物，或者，是的，那实际上是......

the objective ...

目标...

what health means is challenging.

健康意味着具有挑战性。

But yeah, high fat, high sugar.

但是，高脂肪、高糖。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I think there's pretty good agreement now that excessive sugar isn't good.

我认为现在人们已经达成共识，过量的糖不好。

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

And highly processed.

并且经过高度加工。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah, highly processed, excessive sugar.

是的，高度加工，过量的糖。

I think there's general consensus.

我认为这是普遍共识。

I'm sure someone will ...

我确信有人会...

If you're going to come after anyone, come after me.

如果你要追谁，就来追我吧。

I'll stand behind that statement.

我会支持这一声明。

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

But on the other hand, when people are talking about, if they do, which healthy foods aren't portrayed in media, they aren't portrayed by influencers, rarely ever.

但另一方面，当人们谈论哪些健康食品没有在媒体上出现时（如果他们这样做的话），有影响力的人很少会报道它们。

And when they are, they're often talked about with language that conveys a sense of deprivation.

当他们出现时，人们常常会用传达一种被剥夺感的语言来谈论他们。

It's nutritious, but it's sort of boring.

虽然很有营养，但是有点无聊。

It's bland, it's-

很平淡，是——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Recovering from the holidays.

从假期中恢复过来。

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

...

...

less tasty.

不太好吃。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It's sort of the postholiday reset.

这有点像节后重置。

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

Exactly.

正是如此。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right.

对。

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

And this is really important because you're doing all this work, and others are doing all this work trying to inform people about what actually is good for them.

这非常重要，因为您正在做所有这些工作，而其他人正在做所有这些工作，试图告诉人们什么实际上对他们有好处。

And meanwhile, there's this hurricane, a force that's telling people, that's seeping into our minds that, "Sure, those might be good for you, but those foods are not fun, or sexy, or indulgent, or desirable in any way, shape or form." And it's also paid advertising for fast foods and sugary beverages, and other things.

与此同时，有一股飓风，一种力量告诉人们，它正在渗透到我们的脑海中：“当然，这些食物可能对你有好处，但这些食物一点也不有趣、不性感、不放纵，也不以任何方式、形状或形式令人向往。”它还为快餐、含糖饮料和其他东西提供付费广告。

So it's not surprising that we have this mindset that healthy foods are the less desirable thing to eat because of those cultural and social forces.

因此，我们有这样一种心态，即由于这些文化和社会力量，健康食品是不太受欢迎的东西，这并不奇怪。

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

What our work has just tried to do was to reveal that, quantify it as a way to say, all right, let's maybe be a little bit more mindful about how we talk about healthy foods, and if you're a movie producer, can you be a little bit more mindful to showcase healthy and delicious foods, and have the characters talk about them in ways that are more appealing?

我们的工作试图做的就是揭示这一点，将其量化为一种方式，好吧，让我们更加注意如何谈论健康食品，如果你是电影制片人，你能更加注意展示健康和美味的食物，并让角色以更有吸引力的方式谈论它们吗？

There's a lot of room for people who produce this content to have an impact, not just on what people do, but what they think about the foods they're eating.

制作这些内容的人有很大的影响空间，不仅影响人们的行为，还影响他们对所吃食物的看法。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

That's really interesting.

这真的很有趣。

I hadn't thought about it until now, but it makes sense that any food that's packaged and can be sold can be woven into a film or promoted by a celebrity influencer, not a health influencer per se, but a celebrity influencer because they'll get paid, right?

直到现在我才想到这一点，但任何包装和出售的食品都可以编入电影或由名人影响者推广，而不是健康影响者本身，而是名人影响者，因为他们会得到报酬，这是有道理的，对吗？

It's part of the ecosystem that allows them an income, and it feeds back on sales to the company, and-

它是生态系统的一部分，使他们能够获得收入，并反馈给公司的销售，并且-

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

just an uncommon feedback on sales to the company, whereas things that can't be commoditized, it's more difficult.

只是对公司销售的不常见反馈，而无法商品化的东西，那就更困难了。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It's hard to, whoever makes oranges and sells oranges is unlikely to promote oranges in a celebrity post or in a movie because oranges can be purchased from many, many sources.

这很难，无论是谁生产橙子并销售橙子，都不太可能在名人帖子或电影中宣传橙子，因为橙子可以从很多很多来源购买。

There's no identifiable source of oranges as there is with a packaged food, for instance.

例如，橙子没有像包装食品那样可识别的来源。

PART 3 OF 4 ENDS Alia Crum:

第 3 部分（共 4 部分）结束 Alia Crum：

Yeah.

是的。

The interesting thing we found in those studies is that it wasn't driven by promoted content or branded content.

我们在这些研究中发现的有趣的事情是，它不是由促销内容或品牌内容驱动的。

There's some of that, certainly.

当然有一些。

All of the promoted and branded content is usually for processed, high-sugar foods, but 90% or more of these foods that they were showing were not promoted or branded.

所有促销和品牌内容通常都是针对加工的高糖食品，但他们展示的这些食品中 90% 或更多都没有促销或品牌。

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

There's a lot of flexibility in what these producers or influencers could show on their media.

这些制作人或影响者可以在他们的媒体上展示很多灵活性。

Although it goes both ways.

虽然它是双向的。

It's not just the producers' and the influencers' responsibility.

这不仅仅是制作人和影响者的责任。

The public is reacting to this.

公众正在对此做出反应。

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

We showed too, that people respond more positively.

我们还表明，人们的反应更加积极。

There're more likes on posts about unhealthy foods, so it's sort of distasteful and in neck it ...

关于不健康食品的帖子有更多的点赞，所以这有点令人厌恶，而且很令人讨厌......

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

It's a distasteful culture around healthy eating and we really have a lot to do to change it.

这是一种围绕健康饮食的令人厌恶的文化，我们确实需要做很多事情来改变它。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Well, it's dopamine circuits through and through, just at the sight of some very calorie-dense, extremely tasty food drives those dopamine circuits.

嗯，这是彻头彻尾的多巴胺回路，只要看到一些热量非常高、非常美味的食物就会驱动这些多巴胺回路。

I realized that there are people out there who derive the same sort or similar levels of pleasure from healthy foods, and that's a wonderful thing if one can accomplish that.

我意识到有些人可以从健康食品中获得相同或相似程度的快乐，如果一个人能做到这一点，那就太好了。

We just need more of that, is what it sounds like.

我们只是需要更多，听起来就是这样。

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

Yeah, exactly.

是的，完全正确。

That's what's really inspiring, to me at least, is that it is possible.

至少对我来说，这才是真正鼓舞人心的，那就是这是可能的。

I mean, people think, "Oh.

我的意思是，人们会想，“哦。

Well, vegetables are just inherently less tasty than ice cream." It's like, "Well, that's not necessarily true.

嗯，蔬菜本质上不如冰淇淋好吃。”就像是，“嗯，这不一定是真的。

Also, it doesn't have to be a competition.

而且，它不一定是一场比赛。

I don't have to get my three-year-old to hate ice cream in order for her to like broccoli." There's a lot more I can be doing to help shape a more positive, approach-oriented, indulgent mindset around healthy, nutritious vegetables and fruits and other foods, in addition to having her like ice cream.

我不必让我三岁的孩子讨厌冰淇淋才能让她喜欢西兰花。”除了让她喜欢冰淇淋之外，我还可以做很多事情来帮助围绕健康、营养的蔬菜、水果和其他食物形成更积极、以方法为导向、放纵的心态。

That's totally fine.

那完全没问题。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Sounds like a really interesting study.

听起来是一项非常有趣的研究。

When it's published, please let me know and I'll ...

当它发布时，请告诉我，我会...

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

Yeah.

是的。

I think it was actually released this week-

我认为它实际上是在本周发布的-

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Oh, good.

哦，很好。

I will be sure to ...

我一定会...

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

...

...

in JAMA Internal Medicine.

在《美国医学会杂志》内科医学杂志上。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

JAMA Internal.

JAMA 内部。

Okay.

好的。

Great journal.

很棒的日记。

I will definitely talk about it on social media and elsewhere.

我肯定会在社交媒体和其他地方谈论它。

Sounds very interesting.

听起来很有趣。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

What else are you up to lately?

你最近还有什么忙吗？

My favorite question to ask any scientist or colleague, by the way, is what are you most excited about lately?

顺便说一句，我最喜欢问科学家或同事的问题是，你最近最兴奋的是什么？

What are you up late thinking about and getting up early thinking about?

你熬夜在想什么，早起在想什么？

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

Yeah.

是的。

Hands down, I think the most ...

放手吧，我认为最...

Well, I guess, there's so many things.

嗯，我想，有很多事情。

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

The thing that I'm most into right now we're doing the most work in is, I started by getting inspired by placebo effects in medicine.

我现在最感兴趣的事情是，我们正在做最多的工作，我首先受到医学中安慰剂效应的启发。

I did a long stint in placebo or belief-like effects in behavioral health, and now we're moving back into medicine.

我在行为健康方面做了很长一段时间的安慰剂或类似信念的效果，现在我们又回到医学领域。

I'm really interested in looking at how we can work with active drugs and treatments to make them better and make the experience of them better by instilling different mindsets.

我真的很感兴趣如何使用活性药物和治疗方法来改善它们，并通过灌输不同的心态来改善它们的体验。

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

One study we did along those lines, we worked with kids or undergoing treatment for food allergies.

我们按照这些思路进行了一项研究，我们与孩子一起工作或接受食物过敏的治疗。

Allergies to peanuts, for example.

例如，对花生过敏。

This was with Kari Nadeau, who's the head of the Stanford Allergy Center here.

这是斯坦福过敏中心主任卡里·纳多 (Kari Nadeau) 的发言。

She has a great treatment for food allergies.

她对食物过敏有很好的治疗方法。

Basically, kids take gradually increasing doses of the thing they're allergic to, like peanuts.

基本上，孩子们会逐渐增加他们过敏的东西的剂量，比如花生。

Over the course of six or seven months, these kids become less reactive to peanuts.

在六七个月的时间里，这些孩子对花生的反应就会减弱。

The problem with that treatment is it's really difficult because they're having all sorts of negative symptoms and side effects.

这种治疗的问题是它真的很困难，因为他们有各种各样的负面症状和副作用。

These kids are getting itchy mouth and upset stomach.

这些孩子会出现口腔发痒和胃部不适的情况。

They're puking.

他们在呕吐。

It's scary because they're literally eating the thing that they've been told might kill them.

这很可怕，因为他们实际上正在吃那些被告知可能会杀死他们的东西。

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

What we did in this study was we attempted to improve the experience and outcomes of that by reframing mindsets about the symptoms and the side effects.

我们在这项研究中所做的是，我们试图通过重新构建关于症状和副作用的心态来改善体验和结果。

As it was being conducted before, the kids were told, "Look.

正如之前进行的那样，孩子们被告知：“看。

These side effects are just an unfortunate byproduct of this treatment, and you have to sort of endure them to get through it." What we found in our conversation with Kari was that the reality of those side effects was not so negative.

这些副作用只是这种治疗的不幸的副产品，你必须忍受它们才能度过难关。”我们在与卡里的谈话中发现，这些副作用的现实情况并不那么消极。

In fact, they were mechanistically linked to the body learning how to tolerate peanuts or the allergen.

事实上，它们在机制上与身体学习如何耐受花生或过敏原有关。

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

What we did was we worked within a trial, they were all getting the treatment, but half of them were helped to see this more positive mindsets.

我们所做的是在一项试验中进行工作，他们都得到了治疗，但其中一半人得到了帮助，看到了这种更积极的心态。

That symptoms and side effects from this treatment were a positive signal that the treatment was working and their bodies were getting stronger.

这种治疗的症状和副作用是一个积极的信号，表明治疗正在发挥作用，他们的身体正在变得更强。

What we found was that that mindset led to reductions in anxiety, fewer symptoms when at the highest doses, and most interestingly of all, they had better outcomes.

我们发现，这种心态可以减少焦虑，在最高剂量时症状更少，最有趣的是，他们有更好的结果。

Based on immune markers that were a sign of the allergic tolerance, those who had this mindset throughout had better outcomes to the treatment.

根据作为过敏耐受性标志的免疫标记，那些始终持有这种心态的人可以获得更好的治疗结果。

That's just one example.

这只是一个例子。

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

I think my goal is really to move us beyond the placebo versus drug, mindset versus behavior, to get to a place where we can blend them together and maximize the benefit of these treatments.

我认为我的目标实际上是让我们超越安慰剂与药物、心态与行为的界限，到达一个可以将它们融合在一起并最大限度地发挥这些治疗效果的地方。

We're doing a lot of studies like that.

我们正在做很多这样的研究。

How can we improve treatment for cancer with different mindsets?

我们如何以不同的心态改善癌症治疗？

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

We've done some work recently with the COVID-19 vaccine, and symptoms and side effects.

我们最近对 COVID-19 疫苗、症状和副作用进行了一些研究。

That's what I'm really passionate about right now.

这就是我现在真正热衷的事情。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

That was incredible.

这太不可思议了。

I can't wait to read that study.

我迫不及待地想读那篇研究报告。

Is that one out or on the way?

那是出去还是在路上？

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Okay.

好的。

Well then, I will also read and communicate with you, and then about that study.

那我也跟大家看看交流一下，然后就是那个研究。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Who knows?

谁知道？

Maybe you would come on Instagram and do a little Instagram Live to make sure that I don't screw up the delivery, and that we can hear it direct from the person who ran the study.

也许你会在 Instagram 上进行一些 Instagram Live，以确保我不会搞砸交付，并且我们可以直接从负责这项研究的人那里听到它。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I find this issue of side effects really interesting.

我发现这个副作用问题非常有趣。

I don't take a lot of prescription drugs.

我不服用很多处方药。

But recently, I was prescribed a few.

但最近，我被开了一些。

The list of side effects is, it's incredible, and it just goes on and on and on.

副作用列表是令人难以置信的，而且它一直在持续。

I realized some of that is legal protections.

我意识到其中一些是法律保护。

It's hard for me to believe that they're actually expecting anyone to read those because you need a high-powered microscope to read this print.

我很难相信他们真的希望任何人都能阅读这些内容，因为你需要一台高倍显微镜才能阅读这份印刷品。

It's truly fine print.

这确实是精美的印刷品。

But I did realize that in reading over the side effects, one primes themselves to experience those side effects.

但我确实意识到，在阅读副作用时，人们会准备好体验这些副作用。

Now, I just rip up the side effects thing or the sheet and just throw it away.

现在，我只是撕掉副作用的东西或床单，然后把它扔掉。

I just take it as recommended.

我只是按照建议接受。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Do you think it works in the other direction too, where if an effective medication is supposed to have result A, B, or C, and you are told again and again how effective it is for that treatment, that it could amplify the effect?

您是否认为它也适用于另一个方向，即如果一种有效的药物应该具有 A、B 或 C 的结果，并且您一次又一次地被告知该治疗有多有效，那么它可以放大效果吗？

In other words, it's not strictly a placebo, it's not nocebo, as you described before.

换句话说，它不是严格意义上的安慰剂，也不是反安慰剂，正如您之前所描述的那样。

Perhaps at a lower dose, a given medication could have an amplified effect, or at an appropriate dose, if you will, it could have a superphysiological effect.

也许在较低的剂量下，给定的药物可能会产生放大的效果，或者在适当的剂量下，如果你愿意的话，它可能会产生超生理效应。

Has that ever been demonstrated?

这有被证明过吗？

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

To some degree.

在某种程度上。

I think where it gets tricky is for a long time, people thought the effects of placebos were expectancy based.

我认为棘手的是长期以来，人们认为安慰剂的效果是基于预期的。

You expect to get a benefit, and that benefit occurs.

你期望获得好处，而这种好处就会发生。

There's certainly some truth to that, but I think the mindset approach is more powerful because it helps us understand the mechanisms.

这当然有一定道理，但我认为心态方法更强大，因为它可以帮助我们理解机制。

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

If you just expect that your blood pressure will go down, what are the mechanisms through which that expectation would lead to your blood pressure going down?

如果您只是期望血压会下降，那么这种期望会通过哪些机制导致您的血压下降？

It's hard to even understand that.

甚至很难理解这一点。

But if you have the mindset that you're in good hands, that this is being taken care of, this illness is not going to kill you.

但如果你有这样的心态：你得到了良好的照顾，这一切都得到了照顾，那么这种疾病就不会杀死你。

You're being treated well.

你受到很好的待遇。

Then you can start to unpack the mechanisms through which blood pressure could be relieved.

然后你就可以开始解开缓解血压的机制。

Maybe it's anxiety reduction, maybe it's changing, sort of, anticipation or the prioritization of what the body needs to focus on.

也许是减少焦虑，也许是改变身体需要关注的事情的预期或优先顺序。

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

I really think that the work of the future needs to be on getting more sophisticated about what is the mindset that we're instilling when we say something will work or it won't work, and how do we understand the mechanisms through which that changes physiology.

我真的认为未来的工作需要更加复杂地了解当我们说某件事会起作用或不起作用时我们所灌输的心态是什么，以及我们如何理解改变生理学的机制。

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

To answer your question, I think that that could be true, but it depends on what actually is the mindset you're evoking.

为了回答你的问题，我认为这可能是真的，但这取决于你真正唤起的心态是什么。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I know you're a parent, and to the other parents out there, but also the kids and people who don't have kids, what is the best way to learn and teach mindsets?

我知道你是一位家长，对于其他家长，还有孩子和没有孩子的人来说，学习和教授心态的最佳方法是什么？

I mean, clearly a conversation like this informs me and many other people out there about mindsets and how we can adopt them.

我的意思是，显然这样的对话让我和其他许多人了解了心态以及我们如何采用它们。

It also seems to me that if we have the opportunity to teach mindsets and really cultivate certain mindsets, the world would be a much better place.

在我看来，如果我们有机会教授心态并真正培养某些心态，世界将会变得更加美好。

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

How does one go about that, given that kids and we are all being bombarded with conflicting information all the time?

鉴于孩子们和我们都一直受到相互矛盾的信息的轰炸，我们该如何解决这一问题呢？

How do we anchor to a mindset?

我们如何锚定心态？

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

Yeah.

是的。

You're getting at my other major passion right now, which is what we're calling in our lab Meta Mindset.

您现在正在了解我的另一个主要热情，这就是我们在实验室中所说的“元心态”。

I'm working on this with Chris Evans and others, and that is, how do we consciously and deliberately change our mindsets?

我正在与克里斯·埃文斯和其他人一起研究这个问题，即我们如何有意识地、有意识地改变我们的心态？

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

The first step is really simple, and that's just to be aware that you have them.

第一步非常简单，就是要意识到你拥有它们。

That the world, your beliefs aren't sort of an unmitigated reflection of reality as it objectively is.

这个世界，你的信仰并不是客观地反映现实的。

They are filtered through our interpretations, our expectations, our frameworks, and simplifications of that reality.

它们通过我们的解释、我们的期望、我们的框架以及对现实的简化来过滤。

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

Your work and, as you know so well, most of what goes on in our brain is an interpretation of reality.

你的工作，以及你所熟知的，我们大脑中发生的大部分事情都是对现实的解释。

Mindsets are just the simplified core assumptions about things.

心态只是对事物的简化核心假设。

The first step is to realize that we have them.

第一步是意识到我们拥有它们。

The second step is to start to think about what the effects of those mindsets are on your life to sort of play out the story.

第二步是开始思考这些心态对你的生活有什么影响，以演绎这个故事。

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

Okay.

好的。

I have this mindset that stress is debilitating.

我有这样的心态：压力会使人衰弱。

How is that making me feel?

这让我感觉如何？

What is that leading me to do?

这引导我做什么？

Is this mindset helpful or harmful?

这种心态是有益还是有害？

The question isn't, "Is the mindset right or wrong?" Because you can find evidence for or against it.

问题不是“这种心态是对还是错？”因为你可以找到支持或反对它的证据。

We can fight about it till we're exhausted.

我们可以为此争吵，直到筋疲力尽为止。

The question is, "Is it helpful or harmful?" Then you can go about seeking out ways to adopt more useful mindsets.

问题是“它是有益还是有害？”然后你就可以寻找方法来采用更有用的心态。

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

We've been doing a lot of work on how to actually do that.

我们已经做了很多工作来研究如何真正做到这一点。

How do you consciously change it?

如何有意识地改变它？

Sometimes, it's really simple.

有时，这真的很简单。

I think in cases where we don't have a lot of prior experience, like the kids with allergies who are getting treatment, they didn't have any other mindsets about symptoms.

我认为，在我们之前没有太多经验的情况下，比如正在接受治疗的过敏儿童，他们对症状没有任何其他心态。

We just got the luxury of setting it.

我们刚刚得到了设置它的奢侈。

When it comes to healthy food, it's harder to change people's mindsets because we have a lot of baggage weighing us down.

当谈到健康食品时，改变人们的心态比较困难，因为我们有很多包袱压在我们身上。

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

As a parent, for me, I guess my number one piece of advice is to lighten up trying to get your kids to do certain things, and focus more on helping them to adopt more adaptive mindsets.

作为一名家长，对我来说，我想我的第一条建议是放松地尝试让你的孩子做某些事情，并更多地专注于帮助他们采取更具适应性的心态。

I'm by no means an expert at this, but I'm just testing it with my own child real-time.

我绝不是这方面的专家，但我只是用我自己的孩子实时测试它。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Real-time.

实时。

That's the real kind of experiment.

这才是真正的实验。

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

Yeah.

是的。

It's, how do I resist the urge to force my child to eat her dinner so that she can have her dessert?

问题是，我如何抵制强迫我的孩子吃晚餐以便她吃甜点的冲动？

Because that's the real urge.

因为这才是真正的冲动。

"No, you need to do that."

“不，你需要这样做。”

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Negotiating.

谈判中。

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

When you start thinking about it in terms of mindset, you've realized, "Oh, that's just reinforcing to her that the dessert is the exciting, fun thing to have.

当你开始从心态上思考这个问题时，你就会意识到，“哦，这只是强化了她的想法，甜点是令人兴奋、有趣的东西。

This thing that I have to do must be horrible.

我要做的这件事一定很可怕。

So horrible that they're kind of forcing me to do it."

太可怕了，他们强迫我这么做。”

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

It's letting go a little bit of the behavior, the objective reality, really thinking about the subjective reality, and focusing on adaptive mindsets.

它是放弃一点行为、客观现实，真正思考主观现实，并专注于适应性思维。

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

My goal as a parent has been to try to help her instill a healthy mindset about eating.

作为父母，我的目标是努力帮助她灌输健康的饮食观念。

That healthy foods are indulgent and delicious.

健康食品既美味又美味。

That the experience of stress is inevitable.

压力的经历是不可避免的。

It's natural, and that going through stressful experience can help her learn, grow, and become a more connected and happier individual.

这是很自然的，经历压力经历可以帮助她学习、成长，并成为一个更人性化、更快乐的人。

With exercise and physical activity, we haven't really gotten to that yet, but we will with time.

通过锻炼和身体活动，我们还没有真正做到这一点，但随着时间的推移我们会做到这一点。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

It's great.

这很棒。

I wrote down and I'm going to keep this in the front of my mind going forward, to continually ask what is the effect of my mindset about X.

我写下了这一点，并且今后我将把它牢记在心，不断地问我对 X 的心态有何影响。

Just to evaluate that about exercise, about food, about school, about stress, about relationships, about relationship to self, et cetera.

只是为了评估关于锻炼、关于食物、关于学校、关于压力、关于人际关系、关于与自我的关系等等。

To really think about that in a series of layers.

要在一系列层面上真正思考这一点。

You think that would be a useful exercise?

你认为这会是一个有用的练习吗？

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

Definitely.

绝对是。

You know and your work speaks to this.

你知道，你的工作也说明了这一点。

I mean the mindful, it's not ...

我说的是正念，不是...

I would really urge against people getting dogmatic about their mindset also, like, "Oh, I need to have the right mindset.

我真的强烈反对人们对自己的心态变得教条，比如，“哦，我需要有正确的心态。

If I don't have the right mind ...

如果我没有正确的心态...

" it's like, okay.

“就像，好吧。

Mindset is a piece of the puzzle.

心态是拼图的一部分。

It's a piece of the puzzle that's really empowering because we have access to it and we can change it, but it is just one piece of a puzzle.

这是真正赋予我们力量的拼图的一部分，因为我们可以访问它并且可以改变它，但这只是拼图的一小部分。

Treat yourself like a scientist.

像科学家一样对待自己。

Look at your life, look at your mindsets.

看看你的生活，看看你的心态。

See what's serving you, see what isn't.

看看什么对你有用，看看什么对你没有用。

Find more useful, adaptive, empowering mindsets, and live by those.

寻找更有用、更具适应性、更赋权的心态，并以此为生。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Love it.

喜欢它。

Now, in one version of this kind of discussion, I would've asked the question I'm going to ask next at the beginning, but I'm going to ask it now close to the end, which is, you're a unique constellation of accomplishments and attributes.

现在，在这种讨论的一个版本中，我会在开始时问我接下来要问的问题，但我现在要在接近尾声时问这个问题，那就是，你是一个独特的成就和属性星座。

I only know a subset of them, of course, because today's the first time that we've met in person, even though I've known your work for a long time, and we're colleagues across campus.

当然，我只认识其中的一小部分，因为今天是我们第一次面对面见面，尽管我很早就了解你的工作，而且我们是校园里的同事。

You run your laboratory, where you do research.

你经营你的实验室，在那里你进行研究。

You were also an athlete in university, a serious athlete, and then you're also a clinical psychologist.

你在大学时也是一名运动员，一名认真的运动员，然后你也是一名临床心理学家。

Is that right?

是这样吗？

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

I was trained as a clinical psychologist, so my PhD is in Clinical Psychology.

我接受过临床心理学家培训，所以我的博士学位是临床心理学。

I did all my pre and post internships with stress and trauma.

我在实习前和实习后都承受着压力和创伤。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Do you see patients or did you see patients at the time?

你看病人吗？或者你当时看病人吗？

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

I did.

我做到了。

Yes.

是的。

I don't anymore.

我不再这样了

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Okay.

好的。

That's a very unique constellation of practitioner and researcher.

这是一个非常独特的从业者和研究者群体。

What are the mindsets that you try and adopt on a regular basis as a consequence, or in relation to those things?

因此，您经常尝试并采取哪些心态，或者与这些事情相关？

Sort of athlete, researcher, clinician?

运动员、研究员、临床医生之类的？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

For yourself, as you move through life, do you have an overarching mindset that all challenge is good, or do you have any kind of central mindsets that help you navigate through?

对于你自己来说，当你在生活中前进时，你是否有一种总体心态，即所有挑战都是好的，或者你是否有任何一种中心心态可以帮助你渡过难关？

It has to be a pretty complex set of daily routines, given everything that you juggle.

考虑到你要处理的所有事情，这必须是一套相当复杂的日常事务。

I think that people like you are unique, that you have the inside knowledge of how this stuff works, and you've also existed in these different domains.

我认为像你这样的人是独一无二的，你拥有这些东西如何工作的内部知识，并且你也存在于这些不同的领域。

I know a lot of listeners have a more athletic slant to their life, or a more cognitive, or some are raising kids, or some people are just doing any number of things.

我知道很多听众对他们的生活有更多的运动倾向，或者更具认知性，或者有些人正在抚养孩子，或者有些人只是在做很多事情。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

This is where I think it would be useful for people to hear.

我认为这对人们来说是有用的。

What do you do?

你做什么工作？

This is what I'm asking.

这就是我要问的。

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

Yeah.

是的。

Well, it's certainly true in my case that research is me-search.

嗯，就我而言，研究就是自我探索，这确实是正确的。

Everything that I study as an intellectual has come from my own experience or my own failings.

作为一个知识分子，我所研究的一切都来自于我自己的经历或我自己的失败。

When I was really intensely exercising and training, those were the questions I asked; when I was dealing with eating and concerns about my weight, those were the questions I asked; when I was stressed about my dissertation, I decided to do my dissertation on stress.

当我真正进行剧烈运动和训练时，我会问这些问题；当我处理饮食和担心体重时，我会问这些问题；当我对我的论文感到压力时，我决定以压力为主题来完成我的论文。

Now, I think, we're in the midst of a global pandemic.

我认为现在我们正处于全球大流行之中。

How can our mindsets be useful here?

我们的心态在这里如何发挥作用？

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

I don't think there's an obvious answer to your question other than the guiding light for me has been an undercurrent of understanding that our mindsets matter.

我认为你的问题没有一个明显的答案，除了对我来说，指导思想是理解我们的心态很重要的暗流。

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

I think I got that very clearly and deeply as a child, both through my experiences as an athlete.

我想我小时候就通过作为运动员的经历非常清楚和深刻地认识到了这一点。

I know many of your listeners are athletes.

我知道你的许多听众都是运动员。

Any athlete knows that you can be the same physical being from one day to the next, one moment to the next, and perform completely differently just depending on what you're thinking.

任何运动员都知道，你可能日复一日、时时刻刻都保持着同样的身体状态，但表现却完全不同，这取决于你的想法。

I was a gymnast growing up.

我从小就是一名体操运动员。

If you can't visualize, if you can't see something in your mind, you have no chance when you get up there on the balance beam.

如果你无法想象，如果你无法在脑海中看到某些东西，那么当你站在平衡木上时你就没有机会。

Also, my father was a martial artist, a teacher of meditation, so this kind of mind-body work was baked into me from an early age.

而且，我的父亲是一位武术家，一位冥想老师，所以这种身心训练从小就融入了我的内心。

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

I think what I've done recently is to try to understand it scientifically, and more importantly, to figure out how can we do better with this?

我想我最近所做的就是尝试科学地理解它，更重要的是弄清楚我们如何才能做得更好？

We're all talking about AI taking over the world, technology this, and personalized medicine that.

我们都在谈论人工智能接管世界，技术这个，个性化医疗那个。

It's like we have done so little, relatively so little with the human resource, our human brains.

就好像我们在人力资源、人类大脑方面做得很少，相对来说也很少。

The potential for which is so great.

其潜力是如此之大。

We've done almost nothing.

我们几乎什么也没做。

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

Take the placebo effect.

采取安慰剂效应。

We know a lot about what it is.

我们对它是什么了解很多。

We've done almost nothing to leverage that in medicine, consciously and deliberately.

我们几乎没有采取任何行动来有意识地、刻意地在医学中利用这一点。

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

What keeps me going, what gets me through the hard times is just that burning question of, "What is going on here and what more can I do with the power of my mind?"

是什么让我继续前进，是什么让我度过困难时期，就是那个紧迫的问题：“这里发生了什么事，我还能用我的思想的力量做些什么？”

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Well, I and millions of other people are so grateful that you do this work.

嗯，我和其他数百万人非常感激你们所做的这项工作。

It's so important, and it's truly unique.

它非常重要，而且确实是独一无二的。

Tell us where people can learn more about your research, where they can find you online.

告诉我们人们可以在哪里了解有关您的研究的更多信息，在哪里可以在线找到您。

I'm going to try and persuade you to take more of a social media presence going forward.

我将尝试说服您今后更多地关注社交媒体。

Whether or not I succeed in that effort or not, where can people find you, ask questions, find your papers, learn more?

无论我的努力是否成功，人们可以在哪里找到你、提出问题、找到你的论文、了解更多信息？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I'd love to have you back for a conversation in the future, but in the meantime.

我希望您将来能回来谈话，但在此期间。

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

Yeah.

是的。

No. Really, it's been such an honor getting to chat with you.

不，真的，很荣幸能和你聊天。

You have such an impact on the world and I look forward ...

你对世界有如此大的影响，我期待着......

I hope we can do some science together also.

我希望我们也能一起做一些科学。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Absolutely.

绝对的。

Absolutely.

绝对地。

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

Yeah.

是的。

Well, all our papers, materials, and interventions are housed on our website, mbl.stanford.edu.

嗯，我们所有的论文、材料和干预措施都存放在我们的网站 mbl.stanford.edu 上。

We also have a link there too that takes you to Stanford SPARQ, which stands for Social Psychological Answers to Real-World Questions.

我们也有一个链接，可带您访问斯坦福 SPARQ，它代表现实世界问题的社会心理学答案。

We have a lot of toolkits on that website, including a toolkit for this Rethink Stress approach of acknowledging, welcoming, and utilizing your stress.

我们在该网站上有很多工具包，包括用于承认、欢迎和利用压力的重新思考压力方法的工具包。

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

I guess I'm on Twitter, AliaCrum.

我想我在 Twitter 上，AliaCrum。

I don't do much there, but maybe I will start to.

我在那里做的不多，但也许我会开始做。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Well, those are all great resources.

嗯，这些都是很棒的资源。

We will provide links to all of those for our listeners and viewers.

我们将为听众和观众提供所有这些内容的链接。

I also hope to convince you to write a book or many books in the future.

我也希望说服你将来写一本书或多本书。

The world needs to know about this.

世界需要了解这一点。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Thank you so much for taking time out of your exceedingly busy schedule to talk to us about these ideas.

非常感谢您在百忙之中抽出时间与我们谈论这些想法。

I learned so much.

我学到了很多。

I'm going to definitely think about, what is the effect of my mindset about blank on every category of life?

我肯定会思考，我对空白的心态对生活的各个方面有何影响？

Really just, on behalf of everybody and myself, thank you so much.

真的，我代表大家和我自己，非常感谢你们。

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

Yeah.

是的。

Thank you.

谢谢。

I guess I just want to end by saying, I think this work is really the tip of the iceberg of what can and should be done.

我想最后我只想说，我认为这项工作实际上只是可以做和应该做的事情的冰山一角。

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

I really invite you, your listeners and all.

我真诚地邀请您、您的听众和所有人。

Anybody who's inspired by this work.

任何受到这项工作启发的人。

If they want to share stories or want to partner on a collaboration, to please reach out.

如果他们想分享故事或想要合作，请联系我们。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Great.

太棒了。

Well, the comment section on YouTube is a great place to do that as well.

嗯，YouTube 上的评论部分也是一个很好的地方。

You will hear from them.

您会收到他们的来信。

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

Great.

太棒了。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right.

对。

Great.

伟大的。

Thank you so much, Ali.

非常感谢你，阿里。

Alia Crum:

阿莉亚·克拉姆：

Thank you.

谢谢你。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Thank you for joining me for my conversation with Dr. Alia Crum.

感谢您参加我与 Alia Crum 博士的对话。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I'm guessing by now, you can appreciate the enormous impact that mindsets have on our biology, our psychology, and how those interact at the level of mind and body.

我猜现在你已经可以体会到心态对我们的生物学、心理学以及它们如何在身心层面相互作用的巨大影响。

If you'd like to learn more about Dr. Crum's work, and perhaps even be a research subject in one of their upcoming studies on mindsets, you can go to mbl.stanford.edu.

如果您想了解更多关于 Crum 博士的工作，甚至可能成为他们即将进行的一项关于心态的研究的研究对象，您可以访问 mbl.stanford.edu。

There, you will also see a tab for Support, where if you like, you can make a tax-deductible donation to support the incredible research that Dr. Crum and her colleagues are doing.

在那里，您还会看到一个“支持”选项卡，如果您愿意，您可以在其中进行免税捐赠，以支持 Crum 博士和她的同事正在进行的令人难以置信的研究。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

If you're learning from and/or enjoying the Huberman Lab podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel.

如果您正在学习和/或享受 Huberman Lab 播客，请订阅我们的 YouTube 频道。

That's a terrific zero-cost way to support us.

这是支持我们的绝佳零成本方式。

In addition, please subscribe to us on Apple and Spotify.

此外，请在 Apple 和 Spotify 上订阅我们。

On Apple, you have the opportunity to leave us up to a five-star review.

在 Apple 上，您有机会给我们留下五星级的评价。

On YouTube, you also have the opportunity to leave us questions and comments in the comment section below any of the episodes.

在 YouTube 上，您还有机会在任意剧集下方的评论部分向我们提出问题和评论。

You can also make suggestions about future guests that you'd like us to host on the Huberman Lab podcast.

您还可以对您希望我们在 Huberman Lab 播客上接待的未来嘉宾提出建议。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Please also check out our sponsors, mentioned at the beginning of this episode.

另请查看本集开头提到的我们的赞助商。

That's the best way to support this podcast.

这是支持这个播客的最佳方式。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

If you're not already following us on Instagram and on Twitter, we are Huberman Lab at both Instagram and Twitter.

如果您还没有在 Instagram 和 Twitter 上关注我们，我们是 Instagram 和 Twitter 上的 Huberman Lab。

There, I teach neuroscience in short form.

在那里，我以简短的形式教授神经科学。

Sometimes videos, sometimes text slides.

有时是视频，有时是文本幻灯片。

Some of that information overlaps with what you find on the podcast.

其中一些信息与您在播客上找到的信息重叠。

Some of it is distinct from what you find on the podcast.

其中一些内容与您在播客上找到的内容不同。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

In closing, I'd like to thank you once again for joining me for my discussion about mindsets with Dr. Alia Crum.

最后，我要再次感谢您与我一起与 Alia Crum 博士讨论心态。

As always, thank you for your interest in science.

一如既往，感谢您对科学的兴趣。

PART 4 OF 4 ENDS

第 4 部分（共 4 部分）结束